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1

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON URANIUM-REFINING AWE

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

FEBRUARY 14, 2012

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened via 

teleconference at 2:00 p.m. Eastern Standard 

Time, Henry Anderson, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

HENRY ANDERSON, Chairman

WILLIAM FIELD, Member
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2

ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

DAVE ALLEN, DCAS

HANS BEHLING, SC&A

SAM GLOVER, DCAS

JENNY LIN, HHS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

AMY MURAWSKI

JIM NETON, DCAS

ARIS PAPADOPOULOS, SC&A

LAVON RUTHERFORD, DCAS
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3

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Electro.................................... 4 

SC&A response.............................. 7 

United Nuclear............................ 32

 

Baker-Perkins............................. 47

Public Comments........................... 53

Adjournment............................... 69
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4

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (2:01 p.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: Let me say for everyone 

4 involved there's an agenda for this meeting, 

5 and I hope some of you have received emails 

6 about it, but it's on the NIOSH website under 

7 the Board section -- under the meeting 

8 section, not the Board section, so you're 

9 welcome to that agenda. There are some 

10 documents associated with this meeting, as 

11 well. They should be there.

12 And let me just ask everyone 

13 except for the people who are addressing the 

14 Work Group to mute your phones. If you don't 

15 have a mute button you can just press *6, and 

16 that will mute your phone, *6 again will take 

17 your phone off mute. So, please mute your 

18 phones. And that's it. It's your agenda. Andy.

19 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. The 

20 first discussion is concerning Electro 

21 Metallurgical, and a revised ER to add a Class 
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5

1 to the -- or to create an SEC Class. So, who's 

2 going to give us the update on that? I think 

3 we got the written part of it.

4 DR. GLOVER: I'd be happy just to -

I think we've summarized it in our May 16th 5 , 

and also in an email on November 16th 6 . 

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

8 DR. GLOVER: But NIOSH carefully 

9 reviewed the data and listened to SC&A, but 

10 also internally we looked at all the data 

11 that's been collected, as well as additional 

12 information regarding changes in the program. 

 And as is summarized in our November 14th 13

14 email, that the air monitoring and bioassay 

15 data collected in the early time frame do not 

16 provide a bounding upper intake estimate for 

17 internal dose of Electro Met. Bioassay data do 

18 exist prior to 1948, the data do not provide a 

19 bounding intake for all employees in the 

20 earlier years because no worker job titles are 

21 available. The highest exposed workers were 
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6

1 monitored. And also the bioassay data prior to 

2 1948 are from a single campaign and may not 

3 represent overall facility operations.

4 Examination of air monitoring data 

5 clearly shows that almost all data was 

6 collected after 1948. Documentation has also 

7 come to our attention that upgrades were made 

8 to a safety program, extensive according to 

9 the documentation in 1947, end of '47. 

10 Because these upgrades likely reduced the 

11 exposure after 1947, NIOSH no longer believes 

12 the air monitoring data collected in 1948 and 

13 '49 can be used to back-extrapolate exposures 

14 from earlier years. So, I think we've 

15 summarized -- we've tried to maintain and not 

16 go into changes after 1948. We really focused 

17 on making that discussion consistent with what 

18 I've provided in this.

19 We realize that there are still 

20 some elements before the Board. We believe 

21 that those are -- SC&A, that we could work 
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7

1 through those, but we thought that this was an 

2 opportunity that we should take to -- 

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: To approve that 

4 as a -- 

5 DR. GLOVER: An SEC Class, yes, 

6 sir.

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. SC&A, do 

8 you have any additional comments?

9 DR. MAURO: Yes, this is John 

10 Mauro. We had a chance to review the 

11 Evaluation Report over the past week or so. 

12 Bill Thurber actually did the review, and he 

13 called me this morning to let me know that he 

14 has a medical situation that he had to deal 

15 with, so he briefed me. And he also sent in a 

16 preliminary report. 

17 And what I could do is sort of 

18 summarize it, as I understand it, best I can, 

19 which is sort of interesting because what Bill 

20 had to say was that after reviewing the 

21 evaluation report -- and he's very familiar 
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8

1 with the history of this because he's been 

2 close to Electro Met for some time. He found a 

3 couple of things that were interesting that 

4 need to be, in his opinion, that is how he 

5 explained to me, a little better developed. 

6 I'll explain.

7 As Sam just mentioned, one of the 

8 concerns we had from the very beginning was 

9 that there was certainly quite a bit of data 

10 in '48, '47 I believe time period, air 

11 sampling data, but -- and it would be -- and 

12 the original position that NIOSH had was that 

13 it could be back-extrapolated to the early 

14 '40s where there was little or no data 

15 available. And, clearly, Sam concurs that 

16 there were sufficient changes that occurred 

17 between the early '40s and the late '40s that 

18 make it difficult to extrapolate back.

19 However, Bill's review recently 

20 revealed that there was some bioassay data in 

21 the early years, and there was bioassay data 
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9

1 in the later years. And his review of that 

2 data seems to indicate that the data covers a 

3 large number of the workers that were -- we 

4 understand were actually there. And that when 

5 you compare the bioassay data for the early 

6 years and the later years, they're comparable; 

7 that is, the distributions of the 

8 concentrations seem comparable. 

9 So, we're in the situation, we're 

10 saying that it appears that there is 

11 information in the Evaluation Report which 

12 would -- and the work that was -- and the 

13 reports that were reviewed by Bill that would 

14 indicate that perhaps you can reconstruct the 

15 doses in the early years. Not that we're 

16 saying you can, we're saying that there is 

17 enough information there that sort of like 

18 cries out for some discussion of why that 

19 might be a problem.

20 Now I just heard Sam, I think you 

21 made a point here that might really put this 
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10 1 to bed, in that you felt that it was difficult 

2 to tell whether you captured the high-end 

3 people.

4 All I can say is that when Bill 

5 looked at it, he felt that there was a lot of 

6 information about who was monitored, the 

7 people, their job descriptions by way of 

8 bioassay early years/late years, that it 

9 seemed that in his, like his initial 

10 impressions from the review he was able to 

11 accomplish to date, which he did not complete, 

12 by the way, but he got pretty far down.

13 As you may know, he didn't 

14 actually look at the ER until it became 

15 available a week or so ago. In any event, so 

16 we're in a strange position to say that there 

17 seems to be some indication that perhaps you 

18 could reconstruct the doses. So, that was the 

19 first message he would like to sort of put on 

20 the record, that it appears that a little bit 

21 more needs to be said regarding why the 
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11 1 existing data really -- that you do have, 

2 namely, the bioassay data in the early years, 

3 somehow is inadequate with respect to 

4 capturing the high-end folks.

5 In his opinion, it seemed that it 

6 might very well have done that. And that when 

7 you look at it, it is -- it compares very 

8 favorably with the later years where you have 

9 both bioassay data and air sampling data. So, 

10 it almost puts you in a position to say that 

11 perhaps we can reconstruct doses. So, we're in 

12 this unusual position of saying that maybe a 

13 little bit more discussion on that matter is 

14 needed.

