This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Idaho National Laboratory/Argonne 

National Laboratory-West (INL/ANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 

U.S.C. § 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the INL Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 1 

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

IDAHO NATIONAL LABORATORY/ARGONNE NATIONAL

LABORATORY-WEST WORK GROUP

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

SEPTEMBER 8, 2016

+ + + + +

The Work Group convened via 

teleconference at 10:30 a.m. Eastern Time, Phillip 

Schofield, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Chairman

JOSIE BEACH, Member

JAMES M. MELIUS, Member

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor

BOB BARTON, SC&A

RON BUCHANAN, SC&A

PETE DARNELL, DCAS 

MITCH FINDLEY, ORAU Team

BRIAN GLECKLER, ORAU Team

STU HINNEFELD, DCAS

JENNY LIN, HHS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

AMY MELDRUM, SC&A

JIM NETON, DCAS

STEVE OSTROW, SC&A

JOHN STIVER, SC&A

TIM TAULBEE, DCAS
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Idaho National Laboratory/Argonne 

National Laboratory-West (INL/ANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 

U.S.C. § 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

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Contents 

Welcome and Roll Call ............................ 4

NIOSH and SC&A Updates on Current Activities ..... 6

Work Group Discussion: Priorities/Plans ......... 13

Reactor Studies and/or Other Activities ......... 13

Adjourn ......................................... 68
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 10:29 a.m.

3 Welcome and Roll Call

4 MR. KATZ: Welcome, everybody. This 

5 is the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker 

6 Health. It's the INL/ANL-West Work Group. I 

7 think this is not a very long meeting today, but 

8 we're trying to address some priorities.

9 The agenda for the meeting is posted on 

10 the NIOSH website under the Board's schedule of 

11 meetings section, today's date. The agenda is 

12 there. There are not other materials to go with 

13 it because there have not been other materials 

14 distributed. But for anyone on the line who might 

15 be interested, one of the things we're talking 

16 about today is priorities with respect -- I think 

17 we're talking about today -- is priorities with 

18 respect to doing studies of reactors and 

19 feasibility of dose reconstruction for the 

20 different reactors with the current methods that 

21 we have.
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1 And the two papers related to that were 

2 brought up and discussed, briefly at least, at the 

3 last INL Work Group meeting, which was back on, I 

4 think, August 4th, I believe -- 2nd or 4th. So if 

5 you want, you can go on that NIOSH website for that 

6 date, schedule of meetings, and those papers are 

7 posted, not that I would expect people to read them 

8 as we're having the discussion, but they are there 

9 afterwards if you're interested in those papers. 

10 There is one from NIOSH, and there is one from SC&A.

11 So with that all said, then, let me just 

12 get into roll call. And let's begin with Board 

13 Members now. Everyone else, please speak to 

14 conflict of interest. My Board Members don't have 

15 conflicts for this site, so I'll just say that to 

16 them. But let's see who is on the line.

17 (Roll call.) 

18 MR. KATZ: Alright. So that takes 

19 care of things. We have a lot of staff and so on 

20 on the line, so please everyone remember to mute 

21 your phones, except when you're addressing the 
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1 group, and *66 to mute your phones.

2 And Phil, it's your meeting.

3 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Okay. As far as 

4 the reactors go, I would like to here start off with 

5 SC&A and their response to the White Paper that was 

6 put out by NIOSH on the prioritization of OTIB-54 

7 evaluation. 

8 NIOSH and SC&A Updates on Current Activities

9 MR. STIVER: Okay. This is John 

10 Stiver. I guess I can kind of lead off and let 

11 Steve kind of jump in.

12 We are basically finished with a 

13 response paper to NIOSH's concerns that Tim raised 

14 at the earlier meeting. And we've also, in 

15 conjunction with that, done a comparison, you know, 

16 checked on the claimant, the NOCTS website and so 

17 forth, to identify the numbers of personnel and, 

18 basically, the dose ranges that they would have 

19 been subjected to over periods of time for the 

20 different reactors of concern.

21 Steve, I guess you could kind of give 
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1 a little cameo about that. Before he does, though, 

2 I can say it is -- you should have a copy of it, 

3 you know, should have it for the Work Group, 

4 probably sometime next week.

5 DR. OSTROW: Okay. Hi, this is Steve. 

6 We pretty much finished our paper, as John was 

7 saying. It just has to go into final editing and, 

8 you know, clearance, et cetera, et cetera, et 

9 cetera, but it should be with the Work Group 

10 shortly. 

11 Just a little bit of quick history, if 

12 people don't remember these things. We had put 

13 out, in June and July, an INL Reactor 

14 Prioritization Report and an ANL-West Reactor 

15 Prioritization Report, two separate reports, with 

16 our thoughts on what priority NIOSH should address 

17 some detailed issues we've had with the 

18 applicability of OTIB-54 to model reactors.

19 NIOSH subsequently, on July 28th, 

20 issued a proposal -- Tim Taulbee put it out -- a 

21 proposal responding to our report on what the 
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1 reactor priorities should be. And they presented 

2 it at the last Work Group meeting, which was August 

3 2nd. And they had made the good suggestion to 

4 consolidate the INL and ANL-West reactors, since 

5 it's basically the same type of technical work they 

6 would be doing for all the reactors and no sense 

7 in keeping it separate.

8 And they had made I think it was eight 

9 recommendations altogether. In some cases, they 

10 accepted our list of prioritization, our high 

11 priorities. In a few cases, they didn't think that 

12 it was correct, and in a few cases, they had sort 

13 of a compromise. 

14 At the August 2nd Work Group meeting, 

15 the Work Group asked SC&A to respond to NIOSH's 

16 report. And this would basically set the 

17 blueprint for how NIOSH would go ahead and evaluate 

18 the reactors, you know, according to OTIB-54, which 

19 would require apparently a lot of technical work 

20 using the ORIGEN code, et cetera, et cetera.

21 The Work Group also asked SC&A, in 
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1 addition to considering the technical aspects and 

2 neutronics, to also look at what's the potential 

3 for radiation exposure of personnel. You know, 

4 you can have an extreme case with a reactor that 

5 is way outside the bounds of OTIB-54, but the 

6 potential for exposing personnel is very low, so 

7 that shouldn't be given a high priority. On the 

8 other hand, you might have another reactor, at the 

9 other extreme, which is outside of OTIB-54, but not 

10 tremendously, but it had a big potential for 

11 exposing people, so that might be given a higher 

12 priority.

13 So we did our report. It's unfortunate 

14 we didn't get it to you before this meeting. In 

15 two parts. I took a look at NIOSH's proposals with 

16 respect to the neutronics. And Bob Barton went 

17 ahead and did a deep dive looking at dosimetry 

18 records, et cetera, to see what the potential was 

19 for exposure of personnel. 

20 And in our response in this report, 

21 which you don't have in front of you, we agreed with 
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1 the NIOSH with some of the cases, and we disagreed 

2 with some of the other ones, some of their 

3 proposals.

4 So, I don't know if it's really proper 

5 at this time -- and John, you can weigh in. I could 

6 give results over the phone right now, but we didn't 

7 actually finalize the report yet, and the Board 

8 does not have it in front of them. What do you 

9 think about that? Should I actually just read off 

10 the results? 

11 MR. KATZ: Can I -- this is Ted. 

12 DR. OSTROW: Ted, yeah.

13 MR. KATZ: Maybe, if the Work Group 

14 Members don't object, I can make a suggestion. I 

15 think, right, no one has it in front of them, but 

16 I think this would be then an opportunity still, 

17 if you can explain things with sufficient detail, 

18 maybe it is an opportunity for NIOSH to get 

19 clarification on matters that may not be clear to 

20 them, and that may save some time down the road. 

