THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES 

PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE 

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION 

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH 

convenes the 

THIRTY-THIRD MEETING 

ADVISORY BOARD ON 

RADIATION AND WORKER HEALTH 

VOL. II 

DAY ONE 

ABRWH BOARD MEETING
 

The verbatim transcript of the 

Meeting of the Advisory Board on Radiation and 

Worker Health held at the Knoxville Marriott, 

Knoxville, Tennessee, on October 17, 2005. 
 

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C O N T E N T S 

October 17, 2005 

WELCOME AND OPENING COMMENTS 

DR. PAUL ZIEMER, CHAIR 

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GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT 8 

COURT REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE 39 
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TRANSCRIPT LEGEND 

The following transcript contains quoted material. Such 

material is reproduced as read or spoken. 

In the following transcript: a dash (--) indicates 

an unintentional or purposeful interruption of a 

sentence. An ellipsis (. . .) indicates halting speech 

or an unfinished sentence in dialogue or omission(s) of 

word(s) when reading written material. 

-- (sic) denotes an incorrect usage or pronunciation 

of a word which is transcribed in its original form as 

reported. 

-- (phonetically) indicates a phonetic spelling of 

the word if no confirmation of the correct spelling is 

available. 

-- "uh-huh" represents an affirmative response, and 

"uh-uh" represents a negative response. 

-- "*" denotes a spelling based on phonetics, 

without reference available. 

-- (inaudible)/ (unintelligible) signifies speaker 

failure, usually failure to use a microphone. 
 

 

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 P A R T I C I P A N T S 

(By Group, in Alphabetical Order) 

BOARD MEMBERS 

CHAIR 

ZIEMER, Paul L., Ph.D.

Professor Emeritus 

School of Health Sciences 

Purdue University

Lafayette, Indiana 

EXECUTIVE SECRETARY 

WADE, Lewis, Ph.D.

Senior Science Advisor 

National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 

Washington, DC 

MEMBERSHIP 

ANDERSON, Henry A., M.D.

Chief Medical Officer 

Occupational and Environmental Health

Wisconsin Division of Public Health 

Madison, Wisconsin 

DeHART, Roy Lynch, M.D., M.P.H.

Director 

The Vanderbilt Center for Occupational and Environmental

Medicine 

Professor of Medicine 

Nashville, Tennessee 

GIBSON, Michael H.

President 

Paper, Allied-Industrial, Chemical, and Energy Union

Local 5-4200 

Miamisburg, Ohio 
 

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GRIFFON, Mark A.

President 

Creative Pollution Solutions, Inc.

Salem, New Hampshire 

MUNN, Wanda I.

Senior Nuclear Engineer (Retired)

Richland, Washington 

PRESLEY, Robert W.

Special Projects Engineer

BWXT Y12 National Security Complex

Clinton, Tennessee 

ROESSLER, Genevieve S., Ph.D.

Professor Emeritus 

University of Florida

Elysian, Minnesota 

STAFF/VENDORS 

LASHAWN SHIELDS, Committee Management Specialist, NIOSH

STEVEN RAY GREEN, Certified Merit Court Reporter 
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AUDIENCE PARTICIPANTS 

ADCOCK, DAVID, Y-12

ANDERSON, LYNN, SRS

BEATTY, EVERETT RAY, SR., FERNALD ATOMIC COUNCIL

BEHLING, HANS, SC&A

BEHLING, KATHY, SC&A

BOGARD, RHONDA, Y-12

BROEHM, JASON, CDC WASHINGTON OFFICE

BRYNESTAD, ASTRIS, Y-12

CLELAND, REINA

CROWE, BILL, X-10

CROWE, ED, X-10

DEHART, JULIA

DUNCAN, ASPASCIA, CLAIMANT SPOUSE

DUNCAN, THOMAS N., BWXT Y12

ELLIOTT, CHARLES C.

ELLIOTT, CONNIE, ENERGY RESERVE CENTER

ELLIOTT, LARRY, NIOSH/OCAS

FITZGERALD, JOSEPH, SC&A

HALL, HUBERT T.

HALL, LAWRENCE R., X-10

HENSHAW, RUSS, NIOSH/OCAS

HINNEFELD, STUART, NIOSH

HOMOKI-TITUS, LIZ, HHS

HOWELL, EMILY, HHS

HUMPHREYS, IDA, NIOSH

ISHAK, LAURIE, OCAS

KATZ, TED, NIOSH

KERR, ,GEORGE, KERR CONSULTING

KOTSCH, JEFF, DOL

LAWSON, J.H., BWXT-Y12/ATLC

LAYMAN, RANDY D., CLAIMANT

MAKHIJANI, ARJUN, SC&A

MAURO, JOHN, SC&A

PIERCE, WILLIAM, X10-Y12-K25 K33

PRESLEY, LOUISE S., WIFE OF ROBERT PRESLEY

ROBERTSON-DEMERS, KATHY, SC&A

RYAN, MAXINE, Y-12

SAMPSON, BOB, GAO

SCHAUER, DAVID, NCRP

SIMS, JOHN, IGUA 
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SMITH, KAREN D., Y-12

SNELLINGS, HOWARD

TOOHEY, RICHARD, ORAU

WALKER, ED & JOYCE, BSAG

WOODY, RUTH, CLAIMANT

WORMSBY, PATSY E.