15 The second point that Bill brought 

16 up is, he took a careful look at I guess the 

17 original petitions, and there were two, 

18 related to -- let's assume for a second that 

19 an SEC is warranted here. That's where this 

20 all comes out. He felt that when looking at 

21 the petitions, and looking at interview notes, 
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12 1 and the site, and the data itself; namely, the 

2 film badge data, and the bioassay data, that 

3 it seems that you could actually identify all 

4 the workers that worked there in the -- I 

5 guess there was an area. I forget the exact 

6 name of this relatively small area where the 

7 AW work was done.

8 So, again -- and he -- I have this 

9 all written up in front of me in draft form, 

10 and it's incomplete. But he points out a 

11 number of reasons why it seems that you could 

12 -- if you were to assign an SEC, that you 

13 could limit it to this area where the actual 

14 work, AW work was going on because of what he 

15 felt was relatively complete documentation of 

16 who was there, and that there were by way of 

17 the film badge data, and by way of the 

18 bioassay data, and also with regard to 

19 indications of -- that there was access 

20 controls, so the folks going in and out, there 

21 seems to be pretty good information along 
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13 1 those lines.

2 And he also pointed out that the 

3 two I guess petitions that came in he felt 

4 were a bit unusual. We're in a strange 

5 position here, but a bit unusual in that in 

6 one case he felt that I guess the first 

7 petitioner actually did not work in the area 

8 of interest, but worked in another area as a 

9 furnace operator, which would really not place 

10 him -- he wanted to just point that out to me. 

11 And that the other petitioner, as best he can 

12 tell, did not work at all at Electro Met. He 

13 was in a physically different facility, and 

14 there may be some confusion regarding what --

15 where that person actually worked.

16 Now, again, I qualify all of this 

17 as being Bill's review, and as he communicated 

18 to me, and as written up in the draft material 

19 that he sent to me about two hours ago that I 

20 just read. So, I think it's important that we 

21 get this information, because this is the best 
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14 1 we can do with what we have. Get this 

2 information on the record to make sure that 

3 some of these issues, perhaps they are 

4 adequately covered, and if they're not, 

5 perhaps they need to be a little more 

6 thoroughly covered to make sure that the 

7 documentation in the record is complete for 

8 the purpose of making a -- for the Board to 

9 make a judgment regarding this SEC petition.

10 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: So, which 

11 periods are you talking about?

12 DR. MAURO: This -- I think it's 

13 the early -- I believe the SEC petition that's 

14 before us goes up to what, '47 or '48, from 

15 '42 to '48. Is that correct, Sam?

16 DR. GLOVER: It goes from '42 

through December 31st 17 , 1947. 

18 DR. MAURO: '47, okay, there you 

19 go. So, I was close. So, it's -- 

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: So, '48 to '58 

21 petition?
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15 1 DR. MAURO: The '48 through 1953, 

2 they asked for it through '58, but the 

3 facility ceases to be a DOE facility after 

4 1953.

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Right.

6 DR. GLOVER: Which is why we 

7 addressed from '48 to '53, is that we could do 

8 it.

9 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, and the comments I 

11 just mentioned really went toward this -- the 

12 period that's covered by the Petition 

13 Evaluation Report, where it's recommended that 

14 from -- up to '47 be included as an SEC. 

15 Well, we just have certain questions we raised 

16 that seems to be the position as best we can 

17 tell at this time. It's a little soft in the 

18 areas that I just mentioned.

19 DR. GLOVER: If I could just 

20 briefly, on -- in November of last year, we C21 - I believe that was the correct time, and we 
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16 provided -- on May 16th 1 , 2011 provided a NIOSH 

2 update in which we detailed the bioassay data 

3 that's available. 

4 I went through every individual 

5 name in the bioassay record to compare it with 

6 the external dosimetry data set. There are 

7 numerous names in there that are not -- that 

8 are in the bioassay record and they're not in 

9 the external dosimetry. We have no -- I tried 

10 everything I could to obtain worker titles for 

11 those. So, in that I actually detailed what 

12 worker Classes we had occupations for, and 

13 almost made graphs of what the -- how they 

14 compare. 

15 It is our strong conclusion that 

16 we could not use this data. We had looked 

17 carefully at it, and we provided the Board 

18 with -- we did not try to bring that full 

19 detail to the Evaluation Report, but it has 

20 been provided in a previous communication 

21 regarding our concerns over this data.
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17 1 DR. MAURO: Let me write that down 

2 because I do want to communicate it to Bill so 

3 he could just confirm that maybe he didn't 

4 look at that in this round. I know he looked 

5 at the Evaluation Report. What was the date 

6 of that report that you're referring to?

 DR. GLOVER: On May 16th 7 of 2011 the 

8 Advisory Board was provided an update, as well 

9 as SC&A, of what our status points were.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes.

11 DR. GLOVER: There was an appendix 

12 that summarized the data that was available 

13 for Electro Met. So, like Figure 5 describes 

14 the operational periods in bioassay so you can 

15 kind of get a feel for the -- 

16 DR. MAURO: Okay.

17 DR. GLOVER: -- levels of data. It 

18 also then breaks down the occupational 

19 exposures, which I went through and tried as 

20 best as we could, as you can see, almost 60 to 

21 70 percent of them had unknown occupations.
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18 1 DR. MAURO: Okay.

2 DR. GLOVER: So, looking at that 

3 data carefully and the types of changes that 

4 occurred, and that it was a single campaign 

5 does lend one to want to stand up and defend 

6 the -- 

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Attribute it to 

8 everyone.

9 DR. GLOVER: Yes. So, I --

10 certainly it's the Board's determination on 

11 what they choose to move forward with or not, 

12 but we have had significant discussions with 

13 the Department of Labor about putting people 

14 in places. The company absolutely will not 

15 put people -- yes, there is some security, but 

16 we certainly do not have what we consider a 

17 roster. We do not believe we have the ability 

18 to differentiate these people. Perhaps if it 

19 comes in as an unknown, we can't, and the 

20 company refuses to, and the Department of 

21 Labor can't put them in places either.
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19 1 DR. MAURO: Sam, you know what I'll 

2 do is, I'll just communicate that to Bill when 

3 he's freed up. Unfortunately, like I said, 

4 he's not available to us right now. He's got 

5 these problems he's dealing with, but I'll 

6 just check in with him, make sure he does take 

a look at your May 16th 7 report and factor that 

8 into his consideration.

9 I don't know how best -- with 

10 respect -- I mean, the best I'm doing right 

11 now is to give you sort of a status of initial 

12 impressions. Is there anything that in order 

13 to -- in light of this conversation, Ted, 

14 would you like us to put anything on the 

15 record by way of a written paper? I think Bill 

16 is pretty far along, but I can't speak to 

17 whether or not -- how carefully he reviewed 

the May 16th 18 report and taking all this into 

19 consideration. 

20 MR. KATZ: John, this is Ted. I 

21 certainly think that you folks, Bill, you, 
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20 1 SC&A needs to complete the report. And by all 

2 means, you know, whatever you learn from this 

3 meeting today factor into how you complete 

4 that report.

