1 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES 

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL 

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND 

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PROCEDURES REVIEW 

+ + + + + 

MONDAY 

SEPTEMBER 19, 2011 

+ + + + + 

The Subcommittee convened in the 

Zurich Room of the Cincinnati Airport

Marriott, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron,

Kentucky, at 9:00 a.m., Wanda I. Munn, Chair,

presiding. 

PRESENT: 

WANDA I. MUNN, Chair

PAUL L. ZIEMER, Member 

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ALSO PRESENT: 

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

ISAF AL-NABULSI, DOE*

ROBERT ANIGSTEIN, SC&A*

ELIZABETH BRACKETT, ORAU Team*

STU HINNEFELD, DCAS

JENNY LIN, HHS*

STEPHEN MARSCHKE, SC&A

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU Team*

SCOTT SIEBERT, ORAU Team*

ELYSE THOMAS, ORAU Team*

BRANT ULSH, DCAS 

*Participating via telephone 

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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Welcome/Roll Call/Introductions.............4 

Database Questions & Comments...............5 

OTIB-0070..................................74 

PER's Status...............................75 

Review of OTIB-2 Open Items...............122 

TIB-0010 Review...........................144 

Carry-Over Items:

OTIB-21-04...............................151 

OTIB-51-01...............................156 

TIB-013..................................157 

OTIB-52 Rev. 1............................178 

Overarching Issues........................191 

Unresolved Action Items...................203 

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:00 a.m. 

3 MR. KATZ: We have an agenda. It 

4 should be on the web, under the Board webpage, 

5 and Wanda, it's your agenda. Take it away. 

6 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you. I think 

8 we've all been spending a little time trying 

9 to get more up to speed and a little more 

10 familiar with our new database, which I 

11 understand, we're supposed to call an 

12 application, but which I'll probably continue 

13 to call a database. 

14 On our CDC Board review system, we 

15 had hoped this time, to be able to provide a 

16 summary, as we had done with our former 

17 database that we used, because it gives us all 

18 a better feel for what our totals are, and 

19 what progress we've made in recent time. 

20 But I have been unable to do so, 

21 and I believe Steve has been unable to do so, 

22 also. 

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1 There are -- that's one of the 

2 things that we've asked for, that apparently, 

3 has not yet been incorporated into the 

4 background programming, what we are now 

5 calling the Board review system. 

6 Steve, is there anything you want 

7 to say to us about where we are and what we 

8 can expect, what we have outstanding that we 

9 anticipate is going to be done, hopefully, the 

10 next time we meet? 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, what I'd like 

12 to do is -- I sent an email to Wanda on 

13 Saturday, the earlier part of the evening, and 

14 I think there was identified in here about 

15 five things, which we identified, we would 

16 like the Board review system to do, that 

17 currently, it's not capable of doing. 

18 One of them is the old -- the first 

19 one is the old summary table that Wanda has 

20 been talking about. We would like to be able 

21 to generate that old summary table. 

22 I have -- I can probably get you a 

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1 copy of what it looks like, if you need it, 

2 but I think we've talked about it quite a few 

3 times in the past, and --

4 CHAIR MUNN: I don't think that's 

5 necessary. I think most of us remember what 

6 it looked like. It was just a very handy 

7 thing to have --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Exactly. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: -- at the beginning of 

10 each meeting. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: There is a couple of 

12 other things. I can just read these off and 

13 then maybe, go back to the Board review 

14 system, itself, and we can give examples of 

15 what I'm talking about here. 

16 The second one was what was called 

17 the SC&A findings report, that -- at one time, 

18 was working on the Board review system, and 

19 now, it doesn't seem to be working. So, it 

20 may be nice to get that back. 

21 Then the third thing is, I don't 

22 know of any way to save the history to either 

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1 a PDF file or to make a hard copy, so that we 

2 can, you know, send it to someone who doesn't 

3 use the Board review system, but maybe they 

4 are reviewing a procedure for us, or something 

5 like that. So, we found that very handy to 

6 have. 

7 A couple of other nagging problems 

8 was the photo-active findings column. If you 

9 look at the main screen, there is a column 

10 called 'photo-active findings'. 

11 I think we have to talk about that 

12 amongst ourselves and see what we want to put 

13 in there. Right now, it doesn't seem to be 

14 giving correct results, or current results. 

15 The last thing I --

16 CHAIR MUNN: Do you want to expand 

17 on that a little? 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: What do you think it 

20 is giving us? 

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, I don't know 

22 what it's giving us. 

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1 DR. ULSH: Actually, I can tell 

2 you. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

4 DR. ULSH: It has to do with the 

5 definition that we want to use for a number of 

6 active findings versus total findings. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

8 DR. ULSH: In my mind, the active 

9 findings is total minus closed. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. 

11 DR. ULSH: But then you have to 

12 determine, what about in abeyance? Is that an 

13 active -- a finding that's in abeyance, is 

14 that an active finding or not? 

15 CHAIR MUNN: It's not active for 

16 us, in terms of actionable item for us. But 

17 it isn't completely closed, as long as the new 

18 document, which changes it, has not come out. 

19 DR. ULSH: I agree, but do you want 

20 in abeyance findings to come up when you click 

21 on the total active findings? 

22 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: There is two 

2 problems here. This is a bigger problem, 

3 here. 

4 First off, let's get rid of the 

5 first problem. The first problem is, let's go 

6 get this first document, OTIB-54. It shows a 

7 total number of findings of being 26. The 

8 total active findings of being 26. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Now, hold on, where 

10 did you go to get OTIB-54? 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I did a sort on 

12 total number of active -- or total number of 

13 findings, or total number of active findings, 

14 whichever one you want, and I sorted it on 

15 that. 

16 So, basically, OTIB-54 is now here, 

17 up here at the top of my screen. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, well, I'm not 

19 going to do that sort, but I'd like to get 

20 that up on my screen, and everybody else's 

21 screen. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: If I click on OTIBNEAL R. GROSS 

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1 54, and we come into the details, we can see 

2 basically --

3 MR. KATZ: Closed findings. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: -- a lot of closed 

5 findings, a lot of findings in abeyance. 

6 So, the column is not summing 

7 correctly. Regardless of what it's summing, 

8 it's not summing it correctly. 

9 If it's just summing total minus 

10 closed, it's not doing that. 

11 So, that is the first thing that 

12 needs to be fixed, and then like Brant says, 

13 then we need to define what do we mean by 

14 active, and I guess I kind of disagree. 

15 I think we should basically have --

16 active should be the ones which this 

17 Subcommittee is actively working on, and so, 

18 we can use this as a tool, to then decide 

19 which procedures we want to focus on. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

21 MR. MARSCHKE: And so, then I would 

22 take the total number of active findings and I 

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1 would subtract out closed. I would subtract 

2 out in abeyance. I might even also subtract 

3 out transferred. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Or maybe even 

6 addressed in some other findings. 

7 So, you know, but it's -- and that 

8 would give us the total number of findings, 

9 which we are actively searching for agreement 

10 on. 

11 DR. MAURO: Steve, I've got a 

12 question. This is also this category where 

13 we've made a finding. It's in there, but it 

14 really has never been addressed by the Work 

15 Group, hasn't come up yet. 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: That's an open 

17 finding. 

18 DR. MAURO: That's an open finding? 

19 So, we don't -- at that -- now, would you 

20 place that in the third column? 

21 MR. MARSCHKE: It's active. 

22 DR. MAURO: The active column, 

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1 because it's really not active, because we 

2 haven't done anything, but it's just a 

3 definition. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, it's active, 

5 in that we -- it's not on as active --

6 DR. MAURO: We knew about it, okay. 

7 Good, I just wanted to make sure, that was 

8 another sub-category. 

9 DR. ULSH: 

10 is in or out? 

11 MR. KATZ: 

12 DR. ULSH: 

13 MR. KATZ: 

14 column. 

So, wait a minute. That 

That's in. 

That's in? 

That's in the active 

15 MR. MARSCHKE: So, basically --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Aren't we at some 

17 time, going to want to know what -- how many 

18 findings on each category? 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we are. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Why don't we just 

21 put it on that page? Why don't we -- rather 

22 than develop a set of rules for what is active 

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1 and what is not active, and then, try to 

2 remember that later on, and then once you've 

3 got the active findings, pulling that up, and 

4 then you can't find the ones that we haven't 

5 even discussed yet, if they're all in the 

6 active number --

7 DR. MAURO: That is the summary 

8 table, the one that -- I mean --

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, the summary 

10 table is basically -- if you go through all 

11 214 documents that are in here and sum those 

12 all up, that's what -- that's what we want on 

13 the summary table. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: So, you want 

15 essentially two different tables, here? 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: We want -- this is 

17 not really a -- I don't consider this a table. 

18 This is basically the screen, the first 

19 screen, the home screen of the review system. 

20 And so, you know, unless you tell 

21 me a way I can print this out and summarize 

22 this and print this out, I don't consider this 

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1 really to be a table. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

3 DR. MAURO: So, it's two different 

4 things we're talking about. 

5 One is, this is an open screen to 

6 help us enter the world, and decide where we 

7 want to navigate ourselves to, as opposed to 

8 the summary table, which is really a way to 

9 sort of summarize, here is where we are, 

10 unless at the end of the day, here is what 

11 we've accomplished. So, it's two different 

12 things, then. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: So, do we plan to 

15 navigate from the summary table? 

16 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: No. 

18 DR. MAURO: No? Then not from the 

19 summary, from this table. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Then if you're 

21 going to navigate from this table, wouldn't 

22 you want to find the -- you might to find the 

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1 findings that you have not yet discussed, 

2 absolutely. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: That we want to 

4 address, correct. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: That you have not 

6 yet discussed. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: You said we have 

9 several documents, we've not yet discussed. 

10 Let's talk about those, and if it's active, 

11 you don't know. If you're using active and 

12 inactive, it's one of several categories, 

13 inactive. 

14 If you're going to navigate from 

15 the table, be specific in the table, and then 

16 just go there, and then you know, that can be 

17 your summary table. You just need a way to 

18 print it, right? I mean --

19 DR. MAURO: I'm with you. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't understand. 

21 The purpose of this table is to show -- it 

22 can show work accomplished and work remaining. 

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1 If you want to show that, but if 

2 you do that in a table, then you should have a 

3 navigable table, that shows all the 

4 specificity, because you're going to want to 

5 do that. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I agree, you are 

7 absolutely correct, with respect to our needed 

8 ability to be able to pull out things that we 

9 have not addressed at all, and I have never, 

10 in my mind, viewed the summary table as being 

11 a navigable table, that we were going to work 

12 from, no. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: It is simply a report 

15 for us to look at, each time we sit down to 

16 say, "Okay, does this look any different than 

17 it did last time," and have we really 

18 accomplished anything? That's the only thing 

19 that is used for. 

20 But yes, in terms of being able to 

21 pull out the distinctive, what's in abeyance, 

22 what is -- what is transferred and what is 

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1 truly active and that we have not looked at it 

2 yet? 

3 We need some way to be able to see 

4 those things, now. 

5 DR. ULSH: Okay, we can, and you 

6 have the architecture in place, right here, 

7 status filter. 

8 Now, I'm not saying that it's 

9 working or not, but theoretically, at least, 

10 you could pull up any status you want and see, 

11 you know, those findings, theoretically. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: What you basically 

13 want to click on, you click on 'open', and 

14 this is what it gave me, when it did the sort 

15 on open status, and I don't know why it is 

16 giving me this, to tell you the truth. 

17 I could see, for IG-001, why it's 

18 giving me these open ones, but why is it 

19 giving me the TBD-6000? Why is it giving me -

20 - I could see why it's giving me this one, 

21 because it has an open one associated with it. 

22 It seems to be giving some 

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1 documents, and then again, why is it giving me 

2 this document, TIB-13, because it doesn't seem 

3 to -- you know -- and it doesn't list any open 

4 ones underneath it. 

5 I don't know how this -- if we want 

6 to use that, we have to understand how it's 

7 working. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: And right now, I 

10 don't understand how it's working. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Are we due for another 

12 visit from the gurus, or do you need to be 

13 spending another day, working with the folks 

14 who are expert on this table, I mean, on this 

15 application? 

16 MR. KATZ: We'll just ask a bit, 

17 but TBD-6000, what is your question about 

18 that, because actually, that --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Why is it here? I 

20 sorted on the --

21 MR. KATZ: It's a document. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: I sorted on open 

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1 findings. 

2 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

3 MR. MARSCHKE: And basically, it 

4 reduced the total number of findings from 214, 

5 down to 23 documents, which I assume, these 23 

6 documents are the only ones that have opened 

7 comments in them. 

8 This one, IG-1, it lists --

9 MR. KATZ: Right. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: -- half dozen or so, 

11 open comments. 

12 MR. KATZ: So, is your question for 

13 --

14 MR. MARSCHKE: The question is, why 

15 is TBD-6000 here? It doesn't list any open 

16 comments in here. 

17 MR. KATZ: It doesn't list any, but 

18 it does have one open comment. I mean, it's 

19 accurate, in that it's showing there --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, I believe all 

21 of the TBD-6000 comments were transferred to 

22 the TBD-6000. 

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1 MR. KATZ: Well, they are, and 

2 that's why it shows that. 

3 MR. MARSCHKE: So, why is this --

4 again, why is this showing up on this screen, 

5 on a sort for 'open'? 

6 MR. KATZ: Okay, I mean, well, 

7 because it is open with the TBD-6000 Work 

8 Group. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: But it's not in this 

10 database. 

11 MR. KATZ: This database has 

12 everything in there, doesn't it? 

13 MR. MARSCHKE: If I pull up this 

14 TBD-6000 --

15 CHAIR MUNN: It should have all 14 

16 findings in it. 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: It should have all 

18 14 findings in it, and they should be all 

19 identified as transferred, none of them 

20 identified as being open. 

21 DR. MAURO: So, it's more of a 

22 matter of us understanding the terminology and 

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1 how it's intended, and we're not quite sure --

2 MR. MARSCHKE: That's the first 

3 step, is to understand what they're doing 

4 here. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: This reporting is 

6 listing the open findings for documents that 

7 have open findings, but it keeps the list of 

8 the name of the other documents, as well, 

9 isn't that what it's doing? 

10 So, then we're back -- aren't we 

11 back, then, to an accounting issue of what's 

12 open and what's closed, because this is called 

13 -- or what's active or not, because it's 

14 listed as an active, one active finding, but 

15 when in fact, we would say it doesn't have any 

16 active findings, because --

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, that's the 

18 thing I talked to before. 

19 I mean, basically, we don't --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know how 

21 it's accounting. The accounting is the --

22 MR. MARSCHKE: This is the area 

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1 that --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: This is reported. 

3 We know about that error. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: And then this 

5 question here is, it did -- it's not basically 

6 listing all the documents, because now, it's 

7 only -- if you look on the upper left --

8 right-hand side, it's only listing 23 

9 documents. 

10 DR. ULSH: So, how did it get down 

11 to 23? 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: It went down, 

13 somehow, it edited out about 190 documents, 

14 and went from 214, down to 23. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, do we know 

16 that? 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think we do. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: You're going to go 

19 down to the bottom of the screen, the bottom 

20 of the first screen, basically, and you can 

21 see, there is only two pages --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, there is only 

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1 two pages there, you're right. 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Two pages, so, there 

3 is -- a lot of the documents are gone, but 

4 what is the -- but what the criteria is for 

5 getting rid of these documents and keeping 

6 them, I don't know. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Obviously, the open 

8 means something to the -- and probably the 

9 right thing. 

10 If we go back to the first 

11 question, about TBD-6000, when you just ran 

12 down those quickly, I think the -- I think 

13 that is probably an error, because when we get 

14 down to the bottom, the very last one was not 

15 really and truly a finding. It was a test. 

16 You see, there are only 13 

17 findings, there. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Right. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: And what looks like 

20 that, probably is finding 14, there. 

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Probably. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: It says test one. So, 

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1 that one appears, and even it says 

2 'transferred'. 

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Even after that, it 

4 says transferred. So, it shouldn't show up as 

5 12. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: It shouldn't show up. 

7 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know what it 

8 is counting. I don't know what it is sorting 

9 on, and I don't know what it is counting, when 

10 it does the total active findings. 

11 I don't know how it's making that 

12 count, and when it does a sort, I don't know 

13 how it's doing the sort. 

14 DR. MAURO: Is it possible that the 

15 person that is -- you know, once the frame 

16 work goes up, in whatever form it's in, I 

17 mean, all the data is -- let's assume for a 

18 moment that all the data is in here. 

19 It's just a matter of, there has to 

20 be a person that is going to take all this 

21 stuff to bin it, and load it up and populate 

22 the database, in a way that they sort of 

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1 understand, what is it we're trying to do. 

2 Is it possible, this person is 

3 actually doing the mechanics, and it's 

4 difficult for them, because they're not living 

5 in this meeting and understanding all the 

6 nuances. 

7 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm sure that's the 

8 problem, yes. I'm sure that is what the 

9 problem is. 

10 MR. KATZ: Sure. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Steve, the first 

12 page of the thing says that there are only 13 

13 findings. What page are you on, that shows 

14 14? I am looking at it, and it says there is 

15 13 findings for TBD-6000. How did you get to 

16 where you are? 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: I did a sort. Do 

18 you see where it says 'status filter' here, 

19 Paul? 

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

21 MR. MARSCHKE: I did a sort and I 

22 pulled down 'open', and I sorted on 'open'. 

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, but you list 

2 total findings as 14, and if you go back to 

3 the -- I am at the initial tracking page, and 

4 it lists number of findings for TBD-6000 as 

5 13. 

6 DR. ULSH: I've got 14. 

7 MR. MARSCHKE: I've got 14. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Are you in documents 

9 under Board review? 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, documents 

11 under Board review. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Are you in there? 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm under all the 

15 documents. I am filtered. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: All documents, all 

18 Work Groups. 

19 DR. ULSH: Hey, Paul, do you have a 

20 button the right that says 'clear'? 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, and I just did 

22 it. 

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1 MR. KATZ: Just clear it. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I just did. 

3 DR. ULSH: And it still says 13? 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, let's do it 

5 again, then. Yes, it still says 13. 

6 DR. ULSH: That is very strange. 

7 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: So, the Chairman of 

9 the Work Group gets the correct number? 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do you have 14 up 

11 there? 

12 CHAIR MUNN: No, the Chairman. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, you're talking 

14 about the TBD, the 6000 Work Group? 

15 CHAIR MUNN: The Chairman of the 

16 Work Group. It's the right number. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: It goes to the 

19 chart. 

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: I want to get this 

21 down to a lower number. I don't know what I'm 

22 looking at, that is different. 

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know, I just 

2 went out and came back in and I get 14, Paul. 

3 So, I don't know how you have 13. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Still, mine is 14. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: But my opening page 

6 doesn't -- let's see, document title. What is 

7 your second document? 

8 MR. MARSCHKE: ID-1. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: My second one is 

10 OCAS-IG-1, right. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: You've got 24 total 

12 findings? 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Twenty-four. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and seven active. 

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: And 13 active. 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: I got seven active. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: No, I've got seven 

18 active. 

19 MR. MARSCHKE: You're looking at a 

20 different version of the --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: How can he be, 

22 though? He's got the --

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I don't know, I'm 

3 just looking at what I opened. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I'll bet you 

5 opened the first one, the interim one, which 

6 is where I started --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, how did I get 

8 to that? 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, yes, that's 

10 right. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, okay, you did 

13 that. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: How did I get to 

15 that, and then --

16 CHAIR MUNN: You took the first 

17 train, instead of the last train. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, you're in the 

19 old one. 

20 Just close it, close that one, all 

21 together. So, down here, Board review system, 

22 that's what we're using, now. 

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, I have to --

2 MR. MARSCHKE: You hit that one, 

3 yes. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: I went to document 

5 control, and that was --

6 CHAIR MUNN: The one that we have 

7 always used in the past. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: That is version 

9 two. We're on version three, now. 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, I've got it 

11 now. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: When I click on 

13 TBD-6000 and open the findings, there are 13. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: There are 13? There 

15 should be --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Plus a test 

17 finding. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, now, I 

19 understand it and am seeing the report. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: The test finding is 

21 the 14 finding. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Which is -- that's 

2 just got the clean-up thing, that would be --

3 you know, they were testing something about 

4 the system. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: But it says 

6 'transferred' also, and therefore, we 

7 shouldn't have the one active. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I don't --

9 MR. KATZ: That is the test 

10 finding. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, it depends on 

12 how they define active, you know. If you 

13 define active, that's what we started here, is 

14 -- it shouldn't be one. It should either be 

15 14 or zero. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: Or zero, one or the 

17 other. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Either transferred 

19 in or out, as active. 

20 So, I don't know what they're --

21 how they're doing their count. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: So, Steve, can we just 

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1 say, you still have five -- those five that 

2 you indicated, are going to hang us up at one 

3 time or another. 

4 There are five issues that need to 

5 be worked out. 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, and then there 

7 was -- well, the sixth one, we just -- we 

8 talked about, was -- and I didn't have that on 

9 my list, because I don't think I knew about 

10 it, was this question of, what does it sort 

11 now, when you do a sort -- a status filter? 

12 Why are some of the documents sorted out? Why 

13 are some of the documents that don't seem to 

14 have issues in that status, included? 

15 MR. KATZ: So, Steve, can you just 

16 -- can't you just come down here, spend the 

17 day working it, until you've gotten through 

18 all the kinks, with them? 

19 DR. ULSH: Well, we did that 

20 before. 

21 MR. KATZ: I know. 

22 DR. ULSH: Steve came in town and 

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1 we had a list, a very long list. 

2 MR. KATZ: I know, and you got 

3 through a bunch. 

4 DR. ULSH: A bunch of them. 

5 MR. KATZ: Right. 

6 DR. ULSH: This is an iterative 

7 process. 

8 MR. KATZ: Right, I know. 

9 DR. ULSH: It's taking too long. 

10 MR. KATZ: Right. 

11 DR. ULSH: But I mean, we're much 

12 closer today, than we were, but there's still 

13 these lingering issues. 

14 MR. KATZ: I know, and that's what 

15 I'm saying, I'm saying, where do we put them 

16 to bed? 

17 DR. ULSH: Well, the problem is, is 

18 that if Steve comes in town and we say, "Here 

19 is all the issues," they're not going to 

20 program it real-time. It's not like by the 

21 time Steve leaves, everything is hunky-dory. 

22 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

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1 DR. MAURO: There is no inter2 active online, where Steve can work with your 

3 software people, and just continue --

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, what we can do 

5 -- I mean, I -- we can -- we have been given a 

6 list of problems now, and you know, if you can 

7 go back, you can say, one of these have been 

8 worked off, and then we can test them. 

9 MR. KATZ: Right. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Because I can test 

11 it. 

12 DR. MAURO: Right, just like we're 

13 doing now. 

14 MR. KATZ: But see, the thing is 

15 that just giving them a list, doesn't seem 

16 like enough. It seems like it needs sort of 

17 hand-in-hand work. 

18 So, whether you have to be here 

19 presently, or whether you need to be on the 

20 phone with them, when they're working on it, 

21 it seems like they need actual interactive 

22 real-time help, to know what they're doing. 

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35 
 

1 It seems like it's more than just 

2 routing out a 'to-do' list, I think. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Let's set that up, 

4 by phone. Brant or I will be the person 

5 sitting with the developer, and we'll be on 

6 the phone with Steve. 

7 MR. KATZ: Right. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: And we'll show to 

9 the developers, what we're seeing, what we 

10 expect to see. 

11 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And say, now, 

13 you've got this stuff to do, let us know when 

14 you're done, and we'll have another phone 

15 call. 

16 MR. KATZ: Right. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Because doing it 

18 the -- this is --

19 MR. KATZ: There is no point in 

20 doing it here. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: There is no point 

22 in doing it here. 

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1 DR. MAURO: Yes, we shouldn't be 

2 doing this here. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: This should have 

4 been -- you know, we should get this wrapped 

5 up. 

6 MR. KATZ: Right. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And it just -- it's 

8 going to require us, either Brant or me, to 

9 dedicate some time to working with the 

10 developers, between -- you know, not waiting 

11 for the next meeting to be coming up on it. 

12 MR. KATZ: No. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: To start right 

14 away, next week. 

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Question here. 

16 MR. KATZ: That sounds good. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'll ask both Steve 

18 and maybe John. 

19 TBD Appendix BB is a good example 

20 of one where there is a Work Group that is 

21 looking at all of these findings, and have 

22 several iterations past the finding, in a 

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1 matrix, right now. 

2 DR. MAURO: Yes, that's right. 

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: And in fact, you 

4 guys have updated that. 

5 DR. MAURO: We saw it yesterday. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Now, of course, we 

7 said we would ultimately like to be able to do 

8 that, here, and I think logistically, we 

9 could, in principle. 

10 DR. MAURO: We could, yes. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: But the way -- this 

12 shows that as transferred, but within what 

13 we're doing, there is different -- you know, 

14 there is closed items and so on. 

15 Can we work within the system, as 

16 it is here, where they're all marked 

17 'transferred', or is there a way to indicate 

18 here, that this is being worked on, say, by 

19 the TBD-6000 Work Group, and have it still 

20 there, as an active item? Do you know what 

21 I'm saying? 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: I know what you're 

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1 saying, Paul. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because we want to 

3 -- we said we want to people to be able work 

4 in this system, but if everything they do 

5 shows that it's being transferred out, then 

6 it's -- it looks --

7 DR. MAURO: Well, you're posing a 

8 question which transcends what -- I mean, so, 

9 ultimately, what we'd like to be able to do, 

10 not only for TBD-6000 --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

12 DR. MAURO: -- but for every Work 

13 Group. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

15 DR. MAURO: Whereby, there is a 

16 coupling, so, that it becomes fully 

17 integrated. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

19 DR. MAURO: But I think that we're 

20 still at a point where we still have to get 

21 this one fixed, but the next step -- let's say 

22 we get this thing -- get this all cleared up. 