WRIGHT, BETTY R., Y-12

ZIEMER, MARILYN 
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P R O C E E D I N G S 

(3:50 p.m.) 

WELCOME AND OPENING COMMENTS 

DR. PAUL ZIEMER, CHAIR 

DR. ZIEMER: I now will call to order the meeting 

of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health. 

Let the record show that we do have a quorum. All 

members are currently present with the exception of 

Dr. Melius, and Mr. Espinosa, and Mr. Owens, but we 

do have a quorum so we will now meet as a full 

committee. Again, let me remind everyone present, if 

you have not already done so, please register your 

attendance with us today in the registration book in 

the foyer. 

GENERAL PUBLIC COMMENT 

We're going to get the public comment request 

list here in just a moment. We have reserved one 

hour for public comment, and depending on the number 

of commenters, that will determine how much time, I 

guess, each person has as a maximum. And I might 

allow you to loan time to others if you're very 

brief. Actually, we don't have enough speakers for 

people to be brief. 

I'm going to begin though with, we will begin 
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with the local folks. We have several people from Y12, and I'd like to begin with Thomas Duncan. And if 

you would approach the mikes, individuals who are 

going to speak, and approach the mike and identify 

yourself further, and then you may give us your 

comments. 

Is Mr. Duncan here? I am two minutes early. 

Let's see if, it looks like, could it be Maxine Ryan 

or -- is it Maxine? Am I reading it correctly? 

MS. RYAN-WRIGHT: No, that's my mother. I'm her 

daughter. My name is Betty Ryan-Wright. 

DR. ZIEMER: Oh, okay. 

MS. RYAN-WRIGHT: My father worked at Oak Ridge, 

and he died a miserable death. He had his skull 

removed and a titanium plate put in. And that last 

time I saw him I didn't even recognize him, and he 

told me he didn't recognize himself. This was him 

before, and this was him (unintelligible). 

My situation is I've listened to all the things 

that you've said. I talked to doss (ph) people. I 

have talked to John Duncan. I have talked to 

Alexander. My situation is that my mother is 81 

years old. And you all can discuss this and discuss 

this and discuss how many dosages had and everything 

like that. And when I used to ask my father what he 
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did for a living, he would tell me if he told me he 

would have to kill me, that it was a secret. And he 

trusted that secret. 

And the main thing that I want to tell you is my 

father trusted where he worked. He believed in what 

he was doing. He believed that he was secure where 

he worked. He had a wonderful job. He was proud of 

it. Now when he died in diapers, and he died gasping 

for breath, and he died a miserable death that he did 

not deserve. And I asked him, I said, Daddy, did 

this come from Oak Ridge? And he said, absolutely. 

And they took depositions from him. They came 

and went downtown and talked to them, and my mother 

has a book this thick. And some of the things he's 

told them that he would not tell them because he took 

an oath not to tell. And my mother was just talking 

to me when you all mentioned some things about the 

urine and everything like that, that sometimes his 

urine was so high that they would put him in a room 

and let him rest there listening to music until for a 

certain amount of time. 

And she had to take clothes to him one time 

because he'd been in some radiation. And she brought 

those clothes home to us, but nobody knew. Nobody 

knew. My father trusted. And in the paper not long 
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ago there was a thing about my father and his, my 

grandfather and my father and my uncles came down 

from Chicago, and they worked at Oak Ridge in 

construction. They built Oak Ridge. They built the 

secret city, and then my father went into the plant 

and worked for 29 and a half years. 

They worked at K-25. They worked at Y-12. I 

can't tell you everything he did because I don't 

know, but the thing that was in the paper not long 

ago that someone came after the Oak Ridge had been 

built and after the war was over. And I'm a baby, a 

boomer baby. I'll be 60 in December, December the 

7th, Pearl Harbor Day. It wasn't Pearl Harbor Day 

that I was born. 