5 DR. MAURO: Very good.

6 MR. KATZ: Go into other 

7 documentation or what have you.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes, I don't think 

9 we're far away from being able to put 

10 something in writing, but certainly I would 

11 want to ask Bill to take a look at the May 

12 report, which I didn't do in preparation for 

13 this meeting and address it. It may turn out 

14 that there are -- he did not look closely at 

15 it and come to the same place you did, Sam, or 

16 -- but he may actually have looked at it and 

17 felt differently. So, it's best for us to get 

18 this out and we'll get that our fairly 

19 quickly. My guess is we're not more than a 

20 week away.

21 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay, John. I just 
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21 1 wanted to -- this is Bomber. I want to remind 

2 everyone this is on the Board's agenda for the 

3 meeting in February, so as quick as we can get 

4 it and we can -- 

5 DR. NETON: Well, I'm concerned. 

6 This is Jim. I mean, we're two weeks away from 

7 the meeting. If we get a report in a week or 

8 so, that gives us enough time to incorporate 

9 any revisions into this -- 

10 DR. MAURO: We'll move this as fast 

11 as possible. As soon as I -- I hate to speak 

12 for Bill, but from the way I spoke to him 

13 earlier, the only thing I'm concerned about is 

14 that perhaps he did not look that closely at 

the May 16th 15 work. I think he looked at the 

16 Evaluation Report, and perhaps all this wasn't 

17 -- well, all I can say is that I tried my best 

18 to pass on to you some of the impressions he 

19 left with me this morning. And we will try to 

20 get something out really fast. We realize that 

21 we're in a situation here, that is sort of a 
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22 1 bit unusual.

2 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, I mean, we 

3 had hoped to move this -- 

4 DR. MAURO: I understand.

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: -- with the 

6 Committee here, and certainly what I've seen 

7 from what NIOSH sent us, it seemed to be a 

8 rational approach.

9 DR. MAURO: Yes.

10 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: And my concern 

11 is, I'm not sure we would -- NIOSH doesn't 

12 believe they can do it.

13 DR. MAURO: I know.

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: You're going to 

15 provide documentation that they haven't 

16 already considered to do it. I mean, you can 

17 finish up your report but, I mean, my sense at 

18 this point is what kind of overwhelming --

19 something that NIOSH has overlooked is going 

20 to come out of yours. I mean, I suppose we 

21 could take this to the Board and say the Work 
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23 1 Group heard this and haven't been able to 

2 digest what you did, and circulate it to them 

3 and see -- or I guess we could ask Bill how he 

4 feels. 

5 At this point with what we have in 

6 writing endorse what NIOSH has done, and then 

7 if what you have would convince the whole 

8 Board differently, that can be a discussion at 

9 that meeting.

10 DR. MAURO: I would -- I think a 

11 better -- I'd like to say that the way it was 

12 communicated to me, and the way I just heard 

13 it from Sam, it certainly sounds like Sam did 

14 look very carefully at the ability to -- at 

15 the data and whether it met sufficient 

16 accuracy in his May report, what we just 

17 heard. But at the same time, of course, Bill 

18 has been following this fairly closely, so I'd 

19 like to try to get something together and get 

20 it out to you guys fairly quickly.

21 We're in a very -- this is an 
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24 1 unusual circumstance for us, but this is where 

2 we came out at this point in time. And, 

3 certainly, I don't want to be in a position to 

4 slow things down, but Bill has been following 

5 this, and I think it's important that we 

6 communicate out material. And then, of course, 

7 the Board could weigh the information as you 

8 see fit. 

9 We'll get something out quickly. 

10 Hopefully, I'll be able to reach Bill later 

11 today. He's at the hospital today, and just 

12 let him know that we do need to put something 

13 together. Certainly, we will need to make 

sure we check the May 16th 14 report. And Sam and 

15 the folks on the Work Group, would there be 

16 any problem with Bill talking directly to Sam 

17 in the interim so that we could make sure we 

18 take every -- make sure we have everything in 

19 front of us that we need to be able to put 

20 together something that might be useful to the 

21 Work Group?
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25 1 DR. GLOVER: Just real briefly, I 

2 mean, in November we -- I sent an email out to 

3 the Chair, and I guess I hadn't seen where 

4 they tasked the response. I want to make sure 

5 that I provide a response responsive to the 

6 Working Group in this. So, we have provided 

7 an official public document out there. It is 

8 not trivial to make changes, obviously, to 

9 that, so I want to make sure what mechanism 

10 we're kind of working from, and what the 

11 Working Group would like us to do. One, has 

12 SC&A been asked how they're going to send 

13 this, and what they want in the way of a 

14 response, if anything?

15 DR. MAURO: Well, from my 

16 perspective, my main interest is to make sure 

17 that when we provide our commentary on the 

18 Evaluation Report, that we make sure we take 

19 everything into consideration that has been 

20 put on the record and has been delivered. And 

21 if there's any ambiguity or question that Bill 
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26 1 might have after making sure he checks --

2 reads all that material, which I believe he 

3 probably already has, but if he has an 

4 opportunity just to call you just to 

5 clarification, not for new information. We 

6 understand that it's not our place to call you 

7 to get new information, but to make sure we 

8 understand the information that we're looking 

9 at. And then from there we could put 

10 something out maybe within a matter of days. 

11 You know, I hate to -- 

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I mean, the 

13 reality is with notices and all there is no 

14 time between the next -- to schedule a meeting 

15 of our committee to look at something in 

16 writing new, so I guess I want to ask Ted -- I 

17 mean, as I said, one thing we can do is we can 

18 put it on the overall -- if it is, it's 

19 already on the meeting schedule and have a 

20 discussion if we get the information early 

21 enough.
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27 1 I mean, I don't recall in our 

2 November meeting that when we heard that there 

3 was going to be change and then it came out, 

4 that we charged you to review that.

5 MR. KATZ: No. Andy, this is Ted. 

6 I'm sorry. I think it was asked 

7 MR. COLLINS: 

8 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, but -- 

9 MR. KATZ: -- what became 

10 available. And really, I mean, just some 

11 context here. They received the report very 

12 recently, so they haven't had a lot of time 

13 with it. I think it's perfectly understandable 

14 what's happened here. They had very little 

15 time so they did not have time to produce a 

16 written report. But they were asked to review 

17 it. The Work Group asked them to review it 

18 when it became available.

19 And I think you want to do due 

20 diligence here. I think we want to hear from 

21 SC&A what they learned from their review. It 
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28 1 is on the agenda for the February meeting. I 

2 don't consider that a problem. From what I 

3 hear from John, it's likely we'll have the 

4 report -- certainly we'll have it before the 

5 Board meeting. And it sounds like we might 

6 have it within a week.

7 The Work Group, of course, won't 

8 have deliberated over the latest SC&A report, 

9 but they can come to some judgment without 

10 that report with reservations with respect to 

11 that report which they want to see, I'm sure. 

12 And then it can get discussed at the Board 

13 level so it doesn't necessarily have to hold 

14 anything up. 

15 It could be discussed at the Board 

16 level and resolved there. If the Board wants 

17 you to bring this report back and go into it 

18 more deeply, the Board can decide to do that. 

19 But if the Board after reading the SC&A report 

20 and the SEC Evaluation from DCAS, and the 

21 Board decides we know enough and we can go 
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29 1 forward, that's fine, too.

