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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION

AND WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON LINDE CERAMICS

+ + + + +

MONDAY, JANUARY 30, 2012

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened at 

9:00 a.m., in the Brussels Room of the 

Cincinnati Airport Marriott Hotel, 2395 

Progress Drive, Hebron, Kentucky, Genevieve S. 

Roessler, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT:

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Chair

JOSIE BEACH, Member

JAMES E. LOCKEY, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

ANTOINETTE BONSIGNORE*

CHRIS CRAWFORD, DCAS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A*

JAMES NETON, DCAS

STEVE OSTROW, SC&A*

MICHAEL RAFKY, HHS*

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU Team*

*Participating via telephone
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Page

Welcome and Roll-Call...................... 4 

Discussions of Tunnels Issues.............. 6 

Other TBD Issues.......................... 77

Status/Path Forward for TBD Revisions..... 81

Adjournment.............................. 102
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (9:08 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: So good morning 

4 everyone in the room and on the lines. This 

5 is the Advisory Board on Radiation Health, 

6 Linde Ceramics Work Group.

7 There is an agenda. It is posted 

8 on the NIOSH website and Gen, it is your 

9 agenda.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: Thank you 

11 everybody. 

12 The Work Group's responsibility 

13 and I think remaining one responsibility is to 

14 look at any open TBD issues. And I think our 

15 only and main question is to answer the 

16 question as to what years does NIOSH apply 

17 dose reconstruction for the utility tunnels. 

18 We will do that first and then we will open 

19 the meeting to see if there is anything else 

20 that needs to come up on the agenda.

21 We decided to meet in person today 

22 because Chris Crawford from DCAS has some 
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1 large maps for us to look at to help us answer 

2 the question as to what years were the 

3 tunnels, the utility tunnels were in existence 

4 and what years might they not have been in 

5 existence. This might make it a little 

6 difficult for people on the phone because we 

7 are going to have to get around the table and 

8 as Chris discusses this, look at the maps he 

9 has.

10 We will try and make it so that 

11 people can understand what we are doing. And 

12 for those of you listening, especially 

13 Antoinette and SC&A, please interrupt and ask 

14 us as we go through this.

15 DR. NETON: Can I just say that 

16 these are not new maps. These are maps that 

17 have been previously distributed. They have 

18 just been blown up professionally to be a 

19 little clearer as to what we are looking at. 

20 But I think when we go over them, maybe we 

21 should point out which maps they are. And I 

22 think we are probably going to have to specify 
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1 Site Research Database numbers associated with 

2 them.

3 So they are not new but I think 

4 when they blew them up, they are much clearer, 

5 easier to read than previously.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: The ones we have 

7 previously, the ones I got, you really 

8 couldn't tell much from them.

9 DR. NETON: Yes, these are three 

10 by two and a half foot maps that are much 

11 clearer to read, easier to read.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: So we will turn 

13 it over to Chris.

14 MR. CRAWFORD: Thank you, Gen. 

15 What I would like to do is work back through 

16 time, starting with the more recent map and 

17 working backwards, partly because the more 

18 recent maps are more detailed and I think they 

19 are easier to see what was happening.

20 For the people who are listening, 

21 the first map we will be looking at is called 

22 location plan. It is by Linde Company. It is 
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1 dated February 1, 1961 and the plan number is 

2 A-437867. I don't have the SRDB number 

3 written down but when I put them on the 

4 Board's site, I believe I identified them by 

5 plan number, rather than SRDB number.

6 So you should have all have seen 

7 this. And then if anybody would like to come 

8 over here and take a look at the text, it will 

9 probably be the first time you will be able to 

10 read it.

11 To trace the history of these 

12 drawings again, we, Stu Hinnefeld actually 

13 asked Praxair, the modern owner of the Linde 

14 site to send us construction drawings for the 

15 tunnels. This was done I believe in mid-2010 

16 and we received those tunnels by early fall --

17 those drawings by early fall of 2010. These 

18 are those drawings.

19 The first drawing dated '61 is 

20 stamped "issued for bids do not use for 

21 construction." So the purpose is clear what 

22 that was for.
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1 There are a bunch of general notes 

2 I have taken the trouble to emphasize in 

3 yellow highlighting some of the more 

4 interesting parts. And we see that there are 

5 also notations on the drawing, and I will go 

6 through a few of these indicating what was 

7 done.

8 You will see here to orient us a 

9 little bit, this is Building 30. North is 

10 actually off this way, to my left. Building 

11 31 over here. There is no Building 70 yet, 

12 but you will see a notation here "proposed 

13 building" that became Building 70 later.

14 This is Building 8, also called 

15 the Powerhouse. Building 14 would have been 

16 around here. And then there were a bunch of 

17 buildings down here, Building 10 and so forth. 

18 I think most of you have seen overall plans 

19 of the site by now and are fairly comfortable 

20 with it, I hope.

21 Some of the things I wanted to 

22 point out is you will see that this says new 
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1 junction box number six; new junction box 

2 number seven; new 97 inch tunnel; and new 

3 junction box number eight, I believe, as an 

4 indication of what this drawing is about.

5 CHAIR ROESSLER: That means that 

6 these are to be constructed, not already 

7 there. Is that the way you interpret it?

8 MR. CRAWFORD: That is my 

9 interpretation. The tunnel being constructed, 

10 and they are the only tunnel shown here 

11 really, is the north/south tunnel going from 

12 between Buildings 30 and 31 south to the 

13 Powerhouse. Also there is an extension from 

14 that tunnel just to the south of Building 30, 

15 which goes off to the west to where Building 

16 70 will be and to where there is Building 

17 number 24 and you will see proposed entrances 

18 to those buildings.

19 There is a bunch of information in 

20 here.

21 CHAIR ROESSLER: That is actually 

22 2A.
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1 MR. CRAWFORD: That's 2A. Thank 

2 you.

3 There is also little notations 

4 like relocated fire hydrant and so forth. 

5 Again, giving us some clues that I believe 

6 this is new construction.

7 DR. NETON: Well Chris, isn't the 

8 title there something up for bid. I mean, the 

9 title --

10 MR. CRAWFORD: The issued for bids 

11 notation I think is another bid.

12 DR. NETON: Right.

13 MR. CRAWFORD: And you will see 

14 references there, various things. There is a 

15 coal storage area, for instance, that says the 

16 contractor must not remove the coal storage 

17 area until the tunnel is completed. There is 

18 also a reference to trestles. Now what the 

19 trestles were, they were on the map. They 

20 carried utilities above ground, overhead 

21 between buildings. So it was probably -- We 

22 know they went between 30 and 31. It is 
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1 probable that they went over to Building 8 as 

2 well that way.

3 But anyway, I believe that this 

4 drawing establishes that there was no 

5 connection between the Powerhouse Building 8 

6 and the ceramics plant area, Buildings 30 and 

7 31, primarily.

8 DR. NETON: I think key on there 

9 it says proposed 97-inch tunnel.

10 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, new.

11 DR. NETON: New 97-inch tunnel.

12 MR. CRAWFORD: New 80-inch tunnel 

13 here. These tunnels were much bigger by the 

14 way than the older tunnel built in we believe 

15 '56. We'll see those in a minute. 

16 By the way, here is just another 

17 notation. Existing junction box number two, 

18 which is basically right next to this junction 

19 box number six, existing 80-inch tunnel here.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: So you are saying 

21 from here to there and then this is the new 

22 section.
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1 MR. CRAWFORD: Right. This 

2 section existed in 1961.

3 MEMBER LOCKEY: It says over here 

4 for this -- this is six. Right?

5 MR. CRAWFORD: That's right.

6 MEMBER LOCKEY: So it says when 

7 the existing roadway west of Building 31 is 

8 interrupted by the construction of junction 

9 box number six. So we are actually talking 

10 about construction of junction box number six 

11 in the '68 tunnel to Building 31. And access 

12 won't be necessary starting -- okay.

13 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay and it says 

14 new concrete pads and fence, relocated 

15 transformers.

16 MEMBER LOCKEY: And then they also 

17 talk about being careful about the railroad 

18 lines.

19 CHAIR ROESSLER: And that is these 

20 things.

21 MS. BONSIGNORE: This is 

22 Antoinette. May I ask a question? Because 
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1 this is very difficult for me to follow.

2 MR. KATZ: Yes, absolutely.

3 MS. BONSIGNORE: Are you 

4 suggesting that the issue about the overflow 

5 of effluent that went between the wells that 

6 were located near Building 8 and Building 14 

7 and the wells that were located near the 

8 ceramics building, that that overflow vessel 

9 went above ground? Is that what you are 

10 suggesting?

11 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, for two 

12 reasons. One, there was no tunnel there. 

13 Also we have documentary --

14 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, we haven't 

15 established that. So could we maybe not --

16 MR. CRAWFORD: But that would be a 

17 definitive answer, however. If this is the 

18 tunnel construction drawing, that indicates 

19 there was no tunnel there in 1946, which is 

20 the last time any effluent was shipped 

21 anyplace.

22 However, the other bit --
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1 MS. BONSIGNORE: You are assuming 

2 that the word means new, a totally new tunnel 

3 was constructed and not an extension of or an 

4 existing tunnel is being constructed.

5 MR. CRAWFORD: I think that is 

6 highly speculative. Nobody has ever mentioned 

7 a preexisting tunnel.

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: But I think it is 

9 speculative to assume that --

10 MR. CRAWFORD: You have drawn a 

11 conclusion --

12 MS. BONSIGNORE: -- your 

13 interpretation is correct, when all 

14 indications would indicate that when those 

15 buildings were constructed, in order for them 

16 to have any functioning services within them, 

17 they would have had to have had tunnels 

18 underneath them. And the policy at Linde from 

19 the workers who were actually there, is that 

20 when buildings were constructed, tunnels were 

21 extended to service those buildings. Existing 

22 tunnels were then extended to service 
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1 buildings.

2 That is what happened at that 

3 facility.

4 MR. CRAWFORD: The question is 

5 when did it happen. And there are many ways 

6 to get electrical and other utilities between 

7 buildings.

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes. Well, okay. 

9 So just for these buildings you are 

10 suggesting that there was some other way that 

11 they provided utilities and other services but 

12 for all other buildings, they used underground 

13 tunnels.

