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NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

OFFICE OF COMPENSATION ANALYSIS AND SUPPORT

+ + + + +

SUBCOMMITTEE FOR DOSE RECONSTRUCTION REVIEWS

+ + + + +

MONDAY,

DECEMBER 8, 2008

+ + + + +

The Subcommittee convened at 9:30 a.m. 

in the Zurich Room of the Cincinnati Airport 

Marriott Hotel, Michael Griffon, Subcommittee 

Chair, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

MARK GRIFFON, Chair

BRADLEY P. CLAWSON

MICHAEL H. GIBSON

WANDA I. MUNN
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ALSO PRESENT:

KATHY BEHLING, SC&A*

LARRY ELLIOTT, OCAS*

DOUG FARVER, SC&A

ZEDA E. HOMOKI-TITUS, HHS*

STUART HINNEFELD, OCAS

EMILY HOWELL, HHS

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

SCOTT SIEBERT, ORAU

*Participating via telephone
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TABLE OF CONTENTS

WELCOME:

Ted Katz................................... 3

Mark Griffon............................... 5

SIXTH SET OF CASES:........................ 7

102........................................ 7

103 & .1................................... 8

104 thru .7............................... 36

105.1..................................... 41

106 thru .4............................... 54

107.1 thru .6............................ 103

110 thru .3.............................. 107

111 thru .2.............................. 115

112 thru .2.............................. 116

113 thru .3.............................. 117

114 thru .5.............................. 132

115...................................... 139

116 thru .4.............................. 140

117 ..................................... 141

118 thru .7.............................. 142

119 thru .3.............................. 166

120 thru .6.............................. 169

SUMMARY REPORT OF FIRST 100 CASES:....... 179

SEVENTH SET OF CASES:.................... 218

121.1 thru .8............................ 228

122.1 thru .10........................... 245

123.1.................................... 304

124.1 thru .4............................ 311

125.1 thru .9............................ 320

126.1 & .2............................... 343

127.1 thru .12........................... 359

128.1 thru .4............................ 406

SET NEXT MEETING FOR JANUARY 29, 2009:... 411

ADJOURN:

Mark Griffon............................. 418
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 9:38 a.m.

3 MR. KATZ: Good morning. This is 

4 Ted Katz. I'm the Acting Designated Federal 

5 Official for the Subcommittee on Dose 

6 Reconstruction Review of the Advisory Board on 

7 Radiation Worker Health and we are about to 

8 get started with roll call. We will start in 

9 the room with Board Members beginning with the 

10 Chair.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Mark Griffon, 

12 Board Member, Chair of the Subcommittee.

13 MEMBER CLAWSON: Brad Clawson, 

14 Member of the Advisory Board.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Wanda Munn, Board 

16 Member.

17 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, Board 

18 Member.

19 MR. FARVER: Doug Farver, SC&A.

20 MR. KATZ: No, wait, wait. Board 

21 Members first. So on the telephone do we have 

22 Board Members on the telephone? Dr. Poston? 
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1 And Mr. Presley? Okay. Now, going around the 

2 room, NIOSH ORAU Team?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Stu Hinnefeld, 

4 Technical Program Manager for the OCAS.

5 MR. SIEBERT: Scott Siebert, ORAU 

6 Team.

7 MR. KATZ: And on the telephone, 

8 NIOSH ORAU?

9 MR. ELLIOTT: Larry Elliott, 

10 Director of OCAS.

11 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Larry. Okay, 

12 then SC&A in the room?

13 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A.

14 MR. FARVER: Doug Farver, SC&A.

15 MR. KATZ: And on the telephone?

16 MS. BEHLING: Kathy Behling, SC&A.

17 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Kathy. And 

18 now, HHS?

19 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell.

20 MR. KATZ: Or other Government?

21 MS. HOWELL: HHS.

22 MR. KATZ: And on the telephone?
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1 MS. HOMOKI-TITUS: Liz Homoki2 Titus, HHS.

3 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Liz.

4 MS. HOMOKI-TITUS: Thanks.

5 MR. KATZ: That sounds like that's 

6 it. And then is there anyone else from the 

7 public or the congressional office on the 

8 telephone? Okay. And then just -- I'll 

9 remind everyone, please, mute, star 6, when 

10 you are not speaking on the telephone and, 

11 please, do not put us on hold, but call back 

12 in, instead. And, Mark, it's all yours.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. I 

14 think the agenda today is pretty similar to 

15 past agendas. I think we are going to cover 

16 the sixth set of cases and I don't think we 

17 have many outstanding items on the sixth set. 

18 The seventh set of cases we have taken one 

19 run through there, but we need to revisit many 

20 of the items in there, I think. And then the 

21 eighth set, we have not had any discussion of 

22 those. We have got NIOSH=s -B for the most 
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1 part, almost all your comments --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: I think most of 

3 them, yes. I think there is one procedure 

4 that might be important to respond to.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: And at the end, 

6 the --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And then the 

8 things at the back.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Like profile 

11 reviews.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Like profile 

13 reviews, yes, having to adjust those, right. 

14 So we'll start with those. The other item on 

15 the agenda is this summary letter of the first 

16 100 cases that I sent out a revision of that. 

17 I did slightly modify some of the language in 

18 it, so we can maybe have a discussion on that.

19 If it looks like we are running 

20 low on time, I might want to move that up on 

21 the agenda after lunch, so we get that in, 

22 because that may, you know, finish that. That 
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1 would be good to bring to the Board in two 

2 weeks.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: So starting on the 

5 sixth set of cases. Maybe we can just run 

6 through and people, collectively, our memories 

7 can tell us where we stand on these findings. 

8 102, do we have any outstanding findings on 

9 102? We have got all --

10 MEMBER MUNN: Before we get --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes?

12 MEMBER MUNN: -- very far into 

13 that, Mark, may I ask is there a later version 

14 of the matrix than the August version?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, created by 

OCAS August 20th, 16 is the latest version I have.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Right. The one I 

18 have --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MEMBER MUNN: -- in the record.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: And a lot of 

22 those, as I said, a lot of my hand markings in 
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1 the final two columns, the resolution and the 

2 program action are on my hard copy. And I 

3 have not yet added those on, but hopefully if 

4 we close all this out, I will do that after 

5 this meeting and circulate it. Okay. 

6 So 103, is there anything in 103? 

7 I have a note that says, consider and prompt 

8 review TIB-18 and TIB-33, on the TIB-18/TIB-33 

9 finding.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Which item?

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: I am looking at 

12 103.1.

13 MEMBER MUNN: One?

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

15 DR. MAURO: Generic issues related 

16 to 18 and 33.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

18 MEMBER MUNN: I believe we've got 

19 them.

20 DR. MAURO: Yes.

21 MEMBER MUNN: And procedures.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then, the 
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1 question I have always then is that when we --

2 even if we resolve it in procedures, the 

3 application of a procedure to a case is 

4 different than reviewing the procedure itself.

5 MEMBER MUNN: It is.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: So how does it 

7 come back here, you know? How do we -- I 

8 mean, we're saying we're deferring it to the 

9 Procedures Group, but again, it's this 

10 question of not losing it.

11 MEMBER MUNN: Well, then the real 

12 question is should the program actions be 

13 transferred with the assumption that this will 

14 be incorporated or do we need to establish 

15 something like we use in the Procedures Group 

16 where there is a list of open items?

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, like in 

18 abeyance or --

19 MEMBER MUNN: A punch list or 

20 something.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, I think it 

2 almost has to be that it is anything that we 

3 transfer, we have to then wait and see what 

4 happens in the Procedures Group and pending 

5 that, we'll have to come back and revisit this 

6 one, right?

7 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: So --

9 MEMBER MUNN: There is a feedback 

10 loop that we haven't finished here.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: There might be 

13 automated processes in place that this gets 

14 taken care of and you may want, rather than to 

15 track every one of these or keep track of 

16 which ones they are, but samples, to see that 

17 the resolution is what you would expect.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: In other words, if 

19 you are allotted --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Here is what I'm 

21 going to say, because the finding is -- since 

22 it was -- I don't recall it real well, but 
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1 since it was transferred to the Procedures 

2 Work Group, I would believe the finding 

3 related to structure of TIB-18 -- what does 

4 TIB-18 tell people to do?

5 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And so if, in 

7 fact, TIB-18 is then modified because of the 

8 review of TIB-18, and that modification would 

9 require that -- would mean that cases done in 

10 this fashion did not receive sufficiently high 

11 doses, you know, in that circumstance. Those 

12 cases then would have to be reconsidered and 

13 reevaluated in an PER process. And so that 

14 process then should receive and close that 

15 whole business.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Actually, I think 

17 I can answer that one.

18 DR. MAURO: TIB-18 is more -- I 

19 believe it is a little bit more complicated. 

20 On the TIB-18, there is the default MPC 

21 approach. In other words, basically what is 

22 being said is, listen, after a certain date, 
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1 all DOE facilities are following DOE Order 54. 

2 And I think TIB-18 was the MPC concept.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

4 DR. MAURO: If I remember 

5 correctly. And then OTIB-33 was the 

6 adjustment factors. Well, you may not be at 

7 100 percent.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

9 DR. MAURO: And there were some 

10 fundamental issues that went toward that that 

11 said well, listen, is that really appropriate? 

12 To universally, just automatically just say 

13 oh, okay, well, this facility falls on the 

14 TIB-18. We could feel a degree of confidence 

15 that if it had a good health physics program -

16 -

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, and that's 

18 the key.

19 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: There is the 

21 baseline assumption that they had a rigorous 

22 air monitoring.
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1 DR. MAURO: Right. Now, this is 

2 where I think TIB-18, as a generic procedure, 

3 is a really important procedure to review, 

4 because it really adopts a universal that, in 

5 effect, solves all problems. You know, you 

6 say well, if you know you had a good air 

7 sampling program, you could feel confident 

8 that would be preconceived doses.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

10 DR. MAURO: Now, I think on one 

11 level that will be resolved during the 

12 procedures. But then when you apply that to a 

13 particular case, you say, okay, now we have a 

14 real case that adopted it. Then you have to 

15 ask yourself the question well, in this 

16 particular case, let's say they decide to go 

17 in one half MPC with certain default 

18 radionuclides as being the universal for the 

19 internal for this case.

20 I think that then you are actually 

21 implementing TIB-18. Let's say we decide it 

22 is okay, but now you are implementing it for 
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1 this case. And then the question becomes, did 

2 we implement it in this case in a way that is 

3 claimant-favorable for this case? So I could 

4 very well see this as being a very good 

5 example of the two-step process.

6 You know, why you would first try 

7 to say, listen, are we comfortable with the 

8 fundamental strategy that is being used? And 

9 then once you are comfortable with it, has it 

10 been implemented in a way, for this case, that 

11 everybody is comfortable?

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: In general, I 

13 agree with you, John. In this case, I think 

14 we closed it out, because it is a compensable 

15 plan.

16 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: And I just thought 

18 I would note it. So it's a compensable one 

19 and the real question or issue that came up in 

20 our discussions was why was TIB-18 used for a 

21 compensable plan and was not, you know, in 

22 fact, early on used that way?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: It was, in fact, 

2 part of that same direction to our contractor 

3 when we told him to use TIB-4 for the 

4 compensable plan.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: As part of that 

7 same --

8 DR. MAURO: Yes, we have a number 

9 of places where this recurs. That is, we see 

10 TIB-4 or see TIB-18 used for the purpose of 

11 compensation.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

13 DR. MAURO: I have to say I'm 

14 still not quite sure, because I just did a 

15 TIB-4 and I'm not quite sure what the position 

16 is, whether or not you can use it for the 

17 purpose of --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Not as it is 

19 written now.

20 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: No. In fact, our 

22 position, in fact, is so much of the debate 
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1 now at certain sites where we don't have much 

2 information, but they were uranium sites. 

3 What you can do to reconstruct the dose and 

4 can you use TIB-4? And so there are actually 

5 other approaches now. TIB-4 is obsolete.

6 DR. MAURO: You go to --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: TIB-6000.

8 DR. MAURO: 6,000.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Which is really 

10 what should be done.

11 DR. MAURO: Yes.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: So it's not, in my 

14 understanding, being used.

15 DR. MAURO: So when we do see 

16 compensation on a TIB-4, we should alert you 

17 to that? Because that's what I just did 

18 recently on a very --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: If it is a newer 

20 case, it depends.

21 DR. MAURO: Well, now --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: That too, yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: -- it was going back a 

2 ways.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: See and it could 

4 have been during that one period of time.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

6 DR. MAURO: Right.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. But in 

8 general, John, I think you are right about 

9 TIB-18, but not for this case.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: So I --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: I would close this 

12 out.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I think this one 

14 can be closed, but then I think what your --

15 your concern though is about cases that are 

16 referred to another work group.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: And how you --

19 what do you do with those?

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, there are 

21 issues that are referred and --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And so the 
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1 issue underlying those findings --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: -- was referred to 

4 that work group. So what happens to this case 

5 and it sounds like, at the very least, you 

6 would want to keep track of it.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: And whether you 

9 decide to verify every single one or whether 

10 you try the sampling.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: We can discuss 

12 that.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, okay.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: And you know what 

15 I'll do is I might have to renew that 

16 discussion with SC&A about taking the same 

17 kind of database and using it for all this 

18 stuff. I mean, we talked about it initially 

19 with Kathy.

20 DR. MAURO: But I can check with 

21 Kathy with all of these data.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: I actually did it 
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1 in a very primitive form. I imported all the 

2 Excel spreadsheets into the Access Database 

3 just for my own purposes, but in a very 

4 primitive way. It doesn't have all the bells 

5 and whistles that he put in.

6 DR. MAURO: Well, Doug, are all 

7 the data now loaded into this Access kind of 

8 arrangement for test, do you know?

9 MR. FARVER: I do not know.

10 DR. MAURO: Kathy, are you on the 

11 line?

12 MS. BEHLING: Yes, I am, John. 

13 And no, the database has been pretty much 

14 completed and it is out on the O: drive, but, 

15 at this point, we have not had the time. We 

16 haven't loaded that data yet. In fact, we 

17 still really need for the Subcommittee, for 

18 Mark and the Subcommittee, to look over the 

19 database and decide if this is the way they 

20 want it to look. So we haven't gone --

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Do you have a beta 

22 version of the database for DR review?
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1 MS. BEHLING: Yes, we do. And it 

2 is loaded on the O: drive.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. I haven't 

4 seen it.

5 MS. BEHLING: Yes.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Nobody alerted me 

7 to that, yes.

8 MS. BEHLING: Okay. 

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. That's 

10 okay.

11 MS. BEHLING: I apologize, yes. 

12 Don just recently has loaded that out and it's 

13 in the same location as a separate database, 

14 so as the procedures.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Procedures, okay, 

16 okay.

17 MS. BEHLING: Yes, it does exist. 

18 I just have not -- we have not loaded it yet.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I'll ask --

20 I will work with you guys. I think I would 

21 like to do that off-line, though.

22 MS. BEHLING: Yes.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: But if any members 

2 of the Subcommittee look on -- you know, 

3 review that and if you have any comments on 

4 how it is going to -- how it is structured, 

5 send them to me and I can work with Kathy and 

6 we can get a -- you know, if we need to tweak 

7 it at all, we will do that.

8 DR. MAURO: Well, one of my --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then maybe in 

10 the, you know, meetings going forward, we can 

11 start to work from that.

12 DR. MAURO: You know, one of my 

13 experiences, Kathy, I'm not sure if it will 

14 apply here also, is in terms of, you know, the 

15 organizational structure of the database, the 

16 fundamental framework and the information it 

17 contains, you take it as far as you can in 

18 principle. And then what happens is you say, 

19 okay, now it's loaded. We do this on 

20 procedures.

21 And once you start to load it, and 

22 once you start to use it, it's only then that 
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1 it comes to life.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, that's right.

3 DR. MAURO: So I don't think we 

4 should expect that we're going to have all our 

5 problems solved --

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, no.

7 DR. MAURO: -- because we have 

8 loaded. It's one you start. In my opinion, 

9 the sooner you start loading the database, the 

10 sooner you're going to get it done and get, 

11 not all the nots, it's going to take a little 

12 -- it's always a little bumpy, but eventually 

13 you get there. I can tell you right now, I'm 

14 very pleased the way things have ended up on 

15 procedures. They are coming in very handy for 

16 me.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, but I don't 

18 want to have Kathy waste a lot of time loading 

19 O: matrices, either, because I notes here. 

20 You know, I want to update what I have and 

21 then they can load the latest information.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes. If it turns out 
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1 it makes more sense, especially you close --

2 let's say you're done with the first 100 

3 cases, you know --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

5 DR. MAURO: -- why even bother?

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

7 DR. MAURO: It's sticking up --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, unless we 

9 want it for archival purposes, you know. We 

10 talked about that for the other.

11 MEMBER MUNN: And this might be as 

12 good a time as any to think about the issue 

13 that started this entire discussion, that is, 

14 how much tracking needs to follow once we have 

15 it transferred.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

17 MEMBER MUNN: If it is transferred 

18 somewhere, then how do we prime the system so 

19 that there's closure from the transfer point?

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, also, how do 

21 we know, I can tell you in the first five 

22 sets, we had a bunch that were transferred for 
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1 site profile review, I believe, you know, or 

2 site review. And even though we said we 

3 completed the five sets, there were still some 

4 that, you know, completed was not defined as 

5 your Procedures Work Group is defined.

6 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: So yes, that's an 

8 issue for the -- because the site profile --

9 again, the site profile ones, you know, we 

10 reviewed on that separate work group and then 

11 we -- somehow we have to be alerted on the --

12 this Subcommittee that it is completed there, 

13 you know.

14 MR. KATZ: I think you would want 

15 to have a check-back where you keep control of 

16 the information yourself as well as asking 

17 them to report back, because it may not 

18 happen.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

20 MEMBER MUNN: It might be 

21 worthwhile to set up an hour's worth of 

22 telephone conversation, technical conversation 
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1 with respect to how to build in that automatic 

2 feedback, so that this group, for example, 

3 does not continually be in the position of 

4 needing to probe some other committee --

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

6 MEMBER MUNN: -- for the feedback 

7 that you need.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: But the problem --

9 yes, I guess.

10 DR. MAURO: In this system you 

11 have it transferred. Okay. Let's say we 

12 transfer to the Procedure's Work Group OTIB13 18. Okay. And it says transfer. Let's say 

14 we did that here. Wouldn't that automatically 

15 be our system?

16 In other words, if you look as 

17 well, this one has been transferred, then 

18 automatically you go over and say has it been 

19 closed in 18? If it's not closed yet in 18, 

20 then you're still alive.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

22 DR. MAURO: So if it's closed in 
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1 18, then you say, okay, it has been closed in 

2 18. We could go --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: But if the 

4 databases --

5 DR. MAURO: I'm saying that --

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- are linked --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I think Wanda is 

8 saying somehow have a link that says, you 

9 know, if it's transferred on a certain date 

10 and then in procedures review if it's closed 

11 out, then it will automatically alert you.

12 DR. MAURO: That has been closed 

13 out. That would be flagged, yes.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Flagged, right.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, that would be 

16 nice. Instead of having to do it, you know, 

17 like manually. The other thing is with --

18 it's not so bad with procedures, but when you 

19 get into the site profile reviews, you're 

20 talking about, what, 20 different work groups.

21 DR. MAURO: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: And we'll have to 

2 contact each chair and say, you know.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'm not even sure 

5 when we transfer them that the work group 

6 always knows that we transferred them. I 

7 think NIOSH always knows and probably keeps it 

8 in the loop. But you know what I mean, when 

9 we say this is a site profile issue, I'm not 

10 necessarily sure there is a system to make 

11 sure that the chair of that work group knows 

12 that we have just sent them something, you 

13 know.

14 MEMBER MUNN: No, these 

15 administrative details --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I know, I 

17 know.

