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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES 

 CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION 

+ + + + + 

 NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

 ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND 

 WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

 SUBCOMMITTEE FOR DOSE RECONSTRUCTION REVIEW 

+ + + + + 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 6, 2009 

+ + + + + 

 The meeting convened at 11:00 a.m. 

via teleconference, Mark Griffon, Chairman, 

presiding. 

PRESENT: 

MARK GRIFFON, Chairman 

BRADLEY P. CLAWSON, Member 

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member 

WANDA I. MUNN, Member 

THEODORE M. KATZ, Acting Designated Federal 

 Official 
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IDENTIFIED PARTICIPANTS: 

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor 

EMILY GUNN, GAO 

EMILY HOWELL, HHS OGC 

ROY LLOYD, HHS 

JOHN MAURO, SC&A 

ROBERT MCGOLERICK, HHS 

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU 

SCOTT SIEBERT, ORAU 
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TABLE OF CONTENTS

Roll Call 4 

Discussion of Draft First 100 Cases Report 9 

Discussion of Revision of Case Selection 37 

Criteria 
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 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

 11:00 a.m. 

 MR. KATZ: So, let's start with 

roll call, so, Mark? 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mark Griffon, 

Chair of the Subcommittee on Dose 

Reconstruction. 

 MR. KATZ: Other Board members? 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Brad Clawson, 

Advisory Board member and on the workgroup of 

the Subcommittee. 

 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, 

Advisory Board member and a Subcommittee 

member. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, how about -- I 

know Bob Presley is on the road. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Wanda and John 

Poston. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, and John may be 

traveling, because I know he responded to Jim 

Melius for the workgroup meeting on Friday 

and said he would be overseas at that point. 
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 So, I'm not sure he's here today. I'm not 

sure whether he's here or not today, but I 

didn't get a response. Let's give Wanda a 

couple minutes before we go on with the roll 

call. 

 Zaida, are you on? 

 MS. BURGOS: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Can you give Wanda a 

ring, just in case? I know it's earlier her 

time, just to be certain. 

 MS. BURGOS: I will. 

 MR. KATZ: Thanks. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mike and Brad, 

you've got the revised copy of the report, 

right? 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes, I do. 

 MEMBER GIBSON: I've got it. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, good. 

 MS. BURGOS: Ted? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

 MS. BURGOS: She'll be on the 

phone in a few minutes. 
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 MR. KATZ: Okay, thank you. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Hello. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Hi, Wanda? 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Wanda. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Hi, sorry I wasn't 

on earlier. A long-time friend and 

colleague, one of our former Commissioners, 

died the day before yesterday, and I only 

learned about it yesterday. The burial was 

this morning, and I was a little distracted. 

 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry to hear that. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, so am I. I was 

just thinking about getting to the funeral 

home instead of where I ought to be. Sorry 

about that. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, so we're done 

with roll call up through you, Wanda. 

 Let me just check again before we 

go beyond Board Members, Dr. Poston or Bob 

Presley, are either of you on the line? 

 Okay, then carrying on, how about 
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NIOSH ORAU team, are there any NIOSH ORAU 

team members on the line? Stu told me he 

wouldn't be making the meeting today. 

 MR. SIEBERT: Scott Siebert with 

the ORAU team. 

 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Scott. 

 MR. SIEBERT: Thank you. 

 MR. SHARFI: Mutty Sharfi, ORAU 

team. 

 MR. KATZ: Can you repeat that, it 

was hard to understand you. 

 MR. SHARFI: Mutty Sharfi. 

 MR. KATZ: Any others? Okay. 

 And then, how about the SC&A team? 

 DR. MAURO: John Mauro here. 

 MR. KATZ: Any others from SC&A? 

Okay. 

 Then, how about other HHS 

employees or contractors? 

 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS. 

 MR. McGOLERICK: Robert 

McGolerick, HHS. 
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 MR. LLOYD: Roy Lloyd, HHS. 

 MS. ADAMS: Nancy Adams, NIOSH 

contractor. 

 MR. KATZ: Welcome all of you. 

 And, any other -- then any other 

Federal employees, DOL, DOE? I know I heard 

somebody from GAO, Emily Gunn, was on the 

line earlier. 

 MS. GUNN: Yes, I'm still here. 

 MR. KATZ: welcome, Emily. 

 MS. GUNN: Thank you. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. Anyone from the 

Department of Labor and Department of Energy? 

 Okay. 

 And then, any members of the 

public or staff from congressional offices 

who want to self identify? 

 Okay then, Mark, it's all yours. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Well, I 

guess we have a short agenda, and, you know, 

it could take a little time or a lot of time, 

but only two items. 
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 The main focus, I think, is the 

leftover draft hundred case, first hundred 

cases report, and I sent a revised -- a 

revision out based on the comments from the 

last Subcommittee meeting. 

 And, Wanda, I checked with Mike 

and Brad, you got a copy, correct, Wanda? 

 MEMBER MUNN: Hold on, I'm just 

double checking to see. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I think I recall 

reading that. Time has been a bit compressed 

here in the last week. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anyway, I'll 

just talk while Wanda is looking for that. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, what day did 

you send that? 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, it was a 

just few days -- either yesterday or the day 

before. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I thought it 

was -- 
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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yesterday 

morning, I think. 

 MEMBER MUNN: -- I'm double 

checking. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I really 

intended to get it out earlier, but that was 

pretty early for our standards. 

