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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PROCEDURES REVIEW

+ + + + +

MONDAY

JANUARY 9, 2012

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened in the 

Brussels Room of the Cincinnati Airport 

Marriott, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron, 

Kentucky, at 9:00 a.m., Wanda I. Munn, Chair, 

presiding.

PRESENT:

WANDA I. MUNN, Chair

RICHARD LEMEN, Member*

PAUL L. ZIEMER, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

BOB ANIGSTEIN, SC&A*

HANS BEHLING, SC&A*

ELIZABETH BRACKETT, ORAU Team*

STU HINNEFELD, DCAS

STEVE MARSCHKE, SC&A

JOHN MAURO, SC&A*

MICHAEL RAFKY, HHS*

SCOTT SIEBERT, ORAU Team*

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU Team*

MATT SMITH, ORAU Team*

JOHN STIVER, SC&A

ELYSE THOMAS, ORAU Team*

BRANT ULSH, DCAS

*Participating via telephone
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Call to order 6 

Roll Call 6 

 

Database Review and Comments 11, 71

Including Linking Status

 Steve Marschke 11

 Discussion 13

 Action Item - DCAS 15

Carryover Items - Closed 67

OTIB 21-04, OTIB 51-01, OTIB 47-02,

OTIB-19, et al. - db link

OTIB-0070 Status - Any Change Re Update 70

 Mutty Sharfi 71, 87, 94

107, 109, 111

 Discussion 73, 87, 95

107, 109, 112

 Action Item - SC&A 120

PERs 120

 PER-008 120

 PER-018 123

 PER-020 123

 Action Item - DCAS 125
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

Carryover Items 125

 TIB-10, Anigstein Report Review 125

 

 Discussion 125, 128

 Brant Ulsh 127

 Action Item - DCAS/SC&A 129, 134, 135

 Bob Anigstein 132

 TIB-13, Status 135

 Action Item - DCAS 147, 151

 OTIB-52 Rev. 1 Response 151

 Matt Smith 152, 157, 161

 Discussion 152, 163

 Action Item - SC&A 171

 OTIB-6 176

 Steve Marschke 177

 Discussion 177

Report on Science Issues Work Group and 180

Other Overarching Issues Status

 Ted Katz 180

 Discussion 182

 Action Item - DCAS 210
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

Status of the Two-Pagers 215

 Wanda Munn 215

 Discussion 216

 Action Item - Subcommittee Members 226

 and DCAS

Unassigned Queue 227

 John Stiver 227

 Discussion 229

PERs 238

 John Stiver 238

 Discussion 240

Administrative Matters 263

 Next Meeting 263 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:00 a.m.

3 MR. KATZ: Wanda, it is your 

4 agenda.

5 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Does 

6 everybody have the agenda, including those on 

7 the phone? It was only sent last week. So, 

8 you haven't had it for a very long time, but, 

9 hopefully, you have had a chance to take a 

10 look at it.

11 Does anyone have any additions, 

12 corrections, or deletions from what we have on 

13 the agenda currently?

14 MR. KATZ: And, folks on the 

15 phone, we have a couple of additions to the 

16 agenda. One is --

17 MR. MARSCHKE: OTIB-6 

18 MR. KATZ: -- OTIB-6.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Findings 3 and 4.

20 MR. KATZ: Findings 3 and 4. 

21 Plus, at the end of the day, under 

22 administrative details, we have -- discuss 
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1 whether there are new procedures to be 

2 considered by SC&A and, also, discuss the path 

3 forward for PER reviews. So that is what is 

4 on the plate so far, folks on the phone.

5 DR. ULSH: Wanda, I don't have the 

6 agenda open in front of me right at the 

7 moment, but we are prepared to talk about 

8 OTIB-70.

9 CHAIR MUNN: We are?

10 DR. ULSH: "We" meaning NIOSH.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and "we" meaning 

12 the Committee.

13 DR. ULSH: OTIB-52, and I think we 

14 already talked about OTIB-6.

15 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB-52, we will 

16 include OTIB-6. We also had OTIB-10, Bob 

17 Anigstein's report review, and you have a 

18 couple of things to talk to us about under the 

19 status of the PERs. Yes, that is what I have. 

20 I believe we are okay.

21 The first item we have, as usual, 

22 is our concern with the database review and 
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1 where we are. At our last meeting in 

2 September, we were hoping that there would be 

3 one or more productive meetings of the folks 

4 who were working on that database to try to 

5 resolve some of the issues that we had 

6 discussed at that meeting and at previous 

7 meetings, and to see if we could get one step 

8 closer to where we need to be.

9 Steve, do you want to talk to us 

10 about that? Did you have an opportunity to 

11 meet with all the parties involved?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: We didn't really 

13 have any kind of a formal meeting between SC&A 

14 and NIOSH on this thing. What we have done is 

15 we have attempted to use the database. In 

16 using the database, whenever -- once in a 

17 while I will come across some bugs or 

18 glitches, and I will send off an email to 

19 Brant.

20 A couple of them, I have one here 

21 on the screen -- basically trying to create --

22 one of the things that we talked about last 
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1 time was a PDF file and being able to create 

2 the PDF file --

3 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: -- from the 

5 document. That has been implemented, but when 

6 I tried to use it, I was, you know, 90 percent 

7 successful. In one case, it didn't work. And 

8 so, I sent the email off, and I don't know, 

9 that is, I guess, being taken care of.

10 And then, just recently, when I 

11 tried to look at the findings of OTIB-10, I 

12 got an error message. The issue, again, you 

13 can see what came up in red. There was an 

14 issue loading the comment, finding details.

15 These are the types of things you 

16 would expect to find during the, I guess you 

17 would call it, the beta phase of software 

18 development. These are just normal, typical 

19 things, I think. These are probably going to 

20 continue for some time, as we get into the 

21 nitty details and start working with the 

22 software, and these things are going to creep 
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1 up, and we'll continue to -- but I mean, 

2 Wanda, you had probably the most significant 

3 thing was we still don't have a way to 

4 generate the summary table.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Right, which we were 

6 hoping for --

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Actually, we don't 

8 have any way to get any kind of summary 

9 information. It used to be SC&A's finding 

10 summary report, and that has gone away. So, 

11 right now, there is no way to get any kind of 

12 summary information out of the database. I 

13 mean, I think that probably should move to the 

14 top of the list of things to do.

15 CHAIR MUNN: I would very much 

16 like to see that moved to the top of the list, 

17 for more reasons than one. Not only is it the 

18 best tool that, in my opinion, we have had 

19 since we started this process, but also it is 

20 the ideal mode for reporting out to people 

21 outside of both the Subcommittee and outside 

22 of the Board itself as to the progress that we 
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1 are making here. Certainly, without it, there 

2 is simply no few set of words, few set of data 

3 points that can be put in front of someone to 

4 say this is what we are doing; this is how far 

5 we have gone. So, yes.

6 And we all agree that that needs 

7 to move up to the top of the list for next 

8 time. So I really would like to see this 

9 happen.

10 DR. ULSH: Yes, to go back to our 

11 last meeting, the highest-priority item coming 

12 out of the last meeting was the ability to 

13 generate the PDF --

14 CHAIR MUNN: The PDF file.

15 DR. ULSH: -- summary findings.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

17 DR. ULSH: And that has been done.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Good. Hopefully.

19 DR. ULSH: Well, with occasional 

20 bugs.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

22 DR. ULSH: But, by and large, it 
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1 has been done.

2 CHAIR MUNN: It is ready.

3 DR. ULSH: So we will continue to 

4 work on the individual bugs as they come out, 

5 but --

6 CHAIR MUNN: Now the crucial 

7 question is, is it ready enough for the 

8 Subcommittee Chair to be able to get out of it 

9 what she wants?

10 (Laughter.)

11 DR. ULSH: Well, let's leave that 

12 to be determined. But, for the next meeting, 

13 we will move this priority item up to generate 

14 the summary list. It used to be the SC&A 

15 summary list, for lack of a better term.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, there were 

18 two summaries. I mean, there was what we call 

19 the "Wanda summary list" or the summary table 

20 from the Access database. And this SC&A 

21 summary list or findings report that is here 

22 was something that I think, NIOSH, you guys 
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1 put together when we migrated over to the SQL, 

2 to this database.

3 And so, we really want to get the 

4 so-called "Wanda summary table" or the summary 

5 table that we had back in the Access database. 

6 It gave a breakdown. Yes, it was more like 

7 this table here, which had the date when the 

8 findings were generated, and then it goes --

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: We talked with the 

10 IT guy about this last time, didn't we, I 

11 thought?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: We talked with them 

13 numerous times, Paul.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Was there another 

15 column that had to be added? Or there was 

16 something else that had to be searched. Was 

17 it the date of the report or --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: One of the things 

19 we talked about --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- was missing 

21 that didn't permit us to sort the way we 

22 wanted on this.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, I don't know 

2 about on this, sorting on this, because there 

3 really wasn't much to sort on this.

4 One of the things that we have 

5 talked in the past about missing is a little 

6 descriptor, describer, as to what this date 

7 is. This is really the first package of --

8 CHAIR MUNN: This is the group.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: This is the group. 

10 Maybe this one here is the review of OTIB-52. 

11 Maybe this one is the review of PROC-70. And 

12 so there should be a little bit of a 

13 descriptor associated with each one of these 

14 dates. I mean, we have talked about that 

15 going back to when we were on the Access 

16 database, and we determined at that time, 

17 because we were migrating over, that it wasn't 

18 worth making the change. But if we are on 

19 this one, we may want to add a column here 

20 saying, you know, a little descriptor as to 

21 what each one of these dates are.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: If I could have 
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1 one of those, I will take it. Brant is going 

2 on travel tonight. So I will take it back to 

3 Tom.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: These were dates 

5 of groups of findings.

6 (Simultaneous speakers.)

7 CHAIR MUNN: There were only three 

8 groups of findings. The others were 

9 individuals that came up from some generalized 

10 Board discussion that directed them to our 

11 attention.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. Like the 

13 first one was 183 findings. That was 

14 multiple.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, the three in 

17 there where you see a hundred findings 

18 associated with them, those are multiple 

19 reviews. The other ones are all individual

20 documents.

21 MR. STIVER: Those were the three 

22 big sets.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: That is correct.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: These are all 

3 dates of SC&A deliverables.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Exactly. Those 

5 are SC&A dates.

6 MR. STIVER: Rather than those 

7 three with hundreds we are not quite sure 

8 exactly what drove those dates on the other --

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Those are dates of 

10 the report. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Dates of the 

12 deliverable, dates of the report.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Dates of the 

14 report, dates of the deliverable.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: And the report 

16 was --

17 CHAIR MUNN: There were groups in 

18 that.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- a whole bunch 

20 of, a certain set of procedures were reviewed 

21 in that report. And that 183, or whatever the 

22 number is --
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- is a 

3 compilation of all the findings in multiple 

4 reports.

5 CHAIR MUNN: There was one in 

6 2005, one in 2006, one in 2007.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: And they were 

8 tasked in groups.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

10 CHAIR MUNN: The others were 

11 individual assignments from --

12 MR. MARSCHKE: I know the 

13 construction worker was one of the individual 

14 ones, and I think PROC-70 was an individual 

15 one.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: There was -- what 

18 was it, 6000.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, there are 

20 several, all the others potentially.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, all the other 

22 ones are -- individual reports. I think 
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1 OTIB-54 -- before 44, I don't know even know 

2 if that is on this list, but that was another 

3 one.

4 MR. KATZ: Right.

5 CHAIR MUNN: And what you have up 

6 on the screen right now, my system, if I click 

7 on the SC&A finding reports, I get an error 

8 message.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, yes, you get 

10 an error message on that, right. That is not 

11 working.

12 CHAIR MUNN: So there is just 

13 nothing --

14 MR. MARSCHKE: There is nothing.

15 CHAIR MUNN: -- other than what we 

16 have up on the screen right now.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Exactly. There is 

18 no way to get any kind of automated summary 

19 out of the way it stands right now.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Unless you had a 

21 column identifying the SC&A finding date.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: And you could 
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1 search on it. But, then, you would have to 

2 add them up by hand.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Or we could even say 

4 group one, group two, group three.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, if any ones 

6 that had this first date on it, if you 

7 searched on that, you would get that whole 

8 group of one --

9 CHAIR MUNN: That's correct. 

10 That's correct.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: That's all I'm 

12 saying.

13 MR. STIVER: That's true. Yes, 

14 you could do it that way.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: If each finding, 

16 where it says "Total Findings" on that 

17 document, if you had the date, the SC&A date 

18 of those findings, you could search on it.

19 MR. STIVER: It would pull up that 

20 group, wouldn't it?

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, I think it 

22 would.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Well, we would hope 

2 so, in any case.

3 I will make every effort, later 

4 this week or early next, to see how successful 

5 I am with getting the PDF files up. That will 

6 be most helpful to the Work Groups as we 

7 transfer --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Actually, Wanda, we 

9 can run through an example, either during one

10 of the breaks or if you want to do it when the 

11 Subcommittee is in session, we can run through 

12 the steps of how to generate a PDF file, if 

13 you --

14 CHAIR MUNN: I wouldn't mind doing 

15 that right now.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Because there may be 

18 others from time to time who will need that, 

19 and certainly people outside those sitting in 

20 this room will need it from time to time, if 

21 they don't get it from there.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.
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1 MR. STIVER: This is John Stiver. 

2 I'm sorry to interrupt.

3 But before we move on to the PDFs, 

4 I just wanted to say that maybe this is a 

5 question for both Brant and Steve. Is there a 

6 particular reason why generating this and 

7 sorting by finding is particularly difficult? 

8 Or is it just that it hasn't been addressed 

9 fully as a priority item? It has been about a 

10 year and a half since we were able to generate 

11 that summary table.

12 DR. ULSH: Well, and over the past 

13 year and a half, we have gone from having 

14 pretty much nothing to where we are --

15 MR. STIVER: Right. I know a lot 

16 of progress has been made here.

17 DR. ULSH: Well, yes. As in 

18 previous meetings where we have organized the 

19 priorities, this has been near the top, but 

20 the highest thing has been generating PDF.

21 CHAIR MUNN: The PDF.

22 DR. ULSH: So, this is now moved 
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1 up to the top.

2 MR. STIVER: I would just add that 

3 this is a tool that, to me, is very central. 

4 It is a very simple table, but it provides all 

5 that trending data right upfront, and it is 

6 very useful for Wanda, but it would also be 

7 useful for me in tracking our progress from 

8 SC&A's standpoint.

9 And I would just suggest that an 

10 interim measure. We can certainly put 

11 together the summary reports ourselves until 

12 such time as the automated system is 

13 available.

14 We have one of our junior 

15 engineers who is database-savvy, or several, 

16 who could spend a day or two pulling the 

17 information out by hand, generating the table. 

18 I am going to essentially have that done on 

19 my side, and we can provide that to Wanda.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, let's see. 

21 When we schedule the next meeting, and it 

22 probably will be in three or four months, I 
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1 would assume.

2 MR. STIVER: See where we stand.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: See where we stand 

4 on the automated one. And if we can do it 

5 with a click of a button, it is going to be a 

6 lot easier than if we have to spend a day or 

7 two to do it.

8 MR. STIVER: Yes. Well, we will 

9 see where we are a month out from --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: But if we can't get 

11 it a month out or a couple of weeks out, if it 

12 is not available, then we can have somebody, a 

13 junior engineer, go through and make this, 

14 similar to a table like this before the next 

15 meeting.

16 CHAIR MUNN: I would really 

17 appreciate that, John. Thank you very much 

18 for the offer. We will keep our fingers 

19 crossed and hope that it isn't necessary, that

20 we will be able to push a magic button and do 

21 what we need to do by the time we meet again, 

22 which I hope is not going to be more than 
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1 three months from now. I would like for us --

2 MR. KATZ: Yes, so let's just 

3 check in two weeks before the meeting, and if 

4 we need it, that will be great.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Excellent.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Shall we move on?

7 The next kind of outstanding issue 

8 or problem with the database is -- again, we 

9 talked about this the last time -- this column 

10 that we call "Total Active Findings." That 

11 still does not seem to be working correctly.

12 I use OTIB-54 as my example of 

13 this because it is very illustrative. 

14 Basically, last time we talked we tried to 

15 discuss and determine what do we mean by 

16 active findings. And I think we settled on a 

17 definition of any finding except for those 

18 that are either closed or in progress is an 

19 active finding.

20 But you can see, basically, if you 

21 look at OTIB-54, you can see it has 26 total 

22 findings, and according to this database, it 
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1 has 26 active findings. But if you click on 

2 the details of OTIB-54, you can go in here and 

3 you can see basically -- oh, I'm sorry, I 

4 screwed up the definition of active.

5 Anything that is closed or 

6 anything that is in abeyance -- well, that is 

7 not what we decided last time. We said, 

8 basically, in abeyance or closed were the ones 

9 kind of similar to what was the trip for the 

10 two-pagers. Anything that would generate a 

11 two-pager, all the findings had to be either 

12 in abeyance or closed. And so, we were kind 

13 of trying to use the same definition for here.

14 If you remember from the previous 

15 screen, it had 26 total and 26 active. Well, 

16 you can see from the detail screen, the first 

17 one is in abeyance. The second one is closed. 

18 The third one is closed. The fourth one is 

19 closed. So you get the idea.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: So that column is 

22 not working. I think that probably should be 
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1 priority number two because that is a 

2 convenient way, if that is working, that is a 

3 convenient way to kind of like assign 

4 priorities to the procedures, as to which ones 

5 have the most active findings, and so which 

6 ones should we tackle maybe next or get the 

7 most bang for your buck.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Well, if we are 

9 successful in getting our ability to get a 

10 "Wanda report" out, a summary out, then that 

11 will automatically take care of itself.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: That will help in 

13 that area as well.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

15 MR. KATZ: Well, no, but the 

16 "Wanda report" will be inaccurate. So it is 

17 just as important because the "Wanda report" 

18 won't be correct, right?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know how --

20 it depends upon how they do the calculation, 

21 how they prepare the "Wanda report" and how 

22 they prepare this.
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1 DR. ULSH: It is all right. We 

2 can have two top priorities.

3 (Laughter.)

4 CHAIR MUNN: We can do that, yes. 

5 Which is priority 1? Priority 1 and priority 

6 1 plus.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Now, coming back to 

8 Wanda's request to demonstrate, I mean, 

9 generating a PDF file is very simple at this 

10 point. The way it has been set up is that you 

11 generate a PDF file for each finding. It is 

12 finding-driven.

13 So, for example, if I wanted to 

14 get a PDF of OTIB-54, Finding No. 1, all you 

15 have to do is come over here and click on the 

16 PDF thing, and it basically comes up in a 

17 separate window. You can blow it up, and it 

18 shows all the history of Finding No. 1.

19 And then, you can come over here 

20 to the file and click on the file and just go 

21 to print. And again, it is going to come up 

22 here. It will print it to Document Writer or 
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1 you can down here to CDC PDF Writer, click on 

2 that.

3 CHAIR MUNN: I'm sorry, I missed 

4 that. Go down to where?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Hang on for a 

6 second.

7 Go back and go up to file here, 

8 click on print, and then when it says up here 

9 "Printer Type" up in the upper lefthand 

10 corner, basically, you click on it, and it 

11 basically says all the different types of 

12 printers. And two of them are -- I don't know 

13 what the difference is between CDC PDF Writer 

14 in Session 7 and CDC PDF Writer down here. 

15 But let's just pick one, and you just click on 

16 that, and now it is going to generate a PDF 

17 file. And you click on OK. And it should 

18 come back. Okay, it comes back with a notice. 

19 You click on OK.

20 MR. STIVER: Wait a second. I got 

21 lost in that last little step there. It 

22 didn't work out for me. Okay.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: And then, it asks 

2 you where do you want to put it.

3 MR. STIVER: You used PDF Writer 

4 in Session or the --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: I used the Session 

6 7.

7 CHAIR MUNN: You used Session 7?

8 MR. KATZ: Although when you are 

9 hooked up to a printer, if you use in session, 

10 it will send it to your printer. That's it.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, right. 

12 Obviously, if you say PDF Writer, it is going 

13 to send it to a file, a PDF file, and you have 

14 to tell it where you want to put it in the 

15 PDF, in the file, where you want the file to 

16 be.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Can you just not 

19 "Save As" when the PDF first comes up? Can 

20 you just not do the "Save As" and save it that 

21 way? Do you have to run it through the PDF 

22 printer? It comes up as a PDF.
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1 MR. STIVER: Yes, I think that is 

2 kind of a redundant step.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, let's try it. 

4 Let's see. Save As. "This document does not 

5 allow you to save any changes." Okay. That's 

6 okay.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: It means that you 

8 can save; you just can't edit it.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, you can do it 

10 that way.

11 MR. STIVER: You know, it has a 

12 little, if you look at it, if you just run 

13 your mouse down to your bottom of the page, a 

14 little bar will come up and it has the 

15 different icons for either printing or saving. 

16 So, you can just use that.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, you can use 

18 that. You can click on this. So, there's 

19 multiple ways that you can save it as a PDF 

20 file.

21 So, this has been implemented.

22 It just so happened I was working 
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1 on OTIB-6. I was able to generate the PDF 

2 file for Finding 4. I could not generate it 

3 for Finding 3. I went and checked if I could 

4 generate it for Finding 1. No problem. 

5 Finding 2, no problem. But Finding 3, it just 

6 refused to do it. So, I don't know what that 

7 is all about. It is just going to get these 

8 little hiccups.

9 MR. STIVER: Yes, some glitch that 

10 needs to be worked through.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: So, I mean, it is 

12 pretty simple, pretty straightforward.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Until I have 

14 done this a couple of times, and until I have 

15 actually gotten it into the hands of another 

16 Work Group Chair, I will take at faith the 

17 idea that I am doing something when I am doing 

18 this.

19 All right. I have now saved, 

20 hopefully, Rev. OPC-1.

21 Now I have a question for those 

22 who have been working with this. In the past, 
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1 we have had one long continual batch of 

2 procedures which were really easy to scroll 

3 down. Now, on my computer, I have to change 

4 pages. Was it necessary for us to paginate 

5 this?

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, what do you 

7 mean by changing pages?

8 CHAIR MUNN: In order for me to 

9 get to OTIB-54, for example, I could not just 

10 simply scroll down, looking at the document 

11 number. I can only scroll down to RPG-44 and 

12 then I have to click on page 2 --

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

14 CHAIR MUNN: -- to go further 

15 down.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. That is the 

17 way, this database is set up that way.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Do we have a choice 

19 or is it necessary?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know.

21 CHAIR MUNN: If it is necessary, 

22 then that is one thing. If we have a choice, 
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1 it would be my choice to be able to scroll the 

2 entire list. But I don't know what the 

3 intricacies are.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Right now, what you 

5 can do, Wanda, is you can use the Search --

6 CHAIR MUNN: So, I have to use the 

7 Search screen?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Use the Search 

9 screen. Right now, the way the thing is set 

10 up, you don't have a choice. You have to use 

11 the Page Down. You can make your life easier 

12 by using the Search screen. You can make your 

13 life easier by basically doing sorts. You can 

14 sort on the various document headings. You 

15 can do filters to filter out. But, right now, 

16 really, the way the thing is set up, you have, 

17 I think it is 20 documents per page, and 

18 there's no way to increase that number.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. And the 

20 numbers are not always sequential as they were 

21 on the old --

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Again, if you do 
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1 the sort on document number, then they should 

2 be sequential.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Well, is that true 

4 now of OTIB-54? No.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: If you get into the 

6 OTIB area --

7 CHAIR MUNN: I see OTIB-54, 66, 

8 and 70 are four pages away from the first 

9 batch of OTIBs.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, but I think 

11 that is more because we have so many OTIBs. 

