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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON BROOKHAVEN NATIONAL LAB

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

FEBRUARY 21, 2012

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened 

telephonically at 11:00 a.m., Eastern Standard 

Time, Josie Beach, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT:

JOSIE BEACH, Chair

HENRY ANDERSON, Member

BRADLEY P. CLAWSON, Member

WANDA I. MUNN, Member 

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

TIM ADLER, ORAU Team

STEPHANIE BOGART

RON BUCHANAN, SC&A

GRADY CALHOUN, DCAS

JASON DAVIS, DCAS

NORA DETWEILER

JOE FALCO

JOE FITZGERALD, SC&A

JIM GREEN

JENNY LIN, HHS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

PAUL RUHTER, ORAU Team

JOHN STIVER, SC&A

DENNIS STRENGE, ORAU Team
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Welcome and Roll-Call/Introductions........ 4 

SEC Petition (83.14) Evaluation Report

Approved January 6, 2012 ............. 6 

Work Group Recommendations................ 26

Discussion on the ER Matrix............... 30

Remaining TBD Issues...................... 45

Path Forward for TBD Issue Resolution/

TBD Revisions ....................... 81

 

Adjournment............................... 86
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (11:01 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: Let's get started, 

4 beginning with roll call. We're speaking 

5 about a specific site so please speak to 

6 conflict of interest, as well, and we'll begin 

7 roll call with Board Members.

8 (Roll call.)

9 Okay, very good. That does it for 

10 roll call.

11 Let me mention for everybody, 

12 there is an agenda for this meeting. It's on 

13 the NIOSH website under the Board section, the 

14 OCAS part of the NIOSH website under the Board 

15 section, under Meetings.

16 And there's also a couple 

17 documents associated with the meeting that 

18 should be there, too.

19 One of them is an Evaluation 

20 Report from NIOSH and the other is an issues 

21 matrix related to Site Profile issues from 

22 SC&A.
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1 And otherwise, let's get started. 

2 Let me remind everyone on the line, please 

3 mute your phone except when you're addressing 

4 the group.

5 If you don't have a mute button, 

6 if you press * and then 6, that'll mute your 

7 phone for this call, and then you press * and 

8 then 6 again to take your phone off of mute.

9 And please do not put this call on 

10 hold at any point, but hang up and dial back 

11 in if you need to do that. And, Josie, it's 

12 your agenda.

13 CHAIR BEACH: Thanks, Ted. The 

14 agenda is posted as Ted said, but I'm just 

15 going to go through it very briefly for anyone 

16 that may not have it.

17 The main purpose of the call today 

18 is to go over the 83.14 Evaluation Report that 

19 was issued on January 6. And I think that 

20 NIOSH will take the lead on that.

21 Then we're going to go ahead and 

22 have public questions and comments, along with 
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1 Work Group recommendations.

2 When we're finished with that, I 

3 would like to go into just a brief discussion 

4 on the ER matrix to make sure that we've 

5 actually covered everything that we came up 

6 with at our last Work Group meeting. I 

7 believe it was January 21 of last year, or 

8 February, no, January.

9 Okay, and then the matrix for the 

10 TBD, cover those items, and then look at a 

11 path forward for the issues and possibly some 

12 tasking for SC&A. So NIOSH, Grady, if you're 

13 ready?

14 MR. CALHOUN: Sure. Basically 

15 what had happened is, after we had presented 

16 the previous Evaluation Report, we started 

17 into the task of evaluating where we were and 

18 looking at how firm the previously established 

19 end date of 1980 was.

20 And as you may or may not know, 

21 we've had some difficulty and it was just a 

22 timeliness issue of getting responses back 
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1 from Brookhaven, but they've since fixed that 

2 problem.

3 But during the course of getting 

4 those responses back, I started doing a, you 

5 know, I guess a little further comparison to 

6 try to find out the, to make myself feel 

7 better really about the end date.

8 And basically what I did is I went 

9 through and I kind of selectively took cases 

10 that had filed for our program and I looked at 

11 cases with employment only after 1980.

12 I went through and looked at their 

13 CATI interview to see if they said that they 

14 had been monitored for urinalysis and whatnot.

15 And then I went back and looked at 

16 the response that we received from Brookhaven 

17 and any other dosimetry data that was in their 

18 files.

19 And what really kind of gave me 

20 pause was that I initially had found a case, I 

21 want to say it was from 1989, and what 

22 happened is Brookhaven reported that the 
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1 individual wasn't monitored.

2 But we had captured monitoring 

3 data for that individual, so that gave me a 

4 little bit of a reason to look into this a 

5 little bit deeper.

6 From this smaller subset of 

7 individuals who worked after 1980, I found at 

8 least two more cases that were pretty much the 

9 same, that Brookhaven reported that the 

10 individual wasn't monitored but we had data.

11 You know, you might initially 

12 think that, well, we have data so that's all 

13 good, but there's no way that we can claim 

14 that we've captured every bit of data on that 

15 site. As a matter of fact, we know we 

16 haven't.

17 So we had to go back and look 

18 through, really it was just a complete re-look 

19 again and try to find some indication as to 

20 when we felt that we were getting adequate 

21 dosimetry records back.

22 This has never been a problem with 
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1 external records, external dosimetry. This 

2 has only been a problem with internal 

3 dosimetry results.

4 So basically we went back through, 

5 looked at some of the programmatic issues or 

6 documents that were in place and we came up 

7 with, I haven't found anything post-1989 where 

8 that type of discrepancy exists.

9 But I had to find something that 

10 was indicative of a change that was made or 

11 some kind of vote of confidence in the program 

12 documentation or documentation program at 

13 Brookhaven, so we found that there were some 

14 additional documents out there.

15 As a matter of fact, there was an 

16 audit that was done in December of '93, at 

17 least published in December of '93, that 

18 stated that Brookhaven was in compliance with 

19 their internal and external dosimetry program 

20 as well as their records retention program so 

21 that really is one of the primary drivers for 

22 the end date of 1993.
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1 Now one thing I'll just mention is 

2 we've never really thought that Brookhaven had 

3 a poor RadCon program.

4 It seems that they've always had 

5 monitoring there and it was done at a high 

6 level. Some of it was incident-driven. Some 

7 of it was routine.

8 But our issue is that we're not 

9 getting the records, and it appears that 

10 they've had a difficult time in finding the 

11 records, as well, until what we believe is 

12 about 1993.

13 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, thank you.

14 MR. CALHOUN: Just as a side note, 

15 are you hearing a terrible echo, because I 

16 hear an echo when I speak.

17 CHAIR BEACH: I do not. This is 

18 Josie.

19 MR. CALHOUN: Okay, good, all 

20 right.

21 MEMBER MUNN: I hear a little bit 

22 of an echo from him but it's not bad --
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1 MR. CALHOUN: All right.

2 MEMBER MUNN: -- where I'm 

3 receiving.

4 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, SC&A, do you 

5 have any comments on the 83.14?

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Not particularly. 

7 I think this certainly parallels one of, 

8 certainly two of our key findings in the Site 

9 Profile review we did in 2009.

10 And, of course, in our evaluation 

11 we had raised questions about, on 1980 there 

12 were certainly some questions about the 

13 availability of records up through the early 

14 '90s.

15 So at least so far as, you know, 

16 what Grady has just discussed, that pretty 

17 much is in agreement with what we've seen as 

18 well.

19 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, thank you, 

20 Joe. Work Group Members, any comments, 

21 questions?

22 MEMBER MUNN: Josie, this is Wanda 
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1 and I guess I can't help but comment. I 

2 understand all of the bases for this 83.14.

3 But it is very, almost tragic to 

4 me that a group of such outstanding scientists 

5 who have contributed so much to the science 

6 and to the medical knowledge, especially of 

7 the nuclear science field, has to be placed in 

8 an SEC category because of what appears to me 

9 to be more of clerical shortcomings than 

10 anything else.

11 We are such a science-based 

12 activity in what we are purporting to do in 

13 the Board that it just seems overwhelmingly 

14 sad that people who probably know more about 

15 the health effects of radiation than any 

16 similar-sized group of people, possibly on the 

17 planet, and who certainly would have taken 

18 every logical precaution in real life to see 

19 that they and their coworkers were not 

20 unreasonably exposed to high doses of 

21 radiation, that we cannot now discover that 

22 because, as I categorized it earlier, what 
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1 appears to be from the outside clerical 

2 shortcomings.

3 And that, of course, does not 

4 affect what we have to do here, but it seems 

5 very unfortunate.

6 MEMBER ROESSLER: Josie, this is 

7 Gen.

8 CHAIR BEACH: Hi, Gen.

9 MEMBER ROESSLER: I have a 

10 question and I know we've talked about this 

11 site for a long time.