14 DR. NETON: Well, this is Jim 

15 Neton. On the current map that we are looking 

16 at, which you can't see unfortunately, they 

17 have trestles. These trestles are like above 

18 ground stanchions that would carry -- I've 

19 seen this at many other plants -- carry the 

20 utilities above ground to the facilities. And 

21 on this particular drawing, Chris, isn't there 

22 a notation that says existing trestles or 
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1 something like that?

2 MR. CRAWFORD: I think there may 

3 be a -- Right here there is a section on 

4 trestles. Perhaps -- would you like to read 

5 that to her?

6 MEMBER BEACH: So trestles, number 

7 five on this map, which I think you have a 

8 copy of this. You just have to blow it up. 

9 It says the portion of the trestle from 

10 Buildings 30 and 31 South to the dogleg 

11 between Tracks 3 and 1 shall maintained until 

12 the tunnel is in service at junction box 

13 number 6 east of Building 31, west to Building 

14 30, and I can't make out that word, the 

15 trestle crosses the tunnel running west from 

16 the junction box 7, the lines on the trestle 

17 shall have to be supported during the 

18 construction period.

19 It also shows utility trenches 

20 between the buildings. Like right here.

21 CHAIR ROESSLER: It was probably 

22 the trestles carrying the lines and utility 
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1 things previous to this that they referring to 

2 there.

3 DR. NETON: It seems to me to be 

4 the case.

5 CHAIR ROESSLER: Especially if 

6 they say they must maintain them. This would 

7 have to be supported during the construction 

8 period. When the tunnel is completed and the 

9 lines installed therein, this portion of the 

10 trestle can be removed. That to me says that 

11 the whatever is going to be put in the new 

12 tunnels was in place in the trestles.

13 MS. BONSIGNORE: This is 

14 Antoinette. Is there some way that what you 

15 are looking at can be sent to me via email?

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: Is that on 

17 something on the website?

18 MEMBER BEACH: Antoinette, it's 

19 one of the maps that you sent out.

20 MS. BONSIGNORE: It is?

21 MEMBER BEACH: I believe it is.

22 DR. NETON: Yes, these are not new 
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1 maps. These are just large-scale blowups of 

2 the maps that we have had in the past.

3 MEMBER BEACH: This is the map 

4 from February 1, 1961. And if you look 

5 through all your pages of maps, I'm sure you 

6 have it.

7 MR. KATZ: Given how small the 

8 print is on this map, I would imagine if you 

9 didn't blow it up this much, you wouldn't be 

10 able to read this text.

11 MEMBER BEACH: Well you can blow 

12 them up on your computer. I did.

13 MR. KATZ: Oh, yes?

14 MEMBER BEACH: You just have to 

15 look at it in sections.

16 DR. NETON: Yes, it's hard to sort 

17 of scan the whole thing but here it is all --

18 MEMBER LOCKEY: Here is where they 

19 put in new buildings. They just put new 

20 tunnels through. That's what they did, yes.

21 CHAIR ROESSLER: And replaced the 

22 trestles.
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1 MEMBER LOCKEY: Replaced the 

2 trestles, yes.

3 CHAIR ROESSLER: This helps me to 

4 be able to see the writing and everything on 

5 one page because the information we had was 

6 really difficult.

7 DR. NETON: Chris, we only have 

8 one copy of these. Correct?

9 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. You know, we 

10 don't own the facility that make these 

11 blowups. So it was a hassle getting them.

12 However, once you have seen the 

13 blowup, then if you go back and look at the 

14 PDF, you can blow up the section that you are 

15 in.

16 Otherwise, you lose all 

17 orientation if you blow it up on the screen.

18 CHAIR ROESSLER: To me what it 

19 says is in this time period they are trying to 

20 replace the trestles for use for the utility 

21 cables, whatever else they have there with an 

22 underground tunnel.
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1 DR. NETON: Now one thing that we 

2 do have to support this, and Chris is probably 

3 going to talk about this, is the maintenance 

4 supervisor who was interviewed, his statement 

5 is very consistent with this drawing.

6 I don't know, maybe you can read 

7 that now, Chris, if it is appropriate. I 

8 don't know.

9 MS. BONSIGNORE: Is this one of 

10 the interviews that was conducted by ORAU over 

11 the phone in March of 2010.

12 DR. NETON: Yes.

13 MS. BONSIGNORE: Were those 

14 statements ever verified?

15 MR. CRAWFORD: Two things about 

16 that. First, that is not a required part of 

17 the procedure. We called people to gather 

18 information and there were several witnesses 

19 to the call, by the way. So and in one of the 

20 cases you located the witness, you may recall, 

21 before we called back. But what I want to 

22 emphasize is that isn't part of the necessary 
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1 procedure.

2 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well I had to do 

3 that because you were already using the 

4 documents in your White Papers.

5 DR. NETON: Well I will say I 

6 don't know that this was actually like SC&A7 style sent back to the person for concurrence. 

8 But the statement is pretty clear, in my 

9 opinion, as to what it says.

10 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, well we 

11 have a contradictory statement from another 

12 worker. And considering that ORAU made some 

13 critical errors with one of those workers in 

14 their interviews, don't you think it would be 

15 in the best interest of the Linde workers to 

16 actually verify those statements?

17 I mean, I don't think that is too 

18 much to ask.

19 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, the man who 

20 conducted, the primary person who conducted 

21 that interview has died since, I should point 

22 out.
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1 DR. NETON: Right. But I think 

2 the maps themselves speak for, they do speak 

3 for themselves.

4 MS. BONSIGNORE: I'm sorry. The 

5 person who was interviewed has died?

6 DR. NETON: No, the interviewer.

7 MR. CRAWFORD: The interviewer.

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, but 

9 wouldn't there be some way to contact the 

10 person who was interviewed to verify those 

11 statements?

12 MR. CRAWFORD: It's possible but I 

13 will take my direction from the Working Group 

14 on that.

15 In the meantime, from what 

16 statement we do have from this individual, it 

17 is not just any worker. This is the 

18 superintendent of maintenance at the Linde 

19 facility.

20 DR. NETON: At that time.

21 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes, I understand 

22 that. I am not suggesting that that person 
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1 wouldn't know what they were talking about. 

2 What I am suggesting is perhaps his statements 

3 may have been misinterpreted.

4 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, let me read 

5 the statement and you can tell me --

6 MS. BONSIGNORE: I have read the 

7 statement.

8 MR. CRAWFORD: Well I know you 

9 have read the statement. I would like to read 

10 the statement.

11 CHAIR ROESSLER: Antoinette, I 

12 think we need to have him read it for our 

13 group here today.

14 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay.

15 MR. CRAWFORD: Because of Privacy 

16 Acts and other problems, I'm not going to name 

17 the worker. I'm going to call him Worker 6.

18 According to the record of this 

19 interview, this worker worked from '56 to '92 

20 at the plant. He stated he worked in "all of 

21 the 65 to 70 buildings on the Linde site." He 

22 also said he "lived in the tunnels."
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1 He said further, and this is a 

2 slightly longer statement, "There were three 

3 primary tunnels. The east/west tunnel went 

4 from the Powerhouse." And then there is an 

5 ellipsis here, "across the whole length of the 

6 site to the office area in Buildings 1, 2, and 

7 10, and to the operations in Buildings 2A and 

8 2B. This tunnel was built prior to 1953."

9 And then further in his statement, 

10 "The north/south tunnel also went the whole 

11 length of the site to Buildings 30, 31, and 57 

12 on the northeast border of the site. There 

13 was a branch off this tunnel that went west to 

14 Building 70. There were other junctions off 

15 this tunnel and one went to the north end of 

16 the property to Building 31. These tunnels 

17 were built after 1956."

18 What is of interest here is we 

19 have the drawings that just happen to 

20 coincide. And we got the drawings much later, 

21 I point out. This interview was done in March 

22 of 2010. We didn't get these drawings until 
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1 August or September of 2010. And his dates 

2 match the drawing dates quite nicely.

3 CHAIR ROESSLER: Read it one more 

4 time. To me, I'm not quite clicking with the 

5 dates.

6 MR. CRAWFORD: This time I will 

7 read it less formally and I will say which 

8 part of the tunnels he is actually referring 

9 to.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes. Yes.

11 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay, he said there 

12 were three primary tunnels. The east/west 

13 tunnel went from the Powerhouse, that is here, 

14 and it went east/west, which means this way. 

15 And basically it went the whole length of the 

16 site to the office area in Buildings 1, 2, and 

17 10, which are off this drawing this way; 

18 Building 14 being about here and 10 is farther 

19 that way.

20 DR. NETON: Those were the 

21 original tunnels that we believe were there in 

22 1937. We have the original 1937 drawing of 
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1 the tunnels and that is what is on that map.

2 MEMBER LOCKEY: That's on that map 

3 there?

4 DR. NETON: Yes, the 1937 drawing 

5 shows those tunnels.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Let's stop for a 

7 minute.

8 MR. CRAWFORD: Now we're switching 

9 and looking at the 1936 drawing for the 

10 original tunnel and we see on the drawing it 

11 went --

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: Is this oriented 

13 the same way?

14 MR. CRAWFORD: No. We would have 

15 to turn this --

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: I think we are 90 

17 degrees off, aren't we?

18 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, we are.

19 So here is Building 8. Now the 

20 ceramics plant is up here near the water 

21 pitchers. Sorry, Antoinette, but to give us 

22 an idea. This is the tunnel they are talking 
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1 about, Building 14, the Tonawanda Laboratory. 

2 They called it the Proving Laboratory at that 

3 time.

4 And then a branch goes down here 

5 to the Engineering Laboratory, which is 

6 Building 6. Here is Building 2, which it also 

7 connects to.

8 MEMBER LOCKEY: So 30 is over 

9 here?

10 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, up in this 

11 area. The scale is different, too.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: This would be 

13 sort of way down here. Wouldn't it?

14 MR. CRAWFORD: That's correct.

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes.

16 DR. NETON: See, that tunnel is 

17 not even shown on that '61 map because it is 

18 already existing. This is the new 

19 construction there.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: That is another 

21 reason to support this as being new 

22 construction.
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1 DR. NETON: Right, because that 

2 '37 tunnel is not even on that 1961 map. It 

3 is saying that here is what we want you to 

4 build in 1961.

5 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay, that helps 

6 on that.

7 Okay now, I am oriented Chris. If 

8 everybody else is, then continue reading it. I 

9 think we need to follow through with what --

10 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. Then the 

11 second part of the description is the 

12 north/south tunnel, this one, there is only 

13 one north/south tunnel, went the whole length 

14 of the site to Buildings 30, 31, and 57 on the 

15 northeast border of the site.

