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1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON LINDE CERAMICS PLANT

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY

MAY 30, 2012

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened 

telephonically at 2:30 p.m., Eastern Daylight 

Time, Genevieve S. Roessler, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT:

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Chair

JOSIE BEACH, Member 

JAMES E. LOCKEY, Member
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2 ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

ANTOINETTE BONSIGNORE

NICOLE BRIGGS, SC&A

NICK BROUSSE

WALT KOCH

JENNY LIN, HHS

JIM NETON, DCAS

STEVE OSTROW, SC&A

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU Team

 
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3 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Welcome/Roll Call and Introductions 4 

Work Group Discussion 4 

Motion and Vote 56

Adjournment 58

 
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4 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (2:36 p.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: Let's get started with 

4 roll call then, officially.

5 (Roll call.)

6 MR. KATZ: Very good. The agenda 

7 for the evening is posted on the NIOSH 

8 website. There's also a document, a 

9 PowerPoint, that Gen has prepared for the Work 

10 Group. That's posted on the NIOSH website and 

11 available to you all. And it's your agenda, 

12 Gen.

13 CHAIR ROESSLER: Thank you, Ted. 

14 And I want to first thank 3M in St. Paul, 

15 Minnesota for providing me an office. I'm on 

16 my way to a retirement party and in order to 

17 get this call in, someone was gracious enough 

18 to do this for me.

19 So first, I think, with regard to 

20 the Work Group activities, I want to just do a 

21 little bit of a review of where we are so 

22 we're all on the same page. We have finished 
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5 1 our SEC business and our TBD evaluation, 

2 except for two issues on the TBD which relate 

3 to the utility tunnels at Linde.

4 I want to just remind people that 

5 these issues are only pertinent during the SEC 

6 periods and affect only those workers who 

7 would not be covered under the SECs. At our 

8 last face-to-face meeting, which was on 

9 January 30th, and then on our teleconference 

10 on February 15th, we dealt with these two 

11 issues.

12 And basically, they were: what 

13 dates were the various utilities tunnels built 

14 and how much time did the workers spend in 

15 these tunnels? And this would be important 

16 for the dose reconstruction.

17 And it's important because 

18 different areas at Linde have different levels 

19 of radiation exposure and radioactivity. The 

20 Work Group, SC&A, and NIOSH came to an 

21 agreement on the dates on the construction of 

22 the tunnels after the January 30th meeting, 
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6 1 and then we continued that discussion on 

2 February 15th.

3 We had viewed very detailed 

4 construction diagrams and other information at 

5 that face-to-face meeting. However, we wanted 

6 to go one step further and see if we could 

7 resolve some discrepancy between what we had 

8 concluded were the dates of construction and 

9 some worker testimony.

10 So we thought the best way to do 

11 this was to try to convene as many workers as 

12 possible, show them the same diagrams that we 

13 had been looking at and working from, and then 

14 have some discussion about them.

15 We thought that it would also be a 

16 good time to get some firsthand information on 

17 time that workers of various categories might 

18 have spent in the tunnels. So on April 30th, 

19 in Buffalo, we had this information meeting.

20 We really appreciate the efforts 

21 of Mark Lewis and Mary Elliott from ATL for 

22 arranging this meeting, getting the workers 
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7 1 together, and they also prepared minutes from 

2 the meeting.

3 Everyone who was present at the 

4 meeting, I believe, has had access to the 

5 minutes. I went over them and I thought they 

6 did a very good job on that and it's nice to 

7 have a summary of what we discussed.

8 At the meeting, we were able to 

9 clarify what we earlier thought was, you know, 

10 because of the worker testimony, we thought 

11 there was a discrepancy about the tunnel 

12 construction dates, and then we spent a lot of 

13 time talking about that, and I think the 

14 discrepancy that we had thought existed really 

15 doesn't exist, but we'll go into that a little 

16 more later.

17 Then we also came to an agreement 

18 on tunnel occupancy factors, and I've got that 

19 in the PowerPoint presentation. So that our 

20 goal for this meeting today is for the Work 

21 Group to agree on what we're going to present 

22 to the Board at the June meeting.
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8 1 And this will be, from what I can 

2 tell from the agenda, during the regular Work 

3 Group reports. So I thought it would be 

4 helpful to put a draft together. So, with 

5 Josie's help, I drafted a PowerPoint 

6 presentation with the plan to use this, or 

7 however we alter it, for this report.

8 So I think what the first thing we 

9 should do today is decide whether we want to 

10 go over these slides, I think, how many do we 

11 have, about nine I think, one by one and look 

12 them over, or since you've all seen them, we 

13 could probably just state whether we have any 

14 changes or comments.

15 My plan then, once we finalize 

16 this presentation, would be that we will do 

17 this at the Work Group meeting -- I mean, at 

18 the Board meeting in June, we'll keep it 

19 brief, since we're only on as a part of the 

20 regular Work Group reports.

21 However, if anyone has any 

22 questions, and this gets to be kind of a 
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9 1 complicated situation because we're basing a 

2 lot of what our decisions were on those large 

3 diagrams that we've looked at at various 

4 meetings.

5 So we're asking Jim Neton, I think 

6 we've asked Jim Neton this, to bring these 

7 diagrams to the meeting in the event any Board 

8 Members might have questions, then we could 

9 take a break, and we could look at them, and 

10 answer any questions then.

11 So with that, Jim or Josie, do 

12 either one of you have any preference as to 

13 how we proceed to look at this PowerPoint 

14 presentation?

15 MEMBER LOCKEY: Gen, I had a 

16 chance to go through it yesterday and today 

17 again, and I think it does reflect the meeting 

18 that we had with the workers, and it's 

19 concise, and it essentially states what I feel 

20 are the facts based on the information we 

21 currently have available.

22 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. The brief 
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10 1 part is something I tried to achieve. I had 

2 first had about five or six slides trying to 

3 talk about the time of the construction of the 

4 tunnels, and then without any hesitation at 

5 all, I borrowed the figure that Steve Ostrow 

6 presented in one of his reports, which is in 

7 color and outlines the various time periods.

