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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH

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TBD-6000 WORK GROUP

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY

NOVEMBER 28, 2012

+ + + + +

The Work Group convened in the 

Zurich Room of the Cincinnati Airport 

Marriott, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron, 

Kentucky, at 9:00 a.m., Paul Ziemer, Chairman, 

presiding

PRESENT:

PAUL L. ZIEMER, Chairman

JOSIE BEACH, Member

WANDA I. MUNN, Member

JOHN W. POSTON, SR., Member*
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

DAVE ALLEN, DCAS

BOB ANIGSTEIN, SC&A

ZAIDA BURGOS, NIOSH*

PATRICIA JESKE*

JOSH KINMAN, DCAS*

JENNY LIN, HHS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A*

JAMES NETON, DCAS

JOHN RAMSPOTT*

WILLIAM THURBER, SC&A*

*Present via telephone
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T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

PAGE

Welcome and Roll Call

by Mr. Ted Katz ...................... 4

DCAS Surrogate Follow-Up

by Mr. Dave Allen

and Dr. Bob Anigstein ................ 6

GSI Petitioner Comments and

Responses

by Ms. Patricia Jeske

and Mr. John Ramspott ............... 66

Letter from Dan McKeel

by Mr. Ted Katz ..................... 93

Work Group Discussion and

Recommendations on the Use

of Surrogate Data

by Chairman Paul Ziemer ............ 102

Status of Remaining TBD Issues

by Chairman Paul Ziemer ............ 160

Overview of Plans for the

full Board Presentations on

December 11, 2012

by Chairman Paul Ziemer ............ 166

Follow-Up Comments by Petitioners

by Mr. John Ramspott ............... 191

Adjourn

by Chairman Paul Ziemer ............ 193
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

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(9:00 a.m.)

 MR. KATZ: Okay, good morning 

everyone in the room and on the line. This is 

the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker 

Heath, TBD-6000 Work Group, and we're going to 

get started here. And I'll begin with roll 

call. We're talking about a site so please 

speak to conflict of interest everybody, as we 

do roll call. And let's begin with the Board.

 (Roll call.)

 MR. KATZ: Let me just remind 

folks on the line to mute your phone except 

when you're speaking, and use *6 if you don't 

have a mute button, *6 again to come off of 

mute. Thanks.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, good 

morning everyone. The agenda for the meeting 

was distributed to the Work Group Members, I 

believe to the petitioners as well, and also 

is on the website if you don't have a copy.

 Just a very quick review, we're 
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1 going to focus initially here on the issue of 

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the use of surrogate data for the active and 

residual periods. And we have in that regard, 

we have a report from NIOSH, we have a review 

of that report by SC&A. And we also have, I 

actually have three sets of comments from the 

petitioner relating to that issue as well.

 And then, so we'll hear initially 

from NIOSH and SC&A and then have an 

opportunity for the petitioner to make 

comments. And then after we complete that 

part, we want to take a look at where we stand 

on open issues on TBD-6000, Appendix BB, on 

the issues resolution. You may recall that a 

number of the SEC issues we had previously 

transferred to be resolved under TBD-6000 

Appendix BB, so those become part of that 

issues matrix and Bob has prepared a, sort of 

a merger of those two documents. We actually 

have the up to date version of both of those, 

but the transfer puts them all under TBD-6000, 

Appendix BB.
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1 But let's begin now with the 

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document that is submitted to us by Dave 

Allen. It's called Evaluation of Additional 

Air Sample Data Applicable to GSI. And I know 

you've all had a chance to read it. What 

we'll do is just ask Dave Allen if he has any 

additional comments or if anything that you 

want to highlight on the paper itself, and 

then we'll ask if the Board Members have any 

questions, and then we'll go on to the SC&A 

review.

 MR. ALLEN: Well, I think you 

don't want me just to summarize the whole 

thing, so --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I don't know 

that you have to go through it in detail, just 

anything that you think you want to highlight. 

I know you did a pretty extensive search of 

databases.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, I would like to 

point out, you know, just to make sure it's on 

the record there, it was not a systemic 
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1 search. I didn't go through every document in 

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our Site Research Database. That would have 

taken a few lifetimes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 MR. ALLEN: I tried to concentrate 

on some sites that had limited work like did 

some testing and stuff thinking there would be 

less interference. Found limited samples 

there so then I went to some of the sites that 

handled a lot of uranium metals such as 

Mallinckrodt, Weldon Spring, and Fernald, and 

just started looking for big caches of air 

samples and pored through them.

 And that's essentially how I did 

this search, so it wasn't systemic or it could 

be, it wasn't systematic. There could be 

other stuff out there but I don't know of a 

better way to go find that other than to 

stumble across it.

 The one thing in the analysis I 

would like to point out, and I notice it's in 

there and I'm sure you've seen it, but when I 
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1 first started putting this together, I was 

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really thinking that the airborne 

concentrations as far as different forms of 

uranium would be more related to the surface 

area of the shapes than the mass.

 So I started doing that analysis 

and I don't think anybody was more surprised 

than me to find out it wasn't in fact related 

to the surface area. There was quite a bit of 

difference there. And as the analysis turned 

out, it was essentially airborne associated 

with handling a quantity of uranium metal 

regardless of the shape or the size or 

anything, because the slugs were giving just 

about as much airborne contamination as 

billets or dingots, which turns out pretty 

good for what we want, you know, makes the 

surrogate data useful regardless of the shape 

and size. So it helps a lot on this movement 

of cold uranium metal because you can have 

more of that as relative to what you're 

looking at. And I think that's all I wanted 
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1 to point out unless you wanted me to go over 

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anything in particular.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, let me ask 

the Work Group Members if they have particular 

questions on Dave's results. We have a more 

detailed critique that SC&A did and want to 

hear their comments and then perhaps get 

NIOSH's response to SC&A's comments, because I 

know that you've had a chance to look at 

those.

 MEMBER BEACH: Can I ask one 

thing?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Sure.

 MEMBER BEACH: Dave, how does the 

Putzier effect? Does it come into play in 

that?

 MR. ALLEN: The Putzier effect, 

when we went over that for the TBD-6000, kind 

of showed that it really didn't apply to the 

reduction of uranium-2 metal. It came into 

effect with the remelting. And for dingot 

production, that stuff is skipped, it's all
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1 combined into, you wouldn't get much of that 

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effect.

 Fernald or anyplace else that 

actually did a vacuum remelt of the derbies 

into an ingot, is where you would see that 

effect. And we didn't -- I didn't use any of 

that data. There's so much interference when 

you've got that going on that there's really 

no data we could use for what we wanted to do. 

But primarily, the airborne from that ends up 

being shorter lived beta gamma type of, it's 

protactinium-234m and thorium-234.

 From an internal dose standpoint, 

they're not real significant and so 

concentrating them by a factor of ten doesn't 

really change it all that much from an 

internal dose standpoint. It's mostly an 

external dose, a special beta. So for this 

analysis, it really wasn't a critical issue or 

an issue at all.

 MEMBER BEACH: But it would be for 

an external possibly?
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1 MR. ALLEN: From an external 

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standpoint it can be.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Bob?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I'm not sure I 

caught every word that Dave said. What you 

have in a Putzier effect is very short lived, 

thorium-234 with a 24 day half-life. So as 

Dave said, you know, you put your hand on it, 

sure, you know, it will give you getting the 

beta dose.

 But for internal, the most 

important first of all is the alpha dose. You 

get uranium that resides in the lungs for a 

long period of time and you get the lung dose 

from the -- whereas the dose from the thorium234 is virtually zero, by comparison. It's 

orders of magnitude smaller because first of 

all, it's not an alpha emitter. And second of 

all, it's short-lived. So it's a, you know, 

be completely lost in the noise.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you. 

Any other questions or comments? Okay, well, 
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1 let's just emphasize your bottom line then, 

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sort of two bottom lines. One is the activity 

that you associate with the handling. And the 

other is the surrogate data issue, so just 

recap your conclusions on that, put it on our 

record here.

 MR. ALLEN: Appendix BB used some 

surrogate data that was not similar to GSI. 

We tried to use that as a bounding estimate 

and the worker wanted to see if there was some 

data out there more applicable to GSI, and 

that's why we went searching for this data.

 And so this data was for, since 

this data was for various forms of uranium, I 

did that analysis to try to decide which of 

those forms would be most applicable to GSI 

from my analysis and deciding that all of 

those forms were applicable, so we took all 

that data and put it together and came up with 

a distribution resulting in a log normal with 

a median of 104 dpm cubic meter, I believe.

 And then from that data set, I put 
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1 through the Board's surrogate data, surrogate 

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data criteria to decide whether or not it is 

applicable to GSI per the Board's criteria. 

And I decided it was anyway, and then 

obviously that's reviewed.

 DR. NETON: I think it's important 

to point out, what Dave's done here is what I 

would consider a process specific analysis, 

which was not envisioned in TBD-6000, this 

process itself, which was a movement of 

uranium metal. And I think he might have put 

this in the White Paper, I don't remember, but 

this would fully be intended to be added to 

the TBD-6000 as another process.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, I noticed 

on the site or process similarities where, or 

no, in exclusivity I think it was, where the 

justification is called for. You indicated 

you would put that in Appendix BB. My 

suggestion is that you include all of the 

surrogate data issues in the Appendix, just as 

discussion points as to why this data set or 
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1 some version of it at least, is used.

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 And it's an important distinction 

between the general TBD-6000 and this as a 

site specific, as you say process related, 

because it deals with handling cold uranium, 

which is more specific than the general TBD6000. So you would have a commitment I think, 

to include that discussion in here if, in 

fact, this turns out to be agreeable to the 

Work Group and we are on the same page with 

SC&A.

 And I know they're, Bob has 

suggested some perhaps modifications, but 

let's hear from you, Bob, and again, we have 

your report and I don't think you need to go 

through it in complete detail, but you might 

want to highlight where you differed.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And then I'd 

like to hear response from NIOSH on whether 

you have some concerns about those issues or 

agree with them and so on. So why don't you 
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1 highlight where you found, or where you're 

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suggesting some differences. And do you have 

overheads you're planning to use?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes I do.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, while he's 

getting that set up, let's check again and 

make sure that, did John Ramspott get back on 

the line okay?

 MR. KATZ: Yes, two things I want 

to check on, John Ramspott, I'll just look and 

check in my email just for this actually. 

John Ramspott, are you now on and audible?

 (Off record discussion.)

 MR. KATZ: John Ramspott? Okay, 

John Ramspott, if you're on, we cannot hear 

you. And the other person I just wanted to 

check on is Dr. Poston. Are you on with us 

now? I heard someone taking themselves off 

mute but I don't hear a voice. Dr. Poston, 

are you online with us?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So, and Dr. 

McKeel is not online I gather?
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1 MR. KATZ: No. No, I don't expect 

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Dr. McKeel, I have a letter from Dr. McKeel to 

read later.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 (Off record discussion)

 MR. KATZ: Can someone who's on 

line speak just so that we know that I can 

hear people who are on line?

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Ted, can you tell 

this is John Ramspott?

 MR. KATZ: John, your phone is not 

functional still. I can hear you but just 

only by great effort, so something is wrong 

with your phone. Someone else on the line, 

can someone --

 MR. THURBER: This is Bill 

Thurber, I'm --

 MR. KATZ: Yes, you're clear as a 

bell, thank you though.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And John Mauro 

is clear.

 MR. KATZ: And John Mauro's clear. 
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1 I just wanted to make certain it was still 

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that it wasn't a problem with the phone, okay.

 MR. KINMAN: Yes, and this is Josh 

Kinman, I just joined shortly after you began 

the meeting, so I can hear everything fine.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, yes, I thought 

you could hear me, I just wanted to be sure I 

could hear you. Thanks, okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So, is John or, 

I guess we don't know whether he can, I guess 

he can hear us okay.

 MR. KATZ: John Ramspott, you can 

hear us, right?

 MR. KINMAN: I barely heard him 

say that, this is Josh, that he was going to 

move to another phone.

 MR. KATZ: Yes, okay, okay, so 

he's probably switching right now while we're, 

to another phone.

 MS. JESKE: This is Patricia 

Jeske, I'm on line now.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, we hear you 
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1 clearly. Thank you.

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 MS. JESKE: Okay, great.

 (Off record discussion)

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We're going to

wait just a minute here while the projector's 

being set up. Dr. Anigstein is projecting 

some materials that are in his written report, 

so I assume that everybody has copies of that 

report. It was distributed to the Work Group, 

to the petitioners, and is this also online 

now, the SC&A report?

 MR. KATZ: Yes, the SC&A report's 

posted, the NIOSH report's posted, yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, I think 

we're set to go then.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Very good. Okay, 

well this is basically some highlights from 

the report. There's nothing new in here, even 

though this briefing per se has not been 

distributed, it was just done at the last 

moment.

 So okay, I'll start off with the 
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1 table that was prepared, I took this out of 

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Dave Allen's report with some editing. And 

Dave provided 37 measurements of airborne 

uranium concentrations, the measurements were 

always stated in alpha activity as dpm per 

cubic meter. And the first six were for this 

type, for LeBlond, which was, what was LeBlond 

again? All of a sudden I have a mental block.

 MR. ALLEN: I think that was 

boring a hole in a billet.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Pardon? 

 MR. ALLEN: I think that was 

boring a hole in a billet.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes. Yes, right, 

right, that was a test to see whether they in 

fact were using, there we had in the past cast 

hollow billets, and it wasn't working out too 

well, so they were investigating the boring 

machine. So the first six were completely 

applicable to what was going on at SC&A, at 

GSI, excuse me. I can't even think, I work 

for that company.
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1 However, in looking over the data 

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set, we found six more that seemed to be quite 

applicable, that were in the same range of 

concentrations and that they were just like 

here with the operator actually hooking the 

billet up and removing the billet. He was 

working the controls of the boring machine, 

and it may sound well, but that's not 

comparable, well it is because the boring 

machine was working, but a constant flow of 

coolant, so there was really no airborne 

activity from the boring itself.

 There was this coolant, which was 

probably some kind of an oil, that was flowing 

right into the drill bit and all the chips 

were being washed out down there, you know, 

into a collection area. So the fact that the 

operator was nearby, this was a perfectly good 

example of concentration we wanted to, and the 

reason we wanted to add to the data set, I 

mean, because there was some other things that 

we thought was not applicable.
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1 The next one was a place called 

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Chambersburg. And we disagreed with 

Chambersburg, and I indicate why, this is 

actually LeBlond where I show the additional 

samples, the operating, BZ stand for breathing 

zone operator, operating controls of the 

machine, no visible dust or fumes or oil 

spatters for that, again, shouldn't have much 

of an impact. However, and then there was six 

more at LeBlond, same as 967, said that 967 

was this one.

 Now Chambersburg, these were, 

there were a few BZ samples that were used, 

these are the BZ samples that were used by 

NIOSH, operator working safety control of an 

impactor was located five feet west of the 

impactor safety control that is.

 However, they also had a lot of 

other samples that were much, much higher and 

there was really no basis for selecting those 

particular ones. This is again the same, 

these are these that were selected by NIOSH. 
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1 However, if they're going to select these, why 

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not select the operator impactor who was ten 

feet away, twice as far?

 And there is an observation of 

the, there was a cover letter, this is 

basically, all of these are reports from field 

personnel deployed by the National Lead of 

Ohio, which of course was the contractor 

operating Fernald, to these facilities, you 

know, to check up on the health and safety. 

So this was a report reporting back to a Dr. 

Quigley, I believe his name was, at National 

Lead.

 And he noted it was like a draft 

that was blowing towards this impactor 

operator, and giving him a very high 

concentration. So there was a lot of airborne 

uranium activity. And it happened to have 

missed the one that was five feet west, but it 

hit the one that was ten feet north.

 And since the whole operation was 

punching holes, was they were taking these 
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1 washers and punching holes in them with the 

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impactor, and then there were those removing 

the washers and putting the slugs into the 

furnace, this was not an applicable operation.

 This was a very different 

operation, we did a lot of processing of 

uranium, putting it into a furnace, punching 

holes in it, removing the washers, so we feel 

that this is really not applicable to GSI, it 

would distort the picture. We feel that those 

should have been removed, that's why we here 

indicated the blue is the one that should be 

removed, their work with them, blue and cross 

out those to be removed.

 And then we get to Tocco. Tocco 

is a place again, that was doing some tests of 

a furnace. And however, there were a lot of 

samples collected before these slugs went into 

a furnace, so that would have been applicable 

with some handling.

 And there were two campaigns, one 

in, no sorry, I didn't get a picture of those. 
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1 And they were about six months apart, and the 

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first campaign, there were two readings which 

were loading uranium slugs in preparation for 

heating them, and those are perfectly 

legitimate.

