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accuracy at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only 

1

and is subject to change. 

This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Oak Ridge Hospital Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

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reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES 

 CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION 

 NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

 SAFETY AND HEALTH 

 + + + + + 

 ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND 

 WORKER HEALTH 

 + + + + + 

 OAK RIDGE HOSPITAL WORK GROUP 

 + + + + + 

 TUESDAY 

 OCTOBER 13, 2009 

 + + + + + 

 The Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group 

meeting convened via teleconference at 2:00 

p.m., James E. Lockey, Chairman, presiding. 

PRESENT: 

JAMES E. LOCKEY, Chairman 

ROBERT W. PRESLEY, Member 

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Member 

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Member 
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ALSO PRESENT: 

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official 

ISAF Al-NABULSI, DOE 

HANS BEHLING, SC&A 

ZAIDA BURGOS, NIOSH OAMS 

ROGER CLOUTIER, ORAU (retired) 

SARA CUMMINGS, Public 

LARRY ELLIOTT, NIOSH OCAS 

EMILY HOWELL, HHS 

LARA HUGHES, NIOSH OCAS 

ARJUN MAKHIJANI, SC&A 

JIM NETON, NIOSH OCAS 

LAVON RUTHERFORD, NIOSH OCAS 

 

 

 
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3

T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S

Welcome..................................... 4 

Roll Call................................... 4 

Discussion................................. 10 

Adjourn.................................... 85 
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P R O C E E D I N G S 

 2:05 p.m. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. So let's begin 

with roll call. We begin with the Board 

Members, starting with the Chair. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: James Lockey, 

Chair. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Gen Roessler, 

member of the Work Group. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. Do we have Bob 

Presley on the line? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: He is probably on 

mute. He was on. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, I thought so. Bob 

Presley, are you with us? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: He was here loud 

and clear a little bit ago. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well, in his 

email, it looked like he was going to have to 
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go someplace because of a fire alarm. 

 MR. KATZ: Oh. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: This is Bob 

Presley. I'm back on. Something happened. 

It knocked me off line. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. Well, welcome 

back, Bob. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Bob, do you have 

a fire alarm to go to? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: We are having a 

plant-wide drill. But I'm in an area where 

you don't have to worry about it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay, good. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. So we have Bob. 

And then do we have Phil Schofield? Phil, are 

you with us? Has anybody heard from Phil? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: No, I haven't even 

seen an email from him. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. I didn't have an 
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email saying he wouldn't be with us. 

 Zaida, are you on the line? Or 

Nancy Adams? 

 MS. BURGOS: I am on the line. And 

he said he was going to be on. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. Did you just hear 

that recently? Or -- 

 MS. BURGOS: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

 MS. BURGOS: He asked me for the 

pass code. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. So -- and then 

let me just check for John Poston. 

 (No response.) 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. While we're 

waiting for Phil, why don't we go through the 

rest of the roll call. By the way, this is 

Ted Katz. I am the DFO, Designated Federal 

Official for the Advisory Board on Radiation 
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Worker Health. And this is the Work Group on 

Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 And let me go to then the NIOSH 

ORAU Team. And please state conflicts if you 

have any. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: This is Larry 

Elliott, the Director of NIOSH's Office of 

Compensation Analysis and Support. I have no 

conflict with this particular site. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: This is LaVon 

Rutherford, Special Exposure Cohort, Health 

Physics Team Leader for NIOSH. And I have no 

conflicts with this site. 

 MS. HUGHES: This is Lara Hughes. 

I'm a health physicist with NIOSH. And I have 

no conflicts for this site. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. Anyone else from 

the NIOSH ORAU Team? 

 Okay, then, how about the SC&A 
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Team? 

 DR. BEHLING: This is Hans Behling, 

SC&A. No conflict. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: This is Arjun 

Makhijani. No conflict. 

 MR. KATZ: John Mauro, are you with 

us? 

 DR. BEHLING: No, he's actually on 

travel while we're actually here talking. So 

he's probably not going to join us. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. Thanks, Hans. 

 Then let's go to other federal 

officials or contractors, HHS or otherwise. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Ted, this is 

Phil Schofield, Board Member. 

 MR. KATZ: Oh, welcome. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: No conflict, 

thanks. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Hey, Phil, is 
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that you? 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes, it is. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Welcome. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Thanks. 

 MS. AL-NABULSI: Isaf Al-Nabulsi, 

DOE, no conflict. 

 MR. KATZ: Welcome. 

 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS. No 

conflicts. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. It sounds like 

that's it for federal employees. 

 And then is there members of the 

public? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Sara Cummings. 

 MR. KATZ: Sara Cummings, welcome. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Thank you. 

 MR. KATZ: And then Roger, do you 

want to identify yourself for the record? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Roger Cloutier, 
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retired from ORAU 17 years ago. Started work 

in 1959. 

 MR. KATZ: Welcome. 

 Any other members of the public? 

 (No response.) 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. Then just let me 

say for everyone on the line, please there is 

a lot of background noise. So if you have a 

mute button, please use it. Mute the phone 

except for when you are speaking to the group. 

 If you don't have a mute button, 

please use *6, which will do the same thing. 

Press *6 and it will mute your phone. When 

you want to rejoin to speak, press *6 again. 

And if you need to leave the call, please hang 

up. Don't use your hold. Hang up and dial 

back in. And that's it. 

 Thank you, Jim. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. Well, 
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welcome. Sara and Roger, welcome to you both. 

 This is a follow-up meeting of the one we had 

last week. And we had some additional 

questions we wanted to address. And Gen and 

John were going to be taking some of the leads 

on those questions. 

 What we had sent out -- and I sent 

out just a couple of hours before the meeting, 

the JAMA article by Marshall Brucer that was 

actually referenced in the NIOSH report. And 

I found it an interesting read. 

 And just to point out that the 

actual table from this JAMA article, which is 

Table 2, which is on page 1748, was included 

by Lara in her review. So it is an 

interesting review of what was going on at 

that time. 

 Also, Gen had sent out some 

information regarding her conversation with 
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Roger. And Lara also sent out some additional 

information regarding her conversation with I 

guess it is Kapolka, is that right? Is that 

spelled correctly? 

 MS. HUGHES: Yes, I believe so. 

I'm not sure how to pronounce it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Kapolka? 

Kapolka? Mr. Kapolka. 

 So maybe we should start. Gen, do 

you want to start? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, I can start. 

 I had -- is my mute off? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: You're doing 

good. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay. I offered 

to look at some publications that Marshall 

Brucer in the `50s. I thought -- he had a 

series of vignettes -- and I thought perhaps 

in one or more of those we would find 
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something about radiation safety in the 

facility. I did not. 

 He talked a lot about the research 

that they were doing there. And it was quite 

clear that he is very knowledgeable about 

radiation and the things he was working with. 

 So since I didn't find anything 

there, then I called Roger Cloutier, who is on 

the phone with us. And we talked for quite a 

while. And I sent you a summary of what I 

thought I gleaned from his talk -- from 

talking with him. 

 And then I guess Ted decided to 

invite him to participate in our call today in 

case I didn't ask all the pertinent questions. 

