1 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES 

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL 

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND 

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON DOSE RECONSTRUCTION REVIEWS 

+ + + + + 

MONDAY 

NOVEMBER 8, 2010 

+ + + + + 

The Subcommittee convened in the 

Zurich Room of the Cincinnati Airport

Marriott, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron,

Kentucky, at 9:00 a.m., Mark Griffon,

Chairman, presiding. 

PRESENT: 

MARK GRIFFON, Chairman

BRADLEY P. CLAWSON, Member

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member*

WANDA I. MUNN, Member

JOHN W. POSTON, SR., Member

ROBERT W. PRESLEY, Member

DAVID B. RICHARDSON, Member* 

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2 

ALSO PRESENT: 

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor*

ISAF AL-NABULSI, DOE*

ROBERT ALVAREZ, SC&A*

KATHY BEHLING, SC&A*

DOUGLAS FARVER, SC&A

STU HINNEFELD, DCAS

EMILY HOWELL, HHS*

JENNY LIN, HHS*

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

SCOTT SIEBERT, DCAS*

BRANT ULSH, DCAS 

*Participating via telephone 

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3 

 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Roll Call...................................4 

Discussion of agenda........................6 

Review action items on Eighth Matrix.......17 

Conclude review of Eighth Matrix..........186 

Discuss NIOSH review of QA issues.........190 

Pre-selection dose reconstruction 

14th Set.............................234 

PER 12 case tasking.......................277 

General discussion on DR effort...........288 

Review NIOSH responses on Ninth Matrix....297 

Adjournment...............................391 

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4 

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:08 a.m. 

3 MR. KATZ: This is the Advisory 

4 Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Dose 

5 Reconstruction Subcommittee. I am Ted Katz. I 

6 am the Designated Federal Official of the 

7 Advisory Board. We are going to begin with 

8 roll call, with Board Members in the room 

9 first. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mark Griffon, 

11 Chair of the Subcommittee. 

12 MEMBER CLAWSON: Brad Clawson, Work 

13 Group Member. 

14 MEMBER PRESLEY: Robert Presley, 

15 Work Group Member, non-conflicted. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: Wanda Munn, Board 

17 Member. 

18 MEMBER POSTON: John Poston, Board 

19 Member. 

20 MR. KATZ: And, on the line, Board 

21 Members? 

22 MEMBER RICHARDSON: David 

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5 

1 Richardson, Board Member. 

2 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, Board 

3 Member. 

4 MR. KATZ: We have a full slate 

5 here. NIOSH-ORAU Team in the room? 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Stu Hinnefeld from 

7 NIOSH. 

8 DR. ULSH: Brant Ulsh from NIOSH. 

9 MR. KATZ: NIOSH-ORAU Team on the 

10 line? 

11 MR. SIEBERT: Scott Siebert from the 

12 ORAU Team. 

13 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Scott. SC&A in 

14 the room? 

15 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A. 

16 MR. FARVER: Doug Farver, SC&A. 

17 MR. KATZ: SC&A on the line? 

18 MR. ALVAREZ: Bob Alvarez, SC&A. 

19 MS. BEHLING: Kathy Behling, SC&A. 

20 MR. KATZ: Welcome to both of you. 

21 Federal officials for HHS or contractors to 

22 HHS or other federal agencies on the line? 

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6 

1 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS. 

2 MS. LIN: Jenny Lin, HHS. 

3 DR. AL-NABULSI: Isaf Al-Nabulsi, 

4 DOE. 

5 MS. ADAMS: Nancy Adams, NIOSH 

6 contractor. 

7 MR. KATZ: Welcome to all of you. 

8 And there are no members of the public in the 

9 room. Are there any members of the public on 

10 the line? 

11 Okay then. It is -- Mark, your 

12 agenda. We did not, we did not, except in the 

13 Federal Register. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Then we'll do the 

15 basics. Okay I think we are ready to start. 

16 This is the Subcommittee meeting and if you --

17 I don't know who is on the phone today but 

18 those of us who have been following it, we are 

19 going to continue on with our work on the 

20 matrices. We are on the seventh set of cases. 

21 I think we still have a few hanging out on the 

22 seventh set if I recall. I'm looking to Doug 

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7 

1 and Brant. 

2 DR. ULSH: Yes, I think there are 

3 some open items. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, and then 

5 on the eighth set, the same thing so I think 

6 we are going to continue on the two matrices. 

7 The only other agenda item I really have is 

8 the follow up on the first hundred cases 

9 review report and the status on that with 

10 regard to the quality assurance cases, and 

11 then one other item that -- the response to 

12 Paul Ziemer's questions, I guess, that came 

13 back from the --

14 MR. KATZ: There's another item, 

15 too. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There's another 

17 item, too. I'm looking at Ted, and he's like 

18 no, that's not the one yet. 

19 MR. KATZ: No, because we are 

20 supposed to do a preliminary selection of the 

21 fourteenth set of --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, preliminary 

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8 

1 selection, okay. All right. All right. So we 

2 will do that as well. So I think to start off, 

3 if we can go to the seventh set and then let 

4 me just ask, for process sake, do we have a 

5 preliminary list from NIOSH of the fourteenth? 

6 You gave us some --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: We have -- yes, we 

8 have the preliminary set. We don't have the 

9 additional information that we get from ORAU 

10 sometimes because we were late getting that to 

11 them. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And so that's not 

14 available yet so we don't have the additional 

15 information but we have some 51 or 52 that we 

16 chose essentially the highest PoC numbers, but 

17 we dropped a few if they were -- you know we 

18 didn't get a whole bunch from the same place 

19 as I think --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Or not the 

21 highest PoC numbers but --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the 50s. 

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9 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

2 right. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Fifty, not the 

4 highest, the ones closest, you know, to 50 but 

5 below. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Got you. Right. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And what were the 

8 other --

9 DR. ULSH: Well in general -- I made 

10 the initial selection. In general I stuck with 

11 the ones that were close to 50, but not all of 

12 them are close to 50. Some of them are down in 

13 the 30s. I tried -- some things that I looked 

14 at, I tried not to get too many from one site, 

15 I tried not to get too many over 50 maybe just 

16 a handful because I know that is of less 

17 interest, and I also gave more favor to sites 

18 that did not already have an SEC in place at 

19 the time. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. Okay. 

21 And do we have a printed -- did you send that 

22 to us? 

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10 

1 DR. ULSH: I sent it to you. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: I have a hard copy. 

3 I can make copies of it. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I was 

5 thinking. Maybe at the break or at lunch you 

6 know, we can take this up right after lunch if 

7 that makes sense. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I have a hard 

9 copy. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Make copies -

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I have hard copies, 

12 and -

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. We can 

14 do the selection. All right. Maybe to start we 

15 can start on the seventh set and find the 

16 final ones. I am going to pull up the matrix 

17 while maybe Brant and Doug, maybe you guys can 

18 tell me what the outstanding ones were. 

19 MR. FARVER: I don't believe SC&A 

20 had any actions in the seventh set. None that 

21 I found. 

22 DR. ULSH: That'll make it fast 

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11 

1 because we haven't done -- we don't have 

2 anything new to report on the seventh or 

3 eighth set. However there are still the 

4 initial responses to the ninth set that have 

5 been delivered to the committee about a year 

6 ago that we haven't picked up yet. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

8 DR. ULSH: So I --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I guess 

10 we'll have to work on the ninth set then. It 

11 sort of drives the agenda right? All right. 

12 DR. MAURO: Didn't we make it one 

13 time through the eighth set though? 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we did. We 

15 did. 

16 DR. MAURO: And of course there were 

17 a lot --

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But there were a 

19 lot of follow up actions. 

20 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 

22 wanted to go back to, yes. 

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12 

1 MEMBER MUNN: And we had quite a 

2 number still from the seventh set that -- in 

3 March were still NIOSH actions that were 

4 hanging out --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well actually we 

6 had a meeting in July, and I think we were 

7 down to two or three, if I recall -

8 MR. KATZ: There's practically 

9 nothing left in the seventh set. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. There was 

11 only a couple as I recall. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: It's still out there. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, do we 

14 need to refresh memory on that, or are you 

15 pretty clear on the actions? Should we go 

16 through the seventh and eighth just to make 

17 sure we are all on the same page? 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't have my 

19 notes from the July meeting with me, and that 

20 would be where I captured what was left. I 

21 don't know if anybody has their notes from the 

22 July meeting. 

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13 

1 MR. FARVER: Well, I'm just going by 

2 what -

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean I did send 

4 the updated matrices. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. After the July 

6 meeting? 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

8 MR. FARVER: And there's not that 

9 many. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It should be 

11 labeled like July 23 or something like that, 

12 for some reason that comes to mind. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: Yes correct. 

14 MR. FARVER: Half dozen findings 

15 maybe. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: SC&A agrees on this 

17 one and that one. I'm not sure I caught --

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, if we 

19 need clarification this would be a good time 

20 to do to it. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I don't want 

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14 

1 to -- you know, I don't want to waste the 

2 time, but we are all here, we have got the 

3 time, so -- let me just pull up the seventh 

4 set, now that I've finally got my computer -

5 MEMBER MUNN: Item 2.2 still 

6 outstanding to NIOSH. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, it looks 

8 like even the first one, 121.1, remains NIOSH 

9 action. 121.2 -- 121.3 -- I think part of 

10 these are that they are all related, you know. 

11 It seems to be mostly 121 and 122 

12 that I find, but --

13 MEMBER MUNN: Then there are -- down 

14 135 --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, there are still 

16 some other ones. I mean, do we do --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I'm still 

18 looking for the --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The matrix? 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: The updated matrix. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I was going 

22 to say all the highlighted ones, I thought 

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15 

1 that suffices as far as an action list it 

2 should be able to prompt people. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Our list -- our 

4 notes pick up at 125.9 so --

5 MEMBER MUNN: You had highlighted in 

6 green that time. 

7 MR. FARVER: So you sent out the 

8 matrices a while ago. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: In July. 

11 DR. ULSH: I have 7/19. Is that what 

12 -

13 MR. FARVER: No, you sent it in 

14 either September or October. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: 7/23 -

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, the meeting 

18 was 7/23, yes. I don't remember when I emailed 

19 it, but it wasn't right away, but it was, you 

20 know, a month or --

21 MR. FARVER: September or October it 

22 was --

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16 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, maybe two 

2 months later. It might need some cleaning up 

3 though because I see one here that has yellow 

4 highlighting all throughout and then the 7/23 

5 response says SC&A agrees no further action. 

6 MEMBER MUNN: Further down, you have 

7 a couple more. 

8 MR. KATZ: An SC&A one -

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Was there an 

10 SC&A one? 

11 MR. KATZ: Yes, it was in green. 

12 MR. FARVER: Which one was that? 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, it remains a 

14 NIOSH action. I don't know why it's in green. 

15 There is one -- yes there are, 

16 there is at least one. I've found it. It says 

17 SC&A will review references regarding the use 

18 of in vivo counter. NIOSH will examine --

19 MR. FARVER: Which one is that, 

20 Mark? What number? 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is 137.7. 

22 Well, here's what I suggest. Why don't I go 

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17 

1 through these because instead of just poking 

2 around, why don't we just walk through them 

3 and clarify and make sure everybody is in 

4 agreement, and I can update the highlighting 

5 and send out another revision of this so it's 

6 cleaner. 

7 So starting with the beginning, 

8 121.1. Let's see. I have, remains a NIOSH 

9 action item, but that was on 3/22. I don't 

10 have an update on that from 7/23, which is a 

11 little odd. The same thing on the next couple 

12 of items. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: I have the same thing 

14 but we just -- I think the first few when we 

15 were agreeing that nothing had happened --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, that's 

17 probably why. That's probably why. You didn't 

18 do anything on those cases, so I think they 

19 are still outstanding. We just didn't update 

20 the matrix in that July meeting. 

21 MEMBER MUNN: 122 had --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: In my notes --

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18 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you have the 

2 matrix, Stu? 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I do have. I do have 

4 the one you sent. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So you can 

6 follow along. I mean 3/22, if -- I'm assuming 

7 this still is a NIOSH action item because it 

8 wasn't closed. There's nothing saying that we 

9 closed --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I guess we 

11 didn't bring anything on that. 121 is -- does 

12 anybody have handy what site that finding was? 

13 MR. SIEBERT: It was Aliquippa 

14 Forge. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Aliquippa Forge? 

16 Okay. That might be ours. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So 121.1, .2, and 

18 .3 --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Ours rather than 

20 ORAU's. Sorry, I knew as soon as I said it I 

21 had mumbled it, which I have been told I do. 

22 MEMBER MUNN: Pretty much the same 

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19 

1 is true 122. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, 122 point --

3 so 121.1, .2 and, .3 remain NIOSH action 

4 items. 122.1 --

5 MR. SIEBERT: And 122 is Simonds Saw 

6 & Steel. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: That was Scott 

8 Siebert. 

9 MR. SIEBERT: Sorry about that. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And 122.3, 122.1 

11 and .3 remain NIOSH action items. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: You got all kinds of13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well yes, I think 

14 it's the whole case really, probably, right. 

15 Yes. 122.7 also. Yes. Yes. I think the whole 

16 case on that, the Simonds Saw & Steel, yes. 

17 Okay. 

18 Then I think we go to the one you 

19 were looking at, Stu. 125.9, that's the one 

20 you were talking about Stu, right, earlier? 

21 Yes. And that says remains a NIOSH action 

22 item. 

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20 

1 And now we go down to 127.11. Oh 

2 that is also -- that's closed actually, so I'm 

3 going to take the highlighting off that. I 

4 have SC&A agreed no further action. Do you 

5 agree with that, Doug? 

6 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll take the 

8 highlighting off of that, change that weird 

9 font that --

10 MEMBER MUNN: I thought that was --

11 it was nice, calling to attention you can stop 

12 worrying about it. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

14 MEMBER MUNN: A good color for that. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Next one I have 

16 is 131.4 and that says SC&A agrees no further 

17 action so that will be -- remove the 

18 highlighting on that, too. 

19 MEMBER MUNN: I think you ought to 

20 use that nice puce color. 

21 MR. KATZ: What was the date of our 

22 last meeting? 

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21 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I thought 7/23. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: 7/23. 

3 MR. KATZ: That's what I thought. So 

4 do we need to do something different? Why did 

5 this all fall through? 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: From our standpoint, 

7 it was a matter of getting to things to -- you 

8 know, in the time that we were gone and from 

9 with our contractor, we have been battling 

10 with our contractor in terms of priorities for 

11 a while, and, candidly, things in front of the 

12 Advisory Board that don't relate to an SEC 

13 petition -- when you have priority -

14 DR. MAURO: Mark, certainly let's go 

15 through this, but I have a funny feeling 

16 Simonds Saw is very mature now. I mean you 

17 have --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I think well, it's 

19 just that I think we can get some responses on 

20 there, I don't know --

21 DR. MAURO: Yes, my guess is your 

22 responses are all in your, you know, in 

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22 

1 concept, because when we did the review of 

2 Simonds Saw case subsequent to that you have a 

3 Site Profile review that we are active on 

4 right now, you have an ER I think that's 

5 coming up. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: There's an 

7 Evaluation Report going to be presented to the 

8 Board. 

9 DR. MAURO: Right, so I mean it 

10 would be very --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's a matter of 

12 marrying the two I think --

13 DR. MAURO: Yes. So I mean we --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then we will 

15 have it done, yes. Yes. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: It's just a matter 

17 of getting some responses on here that are 

18 consistent with the Evaluation Report that was 

19 presented. 

20 DR. MAURO: You are probably there 

21 already. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

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23 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, so the 

2 next one I have is 135.1, and that is still an 

3 outstanding NIOSH action, 135.1. We are almost 

4 through this. It will only take a minute. 

5 135.4, next one I have. 

6 MR. FARVER: It's on 134, you said? 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That was 135.4. 

8 MEMBER MUNN: For some reason, that 

9 ended up highlighted. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. Well, 

11 this was -- the next one I have is 137.6, and 

12 we say SC&A agrees and the item is closed, and 

13 then there's this other part that says NIOSH 

14 agrees to a clarification to TIB-60. So this 

15 is sort of a in abeyance kind of thing, isn't 

16 it? You know, from talking Procedures 

17 terminology. So I don't know, I think it was 

18 closed in terms of this case review. That's 

19 what we were saying. Stu, I don't know if you 

20 remember this one. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Let me --

22 MEMBER MUNN: It's being followed in 

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24 

1 Procedures -

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I just don't 

3 want to lose the action, you know. Yes, I 

4 think it's something we have mentioned several 

5 times, but -- well, I'm going to -- I'll just 

6 leave it highlighted in the matrix but we all 

7 understand that, you know --

8 MEMBER MUNN: I believe we have it 

9 on the Procedures matrix. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: I think so. I'll 

12 double check. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll put a note 

14 in there, moved to Procedures. 

15 MR. FARVER: That has to do with 

16 them not including all the solubility classes 

17 in the claimant's file, or any --

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That was part of 

19 it, yes, the show all work concept and that 

20 was --

21 MR. FARVER: And I think we're going 

22 to add something to the procedure --

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This particular 

2 one, yes. 

3 MR. FARVER: To clarify that it 

4 should be added. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: No, no, we need to 

6 make sure that we get that action to ORAU - on 

7 the action to revise that procedure. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, so really, 

9 I'm going to delete it up -

10 MR. HINNEFELD: We transferred --

11 that's -

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: So we need to make 

14 sure that ORAU gets that action. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Do you want 

16 me to leave this highlighted in the matrix, 

17 Stu? 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Fine by me, I mean -

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, I'll just 

20 leave it highlighted. Yes. It says now that 

21 transferred but you guys have to do the follow 

22 up. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I mean that's 

2 going to fall to us. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

4 right. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: And we are going to 

6 show them the procedures and -- you'll have 

7 the same -- we're saying, okay, now what about 

8 -- what's this one. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right. 

10 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. I'll double check 

11 it to make sure we had it in abeyance. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 137.7 I have an 

13 action for SC&A and NIOSH on this. That was 

14 one I just mentioned before. 

15 MR. FARVER: And then if at some 

16 point today either Stu or Brant he can tell me 

17 where that reference is located, where it's 

18 located on the -- apparently it's located 

19 somewhere. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, a reference to 

21 --

22 MR. FARVER: It's the Y-12 mobile in 

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1 vivo counter. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Scott? You are 

3 listening in, right? 

4 MR. SIEBERT: I am. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Are you following 

6 along on the findings and you can see where --

7 we are talking about a reference to the mobile 

8 counter on this finding? 

9 MR. SIEBERT: At 137.7? 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

11 MR. FARVER: Yes, you gave the 

12 reference number I believe at the last meeting 

13 but I did not know where that is located. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, if you go 

15 with the Site Research Database you can search 

16 --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I bet if you go to 

18 Paducah, if you've got that reference ID, if 

19 you go to Paducah, I bet you'll find it. 

20 Paducah. 

21 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Because I bet you'll 

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1 find it at Paducah; I bet you'll find it at 

2 Fernald. 

3 MR. FARVER: What -- where is that 

4 located, I mean --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I can show you 

6 on a break but you go to site research on 

7 staff tool. 

8 MR. FARVER: If you just show me at 

9 a break --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

11 MR. FARVER: We will work that out. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then the next 

13 one, 137.8. This is transferred to Procedures 

14 but I'll leave it as highlighted because --

15 MEMBER MUNN: Correct, and I'll 

16 double check it. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, anything we 

18 transfer to Procedures you want to make sure 

19 we get to the database. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Part of TIB-17, 

21 it says, yes. 

22 MEMBER MUNN: It'll be on our 

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1 database. I'll double check it. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and we'll have 

3 to write it. You are just going to write this 

4 finding into whatever procedure is going to 

5 change, and it'll be an imported status, and 

6 we can talk about it later, but there's a way 

7 to put it in there so we don't -- and then we 

8 also have to check to make sure this document 

9 is in front of the Procedures Work Group, 

10 otherwise it -- like if it's closed and it's 

11 not being -- by Procedures Work Group then it 

12 just disappears. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it is 

14 according to Wanda, right. 

15 MEMBER MUNN: I think it is. 

16 DR. MAURO: Seventeen, that's the 

17 non-penetrating radiation procedure? 

18 MEMBER MUNN: I never remember which 

19 is which. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Seventeen, I believe 

21 is non-penetrating. 

22 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think you're 

2 right because it's technetium. And is there 

3 any more? These red ones here. They shouldn't 

4 be red. 

5 MR. FARVER: Did you say they are 

6 not supposed to be red or --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think --

8 yes, it was just there is no reason for them 

9 to be, except maybe I was highlighting that 

10 they are all transferred to Procedures so --

11 MEMBER MUNN: Well I think, I think 

12 one of the early things that we did, we put 

13 that particular day's process --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: In red, yes --

15 MEMBER MUNN: The responses we had 

16 in red that day. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Maybe, yes. That 

18 could be why. Yes. 

19 MEMBER MUNN: Just to show us that 

20 it was a -

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right. 

22 Okay. So that's it. That's all I have. Want to 

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31 

1 do the same thing with the eighth set and then 

2 we can get on to the new stuff? Okay. Probably 

3 worthwhile. And it's labeled the same way, 

4 Eighth Matrix, July 23, the end of it. 

5 Everybody have that document? 

6 Let's see if I did better with my 

7 highlighting. Apparently not. Is 149.1 -- it 

8 says no effect on this case. NIOSH to review 

9 SC&A's analysis, the badge data. No effect on 

10 this case since the case was compensable so do 

11 we say it was closed? I'm not -

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well -

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That might -

14 MR. HINNEFELD: We didn't capture it 

15 on our notes. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: We didn't capture 

18 our notes, 149.1 we did not capture it as an 

19 action item so I don't know if that means it's 

20 closed or not. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Doug, do you have 

22 that on your notes? 

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1 MR. FARVER: I thought it was closed 

2 but --

3 MEMBER MUNN: What number are we 

4 looking at? 

5 MR. FARVER: 149.1. 

6 MEMBER MUNN: .1? 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I mean we 

8 say no affect on the case but I don't know if 

9 we really resolved the differences that you 

10 were having, analysis of badge data as 

11 compared to --

12 MR. FARVER: I don't know that we 

13 have. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: This is that 

15 statistical one. 

16 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: No wonder I keep 

18 blocking it out. Okay we should take this one 

19 down. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it is 

21 still an open item, yes. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, because it's 

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33 

1 not so clear to me that this issue would 

2 affect only this claim, as I recall. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. In fact it 

4 doesn't affect this claim because it's --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well this one is 

6 compensable so it is not going to change this 

7 one, but there are other claims that worked in 

8 accordance with this technique that might be 

9 affected. 

10 DR. MAURO: You have a statistical 

11 one that goes to our coworker models --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. It's the one 

13 that Chmelynski wrote --

14 DR. MAURO: Harry's comments on --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Harry Chmelynski 

16 wrote -- yes. 

17 DR. MAURO: So this is more -- I 

18 mean if it's what I'm thinking it is, this is 

19 more procedural than it is for this case --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

21 DR. MAURO: Or for this site. I 

22 think it's cross-cutting. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I'm not so sure 

2 this technique was used other places. It 

3 depends on what kind of a data set you get, so 

4 I am not sure that the technique was used 

5 other places that would be -- if it was used 

6 other places --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well it only goes 

8 to Procedures if it is proceduralized. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe it was. 

10 I'm not -- we'll have to go check but we have 

11 got some action on this. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Yes. Okay. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And it just has to 

14 be pulled out and it's probably -- this will 

15 be one of those resource-constrained findings, 

16 has been and will be because this is going to 

17 take a statistician on our side and we don't 

18 have very many of those either, so yes. 

19 DR. ULSH: I've got it down as a 

20 NIOSH action item. The question is, it's not 

21 an issue for this claim necessarily but does 

22 it affect other claims? 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, I'll need a 

2 little more than that to remember this. It 

3 relates to the statistics of coworker method 

4 on this claim. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And this carries 

6 through the first four or so, right? 

7 DR. ULSH: First four. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: All the findings on 

9 that? I don't recall --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think looking 

11 down --

12 MR. FARVER: It takes into account 

13 several of them, I'm not sure about --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh well, the second 

15 one is a different finding. It has to do with, 

16 apparently --

17 DR. ULSH: Is the 149.2 the same 

18 thing? 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, maybe not, 

20 maybe not. We should take a look at it. To me 

21 --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not -- yes --

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36 

1 you may be right, that's a different issue, 

2 isn't it? 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Yes, this is a 

4 matter of -- if you let the finding the 

5 default values result in a substantial 

6 overestimate to this employee and it has to do 

7 with, I think, a one size fits all coworker 

8 model --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Right. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: As opposed to a 

11 tiered coworker model and we've discussed that 

12 in other venues and I believe that we are of 

13 the opinion that, if you start tiering them, 

14 the model, you know, how many tiers are you 

15 going to build? I mean, it's going to fall 

16 apart eventually because you can always find a 

17 subset of categories you've chosen and try to 

18 tier it again. And so I think that is where we 

19 have stood on this and again it won't affect 

20 this claim and it's kind of the standard 

21 practice, is to use a coworker model and then 

22 select the percentile points depending upon 

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37 

1 the job description. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You usually go 

3 with like three tiers, right? You usually go 

4 with 50th, 95th or environmental. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm not sure if 

6 we've anything to do on --

7 DR. MAURO: If all it is, is the 

8 selection of the 95th percentile when our 

9 judgment is -- this might not have been the 

10 nurse --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

12 DR. MAURO: Is this the nurse? 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

14 DR. MAURO: Oh, I'll tell you, I 

15 know what this is. There was a person that 

16 worked at this facility, I forget, one of the 

17 AWEs who was a nurse and did not work on the 

18 operating floor, apparently, or not very much, 

19 and the assignment that she received for a 

20 dose was at the upper end, she ended up being 

21 exposed and I believe it was a skin cancer -

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't recall. 

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1 DR. MAURO: But in any event, in 

2 this -- I think our only concern was, I don't 

3 know if we had so much of a problem with the 

4 coworker model, it was more that whey would 

5 you assign this person such a high dose and 

6 compensate. You know that's of course a 

7 judgment. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

9 DR. MAURO: If that's the one I'm 

10 thinking --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: If that, I mean, we 

12 are kind damned if we do and damned if we 

13 don't. 

14 DR. MAURO: I know. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: If we gave a nurse a 

16 lower one, she would say I was always 

17 responding to injuries out there, I would work 

18 -- I would go to visit the employees in the 

19 workplace as part of my job, you know, I 

20 didn't just sit in the dispensary all day. 

21 DR. ULSH: So, this is one where the 

22 95th -

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1 DR. MAURO: I'm speculating based on 

2 the conversation, looking at the case, and I 

3 recall a case like that, where you really 

4 assigned a high dose. And the only reason I 

5 bring something like that up is if it was a 

6 person that on every -- on first blush anyway, 

7 very little -- that's the reason you created 

8 the other categories, just for a person like 

9 this --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

11 DR. MAURO: And you didn't use it. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, Brant, you 

13 should check and see how this one would have 

14 worked and kind of what the issues are here. I 

15 would think a nurse, even if she spent some 

16 time in the facility, would get a 50th percent 

17 --

18 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Maybe she got that. 

20 I don't know. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It sounds like 

22 she got a 90th -- but, well -

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1 DR. MAURO: Any way to tell if this 

2 was an AWE from looking at it? 

3 MR. FARVER: Oh, it was an AWE. 

4 DR. MAURO: It was an AWE. I just 

5 don't want to --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

7 DR. ULSH: I've got it as an action 

8 item for us, check to see whether the 95th 

9 should have been assigned or whether --

10 DR. MAURO: And it's not the Harry 

11 issue, then. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: No, one is. 

13 DR. MAURO: Oh, one was. I'm sorry. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: The first one --

15 number three is sort of the same. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Number two is the 

17 one we just discussed, right? 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So that's the 

20 action you had, check on the 95th versus 50th , 

21 right? These are different. I'm sorry, I was 

22 trying to bundle them all in together but 

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1 they're slightly different issues. 

2 DR. ULSH: It looks like 149.3, is 

3 that the same as number one? 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Same as one, has to 

5 be our response, refers to number one so I 

6 would say it is the same as one. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it is, 

8 yes. Okay. What about 149.4? 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, that one looks 

10 to me like a global one having to do with 

11 localized data sources and it's not going to 

12 affect this claim I think maybe keeping it in 

13 a global. We had a conversation Friday about 

14 getting these global ones, we've got to put 

15 some urgency on settling global issues, so to 

16 me this looks like that. 

17 MR. FARVER: This is the shallow 

18 dose? 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Shallow dose from 

20 localized sources. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

22 DR. MAURO: And it also goes to 

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42 

1 OTIB-17, which is where it first came up, five 

2 years ago. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

4 DR. ULSH: So I've got it remains a 

5 NIOSH action item. Do you want me to put 

6 something --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well I don't know 

8 that it is for claim. I think it's a global 

9 issue. I think it's a global issue. It --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Does it go to 

11 Procedures or is it --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How do you, how 

14 do we --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: To me -- I think we 

16 had a conversation about this on Procedures 

17 and we felt like global issues usually should 

18 rightfully go to Procedures because Procedures 

19 deals with documents that theoretically affect 

20 more than one claim and so we had that 

21 discussion once and I think the global issues 

22 was going to go there. I almost think it needs 

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43 

1 its own little piece of the database. But you 

2 know Procedures could be -- it could be 

3 managed just like the Procedures, you know, 

4 the same people, the same rights and all that 

5 stuff. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But for the sake 

7 of my matrix here, I'm going to say 

8 transferred to Procedures Work Group. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay with us, we'll 

10 keep track of it. 

11 MR. KATZ: So that would be a good 

12 idea, to have a section of the database that's 

13 global issues that are not necessarily tied to 

14 a document. 

15 MEMBER MUNN: Are we still talking 

16 about 17? 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it refers 

18 to TIB-17 still, yes. This is 149.4 finding, 

19 yes. 

20 MEMBER MUNN: And my apologies, I 

21 made a valiant effort to bring up the database 

22 to look to see what it says is in Procedures 

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1 and unfortunately, I am not communicating with 

2 Citrix or vice versa -- properly. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Put a question mark. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How about 149.5? 

5 MEMBER CLAWSON: That's part of the 

6 95 percentile issue too --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I see 

8 response 149.2. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: So the next two are 

10 --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Yes. Okay. 

12 MR. KATZ: While they are mulling 

13 through things, Bob, are you on the line 

14 still? 

15 MR. ALVAREZ: Yes, I am. 

16 MR. KATZ: Are you awaiting a 

17 particular agenda item? 

18 MR. ALVAREZ: No, no. I was just 

19 listening in. I'm not -- I'm actually 

20 supposed to participate tomorrow but I had my 

21 times screwed up so I was just listening in. 

22 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

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1 MR. ALVAREZ: So anyway, I'm about 

2 to hang up in fact.. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Too exciting for 

4 you? 

5 MR. KATZ: Bye bye Bob. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Someone else just 

7 identified herself. 

8 MR. KATZ: Yes someone else -- was 

9 someone else trying to speak to us? 

10 (No response.) 

11 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 150.1 

13 is what I'm up to now. Scott, do you have 

14 this one down? 

15 MR. SIEBERT: This is a Simonds Saw 

16 & Steel. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. It seemed 

18 like an AWE. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it could be 

20 like, we'll have some --

21 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Right. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Based on where we 

2 are now on research. We should be able to 

3 fill this in. There's one on the last one too. 

4 You want to make a note we've got something to 

5 do on it, though, which is provide a response 

6 in light of the Simonds ER. 

7 MEMBER MUNN: One more time, which 

8 item is this? We're still on 51. 

9 DR. ULSH: No, no. 150.1 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: 150.1, yes. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: Have you already gone 

12 two steps? No. And what we are saying today 

13 is? 

14 DR. ULSH: NIOSH needs to provide a 

15 response in light of the Simonds Evaluation 

16 Report. 

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, this could be -- I 

18 think it's very timely. You definitely 

19 wouldn't want some of these issues that are 

20 sort of floating to emerge while you are in 

21 the middle of the ER process. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, ER is done 

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1 later. The main thing we are presenting on ER 

2 is going to -- you can position that with --

3 DR. MAURO: Yes. You'd like to be in 

4 a position to say yes, our ER deals with this. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The next one I 

6 have, 150.2, I have being shifted to the 

7 Procedures. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But it --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: You need to make 

11 sure that it gets caught there too. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And this is 

13 ingestion, so this sounds like a global issue 

14 kind of thing, right? 

15 DR. MAURO: Ingestion is a global 

16 issue with OTIB-9 and we have gone a long way 

17 to resolve that. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's OTIB-9, 

19 yes, so we'll follow it in Procedures, right. 

20 DR. ULSH: But that's still a NIOSH 

21 action item? 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 151.1 

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: This gets back to 

3 the one that we had, surface contamination. 

4 DR. ULSH: Is that 149.4, is that 

5 where you were referring to, the earlier issue 

6 about --

7 MEMBER MUNN: Is that still the same 

8 issue as -- the same response in 150.1? 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not sure. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: We would have to 

11 look at -- no it's not possible to know for 

12 sure because we would have to look at what was 

13 the basis for the initial starting level in 

14 each of the two situations, so --

15 MEMBER MUNN: So it's not covered in 

16 the previous one --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: No. I don't think 

18 so. 

19 MEMBER CLAWSON: This one calls out 

20 that SC&A suggest using the --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, the specific 

22 reference, yes. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, the add 

2 later part. 

3 DR. MAURO: We've received -- a lot 

4 of that has been resolved, in several places. 

5 The Adley report has to do with deposition, 

6 accumulation of services and we resolved that, 

7 the ingestion part of it. You know, once you 

8 have got it on the surface and now we are 

9 comfortable with the way you model it. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's just tying 

11 it together. Where did that come up in -- was 

12 it in 6000 Work Group? 

13 DR. MAURO: 6000. Absolutely, yes. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll get it from 

15 the 6000 --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Check on the 

17 6000. 

18 DR. MAURO: They are all starting to 

19 get interconnected. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, right, yes, a 

21 lot of these were done before 6000 was out 

22 there, so yes. 

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1 DR. ULSH: Tied to a 6000 Work 

2 Group? 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

4 DR. MAURO: Which has been resolved, 

5 which is interesting. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We just need to get 

7 it on here. 

8 DR. ULSH: Yes. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, if it's been 

10 resolved there, we just need to get the 

11 resolution on here. We provide administration 

12 support for the Advisory Board, that's our 

13 action. 

14 DR. ULSH: All right, so we change 

15 the matrix? Is that what you are saying? 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: What we'll do is we 

17 always add things to the matrix. 

18 DR. ULSH: All right. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: We always add things 

20 to the matrix, and then the only thing we 

21 don't change is status. 

22 DR. ULSH: Okay. 

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1 MR. FARVER: In our original report 

2 on that, related to that finding, it says, 

3 during the issue's closeout process related to 

4 Bethlehem Steel Site Profile review, NIOSH 

5 agreed to revise the methodology for deriving 

6 surface contamination. Since the claimant was 

7 denied compensation, NIOSH considered revising 

8 this DR with respect to the matter. 

9 In other words what we are saying 

10 is the surface contamination issue has been 

11 resolved in general but you may want to go 

12 back and look at it for this case. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes, this is a 

14 little different, yes. Yes. So don't lose 

15 sight of the end of this case on that, yes. 