8 And I thought that that one slide 

9 would do what I was trying to do on a lot of 

10 other slides.

11 MEMBER LOCKEY: And then we had an 

12 extensive discussion with the worker 

13 representatives there about how much time the 

14 craft professionals spent in the tunnels, and 

15 I think, as reflected in the slide, we decided 

16 that 50 percent of the time was a reasonable 

17 figure.

18 Also, a figure that's Claimant19 friendly, but it's always hard to predict how 

20 much craft time is needed, but they're down 

21 they're down there doing the maintenance and 

22 construction and tear-down and things like 
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11 1 that, so I think it's a very reasonable 

2 figure. And I think we said 5 percent for 

3 everybody else.

4 CHAIR ROESSLER: Thank you. And 

5 that's reflected in the last slide in the 

6 PowerPoint.

7 MEMBER LOCKEY: Right. But we did 

8 spend a lot of time talking about that at the 

9 meeting; how much time did they, overall, on 

10 average, the time that they worked there 

11 during the spring, summer, fall, winter, how 

12 much, on average, was spent within the 

13 tunnels, either doing construction work, or 

14 traveling, or retrofit work, or new 

15 construction work, and I think the consensus 

16 was 50 percent, and that seemed like a 

17 reasonable figure.

18 CHAIR ROESSLER: As I recall, it 

19 seemed like we were zeroing in on 35 percent. 

20 One of the workers had thought that was 

21 pretty good and then when, I think, Jim 

22 mentioned 50 percent, everybody said, well, 
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12 1 that's very claimant-friendly.

2 MEMBER LOCKEY: Right.

3 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, Gen, I agree. 

4 So I did look over the slides and I went back 

5 through and read all the notes from the 

6 meeting. I think it might be handy to have 

7 the notes available to the Board. If they're 

8 interested, they might want to review those.

9 MS. BONSIGNORE: This is 

10 Antoinette, I don't have any of the notes from 

11 the meeting. I'd like to get a copy of that.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: Ted, is it 

13 possible? I know we talked yesterday about 

14 getting them, whatever you call it, getting 

15 them cleared for other people to get a set, I 

16 think especially Antoinette, and the Board 

17 Members, it would be very helpful for them to 

18 have that.

19 MEMBER BEACH: Well, and I think 

20 the workers involved should have a copy of 

21 them also.

22 CHAIR ROESSLER: They do.
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13 1 MS. BONSIGNORE: That's my point. 

2 I think it's somewhat not appropriate to be 

3 relying on the minutes from the meeting unless 

4 the workers who were there can verify the 

5 statements and say that's what they meant to 

6 say.

7 CHAIR ROESSLER: It was my 

8 understanding they were supposed to have 

9 gotten a copy.

10 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well, I think I'd 

11 know if anybody had received anything like 

12 that.

13 MR. KATZ: This is Ted. Can you 

14 hear me? Am I on mute?

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: No, you're on.

16 MR. KATZ: Oh, okay. Great. 

17 Sorry, I think I was talking on mute.

18 The notes that were taking by ATL 

19 were taken to help the Board Members with 

20 their memory, but this was not, like, an 

21 outreach meeting that DCAS does, or that SC&A 

22 does, where they send it out to get -- because 
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14 1 the Board Members were there firsthand to 

2 report.

3 I totally agree, though, if we're 

4 going to send these minutes to the rest of the 

5 Board, then they ought to be PA-cleared, they 

6 need to be shared with Antoinette and the 

7 workers as well, and we can do that.

8 It wasn't clear to us, since these 

9 notes were really a convenience for the Board 

10 Members, to what extent you want to rely on 

11 these notes at all, since you were there 

12 involved in that discussion.

13 And frankly, and to some extent, I 

14 mean, your involvement in that discussion was 

15 more important than the notetaking because 

16 there were a lot of parallel conversations 

17 going on at certain points which made it 

18 pretty difficult for the ATL person, Mary, to 

19 do her notetaking for you.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: Right.

21 MR. KATZ: But anyway, I will 

22 certainly send that into the system. The 
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15 1 version that we make public has to be PA2 cleared, which means names have to be 

3 redacted, and so on, but the participants who 

4 were there at the meeting, of course, don't 

5 need to get a PA-redacted version because they 

6 were there listening to each other in the 

7 first place.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: So the workers 

9 who were present could get a copy of it as is?

10 MR. KATZ: I think so. I'll have 

11 to check that, but I don't see any reason why. 

12 Maybe if Jen's on the line, she could tell 

13 me.

14 MS. LIN: Ted, this is Jenny with 

15 HHS OGC. Since those minutes were taken by a 

16 federal agency and become part of our agency 

17 records, in order to make them available to 

18 the public, we would have to redact them, 

19 regardless of whether the participants who 

20 will be receiving them were actually aware of 

21 the redacted names.

22 MR. KATZ: Wait, I'm sorry, so, 
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16 1 Jen, I just want to understand. So I know we 

2 have to redact them to make them publicly 

3 available, but for the participants, they have 

4 to receive redacted versions even though they 

5 were actually in the meeting?

6 MS. LIN: That's correct, because 

7 that's not their record. Does that make 

8 sense?

9 MR. KATZ: Okay. Yes, I don't 

10 have a problem with -- the rules are the 

11 rules, so we'll get those redacted in terms of 

12 names and distribute them.

13 CHAIR ROESSLER: So that would 

14 also apply to Antoinette then, even though she 

15 participated.

16 MS. LIN: Correct.

17 MR. KATZ: Jen was saying it 

18 applies to even the workers who were in the 

19 room.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. I would 

21 comment on this before I forget, I thought the 

22 notes that were taken, from my memory, were 
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17 1 accurate. The only thing I would change on it 

2 is the title that ATL put on it was "Interview 

3 with Former Workers." We really weren't 

4 interviewing them. I think we were just 

5 discussing. I would say "discussions with" or 

6 something along that line.

7 MR. KATZ: Yes. I mean, that's 

8 fine. I mean, I also think that, you know, 

9 that doesn't change the content in any way.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes, I think it 

11 better reflects what our intent was.