 And I guess I'll just make one 

final comment is that after talking to Roger, 

who was there, who started there in `59, which 

is about the end of the period we're 
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interested in, but he knew Marshall, worked 

with him, knows about his habits of working 

and all. 

 My conclusion to all of this and 

after reading the JAMA article, too, is that 

the laboratory there, the work there was 

certainly -- and my view is that there was a 

lot of concern about radiation safety however 

I don't know -- and my feeling is that there 

were no significant exposures at the hospital, 

the adjoining community hospital. But I don't 

know how we go ahead and prove that. 

 So I think we're in a bit of a bind 

there. And that's really all I have to say, 

you know, at this point. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Gen, thanks. 

 Roger? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Hello. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Can you hear us 
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all right? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Yes, at the moment. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I think a few of 

us -- at least I have a few questions I'd like 

to ask you. And if I'm not speaking loud 

enough or too fast, because originally I was 

from Philadelphia and people in Philadelphia 

speak very fast for some reason, just stop me. 

 One of the things I wanted to ask 

you, and I appreciate your joining us on the 

phone, when you looked at the Oak Ridge 

Hospital and the Nuclear Research Center that 

was set up in a wing of the hospital, one of 

our concerns is how much did the staff 

potentially go back and forth between the two 

facilities? 

 Was there -- do you have any recall 

of that or recollection of that or any insight 

in that? 
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 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, let me ramble 

a little if I may. The period of time you are 

talking about is 1950 to `58 or `59. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Correct. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I didn't come until 

`59. So whatever I have during that period of 

time -- know about that period of time comes 

from people I knew or from records I happened 

to examine. 

 Now the first thing that caught my 

attention was in the report it talks about how 

there were adjoining buildings and things like 

that. And the hospital was there when I came 

but it consisted of a military hospital that 

had lots of wings, starting with A, B, C, D. 

 And by the time they got to Wing E, 

which was quite a ways from the main part of 

the hospital, that's the part that was turned 

over to ORAU, or ORINS at that time, to become 
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the Medical Division, in 1948 I think it was. 

 Now initially there was just a 

walkway, an open walkway with a cover over it, 

that connected it from E to D. And so the 

only connection to the hospital was through 

that walkway initially. Later on when they 

put in the LR therapy units, they built a 

section, a wooden structure, that connected 

the two buildings. But there was still only 

that one entrance. 

 So there wasn't an awful lot of 

traffic between the two hospitals because the 

main part of the hospital was way back in A, 

B, C, and so on. So that's the first thing. 

 Now just so I can throw something 

else in and then I'll let you ask some more 

questions, as I was thinking about this, I 

remembered that the Abbott Radiopharmaceutical 

Laboratory, which was -- 
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 MS. CUMMINGS: This is Sara 

Cummings. I can't hear anything of what Roger 

is saying. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I'm sorry. Is 

that Sara? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: It is. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Roger, can you 

speak up a little bit louder. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I'll try it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: As I was looking at, 

you know, what was in different things, I was 

reminded that the Abbott Laboratory 

Radiopharmaceutical Distribution Group was 

located just down the street and not much 

further from ORAU to the hospital than ORAU 

was to the hospital. And they processed all 

the iodine that came out of the Oak Ridge 

Hospital Ridge National Lab and then was sent 
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all over the country. 

 And what prompted that was that I 

noted that there is a great deal of concern 

about iodine vapors. And if I were looking at 

the situation today, I suspect I'd be looking 

at what the situation was with regard to the 

Abbot Pharmaceutical. 

 Now I'm not trying to shift 

responsibility. I'm simply mentioning that 

that's something else that was adjacent to the 

Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So your concern 

is the iodine vapors that were given off from 

the Abbott Laboratory exhausted out of the 

facility? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: That's a 

possibility. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. And that 

was close to the Oak Ridge Hospital as was the 
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ORINS. Is that right? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: It was almost as 

close but not physically connected. And the 

physical connection I already told you was 

strictly a walkway initially. And then 

became, you know, a covered in walkway that 

became part of a building. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I don't know if 

you've seen the aerial photographs of the Oak 

Ridge Hospital. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Yes, I have. I 

think -- Bob, you gave me a copy of that when 

I was down at the meeting -- when we had the 

meeting last week. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: That's correct. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. So I 

have seen that. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: So if you look at 
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it, you can see where the walkway was if 

you're looking at the early photograph. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Roger, let me go 

back then to one other question. How much did 

staff go back and forth between, I guess, Oak 

Ridge Hospital and the D Wing? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Yes. I have managed 

to talk now to several people, including 

[indentifying information redacted], who was 

here in the middle 1950s. And he corrected me 

because he said he had a joint appointment 

between the Oak Ridge Hospital and ORAU. He 

was part-time there and part-time -- I keep 

switching ORAU and ORINS so if I use one or 

the other, just imagine it is the same -- but 

he was half time Oak Ridge Hospital and half 

time ORINS. 

 He mentioned one other person that 

I've never heard of or knew, an 
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anesthesiologist named [identifying 

information redacted]. But those are the only 

two people he could think of that normally 

made the exchange. 

 Now occasionally surgeons would be 

used. And after 1945 -- excuse me, 1955, they 

did their work in the ORINS surgery. Prior to 

that, they did it in the Oak Ridge Hospital 

surgery. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So prior -- and 

that was in the NIOSH report also. So prior 

to `55, surgery was done in Oak Ridge and 

after that, it was done in the ORINS facility. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: That's my 

understanding at the moment. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: [identifying 

information redacted], I see, Lara, that you 

had tried to contact him but were 

unsuccessful. Was that correct? 
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 MS. HUGHES: Yes, I tried to leave 

a message and his answering machine kept 

cutting off. And I was not able -- I have not 

reached him to this day. 

 I talked to him briefly when I did 

-- when NIOSH did the original evaluation. 

And he declined to be interviewed at that 

time. He said he didn't think he could be of 

help and didn't want to talk to me. So -- 

 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. This 

is the Court Reporter. Was that Lara 

[identifying information redacted]? 

 MS. HUGHES: No, my name is Lara. 

I'm with NIOSH. 

 COURT REPORTER: I wanted to make 

sure. 

 MS. HUGHES: We are talking about 

[identifying information redacted], who is a 

former physician at the Oak Ridge Hospital. 
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 COURT REPORTER: Okay. Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: It is 

[identifying information redacted]. 

 But he actually worked at Oak Ridge 

-- Roger, he actually worked at Oak Ridge 

Hospital during the 1950s and worked in both 

facilities, is that correct? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: He came in the mid-

`50s, as I understand it, and he had an 

appointment where he had part-time work at the 

Oak Ridge Hospital and part-time work at 

ORINS. 