12 But I think if you look at OTIB -- I mean, all 

13 the OTIBs, I mean, if you look on this page, 

14 it starts with OTIB-39, 43, 47, and it is 

15 pretty much sequential until you get to 

16 OTIB-70 and then you get into the PROCs.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, no, not on my 

18 page. What page are you? Oh, you are sorting 

19 by filter.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: No, I didn't sort 

21 by filter. I did a sort on the document 

22 number.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

2 DR. ULSH: If you just click on 

3 the document --

4 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Very 

5 good. I was just going from the bare menu.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: If you click on the 

7 document -- no, no, the bare menu, it is not 

8 quite sequential. It is kind of sequential in 

9 the order that they were added to the 

10 database.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, that sorts by 

12 document number or sorts by document title.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. And then, if 

14 you wanted to really filter it out, I would 

15 just go in here and filter by TIBs. I guess 

16 you can't really filter by OTIBs, but you can 

17 filter by --

18 CHAIR MUNN: I will get 

19 comfortable with the pagination. It is just a 

20 personal preference to be able to scroll the 

21 whole length of that.

22 All right. Thank you very much 
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1 for the work with the PDF file. I hope that 

2 whatever glitches exist in there now will 

3 magically disappear between now and the time I 

4 start to get serious about getting these files 

5 into the proper hands.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda --

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: -- there is one 

9 other thing about the database. And you have 

10 it kind of here as a carryover item, about the 

11 db link. I know you have that, you know, we 

12 have the OTIB-21-04, OTIB-51-01. I think that 

13 was the link to supplemental documents.

14 CHAIR MUNN: It was a link to 

15 supplemental documents.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: And I don't know if 

17 you want to wait until we get to the carryover 

18 items or, if not, if we are talking about the 

19 database, do you want to do it here?

20 CHAIR MUNN: I think while we are 

21 in the database, let's talk about it because 

22 links to the supplemental documents are 
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1 actually as important as being able to 

2 transmit the PDF file for anyone outside this 

3 room who is working on this item.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I am just going to 

5 go to OTIB-51, and 51-01, it says. I really, 

6 to tell you the truth, Wanda, I have not 

7 checked into this. I don't know if Elyse is 

8 on the phone. Maybe she has really looked 

9 into this. I haven't been keeping track on 

10 this one.

11 CHAIR MUNN: She was on earlier. 

12 I hope she is still there.

13 Are you with us, Elyse?

14 MS. THOMAS: Yes. Yes, I am still 

15 on.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Great.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: And just looking at 

18 OTIB -- it says down here that George Kerr, 

19 for Finding OTIB-51-01, it says the last entry 

20 was from George Kerr, and it has a file 

21 attached to it, a PDF file attached to it. 

22 And you click on it, and, sure enough, it 
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1 comes right up. You can look at it.

2 DR. ULSH: I think that was the 

3 other high-priority item from the last one as 

4 well.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: I believe you are 

6 right.

7 CHAIR MUNN: I am sorry. Will you 

8 go back and do that one more time?

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: You're doing 51?

10 CHAIR MUNN: I was looking at my 

11 screen and not yours. I should have been 

12 watching what you were doing.

13 MR. STIVER: Fifty-one-01.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, that's 

15 interesting. If you close that PDF, it closes 

16 the --

17 MR. MARSCHKE: That is what I just 

18 found out, too.

19 (Laughter.)

20 CHAIR MUNN: So, what did you do?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I clicked on the 

22 top right "X" button to close that PDF that 
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1 opened up, and it took me out of the 

2 application.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: It takes you right 

4 out of the application.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: It took me back to 

6 the tools screen.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Maybe if we had a 

8 preference, we may want to open the PDF in a 

9 separate --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Open the PDF in a 

11 separate window.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: In a separate 

13 window, so that when you close it, it doesn't 

14 close the application. But, as far as having 

15 the ability to attach it, it seems to be --

16 MR. STIVER: Yes, the attachment 

17 seems to work. You can actually back out just 

18 by using the back arrow.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: There is no back 

21 arrow on the PDF. There is no back arrow on 

22 the PDF sheet.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, there is. Up 

2 to the right up there.

3 MR. STIVER: It comes up on a 

4 web tab.

5 MR. KATZ: Look at the top of the 

6 page.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that is where 

8 Paul is looking and it is gray. It is not 

9 activated. But that looks like a different 

10 -- what happens if you minimize that?

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: That was this.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, that's that. 

13 That's that. Okay. Yes, you printed a PDF 

14 here.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, I'm sorry.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Expand this. 

17 Expand this.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. I'm doing 

19 the wrong thing.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Now wait.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Now scroll down.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Expand it there.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Now scroll down.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, now --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: You're looking at 

4 the details. Keep going down. No, keep going 

5 down.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Right there.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: There.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, I see what you 

10 are saying. Okay. Yes.

11 (Simultaneous speakers.)

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Now that one is 

13 activated. So, you can back out of that.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Got you.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: So, that is what 

16 George wrote. That's George's response.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: What George wrote 

18 should probably be -- and, Elyse, you can 

19 correct me if I am wrong -- but I believe 

20 probably, if you go up and look --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: You don't want to 

22 close this.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: No, if you "X" out 

2 of that, it takes you out of the application.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: You want to back 

5 out.

6 MR. KATZ: You want to back out.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: If you look at 

9 basically this portion here where it says, 

10 "Unspecified OCAS OD user", there is a whole 

11 -- this goes on for a long time. I think this 

12 is probably what is in the PDF file.

13 MS. THOMAS: Yes, that is true for 

14 this one, for 51-01. And for some of the 

15 others that were carryover items, the 

16 attachment contains tabulated data that we 

17 weren't able to put in the response because of 

18 the limitations of the database.

19 But for 51-01, the only difference 

20 between the previously-loaded response, okay, 

21 that Steve was talking about, that you see the 

22 long text there, and the attached PDF file or 
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1 the linked file, is just formatting. The 

2 references that George had provided are a lot 

3 easier to read in the link than they are in 

4 the response in the database.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, the summary is 

6 too short.

7 MS. THOMAS: Yes. But, like I 

8 said, that is just the case for 51-01. For 

9 some of the others like 21-04, 47-02, and 19 

10 -- I can't remember what the finding number is 

11 on No. 19, but we will see it -- those all had 

12 tabulated data that was new. The Subcommittee 

13 talked about it, but it wasn't able to be 

14 linked into the database until now.

15 So, I hope that helps.

16 CHAIR MUNN: A little. Elyse, do 

17 you foresee this problem with links to tabular 

18 data as being an insurmountable obstacle or is 

19 this just something that you are having to 

20 cope with behind the scenes right now? Are we 

21 going to be able to do eventually or not?

22 MS. THOMAS: Yes, we can do it 
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1 now. NIOSH worked on that between the last 

2 meeting and this meeting. And so, we are now 

3 able to, by linking or attaching files, we can 

4 look at tabulated data as part of the 

5 response.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Good.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Wanda, the problem 

8 she referred to was, when you try to enter it 

9 into the entry screen, when you try to enter 

10 it --

11 CHAIR MUNN: It won't go here, 

12 yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It is hard to get 

14 the tabulation onto the entry screen.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Right, right, right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: That is the 

17 problem.

18 CHAIR MUNN: But the link it will 

19 take.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, certainly.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda, this is the 

22 way the data looked when we entered it 
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1 previously. See, you have a table, table 1, 

2 and it just all kind of runs together.

3 CHAIR MUNN: I remember trying 

4 to --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: And you can't read 

6 it. Now what they have done now is, when you 

7 add the -- this is 47-02 I am looking at, 

8 Elyse. And we go down here and you look at 

9 it, and you click on the PDF file. Now, 

10 basically, the tables are there.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. Excellent. All 

12 right. Then, my question was a non-question. 

13 Thank you all. That's good.

14 MS. THOMAS: The only thing that 

15 is a little bit confusing, although it is not 

16 a big problem, I don't think, is it looks like 

17 some of the findings were entered out of 

18 order. But that is why I put the original 

19 date on there and made a statement, something 

20 to the effect that it couldn't be linked 

21 previously and that kind of thing.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Dates are always 
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1 helpful. Chronology holds us up when all else 

2 fails.

3 All right. Thank you very much, 

4 Elyse, and thank you, Steve.

5 MR. STIVER: Elyse, this is John 

6 Stiver.

7 Are the links limited to PDFs or 

8 are there other file formats that can be 

9 linked in?

10 MS. THOMAS: I will have to defer 

11 to Brant on that one or Stu.

12 DR. ULSH: I think you can link 

13 other file formats.

14 MR. STIVER: Okay.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I would think you 

16 would be able to link whatever you want. I 

17 think it is just a link to another folder. It 

18 just pulls up a file that you put in that --

19 MR. STIVER: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I would think it 

21 wouldn't matter, but I will check to make 

22 sure. I don't know. I don't know.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Well, originally, we 

2 had talked about whether or not the links were 

3 going to be something that anyone could alter, 

4 which is one of the reasons we were talking 

5 about PDF files. They would be read-only 

6 files for the purpose of transferring them, 

7 when we were transferring them to someone 

8 else.

9 MR. STIVER: True. That could be 

10 a problem.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. But, of course, 

12 when we are in the position where the Work 

13 Groups are going to pursue the issue, and they 

14 will need to be making either additional files 

15 or adding to the files that are there, I guess 

16 one could make an argument either way.

17 MR. STIVER: Yes, that is kind of

18 what I was envisioning.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: What other formats 

20 were you thinking about?

21 MR. STIVER: Well, just like Excel 

22 tables.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, but an Excel 

2 table can be put into PDF form for this 

3 purpose.

4 MR. STIVER: Sure. I understand 

5 that, but if you wanted to transfer --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: And the same with 

7 a JPEG or whatever.

8 MR. STIVER: Yes, I was just 

9 thinking, though, if you wanted to transfer 

10 it, say, to a Work Group, and then they would 

11 see the PDF, but they wouldn't be able to 

12 extract the data or manipulate it. Whereas, 

13 if you sent them the link directly to the 

14 Excel table, they would have that capability.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I guess the 

16 thinking at the time was whatever we transfer 

17 to them needs to be a part of the permanent 

18 record, and it does not need to go away. If 

19 they need to add to it or to revise it in any 

20 way, they need to, in effect, duplicate that 

21 material.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Or request the 
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1 original from whoever generated it.

2 MR. STIVER: Yes, they could 

3 request the original.

4 MR. KATZ: Most of the stuff is 

5 probably on this Site Research Database 

6 anyway.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, most of the 

8 time, I don't see that a big problem. I mean, 

9 I think we are talking past each other a 

10 little bit because we are talking about PDF 

11 files which are being generated versus the PDF 

12 files which are linked.

13 I am not even sure how this works. 

14 When you generate a PDF file, for example, of 

15 Finding OTIB-47-02, does that PDF file that 

16 you generated include the attached PDF file or 

17 does it just basically include the stuff which 

18 in the database itself, the database proper?

19 So, you may not even, when you 

20 generate your PDF file -- and I don't know how 

21 that works. That is a question. But if it 

22 does not include the PDF, what you would end 
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1 up having to do is send to the other Work 

2 Group not only the PDF file that you generate 

3 out of this database, but also the attachment 

4 file.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Why don't we find 

6 out?

7 CHAIR MUNN: Well, yes, I can tell 

8 you that it is my intent to transmit what is 

9 here, and what happens in the Work Group is 

10 their problem, not mine. But, as long as we 

11 have gotten to this point where what we pick 

12 up from the PDF file is going to be in a 

13 correct, readable form and can be distributed 

14 to the Members of the Work Group, then that is 

15 key from our selfish perspective here.

16 So, let me give that a try and get 

17 more familiar with the way we are set up now 

18 and try to get comfortable with it.

19 Thank you all for the work you 

20 have done on this. I know this is tedious for 

21 all of us concerned.

22 DR. ULSH: I think there are a 
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1 number of these findings where the only reason 

2 they weren't closed was we wanted to make sure 

3 that this link was established. I don't know 

4 how you want to go through that today, whether 

5 you want to wait and do that or do you want to 

6 go through all of them?

7 CHAIR MUNN: No, I do want to wait 

8 to do it --

9 DR. ULSH: Okay.

10 CHAIR MUNN: -- because, until I 

11 personally feel more comfortable manipulating 

12 this file, then you are going to spend more 

13 time trying to show me what to do than is 

14 worthwhile. This need not be an instruction 

15 session, and that is essentially what it would 

16 be, I'm afraid. So, let's wait on that.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: According to the 

18 test that we just performed with OTIB finding 

19 47-02, the PDF file that you generate from the 

20 database does not include the PDF file that 

21 was attached to the database.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: So, it would have 
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1 to be provided in addition to the printout.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically, all you 

3 have in the PDF --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: You have the name 

5 of it there.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, you have the 

7 name of it, but it doesn't actually pull the 

8 data from it and merge the two PDF files 

9 together. It does not actually do that.

10 So, what you would have to do, 

11 then, is when you send it to your counterpart 

12 at a Work Group, you would have to send two 

13 files. You would have to send this file that 

14 you just generated from the database. Then, 

15 you would have to know, you would have to 

16 send, also, this --

17 CHAIR MUNN: Pull that up 

18 individually and send it?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, exactly.

20 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know where 

22 they are stored. I don't know where to tell 
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1 you to go pick them up. There is probably a 

2 directory somewhere on here where they can 

3 basically -- or you can pull it up and save 

4 it. When you open it, you could probably pull 

5 it up and save it.

6 CHAIR MUNN: That is probably what 

7 is going to have to happen --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

9 CHAIR MUNN: -- at least for the 

10 time being.

11 MR. STIVER: How tricky of a 

12 programming feat would it be to nest that 

13 within the new PDF?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I am making a note 

15 to that.

16 MR. KATZ: We don't have any 

17 computer whizzes here.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I couldn't even 

20 find a button on my computer to get on the 

21 internet.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. STIVER: We had a similar 

2 problem at a my former job and we were able to 

3 solve it. I don't remember exactly how we 

4 solved it. I didn't do it myself.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Well, the combination 

6 of individual idiosyncracies and individual 

7 even computer idiosyncracies, my system, for 

8 example, has the title of the procedure I am 

9 looking at in big, bold type over the top of 

10 the information I am looking at.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: That is just a 

12 click of the button. I don't know button to

13 tell you to click.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Which button it is?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: I said I don't know 

16 which one it is, but I know that they told me 

17 that before, and it is just a click of a 

18 button to get that fixed.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I know. But, as 

20 I said, my buttons are not known to me always. 

21 So, we do the best we can.

22 Good. Thank you.
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1 Anything else anyone wants to 

2 express any concerns about? Or any further 

3 discussion we need to devote to the database 

4 and where we are with it?

5 DR. ULSH: Well, we just -- sorry, 

6 go ahead.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, it looks good 

8 to me.

9 DR. ULSH: We discussed 

10 specifically finding OTIB-51-01. Is there a 

11 status on that?

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is on the 

13 agenda later, isn't it?

14 DR. ULSH: Oh, okay, never mind 

15 then.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Fifty-one-01, 

17 carryover item?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: That was, again, 

19 for the link.

20 MR. KATZ: That was just the 

21 linking. That was all that was left to do.

22 CHAIR MUNN: I think, yes, the 
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1 link was all that we had, yes.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: What was the status 

3 of 51-01?

4 CHAIR MUNN: It says 51-01 is in 

5 progress. "Lacking technical details and 

6 clarity. Critical experiments. Facility is 

7 mentioned in several places." On pages 7 and 

8 11, it is stated "the main missed neutron dose 

9 because of the energy threshold of the NTA 

10 film. This 55 percent was determined in 

11 1960." Reference is made to RPRT 33.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically -- I 

13 think we discussed this, we discussed 51-01 

14 during the March 22nd, 2011 meeting. We can 

15 pull up the transcript on that. And our 

16 conclusion was that the administrative problem 

17 with the linking, upon correction of this 

18 problem, the issue can be closed.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Then, let's hope so 

20 because that is an old finding.

21 DR. ULSH: Right. So, it looks 

22 like the only thing that was keeping this 
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1 finding open was establishing this link which 

2 we just looked at. So that it is linked now.

3 MS. THOMAS: This is Elyse again.

4 I think all of those carryover 

5 items were essentially closed, but they 

6 remained on the agenda simply because of the 

7 linking issue.

8 OTIB-21-04, all of the others 

9 except for 51-01, you know, there's four 

10 listed there, they are all closed in the 

11 database. 51-01 was the only one that was not 

12 actually closed. In other words, the status 

13 was not changed.

14 But I agree with Steve it should 

15 be the same as the others. In other words, it 

16 should be closed. I think the technical 

17 discussions or approaches were agreed upon. 

18 It was just a linking issue, and now that is 

19 corrected.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: So, just --

21 CHAIR MUNN: Shall we change it at 

22 this moment or shall we wait until we get to 
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1 the proper spot?

2 MR. KATZ: Why not close them?

3 CHAIR MUNN: Dick, are you still 

4 with us?

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes, I am.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Do you have any 

7 objection to our closing this item now?

8 MEMBER LEMEN: No, I don't. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: I think it is a 

11 good idea.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Where is the 

13 attachment? Am I looking at the wrong one? 

14 Are you finding the attachments?

15 CHAIR MUNN: Well, the very bottom 

16 one. You have to go through about five, six, 

17 and then at the very bottom you will find 

18 George's.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: A big improvement 

20 over the old database with this database is 

21 that you can have multiple attachments to one 

22 finding. The old database, if you remember, 
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1 we were limited to just a single attachment.

2 MR. STIVER: In theory, there is 

3 no limit.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: In theory, there is 

5 no limit.

6 DR. ULSH: There must be some 

7 limit, but --

8 (Laughter.)

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, I am at the 

10 bottom of it.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: What is going on? 

12 Paul doesn't have the last entry. And he 

13 also doesn't have 51-03.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is 51-01.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: No, see, he 

16 doesn't have the last entry. But, then, you 

17 also have 51-04, and my next one is 51-03.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is 51-01. 

19 OTIB-51-01.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

21 MR. STIVER: Finding 1.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: There is --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: There is all that 

2 stuff.

3 CHAIR MUNN: There is the long 

4 one.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, all the long 

6 one.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: No attached file. 

8 No attached. The third one, no attached.

9 CHAIR MUNN: The fourth one --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: No attached file.

11 CHAIR MUNN: The fifth one --

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: I don't have a 

13 fifth one.

14 CHAIR MUNN: And the sixth one is 

15 George's.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: How did you get to 

17 where you are? How did you get to this 

18 application?

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: I just expanded 

20 it.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but, I mean, 

22 the entire database, how did you get here to 
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1 start it?

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Let me go back.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm wondering 

4 because it seems like you have got an old one.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: That is what I was 

6 wondering, too.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: I sorted on TIBs.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, but just 

9 close the thing. Just close out the database 

10 altogether.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, go out?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Just close out the 

13 database.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Close it out?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, and then go 

17 back?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: And now, how did 

19 you get here?

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, well, you have 

21 got to open it through the -- pull it up here 

22 in order to use this. Then I went to the 
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1 TIBs. Then, I guess it was on page 3. I 

2 expanded this.

3 MR. KATZ: I am going to 

4 interrupt. I am going to close the record 

5 just for now because this is all completely

6 process discussion. It is not really useful 

7 for the transcript. So, we will reopen it 

8 when we are back to work.

9 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

10 went off the record at 9:55 a.m. and went back 

11 on the record at 9:56 a.m.)

12 MR. KATZ: Back on the record. 

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Are we back on the 

14 record?

15 Now are we closing OTIB-51-01?

16 CHAIR MUNN: You bet. We have 

17 heard no objection, and the statement seems to 

18 be fairly straightforward. We have completed 

19 the requirement of the linking, and that is 

20 all that was necessary for that particular 

21 finding. So, that one is now closed.

22 MR. STIVER: If I refresh, it 
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1 should come up as closed.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: No, not yet. Give 

3 me a second.

4 (Laughter.)

5 CHAIR MUNN: Now does anyone else 

6 have anything they need to say or ask about 

7 the database before we move on to our next 

8 item?

9 MR. KATZ: Just a question. I 

10 don't have the agenda in front of me, but 

11 didn't we have a few of these linking items?

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we have got them 

13 under carry forward, yes.

14 MR. KATZ: They could all be 

15 closed, then, I guess, the same way. It is 

16 the same problem, right?

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Elyse says they all 

18 were closed except for 51-01.

19 MR. KATZ: Oh, okay.

20 DR. ULSH: I think they are 

21 individual agenda items. As we walk through 

22 them, that might very well be the resolution 
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1 then.

2 MR. KATZ: No, I am saying we 

3 could just close them now.

4 MR. STIVER: I believe she said 

5 they were closed technically, but they still 

6 were open.

7 MR. KATZ: Right, right. So, just 

8 as we have closed this formally now, we could 

9 close the rest, the other two or three, or 

10 whatever they are.

11 MS. THOMAS: Yes, the others are 

12 closed.

13 MR. KATZ: Oh, they are?

14 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

15 CHAIR MUNN: We were only carrying 

16 them on our agenda here as an agreement that 

17 Elyse and I would track them to make sure that 

18 the linking did occur.

19 MR. KATZ: Got it. Thank you.

20 CHAIR MUNN: That it is going to 

21 occur.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: The link of the PDF 
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1 file has been implemented. Thus, the 

2 Subcommittee has closed this finding.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: I am confused about 

5 the closing. Are you saying that OTIB-21-04, 

6 OTIB-47-02, OTIB-19, all of those on the 

7 agenda are closed?

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, they were closed 

9 already. In prior meetings, we had closed 

10 them because all of the actions were complete. 

11 What was not complete was the link to the 

12 supporting documents that would make it 

13 possible for us to track what had happened and 

14 what the final resolution was. The document 

15 was out there, but it was not connected in any 

16 way to the database.

17 MEMBER LEMEN: So, does that mean 

18 on our agenda on carryover items that we still 

19 have TIB-10 and --

20 CHAIR MUNN: That's correct. We 

21 are still looking at TIBs.

22 MEMBER LEMEN: That is all we have 
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1 on there.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Ten is an entirely 

3 different thing.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: Then, that is the 

5 only thing we have left on the agenda for the 

6 carryover items, right?

7 CHAIR MUNN: We have TIB-10. We 

8 have TIB-13, and we have --

9 MEMBER LEMEN: Right. I'm sorry, 

10 I missed that. Yes.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we have 52, and 

12 we have added 6.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: But all the others 

14 are closed out?

15 CHAIR MUNN: The ones that are 

16 closed out are OTIB-21-04. Today we closed 

17 out OTIB-51-01.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: Right.

19 CHAIR MUNN: We have already 

20 closed out OTIB-47-02 --

21 MEMBER LEMEN: Right.

22 CHAIR MUNN: -- and OTIB-19.
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Right. Okay, I'm 

2 with you now. Thank you.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Okay? Thank you.

4 Very good. Our next item is 

5 OTIB-70, status, changes and update. It is, I 

6 believe, NIOSH's response.

7 DR. ULSH: And I am going to call 

8 on Elyse.

9 MS. THOMAS: Okay, and I will call 

10 on Mutty.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Before we move on, 

13 I can't get the status on OTIB-51-01, I can't 

14 get the status to change, speaking of beta 

15 versions and bugs in the beta version.

16 I go in. You guys can test me 

17 out, but I have done it twice now. I add a 

18 response. Wait a minute.

19 MR. STIVER: Maybe it is in the 

20 comment field.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Maybe I am doing it 

22 wrong. Added status. Maybe I am doing it 
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1 wrong. Okay. Never mind. Operator error.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Let's see if it 

3 works.

4 MR. KATZ: Closed, yes.

5 Mutty, you can continue.

6 MR. SHARFI: Okay. Did you want 

7 me to go through them one-by-one or?

8 CHAIR MUNN: For 70? Yes, I think 

9 that is probably a good idea.

10 MR. SHARFI: The first finding I 

11 believe deals with the 1 percent per day 

12 source-term depletion rate as it compares to 

13 the resuspension factor that is recommended.

14 Basically, the 1 percent per day 

15 has been revised. This was already done 

16 inside the Norton ER. I believe SC&A reviewed 

17 that part. It has been changed to a .067 

18 percent per day. This is based on other sites 

19 that have actually done calculated source-term 

20 depletion rates, Blockson, Dow Madison, 

21 General Atomics, Simond Saw, General Steel.

22 We have used that data to 
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1 recalculate a generic source-term depletion 

2 rate. That is being now updated and OTIB-70 

3 is currently being revised to include that new 

4 value.