18 MEMBER MUNN: -- are really --

19 DR. MAURO: See, to me, it's they 

20 only come to life after you start to 

21 implement.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: I agree, I agree.
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1 DR. MAURO: Right now, we're just 

2 right out of the woods on procedures and we're 

3 sort of marching. Now, we're about to enter 

4 the woods on dose reconstructions.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: And how it actually --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: But my hope is 

8 that we have a lot of the same similar 

9 interests, yes.

10 DR. MAURO: Oh, I think we will. 

11 But until we load and use --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

13 DR. MAURO: -- I=d say these kinds 

14 of details aren't going to emerge and be 

15 resolved in a way that really serves us well. 

16 It's hard to anticipate --

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know.

18 DR. MAURO: -- in advance what 

19 will work.

20 MEMBER MUNN: It is. Although, if 

21 we can agree to at least utilize the same 

22 terminology --
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MEMBER MUNN: -- so that transfers 

4 made --

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think we have 

6 to, yes.

7 MEMBER MUNN: And in abeyance 

8 means the same thing.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Then that in itself 

11 will be helpful.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I agree.

13 MEMBER MUNN: The only final loop 

14 that does not appear to be closed, as I 

15 understand our system to be operating now, is 

16 that feedback to the point of origin.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

18 MEMBER MUNN: To let the 

19 originator know this has been closed or it is 

20 being held in abeyance. There is no feedback.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Automatic feedback.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Because we haven't 

2 had two databases, yes.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

4 MS. BEHLING: This is Kathy 

5 Behling. I just want to briefly summarize 

6 what I did with the dose reconstruction 

7 database. I did try very hard to make it as 

8 similar to the procedures database and using 

9 all of the same status terminology that we are 

10 using for the procedures. We tried to make 

11 sure everything is as consistent as we have 

12 already developed for the procedures, because 

13 that does seem to be working.

14 And as you have mentioned, I 

15 envision that since these systems are all 

16 going to be linked, and currently we only have 

17 the procedures, as you know, and we do have in 

18 place now, but it hasn't been tested or really 

19 reviewed, as I indicated on the dose 

20 reconstruction database.

21 But I do envision that once --

22 since they are linked and once -- and we know 
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1 that they are going to be transferred, a 

2 finding will be transferred from one system to 

3 the other once it is closed with procedures or 

4 ultimately with the site profiles, it should 

5 have a link back that says this is now closed 

6 according to the procedures database or the 

7 site profile database.

8 The only thing I will mention is 

9 that we haven't been given a cap to start 

10 looking into doing the site profile databases.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

12 MS. BEHLING: Don Loomis is 

13 certainly in a position to do that and very 

14 capable. And now that we have these two 

15 systems set up, that should be a fairly quick 

16 thing to do.

17 MR. KATZ: So you are saying, 

18 Kathy, that he can fairly quickly set one up 

19 for a site profile work group?

20 MS. BEHLING: I would imagine so 

21 just based on what we have done. And I think 

22 the procedures work and the dose 
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1 reconstruction work is fairly complicated, and 

2 I think what we had to design in the dose --

3 or in the database is probably as 

4 sophisticated as it is going to get. And I 

5 think just doing the site profile shouldn't be 

6 -- it's not like we are delving into new 

7 territory here. I think for Don it should be 

8 a fairly quick process.

9 DR. MAURO: In terms of scale, for 

10 example, there are 133 procedures, each one 

11 has maybe ten findings.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

13 DR. MAURO: For the dose 

14 reconstruction there are 140 dose 

15 reconstructions done to date, each one may be 

16 five or ten.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, right.

18 DR. MAURO: The dose -- did -- the 

19 site profiles 28 and each one may be seven or 

20 eight or ten.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

22 DR. MAURO: Now, I mean, we're 
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1 talking about in terms of scale.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

3 DR. MAURO: We're not going to be 

4 -- it's not going to become like an avalanche.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, and that 

6 would make it one big database, but that's 

7 however you guys want to design that. I mean, 

8 different tabs for different site profiles.

9 DR. MAURO: Just loading the data.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

11 DR. MAURO: And getting it to

12 work --

13 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: -- is the hard part.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: So that's fairly 

16 easy.

17 DR. MAURO: Procedures.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Procedures.

19 DR. MAURO: And DRs.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

21 DR. MAURO: This is hard. We get 

22 that knocked and --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 MEMBER MUNN: I think so.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. We 

4 will look at that. If we need a technical 

5 call, fine, we can do that. But I think I 

6 tend to agree with John. If we have a similar 

7 starting point, let's load it and see how it 

8 starts working.

9 MR. KATZ: So are you building in 

10 an active link already for this?

11 DR. MAURO: For this one right 

12 here?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: That's follow14 back. The follow-back.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think we need 

16 it. I don't know.

17 MEMBER MUNN: For this?

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

19 DR. MAURO: Kathy, this is John. 

20 I suspect this link that we are talking about 

21 between the two, so that, for example, when an 

22 issue is closed on these procedures that 
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1 somehow there is a flag in the dose 

2 reconstruction that, yes, it has been closed. 

3 That sounds to be straightforward. It's 

4 something Don could take care of, but I hate 

5 to put words into Don's mouth.

6 This is certainly worth looking --

7 if you could check with Don or whatever to see 

8 what would be involved on that flag?

9 MS. BEHLING: I will do that. And 

10 as I indicated, I envision that already being 

11 built in and Don and I have talked about that. 

12 So I would assume that that type of thing is 

13 already there, since we do have these two 

14 databases.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. And 

16 like you said, Kathy, it would be something 

17 that flagged, but we can --

18 MS. BEHLING: Yes, I'll confirm.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Be some type of 

20 flag that something was closed out on the 

21 other.

22 DR. MAURO: On the other end.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. It wouldn't 

2 automatically close out the one in this one.

3 MS. BEHLING: Right. Well, it can 

4 notify.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Alert.

6 DR. MAURO: Then you judge -- at 

7 that point then you make a judgment.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Then you make a 

9 judgment, right, whether you have to look at 

10 the case further or whether it is --

11 DR. MAURO: Right.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes. Okay. 

13 We will move ahead on that then. I'm on 104. 

14 I have this as being closed, basically, all 

15 the findings, but there are several of them 

16 that fall into those white paper-status 

17 generic responses for ingestion, resuspension. 

18 I think those are still hanging out there, 

19 right, to do.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: My recollection is 

21 they are still out there, in terms of an 

22 actual paper product.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, any --

2 because we are getting a lot of those. 

3 DR. MAURO: Yes.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Any sense of where 

5 that -- that time frame?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I would have to go 

7 find out from Jim.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's on Jim's 

9 stack of --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

12 DR. MAURO: If it's any 

13 consolation, in all the dose reconstructions 

14 that I looked at where I brought that issue 

15 up, usually with AWE is a lot of that.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: Residual period and in 

18 the resuspension and the ingestion. Those 

19 always contribute to a very, very small 

20 portion.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

22 DR. MAURO: Now, so I mean, it's 
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1 good that we get it cleared up.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 DR. MAURO: It's been around for a 

4 long time, but, at the same time, it really --

5 in none of the cases I can remember was it 

6 something --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Flipped.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes, it's going to 

9 flip anything.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's probably 

11 unlikely.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And in fact --

13 DR. MAURO: But it's been hanging 

14 out there a while.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: -- the 

16 resuspension issue is in OTIB-something.

17 DR. MAURO: Nine. Unless you have 

18 the new one.

19 MEMBER MUNN: OTIB-53 is in the 

20 final review.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: No, there is --

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's a separate 
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1 nine.

2 DR. MAURO: That's separate, 

3 that's a different thing.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: We just talked 

5 about resuspension in one of the --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean, a 

7 recurrent --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: The discussion 

9 going on is down.

10 MR. MAURO: Yes, it's everywhere. 

It's everywhere and it's always 10-6 11 . And we 

12 always come back and say that

13 is --

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: But Dow is the 

15 first place we have seen a fairly specific 

16 response, right? 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: There is -- I 

18 think the debate is farthest along in Dow.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Because it --

21 DR. MAURO: Dow two.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: -- relates to the 
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1 residual period.

2 DR. MAURO: Absolutely.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: The thorium 

4 residual period at Dow.

5 DR. MAURO: Absolutely.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And the discussion 

7 I think is farthest along there. So and 

8 that's part of Dow residual was that -- I 

9 can't remember the TIB number, but I believe 

10 there is an OTIB.

11 DR. MAURO: Seventy.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Is it 70 that 

13 talks about resuspension? And is a more 

14 formalization, a more formalized setting-out 

15 of what has been stated in some of these site 

16 profiles. So you know, it's farthest along 

17 there and maybe that discussion will end up, 

18 you know, at the end of the discussion.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: That might be on 

20 the final document.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Maybe the 

22 discussion there may even have the final. We 
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1 would hope that we would have one solution to 

2 it.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: As opposed to 

5 multiple solutions to a question.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And then that 

8 could be passed on through.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Moving on to 

10 105.1, I have that NIOSH agrees and the case 

11 will be reevaluated. Is this -- oh, this is a 

12 DCF thing.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Which number are 

14 you at?

15 DR. MAURO: One oh five point one.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: One of five point 

17 one, yes. It's a PER review, I think.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Reevaluated under 

20 PER, right?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: This is -- this 

22 used min/max in the tool. And from the broad 
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1 min/max, not the 18 min/max. And that has 

2 been changed and, I believe, all these cases 

3 have been reconsidered.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. That's 

5 right. And that's where it starts. So maybe 

6 it has already been reevaluated.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: But I could take a 

10 look.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: And for these PER 

12 cases, I think, this is a good example of what 

13 you are saying that we may not want to relook 

14 at all these cases, but we may want to sample 

15 some of them.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, sample.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: We had fun with 

18 those before, so if we show, reevaluated under 

19 PER review, that could be a reason. You know, 

20 once we find out it has been reevaluated, then 

21 we would -- we could sample from those just --

22 or you know, yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Do them all, but 

3 unlikely. I think we would want a sample from 

4 some, you know.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: TIB-49 comes up --

7 I mean, Super S I see a lot of them that are 

8 reevaluated for Super S.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: There were a lot.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: There were a ton.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

13 MR. SIEBERT: So 105.1 is one that 

14 is being returned to us because it is Super S?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: It is also Super 

16 S.

17 MR. SIEBERT: Because it's got 

18 that, too.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes. So 

20 okay. But I think that covers 105.

21 MEMBER MUNN: All of them?

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think so, yes.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: And before we go 

2 there --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MEMBER MUNN: -- I stuck my nose 

5 earlier into 104.7, asking about OTIB-53 being 

6 on final review and we said no, that what we 

7 were talking about is --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, yes.

9 MEMBER MUNN: But are we done with 

10 53 yet?

11 MR. HINNEFELD: It took 53s review 

12 a bit longer than anticipated.

13 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. So it's still 

14 there.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: There is still 

16 discussion about the 53 and its utility, you 

17 know, how useful is this really going to be as 

18 it's put together. It's recycled uranium.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Non-uranium 

21 elements and recycled uranium.

22 MEMBER MUNN: I'm trying to find a 
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1 defensible reason to close any one of these.

2 DR. MAURO: Just as a quick aside 

3 on the recycled uranium issue, I know that 

4 they like came up on a number of occasions. 

5 Whenever we look at Fernald, you go with 100 

6 parts per billion as being a default only.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: And then when you go 

9 with the AWE's generic approach adopted in the 

10 TBD-6000, you go with 10. And we understand 

11 the reason now. In this new Ru, is there --

12 are you stretching that story further? Is 

13 there more to the story? Is that basically 

14 where you are coming out?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know what 

16 the numbers are, to be honest, in terms of 

17 what the value is, but it's supposed to rely--

18 it's supposed to provide more content support 

19 for the numbers selected. And I don't -- and 

20 I think the numbers selected may go from, you 

21 know, site profile to site profile.

22 DR. MAURO: Oh, so you might 
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1 change?

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. It may not be 

3 universal or it may universally apply. I just 

4 am not that familiar with this.

5 MR. SIEBERT: Our understanding is 

6 going to be that if you have site profile 

7 numbers, those are what are --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Those are what are 

9 used.

10 MR. SIEBERT: -- used.

11 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: If you don't have 

13 that, then you go back and --

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: So in this case, 

15 Superior Steel, I don't think you have a site 

16 profile, do you or do you?

17 MR. HINNEFELD: There is a 

18 Superior Steel.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, there is?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I remember doing 

21 it.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: So that was the 
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1 question on this one. I'm glad you saw that 

2 one. I missed that publication. Is this a --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Is this a TIB-53 

4 question or is this more of a site profile 

5 question?

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think it's more 

7 a site profile question, if it's Superior 

8 Steel.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then it came 

10 down to that mini site profile review kind of 

11 event. And this and that. I mean, I don't --

12 DR. MAURO: So we didn't do -- I 

13 mean --

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: You didn't really 

15 do it on Superior. We just started that 

16 later, right? I think, yes.

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, keep in mind that 

18 the mini site profile or AWEs were limited to 

19 Huntington, Hawshaw and Bridgeport Brass.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's right.

21 DR. MAURO: Now, any others are 

22 simply an artifact of the fact that we had a 
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1 review for the case, like Superior Steel--

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 DR. MAURO: -- and others did not 

4 really get the treatment that we're getting at 

5 Hawshaw, for example. There's actually three 

6 stand-alone, you know, 30-page --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

8 DR. MAURO: -- attached to the 

9 eighth set. In the back of the eighth set you 

10 will see an appendix where we reviewed them, 

11 but we didn't reuse Superior Steel like that.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: So I guess that's 

13 the question in 104.7, I'm looking to see if I 

14 have other notes in here.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: So then this 

16 comment really would be a 53. This would 

17 relate to the site profile.

18 DR. MAURO: Right.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, my note like 

20 yours, Wanda, said TIB-53 last time, but I 

21 made a mistake on that. It's really --

22 MR. SIEBERT: Well, I don't think 
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1 it's a mistake. I think it's the thought 

2 process from 53 has changed as to what we are 

3 going to use it for.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

5 MR. SIEBERT: And we may need to 

6 determine does 53 have an applicability here?

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. So 

8 what is the -- it's really handled, it has got 

9 separate numbers in the site profile?

10 MR. SIEBERT: Right. The site 

11 profile has plutonium and neptunium numbers.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: And let's refresh 

13 the discussion on that, John, if we can.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: The finding is 

15 that where did you get the number?

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, I can help out a 

18 bit here.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 DR. MAURO: Most of the AWEs I did 

21 and very well from when I come across recycled 

22 uranium, if you don't give a rationale to why 
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1 you picked a given parts per billion with 

2 uranium or neptunium, I would say, please 

3 explain.

4 Now, my experience is when you did 

5 explain, when you, for example, can in after 

6 with the 10 part per billion number, I think, 

7 on one site and then I was able to research 

8 that, you find out that that is probably not a 

9 bad number. And -- but when you don't say 

10 anything about it, I think, there is a -- the 

11 onus -- it may turn out simply to be make 

12 reference to, well, if 53 is ready, great, or 

13 make reference to some other rationale section 

14 that you have had in another, other dockets.

15 Because I believe there is a 

16 general guideline that DOE used. Anything 

17 leaving Fernald that was going to be -- that 

18 was going to go somewhere else as AWE for any 

19 kind of special metal processing, for example, 

20 there was a tech spec saying it could not be 

21 more than 10 parts per billion.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: That was most of 
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1 the theory complex.

2 DR. MAURO: Right, right. But 

3 Fernald was special, because you did handle 

4 and we just went through this on a Fernald 

5 Work Group.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: And stuff came in 

8 pretty high.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Some stuff, yes.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: From Paducah, I 

12 mean.

13 DR. MAURO: From Paducah.

14 DR. MAURO: So again, this might 

15 be an easy one to fix.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: It sounds like 

17 probably where we were, my thought process 

18 when I referred to recycle the OTIB was that 

19 the research that they are going through to 

20 prepare the recycled TIB should inform us on 

21 whether, you know, it provides the support for 

22 these numbers. That should be what I -- how I 
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1 phrased it.

2 I don't think I phrased it that 

3 way. But that should have been what I said. 

4 And so hopefully that research has been 

5 accomplished. I'll just have to go back and 

6 find out from that research what kind of 

7 support do we have for these numbers and make 

8 that be like Superior Steel.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So we still 

10 -- we just need -- this is waiting a NIOSH 

11 response. I think I'm going to leave it like 

12 that rather than -- because I don't think it's 

13 going to be TIB-53 necessarily.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, yes.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: So NIOSH response 

16 on the basis for the numbers.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Basis for the 

19 concentrations. Okay. 

20 MEMBER MUNN: Response on what did 

21 you say?

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Basis for the 
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1 trans -- concentration.

2 DR. MAURO: Selected value.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

4 DR. MAURO: Found in the Superior 

5 Steel case, the number. There is no 

6 justification there.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: And it could be 

8 pretty straightforward like you said in there. 

9 Stuff came from here, we know that the tech 

10 spec was this and, you know, so hopefully that 

11 will be fairly easy to resolve. Okay. Thank 

12 you, Wanda, for -- I missed that one.

13 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, well.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Even though it 

15 didn't get closed, I didn't want to lose it.

16 105 is the reevaluated one, right?

17 DR. MAURO: Yes.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: And that covers 

19 105 and 105.1, 105.2. 105.3 I think I have 

20 procedures modified. This is PROC-006. 

21 "NIOSH procedure is modified and case being 

22 reevaluated for other," you know --
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1 MR. SIEBERT: This is the over

2 two --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- reasons. 

4 Right. This is the --

5 MR. SIEBERT: Which is 

6 automatically rolled in.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. All right. 

8 105.4 has been revised, is my note.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: That is the DCF. 

10 That's the full range DCF.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. And again 

12 it is being reevaluated.

13 MEMBER MUNN: So it's still open 

14 like that because of the reevaluation?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, open only in 

16 the sense of the whole case, but, finally, 

17 itself I think is closed.

18 DR. MAURO: Finally it was closed.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then that's 

20 that question of the case is being 

21 reevaluated, but we may not go back and look 

22 at all these cases that were reevaluated, 
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1 based on PERs. When they say -- you know, 

2 because we have got -- we're going to have a 

3 lot of them and we made this sample from the 

4 ones, you know.

5 MEMBER MUNN: So as a procedural--

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know, this is 

7 difficult, because it's closed, but it is 

8 open.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: You have findings 

11 that are closed, but the entire case is being 

12 reworked. Right, I think that's what you are 

13 thinking of.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Well, yes, and I'm 

15 still looking for a way to close --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know.

17 MEMBER MUNN: -- every single one 

18 of these items and leave others open --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

20 MEMBER MUNN: -- on that specific 

21 -- on that group of findings. It just seems 

22 cumbersome for us to continue to look at 
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1 materials that we know is essentially closed, 

2 especially if the major issue is still being 

3 tracked by one of the other open issues under 

4 that same number.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I wonder if 

6 we need to -- I've got to think about this. I 

7 was just wondering if we need to have 

8 something like 105 and then 105.1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 

9 6, 7, whatever, but 105 says the case is being 

10 reevaluated, you know. And that holds our 

11 place in the database. Then the separate 

12 findings, you know -- I don't know.

13 DR. MAURO: What triggers, I mean, 

14 a PER and the need to go back to a case? 

15 That's one thing. But then when you go into 

16 case, they can believe it was never -- it's 

17 not even a PER. I mean, we still have -- for 

18 example, I see there are some medical issues.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 DR. MAURO: Why did you use that 

21 organ instead of this organ? Well, that's not 

22 going to -- you know, now, the degree to 
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1 assess the PER is great. But that's not going 

2 to trigger the PER. There is usually a PER --

3 in other words, as I understand the PER --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 DR. MAURO: -- there is a 

6 particular issue that triggers the PER. When 

7 you go back and do the case under the PER, you 

8 pick up everything else that goes with it.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: And that's always a 

11 convenience.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

13 DR. MAURO: But that doesn't mean 

14 you've got to catch this one, because you may 

15 not consider this to be an issue.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: I agree, yes.