 And then, the other item on the 

agenda, you know, if we have -- I mean, I 

think this is the more pressing one, but the 

other item was the -- revisiting the case 

selection criteria, we had committed to that 

-- that was a request of the overall Board, 

that we reexamine our original case selection 

criteria and see if we had to modify it at 

all. 

 And, I found, I forwarded also an 

old flow diagram, which gives some 

information. I also have some other 

information from -- Kathy Behling has 

forwarded me a draft database similar to the 

Procedures Work Group, or Procedures 
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Subcommittee, that has some of the case 

statistics up through the first 120 cases. 

So, that also can be kind of helpful in this 

discussion, although it's not available for 

everybody, it's kind of a draft that Kathy 

sent to me to start using on this committee. 

 Hopefully, by the next meeting maybe we'll 

have something like that set up. 

 But anyway, those are the two 

items, and I guess I can describe what I did 

on the revision. You should clearly see the 

changes, they are either in red or some other 

color, but they are definitely highlighted in 

the drafts that I sent around. 

 And, the idea was to sort of 

describe -- well, it was just a question of, 

I never really got to the bottom line, and 

everyone at the last meeting thought it would 

be useful to describe like the three -- I 

think it can be broken down a little further, 

I think Stu, in one of his graphs, broke it 

out a little more precisely, but there's 
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three general categories of dose 

reconstructions that we looked at, and they 

were best estimate, the over-estimated cases, 

and the under-estimated cases. 

 And, I tried to describe, you 

know, what percentages we found, what 

percentages there are overall in the case 

population as of, you know, 20,000 cases, 

that was the graphic that Stu sent around to 

me, maybe to everyone, I'm not sure. 

 And then, to go into each one of 

those types of cases, just quickly, you know, 

for the best estimate, what were our overall 

impressions for the over-estimated cases, 

what were our overall impressions, and for 

the under-estimated cases what were our 

overall impressions, and then the rest of the 

report remains. We've discussed the rest of 

the report, it remains unchanged, basically. 

 So, those were the -- that was the 

front end that I tried to add. It's getting 

a little longer, but it also, I think, just 
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gives a little better sort of more executive, 

you know, more executive-type summary that we 

were looking for. At least that was my 

intent. 

 I guess that's my overall 

description. I certainly think there might 

be some wording, you know, that we can work 

on, but I would open it up for your overall 

impressions, the other committee members. 

 Well, that's a good impression. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I'm scanning through 

this right now. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. All 

right. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I'll have to be 

truthful, the only opportunity that I had to 

see my e-mail yesterday was a very brief 

scanning -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

 MEMBER MUNN: -- last night of 

what was on it. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 
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 MEMBER MUNN: And, I am just now 

scanning it. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's why I 

was talking so long, to give people time to 

read through it again. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, yes, my 

apologies for that. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I can see some 

things already, like the last sentence in the 

second paragraph, I think I sort of need to 

describe a little better, because I'm 

comparing the percentages for the first 

20,000 cases to the percentages for those 

that we reviewed. And, I think that last 

sentence might be better if it said of the 

cases discussed in this report 7 percent were 

best estimate, 76, you know, because I think 

it's a little confusing to the reader. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, in this report 

it's much better. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, there's 

little things like that. 
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 MEMBER MUNN: So, there's that 

revision. 

 DR. MAURO: Mark, this is John. I 

read through it. I did catch a couple of 

typos. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sure, I'll take 

those friendly amendments, too. 

 DR. MAURO: These are all 

friendly. By the way, I think the Executive 

Summary is excellent. I think that, you 

know, when I read it I said, yes, this really 

tells the story nicely on the right level. 

 But, in any event, you know, 

whenever you want I have two or three places 

where I have some suggestions, mainly typos. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: People can even 

e-mail those. 

 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, as long 

as it's not -- I mean, Ted, that's fine, if 

we can vote on the sense of the report, I'm 

certainly willing for wordsmithing at a later 
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date before we bring to the Board. I think 

that's acceptable. We can -- it would be 

nice if we could, by the end of this meeting, 

have a sense of the committee, the 

Subcommittee, whether we can bring this as a 

motion from the Subcommittee before the Board 

next week, and then we can, I think, I can 

revise with edits and those kind of things 

without altering that motion. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, Mark, I completely 

agree. I don't think you need to do close 

copy editing in this meeting. That's fine. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think that 

would be cumbersome, especially, over the 

phone like this. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I guess I'd make one 

suggestion. That first paragraph on the 

second page. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: First paragraph 

on the second page. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Where we are talking 

about the dose reconstructions, in the next 
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to the last -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Tell me what 

the line starts with; I'm not sure where you 

are. 

 MR. KATZ: Wanda, hang on one 

second, I didn't -- I failed to note, because 

I thought all of were -- for this meeting the 

main thing is not actually speaking, please 

mute your phone so that we don't have 

interference with the people who are trying 

to speak. And, if you don't have a mute 

button, you can you use *6. Thanks. 

 Hello? We are hearing someone 

with a sidebar discussion. Please mute your 

phone so that it doesn't interfere with the 

call. 

 MEMBER MUNN: We still have a 

woman in the background. 

 MR. KATZ: Zaida, can you cut the 

line that's interfering? 

 MS. BURGOS: I will. 