12 But just to kind of refresh my 

13 memory, and Grady can probably answer this, 

14 can you summarize for me the fundamental 

15 difference, the programmatic difference, 

16 between the records-keeping for the internal, 

17 the in vivo and in vitro measurements, and the 

18 external?

19 You've said you have really no 

20 questions about accessibility of records for 

21 the external. Certainly there are a lot of 

22 questions about internal. What was the 
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1 difference between the two?

2 MR. CALHOUN: Well, basically the 

3 issue is that from the beginning of time, 

4 basically, we have seen that the external 

5 dosimetry records were kept in one location. 

6 The internal dosimetry records were not. And 

7 I'm not being flippant here, but literally we 

8 have found boxes under people's desks of 

9 internal dosimetry records.

10 And they seem to have been kept on 

11 a project-by-project basis and there were 

12 little stashes of these throughout the site 

13 and they were never really centralized.

14 We know that in 1980 we had 

15 actually seen, or just before that, we'd 

16 actually seen a memo that had gone out that 

17 formed part of our basis for picking that date 

18 where they stressed the need for centralizing 

19 internal dosimetry and whole body count, 

20 specifically, records.

21 But that doesn't seem to have been 

22 done until closer to the late '80s and early 
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1 1990s.

2 MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, thanks, 

3 Grady. And I think as a Work Group, we have 

4 offered, well, first of all, I want to say I 

5 agree with what Wanda has said, totally.

6 And from that perspective, I think 

7 what we were trying to do as a Work Group is 

8 offer many opportunities for the Brookhaven 

9 personnel, particularly the ones who were 

10 involved in the era in question, to give us a 

11 document or to give us some indication that 

12 there were some changes following the 

13 identification of the need for centralization.

14 And we had teleconferences with 

15 workers. We've looked at many records. I 

16 have not seen that.

17 And I think that's a key point 

18 here, that until, as you identified, somewhere 

19 into the early '90s that sort of thing didn't 

20 seem to happen for the internal dosimetry 

21 records.

22 CHAIR BEACH: Gen, that's a good 
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1 point. Thank you for bringing that up. I was 

2 going to ask Grady if you could just go into a 

3 little more detail of why you chose the 

4 December 31, 1993 as the cutoff?

5 MR. CALHOUN: Well, basically we 

6 have found, you know, at least some 

7 correspondence where they have talked about 

8 the centralization.

9 But I think the main one was an 

10 external audit that was done and they looked 

11 at the internal and external dosimetry 

12 programs.

13 And they specifically mentioned 

14 that Brookhaven was in compliance with the 

15 radiological records requirements of the DOE 

16 RadCon Manual or 10 CFR, not 10 CFR 835 at 

17 that point I don't think, but all of the 

18 applicable requirements.

19 So that one assessment stated that 

20 they were in compliance with internal and 

21 external monitoring as well as the records 

22 program. So that was pretty much it, and that 
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1 was actually published in December of '93.

2 CHAIR BEACH: Who did that 

3 assessment, Grady? It's Josie again. Do you 

4 know?

5 MR. CALHOUN: I'll have to look 

6 that one up.

7 CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

8 MR. CALHOUN: I don't know. If 

9 any of the ORAU guys got that on the tip of 

10 your tongue out there, spit it out. I'm 

11 looking. I'll find it before the end of our 

12 conversation here.

13 CHAIR BEACH: Well, and my other 

14 question is have you done any dose 

15 reconstructions for after '93 and are able to 

16 complete those?

17 MR. CALHOUN: Well, as part of the 

18 look that I did at incoming records, I looked 

19 at all, I only looked at employees that had 

20 employment just after 1980. I didn't look at 

21 any prior to that. And I've not found any 

22 discrepancies in the records after 1989.
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1 But the three or so that I have 

2 found have been in the late '80s and 1989, 

3 where Brookhaven reported that the individual 

4 wasn't monitored and I have, you know, whole 

5 body counts of that individual that were done 

6 in that 1989 period.

7 I have not found any similar 

8 discrepancies after 1989. So the 1993, when 

9 that assessment was done, that seemed like a 

10 pretty good date for us.

11 CHAIR BEACH: Okay thanks, Grady. 

12 Any other comments or questions?

13 DR. MAURO: Josie, this is John 

14 Mauro.

15 CHAIR BEACH: Hi, John.

16 DR. MAURO: Is it okay for me to 

17 ask a question?

18 CHAIR BEACH: Sure.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes, this is an 

20 interesting dilemma that I see you find 

21 yourself in, in that you go back to your dose 

22 reconstructions and you find that, in fact, 
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1 there are data when DOE claims there wasn't.

2 So in theory the people who had 

3 their dose reconstruction done, you know, 

4 when apparently DOE did not believe or there 

5 was not records for it was based on some 

6 coworker model.

7 And now you're finding, well, 

8 there really was no need to, I'm sort of 

9 speculating now. I'm presuming that for the 

10 internal exposure, in order to do that 

11 person's dose reconstruction and come to some 

12 decision regarding a recommendation for 

13 compensation or denial, you needed to rely on 

14 some type of coworker approach. Is that true?

15 MR. CALHOUN: No, actually after 

16 1980, we assumed that the records were there 

17 because that's what we were thinking and so 

18 ambient internal was assigned if there was no 

19 internal monitoring records.

20 DR. MAURO: Right, but what I'm 

21 saying is though, nevertheless, so did you 

22 assume that the person did not experience then 
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1 any internal exposure because there was no 

2 records?

3 MR. CALHOUN: Yes, we did and that 

4 is actually, if you look back, we do have a 

5 lot of information about the site and it is a 

6 very, very low-dose site.

7 And the internal exposure 

8 potential, especially from the, you know, 

9 after the reactor was shut down, at least the 

10 pile, is very, very small.

11 But because there was such a 

12 variety of different types of radionuclides 

13 there and you really couldn't put a finger on 

14 who was exposed to what when, I couldn't in 

15 good conscience just assume that anymore, 

16 based on the findings of those, you know, 

17 three cases at a pretty small set that I 

18 searched because we can't say for sure that 

19 we've got the records.

20 Now, if those individuals, we did 

21 a dose reconstruction and we captured data 

22 regardless of what Brookhaven told us, we 
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1 would use that internal data.

2 But, you know, like I said, that 

3 kind of gave me a little bit of a reason to 

4 look deeper. And I can't say that -- I know 

5 for sure we haven't captured every piece of 

6 paper from that site. So I can't say that 

7 we've got the data even when Brookhaven 

8 doesn't.

9 DR. MAURO: All right, thank you.

10 MEMBER ROESSLER: Grady, this is 

11 Gen. So we're talking about doing dose 

12 reconstructions for individuals where data is 

13 missing. Why not develop some sort of a 

14 bounding approach to doing the internal doses?

15 MR. CALHOUN: Are you talking 

16 prior to 1993?

17 MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, yes, 

18 definitely. During this period of time, the 

19 1979 to '93, the period that we're talking 

20 about.

21 MR. CALHOUN: Well, because right 

22 now we know that people were monitored. In 
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1 the past, sometimes we've come up with at 

2 least justifications for coworker models by 

3 saying, well, the people we don't have records 

4 for probably weren't as likely to have been 

5 exposed and, you know, that holds true 

6 basically.

7 But in this case, these people 

8 were monitored and we don't have the dosimetry 

9 records and there's also a fairly wide range 

10 of radionuclides there at that site.

11 You know, you've got the shorter12 lived items that were generated as a result of 

13 the reactors. You've got some medical 

14 isotopes that were generated at the site.

15 So it would be pretty difficult to 

16 come up with a suite of radionuclides and, I 

17 guess, bounding doses that could be, I'll say, 

18 sufficiently accurate to not grant an SEC.

19 MEMBER ROESSLER: I see. Yes, 

20 that's a very good point, that in addition to 

21 apparently not being able to tell our 

22 localized people at any point in time.
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1 MR. CALHOUN: Yes.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Well, but that, of 

3 course, gets us back into what is, from a 

4 technical point of view, the truest of all 

5 dichotomies that we face in this entire 

6 program because of the way the law is written 

7 and the way we have to interpret it.

8 This, again, gets back into the 

9 having to prove a negative thing and, of 

10 course, no one is going to be able to prove 

11 that everybody on the site did not go 

12 everywhere on the site.

13 MEMBER ANDERSON: You have to 

14 speak up. It's hard to hear you.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, I'm sorry. I 

16 thought I was speaking directly into the 

17 microphone.

