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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

SAFETY & HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON THE PIQUA ORGANIC 

MODERATED REACTOR

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

JULY 8, 2010

+ + + + +

The Work Group convened in the Zurich 

Room of the Cincinnati Airport Marriott, 2395 

Progress Drive, Hebron, Kentucky, at 8:30 

a.m., John W. Poston, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

JOHN W. POSTON, Chairman

R. WILLIAM FIELD, Member

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

HANS BEHLING, SC&A*

RICHARD DECKER*

ROGER HALSEY, ORAU Team*

STU HINNEFELD, DCAS

KARIN JESSEN, ORAU Team*

JENNY LIN, HHS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

JIM NETON, DCAS

GENE POTTER, ORAU Team*

*Participating via telephone
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Call to Order 4

Instructions and Conflicts 4

Report by Dr. Neton 7

Discussion of Path Forward 83

Additional Comments of Working Group 107

Adjourn 118
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (8:30 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: Good morning, everybody 

4 in the room and on the line, this is the 

5 Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, 

6 the Piqua Work Group and we are just getting 

7 started here. We have an agenda. It's been 

8 posted on the Web, I believe, and everyone who 

9 is a participant has one. So we will begin 

10 with roll call. Please state whether you have 

11 a conflict as well as we go through roll call 

12 for agency-related personnel. So, beginning 

13 with Board members in the room, with the 

14 Chair.

15 CHAIRMAN POSTON: John Poston, 

16 Chair, no conflicts.

17 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Phil Schofield, 

18 Board member, no conflicts.

19 MEMBER FIELD: Bill Field, Board 

20 member, no conflicts.

21 MR. KATZ: And do we have any 

22 Board members attending on the line? Okay. 
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1 Then NIOSH ORAU Team in the room?

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Stu Hinnefeld, 

3 Interim Director of DCAS. I don't have a 

4 conflict at Piqua.

5 DR. NETON: Jim Neton, DCAS, no 

6 conflict, as well.

7 MR. KATZ: And on the line, any 

8 NIOSH ORAU Team?

9 MS. JESSEN: This is Karin Jessen, 

10 ORAU, no conflicts.

11 MR. HALSEY: Roger Halsey, ORAU, 

12 no conflict. 

13 MR. POTTER: Gene Potter, ORAU 

14 team, no conflicts. 

15 MR. KATZ: Welcome, all of you. 

16 SC&A team in the room?

17 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A, no 

18 conflict.

19 MR. KATZ: And on the line?

20 DR. BEHLING: Hans Behling, no 

21 conflict.

22 MR. KATZ: Welcome back, Hans, 
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1 from yesterday.

2 DR. BEHLING: Thank you.

3 MR. KATZ: And then HHS or other 

4 agency personnel or contractors working for 

5 one of the departments in the room?

6 MS. LIN: Jenny Lin, HHS.

7 MR. KATZ: And on the line? And 

8 then any members of the public on the line who 

9 would like to identify themselves for the 

10 record?

11 MR. DECKER: Richard Decker, no 

12 conflicts.

13 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Richard. 

14 Okay, and I should have introduced myself. My 

15 name is Ted Katz. I am the Designated Federal 

16 Official for the Advisory Board. And the 

17 agenda is yours, Dr. Poston.

18 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay. Well, I 

19 thought it would be a good idea to start, 

20 since we haven't talked about Piqua for 

21 several meetings, and to go back and go over 

22 the presentation which was made in Port 
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1 Jefferson. And Jim or Stu, Jim's going to do 

2 that. I'll just turn it over to Jim.

3 DR. NETON: Yes, thanks, John. 

4 Chuck Nelson who is our point of contact for 

5 Piqua was not available today, so Stu and --

6 work myself. I'm going to lead the charge, 

7 working with Stu as well as Karin Jessen, Gene 

8 Potter, and Roger Halsey on the phone. They 

9 are the ORAU folks that worked on the 

10 Evaluation Report. So with their support, we 

11 are going to try to provide a picture of where 

12 we are with Piqua. I thought -- I have this 

13 presentation that Chuck gave at the Port 

14 Jefferson, New York meeting in October. I'm 

15 not going to go through all of the slides in 

16 detail, but I'm just going to refresh people's 

17 memories about the site and what our position 

18 was at that time. 

19 It is an interesting facility. It 

20 is a 45-megawatt organically cooled moderated 

21 reactor, sort of a mom and pop reactor 

22 demonstration project located in Piqua, Ohio 
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1 which is probably about, I don't know, maybe 

2 an hour's ride north of here. I never heard 

3 about this until this project. It is an 

4 interesting concept. It was a Atomics 

5 International design and build, and the idea 

6 was they were going to build it and the City 

7 of Piqua workers would take over and operate 

8 the reactor. Like I mentioned, it was an 

9 organically cooled concept. It initially went 

10 critical in '63. Operations were suspended 

11 three years later in ‘66 and it was finally 

12 decommissioned in February of '69. So the 

13 original covered period by the Department of 

14 Energy was '63 to '66. But in searching the 

15 records, we recognized that there was three 

16 years where they were doing D&D and 

17 eventually, you know, we provided information 

18 that got the extra three years covered. It 

19 becomes important later as you will see. 

20 That's just a photo of the reactor dome there, 

21 auxiliary building and a vent stack, 125-foot 

22 vent stack. The control room is in the 
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1 auxiliary building, obviously, and some waste2 handling operations. Pretty small footprint.

3 We received a petition back in 

4 August 2008 and it was originally all 

5 employee-associated with the reactor from '63 

6 to '66, but after we went through and expanded 

7 the period, we ended up covering through '69. 

8 The petition bases no records on activities 

9 related to dismantling. The person who filed 

10 the petition really was concerned about the 

11 D&D operations, not really -- in discussions 

12 with him not so much about the routine 

13 operations of the plant. To my knowledge I 

14 think he was okay with what we did at the 

15 Board meeting which is to add the '66 to '69 

16 period. We have access to a number of annual 

17 summary reports, reactor design, system 

18 documentation, shielding, those sort of 

19 things, but we really have very little in the 

20 way of monitoring records for this facility. 

21 So the current Class we evaluated, 

22 I mentioned '63 to '66. We went through our 
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1 various sources to try and find records and 

2 obviously did not come up with too much except 

3 design documents and some AEC reports I`ll 

4 talk about later. We did interview a number 

5 of people. I believe we did nine --

6 interviewed nine individuals for eleven total 

7 interviews. We interviewed a couple of people 

8 twice. Karin and others on the phone, correct 

9 me if I am wrong here because I'm doing this 

10 from memory.

11 MS. JESSEN: Nine is right and we 

12 interviewed two twice for a total of eleven 

13 interviews.

14 DR. NETON: Thanks. And we went 

15 through our usual sources of available 

16 information, looking at OSTI and we actually 

17 went to the Cincinnati -- Piqua Public 

18 Library. We did a fairly comprehensive record 

19 search looking for things. The slide 

20 summarizes the data-capture efforts: fairly 

21 typical of these 83.13 petitions. 

22 A little bit about what we have in 
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1 the way of claimants for Piqua. We only have 

2 five claims that have been submitted to NIOSH 

3 for this facility. I was just looking through 

4 the records for the meeting, and it appears to 

5 me that only -- four out of the five claims 

6 have been awarded compensation either through 

7 original dose reconstruction before the SEC or 

8 subsequently were awarded compensation based 

9 on the SEC. But there is one claim that was 

10 dose reconstructed with a PoC less than 50 

11 percent and I believe his -- I'm sure his 

12 exposure was in the earlier period. In fact, 

13 I think it was a Atomics International worker 

14 so he wouldn't have been there during D&D. He 

15 was there sort of during the initial phase of 

16 the operation.

17 Again, a small reactor: 45-

18 megawatt. Cooling is an interesting concept 

19 in the fact that it freezes, quote unquote, 

20 below about 280 degrees Fahrenheit so if you 

21 have a spill or a leakage, if it's a liquid at 

22 very high temperatures, below 300 degrees it 
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1 solidifies, so you kind of scrape it up and 

2 clean it up. So it is important I think 

3 because in our opinion that minimizes 

4 potential for contamination. It does undergo 

5 radiolytic decomposition and that ended up to 

6 be the death knell for this reactor, is it --

7 what they call high boiler, which are 

8 solidified chunks of the reactor coolant would 

9 build up in the loop and plug things up. 

10 Standard, you know, it's a 

11 degasification purification. All of this 

12 though, by the way, was during normal 

13 operations, handled remote, all remote14 handled. They did have, like I mentioned, 

15 remote fuel-handling systems, a lot of 

16 filtration. They had portable monitors under 

17 the NRC and they did have 15 area radiation 

18 monitors and this is pretty important; three 

19 continuous air monitors were operating in the 

20 plant during operations. We take advantage of 

21 that for our dose reconstructions later on. 

22 Some of these slides would appear to be 
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1 redundant. Initial criticality '66, shut down 

2 -- '63, shut down '66. Started the recovery 

3 program in May of '66 and then completed it in 

4 '69. 

5 There's your two periods of 

6 operational versus the post-operational. And 

7 it is our opinion that activities were very 

8 different during the post-operational period. 

9 I mean they had the reactor head open, 

10 they're going in, they're doing some invasive 

11 procedures and cutting things out, that sort 

12 of thing. Very different than when the 

13 reactor was under power and the systems were 

14 sealed. So because of the more hands-on work 

15 with open systems and such, we decided we 

16 couldn't reconstruct the '66 to '69 period and 

17 that was the recommended Class, if you 

18 remember. But we believe that we can 

19 reconstruct doses in the '63 to '66 period 

20 which is why we are here. 

21 This slide just lists the primary 

22 sources of internal exposures. There is a 
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1 number of different ways one can get 

2 radioactive materials in a reactor outside the 

3 core. You have activated impurities in the 

4 coolant. You have corrosion products, 

5 activation of aluminum cladding, tritium -- so 

6 these are sort of the mixtures of materials 

7 that are available for either inhalation or 

8 exposure to photons and betas --

9 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Most of these 

10 are short half-life.

11 DR. NETON: Right. And you see 

12 the internal doses end up being fairly small. 

13 Again, with a lot of supporting operations in 

14 the final safeguard summary report, monthly, 

15 quarterly, semi-annual reports of plant 

16 conditions. A lot of operational data but not 

17 much in the way of personnel monitoring data. 

18 It is important, though, to point out that 

19 all data were found to be less than the 

20 maximum permissible concentration for the most 

21 restrictive radionuclide, which in this case 

22 was cobalt-60.
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1 DR. MAURO: And that's all these 

2 15 general air samples?

3 DR. NETON: Air samples and the 

4 CAMs. So, and actually, I don't know --

5 Karin, do you know if we have, actually, the 

6 CAM data or we have just indications that the 

7 CAMs never recorded anything above a certain 

8 level?

9 MS. JESSEN: Roger, do you want to 

10 be more specific on that?

11 MR. HALSEY: I would like to. I'm 

12 looking. 

13 DR. NETON: While you're looking, 

14 I'll just move, forge ahead.

15 DR. MAURO: But this is a gross 

16 beta gamma. Any beta gamma, you will pick up 

17 tritium, carbon-14, so you'll, in effect the 

18 gross beta gamma is an indicator of how much 

19 of that -- those radionuclides, which you 

20 don't know which ones they are, might be 

21 airborne. 

22 DR. NETON: Right. But our 
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1 calculation was the most restrictive nuclide, 

2 if you look at the MPCs -- cobalt-60 so we are 

3 assuming that if it never went above one MPC 

4 for cobalt-60 then that was the highest 

5 cobalt-60. Then you can ratio the 

6 concentrations of the other radionuclides 

7 based on what's known in the source-term of 

8 the fuel.

9 CHAIRMAN POSTON: While we're 

10 talking -- change the subject -- we talked 

11 about, external is the same. There was a 

12 summary report and that was all that was 

13 required in those days, but that had to be 

14 based on some sort of data.

