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certified by the Chair of the Procedures Subcommittee for accuracy at this time. The reader 

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1

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1

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PROCEDURES REVIEW

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

JUNE 8, 2010

+ + + + +

The Subcommittee convened in the 

Zurich Room of the Cincinnati Airport 

Marriott, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron, 

Kentucky, at 9:30 a.m., Wanda Munn, Chair, 

presiding.

PRESENT:

WANDA I. MUNN, Chair

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member*

MARK GRIFFON, Member*

RICHARD LEMEN, Member

PAUL L. ZIEMER, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH contractor

HANS BEHLING, SC&A*

KATHY BEHLING, SC&A*

LIZ BRACKETT, ORAU*

EMILY HOWELL, HHS

JENNY LIN, HHS*

STEPHEN MARSCHKE, SC&A

JOHN MAURO, SC&A*

JIM NETON, DCAS*

STEVE OSTROW, SC&A*

MATTHEW SMITH, ORAU*

DAVE SUNDIN, DCAS

ELYSE THOMAS, ORAU

LEROY TURNER, DCAS 

*Participating via telephone
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Call to Order and Welcome 6

Roll Call 6

Agenda Overview 8

OTIB-0019 15

 Action Item 17

PR-12 Status 48, 65

and PROC-97

PROC-95 19, 49

Report 0044 49

 Action Item 83

TIB-013 88

 Action Item 93

TIB-049-01 94

 Action Item 95

OTIB-0054 99

 Action Item 99

PROC-42 99

 Action Item 104

 Action Item 106

TIB-010 107

 Action Item 107
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 Action Item 112

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

Draft format for tracking page proposal 113

Procedure archive document 121

 Action Item 122

OTIB-0029-02 responses 131

 Action Item 135

Status of the database update 146

on program limits and hot links

Verify OTIB-0051-01 link is complete 149

and the item closed

 Action Item 149

OTIB-0021-02, response to SC&A 150

calculation differences sources,

and OTIB-0021-04, response to

the documentation question

 Action Item 150

Transfer acceptance complete 152

for TBD-6000-06

Status of OTIB-0070-15 152

 Action Item 153

Scheduling of Next Meeting 153

OTIB-0029 159

 Action Item 159

Further agenda items 160, 182
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5

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

PERs 163

OTIB-0014 and PER-004 164

TIB-014 177

 Action Item 177

 Action Item 181

Adjournment 199
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:31 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: Good morning and 

4 welcome, everyone in the room and on the line, 

5 to the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker 

6 Health. This is the Procedures Subcommittee.

7 We will begin with roll call, 

8 beginning with Board members in the room.

9 CHAIR MUNN: This is Wanda Munn, 

10 Chair of the Subcommittee on Procedures.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Paul Ziemer, 

12 member of the Subcommittee.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: Richard Lemen, 

14 member of the Subcommittee.

15 MR. KATZ: And then on the line, 

16 Board members?

17 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, 

18 member of the Subcommittee.

19 MR. KATZ: And do we have Mark or 

20 Bob Presley?

21 (No response.)
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1 Okay. Then the NIOSH ORAU team in 

2 the room?

3 MR. SUNDIN: This is Dave Sundin, 

4 Deputy Director of DCAS.

5 MS. THOMAS: Elyse Thomas, ORAU.

6 MR. KATZ: And on the line, NIOSH 

7 ORAU team?

8 MR. SMITH: This is Matthew Smith, 

9 ORAU team.

10 MR. KATZ: Okay. And then SC&A in 

11 the room?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Steve Marschke.

13 MR. KATZ: And SC&A on the line?

14 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A.

15 DR. OSTROW: Steve Ostrow.

16 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry. Steve 

17 Ostrow, and then?

18 DR. H. BEHLING: Hans Behling, 

19 SC&A.

20 MS. K. BEHLING: Kathy Behling.

21 MR. KATZ: Hans and Kathy Behling.
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1 Welcome, all of you.

2 And then do we have any members of 

3 the public?

4 (No response.)

5 Then how about people working for 

6 HHS or other agencies or contractors to the 

7 agencies? In the room?

8 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS.

9 MS. ADAMS: Nancy Adams, NIOSH 

10 contractor.

11 MR. KATZ: And on the line?

12 MS. LIN: Jenny Lin, HHS.

13 MR. KATZ: Okay, that does it.

14 Wanda, do you want to talk a bit 

15 about the agenda? And then I will explain 

16 about this training session coming up.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I do.

18 I sent the agenda out last week. 

19 I am assuming that everyone has it in hand and 

20 has an idea what we anticipate covering. As 

21 is often the case with these Procedures 
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1 agendas, we do not always have the responses 

2 that we anticipated or have not moved as 

3 forward as we would like with some of the 

4 items that are listed.

5 So our times that are shown on the 

6 agenda are not times certain. They are rough 

7 estimates made by me and are likely to be 

8 overridden at any moment.

9 Our primary goal this morning is 

10 to have as much instruction as we can get with 

11 respect to the new electronic database that 

12 has been in process for several months. Now 

13 that we have the folks here to show us where 

14 we are at that stage, we want to have as many 

15 people as possible familiar with how this is 

16 going to operate, first of all, how it is now, 

17 then how it is going to operate, and get a 

18 better feel for who has responsibility for 

19 seeing that these fields of data, which we 

20 anticipate being a long-term archive, are 

21 properly maintained.
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1 I really don't have any way to 

2 help folks on the phone follow us other than 

3 oral instructions that we are going to have 

4 from our IT experts who are here to give us 

5 their view and to show us how to get to where 

6 we need to be with this new process.

7 If anyone has any addition to the 

8 agenda, then let me know at any time and we 

9 will make a note of that. Otherwise, we will 

10 make an attempt to follow what we have in 

11 front of us.

12 Anyone who doesn't have that 

13 agenda and needs it, please let us know. We 

14 will try to email a copy to you.

15 MEMBER GRIFFON: Hey, Wanda, this 

16 is Mark Griffon. I just wanted to let you 

17 know that I'm on the line.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you, Mark. I'm 

19 certainly glad you are here. I don't know how 

20 much instruction you have had with this new 

21 system, but I hope you are able to follow 
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1 along from there.

2 MEMBER GRIFFON: No, I will try to 

3 follow along.

4 CHAIR MUNN: All right. That's 

5 great.

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: Thank you.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Please don't 

8 hesitate, you and Mike, don't hesitate to let 

9 us know if you have some question or if your 

10 system has a major hiccup while we are trying 

11 to go through this.

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: All right. Thank 

13 you.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Thanks.

15 Now who is going to lead off with 

16 where we are, how we begin. And let's start 

17 at the very beginning, so that those of us who 

18 are not in the room especially will be able to 

19 get the proper screen up.

20 MR. KATZ: Okay. So before we go, 

21 actually, so we are about to march into 
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1 this --

2 CHAIR MUNN: Go ahead.

3 MR. KATZ: So before we do this, 

4 let me just say this is really an 

5 administrative session, this training. It 

6 doesn't need to be transcribed from this 

7 point. Leroy Turner expects that this will 

8 range anywhere from half an hour to an hour. 

9 So we can stop transcription. Of course, the 

10 lines will stay open. We will resume 

11 transcription once we get into the substance 

12 of the Subcommittee again and are finished 

13 with this administrative session.

14 So I just wanted to say that for 

15 the record, and then you guys can march along.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you.

17 My personal guess is that Mr. 

18 Turner is being extremely optimistic, but we 

19 will see how we go.

20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

21 matter went off the record at 9:37 a.m. and 
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1 resumed at 1:40 p.m.)

2

3

4

5

6

7

8 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

9 (1:40 p.m.)

10 MR. KATZ: Good afternoon.

11 We are just reconvening after 

12 lunch break.

13 Let me check with folks on the 

14 line. Board members Mike Gibson and Mark 

15 Griffon, are you with us?

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I'm here, 

17 Ted.

18 MR. KATZ: Okay, Mark.

19 MEMBER GIBSON: And I'm here, Ted.

20 MR. KATZ: And Mike. Great.

21 And, John, do we have you and the 
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1 Behlings?

2 DR. MAURO: Yes, John here.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay.

4 DR. OSTROW: Hi, Ted. Steve 

5 Ostrow, also.

6 MR. KATZ: Oh, great. Hi, Steve.

7 DR. OSTROW: Hi.

8 MR. KATZ: Okay. I think we are 

9 essentially done with our administrative 

10 session, training on the new database. We are 

11 going to proceed, then, with items on the 

12 agenda.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you, Ted. You 

14 are always such an incurable optimist.

15 MR. KATZ: So our transcript 

16 begins now, in effect. Thank you.

17 CHAIR MUNN: I want to make sure 

18 before we ever get started that everyone 

19 either is online with the new database or is 

20 in the process of getting there right now, so 

21 that we will know where we are.
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1 DR. MAURO: Wanda, this is John.

2 When we broke for lunch, I was 

3 looking at a database, but it was an older 

4 one. And I found the one that I should be 

5 looking at which does contain the information 

6 that Steve was referring me to. So I just 

7 wanted to let you know that I guess there is 

8 more than one on there. There is the most 

9 recent version of the Access database, and I'm 

10 online now. I don't know if anyone else had 

11 the same problems I did.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: I think they were 

13 updating it as we talked this morning, so we 

14 kept getting different versions. They updated 

15 mine because I kept getting different 

16 versions.

17 CHAIR MUNN: But he was on the 

18 Access database.

19 I think we are going to try to 

20 work on the other database, John. Are you up 

21 with it?
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes, I'm looking at it 

2 right now, the one that we were talking about 

3 when we broke.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

5 DR. MAURO: Yes, and I have the 

6 correct one in front of me with the most 

7 recent information that Steve was referring me 

8 to regarding, I guess it was OTIB-0019, where 

9 Steve was just pointing out that, yes, in 

10 fact, it is closed based on more recent 

11 information that I did not have on the old 

12 database, but I have it here on the correct 

13 database I should be looking at.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Can we safely say 

15 that you verified that 19 does, in fact, 

16 incorporate the answers to the questions that 

17 were raised in 95?

18 DR. MAURO: I could speak to that 

19 to the extent, yes, we have looked at the 

20 response. Actually, on 10/4/2008, the Work 

21 Group directive was closed decision, but NIOSH 
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1 needs to label the related link in accordance 

2 with the new scheme, which goes back to other 

3 material. So, I mean, that was the 

4 recommendation of the Work Group, and that is 

5 the reason why it is closed. That is my 

6 understanding.

7 Steve, do I have it right?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: That's my 

9 understanding also.

10 DR. MAURO: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Now the related 

12 link that John was referring to is, again, one 

13 of those hotlinks which is in the Access 

14 database. It is not yet active in the new 

15 database.

16 CHAIR MUNN: How are we going to 

17 make sure that it is active in the new 

18 database?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I think Leroy and 

20 his people have been working on getting this 

21 linkage and the attachments, how to get the 
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1 attachments. That is part of what we 

2 discussed this morning. And I think that is 

3 in the works as we are working.

4 CHAIR MUNN: So we need to 

5 maintain this item on our tracking list until 

6 next time so that we can make sure that the 

7 appropriate links have been incorporated, 

8 correct?

9 MR. MARSCHKE: We need to make 

10 sure, yes, but it is more of a global issue 

11 than just an OTIB-0019 issue. It is 

12 basically: make sure that the new database has 

13 the hotlinks capabilities.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

15 DR. MAURO: But, Wanda, my 

16 question now, we have in front of us the 

17 Access database, which is the one we were 

18 using for quite some time. But this morning 

19 was a training session on -- what is that 

20 referred to as, SQL database? Is that 

21 something different? That's a different 
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1 database which we are trying to transition 

2 into, but we're not quite there yet, is that 

3 correct?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: We're using the new 

5 database, John.

6 DR. MAURO: Say it again?

7 MR. MARSCHKE: We're using the new 

8 database, what you called the SQL database --

9 DR. MAURO: Yes.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, that is what 

11 we are trying to use this afternoon.

12 DR. MAURO: Oh, and that is what I 

13 have in front of me then. Okay. I wasn't 

14 quite sure whether this is the Access database 

15 or the SQL database. So I am looking at this 

16 new database that we were trained on this 

17 morning.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: That's exactly 

19 right.

20 DR. MAURO: Thank you. I didn't 

21 quite understand that.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: And now part of my 

2 training has not led me to be able to pull up 

3 any document that I want at any time, but I am 

4 sure sometime during the afternoon I will get 

5 accustomed to doing that.

6 The second item on our carryovers 

7 was PR-12 status and complete coverage of 

8 PROC-97 -- sorry.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: Did you tell Mark 

10 what we did? I think he got off the phone and 

11 didn't know what you did with 95. Is that 

12 right, Mark?

13 Hello?

14 MEMBER GRIFFON: I'm still on. I 

15 was actually logging onto the network. So I 

16 was trying to catch up a little.

17 MR. KATZ: So, Mark, the status 

18 for PROC-95 is, and there was some discussion 

19 at the beginning of this meeting, is that the 

20 findings that were transferred, in effect, are 

21 closed. They were closed on PROC-95 and they 
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1 don't need to show as open on 95 or whatever 

2 it was, 18, 19.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: PROC-95 had three 

4 findings. One of them was shown as closed. 

5 Two of them were shown as transferred.

6 MR. KATZ: Right.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: The one that was 

8 transferred to 19 now should be closed. The 

9 one that was transferred to RPRT 0044 is 

10 still, basically, transferred to RPRT 0044.

11 MR. KATZ: Oh, thanks for that 

12 distinction.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: If you pull up 

14 PROC-95 --

15 CHAIR MUNN: And how do you do 

16 that?

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Go up to the top 

18 left. There's a box called Document Search. 

19 And you put in, like Leroy is showing you, you 

20 put in a 95 up there.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: Top right, you 
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1 mean.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Top right. Did I 

3 say, top left?

4 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, you know, my 

6 left.

7 CHAIR MUNN: The other left.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: The other left.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MEMBER LEMEN: And you put in 

11 PROC.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Or you can put in 

13 0095.

14 CHAIR MUNN: I've done that and 

15 what I get is the document.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: And then you click 

17 on the document. Then you can click on the

18 Board Review Comments Admin.

19 And you will see, basically, that 

20 there are two of them that have been 

21 transferred. The top one was the one that we 
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1 were talking about and has been transferred to 

2 OTIB-0019. The bottom one looks like it was 

3 transferred to RPRT 0044, and RPRT 0044 is on 

4 the agenda for further talking this afternoon, 

5 for later this afternoon.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: Wait a second.

7 My 0019, yes, it finally came up. 

8 It was slow.

9 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Steve, for 

10 clarification.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: Where did you get 

12 that --

13 MEMBER GRIFFON: Let me 

14 understand, though. When did we close 

15 TIB-0019? I'm still waiting. It's pulling 

16 up, you know. But when did we close TIB-0019? 

17 Did we close it in this meeting? We haven't 

18 discussed anything here, right?

19 CHAIR MUNN: Go ahead, Steve.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: It was closed in 

21 October of 2008.
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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. So at a 

2 previous Work Group meeting we closed it.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

5 MEMBER GRIFFON: All right. Not 

6 at one of these technical phone calls which 

7 happened in between?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: No.

9 CHAIR MUNN: No.

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. That's all 

11 I wanted to know.

12 CHAIR MUNN: And the outstanding 

13 item that we had that was transferred to it 

14 was just that. It was just an outstanding 

15 item. We had cleared it, but we didn't act on 

16 closing it, based on the fact that it had 

17 already been covered by 19.

18 Did that make sense?

19 MEMBER GIBSON: Wanda, this is 

20 Mike. Let me just ask a question for my 

21 clarity.
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1 So, the Work Group agreed to close 

2 the issue because SC&A reviewed it or because 

3 they brought their recommendations or findings 

4 back and we agreed that it has been done? Or 

5 whichever Work Group this was.

6 CHAIR MUNN: The findings were 

7 based on the fact that they were duplicate 

8 findings, essentially, for 19 and for 95. On 

9 95, we were carrying them as open items. 

10 Nineteen was redone and reviewed, and two of 

11 the three items that were being carried from 

12 95 had already been closed by the actions that 

13 had been taken in OTIB-0019.

14 So, that leaves one outstanding 

15 action item, one finding, PROC-95, which is 

16 currently transferred to RPRT 0044, which we 

17 are going to cover later.

18 MEMBER GIBSON: Okay. So, I'm not 

19 trying to cause problems here. I am just 

20 trying to get it clear in my head.

21 When you say it was reviewed, it 
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1 was reviewed by SC&A and the Work Group or 

2 SC&A reviewed it and we just said, okay, when 

3 you review it, it is done?

4 CHAIR MUNN: SC&A and NIOSH agreed 

5 that the item had been covered in 19.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: And, Mike, 19 was 

7 talked about, again, back in October of 2008. 

8 NIOSH gave -- there was quite a bit of back 

9 and forth on -- I mean, are you asking about 

10 19, why 19 was closed?

11 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: There was quite a 

13 bit of back and forth between, if you pull up 

14 the record on 19, there was quite a bit of 

15 back and forth between NIOSH and SC&A. The 

16 last one, NIOSH gave a response on October 

17 1st, 2008. SC&A reviewed that on October 

18 10th, 2008.

19 And if you look in the record of 

20 this one, you will see that SC&A recommended 

21 to the Board that this issue be closed. Then, 
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1 there was, on October 14th of 2008, there was 

2 a Work Group or Subcommittee meeting at which 

3 the Work Group agreed to close this issue. 

4 So, that is really, in kind of a nutshell, how 

5 the TBD-019 issue was closed.

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: Steve, can you 

7 help me? I pulled up OTIB-0019. How do I 

8 view the details again on the new data? I'm 

9 just trying to find the details of what you're 

10 talking about, the step-by-step, you know, 

11 what happened, what Work Group.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: First, when you 

13 pull up 19, you don't see any findings. 

14 Basically, the findings status filter box kind 

15 of on the righthand side, it says -- probably 

16 the default is all except closed. You have to 

17 change that so that it shows the closed. You 

18 can either select all messages, which is 

19 probably what you should select, and then the 

20 closed issues will be displayed. Then you can 

21 click on that closed issue, and that will get 
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1 you, in the new database, that will give you 

2 the history.

