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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION

WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

IDAHO NATIONAL LABORATORY WORK GROUP

+ + + + +

TUESDAY,

MARCH 1, 2016

+ + + + +

The Work Group convened in the Toronto 

Room of the Cincinnati Airport Marriott, 2395 

Progress Drive, Hebron, Kentucky, at 9:00 a.m., 

Josie Beach, Acting Chair, presiding.

PRESENT:

JOSIE BEACH, Acting Chair

JAMES M. MELIUS, Member

DAVID B. RICHARDSON, Member*

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Member

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Member*

ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor*

BOB BARTON, SC&A

RON BUCHANAN, SC&A*

PETE DARNELL, DCAS

DOUGLAS FARVER, SC&A*
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MITCH FINDLEY, ORAU Team

JOE FITZGERALD, SC&A*

ALBERT FROWISS, SR.*

LARA HUGHES, DCAS*

JOHN MAURO, SC&A*

JIM NETON, DCAS

STEVE OSTROW, SC&A*

JOHN STIVER, SC&A

TIM TAULBEE, DCAS

GERALD WOLZ*

BRIAN ZINK*

*Participating via telephone
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T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Welcome and roll call/introductions

Ted Katz................................. 4 

Work Group Discussion

Discuss and address any further questions

regarding the 18 cases. Completeness of the

Temporary Badge Reports and review memo on the

ERC issue. Discussions or concerns the Work

Group has with regards to sufficiency of the data

Tim Taulbee.............................. 6 

Discussion on CADRE

Tim Taulbee............................. 96

Discuss NIOSH's response to SC&A's evaluation

of internal monitoring for fissions and

Activation 1949-1970 (Including extension of

the co-worker model).

NIOSH and SC&A......................... 105

Review draft SEC issues matrix (note that

there are no findings at this preliminary

stage, just areas of concern, references,

and annotations) ............................ 111

Update on SC&A's prioritized list of 52 Reactors

that OTIB-0054 may not cover.

SC&A................................... 129

Discuss timeline of when the INL bioassay

dataset will be available

Tim Taulbee............................ 134

Update on the ANL West SEC Evaluation ....... 172

Path forward for SEC petition evaluation .... 174

Petitioner comments ......................... 174

Work Group recommendation(s)/Plans for

March Board Meeting ......................... 174
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

(9:02 a.m.)

MR. KATZ: So good morning everybody in 

the room and on the line. This is the Advisory 

Board on Radiation Worker Health, the INL Work 

Group, and we're still waiting a Member or two, but 

let's, we can get some things done administratively 

at least.

So for everyone on the line the 

materials that are being discussed today you can 

find on the NIOSH website, those that could be 

cleared and posted, and they are on the NIOSH 

website under the Board section, Schedule of 

Meetings, today's date.

There should be an agenda there and 

other materials that we will be discussing so you 

can follow along today.

And staff that are on the line, Live 

Meeting hopefully is working for you better than 

me. It's not really working for me, but I think 

most people have been able to get on.

So we'll do -- let's do roll call, and 
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I'll begin with Board Members but I'll come back 

to Board Members because not everybody is here yet.

We're talking about a specific site, so 

please for staff and members speak to conflict of 

interest as well. 

(Roll call)

MR. KATZ: Okay. Let me just note for 

people who aren't usuals on these calls, please 

mute your phones. Everybody mute your phone 

except for whoever is speaking to us at the time 

and if you don't have a mute button press *66 to 

mute your phone and then you press *66 again to take 

your phone of mute, but please mute your phone.

And, also, please don't put the call on 

hold at any point, but hang up and dial back in if 

you need to go for a piece.

Josie?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, thank you. 

So we do have a full agenda. It is posted on Live 

Meeting if you have it or get on the website as Ted 

mentioned.

We're going to start with the first 
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bullet which deals with the Class Definition, so 

the last two papers that were issued just before 

our January meeting, we'll look, we'll go through 

those in more detail.

NIOSH, I'm hoping for some updates. We

do have an emergency response issue that we are 

going to cover in that first bullet and then, of 

course, questions, answers, surrounding the Class 

Definition.

So we're hoping to hear from NIOSH, 

SC&A, and then we'll have Work Group discussion on 

it.

Okay, so, Tim, if you are ready.

DR. TAULBEE: Okay, sure. Well the, 

you know, at the end of our last call you all had 

wanted some more additional time to look at the 18 

cases that we had done follow-up on.

And at that time I indicated there was 

some concern about temporary badges and whether 

they were complete or not and I indicated that we 

could try and do some comparison even though we knew 

we didn't have monthly reports reporting the 
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temporary badges like we did all of the area 

dosimetry that we presented at the Board Meeting 

both in November as well as in July.

But I did commit that there was a few 

years that we could look at and then tally up the 

temporary badges that we had and compare the two 

to show you, you know, whether we felt that within 

these years it would give you some feel that we have 

the temporary badges.

And so hopefully this shows up on Live 

Meeting, but this is our comparison of the 

temporary badge reports and the monthly reports for 

'63, '64, and '65.

As you will notice here we have 

temporary badge reports for '64, January '64 

through May of '64, but we don't have monthly 

reports to compare them to, which is why you just 

see the green bars.

The green is what we actually have. We 

went through, let's see, about 800 pages of 

temporary badge reports and tallied up the number 

of names on each page in order to get these, this 
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breakdown here on a monthly basis, and then 

compared them to the monthly reports, how many 

badges did they say that they -- how many temporary 

badges did they have that month and how many badges 

did we actually count, how many names.

And you can see the comparison looks 

pretty good through the whole time period. 

Interestingly, there are a few months where we have 

a lot more temporary badges than we have, than were 

reported on the monthly badges.

If you were to look at November of 1963 

as well as, I believe it was May of 1965, there is 

several hundred more temporary badge reports with 

names on them than what was reported in the monthly 

reports.

So we do feel pretty confident that, at 

least for this sample, that we have the complete 

set of temporary badge reports, you know, for that 

particular time period.

So I think that gives you guys the 

follow-up that I committed to back in January 

during our Work Group call. Are there any 
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questions?

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes. This isn't in a 

form of report?

DR. TAULBEE: No.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: No.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay. I just don't --

DR. TAULBEE: It's really --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: -- over the weekend 

when it's not --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: No, no, it's just one. 

No, it's just one graph. It's just to show you.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay. And that's just 

a temp number count not a physical match?

DR. TAULBEE: That is correct.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: Well, the monthly 

reports just give a count.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: And so there is no way to 

go through and do it otherwise.
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MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Just like with the area 

badges they would indicate by area, you know, the 

number of badges for there.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So does this get 

us just to '66 or through '66?

DR. TAULBEE: No, just to '66.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Just to, so --

DR. TAULBEE: December of '65. They 

changed their report format in January of '66.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: They continued to report 

the area ones but stopped reporting the temporary 

ones in their monthly reports.

We have temporary badge reports, 

obviously, beyond '66, but I don't have anything 

to compare them to.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: So the number that I get 

-- and you can see there is some variation here. 

In October of '64 there was 300 temporary badges, 

whereas back in August of '63 there were 700.
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So there can be some significant 

differences and the big difference that you see 

there in that September of '63 time period was 

apparently some remodeling job because there was 

a lot of construction trades, a lot of HS Wright, 

a lot of Fluor, a lot of Arrington Construction that 

I noticed in going through those reports.

So when there is a big construction job 

you do see an increase.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So the highest 

month was in, like you said, in October '63, you've 

got close to, what, 700?

DR. TAULBEE: Right. On average --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So is that in 

total? Is that the -- or is that a sample of it 

or is that in total all the temporary badges you 

have in total?

DR. TAULBEE: That is in total, all of 

them.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, that is in total for 

that month. It averages around 450, is where the 
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average over the whole time period.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So you can see one 

person more than once within that month?

DR. TAULBEE: Oh, absolutely.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So it's --

DR. TAULBEE: Absolutely.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: And, in fact, the longest 

we saw any temporary badge worn was 12 days. I went 

through, as I was going through these, and looked 

for time periods where the same badge was worn 

multiple days.

Most of these they are issued a day and 

then the next day they get another one, then the 

following day they get another one. If they are 

going to be there three consecutive days and they 

know that it will be for three consecutive days, 

but the longest I saw was 12 days that somebody 

would be issued one of these badges.

Most of them are, like I said, are 

single days, and I think that comes from pulling 

people out of the local halls to come and do work 
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and they don't know if the next day they're going 

to be, you know, offered to come back out to the 

site or not, and so you see some variation, and then 

some people you see, you know, a longer, you know, 

several days in a row.

MR. BARTON: Tim, when you were looking 

at this did you come across situations where a 

temporary badge spanned two months?

DR. TAULBEE: No.

MR. BARTON: No, not at all, okay.

DR. TAULBEE: No. I did not see 

anything longer than 12 days.

MR. BARTON: Okay. I actually meant 

like six days in one month and six days in another.

DR. TAULBEE: Oh, six days in one 

month, six days --

MR. BARTON: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: The temporary badge 

spanned --

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: -- not two full months but 
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kind of crossed in between?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, you are correct, 

which actually is causing some of this variation 

here between what the monthly report is. I don't 

know what their cutoff was when they counted.

MR. BARTON: Right, yes.

DR. TAULBEE: But around the month 

breaks, yes, there is many of them that will be 

issued April 30th through, you know, May 2nd, and 

so we're seeing, bridging that span.

MR. BARTON: Right. So would that 

badge have counted for both months in these totals 

or --

DR. TAULBEE: I don't know how the site 

counted that from that standpoint.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: I do know that we have 

more temporary badges than what was reported on 

monthly reports by about 3 percent.

So over the whole span of this three 

years we have, for the months that we can compare, 

we do see more names on these reports than what the 
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site was reporting in their monthly reports.

So they were being conservative if they 

were being graded on how many badges they were 

doing, they were under-reporting how many badges 

they were processing.

MR. BARTON: It seems like it would 

probably be whenever they turned it in, that's 

probably the month it counted for, but we don't 

really know.

DR. TAULBEE: That's my guess, but it 

also could be the read date. What I used here was 

the read date on the report date up at the, on the 

upper right-hand corner.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: And around April or --

not April, but, you know, like August 1st, for 

example, all of them that they read were all July, 

and so, you know, that --

MR. BARTON: So these totals accounted 

for August for the temporary badge report total?

DR. TAULBEE: Actually for two months 

I did move them because all of them were in July. 
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For the time periods when it was mixed I just 

reported it into that month, because I couldn't --

okay, because what you'll see is one month up high, 

one real low.

But whenever they were all in one month 

then I did move them, but when they were not then 

I left them into the --

MR. BARTON: The read date.

DR. TAULBEE: -- the reporting log. I 

just didn't know how else to deal with it.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: All right, so 

those are the temporary badges, where do the 

visitor badges fit in?

DR. TAULBEE: These are.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: These are visitor 

--

DR. TAULBEE: These are visitor and --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Oh, they are both, 

okay.

DR. TAULBEE: They're together, yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. Give us 

that.
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DR. TAULBEE: Yes. This is combined.

MEMBER MELIUS: So what's the status of 

the indexing and scanning of -- scanning and 

indexing in that order, of the --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: Of the --

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: Of the temporary badges?

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: When we talked to them in 

June, or in January out there at the site, they were 

anticipating six to nine months that they would be 

done.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: That they would have it 

all indexed.

MEMBER MELIUS: So you don't have an 

update?

DR. TAULBEE: I don't beyond that.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: We talked to them at the 

end of January.
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MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: I have not talked to them 

this month to see if they were still on schedule.

They seem to be doing pretty well, and 

you saw them, I think Josie and Gen got to see them, 

compiling them together into small groups and 

scanning them and they were beginning the indexing.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, we did see 

it, but that's still going to be a tough one for 

the validation of it until it's done and you can 

actually go from those cards to what the Class is 

going to look like as far as implementation of it 

and how that's going to be done.

So, all right, back on the -- we had the 

two reports, NIOSH's report and SC&A's report, 

right before the last Work Group meeting and I know 

people wanted more time to look at that.

Questions on that or do we need another 

presentation or what is the Work Group members' 

need?

MEMBER MELIUS: I don't need any more 

presentations or information, but I'm still 
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skeptical until we can validate this better than 

we have, the temporary badges situation.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, I --

MEMBER MELIUS: For those of, you know, 

the original years in that one. I just find it --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That first, the 

first four?

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes. I think there is 

too many unanswered questions.

MEMBER ROESSLER: So which years are 

you --

MEMBER MELIUS: The earlier years.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: The '63 to '70?

MEMBER MELIUS: The one where we're --

the one with the unusual Class Definition.

DR. TAULBEE: The -- okay. '63 

through --

MEMBER MELIUS: Requiring badging, 

yes.

DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

MEMBER ROESSLER: So you're talking 

about the -- oh, I don't have the dates right in 
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front of me. I should have --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: '63 to '70.

DR. TAULBEE: '63 to '70.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, '70.

DR. TAULBEE: This is the best I can 

validate from '63 through '66. '66 through '70 

we've got temporary badges. What validation are 

you looking for?

MEMBER MELIUS: I want the sample drawn 

and want SC&A to go through it and develop a plan 

that will answer some of the questions we raised 

at the last meeting.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So I went through 

and made a list of all the things that we've made, 

the list of all the issues. I did that late last 

night.

So there is still several unanswered 

questions. I don't know if I should -- because a 

lot of these are issues that all of us brought up, 

of course.

Yes, when I was looking at this and 

thinking that I don't know that we were ready today. 
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I know we have some petitioners on the line and 

would it be pertinent to request, see if anybody 

wants to weigh in on this topic of the Class 

Definition?

MEMBER MELIUS: Why don't you go 

through your list first and then we'll see what 

questions are on that.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Should I? Okay. 

So and these are just taken out of the transcript, 

so if anyone wants to add to it please feel free 

to.

So one of the first ones was 

completeness and adequacy of the visitor cards and 

temporary film badge reports, of course, Jim, you 

just brought that up.

Another one was reliance on subjective 

judgments based on weight of evidence to determine 

worker locations. Third one, discrepancies and 

spellings of workers' names, absence of other 

identifiers.

And then the fourth bullet I have is 

NIOSH suggests as people we are going through some 
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of this they are going to have to be flexible and 

claimant-favorable, that's in looking at these 

names and determining, you know, does that person, 

if the spellings are the same or if it's a junior.

So, let's see, that was on Page 37 of 

the transcript. Next bullet, no way to validate 

temporary badge reports, and then implementation 

is questionable.

That I only wrote implementation is 

questionable, but it went into a lot of different 

scenarios with DOL and how they would administer 

that, and that, let's see, that was taken, Page 68 

through 74 discussion.

The next bullet I found, visitor insert 

cards appear on some of the temporary badge 

reports, it's not consistent.

Next bullet, how much uncertainty is 

acceptable? This is a new concept that, of course, 

was something Gen brought up.