16 There was a branch off this tunnel 

17 that went west to Building 70. That would be 

18 this branch. Building 70 wasn't here yet. 

19 There were other junctions off this tunnel and 

20 one went to the north end of the property to 

21 Building 31. These tunnels were built after 

22 1956.
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1 MR. CRAWFORD: And we have 

2 drawings showing the proposal for those 

3 tunnels that were built in '56 and '57.

4 DR. NETON: So there were three 

5 construction periods of these tunnels; '36 or 

6 '37, '57, and '61.

7 MR. CRAWFORD: Now here again we 

8 have to reorient ourselves. You would have to 

9 turn this 90 degrees that way.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: So here is 

11 [Building]31.

12 MR. CRAWFORD: You will notice 

13 that this stops at junction box number 2.

14 CHAIR ROESSLER: So here is 31 and 

15 here is 30.

16 MR. CRAWFORD: The scale [is] 

17 different. It is confusing.

18 CHAIR ROESSLER: So okay, now do 

19 that - 

20 MR. CRAWFORD: This is junction 

21 box number two shown on this line as existing 

22 junction box number two there.
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1 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. Okay.

2 MR. CRAWFORD: You will see that 

3 it stops, this tunnel drawing stops at 

4 junction box number two.

5 MEMBER LOCKEY: Which box is this?

6 MR. CRAWFORD: It says right where 

7 your thumb is, box number one.

8 MR. KATZ: Chris, what is the date 

9 of this map that you are looking at now?

10 MR. CRAWFORD: This map is dated 

11 March 20, 1957.

12 DR. NETON: That is also 

13 construction bid drawing.

14 MEMBER LOCKEY: Oh, I see. This 

15 is two, right?

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: No, two is right 

17 here.

18 MR. CRAWFORD: It is a small box. 

19 It is hard to even see on this one. That is 

20 six. So two and six were right next to each 

21 other.

22 MR. CRAWFORD: You see existing 
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1 trestle? They misspelled it. 

2 There is an annotation on this 

3 drawing I also wanted to point out here. It 

4 says revised, redrawn, and releaved for 

5 construction March 20, 1957. 

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: So there is a lot 

7 of -- to me there is a lot of evidence that 

8 these tunnels that are in here all called new 

9 construction were not there in '57.

10 The fact that they are called new 

11 here, that they are replacing trestles and 

12 that they are not on this one, means they 

13 weren't -- at this time. That is one of the 

14 things we have to answer, I think. So what do 

15 you think, Josie?

16 MEMBER BEACH: It's hard to not to 

17 think this is correct. I mean, Antoinette, I 

18 wish you were here to be able to see these 

19 drawings.

20 MS. BONSIGNORE: I wish I was, 

21 too. I wish I had been told that we were 

22 going to be -- because I am still trying to 
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1 find what tunnels you are taking a look at in 

2 my own files. And you know, --

3 MR. CRAWFORD: Let me give you the 

4 drawing number for this one. It is A-360164. 

5 That is the 1957 drawing number we are 

6 looking at.

7 MEMBER LOCKEY: They have storm 

8 sewers and things like that.

9 MS. BONSIGNORE: Are these from 

10 Shaw Environmental?

11 MR. CRAWFORD: No, they are from 

12 Praxair directly.

13 MS. BONSIGNORE: All I have are 

14 the ones from Shaw and I have the ones that 

15 the workers that were interviewed by SC&A and 

16 Niagara Falls provided.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: What report were 

18 they included in? Is that on the website?

19 MR. CRAWFORD: It's on the Board's 

20 website.

21 DR. NETON: Let me ask a question. 

22 SC&A, you are on the line. You guys had 
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1 blown these drawings up as well, have you not 

2 at one point?

3 DR. MAURO: Yes, this is John. 

4 Yes, we did but we are in the uncomfortable 

5 position that person that had them is Nicole 

6 Briggs and she is out ill. So unfortunately, 

7 we are sitting here. Unless Steve was able to 

8 get hold of them, we do not have them. So we 

9 are listening in and I guess to what is being 

10 said but unfortunately, like Ms. Bonsignore, 

11 we are not looking at the drawings as we 

12 speak.

13 DR. OSTROW: This is Steve. Let 

14 me just make a comment. We have looked at 

15 these drawings in great detail and, as John 

16 mentioned, we blew them up to full size, the 

17 G-size drawing and we reported on our findings 

18 in the report that we wrote on October 11, 

19 2011. And we concluded at the time that we 

20 agree with NIOSH's assessment about where the 

21 tunnels were constructed, based on looking at 

22 the drawings. However, we also noted that one 
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1 of the workers, I can't mention names but 

2 probably people know who it is, in an 

3 affidavit and in interviews this worker 

4 started working I think in 1953 and indicated 

5 that the tunnels were in existence at the time 

6 -- all the tunnels were in existence at the 

7 time that he started working. I think 

8 Antoinette can confirm that also.

9 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right. Steve, 

10 you are speaking about the Niagara Falls 

11 interview.

12 DR. OSTROW: Yes, but also 

13 subsequent to --

14 MS. BONSIGNORE: And subsequent --

15 yes. That is correct. That is correct.

16 DR. OSTROW: So we have to, I 

17 think the Work Group has to weigh the drawings 

18 you are looking at against one of the worker's 

19 statements that he made more than once that 

20 the tunnels existed, all the tunnels existed 

21 at the time of his employment in 1953. That 

22 seems to be the principle counter evidence 
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1 that we have.

2 DR. NETON: But Steve, it is my 

3 recollection, I don't think the statement 

4 actually said all of the tunnels were in 

5 existence.

6 MEMBER BEACH: I actually have the 

7 statement here and I was going to ask if we 

8 could maybe try to trace out what the 

9 statement is.

10 MR. CRAWFORD: And I have also the 

11 same thing. I have this annotated.

12 MEMBER BEACH: Perfect.

13 MS. BONSIGNORE: Which statement 

14 do you have?

15 MEMBER BEACH: I have the one that 

16 SC&A Steve Ostrow sent out on October --

17 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes, as long as 

18 it is not the March 2010 ORAU interview.

19 MEMBER BEACH: No, it's October 

20 17th and it was the last that we got prior to 

21 our last Work Group from SC&A disputing the 

22 maps.
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1 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. Right.

2 MR. CRAWFORD: I wanted to mention 

3 a couple of things on this that I think we do 

4 value as a witness statement. And Antoinette 

5 may disagree but let me just point out what I 

6 think is the evidence.

7 Quoting from the October 17th 

8 statement, that SC&A took, "My first 

9 experience in these tunnels was in the mid10 '50s as a maintenance worker. I worked 

11 routinely in these tunnels and they would have 

12 had to be in existence when Building 30 was 

13 built, based on the fact that all the utility 

14 tunnels were already in use."

15 That is somewhat speculative in 

16 nature. Would have had to be is not the same 

17 as saying I walked through those tunnels by 

18 Building 30.

19 One other thing. Another part of 

20 that same statement. "In fact, the tunnel had 

21 to be there in order for utilities such as 

22 electricity, steam, condensate water air 
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1 pressure, telephone lines to supply these 

2 utilities to the ceramics plant Building 30." 

3 That is not a witness statement. That is a 

4 speculation.

5 In a statement dated long ago, 

6 November 10, 2006, this same worker, and I 

7 believe this may have been submitted by you, 

8 Antoinette, but it is a very early statement 

9 saying that he was assigned to the silicone 

10 department and spent his time in Building 14 

11 through 1960. "I stayed with lab maintenance 

12 through the late '50s and '60s as a 

13 maintenance mechanic." Then later in 1961 and 

14 '65, he visited Building 30 often as part of 

15 his new duties as a shipping and receiving 

16 person at Building 14. During 1965 and 1966, 

17 he worked in Building 31 as a chemical 

18 operator.

19 So the worker's history is he was 

20 stationed at the Tonawanda laboratory, not in 

21 the ceramics plant. He didn't go to the 

22 ceramics plant as part of his duties until 
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1 1961.

2 There is other testimony but it 

3 has to do more with how much time he spent in 

4 the tunnel, which is not so germane to this 

5 discussion.

6 DR. NETON: So it is true there 

7 were tunnels there starting in 1937. And they 

8 went from the power plant down easterly to 

9 those other buildings, where this worker 

10 certainly would have walked through those 

11 tunnels. There is no doubt in my mind.

12 MR. CRAWFORD: This brings up a 

13 secondary issue but one thing you might notice 

14 while we have the drawings here to look at 

15 them, the old tunnel from Powerhouse down to 

16 building 10 and 2 and all of that was entered 

17 through the basement of the buildings via a 

18 stairway. The new tunnels, that was not true. 

19 The new tunnels, you entered them through the 

20 junction boxes with a vertical steel ladder.

21 Also, the tunnels that we contend 

22 were built in '56, '57 up around the ceramics 
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1 plant area are much smaller. You will see 

2 this 57-inch tunnels. And since the average 

3 person like myself is 69 inches tall, that 

4 means you don't walk through those tunnels. 

5 There is lights hanging from the 

6 ceiling. There had to be a grating on the 

7 bottom for a drain. Probably there was four 

8 feet or so of clearance. So you crouched 

9 walking through those tunnels.

10 Also, even the main tunnel here, I 

11 can't quite read that, I believe that is an 

12 80-inch tunnel. But the tunnel connecting 

13 and, by the way, there was no connection shown 

14 here to these buildings yet, eventually we 

15 have a connection that went from Junction box 

16 6 into the Building 30. That was only 68 

17 inches high. So again, you couldn't walk 

18 through the tunnel. And I have indications in 

19 documents that in fact the penetrations into 

20 Building 30 weren't passable. That is, a 

21 person couldn't walk out of Building 30 into 

22 the tunnel. Building 30, by the way, and that 
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1 is true of the ceramics plant in general, has 

2 no basement. It is a pad, a concrete pad. We 

3 have pictures of it after demolition, by the 

4 way, which show you that quite clearly.

5 That only speaks to the difficulty 

6 of moving around the plant. A maintenance 

7 worker with a helmet and boots could move 

8 through these tunnels regularly. They did. 

9 They inspected them every month, in fact. But 

10 to think that the average worker in the plant 

11 moved around through the tunnels in the winter 

12 because it is easier than snow, that is 

13 misleading.