3 MEMBER GRIFFON: All right. I'm 

4 trying to find that filter. So, it is not the 

5 document status filter. It's not the document 

6 type filter.

7 CHAIR MUNN: It's not the assigned 

8 role filter.

9 MEMBER GRIFFON: Where are you?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Where are you? 

11 Where are you?

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: I'm on the main 

13 screen right now showing all the documents.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, showing all the 

15 documents.

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: So, search for 

17 0019?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Search for 0019.

19 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: And then, 

21 basically, the 0019 --
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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: Then look at the 

2 filters there.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: And then, 

4 basically, you have a screen that shows 

5 document title, and it says, basically, 

6 OTIB-0019.

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Click on that.

9 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. Now what?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Now click on Board 

11 Review Comments.

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: Admin? Board 

13 Review Comments Admin?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Exactly.

15 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. Oh, 

16 comment made by, and then you --

17 MEMBER LEMEN: No, no, you've got 

18 to change the filter.

19 MEMBER GRIFFON: Oh, it's closed, 

20 you're saying, and now you have to --

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Now change that to 
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1 All Messages.

2 MEMBER GRIFFON: Messages. Okay. 

3 That's what I couldn't figure out. Okay. 

4 That's the one I lost.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: And now you can 

6 click anywhere on that and you will get the 

7 history.

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: All right. Thank 

9 you. That's what I was, that last step I was 

10 messing up. Okay.

11 CHAIR MUNN: I'm still not there 

12 because I keep messing up the same thing, 

13 getting the wrong filter.

14 MEMBER LEMEN: No, no, type in 

15 0019.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I've done that 

17 too many times.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: This is the blind 

19 leading the blind, but I will try.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: Get that document. 
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1 Hit it. Well, hit it. Now, hit that.

2 CHAIR MUNN: That's where I missed 

3 it.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is this on the 

5 transcript or is this a sidebar?

6 MR. KATZ: Unfortunately, we're on 

7 the transcript right now.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: Hit all messages.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you. This is 

10 the one --

11 MEMBER LEMEN: Now you are there. 

12 The blind leading the blind.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, I have a 

15 question when we have a chance.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Go ahead, Paul.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is just for 

18 clarity. Starting with the PROC-95 document, 

19 the second frame down, where it discusses --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: PROC-95 or PROC --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think I'm still 
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1 in 95. I'm trying to get clarity in moving 

2 from one to the other. PROC-95 says it's 

3 being transferred because it is being 

4 addressed under OTIB-0019. Do you see where 

5 it says that?

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I see that.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Now I think at the 

8 time, if that was entered on 1/14/2010, in 

9 fact, it was already closed.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, correct, as I 

11 understand it.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, I'm wondering, 

13 are we allowed to go back and edit this? I 

14 mean, should we edit it to say, because it was 

15 addressed and closed under --

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, one thing I 

17 think we need to do, I don't know. I would 

18 suggest, one suggestion I would make is that 

19 the Subcommittee consider changing the status 

20 of this.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, yes.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: And that can be 

2 part, you can add that as part of the 

3 explanation.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, we can do 

5 that down here.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: We can do that as, 

7 okay, we have decided, because it already has 

8 been addressed in 19 --

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. Got you.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: -- the Subcommittee 

11 has decided to close this.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, and just 

13 leave this as it is.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: And just leave it 

15 as it is.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Then the only 

17 other thing, and maybe Leroy can answer this, 

18 where did these times of 12:00, I guess that's 

19 12:00. Is that 12:00 noon or 12:00 midnight?

20 MR. TURNER: 12:00 a.m.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, is that noon 
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1 or midnight?

2 MR. TURNER: That's midnight.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay.

4 MR. TURNER: That's when we do our 

5 best work.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: The same here.

8 I don't think SC&A made their 

9 recommendation at 12:00 midnight. So, where 

10 do these times come from?

11 MR. TURNER: That date/time field 

12 that they have in Access doesn't have a time 

13 on it.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, that's a 

15 default?

16 MR. TURNER: That's a default.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do we really need 

18 the time in this field?

19 MR. TURNER: You don't have to 

20 display the time.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, but I think 
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1 what has happened is it has forced us to be 

2 out of sequence.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, we had to give 

4 Leroy a hierarchy as to, when two boxes or two 

5 issues have the same timestamp, which one gets 

6 first.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: It was an SC&A 

8 recommendation. Then, there's a Work Group 

9 action.

10 MR. TURNER: Right now, how it 

11 goes into the system, it would be timestamped. 

12 We don't have to show that to you, but first13 in would be first displayed.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, you see, here 

15 we have two which have identical timestamps.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: They can't both 

17 be --

18 MR. TURNER: But those are 

19 actually pulled in from your Access database.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

21 MR. TURNER: Because your Access 
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1 doesn't have those.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, it defaulted?

3 MR. TURNER: We could go back and 

4 put in a different -- if you wanted to list 

5 out what order you wanted these in, we could 

6 put those times in for you. But from this 

7 time forth --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: It won't be a 

9 problem.

10 MR. TURNER: -- it won't be a 

11 problem for the simple fact that the first 

12 comment in is going to be the first one that 

13 is shown.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay.

15 MR. TURNER: So, if you happened 

16 to put a comment ahead of another one, then 

17 that will probably just be an email to us to 

18 change that certain field to put it in the 

19 right order.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: These last two are 

21 clearly out of order.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Can we go in and 

2 edit these existing fields, Leroy? Or will we 

3 be able to go in and edit these existing 

4 fields? And if we can, will that change the 

5 datestamp on those fields?

6 MR. TURNER: I'm going to find out 

7 right now.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Or can you just go 

9 ahead and change the datestamp now?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, one way or the 

11 other, change the datestamp.

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: Can I ask a 

13 question?

14 CHAIR MUNN: Please.

15 MEMBER GRIFFON: I'm back on 

16 TIB-019. When I did that, the thing you told 

17 me to do, you know, remove the filter and show

18 all messages, I'm showing, the best I can 

19 understand, I am only showing one finding for 

20 TIB-019

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.
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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: So, there is only 

2 one finding on your TIB-019?

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

4 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. I thought 

5 that you just said that two were transferred 

6 from 95.

7 CHAIR MUNN: No. One was closed.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: One was closed.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Two transferred, 

10 but the other one was transferred to a 

11 different --

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay.

13 MR. KATZ: To report 0044.

14 MEMBER GRIFFON: So there is only 

15 one table finding on TIB-019?

16 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: All right. 

18 Thanks.

19 MR. TURNER: To answer the 

20 question about editing, once it's done, I'm 

21 actually not the reviewer. So, I don't have 
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1 the capability to edit those. But if it is 

2 your comment, you can edit. Since there's 

3 only going to be a small group of folks that 

4 are able to put it in there --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I guess we 

6 talked this morning.

7 MR. TURNER: -- then it will be 

8 you folks --

9 MR. MARSCHKE: We will be the 

10 administrators, and we will be able to go in 

11 there and edit, including the datestamp.

12 MR. TURNER: Yes.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: So, we can take 

14 care of getting things in order. It looks 

15 like there are some that are superfluous which 

16 don't have any information. It just has a 

17 subject. It doesn't have any -- so, there may 

18 be some cleanup, I would expect, after the 

19 transition.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Let's try not to 

21 clean up as much as we get squared away 
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1 properly in terms of, for example, we were 

2 just discussing, the sense this transaction 

3 had already transpired. Change from will to 

4 has.

5 Yes?

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I think the 

7 suggestion that was made is that we can bring 

8 that to closure here as an action on PROC-95 

9 simply by indicating that, in reviewing the 

10 record for PROC-95 and the record for 

11 OTIB-0019, that we recognize that that issue 

12 had already been closed at the time of 

13 transfer and, therefore, we can close it here. 

14 That would show as the final step here, I 

15 think is what Leroy is suggesting, right? Or 

16 maybe it was Steve that suggested it. We just 

17 show that as an action today because we have 

18 reviewed it, we recognize that it needs to 

19 show a closure rather than a transfer, and we 

20 can just do it.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Let us do it.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Can you --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: And how would you 

3 do that?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, there's a 

5 place here I see Add Response.

6 Leroy, can you bring up 95, 0095? 

7 You got it.

8 Go back up to the Review Document; 

9 hit the Review Document, that one, for the top 

10 one, the one that goes to 19. Go over and add 

11 a response. Can we add a response? Are you 

12 capable of adding a response over on the 

13 righthand side?

14 MR. TURNER: No, I'm not part of 

15 your Work Group.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: But it's got a 

17 little arrow, it's got a little hand there. 

18 Not that one. No, it doesn't do anything. 

19 You're not part of the Work Group.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Here, add Comment and 

21 Finding?
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: What we would do is 

2 we would add -- well, I can do it here, but 

3 nobody can see -- Paul can see me. What we 

4 would do here is we would add a response.

5 Now, Paul, do you want to compose 

6 a response? We can just add it here.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, my response 

8 would be that the Subcommittee has reviewed 

9 the previous comments on this finding, as well 

10 as the comments on OTIB-0019, and realizes 

11 that or realized that at the time this finding 

12 was transferred to OTIB-0019 that the issue 

13 had already been closed. Therefore, the 

14 Subcommittee recommends or the Subcommittee 

15 agrees to close the issue for PROC-95.

16 Give it about 30 minutes; I could 

17 probably express that in a better way.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and we do need 

19 to express it in just a slightly different 

20 way.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Therefore, this 
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1 issue should also be closed.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: That would carry 

3 today's time.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: And that should 

5 carry today's time. Now how do I get it in? 

6 Just enter --

7 MR. TURNER: There should be an 

8 add button next to it.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Add Response, 

10 obviously. And Change Status to --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: We don't have edit 

12 though.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, change that 

14 as proposed before. Okay, now we can click on 

15 this, and we can go down and we can see, 

16 well --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Will that change 

18 it for all of us now?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: It should be --

20 MR. TURNER: List it now.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: It's already 
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1 listed?

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do we have to 

3 refresh?

4 MR. TURNER: You might have to.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: It's up on the 

6 screen. Leroy has it up on the screen.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: So, it should be 

8 under 95, though, right?

9 MR. MARSCHKE: It's under 95.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is under 95. 

11 If you hit your refresh button, it will show 

12 up.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: That was quick. 

14 Oh, Steve Marschke.

15 MR. TURNER: What we will end up 

16 doing is for the prompt, we will actually make 

17 that the full Subcommittee. We will give you 

18 the ability to edit --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, sometimes I'm 

20 speaking for the Board. When I'm sitting here 

21 in the Subcommittee meetings, I'm speaking for 
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1 the Board. When I'm entering SC&A's --

2 MR. TURNER: We'll give you the 

3 choice to decide which one.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: You have to give me 

5 the choice? Okay. All right. Sometimes I 

6 wear two hats.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: I see typos in 

8 now. Is there a way to edit these?

9 MR. MARSCHKE: I probably can edit 

10 them.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Like those typos?

12 MR. TURNER: I can't see a way to 

13 edit because I'm not part of the Board, but 

14 there will be a way.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: Mine just came 

16 after that.

17 MR. TURNER: It depends on what 

18 your actual role is.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, I just 

20 entered one, and I don't know how -- so, I 

21 should be able to edit what I just entered, I 
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1 would think, but I can't view.

2 The closed status didn't stick, 

3 either. Maybe I don't have quite -- I must 

4 not have the proper authority. Well, wait a

5 minute. Yes, I do have because it went away 

6 because now it is closed. Okay, so now it is 

7 closed. Okay, it worked.

8 MR. TURNER: So, to go in and 

9 edit, we'll put that ability to go back in and 

10 edit.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, that would be 

12 good.

13 MR. TURNER: Right now it is 

14 there. It is just that --

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, we need to be 

16 able to edit it. I type with all my thumbs.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Steve, do you want to 

18 read that one more time?

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do you have a copy 

20 of it there?

21 CHAIR MUNN: When we say at the 
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1 time this issue was transferred to OTIB-0019 

2 the finding was already closed, shouldn't we 

3 say by that document?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: The OTIB-0019 

5 finding was already closed. Well, the finding 

6 wasn't closed by the document. The finding 

7 was --

8 MEMBER LEMEN: Closed by a 

9 decision made by the Board.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: The OTIB-0019 

11 finding was closed by the Board or by the 

12 Subcommittee.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. Or we 

14 could say it had already been closed or 

15 something.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: The OTIB-0019 

17 finding had already been closed by --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, the OTIB-0019 

19 finding, yes. You want to be able to say that 

20 it was closed in connection with that other 

21 document, is that right?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

3 CHAIR MUNN: It had already been 

4 closed by OTIB-0019.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, not really 

6 OTIB-0019.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Under OTIB-0019.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: Under OTIB-0019 by 

9 action of the Subcommittee.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, that's good.

11 Therefore, this issue should also 

12 be closed for this document.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Right, for PROC-95.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Or, therefore, this 

16 PROC-95 issue should also be closed.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

18 I do like the way you can edit 

19 that; it pops into our screens.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that's much 

21 nicer.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: I can't edit it 

2 right now, but by the time we get to the next 

3 Subcommittee it should be --

4 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, you have 

5 changed it from what you just had.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: He can't do it 

7 right now.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, once I put it 

9 in, right now it's fixed.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes, but you can 

11 edit it.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: We can edit it once 

13 I get the capability. So, by the time we meet 

14 again --

15 MEMBER LEMEN: So, right now, it 

16 is just going to stay the way it is?

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Right now, it is 

18 going to stay the way you see it.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: That's fine.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: I've been writing 

21 down, and hopefully, I will get the --
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: You have the 

2 intent.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: I have the intent 

4 to make it clear that the OTIB-0019 issue was 

5 closed under OTIB-0019 discussions, and 

6 PROC-95 was closed under this action today.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Fine.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: Now we move to 

9 PR-12?

10 CHAIR MUNN: Now we can move to 

11 PR-12.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: So, to go up and 

13 get there, the best way is just to go to 

14 Document Search?

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is that where the 

16 other one was transferred?

17 CHAIR MUNN: No, this is the next 

18 item on our agenda.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, oh.

20 MEMBER LEMEN: So, wouldn't we 

21 just go 0012?
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, before we do 

2 that, are we finishing up the other transfer 

3 item on PROC-95?

4 CHAIR MUNN: No, we have it later 

5 in the --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, it's later.

7 CHAIR MUNN: We can do it now if 

8 we want to, as long as we're there.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, no. If it's 

10 later, that's fine.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Do you want to go to 

12 RPRT 0044?

13 DR. MAURO: Wanda, this is John.

14 While we're here, we are almost on 

15 the one-yard line on this. Okay, we do have 

16 some preliminary comments on OTIB -- I'm 

17 sorry, is it OTIB or the report?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: It's RP --

19 DR. MAURO: Yes, report, RPRT 

20 0044. That came in, finally, this weekend. 

21 So, that would sort of end our discussion of, 
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1 I guess it is, PROC-95. Do you want to just 

2 get that out of the way?

3 CHAIR MUNN: It would be a good 

4 idea. Why not do it now?

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Oh, I see. Go to 

6 that bottom line.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Go to your 

8 document list.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: The last time was 

10 3/23/2010. That was on 44, right?

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do we have 44?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: You don't have, I 

13 don't know that you will have anything on 44.

14 I don't know if I have enough. I 

15 have only made six copies. You'll have to 

16 share.

17 DR. MAURO: Steve, are you handing 

18 out Joyce's status report?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm handing out 

20 Joyce's status report. Mike and Mark, I have 

21 to apologize, I don't think you have a copy of 
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1 what we have just handed out.

2 Joyce has been reviewing Report 44 

3 for us. She provided us with a one-page 

4 status report of where she is in that review, 

5 so that we can report on it at this meeting. 

6 I have just handed that out to the people that 

7 are here in the room.

8 John, maybe you could forward it 

9 to Mike and Mark?

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, I can. I have it 

11 here. Yes, I have it on my main computer.

12 I would like to just point out, 

13 though, that this is a status report. This is 

14 not a White Paper. In fact, it is still 

15 undergoing review. We have a statistician 

16 looking at it, Harry Chmelynski.

17 So, we are only prepared today to 

18 sort of give you an overview of where we are 

19 on it. I guess the bottom line is we're in 

20 the home stretch. That is, I think a lot of 

21 the issues related to this Report 44 have been 
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1 resolved. We still have a couple of questions 

2 related to how the data are dealt with, 

3 certain aspects of how the data are dealt 

4 with.

5 This has to do with coworker 

6 models. It has to do with you have some 

7 numbers, some measurements, bioassay samples, 

8 for example, that are close to the low limits 

9 of detection, and they are sporadic. And you 

10 want to try to assign an intake to a worker. 

11 There are a lot of different statistical 

12 methods that can be used.

13 Joyce looked at this, and she 

14 feels that, to a large extent, the approach 

15 that has been adopted in Report 44, it looks 

16 fine. But she did have a couple of questions 

17 and has some requests for clarification.

18 That's where we are. Right now, 

19 that finding of Joyce, that has just been 

20 reported relatively recently. The status 

21 report is really not a deliverable yet.
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1 And I'm glad you have that piece 

2 of paper, and I will certainly forward it on 

3 to Mike and Mark.

4 But please bear in mind, though, 

5 that I don't think we are ready to give SC&A's 

6 official position because I would like -- by 

7 any chance, Steve, I just recently forwarded 

8 it to Harry. I would like him to look at it 

9 because it's not only an internal dosimetry 

10 question, it's a statistical question. I 

11 would like both of them to weigh in on this. 

12 So, that is why I am sort of reining in this 

13 and that. We are really not there yet.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, this is just 

15 the status update for this meeting. We will 

16 provide a report which will have a checklist 

17 in it.

18 I mean this does not follow our 

19 procedure. This handout that we gave today 

20 does not follow the SC&A procedure for 

21 reviewing procedures or documents, and it 
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1 doesn't have the checklist in it.

2 But when we produce the final 

3 report on this for the Report 44 review, we 

4 will have the normal format that is required 

5 by our procedures. It will include the 

6 checklist that we talked about this morning 

7 with the seven objectives, review objectives 

8 checked off, and so on and so forth.

9 But, again, this is just the 

10 status update for the Subcommittee.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Who has a 

12 question?