15 DR. NETON: They were monitored, 

16 yes. We determined that they were actually, I 

17 believe, monitored by Landauer. We requested 

18 some information from Landauer but have not 

19 received anything back on those results, even 

20 if they have them. There was a full external 

21 batch program, and I believe somewhere in here 

22 I think all the workers were monitored that 
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1 were working at the plant.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I was just 

3 double-checking because of the statement of 

4 the petitioner that no monitors were -- that 

5 had to do with the D&D period, not the 

6 operational period.

7 DR. NETON: Well, they might have 

8 been monitored, but I think having no 

9 availability to -- we don't have the data --

10 to qualify. It was lost or --

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Right. No 

12 monitoring devices were ever offered, is what 

13 it says on your slide.

14 DR. NETON: That was during the 

15 D&D.

16 CHAIRMAN POSTON: That was during 

17 the D&D period.

18 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: In the 

19 operational period what was the levels, 

20 maximum concentration level they were allowed?

21 DR. NETON: Well, this would have 

22 been, in this particular instance, the maximum 
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1 permissible concentration for cobalt-60 in 

2 air. I don't recall the microcuries per cubic 

3 centimeter value.

4 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: But it was 

5 fairly low, I would assume.

6 DR. NETON: Not real low. I mean 

7 the MPC would give you, if you inhaled it over 

8 -- it would give the dose at a critical organ 

9 a 15 rem over a continuous exposure: not a 

10 trivial inhalation. 

11 MR. HALSEY: I have an answer on 

12 that CAM question, and we don't have any data. 

13 We have the sporadic monthly reports and a 

14 fairly consistent set of semiannual reports

15 where they do mention numbers it is related to 

16 people or general surveys. 

17 DR. NETON: But we've interviewed 

18 workers, and no one ever recalled that CAM 

19 having been alarmed. We assumed they probably 

20 were set below the MPC, but, you know, usually 

21 we would set it at maybe ten percent or 

22 something like that. We are assuming it 
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1 didn't alarm and never exceeded the MPC, so 

2 that's what we are using. Additional --

3 progress, and this is sort of what Roger is 

4 talking about. These progress reports 

5 indicate there is no personnel contaminations 

6 or inhalations. Airborne activity containment 

7 does not exceed normal background levels. We 

8 have found no bioassay data, as we mentioned, 

9 although there is indication that some 

10 bioassay was performed for a period of one 

11 week for some people working around the 

12 reactor with no positive results for tritium 

13 or beta activity. By all accounts for the 

14 workers that we interviewed, and some of them 

15 I believe were health physicists working on 

16 the project, it was characterized as a fairly 

17 clean operation which is what you would expect 

18 for a closed system like this. There was 

19 evidence of a couple of incidents that 

20 occurred at the facility. First one listed 

21 here is a soot collection bag for the waste 

22 fire boiler system. They would burn the 
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1 organic material and some pretty good 

2 filtration controls and such. But apparently 

3 the soot from the filter housing spread around 

4 resulting in about less than 400 dpm per 100 

5 square centimeters contamination which is not 

6 very much contamination. And a monthly report 

7 indicated that there was no detectable 

8 contamination or inhalations though the 

9 contamination apparently did spread and they 

10 have no indication of any internal exposures.

11 The second incident that was 

12 reported was a leak in a pipe on the main 

13 coolant pump. But as I mentioned the coolant 

14 immediately solidified as it came out. They 

15 scraped it up and cleaned it up. So external 

16 exposure sources: obviously photon, beta, and 

17 neutron, when the reactor was operating, 

18 neutron, for sure, and diagnostic x-rays. So 

19 we do have these AEC summary reports that Dr. 

20 Poston alluded to that, from start of 

21 operations in '63 through '68, in one of the 

22 claimant's files we did have some summary 
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1 records from '63. We also have the monthly, 

2 quarterly, semi-annual reports, and we looked 

3 at these reports, and the AEC reports agreed 

4 with available documentation. Here's what we 

5 have here, '63 through '69 and these are 

6 binned according to number monitored, number 

7 identified with zero to one rem and number, 

8 one to two rem. You can see everybody was 

9 less-than-one-rem up until 1967, and there was 

10 one individual with two rem cumulative dose in 

11 1967. So the concept here for assigning 

12 external dose during the operational period 

13 was to assign everyone one rem for these years 

14 and even though I believe the '67 was a 

15 partial year, we would assign anyone working 

16 in '67 two rem. That's -- we believe that's 

17 bounding based on the data we have. 

18 There's just some pictures of the 

19 personal air lock, remote fuel handling, 

20 control room. 

21 Okay. We talked about this 

22 briefly but, internal dose we'd assign the MPC 
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1 for the entire operational period of cobalt2 60, and then based on each group of those 

3 other impurities we would pick the nuclide 

4 that gave the highest dose to the organ that 

5 developed cancer. There are certain metabolic 

6 things that you have to consider so you pick 

7 the one -- you ratio them all and then find 

8 the one that had the highest and assign that. 

9 For the external dose, I mentioned 

10 we are going to use the bounding dose from the 

11 AEC summary reports: one rem annually for all 

12 years, two rem in '66. The beta dose is a 

13 little tricky. We had some surveys that 

14 showed some ratios, and then we also did some 

15 modeling based on VARSKIN with the nuclide mix 

16 that was out there. It would have been to 

17 apply beta to gamma ratio of 40 to 1 to 5 to 

18 1, based on the cancer. I think it was skin 

19 cancer. Help me out here, guys. I think skin 

20 cancer would be 40 to 1. That can't be right. 

21 It's because it was an extremity cancer or a 

22 dose to the other parts of the body. So an 
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1 extremity dose, I believe would be 40 to 1 

2 beta to gamma ratio and 5 to 1 for other 

3 locations.

4 MR. HALSEY: If I could jump in. 

5 The 40 to 1 is for direct contact.

6 DR. NETON: Okay.

7 MR. KATZ: Who is that speaking, 

8 sorry?

9 MR. HALSEY: Sorry, this is Roger 

10 Halsey.

11 MR. KATZ: Thank you. 

12 MR. HALSEY: The 40 to 1 is for 

13 anything with direct contact to the skin and 

14 20 to 1 for any areas that wouldn't have 

15 direct contact such as contamination on 

16 clothing, I would expect.

17 DR. NETON: Okay. Then the 

18 neutron exposure, we had some survey data, 

19 some parallel survey data of gamma and photons 

20 and the highest ratio that we could come up 

21 with was 1 to 10 neutron to photon ratio. So 

22 we would assume essentially ten percent of the 
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1 -- any of the external dose for the photons 

2 would receive ten percent neutron exposure. 

3 Ten percent of that would be added to the 

4 dose.

5 DR. MAURO: And what measurements 

6 were made to give you that?

7 DR. NETON: These were made in the 

8 plant shortly after operations.

9 DR. MAURO: So there are paired 

10 measurements -- they use a long counter?

11 DR. NETON: Yes.

12 DR. MAURO: And are coupled by 

13 survey year? So basically you have coupled 

14 measurements with the long counter which is 

15 good. Okay, so you had -- what are the things 

16 -- we will get into -- ours is like the book 

17 and some of that data, so where it was taken 

18 and how comprehensive it was.

19 DR. NETON: And the medical dose 

20 we will use TIB-0006 for reconstruction of 

21 occupational diagnostic -- that's it in a 

22 nutshell. I mean it's -- we believe it's 
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1 feasible to reconstruct these doses from '62 

2 to '66 and '66 onward period is already an 

3 SEC. It is pretty straightforward. We've got 

4 a couple of dose -- sample dose 

5 reconstruction. I don't know if it is 

6 instructive or not, but I'll just go through. 

7 Here's a BCC of the temple for a worker who 

8 was born in 1940. So this was skin cancer. 

9 He worked from '63 to '66, the three-year 

10 period that we are reconstructing. We would 

11 end up assigning an external dose of about --

12 external 22 rem -- about 600 millirem 

13 internal, some medical, with a total dose of 

14 23.2 rem which will result in this particular 

15 example of a PoC 62 percent which we 

16 compensated for.

17 DR. MAURO: So the beta dose in 

18 this case, this is something to the face, you 

19 would have used the one-rem-per-year times 

20 five to get the beta dose to the skin?

21 DR. NETON: I'm not sure. I 

22 believe that's the case. Whatever we had 
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1 written in the ER. I have not -- that would 

2 make sense. It would probably be five. It 

3 really doesn't matter because the case is 

4 already over 50 percent.

5 DR. MAURO: I just wanted to --

6 the mechanics.

7 DR. NETON: Yes.

8 DR. BEHLING: Jim, this is Hans 

9 Behling. I would like to make a comment with 

10 regard to the issue of using cobalt as your 

11 reference radionuclide. Earlier somebody on -

12 - at the meeting raised a question of what was 

13 the actual concentration MPC value for cobalt, 

14 and I believe NIOSH used nine times ten to the 

15 minus nine microcuries per mL and on that 

16 basis you concluded that since there were no 

17 alarms that were set off you can reasonably 

18 conclude a limiting or bounding value.

19 One of the things that I did look 

20 at in reviewing the ER was the issue of 

21 carbon-14 and when you realize that there was 

22 probably quite a quantity of C-14 produced if 
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1 you look at page 21 of the ER, it talks about 

2 the degasification system and the other 

3 systems that were obviously there to remove 

4 the C-14. And when you look at Appendix B of 

5 10 CFR 20 you realize for C-14 the MPC value 

6 goes to, let's see, four times ten to the 

7 minus six, which is 444 times the value for 

8 cobalt-60. Also the MPC value for CO2, in 

9 other words carbon-14 in the form of carbon 

10 dioxide, is five times ten to the minus four 

11 so it's about 4,000 times higher. Since you 

12 cannot measure, obviously, C-14 on the area 

13 monitors, how do you deal with that and you 

14 knew very well that there had to have been a 

15 significant release of C-14. 

16 DR. NETON: Good question. 

17 Anybody on the other end, from our end, can 

18 answer that? 

19 MR. POTTER: This is Gene Potter. 

20 We used the value of the MPC for cobalt-60 as 

21 Jim has described, and then we ratio for 

22 tritium and carbon-14 the amount, in the case 
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1 of carbon-14 the amount of the carbon-14 from 

2 that soot sample.

3 DR. BEHLING: Yes, and I'm fully 

4 aware of that, and there's a serious problem 

5 in making that assumption because the C-14 

6 would have probably been volatile and would 

7 not have remained there. So that the use of 

8 that residual soot material is probably not a 

9 very credible source for identifying the 

10 ratios. Obviously when you deal with highly 

11 volatile materials and you are dealing with a 

12 sample that you are talking about, you are 

13 probably not going to get a very accurate 

14 relationship between the various 

15 radionuclides. 

16 DR. MAURO: In fact the one area -

17 - well, I knew -- the one area where -- I 

18 understand exactly what you did. To get --

19 since you don't have measurements of carbon-14 

20 and tritium in the air, you took advantage of 

21 the ratio of the particular radionuclides in 

22 the coolant and knowledge of the tritium and 
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1 carbon-14 in the coolant. So you have a mix, 

2 understanding of the mix in the coolant. Now 

3 you -- and you also have what's airborne, 

4 particulates. Our understanding is you took 

5 advantage of that ratio, and it's sort of the 

6 same, but the reality is what I think would 

7 happen is there's -- it was highly more likely 

8 that carbon-14 and tritium are going to become 

9 airborne than any of the particulates. So the 

10 ratio that you see in the coolant -- is going 

11 to be quite a bit different than the ratio you 

12 are going to see in the air. In fact the 

13 expectation would be what's in the air for 

14 carbon-14 tritium would be much higher 

15 relative to the particulates as compared. So 

16 I think that approach -- it's just that 

17 approach -- it doesn't work. I'm not quite 

18 sure how to skin that cat because I don't 

19 think those ratios will hold for some of the 

20 reasons Hans just mentioned. In fact that's 

21 the only --

22 DR. NETON: -- I was not aware 
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1 that you guys had actually even reviewed this.

2 DR. MAURO: We just read it. We 

3 were asked to just read it. We didn't do 

4 anything else but read it and think about what 

5 we read.

6 DR. BEHLING: The other thing I 

7 want to address and maybe it's -- might be out 

8 of context here but the issue of nitrogen-16. 