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1 The next step, I would imagine, if 

2 you wanted to, basically, open another window, 

3 where you can go into TBD-6000 world, and work 

4 on it, there is really no reason -- you know, 

5 in principle, it can't be done, but I think 

6 that's another change of the page. 

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, I agree. It 

8 just occurred to me that at some point, we'll 

9 have to have a way to work within this, and 

10 each item will have a different status, than 

11 transferred, in terms of its own matrix. 

12 That Work Group will have, you 

13 know, closed or in-process or --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: An action that 

15 we'll start -- adherence to this TBD-6000, and 

16 we will start to load the TBD-6000 piece of 

17 this. 

18 In other words, there will be a way 

19 to log on to this same system, look at TBD20 6000, 6001 Work Group, on the first filter, 

21 where it says 'Work Group filter', and it will 

22 bring up the documents that have been 

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1 transferred from this group, because that will 

2 be the first thing. 

3 We'll get there, because we've got 

4 those. 

5 DR. MAURO: Right. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And we can also 

7 then, start working on adding the findings 

8 from, you know, the matrix on TBD-6000, or 

9 whatever is being discussed there. 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, you can take 

11 this and hit the right filter, and then it 

12 would move it into that Work Group's realm. 

13 DR. MAURO: Another domain. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, think of it as 

15 sliding it, this table, into the table for 

16 6000 Work Group. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Let's wait just one 

18 minute, here. I certainly don't want to hold 

19 up this train, because that is exactly what we 

20 want to happen, ultimately. 

21 But when we first started out with 

22 this, it was our philosophy that our big 

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1 problem had to do with getting all of the 

2 complete information and item history into the 

3 hands of the Working Group that was going to 

4 deal with it. 

5 We still haven't worked out that 

6 basic problem, yet. The fact that we have the 

7 Chair of the Work Group we're talking about, 

8 sitting at the table right now, makes it easy 

9 for us to talk about TBD-6000. 

10 But I am thinking about all of the 

11 other transferred items that we have. 

12 We had agreed that in almost all 

13 cases, transferred items were going into a 

14 Work Group where the total number of findings 

15 was relatively small. That is, small enough 

16 to be easily handled by our standard Excel 

17 matrix, not the kind of burden of information 

18 that we have, here. 

19 I would suggest that before we 

20 start working on the Work Group's end of it, 

21 we get this part of our project, where we want 

22 it, before we start the next one, simply 

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1 because I don't think our original philosophy 

2 has changed, with respect to the complexity of 

3 what the Work Group has to deal with, with 

4 respect to what we're dealing with, here. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I agree with 

6 that Wanda, and I just wanted to make sure 

7 that as we finish sort of polishing where we 

8 are, that there is a capability of doing this 

9 transfer, and apparently, it's already built 

10 in, to go for --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: This was -- in this 

12 -- this design, for this application was 

13 intended to serve the same function --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: For everybody. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Correct. 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Let me ask now, how 

18 would this work, if like the Work Group 

19 decides that okay, they received this 

20 transferred finding, from the Procedure 

21 Subcommittee, and now, they bring it up into 

22 their screen, and they work on it, and they 

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1 close it. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: And they send us an 

3 email, telling us that they closed it and 

4 giving us their history. 

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, so, and it's 

6 closed, and this -- and basically, this work -

7 - this Subcommittee, then, has -- accepts the 

8 closed status? 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Exactly. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: So, basically, one 

11 status is working for the finding? There is 

12 not like a -- you know, it's not like we have 

13 to keep -- I know we talked about this at one 

14 time, and we wanted to keep -- we discussed 

15 whether or not we had to keep a Subcommittee 

16 status and a Work Group status, and whether or 

17 not they were the same or separate, and 

18 because if Paul's Work Group shows that, you 

19 know -- he works on this, and this was closed, 

20 theoretically, he has the capability of coming 

21 in here and he can add -- he can change the 

22 status. 

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1 He can come in here, or somebody in 

2 his Work Group can come in here and change the 

3 status on here, add a little note and say, 

4 "This was changed by the TBD Subcommittee, 

5 during their meeting on such-and-such, and 

6 it's closed." 

7 And so, in theory, there is -- they 

8 can do that, with what they have available 

9 here, now --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Either that, or it 

11 stays in the other document, as a closed item. 

12 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: And at some point, 

14 for example, you could ask for the status of 

15 transferred items, and what is the status of 

16 13 transferred items from TBD -- or yes, TBD17 6000, and you know, 10 are closed and three 

18 are in abeyance, or something like that. 

19 MR. MARSCHKE: That is the problem 

20 we're going to have, if we have only one 

21 status, we're going to lose -- and you change 

22 that status in your Work Group, then the 

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1 Subcommittee is not going to be able to know -

2 - are not going to be able to do a sort --

3 when they do a sort on transferred, that 

4 finding is not going to show up --

5 DR. MAURO: Let me say something. 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: -- because it's not 

7 a transferred finding anymore. It's a closed 

8 finding. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: I know, but you 

10 could list the status of transferred findings, 

11 is what I'm saying. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Because you don't 

13 know which findings are transferred anymore. 

14 Once they've been closed, there is no longer a 

15 transferred finding. 

16 DR. MAURO: I think what he means 

17 is --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, I'm saying you 

19 leave it -- you leave this forever as 

20 transferred, possibly. We don't have to solve 

21 this, now. I just want to --

22 MR. MARSCHKE: But that was the 

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1 Catch-22 we got into, when we talked about it 

2 last time. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: And I'm working purely 

4 from memory, which is never a safe thing to 

5 do, but my memory was, we had agreed that this 

6 Subcommittee would retain control of the final 

7 status, that the Work Group would notify the 

8 Subcommittee, that they had closed it and how 

9 they had closed it, and that we would retain 

10 the authority to change what goes into the 

11 actual database, itself. Now, that was my 

12 memory. 

13 DR. MAURO: Let me say something. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

15 DR. MAURO: Yes, I was there also, 

16 from the beginning, as you recall. 

17 What happened is this. There are a 

18 number of procedures, whether they were 

19 generic or site-specific, that we reviewed, as 

20 part of the Subcommittee, and we have 

21 findings, okay, and that became our domain, 

22 and it turned out that there's 550 findings 

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1 for about 105 procedures, and that is the 

2 world we created. 

3 Then we realized that we're going 

4 to have to keep track of all of this, all 

5 right, and also, we realized, oh, some of 

6 these really are -- I mean, we have to 

7 remember, I'm going someplace with this. 

8 For our own purposes, within our 

9 own domain, we had to come to grips, well, 

10 what are we going to do with the fact that 

11 TBD-6000, or whatever it is, is here, and we 

12 have it in our database, but the reality is, 

13 it probably never really should have been. It 

14 should have never been triggered under a 

15 Subcommittee. It's really something that 

16 belongs to the Rocky Flats, or it belongs to 

17 TBD-6000, but it is here. 

18 So, is there anything we can do 

19 that adds value, since it's here and we've got 

20 a new database? 

21 So, as just a service, we say, 

22 "Well, we'll keep track of it," and we do. 

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1 But now, here is where I'm going with this. 

2 The fact that we've done that and 

3 that for -- within our domain, we're going to 

4 keep track and we did the transfer, and as you 

5 said, when that eventually is resolved, they 

6 will inform us and we can close it. That's 

7 for purposes of our domain. 

8 But remember, Paul's domain, with 

9 Appendix BB, for example, in TBD-6000, and 

10 these sorts of things, these have a life of 

11 their own. 

12 They're unfolding. They're being 

13 added to. They're changing. They're active, 

14 and I don't -- and I think that it's 

15 dangerous, to start to think somehow, this 

16 Subcommittee is going to enter that world. 

17 I think that all the Subcommittee 

18 is -- we've got our 500-and-so findings, and 

19 we're tracking them, and if we designate one 

20 as transferred, it's transferred, and yes, 

21 when that group is finished, they let us know 

22 and that's it. 

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1 If it starts to grow, in other 

2 words, if all of the sudden, there is another 

3 dozen findings associated with a particular 

4 OTIB, that grows, in that other domain, I 

5 don't think we try to grab after that. 

6 We leave it alone. I think we have 

7 to do that, otherwise, it's going to be all 

8 consuming, and we're going to self-destruct. 

9 I think we just stay within our 

10 boundaries. We have a boundary now, I think 

11 550 comments that we have been actively 

12 tracking. Let's just track those. The ones 

13 that are transferred, let's designate them as 

14 transferred. They have been transferred, 

15 documented and then I agree, at some point, 

16 let the other Work Group -- let us know we've 

17 closed it, we documented it on this date, we 

18 were advised that this is closed and we closed 

19 it. We're done. That is it. 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, that could --

21 DR. MAURO: Why do more than that? 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Because some of the 

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1 other Work Groups wanted to take advantage of 

2 this database. 

3 DR. MAURO: That is a new database. 

4 That is a new domain that we want to create, 

5 that is spinning off from this database. 

6 I think we've got to keep it clean, 

7 because if we want to spin off another -- I 

8 mean, look, I'm just giving you my opinion. 

9 If you want to spin off another 

10 function, because this turns out to be a 

11 convenient platform, great. But right now, 

12 from our perspective, that is a meta issue. 

13 That transcends, what our mission is, here. 

14 That goes off into a bigger 

15 mission, which goes to the whole Board, as a 

16 whole. 

17 Do we want this to be the platform, 

18 upon which other domains orbit, so, that they 

19 could track too, because it's a convenience, 

20 but I think that is a question that is so big, 

21 we can't even talk about it. 

22 Just to talk about a one Site 

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1 Profile, or one OTIB, or whatever it is, and 

2 somehow say, "We're going to use this as a 

3 launching point to track something else," 

4 which I think is what you guys originally 

5 tried to do, and it was a nightmare. 

6 I mean, you really --

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, this is --

8 DR. MAURO: Are you biting off too 

9 much? 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: This is still set up 

11 to do that. I mean, if you go back and look 

12 at -- I mean, this -- the way this database 

13 has been set up is, that you can -- you know, 

14 I can't remember where it is, but on the 

15 opening page --

16 DR. ULSH: The first Work Group 

17 filter. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: -- Work Group 

19 filter, here, it's all set up. You can select 

20 whichever Work Group you happen to be in --

21 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: -- and you will get 

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1 a database tailored --

2 DR. ULSH: Of your stuff. 

3 MR. MARSCHKE: -- of your stuff. 

4 DR. MAURO: Right. 

5 MR. MARSCHKE: But it's all going 

6 into the same, and pulling data out of the --

7 there is not like two-dozen databases out 

8 there, each one separately. There is one big 

9 database, all 550 issues are in one big 

10 database. It pulls out the ones, which are 

11 identified for your particular Work Group or 

12 Subcommittee. 

13 DR. MAURO: That is here. 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: That is what this is 

15 designed for. 

16 DR. MAURO: Well, what happens if 

17 there is another Subcommittee that --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: That is right there. 

19 DR. MAURO: I know, but that has 

20 its own life, and they find new issues --

21 CHAIR MUNN: Well, hold on, let's 

22 test this, right now. 

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1 Let's test the Work Group on TBD2 6000, and see if it shows that it has these 

3 transferred items. 

4 DR. ULSH: It doesn't. 

5 DR. MAURO: It doesn't. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: It doesn't? 

7 DR. ULSH: I just looked. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: The cell is here. 

10 DR. MAURO: The shell is there. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: But the question I 

12 was raising originally is this. Suppose we do 

13 that, and it -- and you know, we're beyond the 

14 shell, and these items come up. Am I working 

15 on this, as it is, or am I in a new domain, 

16 where I can assign different categories, 

17 besides the transferred one? 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: If I were to put my 

19 IT hat on, I would assume you're working as a 

20 -- as is. 

21 There is one big data, but with an 

22 IT hat on --

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: But when this comes 

2 up for me in the TBD-6000 Work Group, it's not 

3 a transferred item. That is the point I was 

4 making. 

5 

6 

7 to show 

CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and if this --

MEMBER ZIEMER: That this has got 

up in a -- sort of a parallel 

8 universe, do you see what I'm saying, Steve? 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: It's been 

10 transferred to you. It's not transferred from 

11 you. 

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, no, I know, but 

13 if I change -- if I change that, suppose, I 

14 change this to in abeyance, for our Work 

15 Group, for whatever we're doing at the moment, 

16 and that is the status of it for us, where 

17 does it show up in the system? That is all 

18 I'm asking. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: That can be 

20 designed. 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: That can be 

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1 designed. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: And I don't think 

3 we have to solve that today. It's just the 

4 issue of, if we can work in this platform, and 

5 update the matrix, and show its status, so 

6 that for -- ideally, if someone says, "Oh, 

7 it's transferred, I can click on that and move 

8 into the transferred item and see what the 

9 group is doing with it," that's all I'm 

10 asking. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: If you'll recall, 

12 when we designed this --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is what I 

14 thought we were doing. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: -- we have a status 

16 for things that you would receive. It's 

17 called imported. 

18 That was the status we invented for 

19 exactly that situation, and so, the design --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: But it's still 

21 showed here as transferred. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, it may not be 

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1 built this way, but the design initially 

2 envisioned a Work Group or Subcommittee 

3 specific status. 

4 In other words, this would always 

5 be -- it was always be --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Imported. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: -- in this one, and 

8 it would come to life as imported --

9 CHAIR MUNN: In the other one. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: -- in TBD-6000. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: And I can have my 

12 own categories. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And so, that would 

14 be the TBD-6000 specific status, which can 

15 then go to --

16 MR. KATZ: Closed. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: 

18 on the list. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: 

20 concept is there. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: 

-- the various ones 

Okay, I think the 

So, it's set up to 

22 be that way, whether the data table has 

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1 actually been built that way or not, I won't 

2 swear to, but we'll just tell them to build 

3 them that way. 

4 DR. MAURO: Let me just ask you a 

5 question. Now, the TBD-6000 is off and 

6 running, and they have in front of them, a 

7 tracking system, for their issues. Some of 

8 those issues that they're tracking are the 

9 ones that have been transferred to them. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

11 DR. MAURO: And now, it's in front 

12 of them. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

14 DR. MAURO: And they have not only 

15 those, they have a whole bunch of others, that 

16 are being added to --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: We have the SEC 

18 tracking, which is not --

19 DR. MAURO: Right, so, what I'm 

20 getting at is, there has got to be a clean 

21 boundary, and I think you just defined it, 

22 fine. 

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1 We say transferred. It's 

2 transferred. It's been accepted. It's 

3 accepted, but it's over there, now, it's not 

4 with us anymore. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

6 DR. MAURO: It has a life of its 

7 own, over there, and we should -- in other 

8 words, we don't look back again. We try to 

9 keep this active, whatever is going on there. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I would -- we were 

11 arguing that, just like you were saying a 

12 while ago, I would argue against trying to 

13 capture all the work from the other Work Group 

14 --

15 DR. MAURO: Not now. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: -- over here. 

17 DR. MAURO: Maybe two years from 

18 now. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, ever. 

20 You can write a report to do that. 

21 DR. MAURO: Never, never. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, we could 

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1 --

2 DR. MAURO: I was afraid that's 

3 where you were headed, that's all I'm saying. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: No, I agree, we 

5 could have our developers write a report that 

6 would do that, but you don't want to be 

7 messing with this --

8 DR. MAURO: Right, you don't want 

9 to mess with this. 

10 MR. KATZ: This is supposed to be a 

11 work tool, to make our jobs easier --

12 DR. MAURO: For us. 

13 MR. KATZ: -- not more difficult. 

14 DR. MAURO: Exactly, right. 

15 MR. KATZ: Although we would --

16 DR. MAURO: So, we're in violent 

17 agreement on this. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: We started on an 

19 issue, we never quite resolved, because I 

20 distracted the conversation, which was what is 

21 the total finding and what is the active 

22 finding? 

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1 DR. MAURO: And that shall start. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: So, I was guilty of 

3 taking us away from it, but we never really 

4 resolved, what statuses we wanted to call 

5 active and which ones -- therefore, which ones 

6 are inactive, of the list, and if you click on 

7 the filter, you click on the status filter, 

8 you can see all the statuses. 

9 And so, we can decided which ones 

10 you think should be considered active 

11 findings. 

12 DR. ULSH: Yes, there are the 

13 categories. You've got total, that is 

14 regardless of status. Which one of those do 

15 you want to subtract out, to be left as an 

16 active finding? 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, the first 

18 question is, if assuming, you're going to work 

19 within the confines of the present structure -

20 - now, Stu suggested that we add more columns. 

21 I mean, so, that is also an option. 

22 But if we want to work within the 

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1 present structure of the first screen here, 

2 basically, these four columns, you know, then 

3 we have to decide what we want to include as 

4 this active category. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I suggest that the 

6 additional column is not thinking about the 

7 filter. If you've got that filter there, that 

8 accomplishes the same thing as a navigable 

9 report with all of the columns. 

10 MR. KATZ: Right. 

11 DR. MAURO: I mean, I've got a 

12 simpler question. What even -- you have total 

13 findings. What you're really saying is, 

14 "Well, what is the status of all of those 

15 findings?" 

16 You could call them -- you know, 

17 some have not been opened yet. Some are 

18 active and opened. Some are in abeyance. 

19 Some have been -- in a funny sort of way, if 

20 you're going to tier down and be nested, you 

21 don't even need this separation of total 

22 factors. 

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1 It gives me, here are our findings. 

2 There are a total of 14 that everybody reads. 

3 There are 14 findings, and in theory, one 

4 could go in and say, "How many of those now, 

5 have been closed? 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, we want to use 

7 it as a tool for assigning work, John. 

8 DR. MAURO: Right. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: So, one of the ways 

10 that you could use this as a tool for 

11 assigning work is, is Wanda can come in here, 

12 or Stu can come in here, or Brant can come in 

13 here, and they click on -- if the thing would 

14 stay still, click on 'active', and find out 

15 how many --

16 DR. MAURO: The distinction on 

17 active is only -- these are the ones that are 

18 not closed. 

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, that is the 

20 way it is, right now. That is what it -- that 

21 is what we're trying --

22 CHAIR MUNN: We don't know. 

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: -- to figure out, 

2 what do we want, as active? 

3 DR. MAURO: We should have a 

4 definition. 

5 MR. MARSCHKE: And we can use --

6 well, the thing -- the advantage of having 

7 this column here is that we can look at this 

8 and say, "Okay, OTIB," assuming it's working 

9 correctly, "OTIB-54 has 26 active findings. 

10 Let's focus our efforts on OTIB-54." 

11 DR. MAURO: Right. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: And let's get those 

13 numbers down. So, that is the advantage of 

14 having this additional column. 

15 DR. MAURO: That other column, 

16 that's good. This is all -- we're inventing 

17 it, and we're comfortable with it. I guess, 

18 each of us has our own perspective on how 

19 information should be managed and disclosed, 

20 and I just -- now, it's just a matter of what 

21 do you prefer? 

22 CHAIR MUNN: So, we do have to get 

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1 a definitive answer about what this particular 

2 list of total active findings means, until we 

3 have the definition correct. 

4 DR. ULSH: Right. Can you click on 

5 the status filter, again, so, it drops down, 

6 all the different statuses? 

7 So, I don't really care, what 

8 number you want in there. You just have to 

9 decide. Tell me what columns to --

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, exactly. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Can I ask a 

12 question? You view the screen, in terms of 

13 the work assignment. You view this as a tool 

14 for this --

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: -- Subcommittee? 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: 

19 Subcommittee? 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, 

22 abeyance to closed. 

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1 MR. KATZ: Right. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: And then take it 

3 out of active --

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, right. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: -- because this has 

6 got nothing to do with abeyance. 

7 DR. MAURO: I mean, I'm thinking --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Then you want to 

9 take transferred out, as well. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Right. 

12 DR. MAURO: Under active, why would 

13 you have closed? 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: We don't. Everybody 

15 agrees, closed is out. 

16 DR. MAURO: In abeyance, for our 

17 purposes, that is closed. 

18 MR. KATZ: No, you have open in19 progress, imported, and that's it. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That's it. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

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1 DR. ULSH: Open, in-progress and? 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: And imported. 

3 MR. KATZ: And imported. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Correct, yes. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Total, active? 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: I mean, I think 

7 there is -- if you use this as a tool, I would 

8 think NIOSH would want to use this as a tool -

9 -

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we'll keep 

11 our own. 

12 MR. KATZ: Yes, they keep their 

13 own, right. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll take -- the 

15 filter, you know, abeyance -- we'll get the 

16 abeyance findings and we'll do it ourselves. 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, okay. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. 

19 DR. ULSH: Open, closed, in 

20 progress, plus imported? 

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

22 DR. ULSH: And that's it, active. 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: And the --

2 DR. ULSH: That is all we need. 

3 MR. KATZ: Right. 

4 DR. MAURO: This is how you do it. 

5 When you do things by Committee, this is how 

6 you do it. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, yes. 

8 DR. MAURO: That's all there is to 

9 it, and we live with it. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: The other thing I 

11 wanted to point out is, this doesn't seem to 

12 be working. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that's the 

14 report. The SC&A findings were just -- it's 

15 the summary findings report, that used to give 

16 -- it started with like -- it was like a group 

17 by data finding, right? 

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: It was grouped by 

20 data finding and it said how many from that 

21 data were the total number and how many are 

22 open, and that put them in all of the 

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1 categories. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: Correct, and I found 

3 that a very handy tool --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: -- in making reports 

6 to other --

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, this is 

8 different than the summary report. This is 

9 different than the -- this is different --

10 CHAIR MUNN: I understand. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: All right. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: But what I was 

14 discussing was what you would get, right? 

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, exactly. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, remember what 

17 it looks like. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, simple, short. 

19 DR. ULSH: Are we to the point 

20 where it would be useful for me to sum up the 

21 open items on -- the corrections that need to 

22 be done here? 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: It would be very 

2 helpful for you to sum --

3 DR. ULSH: Okay, here is what I 

4 have. One problem is that we can't yet link 

5 attachments. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

7 DR. ULSH: The second problem is, 

8 the definition of active versus total, and we 

9 just talked about what that means. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

11 DR. ULSH: The third problem is 

12 that the SC&A findings report is not working. 

13 Another one is, we need the ability 

14 to save findings history to PDF or hard copy, 

15 and another one is the status filter, we don't 

16 know what is going on, how the documents are 

17 screened out. 

18 Those are the problems that I have 

19 listed. Have I missed any? 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: The summary table. 

21 That is different from the findings table --

22 SC&A's -- basically, it's Wanda's summary 

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1 table. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: The summary table 

3 is not -- don't call it the SC&A summary, 

4 because we'll get confused. It's just 

5 basically --

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, the summary --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: -- the sum of 

8 Wanda's summary table, for lack of a better --

9 CHAIR MUNN: Wanda's? 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I guess it would be 

11 more --

12 CHAIR MUNN: That will be fine. 

13 MR. KATZ: Electrons. 

14 DR. ULSH: Wanda's summary table? 

15 Have I missed any other issues? 

16 CHAIR MUNN: I don't believe so. 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: The database, itself 

18 needs to be cleaned up. 

19 DR. ULSH: Yes, okay. 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: So, there are --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: There are test 

22 findings. 

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: There are test 

2 findings. There are duplicate documents. For 

3 example, OCAS-TIB-0006 is in there, as well as 

4 OCAS-TIB-006. 

5 DR. MAURO: And they're the same 

6 thing. 

7 MR. MARSCHKE: And they're 

8 basically the same document. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: The same thing we had 

10 with 13, right? 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: And there is a DCAS12 TIB-13 and the OCAS-TIB-13. 

13 So, basically, there is duplicate 

14 documents. There is test case findings that 

15 need to be cleaned out of the database. 

16 DR. ULSH: Okay, I've got that. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: That sounds like it, 

18 at least covers the most pressing items, and I 

19 would request, if there is any possibility at 

20 all, that we can prioritize those, I would 

21 request that we move our ability to get a PDF 

22 or hard copy, up to the high point in the 

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1 list, if you possibly can, because that 

2 affects our ability to transfer these things 

3 in a trackable way, to the Work Groups. 

4 You know, the Work Groups all know 

5 that they have this, and they know what it is, 

6 but I can -- there is no easy way for me to 

7 transmit that to them, in any electronic or 

8 hard copy form. 

9 DR. ULSH: I've got that at the 

10 highest priority. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Excellent, thank you. 

12 DR. ULSH: Okay. Now, that leaves 

13 us with one question, that we -- me, with one 

14 question. 

15 At one point during the discussion, 

16 we had talked about expanding this to TBD-6000 

17 Working Group, and then we talked about maybe 

18 not doing that. 

19 It's not clear to me, what the 

20 status of that is. Do we want to do that or 

21 wait? 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: You and I can talk 

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1 to Tom and Jim. 

2 DR. ULSH: All right. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: At this juncture, I 

4 think we are fortunate that the Chair of that 

5 Work Group knows, how to pull these items out, 

6 and may even figure out a way to insert that 

7 into what we now have as -- as a slot for that 

8 -- that Work Group. 

9 But doesn't have anything in it. It 

10 may be our test case, or how we do transfer 

11 those things, imported. So, we'll see if that 

12 works. 

13 All right, are we happy with what 

14 we have to do, now, and we're going to make a 

15 few phone calls, next week, and get started on 

16 some interactive --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Steve, do you know 

18 what your schedule is like, the next week or 

19 two? 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm in the office 

21 every day, except for this Wednesday. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Good. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So, Brant can 

2 contact you, and I guess, that is still 

3 involved with this. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Good, okay, all right, 

5 let's go on then, to the next item on the 

6 agenda, OTIB-70 issue, that is the one percent 

7 residual period finding that we talked about 

8 so much, and that we covered so thoroughly, I 

9 think, in full Board at the Norton meeting. 