14 DR. NETON: Well certainly the old 

15 tunnel, yes.

16 MR. CRAWFORD: The old tunnel, 

17 yes.

18 MS. BONSIGNORE: You know, I am 

19 going to have to take great exception with 

20 that statement. You know, many of these 

21 workers have repeatedly made that statement 

22 that people not only used them to travel to 
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1 the same buildings but actually one of the 

2 workers mentioned that some of the workers 

3 would actually sleep down in the tunnels 

4 because when they were trying to avoid 

5 somebody from -- one of their immediate 

6 supervisors, they would actually eat down 

7 there.

8 I mean, you are picking and 

9 choosing statements and you are not looking at 

10 the whole of it. And I really must say I 

11 really don't think your interpretation of 

12 these documents is in any way claimant13 favorable. I think you have a specific 

14 narrative that you are trying to advance here 

15 and you are simply not open to listening to 

16 anything else.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well I think what 

18 we are looking at is weight of evidence here, 

19 Antoinette, and I can see on this drawing from 

20 1961 they show that the new proposed tunnels, 

21 they are different heights. There are some 

22 that are 97 inches. I can picture people 
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1 probably doing what you are describing there, 

2 using those tunnels to walk in and avoid being 

3 out in the snow and so on.

4 There is another one here, 80 

5 inches, perhaps there. But the tunnel between 

6 Building 30 and Building 31 even, and that is 

7 a proposed new tunnel, is 68 inches. That 

8 wouldn't seem quite as amenable to doing what 

9 you are saying. But certainly back on some of 

10 these older drawings -- and what is the height 

11 of this tunnel? Ones that were here on this 

12 drawing?

13 MEMBER LOCKEY: This is 57 here.

14 CHAIR ROESSLER: It seems less 

15 likely -- I mean, I can't imagine somebody 

16 wanting to crawl in a tunnel.

17 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well, Gen, I will 

18 tell you what these workers have told me. 

19 That when the tunnels were more restricted, 

20 people crouched and walked through them. That 

21 is what they did. Now you can either believe 

22 them or you cannot believe them.
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1 CHAIR ROESSLER: I don't remember 

2 reading the testimony saying that they 

3 crouched to walk through them.

4 MS. BONSIGNORE: When I spoke with 

5 the workers about Mr. Crawford's suggestion in 

6 one of his emails or White Papers that the 

7 tunnels were too restrictive for people to 

8 walk in them upright, the workers that have 

9 been interviewed by SC&A actually kind of 

10 laughed and said yes, sometimes we had to 

11 crouch.

12 I didn't provide an additional 

13 affidavit explaining crouching.

14 MR. CRAWFORD: Let me mention I 

15 have some other workers' statements that I 

16 would like to quote from. Again, I can't 

17 identify the people. I do have the SRDB 

18 numbers, which I could send to the Board if 

19 they are interested.

20 I will call this one Worker 7. He 

21 said worked in all the buildings at the plant 

22 and in the utility tunnels all over the plant 
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1 site. He worked in the tunnels one to three 

2 days per month. That is an occupancy factor, 

3 not anything else.

4 Worker 8, who was there from '55 

5 to '89, he said there were tunnels all over 

6 the site but he had never been in any of them.

7 Worker 9, '53 to '71, he knew 

8 nothing about the tunnels and had never even 

9 heard about them.

10 Worker 3, I started working at 

11 Linde in '53 and I used these tunnels to 

12 travel from the Powerhouse, Building 8 to get 

13 to the lab buildings and the parking lot.

14 That is true. That is the 36 

15 tunnel he is describing.

16 The interview with Worker 2, I 

17 started work at Linde in '51. My first 

18 experience was using the tunnel entrance in 

19 Building 14. The tunnel supplied utilities to 

20 the lab, Buildings 8, 9, and 10, and was used 

21 to get to the cafeteria and main office.

22 DR. NETON: So those are all true. 
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1 I mean, we believe that workers did use the 

2 tunnels routinely. But the question is which 

3 tunnels were there at what time period. That 

4 is the question at hand. 

5 CHAIR ROESSLER: And that is 

6 basically what we are trying to determine from 

7 the diagrams.

8 DR. NETON: Exactly.

9 CHAIR ROESSLER: So I think we are 

10 back to that.

11 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, so I'm 

12 sorry to interrupt. Was that Mr. Neton?

13 DR. NETON: Yes, this is Jim 

14 Neton.

15 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. I'm a 

16 little confused because Mr. Crawford seems to 

17 be suggesting that people didn't use the 

18 tunnels on a regular basis and you are saying 

19 --

20 DR. NETON: No, well, I think what 

21 he was saying is maybe the newly constructed 

22 tunnels after 1957 would have been difficult 
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1 to use on a regular basis. But I think we all 

2 agree that the tunnels that were there 

3 starting in 1937 would have been used on a 

4 regular basis. We have no disagreement with 

5 that at all. And that is very consistent with 

6 what the workers are saying.

7 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. Well 

8 again, I would submit the crouching exception 

9 to that statement.

10 DR. NETON: Yes, I don't know if 

11 they had to crouch in the 1937 tunnels. They 

12 were quite large, I think. I don't know if 

13 there is a problem with that.

14 I think what he is saying is the 

15 tunnels that were constructed after 1957, 

16 first of all to get to them, you had to go 

17 through a steel ladder from a junction box 

18 that was outside. So you had to walk down 

19 this steel ladder and then move about then. 

20 It wasn't as easy as the ones that were in 

21 existence in 1937 that were actually 

22 accessible from the basements of the 
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1 buildings. That is not the case with these 

2 new tunnels that were constructed.

3 So we have a couple of different 

4 things going on here but no doubt workers used 

5 tunnels. No doubt the entire time period. It 

6 is just a matter of when they were there. And 

7 that brings -- and the only issue that hangs 

8 in the balance on this decision then is what 

9 type of exposure to reconstruct for workers 

10 who used the tunnels. Because the nuance here 

11 is that the tunnels that were built in 1937 

12 did not become contaminated as the new tunnels 

13 that were built after 1957. So the question 

14 is, what type of exposure to reconstruct for 

15 workers between the beginning of the plant 

16 through 1957.

17 After 1957, then the workers would 

18 be getting the full dose reconstruction 

19 because of the contamination of the tunnels 

20 with radon and various progeny that exist in 

21 the tunnels that we believe were built after 

22 1957.
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1 That is really the only difference 

2 here. We have no doubt that workers used the 

3 tunnels. It is just what type of internal 

4 exposure to assign from occupancy in the 

5 times.

6 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well just to let 

7 you know that a couple of the workers in 

8 question who provided the bulk of these 

9 statements are actually on the phone right 

10 now. So they have been listening to this 

11 entire conversation.

12 DR. NETON: Okay.

13 MS. BONSIGNORE: Hopefully, I will 

14 have a chance to speak with them after the 

15 meeting to get their assessment of what has 

16 been going on here today.

17 DR. NETON: Okay.

18 MS. BONSIGNORE: I know that 

19 Senator Gillibrand is going to be scheduling a 

20 conference call with your office about these 

21 issues, about the Site Profile revisions. So 

22 I would like the opportunity to, in advance of 
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1 that meeting with the Senator's office, to 

2 actually speak with these workers who have 

3 been listening today to try and get some 

4 clarity about the statements that have been 

5 made about tunnel construction, about the 

6 maps. Again, it would be really helpful if I 

7 could get a copy of that map. Someone 

8 mentioned it is on the Board's database. I 

9 don't seem to have this map.

10 DR. NETON: Well, Ms. Bonsignore, 

11 I think what might be helpful is if we could 

12 get you copies of these blowups because they 

13 are, frankly, --

14 MS. BONSIGNORE: Exactly.

15 DR. NETON: -- much easier to use 

16 than -- you know, it wasn't --

17 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes, I think that 

18 would be helpful. It would also be helpful 

19 for me to show to the workers. I'm sure that 

20 they are having an equally difficult time 

21 following.

22 DR. NETON: Yes, the PDF files are 
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1 very difficult to read but these blowups, I 

2 find them to be very easy to read. And you 

3 are sort of looking at it in one fell swoop, 

4 not like little pieces at a time when you blow 

5 them up on a computer.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Let me see if I 

7 can direct the main question that we are 

8 trying to determine from these drawings. It 

9 is not whether the workers used tunnels. It 

10 is what type of dose reconstruction model to 

11 use during different time periods.

12 DR. NETON: Exactly.

13 CHAIR ROESSLER: And what we are 

14 trying to establish here, I think, is what 

15 tunnels were in existence after '57; what ones 

16 were not in existence --

17 DR. NETON: Correct.

18 CHAIR ROESSLER: -- let's say, 

19 during that time period.

20 To me this one diagram that we are 

21 looking at, and I think all the evidence 

22 points to the fact that there are certain 
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1 tunnels here that were proposed to be built 

2 somewhere after 1961. It is pretty clear to 

3 me they were not in existence on the '57 map 

4 or the '36 map.

5 And so I think if we can conclude 

6 that these tunnels were not in existence 

7 before 1961, then I think that answers our 

8 main question.

9 DR. NETON: Yes. We have, we have 

10 agreed with, I think all of us have agreed in 

11 the past as to how to reconstruct the dose 

12 within the tunnel. That is not an open issue, 

13 I don't think.

14 It is just which doses to 

15 reconstruct. And prior to 1957, we don't 

16 believe that the existing tunnels, the tunnels 

17 that existed prior to '57 had the radium and 

18 radon contamination issues that the tunnels 

19 that were built after '57 were. Because the 

20 newer tunnels are over on the side of the 

21 plant where all the processing was done, the 

22 Building 30 with the raffinate material that 
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1 contaminated them, and for those tunnels, we 

2 have very detailed surveys of the 

3 contamination in them.

4 MR. CRAWFORD: I think it might be 

5 worth pointing out that, because we have SEC 

6 periods continuously through 1969, the impact 

7 on dose reconstructions is small.

8 It has basically two implications. 

9 One, if people do not have a so-called 

10 scheduled cancer, we have to do a dose 

11 reconstruction. Also if there are multiple 

12 cancers and there is a question about medical 

13 benefits and so forth, we may have to do a 

14 dose reconstruction. So it is important that 

15 those dose reconstructions be made on some 

16 realistic grounds but it will not affect the 

17 basic compensation decisions for very many 

18 people. Everyone who has a lung cancer, for 

19 instance, will be paid under the SEC. It does 

20 not matter how much radon is in this tunnel.