But they told the people there that you are 

important. You are heroes. They came and they gave 

them the E Award because they said that you hastened 

the peace. And so my father was a hero. And I would 

like to, and there's a settlement that my mother's 

supposed to get. And my mother is 81, and she is in 

failing health. She could not get up here and speak 

to you. That's why I'm speaking for her. And she 

could probably tell you more about what he did and 

how long he worked here and there, and give you more 

details than I can, but she's unable to. And I would 
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like to see her get a settlement and her number’s 

like 10,000 and something. I would like to see her 

get the settlement before she dies, before I die. 

And the woman that was in Brazil, I have a 

message for you. I have two adopted sons from 

Brazil, so that's all. I just wanted to put a face. 

I wanted you to see that this is personal. It's not 

all about all your wonderful brain power that you 

have in this room. What we need to learn to do is 

make places safer for people to work where they don't 

die like my father did. 

DR. ZIEMER: Thank you very much, and certainly 

there are many such heroes in this community. 

Now Randy Layman. Randy, yes. 

MR. LAYMAN: My father went to work at Y-12 in 

1958, and he died of myelomitic leukemia in 1981. My 

father fell suddenly ill on a Sunday night. He was 

six-two, 235 pounds. Tuesday, they diagnosed my 

father with leukemia right over here at this hospital 

across the river. Thursday, they gave him a 

chemotherapy, and Friday he died holding my hand. My 

dad didn't go a slow, agonizing death, but he went 

really quickly. And he told me at the hospital that 

he knew for a fact that where he worked contributed 

to killing him. 
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Now I don't know. You guys are scientists, but 

we call ourselves Ridgers. People at Oak Ridge are 

very tight. We're clannish in East Tennessee, and 

I'm proud of that. But here's what I want to say to 

you. Somebody mentioned 92-12. Well, my daddy 

worked at 92-01, 92-02, Beta-4 and Alpha-5, large 

fabrication plants. Somebody up here mentioned 

material handlers, somebody that might touch 

something. Well, my dad was a machinist. He turned 

metal at high speed where these shavings flicked in 

the air, in 1958, 1959, 1960, way before your 1961. 

Did you ever hear about them walking through 

mercury knee deep at Y-12? Has anybody ever heard of 

cleaning metal with benzene? Y'all know what benzene 

will do to you? Would anybody up here handle metal 

treated with benzene and live to tell it? But my dad 

was like this. He loved this country, and if he was 

alive today, he'd go right back to Y-12. Would you? 

You all have your homes to go to. I have my home to 

go to. My father's in his eternal home, but when he 

was here, he wanted to protect this country, the arms 

build-up, you all know all about it. 

NIOSH has been telling me for two and a half 

years, we're in dose reconstruction. We're in dose 

reconstruction. Now it's in the hands of a 
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physicist. Well, what kind of a physicist do you 

have to have to know that somebody died from those 

materials out at the plant? I'm not a scientist, but 

yet I know it. What do you guys know? Can you all 

settle this? 

I'll tell you one more thing, we were told that 

the money from the government was appropriated to 

NIOSH to settle our cases, but you all spent the 

money, and now the government has had to rededicate 

the money, and it come across the ticker on Fox News 

that it would be settled soon. Are you going to 

spend it again or are you going to give it to the 

families? Your comments. 

DR. ZIEMER: Thank you very much, and 

incidentally maybe NIOSH can speak to this, but the 

money that is used in the settlement, we do not have 

any access to that, that's in the Federal Treasury; 

is that not correct? Mr. Elliott or someone can 

address that, but that money is not used for the 

expense of this board. 

MR. ELLIOTT: That is correct. The Award Fund is 

an entitlement fund in the Treasury, and it is 

replenished once it reaches exhaustion. I think it's 

been replenished two or three times. The money 

that's appropriated to administer the program is a 
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separate set of funds and that's allocated on an 

annual appropriations basis. 

DR. ZIEMER: Let me check, and yes, thank you, 

Mr. Layman for addressing. 

MR. LAYMAN: Layman (pronouncing). 

DR. ZIEMER: Layman (pronouncing), okay, thank 

you. 

Did Thomas Duncan come in? Thomas Duncan. 

Perhaps he thought he was signing up for tomorrow, so 

we'll check on that again. Also, are there any other 

Oak Ridge folks that didn't get a chance to sign up 

to speak that do wish to address the assembly? Any 

other Oak Ridge folks? 

Again, many may wish to do that tomorrow in our 

evening public comment session. 

Oh, I'm sorry. I missed your hand, sir. If you 

would approach the mike, we'd be pleased to hear from 

you. And please give us your name for the record. 

MR. SNELLINGS: Howard Snellings. 

DR. ZIEMER: Howard, is it Howard? 

MR. SNELLINGS: Howard Snellings, yes, sir. 

I started at Oak Ridge when I was 16 years old. 

I been into ever ditch, run off from all the plants, 

and I developed a cancer on account of that. That's 

my belief. And the cancer, it's prostate cancer. 
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Well, I believe I got it by working down in all that 

ditch (unintelligible), and run-off from the plants. 