 He later moved directly to ORINS 

and I knew him when I worked at ORINS. And I 

still know him because he now lives in Oak 

Ridge again. He left Oak Ridge, I've 

forgotten, in the `60s to join IAEA. And then 

went into private practice after that 

appointment was over. So after he retired, he 
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came back to Oak Ridge. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And who is 

[identifying information redacted]? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, I've come 

across that name and [identifying information 

redacted] also gave me that name. And my 

understanding from [identifying information 

redacted] is that he and [identifying 

information redacted] were the, as I think he 

phrased it, the only two that had joint 

appointments between the two hospitals. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Was it 

[identifying information redacted]? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I believe it is 

[identifying information redacted]. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Does [identifying 

information redacted] know whether 

[identifying information redacted] is still 

living? 
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 MR. CLOUTIER: I did not ask him 

that because I was on some other subject. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. And so, 

Roger, your knowledge about people moving back 

and forth, obviously [identifying information 

redacted] said that he actually did move back 

and forth and perhaps [identifying information 

redacted] did. Do you have any information 

about nursing staff or custodial staff, 

maintenance, administration, whether there was 

any cross movement in regard to those 

professions in the two facilities? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: My understanding is 

that there was two separate groups, that the 

hospital did not provide maintenance people. 

The ORINS people provided the maintenance for 

the ORINS Hospital. And that's also mentioned 

in the report that was prepared by your 

people. 
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 With regard to food, I'm told and 

it consisted or continued when I was at the 

hospital, that the Oak Ridge Hospital would 

bring food over in a wagon. And they'd drop 

it off at the loading dock. And at that 

point, it was picked up and taken up to the 

patients. 

 Now there is a statement in one of 

the reports and in your report that says that 

Dr. Ray Hayes, who is now dead, but Ray Hayes 

was concerned back in 1951 or so about 

contamination getting on the silverware. 

 And I look at that as a -- you 

know, somebody paying attention to what's 

going on and trying to correct a potential 

problem as opposed to a real threat. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: But that would 

indicate that the silverware perhaps would go 

back and the dishes perhaps would go back to 
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Oak Ridge Hospital for sanitation. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I suspect that 

initially that is what happened. But by, you 

know, very early in the game, and I've 

forgotten what the date of the memo is, but it 

was in the early `50s, Hayes was concerned 

that the silverware would go back and I assume 

somebody took care of that. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. Hold on a 

second. Surgery -- so, Roger, the other 

question I would have is in the D Wing, which 

is ORINS Wing, they were not able to do 

surgery there until 1955. So if anybody 

needed surgery, they would be taken over to 

the Oak Ridge Hospital. Is that your 

understanding? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I have to conclude 

that, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And as far as x-
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ray procedures, if somebody needed a chest xray, again, would that be done -- would that 

have been done at Oak Ridge Hospital? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: By the time I 

arrived at ORINS, they had their own x-ray 

group. So I don't know when they got the 

first x-ray unit. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. So when 

you arrived in 1959, ORINS had its own x-ray 

group? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Correct. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: But you don't 

know when that was put in? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: No. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. And you 

think the construction and maintenance was 

done -- was kept separately in the two 

buildings? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Yes. 
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 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. Trash 

collection was separate? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I would assume so 

but I have no facts to prove it one way or the 

other. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: What about 

postmortem evaluations, the morgue? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Initially I would 

assume based on what I now know that the 

morgue at the Oak Ridge Hospital probably was 

used. But at the same time that the 

connecting structure was made, ORINS opened up 

its own morgue. So I would say early in the 

`50s, it probably was done over in the Oak 

Ridge Hospital and late `50s done at ORINS. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. Those were 

my questions. Roger, you did great. I 

appreciate it. 

 Let's just go around the people on 
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the conference and see who else will have some 

additional questions to ask. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Let me add one more 

thing only because it is on my mind at the 

moment. Late in I believe it was `58, there 

was a leak in a teletherapy source and your 

report lists what the surface contamination 

was. 

 And I went back and looked at the 

report and at one point, it talks about like 

400 -- no, I've forgotten the number but it 

was a large number of millicuries and it 

implied it was released to the area. 

 But as best as I can figure out 

from information and including a paper I wrote 

with Dr. Brucer, that was material released 

from the source but most of it contained 

within the teletherapy unit, which was later 

enveloped in, you know, polyethylene or 
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whatever you used at that time. And the whole 

source head was taken back to Oak Ridge 

National Laboratory. And in a hot cell, they 

slowly cleaned it up. 

 And I believe the big number comes 

from that measurement, not from activity 

actually released into the rooms at ORINS. I 

think the better measure of what contamination 

existed was the surface contamination levels 

measured. 

 And that led to another question 

that I had. If I were doing that back at that 

time, I'd quickly look at what was the maximum 

permissible body burden for old timers that 

was permitted at that time and a quick 

calculation showed that someone would have to 

eat an awful lot of floor or lick a lot of 

floor before they could take the maximum 

permissible body burden into their body. But 
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this is, you know, speculative just like a lot 

of other things have to be at this late in the 

day. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So you're saying 

that the high level was actually in the head 

of the unit and the actual surface 

contamination was substantially less? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, the surface 

contamination on the floor of the building -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Right. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: -- and part of that 

comes from the fact that the detection was 

first picked up because of surface smears that 

were taken around the building as part of the 

monitoring program. And contamination was 

recognized as being some place or being in 

various places. 

 And then the teletherapy technician 

happened to walk up close to a sodium iodide 
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crystal and caused it to go and, you know, 

circulate as it's supposed to do but it was 

recognized that the individual had picked up 

some contamination. And that's what led them 

back to the teletherapy room where they 

discovered the source of the contamination. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So it was 

actually picked up because of the routine 

surface monitoring looking for contamination? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, routine check 

of the building, which was done all the time 

when I was there. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. Okay, Gen? 

 Robert? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I have a couple 

of questions. I remember seeing this aerial 

photograph. I think Lara showed it in her 

presentation. 

 But what I'm trying to -- what date 
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was on that photograph? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I'm sorry, Gen, I 

didn't hear that. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay. But, in 

fact, I'm directing it to whoever had this 

aerial photograph. What date is on that 

photograph? 

 MS. HUGHES: This is Lara. The 

photograph that was shown in the presentation 

at the Board meeting, that was a photograph 

from the early or mid 1940s. And it did not 

show the two-story structure that was added to 

the D Wing of the hospital before the ORINS 

Hospital was opened. And it was opened in May 

of 1950 I believe. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: So then it is 

probably Roger, you're talking about an aerial 

photograph that showed how the buildings were 

connected? 
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 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, Lara, if I 

caught her name properly, is right that the 

first picture is one -- there are two aerial 

photographs I know of. And the first one in 

1943. And it shows the E Wing connected to 

the D Wing by a walkway. Okay? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: That's in `43. 

 Now -- I'm trying to reach my other 

photograph -- there's one taken later in the 

`50s, I believe, `54, I think but I'll have to 

find the picture, and by then, the connection 

had been made into the section that would 

include the teletherapy sources. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I guess what I'm 

trying to picture is with these two facilities 

connected by some sort of a walkway, did the 

people in ORINS have to go through this 

walkway into the Oak Ridge Hospital to get out 
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of their building? Did they have a separate 

entrance? Or was all of the traffic through 

this walkway? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: No. Oak Ridge, the 

ORINS or the E Wing and including the D Wing, 

which was taken over later, empty out onto a 

street -- I've forgotten its name -- so 

there's no reason for them to go the other 

direction because that would have taken them 

into this long building. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Roger, did you 

say that initially they were in the D Wing and 

then later they took over the E Wing? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: No, they started out 

in the E Wing. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: The E Wing. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Yes. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Jim? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Yes. 
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 MEMBER PRESLEY: It's Bob Presley. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Hi, Bob. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: If you'll look at 

those pictures I gave you, you can see where 

they are connected. There is a three-story 

unit and then it is connected in a shorter 

walkway to the other one-story unit that he's 

talking about there in those pictures. 

