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 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

 DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

 CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY

 AND HEALTH

 ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION

 AND WORKER HEALTH

 + + + + +

 BOARD SECURITY PLAN DEVELOPMENT WORK GROUP

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY, APRIL 21, 2009

 + + + + +

 The workgroup convened in the

Zurich Room of the Cincinnati Airport Marriot,

Hebron, Kentucky at 9:30 a.m., Bradley P.

Clawson, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

BRADLEY P. CLAWSON, Chairman

JOSIE M. BEACH, Member

ROBERT W. PRESLEY, Member

THEODORE M. KATZ, Acting Designated Federal

 Official
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IDENTIFIED PARTICIPANTS:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

GRADY CALHOUN, NIOSH ORAU*

MARK ROLFES, NIOSH ORAU*

LARRY ELLIOTT, NIOSH ORAU

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

JOE FITZGERALD, SC&A

ARJUN MAKHIJANI, SC&A

KATHY ROBERTSON-DEMERS, SC&A*

NANCY JOHNSON SC&A*

STEVE OSTROW, SC&A*

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor*

ROY LLOYD, HHS*

EMILY HOWELL, HHS

TERRIE BARRIE, ANWAG*

*Participating via telephone
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 

2 9:30 a.m.

3 MR. KATZ: Good morning. This is

4 the Board of Security Plan Development Work

5 Group of the Advisory Board on Radiation

6 Worker Health. This is the initial and

7 possibly the only meeting of this working

8 group, which will be developing Board

9 procedures for compliance with the DOE

10 security plan for access to records and for

11 review of documents, for classification review

12 of documents by DOE.

13 First off, let's just check on the

14 phone line. Can you hear us, somebody -- on

15 the phone line?

16 MS. JOHNSON: Yes, we can hear you.

17 MR. KATZ: All right, great. I can

18 hear you. Let's do roll call first. We'll

19 start with the Board members in the room.

20 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Brad Clawson,

21 working group chair. 

22 MEMBER BEACH: Josie Beach, member.
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1 MEMBER PRESLEY: Robert Presley,

2 member.

3 MR. KATZ: And on the phone line,

4 do we have any Board members? Okay, I think

5 we're expecting -- Phil Schofield is on this

6 working group to call in shortly. And then for

7 the NIOSH ORAU team in the room?

8 MR. CALHOUN: Grady Calhoun.

9 MR. KATZ: And on the line, do we

10 have anyone from NIOSH ORAU team?

11 MR. ROLFES: Mark Rolfes.

12 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Mark. I think

13 we're expecting Larry Elliot to join us later

14 here in the room later today. And then now,

15 for SC&A, in the room?

16 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Joe Fitzgerald,

18 SC&A.

19 DR. MAKHIJANI: Arjun Makhijani,

20 SC&A.

21 MR. KATZ: And on the line, do we

22 have anyone from SC&A?
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1 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes. Kathy

2 Robertson-Demers, SC&A.

3 MR. KATZ: Hi, Kathy.

4 MS. JOHNSON: Nancy Johnson, SC&A.

5 MR. OSTROW: Steve Ostrow, SC&A.

6 MR. KATZ: Okay, and was there a

7 fourth?

8 Kathy, Steve, Nancy -- was there a

9 fourth from SC&A? Okay.

10 And then, do we have any federal

11 employees on the line? There are none in the

12 room at this point, other federal employees.

13 MR. LLOYD: Roy Lloyd, HHS.

14 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Roy.

15 Okay, I think we're expecting

16 Emily Howell to join us in the room. We'll

17 make note when she comes too. Are there any

18 members of the public on the line who want to

19 identify themselves?

20 MS. BARRIE: This is Terrie Barrie

21 with ANWAG.

22 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Terrie.
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1 MS. BARRIE: Good morning.

2 MR. KATZ: That does it for roll

3 call. Let me remind -- I can hear someone

4 breathing on the line. Let me remind everyone

5 on the line to please mute your phones except

6 when you have to speak. If you don't have a

7 mute button, *6 will work, *6.

8 If you disconnect -- if you need

9 to stop listening for awhile, disconnect.

10 Please don't use your hold button. Just hang

11 up and call back in because the hold will

12 disrupt the line.

13 MS. ADAMS: Ted, it's Nancy Adams,

14 NIOSH contractor.

15 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Nancy.

16 Welcome. And then, Brad, it's -- I'll turn it

17 over to you.

18 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Well, first of

19 all, we'll kind of go into a little bit of

20 background. Last year, NIOSH developed some

21 procedures for data retrieval and for dealing

22 with classified issues for the Department of
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1 Energy and so forth.

2 Further aboard, they felt that it

3 influences sometimes the Board's independence,

4 so we were asked to be able to sit down and

5 write our own procedures for the Board to be

6 able to try to maintain that independence that

7 we have required to be able to do this

8 process, which, with the help of SC&A, we've

9 sat down and basically mirror-imaged what

10 NIOSH's procedures have been, but with just

11 slight changes to them in the data retrieval

12 and so forth. That's what started this.

13 We've had one phone call since

14 then to discuss what we were going to go over

15 and so forth.

16 Since that time, Joe Fitzgerald

17 has helped us with putting together two

18 procedures to be able to do this. They've been

19 sent out to the Board members, but that's

20 about it until we get done with this.

21 I've got some here. I guess I'll

22 turn it kind of over to Joe so that he kind of
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1 knows -- he went through the steps of where

2 we're at into this and put some very good

3 explanations at the bottom of the page of what

4 he's doing and why he did that.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Does everyone have

6 a reference?

7 MEMBER PRESLEY: I've got this one.

8 MR. KATZ: Are these what were

9 distributed to us?

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. This is it.

11 MEMBER BEACH: I've got two right

12 here that I brought. I don't know if you need

13 --

14 MR. CALHOUN: Thank you.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: For

16 clarification's sake -- all right, this is Joe

17 Fitzgerald. For clarification's sake, what

18 we're talking about is a draft that's dated

19 March 9. It's data access interview

20 procedures. It's what we would call the

21 Board's equivalent to PROC-010, which was the

22 data access interview procedures that NIOSH
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1 issued January 23, 2009.

2 In support of the Board, what we

3 did essentially was to start with the PROC-010

4 procedure and just review what would be the

5 appropriate corresponding procedure for the

6 Board in support of the work group.

7 So what I want to do -- unless

8 there's any questions. Anyone have any

9 questions about the background of this thing?

10 What I want to do is just sort of walk through

11 the draft that the work group generated and

12 compare it as we go along to some extent with

13 the original PROC-010.

14 The intent was not to re-invent

15 the wheel in this case. I think there was no

16 argument that the procedures that were listed

17 in PROC-010 were certainly appropriate in a

18 lot of cases for the data access of the sites.

19 What we were concerned about, from

20 the standpoint of the workgroup, was the

21 independence of the Board, the Board's

22 function within that procedure. So we focused
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1 on that primarily.

2 I'm going to walk through this.

3 For the benefit of the folks on the phone, I'm

4 going to be probably a little bit more

5 explicit than I would be if everybody was just

6 simply looking over the paper here, so you can

7 follow what we're doing.

8 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Joe, one thing

9 that I would like to bring up is that during

10 this process, when this was sent out to the

11 Board and so forth, we asked for input into

12 the procedure and so forth, and we did get two

13 responses back. One was from Jim Melius, which

14 I have a copy of his request and some

15 punctuation errors from Dr. Ziemer.

16 But what we wanted to do is start

17 out with the basic procedure that we have. We

18 wanted to do -- in public -- show what the

19 changes were going to be that Dr. Melius

20 wanted and have this on the record, so this

21 will kind of come forth a little bit later.

22 I wanted to let everybody know
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1 that it had been out to the Board, that we had

2 requested comments, and we've only received --

3 any issues was with Dr. Melius.

4 MR. KATZ: Just to note, Emily

5 Howell has joined us from HHS general counsel.

6 Also, just to note that this is currently a

7 draft we're discussing that SC&A has drafted.

8 The working group has not yet worked on this

9 draft.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: They have

11 commented on it.

12 MR. KATZ: Yes.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Let me just

14 begin with the purpose. Again, this is the

15 March 9 draft of data access interview

16 procedures draft of the working group.

17 What we wanted to focus in on the

18 purpose was to clearly state that it was the

19 procedure for the advisory Board, in terms of

20 its functions, statutory function, to

21 implement the sites in terms of what

22 information we would collect and how we would
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1 collect it.

2 So this distinguishes, I think,

3 from the original NIOSH procedure 10, where it

4 was an overarching procedure that covered not

5 only NIOSH and its contractors, but the Board

6 and the Board's technical support contractors.

7 So this applies exclusively to the Board and

8 to the Board's technical support contractor.

9 What we say in the purpose section

10 is this procedure corresponds to and is

11 consistent with the objectives and tenets of

12 the NIOSH procedures contained in OCAS PROC13 010, which is the data access interview

14 procedures and PROC-011, which is the

15 classification review procedures.

16 So I think the intent there was to

17 indicate that while we were trying to

18 emphasize the Board's unique responsibilities

19 and role and how technical support contractors

20 would support that role, we were, in fact,

21 trying to make this as consistent with PROC22 010 as possible just to assure a coherent
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1 uniform approach on the DOE site. I think

2 that's what DOE would want to see. I think

3 that's sufficient as well.

4 Actually, in practice, I think

5 things have been going reasonably well in

6 terms of the coordination, so the intent here

7 was to stipulate how the Board and its

8 technical support contractor would function

9 independently, but to point to how that would

10 be consistent with PROC-010.

11 This procedure differs in some

12 respects. It does not get into, necessarily,

13 all the steps. For example, with classified

14 information, and we can talk about that a

15 little later. It does point to the DOE

16 security plan. It does point to PROC-011. It

17 does not repeat a number of those steps. I

18 think there were some sections in the PROC-010

19 that, in fact, did that. So to some extent,

20 there is some modification in that area.

21 In addition to data access, it

22 also gets into the steps to conduct interviews
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1 at the sites -- it says on-site as well as

2 off-site -- and how the information collected

3 from that interview would be handled. So

4 again, that's pretty consistent with what I

5 think was in the original PROC-010. In terms

6 of scope --

7 MR. KATZ: Joe, before we go, there

8 is what seems like a substantial difference

9 under your purpose. I don't know if we want to

10 go through these piece by piece --

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Would that be

12 helpful?

13 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: That would be

14 fine. MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

15 MR. KATZ: But under purpose, you

16 have sort of broken out that it's -- the steps

17 in this procedure are only recommended for

18 data requests for all of the DOE and AWE

19 sites. But that they're required only for

20 certain sites that you list under appendix A,

21 named applicable weapons and former weapons

22 facilities, which is a real deviation, I
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1 think, from the OCAS procedure, which requires

2 this procedure for all sites without any

3 qualification.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

5 MR. KATZ: Maybe you could discuss

6 that.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think that

8 was something that was not intended, so if the

9 wording is recommended -- this should be

10 required for the DOE sites.

11 MR. KATZ: Does everybody follow

12 where I'm leading here? It's in the purpose,

13 the second paragraph. It begins the steps

14 outlined in this procedure are recommended for

15 data requests for certain sites that are

16 listed in appendix A, but that they're only

17 required -- they're recommended for certain

18 sites, but they're only required for the sites

19 in appendix A.

20 DR. MAKHIJANI: Joe, it seems to me

21 that in appendix A, you were listing all the

22 DOE sites that you were recommending for AWE.
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1 Is that --?

2 MR. FITZGERALD: No. Appendix A is

3 a list that was derived -- I believe it was

4 for PROC-011.

5 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: These are the

6 ones that have security issues?

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

8 MR. KATZ: It's applicable weapons

9 and former weapons facilities. It's the

10 Lawrence Livermore -- there may be about 15 of

11 them, major sites.

12 MR. CALHOUN: I'm not sure that

13 list is even necessary because they won't see

14 them all.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes, I was just going

16 to say that.

17 MR. CALHOUN: Not every one.

18 DR. MAURO: Is there any intent or

19 discussion on making distinctions between

20 these different kinds of sites?

21 MR. CALHOUN: That's how we started

22 and then DOE says no. I mean, just for an
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1 example, we've all heard of the Residual

2 Contamination Report, mostly AWE facilities --

3 they want to see that?

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, I don't see

5 any issue with making that required and apply

6 to all sites.

7 MEMBER BEACH: So you're just

8 saying slash out the recommended and --

9 MR. FITZGERALD: We don't have to

10 wordsmith it here. I would say required for

11 all sites and no list. I agree with Grady. I

12 think we kind of departed from being specific

13 unless -- I think that was an original

14 construct that the community was considering

15 back in the early fall last year, but I think

16 they've kind of diverged from that and want to

17 see everything now.

18 MR. KATZ: Brad, could I raise just

19 a procedural question?

20 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Sure.

21 MR. KATZ: Just in this example

22 that Joe noted not to do copy-editing here. Is
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1 it fine with you -- throughout the document I

2 would suggest, it's very hard to do copy3 editing in real time, but if we just indicate

4 where there are issues and the substance of

5 the issue, could we then just provide comments

6 to SC&A and the working group and the working

7 group members, you all. Those copy edits then

8 can be done?

9 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Yes, that will

10 be fine, but I thought this was kind of what

11 this was for so we could go through this step

12 by step.

13 MR. KATZ: I'm agreeing with that

14 totally. I'm just saying actual copy-editing,

15 writing it out as it -- to speak -- is

16 difficult to do.

17 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: We'll have to

18 sit down afterwards and get it exact.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Just to clarify,

20 you're saying to submit sort of more formally

21 after the meeting?

22 MR. KATZ: Exactly.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: That's fine.

2 MR. KATZ: Just so that we don't

3 spend a lot of time trying to get the words

4 exactly right.

5 DR. MAURO: Before we move on with

6 this, the fact that we're discussing --

7 distinctions may or may not emerge from

8 handling highly secure sites to just, let's

9 say, not such secure DOE sites, then the

10 different categories of AWE facilities --

11 there's a continuum here of interest. I

12 haven't been privy to lots of the discussions

13 related to when there may be treat-handling of

14 those interviews, data capture, or on the

15 back-end, review of work products.

16 In my mind, I guess one of the

17 things I'd like to hear as we move through all

18 this processes, is where distinctions are made

19 where we may get a little relief -- because I

20 have been living in the trenches with the

21 procedures, as many of us have, and I know

22 that sometimes that can be burdensome.
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1 On face value, some of them seem

2 to be burdening the system and perhaps,

3 sometimes it doesn't need to be burdened. But

4 sometimes you have no choice and I understand

5 that, and so as we move through this, those

6 places where distinctions are made, where

7 maybe some relief is granted not only to us

8 but also to OCAS, I'd like to hear a little

9 bit more about that and make sure if there is

10 room for some relief that we capture that

11 language in our procedures.

12 MS. HOWELL: Ted, Nancy has said

13 they're having no sound.

14 MR. KATZ: Oh no, there's no line,

15 as a matter of fact. That's what that beeping

16 was.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: I thought somebody

18 was coming in or something.

19 MR. KATZ: So let's break for a

20 second and figure out what happened with the

21 line.

22 (Whereupon, the above-entitled
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1 matter went off the record at 9:48 a.m. and

2 resumed at 9:51 a.m.)

3 MR. FITZGERALD: This is Joe

4 Fitzgerald again. I hope everybody can hear

5 me. Quick recap -- I was going through the

6 purpose section, which is section 1 of the

7 proposed -- or I should say the strawman

8 version of the data access and interview

9 procedures for the Board.

10 I think a comment was raised when

11 we got to the applicability of this procedure

12 to the DOE sites. We had recommended with a

13 list of DOE National Security sites, which I

14 think was rightfully pointed out that it's an

15 outmoded construct. It was something that was

16 a framework that we looked at, probably in

17 early fall last year and DOE is looking at all

18 documents coming from all their sites,

19 including AWE sites.

20 So what was commented on was the

21 need to reword that to indicate that this

22 procedure is required for all DOE, including
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1 AWE sites. I think it was Grady's comment that

2 frankly, on that basis, the list of facilities

3 could be struck as well, which I agree with

4 because it is just not relevant at this point

5 given what the actual practice is in terms or

6 reviews at DOE sites.

7 So that's pretty much what we had

8 covered before the interruption and that's

9 where we are. We're in section 2.0, which is

10 scope.

11 MR. KATZ: Wait. Hold on one

12 second. Can someone on the phone let me know -

13 - can you still hear us?

14 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

15 MR. KATZ: Okay, okay. Thank you

16 very much.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, we are

18 moving on. That was section 1, in terms of

19 purpose. We're going to section 2, which is

20 the scope of the procedure.

21 The difference there is simply the

22 scope in the, I think, the original NIOSH
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1 procedure was to obviously cover NIOSH's

2 contractors and the Board and its technical

3 safety, technical support contractors under

4 one umbrella. This particular scope applies to

5 the Board and its technical support contractor

6 alone. That's the difference in the scope.

7 References -- we are referencing

8 both PROC-010 and PROC-011, the NIOSH data

9 access interview procedures, the DOE

10 classification review of documents procedure,

11 the Title 42, part 82, Title 43, part 83,

12 which are the two key NIOSH reconstruction

13 regulations.

14 DR. MAURO: Joe, I think it is 42.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry. Did I

16 say 42?

17 DR. MAURO: This is a typo.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: It's a typo? Okay.

19 We're passing typos as we go too. Again, this

20 is the strawman, so we are probably going to

21 do some editing as we go.

22 And the DOE security plan for the
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1 EEOICPA program, which was issued on January

2 23, 2009 by memorandum from DOE.

3 MEMBER PRESLEY: Before we go on.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes?

5 MEMBER PRESLEY: Do you not need to

6 reference the Atomic Energy Act of 1954

7 because that's what this is all about?

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think we

9 wanted to -- again, NIOSH reference three

10 documents. We're referencing which we thought

11 were the most direct documents that bore on

12 this one. We kind of cut it off at the five or

13 six.

14 I mean, clearly, there might be a

15 lot more than this, but I think these are the

16 five or six. But that's open -- I guess

17 whatever you want to do.

18 MS. HOWELL: I was just going to

19 say that I'm pretty sure that 10 CFR 1017, the

20 DOE UCNI regulation incorporates that and some

21 other laws by reference.

22 MR. KATZ: Okay.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: I mean, if there's

2 anything that --

3 MR. KATZ: And that reference is in

4 the OCAS document too.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: We actually added

6 a few more from OCAS, but understandably, we

7 listed two of the OCAS procedures, so clearly

8 that would have been listed, but we're here,

9 so --

10 MR. KATZ: On references, I just

11 suggest -- I mean, OCAS -- the PR-011, which

12 has to do with review of classified documents

13 and so on, that's really a separate document

14 now with you. It wasn't really ever covered in

15 this document, so it probably can come out of

16 this as a reference.

17 It's not actually discussed in

18 this procedure except for in the front end

19 where it promises that it will be covered but

20 it's not covered, so you could just remove

21 that.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Or maybe the
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1 question is whether it should be cited when we

2 get to the issue of classification or not.

3 We can go to the DOE security

4 policy or plan as a reference in the back as

5 well as PROC-011. I'm not sure.

6 MR. KATZ: So just while I'm

7 explaining this, you have now a comparable

8 PROC-011 to the OCAS procedure, whereas I

9 think when you started writing this document,

10 you were thinking about covering PROC-011 and

11 this and that, but you never did.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, I see what

13 you mean. I see what you mean, yes.

14 MR. KATZ: It's not in here.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, okay.

16 Certainly, the notion was that there wasn't

17 going to be an equivalent document to PROC18 011, but that has since been developed so this

19 would come out.

20 MR. KATZ: Exactly.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: I got you.

22 DR. MAURO: Joe, I've got another
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1 question. I notice that there is an OCAS

2 policy 1 called handling and controlled

3 unclassified information.

4 I've been not quite sure of the

5 distinction between -- where that policy fits

6 in with 10 and 11. There's distinctions that

7 are between policy and the PRs.

8 MR. CALHOUN: That policy was in a

9 higher level document that we wrote to comply

10 with the DOE security plan. We actually had

11 that document reviewed by DOE and then PROC12 010 and 011 are kind of implementing

13 procedures for the policy.

14 DR. MAURO: Okay, so this is

15 hierarchy as here and though you've crossed to

16 make reference to this, it's captured by the

17 lower tier documents? Okay, thank you.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: You are saying

19 that it should not be listed?

20 DR. MAURO: That's what I'm

21 hearing, yes.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I don't know
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1 if there's a particular presumption on these

2 references, but certainly we can play with

3 that a little bit.

4 Again, a little bit more to the

5 meat of the procedure, getting into the

6 responsibilities. We spent some time,

7 obviously given the length of the treatment --

8 a couple pages worth on the responsibilities

9 just trying to clarify -- again, we haven't

10 had a -- I don't think -- a Board procedure

11 quite like this, so this is kind of cutting a

12 new cloth as far as who does what to whom.

13 So to some extent, this truly is a

14 strawman that the work group would have to

15 consider as far as what makes sense and what

16 options are available. We chose one path just

17 to have, again, a strawman of how it might be

18 able to work.

19 Now, just for the benefit of the

20 folks on the phone, what we're trying to

21 contrast this with is in PROC-010, which is

22 the NIOSH data access procedures. It's a
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1 system whereby we have NIOSH site points of

2 contact that the Board and its technical

3 support contractor would have to coordinate

4 with, work through, in terms of interactions

5 with DOE.

6 What we have in terms of

7 responsibilities for the Board -- in this

8 Board document is that the Chairman -- in this

9 case, Paul Ziemer -- would appoint POCs for

10 the various sites and presumably, those POCs

11 for sites that have work groups would be the

12 work group chairs. But nonetheless, those that

13 would be sort of the equivalent of what is in

14 PROC-010 is NIOSH POCs for the sites.

15 Getting into some of the details

16 of what might be an approach for the Advisory

17 Board, POC would be responsible for the

18 implementation of this procedure at the site.

19 Advisory Board POC may delegate all or part of

20 his functions to the technical support

21 contractor doing work at that particular

22 site. Now, the reason this
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1 framework is laid out because essentially

2 that's the MO or the modus operandi for how we

3 function at the DOE sites right now. We have

4 an individual or individuals that work with

5 DOE, identify information, make arrangements

6 for documents.

7 They keep the Board work group

8 chair informed of what's going on, status-wise

9 and whatnot. They coordinate with the NIOSH

10 POC. They coordinate with the DOE site POC. If

11 necessary, they go back and certainly do the

12 same with the headquarters POC. So that's kind

13 of the status-quo.

14 Now, let me make it very clear.

15 We're following the issued PROC-010, which

16 requires a lot of those communications to be

17 done through the NIOSH POC, certainly in he

18 beginning in particular, but through different

19 steps as prescribed by PROC-010.

20 This would provide certainly a

21 similar system, but that would be done through

22 the Advisory Board POC or as it is done now,
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1 through SC&A, if in fact, the work group chair

2 looks to SC&A to do that.

3 We have a couple things in here

4 that I want to just touch on. The chairman of

5 the Advisory Board would certainly provide the

6 DOE with the pertinent information on who's

7 who. Certainly, one of the challenges we have

8 is that a lot of times the site may not know

9 who we are and what function we're playing.

10 So to some extent, this helps in

11 terms of identifying people, identifying what

12 contracts we're operating under and whatnot.

13 It's sort of a station identification.

14 From there, we would coordinate

15 first time visits. This would still, in fact,

16 be very carefully coordinated with NIOSH. A

17 lot of times we're at the site at the same

18 time. From the DOE's standpoint, there's a

19 real advantage to making sure that they're not

20 getting inundated. So in terms of site visits,

21 in terms of document requests, that would

22 remain to be coordinated.
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1 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry, Joe. You

2 left the first item under responsibilities on

3 the chairman --

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I am under

5 the Advisory Board point of contact. I think

6 the one item we had for the chair was to, in

7 fact, designate who the site POCs would be.

8 DR. MAURO: One of the things you

9 said that struck me that is very important is

10 that we know the trigger is for -- it says,

11 okay, we want an SEC review --

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Or a site.

13 DR. MAURO: Some trigger, a

14 trigger. Now, at that point, that means that

15 there are procedures -- we, of course, SC&A,

16 have the Board approved procedures to, in

17 effect, implement. In fact, we trigger a

18 procedure that we already have in place and

19 has been approved.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, right.

21 DR. MAURO: What you had mentioned

22 earlier was something that I hadn't thought
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1 about. That is, once that trigger is pulled,

2 someone needs to inform DOE that this has

3 occurred.

4 Now, what I heard you say was that

5 someone is the chairman of the Advisory Board.

6 Is that right?

7 MR. FITZGERALD: No. No, what I

8 think -- on an annual basis is what we're

9 indicating here. DOE headquarters --

10 basically, Gina's office -- just simply wants

11 to know who is going to the sites.

12 This is service station

13 identification that we would update every year

14 and that would be provided to DOE so that they

15 can be apprised of who they can expect to see

16 and who is cleared and who is not.

17 It's really kind of what we

18 provide as we go now. This will be something

19 that would be provided by the Board.

20 DR. MAURO: Okay. That was my

21 question.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: It's ad hoc.
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1 DR. MAURO: Right now, it's ad hoc,

2 okay. So once that process is started by the

3 Board, the way in which we -- I know one of

4 the things that we've agreed to is this

5 baseline in that aspect.

6 But that clearly establishes

7 obligations that SC&A has to interface

8 directly with the NIOSH point of contact when

9 they're about to begin this process. I know

10 that's a little later, but before that process

11 begins, it's almost like there's another --

12 beside plugging into the NIOSH world, which

13 may have been ongoing for some time, it seems

14 that once the trigger is pulled, we have to

15 plug into the DOE world.

16 It seems a little unclear who is

17 going to have the obligation and

18 responsibility to alert the appropriate --

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Let me back up. I

20 think we're getting hung up on something that

21 was identified for the chair.

22 Really, the process is on an on-
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1 going basis, the chair of the Advisory Board

2 would certainly designate a POC for a

3 particular site.

4 Now, I say POC because clearly,

5 all the DOE sites, AWEs, have work group

6 chairs. It's not work groups necessarily.

7 DR. MAURO: Right.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: It doesn't mean we

9 wouldn't be necessarily collecting the

10 information at that site.

11 So in this case, there would be a

12 Board individual, Board member, who would have

13 cognizance of that particular site, who, if in

14 fact, either SC&A is supporting that

15 individual or is in fact, delegating

16 responsibilities to go ahead and do the data

17 access, there would be a Board individual that

18 would be sort of the Board's representative

19 for that particular site.

20 DR. MAURO: Okay.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: That's pretty much

22 the essence of what the chair would do.
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1 Now, this other item, when we got

2 into the POCs is simply housekeeping. That's

3 why I don't want to spend too much time on

4 that because really, we're sort of doing on

5 the fly, keeping DOE apprised of who is on6 site, who's clear, who's not, who's working

7 for whom, and that kind of thing.

8 I think this was just something

9 that based on experience should be helpful to

10 have the Board provide DOE rather than sort of

11 have it kind of be piecemeal as we went.

12 So this not something, I think, is

13 in PROC-010. It's not something that's in our

14 procedures, but it was felt to be a useful

15 adjunct to how we operate, rather than have it

16 be sort of ad hoc as to what SC&A is doing in

17 terms of individuals and what their clearance

18 status is and that kind of thing. So anyway,

19 that's all that is.

20 Moving beyond that, really, the

21 responsibilities for the Advisory Board POC

22 would be to do some of the up-front work that
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1 the NIOSH POC would do in PROC-010, which is

2 basically to be the interface with DOE.

3 Now, we do have that sort of

4 parenthetical mention of delegating this to

5 this technical support contractor. The reason

6 that's there is, again, the practice, as it

7 has evolved over the last five or six years is

8 in fact -- in this case, SC&A -- does handle

9 all the hands-on kind of interactions in terms

10 of data access.

11 So the question is whether or not

12 the Board work group would want to see that

13 pretty much be enabling through this or not.

14 I think that Certainly is one question that --

15 really, we have work group chairs. We have

16 POCs from the Board standpoint, but if SC&A is

17 day to day, that would be almost full time

18 collecting data interacting. It might be

19 something that makes sense.