13 MEMBER LEMEN: My question -- this 

14 is Dick Lemen -- my question is, is there, as 

15 a new member, is there a procedure document or 

16 some basic document that explains when 

17 coworker data will be used and how it will be 

18 picked?

19 DR. MAURO: I guess I will take 

20 a --

21 MR. MARSCHKE: There's several. 
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1 That is more of a NIOSH, I would think at 

2 least.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes, it is really 

4 NIOSH. I will let NIOSH answer that.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes, it is a NIOSH 

6 question, I think.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: So, I need to ask 

9 NIOSH to answer for that. I wasn't meaning 

10 SC&A to answer that because I know it is a 

11 NIOSH question.

12 MS. THOMAS: I think we have Liz 

13 Brackett or Scott Siebert on the line, who can 

14 probably answer it better than I can.

15 MS. BRACKETT: Yes, this is Liz 

16 Brackett.

17 I don't remember the number off 

18 the top of my head. There are several 

19 different documents that kind of run through 

20 it. There is -- is it a plan or plan 19? I 

21 don't recall. There are some overarching 
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1 documents that is the plan, and then there are 

2 two, well, OTIB-0019 that we were talking 

3 about addresses internal dosimetry, and 

4 OTIB-0020 addresses external dosimetry. And I 

5 believe that both of them discuss under what 

6 circumstances they would be used.

7 Then, there are individual 

8 coworker studies, some that have been 

9 incorporated into the Site Profiles, which 

10 would also discuss when they might be used at 

11 a particular site.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: I guess I'm asking 

13 not for like OTIB-0019 or these where it has 

14 already been used. I guess my question is, is 

15 there a basic document like there was on 

16 surrogate data for coworker data?

17 MS. BRACKETT: Well, OTIB-0019 

18 isn't where -- it's not being used in 

19 OTIB-0019. That discusses how to do a 

20 coworker study.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, yes, I 
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1 understand. But what I'm saying is, unless I 

2 am totally out of place in what I'm asking, 

3 how do you determine, is there a document that 

4 says, okay, we don't have actual data on the 

5 workers, so we are going to use coworker data 

6 to assign to that worker? Do you have a 

7 document that says when you would do that and 

8 under what circumstances?

9 MS. BRACKETT: I think that the 

10 overarching document, and I can't recall the 

11 number of right now, I believe it is a plan. 

12 But that addresses the particular 

13 circumstances. It's not an extremely specific 

14 document, but I believe that it does discuss 

15 when you might do one.

16 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I guess the 

17 question is --

18 DR. NETON: This is Jim Neton. I 

19 have been lurking on the phone for a while.

20 But the document that Liz is 

21 talking about, she is correct, we would always 
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1 use a coworker model, if we had one, for 

2 workers who were not monitored, who had no 

3 monitoring data at all, but were, in our 

4 opinion, determined to have been exposed and 

5 should have been monitored.

6 Then the question becomes, what 

7 level of coworker dose does one assign? And 

8 then that becomes whether we would assign the 

9 50th percentile; the coworker model would be 

10 full distribution that was generated by that 

11 model or the 95th percentile.

12 And the document that Liz referred 

13 to has some general guidance as to what class 

14 of the workers we might apply that level of 

15 exposure. Of course, there's also another 

16 level of coworker. Well, it is not really 

17 coworker. It would be ambient environmental. 

18 Those are people who were probably not 

19 exposed in the plant, but just the general 

20 plant environmental conditions.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: I guess, my 
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1 question is maybe not specific enough. If you 

2 have a plant and you are using coworker data, 

3 is there some model or some decision logic 

4 that says how close the coworker has to be or 

5 the job title or anything like that?

6 DR. NETON: Okay, yes. The way we 

7 approach this, and that is covered probably in 

8 TIB-019 I guess, is that we decided early on 

9 in this program that we could not get that 

10 specific to do sort of a job exposure matrix11 type approach.

12 We generate the entire 

13 distribution of all the monitored workers 

14 using that as a cumulative probability 

15 distribution and then generate some 

16 statistical parameters from that, where there 

17 is the 50th, the geometric mean and the 

18 geometric standard deviation.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: Would that mean, 

20 then, that if you had a workforce, say, that 

21 had multiple operations and some of the 
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1 operations had the potential for high exposure 

2 -- let's not assign a number; let's just say 

3 high exposure -- other operations in the same 

4 facility had low exposure, and both the high5 exposure group and the low-exposure group had 

6 measurements, do you then take an average of 

7 that and assign it to those that don't have 

8 measurements?

9 DR. NETON: No, no. We would 

10 take, for example, if someone were, say, a 

11 security guard who was, clearly, present in 

12 the environment of the plant where exposures 

13 were possible, but it was on a somewhat 

14 sporadic basis, they would be assigned to the 

15 50th percentile of the distribution with a 

16 geometric standard deviation as their exposure 

17 on a year-by-year basis, if the data were that 

18 good. Or you would take someone else who may 

19 have been a chemical operator who was clearly 

20 exposed at the higher end, they would receive 

21 a 95th percentile constant for that year.
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I guess I am 

2 still confused as to what decision logic are 

3 you using. Have you written it down someplace 

4 so that a neophyte like me coming into this 

5 Board can read your decision logic and 

6 understand why you are doing it?

7 DR. NETON: Yes, there is a TIB 

8 out there -- I think it is a TIB; maybe it is 

9 a plan. But we can get you that document.

10 But it is somewhat generic. One 

11 needs to use some degree of professional 

12 judgment in making those decisions. I would 

13 propose that when we have decisions like that 

14 to be made, and it is not clear, it is not 

15 clear-cut, we would err on the side of the 

16 claimant and use the higher-level exposure.

17 And I think, to some extent, that 

18 has been borne out in the review of the 

19 individual dose reconstructions that have been 

20 done over the last several years.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I don't want 
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1 to slow today's meeting down, but if it would 

2 be possible to get that, so I could read it, 

3 maybe I can bring it up at the next Board 

4 meeting, if I have questions.

5 DR. MAURO: Dick, this is John 

6 Mauro.

7 You have raised the most important 

8 question on every SEC petition that has SC&A 

9 reviews. The question always is, are there 

10 adequate data to reconstruct the doses to 

11 workers who don't have an adequate amount of 

12 bioassay data, in other words.

13 So, that is always the most 

14 difficult question for all of us. That is, 

15 you have a facility that is very complex over 

16 time and in space and in job category. And 

17 the question, then, becomes, well, how are we 

18 going to reconstruct the internal doses to all 

19 workers for all times in a way that is 

20 claimant-favorable?

21 And the only way to do that is if 
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1 you have 100 percent data, that's great, but 

2 you never do. So, it is always necessary to 

3 use, to build some type of coworker model for 

4 those workers who were not adequately 

5 monitored, but perhaps should have been 

6 monitored.

7 And the SEC question that comes up 

8 time and time again is, let's take a look at 

9 the operations at the facility as a function 

10 of time, the type of campaign, the kinds of 

11 radionuclides. All the questions that go 

12 towards, okay, can we build a coworker model 

13 that is applicable to workers that worked in 

14 this facility that might have been exposed to 

15 this radionuclide over this time period?

16 And whether or not there is 

17 adequate data to build a coworker model for 

18 that particular box is always the difficult 

19 question. And I would say right now, that is 

20 a judgment call. That is, that is usually 

21 discussed between SC&A and NIOSH when we start 
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1 to sort out the data and put them into bins, 

2 and we start to get a sense of whether or not 

3 there might be a place where there's just too 

4 much missing data, and we just don't know 

5 enough about those workers and that facility 

6 for that radionuclide for that time period. 

7 And that's when, all of a sudden, you find 

8 yourself in a place where an SEC petition 

9 takes hold.

10 So, I think the question you have 

11 asked really goes to the heart of just about 

12 everything we do.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, that's why I 

14 am asking if there is a basic document that I 

15 can start with to understand the logic. The 

16 discussion so far makes a lot of sense to me, 

17 but doesn't answer the questions I have.

18 MR. SMITH: This is Matt Smith 

19 with the ORAU team.

20 The external site again, I would 

21 recommend OTIB-0020 as a document to take a 
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1 look at.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: OTIB-0020?

3 MR. SMITH: Yes.

4 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry. Who is this 

5 speaking?

6 MR. SMITH: It's Matthew Smith 

7 with ORAU.

8 MR. KATZ: Matthew Smith. Thank 

9 you.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: OTIB-0020?

11 MR. SMITH: OTIB-0020, OTIB-0020.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: Is there any other 

13 that I could look at?

14 MR. SMITH: There's a whole 

15 series, as Liz mentioned, there's a whole 

16 series of external coworker OTIBs for a 

17 variety of sites. Right now, I can't list you 

18 all the numbers on the phone, but --

19 MEMBER LEMEN: No, I understand 

20 that. But the OTIB-0020, that's not for a 

21 site. That's a basic document, right?
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1 MR. SMITH: Correct.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay.

4 MR. SMITH: It is one of those 

5 overarching documents that Liz was discussing.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, let me read 

7 that at a later time. I'm not going to take 

8 up the Board's time today to do it. Then, I 

9 will get back to you about it, if I could, if 

10 I can ask Dave or somebody to give me the 

11 right person to talk to.

12 I will pull that up after the 

13 meeting. I'm not going to have everybody sit 

14 here while I'm reading it.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

16 MEMBER LEMEN: Thank you.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Are we ready to move 

18 on to PR-12? That's an SC&A action. Status 

19 and complete coverage of PROC-97.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. If you look 

21 in your inbox, Nancy Johnson sent out on last 
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1 Friday our report that was prepared by Kathy 

2 DeMers primarily on our review of --

3 DR. MAURO: PR-12.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: -- PR-12. So, I 

5 guess Hans is here as the author. I see Hans. 

6 I'm sorry, Hans. You were the task manager 

7 on this.

8 Also, specifically for how the 

9 comments from PROC-97 were addressed, it is 

10 talked about under Attachment 6 of that 

11 report, which begins on page 66 of the report.

12 MS. THOMAS: Steve, can you send 

13 me a copy of that, so I can get it? I didn't 

14 get it. I don't think I was on that list. 

15 Thank you.

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: Is PR-12 on the 

17 database?

18 This is Mark Griffon. I'm sorry.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I do not believe it 

20 is on the database.

21 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. Yes, I 
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1 don't see it. So, okay.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: So, we need to go 

3 to her email, right?

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, I think this is 

5 relatively recent. And by the way, this is a 

6 question for Wanda.

7 Wanda, this is the PR dealing with 

8 outreach.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, Steve, you were 

11 thinking PER-12.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: No, I'm talking 

13 about --

14 DR. MAURO: PR-12, right?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: -- PR-12. Isn't 

16 that the one that --

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, that is outreach.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: This is the one I 

19 am looking at.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Nancy sent that 

21 out Friday, on the 4th.
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Isn't there an easy 

2 way to get back to your email without going 

3 out and coming back in?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: I just keep it 

6 open and then minimize it.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I do, but 

8 you've got to do both; you've got to go into 

9 both separate, I guess, right?

10 CHAIR MUNN: All the time.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay.

12 DR. H. BEHLING: This is Hans.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: It's PR-12.

14 DR. H. BEHLING: John is correct, 

15 I didn't have anything to do with --

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, your name 

17 shows up as the task manager.

18 DR. H. BEHLING: On PR-12?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: On PR-12.

20 DR. H. BEHLING: Well, that's a 

21 mistake. And I think it has to do with the 
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1 fact that it sounds an awful lot like PER-12, 

2 unfortunately.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm looking at it 

4 right now. I'm looking at the attachment that 

5 Nancy sent out, and it is a Review of OCAS 

6 PR-12, Worker Outreach Program.

7 DR. H. BEHLING: Okay.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: It shows Hans as 

9 the --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: It shows Hans as 

11 the task manager and John Mauro as the project 

12 manager.

13 DR. MAURO: My apologies to 

14 everyone. That should show Kathy DeMers as 

15 the manager. She did the heavy lifting. I 

16 did, in fact, review it, as did Arjun. I 

17 don't know if Arjun is on the line.

18 And the bottom line of this is, I 

19 think PROC-97, which was the original outreach 

20 protocol that was being employed by NIOSH, was 

21 the subject of a review that was led by Arjun, 
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1 and there were a number of issues that were 

2 raised.

3 During that process, NIOSH 

4 developed PR-12, a relatively recent procedure 

5 regarding outreach, and it has been now -- the 

6 important point is everything in PROC-97 that 

7 we discussed has been subsumed into our review 

8 of PR-12. And there's a whole section in our 

9 review of PR-12 dealing with the issues that 

10 were raised originally in PROC-97, its 

11 predecessor document.

12 Now, that being said, I believe 

13 this -- now this is a question -- I guess it's 

14 good that Mike is on the line also. This 

15 particular review really was initiated not by 

16 the Procedures Work Group, but by the Outreach 

17 Work Group. And all this work was done under 

18 the direction and authorization of Mike Gibson 

19 and his Work Group on Outreach.

20 So, I guess my question to you, 

21 Wanda, is it seems to me that certainly 
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1 tracking the findings and maybe loading them, 

2 but it seems to be something that was 

3 initiated by the Outreach Work Group. So, we 

4 are in this unusual circumstance, similar to 

5 other procedures where we review something 

6 that has to do with Y-12. Here we have a 

7 procedure that we reviewed, but under the 

8 auspices of a different Work Group.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, this was 

10 essentially unique in the way it was developed 

11 and the way it was brought to us. So, it has 

12 been tracked almost as a separate issue 

13 because of that.

14 I have not read the document that 

15 we just received. I scanned it, but have not 

16 read it and do not know what we can do further 

17 with it, other than indicate that it has been 

18 filed, that it has been provided, and that it 

19 is currently, I am assuming -- and, Mike, 

20 correct me if I'm wrong -- I am assuming that 

21 we are going to do the review of this 
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1 particular document, of this status document, 

2 under the Work Group. Or did you anticipate 

3 that it would be reviewed here?

4 DR. MAURO: This is John.

5 If you are asking that question of 

6 me, I was expecting that you would like to 

7 load the data into your database and then 

8 transfer it over to the Outreach Work Group, 

9 where the explicit findings would be 

10 discussed, engaged, ultimately closed, not 

11 unlike what we do on other places.

12 So, my understanding is, in 

13 general, that the Procedures Work Group is a 

14 good place to have the tracking, a record of 

15 all this. But it turns out the actual 

16 closeout of the technical issues sometimes 

17 really belongs elsewhere. Like some of the 

18 Site Profiles with the Savannah River or Y-12, 

19 this is an example of a place where it seems 

20 that it would be great to keep track of it 

21 here, load it up, but then transfer it over to 
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1 the Outreach Work Group, where they will 

2 engage it and discuss all the findings, and 

3 then make recommendations back to you, Wanda, 

4 and the Subcommittee as to whether the issue 

5 is in abeyance, closed, open, and so forth.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Now you're pretty 

7 much saying what I thought I said, John. Just 

8 a minute --

9 DR. MAURO: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Paul?

11 MEMBER GIBSON: Wanda, this is 

12 Mike.

13 I agree. I think that the Worker 

14 Outreach Work Group, that is our intention, is 

15 to review this, but I guess what John brought 

16 up explained better, I guess, what I was 

17 trying to bring up earlier.

18 In the Procedures Subcommittee, 

19 when one issue is transferred from one PROC or 

20 it is going to be addressed in a new version 

21 or a revision of another PROC, to make sure 
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1 that that doesn't get lost in the process and 

2 does, indeed, get transferred to a Work Group, 

3 and it is their responsibility, and it should 

4 be, it should be their interest to make sure 

5 that is done before it shows as closed in your 

6 database.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that has been 

8 our intent and that is what we have tried to 

9 do in process before with single findings. In 

10 this case, we don't have a single finding; we 

11 have an entire document.

12 MEMBER GIBSON: Right.

13 CHAIR MUNN: But from my 

14 perspective, the process is essentially the 

15 same. It is my view that this document should 

16 be shown on our database as transferred to the 

17 Work Group for review and for closure.

18 Is that the general feeling of the 

19 Subcommittee? Paul?

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, I agree with 

21 that.
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1 I had a question in that regard, 

2 though maybe John can answer this.

3 I noticed that you indicated that 

4 the new document, in your opinion, does not 

5 address the issues that were raised in the 

6 original.

7 DR. MAURO: Yes.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think, 

9 basically, saying that the same issues are 

10 there as far as SC&A is concerned. I haven't 

11 laid these side-by-side, but are the new 

12 findings or the findings in the new document, 

13 do they parallel the previous findings then?

14 DR. MAURO: You will see that in 

15 many places we believe the issue still is 

16 open. In other words, though PR-12 has been 

17 issued, there were many issues raised 

18 originally in PROC-97. I believe that there 

19 are still problems. Yes, I guess that is the 

20 way to say it.

21 So, our intent was to make sure 
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1 that we don't lose any issues, whether they 

2 were originally raised in PROC-97 or they are 

3 new issues now that are raised in PR-12. They 

4 should all be there, all the issues, whether 

5 they originated from PROC-97 or PR-12. So, 

6 they should all be there listed and discussed 

7 in the PR-12 document. So, the idea being 

8 that, once we get through PR-12, we in theory 

9 should have also gotten through PROC-97.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, that is 

11 basically what my question was. So that if 

12 the Work Group, the Worker Outreach Work Group 

13 reviews PR-12 and addresses those issues, it 

14 is a moot point as far as PROC-97. They don't 

15 need to go back on those, and they will have 

16 to satisfy themselves on this, I'm sure.

17 DR. MAURO: Yes.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Basically, PROC-97 

19 won't be in effect in any event, is that 

20 correct?

21 DR. MAURO: That was our 
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1 intention. In other words, when we do get to 

2 that point with Mike where we're going through 

3 each of the issues in PROC-12, certainly the 

4 Work Group is going to be interested to make 

5 sure that we didn't slip anything, that is 

6 that, in fact, we have captured everything. 

7 That would be the first order of business, 

8 that the Work Group will need to be convinced 

9 that, yes, every one of the issues that we 

10 have raised has found a home in PROC-12, in 

11 our review of PR-12.