 MR. KATZ: Thank you. 
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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let's just wait 

for this to subside here. You'd think with 

these small ones we'd be all right, right? 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, you would 

think. 

 MR. KATZ: Not everybody is a 

regular here, so -- 

 MEMBER MUNN: I think I can talk 

over that. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, I 

think I can hear you. 

 MR. KATZ: But, it's very hard for 

the court reporter, who has to follow this. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, yes, that's 

right, it is. 

 Perhaps, we need to -- 

 MR. KATZ: It doesn't sound like 

the line is cut, but maybe they've stopped 

talking. 

 MS. BURGOS: He's working on it 

now. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. Are the rest of 
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you still there? 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We got it, yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, okay. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

 MEMBER MUNN: A fairly simple 

thing, but the next to the last sentence on 

that first paragraph on the second page says, 

"While the dose reconstruction may be 

appropriate, this has created real confusion 

about the claimant population." And, I 

agree, it has created real confusion, but I 

don't feel among the claimant population as a 

whole, I think it's the people who have 

actually experienced that. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, that's 

true. 

 MEMBER MUNN: And, among the 

claimants who have experienced. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, among the 

claimants who have experienced, yes, okay. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, that's 
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fine, yes. Yes, I agree. Okay. 

 And then, as you are reading on, 

Wanda, the last section there is the 17 cases 

with the under-estimating approach, and they 

were all over 50 percent, so they were, you 

know -- 

 MEMBER MUNN: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- I think we 

pretty much agreed that they were 

appropriately done. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think there's 

one thing in the -- there's one edit that I'm 

going to make, the over-estimated approach 

for, it says six cases that were compensated. 

 Kathy Behling sent me a late e-mail last 

night that, actually, concurred with my 

number, which was eight, and originally she 

had told me six. But, John, you can double 

check that maybe with Kathy, but I'm pretty 

sure that's correct. 

 DR. MAURO: Yes, right now it says 
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several, six. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, several 

six, yes, I knew we had several, and then we 

had a number, yes, it's, actually, for eight 

cases. So, I'll replace the several six with 

eight cases in that section. 

 The only other thing I was 

thinking if you go back to the first page, 

after the second paragraph I was considering, 

because, Ted, really, those lines were added 

after you e-mailed me and reminded me that we 

had asked for that one sort of comparison, 

and I think it needs to be put in some 

context. And, as I was looking through the 

case selection criteria I think I might have 

the context. 

 But, you know, it looks as though, 

based on that, I would read this to say 

20,000 cases, 8 percent, best estimate, 63 

are over-estimates, and 29 under-estimates, 

and then of the first 100 cases, or of those 

discussed in this report, we kind of have the 
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same percentages almost. It's pretty -- you 

know, fairly close. 

 I was going to add on a sentence, 

though, to remind the reader, or to tell the 

reader, because I don't know if we ever 

mentioned this, but in our original approach 

to the dose review, as you'll see in the flow 

chart for the selection criteria, we really 

intended on -- and I was going to say it 

should be noted that the Board's intent was 

to review a greater percentage of the bestestimate cases, and as you'll see in our 

criteria we, actually, said we were looking 

for like 40 percent of our cases to be from 

the 45-50 percent range, and I think the 

intent there was that that's where NIOSH had 

to sharpen their pencils, so to speak, and, 

you know, that's where issues regarding -- 

that could affect compensation are more 

likely to be -- you know, show up. So, 

that's where we wanted to focus our review. 

 So, even though the percentages 
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were close in our original audit, we want to 

put more emphasis on the best-estimate cases. 

 I don't know if that needs to be in there at 

all, but just a thought. 

 MEMBER MUNN: My question was 

going to be -- so you are suggesting that you 

add another sentence of explanation? 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, just -- 

 MEMBER MUNN: Actually, this looks 

fine to me. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- all right, 

maybe we'll just leave it like that. It 

reads fine, I guess, yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, I'll 

just leave it like that. I guess I don't 

need to put any, you know, judgment on it. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, Mark, I just -- 

you know, it doesn't need to be there. If 

you wanted to add a paragraph about going 

forward, I think that would be perfectly 

appropriate to add if you want it. I don't 
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think it's essential. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: But, if it's something 

that, you, is frequently done in these sort 

of reports, it's completely up to you. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

 MEMBER MUNN: And, I guess my 

instinct would be not to include anything 

about what comes next week, or next month, or 

next year. These reports are, in my view, 

complex enough as they are. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

 MEMBER MUNN: And, we have not -- 

at least I have not assimilated any feeling 

that we need to change the concept of these 

occasional reports. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, I'll 

leave that out. It was just a thought as I 

was reading through. 

 DR. MAURO: Mark, I just had a 

thought. Do you think it would be worth 

mentioning that at the time of preparing this 
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report on the first 100, we currently have 

the Board audited, or in the process of 

auditing 240? As of this date, the 240 have 

been reviewed by SC&A, and, of course, all of 

which are at various stages of issues 

resolution. I don't know if that's the kind 

of thing -- that would get like up to date. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not sure if 

that's just -- 

 DR. MAURO: Just a thought. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- yes. I just 

-- I'm not sure we need to have that in 

there, what other people think. I just think 

that might add confusion, like, well why are 

you so far behind on the ones that have 

already been done. 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Mark, this is 

Brad. I've got to agree with you. I think I 

guess I could be considered as layman as 

anybody, but it would just add a little more 

confusion to it. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know, I know. 
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feel like that would be -- I might need to 

explain that a little further, and I don't 

want to make it any -- 

 DR. MAURO: No problem. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- more lengthy 

than it is. 