20 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Joe, if I could

21 interrupt. This is -- and I don't mean -- I

22 think this would be the best Board to bring it
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1 in.

2 Dr. Melius raised these issues of

3 the point of contact not being the Advisory

4 Board. It being a point of contact would be

5 SC&A.

6 The reason that I initially put

7 this in here is because as an Advisory Board

8 member, we are really ultimately responsible

9 for knowing what our contractor is doing and

10 going so forth and so that's why we kind of

11 wrote it in this way.

12 But in listening to what Dr.

13 Melius has said -- he is correct that the

14 point of contact should not be the Advisory

15 Board. It should be the SC&A point of contact

16 reporting back to the Advisory Board member

17 because he agreed with me that we need to

18 know, as Advisory Board members, what is going

19 on, where they are going, what they're looking

20 for.

21 The SC&A people, with their

22 responsibilities should meet certain
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1 requirements in terms of familiarity with DOE

2 procedures, appropriate training, et cetera --

3 I'm reading from his notes -- breach

4 designated site, the work group chair will be

5 with the designated SC&A point of contact for

6 the site. The designated SC&A point of contact

7 should work with NIOSH POC and appropriate DOE

8 site and headquarter staff on records

9 requirements, et cetera.

10 His number one was the SC&A

11 project office works with the Advisory Board

12 chair to designate an SC&A point of contact to

13 assist for this program.

14 After discussing it on a phone

15 call, we all agreed with it, that what Jim was

16 saying was really right because as Advisory

17 Board members, we really don't have the time

18 to do that.

19 But what I was trying to be able

20 to say is we could delegate it too, but we

21 feel that it would be much cleaner if we

22 initially just put the responsibility onto our
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1 technical contractor.

2 That's going to come out, but in

3 this first draft, we wanted to be able to do

4 this on public and on record of the changes

5 that we wanted to do just with all our whole

6 transparency and so forth. But this is what

7 we're ultimately going for.

8 MR. KATZ: And while we're on this

9 point, let me just also note, since the

10 designated federal official is in effect,

11 really responsible for things that go wrong

12 and so on in terms of this whole world of

13 work, I think it would be useful -- I totally

14 agree about having SC&A serve as point of

15 contacts. I completely agree with that.

16 Certainly, there can be

17 communication with working group chairs where

18 there are working group chairs to keep them

19 apprised without that bogging it down in any

20 way.

21 But the designated federal

22 official, I think, needs to be informed of the
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1 assignment of an SC&A point of contact and

2 then the designated federal official can

3 communicate those to DOE. That way you have

4 that formal communication with DOE, keeping

5 apprised of who is coming on as a point of

6 contact for a particular site.

7 We can do that on an annual basis

8 or whatever makes sense in terms of keeping

9 that information fresh for the duration of

10 SC&A activities at a particular facility.

11 DR. MAURO: And I think it's

12 important to keep a record of -- one thing I

13 notice is very often, I'll find myself saying,

14 who is the NIOSH point of contact that I

15 should make sure that I put on copy on some

16 correspondence related to some activity for

17 whatever reason.

18 It's not always -- now, they're

19 entering this process in the same way, I

20 think, SC&A needs to maintain a record that's

21 available to all interested parties. Who is

22 the designated point it contact at SC&A for
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1 Santa Susana? For Fernald, et cetera, et

2 cetera, so that everyone on the Board,

3 everyone at NIOSH, and perhaps even members of

4 the public -- I don't know whether they've

5 been given --

6 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: I think NIOSH

7 and SC&A have been doing --

8 DR. MAURO: We've been trying to do

9 that.

10 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: The only thing

11 that has happened is as the work load has

12 gotten bigger, some people have been switched

13 from one side. Just like you and Hans and so

14 forth. When we do do something like that, we

15 need to just remember to be able to make

16 everybody aware of it.

17 DR. MAURO: Is this something that

18 we want to put up on the website? Right now,

19 there's none. The website is very complete.

20 That is, we have lots and lots of information

21 on work groups, who's on them. Is this

22 something that we feel -- certainly, there's
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1 nothing wrong with the procedure, but while

2 we're talking about it, is this something we

3 want to memorialize and keep current so that

4 everyone can look it up, if someone is

5 interested in getting information or getting

6 a status report? Any feelings regarding that?

7 MS. HOWELL: The list? I'm sorry?

8 DR. MAURO: The list of the

9 designated points. Once an SC&A person is

10 designated as the point of contact on a

11 particular SEC petition review or site profile

12 review, is that something you want to

13 officially put on the website so that people

14 want contact information and there's never any

15 question by a Board member because sometimes

16 it's not known.

17 Maybe there will be NIOSH people

18 who want to communicate. It goes both ways. I

19 know there are times when I say who's the lead

20 on Hanford because I may be putting a memo out

21 and I want to make sure that -- usually, what

22 I end up doing right now is sending to Jim
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1 Neton and then he makes sure the right person

2 gets it.

3 MEMBER BEACH: So you're talking

4 about adding that to the current list that's

5 already on the web, the points of contact?

6 DR. MAURO: Yes. Right now.

7 MEMBER BEACH: I believe that's

8 already done.

9 DR. MAURO: Not SC&A people.

10 MEMBER BEACH: Or is it just what

11 we did?

12 DR. MAURO: Not SC&A people.

13 MS. HOWELL: There's some on -- I

14 mean, I think -- on the work group list,

15 there's an SC&A contact.

16 DR. MAURO: Is that right?

17 MS. HOWELL: But I don't know that

18 that's the same thing.

19 DR. MAURO: I'm wrong.

20 MS. HOWELL: It may not be the same

21 thing, though.

22 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: We've got it on
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1 our work group list, but I don't know if

2 that's on the Board or not.

3 MEMBER BEACH: So this is an older

4 one, but that's what I have seen.

5 DR. MAKHIJANI: Are we -- is the

6 task manager for a particular site profile

7 going to be also the same point of contact for

8 DOE? Is that what we're talking about or is

9 there one SC&A point of contact for accessing

10 documents?

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I think the

12 intent of --

13 DR. MAKHIJANI: I'm not clear.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, the intent of

15 the provision was really to hone in on a Board

16 point of contact because I think the SC&A

17 point may actually shift around as we go from

18 site profiles to SECs or whatever.

19 More than likely, not, because

20 we've been trying to keep people consistent.

21 But nonetheless, I think that's part of the

22 reason for wanting to do this real-time
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1 listing of who's who and who's where because

2 it does get confusing for almost all parties,

3 really, as to who the point of contact might

4 be.

5 I know we had the same question of

6 NIOSH. Who's the point of contact for NIOSH?

7 DR. MAURO: You know what's

8 interesting? In our situation, we do have an

9 individual -- for example, I'm the lead on

10 Fernald, but when it comes to -- whenever we

11 do need to have a site visit, data capture,

12 that responsibility, quite frankly, I think

13 for all sites, has fallen on Kathy Biers.

14 In other words, she has been the

15 person that has been making all the

16 arrangements, has developed a relationship

17 with all the contact points. It seems to be

18 working well.

19 So in a funny sort of way, though

20 I might be the lead, I look to Kathy to

21 implement and schedule all of the myriad

22 things that need to be done to make
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1 arrangements for these kinds of things and to

2 communicate with the lead point of contact.

3 So I think, Arjun, your question

4 is very well taken. One person might very well

5 be the lead for the particular site profile

6 review, but in terms of the point of contact

7 and the actual day to day interaction between

8 whether it's NIOSH and DOE, it's usually Kathy

9 unless --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: That's why --

11 DR. MAURO: It's a little bit of ad

12 hoc.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: It has been.

14 That's why I think it's important that there

15 is a designated Board point of contact who is

16 aware of who's who and who's doing what at

17 their particular site and if there's some way

18 to convey that information, whether it's the

19 DFO or whomever, so that they know who to call

20 or contact.

21 Now, you're right. I think it has

22 been ad hoc and I think it's one of these
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1 where familiarity -- Gina knows to call Kathy

2 if they say interview question and knows to

3 call me if it's a security issue or knows to

4 call you if it's a Fernald work group issue

5 from the SC&A standpoint. So it's sort of

6 tribal knowledge, but it does get confusing at

7 times when you have so many sites.

8 I think we've kind of got to the

9 point where we have a lot of parties, a lot of

10 sites, a lot of POCs. I was sort of writing

11 this up and I sort of got tangled up in all

12 the POCs.

13 DR. MAURO: Well, maybe we can

14 regiment it. Maybe the reality is there are

15 certain process and I guess it's up to you,

16 Ted, sort of processes that we do have to

17 leave a little bit of wiggle room to allow the

18 process to breathe. I don't know.

19 MR. KATZ: I mean, I think I would

20 prefer -- and we can add this to the

21 procedures as an initial step, since the

22 procedure sort of starts with the assumption
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1 that there's a point of contact-- but that

2 there be an assignment of a point of contact.

3 That can change. There's no time requirement

4 on that, but that there be -- SC&A would

5 assign a point of contact and inform me and

6 inform also if there's a relevant working

7 group chair, inform that person too of that.

8 Anyway, I can inform NIOSH and DOE

9 who that point of contact is and keep that

10 information fresh just as long as I'm apprised

11 by SC&A. Emily?

12 MS. HOWELL: And I just want to

13 interject before we get away from this point

14 of contact discussion that I'd like to see --

15 and I think you've already made a note about

16 this, Joe -- but I'd like to see the role of

17 the DFO as both the contracting officer and

18 the designated federal official for the Board.

19 It is necessary that he or she be

20 included on all of these communications, not

21 just initially, but it bears ongoing things

22 happening between the technical support
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1 contractor point of contact, the Board point

2 of contact.

3 Ted or whomever is serving as the

4 DFO needs to be cc'ed on all of those e-mails

5 because otherwise we have no ability to really

6 track. Since we're working with different

7 Board members, different SC&A or other

8 technical support staff, the agency and the

9 Board has to have somebody who's actually able

10 to track what's going on and that's necessary

11 from a contracting perspective. It's necessary

12 from a FACA perspective, so that needs to be

13 clarified in this paragraph.

14 The one mention of the DFO near

15 the bottom really makes it sound like the only

16 purpose of notifying the DFO is to coordinate

17 with NIOSH to prevent duplication of work and

18 that's not really it.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: No, that's a -- I

20 did make note of that, by the way, but I think

21 you're evoking something even more relevant.

22 I think it's a discussion because
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1 as the Board is, I think, understandably

2 reluctant to get into the day to day because

3 of the amount of interaction that goes on --

4 I mean, typical DOE site data access interview

5 process is just almost a daily interaction. I

6 think the NIOSH folks appreciate that too,

7 having been on-site doing the same thing.

8 We don't and I don't know if you

9 want to have the 100's of thousands of

10 communications cc'ed. I think, though, if I

11 can make a distinction -- what you're

12 referring to is the sort of formal, here's a

13 data capture plan. Here's a site visit that

14 we're scheduling, things that would be

15 milestones rather than this sort of minutiae

16 of what happened to this document, can we

17 coordinate these documents?

18 MS. HOWELL: Right.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: I think you're

20 talking about those milestones. That's a

21 subjective thing, but I think I understand

22 what you're saying.
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1 MS. HOWELL: I think you're going

2 to have to use some discretion, obviously, but

3 I mean, when in doubt --

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

5 MR. KATZ: I concur completely with

6 what you said, Joe. The major milestones are

7 what I would be cc'ed on. Then if there are

8 problems that arise from the SC&A's

9 perspective or DOE's, that's when I would --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: That's helpful

11 because I think that's the way it operates now

12 and we'll certainly put something in here

13 that's more distinct about that need and

14 requirement that DFO be copied if not included

15 in some of these things in terms of actual

16 actions.

17 These are actions or milestones

18 where the process is moving forward, for

19 example, and commitments are being made. Some

20 of these have implications on DOE for

21 resources, which I appreciate that is a key

22 aspect of where NIOSH has to be involved
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1 because again, from an inter-agency

2 standpoint, if a request goes on and it

3 involves their making documents available or

4 doing things for us, then that will need some

5 kind of account commitment, which I understand

6 -- I'm not sure all the backroom machinations,

7 but they'll have to make sure they get paid

8 for that.

9 MR. KATZ: So I think some of that

10 back, in particular, can be reflected in the

11 procedures themselves. But in this section

12 that we're in right now, responsibilities, I

13 think the DFO role can just be elaborated a

14 little to explained the general role.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Maybe even a

16 separate --

17 MR. KATZ: It doesn't -- we

18 shouldn't have procedures in the roles, per

19 se.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

21 MR. KATZ: We just want to explain

22 the role.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, right. I

2 think this is probably fairly exhaustive as it

3 stands. But I think the intent was to provide

4 enough details to give some sense about what

5 these individuals would be doing.

6 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Joe, can I bring

7 up one thing? John brought up that on the

8 NIOSH web page that the SC&A contact and

9 actually even the NIOSH contact -- where it

10 shows the different working groups, it just

11 has the Advisory Board members. It does not

12 have SC&A or the NIOSH point of contact on

13 that.

14 That would be for Larry if they

15 want to put that. But right now, all there is

16 is the working groups and the Advisory Board

17 members are on.

18 MEMBER BEACH: Ours must come out.

19 MR. KATZ: Yes, there are two

20 versions. There's a version that gets sent to

21 the Board that has -- because the Board needs

22 to know the SC&A contacts. But then there's
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1 the version that's -- he's absolutely right --

2 the version that's on the website just lists

3 the Board membership.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Just picking

5 up where we left off on the -- this is, again,

6 still with the Advisory Board point of contact

7 or its designee. Again, that possibility.

8 I think Brad made the comment that

9 we're sort of in a dual mode. I mean, the

10 draft reflects the Advisory Board point of

11 contact being in this role of doing sort of

12 first hand interface with DOE.

13 A comment from Jim Melius was this

14 should be pre-delegated, and as it's done now,

15 you may have the technical support contractor,

16 SC&A, do this work and keep the Board

17 informed.

18 I think -- I've worked with them

19 in discussion, but I guess that's -- you

20 accept that approach?

21 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Yes. I accept

22 that approach. My main thing that I was trying
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1 to get by the Advisory Board working group

2 chair would be involved so that he knew what

3 was going on at the sites, what was being

4 requested, and where they were going at. I

5 just wanted to have a little bit more input of

6 what was going on.

7 We'd still be able to have with

8 what Dr. Melius says, but then there would be

9 no question as to a Board member taking on

10 that kind of responsibility because

11 truthfully, that's a full time job.

12 MR. KATZ: To affect that -- I

13 mean, to get what Brad's asking for -- if

14 you're going to be copying me anyway under

15 major milestones and making requests to decide

16 who's going to be a visit, et cetera, you can

17 copy the working group chair on these

18 communications and that way they're completely

19 informed as well.

20 Then if Board members want to

21 participate in a visit, et cetera, that will

22 be their information to be able to act on. I
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1 think that will work very easily.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: And I think that

3 would also tighten up a system, which I think

4 we're operating under anyway, but would make

5 it much more systemic that everybody would

6 know each step of the way how things are going

7 on-site and could choose to participate, raise

8 questions, and what not.

9 There was an argument here I just

10 want to -- again, we're still on the top part

11 of page 3 under the Advisory Board point of

12 contact where we indicate that again, we'll

13 coordinate first time visits and this is

14 pretty much the current practice.

15 Again, this doesn't get into a

16 flow diagram, but I think it touches on the

17 things that we would raise questions or

18 requests of DOE on which are arrangements for

19 site visits, describing the activities, who we

20 are, what we are intending to do, and

21 requesting assistance from the site of DOE

22 headquarters and meeting DOE security
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1 classification review obligations.

2 The next one, where we coordinate,

3 submit all data requests to DOE, which is of

4 course the data capture plan, and then this is

5 something that -- what we say next, is insures

6 that the information capture is properly

7 protected and is provided for uploading in the

8 site research database.

9 This is in PROC-010. This is not

10 something that we do routinely. I think it's

11 been moving that way, in terms of under PROC12 010 and even before that, trying to make sure

13 what we collect is shared fully with NIOSH and

14 ORAU and then can be put up on SRDB.

15 I think it's a great idea. I think

16 it's something that we want to see happen as

17 well and we, in fact, have been doing that, I

18 think, since probably early fall. I think,

19 with Mound, in fact, we've been it since last

20 summer.

21 But the -- and we'll get to this

22 detail a little later -- the logistics of
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1 scanning, which is something that we don't

2 routinely do, I think is a challenge. I think

3 what we've done in the past and what I did at

4 Mound was I was there with ORAU and ORAU

5 scanned while we collected, which was very

6 convenient. I'm not sure that's going to

7 happen at all the sites.

8 So in terms of a loose end, I

9 think it's a good idea to make sure that

10 everything that we collect gets on the SRDB as

11 available, but the mechanics of getting it

12 scanned and doing that, I think, we'll have to

13 pick up on later.

14 I think what we say in the

15 corresponding piece that is in PROC-010 about

16 how that's done, I think we just indicate that

17 either NIOSH or DOE would do that. Now, again,

18 that's a strawman. I have no idea what either

19 one would be willing to do. But I think that's

20 a need that has to be addressed.

21 How? We don't have scanning

22 equipment. Certainly, we don't necessarily
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1 have access to either agency and it's not

2 clear either agency would be willing to do

3 that, but to make that happen, I think that's

4 an open question. I don't know if you want to

5 talk about that now or talk about it later.

6 DR. MAURO: But when that happens -

7 - let's say our phones are out of site and we

8 go through the limited bibliographic databases

9 at the site --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: We go through

11 boxes of records. We pull records, right.

12 DR. MAURO: And if we have them in

13 front of us, we say, here's what we need.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: You want that.

15 Right.

16 DR. MAURO: Now, it's at that -- so

17 we're physically actually at the DOE site now

18 when we identify documents that we think are

19 important?

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

21 DR. MAURO: And we want to bring --

22 we want them cleared?
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: What we do --

2 well, clearance is another issue.

3 DR. MAURO: Okay.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: But in terms of --

5 assuming that it's already been reviewed,

6 screened, and what we're looking at is

7 cleared, we want a copy. We copy it and we

8 bring it back. That's pretty much the way it's

9 been.

10 DR. MAURO: Well, now we share. I

11 ask, how do we share?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, the question

13 is how do we go from having a copy of a

14 relevant document that we'll reference in our

15 review to one which is not only shared with

16 NIOSH and ORAU, which we do, and they, in this

17 case, have scanned our copy or scanned the

18 original -- at Mound, they were scanning

19 originals because we were doing it at the same

20 time -- but how do we go into an electronic

21 form.

22 Now, there's a number of reasons
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1 why -- I don't know if we need to spend time

2 today trying to figure out the mechanics of

3 how you do it. I'm just saying that I think

4 the intent is there, the need is there. It's

5 not clear how that could happen. We could

6 certainly shift copies of what we find to one

7 of two agencies. We can work with the DFO in

8 terms of capabilities for scanning, portable

9 scanning.

10 I'm just saying that that -- even

11 though it's in the procedures, the ability to

12 do that is not there right now.

13 DR. MAURO: Is it something that

14 would be different depending on the site and

15 the degree to which the site --

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, and I think

17 that's covered. That's covered in the NIOSH

18 procedure.

19 DR. MAURO: Maybe we should be

20 looking -- in other words, we're going to do

21 it. How it's going to be done has to be dealt

22 with on a case by case basis? Would that be --
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1 MEMBER PRESLEY: Jim, you know DOE

2 is not going to let you do your own scanning.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: No, but I'm just

4 tracking with, I think, the approach that was

5 mentioned in a NIOSH document, which said that

6 some sites, I guess it was capable to make

7 arrangements and that was one of the options.

8 Another of the options was to do scanning on9 site.

10 In our case, a third option was we

11 just would send it back to SC&A and they would

12 do the scanning. I'm just raising that because

13 I don't think that was within the scope of

14 work originally and having been there

15 firsthand, it's not a trivial thing.

16 It's actually a lot of work to go

17 through and do page by page by page. I was

18 relieved that Mounds and actually ORAU was

19 willing to scan our documents too. I'm just

20 saying that that needs to be addressed as a

21 loose end, but it's a big loose end in terms

22 of making that happen.
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1 MEMBER PRESLEY: Don't the

2 documents have to b DC'ed, number one before

3 they go off site.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, this is not

5 DOE -- this is after they've been DC'ed, but

6 before we take them and start using them. The

7 question is how do we get them, both NIOSH and

8 ORAU, and also get them into an electronic

9 form. Maybe that's -- maybe they go over hard

10 copy and is scanned once it gets over to NIOSH

11 or ORAU.

12 MR. KATZ: Another current OCAS

13 procedures is 5.1.5, just as long as we've

14 jumped ahead and we're discussing the scanning

15 question. OCAS has it at simply two

16 alternatives -- NIOSH or its contractors

17 conduct the scanning.

18 It says when NIOSH contractors

19 conduct scanning, the DOE site POC is

20 responsible for providing adequate space to

21 conduct scanning and for ensuring that all

22 documentation is appropriately marked before
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1 the scanning is conducted.

2 The alternative is DOE conducts

3 the scanning. It says when DOE agrees to

4 conduct the scanning, NIOSH site POC and the

5 DOE site POC will coordinate an appropriate

6 schedule to ensure scanning conducting in the

7 time frame that meets NIOSH's needs and duty.

8 I think SC&A can have just the

9 parallel structure there. Maybe I'm naive, but

10 in scanning equipment, I think, to the extent

11 that you do your own scanning, this isn't

12 major purchases of very expensive equipment

13 and so on, is it? I mean, it's --

14 MEMBER BEACH: It could be

15 resources and equipment taken to the site.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: It's going to be

17 time and equipment. That's basically it.

18 MR. KATZ: Right. But it's an

19 appropriate expenditure of time because the

20 purpose of this is important to everybody.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: If it helps to

22 streamline it, if you want to give us hard
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1 copies, we could get it scanned. We could put

2 it in PDF and put it in whatever folders you

3 want us to put it in.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: I think what we're

5 trying to do is avoid an extra step where if

6 you have receipt requirements, meaning that I

7 think I've seen the screening requirements for

8 what goes on in the SRDB, and there's a number

9 of thresholds that have to be met before it

10 gets put on.

11 I wouldn't want to try to have

12 them do the scanning, have to go back and

13 forth, if it's easier just to send the hard

14 copies over.

15 But I didn't want to presume, in

16 this part piece, that this would be picked up

17 one way or the other at this point.

18 MR. KATZ: I think it's near

19 procedure of you just provide for it either

20 being done by SC&A in a case where DOE is not

21 going to do it or as Larry just offered,

22 providing the materials to NIOSH to do the
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1 scanning. That will work?

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, we'll then

3 take another look at the provision that you

4 just mentioned in there and use the same

5 language. But again, that's just cited as one

6 of the roles.

7 Just to complete what we had for

8 the Advisory POC, before we lose that thread,

9 the Advisory Board POC or, I guess, where we

10 are now, is SC&A is responsible for notifying

11 NIOSH, the DFO -- and again, I think the point

12 is well taken that we're going to be much

13 clearer that there's more with the DFO than we

14 have here -- and working group members,

15 concerning site visits when we're going to the

16 sites for the first time and also on-site

17 visits and coordinating data capture requests

18 as we're doing now, the idea there is to avoid

19 unnecessary duplication with previous and

20 ongoing NIOSH data requests.

21 I think that's been actually, in

22 practice, working much better. The issue there
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1 is essentially full disclosure on both sites

2 so that when we go to DOE, who is the

3 recipient of both levels of request, they're

4 not getting the same request and we're

5 avoiding that duplication.

6 We'll get into, maybe, some of

7 that a little later. I think what may be

8 lacking is, to some extent -- we call it

9 baseline, but the disclosure is somewhat ad

10 hoc in a sense that I think we're sending e11 mails back and forth requesting information.

12 I think one advantage and one

13 improvement might just to be make that a

14 little bit more automatic as we go into

15 different sites to -- and this goes for us as

16 well -- to just pretty much put all the

17 information on the table that's been collected

18 to date and also anything that's in progress

19 so that when we go to DOE, they're not going

20 to come back and say well, NIOSH just got that

21 or the same people have been interviewed

22 already.
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1 DR. MAURO: Let's talk about a

2 little bit of a practical side. The real world

3 work we've seen, like, for example, I believe

4 there was a Brookhaven action and there were

5 reports for March.

6 As always, we wanted to --

7 sometimes, you know, you're not available and

8 the question we then find ourselves, all

9 right, well, lest sit tight for awhile. Wait

10 till we get a chance and I think eventually

11 everything got cleared up.

12 One of the things I did, for

13 better or worse, is I said, well, listen. We

14 do it the best we can to coordinate,

15 communicate baseline, but I don't want to hold

16 up the train. So I said let it rip. That's

17 what I did.

18 Now, I realize that that breaks

19 the rules because we're supposed to hold off.

20 But maybe there's a -- because in the real

21 world, everyone is not always available when

22 you'd like to have them available. That's just
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1 the way it is and there's nothing wrong with

2 that.

3 Well, I guess I'd like to talk a

4 little bit about when we -- let's say we e5 mail, make a couple of phone calls, give a

6 reasonable amount of time, whatever that

7 means, to try to get some feedback, maybe even

8 contact General Contact or contact Ted for

9 this and in the process of trying to baseline

10 and launch, at some point though, I guess, we

11 want to move. I mean, we've got our horses

12 ready to go. 

13 I've got a little feel from what

14 the sense is. When we run into these types of

15 obstacles, which happen regularly and it's

16 okay, should we just move and just keep you

17 apprised so that you know we've started to

18 move and eventually, we re-connect or should

19 we just sit tight and wait until -- and not

20 launch?

21 MR. CALHOUN: I don't think we

22 should hold you up. I mean, in that one
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1 particular case, I thought I had sent it and

2 I didn't.

3 I think that I would be okay with

4 saying hey, I've asked this a couple times. I

5 haven't got it, so I'm going to be moving

6 forward. That's what I do and it worked for

7 me.

8 DR. MAURO: It will catch up. It

9 catches up. It's all well-intended. It just

10 happens.

11 MR. KATZ: But the situation is

12 much easier now because now you don't have --

13 you're not going through a NIOSH point of

14 contact for making requests and so on. I mean,

15 the only thing you need to do with the OCAS

16 staff is baseline.

17 DR. MAURO: This is what I want

18 because right now --

19 MR. KATZ: In this instance, but in

20 general, this is going to --

21 MR. CALHOUN: We want to keep it as

22 efficient as we can with DOE too.
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1 MR. KATZ: Absolutely.

2 MR. CALHOUN: The harder we make it

3 for them, the harder they make it for us.

4 MR. KATZ: Absolutely.

5 DR. MAURO: When you step back on

6 the history of this, the real trigger, or one

7 of the big triggers of the problem, was going

8 back to DOE, asking is this the document that

9 you folks you already have and that's

10 embarrassing.

11 So we really, really give a great

12 deal of importance to baseline.

13 MR. KATZ: Okay, just to recap.

14 What we have for the Advisory Board POC, based

15 on Jim Melius's comments -- a lot of that

16 would evolve to SC&A, but essentially, it's to

17 make arrangements with the site.

18 This is with the DOE site, in

19 terms of data capture, planning interviews,

20 how to deal with classified information, how

21 to coordinate the actual on-site work, and

22 what we indicate was those specific milestones
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1 would be certainly coordinated, copied with

2 the DFO as we progressed.

3 But we would act on behalf of the

4 Advisory Board POC, typically the work group

5 chair in most cases, and would keep that work

6 group chair or Advisory Board person apprised

7 the same way the DFO is apprised, but pretty

8 much as we progress through the major

9 milestones of the process of getting

10 information and doing interviews.

11 We would keep everybody informed

12 as we went. We would not necessarily,

13 obviously, day to day, try to deluge anybody

14 with everything that we're doing, but

15 certainly the milestones we would keep you

16 apprised of.

17 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: And when will

18 you copy that? You said the DFO.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, and again, I

20 think the major milestones would be the

21 initial contact when we do send a letter to

22 the site that kind of lays out who we are,
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1 what we're doing, the purpose, and some key

2 word searches, that kind of thing.