 And then there was another 

campaign two months later, and the only thing 

was, here they were using depleted uranium. 

The chambers, Tocco got depleted uranium as 

well as normal uranium, I think it was 

something from my memory of 5,600 pounds of 

depleted and only 2,000 pounds of normal. And 

since the earlier campaign was only normal, we 

assume that it will be safe to assume that 

this was primarily, if not entirely depleted 

uranium. It said on the sheet combination of 

both.

 So to be conservative and 

claimant-favorable, I took each of these 

concentrations that was listed in dpm per 

cubic meter, and said what if this had been 

normal and not depleted uranium? And the 
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1 result is, you multiply by the ratio of 

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specific activity between depleted and normal 

uranium and you end up at about a factor of 

1.8 I think is higher. So I took each of 

these readings that was in the NIOSH report 

and simply multiply it by this factor to come 

up with a higher reading. And this continues 

on to the next page here.

 Now at Fernald, we believe that 

these were very aggressive operations, 

breaking out the derby, cleaning the derby, 

removing the derby from the breakout table, 

that these were really again, not applicable, 

to simply handling of uranium.

 A derby is not, this is, it's 

called a derby because it looks like a hat 

when it comes out of the, when they reduce the 

uranium tetrafluoride to uranium metal, and 

you get this shape. And then later on, they 

remelt it, they melt it and make it into an 

ingot. So we felt that these should not 

really have been used.
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1 Then you get to Weldon Spring, 

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there were a couple of handling dingots that 

was exactly, probably similar to the dingot 

that was sent to GSI, so this was very 

applicable. However, what was then here was 

they took, the first two were fine, but then 

they took the installation removal of dingot 

in lathe. What they gave was only, they 

didn't give the raw data sheet, they gave a 

summary report and the raw data sheet wasn't 

available. And there were three numbers, 

they're actually in different units but, you 

know, microcuries and then we can get them 

down to dpm, and they gave high, low, and 

average, that were considered routine of all 

their report.

 But the high and the low were 

given and the average was given in terms of, 

not in terms of activity unit, but in terms of 

mass loading, so it's a microgram per cubic 

meter. And when you work it out, it comes out 

exactly between these two readings and it 
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1 would be very safe to say that it simply is 

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the average of these two and not a third data 

point. So our opinion is that this should be 

deleted, this one average should be deleted.

 Then on Weldon Spring, I think 

maybe there's an oversight because the Weldon 

Spring data was for general air samples. I 

mean, these were just samples taken somewhere 

in the room but not in the breathing zone of 

the operator. All the others were breathing 

zone samples. So these three just don't 

belong in that data set.

 However, there was another one 

that there was a single breathing zone sample 

from the same operation, that does belong 

there. So with that we pick up these three, 

included this one, and then there were three 

more setting of dingot which is applicable, 

it's labeled Weldon Spring. Actually, that 

facility was at Mallinckrodt. In other words, 

it was operating at Mallinckrodt but this was 

actually in the, I looked up the Mallinckrodt, 
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1 St. Louis facility. So it doesn't change the 

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data, it's just a explanatory point.

 And so then we reproduced the 

analysis that NIOSH gave. They did not give 

these raw data but they gave the results and 

reproduced how they got it, which is using one 

of the procedures of NIOSH. And these are the 

37 data points plotted, now this is the 

transformed log normal plot, so there would be 

a natural log of the values and here is the Z 

score, how far, how many standard deviations 

it is away from the geometric mean.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Let me 

interrupt, for people on the line, this graph 

is in Appendix A of the SC&A report.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, Figure 1.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: It's Figure 1.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: All right, okay. 

So we see that there is a reasonable fit, our 

square root of 0.878, with a number of points 

being well below that. So however, when we 

took this review status act of, we reduced it, 
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1 in other words, we added some, deleted others, 

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adjusted others, we ended up with 28 points. 

Now not all of them are plotted because there 

were eight non-detects, so they enter into 

this calculation but they don't show up on the 

plot.

 And then there was another point

of one dpm, which was just an outlier, but 

there's nothing else that low and that's 

really covered, we usually would have 

considered it a non-detect. So we removed 

that and we got this plat of way up to 0.946 r 

squared, with the points pretty evenly 

scattered, with no trend of a way again, 

showing you difference. Here you got the, 

sort of a big hump in the middle above the 

line, the lower and upper, so you would really 

by eye, if you want to plot a line, it would 

be more like a curve than a straight line. 

Whereas here, we've got a pretty good 

agreement.

 And then finally, doing the final 
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1 calculations, we find that, see there's 

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another way of calculating, which this is more 

of a personal opinion, well, shared by most of 

my colleagues, and that is when you have 

something that's really average for whether 

it's a log normal or not, it makes more sense 

just to interpret, so if you have like here, 

37 data points, the 95th percentile, with not 

making any judgement as to what the shape of 

it is, you just interpolate among like right 

here, would be the second and third highest 

points, it would be somewhere in there, there 

is a numerical method of interpolation, and 

when we do that for the NIOSH data, we get a 

very different value, somewhat different 

values, okay?

 If you take the 95th percentile, 

simply using the log normal formula, and you 

get 103, they bound it up to 104. But if you 

do the empirical interpolation, you get 83. 

So it's significantly lower, whereas on this 

adjusted data set, it really looks very much 
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1 like a log normal, the first three are the 

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same, your two techniques, 66.43 and 66.92. 

So we think that this might be a better value, 

it happens to be a little lower but we think 

it's more consistent with the data, more 

consistent with the operation.

 And then finally, here's sort of 

an abbreviated review of the five Board 

criteria. So Criteria 1 is the hierarchy of 

data, which means obviously use site data 

first and then you use, there is a hierarchy 

of how you use the surrogate data. Well, 

there is no monitoring, there is no site data, 

there is no monitoring of uranium, air 

concentrations or intakes. So therefore, the 

hierarchy of data, the surrogate data, is 

appropriate through the hierarchy.

 And then the other part of 

criteria is that there should be --

appropriate surrogate data could be used on 

four different memory now, only after 

appropriate adjustments have been made. Well, 
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1 taking the 95th percentile, which it was an 

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appropriate adjustment, because you're saying 

we don't really know how this conforms to GSI, 

so we take the upper end to be conservative 

and claimant-favorable, which is something 

that we agree with at SC&A.

 Second, exclusivity constraints, 

now with this data, do we get the right data 

and did we not exclude anything? This is the 

exclusive data set? We feel that it is. 

NIOSH, the 37 measurements, at seven sites or 

seven operations, some of them were more than 

one operation at the same site, and we reduced 

it to 28 measurements, five sites.

 But in either case, this is a 

fairly exhaustive search and I'm sure Dave 

would agree, we were talking offline about 

this, that probably if they search more they 

would come up with still additional, but it 

most likely would not change the picture since 

we got a distribution that fits this, you 

know, the fact that it does look log normal 
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1 means that it's, you know, that it pretty much 

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covers the spectrum of likely results, that 

you could get more but it wouldn't change the 

picture.

 Then the Criteria 3 is the site or 

process similarities. Well, the data that was 

retained, in our opinion, we got rid of the 

derbies, the billets, the slugs, and the 

dingots. Well, billets and dingots were 

definitely handled at GSI. We know dingots, 

we know ingots, which was simply a dingot 

that's a different form of making them, most 

likely billets. Slugs were not, did not 

correspond but they really did not get a very 

different value.

 And then the process, so the 

material was similar, the process, handling of 

traditional uranium objects was very similar, 

using a chain hoist, which is what they used 

at GSI, for instance. For the slugs there was 

weighed a few pounds, they were handed by 

hand. But basically, it's as good as you get.
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1 Then there's the temporal 

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consideration, were they the same time period? 

Well, the surrogate data spanned 1956 to 1968, 

operations at GSI were '53 to '66, so there's 

a lot of overlap. And even though at GSI they 

started a couple of years earlier, there's no 

reason there would be any difference then 

because it wasn't as if oh gee, you know, 

suddenly in the middle of the period people 

got more safety conscious and started doing 

things differently. With what we know there 

was no concern about the uranium dust at GSI 

and there was no difference in the practice 

over those years, that we know of.

 And then finally, there is 

plausibility, and the criteria is a little 

able to be interpreted, we talked about 

models. And it mentions for the models side 

that has it, what they mean by the model I'm 

trying to realize is any models that was used 

to calculate, this would go more into 

dosimetry calculations, the workers aren't 
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1 really -- it doesn't really apply here.

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 But this is scientifically 

plausible and these were measurements made by 

the Health and Safety Personnel of NLO, they 

were the government contractor and they in 

turn were, they had the AEC Health and Safety 

Office looking over their shoulder. So these 

were measurements as good as you get for that 

time period, because they were perfectly, 

scientifically were plausible.

 And the workplace plausibility 

would be the lifting and handling at surrogate 

sites, is representative of operational GSI. 

So we feel that either data set fulfilled this 

criteria and we think that the adjusted data 

set is a little more consistent with these 

criteria.

 So even though we feel we would 

recommend some adjustment to the actual 

numbers used to make them more consistent, 

more scientifically correct, that's an issue 

that could be worked out in the Appendix BB in 
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1 the second version, but there is no 

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showstopper here, there is no reason to 

believe that NIOSH cannot, well let me put it 

more positive. We believe that NIOSH can, in 

fact, reconstruct doses from inhalation of 

uranium.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay --

 MR. KATZ: Let's just check on the 

line again. Dr. Poston, have you joined us? 

Dr. Poston, you might, have you joined us?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Check with John 

again, too.

 MR. KATZ: And also, let me just 

check then while I'm doing this, John 

Ramspott, do you have a phone that now allows 

you to --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Can you hear me 

now?

 MR. KATZ: Yes! Thank you, John. 

That's much better, thank you.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: And I did have a 

comment on those SC&A report about a part of 
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1 it, when there's time.

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 MR. KATZ: Yes, we'll have a 

session for petitioners and other interested 

parties coming up. Thank you.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Okay, thank you.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Let's see, Dave, 

do you want to comment on, bottom line, it 

looks like the value that SC&A has come up 

with, or sort of their recommended value is 

actually lower than yours.

 But I think the question here is 

are the recommendations that they've made, do 

you sort of agree with those in terms of 

there's some points that they suggest you 

might not include and others that you should 

add, and a couple others that should be 

adjusted? What comments do you have on that?

 MR. ALLEN: By and large, I agree 

with the suggestions on, you know, some of the 

data that should not have been included or 

should have been included. I think I wrote 

down about three things that it's minor 
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1 disagreement on, I don't know if you want to 

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go through detail on this at this point or --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, we don't 

need to necessarily, I suppose if you 

adjusted, you're going to get a slightly 

different number here. It's going to be --

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, I think --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- if you do any 

adjustment, it's going to end up lower than 

what you have now, but it will be at least as 

high as Bob's number or somewhere in between.

 MR. ALLEN: Well, with the ones I 

disagree with, yes, I think it will fall 

between the two, with the final answer.

 MR. KATZ: I think it's useful to 

have it on the record --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, sure.

 MR. KATZ: -- a discussion of 

these points though.

 MR. ALLEN: It would take five 

minutes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, at least 
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1 

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tell us, you know, respond then, yes.

 MR. ALLEN: Okay, the first one 

was LeBlond, Bob, there was a few others that 

you could have added. I think he mentions 

that they are GAs, but it's nearby, that the 

ventilation blowing that way is essentially 

making --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: They were chambers 

blowing, where it would be, the one that was 

ten feet away had a much higher dose than the 

one that was five feet away because of the way 

the air movement was.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, I --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: LeBlond, we just

added some that we, I just saw some that 

looked like they could have been more --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well you started 

out six for LeBlond, to add.

 MR. ALLEN: Okay, yes, you did add 

some for LeBlond, I got the wrong reason 

there. But there was some added for LeBlond 

while the billet was being bored, while a hole 
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1 was being bored in the billet. I didn't add 

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those originally just because, as Bob said, it 

was cooled with some type of oil and I thought 

that acted as an agent that would hold down 

any airborne, which is not similar to handling 

the dry, cold uranium metal. I mean it's --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: It's a moot point 

though. It's a minor point.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, okay.

 MR. ALLEN: I just thought those 

could be disputed so I did not add them.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay. Well again, 

that's not going to change --

 MR. ALLEN: None of these are 

going to change anything very much.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No, not at all.

 MR. ALLEN: Chambersburg, Bob 

thought was not applicable enough to be 

included, and I don't think I disagree there. 

It was, I had to stretch to get some more 

somewhat applicable data, so I don't disagree 

with --
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1 MEMBER BEACH: Were you looking 

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because of the dates also? Those were done in 

'57, that's what I thought might have been why 

you added them?

 MR. ALLEN: Honestly, no --

 MEMBER BEACH: No?

 MR. ALLEN: -- I'm not sure what 

it does to the date, so, we had some Weldon 

Springs from '56 so --

 MEMBER BEACH: Well, just trying

to get into the time period.

 MR. ALLEN: I didn't honestly --

 MEMBER BEACH: Didn't look --

 MR. ALLEN: -- the dates were 

somehow looked at at a later date just because 

handling cold metal that's standard industrial 

stuff is really not, site for data specific, 

you know, today you would pick them up with a 

fork truck or something, it wouldn't change on 

the bidding.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Chambersburg was 

1957, so it's right in the middle of a --
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1 MR. ALLEN: Yes, that's what they 

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--

 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

 MR. ALLEN: On Tocco, the only 

disagreement I had was the, I didn't get the 

factor that he used to adjust those. He 

adjusted them from being depleted to being 

normal with a 1.88 factor, I thought it should 

be something more like 1.66, it's like a ten 

or 15 percent disagreement there, it's no big 

deal.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: You mean that it 

shouldn't be 100 percent included?

 MR. ALLEN: No, I just thought 

that the depleted versus natural should be 

more like a 1.66 factor.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I'm sorry, I like, 

I had calculation on the --

 MR. ALLEN: Okay, I mean, I could 

be wrong and we will --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I was using data 

originally from Fernald, from the Fernald site 
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1 where they had the, I mean, you know, we all 

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agree what's natural uranium. Depleted is 

not, you know, they give you more than one 

type of depleted uranium to arrive on 

something on the Fernald site.

 MR. ALLEN: That could be true.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: All right.

 MR. ALLEN: Most depleted I'm used 

to, at least from Fernald is 0.2 percent, but 

we'll find a basis and, you know, document --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, that's not 

going to change the number very much, it will 

be 1.6 to 1.8 or something like that, you 

know.

 MR. ALLEN: As far as Fernald 

getting, eliminating those, I don't disagree. 

I even put in my White Paper that it could be 

elevated because of the more aggressive 

removing of the crust and stuff, but I 

included them to try to get more samples that 

were at least somewhat representative, even 

though that one would have been slightly 
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1 elevated. Bob thought it should be removed I 

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17 

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21 

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don't, like I said, don't really disagree.

 Weldon Spring, he said we had 

three summary numbers of minimum, maximum, and 

an average. And he pointed out that the 

average falls right in between those two, and 

I don't disagree with that either. I think 

that I probably should not have included the 

average because it looks like it is the

average of the two.

 And the Weldon Spring, oh, he 

removed three of them from Weldon Spring 

because they were GAs. These were loading of 

slugs into baskets and then the loading of 

these baskets into what they called a coffin. 

I think from the description of the process 

which I'm trying to find here really quick, 

it's a pretty localized area.

 Yes, from the description of the

process, it's steel baskets loaded with 60 

slugs. Then a crane hoists the baskets into a 

boat, which they said is, did I miss 
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1 something? Which they slide into the coffins, 

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says the boat is merely a flat plate with 

sides, which slides into a long cylinder tube 

called a coffin. And then the whole assembly 

is hoisted up into a furnace.

 So all this is happening to put 

into something that's then hoisted up. It's 

got to be just a small, localized area. GA 

versus BZ didn't seem to be a significant pool 

of that so I included them.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: They agreed, the

issue with the Weldon Spring is that if you 

look on their operation, if you look on the 

original sheet which I'm showing here, it has 

the three operation, the positioning and both, 

you know, then there are notes alongside 

those, one, two, and three. And two is 

general air, not breathing zone. Three is 

breathing zone. It may not have been obvious 

or it may have been just, you know, slipped 

through the cracks.

 MR. ALLEN: No, I realize that. I 
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1 just, similar to what you were saying with 

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20 

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LeBlond, I thought it was a localized enough 

area so even if they labeled it GA --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Oh, I understand, 

okay, I'm sorry, I didn't get what you were 

saying. Okay, I hear you.