16 MEMBER CLAWSON: Well, this is the 

17 question that I brought up earlier, when we 

18 are going through and we are spot checking 

19 these, and we see an issue like this, and it 

20 may affect this case but how do we make sure 

21 that it checks other cases because there might 

22 be numerous ones that this would affect. It's 

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1 my understanding this is why we are doing 

2 these reviews and stuff like this, to assure 

3 that we are doing it right and if we have got 

4 a problem like this that is say site-wide or 

5 whatever, that we are going back and checking 

6 those. How do we --

7 DR. ULSH: Well, it seems -- well 

8 I'm going to take a shot Brad, it seems to me 

9 that when we change a document like a TBD or a 

10 TIB, isn't it our normal practice to do a PER 

11 to see which cases that might affect and go 

12 back and --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what would 

14 happen. 

15 DR. MAURO: I've seen that on Site 

16 Profiles. I haven't seen it on Procedures, you 

17 know, and the PER -- had there been any -- had 

18 there been procedures changes, generic, that 

19 triggered PERs? I'm not sure. There may have 

20 been. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the lymphoma 

22 one was not a Site Profile one. 

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1 DR. MAURO: Yes you're absolutely 

2 right. 

3 DR. ULSH: And this is the -- if I 

4 understand correctly, this came up in the TBD5 6000 Work Group, right? So if that were to 

6 change, then --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It came up 

8 probably before that but I think it was 

9 handled in the TBD-6000. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: What we -- yes, what 

11 we need, what we need to find out, make sure 

12 we are doing here is you see some of these 

13 would have been done before TBD-6000 was done, 

14 so if in fact there is a change to these 

15 earlier techniques from TBD-6000 and the 

16 resolutions of TBD-6000 then we need to go 

17 back and see which of these -- which of these 

18 things done before TBD-6000, and there were a 

19 lot of individual Site Profiles written that 

20 were before TBD-6000, and we need to evaluate 

21 the change on those. Now we pretty much have 

22 a resolution on 6000, what does that change in 

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1 all these earlier approaches and so we can go 

2 back and change what needs to be changed in 

3 those earlier approaches. 

4 So this is beyond the scope of our 

5 activities here. This is our scope, our 

6 programmatic scope back there in the office, 

7 is that we need to make sure that, though, we 

8 capture the TBD-6000 approach in AWEs or 

9 relevant sites that were done prior to the 

10 TBD-6000 being completed. 

11 MEMBER CLAWSON: And I agree with 

12 you fully on that Stu, but what I was also 

13 going to ask Wanda, is that part of the TBD 

14 when we -- I'm not a part of that Procedures 

15 group. Is that something that, when we change 

16 this or we look in that, that it gets changed 

17 back? You know, if you have got numerous cases 

18 out there that were done before this TBD-6000 

19 was put in, are we -- is there anything that 

20 we check out or is that more --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: What the Procedures 

22 Subcommittee does is it evaluates PERs. 

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1 MEMBER MUNN: It triggers NIOSH to 

2 do a PER. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: And they also 

4 evaluate PERs, not only the document, but they 

5 look at claims that were reworked under the 

6 PER or at least they are starting to. So yes, 

7 there is a loop back on that. 

8 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay. I just -- you 

9 know, we look at this and I just never see the 

10 loop back on so many of these and I -- it kind 

11 of seems like to me personally that it is kind 

12 of unfinished, because we don't see -- and I'm 

13 not saying that you are not doing it, it's 

14 just as a Work Group here we don't see that 

15 loop back. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: Probably as a general 

17 rule of thumb, checking what the status of the 

18 PER is sometimes answers the question. 

19 MR. KATZ: So Brad, you'll actually 

20 see the loop now because the Dose 

21 Reconstruction Subcommittee will do the 

22 selecting of the cases after they evaluate in 

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1 Procedures the PER. 

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right. 

3 MR. KATZ: The last step of that 

4 process is to select a set of dose 

5 reconstructions to validate it being 

6 implemented --

7 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay, 

8 MR. KATZ: And this Subcommittee 

9 will do the selection of those cases. 

10 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay, that -- I 

11 think I brought this up earlier, about a year 

12 or two ago, yes, that's what I was trying to 

13 get. 

14 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, it took us a 

15 while to decide exactly how that group was 

16 going to work. I think we've got it. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 151.2 is back to 

18 the ingestion model, that action stays the 

19 same is going to the Procedures Subcommittee, 

20 TIB-9. 

21 DR. ULSH: So that's the same as 

22 finding 150.2, is that what you are saying? 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Same outcome, I 

2 think. 

3 DR. ULSH: Okay, so what I had for 

4 150.2 is that it was transferred to the 

5 Procedures Subcommittee. It's a global issue 

6 related to ingestion and that relates to OTIB7 9. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

9 DR. ULSH: And that remains a NIOSH 

10 action item. Is that what you want --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think the only 

12 difference in this one, the potential effect 

13 on this case is unclear still, right Doug? 

14 This is a less than 50 percentile one, right? 

15 So we may have to still consider --so, we 

16 should also keep that in the loop. 

17 MEMBER MUNN: Savannah River Site. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it's 

19 closed other than that action is going to the 

20 Savannah River Site, right? 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe so. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Doug, you --

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1 MR. FARVER: Yes, correct. 

2 DR. ULSH: 151.2. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: 152.1. 

4 DR. ULSH: And if what I see in the 

5 yellow action item is NIOSH will follow up on 

6 this case --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I think you 

8 did that on July 23, so I took that out of 

9 there. I believe, yes. 

10 DR. ULSH: So there's no action item 

11 for NIOSH then? 

12 DR. MAURO: I just had a thought. We 

13 are at a level of maturity in the process now 

14 where I think that all of the findings we 

15 have, with the hundreds if not before, can 

16 fall into one of two groups: one where there 

17 are quality issues, whereby they were supposed 

18 to follow a certain procedure, do this, that 

19 or the other thing according to procedure and 

20 it wasn't done and it has to be fixed, and 

21 that's specific to that case, because that 

22 case, that was something that was done that 

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1 shouldn't have been done that way, and 

2 everything else is transferred. 

3 You see why I am saying that? 

4 Because everything else would be oh, we don't 

5 really care for the way you did this here, not 

6 because you did something wrong, it's because 

7 we don't like the Site Profile, we don't like 

8 OTIB-9. It all -

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If anything goes 

10 to Procedures it's --

11 DR. MAURO: So in a funny sort of 

12 way --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right. 

14 DR. MAURO: I just had an idea that 

15 was one that might very well streamline this 

16 process. What I mean by that, is if somehow we 

17 can -- every single finding that we make, 

18 maybe this goes to us now, we could bin it, 

19 say this is something that is specific to this 

20 site because it is a -- I'll call it a quality 

21 issue for want of a better term -- because it 

22 applies to this case, because it wasn't 

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1 implemented the way you say you were going to 

2 implement it, and everything else goes some 

3 place else, right? Is there anything else? 

4 MR. KATZ: Well, no, I mean I agree 

5 with your binning except that I think this 

6 Subcommittee needs to decide whether that goes 

7 somewhere else or whether they agree --

8 whether they agree or not, that that -

9 DR. MAURO: We can actually suggest 

10 it, where the home of this issue -- every 

11 issue that we raise, we could give it a home, 

12 a suggested home, and if it leaves here and 

13 you folks get to it, I can see you buzzing 

14 right through these things -- you know, 

15 listen, this is --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The only piece 

17 you are missing is the loop back on the 

18 effectiveness of the overall, you know, NIOSH 

19 to get the right answers, I mean -- get the 

20 quality piece in but if you are -- referring 

21 it for resolution it is fine but then it has 

22 to somehow come back to say that we can look 

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1 at each individual case and see --

2 DR. MAURO: Oh yes -

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Once that 

4 disagreement was resolved, the outcome --

5 DR. MAURO: Oh yes, the loop is 

6 still there. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

8 right. 

9 MR. KATZ: But I think this 

10 Subcommittee has a first step, to decide that 

11 that is an issue that needs further resolution 

12 elsewhere, because you may review SC&A's 

13 review and say we don't agree with you --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes, yes. 

15 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Preliminary 

17 binning it, so to speak, and then we can 

18 decide, decide here and move it. Yes. 

19 MR. KATZ: This Subcommittee --

20 MEMBER MUNN: Three of you are 

21 talking at the same time. I can't imagine 

22 what is going into the transcription. 

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1 MR. KATZ: Just every other word 

2 goes into it. 

3 MEMBER PRESLEY: Who's going to keep 

4 up with this? 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's got to 

6 be tracked on here. 

7 MEMBER MUNN: It's got to be tracked 

8 here, yes. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's got to be 

10 tracked here. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: From the 30,000 foot 

12 view, I think John is absolutely right, but in 

13 terms of what that still means for us in terms 

14 of tracking, it would -- we could approach it 

15 slightly differently but we would still have 

16 to do this one by one tracking, I think. 

17 MR. FARVER: Well there's a finding 

18 coming up that doesn't exactly fit in. It has 

19 to do with -- on Savannah River reports, their 

20 external dose also has tritium in it, the and 

21 you'll subtract out the tritium, but the one 

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1 documented. Now, that's not really a quality 

2 issue -

3 DR. MAURO: Yes, where do you put 

4 that? 

5 MR. FARVER: It's not really give it 

6 to another Subcommittee, it's something that 

7 we have to discussed here and does that 

8 documentation need to be included somewhere. 

9 MR. KATZ: Mike, were you trying to 

10 say something? 

11 MEMBER RICHARDSON: This is David 

12 Richardson. 

13 MR. KATZ: Oh, David. 

14 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, I think is 

15 a really -- it's, the point that John has 

16 raised sounds very much to me like the point 

17 that Brad raised and I was wondering, as a 

18 suggestion, if we would have a period of time, 

19 at the end of the meeting to kind of step back 

20 and look at the process. That would be useful 

21 for me, because I have had the same feeling 

22 about kind of stepping back and looking at 

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64 

1 what -- what are the objectives of this what I 

2 would call Program Evaluation, how is it being 

3 used and do we want to think about how to 

4 design it in order to address issues like 

5 reproducibility and quality, and then 

6 procedural issues, and those seem to be the 

7 classes that John, that you were -- some of 

8 them need to be referred to procedural issues 

9 and other ones are specific to the program and 

10 implementation. 

11 So, if we could talk about that at 

12 some point, it doesn't have to be in the 

13 middle of -- we are kind of in the middle of, 

14 right here, this eighth matrix, so maybe it's 

15 worthwhile to wrap this up. 

16 But I think that's a -- for me that 

17 would be a useful discussion to have and help 

18 get me up to speed. Because there's a lot of -

19 - a lot of this is very much looking at the 

20 specific trees and not looking at the forest 

21 and it seems like this is a bigger issue being 

22 raised. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

2 right. I agree with that. Our first attempt to 

3 look at the forest was the first 100 cases 

4 report which we are still trying to bring to a 

5 close, but yes, we can discuss that a little 

6 later in the meeting if that's all right 

7 David. 

8 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Right. 

9 MEMBER MUNN: But, of course the 

10 real charter of the Dose Reconstruction 

11 Subcommittee is to look at the trees, okay? 

12 That's what we are here for, no? 

13 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

14 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I think it is --

15 okay, I mean we can go back to this, but it's 

16 a question of how this process is being used, 

17 for example by NIOSH in their 10-year Program 

18 Evaluation and are we -- can we think about 

19 tweaking the way we are doing things that 

20 would be helpful for the users of this 

21 evaluation. That would be how I would put 

22 this. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

2 MEMBER MUNN: Always a good idea. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, so 

4 where are we at? 152.2? 

5 DR. ULSH: Well, I think 152.1, I 

6 had no NIOSH action on that one. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Right. 

8 Right. 

9 DR. ULSH: That's all I had. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That stands as 

11 closed, yes. 152.2 is nothing. I guess the 

12 next one I have is 152.4. 

13 MR. FARVER: This was the finding I 

14 mentioned. It really doesn't fit into the --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes. Yes. 

16 MR. FARVER: Quality or Work Group 

17 category. 

18 DR. MAURO: Is this a transparency 

19 issue, would you call it, in other words --

20 you can't figure out what's being done? 

21 MEMBER CLAWSON: I thought this kind 

22 of like -- I don't know if this was showing 

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1 their works when --

2 DR. MAURO: Showing transparency. 

3 MR. FARVER: Documenting it 

4 somewhere that this is how you're going to do 

5 it and this is how you do it. 

6 DR. MAURO: I have to say that one 

7 of the things that has happened more recently, 

8 at least for me, is the workbooks that you had 

9 -- I mean it's not in the DR report. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

11 DR. MAURO: But when you get into 

12 the workbook, which is not an easy thing to do 

13 by the way, when you get into the workbook, we 

14 do have people that get very good at that; we 

15 are now able to tease that out a little better 

16 because the workbooks are there, and I think 

17 you are going toward that. In other words we 

18 have to go dive into the workbook and sort of 

19 tease it out and see what they did, or are you 

20 saying something different? 

21 MR. FARVER: Well, I'm saying that 

22 it's not in the documentation that this is how 

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1 they are going to do it. A lot of times in the 

2 workbook, what they are doing is just 

3 basically what they said they were going to do 

4 in the TBD. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: In this case --

6 MR. FARVER: In this case, they do 

7 something in the workbook, but they don't 

8 describe it in the TBD, saying this is how 

9 they are going to do it. 

10 DR. MAURO: Is it --

11 MR. FARVER: So you can't tell if 

12 it's correct or not. 

13 DR. MAURO: Okay, is it -- I'm sorry 

14 -- but it is an interpretation? In other 

15 words, the workbook is basically a machine 

16 that implements some procedure in some very 

17 systematic way --

18 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

19 DR. MAURO: Sometimes very complex. 

20 You are saying it goes beyond that, where 

21 there is a certain interpretation that is 

22 being applied? 

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1 MR. FARVER: No, it's doing 

2 calculations that are not in the 

3 documentation. 

4 DR. MAURO: Documentation, but when 

5 you say documentation, you're saying not in 

6 the workbook --

7 MR. FARVER: TBD. 

8 DR. MAURO: not in the, not in the -

9 - oh, okay. It's not in the TBD either. 

10 MR. FARVER: Right. 

11 DR. MAURO: It's only in the 

12 workbook. 

13 MR. FARVER: The TBD doesn't talk 

14 about subtracting --

15 DR. MAURO: Ahh. 

16 MR. FARVER: The tritium doses --

17 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

18 MR. FARVER: From the external 

19 doses. 

20 DR. MAURO: This is an important --

21 yes, you see this is an important category. 

22 MR. FARVER: So it's not that it's 

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1 wrong necessarily, it says show your work type 

2 of thing. 

3 DR. MAURO: It's almost a supplement 

4 to a TBD. It happens to find its way into a 

5 workbook, this is how we are applying it here. 

6 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

7 DR. MAURO: Got you. 

8 MEMBER MUNN: But instead of showing 

9 your work, show why you are doing this work 

10 really. 

11 MR. FARVER: Yes, I mean if you are 

12 --

13 MEMBER CLAWSON: Well, I think what 

14 this -- if I can, Doug, I think where a lot of 

15 this came up numerous times is you guys have 

16 gone back and tried to reconstruct what was 

17 done with the blind ones, and we can't even 

18 come close to them because there's been things 

19 that have been done that aren't in the works 

20 for --

21 MR. FARVER: In the TBD -

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: and everything else 

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1 like that --

2 MR. FARVER: Procedures -

3 MEMBER CLAWSON: And the whole thing 

4 is, if you're going to do something like this, 

5 it should be able to be reconstructed very 

6 simply and done basically showing your work, 

7 just like in school, you can have a deal here 

8 and the answer but I want to see how you got 

9 that answer. 

10 MR. FARVER: It's hard to tell if 

11 it's correct if you don't have something 

12 supporting it. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: If you don't have the 

14 structure to begin with, yes. 

15 MR. FARVER: This is why we do it 

16 this way. 

17 DR. MAURO: If anything, it is when 

18 that's done, maybe this is the hard -- this is 

19 always going to happen. You owe it to every 

20 dose reconstruction, it's probably going to 

21 run into the situation of what do I do now, 

22 and you can't prescribe everything, and when, 

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1 I guess -- and you would never want to take a 

2 certain amount of judgment away from a person 

3 doing the job who is a professional at it. 

4 Just tell us your story. Tell us what you did. 

5 MR. FARVER: This is a specific case 

6 with Savannah River records, the way they 

7 write up their records, they include their 

8 tritium on their external dosimetry program 

9 and that's how they monitor for tritium. 

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, yes, that's how 

11 they build it, yes. 

12 MR. FARVER: And so therefore they 

13 subtract out tritium from their external dose 

14 --

15 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

16 MR. FARVER: and report it as 

17 tritium dose. All we are saying in this 

18 finding is, put that in the TBD somewhere 

19 saying this is how you want to --

20 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

21 MR. KATZ: In addition to the TBD -

22 DR. ULSH: So this remains a NIOSH 

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1 action? 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

3 MR. SIEBERT: And this is Scott 

4 Siebert. Just to let you know, we do have that 

5 on our plate to put it in the next version of 

6 the Savannah River technical basis document. 

7 I'm looking at a draft right now and it's 

8 being addressed. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, the next 

10 one is the 152.6. Is that correct? Okay. 

11 152.6. 

12 MEMBER CLAWSON: I've got a question 

13 for Stu. You know I was just listening to what 

14 Scott said and I just -- you've got the 

15 changes coming out to that procedure so make 

16 this look back and so forth, like that, the 

17 next time that we come to this meeting or 

18 whatever else like that, this would be the 

19 conclusion of this, the profile is changed or 

20 whatever, correct? 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: And the time. Okay. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 152.6. Is 

2 this the chooser approach versus the TIB-54? 

3 Is it two different approaches for the --

4 isn't that right? 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The chooser 

7 approach was the earlier approach, right? 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So yes, I 

10 guess we are asking for a comparison of the 

11 older method with the newer method to see if 

12 it is still as conservative, right or 

13 whatever. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I`m not sure 

16 what, but it sounds like this potentially had 

17 an effect on this case too, so I think it's a 

18 case-specific, you know, one as well. Yes. So 

19 that remains a NIOSH action item. 

20 Okay 153.1. Some of these -- no I 

21 think this one is an example that NIOSH really 

22 hadn't done any work on this, so it remains a 

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1 NIOSH action item and I'm not going to add to 

2 it. The next two are that way, 153.2 as well. 

3 153.6 was an SC&A action. Did you 

4 have that one Doug? 

5 MR. FARVER: No. 

6 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes. Sorry 

8 about that. Got to go on to my next page. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: So it's our action. 

10 MEMBER MUNN: You know if the PER is 

11 down here or not? 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's under 

13 PER review, it says, but I don't know, it 

14 might have been multiple PERs, right, that 

15 case, so I'm not sure Wanda. If this was 

16 Savannah River it would have fallen under --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it could have 

18 been Super S I think pretty much everything on 

19 Savannah River got reworked for Super S 

20 plutonium. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, these 

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1 particular findings don't relate to Super S 

2 plutonium. They relate to -- we are putting 

3 zeroes, not counting a film badge reading that 

4 is left not counting as a zero. That's what 

5 the finding relates to. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

7 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Was done correctly. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think this was 

10 one of those ones that was very close so it 

11 could have potentially --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think this was 

14 a close one. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Could have been. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

19 DR. ULSH: So 153.6, I have it as a 

20 NIOSH action item to review SC&A's --

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, SC&A came 

22 back with that response at the last meeting 

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77 

1 and then it's back in your court now. And 

2 let's see, 153.7, it looks like SC&A had a 

3 response at the last meeting. And the same 

4 thing, NIOSH will review. I mean, stop me if 

5 we need to -- any discussion on these items 

6 now or if you just haven't -- yes, okay. 

7 153.8, oh that's the chooser approach again, 

8 the same. 

9 MEMBER MUNN: That's a NIOSH action. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The one that we 

11 had above, yes. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's comparing of 

14 the old fission product approach versus TIB15 54. 

16 DR. ULSH: I didn't get that chooser 

17 part. Which earlier finding did that relate 

18 to? 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll have to go 

20 back. It was 152.6, it's the same thing. 

21 They're both Savannah River cases, yes. 154.1. 

22 MEMBER MUNN: On NIOSH action. No 

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1 change. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I'm not sure 

3 what the action there is though. They are 

4 going to review the nature of the error and 

5 how to prevent it in the future. 

6 MR. SIEBERT: Actually -- this is 

7 Scott -- this one is pressed in the quality 

8 document that we are getting to later, this 

9 specific -

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I was 

11 going to say. It sounds like a quality follow 

12 up, right? Yes. 

13 MR. SIEBERT: So it is in there. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 154.2 then 

15 looks like the same kind of thing, yes. So I'm 

16 leaving in those actions now, but I think, 

17 Scott, we are going to have some discussion on 

18 them. 

19 DR. ULSH: Well, I'm putting both 

20 154.1 and .2 remains a NIOSH action item 

21 addressed in that --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, quality --

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1 DR. ULSH: Assurance follow up. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

3 MEMBER MUNN: The description here 

4 doesn't even show any difference between them. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know. That 

6 looks very close, didn't they? 

7 MEMBER MUNN: Considering they are 

8 the first and the second. 

9 MR. FARVER: One's recorded. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: One's recorded and 

11 missed. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay, 

13 recorded and missed. Very close. Same 

14 essential thing. 

15 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. Two findings. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 155.4. It's a 

17 matter of modifying the Site Profile. Is this 

18 still Savannah River, this case, 155? 

19 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, it is. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Has this been 

21 considered in the revision, Scott? 

22 MEMBER MUNN: Why do we have all 

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1 these SRS -

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know. 

3 MR. FARVER: Somebody selected them. 

4 MEMBER MUNN: I was absent that day. 

5 ` CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think so, 

6 Wanda. Your attendance record has been pretty 

7 good. 

8 MEMBER MUNN: You would have 

9 remembered it. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I would have 

11 remembered that day. 

12 MR. SIEBERT: I don't know if this 

13 is specifically being addressed in the 

14 revision or not. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Maybe we 

16 can keep it as an action for you to look at 

17 that. So Site Profile revision question. 

18 MEMBER MUNN: And the same OTIB-54 

19 question we had earlier. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, 155.6. 

21 That's the same thing --

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

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1 DR. ULSH: Same as 155 --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: As we just had, 

3 yes. And then 155.7 is back to the chooser 

4 versus TIB-54 question. Several of these, they 

5 are all Savannah River so they are competing 

6 findings here. 

7 156.1, SC&A gave us a response in 

8 July. And NIOSH -- yes. I think you needed to 

9 sort of look at SC&A's response, right, so 

10 it's back in NIOSH's court. This is a work 

11 location question, right? 

12 MR. FARVER: No, this is whether you 

13 wore one TLD or two TLDs -

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. Okay. 

15 MR. FARVER: a separate neutron 

16 dosimeter or just a TLD that had neutron --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes, yes. 

18 MR. FARVER: Capabilities. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Was it whether, 

20 or whether he was required based on work 

21 locations or -- well, I guess it's all --

22 MR. FARVER: I guess if it's a 

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82 

1 separate neutron dosimeter, then you would 

2 address like missed neutron dose and things 

3 like that, or unmonitored dose. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, the question 

5 whether the person was specifically monitored 

6 for neutron or they were just given a badge 

7 that happened to have a neutron badge in it, 

8 so even they didn't need monitored --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes. 156 --

10 oh no, no, these are all clear, sorry. I'm 

11 getting carried away. 156.5. This looks like 

12 another NIOSH follow up from --

13 MR. FARVER: It looks like the same. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: The same one --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Oh, it's the 

16 same one, okay. Yes. 

17 DR. ULSH: So the same as 156.1? 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe so, yes. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. We actually 

20 have a fair amount of non-yellow. I'm 

21 impressed. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: For 156.7 there's 

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83 

1 nothing in here to do except it was 

2 transferred. We need to make sure that got 

3 done. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay, sorry, 

5 I didn't catch that. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, there's no 

7 yellow on it, but it's a transfer and I 

8 thought we needed to make sure that got done. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I may have 

10 missed another one of -- or some other one of 

11 those, Stu, if you are keeping an eye out for 

12 those. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that was the 

14 first one. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: The first one that 

17 didn't have any sort of highlight. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 160.3 I see 

19 another transfer to Procedures Work Group, 

20 TIB-54. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, now there's no 

22 highlighting on 157.1 or .2 but I don't see 

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84 

1 we've ever responded initially. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 157? 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: 157.1 or .2. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes, it's 

5 probably because you didn't respond initially, 

6 though. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, so you're 

9 right. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: 157.1 and .2 will 

11 need our initial response. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, obviously if 

13 they are blanks they, yes, we need a response. 

14 Sorry I should probably highlight the numbers 

15 on those. 

16 DR. MAURO: That would be classified 

17 as open if this was a procedural review, 

18 right? 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly. It would 

20 be open. 

21 DR. ULSH: Don't skip over 160.3 

22 when you get there --

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85 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

2 DR. ULSH: Because I didn't write 

3 down, what status you had. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Yes. I'm 

5 there right now. 160.3. I have --

6 DR. ULSH: Transfer to somewhere? 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Transfer to 

8 Procedures Work Group, TIB-54 and the whole 

9 body counting results. And it says the case is 

10 currently being reworked. It must be a PER 

11 rework, or -- it doesn't say PER. Usually I 

12 say PER if it --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It could have been 

14 return for additional cancer --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Or something. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm sure Scott 

18 probably looked it up during the meeting for 

19 us, you know. Scott, do you know what site 

20 this is from? 

21 MR. SIEBERT: Which number I'm 

22 sorry? 

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86 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 160. 

2 MR. SIEBERT: 160 is Hanford. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Hanford. That 

4 could be a PER rework, too, right, I guess. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Could be. Could be -

6 -

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Additional cancer --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Could be additional 

11 employment. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, what does 

13 that mean to us, the case is being reworked. I 

14 have that in several of the others. Does that 

15 mean we are going to look at it again after 

16 the rework? 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we haven't 

18 made that necessarily a part of the practice. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know, but I'm 

20 just looking at these responses, it says, 

21 NIOSH agrees and then it says the case is 

22 being reworked. So I don't know that -- is 

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87 

1 that sufficiently closed out, I'm not sure. 

2 MEMBER MUNN: Well, in this 

3 particular case, where it's transferred to 

4 Procedures and TIB-54, I have it on my list to 

5 check. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I'm looking 

7 at 160.1 and .2, though, also. They say NIOSH 

8 agrees, the case is being reworked, NIOSH 

9 agrees, the case is being reworked. If -- I 

10 mean, I guess the only question would be, if 

11 they were reworked and it ended up affecting 

12 the outcome, I don't know what the PoC was 

13 originally, but you know, we would sort of 

14 want to know that if it was reworked and it 

15 had an effect on the outcome of the case. 

16 MR. SIEBERT: Just a second here. It 

17 has been reworked. It's been approved. Give me 

18 a second. The rework was compensable barely. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And what was it 

20 before the rework? 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Now you're asking a 

22 difficult question. That piece of information 

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88 

1 is not really available anymore. 

2 MR. SIEBERT: Less than that, how's 

3 that? 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm guessing it 

5 was, well -- I don't know. I don't want to 

6 guess. 

7 MR. FARVER: It was less. It was 

8 48.7. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It was 48.7. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Scott, do you know 

11 why it was reworked? 

12 MR. SIEBERT: Let me look at the 

13 draft here real quick. Most likely Super S, 

14 but --

15 DR. MAURO: Lung cancer case? 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Wouldn't necessarily 

17 have to --

18 DR. MAURO: No? Super S? 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: It could go up for 

20 something -- it could go up on --

21 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: The bioassay record, 

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89 

1 when it ends, compared to when the person got 

2 cancer, things like that. 

3 MR. SIEBERT: There was a change in 

4 employment and also they updated a Hanford 

5 TBD. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

7 MEMBER MUNN: Photon dose is 

8 missing. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, it wasn't an 

10 additional cancer or anything, I mean that 

11 would be a --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Additional 

13 employment can do it too. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Additional 

15 employment can do it too, yes. 

16 MR. KATZ: So unless you look at it, 

17 you can't really whether it's -- what you 

18 found here has to do with its change --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Exactly. 

20 MR. KATZ: or whether it's other 

21 factors. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly. Exactly. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Would you like us to 

2 do that? 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think we need 

4 to, especially where it changed 

5 compensability, yes. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We should just track 

7 down the history of this case and what has 

8 changed in -- what the key functions, what the 

9 key elements were of the change, and whether 

10 or not this procedures issue had an effect on 

11 it or not. It's going to take us a little but, 

12 I mean, we've got to go and look up some 

13 references to get the actual tracking number 

14 and then look at the history. 

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So, Mark, for an 

16 issue like 160.1 or 160.2, there would be lots 

17 of examples of those sorts of things in this 

18 matrix, where there was perhaps a data entry 

19 error or omission, NIOSH would agree with 

20 that, and your concern here is just the 

21 statement afterwards that says the case is 

22 being reworked? 

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91 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, my concern, 

2 and now, the added concern I guess is that it 

3 was reworked and a lot of times it's reworked 

4 and the compensation stays the same, you know, 

5 so we still would follow up as overall, sort 

6 of your forest idea, David is that we are 

7 looking at all these quality issues in that 

8 first 100 cases summary report to see what the 

9 significance is, and if NIOSH needs to modify 

10 from a programmatic level, but this issue, you 

11 know, has often been touched on in our follow 

12 ups in terms of well, you know, yes, small 

13 mistakes were made but they didn't affect the 

14 outcome. NIOSH got the right answer, you've 

15 made the right decision as far as 

16 compensability, so it's a lesser concern but 

17 where your -- where this did flip the 

18 compensation, we want to see if in fact it was 

19 these findings or if it was the additional 

20 employment or other issues that made that 

21 happen. 

22 If it was other employment then 

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92 

1 that's a factor outside of our review, you 

2 know, obviously, and NIOSH's control, you 

3 know, yes. 

4 DR. MAURO: And teasing that out may 

5 be a difficult thing to do. 

6 MEMBER CLAWSON: If the overall 

7 addressed in one rework it might be hard to --

8 we'll have to see, we'll just have to -- we'll 

9 look at it. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We'll have the 

11 old version, though. Yes. We have to at least 

12 try to track it down, yes. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Until we look at it 

14 we aren't going to be able to tell. It might 

15 be hard to tease out if several changes were 

16 made at once. 

17 MR. FARVER: Although a lot of 

18 times, in the DR report, if it's been reworked 

19 it will say what the changes are. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: It's supposed to say 

21 that, as of some date, it's supposed to say 

22 what change in the rework. 

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93 

1 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, the rework does 

2 state that there was a change of employment 

3 and in an update of the technical basis 

4 document, it was revised to reflect both those 

5 new information. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, there have been 

7 some -- as Hanford research has gone on, 

8 there's been additional -- there's been some 

9 stuff changed out there. 

10 MR. KATZ: That would be outside of 

11 this factor as well. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: That was probably 

13 changed in response to the Hanford Work Group 

14 documents. 

15 MR. KATZ: Right. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. It's 

17 difficult. I think we want to -- because this 

18 is one of the first ones where we have really 

19 had to look into the flip issue, so I think we 

20 want to at least pull and follow up on that. 

21 DR. MAURO: Mark, is your concern, 

22 do you want -- when something does flip, and 

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94 

1 there could be multiple factors at play when 

2 you do that, are you especially interested in 

3 knowing which -- when it's flipped because it 

4 was a rework for a PER or a rework for various 

5 reasons you describe, or it was a quality 

6 issue. Is that what you are concern was? 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think we 

8 have to know why. 

9 DR. MAURO: You want to know when 

10 it's a quality issue. 

11 MR. FARVER: So, is that something 

12 you would like us to do, go back and look at 

13 this case as if it were, you know, they would 

14 submit the files to us, and we would look at 

15 those files and write up one of our reviews 

16 and then we do a comparison between the first 

17 review and the second review for selected 

18 cases? It's something to think about. 

19 MEMBER CLAWSON: Well, this kind of 

20 comes back to how these changes were 

21 implemented and stuff, and my earlier question 

22 of you know, we say we are going to do these 

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1 changes and then we make the full circle I 

2 thought we were talking about. 

3 MR. FARVER: So I believe this is 

4 going to come up in case 175, I think one of 

5 our actions is to review the reworked case. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess my --

7 yes, I was just trying to think of a way to 

8 streamline this, but I guess my hope would be 

9 that NIOSH could take the first crack at it in 

10 terms of identifying what was changed, so you 

11 didn't have to review it as like a first, you 

12 know, cut through, and then SC&A can respond 

13 to whether they, you know, agree with that 

14 assessment. Does that make sense? I mean I 

15 think it's just a matter of identifying what 

16 changes -- I'm not sure. 

17 DR. MAURO: I guess when we go 

18 through, when we do a Savannah River, it's 

19 simply to see did they follow, did they do it 

20 according to the rules and any finding we have 

21 is going to be because they didn't right? Or 

22 this other thing where they didn't explain it 

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1 so that we could really figure it out. Now, 

2 the overarching issues come in section 1.3 --

3 we have this section of every DR report where 

4 we list all of the generic findings that we 

5 had that applied to the Site Profile in the 

6 case of say Savannah River. I'm just trying to 

7 -- I don't know if there's anything -- and in 

8 theory, we are not in a position to say 

9 whether it flips or not, even though of course 

10 we could, but we don't. I think we have just 

11 gone some place where we haven't had this 

12 conversation before. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I know, 

14 that's right. 

15 DR. MAURO: And I'm -- it's not 

16 apparent if in fact you would like to achieve 

17 closure by saying okay, here's a case that we 

18 had a number of findings, two of them were 

19 quality, a couple of them are being 

20 transferred because it goes back to the Site 

21 Profile, so there's multiple issues at work 

22 that will drive this case and whether it's 

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1 going to be reworked, and whether it's going 

2 to flip. I've got to say, I think that this is 

3 another almost task that I don't think anyone 

4 has done before. I don't know, have you -- I 

5 mean we might identify the issues that were 

6 addressed, but saying which ones, you know, 

7 which ones were the -- was any single one the 

8 one that turned it, you know --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think we 

10 have ever done that. And in terms of whether 

11 you assign it us or to SC&A, we might not have 

12 resources to work on that. 

13 DR. MAURO: And I don't think we 

14 were ever in that world. I'll tell you why, 

15 because this goes towards the question of 

16 flipping a PoC, running PoC calculations. 

17 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, my view 

18 would be that from a Program Evaluation 

19 Standpoint, kind of the question of whether a 

20 case is compensated and even whether there's a 

21 correction needed for a case is less important 

22 than the generic impact on -- so kind of a 

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1 compensation decision for a case depends in 

2 part upon the age at which the exposure 

3 occurred, the person's sex, their smoking 

4 history perhaps, lots of individual level kind 

5 of nuances which aren't really important to 

6 the kind of the generic process of how the 

7 dose was evaluated, and all those are going to 

8 be factors that weigh into whether this 

9 Probability of Causation flips. But what I 

10 think our objective is, and you can help me 

11 with this somewhat more, would be each of 

12 these findings, what's the impact in absolute 

13 terms on the dose. And you could have the dose 

14 estimate for the target organ for the 

15 compensation claim and maybe for a few other 

16 illustrative organs and see whether these 

17 findings are important for, in absolute terms, 

18 for the dose. Does that make sense? 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it would be 

20 doable to find, sort out for each finding, 

21 what's the impact on the dose. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think we 

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1 want to focus more on the dose. I agree. But 

2 then the only thing you might have to take out 

3 of the equation for comparison's sake is the 

4 change in employment, if --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but I --

6 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: That would add or 

8 subtract, I mean, it could have been he worked 

9 -- he continued to work after the claim. It 

10 could have been something as simple as that. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

12 right. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: He continued to work 

14 after he claimed and had another diagnosis 

15 later or something, although that would be an 

16 additional --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That would be an 

18 additional cancer. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. It would stop 

20 at the diagnosis. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Covered employment 

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1 stops at the diagnosis -- the relevant dose 

2 stops at the diagnosis. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Unless you have 

4 additional employment that wasn't initially 

5 reported or -

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Could have gone back 

7 earlier, could have been a break that they 

8 found records for --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Right. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Could have been a 

11 number of things, but I suspect it was 

12 something like that. 