3 We have, over the last year, come

4 up with a data capture plan approach -- I

5 think we prototyped it at Mound -- where we

6 mirrored pretty much what NIOSH and ORAU does

7 in the way of coming up with a formal plan

8 that lays this out -- who we want to talk to,

9 what information we want.

10 That data capture plan would be

11 baselined against anything that NIOSH has done

12 at the site, NIOSH and ORAU, to make sure

13 there's not any duplication. That would be

14 something that would happen very early in the

15 process.

16 I think one difference that would

17 be in the procedure would -- we'd want that to

18 be sort of a baseline to start with. It

19 wouldn't be something we'd have to go through

20 a lot of requests for. It would be an

21 understanding that essentially what we want is

22 what documents, classified and unclassified,
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1 to happen collective -- in terms of classified

2 documents, where they reside since obviously

3 they can't be easily forwarded.

4 In terms of the unclassified

5 documents, the ones that are generally

6 available -- what's on the site research

7 database, the O: drive, what is not -- perhaps

8 they haven't been scanned yet -- and what is

9 in process of being collected, which is the

10 tougher part. That's the one where the request

11 has been made.

12 Maybe the documents are coming,

13 but they're not available yet. But yet, we

14 probably don't want to ding DOE again to ask

15 the same stuff. We know what's in the

16 pipeline. We just won't ask for those

17 documents. We'll wait for them to arrive and

18 be scanned in and then go forward. That would

19 be a big benefit.

20 Looking at things like Brookhaven

21 and other sites, I think we probably can

22 reduce the number of documents duplications by
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1 50, 75 percent. It's a large number of

2 documents that we would have asked for. We're

3 not going to ask for because it's already been

4 requested and obtained. So this is a major,

5 major saving, in terms of the efficiency of

6 the process.

7 Once we go through the baseline,

8 however, and find what may be left that we're

9 going to go through and submit those to DOE

10 and collect those documents and from there, I

11 think, go ahead and do the interviews and

12 write the report.

13 But those milestones would be

14 copied to both Ted, DFO, and to the

15 appropriate Advisory Board POC. So that's kind

16 of the summary of that responsibility.

17 DR. MAURO: Joe, once you get by

18 the baseline process in the raw and running --

19 we've done due diligence and we've made sure

20 that we reviewed and now we have our plan and

21 we know what we want to do, we've put together

22 our data capture plan and wrote the DOE, how
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1 closely do we coordinate and communicate with

2 the NIOSH point of contact once we're off and

3 running on the whole. When I say on the whole,

4 we've finished the baseline.

5 How closely knit -- I know you

6 were very close with Brant throughout the

7 process on Mound. You guys were connected at

8 the hip during the process, watching the e9 mail exchanges.

10 Once we're off and running, is

11 this something that takes its own form as a

12 self organizing process?

13 MR. FITZGERALD: I think it's both.

14 I think -- it's all fact finding, so if I find

15 facts that NIOSH doesn't have access to, I'm

16 going to make those facts available and

17 documents and interview notes, that kind of

18 thing, so once we capture what we capture in

19 the way of documents and whatnot, they would

20 and should be available.

21 Now, obviously, the research and

22 analysis and figuring out what it means from
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1 the standpoint of the independent review, that

2 would be propriety and is something that we

3 would, obviously, keep to ourselves. But the

4 actual documents and the facts collected at

5 the site is something that should be shared

6 and we've been sharing that.

7 So really, that's not going to

8 change. I think interaction after we've been

9 on-site is one of making documents and facts

10 available to everybody, no matter who collects

11 it and then engaging back and forth.

12 I think with Mound, if I'd come

13 across documents that Brant wasn't aware of,

14 I'd just send them over and he did the same.

15 So I think the fact finding part, I think, is

16 pretty straightforward,

17 MR. KATZ: So even, I mean, part of

18 this is already -- since you're going to be

19 notifying the DFO on major milestones like

20 captures and so on, and I'm sure you'll be

21 speaking to the OCAS point of contact anyway

22 because you're checking up on whether they're
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1 in the process of getting something anyway,

2 but I get copied as well, just as another

3 failsafe. So I can copy the OCAS point of

4 contact with that information so they know as

5 well that that next step is coming online.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, the

7 interaction would be matter of coordinating

8 milestone and any resource issues because

9 again, resource issues would be on -- we have

10 a site that may not have the resources, and

11 this is very common, or can't get to it

12 because they have other priorities.

13 We would both inform the DOE

14 counterparts and inform you that we have a

15 problem. Wednesday have to wait for some

16 resolution of the problem from that

17 standpoint.

18 DR. MAURO: So there are really

19 several hubs. In other words, when you're

20 working and communicating -- you've provided

21 the information that's critical. You've

22 provided the Board chairperson, Brad, with the
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1 same information, so there are more than one

2 hub where information goes out and from there,

3 it goes out further.

4 For example, when you get your

5 information, I guess you communicate and

6 coordinate with an array of individuals that

7 you feel are essential and need to be kept

8 informed of these matters.

9 Same thing goes with the Board

10 members. Is it true that with -- I don't think

11 we're dealing with a linear process. That's

12 what I'm getting at.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: No, no, no.

14 Absolutely not because, take Brookhaven, for

15 example. We're doing a site -- we're halfway

16 through a site profile review while Grady is

17 finishing up probably ER and we'll finish that

18 up just as something is going to happen with

19 his product and then we may very well turn

20 around and let the Board authorize to do

21 additional work, so it's going to be a very

22 organic process.
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1 The only thing I think we can do

2 is make sure everybody knows who's on first,

3 who's on second, that we're in fact, on-site,

4 doing this so if he or his folks are going on5 site as well, they know we're there doing data

6 capture for a site profile review.

7 If DOE, say Brookhaven, is maybe

8 balking because they feel like they've been

9 inundated -- they don't really easily make the

10 distinction. This is SC&A and this is NIOSH.

11 They just see external folks coming in.

12 So just having that information

13 out, I think, is important. The rest of it is

14 simply something that we would do in practice,

15 which is to make sure that there's full

16 disclosure of all factual documents,

17 information that's been collected so that

18 everybody has the same facts.

19 What we do with the facts is

20 another issue, but the facts are there and

21 there's no surprises as we go along if there's

22 a document or something that somebody wasn't
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1 aware of. There's always some gaffes.

2 Something comes up. But we typically take care

3 of it pretty fast.

4 Okay, I think -- unless there's

5 some questions capsules what we have looked at

6 or the Advisory Board slash technical support

7 contractor role and how that plays against the

8 DOE and NIOSH.

9 Now, the DOE site point of

10 contact, I think we -- I'll have to go back

11 and double-check, but I think we kind of

12 mirrored much of what was in PROC-010 on what

13 DOE's role would be.

14 This kind of reflects current

15 practice in respecting we still have to work

16 through the Greg Lewises and whatnot to make

17 introductions to sites. Then once we get on18 site, we have to deal with the site point of

19 contact and their security people. I've been

20 doing this for five years so in a sense, 

21 there's some native understanding of how that

22 works. Each site has a different records
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1 process and different faces that touch, so

2 that has to be tailored.

3 We do rely on folks like Kathy

4 Robertson-Demers because this tends to be an

5 experience-based process where you sort of

6 have to navigate the site in terms of what's

7 required.

8 But the DOE point of contact, that

9 responsibility is essentially, once the

10 coordination is done, to provide the records

11 to gather information and make arrangements

12 for interviews to -- whatever site-specific

13 requirements there are for records and

14 security. That's pretty much laid out in this

15 provision.

16 MR. KATZ: I just have a comment

17 about this. This is in partners of this, but

18 it goes right on this and I just would make

19 the suggestion -- so OCAS basically just says

20 this is DOE point of site, site POC's role and

21 leaves it at that.

22 But this goes beyond that and sort
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1 of instructs DOE about how to conduct this

2 role. I would suggest that that's really not

3 appropriate for your procedure.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Can you be

5 specific?

6 MR. KATZ: So beginning after

7 directives here, it says that -- it goes on to

8 say -- so it tells you what the DOE POC will

9 do -- provide access, et cetera -- and then it

10 says the DOE site POC will develop and

11 administer a process to ensure that DOE

12 documents undergo thorough and timely

13 classification review, blah, blah, blah.

14 I'm just saying that's really --

15 that's DOE's responsibility to handle their

16 business well. I really think probably your

17 document shouldn't be instructing DOE on how

18 to do their work because at least, the OCAS

19 document doesn't instruct DOE on how it's to

20 do its work in parallel, and I think you have

21 to -- certainly, if there are issues because

22 DOE is not doing its work in a way that's
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1 timely and so on, that's again, when I would

2 want to know about that and then we can have

3 discussions with DOE about the problems.

4 But really, to sort of lay out in

5 this document --

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, maybe it's

7 the --

8 MR. KATZ: There's performance

9 expectation --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: I don't think it's

11 performance expectations. I think it was more

12 reflecting actual experience with what role

13 they assume.

14 This is strictly a section on

15 roles, so if the will -- the use of the will

16 is -- noting some -- then I would just say

17 strike --

18 MR. KATZ: If you're striking the

19 wills, I think maybe it's just the --

20 MR. FITZGERALD: I mean, I think

21 you could lose it completely just because I

22 don't think really it's necessary, but that's
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1 again --

2 MR. KATZ: Also, John, I guess

3 maybe the issue of -- DOE, at then end of the

4 day, DOE is going to have to be happy with

5 your procedure before you can implement it.

6 I'm trying to save you the problem

7 of going to the Board with a document that has

8 components in it that Doe is unhappy with and

9 then you won't come out of, necessarily, the

10 Board meeting. 

11 MR. FITZGERALD: No, we certainly

12 don't want to make DOE unhappy.

13 MR. KATZ: I'm trying to just --

14 I'd love to see the procedures in effect as

15 quickly as possible so that SC&A can be

16 running under its own rules -- I mean, under

17 the Board's rules. So I wouldn't gratuitously

18 add anything to these documents that might

19 cause a hiccup.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: That's probably a

21 point well taken. I don't think there was any

22 intent.
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1 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: The part about

2 the very last statement here though, that DOE

3 site -- DOE will determine any training

4 requirements -- see, that's part of the thing

5 we got into some.

6 Besides, when we get in there, all

7 of a sudden, they do get to us, but

8 communicate these to the Advisory Board so

9 that we know what we're needing to be able to

10 have because -- like rad worker or any of

11 these other things that we need to be able to

12 do any of these.

13 I was just -- the very last line

14 that DOE is -- site POC will determine any

15 training requirements, communicate these to

16 the Advisory Board and their technical site

17 designated -- available --

18 MR. KATZ: Well, is that not

19 actually covered in the procedures themselves?

20 If not -- I mean, having that -- that's just

21 a role. I think that's okay. It probably

22 belongs in the appropriate place in the
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1 procedure itself.

2 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Okay, but --

3 MR. KATZ: But that's not --

4 again, I'm not concerned about that, about

5 actual role information. It's just not

6 instructing them on how to do their work.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think some

8 of this is essentially the role that they

9 play. I do agree that the will part -- the use

10 of the word will -- probably gives it the

11 connotation that wasn't intended.

12 But I also appreciate what you're

13 saying is that, if we outline a DOE role, even

14 if it's what was experienced in practice,

15 certainly, you would have to have the Board or

16 the Board would need to run it past DOE to see

17 if they would agree.

18 That is an issue since I would

19 imagine that the DOE site point of contact

20 role that's in PROC-010 was probably based on

21 something that's been reviewed by DOE.

22 DR. MAURO: One of the things that
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1 I think you tried to do here is that, in

2 effect, what's being said is it is the Board's

3 desire or understanding that certain good

4 things will happen.

5 See, you're not really writing

6 their procedures. We can't do that. I mean,

7 you're absolutely right. We can't say they

8 will do this or shall do that.

9 But the idea that -- and maybe

10 that's not the place for it -- but the

11 importance of the interaction and the kinds of

12 actions that are going to be taken by DOE.

13 There's certain things that are going to be

14 very important for us to get our job done. In

15 effect, that's what you're really doing.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Let me just read

17 this for a second. I'll drop the will out

18 because that, I think, is a grammatical -- let

19 me read this without the wills.

20 Again, I don't disagree that

21 certainly I would want Jean or somebody to

22 say, well, that doesn't cause me heartburn
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1 because that's what we do. But let me just

2 read it without the will.

3 The DOE site point of contact --

4 this is DOE again -- develops and administers

5 a process to ensure that DOE documents undergo

6 thorough and timely classification control

7 reviews prior to release. The DOE provides

8 timely classification control reviews of

9 notes, drafts, and reports generated to

10 fulfill requirements contained and reviews

11 conducted at the site level.

12 They may also designate an

13 authorized representative to act in their

14 place for all responsibilities outlined below,

15 including coordination of all aspects with the

16 Advisory Board or their designee, technical

17 support contractor designee.

18 Information reviewed and

19 requested, I guess, would be provide to the

20 Advisory Board or their technical support

21 contractor. DOE site point of contact

22 determines any training requirements,
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1 communicates these to the Advisory Board or

2 SC&A and arranges for that required training.

3 This, again, is based on practice, but --

4 MR. KATZ: If you want to -- I

5 mean, if you want commentary on what DOE does,

6 I think that's okay. I don't think that -- I

7 know they wouldn't expect to have heartburn

8 over that.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: But I think the

10 point is well taken. I think the way it was

11 crafted, with the three wills, I would object

12 to as well, so that wasn't intended, but I

13 think that does -- I think we interpreted it

14 that way.

15 MEMBER BEACH: I would like to see

16 it tacked in without the wills personally.

17 MS. HOWELL: And also, if you're

18 going to keep it in, then the language about

19 providing information should also probably

20 list the DFO at the end.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: At the end?

22 Relative to the training or --
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1 MS. HOWELL: Just that they're

2 going to communicate things to the DFO in

3 addition to the Advisory Board and technical

4 support contractor.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: In the last sentence.

7 MR. KATZ: Actually, not to the --

8 it wouldn't be to the Advisory Board. I don't

9 think they would be directly communicating to

10 the Advisory Board about these, right?

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, in the

12 current construct, it would be the SC&A.

13 MR. KATZ: Right. That's what I'm

14 saying. That's all.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: And Emily, what

16 you're saying is that with any interagency

17 communications, the DFO would be on cc?

18 MS. HOWELL: Yes.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Okay, DOE

20 headquarters point of contact -- I think,

21 again, the context of this was to reflect

22 what's been the practice, so this does go a
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1 little further than the statement in the

2 equivalent, PROC-010.

3 I'm just going to read through

4 this and if there's any wills, you can whack

5 them out. Maybe I'll whack them out.

6 MR. KATZ: Just whack them as you

7 read them.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: DOE headquarters

9 point of contact is responsible for

10 coordinating and providing funding to the DOE

11 site POC, support Advisory Board or technical

12 support contractor requests for information.

13 MR. KATZ: Just about the wills

14 before you get into it, the first half of this

15 paragraph comes right out of OCAS in this

16 line, I think. I think it mirrors the OCAS.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: DOE headquarters

18 point of contact.

19 MR. KATZ: Really, once you get to,

20 for documents submitted that you've gone

21 beyond what OCAS has.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Let me just
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1 make sure I make another line here. Again,

2 this is just pretty much mirroring what's in

3 PROC-010, so DOE headquarters would be

4 responsible for coordinating, providing

5 funding to the DOE site point of contact. They

6 will facilitate necessary approvals for the

7 Advisory Board, to enter DOE facilities,

8 review records, gather information, conduct

9 interviews, and perform other related

10 activities. This would include establishing

11 Advisory Board or support contractor, need to

12 know, press appropriate signal clearances, and

13 coordinate and transmit clearance information

14 to enable Advisory Board members and

15 contractor to access sensitive information.

16 So this is right out of PROC-010.

17 This would be the additional language which we

18 have proposed. For documents submitted to

19 headquarters for review -- and I'll take out

20 the will -- they would develop and administer

21 a process to ensure that DOE documents undergo

22 thorough and timely classification control
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1 reviews prior to their release.

2 This is similar to what was

3 written before. The DOE headquarters will

4 assist the Advisory Board and their contractor

5 in locating facilities where

6 classified/controlled unclassified information

7 will store process transmitter discussed in a

8 secure manner.

9 That's another practice that

10 they've been doing. They have set up secure

11 locations for us at certain sites and have

12 arranged for storage of UCNI.

13 The DOE headquarters will

14 designate an experienced security advisor to

15 assist the Advisory Board and its support

16 contractor in resolving security issues.

17 They have done that. We do have a

18 couple folks at headquarters who act in that

19 role, that they've asked us to more or less

20 coordinate with those individuals when we have

21 questions or issues.

22 Again, the will part, I think,
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1 obviously needs to come out so the context is

2 easier. This is a descriptor of roles, not a

3 functional statement.

4 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: All right.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, moving on,

6 if -- I mean, that's the addition to what was

7 in PROC-010 and that reflects practice that

8 we've been undergoing.

9 Site classification officer -- I

10 don't know if --

11 MR. KATZ: It's not the OCAS one.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Again, this is by

13 experience. Again, some of this is just coming

14 from the -- I guess, going on six years of

15 experience with the sites. We have to deal

16 with a site classification officer who is

17 designated by the site with coordination by

18 Greg Lewis, who pretty much tells us what we

19 can and cannot do and what the site specific

20 process it. That's just reflecting that. And

21 this, for those -- following the DOE site

22 classification officer will assist the team by
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1 providing guidance on how to submit notes for

2 review and when possible, how to present the

3 controlled information in a manner that allows

4 it to be unclassified or uncontrolled, which

5 I think is essentially --

6 MEMBER BEACH: So to keep it

7 consistent, if you get rid of the will and

8 just say assist, then it just describes what

9 they do.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. In terms of

11 the NIOSH site point of contact, I'm quickly

12 seeing whether there -- let me just read

13 through this and others can compare it with

14 PROC-010, but it should be close with maybe a

15 few minor additions.

16 The NIOSH site point of contact is

17 responsible for coordination with the Advisory

18 Board or SC&A depending on the situation and

19 the DOE site point of contact regarding

20 resources needed for initial site information

21 request and ensuring same is necessary with

22 the DOE headquarter's POC.
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1 I think what we're saying there

2 basically is the triumvirate when we go on3 site that we can ask, but DOE doesn't

4 necessarily provide unless NIOSH engages with

5 DOE and authorizes resources to respond.

6 So again, we're sensitive to the

7 issue of -- we can come up with data capture

8 plans and whatnot, but in all cases at the

9 sites, they're looking for an account number.

10 They're looking for a way to actually support

11 the requests and that takes resources. So that

12 coordination is reflected there.

13 DR. MAURO: Joe, I'm sorry to

14 interrupt. Is that a concurrent baselining or

15 is that a real time as we're interacting?

16 MR. FITZGERALD: No, that's a real

17 time. Greg Lewis and Gina oversee the EEOICPA

18 program and there's a budget for requests at

19 the sites. But that wires in the DFO and the

20 agency on the other side, meaning that we, as

21 contractors, can't enjoin an agency to spend

22 resources by ourselves.
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1 DR. MAURO: So there are

2 implications here in terms of -- the model I

3 had in my head is that once we are

4 independent, so to speak, in terms of our

5 interaction with the DOE point of contact and

6 we're workable and we identify -- let's say

7 we're now with the electronic database. I

8 remember there was a -- I forget the acronym

9 that was being used at Savannah River and we

10 identified documents and lists, things we'd

11 like to look at.

12 Now, all of those eventually, when

13 communicated to the DOE point of contact, had

14 cost implications for them that were not

15 anticipated.

16 At this point, does the process

17 stop until NIOSH point of contact is informed

18 of this data capture, these 30 or 40 boxes

19 that we'd like to get our hands on, and needs

20 to assure or make provisions for funding? The

21 DOE? I mean, I guess that's what I just heard.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: No, no. I think in
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1 practice, what happens is when we go initially

2 on-site and with all the data capture, that is

3 coordinated with DOE headquarters and the DFO

4 relative to NIOSH. That goes in Gina's shop.

5 DOE headquarters' program that has the

6 responsibility for the budget on the DOE side

7 has to work with the site and the site has to

8 have an account that they can charge against

9 all this.

10 Now, once you get beyond the

11 initial point, plus there's a major

12 perturbation, meaning that something major

13 comes up that the site cannot support. In

14 other words, they have a certain amount of

15 resources but that goes well beyond that. They

16 go back to Gina's shop, headquarters, and then

17 maybe headquarters gets a hold of Ted and says

18 SC&A is asking for the sun and the moon. We

19 don't have resources. We need some relief on

20 that.

21 DR. MAURO: So that's something

22 that -- while Kathy is interacting with her
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1 counterpart at DOE point of contact trying to

2 get the job done, if something unfolds in a

3 way that is clearly, oh my goodness, DOE will,

4 at that point, make it known we have problems?

5 MR. FITZGERALD: There's no

6 question. What happens is basically -- up

7 front, there's a sizing of the effort, meaning

8 that by virtue of the data capture, the amount

9 of work that we want to do at the site, the

10 site figures out what this is going to take.

11 There's an interaction we don't see between

12 the site and headquarters, DOE headquarters,

13 and that's when they figure out, okay, this is

14 what can happen.

15 We don't see that, nor would we

16 see anything come out of that unless something

17 comes up where it goes so long that we've

18 outstripped the resources they thought they

19 had there or we come up with something that is

20 not unexpected.

21 That's when I think Ted would get

22 the call. Otherwise, Ted would never get a
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1 call because I think the initial sizing of

2 this thing through the data capture and what

3 have you would give them a sense and they

4 would set things up at the site and everything

5 that goes along. It's within this sphere of

6 expectations.

7 We're on a roll here. This is it.

8 This is where we get into the role of the

9 NIOSH point of contacts that we discussed

10 earlier about baselining, that there would be

11 disclosure of all documents either collected

12 or being collected, classified or

13 unclassified, even if they're in the pipeline

14 so that when we come up with our data capture

15 request, it's going to reflect pretty much

16 what's been requested already.

17 MR. CALHOUN: I don't understand

18 that sentence completely because it says that

19 we confirm that our collection of documents in

20 the SRDB is complete.

21 They're never complete. I mean,

22 with Brookhaven, if there wasn't a funding
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1 issue right now, we are still collecting

2 documents, so I mean, we could certainly let

3 you know what the status is

4 MR. FITZGERALD: I think that's a

5 better word. That's good. We'll make that

6 change. I think, as I said, just a minute ago,

7 just looking for what is in fact, requested or

8 on hand -- that's all -- so that our request

9 coming on the heels of your request isn't

10 going to be seen by DOE as overlapping. There

11 might be some, but hopefully not very much.

12 The NIOSH site POC will provide

13 necessary coordination with DOE headquarters

14 and the DOE site POC, when resources require -

15 - we did discuss that. That would be when it

16 would be required.

17 We did put the notion that --

18 maybe it's going to be written a little

19 differently. This coordination would not

20 impeded routine interactions. In other words,

21 you wouldn't have to be -- I think this goes

22 to your comment, John. It wouldn't have to be
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1 for every request, like we want to interview

2 Joe Schmo. It wouldn't be at that level, need

3 to go back for resource check. I mean, this is

4 the macro resources, not the micro resources.

5 That's the intent there that we would still be

6 able to proceed on interactions at the site

7 while doing resource checks.

8 MEMBER BEACH: Joe, at the start of

9 that, are you going to go ahead and take the

10 will out again for NIOSH -- it says will

11 provide -- and just make it a POC --

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I think the

13 will is not appropriate for roles and

14 responsibilities, so all the wills would come

15 out throughout the roles and responsibilities.

16 MR. KATZ: Well, there are some

17 wills that were appropriate -- Don't take,

18 globally, wills out.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: We'll be very

20 careful on that.

21 To close out, NIOSH site POC is

22 responsible under OCAS PROC-011 for submitting
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1 final documents to DOE for review.

2 This would be that final loop

3 where we send something to PA review and

4 that's it. It goes -- because DOE doesn't want

5 any -- once it goes on the website, they want

6 the final, final, final. Nancy, are you still

7 on the phone?

8 MS. ADAMS: Yes, I am.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Is that correct? I

10 want to make sure. As far as what is put up on

11 the OCAS website, DOE reviews that as the

12 final pass for clearance purposes. That's

13 after PA review?

14 MS. ADAMS: Yes.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: And I guess, from

16 the standpoint of whose fingers touched it

17 last, I thought it went directly from --

18 people are shaking their head no, so maybe I

19 got that wrong -- directly from NIOSH to DOE

20 for that final review.

21 MS. ADAMS: No.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: So it comes back
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1 to us. Then it goes to -- okay.

2 MS. ADAMS: No, no. we are

3 requested to have a document PA reviewed. We

4 address the comments and then if there have

5 been changes from a previously cleared

6 document, then it has to go back for a final.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, I need to

8 change that then because --

9 DR. MAURO: That's important. So

10 there's a certain degree of discretion? What

11 I'm getting out of this is -- the document is

12 cleared by DOE?

13 MS. ADAMS: We have been sending

14 documents to DOE prior to PA review.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes.

16 MS. ADAMS: They clear them. We

17 send them to the Board of Restrictive

18 Documents.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes.

20 MS. ADAMS: Many of them, we send

21 to PA clearance at the same time. If there are

22 no changes in the document and nothing has
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1 been altered at all, we can simply send it

2 back as a PA-cleared document without going

3 through DOE again.

4 If there have been changes that

5 may affect classification -- and I can't

6 determine that -- so if there have been

7 changes in the text, then we have to send it

8 for another clearance from DOE before it can

9 be posted on the website.

10 DR. MAURO: That's what I mean by

11 degree of discretion and judgment. In other

12 words, there is a degree of judgement made by

13 the PA folks and yourself in terms of what are

14 the kinds of PA changes that might be made. 

15 Or if there's anything changed, does that

16 mean, nope, it's got to go back to DOE again?

17 MS. ADAMS: I defer to Joseph

18 Gerald for that. I run everything by him and

19 ask him whether it has to go back.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. DOE wants to

21 have the -- there's been some minor

22 exceptions. I tell them, well, you've deleted
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1 a proper name and put brackets saying deleted.

2 They said, no. We don't want to see that. But

3 they're looking for any content changes, any

4 rewording of sentences beyond simply dropping

5 formal names out and things like that.

6 So a PA review, if it's just,

7 typically, drops out formal names and it just

8 puts deleted or a blank. They don't care to

9 see that again.

10 DR. MAURO: But we let them know

11 that, though. They do want to know that. In

12 other words, it's not just a matter of --

13 MR. FITZGERALD: I call them up and

14 just tell them --

15 MR. CALHOUN: We get e-mail and we

16 say in between the initial draft that you've

17 cleared and the final that's approved --

18 signed off, done -- there have been no

19 technical changes made to the document.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

21 MR. CALHOUN: And they say, don't -

22 -
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1 MS. ADAMS: I need some guidance on

2 that. Again, I defer to Joe and I ask Joe

3 specifically about the one I just sent out,

4 whether I have to notify DOE and he had told

5 me no. So if I need to advise them --

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Those aren't

7 technical changes. They were just names being

8 dropped out.

9 MS. ADAMS: But no, it was just

10 numbers that we put redacted number.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

12 MS. ADAMS: The bottom line is, we

13 made changes. We didn't tell them and NIOSH is

14 saying that they do.

15 MR. CALHOUN: We just tell them

16 that -- we just say, hey, we've made no

17 technical changes to this document and we

18 don't think it needs to be reviewed. Is that

19 cool with you? And then we get something back

20 from them: an e-mail from Gina that says okay.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Why don't with we

22 hold that for PROC-011?
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1 MR. KATZ: Let me just say, on this

2 note, that I sent an e-mail to Gina just

3 yesterday, I believe, in anticipation of this

4 meeting and knowing that this was a concern of

5 John's that there are times where we do --

6 where there's an SC&A document and there's no

7 real technical changes made and it just goes

8 to PA review and just names were redacted and

9 maybe other information that's equivalent to

10 giving a name or could lead someone to a name.