17 DR. MAURO: In other words, it's 

18 medical. You may look at it and say well, 

19 that's -- you know, we don't -- you know, so I 

20 think that unfortunately the fact that a given 

21 case is undergoing PER redo it -- somehow you 

22 would like to capture that in the database.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

2 DR. MAURO: But that doesn't mean 

3 any particular issue is closed. You see what 

4 I'm getting at?

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: Because it may have 

7 nothing to do with the PER.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, yes. But if 

9 the particular issue is closed --

10 DR. MAURO: If it's closed, it's

11 closed. Yes, it should be closed.

12 MEMBER MUNN: But as long as we 

13 have a case like this one where it is still 

14 being reevaluated, then we --

15 DR. MAURO: It's closed.

16 MEMBER MUNN: -- essentially 

17 cannot close any --

18 DR. MAURO: Well, you can't close 

19 it.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

21 DR. MAURO: Yes.

22 MEMBER MUNN: -- more of the 
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1 items.

2 DR. MAURO: I was going the other 

3 way.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, I don't 

7 think it's a problem, because, you know, 

8 eventually, we're going to close a whole lot 

9 of them all at once. I mean, I don't think 

10 it's that big a deal, right?

11 DR. MAURO: I mean in a way you 

12 could say okay, let's say it turns out a loss 

13 to the system. We close out all the issues, 

14 let's say there are dozens and dozens of cases 

15 where we closed out all the issues, except 

16 they may still be active under the PER, that's 

17 all that's left. That is once the PER issue 

18 is closed and resolved to the satisfaction of 

19 the PER review process, doesn't that 

20 automatically rip right through all the ones 

21 that are still alive?

22 Because we have closed the -- what 
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1 I'm trying to say is if you have a whole bunch 

2 of real cases that have been closed, the case 

3 -- some of the issues have been closed. And 

4 the only thing -- the reason why they are 

5 remaining open is because of the PER. All 

6 right?

7 Then once the PER is closed, in 

8 theory, this whole thing should -- they should 

9 all be closed.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: No. They should 

11 all be flagged.

12 DR. MAURO: Flagged. No, I'm 

13 sorry.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, yes.

15 DR. MAURO: They should all be 

16 flagged that they should, in theory, be 

17 closed.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

19 DR. MAURO: But just take a look 

20 and make sure.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, yes. And 

22 then that's what I was saying, taking a look 
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1 and making sure. It may not be looking at 

2 every single case. I mean, I don't think we 

3 want to do that, but look at some sampling of 

4 them.

5 MEMBER CLAWSON: I don't think, 

6 you know, where we got like the faster/slower, 

7 you know, some of these ones that we had a lot 

8 of big ones, like the sampling ones, but 

9 something that has been kind of bothering me 

10 as we go through here is the exact same thing, 

11 how do we finally finalize?

12 You know, we can do one that is 

13 like procedure. We've got a few oddball ones 

14 out there. And how do we track these and make 

15 sure that --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, yes, those got 

17 to be closed individually. I mean, I'm 

18 thinking we're talking like the DCF, like the 

19 LOD over 2, like the Super S, those we are 

20 going to have. You know, lots of cases fall 

21 into those. And those are the ones I would 

22 say I don't know that we need to necessarily 
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1 do 100 percent redos, you know.

2 But the other ones, we have to 

3 track individually, if we can, yes.

4 MEMBER CLAWSON: And I am just 

5 wondering --

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: There's no way to 

7 get around that, I don't think.

8 MEMBER CLAWSON: I am just 

9 wondering how we are going to fit this in to 

10 this matrix.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I think the 

12 one mechanism is if we defer to certain 

13 procedures or whatever, then it goes to 

14 Wanda's group, but when they complete their 

15 work, we will get -- it will red flag the 

16 system and the other database, the other table 

17 saying it has been closed out in the 

18 Procedure's Group, you know. And then we can 

19 relook at it. We don't, you know --

20 DR. MAURO: Remember the PER on 

21 the -- because PERs are done on the 

22 Procedure's Group. And remember what they 
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1 really do. They really say okay, they really 

2 try to answer two questions. One, has NIOSH 

3 instituted a process where it has identified 

4 all of the cases that theoretically could have 

5 been impacted?

6 Second is the fix, that is the --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Reasonable.

8 DR. MAURO: -- fixed, 

9 scientifically sound and reasonable that it 

10 has been adopted. Now, all we then do, the 

11 last step in our process, is to randomly 

12 select three. In fact, the Board randomly 

13 selects three cases to say okay, almost like 

14 proofing principles. Yes, in fact, just what 

15 they said they did. The PER was, in fact, 

16 done in these three cases.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

18 DR. MAURO: That serves as sort of 

19 a prima facie that yes, in fact, it did work 

20 and it was implemented.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

22 DR. MAURO: Now, what I'm hearing 
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1 is there may be dozens of others.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, then I can 

3 tell you what I was thinking anyway is --

4 because I can remember some of these. I think 

5 Savannah River, there were a couple that were 

6 reported on in 47, 48 percent. So when that 

7 note comes back from Wanda's group that this 

8 Super S thing has been reviewed and completed, 

9 you know, it's going to be tricky, because 

10 several of them have several PERs, too. So we 

11 may have to wait for all, several PERs to be 

12 closed.

13 But once they are all closed for a 

14 certain case and we've got a case that 

15 previously was like 48 percent and now it 

16 turns out to be 47 percent or whatever, we may 

17 want to -- you know, we may want to take 

18 another look at that one. If we had a case 

19 that was 15 percent say, it might not be as 

20 important to reevaluate that if you are 

21 satisfied on Procedure's Group.

22 You know, so I think we would 
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1 sample from the Dow and if we had 50 cases, I 

2 don't know what the appropriate percentage is. 

3 We can talk about that more. I'm sure it's 

4 not 100 percent, in my mind anyway. I don't 

5 think we go back and look at 100 percent of 

6 them.

7 DR. MAURO: There are certain big 

8 ones.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: 10 percent maybe, 

10 you know.

11 DR. MAURO: There is high fired, 

12 which have, I don't know how many, hundreds.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: High fired has a 

14 lot.

15 DR. MAURO: Thousands.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Thousands, right. 

17 So we are not going to have construction work 

18 on the big ones. We're not going to open up 

19 every one, obviously, but I think the 

20 important ones to look at are going to be 

21 those borderline ones, because we have seen 

22 this already. And if they modify something on 
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1 the Super S, and if they were over favorable 

2 in other areas, they may go back and redo the 

3 specifications.

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, sure.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: So the whole thing 

6 could look very different than when we 

7 reviewed it.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: That's for sure.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: So I think we 

10 might have to take another look at some of 

11 those, you know.

12 DR. MAURO: Are you saying like 

13 have a -- I mean, if you want to standardize 

14 it, you would just say anything over 40 

15 percent would be looked at dramatically?

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: I haven't got that 

17 far in my thinking, but that's something to 

18 consider. We can, you know, look at some sort 

19 of screen cut off, you know. Yes. But I 

20 think that's the way it will work, you know, 

21 eventually.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll get there.
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1 DR. MAURO: Or it could be argued 

2 if the PER process -- if SC&A review the PER, 

3 pick randomly the three, they all scored well, 

4 solve it.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, but it's 

6 different on a case. Like I just tried to 

7 describe, John, the, you know, PERs could be 

8 all fine and according to the procedure that 

9 you reviewed, but when they adopted all those 

10 changes in the pre-PERs --

11 DR. MAURO: In combination.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: In combination for 

13 this one case, then they said whoa, we're over 

14 51. You know, it's like 53 percent. Well, 

15 wait a second, we gave them -- we were too 

16 generous in this other area, we sharpen our 

17 pencil as Jim used to say, and it goes down 

18 below.

19 So I think there is other 

20 considerations on the case level than on the--

21 you know what I mean?

22 DR. MAURO: Right.
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1 MR. KATZ: So the PER is just to 

2 prove the principle.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

4 MR. FARVER: You know, when you 

5 evaluate a case on whether a PER will have an 

6 effect on it, is that whether the PER will

7 raise the overall dose or raise the POC?

8 DR. MAURO: Well, always --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, that's a 

10 procedure's review question for you guys. 

11 When you review the PER, how do you do? 

12 What's your screening mechanism?

13 DR. MAURO: Well, your concern is

14 that when it comes to a real case where --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: You have

16 multiple --

17 DR. MAURO: -- the PERs play at 

18 the same time --

19 MR. FARVER: What I was getting at 

20 is if you have one -- if you look at a case 

21 like Super S, you say well, maybe Super S can 

22 apply to this person. So it would have no 
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1 affect on that case.

2 DR. MAURO: Right. That wouldn't 

3 even make it.

4 MR. FARVER: But maybe we have one 

5 with dose conversion practice. It would raise 

6 the dose a little bit, but maybe not enough. 

7 Maybe there is a third PER out there that will 

8 raise it a little bit more, but if we're just 

9 evaluating that PER, you can cut it and say 

10 well, that PER in itself won't have an effect 

11 on that case or won't raise it over 50 

12 percent.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MR. FARVER: Cumulatively, if you 

15 go back and work them all --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's a question 

17 we should be asking NIOSH in the PER review 

18 process, yes.

19 DR. MAURO: The fact that we have 

20 sophistication in asking these questions, 

21 we've come a long way. I mean, you know.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: The overlap didn't 

2 affect the PERs.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: This is the first time 

5 we've talked about it.

6 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, it is.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, we've 

8 talked about this and --

9 DR. MAURO: Sometime beforehand.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: -- I think so. I 

11 mean, how do we know when a case is reworked? 

12 That, yes, we took, you know, everything --

13 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: You asked me how 

15 many cases that were reworked, that have been 

16 reviewed, have been reworked through the PER 

17 and are all the way back through the system.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And there are two 

20 and I sent them.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, you sent 

22 those. You emailed those, right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. So there are 

2 two cases out there that have been all the way 

3 through the system, so only at --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: That were on our 

5 initial list of 140 cases.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. You know, 

7 that isn't the point, when these should be 

8 revisited that are available to revisit them.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: And we also talked 

11 about --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: But Doug is asking 

13 a question how you decide cases need to be --

14 yes, what cases need PER review, right.

15 MR. FARVER: Is it based on a 

16 single PER or is it based on the cumulative 

17 effect of if there is multiple PERs?

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: What triggers a 

19 case to be reevaluated based on PERs?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh --

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Because you have 

22 this multiple -- this question of multiple 
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1 PERs.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: The PER defines 

3 its universe that these are the cases that 

4 could be affected upwards by this.

5 MR. FARVER: Yes, well, we 

6 reviewed --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Any cases that 

8 could be affected upward?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

10 MR. FARVER: Yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: We look at every 

13 one.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

15 MR. HINNEFELD: And we confirm --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: That answers that 

17 question.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, yes.

19 DR. MAURO: Rock solid. We review

20 the thoracic effect. I'm sure Hodges --

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: That answers that 

22 question. 
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1 DR. MAURO: And one of the areas 

2 where we found rock solid was doing that. You 

3 know, you exhaustively checked to make sure 

4 that this case had all -- been affected.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: And this was the 

7 thoracic lymphoma.

8 MR. FARVER: For any case that can 

9 be raised upward gets reworked.

10 DR. MAURO: I think denial.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

12 DR. MAURO: Any denial.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Any denial.

14 DR. MAURO: Any denial couldn't be 

15 affected. And all TIB -- my understanding is 

16 all PERs will be denied, because they could 

17 affect it upward, otherwise, it wouldn't be a 

18 PER.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. If the 

20 change reflects -- would require --

21 DR. MAURO: So by definition --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: -- we don't do a 
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1 PER.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: A change that puts 

4 -- raises the dose or raises the dose even for 

5 some. The ones that are potentially affected 

6 are the universe and they are all considered. 

7 Some of them -- and they are all -- there 

8 have been a number of evolutions of the PER 

9 process and that's based on discussion between 

10 us and DOL, because there are multiple things 

11 that weigh into doing this as well as you can.

12 One of which is your 

13 communications with the claimants and so on 

14 and so forth and there is a lot involved and 

15 this is fairly complicated with that aspect of 

16 reviewing a case. And so there have been a 

17 series of, you know, revisions to the PER 

18 process.

19 For about the past year, we have 

20 not initiated any new ones and the -- we know 

21 that there are going to be some, because based 

22 on site profile review and things like that. 
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1 We know there are going to be technical 

2 changes that are going to affect cases that 

3 were already done.

4 Those type of changes aren't 

5 finally published yet and so when we finally 

6 publish them, that's when we are going to have 

7 to come to grips with DOL about okay, we're 

8 going to do these the same way we did, because 

9 we got some feedback and we got a lot of 

10 information and it's a very difficult 

11 coordination with DOL to deal with the claim 

12 in this fashion.

13 So based on that, we have still 

14 some discussions to be made before we would 

15 resume. I think both of our agencies would 

16 want to have a conversation about what is the 

17 best way, based on all of the feedback we have 

18 received so far, that we want to deal with 

19 cases that would be in this.

20 None of them will get left out. 

21 They will all be reconsidered in the 

22 measurement and all the changes will be 
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1 considered in every one of those cases. But 

2 the -- it may not be that every single one 

3 gets reworked, which was what was done most 

4 recently. Okay. 

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. Back 

6 to the matrix. We're going to get through 

7 this before the break, I know.

8 DR. MAURO: We keep going into 

9 this deeper.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, no, I know. I 

11 know. 105.5, I have that NIOSH agrees with 

12 the finding on this medical dose question.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, yes, it was 

14 as if --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: It kind of goes 

17 away. It is sort of self-closing though, 

18 because if you read the entire response, the 

19 site profile, the values in the site profile 

20 have been revised downward based on more 

21 complete research.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So even though 

2 given the guidance in place when the dose 

3 reconstruction was done, the dose was 

4 underestimated. If it were done by today's 

5 guidance, it was still overestimated.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I said NIOSH 

7 reviews the finding, although the value 

8 applied was over.

9 MR. FARVER: And this is what we 

10 could see on these cases that are evaluated on 

11 PERs. So the overall dose will go down, some 

12 parts of it.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Very often, very 

14 often. A lot of the early plutoniums were 

15 done with sort of intentional efficiency 

16 overestimates.

17 MR. FARVER: Yes.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: So then 105.6 I 

19 also have SC&A agrees and no further action. 

20 106?

21 MEMBER MUNN: You are reading 

22 statements that I don't have in my --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Yes, that's 

2 why I'm going through them one by one.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Just to make sure, 

5 yes. I had agreement on 105.6, but -- with 

6 SC&A.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. So what you 

8 said, I was puzzling over what I have under 

9 105.5 as opposed to what you were saying. You 

10 are saying, essentially, 105.5 is --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Is closed.

12 MEMBER MUNN: -- done.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes. 105.6 

14 also I have closed. I think what happened 

15 here is I think Stu or NIOSH provided more of 

16 the IMBA runs and, Doug, I think you looked at 

17 them and then you were comfortable with that.

18 MR. FARVER: Correct.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: So that closed it 

20 out.

21 MEMBER MUNN: And the same is true 

22 then about 6?
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's 105.6, 

2 that's the one I was just talking about, yes.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then 106.1 --

5 MEMBER MUNN: Already closed.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's already --

7 for 106.1, I have NIOSH agrees, no affect on 

8 the case. It's already compensable. Right.

9 MR. FARVER: Yes, this is the 

10 standard range of dose conversion factors.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: And I have the 

12 same thing for 106.2/106.3.

13 MR. FARVER: Yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: 106.4, I'm looking 

15 through two different versions of my matrix 

16 here. I don't have -- anybody have a status 

17 for that one?

18 MR. FARVER: This is the fission 

19 products, which would be OTIB-54.

20 DR. MAURO: Fission products, 

21 OTIB-54, yes.

22 MR. FARVER: No, no, no.
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1 DR. MAURO: 54 is the fission 

2 product.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, this was done 

4 before, but --

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: -- fission 

7 products should instruct --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Should count.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: -- whether this 

10 was sufficient or not.

11 MR. FARVER: This is one of our 

12 standard findings from the Savannah River 

13 case.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

15 MR. FARVER: Probably.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: But I don't have a 

17 resolution. Did you?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it's a 

19 compensable case.

20 MR. FARVER: It's a comp case.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, it's 

22 compensable.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So I mean, these 

2 are kind of closable.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes, yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: And this finding 

5 is not going to get lost, because it's 

6 elsewhere.

7 MR. FARVER: It's many times.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

9 MR. FARVER: It comes up in the 

10 eighth set many times.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: But is it referred 

12 to the Procedure's Group?

13 MR. FARVER: I don't know that it 

14 has ever been closed.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Procedure's Group 

16 is dealing with that, isn't it?

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: 54?

18 DR. MAURO: It's on the Arjun, 

19 yes. And we have basically, I remember --

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, but this is 

21 before TIB-54, right?

22 DR. MAURO: This is, yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: But the issue --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: TIB-54 should 

3 provide the support for this finding in other 

4 contexts. I really think since this is a 

5 compensable case, it can be closed.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, yes. In 

7 this one. In other locations, you would want 

8 to address it and what the -- the thought that 

9 somebody said earlier, the technical research 

10 and discussion to address --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: But for something 

12 to be closed, we have to have SC&A and NIOSH 

13 agreeing and you can't agree if it is being 

14 transferred to -- you know, what I mean?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I think we 

16 could both agree that this can be closed, 

17 because it's a compensable case.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, yes.

19 MR. FARVER: Because I mean --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean you can 

21 keep open where -- I don't understand how you 

22 are going to close things. I think you guys 
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1 are devising a system that is going to keep 

2 findings open for a very long period of time.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: When, in fact, you 

5 could adopt different terminology, rather than 

6 keep these findings open.

7 MR. FARVER: This issue is not to 

8 press this case.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: You keep open for 

10 a long, long time and they are going to be, 

11 essentially, at bed and in rest, but they 

12 won't be closed, based on what you are 

13 adopting.

14 MEMBER MUNN: I think it's closed.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. We just 

16 closed three in a row. I don't know what 

17 you're getting at.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I was talking 

19 about what you were talking about earlier.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Anyway --

21 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: And keeping all 
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1 these things open, keeping all these findings 

2 open, because this case hasn't been reworked 

3 yet. Okay?

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: All these 

6 technical questions raised by this --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: -- raised by these 

9 findings, these are all addressed. These are 

10 all answered. The workbooks are changed.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: All that is done.

13 DR. MAURO: And this case is not 

14 going to be revisited, because it has been 

15 compensated.

16 MEMBER MUNN: No.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I agree, I agree. 

18 But what I'm saying is you are going to be 

19 carrying a status other than closed on each 

20 one of these findings on a case that you think 

21 you might want to revisit, because it was 

22 reworked on a PER. Not this one, but one that 
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1 was.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: You're going to 

4 carry all these findings as open when, in 

5 fact, they are completely to bed and the only 

6 thing that has to be done is to see did this 

7 case get redone correctly when a whole raft of 

8 changes were made on it when it was done --

9 when it was redone on a PER.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

11 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: You are keeping 

13 things -- you are designing a system that is 

14 going to keep these things open for a very, 

15 very long period of time when the technical 

16 issue that gave rise to the findings is put to 

17 bed. That's what I'm saying.

18 MEMBER MUNN: And that was my --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: It's your system.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think if we 

21 would --

22 DR. MAURO: I would like to repair 
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1 this a little bit. It's really one of how 

2 much proof is sufficient to satisfy the work 

3 open, that's really what we're talking about. 

4 If we go through -- let's say a case was 

5 denied. And it was -- and it triggered -- and 

6 it is part of the PER umbrella, okay. We go 

7 through the case and we address all the 

8 issues, other than the ones -- the one that is 

9 the PER issue.