13 DR. MAURO: What you're really 

14 saying is listen, when -- at the end of this 

15 process, a decision is made, PoC determination 

16 is made, something is granted or is not, but 

17 that's not the end of the process. There's a 

18 whole lot of other things that will force you 

19 back to go back and look at these cases again. 

20 And out of that subset, out of that group, the 

21 universe of all of the cases that you go back 

22 and look at again, that have already been 

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101 

1 adjudicated, some subset flips, may be very 

2 small, but some subset flips. And what you are 

3 really saying is some kind of diagnostic, 

4 global analysis needs to be done as almost 

5 like a root -- do we have a root cause for the 

6 one percent, the 0.1 percent that flipped, 

7 whatever the number is, because you've got a 

8 lot under your belt now -- 30,000? There is 

9 probably some number that you can go any day 

10 if they say okay, we have a couple of dozen 

11 flips, we have a hundred, we have a lot of 

12 flips, because of the -- high-fired alone 

13 probably could have done it and what I am 

14 hearing is somehow getting a diagnostic okay, 

15 what does this tell us about the program, 

16 where it may have had -- it's the flips that 

17 you are really interested in and why, and the 

18 root cause for why there was a flip, and it 

19 may turn out every one is very different, and 

20 maybe the smallest contribution may be quality 

21 where you didn't count zeroes, because I know 

22 we see that all the time and that changes 

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1 things in a small way. 

2 The big ticket item -- there are 

3 some big ticket items also, and I don't know, 

4 right now, I don't -- do you folks have --

5 let's go back, collect everything that flipped 

6 and do an analysis and tell a story. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: We have not done 

8 that. I think the analysis will have to be 

9 done one by one. The additional complicating 

10 factor in this analysis will be that it is 

11 very possible that a portion, some part of 

12 that dose reconstruction technique changed for 

13 reasons other than additional data on the case 

14 or came out of this -- it may have been 

15 additional research done at the Site Profile, 

16 at the site. It changed the Site Profile and 

17 that technique changed for any cases and so 

18 this one came back, it had all the changes in 

19 it and doesn't matter, it won't -- so it may 

20 not be -- there may be changes and there may 

21 be counterbalancing changes, for instance a 

22 change from one arena might act in opposite in 

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1 terms of the magnitude of dose from a change 

2 that came up in another arena. 

3 So that will be the complicating 

4 factor and each claim will have to be analyzed 

5 individually to make any kind of judgment. So 

6 I don't know where to --

7 MR. KATZ: Can I make a suggestion, 

8 just trying to tie this with what David just 

9 said, I mean when you do PERs you already know 

10 what flips as a result of PER, you don't need 

11 any work from this Subcommittee, because you 

12 get that when you do the PERs right? 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we know which 

14 ones change. 

15 MR. KATZ: So those sort of 

16 circumstances you know and when employment is 

17 added or subtracted and these other -- or when 

18 another cancer, that's not really interesting 

19 either for this purpose, so really, here you 

20 are only interested in the findings here, what 

21 -- like David said, what was their dose 

22 significance versus whether they flipped a 

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1 case or not. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, well it's 

3 all -- yes, I don't disagree with that, but 

4 the age of diagnosis isn't going to change, so 

5 all that stuff is the same as it was in the 

6 original case. But you are right, that and I 

7 think quite frankly the employment status, 

8 when that's -- when Scott said that, I'm 

9 thinking well maybe that added on another year 

10 that they hadn't originally accounted for, so 

11 I think you have to tease that out as well. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Didn't hear you 

13 Scott. 

14 MR. SIEBERT: It was an additional 

15 two years in the very early `50s. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So that 

17 may --

18 MR. FARVER: Well, my original 

19 thought, when I heard this, was when we write 

20 our reviews, we have our Table 1, where we 

21 look at their IREP table and we sum up these 

22 are the 30 to 250 keV photons, here's the 

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105 

1 dose. And then the total dose. So now you have 

2 a new case, the reworked case, you'd start off 

3 with the same thing. And then, where those two 

4 are different, you say okay, why is that 

5 photon dose different and then you go back and 

6 say oh, it's page 62 of the revised TBD. Just 

7 something where you identify the differences. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well since this 

9 is our first experience with this, I think 

10 that might be a good idea, especially after 

11 what Stu said, which is that NIOSH is likely 

12 not to be able to prioritize this. Maybe it 

13 would be better if you took it with you to let 

14 SC&A have a first crack at it. 

15 DR. ULSH: So 160.3. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is now an SC&A 

17 action. 

18 DR. ULSH: To review the case. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: To review the 

20 follow up case, revised case. 

21 MR. FARVER: Provide us with all the 

22 files. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, NIOSH will 

2 provide the files. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Time to take care of 

4 my buddy Doug. I don't want him to get bored. 

5 MR. FARVER: Don't worry, I'm going 

6 to assign this --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Looking out for him, 

8 all right. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That should bring 

10 us through 160 then. 

11 MS. BEHLING: Mark. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

13 MS. BEHLING: Excuse me, this is 

14 Kathy Behling. I just wanted to add something 

15 to this. It's a little bit of a side issue on 

16 reviewing this case but the reason I think we 

17 also may want to -- which would be a good idea 

18 to review this particular case, if we go back 

19 and look at findings, not only finding 160.3 

20 but finding 160.1 and 160.2, I think we had 

21 talked about this before. When a case is being 

22 reworked, does that dose reconstructor always 

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1 see all of the findings associated with the 

2 specific case that we discuss during these 

3 Subcommittee meetings and I think by looking 

4 at this particular case, not only from the 

5 aspect of the OTIB-54, but we can also then 

6 look at, were the photon doses changed for 

7 1952 and was that picked up, because I know 

8 that at previous Subcommittee meetings we had 

9 talked about how do we go about ensuring that 

10 that dose reconstructor knows that there is a 

11 finding on this particular case when he does 

12 this rework, and we had talked about perhaps 

13 putting a note in the file or something along 

14 those lines. 

15 Reviewing this particular case 

16 would give us an opportunity to see if that is 

17 happening. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, that's a good 

19 point Kathy yes. 

20 MR. FARVER: Katy, do you think Hans 

21 would like to work on this? 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, we are up 

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108 

1 to 161 and if it's okay with the group I am 

2 going to propose that we take a 10-minute 

3 break starting right now. 

4 MR. KATZ: So we will start back up 

5 at eleven. 

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

7 matter went off the record at 10:47 a.m. and 

8 resumed at 11:02 a.m.) 

9 MR. KATZ: We are reconvening after 

10 a short break, Dose Reconstruction 

11 Subcommittee. Mark. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Starting 

13 back up with number 161. Still on the eighth 

14 matrix if you are just joining in, or if you 

15 left for a while. We are going to finish off 

16 with the eighth matrix, going through just to 

17 update our action items and it's probably a 

18 good idea that we did this because it is 

19 certainly refreshing all of our memories in 

20 the room here. So 161.1 looks okay. Up to 

21 161.2. I think that's a pretty clear action 

22 for NIOSH. Oh wait a second, 7/23 it says this 

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109 

1 is a QA concern, SC&A agrees that the reported 

2 incidents would not have affected the 

3 compensation decision. NIOSH will check to 

4 determine if the directive to include this in 

5 the DR report predates the assessment date for 

6 this case. So you have put a directive out, 

7 apparently, but it might have come after this 

8 case. Is that the idea? 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it falls in 

11 the QA category and it's a minor thing but it 

12 is worth looking at to see if the directive 

13 predated the case. Anything more on that one? 

14 162.1. This says no further action 

15 but it was highlighted so I'm just going to 

16 make sure. Is that no further action? 

17 MEMBER MUNN: We'll chuck old claims 

18 to prepaid. That predates the new Work Group. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. We were 

20 asking specifically whether this requires a 

21 PER review, right? That was the only action, 

22 yes. That still remains, I imagine, right? I 

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110 

1 think. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we should do 

3 some of that analysis. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this is the 

5 closing of the loop like Brant was talking 

6 about seeing if it affects other cases. All 

7 right. 162.2. Is this the same? 

8 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, the same thing. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Same thing, same 

10 sort of thing, yes. You okay? Next one I have 

11 is 162.9, and this is a more case-specific 

12 case about the solubility chosen to run the 

13 internal dose, I guess. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Scott, if you 

16 ever have the answer to these, you know, just 

17 let us know if you have looked at these and 

18 close them out. 

19 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, I will. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

21 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So is this one 

22 that would have a large impact on dose? 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Let me think for a 

2 minute. 

3 MR. SIEBERT: Oh, I actually do have 

4 an answer on this one. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I thought you 

6 might, see. 

7 MR. SIEBERT: Yes. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I was giving you 

9 the opening. 

10 MR. SIEBERT: Thank you for the --

11 Yes, I dug on this right after last meeting 

12 and originally the dose reconstructor did use 

13 a Type F americium. However, the peer reviewer 

14 caught it and they were instructed to remove 

15 it from the claim, however one single IMBA 

16 file did not get removed from the claim. It 

17 should not have been submitted with it. It was 

18 not used in the actual assessment, but the 

19 previous version, and like I say one single 

20 file kind of slipped through. So that's what 

21 the issue was. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Scott, did one --

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1 did the M result in a higher organ dose, is 

2 that why it went to M? 

3 MR. SIEBERT: Well no, M is the only 

4 --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: It's the only one? 

6 MR. SIEBERT: Solubility type we use 

7 because that is the one represented by ICRP 

8 68. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, it's odd that 

11 they ever would have looked at F. Yes. 

12 MR. SIEBERT: I agree. that's why 

13 the peer reviewer said don't do that. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

15 MEMBER MUNN: So, the whole 

16 description go on there or just check 

17 completed and say okay -- what are we saying? 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I'm just 

19 capturing what he said, that the original DR 

20 used type F but it was caught on peer review 

21 and type M was used for the final dose 

22 reconstruction. And the question I would have 

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113 

1 is that you said it was submitted and it 

2 shouldn't have been, but I would argue that it 

3 should. That's that show your work question, 

4 you know, if somebody was considering 

5 different options, but you are saying in this 

6 case, they should have been --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: They shouldn't --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They shouldn't 

9 have even looked at it, okay. Okay. All right. 

10 MR. FARVER: Really, yes, all 

11 references to type F should not have carried 

12 over. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

14 MR. FARVER: But they did and that's 

15 why it was confusing. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But in some cases 

17 where you are considering what is the --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: If you are weighing 

19 two --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What is the most 

21 conservative, yes --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, then you can 

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114 

1 include both. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Then you should 

3 show it all. Okay, I just wanted to be clear, 

4 yes, yes, okay. All right. So I don't think 

5 there's any further action if SC&A is 

6 comfortable with NIOSH's follow up, yes. 

7 MR. FARVER: It sums it up there, 

8 the file wasn't -- one of the files was not 

9 included therefore we could not duplicate the 

10 doses, which was because of what went on, what 

11 Scott explained, I mean that explains it. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

13 MR. FARVER: It just, they didn't 

14 remove all the type F references. He said a 

15 file got through. 

16 MR. KATZ: So this is a case where 

17 QA worked like it should. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

19 DR. ULSH: Well, sort of. 

20 MR. KATZ: Except for the part of 

21 that file, that the file wasn't used. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Now, did you say 

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115 

1 that you weren't able to review it because the 

2 file was not there for the type M or are you -

3 -

4 MR. FARVER: No, one was there and 

5 not the other. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you never did 

7 --

8 MR. FARVER: In other words --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You didn't review 

10 the type F -

11 MR. FARVER: The type F was there -

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, do you 

13 still need to follow up and review the type M, 

14 or? 

15 MR. FARVER: It's probably okay, I 

16 mean I don't think that that dose was critical 

17 anyway. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It wasn't that --

19 MR. SIEBERT: Doug's question, if I 

20 remember correctly, was it was never used in 

21 the write-up of the assessment, why is that 

22 dose there? 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

2 MR. SIEBERT: And if it should have 

3 been, it should have been mentioned in the 

4 dose reconstruction. 

5 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. So 

7 I'll leave it as no further action. Okay? 

8 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Next one I have 

10 is 163.4. This looks like it is still in 

11 NIOSH's hands to review this, right? 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Looks that way. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Used a different 

14 model, right? 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it has to be 

16 with the, essentially the surrogate, right, 

17 for -- yes, whether we picked the right number 

18 on the cable. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

20 right. So it ends up being a --

21 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We'll follow, 

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117 

1 we'll close it out, I mean we will, you know, 

2 we need to close it out and --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think it was 

4 one of the ones selected on our thing there. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: So it would be 

7 something similar to that I guess, to close it 

8 out, or if we agree that these are appropriate 

9 responses --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: That are still kind 

12 of up in the air we are still --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Struggling with what 

15 exactly is required on these quality things, 

16 so. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, the next 

18 one I have is 165.1. I think that should say 

19 NIOSH will check to make sure the workbook, 

20 not Work Group has been updated. That's my 

21 typo. But I don't know if you have done this. 

22 This seems like something that should be a 

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1 fairly quick one. I don't know if you have had 

2 the opportunity though. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think we 

4 have anything to report. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, okay. So it 

6 remains an action. And the next one is also 

7 workbook. Yes. Definitely is. I need a peer 

8 reviewer. 

9 All right. I'm on 165.3. I see it 

10 still in NIOSH's hands but I wanted to make 

11 sure we understand the issue. 

12 MR. FARVER: It's a workbook 

13 calculation issue. They start off calculating 

14 it like you would expect and then they got 

15 through and divide by the bias of 1.6. When 

16 you divide by that, you don't overestimate the 

17 dose, you underestimate it. 

18 MEMBER MUNN: Divide, and then 

19 multiply. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Look at 

21 that. I cut and pasted that a lot of times. 

22 The next one Work Group should also be 

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119 

1 workbook. I was moving fast, though. 

2 MEMBER MUNN: And we know the Work 

3 Group is not ready. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It might be both 

5 that need to be updated, right? So that was 

6 165.4, and then 165.5. This refers to a later 

7 finding. Interesting. Refers to 168.4. 

8 MR. FARVER: Yes, typically for 

9 medical doses, they have a 30 percent 

10 uncertainty. In the specific case of 165, they 

11 had a 20 percent not a 30 percent, okay, that 

12 shouldn't be there. So that was the specific -

13 -

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's QA and 

15 then we had just to assure that it's not going 

16 to affect the outcome, right? 

17 MR. FARVER: Then it relates to a 

18 later finding, 168.4. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Was that also 

20 same --

21 MR. FARVER: The same type of --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

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1 MR. FARVER: Or similar. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. We are going 

3 to get to that in a second. All right. 166.5. 

4 MEMBER MUNN: So, it's still a NIOSH 

5 action. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that last 

7 one. And looks like this one also. So this is 

8 the -- just --

9 MEMBER MUNN: Just to make sure it 

10 was done. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Determine if 

12 the X-rays were included, right? 

13 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The next one is 

15 the IREP versus the -- the IREP is not 

16 consistent with the DR, is that what you are 

17 saying? 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Tab W is the 

19 specific workbook. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The tool, yes. So 

21 there's an inconsistency between the two and 

22 the big thing is to check to make sure --

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's not going to 

3 make a major difference but otherwise it's a 

4 QA thing. Then I'm down to 167.3, which is a 

5 long response there, but NIOSH will review 

6 further based on specifics of the job 

7 information and how it is outlined in TIB-7. 

8 TIB-7 is? 

9 MR. FARVER: Shallow dose. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Shallow dose, 

11 yes. 

12 MR. FARVER: I believe. 

13 MR. SIEBERT: It's assignment of 

14 neutrons at Savannah River Site. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: Carries over. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Still a 

18 NIOSH action. Okay, 167.5. 

19 MR. FARVER: Okay, that's our 

20 action. Specifically, it has to do with the Y21 12 coworker dose and the CADW different 

22 versions. Version 4.03 I believe was used 

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122 

1 originally to assess this case. It came up 

2 with one number. When we did our DR review, 

3 that CADW had been revised to a different 

4 version. So when our reviewer went in and 

5 looked at the numbers and plugged into the 

6 newer version, he came out with a slightly 

7 higher number. The version that he reviewed, 

8 it was 6.0, I didn't have access to it, I have 

9 access to 5.3 and 6.02 and if you put it in as 

10 a Y-12 coworker dose, in other words you 

11 select, up to the top, Y-12 as the site for 

12 the default, and you select use coworker 

13 values, and it will add the correct intake, 

14 that will give you one value, the value that 

15 was contained in the DR report through all the 

16 versions of the CADW that I could find. 

17 However if you go and put in the 

18 intake of 7,054.4 dpm per day, and you put in 

19 a standard deviation of 3.77, just like it 

20 says, and this comes out of Table 5.1 of OTIB21 29, which is the Y-12 coworker data, and if 

22 you put in those values from that table 

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1 manually, you come up with a slightly higher 

2 dose in all versions. Why? 

3 MEMBER POSTON: What's slightly? 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think he said 

5 14 percent higher. 

6 MR. FARVER: Fourteen percent 

7 difference. Now I don't know why because you 

8 are using the same standard deviation. You are 

9 using the same intake value, the same material 

10 to class -

11 MR. HINNEFELD: What was the table 

12 in --

13 MR. FARVER: Oh, 5-1. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: 5-1 in OTIB-29? 

15 MR. FARVER: Yes. So that was 

16 perplexing. I could not resolve that. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Did you find you 

18 runs showing the difference? 

19 MR. FARVER: I did, but it's not 

20 conclusive from the run because the reviewer 

21 ran the version, he put in a standard 

22 deviation of 3.0, and I figure that's got to 

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124 

1 be the difference. So, it wasn't, because I 

2 went in and ran it with 3.77 and it was still 

3 higher when you entered the intake manually as 

4 opposed to selecting the Y-12 coworker data, 

5 even though the intake is the same, the type 

6 is the same, the standard deviation is the 

7 same, the type of distribution is the same, 

8 log-normal. So I don't know what's going on 

9 behind there that has that little difference. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

11 MR. FARVER: That was all. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's it. But 

13 that could impact -- that's one of those 

14 global impacting things, yes, essentially. 

15 MR. FARVER: You would expect those 

16 two runs to be the same but it's not dependent 

17 on version apparently, it's just how you enter 

18 the data. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Coworker or 

20 manual, right? 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay now just so I'm 

22 straight here, and I'm not very familiar with 

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125 

1 CADW, said that one of the options on CADW is 

2 to choose Y-12 coworker. 

3 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: And it goes in 

5 everything automatically --

6 MR. FARVER: And it enters 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Gives you dose 

8 numbers. 

9 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Another option 

11 on CADW still --

12 MR. FARVER: Is you can enter the 

13 intake manually. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Intake manually so 

15 many picocuries per day. 

16 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

18 MR. FARVER: And you can set the 

19 distribution type and you can set the standard 

20 deviation to whatever you want. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: And so you set those 

22 to be the same as what the coworker 

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1 distribution tells you if it is true --

2 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: And it comes out a 

4 little different. 

5 MR. SIEBERT: Hey Doug, I assume --

6 this is Scott -- I assume that you ran it both 

7 ways and you are saying the difference is 

8 still there? 

9 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

10 MR. SIEBERT: Okay. It would be very 

11 helpful to us if we could have your runs for 

12 the comparison because we can compare it to 

13 our own as well and see if there is any other 

14 issue that we are not catching. 

15 MR. FARVER: Okay. I just thought 

16 you could do the same thing and try it, enter 

17 it manually or enter it through Y-12 coworker. 

18 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, I'm just trying 

19 to head off the fact of waiting until the next 

20 meeting if ours happen to come out identical. 

21 MEMBER MUNN: Actually the action 

22 item was for SC&A to attach the kind of runs 

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127 

1 that they completed. 

2 MR. FARVER: Well, and when I did 

3 find them they really didn't show what I --

4 MEMBER MUNN: What you wanted to 

5 show. 

6 MR. FARVER: Yes, because I thought 

7 the error was in the standard deviation --

8 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

9 MR. FARVER: but it wasn't. 

10 MEMBER MUNN: No. 

11 MR. FARVER: So then I kept trying 

12 everything. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can you just 

14 provide those? Yes. 

15 MR. FARVER: Yes, I can forward 

16 those to Scott. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

18 MR. SIEBERT: Thank you. 

19 MR. FARVER: I just thought it was 

20 interesting that it came down to just how you 

21 entered the data. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. All right. 

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128 

1 So that remains an SC&A action, well it's kind 

2 of a combined, once you provide him the --

3 yes. NIOSH will review those. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Yes, I'll 

6 put that in there too, yes. 

7 DR. MAURO: I'm sure we had this 

8 conversation once before but I'll do it again 

9 anyway. The whole idea of these tools and 

10 workbooks, I know one time when we reviewed 

11 procedures, one of the things we did review 

12 and were going to report on, it seems like for 

13 all intents and purposes, the procedures are 

14 no longer the -- where the action is. Where 

15 the action is, is the Work Group, is the 

16 workbook. And now the procedures always have a 

17 pedigree, I mean they have a written document, 

18 they are loaded, they are QC, they have a 

19 pedigree. The workbooks seem to be something 

20 that may or may not have a pedigree. Am I 

21 wrong? 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: In what sense? 

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129 

1 DR. MAURO: In the sense that it 

2 goes through the same formal QA, QC, because 

3 if that becomes effectively your procedure, 

4 it's sort of like, and that's fine, but that 

5 means it has to be -- have the same 

6 reliability and go through the same -- because 

7 that becomes your -- I noticed more and more 

8 that when we do our audits, we go right 

9 through the workbook --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

11 DR. MAURO: We see what the inputs 

12 are, we see that they did -- and so in effect 

13 we were reviewing your work as against you 

14 workbook, as opposed to, well in your case you 

15 did both, you looked at the workbook and then 

16 you looked at the procedure and you did it by 

17 hand and -- I guess I'm just raising a 

18 question that, I know we had this conversation 

19 before, but if where all the action is, is the 

20 workbook and the tools, and it's turning the 

21 crank, there has to be some level of assurance 

22 that the quality and the reliability of those 

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130 

1 workbooks are equivalent to the same treatment 

2 you give to procedures. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, there is a 

4 quality process on the workbook. 

5 DR. MAURO: On the workbooks 

6 themselves. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Whether it is 

8 exactly the same process or not, I guess I 

9 wouldn't be prepared to say. For instance we 

10 sign off on TIBs that the contractor prepares. 

11 We don't necessarily sign off on workbooks, it 

12 is not clear to me if we sign off on the 

13 testing that they do for the workbooks, so it 

14 would be something that we should take down to 

15 -- I can make this special in something 

16 specific to a particular finding or something 

17 that we should evaluate that from our 

18 standpoint in terms of approvals of workbooks 

19 and those kinds of things. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I guess I 

21 was just kind of reflecting on what John said. 

22 I think, I mean the way I have always thought 

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131 

1 of it was that the procedures review was 

2 looking at the written procedures more than 

3 the workbooks, but then this process ends up 

4 diving into the workbooks because we are doing 

5 case by case so, you know, we are -- when we 

6 catch things that way we are, you know --

7 DR. MAURO: In a funny sort of way 

8 the conversation you just had really doesn't 

9 go toward this Work Group, I mean the 

10 Subcommittee, it really goes to the procedure 

11 --

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

13 DR. MAURO: Because in effect, this 

14 is a procedure, and you are using this tool as 

15 a procedure like you would use any procedure 

16 so it's really adjunct, whether it's site 

17 specific or generic, it's an adjunct to a 

18 procedure that has a great deal of importance 

19 so that's what is being used. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, that's 

21 something I've been --

22 DR. MAURO: I know. 

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132 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes --

2 DR. MAURO: I --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That is something 

4 I have been for ages -- which is that these 

5 guidelines and things like that, or the 

6 workbook is where the action is as opposed to 

7 the --

8 DR. MAURO: And we did put a work 

9 product out several years ago where we did 

10 look at the generation of tools that were out 

11 there as adjuncts to the OTIBs. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

13 DR. MAURO: And we put a report out 

14 so we never really got to it and also I recall 

15 that it was problematic. I'll tell you what 

16 happened then. It's all coming back now. You 

17 know, once we are given an authority to do 

18 some work and we go ahead and do it, all 

19 right, let's say it takes us some time to do 

20 it. By the time we are done, those workbooks 

21 evolved. You heard the rev numbers. Rev 

22 numbers doo doo doo, and all of a sudden we 

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133 

1 are left, wait a minute, that doesn't count 

2 anymore, so where we ended up was we went 

3 through and put a product out which was really 

4 outdated by the time it went out and couldn't 

5 be checked or used or have any value. So we 

6 really -- and it was -- I wouldn't say it's a 

7 waste of time but what it did reveal is that, 

8 you know, if something is undergoing 

9 continuous evolution and improvements and 

10 refinements, we can't just step in and look at 

11 it. By the time we are done, it's meaningless. 

12 So we actually left that and Kathy, I think 

13 you know better. Am I characterizing this 

14 correctly, if you are listening in? 

15 MS. BEHLING. Yes, I am. John, you 

16 are correct, yes, keep going. That's exactly 

17 what we did. 

18 DR. MAURO: Now, yes, okay, and I 

19 don't know, where does that leave us? It means 

20 that we are in a situation, unfortunately, 

21 where the procedures are getting a great deal 

22 of attention, as Wanda could attest to, the 

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134 

1 workbooks aren't. In a funny sort of way they 

2 really can't because they are undergoing 

3 evolution. Some of the changes may be 

4 substantive, some may just be convenience, I'm 

5 not sure, but --

6 MS. BEHLING: Although -- oh excuse 

7 me John. 

8 DR. MAURO: Yes. Sure. 

9 MS. BEHLING: This is Kathy. 

10 Although when we were reviewing the 

11 procedures, we also looked at the workbook at 

12 that time --

13 DR. MAURO: At that time. 

14 MS. BEHLING: We just didn't --

15 rather than doing a separate report on looking 

16 at all of the workbooks, we decided while we 

17 were reviewing the procedures and the OTIBs, 

18 that we also look at the workbooks that --

19 DR. MAURO: And I remember that task 

20 and it was very early in this process. But now 

21 I'm hearing conversations regarding workbooks 

22 and you know, we just heard these revisions 

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135 

1 and these changes and it's almost like I 

2 wanted to say, maybe it's time to have this 

3 conversation again. 

4 MR. KATZ: But you're actually 

5 getting at that -- we discussed earlier a case 

6 where the workbook reflected later work than 

7 the TBD and the resolution was elaborate the 

8 TBD to reflect what is new in the workbook. So 

9 if you're getting at that --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And the only 

11 other way we would get at it I think is to try 

12 to select cases that are newer cases that are 

13 more recent so we are getting more recent 

14 revisions. But you are right. We are always 

15 going to be a few steps behind perhaps, but we 

16 will have to look at the way it's designed. We 

17 have to look at things at a point in time, 

18 right? 

19 Okay, I am going to move on unless 

20 there's any other insights on that. 168.4, is 

21 that where we left off? 

22 This refers back to 165.5 Doug, 

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136 

1 like you said, is that -

2 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So that's related 

4 to that medical dose question. 

5 MR. FARVER: Yes, this is another 

6 one where they do not multiply by the 30 

7 percent or add the 30 percent or our finding 

8 was rung out of a Technical Basis Document 

9 that, for actual dose calculations, 

10 reconstructors should assume the normal 

11 distribution in an uncertainty of plus or 

12 minus 30 percent. Reconstructors should only 

13 use the positive uncertainty and multiply the 

14 doses by a factor of 1.3 to include 

15 uncertainty. In this case they did do that so 

16 that's why we wrote the finding. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And it the case 

18 that NIOSH agrees but the one thing it doesn't 

19 say there, it says you're going to look at the 

20 section of the TBD but it doesn't say whether 

21 this could have potentially affected the 

22 outcome of the case. 

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137 

1 MR. FARVER: Well, initially it came 

2 back and said it is a should statement and we 

3 don't have to do and --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I'm looking 

5 at the --

6 MR. SIEBERT: Well, that is -- this 

7 is Scott. That's true, the way the TBD should 

8 have been written was that you have the 30 

9 percent normal distribution, which is your 

10 best estimate, or you can use as an 

11 overestimating assumption a factor of 1.3 

12 which is just taking into account the high end 

13 of the uncertainty. It's just one sentence was 

14 written a little obviously unclearly so that's 

15 what needed to be updated in the TBD. It would 

16 have been in conflict with other direction we 

17 have on medical X-ray doses so we all know 

18 that you don't apply both of those. It's just 

19 the TBD was not written as clearly as it 

20 should have been. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you are saying 

22 that the dose for this case doesn't have to be 

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138 

1 adjusted at all -

2 MR. SIEBERT: Correct. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's just TBD to 

4 be reworded to be consistent with your other -

5 - with your practices. Okay. 

6 MR. SIEBERT: Correct. 

7 MR. FARVER: Consistent with 

8 procedure. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

10 MR. FARVER: Was it 61? 

11 DR. MAURO: Sixty -- oh for X-rays. 

12 I guess what I heard is I recalled checking 

13 and sometimes you used the normal plus or 

14 minus 30 percent, which is the standard, or 

15 you take the dose and you multiply by 1.3. 

16 There was an option. Wasn't that an option? 

17 MR. FARVER: I think it is in the 

18 procedure. 

19 MR. SIEBERT: Earlier on in the 

20 project we would use that option. We have 

21 determined that basically we are just going to 

22 use normal. Let's use them all as a best 

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139 

1 estimate because it doesn't really save us any 

2 time either way. 

3 DR. MAURO: And what happened here? 

4 MR. SIEBERT: This one used the best 

5 estimate method of normal distribution, 30 

6 percent, which is correct. It did not deal 

7 with a factor of 1.3. 

8 MR. FARVER: It had different 

9 wording in the Technical Basis. 

10 MR. SIEBERT: Correct. 

11 DR. MAURO: So it did arrive. 

12 MR. FARVER: Correct. 

13 DR. MAURO: It did arrive, okay. 

14 MR. FARVER: It's just the 

15 documentation was -- not consistent with what 

16 they did. 

17 DR. ULSH: What was the other 

18 document that it's supposed to be consistent 

19 with? Procedure something? 

20 MR. FARVER: It was 60 or 61. 

21 DR. MAURO: There's two X-ray 

22 procedures. One is OTIB-6 and the other one is 

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140 

1 either 60 or 61. 

2 MR. FARVER: Okay. I'm not sure 

3 which one it was not consistent with. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: The one on medical 

5 X-rays. 

6 MR. FARVER: They all blend 

7 together. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 168.5. 

9 This was you action, Doug. 

10 MR. FARVER: Oh, okay. Let me see 

11 what it is. I looked at this. Okay. We'll come 

12 back to this in a couple of minutes. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Want to come back 

14 after -- I'll put it down, we can come back to 

15 it. 

16 MR. FARVER: We are going to find 

17 the file. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

19 MR. FARVER: I looked this up and I 

20 did something and I just have to find where 

21 it's at. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I'll move 

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141 

1 ahead and we can come back to that one. 168.7, 

2 NIOSH will investigate further. Usually when I 

3 say investigate it's about worker placement, 

4 right? Yes. It said T building, potential 

5 exposure in the T building. 

6 So it's a question of assigning 

7 plutonium dose for someone that was in the T 

8 building. Is that sort of the -- I think 

9 that's the gist of it. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. First you had a 

11 termination bioassay. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So I 

13 guess it's really a question of where they 

14 were working. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Were they plutonium 

16 exposed or not? 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

18 right, yes, we don't need to get into the 

19 specifics. 169.1. 

20 MR. SIEBERT: I believe this is the 

21 same 30 percent --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I see it. I see 

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142 

1 it at the bottom. Okay. So that's the same 

2 question of correcting that --

3 MR. SIEBERT: Yes. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: TIB-60 or 

5 procedure 60, 61, whatever it is -- not 

6 correcting that but correcting the TBD to be 

7 consistent with that, right? 

8 MR. SIEBERT: And it's procedure 61. 

9 DR. MAURO: It is 61. Okay. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There you go 

11 Brant. Okay. I am down to 170.2. Is this a 

12 worker location question again? It's about the 

13 same neutron issues. 

14 It's a question I think of whether 

15 to assign the neutron exposures, is that 

16 correct, based on job? 

17 So you assign neutrons over a 

18 certain time period but not over others and 

19 it's unclear to SC&A, yes. That remains a 

20 NIOSH action, correct? 

21 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Down to 

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1 171.4. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it looks like 

3 171, two or three, it doesn't look like we've 

4 submitted -

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, they're 

6 blank, I'm sorry, yes. Thanks for catching 

7 that. 71.2 and 3 have no responses yet so and 

8 171.4 looks like the assignment question again 

9 I think. Oh no, maybe not. Sorry. This is an 

10 internal coworker question, internal coworker 

11 model question. 

12 I think this is a question of which 

13 model was selected over what time periods, 

14 right Stu? I think sometimes you used 

15 environmental --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, well this looks 

17 to me like an exposed versus non-exposed 

18 question, where, you know, you say the -- at 

19 some period of time -- yes, they used 

20 environmentally and weren't exposed so you 

21 used environmental and they're saying we're 

22 not so sure based on the guidance you have in 

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144 

1 your Technical Documents. It looks like this 

2 case should have been considered exposed and 

3 I'm guessing we're saying we're going to 

4 investigate this further. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And I like 

6 171.5. I'm laughing because I'm not sure what 

7 the heck, I think I forgot what organ it was 

8 so I had a placeholder in there. 

9 MEMBER MUNN: Well, whatever it is, 

10 it is not a question of --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Something is 

12 organ, not solubility, solubility tests were 

13 not evaluated. It's not so clear to me what is 

14 meant by that. 

15 MR. FARVER: If you look in the 

16 NIOSH response, they refer to a specific file 

17 and they are saying the xxx is the type of 

18 organ -- it's the type of -- yes, it's the 

19 type of organ and the core concern is the 

20 solubility. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

22 MR. FARVER: So --

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1 MR. SIEBERT: I'm going to see if I 

2 can pull up that file real quick. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you concern, 

4 Doug, was that they didn't look at the 

5 different solubilities to see which was going 

6 to be the worst case, or --

7 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I'll just 

9 jot that down. If Scott finds something on it, 

10 we can come back. 

11 171.6. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: NIOSH follow up to 

13 find out how close one building was to where 

14 the incident occurred. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, yes, this is 

16 the incident, right? 

17 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

18 MR. SIEBERT: I apologize, it's 

19 going to take me a little while to get to that 

20 file because we have reworked the case since 

21 then so I can't track it down right now. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's 171, okay. 

2 DR. ULSH: I might have this totally 

3 wrong, but 171.6 has to do with how close two 

4 buildings were to each other. Is that the one 

5 that we sent out information on that --

6 MR. FARVER: That's correct, yes. 

7 DR. ULSH: Yes. I don't know if that 

8 changes the status or not, but --

9 MR. FARVER: But, yes, we do have an 

10 --

11 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So NIOSH did send 

13 a response. 

14 MR. FARVER: 3019 in relation to 

15 3022. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

17 MR. FARVER: And I think they're in 

18 pretty close. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Incident at 3019, 

20 right, right. 

21 MR. FARVER: Because 3022 is no 

22 longer around. 