11 So I posed the question to Gina

12 and I asked -- I actually didn't know OCAS's

13 procedure, but I actually proposed exactly

14 what I just heard from Grady to Gina. Would

15 that be adequate in those cases if you get

16 certification from SC&A that there have been

17 no changes other than that, would that be okay

18 to not have to send it back? So I haven't had

19 a response yet, but I just wanted to let you

20 know I did actually communicate that.

21 MR. CALHOUN: We asked that twice.

22 MR. KATZ: So we'll get feedback
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1 from Gina and I'll forward it -- 

2 MR. FITZGERALD: I think it was

3 the certification.

4 MR. CALHOUN: If they want a

5 written certification, we can do that. I think

6 that would be a good way to do it.

7 MR. KATZ: And then there's a role

8 for DFO -- I don't know if --

9 MR. FITZGERALD: I think we can

10 elaborate that without -- we talked about that

11 already without having to dwell on it. We can

12 just elaborate that description as we go.

13 MR. KATZ: Okay, I think that point

14 was already made.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: That the end of

16 the roles and responsibilities. Before we

17 break, I guess, does anyone --

18 MEMBER BEACH: So there's no

19 question on the NIOSH rule? I'm just curious.

20 MR. KATZ: So I have a question

21 with,-- actually, I had it and then I lost it

22 in this discussion, but this last sentence so
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1 is -- we just discussed it. It's coming out.

2 It's not correct. So that's all.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

4 MR. KATZ: I just wanted to make

5 sure we documented it.

6 MEMBER BEACH: So the last sentence

7 is coming out?

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. It's coming

9 out, right.

10 MEMBER BEACH: And I guess I'm

11 curious. We do have NIOSH in the room. Is

12 there any problems that you guys see?

13 MR. CALHOUN: I didn't see anything

14 that was different than what we had.

15 MR. KATZ: Grady would have

16 commented about the status versus SRDB being

17 complete.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: We can change

19 that, yes. And I think you were commenting

20 earlier that after the fact, you can provide

21 more specific -- the suggested changes,

22 including that one.
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1 MR. CALHOUN: Yes.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. I'm just

3 writing status. I'm not sure that will --

4 MR. KATZ: I will certainly, and I

5 guess everybody will provide you and Brad with

6 -- the whole working group -- each other and

7 you with any suggestions for particular copy

8 edits.

9 Okay, Brad, do you want to?

10 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Let's break.

11 MR. KATZ: Folks on the phone,

12 we're going to take a 10 minute break, so

13 we'll be starting up about half past 11 by my

14 watch.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 11:19 a.m. and

17 resumed at 11:33 a.m.)

18 MR. KATZ: Folks on the phone, this

19 is the Advisory Board on Radiation Worker

20 Health, the working group on developing

21 Board's security plan and we're starting back

22 up again.
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1 Someone on the phone, just let me

2 know if you can hear us?

3 MS. ADAMS: Yes. We hear you.

4 MR. KATZ: Thank you. I guess I

5 should check with two. Phil Schofield, did

6 you, per chance, join us again?

7 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: He's probably at

8 the airport.

9 MR. KATZ: No, he's going a little

10 later. He's going at 2.

11 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Let's just

12 continue.

13 MR. KATZ: Okay.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: All right. This is

15 Joe Fitzgerald again, SC&A.

16 We left off of what was section

17 4.0 on roles and responsibilities and we're

18 starting now into the actual procedures. That

19 was all a preface to the actual procedures

20 themselves.

21 As an approach, what we did was we

22 started with the PROC-010 procedures and
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1 amplified in some cases with what I would call

2 actual practice that we do on sites.

3 So some of this is more in the

4 vein of explaining what processes we follow

5 while on site, just to put it on paper. I

6 think it's good to do that. I think some of

7 this has been proceduralized, but some of it

8 has not. It has evolved over the last four or

9 five years and I think, memorializing, how we

10 do that is useful in this particular

11 procedure. So some of this is actually in

12 writing for the first time, as far as a set

13 procedure.

14 For the benefit of the folks on

15 the phone, I'm going to outline, but not

16 necessarily read, what's in these procedures.

17 The first point in the procedures is 5.1,

18 which is the process of requesting

19 information. I believe this is a verbatim

20 repeat of what was in PROC-010, but during the

21 site profile development and review in support

22 of DOSHA reconstruction or through SEC
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1 petition evaluations, additional information

2 from DOE is generally necessary to address the

3 scientific issues related to estimation of

4 radiation dose.

5 In these instances, it's necessary

6 for the Advisory Board or its technical

7 support contractor to formally request the

8 additional information from DOE.

9 Before a request is submitted,

10 what we do is the respective POCs, the

11 Advisory Board, and SC&A in this case, are

12 responsible for checking the site research

13 databases -- the O: drive, I think some of you

14 have heard about.

15 Again, this is part of the

16 baselining of the process and making sure that

17 as we put our request together, that we're

18 reflecting what's available through that

19 means. We also list OSTI, which has a number

20 of DOE holdings as well. That's, again, a

21 preface for the specific procedures.

22 Initial contact, in terms of
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1 process -- what we're talking about, is the --

2 and I'm going to just say SC&A just as

3 shorthand. We had Advisory Board and/or the

4 TSC, technical support contractor. I'm just

5 going to SC&A just to keep it simpler.

6 SC&A shall notify the

7 corresponding DOE site POC and headquarters

8 POC of intent to conduct data retrieval, on

9 site interviews, and writing. As Emily pointed

10 out and as seconded by the DFO, this would be

11 copied to DFO, in terms of that initial

12 request.

13 The SC&A will open a dialogue with

14 DOE headquarters. I think that's been the way

15 it's been going on. We coordinate with Greg

16 Lewis, who has been a POC for that part of HSS

17 and DOE headquarters, when we're getting ready

18 to make a request at a site. But we want to

19 inform them in an introductory way of the

20 nature of the information that we're looking

21 for, the types of individuals -- health

22 physicists, managers, workers, former workers
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1 -- who we want to interview, and how that

2 relates to on-going requests by NIOSH.

3 The notion there is we're

4 coordinating with the NIOSH POC in terms of

5 how to make the most effective and efficient

6 request of DOE in terms of information at the

7 site.

8 What we find out from the site is

9 what the records database and systems are

10 like, how they keep their information and how

11 we access that in the most effective way.

12 Usually we get a point of contact identified

13 for that purpose and we typically identify key

14 word searches and we're told how those key

15 word searches would be handled. We would

16 obviously baseline, as we indicated before,

17 with any other request that NIOSH has

18 conducted in the past.

19 So all of this is going on as

20 preparatory to coming up with what we would

21 call a site data capture plan, meaning what

22 we're going to actually request, what key word
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1 searches we're going to do, and what

2 individuals, both on and off site, we would

3 want to -- who we would want to interview --

4 so that would all be preparatory to that.

5 We would coordinate those requests

6 with the NIOSH POC. We would want a disclosure

7 of what's been collected, a status of what's

8 on the O: drive perhaps and a status of,

9 perhaps documents requested but not yet

10 received. We're calling that baseline, but I

11 think that's become familiar enough.

12 In turn, and this is a two way

13 street, if we happen to have documents already

14 and documents that we would collect and

15 process, we would disclose those to the NIOSH

16 POC as well. So it's a two way street as we go

17 along.

18 Again, the purpose of this initial

19 contact is to give the appropriate parties at

20 DOE advance notice, to make sure the NIOSH POC

21 knows what we're doing, the DFO is aware of

22 plans, and to just start the coordination
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1 process through headquarters to the site in

2 terms of their responding to requests and

3 having the resources to do so.

4 So that is more or less the kick5 off. One key thing that would be part of that

6 is simply -- a key part of this also, and this

7 is one that has been emphasized in the past,

8 is to clarify for the site how we play into

9 the picture -- that we're reviewing

10 documentation for the purposes of evaluating

11 a site profile or perhaps an evaluation report

12 for an SEC -- just so they know who we are,

13 what we're doing, and what the context of the

14 visit is. So that's the advance process for

15 visiting a site and doing initial contact.

16 As far as a formal request -- this

17 is all preparatory for a formal request. We

18 would prepare and submit a request letter and

19 that letter essentially identifies what we're

20 doing, who we are, the time frame, the scope

21 of the request, and everything that we kind of

22 learned from the initial interaction and have
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1 established as far as status with NIOSH, we

2 kind of reflect in this letter.

3 This is really the vehicle which

4 DOE would use to establish what the site would

5 need to do to respond and the level resources

6 for that response.

7 This site data capture plan would

8 be provided prior to even going on site. That

9 would be sort of the going in game plan for

10 the visit and would be the basis for the site

11 to decide how they could best respond, how

12 they would make arrangements.

13 That piece is a pretty important

14 piece. It corresponds with pretty much NIOSH

15 and ORAU practice. We have started submitting

16 these site data capture plans starting, I

17 think, with Mound. Maybe with a couple of

18 other sites. This is a process that has

19 evolved.

20 We did not do it as formally as

21 that prior to the middle of last year, but I

22 think that since the middle of last year,
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1 we've gone through that process and it has

2 helped, I think, to communicate the scope of

3 what we're doing for all the parties

4 concerned. I think that's turned out to be a

5 pretty good thing.

6 MEMBER PRESLEY: Joe, I have a

7 comment on this. Nowhere in this particular

8 item do I read that HHS/CDC gets a copy of

9 this plan prior to whenever it goes to the

10 site.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

12 MEMBER PRESLEY: Would that not be

13 applicable for --

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, in practice,

15 we are -- in fact, we run the plan right now

16 by the POC pretty much to confirm that what

17 we're requesting isn't necessarily something

18 that's already been requested. So I think

19 that's a good point.

20 MR. KATZ: That's the NIOSH POC.

21 So the other addition would be that you'd copy

22 me before or in the process of submitting the
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1 formal request, not before? It doesn't need to

2 be a prerequisite?

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. The first

4 part is where, I think, we interact up front

5 to try to make sure that there isn't

6 duplication and to make sure that all the

7 parties understand the scope.

8 This part is where we have taken

9 all that preparation and reflected in its

10 survey starting point document that is the

11 data capture plan. That would be, in our

12 estimation, something that everybody would

13 have a copy of. I mean, you would have a copy.

14 NIOSH would have a copy. The DOE would

15 obviously have a copy, and that would be the

16 starting point for the on site interactions.

17 So beyond that point, we would be

18 day to day. But at that point, that's pretty

19 much the understood proposition that we're

20 going on site with. So I agree. I think we can

21 make that explicit that that data capture plan

22 would be something that both agencies would
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1 have, the Board would have, and we would use

2 as the starting point.

3 MEMBER PRESLEY: Somebody would

4 have the last --

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Kathy? Do you have

6 a comment?

7 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes. I think

8 that we're going to have to do with the data

9 capture plan is to make it a two step process

10 because if I wait to give them the key words -

11 - the authors -- until I've chosen the

12 documents, it's after the fact. So we're going

13 to have to break it up into actually two data

14 requests.

15 DR. MAKHIJANI: I didn't get that,

16 Kathy.

17 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay, right

18 now, when you make a data request, it includes

19 who you want to interview, what key words you

20 want searched, what authors you want searched,

21 what databases you want searched, and the

22 records that you want retrieved.
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1 In practice, that document gets

2 provided at the end. However, the key words

3 and the authors have to be provided before you

4 select the document.

5 So what I'm saying is that it's

6 probably going to be two data capture plans --

7 one for the front end work and one for the

8 back end work.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Just to

10 reiterate, to identify the documents that

11 would be listed as ones we would want them to

12 retrieve, we almost have to do a search to

13 find out what they are.

14 So the first part, which I think

15 is more under preparatory and we can maybe

16 make that a little clearer in that preparatory

17 stage, we would look at what's been collected

18 and based on what's been collected -- we

19 actually have access to -- am I right, Kathy -

20 - to key word searches that have been done by

21 NIOSH or no?

22 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: We have
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1 requested them. We don't have access to them

2 in all cases.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. In some

4 cases, we've been asking before we run our key

5 word search, can you tell us what key words

6 you use and maybe if there's one that you

7 haven't used, we would use them.

8 But it's kind of an organic

9 process in the beginning to figure out what

10 key words to use. I think that's more of the

11 preparatory stage. Unless we actually

12 establish that these are the documents that

13 we're requesting -- the scope of the documents

14 were requested -- that would be in the site

15 data capture. So it would be a two phase

16 process, but I think that first part really

17 isn't the plan so much as part of the

18 preparation for the plan.

19 MEMBER PRESLEY: There needs to be

20 something in there to work back and forth that

21 says you will work with NIOSH on this first

22 thing to make sure that you all are not doing
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1 the same thing twice.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. We'd

3 emphasize that throughout, that the intent is

4 not to have -- put DOE in double jeopardy as

5 far as having dual requests.

6 Kathy, just to confirm, if I put

7 that initial phase of key word searches that

8 need to be done as part of the preparatory

9 stage and indicate that the results of that

10 search will be reflected in the formal data

11 capture plan that everybody would get, would

12 that take care of the issue you're talking

13 about?

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I think so.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

16 MEMBER PRESLEY: You know, down at

17 the bottom where you have -- is it J down here

18 on the explanation of that for the one up

19 there?

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

21 MEMBER PRESLEY: That thing's

22 pretty much to that.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I mean, the

2 idea in the preparatory stage is for everybody

3 to compare notes to make sure that DOE is

4 getting a non-duplicative request to the

5 extent possible and that we're benefitting

6 from whatever has been done before. That's the

7 first stage.

8 The second stage is reflecting

9 what we see as the scope of the request that

10 DOE would be asked to respond to. That's where

11 resources come into, that's where we would

12 need to make sure everybody was aware of this

13 plan -- sort of like making sausage. We don't

14 want to get you involved in the process, but

15 you want to see the results so that you know

16 what the resource implications will be and DOE

17 is fully aware of it as well so everybody is

18 on board.

19 So the notion here would be the

20 plan would be made available before we would

21 go on site and everybody -- and we might go on

22 site to just kind of figure out who's who and
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1 sort of setting things up. But as far as the

2 actual getting the documents in our hands and

3 doing interviews, we want to have that plan

4 ahead of that point and everybody would have

5 that plan.

6 That would be a chance to raise a

7 hand and say well, we have that document.

8 Somehow in the process you weren't aware of

9 that we have that document and cross it off,

10 not send that in.

11 MR. KATZ: So probably in both of

12 these, you want to reflect that you are

13 communicating the formal request to the DFO?

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

15 MR. KATZ: And also to the Advisory

16 Board contact, as well as the initial sort of

17 investigatory visit at the DOE site.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: They'll probably

19 want to incorporate that into this.

20 DR. MAURO: Joe, one of the things

21 that we do is log books. See this? This is

22 invaluable. Who does that bring this up vis a
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1 vis? The process really is a continuum, that

2 is the prep work evolves slowly, maturely, and

3 at some point, the process -- I think we're at

4 the point where we are ready to submit our

5 formal request.

6 In other words, we've reached the

7 critical mass. We understand. We can put it

8 out. It's a milestone. But the process just

9 keeps grinding along.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, it keeps

11 going.

12 DR. MAURO: And this continual

13 communication and I think that it's important

14 that everyone, when they're involved with such

15 a process, keep a daily log of communications,

16 coordinations, who we spoke to. It doesn't

17 have to be lengthy.

18 And then of course, at some point,

19 the outcome of this would be some official

20 document that's distributed.

21 But those logbooks, in my mind,

22 become really the record of the program. This
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1 is almost like each person working on the

2 project -- when they make phone calls, when

3 they receive phone calls -- I know I try to

4 keep in the habit of doing that.

5 I agree that this doesn't have to

6 be in this procedure. But I would just like to

7 alert everyone this is good practice.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, anyway, I

9 think in a sort of a overview -- certainly, on

10 the preparatory part of this thing, there may

11 be an investigatory trip, an initial

12 arrangements trip, certain interactions with

13 all the parties involved just to get to the

14 point, including key word searches, get to the

15 point where you have a snapshot.

16 DR. MAURO: I think that's a good

17 point -- a snapshot of what we see as the

18 scope of the request and what we need from

19 DOE. That snapshot, at that point would be

20 delivered -- everybody would have a copy.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: I don't disagree.

22 I think as we get on site and as we do
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1 interviews and take documents -- no question

2 there's going to be additional documents that

3 will come up and we may be looking at a box

4 and the document we're looking for might lead

5 us to something more relevant.

6 I think, as I said earlier, the

7 notion there -- that's not going to change the

8 scope dramatically for DOE. If it does, then

9 we need to work with DOE and the DFO. But if

10 we find additional documents, then we do

11 acquire them and go through the security

12 process, of course, but would then -- if NIOSH

13 doesn't have it -- we would make it available.

14 I think that keeps going as we

15 come up with new issues, new avenues of

16 inquiry, we might actually go back and do two

17 or three rounds of document review. That's

18 been the practice and as long as we stay

19 within this broad scope of the expectation of

20 the site resources they have, that hasn't been

21 a problem.

22 But the Rocky Flats and other
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1 sites, I think DOE does come back after awhile

2 and if there's resource questions or some

3 other issues, certainly they'll come back to

4 the DFO and we hear about it. But I think that

5 feedback has been working pretty well.

6 Just moving on, then, on the

7 submittal of the formal request, I think we

8 talked about large request necessitating

9 coordination between the Advisory Board and,

10 I think this is another place where DFO would

11 need to be reflected as a co-party on that.

12 We do acknowledge that in terms of

13 on-site reviews -- we say typically by Q14 cleared individual -- I think it's turned out

15 because of the uncertainty at most of the

16 sites, we do use Q-cleared personnel to do the

17 records retrieval.

18 But at other sites, we use some

19 discretion when it's pretty much a non20 classified site. But we treat all documents

21 collected as if they might be classified.

22 I raise that because I think
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1 that's a little bit of a gray area in the

2 sense that if there's a potential for some of

3 this to be inadvertently classified, not

4 labeled, and we use unclassified people, that

5 presents another issue, but so far it's been

6 handled fairly well. With weapons and

7 sensitive sites, we've used Q-cleared people.

8 At AWEs and sites that aren't sensitive, we

9 have used non-cleared people. Again, I think

10 that's what that means.

11 I think that's pretty much it on

12 the submittal of the formal requests. I don't

13 know. Are there any questions on -- I think we

14 went through the first two pieces, the

15 preparatory piece, initial contact, and the

16 submittal of the site data capture plan.

17 MR. KATZ: If there are no

18 questions from the Board, I just note that --

19 I didn't want to interrupt the start of this,

20 but I think you need a step before all of this

21 requesting information, very brief and easy,

22 but about the assignment of SC&A point of
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1 contact and informing the DFO of who that is

2 so that that communication can be made to DOE

3 and so on and to the Board.

4 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: For the initial

5 contact?

6 MR. KATZ: Yes. So the very

7 beginning, before requesting information -- I

8 mean, the first step in this process is SC&A

9 establishing who its point of contact is for

10 a site.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, moving on to

12 actual site access, the two other pieces for

13 preparing for the site visit and then the

14 submittal of the plan to retrieve information

15 -- this one would be the actual process on

16 site.

17 I think this probably parallels

18 some of the process, if not a lot of the

19 process in PROC-010, but a law that's pretty

20 common sense and would establish the time

21 frame, make sure that that works with the site

22 -- who's the individuals involved in terms of
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1 names, clearance status, and whatnot.

2 If there's any Board members, that

3 would be included. So it's just really so they

4 need who would be involved with the site

5 visit.

6 Site badging and training --

7 clearly the coordination of what's necessary

8 logistically to have the people operate at the

9 site in terms of the badging requirements or

10 training requirements.

11 Any questions on some of that? I

12 guess I would consider that the certain

13 logistics of getting on site.

14 Moving on to 5.3, which is the

15 actual data review. I think the steps in PROC16 010 were pretty straightforward. I think we

17 reiterated that and made a few minor changes.

18 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry. Let me just

19 go back a second. I just have one question

20 because this is a difference between OCAS. I

21 didn't know whether it's necessary or not, but

22 OCAS cites particular forms that they use DOE
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1 for 5631.2 and so on. You don't address that.

2 It's for participating individuals. You'll see

3 OCAS has this --

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

5 MR. KATZ: You must be familiar

6 with the form probably since you work in that

7 milieu.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

9 MR. KATZ: But is that necessary to

10 be cited here?

11 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm going to --

12 what's that? A lifeline. Kathy? The question

13 was, there was a reference in here to a DOE

14 form 5631.20, which is a request for a visit

15 or access approval, which is cited in PROC-010

16 as being required to be completed prior to

17 site visiting.

18 We don't mention it explicitly in

19 here. Would there be a reason for that or is

20 it just --

21 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, access

22 to each site is dependant upon what
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1 information is going to be accessed. So we've

2 been doing it independently with the sites.

3 For example, when we need Q4 cleared people and whether they need to verify

5 clearance, whether we need to --

6 MR. KATZ: Kathy, this is Ted. The

7 OCAS procedure just says when necessary -- I

8 think this sort of takes into account what you

9 were just saying. It says when necessary, the

10 NIOSH site POC will provide this forum.

11 So all I'd suggest is OCAS says

12 that and if it's not a problem to have it in

13 here, since DOE is happy with the OCAS

14 procedure, that just might buy you something,

15 unless there's some reason not to have it.

16 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes, I think

17 we'd have to go back and look at it and see if

18 it's going to meet the need of the site.

19 I know that some of the forms

20 mentioned in PROC-010, we intentionally did

21 not implement because we have other ways of

22 doing it.
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1 MR. KATZ: Okay, but this gives you

2 the caveat --

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I'll have to

4 go back and look at it because --

5 MR. KATZ: Kathy, you need the

6 caveat. It's when necessary, so it wouldn't

7 ever come into effect if it weren't necessary.

8 I'm not sure it gets you into any trouble. I

9 think it just avoids the situation if DOE

10 wants this actually cited as a procedure and

11 you don't have it in here, it goes to the

12 Board.

13 I'm just trying to avoid the

14 possibility that DOE will be unhappy with the

15 Board what the Board approves and then we'll

16 have to have a whole other round before we get

17 things up and running.

18 DR. MAURO: Kathy, this is John.

19 This difference that exists between different

20 sites, some of them wanting the form and some

21 of them not wanting the form -- could you tell

22 me a little bit about the role this form plays
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1 and why is it that some sites feel it's not

2 necessary and others feel it is?

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, we've

4 never used the 10 form. It's always been

5 saying, we need your -- the names of the

6 people who are coming, their Social Security

7 numbers, their birthdates, their citizenship,

8 et cetera.

9 It kind of depends upon the sites

10 and there's an interaction here between me and

11 DOE in that if during the preparatory process,

12 we discover that we are going to be pulling

13 classified documents that require signets,

14 then we're going to have to go through the

15 process of getting signets before we can look

16 at those.

17 DR. MAURO: Is that when the form

18 is triggered?

19 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Like I said,

20 we haven't used --

21 DR. MAURO: So it's never really --

22 so apparently, our interactions at the site --
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1 whether it's classified or not classified

2 interactions -- we've been moving through a

3 process without the form nevertheless, but

4 NIOSH has a form. So there is a difference

5 here besides the --

6 MR. KATZ: It's a DOE form.

7 MR. CALHOUN: I don't recall being

8 asked for it either. It's just one of those

9 things, I believe, we probably pulled from the

10 DOE security policy and they said when

11 necessary, so we said when necessary.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: And it may be very

13 possible that they're filling it out based on

14 the information that we're providing.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: Headquarters is the

16 one that negotiated with us on our documents

17 and so what their field and sites do are most

18 generally different things.

19 DR. MAURO: Put it in.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I don't see

21 any --

22 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Just with the
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1 caveat of when necessary.

2 MR. KATZ: It's just -- You can

3 just verbatim take it from the OCAS because

4 that's the way they do it.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, and it sounds

6 like in practice, it doesn't sound like NIOSH

7 or OCAS is doing anything too differently.

8 They're still doing the same thing dealing

9 with sites and giving the information they

10 need.

11 MS. HOWELL: Can I interject before

12 we move on? At least in the establishing date

13 and participating individuals category, you

14 probably should add some DFO language to those

15 two as well because especially if we have

16 Board members in attendance for any meetings,

17 we have to be careful about that sort of thing

18 as well.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Is it possible --

20 I guess, in terms of format -- I don't

21 disagree. In fact, I think we're going to say

22 it in a number of places, but this gets back
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1 to maybe the roles and responsibilities for

2 DFO listed up front -- if we could capture --

3 MS. HOWELL: Put it up there.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Put it up there

5 and -- otherwise then we'd be repeating it and

6 every milestone, when I think if we can just

7 indicate the milestones up front, when we're

8 going on site because the date the individuals

9 -- all of that should be something you all

10 know about -- who, when, and I think I'd like

11 to play with that a little.

12 I think in the DFO roles and

13 responsibilities, I think we can lay that out

14 up-front as an exception, a requirement that

15 that would happen on the milestones. So I like

16 the idea of the milestones. We can stipulate

17 that and that seems satisfactory then.

18 MS. HOWELL: Yes. I mean, we can

19 look at another version of this where you

20 intended to do it as long as it's somehow in

21 there and it's not going to be confusing if

22 somebody else were to try to apply this
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1 policy.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

3 MS. HOWELL: That's fine.

4 MEMBER BEACH: Have we talked about

5 the site badging and training? I have a

6 question on that. We haven't got to that yet.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, no,

8 actually, it's part of this paragraph here.

9 MEMBER BEACH: Well, one of the

10 things I was looking at is it says under that,

11 site badging and training DOE site POC will

12 coordinate with headquarters. It talks about

13 the appropriate badging, but Nowhere in our

14 first section does it talk about badging. I

15 was just curious if we needed to add that?

16 In DOE point of contact, it talks

17 about the sigmas under the headquarters point

18 of contact, but neither one of those sections

19 talks about that again. It talks about

20 training.

21 I just wondered if we needed to

22 add that in the DOE point of contact?
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Roles and

2 responsibilities?

3 MEMBER BEACH: Just something to

4 look at, Joe, at some point.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: That's kind of --

6 headquarters has a role relative to badging

7 where they submit the sigmas to the site and

8 the site actually handles our badging

9 directly.

10 So there's a bit of a handoff from

11 headquarters, but really the site typically

12 handles the actual badging.

13 MEMBER BEACH: Right. Badging is

14 just not mentioned in either one of those two

15 roles.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Yes, it

17 certainly is a role to arrange for the

18 badging.

19 MEMBER BEACH: I thought that

20 needed to be added somewhere.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, we have

22 sigmas under DOE headquarters, which I think
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1 is appropriate, but the coordination of the

2 badging is something that headquarters would -

3 -

4 MEMBER BEACH: It kind of falls

5 under the site.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, yes, but the

7 coordination starts at headquarters.

8 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: It starts at

9 headquarters because they're the ones that

10 have to initiate like you guys are Q'd, so --

11 MEMBER BEACH: Right. I just

12 thought it bore mentioning in there somewhere.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I think it

14 would be helpful to clarify that and also to

15 point out that there's a handoff that goes to

16 the local level to do the actual badging.

17 And that has been an issue on

18 occasion because if that doesn't work, you

19 don't get the appropriate level of sigmas that

20 enable you to get the information that you're

21 looking for. So the site will not do it unless

22 they get the authorization from headquarters.
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1 So that has to work right.

2 DR. MAURO: Is there a -- prior to

3 making the visit, it sounds like this is a

4 critical path. That is, you don't want to show

5 up at a site and find out the badging hasn't

6 been issued.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, no. You won't

8 go very far.

9 DR. MAURO: So is there a step in

10 the process where before everyone takes off,

11 that there's confirmation that all of the

12 necessary paperwork is in place so that we can

13 leave now?

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I mean,

15 that's part of the pre-arrangements for a site

16 visit. You have to get clearance from the

17 site. That's one of the very first things that

18 the site wants to understand is the level of

19 clearance for the individuals you're

20 proposing. They want to know their names,

21 Social Security number, what you want to look

22 at, because that determines access
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1 requirements and sigmas.

2 That has to be pre-approved by a

3 sponsoring part of DOE headquarters that owns

4 that facility. So if it's like Pantex, the

5 NNSA has to give -- it's not HSS. The NNSA has

6 to give approval that you can have access to

7 that level of information.