5 We should be pretty close, if you 

6 use the SC&A approach to calculate our 

7 resuspension factor. I think it gives you 

8 pretty close to a value of 1E minus 6.

9 Do you any comments or shall I 

10 just move on?

11 CHAIR MUNN: No, hold on a minute 

12 because I have a question as to how your 

13 report now goes into our database.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it sounds to 

15 me as if we now need to enter essentially what 

16 Mutty said --

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: -- into the 

19 database.

20 MR. STIVER: You have to add a 

21 response.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Then, you add a 
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1 response. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: And so, at that 

4 point or now, I guess at that point, then, 

5 SC&A may want to look and see, is this 

6 satisfactory? What we actually write there, 

7 is this a satisfactory closure to the finding? 

8 And if they concur, then, theoretically, they 

9 could provide recommendations and put this in 

10 abeyance until that document is revised.

11 MR. KATZ: Well, they may be able 

12 to respond to some of these in real time, I 

13 mean during our meeting here.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean, I 

15 don't know if you guys want to --

16 MR. KATZ: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: The discussion on 

18 that has occurred elsewhere.

19 MR. KATZ: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: It has occurred in 

21 another Work Group meeting.

22 MR. STIVER: From what Mutty said, 
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1 he is basically concurring with our 

2 recommendation.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes.

4 MR. STIVER: It is just a matter, 

5 has it gone into the document yet?

6 MR. KATZ: That's what I am 

7 saying.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: We have accepted 

9 the fact of 1 percent a day isn't right, and 

10 we have proposed a different value in whatever 

11 site that was. I believe we have some 

12 comments from that Work Group on that value.

13 MR. STIVER: Yes, this was 

14 discussed in detail --

15 CHAIR MUNN: I believe so, yes.

16 MR. STIVER: -- at the last 

17 meeting.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And so, we 

19 can do whatever we want, I mean whatever the 

20 Work Group is comfortable with, the 

21 Subcommittee is comfortable with.

22 CHAIR MUNN: My question, does 
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1 SC&A concur with Mutty's report?

2 MR. STIVER: Yes.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Then, is our only 

4 action that is necessary not to simply report 

5 that here, that NIOSH indicates this change is 

6 being made; SC&A accepts that? The item is 

7 closed. Do we need to do anything other than 

8 that? All we need to do is an entry here now, 

9 right?

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do we have copies 

11 of his words?

12 MR. STIVER: We would need to 

13 actually verify that it is in the document as 

14 stated.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: It would be not 

16 closed; it is in abeyance.

17 MR. STIVER: So, I think it should 

18 be changed to in abeyance at this point.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, in abeyance. 

20 In abeyance.

21 MR. STIVER: Until we can actually 

22 verify that, yes, it has been.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: That's fine.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do we have a copy 

3 of what he just gave us?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't.

5 MR. STIVER: I do not have an 

6 extra copy of that.

7 CHAIR MUNN: I am sure it is 

8 possible for him to email that to you today.

9 MR. STIVER: Mutty, this is John 

10 Stiver.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know that 

12 he has got anything written.

13 MR. KATZ: It will be entered into 

14 the database. I mean, that would be the way 

15 to do this. So, it doesn't need a separate 

16 email.

17 MS. THOMAS: This is Elyse.

18 I have those responses, and NIOSH 

19 has looked at them. I thought I had entered 

20 them into the database, and they are not in 

21 there. If the Subcommittee or NIOSH would 

22 like, and you can give me like 30 minutes, I 
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1 can get those entered. And then, when you go 

2 through the OTIB-70 items, you will see the 

3 responses as well. If that would make it 

4 easier for the Subcommittee, I would just need 

5 a little bit of time to get that done.

6 CHAIR MUNN: That would be most 

7 helpful, Elyse, if you would.

8 MS. THOMAS: Okay.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, I would like 

10 to see the wording on that, if she has that. 

11 But just informally, so instead of the 10 to 

12 the minus 6, what is the new number? Is it 

13 .67 times --

14 MR. STIVER: It was to match the 

15 depletion rate, the source term depletion rate 

16 with resuspension factor.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: The value that we 

18 are backing away from is not necessarily the 

19 10 to the minus 6, although we may have done 

20 that also. The value we are backing away from 

21 is the 1 percent per day depletion --

22 CHAIR MUNN: The 1 percent, 
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1 correct.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, right. Okay. 

3 Okay, yes.

4 DR. MAURO: The resuspension 

5 factor did not change. 

6 This is John Mauro. Maybe I could 

7 help out.

8 When we discussed this, we all 

9 agreed that there was a linkage between the 

10 resuspension factor and the rate at which it 

11 would decline. Under circumstances where the 

12 site has been cleaned up already --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

14 DR. MAURO: -- the 10 to the minus 

15 6 holds, and we are fine with that. Under 

16 circumstances where the site has not been 

17 cleaned up and you've got loose contamination, 

18 the resuspension factor could be quite a bit 

19 higher.

20 And it turns out that the rate of 

21 removal is linked to that resuspension factor. 

22 I recall Jim indicating that they have some 
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1 evidence that the rate of removal goes down 

2 substantially when the resuspension factor is 

3 very low, for obvious reasons. And the number 

4 that Jim cited when we discussed this -- and 

5 perhaps, Elyse, when you put this together --

6 this story could be told in sort of like a 

7 summary fashion.

8 I remember a number, instead of 1 

9 percent per day, it might go down to .05 

10 percent per day, on that order, like a 

11 twentyfold change in the rate at which it 

12 declines. But they are not independent. It 

13 was agreed during the discussion that the two 

14 are linked. So, that might help a little when 

15 we try to capture the sentiment here in the 

16 attachment that will go with this.

17 DR. BEHLING: John, this is Hans 

18 Behling. I just want to make a comment.

19 I tend to agree with you in a 

20 sense that there is a linkage between the 

21 resuspension factor and the depletion rate. 

22 However, it is not one-to-one.
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1 I mean, just conceptually 

2 speaking, think about the situation where you 

3 had a facility that was hermetically sealed, 

4 where there is no expulsion of resuspended 

5 particles by way of a ventilation system, 

6 where you would have, essentially, a 

7 resuspension factor that remains around 

8 essentially constant with zero depletion. Now 

9 I am not saying that you don't remove some of 

10 the resuspended material by virtue of a 

11 ventilation system that may have HEPA filters 

12 or something else. However, I don't think it 

13 is a one-to-one relationship. To match the 

14 resuspension factor to the depletion rate on a 

15 one-to-one basis may not be correct.

16 DR. MAURO: And I agree. I 

17 believe that that sensibility was captured in 

18 Jim's proposed strategy for revising OTIB-70. 

19 I know when we discussed it, in principle, we 

20 all agreed, yes, you're right, I mean, it 

21 could be somewhat complex. But, apparently, 

22 Jim had some empirical data which showed the 
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1 rate of decline that he is prepared to work 

2 into OTIB-70.

3 So, I mean, really, what we are 

4 really saying here, I guess, is there is a 

5 record in the transcript where this issue was 

6 discussed. At the time of that discussion, 

7 SC&A agreed in principle that that strategy 

8 was a reasonable strategy to take. I guess it 

9 would be a good idea to capture that sense in 

10 an attachment to closing this issue, or at 

11 least putting it in abeyance.

12 MR. STIVER: John, this is John 

13 Stiver.

14 Essentially, that is what is 

15 included in the comment by Steve, as of 

16 December 30th, 2010. This discussion is there 

17 in the database.

18 DR. MAURO: It is? Oh, okay.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is.

20 MR. STIVER: It is there.

21 CHAIR MUNN: And we all remember 

22 it very well. This is one of those items that 
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1 verged on categorization as an overarching 

2 issue because it affected so many sites.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes.

4 CHAIR MUNN: But you can't apply 

5 it broad-brush to all sites, obviously. But 

6 this was agreed to, and we've covered this one 

7 very thoroughly from a variety of sources. It 

8 should be, in my view, now closed. We have 

9 what I consider to be full technical agreement 

10 that, certainly, in most cases the definitions 

11 that we have laid out are going to be 

12 applicable and will be both claimant-favorable 

13 and highly defensible from a technical point 

14 of view.

15 MR. STIVER: Wanda, this is John 

16 Stiver again.

17 I recall in going through the 

18 transcript now, to account for what Hans is 

19 bringing up, that each individual site would 

20 have to be looked at.

21 CHAIR MUNN: That's correct.

22 MR. STIVER: Yes.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: That's correct.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. It was 

3 more of a methodology.

4 MR. STIVER: Yes, it was more it 

5 would be a generalized methodology.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, what NIOSH was 

9 saying today, basically they are agreeing with 

10 what we have here then?

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

12 MR. STIVER: Yes.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: And it is agreeing 

14 to an approach as opposed to a number.

15 MR. STIVER: Exactly.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

17 MR. STIVER: My only concern about 

18 whether to close it or keep it in abeyance is 

19 whether that language has actually gone into 

20 TIB-70.

21 CHAIR MUNN: I understand.

22 MS. THOMAS: This is Elyse again. 
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1 Excuse me for interrupting.

2 But I went ahead and added the 

3 NIOSH response for Finding 01, OTIB-70, 

4 Finding 01. So, I think if you refresh your 

5 screens, you might be able to see that. And I 

6 will go on and do the others as you are 

7 discussing it, but I think, if you refresh 

8 your screen, you ought to see a new response 

9 added there at the end of the string.

10 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Elyse.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you, Elyse, 

12 very much.

13 MR. STIVER: And there it is, by 

14 Mutty, as of today. The time is a little off, 

15 though, 12:00 a.m.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: There it is. 

18 Okay.

19 MR. STIVER: The very last line 

20 is, the OTIB is currently being revised to 

21 reflect this change. And so, I know we would 

22 go into abeyance until we actually verify that 
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1 it is in the document.

2 MR. KATZ: Right.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, the .00067 is 

4 a default, if you don't have the actual data, 

5 is that correct?

6 DR. BEHLING: That is correct.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Otherwise, you 

8 would use the starting and ending point.

9 MR. STIVER: Right.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. Okay.

11 DR. MAURO: We always prefer to 

12 use actual scientific --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

14 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Are we 

15 good?

16 MR. KATZ: So, Steve will put 

17 abeyance?

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. It will show in 

19 abeyance.

20 MR. KATZ: And, Mutty, I guess you 

21 can move on. No?

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, again, are 
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1 you going to give Elyse a chance to enter --

2 MR. KATZ: I think she is doing 

3 that.

4 MS. THOMAS: Yes. If you would 

5 refresh your screen again, you should be able 

6 to discuss Finding 02.

7 MR. SHARFI: A lot of 02 is going 

8 to be similar to 01. This is a lot of 

9 discussion once again on the resuspension 

10 factor and the source term depletion rates and 

11 how they interact. The response is actually 

12 identical, I think, to Finding 1.

13 This is, rather than talking about 

14 the resuspension factor, we are talking about 

15 resuspension rates and how they apply to the 

16 source term depletion rate.

17 Based on this comment, we would 

18 still probably put this in abeyance if 

19 everybody still agrees --

20 CHAIR MUNN: That is correct.

21 MR. KATZ: Right.

22 MR. SHARFI: -- as a result of 
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1 that issue.

2 CHAIR MUNN: We agree. Let's abey 

3 it.

4 MR. SHARFI: Finding 3 is going to 

5 be the identical way. It is a direct comment 

6 about the 1 percent per day. Finding 1 was 

7 really more about the resuspension factor. 

8 Finding 2 is more about the resuspension rate. 

9 And Finding 3 is the direct statement on the 

10 1 percent per day. One, 2, and 3 are kind of 

11 all interrelated.

12 And so, the comments, the response 

13 is still the same. The fact that the average 

14 depletion rate of the four sites that is going 

15 to be used is going to change the 1 percent 

16 per day to the 0.00067 per day rate.

17 MR. STIVER: So, that one can go 

18 into abeyance, as well.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Correct, 2 and 3 both 

20 go into abeyance. We probably need to have 

21 the comment that refers it back to Finding 1.

22 MR. SHARFI: Finding 4 is already 
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1 closed. Finding 5 deals with attachment B. 

2 There is thorium intake rates or survey data 

3 that is provided for generic sites. However, 

4 this data has never been used, and we have no 

5 intention of using it. So, this attachment is 

6 actually going to be removed from the OTIB 

7 during the revision.

8 CHAIR MUNN: And do we say that?

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Which one is this?

10 CHAIR MUNN: Five.

11 MR. SHARFI: Five.

12 MS. THOMAS: Yes, if you refresh 

13 your screen, you should be able to see the 

14 response for 5.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: How about 3?

16 MS. THOMAS: Three, yes. I 

17 entered 3, as well.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Both 2 and 3 have 

19 gone into abeyance.

20 MR. SHARFI: Finding 6 will be the 

21 same.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda, is it 
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1 changed to in abeyance?

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, on my screen 2 

3 and 3 are changed to abeyance. I have not yet 

4 seen the change on 5.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Do you want 5 

6 changed?

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: It has been 

9 entered. It is here.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, the response 

11 is there.

12 MR. SHARFI: Five and 6 are 

13 interrelated. They are both the same thing. 

14 One is specific to one of the sites listed; 6 

15 is specific to the Horizon site. But, once 

16 again, the whole attachment is being deleted. 

17 So, 6 will have the same NIOSH response. 

18 That Attachment B is being deleted in the next 

19 revision of the OTIB.

20 CHAIR MUNN: And No. 9?

21 MR. SHARFI: Nine is still part of 

22 Attachment B. It is another site-specific 
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1 question. It has to do with the Linde data 

2 that is inside Attachment B. Once again, 

3 Attachment B will be deleted. So, 9 should 

4 follow 5 and 6.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Elsye, are you 

6 entering the response to 6?

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is in.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: It is?

9 MS. THOMAS: I am trying. I am 

10 getting an error message here. So, I am not 

11 able to go on to 9 or 10. I was about one 

12 step ahead of you and now I'm not.

13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I wanted to 

15 wait until you entered the response before I 

16 closed Finding 6 or I put Finding 6 in 

17 abeyance.

18 MS. THOMAS: Yes. See, my screen 

19 says that Finding 6 in abeyance, and I am 

20 wondering if that is why I am having trouble 

21 saving it. But I am going to get out of 6 and 

22 move on to 9 and 10, and see if I can enter 
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1 those before you discuss them, and then I will 

2 go back to 6.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Elyse, sometimes 

4 when you enter the finding, when you enter a 

5 new comment for a finding and you put somebody 

6 else's name, the database has a tendency to 

7 change the status of the finding. So, you 

8 might want to check that. Make sure that when 

9 you enter your comments under 6 that, when you 

10 click the Save --

11 MS. THOMAS: Okay.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: -- it still saved 

13 as in progress.

14 MS. THOMAS: Okay. I just tried 

15 that. Let's see. That seemed to take. Okay. 

16 Very good. Thank you.

17 You can look at 6, Finding 6, and 

18 I will get 9 and 10 entered here.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Nine doesn't show 

20 up.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: So, the status on 6 

22 is now in abeyance.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Here it is, yes.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Nine is already in 

3 abeyance. Ten is the next one.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think Elyse is 

5 working on it right now.

6 MS. THOMAS: Yes, give me a 

7 minute, please, on 10.

8 DR. MAURO: I would like to say it 

9 is really great to see we are back in real10 time mode again. It has been a while.

11 (Laughter.)

12 Congratulations.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is nice, 

14 isn't it?

15 MR. KATZ: I agree, John.

16 MR. STIVER: It took some time, 

17 but we got that.

18 CHAIR MUNN: It seems boring at 

19 the moment, but it is great at the end of the 

20 day.

21 DR. MAURO: Now all we need is 

22 that summary table to see how much progress we 
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1 made during the day.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Exactly. We're never 

3 satisfied. Everybody is an expert.

4 MS. THOMAS: Okay, 10 should be 

5 ready to go. Thank you.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you.

7 MR. SHARFI: Number 10 is directly 

8 about the 1E minus 6 resuspension factor. 

9 This goes to what John was alluding to before 

10 about when it is appropriate and whether or 

11 not higher numbers can be used.

12 This generically for NIOSH is that 

13 four sites that have been cleaned up and you 

14 are applying a generic resuspension factor of 

15 the 1E to the minus 6. It is claimant16 favorable, not only because we are applying it 

17 generically to all contamination, not just the 

18 removable. We have to remember that 

19 resuspension factors are really more designed 

20 for the removal fraction, not the total 

21 surface contamination. And generically, we 

22 apply this to all, you know, the total 
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1 contamination level. So, there is an inherent 

2 factor that is built in because we are not 

3 looking at just removable contamination.

4 However, the OTIB is not locking 

5 anybody into the 1E minus 6. If there are 

6 situations, as John alluded to, where a higher 

7 resuspension factor is needed, the OTIB allows 

8 for that. The default is still listed as 1E 

9 minus 6.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Is this a change? 

11 I mean --

12 MR. SHARFI: Not really.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically, the 

14 same?

15 MR. SHARFI: We are still in the 

16 OTIB list of 1E to minus 6 as the default, but 

17 noting that it is guidance; it is not a fixed 

18 number that you have to use.

19 MR. KATZ: That is different from 

20 before.

21 DR. MAURO: Is there language in 

22 there that it is appropriate to use when the 
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1 site has gone through some D&D? I would just 

2 suggest that that type of language is 

3 important because that is really when it 

4 applies.

5 We have many, many circumstances 

6 at AWE sites where the sites, you know, the 10 

7 to the minus 6 was used in the past, when the 

8 site still had visible surface contamination. 

9 So, I mean, certainly, put as much qualifier 

10 in as you feel is appropriate, but I just want 

11 to caution that 10 to the minus 6 worked out 

12 just fine, for example, I believe it was on 

13 Linde after there was a D&D period. But a 

14 number of other sites we found it didn't work 

15 out. So, as long as there is cautionary 

16 language in there, I think the dose 

17 reconstructor will be okay.

18 MR. SHARFI: I will have to check, 

19 John. I don't have it in front of me, the 

20 revision, but I can check to see if there is 

21 language that helps clarify that situation.

22 DR. ANIGSTEIN: This is Bob 
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1 Anigstein.

2 I would like to interject a 

3 comment just about a statement that was made a 

4 moment ago, about the resuspension factor 

5 applying to removable contamination. 

6 Historically, the literature on resuspension 

7 factors that I am familiar with describes 

8 resuspension in terms of total contamination. 

9 I am talking about if you could measure with 

10 a survey meter or some other radiation11 measuring device. Whereas, removal of 

12 contamination really depends on the technique 

13 you use with a wipe test.

14 That is not the way it is usually 

15 -- I mean, logically, you say, if it is not 

16 removable, it can't be resuspended. But I 

17 believe that the literature refers to total 

18 contamination.

19 DR. MAURO: I could help a little 

20 bit, too, there, Bob.

21 You are correct. When you folks 

22 use resuspension factors, as applied to 
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1 surface contamination, your starting point for 

2 the surface contamination more times than not 

3 is based on this deposition velocity approach, 

4 where you know the dust loading in the air and 

5 you use that .0075 meters per second 

6 deposition.

7 So, when you do it that way, it is 

8 total. In other words, what you end up 

9 calculating is dpm per meter squared, and it 

10 is total.

11 However, as Bob correctly points 

12 out, there are occasions, though, when the 

13 activity, surface activity, in dpm per 100 

14 centimeters squared, for example, is based on 

15 a swipes test. Then what you are looking at

16 is the removable material.

17 And then, of course, there are 

18 times when it is based on a survey meter, and 

19 you back out. There are places where this is 

20 done where you say, okay, this is what you 

21 would measure, this is what was measured with 

22 a survey meter. And on that basis, you could 
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1 figure out what would be on the surface from 

2 the survey meter. In all likelihood, that 

3 would be the total.

4 So, unfortunately, I think we have 

5 a bit of a mixed bag. But I would say that, 

6 notwithstanding that the 10 to the minus 6 

7 probably holds up pretty good, as a rule of 

8 thumb, I know Reg Guide 1.86 -- and, Bob, you 

9 could correct me -- assumes that 20 percent of 

10 whatever the total is is the removable 

11 fraction.

12 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No, they have 

13 separate limits on total and removable. I 

14 don't have it in front of me. They state them 

15 separately.

16 DR. MAURO: Yes.

17 DR. ANIGSTEIN: They say so many 

18 dpm total, so many dpm removable. And it may 

19 be that it is 20 percent, but it is two 

20 separate limitations. You will not exceed the 

21 total and you will not exceed the removable.

22 CHAIR MUNN: We have discussed 
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1 this at length, and we have agreed to the 

2 caveat that, although this is in many respects 

3 an overarching issue, we must take into 

4 consideration the situation that exists at 

5 individual sites. So, I think we have put the 

6 issue to bed. I believe everybody concerned 

7 understands what the caveats are and what the 

8 limits are within which we have to operate 

9 when we do this.

10 DR. MAURO: Wanda, we accept your 

11 admonition, and Bob and I will tone it down.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you. You see, 

13 we are running a little late, and we are past 

14 time for a break.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: I did have a 

16 question, though. I notice in the previous 

17 comment by Rosanna, which was dated in August, 

18 she has a quote that says, "NIOSH recommends a 

19 resuspension factor of 10 to the minus 6 per 

20 meter is inappropriate." Is that a correct 

21 quote?

22 MR. MARSCHKE: I would have to 
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1 check that. What Rose did was, back in last 

2 January, we had a meeting and we discussed 

3 OTIB-70, but the database wasn't working. And 

4 so, when the database became working, I asked 

5 Rose to go through all the transcripts and 

6 pull out the appropriate, if we talked about 

7 something. And she pulled this out. I'm not 

8 sure, it is kind of out of context. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is out of 

10 context because it stands contrary to what 

11 they were recommending.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: If we take a break, 

13 I would like to go to the January 2011 

14 transcript and pull up page 263 and see what 

15 it is exactly saying there.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: And then, just a 

17 comment here. I think Mutty's most recent 

18 comment addresses the issues that Bob and John 

19 have raised.

20 My understanding is that this 

21 applies to clean sites, and even there, NIOSH 

22 is assuming, even though we agree that, in 
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1 general, on a clean site there is not much 

2 loose contamination; in a dirty site it is 

3 maybe 10 to 20 percent removable.

4 But, in any event, this says that 

5 NIOSH is assuming that all of the 

6 contamination on the surface is potentially 

7 removable, and that you apply the 10 to the 

8 minus 6 to that, even though, in practice, it 

9 is almost 100 percent fixed. I think that 

10 took into consideration all of these issues 

11 that were raised again this morning, because 

12 we have had this discussion about five times 

13 already in the past.

14 Anyway, I was a little puzzled by 

15 the previous remark that is in here that NIOSH 

16 is not recommending that.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: It is a little bit 

18 out of context here, Paul, and we would have 

19 to go back and look at the transcript.

20 MR. STIVER: We can go back and 

21 check that transcript.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, and find out 
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1 exactly what it means.

2 Wanda, if you want to take a 

3 break, we can look at it during our break.

4 CHAIR MUNN: This is an 

5 appropriate time for us to do so. Fifteen 

6 minutes, please.

7 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

8 went off the record at 10:33 a.m. and went 

9 back on the record at 10:52 a.m.)

10 MR. KATZ: Okay. We are 

11 reconvening.

12 Dick, are you back on the line?

13 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes, this is Dick.

14 MR. KATZ: Great. Okay. We are 

15 getting started again.

16 CHAIR MUNN: I believe we have 

17 come to the conclusion that we are going to 

18 edit OTIB-70-10/36, not Mutty's, but the 

19 preceding one from August 5th. It is 

20 misleading in its language and we are 

21 refreshing that right now.

22 Thank you, Paul, for calling that 
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1 to our attention.

2 Thank you, Steve, for doing that.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. So, that has 

4 been changed, Paul.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: I just need to 

6 refresh, then?

7 CHAIR MUNN: Refreshing is less 

8 than a refreshing activity.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. STIVER: Maybe we should give 

11 it a new name.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, that is good.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: What did the 

14 Subcommittee decide on the status? Have they 

15 decided on the status?

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

17 MR. STIVER: Another aspect of the 

18 10 to the minus 6 being --

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

20 CHAIR MUNN: It is more of an in 

21 abeyance.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I almost hate to 
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1 bring this up. This is Stu.