21 DR. NETON: If they were there for 

22 250 days.
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1 MS. BONSIGNORE: I understand 

2 that. I understand that. I still think this 

3 is an important question to clarify.

4 DR. NETON: I agree.

5 MS. BONSIGNORE: I don't know. I 

6 would like to get SC&A's input at this point 

7 on what Jim just said.

8 DR. MAURO: Steve, would you like 

9 me to jump in or would you like to cover? 

10 This is John Mauro.

11 DR. OSTROW: John, you can jump 

12 in.

13 MR. MAURO: Okay, thanks. I agree 

14 that this issue has to be -- notwithstanding 

15 the fact that the respiratory tract cancers 

16 are all covered, and the marginal issue though 

17 is for those folks who were there for less 

18 than 250 days, you know, they are not going to 

19 be covered.

20 Now one could ask the question, 

21 well, was that important. And I would argue 

22 that well there may be certain workers there 
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1 during the time periods of interest that we 

2 are talking about that were there for less 

3 than 250 days who came down with a respiratory 

4 cancer and they would not be compensated. And 

5 whether or not -- so therefore, they would get 

6 a dose reconstruction, a partial dose 

7 reconstruction.

8 Now it turns out, in my opinion, 

9 that even if a person was there let's say 

10 three, four, or five months during the covered 

11 period, and let's say for a moment we decide 

12 or it is decided that yes we are going to 

13 assign that worker an exposure to radon in 

14 tunnels at the 100 picocurie per liter number. 

15 That is the number that is our sort of 

16 default number. I understand what we are 

17 talking about completely. Believe me.

18 But let's for a moment say well 

19 the difference is here we have a person, we 

20 are going to reconstruct his dose and there is 

21 one of two things we are going to do. And he 

22 is there for less than 250 days so we are 
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1 going to reconstruct his dose to the 

2 respiratory tract system. In one case he is 

3 going to say no, no, he is not exposed to 100 

4 picocuries per liter. We are going to assume 

5 that he gets to 10 picocuries per liter. That 

6 is a default above ground number. Right, and 

7 that really is the question.

8 So that person, now there may not 

9 be many of those people but maybe there is one 

10 or two, I don't know. The difference is in 

11 one case you assign ten picocuries per liter. 

12 Any other case you assign 100 picocuries per 

13 liter.

14 Now in my opinion, when you are 

15 doing a dose for the respiratory tract, it 

16 doesn't take very much radon to deliver a 

17 relatively high dose. My rule of thumb -- and 

18 so I guess what I am saying is that difference 

19 between 10 picocuries per liter and 100 

20 picocuries per liter, even though it may only 

21 be for three, four, five, six months, is not a 

22 small difference. It could be a substantial 
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1 difference. I don't know Jim if you would 

2 agree with that.

3 DR. NETON: Yes, I would agree 

4 with that, John, but I don't know if that is 

5 really relevant to what we are talking about 

6 here. I mean, we have drawings. We have to 

7 decide whether the source term was there or 

8 not. I mean, that is the issue.

9 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes. But I mean 

10 as I say, my opinion is resolved -- I guess -

11 - 

12 DR. NETON: I don't think we can 

13 --

14 DR. MAURO: I do believe that this 

15 is something that we do need to answer because 

16 the difference in the dose you would assign to 

17 this worker who was there for less than 250 

18 days to his respiratory tract could be 

19 substantially different, depending on how you 

20 resolve this issue.

21 DR. NETON: Oh, absolutely. Yes, 

22 and I don't think anybody is arguing we 
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1 shouldn't resolve it. I don't think we should 

2 inform our decision based on who gets paid or 

3 not. We have to base it on the merits of the 

4 facts of what we are looking at right now.

5 DR. MAURO: Oh, I agree with you. 

6 I guess someone raised the question just now 

7 whether we think this is important or not. 

8 And my opinion is the answer is yes, for those 

9 workers who might have been there, had 

10 respiratory tract cancer and were there for 

11 less than 250 days.

12 DR. NETON: Right. Absolutely. 

13 And there could be a situation where a person 

14 has covered exposures from another facility 

15 and some little bit over here would put them 

16 over. So it is imperative that we decide here 

17 based on the facts in front of us how we are 

18 going to reconstruct dose through 1957. That 

19 is the issue.

20 DR. MAURO: And that's all I'm 

21 saying. There is reason to believe that this 

22 is something that does need to be resolved.
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1 DR. NETON: Oh, yes. Absolutely. 

2 I agree with you.

3 So the question still remains is, 

4 what was the source term for radon before 

5 1957. That is the question. And we have 

6 drawings in front of us that I think seem to 

7 indicate pretty strongly that only the tunnels 

8 that were built in 1937 were there through 

9 '57. That is what the maps show me. I think 

10 it would be good for us or important for us to 

11 provide these to the stakeholders including 

12 Antoinette Bonsignore, who would benefit, I 

13 think, from seeing the blow-ups. They are 

14 much easier to read and view and go from 

15 there, I guess. I mean, I don't know what 

16 else we can do at this point.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: I wonder. I 

18 think it helped us to have them presented to 

19 us and have Chris orient us as he did with the 

20 various maps and with the various discussion 

21 here. I'm wondering if that would work for us 

22 just to mail them out and have her look at 
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1 them.

2 DR. NETON: Well, I mean we could 

3 have another conversation. We could have a 

4 telephone conversation with everyone having 

5 their maps. I don't know how many copies we 

6 can make. I don't know how much these cost.

7 MEMBER LOCKEY: This is Jim 

8 Lockey. At the University, we do historical 

9 dose reconstructions and we go back and we 

10 look at all kinds of things, including 

11 engineering drawings. And these drawings are 

12 very persuasive. To say that the tunnels were 

13 not constructed based on these engineering 

14 drawings would really be a reach that would be 

15 difficult to reconcile because they are pretty 

16 clear as to when the tunnels were put in.

17 There were tunnels in '37. There 

18 were subsequent tunnels built. Some of them 

19 are low enough they would be difficult to get 

20 in. Some of them you would have to crawl in 

21 or stoop in. Some you could walk in. And 

22 that is consistent with what the workers are 
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1 saying.

2 But we would use these in 

3 relationship to, if I was doing a dose 

4 reconstruction in this facility, these would 

5 be used as to when these tunnels were built. 

6 There is no question.

7 DR. NETON: And as John pointed 

8 out, to be clear, if these drawings are 

9 accurate, which I believe they are, then prior 

10 to 1957 workers with non-presumptive cancers 

11 would receive an exposure of 10 picocuries per 

12 liter of radon. After 1957, they would 

13 receive 100 picocuries per liter plus the 

14 contamination that was discovered on the walls 

15 of those tunnels that were built after 1957. 

16 It would a small minor component in addition 

17 to the radon but there are some radon progeny 

18 that plated out on the walls of the tunnels 

19 that we have a method to reconstruct.

20 MEMBER LOCKEY: These tunnels 

21 definitely are big enough for people to either 

22 stoop in or walk into.
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1 DR. NETON: Oh, yes.

2 MEMBER LOCKEY: There is no 

3 question.

4 DR. NETON: I have no doubt people 

5 were in these tunnels. That has not been an 

6 issue in my mind. It is just which tunnels 

7 they were in and which time period.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: Josie, do you 

9 have any questions or input? You are 

10 studying.

11 MEMBER BEACH: No, I don't. I was 

12 just trying to recreate this worker's --

13 Steve, I'm looking at your October 17th, that 

14 you sent out and I was just trying to recreate 

15 that using these maps and it's impossible, 

16 from what I can tell. I was going to have Gen 

17 look at it and see what she thought.

18 This is the worker's statement and 

19 between Building 39 and 58 but if you look at 

20 the drawings, 58 wasn't built yet based on, 

21 was it this one here? This one says future 

22 building -- anyway, I was trying to recreate 
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1 it.

2 CHAIR ROESSLER: So this is the 

3 one worker's affidavit that doesn't match what 

4 we are looking at here with regard to the 

5 tunnels. I think all the other ones do.

6 MEMBER BEACH: So I was just 

7 trying to recreate it.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: It would be worth 

9 looking at it further to try and figure out 

10 what he is talking about here.

11 Then I think Steve's conclusion on 

12 this is that it can be interpreted to imply 

13 that most of the tunnel complex, beginning in 

14 Building 10, now let's point out Building 10. 

15 I can't even find Building 10.

16 MEMBER BEACH: I couldn't either. 

17 Can you find Building 10 for us?

18 CHAIR ROESSLER: Would it be to 

19 the north? It is the building north and east 

20 of Buildings 30 and 31 was in existence.

21 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay, ten is -- 

22 MEMBER BEACH: And this tunnel is 
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1 in existence. Right?

2 MR. CRAWFORD: That's correct.

3 CHAIR ROESSLER: But I think what 

4 we want to do is look at this map, which is 

5 the '61 map and see if we can figure out --

6 because this is really what we are discussing. 

7 These are the new tunnels.

8 MEMBER BEACH: I just wanted to 

9 see if I could recreate where that was.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes, I think we 

11 need to do that so that we can figure out what 

12 time period that actually applies to.

13 MEMBER LOCKEY: Are you talking 

14 about this one?

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes, these two 

16 paragraphs here or Steve's conclusion from it. 

17 It says tunnel beginning in Building 10. Now 

18 where is Building 10?

19 MEMBER BEACH: Building 10 is on 

20 this map here. I don't know where it is at 

21 over there.

22 CHAIR ROESSLER: Because I think 
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1 that is important. Because if it is not on 

2 this map, then it fits in the old tunnel 

3 discussion, rather than the new tunnel 

4 discussion.

5 MR. CRAWFORD: Right.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: And east to 

7 Buildings 30 and 31 -- see, here is an 

8 existing tunnel. This was before '61.

9 MEMBER BEACH: So can you tell us, 

10 is Building 10 is that, in this scheme of 

11 things, where is it, down here?

12 MR. CRAWFORD: No, that would be 

13 right where you are standing.

14 MEMBER BEACH: That's what I 

15 thought. That's what I thought.

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: And then it 

17 doesn't seem like that has anything to do with 

18 Building 30 and 31.

19 MEMBER BEACH: But if you look, 

20 Gen, there are some old tunnels here in back 

21 of 36.