18 I was just complaining about 

19 having to prove a negative again, that's all, 

20 trying to prove that everybody on site was not 

21 everywhere on site. That's an impossibility 

22 and we all understand that.
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1 It's another one of the 

2 unfortunate things that we have to say that 

3 all of the potential exposures have not been 

4 accounted for when there are such an enormous 

5 variety of truly, in any case, this is unique, 

6 isotopes and even elements that we will see in 

7 other places.

8 But, of course, that was part and 

9 parcel of the remarkable amount of work and 

10 research that has been done at that site and 

11 that's been of such great value to all others 

12 who are involved in the science.

13 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, any other Work 

14 Group Members have any comments or questions?

15 (No response.)

16 CHAIR BEACH: I just have one 

17 quick comment.

18 It's been a year since our Work 

19 Group met. I believe we met last January 2011 

20 and I was pleased with the dates.

21 Grady, I know that this was a date 

22 that we threw around in our Work Group 
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1 meetings on several occasions, so I have to 

2 admit that I was happy that you chose to go up 

3 through '93.

4 At this time, if there's no other 

5 comments or questions, I'd like to give the 

6 public a chance to speak, if you have any 

7 comments or questions of the Work Group or 

8 NIOSH. 

9 MR. CALHOUN: This is Grady. I 

10 just wanted to tell you that I found the 

11 assessment.

12 It said an assessment performed by 

13 the DOE Chicago Operations Office in December 

14 of '93 found the BNL HP program in compliance 

15 with applicable DOE standards, acceptable 

16 professional practices.

17 And it talked about contamination 

18 survey program, personnel radiological records 

19 program as well. So it was ultimately done by 

20 the DOE Chicago's Operation Office.

21 CHAIR BEACH: Okay and, Grady, 

22 this is Josie again. Is that posted on the O: 
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1 drive?

2 MR. CALHOUN: Yes, I'm sure it's 

3 in there but, yes, I just read from the ER and 

4 we can make sure that that's on the O: drive.

5 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, I don't know 

6 if we'll want to look at that. We will have 

7 some more work to do for this Work Group or 

8 BNL later so it may come in handy. Thank you.

9 So at this time, is there anybody 

10 from Brookhaven that would like to speak or 

11 ask questions?

12 MS. DETWEILER: No, thank you.

13 CHAIR BEACH: Thank you. So if 

14 we're ready, I'd like to go ahead and talk to 

15 the Work Group about recommendations. And 

16 should we take a vote, Ted? What do you 

17 think?

18 MR. KATZ: This is Ted. Yes, I 

19 mean, you should certainly register your 

20 opinions as to whether you support this or not 

21 individually and formulate then what it is you 

22 want to say to the full Board.
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1 CHAIR BEACH: So do we need to 

2 formulate it today or just --

3 MR. KATZ: Well, I mean, I think 

4 this is pretty straightforward. I mean, you 

5 either support the NIOSH position or you 

6 don't, but that's the most of it. But, yes, I 

7 think you should have a Work Group vote.

8 CHAIR BEACH: Okay. So would you 

9 like to take that, Ted?

10 MR. KATZ: Sure, I mean, if you'll 

11 all just speak individually, one at a time, 

12 then we'll capture that.

13 CHAIR BEACH: Well, I'll start. 

14 Yes, I support this.

15 MEMBER ROESSLER: Do we need a 

16 motion?

17 CHAIR BEACH: No, I don't believe 

18 so.

19 MR. KATZ: I mean, you know, 

20 formally you have a motion and someone seconds 

21 it, so I don't think it's a bad idea, Josie. 

22 I mean, normally the Chair doesn't put forward 
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1 the motion if we want to be formal about this.

2 MEMBER ANDERSON: No, this is 

3 Andy. I will. I'll make the motion that we 

4 accept NIOSH's recommendations.

5 CHAIR BEACH: Thank you.

6 MEMBER CLAWSON: This is Brad. I 

7 second it.

8 MR. KATZ: Okay. And then the 

9 next step is is there any more discussion on 

10 the motion? Not hearing any, then let's go 

11 ahead with the vote. So Josie Beach.

12 CHAIR BEACH: Josie, I say yes.

13 MR. KATZ: Andy.

14 MEMBER ANDERSON: Yes.

15 MR. KATZ: Brad.

16 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes.

17 MR. KATZ: Gen.

18 MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes.

19 MR. KATZ: And Wanda.

20 MEMBER MUNN: I hate to have to 

21 say it, but given the wording of the law that 

22 we have to operate under, I don't see that we 
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1 have any option and it is an 83.14. If NIOSH 

2 can't do it, then no one can. Yes.

3 MR. KATZ: Yes, okay. And then 

4 that's all in favor. None opposed. It passes 

5 unanimously and that is a recommendation to 

6 support NIOSH's position to add a Class for 

7 this period. Okay, Josie.

8 CHAIR BEACH: Thank you, Ted. So 

9 at this point, I'd like to go back. We do 

10 have an Evaluation Report Matrix that we were 

11 working to. There was two items on it. One 

12 covered internal and the other external.

13 The last meeting there was several 

14 action items on the table that we have never 

15 actually gone back to, so there will be some 

16 more work that needs to be done there.

17 And then NIOSH, or I'm sorry, 

18 SC&A, sent out a updated version of the Site 

19 Profile matrix. So, Joe, I'm going to turn it 

20 over to you and Ron, if you would go through 

21 and just walk us through where we're at.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, thank you. 
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1 I'm going to have Ron go through that list in 

2 some detail because it's been a while.

3 I mean, we've been on the ER 

4 matrix now for a year and a half and really 

5 haven't gone back to look at the Site Profile 

6 issues.

7 But just as a backdrop, as you 

8 were saying on the SEC matrix, clearly there 

9 are some outstanding issues on the external 

10 side, particularly on neutrons, and we'll 

11 outline that.

12 But, you know, from the January 

13 meeting of last year there were certainly a 

14 lot of discussion on several of those issues 

15 and certainly we've been working that this 

16 past year.

17 I think some of that was deferred 

18 because of the 83.14, but certainly we need to 

19 get back to that. Josie, you touched on this 

20 question of the 1993 breakpoint on the 83.14.

21 So in terms of the two items on 

22 the ER matrix, those would be two pertinent 
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1 subjects for follow-up.

2 Now, on the Site Profile side, 

3 this is going back to the original Site 

4 Profile matrix from the Site Profile review we 

5 did back in 2009, just to remind the Work 

6 Group, this was sort of a team effort.

7 Kathy Robertson-DeMers and myself 

8 did the on-site work. We did the interviews 

9 and the data capture.

10 Ron Buchanan was performing the 

11 reviews on the external dosimetry side and in 

12 the end, actually developed the final report, 

13 so certainly we've been involved with this now 

14 for several years.

15 So I'm going to have Ron just walk 

16 through the status of the Site Profile issues 

17 and we'll also touch upon some of these loose 

18 ends from the ER matrix that we've been 

19 discussing this past year.

20 Some of these, for example on the 

21 neutron side, I think, and based on the 

22 discussions within the Work Group, are 
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1 trending towards Site Profile resolution.

2 That's the way we left it and 

3 there were some items, I think, that Grady and 

4 his team were going to come back with.

5 But certainly that was the sense 

6 that we had, that these were not intractable 

7 issues, but ones that certainly could be 

8 addressed and resolved, but we haven't 

9 resolved them yet.

10 But in any case, Josie or Work 

11 Group, any questions sort of on that backdrop 

12 before I turn it over to Ron?

13 (No response.)

14 MR. FITZGERALD: We're going to 

15 just walk through just to familiarize 

16 everybody with the Site Profile and some of 

17 the issues that were sort of, they weren't 

18 addressed in the ER discussion because we 

19 clearly saw these as more in the Site Profile 

20 context.

21 CHAIR BEACH: Joe, this is Josie. 

22 No questions from here.
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. But in 

2 terms of time frame, this Site Profile review 

3 was conducted in 2009.

4 The ER came out in 2010 so we kind 

5 of walked right into the ER discussion of the 

6 two central issues that we touched on, so this 

7 is going back to that 2009 review. Ron?

8 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay, this is Ron 

9 Buchanan with SC&A. I know when I started 

10 looking at this, this had been sitting and 

11 gathering dust here for about a year and I had 

12 to dust it off and see where we was at.

13 So I'd like to go back and look at 

14 where we've been and where we left it last 

15 January when we had our last meeting.

16 And to bring everybody up to date, 

17 I just want to briefly discuss the fact that 

18 the Site Profile for BNL was issued in August 

19 of '06.

20 SC&A performed a review on that in 

21 September of '09. We weren't assigned that 

22 task until later. And so we came out with 13 
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1 primary findings in that review for the Site 

2 Profile.

3 Same month, September of '09, 

4 NIOSH issued their ER of the first SEC 113 

5 that covered the years 1947 through 1979.