12 So, that we can transition over to 

13 PR-12 review and issues resolution with a 

14 degree of comfort that we haven't left 

15 anything out and left anything behind that was 

16 originally raised when we discussed PROC-97. 

17 That was our intent.

18 And certainly, that judgment, 

19 though, really is maybe one of the first 

20 things that needs to be done when we take this 

21 on in the Outreach Work Group.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: John, isn't that 

2 what Kathy has done to some extent in her 

3 attachment 6?

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, she has. And 

5 that's why it's there. But, of course, the 

6 Work Group has to be satisfied that it was 

7 done adequately.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, because the 

9 database shows all of the findings in PROC-97 

10 still open, that we have not --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: But that Work 

12 Group could go back and say now we are dealing 

13 with this under PR-12.

14 CHAIR MUNN: PR-12.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: But the question 

16 is, the question in my mind is, you know, 

17 PROC-97, as I understand it, or as it is 

18 written here, it says PROC-97 was canceled. 

19 So, really, does it make any sense to keep 

20 issues in a database for a canceled document? 

21 In addition, since the issues have already 
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1 been, more or less, duplicated, again, talking 

2 about PROC-97, Issue No. 9, SC&A recommends 

3 that PROC-97 Issue No. 9 be closed since it is 

4 duplicated under Finding 4 of the OCAS PR-12 

5 procedure review.

6 I guess you could do it either 

7 way. If you are convinced that all the 

8 PROC-97 issues have been duplicated under the 

9 PR-12 review, why carry two sets of issues 

10 when they are virtually identical?

11 MEMBER GIBSON: Steve, this is 

12 Mike.

13 Personally, I'm not comfortable, 

14 as the Chair of the Worker Outreach Work 

15 Group, that PROC-97, all the issues are 

16 duplicated, you know, are covered in 12. So, 

17 I can't see closing 97 issues until we assure 

18 they have went away or they have found a home 

19 that they are being addressed at somewhere 

20 else.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: That is a good 
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1 reason, Mike.

2 DR. MAURO: That was what I was 

3 trying to say, right. We have to make sure, 

4 the Work Group has to be comfortable that 

5 PR-12 is complete in terms of making sure that 

6 we haven't let anything, any issue slip 

7 through the cracks.

8 You're right, though, that in some 

9 of them we may have just renumbered them, and 

10 that's fine that we've captured it. But in 

11 other cases, we have to be sure.

12 Because I remember a lot of very 

13 important issues came up in PROC-97, and I 

14 guess just to close the book on it, maybe that 

15 is the first thing we do, is to close the book 

16 and say, listen, it's a PROC that no longer is 

17 in effect. It has been, for all intents and 

18 purposes, replaced by PR-12. But before we go 

19 ahead and close the book on it, let's make 

20 sure there's nothing important that was in 

21 PROC-97 that we have let slip through the 
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1 cracks.

2 MR. KATZ: Right, and then you 

3 would just bring those over as, in effect, 

4 findings or criticisms of PROC-12?

5 DR. MAURO: Yes.

6 MR. KATZ: So, then, it is all 

7 under PROC-12.

8 DR. MAURO: That was our intent, 

9 to put that --

10 MR. KATZ: PROC-12 is the only 

11 operative procedure?

12 DR. MAURO: Right. Eventually, 

13 that is what we were hoping to accomplish.

14 MEMBER GIBSON: This is Mike.

15 If we have screened the two 

16 documents and make sure everything has been 

17 swept over as the first order of business, and 

18 then close this thing out, that's fine. But I 

19 just want to make sure it is done.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, we've got to 

21 close this --
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1 MR. KATZ: That sounds good, Mike. 

2 I think everybody is nodding their heads 

3 here.

4 CHAIR MUNN: All except Wanda, and 

5 Wanda is still wondering why the tracking 

6 application that I am looking at is showing 

7 all of the PROC-97 findings as open if our 

8 other database showed us that the entire 

9 procedure was canceled.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Which other 

11 database? Which database are you --

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Would the new one 

13 show it as a canceled procedure and, 

14 therefore, it would have no findings?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: No. PROC-97 is 

16 complete. It's got nine --

17 CHAIR MUNN: No, you are looking 

18 at the old one.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm looking at the 

20 new one.

21 CHAIR MUNN: You're looking at the 
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1 new one?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: He's got it on the 

4 screen here and he's --

5 MR. KATZ: It shows right there. 

6 They are all open.

7 MR. TURNER: They are all open in 

8 the old database.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: They're all open in 

10 the new database.

11 MR. TURNER: Right, they're the 

12 same.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: What's in PROC-97, 

14 PROC-97 --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is because they 

16 transferred it from there.

17 MR. KATZ: Right. So, when the 

18 Outreach Work Group goes through these, it can 

19 close these by transferring these over to 12, 

20 and then it can report back to this, and then 

21 we can pull it off the database, PROC-97.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: But they are all 

2 showing as open.

3 CHAIR MUNN: So, the issues are 

4 open, but the procedure has been canceled?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Exactly. Exactly.

6 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Whose 

7 action is it to do the comparison?

8 MR. KATZ: The Outreach Work 

9 Group.

10 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, that will be 

11 our Work Group, Wanda.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Transferred 

13 to --

14 MEMBER GIBSON: John, this is 

15 Mike.

16 John, can you get started on that?

17 MEMBER LEMEN: So, it's 

18 transferred now?

19 DR. MAURO: Well, let's talk about 

20 the mechanics here. Right now, you have a 

21 report that is before you that tried to do 
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1 that. In other words, that's what the 

2 attachment tries to show. Yet, here was 

3 everything in PROC-97, and we have made sure 

4 that we didn't miss anything. So, it is 

5 there.

6 And the question now becomes, 

7 okay, so we are at the point now where I think 

8 that the Work Group will need to read PR-12. 

9 I think we have done our job, I guess that is 

10 what I am saying, in trying to tell a story 

11 that shows here's our comments on PR-12 and 

12 here's the degree to which PR-12 addresses 

13 adequately or doesn't all of the issues raised 

14 in PROC-97. And that is what you have in

15 front of you as our standalone report.

16 So, I think it is now a matter of 

17 the Work Group reading that report, and then 

18 we convene a Work Group meeting whereby you 

19 could feed back to whether you agree. Yes, I 

20 think you guys did a good job in making sure 

21 that you've captured everything in PR-12 or 
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1 not. And then we will proceed to work with 

2 NIOSH on issues resolution.

3 So, I think really we are at the 

4 point now where, after NIOSH and the Work 

5 Group have a chance to read our report on 

6 PR-12, it might be a good time -- and it may 

7 be that NIOSH is perhaps even prepared to 

8 write up a response to the issues raised, and 

9 at the next meeting we will, I guess, first 

10 engage to make sure that everyone is 

11 comfortable that we didn't miss anything in 

12 PR-12.

13 Then, let's say you agree that, 

14 yes, you guys have captured it all. Then, we 

15 would proceed with issues resolutions, start 

16 marching down each issue, and, hopefully, 

17 achieve some closure.

18 MEMBER GIBSON: Okay, this is 

19 Mike.

20 And I didn't mean to take up 

21 Wanda's agenda time, but, yes, I just believe 
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1 that you had a preliminary review of PROC-12. 

2 But we will set up a Work Group meeting and 

3 we will get this sorted out.

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, that was a big, 

5 that PR-12 was, you'll see when you get to it 

6 -- take a look at it, and you let us know if 

7 you think it is -- you know, we certainly are 

8 receptive to any commentary you might have 

9 where we may have missed something important, 

10 maybe have not done a sufficient job in 

11 capturing PROC-97 issues and making sure 

12 nothing has slipped through the cracks.

13 I guess as a Work Group you could 

14 feed that back. We have done this before. 

15 And if you would like us to revise it, 

16 certainly working through Ted, if you think 

17 that a rev is needed before we have the Work 

18 Group meeting, we will certainly do that.

19 But I think right now the ball is 

20 in the Work Group's court to let us know 

21 whether or not you've got a document of 
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1 sufficient substance that will allow a Work 

2 Group meeting to go forward productively.

3 MEMBER GIBSON: Okay, I will.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: When you are 

5 talking Work Group, you are talking about 

6 outreach work, correct?

7 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes, that is the 

9 Outreach Work Group, yes.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: Right. I thought 

11 that's what you meant.

12 MR. KATZ: Thank you, John.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Go ahead.

14 MR. KATZ: I said thank you.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: So, that goes to 

16 the Outreach Work Group, right?

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is going to 

18 the Outreach Work Group, but attachment 6, if 

19 attachment 6 is thorough, then the issue of 

20 whether or not it is covered well ought to be 

21 moot, once we have reviewed that.
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1 All right. Transfer the entire 

2 document to Outreach for review.

3 The next item: check completion 

4 of the responses loaded into the database and 

5 the paragraphs being numbered properly for 

6 TIB-013.

7 MR. TURNER: One question, Wanda.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 MR. TURNER: Here is where we 

10 would actually --

11 MR. KATZ: Assign it to the Work 

12 Group.

13 MR. TURNER: -- assign it to the 

14 Work Group.

15 MR. KATZ: Right.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

17 MR. KATZ: Exactly right.

18 MR. TURNER: Is this something we 

19 want to do now or just something --

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is something 

21 we want to do now.
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1 MR. TURNER: Would you like to do 

2 that?

3 MR. KATZ: Yes, that would make 

4 sense.

5 MR. TURNER: We will capture my 

6 idea --

7 MR. KATZ: Yes.

8 (Laughter.)

9 So, it's not associated.

10 So, Steve is going to just effect 

11 this in the database.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: This goes to the 

13 unassigned queue? Is that where we're at?

14 MR. TURNER: Oh, this would be the

15 assigned queue, document review assigned 

16 queue.

17 MR. KATZ: Because it has been 

18 assigned already to this Subcommittee, but now 

19 you are going to assign it to the Work Group, 

20 the Outreach Work Group.

21 MR. TURNER: So, in a sense, it 
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1 will be assigned to two groups.

2 MR. KATZ: Right. And that makes 

3 sense. That is good.

4 PR-12.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't have it.

6 MR. TURNER: Okay, I will do it. 

7 He's not part of that Work Group.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: No, I'm not part of 

9 it. I'm not Outreach.

10 MR. TURNER: I will change the 

11 other one later.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Wait. It doesn't 

14 show up under ours to start with, this new --

15 MR. TURNER: It does show up on 

16 his, but he is not part of the Work Group, any 

17 other Work Group. So, he can't transport it 

18 to any Work Group he's not a part of.

19 What we will do is we will put him 

20 at one higher level than the Work Group, so he 

21 can assign those, so it can be recorded.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: I've got you.

2 MR. KATZ: Thanks.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Are you okay, Steve?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm okay. I don't 

5 have anything to do.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. I believe we 

7 had communication about proper numbering for 

8 TIB-013, did we not?

9 MS. THOMAS: Yes, I think Brant 

10 sent out an email with --

11 CHAIR MUNN: I think he did.

12 MS. THOMAS: -- those responses 

13 that were added to the old Access database on 

14 our side, which was then merged with the one 

15 on your side, and then I think got into the 

16 new database. So, we can see.

17 It is OCAS-TIB-013.

18 MR. TURNER: My view doesn't show 

19 me that.

20 MS. THOMAS: Okay.

21 MR. TURNER: Your guys' view 
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1 should be changed.

2 MS. THOMAS: The Subcommittee had 

3 reviewed all the responses on a paper copy a 

4 while back. I can't tell you exactly which 

5 meeting. But on that paper copy, some of the 

6 responses didn't match the findings. So, they 

7 were just a little bit mismatched. So, that 

8 is what that means to renumber the responses 

9 to match the appropriate finding. So, that 

10 should be reflected now. If it's not, I will 

11 take care of that.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: What's the name of 

13 the procedure that is special --

14 MR. TURNER: See, right now, you 

15 guys are seeing it with the OTIB-0013.

16 MS. THOMAS: Yes, it's 

17 OCAS-TIB-013. It's not OTIB --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: OCAS-TIB-013.

19 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

20 MR. TURNER: I'm looking at it by 

21 document title.
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1 MS. THOMAS: Okay.

2 MR. TURNER: So, it is not 

3 numbered. You guys now see it by the number. 

4 They have already changed that for you.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: TIB-013 is 

6 different than OTIB-0013?

7 MS. THOMAS: Yes. It is special 

8 external dose reconstruction considerations 

9 for Mallinckrodt workers.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: I am not showing 

11 anything -- I am showing these as all open --

12 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: -- with no NIOSH 

14 responses.

15 MS. THOMAS: Okay. So, what I 

16 will do, again, that is just -- yes, I have 

17 the responses in the old database. I will 

18 make sure they get into the new one.

19 CHAIR MUNN: So, you are going to 

20 carry on?

21 MS. THOMAS: Yes. It will be done 
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1 by then.

2 CHAIR MUNN: By which time we will 

3 all be more adept at finding the material.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: Mine says Y-12. I 

5 don't know why it has done that.

6 MS. THOMAS: You are looking at 

7 OTIB-0013.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: I know, but I put 

9 TIB in there, and it still doesn't come up 

10 right. I put TIB-0013.

11 MS. THOMAS: Try 013, TIB-013.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: Are we supposed to 

13 go to sleep, Ted?

14 MR. KATZ: Yes.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MS. THOMAS: Okay. So, I will get 

17 those added to the database for the next time.

18 CHAIR MUNN: The next item is 

19 TIB-049-01, response regarding plutonium 

20 retained in the lung, from NIOSH activity.

21 MS. THOMAS: Yes. This one, 
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1 again, there's kind of a long history 

2 discussing these findings. If you recall, I 

3 think, Steve, there was a long email from Stu 

4 back in the fall that kind of listed the 

5 sequence of events, you know, the finding, the 

6 response, the followup --

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

8 MS. THOMAS: -- the NIOSH follow9 up. And we have gone back and forth a little 

10 bit.

11 We are basically down to finding 

12 49-01, and at the last meeting I think Stu 

13 committed that we would, you know, kind of 

14 clarify our response or basically restate our 

15 position. We haven't quite done that yet. We 

16 are kind of holding up because we are not 

17 exactly sure what SC&A's issue is with our 

18 initial response.

19 But what we will go ahead and do 

20 is kind of restate our initial response, maybe 

21 in a different way, and pick it up from there.
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1 So, that is still probably an 

2 action on our part, then, for the next time.

3 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: So, this is 

5 OTIB-0 --

6 CHAIR MUNN: 49-01.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: 0049, right?

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: But when you put 

10 0049-1, it doesn't come up.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Well, ignore the -01.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: I know. Let's see 

13 if it works by ignoring it.

14 CHAIR MUNN: I need one question. 

15 How do I get from the screen I'm looking at, 

16 which is estimating doses, which is this 

17 screen, to that screen?

18 MEMBER LEMEN: Click on those blue 

19 things.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I tried that.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: So, you want the 
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1 bottom one, right?

2 So, what did we decide on that 

3 one? Can somebody tell me right now?

4 MR. KATZ: So, the decision is 

5 DCAS will restate their original response to 

6 the concern to see if that doesn't clarify at 

7 least where DCAS stands on this.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: But it says here 

9 the Work Group instructed that the status of 

10 this issue be changed to in progress. Is that 

11 what you're stating?

12 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: It is in progress.

14 MS. THOMAS: It's still in 

15 progress, yes.

16 DR. MAURO: This is John.

17 Was that Liz speaking?

18 MS. THOMAS: No, that was Elyse.

19 DR. MAURO: Oh, I'm sorry.

20 In circumstances where there may 

21 be a breakdown in communication between SC&A 
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1 and NIOSH on some technical issue, in other 

2 words, you may not fully understand what our 

3 concerns are, sometimes we have special 

4 technical conference calls where we don't 

5 resolve anything, but what we do is, if we 

6 have a concern and you're not quite sure what 

7 we mean, it is sometimes helpful to have a 

8 call where we could better articulate what our 

9 concerns are. That would put you in a better 

10 position to be able to answer the question.

11 As opposed to, let's say, you 

12 know, perhaps you have taken a guess at what 

13 our thinking was and then tried to rewrite it 

14 as best you can. So, this might be one of 

15 those times -- I'm not familiar with the 

16 issue, but it sounds like maybe a technical 

17 call could help here.

18 MS. THOMAS: Right, and that was 

19 one, I think it was one of the Subcommittee's 

20 directions a while back, was to have a 

21 technical call. I think NIOSH felt that it 
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1 would be better to go through one more round 

2 of written responses before we had that 

3 technical call.

4 DR. MAURO: Okay.

5 MS. THOMAS: So, it is worth a 

6 try. Let's try to get you something here, you 

7 know, well before the next meeting, so that 

8 you have a chance to review it. Then, it can 

9 be discussed at the next meeting. Then, if 

10 there's still some confusion on either of our 

11 parts, we can have a technical call to resolve 

12 it.

13 DR. MAURO: Okay.

14 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB-0054 response is 

15 due from NIOSH.

16 MS. THOMAS: That is still on our 

17 to-do list. So, carry that over, too.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Carryover.

19 PROC-42, scaling factor, finding 

20 status change. SC&A action?

21 MR. MARSCHKE: That should be in 
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1 there now.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: 042?

3 MR. MARSCHKE: If you look at 042, 

4 what that was, it was in the original report 

5 we had a finding that did not get transferred 

6 to the database. It had to do with the 

7 workbook and the way the workbook performed.

8 So, what I have done is, between 

9 the last meeting and this meeting, we have 

10 added that issue to the database. And if you 

11 look at, if you pull the procedure up -- what 

12 is it, PROC-0042? -- if you pull it up, and if 

13 you look down at the very last issue in 

14 there --

15 MEMBER LEMEN: Where it says SC&A 

16 has added this issue to the database?

17 MR. MARSCHKE: That's right. And 

18 basically, it says, the issue was the 

19 procedure appears to contain a technical error 

20 in applying the scaling factor. That is the 

21 first sentence.
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1 Then, it goes on, and that was --

2 MEMBER LEMEN: Where do you see 

3 that sentence? Because I just read what --

4 and you said, oh, I was at the right place. 

5 Is that added to the debate? That's all it 

6 says. Is there supposed to be more down 

7 there?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Where are you?