8 DR. MAURO: And that flows from DOE

9 headquarters to the site to our point of

10 contact before your trip is made?

11 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: There is usually

12 a courtesy copy to the site, a courtesy copy

13 to SC&A's point of contact, of these people,

14 and so forth, from what I've seen. Savannah

15 River is an example. Also Pantex and so forth.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. Kathy, does

17 that ring true? All right, well, that's my

18 understanding and really, the only time we'd

19 have issues with that linkage is when the

20 headquarters doesn't pre-approve to the site,

21 which could really be a problem. So that's a

22 major step.
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1 Anymore questions on the first two

2 sections?

3 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: John, just to

4 iterate on what you said. Before we can -- I

5 know Pantex was one. Before we could even go

6 to the site and stuff, there was a letter from

7 DOE headquarters assuring that these people --

8 and there was a list of everybody -- had

9 access, that everything was set up and that up

10 they would be taken care of by Pantex security

11 and blah, blah, blah.

12 DR. MAURO: So when you show up at

13 the door and you have that piece of paper,

14 they let you in?

15 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: They already

16 have it, yes. I believe it was -- Robin was

17 her name. She was one contact and so forth.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: But to elaborate a

19 little further and we can get into this with

20 the PROC-011 discussion, those connections are

21 very critical because we have arrived on site

22 to find that the point of contact for the DOE
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1 site hasn't engaged the Security side of that

2 site to the degree that arrangements have been

3 pre-arranged for us.

4 So even though we had the

5 clearances, the badging, we still couldn't get

6 to the classified documentation. So there's a

7 number of connections that have to be made to

8 make that work. It's not an easy process to

9 make sure they're all aligned. They all have

10 to be aligned in order to have access and

11 that's the classified information.

12 That was site access or Advisory

13 Board members. Moving on to data review itself

14 -- the first item is site classification, an

15 overview and introduction.

16 Again, I think we even touched

17 upon that already that SC&A will meet with the

18 site classification office or officer for a

19 brief overview of site sensitivities.

20 This is akin to something we've

21 been doing of late in a more formal way, which

22 is to make sure we understand the boundary
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1 conditions for what would be sensitive and not

2 sensitive and to give some guidance from the

3 local security office if not headquarters on

4 how to handle a particular site. Of course,

5 we've done that in more detail with Pantex and

6 more recent sites.

7 Also, it gives us some feel for

8 how to do key word searches and sensitivities

9 that might be attended to that.

10 In terms of retrieval information,

11 the DOE site folks will coordinate with their

12 records people -- usually, sort of a left

13 hand, right hand, the site POC will work with

14 the records people to provide a means to do

15 the searches, to get the documents, to have

16 places to look through the documents and

17 whatnot. I think that's pretty similar to what

18 NIOSH is experiencing. They have the same

19 words.

20 Communication of the information -

21 - we will coordinate and communicate with the

22 Advisory Board.
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1 MR. KATZ: Can I make a suggestion.

2 I know where this came from and it's a little

3 bit -- it's just a little bit bungled here.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

5 MR. KATZ: OCAS has this same

6 provision here and it's really for the OCAS

7 lead to be communicating with the team that

8 does the data capture for OCAS.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

10 MR. KATZ: And I think you just

11 want -- the analogous situation here is that

12 it copies the POC, then it's coordination with

13 whoever else would be working with working

14 with --

15 MR. FITZGERALD: On the team.

16 MR. KATZ: Yes, yes.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. We'll re18 word that. Okay, thank you for that.

19 MR. KATZ: Sure.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: The next one is

21 documentation of the review. Here, I think, we

22 might get into a question of form. We have the
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1 same words, but we do not cite the OCAS form

2 03 tracking of the log sheet.

3 I think the notion there is not

4 that we don't think that logging the contents

5 of a box aren't important, but from our

6 standpoint in our sampling review -- we're

7 doing a sampling review. We're going after

8 specific pieces of documents -- maybe one

9 document in a box that would inform our review

10 -- so we're not looking at the other

11 documents.

12 So from a resource standpoint, we

13 would take a copy of that document, but would

14 not go through and inventory the entire box if

15 we didn't think it was relevant.

16 So I think in the original PROC17 010, the notion was that it's a good idea. I

18 think it's a good idea in terms of data

19 capture as a baseline. I think I could argue

20 the other way if we're doing a sampling review

21 with a relatively short period of time and

22 doing sort of a QA check. It would be pretty
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1 burdensome if we had to inventory the entire

2 box if we're after one piece of paper.

3 So that's the reason we did not

4 mirror, I think, PROC-010 in that regard --

5 that the practice we're going through right

6 now would be to retrieve the document of

7 interest and to capture that, but not to

8 inventory --

9 MR. CALHOUN: Yes. You don't record

10 what you didn't capture or what you didn't

11 review.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, and I think

13 that's kind of where we're at right now. If we

14 do see items in the rest of the box that are

15 of interest, we would go ahead and capture

16 them, but again, we wouldn't log in the rest

17 of the stuff.

18 MR. CALHOUN: As long as we can go

19 back and see what box you captured the

20 document you captured from, I think --

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, and that's

22 kind of what we would do. We would record the
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1 box number, what we took out of that box and

2 that would be pretty much what we would have.

3 MR. KATZ: You may want to -- I

4 mean, I don't know if you're leaving it as

5 this -- the reviewer will fill out or an

6 equivalent form. You have it as that right

7 now, right? They are actually filling out that

8 or an equivalent form.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I was talking

10 about the log sheet.

11 MR. KATZ: Maybe -- talking about

12 14?

13 MR. FITZGERALD: The one before

14 that.

15 MR. KATZ: Oh, I see. I'm on the

16 next one.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: It actually leaves

18 out the form 003 log sheet. I just had to

19 explain why that was left out. The next one,

20 you're talking about?

21 MR. KATZ: Yes.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: We've seen,
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1 certainly, a corollary reason to fill out that

2 form. I have filled out many, many of those

3 forms at Mound and I think it's a good thing

4 to do. I think it basically identifies the

5 document and provides a summary that would go

6 in the file. That's what we would do.

7 DR. MAURO: Joe, is there any

8 benefit to having a foot note on 5.3.1.4

9 explaining what you -- because that's

10 important because the people who are doing

11 this work -- now, certainly, Kathy is aware of

12 it -- but to know that in this particular

13 instance, it's not necessary to fill in form

14 3.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

16 DR. MAURO: I wouldn't want anyone

17 to think that maybe that was an oversight. I

18 don't know if -- I'll leave it up to you

19 whether you think a footnote -- not necessary

20 to fill in form 3. The Board and its

21 contractor did not require the filling of Form

22 3. MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think
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1 mention here is that either it's that specific

2 form or it's the same information so I'm not

3 sure.

4 What I would kind of default to

5 just filling out the form -- because I've

6 filled out the form. I think it's fine. But

7 this is, I think, a necessary prelude to

8 putting it up on the O: drive.

9 DR. MAURO: I don't want to leave

10 our people with the --

11 MR. FITZGERALD: You mean the log

12 sheet?

13 DR. MAURO: I went back. I went

14 back. That's why I said three. Just to let

15 people know that this is something where we

16 are parting ways. There was no need for us to

17 do this unlike NIOSH that does have to do

18 this.

19 MR. CALHOUN: It helps us out.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: We can put a foot

21 note or something like that, a parenthetical

22 thing why.
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1 MEMBER BEACH: So we are aware

2 there's a form, but not necessarily --

3 DR. MAURO: We don't have to fill

4 this one out.

5 MR. CALHOUN: Yes, because we can

6 look back that form and say, oh, this was in

7 this box. We didn't capture it. Let's go look.

8 And you guys don't have to --

9 DR. MAURO: We don't have to do

10 that. Right.

11 MR. KATZ: Okay. For the next

12 step, what I was saying for documentation, for

13 capture and coding, for that form, I was just

14 going to suggest you actually just as OCAS

15 did, add an appendix to this so that you

16 complete procedure. You said you're going to

17 leave it. I would just add this in the

18 appendix. It's just useful to have that whole

19 procedure with all its bits and pieces

20 together.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, and the

22 intent there, again, is uniform entry to the
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1 site research database, so whatever makes or

2 enables that, certainly we would want to do

3 that.

4 Next one, classification review of

5 identified information -- once the information

6 to be captured has been identified, the DOE

7 site folks would coordinate with the site

8 classification officer to review the

9 information by necessary security markings.

10 As necessary, each document data

11 set for it is captured, so we know that we're

12 dealing with classified documents. We shift to

13 fielding unclassified documents. We shift

14 directly to SC&A. I think that's pretty much

15 a mirror.

16 MEMBER PRESLEY: Can I -- are we

17 through with that section?

18 MR. FITZGERALD: No.

19 MEMBER PRESLEY: Before we go

20 forward, I would like to back up to 5.3.1.1,

21 please.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.
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1 MEMBER PRESLEY: In your initial

2 thing -- I'll let you go through this because

3 I don't see it anywhere -- it says that the

4 Advisory Board point of contact or their TSC

5 designee will meet with the NNSA/DOE site

6 classification office.

7 I would like that the contractor

8 classification office be added to that. I'll

9 tell you why. A lot of times, your site

10 classification office, your DOE -- and Joe, I

11 think, will back me up on this --that your

12 people that are your contractor office are the

13 people that know more about the documents.

14 They know where they might be found. They know

15 the different names, a whole lot more than

16 NNSA/DOE contract classification officer will.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

18 MEMBER PRESLEY: And they certainly

19 will know a lot of times more than that person

20 who's working in your document accountability

21 group that knows how to put a box on a shelf,

22 but he or she doesn't know what's in that box.
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1 So it might be to everybody's

2 advantage if they work also with site

3 contractor there.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I think what

5 we could do is just say NNSA/DOE/contractor.

6 Depending on the site, you would go down

7 through that hierarchy and -- I agree. I mean,

8 it would be useful to talk to the contractor

9 or laboratory.

10 MEMBER PRESLEY: As you know, it's

11 a whole lot easier to talk to the staff

12 classification officer than it is to the one

13 over at DOE.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, yes. In fact,

15 that's who we interacted with when we were at

16 Y12 last month.

17 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: We still have to

18 go through DOE.

19 MEMBER PRESLEY: Right. You still

20 have to do it. It's still a chain of command.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: That's why I say -

22 - I sort of put the chain of command down. I
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1 just added slash contractor because to get to

2 the contractor, we had to touch those bases

3 anyway.

4 But I agree. I think the

5 contractor should be listed after a hashmark,

6 as another -- Actually, as the end point.

7 Thank you, Bob. And we had very good support

8 from the contractor security guy at Y12.

9 5.4. on data capture -- now, this

10 gets to be more explanatory of practice and

11 just bear with me here. This gets into a

12 little more detail because we wanted to

13 memorialize how we were doing things. This is

14 an area where comments are welcome, of course.

15 This is what we're doing.

16 Site data capture -- some

17 coordination between the Advisory Board POC --

18 in this case, it's SC&A -- and the DOE site

19 POC is necessary as is advanced coordination

20 with NIOSH. This is, again, data capture.

21 As with the initial request, there

22 are two basic methods for which the review
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1 data can be captured. First is that DOE

2 provides either a hard copy of the

3 appropriately marked information and SC&A

4 scans or captures that information.

5 The second is that the site itself

6 -- this is the DOE site personnel -- scan the

7 information and provide an electronic copy.

8 This is where I had said earlier that there's

9 an issue of how we go about doing that. This

10 lays out the options.

11 Where scanning equipment and/or

12 resources are not available to the Advisory

13 Board SC&A -- and again, that's if in fact we

14 don't have capabilities -- documents would be

15 forwarded to either NIOSH or DOE Depending on

16 who might be able to scan those.

17 With Larry's comment, I guess we

18 could indicate that if we weren't able to do

19 it locally, we could forward hard copies to

20 NIOSH.

21 I think the number of documents

22 would be, hopefully, smaller than one would
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1 expect just because if we had done the

2 baselining right, these would be documents, in

3 addition to those already collected by NIOSH

4 and ORAU and would presumably be valuable to

5 go ahead and put on the O: drive. So these

6 would be the delta, the additional documents.

7 Original documents would be

8 returned. Obviously, we would keep the

9 originals and they'd be put up in electronic

10 form.

11 Now, we don't have scanning

12 equipment, but I think this is solvable one

13 way or the other.

14 MR. KATZ: My only suggestion is

15 that you may want to just look at the OCAS

16 procedure again, which was very clear about

17 the scanning situation and see if you want to

18 adapt that just to -- or if you want to stay

19 with us and just sort of stream the narrative

20 a little.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: I think the

22 narrative is fine. I think maybe as an
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1 appendix or something just so the SC&A folks

2 understand what the scanning process is and

3 what the OCAS requirements are to receive

4 documents because I think there was something

5 in there about providing the assurance that --

6 for example, if the interviewee gave us

7 documents, they would have to be screened by

8 DOE prior to submitting them to OCAS for

9 scanning, just simply because you wanted to

10 make sure that they were ruled unclassified,

11 not UCNI. So there are some of those steps

12 that I think have to be clarified, which would

13 be clarified in the appendix.

14 MEMBER PRESLEY: You all know this

15 is a problem if you got to take it to the DOE

16 site. If you take the scanner in -- that thing

17 sitting right there -- you're opening a can of

18 worms.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: I think in those

20 cases, DOE probably wouldn't let you. You'd

21 have to use their scanning equipment.

22 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. Make sure
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1 that they've got the equipment up front and

2 have people to do it each time you visit.

3 MR. KATZ: Joe, my point is just

4 that if you look at the OCAS procedure, it's

5 actually not elaborate. It's very brief. I

6 mean, I wouldn't put an appendix to this sort

7 of thing. There's so little to append, but if

8 you want to incorporate that, you could --

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, there is

10 actually -- it's very simple, but I think it's

11 easier to follow than just the narrative.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: No, but certainly,

14 with the discussion we've had today on -- and

15 this is more of a logistics issue. We agree

16 they need to be scanned. To the extent that

17 NIOSH is going to take hard copy, then we can

18 lay out the procedures and follow the OCAS

19 procedure for submitting documents for

20 scanning.

21 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: How about if we

22 stop for lunch?
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Actually, I was

2 going to suggest that when we get to

3 interviews, that's a good place.

4 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Okay.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: And interviews is

6 next. Any other questions on the actual data

7 capture, the document capture at the site?

8 We're done with that now. We're going on to

9 interviews, the next set of paragraphs.

10 So just for the benefit of the

11 people on the phone, there's two parts to this

12 procedure. One deals with data access,

13 information at the site, records, what have

14 you. The second piece deals with how

15 interviews would be conducted. We're at the

16 juncture between those two parts now.

17 So I guess your suggestion is to

18 break now.

19 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Yes. Why don't

20 we break for lunch?

21 MR. KATZ: So probably we are going

22 to break for lunch?
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1 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Yes, we are.

2 MR. KATZ: So for everyone on the

3 phone, it's almost 12:30, so I think we'll

4 break till 1:30 and then re-establish the

5 line. Thank you, everybody.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

7 matter went off the record at 12:27 p.m. and

8 resumed at 1:30 p.m.)

9 MR. KATZ: So this is the Advisory

10 Board on Radiation Worker Health and we're re11 convening after lunch. It's the working group

12 developing the Board's security plans so we're

13 compliant with DOE security plan.

14 Joe, you can just pick up where

15 you left off.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Yes, just

17 again, we left off with the heart of the

18 procedure that dealt with data access at the

19 sites and we're picking up now on the latter

20 portion that deals with conduct of interviews.

21 I'm just going to, again, walk

22 through this, particularly for the benefit of
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1 the folks on the phone that don't have the

2 written procedures in front of them.

3 In support of site profiles or SEC

4 reviews, we have interviewed -- and this is

5 pretty much in practice -- current and former

6 workers who have information that would be of

7 benefit to the review.

8 It's been a fundamental part of

9 what we do. We do it very much as a foundation

10 for the later analysis.

11 The only difference between the

12 conduct and the interview of a former worker

13 and a current worker is the current worker

14 typically requests the interview be conducted

15 during the work hours and we do have to make

16 arrangements. They, in fact, are compensated

17 by the contractor they work for so there are

18 some implications there.

19 So we pretty much deal with the

20 DOE site POC to establish where we would have

21 that interview and how they would participate.

22 Of course, participation of those interviews
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1 is voluntary and there's no requirement for

2 them to sit down with us, but typically, we do

3 make the invitation and go from there.

4 Anyway, we go through the process

5 -- and this, again, tracks what I think was in

6 PROC-010 with maybe a couple of differences.

7 Again, these differences are more for the

8 elaboration based on our experience at the

9 site.

10 Kathy has done a lion's share of

11 our interviews, so she contributed a lot to

12 laying this out.

13 I think there's some new issues we

14 might want to get into as well. When

15 conducting the interviews with workers at the

16 DOE sites, one issue is that we have to be

17 very careful about the sensitivity of the

18 information that's conveyed to us.

19 Whether it's a former worker or a

20 current worker, that they work at a site with

21 sensitive information -- we treat the

22 information we receive as potentially
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1 sensitive and without condition. Those notes

2 are given to the classification reviewers

3 immediately before we leave the site. They

4 don't leave the site with us. They are left

5 with the security people who screen the notes

6 and if necessary, do redactions before we

7 would get the notes back.

8 So I want to make sure that's

9 clear that that's part of the process that we

10 go through and certainly, the same process

11 that NIOSH and ORAU go through.

12 We notify the workers when we

13 interview them that that's the case -- that in

14 fact, because of the classification

15 procedures, those notes, even though they're

16 supporting our review, do cycle through the

17 classification review process at the DOE site

18 in question.

19 DR. MAKHIJANI: Now, are you

20 talking about classified reviews in this case?

21 MR. FITZGERALD: No. Anything that

22 we would get, regardless of the site, if it's
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1 an interview, we treat everything we receive

2 in terms of information and what we record as

3 notes as potentially classified.

4 DR. MAKHIJANI: We send everything

5 for review, but we send it later on when we

6 actually compile the notes.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: No, any -- well,

8 let me put it this way. Any notes that are

9 recorded at the site, when you're doing the

10 interview at the site --

11 DR. MAKHIJANI: At the site, okay.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: At the site, they

13 stay at the site. In fact, the site has a

14 means to review.

15 Some sites do not. In fact, they

16 don't exist anymore, in which case, we would

17 send it to whoever DOE indicates we should

18 send it to.

19 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: There's procedures

21 for how you package that and send it. I think

22 the SOP is that everything we collect in the
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1 way of notes and record in the way of notes is

2 directed to DOE before we would use those

3 notes further.

4 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. And there's

6 certainly other advance notifications that we

7 lay out. Certainly, there's the Privacy Act

8 requirements that we have to abide by and if,

9 in fact, there's the potential -- I mean,

10 other than the presumed potential but actual

11 potential for classified information, there's

12 always the option to do the interview at a

13 secure site.

14 Now, for a weapons facility or

15 NNSA site, we would take a step further and

16 just do all the interviews in a secure

17 location just because the workers, in a lot of

18 cases, held few clearances or certainly the

19 site itself had classified information

20 associated with it. So we would just take a

21 step of having the interviews in the first

22 place in a secure area.
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1 One issue that has come up and

2 actually, what we have in the procedure pre3 dates a lot of the dialogue on this question

4 of anonymity. In the past, we have been open

5 to a worker who really didn't want his name

6 associated with the information that they were

7 conveying to us and we would both leave the

8 name out as well as summarize the overall

9 interview so that really, there wasn't even

10 any specific information from that interview

11 itself. It was all sort of conglomerated into

12 a summary.

13 However, with more thinking about

14 this, clearly -- and we have done both

15 classified, unclassified sites -- clearly,

16 with the advent of submission of all interview

17 notes to DOE for review, there is that

18 potential that there may be some sensitive

19 information identified in one of the sets of

20 interview notes.

21 Of course, DOE always would follow

22 up and want to know the source of that
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1 information, so there is a sort of a qualifier

2 on that. Certainly, we could indicate, to the

3 extent we could try to keep this anonymous,

4 but there is that factor where if, in fact,

5 there's some sensitive information, DOE may

6 follow up and want to establish where it came

7 from.

8 So I think what we do in the front

9 part of this, and this is what I would add to

10 what's in this procedure, is we need to make

11 clear to the interviewee that in addition to

12 these things routinely going to DOE for

13 clearance, that there's a potential if they

14 want anonymity, that if there is any

15 classification issues, that DOE may want to

16 backtrack and find out the source and that may

17 involve identifying the source of information.

18 So I think with further -- and

19 that hasn't happened, but with further

20 thinking, that certainly is one possibility

21 that we want to make clear to the interviewee

22 before doing that.
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1 So I think that aspect of it is

2 something and I opened it up a little bit

3 because I think that's something we've talked

4 about, but haven't really firmed up as far as

5 procedurally how we would do it.

6 MR. KATZ: Let me just add some

7 more information to this since you had

8 interactions, Joe and John, on this very

9 topic. It goes beyond even DOE having the

10 classification issue because there are other

11 scenarios in which the identity of the

12 individual would have to be divulged as well,

13 including sort of judicial situations where

14 HHS would have to know the identity of the

15 person.

16 So where the discussion stands

17 right now is really, you shouldn't be making

18 any offer for anonymity to an interviewee. I

19 mean, I think you can -- I mean, you might be

20 able to offer that their name wouldn't be on

21 the documents at the outset, but really,

22 making any kind of promise of anonymity would
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1 be a problem.

2 Having a sort of a waiver, which

3 you would normally require, that you would

4 provide the individual for informed consent,

5 I think would be difficult to craft. So this

6 really is kind of a sticky issue and maybe

7 there's a way that SC&A can offer -- so, a low

8 profile to an individual, but I don't know

9 that you can make any kind of implication of

10 anonymity whatsoever.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, and I think

12 that's kind of the concern that we've had.

13 Again, this is something that's been discussed

14 of late.

15 One tool that we have is

16 typically, for what we do, which is to do a

17 number of interviews and those collected

18 interviews inform a site profile review or

19 inform an SEC, we can summarize -- and we have

20 done that in the past -- summarize these

21 individual interviews so that the information

22 itself, which is vital for the review is
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1 provided, but it does not identify any

2 particular source among several sources.

3 It also obviates a problem that

4 we've gotten into with Privacy Act because

5 again, sometimes it's difficult to avoid

6 Privacy Act issues when you have descriptors

7 that are clearly unique to whoever you

8 interviewed and they can be identified by

9 descriptors.

10 So this is something that's become

11 more and more apparent over time. The reason

12 it's come up, I think, lately is because

13 clearly, as the DOE security plan is coming

14 into place in PROC-011, we've looked at some

15 of these implications and realized that even

16 though in the past, people have come forward

17 and wanted their names not associated with a

18 specific piece of information, we could see

19 scenarios where you couldn't avoid it.

20 So it seems that we would have to

21 be up-front about that when we interviewed the

22 individual and had to make clear that that
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1 might, in fact, happen.

2 DR. MAKHIJANI: Kathy, are you on

3 the line?

4 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes, I am.

5 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay. We have a --

6 Kathy has certainly done more interviews than

7 me, but I've done my fair share and we have a

8 kind of a script that we go through. We don't

9 have a formal script, but we have scripts.

10 Basically, we tell them that it's

11 an unclassified interview. It's their

12 responsibility to protect classified

13 information. Nowadays, since the things are

14 going to the DOE, that we send the draft to

15 the DOE for review. I've done off site

16 interviews, essentially. So we send the draft

17 to the DOE for review.

18 But I think if you have a blanket

19 statement that there's no anonymity possible,

20 even those who may not want anonymity may

21 shrink from giving you the interview.

22 The possibility that it can be
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1 anonymous actually encourages more open -- in

2 my experience, that's from the atmosphere of

3 the interview. No one I've ever interviewed

4 has elected to be anonymous.

5 I understand that statement that

6 you've made and the concerns. Obviously, I'm

7 not qualified to talk about when something has

8 to be made public and I accept what you say at

9 face value. But some kind of disclosure about

10 some conditional anonymity disclosure

11 provision could perhaps be crafted that you

12 could offer then that so that it's not that

13 you have to give your name and it will be --

14 MR. KATZ: I think you could sort

15 of, in the low profile scenario I just

16 suggested and Joe just sort of described, I

17 think you could offer to someone that their

18 information is going to be summarized and not

19 identified with them. If that's your plan, I

20 think you could describe that sort of scenario

21 to them and explain that that's how their

22 information would be handled.
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1 But you could not -- you shouldn't

2 even imply that under any situation, they

3 would have anonymity because it's not

4 supportable legally.

5 So I think you can get to where

6 you want, Arjun, by explaining to the

7 individual again that their information is not

8 going to be provided with their name in the

9 way it's presented. It's intended to be

10 presented through the system, but they would

11 have to understand that there are a number of

12 scenarios under which their individual

13 identity would have to be divulged to either

14 DOE or to HHS. They'd have to understand that

15 that was a possibility.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, but I

17 understand Arjun's pt too because given the

18 breadth of experience we've had, these are

19 rather exceptional instances where that would

20 occur. We just identify these possible

21 scenarios.

22 I think the notion we have to
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1 avoid is this iron clad, under any

2 circumstances, you will be anonymous with the

3 information -- we can't do that given the fact

4 that --

5 DR. MAKHIJANI: I understand that.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: But I think what

7 Ted is saying is that in this up front

8 disclaimer -- we go through a lot of things,

9 cautionary notes and everything --I think in

10 that one, we have to be clear that we will

11 strive to protect the identity by removing the

12 name but keying it in.

13 In other words -- I know Kathy can

14 say interview A, B, C, D, and she knows who A,

15 B, C, and D are. She has the key and that

16 would be submitted that way and then it would

17 be summarized. So there's a lot of ways --

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: We can do that?

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

20 DR. MAKHIJANI: What goes to the

21 DOE would just be A, B, C, D?

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Now, the
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1 problem we're talking about is if interview C

2 turns out to have sensitive information and

3 they want to know the source, we have to go

4 back to interview C. If they independently

5 want to interview that person or talk to that

6 person, they'll know who that person is.

7 DR. MAKHIJANI: Can you tell them

8 that?

9 MR. KATZ: I think you can. I

10 think you can tell them this is my game plan.

11 Absolutely, I think you could do that.

12 I just wouldn't want you to ever

13 even utter the words that this is an anonymous

14 interview. I mean, you can explain to them

15 that this is the approach you're taking with

16 the information and so on.

17 But I think they should understand

18 that there are scenarios under which their

19 name would have to be identified by one or

20 another in the agency's office.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, and that's

22 the same context of either cautioning that
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1 we're going to stay away from sensitive areas.

2 We certainly want to keep this unclassified --

3 do this, do that -- however, this is going to

4 be screened.

5 I think it should be very clear

6 that DOE will be looking at this and in the

7 unlikely -- I'm trying to remember all the

8 words -- in the unlikely event that something

9 is found, there might be a follow up

10 investigation by which they'll want to know

11 the source.

12 MEMBER BEACH: And if you divulge

13 the source and DOE or NIOSH wants to interview

14 that individual, that individual has that

15 opportunity to decline a further interview or

16 --

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, not from

18 DOE. That's national security.

19 MEMBER BEACH: Okay, so they would

20 have -- I was just curious if their

21 information could be withdrawn in that

22 interview?
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: No.

2 MR. KATZ: There may be other

3 scenarios too, outside of DOE, where they

4 would not be able to decline further

5 participation.

6 DR. MAURO: Could you tell me a

7 little bit more about that -- about those

8 other situations? What other circumstances?

9 MR. KATZ: I don't understand it

10 very well, but in judicial issues -- if there

11 are legal issues. It may not relate directly

12 to what SC&A is doing whatsoever, but where.

13 MEMBER PRESLEY: Wait. Let me tell

14 you more, okay. If that person was involved in

15 an accident and had something to say about

16 that accident and that accident was an

17 accident involving death or something like

18 that --

19 DR. MAURO: Litigation?

20 MEMBER PRESLEY: Litigation. Then

21 that person -- once it comes up and it's

22 public, it's on the record.
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1 DR. MAURO: I see.