6 Now, in April of 2010, NIOSH 

7 issued a Revision 1 to the TBD, which 

8 incorporated this first SEC dates and a few 

9 changes to Section 6.

10 We did not do a Site Profile 

11 review on the revision because we were tied up 

12 in the SEC because we issued that evaluation 

13 for the first SEC in July of 2010.

14 And then we had our first Work 

15 Group meeting in July 28 of 2010 and then we 

16 had some action items from that.

17 Then we had our second Work Group 

18 meeting in the 21st of January of 2011, so 

19 that was a little over a year ago.

20 And then we had a list of action 

21 items, received a response or two from NIOSH, 

22 and then we did not receive any further 
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1 information until the January of 2012 ER, 

2 Evaluation Report of SEC 196.

3 And so, what we wanted to do was 

4 go back and say, okay, SC&A and has had a 

5 brief time to look at the current status of 

6 this, and where do we stand now and where do 

7 we need to go?

8 Okay, where we stand now is that 

9 SC&A sees the recent SEC, through '93, as 

10 covering the biological issues for the SEC and 

11 some of the TBD issues through '93, not after 

12 '93 necessarily but up through '93, and none 

13 of the external issues because the SEC was not 

14 based on external issues.

15 And so all of the external issues, 

16 both SEC and Site Profile, still stands to be 

17 addressed.

18 And where we stand on that is that 

19 from the January 2011 meeting, there was a 

20 list of action items issued.

21 And Grady sent out a memo on the 

22 2nd of February of 2011 with 13 action items 
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1 from the SEC meeting.

2 Now, there happens to be 13 action 

3 items and these aren't necessarily related to 

4 the 13 TBD findings. And about half of those 

5 had to do with external. Half of them had to 

6 do with internal, and so those items.

7 Now, additionally Grady had sent 

8 out a memo on the 22nd of February giving some 

9 reference numbers that he had promised during 

10 the meeting.

11 And then on the 16th of March of 

12 '11, Grady sent out, well it was the 21st 

13 actually, sent out a memo he had received back 

14 from Brookhaven National Lab inquiring about 

15 the problems with the neutron dosimetry 

16 between 1985 and 1995.

17 And I wanted to bring just a quick 

18 summary here. We had two major SEC issues, 

19 was the biological records in the dosimetry 

20 for internal intake and then we had the 

21 external neutron dosimetry.

22 The records for external, like 
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1 Grady said, seems to be there. The photons 

2 and beta was reasonably accurate. They 

3 measured.

4 What we had problems with was the 

5 neutron measurements and there was two major 

6 issues there, was that the facility had a lot 

7 of different accelerators with different 

8 neutron energy fields and those had not been 

9 very well characterized. And secondly the 

10 dosimetry system changed. It wasn't 

11 necessarily capturing all the neutron energies 

12 and they changed from NTA film to a 

13 combination of the NTA and TLDs and CR-39 and 

14 Lexan in the '85 to 95 range.

15 And so we had what was a potential 

16 SEC issue there with several facets to it, 

17 fading, response and how the records were 

18 recorded, problems with development, the 

19 dosimeters and such.

20 And so those were some of the 

21 issues that we had been ironing out from July 

22 to the January meeting, during the January of 
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1 2011 meeting. And then that's where the 13 

2 items to be addressed by Grady from the 

3 January 2011 meeting.

4 Like I said, gave some reference 

5 on the 22nd and then a copy of a memo on March 

6 16. And then we haven't really done anything, 

7 received any, we haven't done anything since 

8 then.

9 And so those are where we stand, 

10 SC&A stands on the SEC issues, is the 

11 remaining commitments made at the January 2011 

12 meeting for SEC.

13 Now, I'd like to go now into the 

14 TBD issues but to ask for any questions or 

15 clarifications that we have with SEC standing.

16 CHAIR BEACH: Ron, this is Josie. 

17 Can you just give us a real brief -- are some 

18 of the items from the Evaluation matrix, are 

19 those going to be overlapping into the Site 

20 Profile?

21 DR. BUCHANAN: Yes, in fact, some 

22 of them do cover the same bases. The Site 
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1 Profile issues are just ones that wouldn't 

2 necessarily, that can be fixed so to speak. 

3 You know, there's probably solutions to them.

4 The SEC issues, especially with 

5 the neutrons, there might be ways to approach 

6 those but we haven't found satisfactory ways 

7 yet, haven't seen them documented.

8 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, and I also 

9 want to ask the Work Group and you, Ron, does 

10 it make sense to take care of the Evaluation 

11 Report matrix and then go into the TBD?

12 DR. BUCHANAN: Well, yes, we can, 

13 however you'd like to do it. You mean today 

14 or in the future?

15 CHAIR BEACH: No, today.

16 DR. BUCHANAN: Today, all right.

17 CHAIR BEACH: If we need to task 

18 anything or update that list of 13 items.

19 DR. BUCHANAN: Yes, that would be 

20 fine. I have them in front of me. I don't 

21 know. Does Grady, does he have those 

22 available? Are you familiar with what I'm 
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1 talking about?

2 MR. CALHOUN: The 13 items?

3 DR. BUCHANAN: Right, on the --

4 MR. CALHOUN: I got them called up 

5 in front of me right now.

6 DR. BUCHANAN: Yes, the 2nd of 

7 February '11 was action items from our January 

8 meeting, yes. So, Josie, do you want to 

9 discuss those at this time?

10 CHAIR BEACH: Yes. Grady, what do 

11 you think? Would you like to go through those 

12 before we get into the TBD items?

13 MR. CALHOUN: Sure, we can talk 

14 about them. But like Ron said, there's not a 

15 whole lot that's been done on them.

16 I did look back and I think that I 

17 actually have a document on fading and angular 

18 dependence that I may not have forwarded.

19 This one was done in February of 

20 2011 and I can't find a record of me having 

21 sent it to you, but that certainly will be 

22 coming if I haven't, so that'll hopefully 
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1 answer that.

2 And I've also got a response back 

3 on one of the other items relative to how we 

4 used correction factors for neutrons and dose 

5 reconstructions.

6 DR. MAURO: And, Josie, this is 

7 John. I see an interesting situation. What 

8 we have here is a recommendation that will be 

9 coming from the Work Group regarding granting 

10 an SEC from 1980 through '93 and the basis 

11 being inability to reconstruct internal doses.

12 But I presume, and based on all of 

13 our experience, usually that sort of 

14 recommendation and any vote that comes out of 

15 the full Board usually also makes a statement 

16 regarding what doses can be reconstructed.

17 And it sounds to me that we are in 

18 a situation where there's agreement that the 

19 internal doses are problematic, but I'm 

20 hearing that there are also some problems 

21 regarding external.

22 And my question, I guess, to the 
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1 Work Group is: to what degree is it necessary 

2 to resolve, let's say, this neutron issue that 

3 we're talking about, external issue, before 

4 you can fully go forward to the full Board 

5 with a recommendation regarding an SEC Class?

6 MEMBER MUNN: This is Wanda. It 

7 would certainly behoove us to make certain 

8 that, if we are basing our position on lack of 

9 internal dosimetry, that we certainly have the 

10 issue of neutron dosimetry resolved, 

11 outstanding and of record.

12 MR. KATZ: John, this is Ted.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes, it's really a 

14 process question, yes.

15 MR. KATZ: Here's what I would 

16 suggest. I do not think, it doesn't sound 

17 like the external can be resolved in a 

18 heartbeat and it shouldn't hold up the process 

19 for the 83.14.

20 I think all it does is put in sort 

21 of reservation what the Board can say about 

22 the feasibility of estimating doses for 
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1 external.

2 And at this point, before the 

3 Board is able to conclude anything, I think it 

4 would just be balance on it.

5 DR. MAURO: Very good. No, I just 

6 wanted to get clarification on that. Thank 

7 you.

8 MR. KATZ: Yes, but so I would not 

9 recommend that the Work Group refrain from 

10 making its recommendation, nor that the Board 

11 refrain from taking action on an 83.14 based 

12 on an outstanding, you know, question with 

13 respect to other doses, feasibility of 

14 reconstructing other doses.

15 DR. MAURO: Okay, thanks for that, 

16 yes.

17 CHAIR BEACH: Thank you, Ted. 

18 This is Josie again. And I do not want to 

19 hold up the 83.14 in any way.

20 I just wanted to make sure, there 

21 is still an SEC issue with the external. We 

22 haven't taken that off the table. And I just 
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1 want to be able to move forward and make sure 

2 that the work that the Work Group has set out 

3 to do gets done.