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1 DR. ULSH: So the way it reads right 

2 now is NIOSH will follow up to determine the 

3 location of the building 3022 in proximity to 

4 3019. It sounds like Dr. Poston has already 

5 sent out information like that. So is that 

6 status still appropriate or do we have some 

7 other action item or --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Did you look at -

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, our additional 

10 action is to then interpret from that whether 

11 we agree with the finding or not --

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Whether we agree 

14 with the finding or --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That was sort of 

16 a sub-action. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: That was the first 

18 action. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Now that you know 

20 the proximity, does it impact the -- yes. So 

21 this person is saying they were in 3022 during 

22 this incident but that wasn't --

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They were in 3022 

3 during the incident. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. But that 

6 wasn't considered in their dose reconstruction 

7 so now you should look at that. Yes. 

8 Okay. Now we go to a new color 

9 here. This is Tab 171. The case is reevaluated 

10 and remains non-compensable. No further 

11 action. Just going to get rid of that blue on 

12 there. Anyway. 

13 173.2. So NIOSH agreed with the 

14 original finding, SC&A accepts the response 

15 and then the question is did it affect the 

16 case. In the same with 173.3. 

17 MR. SIEBERT: I'm checking. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Let's see 

19 173.5 I have a more open-ended NIOSH follow 

20 up. Oh no, wait -- yes. Kind of a NIOSH will 

21 follow up on SC&A's response. So this is a 

22 justification for not assigning the ambient 

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149 

1 doses. 

2 MR. SIEBERT: We do not have -- we 

3 were never returned this claim through rework 

4 so we would have to do all this offline as we 

5 have done in the past and this one hasn't been 

6 done yet so I'll put that down on the list to 

7 do. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So we're up 

9 on 174.1 unless Doug, do you have anything 

10 back on those others ones that I have on hold 

11 over here? 

12 MR. FARVER: It was just that one --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 168.5, is that 

14 the one? 

15 MR. FARVER: Yes. I cannot find a --

16 we'll say a spreadsheet in the files, in the 

17 worker's files, that calculates the doses that 

18 are in the IREP table. In other words the IREP 

19 table will give you one dose that we reference 

20 in our document, but I cannot find any 

21 supporting calculations how they came up with 

22 that number. So I can't tell if it's a 

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150 

1 workbook error or not because I can't tell how 

2 they came up with that number. Now, I believe 

3 we suspected they used a different dose 

4 conversion factor and that's what we put in 

5 our finding. We say we believe they did it 

6 this way using this dose conversion factor and 

7 came up with the number in that manner. Let me 

8 get you some specifics real quick. Has to do 

9 with -- oh, whether they used the dose 

10 conversion factor for ambient dose equivalent 

11 or the dose conversion factor for deep dose 

12 equivalent. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

14 MR. FARVER: That's what it was. So 

15 although we can't find a worksheet that shows 

16 how they calculated it, if you go through the 

17 process and put in the value for deep dose 

18 equivalent you come up with their value that's 

19 in their IREP table. I could not find a 

20 spreadsheet in their files that showed how the 

21 calculation occurs. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this -- when 

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151 

1 this says -- when the NIOSH response 

2 originally says here DCF should have been used 

3 rather than SC&A's suggestion of H10 organ 

4 dose DCF. Was that your suggestion or was that 

5 your feeling that that was what they had used? 

6 If you read the original response, I'm a 

7 little confused. My understanding of what you 

8 are saying is that when you have plugged in 

9 the H10 organ dose DCFs, you got the number 

10 that they --

11 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: reported. 

13 MR. FARVER: Correct. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But that wasn't 

15 your suggestion to use that. 

16 MR. FARVER: No, that's what we 

17 believe they did. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They did. Right. 

19 But you are thinking that was wrong to do 

20 that. It should have been the ambient. 

21 MR. FARVER: It should have been the 

22 ambient dose conversion factor. 

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152 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So that's 

2 misstated a little bit, I think. You see what 

3 I'm saying, in that first line of the 

4 response? Rather than SC&A's belief that that 

5 was it. In other words you weren't suggesting 

6 to use that. You believe that's what they did, 

7 right? 

8 MR. FARVER: I believe that's what 

9 they did because that's how -- you come up 

10 with the same value if you do it that way and 

11 I do not have any documentation supporting 

12 their calculations otherwise. In other words 

13 we don't have the calculations on how they did 

14 it. I couldn't find them. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: So here, the issue 

16 here appears to be that our response 

17 mischaracterizes the finding. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think so. 

19 Yes. And we didn't catch that earlier, but --

20 DR. MAURO: At the risk of showing 

21 my ignorance, what's the difference between 

22 Hp(10) and ambient? 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it's the 

2 ambient I believe is exposure. It depends on 

3 how you measure. Hp(10) is absorbed dose of 10 

4 and --

5 DR. MAURO: I never understood that. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: What we said is 

7 exposure to organ dose conversion. But there 

8 is an ambient dose conversion. 

9 DR. MAURO: Yes, I know there's a --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that one 

11 confuses me all the time too. I have to get 

12 Tim to explain it to me again. 

13 DR. MAURO: Okay, so you're in the 

14 same boat I am. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: It's wrapped up I 

16 think in some ICR units --

17 DR. MAURO: I think it is too. I 

18 have run across it and I think -- is Hans on 

19 the line? 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And from a value 

21 --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Don't ask Hans these 

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154 

1 questions or we won't get to lunch. 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: From a value 

4 standpoint --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean we found out 

6 the difference in dose conversion factors on 

7 the ambient dose, I mean this is probably 

8 almost nothing. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Yes. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, in terms 

11 of quantitative numbers. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I was 

13 pointing out, yes. I'm not sure how to bring 

14 this to a closure though. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Let's see if we 

16 can't reword our response somehow. This goes 

17 on and on and on and I don't know --

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I mean, if 

19 you agree that is what it has done, but it 

20 impacts the case very minimally, then we can 

21 close it --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I think we can just 

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155 

1 stop it there, you know, correct the 

2 characterization of the response and stop. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. 

4 MR. FARVER: Yes, it just goes back 

5 to how the ambient doses were calculated. 

6 DR. ULSH: Makes sense. 168.5. Mark, 

7 I kind of lost track there before we went to 

8 that issue. On 171.6 I've got that Dr. Poston 

9 sent out information and NIOSH has to consider 

10 that new information. That's the status of 

11 that one. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: About proximity of 

13 building -- just about proximity of buildings 

14 --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. About 

16 proximity of buildings. I said --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Trying to remember 

18 what it --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 

20 had. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean we can dig 

22 this down I guess, we'll have to look at the 

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156 

1 notes with the matrix in front of us. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then I said 

3 NIOSH will consider the impact on the internal 

4 dose. I think that was the question really, 

5 right? 

6 MR. FARVER: From the accident? 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: From the accident. 

8 DR. ULSH: Okay. Then 173.2. I have 

9 that remains a NIOSH action item, right? 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

11 DR. ULSH: Same with 173.3 and .5? 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They are both the 

13 same, yes, all three of those. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I would 

15 characterize .5 a little differently. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Two and three are a 

18 specific question -

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, two and 

20 three are --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Just change the 

22 compensability of the claim. That is a 

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157 

1 specific question. Five's action is a little 

2 different. It says we will review our 

3 response. It is our action but it's a somewhat 

4 different action. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: So if you are just 

7 writing remains a NIOSH action --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm sorry. Yes, 

9 yes, yes. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: If you are just 

11 writing remains a NIOSH action, then we will 

12 refer back to this, then you can just write 

13 remains a NIOSH action. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, what I'm 

15 doing on the matrices when I don't change 

16 anything, I'm leaving them as the 723 action 

17 highlighted. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Yes. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I'm not 

20 changing the words at all. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Perfect. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, so this --

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158 

1 those first two, like Stu said, you are really 

2 checking just to see -- you are in agreement 

3 with the finding, you are just going to check 

4 and see if it affected the compensability. The 

5 other one is --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: The other one is 

7 something about our response, checking if our 

8 response really speaks to the question or 

9 something. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And NIOSH will 

11 review the SC&A response I think, right? Oh 

12 no, review your own response. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it's our own 

14 response --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm not sure we 

17 understood our own response, how it related to 

18 the finding. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, review, 

20 I'll put that, review the original NIOSH 

21 response. Review their own response. 

22 DR. ULSH: Now I have written down 

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159 

1 174.1 but I don't have anything after that. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, we just got 

3 there. 

4 DR. ULSH: Okay. Good. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's where I 

6 left off I think. Okay. 

7 MEMBER MUNN: One question is clear. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: It remains our 

9 action. You can figure out what it is from 

10 reading, I mean as long as --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: We are just going to 

13 --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's pretty 

15 clear. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Going to pull out 

17 the matrix along with our action list, we'll 

18 be able to figure out what our action is. We 

19 don't have to be so complete, I'm sorry --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That one's pretty 

21 clear, I think. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I get cross when I 

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160 

1 get stressed. 

2 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, let's not do that. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm stressed by 

4 getting ready for the Board meeting. Not quite 

5 as bad as Laura yet. It might come to that. 

6 MEMBER MUNN: In time. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, I'm 

8 just -- well I'm not sure when to cut this 

9 off, but we are almost through this matrix but 

10 I've said that before. 175.1. This is SC&A. Oh 

11 well actually I'm not sure if it's been 

12 reworked yet so -- no this is the one that we 

13 said you review the rework. 

14 MR. FARVER: To review the rework. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

16 MR. FARVER: I don't have the 

17 rework. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So NIOSH 

19 will have to provide the reworked case, right? 

20 So this is two that we are going to have kind 

21 of these reworked cases to see how this 

22 evolves. 

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161 

1 MR. FARVER: Well I mentioned that 

2 earlier, that we have this later on coming up 

3 and --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Was this just to 

5 give me a -- just to get my bearings on this -

6 - was it a close case, was it a close 50th 

7 percentile? Scott, do you have that 

8 information on 175? 

9 MR. SIEBERT: I don't have it 

10 immediately available. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's all right. 

12 MS. BEHLING: It's 27 percent. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Twenty-seven 

14 percent. 

15 MEMBER MUNN: Not a cliffhanger in 

16 any case. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Well I 

18 think we still want to follow up on the case 

19 regarding the findings, right, to see if they 

20 were -- yes. 

21 MR. FARVER: Oh this is where 

22 additional records came in afterwards --

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162 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

2 MR. FARVER: after the DR had been 

3 completed. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

5 MR. FARVER: I believe. 

6 MR. SIEBERT: This is finding --

7 claim 175 or findings for 175, right? 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

9 MR. SIEBERT: The rework pulled it 

10 down to 15 percent PoC so --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: So the rework is 

12 done? 

13 MR. SIEBERT: Yes. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Doug, you can just 

15 pull everything off NOCTS. 

16 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Do you have the 

18 claim tracking number? We can provide you, if 

19 you don't have it, we can provide it, once you 

20 have it you can find everything about the 

21 rework in NOCTS. 

22 MR. FARVER: Okay. I'm pretty sure I 

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163 

1 don't have that. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Okay. So we 

3 need to give him a copy. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, and 

5 this may answer these other ones too, I'm not 

6 sure. Yes. I think these are going to carry 

7 through for 175.2 at least and 175.3. Bear 

8 with me. I'm just going to copy and paste my -

9 - okay. So, 176.1 has nothing. I'm up to, oh 

10 the attachments, ah, the attachments. John, 

11 this is where you come in. 

12 DR. MAURO: Yes, we went through all 

13 those. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

15 DR. MAURO: I gave my little story 

16 on each one and I think we left it at that. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let's look at 

18 finding number one. Let's see. Yes, these look 

19 like they -- do you have a separate document 

20 tracking these findings? 

21 DR. MAURO: Yes -- well, on the 

22 tracking system? 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Here's my 

2 suggestion. Why don't we take up the 

3 attachments after lunch, right? 

4 MEMBER MUNN: Excellent suggestion. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Attachment one is 

6 Bridgeport Brass. I know we treated -- I know 

7 SC&A provided a separate document when we were 

8 talking about them but I thought I tracked the 

9 findings in here. I think the reason that 

10 Bridgeport has a 3/22 date in the matrix is 

11 because we had done that in the meeting before 

12 and then we picked up on the next one in July 

13 --

14 DR. MAURO: We did, we actually went 

15 through --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. But I 

17 think these findings -- these actions still 

18 stand for NIOSH. I'm not sure, but -- let's 

19 come back to it, yes. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, these are 

21 essentially AWE Site Profiles. 

22 DR. MAURO: Yes. These are Site 

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1 Profile readings. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly, they 

3 are, right, right. Which is these are these 

4 mini-reviews that we said we would handle here 

5 so. Why don't we pick up on those after lunch? 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think we 

7 have provided anything. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You don't think 

9 there's anything new on those but don't go 

10 through them. We go through them. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think we are 

12 going to make it through the rest of the -- I 

13 think there's three attachments. 

14 DR. MAURO: Yes there's three of 

15 them. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this might be 

17 a good breakpoint anyway and we can come back 

18 and knock that off. 

19 Okay so let's take a break until 

20 one o'clock Eastern Time. We'll reconvene, 

21 finishing the eighth matrix, and then pick up 

22 on -- what did I say I was going to do right 

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1 after lunch -- the QA. The QA. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: We can do some 

3 selection on 14 if you want. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And selection and 

5 we want to cover David's question about the 

6 overarching --

7 Okay. So one o'clock guys. 

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

9 matter went off the record at 12:02 p.m. and 

10 resumed at 1:01 p.m.) 

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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 

2 1:01 p.m. 

3 MR. KATZ: Sounds like someone is 

4 working very hard on their computer right now. 

5 We are picking up someone keypadding like 

6 crazy. So this is the Advisory Board on 

7 Radiation and Worker Health, Dose 

8 Reconstruction Subcommittee. We are 

9 reconvening after lunch. Let me just check and 

10 make sure we have our Board Members on the 

11 line. David and Mike. 

12 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, Ted, it's 

13 Mike. I'm here. 

14 MR. KATZ: Great. 

15 MEMBER GIBSON: And it's sure not me 

16 typing that fast. 

17 MR. KATZ: David, are you with us 

18 again too? 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, he'll 

20 probably join. 

21 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So we --

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1 MR. KATZ: Yes, we can continue. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, we're 

3 continuing on with the eighth matrix and we 

4 are going to pick back up on attachment one 

5 but before we go there, Brant said that he had 

6 some follow up from one of the earlier items 

7 so we will go back to that. 

8 DR. ULSH: Yes, this message was 

9 waiting on me when I came back from lunch. 

10 It's from Liz Brackett, and it relates to item 

11 167, one -- well, 167.5. It's the one where 

12 Doug, you were putting in the input manually 

13 what the coworker --

14 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

15 DR. ULSH: I'm about to forward this 

16 message to you and to Wanda and to Brad 

17 because you are the ones that have CDC email 

18 accounts. I don't. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Does that have to 

20 be CDC or can that go to my other government 

21 email? I don't know what the restrictions are. 

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: It can't go to DOE 

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1 ones? 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: The issue is 

3 protection and transit of the information 

4 because it has to go out to the internet and 

5 then back in from the internet to the other 

6 government system. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine. 

8 Anyway, go ahead and describe it yes. 

9 DR. ULSH: I'll just read the 

10 message that Liz sent. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

12 DR. ULSH: It says the CADW 

13 difference that Doug was talking about for 

14 this case (Y-12 coworker coded values versus 

15 manual entry) is because the coworker intake 

16 rate changes at the end of April 1952. The 

17 CADW entries list only the intake rate on 

18 January 1 of a year but the calculations will 

19 account for the change during the year. It 

20 looks like Doug used the January through April 

21 rate for the entire year when running it 

22 manually, which would overestimate the total 

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1 dose because the intake rate decreases from 

2 7,054.4 dpm per day to 1,844.4 dpm per day on 

3 May 1. 

4 MR. FARVER: It's true. It does. 

5 It's just not apparent from that entry, in 

6 other words it doesn't show it as a variable 

7 in the intake. It shows it as an intake over 

8 the entire period. 

9 DR. MAURO: In the workbook 

10 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

11 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

12 MR. FARVER: Now we understand what 

13 it's doing. 

14 MEMBER MUNN: Just wasn't obvious to 

15 the reader. 

16 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

17 DR. ULSH: So I don't know if that 

18 changes the status on that item or you want to 

19 take it back and consider it or what. 

20 MR. FARVER: I mean that's probably 

21 the reason. In my mind it's closed. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes, yes, I 

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1 think it's closed. 

2 MR. FARVER: I would say that if you 

3 manually entered them and did it through the 

4 correct time periods and changed the intake 

5 accordingly, you should come up with the same 

6 value. 

7 DR. ULSH: So, leave 167.5 closed? 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I just want to 

9 make sure I get that response to capture in 

10 here, though, and send it to my -- send it to 

11 my CDC and I'll get it but --

12 DR. ULSH: Okay. 

13 MR. KATZ: Mark has a CDC account. 

14 He's just locked out of it. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I just haven't 

16 been in it. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll figure out 

18 what to do, talk to the computer guy and see 

19 if there's something we can do. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay now I'm 

21 going to un-highlight that and then we can go 

22 on to attachment one and pick things up from 

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1 there. Okay. So attachment one, Bridgeport 

2 Brass Site, the mini Site Profile reviews, and 

3 these are all outstanding actions from 3/22 so 

4 Stu basically I think you're right that if you 

5 still have these as actions. I'm not going to 

6 modify anything unless you see anything that 

7 needs clarification if you are looking at 

8 them. 

9 MEMBER MUNN: They all look like the 

10 same response except that Mark Griffon needs 

11 additional time to consider the approach of 

12 attachment two, finding three. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, I'm on 

14 attachment one still. All right. So now 

15 Wanda's moving ahead to Harshaw which is 

16 attachment two and yes, it seems like, Stu or 

17 Brant, stop me if you have anything on these 

18 but otherwise I'm going to start on these --

19 the same action and then apparently I have an 

20 action in here too, Wanda is reminding me. 

21 MEMBER MUNN: Just a small needle. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Which one was it? 

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1 Attachment --

2 MEMBER MUNN: Three I believe. 

3 Attachment two, number three, finding three. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh okay. Yes, and 

5 I just to stick with the theme here today, I 

6 didn't do that action either, so. But I still 

7 would want to look at that and we haven't 

8 closed the rest of the profile so I don't feel 

9 so bad. 

10 MEMBER MUNN: No. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I will 

12 remember to do that. It's a radon surrogate 

13 model. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: That would be the 

15 Class for Harshaw? 

16 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Harshaw Class? 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Was the Harshaw 

19 Class -- it wasn't the whole period though, in 

20 there? 

21 DR. MAURO: No, no, it's not. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this still 

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1 applies. 

2 DR. MAURO: Yes, I'd have to look at 

3 it, see what the cutoff is. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Yes. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I'll have to go 

6 look. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But the surrogate 

8 model, you might recall John, what it was 

9 based on? 

10 DR. MAURO: I'd have to look at it. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: You'd have to look 

12 back. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Five, one 

14 action, got that. Okay. Yes I think the rest, 

15 they're the same. Going up to attachment three 

16 is the Huntington plant. So far I see much the 

17 same. Now this finding number four, I don't 

18 know if that's a general question also. This 

19 is the issue of BZAs versus general area air 

20 sampling. Was that a site-specific finding or 

21 was it also just overall? 

22 DR. MAURO: You know, I didn't -- we 

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1 --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I noticed that 

3 this has come up on several things, right? 

4 DR. MAURO: It could be a general 

5 statement where the correlation between 

6 breathing zone and bioassay but I don't think 

7 so. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess I would 

9 just remind, when in doubt, go back to the 

10 original report from SC&A because I -- the 

11 description is not doing it justice. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: The wording of the 

13 finding there looks like it's a general one. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's what 

15 I was thinking when I saw it, you know? 

16 DR. MAURO: These are abbreviated in 

17 the matrix. I'd have to look at it to see what 

18 the heart of it was. Most of these, though, 

19 are very, what I would say, fundamental. That 

20 is you know this is how you did it and I have 

21 a question that's almost a common sense kind 

22 of question, gee that doesn't seem to make 

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1 sense here, and once you guys dive into it, I 

2 think you are going to find it easy to track 

3 and either agree or not agree you know, it's 

4 not going to be anything subtle. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But see a lot of 

6 these -- well you have more information now, 

7 but a lot of these, well all of these I guess, 

8 have no initial NIOSH response either, do 

9 they, or did you respond in the other context? 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: See, I'm trying to 

11 decide because some of these indicated that --

12 we would almost conclude from some of these 

13 that we sent a response. 

14 DR. MAURO: You probably did on the 

15 case. Remember, we do two things. We have 

16 actual real cases where we reviewed the case 

17 and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of 

18 the issues that we discussed in the previous 

19 set, you know, the set of -- previously there 

20 were certainly Harshaw cases. They were 

21 Bridgeport Brass cases. And they are all based 

22 on the Site Profile, so it's a logical step 

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1 and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we have 

2 already discussed a lot of the issues, so 

3 that's where they come from. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's where 

5 they came from. That's why we added this on. 

6 DR. MAURO: Right. Yes. But what I 

7 tried to do here is --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They are tagged 

9 back to the first -- I think it's the first 

10 cases listed in the matrix, right. 

11 DR. MAURO: And maybe before. What I 

12 tried to do here is broaden it because you 

13 have to realize, when we do a case, when I do 

14 a case for say Bridgeport Brass, it is a 

15 particular organ, a particular person, it may 

16 have been in one of the facilities, remember, 

17 I think at Bridgeport Brass there was a couple 

18 of them, Havens facility, and another one, 

19 Adrian Plant, I think. 

20 And so what happens is when I do a 

21 real case, it really does a disservice to call 

22 the -- and even though when I do the case I 

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1 have to review the Site Profile. So I'm like a 

2 lot of -- the Site Profile is the rock that 

3 most of these AWE cases stand on. But when I 

4 review the case, I only review the Site 

5 Profile to the extent I need to review it, for 

6 that case. 

7 So the reason Mark asked -- we had 

8 a lot of cases from Bridgeport Brass you know, 

9 et cetera, and he said listen, and you know, 

10 and they are slipping -- we are not doing them 

11 in Site Profiles. So let's see what we can do 

12 here. That's how the genesis of this was. 

13 So then what I did was when I 

14 reviewed this -- I would not consider it a 

15 full-blown Site Profile by any means. But I 

16 try to cover the waterfront on all of the 

17 external, the internal, how -- where the data 

18 came from, the validity of the data. 

19 Now for example there are no 

20 interviews. We didn't do any data capture the 

21 way we do with -- so it's really an 

22 abbreviated Site Profile, where I use my 

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1 judgment on what I am going to look at, 

2 because I thought this was important. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's a 

4 little more of a drill down into some of the 

5 basis of some of these things. 

6 DR. MAURO: Yes, does it ring true? 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

8 DR. MAURO: I have a few -- still 

9 have to come back to me, some of the examples, 

10 but when you fine folks jump into it you're 

11 going to find it's something you are going to 

12 be able to move through pretty quickly. You 

13 are going to either say yes he's right or no 

14 he's wrong. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe we 

16 actually have some responses out for a couple 

17 of these. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. That's 

19 what I am -- yes. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: And we can put them 

21 in the matrix. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If you do, what I 

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1 was going to say, why don't you email me the 

2 responses and then I can cut and paste because 

3 otherwise we are going to have two versions of 

4 the matrix --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Sounds great. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Going on. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Even better. 

8 MS. BEHLING: Excuse me, Mark, this 

9 is Kathy Behling. I do have some notes on 

10 attachment one which was the Bridgeport Brass 

11 and I believe, based on what I have written 

12 here, that NIOSH initially did respond to our 

13 findings on January 26, 2009 and then we wrote 

14 a White Paper thereafter and I know Hans and 

15 Harry Chmelynski had presented a response to 

16 their initial response at the 3/22, the March 

17 22 meeting, 2010. 

18 So if NIOSH wants to go back, 

19 January 26 we hear an initial response and 

20 then we discuss it again back on 3/22, 2010. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And this is for -

22 -

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1 MS. BEHLING: For Bridgeport Brass, 

2 attachment one. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I also see 

4 something here in my folder, says draft 

5 response to SC&A, comments on Harshaw TBD. So 

6 that would be -

7 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what we sent 

8 -- that would be what I have. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, there's other 

10 --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: So that's a Harshaw 

12 and there's some for Bridgeport. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Right. So 

14 with -- yes that's fine. If I could ask you 

15 Stu to boil these down --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh okay. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I have 

18 them. Maybe I can try to summarize in the 

19 matrix. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I think there's kind 

21 of a response paragraph in there. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There is. I just 

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1 don't want it to be this long. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we've done 

3 those on others. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know, I know. 

5 All right. I'll try to -- I'll take it. I've 

6 got the one for Harshaw. I'm not sure I have 

7 the one that Kathy is referencing. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I can send it. 

9 I'll send it to you. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What's the title 

11 of that? 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: The title of that 

13 one is --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is it eighth 

15 matrix Bridgeport Brass TBD? Maybe I do have 

16 it. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that's what it 

18 was. Eighth case matrix Bridgeport Brass. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, so you just 

20 pulled out that part of the matrix. So I have 

21 that. So I'll roll that all together. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, all right. And 

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1 then the Harshaw actually has the finding and 

2 then a paragraph --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's more of a 

4 written report, right, right, not a matrix. 

5 Okay. I'll pull those together into the set 

6 and then you can -- so. 

7 MEMBER MUNN: All that November 

8 stuff. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The actions 

10 remain the same. I'll just clean up the matrix 

11 to reflect the work that has been done 

12 already. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: And the White Paper. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What's the other 

15 thing you have on there? 

16 MEMBER MUNN: The White Paper, it 

17 was a part of the zip file that came with 

18 Bridgeport and the first 20 cases. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh is that White 

20 Paper Harshaw TBD review? 

21 MEMBER MUNN: I have it sent in 

22 November last year. It's a 28-page White 

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1 Paper. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that is for 

3 Harshaw, right? 

4 MEMBER MUNN: Harshaw. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is that the SC&A? 

6 MEMBER MUNN: SC&A. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes, yes. So 

8 that's the SC&A review --

9 MEMBER MUNN: Right. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: which you call 

11 the White Paper for some reason in this case. 

12 And they also sent a Bridgeport review. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

15 DR. ULSH: So for those two, we have 

16 provided initial responses and SC&A has 

17 responded to those so now it's back in our 

18 court. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

20 DR. ULSH: And then for the --

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll put your 

22 initial responses into the big matrix. 

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1 DR. ULSH: Okay. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

3 DR. ULSH: And then for the others 

4 we have not yet provided an initial response. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't see any, 

6 unless you know of any. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I only know of those 

8 two -

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Bridgeport Brass and 

11 Harshaw. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, so I think 

13 for the other Huntington and -- Huntington, 

14 yes, there's only three. 

15 DR. ULSH: So, it was Huntington, 

16 attachment three? 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That should 

18 do it. And all the actions remain the same I 

19 think. Anything else on that? 

20 Okay I think we can move on to the 

21 other items on the schedule. I have the 

22 discussion of the Quality Assurance 

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1 objectives, selecting the 14th set of cases as 

2 the next two things. 

3 So I just -- I actually, you 

4 probably emailed this a while ago but I 

5 obviously -- so people on the phone have a 

6 copy of this? 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Mike and David will 

8 not. We didn't have an email -

9 MR. KATZ: Yes, we don't have a CDC 

10 email for them. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I was concerned 

12 about the Privacy Act issue on this because we 

13 didn't look through it -- I don't think 

14 there's any Privacy Act issue but we don't 

15 know for sure. We haven't had it reviewed. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, we are not 

17 going to read it into the record or anything -

18 -

19 MR. HINNEFELD: No, I mean, we can 

20 talk about it but in terms of sending it to 

21 non-government emails --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I got it. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So I couldn't -- we 

2 didn't send that. Now the actual selection 

3 list, that was -- we don't have to worry about 

4 Privacy Act because that has been vetted many 

5 times in that form, so that, we don't --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you have that, 

7 did you get a chance to --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Let me think back, 

9 now that I'm thinking about that, let me go do 

10 that now. See what they --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I did not --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You need to --

14 MR. KATZ: How many copies --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: For this 

16 discussion that was what I was wondering, yes 

17 --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I should 

19 probably be here for the discussion. 

20 MR. KATZ: Let me take care of that. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mike and David, I 

22 don't know if you have joined us yet, again. 

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1 David, is --

2 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I'm here Mark. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, hi. Mike. 

4 That's Mike. Okay. So this is -- so as you 

5 heard, you won't be looking at this document. 

6 We just got it. I just got it today. This is 

7 the NIOSH review of the QA issues from the 

8 claims reviewed by SC&A so from those first --

9 it was a little over 100. I think we went to a 

10 bigger set of cases, right Stu? 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Actually, there was 

12 a set of 100. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Then there was a 

15 smaller set that we did our --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I thought you 

17 picked it initially from a larger subset of 

18 150 -- it went through the eighth set I 

19 thought. 

20 MR. FARVER: 110 or something, yes, 

21 it might have been gone through the eighth 

22 set. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes, because 

2 we expanded it so we had more to pick from, 

3 basically. Anyway it is all those QA findings, 

4 SC&A selected some that we wanted to sort of 

5 track back to see what the sort of root cause 

6 was of why these mistakes were made and NIOSH 

7 did a -- and this is an initial cut at that, 

8 is that what --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I'll let Stu 

11 describe it, yes. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Let me give you a 

13 little pedigree on this. We haven't had this 

14 very long and so we didn't really vet it much. 

15 But because we wanted to get it to the 

16 Subcommittee for the purposes of discussion 

17 and checking out expectations. Now I have 

18 hardly, to be honest with you, hardly looked 

19 at it. There is supposed to be in here some 

20 sort of discussion of what would you do to 

21 prevent this in the future and I'm not -- you 

22 know, some of these may not lend themselves to 

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1 that very well, but there is supposed to be 

2 some sort of thing like that in here. 

3 In any case, whenever you start 

4 down this pathway of doing a deficiency report 

5 and then a disposition report, one of the 

6 things you have to worry about is if I do 

7 this, is the amount of effort it would take me 

8 to put a system in place to prevent this error 

9 worth saving errors of this sort? 

10 So that's going to have to be part 

11 of the decision as well. We haven't really 

12 gone very far down that path. It's a sort of a 

13 -- an evolving thing and so this, chances are, 

14 will be part of a broader, quality assurance 

15 question, which is probably going to get 

16 handed to us as part of the 10-year program 

17 review anyway. 

18 So it's going to be part of -- it's 

19 sort of an early effort, a work that we expect 

20 to be evolving as we go forward. So that's 

21 kind of the background here. And we have not, 

22 in the office, vetted it very thoroughly and 

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1 so we made sure we put a disclaimer on it 

2 about this being a draft document or a working 

3 document. We didn't put a draft watermark on 

4 it or anything, but it's still fairly 

5 preliminary. 

6 If you would like I can start 

7 through these. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I wouldn't 

9 mind -- well, either that or --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I think it 

11 might be helpful -

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Maybe --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: The first finding is 

14 that an error was made in the data entry for 

15 an IMBA run which grossly overestimated the 

16 internal alpha dose and this had to do with 

17 the TBD stated annual intake of uranium, is 

18 what the intake is, is 1,400 picocuries per 

19 year. But there were two mistakes apparently 

20 in entering. One was an order of magnitude too 

21 high in the number and then choosing 

22 picocuries per day as the entry instead of 

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1 picocuries per year and so it's just a huge, 

2 huge overestimate. 

3 Now you would think you would see 

4 that, you would think you would notice that, 

5 you know, the dose reconstructor would make 

6 it, or the peer reviewer wouldn't it, and this 

7 just says, well, it was a mistake and the DR 

8 shouldn't have made the mistake. He knew 

9 better, or she knew better, and the peer 

10 reviewer should have caught it. 

11 The peer reviewer's instructions do 

12 not specifically say make sure the IMBA intake 

13 value is correct. It doesn't say that line on 

14 the review procedure where it tells the peer 

15 reviewer what to do, but it does say make sure 

16 the tools are checked, all tools in the 

17 assessment, of which IMBA would be one. 

18 So again, it's a matter of probably 

19 a careless mistake on the part of the dose 

20 reconstructor and perhaps a mistake because of 

21 time constraints on the part of the peer 

22 reviewer. I think to really go much further 

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1 it's going to take a little more discussion on 

2 our side. I don't know that the Board needs to 

3 talk about it that much, but it's going to be 

4 more a discussion on our side about are we 

5 expecting too much of somebody. 

6 Well, I mean you could go further 

7 down this path. Did the dose reconstructor, 

8 did they know how to use IMBA well enough? 

9 Were they accomplished enough in IMBA or did 

10 the part of units per day is just part of 

11 using IMBA that they were unfamiliar with and 

12 just didn't check off, change from the 

13 default. 

14 That's one -- I mean, you can 

15 examine further the knowledge of the dose 

16 reconstructor and you can examine further the 

17 specificity of instruction to the dose 

18 reconstructor and to the peer reviewer. I'm 

19 not sure there's a lot of ground to go there, 

20 a lot of gain to be made in that. Doug, I 

21 don't know what you would think about 

22 something like that? 

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1 MR. FARVER: Oh, my concern is why 

2 wasn't it caught --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

4 MR. FARVER: And how can you catch 

5 it in the future, would be the only thing. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Especially when 

7 it appears to me this would be a -- it's a big 

8 overestimate, right? 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: It's not just a tiny 

10 --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And the problem here 

13 is, you know, this one was in the high 

14 direction. What happens if somebody makes the 

15 same mistake in the low direction? 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, that's the 

18 problem. 

19 MR. FARVER: You know, the one thing 

20 that comes to mind is -- I don't know what the 

21 DR report says but it actually say that it is 

22 supposed to be 1,400 picocuries per year, then 

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1 someone reviewing the DR report should review 

2 the actual calculation and say oh, it's not 

3 picocuries per year at all, it's off by a 

4 factor of 10. You know, if that value is 

5 actually in the DR report which it may or may 

6 not be. That way it could be caught. 

7 DR. MAURO: One of the things that 

8 happens when you go to a tool. You see, you 

9 are building a machine that's trying to put I 

10 don't know how many a week, trying to move 

11 these things out. I have the luxury to sit 

12 back and think about what is it that they are 

13 doing here. And it is a luxury. So I'm trying 

14 to get to a root cause thing, what do you do 

15 to fix something like this? 

16 There is the machine that is going 

17 in check, check, check, check, check, check, 

18 but then there's this other thing where you 

19 have to say well, does this make sense and 

20 that's what I do. I just ask myself. I don't 

21 go into these workbooks the way a lot of our 

22 crew does. I do something different. It 

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1 doesn't take long when you ask yourself --

2 this is a classic problem that may not be 

3 caught when you are inside the machinery. It's 

4 caught when you are not, you know, I'm just 

5 giving you an observation. 

6 So one of the things I guess I 

7 think is very important, whenever we do our 

8 work and you are in the same boat we are in, 

9 is you have got to sort of step outside of the 

10 thing and ask yourself some common sense 

11 questions about what -- does it look like it 

12 makes sense? And that's not easy to do yet. 

13 Anyway, I don't know if that helps. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, that did 

15 have -- I mean from my new job, I tend to 

16 think that just blaming -- not blaming, but 

17 just pointing out that the worker made an 

18 error isn't really getting at the root of the 

19 problem. Right. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I agree. I was 

21 taught the same thing. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So the question 

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1 then is like, you know, because I can see a 

2 situation where not only is the -- you said 

3 inside the machinery but also the peer 

4 reviewers may have so many peer reviews to do, 

5 that you know, because I'm thinking well how 

6 could -- like Doug, how could this get through 

7 the layers, you know, you have sort of these 

8 layers to sort of catch those mistakes or 

9 catch those or if the first dose reconstructor 

10 doesn't flag it then the peer review will. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: This is the reason I 

12 think that this needs really individual 

13 discussion from our side and the ORAU people 

14 who do these things about what exactly, 

15 because it's not clear to me what exactly the 

16 peer reviewers see. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Not clear to me the 

19 peer reviewer sees a finished dose 

20 reconstruction report, with the verbiage in it 

21 and everything. So to me there's a lot more 

22 knowledge of the intricate details of the work 

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1 process that are required in order to fix the 

2 details of the work process. 