 DR. MAURO: Like I said, we were 

talking about -- you are absolutely right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I already 

thought, as I was adding this stuff, that it 

was getting a little lengthy, but I did want 

to take enough sentences to explain, because 

we throw around these terms, best estimate, 

over-estimate, under-estimate, you know, so I 

thought it was worth a sentence or two of 

explanation of what we meant by that. 

 I hope that's okay. If there's 

some wordsmithing there, too, that NIOSH has 

comments on for defining those parameters, I 

would take those, if I am saying something is 

slightly erroneous, you know, regarding the 
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efficiency process or whatever. 

 MR. KATZ: Mark, actually, my 

perspective, I, actually, think you've 

handled this really well with all the new 

material, and I think it's just -- as Dr. 

Mauro said, I think it's a really good sort 

of overview for the Secretary. I think it 

really did sort of hit the nail on the head, 

and I think that's great. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

 MR. KATZ: The one thing I would 

just suggest, in terms of titling this, it's 

not -- this is really sort of what I would 

just call an introduction to the Executive 

Summary, rather than just Executive Summary, 

because part of this is context that you are 

giving up front, which I think it absolutely 

right, isn't repeated in the body of the 

report. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So, an 

introduction. 

 MR. KATZ: Normally, an Executive 
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Summary really does just summarize what's in 

the body of the report. This, actually, 

gives context that is needed, but it's not in 

the body. So, you may then either repeat it 

in the body of the report or just say, you 

know, introduction and Executive Summary. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I surely 

don't want to repeat it anymore. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Please, let's don't 

repeat. 

 MR. KATZ: That's what I would 

suggest, that's all. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, just 

introduction and Executive Summary, or just 

introduction? 

 MR. KATZ: I would just -- or you 

can even just call this, you know, an 

introduction, that's fine. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, maybe just 

introduction. 

 MR. KATZ: Fine. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Background or 
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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And, the 

title, of course, yes, some of those things 

on the top, we can re-title them. I'm not 

too worried about that, you know, however 

Paul wants to format, you know, consistent 

with the other reports that we submitted, I 

think that's how, you know, Paul can work 

that out. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I have to 

agree, the new verbiage is good. 

 I, as always, resist adding any 

words to anything. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know. 

 MEMBER MUNN: But -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: When I saw the 

pages going up, Wanda, so I was thinking of 

you, you don't want it too long. 

 MEMBER MUNN: -- and then in II, 

the last item is titled, "Finding Resolution 

Process." And, even though when I looked at 

that I thought, we're finding the resolution 
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process, we already know the resolution 

process. 

 Could we, perhaps, call that 

instead resolution process of findings? 

Would that be a little clearer than -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Or, just 

resolution process maybe, resolution process 

of findings? 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Or just 

resolution process. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, either, but 

resolution process of findings, we said 

findings in each of the headings. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, 

resolution process of findings, that's fine. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. All 

right. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I'm not even reading 

any other words except -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I have not 
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touched the rest of it, you can see the red 

ones, yes, I haven't touched the other part 

of the report, and I think, basically, we are 

all happy with that. 

 And, the attachment, I'm going to 

go with Kathy's latest update on the 

attachments that we looked at before, which 

give the sort of summary, you know, 

statistics on the breakout of the cases for 

the first 100, and I can forward that to 

people, you know, just for your information. 

 I think you all have it, but maybe when I do 

these edits, you know, before the Board 

meeting I'll do one final edit and send it 

all around. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, those graphs 

were particularly nice I think. 

 I'm a little puzzled about the 

other file that came along. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, that's 

for the next discussion, which is our case 

selection criteria. 
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 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That doesn't go 

with this report at all. 

 MEMBER MUNN: It's a good thing. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, no, that 

was -- 

 MEMBER MUNN: I'm not getting that 

part. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- this is 

probably, I found this -- is there a date on 

it? Well, I don't know, it must be an auto 

date thing. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, it probably is. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Because it says 

2009. This I probably did in 2003, I think, 

anyway, I found this in an old file with, you 

know, some of our first discussions of 

selection criteria. 

 MEMBER MUNN: When we were first 

getting started, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But, let's 

close out this report first, if we can. If 
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everybody is in agreement, other than, you 

know, sort of grammatical things. 

 DR. MAURO: Mark, this is John. 

 There is one substantive 

suggestion I have in Item No. 6 in the main 

body of the report, you know, items, issues 

regarding scientific judgments and 

assumptions. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: At the end of that you 

identify two examples, where there are more 

problems. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

 DR. MAURO: There's a third, that 

we have discussed recently. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

 DR. MAURO: Whether it applies to 

this 100, I'm not sure, but it has to do -- 

and this is conceptual -- it has to do with 

when we review a lot of these exposure 

matrices which are applied to the AWEs -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 
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 DR. MAURO: -- we are finding that 

they are using a one size fits all, and very 

often this information in the CATI report and 

in the main body of the dose reconstruction 

pertaining to the job category that this 

particular worker had. That is not factored 

in. In other words, the automatic would just 

apply. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I know 

what you are saying. 