 And one picture was made oh, from 

looking at the trees, sometime late `43. And 

then the other one was made in `44. And then 

I've been able to get my hands on another 

picture that I've got to find that shows this 

other building being built. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Bob, is the 

three-story building the D Wing? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And is the onestory building the E Wing? 
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 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. That's my 

understanding. Is it, Roger? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Yes, that's right. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. I see 

it. And the walkway between the D Wing and 

the main hospital is, on your picture, Bob, is 

covered but it just looks like a covered 

walkway with windows along the side? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Right, a short 

walkway. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Right. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Now, Roger, let me 

ask you a question. This is Bob Presley, by 

the way. How are you doing? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Good. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: When they did the 

experiments on the patients and everything, 

all of that was done on the bottom floor of 
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the three-story building back underground in 

special cubicles that they had made down 

there. Is that not correct? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, I'm not sure 

that I can even follow what you're saying only 

because it depends on what time we're talking 

about. Remember the D Wing was not taken over 

until 1960 or so because it was taken over by 

ORINS after I came to Oak Ridge. So the D 

Wing, that's the three-story structure, was 

not part of ORINS until after 1960. 

 So everything else that was done 

prior to that time was done in the one-story E 

Wing. But before ORINS moved into the E Wing, 

they had constructed a two-story building on 

the we'll say the left side of the building if 

you were standing in the street looking at the 

front of the E Wing. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: That's correct. 
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 MR. CLOUTIER: So does that clear 

up what you were saying? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well, let me -- 

then I need to follow up on this. So, Roger, 

you're saying that ORINS occupied the E Wing, 

Edward Wing, first, right? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Correct. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And that's the 

one-story wing? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: One-story wing. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: And away from 

everything. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well, it's sort 

of perpendicular to the D Ring, right Bob? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: It's off 90 

degrees to D Wing. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Right. But how 

was it connected to the D Wing? 
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 MR. CLOUTIER: By means of a -- 

initially by means of an open walkway that was 

kind of covered over. If you happen to have 

that `43 picture, if you look at it, the thing 

right in front of you is the A Wing of the Oak 

Ridge Hospital. And to the far right of that 

picture, the structure that's one-story high 

with four, we'll call them vents on the top, 

that's the E Wing. And E connects to D by 

means of that walkway. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Roger, was the 

ORs -- when you were there, were the operating 

rooms and the morgue and the labs in the D 

Wing then? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: D Wing wasn't 

occupied until the `60s. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Not until the 

`60s. And what was in the D Wing? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I don't know what 
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the hospital had in the D Wing but something 

else that plays into this, Oak Ridge, when it 

got started had a population of about 70 or 

80,000 people. And after the war ended, the 

population dropped to about half. 

 And at that point, the Oak Ridge 

Hospital was abandoning wings and that's the 

reason why ORINS was able to get the E Wing. 

I don't remember what was in the D Wing 

because soon after I arrived it was turned 

over to ORAU. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. And when 

that happened, Roger, what were they doing in 

the D Wing? When you took it over or ORINS 

took it over, what was put in the D Wing? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, the first 

thing they did was to move the hospital 

patients to the D Wing. They also -- that's 

where the surgery, a new surgery was created. 
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 There were lots of laboratories that were 

established in that wing. 

 Let's see, equipment repair and 

things like that were on the bottom floor 

along with administrative people. But that's 

1960s. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I guess my next 

question is in the D Wing, was that new 

construction in the D Wing or did they 

actually just take over surgery rooms that 

were already existing in the D Wing? Or you 

may not know. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, I don't know 

for sure but I do know that the whole thing 

had to be gutted. That is everything pulled 

out of it, including the roof, in order to 

meet the standards for hospital-type building. 

 And so the first thing it was 

gutted. And I don't recall going into that 
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building until somebody was gutting, you know, 

in the business of tearing everything out. So 

I don't know if surgery was in that wing or 

not. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Hey, Jim? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Yes? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: We've got time on 

this. I can talk to -- I didn't even think 

about talking to [identifying information 

redacted]. He came in the early years. And 

then there's another children's doctor that is 

still living. If I can get my hands on his 

number, his name is [identifying information 

redacted]. 

 MS. HUGHES: This is Lara. I'd 

like to add that I already interviewed 

[identifying information redacted] for when we 

prepared the evaluation report. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Oak Ridge Hospital 

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46

and is subject to change. 

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 MEMBER PRESLEY: Okay. Did he give 

you any inclination as to where things might 

be located? 

 MS. HUGHES: No, he just said he 

was -- that he was a surgeon or pathologist at 

the Oak Ridge Hospital. And that he would 

occasionally perform services at the ORINS 

facility. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes, because he 

sewed me up when I was about six or seven 

years old two or three times. 

 MS. HUGHES: Okay. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: And that would 

have been in `51, `52. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. Any other 

questions for Roger? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: This is Sara 

Cummings. I would like to ask Roger what his 

role was when he was employed there. And had 
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a couple of questions. What year -- he was 

employed in `59 and then was it true that in 

1960, January or so, ORINS moved out of there 

and then became a part of the Associated 

Universities? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I'm having a little 

trouble hearing you. But that's probably my 

problem. But would you speak up a little? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Sara? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Yes? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: He had a little 

trouble hearing you. Can you repeat it a 

little louder? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Roger, this is Sara 

Cummings. And I was wondering what month and 

year you were employed there and what your 

role was. And it is my understanding, I 

thought in 1960 ORINS moved out of there and 

became a part of the Oak Ridge Associated 
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Universities. Is that correct? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, I'll take the 

two parts -- the last part first. ORINS was 

created as ORINS in 1946. And it stayed with 

that name until the mid-1960s when it changed 

its name to Oak Ridge Associated Universities. 

 And the principle reason for changing was 

that NASA had money -- this is my opinion -- 

but NASA, National Aeronautic and Space 

Administration, had money. And they would 

provide money to all kinds of people but they 

liked to give it to people who had names that 

looked like they were related to NASA 

programs. So that's one of the reasons they 

changed their names. 

 Now I came in 1959, I came in May I 

believe it was, I was hired from Westinghouse 

in Pittsburgh Atomic Power Group. And came to 

Oak Ridge because it looked like an 
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interesting job. 

 I intended to stay for only two 

years. And two years has now become over 50 

years. Does that fill you in? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Hey, Roger, this 

is Bob Presley. Can you tell her what you did 

at ORINS? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I'm sorry I forgot 

that was part of the question. I forgot it. 

I was hired as radiation safety officer. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Okay. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Thank you. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Roger, are you aware 

of nursing staff going from one area of the 

Oak Ridge Hospital over to ORINS and ORINS 

staff going back into the Oak Ridge Hospital 

area where patients were cared for? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: To my knowledge in 

my period of time, there was very little 
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transit between the two hospitals. The only 

time we got to see Oak Ridge Hospital doctors 

was on a Thursday night seminar that many of 

the doctors would come over to listen to the 

seminars. And they were, you know, interested 

in what was going on. 