I worked at Y-12 when they, back in '62 when they 

tore everything out of Y-12 buildings and remodeled 

them. And I handled some of that stuff that come out 

of the buildings. I don't know what it was, but I 

know that I have cancer over it. That's my comment. 

I worked down there since I was 16 years old, and I'm 

77 years old now. 

DR. ZIEMER: Thank you very much. 

Anything further? 

Yes, ma'am. 

MS. CLELAND: I'm very glad that you had these 

meetings for us because I was very confused about the 

time line. My number is in the 5,000s. 

DR. ZIEMER: Yes, can you give us your name, 

please. 

MS. CLELAND: Reina Cleland. 

DR. ZIEMER: Reina? Do you want to spell that 

for --

MS. CLELAND: R-E-I-N-A Cleland, C-L-E-L-A-N-D. 

And my sentiments are like these people. This 

board has not addressed a time line. I worked at Oak 

Ridge myself for ten years, so I'm in the information 

business. And so I've enjoyed this because I think 
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you're going to prevent this recurring from what I 

see of this research approach, but I do wish there 

were a time line. I feel like someone earlier who 

had said, I'm 86 so that I hope there is a settlement 

before I die. And my daughter is very concerned that 

we did not put her name as the prime because it's 

taking so long. But I just wish the time were 

addressed. 

DR. ZIEMER: We will be hearing a report actually 

tomorrow, I think, on the status of the program, and 

you'll learn from Mr. Elliott or his people about the 

numbers of claims and the numbers that have been 

processed. I do know that amazingly enough they 

announced they have processed now over 10,000 claims, 

I believe, was the number, Larry, that you passed 

earlier this year which is more than half of the 

claims that have been submitted. Is that not 

correct? 

MS. CLELAND: Does that mean that number 5,000 is 

DR. ZIEMER: No, actually, the other -- that's 

the good news. The bad news, the other part of it is 

that some of the claims are much more complex and 

difficult, and there is a backlog of some of the 

earlier claims that are still being processed. But, 
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and you'll get, if you're here tomorrow, you'll get 

those numbers. If you're not going to be here 

tomorrow, I'm sure Mr. Elliott can provide them for 

you. 

But there is a concerted effort going on to try 

to get many of those early claims completed as soon 

as possible. But as I say, the simpler ones were 

handled early on simply because they could be, but 

many were more complex, either the nature of the 

claim or other issues, completeness of information 

and so on. 

Also, I have on the list Ed Walker. Ed has 

driven down here from New York state. He's, Ed is 

the spokesman really for the Bethlehem Steel group 

and has been able to attend a number of our meetings 

in the past. And since Bethlehem Steel is on this 

schedule again, he is kind enough to be with us. Ed, 

I think, drove 800 and some miles to attend the 

meeting so he's a real trooper. 

Ed, welcome. 

MR. WALKER: I want to thank you, Dr. Ziemer, and 

the board and everyone involved for allowing me to 

speak to you. (Inaudible) I want to speak to we 

think (inaudible) meetings that we've had and how 

we've been working compared to what went on when we 
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first started this system. I was really pleased, and 

it was really helpful in some of my information. And 

you ought to know by now that I will not be talking 

figures. But I did work at the plant and 

(inaudible). And a lot of these issues really 

haven't been addressed since we started. 

Two thousand one is when I signed up, and I put 

my application in. And ten months later I found out 

there was going to be a dose reconstruction. It had 

been reported in newspaper articles that we would be 

receiving. I signed up in November 1, we'd be 

receiving compensation –- and the group feels that 

way, everyone I talked to. Ten months after, we 

found out we're coming into a dose reconstruction. 

That's fine if that's what they felt we had to do. 

After that it was, it was March of '03 that dose 

reconstruction was approved. Okay, we waited quite 

awhile by then. They (unintelligible) people. 

So then we were told some of these fellows from 

NIOSH and, I believe, some of the board members, and 

I believe, no there wasn't -– auditing hadn’t been 

involved, SC&A, but we had some meetings. And we 

decided it would be a good idea if we talked to the 

site experts. Well, our dose, the technical base 

document had already been completed at that time, 16 
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months prior to that, and we were being denied. 

So we had a meeting in Hamburg, and we saw the 

site profile. We'd been denied for 16 months, and 

now we're told at that meeting that, they give us 

some of the stuff that happened, that they knew what 

went on at Bethlehem Steel. I couldn't understand 

that, and the group can't understand if we had a 

technical base document that was put together and no 

one had ever talked to any of the site experts, how 

could you really tell what the people were involved 

in? This bothers us considerably. We still to this 

day cannot figure out how you can do that, make an 

assumption from 800 miles away and never visit the 

site. 