21 I don't know. It depends on how complicated all 
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1 of this is, but that's --

2 DR. OSTROW: No, our summary response 

3 is -- we have one of our tables, Table 5, which I 

4 have in front of me, actually. And I could go 

5 through the eight NIOSH recommendations and our 

6 response, and our responses are fairly short. I

7 mean, I think could cover the whole thing in about 

8 15 minutes, probably, or 10 minutes. 

9 MR. KATZ: Yes, we have the time, 

10 Steve, unless the Work Group Members don't want to 

11 go down this road. 

12 MEMBER MELIUS: Well, this is Jim 

13 Melius. While I don't have any objections to 

14 hearing a summary of it, I'm not about to make any 

15 recommendations or any decisions until I've seen 

16 a report. 

17 MR. KATZ: Right, and I wasn't --

18 MEMBER MELIUS: And so that should be 

19 understood, and I don't want to get into a long 

20 debate about, you know, results. And, frankly, I 

21 think NIOSH should have the opportunity to also see 
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1 this report, so that, before we can discuss 

2 anything in terms of priorities on reactors, I 

3 think both NIOSH and the Work Group need an 

4 opportunity to review the report.

5 MR. KATZ: Right. And just to be 

6 clear, Jim, I wasn't suggesting anything 

7 otherwise. I was just -- sometimes, whichever 

8 side, SC&A or NIOSH, they need clarifications about 

9 how one got to whatever conclusion one got to, and 

10 sometimes it's a good way to do it.

11 MEMBER MELIUS: No, I wasn't objecting 

12 to doing it, I just wanted it understood up-front 

13 that we weren't going to -- I wasn't prepared to 

14 act on this.

15 MR. KATZ: Right.

16 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee. I 

17 do have a question along the lines of what you're 

18 talking about, Ted, because I do have some 

19 confusion on the reports that had come out 

20 previously. I saw John Stiver sent an email 

21 earlier this week, and it was bringing up some of 
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1 the MTR concerns, as well as Initial Engine Test 

2 #10, and I guess you were correct, or partially 

3 correct, in your email, John, that we, NIOSH, 

4 didn't address those as part of our response. And 

5 that was because I was under the, I guess, 

6 misunderstanding that the Reactor Prioritization 

7 Rev. 1 was the final for INL, and the ANL one was 

8 the final for ANL. So we were just working off of 

9 those two reports and had not gone back to that 

10 November report.

11 And so my question is, this next report 

12 that you guys are coming out with with all of this 

13 rolled together, does it combine all three of those 

14 reports from SC&A, or is it just the most two recent 

15 ones? 

16 Work Group Discussion: Priorities/Plans

17 Reactor Studies and/or Other Activities

18 DR. OSTROW: Tim, the report that we 

19 have right now that we're working on just has the 

20 two latest reports. It doesn't include the one 

21 that I had done on TRA, where we looked at a few 
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1 of the reactors, and the one that John Mauro did 

2 on TAN. It does not include all of that in it 

3 because I think the way it evolved is that, after 

4 we did the TRA and the TAN reports, we were told 

5 by the Work Group, whatever, we decided to go ahead 

6 and look at the reactors that weren't included in 

7 those two earlier reports, so there might have been 

8 a little confusion here.

9 And to tell you the truth, what happened 

10 is that, when I was writing this latest report, it 

11 dawned on me, you know, it sort of occurred to me, 

12 jogged my memory, that we had those two earlier 

13 reports where we addressed some TRA- and

14 TAN-specific issues. And I had written an email 

15 to John Stiver just to, you know, sort of put it 

16 on the table that we should also figure out, since, 

17 you know, today we're figuring out where we're 

18 going to go forward, that this shouldn't fall 

19 through the cracks, it should be addressed 

20 somewhere. So that's a little bit what happened.

21 DR. TAULBEE: But could I ask that that 
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1 get rolled into this report so that we have a kind 

2 of complete finalization? Because they all are 

3 kind of similar here of how we are applying OTIB-54, 

4 and so I'd love to hear what the Work Group's 

5 priority is for addressing all of them, not just 

6 these last two, but also those previous two reports 

7 from November. 

8 DR. OSTROW: That would be okay with 

9 me. It would delay our getting out the latest 

10 report by a few days to roll it into it. John 

11 Stiver, what do you think?

12 MR. STIVER: You know, to the extent 

13 that it kind of puts everything on the table in the 

14 one report, as opposed to having to deal with the 

15 time lag and the types of things that were going 

16 on since last year, it would probably be -- I think 

17 it'd be better to just go ahead and roll them all 

18 into one.

19 DR. OSTROW: Okay. So just to be clear 

20 with the Work Group, this will probably delay 

21 things like a week or two. 
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1 MEMBER ROESSLER: This is Gen. I 

2 think it would be worth the time to do it that way.

3 DR. OSTROW: Okay. 

4 MR. KATZ: Okay, Steve, go ahead. 

5 Thank you. 

6 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I have no 

7 objection to that.

8 DR. OSTROW: Okay. Okay, so we'll go 

9 ahead and do that. We have the two original 

10 reports, so we should be able to roll it in. It's 

11 just a question of, you know, rewriting and 

12 formatting a little bit so it all hangs together.

13 Alright. So let me just go now, just 

14 for future reference, this is Table 5 of our latest 

15 report that people haven't seen. And we respond 

16 to NIOSH's eight points and their recommendations. 

17 The first one is simple: NIOSH proposed 

18 merging INL and ANL-West high priority category 

19 reactors for the evaluation of OTIB-54 

20 applicability. So, we concur with that. That 

21 will roll them all together.
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1 Okay. Number two, NIOSH proposes that 

2 the Loss-of-Fluid Test Facility, LOFT, be removed 

3 from consideration for evaluation of OTIB-54 

4 applicability at this time due to nuclear 

5 operations not commencing until December '78. 

6 And our response is -- I have to read 

7 our response here. Okay. SC&A recognizes that 

8 the first five LOFT experiments were non-nuclear 

9 thermal hydraulic experiments, and the potential 

10 for radiation exposure did not occur until December 

11 '78, which is after the INL SEC period. 

12 SC&A believes that, given this facility's size, 

13 long operating history, beyond-design-basis 

14 operating scenarios, and potential to have exposed 

15 a significant number of personnel, the LOFT reactor 

16 merits a more detailed examination with respect to 

17 whether it can be adequately modeled by OTIB-54, 

18 and such an examination could be conducted as a Site 

19 Profile exercise.

20 So, this is just to keep track of it. 

21 Perhaps it's not an SEC issue because it's outside 
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1 the time period, but we shouldn't lose this, the 

2 LOFT reactor. We should make a note somewhere, 

3 wherever we make notes on these things, that it 

4 might be a Site Profile issue. I'm not sure how 

5 we deal with that. 

6 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim. Could I 

7 interject here for a second?

8 DR. OSTROW: Yes.

9 DR. TAULBEE: I fully agree, and I 

10 think the Work Group can easily move this to a TBD 

11 issue to be revisited once we get the SEC closed 

12 up. And so it can certainly be added to the TBD 

13 issue, which, to me, is where it should be. 

14 DR. OSTROW: Yeah, I agree. I just 

15 want to make sure that we have a good mechanism that 

16 we don't lose these things somewhere. 