 DR. MAURO: And, I thought that 

was a third item that would fit in nicely 

here, if you feel it's worth mentioning. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I know 

we'll capture -- I know we've been discussing 

that lately, I just -- I hesitate to edit 

this at all because -- 

 DR. MAURO: I understand. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- we've 

discussed that part, and it may have come up 

more in recent cases than in this first 100. 

 DR. MAURO: That's true, it really 
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came up, I would say, in the last couple of 

rounds of discussion. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I mean, I 

think everyone around -- you know, all -- 

NIOSH is aware of it, we are all aware of it, 

I just hate to confuse this report on the 

first 100. 

 DR. MAURO: No problem. 

 MEMBER MUNN: And, that seems to 

be so much more of a CATI item than it is -- 

 DR. MAURO: It, actually, is more 

of a CATI item. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, its' kind 

of an overlapping with the CATI, yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, I would 

rather not add that in yet, John. I mean, 

certainly, you are right, we have been 

discussing that quite a bit, so -- 

 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We'll capture 

it at some point. 
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 MEMBER MUNN: I think some sense 

of that is captured in No. 1. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 Okay, if there's no further, other 

than, you know, grammatical and things like 

that, is everybody comfortable bringing this 

as a recommended report from the 

Subcommittee? 

 MEMBER MUNN: I certainly am. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think 

we have to vote on it, but Brad or Mike? 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: This is Brad. I 

feel comfortable with it. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

 MEMBER GIBSON: I agree. Mike. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, 

great. I think we got it. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Good. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm glad, 

because this is revision six for me. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, I know, and 

it's a long, difficult thing, but -- 
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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But, I do 

appreciate, I mean, I think everybody was 

right to force me to sort of work a little 

harder on that front end, because it does -- 

we needed a little context for the report. 

so, I think it's a reasonable product now. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, and I do 

believe that this is not going to be any 

different than most of the material that 

crosses the desks of the upper echelon, the 

first page or two is going to tell the story 

for them, or not at all. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sure. Sure. 

 Okay, let's go on to our second 

topic, and maybe we can, actually, end the 

conference call early. That would be 

something new for us, huh? 

 Let's see, this is -- we had been 

asked by the overall Board to sort of 

reexamine the case selection process, and 

this, as Wanda pointed -- I mean, this is a 

sort of primitive flow sheet, it gives us an 
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idea. I sent it along because it was the 

best -- actually, one of the only things I 

could find that sort of laid out some of the 

original parameters we were looking at, as 

far as when we selected the cases. 

 But, you know, these categories on 

the left, probable causation, facility, 

decade, duration, obviously, are ones we've 

been considering, and as I said, it was 

interesting to look back and say, okay, from 

zero to 45 we were thinking of, you know, our 

goal was 40 percent of our overall cases that 

we reviewed would fall into that category, 

and 40 percent would fall into the middle 45 

to 50 percent category. And then, 20 

percent, you know, compensable cases above 50 

percent. 

 So, I, actually, have, if I can 

find it, have the draft database, as I said, 

from Kathy, and -- well, actually, she sent 

some more stuff. So, maybe I have it hot off 

the press. I'm sorry, bear with me here, she 
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just sent this a little while ago, this is 

the 258 cases overview for POC. So, she gave 

me a breakdown on all the POCs for the first 

258. 

 Anyway, I guess there were two 

questions. One is the criteria, and then I 

think the other was the overall sample, 

right? I mean, I think we were targeting 2-

1/2 percent of all cases. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Of the total. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Of the total, 

you know, sort of -- 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, that was the 

original intent. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. And, I 

don't know where -- does anyone on the phone 

have a number? I mean, this 20,000 might be 

out of date. 

 DR. MAURO: Yes, I think we are 

really operating at around 1 percent, in the 

grand scheme of things, as opposed to 2-1/2 

percent. 
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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, 

currently, but I mean, yes, yes. 

 DR. MAURO: But, of the first 100 

where we were at that time, I think you might 

be on target. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, how many 

cases, I mean, can anyone from NIOSH give me 

a number on that. Scott? Scott Siebert is 

on the line. Do you know how many cases 

currently are in the hopper, so to speak, for 

dose reconstruction? 

 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, honestly, I 

can't tell you. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

 MR. SIEBERT: That's not what I 

track, sorry. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's all 

right. That's all right. 

 DR. MAURO: You know, if it helps 

any, I remember at the various presentations 
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of the number of adjudicated claims that are 

often given at the Board meetings -- 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: -- I remember you were 

right around 25,000. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: And, right now we are 

at, well, I guess the 25,000 number, you 

know, so trying to keep pace -- you know, in 

the end the idea, I guess what I'm hearing 

is, if there's 25,000 at this point in time, 

that means eventually, I guess, you'd want to 

audit a total of what? 

 MEMBER MUNN: A little over 500. 

 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: A little over 500, and 

right now we are at -- we are really at 250. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

 DR. MAURO: So, I mean, I don't 

know how do you -- whether you want to -- 
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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and the 

cases are going to continue to come in, but 

they've definitely leveled off. 

 DR. MAURO: Not at the same pace, 

that's right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mark, as far as I know 

there's 24,000 when you subtract out cases 

that were pulled, and cases that went to the 

FCC, and cases that have been returned, I 

guess. 

 Yes, so we are in the right ball 

park. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So, I 

mean, you know, that would be 500 -- 625 

around for the 25,000 mark, and I would say, 

you know, the one thing -- I'm not sure that 

we need to modify our selection process much. 