Two months prior to that meeting, I got a phone 

call, and I was asked if the building is still 

standing. I said, my god, if you've got a site 

profile and you don't even know if the building is 

there, and you haven't talked to anybody, what's in 

this technical base document to represent the 

Bethlehem Steel workers or what went on? So at that 

meeting, I think one meeting before the SC&A was 

involved, and that was, I believe, the board meeting 

in Buffalo, New York, we met with the SC&A. 

And Kathy came up and she says, Ed, could you 
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give me the name of some of the site workers? And I 

gave her a list. I can't remember, maybe 10 or 12 

people that worked at the site. And I says, well, 

here they are. These are the people that I know. 

Some of them may have worked a little later, but 

they'll give you an idea of the layout of the plant. 

And I felt good about that because nobody had asked 

me up to this point about that. So I gave her the 

names and she looked into them. 

At that meeting there was a real lack of concern. 

I'm only telling you. I'm not trying to hurt anybody 

or discredit anybody for what they done, but I'm 

telling you how we feel, and how the group felt. At 

that working meeting, 16 months after the technical 

base document, I really felt that there was no 

concern from NIOSH because the information that we 

gave them wasn't questioned. 

Arjun was there. We went till noon. Most of the 

fellas had to leave. We signed in in the morning and 

went to noon. Arjun was there, and he would stop the 

workers as we were talking and say, what specifically 

does that mean? Where were you? What did you do? A 

concern of what the workers had, but this didn't 

happen from the rest of the people that were present 

and that bothered me quite a bit. I felt that there 
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should have been more concern from them than there 

was SC&A. I was wrong apparently. 

I'm going to jump into jump into Arjun's visit 

that he done last December. We had our meeting on 

the 6th of October, just recently. Some of you were 

there, and Mr. Elliott made a statement which I want 

to apologize to him right now. I made a statement 

that I want to apologize right now in front of you 

people. He said -- I said that Mr. Elliott didn't 

respond to my letters. Mr. Elliott did respond to my 

letters. I think what I was more referring to are 

the issues that I never got answers for from day one. 

And I was wrong, and I apologize. I hope he accepts 

my apology, but he certainly deserves it. 

Arjun called me a couple days later. He come up 

to Buffalo, and again, the concern about these air 

samples which I saw and mentioned, I believe, at that 

meeting that were 500 feet away from where the 

actual, where the work was really being done, the 

rolling was being done. And he came up, and he asked 

me to get some people together on a Saturday 

afternoon, and we were corresponding back and forth 

by the phone or talking on the phone. And we made 

the arrangements that he would come up Sunday. And I 

was so impressed with SC&A again that they would have 
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the concern to come up there on a Sunday to 

straighten out some issues that had some gray areas 

in them. 

And we got the information from this gentleman 

that worked there. It was a meeting that I feel that 

really NIOSH should even at this stage come up and 

talk to these people that worked there and what 

really went on in Bethlehem Steel. Arjun took all 

the information down. I had one more fellow lined 

up, but he says, Ed, I've got all the information -- 

I think we spent about two, two and a half hours -- 

and he says, I've got all that I need, and he says, 

if I didn't, he says, if I had to I'd stay another 

day. That to me showed real concern, and somebody 

that's really concerned about the workers, and that's 

more than I had ever received before. 

We got into (unintelligible) to air samples and 

where they were taken on the drawings. And the fella 

that, and we had a couple of fellas there that we 

were talking to. And I know we went over some of the 

issues this morning, but he has talked about the air 

samples being taken. He was, worked there back in 

'50 and'51. I think even earlier than that, but he 

talked about taking an air sample at the -- he 

remembered that. And he told me this about a year 
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ago, and when he told me that, I had seen it in the 

air sample data that there was some taken there. 

I knew the man was telling the truth and was real 

sincere because out of the clear blue he says that I 

remember a man taking samples by the water fountain. 

Now, I never said nothing to him about that, and to 

this day I never said a word that I had seen it 

prior. So this is the credibility that that man had. 

And believe me, Arjun pumped him like he had 

committed a murder. So I know the information, and 

I'm really pleased what was done there. 

It was mentioned this morning something about the 

breathing zones and one of the samples taken it was 

brought up that it was taken by stand one. It was 

taken, actually, the breathing zone sample was taken 

between the salt bath and stand one. And I called up 

this fella, and I remember working there. I remember 

the salt bath, but I can't remember the detail 

because I got out of the plant like five years later, 

and I don't remember all those details. So I asked 

him, I says, between, I says, what's the area between 

the salt bath and the first stand? I knew it was 

considerable, but I says, about what would your best 

guesstimate be? And he said it was about 50 to 60 

feet, which was substantial. And I says, there's no 
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definition or real description on where that air 

sample was taken, whether it was taken right by the 

stand or whether it was taken by the salt bath. 