17 DR. MAURO: This is John Mauro. I 

18 think I'd like to also add another dimension to this 

19 discussion. I know we're making segregations 

20 between TBD and SEC issues, and this LOFT 

21 discussion is a good example of something that I 
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1 sort of had on my mind. 

2 I think there's general agreement that 

3 we are really immersed in a process regarding 

4 reactors now where when OTIB-54 could be used in 

5 a claimant-favorable way, and times when perhaps 

6 it can't. And we've got a long list of reactors 

7 that we're looking at and selecting for more 

8 detailed consideration. 

9 The fact that we will refer to this, 

10 let's say, LOFT discussion now as a Site Profile 

11 issue implies that if you cannot use OTIB-54, there 

12 are other ways of dealing with this. Am I correct 

13 in presuming that the implications are that when 

14 you do have a unique circumstance where 54 doesn't 

15 give assurance you could get a claimant-favorable 

16 result, the solution is to actually run ORIGEN and 

17 not use the default set of OTIB-54 mixes, but come 

18 up with a mix that applies to that particular 

19 reactor?

20 I ask the question because if it's the 

21 general consensus that that is your solution and 
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1 that it will work, the implications are, yes, the 

2 doses can be reconstructed, but they have to be 

3 dealt with on a case-by-case basis because of the 

4 unique nature of each reactor.

5 So, on that basis, if that's the general 

6 sense that, yes, it is a manageable, tractable 

7 problem, then I would agree that, okay, we're 

8 dealing in Site Profile space. And I guess I would 

9 like to get a sense from folks if I'm thinking about 

10 this correctly. That is, it is a manageable 

11 problem. Just because you can't use OTIB-54 

12 doesn't mean you can't reconstruct doses. 

13 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim. That is 

14 correct, John. However, I wouldn't rule out, if 

15 we were to do this and we did run into some other 

16 unique problem, if for some reason ORIGEN didn't 

17 work for the reactors along this line, or something 

18 along those lines, there is still another avenue, 

19 and that's the 8314 process for there. So there 

20 are other issues along that line. I guess my 

21 current focus is trying to close out the current 
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1 SECs. And so as long as you don't lose that this 

2 evaluation needs to be done, I would like to propose 

3 that we just move it to the TBD to address after 

4 we get the SEC buttoned up. 

5 DR. MAURO: And I appreciate the 

6 answer, and I agree. As an 8314 solution, on those 

7 rare occasions when that might emerge, that does 

8 bring us into SEC space. 

9 DR. TAULBEE: It does, but it brings us 

10 in through a different avenue. 

11 DR. MAURO: Okay. Okay.

12 MR. STIVER: This is Stiver. I'd like 

13 to interject something at this point. I think that 

14 we're --

15 MR. KATZ: Just before you do, someone 

16 is typing rapidly. Can you just mute your phone? 

17 Because it is pretty loud, at least on my end. 

18 Thanks. 

19 MR. STIVER: Anyway, I was just saying 

20 there were two areas that really we thought were 

21 more related to data adequacy and completeness, 
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1 which kind of comes to bear more on the SEC side 

2 of the house. And, you know, I think Josie had sent 

3 around this one-page memo a little earlier, a 

4 couple weeks ago, to the rest of the Work Group.

5 One was the Chemical Processing Plant 

6 in years pre-1963, and the other was Burial 

7 Grounds. And then the other aspect in what we're 

8 talking about here with the reactor modeling really 

9 has to do with technical feasibility. And these 

10 are things like, you know, Hans's paper on general 

11 air versus breathing zone sample applicability 

12 with 54 and the reactors that we're talking about 

13 now. And then some of the follow-on investigation 

14 which Ron was doing about, you know, it wasn't the 

15 data that are out there and content and so forth 

16 actually comport well with OTIB-54 predictions.

17 And those can really go either way. 

18 They're an SEC, as Tim was saying, with an 8314 type 

19 of solution, or could be deemed to be Site Profile 

20 issues, depending on, you know, what the findings 

21 are from those investigations. So, I feel like 
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1 we're sort of jumping around a little bit here, but 

2 just to kind of set the table, you know, the big 

3 picture here. 

4 (Pause.)

5 MR. STIVER: But anyway, go ahead. 

6 Continue.

7 DR. OSTROW: Okay. So we're up to 

8 NIOSH's recommendation number three. NIOSH 

9 agrees with us that the OMRE reactor -- that's the 

10 Organic Moderated Reactor Experiment, OMRE --

11 should be evaluated for OTIB-54 applicability due 

12 to its unique moderator and coolant. 

13 And so we agree with NIOSH agreeing with 

14 us. And we added that after Bob Barton did his 

15 looking at dosimetry records, there appears to be 

16 a significant potential for exposure of hundreds 

17 of regular workers and visitors. We have a lot of 

18 data on that, and there was a lot of people that 

19 could potentially have been exposed to OMRE. So 

20 we are in agreement, NIOSH and SC&A.

21 The number four, NIOSH's 
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1 recommendation number four: NIOSH agrees with us 

2 that the Power Burst Facility, PBF, should be 

3 evaluated for OTIB-54 applicability due to the use 

4 of ceramic fuel. And we agree with NIOSH's 

5 agreement and note that also, based on the limited 

6 data available -- we only had a few years of -- we 

7 only had data for the first few years of operation 

8 of the Power Burst Facility -- there appears to be 

9 potential exposure for mostly less than 100 regular 

10 workers and visitors. I think only one year we 

11 went over 100, but the rest were, a few of them, 

12 100. So, for Power Burst Facility, we agreed to 

13 be evaluated.

14 Next one is item five, NIOSH's 

15 recommendation five. This has to do with the SPERT 

16 reactor test. That's the Special Power Excursion 

17 Reactor Test, and there were several of them. 

18 NIOSH proposes that a model for the most extreme 

19 experiment from all the SPERT tests, in terms of 

20 possible departure from OTIB-54, be used to 

21 represent the bounding case to cover all four SPERT 
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1 reactors.

2 So NIOSH is basically proposing, look 

3 at all the experiments that were done -- use that 

4 for detailed analysis with ORIGEN. We disagreed 

5 with NIOSH's recommendation. We said that 

6 although the four SPERT reactors were all part of 

7 the same series of reactor experiments that 

8 subjected the reactor system to large reactivity 

9 excursions, we still think that the reactors 

10 differed significantly from each other and should 

11 be examined separately, and perhaps by choosing the 

12 worst case for each reactor.

13 So, rather than having one worst case 

14 for all the SPERT reactors, we are suggesting that 

15 it might be better to look at the worst case for 

16 each individual reactor. And we just make a little 

17 addition that whatever NIOSH decides to do, that 

18 when they write it up, they should have, you know, 

19 sufficient detail justifying how they picked what 

20 they thought the bounding case was.

21 Tim, do you have any comments on that?
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1 DR. TAULBEE: No, not at this time. I 

2 would like to read your --

3 DR. OSTROW: Yes, of course, of course. 

4 But yeah, you sort of agree that, whenever you make 

5 choices like this, you need sufficient -- in the 

6 report, you know, sufficient backup why you chose 

7 a particular case as the worst case.

8 DR. TAULBEE: No, that part I fully 

9 agree with.

10 DR. OSTROW: Yeah, that's just a 

11 general comment, yeah.

12 DR. TAULBEE: Yeah, it's more of the 

13 differences of the reactor designs as your basis 

14 that I really want to look at.