10 Let's say it turns out to be a 

11 high fire plutonium. Well, it turns out to be 

12 thoracic lymphoma. But everything else 

13 dealing with x-rays, dealing with LOD over 2, 

14 whatever it is, and they have also been part 

15 and parcel, we have closed. So the only 

16 reason this thing remains open is because 

17 there are certain findings in that case that 

18 are part of a PER process that -- and that has 

19 been implemented or is being implemented, 

20 etcetera.

21 Now, so that's where we are in 

22 time. Now, we go through the PER. And what's 
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1 a perfect example would be the thoracic 

2 lymphoma. We went through that PER. We found 

3 favorably regarding the PER. Of course, I 

4 don't think it has been closed out by the work 

5 group yet. I think it is still alive. But 

6 let's --

7 MEMBER MUNN: The PERs are 

8 hanging.

9 DR. MAURO: Yes. Well, let's go 

10 through the thought process. Okay, fine. The 

11 end -- the process is finished, including the 

12 three cases that are proof of principle. And 

13 if the Procedure's Group agrees yes, we 

14 believe this PER, it's issues, all issues 

15 closed, we'll close them both.

16 Now, we have this case. The only 

17 thing we know that is still alive in this case 

18 that is still keeping it open is the fact that 

19 we're waiting to hear from the PER group 

20 whether or not it has been satisfactory 

21 closed.

22 Now, I would argue that's the 
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1 purpose of the three cases, which is the proof 

2 in principle, and not force us to go back and 

3 do 3,000 additional -- check every single one 

4 of those thousands of thoracic lymphomas 

5 and/or to go back and keep those open until we 

6 look at every one of them.

7 Now, I'm taking what I would, I 

8 guess, consider to be one way of looking at 

9 it. That's the reason we do the proof of 

10 principle.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: But you are 

12 arguing the extremes, too. I mean --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Actually, John --

14 DR. MAURO: I'm sort of supporting 

15 this.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: You are describing 

17 the situation that I'm worried about.

18 DR. MAURO: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, in a 

20 certain sense, because like I said, this is 

21 your guy's system and you do what you want, 

22 you know.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm just offering 

3 this. By the system you have described, that 

4 means that for any of these findings that we 

5 have a PER on --

6 DR. MAURO: They are open for a 

7 long time.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: -- they are open 

9 for a long time, because how long will it take 

10 the -- because it won't close until the 

11 Procedure's Working Group reviews the specific 

12 PER.

13 DR. MAURO: Closes it and then 

14 comes back here again.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. And then 

16 closes it. And there have been so far 30 

17 PERs. Now, about 10 or 12 of those don't 

18 count, because they were early on and really 

19 done far differently. But you are probably 

20 talking about 15 or more PERs that were, you 

21 know, done in this most recent round.

22 DR. MAURO: And the number of 
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1 cases --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Were done in this 

3 fashion.

4 DR. MAURO: -- affected are 

5 thousands.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Thousands. But 

7 that's not where I was going.

8 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Because the 

10 workload that I'm looking at is the 

11 Procedure's Working Group, one by one, looking 

12 at every one of those PERs --

13 DR. MAURO: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: -- and when they 

15 have done -- when you have done the PER review 

16 in the three cases and said okay, these are 

17 good and going back and closing it, that's the 

18 long process.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: To close these. 

22 If that's what you want to do --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, what's the 

2 alternative?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: The alternative is 

4 not to --

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Close them without 

6 reviewing them?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: -- treat the 

8 finding as a finding. When the technical 

9 change that fixes the finding has been made, 

10 the finding is closed.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: But if you haven't 

12 reviewed the technical change, how do you know 

13 it's closed until you have agreed on the 

14 change?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, most --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Just to say 

17 something is being changed --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, in the case 

19 of the -- the case of what we were just 

20 talking about, the Savannah River Tool and the

21 DCF range, it's done. It's fixed. It's 

22 changed. They have seen the new version.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Exactly. I mean, 

2 I don't even know how we get to this argument.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, no. What we 

4 just said. We said NIOSH agrees no effect on 

5 case.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: But your finding 

7 is still like 105, you're saying, we're going 

8 to keep these open, because we don't know how 

9 to --

10 DR. MAURO: The only reason I 

11 brought this up. Does this close?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, for 105 it 

13 wasn't a compensable claim. It wasn't --

14 that's why.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's what I'm 

16 saying.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: So you keep them 

18 open.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, here is my 

21 point.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: You're keeping 

2 these findings open.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Even though the 

5 technical changes were made, they have seen 

6 the new workbook. They know the technical 

7 change. They know that finding has been 

8 finished. Okay? And so they know the finding 

9 has been finished, but still, the finding is 

10 open, because the case --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Because you're 

12 waiting for the PER.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: -- hasn't been 

14 confirmed to your satisfaction. To me, it's 

15 like another column. It's not a status column 

16 on the finding.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: It's -- or you 

19 keep track of the case. You don't keep track 

20 of every one of those things that are open.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, that's what 

22 I was saying. Should we have 105 --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I like the idea. 

2 And whether you call it 105 --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Maybe we can think 

4 about that, yes.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: -- or some other 

6 structure, what I'm saying is you are going to 

7 hold a lot of findings open when the technical 

8 change that gave rise to that finding has been 

9 corrected and we all agree it is corrected.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what I'm --

12 that's my --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, that was

14 my -- I guess I just don't get the idea.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, that's 

16 what I was trying to say before is maybe we 

17 need a 105 and then all the points and we can 

18 close a lot of the individual findings, but 

19 the case remains positively open for 

20 resampling over the PER.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: There is some 

22 done.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: We still have to 

2 worry about the case.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, right, 

4 right.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's what I'm 

6 thinking.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. We're in 

8 agreement there. I'm not sure that's --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: I didn't mean to 

10 get so energized about this. It's really 

11 against my style.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I thought we had 

13 been over that ground. I just wasn't sure I 

14 had the solution. Like I'm not sure 105 is 

15 the right way to do it in the database.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I'm not sure 

17 how to do it --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- exactly in the 

20 database. But it concerns me there is going 

21 to be a lot, you know.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, okay.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: And we are not --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I was 

3 confused because this one I'm -- I thought we 

4 were in agreement on this.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: You were going --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: I was thinking 

8 back to the --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm going back. 

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: And I will say 

12 that we are not particularly timely in closing 

13 all these findings. We have not in terms of 

14 doing our part.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: But I don't like a 

17 lot of open findings hanging out there. I 

18 would like to have them to be closed and say, 

19 okay, we are taking action in response to the 

20 review we are seeing from the Advisory Board 

21 and we're doing these things.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: And as long as 

2 these findings stay open like that, it doesn't 

3 look like we are even doing anything about 

4 what we are being advised.

5 DR. MAURO: It creates a false --

6 it's an optic that is a false optic.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: And the optics are 

9 that we have all of this stuff and when the 

10 reality of optics for all intents and purposes 

11 is it's closed. If there is some way in which 

12 you want to keep track of the fact that this 

13 is a particular one to be closed as a result 

14 of a PER process or whatever you want, that's 

15 fine. That's just a record keeping issue.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: But to allocate it to 

18 not -- to still being open is sort of unfair 

19 to you.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That's the way I 

21 feel about it.

22 DR. MAURO: And I agree.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: That's the way I 

2 feel about it.

3 DR. MAURO: At the same time, you 

4 want to make sure we know.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I absolutely 

6 understand making sure that the --

7 DR. MAURO: It creates another 

8 problem though, another problem.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: John, you keep 

10 thinking of problems.

11 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry. If there's 

12 no problems, there's no challenge for Wanda. 

13 I'm not being -- I'm trying to think of 

14 solutions to tell you the truth.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you, ladies 

16 and gentlemen.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: What's one more, 

18 yes, what's one more.

19 DR. MAURO: And the challenge 

20 really is and it's unfortunate, the truth of 

21 the matter is it was never the intention on 

22 the part of the Procedure's Work Group 
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1 necessarily to have its contractor review each 

2 and every one of the PERs.

3 MEMBER MUNN: No.

4 DR. MAURO: Now, you are going to 

5 have to do that.

6 MEMBER MUNN: No, contraire.

7 DR. MAURO: But no, now we have 

8 just set up a system where that is going to 

9 have to happen.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Yes, pretty 

11 much, yes. Okay. Why don't we take a --

12 MEMBER MUNN: A break.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Can we take a 

14 short break?

15 MR. KATZ: Yes.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: 10 minutes.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: It seems like a 

19 good point and then we will work until lunch--

20 DR. MAURO: It does.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- or whatever.

22 MR. KATZ: 10 minutes, guys, 10 
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1 minutes.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. For 

3 folks on the phone then, just a couple minutes 

4 before 11:00, we will start back up.

5 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

6 matter went off the record at 10:45 a.m. and 

7 resumed at 11:01 a.m.)

8 MR. KATZ: We are back on. This 

9 is Ted Katz with the Subcommittee on Dose 

10 Reconstruction review. Folks on the phone, 

11 can you hear us?

12 MS. BEHLING: I can hear you.

13 MR. KATZ: Great, Kathy.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: One person.

15 MR. KATZ: Okay. 

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: There's a big 

17 crowd out there.

18 MS. BEHLING: Thank you.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: I've got to liven 

20 these meetings up, you know, bring some live 

21 entertainment or something. Okay. So after 

22 that little sidebar on -- that's all right. I 
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1 think where we stand on 106.4 then is that it 

2 is still open, but it's being deferred to this 

3 -- the Procedure's Group, TIB-54. TIB-54 is 

4 that the right one? 54, TIB-54 for fission 

5 product.

6 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, yes, that's the 

7 correct one.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: And understanding 

9 that this was done prior to TIB-54, but, as 

10 Stu said, the research around TIB-54 is how 

11 they kind of answered it, you know.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it is sort 

13 of, but, I mean, there is more to our 

14 response, I mean, about well, you know, we 

15 only got so far and we stopped and that's the 

16 claim.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: But this is sort 

19 of a part and parcel of that same finding that 

20 occurs in any other.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: In many others.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MEMBER MUNN: TIB-54 is done, 

3 isn't it?

4 DR. MAURO: The review?

5 MEMBER MUNN: Well --

6 DR. MAURO: Yes, the review is 

7 done --

8 MEMBER MUNN: -- yes.

9 DR. MAURO: -- and delivered.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

11 DR. MAURO: Right.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Have we discussed 

13 it on the work group? I can't remember.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: No.

15 DR. MAURO: No.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's in the third 

17 set, isn't it?

18 DR. MAURO: There are some issues.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh.

20 DR. MAURO: I mean, if it helps 

21 any, it's second order issues, not big issues.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, that's good.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: So this could be 

2 closed shortly, but, okay.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Well, not really 

4 closed.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Not closed. No, 

6 just transferred, right, for the meantime? 

7 And then 107.1, okay, this is one of those 

8 ones like, I think, 105.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: And we will have 

11 to work out a mechanism. I understand your 

12 concern about having every finding listed as 

13 redo case.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: But we have, it 

16 looks like, a lot of agreement on the 

17 individual findings, but the case is going to 

18 be a rework, and we will have to design a 

19 system in the database to maybe show that once 

20 and not 10 times.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Or whatever.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 107.4 we 

2 have --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I have that.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: -- some new 

5 information.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. I have SC&A 

7 to review 107.4.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: And you have new?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: The easiest way 

13 for me to distribute it would be to forward 

14 what I got on it.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So we are 

16 just getting that. You didn't send that 

17 before?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I didn't get it.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, you didn't get 

20 it.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I didn't have it 

22 until today.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Sorry.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it may not 

3 be very helpful to discuss this today.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I know. I 

5 know.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Since we haven't 

7 seen it before. But I will send it.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Why don't we just 

9 move ahead and just say not appropriate?

10 MR. SIEBERT: I did this one and I 

11 know Doug is going to have to look at it.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. NIOSH 

13 forwarding new info today. What's today's 

14 date? Okay. So I have that you just 

15 forwarded us information on that.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So I'm 

18 going to move -- while Stu is doing that, I'm 

19 just going to look at 107.5. I also have 

20 agreement. And 107.6, I have SC&A to review. 

21 Is that still --

22 MR. FARVER: Let me go down there. 
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1 107.6.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, no, no, you 

3 did give us the review on that. And I have my 

4 file note, 8/20/08, says, NIOSH agrees file 

5 should have been included. Was this just a 

6 matter of including the IMBA run?

7 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, this is where

8 we had to demonstrate that the environmental 

9 dose was less.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, okay.

11 MR. SIEBERT: In other words, if 

12 the dose --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

14 MR. SIEBERT: -- they don't 

15 include it, but you don't know if it's X 

16 millirem, unless you see the --

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. SC&A 

18 agrees with the technical aspects and NIOSH 

19 agrees they should have posted that work, too.

20 MR. FARVER: This falls under the 

21 question of what records should be included.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Included in the--
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1 yes.

2 MR. FARVER: So the overall 

3 question comes up every now and then.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. But it's 

5 closed on this one.

6 MR. FARVER: Correct.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

8 107.6 is closed. All right. Moving on. I've 

9 got some homework to rewrite this matrix, I'll 

10 tell you that. All right.

11 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, yes.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Now, 110, I think, 

13 we have some new stuff on. I've been falling 

14 down on the job. I apologize. Too many 

15 matrices going, you know. I could do it when 

16 it was one at a time.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: 110 is in the same 

19 thing I'm forwarding. 110.1.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So 110.1, 

21 NIOSH is forwarding new info now. 

22 MR. FARVER: So we're going to 
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1 keep 110.1 open?

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. SIEBERT: Actually, this is 

4 simple enough.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, is it?

6 MR. SIEBERT: This one when we 

7 were talking before --

8 MR. FARVER: This is the blanks 

9 and zeros.

10 MR. SIEBERT: Blanks and zeros, 

11 yes, that is in the dose reconstructor 

12 instructions is where you read it. It is 

13 written and we are going to be implementing it 

14 into the TBD. It just has not happened yet, 

15 since it is at Hanford.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: At Hanford there 

17 is a lot.

18 MR. SIEBERT: A lot to include.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: There are a lot of 

20 changes coming out.

21 MR. SIEBERT: A lot to include in 

22 the TBD. What Stu just sent you, H4 outlines 
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1 that and pulls the wording from the 

2 instructions that specify it.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- you have DR 

4 Guidelines?

5 MR. SIEBERT: Right.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: That specify this 

7 and you are going to roll them into the TBD?

8 MR. SIEBERT: Correct.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. I mean, 

10 that's probably fine. You want to take one 

11 final look at it?

12 MR. FARVER: I'll look at it, but 

13 why don't we mark this one as closed and get 

14 it off the books?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Well, all 

16 right. I mean, it's not like we are down to 

17 one finding to be closed.

18 MR. FARVER: Well --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: There's still a 

20 couple remaining. All right. So I'm going to 

21 put NIOSH is adopting language from DR 

22 Guidelines to be included in TBD.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: I think that NIOSH 

2 was incorporating DR Guidelines in the TBD.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Incorporating, 

4 that's better, yes. Thank you.

5 MEMBER MUNN: And the previous 

6 note was that it was closed for our purposes 

7 on this case, but NIOSH is checking that to 

8 see if it's okay.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: There is Guideline 

10 1 in each. And then I'm going to put closed 

11 on that. And I think Stu just sent it right 

12 now, so if you see it, if you see it, Doug, 

13 and you see any concerns while we are talking, 

14 I can go back to that one. But I'm going to 

15 close it otherwise. Okay.

16 110.2 then. 

17 MEMBER MUNN: Seems closed to me.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: There has 

19 certainly been a lot of discussion about it.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, we have had a 

21 lot on this one, yes. But I do have closed at 

22 the end of the day here.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: We closed it last 

2 time.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: It looks like it 

6 was closed last time. What is the basis of 

7 the closure on this one? Did we reconcile 

8 whether this person should have been monitored 

9 for a new -- I think the question was the 

10 areas they were working in, right, this 

11 standard finding that we see once in a while?

12 MR. FARVER: Yes.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: And did we 

14 reconcile whether -- I mean, I'm not reading 

15 through all this, but 

16 MR. FARVER: Yes, it had to do 

17 with the individual's work location and 

18 whether they should have addressed this 

19 neutron dose and it went back and forth and it 

20 turns out that they did assess some kind of 

21 neutron-based dose.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I'm reading 
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1 the last part of your -- the last part of the 

2 resolution column says, while it may not be 

3 appropriate to assign the full missed neutron 

4 dose, we believe that he should be given the 

5 benefit of the doubt in accordance with, you 

6 know, these partial missed neutron dose.

7 MR. FARVER: Right. Then you 

8 would jump back to column three.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

10 MR. FARVER: Under August 20, 2008 

11 and then that was what they did.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, so they did 

13 that?

14 MR. FARVER: Yes.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

16 MR. FARVER: So it kind of jumps 

17 back to it.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Which was done, 

19 okay. Okay. All right.

20 MEMBER MUNN: That's 111.1?

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: So that is closed. 

22 And NIOSH is on partial missed neutron dose. 
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1 SC&A agrees. All right. 110.3, I have SC&A 

2 agreement on this and that it is closed.

3 MR. FARVER: Is this 110.3?

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. FARVER: For the fission 

6 product?

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Is that what it 

8 is?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Yes, yes. 

10 If think if you are -- are you reading off the 

August 20th 11 profile?

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I am.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Of Wanda of August 

20th 14 matrix? In the title it says updated by 

OCAS August 20th 15 .

16 Are you reading off that, Wanda?

17 MEMBER MUNN: No. I am reading 

18 off my notes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Your notes. I 

20 believe --

MEMBER MUNN: Of August 19th 21 . 

22 NIOSH agreed to forward the data, acceptable 
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1 to SC&A, no further action.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, no further 

3 action, right?

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes. That's 

6 what we --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: So it's closed.

8 DR. MAURO: This isn't one that is 

9 referred to the TIB. It is --

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: No.

11 DR. MAURO: -- because it was 

12 dealt with in the program already.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes. So it was 

15 unique.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes. So it's 

17 not the standard fission product.

18 DR. MAURO: This is not the 

19 standard fission product.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

21 right.

22 DR. MAURO: To be clear why we 
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1 didn't close the other one.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. So 

3 that's -- yes, that is no further action. 

4 Okay. I'm up to 111.2 What happened to 

5 111.1? 111.1 I have SC&A agreement on that.

6 MR. FARVER: Yes.

7 MEMBER MUNN: I agree.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. 111.2, I 

9 have NIOSH agrees to the purchase to modify -

10 - this is the organ selection thing, right?

11 MR. FARVER: Yes.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: 112.1, TIB-18 

13 review, procedures review is what I have. 

14 That's 112.1.

15 MR. SIEBERT: This is when 

16 compensable claims were used.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, so this is a 

18 compensable one.

19 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So still 

21 put TIB-18 review, but I think it is closed 

22 for this case, because it's a compensable one.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: It was -- I think 

2 this finding may have been about inappropriate 

3 selecting it to use.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: For our 

5 compensable, right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. We'll 

8 put closed. I mean, there is no further 

9 action on it.

10 MR. SIEBERT: Right, right.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: So yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that's 

13 what this one is about.

14 MR. SIEBERT: It is, .1 and .2 

15 we're all discussing. These are very 

16 conservative and internal dose.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: For?

18 MR. SIEBERT: For a compensable, 

19 yes.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, right. 