2 So, I don't think there's a great 

3 problem really. It's just -- 

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Well, I just 

5 wanted to be sure we were not going to run 

6 afoul or have to delay the discussion at the 

7 Board meeting.

8 MR. KATZ: I don't think so. And as 

9 far as John's question about contacting -- it 

10 makes a lot of sense -- 

11 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I would agree.

12 MR. KATZ: -- for Bill to get in 

13 touch with DCAS if he has questions so that 

14 his report be complete and take into 

15 consideration as much as possible, because 

16 that will be most helpful to the full Board in 

17 February.

18 MEMBER FIELD: Andy, this is Bill 

19 Field. Listening to this, I think I agree with 

20 what you first said. I haven't heard anything 

21 today that would prevent the Class being added 
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30 1 from '42 to '47. And there may not be in the 

2 report after they get together and discuss 

3 this, so I think I'm on board with you that we 

4 -- I'm in favor of taking NIOSH's reservation 

5 unless something comes up in the review that 

6 SC&A is going to perform that would indicate 

7 we should look deeper into it so it may just 

8 be as easy as you and I getting together and 

9 just discussing the report before the Board 

10 meeting, so we can maybe even talk to Mark and 

11 come with some sort of Board recommendation, 

12 or Work Group recommendation for the Board.

13 I hate unless we have to take 

14 stuff to the Board and start fresh again 

15 without a recommendation from the Working 

16 Group.

17 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Right. Okay, I 

18 think we've got our way forward. The other is 

19 -- I'm just trying to look through my notes 

20 here. Have all the issues related to denying 

21 the '48 to '53 period been resolved with SC&A?
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31 1 DR. MAURO: Yes. When we originally 

2 reviewed it, we were in concurrence that post 

3 '47 seemed to be in pretty good shape.

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

5 DR. MAURO: So, we're in the 

6 unusual position, perhaps maybe the first time 

7 where we just felt, as I tried to explain, 

8 that there may be reasons why you could do 

9 before it, and for the reasons I just 

10 described. But clearly, Sam has explained that 

11 perhaps we just need to look a little more 

12 closely, and we'll come to the same place that 

13 NIOSH did.

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. I just 

15 wanted to be sure, if we're going to move 

16 forward to the Board with kind of a tentative 

17 recommendation that we've resolved all -- I 

18 mean, this has been on the agenda for a while.

19 DR. MAURO: This is a bit of a 

20 reversal of our position.

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Well, no, I 
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32 1 just wanted to be sure -- my notes here were 

2 that we thought everything was fine that NIOSH 

3 responds to the petition regarding '48 to '53 

4 was appropriate. And I thought we were 

5 supportive of -- 

6 DR. MAURO: Yes. And we are, also.

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: It's just this unusual 

9 place where we might not -- we're finding a 

10 little difficulty in granting the SEC before 

11 '47.

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Right.

13 DR. MAURO: Which is, like I said, 

14 an unusual position for us to be in.

15 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: So, Bill Field, 

16 do we have anything else on this before we 

17 listen to the -- ask if there's public 

18 comments?

19 MEMBER FIELD: No, I'm good with 

20 this one.

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. So, Ted, 
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33 1 let's open it up if there's any public who 

2 want to comment about this?

3 (No response.)

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: If there is, if 

5 you're trying to talk remember to take it off 

6 mute.

7 MR. KATZ: Right. This is Ted. We 

8 may not have any members of the public from 

9 Electro Met on the phone. I don't recall that 

10 anyone spoke up earlier.

11 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

12 MR. KATZ: I think you can -- we 

13 haven't heard anything. I think you can carry 

14 on to United Nuclear.

15 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. So, Bill, 

16 you want to make the motion that you already 

17 sort of did?

18 MEMBER FIELD: You mean for the 

19 Work Group to approve it?

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, 

21 provisionally.
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34 1 MEMBER FIELD: Okay, I'll do that. 

2 I'll make a -- to recommend NIOSH's 

3 recommendation that a Class be added from '42 

4 to '47 and retain the existing recommendation 

5 to deny the Class from '48 to '53, or '58, 

6 however it should be -- 

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, well they 

8 asked, but it's -- yes. Okay, thank you. But 

9 we're provisionally doing that, pending 

10 further discussion. 

11 Okay, with that since there's just 

12 -- I don't -- Mark hasn't come on yet, has he? 

13 So, I -- since you made it, I'll second it. 

14 And I agree with you, so I would say the 

15 motion passes. 

16 So, let's -- with that, let's move 

17 on to United Nuclear, and we'll -- John, we'll 

18 look forward to working rapidly with --

19 DR. MAURO: Yes. No, we will move 

20 very quickly on this. We understand the 

21 situation we put you in, but at the same time 
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35 1 we felt we were given a mandate to -- 

2 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: No, we --

3 that's why we wanted you to -- 

4 DR. MAURO: Yes.

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: -- look at it, 

6 so don't -- you don't need to be apologetic 

7 for anything. I think we can move ahead on 

8 this. We'll see how it works out, and we could 

9 still take a recommendation to the Board. And 

10 if you convince us otherwise, we can also take 

11 that to the Board, as well.

12 So, let's move on to United 

13 Nuclear. 

14 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay, this Bomber, 

15 LaVon Rutherford. I can't help it, habit. 

16 We left the last Work Group 

17 meeting, there was a couple of action items 

18 that we had been given after the Work Group 

19 meeting. And one of the first ones focused 

20 around how dose reconstructions would apply to 

50th percentile versus the 95th 21 percentile of 
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36 1 the distribution for 1961-62.

2 Those -- everyone should recall 

3 that during that period we have a gap of no 

4 bioassay data. We had developed a 

5 distribution that took data before the 1961 

6 period, after the 1962 period, and we 

7 basically worked through that gap period and 

8 came up with a distribution. And we had 

identified a 50th 9 percentile.

10 The SC&A had felt that we should 

be using the 95th 11 percentile, and they brought 

12 up some good points. The one good point is 

13 that there is no bioassay data obviously 

14 during that '61 to '62 period, and the 

15 question came up then if you're applying the 

50th 16 percentile, is there a group of workers 

17 that -- who maybe potentially worked during 

18 that period didn't work on either side of the 

'61 to '62 period that would be given the 50th 19

20 percentile, and they really should probably be 

given the 95th 21 percentile. 
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37 1 We committed to going back and 

2 looking at that. We are still looking at 

3 that. We are going through each claim, one, 

4 to see if we have any claims currently that 

5 actually land in that where they only have 

6 time within that gap period, or they don't 

7 have any monitoring on either side. And we 

8 anticipate completing that analysis probably -

9 - it's actually -- some of the information is 

10 internal review now. We should have a good

11 answer by shortly after the Board meeting, and 

12 we could support a Work Group to discuss I 

13 believe all the remaining issues shortly after 

14 the Board meeting in February.

15 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Just to refresh 

16 my memory, is this also an SEC petition?