2 It is not clear to me from the 

3 most recent response from us, the one that 

4 just went in --

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: For which one?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: This is --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Ten?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: -- 70-10. It has 

9 got Mutty's name on it, 12-6-2011, NIOSH 

10 response. It is not clear to me that we are 

11 saying that we are going to edit OTIB-70. It 

12 seems to say that -- Mutty, since you were the 

13 one who was talking about this, are you saying 

14 here in this response that the OTIB already 

15 says that 10 to the minus 6 isn't chiseled in 

16 concrete; it is just out there and it has to 

17 be --

18 MR. SHARFI: I committed to John 

19 to verify whether it does leave the caveat in, 

20 whether there is a caveat in there, and if 

21 not, then I will add the caveat.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. All right.
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1 MR. SHARFI: I wasn't really 

2 committing either way because I have to go 

3 back and look at what is currently in the 

4 hopper.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. All right.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Are we all on the 

7 same page now?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: So, we are all on 

9 the same page, except we don't know what the 

10 status is going to be, right?

11 MR. KATZ: In abeyance.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is going to be 

13 in abeyance.

14 CHAIR MUNN: It is in abeyance.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Steve is 

16 doing it now? Okay. All right.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: A quick question, 

18 you used plural "caveats" and then "a caveat". 

19 Is there more than one.

20 MR. STIVER: No, it is just a 

21 caveat.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: It has 
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1 inappropriate caveats then.

2 MR. STIVER: Single.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

4 CHAIR MUNN: So, where are we now?

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, this will be 

6 in abeyance, is that right?

7 CHAIR MUNN: In abeyance, correct.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay?

9 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

10 Now next is -- where did we 

11 leave --

12 MR. KATZ: Mutty --

13 MR. SHARFI: Yes?

14 MR. KATZ: Finding 10 is in 

15 abeyance, and then we are ready to move on.

16 MR. SHARFI: Okay. Eleven deals 

17 with the NUREG-1400 approach that was inside 

18 the OTIB-70. It talks about source-term 

19 analysis approach. There seemed to be some 

20 question on whether or not it is applicable. 

21 We have never really used this approach. It 

22 was just something that was inside the OTIB. 
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1 So, we just agreed to remove it from the OTIB, 

2 and that is currently being done in the 

3 current revision.

4 MR. KATZ: Does SC&A concur with 

5 that?

6 CHAIR MUNN: Well, it was their 

7 finding.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically, it seems 

9 like they were taking -- we had problems with 

10 NUREG-1400 and how they have committed to not 

11 using NUREG-1400. I don't believe we have 

12 any --

13 DR. MAURO: We have never used the 

14 approach, I think, on anything else.

15 MR. STIVER: Since it is being 

16 removed, I don't see that we have any --

17 MR. KATZ: Yes, I just wanted to 

18 be explicitly --

19 MR. STIVER: I was just reading 

20 our previous response up here.

21 MR. KATZ: Right.

22 CHAIR MUNN: You may close it.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Close it or in 

2 abeyance? In abeyance.

3 MR. KATZ: In abeyance until the 

4 new document is out.

5 CHAIR MUNN: I guess it does need 

6 to be taken out.

7 MR. SHARFI: Ready for 12?

8 MR. KATZ: Sure, Mutty.

9 MR. SHARFI: Twelve has to do with 

10 a reference to Battelle-TBD-6001. Yes, 

11 Battelle-6001 has been cancelled, based on the 

12 Battelle Working Group recommendations or 

13 discussion that has gone through there. So, 

14 all references to Battelle-6001 is being 

15 -- I'm sorry, this is No. 13, not 12. Twelve 

16 is already addressed. This is 13. Basically, 

17 all references to Battelle-TBD-6001 are being 

18 removed.

19 MR. STIVER: This is Stiver.

20 I am looking at Steve Marschke's 

21 comment from Thursday, December 30th, 2010. 

22 This was a comment by Bill Thurber that this 
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1 could be also be a residual problem. Even 

2 though NIOSH decides to eliminate TBD-6001 and 

3 the appendices, this is in relation to the 

4 inhalation doses in TBD-6001 prior to 1948 and 

5 extrapolating those backward in time.

6 So, I guess as long as the 

7 residual period was after 1948, this would not 

8 be an issue. So, that was kind of nested with 

9 this whole discussion of removing TBD-6001.

10 John Mauro, do you have any more 

11 in-depth understanding of how that transpired? 

12 Are you out there, John?

13 (No response.)

14 CHAIR MUNN: We lost him.

15 MR. KATZ: Do we have anyone on 

16 the line? Dick, are you on the line?

17 DR. BEHLING: This is Hans Behling 

18 on the line. I'm not sure I fully understand 

19 the question.

20 MR. KATZ: Okay.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: This is Dick. I'm 

22 on the line.
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1 MR. KATZ: Okay. Great.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Do you want to try to 

3 call John?

4 MR. STIVER: I am not sure whether 

5 he will have that knowledge at this point.

6 I think that, why don't we just go 

7 ahead and put it in abeyance? And then, we 

8 will look at the changes that take place. I 

9 think was more of a hypothetical comment that, 

10 if in that time period had been considered, 

11 that we might have a problem.

12 CHAIR MUNN: All right. So, it is 

13 in abeyance.

14 Are you ready for 14, Mutty?

15 MR. SHARFI: Fourteen?

16 MS. THOMAS: Excuse me, Mutty, for 

17 interrupting. This is Elyse.

18 And I was not able to add the 

19 responses for Finding 14 or 15. I tried 

20 repeatedly. So, they are short. Maybe Mutty 

21 can read them to you, or whatever you would 

22 like to do. I will try to get that addressed. 
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1 But, right now, those responses are not yet 

2 entered.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Then, we will just 

4 have to do it, hopefully, with what we have. 

5 Do you want to start with 14, Mutty?

6 MR. SHARFI: Yes, 14 goes along 

7 with 13. It is about Battelle-TBD-6001. 

8 Since it is being removed, it is going to fall 

9 in the same lines as 13, where we are removing 

10 all references to the 6001 TBD.

11 It goes, once again, into that 

12 prior-to-1948 situation, which now would be 

13 handled on a site-by-site basis. The OTIB is 

14 just not going to give generic guidance for 

15 pre-'48. It will have to be looked at based 

16 on its individual merits.

17 MR. STIVER: Mutty, this is 

18 Stiver.

19 Is there going to be any change in 

20 the language to indicate that expressly?

21 MR. SHARFI: At pre-'48, you would 

22 have to look at the site-specific situation?
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1 MR. STIVER: Correct.

2 MR. SHARFI: I don't think there 

3 is any specific wording to that. I mean, a 

4 guidance document doesn't give you guidance --

5 I can't give you guidance on every small, 

6 little issue that may come up. So, I don't 

7 know what I would say.

8 MR. STIVER: In any case, this one 

9 would be, as we have put in here in August, it 

10 would be addressed in Finding 13.

11 DR. ULSH: The current status for 

12 14 is in progress. I know that we have a 

13 category called "addressed in finding".

14 MR. STIVER: Yes, so that is --

15 DR. ULSH: Is that what you are 

16 proposing?

17 MR. STIVER: I was proposing that 

18 we change that to addressed in finding because 

19 it is identical to 13.

20 CHAIR MUNN: We had gone back and 

21 forth about that. I think that we did that 

22 earlier, didn't we? Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: It should be 

2 changed.

3 CHAIR MUNN: From our January 

4 meeting last year, we changed it from "in 

5 progress" to "addressed in." It should have 

6 been.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, the original 

8 finding had to do with an approach used in 

9 TBD-6001 for inhalation, is that correct? So, 

10 when 6001 went away, the Work Group that used 

11 to be the 6001 Work Group, which is I think 

12 Henry Anderson's Work Group, now will handle, 

13 as I understand it, those facilities that 

14 would have fallen into the appendices. Is 

15 that correct?

16 MR. KATZ: That is correct. Yes.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, in each case, 

18 since there no longer will be a generic 

19 approach to the inhalation, unless it is taken 

20 from a different document, you would have to 

21 have an individual finding, I would think, for 

22 a particular facility.
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1 MR. STIVER: Right.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because these are 

3 going to go away as generic approaches, is 

4 that correct, my understanding of that? Or, 

5 Stu --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, 6001 is 

7 going away as a generic.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: As a generic.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: It was never 

10 really used very generically anyway.

11 CHAIR MUNN: And from now on, it 

12 will be an individual site.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, one of the 

14 sites now that has an inhalation situation, 

15 would they draw on some other generic document 

16 or would it be site-specific? Or it could be 

17 either, I suppose?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the 

19 approaches would be, the approaches for those 

20 could be site-specific information or there 

21 may be a use of, well, we know that there was 

22 some sort of surrogate use. But it would be 
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1 to address a particular site.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. So, then, 

3 there would be an SC&A review of that 

4 document?

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

6 MR. STIVER: There would be some 

7 further review.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, right.

9 So, I think the solution here is 

10 that it goes away and you just --

11 MR. STIVER: And, then, it becomes 

12 a site-specific issue when something comes 

13 up, and it is addressed within --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: That is the way it 

15 seems to me. I mean, I am not familiar with 

16 -- you know, it says it refers to the 6001, 

17 but you don't really know exactly.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. You are 

19 not using it for anything.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

21 CHAIR MUNN: So, that leaves us 

22 where?
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, it is not 

2 going to be addressed in something else. That 

3 is the point I am making. It says, I think 

4 the last entry I have here for No. -- is it 

5 13?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Fourteen.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Fourteen, the same 

8 as item 13, change to "addressed in". It is 

9 not going to be addressed in something, right?

10 MR. STIVER: Yes, they are 

11 basically the same.

12 MR. SHARFI: It will be addressed 

13 in 13.

14 MR. STIVER: Yes.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, I see.

16 MR. STIVER: Thirteen is getting 

17 rid of --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I got you. I got 

19 you.

20 MR. STIVER: It is 6001 is going 

21 away.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: I got you.
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1 MR. STIVER: It is just two 

2 aspects of that same issue.

3 MR. KATZ: So, you can just close 

4 this one because you have 13, which is in 

5 abeyance, right?

6 MR. STIVER: Isn't that a separate 

7 category "addressed in finding"?

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: What does 

9 "addressed in" mean?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Basically, it is a 

11 resolution of this other finding.

12 MR. STIVER: A lot of these 

13 findings are really all related to the same 

14 basic --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, you say, 

16 "addressed in Finding 13."

17 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I got you.

19 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Are we 

20 finished with 14?

21 MR. KATZ: Yes.

22 CHAIR MUNN: All right. We will 
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1 move on to 15.

2 MR. SHARFI: Fifteen is already in 

3 abeyance.

4 CHAIR MUNN: It is, indeed. And 

5 that is the bottom of my list, am I correct?

6 MR. KATZ: That is correct for 70.

7 CHAIR MUNN: We have, with Mutty's 

8 assistance and Steve's perseverance, gotten 

9 through 70.

10 MR. KATZ: That's good.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Is there anything 

12 open on this? Eleven still shows in progress.

13 MR. KATZ: Eleven is in abeyance.

14 CHAIR MUNN: That is just an 

15 artifact of where I am, I guess.

16 MR. KATZ: Yes.

17 CHAIR MUNN: There it goes.

18 And 14, my 14 is still showing in 

19 progress.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Steve is still 

21 changing that.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, you have got 
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1 to get a faster secretary.

2 (Laughter.)

3 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

4 MR. STIVER: We prefer accuracy to 

5 speed.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. HINNEFELD: It should show up 

8 as "addressed in finding" at this point.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Excellent.

10 MR. KATZ: So, TIB-70, you could 

11 have a two-pager written. Everything is 

12 either closed or in abeyance, is that correct? 

13 Right?

14 CHAIR MUNN: It appears to be.

15 MR. KATZ: So, we can task SC&A 

16 with a two-pager on this.

17 CHAIR MUNN: We can, indeed.

18 Now the next item on our agenda is 

19 the PERs. We have three that were items of 

20 concern.

21 The first one was 008, and the 

22 last time we met Ted said he would take the 
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1 responsibility for seeing that our transcript 

2 notations got over to Dr. Richardson after --

3 did that happen?

4 MR. KATZ: No. You have to remind 

5 me even what notations you mean. Or what was 

6 the issue here?

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: It had to do with 

8 the IREP model, whether there was -- I don't 

9 know the --

10 MR. STIVER: Yes, actually, this 

11 is an issue that Hans had raised about the 

12 time dependence in the Probability of 

13 Causation. It is handled in IREP. Remember, 

14 there were two different situations with that. 

15 Actually, there were more than two.

16 If the onset was like 20 years 

17 later or four years later, you are basically 

18 in the same PoC. So, we agreed that this was 

19 kind of an overarching science issue that 

20 needed to be transferred to that Work Group.

21 MR. KATZ: And this is in the 

22 transcript notations for transcript made --
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1 MR. STIVER: It would have been 

2 the September 30th.

3 MR. KATZ: September?

4 CHAIR MUNN: March 22.

5 MR. KATZ: March 22?

6 CHAIR MUNN: March 22, pages 132 

7 to 184.

8 MR. KATZ: One --

9 CHAIR MUNN: One thirty-two to 

10 184.

11 MR. KATZ: I may have sent those 

12 to David, but I don't recall, because that 

13 would have been so long ago. But I can 

14 double-back and check that.

15 I mean, that fits with what that 

16 Science Work Group has signed up to do, in a 

17 sense, because all of their priorities to date 

18 are risk-model-related work. So, it fits 

19 within that sense. Now they have a long 

20 laundry list, and when that will get addressed 

21 is anybody's guess, given how long their 

22 laundry list is.
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1 But, anyway, I will follow up 

2 after this meeting and check to see either 

3 that I sent those transcript pages or send 

4 them again. I will send them again, in any 

5 event, actually, to David, so that he has 

6 those in mind at least.

7 CHAIR MUNN: And the next item, 

8 018, which was my commitment to do that. Even 

9 though the Los Alamos Group knows what we are 

10 sending to them, I was going to see it that it 

11 got to them in written form and was, frankly, 

12 hoping to see if I could do that in PDF. Now 

13 that I can do it, I will proceed to do so, but 

14 it has not yet been done.

15 And on PER-020, we had a question 

16 with respect to the Blockson division. NIOSH 

17 was going to take a look at the universe of 

18 claims that we had to see whether there 

19 actually would even be any claimants affected 

20 by our items.

21 DR. ULSH: Wanda, I don't --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: What is the date 
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1 of that meeting? I think I asked Tom and I 

2 got an answer. What was the date of the 

3 meeting? This is from the September meeting?

4 MR. STIVER: Right.

5 MR. KATZ: Yes.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically, yes, 

8 September. I have got a note saying Stu will 

9 find out whether these issues affect anyone.

10 MR. STIVER: This is the issue of 

11 Type M uranium --

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Which finding is 

13 it?

14 CHAIR MUNN: Twenty.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Twenty --

16 CHAIR MUNN: On 1 and 2 both.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: One and 2 both.

18 CHAIR MUNN: We had those classes, 

19 and there was one value for uranium, 

20 converting data, inhalation and ingestion. We 

21 were questioning whether it was necessary to 

22 do that work, in light of the fact of the 
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1 probability that there were ever going to be 

2 claimants that would even raise this question 

3 was remote. We were just going to check to 

4 make sure that that was true before we closed 

5 it out.

6 We will carry that one over, 

7 right?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it is going 

9 to take me a minute to find that.

10 CHAIR MUNN: So, all three of 

11 these carryover.

12 MR. KATZ: Folks on the phone, 

13 except when you are speaking, would you please 

14 mute your phones? There is some static coming 

15 back that is giving the transcriber a hard 

16 time.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Now we will move on 

18 to our other carryover items that we had, the 

19 first one being TIB-10.

20 NIOSH was going to review Bob 

21 Anigstein's report and have a position on that 

22 for us.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: TIB-10 is the 

2 overestimating approach?

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is best 

4 estimate, external dose reconstruction 

5 for glove box --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, I have got the 

7 wrong one.

8 DR. ULSH: This is OTIB-10 or 

9 OCAS-TIB-10?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: It is OCAS-TIB-10.

11 DR. ULSH: Okay. I retract my 

12 answer then.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: OCAS-TIB-10.

14 DR. ULSH: Okay. If you can't 

15 find it there, Paul, it might be it had been 

16 changed to DCAS.

17 CHAIR MUNN: It is DCAS-TIB-10.

18 DR. ULSH: Right. The story there 

19 is that it was originally issued as 

20 OCAS-TIB-10. We changed our Division name and 

21 we revised this document. It has been changed 

22 to DCAS-TIB-10.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: How are the DCAS 

2 things sorted under here? I mean, I'm under 

3 TIBs.

4 DR. ULSH: I don't know, but I --

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: No DCASes.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Go back up. Just try 

7 it up there under the Search box.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, if you do a 

9 search on TIB-10, TIB-0010, it will -- the 

10 only problem is it showing these as all being 

11 open issues.

12 DR. ULSH: This is one of those 

13 bugs that we talked about. Let me give you 

14 the status on this, and then I will tell you 

15 why the database appears the way it does.

16 Basically, this is one where we 

17 have been going back and forth on this one for 

18 a long time. It is my summary that the 

19 substantive issues have been addressed, but 

20 there were some examples that we provided in 

21 response to some SC&A findings. While the 

22 overarching or overlying issues have been 
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1 addressed, we are still not in concordance on 

2 some of those examples that we provided.

3 So, I initiated a revision of this 

4 document to take those examples out. That 

5 revision has happened. Those have been 

6 removed, those examples.

7 And so, I have findings written up 

8 that I have not yet transferred to this 

9 Working Group. The reason is we discovered a 

10 bug in the database where some of these in 

11 this situation where they originated in an 

12 OCAS document were changed to a DCAS document, 

13 the findings weren't ported over when we went 

14 from Access to here.

15 So, I worked with Tom James, and I 

16 think we have got that fixed, with the 

17 exception of the status on the findings is not 

18 up-to-date.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

20 DR. ULSH: So, I think the action 

21 item here is for us, NIOSH, to go in and put 

22 our updated finding into the database and 
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1 correct the status on this.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Would you let me 

3 know when you update the status on this?

4 DR. ULSH: Yes. Sure.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Because some of 

6 these, I think, have already been closed when 

7 it was part of OCAS.

8 DR. ULSH: Right. Right.

9 MR. STIVER: Only one. I would 

10 really recommend closing it.

11 DR. ULSH: Oh, yes, absolutely. 

12 Don't trust the finding status on this 

13 particular document because all Tom did was, 

14 when he added the findings, he put a status of 

15 all open. I think Elyse and I can go back and 

16 fix the findings.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, yes. I mean, 

18 all you have got to do is go back to an older 

19 version of the database and call off what the 

20 findings were before --

21 DR. ULSH: Right, right.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: -- when it was 
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1 still OCAS.

2 DR. ULSH: Yes.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know what 

4 the status was when it was OCAS, but to kind 

5 of make DCAS the same.

6 DR. ULSH: Yes, exactly.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Now I am trying to 

8 recall if that is the sense of what I had 

9 intended when I put this on the agenda. 

10 "Anigstein report review", I say, which makes 

11 me wonder if we had not had some other 

12 discussion about Bob's report. I would have 

13 to check the minutes.

14 MR. STIVER: I think the only 

15 finding that was still open was Finding 8 

16 about the modeling using Attila, the glove 

17 box, the film badge, either on the chest or 

18 over --

19 DR. ULSH: I am not sure it was 

20 just 8. My recollection is that there were a 

21 couple of others, but I could be wrong on 

22 that.
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1 MR. STIVER: I am basing this off 

2 of Bob's most recent response here.

3 DR. ULSH: Yes, Finding 8, I think 

4 the original finding was the use of the Attila 

5 software package is questioned. In response 

6 to that, we added some material to the TIB 

7 that was some MCNPX runs. And then, those 

8 examples became a whole issue in and of 

9 themselves that generated a lot of back-and10 forth.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I believe, yes, at 

12 one point we made some -- Bob, are you on the 

13 phone? -- we made some MCNP runs, and I think 

14 NIOSH requested --

15 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, I am. I had 

16 my phone on mute.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: You requested our 

18 input files, and I think that is kind of the 

19 report that is being referred to there. Have 

20 you looked at Bob's MCNP input files and 

21 determined whether or not you can duplicate 

22 his results with those input files?
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1 DR. ULSH: Well, like I said, I 

2 think if the MCNP examples that we provided 

3 are taken out, which they have been, then I 

4 think this issue becomes a moot issue. But 

5 the next step is for me to put those findings 

6 into the database, and you guys to respond to 

7 them.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

9 DR. ANIGSTEIN: This is Bob.

10 There are two things, without 

11 belaboring which issue is which. One, we had 

12 a problem with the use of Attila. That was 

13 more of a procedural, technical issue.

14 But the substantive issue was we 

15 disagree with the correction factors. I mean, 

16 that doesn't go away. Whether you use MCNP or 

17 Attila, that does not go away.

18 We found maybe something like -- I 

19 am quoting from memory now -- but we came up 

20 with something on the order of 3.3 and NIOSH 

21 had something on the order of 2.1, 2.2, 

22 something like that. So, we are about 50 
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1 percent higher in the correction factor.

2 And it is not because we use MCNP 

3 instead of Attila. It is the way the Attila 

4 was applied. It wasn't applied to a single 

5 location. They use Attila because it is 

6 convenient, more convenient than MCNP in 

7 getting a lot of tally results in that mode.

8 And then, they essentially did a 

9 statistical sampling of those tallies. Our 

10 objection was, when an individual comes up for 

11 a dose reconstruction, he has a cancer of a 

12 certain organ, not a range of organs that you 

13 can say, well, statistically, we evaluate all 

14 the organs.

15 So, in a nutshell, that is the 

16 basis of our objection or our findings.

17 DR. ULSH: Right, and I have a 

18 response from the document author. I just 

19 haven't put it into the database yet. It 

20 addresses that issue.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: So, basically, when 

22 we get your response, Bob, you will respond to 
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1 it.

2 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: And if we are still 

4 unsatisfied with it, we will let them know.

5 DR. ULSH: We will have another 

6 round.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: We will have 

8 another round, yes.

9 CHAIR MUNN: All right. So, what 

10 we need to have for next time is -- it is 

11 still in NIOSH's court.

12 DR. ULSH: Right.

13 CHAIR MUNN: We might want to go 

14 back and check. I was making an effort to get 

15 back to our transcript. We had quite a 

16 discussion on it.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: On this item?

18 MR. STIVER: Especially on TIB-10, 

19 in September TIB-10 was just briefly mentioned 

20 and it was deferred until after these changes 

21 had been reviewed. It is on page 150 in the 

22 transcript.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. "Greg had given 

2 some draft responses, but NIOSH wasn't ready 

3 to send it out. Brant said he would have it 

4 for the next meeting."

5 DR. ULSH: Right. I have those 

6 responses. We just did a revision to the TIB. 

7 I just haven't loaded the responses into the 

8 database yet.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

10 DR. ULSH: But I will get that in 

11 by next meeting.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. And then, 

13 we will see what we can do with that.

14 TIB-13, the status.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: So, there are no 

16 changes to -- I am not going to change, 

17 because NIOSH has to clean up the status of 

18 all the issues under TIB-10, I am not going to 

19 try to do anything.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Nothing is changed 

21 today.

22 CHAIR MUNN: No. No, we have gone 
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1 from TIB-10 for now.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

3 CHAIR MUNN: We said we are done 

4 with that at the moment here, and we have gone 

5 on to TIB-13.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is TIB-13 a DCAS 

7 TIB now or is it an OTIB?

8 DR. ULSH: So, we are skipping 

9 over the ones we covered earlier, the 21 

10 and --

11 CHAIR MUNN: We have already 

12 covered those, I do believe.

13 DR. ULSH: All right. Yes.

14 CHAIR MUNN: We have agreed that 

15 21-04, 51-01, 47-02, and OTIB-19 are all taken 

16 care of because the data linkage is now 

17 complete and they are workable. At least that 

18 is what I think we agreed to earlier this 

19 morning.