21 MR. FARVER: This was a special 

22 case.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 MR. FARVER: This was during the 

3 time period when you were asked to expedite 

4 some cases.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. Okay. So 

6 but it's closed. Yes, 112.2 is the same way, 

7 also closed. 113.1, this is a Y-12 case. The 

8 first one is NIOSH agrees and TIB-8 has been 

9 revised. And no effect on the case. And 

10 that's true for 113.2 as well, 113.3 is the 

11 organ selection thing, right? Oh, no for 

12 medical dose, yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it was a 

14 practice for a time like, to choose skin or 

15 something.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Non-compensable 

18 case, because it's a high dose in the table.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: And we have since 

21 told them they should knock that off.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: No further action.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I said NIOSH 

3 agrees the policy has been changed and that is 

4 closed. 113.4 is -- well, what do you guys 

5 have? I have --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Based on our 

7 response of 113.4, I think this is very 

8 similar to, you know, philosophically, 113.3. 

9 I believe the finding of -- I believe the 

10 findings spoke to the fact that you should not 

11 use the reactor non-uranium --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: -- facility for Y14 12. You should use the uranium non-reactor --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: -- facility. It's 

17 a different suite of radionuclides. It must be 

18 a TIB-2 intake.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: So it sounds like 

21 whether it was intentionally done as an 

22 impenetrable -- like using the skin or whether 
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1 it was just a faux pas, it still has, you 

2 know, the same.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: The same.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: We agree it should 

5 be closed.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: No further action, 

7 no effect on the case.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: So it's closed. 

10 Yes. Is that right, Doug? Are you --

11 MR. FARVER: I'm trying to catch 

12 up to you.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay, sorry. I 

14 saw a funny expression in your face. It 

15 didn't look like agreement.

16 MR. FARVER: Well, it is and it 

17 isn't. It is -- I agree that, yes, someone 

18 basically clicked the wrong button.

19 DR. MAURO: This is denial, based 

20 on the relative tool. Is that what you are 

21 referring to?

22 MR. FARVER: No, this is whether 
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1 to use the maximum exposure workbook.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, this is --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: But it is a non --

4 DR. MAURO: And you used OTIB 2 as 

5 maximizing approach of internal?

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Correct.

7 DR. MAURO: The only problem was 

8 which set of default set of radionuclides.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: And it doesn't go 

10 away. It doesn't mean that it's not still a 

11 finding. It means we closed it out. It is 

12 resolved, I mean.

13 MR. SIEBERT: Right. Because in 

14 the response we said we actually --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

16 MR. SIEBERT: -- what we assigned 

17 -- seven rem when it should have been three, 

18 basically.

19 MR. FARVER: Yes, and the only 

20 thing that concerns me about things like this 

21 is okay, but what's the corrective action to 

22 keep it from happening again?
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 MR. FARVER: Not so much for this 

3 one, but I remember reading one where --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think that's --

5 I have a QA note here. DR. MAURO: Any 

6 situation like this, during the QA team 

7 process --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

9 DR. MAURO: -- Q-18 was looking at 

10 the case and you do come across oh, it looks 

11 like they used it, but it doesn't matter. You 

12 know, still you're going to come up with the -

13 - an even lower dose as a result. It's still 

14 non-compensable. Do you let it go or do you 

15 try to fix it?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Certainly, I don't 

17 know what=s done today -- Scott, you may 

18 speak, because I rarely look at dose 

19 reconstructions today. Years ago when we were 

20 just getting going and we had this huge 

21 backlog of dose reconstruction facing us, we 

22 didn't correct this. We would not have 
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1 corrected this. We would have said well, it's 

2 not right that the dose is higher than it 

3 should be and it's a non-compensable phase. 

4 We're going to get it out.

5 So that was our normal mode of 

6 operation in reviewing a case, these cases for 

7 a while. I can't say on any given finding you 

8 show me, was this our instruction when this 

9 was -- when this one came through? I don't 

10 know.

11 DR. MAURO: Has that changed, by 

12 the way? I mean, are you now --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It sounds like 

14 what you are feeling --

15 DR. MAURO: The rationale is still 

16 valid.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: The rationale is 

18 still valid, except that we are a lot more 

19 sophisticated now. We have a lot more 

20 technical documents and can do things a lot 

21 better now.

22 MR. SIEBERT: Well, you get so 
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1 many more returns, it's much harder to explain 

2 to a claimant the second time around.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what 

4 triggers --

5 MR. SIEBERT: Generally speaking, 

6 we=ll, if we see an error such as this, or 

7 such as this magnitude, we go back. The peer 

8 review will kick it back and say no.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: And I would think 

10 we would --

11 MR. SIEBERT: And we would follow 

12 it.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And I think we 

14 would --

15 DR. MAURO: So it's a matter of 

16 good practice.

17 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

18 DR. MAURO: Because of this return 

19 process.

20 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, the return 

21 issues.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes, right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So what's the 

2 issue?

3 MR. FARVER: Oh, well, I was just 

4 thinking that even if you would look at it and 

5 say well, yes, if it's not what we would do 

6 now, but it doesn't matter in this case, an 

7 overestimate.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Is the reviewer at 

9 least right?

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's what I was 

11 going to ask. Is there a document trail in 

12 there?

13 MR. FARVER: I know sometimes I 

14 see comment forms.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: It can be. You 

16 know, recall our review process has an 

17 automated spread -- or automated checklist 

18 that pops up 25 percent of the time. And that 

19 pulls up the dose reconstruction. You're 

20 required to fill out a checklist.

21 And in a situation like that, we 

22 would expect them to document this had 
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1 happened, you know, this occurred and it went 

2 on. We sent it on anyway. I would expect 

3 that to happen. I don't personally go back 

4 and review those and see.

5 MR. FARVER: Now, sometimes there 

6 is a comment form included in the records.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well --

8 MR. FARVER: And what comment form 

9 is that?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: -- the comment 

11 form, if it is a comment form where there is a 

12 comment, a resolution, you get what I'm 

13 saying?

14 MR. FARVER: Yes.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: That means that 

16 case was reviewed by us and we didn't approve 

17 it. We commented on it.

18 MR. SIEBERT: Reviewed by?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And it went back 

20 to the contractor to fix the comments we made. 

21 That's their resolution, otherwise, we 

22 wouldn't sign it.
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1 MR. SIEBERT: Or DOL returns the 

2 case.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, sometimes.

4 MR. SIEBERT: For some reason.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. If DOL 

6 returns a case, that shows up back on our side 

7 and so the mechanism we have adopted to send 

8 it back to the contractor is to complete a 

9 comment sheet. And the comment in this case 

10 would be DOL returned the case because of an 

11 additional cancer.

12 MR. FARVER: Right, yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And that's the

14 only comment.

15 MR. FARVER: Now, for this 

16 finding, would that possibly show up in the 

17 NIOSH comment sheet?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: It would not on 

19 the one you described.

20 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

21 MR. HINNEFELD: If there is a 

22 sheet, a different sheet, and I don't know 
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1 where these are recorded.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I don't know.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: A different sheet 

4 that pops up. It's in our -- it=s in the 

5 procedure for dose reconstruction reviews, 

6 it=s an attachment. It pops up on 25 percent 

7 of the reviews and the dose reconstructor has 

8 to complete that and it's a review checklist. 

9 You know, was this done okay? Was this done 

10 okay? Was this done okay?

11 MR. SIEBERT: And that's within 

12 the NIOSH?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: That's within our 

14 system. That's our system. So to be honest 

15 with you, I don't see a compilation of those, 

16 and so I don't know what they say.

17 MR. SIEBERT: Okay. 

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. I 

19 would think something like this would be 

20 captured, but I don't swear to it.

21 DR. MAURO: I could say that when 

22 I see a gross overestimate, I would not --
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1 quite frankly, I just presumed that this was a 

2 shortcut that we decided to do, because we=re 

3 denying anyway. And I don't think they'll 

4 find it.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: By and large, we--

6 you know, that's the way we have acted a long 

7 time. Although as Scott mentioned, since so 

8 many cases get returned for one reason or 

9 another, if you've got a big overestimate in a 

10 case and now you have got, you know --

11 DR. MAURO: A little overestimate.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: -- and now that 

13 goes away, for instance, and for whatever --

14 for instance, a second cancer, you have a big 

15 overestimate. And you have got a POC of like 

16 40 percent or 42 percent and the person, you 

17 know, brings in -- you know, there's a couple 

18 more cancer diagnoses, you know, all of a 

19 sudden --

20 DR. MAURO: Then you deal with it.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: At the same time, 

22 a huge overestimate=s going to have over 50 
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1 percent if a person overestimates.

2 DR. MAURO: I mean, the reality is 

3 when you do the efficiency process, you leave 

4 out -- I'll leave out the environmental dose. 

5 I'll leave out the neutron, possible, neutron 

6 contribution. I see it all the time.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes.

8 DR. MAURO: All right time. And I 

9 look at it oh, no problem. Why should you

10 waste your time doing that calculation when, 

11 you know, it's not really changing anything.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

13 DR. MAURO: So I guess I don't --

14 but I can see the dilemma of you have to 

15 revisit it and then sharpen your pencil. 

16 Right now, is there --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: It's not only 

18 dilemma on the work, it's a dilemma with the 

19 communication to the public.

20 DR. MAURO: Oh, that's what I 

21 mean. The dilemma --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, right, yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: -- could be, you know, 

2 troublesome. I know that we had -- there was 

3 a Board meeting where they said don't do that 

4 any more.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: In one of these 

7 cases we are looking at, they are written up 

8 as best estimates. They have been. Now, they 

9 are getting much better about saying it is a 

10 best estimate of the external and an 

11 overestimate or a partial on the internal.

12 MR. SIEBERT: Well, that's a 

13 change we made.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, and that 

15 helps out a lot.

16 MR. FARVER: That helps a lot, 

17 yes.

18 MR. SIEBERT: Because then you can 

19 say oh, yes, well, they left this --

20 MR. FARVER: Right.

21 MR. SIEBERT: -- out, because it 

22 was a partial.
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1 DR. MAURO: I mean, that's always 

2 clear when it's a partial. You can say you 

3 left it out.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. Let's

5 go back to the -- I'm on 114. It's also a Y6 12.

7 MR. FARVER: Which one, No. 2, 

8 114.2?

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. I have 

10 114.1. I have NIOSH agreement on that.

11 MEMBER MUNN: No further action.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. 114.

13 MR. FARVER: 114.2. There was 

14 another OTIB.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Where does 

16 that stand? I have SC&A will review -- on 

August 20th 17 , yes.

18 MR. FARVER: Yes. Oh, yes, this 

19 is related back to OTIB-17. And I went back 

20 and looked at it and sent the email saying, 

21 yes.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: So you're okay. 
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1 Okay. Your finding says 114.1, but you meant 

2 .2, I think, in your email.

3 MR. FARVER: Yes.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's fine. So 

5 you have looked at OTIB-17 as it pertains to 

6 this case and it's okay?

7 MR. FARVER: Correct.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. What is 

9 OTIB-17?

10 MR. FARVER: Shallow --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Shallow dose, 

12 okay. So I guess we have got closure on that 

13 one. SC&A agrees, then closed, no further 

14 action. Right.

15 MR. FARVER: And what came out of 

16 this? What came out of that finding was we --

17 it would be nice to have a list of all the 

18 neutron areas in one spot, because there were 

19 some conflicting tables in different 

20 documents.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Now, this is the 

22 tricky one here for me. Yes, I have NIOSH 
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1 will revise the site profile and reevaluate 

2 case if necessary. Now, this is one of those 

3 that, you know, are we holding up the whole 

4 case for --

5 MR. FARVER: This is fine. This 

6 is a significant one, because --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, here is --

8 MR. FARVER: Yes.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 MR. FARVER: Here is what the --

11 how that would work. Is that there are two 

12 documents, as I've pointed out, that give 

13 different descriptions of neutron areas.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Something called 

16 Report 33 or something and the other is the 

17 site profile.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And you know, 

20 Mark, that there are some site profile issues 

21 hanging around out there from the SET review.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 
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1 okay.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: So that is on --

3 that work is underway. And it's in our 

4 project planning schedule. I'm not sure what 

5 it is scheduled for, but it is in our project 

6 plan and this specific item to resolve this 

7 difference between the site profile and the 

8 Report 33, it's one of the action items on the 

9 list.

10 So if now when that resolution is 

11 made, then if it turns out that we will have 

12 to identify cases that were done in the report 

13 -- if the Report 33 was wrong and we're going 

14 to stay with what the site profile said, that 

15 means we will have to identify cases done with 

16 Report 33 and reconsider those.

17 If Report 33 is right and the site 

18 profile is wrong, then we have to find the 

19 cases on the site profile and reconsider 

20 those. Now, if there -- if we decide that 

21 neither one is exactly right on the third 

22 number, that makes it actually kind of easier 
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1 to find the case.

2 So you know, that's going to be 

3 the kind of the outcome, but, you know, so 

4 however you want it.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Our time right now, 

6 site profile tracking on the issue is 

7 continuing, right?

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Although that Y-12 

11 -- I don't even know if it is listed as a work 

12 group any more, but it should be, because it's 

13 low --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: On my books it is 

15 actually --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- site profile 

17 issues.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: There is.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: And we know there 

21 is work to do on it. As a matter of fact, the 

22 work is under way.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 114.4 then.

2 DR. MAURO: We agree, closed.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: SC&A concurs, 

4 that's what I've got. All right. And 114.5, 

5 NIOSH agrees should have used personal data, 

6 SC&A agrees with NIOSH that they were, I can't 

7 read my own writing --

8 MR. FARVER: That had to do with 

9 using coworker data.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MR. FARVER: Instead of the actual 

12 bioassay data. And the last part of that was 

13 follow-up to an incident that was identified 

14 in the CATI report.

15 MEMBER MUNN: My last note says 

16 SC&A agrees with the response of 8/20/08, 

17 we=re closed.

18 MR. FARVER: Yes, that's the 

19 bottom line.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

21 MR. FARVER: After going back and 

22 forth a couple of times.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Where is your note 

2 on -- what --

3 MEMBER MUNN: My note says SC&A 

4 agrees with the response of 8/20/08, we=re 

5 closed.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think you are 

7 right. I have a note of mine, something here 

8 says that SC&A agrees with NIOSH that they 

9 were comparing excursion data with intake 

10 data. I think that was a mistake initially 

11 that you were making in your assessment.

12 MR. FARVER: Yes.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: And once you 

14 resolved that, you were okay with it, right?

15 MR. FARVER: Yes. The gist of it 

16 was there was bioassay data for the individual 

17 and they were using coworker data.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

19 MR. FARVER: And --

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. But 

21 SC&A is in agreement with that?

22 MR. FARVER: Correct.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: And that's closed, 

2 okay. In the middle of this thing, although I 

3 just said it's closed, in the middle of this 

4 response, I underlined this note that says the 

5 results range from -5 to 76. Clearly, this is 

6 not consistent with the coworker data.

7 MR. FARVER: And that's where I

8 was --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: You were comparing 

10 the wrong --

11 MR. FARVER: -- misinterpreting 

12 the coworker data.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. That's 

14 fine. Okay. Okay. I just want to tie those 

15 to the others. If someone is reviewing this 

16 and sees that inconsistency, I think it would 

17 be -- well, it was just confusing to me. 

18 Okay. 115.1.

19 MEMBER MUNN: I have presentation 

20 of the Board complete, was closed.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we agreed 

22 with the finding.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: NIOSH provided QC 

2 presentation, yes.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Um-hum.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, and this gets 

5 back to the QA question, but we are getting 

6 updates on that, so I think the finding for 

7 that case is closed, right?

8 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 116.1, this 

11 is an X-10 case. I have NIOSH agrees, TIB-8 

12 revised, PROC review. And that's for 1 and 2.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: 1 and 2, yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, that's 

15 standard. 116.3, NIOSH agrees, policy was 

16 revised, that's for -- that=s the standard one 

17 we have talked about. 116.4, same thing, 

18 agrees, policy was revised, that=s the 

19 selecting of the organ, right?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, in this case, 

21 they selected the organ.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Organ -- colon was 

2 the organ.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: -- earliest tool, 

5 that was the only option.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And then at other 

8 times it has when other options became 

9 available it was sometimes called on and we 

10 said, hey, use the right one.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, okay. So 

12 they are all closed.

13 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: That entire case 

15 is closed, that's good. 117.1, this is a TIB16 18, TIB-33 PROC review is what I have. Was 

17 this a compensable one, Scott?

18 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, yes.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: So this is a 

20 question of using it for compensable, so it's 

21 basically closed, but it is -- is that right?

22 MR. FARVER: Yes, because this was 
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1 during that time period when they were asked 

2 to expedite cases.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. FARVER: So they used what 

5 they had.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: So it's closed. 

7 No action on that case. TIB-18 and 33 are 

8 being reviewed with other ones. Okay. 118.1.

9 MR. FARVER: This was left with 

10 the action on our part to go back and review a 

11 few files, I believe. But anyway we did that 

12 and we agree with their response.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Let's go to their 

14 email. Can you just go over what you have in 

15 your email?

16 MR. FARVER: If I can find it.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Buy me some time 

18 to catch up. Okay. 

19 MR. FARVER: Having to do with the 

20 -- looking at dosimetry records, handwritten 

21 records, I believe, and misinterpreting what 

22 we thought was 15,000, which was later shown 
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1 to be a 13 and then -- a reason code of 13 and 

2 a beta dose of 0000, which the way it was 

3 handwritten and not very legible, looked like 

4 15,000.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, okay. So you 

6 -- but you are comfortable with NIOSH's 

7 interpretation of that?

8 MR. FARVER: Yes.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right? Okay. 

10 MR. FARVER: And then there was 

11 another dose.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: So it wasn't 

13 really a --

14 MR. FARVER: No.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: A recorded at 

16 15,000 millirems?

17 MR. FARVER: No, but it was very 

18 difficult to --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Code 13 and zeros 

20 and it looked, yes, very similar.

21 MR. FARVER: And we want to do 

22 that on a lot of these older records that are 
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1 handwritten and, you know, microfiched.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 MR. FARVER: And they are just not 

4 very clear.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then this last 

6 technical issue you are raising, this is a 

7 technical issue that may need to be addressed 

8 by a different work group. What's -- it's 

9 just a question of the film -- the linearity?

10 MR. FARVER: Yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: But I mean, is 

12 that a specific type of film that was used at 

13 INEL or is that used at many sites? I'm not 

14 sure.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: 508, I think. 

16 558, I think, is pretty standard.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: 558 is pretty 

18 standard, wasn't that? Yes. This hasn't been 

19 raised before though really, that I remember.

20 MR. FARVER: I don't believe it 

21 has. It has to do with this film and that 

22 dose range and what's the linearity?
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, in higher dose 

2 ranges.

3 MR. FARVER: Correct.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. FARVER: Normally, we don't 

6 talk about just having --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

8 right, yes.

9 MR. FARVER: -- film badge.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: So it seems like 

11 you have closed part of it, but you are 

12 keeping that aspect?

13 MR. FARVER: Well, I guess we

14 are --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: I guess you still 

16 are --

17 MR. FARVER: -- bringing that 

18 issue to your attention.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

20 MR. FARVER: I could say most of 

21 the time, they are not going to see the 7,000 

22 millirem --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

2 MR. FARVER: -- on the film badge.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. FARVER: So it may not be an 

5 issue most of the time.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. But when you 

7 see it, it could be a pretty significant 

8 aspect of a DR, I guess, you know, here. 

9 Getting those higher numbers. I don't know if 

10 -- have you guys looked at this NIOSH? Looked 

11 at this?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think we 

13 have actually looked at that one particularly, 

14 quite honestly. So I guess we can.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I think we 

16 should at least pursue that question and if 

17 there is a simple explanation.

18 MR. FARVER: And for this case it 

19 might not make any difference.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

21 MR. FARVER: Because it looks like 

22 they are still maximizing assumptions and 
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1 there still was a, you know, less than 50 

2 percent.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

4 right.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: If, in fact, you 

6 know, I mean, you're talking about another 

7 work group, I mean, if you were going to 

8 transfer it, it sounds like it's Idaho Falls, 

9 right?