3 MR. FARVER: Whoever is signing off 

4 on the front page of that DR report should 

5 have reviewed it. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Should know. It 

7 should say I agree this is right. Your 

8 signature can always be --

9 MR. FARVER: Really probably the 

10 only way you are going to catch this is if 

11 this is actually stated in the DR report that 

12 it should be so much per year. Then you have a 

13 chance of catching it. 

14 MEMBER MUNN: Then the reviewer 

15 should know. 

16 MR. FARVER: Should compare this 

17 with this and say oh, they are different. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, but there's 

19 sometimes just a reality check so someone 

20 saying wow, that's a huge intake, you know --

21 MR. FARVER: That can work too. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That real -- I 

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1 know we do a lot of overestimates so that 

2 makes it tricky because you know --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: You would think 

4 somebody would have said wow, that dose 

5 intake? 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

7 right. 

8 MR. FARVER: I do it by hand. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I think we 

10 are going to run into this a lot and the 

11 trouble will be --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I think every one --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: peer review 

14 question, right. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I think every one, 

16 if you really want to do a serious evaluation 

17 of -- because if you're looking about why do 

18 things break, why did it not work, you need to 

19 have a pretty good understanding of the work 

20 process. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: And to do that we 

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1 are going to get a better understanding o the 

2 work process to do that and this may be -- I 

3 mean a project like that may be for a handful 

4 of claims. That might be an all-day meeting if 

5 we were going to do it in this group, or it 

6 might be just, more conveniently, us going 

7 back to ORAU in our world and when we can do 

8 it --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I would ask that 

10 you go back to ORAU but then come back to us 

11 with a presentation --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: Absolutely. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Of the work 

15 process, you know. 

16 MR. FARVER: I just -- I sit on a 

17 commission in New Jersey that is looking it --

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Are you a county 

19 commissioner? 

20 DR. MAURO: No, I'm not a county 

21 commissioner. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That was a 

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1 lunchtime joke. Sorry. 

2 DR. MAURO: We sit around a table 

3 like this and right now the big ticket item --

4 I don't know if you know this, some very, very 

5 serious problems with radiotherapy. People go 

6 in to get radiotherapy on a tumor and mistakes 

7 are being made. And this goes -- and the 

8 reason for the problem is everything is 

9 computerized and there's a very, very, very 

10 sophisticated machinery in place and they have 

11 got an army of technicians and other folks, 

12 physicians, going inside and they run the 

13 machine. 

14 And I asked the question, well is 

15 anybody sitting -- is there anybody watching 

16 the store from the bigger picture before the 

17 person goes in, wait a minute, what are we 

18 doing here, does it all make sense? I'm not 

19 saying you're doing this, but what I'm getting 

20 at is this is a classic big problem. This is 

21 where the big mistakes are made. 

22 You know when we catch, they didn't 

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1 have -- instead of 26 zeroes there are 28 

2 zeroes, you know, that's -- you know, you have 

3 to catch that. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes, I think 

5 this is -- I don't mean to cut in on you but 

6 this is, sort of Stu's point is, if I can give 

7 the -- this is nice because I'm using some of 

8 the new stuff --

9 DR. MAURO: Oh is that right? 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Everything we are 

11 looking at on the Chemical Safety Board is 

12 high risk, low probability, so this is sort of 

13 high risk situation --

14 DR. MAURO: Exactly and more 

15 probability. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And in this 

17 instance it's sort of the technology getting 

18 ahead of the workplace management, how to 

19 handle this, how to handle the technology. 

20 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think we 

22 really have this with the --

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1 DR. MAURO: No. No. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Same type of 

3 thing, but to look at one thing we have to try 

4 to be able to tease out is how can NIOSH catch 

5 the bigger ones but some of the littler ones, 

6 like Stu is saying, how much investment do you 

7 make to catch every little error versus just 

8 catching them -- if you don't want to make big 

9 mistakes, can we accept little mistakes, I 

10 guess is what I'm trying to say, and where's 

11 that -- how can we make that distinction? 

12 MEMBER MUNN: Well then you can't 

13 draw a line. It's always going to be --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

15 right, yes 

16 MEMBER MUNN: But the second part of 

17 this question, which is at least as important 

18 and maybe even more important ultimately than 

19 the one we have before us is, are these types 

20 of oversights still occurring? Or was this an 

21 artifact of the early days and this particular 

22 -- and/or this particular site that we were 

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1 looking at? You have a case where we have 

2 found this problem. Now is this a repetitive 

3 problem --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, you mean the 

5 bigger ones. I mean, the QA issues continue to 

6 be, now the magnitude of them is right, I'm 

7 not sure how many are -- a lot of them we 

8 catch are smaller, right, don't you agree, 

9 Stu, I mean Doug? 

10 MR. FARVER: They may be small for 

11 the case we look at. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

13 MEMBER POSTON: Maybe I'm -- many 

14 years ago I went through this training before 

15 I got -- I know how the dose reconstructors 

16 are supposed to do this stuff and in the old 

17 days, maybe it's changed, there was always a 

18 peer review that was done and I know a lot o 

19 times those dose reconstructions would go back 

20 to the person who did it and say you forgot to 

21 do this or you ought to do that, and where is 

22 this system broken? Is it because it is -

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, that's why 

2 I think we need --

3 MEMBER POSTON: More and more 

4 computerized and so people are trusting the 

5 computers? I mean, that's a real fallacy to 

6 think the computer is going to tell you the 

7 right answer. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You see I think 

9 that's what we need to -- at least I think the 

10 best way forward is to let NIOSH go back to 

11 ORAU and get a good understanding and present 

12 it to us as a Subcommittee I think first, 

13 unless you think it should go to the full 

14 Board, of the work process. What exactly 

15 happened? How did the peer reviewers do it? 

16 What do the peer reviewers do because we have 

17 a general impression and I've seen the 

18 checklist but -

19 MEMBER POSTON: But I had another 

20 question at a higher level, are there 

21 documents that show that these computer codes 

22 and so on have been verified and validated? 

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1 Where are the V&V documents that we used to 

2 have on every one of these codes? 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

4 MEMBER POSTON: Nowadays people 

5 write computer codes and they start using 

6 them. Back when I was a pup we actually sat 

7 down and made hand calculations to make sure 

8 that every part of that code worked. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

10 MEMBER POSTON: And so we ought to 

11 have some validation documents that would show 

12 that these things are working. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know for IMBA, 

14 you guys -- you went through this, didn't you, 

15 with IMBA? I don't know where it stands but 

16 the question was raised, yes. 

17 MEMBER POSTON: Wait. I don't feel 

18 strongly about this. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 DR. ULSH: Maybe I'm missing 

21 something here because I'm just reading what 

22 it says here. What it says happened this was, 

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1 this two typographical errors, that the dose 

2 reconstructor made two errors in entering into 

3 IMBA. The order of magnitude was too high and 

4 he chose picocuries per day instead of 

5 picocuries per year. Now that doesn't say to 

6 me that that's a problem in the tool or the 

7 computer code. That's a problem in the dose 

8 reconstructor man. 

9 DR. MAURO: That's true. That's 

10 true. In this case, yes. 

11 DR. ULSH: And -- well, you look at 

12 it from -- in terms of impact on PoC, it's a 

13 big problem, I mean it's a big issue. But if 

14 you look at it from a dose reconstructor's 

15 standpoint, someone who is putting out however 

16 many DRs a day, this is a situation where a 

17 small error had a big impact. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

19 DR. ULSH: So, these are going to be 

20 the most challenging types of issues, where if 

21 I type picocuries per day instead of 

22 picocuries per year, that's a big impact, but 

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1 in terms of a glaring, easy to detect error, 

2 unless you do what John said and take a step 

3 back, it's going to be hard to detect. But I 

4 don't see that this is a consequence of things 

5 getting too computerized. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Maybe not. I 

7 don't know what the red flags are yet, but I 

8 think the more troubling -- we've all said 

9 this -- that the more troubling thing in this 

10 case is not that they mis-keyed something, I 

11 mean that can happen to anyone, but that it 

12 went through at least one peer review after 

13 this, you know. 

14 DR. ULSH: And please understand, 

15 I'm not saying --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's the 

17 question. It's the system, more -- yes. Yes. 

18 DR. ULSH: I'm not saying that it's 

19 not something that you should correct. I'm not 

20 saying that at all. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think John's 

22 raising another issue, which may be a separate 

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1 issue, but you know --

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: But it has been an 

3 issue that has come to the table numerous 

4 times. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

6 MEMBER CLAWSON: Is feeding -- we 

7 are feeding all of this in and I have to laugh 

8 because my wife just started back into school 

9 and her teacher is frustrated because she does 

10 everything long-hand. She says, that's what 

11 the computer is here for and she says yes, but 

12 when I screw up I can't see what I did wrong 

13 in the computer program. And this is part of 

14 the checks and balances of the process, I 

15 think that people don't understand is, you 

16 have a computer system, works great, but how 

17 do we know what's going on in there, and 

18 that's just a check back. 

19 We have in the process that I work 

20 out out there, we have to validate our system 

21 monthly because there gets to be glitches in 

22 there, there gets to be bugs. We have to check 

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1 our -- can't really talk about what -- but it 

2 makes sure our system that we are feeding you 

3 information into checks out. Every month we 

4 have a program check, and this is kind of what 

5 I think some of that frustration -- what 

6 people are looking at because we can't see 

7 what's happened, we can't go wrong, and then 

8 you get into the peer reviews of where did we 

9 pass this, how did this get past? 

10 MEMBER POSTON: I agree with what --

11 I probably overreacted. But I think there are 

12 two issues. One of them is data entry and 

13 checking, the other is to know that the codes 

14 are doing them right, and I don't know, no one 

15 has told me, oh we got V&V data, no one has 

16 told me that, so if they told me that I would 

17 be quiet about that. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: IMBA's got a 

19 verification and IREP has a verification. 

20 There are workbooks that we use, there's some 

21 verification work done before it is put into 

22 place. Now, do I know specifically what it is? 

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1 No, but I could find out because all those 

2 workbooks are verified, okay, it's doing what 

3 we think it should do before it goes do the 

4 work. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, the other 

6 check on the workbooks is quite frankly our 

7 process, I mean, when we do the procedures 

8 review, we are doing the workbook reviews. 

9 It's a point in time, I agree, because they 

10 evolve, but we are at least looking at that to 

11 some extent, but internally --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: That's all done, I 

13 mean it is done for IMBA and it's done for 

14 IREP. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, but John's 

16 right, we haven't seen, we haven't --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: No, but I think IREP 

18 might be on the web. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: True. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: It's available, 

21 validation and verification is on the website. 

22 DR. MAURO: Oh, no --

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1 MEMBER RICHARDSON: This is David. 

2 Those are two great points about verification 

3 of the software and verification of the data 

4 entry process, and I've been leaning towards 

5 thinking about the latter although I think the 

6 former is important and I think IMBA's has 

7 more independent users than the NIOSH version 

8 of IREP does so IMBA's probably been verified 

9 by BNFL and other people who are also using 

10 it. 

11 IREP, I mean, we say we are 

12 verifying IREP through this process but we are 

13 not really. I mean I think there's -- nobody 

14 has independently tried to derive that. I 

15 can't. I've tried to dig into it some. I can't 

16 move very far forward in kind of taking it 

17 apart and trying to independently derive those 

18 posterior Probability of Causations that it is 

19 spitting out, so that's an open question to 

20 me. 

21 But for the question about 

22 verifying the data entry, I mean, here we are 

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1 focused on one situation where it had a big 

2 consequence, but going through the seventh and 

3 eighth matrix, I have written down whole 

4 series of places where there were what I would 

5 consider data entry errors, like 125.7, maybe 

6 154.1 and 155.5, and the thing that is 

7 concerning to me is that this is a like is it 

8 a 0.3 percent sample? I mean, like 100 records 

9 out of how many thousands? 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's why 

11 we are saying, it's a small sample and that's 

12 why, even though these are minor, if you think 

13 that it's happening over the whole population 

14 of these --

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, but I mean 

16 I would, like documenting 15, 20 key punch 

17 errors in a 0.3 percent sample means, if you 

18 weight that up --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

20 MEMBER RICHARDSON: That's tens of 

21 thousands of key punch errors. That is a big 

22 flag to raise and it seems like that's -- as 

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1 one part of Program Evaluation, this is 

2 something that is kind of reproducibility that 

3 if two people type in the same information, a 

4 minimum criteria for reproduecability would be 

5 that they typed that into a spreadsheet and 

6 you are going to have the same values. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

8 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So I don't know, 

9 I --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, no. you raise 

11 a good point. I think, I mean, I don't know, 

12 David, how you feel but my proposal was to 

13 have NIOSH take these back because we are just 

14 looking at these live and you don't have them 

15 in front of you, I don't think. 

16 MEMBER RICHARDSON: No. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. So, what they 

18 have provided us is these descriptions going 

19 back to each individual case that we asked to 

20 look into further, but without understanding 

21 the ORAU process, you know, what they do in 

22 terms of peer reviews -- more of the specifics 

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1 of the work process, it's hard to really dig 

2 much deeper than yes, there was an entry error 

3 here, you know, and why didn't the peer review 

4 catch it? Well, we don't really know. Well, 

5 what does the peer review exactly do? 

6 So I think that's where I'm sort of 

7 -- I don't mean to end this discussion now but 

8 I mean that's one thing, at least, that I 

9 think NIOSH, it would be good for me to know. 

10 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So aside from 

11 this, what we are doing, there's not a 

12 standard process of double entry of data for 

13 kind of the fundamental data entry? 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the dose 

15 reconstructor, when the dose reconstructor 

16 enters data into something, there is not. When 

17 -- before the dose reconstructor even gets a 

18 case file, the DOE exposure record is coded 

19 onto essentially a cell, a spreadsheet, so and 

20 that is dual coded. I believe that's the QC, 

21 but that does have data -- the kinds of 

22 traditional data entry QC you would expect. 

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1 Now from, now that file then goes 

2 to a dose reconstructor for interpretation 

3 into a dose reconstruction report, either 

4 using IMBA or CADW or whatever tools the dose 

5 reconstructor uses. That dose reconstructor's 

6 work of entry is not QC'd, is not double coded 

7 QC, they don't put a second person down there 

8 to do the dose reconstruction again. A peer 

9 review --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sometimes they 

11 will have the manual entry, they wouldn't just 

12 input those numbers necessarily. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I think -- I don't 

14 know. Scott may be able to speak up here. I 

15 think it's going to depend on what tool they 

16 have available to use at what point. 

17 MR. SIEBERT: I'm also going to jump 

18 in Stu. I'm not 100 percent sure that we are 

19 doing double key entry for the external 

20 records. We'd have to check with that. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay so may not be 

22 double entering. Okay. 

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218 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anyway, those 

2 specifics would be good to have, to come back 

3 to us with so we know exactly what is 

4 happening. 

5 DR. MAURO: Say, I got something to 

6 bring up that could be very important. It has 

7 to do with spreadsheets. I had a very large 

8 contract, with the Nuclear Regulatory 

9 Commission many years ago where we started off 

10 using spreadsheets to build the simulation. 

11 The spreadsheets got bigger and bigger, more 

12 and more complex, more and more sophisticated. 

13 You reach a point with spreadsheets where you 

14 cannot catch the errors. You cannot catch 

15 them. We moved to Fortran, we just abandoned 

16 the whole spreadsheets approach and went to 

17 Fortran, which is readily QA-able, in other 

18 words, Fortran is a do-loop 

19 Spreadsheets, especially when they 

20 are a little ad hoc, I could imagine some of 

21 you folks say well I have got to fix this and 

22 they would be a little bit -- and do something 

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1 to the spreadsheet on the go to deal with a 

2 particular circumstances. It becomes --

3 there's a point -- I'm just, believe me, I 

4 have been through this and I have seen it 

5 happen -- this project stopped in its tracks 

6 because we could not catch all the errors. The 

7 spreadsheets became unwieldy, impossible to 

8 check and we didn't even know if we were 

9 making any mistakes. We just abandoned the 

10 whole thing and in no time, we had our folks 

11 convert everything to Fortran. Fortran is very 

12 tractable through QA, QC process, 

13 conventional, this has to do with the nuclear 

14 safety issues, and you do not want to use a 

15 spreadsheet at some point. 

16 Now I don't know how big these 

17 things are but I've seen some spreadsheets 

18 that have come out of this thing that are 

19 enormous. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, these 

21 workbooks can be really --

22 DR. MAURO: And let me tell you 

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1 something, you are not going to -- it is 

2 extremely difficult to ensure quality when you 

3 get to a certain point with the complexity of 

4 a spreadsheet. This is an observation that I 

5 have. 

6 MR. KATZ: It seems like we have two 

7 action items here, one for DCAS to develop a 

8 presentation to the DR Subcommittee on the 

9 whole DR process so that you can get into the 

10 QA bit, and a second is for a DCAS 

11 presentation on whatever, it doesn't sound 

12 like it would be extensive, but on what is 

13 done in terms of workbook validation when it 

14 is developed. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

16 MR. FARVER: Well we do find 

17 workbook errors. It's an error in how the 

18 workbook is built. In this case this was just 

19 a --

20 DR. MAURO: Oh, no. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

22 right. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I understand. 

2 Absolutely, absolutely. 

3 DR. MAURO: We entered into a thing 

4 where -- I lived through this and I know, 

5 these things get too big. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And you dated 

7 yourself a little bit with Fortran there John. 

8 DR. MAURO: I didn't do it -- that's 

9 how we fixed it though, and it wasn't that 

10 long ago. And it fixed it. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: You are not alone. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It is, yes. Okay, 

13 Stu, can I ask, are there any -- what I was 

14 going to ask is, out of these, you're more 

15 familiar with them than I --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, only barely. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Are there are any 

18 that we should be aware of? I mean, just for 

19 the sake of example here, we can go into them 

20 more later when you come back, but -

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know that I 

22 have enough -- I am familiar enough to really 

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1 comment on very much. 

2 DR. ULSH: I would propose that --

3 well, this may be getting above my station, 

4 but I would propose that NIOSH go back and do 

5 these two action items and that will also give 

6 the Subcommittee time to look at this --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Look at this, 

8 yes. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: If you would like, 

10 we will go through them and we will say okay, 

11 here's one that we think is particularly -

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Although to be 

14 honest to Richard's point, the data entry 

15 situation -- in this case we had mistake that 

16 was easy to make, it was a data entry mistake, 

17 not a big consequence. Okay, going back to my 

18 safety manager days, the idea was that you 

19 wanted to design you work process so that the 

20 everyday mistakes that people are going to 

21 make don't have a big consequence. 

22 So that's the kind of situation we 

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1 are in here, is how do we avoid the easy to 

2 make mistakes, how do we avoid a big 

3 consequence associated with the say to make 

4 mistakes, or what do we have to do especially 

5 to make sure that these easy to make mistakes 

6 don't carry through the process and have a big 

7 consequence. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

9 MR. FARVER: Well, if you just take 

10 a look at the last page, 158, 155.8, and even 

11 the one above that, 155.5. Look at finding 

12 155.8, failed to assign environmental tritium 

13 dose and you can read through the response, 

14 but the peer review procedure was in place 

15 about two months prior and it does include 

16 checklist for internal environmental dose 

17 assessment, you know, is it correct, 

18 appropriate assessment. 

19 So that probably should have been 

20 caught on that peer review. And then the one 

21 above that is another data entry error where 

22 the value is off by a factor of 10, an order 

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1 of magnitude high because they entered a 

2 bioassay value that was incorrect. 

3 So these errors just keep on. So 

4 anyway, but the last one was the one that 

5 caught my eye there. 

6 MEMBER MUNN: There's no way we can 

7 note these kinds of errors. The question is, 

8 how can we catch them? 

9 MR. FARVER: Yes, agreed. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How can you flag 

11 the ones that have bigger consequences, which 

12 is a trickier question. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm not sure you can 

14 do that. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know, I'm not 

16 sure either. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Whatever process --

18 we are talking about data entry here which is 

19 kind of a theme on a lot of these, stuff 

20 didn't get added that should have been put in, 

21 some if it where the wrong values were put in, 

22 some of the things weren't put in that should 

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1 have been put in. You're talking about that, 

2 there's no way to prejudge which one, you will 

3 only look for the ones that are important I 

4 don't think. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I'm not -- I 

6 offer that --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know of any. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: that's what we'd 

9 like to answer but I'm not sure how they --

10 DR. MAURO: Every single one of 

11 these dose reconstructions, you could create a 

12 very sophisticated, very accurate protocol, 

13 with the workbook. I'll tell you right now, 

14 when we were doing the blind dose 

15 reconstruction, we broke it up into two 

16 groups. One person that was going to do the 

17 real, heavy lifting, detailed workbook work 

18 and my job was to do it by hand and I said 

19 listen, I don't care about the details. I am 

20 just going to look at something. Let me see 

21 what the -- oh here's the bioassay results? 

22 I'm not going to do a curve fit on IMBA, I'm 

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1 going to look at the bioassay results and see 

2 where they're coming in. 

3 So okay, what seems to make sense, 

4 what would give you that? I was not looking 

5 for a level of precision. I was looking for 

6 does it seem to make sense? I have to say 

7 this. I think a lot of folks forget just to 

8 sit down and say wait a minute, does this seem 

9 to make sense? In 15 minutes, you could see 

10 whether or not this thing is within a factor 

11 of two. My rule is that when I'm checking 

12 something, if I come within a factor of two, 

13 it's probably right. And you catch these big 

14 ones fast. Anyway --

15 MR. KATZ: So that's a procedure 

16 that a peer reviewer might use for example as 

17 a way to try to catch some of these. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But, see, then 

19 you -- and then you might have another -- a 

20 level of -- and we have talked about this 

21 before too -- there's a level of peer review 

22 when you get to those that are closer to the 

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1 PoC or something like you know, because that's 

2 where even a small error could swing a case if 

3 you're at 49.8 or whatever percentile, then 

4 even small mistakes can make the difference. 

5 So I guess it's not as simple as just catching 

6 the big ones. 

7 DR. MAURO: I agree with you. I'm 

8 only talking about the big ones, the big ones. 

9 A 20 percent difference, I'm not going to pick 

10 up the way I do it. And 20 percent could be 

11 very important if you're at 47, 48 percent. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: An order of magnitude 

13 you ought to be able to catch, just by looking 

14 at it. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Brant's got a 

16 thought on this. 

17 DR. ULSH: Also keep in mind, to go 

18 to a point that was raised earlier about, if 

19 we're catching this many errors in this small 

20 sample, how many are in the whole population? 

21 Don't we have a selection process where this 

22 committee is purposely honing in on situations 

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1 where these types of errors would be likely to 

2 occur or to have a big impact? I mean we are 

3 looking at ones --

4 DR. MAURO: It's a cross-section. We 

5 are trying to catch every decade --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

7 DR. MAURO: every PoC category, and 

8 every cancer --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but selection 

10 is keyed towards close to 50 percent. 

11 DR. ULSH: We have situations where 

12 little --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But that may not 

14 change the error rate, that may change the 

15 consequence rate, it may change -- yes. Yes. 

16 Right. Anyway. We'll leave those two actions 

17 that Ted described, I think, are where we 

18 should move with this topic, but anything else 

19 for the record now? We have these examples, 

20 we'll try to -- Mike and David will make sure, 

21 well they don't have government accounts, 

22 these have to be cleared first --

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: We can get it 

2 cleared through OGC probably and get it to 

3 them. I don't think there's going to be any 

4 privacy issues. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We'll get these 

6 to you as soon as I can. NIOSH will get these. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: The fact is I would 

8 prefer not to send it all and the reason I 

9 would -- we will, but my preference is to send 

10 it only to CDC computers because once we start 

11 sending things, okay this is cleared we can 

12 send it outside, this is going to be sent 

13 outside, it won't be long until we make a 

14 mistake. 

15 MR. KATZ: Well, yes, I mean, what 

16 I've suggested for that is I can forward 

17 things that are not sensitive, I can forward 

18 them, I'm not worried about my making a 

19 mistake. I don't think I'll make a mistake. So 

20 -- I don't mind doing that and that's a 

21 workaround for that. 

22 So for non-sensitive, I don't mind 

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1 forwarding those documents. You send them to 

2 me with just the CDC people and I'll take 

3 responsibility for sending it to others, but 

4 it's PA it doesn't go to anyone else from me, 

5 either, so that's -- and I've sent the Board 

6 an email about that recently. Up until now 

7 I've sort of taken on the burden of the 

8 liability on that issue and I'm not going to 

9 carry it anymore. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, so let's 

11 move on to the next item, the selection of the 

12 14th set of cases, and Mike and David, do they 

13 have any way of getting these? You said these 

14 could be emailed or no? 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, these are not 

16 privacy. I know these are not privacy. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean are you 

18 comfortable with emailing them to their 

19 regular accounts? 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm not comfortable 

21 but I can do it. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, there's 

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1 levels of comfort. Are you fairly comfortable? 

2 Okay. 

3 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, you think so? 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: It'll take me just a 

5 minute because I've got to clear a couple of 

6 things out here. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well all right, 

8 what I'm going to say is let's take a five --

9 let's keep this one short because we just got 

10 off for lunch really, but take a five-minute 

11 break, let Stu forward these over, and we'll 

12 be right back. 

13 MS. BEHLING: Stu, can you include 

14 me on the email? 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: That was Kathy? 

16 MS. BEHLING: Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Kathy. 

18 MS. BEHLING: You can send it to the 

19 CDC account. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let's take a 10-

22 minute break and that way people can have a 

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1 chance to look through this list of cases and 

2 then when we come back from our break we'll 

3 start doing our selection, you know, go 

4 through it case by case and pick out ones we 

5 think -- you know, we'll go through our 

6 regular process of selecting, pre-selecting. 

7 Ten after two we'll come back, all 

8 right? Thank you. 

9 MR. KATZ: Ten after, about, around 

10 ten after. 

11 (Whereupon the above-entitled 

12 matter went off the record at 1:58 p.m. and 

13 resumed at 2:15 p.m.) 

14 MR. KATZ: Okay, this is the Dose 

15 Reconstruction Subcommittee. We are just 

16 reconvening after a short break. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay and Mike and 

18 David, are you guys on the phone? 

19 MEMBER GIBSON: It's Mike. I'm here, 

20 Mark. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, did 

22 you get the file? 

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1 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I did get it. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

3 MR. KATZ: You too, David? 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right well 

5 why don't we go ahead and start. I'm going to 

6 assume David got it and again, this is the 

7 pre-selection, so the process will be that we 

8 will identify these, right Stu, and then 

9 you'll give us additional information on them? 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I would like to 

11 suggest that we maybe select more than what we 

12 want to ultimately select --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Because when we get 

15 the additional information --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think I'm 

17 looking to select any case viable on here. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You know there's 

20 only a total of 50-something or whatever? 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: There's 52 on here. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So it's not that 

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1 big a list, like sometimes you provide us a 

2 lot more. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So yes, let's 

5 select as many as we can here. 

6 MEMBER MUNN: And what are we aiming 

7 for, ultimately? Total number? 

8 MR. KATZ: Well, ultimately we are 

9 aiming for about 30. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, usually we 

11 do sets of 30, but we have varied on that a 

12 little bit --

13 MEMBER MUNN: Just wanted to make 

14 sure. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So, I can 

16 get the ball rolling and they go from low to 

17 high PoC, obviously. 

18 MEMBER MUNN: Well, let's ask the 

19 other obvious questions also. What other 

20 criteria are we -- do we have any specific 

21 criteria we want to aim for? 

22 MEMBER PRESLEY: Like a site that we 

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1 haven't done. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I was 

3 going to ask, as we go through --

4 I mean at the end, that's a good 

5 question Wanda, at the end we might want to 

6 look back. Paul had asked that question and I 

7 didn't really get a chance to look at the 

8 spreadsheet with the responses but some of 

9 that asked about the other things, and maybe 

10 if we asked for an expanded matrix, we can ask 

11 for some of those factors that Paul had 

12 brought up, you know --

13 MEMBER MUNN: I guess --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: as other 

15 criteria, I mean --

16 MEMBER MUNN: My point is it's 

17 really difficult for me to evaluate which of 

18 these might be worth our delving into unless I 

19 am clear at the outset what we really and 

20 truly are establishing as our criteria for 

21 looking at them. It -- you know we have done 

22 decades, we have done the cross --

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: These are full 

3 internals, all of them. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

5 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

7 MEMBER MUNN: These are all full. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, they're all 

9 described as full here. As we know that is not 

10 necessarily --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: That's the button 

12 pushed by the peer reviewer. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. For 

14 instance we know that when you say Simonds Saw 

15 is full, it is a one size fits all model. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: It's the only 

17 option. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

19 MEMBER PRESLEY: What I would like 

20 to see us do is take something from about 

21 where you start here at 232, which is 45 with 

22 a PoC of 45.635 and put every one of those in 

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1 there for review that goes up to 49.57. 

2 DR. MAURO: I agree with that. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I would almost 

4 agree with that except for the fact that 

5 there's several -- that may not even include 

6 them Bob, so I may agree with that. No, 

7 there's a couple at the end there, it's like 

8 three Bethlehem Steels, although they are 

9 really close to 50. 

10 MEMBER PRESLEY: You get up that 

11 close -

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 49.57, this is 

13 Paul's pet peeve, how do you get that kind of 

14 degree --

15 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: Well, and besides, 

17 it's one thing if you are talking about the 

18 broad swipes, the overestimates and the 

19 underestimates. It's a whole different thing 

20 if you're talking about what is provided to 

21 us. 

22 MEMBER PRESLEY: I would like to 

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1 know how in the world that something in Kansas 

2 City can come out as a zero. 

3 MR. KATZ: But when you're dealing 

4 with a model like Bethlehem Steel, you are 

5 going to get them coming out at any number. 

6 It's still a machine. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

8 MEMBER PRESLEY: Just so you know, 

9 one guy goes to one point, one additional 

10 place, and the next guy goes to two additional 

11 places and that might be, instead of 49.57, 

12 that might 49.6. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: Or the next unit may 

14 be zero. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I think the last one 

16 was listed on there by mistake. I clip these 

17 out of a much longer list. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Kansas City. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes. And we 

20 selected the first, selected like 51 or so, 

21 and I think I clipped one too many lines but I 

22 clipped this out of a much longer spreadsheet 

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1 and I clipped one too many lines I think. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: An interesting 

3 one though. 

4 MEMBER MUNN: Well, I guess, I'm 

5 sorry to have started that discussion but I'm 

6 still not clear -

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No that's all 

8 right. 

9 MEMBER MUNN: what needs to be our 

10 criteria --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think the 

12 criteria, at least for our pre-selection 

13 Wanda, in my opinion, the criteria is the same 

14 as we've always done, the one factor that I 

15 would pay maybe a little more attention to 

16 this time through is the data proved, which to 

17 me would mean -- I would want to focus like 

18 there's one Simonds Saw that was done 

19 10/14/05. I would hope that we will, as Stu 

20 has said many a times, let's look for more 

21 current cases, yes because otherwise we are 

22 going to see similar findings that we have 

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1 seen in the past. Yes, so, if we were thinking 

2 of moving the ball here, I would focus on 

3 that. 

4 But otherwise, you know, these are 

5 -- a lot of these look reasonable. 

6 MEMBER PRESLEY: You got one there 

7 from Simonds Saw and you've got one from Y-12, 

8 in that category. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well is it okay 

10 if we just go by -- go through one by one, 

11 remembering that this is a pre-selection and 

12 if we -- when we get the full listing out, 

13 next time we can still cut them off the list. 

14 So I'm going to be more inclusive on this run15 through than -- and is the idea to do -- you 

16 won't have this ready by next week? 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Not clear that we 

18 will. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: But we are trying to 

21 figure out if we'll have it --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. The idea is 

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1 if we can do that, we can do the full 

2 selection at the full Board and that would 

3 make SC&A happy. 

4 MR. KATZ: That's the hope. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Now one thing I 

7 should probably mention here, on this pool, is 

8 that we have been selecting cases for review 

9 on a basis of uncertain set of criteria, 

10 meaning it had to be ready for review, meaning 

11 finally adjudicated. Well, it turns out we 

12 don't necessarily know all the time when a 

13 case is finally adjudicated. The site, the DOL 

14 site offices don't necessarily send us the 

15 file decision. So there were a number of cases 

16 that had been done that we can't select. 

17 After this, going forward, we are 

18 going to select everything that as far as our 

19 record is concerned, is at DOL. Then we will 

20 take that selection list or maybe a pre21 selected list of them, give that to DOL and 

22 say okay, which of these really are finally 

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1 adjudicated. And then we would have a set. 

2 So we have been drawing from an 

3 incomplete set of incomplete piece of the 

4 population when we've been drawing these. So 

5 we can -- if we get another grab at another 

6 selection process, it's not like we're going 

7 to see 10 cases. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. All right, 

9 so going down the first page I'm on, ID number 

10 273, I would say to include that, 

11 understanding that -- well let me ask this. 

12 The Hooker model, I think there's a site model 

13 for Hooker that we just covered, right? 

14 DR. MAURO: The Site Profile and the 

15 ER. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I'm not sure 

17 that the -- this might predate what was done 

18 in the model. 

19 DR. MAURO: What date is that? 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is 8/3/07, 

21 that the reconstruction was done. So it might 

22 have used some of those older TIBs. The 

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1 question here might be, is this conservative 

2 relative to the documents that are available 

3 now. So I would argue to include that one. 

4 The next one I have on the list is 

5 the 446, I just skipped the American Bearing. 

6 We have done American Bearing once I believe. 

7 And this case was done in `04, so I skipped 

8 that one. 446, any opinions on that? 

9 MEMBER MUNN: That's Paducah. We 

10 have plenty of Paducahs. 

11 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, yes. Yes, 

13 it had -- it had the vast number of sites. I 

14 guess that was the interest to me. 

15 MS. BEHLING: Excuse me, Mark. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

17 MS. BEHLING: I don't believe that 

18 we have done an American Bearing as I am 

19 looking down through the list. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, we haven't? 

21 DR. MAURO: No, we haven't. I would 

22 know that. 

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1 MS. BEHLING: No. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. So I 

3 guess I would argue to include that. And then 

4 I had the next two -- so the first three I've 

5 checked. 

6 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So, American 

7 Bearing, I mean the one thing is, it was --

8 the review was done in 2004. Is that --? 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, but we would 

10 ask for a mini Site Profile and ask that -- if 

11 there is a Site Profile. I don't even know if 

12 it's a --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't even know 

14 how this was done. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. I think 

16 we have to raise that question David, that's 

17 the --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Chances are it was a 

19 TIB-4, but --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, chances are 

21 it's just a generic process, but -- I think we 

22 would have, if there is any site matrix or 

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1 Site Profile out there, we would ask SC&A to 

2 delve into that. 

3 DR. MAURO: Yes. I was just going to 

4 ask. We haven't done this recently, since way 

5 back. If there are any that you would like one 

6 of these mini Site Profiles, like we did in 

7 the eighth set --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

9 DR. MAURO: Please point them out to 

10 us. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think we 

12 may not know that until we see the case, you 

13 know, so. 

14 DR. MAURO: Sure. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right and 

16 then refresh my memory on ElectroMet and 

17 Harshaw, the next two. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Electro 

19 Metallurgical was also in the 6001 --

20 DR. MAURO: We're actively reviewing 

21 this as a -- well this is an SC&A. It's in the 

22 -- we're actively reviewing this with the 6001 

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1 Work Group as we speak, the Site Profile and 

2 the ER. As far as cases go, I think I do 

3 recall doing a case. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I can't recall if we 

5 did, Kathy do you know that? 