12 MR. KATZ: Yes.

13 MEMBER LOCKEY: This is Jim 

14 Lockey. As I remember, towards the end of the 

15 meeting, we all sort of stood around and 

16 talked among ourselves, and as a group, we had 

17 said we've reached consensus here. Are these 

18 maps truly reflective? Is this the history? 

19 And are these figures reasonable figures in 

20 relationship to the craft and non-craft people 

21 in the tunnel?

22 And I think everybody who was 
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18 1 there said yes to that. So that's my recall 

2 and I think Gen and Josie will have to voice 

3 with that what they thought, but I left that 

4 meeting thinking that there was consensus.

5 MEMBER BEACH: Oh, Jim, I agree 

6 with you. It was handy to have the minutes, 

7 but I was very comfortable with our 

8 discussions and the agreement amongst 

9 everybody on what took place during that 

10 meeting.

11 MEMBER LOCKEY: Okay.

12 MEMBER BEACH: So I thought 

13 everybody was comfortable. I know the Linde 

14 folks, we talked to them as they were leaving, 

15 and everybody seemed comfortable.

16 MEMBER LOCKEY: And they were 

17 appreciative of us making the effort to come 

18 out and talk to them.

19 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: I think, though, 

21 we went out of our way a little bit, well, 

22 maybe quite a bit, actually, to set up this 
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19 1 meeting in Buffalo because we really wanted to 

2 get the workers' input. If it takes one more 

3 little step, and maybe it's not a little step, 

4 to get the notes PA-cleared and to the 

5 workers, and to Antoinette, you know, I think 

6 we ought to do that.

7 MR. KATZ: No, Gen, it's not a 

8 problem.

9 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. Good.

10 MR. KATZ: We'll get that done as 

11 quickly as we can and we'll send it out to all 

12 the people who showed up, as well as 

13 Antoinette, and we will also distribute it to

14 the Board for the June meeting as you wish.

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. So then, I 

16 think at this point, I'm looking to the Work 

17 Group, are you comfortable with the PowerPoint 

18 presentation as is?

19 MEMBER BEACH: Well, Gen, the only 

20 comment I would make is, possibly, if we could 

21 send out the maps electronically ahead of time 

22 so that people have a chance if they wish to 
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20 1 view them, and that's just a suggestion.

2 I know it's easier when they're in 

3 front of you and they're full, but I spent 

4 some time looking at all the maps again 

5 yesterday, and you can blow them up on your 

6 computer, and some of the Board Members may 

7 have interest in doing that.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: I don't think 

9 that should be a problem. Well, Jim would 

10 probably have to answer that one.

11 DR. NETON: Yes, that will not be 

12 a problem.

13 MEMBER BEACH: Well, and 

14 especially the three that are involved here, 

15 the early ones, you know, the 57 and 61. I 

16 think if those three could go out, that way we 

17 don't confuse, you know, the situation. I 

18 think that would be important.

19 DR. NETON: So the original 37, 

20 57, and 61 drawings?

21 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, or any of 

22 them.
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21 1 DR. NETON: I think it would also 

2 be good to provide them that schematic that we 

3 handed out that had the, you know, sort of the 

4 pipe drawing.

5 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

6 DR. NETON: Have it all connected 

7 on one page.

8 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

9 DR. NETON: Do you know what I'm 

10 talking about?

11 MEMBER BEACH: And that's the one 

12 that I think is in the PowerPoint. Is that 

13 the one you're talking about?

14 DR. NETON: Well, it's a little 

15 more detailed than that.

16 MEMBER BEACH: That's true. Yes, 

17 Jim, I remember. Yes, I think that's a good 

18 idea too because that's a very --

19 DR. NETON: You know, it had 

20 color-coded sections so you could tell which 

21 year was which.

22 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.
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22 1 CHAIR ROESSLER: And then Josie 

2 also pointed out there was one corner of one 

3 diagram, it was fairly long, and it was fairly 

4 detailed --

5 MEMBER BEACH: Sixty-one.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: -- that really, I 

7 think, convinced the two of us that, yes, this 

8 was a pre-construction diagram, that if there 

9 was anything different than what was on there, 

10 it certainly would have been mentioned. I 

11 think if that part could be blown up, and, 

12 Josie, maybe you can guide Jim as to what --

13 DR. NETON: I think I know which -

14 - 

15 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, it was the 61 

16 map. I tried to blow up that section or I was 

17 trying to copy the details and then print them 

18 off, but it just came into gibberish, so I 

19 wasn't able to. So I just saved notes on 

20 that.

21 DR. NETON: I think I might be 

22 able to get someone more knowledgeable than I 
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23 1 in this stuff to do that. I know what you're 

2 talking about. There's sort of a legend 

3 section in the upper right-hand corner.

4 MEMBER BEACH: Yes. It's under 

5 notes.

6 DR. NETON: Yes. And in 

7 particular, I think Footnote 5 talks about the 

8 movement of the utilities from the trestle 

9 into the --

10 MEMBER BEACH: The trestle, yes.

11 DR. NETON: -- tunnels as they 

12 were completed. I think that was very 

13 informative.

14 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, and it also 

15 talks about the roads, the tracks --

16 DR. NETON: Right.

17 MEMBER BEACH: -- making sure that 

18 those carriers were in place until the tunnel 

19 was -- anyway, it was very informative.

20 DR. NETON: Yes. I'll see if I 

21 can get it blown up, if not, we'll just have 

22 to point the Board Members to the relevant 
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24 1 section and maybe they can blow it up on their 

2 own.

3 MS. BONSIGNORE: This is 

4 Antoinette. Will there be a point where I can 

5 -- I have some questions about that meeting, 

6 and about the maps, and actually, about the 

7 PowerPoint presentation.

8 And I'd like to make a statement 

9 and ask for some clarification on items, so I 

10 just wanted to mention that because this seems 

11 to be going very quickly, and I don't want 

12 there to be any misconception that I, or the 

13 workers, agree with the Work Group's 

14 assessment here.

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: Would it be 

16 appropriate -- would you have more time, 

17 maybe, to do that during our meeting today?