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: I&E, yes, but 

11 that's why I asked -- generic film, so it 

12 might cut across --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It might be more 

14 generic, I guess.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: It says it was a 

17 combination of 508 and a high of 1290. And I 

18 know very little about film.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, me, too.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: So I'm not much --

21 I can=t help out so much here. We do have 

22 people who do know a fair amount about it, I 
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1 think.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: So we can maybe 

4 chase this down a little bit. And it sounds 

5 like, then, this would be -- it would have to 

6 be a general warning or admonition about using 

7 the data from, I don't know, Drawing L and 

8 what kind of ranges is it good for.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, based on 

11 the dosimeter they had. Is there a limitation 

12 on the range when you can feel like the 

13 dosimetry was done --

14 MR. FARVER: If you go back to our 

15 draft report --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Um-hum.

17 MR. FARVER: -- there is a figure

18 one and then it shows the dose response.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

20 MR. FARVER: For those types of 

21 film pulled from an NRC document.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, boy.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think we need to 

2 give this -- what item? Doug, can I ask you 

3 which item, which finding do you think this 

4 best fits under? Because you said 118.1, but 

5 I guess that would be best under 118.1, huh?

6 MR. FARVER: Yes.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then what 

8 happens to 118.2 through 7? Because I mean, I 

9 think we could say, you know, under 118.1 it 

10 looks like you resolved the question about the 

11 interpretation of the recorded dose, but you 

12 have a remaining question about the linearity 

13 of the film and higher dose records.

14 MR. FARVER: Yes. I will keep 

15 that one open.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, okay. Let 

17 me get that down.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Would someone like 

19 to articulate for me what notation should go 

20 in here, because I don't --

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, that's what 

22 I'm saying. It's kind of like a split 
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1 finding, Wanda, in my opinion. SC&A accepts 

2 the interpretation of the dose measurements 

3 was correct. However, they have remaining 

4 concerns about the linearity of the film 

5 dosimeters.

6 MR. FARVER: In that range.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: In that higher end 

8 dose range, right.

9 DR. MAURO: All right. So I'm 

10 looking at this graph of this -- go back to 

11 Health Physics 101. So what we have is it 

12 looks like a fairly linear response with the 

13 508 film badge over a range of doses from 1 to 

14 what 5, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 rem and then after 

15 that the linearity starts to change so that 

16 you don't -- if you are in that region, if you 

17 are in the -- if you get -- as the doses go 

18 higher, you are in a non-linear range, so how 

19 do you -- is that the concern?

20 MR. FARVER: I believe so.

21 DR. MAURO: Yes no -- 

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, also, 
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1 well, if it is -- it would speak to the 

2 calibration.

3 DR. MAURO: Even over, receiving 

4 all the distant -- according to this here, the 

5 optical density starts to flatten out. If the 

6 doses go up, the optical density don't -- let 

7 me see. Yes, as the doses go higher, the 

8 optical density does not go up in proportion. 

9 So that=s going to underestimate.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay and 

11 essentially, it's a question for the 

12 calibration procedures.

13 DR. MAURO: And how do they deal 

14 with that?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Did their 

16 calibration curve include that.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

18 DR. MAURO: Did they actually have 

19 like on his graph have like a section where 

20 508 works? The 508 component of the badge and 

21 then they have another section with a 

22 different component -- yes, I can see why this 
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1 would be an issue, yes, I think we should B2 it=s worth B- yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: But, I mean, we can 

4 check into it and see what, you know, see what 

5 they did.

6 MEMBER MUNN: This high reading 

7 was a result from an incident back in '58, or 

8 something?

9 MR. FARVER: Yes.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

11 DR. MAURO: Yes.

12 MEMBER MUNN: So --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: In March? I 

14 thought I saw one --

15 MEMBER MUNN: No.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Because I saw one 

17 was 1958. But that one was from January.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: It was related to 

19 SL-1.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Pardon?

21 DR. MAURO: Yes, this is March 25, 

22 '58.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So 118.1 

2 remains open on that regard, on that part. 

3 Solve the record interpretation question, but 

4 remaining issue on the linearity of the film 

5 badge at that higher end of exposure. Is that 

6 fair?

7 MR. FARVER: Yes.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

9 MEMBER MUNN: And so the action 

10 is?

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: That is it open. 

12 NIOSH is going to look into that.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: We are going to 

14 provide additional response regarding the 

15 linear question.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: And I guess you 

17 are saying it's spelled out a little more in 

18 the detailed write-up of the finding, right? 

19 Other things are included.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm sure it is. 

21 Yes, I'm sure it is.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: The detailed 

2 write-ups are included.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: In general order.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, okay. 

6 Sometimes we work from the matrix and lose 

7 sight of it then.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

10 MR. FARVER: That's why I always 

11 have to go back.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know, I know.

13 MEMBER MUNN: That's in the 

14 original documentation.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Now, what is 

16 this -- 118.2? Yes, that's .1. Now, I'm

17 moving on to 118.2.

18 MR. FARVER: .2. Oh, work at ANL 

19 West.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: And there is no 

21 records, right?

22 MR. FARVER: No records.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: So that question, 

2 I have it looped for all these, ANL West 

3 missing records.

4 MR. FARVER: Correct.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: For 118.2 through 

6 7. So what are we -- what's the status on 

7 that, then?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe we are 

9 checking it.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. I didn't 

11 know. I didn't have an action written. Yes, 

12 we are checking with our point of contact. 

13 And in fact, Brad commented that there was a 

14 period of time when people were saying their 

15 records went to Argonne in Chicago. My 

16 understanding at the time we had that 

17 discussion was that INEL has -- had obtained 

18 all those, and has the complete records, and 

19 were providing the complete records for 

20 Argonne West. However, that's what we are 

21 chasing down now.

22 MR. SIEBERT: The other question 
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1 was whether it was going to be -- whether they 

2 were going to be redacting that information 

3 when they send it to us or not.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: That's right. 

5 Yes, we want to make sure we had the complete 

6 record of that work at Argonne.

7 MEMBER MUNN: I don=t know, if it 

8 says we may need a comment on the site profile 

9 about ANL West as well as INEL.

10 MR. FARVER: Yes, I remember that 

11 conversation we had about where the actual 

12 doses are kept.

13 MEMBER MUNN: NIOSH=s action.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: So for all those 

15 it's NIOSH action, right.

16 MR. FARVER: Yes, they are all 

17 related.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: We can't really go 

19 any further.

20 MR. FARVER: ANLW.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Then are we onto 

22 119, based on that, because they all -- I 
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1 guess we might have to revisit the individual 

2 responses for those items, but until we see if 

3 there is any ANL West records, I don't know if 

4 we would be doing these twice, you know what I 

5 mean?

6 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Or I don't know.

8 MR. FARVER: Well, we can go and 

9 knock out like 118.6, and go on with some of 

10 the 118s from the internal side.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, because 

12 that's for 58.

13 MR. FARVER: Right.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Would he have been 

15 working at both places in that year, or 

16 potentially?

17 MR. FARVER: No, that was an 

18 incident, and it was -- had to do with how 

19 they calculated dose from the incident, I 

20 believe.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Is that for the 

22 SL-1 incident?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Which one are we 

2 talking about?

3 MR. FARVER: 118.6.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: 118.6.

5 MR. FARVER: This is another one 

6 of those where, if you go back and look at our 

7 original report, there=s more information. 

8 And this was the one, Stu, that you sent us a 

9 lot of files to look at recently.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: This is the one 

12 where the -- Stu was messing with this in the 

13 matrix, too. They are shifted, aren't they, 

14 the responses?

15 MR. FARVER: They are, so there is 

16 some --

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: I have a note 

18 here. It's 118.6(g)(3), and it=s really the 

19 response to 118.5(f)(2). So they kind of 

20 shifted down, I think, or something.

21 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Anyway --
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1 MR. FARVER: Anyway, we looked at 

2 these on the NIOSH responses to this finding, 

3 and we understand what they did and why they 

4 did it.

5 MEMBER MUNN: So you feel like we 

6 can close this?

7 MR. FARVER: We can close, yes. 

8 Whatever the real number of that finding is.

9 MEMBER MUNN: It's 1958 internal 

10 dose.

11 MR. FARVER: It's that one, yes.

12 MEMBER MUNN: That one.

13 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

14 MS. BEHLING: Excuse me, this is 

15 Kathy. On that particular finding, I believe 

16 also on the internal, in 1958, there were --

17 there was a secondary record that had a 

18 different urinalysis number on it, then a 

19 primary record. And once that was pointed 

20 out, I think when we initially calculated our 

21 internal dose, we used the secondary record, 

22 not recognizing that it was different from the 
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1 primary. And so that was part of this 

2 particular finding. And now that that was 

3 resolved, we agree with NIOSH's evaluation.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Where is this 

5 response for 118.6? Stu, do you know how it 

6 starts? Because, like I said, these have been 

7 shifted around, and I'm getting confused which 

8 ones are the response to which. Maybe it 

9 actually is --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I think what 

11 happened was --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Because it starts 

13 off saying NIOSH is requesting clarification 

14 on this, because it appears to be imply that 

15 NIOSH is required to use the highest dose 

16 calculated from an individual sample.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: No, I think it's 

18 118.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Because this goes 

20 on to say, I think what Kathy was saying, the 

21 1453, the 1.453 rem calculated by the auditor 

22 was based on an incorrect sample collection 
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1 date.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: I don't know.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: The response, as 

5 near as I can reconstruct, the response that I 

6 put in 118.6 actually pertains to 118.5.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Because if you 

9 look at the --

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: I have that.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: -- response to 

12 118.5, it's not even --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Now, where is the 

14 real response to 118.6? It's just shifted 

15 down one? Do you think?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe that=s 

17 what happened.

18 MR. FARVER: I believe so.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think so. Okay.

20 MR. FARVER: Because in our draft 

21 case, I believe, we had a finding about ambien 

22 dose.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MR. FARVER: That we didn't --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: It wasn't in the 

4 file.

5 MR. FARVER: It wasn't in the 

6 file, correct.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: And so, see if you 

8 read the finding in 118.7, it's just sort of a 

9 summary of the information from the earlier 

10 findings. So it's sort of a summary kind of 

11 finding, but the response column is a very 

12 specific response that relates to the previous 

13 findings.

14 So I think .6 and .7 are -- the 

15 responses are -- in .6 and .7 are actually 

16 numbered one too high. They should be --

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Shifted down.

18 MR. FARVER: -- .5 and .6.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Now, did we receive 

21 your comments in the separate --

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: I seem not to have 

2 transferred it appropriately to the matrix I=m 

3 looking at.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I'm trying 

to figure out what I did after August 20th 5 . I 

6 don't know the date when I transmitted --

7 MEMBER MUNN: That's okay.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: -- the responses, 

9 but there are -- we=re not on 110, we=re on 

10 118.

11 MEMBER MUNN: 118. Let me see if 

12 I can find it.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

14 MEMBER MUNN: But was it fairly 

15 recent? 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't believe it 

17 would have been very recent.

18 MEMBER MUNN: But since, following 

19 our last meeting, which would be some time 

20 between August --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I believe so.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. I'll take a 
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1 look.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: So, Doug, you're 

3 looking at this whole response, and this is 

4 the one, you=ve run this. I think in the 

5 middle of it, NIOSH was asking to see your 

6 number runs to see how you were getting your 

7 numbers, and I think you shared files, right, 

8 or maybe not.

9 MR. FARVER: I don't remember, 

10 Mark.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Do you remember if 

12 it was this one that we did?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I know we did that 

14 on one.

15 MR. FARVER: Yes.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: 118.6 and 118.7.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: And this is like a 

18 seven page response here.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: So I think, you 

21 know, I don't want to just close this out 

22 until we=re sure of what we=re looking at.
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1 MR. FARVER: Is that something I 

2 wrote?

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, this is --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: We wrote a long 

5 response.

6 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Can I ask, you 

8 know, just for the sake of this meeting, can I 

9 ask that Stu and Doug or whoever get together 

10 on this off-line, and you know, we can figure 

11 out where we are at on this, because it's a 

12 long response and I think --

13 MR. FARVER: The files were 

14 exchanged.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: I can't find them 

16 right now.

17 MR. FARVER: No.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: I don't want to 

19 jump the gun, but it looks like you are in 

20 agreement, but let's just make sure.

21 MR. FARVER: Yeah, yeah.

22 MR. FARVER: Stu sent files.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 MR. FARVER: We reviewed those and 

3 we have all been -- I know it has --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. But let's 

5 just make sure, double check that one. And 

6 the other ones were waiting on ANL, I think.

7 MR. FARVER: Yes.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: So we=ll move on 

9 to 119, if that's okay. And before the next 

10 meeting in January, it looks like I'll refresh 

11 the matrix, because this thing has shifted, 

12 too.

13 MR. FARVER: Yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: So I've got to get 

15 that all straightened out, because the 

16 responses are shifted down one, and it's very 

17 confusing to look at.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, we only need to 

19 be --

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: There's no 

21 resolutions in it at all really in the 

22 electronic copy.
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1 MS. BEHLING: I believe that=s due 

out November 13th 2 . I think I just found it, 

November 13th 3 .

MR. HINNEFELD: November 13th 4 is 

5 when I sent them?

6 MS. BEHLING: Yes, but I don't 

7 think you sent it to everyone. I'm not sure.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

9 MS. BEHLING: I had it from Doug.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

11 MS. BEHLING: So you may have only 

12 sent it to Doug.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: We=ll follow-up on 

14 that.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I'll follow-up on 

16 that here at lunch time.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Let's try to get 

18 through these, if you don't mind, just the 

19 next couple. We've got two more cases, right? 

20 Hopefully, we can get rid of these before 

21 lunch. 119.1 is a Mound case. It was a 

22 compensable underestimate. The first one I 
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1 have agreement, no effect on case. Do you 

2 agree with that?

3 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: 119.1?

5 MR. FARVER: Yes.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: 119.2 I have 

7 compensable claim, no action on case.

8 MR. FARVER: 119.2?

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 MR. FARVER: Yes.

11 MEMBER MUNN: NIOSH will present on 

12 QA program.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's right, 

14 that's right.

15 MR. FARVER: Another QA issue.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: NIOSH presented on 

17 QA program.

18 MR. FARVER: With 103 millirem 

19 instead of 1830 millirem.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

21 right. 119.3, I have, again -- I just have no 

22 further action. I'm not sure why.
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1 MR. SIEBERT: It's the same as 

2 1.1.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

4 MR. SIEBERT: We agreed.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

6 MEMBER MUNN: And SC&A reviewed 

7 the agreement.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Yes, it's 

9 compensable, no further action, right. Okay. 

10 Then 120.1 is a best estimate Mound case. I 

11 have, NIOSH agrees, will review boiler plate 

12 language. This must be on the --

13 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, this was in the 

14 dose reconstruction report.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, in the 

16 report.

17 MR. SIEBERT: Midpoint of the 

18 distribution, BCS was reported as opposed to 

19 it was actually the full range was used in the 

20 Monte Carlo calculation.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. And you=re 

22 not sure how to convey that in language that 
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1 people can understand, right?

2 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. SIEBERT: I'm not even sure I 

5 understand what I just said.

6 MEMBER MUNN: I agree.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: That came out 

8 pretty good, actually. But it's closed for 

9 this case. I think we can all agree that it=s 

10 closed for this case.

11 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: 120.2. Okay. 

13 This -- I have this as a site profile issue 

14 being referred to the Site Profile Group to 

15 review the adequacy of the annual dose data.

16 Is that what you have? So this is a transfer 

17 to site profile review.

18 MR. FARVER: Right.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: I have to make 

20 them aware of that. Okay. 120.3 now, this is 

21 again the language, reviewed language. 120.4, 

22 see 120.2 --
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1 MR. FARVER: The uncertainty.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- claim. So 

3 120.4 is also closed. Everybody agree with 

4 that?

5 MR. FARVER: Yes.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: 120.5, I have 

7 NIOSH will provide IMBA run, and I think you 

8 might have done that already. Let me check. 

9 Maybe not. Well that's what I have. NIOSH 

10 provided IMBA run for this case and La Bone.

11 MEMBER MUNN: And my note says 

12 provided in September '07. But then they 

13 reviewed it.

14 MR. FARVER: Yes, I remember 

15 looking at it.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So you do 

17 have -- wait a second, 120.5 I see on the next 

18 page. Actually, I'm sorry, I have NIOSH 

19 agrees, and they reassessed the internal dose. 

20 Is that right?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: That was a fairly 

22 long response it seems.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. NIOSH will 

3 review.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: They did.

5 MEMBER MUNN: So they did it, SC&A 

6 looked at it, and said it was okay.

7 MR. FARVER: All right.

8 MEMBER MUNN: What else do we 

9 need?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: It sounds like 

11 just what happened, the dose reconstructor did 

12 make a mistake.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, that's what 

14 I'm saying, yes.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: And I think the 

16 way -- why it took so long is that the dose 

17 reconstruction review proposed a particular 

18 what should be done instead, and our response 

19 was, well, we don't really think that should 

20 be done. We think this other thing should be 

21 done. And that was the nature of the 

22 discussion, and I think that's what they 
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1 agreed to.

2 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

3 MEMBER MUNN: It's all good.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: NIOSH agrees, 

5 reassessing term dose and SC&A was in 

6 agreement with the change. Right?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe that 

8 reflects that.

9 MR. FARVER: Yes.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. On 120.6, 

11 is this the last one? NIOSH agrees, no 

12 further action is what I have.

13 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

14 MEMBER MUNN: On (b)(2)?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MEMBER MUNN: NIOSH to provide 

17 input on the case. It=s been done, and it's 

18 closed, right?

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: I didn't have 

20 anything.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: If that was 

22 supposed to happen, it has happened, and it's 
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1 closed, I believe.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: I have nothing 

3 about an IMBA run there, but I have that it=s 

4 closed, which NIOSH agrees, and no further 

5 action.

6 MR. FARVER: I think that happened 

7 a long time ago.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. I believe 

9 that was quite a long time ago. Okay, and 

10 that does it. Yes, we did it. Just when I 

11 thought it was going to take a half hour. All 

12 right. Just to take a break from the 

13 matrices, I think after lunch maybe we can try 

14 the 100 case summary report first.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then plunge 

17 into the seventh set. I sent out a new 

18 version.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: You sent it just 

20 very recently.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Very recently, 

22 yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I did read 

2 it. I mean, I saw it. I don't know if I read 

3 it.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Ted, can we print 

5 out any copies of that, if possible, for use 

6 in here or not?

7 MR. KATZ: I think we could get 

8 something printed.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Really short, 

10 really short.

11 MR. KATZ: Give me something up 

12 here.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Is it easier to 

14 resend it to everybody here?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I guess.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I can resend to 

17 everybody here.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: You got it?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe I do.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Just resend it.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe I do.

22 MEMBER MUNN: I have it.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Do you have it, 

2 Wanda?

3 MEMBER MUNN: Well, I have a hard 

4 copy and, therefore, I must have it. It's 

5 just a matter of finding mine to mail.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: We can do that 

7 during lunch, and Kathy I know you have a copy 

8 of that letter, unless you went to lunch 

9 already.

10 MS. BEHLING: No, I'm here, and I 

11 do have a copy of it.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

13 MS. BEHLING: Should I forward to 

14 everyone?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think we are 

16 going to break --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: No, I've got it. 

18 I've got it on my screen right now.

19 MS. BEHLING: Good. Somebody else 

20 can forward it. Good.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Let's break for 

22 lunch then for an hour, and we'll start off 
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1 with that item.

2 MR. KATZ: So a little bit past 

3 1:00, we=ll start-up again.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. 

5 Thanks.

6 MR. FARVER: Thanks, Kathy.

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

8 matter went off the record at 12:02 p.m. and 

9 resumed at 1:06 p.m.)

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 1:06 p.m.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: So we're going to 

4 start on the next item. Everybody should have 

5 the summary report of the first 100 cases. 