9 There was a reference on page 31 of the 

10 report that talked about the likelihood that 

11 there was air inleakage into the cooling 

12 system because of the presence of argon-41. 

13 That being the case, you also have the risk of 

14 inleakage of air that involves the production 

15 of N-16 and that is a very, very short-lived 

16 but very powerful gamma emitter and that is 

17 something you always deal with a BWR reactor, 

18 and I was wondering if in fact that could have 

19 also been a serious exposure potential for 

20 external radiation exposure during the time of 

21 operation, and that was not addressed.

22 DR. NETON: Well we have summary 
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1 badge results unless you are suggesting that 

2 N-16 is so high these badges wouldn't have 

3 picked it up. I mean we are using the summary 

4 reports for the workers that were badged. It 

5 appears to us that almost all the workers were 

6 badged. 

7 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well, based on 

8 what I read, this is not a like a BWR, Hans.

9 DR. BEHLING: I know that, but 

10 there was air inleakage into the coolant, and 

11 therefore -- 

12 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Yes, but the 

13 steam was forded under the river to the other 

14 side to the steam plant. So the half-life, N15 16 only plays a big role when you are sending 

16 it from the reactor to the turbine directly.

17 DR. BEHLING: Yes, it's about 

18 seven seconds is the half-life, but I know in 

19 a BWR you still see a fairly high exposure 

20 rate in the turbine deck based on the flow of 

21 steam and -- that carries the nitrogen-16, so 

22 even for -- 
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1 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Yes, no question 

2 about that.

3 DR. BEHLING: I didn't hear the 

4 last comment.

5 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I just said no 

6 question that that's true in a BWR, but I'm 

7 not sure this is the same as a BWR with a 

8 seven second half-life and the transit time of 

9 the steam from the reactor on one side of the 

10 river to the power plant on the other side of 

11 the river. I don't know what that time is.

12 DR. BEHLING: Well steam travels 

13 pretty quickly in those systems.

14 DR. MAURO: So the concern is that 

15 there might have been at the turbine which is 

16 some distance from the -- the steam was sent 

17 under the river, and that is where the turbine 

18 was. The turbine wasn't on the plant side, it 

19 was someplace else. If you are going to get a 

20 nitrogen-16 it would be on the turbine shine.

21 DR. NETON: But I'm still not --

22 (Simultaneous speaking.)
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1 DR. MAURO: -- workers, right.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: It won't affect 

3 the workers in the plant.

4 DR. MAURO: I hear what you are 

5 saying, John, okay. I don't know whether we 

6 should be -- we have -- like I said, I don't 

7 know where you want to go from here, but we 

8 have read it and we have some notes in some of 

9 the places that we would like to talk about.

10 DR. NETON: Well we're -- that's 

11 pretty much --

12 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Jim is finished.

13 DR. NETON: Then it does state, 

14 the review of the Site Profile, there really -

15 - 

16 CHAIRMAN POSTON: There isn't a 

17 Site Profile.

18 DR. MAURO: No, it's just ER.

19 DR. NETON: -- an ER, all we --

20 CHAIRMAN POSTON: That was a 

21 mistake on my part.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes, we thought there 
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1 -- we were looking --

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I was assuming 

3 there was a Site Profile.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: With just five 

5 claims, oftentimes we won't write a Site 

6 Profile. We will just write the basis of the 

7 claim.

8 CHAIRMAN POSTON: That was a 

9 mistake on my part.

10 DR. MAURO: It was a very thorough 

11 ER. It's a Site Profile. Well it is really 

12 exposure matrix.

13 DR. NETON: It's pretty simple.

14 DR. BEHLING: Can I also make 

15 another comment because of the fact that I 

16 think the opening statement by Jim Neton 

17 talked about the difference between

18 operational, post-operational and the 

19 difference of potential exposures of closed 

20 systems versus open systems. But you know 

21 when I look at the ER and on page 16 you have 

22 a table 5-1, a summary of operational period 
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1 history and it looks like there was a lot of 

2 problems with this demonstration reactor that 

3 mandated the opening of the systems for 

4 exchanging filters, rearranging fuel and et 

5 cetera, et cetera. that started basically in 

6 May of 1964 and continued throughout the 

7 period of 1966.

8 So we are not dealing with a clean 

9 machine here that was essentially in a perfect 

10 steady state of operation. They had serious 

11 breakdowns, and there was a continuous need to 

12 rearrange fuel and exchange filters and 

13 concern themselves with various problems that 

14 they encountered. That's to be expected when 

15 you deal with a demonstration reactor, one of 

16 kind. So I'm not totally in agreement with 

17 the assumption that during the period of 

18 operation we are dealing with a closed system. 

19 They have to go in there repeatedly as 

20 indicated in table 5-1.

21 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well it's 

22 unclear to me because you certainly can -- the 
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1 reactor was designed to be refueled while it 

2 was operating so you are not opening the 

3 system, but I'm not sure about the filters. I 

4 couldn't figure that out based on the 

5 information that was presented in the report. 

6 So you may be right on the filters. You may 

7 not be right on the movement of the fuel. 

8 DR. MAURO: John, I think both you 

9 and Hans have pointed out the area that -- is 

10 where are the vulnerabilities. We understand 

11 the rationale except for this business of the 

12 ratios that I talked about earlier. That's 

13 one area where we think that there could be a 

14 problem. And not that those doses were 

15 necessarily high, but that way of coming at 

16 the problem, I don't think will work. But 

17 this idea of opening up, in effect what we 

18 have, it boils down to something pretty simple 

19 if you are thinking in the terms of internal. 

20 What we have here sounds like plenty of air -

21 - CAM, continuous air monitors plus effluent 

22 monitors would show that at no time do the 
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1 alarms go off and they're always below the 

2 MPCs, maybe well below the MPCs. Now, but the 

3 -- of course, that means wherever those 

4 monitors are, that's what you are seeing. 

5 That coupled up with information on what was 

6 in the primary coolant.

7 Apparently there were two pieces 

8 of information that were very important. One 

9 is that there was a failed fuel detector that 

10 determined was there any failed fuel. And the 

11 answer was no. And the fact the gamma 

12 spectrometry of the coolant itself did not 

13 show any cesium-137, did not show any iodine14 131, I don't believe. And so you only saw the 

15 things that might come from tramp uranium, 

16 that might come from activation products, 

17 corrosion products.

18 So there is a lot of weight of 

19 evidence there that yes it looks like that's 

20 the mix of radionuclides that were observed in 

21 the gamma spectroscopic analysis of the 

22 coolant is the -- are the radionuclides of 
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1 interest, separate from the tritium and 

2 carbon-14. That being the case, okay, then 

3 you say all right, I think we know what we are 

4 dealing with. And we also feel confident that 

5 whatever might have escaped by way of short 

6 lived fission products and activation 

7 products, they certainly didn't result in 

8 airborne levels at the locations of the 

9 continuous air monitors and the effluent 

10 monitors that exceeded the MPCs.

11 So we are walking along hand with 

12 you hand in hand now and we are fine. But 

13 then we have what I am visualizing this 

14 opening up, and you mentioned the filters. 

15 There is a lot of filter surveys, maintenance 

16 work. I'm not even sure what these filters 

17 are. Maybe it is coolant filters, to pull out 

18 these little chunks of wax, and all of a 

19 sudden now we have a situation. I'm talking 

20 about this in terms of softness, where you 

21 might be soft. You've got a guy doing 

22 maintenance inside this -- next to this 
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1 component. What the airborne levels might be 

2 there might be substantially different than 

3 what the airborne levels are where the 

4 continuous air monitor is. And it would 

5 really be great if we had some bioassay 

6 samples for the maintenance workers that were 

7 involved in those activities. That would nail 

8 it.

9 I know that there were some 

10 bioassay measurements taken, and one of the 

11 things you look for is basically you come at 

12 it with a line of argument that is basically a 

13 couple of dimensions. This all hangs on the 

14 continuous air monitor, very important, and 

15 the MPC issue. And the fact that you assigned 

16 an MPC of one the way you described it, 

17 certainly claimant favorable given that those 

18 readings from the continuous air monitors 

19 represent the concentration of radionuclides 

20 that workers experienced.

21 And the only question I have is 

22 some of the workers were at places doing 
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1 certain jobs, especially the maintenance 

2 people when the reactor was down, and they 

3 were doing these various in vessel filters, 

4 fuel elements for examination. So when you 

5 start doing things like that, it is pretty 

6 intrusive. Now you said something before that 

7 all of that was done remotely. 

8 DR. NETON: Well no.

9 DR. MAURO: No?

10 DR. NETON: Fuel handling.

11 DR. MAURO: Okay.

12 DR. NETON: I don't know about 

13 these other activities.

14 DR. MAURO: Other activities.

15 DR. NETON: My only thought on 

16 that is we are assigning the MPC, which is 

17 effectively a time-weighted average. So if 

18 you work there 2,000 hours you are going to 

19 get 2,000 MPC hours.

20 DR. MAURO: Right.

21 DR. NETON: No one believes that 

22 the alarms were just below the MPC for every 
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1 work hour. And then the question is, what is 

2 the plausibility of those open filter service 

3 issues? What is the plausibility of some much 

4 higher concentration and what period of time?

5 DR. MAURO: Right, I agree. I'm 

6 not saying that -- we didn't say where would 

7 the line of attack you've just taken have some 

8 softness to it.

9 DR. NETON: And frankly I wasn't 

10 prepared to argue.

11 DR. MAURO: No I'm not even 

12 arguing. I'm just saying our mandate was very 

13 limited. Ted said, John just read it so that 

14 when you come to the meeting you can at least 

15 give your initial impressions on where you are 

16 strong, where you are weak. The other area 

17 that I would like to hear a little bit about, 

18 the neutron measurements are very important. 

19 They basically said there was -- I think it 

20 was 0.5 mR per hour was the most that was 

21 measured. And on the basis of that, developed 

22 your neutron to photon ratio, which is ten 
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1 percent. And it wouldn't be a bad idea to go 

2 look at that data. I'm saying that -- what 

3 are some of the things, we didn't look into 

4 the site query database, the Site Research 

5 Database. We didn't do any interviews. We 

6 didn't do any data capture. We simply read 

7 this report and made some notes.

8 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Why would you 

9 expect a neutron dose to be even important? I 

10 mean in a typical reactor, even in a PWR, you 

11 make entries into the containment but the 

12 doses are so small, so low you can't measure 

13 and so you actually use a time calculation to 

14 assign doses for that. So why would you make 

15 -- why would you assume that it plays a huge 

16 role?

17 DR. MAURO: Well, when I was 

18 involved in the review of the health physics 

19 programs they designed as sort of a survey 

20 program for commercial nuclear power plants, 

21 one of the big concerns always was neutrons 

22 treatment. Is the design such that there is 
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1 assurance that there is no way in which 

2 neutrons are going to -- so you want to lock 

3 it out. There were occasions where neutron 

4 streaming became an issue with something. 

5 They would design around it. And here we have 

6 an experimental reactor.

7 CHAIRMAN POSTON: But when you 

8 talk about neutron streaming you are talking 

9 about inside the containment.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, yes.

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: You are not 

12 talking about outside the containment.

13 DR. MAURO: Right.

14 CHAIRMAN POSTON: So do we have 

15 any evidence that during operations there was 

16 anybody inside the containment?

17 DR. MAURO: Good question. 

18 CHAIRMAN POSTON: And if there's 

19 nobody inside the containment then neutrons go 

20 away.

21 DR. MAURO: I would agree with 

22 that. When I read it, like I said, when I 
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1 read it I said I'd like to see the results, 

2 where the measurements were taken and 

3 certainly it would be, the measurements would 

4 be inside containment in locations based on 

5 the design where the possibility exists of 

6 streaming.

7 CHAIRMAN POSTON: That's what 

8 separates a PWR from a BWR. They don't make 

9 entries in the BWR so there is no neutron 

10 dose. 

11 DR. MAURO: I'm trying to give 

12 just a sense --

13 CHAIRMAN POSTON: No I 

14 understand. I'm just asking to understand 

15 exactly.

16 DR. MAURO: Now if there was no 

17 one entering containment --

18 DR. NETON: I think that may be 

19 true but I would have to verify that. 