18 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes. Well, I'm 

19 asking, I just want to make sure that there's 

20 time allocated for me to ask some follow-up 

21 questions, because there seems to be an 

22 indication that all of the workers agreed with 
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25 1 what your assessment here is in the PowerPoint 

2 presentation with regard to the construction 

3 dates of the tunnels, and that is not 

4 accurate, and I think that needs to be 

5 clarified.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well, it was my 

7 conclusion when we were at the meeting that we 

8 did have agreement --

9 MEMBER BEACH: There was actually 

10 one worker that was present that did not agree 

11 with that assessment. I do recall that.

12 MS. BONSIGNORE: That's correct, 

13 and I spoke with a number of the workers after 

14 the meeting because it was very difficult for 

15 me to follow that meeting. Most of the time I 

16 couldn't follow anything at all, and so I 

17 spoke with some of the --

18 CHAIR ROESSLER: Antoinette, we 

19 broke up. It turned out that we were going to 

20 try and keep it all in one Group and then we 

21 began sort of one-on-one discussions, and I 

22 tried several times to bring everybody 
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26 1 together, but then I looked around and I 

2 thought, you know, this is productive.

3 Let's let them do this for a while 

4 and then we'll come, all, back together, and 

5 we did, around the table, and at that point, 

6 and I think this is reflected in the minutes, 

7 what I tried to do is say, okay, here's what I 

8 think we've decided. I outlined it. I gave 

9 everybody a chance to respond, to object, and 

10 I thought at that point we really did have 

11 consensus on these items that we were 

12 discussing.

13 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right. Well, 

14 that's what I'm trying to clarify here, Gen, 

15 is that, I spoke with some of the workers 

16 after the meeting, and they don't have any 

17 confidence in what the maps actually indicate.

18 With respect to the information 

19 that was imparted regarding the occupancy, 

20 those were their statements, but with respect 

21 to the actual maps that were presented, most 

22 of the workers that I spoke with afterwards 
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27 1 felt as though they could not trust whether 

2 these maps were accurate or not.

3 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well, they didn't 

4 indicate that to us at the meeting, so I don't 

5 know --

6 MEMBER BEACH: With the exception 

7 of one individual.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: Can we say names 

9 on this phone call? Which one are you 

10 thinking of, Josie?

11 MEMBER BEACH: I thought it was --

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: Is that the one 

13 who was not present, but we had a letter?

14 MEMBER BEACH: No, no, this one 

15 was present.

16 DR. NETON: I can tell you a name 

17 if we're allowed to reveal it. Can we say the 

18 name?

19 CHAIR ROESSLER: I don't know.

20 DR. NETON: Jenny?

21 MS. LIN: Sorry. I was on mute 

22 myself. No, you shouldn't say the name.
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28 1 DR. NETON: Okay. Well, this is a 

2 person that had previously provided an 

3 affidavit. There are two affidavits out 

4 there. The earlier affidavit was from a 

5 gentleman who started work, I believe, in 

6 1953, and he was at the meeting, and he was 

7 the one worker there -- first of all, all the 

8 workers agreed that none of them had been in 

9 the 1957 constructed tunnels prior to 1957. I 

10 think that was agreed.

11 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes, it was.

12 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well, one of the 

13 workers said he couldn't be sure anymore.

14 DR. NETON: Well, at the meeting I 

15 can say that that's what he stated. Now, in 

16 the 1961 tunnels, there was one worker who 

17 said that he was in the tunnels between 

18 junction boxes, I think, 6 and 8, which would 

19 be the 1961 tunnels, prior to 1961. That's 

20 what he said and that's consistent with his 

21 affidavit.

22 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right. And then 
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29 1 I think I know the worker that you're speaking 

2 of, who was talking about whether he was in 

3 the 1957 tunnel, what you're calling the 1957 

4 tunnel, prior to 1957. When I spoke to him 

5 after the meeting he felt as though he could 

6 not, in good conscience, say definitively 

7 whether or not.

8 He's not saying that he definitely 

9 was or definitely wasn't. So again, I want to 

10 be clear here that his statement is not being 

11 misconstrued here. He is not agreeing with 

12 you about the construction date of what you're 

13 referring to as the 1957 tunnel. He's saying 

14 that he simply, at this point, because it's 

15 been over 40 years, cannot say definitively 

16 whether he was in it or not.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well, that's a 

18 big change from what we had before at the 

19 meeting, though.

20 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well, it's a 

21 change, yes, but again, there is doubt. I 

22 mean, I can make this argument now or I can 
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30 1 make it at a later point. I mean, obviously, 

2 the Work Group has come to a consensus on 

3 this. I disagree with your conclusion, and I 

4 will be making that argument to the Board for 

5 their final vote on this issue.

6 But I don't believe that there is 

7 100 percent definitive proof that the tunnel 

8 that ran between Buildings 30 and 31 was 

9 constructed in 1957. You have one worker who 

10 says that he possibly could have been in it, 

11 but he's not sure anymore, and you have 

12 another worker who submitted a written 

13 statement, a written affidavit saying that he 

14 was in that tunnel in, I believe, 1952 and 

15 1953.

16 MEMBER BEACH: Antoinette, this is 

17 Josie. Have you looked at the 1961 map?

18 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes. I have 

19 looked at all the maps and that's the second 

20 point that I'd like to get to. I feel as 

21 though this PowerPoint presentation doesn't 

22 really explain anything about the maps. I 
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31 1 mean, that one slide that was taken from the 

2 SC&A report is non-explanatory; I'm sorry to 

3 say.

4 I think if you're going to use 

5 these maps as a justification to reduce the 

6 amount of exposure for workers who are being 

7 re-dosed and having their claims reevaluated 

8 under the dose reconstruction, then there has 

9 to be greater explanation as to what all of 

10 the maps say, what DCAS believes all the maps 

11 say, and what the Work Group believes all the 

12 maps say.

13 This, to me, is insufficient. I'm 

14 sorry. It's simply not. You need to provide 

15 a detailed explanation as to why you believe 

16 the maps should be used to reduce the amount 

17 of exposure that will be assigned to these 

18 workers.