15 DR. OSTROW: I understand, got to look 

16 at it more carefully. And we might be wrong too, 

17 you know. If you come back with, you know, a fuller 

18 discussion why you think you can bound it with only 

19 one case, then we will look at that too.

20 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. 

21 DR. OSTROW: Number six NIOSH 
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1 recommendation is related to the Boiling Water 

2 Reactor Experiment, that is, BORAX. And NIOSH 

3 notes correctly that the BORAX experiments I, II, 

4 and III all ceased operations before the end of the 

5 SEC period for ANL-West. So NIOSH proposes that 

6 BORAX I through III be removed from the 

7 consideration for evaluation of OTIB-54 

8 applicability as their operating years are covered 

9 by the SEC period, and bioassay data is known to 

10 be incomplete and the infeasibility to reconstruct 

11 doses has already been established.

12 Okay. So, that was the NIOSH 

13 assessment. And NIOSH agrees that BORAX-IV, which 

14 is within the period, should be evaluated for 

15 OTIB-54 applicability due to its use of 

16 uranium/thorium oxide fuel. 

17 But then NIOSH proposes that BORAX-V be 

18 removed from consideration for evaluation of 

19 OTIB-54 applicability. It's a very similar 

20 configuration to BORAX-IV, but it just added a 

21 steam superheating section, which we agree 
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1 shouldn't really affect the neutronics of the 

2 reactor. 

3 So, in short, we agree with NIOSH with 

4 respect to the BORAX reactor experiments.

5 NIOSH's recommendation seven, this has 

6 to do with the Experimental Breeder Reactor I, 

7 EBR-I. And EBR-I had several different cores that 

8 were tested over the years, and NIOSH proposes that 

9 the most bounding of the last two EBR-I cores be 

10 used. While it was initially believed that the 

11 plutonium core would be bounding, some preliminary 

12 modeling would be needed to be performed on all four 

13 cores to confirm this.

14 So, we agree with NIOSH. And we just 

15 note that, when we looked at the occupancy, that 

16 several hundred workers and visitors were present 

17 during the period of operation for the Mark IV core. 

18 That's their last core that we had data for. So, 

19 we agree.

20 The last recommendation by NIOSH, this 

21 has to do with Experimental Breeder Reactor II, 
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1 EBR-II. And NIOSH agrees with SC&A that EBR-II 

2 should be evaluated. And we note, based on our 

3 additional study, that several hundred workers and 

4 visitors could have been exposed each year. And 

5 in some years, the average worker-penetrating 

6 doses were greater than 100 millirem. So we're 

7 just basically in agreement with NIOSH.

8 So I think when NIOSH looks at our 

9 report, we're in agreement with most of the 

10 recommendations. There's a few that are up for 

11 discussion. And as we just discussed a few minutes 

12 ago, we're going to also roll in now the summaries 

13 of the two earlier reports we had from TRA and the 

14 TAN reports. So, as Tim suggested, this will be 

15 convenient. All the reactors will be in one place, 

16 and NIOSH can make its plan for how they're going 

17 to address things all working off one report.

18 So, that's it. I am done. 

19 (Pause.)

20 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Tim or anybody 

21 have any comments on these?
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1 DR. TAULBEE: The only comment I have 

2 is thanks, Steve, for going over that. That does 

3 help, and I look forward to seeing the report.

4 DR. OSTROW: Okay. Very good. I just 

5 want to make a separate comment.

6 I just want to praise Tim a little bit 

7 here in the Work Group meeting. Tim came out a few 

8 days ago with the INL Facility Quick Reference 

9 Guide, which I think he did because the Board wanted 

10 something like this. It's really, really good. 

11 It has great illustrations, it's a great summary

12 of all the different reactors, and it impressed me 

13 where you can jump from one section to the other 

14 just by clicking on things, you know, hyperlinks. 

15 So I just want to say, nice job, Tim. 

16 MEMBER ROESSLER: This is Gen. 

17 Thanks. Am I off mute?

18 DR. OSTROW: Yeah, we can hear you, 

19 Gen.

20 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay. I appreciate 

21 your saying that, Steve. I think I'm responsible 
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1 for suggesting this, and --

2 DR. OSTROW: Okay. Good job, Gen, 

3 then. 

4 (Laughter.)

5 MEMBER ROESSLER: Well, initially, I 

6 thought maybe a simple matrix would do it, a couple 

7 pages in Excel, but I can see now that would not 

8 have worked at all, probably. This was really 

9 creative and very well done. I find it very 

10 useful. And I think, maybe from a Work Group 

11 Member point of view, this sort of thing is useful 

12 because we have other things we do most of our 

13 lives, and we come into this on occasion, and we 

14 have to get up to speed on everything, on a site. 

15 And with a large site like this, this is just 

16 extremely useful to just, bingo, you get right back 

17 into it. So, thanks, Tim. 

18 DR. TAULBEE: You are quite welcome, 

19 and thanks for all of the good comments on that.

20 I do have one question, I guess, for the 

21 Work Group. Do you want this to be, I guess, 
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1 available to the public type of standpoint, that 

2 we should go ahead and go forward with the way it 

3 is? Or are there other comments that people have 

4 on it? Well, I guess I'm looking for feedback from 

5 you all. 

6 MEMBER ROESSLER: I'll chime in again, 

7 and I hope to hear from others, too. You asked does 

8 this summary have enough information in it, and I 

9 think it does. Certainly, one of the pluses of it 

10 are the photos. I think that helps a lot. It is 

11 also very, very useful to click back and forth, as 

12 Steve said.

13 Whether it should be made available, I 

14 would say yes, if it's not too time-consuming. It 

15 does need a few edits, but I think we have to leave 

16 that up to -- well, maybe others want to chime in 

17 to evaluate whether it's worth that much time. 

18 DR. OSTROW: This is Steve. I think 

19 it's really going to be useful. I'd just suggest, 

20 if you're going to make it public, that you just 

21 mention somewhere that if people want more 
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1 information, they should consult Susan Stacy's 

2 Proving the Principle tome, which has great detail 

3 on the whole history of INL. You know, just 

4 mention that somewhere. 

5 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. 

6 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Has this been 

7 checked to make sure there's nothing that could 

8 present any problems from the standpoint of 

9 classification? I mean, I've looked at it, but I 

10 mean, if we were to put this out for the public. 

11 DR. TAULBEE: Well, it has to go 

12 through that review as well as a PA review. Some 

13 of the photos that are in there do show some 

14 people's faces. I think those have to be blurred 

15 out. And so I think there are some -- well, there 

16 is some additional work. 

17 If the Work Group wants to keep it for 

18 their own personal -- or for their own use, which 

19 is what it was intended for, that's fine. I think 

20 it is good the way it is. But if you did want it 

21 to go out further, then there is 508 compliance and 
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1 other things that have to be done to it. So I was 

2 looking for feedback as to what you all want to do 

3 with that document. 

4 MEMBER BEACH: Tim, this is Josie. I

5 have glanced at it but haven't had an opportunity 

6 yet this week to really read it, so I'm going to 

7 withhold any comments at this time.

8 DR. TAULBEE: Alright. That's fine. 

9 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: My question is, 

10 how much time and effort would it take to polish 

11 this up? And how much would be lost in order to 

12 send it out to the general public? If that's going 

13 to take a lot of time and effort and money, I would 

14 be inclined to not put it out. Maybe at a later 

15 date, but at this time, with the number of 

16 priorities we have, number of things we're looking 

17 at, I kind of hate to commit too much time to it. 