20 CHAIRMAN POSTON: And they also 

21 raised the issue of the neutron calibration 

22 source and that's a no, never mind as far as 
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1 I'm concerned.

2 DR. MAURO: I like the use of a 

3 long counter and the way in which you're going 

4 to check it. The question is okay, let's take 

5 a look. See normally when we do a review of 

6 this type, we look at the data. In other 

7 words, what we have here is a summary of the 

8 data and we look at the data. And the places 

9 where I walk away, softness, like we did 

10 yesterday, where would I want to sniff around 

11 a little deeper?

12 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Sure, I 

13 understand. I have the same concerns.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes, yes. So 

15 internal, and Hans has more to say. Hans read 

16 it. I read it. We actually had one of our 

17 nuclear engineers read it, but he's not 

18 available to us today, and to get our 

19 perspectives on it. I walk away with a couple 

20 of issues. One is the tritium to carbon-14 

21 ratio, that would be my number one concern, as 

22 being a technical flaw in the strategy. The 
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1 other is there are some bioassay data. I sure 

2 would like to go capture that data and confirm 

3 that, yes, everything -- continuous air 

4 monitoring certainly provides a very 

5 compelling argument that there was very 

6 airborne activity and some bioassay data from 

7 some of the workers that might have been 

8 involved in this maintenance would really put 

9 that one to bed, if that data were there. 

10 That would be something I would sort of probe 

11 for. And that would be the final word. And 

12 again, these questions on neutron measurements 

13 that were taken and convince myself that there 

14 were no surprises. And I was thinking that 

15 being an organically cooled and moderated, I 

16 guess, reactor, probably even offers even more 

17 neutron shielding. So that's probably a plus 

18 compared to a light water reactor.

19 MR. HALSEY: This is Roger Halsey 

20 if I could jump in on the neutron question.

21 DR. MAURO: Sure.

22 MR. HALSEY: In 1964 they did a 
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1 full survey of the plant running at full power 

2 for neutrons. Apparently using a long 

3 counter, they mentioned it specifically.

4 DR. MAURO: Yes.

5 MR. HALSEY: And in the report, 

6 there is the table, and the table essentially 

7 shows blank for everything except for two 

8 areas. And in those two areas where large 

9 pipes were coming out of the thing, the actual 

10 steam pipes I believe, they have less than 0.5 

11 millirem per hour neutrons. So that's what we 

12 used.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes and I read the 

14 point -- less than 0.5 in the report. What I 

15 was saying is that one of the things I would 

16 like to look at, is to go look at that data. 

17 Where was it collected? How much of it did 

18 you have? But there's evidence that no one 

19 was in those areas during operation. Even 

20 that is not an issue and that's not very much.

21 MR. HALSEY: Well and the other 

22 piece of information we have is during one of 
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1 the interviews, and I believe it was one of 

2 the health physics people, that there were 

3 never any neutrons. They did have a meter. 

4 They did survey and they never found anything. 

5 But this report -- there isn't anymore data 

6 than the summary table. It is the same 

7 problem we have with all of this. We are 

8 dealing with summary data it was reported to 

9 AEC and we are looking at the results not the 

10 details that went into it.

11 DR. MAURO: What I am trying to 

12 say is normally what we would do is we 

13 actually go and go look at the individual film 

14 badge readings if the film badge records are 

15 there and take a look at who was monitored, 

16 the amount of data, how the monitoring was 

17 done. Get into the fine structure. But 

18 unfortunately we don't have that. We have the 

19 summary level and captured it and demonstrated 

20 that it is unlikely that anybody got more than 

21 the data show. No one got more than one rem 

22 per year except for a couple of people.
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1 DR. NETON: One person in the last 

2 --

3 DR. MAURO: And that's -- and 

4 basically you are hanging your hat on -- are 

5 we going to assign one or two rem per year 

6 based on the summary level data? It is hard 

7 to say there is anything wrong with that. It 

8 seems to be based on the data you have. Now 

9 of course you are hanging your hat on that, 

10 it's possible that there might have been some 

11 workers that were unmonitored, that could have 

12 gotten higher exposures. We don't know. 

13 These are the kinds of things we would do in 

14 follow up.

15 MR. HALSEY: Also, we assume that 

16 that summary level data for the film badges 

17 did include the neutron components but we 

18 don't really know. That's why we added a 

19 ratio independently of that data.

20 DR. MAURO: Oh, the ratio you use 

21 is ten percent. So in other words you added 

22 in -- so the one rem is the total whole body 
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1 dose, neutron plus photon? I didn't follow 

2 you.

3 DR. NETON: It could have been, we 

4 don't know.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: We don't know what 

6 -- theoretically, they would have reported as 

7 the total body dose.

8 DR. MAURO: In other words, when 

9 you reconstruct a person's dose.

10 DR. NETON: We assume it was only 

11 gamma.

12 DR. MAURO: And then you add in 

13 the ten percent?

14 DR. NETON: It could have been 

15 already.

16 DR. MAURO: You've interpreted the 

17 data in a claimant favorable way.

18 CHAIRMAN POSTON: And I understand 

19 that Jim said that they requested the data 

20 from Landauer so if we do get it then we have 

21 the individuals. But the summary report was 

22 all that was required in those days.
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1 DR. MAURO: I understand that and 

2 it is compelling.

3 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: Especially if 

5 everybody was monitored.

6 DR. BEHLING: Does anyone have the 

7 answer to the following question? I'm looking 

8 at table 6-1 and 6-3 and they identify by year 

9 the numbers of people who were monitored and 

10 their doses. It seems like the numbers of 

11 people are almost a constant during the 

12 operational and post-operational period. And 

13 has anyone looked at these individuals and 

14 said to what extent were the people who were 

15 monitored during the operational period, or at 

16 least a fraction of those people were also 

17 there during the post-operational period? In 

18 which case the SEC time frame wouldn't matter 

19 if in fact they were almost largely the 

20 identical population of workers post and pre 

21 or post-operational and operational. Does 

22 anyone have an answer to that question?
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1 MR. HALSEY: All we have is the 

2 summary -- this is Roger Halsey again. All we 

3 have is the summary data and we look at the 

4 very first column there that says number 

5 identified as not monitored is zero. 

6 DR. BEHLING: Yes.

7 MR. HALSEY: And then we have a 

8 total number and that's all we have. We have 

9 no way of relating that to individuals.

10 DR. BEHLING: So you don't realize 

11 or you don't know -- have any ideas as to 

12 whether or not a large number of people who 

13 were there during the operational period 

14 continued to work there in the post15 operational period?

16 MR. HALSEY: Just in the general 

17 terms that the, city employees were the people 

18 that disassembled the plant. We have that 

19 kind of language in the reports. But no, as 

20 to which individuals were there and how much 

21 turnover they had, we have no idea. 

22 DR. BEHLING: Okay. 
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1 DR. MAURO: I've got a question 

2 that's not directly relevant but why is this 

3 system -- this is a commercial -- the fuel 

4 wasn't used for weapons. It was used to make 

5 electricity in Ohio. How come this -- it is 

6 another commercial nuclear power plant.

7 DR. NETON: Well, it was a 

8 demonstration project. I'm not sure why --

9 DR. MAURO: For some reason they 

10 put it in. I didn't see any connection 

11 between that.

12 DR. NETON: I really don't have 

13 an answer for that.

14 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Except I'm sure 

15 the money came from AEC.

16 DR. MAURO: I'm sure it did.

17 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Instead of 

18 through a contractor. 

19 DR. MAURO: Of course that is 

20 what is given to us and that's what we've got. 

21 Let me see what else I have here. There 

22 really isn't much.
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1 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I'm a little bit 

2 concerned about the carbon-14 issue because it 

3 is extremely difficult to monitor for carbon4 14. If you have a real nice way to monitor 

5 around a nuclear power plant for carbon-14 you 

6 can make a lot of money, John.

7 DR. BEHLING: That's exactly what, 

8 when I was at Three Mile Island for years that 

9 was a recurrent problem. No way can you 

10 measure what goes out of the facility because 

11 the stack monitors cannot pick up C-14.

12 CHAIRMAN POSTON: So, I mean it's 

13 certain a question but it's not one that has 

14 an answer. 

15 DR. NETON: I was thinking this 

16 was -- there's another plant like this that 

17 had been built. Anybody on the phone that can 

18 help me out with this? Did Atomics 

19 International actually develop and build 

20 another similar facility?

21 MR. POTTER: This is Gene Potter. 

22 Yes there was a similar facility at Idaho.
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1 DR. NETON: Right, that's what I 

2 thought. And to the extent that this carbon3 14 tritium problem existed there may be some 

4 information there that could, I understand 

5 that it would be surrogate data but is it or 

6 is it not a real problem? I don't know. I

7 mean I am just throwing that out. That may be 

8 something that we would want to look into, to 

9 shore up that piece of the internal dose 

10 issue. Because I understand what you are 

11 saying, the release rate of the carbon-14 and 

12 the tritium is not necessarily parallel to 

13 that of particulates. So that may be 

14 something we could explore.

15 DR. BEHLING: But it's likely 

16 that this was, unless there is a system that 

17 also used the organic coolant, the source-term 

18 for C-14 is obviously used.

19 DR. NETON: I think it was an 

20 organically cooled power plant or reactor. 

21 DR. BEHLING: Yes.

22 DR. NETON: There was another one 
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1 that was built in Idaho as a demonstration 

2 project. I don't think they went and dug a 

3 whole in the ground in Ohio and said let's try 

4 it. They tried it like in Idaho first. 

5 CHAIRMAN POSTON: That was the 

6 name of this Idaho site at one time, reactor 

7 testing station.

8 DR. NETON: Right. So I mean 

9 that's the only thing off the top of my head 

10 right now that I can offer that we would 

11 certainly be willing to look into. Because I 

12 do agree that it's unclear.

13 CHAIRMAN POSTON: My blush -- I 

14 re-read this on the airplane coming up and my 

15 take on this, there may be some, as John 

16 called them, soft areas, but what you are 

17 proposing seems to be fairly claimant 

18 favorable. You are assuming the MPC, 2000 

19 hours per year, that kind of stuff and maximum 

20 dose because you don't know what is really the 

21 dose to each individual. You take the high 

22 end of the category in which they were 
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1 reported. That seems to be claimant favorable 

2 also.

3 DR. BEHLING: Well, except that 

4 the MPC for carbon is especially if it's CO2 

5 carbon is about 4,000 times higher than it is 

6 for cobalt-60 and of course we don't have any 

7 measurements for that. That is the limiting 

8 factor here.

9 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well you are 

10 going to have to give me a chemistry lesson to 

11 see how you are going to get from organic to 

12 CO2.

13 DR. BEHLING: Well you are 

14 starting out with an organic coolant and so --

15 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I understand 

16 that.

17 DR. MAURO: Well, like I said, 

18 you know when you read one of these, you say 

19 to yourself and you think about it, you know. 

20 How are you going to get -- is it possible 

21 that the airborne exposure to CO2, carbon-14, 

22 or other forms that it might take, I don't 
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1 know, and tritium, could be important. It may 

2 be just to demonstrate that it could not be 

3 important by some way or try to get a handle 

4 on what the levels might have been. 

5 Unfortunately I think you are right. This is 

6 a tough nut to crack and the ratio approach to 

7 the coolant really isn't going to work very 

8 well. I'm not sure how you would come at 

9 that. No tritium samples at all. See you get 

10 tritium, you might be able to say okay the 

11 tritium is going to be indicative of -- well 

12 you have the tritium coming out. I think we 

13 showed this, a ratio from the tritium to 

14 carbon-14 in the coolant. That would be a 

15 little closer to home if there was some 

16 tritium measured. They do measure tritium.

17 DR. BEHLING: Yes, John there's 

18 no relationship between the production of 

19 tritium and C-14.