And as they picked out -- the crane operator was 

there that actually picked up these rods and took 

them out of the salt bath. And that area, that's all 

they done was he came over with the crane. He picked 

it up. They must have had some kind of a guide on it 

to hold it from swinging around, and they took it. 

There's really nothing there between the salt bath 

and stand one that would be a breathing zone sample 

could make anything because if anybody was there for 

any length of time, he was just walking from one spot 

over to the other. So I don't feel that air samples 

like that were taken properly. 

I think someone asked this morning about the 

clean up before and after. And I don't know if that 

was really explained very good. There was certainly, 

you know, clean up before. And if you talk to any 

one of the workers, which I've probably talked to 

about 30 that actually worked there. Some of them 

worked there later, but they would certainly tell you 

what the conditions of that job was, and there was no 

way that plant could have been cleaned up. 

And some of the stuff the man was talking about 
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that basement area under this cooling bin that's 

larger than a football field, that was like a pepper 

shaker with this black soot coming off of the rod 

down below. Now we talk about a ten-hour day. They 

rolled on Saturday so ten hours for working would be 

favorable to them. Those guys didn't clean that out 

on Saturday to start with. They cleaned it out 

whenever they were sent down. 

Now I don't know how it was mixed when it got 

down there, whether there was a layer of steel on top 

of it or not, but I can actually, I could bring you 

the person that actually went down and shoveled it up 

with a shovel and a wheelbarrow and shoveled up into 

a hopper. And they took it out and dumped it into 

these cars that I was referring to this morning. So 

clean up wasn't in that ten-hour day. That operation 

didn't start Saturday morning at eight o'clock and 

quit at 4:30 in the afternoon. That operation was on 

continually. 

When did they clean it out? Sometimes they'd 

clean it out twice a month. Sometimes they'd clean 

it out once a week. There was no set time. When 

they had the spare men there to go down and do it, 

they went down and cleaned it out. They didn't take 

out a layer of steel and then say, well, here's the 
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uranium. Don't get near it. No protection 

whatsoever, and it was impossible to clean it out. 

So you talk about how long were they working with 

uranium? The electricians that worked down there 

didn't (unintelligible) that. The carpenters that 

worked down in that pit, yes, there was electrical 

boxes and there was buildings. They had to do 

maintenance work down there all week long. If it was 

there, they walked through it to get to their spot, 

to their work station. It was mixed up. There was 

no (inaudible) and 50 percent's going to be gone 

tomorrow and another 50 percent the next day. That's 

not going to happen in any of the areas at Bethlehem 

Steel. 

And then there was stuff that went up into the 

ceiling. You've probably seen the picture, the size 

of that mill. And if you go downstairs and you look 

in that hallway down there, that isn't as big as the 

operation at Bethlehem Steel. When you take, and 

you're running uranium from one end with different 

procedures, and you take that building and it’s just 

pretty, pretty accurate, too, the size of that room, 

you're not going to clean that up in one shift. 

There's no way. 

And if you do clean it, it's not going to be work 
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down there. These guys did not clean it. The boss 

told them to clean it -- and there was a track 

through it. They'll sweep it off into a corner, and 

that's where it was. So we're not talking a ten-hour 

day down there. 

(Inaudible) that three period of '50 and '51, and 

I know (inaudible) been allowed a rolling once a 

month, and I guess you could say that's claimant 

favorable. You could say it, but I don't think it's 

too claimant favorable because there is documentation 

that says that something went on in '49 and '50. It 

was documentation that there were records, but they 

were destroyed. And I'm going to explain to you why 

something had to go on that only made sense to me and 

to anybody that worked down there. 

That building that I told you downstairs was just 

where they rolled uranium. There was other buildings 

attached to this building about that size that ringed 

off to the side. And if you opened up a door, right 

on Lake Erie basically, right on the beach, you 

opened up the doors to get ventilation in summer. 

Well, they weren't open every day in summer. That 

thing would blow. 

This 50 percent every day that you're losing, you 

open up one of those big double-head doors openings 
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to let the wind come in, that stuff is mixed in the 

pile. You could be sitting there and a pile of pure 

uranium could come down and hit you today, maybe the 

next day it's still, and you didn't know. That could 

have stayed up there for three, four days until the 

door was opened or a crane went by and happened to 

bump it or shake it off. So as far as not being 

exposed other than those ten hours is just really 

ridiculous. 