So that's something we're going to have 

to decide and I don't know -- as a Work Group I guess 

we can decide amongst ourselves and then bring it 
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to the whole Board how much uncertainty is 

acceptable.

The next bullet, record systems at DOE 

sites. Facilities are not supportive of limiting 

a Class Definition to monitoring or specific work 

areas, that was on Page 60 of the transcript.

The 250-day context of the visitor 

badges, that was a small discussion on Page 72 with 

Jim, so the 250-day issue.

The next bullet, indexing temp and 

visitor badge could take six months to a year. We 

just talked about that. And then again the 

subjective versus objective basis in a Class 

Definition, which is a new -- new for us.

It's a moving target as far as the first 

Class Definition that came out. We've had a policy 

change, we found temporary badges, we found visitor 

badges, so that's what I meant by a moving target 

there.

Okay, so that's what I pulled out in 

reviewing the transcripts of the 15th, and those 

are all questions and concerns that were brought 
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up by members and staff.

So that leaves us, where do we go from 

here?

MR. BARTON: Tim, I have a question 

just for kind of clarification here because it is 

confusing between the temporary badge reports and 

the visitor cards.

For these years were all the visitor 

cards entered on the temporary badge reports? 

Because I mean I've seen temporary badge reports 

and I can envision it says temporary badge report 

and you have your read date and a listing, that's 

what was used to compile this chart or was it the 

visitor cards for --

DR. TAULBEE: It was those reports.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Those visitor cards and 

the keeping of those appears to have started in 

1968, as where they kept -- They started keeping 

them and that became the record and those temporary 

badge reports is where we see the gaps.

That was how we identified some of those 
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people that were only on those visitor cards and 

they were not on the temporary badge reports that 

we had.

MR. BARTON: So they weren't actually 

visitor cards like we know them?

DR. TAULBEE: I think they were using 

the visitor cards, it's just they transferred them 

all to those temporary badge reports --

MR. BARTON: Okay. And then --

DR. TAULBEE: -- and then in the latter 

years they didn't, they only transferred certain 

contractors.

MR. BARTON: I'm just wondering if we 

tallied the --

DR. TAULBEE: That's how we identified 

the --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. BARTON: If we tallied the visitor 

cards here I wonder how it would compare with the 

monthly reports, if you'd get better agreement?

DR. TAULBEE: I don't know.

MR. BARTON: Yes. Just a question.
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DR. TAULBEE: I mean we had not 

captured those specific cards out there at the 

site.

MR. BARTON: Oh.

DR. TAULBEE: We captured the 

temporary badge reports --

MR. BARTON: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: -- then we'd capture the 

visitor cards from '68 and '68 forward.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So a temporary 

badge report, is it a TLD or a film badge?

DR. TAULBEE: Early years it's film.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Earlier it's 

film.

DR. TAULBEE: And then once you get 

into post-1967 it is TLDs.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Let me clarify that, it 

could be TLDs.

It depended upon where they were going. 

If they were going into a high area, at the time 

they didn't have total confidence in their TLDs 
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yet, they continued to issue film.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Film badges, 

okay.

DR. TAULBEE: So it's a combination.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Because the TLDs 

came later on?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, that's what 

I thought.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. It's a 

combination.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So the other 

thing, we could work on a new Class Definition, 

right, that doesn't require a TLD or a film badge, 

I mean that's the other option here.

I mean we all agree that there should 

be a Class put in place during this time period, 

how we get that -- just throwing it out there.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Why would we work on 

a new Definition when --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That doesn't --

MEMBER ROESSLER: -- I actually I think 
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this one is a fine --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That doesn't 

require TLD or film badge.

MEMBER MELIUS: Well, not all of us 

agree.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, I know --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That doesn't 

require a TLD or film band that includes all people 

that worked at --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER ROESSLER: I think we have to 

sort through whether this is a good Definition or 

not I would think before we come up with a new one.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: My only problem is 

we have met on it three times and we, we're not 

getting to that, so we're just getting more 

questions.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Well, it seems like 

we have two categories of questions, one deals with 

how much certainty is there and the other one, you 

brought up a question about implementation in DOL.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.
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MEMBER ROESSLER: It seems like we need 

to deal with both things. Maybe it would be good 

to deal with -- didn't you mention DOL and 

implementing it?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. We can't 

deal with that until we see what we're going to give 

DOL. When DOL said, because I know Gen brought it 

up at the last meeting, that DOL looked at this 

Class Definition and said it was okay, but that was 

early on before all the changes.

DR. TAULBEE: Well, we sent -- we had 

talked to DOL about the revised Definition in July, 

and we did not get any feedback of any problems with 

that.

We sent a letter to DOL last week just 

reconfirming that, because you are right, we did 

not get that in writing, it was verbal, and so we 

wanted to reaffirm that.

And the indications that we have right 

now is that is workable from their end. They were 

doing some checking yesterday on some things, but 

it appears that they are in agreement that this 
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Class Definition is workable in their sample.

Their concern was does a single badge 

at CPP and 250 days employment qualify somebody for 

the Class or did they have to verify somebody was 

CPP for 250 days, and we indicated it's the first, 

that a single badge and then 250 days of employment.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And it doesn't 

matter where they were employed?

DR. TAULBEE: It doesn't matter.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. As long as 

they were onsite?

DR. TAULBEE: Because you can't 

necessarily -- as long as they were onsite.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Got you.

DR. TAULBEE: Because we can't 

necessarily definitively put where they were. I 

mean we can't definitively say how long they were 

at CPP with that single badge.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Right, sure.

DR. TAULBEE: That's what we can't say. 

And so, because if it was an annual TLD they could 

have been there that entire time period is what it 
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is.

So DOL only indicated that they would 

have a problem if they had to try and verify 250 

days worth of badges inside CPP, that was their only 

concern.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: A single badge and then 

250 days of employment they did not have any 

concerns with.

MR. STIVER: Tim, I got a question for 

you. Back at the January teleconference, I 

believe there had been a discussion about whether 

DOL was aware of this temporary badge report and 

visitor cards and this kind of new subjectivity, 

you know, the idea of having a weight of evidence.

Are they -- did you guys talk about that 

at all in terms of the Definition?

DR. TAULBEE: No. I mean from their 

standpoint, DOE is the ones that thought their 

temporary badges system was complete.

We have shown them that it's not. They 

now have the records and they are updating it to 
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make sure all of these temporary badges are there.

So from DOL's standpoint they're going 

to get the form, or that sheet, once DOE gets it 

coded, that says this person was at CPP, check,

that's one qualification, next, 250 days.

MR. STIVER: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: And so that's all DOL 

really cares about.

MR. STIVER: And they're looking at 

probably about nine months out before that is 

complete?

DR. TAULBEE: Before that latter part.

MR. STIVER: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: I would like to bring up 

though again that, you know, we went through a large 

number of cases, 881 of them, and there were three 

that we could not, you know, find, that fell into 

that grouping of those visitor cards that we had 

to go through and do.

So it is a very small population that 

affects at this time. There is hundreds of cases 

right now that can be processed and moved through 
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where we've got, you know, this, the Class 

Definition fully meets it, they can verify the 

person was at CPP and there is other people that 

they can verify weren't at CPP.

You know the weight of the evidence that 

we talked about is that when you have somebody who 

has, indicates in their CATI that they worked at 

say EBOR and then we look at their locator card and 

it says they worked at EBOR, we look at their 

dosimetry and their dosimetry says they worked at 

EBOR, and then we look at their bioassay and their 

bioassay says they worked at EBOR, and their whole 

body count questionnaire says they worked at EBOR, 

then they worked at EBOR.

You know that's the weight of evidence 

that we are talking about, from that standpoint. 

The one individual in here that we showed all of 

the different temporary badges from the different 

areas, the one case with the multiple misspellings 

of his name, was out at SPERT and it shows each of 

the times that he was out at SPERT.

Those same temporary badge reports are 
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the same ones at CPP that we're looking at. We 

don't see him on CPP, we see him out at SPERT. And 

so that's the type of weight of evidence that I'm 

talking about.

MR. STIVER: I can sure see when all the 

evidence points to being at TAN, for example --

DR. TAULBEE: Exactly.

MR. STIVER: -- yes, you don't want to 

put any of that, but how about when you get to the 

kind of gray zone, like say with a draftsman, or 

you really don't quite know, there is some 

conflicting evidence one way or the other, I'm just 

kind of wondering, you know, how Labor would go 

about doing that.

That is something that just kind of 

sticks with me for a bit.

DR. TAULBEE: Well the one that you are 

talking about was a questionnaire --

MR. STIVER: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: The questionnaire said 

CPP.

MR. STIVER: Right, but I'm thinking 
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more like in a broader sense, the next guy that 

comes along, you know, and this is what he looked 

at, you know, kind of assuming that the sample 

represents the entire, you know, universe of 

claimants. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

DR. TAULBEE: Well, but this wasn't a 

sample.

MR. STIVER: Well it --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: This is all --

MR. STIVER: I mean of the claimant 

population as opposed to all potential claimants.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, okay.

MR. STIVER: I guess I should have 

clarified that.

DR. TAULBEE: Or samples --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: And also from '70 to '74 

basically taking the guy at TAN or EBOR and putting 

him in the SEC.

DR. TAULBEE: Well --

MR. STIVER: So, it was kind of a 
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precedence for the stuff that already --

DR. TAULBEE: Well but the '70 to '74 

time period is he could have been at TAN --

MR. STIVER: So, we really don't know, 

maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

DR. TAULBEE: Right.

MR. STIVER: If you apply the weight of 

evidence --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: But even if his dosimetry 

says he was at TAN he could have gone to CPP because 

they were allowing them to come in the gate without 

picking up a temporary badge.

MR. STIVER: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: He could have worn his 

TAN badge into CPP. That's why we opened it up to 

everybody, because there was a potential for 

somebody coming into CPP and we wouldn't see it on 

one of these visitor badges or a temporary badge 

report or any other way.

And so that was why we opened it up to 

include all workers, all badged worked, at that 
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time period, because you still had to have a badge, 

you know, you had to have a badge to go in there.

MR. BARTON: Well, the case of the 

draftsman, I think that one got pretty good 

discussion last time --

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: -- and in the 

questionnaire he actually put his work area was CF, 

which I think is Central Facilities, and he said, 

you know, the last four years at Central 

Facilities.

Of course, we don't know -- we know 

that's not the case because he went to SPERT and 

MTR based on the dosimetry and it was the case that 

on his actual in vivo record it said CPP and --

DR. TAULBEE: Well, on the front page 

of his, of the form it said CPP.

MR. BARTON: Right, right.

DR. TAULBEE: But on the questionnaire 

part it said Central Facilities.

MR. BARTON: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: And we do know that that 
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individual worked at Central Facilities. When we 

were out there verifying him we talked to some of 

the dosimetry people and they physically, they 

personally knew him and they knew where he was.

MR. BARTON: Right. Well, I imagine 

his office was there, but as a draftsman you could 

be going to these different areas --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: But he wouldn't list CPP, 

we would see him on these temporary badge reports 

in this same time period where we have done this 

verification, and we don't see him.

In this time period we see him at SPERT, 

we see him at NTR, we know these other areas where 

he went to.

MR. BARTON: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: If he went to CPP he 

should be showing up on these same badge reports.

MR. BARTON: Yes. I think that was --

MR. STIVER: This was the guy who had 

a full body count that said CPP?

MR. BARTON: Yes.
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DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. STIVER: Yes.

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: But the questionnaire 

said Central Facilities.

MR. BARTON: And I think that was in 

1966.

DR. TAULBEE: Which was the accurate 

part, by the way, that we verified.

MR. BARTON: Yes, right. I'm trying 

to find the guy.

DR. TAULBEE: '66.

MR. BARTON: It was '66?

DR. TAULBEE: What date? His --

MR. BARTON: The whole body count in 

question.

DR. TAULBEE: I believe it was '68.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. BARTON: -- both sides of the 

period you were actually able to do a verification 

on?
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(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: You can see --

MR. BARTON: Yes, I mean some of these 

monthly reports are reporting more temporary 

badges than we currently have, but as you said if 

you average them over this period the temporary 

badges, what is it, 3 percent over the monthly 

reports for reporting?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Yes, I mean that's, I 

think, potentially one of those sort of human error 

things that you all talked about and agreed that's 

unavoidable in this big of a dataset when you have 

hundreds or thousands of records.

But, yes, so that certainly was one that 

gave us pause. And just to clarify a little bit, 

we did talk about this at the last meeting, at least 

from SC&A's side when we say we looked at all 881 

claimants, I think we both agreed on this, it was 

to varying degrees.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, that was absolutely 

right.
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MR. BARTON: You know, came across a 

claimant that might have worked during the entire

SEC period, as soon as you saw a badge in 1973, a 

case closed kind of thing.

DR. TAULBEE: But --

MR. BARTON: Or it didn't --

DR. TAULBEE: -- that's exactly what 

DOL is going to do.

MR. BARTON: Yes, right.

DR. TAULBEE: Is the exact same process 

--

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. BARTON: I'm just saying we got 

these 18 claims by first eliminating whole batches 

of claimants and then what we had left we really 

kind of dug further.

DR. TAULBEE: Right.

MR. BARTON: But we didn't necessarily 

dig in with the same granularity to each case.

DR. TAULBEE: Right.

MR. BARTON: I just want to make sure 

that that's clear.
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DR. TAULBEE: No, and NIOSH did the 

same thing. You know, as soon as we found a badge 

that put them at CPP they were part of the Class 

and we moved on to the next one.

MR. BARTON: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: And that's exactly how 

DOL is planning to administer those. Yes, they 

have a badge at CPP, now they look for 250 days 

employment.

They probably will do the 250 days 

employment first because if they don't have that 

why --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. BARTON: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: -- badge, you know. But 

the same principle applies.

MEMBER MELIUS: But if they don't have 

250 days they send it to you?

DR. TAULBEE: That's right, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, yes, yes.

DR. TAULBEE: That is correct, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Knew that. So --
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DR. TAULBEE: And I will say that, 

first, in going through some of these we have found 

additional employment for some people by going 

through these temporary badges and we have found 

them outside the time period that they said 

outside, Department of Labor verified, you know, 

employment, we located them.

MEMBER MELIUS: Right, yes. I don't 

think that's unusual at all at many sites with dose 

reconstructions and the nature of the records.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: And the nature of 

somebody's memory after 30 years.

DR. TAULBEE: Exactly, exactly.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, or their 

survivor.

MR. BARTON: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: Exactly, yes, very true.

MEMBER MELIUS: I want to focus just, 

and I probably have asked this before, but Part B 

of the most recent Class Definition, which is the 

'70 to '74.
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DR. TAULBEE: Yes?

MEMBER MELIUS: How confident are we 

and what evidence do we have that everyone who was 

at risk of having worked on CPP would have had an 

external badge? Are there --

DR. TAULBEE: How confident? Very. 