20 DR. MAURO: Okay. So in other 

21 words the degree to which they may partition 

22 out of the coolant when they opened up somehow 
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1 -- whatever the leakage might have been, the 

2 tritium -- how I'm thinking is, well the 

3 tritium has a certain tendency to become 

4 airborne and carbon-14 has a certain tendency 

5 to become airborne. If the argument could be 

6 made that the tritium has a greater potential 

7 to become airborne than the carbon-14, then 

8 you can say okay well somehow we can get a 

9 handle on what's airborne tritium and we know 

10 that since the tritium is even more volatile, 

11 let's say, than the carbon-14 then you could 

12 say we will use the ratio tritium to carbon-14 

13 in the coolant as a way to get a hook into it. 

14 I know that tritium is very often pulled. Do 

15 you see where I'm going? I'm trying to find a 

16 line on how to get a handle on that.

17 DR. NETON: I'm recalling now that 

18 I think we have one of the claimants, I think 

19 it was an Atomics International employee, who 

20 was pretty well monitored. We may have 

21 bioassay data on that person.

22 DR. MAURO: That might be your 
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1 hook.

2 DR. NETON: I need to go back. I 

3 was just looking through these before the 

4 meeting and there is one person that had some 

5 bioassay records that I recall. I don't know 

6 what it was for, whether it was tritium or 

7 not.

8 DR. MAURO: I remember reading 

9 that no one -- the people that were -- a 

10 statement was made that the people that were 

11 bioassayed no tritium was detected. That's 

12 important, I remember reading that. That is 

13 important because that might be your hook. 

14 You see, in other words you say, okay that 

15 means that, trying to come at the problem, you 

16 say, well that means the highest concentration 

17 could have been, is that concentration which 

18 would be just below the limits of detection. 

19 That will give you a way to say it was not 

20 likely that this guy could have been exposed 

21 to levels of tritium that are much higher than 

22 this. But of course the tritium has a 10-day 
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1 half-life. There are problems. Like I said, 

2 this is the softness and this is the one place 

3 where I guess I'm not too sure how to skin 

4 that cat.

5 DR. NETON: Well, all I can do is 

6 we can take it back and look at it. We are 

7 not going to solve it at this meeting.

8 MR. HALSEY: This is Roger Halsey 

9 again. This is kind of not my area so Gene 

10 correct me if I'm wrong. This is an organic 

11 material. The hydrogen and the carbons are 

12 pretty much traveling together when they are 

13 burned and released they are pretty much 

14 traveling together.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes. I've been 

16 thinking about it in a more classic sense, as 

17 tritiated water vapor, but maybe you are 

18 right. Maybe any tritium that did become 

19 airborne was the hydrogen associated with some 

20 carbon. I don't know. 

21 MR. POTTER: This is Gene Potter. 

22 There is also apparently a tritium source 
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1 from ternary fission that would have just been 

2 present in the coolant. I believe we have 

3 tritium levels in the fuel storage pool. This 

4 is sort of thing that one could use for 

5 tritium possibly knowing what the 

6 concentration of the water is.

7 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Yes, the 

8 tertiary fission is pretty low but that might 

9 be something you can hook onto.

10 DR. MAURO: If I recall tritium 

11 is produced both by fission and also 

12 activation, right, at least in light water 

13 reactors?

14 CHAIRMAN POSTON: In light water 

15 because you have lithium.

16 DR. MAURO: Because you have 

17 lithium, that's right.

18 DR. BEHLING: Yes, it's lithium 

19 hydroxide.

20 DR. MAURO: All right, okay. 

21 We're trying to find out where we can find 

22 some solace. It sounds like, you know, by and 
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1 large your argument is very strong. You see 

2 our reaction here. That's really all you are 

3 getting right now, our reaction.

4 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay. Bill.

5 MEMBER FIELD: Landauer, they are 

6 likely NTA detectors, wouldn't you think, in 

7 that time period?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it would 

9 be NTA in that time frame.

10 MEMBER FIELD: I would think 

11 getting that information is going to tell you 

12 a lot about other sources and as far as the 

13 bioassay it would be interesting to see what 

14 they show as far tritium. Now C-14 becoming 

15 airborne is that something you can see in the 

16 tritium or in the bioassay?

17 DR. BEHLING: No, I'm not even 

18 sure I know how you really check for C-14 in 

19 an accurate way. But in the case of this 

20 facility, I would assume that a sizeable 

21 fraction if not an overwhelming fraction would 

22 be in the form of CO2 because of the organic 
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1 component of the coolant and as John already 

2 mentioned, it would obviously be at least as 

3 quick to be removed as tritium in a form of 

4 water vapor because it is a gas. 

5 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well, I don't 

6 know about the radiolysis of this hydrocarbon. 

7 It seems to me is that's the key to what 

8 happens. We know what happens with water but 

9 I don't know what happens when you take a 

10 hydrocarbon like this and expose it to 

11 radiation how it breaks down exactly. And how 

12 it might recombine. 

13 DR. NETON: Well, there may be 

14 some studies out there, particularly for this 

15 application, because it is not very 

16 radiolytic.

17 MEMBER FIELD: They performed the 

18 gamma spec with the coolant, right? At least 

19 you know that much.

20 (Simultaneous speaking.)

21 DR. NETON: There may be some 

22 research papers out there that would help 
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1 developing this particular coolant material.

2 DR. MAURO: Well I mean I know how 

3 a lot of folks don't like models but in theory 

4 you have measurements of carbon-14 and tritium 

5 in the coolant. You have those numbers. 

6 Those measurements are made I guess in various 

7 -- whether it was coolant or whether it was 

8 some kind of crud or crust. So you have some 

9 numbers. Then you have to ask yourself a 

10 question. Okay, what fraction of the 

11 inventory that might have escaped and given 

12 this operation -- things like that don't 

13 happen all the time but it would require some 

14 kind of models and assumptions, I don't know 

15 what the partitions might be. Something like 

16 this, and put an upper bound on it. I don't 

17 know. 

18 DR. NETON: Again, we're going to 

19 have to go back and look at it. There's a 

20 couple of different ways to approach it. 

21 Looking at the research of the development of 

22 the coolant cell, looking at some of the 
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1 bioassay data they may have on one employee --

2 DR. MAURO: I think bioassay data. 

3 If you've got a number of employees.

4 DR. NETON: I think we might have 

5 one.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We've only got 

7 five claimants.

8 DR. NETON: There's only one 

9 claimant that's been denied.

10 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Well I've got a 

11 question. Going back to the fuel rods, the 

12 spent ones, the base in numbers, the tritium 

13 in that area wouldn't that be significantly 

14 higher than inside the containment dome. But 

15 I would assume the workers don't spend a large 

16 amount of time in the basin. I mean I'm not 

17 real familiar with it, but correct me if I'm 

18 wrong so those numbers would be much more 

19 elevated in the basins wouldn't they?

20 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well, yes I

21 think you are right. Because half-life of 

22 tritium is, I forget what it is, 12, 13?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Twelve or 13. I 

2 think it is 12 years.

3 CHAIRMAN POSTON: So it's not 

4 going to go away. But the other thing John 

5 and this is blue sky stuff but if you have 

6 high temperatures, tritium will just go 

7 through most anything like piping and so forth 

8 but I wouldn't expect carbon-14 to go. I'm 

9 going back to yours. If you can pick on the 

10 hydrogen on the tritium. 

11 DR. MAURO: Then the ratio holds.

12 CHAIRMAN POSTON: It has got to be 

13 an upper bound to the carbon-14 --

14 DR. MAURO: Yes. Somehow you can 

15 get it.

16 CHAIRMAN POSTON: It can't be 

17 more than that. It has got to be less than 

18 that.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes, exactly. The 

20 key is how are we going to try and get a 

21 handle on what that tritium might be.

22 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Anything else 
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1 then? Questions?

2 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: No, I just --

3 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Bill?

4 MEMBER FIELD: But don't you have 

5 a tritium monitor?

6 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Well I mean 

7 you would have two totally different exposure 

8 scenarios of tritium in the containment vessel 

9 versus in the cooling ponds.

10 DR. BEHLING: But how many of the 

11 other potential areas, for instance, the 

12 degasification system, purification systems 

13 that were basically separate from the reactor 

14 containment building itself, where there would 

15 have been source-terms for exposure?

16 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I don't know. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Same here, I 

18 don't know.

19 CHAIRMAN POSTON: All we've seen 

20 are the pictures. I don't know exactly where 

21 the gasification systems are. They are in the 

22 containment or they are in the auxiliary 
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1 building.

2 DR. BEHLING: Yes, I try to look 

3 and there's no indication here but it would 

4 appear that in all likelihood they are outside 

5 so they would be more accessible. So you 

6 don't have to go into the containment 

7 structure to be exposed potentially if these 

8 systems were the ones where these 

9 radionuclides would have been concentrated and 

10 potentially exposed in individuals who were 

11 there to maintain these systems.

12 DR. MAURO: Now, when these people 

13 develop new reactor technology and they come 

14 up with the tech specs for effluent monitoring 

15 and continuous air monitoring, they go back to 

16 the first principles and figure out what do we 

17 have to look for. Now certainly in a reactor 

18 people pull their samples through silica gel 

19 because they know that tritium could be a 

20 problem. Certain reactors are of course much 

21 more of a problem than others, like the 

22 Canadian reactors. Is it possible that Atomic 
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1 International did their homework, designed the 

2 facility, obviously came up with a recommended 

3 type of monitoring program which they 

4 obviously determined there was no need for the 

5 tritium. Now they may have a reason for that 

6 in their supporting documentation. But it is 

7 kind of strange. You have a reactor and you 

8 are not worried about tritium. That's of 

9 course an opposite being a light water 

10 reactor. Now whether or not -- and they may 

11 have an argument that says their work shows 

12 that there is no reason to believe.

13 DR. NETON: That's why I'm 

14 thinking this Idaho reactor, which is an 

15 experimental test reactor, might have had some 

16 of the data on it.

17 DR. MAURO: Yes. As you can see 

18 this is where we are sort of gravitating 

19 toward this one issue. Because the other 

20 issues seem like they are pretty well covered.

21 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Do we have 

22 access to their safety analysis reports and 
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1 all that stuff?

2 DR. NETON: There are some 

3 reports.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know does 

5 the -- ORAU Team might know what's on there. 

6 I don't know if we got their safety analysis.

7 DR. NETON: Their safeguard 

8 analysis or something. I have not looked at 

9 them.

10 DR. MAURO: They could have an 

11 accident analysis section. Where they 

12 postulate different -- 

13 DR. NETON: That's what I'm saying 

14 --

15 DR. MAURO: And in that they have 

16 to know if there's a tritium issue it will be 

17 there.

18 DR. NETON: We're going to have 

19 to go back and look through all the available 

20 documentation and see where we can shorten 

21 some.

22 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, I think the 
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1 point made though before is a point I was 

2 thinking about it last night when I read this 

3 and I know we don't have the breakdown about 

4 who worked when. But if everyone that worked 

5 in the periods covered or the people employed 

6 before, I think that would be very unlikely 

7 but I think it is possible. I don't think 

8 they have to proceed any further.

9 DR. NETON: No, that's not the 

10 case.

11 MEMBER FIELD: You know it's not 

12 the case?

13 DR. NETON: We have one claimant 

14 out of the five who was an Atomics 

15 International employee that there during the 

16 operational phase with nothing but exposure --

17 DR. MAURO: -- nothing but 

18 exposure.

19 DR. NETON: One person is affected 

20 by this right now.

21 MR. KATZ: One current claim.

22 DR. NETON: One current claim that 
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1 could be affected by this.

2 DR. BEHLING: Were there any 

3 claimants, Jim who were exclusively hired 

4 during the operational period only or are 

5 those five people the sum total of all claims 

6 independent of each period?

7 DR. NETON: Those are all five 

8 claims. We have five claims and four of the 

9 people worked -- well I don't know. I know 

10 that two were compensated before the SEC was 

11 awarded. So I don't know. I didn't look at 

12 that.

13 DR. BEHLING: I mean the question 

14 is if the SEC were to be extended throughout 

15 the operational period, if it makes no 

16 difference then it may very well be a decision 

17 that it will be prompted by expediency that 

18 says it's not going to change anything.

19 MR. KATZ: There's one individual 

20 Hans, at least.

21 DR. NETON: One claim that we have 

22 could be affected by this. 
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1 DR. BEHLING: Okay. 