 MR. ALLEN: -- so I'm, you know, 

they end up being slightly higher than the 

geometric mean than Bob calculated with his 

data set. I think you could include those and 

make it slightly higher. It's going to be 

somewhat irrelevant, you know, the difference 

between it, doing what I wanted to do here, 

it's probably going to put it somewhere my 

original number and what Bob got, which I'd 

like to fault towards conservative on that, 

but I'm not big on any of these either way, 

that's my opinion on where I fell with Bob's 

opinions.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, I guess maybe 

I'm just being very technical and it's --

 MR. KATZ: So do you think that's 
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1 reasonable, Bob?

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Pardon?

 MR. KATZ: Do you think what Dave 

just explained is reasonable?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: That he was using 

the, well, I guess I'd just think why not be 

consistent and use breathing zone throughout 

and not throw in the, you know, the different 

type of measurement in this one case?

 MR. ALLEN: I understand that 

opinion and I'd like to get the workers' 

opinion in all honestly, because I can go 

either way on that. I understand Bob's 

opinion and my opinion was that it was, you 

know, in those cases the breathing zones are 

not lapels hanging on people, they're an air 

sample in the vicinity. And the difference 

between a GA and a BZ is somewhat arbitrary 

sometimes, it's quite the small area.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I see. Oh, I 

thought, pardon my ignorance, I thought that 

they actually were wearing little collectors.
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1 MR. ALLEN: Not at that time.

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 DR. NETON: Not in that time 

period.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Oh, I see. I got 

you.

 MR. ALLEN: Actually, a lot of 

times they took a big air sample and almost 

stuck it by somebody's face.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I see. Well I 

know it was somewhat later --

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, the lapel?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- when they were 

doing the --

 MEMBER BEACH: So you're talking 

about the three that are 25, 25, and 25 that 

Bob passed out?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right. And I had 

0.23.

 MEMBER BEACH: You're talking the 

one on the front, the 56.26, it was spurious 

data based on average? What was that?

 MR. ALLEN: I agree with him, he 
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1 kept the two, that was a summary that had the 

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minimum, maximum, and the average. Bob 

pointed out that that average falls exactly 

between those two, he thinks it's an average 

of two and I don't disagree with him, so it 

would be --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: You would use 

the two original data points?

 MR. ALLEN: Use the two, just like 

Bob did, you know, use the two --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, two data 

points, right.

 MR. ALLEN: -- the minimum and the 

max, that average seems to be a --

 MEMBER BEACH: In the middle, that 

makes sense.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I wouldn't argue 

very strenuously about that last point. If we 

clarify that the breathing zone, then there's 

not that much of a distinction there, I can go 

along with that, not a show stopper.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And then was 
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1 that it?

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 MR. ALLEN: That was it, I'm 

sorry.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, so you 

would make those adjustments. You would not 

add the six LeBlonds that he was talking 

about.

 MR. ALLEN: I wouldn't.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But you will 

delete the three Chambersburgs, you'll adjust 

for depleted uranium?

 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: You'll delete 

Fernald --

 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- and keep the 

Weldon Spring?

 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

 MEMBER BEACH: What about the last 

one he makes on the second page of his table, 

the slugs, the positioning and bolting of the 

flange, would you add that one then, too? the 
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1 one that's in red?

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: It's the one we 

disagreed on the sample.

 MR. ALLEN: I'm trying to remember 

--

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The Weldon 

Spring?

 MEMBER BEACH: It's another Weldon 

Spring.

 MR. ALLEN: Okay, I just missed 

that one.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, it was on the 

last page.

 MR. ALLEN: I can go either way on 

that. I think my thinking when I went through 

them was the description of this coffin was a 

container that they bolted a lid on, so once 

you start containerizing it, you know, I 

thought maybe it's not applicable. In reality 

it's --

 MEMBER BEACH: Well, that's that

positioning and then bolting, so you'd be 
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1 actually putting it in and then bolting it 

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down maybe?

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, so I mean, it's 

like some of it is, some of it isn't, and I 

can go either way. I can keep that one. I 

think just by the same argument I made, even 

if it was being containerized, while it's 

being containerized is relevant. After it's 

containerized it's not --

 MEMBER BEACH: It's not.

 MR. ALLEN: -- and this is kind of 

a while, so yes, it probably could be added 

easily. I would agree to add that one.

 MEMBER MUNN: Not going to make 

significant differences in the outcome.

 MR. ALLEN: None of these are, I 

don't think.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: None of it is at 

this point.

 MEMBER MUNN: No.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, so SC&A 

and NIOSH with those changes, would be in 
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1 agreement on how we handle the residual 

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internal dose. This is for the period up to 

the residual period. This is for the 

operational period.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And then for the 

residual periods, just comment on what would 

be done for the residual period.

 MR. ALLEN: Okay, now I can't 

remember what we did.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, are you 

going to take as a starting point --

 MR. ALLEN: The current --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- the value 

that you have and then deplete it in some way?

 MR. ALLEN: All I can remember off 

the top of my head, I'm sorry I'm not ready 

for that, but as I recall, the current 

residual period was based on the operational 

period.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 MR. ALLEN: And so I haven't seen 
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1 anything that would require us to change that 

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approach.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 MR. ALLEN: The number would 

change --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But the number

would change, the starting number.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Now we may still, 

and this is not, the focus here was on the 

surrogate data.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. Yes, I'm 

--

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: It doesn't mean 

that when it comes down to actually doing the 

dose calculations, there's going to be some 

differences. I mean, we had, the last, you 

know, from last summer, just our review of 

surrogate data, really conflated two issues. 

One was the data that was used and the other 

one was the actual model that was used to 

calculate the airborne activity outside of the 

time of the handling of the metal and also the 
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1 contamination on the floor and how it goes on. 

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So those two issues were conflated all into 

one. And that was a problem.

 And now, we separate this. We 

were looking, we said this is on surrogate 

data. And so we said we're sticking to 

surrogate data and we have come to, you know, 

we have come fairly close together.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: But the other 

issue, that's for another day.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well --

 MEMBER BEACH: And that's in BB, 

right, the model in BB you're talking about?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right, right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, now I see 

only the operational period --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: But that will 

inflate. That also affect the operational 

period because it affects the --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Oh, yes, no, 

this is a component in the operational period.
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1 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right, yes.

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: At the end of 

the operational period, we know, we have a 

starting value now for airborne. And you have 

--

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Not really. I 

mean, the only thing that we addressed here 

and that we're coming to, as I said, 

reasonable proximity, not total agreement, is 

what are the airborne concentrations due to 

the handling of uranium, the disturbance of 

the uranium?

 We have not discussed, and we 

haven't gotten to it here, what is it, the 

position on the floor, how much accumulates on 

the floor, how much is resuspended in between 

operations and even during the operations? 

That has not been addressed here and we 

deliberately kept that separate because 

otherwise, there would be a much more confused 

issue.

 MEMBER BEACH: Well, and that 
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1 affects the operation period also, '53 to '66, 

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correct? That issue you just brought up, what 

was on the floor, what was resuspended?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, but the same 

mechanism, if I can briefly recap the paper, 

the report from last summer, was the picture, 

okay, the picture that NIOSH made was the 

operators, the betatron operators go into the 

betatron shooting room, they bring in the 

ingot or dingot or slice or whatever shape 

there is, and they spend some time handling 

it, putting it into position, handling, 

certainly handling the uranium, of handling 

the betatron apparatus to get into position, 

putting the film in, and so forth.

 They're in the room with the 

uranium, then they leave the room going into 

the control room and set up, you know, the 

betatron shot, and make the betatron shot, 

come back in. And there's even some 

disagreement as to what fraction of the time, 

we know how many hours the betatron operators 
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1 are employed in handling the uranium. That's 

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the number of hours that Mallinckrodt paid 

for.

 So we can say there's an upper 

limit that they said, you know, not to exceed 

$500 in one quarter, I mean as an example. So 

we know how much time was spent. And if we 

come in agreement on the activity in the room, 

we know how much they were inhaling from the 

metal that they were handling on that day.

 Now there's a second component, 

which they were exposed to all the time, that 

would be in the betatron room, would go in 

most the time that they were doing, you know, 

task things, and that is residual activity on

the floor, that has deposited during this 

time. And maybe some chunks of uranium that 

are not airborne that might have sloughed off 

and fallen to the floor that are ground 

underfoot and eventually become airborne.

 And then that same picture, that

during the in between times, continues on into 
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1 a residual period where they continued using 

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that room and the continued stirring of the 

dust that had been deposited. And there, that 

matter is not being addressed today, or at 

least I have not addressed that matter here, 

that's a different matter and all the issues 

that were raised, that we raised in the report 

that came out I believe in June, are still 

there. They're still on the table. They have 

not been resolved.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well keep in 

mind now that this whole thing arose out of 

the residual period, where we were talking 

about what the value was to use for inhalation 

or the internal dose for the residual period. 

And the surrogate data criteria question arose 

as a result of considering the residual 

period.

 MEMBER BEACH: The residual 

period, yes.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right, but that 

may be the origin --
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And then we 

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said, yes but then that has to go back into 

the operational period.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right, yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So, and at one 

point, we had this data set that was a 

starting point for the residual period, but 

then realized that there had been these clean 

up things that the petitioner pointed out, and 

there was question about using that starting 

value and then depleting it over the residual 

period.

 So what I'm trying to get a feel 

for is because the recommendation that we take 

to the Board has to include the residual 

period. So I'm really asking that question. 

Do we have the starting point for the residual 

period? 

 We have this airborne value, which 

we say comes from the handling. Now is there 

some other component that's added to that to 

start the residual period? Now Jim, I thought 
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1 you had a model --

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 DR. NETON: Well we do, I mean --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- that if you 

knew the airborne --

 DR. NETON: This is a standard 

TIB-70 application.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, right.

 DR. NETON: I think what Bob is 

alluding to is that --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Is there a piece 

that you add to it?

 DR. NETON: -- if this were a 

standard operation that occurred everyday for 

the duration of the project, we would just 

apply a TIB-70 and allow that air 

concentration that we just agreed upon in 

principle to settle out, with its own settling 

velocity over a period of three days, I 

suppose is what you would do there?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Well, there two --

 DR. NETON: And then you end up 

with a surface contamination level that would 
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1 be the starting point for the residual period.

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 DR. NETON: Now I know Bob is 

talking about something different, which is 

there are periods when, they didn't do this 

all the time. So the question is, is how much 

time did they do this and how much time do you 

allow for the material to deposit on the 

ground? To me that's sort of a Site Profile 

type issue. I think conceptually this could 

be done --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

 DR. NETON: -- now that they've 

agreed on the air concentration value.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I agree, I agree. 

It doesn't mean we're --

 DR. NETON: So it's a matter of 

details not can it be done or not.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, yes.

 DR. NETON: I guess that's what 

I'm --

 MR. ALLEN: And I think there, 
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1 just to add a little bit, Appendix BB was 

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written before TIB-70 and I think there may be 

some inconsistencies in what was done there 

versus TIB-70, so there will be some 

adjustment to make it --

 DR. NETON: But if we agree on 

what the upper air concentration was during 

the operations, it's a matter of deciding how 

many hours that occurred to go to the ground,

and then what the resuspension factor is --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 DR. NETON: -- and then I think 

it's --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: From there you

get a starting value for the residual period 

and you deplete it.

 DR. NETON: To use John Mauro's 

words, a tractable problem.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, right.

 MR. ALLEN: Right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, but I want 

to pin down then on the record that that's 
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1 what you would be doing --

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 DR. NETON: Exactly.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- the case 

number.

 DR. NETON: The key is to have the 

air concentration.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 DR. NETON: Once you know that 

then you can solve.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, it's a 

starting point.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I agree.

 MEMBER BEACH: So I don't know if 

we're not finished talking about the surrogate 

data yet, correct?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, both 

parties here have agreed. I think we want to 

--

 MEMBER BEACH: They have agreed,

but you haven't heard from the petitioner --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No, we want to 
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1 hear from them.

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 MEMBER BEACH: -- and I had some 

questions that --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We want to hear 

from the petitioners next, too. So we have 

several documents that Dr. McKeel distributed 

the past couple of weeks. I have one, let's 

see, I'm looking for the dates on these. I 

have one from November 9th, one from November 

11th, and one from Monday the 26th.

 MEMBER BEACH: There's one from 

the 17th also.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Let's see, yes. 

And apparently Dr. McKeel is not on the line 

today. I don't know if John Ramspott's going 

to speak to these?

 MR. KATZ: He had said he'll have 

some comments when he gets to his opportunity.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well let's go 

ahead and have the petitioner comments or 

maybe Pat Jeske has some comments as well.

 MR. KATZ: Yes, and there's Pat 
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1 too. But let me ask, someone on the line is 

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not on mute who's shuffling papers, and you'd 

be surprised how audible your shuffling is for 

other people on the line. So somebody needs 

to mute their phone. And then, Paul, I think 

you would like to hear from them now --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Sure, yes.

 MR. KATZ: -- John Ramspott and 

Pat Jeske, let's start with Pat, Pat's a 

petitioner.

 MS. JESKE: Yes, I had a new 

concern that I just wanted to put before the 

Board. It's about the claimant-favorable 

issue. I recently had a reopened case for 

dose reconstruction, and I know you don't 

address that, but it was [identifying 

information redacted] and he had opened the 

first case with prostate cancer in 2007. In 

2010 he contracted leukemia, AML, in fact.

 The dose reconstruction which 

really concerns me came back at a ten to 20 

percent range, PoC, they couldn't give me the 
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1 exact. And I questioned that and basically I 

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was told that nothing's going to change unless 

Appendix BB is revised. And at that time, 

everything would be reopened for everyone, 

they don't have to reopen it themselves.

 My concern is, you know, even 

before this petition started, leukemia was, 

you know, was almost a given. And now the 

ranges went down to ten to 20 percent? I 

mean, I'm really concerned. And I'm not just 

concerned about [identifying information 

redacted], believe me. I'm thinking how many 

others have been treated the same way.

 This is something I wanted to put 

before the Board, you know, the payoff 

percentage is so, so low. Compensation has 

just been very low for these GSI employees. 

This is just something I want you to think 

about reviewing, maybe even investigating.

 I find it to be very incompetent 

to come back with a number like that with two 

primary cancers being what they are. And I 
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1 have no idea why I'm not getting any answers. 

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[Identifying information redacted], under 

duress, but I accompanied that with a letter 

that I definitely don't agree with it. But 

she was told that if she doesn't sign it by 

November 22nd, her case would close.

 And my concern is for the 

claimants in general. I don't believe that 

this is happening to just her, that it may 

just be an error, but they're not telling me 

that it's an error. They've had every

opportunity to tell me that and they have not. 

And I've not heard from the Department of 

Labor.

 MR. KATZ: To Dave, do you want to 

address this or do you want me to --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, I don't 

know if we can talk about specific cases but -

- 

 MR. KATZ: No, no, not about the 

specific case, of course.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- the general -
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 MR. KATZ: The general situation.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- situation.

 MR. ALLEN: I could mention one 

general thing that she said was something 

about leukemias routinely are, well, two 

things. One, she said that the compensation 

rate at GSI was so much lower than every other 

site, and that's simply not true. GSI --

 MS. JESKE: No, I didn't say that 

it's lower than any other site, just that the 

PoC for two primary cancers, the prostate and 

AML is a ten to 20 percent PoC range. That's 

all I was given was the range.

 MR. ALLEN: Okay, that was the 

other thing I wanted to address is it is true 

that a leukemia, every case is different with 

the demographics as far as latency, et cetera, 

but in general terms, leukemias often will 

result in a higher PoC, not too, for 

compensation, often, not every time by any 

means.
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1 Most of these other sites, or many 

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other sites, you get a considerable amount of 

internal exposure, airborne activity, et 

cetera. GSI is very different in that case. 

There was no manipulation of radioactive 

material other than moving a chunk of uranium 

metal in and moving it back out.

 MS. JESKE: He was a welder.

 MR. ALLEN: And the main doses 

that you would see at GSI, that we know after 

all this time of reviewing this are external 

doses, which is not unique but very few sites 

have this primarily external, very little 

internal dose that you see at GSI. And that 

makes a large difference when it comes to 

something like leukemia, where that primary 

exposure is usually from internal dose.

 MS. JESKE: You don't find that 

PoC to be low? You don't think that's low 

then, is that what you're telling me?

 MR. ALLEN: I think that's the way 

the --
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1 MS. JESKE: Because I think that's 

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an error, at least I hope it is.

 MR. ALLEN: -- the assumption I'm 

going to have to make at this point is that if 

the dose estimate followed the Appendix BB, 

then it's not high, it's not low, it's just 

what the estimate will give you. And like you 

mentioned, there will be, at some point, some 

changes to Appendix BB. But from what we've 

seen here today, the internal dose of that may 

actually be lower than what's currently in 

Appendix BB.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Pat, did you 

have any other questions or comments on these 

items right now?