 I think the summary statistics give us some 

good information. I think we definitely want 

more best-estimate cases, and those that sort 

of fall in the 45-50 percent range, they may 
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not always be best estimates in that range. 

 But, I think they usually do fall 

into that, I think once -- now, Scott, you 

may be able to help me out here, if you use 

an over-estimating approach, and the POC 

exceeds 45, do you then sharpen the pencil, 

so to speak, as Jim Neton always says, and 

use a best estimate, or do you -- 

 MR. SIEBERT: Generally speaking, 

it depends on the type of over-estimate that 

you use. If it's a gross over-estimate, such 

as like OTIB-18, things like that, yes. If 

it's a relatively small over-estimate like 

using a DCF of 1, rather than the full 

triangular distribution -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

 MR. SIEBERT: -- we may not do 

that. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, it's not 

that clean, but okay, instead of looking at 

POC we may, and we've already started doing 

that, actually, looking at -- Stu provides 
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that to us, but, you know, we look -- we sort 

of pre-select on POC, but then we asked Stu 

to break out the type of dose reconstruction 

full internal, full external, you know, et 

cetera. 

 So, you know, we've already really 

been doing that. But, I guess my point there 

is that Stu indicates in his graphic that 

based on the first 20,000 anyway, I guess his 

e-mail he sent was probably a little while 

ago, but based on the 20,000 number he said 

approximately 8 percent were best-estimate 

type, which would be 1,600, is that right, 

1,600 cases? 

 So, if we were to shoot for our 40 

percent goal, that, you know, I mean, 40 

percent of our cases we want to be -- you 

know, so, in other words, there's still a 

population there, enough best-estimate cases 

that we can get 40 percent of our 600 cases 

to be best-estimate type cases, that's my 

point. 
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 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I think we can. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I haven't seen any 

evidence that there's any paucity of 

material. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So, I 

still think that's a reasonable goal. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, I haven't 

seen, frankly, individual -- for myself, I 

have not seen any real reason to consider 

changing the parameters that we set out. We 

went to considerable length to make sure that 

we were trying to fit the -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm, actually, 

trying to remember why this was raised. Was 

it a question of overall scope? Maybe that's 

the context that it came up in, but I feel 

like we are fairly on target with it, and we 

should -- 

 MEMBER MUNN: I think so, too. My 

memory is the concern that we were having was 

whether or not we were going to have an 
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adequate number of the assessment cases 

available to us at any given time to do what 

we needed to do. Because there are -- 

because of the other factors, the timing 

things. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and the 

PER reviews and all those kind of things. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mark, the other item, 

this is Ted, was, in fact, I mean it was your 

concern, among -- I'm not sure about others 

on the Subcommittee, but it was certainly 

your concern or question as to whether the 

sample is big enough, or whether it needs to 

be increased, in other words, the number of 

dose reconstructions that get reviewed 

overall. So, that was a driver for having 

this discussion. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I wanted 

more then -- I don't remember that, but, yes, 

I could have said that. I mean, I think -- I 
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know that I at one point raised a question as 

to whether we could -- whether SC&A could 

ramp up, but I think, really, sometimes the 

driver, as Wanda just sort of alluded to, is 

that, you know, we have to have, not only 

best-estimate cases, but best-estimate cases 

that are reviewable, you know. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That have final 

adjudication. And, that, usually, is our 

limiting factor. So, I think the pace that 

we are at seems to make sense, and, John, I 

don't know if you agree with that, it seems 

like -- we've had a few glitches, but it 

seems like that pace for your folks is pretty 

good as well. 

 DR. MAURO: Yes, we are -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You had the one 

delay where you had no cases, but then we got 

the 11th set going on. I think we -- 

 DR. MAURO: Yes, you filled in the 

pipeline; we are working at just the pace we 
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want to work at. If you wanted to kick it 

up, we have the capacity to do it, but I 

think we're fine now. 

 The only thought I had, regarding 

this whole matter, is we are seeing these 

realistic cases, and we are seeing, I know 

I've seen the number -- it’s over 45, to 45 

and 50. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: And, I would be so 

bold as to say, it might be a good idea to 

review all realistic cases that are between 

45 and 50, all. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That would be 

bold. I mean, I'm not sure how many -- yes, 

I think we have to reassess that. 

 DR. MAURO: You know what it is; I 

just wanted to stir the pot a little bit. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Maybe we should 

-- you were afraid we were going to hang up 

early. 

 MEMBER MUNN: That's a pretty big 
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 DR. MAURO: I see numbers -- I've 

seen cases between 45 and 50. Now, I only 

look at AWEs. I have to say, I've seen a lot 

of potential reversals, once I started to 

look at those. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, what I 

would say is, I think we need to -- maybe we 

should ask NIOSH to give us some numbers on 

that, too, how many best estimates fall -- 

because Scott just said, that they may not 

all be, you know, best estimates if they fall 

within 45 to 50, there may still be some over 

estimates in that. So, maybe we can fine 

tune that number, too, but if what Stu sent 

me is fairly accurate, you are talking about 

1,600 cases in that 45 to 50 region, at 

least, and then that would be a significant 

increase from, you know, where we are going 

right now. 

 DR. MAURO: Is that right, there 

were that many realistic, between 45 and 50? 
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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's 

what it says. 