 But other than that, I don't know 

of many, you know, cross visits. It wasn't a 

common thing. 

 And with regard to nurses, I've 

asked several people and they say ORINS always 

had its own nurses. And so I don't know of 

any time where there was a big transfer of 

nurses. 

 I did note in the report that it 

says they could be called if needed. But I 

didn't experience that. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: So how many months 

in `59 did you work there? 
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 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, I started in 

May and I continued to work until 1992. And 

I've been with ORINS all the time -- ORINS and 

ORAU. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Okay. But you were 

physically located there from May of `59 until 

1960? And then it was -- ORAU was relocated 

at that point, is that right? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I'm not quite sure I 

follow the relocated but I'll answer the 

question. When I first came to ORINS, I was 

actually located in a different building 

because that's where space was available. 

 When the D Wing became available in 

about 1960-something, and the something 

meaning `60 or `61, I was then given space in 

the medical division. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: It just seems 

appropriate it would be good to have some 
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information from nursing or from physicians on 

the movement of healthcare providers going 

from one area to the other. 

 And it's my understanding, I 

thought in like January of 1960, a lot of the 

use of the radioactive materials that were 

going on with ORINS was discontinued and 

became ORAU and they moved to another location 

away from this area. Is that correct? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: I'm not sure who the 

they are that you -- 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Well, ORINS became 

ORAU. Did they not move ORAU then to another 

location in 1960? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, they didn't -- 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: What's she's 

talking about is when moved their office down 

next to the museum and built a new building 

but their medical facilities still remained up 
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at the old hospital location. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: That is correct, 

yes. The ORAU original building and, in fact, 

the building I had my original office in, was 

the building that sits on Illinois Avenue. 

It's now occupied by Atmospheric Turbulence -- 

something or other -- Fusion Laboratory. But 

that was originally the administration 

building. 

 About 1960, and I don't know the 

date exactly, they built a new building for 

administrators on what is now called the ORINS 

campus or ORAU campus, which is up behind the 

municipal building. But the medical division 

has always been at the same location with one 

addition. Very early in the game, a building 

that was part of the University of Tennessee 

Agricultural Research Station, operated by the 

Atomic Energy Commission, that's located at 
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the old Scarboro School, and don't confuse it 

with the Scarboro Community, because it's a 

different location, ORINS occupied a small 

animal laboratory out at that location. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: That's correct. 

And I think the fellow that ran that out there 

is still living. I'm not sure. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, are you 

talking about the Scarboro -- or I mean the 

Agricultural Research Station? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. One of the 

fellows that used to run that out there I 

think is still living around Oak Ridge if I'm 

not mistaken. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Because the man who 

was originally in charge of it out there, a 

chemist interested in rare herbs, he is dead. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Right, yes. This 

fellow's name is Joseph Gray. And he worked 
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with the animals and all out there. He was in 

charge of the animals. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Okay. Did I answer 

your question? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: I just think we need 

some additional information. Before 1960, you 

know, you were employed from May through the 

end of 1959 for, you know, say seven months or 

so. 

 And it seems as though we need 

information from nursing staff and/or 

physicians who were there prior to 1960 when 

all of the information related to radioactive 

material use was in effect. And that's 

according to Lara's report, you know, that 

we've seen that most of those radioactive 

materials there were in use were from 1960 -- 

well, the end of `59 and on back. 

 And it seems as though we need some 
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additional information from someone nursingwise or physician-wise to answer the question 

as to whether staff moved from one area of Oak 

Ridge Hospital into ORINS and, you know, back 

and forth. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Sara? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Yes? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Was that you 

talking? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: I was, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: I'm finished I hope. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I think your 

point is well taken. 

 I wanted to back off a little bit 

and, LaVon, let me ask you this question or 

Larry. If we assumed that there was no crosscontamination between Oak Ridge Hospital and 

ORINS, not zero, zilch, would that change the 
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status of what we're being asked? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well, I think the 

better person to ask would be Lara herself on 

the end feasibilities defined in her report. 

I think the major end feasibilities that were 

defined were these associated solely with the 

cross contamination with the Oak Ridge 

Institute of Nuclear Studies but -- the Cancer 

Research Hospital. But Lara may recall if 

there was anything else. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well, let me 

interject here. As I recall, Lara, you could 

not find any monitoring badges from Oak Ridge 

Hospital during that time frame, right? 

 MS. HUGHES: That is correct. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And so that's the 

question I'm trying to ask. If, in fact, 

there is no monitoring information -- and 

these were AEC employees, right? 
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 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, they are 

covered employees, that's correct. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Covered 

employees, and if there is no monitoring 

information available in that cohort of people 

who worked in that hospital, and solely worked 

in that hospital and assuming there is no 

cross contamination or cross movement with 

ORINS, then would this not have to be -- would 

we not have to say yes, we can't reconstruct 

dose. We know those are the upper limits? Or 

am I wrong in that? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well, I think what 

-- and Lara can actually add to this -- I 

think the only thing we could do would be to 

look at general hospital practices at that 

time and look at any studies that were 

conducted during that period on exposures to 

x-ray technicians, to radiologists, to 
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individuals like that and try to come up with 

a model to actually do the dose 

reconstructions. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Sort of surrogate 

exposure is what you're saying. 

 DR. NETON: LaVon, this is Jim 

Neton. I joined the call a while ago. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes. 

 DR. NETON: I'm working in the 

background. I think the ER does address that 

issue. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, it does. I 

thought it did. 

 DR. NETON: It talks about a paper 

that was done. It's essentially that, a 

surrogate -- Dr. Lockey's right -- a surrogate 

analysis that could be used. 

 But if you remember in 83.14, it is 

set up such that we continue only insofar as 
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we identify what can't be done definitively 

and then we create the class. And, LaVon, 

correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 

that we completely evaluate the rest of the 

issues. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Actually this was 

an 83.13. 

 DR. NETON: Oh, it was? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, it was. 

 DR. NETON: Then we have it. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, we did. 

 DR. NETON: So -- 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: And I think Lara 

can hop in here on this, the discussion on 

those exposures. 

 MS. HUGHES: Well, we stated in the 

report that the external doses from the source 

being the radiology department, the diagnostic 

and therapeutic x-rays, we could use surrogate 
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data from other hospitals. 

 We also have an internal exposure 

component at the Oak Ridge Hospital because 

they had their own fairly small radioisotope 

lab where they did radioiodine -- they used 

radioiodine for thyroid uptake studies. 

 The only source term that we have 

to go with for that would be the information 

that is on the license that Oak Ridge Hospital 

had. We only have license information from 

1956 on although we do know that they started 

this radioisotope lab somewhere around 1953. 

 I think they had other 

radioisotopes as well. I'd have to look. 

It's actually in the report. 

 So we're not just looking at the 

external exposure potential. There's also an 

internal source term. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So, Lara, what 
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you are saying is then just looking at Oak 

Ridge alone, assuming there's no cross 

movement between the two facilities -- 

 MS. HUGHES: Well, may I add 

something? You just sent out this JAMA 

article this morning. If you look at this 

article, there is the section in there that 

talks about exposures received during surgical 

procedures. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Yes. 

 MS. HUGHES: That article was 

written in 1951. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Right. 