22 MR. CRAWFORD: Right.
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1 MEMBER BEACH: But to connect this 

2 statement is what I was trying to do and it 

3 was difficult.

4 DR. NETON: Yes, when it says east 

5 of 30, it doesn't really --

6 MEMBER BEACH: But it is correct 

7 based on -- yes, that is not correct.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: But those are old 

9 tunnels.

10 MEMBER BEACH: But they are old 

11 tunnels.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: And so to me, 

13 they don't have pertinence to what we are 

14 discussing here as to which -- about these 

15 tunnels.

16 MEMBER BEACH: Right. This is what 

17 the statement that changed SC&A's mind though 

18 prior to our last meeting. So that is why I 

19 wanted to see if we could reconstruct that, 

20 based on these drawings. And I think it would 

21 be helpful maybe for SC&A to get a hold of 

22 these drawings and look at them as well.
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1 MR. KATZ: Well SC&A blew up these 

2 drawings.

3 DR. NETON: I'm not sure if they 

4 are as clear as ours or not but we --

5 DR. MAURO: This is John. I could 

6 run over -- I have to apologize. I could run 

7 over to Nicole's house right now --

8 MEMBER BEACH: Oh, no. I don't 

9 think that is necessary.

10 DR. NETON: I don't think you want 

11 to do that, John.

12 DR. MAURO: Okay.

13 DR. NETON: I don't think we are 

14 going to come to a decision today from what I 

15 am hearing so far.

16 DR. MAURO: Okay.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: I think we have 

18 pointed out the items that need to be 

19 addressed and that certainly is one of them.

20 In my view anyway is Steve's last 

paragraph in that memo of October 17th 21 , and 

22 that is the one where he says the statement is 
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1 not clear and definitive and then he goes on 

2 to talk about why. I think you need to look 

3 at what he is discussing there and then look 

4 in particular at the 1961 map, look at what is 

5 called the new construction and then see if 

6 you can figure out what tunnels he is talking 

7 about there. I don't see them in the new 

8 construction.

9 MEMBER BEACH: I don't either.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: I think we need 

11 to resolve that.

12 MS. BONSIGNORE: Also, I think it 

13 would be important to re-read the interviews 

14 that Steve and Arjun did, I think it was May 

15 19th, with a number of the Linde workers and 

16 the one worker in particular who has a great 

17 deal of time and provided maps for Steve and 

18 Arjun. I think it would be important to re19 read that document. It is Linde Worker 

20 Interview Notes Niagara Falls, May 19th.

21 DR. NETON: Yes, I have that 

22 document. I actually have gone through this 
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1 in preparation for the meeting.

2 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, I'm just 

3 suggesting that Josie and Gen and Dr. Lockey 

4 should take another look at that as well 

5 because it is really, it is more of a 

6 conversation between the worker's and -- I am 

7 desperately trying not to say his name. The 

8 one worker in particular provides very 

9 detailed information over a number of pages 

10 and I think it would be important to take 

11 another look at it. Particularly, Josie, you 

12 were having a little trouble sort of making 

13 connections between some of his statements and 

14 some of the maps.

15 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, I was actually 

16 just trying to recreate his statements based 

17 on what we are seeing in the maps.

18 DR. NETON: Right. And actually 

19 the one worker who we are talking about did 

20 provide a map that was marked up in red that 

21 is attached to that interview.

22 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right. Right, he 
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1 did.

2 DR. NETON: Again, there is no 

3 dates on that map. So I think his map is 

4 accurate but as to when the tunnels were there 

5 is still a question in my mind.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: So we have some 

7 things we have to follow-up on. What else can 

8 we do here today?

9 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well I had a 

10 couple of questions about just in terms of 

11 once this issue is resolved, what NIOSH 

12 believes will be a timeline in terms of 

13 revising the Site Profile and when previously 

14 denied claims will start being reevaluated. 

15 I am just trying to give a good 

16 deal of workers who have been waiting many 

17 years for resolution here some ballpark 

18 estimate as to when they might be receiving 

19 indications about their claims.

20 MR. KATZ: Right. Antoinette, 

21 that is on the agenda.

22 MS. BONSIGNORE: Who are not 
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1 included in the SEC.

2 MR. KATZ: Right. Antoinette, 

3 that is on the agenda for today. I think what 

4 Gen was getting at is the Work Group needs to 

5 decide how to close this issue because the TBD 

6 won't get updated until this issue is put to 

7 bed, I think. Maybe it will. I don't know.

8 DR. NETON: Well if nothing 

9 changes and we believe that -- it is decided 

10 the tunnels were built after '57, nothing 

11 changes in the Site Profile. I mean, we will 

12 not reevaluate any cases because the Site 

13 Profile right now assigns doses as if the 

14 tunnels were built -- there was new tunnels 

15 built after '57. Correct?

16 MR. CRAWFORD: It may have to be 

17 updated because of the SEC.

18 DR. NETON: Well the new SEC Class 

19 that was added but that will actually remove 

20 portions of the dose reconstruction from the 

21 Site Profile and that is being worked on as we 

22 speak.
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1 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, I'm a 

2 little confused because Senators Gillibrand 

3 and Schumer received a letter from Dr. Howard 

4 saying that NIOSH had identified approximately 

5 60 cases that -- I believe I have the letter.

6 DR. NETON: I'm confused as well. 

7 There may be 60 cases that fall within the 

8 presumptive classes, which those have already 

9 been forwarded to the Department of Labor, I 

10 am sure, for resolution.

11 MS. BONSIGNORE: Oh, okay. It 

12 says -- this is a letter dated December 22nd. 

13 It says that NIOSH recognizes -- Senator 

14 Gillibrand and Senator Schumer wanted to get a 

15 list of claimants who had previously denied 

16 claims that would be reevaluated as a result 

17 of a revised Site Profile.

18 And the letter says, NIOSH 

19 recognizes the importance of maintaining a 

20 proper flow of information to congressional 

21 members and has given due weight and 

22 consideration to your request for Privacy Act 
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1 protected information. We believe that we 

2 could continue to assist you in serving your 

3 constituents by providing other non-Privacy 

4 Act protected information such as claims 

5 statistics. For example, NIOSH expects to 

6 reevaluate approximately 60 claims from the 

7 Linde Ceramics Plant that, based on 

8 information available to NIOSH, did not appear 

9 to qualify for compensation via any of the 

10 Linde SEC classes and had previously received 

11 a dose reconstruction report that yielded a 

12 Probability of Causation less than 50 percent. 

13 The number of claims to be reevaluated is of 

14 necessity approximate because the decision 

15 about being included in the SEC classes is 

16 made by the Department of Labor. For some 

17 claims, Department of Labor had some 

18 information that NIOSH does not because that 

19 information is not relevant to dose 

20 reconstruction.

21 DR. NETON: Right, okay.

22 MS. BONSIGNORE: It might also be 
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1 possible for us to provide other statistics 

2 such as distribution of cancer type and years 

3 of employment.

4 DR. NETON: Okay, I understand 

5 where you are coming from now. I think what 

6 has happened here is there are 60 cases here 

7 that are non-presumptive cancers that will 

8 need to be evaluated. The Site Profile has 

9 been modified, based on our discussions during 

10 the Working Group process.

11 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay.

12 DR. NETON: We made a lot of 

13 modifications. That Site Profile has been 

14 modified but we can't, I think what we are 

15 saying there is until this last piece is 

16 decided, it doesn't make sense for us to 

17 proceed with these 60 cases.

18 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. So once 

19 this last piece is decided, those 60 cases 

20 will be reevaluated?

21 DR. NETON: Yes, and they should 

22 go very quickly because as I say, all the 
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1 other pieces have been included in there, the 

2 various agreements that we made about how much 

3 radon was there and those sorts of decisions 

4 that were made. But until we can decide 

5 definitively whether the tunnels were there, 

6 whether these additional tunnels were 

7 constructed in '57 or they were there the 

8 entire duration of the site's history, that 

9 needs to be decided to move these 60 cases 

10 forward.

11 MR. KATZ: Okay, so the TBD that 

12 is available to the public right now is up-to13 date, unless something changes with respect to 

14 the tunnel?

15 DR. NETON: With the caveat --

16 MR. KATZ: And with SEC addition.

17 DR. NETON: -- with the new SEC 

18 addition.

19 MR. KATZ: Okay.

20 DR. NETON: But that will only 

21 remove a portion from there.

22 MR. KATZ: Okay.
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1 DR. NETON: But it is up-to-date 

2 as of July, I think, 2011.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay.

4 DR. NETON: So the only addition 

5 that would -- the only thing that would change 

6 in my opinion would be either -- well, the 

7 only thing that would change would be when the 

8 tunnels were built and what type of dose 

9 during what time period would be provided to 

10 those workers. So that should be very quick. 

11 Because again --

12 MS. BONSIGNORE: So one additional 

13 question. You identified -- in October you 

14 discovered that the data that you had been 

15 relying upon for your opinion that the SEC 

16 from '47 to '53 should not be approved was 

17 incorrect. That information does not impact 

18 any of these cases in the Site Profile?

19 DR. NETON: No. No, that would 

20 just -- all we would do there is to remove any 

21 dose reconstruction methods that we had 

22 previously employed because we had determined 
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1 that the method was insufficiently accurate.

2 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, so that 

3 would not require any Site Profile revision 

4 then.

5 DR. NETON: Well, it would. We 

6 would just take out the method because the 

7 method is not accurate.

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, so that is 

9 my question. So there do need to be some 

10 modifications in some respect.

11 DR. NETON: As I said, for the new 

12 SEC that was just added, that is correct.

13 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay.

14 DR. NETON: And we are working on 

15 that now. The modifications are not that 

16 difficult because again, it is a removal of 

17 doses that can be reconstructed, not the 

18 creation of new approaches.

19 MR. KATZ: But so that doesn't 

20 hold up proceeding with those dose 

21 reconstructions that you need to do, except 

22 that you won't use the methods were -- led to 
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1 the SEC Class.

2 DR. NETON: Except for the fact 

3 that we need to make it -- we need to decide 

4 when the tunnels were in existence.

5 MR. KATZ: Right. No, I know. 

6 Other than this issue.

7 DR. NETON: Yes, other than this 

8 issue. This is the last issue that needs to 

9 be, in my opinion, resolved. And the 

10 occupancy factor issue, too. That is another 

11 one.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: Do we need to 

13 discuss that one today?