4 And I just -- mine was mostly a 

5 process of how to handle it with Grady and 

6 SC&A on the list of 13 items because we will 

7 have another list with the TBD shortly.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Josie, this 

9 is Joe. I think your sense of maybe two tiers 

10 here, the first tier being the remaining ER 

11 issues, which the neutron questions were 

12 probably the most prominent.

13 We had those two central 

14 questions, the internal and then the neutron. 

15 And clearly there's actions ongoing, so 

16 completing those actions and just coming to 

17 terms with that would be certainly a priority.

18 Maybe a second priority would be to 

19 again validate for the Work Group the December 

20 '93 date.

21 Certainly there was an audit. We 

22 haven't had a chance to look at the 
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1 documentation. It sounds very plausible, but 

2 that would be another item that we haven't had 

3 before.

4 But those would be probably the 

5 only two primary SEC-related issues and that 

6 would be the first tier.

7 And then we have what would be 

8 maybe eight or nine TBD issues which Ron 

9 outlined, which would be the second tier, 

10 which certainly once these issues are 

11 addressed would be available for the Work 

12 Group to disposition.

13 DR. BUCHANAN: Josie, this is Ron. 

14 I would suggest, rather than take up time 

15 today on these 13 action items from the 

16 January meeting and for everybody's benefit if 

17 Grady could do a formal reply to those 13 

18 items that are listed there on the action 

19 items.

20 And if some of them are covered by 

21 the recent SEC, then he could note that for 

22 that time period.
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1 If there's a time period outside 

2 the SEC that this item needs to be addressed, 

3 such as MDAs or something, then that should be 

4 addressed.

5 If he could provide a one-paper 

6 written formal response to those 13 action 

7 items from the January 2011 meeting to SC&A 

8 and the Work Group, we could evaluate that 

9 then and see where we stand and move forward 

10 on the SEC issues.

11 Rather than have it just 

12 piecemeal, well, you sent some last year, he 

13 has a few here, it could be all in one paper. 

14 We could evaluate these.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: This is Joe 

16 again. Grady, am I right to say, though, that 

17 you kind of moved from trying to disposition 

18 of those issues to preparing the 83.14 and 

19 that, you know, there's still quite a bit of 

20 action on those or --

21 MR. CALHOUN: Yes, we did but I'd 

22 be happy to do that though, still. You know, 
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1 if there's something that we still need to do 

2 a little bit more work on over here, I'll say 

3 that.

4 But I believe that I can go back 

5 and just respond to everything, like Ron said. 

6 It may be a bit redundant but it'll all be in 

7 one package.

8 And I believe that there's 

9 actually some documents that I haven't 

10 forwarded you that are directly in response to 

11 a couple of these 13 issues. So I'd be glad 

12 to do that. I think that's an okay approach.

13 MEMBER MUNN: It certainly would 

14 be helpful for people like me to get all of 

15 the refreshing in one lump. That would be 

16 really helpful if you're willing to do that, 

17 Grady.

18 MR. CALHOUN: Certainly.

19 CHAIR BEACH: Yes, Grady, this is 

20 Josie. I also agree with that. And, Joe, 

21 under your first tier, you talked about 

22 validating the 1993 date. Is that something 
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1 that Grady will do for us?

2 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I think that 

3 would be something SC&A would prefer to do. I 

4 mean, you know, clearly we've been waiting for 

5 NIOSH's response.

6 We now have that in the 83.14 and 

7 we understand what the basis of that date is 

8 now.

9 And I think it would be useful to 

10 go back, look at the documentation, maybe also 

11 look at some of the -- you know, some of the 

12 actual monitoring data, you know, sort of the 

13 manifest results and just validate that we're 

14 all on board, and we certainly would concur 

15 with that particular breakpoint time-wise.

16 Of course, the precedent for this 

17 is something that we've addressed elsewhere at 

18 other SEC sites where, you know, a certain 

19 specific turning point was chosen and I think 

20 it's useful to validate that and, you know, 

21 have a final discussion on it.

22 MEMBER ROESSLER: This is Gen. I 
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1 need some clarification on that. We have 

2 taken a Work Group vote here on, I assume, a 

3 motion that we're going to present to the 

4 Board with regard to this SEC period.

5 And now you have brought up 

6 validating this '93 date. Are you talking 

7 about the end point date in this SEC period 

8 that we're still looking for validation from 

9 SC&A on?

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think 

11 this is a question of whether December '93 is, 

12 in fact, the latest date or whether, in fact, 

13 there's any basis for having it later.

14 You know, I don't think we've had 

15 any opportunity to review the audit that was 

16 mentioned and looking at any other available 

17 documentation that would support what the 

18 turning point might have been.

19 I think we're in agreement that 

20 certainly it went through '93. That's almost 

21 to the DOELAP era, so I don't think we're 

22 talking about anything more than a year or 
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1 two.

2 But just simply to, for the Work 

3 Group, say, to look at the documentation upon 

4 which that date was based and to convey back 

5 to the Work Group that, you know, we would see 

6 no reason that date wouldn't stand as the 

7 latest date for the 83.14.

8 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay, thank you.

9 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, any other 

10 questions or comments?

11 MR. KATZ: This is Ted. Joe, just 

12 a suggestion then. Again, I don't know what 

13 time would be required to do this, but if it's 

14 possible to button that up before the Board 

15 meeting, that would be great.

16 I can understand why it might not, 

17 in which case that's okay too. But in case 

18 this is a question then that also arises at 

19 the Board level, it'd be nice if you'd already 

20 completed that homework and could speak to it.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, my only 

22 misgiving, and I agree with you, that would be 
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1 useful, is, you know, a field office audit 

2 report on the conformance of a program in 

3 terms of record keeping with, you know, the 

4 standing orders or regulations, you know, 

5 that's someone's judgment.

6 And it's something that, you know, 

7 in terms of actually looking at the results, I 

8 mean, we're spending a lot of time at some 

9 other sites doing the same thing, going beyond 

10 the programmatic findings and trying to 

11 establish, based on the actual dosimetry 

12 records, that, in fact, something has changed 

13 for the better.

14 I think for Brookhaven it's going 

15 to be a little easier because what we're 

16 talking about is the completeness of a 

17 centralized record database.

18 And, you know, hopefully we can, 

19 you know, validate that rather quickly. 

20 Within five or six days, I don't know about 

21 that. But I think we could certainly do it 

22 rather quickly.
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1 I don't think, Ted, we're saying 

2 that it would be earlier, but certainly 

3 whether or not the corner was turned at that 

4 point in time we'd want to validate.

5 MR. KATZ: Right, right. I 

6 understand, Joe, and I understand your caveat 

7 as well. Thanks.

8 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, thanks, Joe. 

9 Any other Work Group Members, questions, 

10 comments? Hearing none, I'll turn it back 

11 over to you, Ron, if you're ready to go into 

12 the TBD issues.

13 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay, thank you, 

14 Josie. This is Ron Buchanan, SC&A. I did 

15 have one comment, though, before we get off 

16 the action items.

17 Grady, when you do a formal reply 

18 to the 13 action items, if you could indicate, 

19 okay, first of all, is there any plans, you 

20 know, anything that you would present there 

21 that is going to be in a revised TBD?

22 Or is the last one the one dose 
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1 reconstructions are going to use for the 

2 foreseeable future?

3 MR. CALHOUN: Yes, I'll add that 

4 in there. Certainly we're going to have to 

5 make some changes to the TBD to, if nothing 

6 else, address the SEC period.

7 So we haven't started revising the 

8 TBD and we usually don't until we get our path 

9 forward on the SEC and get that approved but, 

10 you know, I could always -- I think this is 

11 going to be changed in the TBD.

12 And also there were some things 

13 that were changed in the revision since you 

14 guys last looked at it, but I can't tell you 

15 if they were any of these off the top of my 

16 head.

17 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay. And another 

18 request, it'll save a lot of back and forth 

19 papers if, when you do write this up, if 

20 you're going to incorporate something into the 

21 TBD revision then give how the dose 

22 reconstructor will use it.
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1 For example, in, say, NTA fading, 

2 please don't just quote a reference. And 

3 please say, you know, what number that the 

4 dose reconstructor will actually see in the 

5 revised TBD, so we know what number he'll be 

6 using. That would shorten this exchange of 

7 information time.

8 MR. CALHOUN: All right.

9 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay? Okay, thank 

10 you. So that's where we stand on the SEC. 

11 Then SC&A will look at the 1993 date and try 

12 to verify whether that's correct or if 

13 there'll be anything later and as soon as 

14 possible to do that.

15 And then Grady will give us a 

16 formal report on the 13 action items from the 

17 SEC meeting in January 2011.

18 And then we'll move on to the Site 

19 Profile issues. Now the Site Profile issues 

20 were of course drawn up a number of years ago, 

21 in fact, about three years ago.