19 CHAIR ROESSLER: It seems then 

20 that that's -- I guess the way I interpret the 

21 Work Group's responsibility is that's what we 

22 were to determine. That's why the Work Groups 
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32 1 are established, to do this detailed work, and 

2 then present our findings to the Board.

3 If we take this whole explanation 

4 to the Board, and we could, I suppose, take 

5 all of those maps and everything, it's going 

6 to take several hours. I think it's sort of 

7 going beyond or around what the Work Group was 

8 assigned to do.

9 MS. BONSIGNORE: Then perhaps it's 

10 a job for DCAS to do, to have something in 

11 writing, explaining what they believe each of 

12 the maps that they have provided to the Work 

13 Group, to myself, to some of the workers in 

14 Buffalo who have viewed these maps, provide an 

15 explanation as to what they believe each of 

16 the maps represents, and how it supports their 

17 theory about the tunnel construction dates.

18 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well, I think we 

19 need to ask this question of Jenny and Ted, 

20 probably. First of all, I'm not sure that 

21 there's going to be a vote on this. My 

22 understanding is it's a Work Group report, 
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33 1 this is the way the review of a TBD is 

2 handled, so that's one point.

3 The other one is that, again, if 

4 we follow the usual procedures, and I think 

5 we've even gone beyond that here, the Work 

6 Group evaluates the situation, comes to a 

7 conclusion, says this is the way we see it, 

8 and we move on from there. I don't know. We 

9 need input, I think, from Ted and Jenny on --

10 MS. BONSIGNORE: If I could just 

11 make one additional comment. I've spoken with 

12 Dr. Melius about this and he agreed that there 

13 would be a vote on this by the full Board on 

14 this issue. So that's what he told me 

15 personally.

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay.

17 MS. BONSIGNORE: That was part of 

18 the agreement about having this meeting in 

19 Buffalo setup, having the workers agree to 

20 meet with NIOSH representatives, that there 

21 would be a full Board vote on this issue. That 

22 was the agreement.
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34 1 MEMBER LOCKEY: Gen, I think the 

2 Work Group here can vote on presentation and 

3 how the Work Group proceeds, when the tunnels 

4 were constructed, and based on the totality of 

5 the information that is currently available, 

6 more likely than not a conclusion could be 

7 reached. And then it's up to the Board to 

8 decide whether they want to accept that or 

9 not.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: And then I think 

11 too, the plan to actually go -- I still think 

12 the plan to go with a very brief report, like 

13 I've proposed, to the Board, but give the 

14 option for the Board to look at the diagrams, 

15 any Member of the Board, during break, to look 

16 at the diagrams, discuss it with NIOSH, SC&A, 

17 and Work Group Members, I think that would be 

18 the most effective way to go about this.

19 MEMBER LOCKEY: I agree with that. 

20 And I came away from the meeting in New York 

21 thinking that -- I became more certain that 

22 what was reflected on the construction 
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35 1 diagrams was really, in fact, what was taking 

2 place.

3 It is hard to go back 40 or 50 

4 years and figure out where somebody has worked 

5 and what they did, and I have trouble with my 

6 own memory, what I did 40 or 50 years ago. But 

7 I think the majority of the evidence in this 

8 case is pretty persuasive that the 

9 construction maps pretty much reflected what 

10 was going on at that site.

11 And I came away from the meeting 

12 in New York feeling that, in fact, that's the 

13 case. So I'm willing to have a vote now, at 

14 least for the Working Group, about your 

15 presentation.

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: Then I think we 

17 should do that, but I think the question 

18 Antoinette brought up is: will she be able to 

19 have a statement at the time of the Board 

20 meeting? And I assume the answer is yes.

21 MEMBER LOCKEY: Yes, absolutely. 

22 There's no reason that that cannot be -- I 
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36 1 would say yes to that too.

2 MR. KATZ: This is Ted. I just 

3 want to answer some of your questions here. 

4 One, the Linde agenda item is its own separate 

5 agenda item now, from 9:30 to 10:00 on the 

6 third day, that's June 21st, so it's no longer 

7 tucked in with other Work Groups. So we made 

8 it its own agenda item so that it would be 

9 very clear that this would be addressed here 

10 for Antoinette and the workers' sake.

11 So when the agenda goes out, when 

12 we have a final agenda to send out, that'll go 

13 out, but at this point, at least, that's where 

14 it's scheduled. Sometimes things get moved 

15 around because of logistical problems with 

16 different times and when people can 

17 participate.

18 But in any event, so it's on there 

19 for half an hour. That session does not have 

20 a public comment section, but there's a public 

21 -- we, on purpose, put it on Thursday also, 

22 because Wednesday night, there's a public 
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37 1 comment session when Antoinette would have an 

2 opportunity to make her comments.

3 And Jim and I discussed this 

4 before, and this is how we wanted to handle 

5 it, so that she would have this comment period 

6 in advance of when the Linde matter is taken 

7 up by the Board.

8 I did not discuss with Jim the 

9 issue of voting, so I would have to trust what 

10 Antoinette says, that he committed to the 

11 Board voting. Typically, the Board doesn't 

12 vote on TBD matters at all. It hasn't voted 

13 on other TBD matters for other sites, but that 

14 doesn't mean the Board can't vote on any 

15 matter that's within its jurisdiction here, so 

16 I don't have an issue with that whatsoever.

17 That's all I can tell you about 

18 that, but I trust if Antoinette said that 

19 there would be a Board vote, then there will 

20 be a Board vote. It was plain to me that it 

21 was to be an opportunity, at very minimum, for 

22 the Board to ask questions and discuss this 
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38 1 with the Work Group.

2 CHAIR ROESSLER: That helps a lot. 

3 Let me just clarify. The Linde separate 

4 session, then, is on Thursday?

5 MR. KATZ: So the Linde session is 

6 separate, yes, and it's on Thursday.

7 CHAIR ROESSLER: And Antoinette 

8 will have an opportunity Wednesday night to 

9 make her statement during the public session.

10 MR. KATZ: Exactly. And there's a 

11 public comment session from 6:00 to 7:00 the 

12 night before.