9 MEMBER LEMEN: I can go back and 

10 show you. You said you did it with the last 

11 one down there.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: All the time I was 

14 down at the bottom, right? That was the 

15 beginning, but --

16 MR. MARSCHKE: I was reading the 

17 beginning, yes.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: The final is what I 

19 just read: has added it to the database.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: I've got you.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: So, it's we have 

2 added it to the database, and we have added it 

3 as in progress because, I added it as in 

4 progress because, on November 17th, 2009, at 

5 the meeting, we discussed it briefly.

6 CHAIR MUNN: And is it 

7 incorporated as Finding 6 now?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: It is incorporated 

9 as, yes, I would assume it is Finding 6 

10 because we have no numbers on the new 

11 database, but it is the next one in line. 

12 One, two, three --

13 CHAIR MUNN: I guess the real 

14 question is, was it incorporated on the old --

15 MR. MARSCHKE: It's on the old as 

16 well, yes.

17 CHAIR MUNN: So that it would have 

18 been transferred over?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: It has been 

20 transferred over.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I'm looking at 

2 it on the new. So, it is in both of them now.

3 CHAIR MUNN: It's there; it's just 

4 not numbered?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, it's numbered 

6 in the old. None of them -- the numbers are 

7 hidden.

8 CHAIR MUNN: I know, yes, I know.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: The numbers are 

10 hidden in them.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: So, it will mean 

12 the sixth entry?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I think it will be 

14 the fifth.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: No, you've got five 

16 already.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, maybe one of 

18 them is closed.

19 CHAIR MUNN: I think one is.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

21 CHAIR MUNN: I would have to go 
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1 back and look.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: The one right above 

3 it: Chairman Munn --

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: -- that's good. 

6 So, the action will be for Steve to get the 

7 statement and necessary references to me, and 

8 at our next meeting we will incorporate that 

9 as a finding, as Finding 6. Is that what you 

10 said?

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: Then NIOSH can give 

13 us a direct response to closing.

14 But, then, there is an entry 5 

15 down there, too, under that.

16 CHAIR MUNN: That's the one that 

17 they just put in.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: Today?

19 CHAIR MUNN: No, no.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Actually, below it 

21 is just saying that I have put it in, SC&A has 
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1 taken the action to put it --

2 MEMBER LEMEN: So, it is not an 

3 action item. So, that would be just a note?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: It is not an action 

5 item. It is an action that was taken.

6 CHAIR MUNN: It is an action that 

7 was taken, and now NIOSH has the 

8 responsibility for getting us a response to 

9 that action item.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: So, will you put 

11 that in there?

12 CHAIR MUNN: It will be on our --

13 MEMBER LEMEN: Somebody needs to 

14 write that in there, right?

15 CHAIR MUNN: So, NIOSH needs to 

16 write it in.

17 MEMBER LEMEN: Right.

18 CHAIR MUNN: We don't have it yet 

19 from NIOSH.

20 MEMBER LEMEN: If you look up at 

21 what, I think it was Mr. Smith, Matthew --
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1 MR. SMITH: Yes, I'm trying to 

2 keep up, but I don't have access to any 

3 database. All I have is a hard copy of older 

4 files on my own computer.

5 So, to me, it looks like it was 

6 Finding 42-05, originally.

7 MS. THOMAS: It was added to that, 

8 though.

9 MR. SMITH: Oh.

10 MS. THOMAS: Yes. So, we have 

11 never seen the new finding.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, you have seen 

13 it; it has been in the report.

14 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: It just hasn't been 

16 in the database. But, back in November, 

17 basically, I think he said that it had 

18 something to do with negative numbers in the 

19 workbook.

20 MR. SMITH: Right.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: And Mr. Smith said 
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1 that we don't use negative numbers. So, I 

2 think it is going to go -- and I'm just 

3 reading it. We only allow the dose to be 

4 scaled upward. So, they really don't allow it 

5 to be scaled downwards.

6 CHAIR MUNN: That is correct. 

7 Yes.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: So, the concern is 

9 really going to go away, from an operational 

10 point of view.

11 CHAIR MUNN: It appears that the 

12 most likely outcome is that NIOSH will take a 

13 look at it, agree that that is, in fact, the 

14 case, and will close it next time.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

16 CHAIR MUNN: But we need NIOSH to 

17 do that for us.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Exactly.

19 CHAIR MUNN: It's in progress.

20 MS. THOMAS: I'll get that to you, 

21 Matt.
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1 MR. SMITH: Yes, I will just be on 

2 the lookout there. Thanks.

3 MS. THOMAS: Okay.

4 CHAIR MUNN: The next carryover is 

5 OTIB-0010.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: No, it's TIB-010, 

7 right? She said there's a difference between 

8 OTIB and TIB.

9 CHAIR MUNN: There is. TIB-010, 

10 one of the high-numbered issues; it is ready 

11 for closure?

12 That was a NIOSH question.

13 MS. THOMAS: Right, and we still 

14 don't have those MCNPX, I guess, MCNPX 

15 calculations to share with SC&A and the 

16 Subcommittee.

17 CHAIR MUNN: A carryover.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: Should TIBs -- you 

19 told me to take the zero off before. Should I 

20 take the zero off this time? Because it 

21 didn't come up. I took the zero off and it 
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1 didn't come up.

2 MS. THOMAS: Yes, I'm not sure how 

3 they are in the new database, but the TIBs are 

4 the OCAS documents or NIOSH documents, and 

5 then --

6 MEMBER LEMEN: So, if I wanted to 

7 search for that, how do I find it?

8 MS. THOMAS: The OTIBs are the 

9 ORAU documents. So, that's why there's a --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Is it TIB-010 or 

11 is --

12 MS. THOMAS: I thought it was 

13 TIB-010-08.

14 MEMBER LEMEN: If I wanted to 

15 search it in my document search, what do I 

16 enter?

17 MS. THOMAS: I'm not sure how they 

18 are in the new database.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: Is it in there?

20 MR. TURNER: It's in there, Step 

21 10. See, just put 010.
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Zero?

2 CHAIR MUNN: 0010.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: He said 010. I got 

4 it backwards. 010, right?

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: That's OCAS TIB.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: And then --

7 MS. THOMAS: OCAS TIB, yes.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay, now I've got 

9 two of them. I've got --

10 MR. TURNER: So, you have the 

11 OCAS-TIB-010 and the ORAU-OTIB-0010.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: ORAU 10, okay. But 

13 it seems like we've got to make some better 

14 notation, so we know how to do it because 

15 you're not going to be around every time we 

16 will want to look at this.

17 MR. TURNER: Well, they do have 

18 TIB-10.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: I know, I searched 

20 it that way, and it doesn't come up. It came 

21 up when you did it 010, but when I searched it 
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1 TIB-0010, it would not come up.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: TIBs only have one 

3 zero in front of it.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: That is what you 

5 said a while ago, on the TIBs, one zero; on 

6 the OTIBs, two zeroes.

7 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: So, we need to 

9 know, is it going to be one or two zeroes?

10 MS. THOMAS: It depends on is it a 

11 TIB or an OTIB.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: When I did TIB-010, 

13 it didn't come up. When I did TIB-0010, it 

14 didn't come up. But when he told me to put in 

15 010 it came right up.

16 MR. TURNER: Both came up.

17 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes, both came up.

18 MR. TURNER: Now you get to 

19 choose.

20 MEMBER LEMEN: I know, but how did 

21 I know that without you telling me, is what 
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1 I'm saying. I would have been sitting, if I 

2 would have been home in my office trying to 

3 search this, I would have never found it 

4 without you standing there.

5 MR. TURNER: Well, you could have 

6 actually went to the other --

7 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes, I'm going down 

8 that avenue.

9 MR. TURNER: But we'll change the 

10 search function so it will bring up these. We 

11 have already changed the document titles. 

12 Because, as you will remember, this morning 

13 this is what you saw, the way I'm looking at 

14 it. Now, when you look at it, you are looking 

15 at it as a document number, which is one thing 

16 you guys asked for.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

18 MR. TURNER: So, that has already 

19 happened. And they will change that search 

20 functionality so you can type in TIB-0010 

21 or --
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Zero or 00?

2 MR. TURNER: I don't know how you 

3 guys --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's listed 

5 here --

6 MR. TURNER: It's document 2627 to 

7 me.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's OCAS-TIB-010 

9 on the list.

10 MR. TURNER: Yes, I don't know how 

11 it is listed --

12 MR. MARSCHKE: You have to just 

13 remember the naming convention. The TIBs have 

14 got three digits, so it's 010. The OTIBs have 

15 four digits, so it's 0010.

16 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay. Well, we 

17 have printed it out.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, that's not 

19 coming from the database. That's somebody 

20 typed that.

21 MS. THOMAS: Yes, so we still 
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1 owe --

2 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Now we go 

3 to draft format for tracking page proposal.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I think that was a 

5 rather simple thing. We changed our procedure 

6 for doing procedures. We revised that. And 

7 one of the questions that the Subcommittee 

8 asked was, well, what did you exactly change 

9 because we don't have rev bars and we don't 

10 have a revision page currently in our 

11 documents?

12 So, we have put together, 

13 basically, a very simple -- and we are in the 

14 process of including this into our documents 

15 -- just a very simple thing, very similar to 

16 what NIOSH puts in in their documents, where 

17 we have a record of revisions table and we 

18 have revision number, effective date, and 

19 description of revision.

20 So, we will be putting this into 

21 -- and I believe, John, we are going to be 
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1 putting this into all of our documents right 

2 underneath the title page, which has the task 

3 manager and John as the project manager on it. 

4 It will be right underneath that title block. 

5 So, that is what we have done on that.

6 We have been working with Nancy 

7 Johnson. She will be inserting that with our 

8 technical editor. So, that is just a very 

9 simple thing that will come in.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it was a 

11 simplistic thing. I just want to make sure we 

12 are not missing some piece of information we 

13 want on there.

14 Would you read me the headings one 

15 more time?

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically, we have 

17 record of revisions, revision number, and then 

18 the first one, we always use Rev 0.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Zero zero.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: The effective date, 

21 and then we will put in month, date, year.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: The description of 

3 revision, and the first one will be initial 

4 issue. Initial issue.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Excellent.

6 Does anyone have any concerns 

7 about that as being adequate for what we 

8 wanted?

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: It sounds like a 

10 good start.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think so.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Maybe a little 

13 experience with it, we will know whether that 

14 is going to take care of it.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Well, it appears to 

16 cover everything that we do in our other 

17 documents, and that is essentially what our 

18 concern was, which you agree --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically, just 

20 took the NIOSH format and, you know --

21 CHAIR MUNN: If that one's wrong, 
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1 we are in trouble.

2 DR. MAURO: Well, you know, Wanda, 

3 this is John.

4 I would like to point out, though, 

5 that I don't want to leave the impression that 

6 it is a matter of practice for SC&A to, let's 

7 say, revise its Site Profile Reviews, its 

8 procedure reviews.

9 We had this discussion once before 

10 about, you know, SC&A issues its draft 

11 reports. Let's say it is a procedure review. 

12 And then, we go through this process right 

13 now that we are in where we are tracking how 

14 the issues are resolved. And in some cases, 

15 SC&A may withdraw its concern and say, oh, 

16 okay, we understand; we withdraw that issue. 

17 And that is documented in the tracking system.

18 It was not our plan, and I think 

19 it was agreed at the time we discussed this 

20 previously that we would reissue our review, 

21 you know, indicating that is no longer an 
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1 issue. Because the whole process that we go 

2 through, whether it is procedures or a Site 

3 Profile Review, it is such a protracted 

4 process, we would be spending an awful lot of 

5 time issuing revisions.

6 I think that the tracking system, 

7 I think if it is understood, and maybe some 

8 language needs to be put in, work products to 

9 make it clear that the tracking and closure of 

10 issues is a separate process, and how this all 

11 turns out is really documented in the tracking 

12 system or, in the case of, let's say, a Site 

13 Profile, in the matrices that are a living 

14 document, that keep changing. That is where 

15 the documentation lies as to the status of 

16 each issue.

17 So, I don't want to leave anyone 

18 with the impression that it was our intention 

19 to stop the issue revisions. Now, there may 

20 be occasions when, like, for example, let's 

21 say the Outreach Work Group does find 
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1 significant deficiencies in our report, like 

2 happened recently with a Bethlehem Steel White 

3 Paper, where we did issue a revision.

4 But, in general, I would say that 

5 is a pretty rare occasion when you say, well, 

6 no, we would like you to revise the report and 

7 address this, this, and this. It does occur, 

8 but it is not a matter of standard practice. 

9 It is when, really, we have not fulfilled our 

10 mission properly. You see the distinction 

11 between fulfilling our mission and the need to 

12 revise a report, as opposed to issues 

13 resolution and the need to revise a report? I 

14 don't think the latter is what we intend to 

15 do. It would be a very time-consuming and 

16 costly process, and you see where I'm going 

17 with this?

18 CHAIR MUNN: I think that is 

19 understood, John.

20 DR. MAURO: Okay.

21 CHAIR MUNN: I don't believe 
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1 anyone is under any misapprehensions about 

2 that.

3 DR. MAURO: Okay. Thanks. I'm 

4 sorry for going on. Okay.

5 CHAIR MUNN: But it may be that, 

6 as internal revisions take place, it may be 

7 items are to be addressed. It may be 

8 necessary for us to add something onto that 

9 tracking page. So that an indication of some 

10 page having been changed in such a way might 

11 be helpful to us in the long run, but that 

12 would not constitute a revision of the entire 

13 document.

14 But as significant changes in 

15 position or in issue are likely to change 

16 during either review or external discussion of 

17 some sort, we will just have to approach that, 

18 I think, as it comes along.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes. Okay.

20 MR. KATZ: Yes. I mean DCAS, I 

21 believe, when they do issue a revision, they 
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1 have a little summary that explains why the 

2 revision is being issued.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

4 MR. KATZ: Is that correct?

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, they do.

6 MR. KATZ: Elyse?

7 MS. THOMAS: I'm sorry?

8 MR. KATZ: When you issue a 

9 revision, you have a little explanation as to 

10 why --

11 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

12 MR. KATZ: -- that revision is 

13 being issued, right?

14 MS. THOMAS: Yes. In the ORAU 

15 team documents --

16 MR. KATZ: Right, right.

17 MS. THOMAS: -- it's called the 

18 publication record.

19 MR. KATZ: Right.

20 MS. THOMAS: But it is the same 

21 thing. It explains the revisions.
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1 MR. KATZ: Right. Even for the 

2 rare occasions when SC&A issues a revision, it 

3 sounds like a good idea to have a little 

4 paragraph explaining it.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

6 MR. KATZ: Yes.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Good. Thank you very 

8 much.

9 We were going to have available 

10 for you -- and it's my fault you don't have it 

11 -- a two-page procedure archive document. It 

12 has been kicked around, back and forth.

13 Paul, Dick and I have been working 

14 with that document to try to make sure that it 

15 is as non-technical, interested-person16 friendly as possible, and that it does not 

17 look so much like a government document that 

18 it frightens people away. The language we are 

19 working on very hard to try to make sure that 

20 it flows easily and that it is not complex and 

21 doesn't carry too much technical information, 
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1 but covers the waterfront quite well.

2 The current revision of it does, 

3 in my view, cover the information very well. 

4 However, what we are working on here is one of 

5 the simpler PERs that we are using as a basis 

6 for our first strawman. And in its current 

7 version, it does run over what I have 

8 established in my own mind as a two-page 

9 limit.

10 I had asked for a little more time 

11 to try to compress some of the information 

12 that was there, and the other folks who were 

13 working with it agreed that we should do that. 

14 I was unable to complete that, unable to get 

15 it to you.

16 I will try to see if I can, before 

17 the end of this month, have a further exchange 

18 with the folks that are working with it and 

19 get a proposal out by email to all of the 

20 Subcommittee members, so that you can take a 

21 look and see if you agree if we are going in 
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1 the right direction or not.

2 Our break was scheduled at three 

3 o'clock. Can we take --

4 DR. MAURO: Wanda, before we 

5 break, I have a question for you on the two6 pagers.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: Let's say we get to 

9 some point where the Work Group is comfortable 

10 with the example that you are working with.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

12 DR. MAURO: Let's say between now 

13 and the next Work Group meeting, let's say 

14 that happens. Is it your intention to ask Ted 

15 to task SC&A to do the other 50? Because 

16 there are about 50 of these that have been 

17 closed or in abeyance where two pages can be 

18 prepared.

19 Is that the process we are in? 

20 So, we are sort of like waiting until we get 

21 the here's what we would like you to do? Or 
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1 if you want to go a little more incremental, 

2 that is, once you get an example of what you 

3 feel is the right tone, maybe SC&A would do a 

4 few and say, okay, what do you think? You 

5 know, approach this a little bit with baby 

6 steps?

7 CHAIR MUNN: The incremental 

8 approach is what I had in mind.

9 DR. MAURO: Okay.

10 CHAIR MUNN: I don't know what the 

11 other members of the Subcommittee had in mind 

12 or what Ted anticipated. But I had certainly 

13 expected an incremental approach. I had no 

14 expectation of charging SC&A with the 

15 responsibility to address all that you have 

16 done at this juncture.

17 DR. MAURO: Okay. Thank you.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Does that fit 

19 appropriately with the other Subcommittee 

20 members' views of how to proceed with that?

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: John, I think you 
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1 will need to look at what we have developed. 

2 You guys did a two-pager, and our reaction to 

3 it was not very positive, if I could put that 

4 nicely. You did a fine job, but you guys are 

5 too technical.

6 (Laughter.)

7 And maybe the rest of us are, too, 

8 but I think the version that Dick and I worked 

9 on, Wanda has helped edit, is more what we had 

10 in mind. And you'll have to look at that and 

11 say, do I have anyone onboard that can write 

12 like that?

13 DR. MAURO: Yes.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: You know, it is 

15 almost elementary school level. You know, you 

16 might look at it as an early science reader 

17 sort of thing.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: We have tried to 

20 eliminate even, to the extent we could, except 

21 for in the title itself, even document 
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1 numbers, all of those things, acronyms and 

2 things like that that have a technical look to 

3 them.

4 So, you will have to look at what 

5 we have produced. If Wanda didn't have the 

6 two-page limit, we would probably add a 

7 cartoon figure, wouldn't we?