18 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. Yeah, it will 

19 take time in order to do those things that I talked 

20 about. So, yeah, how much time? I don't have a 

21 good feel. I don't know all of the 508 compliance 
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1 type of things that have to be done to it. Sorry 

2 I can't give you a better estimate of the level of 

3 effort to fix that. I'd have to get with some other 

4 folks to find that out. 

5 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I just feel there 

6 are higher priorities at this time. 

7 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. I concur. 

8 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Anybody else? 

9 MEMBER MELIUS: This is Jim Melius. I 

10 agree. 

11 MEMBER ROESSLER: Go ahead, Jim. 

12 MEMBER MELIUS: I'm just saying I agree 

13 with Phil and Tim. We have other priorities right 

14 now. 

15 (Pause.)

16 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: There's a couple 

17 of other things that we haven't brought up here. 

18 We've been talking about the reactors, but I know 

19 we have some interviews coming in November and

20 probably December, some of the fire department 

21 personnel. I was wondering if any of the personnel 
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1 from the guards or their union are going to be 

2 interviewed too, because we have questions about 

3 the CPP and, you know, what happened when there was 

4 a response from -- I mean, you obviously have a few 

5 people that are located nearby. But then again, 

6 depending on the issue and, you know, how many 

7 personnel are out on vacation or sick leave, et 

8 cetera, that would impact bringing people who would 

9 not have exchange badges into the area to answer 

10 alarms, whether they are fire department or 

11 security alarms. 

12 DR. TAULBEE: Well, as you mentioned, 

13 Phil, we are focusing on the fire department. We 

14 have interviewed a couple of security individuals. 

15 One of them we want to bring back to ask more 

16 specific questions about that. But the most 

17 recent interview was with a security individual who 

18 indicated that he had badges there at each of the 

19 facilities. So, like I said, we will be 

20 interviewing at least one other security 

21 personnel, but the focus was going to be on 
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1 firefighters, so that was kind of the goal. 

2 If you want more security guards, we can 

3 certainly add a few more to that. I didn't want 

4 to infringe too much on -- I believe Joe mentioned 

5 to me that you guys wanted to do some more 

6 interviews with some more -- I don't know if it was 

7 CPP folks or Burial Ground folks -- I think it was 

8 Burial Ground. But you're also looking at the 

9 matrix, so I was trying to limit I guess our -- we 

10 have about 15 interview slots for the week, and so 

11 I was trying to limit ours to five to six and leave 

12 the rest for Joe and John to decide on.

13 MR. STIVER: Yeah, this is John. I 

14 know Joe is interested in trying to run the Burial 

15 Ground. Hopefully there are some more people, you 

16 know, in that early period, pre-1970 period, that 

17 he's interested in looking at. 

18 DR. TAULBEE: And Lynn is working on a 

19 matrix right now, correct? 

20 MR. STIVER: Lynn is about halfway 

21 through. As of the day before yesterday, she had 
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1 done a little over 30 of I think it was like 70 total 

2 that we had already interviewed, just to identify, 

3 you know, if there are any stones that have not been 

4 turned yet, if there are gaps that we really need 

5 to take a closer look at. And as expected, that 

6 should be done in a couple of weeks, I would think. 

7 So, John, this is Ted. Just a 

8 question. Does that matrix give a sort of very 

9 brief thumbnail on what topics were covered by the 

10 interviewee?

11 MR. STIVER: Right, that's the idea, 

12 just to kind of -- there were many different 

13 interviewees and to kind of get it altogether in 

14 one document where you can really see what topics 

15 were covered and what areas that may be, to the 

16 extent that there are, additional people out there 

17 that they can be interviewed and where we would want 

18 to go to really amass them under the economy of the 

19 work so that we don't spend a lot of money 

20 unnecessarily.

21 DR. TAULBEE: I think we have talked to 
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1 enough reactor operators.

2 MR. STIVER: Yes. Yes, exactly. 

3 That would be a perfect example.

4 And as I said, that matrix should be 

5 finished up here within a couple of weeks, I would 

6 imagine. Probably not much longer than that. 

7 Certainly enough time to coordinate with Tim and 

8 the rest of the NIOSH people for the November 

9 interviews.

10 DR. TAULBEE: Should we try to have a 

11 technical call?

12 MR. STIVER: Yes, I was just going to 

13 suggest that. I think it would be a good idea to 

14 have that technical call just to really make sure 

15 that we everything lined up appropriately.

16 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I just have one 

17 major question there that I want answered. 

18 Obviously, the fire department, depending on what 

19 the response is, will not have the time to stop and 

20 exchange badges. But I would like the question 

21 answered was for all the guards, did they all have 
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1 exchange badges there or only a select group that 

2 were maybe stationed normally in that area? I 

3 don't know how their security system was set up, 

4 whether they had, in particular, different zones 

5 or did people move from area to area, depending on 

6 the workload that they might need more people or 

7 what was going on.

8 The fire department, I think that 

9 question can be answered there in interviews. But 

10 it seems like that particular question has not been 

11 answered to my satisfaction, whether all the 

12 guards, all security personnel had exchange badges 

13 there.

14 DR. TAULBEE: Again, Phil, we can 

15 interview some more guards, if you want. The last 

16 guard that we interviewed, he indicated that he had 

17 a badge at each of the facilities that he went into.

18 But we can certainly interview more. 

19 And I do want to interview the one individual was 

20 responding on that the night of SL-1. So, he is 

21 one of the people we are looking to interview again 
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1 because he was a guard at that particular event but 

2 we didn't ask him the question the way you were 

3 asking it just now. So, I want to ask him that as 

4 well.

5 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Okay. Well, I 

6 would be interested in hearing or finding out. And 

7 maybe even whoever is -- if you can find some of 

8 those people still around, who was in charge of 

9 badging and stuff for the entire site. And maybe 

10 it broke up between ANL and INL. I don't know.

11 It seems to me they should have some 

12 documentation that says yes, everybody who went in 

13 that area had an exchange badge, regardless of what 

14 area of the site they worked on for like security 

15 or did only certain people have those exchange 

16 badges.

17 I think this will be addressed 

18 adequately, I would hope, during the interview with 

19 the fire department. It is just a thought of mine 

20 that somebody should have that answer and it should 

21 be documented somewhere in their security plans. 
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1 Anybody else have any comments?

2 MEMBER MELIUS: This is Jim Melius. 

3 Not on that but I have a couple of other issues I'm 

4 trying to understand regarding the SEC or potential 

5 SEC.

6 As I recall, we still haven't settled 

7 on -- there is a number of reserve years after the 

8 current SEC for the Chemical Processing Plant and 

9 some years before. I believe it is '63 or '64, 

10 something like that, before that where there was 

11 some uncertainty for that. And I'm just trying to 

12 understand where we are in terms of the evaluation 

13 of that, both NIOSH and SC&A.

14 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim with NIOSH. 

15 What we are working on is an ER addendum and we are 

16 working to get that to the Board -- to the Work Group 

17 in early to mid-November, is our current schedule 

18 from that standpoint. The three time periods that 

19 we are looking at are Test Area North 1961, I 

20 believe, up to 1965, where they were working with 

21 some uranium. The other two areas, one is the hot 
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1 cell ARA-1. This would be 1968, March of 1968. It 

2 was a separations of protactinium that was 

3 conducted there in a very short time period, like 

4 a week type of time period. And then the final one 

5 is the retrieval of drums from the Burial Ground 

6 in November of 1969. And so those are the three 

7 areas that will be addressed in the ER addendum. 