 DR. MAURO: Well, you may want to 

crank it down -- the idea being, those that 

are knocking on the door -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: -- now 45 is pretty 

far away from 50, but I've seen, you know, 

48, I just did a 49.6 case. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: So, I mean, those are 

important. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, no, no, I 

agree. I agree, John. I agree with the 

nature of your comment, I just -- 

 DR. MAURO: Yes, I know -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- I'm not 

ready to say, you know, as a policy decision 

that the Subcommittee supports your view on 

all best-estimate cases, I think we would 

open a can of worms with that. 

 DR. MAURO: Within some POC range. 
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 MEMBER MUNN: I wouldn't want to 

do that. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, let's 

look, you know what we can do is, ask NIOSH, 

and I will ask this at the next Board 

meeting, if we can get a further breakdown on 

those best-estimate cases, and maybe Stu can 

probably run them all and just give us POCs 

for all those that fall in that range, and we 

can look and maybe there are -- you know, the 

ones for 48 to 50, maybe there's only, you 

know, 75 of those, or 100 of those, or 

whatever. 

 MEMBER MUNN: We don't want to put 

too fine an edge on this. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Because it has an 

enormously fine edge already. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think I like 

our number of 40 percent falling in that 

range. I think that's still a pretty 

aggressive sample. 
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 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, it is an 

aggressive sample, and there are times, as 

has already been pointed out, when the 

pipeline makes it difficult for us to gather 

a large enough reading to really and truly 

make a decent selection. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: And, we can't fool 

reality. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I agree, and 

the other -- that's the other reason that I 

wouldn't, at this point anyway, recommend an 

increase in production, so to speak, for 

SC&A, because if we ask them to review more 

cases, you know, per year, the problem is the 

pipeline. I mean, you know, we are not going 

to have the cases, the types of cases that we 

want available. so, we won't get to that 40 

percent of those between 45 and 50. 

 So, I think we should stay at the 

same rate, and, basically, stay with the same 

approach. I think we are okay. 
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 MEMBER MUNN: I don't see any real 

reason to change it, as long as we have the 

level of -- the numbers of cases coming 

through that will give us a decent sample to 

choose from. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, then I'll 

make that report back to the Board. I think 

we are okay. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I don't see any 

pressing reason to change. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I can think of 

several academic reasons, but no real reality 

check. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Any -- 

 DR. MAURO: Mark, this is John, 

and the only thing, this came from an 

outsider looking at the flow, I don't know 

the rate at which new cases are coming in, 

but right now, you know, in terms of the 

percent that was reviewed versus the percent 

that have been adjudicated, we are at 1 
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percent. 

 Assuming that we continue at 60 

per year, that's what we are doing, 60 cases 

per year, that would -- you know, we would be 

holding at 1 percent if the number of 

adjudicated cases is increasing at 600 per 

year. 

 So, there's a way to get a handle 

on whether or not the throughput, the flow 

rate that we are currently doing, 60 per 

year, is, in fact, sufficient that when we 

are done, which I presume will be, you know, 

five years from now, will we have achieved 

the goal of 2-1/2 percent? 

 I think that's another question. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

 DR. MAURO: And, you may want to 

ask NIOSH to see, you know, if the flow is 

coming in much slower, then the 60 per year 

may very well -- because right now we are at 

1 percent, and if we are holding at that 

pace, you know, we're going to start to get 
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higher than 1 percent, in other words -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

 DR. MAURO: -- there's only 1,000 

a year, instead of 6,000 a year come in, 

then, you know, we will be catching up to the 

2-1/2 percent eventually. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Catching up, 

right, yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: And, it's my 

observation that we probably are. I don't 

remember those numbers, and I'm really sorry 

I don't have the -- well, my suspicion is 

that the flash drive I have here is probably 

not the one with the most recent information 

on it, but there's certainly been a leveling. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: And, you know, we 

are looking in terms of hundreds instead of 

thousands. 

 DR. MAURO: I seem to recall 

Larry's -- I don't know if it was Larry gave 

the last presentation, was it 200 a month of 
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 MEMBER MUNN: That sounds really 

close to what my memory is. 

 DR. MAURO: Yes, which makes it 

about 2,000 a year, which means we will catch 

up a little bit. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: Correct, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We'll close a 

little. 

 DR. MAURO: Yes we will close the 

gap a bit. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And, I would 

love to, you know, like you said, John, this 

definitely could be, I mean, a math problem 

here, but, you know, the sort of unknown 

factor is, is this pipeline of 45 to 50 of 

the best-estimate cases available. 

 DR. MAURO: Yes, that's true. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And, that 

available part has been a bugaboo for us. I 
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mean, it's been a tricky thing, because of 

the ongoing PER reviews. I know that for 

the 11th set, Stu, basically, sent us all the 

best-estimate cases, and we were barely able 

to get 25 cases for the review, you know? 

 DR. MAURO: Gotcha. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, I think, 

you know, I don't know that we can increase 

the flow. You know, I'd love to, but, you 

know, slightly increase it, catch up a little 

faster, but I just don't think we are going 

to have the cases there yet. 

 MEMBER MUNN: I don't see any 

reason to expect that. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, and I 

don't want to review a lot of underestimates, you know, I think we've got to 

target where we want to target, so we are 

going to have to, you know, we are going to 

have to pace it out like this, and maybe 
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revisit it, you know, every six months or so 

and see how we are doing. 