8 CHAIR MUNN: I'm quite sure they 

9 would.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. KATZ: It's fine we go to 

12 three pages, or whatever.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I got it 

14 down to two, but Wanda didn't like the six15 point font.

16 (Laughter.)

17 CHAIR MUNN: And my other problem 

18 with that is this is one of the simpler 

19 documents that we are putting together. If we 

20 can't get the simplest that we have before us 

21 on the two pages, then what the dickens is a 
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1 really complex document going to look like?

2 MR. KATZ: But I just don't want 

3 brevity to be the enemy of doing a decent, 

4 complete job. I mean people can deal with 

5 three pages or four pages, if they need, 

6 because some of it is going to be boilerplate 

7 that is going to be similar, and that eats up 

8 some of your substantive space.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Only the first 

10 paragraph.

11 MR. KATZ: Yes.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Everything else will 

13 be, hopefully, entirely specific to that 

14 document.

15 DR. MAURO: You know what might be 

16 a good way to go? I mean this is a 

17 suggestion.

18 I understand what you are saying. 

19 We do have certain people -- I would include 

20 myself as one of them -- that can take 

21 something and write it down to what I would 
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1 say common-sense language for the regular guy. 

2 And we do have a handful of people that are 

3 good at that. I would say they are the folks 

4 I am thinking of right now.

5 Maybe the next round, SC&A will 

6 make another run at maybe three, using your --

7 once we get the tone and your style. We would 

8 bounce that back to the Work Group and say, 

9 oh, I think we're getting there.

10 My guess is that it is going to be 

11 asymptotic. You may want to take it at that 

12 point and maybe Paul and Wanda and others may 

13 want to take a shot at that. I don't know. I 

14 am just trying to think of a process to get us 

15 to the place where everyone is comfortable.

16 Maybe the process would be SC&A 

17 try to make a run at it. I know the format 

18 that we used in the previous one was not what 

19 you had in mind. My guess is that getting it 

20 to that right place might be iterative.

21 I mean, other than that, of 
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1 course, the Work Group could write them, but 

2 SC&A would like another shot at it, quite 

3 frankly, to see if we could do it.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Well, you will 

5 certainly have that opportunity. You can rest 

6 assured of that.

7 DR. MAURO: Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. KATZ: The current version, I 

9 mean I know Paul commented, Wanda commented, 

10 it sounds like Dick has commented. Is there 

11 one version that has been circulated to all? 

12 Because I don't recall whether I received --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Just what's in --

14 CHAIR MUNN: No. Just we --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's a highly 

16 secret version.

17 MR. KATZ: A secret version, okay, 

18 in the black box.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: You have to have 

21 Dr. Seuss clearance to get to it.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: You have to have a 

2 certain lack of level of sophistication.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Dr. Seuss 

4 clearance, if you don't have that, you can't 

5 get into it.

6 MR. KATZ: What I was actually 

7 asking is whether Mike Gibson and Mark Griffon 

8 had a chance to look at the current --

9 CHAIR MUNN: No. At the time that 

10 we started this, I asked anyone who had any 

11 comment or wanted to be involved in this to 

12 let me know. And these are the people who are 

13 interested in doing it. So, at the time that 

14 we have finished our machinations, it will 

15 definitely go out to the Subcommittee, of 

16 course. We are not going to spring it on you 

17 sight unseen.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes. No, that's not my 

19 concern. I just was wondering whether there 

20 could be a conversation from the folks, other 

21 than you three, at this point, and it sounds 
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1 like there can't because none of them have 

2 even seen it.

3 CHAIR MUNN: They haven't seen it.

4 MR. KATZ: Okay. So, that answers 

5 my question there.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Let's take a break 

7 for a little over 10 minutes. We're back at 

8 3:45.

9 MR. KATZ: Okay, I'm just putting 

10 the phone on mute, but I'm not disconnecting.

11 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

12 matter went off the record at 3:28 p.m. and 

13 resumed at 3:41 p.m.)

14 MR. KATZ: Okay. We are back on.

15 Mike, are you with us?

16 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I'm here, 

17 Ted.

18 MR. KATZ: How about Mark?

19 (No response.)

20 Then, John?

21 (No response.)
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1 How about the Behlings?

2 MS. K. BEHLING: We're here.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay. Great.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Our first item after 

5 the break is provide revised OTIB-0029-02 

6 responses, and NIOSH action.

7 MS. THOMAS: Yes, this was one 

8 where, if you recall, our response or follow9 up action had an equation there for 

10 calculating the EU excretion, and there was a 

11 factor of eight in there that we couldn't 

12 reference. Then, we have since then found 

13 that reference.

14 So, again, this is a situation 

15 where I added a short additional item to the 

16 end of that response in the old database that 

17 was supposed to get merged with OCAS 1 that 

18 was supposed to get merged into the new 

19 database. So, I'm not sure it made it all the 

20 way to the end.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: When did you merge 
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1 it?

2 MS. THOMAS: I think it was merged 

3 just a couple of days ago.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: Because the last 

5 date on this new one is 3/24.

6 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: So, it must have 

8 been --

9 MS. THOMAS: If we can get it up 

10 on the screen, or, Steve, if you've got it, it 

11 is ORAUT-OTIB-0029-02. If you go down and 

12 look at the NIOSH follow-up action, which has 

13 a date of 1/14/2010, at the very end of that 

14 response, I put in an entry that was dated 

15 5/28/2010.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Which finding was 

17 it?

18 MS. THOMAS: That was 29-02.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: No. Yes, but 

20 which of the findings? Oh, 02.

21 MS. THOMAS: Yes, 02.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: The 02 finding.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: According to 02 on 

3 this, because I only got one that came up on 

4 this, and it is not 02. How do I do that, I 

5 wonder. See, it's not up here.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, go to the 

7 Board thing.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: I did go to that.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: I'll show you what 

11 comes out.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is the second 

13 one right there.

14 MEMBER LEMEN: It is? Where? How 

15 do you know that?

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because it's the 

17 second --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: You've got 03 here.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, okay. So, 

20 they aren't numbered. That's part of the 

21 problem.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Actually, I have more 

2 than that.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: I don't know how 

4 you do that. I've got one, two, three, four 

5 entries.

6 CHAIR MUNN: I have one, two, 

7 three, four.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: But the fourth 

9 entry was what I was reading from.

10 CHAIR MUNN: No, it should have 

11 been --

12 MEMBER LEMEN: The second entry.

13 CHAIR MUNN: -- the second entry.

14 MEMBER LEMEN: Let's see what that 

15 says.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, it is the 

17 first entry. I guess it's the first entry. 

18 The first one is open.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: 29-01 has been 

20 closed. So, it doesn't show up on here.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, it is the 
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1 first entry there.

2 MS. THOMAS: Okay, yes, it is 

3 Finding 02.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: So, 8/13/2009 is 

5 the last entry I have. Is that right?

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, the very top 

7 one.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: That is 10/29/2007.

9 MS. THOMAS: If it's not in the 

10 database --

11 MR. MARSCHKE: It's not in the 

12 database.

13 MS. THOMAS: Okay, I'll see that 

14 it gets in there. It is just a short 

15 paragraph. And we also sent it out as a PDF 

16 file. I sent it to Wanda yesterday.

17 CHAIR MUNN: And I forwarded it to 

18 everybody.

19 MS. THOMAS: Okay. So, if you 

20 want to look at it, you may want to open that 

21 PDF file. I think I've got a hard copy of it 
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1 here. It's 29-02.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: And that was sent 

3 around by Wanda last night, right?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I think I've 

6 got that.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. Yes, this 

8 doesn't have it yet.

9 CHAIR MUNN: It just is not 

10 incorporated.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: I have Wanda's 

12 because I saw that. I just didn't open it. 

13 Wanda, I'm sorry.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Well, that's all 

15 right. I'm accustomed to that.

16 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, maybe I don't 

17 have it. I didn't get it. Did you send it to 

18 the CDC or the other one? That's probably in 

19 my other one.

20 CHAIR MUNN: I think it's in your 

21 other one.
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes, here it is.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Find it?

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes, I've got it. 

4 Looks like there's four downloads on that?

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, there were. 

6 That is correct.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Four different items.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: I've got it then.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Which of the four 

11 was it? What is it called?

12 MS. ADAMS: Additional information 

13 for Procedures Subcommittee. It's in an email 

14 that Wanda sent out.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: But they are not --

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: I've been looking 

17 at the four.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: 02(b)? 02 maybe? 

19 Is that it? Not 02(b), right? 02? Is this 

20 under 14? Twenty-nine. Yes, that's not it.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: I've got an 
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1 OTIB-0029 that was sent out, but it says that 

2 it is Finding 01. Oh, here's 02. I'm sorry.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: There it is. I've 

4 got 01.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, scroll down 

6 and 02 is there.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: Oh, it's on the 

8 same one?

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, and here it 

10 is, 5/28/10.

11 MS. THOMAS: Yes. That little 

12 paragraph there.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: Way down at the 

14 bottom?

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Way down the last 

16 thing on the page.

17 MEMBER LEMEN: 5/22/10.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: It's page 4 of 8.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I still don't 

20 have it. Sorry.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Page 4? Oh, is 
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1 that what Wanda --

2 MEMBER LEMEN: Am I still on the 

3 wrong one? Yes, I guess it must be this one, 

4 then, over here. That's 13. Now 29 is this 

5 one right here.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, yes.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Keep scrolling.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: I did scroll.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Page 4.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: Four? There's 4 of 

11 8.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: You know what? 

13 That is different from what mine --

14 MEMBER LEMEN: 5/28/10, is that 

15 right?

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, keep 

17 scrolling down.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay. 10.9 --

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Go back one page. 

20 Right there.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: That's the one?
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1 MR. KATZ: That's it. That's the 

2 paragraph.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: 5/28/10, right?

4 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay, got it. Not 

6 that that was easy, but --

7 CHAIR MUNN: But you got it.

8 And is there anything in there 

9 that does not meet the --

10 MS. THOMAS: Well, the last time 

11 we met we were to provide this, and the 

12 Subcommittee at that time thought the item 

13 might be closed with an explanation of what 

14 that factor of eight was.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MS. THOMAS: So, maybe take a look 

17 at it.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we have 

19 discussed. That was the only outstanding 

20 concern, as I recall.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I don't even 
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1 remember what the issue was there. There was 

2 a constant in the equation --

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

4 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

5 If you look on the previous 

6 page --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, there is. 

8 I've got you.

9 MS. THOMAS: Yes. Yes, and we had 

10 the equation, but we didn't have the 

11 documentation and the reference for what was 

12 rolled into the factor of eight.

13 CHAIR MUNN: That was what we had 

14 asked for last time --

15 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

16 CHAIR MUNN: -- was a specific 

17 reference. Where did you get that eight?

18 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: And you have given 

20 that to us? Where is the answer?

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. At the bottom 
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1 of Item 2.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, is the 

3 reference actually there?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, the 

5 reference, they say there was no information 

6 in OCC1965 as to what --

7 MEMBER LEMEN: It's in 2, right?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: -- constitutes the 

9 answer.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: It's in 

11 OTIB-0029-02, right?

12 CHAIR MUNN: That's correct.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: But the last entry 

14 is what Paul just showed me, but that doesn't 

15 answer the question.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Well, information 

17 regarding the derivation of the cost of eight 

18 in excretion determination equation has been 

19 located and will be incorporated into the Site 

20 Profile, Section 5312. The factors include 

21 the count time, 30 minutes, counting 
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1 deficiency, 0.5, output volume, 20 

2 milliliters, and hours in a day. This is used 

3 for conversion of the 24th sample, the 24-hour 

4 sample. The time over which the sample was 

5 collected is a variable in the equation.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: Is there any 

7 reference to that or is that just --

8 MS. THOMAS: Well, the reference 

9 isn't in the response, no, but it will be when 

10 it goes into the OTIB.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: Document?

12 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay. So, what you 

14 did was you took this out of a reference or 

15 scientific publication someplace?

16 MS. THOMAS: Yes, or historical 

17 document about the site.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: And you will 

19 reference that when it goes into --

20 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay. Where do we 
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1 go from there?

2 CHAIR MUNN: What is your wish 

3 with regard to this? Do you just want to 

4 continue to hold it on abeyance until the 

5 information has been incorporated into the 

6 procedures?

7 MR. MARSCHKE: What is the current 

8 status of this?

9 CHAIR MUNN: The current status 

10 for this?

11 MR. MARSCHKE: This issue.

12 MS. THOMAS: I think that's all 

13 there was. It was just an explanation for 

14 that factor of eight --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, that there 

16 was a reference.

17 MS. THOMAS: -- and then it could 

18 be closed out after that.

19 CHAIR MUNN: And I believe it was 

20 in abeyance before.

21 MS. THOMAS: I think Mark was 
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1 interested in it. So, I don't know if he's on 

2 the phone still.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Are you still with 

4 us, Mark?

5 (No response.)

6 He gave up.

7 MEMBER GIBSON: Wanda, this is 

8 Mike.

9 He said during break he may have 

10 to get off for a little while.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Thanks, Mike.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Because we are 

13 showing as -- is this the one that we are 

14 looking at it that is shown on half of the 

15 screen? Because that is shown as being open.

16 MS. THOMAS: Does it start out --

17 yes, the ORAU CER database, yes.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: So, all the 

19 information that you have added has not 

20 migrated over, made it over to the new 

21 database yet?
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1 MS. THOMAS: Right. So, that will 

2 be the first thing that I will need to do, is 

3 to enter, make sure our responses are in 

4 there. Then, you can take a look at it and 

5 see if that addresses your concerns.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

7 CHAIR MUNN: I guess my real 

8 concern is if Mike's okay with that, since he 

9 was the one who was primarily concerned.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Mark.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Mark. I'm sorry. 

12 Since Mark's not with us right now, let's 

13 leave this open for the time being for us 

14 right here today, until we see if Mark comes 

15 back. If he does not come back, then I would 

16 suggest we place this in abeyance because all 

17 we are waiting for is for NIOSH to incorporate 

18 what we have asked for. We will come back to 

19 it just before we close to see if Mark has 

20 taken a look at that and is okay with it.

21 The status of the database update 
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1 on the program limits and hot links for items 

2 like -- I gave you specific ones -- to verify 

3 discussion capture.

4 I think this is the same item that 

5 we discussed at length this morning, and we've 

6 been assured that that is okay, correct? Is 

7 it going to happen, can happen, not a problem?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, specifically, 

9 I think the specific action item was to do 

10 with the old database, which NIOSH actually 

11 went through, and the hot links were not 

12 working on the old database.

13 CHAIR MUNN: But that's a moot 

14 point.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: But it is a moot 

16 point at this point, yes.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: So, now the hot 

19 links would be working on the new database.

20 MR. TURNER: Yes, since they are 

21 all migrated over to new documents.
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1 The issue for us is the difference 

2 between how you guys look at them and how we 

3 look at them. We reference the K: drive; you 

4 guys reference the O: drive. So, it is a 

5 matter of actually putting in the entire 

6 string for the location of the documents 

7 versus a drive letter.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 MR. TURNER: So, once we get 

10 everything migrated over with that, everyone 

11 will be able to see them.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Perfect. Just what 

13 we wanted.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: And these documents 

15 will reside on the O: drive?

16 MR. TURNER: Yes.

17 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Is Mark 

18 back yet?

19 (No response.)

20 MEMBER LEMEN: So, what are we 

21 going to do with that one?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: It's done.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: So, it's closed?

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Verify OTIB --

5 MEMBER LEMEN: One question.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: When it's closed, 

8 where does it go now, back to get a summary 

9 written?

10 CHAIR MUNN: Well, there's no need 

11 to summarize this. This was an internal 

12 process issue, how to get the database to 

13 work. It wasn't a question --

14 MEMBER LEMEN: So, there is 

15 nothing further to do on that?

16 CHAIR MUNN: No.

17 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay.

18 CHAIR MUNN: No, it's been 

19 captured by --

20 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay.

21 CHAIR MUNN: -- Leroy and the IT 
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1 team.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: I've got you.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Verify OTIB-0051-01 

4 link is complete and the item closed. NIOSH?

5 MS. THOMAS: Okay. Again, I was 

6 only looking at the old database. So, I may 

7 have to defer till the next time --

8 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

9 MS. THOMAS: -- to make sure that 

10 gets done.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Carryover.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: So, we're deferring 

13 that? Carryover?

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: When you say, 

16 carryover, that means for the next agenda?

17 CHAIR MUNN: The next agenda, 

18 we'll have it.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay.

20 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB-0021-02, 

21 response to SC&A calculation differences 
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1 sources, and -04, response to the 

2 documentation question.

3 MS. THOMAS: Yes. On this one, 

4 Matt Smith provided this information to Stu 

5 back in August of 09, and I'm not sure if Stu 

6 forwarded it to the Subcommittee. So, again, 

7 right now, it should be kind of a database 

8 issue. Again, I have those responses. It 

9 will be a matter of if Stu sent them to the 

10 Subcommittee or not. What I need to do is get 

11 those into the database.

12 So, again, if you would put that 

13 on for next time, then we can look at it.

14 So, I have the responses. They 

15 are just not viewable.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

17 MEMBER LEMEN: They're not 

18 presentable.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, not ready for 

20 primetime, but, hopefully, on our next go21 round.
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1 Report on the status of ORAU --

2 oh, we've done that, correct? We have taken a 

3 look at that, and it's done.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: We did that this 

5 morning, didn't we?

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: Is it closed or 

8 done?

9 CHAIR MUNN: No, the status, it's 

10 not done. My memory is it's in progress.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: That's the one that 

12 is in progress.

13 MR. KATZ: That is the one that 

14 SC&A is working on.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MR. KATZ: It's not reported out 

17 yet.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: Got you.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: We just gave that 

20 little two-page handout this morning.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: That's this? Okay.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

4 Transfer acceptance complete for 

5 TBD-6000-06. My action and complete.

6 I have not written the letter 

7 officially transferring --

8 MEMBER LEMEN: On transferring, 

9 okay.

10 CHAIR MUNN: -- the acceptance. I 

11 haven't gotten it back from Paul.

12 The status of OTIB-0070-15. 

13 Issues, priority. NIOSH.

14 MS. THOMAS: OTIB-0070?

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MS. THOMAS: Oh, yes, we don't 

17 have responses to those yet.