10 We discussed that a lot. My 

11 understanding, NIOSH has agreed to do that in 

12 the document. The question really is, where 

13 are we with the changes in the document? Is 

14 that underway? 

15 DR. ULSH: It is underway. They're 

16 not finished yet. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

18 DR. ULSH: But you accurately 

19 summarized it. We agreed to the change, that 

20 SC&A advocated for, and it's in process. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: Excellent. Then we 

22 don't have anything to worry about with that. 

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1 The PER's being added to the 

2 database, has any discussion taken place, with 

3 regard to how we're going to do that, when 

4 we're going to do that, who is the lead and is 

5 it underway? 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: They've been --

7 DR. MAURO: Go ahead. 

8 MR. MARSCHKE: The five PER's that 

9 we've talked about recently, within the last 

10 year or so, at this Subcommittee, have the --

11 the timings have been added to the database. 

12 They are in the database, now. 

13 The PER's in question are PER-8, 

14 PER-9, PER-12, PER-18 and PER-20, and after I 

15 got Wanda's agenda here, I made sure that 

16 those comments have been added. 

17 If you go down, for example, PER-8, 

18 basically, it identifies that no specific 

19 issue. SC&A identified no specific issues in 

22nd 20 that, and it was discussed in March 

21 meeting. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Hold on, just a 

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1 moment. Let me try to get it on my screen, 

2 here, even though --

3 DR. MAURO: So, this feature is 

4 working nicely? You go in, you find all the 

5 comments for every review we've done? 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: This part of the --

7 DR. MAURO: I mean, it's always 

8 nice to say there is some nice things, right? 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, this one works 

10 fine. This one -- we're good. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, started on 

12 PER's. 

13 MR. MARSCHKE: One of the -- Hans 

14 Behling is not in the database, or Hans 

15 Behling is not one of the people who can --

16 so, all these PER reviews are being credited 

17 to Kathy Behling. 

18 DR. MAURO: That's fine. 

19 MR. KATZ: That makes sense, 

20 because Hans doesn't do this. 

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Sure, so, yes, Hans 

22 is not on the computer. So, that is why he is 

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1 not in the database. 

2 So, he is not one of the people 

3 that we can pick from. So, Kathy Behling, 

4 you'll see, is basically the --

5 CHAIR MUNN: So, when I sorted 

6 here, on PER's, I got the three that we had 

7 done earlier, and not the ones that you just 

8 told me about. 

9 So, obviously, I'm not sorting this 

10 properly. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: What did you do to 

12 sort? 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Let me --

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Go back to the main 

15 page, Wanda. Are you on the --

16 CHAIR MUNN: No, Board review, 

17 right? 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Go down to where it 

19 says "documents under Board review." 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Now, if we sort for 

21 PER's? 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: PER's is there. 

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1 It's on a standard window, so, that it pulls 

2 the most recent. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: All right. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: It's on there. Now, 

5 if you go down to PER-8, is the one I've got 

6 up on the screen. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, three, four, 

8 five, six, okay. So, we've got eight, six, 

9 nine, 12, 18. I don't see 12 on there. 

10 Eighteen is there, and 20. Did you say 12, or 

11 did you say --

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it's on there. 

14 They're not exactly in numerical order. 

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Twelve is strange, 

16 because it has four numerics. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: It's PER-0012. 

19 Everybody else has three digits. This one has 

20 four digits, for some reason, but it's there. 

21 


22 CHAIR MUNN: That is one of our 

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1 other things that we talked about, when we 

2 were talking about 13. 

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: We were talking about 

5 whether we were all going to have two zeros or 

6 whether this was going to have three 

7 designators, not two zeros. 

8 I thought we had come to the 

9 conclusion that we were going to have three 

10 numbers, two of which might be zero, but we 

11 wouldn't have 00, we wouldn't have four 

12 numbers, or more. 

13 DR. MAURO: I think we've got to 

14 call it what it is. 

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Whatever -- I think 

16 whatever the document is identified as, should 

17 be in the database. I mean --

18 MR. KATZ: Right. 

19 MR. MARSCHKE: NIOSH has their 

20 document identification scheme, and so, you 

21 know, whatever the standard identifier is, for 

22 a particular document, that is what we should 

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1 use. 

2 DR. MAURO: Otherwise things will 

3 get lost. Yes, we have to go, just tracking. 

4 You know, you define it the way you define 

5 it, that's what we use. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I certainly 

7 don't want to lose anything, but I will have 

8 to revisit, I guess, our discussion about 0013 

9 and 013, and whether those are actually three 

10 different documents that we had, or whether --

11 okay. 

12 DR. MAURO: Absolutely, whether 

13 that is just an error in loading the data, 

14 because we thought it was two different ones, 

15 when in fact, it really is the same. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: That was one that --

17 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes, and I don't --

18 I just assumed that was an error in data, you 

19 know, loading that was --

20 CHAIR MUNN: Well, it was the --

21 DR. MAURO: -- treated as separate. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: That was one of the 

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1 things we were supposed to be checking on, for 

2 this time. 

3 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, all right. 

5 Okay, all right, so, those are loaded? 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: They're loaded. I 

7 want to go over with the Subcommittee, and 

8 make sure the Subcommittee agrees with the way 

9 I've done the statusing. 

10 Basically, for PER-8, there really 

11 -- SC&A didn't come up with any findings, and 

12 so, I put this one in, saying that -- saying 

13 as much, and I identified it as closed. 

14 Now, it was my understanding that 

15 there is work remaining on the PER evaluation. 

16 We have to do the case evaluations. But I 

17 don't think we keep this open, for that. 

18 DR. MAURO: Right. 

19 MR. MARSCHKE: So, this one is --

20 this one is then being shown as closed. PER-9 

21 --

22 DR. MAURO: Before you leave that, 

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1 there was one comment that -- regarding this 

2 one, that Paul had mentioned, perhaps I wasn't 

3 sure what -- regarding transfer over to the 

4 Science Committee, because there was something 

5 very important that came out of here, and had 

6 to do with the IREP model, which doesn't --

7 where --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: I think the IREP 

9 model comes up in another one. 

10 DR. MAURO: Oh, this wasn't the one 

11 with the IREP issue? 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: This one isn't that 

13 one with the IREP issue. Well, it does talk 

14 about IREP. It does mention IREP, there. I 

15 have to go back and look at that. 

16 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: But I know one of 

18 the -- I think it was nine, I know one of 

19 these was -- this one here, was transferred --

20 no, that is not the --

21 DR. MAURO: There are a couple of 

22 them. Actually, I think a couple of them were 

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1 -- which go toward, leave this domain -- leave 

2 our world and --

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, the other 

4 question is --

5 DR. MAURO: The ICD code number for 

6 the lymphoma, that was an issue that was not 

7 to be -- I don't think it was our -- within 

8 our purview, but we raised it and closed it. 

9 It goes someplace else. It has to do with, I 

10 guess, the Department of Labor and their 

11 designation. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, right. 

13 DR. MAURO: And then there was 

14 another one, which is another PER, that had to 

15 do with how -- the Probability of Causation 

16 was calculated, and you know, the fact that 

17 maybe there were -- I remember this very well. 

18 I don't remember the numbers. 

19 Another issue that goes more towards the 

20 Science Group, where whether or not -- some 

21 questions were raised, why are the outcomes of 

22 the PoC's seem to be unusual, and I don't want 

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1 to go into details, which was something that 

2 was more toward questions regarding IREP, both 

3 of which were felt -- the latter, I believe, 

4 Paul, you actually mentioned something that 

5 might be of interest to the Science Group, and 

6 I don't know if you recall. 

7 We were coming up with PoC's that 

8 seemed to be too high --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: John, wasn't it 

10 that -- it was an identical -- essentially, 

11 the identical case, except --

12 DR. MAURO: The age. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: -- one person 

14 started exposure --

15 DR. MAURO: And that's it. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: -- at 20, and one 

17 started exposure at 40. 

18 DR. MAURO: Forty, yes. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And exposure time 

20 was the right -- exact same time, so, one was 

21 20 years older when diagnosed --

22 DR. MAURO: Exactly. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: -- than the other, 

2 and the testing came out the same. 

3 DR. MAURO: Right, it was a lung 

4 cancer, and we --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the question 

6 was --

7 DR. MAURO: We raised the question 

8 --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: The question of 

10 whether it should or not, was what should be 

11 going to the --

12 CHAIR MUNN: That was the question. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: -- Science Group 

14 and --

15 DR. MAURO: That was it, yes. I 

16 only -- I'm not trying to address that issue, 

17 now. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: This is what we say 

19 in here. You're right, John, it was on eight, 

20 and this is -- and we did mention, again, back 

21 in March of this year, we had a meeting, and 

22 we did mention, actually Stu mentioned the 

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1 same thing, as being actively considered by 

2 the Science Subcommittee. 

3 DR. MAURO: Right. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: And do we have any 

5 issues that remained open on this overarching 

6 issue, and we said, "No," basically, then for 

7 the purpose of our Subcommittee, it's closed. 

8 Ted agrees. 

9 DR. MAURO: Closed. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda says it's 

11 closed. Therefore, I made it closed. 

12 We didn't identify it as 

13 transferred. The transcript identifies it as 

14 being closed. So, what -- but we do, in this 

15 history here, we do identify that -- it as 

16 being actively considered by the Science 

17 Subcommittee. 

18 I don't identify what as being --

19 what this technical issue is, but you can go 

20 back to the transcript. The transcript goes 

21 on for like 50 pages, covering the discussion 

22 that went on, here. 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, right. 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: And I've identified 

3 the pages in the transcript, so that you can, 

4 if you want to, find out what was exactly 

5 transferred, you can go there. 

6 DR. MAURO: This is a very valuable 

7 --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: So, the question is, 

9 is it --

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is very 

11 valuable. 

12 MR. KATZ: So, the transcript date 

13 is what? 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: This is for the 

15 March 22, 2011 Procedure Subcommittee meeting. 

16 MR. KATZ: Okay, because we have a 

17 Science Work Group coming up, and I want to 

18 send them this transcript. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that has to go to 

20 them. 

21 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: And this is one of 

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1 those where --

2 MR. KATZ: So, that's my action 

3 item. I am going to send that to the Science 

4 Work Group. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

6 MR. KATZ: That transcript. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Thanks, Ted. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: A question, though, 

9 that is -- I mean, I'm wondering, Wanda, the 

10 intent of this, closed for us, and -- and in 

11 essence, saying that -- it's an overarching 

12 issue, looks an awful lot like a transcript. 

13 DR. MAURO: It sure does. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: I know we used the 

15 word 'closed', but --

16 MR. KATZ: I think that is closed -

17 -

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's closed for us, 

19 but --

20 MR. KATZ: I think it's fine. 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: But transfer items 

22 are also, in a sense, closed for us. 

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1 MR. KATZ: 

2 but not -- and I --

3 CHAIR MUNN: 

4 MR. KATZ: 

Closed for us, right, 

Now, this would be --

My predilection would be 

5 just to close them for us, these transfer 

6 things, too, but this is fine for this one. 

7 This will be taken care of. 

8 I'm going to send the Science Work 

9 Group the transcript. They'll pick it up and 

10 we don't have to worry about it here, anymore. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: We have taken that 

12 same stance, Paul, when we have said, "This is 

13 something that Jim is looking at. He is 

14 taking care of the overarching issues." 

15 We will not continue to work on it 

16 here, because it's full scope for the entire 

17 complex. 

18 DR. MAURO: So, the rationale would 

19 be, it's been transferred. We know it's 

20 transferred. It's been done. So, as far as 

21 we're concerned, it's been closed. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

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1 DR. MAURO: I guess when something 

2 is transferred and we don't -- we're not -- we 

3 haven't really transferred it, yet. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Well, when something 

5 is transferred, there is work that the other -

6 - that someone else is going to do, that needs 

7 to come back to us. 

8 DR. MAURO: Right, right. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: When we're talking 

10 about overarching issues, those are going to 

11 be resolved --

12 DR. MAURO: We need to come back. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: -- at level that's not 

14 in this --

15 DR. MAURO: Got it. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: -- in this purview. 

17 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: And in fact, as I 

19 look at it, I'm not even sure it was a 

20 finding. 

21 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: It said no specific 

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1 issue was identified, but SC&A raised a 

2 concern --

3 DR. MAURO: Very good point. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- about the 

5 validity of the IREP. Now, that can't be a 

6 finding --

7 DR. MAURO: Here. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- against here, 

9 yes. 

10 DR. MAURO: Here, right. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Down here. 

12 DR. MAURO: Good. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, in the absence 

14 of a true finding --

15 DR. MAURO: I agree. This is the 

16 sensible way to do it. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: Right, right. All 

19 right, so, Ted has the action item, to get 

20 that to Dr. Richardson, that's great. 

21 Anything else on the PER database? Thank you 

22 very much, for getting that --

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Do we want to go 

2 through the other four, or do we --

3 CHAIR MUNN: I think it would be 

4 nice to do that, especially in view of the 

5 fact that I still have not been successful in 

6 getting the screen that you're getting. 

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: I have the PER's here, 

9 but I --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Hit the 'plus' sign 

11 on the left, I think, of the name --

12 CHAIR MUNN: And then something 

13 magic happens. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- the name PER. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: All right, I've hit 

16 everything else, Subcommittee on Procedure 

17 Reviews. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, not that. 

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Try clicking on the 

20 title. 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Click on the title, 

22 itself. 

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, that is what 

2 does it. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Well, oh, I see, I get 

4 this confused screen. 

5 That's okay, I have something 

6 strange going on here, but I can read it. So, 

7 go ahead, Steve. 

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, this is PER-9, 

9 that had two findings. This is the one which 

10 basically, let the ICD-9 codes and the finding 

11 one was about the ICD-9 code, and I'm not 

12 really qualified to speak on this. 

13 But I sat in on the discussions and 

14 the -- my understanding is that this has been 

15 really not in -- this was a Department of 

16 Labor concern. 

17 One of the things that we did bring 

18 up in here was that -- I believe that we 

19 brought up, is that the -- how to advise the 

20 Department of Labor that -- of our concern, 

21 with this ICD code, ICD-9 code. 

22 Again, I did the same thing on this 

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1 one, as I did on the PER-8. I went back to the 

2 transcript. This was the -- this was 

3 discussed, both in July 2006 -- or July 26, 

4 2010, and January 5th of this year, and 

5 probably at other Subcommittee meetings, as 

6 well. 

7 These are the two that I went 

8 through and pulled the excerpts from, and this 

9 is the one I was talking about, the -- we will 

10 -- we would simply, in a Board meeting, ask 

11 the Department of Labor whether the -- advise 

12 the Department of Labor that we discussed it 

13 at length and we're concerned about the 

14 changes in progress that had occurred in 

15 diagnostic -- diagnosis over the last decade, 

16 whether that is on their plate, as well. 

17 I don't know, that seems to be --

18 that is an action item for Subcommittee, and I 

19 just wanted to capture that, in here. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: That is good, because 

21 my -- I do not recall having had that 

22 interaction with Labor, and --

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1 MR. KATZ: Well, you haven't. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: This is a comment I 

3 made at the time, and I'll make it now, is 

4 that the whole debate is whether or not -- not 

5 whether it -- people were able to distinguish 

6 non-Hodgkin's from Hodgkin's lymphoma, but 

7 whether they bothered, until roughly recently. 

8 I mean, the ability was there, but 

9 why bother, and so, the steps were not taken 

10 and so, the record does not contain the 

11 ability to do that. Isn't that the finding 

12 we're talking about? 

13 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, the --

15 Congress has already answered the question, 

16 about whether you're going to distinguish 

17 between Hodgkin's and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma 

18 in this program, based on the records provided 

19 to you, and they said, you are, and they 

20 decided that by making Hodgkin's lymphoma a 

21 non-SEC cancer and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma an 

22 SEC cancer. 

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1 So, the law itself separates it and 

2 decides -- and has essentially decided for the 

3 country, that we are going to decide to use 

4 the records we can use, and do it. 

5 DR. MAURO: Right. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it's a 

7 fool's errand to even suggest to DOL that they 

8 do anything about it. I think you will get 

9 the same answer from them. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: I suspect that it is. 

11 The question is, is it a waste of Board time? 

12 Have we --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: We've got a short 

14 meeting in Tampa. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: Well, okay. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Hey, we've all got 

17 to get that down, the meeting ends on Friday. 

18 We've got to end on time, and catch our 

19 planes. 

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: They can only use 

21 what records are provided to them. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: They can only use 

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1 the -- what is generated and what is 

2 available. 

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, or even if 

4 they want to distinguish, they can't always do 

5 that. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: No, and the only thing 

7 we can do is just tell them that we talked 

8 about it, and really, that is all we can do. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: We talked about it, 

11 because they have their marching orders. They 

12 know what process they have to follow, and we 

13 know what internally we're going to do here. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: But even though 

15 progress is made in diagnosis, all of these 

16 old cases are unaffected by that. 

17 DR. MAURO: Right. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, even if 

19 they're aware that -- changes in process that 

20 have occurred in diagnosis over the last 

21 decade, that is fine, for people who will die 

22 in the future. 

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1 I'm not sure what we gather by 

2 this, in going -- in mentioning it to Labor, 

3 but I don't --

4 CHAIR MUNN: I'm perfectly happy to 

5 add this current discussion comment, after 

6 that, and saying at this time, in view of --

7 MR. KATZ: I don't think you have 

8 to --

9 CHAIR MUNN: -- what has occurred 

10 since this discussion, at this meeting, it was 

11 determined that would serve no purpose to 

12 discuss this with Labor. 

13 DR. MAURO: Can I ask a question, 

14 though? I put myself in Jeff's position, who 

15 has an obligation to be responsive to the 

16 claimants on matters. 

17 Now, and to put it simply, if it 

18 turns out that judgments made regarding the 

19 diagnosis of a particular cancer, at the time 

20 that the person was diagnosed could very well 

21 have been faulty, okay, for whatever reason. 

22 Now, we find ourselves in a 

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1 situation, there is person that was diagnosed 

2 back in such-and-such a date, but as a result, 

3 this is how the dose reconstruction proceeded. 

4 In retrospect, we look at it, 

5 "Well, gee, there is a really good possibility 

6 that that diagnosis might have had some flaws 

7 to it," which at the time, weren't important, 

8 but are important to this program. 

9 The way I look at it is, if I were 

10 Jeff, I would want to know about that, and 

11 then decide for myself, or Labor decide for 

12 themselves, what they want to do about it, 

13 rather than us make the judgment that we don't 

14 think it's going to be important to them. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: No, that is not the 

16 judgment that I intended to convey. 

17 What I intended to convey is, we do 

18 know that Labor has been as involved with the 

19 -- with the ICRP issues, and with what has 

20 transpired with the events. Labor is fully 

21 aware of all of that. 

22 I do not see that our saying, "We 

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1 talked about it and we paid attention to what 

2 was going on. Have you been paying attention 

3 to what goes on," that that really would be 

4 all we can say, and -- when we already know, 

5 they paid attention to what is going on. 

6 They're aware of what has 

7 transpired with this lymphoma issue, because 

8 at that time, we didn't have the final 

9 acceptance of non-Hodgkin's as being on our 

10 list. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I just think, John, 

12 that regardless, I don't think -- you know, 

13 maybe I'm being naive, I don't think any part 

14 of the Administration is going to decide that 

15 some -- you know, you're really kind of 

16 altering the structure of the law. 

17 The law itself divides Hodgkin's 

18 and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. Everybody knows 

19 what the status of the records is, or you 

20 would assume that Congress would know at the 

21 time that they passed that law, which Congress 

22 does, and I don't think an Administrative 

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1 Department is going to, you know, essentially 

2 act as if Congress did not know the 

3 ramifications of their decision, and do such4 and-such. 

5 Because we've done other things, 

6 based on the exact wording of the language, 

7 that maybe are not -- they're far less 

8 intuitively correct than this one. 

9 So, based on the exact knowledge of 

10 the -- of the exact wording of the statute, 

11 so, I just really don't see it. If you would 

12 like, we can go out -- we'll drop Jeff Kotsch 

13 a note and say, "Hey, you know, shop this 

14 around your site." But you know, make sure 

15 you guys have thought about it. It would make 

16 our Advisory Board feel better. 

17 MR. KATZ: I think send Jeff a 

18 note, give him the pages of the transcript and 

19 say, "You may want to read this discussion 

20 about non-Hodgkin's, Hodgkin's. This may be 

21 enlightening to you," or it may not. He may 

22 already know it. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: He may know all of 

2 this, and you're asking -- yes. 

3 MR. KATZ: Right, but I understand 

4 what you're saying, Stu. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, right. 

6 MR. KATZ: Because you can't just 

7 sort of do something claimant-favorable or 

8 whatever that ignores the statute. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, yes. 

10 MR. KATZ: When the statue comes 

11 down in black and white --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: We want them to do 

13 the things --

14 MR. KATZ: We can't do that. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: We would want them 

16 to do things claimant-favorable, that ignore 

17 the statute, and we were told, "Well, you 

18 better not." 

19 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Because once you 

21 start ignoring the statute, where do you stop? 

22 MR. KATZ: No, you're breaking the 

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1 law. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Well, we have, indeed, 

4 discussed this in open Board meeting, and I'm 

5 sure Labor has our transcripts from our open 

6 Board, and are present at our open Board. 

7 So, in any case, it does not appear 

8 to me, to be a Work -- a Subcommittee issue, I 

9 agree. 

10 DR. MAURO: Right, for us. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: So, my action item, 

12 one, will be to add a note to this area here, 

13 that states that we -- at this meeting, we 

14 decided not to move -- take any further action 

15 on this item? 

16 CHAIR MUNN: That it was not a 

17 Subcommittee --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: That it's not 

19 necessary? 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Not a Subcommittee 

21 responsibility. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Not a 

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1 responsibility, okay. 

2 MR. KATZ: And you can make a note 

3 that we'll send -- we're going to send a note 

4 -- the Agency will send a note to DOL, just 

5 referring them to the transcript, so, they are 

6 aware of what the Subcommittee has discussed 

7 on this topic. 

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, I'll do that. 

9 MR. KATZ: Sure. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, okay, I'll do 

11 that. The second one -- issue on PER-9, was 

12 to do with smoking, and again, that one, I 

13 think, was -- we decided it was -- is an 

14 overarching scientific issue that is beyond 

15 what ICRP is capable of dealing with today, 

16 and that the -- basically, since it's beyond 

17 the state-of-the-art, there is nothing we can 

18 do. So, this issue also was closed. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I believe that is 

20 so, and we --

21 DR. MAURO: That had to do with the 

22 thoracic lymphoma issue, that's on how the 

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105 
 

1 smoking might complicate the problem, then, 

2 and who knows what it has to deal with, yes, 

3 yes. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, the issue was 

5 up here, had to do with the lymph nodes and 

6 the upper respiratory tract. 

7 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think that does 

9 take care of that. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: PER-12, I think this 

11 was basically one where we agreed, concluded 

12 that the selection and screening criteria 

13 discussed in PER-12 are scientifically sound. 

14 So, really, there was no issue 

15 here, and so, the only thing that remains is 

16 to select the claimants for --

17 DR. MAURO: Cases. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: -- cases, for dose 

19 reconstruction. So, that one was, again, 

20 closed. 

21 PER-18, there were five issues, and 

22 they all were transferred, and I'll just open 

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106 
 

1 one of them, because they're all the -- they 

2 all have the same. 

3 They were discussed again in March, 

4 and it was decided that these should be 

5 transferred to the Los Alamos Working Group, 

6 and so, they've all been given the status of 

7 being transferred. 

8 Now, whether or not that has 

9 actually occurred, I have no -- I don't know, 

10 but that is a -- that is what we agreed on --

11 CHAIR MUNN: That has not formally 

12 occurred. The Los Alamos Work Group Chair, 

13 Mark, knows about it, but it's only been 

14 conversational. I do not have a hard copy or 

15 PDF to hand to him. 

16 But he -- I have advised him, 

17 personally. I will take this as an action 

18 item, to get that --

19 MR. KATZ: Yes, it would be good to 

20 do it in some hard copy, but --

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I will --

22 MR. KATZ: -- when you take email -

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107 
 

1 -

2 CHAIR MUNN: I always do that and -

3 -

4 MR. KATZ: LANL Work Group has work 

5 to do, had a -- not this Board meeting, but 

6 the next Board meeting, which will be --

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Part of the May --

8 MR. KATZ: The May one, right, so, 

9 this should be on their agenda. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, I will have that 

11 action item, too. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: The last one we 

13 talked about was PER-20. PER-20 had three 

14 findings against it. 

15 The first two had the same 

16 resolution. One has -- the first one has to 

17 do with stability class for uranium, what was 

18 assumed in the calculations. 

19 It was decided at the March 22nd 

20 Subcommittee meeting, that the Blockson Work 

21 Group should be reconstituted, and to address 

22 these two issues, the first two issues. 

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108 
 

1 The third issue had to do with 

2 radon, which the consensus was that the --

3 that was no longer an issue. That had been 

4 resolved. 

5 DR. ULSH: Were you saying that the 

6 Blockson Work Group could be reconstituted to 

7 deal with two issues, but one of those issues 

8 has now been --

9 MR. MARSCHKE: No, it's the --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: He said the third -

11 -

12 MR. MARSCHKE: The third issue had 

13 been --

14 DR. MAURO: So, the first two 

15 issues had to do with like Site Profile 

16 related? 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. 

18 DR. MAURO: How are you going to do 

19 the dose calculations? 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. 

21 DR. MAURO: For the non-presumptive 

22 cancers? 