6 The file name is First 100 Cases Summary 

7 Report, Rev 1. If you're looking for it. I 

8 think it's dated 12 -- it was just sent out 

9 recently. I left it in track changes, because 

10 I didn't change a lot, but I did -- well, and 

11 I still have to square away some of these 

12 numbers.

13 I asked Kathy, her mind is better 

14 than mine, I think we both realized that we're 

15 -- I'm going to have to go back and count 

16 through the first five matrices to resolve the 

17 medium/high/low. Kathy did, since the last 

18 meeting, send me some information on those 

19 unresolved items. So I have that.

20 And then I just have to go through 

21 and do another hard count, because when I was 

22 just trying to add those in, the numbers 
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1 weren't squaring up for me, but that's, you 

2 know, just a few numbers that are going to 

3 change slightly.

4 MS. BEHLING: And, Mark, excuse 

5 me. This is Kathy Behling, but I can 

6 certainly do that for you. I didn't offer 

7 initially, because I wasn't sure if I had the 

8 very last version of all of the older 

9 matrices, but I think I do. So if you want me 

10 to tally those up, I can do that.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. That would 

12 be great, yes, if you can do that.

13 MS. BEHLING: Okay. 

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. And 

15 but again, that's, you know, just details in 

16 the body of the letter of the summary report. 

17 But I did try to -- at least I know there 

18 were some concerns about some of the tone in 

19 it. I'm not sure there is any real objection 

20 to any of the content necessarily, but some of 

21 the way things were laid out. So I did look 

22 at some areas for modifying some of the ways I 
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1 said things.

2 I think in a couple of instances I 

3 tried to drop out some of the howevers. I 

4 would write something and then say however, 

5 you know, and I think that gave it a certain 

6 tone. But other than that, it's not 

7 drastically changed from the last time.

8 I didn't receive any specific 

9 comments from other Subcommittee Members, so I 

10 didn't really have anything to go on from that 

11 standpoint, other than what was in the -- what 

12 was said in the meeting.

13 But this is the time now if you 

14 want to discuss, comment.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I had one or 

16 two small nits. Your note on Comment 4 with 

17 respect to procedural issues. I didn't look 

18 at the comment until after I had already read 

19 the paragraphs and my first reaction having 

20 read the paragraph is why are we still 

21 carrying this? This is now a moot point.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Number 4?
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Procedural issues, 

2 number 3.

3 MR. FARVER: Three.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Number 3.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Does this one stay 

6 in some way in the report? In my view, no. I 

7 think it is --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, but --

9 MEMBER MUNN: It was appropriate 

10 to the original one.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MEMBER MUNN: But not when we --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: You don't see it 

14 as being a broad enough item to remain?

15 MEMBER MUNN: No.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, we're 

17 doing this sort of in retrospect. You've got 

18 to think, you know, this is the first 100 

19 cases, not where we are at today necessarily.

20 MEMBER MUNN: But there is -- if 

21 we are going to just repeat everything that 

22 they have heard before -- now this has been 
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1 said and it was applicable to earlier times. 

2 It isn't particularly pertinent now.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

4 right.

5 MEMBER MUNN: With an eye to as 

6 much brevity as possible. And I personally 

7 would remove that.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay, okay.

9 MEMBER MUNN: There was --

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'm going to put 

11 that I'll agree to at least compare it to the 

12 last report and either drop it or modify it, 

13 because I think you are right. It just 

14 focuses on TIB-8 and 10 and that there is a 

15 broader question about procedural issues, then 

16 maybe that, you know, for some issues maybe it 

17 remains, but if there is nothing else to be 

18 said, then I'll agree to drop this, yes. And 

19 I had that comment in there. Yes, okay.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: I was just going 

22 to put in my comment now. Okay. 
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1 MEMBER MUNN: On the third page 

2 the second paragraph there, I think we need a 

3 comma, this is a big deal. The outcome of 

4 nearly all the cases reviewed will likely not 

5 be affected by the findings in this review, 

6 comma, concerns were identified for a broader 

7 impact.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's after 

9 review then, comma?

10 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, don't you 

11 think?

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I'll let you 

13 and Paul do that sort of thing.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you. Paul 

15 wasn't here.

16 MEMBER CLAWSON: You know, every 

17 time I hear this, I think you guys really must 

18 enjoy my emails.

19 MEMBER MUNN: They're wonderful.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: I am always 

21 thankful I didn't have Paul as a professor, 

22 because I think he would have marked up a lot 
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1 of my reports.

2 MEMBER MUNN: He's very punctual.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Minus ones all 

4 over the place, you know.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I know.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I recall we didn=t 

7 have to write very many actual sentences. I 

8 remember columns and calculations.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 

10 that would be okay, but, yeah.

11 MEMBER MUNN: I don't have Paul's 

12 eagle eye.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's right.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: It was Paul's.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: The dangling 

16 participles, you know.

17 MEMBER MUNN: I can find those. 

18 The fifth page, the top of the fifth page. I 

19 may not be reading that paragraph exactly 

20 right, but it confuses me every time I read 

21 it. And I think there is a tense error in 

22 there at "Several cases were identified for 
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1 which OTIB-04 was used, but was found to be 

2 inappropriate due to the type of site and 

3 potential exposures the case involved were not 

4 properly characterized." But --

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Wait. Where are 

6 you? Where are you reading? I'm sorry.

7 MEMBER MUNN: At the top of the 

8 next to the last page.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, next to last 

10 page?

11 DR. MAURO: Right above seven.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Number seven, item 

13 number seven?

14 DR. MAURO: Right above.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Right above.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Above item seven, 

17 okay. I was on item seven.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Read that through and 

19 tell me what I'm missing. It confuses me.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I see. 

21 MEMBER MUNN: Every time I read 

22 that sentence I say, huh.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's a little 

2 scrambly, yeah. The tense things is 

3 definitely --

4 MEMBER MUNN: I think I know what 

5 you are talking about.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- tripping me up, 

7 yeah, yeah.

8 MEMBER MUNN: But I'm not at all 

9 sure how it goes exactly.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: This is cases were 

11 identified for -- I'm thinking of Apollo, I 

12 think, or NUMEC. NUMEC was one of them.

13 MEMBER MUNN: But that's not the 

14 point. The point is --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: The language, 

16 right? Yes.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: OTIB-4 was used, 

19 but it was found to be inappropriate for the 

20 type of work at that site.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: It was measured.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. I mean, it 
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1 needs to be reworded for sure.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it is kind of 

3 like read clauses, but only two of them --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: -- either two of 

6 them would be work together, but they almost 

7 like the third one. You know, the first one 

8 has to be in some sense or the third one has 

9 to be.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: I agree, yeah, 

11 yeah, yeah.

12 MEMBER MUNN: It's extraneous in 

13 there.

14 DR. MAURO: Also it seems like if 

15 you're not inside the process that we went 

16 through, we would not really understand the 

17 relevance of this comment. In other words, 

18 it's a very general statement that here we 

19 have a procedure that was being followed, but, 

20 in fact, it wasn't. I mean, it was self21 centered. In effect what I see is that here 

22 is a procedure that was written for a 
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1 particular purpose, but it ended up being 

2 expanded and used for other purposes where it 

3 really shouldn't be used.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 DR. MAURO: And I think that's the 

6 -- what is trying to be said.

7 MEMBER MUNN: But I don't think 

8 that's what is being said.

9 I'm not sure at all what is being 

10 said. And being familiar with what we have 

11 done, I can't imagine that someone who is not 

12 intimately familiar with what we have done 

13 would not also be confused with that sentence.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: I like the way 

15 John said it, too, actually. So I'll rephrase 

16 that. I took that note down. I think it is 

17 easier if I try to redraft this before we meet 

18 in Augusta, you know, send it out like a week 

19 before.

20 We'll have time to look at it 

21 again. But I will change that, because it's a 

22 mess. Yes, I agree.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: A week before is 

2 tomorrow.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Holy cow, that's 

5 right. That's what it is, yes.

6 MEMBER MUNN: It really is.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, that's right. 

8 I thought we had another week in there for 

9 some reason. I guess I was hoping.

10 MEMBER MUNN: I think those are my 

11 only nits. Of course, we still lack the 

12 numbers.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Well, and--

14 I mean, the more substantive change I try to 

15 make and Stu gave me the dates on page 1.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: And I was pretty 

18 close in my guess, but that's more precise.

19 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then I tried 

21 to break up that next paragraph to reference 

22 the tables, but SC&A put together a little 
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1 more.

2 MEMBER MUNN: It reads much nicer.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, so they can 

4 look at the -- it refers them to the 

5 attachments instead of just the one on the 

6 POC. It kind of refers them to all the 

7 attachments.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: And I guess I -- I 

10 mean, the other thing I tried to take out of 

11 it was any judgment on those tables 

12 necessarily, just sort of statistics and here 

13 they are.

14 MEMBER MUNN: That was 

15 appreciated. And frankly, I did not spend a 

16 lot of time looking at the attachments. I'm 

17 just working on the assumption that --

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: These were the 

19 ones that B They are basically pie graphs 

20 most of them. Tables.

21 MEMBER MUNN: I mean, I didn't 

22 take any time to verify the accuracy --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 MEMBER MUNN: -- of the tables. 

3 I'm assuming that that's been done.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Did I send those 

5 along?

6 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think I sent 

8 them.

9 MEMBER MUNN: You did.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Just to 

11 make sure, yes. And those were ones that I 

12 think Kathy presented at a meeting for us and 

13 then gave to us as --

14 MEMBER MUNN: I just did not check 

15 their accuracy with the information.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

17 right. And if you look at them and think you 

18 want to --

19 MEMBER MUNN: No. The 

20 presentation was very easy for the reader to 

21 follow.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Am I the only person 

2 who is going to complain about any of this?

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, that wasn't 

4 even a complaint, Wanda.

5 DR. MAURO: I think it's an 

6 important observation. I mean, just reading 

7 it down. I think it's an important graph, the 

8 first one.

9 Listen, our goal is to look at 2.5 

10 percent and we really haven't. Now, is that a 

11 problem? I mean, even at 2.5 percent, I 

12 guess, was picked on some basis.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, it was based 

14 on the former.

15 MEMBER MUNN: It was fairly 

16 arbitrary. We knew what was statistically 

17 submitted, the numbers, and we went into that.

18 DR. MAURO: Right.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, it was sort 

20 of based on Till=s sampling of the Veteran's 

21 Program.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Right.
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1 DR. MAURO: Took guidance from 

2 there, and the question is because we didn't 

3 do 2.5 percent, we did about half or less than 

4 half of that, is there anything that you think 

5 that as being mighty important that is being 

6 missed? I mean, I'm trying to think myself. 

7 I think about, you know, doing all this for 

8 five years and looking at all these different 

9 sites and all the different cases and the 

10 kinds of insights we are getting.

11 I can just pass on to you folks 

12 that we are noticing that every -- the next 

13 round, each next round of cases that we look 

14 at is becoming a repeat to a large extent. 

15 It's almost as if we -- I don't know. 

16 Certainly, Doug, do you feel as if that each 

17 next stage it's almost as if we are getting 

18 1.50 percent?

19 Now, I think I've got a point with 

20 this. I would say that I know when I do the 

21 AWEs, I would say 70 percent of my findings 

22 are already found.
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1 And maybe 30 percent are new ones 

2 now unique to this particular site now. And 

3 everything else is more or less a carry-over 

4 from similar -- so it's almost as if --

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: That are 

6 unresolved?

7 DR. MAURO: We are getting -- we 

8 are still catching --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's just a repeat 

10 as well.

11 (Simultaneous speaking)

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: They may or may 

13 not be resolved.

14 DR. MAURO: So the idea that, you 

15 know -- I don't know, I'm just trying to think 

16 about what I have seen and the fact that we 

17 didn't hit 2.5 percent. I have to say my 

18 reaction to that and your judgment, of course, 

19 is it is not a fatal flaw.

20 In other words, the fact that we 

21 have been hit in the last five years --

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, we didn't 
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1 expect to hit it.

2 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay. Okay. 

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: This is the report 

4 on the first 100.

5 DR. MAURO: Oh, the first 100, 

6 right. But I mean, even the fact that -- you 

7 know, I don't know what percent we are at now, 

8 how many there actually are.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

10 MEMBER MUNN: I think we're pretty 

11 close actually.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: There's 20,000 

13 some aren't there? I don't know how many.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I would say we 

15 have done -- yes, I think we have done a 

16 little over 20,000.

17 DR. MAURO: And so we have done 

18 140, how many hundred? How many?

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: So 1 percent. 

20 Well, 1 percent is still about 200.

21 DR. MAURO: We're still short.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. I don't 
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1 know. I thought --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: This is probably--

3 DR. MAURO: -- what's the 

4 significance of the fact we're basically 

5 operating at a pace, especially less, quite a 

6 bit less than what the original pace was. And 

7 are there consequences to that that we 

8 perceive? And right now, I have to say I 

9 don't know. You know, we're catching a lot of 

10 stuff.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: I don't think 

12 there --

13 DR. MAURO: And we're missing a 

14 lot of stuff.

15 MEMBER MUNN: The key is that 

16 virtually all of the permutations of concerns 

17 that could arise. You have been permitted one 

18 way or another.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: I disagree. I 

20 mean, you know, I think for me and I took some 

21 of the -- I tried to take some of the tone out 

22 of this, but I think the thing you can't miss 
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1 in this report is that we said from the 

2 beginning that we wanted to weight heavily on 

3 the 45 to 50. They just weren't available at 

4 this time. So we don't have any weight on 

5 that at all.

6 DR. MAURO: Exactly.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: You've got -- you 

8 know, when you are talking 4 out of 100

9 cases --

10 DR. MAURO: I agree with that.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- being that way, 

12 you know, it's no surprise to me that cases 

13 that come into us at 10 percent POC --

14 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- or 70 percent, 

16 you know, that we are not finding fatal flaws, 

17 as you say, you know.

18 MEMBER MUNN: I'm misinterpreting 

19 what I was saying.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh.

21 MEMBER MUNN: I meant I did not 

22 specifically with respect to the dose 
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1 reconstruction activities themselves, but in 

2 terms of the overall picture of the site and 

3 how we go about things.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, okay.

5 MEMBER MUNN: We have pretty much 

6 identified where the major issues lie.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, okay, okay. I 

8 misinterpreted you.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: Sorry.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, that's all 

13 right.

14 DR. MAURO: Okay. So I read this 

15 once, an earlier version. I think that maybe 

16 the most important exhibit is Table 5. 

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Is that the one 

18 with the POC?

19 DR. MAURO: That's the pie chart 

20 with the POC.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. And I --

22 DR. MAURO: Yes.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- think I stated 

2 that pretty, you know. strongly. That's the 

3 one I saved for last.

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, see because, in 

5 effect, that was happening -- I -- what is 

6 happening is that I think that it's almost 

7 like two phases. The process we just came 

8 through has two phases. Remember we did 

9 realize. We transitioned. A transition phase 

10 where they were drawing it. And even though 

11 we didn't hit 2.5 percent on that, I don't 

12 think that's important, not very important, 

13 because of the recurring nature of the 

14 comments that are associated with the low 

15 hanging fruit.

16 Now, we have moved into a phase 

17 where we're always looking at the 45 to 40, 

18 you know, the realistic ones. And according 

19 to the pie chart, we're going with -- I have 

20 all the ones we looked at only 5 percent. But 

21 here is where things got a problem, findings 

22 have substantial import. And now, we are at 
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1 the place where, you know, the -- I guess, the 

2 robustness of the program in terms of all the 

3 procedures, all of the approaches, the quality 

4 assurance, every aspect of the program.

5 The site profiles to the 

6 procedures have become you've got to get it 

7 right. And so, in effect, the first -- in 

8 this first set, by their very nature, these 

9 first 100 B So I mean, there is -- so there 

10 is a transition leaving that. Now, I don't 

11 know when we really start to pick up the pace. 

12 For example, if we've got a pie chart right 

13 now --

14 MEMBER MUNN: We're on about the 

15 third set, I think.

16 DR. MAURO: Yes. But where I 

17 think that, you know, then it becomes a matter 

18 of okay, now we have transitioned into these 

19 more difficult cases, the ones that really 

20 it's important that we catch things that 

21 might, you know, have reversals. And it's at 

22 that point where the percent that you review 
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1 will have lots.

2 A review of these percents and you 

3 find 1 out of 100 are possible, potential 

4 reversibles. We don't say --

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's also hard, by 

6 their very nature as we found out, you know. 

7 I mean, the number available is often, you

8 know, we just have the numbers, you know.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: For a focus like 

10 that, I think you should really think about 

11 your selection and maybe select review for 

12 every single one on 45 and 50, because I 

13 honestly don't believe the number is going to 

14 be in the 45 percent of the overall total --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Of the overall 

16 total.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: -- in that range.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Because you 

20 constantly look for them.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: And/or, you know, 

2 at least lately and still you don't find all 

3 that many.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: So I think we may 

6 want to --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: We might want to 

8 do it all.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: You may just want 

10 to think we're going to review every single 

11 one that is between 45 and 50.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And I think you 

14 will still be left with 2.5 percent.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MEMBER MUNN: That's not true.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: And maybe if you 

18 want to do some additional looks as well, you 

19 can, you know, review some other criteria as 

20 well. But if that's really where you want to 

21 focus, you feel like that's where the 

22 worthwhile review is and there aren't going to 
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1 be that many --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: -- at least just 

4 check. I can -- it will take me a day or two 

5 for the query to run for how many there are.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, don't you 

7 usually pull out all the cases between 45 and 

8 50? The last couple of times I thought you --

9 or were you pulling out best estimates?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I have pulled all 

11 the ones that were best estimates.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Best estimates. 

13 We were thinking that that was --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, this last 

15 model -- this last time -- well, they 

16 shouldn't be in this range of POCs if they are 

17 not pulled in --

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

19 right. That was the --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. So they 

21 should all be on that list.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right. And 
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1 we weren't getting that many.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: This most recent 

3 pull -- you know from looking through there, 

4 there are not that many in that range.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And in this most 

7 recent pull, I didn't go all the way back. I 

8 drew some arbitrary copies. I had to be 

9 finished by January 1, '07 or something.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: So I didn't go all 

12 the way back. But those are the ones. Every 

13 single one and it's on this No. 11 selection 

14 wasn't, of course, handed down yet. But so 

15 you may just want -- I'm just suggesting in 

16 order to focus on those, choose every single 

17 one and then maybe if you have some ideas, 

18 some other things you want to look at, use the 

19 second set of criteria. I think you are going 

20 to need to select more than 2.5 percent 

21 objectives.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: But even these, I 
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1 think, and now that I'm looking at that 

2 graphic, I might even ask SC&A to modify that, 

3 because I think it would be more telling to 

4 break up that 0 to 45 a little more. You 

5 know, give us a little more stratification in 

6 there, in your pie graph. 

7 Because I think also, you know, if 

8 we are not finding many at all in 45 to 50, we 

9 might then look from 40 to 50 or whatever.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: And let's see how 

12 we -- our breakout rate now is in that regard. 

13 I don't know.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Well, we started out 

15 looking at decades when we were first looking 

16 at them.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

18 MEMBER MUNN: I don't mean --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know what you 

20 mean.

21 MEMBER MUNN: -- temporal.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: I mean, decades.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Categorically. And 

4 I think almost everybody agrees that anything 

5 below about 30 percent was really pointless to 

6 look again.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

8 MEMBER MUNN: But it always -- I 

9 would think it would be helpful to the casual 

10 dealer to see.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: See the breakout 

12 there.

13 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: I am going to ask 

15 you, John, as an action -- or, Kathy, are you 

16 on the phone?