14 DR. NETON: Well I think it would 

15 be good because it is going to come into play 

16 either way.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay.

18 DR. NETON: We need to decide how 

19 much time people spent in the tunnels, whether 

20 they get 10 picocuries per liter or 100 is --

21 over what period of time.

22 DR. MAURO: This is John. If I 
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1 may, it sounds like the issue comes out to 

2 pre-1957. For the workers pre-1957, should we 

3 be assigned 10 or 100 picocuries per liter for 

4 the dose to the respiratory tract plus the 

5 other residual, which is a modest addition.

6 But the real question is, do we 

7 have the information before us right now to 

8 help us or allow us to make that judgment at 

9 this time. And what I am hearing is that we 

10 have two pieces of information that we are 

11 dealing with, which goes towards the weight of 

12 evidence. One is the drawings that have now 

13 been blown up which show, in my mind without 

14 any question or very little question, that the 

15 trestles were carrying the power prior to '57 

16 and the tunnels were not.

17 So therefore, that is one piece of 

18 evidence, this hard copy evidence that we are 

19 looking at and reading what you have described 

20 in it and read it, even though I don't have it 

21 in front of me, I have talked to others before 

22 this meeting and listened to this which 
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1 confirms my understanding is that at least 

2 with the perspective of the drawings we are 

3 looking at, a strong argument could be made 

4 that those contaminated tunnels were not there 

5 before '57.

6 So that puts the problem to bed 

7 except that we do have that one interview that 

8 argues against that interpretation of the 

9 drawings. And the way I believe Chris read it 

10 earlier, he nuanced it a bit, which is an 

11 important nuance, which said it was an 

12 understanding by a worker that those tunnels 

13 must have been there but not a statement of 

14 his personal experience that he actually 

15 walked through those tunnels.

16 So what we have, and please 

17 correct me if I am wrong, if I am making it 

18 too simple, is we have these pieces of 

19 information. The drawings which argue for one 

20 point. We have the interview which argues in 

21 a nuanced way for a different decision. And 

22 that is the evidence was have before us upon 
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1 which to make a judgment. Were they there or 

2 were they not there in 1957.

3 DR. NETON: Well John, we also 

4 have the statement of the maintenance 

5 superintendent who said that the tunnels were 

6 built after 1957.

7 DR. MAURO: Very good. So we have 

8 three pieces.

9 CHAIR ROESSLER: John?

10 DR. MAURO: Yes?

11 CHAIR ROESSLER: With regard to 

12 your one comment about the statement, and this 

13 is the one that Steve brings up in his draft 

14 memo of October 17th. I have reread his 

15 statement. I have looked at the drawings 

16 here. I have looked at a drawing of the 

17 complete site. To me, his statement doesn't 

18 fit together. I would like to have you and 

19 Steve, when you get the new drawings, go back 

20 over that statement and see if you still 

21 concur that there is a question. I think if 

22 you look at it and look at the drawings as we 
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1 are now looking at them, that you may say no, 

2 no, it is resolved. 

3 I think you need to do that and I 

4 think that will answer that one question that 

5 we still have hanging.

6 DR. MAURO: Fair enough.

7 MR. KATZ: So John, when you get 

8 back with Nicole and the maps that she has, if 

9 they are not completely legible because these 

10 ones that they have here in the room are 

11 completely legible, clear, if they are not 

12 completely legible, and you need to have a 

13 copy that is more legible, then let DCAS know. 

14 And in addition to getting these to 

15 Antoinette, they will get copies to you.

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: And then I think 

17 that they also have to have this drawing of 

18 the whole site that Chris just provided to me 

19 where I am trying to relate Building 10 into 

20 the discussion that Steve has on his memo. I 

21 think -- that one also to evaluate or 

22 reevaluate that statement.
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1 DR. MAURO: Fine. We would be 

2 glad to take that on as an action item and get 

3 on it right away.

4 CHAIR ROESSLER: So it seems like 

5 where we are on this one item and that is what 

6 tunnels were in existence before 1957, and 

7 Josie, I am going to propose a statement here 

8 that I think the Work Group concurs with the 

9 approach that NIOSH has in existence now for 

10 doing dose reconstruction based on the 

11 interpretation of what tunnels were in 

12 existence before 1957 and after 1957, unless 

13 something comes up from either Antoinette or 

14 SC&A that will change our mind on it.

15 MR. KATZ: So we should have a 

16 timeline on this because as Antoinette has 

17 pointed out, there are these cases that are 

18 waiting for this to get resolved. And in 

19 fact, they can't go forward until this gets 

20 resolved. Let's try to put a timeline on 

21 SC&A's review and what time Antoinette may 

22 need to bring these maps to some workers and 
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1 sit down with them.

2 MS. BONSIGNORE: I'll probably 

3 need at least a week.

4 MR. KATZ: That is brief, 

5 Antoinette.

6 MS. BONSIGNORE: And also Gen, 

7 Mike is not here. So you know, I think it 

8 would be helpful to have his perspective on 

9 it.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: What plans can we 

11 make to involve him on this?

12 MR. KATZ: You know, he has missed 

13 the meeting. And if we have another Work 

14 Group meeting, we will invite him. He was 

15 asked to attend this. He had this on his 

16 schedule and he is not here.

17 But you have a quorum of your Work 

18 Group. So one way or another this needs to 

19 get settled.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: It seems like we 

21 can get this settled before our February Board 

22 meeting if Antoinette can --
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1 DR. MAURO: Gen, I'm sorry. This 

2 is John. The questions that are being raised 

3 are somewhat -- bear with me for a moment.

4 Let's say SC&A gets back next week 

5 to you and says well after looking at this, we 

6 still believe there is an issue. If we get 

7 back -- I'll make it simpler. Let's say we 

8 get back and we conclude that the weight of 

9 evidence in our opinion is that there were no 

10 tunnels there prior to -- those tunnels, the 

11 contaminated tunnels were not there prior to 

12 '57, it ends there as far as SC&A's 

13 contribution. And of course the Work Group 

14 makes its own judgments.

15 But let's say we come back and say 

16 you know, we still feel that there is some 

17 ambiguity and that there may have been the 

18 potential for exposure or that the tunnels may 

19 very well have been there. You know, I'm not 

20 saying we are going to come to that but if we 

21 do, we have a bit of a dilemma. We are at a 

22 place now if one concludes that the tunnels 
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1 were in fact there, then there are other 

2 questions, and Jim, you brought this up 

3 earlier, that need to be addressed. One, the 

4 tunnels that were there, what was their 

5 occupancy? Because now we are talking about 

6 doing a dose reconstruction and now occupancy 

7 times come in.

8 DR. NETON: Well John, that comes 

9 into play either way because after 1957 we 

10 need to decide.

11 DR. MAURO: That's true. You are 

12 absolutely right. That becomes a problem 

13 either way.

14 MR. KATZ: So John, just the thing 

15 we would like to know from you is how much 

16 time for SC&A to go back to the maps.

17 DR. MAURO: I will tell you, 

18 Steve, I think we can do this in a week.

19 DR. OSTROW: Okay, John, I think 

20 after this meeting call Nicole or I will call 

21 Nicole and find out if the drawings she has 

22 are clear enough for us to look at it. If 
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1 not, we will take up Ted's offer and ask NIOSH 

2 to send us a clean set.

3 DR. MAURO: Okay, I'll do that 

4 today.

5 DR. OSTROW: Okay.

6 DR. MAURO: In other words, I'll 

7 find out. And Ted, I'll get back to you right 

8 away and let you know whether we need the set 

9 or not.

10 MR. KATZ: That sounds good. And 

11 let's just put then, to give us some breathing 

12 room here, a couple weeks for Antoinette and 

13 for SC&A to follow-up on the map reading 

14 business.

15 DR. OSTROW: On the map reading, I 

16 would suggest -- this is Steve again-- that 

17 John, Nicole, and I meet at John's house, 

18 that's a good location, and spread out the 

19 maps and we will go over it. It shouldn't 

20 take us too long. We have looked at the maps 

21 many times. Let's just take another look at 

22 it in a couple of days and decide.
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1 MR. KATZ: Yes, and hopefully you 

2 are taking notes. I know it is hard to take 

3 notes on the kind of discussion that was had 

4 over these maps but hopefully you have gotten 

5 enough of the gist of that to help you in your 

6 looking at the maps again.

7 DR. MAURO: Could we get -- This 

8 is John. Sorry to interrupt. Could we get 

9 the transcript in just rough form?

10 MR. KATZ: Yes but it doesn't get 

11 cranked out that quickly.

12 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay.

13 CHAIR ROESSLER: It might be 

14 helpful once you get the maps. Then if you 

15 have a question with regard to interpretation, 

16 can't he get on the phone with Chris and have 

17 Chris walk him through it?

18 MR. KATZ: Yes, there is no 

19 problem with that. You can --

20 DR. MAURO: Great.

21 MR. KATZ: -- get on the phone and 

22 ask him to repeat things that he may have said 
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1 during the call or Jim Neton, for that matter, 

2 things that they have said during the call.

3 Yes, and the Work Group Members 

4 have sat through it all, so they are well 

5 apprised.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: So it seems like 

7 we need a Work Group call in a couple weeks to 

8 get the input from SC&A, any additional 

9 information from Antoinette. And it seems 

10 that unless you come up with some evidence 

11 that convinces us otherwise, then we are 

12 concurring that NIOSH has the procedure 

13 properly with regard to how to do dose 

14 reconstruction in the different periods.

15 MR. KATZ: So I can try to book a 

16 Work Group call for a couple weeks down the 

17 road -- starting a couple weeks down the road. 

18 It may not be that easy to get it two weeks 

19 down the road.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: It shouldn't take 

21 a long time, I wouldn't think.

22 MR. KATZ: I know. I just have 
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1 been scheduling other Work Group meetings. 

2 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well I just 

3 wonder does it need a call or just an email?

4 MR. KATZ: Yes, it sort of depends 

5 on what SC&A concludes. I mean, SC&A can send 

6 around a memo after they have done their 

7 review to let everybody know what they have 

8 concluded from their re-review of the maps. 

9 And we can also wait on an email or something 

10 from Antoinette to let us know what she has 

11 learned after she sat down with her workers 

12 and the maps.

13 So we can have those two pieces of 

14 information and, depending on what they say, 

15 you can make a judgment as to whether you 

16 actually need a call or a status quo.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: We have a 

18 fallback position.