You had to have a badge to go into that area, and 

the badge could have been issued either through the 

main gate at CPP or through the construction gate 

at CX, and we have all of those records that we 

should.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: If they were going 

through and they were not on the regular dosimetry 

for CX or for CPP then they had to be on a temporary 

badge.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So, no way no how 

they could have got into that area without a badge?

DR. TAULBEE: All of the interviews 

that we have conducted with everybody they all, 

everybody has indicated they had to wear a badge, 

you know, and we have interviewed, what, 70 people 
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or so.

The procedures say they had to wear a 

badge. We've interviewed everybody, or 

70-some-odd workers, and they've all indicated 

they had to wear a badge to go into that area.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That's true. The 

only conflicting that we heard was whether they 

picked up a badge or whether they used the one that 

they had. That was --

DR. TAULBEE: Exactly.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, that's true.

DR. TAULBEE: And in the '70 to '74 they 

could wear their own badge in, yes. There is a lot 

of nuance with badging because in many cases before 

they combined the security badge with the dosimeter 

badge, people refer to them differently and when 

we said dosimeter many times they were referring 

to pencils and not their film badge dosimeter.

So I did notice that in going back 

through some of the interviews that there is that 

little bit of -- when we say dosimeter we mean one 

thing and to many of the early workers dosimeter 
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was a pencil, not --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Well, I think at least a 

couple of the workers that we interviewed recently 

said it was sort of like you always wore your badge 

but if you were definitely going into a hot area 

then they'd give you a pencil, too, I think.

DR. TAULBEE: Right.

MR. BARTON: Several of the workers 

said that.

DR. TAULBEE: Right.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay. Well, again, 

focusing on the '70 to '74, with what extent is 

implementation of that dependent on DOE to making 

a -- I mean are all those records available for 

lookup now that would cover people for that time 

period?

DR. TAULBEE: For that time period, no. 

There are individuals who did not make it into the 

dosimetry system that there is -- For example, if 

they never had a positive dose they would not have 

made into their dosimetry system and that is what 
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is being coded now.

MEMBER MELIUS: For that, for the '70 

to '74?

DR. TAULBEE: That's correct.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay. And that's the 

six to nine month?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

MR. KATZ: If the Board were to add a 

Class now, how would DOL -- in March, what would 

DOL do in the interim, they would process what they 

can, but how would they know which ones fall in the 

category of --

DR. TAULBEE: Honestly if I were them 

I would start with the about 400 to 500 that we've 

identified as being in CPP and start working those 

through.

MR. KATZ: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Because we know those 

folks are clearly in the Class, yes, and that would 

take a long time period.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: But you don't know 
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that they --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. KATZ: But they'd have to be 

conservative about rejecting claims at this point?

DR. TAULBEE: They'd have to be 

conservative about rejecting until DOE gets that 

done, sure, but I don't know how long it takes them 

to process 400 to 500 claims.

MR. KATZ: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: I think it takes quite a

while. And then you've also got the time period 

of the Board voting and then the time for the 

Secretary and the time for it to become final and 

the time to be posed in the Federal Register.

So there is significant lead time 

there.

MR. KATZ: Yes, it's a couple months.

MEMBER SCHOFIELD: But do you have any 

idea how long that will take?

MR. KATZ: Phil, is that you?

MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes.

MR. KATZ: Oh, welcome. I'm glad to 
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hear you.

MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Thanks.

MR. KATZ: So just for the record, Phil 

ordinarily chairs this Work Group. He also has no 

conflict of interest.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I think we said 

six to nine, or six to nine months or up to a year, 

Phil.

DR. TAULBEE: Six to nine months is 

what the site said.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Six to nine 

months.

MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Okay, thanks.

MR. KATZ: Why don't I just check while 

we're -- Is Dr. Richardson, are you on the line as 

well?

(No response)

MR. KATZ: No, okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: And so do we have 

temporary badges for other parts of the INL that 

have not been processed?

DR. TAULBEE: We just captured them.
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(Laughter)

MEMBER MELIUS: A likely story.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Maybe --

DR. TAULBEE: No, we literally did in 

January when you all were out there, that was what 

-- Mitch and I went out that first week of January 

and we pulled, what, 22 boxes of these things and 

tagged them and did not get the scanning done during 

that week.

MR. FINDLEY: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: Jennifer and Art were 

back out the week that we were doing the interviews 

and they completed the scanning of that, but we have 

gotten the release for AEC for some of it but not 

all of it yet, and so -- yes?

MR. STIVER: So, Tim, these represent 

all other sites at CPP during the SEC period?

DR. TAULBEE: Well it does cover CPP 

outside of the current time period, but we also were 

grabbing MTRs for testing --

MR. STIVER: Taking everything you 

find, right.
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DR. TAULBEE: Every temporary badge 

report we could find.

MR. STIVER: Yes.

MR. BARTON: And that was starting 

1968, right? Wasn't there a certain time period 

in the SEC that we need these visitor badges for? 

Because I thought when I was asking before about 

the difference between the temporary badge reports 

and the visitor cards you had indicated that we 

haven't captured the visitor cards for this early 

period at CPP.

So from this, what we are looking at 

here, do we have those visitor badges now or do we 

just have the temporary badge report printouts?

DR. TAULBEE: We just have the 

temporary badge reports. From the -- to answer, 

I think, your question there, John, the time period 

that we have it's all other areas, but basically 

any temporary badge report that we could get as well 

as any of the visitor cards that we could identify 

as well that were not within -- we captured all the 

CPP ones earlier, we got all those.
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MR. STIVER: Right, already did that.

DR. TAULBEE: These would be the 

visitor cards for MGR, the visitor cards for other 

areas. The ones we did not get, which I have a 

question for the Board on, of if you are wanting 

100 percent verification for some people we did not 

capture the NRF ones.

And some of the construction trades we 

would be able to place at NRF if we captured those 

cards, but that's been outside the program. But 

if you want 100 percent type of verification and 

have zero tolerance for whether or not they were, 

or where they were during this time period we would 

have to capture those cards as well to try and 

index.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Well, that's a 

conundrum, isn't it, because it's outside but yet, 

then you wouldn't say well there is three years we 

can't figure out where he's out, so where is? Oh, 

he could be at CPP or oh, wait, he is here, so, yes.

DR. TAULBEE: I mean if you -- That's 

up to you all.
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MR. BARTON: But they also could have 

been in non-radiological areas, in which case you 

are still going to see gaps when, you know, for the 

same kind of issue.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, which gets back to 

the weight of evidence there. I mean I feel quite 

confident that we have now identified all of the 

temporary badge reports for CPP and all the visitor 

cards, that this group is complete.

MR. BARTON: Well, I guess to circle 

back to my question though, how do you know that 

if we did capture the visitor cards for this earlier 

period, like you'd expect that they'd match up to 

the exact number on the temporary badge reports, 

right, or we don't really know --

DR. TAULBEE: I would expect, yes.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: No, I have not -- I mean 

--

MR. BARTON: Yes. I mean how did you 

come to the conclusion that, was it '68 that the 
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problem was first identified, 1968, that they, if 

you had a zero dose on your visitor card you weren't 

entered or --

DR. TAULBEE: When was that? I think 

it was earlier than that. I think they started 

doing that in -- Yes, '66 is when we, when they 

started doing that to where that they --

Let's see, to read from that initial 

report, this is when a person has a badge and if 

no number, this would be a positive match, if no 

number is found a number is assigned to the 

individual and the above record is prepared, so if 

they had a positive dose.

Approximately 98 percent of the 

visitors receive statistically zero exposures and 

these data appear only on the visitor list prepared 

at the time of the badge servicing, which would be 

your temporary badge reports, visitor list there.

These lists are retained indefinitely 

as well as the film in the case any question should 

arise at a later date. So they were keeping the 

temporary badge report and the film are the two --
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MR. BARTON: And so this was a policy 

change that this document is referring to?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Which is why the 

split in the years?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. So they considered 

this temporary badge report as their permanent 

record of exposure for this person.

MR. BARTON: I mean eventually we're 

going to get those CPP badges for nothing else than 

the dose reconstruction angle, right?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Is that what it was?

DR. TAULBEE: Well, which is, like I 

said on the January report is really the big, is 

a bigger issue, or it's a big issue for us because 

we've got some people who were getting daily badges 

in different areas.

MR. BARTON: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: They're all zero, but 

from a missed dose perspective it's huge.
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MR. BARTON: Right, a missed dose.

MEMBER MELIUS: Back to the '70 to '74 

and the NRF issue and so forth, so what are we saying 

in that Definition, like who were monitored for 

external radiation at INL?

DR. TAULBEE: Anybody who was badged. 

Anybody --

MEMBER MELIUS: At INL?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: So that would not 

include NRF?

DR. TAULBEE: That's correct.

MEMBER MELIUS: But if we were doing 

dose reconstruction for those people that's still 

considered separate?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. We do not -- We --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: Our understanding is 

we're not allowed to add the NRF dose.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, that's what I 

wanted to make sure.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. And we don't.
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MEMBER MELIUS: And I just want to make 

sure that the Definition --

DR. TAULBEE: Is the same, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: -- is excluded of that, 

okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, and just 

remind me, Tim, this goes up to '66, the A goes up 

to '70, and from '66 to '70 you --

DR. TAULBEE: I don't have anything to 

do a verification on.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: But you have those 

badges?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, absolutely.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So that's 

what the different is, it's the not being able to 

verify it with monthly reports?

DR. TAULBEE: That's correct.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. And you 

can't between, for the year of '64 either, I was 

just wondering why you didn't add that to the list 

of showing that you had it, but --
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DR. TAULBEE: Well I mean -- You mean 

post-'66 to add the temporary badges?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: We could. I just --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: It's -- Well 

that's fine, I just --

DR. TAULBEE: Frankly, I was running 

out of time to get this done.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- wanted to make 

sure I remembered. Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: It's been a busy few 

months.

MR. KATZ: Just for the record Josie is 

referencing the chart that Tim provided for today.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. Anybody on 

the phone lines have anything, any questions, 

comments on what we've been discussing this 

morning, Class Definition, temporary badges?

MR. ZINK: This is Brian Zink. I just 

wanted to make double sure, I think most of the 

questions that I thought about were answered 
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somewhere in the discussions that you guys were 

having, but the temporary badges you -- What is it 

that they are basing the decision on that they have 

all of the temporary badges? 

Is it -- was there some indication in 

records that showed that how many were issued over 

the entire period of time or what evidence is there 

that is conclusive that there aren't more temporary 

badges out there?

DR. TAULBEE: Okay. This is Tim 

Taulbee, Josie is pointing to me. The one thing 

that you probably can't see, Brian, or maybe he can, 

can he see it through Live Meeting?

MR. KATZ: No, no.

DR. TAULBEE: Okay, no. Okay. Is a 

comparison of the temporary badge reports from 

January of 1963 through December of 1965 on a 

month-by-month basis with the monthly reports of 

how many temporary badges were issued or read 

during those months.

And there is good agreement going 

through for this 3-year sampling period. So that 
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is one of the indicators for us that we feel that 

the temporary badges are complete.

The other indicator was what we did and 

reported on in the previous presentations at the 

full Board meetings of we went through all of the 

temporary badge reports and looked to see do we have 

temporary badge reports for each month, and that 

we did.

We verified of the entire Class period, 

1963 through 1974, that we had temporary badge 

reports for every month.

Now the third piece was when we went 

through and looked at 881 claims and tried to place 

the individual workers in different areas and we 

whittled it down to a grouping of 18 workers that 

we could not place, and this created a concern for

us.

And so we went back to the site and got 

additional dosimetry from them and from that we 

were able to place 15 of the 18 and three additional 

workers.

Three out of the 881 initially, we went 
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back out to the site and that's when we found that 

there were some visitor cards that if they did not, 

if an individual worker did not have a positive dose 

they were not entered into their system, therefore, 

they would not appear on these temporary badge 

reports.

And that was where we found the 

additional individuals and we have since captured 

that information for CPP in that time period, as 

well as for MTR in the other time periods.

This is what we were discussing earlier 

of how long is it going to take the Department of 

Energy to index all of these records and that 

current estimate is six to nine months.

It is a fairly large set of records, I 

want to say on the order of around 30,000 individual 

pages, something along those lines.

So that is currently what DOE is working 

on, which is why we feel that these temporary badge 

reports are now complete. I hope that answers the 

question you are asking.

MR. ZINK: Thank you, yes.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Thanks, Tim. Any 

other comments, questions from anyone on the phone 

lines?

(No audible answer)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And in the room?

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes. So the 881 was as 

of when, claims up to what time?

DR. TAULBEE: That would have been --

MR. BARTON: August to September for 

SC&A. That's when we started ours.

DR. TAULBEE: Oh, really?

MR. BARTON: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: I'm pretty sure ours is 

back May, April, May something like that.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: So that's when you 

stopped?

DR. TAULBEE: That's when -- Yes, that 

was the set that we started working with.

MEMBER MELIUS: With April or May. So 

we have additional ones?
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DR. TAULBEE: Additional ones since 

then, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: And then -- Okay, 

that's -- So is it, any estimate of how many 

additional ones there are?

DR. TAULBEE: I don't. I don't know.

MEMBER MELIUS: You don't know.

DR. TAULBEE: Could you text somebody 

to see if they can get it?

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. BARTON: Give me five minutes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And you are 

looking at additional above and beyond the 881?

MEMBER MELIUS: Well is there 

something we can be doing with pending this effort, 

with of getting all this stuff --

DR. TAULBEE: Indexed.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Indexed and --

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Because there's no 
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sense in doing, trying to do any verification or 

validation or whatever you want to call it until 

it's all indexed, because if you find something 

missing then, you know, three months later it may 

appear, or do you have something that completely 

you don't know.

So I wouldn't give up on that entirely 

yet. It's got to be somewhere, but -- And then the 

other piece that we haven't done in terms of -- Well 

it was mentioned earlier, was that once you, when 

you went through these cases, once you put them in 

the SEC then obviously you stopped looking at their 

information?

DR. TAULBEE: Absolutely.

MEMBER MELIUS: So there is additional 

information there that might shed some light, for 

those individuals that might shed some light on the 

completeness of the records and, you know, how much 

I'm not sure, but the --

DR. TAULBEE: Right.

MEMBER MELIUS: But given that it's, 

you know, 18 cases it's probably not a huge --
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DR. TAULBEE: Right.

MEMBER MELIUS: -- effort to re-look at 

that stuff and --

DR. TAULBEE: Actually it would be. 

Let me clarify as to why I think it would be.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: The 18 we're down to when 

we couldn't place where they were, okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes. Yes -- No, 

you're right it's more than 18. It's really --

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Because if we wanted to 

go back we'd be looking at a lot more.

DR. TAULBEE: Right. And remember 

that up until early this last September I believe 

DOE was only providing annual summaries to us if 

they had a low dose.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: And so they now are 

providing the full record, but all of those older 

cases, when we found a single CPP badge, you know, 

even if it was just an annual record, we stopped 
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looking and if you wanted to try and get their 

entire history we'd have to go back to the site and 

have them work up their whole history.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: And it took from October 

through the end of December to get those 18. So 

if you are looking at, you know, ten times that, 

180, you're looking at a lot more. And, by the way, 

the same resources that are indexing all of these 

visitor cards are the same people that pull that 

information for DOE.