 MS. HUGHES: Which means that ORINS 

did not have an operating room. So if you 

look at the amount of radioactivity in these 

patients, and that was clearly cross 

contamination because these patients would 

have been in the Oak Ridge Hospital. 
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 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: No, I understand 

that. 

 MS. HUGHES: I'm not sure, you 

know, if we were going to make this 

assumption, we'd probably -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I'm not going 

there yet. I'm just -- 

 MS. HUGHES: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: What I'm trying 

to do is I'm trying to work this through my 

mind. If we could assume that the hospital is 

completely separate, it very well -- for this 

hospital we perhaps may be able to do dose 

reconstruction by using what is available and 

using surrogate models. Okay? That's sort of 

where I wanted to put that into a box. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: May I interrupt? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Then there is 

adequate documentation that at least for 
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morgue activities and for surgery activities, 

based on the article I sent out this morning 

and based on your report, that there is 

movement back and forth between the 

facilities, especially in relationship to 

certain patient care activities. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Can I say one thing 

about what I think I heard Lara say? And I 

don't envy you people because I know the 

problem you have trying to sort everything 

out. 

 But the patients did not stay in 

the Oak Ridge Hospital, as I understand it, 

because in the E Wing is where the patients 

were kept. And the reason I know that is when 

I moved in to have my office there, my office 

was in a patient's room because they had 

vacated it to move it into -- the patients 

into the D Wing. But I moved into a patient's 
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room. 

 And what was unique about that room 

was it had marble walls. And when I asked 

about it, it turns out that Dr. Brucer had 

convinced a marble supplier to provide marble 

as extra shielding for the patients' rooms. 

So that building had, you know, rooms for 

patients that had marble walls, East Tennessee 

marble to be exact. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Roger, the 

question that Lara is asking or has stated is 

not such a question but as a piece of 

information is in the 19 -- in the early 

1940s, when a person needed surgery and they 

were in the E Wing, okay, but they needed 

surgery, they would have to be taken to Oak 

Ridge Hospital for the surgery. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, keep the dates 

right because it wasn't until the 1950s that 
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the E Wing became available to -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I'm sorry, 1950s. 

 That's what I meant, 1950s. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: And at that point, 

you are correct if you change it to 1950s. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So in the 1950s, 

if somebody needed surgery, they were brought 

to Oak Ridge Hospital. And in the early 

1950s, if somebody died, the autopsy was done 

at Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: That would be my 

assumption also. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. All right. 

 Okay. 

 And now I'm trying to find fast 

forward here. So one fact is that if Oak 

Ridge was a standalone institution, we might 

be able to do dose reconstruction. But we 

have patients moving back and forth, at least 
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in the early 1950s. 

 And so the next question is besides 

patients moving back and forth and the people 

who were moving -- the orderlies, et cetera, 

moving back and forth, how much other movement 

occurred between the two facilities? Is that 

a reasonable question, Gen and Bob? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. This is Bob. 

 But now I want to make one thing straight. 

What Roger is talking about, Lara made the 

statement that the patients were in Oak Ridge 

Hospital. They were in, so to speak, Oak 

Ridge Hospital but the wing where the cancer 

patients and the experiments were done was not 

part of the physical hospital where the 

regular sick people were. 

 MS. HUGHES: I'd like to add to 

that. The statement that Bob is referring to 

I believe is in the ER. And this information 
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is based on the contracts that we located that 

existed between ORINS and the Oak Ridge 

Hospital. 

 And in the contract, it 

specifically stated that in an overflow 

situation or in a situation where a patient 

could not be cared for adequately in ORINS, a 

patient could be moved to the Oak Ridge 

Hospital given that the patient was not 

restricted because of radioactivity. 

 Now I have no proof whether or not 

this ever actually happened. I just base this 

information on the contracts that existed. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So in the 

contract it said that if ORINS was full, it 

would go to Oak Ridge Hospital? 

 MS. HUGHES: Well, it's not so much 

ORINS is full. It's -- I think it stated that 

if a patient could not be cared for 
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adequately. I'm not sure what that means. 

Maybe if the patient needed an intensive care 

unit or -- I'm not sure. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Right. Okay. 

 Well, any other comments? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Jim, this is Gen. 

 I'm not sure where we'd go with the 

information if we got more information but it 

seems if we're going to spend some more time 

and Bob is going to pursue some contacts and I 

think the physician he talked about would be a 

good one, then I'd also suggest that we try to 

look for this [identifying information 

redacted] who has been mentioned. 

 When I do a search on the internet, 

I find two [identifying information redacted] 

living in Oak Ridge. They are probably 

different. I can't tell, you know, anything 

about them. But that might be worth 
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exploring. 

 Then something I brought up the 

other day. There's another name mentioned in 

the petition and I don't know, Emily, whether 

I can say the name or not but anybody can see 

it. It's in the petition. Let me see if I 

can find that now. Well, it's in some of the 

handwriting, kind of about three-quarters of 

the way through the petition. 

 MS. HOWELL: It's probably better 

just to not use the name but if you can 

reference a page number for the Board members. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, this thing 

doesn't have page numbers that I can see. 

Well, yes, it's on I think it is page eight in 

the petition. In the handwritten part of it, 

it talks about somebody who -- it mentions the 

name and it says she was a resident of Oak 

Ridge, confirmed she was also -- I can't read 
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this -- but it appears she might have some 

information if she's still available. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Doctor -- or Gen, 

this is LaVon Rutherford. There is another 

individual who we interviewed during the Oak 

Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies SEC and 

that was a nurse from `51 to `53. And we 

didn't ask them at that time whether they, you 

know, moved back and forth. And I'm not sure 

Lara can answer this or not if we reinterviewed that person or not. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Well, since 

that's what we're really talking about is to 

try and determine the extent that people moved 

back and forth. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: May I introduce a 

different reason to worry about something? 

People from Oak Ridge National Lab Y-12 and K25 also visited the Oak Ridge Hospital. 
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 And I don't want to say that 

happened frequently but on occasion I would 

get called because someone had managed to pick 

up contamination on their feet. And they had 

ended up at the hospital for one reason or 

another. Now -- so that's another source of 

activity. 

 And the other thing back in that 

period of time was a lot of radioactive 

fallout from the nuclear weapons and so on. 

So there was fallout all over. 

 And, in fact, when the Abbott 

Laboratories went out of business, I was 

responsible for having the area monitored and 

we had to call off the monitoring not because 

the levels in the building were so high but 

because Chinese fallout had reached the area, 

the Oak Ridge area, and it raised our 

background so high that we couldn't detect the 
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low levels we were trying to detect inside the 

building. 

 So there are other sources of 

radiation that may have -- or radioactive 

materials that may have made their way into 

the hospital as opposed to focusing solely on 

the, you know, connecting -- physicallyconnected building. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Other comments? 

 (No response.) 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Thank you, Roger. 