 MS. JESKE: No, I just wanted that 

to be brought forth in the concern of other 

previous dose reconstructions done --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, okay.

 MS. JESKE: -- low percentages 

coming about and the why of it all.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you.
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1 MS. JESKE: Just see how many 

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others are being treated this way.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Sure. Okay and 

John Ramspott, do you have some comments or 

questions?

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Yes, just a 

comment, actually it applies to both SC&A and 

to David Allen's recent White Paper. And one 

of them I think is, maybe I'm wrong, but an 

important technical thing, I have provided 

proof contrary to the fact that both SC&A and 

NIOSH's papers are basing surrogate data on 

uranium that has been post-cropped, postscalped, post, actually gone through the mill. 

Because everything they're talking about are 

billets, slugs, those are machined products.

 And in the reading I've done, and 

I did look at Broomfield, or Westbrook and 

Bloom, the reference that Dr. Bob uses, those 

are all down the road activities. Matter of 

fact, I need to reread that document again, 

but if I'm not mistaken, they don't even 
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1 mention the non-destructive testing that was 

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done on the uranium prior to any of these 

other things happening, in that article. Now 

the documents that I base my assumption on, I 

don't know think it's an assumption, I think 

it's a fact now, the one in particular, I'm 

going to quote this so that nobody's mistaken. 

And I have provided this in the past.

 It's from the Symposium on NonDestructive Tests, Field of Nuclear Energy, 

dated 1957, so we're talking our era, and it 

was held in Chicago, name stated is GSI, so a 

lot of the people that are involved in GSI I'm 

sure were in attendance. And some of the 

names, you know, are actually AEC experts on 

the subject, an one in particular is a Mr. 

McClain.

 And for the record, I'm going to 

read this so that nobody misunderstands it. 

And I have provided it and you probably have 

it there now, "The amount of metal to be, to 

be removed, by cropping in order to produce 
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1 sound material for rolling, is determined by 

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the use of high energy X-rays."

 That's early in the game. That's 

the first step in the game. All of the 

surrogate data that everybody's using for 

their analysis is with down the road items. 

Now the other big factor that goes along with 

that now, and we've got pictures of it. I 

mean, it's definitely published information. 

On that same page, the various contractors, 

Mallinckrodt's named. Mallinckrodt Chemical 

Works is named here. So is National Lead, and 

we know that's Fernald. So they're named. I 

mean, they're using this process.

 So slugs, billets, derbies, that 

he talked about, and the pictures I've sent 

you, you know, from Mallinckrodt operation 

Weldon Spring, shows those dingots, you can 

see a different color at the top, which is 

eventually cropped. You can see the shaggy 

sides. There's not a little bit of crust on 

there. And I'm not talking about, you know, 
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1 that when they ultimately start in the bomb, 

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that's 4,500 pounds according to 

Mallinckrodt's document that I actually 

received out of Weldon Spring, which was 

authored by their Chairman, but I assume he's 

pretty knowledgeable.

 They start out at 4,700 pounds. 

And then when they break them out, everybody 

used the term breakout, I have a picture of 

it, about 700 pounds of that or more, is taken 

out. Thirty-three hundred pounds is exactly 

what they say a dingot is after you take your 

magnesium fluoride, I guess, out of it, or 

break it off.

 Now no one seems to account for 

it. That's a lot of crust. Now here's the 

other thing that none of these other sites 

have. I'll guarantee you those slugs may be 

non-destructive tested after they're 

essentially machined and canned, but GSI's 

dingots and ingots and slices, were betatron 

tested.
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1 None of these other products from 

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any other surrogate site that I've seen here, 

that you guys have discussed, have gone 

through fission, like everybody admits has 

happened at GSI. So all the fission products 

that everybody's talked about, and I don't 

know enough about them, you guys are the 

experts, you tell me if I'm wrong, I don't 

hear anybody talking about any of that.

 And this is, I agree with Dr. Bob, 

this is the whole issue. There's still stuff 

on the floor, in the air. The surrogate stuff 

is out of that bounds, that's a different 

subject. Now with respect, and I totally 

respect everybody that's involved with this. 

I'm disappointed, and I'm using that term, 

disappointed.

 It's almost like everybody has put 

a nice wrapping on this and is ignoring this 

fact, that the material that we should be 

looking at is what really went to GSI, not 

what slugs, billets, they've all been 
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1 machined, they been through presses, they've 

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been canned, they've been, you know, I heard 

drill it, I heard the one where you drill 

through the thing and pour oil down while 

you're, that's not what happened at GSI, 

that's not surrogate data. If anything, the 

oil would make it much safer.

 Now when I read the documents, and 

it even says in here, Bob's last document, 

which we just got it, I got it yesterday so I 

haven't read it ten times like I normally do, 

dingots would be, would presumably, I see 

words like presumably, at oxidized surface 

resulting in bomb reduction process. However, 

it is likely that most, loosely adherent oxide 

would be removed during the surface cleanup 

with the pneumatic chipping hammer, Westbrook 

and Bloom. I agree, but that's all after, 

after they've been to GSI, not before. That 

whole thing is done after.

 And the guideline out of this 

symposium attests to that. And again, like I 
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1 said, the Chairman, or the top executive at 

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Mallinckrodt, this is out of his brochure that 

he issued, which I was given out at the 

visitor site, chemical analysis and betatron 

examination of early dingots confirmed the 

expectation that the inner core of the dingot, 

under, and I'm going to quote this, "Under a 

contaminated surface layer, was sound metal."

 The contaminated surface layer was 

still on when it went to GSI, that's what they 

were trying to find out. Now I am, I'm 

disappointed. People just don't want to 

recognize the fact, and I have shared this, 

and I have emailed it, and I have sent it. 

It's not just me making this up. These are 

published documents. Nobody wants to accept 

that.

 MR. KATZ: John, thanks. John --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: If you can disprove 

it, please do.

 MR. KATZ: John, I think folks 

here are ready to respond to that if you'd --
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1 MR. RAMSPOTT: Yes, that would be 

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great, go ahead.

 MR. KATZ: -- if you'd like to 

hear what they have to say.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Sure, I'd love to.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, I'd like to start 

this off, Bob, with some actual facts. And 

the actual facts are, in the uranium reduction 

process that makes the metal from green salt, 

it's a mag fluoride thermite process we've 

discussed before in this, it results in some 

still powdery form, but some very hard 

magnesium phosphate or mag fluoride, it's a 

white, hard crystal that adheres to the derby, 

the dingot, whatever you're producing in this 

reduction process.

 That material is then chipped off, 

it's cleaned out at the breakout, either 

chipped off, often with an air chisel or a 

needle gun, et cetera. That is what Bob, or 

I'm sorry, that's what John was mentioning and 

confusing with the second part of this, that 
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1 when you remelt uranium, you produce these 

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impurities that will float to the top, kind of 

like a slag when you're welding, that material 

is sawed off, top cropped, and that is what 

John is saying was X-rayed to decide where the 

metal was good and how far you'd have to saw 

it.

 That is completely and 100 percent 

separate from what would be taken off with the 

needle gun or air chisel, et cetera. That 

would be done at Mallinckrodt before it went 

to GSI, no doubt about it.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: No, the article 

said differently, Dave.

 MR. ALLEN: No doubt about, it 

would be taken off before it went to GSI, 

number one. Number two, it is mag fluoride 

with a very low uranium content, we already 

know it's around the one percent uranium 

range. So even chipping that stuff off is not 

the highest airborne causing operation in the 

world. Number three, the air samples that I 
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1 did give to this include air chiseling of 

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derbies, which is the exact same process and 

exactly what you're talking about. So yes, it 

was considered --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Dave, I disagree --

 MR. ALLEN: John, it's my turn 

here. It was considered --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: All right.

 MR. ALLEN: -- it was in my data, 

it's not a significantly different number, 

okay? Number two, the dingots, if you look at 

the data, part of that is hoisting these 

dingots and putting them on a lathe. The 

lathe is what was used to finish the surface, 

take that rough surface and finish it to a 

smooth surface. Obviously, these air samples 

are taken before it was finished. It is still 

the rough surface. If there was any crust, 

any mag fluoride crust that was not cleaned 

off, it would be there in those air samples. 

Now how, in the world, are these not 

representative of what you're talking about?
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1 MR. RAMSPOTT: I, am I, are you 

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done now?

 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Okay, I'll, didn't 

want to interrupt you. I just read the 

article and what it said. If that article is 

incorrect --

 MR. ALLEN: Your interpretation is 

incorrect.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Do you have another 

document, just like this document, that spells 

out the process that you're saying happened?

 MR. ALLEN: I've got film that 

spells out what this was.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: You have what?

 MR. ALLEN: We have film that 

shows what this was. I've got film of them 

air chiseling dingots at Mallinckrodt.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Yes, but the 

product, I have a still photograph of that as 

well. And what they're doing there, if you 

look at it very closely, when they air 
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1 chiseled the slag, I think they called it --

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 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: -- when they air 

chiseled that off, there's still a very rough 

dingot underneath it.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes there is.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: That's what went 

over to GSI so they could set it up for 

cropping --

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, that would be 

similar --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: -- according to 

this document.

 MR. ALLEN: -- that would be 

similar to a derby and similar to a dingot 

being put on the lathe before it was machined. 

How would it not be?

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Wait a minute, let 

me ask, a derby and a dingot are two totally 

different processes, are they not?

 MR. ALLEN: No, they're exactly 

the same process. The difference is the size.
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1 MR. RAMSPOTT: They're the same 

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item.

 MR. ALLEN: They're made by 

heating magnesium and uranium fluoride to 

produce magnesium, or uranium metal, pooled in 

the bottom of the vessel.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: So you're saying a 

derby's made just like a dingot in a bomb.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: If I can, this is 

Bob, if I can break in to clarify, what my 

understanding, and Dave, you correct me, 

please, is they used to make, they started off 

making the derbies, which were smaller shapes, 

a few hundred pounds, and then they would take 

several derbies and then put them into an oven 

and melt them to make an ingot.

 And then someone got the idea, why 

go through a two step process? We can make 

the ingot directly from the uranium 

tetrafluoride just the way we make the derby, 

just make it bigger. So they skipped that one 
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1 remelting step. But as Dave said, it's 

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exactly the same process. It's just that 

instead of having a bunch of small shapes and 

you melt them together to make a big one, you 

start off and make, you just scale the process 

up and make the big one directly.

 That's why, dingot simply mean, 

you know, it's just a acronym, you know, for 

putting together a direct ingot, an ingot made 

by directly reducing the uranium tetrafluoride 

instead of by melting the derbies, which in 

turn were made be reducing uranium 

tetrafluoride. I hope that's, I'm just trying 

to be helpful.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Yes, no it's, Bob, 

I agree with you in my reading, understood it 

the way you said it, and they are two 

different processes. They melt the derby --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: They're the same

process, they're just making two different 

sizes. I mean, they're similar processes --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: That's right.
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1 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- similar 

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processes.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: But the derby's 

already been processed.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No, no, no, the 

derby is exactly the same as the dingot, just 

smaller.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Now the use of 

contamination on the surface as they use it 

here as the magnesium compound is considered 

contaminant to the uranium I guess, right?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: When they say 

the surface is contaminated, that's what they 

mean.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, they mean 

it's not uranium.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: It's not 

radioactively contaminated.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The magnesium is 

a contaminant that they're removing.
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1 MR. RAMSPOTT: Wasn't the cropping 

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material uranium, the cropped material?

 MR. ALLEN: The cropping material, 

after the mag fluoride slag is removed and you 

crop off the top because any impurities float 

to the top there and then they get rid of 

those. It can include some unreacted 

magnesium or fluoride from that process. It 

can also include some defective metals, not 

solid, you know, might have holes, et cetera. 

And in the process you end up with that 

Putzier effect, you know --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right.

 MR. ALLEN: -- and the big 

remelting ingots in the --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Isn't that the 

issue though, whether the cropping was done 

before or after?

 MR. ALLEN: No, not really, as 

Josie asked previously, the main thing as far 

as radioactivity in that top crop is the 

thorium-234 and protactinium-234m, doesn't 
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1 show up so much in a dingot because it's 

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directly from this process. But in the 

remelted ingots it will show up, but the top 

crop, as far as radioactivity, you get rid of 

that because of all the other impurities, and 

you also end up concentrating those things.

 In a dingot you don't concentrate 

those so much, but you still get other 

impurities and non-solid metal, I guess is the 

best way I can put it, you know, you get like 

you said, rough surface or possibly even small 

voids, et cetera, in the metal near the top, 

and that is cropped off.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: And if I can 

answer another point that John Ramspott 

raised, in talking about the activation of 

fission products, if you had a chance, John, 

look on Page 48 of the original report back 

in, you know, early 2008, I think it was April 

--

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Okay.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- and there is a 
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1 detailed analysis of the, that if you inhale a 

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milligram of the activated uranium, I would 

say the uranium immediately after betatron 

exposure like for several hours or repeated 

exposure, the difference between the dose, 

radiation dose, inhaled radiation dose of all 

of these fission activation products and the 

dose you would get just from natural uranium 

is like the difference in one to a million. 

In other words, if you took the dose from 

natural uranium and you wanted to add the 

other, the addition would be maybe one 

thousandth of one percent.

 Now NIOSH just did a quicky, quick 

solution to this, and they simply added one 

percent, in the original Appendix BB. They 

said well, whatever the dose from the uranium 

inhalation is, we'll add one percent to 

account for the activation product. But 

having done a very more detailed analysis, we 

came up with not one percent, one thousandth 

of one percent. So it's a total non-issue. It 
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1 was taken and considered, so I mean I'm just 

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taking a little, I know you mean well, John, 

and I'm taking a little umbrage saying that, 

you know, it was carelessly overlooked. 

It was very carefully considered.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: But those are 

products that are not in, I assume slugs and 

billets after they've gone through --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, but we're 

talking about a difference of one thousandth 

of one percent.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: But I guess I'm 

just looking at it, it's a third stage down 

the road versus what really went to GSI, those 

products, in whatever shape they're in or, you 

know, I don't, I have a feeling I'm not going 

to win this argument about the cropping, even 

though I've got documents that say that's how 

it was, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse 

there. But I guess the point is, what 

everybody's analyzing is not what was at GSI, 

that's the bottom line.
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, I think, 

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John, I think we're disagreeing with that. I 

think we're doing our best to analyze exactly 

what was at GSI. And this is why we've gone 

through, trying to get samples that are 

comparable in terms of handling of uranium 

where the products that produce internal dose 

or other organ dose are, in fact, similar to 

what you would have at GSI. That's really 

what this is all about. So --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: If I could make one 

more point --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: -- Bob, you said in 

your last comments, you know the hours that 

were spent. And really you don't. You know 

the hours that were spent on the purchase 

orders from 1958 on.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: That is correct.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Nobody knows the 

hours at GSI, that were spent pre-'58. Now we 

know, with some new FOIA material, through 
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1 '52. There is no information on the hours. 

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You can guess, you really can't back 

extrapolate because up until a week ago, 

nobody even knew there was work going on in 

'52 so, I mean that's proven now. And I think 

it brings out a very important point. Nobody 

really knows anything that happened at GSI 

from '52 to '58. And this last document that 

[identifying information redacted] just 

located proves that.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: By the way, not to 

be blowing our horn --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Oh no, I know 

you've mentioned that you brought it up once.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- well we said 

from the beginning that we think that there 

was work in '52.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: I pat you on the 

back, sir. I agreed with you before, and you 

were right. And that proves my point. Things 

were happening from '52 to '58, and they're 

talking about non-destructive testing and 
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1 uranium shields, and Bob, you were 100 percent 

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correct. And everybody said oh, well, sorry. 

I salute you, sir.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, I think we 

passed that information along to Labor and 

that's all we can do as a Work Group on that 

particular thing.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Well, I know it, 

but the whole point is, things were really 

happening over there and there's no documents 

that anybody has pre-'58. There are none.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: And I appreciate 

the chance to give you my feeling on this.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes thanks, 

John. Ted Katz indicated he's received some 

correspondence from Dr. McKeel. Ted --

 MR. KATZ: Sure.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- what is it, a 

letter you received?

 MR. KATZ: It's a letter, it's a 

letter from Dr. McKeel and he asked that I 
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1 read it into the record and then I distribute 

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it then to the Work Group Members and to the 

Board Members after reading it into the 

record. So that's what I'd like to do now. 

So it's from Dr. McKeel, dated November 28th, 

2012, to Members of the TBD-6000 Work Group 

and staff of the ABRWH.