That's why I say it would be a big 

effort.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I think my biggest 

problem with this is we don't know what's missing 

until we put this in place and then we have that 

group of people that say hey, I was there or -- We 

don't know it's missing until later.

I mean the uncertainty factor comes 

into play.

DR. TAULBEE: Can I ask what the harm 
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would be to get the Class going and then, I mean 

we can process several hundred, you know, 400 to 

500 now and then we're down to a smaller group and 

if we run into some of that then we can address it.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That takes a long 

time though, too.

MR. STIVER: The other aspect is that 

it kind of goes to the back of the line at that point 

-- SEC because others that are more pressing, you

know, that are still under review. I mean would 

that mean Idaho kind of gets to the end of the line?

DR. TAULBEE: I don't think so.

MEMBER MELIUS: Well --

DR. TAULBEE: I wouldn't think so.

MEMBER MELIUS: Tim, you've repeatedly 

told us that you couldn't put more effort into this 

because you had other issues to deal with at INL 

and Argonne, so --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So, yes, and the 

other thing is --

DR. TAULBEE: Okay, all right.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- change the 
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Class Definition to include everyone and then 

everyone is included in this discussion is done, 

right?

DR. TAULBEE: But how do you -- I mean 

to me you are now -- like I said the EBOR example. 

You've got a huge weight of evidence of some people 

that were not exposed at CPP, that were never there, 

they were 25 miles away.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And we grapple 

with that at all sites in -- I mean I can remember 

a couple, the hospital one was one where it was a 

small section but they couldn't pinpoint that down 

so the whole -- Anyway --

DR. TAULBEE: But this is what we've 

done at CPP to be quite honest, okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: The area where the 

transplutoniums are is the access corridors, the 

operating corridor, and the labs, okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Or outside.

DR. TAULBEE: Now I can't tell you when 

somebody goes inside the gate whether they went to 
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those areas.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: But that's where the 

exposure that I can't reconstruct is. That's 

where the exposure to the plutonium is that is 

separated from the fission products.

So they come into the gate, they could 

have gone there. Many of them went and worked over 

at the calciner. Many of them went and worked over 

at the Tank Farm Area where we can reconstruct the 

doses.

So we started with the Class of who went 

into that gate then, okay. Everybody wore badges, 

we heard that through the interviews, so that was 

our initial Class that we casted. Why? To 

include everybody who went in, had the potential 

to go into that area.

Okay, now we found that 1970 to 1974 

people could have gone into the gate that were not 

on the CPP dosimetry roster or the CX dosimetry 

roster.

And so now we had to cast the net wider 
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to include others that could have gone in past and 

not appeared on one of ours lists, okay. And the 

reason for the single badge again, in the early 

years there wasn't annual badging.

It was 12, it was 12 film badge 

dosimeters. We've made it one so that we don't 

have from '63 through '67 you have to have 12 

dosimeters in CPP for a full 250 days, because we 

felt the Class would become unwieldy then to 

administer.

So a single badge, one badge, is all 

that we were requiring to go in. So we cast the 

net very large to include everybody who had the 

potential of 250 days exposure in CPP.

Now the issue came up of the temporary 

badges. Okay, we've got people coming in. The 

longest wear period we see for any of these badges 

is 12 days, two weeks, we'll call it two weeks.

So that would be mean for somebody to 

have 250 days on temporary badges in there we would 

be missing 26 badge reports for that same 

individual over this whole time period for them to 
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have 250 days.

All we are requiring is one, one single 

badge to be in there. I do not believe we are 

missing any -- I don't think we are missing any, 

but I certainly do not believe we are missing that 

volume of temporary badges here for anybody.

And that takes into account if they were 

always on a 2-week badge interval. Most of these 

badges are a single day.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: A single day.

DR. TAULBEE: So there would be 250 of 

these for a year's worth of exposure within CPP. 

But, again, we are requiring a single badge, one 

day in CPP, 250 days, closure.

So I think the net has been cast very 

wide to be claimant-favorable to include everybody 

that had that potential for plutonium exposure in 

the access corridors, the operating corridors, as 

well as the laboratories.

MR. KATZ: For the record Dr. 

Richardson is on the line. He has no conflict for 

this site.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MR. BARTON: I think, Dr. Melius, to 

answer your question, there are by my accounts 912 

claimants with at least some employment during the 

two SEC periods, so about 30 more.

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So about 30 more?

MR. BARTON: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: And I believe your --

it keeps sort of glossing over the fact that you 

don't have the records to verify 250 days CPP for 

anybody by the nature of their, or at least not that 

would be implementable in terms of an SEC Class.

DR. TAULBEE: I certainly don't have 

them beyond 1967 when TLDs were issued, because 

they could be worn a full year.

MEMBER MELIUS: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: In this earlier time 

period, yes, and they could not have worn them --

They did not issue the film badges for more than 

--
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MEMBER MELIUS: So why not propose that 

as the Class?

DR. TAULBEE: It would become more 

difficult. We could from that standpoint, but it 

certainly makes the Class Definition even more 

difficult and that seems to be one of the problems 

that you seem to be bringing up to me is that the 

split Definition is complicated and so that just 

makes it more complicated.

MR. BARTON: And more restrictive, 

too.

DR. TAULBEE: It would be more 

restrictive.

DR. NETON: I have a question. I'm 

kind of sympathetic with Tim's discussion point 

that, you know, this Class is, you know, could get 

moved forward and some people could get paid, and 

I am just wondering is there any agreement at all 

like in the '70 to '74 time period where it's just 

one badge only anywhere on site?

I mean is that something that people 

could agree on, the Working Group? If that were 
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agreeable I mean I don't know why we couldn't just 

propose that piece.

We've done this many times before where 

we're just suggesting, or adding a Class for that 

period and reserve the other ones and solve the 

other issue that's still under investigation by 

NIOSH.

MEMBER MELIUS: I would be amendable to 

that because -- We keep jumping around here between 

time periods, but I would be amenable to that.

I would like some clarifications from 

DOL there is an understanding or communication that 

people that were rejected, because remember if we 

stayed in two or three months and you start 

implementing that part of the Class people that 

were rejected because the temporary badging would 

not have yet been completed, for the indexing, so 

that those people don't get the no, they get put 

on hold pending, you know, the completion of the 

information that would be needed for the 

verification.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I'm glad you 
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mentioned that, Jim, because I was wondering and 

was going to ask if we could separate that out.

DR. NETON: Yes, I'm not sure --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Not sure.

DR. NETON: -- how logistically this 

would work because you have a Class Definition in 

the ER already.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. NETON: -- but I guess it could be 

modified and proposed and say that the other one 

is reserved pending further review. We've done 

this.

MR. KATZ: Well the Board can make a 

recommendation for the Class --

DR. NETON: Oh. Oh, that's true, yes.

MR. KATZ: -- however, it's not a --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: Yes, we wouldn't have to 

revise it.

MR. KATZ: There's no limitation.

DR. NETON: Good point, good point.

MEMBER MELIUS: We'll call it the Neton 
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--

(Laugher)

MR. KATZ: The Neton variance.

DR. NETON: I mean then we could at 

least move that --

MEMBER MELIUS: The Neton amendment to 

the Taulbee definition.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So let me see if 

I get this correct.

(Simultaneous speaking)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So if we were to 

decide to separate out A and B based on the years 

we would go forward with the second portion, the 

-- get my glasses on -- the '70 to '74 and then the 

first portion we would wait potentially until we 

could validate and verify the temporary badge 

situation, is that what I am hearing?

DR. NETON: Correct.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MEMBER ROESSLER: And it seems like the 

Work Group would report to the Board at the meeting 

in Tampa that this is our recommendation and then 
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as Tim says then that could move forward because 

the Board could decide.

DR. NETON: Yes, this four years could 

move forward. We've done this at many sites.

Or not many, but several sites, the 

piecemeal, not piecemeal, but, you know, 

incrementally add that --

DR. TAULBEE: At many sites, yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So, and I know, 

Jim, you have been questions about that second 

period. Any drawbacks that our contractor or 

anybody on the phone can see from doing something 

of that nature, separating out the two dates, time 

periods?

MR. BARTON: Well the drawback was the 

visitor cards aren't coded yet. I mean --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: They're not coded 

yet, yes.

MR. BARTON: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: And that's where --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. BARTON: And then that still 
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applies to the '70 to '74 timeframe.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: -- get DOL, what, to read 

those that are rejected on hold pending this --

(Simultaneous speaking)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Those later 

times, those later dates.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. Because, yes --

All right.

MR. KATZ: Well we can work on getting 

that confirmation from DOL about that, right?

And I have seen some email traffic that 

DOL does not have any concerns with the proposed 

Class, the latter Class.

MEMBER ROESSLER: I like this 

approach.

MR. KATZ: Phil and Dr. Richardson, do 

you have any comments on this approach?

MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes, I just had one 

thought though that I don't know if there is, for 

records, is it possible the Union has any records 

that might potentially cover anybody that they 
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don't see a temporary card for?

DR. TAULBEE: Well the difference 

would be if they went out and did site, or did work 

in a non-radiological area they are not going to 

have a temporary card, and I am sure that that 

occurred, but that did not occur inside of CPP where 

this exposure was.

MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, and the 

construction Unions would keep records by employer 

and that contractor could be any place on the site. 

I mean it wouldn't -- They'd have people in multiple 

locations on the same, you know, time period, so 

it usually isn't helpful.

DR. TAULBEE: Right.

MR. BARTON: You know, thinking back to 

July when the Class Definition was the CPP badge 

alone, you can use it on your site badge at that 

time -- Well prior to the meeting in July we had 

done a verification of the CPP badging records by 

comparing them with the monthly reports but we 

never really done the validation of the Area 
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Exposure Reports for all of the other areas of the 

site against monthly reports.

I mean that would certainly give us some

assurance that we have all the records if you can 

compare them, just like we did with CPP but you'd 

have to do them for TAN and SPERT and all of the 

other areas.

DR. TAULBEE: And SPERT, all 52 

reactors.

MEMBER MELIUS: Anybody volunteering 

to go --

(Laughter)

MR. BARTON: I mean based on the 

interviews I think it's reasonable to conclude that 

if you went into CPP you probably had that film 

badge.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Then the only question is 

do we have all those records, and that was the 

purpose of doing the CPP one way back when is to 

assure that we, or had reasonable assurance that 

we have --
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Right.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. KATZ: That's a conflict.

MR. BARTON: It sounds like a summer 

job.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Joe was having a 

hard time hearing us on the phone so if you are 

speaking please try to speak up so that we're clear.

MEMBER MELIUS: And two other things, 

and well one is can we look at those 30 whatever 

it is, you know, and just to see what's in there 

and so forth, if there's more information that's 

available and --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. KATZ: So who is doing that? DCAS, 

do you, are you going to do that or were you tasking 

this to SC&A?

DR. TAULBEE: How about both like we 

did before.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: At the same time 

or --
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MR. BARTON: We'll just have different 

sets of claimants, so --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay, that's fine.

DR. TAULBEE: Sure.

MR. FINDLEY: Hey, Bob, the 30 that you 

mentioned that's from what date, for, was that 

September?

MR. BARTON: That's -- I just looked at 

January 1, 1963, all the way through the end of 

1974. If they have any employment --

MR. FINDLEY: The 30 additional INL 

claims though?

MR. BARTON: Yes.

MR. FINDLEY: Okay.

MR. BARTON: So I have 912 total that 

had at least some employment in that period for CPP.

MR. FINDLEY: Oh, and you have --

MR. BARTON: We had 881, yes. So 

that's where the 32 --

MR. FINDLEY: Okay.

MR. BARTON: Okay.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And what were the 

dates again in '63 through '70, is that what you're 

saying?

MR. BARTON: Yes, it's just 1963 

through '74. So if you are on either side of the 

Definition.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so that --

So NIOSH and SC&A to review the 30 additional 

claims, okay.

MR. KATZ: Yes, they're both -- It's 

going to be the same exercise they did previously.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: And hopefully since 

these are newer claims we will have the complete 

record --

MR. KATZ: Which will speed it up.

DR. TAULBEE: -- which shouldn't --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. Do we want 

to see that prior to making a decision or we can 

go --

MR. KATZ: That's related to --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That's related 
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mostly to the --

MR. KATZ: -- the other Definition.

MEMBER MELIUS: This other Definition 

is what we're really interested in now.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: And then the second 

thing we need to do is think about how do we want 

to validate or whatever we want to call it for the, 

once everything gets indexed.

MR. BARTON: Right.

MEMBER MELIUS: So we can do that 

efficiently.

MR. BARTON: It might be somewhat 

problematic to be looking at those 30 claims for 

the latter period because we're going to run into 

that visitor card issue again.

Until those get indexed and actually 

put in the claim files we're not going to see them, 

right?

DR. TAULBEE: May or may not, yes.

MR. BARTON: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: It's a small enough 
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number that if they have some employment, the 

employment overlaps if it may be worth information 

--

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. BARTON: Yes, sure.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: -- of what we have.

DR. TAULBEE: We might end up with some 

that we can't resolve, but most likely -- If the 

numbers hold the way they have been, or based upon 

the previous sampling, there will be one person 

that we won't be able to resolve and the rest we 

should be able to resolve.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Well and how big 

of a sampling would we do?

MR. KATZ: Well that whole V&V process, 

not just how many you sample, but how and who and 

--

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

MR. KATZ: You need a proposal I think 

for that. No one is going to do that, right, unless 
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someone already knows how they would do it.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, I would ask SC&A 

to do a, come up with a protocol for doing that.

MR. KATZ: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: And then you can talk 

about them and then after we implement it we can 

discuss it and so forth, is that -- Yes.

MR. KATZ: Okay, good. So SC&A will 

develop a draft proposal, or a protocol.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes. And if we find, 

and if in the 30 cases we find somebody else that 

has 12 spellings of their last name we'll --

MR. KATZ: That's for the first period 

Definition.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: So do you want me to, I 

could briefly go through the ERC CADRE --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Well let's make 

sure, let's finish this up before --

DR. TAULBEE: Okay, I'm sorry, I 

thought we were finished.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, let's --
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(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER ROESSLER: -- doing here.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, let's go. 

So, David, any thoughts from you on this idea or 

suggestions that we're moving forward with here?

MEMBER RICHARDSON: I think it sounds 

good.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So you're 

in agreement?

MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So the 

proposal is to bring to the Board to separate out 

the two, A and B, and recommend that we go forward 

with the Class using one TLD at INL from March 1, 

1970, through December 31, 1974?

MEMBER ROESSLER: Basically take the A 

part of the current description.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Class, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Right.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And then we would 

leave up to NIOSH how you would fix the ER --

DR. NETON: Reserve the second part of 
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the Definition.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Well the Board is 

effectively reserving --

DR. NETON: Well, yes, until we --

(Simultaneous speaking)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So that would be 

part of our discussion?