20 And now, we are searching for 

21 TIB-13.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: There is no TIB-13.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is this an OTIB?

2 MR. HINNEFELD: No, it is an OCAS 

3 TIB.

4 CHAIR MUNN: It is an OCAS TIB.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is OCAS?

6 MR. MARSCHKE: It is not OTIB; it 

7 is just T-I-B.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: There it is. Don't 

9 search for 0013; search for 13, TIB-13.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Refresh my memory. 

11 Have we ever sorted out the business of how 

12 many zeroes?

13 DR. ULSH: Yes, I thought we had.

14 CHAIR MUNN: I thought we talked 

15 about it at great length last time.

16 DR. ULSH: It is a fix that we 

17 made supposedly.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, again, the 

19 problem here, if you want to take a note, this 

20 is another one of the beta version bugs. 

21 There are two versions of OCAS, of this 

22 TIB-13. There is an OCAS version, which is 
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1 013, and then there is a DCAS version, which 

2 is 0013.

3 The OCAS version is specific to 

4 Mallinckrodt. The DCAS version is more 

5 generic. The OCAS version has the SC&A, it is 

6 the version that SC&A commented on. It has 

7 the SC&A comments and the comment history in 

8 the database in the OCAS version. In the DCAS 

9 version it does not. It has nothing.

10 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Excuse me.

11 I submitted comments on the DCAS 

12 version.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Which one are we 

14 looking at now?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Who did you submit 

16 them to, Bob?

17 DR. ANIGSTEIN: You.

18 CHAIR MUNN: I thought that we 

19 were looking at Mallinckrodt.

20 MR. KATZ: And at the last 

21 meeting, I thought we discussed this fact, 

22 that this evolved from an OCAS version to a 
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1 DCAS more generic version. We discussed it at 

2 the last meeting, I believe, because I think I 

3 read that in the transcript.

4 CHAIR MUNN: We had a lot of 

5 discussion about this.

6 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Basically, let me 

7 clarify what I just said. I updated the 

8 findings and responded to picking up the 

9 findings from the earlier version and then 

10 commented on to the extent to which the later 

11 version addressed the original comments. So, 

12 they are both taken into account in a single 

13 -- it is not a separate review.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. That is what 

15 we were trying to say, Bob. Basically, the 

16 database doesn't have any comments on DCAS 

17 TIB-13.

18 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay. Yes.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Somehow we have to 

20 import the OCAS-TIB-13 comments over into 

21 DCAS-TIB-13. And I don't know if you want to 

22 remove OCAS-TIB-13. Do we want to close out 
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1 those comments? I don't know procedurally how 

2 you want to handle, I don't know how, yes, how 

3 do we want to go forward on this.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: I see only one 

5 item open in --

6 MR. MARSCHKE: There is only one 

7 item open, which is --

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, Finding 4, 

9 right.

10 DR. ANIGSTEIN: It is issue 6 that 

11 was folded into issue 4.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Exactly.

13 MR. KATZ: Right.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Essentially, they are 

16 all correction factors to be applied. And it 

17 was my understanding that NIOSH was going to 

18 take another look at the reviews that had 

19 already been made and make some suggestion as 

20 to whether or not this was going to go to the 

21 Science Issues group as an overarching issue 

22 or whether it was going to be a site-
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1 applicable item. That was, I believe, my 

2 understanding, the upshot of the discussion.

3 Am I thinking of something else?

4 MR. STIVER: No, Wanda, that is 

5 what I have for the notes from the September 

6 transcript, the idea of angular dependence 

7 versus geometry --

8 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

9 MR. STIVER: -- in the film 

10 badges. That was to go with the overarching 

11 category.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Whether it was going 

13 to go to them or whether --

14 MR. STIVER: I believe this was 

15 going to be considered. I don't think a 

16 decision had been made at that point.

17 CHAIR MUNN: No.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: My recollection is 

19 that we discussed about it, and then I think 

20 NIOSH -- I don't want to speak for you, but my 

21 recollection is that you wanted to go back and 

22 re-examine SC&A's comments. Before we took 
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1 the action to assign this over to the Science 

2 Committee, you kind of wanted to take one last 

3 look at the comments that were being made. 

4 That is what we have in the database.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, the September 

6 meeting, it says that NIOSH is going to re7 examine.

8 MR. KATZ: Well, you may want to, 

9 on that last note about sending it over to the 

10 Science Committee, the Science Committee at 

11 this point has only committed to dealing with 

12 risk-model-related work. So, at the time that 

13 they met, I provided to everyone on the 

14 Science Committee both the risk model 

15 material, but also the dose reconstruction 

16 overarching issues. There are a slew of them, 

17 actually.

18 But the Science Committee did not 

19 bite on the dose reconstruction issues. So, 

20 it doesn't have an agenda for that at this 

21 point.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, keep in mind 
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1 that that Committee is looking at what you 

2 might call longer-term issues, and they 

3 prioritized and said these are the ones that 

4 need the attention first.

5 MR. KATZ: Right.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, it is not that 

7 they are not interested in that, but --

8 MR. KATZ: No, no, just to be 

9 clear, what I am saying is I have in my notes 

10 as to what they agreed to in the relative 

11 near-term. And I have seven issues, and they 

12 are all risk-model-related.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

14 MR. KATZ: And I didn't even get a 

15 prioritization for the dose reconstruction 

16 overarching issues from that meeting. They 

17 have only met once in a real substantive way, 

18 except for the special meeting with the 

19 Science Committee.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, but one thing 

21 on overarching issues, they can go into that 

22 overarching category, and that doesn't mean 
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1 that that Work Group has to deal with them 

2 because it has to do with, if there is a 

3 generic OTIB, or whatever it is, that you 

4 would put it all together. I don't think it 

5 necessarily has to go through that Work Group. 

6 It is just that we are not going to solve 

7 this issue 20 times at a bunch of sites. It 

8 can move to --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: If I am not 

10 mistaken, we talked about the overarching 

11 issues rather than counting on the Science 

12 group.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: To say we are 

15 going to build a dummy committee, a 

16 subcommittee, on this application, and just 

17 call it "overarching issues".

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, whether it is 

19 resuspension factor or --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: And then, all 

21 these overarching issues get assigned into 

22 that, so you can pull up, once any particular 
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1 group decides something is an overarching 

2 issue, then you have in this a population of 

3 overarching issues.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. And once 

5 you guys develop an approach, then somebody 

6 reviews it.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

8 CHAIR MUNN: But, on this specific 

9 topic, on this one only, my question is, am I 

10 incorrect that NIOSH was going to take a look 

11 at, they were going to re-review the material 

12 here and make a recommendation as to whether 

13 or not this is an overarching issue or it is 

14 site-applicable? That is what I had in my 

15 mind at the time I wrote what I did on the 

16 agenda. Am I incorrect in that?

17 MR. MARSCHKE: I believe you are 

18 correct.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Before a final 

20 decision is made --

21 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- as to whether 
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1 it is generic or not.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. All right. So, 

3 this is a carryover.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Was the DCAS-013 a 

5 generic version of this? Is that what was 

6 being said?

7 CHAIR MUNN: I don't think so.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: DCAS-013, yes, I 

9 think that is right. OCAS-13 was 

10 Mallinckrodt-specific. DCAS-13 addressed the 

11 fact, well, these same geometries could exist 

12 other places besides Mallinckrodt. Why don't 

13 we write a more general --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, so that 

15 becomes the overarching document.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: But you are going 

18 to determine whether you solve this 

19 immediately for Mallinckrodt or whether it 

20 gets solved in the other document then. Well, 

21 something like that.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.
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1 MR. STIVER: It would have to 

2 migrate to the DCAS document.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, unless it is 

4 sufficiently Mallinckrodt-specific --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but I don't 

6 think --

7 MR. STIVER: It doesn't sound like

8 this would be. This is the kind of thing that 

9 would be kind of overarching.

10 CHAIR MUNN: The ball is still in 

11 the NIOSH court.

12 DR. ULSH: Yes.

13 CHAIR MUNN: And it is a 

14 carryover.

15 DR. MAURO: This is John.

16 One other thing that just came out 

17 of this conversation that I felt was something 

18 I was not aware of is the segregation between 

19 the science activities and what we would call 

20 the overarching issues. The science 

21 activities, I guess it is a higher-level 

22 issue. There is another category that really 
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1 falls into more of a generic issue that lies, 

2 I guess, amongst us and NIOSH, but it is not 

3 part of the Science group. So, there are 

4 these two collections, so to speak, of generic 

5 issues that I did not make that distinction in 

6 my mind. Am I correct that there is that 

7 distinction?

8 CHAIR MUNN: It looks like that is 

9 the way it is going to be, John. I didn't 

10 make that distinction personally, either. In 

11 my mind, the issues that are before us are 

12 many and either fall into the kind of issues 

13 that we deal with here in this Subcommittee or 

14 they fall into a broader, general category. I 

15 don't know whether to call them overarching or 

16 not, but in my mind I have always thought of 

17 them as overarching issues. They are, also, 

18 in my mind all science issues.

19 But there has, clearly, in recent 

20 months been a distinction made between those. 

21 And there was some discussion of that here in 

22 our September meeting.
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1 MR. STIVER: In my mind, I have 

2 kind of an agreement with Wanda. I mean they 

3 are really just two sides of the same coin 

4 here. Although this idea of setting up an 

5 overarching virtual Work Group, if you will, 

6 to parse them out to various committees would 

7 kind of indicate that you may have certain 

8 situations where it is not really an 

9 overarching science issue, but may apply to 

10 several different types of facilities or 

11 several facilities within a given type.

12 Like, say, AWEs may have certain 

13 commonalities that need to be addressed in 

14 kind of an overarching way, but it wouldn't 

15 necessarily be a scientific issue that is kind 

16 of programmatic-wide. It is kind of a sub17 element of --

18 CHAIR MUNN: It is kind of what we 

19 had in mind originally with 6001.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, keep in 

21 mind, the science issue that they are looking 

22 at seems like the CLL, the chronic lymphocytic 
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1 leukemia. That doesn't show up as an issue 

2 in, let's say, the Rocky Flats Work Group.

3 MR. STIVER: Right, in any given 

4 particular Work Group.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, and it is 

6 sort of like programmatic overall.

7 And there are some other issues 

8 like that. Whereas, the resuspension thing is 

9 more of an application of the science --

10 MR. STIVER: Yes.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- that is already 

12 there.

13 MR. STIVER: It is an application 

14 that may span more than one --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. The IREP 

16 model is a little different again. All the 

17 Work Groups are saying, yes, the IREP model is 

18 there. So, you are not getting findings that 

19 -- well, you might. You have raised some 

20 issues on the IREP model, but that is 

21 partially an overarching science.

22 MR. STIVER: Yes, it really is, 
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1 and the other may be kind of subcategories of 

2 that, but, yes, it can be addressed within the 

3 purview of types of sciences as opposed to 

4 programmatic-wide.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

6 MR. KATZ: And clearly, this 

7 Subcommittee deals with programwide dose 

8 reconstruction matters. So, they don't need 

9 to be all punted to another Science Work 

10 Group, particularly when they are sort of 

11 dose-reconstruction-specific. I think, just 

12 as with OTIB-70, they can be addressed here.

13 CHAIR MUNN: The ball is in the 

14 NIOSH court.

15 The next item that we have is 

16 OTIB-52 Rev. 1 response.

17 DR. ULSH: And we are prepared on 

18 that one, I believe. So, Elyse and Matt 

19 Smith, do you want to discuss that one?

20 MR. SMITH: Sure. This is Matt.

21 For reference, I don't know if you 

22 can bring it up in the room, but OTIB-52, Rev. 
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1 1, for the first item, which is -12, the page 

2 of interest would be page 30 of 40.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Now hold on just a 

4 moment.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: That is of the TIB 

6 itself.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, of the TIB 

8 itself?

9 MR. SMITH: Yes, that is of the 

10 TIB itself.

11 These items are issues that were 

12 brought up previously and addressed in Rev. 1 

13 of the TIB and are kind of based on a 

14 discussion that took place way back in October 

15 of 2008.

16 And just to add to the 

17 documentation, I sent Elyse a copy of meeting 

18 notes from Bob Morris, who is the OTIB-52 

19 author, to Elyse. I don't know if that is 

20 linkable yet or not.

21 MS. THOMAS: Yes, those did get 

22 linked.
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1 MR. SMITH: Okay.

2 MS. THOMAS: You are looking at

3 Finding 12. So, if the Subcommittee wants to 

4 look those up in the database, you can. Matt 

5 is starting with OTIB-52, Finding 12, and 

6 there are new responses that were uploaded, as 

7 well as a link to those meeting notes that he 

8 is referring to.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

10 MR. SMITH: So, it is kind of 

11 three things being juggled here. Let me try 

12 to summarize on item 12.

13 The issue here was the use of the 

14 REMS database as opposed to the site-specific 

15 REX database at Hanford. There were several 

16 reasons the authors used the REMS data. It 

17 was for the early years the only way to 

18 separate out construction trade workers from 

19 all monitored workers. And then, even into 

20 the modern era, it just proved to be a very 

21 reliable way for them to do that same 

22 separation of those involved in construction 
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1 trades versus the all monitored workers.

2 So, as far as the pedigree 

3 response to this, if you take a look at the 

4 linked meeting notes that Bob Morris took in 

5 2008, within that document he has got it 

6 highlighted as item 3.

7 DR. ULSH: Just to briefly 

8 interrupt, John, you had asked earlier whether 

9 you could link different document types.

10 MR. STIVER: Yes, here you go.

11 DR. ULSH: Yes, this answers the 

12 question, I think.

13 MR. SMITH: Let me pause. Is that 

14 linking working there?

15 CHAIR MUNN: It is working.

16 Item 3.

17 MR. SMITH: That's great.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Good. Yes, it is 

19 great.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: What kind of 

21 document is this?

22 CHAIR MUNN: It is a Word 
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1 document.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, it came up and 

3 I just didn't see it. There it is.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Item 3.

5 MR. KATZ: Just to be clear for 

6 the record, for this one, since we are dealing 

7 with Hanford, this is Dr. Ziemer, Paul and 

8 Dick will have to deal with this.

9 CHAIR MUNN: They will.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Not a conflict.

11 MR. KATZ: Not conflicted, right.

12 MR. SMITH: Let me bring that up 

13 as well. I am also conflicted with Hanford. 

14 Sorry. Does that prohibit me from speaking 

15 further?

16 MR. KATZ: Yes. So, who has done 

17 the work on this, is the question.

18 MR. SMITH: The person who has 

19 done the work on it is Bob Morris.

20 MR. KATZ: I see. Who is not 

21 here. And you are just being his voice?

22 MR. SMITH: Well, I am listed as 
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1 the document owner. The author, though, of 

2 the really the original and also Rev. 1 is Bob 

3 Morris. And also, he directly collaborated on 

4 the responses that we are talking about, even 

5 the current responses.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the document 

7 is construction workers.

8 MR. KATZ: Right. I understand.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: The document 

10 relates to construction workers across the 

11 conflict.

12 MR. KATZ: Right.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And so, the 

14 conflict doesn't apply to a generic thing like 

15 this.

16 MR. KATZ: No, I understand.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: This specific 

18 issue we are talking about now is a finding 

19 about something that was at Hanford.

20 MR. KATZ: Right.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: That was used in 

22 support of this generic document. I think we 
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1 are kind of in the clear.

2 MR. KATZ: Yes, I mean, I think he 

3 can present. It is not even his work he is 

4 presenting.

5 Go ahead.

6 MR. SMITH: Okay. In any event, 

7 you can see this item was discussed, again, 

8 back in 2008. The bottom line you can see on 

9 the final page of Bob's draft meeting notes, 

10 and that is the response that we have also 

11 listed currently, which is to add a statement. 

12 I guess in this case it would be 

13 adding a statement to Rev. 1 that is on the 

14 street now that says, "Electronic access to 

15 the REX database was not available when this 

16 bulletin drafted. However, the data in REMS 

17 was derived from the data in REX and is judged 

18 to adequately represent the ratio of 

19 construction trade workers and all monitored 

20 worker doses."

21 So, that was the final outcome of 

22 the 2008 meeting. That particular language 
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1 doesn't look like it landed on page 30 of Rev. 

2 1 of OTIB-52. There are several annotations 

3 there that address response to this item, this 

4 -12 item, but this particular language didn't 

5 end up in the document. So, the response is 

6 that this language would be added.

7 In terms of where would it be 

8 added, if you are looking at page 30 of the 

9 OTIB, probably about midway or actually almost 

10 the second-to-last paragraph you will see 

11 Annotation No. 9. That looks like that would 

12 be the best place to add this language that I 

13 just described.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Did SC&A already 

15 see this response?

16 MR. MARSCHKE: No.

17 MR. STIVER: No, we haven't.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: No, we didn't the 

19 response. It has been in the database, I 

20 guess it has been in the database, but we --

21 CHAIR MUNN: Will our action in 

22 this case be SC&A will review this response 
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1 here?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, I think the 

3 comment was, if I recall the original 

4 comment -- and, basically, I was one who did 

5 the critique of 052 -- there was confusion as 

6 to what was actually used. When we initially 

7 brought up why was REX used as opposed to 

8 REMS, I think one of the initial responses we 

9 got was that REX was used. And based upon 

10 that, we said, okay. But that is not 

11 reflected in the document.

12 And now I think when NIOSH has 

13 gone back and said, well, no, REX wasn't used, 

14 we were confused and we wanted to get 

15 clarification. When we looked at Rev. 1, we 

16 made our report on Rev. 1, we said, well, 

17 basically, what is it; was REX used; what not 

18 REX used? Or was REMS used?

19 Now with this clarification that 

20 REMS was used and REMS is basically the same 

21 as REX, I don't have any problems with just 

22 making that clear in the document. If you 
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1 have this two sentences that they indicate 

2 here, I would be happy with the NIOSH 

3 response.

4 CHAIR MUNN: So, is the action 

5 here that SC&A accepts NIOSH response?

6 MR. MARSCHKE: SC&A accepts NIOSH 

7 response, that is what I am saying at this 

8 point, yes.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: And it would be in 

10 abeyance until --

11 MR. MARSCHKE: And it would be in 

12 abeyance until these two sentences are 

13 inserted into the document, with probably a 

14 page change or something like that.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Dick, if you are 

16 still on the line, are you in agreement?

17 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. It is in 

19 abeyance.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Just a procedure 

21 thing for Ted, can I make this change in 

22 Wanda's name or what should I do?
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1 MR. KATZ: No, why don't you go 

2 ahead and make it in --

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Paul's name?

4 MR. KATZ: -- Paul's name. Thank 

5 you. Just to keep in the paperwork in order. 

6 Thank you.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Is that the last item 

8 we have on OTIB-52?

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: What about the 

10 next, 13?

11 MR. STIVER: We have 13 I believe 

12 and 14 as well.

13 MR. KATZ: Okay. Do you want to 

14 proceed with Finding 13?

15 CHAIR MUNN: Please do.

16 MR. SMITH: All right. Thirteen 

17 and 14 are linked, both in terms of when they 

18 were discussed earlier in 2008 and, also, in 

19 the response that ended up in the revision of 

20 the OTIB itself.

21 So, in the OTIB-52 document, the 

22 Rev. 1 document, let me send you all the way 
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1 back to page 9 of 40. The section of interest 

2 is Section 4. And then, also for reference 

3 is, again, the 2008 meeting notes, and the 

4 item listed as item No. 2 is addressing, as 

5 you can see there in the title, it is 

6 addressing Findings 13 and 14.

7 The language that was added to the 

8 OTIB you can see right in basically the center 

9 of Section 4. It ends with Annotation No. 2.

10 And the issue here was the 

11 treatment among the different sites, and then, 

12 also, there was a file on issue regarding the 

13 factor, I guess you would call it the 

14 threshold factor is the best way to describe 

15 it.

16 So, for item No. 13, the response, 

17 the current response dated 12/7, the methods 

18 were always the same when a certain site was 

19 evaluated. I will just go ahead and read the 

20 response from 12/7.

21 "Regardless of comparison method, 

22 the outcome would be favorable to construction 
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1 trade workers because the correction is 

2 typically applied to doses in a site-specific 

3 coworker model which is based on data for all 

4 monitored workers. When construction trade 

5 workers are removed from the comparison 

6 population, the ratio favors construction 

7 trades if the construction trade doses are, in 

8 act, elevated."

9 In addition, regarding the 20 

10 percent threshold criteria, that threshold 

11 criteria falls inside the margin of 

12 uncertainty for dosimetry, which roughly in 

13 the film era is 30 percent. And also, for 

14 dosimetry programs, the modern era that would 

15 be covered by DOELAP, you typically see a 30 

16 percent criteria that you need to conform to 

17 to pass DOELAP.

18 MR. STIVER: Yes, this is John 

19 Stiver.

20 We are having a similar problem or 

21 a similar issue we are dealing with at 

22 Fernald, very close to this. That is the 
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1 issue of do you lump construction trade 

2 workers with all workers for the comparison? 

3 And clearly, when you do that, you are 

4 diluting out the effect. In our case, in the 

5 all monitored workers category when you give 

6 the ratio of construction trade workers to all 

7 monitored workers, I think we ended up with 

8 about, NIOSH came up with an adjustment factor 

9 of about two or so. But when you pull them 

10 out of that denominator, you would see that 

11 the effects -- of course, it was dependent on 

12 various years -- it could have been up to a 

13 factor of four or more.

14 And so, this is something that is 

15 still being debated in the Fernald Work Group. 

16 We have put together a White Paper on that, 

17 which we are going to prepare.

18 But I am not familiar with how 

19 this was handled in OTIB-52. I know Steve did 

20 the review of that.

21 So, maybe, Steve, you can speak to 

22 that situation.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, sometimes it 

2 was compared to, the construction workers were 

3 compared to all monitored workers and 

4 sometimes they were compared to non5 construction work monitored workers. So, 

6 there is a little bit difference in the ratio. 

7 So, when you come up to what is an acceptable 

8 ratio, you get a slightly different value.

9 When we did talk about it last 

10 time, I mean we did discuss, again, like the 

11 20 percent, where did the 20 percent come? If 

12 this is like a cutoff for acceptability, what 

13 is the basis for it?

14 Now I think in what Matt had just 

15 said, he has presented what the basis for it a 

16 little bit is, which I think, to my 

17 recollection, that is kind of new information, 

18 that it is based on the accuracy of the 

19 readings.

20 And I think that is really what we 

21 were asking for, what is the cutoff and what 

22 is the basis for the cutoff? And you are 
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1 saying that between the two methods, you know, 

2 construction workers to all monitored workers 

3 or construction workers to non-construction 

4 monitored workers, the difference is going to 

5 be less than 20 percent. And that is an 

6 acceptable difference based upon the accuracy 

7 of the readings. That is really the 

8 information that I think we were looking for.

9 MR. SMITH: Okay. And kind of 

10 back to the big picture, that paragraph in the 

11 middle of Section 4 you can see is basically 

12 verbatim from the meeting notes from 2008. 

13 You can see the language there listed under 

14 item 2 in those meeting notes, as well as a 

15 summary of the discussion regarding that 

16 language.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: I do have a concern 

18 about I know that there was a meeting, there 

19 was a number of meetings on OTIB-52.

20 MR. SMITH: Right.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: And you keep 

22 referring back to the 2008 meeting. I am not 
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1 sure that there weren't a number of meetings 

2 after the 2008 meeting. So, I am not 100 

3 percent sure that that is the definitive 

4 meeting and should be referred to as the 

5 definitive meeting.

6 Because I think -- and I have to 

7 go back and I am desperately looking for my 

8 report, and I can't find where I have it on my 

9 flash drive. But I think we continued to talk 

10 about some of these findings after the 2008 

11 meeting.

12 MR. SMITH: The main reason I am 

13 using this summary or these minutes is that I 

14 can see -- you know, at that time I was not 

15 document owner, but, historically, looking 

16 back, I can see, like we are speaking of this 

17 item, exactly where the language in Rev. 1 

18 that is now on the street came from.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, that was one 

20 of my problems when I looked at Rev. 1, was 

21 that the language came out of a meeting.