8 Those are the reserved areas that we have that we 

9 do plan to address.

10 MEMBER BEACH: Tim, this is Josie. 

11 That last one, or the second to the last one, the 

12 hot cell ARA-1, you said from '68. Is that just 

13 for --

14 DR. TAULBEE: It was just in March of 

15 1968.

16 MEMBER BEACH: Just that one month, 

17 okay.

18 DR. TAULBEE: Yes. When we were doing 

19 the ER originally, we ran into these things and were 

20 basically running out time to research the details 

21 of when it happened and about what happened and so 
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1 forth. And we have been able to narrow it down --

2 well, identify it as March of 1968. Well, you see 

3 the ER addendum when it comes out.

4 MR. STIVER: Tim, this is John Stiver. 

5 Are you going to handle the reserve years at CPP 

6 through a different mechanism then, like an 83.14, 

7 then, or how is that going to work?

8 DR. TAULBEE: You're talking about the 

9 time period post-1974.

10 MR. STIVER: Yes.

11 DR. TAULBEE: Yes, that is going to be 

12 handled under an 83.14.

13 MR. STIVER: Okay, I just wanted to 

14 make sure I was clear on that. Thank you.

15 DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

16 MEMBER BEACH: So, Tim, what is the 

17 priority on that 83.14?

18 DR. TAULBEE: Well, that is one of the 

19 reasons I am glad you are all on the call here today 

20 because I think there may be some misunderstanding 

21 there.
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1 When we last talked the second of 

2 August, I guess my marching orders, from the way 

3 I understood it, was to work on the -- to finish 

4 up the ER addendum, the reserve areas that we have 

5 got to get done, and then my original plan was to 

6 go on to the 83.14. However, I believe the Work 

7 Group and Dr. Melius, I believe you were the one 

8 who wanted us to address the air sampling issue with 

9 ANL-West next, before that 83.14, before we pursued 

10 that. Is that still our marching orders from a 

11 priority standpoint?

12 MEMBER MELIUS: That was not -- I just 

13 -- as I recall and it is in a transcript someplace, 

14 but all I said is I wanted that issue at least left 

15 open, the air sampling issue. It is a question to 

16 be answered, not necessarily as a higher priority 

17 than some other issues.

18 DR. TAULBEE: Okay, I misunderstood 

19 you, then. I mean, we wouldn't -- obviously, we 

20 wouldn't close one of these issues without a 

21 report.
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1 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

2 DR. TAULBEE: I mean, it's certainly 

3 going to remain open.

4 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, and as I recall 

5 from that meeting, we when sort of got I want to 

6 say bogged down but then we went into a long 

7 discussion on the reactors and so forth and 

8 prioritizing them.

9 I just didn't want the air sampling 

10 issue to get -- shut it off completely until it had 

11 been evaluated. That was all.

12 So, I would think the reserved area, 

13 overall, is higher priority, simply because I think 

14 it affects more people.

15 DR. TAULBEE: Okay, so the ER addendum 

16 is the reserved area.

17 MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

18 DR. TAULBEE: Now, the other issue is 

19 the 83.14.

20 MEMBER MELIUS: The 83.14, that's 

21 right. I'm sorry, yes.
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1 DR. TAULBEE: Okay, the 83.14, which 

2 just so everybody is clear on this, we committed 

3 that we would look at that time period beyond what 

4 the petitioner had originally asked for. And if 

5 we found an infeasibility beyond 1975, that we 

6 would initiate an 83.14.

7 And what that means is we go through, 

8 we do the evaluation much like a regular SEC 

9 evaluation. And then if we find an infeasibility, 

10 then we find a petitioner and we will then go 

11 through and make the recommendation.

12 So, after this reserved area, that is 

13 what you want us to address next, correct?

14 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, that is my 

15 preference.

16 MEMBER BEACH: I agree with that. 

17 DR. TAULBEE: Okay, that's not a 

18 problem.

19 MEMBER BEACH: And then what about the 

20 Class Definition question that we have been 

21 struggling with? Where are we with that?
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1 MR. BARTON: Yes, hi, Josie, this is 

2 Bob Barton. I think I can speak to that.

3 MEMBER BEACH: Hi, Bob.

4 MR. BARTON: I do remember one of the 

5 main issues remaining or the last real issue that 

6 cropped up was the issue of these visitor cards that 

7 hadn't been indexed completely by DOE and so they 

8 are undertaking that effort. And at the last 

9 meeting, the Work Group requested that SC&A go in 

10 and come up with sort of a proposal of methods that 

11 we could use for sort of a verification and 

12 validation study, when that coding and indexing 

13 effort, ideally, was completed.

14 And we have come up with data. It's not 

15 in your hands yet. It is in the final round of 

16 internal review on our side. I believe that might 

17 one might have to go to DOE just because it is a 

18 proposal and also a brief sort of proof of principle 

19 to show that we think that the method could actually 

20 work to do that sort of V and V activity on the 

21 coding effort, which I think will go a long way 
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1 towards answering a lot of the questions that the 

2 Work Group had, especially regarding 

3 implementation and things like that, such as 

4 slightly illegible records, or misspelling of 

5 names, or nicknames, or something that might appear 

6 on the visitor cards.

7 So, we have come up with a method and 

8 that should be -- it is a pretty brief memo but it 

9 should be in your hands shortly.

10 MEMBER MELIUS: Thanks, Bob. 

11 Tim, any change in scheduling or update 

12 on the scheduling issue on that?

13 DR. TAULBEE: From DOE?

14 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, the data 

15 processing.

16 DR. TAULBEE: I have not heard anything 

17 from them.

18 MEMBER MELIUS: Okay. I guess we 

19 didn't -- Greg wasn't impressed with our subtle 

20 pressure.

21 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. I mean, I can 
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1 contact Greg and we can get an update on that.

2 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, if you could. 

3 I'm more concerned that -- I'm not sure we can push 

4 it up but at least we can -- I would hate to find 

5 out that it is going to take another year or 

6 something because of a change in resources, or 

7 priorities, or whatever.

8 DR. TAULBEE: Okay, I can certainly do 

9 that and notify the Work Group via email.

10 MEMBER MELIUS: Oh, okay. Thanks. I 

11 appreciate that.

12 MR. STIVER: Tim, this is John. I have 

13 got a question for you, since we are kind of on the 

14 subject.

15 At the August 2nd meeting, you 

16 indicated that the SRDB, the references that Joe 

17 and Bob had captured back in March should be up on 

18 the SRDB by the end of the month. And Bob indicated 

19 to me that he had found a couple. I'm just 

20 wondering to the extent that that has already been 

21 completed or not.
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1 DR. TAULBEE: It has not been completed 

2 and let me apologize for saying that would be done 

3 by the end of the month. That was my 

4 misunderstanding of how long this takes. I have 

5 been in contact with ORAU and to get all of these 

6 requests uploaded is going to take into November.

7 What we have asked for is that ORAU move 

8 the -- well, currently, we have references that we 

9 are using in the ER addendum that we are writing. 

10 This the reserved portions. So, we have moved 

11 those references up to the front to get indexed so 

12 that we have got SRDB numbers so they can be 

13 referenced properly in the documentation.

14 What I asked them to do was then take 

15 all of the SC&A requests from that data capture and 

16 move that to just behind our ER addendum. And so 

17 they will go there before the remainder of them.