DR. NETON: It would be part of the 

record, yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. NETON: Yes, it should.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So is 

everybody in agreement then, it sounds unanimous 

here, any reservations or problems anybody can see 

with that?

MR. BARTON: Well even if you vote it 

through before we actually do any validation on the 

other site areas we really wouldn't know if we have 

all the records for those other site areas that are 

being used in the '70 to '74 period, which is the 

requirement.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So is that 

problematic then?

MR. BARTON: Well if you vote on the 

Class Definition and then we actually do the 

verification and find out well we're missing 

certain records in this year for this area of the 

site then you certainly have to consider modifying 

it I guess to --

MR. KATZ: The V&V was for the second 

Class Definition. I mean the first Class 

Definition not the second.

(Simultaneous speaking)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: No, it's for the 

first Class.

MEMBER MELIUS: Well but there are --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, it spans both. I 

guess I'm less concerned about the, it's just 

putting out a wider net that yes there may be, if

we find something missing then maybe we have to 

modify it again, but -- and then it's everyone who 

worked. I mean that's the next --
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Right.

MEMBER MELIUS: -- your next step back. 

But I am less concerned about it given the wider 

net than I am about the, when you narrow it down 

to just one area of the CPP.

MALE PARTICIPANT: Sure.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So then 

the three actions that came, or actually two, SC&A 

and NIOSH are going to review the 30 additional 

claims out of the 181, and then how do we go about 

validating and indexing the temporary badge 

reports, SC&A is going to --

MR. KATZ: Draft a proposal.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- draft a 

proposal for the Work Group. And then it looks 

like for me, need to report what we've decided to 

the Board in Tampa.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. Is that 

everything?

MR. KATZ: Right. And I have -- We'll 
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have an expedited transcript of this meeting so 

that will be ready for the Board meeting as well, 

so people can actually read what the discussion was 

today and the prior meeting is already up there and 

available.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And, of course, 

January's -- Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: From NIOSH do you need a 

presentation or anything on our end or do you have 

it, Josie, about the discussion?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I think I do.

DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I mean, of course, 

you'd want to be available for questions because 

I am sure there is going to be lots of questions.

DR. TAULBEE: I'll be there.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So, you know, I 

don't think it would be a bad idea to --

MEMBER MELIUS: I think it's 

straightforward enough I would just --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: You think it'll be 

okay?
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MEMBER MELIUS: Tim's there, so let him 

-- We got the -- He's already got 620 slides for 

--

(Laughter)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: It will be much, much 

less.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: We've seen them a 

couple times.

DR. TAULBEE: I learned from the last 

--

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I guess I can do 

the presentation and be available for questions if 

there are questions.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

MR. KATZ: So do you want from Tim any 

presentation on any of the other matters that 

doesn't bear on the action, for example an update 

on what you've done for the Part A and --

MEMBER MELIUS: I think the Work Group 

can do that.

MR. KATZ: Okay.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MR. KATZ: Okay. All right, good.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Take you off the 

hook. I know Gen's -- One more thing before we move 

on totally. Gen, you were asking for kind of like 

an overview, is that something we can talk about 

now or later?

MEMBER ROESSLER: Well I think we just 

-- I think later maybe.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, I think we 

should do that. I think we just focus on this and 

get this and I think the crux of it will be to 

explain why.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MR. KATZ: Good.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Why we're 

recommending the change and then what's going to, 

what we're going to do to proceed on with the other 

part of the Definition.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Sure. Yes, okay. 

I think that makes sense. Okay. So everybody is 
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satisfied with that discussion before we move onto 

the next part of this? Okay, hearing none I guess, 

Tim, you had a report that you sent out on the --

DR. TAULBEE: Okay, and which one do 

you want to discuss?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Let's go with the 

CADRE.

DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Let's do that one.

DR. TAULBEE: So with the CADRE Report, 

this was an observation that SC&A raised on the 

Class Definition and it stemmed from a 2011 

document where CADRE was listed as believed to be 

located at CPP.

This is on the Figure 4 on the beginning 

of that particular page. And so we did some 

follow-up here, what was CADRE and where, you know, 

what was this particular group.

And so we went back to the Personal 

Exposure Reports, which are also known as the Area 

Exposure Reports, and we found that CADRE was 

listed as a contractor and the area was listed as 
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ERC.

And when you read through historic INL 

documentation they refer to CADRE primarily around 

the SL-1 area and CADRE referred to the military 

personnel, and in the reports, you know, they talk 

about the CADRE in that sense.

And we found the same language in the 

1959, prior to the SL-1 accident, but when the SL-1 

was operating and being built references to CADRE 

in that same general context, a view of the CADRE 

at SL-1, a view of the SL-1 CADRE, a U.S. Army 

Engineer Reactors Group, and then the CADRE 

training building, and so it was all following 

along that particular line.

When we went to the Area Exposure 

Reports and started looking at the individuals I 

started to notice some names that were what I would 

say prominent people at the site that didn't seem 

to be placed into somebody who would have been 

working at CPP at that time.

And so then we started to go through the 

names individually, and that is really the bulk of 
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what we did here, and you can go through the 

attachment and you can see that there is a very 

large number of division directors or division 

chiefs, the site general manager, the deputy 

manager, all people that would man an Emergency 

Response Center.

And that was what the photographs were 

indicating ERC stood for, was Emergency Response 

Center, and they were looking at offsite locations 

up in Rexburg or in Idaho Falls for this particular 

facility.

So when you look at all of these some 

of the other jobs that were in there were health 

physicists who had accident experience, they were 

involved directly in SL-1.

There is meteorologists in here that 

you would want for wind plumes, especially from a 

release of a reactor of this magnitude, and then 

you would also see other people, communications 

specialists and security division and so forth.

So these are the people that we found 

within this CADRE group for ERC. So using a weight 
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of evidence approach we have come to the conclusion 

that really CADRE should not be listed as CPP in 

that initial table.

It really is an offsite Emergency 

Response Center type of group with these people, 

because I would not see the site general manager 

really inside of CPP.

So that's generally our conclusion to 

the Work Group.

MR. STIVER: Tim?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, sir?

MR. STIVER: When was the Emergency 

Response Center located in town? I thought that 

it would totally make sense that it would be onsite 

so that it would, you know, promptly --

DR. TAULBEE: The last set of photos 

that we looked at here, I want to say that 1965 is 

when the photo index indicated that the offsite 

ERC, or actually they did call it offsite ERC. 

They had an onsite on and an offsite one.

MR. STIVER: Yes, I think, one of the 

interviewees back in the end of January.
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DR. TAULBEE: Yes. It's now called 

the Warning and Communications Center, the WCC. 

That's the current one in which that they use.

MR. STIVER: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: And by the way one of the 

individuals that was listed here that you all had 

identified as having CADRE, one of the 

communication specialists in his CATI he indicated 

that he worked at the Warning Communications 

Center.

MR. STIVER: Okay.

MR. BARTON: Did you say there was an 

Emergency Response Center offsite and onsite?

DR. TAULBEE: I mean I don't know that.

DR. NETON: Well it's not unusual.

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: I mean, you know, if the 

site, if a situation got so severe then they would 

always have, a lot of times people have an offsite 

facility to take over.

MR. BARTON: Right, kind of a backup 

facility.
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DR. NETON: To back up, yes.

DR. TAULBEE: What I also find 

interesting with these badges is that there are 

three distinct time periods, this spans '62, '63, 

and '66, but the dates of those reports, if you go 

through them, are from three, I don't know if these 

are events or if these were activations of it, but 

they all have the same dates.

October 2, 1962, is the first three 

pages, December 11, 1963, are the next three pages, 

although there are some for December 5th and 6th 

within that group, and then the last one is March 

21, 1966.

There is one that is 1964 in there, but 

-- So they are, they seem to be distinct events or 

what you would call call-ups of the Emergency

Response Center. Activation.

MR. BARTON: If they were offsite why 

would they even be badged?

DR. TAULBEE: In case they had to go 

onsite.

MR. BARTON: But then they -- I mean 
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this is the '60s so they would get a badge wherever 

they went to.

DR. TAULBEE: It depends upon where the 

incident was. If you think it from SL-1 you had 

to be badged to go into SL-1 but when the accident 

happened fire trucks responded and so forth, the 

dose rates were so high they pulled back and they 

would pull it back down the street, so they didn't 

have a supply of badges there, and that could have 

been one of the lessons learned that, you know, a 

command center, you might not be able to issue 

those.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Especially those badges, 

they were already overexposed by the time anybody 

got there.

MR. BARTON: All right. Yes, because 

they are all zero it seemed.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. That's it.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: All right, any 

other discussion on CADRE.

DR. TAULBEE: So can we consider that 
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one closed?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That's what I'm 

looking to SC&A.

MR. BARTON: Now what's sort of a 

parallel issue, and this goes back to the November 

meeting and I think it was Phil who brought it up, 

asking about firemen and, you know, responding to, 

the actual people that would respond to say a fire 

at CPP.

DR. TAULBEE: I would like to respond 

to that one separate from the CADRE because I can't 

--

MR. BARTON: Okay. I didn't know if it 

was on the agenda.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I think it was 

brought up at the same context but it's two separate 

issues.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: Exactly.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so just 

talking about the CADRE, the firefighter one is 
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still on the table.

DR. TAULBEE: That's right, and we 

still owe you a response on that.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And we have the 

report. Anyone on the line, Phil or David, any 

issues with the CADRE and closing it or any, ask 

questions?

MEMBER RICHARDSON: None from me.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. I heard 

from David, no. Phil, how about you?

And I thought I saw this on the matrix, 

it did make the matrix, right?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. That's why I was 

asking whether we consider it closed.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. And, of 

course, we'll talk about the matrix and update the 

matrix as we get through this.

MEMBER MELIUS: So the firefighter 

issue is still on --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That is, yes. 

It's separate though, right?

MR. BARTON: It's a separate issue.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. Okay, so 

the --

DR. TAULBEE: Actually I'm not sure if 

it is on the matrix.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: -- don't remember it, 

that's why --

DR. TAULBEE: Okay. And if it's not we 

can add it.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, I was making 

sure those two are separate and it gets added.

MR. KATZ: So that's closed?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So the CADRE is 

closed, yes, the issue of where they were located.

MR. KATZ: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So it's 

just now 10:30 let's go ahead and take a break.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Thank you, Josie.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

(Laughter)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Until a quarter to 
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11, okay.

MR. KATZ: Yes, sure. So folks on the 

line I'm going to put the phone on mute but we'll 

back up at a quarter to 11.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 10:29 a.m. and resumed at 

10:45 a.m.)

MR. KATZ: We are back. This is the 

INL Work Group. Let me check and see if we have 

our Board Members on the line back on. David, are 

you on?

MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

MR. KATZ: Great. How about you, 

Phil, are you back on the line?

(No audible response)

MR. KATZ: Okay, I don't hear Phil but 

I think we lost him towards the end of the other 

session.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so we're 

back looking at the agenda. The first bullet we 

have completed, unless there's any other lingering 

thoughts. Okay.
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So the second bullet is discussion of 

NIOSH's response to SC&A's evaluation of internal 

monitoring for the fission and activation White 

Paper that was put out October 2015, and NIOSH's 

came out February 25th.

So do we, do you want to hear from SC&A 

first, or just go right into NIOSH's summary? Any 

other --

MR. BARTON: We're pretty good --

(Simultaneous speaking)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: You're all -- it 

looked like it was to me. I just wanted to make 

sure there was no other discussion needed. Then 

Tim, go for it.

DR. TAULBEE: This is going to be real 

short.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: The SC&A comment or 

observation was that they felt that a coworker 

model should be expanded beyond the 1967 to 1970 

time period.

And really, when we were writing the ER, 
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it was, and we specified that particular time 

period, it was more to try and explain that we

clearly knew we had to have a coworker model in that 

time period for the dose reconstruction to be 

feasible.

And that was our main goal there because 

we knew they changed the monitoring from a routine 

monitoring to a one quarter of their workforce each 

year.

So they were no longer monitoring 

everybody on an annual basis or on a quarterly 

basis, and they changed it to where they were going 

to be just monitoring part of the workforce that 

was exposed.

We didn't mean to imply that we wouldn't

look at coworker model over the whole time period 

because we were certainly going down that path as 

well.

The interviews that we've conducted, 

both previously and since that, you know, since we 

started the INL Work Group discussions again 

clearly indicate that we do need a coworker model 
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over the whole time period because we do have 

workers who have indicated that if they got, and 

rad techs confirmed this, that if they got 

contamination on their hands but nowhere else on 

their body, they didn't necessarily send them for 

a bioassay. It was only when there was facial 

contamination that they would send them for a 

bioassay.

So there are certain times where 

workers could have been exposed to internal 

radionuclides, fission activation products and 

have not been monitored.

We do have thousands of bioassay, as you 

had indicated in your review. That you didn't feel 

anybody was excluded, but you did feel that we did, 

we should expand the time period.

And basically, our conclusion is we 

agree. So we will be doing the coworker model for 

the entire time period at INL.

MR. BARTON: Now, would this be one 

that would use the implementation guide, or is that 

still --
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DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. BARTON: -- kind of in the pilot 

stage?

DR. TAULBEE: It would use the --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so NIOSH and 

SC&A are in agreement. You'll use the 

implementation guide and you'll develop a coworker 

model.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Any discussion 

from Work Group members?

And that will run from the whole time 

period --

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- 49 to 70, okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. Actually it's 

going to go beyond 70.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: We will be going out into 

the 80's.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Possibly up to 90. I'm 

not sure.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And we'll review 

that when we get to that. Okay. So there's no 

disagreement, this would be put in abatement. How 

does that work?

DR. TAULBEE: Abeyance.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Abeyance, yes, 

thank you.

MR. KATZ: I mean, the question is 

closed.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: The question is, 

but --

MR. KATZ: Yes, so it's just a matter 

of if they're going to develop a coworker model, 

then they'll review it.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And review it.

MR. KATZ: Exactly.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I just didn't know 

the correct terminology of where you put that. 

Okay, there's no other discussion on that.
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MEMBER MELIUS: Do you have a timeframe 

for that?

DR. TAULBEE: We can get to that down 

here in the one on the timeline.

MEMBER MELIUS: So we may come back to 

it. But I may have some questions but I'll --

DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: I'll hold them.

DR. TAULBEE: I'm sure you're going to 

have questions, trust me.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So I asked 

SC&A to put together a matrix so that we could, the 

issues are many and we started off a couple of years 

ago back in, what, 2011 with the Site Profile. And

now we're at the SEC.

And trying to just get a handle and keep 

a handle on where we are. Even this matrix is a 

little more unusual than what I'm used to in the 

past. But because we don't have any actual 

findings, we have more observations. But it is 

together on one spot.
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DR. TAULBEE: Is it both the work, or 

the TBD issues and the --

(Simultaneous speaking)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: No, those are 

separate. Those are still separate.

DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: As they should be. 

So generally, we don't go back to the Site Profiles 

until we resolve all the SEC issues. And I suspect 

this is going to be a living, growing document.

MR. KATZ: And then some of the SEC 

issues may end up on the Site Profile.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, yes.

MR. KATZ: Matrix later.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So I don't know if 

everybody had a chance to review it or if, John --

MR. STIVER: I can say a few things 

about it.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MR. STIVER: Basically, the issues 

matrix as it stands reflects the observations that 

we made in our papers that were delivered back in 
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October.

Looking at the, you know, basically the 

CPP Class Definition and also the review of 

different areas where NIOSH felt that they could 

reconstruct doses. That would have been test area 

north, some of the reactor, the reactor modeling 

issue.

Excuse me, the use of TBD-5 Tables 522 

and 523 and OTIB-54 as index, using an index 

radionuclide to assign fission activation product 

and actinide doses, the model for FAP based on 

bioassay which we've already seen and central 

facilities. I believe those are the ones that we 

looked at.

And so what I did is I, actually Steve 

and I, Ostrow together, went ahead and set those 

up according to each one of those papers being a 

major issue with sub-issues as needed.

And basically, the observation, the 

references to it, annotations based on Work Group 

discussions and also annotations as to where we 

believe we need to concentrate effort. Basically, 
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it comes down to doing more and more data capture.

At this point, there really are no 

findings because we don't have the data we need to 

have a complete analysis of what's available and 

to draw conclusions from that.

Having said that, Bob and Joe who were 

lucky enough to escape the blizzard at the end of 

January were able to get out to Idaho and did some 

data capture there. And Joe has also done some 

follow up work out in Seattle.

And so I don't know, it's basically a 

tabulated version of the progress update that I 

gave back in the November Board meeting. So I 

don't know if it would really be a lot of, much value 

to go through each one of these line by line.

If you've already seen them and, you 

know, it's in the transcript. It's basically just 

trying to keep track of everything that's on the 

table at this point.

One other thing I would like to ask the 

Work Group for input on, I basically limited this 

to actual deliverables, to papers that we have 
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provided to the Work Group.

Having said that, there are also other

issues like the burial grounds, CPP pre-63, Ron's 

paper on the fission activation product, index of 

radionuclides.

These things are all contingent upon 

gathering new data. And so I did not, anything 

that does not have an actual deliverable assigned 

to it I did not include in the issues matrix.

If the Work Group would like me to do 

that, we could certainly add those in. I mean, 

this is kind of an oddball situation. It's not 

like we have a complete picture to work with. And 

so, you know, it's not like most of the issues 

matrices. It's kind of a living document.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. So I guess 

for me, we generally have an Evaluation Report, and 

from that you flesh out issues and that's what we 

would develop the issues matrix from.

Burial ground definitely is going to 

have some issues. So as we go, I think this needs 

to look more like, more issues need to be put on 
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this. And I believe the burial grounds will be a 

good example of that.

MR. STIVER: Okay. So we can go ahead 

and put all the issues that we are working on, 

whether or not there has actually been a paper 

delivered.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MR. STIVER: Okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Because the, I 

think, the reason I wanted to get this started is 

so we could track what's out there and what the 

issues are and where we're going, and prioritize 

them.

MR. STIVER: Right.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And I know it's 

kind of a little --

MR. STIVER: The evaluation report's 

kind of a work in progress too, so it's, you know,

we're sort of playing catch up.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. So maybe 

we'll step back a little bit. We've got the Class 

Definition kind of separated out and we'll report 
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on that and maybe take the time that we need to 

develop the matrix from the Evaluation Report.

Also, I know this needs to go on the BRS 

system.

MR. STIVER: BRS, yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I looked for it, 

it's not there.

MR. STIVER: I haven't put it up there 

yet. I wanted to get the input on flushing it out 

completely before we do that. That's just the 

mechanics of getting it.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Sure.

MEMBER MELIUS: On one of these we 

should have, for those where a paper hasn't been 

delivered, we probably should have a schedule for 

that, when to expect that paper.

MR. STIVER: Yes, I mean, that's all 

contingent on what we find in the data capture.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: But at least have 

it there so that then, like Jim said --

MR. STIVER: People decide and yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- and we can 
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prioritize.

MR. STIVER: Yes, there will be 

annotations instead of when we can make some sort 

of projection, reasonable projections as to when 

that should happen. Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, and I like 

the way you separated them out from areas. I think 

that's an important factor. You know, central 

facility, CPP, TAN. I that, and burial grounds, 

I think that's going to be important for us to keep 

track of the various areas.

MR. STIVER: Yes, and as we dig deeper 

and, you know, get more of a feel for what the, what 

we consider the main points might be, of course it's 

going to sort of get bigger and bigger and more 

complex.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MR. STIVER: We might even consider 

splitting it out of the various components 

depending on how that goes. But that's kind of 

down the road at some point. Right now we just need 

to capture it and prioritize.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, and it may 

just lend itself to that as you continue to put them 

in separately with the different facilities. ANL 

West will --

MR. STIVER: That will be a separate --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- be separate. 

That will be --

MR. STIVER: Separate --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- separate as 

well.

MR. STIVER: -- evaluation all 

together.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So any other 

comments or that you saw with this matrix that --

MEMBER ROESSLER: Josie?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes?

MEMBER ROESSLER: This leads me to the 

thing you asked me about earlier. And something 

that I guess I would like to see if this were 

possible. And I think it would help not only the 

Work Group but the Board when we're talking about 

this very large, complex site over a number of 
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years, and I've talked to Tim about this before, 

some sort of a diagram or a matrix where we have 

a listing.

Well, and this is in the Site Profile, 

but I guess I'm looking for a more simplified 

diagram of the --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: One page?

MEMBER ROESSLER: Well yes, maybe. 

The various areas on the site maybe across the top 

and the dates, pertinent dates that we're dealing 

with down one side. And then in the block, the 

status of that particular place and during those 

dates.

And under that status I guess, you know, 

where we are on it. And then maybe a link or a 

reference. Here's where you can go to get more 

information.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Sounds like the 

BRS.

MR. STIVER: Yes, that sounds like the 

BRS. I mean, that's really --

MEMBER ROESSLER: Like a what?
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MR. STIVER: The BRS will have all the 

capabilities.

MR. KATZ: The Board Review System 

which is --

MR. STIVER: The Board Review System.

MR. KATZ: -- what the Procedures Work 

Group uses now. Now another of other Work Groups 

are using it in their SCC or --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: For ease to link different 

documents to different findings.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, because then 

you would have a whole picture where you can, you've 

got it all in your head and --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. KATZ: Gen, someone can show you 

how to get to that BRS.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. KATZ: And then they have live 

links so you can get to documents that are 

associated with findings.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay, so this is 
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already available?

MR. STIVER: Oh, yes. Absolutely, 

definitely. --

MR. KATZ: It's not available right 

now.

MR. STIVER: Not right now, but it will 

be once we get the --

MEMBER ROESSLER: It will be.

MR. STIVER: Yes.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay.

MR. STIVER: BRS is available, we just 

don't have the matrix in there yet.

DR. TAULBEE: But one thing we could 

possibly do for each of the different areas where 

this is, maybe a half page summary or so for all 

of the issues at CPP, all the issues at test area 

north.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: Yes, yes. Eventually I 

think we're --

DR. TAULBEE: So that Gen can see, you 

know, what are all the issues within this area.
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MR. STIVER: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: I think BRS is --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That would be 

separate.

MR. STIVER: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Because what you 

started out with was, like, a one pager. But then 

you grew it to the BRS which is a huge area.

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: It won't do the first part 

of what you talked about.

DR. TAULBEE: Exactly. That's what 

we're trying to do.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Which I think the 

overview is one thing.

MEMBER ROESSLER: This is, I'm looking 

for an overview so each time we have a meeting --

MR. STIVER: Yes, that's different 

from the BRS.

MEMBER ROESSLER: -- I or a Board 

Member can say okay, this is a total.

MR. STIVER: Get down to see the one 
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page summary of each area.

MEMBER ROESSLER: This is a total site. 

These are the areas that are in, and if they're not 

on there then we know they're not. We keep asking 

questions about is that a part.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So it seems like 

that's a two part. The first part, Tim, can you 

develop something like that as a one-pager?

DR. TAULBEE: I think I can.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That kind of --

MEMBER MELIUS: It will be a scroll.

DR. TAULBEE: I have some ideas on how 

I can try and link those together to help you and 

other Board members.

MEMBER ROESSLER: I can see us, we got 

to keep moving along. This will help the Board, 

Board Members who are not as involved as we are.

MR. STIVER: It's only going to get 

more complex too.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: What are we going 

to call that?

DR. TAULBEE: Issues overview?
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MR. STIVER: Issues overview.

DR. TAULBEE: Issues overview.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So not to 

be confused with the matrix or the BRS, but just, 

like, a single page --

DR. TAULBEE: What I plan to try and do 

--

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Quick reference.

MEMBER MELIUS: A Roessler.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: A quick 

reference, how's that.

MEMBER MELIUS: The Idaho Roessler.

DR. TAULBEE: What I will try to do is 

develop this and tie the different issues by, you 

know, like, the BRS has a number I believe 

associated with each one of the issues, to try and 

tie them graphically into an area so that then they 

can see it as well as summary one page for each of 

the areas as to what happens.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. KATZ: That's organized by 

findings.
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(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: Findings one, three, and 

seven are associated with this area, two, four, and 

six are here.

MR. STIVER: Right.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: There was an 

instructional page that went out, I think, at the 

last Work Group meeting --

MR. STIVER: Yes, Amy put together --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- on how to get 

into the BRS.

MR. STIVER: Amy put together an 

instruction sheet.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I have a copy of 

it.

MR. STIVER: I can have her re-send it 

out.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, have her 

re-send it out.

MR. STIVER: It's pretty intuitive.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: It is, it is.
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MR. KATZ: John, I don't think it's 

going to the whole Board so I can forward the list 

to everybody.

MR. STIVER: No, but just navigating 

through I think is what we're talking about.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, it's super 

easy.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, and Josie, this 

is Joe. Keep in mind too that all the data capture 

and interviews that we're doing at the beginning 

of the year are really to see whether potential 

issues become findings as far as the ER.

So the earlier, of course, you know, the 

pre-70 for burial grounds, pre-63 for CPP for 

example. We don't have findings, these are issues 

that are in discovery right now. So in a sense, the 

listing is going to be a little fluid as we continue 

and get closer to knowing, you know, what the data 

tells us.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Right. And we'll 

talk about that more in a path forward to where, 

what we need to do as a Work Group and how much time 
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people need to develop and come up with different 

issues and findings.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, it's to the fact 

to what Gen was saying though because you really 

have three things happening at the same time for 

Idaho which is unusual for most sites.

You know, we have the ongoing review of 

the recommended SEC class for CPP workers, for 

which we’re involved with the deliberation on a 

class definition. We are going back and doing a 

traditional ER review for those years that NIOSH 

has determined it can dose reconstruct. Those are 

the earlier years, and evaluate that for the first 

time.

And then we have the reserved years that 

go later which NIOSH is still actively researching. 

And so all that's going on in parallel.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. And 

hopefully we'll get an update on that from NIOSH 

this afternoon.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes. We have to 

keep the dates in mind, and we have to keep the areas 
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in mind. And it's kind of hard.

MEMBER MELIUS: And two sites.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And two sites, 

yes. We haven't even got to the second site, but 

we will in March. Yes. Okay.

MR. KATZ: Are we going to expand this 

Work Group to cover ANL?

DR. TAULBEE: They are separate. It 

would make no sense.

Keep in mind that before the SEC 

petition, because the sites did combine at the end, 

we were combining documents for one site and 

rolling the ANL stuff into the INL. So we started 

out we were only doing one evaluation. But we had 

to split it because in the time period, they were 

two physically separate sites.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I think it makes 

sense.

DR. TAULBEE: But now they are one 

currently.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Now they are. 

Okay. Anything else on the matrix? Thank you for 
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putting that together. I know it's not finished, 

a work in progress. Comments, questions before we 

move on past the matrix?

The next one was we were looking for an 

update from SC&A on the prioritize list of the 52 

reactors. I thought you said that that was going 

to be in but it --

MR. STIVER: Yes, it's done but it has 

to go through DOE classification review. And it 

turns out that their reviewers are on vacation, 

both of them, this week.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MR. STIVER: They won't be back until 

the 6th. So I'm kind of being held up on a 

technicality. But Steve can probably give you, 

like, a thumbnail sketch of kind of what --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Sure.

MR. STIVER: You still on, Steve?

DR. OSTROW: One thing of good news. 

The 52 reactors all together which is from the list 

and Stacy's Proving the Principal book from the 

year 2000, but of those 52 reactors, we can actually 
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subtract a few right away.

Twelve of those reactors are in ANL 

West, so we're not considering that now.

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. OSTROW: The whole program to 

consider, but they're not considered either. And 

the two of them listed in Stacy's list were never 

operated all together. So it's not quite as 

daunting as 52 reactors.

As John said, we finished our 

Evaluation Report. We were prioritizing them. 

But it hasn't been DOE cleared yet, so we'll 

probably get it in a couple of days when it's 

cleared.

We looked at all the remaining reactors 

and tried to classify them in three priority 

Classes, high, medium, and low. And it was based 

on such things as the fuel type, like, the 

enrichment of uranium in it, whether it's a 

plutonium reactor, fuel reactor composition, 

things like the coolant.

And we also looked at the operating 
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regime, how they operated. This is all to 

prioritize it to see if OTIB-54 can pull it up, the 

cases they have in there. They have nine cases. 

Whether they envelope the actual reactors that I 

know.

We had done this already for the 

reactors in the test reactor area, the three 

material test reactor and the other two materials 

reactors, and we did for the reactors in TAN. So 

it turns out that if you add that all up, we have 

28 remaining reactors to categorize as low, medium,

and high.

As you know from reading all the INL 

reactor stuff, you know, the Site Profile and so 

forth, a lot of the reactors at INL were totally 

different than operated anywhere else. It was 

basically an experimental station.

It had reactors, like, in the aircraft 

nuclear propulsion area. It had reactors that 

were investigating the failure fuel that might be 

used in power reactors, the commercial reactor 

industry.
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And rather than operate within safe 

limits, they were deliberately or sometimes 

accidentally push to failure. So they operated 

differently.

Also, unlike most reactors, since these 

were all experimental reactors, most of them 

operated for only short periods of time. And 

sometimes when you were operating, they were put 

in birth mode where they produce a huge amount of 

power for very short amounts of time.

So anyway, conclusion is that the 

resulting fuel mixture, spent fuel mixtures were 

a lot different in a lot of the INL reactors than 

from the reactors that are listed in OTIB-54.

So given that, we tried to prioritize 

which ones to look at first, the high, second the 

medium, and third category low. So that's 

basically what we did. And it should be coming out 

in a couple days after DOE has a chance to look at 

it.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Thank you, Steve. 