2 DR. NETON: The person that worked 

3 a couple of years between `63 and `66, but I'm 

4 not sure that was even continuous work at the 

5 Piqua reactor. He was an Atomics 

6 International employee. He may have gone 

7 there and did some troubleshooting and then 

8 went back.

9 DR. MAURO: I want to flip around 

10 something a little bit Hans. Clearly your 

11 sense was during D&D it was so intrusive 

12 relative to it, even though during operations 

13 there was a lot of intrusive activity taking 

14 place. 

15 DR. NETON: Filter replacements, 

16 routine maintenance operations.

17 DR. MAURO: So, there is really a 

18 potential for exposure and the data during 

19 D&D did just non-existent also? So they were 

20 doing all this stuff and there is nothing. 

21 Nothing on tritium. Nothing on -- no 

22 measurements. 
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1 DR. NETON: Not that they didn't 

2 take it; we don't have it.

3 DR. MAURO: We don't have it. 

4 Because the only reason I say this is if there 

5 is some data, even though there wasn't enough 

6 for you folks to feel that you could dose 

7 reconstruction, but there might be some data, 

8 that will be -- inform us a little bit. Well 

9 it couldn't have been any worse than this 

10 during operation. I don't know. I mean 

11 that's all we have really. Hans do you have

12 anything else you wanted to bring up?

13 DR. BEHLING: No, but I guess the 

14 question is where do we go from here? As I 

15 said, we only reviewed the ER itself as 

16 opposed to the primary data that was used to 

17 develop the ER and I guess that's up for the 

18 discussion next year as to where we go from 

19 here.

20 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Any other 

21 questions? Bill?

22 MEMBER FIELD: I think we will 
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1 know a bit more when we get the dosimetry data 

2 and the bioassay data then we can use that 

3 data and make a decision where to go. At this 

4 point there is much more data to review. 

5 These are summary reports.

6 DR. NETON: It seems to me the 

7 ball is back in our court. We've heard some, 

8 at least verbal issues that have been raised 

9 and I think we agree that the tritium issues 

10 need to be investigated and provide some sort 

11 of a White Paper that would summarize what we 

12 have or don't have in our baseline data 

13 analysis. That's where we are at. I don't 

14 think we are going to solve it here in this 

15 meeting.

16 DR. MAURO: And any bioassay data 

17 that --

18 DR. NETON: Whatever we have. 

19 DR. MAURO: There may be only one 

20 individual. 

21 DR. NETON: At best, and I'm not 

22 even sure about that person. I recall 
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1 flipping through and it looked like there may 

2 have been something that looked like bioassay 

3 data.

4 DR. MAURO: The other area, 

5 besides the tritium, or the carbon-14, the 

6 other area that I felt a little uncomfortable 

7 with is if a person is doing hands-on 

8 maintenance in a compartment or component on a 

9 filter --

10 DR. NETON: I've got that, yes.

11 DR. MAURO: The degree to which 

12 that situation --

13 DR. NETON: Partitioning versus 

14 maintenance.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes. I think the 

16 neutron issue that I was thinking about, you 

17 have the long counter measurements. It sounds 

18 like there are a lot of measurements. We 

19 didn't look at that data but -- we do have a 

20 thorough survey during operation in the 

21 locations where there could be some streaming, 

22 some neutrons escaping, and nowhere is there 
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1 more than 0.5 mR per hour and on top of that 

2 you could argue no one was there anyway, 

3 physically located there for any period of 

4 time. That's a very compelling argument. 

5 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I hate to raise 

6 a red herring in all this but has there been 

7 discussion about separating this into two 

8 pieces, or you're so sure that everybody 

9 except for this one person is in the same 

10 group of people or there's too many, too few 

11 claimants to make that?

12 DR. NETON: I'm not sure we can 

13 separate it into two. 

14 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well I mean you 

15 have the operational period. You have the D&D 

16 period and so the exposure scenarios are 

17 totally different in those two and the 

18 question is we don't know whether those are 

19 the same people or not. You said during the 

20 D&D period there was one person from GA that 

21 wasn't in the operational.

22 DR. NETON: It was the other way 
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1 around.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: It was the other 

3 way around. One person who was in the 

4 operational. But do we know that the people 

5 continued on only or is that an assumption 

6 only because of the number didn't change?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, of the 

8 claimants, which are the only people we know 

9 about, we know when they worked. We know when 

10 they started and when they ended. 

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: So we don't know 

13 what the total potential number of people who 

14 worked at the Piqua reactor were either during 

15 operation or during remediation. We only know 

16 about the claimants.

17 DR. NETON: And there were at 

18 least 50 people monitored at one time. But we 

19 have already done that, right? I mean the 

20 people who worked between `66 and `69 if they 

21 have 250 days and the right cancer are already 

22 in the SEC. That's done
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

2 DR. NETON: I remember that part. 

3 Now we are just saying we have concluded at 

4 least by the last ER that between `63 and `66 

5 we think we've got enough to bound their 

6 exposures because this was the routine 

7 operating plant and mainly had some 

8 maintenance going on. So we didn't believe 

9 that it had any exposures above the MPC for 

10 cobalt-60 and ratio based on what's in the 

11 coolant. To me the only real outstanding 

12 issue would be the carbon-14 and tritium and 

13 maybe some sort of a bounding analysis of when 

14 you are doing maintenance operations. What is 

15 the difference between an air concentration in 

16 a CAM versus what happens if you open some --

17 DR. MAURO: I mean and that goes 

18 to the ICRP 103. Had ratios on the order of 

19 10 to 20.

20 DR. NETON: Right.

21 DR. MAURO: Between breathing zone 

22 and the general air. That may be one way to 
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1 put an adjustment factor -- because you don't 

2 know how much time the person was there then 

3 you really --

4 DR. NETON: I know. When you are 

5 changing out filters to me I'm trying to 

6 envision this is not an intrusive. You are in 

7 there but are you generating airborne? Do you 

8 know what I'm saying. Maybe the tritium and 

9 the carbon-14 which could be in a gas, I'll 

10 grant you an open system, but otherwise you 

11 got a liquid or solid system you are opening. 

12 I don't see a giant potential here for 

13 generating massive quantities.

14 DR. MAURO: We are pushing hard 

15 to find holes. We want to find them now. 

16 DR. NETON: This is the unique 

17 one. I mean this is very interesting.

18 MEMBER FIELD: If there is any 

19 contact with the coolant it is going to turn 

20 into a solid. I think that would be avoided. 

21 DR. NETON: You would think so

22 unless someone goes in there and starts, I 
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1 don't know. I am trying to think of 

2 scenarios, normally grinding, welding, cutting 

3 operations.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I think 

5 anything would evolve off the coolant would be 

6 the only exposure.

7 DR. MAURO: They do have a gas 

8 collection system. To think that there is no 

9 airborne radioactivity. There is an off gas 

10 collection system, effluent monitoring system.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but it runs 

12 probably for when it's running in temperature.

13 DR. MAURO: Right.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: So the vapor 

15 pressure kind of vanishes.

16 DR. MAURO: Right. So something 

17 is being produced during operation. Some 

18 gasses are generated inside the system.

19 CHAIRMAN POSTON: That's the O 

20 series or the K tanks?

21 DR. MAURO: Right and they 

22 collected that, monitoring and discharging it. 
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1 Probably holding it for a short period of time 

2 because they are all short lived, including 

3 the kryptons. Now somehow there are gasses 

4 being produced. Now shutdown. You shutdown, 

5 you go into some of the components. I don't 

6 know where you are going to do some 

7 maintenance. And the question becomes, does 

8 that create a potential for some of these 

9 airborne particulates, including the ones that 

10 -- now the continuous air monitors never 

11 alarmed. So you don't have any data. In 

12 other words they are all less than. It's not 

13 that you say we've got these many counts per 

14 minute. They are all less than.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: The reports we 

16 have indicate that they didn't find anything 

17 above MAC.

18 DR. MAURO: Right. They couldn't 

19 see anything. For all we know there was 

20 nothing in the air. But you are assuming we 

21 will are going to put it at the MPC because it 

22 can't be worse than that because no alarms 
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1 went off. That's very strong.

2 DR. NETON: You couldn't operate 

3 a reactor on an NRC license and the MPC for 

4 six years straight. I mean --

5 DR. MAURO: Oh yes. 

6 DR. NETON: I do consider that 

7 sort of time-weighted average. So you do have 

8 some excursions. 

9 We need to show some credible 

10 scenario that it wouldn't be above the MPC 

11 there and that kind of comes out in the wash. 

12 I don't know.

13 DR. MAURO: There's no doubt that 

14 as a health physicist, you say to yourself, 

15 no, there are no problems here. Based on what 

16 you wrote on the information provided. But I 

17 think we have an obligation to probe, poke and 

18 say, listen, where there might be some 

19 softness. And I think there are a few places 

20 that are soft that it may turn out, maybe they 

21 are soft but they're still important. There 

22 may not have been very much tritium airborne 
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1 or carbon-14 at all. But I think the way to 

2 what you are coming at it just doesn't hold 

3 up. 

4 DR. NETON: Yes, I agree. I mean 

5 even out of the analysis that I showed, the 

6 internal exposure produced 500 millirem based 

7 on our scenarios. I mean they are very low. 

8 I forget which organ that was that we 

9 reconstructed. I think most of the organs are 

10 going to be very low doses at the MPC.

11 MR. KATZ: There was one person 

12 from the public. We have Richard Decker on 

13 the line.

14 MR. DECKER: Yes.

15 MR. KATZ: Mr. Decker?

16 MR. DECKER: Yes. 

17 MR. KATZ: You have been listening 

18 to this conversation. We just want to know if 

19 you have any comments, thoughts that you'd 

20 like to share with the group.

21 MR. DECKER: Well you know, you 

22 gentlemen and ladies are highly educated in 
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1 this and talking levels above my comprehension 

2 and all of my information, bear with me, is 

3 from my step-dad that's passed away so it's 

4 third person. I just want to make sure the 

5 Board is aware that a lot of things happened 

6 that aren't written down, that aren't in 

7 concrete. For instance he was required to 

8 work part of the disassembly period without 

9 any kind of training or monitoring. And that 

10 was never reported and in your findings you 

11 even reported up in Port Jefferson that one of

12 the helpers was looking down into the vessel 

13 itself. Like, oh my god. And just wanted to 

14 make sure you keep that in mind that there was 

15 a lot of stuff that happened that wasn't 

16 written down. You are talking about those 

17 soft areas. Those are the soft areas that our 

18 ignorance during that time period of the 

19 dangers. They were pretty lax sometimes. 

20 MR. KATZ: Thank you Mr. Decker.

21 MR. DECKER: Thank you.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Could I ask, was 
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1 that Mr. Becker with a B as in boy or Decker 

2 with a D as in Dog.

3 MR. DECKER: Dog. 

4 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well, I guess we 

5 dropped all the way down to the discussion of 

6 the path forward. We've sort of got some 

7 notes here. Some of the things that I wrote 

8 down were the tritium carbon-14 issue if we 

9 can get a hook on it, John?

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, I don't know. 

11 Guys, you want to take a run at that?

12 (Simultaneous speaking.)

13 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Oh, I was just 

14 waking you up. No I was acknowledging the 

15 issue. A further look at the bioassay data. 

16 I think the neutron issue perhaps can be laid 

17 to rest but if we have any information about 

18 entry into containment and power or something 

19 like that, that they do in a PWR, that would 

20 be interesting. But I think that's a no, 

21 never mind and that would, as I think Bill 

22 pointed out if we have the Landauer data that 
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1 would put that issue to rest. So the Landauer 

2 data was the next thing I had on and that to 

3 me it is very important to have data. Those 

4 summaries are nice but they are not very 

5 useful although you know certainly your 

6 assumptions using them, it's hard to argue 

7 with that, but it would be better if we had 

8 the data.

9 MR. KATZ: On Landauer before we 

10 move beyond that there's this ongoing contract 

11 with Landauer. Is there time frame on that?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: We have closed our 

13 latest activity and we have a list of their 

14 customers that is not comprehensive. We need 

15 to open another activity to complete our list. 