18 Just to let everybody know, these were 

19 over 1,300 documents that were released on seven 

20 flash drives in August. So, this is taking a 

21 little bit of time for them to get them indexed into 
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1 the SRDB because they do -- where there is large 

2 documents and subdocuments, they do index each of 

3 those titles. And so this is more of a complicated 

4 process than what I had envisioned or thought of. 

5 And I apologize for that.

6 I believe that we will probably have all 

7 of SC&A's documents in there, I am hoping, by the 

8 middle of next month, if not sooner. Once they 

9 are, I will let you know, though.

10 MR. STIVER: Okay, so probably 

11 mid-October, then we will say?

12 DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

13 MR. STIVER: Okay, thanks.

14 MR. BARTON: John, this is Bob Barton. 

15 I have been able to kind of dive in a little bit 

16 more since we spoke a day or two ago.

17 A lot of the references that we 

18 collected in January and the subsequent data 

19 captures are actually in the SRDB, so, at least with 

20 regards sort of the evaluation of the Chemical 

21 Processing Plant prior to 1963. Of course, the 
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1 issue we are really looking at there is whether 

2 there was any potential for exposure to alpha. 

3 Internally, that was not in the presence of fission 

4 products. So, there is a lot of references that 

5 are uploaded. So, I don't think we have really 

6 seen it at this point, with going forward with that 

7 analysis. There may be a few more there but a lot 

8 of them that we did capture have been uploaded 

9 recently.

10 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I've got a 

11 question. Josie brought this up a few minutes ago.

12 What is happening on the Burial 

13 Grounds? Is anybody actually looking at that at 

14 this point or has that been pushed down?

15 MR. STIVER: Phil, a lot of those 

16 records that Joe collected back in March come to 

17 bear on the Burial Ground. As Tim indicated, they 

18 probably won't be available until mid-October.

19 We also wanted to interview some more 

20 Burial Grounds workers in the early period, if that 

21 is, indeed, feasible, and find them. And that 
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1 would be in early October.

2 So, it is still very much on the table. 

3 It is just that because of the bottlenecks and 

4 getting some of this information available through 

5 INL and so forth is just taking longer than we would 

6 like.

7 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Okay. I do have 

8 one other question while we are all on the phone.

9 My understanding is that they want to 

10 use the ten percent of the MPC as a bounding value. 

11 I have real heartburn with that, how this could be 

12 used as a bounding value. I mean, basically, you 

13 are saying that that doesn't exist at a higher level 

14 than that is my take on this. It seems like at 

15 least 50 percent of what that value is because if 

16 it is not setting off any alarms or anything, you 

17 don't really know what level it is in that 

18 particular facility or room or location.

19 MR. STIVER: Yes, Phil, that is 

20 actually kind of another aspect of the general air 

21 versus breathing zone issue that Tim is going to 
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1 address after the ER addendum in the 83.14, I guess. 

2 I don't know if that is possible to do parallel with 

3 the resources we have got.

4 But that is kind of the flip side, if 

5 you will, of that other point because you are 

6 sampling, getting general air sampling, and you 

7 come up with values that are less than ten percent 

8 of the MPC, is that really representative of what 

9 the workers are encountering in their breathing 

10 zones? And that was the subject of Hans' paper 

11 that we talked about very extensively at the last 

12 meeting.

13 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Yes.

14 DR. TAULBEE: And based upon from our 

15 earlier discussions here, that is my third major 

16 deliverable back to the Board, the way I look at 

17 this. The ER addendum, the 83.14 for CPP, and then 

18 the air sample issue for ANL-West.

19 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Job security for 

20 you, Tim.

21 MR. STIVER: Tim, are those types of 
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1 things going to have to be done in parallel or are 

2 you going to have to do them sequentially?

3 DR. TAULBEE: I don't know yet. I just 

4 don't know the answer to that yet.

5 MR. STIVER: Okay.

6 DR. TAULBEE: I made the ER addendum, 

7 based upon our current resources, the first one to 

8 get done. The 83.14, and the air sample, that is 

9 something we are going to have to look and see 

10 whether we can or cannot.

11 My initial guess says probably not but 

12 I'm actually not the one who schedules resources.

13 MR. STIVER: Okay. This is John 

14 again. There was one other thing that we were 

15 tasked to do at the last meeting, which was for Ron 

16 Buchanan to kind of address some of Tim's concerns 

17 about the review of the fuel developer contact, 

18 kind of direct measurements of fission and 

19 activation products and actinide activity ratios.

20 And so while I was on the phone, I 

21 believe we talked a little bit about the issues and 
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1 process of reorganizing the data into monthly 

2 cycles and also looking at plume dose potential, 

3 and also some statistics of the distributions that 

4 are involved.

5 So, Ron, if you are on, maybe you could 

6 give a little bit of a background on that, if you 

7 can.

8 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay, this is Ron 

9 Buchanan with SC&A. We discussed this on the 

10 second of August.

11 Just to give you a little background, 

12 my initial look at this was to see if there was 

13 actual benchmarks that we could compare to the 

14 computer-generated values in OTIB-64 for fission 

15 activation products with the cesium and strontium 

16 ratios and the actinides in TBD-5. 

17 And so I went through and searched for 

18 data that gave simultaneous measurements of cesium 

19 and strontium and also some fission activation 

20 products and actinides, if possible, and compared 

21 those with what was recommended in those documents.
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1 And so, initially, I did this and came 

2 out with some data that I started working on the 

3 waste data. And I issued a report in June on that 

4 and had some data points in there that showed that 

5 about 35 to 45 percent of them actually fell in a 

6 reasonable range for strontium and cesium. And 

7 the importance of that is strontium-137 

8 and -- cesium-137 and strontium-90 are considered 

9 to be about in equal ratios in these documents that 

10 will be used for dose reconstruction.

11 So, the first thing was to look at that 

12 and see if they were around unity and then also, 

13 if the data was available, to look at the ratio of 

14 cesium-137 and/or strontium-92, the fission 

15 products that were reasonably long in half-life. 

16 I did not look at the ones that were very short 

17 because you don't know when they generated. So, 

18 you don't know what the equilibrium is.

19 So, I looked at the ones in OTIB-54 that 

20 had about a year half-life or greater and compared 

21 those with the strontium and the cesium values and 
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1 also the actinides given in the TBD-5 in tables 522 

2 and 523. The ratios there, the main dose concern 

3 was for about three of those radionuclides actually 

4 produced a significant dose and so I looked for 

5 those.

6 Now, one problem you run into is if they 

7 do actinides, they don't usually do fission 

8 products and vice-versa. So, there are very few 

9 tied together.

10 I did present this information at the 

11 August report and NIOSH brought up the question of 

12 well, you used mainly annual results for the waste 

13 data. What about the monthly results? Because 

14 some months there would be no say cobalt-60 listed. 

15 So, that would kind of skew the annual dose for 

16 those months that cobalt wasn't listed.

17 So, I went back and looked at some and 

18 Tim was gracious enough to provide me with -- I did 

19 know that he was familiar with it -- listed all the 

20 monthly and the annual, dug through thousands of 

21 documents and thousands of pages to find some 
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1 matching pairs that were done at the same time.

2 And so I came up with about 350 matching 

3 pairs and I looked at those on a monthly basis and 

4 compared those to the yearly basis. And at this 

5 point, I am at that stage, getting that 

6 information, getting it into Excel spreadsheets 

7 and those ratios, plotting that data. And I will 

8 be working on the statistical aspects of that to 

9 see if there is an issue or not with it. Before, 

10 I had simply done a scatter plot and it fell within 

11 plus or minus a factor two on the ratios.