Thank you.
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MEMBER MELIUS: Steve, how many are in 

the high category?

DR. OSTROW: Okay, I'll tell you. I 

have the report in front of me here.

MEMBER MELIUS: That's what I was 

hoping he would get to.

DR. OSTROW: Let me look. Here we go. 

We have of 28 reactors we actually categorized, 13 

are in the high category, 8 are in medium, and 7 

are in the low category.

But of the 13 in the high category, a 

few of them are very similar, like, where they did 

a series of three or four similar reactors. So 

they could be evaluated together probably. So 

anyway, 13, 8, and 7.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: When you got to 

the 12 ANL West ones, did you do anything with them 

or did you reserve them?

DR. OSTROW: The ANL West, I just, I 

also did using the Site Profile, Stacy's book, and 

a lot of independent research, I wrote for each 

reactor including the ANL ones a summary 
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description of some of the main features of the 

reactor, what they did, what the fuel composition 

was, what I can find fairly quickly. So we won't 

be starting off from zero when we do the ANL West.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Perfect. So 

that's not lost, that's all I was curious.

DR. OSTROW: Yes. As I was doing it, 

all 52, I just captured as much information as I 

could about each reactor without actually, you 

know, going deep into the neutronics of each one.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So that 

will be a carry over, and much time to digest it, 

I'm sure. Anything else on the reactors?

DR. OSTROW: Not from me.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Thanks, Steve.

DR. OSTROW: You're welcome.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Anybody on the 

phone, questions for Steve?

(No audible response)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, that takes 

us to the next discussion, the timeline when INL 

bioassay data set will be available.
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DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: Next.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. This is an issue 

that there was some miscommunication on our end 

with when this data set would get started to be 

coded. To just recap, the data set, we had coded 

it once, this particular data set.

And in the process of going through 

analysis to develop a coworker model even before 

the implementation guide, we found significant 

errors within the data set. And so we discussed 

this internally and we decided it needed to be coded 

again and checked against kind of a double key entry 

if you would, a new data coding, and then the old 

data coding to try and come up with a good data set.

The coworker implementation guide that 

Jim came out with, and if you recall we committed 

for Savannah River and INL to do two test cases 

here, and we are still planning that.

INL is falling a little bit, well not 

a little bit behind, significantly behind right 

now. There was a misunderstanding in that we 
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thought that the data was being coded or was being 

worked on at this time, and it had not.

This was discovered earlier this, well 

earlier last month, February, in that some of the 

resources working on the ER that were required to 

get the data set going. And so we have actually 

lost about three months from that standpoint.

So the current projection dates for the 

data to be cleaned up to where everybody could then 

begin to use it for the in vitro would be November 

right now. We are working with a contractor to try 

and move that up from a priority standpoint.

So we are working with them on that. 

And then the current project plan for the in vivo 

side, the whole body count would be February of 

2017, that's about a year from now. So not great 

news from that standpoint.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: What was the date 

again, December?

DR. TAULBEE: February.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: February, oh 

February.
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DR. TAULBEE: 2017, yes for in vivo.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, so we're --

DR. TAULBEE: We are talking, and this 

is a very large data set, the vitro, the in vitro 

alone I believe is around, what, 60,000 data entry 

points or something along those lines.

We have set, and other people will hear 

this when we get to full Board meeting in Tampa. 

But like, on the Savannah River data sets that we 

ran into some difficulty with them not passing the 

QA tests, and so they had to be corrected and they 

have now passed them.

But the implementation guide certainly 

set the bar pretty high for us and some of the sets 

that we thought were okay to go were not. And like 

I said, we have corrected those, applied the QA 

sampling plan to them, and they passed after they 

had been basically gone through every line again. 

So the data corrected --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So then after 

these two dates, it still takes time to develop the 

coworker model, or is that --
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DR. TAULBEE: It does, but it goes 

pretty quick.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: -- run hand in 

hand?

DR. TAULBEE: This is the long part.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: The hard part is getting 

the dataset set, if you will.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Right.

DR. TAULBEE: That and the 

documentation of their monitoring methods, the 

other aspects of the implementation guide. That 

can take three to four months. But it runs in

parallel.

The key was to get the data set going, 

and this is where I feel like we've lost three 

months. And this is my fault from not tracking it 

more closely in that while the data set's being 

coded, other things can be worked on, and then they 

marry up at the end.

DR. NETON: I'll take part of the blame 

for --
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DR. TAULBEE: No, it's good. It's 

good.

DR. NETON: We had a five percent error 

rate on the general fields, but I cited a one 

percent error rate on the actual key data field that

result itself seemed appropriate. And that's 

where we had some trouble meeting that criteria.

DR. TAULBEE: I mean, Savannah 

River's, for example, was 1.38 percent. So it 

failed but just barely. But doesn't matter.

DR. NETON: Citing a 95th percentile 

based on the data and you can't code it within five. 

You know, if you have a five percent error rate on 

the data, what does that really mean? So I thought 

one percent on the critical field was appropriate.

And you should be able to code data. 

Basically transcribing information from one point 

to the next. But that did cause a little bit more 

delay than I certainly expected.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, any 

questions?

MEMBER MELIUS: So is there any way to 
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speculative, shoot me down if this is wrong, but 

is there any way of looking, taking a look at the 

bad data set and looking at some of the parameters 

of the implementation guideline in terms of 

reaching certain initial assessment on what's 

going to be, might be infeasible to do for coworker 

modeling?

DR. NETON: Potential stratification 

and using the full data set as it is?

DR. TAULBEE: For INL? I'm not sure 

because one of the major problems that we ran into 

was the area indicator and the variations of MTR 

and TRA, ETR, ATR all being spelled out kind of 

differently but it's all one area, the test reactor 

area.

So what was one of the areas, we had, 

like, 14 variations within the data set for the same 

area. And so it just trying to marry that all up, 

and then finding errors within that was what was 

causing --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: I think it's worth taking 
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a look at, though. I would recognize, it might 

have some merit there to move things forward. If 

you know you can't do it with the bad data, well, 

I'm not sure.

MEMBER MELIUS: Well, you can at least 

identify the issues and then you decide, well is 

this issue going to be resolvable when you have a 

better data set.

DR. NETON: I think we can take a look 

at it, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: I mean, you've already 

identified the issue. To me that's to take an 

initial look at it and I think you could do, that 

wouldn't be problematic unless you worried more 

when people were --

DR. NETON: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: -- you know, and you 

could, you weren't sure how to resolve, they were 

put into a totally different area or missing or 

something. Just, again, when I look in the data 

set, I don't want to over --

DR. TAULBEE: We can look at that and 
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give you some feedback on it.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, how did you 

capture that, Tim? I've got an initial look at, 

you're looking at a bad data set?

DR. TAULBEE: Well, we're looking to 

see is there anything that pops out as a potential 

SEC type of an issue.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Like, even though the 

data set is bad, I can think of one particular thing 

is looking at all of the years, looking at, you 

know, do we have, are we missing an entire six month 

period here or, you know, a year period here.

There are things that we can do even 

with the bad data set from that standpoint to --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, that makes 

sense.

DR. TAULBEE: -- see if there's some 

blaring problem that would cause a problem.

MEMBER MELIUS: Sometimes your data 

will show that there was a change in monitoring.
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DR. TAULBEE: Those are clearly --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: -- but you weren't 

aware of.

DR. TAULBEE: Oh, that we weren't aware 

of, yes, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: You know, go back in 

time.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: And it may not have 

been documented or --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. TAULBEE: Sure, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: -- didn't mention or 

didn't remember it.

DR. TAULBEE: Sure, yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So is that 

something just in a White Paper, a memo, kind of 

--

DR. TAULBEE: We can do a, probably do 

a White Paper from that standpoint because it's 

going to be preliminary. I mean, we're --
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

DR. TAULBEE: We got it coded for 

coworker anyway, I mean, we agreed earlier that we 

need a coworker model for the fission products for 

the whole time period. That's definite. So it's 

one of those things we're going to do. It's just 

--

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Sure, okay.

DR. TAULBEE: -- I think Dr. Melius is 

looking for something that might be indicative or 

a problem from and SEC standpoint.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. No, that 

makes sense.

DR. TAULBEE: That's fine. So we'll 

try and do a White Paper on that.

MEMBER MELIUS: Or even where you want 

to separate out years and modify the model.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: In terms of what areas 

could be covered or, I don't, you know.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, anything 

else on that?
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MEMBER MELIUS: Just an aside. Is 

there a, I can't remember the agenda. We still have 

time, don't we?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Oh yes, we got 

lots of time.

MEMBER MELIUS: We have until, didn't 

you give us until the fourth or something, this week 

to --

MR. KATZ: I did.

MEMBER MELIUS: Oh, okay.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

MR. KATZ: Well, what do you think of 

that agenda --

MEMBER MELIUS: Savannah River. I 

mean, without a coworker model or the addition of 

the agenda, this --

MR. KATZ: No.

MEMBER MELIUS: Well --

MR. KATZ: Or do you want to just handle 

it when the Work Group parts having someone talk, 

update on that SRS?

MEMBER MELIUS: Update.
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MR. KATZ: What?

MEMBER MELIUS: I mean, it is an SEC 

issue. And I think we can get notice.

DR. NETON: I mean, we can certainly 

talk about it.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, I don't --

DR. TAULBEE: I can give an update of 

where we're at and why it's not out yet. So --

MEMBER MELIUS: But tell us about what, 

you can talk about what could be done. Same thing 

we're talking about here, makes sense to do there.

DR. TAULBEE: Well actually, there's 

two of the data sets are now fixed.

MEMBER MELIUS: Done, yes.

DR. TAULBEE: They're fixed.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, Savannah River is 

moving further along.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

MR. KATZ: Do you want a separate 

section?

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, sure.

MR. KATZ: Sure, sure.
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DR. TAULBEE: It'll be literally two to 

three slides.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: Okay, on this 

transcript. It really can't be very small.

MR. KATZ: The INL section won't be 

that long if we're not getting into much other than 

the one, right? It won't be as long.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: No, it won't. 

Well, we might go a little longer than that.

DR. NETON: We can do more than five.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. Okay, well 

good.

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: Before we get into the ALS, 

I know Joe Fitzgerald kind of out together a summary 

about the data capture efforts, to identify those. 

Maybe it would be a good time to put it in?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, I was going 

to put that in the next one. But no, that's fine. 

That's fine.

MR. FITZGERALD: I mean, either way.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Go, go ahead. 

You're there.

MR. FITZGERALD: All right. Well, I 

think we covered some of the backdrop on this. You 

know, Idaho is, the way it's framed up in terms of 

the ER and SEC is kind of complex.

The piece that I've been focusing on 

with a couple of my colleagues has been sort of a 

more traditional ER review which is the not reserve 

years, not the Class Definition per se, although 

that's being researched, but the years that I think 

NIOSH has determined to ER that they can go through 

the structural which is where the burial ground, 

that would be pre-1970, for CPP would be pre '63.

And there's some other facilities like 

the central facility there at the CFA for which we 

were also looking at the same kind of issues.

We put out a, as soon as I think Tim and 

his team finished with their onsite data captures 

for Argonne West, that was sometime late September, 

last fall, we initiated immediately sort of a Work 

Group SC&A data capture, begin researching these 
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earlier years and were able to get onsite at Idaho 

to look at the search results and to interview some 

workers.

Back in September, this was late 

September, some of us didn't quite make it. There 

was a blizzard in DC. But we did manage to get, 

I think, a number of good days in.

MEMBER MELIUS: Excuses, Joe. Come 

on.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: You have a sled dog 

too, don't you?

MR. FITZGERALD: But in any case, you 

know, again the Site Profile review, unlike maybe 

some other sites, didn't make much ground on some 

of the issues that we were of interest to us, 

including the burial ground.

So we're doing in a sense, some real 

just fundamental research, looking for documents, 

reports, interviewing former workers who may have 

had time either at the burial grounds or the earlier 

years of CPP, looking for subcontractors.
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I think that was a useful exercise, just 

really talking to a number of subcontractors, 

crafts workers, and you know, posing the question 

to them on badging at CPP. I mean, I think it's 

a very useful validation point to actually talk to 

workers and how they were badged and how they 

entered CPP and other facilities on site.

So again, I think it was a useful and 

timely way to do that. But just briefly, January 

25th to 28th was the first onsite review that we've 

done. That's not to say that Tim and NIOSH haven't 

been out there.

I think for over a year and a half, 

they've been looking at documents. So we're only 

talking about specific reports and documents that 

might be more narrow and specific to some of our 

concerns that that would be in addition to what's 

already on the SRDB are being collected.

So this is a much, in terms of size, much 

more narrow review. And I think the interviews and 

hopefully the Work Group and himself likewise, a 

number of interviews were very helpful.
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We did talk to some former workers, many 

of whom were in their 70s and 80s were talking about 

the 1950s and '60s. So again, we're going back 

pretty far. But we've had some very helpful 

discussions.

And I think some of the things that we 

learned are still being recorded as summaries that 

will be available to the Board. But things we 

heard, at least for the burial grounds, were that, 

you know, work planning was, in my view, better than 

I had thought it was.

But bioassays and perhaps in terms of 

symmetry was more scant, wasn't quite very 

developed at the time. I think we've heard that 

from a number of people.

And we did talk to some very experienced 

HPs about CPP contaminations, particularly with 

the Shift Lab, and I think some of that feedback 

is helpful to look at the reserved years on CPP if 

nothing else.

It does help to frame the period during 

which improvements were being made at CPP. So I 
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think that, likewise, is very helpful, if not 

directly to us but certainly to Tim and his team.

Again, we talked to a number of 

subcontractors. And I think that was reassuring. 

They were clear that they were afforded the same 

level of RAD protection controls as were the 

employees which, you know, if you recall in Hanford 

that was not the case, and that was the basis for 

the SEC extension there.

That was very useful to find out how 

managerial wise and programmatically how 

subcontractors and the craftsworkers were treated, 

how they were afforded the level of protection and 

the monitoring that employees were. And it looked 

like it was very comparable.

Anyway, we went beyond the onsite 

review. And there were a number of workers due to 

age or incapacity that were only available by 

telephone. And ATL was instrumental in setting up 

a number of telephone interviews that we did on the 

16th of February.

So we were able to catch a number of 
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workers that just couldn't make it to INL in 

January. And that too I think proved to be a very 

useful thing.

Just generally, things learned is 

burial ground workers in the early years were 

contaminated fairly often, did have to shower at 

the end of a work shift. And they would leave urine 

samples, but it wasn't a routine thing. It did not 

become routine until the '70s. That's kind of the 

general feedback.

Air sampling was available, but it 

didn't seem to function well in the early years, 

that's what we kind of heard. Some limited alpha 

smearing. But again, the reliability was such 

that I think that was the feedback that we heard 

from a number of sources.