2 MR. KATZ: A criminal matter, I

3 think, probably would be another instance.

4 Give me an example where there would be no

5 protection of their identity.

6 MS. HOWELL: There are legal

7 concerns, but for uses within the program and

8 for uses outside the program.

9 DR. MAURO: You know what's ironic

10 about this? In my experience -- and I haven't

11 done anywhere as many interviews -- but the

12 people at the AWE facilities that I was in --

13 they want their name in the document. They cry

14 out for it and we can't put it in.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: They even want to

16 become authors.

17 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Can I bring

18 up another issue that recently cropped up with

19 interviews?

20 MR. KATZ: Yes, Kathy.

21 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: It may be

22 that when we submit interviews to the DOE for
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1 review in review summary, we are going to have

2 to remove the names because if we don't, some

3 of the sites are marking them officially use

4 only, which then gets us into a problem with

5 can we release to the public or not.

6 MR. KATZ: I mean, that just,

7 again, fits right in there with you telling

8 them what their strategy is in terms of

9 divulging information.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: I think one thing

11 that might be useful to add here -- I know in

12 the PROC-010, there's actually a very formal -

13 - some would call disclaimer -- sort of a text

14 to open the int. It seems like it would be

15 helpful to outline some of these cautionary

16 notes.

17 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Don't

18 disclaimers have one because the interviews

19 that I've seen --

20 MR. FITZGERALD: No, we have one,

21 but it's not in the procedure. I'm just saying

22 it sounds like it would be very helpful to
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1 make sure we itemize the bases that have to be

2 touched.

3 DR. MAKHIJANI: I think that would

4 be good. There are a lot of people doing

5 interviews and I think it would be good to

6 have some uniformity to this.

7 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Would it be

8 wrong to have a signature where they are

9 acknowledging that this was read to them?

10 DR. MAURO: Is it -- mirandizing?

11 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: No, actually

12 what I've seen is -- you've got to remember

13 that with the interviews I'm involved with

14 there, that they went through this step by

15 step by process and explained it. I just want

16 to make sure that people --

17 MR. FITZGERALD: I think there's

18 probably a number of things in that front end

19 that would be helpful to be more specific and

20 offer a flow.

21 DR. MAKHIJANI: Instead of a

22 signature making it a little bit more kind of
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1 off-putting, we might hand them a sheet and

2 say, here's the procedure and then just go

3 through it, walk them. I don't know.

4 MS. HOWELL: We would definitely

5 have to review anything like that. But if

6 there's a sigmas issue --

7 DR. MAKHIJANI: It would be part of

8 this procedure.

9 MR. KATZ: Joe, you're discussing

10 doing something along the lines of what OCAS

11 has, right?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm not sure it's

13 a statement you would read, but it would be

14 something that -- yes, I wasn't certain

15 whether we would read a statement, but I think

16 whether we hand something or use a systemic --

17 sort of like a checklist -- I think that would

18 fulfill some of what's in this statement, but

19 also serve the process well.

20 So I think that's something we'd

21 want to do and we would certainly have to send

22 that over to counsel for review. But it would
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1 capture, I think, what you're talking about,

2 which is a cautionary note as well as -- not

3 sort of disclaimer, but sort of here's what we

4 can do, but it's not a guarantee.

5 DR. MAKHIJANI: And here is the

6 process and here are the options.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

8 DR. MAKHIJANI: I think a checklist

9 might work.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think

11 we've got to play with it. That's one option,

12 a checklist.

13 MEMBER BEACH: I think as simple as

14 possible, though. Signatures require us

15 keeping track of that stuff and we probably

16 don't want to get into that.

17 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: You're going to

18 have to have one for charity and like on-site

19 interviews because you're going to be covering

20 two different things. Classified issues are a

21 totally different issue.

22 As I've seen, when it's off site,
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1 they make very sure that we cannot discuss any

2 kind of classified information.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Any more on that?

4 Any more on that part, Kathy?

5 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: No.

6 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry. I do have a

7 question. I know I've see the end of the

8 process where after some protracted period of

9 time, an appendix shows up to one of our site

10 profile residency reviews -- a 40 or 50 page

11 summary of the interview.

12 It goes through the whole formal

13 process and is eventually inserted as appendix

14 B or whatever into one of our work products.

15 What I don't know really -- and I

16 know there's been some discussion -- the

17 actual notes being pertinent, when you sit

18 down and talk to the person, there are the

19 person's name, as I understand it -- tell me

20 if I'm wrong -- and what the discussion was.

21 You're basically keeping a log talking to this

22 person.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Essentially, yes.

2 DR. MAURO: The date you're talking

3 to this person and there are notes. Now, those

4 notes, I understand, are also a part of the

5 process where DOE wants them back too.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: No, that's the

7 first thing they look at.

8 DR. MAURO: That's the first thing,

9 good. Now, but it's not made it into this

10 program. In other words, our notes -- I know

11 haven't seen them.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: That's right.

13 DR. MAURO: Our notes are not

14 published in any way, whether closed within

15 the work group or open, for certain. But they

16 do exist.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: That's right.

18 DR. MAURO: Is there anything about

19 that that we should be talking about, about

20 those particular notes and where they fit into

21 this program in terms of accessibility to

22 other parties involvement in this program.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it's sort of

2 the same character because if I go on site and

3 look at documents, I'm writing notes about the

4 what the relevance to those documents and how

5 they might fit into analysis. But that's not

6 going to be the review that would be subject

7 to the Board or provide the Board. Those are

8 just sort of ongoing notes.

9 This is the fodder for the

10 summaries that will become part of the

11 documents, the input. I think they're

12 maintained just because if there's any

13 questions on the summaries, you can go back to

14 the original notes that one takes.

15 But those original notes go

16 through DOE, make sure they're unclassified.

17 They then go back to the interviewee to

18 validate that what we recorded, in fact, is

19 what the interviewee believes they've said. So

20 there's a validation step involved.

21 If there's any major corrections,

22 guess what? They go back to DOE to make sure
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1 that those suggestions don't embody anymore

2 classified information.

3 After they come back or when they

4 come back to the interviewee, then someone

5 like Kathy sits down and summarizes those

6 individual interviews into the section that

7 you see.

8 So really, the drafting of that

9 section is the first time this becomes even a

10 draft version of what would end up in our

11 analysis. Everything before that is sort of

12 pre-decisional note taking.

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Can I back

14 up here a minute?

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, go ahead.

16 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: First of

17 all, you have the very raw note that we take

18 during the int. I think Arjun can tell you

19 that a lot of the time, these things don't

20 make sense to any body else but the author.

21 They go through review and then we

22 do an individual interview summary of those
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1 notes. They also go through review by DOE. At

2 that point, they're released to the

3 interviewee for comment.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, so none are

5 cycled.

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: To me,

7 they're pretty decisional at a targeted stance

8 from the interviewee, but yes, that's what I

9 said.

10 MR. KATZ: This is to address what

11 you're discussing in these procedures already?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, in a general

13 way.

14 MS. HOWELL: I would clarify that

15 while certainly those documents would be

16 predecisional and protectable from FOIA and

17 other forms of release in multiple ways,

18 there's still documents that you've created on

19 your contract with the government and their

20 government contract documents.

21 DR. MAURO: Where do they reside

22 now? Where are they now?
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, they reside

2 with Kathy, I would think, for the interviews.

3 Right, Kathy?

4 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: A lot of

5 them do. They actually reside with the

6 interviewee.

7 DR. MAKHIJANI: They reside with

8 the interviewer.

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: The

10 interviewer, sorry. I haven't done 100 percent

11 of the interviews. Some of them reside in

12 files at the DOE.

13 MEMBER BEACH: I was going to say,

14 aren't those also available to -- if they're

15 SC&A's notes, aren't they available to NIOSH

16 and NIOSH's notes are also available to SC&A?

17 MR. FITZGERALD: I think the point

18 she was making though, until they come back

19 from the interviewee as validated, and at that

20 point -- am I right, Kathy? At that point,

21 there are documents that would be available?

22 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Right.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Now, whether

2 they've been systematically made available is

3 part of what we've been treating in this that

4 in terms of all documents, that would include

5 interview notes. That would be made available

6 at that point. Right?

7 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Like I --

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Even before

9 summarization, it would be made available.

10 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Some of

11 these raw notes are sitting at DOE sites

12 because they have to be maintained there.

13 DR. MAURO: No, my question is a

14 little different. My question is, at some

15 point in the process, the notes with people's

16 names on it and your notes, after they've gone

17 through whatever number of cycles they need to

18 go through, including the interviewee and DOE,

19 eventually they have a home sitting on your

20 file and you have the document. Of course,

21 that becomes the source material from which

22 you make your summary level documents.
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1 That material that's sitting there

2 is certainly a work product that was prepared

3 under contract, under our contract. It belongs

4 to the government, and the question is, what

5 do we do with those notes right now? Where are

6 they sitting? Who has ownership? Is it part of

7 our process to make them available to the

8 record -- not the public record, but the

9 project record -- available to NIOSH and its

10 folks. Or do we wait until someone asks for

11 them before we distribute them?

12 MS. HOWELL: Well, I would -- the

13 original notes -- the ones that are just

14 scribbles -- those are government also.

15 Now, we are not in the habit of

16 requesting those. I don't foresee us

17 requesting those, but if we were to request

18 them, we would receive them.

19 DR. MAURO: I got you.

20 MS. HOWELL: Now, when you're

21 talking about the later summaries and whatnot,

22 I mean, typically, I thought that those were
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1 being turned over to the Board as being

2 responsive to a contract task request.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, summaries go

4 with the report.

5 MS. HOWELL: So Ted at least, is

6 getting them.

7 DR. MAKHIJANI: Let me just kind of

8 explain. The scribbles in the computer

9 typically stay with us. Of course, you can

10 request them. Normally, until now, the draft

11 goes through DOE.

12 Its cleaned up, spot checked. It

13 goes through DOE and then it goes back to the

14 worker. If we do not hear from the

15 interviewee, we don't use any of that material

16 in our analysis because it's considered

17 unverified.

18 And so, we actually just set that

19 aside and it sits there. MPS is a good

20 example. I mean, we didn't get a few of the

21 interviews back and we did not use them. They

22 don't appear in the summary because we don't
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1 he said, she said -- oh, I didn't mean that

2 kind of situation appearing in any of our

3 analyses.

4 And that's the whole part of the

5 procedure -- sending it back to the worker and

6 getting an affirmative response. And so, yes,

7 there are a lot of raw notes and yes, in

8 principle, they could be requested and become

9 part of some public record eventually. Well,

10 not public record, but project record.

11 But there are interviews that are

12 unverified and normally, nowadays -- at first,

13 we did not actually need the individual

14 interview part of what we submitted to the

15 Board. This discussion arose two or three

16 years ago and the Board said well, why aren't

17 we seeing the individual interviews because at

18 first, we were only publishing the summaries.

19 And then we began the practice of

20 when the individual interviews were final,

21 along with the summaries, we also provide the

22 individual interview records to the Board.
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1 So there are two kinds of things

2 that go through NIOSH and the Board -- the

3 final verified interview record with all the

4 names. This corresponds with the other stuff

5 about Privacy Act. The Board said we want to

6 see everything and they can see everything.

7 That applies to the interviews and then the

8 summaries, which becomes part of the public

9 record.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: I think the only

11 comment I would have -- I don't think there's

12 been a systematic -- and this has been an

13 evolving process over the last eight or nine

14 months -- and I think that's what we're

15 looking at here. It's more or less automatic

16 full disclosure transfer of any information,

17 including interview notes, over as soon as

18 they're past the validation phase.

19 Kathy, did you have a comment?

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Just --

21 okay, when you're talking about the

22 handwritten notes -- John says where are they?
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1 They're with the interviewer or they're in a

2 safe at DOE, depending upon the classification

3 level.

4 There are some SC&A interviews

5 that have to be maintained that way at DOE.

6 MR. KATZ: So my only question with

7 this is, for those ones that stay with the

8 interviewer --obviously, if the DOE is

9 holding, that's a different issue -- but does

10 SC&A actually gather those up so that they're

11 sort of corporate property as opposed to just

12 with individuals who may or may not be with

13 SC&A three years from now?

14 DR. MAURO: The answer is no.

15 MR. KATZ: But I think that

16 probably needs to be -- I'm not sure whether

17 that needs to be reflected here, but it does

18 need to be --

19 DR. MAURO: No, this is an

20 important conversation because the way I see

21 it is, everything that we do, everything we

22 do, we're billing time against this contract,
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1 including writing e-mails, whatever it is we

2 do.

3 This is part of the project and

4 you have access to it. As a project officer,

5 you have that. That's how I see it. There's

6 nothing we can retain.

7 DR. MAKHIJANI: That is true, first

8 of all, because it's contractual. Typically,

9 these are conversations that are going on . We

10 do not tape these.

11 DR. MAURO: No.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: The reason we do

13 not tape this is a lot of people say a lot of

14 things and sometimes they're ill-advised -- a

15 personal point of view, allegations, things.

16 We've always felt that it's better to make an

17 accurate record with some discretion, in terms

18 of not actually making a tape recording and

19 then adding that to become an issue.

20 DR. MAURO: Absolutely.

21 DR. MAKHIJANI: But because,

22 essentially, we can't transcribe. We're not
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1 court reporters. And so we try to make an

2 accurate record, but these interviews could

3 contain errors. I mean, there are places where

4 I know I write I didn't get this or is this

5 clear or I don't know if this is right.

6 I'm a little uncomfortable about

7 erroneous -- no, no. I don't understand the

8 legal side of it, so if CDC requests this and

9 it goes into CDC, then you have -- and the

10 interview is never verified by the

11 interviewer, so you don't have a corrected

12 record -- then you have something that's

13 incomplete and may contain errors that could

14 become part of the public record.

15 MS. HOWELL: And that's why you put

16 some sort of language on it stating that.

17 MR. KATZ: I mean, the government

18 is full of these kind of programs. From its

19 own doings, it's full of these kinds of

20 records. They are government records. They

21 belong to the government, but they're not

22 final products. They're not reviewed, et
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1 cetera.

2 I mean, the government is replete

3 with this kind of information. It doesn't ever

4 -- 99.9 percent of it never sees the light of

5 day, in terms of going beyond the government

6 to anyone else. It stays in the files because

7 it's part of the file.

8 MS. HOWELL: You have to have work

9 products to get to that final point where you

10 do assume some verification in the document

11 and everything, but the problem is that

12 everything up to that point is still a record

13 that needs to be maintained.

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: It would be useful

15 to have some kind of boilerplate language that

16 you could stick on top of these things because

17 certainly, we have not been doing this -- if

18 we could stick on this because if it's going

19 to be corrected in a corporate format, then

20 they should all have some kind of a uniform

21 disclaimer not only that it's predecisonal but

22 that it could be incomplete and may contain
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1 errors.

2 MR. KATZ: I mean, for example,

3 with your interviews, you could state across

4 there, this information has not yet been

5 verified.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes.

7 MR. KATZ: That's a simple

8 statement to make. It makes it very clear that

9 this is just the person's notes, but not

10 necessarily accurate notes. It can be shown in

11 that context.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: And the way we have

13 been doing that, of course, is we -- say a

14 draft has been reviewed and then we send I off

15 and then when it comes back, we finalize it.

16 So I have kind of a three step

17 process, but the control of it generally

18 belongs to the interviewer until it becomes a

19 final product.

20 MS. HOWELL: The other thing too,

21 just as a contracting concern, while the real

22 award of this particular contract may have
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1 already gone through, if we were to ever

2 switch technical support contractors, there

3 were additional questions from a site -- you

4 know, there needs to be that continuity of

5 information there so that we don't duplicate

6 efforts.

7 That's just another reason for

8 insuring that somewhere there is a repository

9 that -- it can be passed along.

10 DR. MAURO: Arjun's point is

11 especially relevant now that we're about to

12 move into what I call losing the government's

13 computers. We're soon going to be receiving

14 30 computers. All our work that's infected --

15 right now, it's like watching sausage being

16 made.

17 I know what reports look like.

18 Some times the writing is very poor, plenty of

19 errors in this, and there's a process of

20 getting a quality product out, which is

21 protracted.

22 All of this now, I believe -- tell
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1 me if I'm wrong -- is going to go on, on these

2 government computers, every step of the way.

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: That's

4 actually not true.

5 DR. MAURO: Okay, yes? Then I need

6 a little help with this because I'm not sure

7 what's going to happen when that thing

8 happens.

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: When you do

10 on site interviews, most of them are hand11 written or you do them on a DOE computer if

12 you're lucky. You don't bring your own

13 computer on site, especially at places like

14 Pantex.

15 DR. MAURO: Well, eventually, what

16 you do -- let me ask you this -- eventually,

17 you take your log book with handwritten notes

18 and you key it into something. I'm assuming

19 what you'll be doing now is keying it in to

20 your new government computer.

21 So that's the place where it

22 enters behind the cone of silence, so to
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1 speak. It's going to enter there in its

2 crudest form. It's going to be there. And that

3 work product is now going to be -- we're going

4 to work on. All that. 

5 Now, as we move through that

6 process, that's going to evolve. That document

7 is itself going to evolve. It's going to

8 disappear and be replaced. It's going to be

9 edited, just like we do now, only it's all

10 going to be going on on your computer.

11 So I'm assuming that every stage

12 in the maturation of a document is not going

13 to be archived. Is that correct? In other

14 words, we're going to be allowed to work our

15 product and not show every step because the

16 steps are numerable.

17 MS. HOWELL: Certainly, that is

18 true. Generally, I'll offer only a lawyerly

19 comment, which is to say that you will be

20 working on government computers and every key

21 stroke that you make on a computer, whether

22 it's government or not, never really goes
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1 away.

2 And not that we are going to be

3 running tests on these computers -- we're

4 certainly not -- but in the event that we are

5 involved in litigation, one of the things that

6 can be discovered now under the federal rules

7 of evidence is metadata. So if you have some

8 version of your document on there and it was

9 properly requested, which would require a

10 great deal of knowledge about how this Board

11 and the contractor and the program works, but

12 if it were properly requested, it is possible

13 that some previous predecisional draft version

14 that was never actually sent to anybody could

15 come out.

16 But that is not how we typically

17 work. That is not what I'm trying to say where

18 we talk about what needs to be maintained.

19 DR. MAKHIJANI: I've actually come

20 across this since I've worked in the legal

21 arena quite a bit. Only once in my own work

22 outside this arena, -- I'm in the habit of
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1 keeping my various drafts -- was everything

2 requested. We supplied huge numbers of boxes

3 with the same print, slight differences

4 between one draft or another, but we did send

5 that.

6 MR. KATZ: And just to be clear,

7 I'm not saying I want -- I don't want SC&A to

8 submit all this information to the agency. All

9 I'm saying is that SC&A, as the contractor,

10 has to have its organizational files with

11 these records in them. I'm not saying that

12 they need to be turned over to us.

13 DR. MAURO: So the single most

14 important thing that I got out of this

15 conversation is that there are handwritten

16 records that exist right now by the

17 interviewers that are not in our central file.

18 It sounds to me that we have an

19 obligation to keep that in our central file.

20 Is that what I'm hearing? Legally,

21 contractually.

22 MS. HOWELL: Also, it sounded to me
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1 like you have formal type written things that

2 are not being centrally maintained.

3 DR. MAKHIJANI: They are, they are

4 not. There's also a question associated with

5 that because now when we prepare -- I'm

6 looking at these notes -- these went from me

7 to Kathy so she could put all the interviews

8 that we did during that trip together, cleaned

9 them up and sent them to the DOE.

10 These are the draft interviews.

11 I'm presuming that's what should be in the

12 central record. Now, what I send to Kathy

13 sometimes -- here's how the sausage is made

14 and when you advise us.

15 So typically, there are a number

16 of us who would be -- typically, there are at

17 least two people making notes to make sure

18 that you don't miss stuff because stuff goes

19 fast. Very often, we're interviewing two or

20 three or four workers at the same time.

21 There's a lot that can be happening and a lot

22 being said.
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1 So typically, when Kathy and I

2 together, I will send my notes to Kathy

3 because they will have gaps. They will have

4 things that I missed or questions that I have

5 and she will compare to her notes and she'll

6 compile a draft record. And that's a draft

7 record. That's the raw record.

8 But then there's the thing that I

9 sent her and in my mind, the thing that I'm

10 understanding that should go into the

11 corporate records would be what Kathy sends to

12 the DOE as a draft interview and then whatever

13 comes back from the DOE -- I'm not sure what

14 all is being asked to be part of the corporate

15 records and what all can be maintained simply

16 by the record?

17 MS. HOWELL: I mean, I guess I

18 would say that you probably need to keep

19 copies of the records before and after the DOE

20 review. Although, there would be certain

21 people in NIOSH who would at least be able to

22 see the version prior to DOE release.
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1 So therefore, it would seem to me

2 you would want to maintain that version as

3 well as the cleared version.

4 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay.

5 MS. HOWELL: Prior to that, the

6 handwritten notes or the rough --

7 MR. ELLIOTT: Field notes, we would

8 call them.

9 MS. HOWELL: Field notes, right.

10 Which I guess would also include your initial

11 write up of them and sending them to Kathy.

12 Those would need to be maintained, but I'm not

13 sure that they need to become part of the

14 corporate record.

15 DR. MAKHIJANI: They are

16 maintained. I mean, they're maintained.

17 MS. HOWELL: Right.

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: They're maintained

19 with the interviewer.

20 MS. HOWELL: But I mean, if you

21 were to have someone on staff or a sub

22 contractor that is hired through SC&A and
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1 who's been doing this work and they were to

2 leave, you would want to ask them for even

3 those materials.

4 As long as they continue to be in

5 your employ, one way or another, it's fine for

6 them to maintain them as long as you're in

7 keeping with all the security requirements and

8 everything else. But if that person were to

9 sever their ties with you, you would want to

10 get that from them.

11 MR. CALHOUN: And Emily, let's just

12 say, hypothetically speaking, we go to the

13 site and meet some people at a library and we

14 take some notes down and interview, we submit

15 those interview notes to DOE -- because we're

16 not at a DOE site -- and something bad and

17 nasty is in there, we're not going to keep

18 those notes. They're gone.

19 MS. HOWELL: Right.

20 MR. CALHOUN: So you said to try to

21 maintain a copy before and after DOE? Those

22 notes are gone.
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1 MS. HOWELL: Assuming you had any

2 notes. I guess we would at least know that

3 there had been something else there that was

4 then not.

5 MR. CALHOUN: And then let me ask

6 one more question. If you go to a site -- it

7 doesn't matter of it's classified or not --

8 and you go to interview Grady Calhoun about

9 the Fernald site and then you write your

10 handwritten notes.

11 Then ultimately, you come up with

12 a written document that is submitted to DOE,

13 presumably cleared by DOE hopefully, that this

14 is an interview with Grady Calhoun about

15 Fernald site, 1995. That document, you send to

16 the SRDB, correct?

17 DR. MAURO: Once it's cleared?

18 MR. CALHOUN: Once it cleared. So

19 that I've got a documented interview with

20 Grady Calhoun that you guys did that's in

21 SRDB.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: That's what I was
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1 referring to before.

2 MR. CALHOUN: Because we do that.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. The SRDB

4 input, making that systemic -- meaning across

5 the board for anything that's collected,

6 including interview notes -- has not happened.

7 MR. CALHOUN: Not the notes. I'm

8 talking about the interview itself.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: the interview

10 itself after it's been validated by the DOE?

11 MR. CALHOUN: Yes.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I was trying

13 to circle back because Arjun had some

14 comments. That was the gap, I think, that I

15 picked up on that the summaries and stuff, of

16 course, go into the document.

17 But the actual individual

18 interviewee write up that has been cleared by

19 DOE, validated by the interviewee feeds into

20 the summaries but doesn't go anywhere by

21 itself.

22 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: That's not
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1 true.

2 DR. MAURO: It does.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: It does, okay.

4 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes. That's

5 not true. What we've been doing since we

6 started doing individual summaries is that

7 that goes to the working group.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: That goes to the

9 working group, but not to NIOSH for inclusion

10 in the S30B.

11 MEMBER BEACH: Their part in NIOSH

12 is art of the working group.

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, I

14 would assume that because it was going to the

15 working group, it was going to NIOSH.

16 MR. CALHOUN: I'm just saying that

17 once we've got that summary, it needs to go

18 into SRDB.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think

20 there's a -- we haven't got to it yet, but

21 there's a facet of this thing that deals with

22 input to SRDB. It's in PROC-010.
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1 We don't have it explicit here,

2 but I think in an earlier discussion, we were

3 indicating that it would probably be good to

4 have an appendix or something that would be

5 very explicit about what stuff and how it goes

6 into the SRDB.

7 I think that would take care of

8 identifying the individual notes as well as

9 whatever else that goes in there. Right now,

10 it isn't. I mean, it goes to the work group.

11 I don't think it goes to the SRDB.

12 MS. HOWELL: Shouldn't the SRDB

13 also have the full version and not just the

14 summary?

15 DR. MAKHIJANI: Kathy is calling

16 the summaries, really, the cleaned up notes.

17 It's not truly a compressed --

18 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, this is the raw

19 launcher, raw field notes. But if you turn

20 your raw field notes into an individual

21 summary that then is melded into a composite

22 of the interviews themselves, I think we want
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1 both of those.

2 DR. MAKHIJANI: Now, the working

3 group, as well as NIOSH, get both of those,

4 except as Grady is saying, it's not in the SEC

5 reviews.

6 But many of our reports are not in

7 the SRDB either. I mean, I know many reports

8 that we do for boards and the working group,

9 white papers. Even SEC reviews, CC reviews,

10 you know, when they come out in rapid fire

11 once a month, many of them are not on the

12 NIOSH website or on the SRDB. They're not all

13 on the NIOSH website.

14 MR. ELLIOTT: So what is it that is

15 not on the NIOSH website that you think should

16 be? White papers are not -- I don't think

17 they're fodder for the website.

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: I can give you a

19 couple of examples.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: All right.

21 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, I've

22 got an example off the top of my head. It
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1 would be the K25 site profile review, unless

2 it's been loaded in the last --

3 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry. That was an

4 oversight. This is something -- yes, the K25

5 site profile review took awhile to get up

6 there.

7 MR. ELLIOTT: So that should be on

8 the website.

9 DR. MAURO: Yes, of course.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: It wasn't, but it is

11 now, I believe.

12 DR. MAURO: We're talking about

13 something else. Like for example --

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: We've got a number

15 of old reports that are not on the NIOSH

16 website.

17 DR. MAURO: At least a dozen white

18 papers have been produced in the last month

19 related to Mound, the Nevada test site.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: But the white papers

21 won't go on the website.

22 MR. KATZ: They can't go on the
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1 website before the Privacy Act review.

2 DR. MAURO: Are they going -- they

3 are going through the Privacy Act review?

4 MR. ELLIOTT: White papers don't go

5 on the website. Only the official products

6 given to the Advisory Board as a review from

7 SC&A go on the website.

8 The other documents that you're

9 talking about should be placed in that site

10 research database or the board's whatever

11 they're called -- share drive -- that the

12 board has. There should be a set of files for

13 all that Mound SRS.

14 DR. MAURO: we have a little bit if

15 a dilemma. One of the things that we did

16 starting a few years ago was, if you recall,

17 we have a very formal process that we prepare

18 site profiles.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes.

20 DR. MAURO: And the product comes

21 out as a stand alone work product and goes

22 off. It's not kept in the closets.
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1 We used to do that with SEC

2 petition evaluation report reviews. It became

3 a large effort. What happened was along the

4 way, we realized that no, what we're going to

5 do is we're going to make every SEC process

6 more of a focused review where we transition

7 from a site profile review into -- it usually

8 goes this way -- into an SEC process. The

9 workgroup decides what are the issues that

10 they'd like their contractor, SC&A, to focus

11 in on and prepare special investigations. Then

12 SC&A moves down that road. In the same exact

13 way, so does NIOSH and its contractor.

14 So all of a sudden what we have is

15 a series of targeted lines of inquiry related

16 to the SEC process, all of which take a form,

17 most of the time, of a white paper. There are

18 lots of them.