22 MR. SMITH: Okay.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: And then, we 

2 continued to discuss the issues after that 

3 particular meeting.

4 DR. ULSH: It sounds like you 

5 might want to take some time and review this 

6 response before we make any kind of a status 

7 change. Is that --

8 MR. STIVER: I would recommend 

9 keeping this in progress because there are 

10 still some issues about how that ratio is 

11 determined. So, yes.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: I think what we 

13 should do maybe, I see now that Matt's 

14 responses are in the database. To be honest 

15 with you, they have been in there for a while. 

16 I wasn't aware that they were in the 

17 database, and I should have looked at these 

18 before the meeting. I would have liked to 

19 have looked at these before the meeting and 

20 prepared SC&A's position on these responses.

21 So, I think what I would like to 

22 do on OTIB-52, if it is okay with the 
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1 Subcommittee, is I would like SC&A to take an 

2 action item to go through and review the 

3 latest replies from NIOSH and see where we 

4 agree and if we disagree on some of the 

5 issues.

6 MR. KATZ: Can I ask a process 

7 question? I mean, I know often we get notices 

8 from you, Brant, saying we have just responded 

9 to "X". Did that not happen with this?

10 DR. ULSH: I don't know. I would 

11 have to go back and look at my email.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay.

13 MR. STIVER: I was not notified.

14 MR. KATZ: Going forward, anyway, 

15 we need to make certain that we get 

16 notifications out when someone makes an 

17 addition --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. I know we did 

19 it on --

20 MR. KATZ: -- responses or 

21 reviews, either way.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.
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1 MR. KATZ: Because, I mean, then, 

2 you don't need to be tasked; you know when you 

3 get notification that there is a response.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: That is what we did 

5 on OTIB-6.

6 MR. KATZ: Right. No, I 

7 understand.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: And so, yes, this 

9 one must have just --

10 DR. ULSH: Yes, it is always my 

11 intention, when we load something into the 

12 database, to let you guys know.

13 MR. KATZ: Right.

14 DR. ULSH: I would have to go back 

15 and look at my emails.

16 MR. KATZ: Yes, we don't need to. 

17 It is water under the bridge. I just mean, 

18 going forward, let's --

19 MR. STIVER: Yes, certainly, 

20 everybody needs to stay abreast of the changes 

21 made.

22 MR. KATZ: Notifications, yes.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: That process has 

2 worked for us in the past, but, obviously, it 

3 is not impossible to simply be overlooked.

4 Our action item for the next 

5 meeting will be an issue for SC&A on the 

6 current status of OTIB-52. Specifically, item 

7 13 or broader than that?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: I would say it is 

9 broader than that, Wanda.

10 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: All the ones --

12 CHAIR MUNN: We will just say 52.

13 DR. ULSH: We talked about Finding 

14 12, 13, and 14. I thought 12 we agreed to 

15 change to in abeyance or --

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Right. So, 

17 basically, it is 13 and 14.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have one 

19 question on 13. It might apply to 14 also, 

20 I'm not sure. But I noticed we have the 

21 current response, Matt Smith's response, 

22 right, December 16th? The previous comment is 
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1 2008, a NIOSH response, 2008, that SC&A 

2 should review, and so on. Then, there is this 

3 big gap here and then this new response from 

4 Matt Smith. Are there some missing things 

5 here? It says that SC&A is going to respond 

6 in September 2008. I don't see that.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: What happened was 

8 -- yes, Paul -- what happened was NIOSH issued 

9 Revision 1 to OTIB-52, and we did a review of 

10 Revision 1 to OTIB-52 and issued a document. 

11 Like I say, I was desperately trying to find 

12 that document on my O: drive, or not on my O: 

13 drive, but on my flash drive. And I haven't 

14 been able to locate it yet.

15 So, I guess you could say there 

16 are a few steps missing in this history, one 

17 step being that Revision 1 has been issued. 

18 Another step being that SC&A has issued a 

19 document reviewing Revision 1.

20 So, what we probably should do is 

21 take our critiques or whatever critiques that 

22 we had from the document and put them into the 
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1 database.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. I think 

3 something to transition between these two 

4 would help.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: I just don't know 

6 whether, I don't know if I can make it in 

7 chronological order. It may be out of 

8 chronological order.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: But I will make 

11 sure --

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think what you 

13 do is you review this and fill in those gaps 

14 maybe.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Make sure that it 

16 gets in there.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Notation of a link, 

18 if nothing else.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

20 CHAIR MUNN: A date and a link, 

21 now that we have links.

22 MR. KATZ: Very good.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: All right. We have 

2 one more item, but it is after 12:00, and I 

3 don't believe OTIB-6 is going to take us that 

4 long. I suggest that we break for lunch and 

5 that we be back at 1:30. Is that amenable 

6 with all?

7 MR. KATZ: How about 1:15, an 

8 hour?

9 CHAIR MUNN: 1:15 will be fine.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: I will try to be 

11 back with you.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you, Dick.

13 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Dick.

14 MEMBER LEMEN: All right.

15 MR. KATZ: Thank you, everyone 

16 else on the line. We will speak to you again 

17 at 1:15.

18 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

19 went off the record at 12:11 p.m. and resumed

20 at 1:17 p.m.)

21 

22 
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 

2 1:17 p.m.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay. We are back 

4 online. This is the Procedures Subcommittee 

5 of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker 

6 Health.

7 Let me check online and see if we 

8 have a Board Member or more back on the line. 

9 Dick, are you with us?

10 MEMBER LEMEN: I am. Can you hear 

11 me?

12 MR. KATZ: Yes, perfectly. 

13 Welcome back.

14 And let me check and see if Mike 

15 Gibson has joined us at this point.

16 (No response.)

17 Okay. No Mike.

18 CHAIR MUNN: We are picking up the 

19 last item that we have on our carryover items, 

20 which is OTIB-6. I think I sent you all a 

21 note over the weekend reminding you that you 

22 had received information from SC&A on their 
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1 response to OTIB-6 and that we would cover it 

2 at this time.

3 Steve, are you up on this one?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. As you see on 

5 the screen, what we have is the two pieces of 

6 information that have developed on OTIB-6, 

7 Finding No. 3, since last time we met.

8 Essentially, what it says is that 

9 NIOSH has issued Revision 4 to OTIB-6, and 

10 SC&A has reviewed Revision 4 to OTIB-6 and 

11 found that NIOSH has effectively incorporated 

12 the agreed-upon resolutions to Finding 3. And 

13 we recommend that Finding 3 be closed at this 

14 point.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Any objection to 

16 closing Finding 3?

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is this 0006? 

18 Yes.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Finding 3, 4, and 

21 5, are they the same? I am looking at the 

22 thing you sent out, which is the overview. Or 
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1 did you send that out?

2 CHAIR MUNN: No.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: There is only 

4 Finding 3 and 4.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, I'm sorry. 

6 Okay. There was a summary thing --

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, yes, there was a 

8 summary thing, yes.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- that came from 

10 SC&A. I opened the wrong thing here. I need 

11 to be in the database then?

12 CHAIR MUNN: I think you need to 

13 be, yes, the database is probably the best 

14 thing.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: I mean, Brant sent 

16 an email, I guess it was probably before 

17 Christmas, indicating that Revision 4 had been 

18 issued. We took and ran with that, and we 

19 sent out an email right around Christmastime, 

20 I think it was --

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: -- indicating that 
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1 we agreed with NIOSH on these two issues. And 

2 subsequently, I have updated the database to 

3 reflect that SC&A does agree.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, 3 and 4 were the 

5 only two outstanding findings that we had on 

6 OTIB-6.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: That is correct. 

8 And they were both in abeyance. So, I mean, 

9 what it was was that everybody had come to 

10 agreement what the resolution should be. It 

11 was just a matter of updating OTIB-6 and 

12 incorporating those agreements and changes.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Making sure the 

14 procedure was itself done, and they have done 

15 that. SC&A has reviewed the revisions and 

16 agrees that the contents have been covered for 

17 the new revisions.

18 Closed.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Closed.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Agreed, Dick?

21 (No response.)

22 I take that to be assent.
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1 And 4 is essentially the same as 

2 12, correct?

3 So, should now be off our list.

4 MR. KATZ: Closed.

5 CHAIR MUNN: And because I was so 

6 happy that they were closed, I left them off 

7 the original agenda. My apologies.

8 The next item that we have is a 

9 report on the Sciences Issues Work Group and 

10 overarching issues status. We have touched on 

11 that briefly this morning, but I don't know 

12 whether everyone is aware of the items that we 

13 discussed that the Science Issues Work Group 

14 agreed to take and the statuses of the other 

15 overarching issues.

16 Do you want to give us a brief 

17 rundown, Ted?

18 MR. KATZ: Sure. So, the Science 

19 Subcommittee met back in, I believe, October 

20 and made a priority list, as Paul mentioned 

21 earlier. It had seven items of priority that 

22 all fall under risk model issues. As I said 
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1 earlier, none of them really relates to the 

2 dose reconstruction overarching issues. 

3 The first priority is dose and 

4 dose rate effectiveness factor. SENES has 

5 written a major paper on this, and Dr. 

6 Richardson is reviewing that paper with a 

7 proposal that he would write a sort of 

8 summary, a manageable summary, and whatever 

9 thoughts there might be related to that 

10 summary in terms of the Board's views that he 

11 would produce for the Work Group to consider.

12 So, that is on his plate. He 

13 hasn't delivered that summary yet. I don't 

14 know what the status of that is, but it was a 

15 big chunk of work that he was going to have to 

16 comprehend to get to that point. So, I am not 

17 surprised I haven't seen it yet.

18 The other items in the priority 

19 list were RBE, relative biological 

20 effectiveness. Other factors sort of like 

21 other workplace exposure factors, and so on, 

22 was three. Age-at-exposure analysis for 
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1 incorporation of nuclear worker epistudies. 

2 The IREP models is five. Grouping of rare 

3 miscellaneous cancers was six on their list of 

4 priorities. And seven was discussion of in5 house data and what could be made of that 

6 analytically going forward, I guess, for epi7 models, and what have you.

8 So, those seven items are their 

9 priorities at this point. Anything more you 

10 want to know about it?

11 CHAIR MUNN: I am wondering how to 

12 approach the issues that we were discussing 

13 this morning, such as placement of badges, the 

14 kind of, as you said, operational activities 

15 that affect not necessarily every site, but a 

16 great many, and are science issues in 

17 themselves, but not in the same sense that 

18 these are.

19 Perhaps we should have a 

20 discussion with Dr. Richardson and get views 

21 of his Work Group on issues of that type.

22 MR. KATZ: I think that is 
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1 certainly one thing you could do. You and 

2 Paul are both on that Work Group as well, and 

3 so is Dick. So, you certainly can have that 

4 discussion next time that Work Group meets, 

5 about these DR overarching issues.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think the 

7 overarching ones tend to show up in other 

8 contexts where they get sort of identified by 

9 a particular Work Group or by NIOSH or by SC&A 

10 that says this is a reoccurring thing; it 

11 occurred here, here, and here.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it keeps showing 

13 up.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: It becomes 

15 overarching, and then NIOSH usually has picked 

16 that up. They will say, for example, well, we 

17 are developing a White Paper or a position on 

18 this. And then, that leads to a review.

19 But my question is, are there any 

20 such issues that have been identified that are 

21 already sort of in the pipeline?

22 CHAIR MUNN: In the pipeline 
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1 where?

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Are most of those 

3 overarching ones like resuspension factors? 

4 That is being addressed. Construction 

5 workers, that was a generic thing and 

6 addressed.

7 MR. STIVER: That is a generic.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: But what else is 

9 on that --

10 MR. KATZ: I will tell you what 

11 was on that list: oral/nasal breathing.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: And that is in 

13 process, right?

14 MR. KATZ: That is in process, I 

15 think.

16 Workplace ingestion, doses from 

17 hot particles, NTOA rehashed, non-standard 

18 external exposures, thoriated welding rods, 

19 interpretation of unworn badges, material 

20 tracking, and internal dose from the Super S 

21 Pu.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Super S has been 
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1 addressed, I think. I mean, that was an 

2 overarching one that has been addressed.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay. Well, I mean, 

4 back in August it wasn't done, because this 

5 came from Jim's list originally, which he 

6 presented in August.

7 CHAIR MUNN: And you see this, 

8 what we were just discussing earlier, the 

9 issue of badge geometry is one of those things 

10 that shows up on multiple sites.

11 MR. STIVER: The list that Ted 

12 just put forth are science issues, but they 

13 may have limited applicability. The things we 

14 are looking at here, like say with the film 

15 badge placement and modeling, it is almost 

16 more of a mechanistic approach. How do you 

17 address this problem? It is almost like a 

18 method that is common to a lot of different 

19 sites that have these types of --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, that is for 

21 overarching issues.

22 MR. STIVER: Yes, yes. I know, 
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1 but it is almost like there is a subtle 

2 distinction between like, say, hot particles 

3 being an issue in itself. But, then, it is 

4 like we have these methods that we have 

5 developed. Sometimes they have kind of sprung 

6 up in different disparate Work Groups, but 

7 they are all looking at the same kind of 

8 issues. It is more like, now that we have it, 

9 what types of approaches are we going to take 

10 and agree upon to incorporate that into the DR 

11 framework?

12 Another one would be these DWEs, 

13 the daily weighted exposures, and how those 

14 are addressed, the uncertainty factors and how

15 that is applied in dose reconstruction at 

16 Fernald and Weldon Spring and some other sites 

17 as well.

18 The approaches that have been 

19 taken are quite different in some cases. And 

20 so, there is some communication among the 

21 different Work Groups to determine how best to 

22 arrive at a final conclusion on that.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Whether the ones that 

2 have been used in the past are, in fact, okay, 

3 which I think in many cases they probably are.

4 MR. STIVER: For example, at 

5 Fernald and the DWEs, we came up with a 

6 methodology. It is kind of an overarching 

7 method. It wasn't, probably because we just 

8 didn't have the mechanism in place to kick 

9 that up to this overarching category and then 

10 disseminate that among the different Work 

11 Groups, Weldon is kind of operating in their 

12 little universe. It has kind of suffered from 

13 what we were doing. They came up with a 

14 slightly different approach.

15 And so, it was kind of a matter of 

16 how do you kind of integrate all this 

17 together. I think this idea of having this 

18 virtual Work Group where you can kind of put 

19 all these different things in and then sort 

20 them out, and then disseminate them to the 

21 different Work Groups that have that common 

22 interest, I think it is great. It is just a 
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1 matter of how do you go about building the 

2 tool to do that.

3 CHAIR MUNN: It sounds cumbersome 

4 to me.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, part of this 

6 grew out of what you guys did originally when 

7 you said, you know, we have certain findings; 

8 we want to see how consistent we are and how 

9 we address the findings, "we", SC&A.

10 MR. STIVER: Oh, yes, as it is 

11 internalized, yes.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because you would 

13 have different people working these things. I 

14 think NIOSH has done some of this where they 

15 have asked themselves, are we consistent in 

16 how we are responding to a finding at this 

17 site that is basically the same finding as 

18 another site?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: That is what NIOSH 

20 had us do. A couple of years ago, we went 

21 back and looked at a whole series of 

22 procedures. Most of them were these coworker 
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1 dose procedures.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, to see 

3 how --

4 MR. MARSCHKE: To see how 

5 consistent they were.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: So, there is a 

8 document out there somewhere that has 

9 enshrined that analysis. I don't know whether 

10 or not --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Some of these grew 

12 out of that, I think. I suppose the question 

13 is, are there some others now that there are 

14 some additional issues that either you have 

15 seen in your reviews or NIOSH has seen in 

16 their procedures?

17 MR. KATZ: I think this all boils 

18 down, though, when you talk about 

19 dissemination, I mean really dissemination 

20 between the Work Groups, or whatever, I don't 

21 think that is the way that things should be 

22 driven. Really, at the end of the day, what 
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1 have these issues identified, whether it is in 

2 one Work Group or it has come up in two Work 

3 Groups, or what have you. And it is seen that 

4 it has broad applicability. At the end of the 

5 day, I think it all gets boiled down with DCAS 

6 producing a procedure related to that first, 

7 right?

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Once it is 

9 identified.

10 MR. STIVER: Sure. Once it is 

11 identified, then it comes back --

12 MR. KATZ: And then, it comes 

13 here. If there needs to be involvement of 

14 other groups, it can, but this is sort of the 

15 central repository for dealing with generic 

16 procedures that cut across sites, and so on. 

17 So, it seems to me it is all of these. At the 

18 end of the day, if there is agreement that 

19 there is an issue there that needs to be 

20 worked out, the working out needs to be, 

21 ultimately, a DCAS procedure for handling that 

22 consistently.
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1 MR. STIVER: I guess we just all 

2 need to be cognizant of how these things come 

3 up and elevate them.

4 MR. KATZ: And I am just trying to 

5 distinguish between that and this sort of idea 

6 of a virtual Work Group. There is not really 

7 a virtual Work Group you need. You just 

8 need --

9 MR. STIVER: Maybe that is the 

10 wrong word.

11 MR. KATZ: Yes.

12 MR. STIVER: It is sort of --

13 MR. KATZ: No, no, you didn't coin 

14 it. I am just saying it is really that 

15 concept of the Board sort of minding it. 

16 Really, the Board doesn't need to mind it 

17 until DCAS creates a sort of original 

18 approach.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: To my way of 

20 thinking, I think I am in the virtual Work 

21 Group.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 So, I am guilty of that.

2 But, to my way of thinking, 

3 though, it is a way to essentially keep them 

4 concisely in a record, in a place where we 

5 have got them all down, as opposed to a list 

6 on Jim's computer.

7 And then, also, to me, they seem 

8 to come up in DR reviews fairly often.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, they do.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, that is 

11 where they pop up.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And so, catching 

14 them there and getting them someplace, and 

15 probably they would come, I would guess 

16 logically, to this group, but after DCAS 

17 opines on how we are going to deal with that.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And so, it takes 

20 the discussion out of a specific DR discussion 

21 in acting --

22 MR. KATZ: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: -- and gets it 

2 into this broader discussion. And then, once 

3 you have a resolution, then you have a broad 

4 resolution and, ultimately, a finalized 

5 procedure that is then utilized when that 

6 situation comes up.

7 MR. KATZ: Yes, I agree. So, I 

8 think it is sort of a DCAS to-do list. And 

9 then, I mean, where DCAS wants to air things 

10 while you are developing the solution, where 

11 you want to air them here, this is probably 

12 the natural default repository for airing 

13 them. But, of course, some of these you might 

14 work out because a Work Group is heavily 

15 engaged in that, and you may work it out with 

16 that Work Group as opposed to this one, this 

17 Subcommittee.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I believe it wasn't 

20 a virtual Work Group; it was a virtual 

21 document in the database where we were going 

22 to put all these different issues into a 
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1 virtual document.

2 CHAIR MUNN: We discussed that.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: We discussed that.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: And I don't think 

6 we wanted to do that.

7 CHAIR MUNN: No.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know.

9 CHAIR MUNN: As I said, it seemed 

10 cumbersome at the time.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: It seemed 

12 cumbersome, but it may be the best way to do 

13 it.

14 CHAIR MUNN: It may be --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, my thought 

16 was this: now this is a little offbase, 

17 although I think we may have identified -- I 

18 don't know if you identified anything or not 

19 from this Subcommittee. But in dose 

20 reconstruction, if you have a finding that is 

21 overarching, you say, well, we are going to 

22 transfer that to the overarching issues. And 
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1 then, it would show up as a finding in this 

2 system under the virtual Overarching Issues 

3 Work Group. Then, you have a place to track 

4 the conversation of the issue the way we track 

5 the conversation of these issues. That was my 

6 thought.

7 You see, what strikes me about 

8 this is, in terms of re-creation of the record 

9 of the discussion, we are in a little bit of a 

10 dicey situation in most of the Work Groups 

11 because it is kept on notes and matrices that 

12 are published. And trying to make sure 

13 everybody is working from the same one and 

14 that changes are made to the correct, most 

15 recent master is really hard to do.

16 MR. KATZ: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: This takes care of 

18 that. Now that is why we try to make our 

19 records electronic at our place, so that your 

20 record is maintained by your system, and this 

21 is the record.

22 And so, instead of having these 
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1 matrices being sent around and shipped around 

2 and confused, this provides the mechanism for 

3 doing that and establishes a record. That was 

4 the advantage of the virtual Work Group, was 

5 to do that.

6 MR. KATZ: Yes. So, in effect, it 

7 is not necessarily an SC&A finding, but it is 

8 finding, whether it is from a Work Group or a 

9 Subcommittee, the Dose Reconstruction 

10 Subcommittee, or whatever. It is a finding 

11 that, then, needs to get resolved.

12 So, we need to load those up?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I would propose we 

14 do that.

15 MR. KATZ: Yes.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that is on 

17 our priority list somewhere, but I am sure it 

18 wasn't a top priority on top.

19 MR. STIVER: So, I guess the 

20 starting point would be to take Jim's list and 

21 then populate this virtual grouping with that. 

22 Then, as new ones arise --
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, some of 

2 them, there are already procedures.

3 MR. STIVER: Yes. Yes, they would 

4 already be in there.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, they are in 

7 there.

8 MR. STIVER: As new ones come 

9 up --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

11 MR. STIVER: -- then at least that 

12 would provide us with a central repository.

13 DR. ULSH: So, I am looking at the 

14 first page in the Board review system. There 

15 is a filter, a Work Group filter. If you 

16 click on that -- it is a dropdown -- there is 

17 all the different site-specific Working 

18 Groups. I think what we are talking about, 

19 then, is Work Group on Overarching Issues, or 

20 something like that, that would appear in this 

21 dropdown list, that we could transfer findings 

22 to when we deemed it was appropriate, right?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: That is what I en 

2 visioned.

3 MR. KATZ: Yes. And my only 

4 question is I don't know why this Procedures 

5 Subcommittee wouldn't be the Work -- why 

6 wouldn't it be the default, instead of having 

7 a virtual Work Group?

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is a place to 

9 put the things in the document --

10 MR. KATZ: Yes.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- but we could be 

12 the owners.

13 DR. ULSH: Because there is a time 

14 period before -- the issue is identified, and 

15 then, at some later point in time, NIOSH picks 

16 it up and issues a procedure. But, in the 

17 interim, we need to make sure that we have a 

18 place to put them, so they don't fall off the 

19 radar.

20 MR. KATZ: I know, but why not put 

21 them under Procedures, is what I am saying. 

22 Because these are findings, we have findings, 
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1 and we have this Subcommittee. Why not put 

2 them here?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, all the 

4 findings currently are tagged to specific 

5 documents.

6 MR. KATZ: I know, this is 

7 different.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean, the 

9 structure of the application is such that you 

10 have a document and you have these findings 

11 under that document.

12 CHAIR MUNN: So, we need a title 

13 for the pulldown that will indicate for us 

14 that this is a corral that we are holding 

15 things in to assure all involved that they 

16 will be addressed in the appropriate manner, 

17 things we don't want to lose, regardless of 

18 where they came from. And we may need to give 

19 a little thought to exactly what our 

20 terminology needs to be because we don't want 

21 to be misleading on this.

22 But if we are going to gather 
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1 things, we have need of a place to gather 

2 them. And certainly, our database that we 

3 have worked so assiduously on seems to be the 

4 logical place. I still believe it could be 

5 cumbersome, but it seems to be the most

6 logical place to do it.

7 And Ted's position that Procedures 

8 is the de facto spot to look at them is well9 taken.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, let me ask a 

11 question of Stu. Could NIOSH think, or DCAS, 

12 could you conceivably have almost virtual 

13 documents that don't actually exist, except 

14 maybe in title?

15 For example, let's suppose that an 

16 overarching issue was how do you evaluate hot 

17 particles on Asians.

18 (Laughter.)