And as far as what period, from '49 to '51, they 

did not walk in there on the first test rolling and 

say, here, we got uranium, fellas. Start it up; let 

her rip. That wasn't the case. They had that mill, 

and this fella that Arjun talked to said it took them 

well over a year when they first built that mill to 

open the mill after it was built to get what he 

called the bugs out of it because we were having 

cobbles with steel. And to get it so they could 

really start rolling on a production basis on regular 

steel was well over a year. 

Well, I don't believe anybody in this room thinks 

that they went in there Saturday morning and says, 

okay, come in Saturday morning. We're going to run 

uranium. First of all, the rolling runs Bethlehem 

Steel had 16 roll stands or mills so to speak that 
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you rolled out this rod in. They ended up, they took 

out of the middle of these stands, they called it 

from nothing to finishing. They took out of the 

middle of these 16 stands, they took out enough 

stands that they could start the uranium because they 

figured out that they could roll a three inch billet 

or a four inch billet with only six stands of uranium 

down to that inch and a half rod. So they didn't 

need the rest of the stands. 

That wasn't thought of that morning. That had to 

be researched. They had to test it. We were working 

with lead billets. They had to build the salt baths. 

All that had to be done. They were working in that 

plant, and I think this document that we're talking 

about, I was talking about, will attest to that. 

There was experimental work going on that weren't 

considered rollings. There was no consideration 

given to the work that those people done and to make 

the rollers. 

They had to make these rollers. These rollers 

were special, and they put them in these big stands, 

and they rolled like a washing machine roller, and 

they had ridges in them. The first ridge might have 

been three inches. The next one might have been two 

and a half, and the next one might have been two and, 
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you know, and there was a pair of rollers that we had 

to squeeze this rod down in. And those all had to be 

made, and that all had to be tested. And there's 

nothing in the dose reconstruction that picks up any 

exposure for that. 

And we don't know. What did they do with the 

lead bath? What experiments did they do with the 

lead bath? This lead bath was an open bath like a 

bathtub made out of brick, and they had heat in it. 

And they preheated this uranium in a furnace, brought 

it over, put it in the lead bath. The uranium and 

the lead, today you can't sell your house in New York 

state if you've got lead in the paint that was put in 

there 60 years ago. They won't allow you to get that 

close to lead. 

These men bend over with hooks, and as those 

rods, those bolts came down, and there's nine of them 

in there, they had to by hand take it out. Where's 

the breathing zone samples? Where was the breathing 

zone samples then? Do you want to stick your head 

over a salt bath, 11, 12 hundred degrees with a hook 

with no protection at all? 

Remember, we were lied to for 50 years by the 

government. We had no idea. The boss sent you to go 

over there and get them out of there. You had no 
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idea. It wasn't steel -- It wasn't any different 

than steel as far as you're concerned. And at times 

they couldn't even get them out. They were so heavy 

that the hooks and that bent. 

None of this is taken into consideration in this 

dose reconstruction, the site profile. So these are 

some of the issues, and there's many, many more that 

I could go on, but for your benefit, I asked for a 

half hour, and it might be about that so I don't want 

you all walking out when I'm standing here talking. 

So these are some of the real issues that I'm 

concerned about beside the technical base. 

And if you don't have the right information, you 

might want to, if you don't understand that 

operation, I can't see how anybody can make a dose 

reconstruction and be accurate with it. And we're 

talking (unintelligible). As I said over the salt 

bath, the temperature of that and how much did you 

take in in a day. How does anybody know? 

And the fact that the government has paid sites. 

They have paid workers at sites with no questions 

asked and no dose reconstruction. I've got bladder 

cancer. I'll live with that as long as I can. 

People are getting paid in other parts of the country 

no questions asked. Is it fair to the Bethlehem 
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Steel or is it fair to any worker whether it's down 

here, whether it's up at Simonds Saw, whether it's 

Linde, is it fair when you make up a technical base 

document without the proper information input? 

There may be a lot of facilities that this 

program works at. I'm not going to deny that, maybe 

a lot of them, but there's a lot of them that don't. 

And I think unless it's thoroughly researched that 

we're not getting a fair shake. And so much for 

today. I may have more for tomorrow, but we'll leave 

it go at that today. And I want to thank you again. 

I really hope that you consider this and have NIOSH 

really look into this because I really feel that 

we're getting an unfair shake on this whole thing. 

Thank you very much. 

DR. ZIEMER: Thank you, Ed. And indeed, you've 

been a good resource for the contractor and for NIOSH 

to help identify some of the issues and work 

practices there at Bethlehem Steel helping us do a 

better job at what we're supposed to do as well, and 

so we thank you for that. 

Last opportunity, anyone else that wishes to 

address the assembly that didn't get a chance to sign 

up? 

Yes, sir, please approach the mike. Give us your 
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name again. 

MR. BEATTY: Yes, sir, my name is Ray Beatty. 