And I think Tim pointed this out in one 

of his White Papers that the Work Group received, 

we had a pretty experienced health physicist, you 

know, emphasize that internal dosimetry was not 

really appreciated in the earlier years, we're 

talking '60s and late '50s, '60s, what have you.
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And more bioassay samples could have 

been taken. This is related to burial grounds and 

other facilities. But that did not really improve 

for some years, until the '70s.

At the chem plant, again, the notion was 

that contamination was progressively pushed back 

to the cells and CPP during the '80s with more 

accountability to what DOE was implementing in 

those days in terms of an ALARA policy.

But that didn't get real teeth until the 

835 regulations were promulgated in '90, '91. So 

it's beginning to get a little better enveloping 

of the time when contamination control was 

beginning to be more effectively implemented at 

CPP.

Again, these are issues in progress. 

This is sort of a quick profile of some of the more 

noteworthy feedbacks. But again, this has to be 

pinned down a lot better, but we're still going at 

it.

Just last week, I think it was last 

week, we actually chased down, this is NIOSH and 
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myself, we chased down some remaining documents 

that were at the National Archives in Seattle.

And it's still not quite certain to me,

maybe Tim knows better, but a portion of INL's 

records, these are relevant records, came to find 

their way to the National Archives in Seattle.

And so those pieces, whether it's years 

or facilities, you have to go there. And that 

review I think was helpful in just being able to, 

in my case, go through the pretty much all the 

authorization forms for RAD waste that moved into 

the site INL or across the site to the burial 

grounds for probably '59 through '67.

And it was very helpful to see exactly 

what was being handled and what kind of exposure 

rates you were looking at and what types of 

radionuclides were being packaged.

So again, the take away from there is 

I think it seems Idaho had a pretty good RAD waste 

planning process, much better than I've seen at 

other sites, which is encouraging.

Most of this, not surprisingly, was 
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mixed fission products and Rocky Flats plutonium 

contaminated waste. Pretty much confirmed that 

was 99 percent of what was being handled. No 

surprises in that regard.

What's coming up? In two weeks, we're 

going back to Idaho to look at I think the final 

sets of packages. We have some DVDs, we have 

extensive documentation on waste packages and also 

contamination control. And we'll spend a couple 

days and I think Ted's going to attend that as well 

and pretty much polish off the original data 

capture request from October.

So this should, I think, complete the 

first installment. And based on what we learn from 

all that, we'll have to decide what else we want 

to look at. But I think in general Idaho has been 

scrubbed pretty well in terms of documents.

I think the interviews have been pretty 

extensive, so we've got a pretty good running 

start. Recognize, you know, for an ER review, this 

is still the earliest stage where you're basically 

trying to figure out if there's, you know, real 
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findings that are going to be offered up in the way 

of White Papers for Work Group attention.

So we should be there, my guess, in the 

next couple months, deciding on that. So anyway, 

any questions on that?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: No questions 

here, but thank you, Joe. That was helpful to have 

that all lined out of where you're at and what 

you've been doing.

DR. TAULBEE: I can give a little bit 

more of an update on Seattle.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, sure.

DR. TAULBEE: As Joe indicated, some of 

the records have apparently been determined to be 

National Historic information, and that they have 

been transferred from what's called the Federal 

Records Center in Seattle over to the National 

Archive side of the house.

And so these records are being gone 

through and indexed and grouped together into 

folders like the RAD waste management reports from 

MTR for example, and those from CPP, they're all 
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being lumped together, or not lumped together but 

separated out by folders and indexed at the 

National Archives level.

They're not done in going through all 

of the boxes that they've gotten from FRC. They 

took us into the back to the stacks to show us and 

there were, what, was it 50?

Yes, I'm talking about the ones in the 

archives. I want to say there was, like, 40 to 50 

boxes that they have that are still up there in the 

shelves that they are moving from full sized record 

boxes into the small National Archives that are 

easier to handle, but it takes about three or four 

of those for each of the other boxes.

So they are in that process. Now 

what's interesting is that some of those records 

we had gone through a year ago in December of 2014 

as part of the initial INL SEC because some of the 

boxes that we, the new indexed ones when we went 

through them were like we've seen this before.

And so there is some overlap from a 

previous request. There's also some that SC&A had 
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gone out to in 2010, Kathy DeMers had been out there 

and we found some of the exact same forms that are 

in the SRDB that are now in the new records box.

So there's a transition that is 

happening out there, and some of it we have seen. 

I don't know that we'll be able to get a full picture 

of it until we see it, once they got it all in there 

from that standpoint.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So will you need 

to go back when they finish their archiving?

DR. TAULBEE: That depends.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Possibly?

DR. TAULBEE: That depends. I mean, 

quite possibly depending upon findings that Joe and 

his team comes up with with regards to both of the 

ERs as to whether we need to follow up and go back 

to there, from that standpoint.

But I did want to let you know that they 

are being indexed, but there is a transition that 

is happening out there.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Great, thank you.

DR. TAULBEE: And once, by the way, 
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once they are pulled by the National Archives, they 

are National Archives' records. The site cannot 

hold them back. These are permanent out there and 

you have to go there. There's no other way to get 

those records.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Interesting.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes. The ones at the FRC 

the site can pull back for us, but the ones that 

have moved over, they cannot even though they're 

the same building.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: All right. So 

one more site visit it sounds like for you all. And 

any other questions or comments on that work?

MR. FITZGERALD: To put this in, I 

think Gen's framework, we're in the issues to 

findings phase. And I think as Tim pointed out, 

once we're able to present these findings to the 

Work Group for consideration, that will then open 

it up for whatever further review, you know, both 

NIOSH and SC&A would need to do.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. Sounds 

good.
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MEMBER MELIUS: Sort of like 

adolescence to young adulthood?

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Chaotic and, you know, 

now it's --

MR. FITZGERALD: We're almost at the 

teenage stage.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So before 

we get to the ANL West, let's just make sure we have 

all the actions and kind of maybe some timelines 

for what we discussed in the first bullet. I don't 

know if SC&A if you want to, what your actions are 

or I'm just looking for some --

MR. BARTON: We have 30 extra claims to 

look at.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

MR. BARTON: With respect to the Class 

Definition.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Do we get a 

timeline on that?

MR. BARTON: We do. We can get that 

turned around pretty quickly.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Pretty quick?

MR. BARTON: Yes.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. Pretty 

quick, yes. Pretty quick, that means by tomorrow?

MR. BARTON: I'm working on it right 

now.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Are you really?

MR. BARTON: No.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: No. So fairly 

soon, in the next month or so?

MR. BARTON: Yes, maybe.

MR. STIVER: About another month or so?

MR. BARTON: Yes, a month. That's it.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so that's --

MR. BARTON: They're both doing it.

DR. TAULBEE: For us it will be two 

months.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: For, okay.

DR. TAULBEE: I mean, we're not going 

to really get to that until after the Board meeting.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: That's fine. So 

a couple of months down the road before we get those 
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together.

MR. BARTON: Get presentations.

MEMBER MELIUS: Slides, lots of 

slides.

MR. BARTON: Get the approved.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, and then how 

about drafting the proposal, is that something you 

can do now or do you need to wait until after the 

this 30 or --

MR. BARTON: Well, I guess I'm a little 

curious because I was a bit confused on what we were 

validating because I thought we were talking about 

the latter period which was, you know, the joke 

about staying at Brad's house.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: No, you're going 

to validate --

MR. BARTON: Here we're talking about 

the earlier period.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: The earlier 

period.

MR. BARTON: I guess I'm not sure. I 

mean, the SC&A team needs to get together and try 
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and figure out an approach, but I'm not sure how 

we would do that beyond what Tim has already looked 

at.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so --

MR. BARTON: I have that chart with the 

comparison of the monthly reports, and badges is 

really the best way to do it. I don't know how 

else.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So, I mean, I 

guess that's why I want to come back to it to make 

sure we were clear. So that Tim has done in the 

chart, nothing written of how and what they did 

other than maybe just counting. Are we waiting for 

validation after everything's been indexed and is 

that what we're looking at?

MR. BARTON: As I understand it, we 

have the temporary badge reports and the area 

exposure reports for that earlier period. I 

think, and I'm not sure, is there a question that 

they're not, I mean, one thing we said that we don't 

have all the visitor cards per se, but that 

indicated that although visitor cards were 
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actually entered on those temporary badge reports.

I mean, that might be one thing that 

would be worth checking out. If we find visitor 

cards that are on those temporary badge reports --

DR. TAULBEE: You could possibly do 

that, the visitor cards that we have starting in 

'68, you could compare those to the temporary badge 

reports from '68, '69, '70. Those could be, that 

could be done.

MR. BARTON: So that would be one thing 

that we can, we might take a look at. For the 

earlier ones, unless I'm going to go capture those 

little visitor cards themselves, I'm not sure what 

we can do beyond what Tim presented.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. I guess 

that might be one of our answers. So what about 

waiting until after they're all indexed and is that 

--

MR. BARTON: Well, from what I'm 

hearing there's no intent to get those visitor 

cards from the earlier years.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: All right, sounds 
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--

MR. BARTON: I mean, we can go get them, 

but --

DR. TAULBEE: I mean, we can go get 

them, but they --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Sounds like 

that's going to be part of the proposal then is 

brainstorming how to, if there is a way, there might 

not be a way to validate or verify.

MEMBER MELIUS: You could sample.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Or sample, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, yes. I'm not 

saying get them all, but sample from them.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So it might be, 

yes. Which once you come up with a proposal, I 

guess we can kind of vet it through the Work Group 

and see if there's more that needs to be done.

MR. KATZ: Is that 30 days?

MR. BARTON: That's probably not --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. KATZ: Thirty days?

DR. NETON: For a proposal.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: For the proposal.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. BARTON: Yes, we can get our team 

together, brainstorm, and put something together.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so we're 

looking for a draft proposal in a White Paper form.

MR. KATZ: Yes. I mean, it can be a 

very brief memo.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, or a memo. 

Okay.

MR. BARTON: Commit to sample and do 

the sample and --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: No, no, no. That 

will be in the proposal whether we all decided 

that's viable or not.

MR. BARTON: Yes. Okay, thank you.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Make sense? Any 

other questions on any of that?

(No audible response)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: And then NIOSH has 

got the quick overview of all the sites and the 

issues and the dates and kind of scroll. The 
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Roessler report? Oh wait, no, it's not a Roessler 

report. I'm just teasing, Gen.

MEMBER ROESSLER: Good.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay. And then 

NIOSH has the initial look if there's any problems 

with those, the data set and the bioassay coworker 

model, any potential problems. How long do you 

think that will take?

DR. TAULBEE: I'll get back to you on 

that.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: You can say six 

months. You can say, I mean --

DR. TAULBEE: At least three.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

DR. TAULBEE: Three months. Right now 

the team that would be doing some of that work needs 

to do the work to get the data coders coding.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Got you. Got 

you. And that's fine.

DR. TAULBEE: There's a template set up 

and there's things they need to be involved in.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, okay. Any 
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other discussion on those issues ahead?

(No audible response)

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: So then we get to 

ANL West. We know there's a report out. 

Anything, oh wait, sorry.

MEMBER MELIUS: You skipped over the 

reactors.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: We talked about 

the reactors.

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, but the follow up. 

We're going to get a report.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, we're going 

to, I just --

MEMBER MELIUS: I assume it's a 

proposal on, in effect on what should be reviewed.

MR. STIVER: The prioritization, yes.

MEMBER MELIUS: Prioritization. So 

the Work Group's going to have to look at that 

report.

MR. STIVER: That's something we could

just have distributed because it will be ready in 

about a week or so.
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MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, but then the Work 

Group needs to meet and see if we're going to task, 

what we want to task on.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Maybe we can do a 

phone call on that one?

MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, that's what I was 

thinking.

MR. KATZ: And it might be helpful to 

have some resource information on how much you can 

bite off in what kind of time, right? Aren't you 

going to want to know? I mean --

MR. BARTON: Yes.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MELIUS: Your prioritization 

was, like, basically cutting them in half. It was 

eight, so I mean, it's I think --

MR. STIVER: Thirteen, basically.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Thirteen high, 

eight medium, seven low.

MR. STIVER: Those highs though, they 

kind of can be grouped together.

MEMBER MELIUS: You'll get it, but we 
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need to look at that and decide.

MR. STIVER: Okay.

MEMBER MELIUS: Can you give us some 

estimates on, or we can talk about that on the 

phone, have those ready if we do a Work Group 

meeting by phone.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes. I --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: Yes, the only, yes, 

classification review is holding it up right now.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Well, I suspect 

we're going to want to talk about the draft maybe 

as a Work Group too. So there's a couple of things 

we can schedule a Work Group call. So that, the 

first action items we talked about would be part 

of that, you know, talking about the draft. So 

maybe we could correlate those together, Jim.

MR. KATZ: Was that protocol, would 

that be --

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, on the 

verification.

MR. KATZ: The V&V?
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Yes, the V&V. 

And maybe get a report out on those 30 additional 

claims. I mean, those are things that we could 

look to for a call on.

Okay. That makes sense. And yes, and 

I wasn't, I just put that as a carryover thinking 

we would get you. But you're right, Jim. Thanks 

for dropping us back there.

ANL West, I know we have the report out. 

Anything more to say on that?

DR. TAULBEE: No. We will be giving a 

full presentation to the Board about the ANL West 

SEC for those of you who seem to, we are 

recommending a Class beginning of the time period. 

So that's kind of where it is.

MR. KATZ: Thick report.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, it is a very thick 

report. It will affect your, I think your list of 

52 reactors, the ANL ones that were excluded. I 

think some of them are still going to be excluded 

because they operated in that early time period 

where we identified a significant issue.
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ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

MR. STIVER: Are we going to look at 

that at the Tampa meeting?

DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

DR. NETON: Is that report out yet?

DR. TAULBEE: Well, it's out to the 

Work Group but I don't think it is clear at the final 

public release yet. So the petitioners have not 

yet received it. As soon as it clears DOE it will 

be FedEx'd out to you, to Brian and Mr. Wolz as soon 

as we get that cleared.

But I think as John mentioned that part 

of what's holding up the 52 reactor is that the 

people in D.C. that reviewed this were out.

(Off microphone comments)

DR. TAULBEE: Which we didn't know at 

the time.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: All right.

DR. TAULBEE: Yes, as you see, it's a 

pretty lengthy report. But I think it's well done 

by my team.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Good. So then we 
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have path forward for SEC Petition Evaluation.

MR. KATZ: We've covered that.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: I think we've 

covered that. And then petitioner comments. Any 

other petitioners on the line or any petitioners 

at all wish to make comments?

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: Okay, hearing 

none, Work Group recommendation's plans for the 

March Board meeting, I think we pretty much covered 

that also. So I'll draft a report out, send it 

around to the Work Group, and then go from here. 

Okay?

MR. KATZ: That's good.

ACTING CHAIR BEACH: All right, and 

then I think we can close. We're adjourned.

MR. KATZ: We're adjourned.

(Whereupon, the meeting in the 

above-entitled matter was concluded at 11:50 a.m.)