 "I am today resigning by this 

letter, in protest, from active participation 

in further deliberations of the Advisory Board 

on Radiation and Worker Health TBD-6000 Work 

Group, concerning GSI Appendix BB and SEC00105. I have become persuaded that a 

majority of this Work Group, together with the 

DCAS and SC&A representatives, have exhibited 

a longstanding, persistent personal bias 

against adequately evaluating the many 

substantial scientific contributions made to 

the ABRWH since 2005 by myself, other GSI site 

experts, and the GSI petitioner team.

 In particular, GSI claimants have 

been denied statutory due process under 
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1 EEOICPA 2000 by not having Appendix BB to 

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Battelle TBD-6000 revised in a timely and 

factually accurate manner since it was 

released in June 2007. McKeel personal 

contributions have included A, in 2006, being 

the first person to alert the ABRWH, DCAS, and 

SC&A, to the existence of Landauer film badges 

for a limited number of GSI radiographers 1963 

to 1973.

 B, to clearly define all of the 

radiation source terms at GSI in conformance 

with DCAS directive OCAS-IG-003, via NRC FOIA, 

2010 through '12 of 1,116 pages of AEC 

byproduct license material for GSI.

 And C, most recently via DOE, ORO, 

FOIA, 2013-00013, I have shown that during 

November and December 1952, an active 

collaboration was ongoing among MCW AEC Oak 

Ridge Office, and GSI personnel in developing 

betatron radiography, uranium imaging 

techniques that were applied to thin slices of 

MCW ingots. A special uranium shield 
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1 fabricated at MCW, was used to contain 

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scattered radiation fields from the 24 MeV 

betatron X-ray beam. The stated purpose was 

to provide higher quality X-ray images of AEC, 

MCW, uranium products.

 Furthermore, DCAS, NIOSH, and SC&A 

and certain Board Members have chosen to 

ignore a large fraction of the above and other 

numerous factual contributions as oral and 

written comments and papers by the 

petitioner/site expert, and GSI 

worker/claimant teams as reflected in the 

transcripts of TBD-6000 and ABRWH Full Board 

Meetings. Various HHS, FOIA, and DCAS 

personnel have made accessing crucial GSI SRDB 

documents especially difficult.

 For example, obtaining a single 

copy of Harris Kingsley 1958 from the CDC 

ATSDR FOIA office took over two and a half 

months. Many of my email requests to the TBD6000 Work Group Chairman go unanswered by him 

except through a surrogate, the DFO, or at 
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1 NIOSH, SEC Counselor, neither of whom are the 

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Board or Work Group Secretary per se.

 Finally, I'm persuaded that for 

GSI at least, the SC&A evaluation team has 

switched from strongly recommending a GSI SEC 

for the first ten years in October 2010, to 

its present position in supporting a denial of 

the SEC-00105.

 SC&A is no longer acting as an 

effective oversight agent for the Board, at 

least in the case of GSI. Rather it and its 

Work Group Chair have become stalwart, 

scientific allies and collaborators with DCAS. 

The SC&A review paper released to me on 

November 26, 2012 at 12:30 p.m. is a prime 

example of the close collaboration between 

SC&A and DCAS. Whereas in their August 2012 

paper, SC&A found that these uranium slug 

facility and TBD-6000 failed to pass the five 

Board surrogate data criteria, now SC&A finds 

that David Allen's slug facilities meet all 

Board surrogate data criteria. Four Allen 
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1 August-November 2005 White Paper, AWE sites 

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have only 14 claims and 13 dose 

reconstructions between them and no one has 

been compensated. Those AWE sites and the 

Weldon Spring DOE site are judged by SC&A and 

DCAS as to be stringently justified as being 

comparable to GSI. This is scientifically 

ludicrous and offensive. It is definitely 

scientifically indefensible in my opinion.

 Also, the authors of the November 

25th, 2012 SC&A review of Allen 11-6-2012, 

continue to insist that uranium ingots and 

dingots sent to MCW from MCW to GSI had only a 

few uranium oxide flakes on their pure uranium 

surfaces that were easily rubbed off. 

The petitioners and site experts have proven 

beyond a reasonable doubt using technical 

publications and photographs, that MCW, 

Destrehan Street, and Weldon Spring site 

uranium dingots of the type sent to GSI from 

NDT radiography were rough surface and taller 

than they were wide before cropping.
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1 SC&A ignores the proven fact that 

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the adherent magnesium fluoride slag or crust 

of MCW uranium ingots and dingots sent to GSI 

1953 to 1966 contained radioactive daughter 

products of uranium and betatron activation 

products. The DCAS cold -- term "cold 

uranium" is inappropriate.

 SC&A and DCAS continue to ignore 

the well list substantiated fact that GSI MDT 

betatron radiography defined the interface 

between pure MCW uranium and the tightly 

adherent crust, detecting structural flaws 

competed with this prime MCW ACE directive. 

Objective science has been abandoned to the 

detriment of GSI claimants. Please refer to 

NIOSH docket 140 for more documentation of 

statements in this letter. Thank you for this 

added opportunity to set this record 

straight." And then he gives the reference 

and he signs it Daniel McKeel, Daniel W. 

McKeel. That's it.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, that's 
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1 been read into the record.

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 MR. KATZ: I'll send it to you so 

that you can --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And are you 

going to distribute this to --

 MR. KATZ: So I'll distribute this 

now to everybody involved, staff, Board 

Members.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you. 

You know, I think we need a comfort break at 

this point. We went a little longer than I 

expected. So let's take a 15 minute break and 

we'll resume at five to 11:00. It's about 20 

of right now. Thanks.

 (Whereupon, the meeting in the 

above-mentioned matter went off the record at 

10:41 a.m. and went back on the record at 

10:57 a.m.)

 MR. KATZ: Okay, we are 

reconvening, this is the TBD-6000 Work Group. 

And let me just check on the line and see if 
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1 Dr. Poston has joined us.

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 MEMBER POSTON: I'm here.

 MR. KATZ: Well, John, at what 

point did you join us?

 MEMBER POSTON: I joined you when 

Bob started talking and I didn't want to 

interrupt, so I waited until that was over.

 MR. KATZ: When Bob started 

talking this morning first thing, you're 

talking about?

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, in the future, 

John, please do register your attendance 

because it's important procedurally.

 MEMBER POSTON: Well I did let you 

know I was there, but I waited until Bob 

finished.

 MR. KATZ: Oh, we never heard you, 

John.

 MEMBER POSTON: Oh, I thought Paul 

acknowledged me.

 MR. KATZ: No.
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No.

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 DR. NETON: Maybe that was John 

Ramspott you --

 MR. KATZ: No, John Ramspott we 

heard from, but we never heard from you.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No, I didn't 

think I acknowledged you, but I appreciate you 

thinking that I did. I don't want to overlook 

you, thanks though, appreciate you being 

there.

 MEMBER POSTON: I apologize, I was 

probably on mute and didn't realize it like so 

many people.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, maybe you

were on mute. In any event --

 MR. KATZ: Thanks, I'm glad to 

know that you've been attending.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, now just

before the break, Ted Katz read a letter from 

Dr. McKeel, and I think it will be appropriate 

if we prepare a response. I'll work on that 

with Ted on drafting that and we'll get a copy 
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1 out to the Work Group to respond to Dr. 

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McKeel's comments and concerns.

 I do want to see, although Dr. 

McKeel isn't on the line to discuss his papers 

but, Board Members, you have had an 

opportunity to look at those. I'm wondering 

if there are some questions that any of you 

have that you want to raise and at least on 

the record. Josie, did you have a question on 

--

 MEMBER BEACH: No, I just, I had a 

couple of things that I wrote down but John 

pretty much covered most of them. And then I 

think most of my, is not so much with the 

surrogate data, although I find that having 

data from several different sites for GSI is a 

little unsettling for me, but I'm not, the 

thing I had was just the rest of the issues 

that we have other than the data which John, 

or not John, Bob alluded to that we still had 

to cover today.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Oh, okay.
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1 MEMBER BEACH: So I'll leave it at 

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that because I know there's still more to be 

discussed.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, I think 

you all have the other concerns that Dr. 

McKeel raised and I've had a chance to look at 

those and to consider those as you move 

forward. So he's not here to discuss them 

further so we'll leave it at that.

 We need to have a formal 

recommendation on this portion, that is the 

use of the surrogate data for internal dose 

for the residual period and the operational 

period. And I can ask for Work Group, if you 

have a formal recommendation you wish to make 

to the Board on the use of this methodology 

that's been described by Dave and will be 

slightly modified using the changes that were 

described to characterize the internal dose 

from the handling of the uranium during the 

operational period and to use that information 

together with the TBD-70 modeling for the 
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1 residual period in the manner described. And 

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we can take those separately if you wish, but 

a motion would be in order.

 MEMBER MUNN: I'll be glad to try 

to address that, Paul, if you'd like. This 

has not been an easy deliberation. We have, I 

think, addressed each of the issues that has 

been brought up in turn. And I think we owe 

some thanks to the petitioners for having 

brought some of these issues to our attention 

so that they did receive a great deal of focus 

and a great deal of discussion. A great deal 

of thought has gone into it.

 Contrary to some of the statements 

that have been made, our experts in these 

matters have made every apparent effort that 

was available to them to try to adhere as 

closely to good scientific principles as they 

could, and have taken into account the 

requirements that we, as a Board, have 

established for viewing much of this material.

 We have agreement on what is 
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available to us that's applicable to our 

issues. It seems only reasonable that we 

accept the basic recommendations and 

agreements that have come to us from the 

Agency and from our contractor.

 I would like to move that we 

accept the recommendations that have been made 

with respect to the use of surrogate data 

that's available to us, and move forward with 

our assessment of the entire SEC petition from 

the GSI organizations.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, I would 

like to actually confine the motion originally 

to this part: the use of the surrogate data 

for the internal dose portion and then we can 

vote separately on the issues of, we sort of 

have, but I want to firm it up, but --

 MEMBER MUNN: Please, please --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- could we have 

agreement that we should, your motion, if I 

can interpret it, would be to accept the use 
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as, with the modifications that they will 

incorporate from SC&A for a determination of 

internal dose during the operational and the 

residual periods.

 MEMBER MUNN: That's most 

acceptable. Please delete my last phrase from 

my statement.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Now, does anyone 

wish to break that into two parts? I realize 

it encompasses both periods. I need a second, 

also.

 MEMBER BEACH: I think it should 

be broken into two parts.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 MEMBER BEACH: But I think the 

inconsistencies --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Now what --

 MEMBER BEACH: -- so I don't want 

to get into it, no.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I'm only talking 

about the two --
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1 MEMBER BEACH: Right, you're 

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talking --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- only about 

the internal dose compound.

 MEMBER BEACH: Okay, from '53 and 

you're saying all the way to '66, or '53 to --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Operational plus 

residual period, just for this component.

 MEMBER BEACH: I would say leave 

it as one.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Are you 

seconding?

 MEMBER BEACH: No.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No. Okay --

 MR. KATZ: John Poston's on the 

line.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: John?

 MEMBER POSTON: Second the motion 

so we can at least discuss it.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 MEMBER BEACH: There you go.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So the motion is 
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1 to accept the recommendation on the use of the 

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surrogate data for internal dose calculations 

for the operational and residual periods. 

Okay, all in favor, aye?

 MEMBER MUNN: Are we going to have 

discussion?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Oh, discussion, 

yes. I'm sorry.

 MEMBER MUNN: Since John said he 

was seconding for purposes of discussion.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: After we take 

action on this, we'll go back and determine 

the overall recommendation for everything. 

Okay, this is just for the internal dose 

components.

 MEMBER BEACH: So where does, I 

guess I want to make sure I'm clear, we're 

talking surrogate data that we've discussed 

this morning.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 MEMBER BEACH: Where does the 

other material that's on the floor, loose 
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does that fit in? Because that's an internal 

component.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 MEMBER BEACH: Where does that fit 

into this particular motion?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Jim can describe 

how, or Dave can describe how that's done with 

the --

 MR. ALLEN: Well, if I'm 

interpreting all this right, I'm looking at 

this as if we had air samples at GSI, we 

don't, you know, but if we had air samples 

there at GSI when they were moving uranium 

around, we would still have to develop 

parameters and model what the exposure's going 

to be based on those air samples.

 MEMBER BEACH: Understand.

 MR. ALLEN: That stuff is still on 

the table, how we would use this air sample 

value as far as to estimate the dose and 

that's a tractable, as Jim would say, a 
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1 tractable TBD issue. I think this motion, and 

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you guys can direct me if I'm wrong, I'm 

thinking this motion is we don't have air 

samples, do we have the equivalent in 

surrogate data, as equivalent to an air sample 

at GSI?

 DR. NETON: I think that's the 

first part. I think what Josie is asking 

though is beyond that. Assuming that we agree 

that we have an air sample that's 

representative of moving uranium around, then 

how do you model what would be on the floor 

and what the workers' exposure would be from 

the surface contamination?

 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, because you've 

got two separate issues.

 DR. NETON: Right. And that is 

dealt with in TIB-70. TIB-70 is a

prescriptive approach so when you have air 

sample data during an operational period, how 

much of that material deposits on the ground 

over time, and then what fraction of that 
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 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

 DR. NETON: The only thing in 

question at this point is, since it's not a 

continuous operation, we wouldn't say that 

that air concentration existed eight hours a 

day, you know, five days a week, 2,000 hours a 

year. We would have to come up with some 

amount of time, some duration of time that 

that material was depositing on the ground. 

And that would have to be decided. And that's 

what I would consider a Site Profile issue, 

not can it be bounded at all? It can be 

bounded by saying it happened the full 2,000 

hours.

 MR. ALLEN: All the time, yes.

 DR. NETON: But the question is, 

what incremental, you know, what decrement of 

it would it be, 1,000 hours, 1,500, that's 

really what's up in the air. So it's a 

solvable problem using a standard approach 

that we used in TIB-70 that's an approved 
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1 document for doing these type of estimates.

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 MR. ALLEN: Based on air sample.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Well, I'd just 

like to, I hope it's not out of place, I'd 

like to comment, the surrogate data really 

does not apply to the residual period. The 

surrogate data tells you what was, I mean the 

purpose of surrogate data is to come up with 

an estimate of the uranium activity air 

concentrations during the minutes and hours 

that uranium was handled. And it does not 

directly bear on the residual period when 

there was no uranium handling. I mean, that's 

a separate component, I mean --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, but as Jim 

was just explaining, that is used to determine 

the starting point.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: It will be, it 

will be used.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right so it --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: The data itself, 

surrogate data itself, does not --
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well insofar as 

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it establishes the air activity for the --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay, right, 

right, okay, as a source, all right, fine.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- for the 

operational period, then it establishes the 

starting point for the TIB-70 value. So in a 

sense, you're saying, because remember, this 

all started with the surrogate for that 

starting point so --

 MR. ALLEN: Okay, like Bob says, 

it's not directly used; it is indirectly used.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: It is indirectly 

used, okay. Any other questions? Or are we -

- 

 MEMBER BEACH: So does that mean 

you should maybe change the way that motion is 

made so that it's not confusing? Because 

right now the two periods are lumped together 

under that.

 MR. KATZ: But that's because it 

is indirectly involved in that --
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well --

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 MEMBER BEACH: But it is a 

starting point but it doesn't -- I don't know.

MS. LIN: Josie, do you feel like 

that remaining question, it's not a TBD 

question? Is that what you're getting at?

 MEMBER BEACH: I'm not sure.

 MS. LIN: Okay.

 MEMBER BEACH: We haven't finished 

that discussion so --

 MS. LIN: Okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well --

 MS. LIN: Do you think that the 

surrogate data could be used as a starting 

point for the residual contamination? Because 

I'm trying to get a sense of why we're 

breaking it up.

 MEMBER BEACH: Oh, I just thought 

it was for clarity's sake. If it's clear to 

everybody then it doesn't need to be. But

see, I still have some questions on the 

surrogate data which --
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1 DR. NETON: Well, maybe we need to 

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talk about that. Because if you agree that we 

have, if it's agreed that surrogate data, the 

95th percentile, the distribution that we're 

going to generate is representative to be used 

for inhalation exposures at GSI, then it sort 

of implies we have knowledge of what the air 

concentrations were in the plant. And once we 

have that, the rest sort of falls in place. 

I mean, that's what we do all the time in 

residual contamination. It's a standard, 

there's nothing unique about that other than 

the non-continuous nature of the operation. 

That's the only difference in my opinion.

 MR. ALLEN: Maybe I can try to 

just say this motion should be more or less 

agreement that the data we have collected can 

be used to estimate intakes at GSI, not 

necessarily agreement with what the intake 

estimate is at this point, just that it can be 

used, is kind of where we're at I think. 