6 MS. BEHLING: We did one case. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, so I can go 

8 either way on that one. I think it's a one 

9 size fits all model I believe. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe it is, 

11 yes. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I would say we 

13 don't necessarily have to do another one. I 

14 would leave that off the list. The next one I 

15 have is 092 Y-12. I skipped the Simonds Saw 

16 ones because I am pretty sure we did a Simonds 

17 Saw. 

18 DR. MAURO: Yes, we did two, I 

19 remember. 

20 MEMBER CLAWSON: There's a Pantex. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, Pantex. I 

22 didn't see that one. Iowa and Pantex. 

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1 MEMBER CLAWSON: And Pantex. The 

2 reason why I'm saying that is that we've got 

3 over 40 years in --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

5 MEMBER CLAWSON: And this would 

6 bring into it -- I'd just like to see that one 

7 if I could. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. All right, 

9 130, let's add on the list. Then 092 is the Y10 12 plant. And did we do Alcoa? 

11 DR. MAURO: Yes, I just finished 

12 one. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, do I don't -

14 - I imagine that's a one size fits all. 

15 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

16 DR. ULSH, So, 92 is in? 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, unless --

18 DR. ULSH: 663 is out, then? 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

20 DR. ULSH: Okay. 

21 MEMBER MUNN: Even thought it's one 

22 of the more recent ones we have? 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It is one of the 

2 more recent ones, I noticed that too. 

3 DR. MAURO: Alcoa 1, that's the 

4 Pennsylvania one, right? There's an Alcoa 1, 

5 there's an Alcoa 2. I forget --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I don't know 

7 which is which. 

8 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

9 MEMBER PRESLEY: I think you're 

10 right. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you know which 

12 one you did before? 

13 DR. MAURO: Pennsylvania, I forget 

14 if it was one or two. I just finished it. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

16 MS. BEHLING: It was one. 

17 DR. MAURO: It was one? 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: It was one? 

19 DR. MAURO: Thanks Kathy. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Then the last one 

21 --

22 MEMBER MUNN: Interesting work 

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1 decade on that. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Some of these AWEs, 

3 they refer to --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thirty? Yes, I 

5 know --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: The day they started 

7 working at that company. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: And then the dose 

10 reconstruction starts when that company got 

11 the AEC contract. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: So I mean the actual 

14 dose reconstruction period is going to be 

15 whatever the covered period was for that site. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

17 DR. ULSH: So, 92 is in, 63 is out? 

18 DR. MAURO: There's one thing -- I'm 

19 sorry -- it's a rough process. One of the 

20 dimensions of this thing that has recently 

21 become important is the use of surrogate data. 

22 In other words, many of these AWEs depend on 

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1 surrogate data and only recently have we been 

2 looking at it -- now we would do the review as 

3 we normally would but now we are starting to 

4 ask the question, okay, the way they applied 

5 surrogate data for this Site Profile in this 

6 case, does it meet the new surrogate data 

7 criteria, the plausibility, timeliness and all 

8 that sort of thing. So that has been something 

9 that ewe are doing now that we never did 

10 before. 

11 I've just been reminded. So and I 

12 know Alcoa was one of them where they ended up 

13 using Christifano & Harris as a surrogate data 

14 source for -- and I don't know whether that's 

15 important to the --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I think it's 

17 important but if you've covered it in one case 

18 --

19 DR. MAURO: And I did cover it, I --

20 yes, I --

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's going to be 

22 the same for all of them. 

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1 DR. MAURO: Yes, and it will, but I 

2 just --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. No, good 

4 idea and I actually jotted that down. That 

5 might be something -- I'm not sure how easy 

6 that is for NIOSH to tease out in the next set 

7 of extra information --

8 DR. MAURO: I can help with that. I 

9 wrote --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If we asked them 

11 for is. Is surrogate used or not, you know. 

12 DR. MAURO: I made a table up about 

13 six months ago --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes, you did. 

15 DR. MAURO: With every single, every 

16 single site --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's right. So 

18 it shouldn't be --

19 DR. MAURO: Which ones have 

20 surrogate and what and I could email that to 

21 everyone. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That would be 

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1 useful, yes. 

2 MR. KATZ: Everyone has that 

3 already, right? 

4 DR. MAURO: You probably -- oh you 

5 do? But if you want me to resend it. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They do -- but I 

7 think it might be worth resending. All right. 

8 Then I picked 572 but I could go either one on 

9 this one. The main reason I picked this one 

10 was it was in a more recent case. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: So are we doing 653? 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I skipped 653. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 572, I'm 

15 including. It's the three plants but also it's 

16 a fairly recent reconstruction. All right? So 

17 that gives one, two, three, four, five, six on 

18 that page. 

19 MR. KATZ: I only have five. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I added on 130. 

21 Did you get that one? 

22 MR. KATZ: Oh, yes. I have 130. 

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1 DR. MAURO: Could you give us the 

2 first page, could you just run down real 

3 quick? 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I got 273, 036 --

5 MR. KATZ: Oh I missed that. Okay. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 446, 130, 092 and 

7 572. 

8 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes, I hadn't heard 

9 of that one. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I don't know 

11 if we've done DuPont Deepwater. 

12 DR. MAURO: Yes, we are in the 

13 middle of doing a Site Profile -- this is one 

14 of the ones we sort of postponed --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

16 DR. MAURO: Site Profile review, but 

17 I did do a case, at least one case. Kathy 

18 probably knows. I think we just did one case. 

19 MS. BEHLING: Just one, yes. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't see a 

21 need. It's two years of experience. I think if 

22 we have the one case. 

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1 MEMBER MUNN: That was one of the 

2 things, when I was looking over this very 

3 quickly, one of the things that I chose to do 

4 was look at very short employment, anybody 

5 that had five or less years of employment, I 

6 looked at to try to ascertain in my own mind 

7 why in the world would you have an almost 37 

8 percent PoC? How does somebody who has been 

9 employed some place for a couple of years? 

10 That's a very high PoC for a very short period 

11 of time. 

12 It turns out, as I looked down all 

13 these things, virtually all of those are lung, 

14 almost every single one of them. 

15 DR. MAURO: And it's probably 

16 surrogate data where they assigned some very -

17 -

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Very 

19 conservative, yes. 

20 MEMBER MUNN: But it seemed to me 

21 worthwhile as another criteria, as a different 

22 criteria, than one that we have used in the 

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1 past. It's odd that someone with short 

2 exposure time supposedly and significant PoCs. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you want to 

4 include Deepwater or others? There's other 

5 ones, I don't know if you want --

6 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes, there's 

7 another one down there. I keep talking about 

8 it but I wish somebody would bring it up and 

9 look at it. 07. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I have that one 

11 checked. I do have that one checked and that's 

12 a short period as well. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: So do I. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I would still 

15 argue to skip Deepwater unless you really want 

16 to -- do you want to add it, or? All right. 

17 But we will keep that in mind. 

18 MEMBER CLAWSON: I had never heard 

19 of it and I was just wondering if it was 

20 something else. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. The net one 

22 we've heard of, Blockson Chemical. I don't 

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1 know that --

2 MEMBER MUNN: I see that from time 

3 to time. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't know that 

5 we need to do another case on that. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: That'll be, it looks 

7 like an SEC claim now. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that is what 

9 I was wondering too, and General Steel we have 

10 done at least one. 

11 DR. MAURO: Several. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I would say 

13 skip those. The next -- for some reason I did 

14 check one of those, oh, only because of the 

15 date it was done but the model should be the 

16 same. That was 614 I'm looking at. 

17 MEMBER PRESLEY: I was going to say, 

18 that's -- you got two different types of 

19 cancer there in two different areas. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That's actually one 

21 cancer --

22 MEMBER PRESLEY: Oh, is that one? 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: That's one cancer 

2 model, lymphoma and multiple myeloma cancer 

3 model. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But it does have 

5 Dow added with General Steel and we've often 

6 covered those together anyway. But have you 

7 done Dow Chemicals? I know we've done --

8 DR. MAURO: Oh, no, oh that's very 

9 much on our front burner in terms of the Site 

10 Profile SEC. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Have you done a 

12 case? 

13 MS. BEHLING: No, we have not done 

14 any Dow cases. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So -

16 MEMBER CLAWSON: Let's do that one. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think we should 

18 add that one on, 614. As a matter of fact I 

19 think we were asked if we had done any Dow 

20 cases at one point by the petitioner, yes. 

21 MS. BEHLING: Yes, we were. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. Next 

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1 one I have is 107 as was mentioned. Short time 

2 period. It was actually done very early on, 

3 though, that's my -- the only possible 

4 hesitation there. I don't know what people 

5 think about that. 

6 Okay we will leave it in then, at 

7 least for this, again, we are triaging here. I 

8 have the next one in, 481. And I have 566. 

9 They are both, well, fairly recent 

10 reconstruction. And then W.R. Grace I had a 

11 question on, I think we have done this one 

12 Katy? 

13 MS. BEHLING: We have done one W.R. 

14 Grace, yes. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: One W.R. Grace. 

16 DR. MAURO: We have a case in front 

17 of us right now that we are working on. Did we 

18 do one earlier or is this the one you are 

19 referring to, the one we have right --

20 MS. BEHLING: It's the one we are 

21 working on right now, that's the only one. 

22 DR. MAURO: Okay, we have got this -

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1 - right now there's an active one. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It is a site, it 

3 is a one size fits all kind of model though or 

4 --? 

5 DR. MAURO: Haven't looked at it 

6 yet. 

7 MS. BEHLING: It has a Site Profile 

8 or an exposure matrix so --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: W.R. Grace is now 

10 Nuclear Fuel Services, Erwin, Tennessee and we 

11 have got exposure records for them. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh. 

13 DR. ULSH: It's an unusual cancer, 

14 too. 

15 DR. MAURO: Nervous system. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: That's what I was 

17 thinking before. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well then we 

19 might -- are you using exposure records to 

20 reconstruct? 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: We better be. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess you'd 

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1 better be, if you've got them, yes, yes. 

2 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, we are. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, and this 

4 was done in `09, do you think that would have 

5 included the use of -- Scott? 

6 MR. SIEBERT: I don't see why it 

7 would not have. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Okay. So 

9 maybe we should include it. 564, add that. So 

10 that's five on that page. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: I of course checked 

12 316. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: On the next page? 

14 I was just going to say, the next page I've 

15 checked everything except number 83, Superior 

16 Steel. But I'm not sure, in relooking at them, 

17 I'd like to drop a few off. 

18 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well let me ask you 

19 something. Look down there at 485, the thyroid 

20 from Nevada Test Site? 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

22 MEMBER PRESLEY: How many cases are 

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1 we seeing on that particular type of cancer? 

2 Is that --

3 MEMBER MUNN: Not a whole lot. 

4 MEMBER PRESLEY: That's what I was 

5 going to say. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I can -- I 

7 think I can tell you here and now. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I have that 

9 checked as well. 

10 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: Here's the other 

12 DuPont Deepwater. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I'm 

14 proposing to add everything except number 83 

15 on that page. So if -- but if you want to drop 

16 any off, I mean --

17 MEMBER PRESLEY: Do we need 

18 Deepwater back in there again? We dropped it 

19 off once before. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes, 

21 Deepwater, you're right. No, I think we should 

22 drop off Deepwater, right? And probably 

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1 Simonds too don't you think, Simonds Saw and 

2 Steel lung, it's the same model. So I revise 

3 my statement. 

4 Let me read down what I have now. 

5 I'm sorry. I was trying to be a little more 

6 efficient and came out less efficient. Okay, I 

7 have 313, Hanford case, 316, Savannah River, 

8 479, which is an X-10 case, 54, which is an 

9 Iowa case, done in `04 but it's a bladder 

10 cancer, right? It's not a -- yes. Then 630, 

11 which is a Hanford, 485, Nevada Test Site and 

12 424, Blockson. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Bob, to your 

14 question, we have done four claims where a 

15 thyroid was the cancer when it had a single, 

16 there was just the one cancer on the claim. We 

17 have done one other claim where thyroid was on 

18 where there was multiple cancers on the claim. 

19 MEMBER MUNN: Not a whole lot. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that Blockson 

21 case will be in the SEC, I mean we still look 

22 at the dose reconstruction. 

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1 DR. MAURO: Same goes for NTS. 

2 ` MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. The NTS thyroid 

3 will be in the SEC as well. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh I'm sorry, 

5 okay then, drop those off the list if --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Both the NTS and the 

7 Blockson so that's 485 and 424. Is that what 

8 you want to do? 

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. That's what he 

10 said. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: Take them off. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: NTS is off. And 

14 424 is off. Okay. So then I must have five on 

15 that page, right? 

16 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. Okay, 

18 then the next one I have is, I wasn't sure 

19 about this, this is a question mark, Allied 

20 Chemical. This is one of those, Wanda, that 

21 caught my eye just like yours, 0.5 years. 

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, half a year --

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. It's skin 

2 cancer. That's why, probably multiple skin, is 

3 my guess. 

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, it is. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

6 MEMBER MUNN: Melanoma, basal cell -

7 - CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: That's also a place 

9 where we get exposure records from. We get 

10 exposure. 

11 DR. MAURO: Yes, we didn't want to 

12 wait. It's a complex one. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Let's leave 

14 it in, just out of uniqueness and it's a new 

15 case. Next one is Westinghouse Nuclear Fuels 

16 Division. Have we done Westinghouse? I don't 

17 think so. 

18 DR. MAURO: Kathy, do you know if we 

19 did any Westinghouse? 

20 MS. BEHLING: Let me look here. One. 

21 DR. MAURO: We did one. 

22 MS. BEHLING: I think we are 

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265 

1 probably working on that right now. 

2 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

3 MS. BEHLING: Westinghouse Nuclear 

4 Fuels Division, yes. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll leave it in 

6 for now. We can --

7 DR. ULSH: Is that an SEC site? I 

8 don't recall. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't recall if it 

10 is or not. One Westinghouse is and one isn't. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We can follow up 

12 on these --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: We can figure it 

14 out. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: at the full 

16 meeting, yes. Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: We can figure it 

18 out. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, let's see. 

20 Next one I had -- I did have this Portsmouth 

21 one listed, it's a skin cancer, 44 percent. I 

22 could go either way on that one. 

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1 DR. MAURO: This is one of those 

2 that we are continually struggling with in 

3 terms of as a particle settling on the skin, 

4 you know. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes. 

6 DR. MAURO: That's what's going to -

7 - of course because it's skin cancer it is not 

8 covered by the SEC. But the question is, 

9 assigned 44, that is probably based on, my 

10 guess is film badge data --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And multiple 

12 cancers probably. 

13 DR. MAURO: Yes. And the only thing 

14 that would make it something of interest to 

15 the group is that it may turn out that if you 

16 were to assume that, let's say, uranium 

17 particle fell on -- if it turns out on, let's 

18 say, the neck, or I don't know -- whenever we 

19 see a person with skin cancer on the hand, the 

20 face or the neck, we always raise -- and it's 

21 at a site where there's potential for 

22 particulate settling, I always say well 

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267 

1 listen, what are you going to do here? This is 

2 a global issue. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

4 DR. MAURO: This is a global issue, 

5 what do you want to -- that's probably just 

6 going to emerge out of this review, a global 

7 issue is going to come up. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Let's leave 

9 it on the list for now. 

10 Okay. 545, Savannah River, another 

11 lung case on Savannah River, but these 

12 Savannah River cases have proved to be very 

13 interesting as we have reviewed them, and we 

14 are not -- I remember a presentation in July 

15 that when I looked over our overall estimates 

16 of where we want to be for percentages for the 

17 sites and this is a big site with a lot of 

18 claims and we're not -- we're not quite there 

19 --

20 DR. MAURO: Not there. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Even though we 

22 seem like we are doing tons of Savannah River 

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1 cases. 

2 MR. KATZ: The 13th set, you added a 

3 lot, though. There were a lot of Savannahs in 

4 the 13th set I think. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think you're 

6 right, so. Well, we can consider that with the 

7 full Board as well and maybe I'll try to 

8 update those projections too for the meeting, 

9 by next week. Yes, right. Okay. I'm skipping 

10 that one and then Rocky Flats, my question 

11 was, does this fall on the SEC, other 

12 respiratory, is that not --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: If you leave out the 

14 respiratory, all is compensated, I think 

15 everything's compensated until you get to 

16 Mound. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So it 

18 should be SEC, right, this one? 

19 DR. ULSH: Well, it's in the SEC 

20 time period, it's an SEC cancer, but --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: But may not be 

22 neutron exposed. 

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1 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry, it may not be 

2 -

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Neutron exposed. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Neutron exposed. 

5 DR. MAURO: And that would be --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that would be 

7 the final hurdle with DOL. 

8 Well, let's leave it on for now and 

9 that will prompt me to bring up that topic 

10 with DOL at the full meeting. That's 528, yes. 

11 I guess the next one I had is 666. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: Oh. 

13 DR. MAURO: Ominous. 

14 DR. ULSH: Skip that one. 

15 (Laughter.) 

16 DR. MAURO: Ominous. 

17 MEMBER CLAWSON: We will never do 

18 it. 

19 MR. KATZ: It's like the 13th floor. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: You'll pardon me if 

21 we're not surprised. 

22 DR. MAURO: Everybody saw "The 

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270 

1 Omen," right? 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. You need 

3 your own building. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, last page, 

5 well last page and a couple --

6 DR. ULSH: Wait, 666 is in or not? 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

8 MR. KATZ: Despite our worries. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Despite our 

10 worries, yes. 

11 MS. BEHLING: It is in, right? 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I put 643 in. I 

14 know it's a skin but it's at the Pacific 

15 Proving Ground in Nevada Test Site. It's the 

16 sort of non-SEC Nevada Test Site. 

17 DR. MAURO: And Pacific Proving 

18 Ground. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then the same 

20 thing for the next one, Rocky Flats, non-SEC 

21 sort of reconstruction. 

22 MEMBER PRESLEY: Argonne? 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Same, Argonne 

2 East, I don't --

3 DR. MAURO: We never did -- I don't 

4 think -- did we ever do an Argonne East Kathy? 

5 I don't think so. 

6 MS. BEHLING: Yes, one. 

7 DR. MAURO: We did do one, okay. 

8 MS. BEHLING: Two. 

9 DR. MAURO: Two? There you go,. You 

10 know what, I didn't do it, so I don't 

11 remember. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's not all 

13 about you, John. 

14 DR. MAURO: It's not all about me. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, I'm 

16 going to include 581 anyway. I don't think 

17 that's the one size fits all model is it, 

18 Kathy? 

19 MS. BEHLING: I don't think so, no. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: We get exposure 

21 histories from -

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right. So. 

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1 MEMBER MUNN: It's just Idaho. 

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: No, that's Chicago. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: She's in Chicago. 

4 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Idaho is east for 

6 Wanda. 591, Mound, I included it, this one 

7 caught my eye with the more recent 

8 reconstruction date also. I skipped the 

9 Bethlehem. 

10 DR. MAURO: 1930? 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I took the next 

12 Mound also. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Their hire date. 

14 DR. MAURO: Well, that goes back. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, the next -- I 

16 skipped the 567. I put in 604, Mound lung 

17 reconstructed in `09. Skipping the next two 

18 Bethlehems. The last one I have is 106, 

19 Portsmouth. It's skin but it was fairly 

20 compensable. And that's where I left it with 

21 one more question, which is do we do these 

22 next two. I'm pretty sure we did Bliss & 

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273 

1 Laughlin, didn't we? 

2 We did the Reduction Pilot Plant? 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: That's Huntington 

4 Pilot Plant. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh it is 

6 Huntington, okay. 

7 DR. MAURO: Yes, I don't know --

8 right, this is Huntington --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Then did we do 

10 Grand Junction? 

11 MEMBER CLAWSON: Grand Junction is 

12 the one that kind of got me -- look at that, 

13 years there, 1.2 years. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

15 MS. BEHLING: We've done two Grand 

16 Junctions. But I don't believe we have done 

17 Bliss & Laughlin. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, I thought we 

19 had. 

20 DR. MAURO: We have a Site Profile 

21 review. I don't remember a case. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Maybe that's what 

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274 

1 I'm remembering. 

2 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is it under the 

4 southern --

5 DR. MAURO: 6001, exactly. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's what 

7 I'm remembering. 

8 DR. MAURO: We just finished it. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I mean maybe 

10 we should do the Bliss & Laughlin then, 423. 

11 MEMBER PRESLEY: I'm going to be 

12 honest with you. I'd like to see that 246 for 

13 Bethlehem Steel. If you round that off, it's 

14 50 -- 49.57. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: It'll be paid under 

16 the SEC anyway. 

17 MEMBER PRESLEY: Will it? Okay. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: The lung at 

19 Bethlehem Steel, it's SEC. 

20 MEMBER PRESLEY: Okay. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

22 MEMBER PRESLEY: Okay. 

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1 MEMBER MUNN: So, what was the 

2 decision about 105 and 131? 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I was going to 

4 not put 105 in or 131 because Kathy said we 

5 did a couple of Grand Junctions and also the 

6 Huntington Pilot Plant we have done. 

7 MEMBER MUNN: So Grand Junction, you 

8 noticed, that's another one of those --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

10 MEMBER MUNN: Fairly new --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Let's do 

12 it. You're right, because that's a -- yes, how 

13 conservative is conservative enough, right? 

14 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I suspect that's the 

16 radon there. That would take a whole lot of 

17 radon. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

19 MR. KATZ: Is that on there then? 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, let me see, 

21 yes. I've got -- let me count, six and five, 

22 one, two, three, four -- 30 exactly. I've got 

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276 

1 30 on the nose assuming we don't cut any. But 

2 I think that's the best we can do with this 

3 list. And if we lose a few we will still be 

4 close to the 30, you know? All right. 

5 Everybody good with that? Okay. 

6 Moving on, let's cover this one 

7 item that Ted was mentioning to me, the PER 

8 12, the case tasking, I guess is what we have 

9 to do, right? 

10 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, go ahead. 

12 MR. KATZ: So, it's high-fired and 

13 we have traded these emails. Hans originally 

14 had hoped to do the case selection. He got 

15 into the system and realized he didn't have 

16 the wherewithal to be able to do that on his 

17 own independently, so I forwarded that finding 

18 from Hans along back to DCAS, to Brant and 

19 Stu, and we discussed this at a break here. 

20 They are going to then do the selection. If 

21 you need Hans's help at some point to 

22 understand his matrix of cases or what have 

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277 

1 you, then just by all means get in touch with 

2 him directly, and consult with him so you can 

3 do the selection. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: So we just make a 

5 selection of sets and -

6 MR. KATZ: So you want a selection 

7 of sets larger than the -- larger than you 

8 will need. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

10 MR. KATZ: So that then the DR 

11 Subcommittee at the next meeting can make that 

12 selection. And this is --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let me ask for a 

14 clarification. Why did -- Kathy or I don't 

15 know if Hans is on the line, but why couldn't 

16 SC&A do this or -

17 MR. HINNEFELD: It has to do with 

18 kinds of information you need to know about 

19 the case in order to make the selection. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: And --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And it wasn't 

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278 

1 accessible to them, or -

2 MR. HINNEFELD: It's probably not 

3 clear to them. If it's electronically 

4 available it's not clear to them how to do it. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, okay. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And if it's -- and 

7 it may not be electronically accessible in all 

8 cases so it may involve looking at the claims. 

9 I have to go back and look at it. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, all 

11 right, all right. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: We know a lot of 

13 things electronically about these but we don't 

14 necessarily try to get people to understand 

15 them. I would send it down to TST and say 

16 based on these parameters, pick these 

17 populations for me and they could do it, not 

18 like I could do it sitting it at my desk and 

19 so --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I'm just 

21 thinking of the independence factor, that if 

22 we -- I don't want to be --

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279 

1 MR. HINNEFELD: Fairly long --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: NIOSH -

3 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

4 MR. KATZ: No, but they'll be 

5 pulling a pool and then this --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it's okay 

7 I just wanted to --

8 MR. KATZ: The Subcommittee will 

9 make choices and this is one where I don't 

10 think it needs to go to the full Board. This 

11 is something that can be done independently by 

12 the Subcommittee. 

13 MS. BEHLING: Excuse me Mark. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

15 MS. BEHLING: This is Kathy Behling. 

16 I believe that the reason we weren't able to 

17 select these cases is because we needed to 

18 know if these individuals had urinalysis 

19 samples, or if they were lung counts, or how 

20 some of the internal bioassay was assessed and 

21 we couldn't necessarily pick that out by just 

22 scanning on NOCTS. We would have had to 

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1 actually go into the various records and I 

2 thought that perhaps NIOSH could do this a lot 

3 quicker than we could. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I think we probably 

5 can. It may not be on our side, but I think 

6 ORAU has some stuff that might be able to help 

7 and at any rate, it's more our thing than 

8 theirs, to be honest, to get a pool --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: To make those 

11 selections you need a pool. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it's 

13 fine, I just was thinking about the 

14 independence factor, so -- but I think it's 

15 fine as long as you get a larger pool and then 

16 we can select from that pool. Okay. All right. 

17 So that's done. There's no --

18 MR. KATZ: And that'll be on our 

19 agenda for the next meeting, then. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: It's in the -- Tom 

22 has actually specified how many we've used in 

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1 each category. We just need to pull more than 

2 that. We could pull -- we could pull 

3 everything that fits that category. I think we 

4 could. If we had to do a manual search we may 

5 not do that, but I don't think we have to do a 

6 manual search. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. And 

8 then I had really two more items on the 

9 agenda. One is the ninth matrix and the other 

10 is the item that David Richardson brought up 

11 earlier which is sort of the question of maybe 

12 reassess where we're at with this dose 

13 reconstruction effort and what are we aiming 

14 to get out this and, one thing I emailed David 

15 during the break and I think one thing I would 

16 like an opportunity to do is go back to our 

17 original scope document. I don't know when we 

18 developed this, Wanda might have a 

19 recollection, but I think Mike was -- Mike and 

20 Bob and Wanda and I -- were the ones that were 

21 on the committee at the time, where we looked 

22 at the scope of the dose reconstruction effort 

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1 compared to the statute and the regulation. 

2 So one thing I would offer, I mean 

3 we can discuss a little bit now, if people 

4 have opinions, but I can also pull that scope 

5 back out and ask -- put some question points 

6 on it to prompt a discussion at our next 

7 meeting. If you have particular issues now, 

8 I'd be happy to make a note of them, but I'd 

9 like to pull that out and sort of resurrect it 

10 and say where does it stand, what are we 

11 doing, and --

12 MEMBER MUNN: It might be worthwhile 

13 especially in view of the fact that the 

14 statute has changed at least twice since then. 

15 MR. KATZ: But not on that point. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: I don't believe it's 

17 changed on that point though I haven't 

18 actually --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. Right. 

20 MR. KATZ: Well I could tell you 

21 that it has not changed --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It hasn't changed 

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1 on that, right. 

2 MR. KATZ: With regard to dose 

3 reconstructions. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

5 DR. ULSH: What did you call that, 

6 Mark? That document you are talking about, did 

7 you --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, it was a -- I 

9 forget exactly what it was titled but it was 

10 the dose reconstruction review scope, so it 

11 was our Board scoping document that we 

12 developed and it talked about well, amongst 

13 other things, we had sort of this concept of 

14 basic, advanced and blind reviews and now --

15 so we might want to reflect back on that 

16 because obviously we haven't stuck to that. We 

17 have sort of all -- yes, they have sort of --

18 the case speaks to you and you sort of know 

19 what level you have to do for each different 

20 case I think, and so we haven't stuck always 

21 to these sort of principles of basic and 

22 advanced, but anyway. 

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1 DR. MAURO: Well, just the thought 

2 is that -- I think when it began, when we got 

3 involved, it was really trying to get a cross4 section so that we see how dose 

5 reconstructions are being done across all 

6 these different characteristics, including 

7 types of cancer, decades, et cetera et cetera, 

8 which is still valid. 

9 But what's happening now is that we 

10 finished -- we reviewed all the procedures. I 

11 don't even know if there are -- there may be 

12 new ones coming out but we reviewed over about 

13 105, maybe more, procedures. We have reviewed 

14 just about every Site Profile and so what do 

15 we have in front of us now? We have a review 

16 of over 300 cases with who knows how many 

17 findings, some of which are quality findings, 

18 some of them are pointers for some procedures. 

19 We also have all these Site Profile reviews, 

20 all these SECs. 

21 What I'm getting at is, I think 

22 they all point to each other. In other words 

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1 what we learn on this dose reconstruction, and 

2 we are only doing one percent, remember, so we 

3 are only doing one percent, there is 30,000, 

4 so 300? Yes, we are exactly at one percent. 

5 So the idea is -- I guess what I'm 

6 putting on the table is, given that we are 

7 dealing with -- we always thought about them 

8 as separate. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We also projected 

10 for 2-1/2 percent. 

11 DR. MAURO: Oh yes. Yes. But I mean 

12 that was a number, it's a number you pick. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

14 DR. MAURO: But we always looked at 

15 oh, we are going to do dose reconstruction 

16 orders. That was a separate task, almost like 

17 its own world and there was a procedure 

18 review, which was its own world, and the Site 

19 Profile review, which even was its own world 

20 and of course now we have the SEC, where there 

21 is definitely a blend between Site Profile and 

22 SEC. 

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1 I guess I'm thinking out loud now, 

2 but there are pointers. Like when we see 

3 something here that says well, if this has to 

4 do with OTIB-17, something like that, or this 

5 particular thing has to do with a Site Profile 

6 issue as opposed to a quality issue, is there 

7 are any linkages that we should be thinking 

8 about between what we learn in our DR review 

9 and how that -- does that tell us anything 

10 about the procedure? 

11 I mean I'm trying to create 

12 linkages now that really haven't talked about 

13 before. Are these different activities that 

14 are going on separately, should we be stepping 

15 back and see how they link together and how 

16 they may feed back and forth to each other to 

17 --

18 I think Richard brought it up 

19 earlier. Let's say -- whether we have a 

20 finding from a DR review or we have a finding 

21 from a procedure review, and we start to 

22 transfer things, but you know the real big 

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1 question is, listen, we are only looking at 

2 one percent, what kind of ripple effect can 

3 this have, that is if we found this on this 

4 one case which feeds back to a particular 

5 procedure that's being affected, I guess your 

6 PER program looks at that all the time. I'm 

7 not sure the degree to which -- whenever we 

8 have a finding on this end, does it -- how 

9 does it -- and you decide whether or not you 

10 may want to redo this case or not, but it also 

11 triggers a PER process for us? 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it would 

13 depend on whether the finding led to change in 

14 guiding documents. 

15 If the finding is such that in 

16 resolution we said okay, this procedure or 

17 this Site Profile needs to be revised in this 

18 fashion, then ultimately that revision to that 

19 procedure or technical document would be what 

20 would trigger the PER and so it may be --

21 DR. MAURO: And that would bring it 

22 back to do all the cases. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: And it may be that 

2 it may get grouped with other, similar type of 

3 -- so you do one PER and see what's the impact 

4 of all these changes. Because you kind of have 

5 to do all the changes at one time. 

6 DR. MAURO: So really when all is 

7 said and done, it's the PER process that 

8 really is the glue that integrates everything. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: That pulls findings 

10 back, yes, into -- I mean that's -- well, I 

11 don't want to oversell the PER process. The 

12 PER process takes the outcomes today, the 

13 technical discussions today and applies them 

14 to things that were done before them, so I 

15 don't want to kind of oversell the integration 

16 nature of, how much does it integrate a 

17 procedure review or a Site Profile review and 

18 a DR review, those sets of information, I 

19 don't want to oversell that, but they should -

20 - but the endpoint, to the extent that any of 

21 those change guiding documents, things that 

22 tell us how to dose reconstruction, they 

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1 should all go back in to the PER process, but 

2 I don't know there's any particular 

3 integration process. 

4 DR. MAURO: Well, built into the 

5 program, what is the thing that inherently is 

6 self-correcting, that is if there is something 

7 that has been done in the past, that needs to 

8 fixed, it's the PER process that catches it, 

9 and feeds back and corrects it. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that's what is 

11 supposed to happen. 

12 DR. MAURO: Right. And maybe -- I 

13 think the machinery then is in place. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean it could be 

15 that there are things kicking around in here 

16 that need to go elsewhere that are going to 

17 have impact on Procedures that we may just go 

18 do, that the Procedures Group wouldn't 

19 necessarily know about, you know. There's that 

20 thing which would then be not an integrated 

21 effort. If the finding in here would say such 

22 and such a procedure needs to be changed or 

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1 such and such a technical information, both of 

2 them, TIB needs to be changed, and we reach 

3 resolution to change it, then that may proceed 

4 independently of the procedures review portion 

5 of the Board knowing anything about it. 

6 DR. MAURO: The reason I --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: One thing -- yes. 

8 DR. MAURO: One last point and then 

9 I'll -- see I think that this report here, 

10 it's a loop you've created here, so okay, we 

11 found some quality problems, and we tried to 

12 capture them and it was done mainly I guess 

13 through the 100 case review report, here are 

14 some of the quality problems we observed, but 

15 and I think that's certainly one side of the 

16 coin. It's very important. Here are the 

17 quality problems that need to be fixed and 

18 here's what we are going to do to fix them. 

19 But there's this other part that I 

20 think that is equally important to this --

21 what are the other problems that are counting 

22 down, systemic, that is where -- what we find 

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1 out from this Subcommittee is feeding back and 

2 driving the Site Profiles, driving the 

3 procedures, just like -- this is going to feed 

4 back and drive your QA. Do we have any way in 

5 which the Subcommittee is feeding back and 

6 informing Procedures when they transfer? Are 

7 we actually trying to go through all the --

8 from the point of view -- is there a way to 

9 call out? 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well don't forget 

11 about the way we sort of try to call out is in 

12 the summary reports and there's more than just 

13 the QA things in that summary report. We 

14 talked about the dose reconstruction report. 

15 We talked about the show your work kind of 

16 principles. 

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, show your work, 

18 yes. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Now I don't know 

20 that we have ever systematically gone back and 

21 demonstrated to what extent NIOSH -

22 DR. MAURO: Speaks to us. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Has implemented 

2 those recommendations. That's one question. 

3 But I mean I would think the important thing 

4 for us to be able to do as a Board is to make 

5 recommendations to improve the system if we 

6 think it needs it think the first step for the 

7 QA side quite frankly is to better understand 

8 the system. I mean, you can't really make 

9 recommendations to something that I'm not 

10 exactly familiar with how it works currently 

11 and so -- but I think that's where we could 

12 maybe add value at this point, is, as we sort 

13 of -- we see at lot of similar types of 

14 findings, but when we start to think of them 

15 in aggregate, there's a fair number of ones 

16 that fall into certain bins and so we say to 

17 ourselves well, there's something that needs 

18 to be fixed and I think that we need to better 

19 understand the system to know if we can 

20 recommend a fix. 

21 DR. MAURO: But that's from a 

22 quality point of view. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's the 

2 quality, but there's other things you are 

3 asking, yes. David, do you have any comments 

4 on this? I mean we don't have to -- this is 

5 going to -- I think this is a discussion that 

6 we can continue at our next Subcommittee and 

7 maybe look to refine or propose to refine our 

8 scope of our reviews, you know refine it based 

9 on what we have learned over several years and 

10 bring it back to the Board for approval or 

11 whatever, you know. 