17 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, this is an 

18 SEC petition, but I think that -- and there is 

19 -- yes, we do need a Board recommendation one 

20 way or the other, whether they agree with us 

21 or not. 
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38 1 I think we did leave the last Work 

2 Group meeting with the position that at least 

3 between NIOSH and SC&A, both groups felt that 

4 this was not an SEC issue, that this was just 

5 a determination of where -- what part of the 

6 distribution we should be using for this 

7 matter. 

8 DR. MAURO: And I agree. That's --

9 I read the transcript today, had a chance to 

10 talk to Hans who was close to this, and yes. 

11 So, we are in full agreement that this is not 

12 an SEC issue. It's a matter of what protocol 

13 would be used to in your coworker model, the 

14 degree of conservatism that would be built 

15 into it for the very reasons that Sam just 

16 described. And I think everybody is on track 

17 on this one.

18 DR. BEHLING: This is Hans Behling. 

19 I just was going to ask Bomber a couple of 

20 things. I think in the last meeting we agreed 

21 that perhaps you would redo the numbers that I 
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39 1 crunched when I wrote my initial Finding 

2 Number Four, and I gave data in behalf of 

3 Operator AAA and Operator BBB, and came to 

some conclusions that the pre-June 13th 4 , 1963 

5 period, the numbers that are being proposed 

6 for use are considerably lower than what you 

7 would expect if you actually used the bioassay 

8 data, and then backfitted the intake. And as 

9 I've mentioned, in a couple of instances if 

10 you use, for instance, Type M for the Operator 

11 AAA, you would end up underestimating his 

12 intake by approximately 15 fold. And I believe 

13 Jim Neton had mentioned that they would 

14 perhaps redo my numbers just to verify those 

15 numbers to see if those numbers are, in fact, 

16 numbers that they also came up independently 

17 with. So, my question is did -- was anybody 

18 there to look at those numbers to verify my 

19 initial estimate as I identified in Table 4 of 

20 my writeup.

21 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, Hans. I 
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40 1 appreciate you bringing that up. We are 

2 looking at that, and that will be -- again, 

3 we'll be ready to address that, as well, when 

4 we address this whole issue shortly after the 

5 Board meeting in February.

6 DR. BEHLING: Yes. Also, the other 

7 issue that I think was brought up at the very 

8 terminal end of the last meeting was perhaps 

9 for consistency only, is that in the thorium 

10 assigned values as was defined in your White 

11 Paper Number Three, you elected to go to the 

95th 12 percentile value as a default number. And 

13 I guess our question, as raised by John and 

14 myself during the meeting was how can we have 

15 in the same paper two default values, one at 

16 50, the other one is 95 percent. And should 

17 there be some consistency?

18 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well, we want to 

19 remind you, though, that the thorium was based 

20 on air sampling data. And this was a --

21 uranium was based on bioassay, so there is a 
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41 1 difference there. But we will address -- I 

think when we address the 95th versus the 50th 2

3 percentile for the gap, I think that will 

4 hopefully take care of that issue. Okay?

5 DR. MAURO: Okay.

6 MR. RUTHERFORD: Now, the second C7 - you want me to -- Henry, do you want me to 

8 jump to the second issue on that?

9 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, right.

10 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay. The -- 

11 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: It seems like 

12 we're making headway and we're -- 

13 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, the second-- 

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: -- at the '61-

15 '62 issue.

16 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes.

17 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I just wanted 

18 to be sure this was not something that we had 

19 to reopen an SEC petition or something.

20 MR. RUTHERFORD: No.

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Good.
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42 1 MR. RUTHERFORD: The second issue 

2 actually was brought up by Bill during our 

3 discussion on the air data, actually 1962. 

4 Further examination explanation of air 

5 sampling frequency changes for specific 

6 locations during the '61 to '62 period.

7 Bill had asked about the -- why 

8 the change in frequency. I think the example 

9 that was given to us was the green room. If 

10 you looked at the green room in 1961, I think 

11 there were 36 data points. You looked at the 

12 green room in 1962 there were only four data 

13 points. And I think we were just asked to look 

14 back and see if we could understand why the 

15 frequency change. And we are looking into 

16 that.

17 The difficulty is that there's a 

18 number of things that can drive that; one 

19 being, you know, if the actual production work 

20 that was going on during that period changed, 

21 you know, in the green room, then the actual 
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43 1 air monitoring data could be different from 

2 one year to the next.

3 There's a number of issues. We are 

4 looking at that to see if there's any 

5 significance to that, and we will be able to 

6 report on that again shortly after the Board 

7 meeting.

8 MEMBER FIELD: I appreciate that, 

9 Bomber.

10 MR. RUTHERFORD: All right. No 

11 other questions on that. I've talked about -- 

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: What's the 

13 interviews?

14 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, I'm going to 

15 talk on the -- yes, the classified interview. 

16 That is really the big issue. Honestly, we 

17 would have tied everything else up earlier if 

18 it -- we could have gotten this thing 

19 resolved.

20 We have worked for the last two 

21 and a half months on this getting this 
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44 1 interview scheduled. The initial difficulty 

2 we were having was determining the proper 

3 location to conduct the interview, and finding 

4 something that really was amendable to this 

5 individual getting there. Actually, we had 

6 even worked out where we would possibly pay 

7 him to get him to this location to cover some 

8 of the expenses.

9 So, we were initially working on 

10 that. We got that resolved. And then the 

11 individual had to have some surgery, and has 

12 been unavailable to us now for the last couple 

13 of months. In fact, we've had extreme 

14 difficulty contacting the individual. We've 

15 left messages with -- well, we haven't left 

16 messages with him because he doesn't have an 

17 answering machine. We've left messages with 

18 his representative, and we've also talked to 

19 the petitioner who has been trying to contact, 

20 to get in touch with him to see if we can get 

21 this set up. 
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45 1 So, right now -- we will even make 

2 calls again today. We've made calls routinely 

3 to try to get this thing set up to go through. 

4 And I'll remind you, the discussion around the 

5 interview is this individual worked at the 

6 item plant. He felt there was not a lot of 

7 discussion, and I tend to agree with him, 

8 there wasn't a lot of discussion in the 

9 Evaluation Report about the item plant. And he 

10 was an item plant technician who he felt he 

11 could give us some good information that he 

12 was concerned may not have been covered. So, 

13 we are continuing to work on that to get that 

14 interview set up. And I can't tell you much 

15 more than that.

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. Any other 

17 questions?

18 MR. RUTHERFORD: I have one more 

19 thing I wanted to bring up.

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, go ahead. 

21 Go.
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46 1 MR. RUTHERFORD: We did receive 

2 correspondence from a claimant concerning 

3 their -- this claimant's husband who had 

4 worked at United Nuclear, and some concerns by 

5 that claimant on the -- at least the thorium 

6 portion of our dose reconstruction process.

7 The claimant had indicated that 

8 they felt that there was no monitoring, and 

9 that because there -- and that we had used 

10 actually air data for other radioactive 

11 materials to reconstruct exposures.

12 I wish that individual was on line 

13 right now, but I do want to get it on record 

14 that -- and, of course, we do have air 

15 monitoring data for the actual thorium work. 

16 That included not only general area samples, 

17 but a significant portion of the 210 samples 

18 were breathing zone samples which are a direct 

19 indication of worker exposures.