Isn't that your question, is how we use that 
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1 data, not --

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 MEMBER BEACH: Well, my question 

goes back just to the fundamental of the 

surrogate data and how it fits the criteria. 

Because I don't agree 100 percent that it does 

fit the criteria.

 MR. ALLEN: Oh, okay.

 MEMBER BEACH: But that's just my 

opinion.

 MR. KATZ: Well you should discuss 

that then.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, let's

discuss that then as part of yours, because 

the motion is dependent on the acceptance that 

this is valid use of surrogate data so I mean, 

I think you should go ahead and raise the 

question here.

 MEMBER BEACH: Well I guess my 

question is, what I've gotten here is the 

differences between the operations at GSI, one 

of them on Bob's report on Page 11, the last, 

does the surrogate data reflect the type of 
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1 operations and work practices used at the 

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facilities?

 I have concerns, the early time 

period, and I know this falls into, you know, 

the work practices between internal and 

external so I'm trying not to get those two 

confused, but the surrogate data is supposed 

to be a good example of what happened at GSI. 

And I have questions that it's not a good 

example between the three or four different 

sites or seven surrogate data to what actually 

happened at GSI. And part of that was because 

of the point that John brought up with the 

cropping and the scraping and the different 

phases of that operation, which we had that 

discussion here today and I know you're in 

disagreement with it.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, well 

they're not doing the cropping at GSI.

 DR. NETON: They didn't do any 

cropping.

 MEMBER BEACH: Right, but when I 
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1 was reading all these reports, that was one of 

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the questions I had in looking at the 

surrogate data.

 DR. NETON: The premise of our 

analysis is that the only thing that happened 

at GSI was they moved the material around the 

plant --

MEMBER BEACH: Right.

 DR. NETON: -- to be X-rayed.

 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

 DR. NETON: There was no abrasion, 

no cutting, no grinding operations. Nothing 

of that sort, that we know of, occurred at 

GSI.

 MEMBER BEACH: Right. But how 

that product came in and what it looked like 

as it came in.

 MR. ALLEN: Well, I mean, part of 

what that White Paper I put together, because 

in all honesty, I didn't know how much of a 

difference there would be. But part of that, 

and one of the reasons I included those 
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1 derbies originally, that's a rough surface 

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right out of the reduction area. The slugs, 

obviously, have been through quite a bit of 

processing, you know, to get to the point of 

being a slug. The billets are intermediate 

process between ingot and rods.

 I think the different forms 

represent pretty much every phase of the 

process, you know, at one point or another. 

And the air sample values were fairly 

consistent, you know, through each part of it 

to where the result of that Paper essentially 

said that it doesn't matter what step of the 

process it's in or what size or shape it's in, 

you know, the air samples seem to be 

consistent as far as airborne you get from 

handling this --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: For handling.

 MR. ALLEN: For handling, was all 

this was analyzed.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And the rough 

surface typically represents, probably a lower 
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1 amount of uranium on the surface. If it's 

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mainly magnesium compounds --

 MR. ALLEN: I think it's 

reasonable to believe that's possible. I 

don't know if it's fact or not.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: If we know that, 

okay.

 MR. ALLEN: I just know that we 

did have some air samples from derbies, and 

you can actually see a derby. One of those 

pictures that John sent or --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

MR. ALLEN: -- I mean, there's a 

bit ingot with this littler things that's 

pointing to; that's a derby.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes.

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, but you've just 

hit on a major point I think, Paul. It seems 

obvious from what we've heard and what we've 

read here today that in the claimant 

population there's a very clear implication 

that exclusions on the outside of any of the 
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1 material that we have may be more pernicious 

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in terms of exposure than the raw material 

itself.

 And that is, I think we've 

addressed that in several ways but I'm not 

sure that we've addressed it directly in being 

able to say that the crust on these things is 

not more dangerous than the metal itself. 

That's, it is, any differences in exposure 

that would occur from handling uncleaned 

material are not significant in terms of 

identifying increases in dose. And that is, I 

think, a misunderstanding that seems to be 

quite prevalent in what we're hearing from 

outside this table.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: In my interviews

with the worker back in --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Speak loud

enough so that --

MR. KATZ: Yes, you're hard to 

hear.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Pardon?
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speak up.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay, spit out the 

candy. In my interviews with the workers in 

2007, they initially, the only thing we really 

have clear evidence of is in the Mallinckrodt 

Site Profile, when they refer to betatron 

slices, so these were, they would take the 

ingot or dingot, it had been already cast, 

ready to go, and they wanted to find out, are 

there some inclusions of slag inside the body, 

not on the surface, inside the body of the 

metal.

 So if they then send it to be 

rolled and made into rods, these would be 

imperfections which may cause the thing to, I 

don't know, break or to be, you know? So it 

was, essentially it was destructive testing 

because they would take the ingot, saw a slice 

out of it, and by my calculation they couldn't 

be more than four inches because the betatron 

couldn't penetrate more than that, it could 
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1 have been thinner.

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 And I asked the workers, does that 

sound like what you were doing, a slice maybe 

18 inches in diameter like that? And they 

said yes, yes, that sounds familiar, that 

sounds like what we were doing.

 Only in one case, one worker whom 

I interviewed said he worked on the day shift. 

And when he came in, the night shift people 

were telling him, oh yes, they were shooting 

the ends of the ingot. There was just one 

case that one time. And I even drew a diagram 

of my understanding of what he was saying and 

sent it to him and asked him to confirm is 

this what you meant? And I showed, you know, 

shots at each corner.

 And these would be not the surface 

kind, the surface kind is those you see, you 

see, you could see, hey, this is magnesium 

fluoride, this isn't uranium, you took it off 

but it has a totally different physical 

property and you keep chipping it off with a 
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1 hammer until it's all gone. You don't take an 

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X-ray for that.

 What you take an X-ray for is, it 

looks like metal but you can't see inside. 

And inside is porous and there is air in there 

like a froth, mostly slag, it's mixed in into 

the metal. And that gets cut off with a 

bandsaw. And they don't want to, you know, 

obviously you want to keep as much of the 

ingot as possible so you, you know, that makes 

perfectly good sense that they would take a 

radiograph. Now the radiograph cannot 

penetrate through the whole ingot, it's too 

thick. But if they get the corner it would 

show up and that, you know, as a gray area, 

here's black and here is white actually on the 

radiograph and then they go through that. And 

so they would see that, that's very true.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, but all 

that, all of that was done --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: But the material

inside would behave pretty much like uranium. 
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1 And if there were any of these short-lived 

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daughter products, you know, later I said I 

did the analysis of you get something like two 

to the minus four sieverts per milligram from 

inhaling natural uranium and an additional ten 

to the minus nine in the activation product. 

So it doesn't affect the, biologically it has 

no effect and physically it's no different. 

It would be, you know, it would be no greater 

or lesser dust from that than the other. So 

it's a, you know, do we have, you know, that's 

why it's called surrogate data. It's not 

perfect, identical.

 MEMBER BEACH: Right, right.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I mean, the only 

identical is to go back in time and, you know, 

and then do it there.

 DR. NETON: The thing that strikes 

me about this analysis is that you have to 

look at the magnitude of the exposure that 

we're talking about. I mean they've looked at 

37 air samples of various movements of 
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1 dingots, slugs, derbies, dingots --

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 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

 DR. NETON: -- and we took the 

95th percentile of all those air samples. The 

highest amount that got into the air is 

something about less than a tenth of a 

milligram per cubic meter of uranium, from 

doing those operations. That's the 95th 

percentile. I think the mean value is like 21 

dpm per second.

 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

 DR. NETON: You're talking about a 

very low operation. So we're comfortable 

saying, if we pick the 95th percentile, it's 

less than a tenth of a milligram, we bounded 

those workers' exposures from whether you move 

the slug, a derby, a billet, a dingot, under 

any form because we looked at all of the 

different air samples.

 MEMBER BEACH: Right, I understand 

that.

 DR. NETON: That -- kind of what 
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1 strikes me is it's, and we talked about it a 

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little bit at the Board Meeting last time, 

there is uncertainty there. But when you have 

such a low level of exposure, you almost have 

to allow for more uncertainty because it's so 

low, you know, it's different to have a factor 

or two difference from such a small exposure 

like this than if you had big exposures.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But the 

surrogate that we're looking for is, processwise, is not the process of radiographing; 

it's the process of handling. And so you're 

looking for sites, not that are, you're 

eliminating sites where they're doing other 

things, and trying to just get the handling 

part because that's the part GSI did.

 So in my mind, the surrogate is 

finding the same process, in this case the 

process that we're talking about is the 

handling of the uranium. It's not 

radiographing; those doses are handled 

separately by the external exposure and the 
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1 other thing. So this is just the handling 

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part. That's how I see the surrogate part.

 MEMBER BEACH: Okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, go ahead,

you had another question.

 MEMBER BEACH: No, I'm good. 

Thank you.

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Poston, do you want 

to check with Dr. Poston?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: John Poston, do 

you have a comment or question?

 MEMBER POSTON: No, I don't have 

any other questions. I think the explanations 

helped me a little bit.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right now, the

motion is to accept the recommendation on the 

use of surrogate data for the operational and 

residual periods, and that, for internal dose. 

And the implication for the residual period is 

that it would be used in conjunction with the 

TIB-70 procedure to determine the dose during 

residual period. But we can break it into two 
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1 if you --

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 MEMBER BEACH: No, I don't think 

it's necessary.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, okay, then 

all in favor of this motion say aye.

 MEMBER MUNN: Aye. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Aye.

 MEMBER BEACH: Aye.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Four ayes.

 MR. KATZ: Four ayes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Motion carries. 

Now I want to remind you that we previously 

moved the other issues that were in the SEC 

petition to the TBD Appendix BB, TBD-6000 

Appendix BB, meaning that we agreed that they 

were tractable issues and therefore could be 

handled under the Site Profile category.

 However, I want to be able to go 

to the Board now and be very specific on the 

recommendation to the Board. And I think in 

fairness to everyone on the Work Group, 

certainly willing to divide the motion into 
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1 three parts.

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 One would be what I would call the 

early years which right now is '53 to, I 

believe, '62, and then '62 to '66, I could get 

the exact months, but you understand what I'm 

talking about, those two operational periods 

and then the residual period. And I'd like to 

be able to tell the Board where we are as a 

Work Group on recommending the SEC petition 

relative to those three components.

 MEMBER BEACH: You're talking 

external.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I'm talking 

about everything now.

 MEMBER BEACH: The whole thing, 

okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The whole thing. 

We have done the pieces but I know that, 

Josie, I know you had concerns about the first 

early period and I think in fairness we need 

to be able to tell the Board that or, you 

know, I don't want to prejudge how you vote 
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1 but I think unless somebody wants to do the 

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whole thing in one motion I think it's quite -

- 

 MR. KATZ: Let's do it in three.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, so first 

of all, the first motion would be, right now 

as it stands now, the motion would be to 

accept the NIOSH recommendation that doses can 

be reconstructed for the early period which 

is, right now, January 1st '53 is the 

beginning of the operational period. And I 

would, I guess I would put this, I don't have 

an official date here, but I'm going to say 

March 7th, '62, which is when they applied for 

the AEC license. Now that may be a good break 

point.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: '62, '62?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: '62.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right. They 

actually, they discontinued --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well the license 

was granted April 18th '62, so we could go to 
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1 that period.

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: That's when they 

discontinued using radium.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So let's say 

April 18, '62. Now these dates are sort of 

arbitrary for us because that's not part of 

the petition. But I think in the minds of 

some, perhaps beyond this Work Group, that 

that might be a break point. So let me ask 

first for a motion to, on that period, the 

January 1st, '53 through April 18th, '62.

 MEMBER BEACH: I would make a 

motion that probably wouldn't pass, to approve 

an SEC for 1953 to 1962 --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 MEMBER BEACH: -- based on the 

lack of data and several other reasons.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, I need a 

second for that motion.

 MEMBER MUNN: So, let me just 

change the motion.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, Josie 
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1 didn't get seconded, so that's all right.

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 MEMBER BEACH: I didn't expect to, 

but I thought I would just throw it out there.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, no, that's 

fine, that's fine.

 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, a motion

to accept the NIOSH recommendation for that 

period.

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, so moved.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Wanda?

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, please.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: John Poston, are 

you wanting to second?

 MEMBER POSTON: I keep getting on 

the wrong side of the mute button.

 MR. KATZ: Yes, we can hear you.

 MEMBER POSTON: Can you hear me?

 MR. KATZ: Yes, we hear you now, 

John.

 MEMBER POSTON: Okay.

 MR. KATZ: But we didn't hear your 
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1 response.

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 MEMBER POSTON: Okay, well I'm 

thinking.

 MR. KATZ: Oh, okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The motion would 

be to accept the NIOSH proposal that dose can 

be reconstructed for the period January 1st, 

'52 through April 18th, '62.

 MR. KATZ: '53.

 MEMBER BEACH: '53.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: '53, I'm sorry.

 MEMBER POSTON: And when you say 

dose, you're talking about everything.

 MR. KATZ: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Everything.

 MEMBER POSTON: Okay well, we've 

already voted on internal dose, right?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes we did and 

we actually, previously moved the other items 

to Appendix BB which implied that we had 

accepted --

MEMBER BEACH: But if you go back 
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1 to the first issue that we closed and moved 

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it, actually we just closed it without moving 

it. We basically closed it and the last 

action from SC&A was due to scarce data and no 

firsthand accounts for 1953 to 1956 period. 

It is not clear that bounding exposures can be 

assigned during this period. And that's how 

we left it.

 And the next meeting we basically 

said that no further action was going to 

change it, so we went ahead and closed it. 

But we didn't resolve it in everyone's mind, 

in my opinion.

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes, I'm pretty 

confused. That's why I was asking questions.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: On which one, 

Josie?

 MEMBER BEACH: That was the very 

first one under 105. It has to do with 

external.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: The final SC&A 

position, after studying the records the, you
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1 know, the AEC records, was that we came to 

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the, SC&A came to the conclusion that there 

was no reason to believe that the operations, 

in terms of external exposure from 1953 to 

1956 were any different than from '56 to '62. 

From '56 to '62 we had some data, some records 

and firsthand testimony as to the methodology, 

the procedures, the safety factors used, using 

radium for radiography.

 And according to the records, the 

same people, the same supervisor was in charge 

for that whole ten-year period and the same 

safety procedures were used. And we have 

statement, even though there's no written 

records, we have I would say testimony from 

the GSI management to the AEC inspectors that 

we have never exceeded the safety limit, the 

exposure limits.

 And so SC&A's position was that if 

they go with a much higher annual exposure 

than was previously assumed by NIOSH, this 

would constitute a reasonable upper bound to 
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1 the exposures and that there was several, you 

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know, I won't go through it all now but there 

were like three different methods based on the 

regulations, based on an actual hypothetical, 

you know, modeling of the time and motion 

study based on the testimony of this one 

worker and also based on his own film badge 

records. You put them all together, we feel 

yes, that this can be, that if you can do it 

from '56 to '62, going back to '52 or '53, or 

now it may very well be '52, there really 

should be no substantial difference.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well one thing

here I'm noticing now in the matrix, Bob, 

because this is a little misleading I think --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: It may not have 

been updated --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- what you show 

for the action on 3/28, which was when we 

closed it, you didn't include here what SC&A's 

final position on that --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I'm sorry. That 
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1 was an oversight.

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- meeting, 

because Josie's exactly right. In the 

previous meeting, on 3/22, your comment, not 

the meeting but your comment going into the 

3/28 meeting was that it wasn't clear that 

bounding could be assigned in the early 

period.

 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That was the 

SC&A position when he was at the meeting. At 

the meeting, you guys actually agreed that it 

could but you don't show that. I mean, you 

have to go back --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Sorry, I 

apologize, that's an oversight.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But that was the 

reason we closed it, was because you both 

agreed --

DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- you had a 

slightly different number because it had to 
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1 do, well, I'd have to go back to the minutes 

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but --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- some of the 

assumptions on those distances were a little 

different.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, I failed --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But you both 

agreed it could be bounded and that was the

reason for closing the issue.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But this 

doesn't, it's not reflected in the words here.

 MEMBER BEACH: Right, and I don't 

know if I fully agree with closing it, but 

that was the --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That's right, 

that's what the vote was.

 MR. KATZ: So Bob, if you, just 

before I forget, if you would just correct the 

matrix that way --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Will do.
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1 MR. KATZ: -- as soon as you can -

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Will do.

 MR. KATZ: -- that will say, 

thanks.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Well, what I'll do 

is I'll just update, as long as I'm at it --

MR. KATZ: Yes, no absolutely.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- is update it 

right through today.