 Dr. Ralph -- is it -- 

 MR. CLOUTIER: [identifying 

information redacted]. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: -- [identifying 

information redacted], [identifying 

information redacted], it would be -- in know 

we haven't been able -- I know, Lara, you 

haven't been able to get a hold of him but 
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maybe -- Roger, would you be willing to work 

with Lara and maybe perhaps Bob to arrange a 

time to interview [identifying information 

redacted]? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Yes. I don't know 

why he won't talk. I mean -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Sometimes seeing 

familiar faces, it helps. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Well, I've talked to 

him about it because I know him personally, 

yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Bob and Lara, do 

you think that would be a feasible thing to 

do? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes but I won't be 

able to do it until we get back from 

Brookhaven. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Oh, I understand 

that. It's not going to take place next week. 
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 But, you know, I think we just need to get a 

better handle on somebody -- and physicians 

and nurses who worked there in the `50s, 

specifically going back asking them how much 

cross activity really took place, not only for 

their own professions but do they have any 

recollection about the paramedical people, the 

custodians, the orderlies, the technicians, 

the administrative people, and all the rest of 

the support staff. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. And if I can 

do some digging, maybe I can find some more 

names and contacts that are still living 

because like Roger said, they had their own 

facilities up there in the later years, I 

know, where they took food in from the 

hospital. Now whether that food was brought 

over, you know, on trays, it went back on 

trays or whether it was brought over in 
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containers and used on the same trays that 

might have been washed in ORINS. And they 

could have done the same thing with 

silverware. And the silverware might not have 

gone back and forth. 

 We just have to see if we can't dig 

and find that. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Bob, this is LaVon 

Rutherford. I just wanted to point out that -

- I mean some of the things that we know, 

we've got documented and we've got information 

here. The `50 to `55 period, the surgeries 

that took place, and the morgue, I just -- I 

mean right now me, I'm not hearing things that 

are going to change what we've already come up 

with. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well, that's true. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: And I don't know. 

 You know, and I -- I mean we'll do whatever 
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you guys want to do but I'm just bringing the 

question here, you know, I mean how hard are 

we going to -- how much harder are we going to 

push. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: It raises a good 

question. I guess what it is coming down to, 

LaVon, is if there was -- does it mean that 

everybody worked in Oak Ridge Hospital? Does 

it mean that everybody is included in the 

cohort? Or could that be narrowed down to 

people that worked in the OR, people that 

worked in the morgue. I don't think that's 

going to be possible. But -- 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Even on top of 

that, I think that even if you tried to narrow 

it down to that level, is the Department of 

Labor going to be able to administer it? And 

then are you going to be able to -- because 

you're going to get down to the situation 
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where you are going to try to define 

individuals specifically -- or occupations 

specifically. 

 And we have seen in the past from 

an SEC perspective is if -- the DOL cannot 

administer that because of the fact that names 

or different job titles change over time. And 

it makes it very difficult for them to 

administer. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Ted? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Who is that? 

Roger? 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Yes. This is Roger, 

I'm sorry. If you don't need me any more 

because you are now down to nitty gritty, I 

will get off the phone. I can't say I'm 

envious of the task you have but I'm sure glad 

I don't have it. So if you don't need me, 

I'll get off the phone. 
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 MEMBER PRESLEY: Roger, thank you 

very much. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Thank you, Roger. 

 MR. CLOUTIER: Thanks. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well, let's just 

talk to the Working Group and see where we 

stand on this. 

 Gen? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Well, I guess one 

of my questions is, and I think LaVon is going 

in that direction, do we have any other site 

like this? Do we have any precedence? Either 

something that we've dealt with in the past or 

foresee in the future? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well, if you 

remember back -- I'll even start with 

Mallinckrodt. When we started with 

Mallinckrodt class definition, we started out 

with all -- or I think it was Mallinckrodt or 
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was it Y-12 -- Y-12 early years -- I'm getting 

my -- yes, Y-12 early years, we started out 

with all employees that worked in the uranium 

enrichment -- I think Uranium Division or 

whatever. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: The Calutron 

Division. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well, yes, we 

started out with -- yes, uranium, it was a 

specific division of employees. And what we 

found out was that the Department of Labor 

could not administer that class as written. 

We were getting cases sent back to us for not 

being in the SEC for individuals who we 

clearly felt should have ended up in the SEC. 

 Ultimately we ended up doing an 

83.14 to add or to change that class 

definition to all employees. And I think that 

what we've seen from that point and through 
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discussions with Department of Labor, that 

identifying job titles would be very hard to 

administer because job titles change over 

time, job, you know, what some person may call 

a -- for example, may call pipefitter today 

may have been a steamfitter 30 years ago, you 

know. 

 And those names and the 

descriptions change and so identifying job 

titles is difficult to administer for them. 

At least this is what we've seen in the past. 

 I don't want to put anything in the 

Department of Labor. 

 So that -- ultimately after that 

point, we shifted from that to job locations. 

 Now in this situation, if you put job 

locations down as a morgue or, you know, 

operating room and so on, again, that's going 

to be very difficult for them to separate 
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individuals out as well because then you're 

going to say well, did the maintenance staff 

go into the operating room at the Oak Ridge 

Hospital? Should they be included as well? 

Because I'm sure that the maintenance staff 

for Oak Ridge Hospital had to go in there. 

Did the orderlies have to go in there? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: LaVon, it's Bob 

Presley. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: If you got a nurse 

that works in pediatrics -- 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: -- for 30 years -- 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: She's never even 

come close to working over in ORINS. Is that 

fair? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well, I totally 
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understand what you're saying, Bob. I really 

do. Do I think that everyone that worked at 

Oak Ridge Hospital, you know, got the same 

exposure -- had the same exposure potential as 

the people that worked at the Oak Ridge 

Institute of Nuclear Studies? No, I don't. 

 But administering this and 

separating people out from a dose 

reconstruction feasibility, it's very 

difficult. 

 DR. NETON: LaVon, this is Jim 

Neton. I'd like to say a couple of things if 

I could. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Sure. 

 DR. NETON: One is I think we have 

to remember that on average, I'm not sure if 

this still holds, but on average, the last 

time I looked about 50 percent of our 

claimants were survivors, not the actual 
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workers. 

 And so then you put a real burden 

on the survivors to try to, you know, a lot of 

them might not even have known what their 

parent or spouse, you know, their real 

official job title was or that sort of thing. 

 So it sort of creates inequities from that 

situation. 

 Secondly, I think the precedent was 

set a long time ago at Bethlehem Steel for 

just such a scenario where everyone that 

worked at Bethlehem Steel is covered even 

though we knew that probably no more than a 

few dozen people ever worked in the ten-inch 

bar mill with radioactive material. 

 So there are precedents for 

covering a large population where we can't 

identify job titles or we don't believe the 

survivors could identify them either. 
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 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Gen? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Well, I think Jim 

just added to the information. I think out of 

curiosity, I'd like to see some more 

information procured. But I don't know if it 

is going to get us anywhere. And probably in 

fairness, if we don't think we're going to 

make any progress, then we ought to wrap it 

up. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Gen, I feel the 

same way you do but is Larry still there? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: I am online. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Larry, why don't 

you tell us about the law. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: The law? In the 

context of this particular petition? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes, sir. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Wait a minute, 

Larry, I want to get my notes out and take 
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notes on this. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: First of all, I'm not 

a lawyer. Maybe Emily could do us a better 

service here overall but what do you 

specifically want me to opine about, Mr. 