20 So, we did have that information. 

21 I wanted to clarify that to them, and since 
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47 1 she is not on the phone call now I will make 

2 sure that I contact her and at least pass that 

3 along to her and clarify these points during 

4 the conversation. 

5 She also had provided us a copy of 

6 an article -- actually, it was a study on 

7 thorium exposure to the liver. And I'm going 

8 to pass on to somebody a little smarter than 

9 me when it comes to this to discuss this. I'll 

10 pass this on to Jim Neton.

11 DR. NETON: Okay. Yes, this Jim. 

12 She attached -- the person attached a copy of 

13 a review article from the Journal of Medicine

14 that was printed or issued September 2007. The 

15 title is "Thorium dioxide-related 

16 haemangiosarcoma of the liver." And I'm not 

17 exactly clear why it was included other than 

18 to point out that thorium does cause -- has 

19 been demonstrated to cause cancer in the 

20 liver. And we certainly don't have any issue 

21 with that.
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48 1 It was actually a very interesting 

2 article. It was a person who had died of liver 

3 cancer, haemangiosarcoma of the liver, and 

4 upon autopsy they realized that the person had 

5 a thorotrast injection which was fairly 

6 commonly used years ago to try to help in 

7 imaging certain organs, particularly the liver 

8 and bone. And the point of the article was 

9 these liver cancers are rare, but they do 

10 occur because of this thorotrast injection. 

11 And we note that that is true, so there's 

12 nothing more to say on that other than our 

13 risk models do account for the fact that liver 

14 cancer is a possible outcome of thorium 

15 exposure. That's all I have to say about 

16 unless there's any questions.

17 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: No, I don't 

18 have any. 

19 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well, I think 

20 that's it for United Nuclear for us. Again, we 

21 should be able to address the technical issues 
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49 1 shortly after the Board meeting. Hopefully, we 

2 can get some kind of information from this 

3 person to interview that I can give you -- at 

4 least give you a better feel for when this 

5 interview will be conducted. I know that SC&A 

6 is standing by to support us with it. And as 

7 soon as we get some more information, we'll 

8 get to it.

9 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, thank 

10 you. So, we should be able to wrap that up 

11 fairly soon. Okay. I don't -- are there any 

12 public comments on United Nuclear? I don't 

13 think anyone signed up, but now is your chance 

14 if you want to comment on any of these issues.

15 Okay. With that, let's move on to 

16 Baker-Perkins. 

17 MR. ALLEN: Who do you want to take 

18 this? This is Dave Allen. I can discuss the 

19 White Paper I sent since our last meeting.

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: That's a good 

21 idea.
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50 1 MR. ALLEN: And SC&A has responded 

2 to that. And, John, you can correct me if I'm 

3 wrong, I think that was Bill Thurber.

4 DR. MAURO: No, that was actually a 

5 team of us. I was very much involved, and Aris 

6 Papadopoulos is on the line. Bill is also 

7 involved to a certain extent, because he's 

8 involved with a lot of AWE work. But, yes, 

9 we're in a position where we could discuss 

10 with you our review of your paper. 

11 Our review actually came out on 

January 17th 12 , about a month ago, and it was 

13 very favorable. Basically, we completely 

14 support -- we reviewed your White Paper. And 

15 this might be an easy one, and for the reasons 

16 described in our report we concur completely 

17 with your position on all matters.

18 MR. ALLEN: Okay. I don't want to 

19 belabor it any more unless Dr. Anderson wants 

20 to hear any briefing on the White Paper.

21 DR. NETON: Maybe Dave could 
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51 1 summarize what the crux of the White Paper 

2 issue was.

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, since we 

4 do have some public comment it might be 

5 helpful to get on the record just a quick 

6 summary of it.

7 MR. ALLEN: Okay. A real short 

8 brief summary -- 

9 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Real short.

10 MR. ALLEN: We at one point had an 

11 appendix to TBD-6001 for Baker-Perkins. We 

12 cancelled TBD-6001 I believe last year and 

13 rewrote a standalone Technical Basis Document 

14 for Baker-Perkins. Before we could do that, 

15 SC&A did a review of the appendix.

16 After that, I suggested that they 

17 review the new TBD because we did have to make 

18 some changes, and SC&A did do that. And I 

19 don't recall the date that that was done. 

20 Actually, I believe that was November, 

21 submitted their review of this TBD. 
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52 1 We discussed it in our last Work 

2 Group meeting which was towards the end of 

3 November of last year, and during that, they 

4 had a few findings or questions. And it was 

5 agreed during the Work Group meeting that I 

6 would put together between the air sample data 

7 and a log of the testing that was actually 

8 done at Baker-Perkins, we could put together 

9 a time line of the short five-day operation 

10 that occurred there.

11 I did that in a White Paper, sent 

12 it to the Work Group, and SC&A reviewed that 

13 White Paper, as John just mentioned, and sent 

14 the review to the Working Group last month.

15 And, in short, it was like I said 

16 approximately a five-day operation to test a 

17 Ko-Kneader that they wanted to mix uranium 

18 trioxide with a water and ammonia mixture. 

19 They tested it on a P-type Ko-Kneader and a K20 type Ko-Kneader. Neither was apparently 

21 successful for -- I think it was the heating 
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53 1 is where they had a problem. The material kept 

2 heating up and they couldn't do it on a 

3 continuous basis.

4 But, in any case, we had air 

5 samples for the setup, for the testing itself, 

6 and then for the decontamination of the 

7 equipment. And with the test -- the log of 

8 the test itself, it included flow rates of dry 

9 material going into and out of -- or dry 

10 material and wet material coming in and out of 

11 the machine, and the times for all the flow 

12 rates. And the White Paper puts together all 

13 of that to come up with a total amount of 

14 material that went through the machine, which 

15 was equivalent to approximately a 55-gallon 

16 drum of UO3, uranium trioxide, which was one 

17 of the questions SC&A had. And as John said, 

18 in their report they seem to be satisfied with 

19 the answer we came up with.

20 The last thing we should mention 

21 is part of that White Paper, they were 
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54 1 somewhat critical of the intake estimates in 

2 our TBD. And we agreed that there was some 

3 issues with that intake estimate, and 

4 definitely something that could be 

5 misinterpreted. 

6 The White Paper redid that 

7 estimate to make it more -- I can't think of 

8 the word I'm looking for, but it was more 

9 based on the physical aspects of the test 

10 versus just the mathematics of the air samples 

11 themselves. And some difference, not a 

12 substantial difference, but there is some 

13 differences in the intake estimate. And that 

14 then has to go into a revision for the TBD.

15 Since we're in the position we're 

16 in, we felt it was worth SC&A and the Work 

17 Group weighing in on the White Paper to decide 

18 if there's any more issues, or if that's it, 

19 and then we'll revise the TBD. How is that for 

20 short?

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: That sounds 
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55 1 good. Thank you. Bill Field, do you have any 

2 questions?

3 MEMBER FIELD: No, but thanks for 

4 the good summary.

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, I think 

6 that's always helpful to have that, especially 

7 to have it in the written record, because most 

8 people only look back at the most recent 

9 minutes.

10 Okay. If there's no other 

11 comments, I'd like to open it up to the public 

12 if you have comments. Ted, do you have 

13 specific names of people who are interested?