18 CHAIR MUNN: We moved those up --

19 the reason it says priority is because there 

20 is so much interest in what's going on with 

21 that.
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1 MS. THOMAS: Yes, I know, and we 

2 will have them soon.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Think there is any 

4 possibility we will have them by next time?

5 MS. THOMAS: I'll do my best.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Next time being 

7 when?

8 MEMBER LEMEN: When is next time?

9 CHAIR MUNN: We haven't 

10 established that yet, but it is certainly 

11 going to be more than 30 days. We know that.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Maybe we can get a 

13 commitment from NIOSH before we let them know 

14 when it is.

15 (Laughter.)

16 CHAIR MUNN: Well, in that case, 

17 we might just as well move on.

18 MS. THOMAS: I think I gave you 

19 one didn't I? I said I think so.

20 CHAIR MUNN: In that case, perhaps 

21 this is an appropriate time for us to take a 
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1 look at our calendars.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: That is what I 

3 thought. That is the last one on the docket.

4 Are you talking July or are you 

5 talking August?

6 CHAIR MUNN: We're talking July. 

7 At the end of July, if we can. You don't want 

8 to get too close to Idaho Falls.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: When is that: Idaho 

10 Falls?

11 CHAIR MUNN: Idaho Falls is the 

12 10th.

13 MR. KATZ: The 10th, 11th, and 

14 12th.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MEMBER LEMEN: And we have a 

17 teleconference on the 14th, is that correct?

18 CHAIR MUNN: And we have a 

19 teleconference on the 14th of July.

20 MR. KATZ: Of July, yes.

21 CHAIR MUNN: How does the last 
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1 week in July look like for most of the people? 

2 Any problems?

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I have 

4 something scheduled, so I'll have to change 

5 mine.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I also have 

7 scheduled --

8 CHAIR MUNN: The whole week?

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. I might be 

10 able to change.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Is the preceding week 

12 acceptable?

13 MEMBER LEMEN: That's the week 

14 right after the conference call.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. I do not 

16 anticipate -- Ted, do you anticipate the 

17 conference call being very long or extended?

18 MR. KATZ: Well, it doesn't 

19 matter; it eats that day.

20 MEMBER LEMEN: What?

21 MR. KATZ: It doesn't really 
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1 matter. I mean it will be in the middle of 

2 the day, so you can't really work in a --

3 CHAIR MUNN: No, no, I'm not 

4 thinking of working it in.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: She just wants to 

6 know if you have got a lot to talk about or 

7 not.

8 MR. KATZ: Well, it's up to the 

9 Board really. The Board is going to have an 

10 SEC Class to talk about, and that is the first 

11 time they have dealt with a large Class on a 

12 conference call. So, that may take more 

13 significant time than the usual item. But it 

14 is not as extensive an agenda in general, I 

15 don't think it will be, as it was the last 

16 teleconference.

17 CHAIR MUNN: I'm just thinking in 

18 terms of workload for the people who are 

19 sitting here.

20 MEMBER LEMEN: I can pretty much 

21 do Monday, Tuesday, or Thursday of that week, 
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1 but not a problem of changing things. That is 

2 the 19th, 20th, and 22nd. But Monday, the 

3 22nd, my birthday is the 23rd, so we would 

4 have to have a birthday party.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, yes, we will have 

6 to have a party. Let's do it on Dick's 

7 birthday, and then we can all get cake.

8 (Laughter.)

9 Is the 20th okay?

10 MR. KATZ: The 20th is okay.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: The 20th is fine 

12 with me.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Mike?

14 MEMBER GIBSON: The 20th of what, 

15 Wanda?

16 CHAIR MUNN: Of July.

17 MR. KATZ: Of July.

18 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, that is okay.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Mark, are you back 

20 yet?

21 (No response.)
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1 Mark's not coming back.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: And that would be 

3 here again?

4 CHAIR MUNN: It would be here.

5 So, given that we are talking 

6 about the 20th of July, Elyse, can we make any 

7 kind of commitment about OTIB-0070? Is there 

8 any kind of --

9 MS. THOMAS: I will have to check 

10 on that.

11 CHAIR MUNN: If there is any large 

12 club that we can provide, please do let us 

13 know.

14 MS. THOMAS: Okay.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: Start at 9:30, the 

16 same time?

17 CHAIR MUNN: 9:30, yes, please. 

18 It's very helpful for me.

19 MR. KATZ: Let's set an 

20 alternative date just in case. I'm a little

21 bit worried that I have something that is not 
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1 showing up on my BlackBerry.

2 MR. SMITH: All right.

3 MR. KATZ: But if we could choose 

4 a second date as an option later than that?

5 CHAIR MUNN: Rather than earlier?

6 MR. KATZ: Right.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Well, could we do it 

8 on the 22nd? Is that still a problematic 

9 thing?

10 MR. KATZ: Oh, it's okay. I'll 

11 take that back. I found what I was looking 

12 for that had me worried.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: So, we can leave it 

14 on the 20th?

15 MR. KATZ: Yes, the 20th is okay. 

16 Sorry about that.

17 CHAIR MUNN: No, that's quite all 

18 right. Better now than later.

19 All right. I have no more issues 

20 on the agenda that's printed. I guess we 

21 should take a look, decide about OTIB-0029. 
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1 Shall we simply carry that over until Mark is 

2 available to comment on it?

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: I don't think 

4 anything is lost by carrying it over --

5 CHAIR MUNN: I don't think so, 

6 either.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- in terms of 

8 practical impact of it.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: There's no group 

10 waiting for that, right?

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: No.

12 MR. SMITH: Not that I know of.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's only a matter 

14 of confirming that --

15 CHAIR MUNN: How things were being 

16 handled.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- equation and 

18 some basis in the literature, I think.

19 CHAIR MUNN: That is his primary 

20 concern.

21 Anything else that anyone has any 
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1 concern about that needs to be on our next 

2 agenda?

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Now if NIOSH is 

4 not able to get that work done -- you know, 

5 they have a lot of things on their platter, 

6 but at some point we need to know that soon 

7 enough. I mean to set aside a day for this 

8 many people, unless we have substantive work 

9 to do --

10 MR. SUNDIN: I'll certainly carry 

11 that back as a priority.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean we had some 

13 odds and ends, but some of the odds and ends 

14 aren't as critical as some of the more major 

15 things.

16 CHAIR MUNN: That's quite true. 

17 One of the other things that we have not done 

18 in a long time is we have not taken a look at 

19 our completely open issues. We still do have 

20 quite a number that we have not addressed at 

21 all. And at some juncture, we need to take 
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1 those up.

2 So, if we have a short agenda, 

3 even though -- we need to understand the 

4 reason for the short agenda. If the short 

5 agenda is because NIOSH is overworked and 

6 cannot accomplish the open items that we still 

7 have, then we need to know that and make some 

8 administrative decisions about how to handle 

9 these things.

10 Yes, Steve?

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I just wanted to 

12 mention that Brant sent out two emails last 

13 Thursday.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, he did.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: One of them was on 

16 OCAS-TIB-014 and some NIOSH responses, and 

17 Joyce is looking at those responses.

18 The other one was about PER-004 

19 and PR-008. Basically, if I recall what the 

20 email said was, the NIOSH response was that 

21 these documents, PR-008 has been canceled and 
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1 the NIOSH proposal to close the finding. The 

2 same is true, I think, for PER -- the other 

3 document that he did, he mentioned, PER-004.

4 So, I just mention that to the 

5 Subcommittee. I don't know if you want to put 

6 it on the agenda for next time or if we want 

7 to talk about it this time.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Well, if no one has 

9 any objection, I would really like to at 

10 least, since Matt went to the effort to get it 

11 to us, I would like for us to take a look at 

12 it. Thank you for bringing that up.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes, Wanda, this is 

14 John.

15 I know you guys are probably 

16 anxious to get out. Just real quickly --

17 CHAIR MUNN: Not that anxious, 

18 John, not if it's important.

19 DR. MAURO: The three PERs, 

20 Blockson, thoracic lymphoma, and there was a 

21 third one, oh, the high-fired plutonium. As 
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1 you discussed during the full Board meeting, 

2 those PERs have been delivered.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: But I would say 

5 Blockson, I guess the Blockson one is sort of 

6 a very unusual one in that, given that I 

7 believe the vote during the Board meeting 

8 regarding the Blockson model -- where I'm 

9 headed is we want to do the cases that go with 

10 each PER.

11 MR. KATZ: Okay, but, John, let me 

12 interrupt here.

13 DR. MAURO: Okay.

14 MR. KATZ: Because you are sort of 

15 derailing what was just ponied up.

16 DR. MAURO: Okay. I guess I 

17 couldn't hear too well. I'm sorry.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes, I'm sorry.

19 So, what Wanda was saying is 

20 OTIB-0014, Brant has provided responses to 

21 that.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Was that OTIB-0014, 

2 yes.

3 MR. KATZ: Yes, OTIB-0014 and 

4 PER-004, and then another item. And Wanda 

5 would like, since he has provided those 

6 responses for several documents, Wanda would 

7 like to take those up now.

8 DR. MAURO: Oh, I'm sorry. You 

9 know, I really couldn't hear that well. My 

10 apologies.

11 MR. KATZ: No, that's okay. It's 

12 okay.

13 But let's go forward with those, 

14 right?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, PER-004 was 

16 basically, kind of defining the structure of 

17 PER-004 doesn't follow the guidance provided 

18 in PER-008. Basically, NIOSH says that PER --

19 not the guidance followed in PER-008; the 

20 guidance provided in PR-008.

21 The NIOSH response was PER-004 was 
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1 written before PR-008 was, before any guidance 

2 was available. And SC&A had recommended the 

3 status be changed to in abeyance until NIOSH 

4 completes a revision or deletes PR-008, and 

5 PR-008 was canceled.

6 So, really, the thing is, the 

7 bottom line is both of these documents, 

8 PER-004 and PR have been, if I am reading what 

9 Brant wrote here correctly, both these 

10 documents have been canceled.

11 MR. KATZ: Wait. Can you be clear 

12 which? Both? You said PER-004 and which 

13 other one?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: PER-004-01 is the 

15 finding number.

16 I'm having trouble with my email.

17 CHAIR MUNN: So am I.

18 MS. THOMAS: That's the finding, 

19 but only OCAS Procedure 8 was canceled. The 

20 finding on PER-004-01 has to do with OCAS 

21 Procedure 8.
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1 So, I think Brant was suggesting 

2 that, since OCAS-PR-008 was canceled, you 

3 know, that this finding for PER-0004 or 004 

4 should be closed. But PER-004 was not 

5 canceled; just Procedure 8.

6 MR. KATZ: Okay. Thank you.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: These are in the 

8 new document system, right?

9 CHAIR MUNN: No, they're not. 

10 They are in Brant's email.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: Right, right.

12 MS. THOMAS: Does that make sense 

13 to you, Steve, too?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

15 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. You explained 

17 it much better than I was stumbling over 

18 myself here.

19 CHAIR MUNN: I guess the only 

20 question is whether we are comfortable with 

21 the decision to cancel PR-008 as being 
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1 adequate closure for the issue.

2 MR. KATZ: So, does anyone have 

3 the issue that they can pull up and summarize?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Well, what we have on 

5 the original finding, SC&A's original finding 

6 said the statement in Section 433 refers back 

7 to Section 42, but the wording is inconsistent 

8 and may cause confusion. Also, Section 5.4 

9 refers back to Section 5 in two places that 

10 actually refers to information in Section 4.

11 And NIOSH agreed, said that the 

12 PER process has changed a lot since they did 

13 PR-008, and a lot of discussion had gone on 

14 about it. And therefore, PR-008 would either 

15 be revised or canceled until such time as PER 

16 activity resumes and PER process is clarified.

17 Well, activity has resumed. The 

18 process is clarified. We had it in abeyance.

19 SC&A agreed with the 

20 recommendation that was made with respect to 

21 PR-008, and now NIOSH is saying PR-008 was 
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1 canceled in June. So, therefore, we can now 

2 be closed.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: So, PR-008 is 

4 closed? Is that what you're saying?

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

6 MS. THOMAS: PR-008 is canceled.

7 MR. KATZ: PR-008 is canceled, and 

8 that was the action promised as one of the 

9 alternatives to close this issue. So, it 

10 sounds like you have already preliminarily 

11 agreed.

12 CHAIR MUNN: We agreed.

13 MR. KATZ: So, 008 --

14 MEMBER LEMEN: 008 is canceled.

15 CHAIR MUNN: That's right.

16 MR. KATZ: PR-008 is canceled.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

18 DR. MAURO: Does someone have the 

19 title of that offhand?

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Preparation of 

21 Program Evaluation Reports and Program 
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1 Evaluation Plans.

2 DR. MAURO: Oh, the generic one? 

3 Oh, okay.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

5 DR. MAURO: Got it.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: So, that's 

7 canceled.

8 MR. KATZ: So, that's canceled.

9 So, then, Finding 1 of PER-004 is 

10 moot now. It is solved.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: When you cancel 

12 something like that, do you just throw that 

13 away now?

14 CHAIR MUNN: No.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: Or what do you do 

16 with it?

17 CHAIR MUNN: It goes into our 

18 closed box, and the closed box is what we have 

19 been talking about having wrap-ups at the tail 

20 end.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes. So, that 
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1 would be a wrap-up one?

2 CHAIR MUNN: That will be a wrap3 up one, along with the factor.

4 MR. KATZ: Well, no, you will do a 

5 wrap-up on PER-004 when you conclude your 

6 review of that.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

8 MR. KATZ: But PR-008 is canceled.

9 CHAIR MUNN: That's canceled.

10 MR. KATZ: That's DCAS decides to 

11 cancel that. But you don't have to do -- on 

12 PER-004, when you've gone through all the 

13 findings and resolved all the findings, that 

14 is when you would draft a two-page summary. 

15 But the rest of the findings aren't closed yet 

16 as far as I know.

17 MEMBER LEMEN: And that's PER?

18 MR. KATZ: PER-004.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: Right. Got you.

20 MR. KATZ: Right.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: The question on 
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1 PR-008 is --

2 MEMBER LEMEN: So, it's still 

3 open?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: -- I'm showing two 

5 findings, both of them being in abeyance. So, 

6 the question becomes, why is Brant only 

7 recommending one of them be closed? Or am I 

8 missing -- no, he's recommending they both be 

9 closed.

10 MS. THOMAS: On PER-004 --

11 MR. KATZ: PER-004.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: PR-008, he's got 

13 two pages.

14 MS. THOMAS: Hold on a second.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, he's 

16 recommending both closures.

17 MS. THOMAS: Okay.

18 MR. KATZ: Okay. So, that's 

19 Findings No. 1 and No. --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: That's Finding No. 

21 PR-008-01 and PR-008-02.
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: But that's 

2 canceled, right?

3 MR. MARSCHKE: And those are 

4 closed because --

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Or closed.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: -- the PR has been 

7 canceled.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 MR. KATZ: But, see, then you're 

10 saying those also result in closing PER-004-01 

11 finding?

12 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

13 MR. KATZ: Okay. So, there are 

14 three findings getting closed, two associated 

15 with the old document and one associated with 

16 the --

17 MEMBER LEMEN: Which is 004-01, 

18 right?

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

20 MR. KATZ: 004-01 is the current 

21 document that has one finding. Right, one 
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1 finding is closed on that.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: And that's the 01 

3 finding?

4 MR. KATZ: Yes. Yes.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Thank you.

6 MR. KATZ: Okay.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: So, we should add, 

8 in the new database, we add a response here 

9 saying something along the lines that this 

10 issue has been closed.

11 CHAIR MUNN: But can't you just 

12 use Brant's words?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't have them 

14 to steal them. Can I steal them?

15 CHAIR MUNN: OCAS-PR-008 was 

16 canceled on 6/3/10. Therefore, NIOSH proposes 

17 this finding be closed, and the Subcommittee 

18 agreed.

19 I did not hear any objection to 

20 closing this. Is there any objection from the 

21 Subcommittee members?
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1 Mike?

2 MEMBER GIBSON: I'm sorry, I 

3 wasn't on the phone.

4 What's that?

5 CHAIR MUNN: I said I didn't hear 

6 any objection from any of the Subcommittee 

7 members about following NIOSH's suggestion to 

8 close this item.

9 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I'm okay with 

10 that.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you.

12 MS. THOMAS: Not to change the 

13 subject, but I did hear from some of the 

14 authors who will be working on OTIB-0070, and 

15 I think they can do it before your next 

16 meeting.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Good. Thank you.

18 MS. THOMAS: So, we'll certainly 

19 try.

20 CHAIR MUNN: At least we will have 

21 something by then?
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1 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Good.

3 MR. KATZ: But, ideally, at least 

4 a week in advance, so that SC&A has a chance 

5 --

6 MS. THOMAS: Yes, you can look at 

7 it.

8 MR. KATZ: -- to review those 

9 responses --

10 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

11 MR. KATZ: -- as well as the Work 

12 Group members.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I think if you look 

14 at PR-008, you will see now that the two 

15 issues associated with that have been closed.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Good.

17 MR. KATZ: Okay.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Leroy, I can't find 

19 PER-004 in the new database. Can I find PERs?

20 MR. KATZ: It does have PERs.

21 MS. ADAMS: No, Stacy this morning 
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1 said there were only two PERs in there so far.

2 MR. KATZ: They haven't all been 

3 loaded? Okay.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: So, we'll just have 

5 to --

6 MR. KATZ: So, we'll have to 

7 update the database when it is all in there. 

8 I mean, Steve, you can do that. Steve, I mean 

9 you can update the database? You know, 

10 they'll enter all this stuff.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, I guess the 

12 question is, do I have the Subcommittee's 

13 approval to close PER-004-01 when I get the 

14 capabilities?

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MR. KATZ: Yes.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: And Paul was 

18 pointing out that I have an extra he at the 

19 end of my -- when I cut and paste, I cut and 

20 paste a little too much. And when we get the 

21 capability to edit, I will have to go through 
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1 and edit this.

2 MR. KATZ: So, Steve will update 

3 that in the interim before the next report, I 

4 mean the next meeting.