19 The work products that are

20 actually being prepared in support of the

21 Board's decision making related to SEC are

22 really white papers. We don't really have
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1 these big tomes coming out anymore on SEC

2 related matters.

3 MS. HOWELL: But aren't you rolling

4 those white papers into SEC documents later

5 on? I thought --

6 DR. MAURO: Maybe eventually. We've

7 been in the middle of a lot of tests right now

8 for a couple of years.

9 MR. ELLIOTT: But some of the white

10 papers just go away too. Just -- there is a

11 fraction or whatever and --

12 DR. MAURO: We both - we are able

13 to go down a road and at someplace along the

14 way, we realize, you know, we're going to

15 change direction now.

16 MS. HOWELL: So we're getting into

17 an area of discussion that is really not

18 germane to the security.

19 MEMBER BEACH: I was wondering if

20 we were kind of drifting.

21 MS. HOWELL: And it's certainly

22 important, but --
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: It is important

2 though. If there are documents that you feel

3 should be on the website from SC&A that are

4 not there, Ted should let me know. We should

5 get them put up if there are documents that

6 need to be up there.

7 DR. MAURO: I think this is worthy

8 of --

9 MR. FITZGERALD: This is a separate

10 discussion. I'm sure the standing of these

11 intermediate documents that are actually very

12 crucial to the SEC process and how one -- what

13 their standing is and how they're logged in --

14 they need to go into the SRDB automatically.

15 Right now, there isn't any real

16 guidance. They just sort of exist and some

17 things peter out.

18 You really need predecisional

19 support documents of the workgroup to make a

20 decision on a particular SEC issue, but just

21 memorializing the documents used for that

22 decision and putting them somewhere where ten
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1 years from now, they can be located would

2 probably be a good idea.

3 DR. MAURO: A very good test case

4 would be what happened to all of the white

5 papers that emerged from the Blockson process.

6 The Blockson process generated a

7 large number of very focused investigations

8 that led us to where we are now. The Board, of

9 course, on occasion, has voted on that

10 particular issue, as you know.

11 But behind that vote are all of

12 these white papers. I've got to tell you, I'm

13 not sure -- I know I have them on my -- I have

14 a box. Is that it? I mean, there's got to be

15 a better way of doing it?

16 MS. HOWELL: There's a way for a

17 distinction to be made between what is on the

18 website and what is maintained by the agency.

19 I don't think that we have lost track of a

20 single white paper.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: No. They all are in

22 our file. They have permeated everywhere.
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1 MS. HOWELL: But there's a major

2 difference between looking up --

3 MR. ELLIOTT: But that is the

4 problem. Because we pick one up and we don't

5 know -- should this one go anywhere or was

6 this one morphed into something else. Was this

7 finalized?

8 MS. HOWELL: I thought the agency

9 database was supposed to be tracking that.

10 DR. MAURO: We've got to talk about

11 this.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: There is a new

13 document control system that we are preparing

14 to roll out and with the advent of the issue

15 of the computers for you folks and the Board

16 members.

17 It has a feature that you all can

18 engage with and essentially task others to

19 review your documents without us seeing who

20 you're asking to review. You then place them

21 into this system so they're appropriately

22 archived and housed.
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1 So I don't think we've lost any of

2 these documents. I think all we've managed to

3 do is create a big mess of documents that

4 we're having trouble sorting out and figuring

5 out what's the life of the document, where did

6 it impact, and what change did it result in.

7 DR. MAURO: What I find myself

8 doing -- every white paper that we write, we

9 always have an introductory paragraph on its

10 genesis and where it sits within the sequence

11 of events, how did it come about, why are we

12 doing it.

13 So it's there, but I have to tell

14 you that after a few years of this, if someone

15 wanted to go back and recreate what happened,

16 it's no small task.

17 MR. ELLIOTT: No, it's not. It's

18 not. But I would commend you guys. SC&A --

19 Nancy has done an excellent job lately of

20 sending out documents and providing very clear

21 explicit explanations of what the document is,

22 whether it's been Privacy Act reviewed,
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1 whether it's been DOE reviewed, what the

2 actions the person who's receiving it should

3 take.

4 And I've asked my folks to look at

5 what you guys have done and say I want to be

6 as good, if not better. So get it up to speed.

7 Because, you know, Brad sent one out last week

8 and just said here's a white paper. Well, I

9 don't know what it's on. Even I'm asking

10 what's it on? What's on Mound? Well, big deal.

11 Show, tell me it's on Mound. Tell me it's

12 Privacy Act controlled or it's Privacy Act

13 released. Tell me it's DOE reviewed or tell me

14 it's being DOE reviewed, but let's get with

15 it.

16 So I think we've got some work to

17 do on our side and I just commend you guys for

18 the steps you've taken.

19 If there's documents you need up

20 on the website --

21 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm being prodded

22 by the work group chairman --
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1 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: I wasn't going

2 to tell you -- let me tell you a little story.

3 Let me write this story here. Just like, we

4 have -- these are important questions and I'm

5 not downplaying them at all, but these should

6 be taken care of at another place, in other

7 times and other meetings.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Actually, we're at

9 the last major paragraph. I'm going to tell

10 you what this paragraph provides and then tell

11 you what is here relative to PROC-010 and why.

12 That would probably be a good way to cap it.

13 This basically lays out, by virtue

14 of practice, what we do in terms of how we

15 scope the site, how we work with the DOE site

16 POC to set up and arrange interviews.

17 We set up off site interviews with

18 former workers, advocacy group petitioners,

19 what have you. We do on site interviews where

20 it's pretty clear there may be the potential

21 for classified information or we're dealing

22 with active workers and these, again, it's
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1 coordinated with the DOE at the site. I think

2 part of the issue is giving the interviewee

3 some context of who we are and what we're

4 after.

5 Beyond that, in terms of the

6 classification process, I think we already

7 covered that. Everything that we produced,

8 that's generated in the way of notes and what

9 have you, any documents that we receive would

10 have to go back to DOE just to have that

11 screening done.

12 We go through a process of

13 summarization. We covered all of that so I

14 won't go through that in too much detail, but

15 there is a process by which we take those

16 notes and we produce a first cut, which is

17 sent back to the worker for validation. And

18 then that's re-typed and as I was corrected,

19 it's evolved to a process where we make that

20 available to the work group. Once we clarify

21 the way this is input into the SRDB -- it

22 would also be provided for inclusion in the
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1 SRDB, the first cut.

2 Of course the summary goes into

3 the draft report so that, of course, by that

4 nature, gets in there anyway. And then there's

5 a master summary, as we just said.

6 Now, what's not here in that

7 process I just outlined quickly is we don't

8 get into the inputting to the SRDB in any

9 detail, which is laid out, perhaps in more

10 detail, in PROC-010. I think we said earlier

11 that would be a good idea whether it

12 references within the text, with an appendix

13 or something because we fully intend to submit

14 documents we identified as well as interview

15 notes to the SRDB. So I think that would be

16 something we would add.

17 Another thing that we didn't cover

18 explicitly but is covered explicitly in some

19 detail is the process that we would follow if

20 provided documents by the interviewee in terms

21 of having those documents screened and made

22 ready for the SRDB.
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1 Kathy, you do this all the time.

2 In terms of documents which are volunteered by

3 interviewees, what's the process by virtue of

4 practice right now?

5 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: At the

6 moment, we don't usually put them through DOE

7 review because they're usually public sources.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Public documents?

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: But if

10 there's a reason to believe that they need to

11 review -- for example, two documents recently

12 given to me at San Dia, I will submit them to

13 DOE even for a second review if I'm not sure.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Now, you have a

15 copy of PROC-010 in front of you? What I'm

16 getting to is, is there any reason we couldn't

17 go through due process as laid out in PROC-010

18 as we're required right now to submit

19 documents pretty much along that regime? I'm

20 talking about 5.2.3, page 10.

21 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: We can. It's

22 just a matter of to what degree. If somebody
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1 gives you a website, for example, you want to

2 go ahead and print that out and submit it.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, no. I think

4 we're talking about unmarked documents as

5 documents which are clearly not public

6 documents, just documents that --

7 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: You mean

8 company documents?

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, yes. If you

10 -- typically, a former worker may have

11 something he kept when he retired and it's

12 unlabeled. That would be certainly something

13 that would fall in this regime where you

14 certainly don't know -- if it weren't labeled

15 back when, it might now be considered

16 sensitive and you wouldn't want to deal with

17 the ambiguity.

18 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes, and a

19 lot of times, for example, when we were doing

20 interviews with Mound workers, we just

21 included what we were given in with the

22 interview notes.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. I recall

2 that. That's what I'm saying. I'm trying -- it

3 doesn't sound like it would be any problem

4 that either we would submit it with the

5 interview notes or we would submit them

6 separately, but anything that's not clearly a

7 public document would be submitted.

8 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Right.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Now, I would think

10 the one that would make us most nervous is

11 something that was clearly a company document.

12 A lot of times those would be dicey, so we

13 would certainly want to control that.

14 I think what we're going to do on

15 this one is just go ahead and mirror, to the

16 extent that it's relevant -- I think all this

17 is relevant -- just put much of this in here

18 in terms of documents just to make it clear

19 that the documents collected would be handled

20 that way.

21 The other thing that we don't, as

22 far as contrasting PROC-010 with this
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1 document, we don't go into a lot of the

2 classification process here. I think what we

3 were doing was simplifying and just saying

4 that we would adhere to the DOE security

5 policy and the requirements that -- they do

6 stipulate how those kinds of interview notes

7 and documents would be handled.

8 I don't believe there's anything

9 here that would not be covered by that policy.

10 By reference, we're applying those

11 requirements to UCNI and ECI and classified

12 information. I think some of this speaks to

13 that.

14 I don't know, Grady, if there's

15 anything here that would be not covered by the

16 security policy.

17 MR. CALHOUN: I'd have to look. I

18 don't have it in front of me.

19 MR. KATZ: I just would suggest

20 that it's much more clear to include it then

21 to just refer to this vague thing called the

22 DOE security plan that someone would have to
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1 go and look at and figure out where in that

2 security plan --

3 MR. FITZGERALD: With the proviso

4 that some of the forms at issue, we might have

5 to change, but other than that, I don't have

6 any problem with that. I think that would make

7 it cleaner.

8 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: So you would

9 attach the whole PROC-011?

10 MR. FITZGERALD: No, just retain

11 the language that's in PROC-010. Assuming that

12 really even though we simplified by

13 referencing the security policy, it doesn't do

14 any harm and probably clarifies better if we

15 track with that.

16 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Why? There's an

17 appendix in the back?

18 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, no. It's

19 actually part of the section. Just write it

20 in. Take the provisions in the security policy

21 and go ahead and leave it in the actual

22 procedure.
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1 What we did was basically said,

2 well, the procedure, the policy, covers these

3 actions so we're not going to include them.

4 But on the other hand, any difference that's

5 going to make it confusing to anybody that

6 looks at these two documents.

7 I think that accounts for the

8 differences that I saw. The entry to SRDB, the

9 documents provided by the interviewee, and

10 referencing the security policy rather than

11 being explicit in the text.

12 I think you can remedy all three

13 of those. I don't see that it -- it wouldn't

14 change materially how we would do business on

15 those.

16 As I said before, I think, given

17 the conversation earlier, we would delete

18 appendix A. It's outmoded. That was an early

19 DOE idea that they're not using.

20 That's it for that piece. For that

21 one..

22 MR. CALHOUN: For that one...
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1 MR. KATZ: That's the book because

2 the evidence is very new.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: We did indicate we

4 would include the OCAS-4 form, which is not

5 there now. It's in the appendix.

6 Any final comments on this version

7 of the proposed Board site access procedures?

8 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Do we want to

9 take a quick 10 minute break?

10 MR. KATZ: Sure. A 10 minute break

11 for the folks on the phone. So it's almost 20

12 to, so about 10 to 3, we'll get back in.

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

14 matter went off the record at 2:38 p.m. and

15 resumed at 2:52 p.m.)

16 MR. KATZ: So we are getting back

17 going again and this is the working group

18 developing the Board and its contractors

19 security plan. We're starting into the next

20 procedure, which has to do with controlled

21 documents. Joe?

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. This is the
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1 working draft dated April 6, 2009. It is the

2 equivalent document for classification

3 procedures to OCAS PROC-011.

4 Both these documents, frankly,

5 reflect the multi-month rigorous interaction

6 between NIOSH and DOE on what would be

7 acceptable as far as classification procedures

8 from a Department of Energy standpoint. So

9 really, in a sense, there's not anything that

10 we're in a position to want to change or can

11 change. This is pretty much where DOE is

12 coming from relative to how they're going to

13 review the EEOICPA documents and

14 classification.

15 So what we did with the working

16 group is pretty much take PROC-011 and

17 materially did not change anything other than

18 to refer to the Board and its technical

19 support contractor as having this procedure

20 applied to it, which is a change that we made

21 in the scope of the document. That's section

22 2.0 on page 1.
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1 The purpose is the same. You

2 outline steps required to coordinate review of

3 documents to DOE's classification office for

4 review. The scope is the same. It covers all

5 the pertinent documents that we deal with --

6 site profiles, TBDs, SEC documents.

7 MR. KATZ: Let me suggest though,

8 the scope is different, actually, because in

9 your documents, those TBDs aren't in your

10 documents. I mean, some of this will apply to

11 SC&A documents and Board documents, but not to

12 the OCAS documents. Theirs are covered by

13 their docket.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

15 MR. KATZ: Just a minor point.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, yes.

17 With that exception then, the list is the same

18 list. Again, we don't want to change the

19 scope, but clearly, that's a NIOSH document.

20 References -- we used a longer

21 list of references -- the same ones, I think,

22 we had for the other procedure.
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1 MEMBER BEACH: You just need to

2 change that title.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. That should

4 be title 42. That's a typo.

5 I'm just looking at the two PROC

6 references. We took 11 out of the last one. Do

7 we take 10 out of this one?

8 Again, those are the references.

9 Going to the actual procedures -- I'm sorry.

10 This is, I guess this is the preface to the

11 general provisions.

12 The only thing we added to what

13 was in -- for the benefit of the people on the

14 phone -- this is the preface, which goes into

15 the documents being the subject of this

16 procedure that generated from assumed

17 unclassified documents or generated from

18 official use only export control information,

19 ECI, or unclassified controlled nuclear

20 information source material.

21 It goes into the flow diagram of

22 this procedure, which is appendix B to PROC-
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1 011, which we include as well, which was

2 included in the original DOE security plan, as

3 I recall. So that pretty much summarizes the

4 process we go through.

5 The only change we really made was

6 on the last statement, which says on the rare

7 occasion the documents created on DOE site

8 directly from unclassified documents must be

9 reviewed and marked prior to leaving that DOE

10 site.

11 A lot of times, we'll also send a

12 document to whomever is responsible for that

13 site. If the site is closed or unable to do a

14 classification review, we will send it by

15 courier or other appropriate means that DOE

16 stipulates. That's just a little bit of an

17 add-on there.

18 Procedure -- I believe that's

19 identical in terms of the process by which we

20 submit and DOE would review documents except

21 I think we got into -- no, I guess that's the

22 same.
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1 One thing that we've been talking

2 to DOE about is this question of submission of

3 electronic records. They have generally come

4 back and said yes, you've been giving us CDs,

5 but frankly, we'd rather have the hard copy.

6 So we've kind of stopped sending CDs and are

7 sending hard copies for that reason. So that's

8 the only thing I would comment, but I think

9 that wording is probably appropriate.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: They are treating

11 this the same way?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Yes, I think

13 it's just easier for them, rather than having

14 to handle electronic versions.

15 I've changed the reference from

16 OCAS to the Advisory Board technical support

17 contractor in that reference on what is 52.4

18 on each of the documents --

19 MEMBER BEACH: When you added 52.1,

20 you added something in that paragraph too.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Let me go back.

22 MEMBER BEACH: The export control
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1 information, ECI -- it's not in the OCAS

2 notes.

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: That was

4 something that NIOSH had left out of their

5 procedure that we have encountered at Hanford,

6 which needs to be handled in a special way.

7 MEMBER BEACH: I just didn't want

8 to go past it.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, thank you,

10 Kath. With that change to the Advisory Board

11 technical support contractor, the only thing

12 else that I added was something that would be

13 a routine communication to the Board.

14 I mean, I think to some extent,

15 all that is going to be is Nancy copying a

16 Board member, whoever the POC might be. That's

17 an option, meaning that I'm not sure if the

18 Board is aware of these transactions or not or

19 whether it needs to be, but I wanted to at

20 least provide -- since everyone else is

21 getting routinely informed of the status of

22 documents and issues.
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1 It seems like, certainly the Board

2 -- and it may just be somebody who calls a few

3 clearance who is familiar with DOE security

4 that might be the repository of these status

5 reports. It wouldn't create any extra work. We

6 do that now, sending things to Grady and other

7 wise keeping each other informed of what's in

8 the pipeline. It might be something that we

9 would give the Board as well. That's what that

10 addition is.

11 MR. KATZ: The DFO, I believe -- if

12 it's not secret information, the status, then

13 it looks like it would be good to let the DFO

14 know there's things in the pipeline that are

15 sitting there waiting.

16 DR. MAURO: The only thing I was

17 talking to Nancy about recently was with

18 regard to configuration control of the

19 documents. I think you folks in the institute

20 are putting the document number - tracking

21 number - when you move things out or to DOE?

22 MR. CALHOUN: Yes. It's so helpful.
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1 I was just -- as a recommendation to her.

2 That's all.

3 DR. MAURO: She told me she was

4 talking to you about that and I think it's a

5 great idea. I wish they would institute it

6 because very often there is confusion by DOE

7 of which particular document you're referring

8 to.

9 The title doesn't always help, but

10 a tracking number that Nancy would assign is

11 something that I think would really make life

12 easier. If you could work that into the

13 procedures, saying that a tracking number will

14 be assigned to all the documents that enter

15 the system. A unique tracking number would be

16 great.

17 MR. CALHOUN: You may have the same

18 document reviewed twice.

19 DR. MAURO: Oh, absolutely.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: Does your number note

21 that -- the second review, third review?

22 MR. CALHOUN: Well, I tried that.
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1 No, I've got an individual number from

2 everything -- every document that goes

3 through.

4 MR. ELLIOTT: So if it's re5 reviewed, that's a different tracking number.

6 MR. CALHOUN: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: That's correct, yes.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, section 5.3,

9 review of documents of head DOE site office or

10 headquarters review, I believe that's

11 identical.

12 MEMBER BEACH: Did you notice 5.3.1

13 isn't identical to that note, so you either

14 left out this document can be electronically

15 distributed for technical review? It was left

16 out and at first this section of 5 was just --

17 MR. KATZ: You copied the wrong

18 text into 5.3.1. You repeated the text above

19 instead of saying these documents can be

20 electronically distributed for technical

21 review and approval. That's what should be in

22 that procedures step.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: In 5.3.1.

2 MR. KATZ: 5.3.1.

3 MEMBER BEACH: Just a cut and paste

4 mistake.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, okay. Looks

6 like. Well, but there was no intent to really

7 change any of that process so we'll make sure

8 the wording matches.

9 MR. KATZ: The one issue that I

10 don't know whether this would be reflected in

11 here that Grady talked about being slightly

12 different than seems to show here, and then

13 I said that I raised with DOE is the issue of

14 documents that are sent to Privacy Act review

15 but are unchanged after Privacy Act review

16 except for redactions.

17 It's not reflected here. It's not

18 reflected in the OCAS procedure right now, but

19 it sounds like it's a practice with OCAS right

20 now and somewhat a practice by you.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: Our agreement with

22 DOE is to try to work with them on document
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1 specific circumstances and whether or not we

2 can avoid a review or not.

3 Hopefully, they'll let down at

4 some point in time and day they've seen enough

5 of this stuff. They got a satisfaction that

6 they only need to see this category of stuff.

7 MR. CALHOUN: And the out exists in

8 their clause.

9 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, the out exists

10 in their clause.

11 MR. KATZ: To decline a review, you

12 mean?

13 MR. CALHOUN: Yes. There's either

14 an as necessary or something in there.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: We've been dealing

16 with it case by case. The difference, I think,

17 is that we haven't memorialized it in a

18 declaration, e-mail declaration, that there's

19 no technical changes -- certification, which

20 I think is a good idea.

21 But the intent was the same. In

22 other words, we dropped out two formal names,
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1 put redact in there. Is that okay? I would

2 contact the security person or talk to Gina.

3 But I think that should be pinned down in

4 writing. I guess you have a --

5 MR. KATZ: So I have a question in

6 to her and depending on how DOE responds, it

7 may or may not be able to be reflected in the

8 procedure itself as opposed to simply being a

9 sort of side agreement operating both for OCAS

10 and for SEC.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think that

12 is an ambiguity.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: We didn't try to

14 force the issue in language going into ours,

15 but we had a discussion about it.

16 MR. KATZ: I wasn't sensitized.

17 This was completely my own doing, so I didn't

18 even realize it was --

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, it's been

20 working so we've left it alone. But Nancy has

21 been very good about saying we just went

22 through PA review and we dropped off two
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1 formal names. Is that okay?

2 I would check and they would say

3 yes. I mean, as long as you're not adding to

4 technical content.

5 MEMBER BEACH: I've got a question.

6 This OCAS form 006. Is that just -- what type

7 of a form is that? Is it a one page -- I was

8 just wondering if we could make that an

9 appendix.

10 MR. KATZ: What step is it?

11 MEMBER BEACH: It's the 7.1. It

12 just references the OCAS form 006.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: That's the cover

14 sheet that would go over to DOE for retouching

15 and revision.

16 MEMBER BEACH: I just wanted to

17 know what that was. Put something in ours as

18 an appendix or --

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think we

20 use a cover sheet, but there's no problem --

21 that certainly is no problem, that cover

22 sheet.
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1 MEMBER BEACH: So is that something

2 we would take out of ours? Because we've got

3 it listed in our procedure though because --

4 MEMBER PRESLEY: Didn't we agree to

5 do that though with DOE?

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. What Nancy

7 does is puts a cover sheet over it. I'm just

8 saying that whether it's --

9 MR. CALHOUN: It doesn't have to be

10 art work.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: It's just a cover

12 sheet.

13 MEMBER PRESLEY: But I think it's

14 one that we agreed on before. We said that

15 we'd go ahead and --

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, it's a DOE --

17 they crafted it. It has check boxes and

18 everything and they just sent it over.

19 MEMBER PRESLEY: They were familiar

20 with that.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, and that's

22 what --
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1 MEMBER BEACH: So that's the name

2 of --

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it's been

4 given that number by NIOSH but it's form that

5 DOE provided. I think it's even in their

6 security policy. It's included in that.

7 MEMBER BEACH: I just wasn't

8 familiar with what it looked like.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: So we would stay

10 with that.

11 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Are your issues

12 taken care of?

13 MR. KATZ: I'm sure I'll get a

14 response from DOE and then I'll communicate

15 accordingly with the working group as to

16 whether there is language we can include that

17 would be acceptable to DOE or not, to make

18 that adjustment. I did. I gave them a concrete

19 proposal, more or less.

20 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Okay, so both of

21 these are finalized then?

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, subject to
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1 comments that --

2 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Subject to our

3 copy edits and everything else like that.

4 We've made it through both of them.

5 John, you had some issues that you

6 wanted to bring up at this meeting?

7 MR. KATZ: Before we put the button

8 down -- process for this first.

9 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Sure.

10 MR. KATZ: Because since we are now

11 on April 21 and this week is slaughtered with

12 working group meetings.

13 But thinking about the Board

14 meeting ahead, if we want to have to a product

15 that everybody has given their individual

16 input to and SC&A has been able to

17 incorporate that and so on, that means

18 everybody getting their input to SC&A lickety19 split because we really only have a couple of

20 weeks of work time in between now and then.

21 So you may want to set up a date

22 by which SC&A needs its input from all of us
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1 and then a turn around time because we would

2 like to get a document to DOE to see that they

3 don't have any major issues or at least to see

4 that they'd be prepared at the Board meeting

5 to make any recommendations or requests that

6 they would want at that Board meeting so that

7 we can close the issue at the Board meeting

8 and have a final product after that Board

9 meeting.

10 MEMBER BEACH: Well, how soon, Joe,

11 will you be able to get a document to us based

12 on what we've talked about today?

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I certainly

14 want these specific text changes that are

15 being offered up. Those can get to me by COB

16 Tuesday, a week from today. I could turn this

17 around by that Friday.

18 So at the end of next week, you

19 would have the next version of this, which

20 should be enough time to confirm or offer any

21 final questions. So this would be sort of full

22 Board, I would think. Are you going to keep a
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1 work group or --

2 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Well, the way I

3 saw it was it was going to come back to us as

4 a work group and then we would be able to take

5 and send it out from there to the rest of the

6 body.

7 I guess my thing would be just to

8 review, do it to make sure that we haven't

9 missed something or some of the edit reviews

10 have a weekend or something like that to look

11 at, and then send it out to the full Board and

12 request any of their input into it and so

13 forth.

14 MEMBER PRESLEY: That is the first.

15 MR. KATZ: So if we get -- let's

16 see17 MR. FITZGERALD: This is this

18 Friday, so you want the next.

19 MR. KATZ: So on the 28th is --

20 28th, does everybody want to mark this down?

21 Does that work for everyone?

22 The only caveat is whether I get
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1 the response from DOE for that little piece or

2 not in that time frame. I can't be certain of

3 that, but for every else, absolutely, I will

4 get you.

5 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Along that one

6 little caveat, if we have to insert something

7 later on, I was just thinking we could do

8 that. But be able to go over the procedure and

9 so forth like that, you're feeling that you

10 could --

11 MR. FITZGERALD: That aspect is not

12 proceduralized anyway, so in a way, it's an

13 interpretation that we don't have to put in.

14 It would be nice to put in.

15 MR. KATZ: It would be nice to put

16 in if we can.

17 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Right.

18 MR. KATZ: So the 28th, by the

19 close of business, everybody will get comments

20 to Joe. And then that gives us -- Joe?

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think that

22 by COB Friday, I would hope to be able to turn
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1 it around and get it back to, maybe earlier,

2 depending on how long it takes.

3 MR. KATZ: That's May 1?

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

5 MR. KATZ: So May 1?

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. Back to the

7 workgroup for QA checks and just make sure

8 comments were reflected. I would send them

9 back to you as well, Ted, just to coordinate

10 and make sure that it came in right.

11 MEMBER PRESLEY: After May 1, don't

12 count --

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Don't count on

14 you?

15 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well, if you don't

16 want any comments from me, then don't worry

17 about it. That means I can't get to them. I

18 will be home until 6:00 in the morning on May

19 1.

20 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Part of the

21 thing is that classes of workgroup have agreed

22 on things that need to be changed. We just
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1 need to make sure it's put into the final

2 version the way we discussed, kind of a QA

3 check there or whatever you want to say.

4 MR. KATZ: So then, are you

5 thinking, Brad -- so that's Monday, May 4 --

6 say, you'd have the weekend and you have May

7 4. On May 5, is that when you're thinking

8 about sending it to the full Board?

9 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: What's May 5?

10 MR. KATZ: That gives you one whole

11 day basically.

12 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: There's not that

13 much to it besides the wills.

14 MR. KATZ: So then what I would do

15 too then is, at that point, that's when I

16 would be sending the document to DOE so that

17 they can get clear on what's in here.

18 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: You know, I'm

19 wondering if when Joe sends it to us, would it

20 be wrong to send it out to the whole Board

21 right then?

22 DR. MAURO: I have to say there's
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1 been enough -- in my perspective, there's

2 enough wordsmithing and insertion that leads

3 to changes -- new material, as we discussed

4 around the table, that it's probably a good

5 idea, once Joe takes his best cut at doing

6 that, that everyone has a chance to read

7 through.

8 MR. KATZ: One day to read through

9 it.

10 DR. MAURO: One day because I think

11 everyone has taken notes and, Ted, I know

12 you've contributed a lot too.

13 That will only take a day or two

14 and at least we'll know that this is what we

15 agreed on and then it moves out from there.