22 And so some of these have been, 
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1 well, hinge on the SEC. Some of them hinge on 

2 developments that have occurred.

3 Like I say, the revision to the 

4 TBD came out in April of 2010 but SC&A wasn't 

5 tasked to review it and we didn't really do 

6 too much with it because we were involved in 

7 the SEC issues.

8 And so the 13 Site Profile issues, 

9 what I'll do is cover those and what I think 

10 needs to be done and NIOSH can have their 

11 input here as we go through them to resolve 

12 the Site Profile issues.

13 Finding number 1 was bioassay 

14 monitoring not adequately established. And so 

15 this was the fact that we did not find that 

16 everyone that needed to be monitored 

17 apparently was monitored.

18 Now, of course, the SEC has taken 

19 that up through 1993. And so since the 

20 release of the ER report, we have not had a 

21 chance to completely evaluate that.

22 And so what we need to do is to, 
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1 just like Joe was saying, is establish the 

2 fact that after 1993, whether or not it looked 

3 like the program was up to date and necessary 

4 to catch anyone that had internal intake.

5 And this is the same way with 

6 Finding number 2, which is records of bioassay 

7 monitoring not centralized or completely 

8 known.

9 And so, again, the SEC goes up 

10 through 1993 and we need to look to see if 

11 this is true for after 1993, whether the 

12 records were centralized or not.

13 So those are both action items for 

14 SC&A to look at, if the Work Group so tasks us 

15 with these.

16 Now, minimum detectable activity 

17 uncertainty. Now, this is an area I would 

18 like for NIOSH to address. This is the fact 

19 that the TBD gives some MDAs and uncertainties 

20 for certain periods in the TBD and the revised 

21 TBD.

22 But there is a blank in there. 
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1 There's a gap between 1994 and 1998, the 

2 period after the SEC. There's information for 

3 MDAs before 1994 and 1999 and after, but 

4 there's a gap right there in the mid 1990s.

5 And so this is an area that we'd 

6 like to know, you know, what can be done for 

7 the dose reconstructor if a person needs a 

8 dose reconstructed during this period and they 

9 need a minimum detectable activity for a 

10 certain isotope?

11 What can be used for that period 

12 in 1994 and 1998 that doesn't appear in the 

13 TBD? Grady, you want to speak to that? Do 

14 you have any new information on that or what 

15 do we want to do about that?

16 MR. CALHOUN: What I can tell you 

17 is that generally speaking we haven't touched 

18 any of the items that were TBD.

19 Like Joe said earlier, we were 

20 kind of stuck in the SEC world and trying to 

21 deal with those 13 issues and then the 83.14 

22 came along.
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1 So chances are we're going to have 

2 to look at any of these that are open still, 

3 especially after 1993. So I cannot comment on 

4 this and I would bet that my compadres at ORAU 

5 report the same there.

6 So that's kind of where we're 

7 going to end up standing on any of these 

8 issues that are TBD-related.

9 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay, so I'll leave 

10 that as an open issue for NIOSH to address.

11 MR. CALHOUN: Right.

12 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay, and the same 

13 way on Finding 4, which is radionuclide 

14 characterization not sufficiently known. This 

15 is solubility, particle size, activity 

16 fraction and such.

17 Table 5-5 lists some of these from 

18 the stack, however, that's not necessarily 

19 representative of what the worker was 

20 breathing.

21 And some of the interviewees say 

22 that Table 2-2 and 2-3 does not reflect the 
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1 isotopes used at some of the facilities.

2 And so what we would like to see, 

3 again after 1993, is an action item there for 

4 NIOSH to try to complete that information in 

5 some form after 1993 for internal intakes, 

6 characterization of radionuclides on Finding 

7 4.

8 MR. CALHOUN: Yes, that's 

9 basically the same response as the previous. 

10 I think we're going to have to just respond to 

11 all of these that are still a concern after 

12 1993.

13 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay. I'll go 

14 through and say which ones I think SC&A has in 

15 their court and which ones I believe that's in 

16 NIOSH's court and just move through these 

17 then.

18 Finding 5 was no internal coworker 

19 dose data available. Now, of course, that was 

20 a point.

21 It was that mainly SC&A found that 

22 there was lack of data to even create a co-
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1 worker model for the earlier periods because 

2 you didn't know if the most exposed was 

3 monitored or whether the records would be 

4 available to create a coworker model.

5 And so what we, this is kind of a 

6 two-prong approach here on number 5, is what 

7 we need to do is to, SC&A needs to look at the 

8 data after 1993 and see if there is sufficient 

9 data to create a coworker model.

10 And then I'd like to ask a 

11 question of Grady: do you have any plans? Do 

12 you have a need? What's your plans on 

13 internal coworker model?

14 MR. CALHOUN: Right now, we do not 

15 plan on making a coworker model for post-1993. 

16 Same goes with external.

17 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay, I'm making a 

18 note here.

19 MR. KATZ: Can I interject then, 

20 Ron, a question related to the Work Group? 

21 I'm not sure whether it makes sense to task 

22 SC&A with this before you know what NIOSH's 
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1 plan is as to whether they determine that they 

2 need a coworker model. So this is a question 

3 for the Work Group.

4 DR. BUCHANAN: Yes.

5 CHAIR BEACH: Yes, this is Josie. 

6 I agree that that maybe should be left open 

7 and then maybe we can get something formal 

8 from NIOSH, unless you know right now, Grady, 

9 that you are not going to do a coworker model 

10 at all.

11 MR. CALHOUN: Since it's in the 

12 matrix here, I'd rather just respond to them 

13 all like that but I'm pretty sure that's --

14 CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

15 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay, so SC&A will 

16 not spend any resources looking at that and 

17 let NIOSH reply in their response that they do 

18 not plan to have one. And then the Work Group 

19 can decide if that's acceptable or not.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, this is Wanda. 

21 I think --

22 DR. MAURO: This is John. We're 
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1 in a bit of a dilemma. I know, Josie, that 

2 you'd very much like to hear from SC&A 

3 regarding this date of 1993 as best we can, 

4 that that's a good place to stop.

5 Clearly, though, it's going to be 

6 difficult for us to make a statement on our 

7 sensibility regarding that date, if there are 

8 still very much open issues regarding the need 

9 for a coworker model or not post-1993.

10 You see where I'm headed with 

11 this. Without really addressing that to some 

12 degree, it puts us in a difficult position to 

13 make a statement in support of, or not, of the 

14 1993 date.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, with all 

16 due respect, you know, we're going through 

17 this same protocol issue, process issue with 

18 Los Alamos and in some of the other sites 

19 where you have a breakpoint date-wise.

20 A judgment's been made that there 

21 was a turning point. And I don't think the 

22 initial SEC has foreclosed trying to address 
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1 these issues, you know, for a later time 

2 period.

3 And certainly Ted or somebody can 

4 jump in, but process-wise I think one can 

5 address the initial SEC period and still have 

6 open issues in this later period.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Well, that's 

8 probably true but, this is Wanda, it seems to 

9 me Ted's point was we have all of these items 

10 which, if I read the current status literally, 

11 all require NIOSH response before it's 

12 reasonable to be describing a task for SC&A.

13 It just seems to me we have to let 

14 that next step take place. NIOSH has to 

15 respond to what we have here before we go on.

16 CHAIR BEACH: Wanda, this is 

17 Josie. I disagree somewhat because I believe 

18 SC&A, based on the 83.14, the new SEC, they 

19 need to go back and determine if these 

20 findings are, indeed, still findings. I mean, 

21 it's SC&A's report to begin with.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: And the context 
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1 is post-'93 for a lot of them. I mean, I 

2 think the issue is we're not going to spend a 

3 lot of research time establishing issues 

4 before '93, obviously.

5 But as far as the relevance beyond 

6 '93, and whether these are still legitimate 

7 questions, I think that's what we're talking 

8 about.

9 And, you know, some of these have 

10 an SEC context because they were actions from 

11 the January meeting.

12 And some of them are clearly TBD 

13 questions, which obviously none of us have 

14 addressed at the Work Group level. So these 

15 are essentially loose ends that we're now 

16 getting to.

17 But separating the two, you know, 

18 we did have remaining SEC questions that the 

19 Work Group and NIOSH and SC&A were working on 

20 that are quite separate from this 83.14 per 

21 se, so they still are on the table.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, but when you 
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1 say "they," was there more than one, two --

2 just looking at the comments that you provided 

3 on the update of the issues this month there 

4 are only, what, three that I see that you've 

5 indicated were pertinent -- no, four, yes.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, yes, Wanda 

7 --

8 MEMBER MUNN: All of the others 

9 essentially are --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, there were 

11 two central SEC questions that we brought 

12 before the Work Group and the Work Group 

13 supported, one of which was the availability 

14 and adequacy and completeness of internal 

15 dosimetry records.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: That was one big 

18 issue. And the other issue was some 

19 discrepancy and questions surrounding neutron 

20 dosimetry.