16 I would have to go back and see. It would 

17 seem to me that it covers the years we are 

18 talking about but I don't know. So what would 

19 it tell us, would be do they have any records 

20 and we would then, if so we could request 

21 those additionally at some sort of procurement 

22 action. But they are usually pretty 
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1 reasonable about reproducing records.

2 DR. MAURO: How about Atomics 

3 International? They are still around? They 

4 have some people that were involved in the 

5 design of this facility and that the 

6 investigations that they did regarding various 

7 performance of the reactor and what kind 

8 testing?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: That's ETEC right?

10 DR. MAURO: Yes it is, ETEC.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: We can check. I 

12 would suspect we did some search at ETEC about 

13 records of this reactor because we found from 

14 their radiation safety officer, the person who 

15 gave us the exposure record for the AI 

16 employee who was there and has the bioassay, 

17 that came from ETEC. So, I would guess we 

18 made data capture there but we can check on 

19 that.

20 DR. MAURO: Because, I am saying, 

21 in terms of talking with people, you folks 

22 who designed this, did you look into the 
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1 production tritium and whether or not it was -

2 - they run these models you know. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Realistically I 

4 don't know that we will find anyone still at 

5 ETEC who designed -- who was there working 50 

6 years ago in the design of this reactor.

7 I don't think we will find anybody 

8 but we can check and the other clue is organic 

9 moderated reactor experiment. It is 

10 essentially the same reactor. What kind of 

11 information would you get from that. I would 

12 suspect it would have been at ETEC, I don't 

13 know if the capture would have done it. 

14 DR. NETON: I don't know if we 

15 did anything at Idaho. Again, it is an 

16 experimental reactor so you think they would 

17 evaluate.

18 DR. MAURO: Well, you try to build 

19 a weight of evidence again. We are always in 

20 this situation. At some point you get to a 

21 place where most people would agree I think 

22 you've made your case, you know, based on 
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1 weight of evidence. 

2 MEMBER FIELD: But would NRC have 

3 any data on this reactor?

4 MR. HINNEFELD: They would 

5 probably have the summary reports that we have 

6 but I don't know if they might have some, you 

7 mean design things and things like that? 

8 MEMBER FIELD: Safety analysis 

9 report? 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. 

11 MEMBER FIELD: Back in that period 

12 I thought dosimetry records also were sent, 

13 but I don't know how long they keep them.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, they send 

15 annual summary reports to AEC, yes.

16 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Yes, that's 

17 about, now you have to report individuals but 

18 in those days all you did was report a 

19 summary. And now they were broken down not by 

20 one rem but by hundreds of millirem. So, that 

21 data might be useful. For example, if you 

22 were to find instead of everybody below one 
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1 rem was everybody below 100 millirem that 

2 would be interesting.

3 MS. JESSEN: This is Karin. Do 

4 you mind if I say something about data?

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I wish you would.

6 MS. JESSEN: We have looked 

7 Landauer and Landauer made an attempt to find 

8 the City of Piqua dosimetry records and no 

9 records were found. Landauer did a more 

10 comprehensive search for records at various 

11 sites but nothing was found. And in addition 

12 we also did some searches on the NRC database, 

13 the ADAMS database, and nothing was found 

14 there either. Really, during this whole ER 

15 process we did pretty much do a really 

16 thorough search of records and at this point 

17 nothing was found. If I remember correctly, 

18 we did interview someone who had said that 

19 there were records at one point. They were in 

20 a shoe box in his desk drawer. And nobody 

21 seems to know what has happened to those 

22 records. They are gone somewhere hiding 
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1 maybe.

2 DR. NETON: I had heard at one 

3 point the City of Piqua took possession of the 

4 records and they got lost from there.

5 MS. JESSEN: Right. But I do 

6 remember specifically this one guy said yes 

7 they were in his lower, I think he said his 

8 lower left hand drawer in a shoe box. We were 

9 never able to find those.

10 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Sort of like 

11 Seaborg's plutonium. 

12 MR. KATZ: So we can cross 

13 Landauer off the list it sounds like.

14 MS. JESSEN: Yes.

15 MR. KATZ: That's even an option 

16 and NRC it sounds like you've plumbed --

17 MS. JESSEN: Right. You know and 

18 we were trying really hard to find some of 

19 these records because it is kind of hard to 

20 hang your hat on something without records and 

21 only just the summary data but you know we 

22 have looked in all these places that you are 
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1 discussing at this point. 

2 MEMBER FIELD: I'm just curious. 

3 Do you have the contract ID with Landauer? Do 

4 you have that number to give them?

5 MS. JESSEN: I do not have that 

6 number in my notes.

7 MEMBER FIELD: If you could just 

8 get, find one dosimetry report and find that 

9 contract number, that's where they have the 

10 access. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Sensor ID how they 

12 find stuff. 

13 MEMBER FIELD: That is how they 

14 access things, so it may be helpful if you can 

15 do some discovery if even if one person kept 

16 their records from Landauer that would be a 

17 good way to find them.

18 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: It also seems 

19 like you should be able to find, well I 

20 shouldn't say it that way but the log books 

21 for the health physics people would have kept 

22 for any job that was considered potentially 
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1 hot job and you would expect they used a 

2 portable CAM in that area so they would have 

3 documented the levels, which would give us a 

4 real good shield for what kind of --

5 DR. MAURO: Radiation work 

6 permits.

7 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes, radiation 

8 work permits would give us a real handle on 

9 those potential.

10 DR. MAURO: We are looking forward 

11 to seeing it. 

12 MS. JESSEN: And one other thing 

13 is that we did talk with Jeff Tack. Are you 

14 familiar with Jeff Tack?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Jeff Tack works 

16 for DOE Legacy Management.

17 MS. JESSEN: Right and we did talk 

18 with him and interview him and let me see. 

19 I'm looking at my notes right now. He said 

20 that all the operational records went to DOE 

21 and DOE-LM inherited approximately two to 

22 three cubic feet of records from the Chicago 
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1 office. There is not a lot of information, 

2 only plant drawings and environmental 

3 documents and site monitoring. Let's see and 

4 then he went on to say there were never any 

5 Legacy records transferred. DOE-LM says that 

6 all they have are equipment drawings but no 

7 exposure records. Then it goes on to say the 

8 DOE-LM Chicago office said that all records 

9 were destroyed. 

10 DR. NETON: I've heard that before 

11 and they magically surfaced.

12 MS. JESSEN: And then he also went 

13 on to say DOE and the City of Piqua do not 

14 have any. They were probably destroyed. So 

15 those were my notes from my interview with 

16 Jeff Tack in an effort to find individual 

17 records.

18 MR. KATZ: Is that T-A-C-K?

19 MS. JESSEN: Yes.

20 MR. KATZ: Thanks.

21 CHAIRMAN POSTON: In the telephone 

22 interviews you talked to the health 
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1 physicists. Any indication of incidents and 

2 those kinds of things?

3 MS. JESSEN: I would have to go 

4 back. I have in the ER there is a summary of 

5 the interviews with the people that we 

6 interviewed and I would have to go back and 

7 review that. I don't have the answer at this 

8 moment. Roger do you remember anything?

9 MR. HALSEY: Not off the top of my 

10 head. I would have to look at the notes too.

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I don't remember 

12 anything that's why I asked the question.

13 DR. NETON: There were two 

14 incidents. One is a leaking coolant pipe but 

15 it kind of a froze and they cleaned it up and 

16 then a soot material from one of the burning 

17 operations, it was like 400 dpm.

18 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I was just 

19 thinking if there was any anecdotal evidence 

20 that came up when you talked to people. 

21 Sometimes they say oh yes, blah, blah, blah.

22 DR. NETON: I didn't do the 
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1 interviews, most people indicated it was a 

2 fairly clean operation. Exposures were 

3 minimal to non-existent. That is about all we 

4 have to go on.

5 MR. HALSEY: I do have my notes 

6 from that coolant leak and I don't remember 

7 the job of the guy but he did say no one was 

8 exposed. They cleaned it up with a shovel. 

9 It solidified like wax. They just picked it 

10 up and it set up like soap.

11 DR. NETON: Like soap.

12 MS. JESSEN: And if you do look at 

13 the end of the ER that has the summary of the 

14 interviews, a couple of people do mention 

15 incidents and it is under the column that says 

16 incidents. I just wrote down what the 

17 interviewee was stating about incidents. 

18 MEMBER FIELD: I'm just curious do 

19 you have this paper that was published in 1970 

20 by Wheelock? It is called Retirement of the 

21 Piqua Nuclear Reactor or Power Facility?

22 MS. JESSEN: Well I looked at 
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1 probably over 200 documents. I don't remember 

2 that one in particular but if it's in the SRDB 

3 I did look at it. 

4 MEMBER FIELD: I just looked up on 

5 PubMed, Google Scholar and it is a technical 

6 report. You would think this being a research 

7 reactor there would be more published.

8 CHAIRMAN POSTON: In that time 

9 period there was a lot of stuff. But, you 

10 know, I remember my early days at Babcock and 

11 Wilcox it never had an over exposure. We 

12 never had an airborne release. We never had 

13 anything. Some of these operations were 

14 pretty clean. 

15 Okay let's see. The other things 

16 I had sort of a question about the radiolysis 

17 of hydrocarbon coolant. I don't know how to 

18 address that. It seems to me that we need to 

19 understand that before we start postulating 

20 carbon-14 or carbon dioxide or whatever. I 

21 don't understand the mechanism. That's maybe 

22 an academic endeavor. I don't know.
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1 DR. NETON: Like I say if they 

2 developed this coolant, they must have tested 

3 it and it was picked for a reason.

4 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Yes.

5 DR. NETON: I think it withstood 

6 the temperature.

7 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Because as you 

8 look at the half-life of the radionuclides 

9 with the exception of cobalt-60 and tritium 

10 and carbon-14, most of them were fairly short 

11 lived.

12 DR. MAURO: Unfortunately though 

13 those samples and the gamma spec analysis and 

14 the coolant samples, again no one had the 

15 presence of mind let's take a look at the 

16 tritium concentration. They do them, sorry, 

17 the tritium concentration. That was in the 

18 coolant or in this waxy buildup. I wasn't 

19 sure when they reported the carbon-14 and they 

20 reported the tritium whether that was coolant 

21 or some kind of special place where they were 

22 having a problem and they wanted to see what 
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1 the crust was made out of. There was coolant 

2 and the old coolant, they did have this 

3 carbon-14 ten to the minus two microcuries per 

4 cc, number comes to mind. So obviously --

5 DR. NETON: And if you take a 

6 sample of the coolant and it solidifies, you 

7 are trying to measure carbon-14.

8 DR. MAURO: Did someone get into a 

9 liquid simulation detection? In other words -

10 - 

11 DR. NETON: Dissolved it.

12 DR. MAURO: The cocktail is an 

13 organic. Maybe it just dissolves. I think is 

14 it in the cocktail?

15 DR. NETON: Yes, the cocktail. I 

16 don't know that you would dissolve this.

17 DR. MAURO: This stuff, yes, I 

18 don't know. We're guessing, that is what we 

19 are doing.

20 CHAIRMAN POSTON: And the only 

21 other thing I had was some question about can 

22 we learn anything from the Idaho reactor?
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1 DR. NETON: Right. That's on my 

2 list. That's probably one of our best hopes 

3 at this point in my opinion.

4 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Did you have 

5 anything else Ted on your list?

6 MR. KATZ: I don't.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Some of the design 

8 information that is a question. Did we for 

9 Karin, when Jeff said they had design 

10 information but no individual information. 

11 Did we go look at that? Did we go try to 

12 capture what they had?

13 MR. HALSEY: This is Roger. I'm 

14 afraid Karin had to step away to the restroom 

15 for a second.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: All right. 

17 MR. HALSEY: I'll take the note 

18 for her.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I was just curious 

20 because one of the questions we've talked 

21 about is potential exposure and filter changes 

22 and things like that and the design might be 
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1 relying on that, you know. We wouldn't be 

2 able to look for individual information -- or 

3 do we already know?

4 DR. NETON: I think we knew a lot 

5 about the design.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We may have 

7 enough.

8 DR. MAURO: How did they measure 

9 the tritium and the carbon-14 in the coolant? 