14 MR. KATZ: I thought I heard -- I 

15 thought someone from Baker-Perkins did join us 

16 from the public at the outset of this meeting.

17 MS. MURAWSKI: Yes, I did.

18 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Go ahead.

19 MS. MURAWSKI: Is Dr. Anderson 

20 available?

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, I'm here.
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56 1 MS. MURAWSKI: Okay. Dr. Anderson, 

2 you did receive my letter, I had some concerns 

3 for that with your Work Group.

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

5 MS. MURAWSKI: Yes? Okay.

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: And we shared 

7 that with the Work Group and the Board.

8 MS. MURAWSKI: Oh, you did?

9 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

10 MS. MURAWSKI: We haven't been 

11 notified of any meeting. If I didn't check the 

12 website I wouldn't have known even about this 

13 one. I mean, you're doing White Papers and 

14 dose reconstructions and no one is being 

15 notified of anything. 

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Ted, do you 

17 want to comment?

18 MR. KATZ: Well, I'm not sure where 

19 the ball is falling through, because when we 

20 received your email, I'm certain that I 

21 forwarded that to Josh Kinman at NIOSH, who 
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57 1 would have given you information about this 

2 meeting come up, and so on. But Josh doesn't 

3 work for me. I don't -- I can't verify 

4 anything, but I do know that we've been 

5 communicating about this. We shared your 

6 letter with Josh and others, so I'm not sure 

7 where the ball could have fallen through.

8 MS. MURAWSKI: Okay. I kind of have 

9 a question. I know any time you can screw with 

10 the data any way you want. There was one paid 

11 claim to Baker-Perkins, so why does this claim 

12 make a difference from the other claims that 

13 have been filed?

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: That wouldn't 

15 be something that the Board would have 

16 information on. I don't know if NIOSH does.

17 MS. MURAWSKI: Okay. So, who would 

18 I contact at the Board?

19 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I mean, the 

20 Board doesn't look at individual, or approve 

21 the individual claims. That's all handled 
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58 1 through NIOSH and Department of Labor.

2 MS. MURAWSKI: Do you have a point 

3 of contact there that I could contact?

4 MR. KATZ: Yes. This is Ted Katz 

5 again. Again, Josh Kinman is normally the 

6 person who interacts, I believe, on the -- so, 

7 in your case with claimants, this is -- are 

8 you speaking with respect to a claim -- your 

9 claim?

10 MS. MURAWSKI: My claim, any of the 

11 other claims that have been filed with Baker12 Perkins.

13 MR. KATZ: Right. But, I mean, you 

14 wouldn't have a right to information about 

15 other people's claims, only about your own.

16 MS. MURAWSKI: It appears it's just 

17 different dose reconstructions for different 

18 claims that are made.

19 MR. KATZ: I guess -- I think the 

20 right point of contact if you have questions 

21 in general about how dose reconstructions are 
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59 1 being done for Baker-Perkins, again would be 

2 Josh Kinman. And someone at DCAS can give you 

3 a number to call to get a hold of Josh.

4 MS. MURAWSKI: That's K-I-D-M-A-N?

5 MR. KATZ: Kinman, K-I-N-M-A-N.

6 MS. MURAWSKI: Okay.

7 MR. KATZ: But someone on the phone 

8 from DCAS please speak up and let her know who 

9 to contact. 

10 MR. ALLEN: We'll get Josh to 

11 contact her. I thought he -- we thought he had 

12 contacted her about this meeting, too, but 

13 we'll double check on that, and we'll let Josh 

14 contact her to find out specifically what 

15 information she wants there. But we cannot, 

16 as you said, discuss other people's claims 

17 with her. I'm not sure if Josh will be the one 

18 that will be able to answer your question 

19 specifically, but he can hopefully narrow it 

20 down and get you to the -- then transfer you 

21 to the right person. 
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60 1 MS. MURAWSKI: Okay. 

2 MR. KATZ: Right.

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Right.

4 MR. KATZ: Thank you, David.

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Any other 

6 comments people have? Hopefully, we can get 

7 this communication worked out better. You just 

8 -- you need to know all of the -- that the 

9 Board does not communicate in writing and 

10 things directly to individuals, so like your 

11 letter would be shared with everyone. It may 

12 get discussed at our larger Board meeting, but 

13 typically we would -- most of these questions 

14 would be -- that you had are ones that would 

15 be addressed by NIOSH, not by the Board. So, 

16 it was forwarded to NIOSH. I don't know if 

17 there's anyone from NIOSH that can -- wants to 

18 comment on some of her points? Most of these 

19 are related to dose reconstructions.

20 MR. ALLEN: Yes, this is Dave 

21 Allen. I can try to go through some of the 
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61 1 points in this letter, but I mean most of them 

2 actually weren't so much related to dose 

3 reconstruction in the form of what the value 

4 should be. It seemed to be many of them were 

5 related to the idea that whether or not we 

6 could accurately do any kind of a dose 

7 reconstruction. 

8 And, Ms. Murawski, you can correct 

9 me if I'm wrong, that was the impression I got 

10 from -- as the general overview of the letter. 

11 But, in any case, that is kind of the opposite 

12 of where we're usually at. That's an SEC-type 

13 of issue, and I believe there was an SEC 

14 petition filed for this site at one point. 

15 And that one had been decided already to deny 

16 the SEC, I believe largely because of the 

17 five-day operation. 

18 MS. MURAWSKI: What do you mean a 

19 five-day operation? I was told when I worked 

20 with Laurie Breyer to put a full year in 

21 there.
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62 1 MR. ALLEN: I think at the time --

2 the Department of Labor often will just put 

3 down the years of operation. And at the time 

4 they had to cover a year of the -- or they 

5 just put down 1956 as the covered period. 

6 After that time, the more specific 

7 information came out and they revised that to 

May 14th 8 through May -- I'll get the right 

9 date here. 

 MS. MURAWSKI: 19th 10 or something 

11 like that, I think.

12 MR. ALLEN: Yes. Essentially, it 

13 was the one particular week in May of 1956, is 

14 what they revised the covered period for. But, 

15 in any case, as far as the TBD goes, the 

16 Technical Basis Document, the issues of 

17 concern for the Technical Basis Document is 

18 what values we're using, and whether we're 

19 correctly analyzing the data, should we use a 

20 different value or analyze it differently. 

21 It separates somewhat from the 
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63 1 issue of whether or not it can even be done. 

2 Whether or not it can be done is an SEC issue, 

3 and they would require a petition for an SEC, 

4 et cetera. 

5 And, honestly, I think all the 

6 issues with Baker and Perkins have been 

7 addressed by the Board, and a decision has 

8 been made on that. If you feel there is 

9 something that was not addressed in that 

10 Evaluation Report and that whole SEC 

11 evaluation, you can file another petition. If 

12 we find that it's something that was addressed 

13 then the petition wouldn't qualify for 

14 evaluation. But you can -- you are free to do 

15 that with some sort of issue that you feel 

16 wasn't addressed, or with new information if 

17 you have that at any time.