21 MEMBER MUNN: But as I say, 

22 neutrons --
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: Those are the two 

2 ER questions that we have brought before the 

3 Work Group.

4 And I think NIOSH has gone a long 

5 ways to satisfying, if not most of the way, 

6 satisfying our concerns with the completeness 

7 of bioassay records up to the early '90s. 

8 Clearly there's been a closure achieved, an 

9 agreement.

10 And what's left is what would 

11 normally just be simply a validation since we 

12 haven't had that final piece of information. 

13 But we don't have any disagreement with the 

14 substance of what NIOSH has brought forward.

15 However, we do still have the 

16 neutron questions, which were sort of batted 

17 around in the January meeting of last year, 

18 from which there were some actions and follow19 up.

20 And what we're talking about is 

21 completing that follow-up so that there's no 

22 remaining questions on that.
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1 As I said when I started the 

2 conversation, I felt those were trending 

3 toward a Site Profile context because these 

4 are very familiar issues. NTA fading, angular 

5 dependence, we've addressed this almost at 

6 every single SEC site.

7 So there certainly is a pretty 

8 good record of how one can go about addressing 

9 those kinds of issues so they're not dose 

10 reconstruction questions, feasibility 

11 questions.

12 So that's kind of where things 

13 were left and I think all we're talking about 

14 is, you know, can we tie those up and complete 

15 what we started last January?

16 And then secondary to that, 

17 certainly the Work Group was given some Site 

18 Profile questions back when the original Site 

19 Profile was done, but we never got to those 

20 because of the SEC evaluation process.

21 So, you know, if you can look at 

22 it that way, those Site Profile questions, 
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1 whether it's, you know, a coworker model or 

2 what have you, weren't judged by SC&A to have 

3 a strong SEC context.

4 They were judged to be Site 

5 Profile in nature and ones that we felt NIOSH 

6 could address outside of the SEC process.

7 So I think we made that 

8 distinction from the get go, so that's still 

9 the distinction I think we would bring to the 

10 table.

11 MEMBER MUNN: I understand that, 

12 Joe. Certainly I understand the issue of 

13 overarching issues like AP geometry.

14 But I was trying to simplify 

15 things by making a direct point that the 

16 responses that we have from you on the 

17 document that was prepared this month very 

18 clearly defined, if I am reading your 

19 statement correctly, they defined that four of 

20 these you consider still pertinent as of 1993 

21 and --

22 CHAIR BEACH: Actually I think, 
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1 Wanda, I think there's actually six.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Well, I did not, my 

3 count could certainly be off. I'm just 

4 looking at the ones that specifically say 

5 after 1993.

6 I'm just, the point I'm trying to 

7 make here is a very simple one. Don't we 

8 already have the information about which ones 

9 need to be pursued by SC&A in their response?

10 And if the answer is no and the 

11 response is not adequate to identify exactly 

12 what we want to do, then by all means I'm 

13 sorry I interrupted. Go back to, I suppose we 

14 were talking about Finding 5 at the time I --

15 CHAIR BEACH: And, Wanda, I think 

16 you make some good points. I think what we 

17 need to do here is we'd never tasked SC&A to 

18 actually go through and review the current TBD 

19 and these findings, so --

20 MEMBER MUNN: I understand that.

21 CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

22 MEMBER MUNN: But it seems to me 
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1 that their responses are, we're going over 

2 their responses one by one and it seemed to me 

3 that they were self-explanatory, but 

4 apparently not. I withdraw my question, 

5 sorry. Go ahead.

6 MR. KATZ: So, Josie, this is Ted.

7 CHAIR BEACH: Yes.

8 MR. KATZ: For clarity, to 

9 reiterate, for Finding 5, all I was saying is 

10 that since DCAS hasn't addressed yet whether 

11 they would need a coworker model, it seems 

12 like the Work Group will want to see what 

13 response DCAS has to that issue as to whether 

14 one's needed before it tasks SC&A to evaluate 

15 the adequacy of data for creating a coworker 

16 model, because if the question's a little bit 

17 different, if DCAS finds that there's no need 

18 for a coworker model.

19 CHAIR BEACH: Right. Ted, I do 

20 agree with you and I did put that one under 

21 NIOSH's actions.

22 MR. KATZ: Okay, thanks.
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1 CHAIR BEACH: So, thank you. Ron, 

2 are you ready to move on to 6?

3 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay. Yes, so just 

4 to summarize on Finding 5, we will not do any 

5 action on that and we will let NIOSH justify 

6 the need or plans for coworker model or not.

7 So Finding 6, now this is a NIOSH 

8 action item. Now, I wrote this matrix update 

9 in January and since I've went back and read 

10 through some of the revision and so most all 

11 of these are still in NIOSH's action items.

12 And so number 6 was, as far as a 

13 Site Profile issue, is that the NTA film 

14 response has not been covered in the TBD and 

15 so that is actually a NIOSH action item.

16 Even though in my update I said we 

17 need to determine a quick look at it, I can 

18 tell that it's not been addressed. So I 

19 recommend that Finding 6 still be a NIOSH 

20 action item.

21 MR. CALHOUN: That's okay with me.

22 DR. BUCHANAN: And the same way 
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1 with 7 and 8. These neutron responses, we 

2 need to have an official response to them and 

3 what is going to be in the Revision 2 of the 

4 TBD to address these.

5 And number 9 is also that way. 

6 These are all neutron issues and 

7 characterizing the neutron field and the 

8 dosimetry response to those fields and the 

9 problems, especially with neutron dosimetry 

10 reading in '85 to 1995.

11 That brings us to Finding 10 on 

12 external dose model. And, now, NIOSH said 

13 that they will respond and justify not needing 

14 a external coworker model for external dose. 

15 Is that correct, Grady?

16 MR. CALHOUN: Yes.

17 DR. BUCHANAN: Okay. Now, number 

18 11 is incidents and accidents, unanticipated 

19 events. This issue is still prevalent and I 

20 would say that we'd like to see a formal 

21 response to the Finding 11.

22 Yes, and this is kind of a related 
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1 one is Finding 12, which is a potential 

2 environmental exposure from the igloo area.

3 Just a little background on that, 

4 the way I understand this, this was a shielded 

5 area in a storage facility that they kept 

6 their high sources at. They had a fence 

7 around it.

8 And the problem SC&A has is if you 

9 had people unmonitored that passed this area 

10 on a regular basis, they could pick up a 

11 higher dose because the dose was greater at 

12 the fence line than it was at the perimeter.

13 And so if you use TLDs or badges 

14 or instruments located at the perimeter of the 

15 site for environmental dose, that wouldn't be 

16 reflective of this igloo storage area and that 

17 would be an action item for NIOSH on Finding 

18 12.

19 And Finding 13 is a SC&A action 

20 item, because the Section 3 on X-ray medical 

21 exposures in the revised TBD was fairly 

22 extensive.
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1 And we did not put a high priority 

2 on going back and looking over that and 

3 comparing it to our earlier findings and 

4 objections from the first TBD.

5 And so that's something that we 

6 need to look at and make a judgment call on 

7 whether that set aside the prior finding. And 

8 that's the 13 Site Profile findings.

9 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so just to 

10 recap, Ron. This is Josie. I have for SC&A 

11 1, 2 and 13. And for NIOSH, I won't go 

12 through the list, but all others.

13 DR. BUCHANAN: That's correct.

14 CHAIR BEACH: Okay. Ted, could 

15 you help -- well, any comments or, Grady, 

16 anything there?

17 MR. CALHOUN: Well, basically I 

18 think that we're going to start out with the 

19 13 -- it's odd that we have 13 on both sides, 

20 isn't it?

21 I'm going to start out with the 13 

22 SEC issues that we've at least got partial 
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1 responses to and I'll give a response as far 

2 as where we stand and I may be able to provide 

3 a couple more documents to you.

4 The other 13 we'll have to get 

5 into our project plan and schedule out dates 

6 as to when those are going to be addressed.

7 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so we'll hear 

8 from you on the time frame because you knew I 

9 was going to ask you that.

10 MR. CALHOUN: Sure.

11 CHAIR BEACH: Thank you. Ted, 

12 help me out here. Do we need to do any formal 

13 tasking for SC&A to review the current TBD and 

14 these three items?

15 MR. KATZ: No, I think we've done 

16 it, actually, in the course of this meeting.

17 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, thank you.