I'm currently employed at the Fernald site, Fernald, 

Ohio. I purposely waited last here to not infringe 

upon the local folks here to speak. And I, too, have 

attended numerous board meetings, followed it rather 

closely, and I also sit on an advisory board or two 

myself, one being the Fernald Medical Monitoring 

Program. And one of the tasks that we have as an 

advisory board is to make sure that things, you know, 

programmatically are running smoothly. 

Well, I'm here today to point out one major 

problem that we've encountered with a claimant from 

Fernald, and I think it's something very important 

the board needs to hear. I have been designated as a 

representative through the Department of Labor's 

forums to represent this individual through the 

claims process. I'm talking about an individual who 

works at Fernald, is still employed, has been there 

since March 9th of 1953, still working. 

He filed a claim back in April of this year. 

won't go into a lot of details due to the sensitivity 

and everything, but nevertheless, he has a brother 

that works at the site as well. His brother has a 

form of cancer as well and in the process of wading 

I 
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through these processes that DOL, DOE, NIOSH, and 

different ones have, the phone interview process was 

the issue come to hand. 

The second gentleman that filed his claim filed 

like eight, nine, ten weeks after the first 

gentleman. He was talking about his phone interview 

process coming one day in our office, and we thought 

that was somewhat, you know, different that the first 

individual hadn't been contacted who had filed eight 

or nine weeks earlier. 

So we did a little investigative work and found 

out that the first individual's application was 

laying on the desk of a Department of Labor claims 

representative. Called this individual to find out 

what the problem was. Why hadn't his gone to NIOSH 

for dose reconstruction or at least a phone 

interview. He said he had contacted the Department 

of Energy three times and could not get employment 

verification. 

Now is that silly or what? This guy's a 53 year 

veteran, still working there, and they can't prove 

he's employed there or worked there. Now in all 

fairness to them, there was a break in his service 

for military service, two years. Doesn't take a 

rocket scientist to figure that out that this guy is 
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still there. This is a breakdown in communications. 

Now if this happened to a 50 year veteran that's 

still employed, what are these people throughout the 

country going through on this process? 

Someone really needs to take a good look at this. 

Now in fairness again to some of the agencies 

involved, I wasn't getting anywhere with the 

Department of Energy personally. They didn't want to 

talk to me or the individual that was involved. 

Called the Department of Labor and asked for a copy 

of where he had requested this employment 

verification. He did not want to do that. I 

understood what his reasonings were. 

So my next step is to contact NIOSH personally 

and find out what I could do. Thank goodness someone 

there helped me, and I appreciate that very much. So 

found out just before I left for this meeting 

yesterday that his employment verification had been 

done this past week. It took six months to prove 

that he worked there. 

There's something badly wrong with that process 

so I'd like for the board to be aware of it. If you 

want any kind of details or verification, any kind of 

documentation to support what I've stated here today, 

I have it. And especially an e-mail or a fax, I 
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should say, from the Department of Energy finally 

that they had only received one request for 

employment verification. 

Now someone in the Department of Labor or someone 

in the Department of Energy has not told me the 

truth, and I'd like to find out which one didn't tell 

me the truth, okay? So that's the kind of stuff 

that's going on. Thank you very much. 

DR. ZIEMER: Thank you very much, and we're 

pleased that you were able to get that solved with 

NIOSH's help. Incidentally, this will be on the 

record, but the board itself has run into 

frustrations at times trying to get things from the 

Department of Energy as well, and sometimes find it 

very difficult ourselves to get into the bureaucracy. 

That doesn't excuse it, but it's something 

unfortunately more common than one would hope. We're 

glad that you were able to get that solved by 

persistence which is what usually is required. 

Now we do have a chance for anyone else, final 

comments? 

If not, I thank you all for participating. I do 

want to remind you that in addition to the regular 

session tomorrow, which is open, and it begins at 

8:30, there will be a public comment period tomorrow 
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evening beginning at seven o'clock, and you're 

certainly welcome to participate then if you so 

desire. 

So with that we are recessed until tomorrow. 

Thank you very much. 

(Meeting adjourned at 4:37 p.m.) 
______________________________ 

39 

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

STATE OF GEORGIA 

COUNTY OF FULTON 

 I, Steven Ray Green, Certified Merit Court 

Reporter, do hereby certify that I reported the 

above and foregoing on the day of October 17, 

2005; and it is a true and accurate transcript 

of the testimony captioned herein. 

 I further certify that I am neither kin 

nor counsel to any of the parties herein, nor 

have any interest in the cause named herein. 

 WITNESS my hand and official seal this the 

4th day of December, 2005. 

STEVEN RAY GREEN, CCR 

CERTIFIED MERIT COURT REPORTER 

CERTIFICATE NUMBER: A-2102