12 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, I think 

13 that makes sense. I think it would be, as you 

14 suggested, useful to figure out what the scope 

15 of work is for this committee and then to move 

16 forward with the discussion from there. In 

17 addition to kind of understanding the quality 

18 assurance and kind of data collection 

19 procedures for NIOSH, I still, I would also be 

20 interested in a description of the internal 

21 processes. I mean, this Board should not be --

22 I wouldn't think this Board should or this 

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1 Subcommittee of the Board should have 

2 responsibility for kind of the quality 

3 assurance parts of the dose reconstruction 

4 process. I would expect that there is an 

5 internal process going on as well. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Right. 

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So that would be 

8 useful to understand a document as well as the 

9 kind of data collection process. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think what 

11 I meant to present on how the system works, it 

12 was all the way from data entry and what the 

13 dose reconstruction does to what the quality 

14 assurance steps are, the peer reviews, the et 

15 cetera, so all aspects of it. I agree. 

16 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Great. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anything else, I 

18 mean, this will be an evolving discussion and 

19 David, I don't even know if you have seen the 

20 original scope. I don't think I have looked at 

21 it in probably three or four years, so I think 

22 that would be my first step, is to sort of 

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1 pull that document out, circulate it with 

2 maybe some comments that I have included in it 

3 and then just bring it back to the 

4 Subcommittee for discussion, more discussion 

5 and possible modification. 

6 MEMBER RICHARDSON: That sounds 

7 great. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

9 Anybody else? Brad? 

10 MEMBER CLAWSON: No, I was just 

11 going to say I think we need to understand the 

12 process a little bit. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes I think it's 

14 worth revisiting especially when sitting in 

15 the wings for several years so. All right. 

16 It's 3:10. Ready for the ninth set? Can we get 

17 all the way through them in one and a half 

18 hours? What are people's time limits? 

19 MR. FARVER: I don't know that we 

20 have anything to add to the ninth set. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

22 MR. FARVER: I didn't look at it 

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1 because I didn't know that we would be looking 

2 at it for this meeting. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

4 right. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean we 

6 could perhaps talk about what we said. We said 

7 some things, right? 

8 MR. FARVER: There's a lot of 

9 written NIOSH responses in there. I just 

10 skimmed through what I had. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Do you want 

12 to -- well let me ask first, what are people's 

13 time frames for flights or anything, is there 

14 limits? 

15 MEMBER MUNN: We're scheduled until 

16 5, aren't we? 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think -- yes, 

18 we are scheduled from 7:30 to 5 so we started 

19 a little late. 

20 MEMBER MUNN: That was the room. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I was going 

22 to say let's try to go to 4:30 because as is 

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1 always the case in these meetings, especially 

2 the temperature in here is increasing --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Can we have a little 

4 break first? 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. Let's 

6 take a 10-minute break and then we'll start on 

7 matrix nine and basically get initial 

8 description from NIOSH. We're not expecting --

9 but at least they can describe what they 

10 included in --

11 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Is that 

12 something that can be circulated? 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The ninth set, 

14 can we -- has that been cleared? 

15 MR. KATZ: That would have been 

16 circulated a while ago if you have that done. 

17 DR. ULSH: It would have been April 

18 or August, 2009. 

19 MR. KATZ: Right, in August, that 

20 would have been circulated to the -- why don't 

21 you check your --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But he may not --

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1 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I'm not sure I 

2 was on the list then. 

3 MR. KATZ: Yes, yes, that's right. 

4 It may have missed you, David. 

5 DR. MAURO: So you see right now we 

6 have a matrix that has each of the issues in 

7 mind that we have developed and you have 

8 partial responses to some of those issues --

9 they exist right now. We haven't come back 

10 yet. But it certainly would be valuable to 

11 hear the -- we may be able to resolve them 

12 right here. I mean let's see what the answers 

13 are. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The responses --

15 you don't do things on the fly, right John? 

16 DR. MAURO: I do. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can I ask the 

18 name of the file, Stu, that you are working 

19 from? 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Sure, you can ask. 

21 MR. KATZ: If you find it, can you -

22 - do these have Privacy Act material or can 

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1 you send it to David? 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: These essentially 

3 never have --

4 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: A Privacy Act -

6 MR. KATZ: So if you could send them 

7 -- if you find it, you could send it to David, 

8 then he could follow along. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, okay. If I find 

10 it. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, David, 

12 well we are going to take a 10-minute break. 

13 we'll email you. Check your email. We will 

14 send this file to you. 

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Great. Thank 

16 you. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mike, do you have 

18 it or -

19 MR. KATZ: He should. He would be --

20 everybody -

21 MEMBER GIBSON: I have it Mark. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, Mike's 

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1 got it. I have something that says -- we are 

2 going to -- let's adjourn for now. 

3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

4 matter went off the record at 3:11 p.m. and 

5 resumed at 3:23 p.m.) 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, like I 

7 said, this will probably be a -- because SC&A 

8 is really, wasn't prepared to discuss these 

9 items, so it's going to be more of a -- mostly 

10 overview of NIOSH's initial responses and then 

11 we will go from there but at least we can 

12 plunge forward. 

13 MR. KATZ: Yes, and John and Doug 

14 may be able to knock some of the low-hanging 

15 fruit off. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

17 right. If they're obvious, we can take care of 

18 it, yes. Okay, so 179.1, .2. Do you want to 

19 just discuss the ones that -- just the ones 

20 where you have some feedback, right, so 179.2. 

21 Maybe as a starting point if you can give us 

22 the site and the -- yes. 

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1 MR. FARVER: Ashland Oil. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Ashland Oil? 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: So it's an AWE site. 

4 Ashland Oil, that's I believe, in fact I think 

5 it's now an SEC site if I'm not mistaken. No, 

6 Standard Oil, sorry, Standard Oil. Ashland Oil 

7 is not. The finding had to do with not using 

8 PFG photofluorography for the medical X-rays 

9 and our response is that our going in approach 

10 is that we use photofluorography at the DOE 

11 sites where they have large numbers of people 

12 at the clinic and they turn them over really 

13 quick and we haven't reached that same 

14 conclusion at all the main AWE sites. So 

15 that's our response so far. 

16 DR. MAURO: This -- we're very 

17 familiar with this, and this comes up every 

18 time we do an AWE. It's always in there, 

19 because your default was always an X-ray, a 

20 chest X-ray. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

22 DR. MAURO: And I guess this is a 

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1 judgment that you folks need to make, is that 

2 are you looking for affirmative evidence? See, 

3 with the way in which OTIB-6 and 61 read, at 

4 least in the case of DOE, it's really silent 

5 on AWEs but it is affirmative on DOE. Before a 

6 certain date unless you know otherwise, 

7 definitely, presume it's a PFG. Now, you're 

8 silent in those same documents with respect to 

9 AWEs. And I can understand why, because AWEs, 

10 you have a contract, unless the contract calls 

11 for -- this is the way I was thinking about it 

12 -- so am I correct in saying, if the contract 

13 called for X-rays and/or PFGs, you would then 

14 apply the DOE philosophy, that is we are going 

15 to assign PFG if you don't know any better. 

16 I mean, I'm trying to get to 

17 understand this. Automatically I think you 

18 always assume it's X-ray. You always give 

19 that. You give that. But you don't 

20 automatically assume it's PFG -

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

22 DR. MAURO: and it seems to me the 

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1 distinction is why? 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it had to do 

3 with some research that was done, and I'm not 

4 real familiar with it, but it had to do with 

5 standard X-ray practices at the time and that 

6 most clinics that were giving X-rays were 

7 using chest X-rays and that the 

8 photofluorography units were brought in from 

9 places to do a large number of them in a quick 

10 period of time -

11 DR. MAURO: So DOE was unique in 

12 that regard. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: DOE, we felt like --

14 DR. MAURO: They wanted it. They 

15 asked for it. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: They did a whole 

17 bunch of them. This was a way to do a lot of 

18 them quickly and so they did photofluorography 

19 and AWE is more likely actually if they have a 

20 clinic on -- if they have a medical facility 

21 on site, they just have an X-ray unit as 

22 opposed to photofluorography. That's the 

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1 thought process. I don't -- I'm not familiar 

2 with the research --

3 DR. MAURO: Okay that's very 

4 helpful. Because that's the reason I say that, 

5 I mean, that's just something we talk around 

6 the table and I could -- I just presume that's 

7 probably the case. But I always bring up that 

8 finding, every time. 

9 DR. ULSH: Well, and I think the 

10 main -- a common use of PFGs, since they are 

11 mobile units, was for TB screening and that's 

12 why they brought them on site, to run all the 

13 employees through. Now if you think of an AWE, 

14 and I don't know if there's a typical one, but 

15 frequently they are small operations. 

16 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

17 DR. ULSH: And it wouldn't be 

18 justified to bring screening on site like that 

19 for a few people. But I mean, if we do have 

20 affirmative evidence that --

21 DR. MAURO: Then you do it. 

22 DR. ULSH: Of course. But that's not 

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1 the default assumption. 

2 DR. MAURO: I mean as far as this 

3 issue being resolved, the degree to which I 

4 think that statement could be made even on a 

5 generic basis in OTIB-6 or in 61, or be stated 

6 in the Site Profile for an AWE site, which it 

7 really isn't. We made the judgment that at 

8 this facility, PFG was not either required --

9 in other words the degree to which you could 

10 say that -- then we could sort of -- then we 

11 could sort of -- then we don't have to put 

12 this comment forward. Because right now --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can I -

14 DR. MAURO: Do you see the --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can I propose an 

16 action? 

17 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: NIOSH will 

19 provide the background study information that 

20 indicated that the standard chest X-ray was 

21 the practice of the time. If acceptable to 

22 SC&A and the Subcommittee. NIOSH will modify 

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1 TIB-6 to reflect this as a standard practice 

2 in the dose reconstructions. In other words, 

3 Stu said there's background information, he's 

4 not sure what it is, I think we need to just 

5 get a better flavor -- yes, okay, we see how 

6 you are supporting this. 

7 DR. MAURO: We just resolved one of 

8 your comments. 

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, TIB-6 seems to be 

10 the appropriate place --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Assuming we all 

12 agree with that then you just modify TIB-6. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: That's the right place 

14 for it to go. Otherwise you have to lay your 

15 hands over each TBD that you've got. 

16 MR. KATZ: I think this was 

17 discussed, this very same discussion occurred 

18 during the TBD-6001 Work Group last week, in 

19 reference -- we just had this discussion --

20 yes we did -- to one of the AWEs covered their 

21 Hooker or whichever -- we had this exact same 

22 discussion and the same I think recommendation 

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1 was made there so this is fine, but I think we 

2 may have already gotten a sort of tasking for 

3 DCAS on this in that Work Group. 

4 DR. MAURO: So does this transfer to 

5 --

6 MR. KATZ: This is fine, it's just a 

7 double hitter. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it might be 

9 a little redundant, but yes. 

10 MR. KATZ: It's not hurting 

11 anything. It's fine. 

12 DR. MAURO: OTIB-6? 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Next one we 

15 have a comment on or response on --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is 180.1. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: 180.1. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What's this site? 

19 MR. SIEBERT: Bridgeport Brass. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Hold on. 180.1. 

21 MR. FARVER: Oh, I had 181. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. So it's 

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1 Bridgeport Brass. Okay. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. The finding is 

3 reviewer questions accuracy of the employment 

4 period identified by NIOSH/DOL and our 

5 response is that we don't identify the 

6 employment period that's identified by DOL. 

7 Apparently there is some comment, maybe from 

8 the employer, that they have transferred to 

9 another site, to another AWE site and so DOL 

10 didn't have that information. I presume we 

11 sent that information to DOL for them to see 

12 if they could verify it, so that would be for 

13 us to follow up and make sure that we did 

14 that. 

15 Because normally when someone tells 

16 us that like in an interview or if we get 

17 information along those lines we say well, we 

18 tell them first of all, you need to get 

19 information about that to DOL and then we also 

20 will let the DOL know. But our telling DOL 

21 that the claimant told us that is not going to 

22 change it. And DOL will take no action because 

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1 we told them that. It's incumbent on the 

2 claimant to get the information to DOL in 

3 order to get the employment changed and we 

4 tell them that too. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Doug or John, I 

6 don't know if you want to --

7 DR. MAURO: Well that's not --

8 that's not a Site Profile issue. That 

9 basically is an issue dealing with this 

10 particular case. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's a case 

12 specific. 

13 DR. MAURO: It's very case specific 

14 and it's almost not in your hands so you are 

15 just passing on information. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: When people tell us 

17 that we say we'll tell DOL but you need to 

18 tell them and to give them the information 

19 because they won't -- just because we tell 

20 them you said it, that's not going to change 

21 anything. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well is there any 

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1 indication in this case though that NIOSH did 

2 identify it and relay it to DOL? I don't know 

3 the issue. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know if we 

5 would capture that or not. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right okay. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: There might be. 

8 Let's see. We can look for evidence of having 

9 done that but --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, not fully 

11 understanding, from the summary so it's hard 

12 to --

13 MR. FARVER: Yes I don't understand 

14 what exactly prompted the finding. The only 

15 statement in there is that the worker may have 

16 continued working at the Seymour facility. 

17 DR. ULSH: It might have been CATI. 

18 I don't know. 

19 DR. MAURO: It could have been CATI. 

20 Yes. 

21 MR. FARVER: But there's nothing 

22 down there in the CATI section of our report. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I mean I 

2 guess I would -- I don't want to be hastily --

3 I mean we don't do anything hasty, but I think 

4 SC&A should look at it closer and --

5 DR. MAURO: Well I mean we made a 

6 finding that the time period over which you 

7 have derived this fellow's dose needed to be 

8 compatible with what we know to be his 

9 employment period, or believe to be his 

10 employment period, right, is that what the 

11 issue us? 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, there's 

13 actually just a suspicion. 

14 DR. MAURO: A suspicion. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Not even a 

16 belief, there's a suspicion about it. 

17 DR. MAURO: I mean it will be in the 

18 write-up, the basis for it, I'll have to look 

19 at it. 

20 MR. SIEBERT: There seems to be an 

21 incongruity between the worker's period of 

22 employment at Havens Laboratory and the 

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1 operational period of the laboratory. The 

2 worker may have continued working at the 

3 Seymour facility. In any event this worker was 

4 employed at the Havens Laboratory during the 

5 entire time period the facility was involved 

6 in experimental uranium work. As a result of 

7 the worker's employment at the plant, the 

8 worker may have experienced external and 

9 internal exposures from working with and in 

10 the vicinity of uranium and thorium. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, so that's not 

12 a DOL question, is it? Isn't that a question 

13 of the amount of time you applied to the dose 

14 reconstruction? Doesn't that seem to be --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I couldn't tell from 

16 that what it was. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know. 

18 MR. FARVER: It's not clear. 

19 MEMBER MUNN: It's still a DOL 

20 question. DOL has to identify whether this 

21 person did or did not transfer to another AWE 

22 and what the total period of employment was. 

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1 MR. SIEBERT: Right. The claim was 

2 assessed with the employment as given to us by 

3 DOL. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Okay. Yes. 

5 DR. ULSH: I mean, I agree that if 

6 we thought that there should be additional 

7 information then we should tell DOL. But we 

8 can't -- that's not a DR finding. I mean we 

9 did the DR in accordance with the employment 

10 information provided by DOL. 

11 DR. MAURO: I could --

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No but I think it 

13 should have triggered at least NIOSH to 

14 inquire with DOL. 

15 DR. ULSH: I understand and it might 

16 and we can check on that, but that's not in 

17 and of itself, that's not a deficiency. Even 

18 if we didn't do that, that's not a deficiency 

19 with the DR. We have to do the DR with the 

20 employment information that DOL gave us. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: See, there were 

22 things in this claim file that should tell us 

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1 a little bit about what the claimant said 

2 about the employment and one is their 

3 application to the program, the original claim 

4 that they filed, they list their facility, 

5 they covered where they did their work at, 

6 it's listed on their claim and then 

7 theoretically there was a telephone call that 

8 said, that asked among other things is this 

9 the actual employment. 

10 So I mean we'll see, we'll go back 

11 and look but there should be some evidence 

12 somewhere of where this came from, and I 

13 couldn't read from the finding whether --

14 there's more discussion after the statement of 

15 the finding so it might be there, but it 

16 didn't really understand from that exactly why 

17 they felt like there was as reason to question 

18 them. 

19 DR. MAURO: He could have left that 

20 facility at that time, went somewhere else 

21 where he could have gotten some exposure there 

22 also that may have been something. I think 

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1 this is -- this rings a bell and therefore 

2 there is some dose that this experienced not 

3 while he was at Bridgeport Brass but 

4 approximately after he left and went some 

5 place else that wasn't captured, and that 

6 would go towards his dose reconstruction that 

7 should have been. I think that's the point. 

8 Now, and if that's the case then maybe there's 

9 something else that might have been missed. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll go look and 

11 see what we can sort out on it, but today we 

12 are not --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I'm not 

14 asking that, I'm just trying to understand it 

15 better. But I think SC&A should look back at 

16 this one. I think both need to look back. 

17 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You know, review 

19 this, because we need to understand what the 

20 real basis was. 

21 DR. MAURO: Doug, if you could keep 

22 track of those and just kick it back to me, 

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1 because that sounds like one that will come 

2 back to me. 

3 MR. FARVER: Oh yes, you are going 

4 to get all the AWEs. 

5 DR. MAURO: I'll pick them up in 

6 there. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, the next 

8 one we say anything about was 183.1 and the 

9 finding is the model external photon dose 

10 appear to be bounding but transparency is 

11 lacking regarding calculational details in the 

12 DR and in OTIB-4. So OTIB-4 is apparently what 

13 was used, which is a complex-wide 

14 overestimating for AWEs. 

15 NIOSH agrees on the lack of clarity 

16 in the OTIB on how the organ DCF were applied 

17 to develop the dose in the dose table. NIOSH 

18 agrees with SC&A that the dose is bounding. 

19 The next version of the OTIB, which has been 

20 issued, did not have the organ DCF already 

21 built into the dose tables, dose 

22 reconstruction is applied then to the values 

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1 in this layer version. 

2 So this issue has been addressed, 

3 the issue being lack of clarity in the OTIB. 

4 NIOSH does not agree that the organ selection 

5 was unclear. The end of the second paragraph 

6 of the dose reconstruction overview section 

7 states the external dose to the kidney was 

8 determined by using the dose to the liver, 

9 following the guidance in OTIB-0005. 

10 We can't say, I mean, I'm not 

11 expecting a response. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Right. 

13 Sounds like we've had something related to 

14 this but -

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, 183 --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes we'll just 

17 skip --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Two is our golden 

19 oldie, that yes, we agree, we screwed up. 

20 Okay, 183.3 is the photofluorography AWE 

21 question again. The same one we talked about 

22 earlier. 

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1 MR. FARVER: You could probably 

2 close out 183.2. I mean there's not anything 

3 more to do on that. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes I mean 

5 everything is done on .2 that we are going to 

6 do. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So give me a 

8 closeout statement. What is it? It's NIOSH has 

9 revised --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Discontinued its 

11 practice. I mean that's the using OTIB-4 for 

12 compensable findings. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes, yes, yes. 

14 That's closed. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 183.4. Dose 

16 from external surface contamination may be 

17 based on modeling assumptions that are not 

18 claimant-favorable. We refer to this as a 

19 global issue but I think we may want to take 

20 another look at that because I think a lot of 

21 this has been sorted out in TIB -- was that 

22 TIB-70? 

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1 DR. MAURO: So this is external 

2 exposure to surface contamination? 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: This is dose from 

4 external surface contamination may be based on 

5 modeling assumptions that are not claimant6 favorable. It doesn't say whether it's --

7 DR. MAURO: Okay, this is the 

8 accumulation, this is the settling velocity. 

9 We have resolved that. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Resolved somewhere 

11 else but we need to update our response. 

12 DR. MAURO: That issue has been 

13 resolved generically in our procedure -- OTIB 

14 review of the -- I'm trying to remember -- the 

15 one that has accumulation on the surfaces. 

16 That might be TBD-6000. 

17 Because this is where you have a 

18 0.00075 meters per second settling down 

19 accumulation and we had a question that you 

20 really shouldn't do it that way but then you 

21 proved it by showing Adley. 

22 We did this as a generic -- this is 

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1 an issue that will close out probably 20 or 30 

2 findings just like that. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: So we are going to 

4 change our response. 

5 DR. MAURO: We've closed based on 

6 global resolution. You may want to make 

7 reference to David Allen's White Paper which 

8 proved that that works. He put out a White 

9 Paper on the subject. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I remember 

11 that. That's separate from the -- I was mildly 

12 convinced. I happen to have the Adley report 

13 with me. 

14 DR. MAURO: I was surprised. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anyway. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. We did it. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You should check 

18 to see if that's finding is closed in the 

19 procedures. I don't think it's closed. 

20 MEMBER MUNN: I don't think it was. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think there 

22 might be a hold-out vote. I think I know who 

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1 he is. No, maybe I went with that one. Maybe I 

2 finally was convinced on that one. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, 185.2. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Hold on, can I go 

5 back to 183.3 I missed because I was trying to 

6 catch up with --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 183.3 is yes, 

8 PFGs at AWEs -

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: 179.2. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So bear with me. 

12 I'm just going to copy that same -- okay. 

13 And John, you think this 183.4, I 

14 know the discussion, it was a trust enclosed 

15 in TBD-6000 discussions or in the procedures? 

16 MEMBER MUNN: I can't remember which 

17 place we did it but we have a procedure. There 

18 is a procedure in which this is specifically 

19 addressed and quantified. 

20 DR. MAURO: And we went through it 

21 and a White Paper was written and I'm pretty 

22 sure it was TBD-6000 and David Allen wrote a 

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322 

1 White Paper. Because my main -- I find it hard 

2 to believe that the only way in which surfaces 

3 could get contaminated at a uranium handling 

4 facility is just from the small, five-micron 

5 particle settling out of the air. I had this 

6 model in my head that the guy was over there 

7 with a lathe, and big particles are flying all 

8 over the place, but it turns out, we went to 

9 the Adley report, where they were doing all 

10 that and we actually had deposition rates and 

11 David did the calculations and we checked them 

12 and they were right on target. In fact the way 

13 in which you modeled that deposition velocity 

14 resulted in a slight overestimate. So we -- I 

15 was very surprised to tell you the truth. But 

16 SC&A's recommendation is that issue is 

17 resolved, whether or not it's still open, you 

18 know, that's a different matter. 

19 MEMBER MUNN: No, we have resolved 

20 it. 

21 DR. MAURO: We did resolve it. You 

22 found it there? 

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1 MEMBER MUNN: No. No. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think my 

3 hesitation -- I might have finally given in on 

4 that one, but my hesitation was the Adley 

5 report was one -- it was this is all based on 

6 one study in the -- late, early 50s. 

7 DR. MAURO: 50s. It was done at the 

8 uranium metal melt facility in Hanford where 

9 they study the problem. 

10 MEMBER MUNN: It was quite thorough. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Again, that was 

12 my hesitation. I might have given in. So I 

13 would just say SC&A agrees then well, if Wanda 

14 can sign that I could say closed in Procedures 

15 Subcommittee and put the procedure number. 

16 Let's move on while Wanda is looking for that. 

17 183 -- no, no more in 183. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I think the next one 

19 is 185.2. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: The finding failed 

22 to properly account for model photon doses. 

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1 Our response is I think that SC&A do not 

2 provide the details of the MCNP calculation 

3 therefore NIOSH cannot comment on why there is 

4 a difference in the calculated values. 

5 DR. MAURO: Which site was this? 

6 MR. FARVER: Huntington Pilot Plant. 

7 Has to do with the enriched uranium in the 

8 bird cage. 

9 DR. MAURO: Oh, the bird cage model. 

10 Yes, sure I remember that. Bob Anigstein made 

11 a run, check your numbers, we did not get your 

12 numbers. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So can SC&A 

14 provide you a calculation? 

15 DR. MAURO: Let's mark that down, 

16 we'll provide our -- just send them over, 

17 we'll get to show you -

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's an SC&A 

19 action, to provide their --

20 DR. MAURO: Yes, I think we ended up 

21 with a higher dose than you guys. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 185.5. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: 185.5 is post2 operational intakes from ingestion were not 

3 explicitly included in the dose 

4 reconstruction. Our answer is, post5 operational intakes are covered in the 

6 residual section. The TBD indicates that the 

7 annual dose to the maximally exposed organ was 

8 less than one millirem and therefore was not 

9 included. When the ingestion intakes are run, 

10 all the committed dose equivalents are less 

11 than one millirem. 

12 DR. MAURO: We'd have to look at 

13 that. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: And we've got some 

15 we didn't say anything about. Okay, we're up 

16 to 186.1. The internal doses are likely to 

17 have been understated. Now certainly there's 

18 more to it than that. Our answer was the claim 

19 was compensated based on the dose assigned so 

20 there was no need to determine if additional 

21 exposure may have occurred. So essentially, we 

22 terminated the dose reconstructions because we 

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326 

1 had a compensable claim. 

2 DR. MAURO: The only thing I would 

3 say is that when you -- normally do the 

4 calculation you would stop at that point and 

5 compensate, but you may have included the dose 

6 for whatever the pathway was and we reviewed 

7 it because it was there and maybe had a 

8 comment on it. When you cut the calculation 

9 short, we are not critical. We don't say you 

10 shouldn't have done this. But anyway so I'd 

11 have to look at it. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes take a look and 

13 see and if there's more to it let us know. 

14 MR. FARVER: It doesn't look like it 

15 was cut short. It just looks like we didn't 

16 agree with the way it was done. 

17 DR. MAURO: Do you know what it was? 

18 MR. FARVER: Linde Ceramics. 

19 DR. MAURO: Oh, Linde -- from what 

20 pathway? You can't tell? It wasn't a 

21 resuspension factor issue? 

22 MR. FARVER: Has to do with assumed 

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1 dust exposure of 33 MAC may not have captured 

2 the upper bound of the airborne dust exposure 

3 at the Linde Site from 1947 onwards, so there 

4 was a little disagreement in the air 

5 concentration level, things like that. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 187.3. 

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Can I go back to 

8 that? Are we closing that because it has no 

9 impact on this dose reconstruction? It's a TBD 

10 issue is it not? 

11 MR. FARVER: We didn't close it, did 

12 we? 

13 DR. MAURO: Could I just point out 

14 something? A lot has developed on the Site 

15 Profile for Linde and the methods that you may 

16 have employed at that time may be somewhat 

17 different than what has been adopted because 

18 you did make some revisions to the Linde way 

19 in which you are calculating the doses I 

20 believe. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I think so. 

22 DR. MAURO: And so --

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: It depends on what 

2 time the claimant is from really. 

3 DR. MAURO: We'd have to look at 

4 that. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, so we'd have 

6 to look at that. 

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: My point is once 

8 again, this is not a dose reconstruction 

9 error. It was done correctly per the 

10 information that was in the dose 

11 reconstructor's hands at the time. If there's 

12 an issue with the TBD that's been addressed or 

13 so on and so forth, I still -- and this was 

14 already compensated, I don't see where -- I 

15 guess I don't see the purpose of leaving it 

16 open. I mean that's --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Without the issue 

18 with the Site Profile remains open here 

19 because those are things -- that's part of the 

20 review. It's not only did we follow the 

21 procedure but are the procedures or the 

22 instructions for doing the dose reconstruction 

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1 correct. That's part of all these DR reviews. 

2 So that wouldn't close it. It might close 

3 because of a compensable claim if you think it 

4 should be higher. 

5 DR. MAURO: Let me raise a dilemma 

6 that SC&A has always had in doing our DR 

7 reviews. When we review a DOE site, we review 

8 it explicitly against your own procedures, did 

9 you follow your procedures. And any findings 

10 we might have related to your Site Profile, we 

11 keep those separate. Okay, we just make a 

12 list, here are the findings we had on your 

13 Site Profile, Savannah River, and then the 

14 review goes on to see if in fact you followed 

15 your own procedures, whether or not we agree 

16 with those procedures. 

17 Now, for AWEs we don't do that 

18 because AWEs are a different beast. They are 

19 all based on the Site Profile, so we will have 

20 findings. In DR review for an AWE facility, 

21 that goes toward the Site Profile. It would be 

22 a finding. So you are right, Scott, what you 

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1 are saying is correct. Most -- just about 

2 every AWE review that I do, it's basically a 

3 comment on the Site Profile, when I do -- so 

4 does that mean do we want to address it here? 

5 Do you want to transfer it over? But there 

6 isn't a Site Profile review. In other words, 

7 there are an awful lot of exposure matrices 

8 that we haven't reviewed, but I review them 

9 when I do the case, so what else -- I mean 

10 there's no place to have a finding. 

11 MR. SIEBERT: No, no, I agree, I'm 

12 backing off because I was thinking that there 

13 was a Linde TBD review. 

14 DR. MAURO: Oh there is. 

15 MR. SIEBERT: And if there was not, 

16 then I make no sense. Never mind. 

17 DR. MAURO: But there is. There is a 

18 Linde and what I'm -- all I'm trying to say is 

19 that whenever I have an AWE site, I review 

20 that including its Site Profile, and if there 

21 are things in the Site Profile that I feel as 

22 deficient, I will make that a finding and put 

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1 it in. One could argue I should just simply 

2 say this is a Site Profile issue but I don't, 

3 because usually that's all there is. There are 

4 no bioassay data. There's just the -- so. And 

5 we have been arguing -- because then there are 

6 no comments on any AWEs because they are all 

7 based on some generic protocol laid out and 

8 therefore the only thing there is, Site 

9 Profile, but we are not reviewing the Site 

10 Profiles. So where do you capture it? 

11 Sometimes we do, sometimes we 

12 don't. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. right, right. 

14 DR. MAURO: So what do we do? 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think this is 

16 open in both regards. I see Doug -- I don't 

17 know that we have consensus that SC&A agrees 

18 that it was done right based on the data you 

19 had. 

20 MR. FARVER: I don't know. You 

21 really have to go back and look at the cases. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So I think 

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1 we need to leave it open for both those 

2 issues. 

3 DR. MAURO: The question I have for 

4 this group here though is, now that we have a 

5 finding on a case for Linde. Should that --

6 whatever that issue is, it is, should that be 

7 handled here or should that be handled in the 

8 Linde which is meeting on Friday? The Linde 

9 Work Group. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I just said 

11 that Doug is shaking his head when he said 

12 that -- when he heard that it was done 

13 correctly based on the data you had. I'm not 

14 sure that you don't have more to look at. If 

15 there's an existing Work Group, we've always 

16 said defer the Site Profile issues to the Work 

17 Group, if they're Site Profile issues. 

18 DR. MAURO: In this case there is. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There might be a 

20 case question here. 

21 MR. FARVER: There might be a case 

22 question. 

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1 MR. SIEBERT: I just want to point 

2 out, the summary conclusions for this one, 

3 from SC&A said, in general, SC&A found that 

4 the dose reconstruction report followed NIOSH 

5 policies and procedures and the calculations 

6 were performed correctly. 

7 Our review identified one issue 

8 related to findings previously identified in 

9 the TBD. This issue did not have a large 

10 impact on the dose reconstruction for this 

11 individual. 

12 My issue of when I read the 

13 conclusion it says there isn't a problem with 

14 this. It was a TBD issue. And if I'm being a 

15 pain, stop me. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, no, no I 

17 think it's simple enough to answer though. I 

18 think we can just say Doug find out. If that's 

19 the case, if that's the case, and we'll just 

20 refer it to the TBD group, or to the Work 

21 Group. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: The answer today is 

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1 that SC&A hasn't seen this thing --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right. I 

3 don't want to do this on the fly and get it 

4 wrong. That's all I'm saying Scott. If that's 

5 right then we'll just refer it to the Linde 

6 Work Group and it'll be out of this committee. 

7 MR. SIEBERT: That's fine. 

8 DR. MAURO: Just to put a period at 

9 the end of it all, let's say it turns out that 

10 the comment -- I'm sorry, I'm sorry --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let it go. 

12 DR. MAURO: I can't let it go. If 

13 the comment is on a case that is based upon an 

14 exposure matrix that we have never reviewed 

15 when it doesn't --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's different. 

17 DR. MAURO: That's different. I 

18 wanted to hear that. That's all. That's 

19 different and then it is dealt with here. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

21 DR. MAURO: Good. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what we 

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1 said. That's what we have -- I've called mini 

2 Site Profile reviews, if we have an existing 

3 Work Group though looking at the Site Profile, 

4 then we defer to that. That's sort of been 

5 what we have --

6 DR. MAURO: Good. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The policy, maybe 

8 not written or spelled out but yes. 

9 DR. MAURO: I just wanted to hear it 

10 again, okay. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 187.3. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, finding is 

13 that there is no indication in NIOSH records 

14 or the dose reconstruction report that the 

15 EE's employment started in 1949 was 

16 investigated or considered. Our response was 

17 that DOL verified employment using social 

18 security records beginning in 1950. Film badge 

19 records were found for the employee in 1949. 

20 So that year was added during the assessment. 

21 There's no records for verifying before 1949 

22 and besides that's a DOL thing anyway. So you 

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1 guys can see what you think. 

2 MR. FARVER: And this is based on 

3 some information that was in the CATI report 

4 apparently. The EE went into the military, and 

5 on leaving the military returned to Vitro 

6 Manufacturing Company in 1950. So that's where 

7 the little -- that's what prompted the 

8 finding. 

9 So I don't know how you confirm or 

10 invalidate something like that. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: We don't, if the DOL 

12 doesn't verify the employment, we can't do 

13 anything about it anyway. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So the covered 

15 period was prior to `49. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: This was, the 

17 covered period started very early I think. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. But the 

19 employment period was not back to the earliest 

20 date of the covered period right, that was the 

21 issue? 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: And that was the way 

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337 

1 would read this. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They are 

3 questioning whether he was employed, he or she 

4 was employed. Okay. And that again to me would 

5 be a question of did NIOSH follow up with DOL 

6 at all because I think from the claimant's 

7 perspective, they just want, and I think we 

8 all just want to get the right answer for the 

9 claimant so you know, you can say well not my 

10 job or you can at least say we`ll we can't 

11 define that but we can at least notify DOL. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: We can do as much as 

13 we can do. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, exactly, 

15 and that's what I think we want to know, is 

16 did NIOSH look at this enough to say yes, this 

17 might be an issue and DOL needs to answer this 

18 for us. 

19 I would say the action would be for 

20 NIOSH to determine whether any communication 

21 with DOL was achieved or whatever. 

22 That fair Stu? 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Sure, I'll see what 

2 we've got on it. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: And just because 

5 it's such a novelty I will mention that there 

6 are now three cases in a row where there were 

7 no findings. How did that happen? 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh wow, yes. 

9 MR. FARVER: We were having a bad 

10 day. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They renumbered 

12 them. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay the next 

14 finding is 192.1. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 192.1 or 193? 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I got 192. The 

17 finding is NIOSH underestimated the greater 

18 than 15 keV electron shallow dose for 1955 and 

19 our response is essentially you are right, 

20 it's 60 millirem, it was submitted from data 

21 entry and we have a slight increase in PoC of 

22 this compensable case so it's not going to 

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1 have any effect on the case. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I guess SC&A's 

3 point would be this is a QA issue, right? 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I mean that's 

5 what it involved. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I assume you 

7 would accept that right, yes, yes. No further 

8 action. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, specifically 

10 it's going to get caught in our general 

11 debate. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Next is 192.2. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You threw me off 

15 because you went with black font on these and 

16 the other ones are in red. Is it that way on 

17 your screen? 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: You know what, I 

19 have such a hard time seeing red because of my 

20 color vision that I don't --

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I put stuff in red 

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340 

1 for other people's benefits, not for my own. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: 192.2, the finding 

4 is basis for intakes not included in records. 