13 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. That takes 

14 care of two things, and I guess my next 

15 question would be, since we're a separate 

16 section, that does give us more time for 

17 discussion. What I envisioned was, perhaps, 

18 is there room in the agenda or is the agenda 

19 constructed so that we could make our 

20 presentation, then there would be a break for 

21 people to look at diagrams, then we could come 

22 back and discuss further if necessary?
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39 1 MR. KATZ: Yes. Right. To address 

2 that, we have a break. We have another 

3 presentation after Linde, and then we have a 

4 break, and then the rest of that morning is 

5 Board work session.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay.

7 MR. KATZ: So, yes, there is sort 

8 of some flexibility in there for the Board to 

9 further discuss, or to spend time looking at 

10 maps. I think I would encourage -- and when 

11 we send out the materials, when I get the 

12 materials from Jim, the maps, as well as the 

13 Privacy Act-cleared notes that were taken in 

14 support of your meeting in Buffalo, when we 

15 get those materials and send them out to the 

16 Board, I think I would encourage them -- I 

17 mean, we may be able to have Board Members, 

18 you know, have a look at those maps in advance 

19 as opposed to doing it on the last day.

20 So we may work something out so 

21 that they look at those either during a work 

22 session, or on their own in the evenings, or 
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40 1 whatever. We have time to work with prior to 

2 that during the Board meeting.

3 CHAIR ROESSLER: I think that 

4 would be helpful because I'd hate to have this 

5 all still be up in the air on Thursday without 

6 enough time to complete the discussion.

7 MR. KATZ: Yes, I understand. I 

8 think that's good.

9 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. And I 

10 think the other thing that I'll volunteer to 

11 do, or maybe Josie, and I, and Jim all 

12 together, or one, two, or three of us, can get 

13 on the phone with Jim Melius and tell him what 

14 our approach is and get his -- you know, he 

15 can tell us what he plans to do.

16 MS. LIN: Gen? This is Jenny with 

17 HHS OGC. I just want to add that a Board's 

18 vote on a TBD issue, such as the tunnel 

19 construction dates, is not legally required.

20 MR. KATZ: Oh, no. I understand 

21 that, Jenny. Thank you. I mean, absolutely, 

22 the Board's vote is not required and the 
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41 1 Board's, you know, guidance with respect to 

2 TBDs is just that, it's guidance anyway. At 

3 the end of the day it's up to the program to 

4 make decisions about their TBDs.

5 MS. LIN: Right.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Thank you.

7 MR. KATZ: Absolutely.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. I think 

9 that clarifies a lot to me. I wonder if any 

10 other Work Group Members have questions or a 

11 plan for where we go from here?

12 MEMBER BEACH: I guess I have one 

13 question. Antoinette, you didn't mention the 

14 last bullet talks about the time spent in the 

15 tunnels.

16 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right.

17 MEMBER BEACH: Were you in 

18 agreement with what we decided, the 50 percent 

19 and the 5 percent, or did you --

20 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes, I mean, 

21 that, to me, is a judgment call. I mean, the 

22 Work Group's provided as much information as 
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42 1 they possibly could, so I don't really have 

2 any specific objections to that.

3 However, I do have a question 

4 about an outstanding item that SC&A was 

5 supposed to be working on with respect to the 

6 effluent issue and the injection wells. I 

7 believe at one of the last official Work Group 

8 meetings, that they were supposed to be taking 

9 a closer look at that issue, and some of the 

10 memoranda from the 1940s, and I don't know if 

11 they've done that.

12 And I'd also like to ask Dr. Neton 

13 a question about some of the documents that 

14 were retrieved from the New York State 

15 archives dealing with the effluent issue and 

16 whether I can get copies of those documents, 

17 or whether the Congressional offices can get 

18 copies of those documents, in advance of the 

19 next Board meeting.

20 I've identified some of the 

21 documents from the archive list that were sent 

22 to Senator Schumer, Senator Gillibrand, and 
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43 1 Congressman Higgins last month, and there are 

2 some documents from 1944-1946 dealing with the 

3 discharge of Linde effluents into the site 

4 wells.

5 And I'd like to be able to review 

6 those documents in advance of the Board 

7 meeting if possible.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well, I think we 

9 should take care of that today. Probably the 

10 first thing is, I didn't have this on my list 

11 of issues, but the effluent issue, and you 

12 first asked if SC&A had a response there, 

13 Steve, do you have anything on that?

14 DR. OSTROW: Gen, we weren't 

15 tasked to look at that. I'm looking at my 

16 notes, now, we're talking from the Buffalo 

17 gathering that we had, and my notes from that 

18 says that NIOSH is going to look at data about 

19 ground contamination from the '40s, injection 

20 well overflow, to determine if it's important 

21 radiologically whether that portion of the 

22 tunnel existed before 1961.
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44 1 As far as I can see, we weren't 

2 actually tasked to do this.

3 MS. BONSIGNORE: Steve, it wasn't 

4 at that meeting. It was at a full Work Group 

5 meeting prior to --

6 MEMBER BEACH: I think it was when 

7 we actually got together and looked at the 

8 maps, but I do recall it.

9 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: The Work Group 

11 meeting, wasn't that the one on January 30th?

12 MEMBER BEACH: It was the one 

13 prior to the phone. We had a phone --

14 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes. We met 

15 face-to-face, that, I think, was an actual 

16 Work Group meeting in Cincinnati on January 

17 30th. And, you know, I guess one thing we 

18 could do is go back to the minutes on that. 

19 They're actually posted on the website and I, 

20 you know, don't remember anything from that 

21 meeting. Jim, do you? Jim Neton?

22 DR. NETON: No. I don't recall 
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45 1 anything directly related to the injection 

2 well from that meeting, but I do recall an 

3 email that was sent to Ted by Ms. Bonsignore 

4 related to the injection wells. It included 

5 several New York State documents and -- that's 

6 all I recall.

7 It was bundled up with the 

8 affidavit from the second worker. I'm looking 

9 for it now and I can't find it right away.