16 And from there, if you want to

17 send it in parallel to DOE and the Board at

18 the same time, I don't know --

19 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: I might actually

20 do that through Ted.

21 DR. MAURO: Okay.

22 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: To make sure
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1 that that's handled in that way right there.

2 I'll take care of the working group and

3 whatever else you could forward it on to NIOSH

4 or whatever else needs to.

5 MR. KATZ: Sure. Well, so May 4

6 we'll be able to review this and get any final

7 comments to Joe for anything that might have

8 been missed or whatever is different than

9 we've anticipated.

10 And then we'll be looking at May 5

11 to distribute this to the Board, to DOE, and

12 anyone else. So May 4, for example, we would

13 certainly get this to NIOSH and OCAS too.

14 And then DOE should be well

15 prepared for the Board meeting. They'll have

16 plenty of time to read it.

17 DR. MAURO: So in principle then,

18 the next time we all are together again will

19 be at the May meeting. The Board itself will

20 have had a chance, a week or two --

21 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Yes, we'll mark

22 it up.
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1 DR. MAURO: And it's at that

2 meeting where, in theory, we could finalize

3 it.

4 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Right.

5 DR. MAURO: And it could be voted

6 on and approved. The reason I'm pushing for

7 that is I'm especially interested in getting

8 to the point where we could start to interact

9 directly with DOE. That's why I'm doing that.

10 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: That's what

11 we're pushing for.

12 DR. MAURO: Right, and that's

13 great.

14 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Actually, to

15 tell you the truth, I'm going to expect to

16 have the Board comment back in to us actually

17 before then.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes, if they can

19 provide feedback, that's even better.

20 MR. KATZ: And if I can get

21 feedback back from DOE before the Board

22 meeting, certainly we would get that too.
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1 DR. MAURO: That would be great.

2 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Then that way,

3 if we have a comma in the wrong spot or wrong

4 hyphen in there, we can take care of that.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Too many wills --

6 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: What we want to avoid

8 is, let's say there's a major issue that the

9 Board has with the document. For it to be

10 engaged during the meeting, you know they're

11 not going to vote on it at that time. They'll

12 want to kick it back down to us and have us

13 look at this issue again.

14 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Right.

15 DR. MAURO: If we can get to a

16 point where by and large, everybody agrees in

17 principle, this is the document, the concept,

18 the approach, and then I'm certain there will

19 be some wordsmithing during the Board meeting.

20 But if we can get to that point,

21 that's why -- the extent to which we do get

22 feedback on wait a minute, we've got a fatal
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1 flaw here -- if some Board member sees it that

2 way. If we can get them to let us know and fix

3 that before the meeting, that would be great.

4 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Right, and we

5 will try as best to our abilities. But if

6 something unforeseen comes up that we'll be

7 able to deal with. But I have not heard

8 anything -- the only one was Dr. Melius.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: This is the second

10 pass so actually --

11 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: We've already

12 got them, and the reason I didn't bring that

13 procedure out is because I wanted everything

14 to be on record as we were going through the

15 process.

16 What we're doing is turning it

17 over to the SC&A point of contact, but the

18 working chair of each group is going to be

19 contacted because that was my main issue. I

20 wanted to know where things were going and

21 what was happening with it. I think that we

22 kind of did a pretty good draft here and these
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1 dates, we'll send them out as soon as we can.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: In terms of

3 distribution, I am basically providing the

4 material to the workgroup. Ted has to handle

5 the distribution. There's a lot of different

6 parties. I'm not going to -- I know Larry and

7 Grady are involved. I'm just saying to you --

8 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: The way I kind

9 of foresee it -- and if I'm wrong, correct me,

10 Ted -- but Ted will take care of all the

11 government entities and so forth and I will

12 look at it strictly from the workgroup.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: All right.

14 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: And I'll pass it

15 on.

16 MR. KATZ: And I can send it to the

17 full Board too.

18 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Yes, that would

19 be fine. I just don't want to have any PA

20 problems with it or anything. I keep getting

21 into, I don't know whether --

22 MR. KATZ: There's not an iota of
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1 PA in this.

2 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Okay.

3 MR. KATZ: It's strictly an

4 administrative document.

5 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Okay, so we'll

6 head out onto that. We're looking at the 28th.

7 We'll review it before. Should be out by May.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: May 5, COB, we

9 would hope to be able to send it to the Board

10 and to DOE.

11 MR. KATZ: That makes things tight

12 for Joe.

13 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Emily, do you

14 want to be sent a copy on all these things?

15 MS. HOWELL: Yes, either from you

16 or from Ted.

17 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Probably from

18 Ted. I've got your e-mail, I just -- I've

19 tried to attach a copy on a lot of things, but

20 it seems like you get maybe four or five

21 copies of the same thing. I just wanted to

22 make sure.
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1 MR. KATZ: I'll certainly --

2 absolutely, I'll take care of the whole

3 distribution issue.

4 MEMBER PRESLEY: With the 5th

5 being a Monday, I'll be there and ready to go

6 at that time.

7 MS. HOWELL: That's a Tuesday.

8 DR. MAURO: One of the areas that

9 we were talking about, and I think you'd

10 probably agree that we leave alone for now,

11 and that is this business about talking to

12 DOE. During the meeting now or at the meeting,

13 we talked about this idea of the PA end of the

14 process, the very back end of the process, PA

15 has redacted and made certain changes that it

16 hasn't done. Right now, the way we're doing it

17 is -- are we going to be looking to discuss

18 this issue?

19 In other words, how do we get

20 closure on that with DOE? In other words, if

21 you and Nancy work on a document, you edit it,

22 and it's your judgement and Nancy's judgement
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1 that listen, we just took out a few names.

2 Right now, do we communicate this

3 to DOE before we put it up on the web, to make

4 sure that it's okay with them? I mean, I think

5 we left that a little bit ambiguous.

6 MR. KATZ: I think that's the issue

7 that I addressed.

8 DR. MAURO: And what is the answer,

9 sir?

10 MR. KATZ: I sent a communication

11 to DOE.

12 DR. MAURO: Okay, so that's the way

13 we're going.

14 MR. KATZ: I will await their

15 response. If they respond in a timely fashion

16 that we can work it into these procedures and

17 if they are amenable to working it into these

18 procedures, then we will work it into these

19 procedures.

20 If not, we'll be silent on this

21 issue just as the documents are silent right

22 now on this issue.
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1 DR. MAURO: Okay, I missed that.

2 MR. KATZ: We'll work with DOE on

3 this issue going forward, but on sort of a

4 parallel path.

5 DR. MAURO: Okay.

6 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: This brings to

7 close these procedures until we can address

8 them again. But John, you sent me an e-mail in

9 there this week that you want to discuss Q

10 clearances and stuff or is that still on?

11 DR. MAURO: We're okay.

12 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: We're good with

13 that?

14 DR. MAURO: Yes. Actions are being

15 taken to -- just real quickly, there were

16 three areas that are important. One is the re17 investigation of yourself, Kathy, and Abe. Is

18 that what you were referring to?

19 MR. KATZ: I'm just saying I

20 wouldn't really discuss it.

21 DR. MAURO: You wouldn't talk of

22 that here?
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1 MR. KATZ: Well, because particular

2 individuals --

3 DR. MAURO: Oh, I'm sorry. There's

4 a re-investigation. There are the new q's and

5 that there are the people that need to get

6 through the process so that they can get their

7 computer and the key fob.

8 I was concerned that -- SC&A, on

9 the receiving end of this, we're not sure

10 whether all three aspects of this was -- were

11 moving forward in a timely way.

12 I've been assured that everything

13 is moving forward in a timely way, so the e14 mail I sent out recently regarding this matter

15 is well in hand. So I have no concerns.

16 CHAIRMAN CLAWSON: Okay. I just

17 wanted to make sure because you had said that

18 you wanted to have this on there, so I'll

19 delete that out.

20 Is there any further witness that

21 needs to come before this workgroup? Anybody

22 on the phone have anything that they would
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1 like to say? If there's silence, I'll take it.

2 We're complete then.

3 MR. KATZ: Good work, everybody.

4 Thank you, for everybody on the phone.

5 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

6 matter went off the record at 3:21 p.m.)

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

Abe 270:17

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104:6 163:16,18

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ambiguity 234:17

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ambiguous 269:5

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analogous 152:11

analyses 200:3

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177:10 179:19,20

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210:14 238:5

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109:19 110:18

113:21 125:8

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138:17 139:4

142:22 154:19

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159:20 160:11

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231:10,17 234:15

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259:1,6,9 263:16

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backtrack 175:16

back-end 19:15

bad 215:16

badging 136:6,9

144:5,11,13,14

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146:2,16 147:5

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balking 81:8

Barrie 2:19 5:20,20

6:1

based 36:9 72:14

88:20 91:3 125:18

141:13 170:8

256:11

baseline 34:5 68:9

69:15 70:9 71:16

72:12 74:18 76:7

76:18 77:4 118:16

119:10 153:19

baselined 74:11

baselining 98:14

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bibliographic 60:8

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big 63:21 72:7

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billing 202:22

birthdates 140:7

bit 6:19 10:4,21

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69:2 70:4 134:1

139:22 145:10

152:3,3 176:2

185:7 188:22

210:21 222:14

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bits 158:19

blah 84:13,13,13

149:11,11,11

blank 108:8

blanket 179:18

Blockson 226:5,6

board 1:5,8 3:4,5,8

3:19 4:4 7:5,19

9:2,6,21 10:11

11:1,19 12:5,7

13:7 21:9 23:2,5

28:10 29:2,7,8,17

29:19 30:7,22

31:5 32:5,16 33:5

33:19 34:3 35:1

35:12,12,17 36:10

36:21 37:12,16,22

38:4,7,15,16,18

39:11,17 42:2

43:15 45:2,15

47:15 49:18 50:1

50:7,9 51:1 54:11

54:16,21,21 55:3

55:6,10,16 56:1,9

56:20 57:11 67:9

72:14 73:4,6

76:15 79:22 80:9

80:20 82:6 86:7

86:10 87:8,16

88:15,16 90:16,20

91:1 92:3,8,10

93:11 94:7,11,14

95:4,15 97:18

106:17 113:19

116:6,11 117:3

124:1 128:18

129:16 133:9

134:18 135:3

136:2 139:12,15

139:15 142:16

150:13 151:22

156:20 160:4

162:17 163:13

168:10 193:7,7

199:1 200:15,16

200:22 201:2,5

210:10 217:5

222:6,12 226:8

227:15 239:7,18

240:18 241:11

244:16 245:10,13

245:16,18 246:1,9

255:13 256:4,6,7

256:8,22 257:11

260:8,20 261:17

262:11,15,19

263:16,21 264:9

264:19 265:1

266:17 267:9

boards 220:8

board's 7:3 8:21

9:21 12:6,8,18

35:18 86:17 89:2

113:21 168:12

222:10 223:21

Bob 162:7

body 194:20 257:6

bogging 40:19

boilerplate 205:15

book 208:17 239:1

books 129:21

bore 24:11 146:12

bottom 8:3 50:15

109:12 127:17

boundary 150:22

box 132:3 153:5,9

153:14 154:2,14

154:19 155:1,1

158:7 160:21,22

226:14

boxes 60:11 99:18

211:2 253:17

brackets 108:1

Brad 3:20 6:16

17:18 55:8 79:22

113:5,9 229:7

260:5

Bradley 1:14,17

Brad's 56:13

Brant 77:6 78:13

breach 39:3

breadth 181:18

break 20:19 111:17

113:10,12 124:13

167:18,20,22

168:4 239:9,10

breaks 69:18

breathe 48:18

breathing 6:4

brief 134:21 150:19

166:5

bring 10:9 37:22

54:6 60:21 61:8

129:22 186:17

208:12 255:6

265:12

brings 270:6

broad 132:19

broken 14:16

Brookhaven 69:4

75:20 80:14 81:7

102:22

brought 8:12 54:7

budget 98:18 100:6

bungled 152:3

burdened 20:3

burdening 20:2

burdensome 19:22

154:1

business 84:16

238:14 258:19

268:11

button 6:7,10 255:7

buy 138:14

C

C 3:1 182:14,15,21

183:1,4

Calhoun 2:5 4:8,8

8:14 16:12,17,21

27:8 70:21 71:21

72:2 102:17

108:15,21 109:15

110:21 111:4

112:13 113:1

141:7 154:9,18

157:19 158:5

215:11,20 216:5,8

216:14,18,20

217:2,7,11 218:16

236:17 238:22

246:22 247:17,22

248:6 250:7,13

253:9

call 3:18 4:6 6:3,11

7:13 8:20 39:15

47:19 48:1,3,4

68:8 101:22 102:1

108:13 115:1

118:21 187:13

207:12 214:8

called 27:2 222:11

236:21

calling 119:10

219:15

calls 70:5 131:2,3

246:2

cap 230:12

capabilities 62:8

163:14
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capsules 82:5

capture 19:14

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100:2 101:8 102:2

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121:7,16 123:11

123:21 124:9

125:6 126:15

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153:19 154:7,10

154:15 158:7,13

162:9,16,20 167:7

167:7 190:1

captured 27:16

154:19,20 159:6

159:11 163:1

captures 78:20

163:4

care 82:2 108:8

127:12 149:10

219:7 230:6

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careful 104:20

142:17 170:17

carefully 31:16

case 9:15 29:9

35:11 37:8 61:17

62:22,22 63:10

66:20 71:1 116:11

162:18 171:13,20

172:16 226:3

250:16,16

cases 9:18 73:5

98:8 110:15 115:1

126:2,4 165:20

173:18

catch 71:8

catches 71:9

categories 19:10

category 142:13

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cause 86:19 89:22

cautionary 182:9

187:15 190:2

cautioning 183:22

caveat 139:2,6

142:1 257:22

258:6

cc 92:17 220:9

cc'ed 50:4 51:10

52:7

CDC 204:8,9

CDs 244:4,6

CENTERS 1:2

central 211:17,19

212:12

centrally 212:2

certain 14:20 15:15

15:17 38:22 48:15

89:3,13 95:11

100:14 106:10

131:12 136:12

189:14 192:15

213:20 258:2

264:18 268:15

certainly 9:17

26:16 28:2 30:11

30:17,20 31:5,7

35:2 37:14 40:16

42:22 52:12 59:22

62:6 73:1,15

84:21 86:11 88:15

89:21 103:2 113:4

131:9 133:3

145:17 156:1,11

159:2 160:18

166:13 171:10

173:6,7,18 175:2

175:20 179:6

184:2 189:21

195:15 198:2

205:17 209:17

210:4 224:21

234:12,14 235:13

246:1 252:21

256:13 262:13

263:22 268:1

certification

110:16 111:3,5

250:19

cetera 39:2,9 42:1

42:2 56:16,21

84:9 140:8 205:1

CFR 24:19

chain 161:20,22

chair 3:21 30:8

31:1 32:6 34:21

35:1,22 39:4,12

49:7 56:2,17 73:5

73:6 265:18

chairman 1:14,17

3:20 6:18 10:8

14:13 16:5 17:20

18:9,17 29:8 31:4

32:3 33:5 37:20

42:6,10 44:22

54:6 55:21 73:17

87:1 88:2 96:4

113:10 114:7,11

135:4 141:22

146:8 148:11

149:3,15 161:17

166:21 167:4,19

168:1 187:17

188:7,11 190:17

229:22 230:1

237:8,16 239:8

254:11,20 255:2,9

257:2 258:5,17

259:20 260:9,12

260:18 261:19,22

262:21 263:4,10

263:14 264:2,6,14

265:4,11 266:8,14

266:18 267:2,5,13

267:17 270:6,12

271:16

chairperson 79:22

chairs 29:12 35:6

37:15 40:17,18

challenge 59:2

challenges 31:7

chance 69:10 114:6

129:6 261:6

262:20

change 49:3 78:8

103:6 106:8

112:18 132:7

224:15 228:6

237:5 238:14

240:10,11,17,20

241:18 242:2

243:5 245:10

249:7

changed 107:15

244:15 259:22

changes 7:11 10:19

40:4 106:5,22

107:4,7,14 108:3

108:19 109:7,13

109:17 110:7,17

112:21 136:17

250:19 256:14

261:3 268:15

character 193:2

charge 100:8

charity 190:18

check 3:13 104:3

114:5 153:22

252:2 253:17

260:3

checked 199:12

checking 78:22

116:12

checklist 189:17

190:8,12

checks 104:7 259:7

choice 20:4

choose 57:7

chose 28:16

chosen 124:11

Cincinnati 1:13

circle 217:13

circumstances

182:2 185:8 250:1

cite 153:1

cited 26:1 67:5

137:10,15 139:10

cites 136:22

citizenship 140:7

clad 182:1

clarification's 8:16

8:17

clarified 50:13

165:12,13

clarifies 237:14

clarify 18:19 28:9

120:8 146:14

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classes 259:21

classification 3:11

12:15 23:10 26:2

58:1 84:13 90:6,8

94:22 96:9,16,22

107:5 150:14,18

159:4,8 160:6,8

160:10,16 161:12

171:2,14,17

175:15 176:10

202:2 231:6 236:2

240:2,7,14 241:3

243:14

classified 6:22

13:13 25:12 72:20

74:22 75:1 102:12

133:20,21 134:3

140:13 141:1,1

150:6,11 159:12

171:20 172:3

173:11,19 174:15

179:12 190:20

191:2 194:2 216:7

230:21 236:11

classified/control...

95:6

clause 250:8,10

Clawson 1:14,17

3:20,20 6:18 10:8

14:13 16:5 17:20

18:9,17 37:20

42:6,10 44:22

54:6 55:21 73:17

87:1 88:2 96:4

113:10 114:7,11

135:4 141:22

146:8 148:11

149:3,15 161:17
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cleaner 39:21

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clear 30:14 36:6

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clearance 36:17

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clearly 11:18 24:14

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close 77:6 97:14

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closed 192:14

243:13

closely 77:1,5

closets 222:22

closure 268:20

cloth 28:12

COB 256:15

258:22 267:8

coding 158:13

cognizance 35:13

coherent 12:22

collect 11:22 12:1

58:13 59:10 76:10

119:14 172:22

collected 14:2 59:5

68:17 75:9 78:4

81:17 102:11,12

119:7 125:17,18

133:21 164:3

177:17 217:5

235:19

collecting 35:9

37:18 103:1

collection 102:19

collective 75:1

collects 78:10

come 10:21 25:15

26:19 40:2 54:18

68:20 74:3 78:12

86:9 96:1 98:7

101:16,19 102:14

104:14 128:11

132:3,15 133:1,3

139:7 174:1

178:12,16 194:3,4

196:18 210:15,19

216:11 220:10

228:11 244:3

257:3 271:21

comes 5:17 46:10

82:2 93:15 100:13

101:17 105:22

185:21 206:15

213:13 222:20

265:6

coming 20:18

21:18 41:5 74:7

75:12 79:5 81:11

96:13 103:9 112:1

112:7,8 118:20

140:6 178:13

224:1 240:12

comma 264:3

command 161:20

161:22

commend 228:18

229:17

comment 21:10

22:1 55:8,13

83:16 103:22

122:7 124:6

163:17 195:3

201:11,19 209:19

244:8 263:16

commentary 91:5

commented 11:11

21:20 112:16

commenting

112:19

comments 11:2

18:5 72:15 106:4

162:14 217:14

239:6 255:1

258:19 259:8,16

262:7

commitment 53:5

commitments

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common 79:11

135:20

communicate 41:3

43:18 47:2 69:15

77:1 80:5 87:8,15

92:2 110:20 122:2

151:21 254:14

269:2

communicated

99:13

communicates 91:1

communicating

79:20 92:9 129:13

152:7

communication

40:17 41:4 130:13

135:2 151:20

245:13 269:10

communications

30:16 49:20 51:10

56:18 92:17

130:15

community 17:14

company 234:8

235:11

comparable 26:7

compare 9:12

97:13 128:3 213:5

compensated

169:16

compile 172:6

213:6

complete 42:19

67:7 102:20,21

112:17 158:16

272:2

completed 137:16

completely 40:15

52:5 56:18 85:21

102:18 251:17

compliance 3:9

compliant 168:13

comply 27:9

components 86:8

composite 219:21

compressed 219:17

computer 199:8

208:11,13,20

209:10,21 271:7

computers 207:13

207:14 208:2

209:20 210:3

227:15

concept 264:17

concern 110:4

177:12 206:21

concerned 9:19

88:4 122:4 271:8

concerning 67:15

concerns 180:6

186:7 271:15

concrete 254:18

concur 52:5

concurrent 98:14

condition 171:1

conditional 180:10

conditions 151:1

conduct 13:22

64:17,19,21 65:4

84:1 94:8 117:8

168:20 169:12

conducted 65:1

90:11 118:18

167:15 169:14

conducting 65:6

170:15

conducts 65:2

cone 208:22

configuration

246:18

confirm 102:19

122:16 127:6

256:20

confirmation

147:11

confusing 46:2

48:6 143:21 238:5

confusion 247:6

conglomerated

174:11

connected 77:7

connections 149:20

150:7

connotation 88:11

consent 177:4

consider 28:15

136:12

considered 199:16

234:15

considering 17:14

consistent 12:11,21

13:10 14:4 45:20

97:7

construct 17:14
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contain 204:3,13

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Contamination

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context 92:21 96:1

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continual 130:12

continue 114:12

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continuity 207:4

continuum 19:11

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contract 160:16

195:19,20 198:3,3

199:2 202:22

206:22

contracting 49:17

50:11 206:21

contractor 2:16

6:14 12:8 13:8

23:5 29:3,21 37:5

38:9 40:1 50:1

55:15 82:7 90:17

90:21 92:4 93:12

94:11,15 95:4,16

116:7 117:4

156:21 160:7,12

161:3,8 162:1,2,5

162:8 169:17

210:11 211:9

214:22 223:10,13

240:19 244:17

245:11

contractors 12:5,6

12:19 23:2,3

64:16,18 98:21

207:2 239:18

contracts 31:12

contractual 203:8

contractually

211:21

contrast 28:21

contrasting 235:22

contributed 170:11

261:12

control 1:2 90:6,8

94:22 206:17

227:13 235:13

242:18 244:22

246:18

controlled 27:2

97:3 229:12

239:20 242:19

convened 1:13

convenient 59:6

convening 168:11

conversation

202:20 211:15

238:17

conversations

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convey 47:18

conveyed 170:18

conveying 174:7

cool 109:19

coordinate 29:3

30:9,10 31:14

50:16 51:17 57:13

58:2 65:5 69:14

72:21 77:1 80:6

94:13 95:20

117:15 119:5

144:12 151:11,21

159:7 241:2 259:9

coordinated 31:16

31:22 73:1 100:3

231:1

coordinating 67:17

79:7 93:10 94:4

118:4

coordination 13:6

83:10 90:15 96:17

97:17 98:12

103:13,19 119:22

133:9 136:7 146:1

146:7 152:12

162:17,19

coordinations

130:16

copied 52:14 73:1

76:14 79:2 117:11

248:17

copies 62:6 66:1,14

152:12 163:19

213:19 244:7

267:21

copy 10:14 18:2,7

41:15 56:17 61:7

61:7,13,17 64:10

73:18 79:3 113:7

122:8,21 123:13

123:13,14,15

131:20 148:12,12

153:13 163:2,7

166:17 215:21

233:15 244:5

255:3 267:14,19

copying 56:14

245:15

copy-editing 17:22

18:14

corollary 156:1

corporate 202:11

205:19 213:11,14

214:14

correct 38:13 105:9

112:2 209:13

216:16 248:7

266:9

corrected 204:11

205:19 231:18

corrections 193:21

correspondence

41:16

corresponding 9:5

59:15 117:7

corresponds 12:10

121:14 201:4

cost 99:14

counsel 11:5

189:22

count 259:12,13

counterpart 101:1

counterparts 79:14

couple 28:8 31:3

70:5 71:4 95:18

121:17 170:6

220:19 224:8

255:19

courier 243:15

course 32:15 58:4

130:18 132:12

151:4 162:14

169:22 174:21

197:20 199:9

206:13 217:16

221:9 226:9 232:2

232:3

court 204:1

courtesy 148:12,12

cover 23:1 232:17

252:13,20,21

253:7,11

covered 12:4 22:8

25:14,19,20 62:17

62:17 87:19 231:7

231:13 232:18

236:9,15 241:12

covering 26:10

190:19

covers 238:2 241:4

co-party 133:11

craft 177:5

crafted 91:11

180:11 253:17

create 228:3 246:5

created 195:18

243:7

criminal 186:2

critical 79:21 130:7

147:4 149:21

cropped 186:18

cross 129:9

crossed 27:15

crucial 225:12

crudest 209:2

cry 186:13

curious 111:19

112:11 144:15

184:20

current 43:3 44:4

57:14 64:12 82:14

92:12 169:5,13,13

170:20

currently 11:6

cut 24:12 231:16

232:1 249:3 261:5

cutting 28:11

cycle 171:16

cycled 195:5

cycles 197:17

D

D 3:1 182:14,15,21

daily 51:5 130:15

data 6:21 7:11 8:19

8:22 9:18 11:15

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notice 27:1 41:13

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notifications 173:6

notify 109:4 117:6

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notifying 50:16

67:10 78:19

noting 85:16

notion 26:16

103:17 118:3

128:19 132:7

153:3,17 181:22

nowadays 179:13

200:12

nuclear 242:19

number 13:17

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66:8 75:22 76:1

98:9 109:10

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numbers 109:10

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numerable 209:16

O

O 3:1 75:7 116:13

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object 91:11

objectives 12:11

obligation 34:17

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obligations 34:7

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obstacles 70:15

obtained 76:4

obviates 178:3

obviously 23:1 28:7

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OCAS 12:12 15:1

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138:7,11,13 142:3

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166:4,18 189:10

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252:6,12 262:13

OCAS's 110:12

OCAS-4 239:4

occasion 146:18

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OCCUPATION...

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occur 181:20

occurred 33:3

offer 176:18,20

177:7 180:12,17

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256:20

offered 66:21

256:15

office 33:10 39:11

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officer 49:17 96:9

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official 1:22 2:4

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officially 43:13

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off-putting 189:1

off-site 14:2

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okay 4:4 5:6,9,15

11:13 14:14 15:4

17:4 22:15,15,17

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26:15 27:14,17

32:11 33:20 34:2

35:20 55:4 61:3

67:2 70:16 71:3

72:13 82:4 87:21

88:2 91:6 92:19

92:19 93:22 96:5

101:13 106:1,7

109:20 110:17

111:13 113:2,9

114:13 124:17

126:3 127:15

131:8 135:11

139:1 145:16

152:4,17,18

158:11,21 159:22

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168:16 172:11

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184:19 185:14

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208:5 214:4 218:3

241:14 245:9

248:8 249:5 251:1

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261:21 267:2,5

269:4,12 270:1,5

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old 221:15

older 45:3

once 33:1 34:2,14

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99:3 100:10 105:5

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ongoing 34:13

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online 79:5

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open 24:16 60:4

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option 63:10

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ORAU 2:5,6,8 4:7

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original 9:13 12:3

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originally 63:14

originals 61:19

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OSTI 116:19

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outcome 130:19

outline 88:13

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Pantex 148:4,15

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PARTICIPANTS

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participation

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PREVENTION

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pre-approved

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prior 90:7 95:1

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Privacy 173:7

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53:11,18 62:11

64:13 86:14 87:19

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165:2 170:4 171:9

171:10,17 188:15

189:19 190:6

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197:15 198:7

201:13 206:17

207:19 209:6

222:17 223:5,8,16

225:12 226:5,6

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232:7,19 233:3,17

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PROC-010 8:21

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28:21 29:14 30:15

30:19 36:13 37:1

58:9 59:15 82:12

88:20 93:2 94:3

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135:19 137:15

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PROC-011 12:14

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109:22 149:20

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240:3,16

prodded 229:21

produce 231:16

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231:7

product 80:19

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256:8

products 19:15

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profile 43:11 45:6

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115:21 120:11

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program 24:1

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programs 204:18

progress 68:18

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project 39:11 131:2

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promises 25:19

proper 108:1

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110:19 112:4

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178:17 228:15

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