 MR. KATZ: Right, right, we should 

do that in a timely way since we have a Board

Meeting --

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, we're not 

actually taking action on it today, I'm just 

reminding you that --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, I mean, I'll 

do it in time for the Board Meeting --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- or I'll try to 

get it sooner.

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And right, the
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1 closing wasn't unanimous.

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 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I'll get it out by 

the end of the week.

 MR. ALLEN: Well, if I remember 

right, that closing was based on the idea that 

there was no more information to be gathered 

or analyzed --

 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, we had what 

we had and you work with it based on --

 MEMBER BEACH: It said the Members 

of the Work Group as well as NIOSH and SC&A 

staff members present at the meeting agreed 

that further research or fact-finding would 

not produce any useful information so.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, but you had 

what you had and you would bound it based on 

that.

 MEMBER BEACH: Exactly, exactly.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, okay. 

Okay, John, did you have additional questions?
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1 We're still trying to generate a motion here 

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on the early period.

 MEMBER POSTON: Again, I was 

trying to understand, I was quite confused as 

to what has happened before and what we've 

done before. I think this has helped me a 

lot. I think we need to discuss Wanda's 

motion, so I'll second.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 MEMBER POSTON: I'm still trying

to understand exactly what that motion means 

in terms of --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The motion would 

be, basically the motion says that we agree 

that NIOSH can bound dose for that early 

period.

 MEMBER POSTON: Okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: This is all 

dose: external, internal.

 MR. KATZ: Right.

 MEMBER POSTON: And that was what 

NIOSH said they could do.
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1 MR. KATZ: Right.

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 MEMBER POSTON: Yes, okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And SC&A, I 

believe --

MR. KATZ: Concurs.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- is in 

agreement with that.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Not with the 

values but with the statement it can be 

bounded, yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. They 

would still have to go back on Appendix BB and 

agree on the final numbers.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

 MR. KATZ: Right, which is why it 

was referred to as a TBD --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 MR. KATZ: -- issue.

 MEMBER POSTON: Okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Any further 

discussion?

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Dr. Ziemer?
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes.

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 MR. RAMSPOTT: Will you allow the 

public to make a comment?

 MR. KATZ: Not at this point. 

This is a Board process at this point, John.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Okay.

 MR. KATZ: Thank you.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Other comments? 

Are you ready to vote?

 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: John, you ready 

to vote?

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, all in 

favor, say aye.

 MEMBER MUNN: Aye.

 MEMBER POSTON: Aye.

 MEMBER BEACH: Nay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And nays, okay, 

we've got one nay and three ayes on the early 

period. Okay, next I'm looking for a motion 

on the rest of the operational period, which 
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1 would then be from April 18 to the end of the 

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operational period which is June 30th, '66.

 MS. LIN: Dr. Ziemer, do you mean 

April 19?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, April 19, 

the next day, yes, to June 1966, June 30th. 

Motion?

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Wanda, you're 

moving --

MEMBER MUNN: I'm moving that we 

identify as we have in our previous motion, 

that we accept their ability to --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Accept NIOSH's 

proposal.

 MEMBER MUNN: -- accept NIOSH 

recommendation --

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 MEMBER MUNN: -- for that period.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Second?

 MEMBER POSTON: I'll second it.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Discussion?
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1 MEMBER BEACH: Well I want to 

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direct you back to the Appendix, and this is 

for clarification mostly because I know the 

Board Members are going to be looking at this.

If you look at the last Board action on 

3/28/12 --

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: For which --

 MEMBER BEACH: -- on the Petition 

105.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes.

 MEMBER BEACH: This one shows --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Which item is 

it?

 MEMBER BEACH: It's Item Number 2, 

oh I'm sorry, Item Number 2, which talks about 

the year in question, which they're a little 

bit skewed but, and I'm only bringing this up 

for clarification because it says it's 

possible to reconstruct dose from the period 

of 1964 to 1966 following the suggestion by 

Dave Allen and James Neton of NIOSH with 

Robert Anigstein's concurrence. It doesn't 
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1 really give you a whole lot of information so 

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I guess I want to refresh why we decided we 

could, just briefly, not huge.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: We're talking 

about '64?

 MR. KATZ: Yes.

 MEMBER BEACH: Now see, this says 

'64 to '66. We've got some years that --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: You know, I think 

there was a lot of jumping, let's see, in 

November, middle of November '63, they started 

using Landauer film badges. So we have a --

 MEMBER BEACH: So we have 89 

Landauer badges.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- we have the 

actual film badge reports starting from 

January 1st, '64. However, the film badge 

reports are cumulative so they say there were 

six prior weeks before that where we did 

happen to retrieve the record. But they show 

no significant, you know, everybody got 

minimal dose meaning below the readable level.
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1 So there were no, there was nothing in those 

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first six weeks, that part meaning the last 

six weeks of 1963. So that's the basis for 

that.

 MEMBER BEACH: Okay.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Then we have the 

early, then I'm going into a much more finegrained. Then there is the period from, say 

April 18th or Paul said, '62 until then, until 

'63, and the only difference was that there 

was a different film badge supplier, that the 

Nuclear Consulting Corporation was their 

radiation safety consultant and they came in, 

they did the actual surveys using survey 

meters to see what the codes were, and also 

supplied the film badges.

 Those film badges we've not been 

able to obtain because there was, I actually 

interviewed the president of that company and 

he, you know, 50 years later could not 

recollect who he bought the film badges from. 

So we don't have the real, but he simply made 
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1 the statement that they seemed to have their 

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act together. He does not remember any 

unusual occurrences, any excessive exposures. 

And we do have, for the same period, film 

badge records of one worker, who was a 

radiographer. So, you know --

 MEMBER BEACH: From '62 to '63, 

that time period?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, yes, right. 

We actually have his record and we have the 

statement of his previous exposure, which 

Nuclear Consulting Corporation put together 

based on, they simply say records. So they 

presumably looked at some earlier records and 

they assessed his exposure from the time, 

beginning of his employment which was about in 

'56.

 So we have, from one person we 

have that, so we have some, you know, evidence 

and information. And again, modeling of the 

actual exposure, say, based on this man's 

testimony. He sat in this little room, he 
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1 walked out, set up the radium exposure, came 

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back, it took him, he carried the radium shots 

at the end of the stick and I calculated what 

would be the dose to his body. And there were 

three different things that just came to, 

unusually, three different and totally 

independent approaches which came together or 

overlapped that we feel there is, well we're 

comfortable in saying there is a number there.

And sometime they --

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I have a note 

here also.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Pardon?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: There was a 

radiation survey done by Nuclear Consulting 

Corporation that reported to those film 

badges, the fact that they were film badged --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- and also 

there was an AEC inspection in 1962 --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right, sure, sure.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- November of 
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1 '62.

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: And they looked at 

the film badges of the Nuclear Consulting, 

right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. This was 

an inspection following the license in April 

so --

DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, and they even 

said, oh and they even said, they even 

identified the person in the highest dose 

during the quarter was this person of 55 

millirem in one quarter, in a quarter. I mean 

these were --

 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: What did you 

say, Wanda?

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, I was just 

muttering, very, very low exposures --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

 MEMBER MUNN: -- consistently low 

exposures.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: And those are
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1 recorded.

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 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Now during the 

radium era, there were undoubtedly higher 

exposures because the person making the 

statement to the AEC said they were about one 

quarter of the annual limit --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Which was 

higher.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- on average, 

were a quarter of the annual limit and no one 

was higher, with the implication that somebody 

might have gotten right up to there. So there 

was a drastic change between radium, which was 

very poorly shielded and carried by hand at 

the end of a stick, and the cobalt, which was 

remotely handled, was inside a heavy lead 

shield, was handled by a remote, you know, 

cable, a mechanical cable. And during the 

exposure, they used the same room but they put 

in four inch thick steel shields, that had not 

been there earlier.
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, we know --

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: There was a big 

difference.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Additional 

questions, Josie, on that? Or --

 MR. KATZ: John?

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- John, 

questions?

 MR. KATZ: John Poston, Dr. 

Poston, do you have any other questions?

 MEMBER POSTON: Can you hear me?

 MR. KATZ: Now we can, yes.

 MEMBER POSTON: Oh, okay, I just 

wasn't close enough I guess. I said no 

questions.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, thanks. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, are we 

ready to vote on this item? This is --

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- operational 

period, the second part of the operational 

period. All in favor, aye?
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Aye.

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 MEMBER POSTON: Aye.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Opposed?

 MEMBER BEACH: I'm going to 

abstain from this one.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. I got 

three ayes, one abstain, thank you. Now 

residual period, residual period now would be 

the period for which this internal dose air 

sample data would be used in conjunction with 

TIB-70 to produce the residual period dose, 

which is basically an internal dose. Is there 

any external component added in? It would be 

trivial, I guess, compared to internal but --

 DR. NETON: Yes, it --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- I don't 

recall.

 DR. NETON: I think we would have 

looked at it if there was anything --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: They based the, 

yes --
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1 DR. NETON: TIB-70.

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- Appendix BB 

based the external dose on the readings right 

at the surface of the back calculator, they 

got a external exposure rate and they said 

let's put that, let's use that as a limiting 

dose, external dose --

 DR. NETON: That's right.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- for the entire 

residual period. That was, not based on, but 

that's not --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Would you still 

be using that or --

 DR. NETON: We'd have to go back 

when we remodel it and look at the deposition 

values and what that --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And see if that 

gave a higher value, yes.

 DR. NETON: -- how that compares 

and pick the most --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I think they did 

look at it and said it was a lower -- that the 
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1 groundshine, or I guess you can call it, was 

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lower than from that vacuum cleaner, so that 

was the more limiting.

 DR. NETON: Right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Anyway,

is there a motion on the residual period?

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Wanda?

 MEMBER MUNN: I move that we 

accept the recommendation of the agency for 

the residual period covering GSI.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Is there a 

second?

 MEMBER POSTON: I'll second.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Discussion?

 MS. LIN: Dr. Ziemer?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes?

 MS. LIN: Just to clarify that 

when you guys say residual period, we're 

talking about 1967 to 1992 including the --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: July 1st '66 --

 MS. LIN: July 1st --
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- to December 

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31st, 1992.

 MS. LIN: I'm sorry, July 1st --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: 1966 --

 MS. LIN: 1966.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- to December 

31st, 1992.

 MS. LIN: Okay, so you're 

excluding 1993.

 MR. KATZ: DOE?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, I think the 

residual period officially ended I think --

 MR. KATZ: Was '93 a DOE?

 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: There's FUSRAP 

site remediaton occurred in '93 but that's 

after --

MEMBER BEACH: Yes, on the 

Evaluation Report, that's correct, the July 

1st, '66 to '92.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, I think that was 

what was petitioned for and that's been a 
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1 source of uncertainty here with that '93 being 

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a remediation because, I mean, if you worked 

there in '93, you weren't covered.

 MS. LIN: Thank you.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, so what's 

the right date? I mean the --

 DR. NETON: '92.

MEMBER BEACH: '92.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- the petition 

is the '92 --

 DR. NETON: The petition, that's 

what we're evaluating.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, yes.

 MS. LIN: Thank you.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Discussion on 

the residual period? Okay, are you ready to 

vote? All in favor?

 MEMBER MUNN: Aye.

 MEMBER BEACH: Aye.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: John?

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Poston, you may 

have put yourself on mute.
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1 MEMBER POSTON: Can you hear me?

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 MR. KATZ: Yes, now we can, yes.

 MEMBER POSTON: Okay, I'm just 

getting further and further away from the 

phone. All right, I voted aye.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, thank you.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Four ayes and 

motion carries, okay. Now, a status of 

remaining TBD issues, okay, what we have done 

since the last meeting, we had the July 28th 

version of the Appendix BB findings, and we 

had the June 1st, 2012, these are both 2012, 

version of the SEC petition findings. And --

 MEMBER BEACH: And now we have the 

November 26th.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- and what we 

did subsequently, remember that we took 

actions on, we closed a number of the items on 

the SEC petition and we transferred the others 

to Appendix BB. And so what I asked Bob to 

do, and I did a preliminary review of these 
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1 and gave him my comments and then he has gone 

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ahead with that, specifically on the Issue 2, 

Issue 3, Issue 6, Issue 7, Issue 8, and Issue 

9, those were transferred. There's six of 

them. And I tried to identify to him where I 

thought that they overlapped strongly with 

existing issues. And Bob went through and 

came up with, I think he just distributed it -

- 

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes he did.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- yesterday, a 

final version which, where he's indicated, 

because I didn't want to lose the identity of 

which ones came over, but which ones are still 

in the mix.

 And we had some where at the time, 

when we transferred them, we thought they were 

pretty close to closure but probably a little 

more discussion was needed. And I don't know 

that we're necessarily prepared to deal with 

these individually today, but I wanted to make 

sure, because we just got this document 
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1 yesterday. And we can actually go through it 

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if you want and see if there's any of them 

that we wish to deal with right away or we can 

wait until the next meeting, but at least 

they're all in one place now and they are all 

considered Appendix BB issues, which means 

that we would deal with them together.

 Now I'm also trying to think about 

what the impact would be if the Board were to 

vote to approve the SEC petition, I mean we 

have recommendation but that doesn't mean the 

Board will follow it. I think all of these 

issues would still remain because we would, 

even if this became an SEC, we would still 

have to do dose reconstructions on people who 

didn't meet the requirements, like less than 

250 days or one of the other cancers. So I 

think all of these issues would remain to be

dealt with in any event.

 MR. ALLEN: In that BB, some of 

them may go away --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: They may go away 
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1 if they're --

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 DR. NETON: Based on the reasons 

we're adding the Class.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes.

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, right.

 DR. NETON: Or if the reason is 

because you can't reconstruct external dose.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, then 

those go away, right. So I'm sort of 

reluctant, since we have a Board Meeting 

coming up, I'm sort of reluctant to spend a 

lot of time on this today until we see what 

the Board's action is on the petition. And 

then based on that, we'd move forward. 

Otherwise we could spend a lot of time on 

issues which would turn out to be moot points.

So, unless somebody feels an urgency to deal 

with anything on the findings issues today, 

but are you all clear now what was done on 

this? Any questions on that? Bob, would --

MEMBER BEACH: My only question 

would be on the matrix, the 105. Would we 
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1 just go ahead and close that out, update it, 

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and we're done with that?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I think the 

final thing would show, let me pull the June 

1st one, doesn't show the, yes, it does show 

the transfers. So I think that's the final 

one.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, there was no 

need to --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Except we need

to update that, we need to modify that.

 MR. KATZ: Helen talked about 

that, right?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: You're going to 

modify the comments so that we're going --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay, now that's

in the SEC matrix.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, just so we 

--

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- that's more 

of a correction I think, I would regard that. 
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1 So that just a revision of this update.

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: It's a revision 

--

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- just to 

expand, because I think that's very confusing 

there.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Because it's not, 

I think it's not in the BB matrix, I think 

that's there --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No, but --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- there it's --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- I think 

Josie's asking, you know --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, okay, I'll 

fix that.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- the final 

version of this will just be a revision that 

will have that correction in there.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Of the SEC matrix.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.
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1 MR. KATZ: Yes.

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay, will do, 

will do.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Otherwise 

everything else I think shows it's either 

closed or transferred.

 MEMBER MUNN: May we please have a 

distribution of it when that correction is 

made so that we can stop carrying around all 

the other papers?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right.

 MR. KATZ: Yes, yes.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: You may.

 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you very much.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Your laptop's 

getting heavy with all these megabytes on it.

 MEMBER MUNN: It is, it is, it is, 

far too many.

 MR. KATZ: Electrons, extra 

electrons.

 MEMBER MUNN: Far too many --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I'm going to 
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1 move along here. Plans for the full Board 

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presentation on December 11th, I will 

summarize what we did here on the surrogate 

data issue and then proceed to summarize the 

recommendation of the group, indicating that 

we broke it into these three parts and 

indicating what the vote was so that they 

understand that we're not fully unanimous on 

everything. Also, I guess we need to have 

Dave and Bob stand by for questions. I don't 

know if they need to be there physically, but 

one way or the other either --

 MR. ALLEN: I plan on being there 

physically.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, the social 

aspect.

 MR. KATZ: Yes, and Bob, I think 

it's a good idea that you be there --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: In person?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: In person?

 MR. KATZ: -- because you're hard 

to understand sometimes on the phone and this 
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1 is again, the whole Board is dealing --

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Oh wait a minute, 

so I should go to Oak Ridge?

 MR. KATZ: I think it's a good 

idea.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Oh, I hadn't 

planned to, but okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Knoxville.