10 MS. BONSIGNORE: I think the 

11 request that was -- and it was a discussion I 

12 was having at one point with Josie and I think 

13 it might have been maybe the February meeting; 

14 if I'm --

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: That was our 

16 teleconference? Yes, Antoinette, could you 

17 explain a little bit more about the effluent 

18 issue and does that impact a TBD --

19 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well, here's the 

20 issue, there were injection wells at the site, 

21 some located near Building 14 and Building 8, 

22 this is in the early 1940s, and some located 
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46 1 near the ceramics buildings, Buildings 30 and 

2 31.

3 And from my reading of some 

4 memorandum about those injection wells, and 

5 how they were overflowing, and becoming 

6 clogged, and how the effluent overflow needed 

7 to be diverted from the injection wells near 

8 the ceramics buildings to the injection wells 

9 near Building 14 and Building 8.

10 So my question was, how did they 

11 get that effluent overflow, how did they diver 

12 it to the injection wells from one end of the 

13 site to the other? That was the question.

14 DR. NETON: Right.

15 MS. BONSIGNORE: So when we were 

16 talking about whether that section of the 

17 tunnel running between Buildings 30 and 31 

18 existed prior to 1957, that's why it's 

19 relevant, because NIOSH now, the Work Group is 

20 saying that that section of the tunnel was 

21 constructed in 1957.

22 I am saying, and the workers are 
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47 1 saying, that there is a possibility that that 

2 section of the tunnel existed, that it was 

3 actually there in the 1940s, and that's how

4 the effluent overflow was diverted from the 

5 ceramics injection wells to the injection 

6 wells that were located Building 14 and 

7 Building 8.

8 DR. NETON: Okay. This is Jim. I 

9 can talk a little bit about that. Well, the 

10 '57 tunnels were the short little pieces 

11 between Building 30 and 31, but there was also 

12 that 1961 tunnel which actually went the 

13 length of the site over towards Building 8.

14 That one, at least by your last 

15 email, seemed to indicate that you agreed that 

16 it could have been built in 1961. I'm not 

17 sure where your position is now.

18 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes, that's 

19 correct. The issue I have is the section of 

20 the tunnel between Buildings 30 and 31.

21 DR. NETON: Well, those are 

22 nowhere near -- the one that would have to be 
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48 1 in place would be the 1961 tunnel because that 

2 is the one that connected Building 30 and 31 

3 over to Building 8. I mean, if that tunnel is 

4 not there, there's no flow.

5 It would have either gone through 

6 trestles or additional piping. There's some 

7 memoranda that we've run across that 

8 specifically stated that no process effluent 

9 ever ran through the tunnels. It was all 

10 support, you know, of electrical cables, water 

11 supplies, that sort of thing.

12 So the 1961 tunnel, if it wasn't 

13 there, you couldn't have gotten through the 

14 tunnels from Building 31 over to Plant 8. 

15 It's not possible using the tunnels.

16 MS. BONSIGNORE: Can we get copies 

17 of the documents that you retrieved dealing 

18 with the effluents --

19 DR. NETON: Actually, the 

20 documents that I retrieved, interestingly, you 

21 sent an email on April 17th, which was, I 

22 believe, after I was at the archive, and you 
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49 1 sent the very documents that we retrieved; 

2 those memos.

3 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. So you 

4 haven't found anything that's new is what 

5 you're saying.

6 DR. NETON: I have nothing in 

7 addition to what -- I retrieved exactly what 

8 you sent us, which was interesting. I mean, 

9 that was kind of a coincidence, but it's the 

10 same documents that talk about injecting the 

11 effluent from Building 30, 31 over into 

12 injection wells near -- I forget, Building 8, 

13 I believe; the power plant.

14 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. Well, I 

15 mean, those documents, I got those from the 

16 New York State Archives. They were available 

17 online at one point.

18 DR. NETON: Well, then we got the 

19 same documents when we were there, so that's 

20 good, I guess.

21 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay.

22 DR. NETON: But the fact is that 
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50 1 the tunnels could not have carried the 

2 effluent if that 1961 tunnel was not there. 

3 It's just not possible. It wasn't there. The 

4 effluent injection program stopped, I believe, 

5 in the late-1940s; maybe 1949.

6 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. And that's 

7 the section of the tunnel that one of the 

8 workers says that he was in.

9 DR. NETON: That's the one that 

10 the first original affidavit said, and he's 

11 the only one that I know of that says he was 

12 in there prior to 1961, yes.

13 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay.

14 (Simultaneous speaking.)

15 MS. BONSIGNORE: And he reiterated 

16 that at the meeting in Buffalo.

17 DR. NETON: Right, but I think the 

18 drawing is pretty conclusive as well as the 

19 supplemental newspaper article that we found 

20 that indicated that a building permit was 

21 issued to install those tunnels in 1961. So 

22 that's additional evidence.
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51 1 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. But that 

2 one worker has not retracted that statement.

3 DR. NETON: No, he has not.

4 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay.

5 DR. NETON: Correct.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. 

7 Antoinette, did we cover everything?

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well, again, I'm 

9 trying to find out when our last meeting was. 

10 Yes, it was February 16th.

11 MEMBER BEACH: February.

12 MS. BONSIGNORE: So there's a 

13 transcript there. I can probably find the 

14 section of the transcript where SC&A was asked 

15 to take a look at this issue.

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes. The 

17 transcripts are posted. I know I've read 

18 them.

19 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: That didn't jump 

21 out at me as anything that we had not 

22 completed, but if you can find that. I don't 
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52 1 know if we want to wait during this call for 

2 you to find that or maybe we could just handle 

3 that offline?

4 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes. I mean, I 

5 can look for it and send it. I mean, the 

6 point being that I don't think this is an 

7 issue that has been looked at enough. We're 

8 getting one perspective on this issue from 

9 DCAS and I don't feel as though we're getting 

10 enough of a proper evaluation of this issue 

11 about the pipe tunnels and about what those 

12 memoranda say.

13 DR. OSTROW: This is Steve. We 

14 had, of course, read the memoranda that was 

15 sent and I didn't find them terribly relevant, 

16 you know? We've read before for years that 

17 everybody knew the effluent overflow that went 

18 from one part of the plant to the other, but 

19 these documents don't make any conclusion 

20 about whether they went through pipe tunnels 

21 or not, anything is just a surmise.