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109 
 

1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. 

3 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: And your Chair has 

5 been very reluctant to reconstitute that 

6 group, but we'll see that it is done in the 

7 foreseeable future. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: You mean Dr. 

9 Melius? Which Chair? 

10 DR. MAURO: Blockson. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Blockson. 

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, but --

13 CHAIR MUNN: I have not talked to -

14 -

15 MR. KATZ: The Work Group Chair. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: The Work Group Chair 

17 is sitting here, and has not done anything 

18 about having Dr. Melius reconstitute it. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, I'm -- what I 

20 was asking, the action to reconstitute must be 

21 Dr. Melius? 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is. 

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1 DR. MAURO: This could be 

2 important, because the --

3 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

4 DR. MAURO: It had to do with the 

5 way the uranium internal dose is calculated, 

6 and the assumptions made, which is something 

7 that we all agree can be done, and it's part 

8 of the partial dose reconstruction, and we had 

9 some questions, which I believe you folks feel 

10 pretty strongly about, related to this matter, 

11 that are open. 

12 They're open here, and they do have 

13 a play on reconstructing doses to workers, 

14 where you are going to do a partial dose 

15 reconstruction. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, this is only 

17 going to matter for somebody who has lung 

18 cancer, who wasn't -- who was there for less 

19 than a year. 

20 DR. MAURO: Less than a year? 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: If they're there 

22 for a year, they're in the SEC. 

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111 

1 CHAIR MUNN: They're in the SEC. 

2 DR. MAURO: Well, it's Type M. The 

3 issue was Type M, versus --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I know, but --

5 and so, all of the lung cancers are paid, 

6 through the SEC --

7 DR. MAURO: Right, right. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: -- by --

9 DR. MAURO: That's it. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: So, that's it. 

11 DR. MAURO: That's a done deal, and 

12 the other cancers that might be non13 presumptive, are they affected in any way, by 

14 --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, no, because 

16 the assumption is now -- the finding number 

17 two is saying that one of .02 might not be 

18 appropriate. 

19 Well, that will be more favorable 

20 for any of the non --

21 DR. MAURO: I got you. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: -- because they're 

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112 
 

1 all systemic. 

2 DR. MAURO: So, this becomes --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: And so, that will 

4 be actually -- .02 is more favorable than the 

5 alternative. 

6 DR. MAURO: Right, I understand. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Or for non8 systemic, so, this will only matter for lung 

9 cancers that were there for less than a year. 

10 DR. MAURO: I agree. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: And we can probably 

12 find out in a day --

13 DR. MAURO: I agree with you. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: -- if there are 

15 any. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: And maybe whether 

17 there is a such a claim. 

18 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, I think 

20 this affects nobody. 

21 DR. MAURO: I agree, I see what 

22 you're saying, that's right. 

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113 
 

1 CHAIR MUNN: The actual, yes. 

2 DR. MAURO: Well, how do we put 

3 that to bed, then? Is there a mechanism that 

4 we could do? 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: We can find out of 

6 there are any lung cancers that have less than 

7 --

8 DR. MAURO: And if there are not --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: -- less than a year 

10 --

11 DR. MAURO: -- then we end it. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Any lung cancers 

13 that didn't get paid through the SEC will --

14 MR. KATZ: Okay, well, why don't we 

15 find that out, before we bother Dr. Melius 

16 with --

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, absolutely. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: We can find it out, 

19 this week. 

20 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, that is 

22 simple. 

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114 
 

1 MR. KATZ: So, if you'll let me 

2 know, you'll let me know, I will communicate 

3 with Dr. Melius, if we need to, but not if --

4 not if this is a moot issue. 

5 DR. MAURO: Right. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, question on 

7 that, though, suppose there are none, but next 

8 year, there is a claim that comes in? Do you 

9 have to reconstitute a Subcommittee at that 

10 point, to deal with this, or --

11 CHAIR MUNN: It was only a Work 

12 Group. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, a Work 

14 Group? Do you know -- it seems like there 

15 ought to be a simpler way to handle this. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Paul, this is a 

17 dose model claim. We could probably even 

18 determine of it's going to matter for somebody 

19 who is there for less than a year. 

20 You know, we could do, well, what 

21 if they were exposed to dose model Class Y or 

22 --

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115 

1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Check the other 

2 side of your --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: -- at one year, 

4 right. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: If it makes no 

6 difference --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And if they're not 

8 going to be compensated for one year at Class 

9 Y, then I guess, it makes no difference to 

10 anybody. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Do you want to 

13 change the status of this -- these two, from 

14 transferred to in progress, while NIOSH goes 

15 and evaluates --

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Or in a --

17 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: That would be --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: -- evaluates whether 

20 or not there, you know -- what the effects 

21 would be? 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, please. 

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116 
 

1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Or are they in 

2 abeyance? 

3 CHAIR MUNN: That would be a very 

4 intelligent thing to do. The jovial 

5 suggestion to reconstitute the Blockson Work 

6 Group was made very late in one of our 

7 meetings, as I recall, and --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: After our self9 control --

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, our self-control, 

11 right. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: After your self13 control. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: If all else fails, 

15 send it to a Work Group. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, so, it appears to 

17 be in order for us to pursue this more 

18 circumspectly, before we proceed and attempt 

19 to reconstitute the Work Group. 

20 MR. KATZ: Less joviality. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

22 MR. KATZ: Right, okay. 

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117 
 

1 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you. 

2 DR. MAURO: This is a new category 

3 issue that -- it's interesting. 

4 We disagree on some of the science, 

5 as it applies to this particular site, but it 

6 doesn't matter -- there is good reason to 

7 believe that it's irrelevant, and for that 

8 reason alone --

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: We don't spend a 

10 lot of time on it. 

11 DR. MAURO: We don't need to spend 

12 a lot of time on it, and the Work Group, or 

13 the Subcommittee, has the authority to close 

14 it, because it's gotten the information it 

15 needs to say it's irrelevant, and the only --

16 you know, waiting for us, for NIOSH to come 

17 back and say, "It's irrelevant." 

18 CHAIR MUNN: We have checked, and 

19 it is indeed, irrelevant, yes, just that 

20 verification would seem to be the only true 

21 circumstance that we need to verify. 

22 That being said, that is all the 

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118 
 

1 PERs you mentioned, Steve, correct? 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Is this -- the 

3 wording agreeable, Stu, or --

4 CHAIR MUNN: We must get back to 

5 this issue on the reconstructions, and report 

6 back to the Subcommittee. Why don't you say, 

7 report back to the Subcommittee, whether there 

8 is any relevance? 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I can't spell 

10 relevance. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: R-E-L-E-V-A-N-C-E. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Thank you. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, or you can do 

14 revelance, if you would like. 

15 MR. KATZ: I think that one is a 

16 mistake that's easy to make. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is. 

18 MR. KATZ: When you're typing fast. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

20 MR. KATZ: Does anyone want a 

21 break? You're been at this for an hour and a 

22 half. 

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1 DR. ULSH: Well, the OTIB-2, we've 

2 got Liz Brackett on, right now. 

3 MR. KATZ: Oh, okay. 

4 DR. ULSH: Until 11 o'clock, only. 

5 MS. BRACKETT: Actually, no, for 

6 only 10 more minutes. My appointment is at 11 

7 o'clock. I have to leave in 10 minutes. 

8 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Then we better get to 

10 OTIB-2, very quickly. 

11 Liz, it sounds to me as though you 

12 may have the bucket to carry. 

13 DR. ULSH: Well, actually, the deal 

14 on these items, were that NIOSH and ORAU were 

15 going to check to see that all of the findings 

16 that were for OTIB-2, had been addressed in 

17 replacement procedures. 

18 Liz did that and we found that they 

19 had been, and I believe that SC&A agreed with 

20 that assessment. So, this could be pretty 

21 quick. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: And I want to thank 

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1 all of you who were involved in getting all of 

2 the information about OTIB-2 out in such a 

3 timely manner, so that we had an opportunity 

4 to look at it, before we came here today, 

5 including Dr. Lipsztein's notes. That was 

6 most helpful. Thank you. 

7 So, do -- so, how do you want to 

8 proceed then, Brant? 

9 DR. ULSH: Do you want us to walk 

10 through them, or --

11 CHAIR MUNN: It might be a good 

12 idea to go through them very briefly, without 

13 -- since we already have the information in 

14 our hands. 

15 DR. ULSH: Okay. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: I assume that everyone 

17 here has taken a look at these documents that 

18 were provided for you last week. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Are these the ones 

20 from Joyce? 

21 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, from Joyce. 

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1 DR. ULSH: All right, Liz, do you 

2 want to walk through those findings? 

3 MS. BRACKETT: Okay. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: What are the dates 

5 on the Joyce? I had them, but I want to put 

6 them up. 

7 MS. BRACKETT: I have them in two 

8 separate documents. I don't know how you 

9 wanted -- I've got an open items list and an 

10 in abeyance list. Can I just go through the 

11 lists that way? 

12 DR. ULSH: Sure. 

13 MS. BRACKETT: A lot of them were 

14 more related to writing style or things that 

15 were included in OTIB-2. 

16 So, I don't have specific 

17 responses. I just noted that that wouldn't 

18 necessarily carry over to another document, 

19 and that other documents would need to be 

20 looked at separately. 

21 For example, on the open items 

22 list, the first one is 12, and that was 

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122 
 

1 writing style. It also mentions surrogate 

2 nuclides. Those aren't used anymore. 

3 OTIB-2 was a very early document 

4 and not everything we needed was in IMBA, and 

5 so, we used surrogates, but since that time, 

6 IMBA has been updated and we no longer use 

7 surrogates for anything. 

8 Finding 13, again, it was more of 

9 the writing style, and so, the procedure was 

10 not complete, in terms of required data. So, 

11 that should be -- that goes away with the 

12 revocation of that OTIB. 

13 Fifteen, it says -- let's see, 

14 SC&A's review has identified that the 

15 procedure is not sufficiently prescriptive to 

16 minimize the need for subjective decisions to 

17 apply it to -- OTIB-18, which is more or less, 

18 the replacement for this, has a section 

19 devoted specifically to applicability. It 

20 tells you who it applies to, and under what 

21 circumstances and what dates. 

22 Finding 16, it again, mentions 

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123 
 

1 subjective decisions, and so, again, the 

2 response is OTIB-18 has more information for 

3 the dose reconstructor, to determine if it's 

4 applicable to a particular person. 

5 Finding 17, it mentions --

6 CHAIR MUNN: Missing data. 

7 MS. BRACKETT: -- missing data on 

8 new parameters. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Where the claimant 

10 must be monitored. 

11 MS. BRACKETT: Well, in this one, 

12 the assumptions that were made in OTIB-2 are 

13 not used anywhere else. OTIB-18 has a 

14 completely different set of assumptions. 

15 So, and OTIB-18 has been reviewed 

16 independently of this. So, I think anything 

17 there would have been addressed separately. I 

18 don't think that we had the same issues with 

19 OTIB-18. 

20 Finding 18 -- 

21 CHAIR MUNN: The last one. 

22 MS. BRACKETT: -- it talks about 

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1 fractional retentions being incorrect. These 

2 same tables that were used for look-up were 

3 not used for OTIB-18. So, this wouldn't carry 

4 over to OTIB-18. 

5 That was everything on the open 

6 items list, and if you want to talk about 

7 those, or we can go through all of the 

8 abeyance, in abeyance. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: It might be a good 

10 idea for us to take a look at how many in 

11 abeyance findings we have. There's one, two, 

12 three, four, five, six, seven, eight, we have 

13 a slug of them, don't we? 

14 MS. BRACKETT: Well, we can go over 

15 those, I just didn't know if you wanted to 

16 discuss the responses to the open items, 

17 first, before doing these, or if you want me 

18 to do something else. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: I would like, 

20 personally, to see the open items. Paul? 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: I think the open items 

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125 
 

1 --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Those are the 

3 critical ones. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: -- are -- it's much 

5 better for us to take a look at things we 

6 haven't looked at before. 

7 So, yes, please, I would prefer 

8 open items, which starts with --

9 MS. BRACKETT: Well, that is what I 

10 just -- I just went through all of the open 

11 items. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Twelve and 13, yes, 

13 you did. 

14 MS. BRACKETT: Right, that was 

15 everything under open items. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: I got them, yes. I 

17 see that now, and so, the abeyance ones are 

18 not that numerous, but yes, let's do abeyance, 

19 then. 

20 MS. BRACKETT: Okay. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: Sorry, total 

22 confusion. 

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1 MS. BRACKETT: Oh, no, that's fine, 

2 I just didn't know if you wanted to discuss 

3 the open items first, since I've closed --

4 since I went through those. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: Well, if anyone has 

6 any question or comment, with respect to what 

7 we just heard --

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, everything in 

9 OTIB-2, now is handled, in a sense, by OTIB --

10 CHAIR MUNN: Eighteen. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- 18, correct? 

12 MS. BRACKETT: Well, in the sense 

13 that they're both efficiency methods for 

14 getting claimants on quickly. 

15 

16 

17 used now --

18 

19 issues on 

MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, right. 

MS. BRACKETT: OTIB-18 would be 

MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, and the 

writing styles are immaterial. 

20 You'd have to say, okay, what is the writing 

21 style of 18, as the second question. 

22 MS. BRACKETT: Right. 

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127 
 

1 MEMBER ZIEMER: And then there are 

2 sections that deal with issues that were 

3 raised. 

4 So, I guess in a sense, you close 

5 all of this out, and focus on the 18, right? 

6 DR. MAURO: Yes, SC&A's 

7 recommendations to close all of those. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

9 DR. MAURO: And they're being dealt 

10 with appropriately in 18 --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Through 18. 

12 DR. MAURO: -- if they have not 

13 already been appropriately dealt with. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

15 DR. MAURO: Because 18 is active. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, it seems to 

17 me, that makes sense, to do that, just close 

18 them all out. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: I certainly would --

20 DR. MAURO: For the reasons --

21 CHAIR MUNN: For the reasons --

22 DR. MAURO: -- that was just 

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1 explained. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, yes. We have the 

3 NIOSH responses and the Subcommittee is 

4 willing to accept them, I believe, no 

5 objection from SC&A or anyone else. 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: So we're talking 

7 about the open -- closing the open items --

8 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: -- or all those ones 

10 --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: All those ones that 

12 Liz went through --

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- we would close 

15 them. 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: And I suppose we 

18 can put a note in that --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, let's just work 

20 all this out and then --

21 CHAIR MUNN: And include her 

22 responses. 

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129 

1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Or the responses --

2 MR. MARSCHKE: The responses have 

3 been included in -- the responses are in the 

4 database. Liz's responses are in the 

5 database. SC&A's response is not in the 

6 database, but we just have one generic 

7 response, saying we agree with everything. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: But I don't know if 

10 we need to add that, or we just add the --

11 MR. KATZ: I think you put that 

12 note in that the Subcommittee concurs, and 

13 they're closed. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: Subcommittee concurs, 

16 closed. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: On all of those, 

18 yes. 

19 DR. MAURO: And we just heard it, 

20 too, it's on the record. 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

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130 
 

1 DR. MAURO: The record is complete. 

2 MR. KATZ: Yes, I mean, just 

3 filling in the --

4 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes, right. 

5 MS. BRACKETT: Okay, so, should I 

6 go on to the in abeyance items, then? 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, please. 

8 MS. BRACKETT: Okay, finding number 

9 one, this one, again, it addresses writing 

10 style. So, again, you'd have to look at the 

11 new documents, to make sure that the writing 

12 style is okay. 

13 Finding two, this one says the 

14 document uses critical information and 

15 historical data without providing references. 

16 So, this is also specific to OTIB17 2. I don't know if it carried over to OTIB18 18, because it wasn't specific, as to what 

19 critical information and historical data were 

20 missing. 

21 DR. MAURO: Liz, this is John 

22 Mauro. Can you hear me okay? 

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131 
 

1 MS. BRACKETT: Yes. 

2 DR. MAURO: Yes, the question I 

3 have is, when this particular item was put in 

4 abeyance, I presume it was put in abeyance 

5 because we all agree that yes, maybe better 

6 references or citations would be needed to 

7 help clarify. 

8 So, we agreed, that that would 

9 help, and usually, it's left in abeyance until 

10 of course, the document is revised to include 

11 the material, which is the way in which we put 

12 things in abeyance. 

13 But now, we have a different 

14 circumstance, namely, now, we really are 

15 deleting OTIB-2, and you are replacing it with 

16 OTIB-18. 

17 So, I guess the question is, and 

18 it's not unlike the other ones we just talked 

19 about, does it become irrelevant now, because 

20 you may not even use that material, and if you 

21 do, you make appropriate reference to it. I 

22 guess that's the way -- in a way, we're -- I 

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132 
 

1 guess we're trying to say, what do we do with 

2 the -- in abeyance? 

3 Do we close those, also? 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: It seems to me, 

5 these first two are the similar to the other 

6 ones that you referred to OTIB-18, and close 

7 these out. 

8 DR. MAURO: That is where I was 

9 headed. 

10 MS. BRACKETT: Okay, finding four, 

11 again, is writing style. So, this would be 

12 closed and you'd go to OTIB-18. 

13 Finding five, it discusses the use 

14 of assumptions that were used in OTIB-2, that 

15 are not carried over to OTIB-18. It's 

16 percentages of maximum permissible body 

17 burden, and this doesn't enter it all into 

18 OTIB-18. So, that goes away. 

19 Finding six, I believe if you read 

20 the details, it is actually identical to 

21 finding five. So, again, maximum permissible 

22 body burden is not used. 

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1 Finding seven is -- it discusses 

2 solubility types. OTIB-2 gave guidance, as to 

3 what solubility type to use. OTIB-18 does not 

4 do this. It's based on whatever is the most 

5 claimant-favorable solubility type for the 

6 specific person, for the cancer that is being 

7 looked at. 

8 So, this doesn't carry over to 

9 OTIB-18. 

10 Finding eight, fractional retention 

11 values --

12 DR. ULSH: Hold on, Liz. 

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm assuming that 

14 no, the Subcommittee is not saying anything to 

15 -- in response to Liz. I'm assuming that we're 

16 agreeing and what Liz is talking, that we can 

17 close these out? 

18 CHAIR MUNN: I think we would stop 

19 you, if we didn't feel --

20 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: -- that it was 

22 correct. 

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134 
 

1 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

3 MR. MARSCHKE: I just wanted to 

4 make sure of that. 

5 DR. MAURO: Yes, and SC&A would 

6 also do the same, that is, we're -- our 

7 silence means acknowledgment. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, that is what I 

10 wanted to make sure, the silence meant 

11 concurrence and that they are closed. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

13 MS. BRACKETT: Okay. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: Of course, in some 

15 cases, I guess we're not recording what 

16 NIOSH's response actually is, in these, since 

17 there were --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, they are the -

19 -

20 CHAIR MUNN: You're getting it? 

21 Okay, good, you were typing faster than I 

22 anticipated. 

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135 
 

1 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, there is not -

2 - what Liz is saying has already been --

3 basically, has already added that. 

4 If you look at the --

5 CHAIR MUNN: Not in the in 

6 abeyance. 

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: She said that in 

8 four. 

9 MS. BRACKETT: Yes. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I knew that it 

11 has been in the --

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Even in the in 

13 abeyance ones, she has had it -- she is right 

14 on the ball. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: I see, okay. Gosh, 

16 you're --

17 MS. BRACKETT: Yes, I went through 

18 everything and put responses to all of these. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you so much. 

20 So, yes, then all we have to do is say the 

21 Subcommittee agrees, closed. 

22 MS. BRACKETT: Okay, so, there is 

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1 just two more. Finding eight, this is 

2 actually identical to finding 18, which was in 

3 the open items. So, this -- it has the same 

4 response. It has to do with values being 

5 taken from a table, and those are no longer 

6 used. 

7 Then finding nine, let's see, oh, 

8 it mentions that it's arbitrary to use three 

9 to four days post-intake to calculate 

10 fractional retention. 

11 OTIB-2 assumed an acute intake. 

12 OTIB-18 assumes a chronic exposure, which is 

13 one of the reasons why we wanted to eliminate 

14 OTIB-2. That was, again, very early. It was 

15 an assumption that we made early on, and have 

16 changed our basic approach to assessment since 

17 then, and we assume a chronic exposure. 

18 So, that finding is no longer 

19 applicable to what's being done. 

20 So, and I have to go, because I'm 

21 going to be late for my appointment. I'll be 

22 back, after lunch, if anything else comes up. 

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137 
 

1 CHAIR MUNN: That is great. Thank 

2 you, Liz. 

3 MS. BRACKETT: Okay, thanks. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: We really appreciate 

5 you getting this into the database for us, 

6 too. 

7 MS. BRACKETT: Okay, thank you. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Bye-bye. 

9 MS. BRACKETT: Bye. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, she said that 

11 was all, but I still show 12. Did she cover 

12 12? So, 12 is in abeyance? 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Twelve, I show as 

14 open. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: Mine says in abeyance. 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: I might have changed 

17 it. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is OTIB-2-12? 

19 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB-2-12, but it's 

20 another one of those writing styles, which 

21 would seem to go away automatically. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: How could we both 

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138 
 

1 have different things? 

2 CHAIR MUNN: I don't know. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, 12 is on the 

4 open list, that Liz --

5 CHAIR MUNN: That she covered? 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, yes. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: That Liz submitted. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: That she submitted. 

9 DR. MAURO: And we went over those. 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: But hers is showing 

11 in the database as in abeyance. That is what 

12 puzzles me. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Might be operator 

15 error on my part. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: That's all right, 

17 we've already hit it. So, it's now --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, yours shows 

19 in abeyance, too. Did you just change it? 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: I just changed it. 

21 So, you might have to refresh, and I changed 

22 it to the wrong thing. So, yes --

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139 
 

1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Because I haven't 

3 refreshed, and mine still says --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: I haven't, and mine 

5 still says open. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Now, as a quick 

7 double-check, when Steve gets through there, 

8 it -- let's go back to our -- let's go back to 

9 the original Board report, and see if it shows 

10 all those good things, closed, for OTIB-2. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Mine shows six 

12 items open, Wanda, on your list. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: I show six on my list 

14 right now? 

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

16 DR. MAURO: Really fast, now. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: It is. 

18 DR. MAURO: I mean, it's moving in 

19 slow motion, now, it's really moving. That is 

20 great. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: It really is. Well, 

22 it was very helpful to have -- Liz already 

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140 
 

1 have posted those things on the database, 

2 itself. That is extremely helpful. 

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, one is closed. 

4 Two is closed. Three is closed. Four, five, 

5 six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 

6 15, 16, 17, 18. Okay, now, you want to go 

7 back to the --

8 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: -- original data 

10 screen and see, documents under Board review. 

11 OTIB-10. 

12 DR. MAURO: Two. 

13 MR. MARSCHKE: OTIB-2, I should 

14 say. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: The one on the 

17 bottom, there, it's showing basically, again, 

18 I don't know if the count is strange. I don't 

19 know what it is counting. 

20 MR. KATZ: That's okay, we're going 

21 to fix that. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Active findings. 

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141 
 

1 CHAIR MUNN: Mine is refreshing, 

2 now. 

3 DR. MAURO: But they're all closed, 

4 now? 

5 MR. MARSCHKE: The status all 

6 showed closed for each of the findings. 

7 DR. MAURO: And they're showing six 

8 that are active. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

10 DR. ULSH: And that number should 

11 be changing. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, that's 

13 interesting, because I still -- my refresh 

14 says -- I have to resend the information, 

15 which you previously submitted. 

16 We'll just ignore that, and we'll 

17 know that it doesn't come up, immediately, and 

18 we all need a break. Back at 11 o'clock, is 

19 that okay? Very good, whoever is on the line, 

20 we'll be back at 11. 

21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

22 matter went off the record at 10:48 a.m. and 

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1 resumed at 11:02 a.m.) 

2 MR. KATZ: Folks on the line, we're 

3 just rejoining you. Procedures Subcommittee, 

4 Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health. 

5 Wanda? 

6 CHAIR MUNN: We've just come back 

7 from a short break, and then next item on our 

8 agenda that we have listed is TIB-10 review. 

9 We had an action item to have a 

10 report from NIOSH, regarding their review of 

11 Bob Anigstein's report, that he gave us last 

12 time, I believe. 

13 Is NIOSH ready to comment on that, 

14 now? 

15 DR. ULSH: Well, not quite yet. 

16 The status on that one is -- corresponded with 

17 the author of TIB-10, Greg Macievic. He has 

18 given me back some draft responses, but I'm 

19 not ready to send those out, just yet. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

21 DR. ULSH: Should have it by next 

22 meeting, though. 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, so, we're going 

2 to carry that over? 

3 DR. ULSH: Yes. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Are we? 

5 DR. ULSH: Yes. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Well, if I could 

7 remember what I did with my pen, I'll make a 

8 note of that. 

9 DR. MAURO: Have this one. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: I covered it up. The 

11 other carry-over items that we had from 

12 earlier was TIB-21-04, a response on the 

13 partial and year issue. SC&A wanted an 

14 opportunity to take a look at that, and do we 

15 have a report? 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, we do. I have 

17 to find it. Give me a second. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: All right, that's 

19 fine. 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: I believe it's in --

21 actually, I think I sent an email, alerting 

22 the -- a while back, alerting the Subcommittee 

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1 that we had -- NIOSH had responded and I 

2 believe it's four. 

3 Basically, I asked Ron Buchanan to 

4 look this over, and we got -- received from 

5 Elyse, back -- this was back in -- it says it 

6 was back in July 2010, some information, and 

7 in the March 22nd -- this would be -- NIOSH 

8 will provide a response. 

9 I believe NIOSH did provide that 

10 response. I forwarded it to Ron Buchanan, and 

11 Ron looked it over, and you can see, Ron's 

12 review -- reply here, that is in the database. 