18 DR. MAURO: Josie, this is John. 

19 I have one question and it might be because 

20 I'm not exactly following.

21 But I heard a statement made that 

22 post-1993 NIOSH feels that it does not need an 
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1 external coworker model.

2 In other words, the argument being 

3 that after '93 there's sufficient data to 

4 reconstruct everyone's external doses because 

5 they have a complete record.

6 Now, I also heard during this 

7 conversation that you would like SC&A to make 

8 a statement regarding the degree to which we 

9 agree that the 1993 is a pretty good date and 

10 that, you know, that there are not, you know, 

11 what the, and/or what the SEC issues might be 

12 that still remain for the post-1993 date.

13 Now, the thing that struck me is 

14 that I'm not sure this is an action item or 

15 not.

16 Is it an action item for SC&A to 

17 confirm that there's no need for an external 

18 dosimetry model post-1993 because there is a 

19 complete external dosimetry record?

20 Is that an action item and, Joe, 

21 has that already been resolved to the 

22 satisfaction of SC&A?
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1 MR. FITZGERALD: We have not, 

2 frankly, raised the external dosimetry issue 

3 per se. We did, in the TBD, question why 

4 there was no coworker model and I think we're 

5 going to await NIOSH's response. We've heard 

6 some of it already.

7 And, you know, I don't think, 

8 again, we judged that to be a SEC question for 

9 the Work Group.

10 So, again, we'll look at what the 

11 response is, look at the completeness, but we 

12 judged the completeness to be adequate at the 

13 time.

14 But there was a question of how 

15 one could manage without a coworker model. We 

16 want to validate that for the period '93 

17 forward. But, again, certainly NIOSH can 

18 provide its assessment and we can look at 

19 that.

20 DR. MAURO: Okay, because I just 

21 heard NIOSH's position was they do not need 

22 one. And I guess there's enough information 
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1 on the record right now that we can look at 

2 that?

3 See, what I'm listening to is 

4 where the action items lie for SC&A and this 

5 pivotal date of 1993.

6 You know, what is it that SC&A 

7 needs to do between now and the meeting in 

8 order to be able to say, take a position on 

9 where we believe all issues have been resolved 

10 with regard to the SEC date and where the 

11 issues have not been resolved with regard to 

12 the SEC date of 1993?

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, first, I 

14 don't think there's an external issue that we 

15 have to grapple with.

16 We're quite ready to wait for 

17 Grady to come back with his answer and we've 

18 heard his answer informally on the adequacy, 

19 but we judge the adequacy to be there.

20 We just raised a question in the 

21 Site Profile review as to whether or not they 

22 felt the adequacy was complete enough that a 
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1 coworker model would not be necessary. I 

2 don't think that's a key issue for the meeting 

3 that's coming up.

4 Now, respecting the '93 date on 

5 the internal side, as I said earlier, there's 

6 a lot of precedents, and I think of Los Alamos 

7 because we're spending a lot of time just 

8 trying to balance 1975 as the natural 

9 breakpoint for that SEC.

10 There's a lot of precedent for 

11 looking at whether or not the date is, in 

12 fact, the appropriate breakpoint without 

13 holding up an earlier SEC.

14 So I don't see that as a deal 

15 breaker as far as going forward from a 

16 technical standpoint. I think it'd be useful 

17 to go beyond the one audit milestone that 

18 Grady mentioned.

19 And I think what he was saying was 

20 that from an empirical standpoint, from his 

21 dose reconstructions, he did not see anything 

22 that was an aberration beyond 1989.
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1 So he was looking for a breakpoint 

2 beyond '89 that would be a natural place to 

3 highlight a programmatic turnaround in terms 

4 of record keeping, and this audit was the most 

5 obvious one since they did an evaluation of 

6 the program.

7 We, I think, for the Work Group 

8 just need to look at that and make sure that 

9 that's not the latest one.

10 In other words, that, in fact, the 

11 program did, in fact, turn around in '93 and 

12 that there wasn't something that would keep it 

13 prolonged beyond '93.

14 But that's something we can do 

15 separate from this decision point the Board's 

16 up to in 83.14, so I don't see this as posing 

17 a problem for the 83.14 determination.

18 DR. MAURO: Okay.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Was that clear?

20 DR. MAURO: I think so. This lack 

21 of a coworker model post-1993 for some reason, 

22 and the fact that NIOSH believes there's no 
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1 need for one, is sort of sticking with me and 

2 I'm having a hard time shaking it.

3 I guess it comes down to, Grady, 

4 are you going to be putting something out 

5 explaining why you feel there's no need for an 

6 external coworker model post-1993?

7 MR. CALHOUN: Yes, I'll have to do 

8 that, and internal.

9 DR. MAURO: Okay, and there really 

10 is no action for SC&A until we see that.

11 MR. CALHOUN: That's right. 

12 DR. MAURO: Okay, I just wanted to 

13 make sure I was clear on that. Okay.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think 

15 we're pretty clear.

16 DR. MAURO: Thank you.

17 CHAIR BEACH: Okay. That is the 

18 end of our agenda. Path forward, I think 

19 we've covered that unless somebody has any 

20 comments or questions.

21 I would say we need a time line, 

22 but Grady already said he would get that to 
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1 us.

2 Does anybody need me to go over 

3 the action items or are we all clear, Grady 

4 and Ron?

5 MEMBER ANDERSON: I think we got 

6 it.

7 CHAIR BEACH: Okay.

8 MEMBER ANDERSON: Just send it 

9 out.

10 CHAIR BEACH: Okay. Ted.

11 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry, I was on 

12 mute. This is Ted. So, I'm good. I mean, 

13 it's good to get a little email from the 

14 parties just to reaffirm what their action 

15 items are. But otherwise, I think this is 

16 good.

17 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, so we'll look 

18 for emails from both the SC&A side and NIOSH's 

19 side. And we'll look forward to a future 

20 meeting.

21 That's all I have. I'm ready to 

22 adjourn the meeting if everybody else is in 
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1 agreement.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Do we have any clue 

3 how long it's going to be before we need to 

4 address what NIOSH and SC&A are going to get 

5 to us, what their time line is?

6 CHAIR BEACH: I think that's a 

7 question for Grady and he --

8 MR. CALHOUN: Well, what I'm going 

9 to do is, knowing that there's not going to be 

10 a whole lot that gets accomplished between now 

11 and the Board meeting, is I'm going to try to 

12 get out responses to, or at least where we 

13 stand on the 13 SEC items.

14 Like I said, a lot of that's going 

15 to be a rehash of where we were last time this 

16 went out.

17 But I believe I actually have a 

18 couple other documents I can send out 

19 regarding neutrons. Actually, some of those 

20 might bleed over into the TBD issues as well.

21 I'm not going to -- let's see, 

22 today's Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. I'm 
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1 probably not going to be able to get that out 

2 until Friday. So you're not going to have a 

3 whole lot of time to look at that prior to the 

4 Board meeting.

5 But I kind of agree with what Joe 

6 was saying there, that things like this 

7 usually don't preclude approval of the SEC. 

8 There's just a time period to review when the 

9 end date is, so that's what I plan on doing.

10 And then the next part of my task, 

11 as I see it, is to get the other items for the 

12 13 TBD issues into our project plan, given all 

13 the other things that our group works on, and 

14 get those resource loaded and put into a 

15 schedule.

16 MEMBER MUNN: No, I wasn't asking 

17 whether, how much you were going to get done 

18 before next week, Grady.

19 What I was really asking was, 

20 given the scope of work, which is better 

21 defined now than it was when we came in to 

22 this meeting, whether both SC&A and NIOSH 
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1 could give us a feel as to how long it was 

2 going to take to accomplish those tasks they 

3 now know are ahead of them so that we could be 

4 looking how far out in our calendar we need to 

5 be looking for the next Work Group meeting.

6 That was the intent of my 

7 question. Are we looking at being able to 

8 meet in late April or early May or are we 

9 talking perhaps further out than that?

10 MR. CALHOUN: My gut reaction is 

11 further out than that, just because the same 

12 people that are working on Brookhaven are 

13 working on other TBDs and whatnot, you know, 

14 Savannah River, Mound, things like that.

15 So I'd have to actually look at 

16 the resources and schedule this before I can 

17 give you a date on the TBD issues.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. I was just 

19 wondering whether May or June.

20 MR. CALHOUN: The action is 

21 further out than that, so.

22 MEMBER MUNN: So we're looking at 
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1 another six months, you think. Okay, thanks.

2 CHAIR BEACH: Okay, thank you for 

3 clarifying that, Wanda. Anything else? All 

4 right. Thank you, everyone, for your work 

5 this morning and I will close the meeting.

6 (Whereupon, the meeting in the 

7 above-entitled matter was concluded at 12:30 

8 p.m.)

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