19 I don't know. Or, you know, it is 

20 some issue where we say that it could apply to 

21 many sites. Could you have a collection of 

22 documents that don't actually exist, but are 
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1 identified by title --

2 MR. STIVER: It is basically 

3 topics.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: They are topical, 

5 you know, "proposed procedure on...." that we 

6 could dump a finding in, if it related to that 

7 topic under this virtual thing that you are 

8 talking about.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: In other words, a 

11 document hasn't been developed, but we know it 

12 has to be, and we already have some findings 

13 to go in it, originally start to populate the 

14 document that doesn't exist with some 

15 findings --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- that the 

18 document is going to have to address?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: That seems 

20 eminently doable to me.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, you might 

22 need to think about what that would look like. 
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1 Defining on something that doesn't exist is 

2 kind of weird, but --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: We may have a 

4 position where we -- I was just trying to 

5 think about how this could work. Because the 

6 structure right now, you know, it is hinged on 

7 there is a document, there is a technical 

8 document, and then there is a list of 

9 findings. That is the way the structure is 

10 now.

11 So, in order to now start 

12 collecting overarching issues, which maybe we 

13 don't know what kind of a document they go 

14 with, we have to do one of two things. You 

15 invent a document for that specific issue --

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: -- and say such18 and-such, and then it has one finding under 

19 it.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: But, I mean, 

21 suppose there was no document on --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- resuspension 

2 factors.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: What would you do 

5 with these findings?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And then, the 

7 other way would be you could say there might 

8 be occasion in terms of this angular 

9 sensitivity where there might be more than one 

10 thing that goes in there.

11 So, I think that, as a going in, 

12 what we should plan to do is to say that the 

13 referral, once we decide there is an 

14 overarching issue, we will generate, as you 

15 say, sort of a make-believe document, just a 

16 title. We could probably invent some 

17 numbering system.

18 MR. KATZ: You can code it "FD", 

19 future document.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. HINNEFELD: And why not?

22 CHAIR MUNN: How about just "PD", 
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1 potential document.

2 MR. KATZ: Potential, right, 

3 whatever.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, exactly. And 

5 you put it in there, and then you would write 

6 the one finding.

7 MR. KATZ: Right.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: You maybe have to 

9 do it every time. Every time you have an 

10 overarching issue, write "Potential Document" 

11 such-and-such, give it a title, write the one 

12 finding. And so, you have got all these 

13 documents in one finding.

14 I mean, to me, that is the way to 

15 start.

16 MR. KATZ: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: You may decide 

18 later on that there is some other way to do 

19 it. Chances are you can modify it.

20 MR. KATZ: And actually, I mean, 

21 in some of these topics, you actually have a 

22 lot of discussion already which you could put 
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1 in that system. You could put the links in 

2 there --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

4 MR. KATZ: -- for the discussion.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

6 MR. KATZ: Because some of these 

7 are well-discussed --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

9 MR. KATZ: -- although they are 

10 not solved.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: What you do have 

12 the capability in the database right now is 

13 you could do a filter on anything that has 

14 been transferred or anything that is 

15 "addressed in."

16 MR. KATZ: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: All the 

18 transferred ones you can pull up.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: You can pull up and 

20 you kind of walk through these. I was looking 

21 for one that basically transferred to an 

22 overarching issues, but I can't seem to find 
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1 an example of that.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: TBD-6000, we have 

3 the resuspension factor finding that got 

4 transferred.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Everything in 

6 TBD-6000 was transferred out of this group 

7 into your group.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, but some of 

9 the TBD findings got transferred to 

10 overarching --

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- if you want to 

13 pull one up.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: But we haven't been 

15 tracking them. They were just transferred to 

16 your group. In this database tracking --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, where does 

18 our group transfer them to?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: That's --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, no other 

21 group is keeping their work on the system. 

22 So, your transfer would not be reflected.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: But, in principle, 

2 where would it go?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, in 

4 principle, you would have --

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: In principle, that 

6 one you would pull out and say that is going 

7 to go this other group instead TBD-6000 

8 because it is overarching.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: The finding on --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes. Yes, I 

12 understand.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is all I am 

14 saying.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right now, it is 

17 in the Work Group, but if you had this other 

18 mechanism, you would pull it out. So, these 

19 five are going to the Work Group and this one 

20 is overarching; it is going over here.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Well, for the time 
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1 being, can we just simply add to our list of 

2 Work Groups one more thing that says, 

3 "Procedures Subcommittee Potential Document 

4 Topic?" Just have a heading for that and put 

5 our "PD" --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Can we keep the 

7 term "overarching issue"? I mean, we have 

8 called these overarching issues for so long. 

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Can we just keep 

11 the term "overarching issue?"

12 MR. KATZ: You can code it 

13 whatever is easiest.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Potential overarching 

15 topic.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: And then, we will 

17 have to design with our TST guys, you know, 

18 sit down with them and give them the answers 

19 on what kind of analogs to use for each of the 

20 things that are proceeding from the database. 

21 And then, we will just design a set of rules 

22 for that. Then, I think we can do most of the 
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1 design.

2 Steve, we might get you on the 

3 phone, if you want.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: And we will see 

6 what we can do with the TST guys. And then, 

7 we will try to load Jim's overarching issues 

8 and whatever other ones we identify. We will 

9 include the TBD-6000 overarching issues.

10 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Would it 

11 be helpful for us to consider having our 

12 telephone call sometime between now and our 

13 next meeting to brainstorm a little bit what 

14 some of the beginning topics are going to be, 

15 a very short phone call, an hour or so?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: About which of the 

17 overarching issues you want to take up first?

18 CHAIR MUNN: Right. Well, no, 

19 ideas about what needs to go on the list to 

20 begin with. Or would you prefer to build the 

21 first scaffold yourselves?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I would propose 
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1 that we should build the first part ourselves.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Very good.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Because we have 

4 got Jim's list.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We know Paul said 

7 the TBD-6000 Work Group has transferred a 

8 number of the ones that were transferred from 

9 here to them.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: But there are only 

11 some that are on that list.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Then, we 

13 can comb through DR reports, you know, 

14 reviews, as we can, and look for overarching 

15 issue kind of solutions, comments on the 

16 matrices.

17 CHAIR MUNN: We have already 

18 discussed badge geometry here.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: We can try to move 

20 those over there. So, yes, I mean, we can try 

21 to build the list first.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes, and you can give 
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1 John a ring to see that your list includes 

2 what SC&A thinks have been identified as 

3 overarching issues.

4 MR. STIVER: Coordinating this 

5 with the Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee 

6 would be very important, too, because part of 

7 those are going, you know, discussions and 

8 some may already be captured.

9 MR. KATZ: Yes. So, you can 

10 check, but --

11 CHAIR MUNN: I am thinking of how 

12 many matrices you are going to go through. 

13 Good luck with that.

14 (Laughter.)

15 But very good. At least we will 

16 have a kickoff next time. We don't anticipate 

17 a lot of good meat to begin with.

18 DR. ULSH: Well, just to make sure 

19 that I have got these things appropriately 

20 prioritized, I have got in my notes right now, 

21 anyway, that the highest priority is the 

22 "Wanda summary list".
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

2 DR. ULSH: And also high priority 

3 is fix the Total Active Findings column. I 

4 don't think that will be difficult.

5 I mean, the summary list will be 

6 significant.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

8 DR. ULSH: But the other one 

9 shouldn't be. If we can get those done, then 

10 next on the list would be the overarching 

11 issues capacity or --

12 CHAIR MUNN: I believe so.

13 Comment, Steve?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Just a point. I 

15 noticed, happened to notice that, when we 

16 updated OTIB-6, the Active Findings column 

17 basically was updated. When we updated 

18 OTIB-70, it was not updated.

19 So, I was kind of thinking that 

20 you made a phone call and turned somebody on, 

21 but it looked like the OTIB-6 updates, if you 

22 look at OTIB-6 here now, if I can find it 
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1 quickly, OTIB-6 is now showing me we have

2 total findings four, active findings none. 

3 So, that is reflects what is going on.

4 But if we go back and look at --

5 you remember we closed out 70.

6 MR. KATZ: Right.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: If we go back and 

8 look at 70, and you go back and here's 

9 OTIB-70, it still has all the findings as 

10 being active. So, I don't know what it is 

11 doing.

12 MR. KATZ: But that is a good 

13 example, actually, to provide to the computer 

14 folks because that will help them figure out 

15 what is going on.

16 MR. STIVER: It is some good 

17 diagnostic information they can use.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes, right. Because 

19 they have the date when we changed it, and now 

20 they know exactly what should have happened.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Has it been 

22 refreshed? Did one get refreshed and the 
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1 other didn't?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, we changed 6 

3 after we changed OTIB-70.

4 MR. KATZ: Yes. Hypothesis 1.

5 (Laughter.)

6 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, well.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: I mean, I was 

8 thinking we did 6 after lunch and 70 before 

9 lunch. And I was thinking maybe, if Brant had 

10 contacted them, maybe they got right on the 

11 ball and did something.

12 DR. ULSH: Sadly, no.

13 (Laughter.)

14 That's not what happened.

15 CHAIR MUNN: But it is baffling 

16 because one wonders whether there was some 

17 mechanism of which we were unaware that was 

18 different in the way those --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: They were updated.

20 CHAIR MUNN: -- changes were made.

21 MR. KATZ: That is for the 

22 computer folks to puzzle through. There is no 
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1 point in us trying to ponder the thing.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because, remember, 

3 my thing pulled up some old information. Who 

4 knows where that came from.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Well, we will let 

6 them work on that, and everybody knows what 

7 they are going to do with that, which is a lot 

8 of work, but, hopefully, it will turn out to 

9 be not as difficult as expected.

10 We are going to move on to status 

11 of the two-pagers. We are moving very slowly, 

12 but we are moving.

13 I am assuming that all of you 

14 received the markups that Dr. Ziemer provided 

15 for us last week. Well, he provided them to 

16 me before that. But I have not added my 

17 markups to those.

18 But you have a good starting 

19 point. Do you have any concerns about any of 

20 those that he has identified?

21 I actually rewrote the four PROCs 

22 that you saw, mostly rewrote them, not 
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1 entirely. But I had intended those to be 

2 pretty much as final as possible because I 

3 hadn't had any feedback from anybody about any 

4 of them.

5 I don't know whether, Paul, have 

6 you had an opportunity to read the ones that I 

7 redid or not?

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: I read the first 

9 one, but I realized I needed to put it side10 by-side with the others, and I hadn't done 

11 that. So, basically, the answer is, no, I 

12 didn't really go through them.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Has anyone had an 

14 opportunity to go through any of them?

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Are these 

16 different ones?

17 CHAIR MUNN: Those four are the 

18 first four on the full list that was sent out 

19 by Ted. He sent the whole list of --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: OTIB-0006. Yes, 

21 what I was saying, that I didn't put yours 

22 side-by-side with mine to see whether we were 
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1 thinking in the same terms or not.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I didn't see 

3 that you had those four PROCs on your list.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, they're 

5 there.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: No, it is PROCs, 

7 not OTIBs, Paul.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, well, I took 

9 Ted's and I thought I did every one. I did 

10 30-some different ones.

11 CHAIR MUNN: I think I only got 

12 about 20.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Here's PROC-0006 

14 that I did.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, you did?

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is 0060 or 6?

17 CHAIR MUNN: No, it is 0006. And 

18 then, there's 0060. There's No. 6 and there's 

19 No. 60. There's 31.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I thought I 

21 did every one that Ted had sent. Yes, here's 

22 0006. So, that's OTIB. Yours is PROC. Well, 
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1 I don't know. How did I miss that? I don't 

2 know.

3 CHAIR MUNN: I don't know, but 

4 maybe we need to have some phone calls or some 

5 email exchanges about this.

6 Does anyone have anything to say 

7 about anything that they see with respect to 

8 these two pagers so far?

9 Dick, have you had an opportunity 

10 to look at any of these? Dick, are you still 

11 with us?

12 (No response.)

13 He said he might not be able to 

14 stay the whole time.

15 Here's what I propose, since I 

16 don't think anyone has had an opportunity to 

17 really do anything with these: I am going to 

18 continue doing what I have done so far.

19 But the first thing I am going to 

20 do is spend some time with what Paul has 

21 already done and make any discussions with him 

22 about my concerns and what changes I feel 
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1 might be made to shorten -- my primary concern 

2 is shortening them for the most part.

3 But these were pretty brief to 

4 begin with. My primary concern with what is 

5 there is the continued use of acronyms and 

6 several other things I would like to take out. 

7 But we can avoid that; that is easy enough. 

8 But it is what I have tried to do with the 

9 four that I have done.

10 And that will give you an 

11 opportunity to read the four that I did to see 

12 if you have any grief with it, Paul.

13 And we will try to seek especially 

14 Dr. Lemen, who has been active with us when we 

15 went through this. We will make sure that he 

16 is in the loop with what we are doing here.

17 Hopefully, we will be able to 

18 bring a proposal to you at our next meeting 

19 that incorporates all of the two-pagers that 

20 have already been drafted, which will 

21 eliminate the things that we have agreed we 

22 are going to eliminate and try to smooth them 
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1 out a little.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: Hello, this is 

3 Dick. Can you hear me?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, yes, Dick. Now 

5 we can hear you.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: I had to hang up 

7 and call back because I couldn't get the 

8 stupid thing off of mute.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, I'm sorry about 

10 that.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: So, anyhow, my 

12 comments, if you still want them, are that I 

13 would like to have a little bit more time on 

14 those two-pagers. I have started on them, but 

15 I haven't finished all of them.

16 But I think we have made some good 

17 progress, and I really appreciated Paul's 

18 comments. I thought that his comments on them 

19 helped me a lot.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, they are 

21 helpful. There's no question about it. As I 

22 said, the only additions that I am likely to 
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1 make, from what I have seen of Paul's work so 

2 far, is just to eliminate some of the acronyms 

3 and one or two of the other simplifying things 

4 that we have agreed on.

5 I appreciate that, Dick. Did you 

6 hear me say that it is our hope that we can 

7 incorporate you into the loop that Paul and I 

8 have been working on here to move these 

9 forward a little? Are you going to be able to 

10 do that?

11 MEMBER LEMEN: So, yes, I will.

12 MR. KATZ: Dick, just trying to be 

13 concrete, how much time do you need to get 

14 through them yourself, do you think?

15 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I would like 

16 a couple more weeks at least.

17 CHAIR MUNN: That is generally my 

18 thought. I am going to try to get my thoughts 

19 on Paul's work out within that period of time, 

20 and I will get them to both you and Paul. If 

21 you have any additional or feel that we are 

22 being too sparse or too broad in cases, just 
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1 please feel free to let me know.

2 MR. KATZ: So, let me just say I 

3 think, if the three of you want to conclude 

4 that work, you don't have to wait until next 

5 Subcommittee meeting to get these done and 

6 posted. You can just, once you have concluded 

7 and the three of you are happy with the 

8 product --

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: I was going to 

10 suggest that if Dick Lemen and I give our 

11 comments to Wanda, I am happy if she just 

12 makes the final editorial decision, and then 

13 that is the copy we will post.

14 And just for comment, a lot of 

15 mine are trying to eliminate acronyms --

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- and then, also, 

18 to use different terms. I am just looking at 

19 one right now, for example, where we say 

20 "computer methodology," just call it "computer 

21 calculations."

22 CHAIR MUNN: Or even "computer 
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1 methods."

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Or "computer 

3 methods."

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: And where it says 

6 "the prostate gland could be modeled by the 

7 testes," I don't know if people know what 

8 "modeled" means.

9 CHAIR MUNN: No, no.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: You know, are you 

11 modeling?

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. No, we have 

13 discussed --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Wanda, I see I 

15 spelled "represented by" here wrong, 

16 "represented-ed-ed."

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. Those are the 

18 kinds of things.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: But get some 

20 simpler words, a few cases where I eliminated 

21 dangling participles in some of these --

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, yes.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- which tend to 

2 be used over and over by scientific writers.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, they do, and 

4 they also have a tendency to use the same 

5 terminology sentence after sentence after 

6 sentence.

7 As just a passing point of 

8 interest, and as a point of record of how 

9 difficult some of these things are, one of the 

10 summaries of the PROCs that I sent you had to 

11 do with, its title even included the word 

12 "ambient."

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Well, "ambient" is a 

15 word that means something to every single 

16 person here. But my thought was there are a 

17 great many people for whom the word "ambient" 

18 may not be clear.

19 I am concerned about the fact that 

20 in the draft that had been sent they used, 

21 said in parentheses, "environmental." And I 

22 thought, well, "ambient" is not actually 
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1 environmental. It is something different than 

2 that.

3 So, I whipped up through my 

4 electronic thesaurus. And would you believe 

5 that there is no synonym given for "ambient?"

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I think that 

7 is one that I had spent some time on, too. 

8 The ones particularly where it is in the 

9 title, you can't change that.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. No, you can't.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: But you can 

12 explain it.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: And there were a 

15 couple of them that the explanations that were 

16 in there were very complex.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Partially, 

19 sentences just had to be broken into little 

20 pieces.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. There 

22 isn't any other way you can get around that.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: And so, it can be 

2 done. I am satisfied to have you make the 

3 final decision this.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I came to the 

5 conclusion in that particular case that 

6 probably "environmental" conveys as much of 

7 the context that was intended in that case as 

8 any other word could be. So, I left it as 

9 well.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: I would concur with 

11 Paul. I will make my comments and just send 

12 them to Paul and Wanda. And I agree to let 

13 Wanda make the final decision on it.

14 MR. KATZ: Okay. And so, Wanda, 

15 if you will, just at the end of that process, 

16 if you will send me the finals, I will get 

17 them to DCAS to get posted.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. All 

19 right. That is what we will do.

20 The only other item that I have 

21 left on the agenda -- oh, no, there are two. 

22 We had asked for some time to make a couple of 
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1 comments about PER use.

2 MR. STIVER: Actually, there are a 

3 couple of different things we might look at. 

4 Given the fact that we are probably about 85 

5 percent complete on addressing the findings of 

6 the original 500, it kind of brings up the 

7 issue, well, where do we go from here?

8 And I contacted Brant in search 

9 for an updated listing of the current active 

10 documents as well as prospective documents. 

11 The last version we had was from January of 

12 2009.

13 Steve went through and just looked 

14 at the TIBs and looked at the revisions and 

15 whether they appeared to be substantive 

16 changes that might warrant potential follow-on 

17 reviews, and I believe came up with about 11 

18 of them that were possible candidates.

19 And so, that is something we want 

20 to look into. We are charged with monitoring 

21 these to determine when a substantive change 

22 comes along that may warrant this type of 
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1 review, that we bring it to the attention of 

2 the group.

3 Another thing is that, because we 

4 don't have the glitch fixed in the Board 

5 review system, we are identifying completely 

6 closed-out findings to put together a list of 

7 OTIBs that may require two-pagers. At this 

8 point, we have to go through it basically by 

9 hand and sort through those. We can certainly 

10 do that, but I think that is another thing

11 that is kind of on the back burner.

12 I mean, I see this, going forward, 

13 we are going to be looking more at PER 

14 development and tracking and all the issues 

15 that go along with that, as well as wrapping 

16 them up with these two-pagers. So, that is 

17 kind of where we stand on the OTIBs.

18 As far as the PERs, Kathy 

19 Behling --

20 MR. KATZ: So, before we go 

21 forward with that, though, the procedures that 

22 you have identified that are possible 
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1 candidates, are you going to send a document 

2 to the Subcommittee, so that they can see?

3 MR. STIVER: Yes, at this point, 

4 it is kind of we are waiting for Brant to give 

5 us an updated version of that. Some of these 

6 documents on here that we had reviewed are no 

7 longer there or are not on this list. So, 

8 they have been retired.

9 MR. KATZ: Okay.

10 MR. STIVER: So, we would like to 

11 get the complete list before we put together 

12 any kind of definitive subgrouping on that.

13 MR. KATZ: Okay.

14 MR. STIVER: But that is the 

15 ultimate goal.

16 CHAIR MUNN: That would be 

17 helpful.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: This is what this 

19 document looks like that we put together. You 

20 can see some of them are missing a web number. 

21 What we did, as John said, we pulled this 

22 information off of a NIOSH-approved document 
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1 list which was dated January 2009. So, it is 

2 dated.

3 OTIB-3 was not on the list. You 

4 will see some that don't have any numbers in 

5 here, and it is not on the list. And the 

6 reason there are no numbers is because that 

7 particular OTIB was not in the document from 

8 2009.

9 And then, over here you can see 

10 basically SC&A -- first, we have a column 

11 whether or not we reviewed the document, when 

12 we reviewed it, and what revision we would 

13 use. Then, the final column we have got is, 

14 is it a candidate for re-review or initial 

15 review, if we hadn't already reviewed it?

16 And for re-review, what I did, 

17 basically, was if there was a full revision 

18 number between what we reviewed and what is 

19 currently, then I said, yes, that is a 

20 candidate. If there was basically Rev. 0 here 

21 and we reviewed Rev. 0, then it is no 

22 candidate for review.
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1 Some places there was a page 

2 change.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay, but just to go 

4 back to your first sort of criterion, a full 

5 rev. change, but in some cases you will find 

6 that, yes, there is a full rev. change, but it 

7 is all followup responses that have been 

8 derived from this work, and you don't need to 

9 review it because it is all followup from --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: That is why this is 

11 just an initial cut.

12 MR. KATZ: Yes.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: This is just a 

14 first cut.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Some of them, we 

16 are awaiting confirmation that the change is 

17 in the document, right?

18 MR. KATZ: Right.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: And that would 

21 verify that.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: We would already do 

2 that. If it was just the changes that we had 

3 already requested, that should already be done 

4 as part of the closeout of those findings. 

5 So, that is what we did.

6 And the other thing was document 

7 OTIB-9, which basically was revised, we had 

8 not reviewed it. I did not make it as a 

9 candidate because it is a site-specific OTIB. 

10 And so, I felt that that was more appropriate 

11 for -- anything that was site-specific would 

12 be more appropriate for a Work Group than it 

13 would be for this group.

14 MR. KATZ: Right.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: So, we can forward 

16 you this.

17 MR. KATZ: Well, it is not ready 

18 yet. So, you don't need to --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: But this is kind of 

20 like the approach that we are taking.

21 MR. STIVER: This is just to make 

22 you aware of what we are planning here. I 
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1 assume that within about a week or two we will 

2 have that. Brant indicated, when he gets back 

3 from Savannah River, he can go ahead and put 

4 together an updated document.

5 MR. KATZ: That sounds good.

6 MR. STIVER: Yes.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Good. All right. 

8 That will be very helpful information to have.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: You are talking 

10 about the list of documents that are out 

11 there, right?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Did Brant say 

14 anything about the utility of the existing 

15 applications? Because we were trying to set 

16 it up, so when a new document got published, 

17 it would appear in the application under the 

18 to-be-assigned queue. What's that called?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Unassigned.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Unassigned queue.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Unassigned queue.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: I don't hear anything 

2 about that.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, no. No. 

4 This is Brant and me talking to each other, 

5 okay?

6 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think you 

8 would have heard that.

9 CHAIR MUNN: I wouldn't have.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: And I am not sure 

11 -- now if you look there now, you will see a 

12 long list of procedures or documents, and the 

13 reason they are in this is because the last 

14 time we met all the documents, the application 

15 grab that that -- the application knew about 

16 were under these documents that are Board 

17 reviewed.

18 We have split them up. I did this 

19 partially for the numbers I presented at the 

20 last Board meeting. We split them up into 

21 unassigned and under Board review, but the 

22 only way we could do that easily and without 
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1 actually looking at each one was to put any 

2 document that had zero findings in the 

3 unassigned queue.

4 So, if there were any documents 

5 that SC&A reviewed but had zero findings on 

6 them -- it seems like there were one or two 

7 -- they would be in this list incorrect 

8 because the Board has actually reviewed those.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: And then, all the 

11 documents with findings are in the documents 

12 under Board review list, when you pull that 

13 list up.

14 My intention was that when a new 

15 document gets published, when a document is 

16 final and published, we have a specific place 

17 on our K: drive where that gets put. I want 

18 that document, then, to load into the 

19 unassigned queue in this application.

20 So, at anytime SC&A users can be 

21 able to look at the entire population of 

22 procedures that have not been reviewed and 
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1 decide, or the Board, the Work Group, are 

2 there things here that warrant review?

3 So, today, if you look at that, if 

4 there is anything in there that you think that 

5 warrants review, that might be a place to

6 start in terms of looking for additional 

7 things for review.