13 We're missing -- actually, we're 

14 missing the NIOSH response. Let me see if I 

15 can find that. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: That should be 

17 attached to the file, shouldn't it, to the 

18 March comments? 

19 MS. THOMAS: Yes, hi, this is 

20 Elyse. I agree with Steve on the sequence of 

21 events that occurred. 

22 It's just that until the linking is 

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1 completed, I can't attach that full response 

2 that was sent out electronically. 

3 So, it's on my list, and as soon as 

4 -- you know, the linking works, then the full 

5 NIOSH response, that SC&A reviewed, can be 

6 included in the database. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: That was one of the 

8 original five we had listed, wasn't it, Elyse? 

9 MS. THOMAS: Yes, I think it -- I 

10 think the response includes some tables, and 

11 if you -- without attaching them, they run all 

12 together and it's very difficult to make any 

13 sense out of. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

15 MS. THOMAS: So, we might as well 

16 wait for the linking. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: That's fine, but we--

18 MR. HINNEFELD: That was sent out 

19 on July 11th, so, we're --

20 CHAIR MUNN: July 11th, so, we 

21 should actually have it, right? 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, it said that 

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1 there was an attachment, but it wasn't 

2 attached. Well, maybe this is a copy that 

3 doesn't have the attachment. 

4 Yes, okay, I'm looking at a -- I am 

5 looking at Steve's --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: 

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: 

8 MR. MARSCHKE: 

9 was talking about. 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: 

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: 

13 to Brant's original one. 

14 your response to Brant's. 

15 MR. MARSCHKE: 

Response. 

-- response, yes. 

This is what Elyse 

Yes. 

This is Brant's. 

Yes, let me go back 

I was looking at 

And this is the --

16 this is the attachment that Elyse was talking 

17 about, here. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, no, I've got 

19 that here, yes. 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: You can see, it's 

21 all full of tables and -- which are not easily 

22 put in form, or can't be put into the 

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1 database. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: That is what it was, 

3 okay. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Tables have to be 

5 put in as attachments or are linked, or how do 

6 we --

7 CHAIR MUNN: Well, we have to --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: The problem is, 

9 when you try to cut and paste a table into a 

10 response field, you have to --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, I understand. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: -- it's all 

13 obliterated, and so, we need to attach the 

14 Word file. 

15 Each one of these have a space here 

16 for an attachment, so --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: What will happen is 

19 --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: You'll plug it in 

21 there. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: It will put it in 

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1 there, and it will hook into this Word file. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: And what was the date 

4 that was sent, you said? 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: July 11th. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: July 11th. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: July 11th? 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, right. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Ron's conclusion 

11 was, basically, he sensed further analysis 

12 would not provide additional resolution and 

13 the magnitude of the influence of the partial 

14 year data on the coworker dose is relatively 

15 small. We recommend that this issue be 

16 closed. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: All right. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is Ron's 

19 response to the document that --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Right, yes. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: All right, any 

22 objection to closure? 

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: No objection. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: The Subcommittee 

3 agrees. Item closed. Thank you very much. 

4 That is very nice to have that off the list. 

5 We still have the issue of the 

6 outstanding linking issue, or problem, that 

7 goes on, but I think Elyse is keeping track of 

8 that, pretty closely, and when that occurs, 

9 hopefully, all of this will magically happen. 

10 MS. THOMAS: Yes, I think they're 

11 very close to, you know, getting it to work 

12 properly. So, it should be very soon. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Good, good. All 

14 right, in my efforts to be clever, I have lost 

15 my Board review system. There it is. One 

16 item down. 

17 The next item on my list was the 

18 linking list that Elyse and I were going to 

19 put together. 

20 I haven't even spoken to Elyse 

21 about this, but so far as I know, we have the 

22 same list. 

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1 I have OTIB-1, OTIB-47-2, OTIB-19, 

2 of course now, we'll add OTIB-21-04 to that. 

3 Are there others that you have on your list, 

4 that still need to be watched for our ability 

5 to transfer into the application, Elyse? 

6 MS. THOMAS: No, Wanda, I have the 

7 same list. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, that is very 

9 good. Then all we can do is just wait for 

10 this to happen. 

11 The next item that I have is TIB12 013. The action items were a re-write of 

13 three and four, that SC&A were going to 

14 undertake, and the status response on five, 

15 from NIOSH. 

16 Do we have a re-write on three and 

17 four available to us? 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda, we had a re19 write the last -- actually, at the last 

20 meeting, we had a re-write. 

21 So, I think we did this at the last 

22 -- and we discussed the three and four quite 

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1 extensively, at the last meeting. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: We also discussed that 

3 numbering system problem. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: And the numbering 

5 system problem, with the -- whether it was 

6 DCAS, TIB-13, OCAS-TIB-13 or 013 or 0013, or 

7 what it was. 

8 So, we had quite a long discussion 

9 on this, and Bob, actually did do a re-write 

10 of actually three, four and I think he -- it 

11 was even five, which was done in the last go12 around, and so, I don't know that there is 

13 anything more to add beyond that. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: The last three? 

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Let me see, I'm just 

16 trying to get the --

17 CHAIR MUNN: It appears that July 

18 13th, SC&A has essentially withdrawn the issue. 

19 So, three is now closed, and four? 

20 Four says -- four and six are the 

21 same technical issue, is what the comment was 

22 there, and if that's -- let's see, six is --

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1 doesn't represent a scientifically valid or 

2 claimant-favorable approach, to develop a 

3 correction factor for organs in the lower 

4 torso, and that is closed. 

5 So, are we correct, that four is 

6 the same issue, to the extent that it also can 

7 be closed? The procedure underestimates the 

8 maximum correction factor to be applied to the 

9 badge readings. 

10 Therefore, the procedure does not 

11 provide adequate guidance for defining the 

12 claimant-favorable assumptions. 

13 That was the last --

14 MR. MARSCHKE: That was the last 

15 one that was --

16 CHAIR MUNN: -- thing we had from 

17 SC&A. Does NIOSH agree, that item four, which 

18 is shown as in process, is the same as item 

19 six, which is closed? 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe that was 

21 our original comment. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Four was in 

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1 progress. Basically, yes, we got to be 

2 careful of circular reasoning, here. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I know. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I think we decided 

5 to close six, and keep four open, as an -- one 

6 of them has to be resolved. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

8 MR. MARSCHKE: They're both the 

9 same, but one of them has to be resolved. So, 

10 I think we decided to close six and keep four 

11 open. 

12 MR. KATZ: We did. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

15 MR. MARSCHKE: So, that is why four 

16 is shown as in progress. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: And so, we have 

18 essentially, an action item that is due from 

19 NIOSH, on four, correct? 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the last 

21 substantive entry I read on four is our 

22 reading of the finding, that the predominant 

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1 difference between what the TIB contains and 

2 what SC&A says it should contain, in terms of 

3 the geometric adjustment, based on 

4 Mallinckrodt exposure geometry, has to do with 

5 the orientation and geometry of the badge, the 

6 angular dependence of the badge, rather than 

7 anything that's specific about Mallinckrodt --

8 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: -- geometry. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: So, our last 

12 substantive comment says, well, this really 

13 goes in the overarching issue category, 

14 because the appropriateness of using a 

15 dosimeter badge reading is broader than just 

16 geometries at Mallinckrodt. That is our last 

17 substantive response. 

18 And so, to me, it sounds like this 

19 transfers to overarching issues, but you know, 

20 I don't know how you want to do that. That's 

21 the way it sounds to me. 

22 Now, I'm not 100 percent sure that 

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1 SC&A agreed with our reading of that being the 

2 basis for the difference. That may be -- and 

3 I don't recall if you did or not. 

4 There is no substantive entry after 

5 the recommendation to go to overarching 

6 issues, so we indicate that. 

7 So, I don't know, but -- whether we 

8 interpret that correctly or not. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Do we need to have --

10 retain an action item for next time, for SC&A 

11 to revisit this again, and see that they agree 

12 that this is an overarching issue, and would 

13 go to the Science Issues Group, rather than 

14 close it? 

15 We can't close it because it's the 

16 same as 06, but is it appropriate to have that 

17 outstanding --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: It seems to me, it 

19 makes sense. Actually, the original finding 

20 is a little bit vague on which --

21 DR. MAURO: Yes, I agree. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- what the actual 

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1 concerns were, you know, does it have to do 

2 with geometry? Was there --

3 DR. MAURO: I mean, on face value, 

4 I agree with what Stu said, but I hate to jump 

5 to a conclusion, because I am not -- there may 

6 be more to the story. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: There may be more 

8 to it than that. It seemed that way to me, 

9 because it had to do with -- I mean, in one 

10 case, there was -- if I'm not mistaken, there 

11 was -- I think Bob ran MCNP modeling of the 

12 geometry, and in that, he accounted for the 

13 badge being -- you know, the orientation of 

14 the badge. 

15 And so, you define an orientation 

16 of the badge, and we knew that model is 

17 directly vertical. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And the source 

20 being, you know, somewhat displaced 

21 vertically, you would have a geometric, or an 

22 angular dependence aspect to the badge, in 

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1 addition to the geometry, and he also did some 

2 -- Bremsstrahlung carry-through -- you know, 

3 he did his MCNP for the whole range of 

4 energies, where we just did the geometry. 

5 And so, it's not clear to me that 

6 the badge angular dependence accounts for all 

7 of it or not. 

8 DR. MAURO: Yes, Bob, could you tie 

9 in? Yes, Bob, it's John, can you hear me 

10 okay? 

11 Yes, Bob, it's John, could you call 

12 in? He is not hearing me. Bob? I hear him, 

13 but he couldn't hear me. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, if Bob -- you 

15 know, if we catch him cold, he may need some 

16 time to refresh his memory. So, it may be 

17 better not to try to get him on the line. 

18 DR. MAURO: So, we'll take that and 

19 have an action item on that. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: We'll just have an 

21 action item for next time. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: And maybe just send 

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1 a note, there is -- yes, you're correct, it's 

2 badge geometry, or no, there is more to it 

3 than that. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: And then, I guess 

6 there is a certain magnitude. I can't believe 

7 that a geometry, a Bremsstrahlung component, 

8 through -- it's going to be that terribly 

9 significant, in terms of dose numbers. 

10 DR. MAURO: I think the combination 

11 of a low-energy photon coming at a high angle 

12 might be a problem. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And in terms of 

14 badge dependence? 

15 DR. MAURO: Yes, yes. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that -- yes, 

17 well, it's got to go through more filter than 

18 you would expect, so, yes. 

19 DR. MAURO: Right. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

21 DR. MAURO: But I'll talk to Bob, 

22 and we'll find out if it's -- if it turns out, 

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159 
 

1 it's in his opinion, yes, there is nothing 

2 about this problem -- I think this is the 

3 question. 

4 There is nothing about this that's 

5 unique to this site. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Specific. 

7 DR. MAURO: It's overarching and 

8 it's dealt with by the --

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, right. 

10 MR. KATZ: Can I ask a question 

11 about that, though? 

12 It's not clear to me, even if it's 

13 not specific to a site, is -- is the goal 

14 always to punt this to the -- I mean, we 

15 didn't even have a Science Issues Work Group, 

16 until recently. 

17 I mean, is there a reason to send 

18 it there, as opposed to deal with it, here? 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the idea, I 

20 mean, the noble concept is that this -- it may 

21 affect other documents, besides this one, 

22 where we've encountered it. 

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1 Therefore, we resolve this issue 

2 and make sure that it's resolved once. 

3 MR. KATZ: No, I agree and then 

4 getting to the --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: That's the noble 

6 issue. Now, my personal issue is to get it 

7 off the table. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: They don't all 

9 necessarily go to the Science Issues Group. 

10 For example, the 10 to the minus 6 

11 --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Resuspension. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- resuspension 

14 factor, the point was, there is another 

15 document on that topic, and it's not specific 

16 to the site. 

17 Whether there is another document 

18 on the topic, is there a film badge, you know, 

19 geometry issue, or is it -- does there need to 

20 be a document discussing those kind of 

21 parameters? 

22 But it's not necessarily the 

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1 Science, but it is overarching. 

2 MR. KATZ: No, I understand it's 

3 overarching. 

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, I mean, we think 

5 about OCAS-IG-001, the big book on external 

6 dosimetry. That is sort of like your -- the 

7 base on whichever you build. 

8 Now, I don't recall whether or not 

9 that subject is discussed or not. It may be, 

10 or maybe alert the reader to it, that you need 

11 to take -- I don't remember, it's been awhile 

12 since I read that. 

13 But I mean, in theory, it could go 

14 toward that, you know, that particular 

15 procedure, and whether or not that adequately 

16 provides guidance, because we -- we run into 

17 this all of the time. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it's a continuing 

19 issue, and for that reason, I had thought that 

20 it was one of those, that's on this list, I 

21 had thought, the badge geometry thing, because 

22 we keep talking about it. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: It comes up here, 

2 and it comes up in dose reconstruction. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Everywhere, yes. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: And a lot of 

5 overarching issue things have come up in dose 

6 reconstruction, or a number, maybe not a lot, 

7 but some have. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Well, quite a few. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, if it is 

10 overarching, where does it go -- is that your 

11 question --

12 CHAIR MUNN: That's the real 

13 question. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: To the cloud. 

15 MR. KATZ: Yes, my -- I just wasn't 

16 assuming that everything goes to the other 

17 Work Group, now, that we've established --

18 just because this is overarching. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, it goes to 

21 the to-do list in the sky. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and if it is on -

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163 
 

1 - if it's already on Jim Neton's list, which I 

2 believe it is, then we can close it on the 

3 basis, or the fact that it isn't overarching. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, that would 

5 still obligate a transfer, though. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, the fact that 

8 it's on the list, doesn't necessarily mean 

9 that somebody is working on it. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: No, right. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Could I ask a 

12 question, here? It says re-write of three and 

13 four, but three was closed already, wasn't it? 

14 CHAIR MUNN: Last time. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, this is an 

16 item --

17 CHAIR MUNN: That was the --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: -- that was carried 

19 in the last meeting. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that was a carry21 over. We had three and four on my carry-over 

22 list --

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, I see. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: -- and it got carried 

3 over. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: I carried over some of 

6 the --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: I got you. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: The ones we had last 

9 time. 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Instead of taking 

12 three off. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: I got you. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: The next time we have 

15 it, we will see it as -- only as item four, 

16 and as SC&A looking at it. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: And five also is 

18 closed, right? 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Now, five, status of 

20 response on five, we could -- I don't believe 

21 we --

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: It shows here as 

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1 being closed. 

2 DR. ULSH: Yes, that is what I 

3 have, and that is my recollection. This is 

4 the issue about the height of persons, we said 

5 it's 60 to --

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we argued whether 

7 it was 60 or 61, or 60? 

8 DR. ULSH: Yes, and I think we 

9 closed that last time. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: I think that was 

11 closed. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: All right. 

13 DR. MAURO: I got a hold of Bob. 

14 He is going to call in. 

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, actually, the 

16 document says it was closed. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: It does? 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: On July 14th. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, now, I see it. 

20 MR. KATZ: Well, let me just go 

21 back real quick, to John, or could -- you had 

22 gone out of the room, and John, I was going to 

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1 say something. 

2 But for issue four, which you just 

3 spoke to Bob about, but if you would just send 

4 me a copy -- you were going to look back into 

5 how big of an issue that is, how much there is 

6 there, in terms of the angular dependence 

7 question. 

8 If you would just send me an 

9 encapsulation of it, in an email, then I will 

10 see that that goes to the Science Work Group, 

11 Jim -- with a question, is this on their 

12 plate, and if it's not on the plate, then we 

13 can figure out whether they want it on their 

14 plate. 

15 But because they're going to have 

16 a Work Group coming up in a month or so, I 

17 want to make sure we pony up everything we 

18 can, that they're considering taking on. 

19 All right, so, if you would just 

20 send me an email with that, that would be 

21 great, and just put a reminder, this is a 

22 question for the Science Work Group, and then 

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1 I'll distribute that. 

2 DR. ANIGSTEIN: This is Bob 

3 Anigstein. I just joined, SC&A. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Hi there, Bob. 

5 Welcome. 

6 MR. KATZ: Hi Bob. 

7 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Hi, thank you. 

8 John Mauro called me to say there was 

9 something about angular dependence. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, Bob, this is 

12 Stu Hinnefeld, and it's -- I'm talking largely 

13 from memory here. 

14 But one of the findings, and this 

15 may not be convenient to you, but this is from 

16 the Mallinckrodt -- special geometries of 

17 Mallinckrodt. 

18 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, the original 

19 TIB-13. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, and there 

21 was a finding in there, finding four, where 

22 your comment -- I believe you were the 

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1 reviewer and commenter, was that the 

2 adjustment that we provide in the TIB, you 

3 could not replicate. You got a different 

4 adjustment, and I forget all of the ins and 

5 outs of it. 

6 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Well, first of all, 

7 we did it with MCNP. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, I remember 

9 that part. 

10 DR. ANIGSTEIN: And that was done 

11 with ATILLA, right away. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

13 DR. ANIGSTEIN: We had a different, 

14 and I believe we also used a somewhat -- now, 

15 honestly, I think it was done four years ago. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

17 DR. ANIGSTEIN: So, I'm not sure 

18 whether we used the same geometry. 

19 I think the problem -- now, I'm 

20 going really from memory. The problem was 

21 that with the -- the way the ATILLA was done, 

22 it wasn't that the ATILLA per se is wrong, but 

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1 the way it was done was that they produced a 

2 whole bunch of results for -- with the target 

3 organ being at various places, and then they 

4 think they used something like Crystal Ball, 

5 to do a Monte Carlo sampling, and we didn't do 

6 that. 

7 We simply took the organ that would 

8 be most affected, let's say if he was holding 

9 -- working right alongside the uranium ingot, 

10 you know, that was -- the same geometry that 

11 was illustrated in the TIB, the ingot was 

12 cylinder and horizontal axis in the horizontal 

13 plane, and it was from left to right, you 

14 know, a center on the body, and we would take 

15 a point, just -- I guess we probably took the 

16 HP-10, so, we just -- in the skin, just under 

17 the skin, right opposite the cylinder, at the 

18 nearest point. 

19 And then we calculated dose there, 

20 and we calculated the dose, or the fluence to 

21 the film badge, putting the film badge up 

22 above and slightly to one side, where a lapel 

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1 would go, and then we also took into 

2 consideration the angular dependence on the 

3 film badge, because the film badge was assumed 

4 to be in the vertical plane that was facing 

5 forward, and the photons were coming in, 

6 sometimes at a very steep angle. 

7 So, we used the angular dependence 

8 in ICRP-74, and folded that into the photon 

9 fluence conversion, now converting it to dose, 

10 and so, we got a total factor of about -- I 

11 think we -- we got something about, and I'm 

12 going from memory, something like seven, 

13 without the angular dependence, and then, with 

14 the angular dependence, it went up to 10. 

15 So, the angular dependence didn't 

16 play a huge role. The main thing was the 

17 geometry. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

19 DR. ANIGSTEIN: They were still 

20 significant, but the bigger factor was the 

21 geometry. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, so, then our 

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1 response will need to be a little more 

2 expansive than what we proposed. 

3 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Excuse me? 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, our 

5 recollection was that the bulk of the 

6 difference was due to angular dependence, more 

7 so than the geometry --

8 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No, no, that's 

9 actually not correct. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: The bigger 

11 difference --

12 DR. ANIGSTEIN: That's not my 

13 recollection. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: -- to the geometry 

15 and the different methods --

16 DR. MAURO: That would make it 

17 applicable to this particular problem, then. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes. 

19 DR. MAURO: Yes, so, it does become 

20 --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Site specific. 

22 DR. MAURO: It does become site 

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1 specific. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Which puts it back 

3 in our court. 

4 DR. MAURO: So, there is -- well, 

5 let me ask, go back to -- Ted posed a question 

6 to me, that is -- would be helpful if I were 

7 to put this together into a memo, because if 

8 it -- as to the degree to which it needs to be 

9 addressed by the overarching group, the global 

10 question. 

11 But are we back here, now again, 

12 into this group? 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Let us read what 

14 you provided, because -- I mean, Bob gave us 

15 this on the phone. You guys have -- you're 

16 right, you know, we're looking here at clear 

17 importance, you know. 

18 There is a general rule, 

19 particularly to what you're telling us -- what 

20 you're telling us in your report, and so, 

21 let's go back to the substantive document that 

22 Bob gave us. Let us do that, and if at that 

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1 time, we're still not entirely clear about 

2 what was done or so on, and what exactly is 

3 the origin of the difference, then we'll let 

4 you know, and maybe you can give us a little 

5 more explanation on it or something. 

6 But let's take -- we'll take the 

7 first action. 

8 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay, but if it's 

9 of any help, I'm going to be in Cincinnati. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think we'll 

11 be ready tomorrow, Bob. 

12 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I'll work with you 

13 on that. 

14 MR. KATZ: So, the other thing, 

15 Stu, is, if it looks to you then like there is 

16 -- this is a meaty issue that might do well in 

17 the Science Work Group, let me know. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

19 MR. KATZ: 

20 their plate. 

21 DR. MAURO: 

22 MR. KATZ: 

And we'll put it on 

Okay, so --

Or offer it to their 

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1 plate, at least. 

2 DR. MAURO: So, in light of the 

3 conversation we had, I'll put on hold --

4 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

5 DR. MAURO: -- any action I take, 

6 until we get back. 

7 MR. KATZ: Right, thank you, John. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: All right, so, I'm 

9 changing it from SC&A's action, to NIOSH is 

10 going to take another look and see if they 

11 need to expand on their response, correct? 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Do we add -- okay, 

15 what do we -- do we add a comment here? 

16 CHAIR MUNN: I think we need to 

17 say, after -- we'll just say, Board discussion 

18 this date. 

19 MR. MARSCHKE: This is TIB -- this 

20 is four? 

21 CHAIR MUNN: This is four. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: We're going to add a 

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1 comment. This finding -- well, obviously it 

2 was discussed. 

3 MR. KATZ: Yes, and you said DCAS 

4 is going to re-examine SC&A comments and 

5 report back. Bob? 

6 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes? 

7 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry, it sounded 

8 like you wanted to say something. 

9 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No, no, no, I was 

10 wondering, are we still on TIB-13? 

11 CHAIR MUNN: We are still on TIB12 13. 

13 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay. 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, so, there it 

15 is. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that's good. 

17 Thank you. Now, before we leave TIB-13, the 

18 only other thing that I had on my notes to 

19 talk about was what we touched on earlier 

20 today, our last meeting's discussion, with 

21 respect to the fact that we had three 

22 different types of TIB-13s, and there was no 

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1 specific taking of action. 

2 But it was my understanding that we 

3 were going to check, to see what -- whether 

4 there were three different documents, whether 

5 this is different nomenclature for one 

6 document, and make sure that however we have 

7 it in our -- in our review system, it can be 

8 found without confusion. 

9 We currently have it in the review 

10 system as 013. 

11 DR. ULSH: I will put that down as 

12 a database clean-up issue, going in. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Good, okay. Thank 

14 you. 

15 MR. KATZ: So, then we're finished 

16 with TIB-13, right? 

17 CHAIR MUNN: I believe that takes 

18 care of TIB-13, unless there is some other 

19 item on this particular document, that is 

20 giving anybody any pain right now. 

21 MR. KATZ: Okay, thanks for joining 

22 us, Bob. 

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1 DR. ANIGSTEIN: You're welcome. My 

2 pleasure. I'll be signing off, then. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you, appreciate 

4 that. We are a little early. Do you want to 

5 break and go to lunch now, or do you want to 

6 go on to TIB-52, before we do that? 

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Let's go to TIB-52. 

8 DR. ULSH: Well, that will be 

9 pretty short. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Get it out of the 

12 way. 

13 DR. ULSH: We've received SC&A's 

14 report on that document, but we don't have 

15 responses for it, yet. So, that is pretty 

16 short. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, so, that's going 

18 to be another carry-over for next time. 

19 MR. KATZ: So, SC&A, okay. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I solved a little 

21 of the puzzle of OCAS and DCAS-TIB-13. 

22 DCAS-TIB-13 apparently replaced 

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1 OCAS-TIB-13. OCAS-TIB-13 --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Just a renumbering. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: -- is Rev. 1, 

4 essentially. OCAS-TIB-13 was specifically 

5 about Mallinckrodt. When it was rewritten, it 

6 was about uranium processing facilities, 

7 because there are others that would be very 

8 similar. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, does the other 

10 one -- does that compare them? 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Essentially, it's 

12 one. OCAS-TIB-13 really can go away, because 

13 it's been -- well, I think it's been 

14 superceded by DCAS-TIB-13, which really would 

15 be Rev. 1 of OCAS-TIB-13, or whatever you want 

16 to call it. 

17 If the initial publication is Rev. 

18 0, then DCAS-TIB-13 would be Rev. 1 of that 

19 document, and part of the change was, we 

20 changed the title. 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: How do we handle 

22 that in the database? 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know 

2 anything about it. Here is -- well, what we 

3 should do is -- this is for us to do, not here 

4 in the meeting, but for us to do. 

5 We need to go look at the findings 

6 on the first one, OTIB-13, see what we said we 

7 -- you know, was there anything there that's 

8 in abeyance, that we said we would take care 

9 of at revision, or even if not, has the 

10 revision addressed any of that -- tried to 

11 address any of those things, in which case, 

12 you know, we might be able to close some of 

13 the open TIB-13's, in the first place, and 

14 then just -- and try to get those all done, 

15 and just deal with the second one. The 

16 first thing, though, is to make sure that we 

17 don't lose something in the process. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, but in the 

19 document, we can still indicate that these all 

20 most into this other document, right? 