 MEMBER MUNN: We may even find 

ourselves in a situation where we have to use 

more than one set as the seed material to get 

the grouping that we want, to have an 

adequate number of best-estimate cases. It's 

just -- that's reality. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Yes. So, 

I think that's -- Brad or Mike, do you have 

any comments? I think my report right now is 

that we are going to stand with our current 

policy and the current rate, and with the 

explanations we've just offered here. 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: I have no problem 

with that, heading forward as you've been 

speaking earlier here. We may have to adjust 

later on and so forth, and I don't -- my 

issue is, Mark, is with the cases, and we 

discussed this in the last Dose 

Reconstruction Committee. So many times, I 

guess I'm looking at the Q&A a little bit, 
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because many times when we've brought up 

issues they've said, well, you know, we never 

really did anything with this because this 

case was compensated. 

 My issue is, is if that's the 

case, what's happening to the ones below 

that, that are not -- you know, how are we 

taking this information that we are finding 

from these dose reconstruction reviews and so 

forth, and how is it playing back to the 

cases that aren't being compensated? 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I think 

that's -- yes, that's a fair question, Brad, 

but I think we are -- we have accounted for 

that in one respect, we've asked that part of 

our criteria is to focus our selection on 

newer cases, cases that have -- 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- been done 

more recently. So, if we don't see changes 

being made, then we are picking that up in 

our audit, you know. 
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 In other words, you know, NIOSH 

indicated that they've modified a policy or 

procedure, and then we review another case 

from the same site that was done, you know, a 

few years later, and it's still the same, 

then, you know -- 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- so we have 

to track that, I agree. 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right, it's just, 

you know, this has been something that has 

been coming up, and as we are talking about 

looking down, forward down the road, as John 

and also you and Wanda were saying, we may 

have to change our review a little bit to 

adjust for that, for things that we are 

seeing or whatever, because, you know, as the 

cases -- and I just want them to keep that in 

the back of our minds. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, reflect 

back on what we are seeing in our tracking. 

 The other thing I will mention is, 
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the Board next week, is this question of 

adding in the dose reconstruction notes, and 

I think once again I got it kind of from 

NIOSH, but I do want to put it on the Board 

record again, because I feel like that was -- 

this is something committed to before, you 

know, this idea. And, I think John might 

have said it at one of the meetings, that, 

you know, this is the idea of -- and getting 

back to what Brad was just discussing -- the 

idea of, you know, showing your work, you 

know, if it's all there, and we have 

something that years later from now can be 

looked at in the archive, and you know 

exactly how someone did a dose 

reconstruction, that's sort of what we are 

getting at here. 

 And so, that was one of our 

findings in this first 100 cases report, and 

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going forward. That will help look at that 
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that, you know, were these changes made, and 

are they adjusted, you know. 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right, and I 

agree with you. I know, too, that this was 

committed to a while back, too, but we still 

have not seen that, and it makes it very 

difficult to be able to go back, yes, this 

OTIB, but this changed, and so forth like 

that. 

 So, if we know the process, I 

think that it will beneficial. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

 MEMBER CLAWSON: To be able to do 

that. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. But, as 

far as the selection criteria, I think -- 

Mike, do you have any comments on what we 

talked about for selection? I think we are 

okay. 

 MEMBER GIBSON: No, not on the 

selection criteria. 
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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MEMBER GIBSON: I do agree with 

Brad, that, you know, I know NIOSH changes 

their policies and procedures, and all of 

that, but there is still that issue of the 

raw basic data that could be flawed from the 

plants that they used, even though they 

approved their process. 

 So, I agree, we need to keep an 

eye on that in the future. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And, we are 

looking at that with different prongs, too. 

We have our SEC process, certainly, addresses 

that on many of them, not all, but many of 

them. 

 And, John, alluded to these many 

set profile reviews that we've sort of picked 

up and said, well, wait a second, some of 

these sites we only look at one case for 

them, let's just look at the whole profile, 

instead of, you know, making a mini site 

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case, so that, I think that -- we've asked 

SC&A to kind of go deeper than just did you 

follow the procedure on those types of 

things, because of that concern that you just 

mentioned, Mike, that we want to know, you 

know, the background basis for all the cases 

done on this, since often times it's a 

matrix, as John described. 

 Okay, so we'll leave -- that will 

be my report on the selection criteria, and I 

think -- I think that closes it out, unless 

there's any other comments. 

 MEMBER MUNN: The big concern I 

think was the letter. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes, and 

thank you all for -- I'm sorry to send it out 

so late, but I tried my best. 

 MEMBER MUNN: That's quite all 

right, it happens to all of us. My apologies 

for not having gotten to it last night, but 

things -- 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know, and 
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you've got other things on your mind. I'm 

sorry, Wanda. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, that's quite 

all right. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, Ted, 

anything else for the record? 

 MR. KATZ: No, I think well done, 

and I'm glad this will be closed out at the 

next Board meeting then. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I will 

make these few modifications we discussed, 

and send it around to all Board members 

indicating that for the report that it's 

coming as a Subcommittee proposal. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Great. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think we are 

ready to adjourn. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Excellent. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

 MR. KATZ: Thank you, everybody. 

 DR. MAURO: Bye. Take care. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you for your 
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participation. Bye-bye. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Bye. 

 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

was went off the record at 11:57 a.m.)