19 MR. KATZ: You have a fallback 

20 position that everybody is nodding their heads 

21 that they agree that is their position unless 

22 they learn something new. So that is fine 
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1 because that is all done during Work Group 

2 meeting.

3 So we will, Antoinette, if we 

4 could get an email from you after your 

5 experience with your workers, that would be 

6 good, too.

7 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay.

8 MR. KATZ: And we can go ahead and 

9 try to set a meeting just to have it on the 

10 calendar, knowing that it may come off if 

11 there is no new information.

12 DR. OSTROW: This is Steve. In 

13 order to I guess move things forward as best 

14 we can, it was mentioned a few times, when we 

15 have this conference call, the Work Group 

16 conference call in a couple of weeks, we 

17 should also look at the occupancy factor.

18 DR. NETON: Yes.

19 MR. KATZ: Are we going to do that 

20 now?

21 DR. NETON: Well I would just say 

22 SC&A has not formally opined on the occupancy 
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1 factor issue here, I don't think. Have you?

2 DR. OSTROW: We don't really have 

3 a feeling one way or the other. Right now, 

4 you can correct me if I am wrong, right now 

5 NIOSH has like two classes, the workers and 

6 laborers --

7 DR. NETON: Right.

8 DR. OSTROW: -- and other 

9 personnel. Workers and laborers you are 

10 assigning, or assuming eight hours per day two 

11 months per year, and the other ten months per 

12 year, ten minutes a day. And all other 

13 personnel, you are just assigning ten minutes 

14 a day for the entire year. And that is it.

15 DR. NETON: I thought we had --

16 Didn't we assign 20 percent, Chris?

17 MR. CRAWFORD: Well we came up 

18 with a finding that decided two months. The 

19 original Corps of Engineers estimate was --

20 DR. NETON: About 20 percent.

21 MR. CRAWFORD: -- about 20 

22 percent.
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1 DR. NETON: Yes, it is outlined in 

2 our Site Profile. Whatever is in there is 

3 what we are doing. And I think you have got 

4 it fairly close.

5 DR. OSTROW: Yes, I just quoted 

6 that, actually.

7 DR. NETON: Okay, then that is 

8 what it is.

9 DR. MAURO: This is John. I don't 

10 think we have ever taken a position one way or 

11 the other because we all felt that it was --

12 DR. NETON: A Site Profile.

13 DR. MAURO: -- the first thing we 

14 had to decide is whether or not this is a 

15 scenario that is in play.

16 MR. KATZ: It is in play no matter 

17 what.

18 DR. NETON: Yes, we agree it's in 

19 play.

20 DR. MAURO: And we didn't really 

21 take it on -- I know -- Steve, have we done 

22 any interview work where we try to explore 
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1 that or is this something that we really did 

2 not look at?

3 DR. OSTROW: No, we really punted 

4 on this. We felt that this is not an SEC 

5 issue and some day in the future when we look 

6 at TBD issues we will look at this. We 

7 haven't really looked at this in any detail.

8 DR. NETON: Well I think in that 

9 May 2010 interview with the Linde workers, 

10 there is some discussion from the workers 

11 about how much time they spent, I believe.

12 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes, there is. 

13 There is quite a bit of discussion about this 

14 two months.

15 DR. NETON: Right. So I would 

16 suggest to look at that May 2010 summary. We 

17 have, of course, our own worker input and the 

18 Army Corps of Engineers assertions. So ours 

19 is sort of a composite. But you're right. 

20 Every time this issue came up we decided it 

21 was a Site Profile issue and therefore not 

22 relevant for the SEC but now we need to come 
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1 to a conclusion.

2 DR. MAURO: Well you know, then 

3 Steve, I would suggest that we do two things. 

4 We look at the existence question again and 

5 to the extent we can, we will revisit these 

6 interview notes to see whether or not there is 

7 anything in there which would shed additional 

8 light on the current proposed occupancy levels 

9 and put a memo out to address both questions.

10 MR. KATZ: That sounds good, John. 

11 So, is that something you can still do within 

12 a couple weeks?

13 DR. MAURO: Yes.

14 MR. KATZ: Okay, thank you.

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: So will we have 

16 to have a Work Group call then to discuss the 

17 occupancy issue or do you think we can do 

18 that? So we should, I guess, schedule a Work 

19 Group call.

20 MEMBER BEACH: I think in fairness 

21 to the Work Group.

22 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes. So and can 
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1 we do that within two weeks? Can you get the 

2 notice and everything?

3 MR. KATZ: We won't necessarily be 

4 able to get all of you in a meeting in two 

5 weeks but I will start two weeks out.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Conference calls.

7 MR. KATZ: Yes, I know. But 

8 again, everybody's got busy schedules. So I 

9 will try to do it beginning two weeks out 

10 going forward. I will get it whenever we can.

11 The Board meeting really isn't --

12 This is not on the agenda for the Board 

13 meeting so that is not really a limiting 

14 factor.

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: We will just do 

16 it as soon as we can.

17 MR. KATZ: We will do it as soon 

18 as we can, no sooner than two weeks.

19 DR. NETON: Chris, how long do you 

20 think it would take us to get additional 

21 copies of the drawings?

22 MR. KATZ: Oh, there's that, too.
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1 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm wondering, 

2 actually. We don't have our own paper.

3 MR. KATZ: I mean, at Kinko's you 

4 can copy these.

5 MR. CRAWFORD: Anybody who has a 

6 PDF file can go to Kinko's and get a copy. So 

7 I would suggest that especially SC&A do that.

8 DR. OSTROW: I think that is what 

9 we did.

10 DR. MAURO: This is John. I'm 

11 pretty sure Nicole has the full set. But 

12 that's something I'm going to do right after 

13 this call. Right after we hang up, I'm going 

14 to run over and talk to her, call Steve, maybe 

15 even call Chris and make sure our collection 

16 of full size maps correspond to your 

17 collection so that we can then get to work.

18 We are going to start on this 

19 immediately.

20 MR. CRAWFORD: I'll see if I can 

21 get some budget from Nicole.

22 MR. KATZ: No, you're just doing 
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1 it for Antoinette then, in that case.

2 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm wondering of 

3 the Board Members are going to want copies.

4 MR. KATZ: They have sat around 

5 these copies. I think they are okay. But if 

6 you just --

7 MEMBER LOCKEY: If you bring one 

8 set to the overall Board meeting, people can 

9 look at that.

10 MR. KATZ: Well it's not on the 

11 agenda for the February Board meeting.

12 DR. NETON: It's important to get 

13 one to Ms. Bonsignore and let's get that one 

14 out ASAP.

15 MR. KATZ: I mean, someone with a 

16 government credit card can go to Kinko's. 

17 They are not that expensive. They are under 

18 the limit of a government credit card, I'm 

19 sure.

20 Okay.

21 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay, then --

22 MS. BONSIGNORE: This is 
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1 Antoinette. When might I expect to get 

2 copies?

3 MR. KATZ: I'm going to give you 

4 two weeks from when you get it to be able to 

5 meet with your workers.

6 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. I'm just 

7 wondering will it take days?

8 DR. NETON: I'm hoping days.

9 MR. KATZ: I should think it would 

10 only take days, Antoinette.

11 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay.

12 MR. CRAWFORD: Could you -- I may 

13 have it Antoinette but could you for sure send 

14 me your address to get that sent to?

15 DR. NETON: Well, we'll get that 

16 through Josh. Josh must have it.

17 MS. BONSIGNORE: Josh has my 

18 address.

19 DR. NETON: He can handle that 

20 mailing. It will probably end up be some kind 

21 of a tube, like a mailing tube.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes, they have those at 
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1 Kinko's, too.

2 MS. BONSIGNORE: Oh, okay.

3 DR. NETON: Yes, because these 

4 things, you roll them up and we'll put them in 

5 a mailing tube.

6 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay see, here is 

7 the problem with all of this. I live in 

8 Washington State --

9 MR. KATZ: Right.

10 MS. BONSIGNORE: -- and the 

11 workers live in Buffalo.

12 MR. KATZ: Right. So then two 

13 weeks may not be good for you.

14 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes. I'm sorry. 

15 I was under the impression that this could be 

16 somehow transmitted electronically.

17 MR. KATZ: No, it can. It can, 

18 Antoinette. The problem is is that you can't 

19 read it on a computer screen.

20 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes, I 

21 understand. I'm wondering if it would be 

22 possible to have a copy sent to me and a copy 
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1 sent to one of the workers?

2 MR. KATZ: Yes, I don't see why 

3 not. I mean, we could send one copy to them 

4 and then at least you could be connected by 

5 phone, if you can't fly out there.

6 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right. Right. 

7 Okay. I will send you, Ted or Josh or both of 

8 you, the appropriate addresses.

9 MR. KATZ: That would be good. 

10 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. Also just 

11 one last thing that I want to mention to John 

12 and Steve about the occupancy issue. I 

13 actually highlighted that issue and text from 

14 those May 2010 interviews in my presentation 

15 to the Board in December. And I believe, 

16 Steve, I sent you a copy of that.

17 DR. OSTROW: Yes, I have that, 

18 sure.

19 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, I just 

20 wanted to let you know that.

21 DR. OSTROW: Thank you.

22 DR. MAURO: Let me ask a question. 
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1 When we are working I know we can call Chris 

2 to get clarification to make sure that we 

3 understand what transpired today and that we 

4 are working from the right maps, et cetera, et 

5 cetera.

6 MR. KATZ: Right.

7 DR. MAURO: As we review the 

8 correspondence and the interview notes related 

9 to occupancy factors, if we have any 

10 questions, could we make a phone call to Ms. 

11 Bonsignore or one of the workers to probe 

12 further?

13 MR. KATZ: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: Very good.

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay, then I 

16 think we have taken care of the two main items 

17 on our agenda; the discussion of the tunnels, 

18 other TBD issues was the occupancy factor. We 

19 have a plan forward.

20 MR. KATZ: Right.

21 CHAIR ROESSLER: So unless someone 

22 else has questions or comments or something to 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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1 help us with the plan, I think we have 

2 finished. 

3 Anybody else have anything? 

4 Chris, do you have anything?

5 DR. NETON: Nothing here.

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Hearing nothing, 

7 I think the meeting is adjourned.

8 (Whereupon, at 10:40 a.m., the above-entitled 

9 matter was adjourned.)

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

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