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and probably 

22 should, in terms of keeping our record clear, 

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1 here. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: We still have the 

3 original record. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: We should probably 

5 just simply state, as a part of our closing of 

6 the document, we probably should state that 

7 this document has become DCAS-TIB-13, when it 

8 -- when Rev. 1 was published, because of the 

9 change of title of the Agency, and that they 

10 can be considered to be extensions of the same 

11 document, rather than change our listing here 

12 in our database, to DCAS-13. It appears 

13 reasonable, to me, to simply make that 

14 notation, at the time that we close it out, 

15 would be our final notation. 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, we've already 

17 closed -- I'm not sure I understand what -- I 

18 mean, basically, what we have now in the 

19 database is, we have two documents identified, 

20 DCAS-TIB-13 and OCAS-TIB-13. 

21 OCAS-TIB-13 has a number of 

22 comments, at least six of them, issues 

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1 associated with them, many of which have 

2 already been closed out. 

3 So, your suggest is, we carry both 

4 documents in the database, and we go back to 

5 the OCAS documents and identify on the six 

6 issues that were -- you know --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Only in the open 

8 ones, I think. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Only the open ones? 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right? If it's 

11 already closed --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I would think 

13 only the open ones. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because the open 

15 one, you -- I think that's what Stu was 

16 saying, that you'd look at those open items 

17 and say, "Does the new one cover it?" 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: And we would say --

20 we would handle it like we would on a normal 

21 revision. 

22 If there is a Rev. 1 on something 

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1 else, what do you do? 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, Rev. 1, 

3 basically what happens, if you have a Rev. 1 

4 or revision, then the document itself is 

5 replaced and you really don't have that 

6 problem, because you don't get a new document 

7 number. 

8 So, you don't have two entries into 

9 the database. So, you're really not going to 

10 have that -- the problem that you're having 

11 now, with two entries. 

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: What do you do with 

13 open items? 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: They basically just 

15 get carried over, but if you --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: But that's what 

17 you're suggesting to do, here? 

18 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I wasn't 

21 suggesting that. I was suggesting you carry 

22 the old one and then -- well, okay. 

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1 See, what happens is, you're going 

2 to lose the information on what you did. 

3 DR. MAURO: Well, you don't want to 

4 lose it. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Unless you carry 

6 all of the information forward, but see, some 

7 of it may not apply in the new document. That 

8 is what I'm wondering about. 

9 DR. ULSH: Can I break in for just 

10 a second? 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Please. 

12 DR. ULSH: I've just got notes from 

13 a couple of people, saying they've been 

14 disconnected. The phone appears to be 

15 disconnected. 

16 MR. KATZ: Sorry, to folks on the 

17 line. We got disconnected, briefly. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: So, we're still 

19 discussing what to do about the fact that we 

20 have an OCAS-TIB-13, with two zeros in front 

21 of it or one zero in front of it? 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, right now, 

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1 it's got one zero in front of it, at this 

2 point. 

3 I don't know, we might have 

4 another. We might have a version with two 

5 zeros. I don't know if this is one that we 

6 have --

7 CHAIR MUNN: Well, originally, we 

8 had two zeros on it. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, could I ask 

10 Stu, to what extent is it a true replacement, 

11 in the sense that, is it just -- really, just 

12 a new version of that one, or is it --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it expands 

14 the scope, to also -- also, to go beyond 

15 Mallinckrodt, and to consider the same -- make 

16 the same considerations at other similar 

17 sites. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, I'm wondering 

19 if there are Mallinckrodt specific issues that 

20 were in the original one, then maybe they had 

21 been closed, and you lose them completely in 

22 the new one. 

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1 DR. MAURO: Yes, you don't want to 

2 lose that. 

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: You don't want to 

4 lose your --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, so, that is -

6 -

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is really what 

8 I'm asking. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: So, we only have 

10 design database issue, with what do you do 

11 with old versions of procedures and the 

12 actions, and the progress that was done on 

13 those. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is there any reason 

15 --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: So, that's not 

17 going to be --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- not just to 

19 leave it in there? 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: On this one, I would 

21 have no problem in leaving it. Basically, you 

22 have two different documents. 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: They are two 

3 different numbers. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: And then those open 

5 items, you can easily say they're now covered 

6 in this other document. 

7 MR. KATZ: Right, right, I think 

8 that's the simplest thing to do. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Just leave the rest 

10 there, for historic purposes. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Seems logical, yes, I 

12 certainly would not want to --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: And you don't want 

14 to lose the information that you've closed on 

15 the issues. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: Right, no, you don't 

17 want to do that. OTIB-13 stays, and DCAS-TIB18 13 goes in. 

19 DR. MAURO: And they have different 

20 titles. 

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, slightly 

22 different titles. 

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1 DR. MAURO: Slightly, okay, that 

2 helps. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: If it was a true 

5 revision and goes from Rev. 0 to Rev. 1, then 

6 basically, the document number stays the same. 

7 The document title stays the same. 

8 DR. MAURO: It's a new Rev. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: And so, it really 

10 doesn't change anything in the database. 

11 DR. MAURO: So, it's real. See, 

12 our problem before, we were not sure whether 

13 this is a real different document, or we just 

14 mis-typed in some information about the 

15 designation. 

16 Now, we know, it's a real, new 

17 document, and we handle it as a real, new 

18 document. 

19 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, the problem 

21 before was -- yes, exactly, John, it was 

22 whether or not there was -- I'm trying to pull 

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188 
 

1 up an example, here. 

2 DR. MAURO: We just did this with 

3 two and 18, right? Isn't that similar? 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Pretty much, similar. 

5 DR. MAURO: Similar? 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Similar, but such 

7 different nomenclature. 

8 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: And such different --

10 DR. MAURO: Because they're so 

11 close. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: -- identifier, that it 

13 was -- but since this new document has evolved 

14 out of the original one, it's -- there is 

15 logic to maintaining the numerical system. 

16 But since it came out of Rev. 1, 

17 it's Rev. 1 of this, really. But it's a 

18 different document, entirely. So, that makes 

19 sense. 

20 We still have no answer, we're all 

21 blank, I guess, on the OTIB-013 designation on 

22 the database, as opposed to 003 -- 0013. 

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1 MR. KATZ: That is going to be 

2 covered in the clean-up. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: And that is going to 

4 magically occur. 

5 MR. KATZ: So, TIB-52, Brant, do 

6 you think you folks will be ready for the next 

7 --

8 DR. ULSH: Yes. 

9 MR. KATZ: -- meeting? Okay, 

10 thanks. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Good, then there is 

12 nothing to do with that. 

13 Now, even though it is only 11:45 

14 a.m., I do think it's wise for us to take 

15 lunch now, simply because what happens this 

16 afternoon is almost entirely verging on 

17 administrative times of discussions, and 

18 overarching issues, and the two pagers, any 

19 one of which could take us more than 15 

20 minutes to discuss, or to take care of. 

21 So, let's revise our agenda, unless 

22 you feel very strongly otherwise, and we will 

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1 go to lunch now, and be back at one o'clock. 

2 Is that reasonable? 

3 MR. KATZ: Wanda is hungry. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Wanda is hungry. Time 

5 for lunch. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: You're the boss. 

7 MR. KATZ: Thank you, everyone on 

8 the line, and we'll be back at one o'clock, 

9 did you say, Wanda? 

10 CHAIR MUNN: One. 

11 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

12 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

13 matter went off the record at 11:45 a.m. and 

14 resumed at 1:00 p.m.) 

15 MR. KATZ: This is the Advisory 

16 Board on Radiation and Worker Health 

17 Procedures Review Subcommittee, and we're 

18 reconvening, after a lunch break, and Wanda, 

19 it's your agenda. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: I don't think we'll 

21 have too much material to try to cover this 

22 afternoon, with the exception of the new set 

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1 up of two-pagers that we have. 

2 But the first item we have on our 

3 printed agenda is the overarching issues. 

4 At our last meeting, we had quite a 

5 discussion about whether or not we were going 

6 to attempt to be the body that would keep 

7 track of what was going on, and our final word 

8 was that NIOSH was going to talk to Dr. Neton 

9 about it and have some internal discussions, 

10 and the action item is asking for a report on 

11 the result of those discussions. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we haven't 

13 gotten terribly far with it. We agree that, 

14 you know, we, NIOSH, are the keeper, you know, 

15 of making sure that the list is compiled and 

16 that -- and that nothing has dropped off the 

17 list, and all these things that we called 

18 overarching issues, get addressed. 

19 Our thought was that we could build 

20 into the, you know, the application, the Board 

21 review application, a sort of -- a dummy Work 

22 Group and just call it overarching issues, and 

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1 deposit them there, and we've not done this, 

2 seeing that the progress on the database or on 

3 the application, it's isn't as complete as we 

4 would have hoped. 

5 But there would be a way to 

6 categorize them there, and so, you would have 

7 them conveniently in one place, and be able to 

8 proceed from there, and then whether the Board 

9 decides, or particular Work Groups decide that 

10 there are certain ones that they want to take 

11 on, whether it be this group, the Science 

12 Issues Work Group, then they could be sort re13 allotted from this kind of holding overarching 

14 issues areas, to the appropriate Work Group, 

15 or a Work Group could just decide that we're 

16 going to take on the overarching issues, and 

17 we can work on them, as a body of overarching 

18 issues. 

19 So, it just seemed like that would 

20 be an avenue for keeping track and things like 

21 that, but other than conceptual things like 

22 that, we've not really gotten very much 

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1 farther. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: So, we don't need to 

3 be worrying about setting anything up, at the 

4 time. Eventually, we'll come to some 

5 conclusion. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes, I think 

7 the key -- the time -- to me, the time 

8 consuming part of the set up looks like it's 

9 going to be -- well, once the database is 

10 functioning, is going to be the overarching 

11 issues from the dose reconstruction, because 

12 the search will be a little more laborious. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: And defining them 

14 clearly is probably going to not be easy. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, the -- you 

16 need to bring with you, the original finding. 

17 I mean, Paul, all of these findings, that are 

18 summarized in the databases or matrices, or 

19 however they're summarized, you really have to 

20 rely on the original finding, the full write21 up of it, to really understand the meat of it. 

22 So, we'll have to -- all of that is 

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1 going to have to come along, and we'll try to 

2 make the -- set up a search system for the 

3 meat of the issue, that's not particularly 

4 laborious. 

5 So, that's going to be a little 

6 labor intensive, to get it, the point where 

7 each person, each Member of the Work Group, or 

8 whatever, doesn't have to do all that labor 

9 and searching. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: Especially in view of 

11 the fact that with these issues, most of them 

12 have findings from multiple sources, that will 

13 need to be either all gathered, or combined 

14 into one. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: And I think -- yes, 

16 now, there is a -- in our 10-year program 

17 review, there was a finding, or a suggestion, 

18 thinking in terms of science questions, what 

19 are the decisions that can really be decided 

20 by science, and which ones just have to -- you 

21 know, this science just will not -- the 

22 information will not be available, and where a 

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1 policy decision is simply what's required. 

2 And so, there may be some thought, 

3 you know, that may be a way to approach some 

4 of these things, will there ever be enough 

5 information to provide a convincing position -

6 -

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, if not, what 

8 do you do? 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: -- and if not, if 

10 we -- so, absent that, what will the policy of 

11 the Institute be, in terms of the dealing with 

12 that question? 

13 So, it may kind of wrap some of 

14 that thinking into this. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: How would you like us 

16 to deal personally, with this question here? 

17 Do you want me to continue to keep 

18 it as a 'what's going on' sort of issue? 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I think a report of 

20 this Working Group, until something is a 

21 little more established, might be a worthwhile 

22 item, to keep here, because essentially, that 

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1 keeps the urgency on it, and it's like having 

2 a project meeting for a project. 

3 You know, get everybody in the room 

4 and remind them that hey, you know, this all 

5 has to get accomplished. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: There is something 

7 that has to go on. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: And I addition to 

10 that, it gives us our current list of 

11 overarching issues that helps us, when we 

12 encounter the same thing repeatedly. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Were you 

14 suggesting, Stu, that in the document, that 

15 there be a dummy Work Group, where we can --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, that is my 

17 suggestion. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- put these 

19 things? 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we just put a 

21 dummy Work Group up here in this application. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, and then we 

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1 ask Dr. Melius to appoint a dummy Work Group 

2 and see how many volunteers we get for that. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I'd 

4 automatically be the point of contact. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: I don't think we 

6 should --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, it would be 

8 good to have somewhere to bin these, though, 

9 so that --

10 CHAIR MUNN: It would. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- they were 

12 available, or maybe that is another category, 

13 that overarching issue categories that we --

14 some way to pull it out, readily. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes, if you 

16 make it a status, then you've got the whole 

17 problem of what do you do with it, once you 

18 start to deal with it. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

20 MR. KATZ: I think the Work Group 

21 is a -- makes a lot of sense to do it --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I think so. 

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1 MR. KATZ: -- as that, even if it's 

2 just a virtual --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: A virtual Work 

4 Group. 

5 MR. KATZ: -- a virtual Work Group, 

6 yes. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that could be 

8 more important, that would be a better word 

9 than a dummy Work Group, yes. 

10 MR. KATZ: But I think to make this 

11 go forward, we also need -- whether it's Jim 

12 or somebody, we need a point person to start 

13 collecting the fodder that goes in there, for 

14 each of these issues, and maybe some of it can 

15 come from SC&A, that -- where it's organized 

16 on some of these, or DCAS -- or it's going to 

17 be a joint enterprise. 

18 But pulling together sort of, as 

19 Wanda was saying, all of the material that 

20 relates to that issue, that someone is going 

21 to -- then, one of these groups is going to 

22 thrash out. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, that will be 

2 one our folks, you know, so, that is an 

3 assignment that I'll just have to make. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: I'll carry as an item 

5 that we're expecting a White Paper or some 

6 type of report from NIOSH, to help us 

7 establish a starting point for tracking of 

8 these issues. 

9 MR. KATZ: Yes, but I think this 

10 will sort of dovetail with, again -- the 

11 Science Work Group is meeting soon, relatively 

12 soon, and some -- though their issues are 

13 mostly, if not all, overarching issues, as 

14 well, that cover a lot of the same turf. 

15 So, that will help, sort of congeal 

16 it a little bit, what are the issues, and I 

17 think they will be thinking about what are 

18 their priorities, so that they're not trying 

19 to munch on it all at once. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: I think so. 

21 MR. KATZ: And that will help here, 

22 too, because then it will be, what are the 

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1 priorities for pulling together the fodder, 

2 although -- all the discussion that has 

3 occurred and different venues related to that. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that would be 

5 very helpful, I'm sure. 

6 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: That's good, thank 

8 you. 

9 MR. KATZ: Okay, so, I'll try to be 

10 sort of the tie with the Science Work Group on 

11 this. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Appreciate that, just 

13 appreciate that. 

14 The next item on our list is 

15 unresolved action items. 

16 We have -- I probably owe the 

17 Subcommittee a few words of apology, because I 

18 have outstanding, at least two transfer files 

19 -- actions, and a couple of other things that 

20 I have agreed that I would do, and which need 

21 doing, that are now well over 60 days old, and 

22 I have not gotten to them. 

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1 I am sorry for that. I will get to 

2 them. I just wanted to mention that I have 

3 those myself, and I don't know how many others 

4 are out there, that may not have been captured 

5 for some reason, in our activities here, and 

6 should be tracked somewhere. 

7 If any of you are aware of 

8 outstanding action items that are beginning to 

9 grow mold and are not appearing on our list, 

10 please don't hesitate to contact me with that 

11 information. 

12 I am really concerned that we not 

13 miss something here, because of a clerical 

14 error on my part, or on someone else's part, 

15 overlooking something we had planned to do. 

16 One of the things that -- which is 

17 -- I guess, unless somebody has something else 

18 to say about that, I will use that as a segue 

19 into our next action item, if anyone has some 

20 thought about unresolved action items, now is 

21 the time, probably to mention it to me. 

22 Otherwise, I will commit to 

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1 somehow, getting actual written information to 

2 the outstanding transfer items, that I have, 

3 to the Chairs of those Work Groups, rather 

4 than just simply assuming that they're going 

5 to proceed with it, especially in light of the 

6 fact that we don't have an easy way to get to 

7 transmit the history to them all, I'll at 

8 least tell them about it, and provide some set 

9 of words for them. 

10 The other, from my standpoint, 

11 serious outstanding item, is the one of our 

12 two-page summaries, where they are and how we 

13 are going to get them onto the -- onto our own 

14 database, getting them up on the web, not on 

15 our database. 

16 I have -- I owe Ted the final 

17 copies of the procedures that we have already 

18 looked at, and that we've agreed to the two19 pagers on, and we do not have any information 

20 yet, so far as I know, about who is going to 

21 be the point of contact at NIOSH, which 

22 respect to putting that set of data up on the 

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1 web. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: That will be Chris 

3 Ellison. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, will it be Chris? 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: And I don't know 

7 whether Chris has taken any actions towards --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: No, you provided us 

9 --

10 CHAIR MUNN: -- thinking about 

11 that. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean, 

13 thinking about it? We've thought about it, a 

14 little bit. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, I will see to it 

16 that Chris gets the information to Ted, and 

17 Chris will get the information. 

18 Now, the thing that is bothering me 

19 most is the 13 two-pagers, which we've looked 

20 at and beaten with some degree of efficiency, 

21 couple of meetings ago, and which I agreed to 

22 take home, clean up, get out to you in 

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1 finalized form for your approval, before we 

2 submitted them to the full Board for their 

3 approval. 

4 Frankly, it's been more of a -- I 

5 started that a couple of times, and each time, 

6 have had formatting problems with my computer, 

7 but that is no real excuse. 

8 My question for you is whether or 

9 not my failure to get these out in a timely 

10 manner is holding up the train anywhere else? 

11 Am I affecting anyone else's workload or 

12 negatively impacting the work of the Board, in 

13 any way, by not getting these out? 

14 MR. KATZ: Well, help my memory, 

15 because I thought these were all sent to the 

16 full Board, as well as the Subcommittee, for 

17 their opportunity to comment. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: We will, but we will -

19 - we sent them to the full Board --

20 MR. KATZ: No, no, I'm saying, so, 

21 for their -- let me just -- so, what I thought 

22 is, they would have the opportunity to 

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1 comment, as well as the Subcommittee, and then 

2 the Subcommittee would finish them, but I 

3 don't know that the Board needs to approve 

4 them. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, we agreed that 

6 --

7 MR. KATZ: That's not -- we agreed 

8 that they would --

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: We agreed, the 

10 Board wouldn't -- you know, need to approve 

11 them. 

12 MR. KATZ: Right. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: But if they had 

14 comments, they could. 

15 MR. KATZ: Right, exactly. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: In other words, it 

17 would be distributed, but --

18 MR. KATZ: So, what is --

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- but it would be 

20 for us to close them out, or do. 

21 MR. KATZ: So, the Subcommittee, 

22 once you're good, you don't need Board 

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1 approval. They get posted. That's the point 

2 when they get posted. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: All right, we have not 

4 -- the Board has commented on the other 13, 

5 but I haven't cleaned them up. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: The first set. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, the first --

8 well, yes. 

9 MR. KATZ: Right. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: The first six, and the 

11 13, they've commented. I only received -- we 

12 only received comments from Dr. Richardson, 

13 and that's all. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: But we -- and we 

16 discussed those, in our Subcommittee meeting, 

17 and agreed some of them were going to be 

18 incorporated and some of them, we opted not to 

19 deal with, but I have not gotten the clear --

20 the cleaned up copies back to you. 

21 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: And I just wanted to 

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1 make sure I wasn't holding anything up. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm not even sure, 

3 do we need to see the clean copies, again? 

4 We've agreed to the changes. I think once you 

5 clean them up, they should be posted, right? 

6 MR. KATZ: We post them, yes, and 

7 be done with them. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: All right. 

9 DR. MAURO: And once they're 

10 posted, I mean, just as an observation, you 

11 know, not everyone can get the things all the 

12 time, and maybe once they're posted, that 

13 doesn't mean they can't be revised. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, if there is a 

15 major --

16 DR. MAURO: If anybody has a 

17 problem, right, so, it's not that it is 

18 anything urgent --

19 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: There was one extra 

21 step, that I -- it occurred to me, we have not 

22 taken it in any of our deliberations, and that 

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1 might be wise to do. 

2 At no point in this process, have I 

3 personally gone back and checked the findings 

4 that we list on our two-page document, against 

5 the original set of findings. I have not done 

6 that. 

7 And so, since I haven't done that, 

8 and I doubt anyone in NIOSH has done that, 

9 then what we have here is a document, which 

10 SC&A has put together for this Subcommittee, 

11 and has -- which has not been checked against 

12 the original document, to be certain of its 

13 accuracy. 

14 In my view, that is one step that 

15 we should incorporate, into our process, in 

16 some way, simply to make sure that we're not 

17 missing something, before it goes out. 

18 MR. KATZ: Right. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, John? 

20 DR. MAURO: And I agree, that would 

21 be ideal, but until we're able to sort the 

22 history, and I'm not sure if it's there or not 

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1 Steve --

2 MR. MARSCHKE: You can --

3 DR. MAURO: You can sort the 

4 history and quickly verify --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, if you know 

6 what procedure you're looking at, like if 

7 you're looking at OTIB-25, you can pull up 

8 OTIB-25, open it up and look at all the 

9 history associated with it. 

10 DR. MAURO: And see the whole 

11 history? 

12 MR. KATZ: But my suggestion is 

13 that you post these, just sort of like we post 

14 transcripts, before we certify them. Once 

15 they're PA cleared, post these, because I 

16 guess, I think so much time can go by. 

17 Let's post these. You can -- down 

18 the road, you can look, you can do that and if 

19 you have revisions, we can make revisions. In 

20 the meantime, they're up there and people 

21 start getting the advantage of this work, 

22 because I'm really -- I just think time, the 

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1 river keeps flowing. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: It does. 

3 MR. KATZ: And there are a lot of 

4 them. There is, you know, approximately 50 of 

5 them. So, I would post them, and then if 

6 people want to take the initiative to do that 

7 cross-checking and so on, they can do that and 

8 they can be updated, just like John says, 

9 they're not frozen, just because they're up 

10 there. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: And they aren't the 

12 actual actions of official --

13 MR. KATZ: No, right, it's just a 

14 summary for the public. 

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Just the public is 

16 going to --

17 CHAIR MUNN: No, we said they were 

18 summaries. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: They were 

20 summaries, number one. Number two, I think we 

21 agreed that we wouldn't put up all the 

22 findings, wording of all the findings --

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1 CHAIR MUNN: That is correct. 

2 MR. KATZ: No, we don't. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Correct, we don't. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: And we kind of 

5 consolidated, and so, to do it on a one-to-one 

6 basis may be a little time consuming, and if -

7 - it's almost like okay, if you didn't 

8 expressly point out one of the particular 

9 findings, is that a big deal? 

10 I mean, it's sort of the thrust of 

11 it, it's explaining, here is what we did. 

12 Here is how it was resolved, and I am -- I 

13 think it's fine, to have quality control, if 

14 this is a critical document, or some 

15 particular actions, but it isn't. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: No, it isn't, no. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: And it's just a 

18 description. It's a brief description of what 

19 we did, and if somebody says, "Well, wait a 

20 minute, you didn't mention this finding," and 

21 I suppose we could go back, but I mean, I 

22 don't think we mentioned every finding, did 

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1 we? 

2 CHAIR MUNN: No. 

3 DR. MAURO: No, and it would be 

4 more cumbersome, unnecessarily. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: I thought we did 

6 mention all the findings, because that is one 

7 of the --

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, no, we --

9 MR. KATZ: No, we consolidated it 

10 quite a bit. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, the document 

12 said three of the findings --

13 CHAIR MUNN: Are the same thing, 

14 yes. 

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: They're similar, 

16 yes. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: But then, we say that 

18 in the write-up. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: We said that we 

21 consolidated them. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Maybe we did. 

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1 MR. KATZ: We did. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, then that is --

3 that helps clarify for me. If we're -- if 

4 you're not concerned about double -- about 

5 checking it, after we're done, then that is 

6 okay. 

7 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: There is no question, 

9 we certainly have plenty of eyes given an 

10 opportunity to look at it. 

11 Now, I had asked that you take a 

12 look at all of the 17 new procedures, that 

13 have been sent out to us, before I went ahead 

14 and sent them to the whole Board. 

15 The reason I did that is to see if 

16 your take on what we have here is the same as 

17 mine. 

18 The first thing I want to say is, I 

19 really appreciate the work that has been done 

20 on getting these honed down to the place where 

21 they are. 

22 The brevity is wonderful. The 

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1 format is, I think, quite -- is appropriate, 

2 and in most cases, they are -- everything that 

3 I saw, out of these 17, are better than 90 

4 percent ready to go. 

5 In looking at them, however, I 

6 found a couple of things. One, we still have 

7 several uses of acronyms, where I feel 

8 personally that we should not use them. 

9 I don't think we should use the 

10 acronyms for anything, other than the agency 

11 names which occur repeatedly, or for some very 

12 unusual things, like IREP, you know, but even 

13 IREP, I don't think we should use, if we can -

14 - if we possibly have the link to go ahead and 

15 spell it out. 

16 For example, in these -- in this 

17 set, several times, QA is used. It's 

18 identified, but it's used. I don't think we 

19 should say QA. I think we should say quality 

20 assurance, because the fewer acronyms, the 

21 better. 

22 My only other complaint with any of 

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1 this is some of the language. The language is 

2 still at too high a level, in many cases. 

3 For example, just give you a couple 

4 of things for me. 

5 In OTIB-35, which was in this new 

6 group that we had, finding three talks about 

7 default assumptions throughout the complex. 