12 Right now, I am looking at some 

13 regression analysis and, obviously, probability 

14 distribution and I have that about ready to discuss 

15 with our mathematician there who does the 

16 statistics. 

17 And then ANL -- that was all for INL. 

18 Now, ANL has a lot less orders of magnitude less 

19 data. I did find some additional data. It looks 

20 like the ANL follows the INL. So, to some extent, 

21 and since there is a lot less information for ANL, 
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1 I will use what I have. I probably won't find any 

2 350 pairs but it looked like it is mirrored by INL. 

3 So, we will concentrate on that but I will look at 

4 what I have for ANL on a monthly and yearly basis.

5 So, at this point, we are ready to do 

6 statistical analysis on INL data and probably will 

7 have something out to the Work Group, hopefully, 

8 for the November Board meeting. This is fairly 

9 manually intensive. So, it takes a while to get 

10 all this data together and analyzed.

11 But at this point, I don't see any big 

12 differences between the monthly and yearly but I 

13 will reserve that until we can do some more detailed 

14 statistical analysis on it and then also look at 

15 what data we have for ANL.

16 So, I will try to have something out by 

17 the November meeting.

18 Any questions on that?

19 DR. TAULBEE: None from me.

20 MEMBER BEACH: None from me, either. 

21 Thanks.
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1 MEMBER ROESSLER: None from me. I 

2 don't know if I'm off mute.

3 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, you are, Gen.

4 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay.

5 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I don't have any 

6 questions on that.

7 MEMBER ROESSLER: I have a new phone 

8 and I'm getting used to it.

9 MEMBER BEACH: Should we talk about a 

10 next meeting, maybe, Phil or are we not ready for 

11 that yet?

12 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I think with the 

13 interviews coming up and stuff, I don't think we 

14 -- I would hate to kind of set one at this point. 

15 Maybe look at the one in January or something after 

16 the interviews are done.

17 DR. TAULBEE: I would like to propose, 

18 Phil, that we do a technical call about the 

19 interviews for coordination purposes.

20 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I don't have a 

21 problem with that, if John doesn't have a problem 
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1 with that and Ted. I mean, obviously, that would 

2 have to go through --

3 MR. KATZ: Oh, yes. No, there is no 

4 trouble with having a technical call. For me to 

5 notice it, that's a piece of cake.

6 So, just keep me in the loop and I will 

7 arrange it whenever you guys figure out when is a 

8 sensible time to do that, your preparations. 

9 That's fine.

10 I did have a question, just for clarity. 

11 So, we have a November, very end of November Board 

12 meeting and I'm just not sure but the sense I am 

13 getting from what has been said so far then is it 

14 seems like we may not have any INL consideration 

15 at that November Board meeting because nothing will 

16 be ready that is going to move anything. Is that 

17 correct, with respect to, for example, the current 

18 proposed definition for the chemical plant?

19 DR. TAULBEE: Ted, this is Tim. We 

20 were hoping to have the ER addendum done.

21 MR. KATZ: And enough in advance of the 
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1 November meeting that it could actually be taken 

2 up then at the November meeting?

3 DR. TAULBEE: I'm hoping.

4 MR. KATZ: Okay. I guess what I want 

5 to understand is is that something that is going 

6 to come to the Work Group first? Is it going to 

7 be early enough for that or is that just going to 

8 be presented at the Board meeting?

9 DR. TAULBEE: I guess, that I leave to 

10 you all, Ted.

11 MR. KATZ: Well, I mean, it depends on 

12 the timing.-

13 MEMBER MELIUS: Ted, what I have down 

14 is that Tim was estimating early November for that.

15 MR. KATZ: Oh, okay. So, do we want 

16 the Work Group to hear that first or do we want to 

17 just have that at the Board meeting?

18 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I think it would 

19 be good for the Work Group to look at it and see 

20 if we feel that it is far enough along that we can 

21 make a recommendation. I would just hate to get 
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1 blindsided with it just a few days later, 

2 particularly if we don't feel that we can go with 

3 the recommendation, at this point.

4 MR. KATZ: Right. Well, if it is an 

5 opportunity for that, then we might as well book 

6 a Work Group meeting and then I'll send it out --we 

7 don't have to do on the phone here, unless you want 

8 to -- but for a few weeks out from the Board meeting, 

9 so that we are able to have that Work Group meeting, 

10 if the timing works out. Right?

11 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Yes.

12 MR. KATZ: Yes, if you guys have your 

13 calendars and you want to do it now we can do it 

14 or I can send something out.

15 MEMBER BEACH: I'm good.

16 MR. KATZ: Okay. I mean, I'm fine. I 

17 have my calendar right here. We can book it now, 

18 if you want. And of course, you know, depending 

19 on when the timing of when it actually gets done, 

20 the work gets done, it may affect things. But it 

21 seems like we would want it no later than -- I mean, 
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1 Thanksgiving is the week before the Board meeting. 

2 And I would think we would want it, ideally, no 

3 later than the week of November 7th.

4 DR. TAULBEE: The week of November 7th 

5 is when we are doing the INL interviews.

6 MR. KATZ: Oh, okay. So that week 

7 doesn't work. What about -- well, the report isn't 

8 your work, Tim, is it? I mean, at the end, you are 

9 getting approval from --

10 DR. TAULBEE: Yes, reviews and so 

11 forth. I'm just looking -- I just pulled up the 

12 latest project plan dates and this is actually 

13 putting it at the end of November. 

14 MR. KATZ: Oh, okay. Alright. Well, 

15 the end of November is the Board meeting.

16 DR. TAULBEE: Yes. So, I don't think 

17 this is actually going to be available for the Board 

18 to look at, certainly not 30 days before.

19 MR. KATZ: Well no, not 30 days but then 

20 it sounds like not really at all is what you are 

21 saying, I think.
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1 DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

2 MR. KATZ: So, then it sounds like it 

3 is a presentation to the Board, Tim, or not even 

4 ready for that?

5 DR. TAULBEE: It may not even be ready 

6 for that. Let me get back to you on that. I 

7 apologize.

8 MEMBER MELIUS: We can put it 

9 tentatively on the agenda for November.

10 MR. KATZ: Yes, we will put it 

11 tentatively on the agenda. But Tim, as soon as you 

12 can figure out if it is going to make it or not, 

13 then please let me know.

14 DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

15 MR. KATZ: Alright. Alright, then we 

16 don't need to book another Work Group meeting in 

17 advance of the Board meeting.

18 Okay, good. Alright, does that take 

19 care of everything, Phil? Anything else for the 

20 good of the order?

21 MEMBER BEACH: This is Josie. Who is 
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1 going to send around options for the tech call? Is 

2 that going to be SC&A or --

3 MR. KATZ: As soon as SC&A and NIOSH 

4 figure out when the right timing is for that tech 

5 call, one of them will send me a note and I will 

6 send it around to the Work Group.

7 MEMBER BEACH: Okay. And I think, 

8 John, you have Joe's schedule. So you can --

9 MR. STIVER: Yes. Yes, we will work 

10 together on that.

11 MEMBER BEACH: Okay, perfect.

12 MR. KATZ: Sounds good.

13 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Okay, sounds 

14 good.

15 MEMBER BEACH: Thank you.

16 CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Thank you.

17 Adjourn

18 MR. KATZ: We're adjourned. Thank 

19 you.

20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

21 went off the record at 11:43 a.m.)
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1

2

3

4

5

6