5 Our response is the file translated input to 

6 IREP included the results of the IMBA runs 

7 performed in the bioassay results provided by 

8 DOE. While, the 25 IMBA files were 

9 inadvertently left out of the claim file, the 

10 results can be recreated based on the file 

11 identified above. So, I guess the finding was 

12 that the IMBA records weren't there and the 

13 response was that well, the IMBA files weren't 

14 there but there's enough information in the 

15 calculated input to IREP that you can tell 

16 what was run on IMBA, apparently is what the 

17 response is, so that's just for you guys to 

18 evaluate if that's really true when you look 

19 at it. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Is this --

21 I'm not sure if this is essentially a show the 

22 work thing or --

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I have -- well we 

2 have to go back on this. There might be more 

3 to the findings. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, okay. 

5 MR. FARVER: I believe what happened 

6 was the IMBA runs were not included, as you 

7 said, and therefore you could not verify the 

8 intakes. They were calculated. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So is there 

10 an action on anybody's part? NIOSH -

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Well I mean --

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you provide 

13 those? 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I think SC&A 

15 should look and see if the file that we saved, 

16 you know there is a file there that says these 

17 are the intakes. 

18 DR. MAURO: There's enough 

19 information for us to do that. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: And what the 

21 response says was that file includes enough 

22 information, and not only includes the intake, 

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1 it includes what got us to the intake. Now I 

2 don't know if that's true or not. That's what 

3 we conclude from this. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. All 

5 right. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: If not then the IMBA 

7 intakes presumably should be made available. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

9 MR. FARVER: Well, in general, 

10 should they be included in the record? 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Well I think that's 

12 part of show your work, I think so although 

13 there's 25 of them but I'm not exactly sure 

14 what that means. Sounds like an intimidating 

15 number of IMBA runs. 

16 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Sounds like this 

18 thing took them like a month to do. But okay, 

19 we'll go find out. For right now, I think it's 

20 provide a response --

21 MR. FARVER: Sure, sure, these all 

22 go back to me and we'll have responses by the 

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343 

1 next meeting I hope. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay and here's an 

3 observation we responded to. Observation 

4 number 2. SC&A believes that NIOSH 

5 overestimated the skin dose. Our response is 

6 the entrance skin dose was assigned based in 

7 insufficient information regarding the exact 

8 location of the skin cancer of the scalp and 

9 the position of the head during the X-ray 

10 procedure. Project guidance at the time of the 

11 evaluation indicated that entrance skin dose 

12 was to be assigned. The assumed minimal 

13 collimation of the X-ray beam was a factor in 

14 making the claimant-favorable decision. 

15 So apparently with a cancer on the 

16 scalp, we used the entrance dose which would 

17 mean that we considered it in the beam and the 

18 observation was the head's not really in the 

19 beam of an X-ray and this would have to be a 

20 particularly old claim for our response to 

21 matter but early on, we hear repeatedly that 

22 they just didn't collimate X-ray machines 

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1 early on the way they do now, and so you could 

2 very well have had a broader beam and we don't 

3 really know where on the scalp. It could have 

4 been here on the scalp. 

5 DR. MAURO: This case might have 

6 been done before OTIB - PROC 61 --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: May have been. 

8 DR. MAURO: Which provided a very 

9 nice way in which you could adjust for where 

10 the skin cancer was observed and then maybe 

11 they just went ahead and went with the --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: It may have just 

13 been they said we don't know for sure if it--

14 maybe it's here or maybe it's here we don't 

15 really know. 

16 DR. MAURO: So you gave it closer to 

17 the beam. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's just an 

19 observation anyway which I always had a hard 

20 time understanding how we treat them in our 

21 matrices, but any comment on that Doug or do 

22 you want to follow up on it or? I mean it 

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1 looks like --

2 MR. FARVER: It's an observation. We 

3 can probably let it go. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I mean do we 

5 know --

6 DR. MAURO: We overestimated it. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes 

8 overestimated. 

9 DR. MAURO: And this was 

10 compensated. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Was it 

12 compensated? Anybody know if 192--? 

13 MR. SIEBERT: Over 50 percent. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Over 50 percent? 

15 DR. ULSH: Is it like way over, is 

16 this the thing that put it over? 

17 MR. SIEBERT: No, I mean, well, it's 

18 hard to say what put it over, but it was at 

19 50.22 percent. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but it's 

21 probably not complete. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it could 

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1 have been partial. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: You have a poorly3 collimated beam and your decision is, if I 

4 decide it's collimated, and I didn't expose 

5 his head he's out, but it could very well not 

6 have been collimated and the cancer could have 

7 been here and we don't know. We don't know if 

8 it's in or out. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do we know when 

10 this was done relative to PROC 61? 

11 MR. SIEBERT: Yes it was done in 

12 September of `05. Procedure 60 was initially 

13 available in 2004 but there were huge updates 

14 and I believe this is one of the updates that 

15 happened in 2006. It was relatively generic 

16 prior to that and I think what Doug was 

17 talking about the nice explanation on how you 

18 can figure out between, that happened after 

19 2005. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I guess the 

21 one issue, I mean we always focus on the ones 

22 below 50, this is one that is very slightly 

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1 over 50 where we are being too claimant2 favorable, which is something we haven't dealt 

3 with a lot in our discussions but -

4 MEMBER MUNN: Increasingly. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

6 DR. ULSH: So what's the status? 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not sure. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Well I wouldn't 

9 close it. Let's let SC&A look at it and made a 

10 response. 

11 MR. FARVER: It's an observation. It 

12 was probably made an observation because it 

13 was a compensated case. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I think we 

15 should probably say since the time that this 

16 dose reconstruction was completed, PROC 61 has 

17 -- I think we might want to reference that 

18 PROC 61 is the updated way of doing this dose 

19 estimate. 

20 DR. MAURO: Which could have 

21 resulted in a lower dose but at the time it 

22 was the right way to do it. You're not going 

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1 to reverse that decision. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You're not going 

3 to reverse it, right. It's just pointing it 

4 out, pointing it out that it may have -- yes. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Did you want to 

6 write that or did you want to -

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll try to write 

8 it. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Good. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You said `05 it 

11 was done in `05, Scott? 

12 MR. SIEBERT: Correct. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's PROC 0061, 

14 right? Okay. All right. Okay. And there's no 

15 further action on this. So is the next one --

16 are you okay to move on? 

17 DR. ULSH: No further action, did 

18 you say? 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, he said no 

20 further action. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: It's an observation. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, 193.1. The 

3 finding is failure to properly reference 

4 procedure used in determining the photon dose. 

5 Our response is we agree that OTIB-17 should 

6 have been referenced but as SC&A points out, 

7 the correct method from this document was 

8 used. So we used the method from the document 

9 without referencing the document. That's what 

10 we said. I guess that SC&A can go check and 

11 make sure that's true since no one has seen 

12 these for so long. 

13 MR. FARVER: No, that's okay, we can 

14 close that one. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, that's 

17 closed. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: And 194.1. The 

19 finding is unable to confirm source of photon 

20 uncertainty applied to the skin cancer. Our 

21 response describes the origin of the photon 

22 uncertainty and says that the correction 

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1 factor of 1.43 is a combination of two 

2 correction factors. For section 6.5 -- I'm not 

3 sure what -- there is a correction factor for 

4 film badges pre-1985 of 10 percent for low 

5 energy photons and that means below 250 keV. 

6 The second factor is the standard dosimeter 

7 uncertainty for film badges is 30 percent. 

8 So in this case, for both the less 

9 than 30 and the 30 to 250 keV energy bands, 

10 you have 1.1 which accounts for the 10 percent 

11 underestimate times 1.3 which is the 

12 uncertainty. That gives you 1.43. But the 

13 greater than 250 keV energy band, you just 

14 have 1.43. So it's a blended -- it's not the 

15 same for all the energy bands. 

16 DR. MAURO: I got it. I got it. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: So that's our 

18 response. 

19 MR. FARVER: I'll just go back and 

20 check. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That's worth 

22 reviewing. But you don't know, for section 

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1 6.5, it's not TIB-10. 

2 MR. FARVER: Automatically it's a 

3 TBD. 

4 MR. SIEBERT: It's the Fernald TBD. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Fernald TBD, 

6 okay. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: See, 194.2, the 

8 finding is the annual X-ray exam doses are not 

9 assigned and reviewer could not reproduce the 

10 occupational medical dose. Response is, SC&A 

11 is correct. This report is an error. The 

12 employee's X-rays of record were applied not 

13 the annual X-ray. So apparently the report 

14 said we used annual 

15 X-rays when in fact we used the actual X-ray. 

16 Kind of a QA sort of thing. 

17 DR. MAURO: I've got a question. 

18 When you have the X-ray records for an 

19 employee and let's say it's less than once per 

20 year, whatever you have you have, but if you 

21 went to the once per year you would give him a 

22 higher dose. What do you normally do? Do you 

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1 normally just go with the limited number of 

2 measurements or automatically just default to 

3 the higher one? 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: We use the X-ray 

5 records. 

6 DR. MAURO: You go with the X-ray 

7 records. Okay. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, especially if 

9 you are doing a best estimate. I don't know if 

10 this is a best estimate or not but in general 

11 there's a preference for best estimates unless 

12 the overestimate saves you a lot of time and 

13 so we use the medical record. 

14 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, and this was a 46 

15 percent so it would have been best estimate. 

16 DR. ULSH: It's not clear to me that 

17 that's the situation here. It might be. But it 

18 might be that the actual record gave it more 

19 frequently. I don't know without looking at 

20 it. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, there is more 

22 to our response, it looks like. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, that's the 

2 next finding. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, okay. All right. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Does SC&A need to 

5 look back to this? 

6 MR. FARVER: Well, what we can glean 

7 out of this is the DR report said that X-rays 

8 were calculated annually but in fact they 

9 weren't. It was only for 12 of the 17 years of 

10 employment because that's what there were 

11 records for. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Ah, yes. 

13 MR. FARVER: But the tables in the 

14 TBD say to use a certain frequency annually so 

15 which do you go by? The records or the TBD? 

16 And --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What do you do 

18 for this? 

19 MR. FARVER: It depends on the site. 

20 I know but then you have to go back to the 

21 procedures and the documentation and each one 

22 -- sometimes it says use the record or 

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1 sometimes it says use the frequency for all 

2 cases. And sometimes you just use the table's 

3 frequency for maximum or something and for 

4 best estimates you use the records, but you 

5 have to go back and look at the documentation 

6 and find out exactly what the tables say. 

7 DR. MAURO: This could flip on that. 

8 MR. FARVER: But they used the 

9 actual records. The DR said they did it for 

10 every year but they only did it for 12 out of 

11 17 years when they had actual records. 

12 DR. ULSH: So is this an SC&A, SC&A 

13 considers NIOSH response? 

14 MR. FARVER: This is back to us. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: On 194.3 we wrote a 

16 book. The finding was reviewer questioned 

17 whether dates of intake for fitted uranium 

18 dose are claimant-favorable. Our response was 

19 the comment that the assessment is not 

20 consistent with OTIB-60 is not applicable 

21 since this assessment was done in 2005 and 

22 OTIB-60 was issued in 2007, so apparently 

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1 that's part of the finding. 

2 The shifting of the intake date to 

3 account for the October 29 sample would not 

4 have resulted in a significant change to the 

5 assessment. So there's a lot of information 

6 associated with finding we don't have here. 

7 The two high samples in late October were 

8 boxed in by two samples at the employee's 

9 baseline on November 27 and November 1. 

10 Therefore the resulting three-day chronic 

11 intake was estimated with an acute intake at 

12 the mid-point of a chronic intake. The use of 

13 the day before as the intake date was done 

14 because it resulted in the only scenario where 

15 a good fit to the bioassay data could be 

16 obtained. This is because the majority of 

17 these samples were followed up by results that 

18 were much lower than the high positive results 

19 used to determine the intake date. 

20 NIOSH agrees that this is not 

21 considered a standard practice however in this 

22 case it was a choice of calling the high 

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1 samples false positive or assuming that the 

2 intake occurred close to the high result. 

3 NIOSH feels it is more claimant-favorable to 

4 assume intake occurred than to assume nothing 

5 occurred. 

6 Apparently a one high sample 

7 followed fairly closely by a low samples and 

8 to fit that you have to have an intake that 

9 occurred close to --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I understand this 

11 is to split the period. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: If you don't have 

13 any indication and there are not 

14 countervailing bioassay samples following it. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think this --

16 yes, you got to --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: We have just go to 

18 back to it. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I mean the 

20 other thing I would ask on the record, 

21 employment record from DOE, is if this was an 

22 acute exposure, was there any kind of incident 

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1 report or anything in the person's file to 

2 indicate -

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, maybe 

4 something will -

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That would 

6 be something when you do the follow up, but 

7 obviously if yes. 

8 MR. FARVER: And what triggered was 

9 obviously they chose an intake date the day 

10 before the high bioassay sample. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

12 MR. FARVER: Which -- it's a 

13 trigger. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: 194.4. Finding is 

15 NIOSH failed to calculate internal doses 

16 associated with potential exposure to thorium. 

17 And the response is the 1955 bioassay listed 

18 in the inventory exposure history report is 

19 listed as beta urinalysis for plant 3. There 

20 is no indication at this time that thorium was 

21 processed in plant 3. Therefore no thorium was 

22 assigned. Currently the guidance on assigning 

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1 thorium exposures is being evaluated as part 

2 of the Site Profile SEC process. If a change 

3 in the approach to applying thorium is 

4 implemented then this claim would be reworked 

5 under PER. However the current Site Profile at 

6 the time this claim was assessed, limits 

7 thorium exposures to plant 9 in 1955. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This could 

9 certainly be discussed tomorrow. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Sounds like it. I 

11 don't know for sure but sounds like it could 

12 be. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. At either 

14 rate, I think SC&A needs to follow up on this 

15 and if we end up giving it to the Work Group, 

16 that's fine, but for now we'll just say SC&A 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: And yes, Observation 

18 number one for 194 is NIOSH may have 

19 erroneously concluded that PFG units were not 

20 in use at FMPC during `51 through `58. Site 

21 research for the site indicates that I think 

22 if there was, the PFG wasn't used there. 

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1 Observation number 2 is that SC&A's 

2 review of the Site Profile has identified 

3 deficiencies with NIOSH's assessment of 

4 internal doses associated with the raffinate 

5 streams in plant 2 and 3, recycled uranium and 

6 failure to consider ingestion doses, and TBD 

7 findings and concerns are being considered in 

8 conjunction with the TBD and that's all. 

9 DR. ULSH: For Observation number 1, 

10 and I guess this one, what's the status? 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I was going 

12 to ask, what is the status on Observation 1? 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it's an 

14 observation. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

16 DR. MAURO: And I've got to say, I 

17 wouldn't have made it an observation. In other 

18 words we are saying that you might be missing 

19 some PFGs, especially as a DOE facility, 

20 unless you have -- if you have affirmative 

21 evidence --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it's 

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1 pretty clear there. 

2 DR. MAURO: They did not have PFG. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it's 

4 pretty clear there. 

5 DR. MAURO: Well, just hand it to us 

6 and we'll confirm. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think we can 

9 do anything with it today. It goes to SC&A to 

10 look at. 

11 DR. ULSH: Okay. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But do we need --

13 does NIOSH -- I mean does SC&A have the 

14 evidence that supports that claim? Is it in 

15 that section -

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Doesn't it come up 

17 in the Site Profile debate at all? 

18 DR. MAURO: If we don't have it, 

19 we'll call you. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Okay. 

21 MEMBER CLAWSON: So what are we 

22 going to do on that? 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I think 

2 SC&A will follow up on it. And if they don't 

3 have enough information --

4 DR. MAURO: We'll reach out to you 

5 so you know. 

6 MR. FARVER: So, we are saying that 

7 they assumed it was PFG and it should not 

8 have? 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: No, we said --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We said it 

11 wasn't, right. 

12 DR. MAURO: Before a certain date we 

13 thought there should be PFG but what was the 

14 date that you cut off at? 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: `51 through `58. `51 

16 is when the place opened. So `58 must be the 

17 cutoff in the OTIB -

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: That we used if you 

20 don't know, you assume for that. In this case 

21 the judgment was we know. They didn't have -

22 DR. MAURO: You didn't provide any 

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1 reference on the basis for that conclusion. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Not here. I don't 

3 know what that conclusion was based on. Well, 

4 we refer to the Site Profile. And I don't know 

5 what references were listed in the Site 

6 Profile. 

7 DR. ULSH: Interviews of medical 

8 employees. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It does reference 

10 medical -- hopefully they're referenced in the 

11 -- yes. 

12 MEMBER MUNN: You have interviews, 

13 either accept them or you don't accept them. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Again, follow up 

15 on that and see if you need more information. 

16 You can talk to them. Okay. 194, Observation 

17 2. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, we just referred 

19 those to the TBD discussion. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: In fact I think they 

22 were put in here as observations because they 

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363 

1 were already issues in the Site Profile. 

2 MR. FARVER: A little bit more about 

3 that previous observation, about PFG. That 

4 observation is based on findings from our 

5 review of the Fernald TBD. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I think all these 

7 are. 

8 MR. FARVER: So that's not a -- so 

9 that observation is not unique to this case. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

11 MR. FARVER: It is two findings, 

12 finding 30, finding 33, out of our report for 

13 the Fernald TBD. 

14 MEMBER MUNN: Unless that's true of 

15 Observation 2 and Observation 3. 

16 MR. FARVER: Probably. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I think those things 

18 are here as observations --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, 

20 placeholders. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: They had previously 

22 been identified in Site Profile review. 

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364 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine so 

2 we'll just put them as closed out for our 

3 process. 

4 DR. ULSH: Observations 1, 2, and --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Even number 1 

6 should be closed out? I sort of liked my 

7 statement on one but you want to leave that to 

8 the Work Group? 

9 MR. FARVER: Let me see on 

10 Observation 1. Observation 1 is about findings 

11 30 and 33 of the SC&A report on the Site 

12 Profile so it's already been previously 

13 identified. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I'll just 

15 say SC&A will follow up on the events of when 

16 Fernald was using PFG and include in Site 

17 Profile discussion. So it refers it to the --

18 I just don't want to lose the actual work has 

19 got to be done. 

20 MR. FARVER: The final statement of 

21 that observation is the resolution of these 

22 findings could have an impact on this case, 

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365 

1 which is true. So, but that gets resolved 

2 under Site Profile Work Group? 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this will be 

4 resolved tomorrow is what you are saying. 

5 Okay. 

6 DR. ULSH: It will be discussed 

7 tomorrow. 

8 MR. FARVER: We roll tomorrow. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Unfortunately I'm 

10 on that Work Group too. Okay. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: Lucky guy. 

12 DR. ULSH: So that's the same for 

13 observation --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Same for two and 

15 three, right. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: These are all the 

17 same. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes, that's 

19 fine. Okay. Yes. You have got some more. You 

20 want to do -- we can get through 195 and then 

21 we may want to call it a day. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: All right. Finding 

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366 

1 195.1 is NIOSH did not apply the correct 

2 exposure geometry and organ dose conversion 

3 factor. Our response is the rotational 

4 geometry organ dose conversion factors are 

5 higher than the interior posterior geometry 

6 per red bone marrow. And additional 

7 corrections are required when the dosimeter 

8 was worn on the chest. It is not clear if the 

9 interior posterior rotational or isotropic 

10 geometry is the most applicable based on 

11 employee's duties and work locations. 

12 However since the reconstructed 

13 dose results in a compensable decision it was 

14 appropriate to apply the dose conversion 

15 factor that gives a lower dose. For this 

16 claim, that is the dose conversion factor for 

17 anterior to posterior exposures. Use of the AP 

18 dose conversion factor may have been 

19 inadvertent for this claim and its use as an 

20 underestimating assumption should have been 

21 noted in the report for clarity. 

22 It sounds like what this is, the 

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1 finding apparently was that whereas we 

2 normally use AP geometry because that usually 

3 gives the highest, but it doesn't for red bone 

4 marrow. And so I think the finding probably 

5 said well, you should use rotational because 

6 it's one of the few exceptions from AP -

7 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that's 

9 probably what the finding said. 

10 DR. MAURO: And since it was 

11 compensated --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And we said, well, 

13 yes, we agree, but we used AP on that and it 

14 was compensated so you're kind of better off 

15 being on the low side rather than the high 

16 side on a mistake on a compensable claim and 

17 even though we said it may have been a 

18 mistake, it may have been inadvertent, so we 

19 didn't know exactly why AP ended up in there, 

20 but so I think that's it, but I think you guys 

21 ought to take a look at it, see if that's --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes, yes. It 

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368 

1 seems a bit like one of these after the fact 

2 justifications for an error. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: No, we've never said 

4 we were right. We said it was an error. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Serendipity. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. You lucked 

8 out, yes. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. All right. 

10 Don't expect to be lucky. Rely on it. 

11 Okay, finding 195.2, discrepancy 

12 between assumptions described in the report 

13 and those used in the workbook calculation. 

14 Our response is the dose reconstruction report 

15 is erroneous as noted in the finding. The 95th 

16 percentile neutron to proton ratio is often 

17 used as an overestimating approach in the more 

18 common situation where they reconstruct the 

19 dose results in a non-compensable decision. 

20 The standard language from that more common 

21 approach was not changed to match the use of 

22 the more reasonable geometric mean value of 

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1 the ratio. 

2 So this could be listed as a QA 

3 finding because the report said do one thing 

4 but we really did another thing. But we 

5 believe the dose reconstruction report, there 

6 is no problem with the mathematics in the 

7 report, but the words in the report don't 

8 match what we did. You can take it back to 

9 look at. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Interrupt 

11 any time Doug if you have any follow up 

12 questions. 

13 MR. FARVER: No, that was the gist 

14 of it. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes. 

16 MR. FARVER: It was just a wording 

17 and it was different than what the 

18 calculations were. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Finding 195.3 is --

20 using sodium-24 whole body count results may 

21 underestimate the dose. We wax eloquent again. 

22 This finding implies that the internal dose 

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370 

1 from fission products was based solely on 

2 measurements of sodium-24 or that the TBD such 

3 and such number recommends such a method. Upon 

4 review of the internal dose reconstruction, 

5 this was found not to be true of this claim or 

6 the guidance in the TBD. The potential missed 

7 fission product dose for this claim was 

8 determined using the radionuclide that gives 

9 the highest dose to the appropriate organ 

10 based on the whole body count MDA and exposure 

11 period (except for years coworker intakes were 

12 used.) 

13 For this claim, that radionuclide 

14 was determined to be cerium-144. Deposits of 

15 zinc-65 and sodium-24 whole body count results 

16 were evident in these records and these were 

17 each considered separately. The findings also 

18 state that the internal dose could also be 

19 underestimated by using sodium-24 results 

20 because zinc-65 is more easily detected post21 intake due to its longer half-life. 

22 In fact, the opposite would occur. 

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1 A higher intake would be calculated because 

2 the intake calculation takes into account the 

3 effective half-life of sodium-24 in the body. 

4 In other words, if the sodium-24 is 

5 disappearing at a more rapid rate, and you 

6 take your sodium, your in-vivo count, you 

7 would have a larger back-calculated correction 

8 for sodium-24 than for zinc-65. This seems to 

9 be a very complicated response and it needs to 

10 go back to SC&A. 

11 DR. MAURO: I think I understand 

12 what you're saying. We'll look at it. 

13 MR. FARVER: I can't even find the 

14 finding in the report. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well somebody put it 

16 in the matrix. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It looks like the 

18 day of the fission product or the chooser 

19 right? 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: It looks like it was 

21 -- the internal dose from fission -- this 

22 sounds like a Hanford case because we have --

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Hanford, yes. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Because it was in 

3 the drinking water. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what it 

6 sounds like. The comment seemed to imply that 

7 we calculated internal dose just from the 

8 sodium where in fact we did it in a different 

9 way, and used the high dose, the highest 

10 nuclide. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Which would have 

12 been the chooser I think. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know what we 

14 called it. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Thank you 

16 Scott. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Thanks Scott. 

18 MR. SIEBERT: No problem. It sounds 

19 like we were just a little too ambitious 

20 picking one more Mark. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I know, we 

22 were -

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373 

1 (Laughter.) 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I know. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: The drain in energy 

4 level is audible, not just visual, it's 

5 audible. Finding 195.4, and the finding is an 

6 internal dose from cesium-137 was not 

7 included. One more book. Our response. The 

8 dose reconstructor compared the cesium-137 

9 bioassay results to the mean body burden 

10 resulting from fallout and determined that 

11 they were similar although two were slightly 

12 greater. I guess that's two of the cesium-137 

13 bioassay results, I guess, were slightly 

14 higher. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think you can 

16 almost stop there and say SC&A needs to 

17 review. 

18 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's pretty 

20 obvious that you are going to have to look at 

21 that. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: There are some 

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1 observations. You want to worry about that or 

2 just say since they are observations, no 

3 further action required? 

4 Oh my God, they're long. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Hold on, let's 

6 see. 

7 MR. FARVER: I mean, we can talk 

8 about that cesium if you want to, I ,mean it 

9 goes straight from a table of mean body 

10 burdens from cesium fallout in the United 

11 States and the whole body results for one 

12 number, and the table results for a lower 

13 number, so I would assume that you would 

14 calculate a dose from that and I assume it's a 

15 body burden not from fall-out. 

16 MR. SIEBERT: Well, the operable 

17 part of this response actually is at the end 

18 and I apologize for that. It's compensable 

19 claim and we stated that we didn't need to 

20 assess any cesium-137. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes I think the 

22 operable part is that we simply terminated the 

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375 

1 dose reconstruction before doing the cesium 

2 part. 

3 MR. FARVER: And that's part of a 

4 problem we have. We sometimes can't tell if 

5 it's been terminated or just omitted. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well yes, that's 

7 true. I guess I would -- I don't know. It 

8 obviously doesn't affect this claim, does it, 

9 is there still a question of how it's handled 

10 overall? Or --

11 MR. FARVER: I don't know that you 

12 could resolve that, I mean if you are trying 

13 to -- it was just terminated. You know a lot 

14 of times what I've seen in the past is if say 

15 an internal dose is not necessary, they have 

16 ended the internal dose section, you'll say, 

17 per such and such a CFR, this is not needed, 

18 and probably a statement like that should have 

19 been included under a cesium section, if 

20 that's the case. That way everyone knows that 

21 it could have happened but we don't need to 

22 address it. We are going to move on. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well you guys have 

2 gotten into the comment --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I'm going to 

4 say SC&A will review further. Likely or no 

5 effect on the case. Or likely no effect on 

6 this case. I just want to leave it a little 

7 open to let them look at it closely. 

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Observation one. The 

9 recorded whole body gamma used by NIOSH in the 

10 AI workbook, differ from those totaled by SC&A 

11 from the DOE records. Since the handwritten 

12 records for AI from 1957 through `67 are not 

13 always dated or in order, the discrepancy that 

14 exists between SC&A and NIOSH input values 

15 could be due to the misreading of the original 

16 recorded data by either party. The background 

17 for this observation identifies 1957 as the 

18 year when differences were noted between the 

19 doses used by NIOSH and those observed by 

20 SC&A. No other specific discrepancies were 

21 identified. The gamma dose for 1957 was 

22 determined by SC&A, was given as 57 millirem 

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377 

1 and SC&A states that NIOSH uses 29 millirem 

2 for that year. The SC&A representation of the 

3 dose used by NIOSH is incorrect. The recorded 

4 gamma dose used by NIOSH was 62 millirem but 

5 this was reduced to 29 millirem due to 

6 considering values less than half the 

7 dosimeter limit of detection as zero results 

8 as required by OCAS-IG-1. The 62 millirem 

9 total gamma dose for 1957 is taken from page 

10 31 and 32 of the DOE file of the DOE response 

11 such and such. The doses used by NIOSH appear 

12 to be correct. The 57 millirem value stated by 

13 SC&A we cannot replicate. So that's got to go 

14 to SC&A. 

15 DR. MAURO: Just for my own 

16 edification, you are saying that if the 

17 recorded film badge reading is less than one 

18 half the MDA, at that time you were recording 

19 a zero? 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: At this time, yes --

21 DR. MAURO: At that time that was 

22 what you were doing. 

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what we are 

2 doing now. 

3 DR. MAURO: You're doing that now? 

4 So if you get a reading as opposed to 

5 assigning one half the MDA, you assign zero. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but it's 

7 assigned as one half the MDA in the missed 

8 dose section. 

9 DR. MAURO: All right so I'm asking, 

10 are you --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

12 DR. MAURO: Oh. Okay. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It's assigned a zero 

14 in the recorded dose section and then that one 

15 is put in the missed dose section where they 

16 are going to have the MDA. 

17 DR. MAURO: Oh okay. I'm okay now. I 

18 didn't quite follow it. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, they don't 

20 double count, right. 

21 DR. MAURO: Okay I just wanted to --

22 I didn't understand. Right. 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But my question 

2 on this one is why is it an observation and 

3 not a finding? It seems like a discrepancy in 

4 value, that kind of thing usually comes up as 

5 a finding. No? 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. It's 

7 not very big --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes I know, it's 

9 just, yes, but --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. I 

11 don't know. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anyway, I was 

13 just trying to get a --

14 MR. FARVER: I don't know. Sometimes 

15 when we talk to these Board Members on their 

16 conference calls we change things from 

17 findings to observations -

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, blame it on 

19 the Board. Oh, I see. I didn't do this case 

20 did I? All right we'll leave it at that. 

21 Neutron/photon, go ahead. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: The observation 

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1 number two is the neutron/photon dose ratios 

2 described in the Site Profile main number, 

3 it's the number of the Site Profile, may be 

4 underestimated. Response is the neutron to 

5 photon ratio as listed in the included 

6 technical basis document was used in the dose 

7 reconstruction. The validity of those ratios 

8 is currently undergoing evaluation. They were 

9 assumed to be correct at the time the dose was 

10 reconstructed for this claim. So that is I 

11 think in a Site Profile review, I think the --

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Which --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Didn't we assign 

14 this to the Hanford case? 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is Hanford. 

16 MR. FARVER: Oh, it's Hanford and 

17 Atomics International and Grand Junction. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So the N/P ratios 

19 would be for Hanford though? 

20 MR. FARVER: Probably. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe so. 

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So there is a 

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1 Hanford group active. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So this 

4 issue will go to the Site Profile group, I 

5 believe, right? 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it's already 

7 there. We'll let them -- we'll let SC&A come 

8 back with a response before we take any 

9 action on it, right? Are we going to just send 

10 it over there or what are we going to do? 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well let's ay 

12 it's under review and is it under review on 

13 the Hanford --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: It's under review on 

15 the Hanford Site Profile, and the Work Group. 

16 Observation number three. The procedures and 

17 documents used to derive those doses were not 

18 referenced in the text or in the reference 

19 section of the DR report. Our response, 

20 references for the information used to 

21 determine the onsite ambient dose should have 

22 been included in the report. So we agree the 

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382 

1 references should have been there. I guess you 

2 could make it a QA finding. It felt like that 

3 was a QA failure. 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm assuming SC&A 

5 agrees with this, right? 

6 MR. FARVER: Yes. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No further 

8 action. All right. The last one? How many 

9 observations? Okay. Last one. Last one for the 

10 day. Let's make it a good one. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: It's long. 

12 Observation four. The DR states that the IMBA 

13 code was used to calculate chronic ingestion 

14 intakes for sodium-24 and zinc-65. In fact the 

15 IMBA code was used to calculate chronic 

16 inhalation intakes of 843 picocuries per day 

17 and 65 picocuries per day for sodium and zinc 

18 respectively. The actual chronic ingestion 

19 intakes are 558 picocuries per day and 37.4 

20 picocuries per day for sodium and zinc 

21 respectively. Also the sodium-24 whole body 

22 count result entered for the hear 1970 is 

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383 

1 actually the 1968 result. The observations 

2 currently point out that the report does not 

3 match the analysis in regards to the intake 

4 pathway for sodium-24 and zinc-65. However the 

5 internal dose calculated from zinc -- from the 

6 sodium-24 and zinc-65 results was not included 

7 in the dose estimate because they were both 

8 less than one millirem, in spite of the 

9 overestimate produced by assuming inhalation 

10 intakes. The observation is also correct in 

11 noting that the bioassay result for 724 does 

12 not correspond to the correct date, so --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think SC&A 

14 might want to look further into that. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And again, I 

17 don't know how that is an observation but I 

18 guess that's the Board that has done that. No, 

19 okay. All right. I mean it seems like -- and 

20 if you're in agreement that it is, you know, I 

21 think you have to review to see first is the 

22 question about the one millirem and -- I think 

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384 

1 there's several things that SC&A should look 

2 back at on this one. 

3 Okay. And I think that's it. I 

4 think around the table we've kind of had it so 

5 I don't know about you all that have stuck 

6 with this on the phone but yes that answers my 

7 question, okay. Anything else for the record 

8 today? 

9 Anyone? Do we want to try to pick a 

10 date? 

11 MR. KATZ: Why not? It makes it 

12 easier. We've done this for the last few Work 

13 Groups. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let's go ahead 

15 and pick a date, yes. Maybe you can steer us 

16 in the right direction Ted. What dates are out 

17 there? 

18 MR. KATZ: Wait a sec, let me switch 

19 my calendar. Well given that work hasn't been 

20 done to finish seven and there's quite a bit 

21 to do left on eight and we want progress on 

22 nine too, I mean I would suggest we push it 

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385 

1 out -

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: To near the 

3 February meeting? Is there --

4 MR. KATZ: To near or after the 

5 February meeting. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I would suggest 

7 after. 

8 MR. KATZ: I mean this doesn't have 

9 to come before --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: It doesn't matter to 

11 me. 

12 MR. KATZ: We don't have an item to 

13 put before the Board. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

15 MR. KATZ: So we don't really have 

16 to be beholden to that. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We can go into 

18 March. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm out for almost 

20 all of February. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh okay. 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: You can do it 

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386 

1 without me, I'm okay with that. 

2 MR. KATZ: We have a meeting booked 

3 in March. Let me see what date that is because 

4 it might make sense to sidle up to that. Yes, 

5 TBD-6001 which you are on, Mark, is on March 

6 15. So either the 16th or the 14th would be 

7 good. 

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I like the 14th
 

9 but I know others are not going to like that 

10 as much, right? 

11 MR. KATZ: Well. 

12 MEMBER RICHARDSON: That's good for 

13 me. 

14 MR. KATZ: That was David that said 

15 it was good for him. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let's do the 14th
 

17 at least tentatively. 14th for DR Subcommittee. 

18 MEMBER CLAWSON: I'm -- let's shoot 

19 for it. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mike are you 

21 still on? 

22 MR. KATZ: Mike? 

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387 

1 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, 14th's good. 

2 MR. KATZ: Okay. Brad doesn't have 

3 an immediate problem. 

4 MEMBER CLAWSON: No, let's just 

5 shoot for that and I'll see where my schedule 

6 falls. 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay we'll try 

8 it. We can also about beginning of March if we 

9 don't have a lot of activity, we can also, how 

10 long before should we cancel this? 

11 MR. KATZ: We can't cancel that 

12 late. 

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, when do 

14 you post them in the Federal Register? 30 days 

15 beforehand? 

16 MR. KATZ: 30 days in advance. So 

17 that's when we would have to notify the public 

18 --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I might try to 

20 touch base with SC&A and NIOSH. 

21 MR. KATZ: You should actually. 

22 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

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388 

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Because I don't 

2 want to -- we don't want to schedule just for 

3 the purpose of coming to Cincinnati. Okay. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: The baseball season 

5 hasn't even started yet. 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anything else? 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: We are expected here 

8 unless we hear otherwise? 

9 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. If 

11 there's nothing else, we are going to close. 

12 Meeting adjourned. Thanks everyone for hanging 

13 in there. 

14 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

15 matter went off the record at 4:42 p.m.) 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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2 


3 


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6 


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