8 Now, everybody sitting at this 

9 table knows what default assumptions are, 

10 knows what default means and understands what 

11 a complex is. 

12 But I question whether the average 

13 citizen or the average claimant looking at 

14 this, would know that. 

15 If our target audience is indeed, 

16 the average citizen and the average claimant, 

17 and our assumption is that not all folks are 

18 college educated, then these are the kinds of 

19 words that I think we're going to have to find 

20 a way about -- for -- and other -- in OTIB-35, 

21 also, it refers to -- the final paragraph 

22 mentions in abeyance, something to be held in 

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1 abeyance. 

2 In abeyance means something to us, 

3 but in abeyance often may not mean something 

4 to somebody else. 

5 We talk in several spots, we talk -

6 - we use the word surrogate, and even though 

7 there is an attempt to try to explain what 

8 surrogate is, I don't think it's done very 

9 well. 

10 It talks about gamma radiation as 

11 being electro-magnetic type of radiation. I'm 

12 not at all sure of that. 

13 The bottom line here is, to me, the 

14 language still needs some simplification work. 

15 Was that a feeling that came from anybody 

16 else? 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have the same 

18 feeling in -- let me give you an example. 

19 It's just -- this is the -- I 

20 pulled this one up because I think it's a good 

21 example. 

22 This is maximum internal dose 

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1 estimates for Savannah River Site claims. 

2 It's OTIB-0001, and the resolution -- oh, and 

3 where it talks -- it talks about, the 

4 following issues are still under review, and 

5 it -- basically, it's quoting NIOSH, which is 

6 why it's so confusing. 

7 Here is what it says. Now, I'm 

8 thinking of somebody in the public reading 

9 this. 

10 "NIOSH responded to finding 10 by 

11 stating that since this procedure provides 

12 guidance for inner -- for intentionally over13 estimating internal exposures to workers with 

14 little or not potential for such exposure, any 

15 intake value that is high based on site 

16 experience would suffice." 

17 

18 sentence 

19 "What?" 

20 

21 

It seems to me, that that's a tough 

for somebody in public to say, 

CHAIR MUNN: Yes, you know --

MEMBER ZIEMER: And so, somehow, we 

have to -- and it's not an easy thing, but 

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1 it's -- it's a matter of distilling that down. 

2 It doesn't even really have to explain it in 

3 detail, you know what I'm saying? 

4 DR. MAURO: There is so much 

5 context. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I know. 

7 DR. MAURO: That surrounds that. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think there is. 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, I think those 

11 are the challenges. Most of the statements in 

12 this one are very brief, and so, if they're 

13 brief, and you get rid of any acronyms, then 

14 we're good. 

15 So, overall, this one is pretty 

16 good. I mean, the findings are all pretty 

17 brief, and but then we get a statement like 

18 that, and you guys are just stating what they 

19 said they're going to do, but I think it looks 

20 like it's a quote, and that is where we run 

21 into terrible, when we quote some of these 

22 things. 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, well, and you 

2 know, we talk about ambient, we've used 

3 tertiary. We've used spontaneous fission. 

4 Well, that is all perfectly 

5 accurate, all very exact, but it's a concern 

6 to me, and frankly, when I looked at tertiary, 

7 I thought, "Okay, and what would I say, 

8 instead of that?" You know, there is no --

9 I'm not going to be able to define a single 

10 word --

11 DR. MAURO: If you read it -- if 

12 you're ready to give up precision, for the 

13 sake of clarity, than that is a sacrifice that 

14 we have to all agree to make, because if you 

15 want to talk about fission, you may not even 

16 want to use the word fission, never mind 

17 tertiary fission or --

18 CHAIR MUNN: Exactly. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think that is 

20 exactly right, I mean, these kind of 

21 documents, what is the level your write to for 

22 the general public? Is it sixth grade? 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Eighth -- sixth to 

2 eighth grade. 

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. 

4 DR. MAURO: So, plus we have atom 

5 splitting? 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Good luck. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, good luck. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, but it doesn't 

10 --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: It's hard to write 

12 at 12. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: I know. 

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: I know. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Because I was --

16 just did a reader on a couple of these things, 

17 and I'm sure if it's at 14, now, in terms of 

18 grade level reading. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Scary. 

20 MR. KATZ: Just leave out detail, 

21 is usually the best solution. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, yes, the --

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1 to get by, you know, the particular reader, 

2 you know, this thing that -- the particular 

3 tool I'm using, you use few syllables and 

4 short sentences. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, well, when we 

6 say the TIB provides a methodology, for 

7 formulating reasonable over-estimating 

8 assumptions, that is --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: You're gone. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: That is just -- you've 

11 lost them. 

12 DR. MAURO: You've lost them. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

14 DR. MAURO: So, how do you say 

15 that, to a 12-year old? 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: The Bulletin 

17 provides a way for --

18 DR. MAURO: Simplifying the 

19 calculations. 

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- for simplifying 

21 the calculations for workers who likely would 

22 not be compensated. It's not -- it just --

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1 okay, no technical terms. They're not going 

2 to -- all right, a methodology, for 

3 formulating -- people don't use those words. 

4 DR. MAURO: Right, yes. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. 

6 DR. MAURO: What will happen is, 

7 very often, and by the way, I like that, I 

8 like that we're communicating to them. 

9 The thing is, very often, the very 

10 procedure itself, is within a context that 

11 cannot be understood. 

12 In other words, we're -- you know 

13 what I mean? We're in -- the procedure itself 

14 is embedded in an overall larger context, like 

15 the surrogate data context, and without 

16 understanding the larger context, you really 

17 can't even talk about it. 

18 So, I mean, it's a challenge, don't 

19 get me wrong, but certainly, it can be done. 

20 I have to admit, I know working a 

21 little bit with Steve Ostrow and -- we all 

22 agreed, yes, we could -- we thought we could 

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223 

1 do it, and the reality is, maybe we -- you 

2 know, it's -- to go where we --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, but that is --

4 DR. MAURO: -- where you want to go 

5 is a big one, it's a big sea change. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: We already have 

7 several paragraphs, which are intended -- they 

8 don't have anything to do with the procedure. 

9 They're intended to describe to people, what 

10 all of this means. 

11 DR. MAURO: For them, it's good. 

12 For -- yes, and the --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: It works, fine. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: That's fine, then work 

15 on that in three meetings. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, and I haven't 

17 -- I haven't had a chance to mark these all 

18 up, but that overall impression is -- there is 

19 -- they're a mix of really good and --

20 DR. MAURO: And then you get hit 

21 with something. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, it's 

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1 correct, but hard to --

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, now, this is the 

3 reason why put on the agenda, I put our 

4 discussion of this, looking at the new two5 pagers ahead of our item for discussion, the 

6 review methods. 

7 I know what we agreed our review 

8 methods were going to be, but in a case like 

9 this one, where we know that this group of 17, 

10 as with the group of 13 before them, does not 

11 incorporate quite what we want to do. 

12 Would it not be wiser for some of 

13 us to take a look -- to make some of these --

14 at least some of these changes that we have, 

15 on what we have here, before we send it to the 

16 Board, rather than --

17 MR. KATZ: Not to the Board, to the 

18 -- oh, I see what you're saying, for the new 

19 set? 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, yes. 

21 MR. KATZ: I don't know whether 

22 that matters. Are there any other -- because 

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225 
 

1 you're not going to get that much input from 

2 the rest of the Board, anyway. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: No, I don't think we 

4 are, either. 

5 MR. KATZ: I don't think that 

6 really matters. 

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Maybe what to do is 

8 to go ahead and send it out to the Board, and 

9 that way, we're not revising it and then 

10 revising it again. 

11 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: We give them a 

13 deadline, then we'll take their input and then 

14 we'll go through it and add our changes to it, 

15 or something like that. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: Now, there are several 

17 of these that I feel we need to --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think several 

19 Board Members probably will conscientiously 

20 review these, like David did, and that is very 

21 helpful. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is helpful. 

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226 
 

1 No, there is no question about that. 

2 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry to interrupt. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: No, go ahead. 

4 DR. MAURO: When these are put up, 

5 on the public web, to help the public 

6 understand what we might have done to 

7 accomplish this on the Subcommittee, could we 

8 not solicit from them, and -- that is, to let 

9 them -- almost part of the introduction. 

10 Now, we'd like feedback from them, 

11 whether or not these are clear, and does it 

12 raise more questions than answers? You know, 

13 in other words, almost like engage them in the 

14 process, because what we're struggling with 

15 here is our ability to visualize whether we 

16 think they would be comfortable with it, and 

17 we certainly should do that. 

18 But why can't we engage them and 

19 have an opportunity for them to feedback on 

20 whether or not they understood, you know, they 

21 can comment on it, any aspects of these that 

22 are difficult to understand. 

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1 I don't know, just a thought, so, 

2 that it becomes a positive force of outreach, 

3 in a way, to try to engage the public and to 

4 make sure that they understand it, and get 

5 their feelings, because we have to admit to 

6 ourselves, no matter how hard we try, we're 

7 not going to be 100 percent effective in 

8 communicating the way we'd like to 

9 communicate. 

10 I'm just trying to turn a negative 

11 into a positive. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: I hear what you're 

13 saying. My knee-jerk reaction is simply, if 

14 we ask for that, then what we are going to 

15 get, I suspect, is a great deal of feedback 

16 from the better educated component of the 

17 reader who would like us to be more specific, 

18 when we have spent a great deal of time trying 

19 to not do that. 

20 DR. MAURO: Yes, do the same thing. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: We're trying to make 

22 sure that we cover as broad an audience as we 

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228 
 

1 can, and my guess is, the feedback from those 

2 who follow what we're doing --

3 DR. MAURO: And then two pages is 

4 not going to work anymore. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: Is not going to do it. 

6 DR. MAURO: It's not going to work. 

7 You're very right. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, okay. So, I, 

9 personally, would not think that would be a 

10 good way to go, but it's worth discussion, if 

11 anyone else feels they want to weigh in on 

12 that. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, you can 

14 always have a general statement, in the 

15 introduction of this whole thing, on the 

16 website, that if individuals have questions 

17 pertaining to the information in any of the 

18 documents, that they can, you know, contact 

19 somebody. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: Well, you know, we --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Contact Ted. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: We wrote the cover 

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229 
 

1 page, long ago. The cover page is ready to 

2 go. 

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, no, yes. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: They send in 

5 comments to the inbox. We've got our inbox, 

6 although it's gone on the website, or on the 

7 host. I mean, it's the Board's website, or 

8 the Board's pages, but it's our hosted 

9 website. 

10 So, we'll just take it, you know, 

11 have them send it to us. We can split the 

12 comments, if they would like it. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I'm sort of 

14 trying to steer away from --

15 CHAIR MUNN: Actually soliciting. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- actually 

17 soliciting the comments, as opposed to making 

18 comments -- or making the opportunity 

19 available. If you have questions or comments 

20 on any of these, please let us know, without 

21 saying, "We want to find out if you think 

22 we've made this understandable or not." 

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1 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: All right. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, I suppose 

5 if somebody doesn't quite --

6 DR. MAURO: They'll do it anyway. 

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- know what this 

8 says, they would ask, but particularly, if 

9 it's someone from that site or a petitioner, 

10 or something like that. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: All right, then I am 

12 going to go to work on the 13 that I was 

13 supposed to have completed for you, two months 

14 ago, and I will go ahead and send these, or 

15 ask Ted to send these to all Board Members. 

16 

17 

18 that --

19 

20 

21 confused. 

22 sending on? 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. KATZ: Sure. 

CHAIR MUNN: With the understanding 

MEMBER ZIEMER: And request the --

MR. KATZ: So, I'm a little 

So, this is a batch of 17 that I'm 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is it just 17 or 

3 15? 

4 CHAIR MUNN: It's 17. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Have I got the 

6 wrong batch? 

7 CHAIR MUNN: I believe it's 17. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it's the group 

9 that Nancy sent on August 2nd. Is that right? 

10 August 2nd. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: One, two, three, four, 

12 five, six. 

13 MR. KATZ: But then there is some 

14 missing. 

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Wait a minute, I 

16 got some --

17 CHAIR MUNN: Thirteen, 14, 15, 16, 

18 17, yes. 

19 MR. KATZ: Okay, so, I'm confused 

20 about numbers, here. So, we have --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: How many is that? 

22 MR. KATZ: A batch of six. 

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232 
 

1 MR. HINNEFELD: August 2nd. 

2 MR. KATZ: Okay, I can certainly 

3 forward the August 2nd to the Board, and I'll 

4 do that. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: That is what it is. 

6 MR. KATZ: And we have a batch of 

7 six. We have a batch a 13, a batch of 17, 

8 seems like we're missing a batch. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: No. 

10 MR. KATZ: Okay, but that would be 

11 -- that means we have a total of 36? 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

13 DR. MAURO: I thought we had more. 

14 MR. KATZ: But according to SC&A, 

15 because I've had discussion with SC&A about 

16 these things, we have either 49 or 51, that 

17 came up with different counts, but in that 

18 ballpark. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: That's fine. 

20 MR. KATZ: So, you don't need to do 

21 that -- it's just, the question is, where is 

22 the -- I'll have to look and see where the 

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233 
 

1 missing batch is. 

2 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

3 MR. KATZ: There is more. We're 

4 missing a batch from here, is all I am saying. 

5 You don't need to do it, now. 

6 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

7 MR. KATZ: But I know we're missing 

8 a batch, because I know I was -- my count was 

9 up to like 49, but so, we had this little --

10 we were off by a couple, between me and Steve 

11 Ostrow, as to how many there are. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, you know, 

13 Nancy explains, in the kind of -- in the --

14 the original list had 53, and three of them 

15 were not -- one of them was not -- two of them 

16 were not closed and one was a duplicate. 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to 50. 

to 50. 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. KATZ: So, that brings it down 

MR. MARSCHKE: That brings it down 

MR. KATZ: Right. 

MR. MARSCHKE: And you're talking 

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234 
 

1 about 49. 

2 MR. KATZ: Yes, that is the 49. 

3 DR. MAURO: And now, there are 37, 

4 here, you said, right? 

5 MR. KATZ: But this is only 36, 

6 right. 

7 MR. MARSCHKE: This is only 36. 

8 MR. KATZ: So, there is a batch 

9 that is missing. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: There is another 

11 batch, obviously. 

12 MR. KATZ: There is a batch 

13 floating around, that somehow is --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, there was 15 

15 of them sent out on the 9th of July. 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: So, that would make 

17 51. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: The 9th of July, 

19 I've got 15 from Nancy. 

20 MR. KATZ: Fifteen? 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, 15, the 

22 subject is 'transmittal of 15'. 

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1 MR. KATZ: Right. 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Short summaries, and 

3 then the next one is when? 

4 CHAIR MUNN: It must be the 13 that 

5 I was talking about. 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: The 17 were on 

7 August 2nd. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: August 2nd? 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Can you tell from 

10 Nancy's, now, that you're looking at, whether 

11 that includes OTIB-4, 28, 30? Is that it? 

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Let's see here. 

13 OTIB-1, OTIB-2, OTIB-5, 6, 7 and 10, 17, 19, 

14 20, 23, those are the OTIB's on that one. 

15 Then there is some PROC-17 and 

16 PROC-22. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: I think we're talking 

18 about the same group. 

19 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: And I just had my 

21 numbers wrong. If I said 13, and there is 15, 

22 then it's 15. 

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1 MR. KATZ: Okay, but you're still 

2 missing a batch, Wanda, is what I am saying. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: You think so? 

4 MR. KATZ: Yes, because 36 or 38, 

5 whatever it might be, is not in the ballpark 

6 of 50. 

7 So, anyway, I'll track these down. 

8 I think somehow there is --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I think I've got 

10 it. There is a message from Nancy, from 

11 January 3rd. 

12 MR. KATZ: Right, January 3rd, 

13 there is one batch. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: It says there are 

15 12 in that batch. 

16 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: And it says five 

18 were sent previously, four were -- it said 

19 four were submitted on September 13, 2010. One 

20 was submitted on September 29, 2010 and 12 are 

21 submitted on this message, which is January 1st 

22 -- January 3rd of 2011. There are 15 on July 

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1 9th, and 17 on August 2nd. So, that is 32 --

2 44, that is 49. 

3 MR. KATZ: That was my number. 

4 That was my count. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

6 DR. MAURO: We got it. 

7 MR. KATZ: That was my count. So, 

8 I have all those same records. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: All right, so, I'll go 

10 back to that January transmittal and see if I 

11 have missed something in there. 

12 MR. KATZ: Okay, in any event, my 

13 charge will be to send a batch to the full 

14 Board. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

16 MR. KATZ: Whatever the batch is 

17 that they haven't received. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: Whatever the batch is, 

19 that they haven't received, yes. Very good. 

20 Then, I will -- I'll go ahead and start some 

21 work on these myself, and get the one batch 

22 that I have had some comment on, to get back 

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1 to you, and that we've worked on before. That 

2 is my job. 

3 Now, that comes to the end of what 

4 I have listed for today's agenda, with the 

5 exception of any administrative things that we 

6 need to do. 

7 Does anyone else have any technical 

8 item or work item to add to the agenda today? 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I would like to 

10 mention -- I would like to mention one thing, 

11 and I don't know if it's -- how you want to 

12 characterize it. 

13 But I sent out an email a couple of 

14 days ago, regarding the fact that Rose has 

15 gone through -- now that the database, or the 

16 Board review system is up and running, I asked 

17 Rose to go through the minutes of the meetings 

18 from the last handful, maybe three or four 

19 Subcommittee meetings, and update the database 

20 to reflect changes that were made during those 

21 meetings. 

22 She has done that, and so, I think 

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1 you know, NIOSH and the Subcommittee may want 

2 to -- and there was an email that I sent out a 

3 couple of days ago, which gave the notes that 

4 Rose put together, describing what she did and 

5 where she did it and linking the database back 

6 to the transcripts and so on and so forth. 

7 Again, NIOSH and the Subcommittee 

8 may want to double-check that, to see that 

9 they agree with the changes that were made to 

10 the database, and you know, basically concur 

11 with what SC&A has done to bring the database 

12 in line with the decisions that were made, 

13 during the time period when the database was 

14 unavailable. 

15 MR. KATZ: Who is Rose? 

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Rose? 

17 DR. MAURO: She is a member of our 

18 -- Gogliotti. She is a member of our -- she 

19 is a full-time employee out of our Vienna 

20 office. 

21 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

22 DR. MAURO: Gogliotti. 

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1 MR. KATZ: What is her last name? 

2 DR. MAURO: Rose Gogliotti. 

3 MR. KATZ: Gogliotti, okay. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I'll get it up here 

5 in a minute for you. 

6 MR. KATZ: Okay, thanks. 

7 DR. MAURO: I have an item that I 

8 was thinking about. 

9 When we originally grabbed the 50 

10 or so procedures, they were grabbed because 

11 those were the 50 that were done. 

12 MR. KATZ: Right. 

13 DR. MAURO: Right, that was about a 

14 year and a half ago or so. 

15 MR. KATZ: I think. 

16 DR. MAURO: We don't know if more 

17 have been completed. I guess we don't know, 

18 since then, we've completed another three, 10, 

19 20, I don't know. I know there were about 103 

20 all together, and the question is, are there 

21 others that have been completed, and I guess 

22 it would be nice to know, have others been 

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1 completed since then? 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: There is -- you 

3 guys have access to -- boy, I don't know if 

4 you've got this, or not. 

5 Yes, there is a way to know. I 

6 can't know right now, but -- there are -- the 

7 entire list of documents is published. So, 

8 there are a couple of things we can include in 

9 this publication spot. 

10 Everybody is used to looking at one 

11 place, so, I hate to move it somewhere else, 

12 but we could duplicate it on the O-drive. 

13 DR. MAURO: Well, if we can get 

14 that --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Or we could look at 

16 the --

17 DR. MAURO: -- a summary table, 

18 because when we originally -- I think, when we 

19 originally came up with our listing of 50, the 

20 starting point was that summary level table, 

21 that said we have these many that -- you know, 

22 wouldn't that be our doorway? 

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1 I mean, once that is in place 

2 again, would that be our doorway to 

3 identifying -- do we have additional -- I'm 

4 not sure. 

5 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm not sure we need 

6 to go to that summary. I mean, if this total 

7 active findings column is working, correctly -

8 -

9 DR. MAURO: That should do it. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: -- that should do 

11 it, right there. 

12 DR. MAURO: Yes, right, absolutely 

13 right. 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: So, I mean, I guess 

15 it's a question, and the thing is, just hold 

16 on for a little bit. 

17 DR. MAURO: Sit tight. 

18 MR. MARSCHKE: And you know, when 

19 we get this thing here working, it will be 

20 able to do that, in a snap. Otherwise, it's -

21 -

22 DR. MAURO: Got you. 

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: -- going to be a 

2 difficult task to do. 

3 DR. MAURO: All right. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we would want 

5 to make sure -- it would be like the 

6 unassigned queue in this, because that would 

7 be a Technical Document that has been 

8 published, that no one has looked at. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, that is 

10 another thing. You know, if you have 

11 Technical Documents, or like we were talking 

12 about this morning, you have a revision to a 

13 document, if it's a major revision that you 

14 want SC&A or --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: No, we don't ever 

16 want SC&A to review everything. What we will 

17 inform the Board of is what Technical 

18 Documents have been written, and the Board can 

19 make what assignments --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Because we haven't 

21 reviewed -- we haven't gotten a -- we haven't 

22 really done that, because we were talking at 

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1 lunch time, and we haven't done many procedure 

2 reviews in the last six months or so. So, I 

3 don't know, you know, it's like -- you know, I 

4 guess most of the Technical Documents, I 

5 think, have already gone under review. 

6 So, I think it's mostly an issue 

7 of, has there been a major revision to 

8 something or --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and there may 

10 be some new stuff around. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: And there may be 

12 some new stuff, which --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the 

14 application is designed to have -- you know, 

15 if you just go on the -- the landing page, if 

16 you go to Board review instead of picking 

17 documents under Board review, which brings up 

18 everything, there is another selection. 

19 It says 'unassigned queue', and 

20 that just means documents haven't been 

21 assigned to any Work Group, to review. 

22 So, that -- the design idea is that 

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1 will include, you know, when we publish a 

2 document, it will go --

3 CHAIR MUNN: It will go in our 

4 queue. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: -- it will go to be 

6 written to that unassigned queue, and then 

7 periodically, the Board can review the 

8 unassigned queue, to determine of there are 

9 Technical Documents that warrant review, and 

10 make the tasking. 

11 So, Brant, that would be another 

12 thing to do in the meantime, since that is not 

13 the highest priority thing that we want to fix 

14 on the database, we'll come up with the list 

15 of -- we can do this by date. We can make the 

16 table of contents available to you, not just 

17 the table of contents. I would think we could 

18 provide access to the whole set. 

19 I mean, when I look on my -- it's 

20 part of what we call the K-drive, that you 

21 guys can't see, I can click on -- I have to 

22 look at either a DCAS document or an ORAU 

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1 document, have to make that selection first, 

2 and then I have to select the kind of document 

3 I'm looking for, whether it's a TIB or a TBD 

4 or procedure, and I get the entirety of the 

5 published -- current published active 

6 documents. 

7 And so, it comes up by -- it's got 

8 a document number and then the title, and I 

9 would think it has the date. I can look in a 

10 minute and let you know if it has the date 

11 prepared. 

12 So, one way or another, we'll try 

13 to get an inventory of the documents. 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Even using this, you 

15 know, Board review system, here, you can click 

16 on again, total findings. 

17 There is a bunch of documents in 

18 here. There is 214 documents and as we talked 

19 this morning, we haven't looked. We only 

20 looked at about 105 of them. 

21 So, there is about 100 documents in 

22 there, which you know, SC&A has not looked at, 

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1 and probably don't need to look at. 

2 DR. MAURO: And by choice. 

3 MR. MARSCHKE: The majority of 

4 then, they probably don't need. 

5 MR. KATZ: But a lot of them, too, 

6 I think are TBD's and things that get looked 

7 at by other Work Groups. They're not captured 

8 by this, because this is sort of procedure 

9 oriented. 

10 But they will have been looked at, 

11 a lot of them. A lot of them will have gotten 

12 mini Site Profile reviews from John or others, 

13 because they're AWE's, and --

14 DR. MAURO: 

15 MR. KATZ: 

16 numbers that --

17 

18 that. 

19 

20 here. 

21 

DR. MAURO: 

MR. KATZ: 

DR. MAURO: 

Yes, many of them. 

That is part of the 

Okay, I didn't realize 

-- that it's showing in 

So, there is much more 

than just procedures in here? 

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1 MR. KATZ: Yes, that's the thing, 

2 is that they're not all procedures. It's 

3 probably done, the vast majority, if not all, 

4 the procedures, but then they're site 

5 specific. 

6 DR. MAURO: Because we've been 

7 binning things, in a way that really started 

8 at the beginning of our contract, which goes 

9 back seven or eight years now, where we made a 

10 separation between Site Profiles and 

11 procedures, and then there are procedures that 

12 are generic and there are procedures that are 

13 really extensions of a Site Profile. 

14 What happens is, there are these 

15 bins. The bin we've been working in here, 

16 really is the bin that we've been calling 

17 procedures, but it sounds like that this 

18 particular data summary captures a lot more 

19 than just the procedures. 

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Go ahead. 

21 DR. ULSH: Yes, it was our 

22 intention to -- once this procedures database 

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1 was up and running, to load all NIOSH 

2 documents in here, all of them, and then if 

3 they haven't been assigned to a particular 

4 one, it would show up in the unassigned queue 

5 and you guys could select from there. 

6 DR. MAURO: I think that is -- I 

7 mean, having that is really getting -- really 

8 regrouping and doing it the right way. That 

9 is what you're really saying. 