8 I don't know that it is 100 

9 percent up-to-date. I believe it is up-to10 date within a couple of months, but I don't 

11 know that it is 100 percent up-to-date. So, I 

12 will check with Brant and Tom and see if that 

13 is.

14 Because that would be my view, is 

15 whenever we publish something, it pops up in 

16 here in the assigned queue, or in the 

17 unassigned queue, and it doesn't mean it has 

18 to be assigned. It just means it is 

19 available.

20 MR. KATZ: Right, but that is 

21 good.

22 So, you got that, Steve?
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: I got that, yes. 

2 When we made this list, I wasn't aware that 

3 this "unassigned to" had been populated. I 

4 think back in September it wasn't populated.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: It wasn't then. 

6 We populated this before the December Board 

7 meeting.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: So, now that it is 

9 populated, we may be able to get rid of that 

10 matrix that I was doing or maybe I can just --

11 MR. STIVER: You can certainly can 

12 compare whatever Brant puts together.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

14 MR. STIVER: If there is anything 

15 new that has come out in a few-month interim, 

16 or there may be a few others in here that 

17 have zero findings as well, but it certainly 

18 gets us a real leg up on getting started.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that should be 

20 very helpful. Good.

21 Now I have been both dreading and 

22 expecting today that we were going to have to 
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1 face this, what else is out there. It is good 

2 to know that it is working.

3 MR. STIVER: And that kind of 

4 segues nicely into the PERs.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Into the PERs.

6 MR. STIVER: Because in looking 

7 through this unassigned queue, I discovered 

8 that all of the --

9 MEMBER LEMEN: This is Dick. 

10 Before you get started --

11 MR. KATZ: Sure, go ahead, Dick.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: I have to cut off 

13 now. I told Wanda I might have to cut off 

14 early, and I do.

15 So, Wanda or Ted, could you send 

16 me the date for the next meeting? And I will 

17 make sure I can get it on my calendar.

18 CHAIR MUNN: We will make sure to 

19 do that soon.

20 MR. KATZ: Yes.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: And if there is 

22 anything that comes up that you need my vote 
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1 on it before the end of this meeting, just 

2 send me a note and I will try to make my mind 

3 up on it.

4 MR. KATZ: Okay.

5 CHAIR MUNN: We have no votes 

6 scheduled.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay.

8 CHAIR MUNN: We will be in touch 

9 with respect to the two-pagers.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay. Happy new 

11 year all, and I am sorry I can't stay the next 

12 half-hour with you.

13 CHAIR MUNN: The same to you.

14 MR. KATZ: Thanks, Dick.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Bye-bye.

16 MEMBER LEMEN: Bye.

17 MR. KATZ: Bye-bye.

18 Sorry. Go ahead.

19 MR. STIVER: Yes, the other issue 

20 of what is out there are these PERs. Remember 

21 back before the St. Louis meeting Kathy 

22 Behling had put together this nice, little 
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1 summary that had a few different tables, table 

2 one being the PERs that had already been 

3 assigned, I believe of which there are 14. 

4 Eleven of those have been started, and they 

5 are in various stages of completion. Three 

6 have not been started yet.

7 And there was also an additional 

8 18 that she identified that had not yet been 

9 assigned. She went through a couple of days 

10 ago and updated that list and discovered there 

11 were two more PERs which she added to this 

12 list.

13 And looking last night, looking at 

14 this unassigned order of these documents, I 

15 found that essentially all of them are in that 

16 unassigned queue. So, the system you put 

17 together seems to be working.

18 However, there are two that --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Aren't there 

20 probably?

21 MR. STIVER: -- that we didn't 

22 have findings.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Are they there?

2 MR. STIVER: They showed up in 

3 there, too.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh.

5 MR. STIVER: At least the 

6 algorithm is working correctly.

7 CHAIR MUNN: That's wonderful.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: At least it was 

9 up-to-date when those two were --

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

11 MR. STIVER: So, Kathy, we 

12 probably could have saved her a day's work by 

13 having her look at this.

14 CHAIR MUNN: That is marvelous to 

15 hear that they are so current.

16 MR. STIVER: Yes. And so, we have 

17 gone through and kind of summarized where we 

18 were on the 14. Eleven of them are in stages 

19 of development. Seven of them are awaiting 

20 action by NIOSH. And then, beyond that, they 

21 will have to go to the Board for discussion.

22 But, of these other 20 that are 
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1 remaining, Kathy, if you have seen them, and 

2 take a look at the list there, this is the 

3 table two. She has them grouped, first, by 

4 the number of claimants. There is a kind of 

5 binary assignment by classification, if you 

6 will. One is the number of potentially 

7 affected claimants, and the other is the 

8 difficulty of the science that was involved in 

9 developing the change. Of course, this is 

10 reflected in the cost estimate for reviewing 

11 these things.

12 So, before we go on further than 

13 that, I want to go to this next -- there's 

14 four different subtests that we look at in 

15 doing these PER reviews. The last one is 

16 really, again, that set of representative dose 

17 reconstructions that have been done under the 

18 revised procedure and really doing the 

19 evaluation representation, were the agreed20 upon changes actually followed in any dose 

21 reconstructions.

22 As I understand it, there's only 
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1 the PER 12 cases assigned or 10 cases. They 

2 hit various aspects of the selection process. 

3 As of September, those cases have not yet 

4 been posted. And I was wondering if that was 

5 on the way to being posted?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Meaning the 

7 identity of the 10?

8 MR. STIVER: Just basically taking 

9 the administrative case files and putting them 

10 out there.

11 MR. KATZ: We talked about this at 

12 the Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee meeting. 

13 I mean, because I had assumed you had already 

14 gotten started on that at that point, and you 

15 folks made the comment that they had been 

16 posted.

17 We talked at that meeting about --

18 I mean, if there is something you need to get 

19 from Brant to go forward, you need to, but you 

20 were going to do that based on --

21 MR. STIVER: Yes, I just wanted to 

22 make a reminder that we have not yet -- they 
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1 are still not out there.

2 MR. KATZ: Okay. So, you just 

3 need to get on the line with Brant and get 

4 that solved, whatever that is.

5 MR. STIVER: Yes.

6 MR. KATZ: It doesn't need to 

7 await any action by any Subcommittee or Work 

8 Group.

9 MR. STIVER: Okay.

10 MR. KATZ: I don't understand why 

11 it has taken all this time to pick up the 

12 cases and work them.

13 CHAIR MUNN: An easy connection,

14 yes. We don't need to be an obstacle here --

15 MR. STIVER: Absolutely not.

16 CHAIR MUNN: -- moving forward.

17 MR. STIVER: But the other issue I 

18 have been thinking about is -- and we haven't 

19 really thought about this too much; maybe 

20 this is more of an issue to bring up in the 

21 Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee, but how to 

22 go about evaluating these cases. In my mind, 
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1 it seems that you are really looking at kind 

2 of a focused metric here. You are taking a 

3 look at how was the case done before the 

4 procedure was changed and looking at that. 

5 So, you are really just looking 

6 not at the broad spectrum of everything that 

7 would go into a full dose reconstruction, but 

8 really what is the outcome of this particular 

9 change in procedure. So, I see them as more 

10 focused reviews that could be expedited in 

11 comparison with a full dose reconstruction.

12 Because of that, I think they 

13 should be tracked separately, either within 

14 the Board review system or within a matrix and 

15 the Subcommittee. Keep them separate from 

16 those other cases and really track them 

17 differently.

18 I was a little concerned about the 

19 database that we have here. But, after seeing 

20 the improvements that have been made, I think 

21 we can link PDFs and transfer findings, and I 

22 think it is a very good tool.
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1 I am not sure if David Richardson, 

2 becoming the new Chair of that Committee, is 

3 even aware of what is needed at this point. I 

4 know, as Mark has been kind of been pulled 

5 more and more into his Chemical Review Board 

6 work, he has been less and less involved. And 

7 so, I think that is something that maybe SC&A 

8 or this group could get together with David 

9 and kind of brief him on where we stand on 

10 this and what the issues are, and how we feel 

11 that should be handled.

12 MR. KATZ: Let me explain 

13 something because you may have missed it 

14 because John has been in here for this whole 

15 evolution, John Mauro.

16 DR. MAURO: I am here and I am 

17 listening.

18 MR. KATZ: Okay.

19 DR. MAURO: Keep going, Ted.

20 MR. KATZ: John Stiver hasn't been 

21 here for all of it.

22 So, the process is really the DR 
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1 Subcommittee, all they do is select the cases. 

2 That is their whole involvement in this. 

3 They are not involved in the review of the 

4 cases after. The cases come back, actually, 

5 to this Subcommittee for consideration about 

6 the implementation questions. So, really, 

7 they have a very small, limited, and sort of 

8 mechanical role of doing the selection of the 

9 cases once this Subcommittee assigns a PER to 

10 have its cases reviewed.

11 MR. STIVER: Okay. Although 

12 during the DR Subcommittee meetings we go 

13 through those findings.

14 MR. KATZ: But not for PERs. That 

15 is what I am saying. The Dose Reconstruction 

16 Subcommittee is not going to be evaluating the 

17 cases that are PER reviews.

18 MR. STIVER: Okay. Well, see, 

19 this is the thing I am not really 100 percent 

20 sure on.

21 MR. KATZ: Yes.

22 MR. STIVER: And so, that is the 
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1 kind of feedback I am interested in getting.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

3 MR. KATZ: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: This is John.

5 Ted, yes, one of the things I 

6 didn't do is get into this level of detail on 

7 this particular matter with John.

8 MR. KATZ: Sure.

9 DR. MAURO: You're right. I 

10 think, John, you came to the same place I did, 

11 but we didn't really have a chance to talk 

12 about it. I think these cases and each PER, 

13 not only the PER, the one, two, three steps, 

14 the first three steps that we completed be 

15 tracked as part of the Procedures 

16 Subcommittee, but also the findings related 

17 to, once we do do a review of the cases 

18 associated and track them here.

19 But the very important point that 

20 you just brought out is all we do is track 

21 that aspect of that DR that pertains to the 

22 PER issue at play. And so, you're right, it 
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1 would be a focused review.

2 Because, very often, a lot of 

3 these redone cases under a PER may very well 

4 reflect many different adjustments made to the 

5 dose reconstruction. My understanding from 

6 the last time we talked about it is this 

7 Subcommittee would only track those issues 

8 that are related to the PER itself.

9 MR. STIVER: Yes, that is exactly 

10 how I see it unfolding as well.

11 DR. MAURO: Yes. Okay.

12 MR. KATZ: What I have been 

13 assuming all along is at the end of that 

14 process where you have reviewed the 10 cases, 

15 for example, of PER-12, you will have reviewed 

16 those 10 cases. At the end of that review 

17 that you do, as opposed to the way you do DR 

18 reviews where you report out each DR case and 

19 you have a couple of Board Members with you 

20 and that whole process, you will have reviewed 

21 10 cases and you will produce one report that 

22 will basically explain here's what you found 
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1 about implementation. Yes, I mean, there will 

2 be, of course, details that may be of 

3 relevance in individual cases, but it will be 

4 a report on the whole.

5 MR. STIVER: And that is exactly 

6 how I envision the whole thing taking place.

7 MR. KATZ: Yes.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, what we can 

9 do is, for example, if you look at PER-12, 

10 right now we have one finding in PER-12. 

11 After you do your case review, we may have a 

12 half dozen more findings. We can just go in 

13 and add those findings to this PER and 

14 basically use this database. The way it is 

15 set up now, I think it should be relatively 

16 easy to use this to do that.

17 MR. KATZ: Yes.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: So, in a sense, 

19 this Subcommittee is the one that is going to 

20 be looking at it. We are already familiar 

21 with the database. So, it should flow 

22 naturally.
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1 MR. STIVER: We need to keep in 

2 mind here that there is a subtle difference. 

3 I mean, if a finding was uncovered during the 

4 review of the procedure, it doesn't 

5 necessarily reflect how well that procedure 

6 was implemented. They are really going to be 

7 kind of separate.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: It is going to be a 

9 finding. Now you will have, instead of having 

10 one finding, you will have several findings, 

11 but they will still be --

12 MR. STIVER: We need to make sure 

13 that everybody understands that there is a 

14 differential between those. Maybe there 

15 should be --

16 MR. KATZ: Code them as 

17 implementation findings or whatever, but --

18 MR. STIVER: They just need to be 

19 tracked.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, for example, 

21 take high-fired plutonium as an issue, and 

22 there was a finding that drove that. Now when 
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1 NIOSH goes back and does the PER process, Stu, 

2 on a given dose reconstruction, do they simply 

3 take the previous one and recalculate with the 

4 new solubility value in the system? Or is the 

5 dose fully reconstructed from start to finish? 

6 Do you know what I am asking?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. The dose is 

8 completely recalculated with current 

9 techniques. For instance, if a case had been 

10 done with TIB-2 -- that is not a good example.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. Yes, some 

12 other thing that changed. But these guys are 

13 only going to see, did they plug in the high14 fired plutonium --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: That's right.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- solubility, 

17 right?

18 MR. STIVER: Already I can see a 

19 problem here.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, that is why 

21 I am asking the question.

22 MR. STIVER: Yes.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because they may 

2 have a different workbook or something that 

3 they are using --

4 MR. STIVER: Yes.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- for the other 

6 parts of it.

7 MR. STIVER: Yes.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: But you have 

9 already addressed that in a different way?

10 MR. STIVER: Yes. These cases 

11 have already been through our review cycle in 

12 a reasonable period of time.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. But when 

14 they redo it, they may be doing it differently 

15 than it was the first time around.

16 MR. STIVER: So, that may confound 

17 our ability to do this in a very expedited --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, what would 

19 you look at -- say it was high-fired plutonium 

20 -- because the changing critical item there is 

21 that solubility factor?

22 MR. STIVER: Well, you could look 
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1 at that particular component. Say it was done 

2 under maybe IREP, or whatever --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

4 MR. STIVER: -- that subcategory 

5 of --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Here's what the 

7 old IREP gave and --

8 MR. STIVER: Yes, we just look at 

9 that and we look at the new method of how that 

10 was done, just compare the two.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: And the thing you 

12 won't know is whether or not, whatever the 

13 bottom line was, the change in the PoC was due 

14 entirely to that factor --

15 MR. STIVER: Rarely would you have 

16 that luxury of being able to just --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because there are 

18 some other things that might have changed that 

19 you aren't going to be looking at.

20 MR. KATZ: But it doesn't matter 

21 really because that is not the bulk of the 

22 review.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: What are they 

2 trying to report? What is it you are trying 

3 to achieve here?

4 MR. STIVER: We are going to be 

5 able to see, what are the methods and the 

6 corrective actions that have been implemented 

7 or recommended and put into the document? 

8 Were they actually implemented in the tail-end 

9 of the dose reconstruction process.

10 MR. KATZ: Right.

11 MR. STIVER: And that is really 

12 what we are concerned with. So, if we can 

13 identify how that aspect with high-fired 

14 plutonium, the task was done, and just compare 

15 it to the new way.

16 MR. KATZ: Right.

17 MR. STIVER: And then, we have got 

18 the differential. We have got that increment. 

19 Then, we can identify that.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: But what are you 

21 going to report on the 10 cases, for example, 

22 that they were all done correctly on that 
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1 item?

2 MR. STIVER: If we find findings 

3 that they weren't done correctly, then we 

4 would certainly list those.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

6 MR. STIVER: But it would be, yes, 

7 in this particular case I think there were 

8 five different exposure pathways or aspects of 

9 the scenario that could have given rise to a 

10 high-fired plutonium intake. So, we look at 

11 each of those and how well they were actually 

12 implemented in the process.

13 CHAIR MUNN: You reviewed the work 

14 and it was done --

15 MR. STIVER: We are not going to 

16 go into every aspect of whether a dosimeter is 

17 .015 or .013 rem for whatever reason.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: No.

19 MR. STIVER: That is not really --

20 we are not going to look at the total universe 

21 of potential findings, only those that are 

22 pertinent to the change in procedure.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: But, then, you 

2 would take all the cases, the 10 cases, 20 

3 cases, whatever it is, and then you would say, 

4 for example, 19 of these seem to be done

5 correctly, but this other one doesn't --

6 MR. STIVER: Yes, it would be one 

7 overarching report that would look at kind of 

8 the entire package of those cases. We 

9 wouldn't look at each one separately.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: This may be a case 

11 where you sort of have to develop the 

12 methodology. I mean, we did this in some of 

13 the other stuff.

14 MR. STIVER: Yes.

15 (Simultaneous speakers.)

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: When you get into 

17 it, you say --

18 MR. STIVER: We also have to go 

19 through -- and this is going to be a nice test 

20 case. This is how we are going to work out 

21 all the kinks. Think of it as the beta 

22 version, I guess. Things are going to come up 
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1 that we didn't anticipate, and we will have to 

2 come up with --

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yet another work-in4 progress.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

6 MR. STIVER: Yes, another work-in7 progress.

8 DR. MAURO: And this is John.

9 What is good is that this PER-12, 

10 which is the high-fired plutonium, I believe, 

11 is poised to be done. I think we were hoping 

12 to have all those 10 cases in folders. But 

13 that is going to be a very nice pilot. We 

14 will do it, and we will put our report 

15 together. And it will take form, and everyone 

16 will have a chance to say, okay, yes, this is 

17 the way we would like to see the product.

18 So, the reality is, until you 

19 actually do one and see how it unfolds -- and 

20 this is a good one because it is somewhat 

21 complicated. It will reveal to everyone and 

22 the Subcommittee what the product is and how 
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1 useful it is to the process.

2 My sense is that this is in a 

3 funny sort of way where we are all headed to. 

4 In the end, the whole mission of the Board is 

5 SECs and DRs. And here's the end result of 

6 the DR review process. All of the Site 

7 Profile Reviews, all the SEC petition reviews, 

8 and all the procedure reviews, eventually, the 

9 reason we are doing most of this is to see, is 

10 there a process in place where the corrections 

11 are made when they need to be made? This is 

12 sort of like the end of the line.

13 So, I think this is going to be 

14 important. This outcome of the review of the 

15 PERs is going to be like the final step in the 

16 review process that triggered the need to make 

17 these changes in the procedures and the degree 

18 to which they were, in fact, implemented.

19 CHAIR MUNN: I think you're right, 

20 John.

21 MR. STIVER: That is a good 

22 summary, John.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Good.

2 MR. STIVER: It ties it all 

3 together.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you for the 

5 information, both on the struggles you have 

6 been going through and where we are.

7 MR. STIVER: I guess at the tail8 end of that we would want to produce a two9 pager when we are completely finished up. I 

10 saw there is already in that list of the two11 pagers there is a couple of PERs in there that 

12 require no followup action.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. We have done 

14 one, two.

15 MR. STIVER: There were two of 

16 them.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think we have 

18 done two that we have already gone through the 

19 process.

20 All right.

21 MR. KATZ: Very good.

22 CHAIR MUNN: The only 
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1 administrative item that I have is our next 

2 meeting. Does anyone else have any other 

3 administrative items that we need to address?

4 DR. MAURO: This is John.

5 I had to step away for about 20 

6 minutes. I know that Ted mentioned a two7 pager for OTIB-70.

8 MR. KATZ: Yes.

9 DR. MAURO: Did you folks talk 

10 about any other two-pagers? Did I miss any? 

11 Did you discuss the possibility of having 

12 another round of two-pagers?

13 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, we took care of 

14 all of them and cleaned them all up, John.

15 (Laughter.)

16 DR. MAURO: Okay. Thank you very 

17 much.

18 MR. KATZ: No, no, John, Wanda is 

19 teasing you.

20 DR. MAURO: Oh, she's teasing me?

21 MR. KATZ: But you can't see her 

22 to tell that, although you could assume it 
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1 always.

2 (Laughter.)

3 CHAIR MUNN: How unusual.

4 MR. KATZ: But that is the only 

5 new assignment of a two-pager so far that we 

6 have discussed.

7 MR. STIVER: Yes, we talked about 

8 that while you were out.

9 DR. MAURO: Yes.

10 MR. STIVER: It was how could we 

11 identify those, either by just brute force 

12 going through and looking at all the ones that 

13 have closed-down findings. And I guess we 

14 will have to do that until such time as the 

15 review system can correctly handle tallying 

16 the closed findings.

17 So, I think at this point we don't 

18 know how many other potential candidates are 

19 out there for two-pagers.

20 CHAIR MUNN: But I think we have 

21 our plate full in any case, John.

22 DR. MAURO: Okay.
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1 MR. KATZ: Are we looking at 

2 dates?

3 CHAIR MUNN: We are looking at 

4 dates. And as usual, the key factor is how 

5 long will it take us to get many of the things 

6 done that we want to get done. I hate to put 

7 us too far out there, but I don't know about 

8 other people's calendars. Obviously, February 

9 is out of the question. That's too soon.

10 (Laughter.)

11 And my March calendar is starting 

12 to look pretty cluttered. But I could do the 

13 -- no, not the week before Oakland.

14 MR. KATZ: No, we won't get enough 

15 work done to have a meeting before -- we have 

16 to be looking at April I think, well into 

17 April, before we would have productive work.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. So, you don't 

19 think the third week in March is even 

20 feasible?

21 MR. KATZ: I don't think it is 

22 sensible in terms of how much gets done.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: What about the first 

2 week in April? Is the first week in April 

3 possible?

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't see 

5 anything that would preclude it on our side 

6 right now.

7 MR. KATZ: Who has a good sense 

8 for what is on people's plates and timing?

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Again, I think most 

10 of the balls are in NIOSH's court because we 

11 have made our findings and we don't have 

12 anything under active review at this point.

13 MR. KATZ: Well, you have some 

14 things, responses you are going to review that 

15 we have talked about today.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

17 MR. KATZ: But not any new 

18 material.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: No. Right.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, they should 

21 be getting some TBD-6000 stuff this week, I 

22 think.
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1 MR. KATZ: Well, yes.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, it was due 

3 out last week from NIOSH, a White Paper.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: But that has been 

5 transferred out of this Subcommittee.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, you are just 

7 talking about this Subcommittee? No, but I 

8 thought you said SC&A --

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, SC&A for this 

10 Subcommittee.

11 MR. KATZ: What sort of timeframe 

12 are we thinking about with respect to the dose 

13 reconstruction review for PER-12? How many 

14 months is that effort? Ten cases.

15 MR. STIVER: Ten cases.

16 MR. KATZ: And it is a narrow 

17 dimension that you are looking at.

18 MR. STIVER: It is a narrow 

19 dimension. I could say probably by mid- to 

20 late April we should be able to have 

21 something. That is my best sense for it.

22 CHAIR MUNN: So, if we aimed for 
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1 Tuesday, the 3rd, would that be feasible?

2 MR. KATZ: John was just saying 

3 mid- to late April would be for the PER-12 

4 cases.

5 So, Stu, what are your thoughts 

6 about it since you have deliverables?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: That should be a 

8 straightforward issue. You just want them 

9 written somewhere on the O: drive?

10 MR. STIVER: Just to post the 

11 administrative files.

12 MR. KATZ: No, I am not talking 

13 about the PER-12. I am just talking about in 

14 terms of deliverables for the Subcommittee for 

15 the next meeting.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Mid-April is what, 

17 three months away? Let's just make a point of 

18 having some things ready.

19 MR. KATZ: Okay.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Mid-week?

21 MR. STIVER: Mid-week works for 

22 me.
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1 MR. KATZ: Mid-week of what week?

2 CHAIR MUNN: The 11th.

3 MR. KATZ: Sorry. Okay, the 11th?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Would April 11 be 

5 feasible?

6 MR. KATZ: It is open on my 

7 calendar right now.

8 CHAIR MUNN: April 11th?

9 MR. KATZ: Okay.

10 CHAIR MUNN: 9:00 a.m.

11 Okay. Good.

12 Is there anything else that we 

13 need to have on our plate that we have not yet 

14 covered?

15 (No response.)

16 If not, then we are adjourned. 

17 Thank you all very much. I do appreciate your 

18 effort more than I can say, and you will be 

19 hearing from us with a bunch of two-pagers.

20 MR. KATZ: Everyone else on the 

21 line, thank you.

22 (Whereupon, at 2:39 p.m., the 
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1 meeting was adjourned.)