Presley? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Okay. What we're 

doing may be a total effort in futility since 

the way that the law is written if we can't do 

-- if we don't come up with dose 

reconstruction or stuff like that, then it's 

got to be given. Is that not correct? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: The law and our 

regulation prescribed for situations where a 

dose cannot be reconstructed with sufficient 

accuracy, and in our regulation we defined 

that as being our ability to provide a 

bounding dose or a maximum level dose or a 

more precise dose than a maximum level, then a 
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class would be added. 

 A class can only be added for a 

facility that is designated as a covered 

facility. It cannot go across facilities. 

 Is that helpful? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: That's helpful. 

Then this is a covered facility? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: It is a covered 

facility. It is a standalone situation as a 

facility though yes what happened in the 

hospital that perhaps contributed to -- or 

what happened in ORINS that perhaps migrated 

or environmentally found its way into the 

hospital situation becomes a problem in the 

hospital situation. Is that clear? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: That's clear. 

Then I don't think that us spending any more 

time and money is going to help the situation 

because I don't think we can prove anything 
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one way or the other. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I -- Jim Lockey -

- I guess I concur with that. I do concur 

with that. I'm curious to hear what 

[identifying information redacted] would have 

to say about his recollection but I don't 

think it is necessarily going to change 

anything because I think there is going to be 

enough unknowns that it won't change anything. 

 But I think it would be interesting 

to know his recollection of what went on back 

in the mid-1950s. But I'm not sure it's worth 

holding everything up. 

 So I'm ready for a motion. Who 

wants to make it? Any other comments? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Can I ask a 

question. This is Sara Cummings. 

 I have a question. Has any one 

individual previously been approved for the 
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cohort where they were an employee of the Oak 

Ridge Hospital? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: It sounds like 

we're waiting for somebody to answer. This is 

LaVon Rutherford. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: One of you all 

will have to answer that. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: I do not -- you 

know, from my knowledge, I do not know. I 

know there was -- when I originally worked on 

the Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies, 

there were two or three individuals, or it may 

have been four individuals who I felt were 

identified as Oak Ridge Hospital that should 

have been identified as Oak Ridge Institute of 

Nuclear Studies employees. 

 But I do not know if anyone, you 

know, if -- let's put it this way, if 

Department of Labor kept their employment at 
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accuracy at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only 

90

and is subject to change. 

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Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

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The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Oak Ridge Hospital, they would not have 

covered them under the SEC. Does that make -- 

do you understand what I'm saying? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Repeat that again. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay. If the 

Department of Labor came down with the 

determination that an individual worked at Oak 

Ridge Hospital and not Oak Ridge Institute of 

Nuclear Studies, then they would not have 

covered them under the Oak Ridge Institute of 

Nuclear Studies SEC. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Let me answer the 

question -- this is Larry Elliott -- a little 

bit more -- beyond what was LaVon was able to. 

 I'm looking at our database statistically 

looking for those claims that had employment 

at Oak Ridge Hospital. There's only two of 

which that have been found to be -- that have 

a final decision on them. And both of those 
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accuracy at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only 

91

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Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

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reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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had time at Oak Ridge Hospital but they had 

time at several other covered facilities, 

several of which have a class associated. 

 So without getting into the details 

of each of the two claims, I can't tell what 

really triggered the compensation decision for 

those two claims but I can tell you it wasn't 

because of Oak Ridge Hospital situation. 

 Does that answer your question? 

Only two claims that have Oak Ridge Hospital 

employment have been compensated -- have been 

given a decision by DOL to be compensated. 

Those are not based upon the employment 

specifically at Oak Ridge Hospital. They are 

based upon employment at other facilities. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: What you're saying 

then, Larry, is that nurse or whoever that 

might have been, that employee could have been 

employed at Oak Ridge Hospital and then gone 
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92

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Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

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reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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to Y-12 or K-25 or Hornell or some other 

covered facility. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: That's correct. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. So 

anybody else have any more comments? 

 (No response.) 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: LaVon or maybe it 

was Jim -- last time we spoke, the definition 

of the cohort was going to be changed, 

correct? 

 DR. NETON: Yes, I think LaVon was 

going to take care of that. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: LaVon, can you 

send me that -- the new definition by email? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes. Either -- I 

think Lara is the one that's got it so -- 

 MS. HUGHES: Yes, I can do it. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Oak Ridge Hospital 

Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and 

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93

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Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

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reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Lara, because 

I'll need that. And then what I hear us, the 

Working Group, saying is that the new 

definition of who is going to be in accord, 

we're going to pretty much -- we're going to 

accept what we've been provided about -- our 

recommendation is that we do grant this as a 

special exposure cohort. Anybody have any 

comments on that statement? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: I don't like it 

but I am going to have to vote for it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well, the 

question is that we don't really think that 

there is really life endangerment but that's 

not something that we can really work with 

because we can't establish the upper limits, 

right? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: I think you have 

correctly characterized the situation, Dr. 
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Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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Lockey. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That must be Dr. 

Elliott. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, it's Mr. 

Elliott. And yes, I would like to speak to 

this issue. 

 On behalf of the 12 claimants or 12 

claims that have been completed and denied but 

yet have had time, work time, employment time 

at Oak Ridge Hospital, I don't know if some of 

these will find their way to become eligible 

under this class definition if you vote in 

favor of it. And would find themselves in a 

compensable status because of that. I 

appreciate your taking this action on their 

behalf. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. So 

we're going to -- not necessarily a life 

endangered situation but because we cannot 
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Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and 

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95

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Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

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reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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calculate dose, we don't -- we can't calculate 

the upper limit. And, therefore, as a Working 

Group, we're supportive of the granting of the 

SEC. 

 I'll make that as a motion. A 

second? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: I'll second it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All in favor? 

 (Chorus of ayes.) 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. I think 

we're done unless there are any other 

comments. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: I appreciate 

everybody's effort. We'll see you all in New 

York. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Ted, are we okay 

with this? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, I think we are. I 

mean the only thing is everybody said -- I 
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96

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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think the transcript, it's hard to reflect -- 

I think you just need a statement that it was 

unanimous because it's hard to reflect that in 

the transcript given that there were just a 

number of ayes. And I don't think the Court 

Reporter -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I think it was 

unanimous. John Poston wasn't on the -- 

wasn't available to vote. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: You could do roll 

call if you wanted. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. Let's 

do roll call. 

 Gen? 

 MR. KATZ: Jim, why don't you do 

that just as a formality. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Gen? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Aye. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Robert? 
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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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 MEMBER PRESLEY: Aye. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Phil? 

 (No response.) 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I think he hung 

up. Phil? 

 (No response.) 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Ted? Ted? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Can you -- Jim 

Lockey, I say aye. Can you talk to -- maybe 

get a verbal from Phil. I think he hung up. 

 MR. KATZ: Right. Let me send him 

an email and get him to respond by email. 

That will be fine. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That would be 

great. 

 All right. We'll present this next 

week. 

 Thank you everybody for your time 
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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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and consideration. 

 And Ted or somebody, can somebody 

send Roger a thank you note? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, certainly, I'll be 

happy to do that. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That would be 

nice. All right, I appreciate that. 

 Take care everybody. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: See you all next 

week. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: See you soon. 

 MR. KATZ: Good bye. Thank you 

everybody. 

 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter was concluded at 3:30 p.m.) 
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and is subject to change. 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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