10 In the process of regrouping, let's 

11 regroup in a way that we really throw a net 

12 over the whole story, which is a good idea, 

13 but of course, you catch that, doing that, you 

14 catch us in midstream, operating really on a 

15 subset of that, and trying to track that 

16 subset, because that is really where we are 

17 right now. 

18 What we're trying to do is track a 

19 subset of your big picture --

20 CHAIR MUNN: And from the 

21 Subcommittee's point of view, you're binning 

22 was absolutely correct. Remember, the initial 

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1 -- the original name of this Subcommittee was 

2 Subcommittee for Tracking SC&A Procedure 

3 Reviews. That is what our name was, or our 

4 tentative name, before we became just 

5 Subcommittee on Procedures, Procedures 

6 Subcommittee. 

7 So, we have not had, as a part of 

8 our charter, the -- either the need or the 

9 desire to look at anything other than reviews 

10 SC&A has made of NIOSH procedures. 

11 DR. MAURO: But I think the 

12 ambitious program that you overtook, is well 

13 taken, and all we have to be cognizant of is 

14 that while you're building this larger 

15 framework, that we, we, can still operate 

16 within a subdivision of that framework, so, 

17 that we can do the things that we're mandated 

18 to do. 

19 But that bigger framework is a 

20 great thing to have. 

21 DR. ULSH: Yes, I mean, the long 

22 term objective of this application was, like 

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1 we talked about earlier, for other Work Groups 

2 and Subcommittees to use this. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

4 DR. ULSH: So, for instance, the 

5 Rocky Flats TBD would be -- come to the Rocky 

6 Flats Working Group. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: Right. 

8 DR. MAURO: Right. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: But for the time 

10 being, binning it under unassigned queue would 

11 be marvelous, from my point of view. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: But right now, 

13 there --

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Right now, there is 

15 nothing in the unassigned queue. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: There is nothing in 

17 the unassigned queue, but everything is in the 

18 documents under review, because like Steve 

19 pointed out, some of these things have zero 

20 findings, and so, you know --

21 MR. MARSCHKE: What I think 

22 happened was, we were complaining, we couldn't 

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1 figure out how to get that -- move documents 

2 from the unassigned queue into the procedures 

3 Subcommittee area. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

5 MR. MARSCHKE: And so, IT people 

6 made it simple for us and they said, "Well, 

7 we'll take everything over and put it into the 

8 procedure Subcommittee," and that basically 

9 allowed me to enter all the PER's that we 

10 talked about this morning --

11 CHAIR MUNN: Which is great. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: -- which I couldn't 

13 do, you know, the last meeting or something, 

14 or two meetings ago, whatever it was. 

15 So, it solved that problem. I 

16 don't know whether it messed something else up 

17 in the process, but so, that is kind of the 

18 history of why all of these documents are 

19 basically over here into the procedure 

20 Subcommittee area, and really, if you look at 

21 the design of the system, they should be in 

22 the unassigned queue, but it's because -- you 

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1 know, I guess operator error, I couldn't 

2 figure -- or operator naivete, I couldn't 

3 figure out how to get the documents from the 

4 unassigned queue, over into the procedure 

5 area. So, they did it for me. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: But can you filter 

7 them back out, now? In other words, under 

8 document type? 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: I can filter out --

10 now, I can filter out -- again, I can't --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: But you can filter 

12 out procedures? 

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I can bring up any 

14 one of these type. I can't really filter out 

15 a document. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: But I can filter in, 

18 you know, there's more to filter in. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, but some of 

20 those can be in an unassigned queue, too, I 

21 suppose. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: And some of these 

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1 are in there, or you can see, for some of 

2 these, they haven't --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Anything with zero 

4 total findings is probably not going to be --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Anything with zero 

6 total findings was not reviewed by -- yes. 

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Couldn't, under 

8 Work Groups, couldn't there be an unassigned 

9 queue there? 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, Paul, our 

11 thought was that unassigned meant it hadn't 

12 been assigned to a Work Group, so, that it was 

13 a document that had been generated, but wasn't 

14 assigned to a Work Group. 

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, but I mean, 

16 under Work Group filter, you got all the Work 

17 Groups, but --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, yes, you can. 

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: But having a 

20 category called unassigned and that tells you 

21 everything else. That is all I was saying. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I guess you 

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1 could. 

2 MR. KATZ: But in reality --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, you're 

4 looking for a way to bin those unassigned 

5 ones. 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, I just searched 

7 twice on it, and basically, they all go to the 

8 tail end, and I really don't care about them. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, okay. 

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Because they don't 

11 add up into the -- you know, the findings 

12 don't really enter in there, at that. 

13 But I am not -- from an operational 

14 point of view, I'm not worried about where we 

15 carry them. 

16 If NIOSH wants to put that back 

17 into, the capability back into the system, to 

18 have documents into the unassigned queue, that 

19 can then be -- and then give us a procedure 

20 for moving them from one to the other, which 

21 is simple enough for me to follow --

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Can you move them 

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1 if they're in a Work Group? 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, you can. That 

3 is the way you move them, and basically, when 

4 you go to the unassigned queue --

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, no, I'm saying 

6 if your Work Group category includes 

7 unassigned queue, then that is just like a 

8 Work Group. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Right. 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: And you can move 

11 things in and out. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, if you can 

14 move them in and out of a Work Group, you can 

15 move it in and out of something else, called 

16 unassigned queue. The computer doesn't know 

17 whether it's unassigned. It's just another 

18 Work Group. 

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, I guess back 

21 to the original question, about what documents 

22 are out there, I believe this is it, at least 

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1 on some date, this should have been the 

2 entirety. 

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Should be 

4 everything. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: So, if you look at 

6 the procedures on here that have -- or the 

7 documents that have zero total findings, that 

8 would be at least a first shot at a population 

9 to look at for things that might be worth 

10 review. 

11 MR. KATZ: Right, although a lot of 

12 them are actually assigned. They were 

13 assigned to Work Groups. They were Work Group 

14 assignments. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: That could very 

16 well be, yes. Anything Site Specific is 

17 probably assigned to a Work Group. 

18 MR. KATZ: Yes, so, what we really 

19 need to do is an accounting of which ones the 

20 Work Groups also have bit into. 

21 Do that, because right now, all we 

22 have in the record of what the procedures has, 

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1 in effect, assigned to a cell. We don't have a 

2 record of what each of the Work Groups has 

3 assigned to a cell and taken on, and if we had 

4 that, then we would know what is left on the 

5 table that nobody has looked at. 

6 DR. MAURO: We just have to get 

7 smart enough to learn how to use this very 

8 popular tool. That is the problem. We've 

9 developed something that is really complete, 

10 and we just have to learn, as a multi-headed 

11 organization, on how to make use of this tool, 

12 and maybe there is some software work that 

13 needs to be done, but it's as much us 

14 learning, as it is --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Can you pull out 

16 things for more than one Work Group 

17 simultaneously, or is it only -- I mean, could 

18 you say, I want to know everything that's in a 

19 Work Group, or --

20 MR. KATZ: Well, the unassigned 

21 queue would give you -- once this is done 

22 properly, inputted properly, with all the Work 

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1 Groups, then your unassigned queue will be 

2 stuff that has not gone to any Work Group. 

3 That will be one batch. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: That will be --

5 Steve was saying that you can't tell -- if you 

6 look at what has -- where there is no findings 

7 for us, on this -- or no, I -- if it's not 

8 been assigned to us, yet, but it is somewhere 

9 else, can you pull those out? 

10 DR. MAURO: There are two things 

11 going on, here. There are -- I mean, where 

12 there is a zero and a zero, it could be that 

13 that is a TBD or an AWE that has -- is active, 

14 someone is working on it. 

15 But it's sitting in here, as if it 

16 has been unassigned, but in fact, it has been 

17 assigned. That is one thing. 

18 When you see zero-zero. It could 

19 be a zero-zero because it is a procedure that 

20 is very much part of this work, a Work Group, 

21 but it has not yet -- it's relatively new, but 

22 it hasn't been -- was not reviewed by SC&A, 

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1 and right, that would be in here, too, is that 

2 true? Do I have it wrong? 

3 MR. KATZ: Right, that is in there, 

4 too. 

5 DR. MAURO: So, all this 

6 information is in here. It's really a matter 

7 -- but we want to sort and bin, and pose 

8 questions to it. 

9 For example, I would imagine you 

10 would very -- the Board would very much be 

11 interested in what are the Site Profiles and 

12 procedures or whatever, that have been 

13 prepared by NIOSH, but the Board hasn't looked 

14 at them yet, or may not even be aware that 

15 they exist? I mean, that is a possibility, 

16 too. 

17 MR. KATZ: Right, I mean, SC&A, as 

18 easily as anyone, could go through this and 

19 populate the other Work Groups with what has 

20 already been taken on. Once this thing is 

21 clean and working, I mean, someone from SC&A 

22 could go through and say, okay, here is the 

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1 stuff that went into Rocky Flats. Here is the 

2 stuff that went into the -- each one of these, 

3 Blockson Chemical, etcetera, and populate 

4 those with all the ones that have been --

5 DR. ULSH: You could like pick the 

6 document and say which group it's assigned to. 

7 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

8 DR. ULSH: The second part of that 

9 is loading in all the findings. 

10 MR. KATZ: No, and the problem --

11 yes, no, I am not suggesting that anyone go 

12 get -- because in these cases, for all these 

13 other ones, the matrices are Excel 

14 spreadsheets or they're something like that, 

15 and I'm not suggesting that anybody go through 

16 all that work. 

17 Just the basic accounting of 

18 knowing what went where and actually was 

19 worked on, not to fill it in with all of the 

20 data. 

21 DR. MAURO: You can't. 

22 MR. KATZ: That is just not worth 

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1 the work. 

2 DR. MAURO: It can't be done. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: No, it isn't. 

4 MR. KATZ: Not worth the work. 

5 DR. MAURO: I mean, tomorrow is the 

6 -- we're going to be talking Appendix BB, to 

7 General Steel Industries. 

8 MR. KATZ: Right. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

10 DR. MAURO: I know we have major 

11 number of --

12 MR. KATZ: You have major -- three 

13 matrices for that Work Group, already, and so 

14 --

15 DR. MAURO: Right, correct, yes, 

16 exactly. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: All right, anything 

18 else, and thank you, Steve, for having that 

19 double-checked. That was most helpful, to 

20 have all that stuff up and loaded, because it 

21 was a concern, that blank spot in our 

22 abilities to use the database. Thank you. 

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1 The last item on our agenda then, 

2 is when we're going to meet next. 

3 I am going to be out of the country 

4 for the month of November, and I will come 

5 back, I will be flying into Atlanta the day 

6 before the Tampa meeting. I'll be in South 

7 Africa. Don't try to call me. 

8 I believe that that means anything 

9 that we need to do upcoming, is not likely to 

10 take place in the next month, and therefore, 

11 since it's not likely to take place in the 

12 next month, it also is not likely to take 

13 place in December, given our Tampa meeting. 

14 So, unless I am mis-reading the 

15 probabilities here, it looks to me as though 

16 our next meeting is likely to be January. 

17 Does that agree with --

18 MR. KATZ: Well, let me just say, I 

19 mean, I don't know, there is plenty of time 

20 for staff to get more work done on either 

21 side. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: When is the Tampa 

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1 meeting? 

2 MR. KATZ: The Tampa meeting is 

3 7th, 8th and 9th of December. 

4 So, I mean, that is -- you know, 

5 we're most of the way through September, 

6 October, November, and part of December. 

7 There is plenty of time, like 54, we have 54. 

8 If there is -- if we're lined up --

9 I'm wondering what other major work there is 

10 to do, but there is plenty of time that if you 

11 wanted to set a procedure Work Group 

12 Subcommittee meeting for that next week in 

13 December, it may be too much for you folks, to 

14 do it, having been in Florida that prior week. 

15 But there is the week of the 12th. 

16 After the week of the 12th, certainly, you 

17 can't do it in December. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: And my having been out 

19 of the country the proceeding --

20 MR. KATZ: Makes that hard. 

21 CHAIR MUNN: Well, makes it hard 

22 for me, but of course, I'm not the one who is 

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1 doing the work. The staff is the -- NIOSH and 

2 SC&A are the folks who have to do the work. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: So, that would 

4 leave us a couple of weeks, or another week or 

5 so, in September, all of October, and 

6 November, such as it is. I mean, it starts --

7 MR. KATZ: Then it's Thanksgiving. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: -- Thanksgiving and 

9 Veteran's Day, November is not real 

10 productive. 

11 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And then --

13 MR. KATZ: Otherwise we can --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: We can -- I mean, 

15 we should be able to put something together. I 

16 mean, that is three months away. We should be 

17 able to get some progress going, and --

18 DR. MAURO: I have a suggestion for 

19 the December meeting. Quite a way back, when 

20 we started from the beginning, we identified 

21 103 procedures that became the procedures that 

22 would be reviewed, that SC&A would review, we 

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1 used to call them Task 3. 

2 This Subcommittee Work Group, and a 

3 Subcommittee was convened, and I think that 

4 many years have passed. We've reviewed -- this 

5 goes to that summary sheet. 

6 If that summary sheet could be 

7 prepared, I think that would be a very 

8 important status report to do -- for the 

9 Board, that could be given, in December. I'm 

10 sure we'd have to see it, but I am dying to 

11 see that summary. 

12 I am not saying that -- this is 

13 what -- you know, what was on our plate, back 

14 several years ago, what was on our plate, as a 

15 Subcommittee? 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, we're talking 

17 about the report that we refer to as Wanda's 

18 status report? 

19 DR. MAURO: That would be the 

20 status report, but and that story told, I 

21 think that would be -- I think that's what --

22 we're there, but and I think we're close to 

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1 being done, quite frankly. 

2 MR. KATZ: Right, but it won't be 

3 ready before the December Board meeting. The 

4 Board meeting is the first week in December. 

5 So, if the Procedures Subcommittee 

6 were to get together, it would be the next 

7 week on that. 

8 DR. MAURO: Oh, I see. 

9 MR. KATZ: So, the timing isn't 

10 right. 

11 DR. MAURO: No, I wasn't saying --

12 that would be something that could be 

13 presented at the Board meeting, even though 

14 the Subcommittee --

15 MR. KATZ: Well, there is no time 

16 for a Subcommittee meeting to pull that 

17 together. 

18 DR. MAURO: I thought it was just 

19 going to be done. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: It would be us to 

21 put it together. 

22 MR. KATZ: I see, you mean just a 

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1 report of status? 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: A report of what is 

3 in the database. 

4 DR. MAURO: And just say, listen, 

5 here we are, and just --

6 MR. MARSCHKE: If it is available, 

7 they can give it. If it's not available --

8 DR. MAURO: And that is all I'm 

9 saying, it would be nice to see that. I think 

10 -- I know I would be very interested, and I'm 

11 sure the Board would be, too. 

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Obviously, you can 

13 say --

14 MR. KATZ: You could have it as 

15 part of your progress report. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I would think we 

17 could do it. 

18 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

19 DR. MAURO: We could say out of the 

20 50, 45 are done. I mean, I don't know if that 

21 is true. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: You already got the 

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1 two-pagers done. For 50 procedures --

2 DR. MAURO: Yes, but that is all --

3 MR. MARSCHKE: By definition, those 

4 50 are already done. 

5 DR. MAURO: But what is more 

6 important? I think there were over 500 

7 comments. I bet you, we finished the -- I'll 

8 say 550, I bet you we're well into 400 

9 completed. 

10 You know, there may be -- I think 

11 we're really in the home stretch on this, but 

12 I am not sure. My intuition tells me that, 

13 and I'd like to get an idea of what that is, 

14 and I think that once you do that table, we'll 

15 know right away, and it would be informative 

16 to everyone concerned, even though you may not 

17 have a Work Group meeting or a Subcommittee 

18 meeting. 

19 MR. KATZ: So, back to -- okay, so, 

20 that is good, and Stu is going to look into 

21 that, whether he can report out on just the 

22 numbers, where we are. 

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: That would just be 

2 a table or two, right? 

3 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

4 MR. KATZ: Yes, it's pretty simple. 

5 Wanda and Work Group, do you want to shoot 

6 for December, or do you want to shoot for 

7 January? That's all we're asking, at this 

8 point? 

9 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I could do 

10 either. If we did that next week, then 

11 essentially, what I would do is, I'd stay over 

12 on the East Coast, over that weekend. There 

13 wouldn't be any point in my flying back to the 

14 West Coast and then turning around and two or 

15 three days later, and coming back again. 

16 MR. KATZ: I'm just wondering 

17 whether your fellow Board Members can deal 

18 with that much time in one --

19 CHAIR MUNN: That is a lot of 

20 stuff, right in the middle of December. 

21 MR. KATZ: -- in one place, right. 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Just before Christmas 

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1 time? 

2 MR. KATZ: How does that look to 

3 you? 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I can do it. 

5 December is not that great, you know, the 

6 previous week is pretty well shot. That third 

7 week is the only breather. We don't know yet, 

8 we're -- we have to split up. We can't be at 

9 one place at Christmas. 

10 So, we end up splitting it up, so, 

11 I work around the schedule, but --

12 CHAIR MUNN: But all that stuff is 

13 displacing Christmas, personal stuff that 

14 takes place in December, that makes it 

15 difficult. 

16 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Although, I would --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Unless there is 

19 some urgency to get something done. 

20 MR. KATZ: Okay, then let's shoot 

21 for January. It sounds like -- I'm hearing 

22 you, Wanda. 

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and I have jury 

2 duty starting the 17th, and so --

3 MR. KATZ: Of when, of January? 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Of January. So, we 

5 should -- I would prefer that second week in 

6 January, if that is --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is okay to me. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: That is good for 

9 people. 

10 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Happy Birthday. 

12 MR. KATZ: That sounds like a great 

13 day. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: So, if we did this on 

15 the 10th? 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: That would be fine. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: That would be okay? 

18 MR. KATZ: Then you could celebrate 

19 on your birthday. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: I can bring a cake. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: The tradition in 

22 the office is on your birthday, you bring in 

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1 the cake. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: Of course. 

3 MR. KATZ: Okay, do you want to 

4 tentatively say the 10th? 

5 CHAIR MUNN: The 10th would be 

6 fine. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that will 

8 work. I think it's a phone call, isn't it? 

9 MR. KATZ: What is the date for 

10 that? 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: The 10th of 

12 November. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Now, I want to look 

14 at one other thing, though, because it's good 

15 to piggy-back these things. 

16 We've got some more GSI stuff 

17 coming in the end of December, which means you 

18 guys will need at least until mid January, to 

19 review it, or you know. 

20 DR. MAURO: Based on the previous 

21 experience, one month. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm thinking if we 

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1 were early February, we could back those two 

2 together. 

3 MR. KATZ: Well, yes, did you say 

4 it's the 10th and the 11th? 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I've got that on my 

6 calendar, but I think now, that was originally 

7 scheduled as a trip, but I think that we're 

8 going to phone calls. 

9 MR. KATZ: Yes, I think two are in 

10 person and two are phone calls, but even if --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: But the October is 

12 in person, but yes, I'll be busy that day. 

13 MR. KATZ: Yes, so, let's not to 

14 the 10th, then. 

15 CHAIR MUNN: How about moving it to 

16 the last days of January? How about the 30th 

17 or 31st? 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think the key 

19 thing there will be -- well, there will be two 

20 things. 

21 One, if the GSI stuff is out, I 

22 think it's due out on the 29th of December? 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, the --

2 planning that to the day is pretty tough. 

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: I understand. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: That is realistic. 

5 But being on the day is --

6 DR. MAURO: Okay, we'll it's a week 

7 late. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, but then you 

9 guys need at least two weeks, and then we need 

10 a couple. 

11 DR. MAURO: Well, this one, we took 

12 a month on. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: We took a month 

14 because Bob had some conflicts, but --

15 MR. KATZ: Yes, he had some other 

16 CDC work. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I am not available 

18 on the 30th and changes are, not on the 31st, 

19 it's the end of my vacation. 

20 MR. KATZ: Which one? 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: The 23rd through 

22 the 30th, I'm on vacation. 

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: How about the 7th? 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Of January. 

3 MR. KATZ: February? 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: January 23rd to the 

5 30th. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: How about February? 

7 


8 CHAIR MUNN: I hate to set it out 

9 that far. 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Too late? 

11 CHAIR MUNN: Well, it just is 

12 getting late. 

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I am trying 

14 to prevent you having to come in here twice, 

15 for two meetings, within two weeks. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I don't mind it 

17 if it's not the same week, actually, I don't 

18 mind even staying. I can always get a lot of 

19 work done here, if I'm staying here. 

20 DR. ULSH: Not the 12th. 

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I mean, it's 

22 easy enough for me to get here. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: What about later in 

2 the week of the 10th, of January 10th? 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that would be 

4 fine with me. But it means that the GSI stuff 

5 we're talking about is not on the table. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: If we go on the 

7 12th --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: He won't have the 

9 GIS yet. 

10 MR. KATZ: Okay, so the 12th is not 

11 good? 

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, if we -- I'd 

13 have to leave by three o'clock on the 12th. 

14 I've got a commitment that evening. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: 

16 not be available, yet. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: 

19 be available. 

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: 

But and GIS would 

Oh, no. 

No, GSI would not 

No, I'm thinking we 

21 can't go earlier in February 1st, with GSI. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, that would 

2 give them a month, but even now --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm not needed for 

4 GSI. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: We only got the GSI 

6 stuff like Friday. 

7 DR. MAURO: Right, it just came in. 

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: From SC&A. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I am not needed for 

10 GSI. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, I know. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: For the 30th and 

13 31st. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: But we could do 

15 procedures on the 13th, Friday, that Friday, 

16 because that's a long weekend coming up after 

17 that. That is Martin Luther King Day. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, Martin Luther 

19 King Day would be that Monday. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: So, we could do 

21 procedures on the 13th, and everybody could go 

22 home --

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is the 10th bad? 

2 CHAIR MUNN: The 10th isn't bad for 

3 me. 

4 MR. KATZ: It's bad for us. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, it's bad for 

6 you, okay. 

7 CHAIR MUNN: The 9th would be okay 

8 for me. I don't mind traveling on Sunday. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the 9th would 

10 work, I think. 

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: I am okay on the 

12 9th. But that's a problem on the 13th, it's 

13 that my evening commitment on the 12th is at --

14 I either drive here at midnight --

15 MR. KATZ: No, no, no. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- or I drive here 

17 at four in the morning. 

18 MR. KATZ: Let's do procedures on 

19 the 9th. 

20 CHAIR MUNN: That is always nice at 

21 -- in the middle of January. Let's just do it 

22 the 9th. 

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1 MR. KATZ: Okay, so, we have the 

2 9th? 

3 CHAIR MUNN: The 9th? 

4 MR. KATZ: For procedures, and so, 

5 this Fall, it would be good for however it 

6 works, when we get update information from 

7 DCAS, SC&A, to sort of scour and see what 

8 substantial bits and pieces are left open that 

9 either DCAS or SC&A needs, to work on, for 

10 this next meeting? 

11 DR. MAURO: That chart we just had 

12 up there, once we have that chart --

13 MR. KATZ: Right, I'm saying once 

14 this is all updated, you'll sort of know what 

15 is on your plate and if you see that there is 

16 stuff that is on the DCAS plate, too, that has 

17 been sitting there idle, let's identify those 

18 this Fall, that way we can have a meaty 

19 meeting. 

20 DR. MAURO: Yes, right. 

21 MR. KATZ: So to speak. 

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, yes, I mean, 

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281 
 

1 that is the question, I mean, we're having 

2 these meetings, but what are we working on to 

3 -- what procedures or what group of procedures 

4 are we working on to work off, because --

5 MR. KATZ: That is what I'm talking 

6 about. 

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. 

8 DR. MAURO: I don't know if you 

9 recall, there was a time when we were able to 

10 look at the summary level data, we were 

11 quickly able to say, oh, look at this, this 

12 procedure has 20 --

13 MR. KATZ: I know, we did that with 

14 54. 

15 DR. MAURO: And that was great, I 

16 mean, the next thing you know --

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Theoretically, this 

18 is what this is. 

19 DR. MAURO: I don't see it. 

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's not popping 

21 up. 

22 DR. MAURO: It's not popping out, 

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1 yes. Bing, right off the bat, I remember -- I 

2 forget which one it was, OTIB-54, we --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, this one 

4 basically --

5 DR. MAURO: We had 22 procedures in 

6 it. 

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Open procedures, 26. 

8 

9 MR. KATZ: We have problems with 

10 this data. 

11 DR. MAURO: But once it's working, 

12 we'll be okay. 

13 MR. KATZ: That is my point, the 

14 data aren't good right now, once we have the 

15 data straight, then you can do that scouring, 

16 identify some important consolidated chunks of 

17 unresolved issues --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: But we should do 

19 that before we go to the next meeting, 

20 otherwise, right now, there is nothing on --

21 MR. KATZ: What I'm saying is, we 

22 would do that this Fall, line it up so, that 

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1 everybody knows what they're working towards 

2 for the meeting in February, yes. That is 

3 exactly what I'm saying. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Right. 

5 MR. KATZ: That you can be working 

6 on it and DCAS can be working on these and 

7 then we can have a full agenda in February, 

8 yes, I totally agree. That is the aim. 

9 So, the quicker we can get the data 

10 cleaned up, the quicker we can identify what 

11 those are, those remaining fruit to be picked. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Any other thoughts or 

13 comments for the good of the order? 

14 If not, then I will see you in 

15 Tampa. Everyone have a wonderful Halloween, a 

16 very pleasant Thanksgiving, a marvelous 

17 Christmas and New Year, and a good evening. 

18 We're adjourned. 

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

20 matter concluded at 2:20 p.m.) 

21 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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