5 So, you still have OTIB-0014 from 

6 Brant, too.

7 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB-0014?

8 MS. THOMAS: It's TIB-014.

9 MR. KATZ: TIB-014.

10 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

11 MR. KATZ: Sorry.

12 MS. THOMAS: That's okay.

13 CHAIR MUNN: OCAS-TIB-014.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, and those are 

15 a little bit more substantive, and I asked 

16 Joyce to take a look at them. So, I am sure 

17 we will have a response by the next --

18 MR. KATZ: Okay, so that's for the 

19 next meeting.

20 MS. THOMAS: Okay. And then, what 

21 I will do is make sure those responses that 
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1 got sent around are added to the new database.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

3 MS. THOMAS: How about that?

4 CHAIR MUNN: So, on TIB-014, is 

5 the work that Joyce is doing, I think I heard, 

6 going to cover what SC&A views as required but 

7 absent? That specific question was asked in 

8 the NIOSH response. What data does SC&A view 

9 as required but absent? And what specific 

10 part of the document is missing required 

11 references?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

13 CHAIR MUNN: So, that report will 

14 address that. In the meantime, is there any 

15 objection to the recommendation that it be 

16 designated as in abeyance instead of open?

17 DR. MAURO: Wouldn't that be in 

18 progress?

19 CHAIR MUNN: In progress is more 

20 appropriate, I think.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, PER is a 
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1 Program Evaluation Report.

2 DR. MAURO: Yes, all that means is 

3 we haven't hit it yet.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and we have now 

5 done that.

6 DR. MAURO: Yes.

7 CHAIR MUNN: We are starting the 

8 whole process. So, in process is appropriate 

9 for 14-01.

10 DR. MAURO: I don't want to throw 

11 a fly in the ointment, but this adds to it 

12 Rocky Flats?

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it does.

14 DR. MAURO: Am I looking at the 

15 right one?

16 CHAIR MUNN: You are.

17 DR. MAURO: I just want to make 

18 sure that the Rocky Flats Work Group is okay 

19 with us handling this. I don't know if the 

20 Rocky Flats Work Group is still active.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: I don't know if it is 

2 or it isn't.

3 I remember one of our sort of 

4 ground rules was that there was a site5 specific procedure that we reviewed, and if 

6 there was an active Work Group on that, that 

7 would be transferred. If there wasn't, it 

8 would continue to be reviewed under this 

9 Subcommittee.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I think that 

11 Work Group is still active. Because aren't 

12 they waiting for a response from Labor on the 

13 Ruttenber data?

14 MR. KATZ: Yes, they are.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MR. KATZ: They are. I mean they 

17 are not active in the sense that they are 

18 convening meetings, but --

19 CHAIR MUNN: No.

20 DR. MAURO: I mean maybe this is 

21 one of those conditions where it is more 
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1 appropriate to be handled here; we can more 

2 conveniently do that, as long as I guess Mark 

3 is comfortable with that.

4 MR. KATZ: Well, Mark's on this 

5 Subcommittee.

6 DR. MAURO: Yes. Sure. No, I 

7 know. So, this issue came up before, you 

8 know.

9 MR. KATZ: Yes.

10 MS. THOMAS: I just heard that 

11 OCAS was going to cancel or DCAS was going to 

12 cancel TIB-014. So, I will have to check with 

13 Brant when he gets back because I don't know 

14 if that changes --

15 MR. KATZ: So, Joyce is looking at 

16 this response, but then we are going to cancel 

17 the --

18 MS. THOMAS: That is what I think.

19 DR. MAURO: Oh, you know, we could 

20 pull the plug. I mean it's probably a good 

21 idea to find out about that.
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1 MS. THOMAS: Yes, let me find out.

2 MR. KATZ: Yes.

3 MS. THOMAS: And then let John 

4 know.

5 MR. KATZ: Yes, let's do that 

6 because let's not have Joyce waste her time on 

7 a procedure that --

8 CHAIR MUNN: Can we please 

9 communicate that by email to the Subcommittee?

10 MR. KATZ: Yes.

11 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

12 CHAIR MUNN: And that is 

13 identified --

14 MR. KATZ: So, John, can you ask 

15 Joyce to just hold her horses until she hears 

16 back?

17 DR. MAURO: Will do.

18 MR. KATZ: Thanks.

19 CHAIR MUNN: And if it is going to 

20 be canceled, then this becomes an entirely 

21 different issue. So, let us know.
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1 MS. THOMAS: Okay, I will.

2 CHAIR MUNN: And we will have that 

3 on our list for verification of status next 

4 time. Hopefully, we can resolve that maybe 

5 even by email in the meantime.

6 Any other items?

7 MR. KATZ: So, Wanda, just 

8 thinking about the next meeting, I am just 

9 trying to get a grip on what is the meat of 

10 the next meeting. We have OTIB-0070. We have 

11 the two-pager.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

13 MR. KATZ: And then, we have a lot 

14 of these little bits and pieces that aren't 

15 that substantive that we have gone over and 

16 pushed off until the next meeting, but they 

17 are really kind of minor.

18 Do we have PER-012 at the next --

19 that at one point I thought was a high 

20 priority. That is evaluation of highly 

21 insoluble plutonium compounds, PER-012.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: It is one of those 

2 that we were going to -- wasn't John going 

3 to --

4 MR. KATZ: Well, John is raising 

5 the issue, but, again, I think he forgets that 

6 we just had an interaction about this. The 

7 Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee, when it 

8 meets, will have to assign cases to finish up 

9 the evaluations --

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

11 MR. KATZ: -- of several PERs for 

12 which sort of the front end has already been 

13 done, and it is now the sort of validation, or 

14 whatever, of how it was put into effect by 

15 looking at dose reconstruction cases.

16 That has to be done, but that has 

17 to be done by the Dose Reconstruction 

18 Subcommittee.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we can't get 

20 past SC&A's Step 3 until dose 

21 reconstruction --
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1 MR. KATZ: My only question was I 

2 thought at one point the Subcommittee talked 

3 about PER-012, wanting to look at, I mean, the 

4 front end of that and wrestle with not the --

5 I mean it seems to me this Subcommittee could 

6 still -- John, maybe you want to weigh-in on 

7 this -- can still discuss the whole front end 

8 of that evaluation before it has the dose 

9 reconstruction cases in hand.

10 DR. MAURO: Absolutely. I mean, 

11 certainly, we could do that. The examples are 

12 really to validate that the things that are 

13 committed to were, in fact, implemented. But, 

14 remember, the front end of the process is to 

15 review what the changes are, and based on, I 

16 guess, the technical approach.

17 That is, there really are two 

18 issues. Whenever you review a PER, really you 

19 ask yourself, is the criteria for selecting 

20 the cases valid? You know, let's say we're 

21 talking the one dealing with high-fired 
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1 plutonium. A good way to think about it is 

2 the first thing you really have to look at is 

3 there was a process that NIOSH went through to 

4 select the cases that would be reviewed, and 

5 there's a set of criteria they used to select 

6 them. It is not always all cases that were 

7 denied. Sometimes it is some subset of that 

8 and there is a basis for that. And we comment 

9 on that. I know, for example, we have 

10 commented on that on the high-fired plutonium.

11 Then, the next question is, all 

12 right, the method for redoing the dose -- in 

13 other words, we know that the way it was done 

14 previously, where these people were denied, 

15 now it is going to be redone using a new 

16 protocol, and the new protocol is laid out in 

17 some procedures that it turns out we may or 

18 may not have reviewed. In this case, we have 

19 reviewed the procedure. I think it was 

20 OTIB-0049.

21 So, the PER, then, evaluates --
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1 and then we review the degree to which the 

2 technical validity, completeness of the new 

3 protocol for doing in that case the dose 

4 reconstruction to the high-fired plutonium. 

5 And we stop there and write a report. Right 

6 now, you have reports for three of those.

7 Then, of course, the last step is, 

8 given that everything is copacetic and we are 

9 completely supportive of the technical 

10 approach and the scope, then it becomes, okay, 

11 did it really hit the ground running and was 

12 it actually implemented the way they committed 

13 to implement it in real cases?

14 So, yes, it is very severable. 

15 The case reviews are very severable from the 

16 -- so, the three parts, parts 1 and 2 

17 certainly could be discussed in this 

18 Subcommittee, and we could save any discussion 

19 of the actual cases for wherever you feel it 

20 is best discussed. It could be discussed with 

21 the Subcommittee or with the other, the DR 
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1 Subcommittee. That is also another place 

2 where the back end could be discussed.

3 DR. H. BEHLING: John, this is 

4 Hans Behling.

5 I just wanted to add something to 

6 what John said. The very, very important 

7 thing here, however, especially in the case of 

8 PER-012, is that it is going to require a lot 

9 of support from NIOSH because in my writeup, 

10 and I guess it is the section probably where I 

11 summarized it, the total number of cases that 

12 may have to be reviewed are 1,577, which is a 

13 large number of cases.

14 And to complicate matters, there 

15 are a total of 10 different mutations by which 

16 the PER will actually reconstruct the revised 

17 doses for these people. And the 

18 recommendation, therefore, is to perhaps 

19 sample from among the 1,577 based on the type 

20 of revision that will be required to reassess 

21 these people's doses.
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1 And we have not really discussed 

2 that, and I think that will need some 

3 discussion by the Work Group. But in the 

4 actual selection of the universe of cases for 

5 which we may have sample subsets, regardless 

6 of which number we will agree upon, that has 

7 to be really done by NIOSH because they are 

8 the only people who have access to the 

9 database that will allow us to determine which 

10 cases we would potentially or the Work Group 

11 will determine which cases we want to 

12 actually, then, sample the audit from.

13 So that NIOSH has a significant 

14 role in this whole process.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes, interestingly 

16 enough, we will get to this. And, Hans, you 

17 correct me if I am wrong. When we reviewed 

18 the high-fired plutoniums PER, we came down

19 favorably on parts 1 and 2.

20 DR. H. BEHLING: Yes.

21 DR. MAURO: And we reviewed 
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1 OTIB-0049, I think that was the number, on the 

2 science. So, in a funny sort of way, I mean 

3 if we were to load that up right now and put 

4 it in the system, we would recommend that the 

5 issue be closed because we find that the 

6 protocol -- I recall reading Hans' report. 

7 Hans found that the selection criteria for who 

8 is going to be redone and also the technical 

9 approach for redoing them was sound.

10 So, I mean, we could move through. 

11 I'm not sure where we stand with regard to 

12 thoracic lymphoma, you know. Maybe Hans, I 

13 don't know if you found favorably in those 

14 cases --

15 DR. H. BEHLING: Well, we had some 

16 differences of opinion, and I think Jim Neton 

17 can weigh in on this. We identified two 

18 potential problems with the thoracic lymphoma 

19 issue, and one was for the early time period 

20 when a lymphoma was diagnosed, let's say in 

21 the seventies and eighties, the technology 
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1 really wasn't there to allow people to 

2 determine the cell line of origin that might 

3 give rise to that lymphoma, which is, 

4 obviously, key to the whole issue of the PER.

5 And the second issue was the issue 

6 of the impact of smoking. I think Jim, and I 

7 think the Board members themselves or the Work 

8 Group members, had concluded that this would 

9 take a specific ad hoc committee with high 

10 levels of knowledge regarding the impact of 

11 smoking on lung function, and that would be 

12 prohibitive.

13 And so, therefore, as far as I am 

14 concerned, the issue of the PER-020 for 

15 lymphoma -- no, that's not 20; that was 

16 PER-009 -- was something that I think at this 

17 point requires no additional comments or work 

18 on the part of the Work Group, other than help 

19 in the selection process of cases that are to 

20 be audited based on the PER-009.

21 DR. MAURO: The good news is, for 
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1 the first two parts of the PER review -- so, 

2 that was for the high-fired and the thoracic 

3 lymphoma -- I mean, in theory, you probably 

4 can move those through very quickly. It is 

5 the back end of the process where things take 

6 some time, which may or may not be something 

7 that this Subcommittee would want to take on 

8 because it has to do with dose reconstruction 

9 reviews.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Well, let's bring 

11 this back --

12 DR. MAURO: One more item, should 

13 we kill Blockson? Basically, we have a 

14 situation now where I think that the PER for 

15 Blockson really does not reflect the latest. 

16 Blockson was revised, the Site Profile, and 

17 the PER was issued, and cases were redone. 

18 But when you look at the new Site Profile, it 

19 still does not reflect the latest set of 

20 conditions, and it also sounds like Blockson 

21 is moving very aggressively since the denial 
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1 of the radon model toward an SEC.

2 So, I guess we still have to 

3 review -- well, the PER process is in a funny 

4 place right now, given that there's this SEC 

5 issue at play that I was bringing up before.

6 So, these are the three PERs that 

7 are sort of before the Subcommittee, and they 

8 do create a degree of complexity that we want 

9 to sort out.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Well, let's not try 

11 to sort it out this afternoon. It's late and 

12 we're all weary.

13 Let's try to focus on the issue of 

14 whether or not -- I like your term, John --

15 severability is applicable to the first of the 

16 PERs. Twelve?

17 MR. KATZ: Twelve and 9, both of 

18 those, it seems to me, at least this 

19 Subcommittee could take up those at the next 

20 Subcommittee meeting, and that could be part 

21 of the meat of the meeting. No?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: It might not be a bad 

2 idea, especially since they are done. The 

3 findings are out there. And even though we 

4 can't do anything past address those specific 

5 findings, there is no reason why we shouldn't 

6 continue to do that, if it meets the approval 

7 of the other members of the Subcommittee.

8 Does anyone have objection to 

9 that?

10 MEMBER LEMEN: No.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: No. Let's do it.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Mike?

14 MR. KATZ: Is that good to you, 

15 Mike?

16 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, go ahead and 

17 put that on the agenda, yes.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Mark?

19 MR. KATZ: Mark is not there, I 

20 think.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, he's not.
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1 MR. KATZ: John?

2 DR. MAURO: Yes?

3 MR. KATZ: I mean I think the 

4 Subcommittee can also give guidance to the 

5 Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee about case 

6 selection, even though the Dose Reconstruction 

7 Committee will carry that out.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes.

9 MR. KATZ: So, that would be 

10 useful, too.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Well, Mark will be 

12 here.

13 MR. KATZ: Right.

14 CHAIR MUNN: He will be able to 

15 carry that water.

16 Any other additions, corrections?

17 MR. KATZ: The other question I 

18 have is whether there are open items, new open 

19 items, that would be a priority for the next 

20 meeting.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, yes, that's 
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1 good, Ted, because on the new database there 

2 is a report, if you click on the report 

3 button, dropdown, and you get the table, which 

4 is called SC&A Findings Status Report. It 

5 just basically shows all the documents, and it 

6 gives numbers as to the total number of 

7 findings, the number of closed, the number of 

8 open ones. And you can just look down the 

9 open column and see which document has a lot 

10 of open issues associated with it and put 

11 those on the hit list, I guess.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes, I really would 

13 like to see that. Because, you know, we are 

14 at about 75 percent home on this one. In 

15 other words, when Steve prints out the table 

16 -- I don't have it in front of me -- and I add 

17 up how many items have been either 

18 transferred, closed, or in abeyance, I add 

19 them all up, and I know there are about 550 

20 findings, three-quarters of them are, for all 

21 intents and purposes, behind us.
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1 Boy, it would be great to hit the 

2 open ones that we haven't even talked about 

3 because it would be great to be able to get to 

4 the point where we're saying, well, we're 

5 basically done. We've closed out six years of 

6 history, and I would like to make a sprint to 

7 the finish line.

8 CHAIR MUNN: We would all like to 

9 do that, John, but this is the third time we 

10 have addressed the same issue. The really 

11 heavy bucket is in NIOSH's lap. And for us to 

12 be saying here's what we want to look at now, 

13 when we are not being able to address what we 

14 have on our plate already, is not, it seems to 

15 me, reasonable. Perhaps I'm being too blase 

16 about that.

17 But if the agency is not being 

18 able to take on more of a burden than we are 

19 providing to it now, it seems unwise to me for 

20 us to load them up further by saying, all 

21 right, and here are all the extra open items, 
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1 too.

2 Perhaps I am just being too 

3 pragmatic about that, but --

4 MR. KATZ: Well, what I was going 

5 to suggest is, if you just want to -- we have 

6 about a week before I have to get a Federal 

7 Register notice out. So, if you would want to 

8 select a procedure with a bunch of open items 

9 that you would like to focus on, we can at 

10 least put that to the NIOSH group as a 

11 possibility, and they can respond as to 

12 whether they can get to that in time, if their 

13 response is what is needed at this point. 

14 Then, at least there is a potential for going 

15 on the agenda. Obviously, if they can't 

16 fulfill that within the six weeks, or whatever 

17 there is, five weeks, then that's fine.

18 MS. THOMAS: I think the two big 

19 ones are OTIB-0070 responses and OTIB-0054 

20 responses.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think that is 

2 true.

3 MS. THOMAS: And I think we can 

4 get the OTIB-0070 responses done for the next 

5 time. Then, we will try maybe to get the 

6 OTIB-0054 for the time after that.

7 MR. KATZ: Okay.

8 MS. THOMAS: I don't think we can 

9 get them both done by July.

10 MR. KATZ: Okay.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Ted, what I would 

12 prefer to do is to have an item on our agenda 

13 next time where we look at open items and have 

14 the Subcommittee debate whether or not there 

15 is reason to select some of those as priority 

16 items.

17 MR. KATZ: Okay.

18 CHAIR MUNN: We have on several 

19 occasions talked about prioritizing some of 

20 the open items, but have not done that. I 

21 would prefer that to be the action --
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1 MR. KATZ: Sounds good.

2 CHAIR MUNN: -- for next time.

3 Any other comments?

4 (No response.)

5 If not, thank you all. Special 

6 thanks to the IT team.

7 MR. KATZ: Yes, Leroy, thanks a 

8 lot.

9 CHAIR MUNN: We do appreciate that 

10 ever so much.

11 And you will be hearing from us by 

12 email and otherwise.

13 And we will see you in July.

14 MR. KATZ: Thank you, everyone on 

15 the line.

16 DR. H. BEHLING: Bye-bye, 

17 everybody.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Bye-bye.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

20 matter went off the record at 4:46 p.m.)

21
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1

2

3

4

5