 MR. KATZ: It's in Knoxville.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Not Oak Ridge,

it's in Knoxville.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry, 

Knoxville. Close enough.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And then --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay now let's 

see, there is an agenda on that so I will be 

at the thing, okay, fine.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And then also,

on the agenda, and it's not clear to me 

whether Dr. McKeel will be there either by 

phone or in person to represent the 

petitioners because I don't understand the 
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1 letter --

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Since he resigned.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, I think 

he's only talking about the Work Group I 

think.

 MR. KATZ: The Work Group, only 

the Work Group.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So we need to 

allow time on that for --

 MR. KATZ: Yes, there will be time 

on the agenda, of course --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- for 

petitioners.

 MR. KATZ: -- for the petitioners, 

there always will be.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, right. 

So that would be the plan for the full Board 

presentation in December.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: So I will not make 

a presentation though, just be available.

 MR. KATZ: Right. Do we need Dave 

to make a presentation on the update or not? 
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1 He's --

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, I think a 

brief description of what the final, because 

we were focusing on this surrogate data thing.

 MR. KATZ: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So Dave, I think 

we need a brief summary because really, the 

Board, it was the full Board that asked you to 

go back and do this so I think we have to 

report that out. So I'll kick it off and then 

I'll ask you to make your presentation. SC&A 

may want to indicate something about their 

review also.

 MR. KATZ: Well, I think Dave 

could just encapsulate it all because you had 

discussion here and you came to some agreement 

in here about some of what SC&A reviewed. I 

think you could do it all in one shot.

 MR. ALLEN: Now are we talking 

about for this surrogate thing that we just 

did this morning or overall?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, just the 
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1 surrogate thing.

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 MR. KATZ: Yes, just the 

surrogate.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: You need to be 

prepared to answer questions on the other 

things, but we went through those all before.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, yes, I'm just 

talking about the presentation.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, yes, 

because the Board had asked you to go back and 

do that. I think we need a report because the 

Board asked for that surrogate data thing.

 MEMBER BEACH: And will you be 

updating your White Paper to incorporate some 

of the changes and removing some of the items 

that we discussed?

 MR. ALLEN: I certainly can, I 

think I can do it quickly.

 DR. NETON: I don't know if we 

need to have the final product.

 MEMBER BEACH: Well generally, 

final products are put out there so the Board 
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1 Members can review them, especially on the 

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surrogate data issue.

 DR. NETON: Right, but I was 

thinking that this could just be the same 

thing we've done here, which is to say SC&A 

has commented and we agree with some of the 

comments and they're going to be incorporated 

because it's --

 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, and that's 

fine, I was just --

 DR. NETON: -- frankly where he's 

getting real close.

 MR. KATZ: So the Board will have 

Dave's paper, the Board will have Bob's paper, 

and then Dave in his presentation, he can talk 

about the resolution that was addressed in 

this meeting, how that worked out. And I 

think that would take care of it. And Bob, if 

you're they're for questions, I think we'll be 

in good shape.

DR. ANIGSTEIN: Sure.

 MEMBER BEACH: And some Board 
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1 Members, not all, but some may want to see the 

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data. And if it was easier, because when I 

looked for it, some of those documents are 157 

pages and to pinpoint the pages that were 

used, it would be helpful because I know I'd 

like to go back and review that again.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay.

 MR. ALLEN: I think our best bet 

on that maybe would be for me to go like that 

150-some page document, pull the two pages out 

that we used.

 DR. NETON: Put them out there on 

the drive.

 MEMBER BEACH: That would be 

great.

 MR. ALLEN: Put them on the drive 

separately as --

 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, if you 

wouldn't mind doing that.

 MR. ALLEN: -- that's easy, I can 

do that and I think Steve might have a problem 

if I try to just print it out and post it.
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1 MEMBER BEACH: No, no, I don't 

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expect that. Just the Board Members.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No, it's got to 

be on the O: drive.

 DR. NETON: It's getting pretty 

close to the meeting to start --

 MR. KATZ: Well yes, right. If 

you send it to me I can also distribute those 

at least by email, to the Board Members and 

their CDC. That's all internal.

 MR. ALLEN: Well, I think the 

issue was that DOE needed to review some of 

this stuff before it got --

 MR. KATZ: Oh I see, okay, sorry. 

So I can't even email them.

 MR. ALLEN: You should be able to 

post it on --

 MEMBER BEACH: Can I make a 

suggestion? In the Advisory Board documents 

where you posted them for me, can you just 

make a file that says these are the pages? I 

mean that is simple and it's still on the --
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1 MR. ALLEN: I think the easiest 

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and the most above-board way would be for me 

to make a subfolder there, toss the full 

document in that, and then put the subpages 

only right where I got them right now for you.

And then if somebody wants to see the full 

document they can, if they want to just zero 

in on the particular ones they can.

 MEMBER BEACH: That would be 

helpful.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, so if you just 

send me then the link, that would be great.

 MR. ALLEN: Yes, right.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I already put 

together, just for my own use during, you 

know, while I was working on this, and I have 

an excerpt of all the pages, all the relevant 

pages, in addition to a couple of the things 

that Dave didn't include, on the same sites I 

found other --

 MEMBER BEACH: Well here's the 

deal. I used that, but going through it, it 
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1 was --

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20 

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 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No, I'm saying is, 

for instance, right now, I could put together 

--

 MEMBER BEACH: Oh, you printed it 

out.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: -- about a 20-page 

file, with just the thing that you saw, I 

mean, you saw a couple of my excerpts, the 

actual data sheet, but also like the memo. In 

some cases, for whatever reason, the SRDB put 

together, there's a lot of stuff from 

different places.

 And what I did was I printed out 

for myself and I put it in a separate file, 

the memo written by the field operative to his 

boss saying here's what we did, here's what we 

found, and then the data sheets are post, so 

typically it's two or three pages, you know, 

we went there, we visited, this is what they 

were doing. And then attached to that are the 

actual sheets from the -- from what I can 
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1 remember. All they do was they go in with 

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something with a paper filter and a pump and 

take air sample. Then they send the filters 

to the laboratory which then prepares a report 

on what they measured. So that's why you have 

these data sheets. So if, I mean, I don't 

want, you know, if Dave is doing it, I don't 

want to duplicate or supplant what he's doing 

but --

 MEMBER BEACH: Well, you have that 

electronically, right?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, of course I 

have it electronically.

 MEMBER BEACH: So you could just 

send that to Ted also and Ted could decide if 

--

 MR. KATZ: Well, I'm not clear on 

what can be released, so I think he needs to 

provide it to Dave and Dave can give me a 

single --

CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, let Dave do 

it so that it doesn't mess up with the DOE 
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1 stuff.

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 MR. ALLEN: Yes if you send it to 

me then I'll try to decide what's out there 

and what you got --

 MR. KATZ: Yes, just send it to 

Dave.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay.

 MR. ALLEN: -- one way or another 

we'll make it clear. And if anybody has a 

better suggestion after you see it and you 

want it tweaked, just email me and I'll tweak 

it however you want.

 MEMBER BEACH: And that will be 

perfect.

 MR. KATZ: We'll let you handle 

that.

 MR. ALLEN: Okay.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I'll send it to 

Dave, with a copy to you. No?

 MR. KATZ: Just go ahead, send it 

to Dave.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Very good, okay.
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1 MR. KATZ: That would be perfect.

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, are there 

other items that we need to discuss today? 

Ted?

 MR. KATZ: Not unless you want to 

schedule the next Work Group meeting for 

beyond the Board Meeting.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, that would 

be the next step. But any other items that we 

need to discuss today?

 MR. KATZ: No.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, we're 

going to have to go through the matrix, the 

findings matrix, also we have some other 

things on the horizon that we need to deal 

with.

 MEMBER BEACH: I didn't know if 

you wanted to check with petitioners again for 

final comments or --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, well, we 

can do that, but where do we stand on the 

Simonds Saw, or not Simonds Saw, the one that 
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1 was transferred?

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 MR. KATZ: I think it is Simonds 

Saw, I thought we were calling right now. I 

couldn't tell you where we are right now, but 

I think we're at a point where the Work Group 

needs to take it up, whatever it is, I think 

it may be Simonds Saw.

 DR. NETON: What's going on with 

Simonds?

 MR. KATZ: The TBD review, profile 

review. We have a Site Profile review from 

SC&A, I think.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: It somehow ended 

up with us.

 MR. KATZ: So it's a timing issue.

It should be, yes, and we have a timing issue.

I think I communicated with Dave about timing, 

I think.

 MR. ALLEN: Really?

 MR. KATZ: Yes, well, I've 

communicated with DCAS. I don't recall the 

status, but I think I'm supposed to be told at 
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1 some point, not you, what's her name?

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 MR. ALLEN: Sam?

 MR. KATZ: Or is Laura involved 

perhaps? Laura or Sam.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, Laura's 

doing Lawrence Berkeley.

 DR. NETON: It would have been 

Sam, if anybody.

 MR. KATZ: Okay. I communicated 

with someone at DCAS, and I think it's in the 

works.

 MR. ALLEN: For some reason, I 

think it's an SEC petition, and I think it was 

a recommended add and I think it was --

 MR. KATZ: Well that's all taken 

care of. That's done, this is a TBD, Site 

Profile.

 MR. ALLEN: -- Work Group has ever 

seen any of it or -- 

 MR. KATZ: No, so the Work Group 

hasn't dealt with it before.

 MR. ALLEN: Okay.
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But SC&A has 

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reviewed this.

 MR. KATZ: SC&A has done a review 

and we need the Work Group to review the 

review and come to conclusions about the Site

Profile.

 DR. NETON: Before you do that, it 

sounds like DCAS needs to review the review.

 MR. KATZ: And yes, and that's 

what I've communicated about with someone at 

DCAS, whoever was appropriate, I can't tell 

you.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, once that's 

done then the Work Group needs to address that 

also.

 MR. KATZ: Exactly. And I've 

asked about timing. I'm not sure, I don't 

recall what the timing is there in getting a 

DCAS response, which is what we need for the 

Work Group --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, now are 

there any other Work Groups scheduled after 
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1 mid-January that we can piggyback so we can 

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conserve time for people?

 MEMBER BEACH: There's one in 

February 5th.

 MR. KATZ: There's February, we 

have two Subcommittee Meetings. We have the 

Dose Reconstruction on the 4th and we have 

Procedures on the 5th.

 MEMBER MUNN: Do we still have a 

teleconference scheduled on the 7th?

 MR. KATZ: Yes, that's a full 

Board teleconference, right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But actually, if 

we did the 6th, that wouldn't work, Wanda, 

because you would be traveling on the 7th.

 MEMBER MUNN: No, I'm trying to --

 MR. KATZ: Right.

 MEMBER MUNN: -- I'm not going to 

be very flexible.

 MR. KATZ: And it gets to be 

difficult anyway once you have three days 

together, that's a lot.
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1 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, yes, 

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that's too much.

 MR. KATZ: So we should probably 

look --

 MS. LIN: Spending the whole week 

together would be too much?

 MR. KATZ: All that love.

 MEMBER MUNN: It really would.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: January going to 

be too early though.

 MEMBER MUNN: I won't be 

traveling, I can probably get in on that.

 MR. KATZ: Yes, Wanda, January is 

very difficult for Wanda.

 MEMBER MUNN: But I can be on the 

phone after middle of the month, I guess.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: What about late 

February?

 MEMBER MUNN: It's doable.

 DR. NETON: That NCRP Meeting is 

the end of February.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: What?
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1 DR. NETON: 22nd.

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: 22nd?

 DR. NETON: That is a Friday? 

That doesn't seem right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That is a 

Friday.

 DR. NETON: Oh no, that's my 

presentation to do, I think.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, that was 

important to get on the record.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: What about like 

the 27th of February?

 MEMBER MUNN: That's probably 

going to be okay for me.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Josie?

 MEMBER BEACH: What did you say, 

the 27th?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes.

 MEMBER BEACH: I'm actually tied

up that week.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay.

 MR. KATZ: Is previously no good, 
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1 in February, is that the --

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: 20th?

 MR. KATZ: -- the week of the 

20th?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: 18th, 19th, 

20th, 21st, I can do any day.

 MEMBER BEACH: 18th is a holiday.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: It is?

 MEMBER BEACH: President's Day.

 DR. NETON: 18th of February?

 MR. KATZ: That makes sense, 

right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: For some who are 

retired, every day's a holiday.

 MR. KATZ: I didn't want to say 

that, but --

 MEMBER BEACH: I'm good with the 

end of the week that week if that --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: 21st?

 MEMBER BEACH: 21st, 22nd.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: How's the 21st, 

Wanda?
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1 MR. KATZ: 21st of February?

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 MEMBER MUNN: Let's see, that was 

the 22nd? Yes, that would be okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: 21st?

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, so next Work 

Group meeting will be February 21st?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes.

 MR. KATZ: John Poston, is that 

good for you?

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes, I think so. 

I'll have to make some arrangements. I'm sure 

I have class on that day.

 MEMBER MUNN: On Thursday.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, 21st. It 

can always be changed if -- that's still 

subject to getting the documents.

 MR. KATZ: Yes. But that's 

helpful actually to --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, to have a 

target date.

 MR. KATZ: -- move the rest 
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1 forward, so --

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And that's okay 

with you, Bob?

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: When is --

 MR. KATZ: Well it may not be Bob, 

oh, you'll need him for this.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: When is okay?

 MR. KATZ: February 21st.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I guess so.

 MR. KATZ: Okay.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I have a calendar 

on my computer at home, I don't have it here.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Oh, okay, well

check it when you get home.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: As far as I know 

it's okay.

 MR. KATZ: Okay.

 MEMBER BEACH: So is Simonds Saw 

our only other site for this Work Group, 

besides GSI? I thought we had another one.

 MR. KATZ: There may be something 

--
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1 MS. LIN: Lawrence Berkeley?

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 MR. KATZ: No, not --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No that's 

different --

 MR. KATZ: Bliss and Laughlin's 

the other site. I don't recall where we are 

with Bliss and Laughlin, but that may be --

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I think we're 

done with Bliss and Laughlin.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, so then it would 

be I think.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Then we had some 

transferred over to 6001.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, so for the agenda 

for that meeting, in any event, we would have 

plenty to do on it.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, we'll 

certainly do what we can on the matrix --

 MR. KATZ: Right.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- depending on 

the outcome of the next meeting of the Board.

 MR. KATZ: Right and then Simonds 
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1 Saw.

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And start on the 

Simonds Saw.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Was that February, 

what day of the week?

 MR. KATZ: 21.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Pardon?

 MR. KATZ: It's a Thursday.

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Thursday, February 

21, okay.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, I think 

we're ready to adjourn then. Thank you, 

everybody. Oh wait, hang on --

 DR. ANIGSTEIN: We're going home?

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, we will in 

a minute. Let's see, John Ramspott, are you 

still on the line?

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Yes, I'm on the 

line.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, do you have 

any other comments for us, John, today? 

You've heard the outcome but, you know --
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1 MR. RAMSPOTT: I heard the 

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outcome, yes.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- we're still 

going through, we still have to go through --

 MR. RAMSPOTT: I'm going to wait 

now, but I'll get a chance in front of the 

full Board.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, right.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: But a couple items 

that definitely got my attention, I guess, you 

guys totally skipped a '53 to '58 period where 

you have no information. I guess I just found 

that pretty unusual. And I guess the reason 

for that, according to SC&A was there was an 

individual that was there, I guess, the whole 

time, that was a safety officer and he kind of 

knew everything and said everything was fine. 

And I find that unusual too just because no 

one's every interviewed that person, I mean, I 

know that firsthand. No one's ever talked to 

him.

 And I guess just the fact that you 
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1 can work with no information for a time frame, 

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even though it was only five years, is pretty 

incredible. In my old business, I mean, I was 

in business for 40 years, I could never do 

that with a major account and hold any 

credibility with them. So I guess that's 

really all I had to say and I, disappointed to 

say the least, but that just kind of got 

buzzed by real quick, that real important time 

frame there where you have no information. 

That was amazing.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, and John, 

again, remember the full Board is meeting and 

I don't know if, I'm assuming Dr. McKeel will 

be on board for that meeting, but you can fill 

him in on this one in the meantime.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Yes, well he's his 

own guy, he makes his own decisions on that so 

--

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, yes, 

right. Okay, good.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: -- that's where 
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1 we'll have to leave it, I guess.

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 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, John, 

thank you.

 MR. RAMSPOTT: Thank you.

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, any other 

items to come before us today? If not, we are 

adjourned. Thank you very much. 

 MR. KATZ: Thank you everyone on 

the line. Goodbye, John Poston.

 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter went off the record at 12:16 p.m.)