10 It would be interesting to know what they 

11 did, the procedure they followed to see what 

12 they did. 

13 MR. POTTER: This is Gene Potter. 

14 I believe we have from the final safeguard 

15 summary --

16 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry, Gene. Can 

17 you start over just because we have a phone 

18 going.

19 CHAIRMAN POSTON: We're all 

20 dancing right now Gene. We'll sit down in a 

21 minute.

22 MR. KATZ: Okay, thank you.
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1 MR. POTTER: Okay, from the final 

2 safeguard summary report which is I think what 

3 the question came up about that report by 

4 probably a different name nowadays. There are 

5 figures what they anticipated to be in the 

6 coolant for tritium and carbon-14 0.21 

7 microcuries per cc and 1.4 times ten to the 

8 minus four microcuries per cc respectively. 

9 That is a prospective analysis. I assume it 

10 would have been safe cited. But it shows that 

11 they were considering the production of those 

12 elements or those isotopes in the design of 

13 the reactor. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Which document was 

15 that again Gene?

16 MR. POTTER: That's the final 

17 safeguard summary report for the Piqua Nuclear 

18 Power Facility. It's in, this is discussed in 

19 the ER in sections 7.2.1.1. Those levels are 

20 in that section of the ER.

21 MEMBER FIELD: Jim, in these cases 

22 how often did you get the dosimetry data from 
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1 Landauer? For a lot of sites you just can't 

2 get it?

3 DR. NETON: Pretty rarely. I mean 

4 I think we got some information from Landauer 

5 for GSI and that's about the only one I can 

6 think of where we actually got it. Other than 

7 Landauer data that was already in the files 

8 for some reason. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I think we got 

10 something just recently.

11 DR. NETON: It's not a very high 

12 probability of success when you go to Landauer 

13 looking for medical records.

14 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, they search by 

15 that contract number. That's the key.

16 DR. NETON: Yes if you don't know 

17 what the contract, if they changed names, who 

18 the contract was actually -- the formal name 

19 of the contract.

20 MEMBER FIELD: Usually there's a 

21 number associated with it.

22 DR. NETON: Yes.
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1 MEMBER FIELD: And that stays the 

2 same.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, if you can 

4 find a number they can generally find it. 

5 Brookhaven, we got a bunch -- we got some 

6 things from Brookhaven and actually they sent

7 us the microfiche. 

8 DR. NETON: Just a few instances 

9 that I can think of where we actually got 

10 Landauer data. 

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Does Landauer 

12 keep the film? I mean this would be film 

13 time.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: To my knowledge, 

15 they don't keep the film. What I think they 

16 keep is a copy of the report that they send to 

17 the customer. That is generally what we get 

18 to see.

19 DR. NETON: Yes.

20 DR. MAURO: That was too early.

21 (Simultaneous speaking.)

22 DR. NETON: They may save it for 
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1 a period of time. 

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Because at one 

3 time people did save them.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Nevada Test Site 

5 still has theirs.

6 DR. NETON: That film goes bad 

7 over time. Acetic acid or some kind of a 

8 weird reaction.

9 MR. KATZ: So DCAS has the action 

10 list. Does SC&A have anything?

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well I'm not 

12 sure at this point.

13 MR. KATZ: At this point, yes.

14 DR. MAURO: My thoughts are, under 

15 normal circumstances, you know, we are doing a 

16 review of a SEC. We would go into the site 

17 query database, check all the numbers, confirm 

18 everything. Maybe we actually do a site data 

19 capture, make a site visit. That is our 

20 standard protocol. We do interviews. We do 

21 the kinds of things you folks have done and 

22 see if we can uncover. However, I think that 
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1 might be premature at this time. I think 

2 there are things that you folks would like to 

3 do first. It is at that point, then, I think 

4 we will make a determination whether you want 

5 us to prepare a separate report. You have 

6 nothing from us right now, except what you 

7 have heard.

8 DR. NETON: But I think we need to 

9 evaluate these soft areas and come back. Who 

10 knows what our conclusion will be after we go 

11 through all of this. And then we will provide 

12 our White Paper and ask SC&A to review it and 

13 dig deeper.

14 CHAIRMAN POSTON: That makes sense 

15 to me. I think that's what -- I agree. We 

16 need to let you guys do your job.

17 DR. NETON: The last question is, 

18 how soon are we going to produce this, I 

19 suppose. I really can't comment until I sit 

20 down. We'll get something out on this to you 

21 in a time line. I need to talk to the folks 

22 on the phone and figure out what their late 
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1 schedule looks like.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well, I mean, 

3 some of these folks have already been 

4 compensated. Is that correct?

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Four out of five.

6 CHAIRMAN POSTON: So we're doing a 

7 retrospective, then?

8 MR. KATZ: There could be other 

9 claimants in the future.

10 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well, what I am 

11 looking at is one has not been compensated, 

12 the other four have been compensated. So 

13 that's everybody that's --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Who has claimed.

15 CHAIRMAN POSTON: So this is, in 

16 terms of priority, where does this fit in? I 

17 guess that is something that we have to talk 

18 about. There are things I think needed to be 

19 done. We have elucidated those that need to 

20 be done and I think we've heard general 

21 agreement that those are the things that need 

22 to be done. The question is not only, what is 
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personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, 

has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the Piqua Moderated Reactor

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1 your staff already doing, what's on their 

2 plate but whether -- how fast does this need 

3 to be done. Should we put it on the back 

4 burner for a while?

5 MR. HINNEFELD: It may be useful 

6 to have some sort of Board discussion because 

7 the Board has a lot of activity. It has a lot 

8 of things going on that we have to try and 

9 support them all, as John -- we are trying to 

10 support them all. So it may be worthwhile to 

11 have some sort of discussion with the Board 

12 about here's the universe of things that are 

13 hanging or work that is going on. How do you 

14 want to handle it in terms of what order? 

15 Because we can essentially adjust these kinds 

16 of work, this kind of work, we can adjust this 

17 as the Board wants us to adjust it unless we 

18 get some exterior problem like getting the 

19 classified information or something. But as 

20 general, we can arrange our priorities in 

21 whatever way we see fit here. Now we've made 

22 our one-year objective in terms of claims 
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1 within a year. We will probably be trying to 

2 shorten that so that there will be some things 

3 we will have to, some we will have to divert 

4 to that. But in terms of available for Board 

5 activities, we can work in any order that the 

6 Board prefers.

7 MR. KATZ: Stu, you were going to 

8 Jim -- Dr. Melius and I and you had discussed 

9 getting sort of a compendium of status.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we are 

11 compiling it. I've had guys out on HPS 

12 meeting and then on leave and travel. That's 

13 where we are.

14 MR. KATZ: But this is just for 

15 John and -- this is -- they are working on 

16 sort of a compendium of what's the status of 

17 activities related to a variety of things SC&A 

18 has reviewed that are on the Board's plate and 

19 so on. Where is DCAS with these different 

20 items, and I think that this really fits in 

21 that conversation that, once we have that, if 

22 there can be an ordering of priorities so that 
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1 the Board can be helpful to DCAS in setting 

2 its priorities related to Board support.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, and at 

4 least we all will be working with the same set 

5 of expectations in terms of what are things we 

6 really want to try to make progress on.

7 MR. KATZ: Right. 

8 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well, two 

9 things. We have a telephone conference coming 

10 up, right, and we have a Board meeting coming 

11 up. I guess the question is, what do I report 

12 in terms of the progress that we have met, 

13 we've looked at the report, the ER and we have 

14 some soft issues that you guys are dealing 

15 with.

16 DR. NETON: I would say it is 

17 unlikely we will have a White Paper out before 

18 the Board meeting. 

19 CHAIRMAN POSTON: As always seems 

20 to happen, they sold this Working Group to me 

21 saying, well, this is an easy one. Why don't 

22 you take it?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: It's never as easy 

2 as it sounds.

3 CHAIRMAN POSTON: It's never as 

4 easy as it sounds because there are always 

5 questions.

6 MR. KATZ: I actually recall that 

7 you enthusiastically volunteered, John.

8 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I didn't show 

9 you the bruises that occurred before that.

10 MR. KATZ: Someone trying to speak 

11 on the phone?

12 MR. DECKER: Yes, this is Richard 

13 Decker again. I just wanted you know, based 

14 on what you were saying and I know the Board 

15 is busy, I wanted to give you a petitioner's 

16 side of the story of what's more important. 

17 In my case and my family's case we battled 

18 this for nine years before we got the Board's 

19 recommendation up in Port Jefferson that 

20 helped us out. And I'm on the phone because I 

21 want to help anybody that has went through 

22 this. Just keep in mind that when you are 
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1 setting your priorities and I understand 

2 everybody is busy, that some of us out here 

3 have been battling this for, like, up to nine 

4 years for our family. So I would just keep 

5 that in mind when you are trying to prioritize 

6 the Board's decisions on what to do next and 

7 when to do it and that's all. Thanks.

8 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Mr. Decker. 

9 I think that is always important to keep in 

10 mind and that's what makes it really tough for 

11 the Board because we have all these host of 

12 sites with people in situations like yours. 

13 So we would hear the same concern from all the 

14 various sites that are on the Board's plate at 

15 a given time. That's what makes it tough.

16 CHAIRMAN POSTON: And I didn't 

17 want to sound callous but I'm trying to 

18 understand, are there people that need 

19 attention and what I heard was that at this 

20 point there are no additional petitioners. Is 

21 that right? Claimants?

22 MR. KATZ: There's one claimant, 
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1 in other words, who has been denied, right? 

2 Denied on a dose reconstruction, so this would 

3 be important if a Class was added. So it is 

4 important to at least one claimant right now.

5 DR. MAURO: But for the point of 

6 view of the granting the SEC status to the D&D 

7 period, that certainly could move forward.

8 MR. KATZ: That's already done.

9 DR. MAURO: Oh, that's a done 

10 deal?

11 MR. KATZ: No, that's done. The 

12 Board recommended --

13 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay.

14 MR. KATZ: That was already added.

15 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

16 DR. NETON: I'm not sure that one 

17 claim -- I don't know how we can figure this 

18 out -- has 250 days.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it does.

20 DR. NETON: It does?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I was checking 

22 that. It also has a listed cancers.
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1 MR. KATZ: So it's a claimant that 

2 would be affected by this decision?

3 DR. NETON: Two-hundred and fifty 

4 days at the Piqua reactor or 250 days --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: According to his 

6 employment on the cover page of his claim, he 

7 has about two years of employment. Well, it 

8 goes from somewhere in '61 to somewhere in 

9 '63. So he's got more than 250 days. He also 

10 has 20 years of employment at Idaho.

11 MR. KATZ: At Idaho. So this is 

12 a person, anyway, in Mr. Decker's shoes in 

13 effect.

14 DR. NETON: Even if there were 

15 zero, we could get a claim in tomorrow.

16 MR. KATZ: Right, right, right.

17 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay. So, we 

18 are going to put together an overall plan.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: We're putting 

20 together a list of stuff and here are the 

21 things we know we have to work on and let's 

22 sort out what order we want to do these in 
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1 now. It might be better to do it at the Board 

2 meeting as opposed to a phone call.

3 MR. KATZ: I don't think, well 

4 since we haven't even seen that yet, I'm 

5 assuming that will be more likely ready for 

6 the Board's working time during the Idaho 

7 meeting. I will actually list it there under 

8 the detailed items for the Board working time 

9 so we don't lose that. 

10 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Well, I don't 

11 have anything else unless we are --

12 MR. KATZ: No. 

13 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I would hope 

14 that we could meet by telephone next time. I 

15 was advised that we should always have a face16 to-face meeting first, which we've had. Even 

17 though it's been basically two hours, it's 

18 still been useful. I appreciate everybody 

19 coming. Anything else we need to talk about? 

20 Jim?

21 DR. NETON: Not here.

22 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Anybody? Bill? 
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1 Phil?

2 MR. KATZ: Thank you, everybody.

3 CHAIRMAN POSTON: All right. 

4 Thank you very much.

5 MR. KATZ: And thank you everyone 

6 on the line.

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

8 matter went off the record at 10:19 a.m.)

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