22 Looking at them again is not going 
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53 1 to change that opinion. You know, these 

2 documents don't say, "therefore, the effluent 

3 went through a pipe tunnel." Looking at them 

4 again is not going to add new information, I 

5 don't think.

6 This is like competing points of 

7 view here that, you know, if you look at the 

8 documents more you're going to come up with a 

9 different point of view.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay.

11 MEMBER BEACH: This is Josie, I 

12 tend to agree with that. I think we need to 

13 present what we have, what we've looked at, 

14 and, I mean, I know as a Work Group, we have 

15 tried and looked at all aspects, and it's 

16 really hard, if you look at the 1961 map, and 

17 the notes, and you look at the newspaper 

18 article from that date, it's very hard to say 

19 that those tunnels were built any earlier than 

20 1961.

21 And we have looked and we have 

22 tried to find evidence. And it's very 
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54 1 difficult because we do have one worker that 

2 says that he doesn't agree, so this isn't made 

3 lightly.

4 MEMBER LOCKEY: No. At the same 

5 time, we have looked, Jim Lockey, we have 

6 looked very hard and I've talked to thousands 

7 of workers in my profession, and when you go 

8 back 30 or 40 or 50 years, times get changed, 

9 times get muddled, not purposely, but that's 

10 just what happens.

11 So when you have objective 

12 documentation that's pretty persistent and you 

13 have other workers that are pretty persistent 

14 about what the thought process is, then the 

15 predominance of the evidence in this case was 

16 that those maps are correct.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes. And I think 

18 the one worker who, after our meeting, as 

19 Antoinette said, changed his mind. He really, 

20 the way I take it, he says that was so long 

21 ago he can't say for sure.

22 MEMBER LOCKEY: Right.
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55 1 CHAIR ROESSLER: I think that's 

2 what we have to go on. And I think at this 

3 point, what we've done before, and we've said 

4 before on other situations, and Linde, we have 

5 to go with the weight of the evidence. So I 

6 think the approach should be that we go with 

7 our report.

8 I don't feel obligated to lengthen 

9 the PowerPoint because I don't know that any 

10 lengthening is going to clarify it any better. 

11 You really get clarification when you look at 

12 the diagrams and you talk about what they 

13 mean. So my proposal would be that we present 

14 this at the Board meeting.

15 I'll talk to Dr. Melius about how 

16 he wants it done, but it seems that if 

17 Antoinette has an opportunity on Wednesday 

18 night to make a presentation, that that should 

19 be done, then on Thursday, we'll go with our 

20 presentation, half an hour seems like quite a 

21 bit of time.

22 We'll also have the opportunity 
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56 1 during break, if the Board Members want to 

2 look more, and I think the important thing is 

3 that, as the announcement for the meeting goes 

4 out, Ted, or somebody, is going to, along with 

5 Jim's help, send out these diagrams, ask the 

6 Board Members that if they have any questions 

7 to look at them prior to the meeting.

8 I think that's really where we're 

9 at and that's what we have to do.

10 MEMBER LOCKEY: Gen, do we vote 

11 now in the Working Group or not?

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well, I think it 

13 would be a good idea if the Working Group 

14 comes up with a -- that's typically what we 

15 do. The Working Group comes up with a motion, 

16 and in this case it's what do we present to 

17 the Board in June, and then we go forward.

18 MEMBER LOCKEY: Okay. So I'll 

19 move that the Working Group present our 

20 thought processes as reflected in your 

21 PowerPoint presentations. I'm supportive of 

22 the conclusions of that.
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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Linde Ceramics Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

reviewed and certified by the Chair of the Linde Ceramics Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to hange. 

57 1 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, this is Josie, 

2 I'm going to second that.

3 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. Then the 

4 only change I would make on the PowerPoint 

5 presentation is change the spelling of Work 

6 Group. I never know whether it's one word or 

7 two words. I'll try and make it two words. 

8 I'll fix that.

9 Otherwise, we'll plan to go with 

10 that and also go with what we just discussed 

11 here as to what the procedure will be. So are 

12 there any other comments? Have we missed 

13 anything?

14 MR. KATZ: That sounds good, Gen. 

15 And as I promised, I will get these materials 

16 out, PA-cleared, distributed to the various 

17 parties, and make a suggestion to the full 

18 Board about attending to these materials in 

19 advance of that session.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay.

21 MEMBER LOCKEY: Ted, one thing, 

22 what about Mike Gibson? Do you want to send 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Linde Ceramics Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

reviewed and certified by the Chair of the Linde Ceramics Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to hange. 

58 1 this to him and review his, give him the 

2 opportunity to vote or abstain?

3 MR. KATZ: Mike has received all 

4 of these materials, but, I mean, the reality 

5 with Mike is, he has little time for Board 

6 work because he's in a job that's requiring a 

7 lot of him, and so that's why he hasn't been 

8 attending these Linde meetings, which isn't 

9 the only one, but he's in a difficult 

10 situation right now with respect of his --

11 CHAIR ROESSLER: I understand 

12 that, but, you know, he does have a vote. So 

13 I think we should make --

14 MR. KATZ: Well, I mean, the Work 

15 Group has already decided by a majority 

16 decision, so he's a Member of the Board as 

17 well and he'll have an opportunity at the 

18 Board to say his thoughts and what have you, 

19 but he's not available beforehand and we don't 

20 do Work Group meetings in between Work Group 

21 meetings.

22 CHAIR ROESSLER: No. I meant to 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Linde Ceramics Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

reviewed and certified by the Chair of the Linde Ceramics Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to hange. 

59 1 vote as a Board Member.

2 MR. KATZ: Yes.

3 CHAIR ROESSLER: So I think the 

4 best we can do is provide everything to him 

5 and go from there.

6 MR. KATZ: Good. Sure enough.

7 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. Is there 

8 anything else that we need to take care of 

9 today? If not, then I think we can adjourn.

10 MEMBER LOCKEY: Thanks, everybody.

11 CHAIR ROESSLER: Thank you.

12 (Whereupon, the meeting in the 

13 above-entitled matter was concluded at 3:33 

14 p.m.)

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