18 Other than that, as far as this 

19 particular Work Group and working on the 

20 Technical Basis Document issues themselves, I 

21 can't say I could pick out a part of your 
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64 1 letter where you were disagreeing with the 

2 number and felt it should be a different kind 

3 of number.

4 MS. MURAWSKI: I guess I'm looking 

5 at the claim that was paid. I have a copy of 

6 it, which you have in the letter. Why were 

7 there different values based on that claim 

8 versus my claim?

9 MR. ALLEN: I can't really discuss 

10 the individual claim, but in general I can say 

11 that when the program was starting out we did 

12 claims with some information, and then as new 

13 information came to light, we revised our 

14 methodology. And any time we did claims with 

15 some gaps in information we tried to fill 

16 those gaps with favorable assumptions. So, 

17 it's fairly often that when we get enough 

18 information to fill those gaps adequately, 

19 it's not unusual for the estimates to be 

20 reduced to -- based on a more robust analysis, 

21 or better information. I don't know if that 
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65 1 satisfies you or not. 

2 MS. MURAWSKI: Well, I'll look at 

3 it through more -- and when is the next Board 

4 meeting then?

5 DR. NETON: It's at the end of 

6 February.

 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: The 28th 7 and -- 

 DR. NETON: The 29th 8 . 

 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: The 29

th 9 in 

10 Oakland, California. 

11 MS. MURAWSKI: Okay.

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: And I think 

13 there will be opportunity to call in there, 

14 won't there?

15 MR. KATZ: Yes, there will be 

16 public comment on the first evening, if you 

17 want to do that. The Board isn't taking up 

18 Baker-Perkins at the February Board meeting, 

19 but that doesn't mean that you can't comment 

20 on Baker-Perkins even though it's not on the 

21 agenda to be discussed by the full Board.
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66 1 I mean, one thing that will happen 

2 probably is, Dr. Anderson -- he'll report on 

3 the Work Group activities including this, let 

4 the Board know where things stand. 

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Just to 

6 summarize, as far as our Work Group 

7 activities, it seems to me all of the TBD 

8 issues are now closed. Bill Field, do you 

9 agree with that?

10 MEMBER FIELD: As far as I can 

11 tell.

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes. So, it 

13 seems to me as it relates to the TBD, our --

14 and since this isn't going to be until the 

15 June meeting formally, we can check with 

16 others to see if they disagree, but I guess I 

17 would -- I'm prepared to say from the 

18 Committee standpoint and the review process as 

19 it relates to the TBD and the conversion from 

20 an appendix at 6001 to a standalone, we're 

21 satisfied that's been completed, and 
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67 1 descriptive terms and all is sufficient and 

2 adequate. So, Bill Field do you agree with 

3 that, I think we can make that a motion.

4 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, I agree.

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: And then that 

6 will be ready to put on the agenda in June. 

7 And I'll report on that out in Oakland. So, 

8 I'll second that and we're all in agreement, 

9 so basically -- not basically, but the TBD is 

10 now complete, as long as the issues we've all 

11 discussed, we haven't seen a revised TBD but 

12 that will be the last thing that we will want 

13 to keep on a tickler file to be sure that the 

14 written document is finalized. 

15 So, are there any other issues? 

16 And a question for you, Ted. Do we have any 

17 other sites on the 6001 that we need to --

18 these three are pretty well completed, so I 

19 just don't remember what else we have that we 

20 need to -- we may just want to alert those 

21 public that are on the phone what one may be 
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68 1 coming up.

2 MR. KATZ: Sure, Andy, this is Ted. 

3 So, we do have -- we've actually made great 

4 progress with this Work Group. We also have 

5 DuPont Deepwater.

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, that's 

7 right. Yes.

8 MR. KATZ: We haven't discussed 

9 that yet, but that would come next.

10 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

11 DR. MAURO: And, Ted, just to point 

12 out, SC&A has reviewed that Site Profile and 

13 we did file our findings and a report to the 

14 full Board, so it's really -- I guess the ball 

15 is in NIOSH's court to take a look at those 

16 findings.

17 MR. KATZ: Right. And we want to 

18 have an initial response through DCAS in 

19 advance of whatever we need to discuss.

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Is this a TBD 

21 or a SEC?
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69 1 DR. MAURO: TBD.

2 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes. Do we have 

3 any other SEC -- 

4 MR. KATZ: I think that's it for 

5 this Work Group.

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay.

7 MR. KATZ: So, do you want to try 

8 to schedule for a Work Group meeting that 

9 would perhaps take up DuPont, and put to bed 

10 the last issues with United Nuclear?

11 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I would say 

12 let's try to do that probably without -- I 

13 don't know the DuPont issues. Is that 

14 something we ought to have a face-to-face?

15 MR. KATZ: That's a good question 

16 for John, I think, Mauro.

17 DR. MAURO: You know, I haven't 

18 looked at it in a while because it wasn't on 

19 the agenda. But I do remember we did -- it was 

20 not -- it wasn't something -- it was something 

21 of significance. We did have a number of 
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70 1 comments.

2 I could take a look at it. I 

3 haven't looked at it since we prepared it a 

4 while back, so I don't know if we have any 

5 comments there that are going to require a 

6 face-to-face. 

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: We can have a 

8 spreadsheet with all sorts of comments and 

9 listings. It's hard to do that.

10 DR. MAURO: I could probably look 

11 it up real quickly while we're -- 

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: No, we aren't 

13 going to schedule anything until after the 

14 Board meeting.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes, okay. I was just 

16 going to go look it up under my -- I'm 

17 actually in front of my computer right now, 

18 and in about one minute I could probably check 

19 to see if there's anything of great -- okay. 

20 I'm having a little trouble tracking it down. 

21 I wish I could give you -- I can't give you an 
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71 1 answer right now.

2 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Let's send out 

3 an email. You sort of know when the other Work 

4 Groups are meeting, and when NIOSH folks are 

5 available, so let's look for probably March6 April.

7 MR. KATZ: Right. I'll take care of 

8 that once John looks into this question, and 

9 we have a sense from DCAS that -- well, we 

10 already know that they'll be ready by some 

11 time in March for United Nuclear.

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

13 MR. KATZ: That sounds good. We'll 

14 take care of that.

15 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Good. Are there 

16 any other issues people have? And, Ted, I'm 

17 not asking our group to take on anything more. 

18 Okay. We'll try to touch base with Mark on 

19 this, as well, probably before the meeting so 

20 that he -- you can kind of bring him up to 

21 speed.
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72 1 MR. KATZ: That would be great. 

2 Thank you, Andy. 

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: So, with that 

4 if there's no other issues, I think we can 

5 adjourn. Anyone else on the phone have any 

6 last comments?

7 DR. NETON: None here.

8 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. So, with 

9 that we'll adjourn, and appreciate everybody 

10 calling in, and I think we're making great 

11 progress. And we'll look forward to the 

12 writeup prior to the meeting.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes, we'll get 

14 something -- I know that this is a hot potato. 

15 We'll get something -- 

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, Electro Met 

18 quickly as possible.

19 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: That's great. 

20 That's really our only major pressing issue 

21 right now. Thanks a lot, John. 
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73 1 DR. MAURO: Bye-bye.

2 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

3 matter went off the record at 3:10 p.m.)