17 MS. BEHLING: Yes, I'm here. I 

18 can break that down.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

20 MS. BEHLING: That's not a 

21 problem.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Thanks. But the 
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1 other graphics, the other testaments in here 

2 are important. And I'm thinking back to what 

3 was said at the last meeting. I mean, I just 

4 modified my one sentence here. I was sitting 

5 counting the number of sites and I think that 

6 is important to relate to the -- to our 

7 audience. But you know, we did 100 reviews 

8 and it covers 37 on that list. But I put 

9 parenthetically 37 different sites.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: So we are -- you 

12 know, in terms of who we sort of are -- you 

13 know, the community throughout the United 

14 States and all the claimants, you know, we're 

15 trying to cover.

16 MEMBER MUNN: In terms of --

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: We're trying to be 

18 broad about this and looking --

19 MEMBER MUNN: They are covered.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

21 DR. MAURO: And the cancer types, 

22 I mean.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 DR. MAURO: I think the design.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

4 DR. MAURO: The initial design was 

5 well conceived.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Was pretty well.

7 DR. MAURO: And it was 

8 implemented. The fact that we didn't do as 

9 many was -- the way I look at it, it's not as 

10 important as the fact that we did achieve the 

11 other objectives, namely the cross sections.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, very good. 

13 We got a reasonable selection across decades.

14 DR. MAURO: But the outcome of 

15 that now as this program matures in terms of 

16 these kinds of data and what they tell us is 

17 driving the conversation we just had, which is 

18 important, which means that we are maturing in 

19 our thinking about how do we take our samples 

20 now.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, we're next.

22 DR. MAURO: And we're next. I 
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1 think that's an important thing.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. KATZ: I think it's good that 

4 you are having this conversation, because I 

5 think this is a natural one for the Augusta 

6 agenda to discuss.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, and I was 

8 going to try to present this. If the 

9 Subcommittee agrees on this draft, I'm sure 

10 the Board Members will have opinions, too, so 

11 it might not be the final thing written out, 

12 but I can go through this, including all the 

13 attachments and have that discussion then. 

14 And also mention that we are queuing up an 

11th 15 set, you know.

16 Mike or Brad, any comments on 

17 that?

18 MEMBER CLAWSON: Well, I would 

19 like and there should be a final choice.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh no, more 

21 grammar.

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: No, coming to me.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's never my 

2 strength, you know.

3 MR. KATZ: Something to think 

4 about when you do that, you guys are thinking 

5 about it anyway, so they adjust the agenda, 

6 this very topic. So there is both the 

7 question of selection, how do you want to go 

8 forward.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

10 MR. KATZ: In terms of selection. 

11 The other question that is a sort of natural 

12 one since we are going to be transitioning to 

13 a new contract for your support and so on is 

14 just numbers, too. How -- I mean, you raised 

15 the question earlier on with me about, you 

16 know, are we doing enough dose reconstruction 

17 reviews?

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

19 MR. KATZ: I think that's another

20 one to raise with the whole Board.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, just so 

22 everyone -- I mean, I raised the question of 
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1 the number of cases per contract cycle.

2 MR. KATZ: Yes.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: And whether we 

4 need to ramp up to meet our goals of 2.5 

5 percent.

6 DR. MAURO: We have been operating 

7 at 60 cases a year.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

9 DR. MAURO: And that was due to 

10 the fact that, I understand, the update -- you 

11 guys -- we don't know what --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

13 DR. MAURO: It's something like 

14 that. Just from the point of capacity, there 

15 are two -- if we were operating at this --

16 under the same level of complexity that we 

17 have in the past year or so, which means, you 

18 know, we're moving heavily into the more 

19 realistic cases.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

21 DR. MAURO: We could double our 

22 capacity. I mean, that's it, otherwise, we --
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1 I think -- I don't think -- otherwise if the 

2 Board --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: You could do up to 

4 120 a year.

5 DR. MAURO: We could do that.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: There can be twice 

7 as many.

8 DR. MAURO: Well, you know, I have 

9 been trying to look at the big picture.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

11 DR. MAURO: And the resources we 

12 have, the work hours and our skilled resources 

13 have. And the reality is I realize that, the 

14 program and I feel confident, we can wrap up 

15 at twice that.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, if the 

17 Board wanted to do that.

18 DR. MAURO: But the only downside, 

19 the only place where I have reservations is 

20 that each case is taking a little longer to 

21 do.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: We end up thinking 
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1 about the resolution process anyway. I'm not 

2 sure if you got that far ahead of us if it 

3 will be even worthwhile, you know.

4 DR. MAURO: We have to get to --

5 you know, we're doing a very good job on it. 

6 I mean, we're up to the seventh case.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, we're up to 

the seventh. You're only on the 10th 8 , right? 

9 So, yes, we're not lagging too far behind.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: And the rate 

11 limiting effect might be -- we might be the 

12 rate limiting factor, rather than --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: And remember as we 

15 move on to these cases, we're going to see the 

16 same stories over again, unless we get into 

17 these realistic cases where unique situations 

18 are --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, that's where 

20 I think you may not. You may not.

21 DR. MAURO: So it's complicated.

22 MR. FARVER: I think the number of 
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1 findings will decrease, because we have a lot 

2 of repetitive findings out of the way.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. But the 

4 difficulty of resolution --

5 MR. FARVER: We're actually in the 

6 range, right.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, right, right. 

8 So anyway, any more comments on the draft? 

9 I'll try to -- I mean, you can send me stuff 

10 up to -- you know, I guess, I've got to cut it 

11 off. Like this Thursday, I've got to send it 

12 out to the Board Members, everybody else by 

13 Thursday, I would say. So if you have any 

14 other particulars you want to email me, that's 

15 fine. I'll try to do it during Wanda's 

16 meeting tomorrow or Wednesday more likely.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Thanks.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: It sounds like an 

19 action-packed meeting tomorrow, so I probably 

20 won't have an opportunity tomorrow, but 

21 Wednesday, I'll finish it and send it out.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Well, thank you for 
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1 getting these drafts back early enough, so I 

2 can take a look at them.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. Let's 

4 move on to the seventh set then.

5 DR. MAURO: He says reluctantly.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: This is where I 

7 fade with the early morning travel. All 

8 right. The seventh set. We did go through 

9 once already. I'm sure everybody remembers 

10 exactly every finding.

11 Let's see, I'm going to -- let me 

12 just pull it up and I want to see what my most 

13 recent version is. I have actions from June 

10th 14 meeting is the last electronic file I 

15 have. I have a matrix dated June 10, 2008 is 

16 the last electronic version I have. And then 

at the August 20th 17 meeting, I think, is where 

18 I have some handwritten resolutions.

19 But the last electronic version I 

20 have, I think, that I sent out was -- is June 

21 10, 2008. Wanda, do you have that one?

22 MEMBER MUNN: I'm trying to --
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1 interestingly enough, that was not one of the 

2 policy forms.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Uh-oh.

4 MEMBER MUNN: I have numerous 

5 other numbers that I have.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Stu, do you have 

7 that? Could you read?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I am looking for 

9 it.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Because to be 

12 honest with you, I believe I have an older one 

13 on my scandisk.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, okay.

15 MEMBER MUNN: I have an August 20.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'm not on the 

17 Internet.

18 MEMBER MUNN: I have --

19 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry, Mark, did 

you say the June 10th 20 date was an action one 

21 or is that --

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: No.
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1 DR. MAURO: The name of the file?

CHAIR GRIFFON: June 10th 2 was in 

3 the name of the matrix, but also in the 

4 actions, yes. Seventh set actions from the 

June 10th 5 meeting.

6 DR. MAURO: That's what we're 

7 looking at.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: So there is an 

9 action list as well. And I think there is 

10 just a one-pager.

11 DR. MAURO: Yes.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

13 MR. FARVER: The other ones I have 

say June 6th 14 in the title.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Is that the matrix 

16 or the action?

17 MR. FARVER: The matrix.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: The matrix? It 

says June 2nd 19 ?

20 DR. MAURO: That's what I have, 

21 too.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: In the title?
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Is there a header 

3 on your's? No? It just starts off right with 

4 the thing, right? Mine says June 10, 2008.

5 MR. FARVER: I've got one that 

6 says prepared by work group February 15, 2007. 

7 And then in the footer it says update May 30, 

8 2008. That looks like one that was sent with 

9 NIOSH responses.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, I see, yes, 

11 okay. 7/28, matrix really sent to 

12 Subcommittee June 2, '08. Is that what -- you 

13 have that file?

14 MR. FARVER: Yes.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. And then on 

16 the header on that it says prepared February

17 15, '07, right?

18 MR. FARVER: Correct.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. I have a 

20 different one, but I think they are the same 

21 in terms of content.

22 MR. FARVER: I might have one that 
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1 you updated.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. I have --

3 yes, I might have updated.

4 MR. FARVER: During the meeting.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: But I said -- yes, 

6 okay.

7 DR. MAURO: Am I correct that this 

8 one that I'm looking at looks like it has been 

9 populated? All of them have been populated by 

10 NIOSH? That was the large --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Most of them, yes. 

12 Some --

13 DR. MAURO: Some not.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, let's just 

work from that one that says June 2nd 15 , since 

16 most people have that. Wait a second.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I think I have 

18 one.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, I've got one.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That would be the 

one with the August 20th 21 meeting date on it.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, this one that 
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1 I'm looking at has sent to Subcommittee June 

2 10, '08.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: And it does have 

5 some -- it has a lot of resolutions in here. 

It must be from the June 10th 6 meeting maybe.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: It is probably. I 

8 don't know what the -- whether resolutions 

came June 10th 9 or not. Scott just forwarded 

10 this one to me and it says sent -- it was 

really sent to the Subcommittee on June 2nd 11 . 

12 He sent me that one.

13 DR. MAURO: What was the file 

14 date?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: No, that's an 

16 older one. No.

17 DR. MAURO: Okay. Now, the one I 

18 -- the latest one that I have is -- it says to 

Subcommittee for August 20th 19 meeting, August 

20 20, 2008 meeting.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, okay.

22 DR. MAURO: I can send that one.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: And what's the --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. We 

3 might be working with a couple different 

4 versions. I have some -- in my matrix, I have 

5 some that have, for instance, 128.2. I have 

6 NIOSH has reviewed DR tool, compensable case, 

7 no further action. I have a lot of the 

8 resolutions typed in here. It doesn't include 

9 a couple of the things that Stu has in another 

10 version that he says was sent to the 

Subcommittee on -- for August 20th 11 meeting.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: That's for the 

June 20th 13 meeting.

CHAIR GRIFFON: August 20th 14 I 

15 thought.

MR. HINNEFELD: August 20th 16 .

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. So you might 

18 have to have that one open while I have this 

19 one open.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm going to send 

21 what I got to everybody.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: We can look at it.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'll merge this 

3 into one final document. You know, we will 

4 just go through them step by step. We'll just 

5 go through them step by step. It looks like I 

6 updated one version of the matrix and Stu 

7 updated and added some NIOSH responses in an 

8 older version. So we have got kind of two 

9 things going on here.

10 DR. MAURO: And we have sort of a 

11 third level, that is in response to Stu's 

12 material that was sent to us.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: Doug looked at as much 

15 of it as he could and he apparently has marked 

16 in our position regarding this.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Did you put it in 

18 the matrix?

19 DR. MAURO: Well, it's on here 

20 anyway.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

22 DR. MAURO: Have you seen it?
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: I haven't seen it.

2 MR. FARVER: No, you haven't, 

3 because that's the same thing I brought to the 

4 last meeting.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right.

6 MR. FARVER: When I got through 

7 this, I go through all these new responses.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

9 right.

10 MR. FARVER: And come up with my 

11 response and that's what I tell you.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right, all 

13 right. Well, let's go through them one by one 

14 and out of this meeting I will fix the sixth 

15 and seventh matrix, so we have one final copy 

16 of both, you know. One updated final copy. 

17 And then we will work to getting that database 

18 set up so we don't have, you know.

19 MEMBER MUNN: What we're going to 

20 need is that setup.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: What's that?

22 MEMBER MUNN: The proofings. 
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1 Because I have all kinds of individual 

2 communications regarding the seventh set.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: But you don't have 

4 a matrix?

5 MEMBER MUNN: I don't know where 

6 the matrix was.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Stu, can you 

8 supply her one?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I just sent it.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, he sent it.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: The one I have 

12 that said it was --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: -- it looks like I 

put this stuff on it for the August 20th 15

16 meeting. So I don't know that I had the most 

17 recent.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Like you said, I 

20 mean, it should have been updated.

21 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you very much.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. So 
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1 let's try to work with these three or four 

2 matrices, whatever we have. All the findings 

3 are the same, so, you know. All right.

4 Let's start at the top. And this 

5 one, 121.1, I don't have a NIOSH response, but 

6 I think you have had, right? So, yes.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. This is 

9 Aliquippa Forge case.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I have not opened 

11 the finding itself in the report, so I have it 

12 in the summary, but I can tell you what is 

13 written here as a response. The available 

14 information in the case is that no additional 

15 remediation occurred after the initial 

16 decontamination efforts in 1950.

17 Based on the nature of the 

18 contamination observed in 1978, spotty low 

19 level surface contamination. Using an 

20 inflated maximum exposure rate as described 

21 below to represent the plan average is

22 considered a claim of favorable.
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1 So the finding must have related 

2 to what -- the data that were used in the --

3 DR. MAURO: It's a classic

4 problem --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: -- across all of the 

7 residual radioactivity period for AWEs very

8 often, and this is -- I remember this --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: -- 1978 data. 1978 is 

11 a date to remember, because that's when very 

12 often the flush out program begins. And 

13 that's when the characterization begins. And 

14 very often characterization data is collected 

15 before the flush out clean-up begins as 

16 characterized.

17 And one of the concerns, and we've 

18 come across this many times, is that that very 

19 same reading, whether it is microrem per hour 

20 reading or swipe samples, it is used to 

21 reconstruct the doses from residual rating 

22 where it could be following operations. That 
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1 may have been 20 years ago, 20 years before.

2 And I -- my recurring comment is 

3 you really want to use 1978 data to 

4 reconstruct doses to people in the 1950s and 

5 perhaps '60s. And sometimes the 19 -- the 

6 data you refer to, now, this one I can't say 

7 for sure, I would have to look at, is host8 decontamination and sometimes it's pre9 decontamination.

10 What I just heard from you is it 

11 was pre-decontamination data.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: That's the way 

13 it's presented here.

14 DR. MAURO: That is a positive.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 DR. MAURO: Still you've got a 20 

17 year period between.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Still you've got a 

19 20 year period of draft.

20 DR. MAURO: Well, the response 

21 goes on. The general area dose rate measured 

22 in 1978 indicated no difference than 
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1 background. With that background being 

2 defined as .03 or .05 millirem per out. The 

3 exposure matrix was based on the upper end of 

4 this background range and assumed that at that 

5 level, the gamma radiation was due to 

6 residual activity. So, essentially, you know, 

7 it wasn't background. It was residual. And 

8 this leads to a claimant favorable .

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Let me say 

10 -- I mean, I have been looking this way. 

11 Because you have OTIB-60 now -- TBD-6000 and 

12 OTIB-70, you have come up with a much more 

13 formalized way of dealing with this issue. 

14 Two important things.

15 In TBD-6001, you have data on 

16 residual radioactivity for a variety of 

17 different kinds of sites that -- and the data 

18 go back to, you know, earlier years. So you 

19 now have almost like a catalog of information 

20 that, in my mind, represents a much better 

21 starting point for doing dose reconstruction 

22 during residual periods, especially when you 
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1 are looking at very large time spans between 

2 the beginning of the residual period and your 

3 later data.

4 I have to say I have a real 

5 problem using 1978 date for 1958, '60 

6 exposures. And you have the wherewithal now 

7 between OTIB-70 and TBD-6000 to do a better 

8 job there.

9 Now, with all that being said, 

10 that doesn't mean we're talking about 

11 significant doses.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Unless the 

14 exposure is only that. Usually what we run 

15 into when a person is exposed during 

16 operations and then for a long period of time 

17 post-operations and the during operations 

18 always swamps the exposure, so, therefore, 

19 these comments on residual become of 

20 scientific interest. But in terms of their 

21 significance to the dose reconstruction and 

22 possibility of perhaps a reversal, it rarely 
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1 plays a role.

2 Nevertheless, I think that you 

3 have now built an infrastructure between OTIB4 70 and TBD-6000/6001 that should be used. You 

5 know, whether or not you can go back and 

6 revisit this from that perspective, you know, 

7 I think my comment still stands.

8 DR. MAURO: Right.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: You don't want 

10 this 1978 data for 1958 exposures or whatever 

11 the year was.

12 DR. MAURO: Okay. That sounds, 

13 you know, not only that you have a finding, 

14 but you have a recommended solution, so that's 

15 actually kind of a plus.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, but we haven't 

17 reviewed TIB-70 completely, right?

18 DR. MAURO: We did review TIB-70.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Potentially.

20 DR. MAURO: The procedures are 

21 working with it.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: But I know what they 

2 are talking about.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: I guess that's --

4 DR. MAURO: He made a very 

5 detailed review, very comprehensive and it has 

6 some limitations, but not with respect to 

7 this. In other words, TIB-70 has five, I 

8 believe, different strategies. And OTIB-6 --

9 TBD-6000 had an array of different settings, 

10 all of which, like I said, represent a 

11 catalog.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

13 DR. MAURO: Some -- we have 

14 comments on some of those and some of those we 

15 find fine. We'll get to those eventually. 

16 What I'm trying to say is that now that you 

17 have that, what's done here? I don't know.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

19 DR. MAURO: You know, what we want 

20 to do here, I don't know. In a real case 

21 where you didn't have that available to you --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. It wasn't
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1 available at the time.

2 DR. MAURO: At the time.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: It wasn't until 

4 the year --

5 DR. MAURO: Exactly.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And I mean, I 

7 think we have to -- you would have to assess 

8 whether TIB-70 would even make a difference. 

9 If you applied that methodology, would it even 

10 make a difference in the case?

11 DR. MAURO: That's right. That's 

12 something you might be able to look at quickly 

13 if it's a real low POC, you know what I mean? 

14 You don't have to go do the whole 

15 calculation. You can probably say, you know, 

16 there is no way.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I think that 

18 maybe -- well, we have not done that. I mean, 

19 our response also goes on to compare doses 

20 like the Y-12 plan went, which was an 

21 operating uranium plant and two of the doses 

22 that this model assigned for the residual 
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1 period of the plant that periodically rolled 

2 uranium and they are fairly equivalent.

3 DR. MAURO: Right. But as you 

4 pointed out, you are looking at background.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: In other words, you're 

7 saying by the time we got to 1970 it was 

8 background.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: It was background.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

11 DR. MAURO: So you're right. 

12 Actually, you make a very good point and I 

13 think it would be worth our while to go take a 

14 look at that and see if we can't get away from 

15 the practice of -- since the '78 survey is all 

16 we have, we'll try to pull something out of 

17 that.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that's the 

19 reason you built.

20 DR. MAURO: I'm pretty sure that's 

21 what we did it.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: So you are going 

3 to -- what's the action here? I just want to 

4 capture it correctly.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. NIOSH will 

6 evaluate the use of OTIB-70 and TBD-6000 for--

7 in place of the technique that was used.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. Yes, 

9 that's it.

10 DR. MAURO: As a general rule in 

11 every AWE, we do have some very -- in some 

12 cases, we do have some very significant 

13 findings for operations which are unique to 

14 that operation. Have to be dealt with on a 

15 case by case basis. However, once you get to 

16 the residual period, you generally find -- I 

17 see myself saying over and over again what I 

18 said just now.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, all right. 

20 And does that apply for -- well, one and two 

21 seem to overlap a little bit, don't they? The 

22 data and the model is kind of what you are 
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1 saying?

2 MEMBER MUNN: Inappropriate?

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Are they the 

4 same, John? Is it the same action, those two?

5 MEMBER MUNN: Inappropriate 

6 method. Measure inappropriate data --

7 DR. MAURO: Based on the 

8 rationale, same thing.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. It is the 

10 same. Okay. I just wanted to make sure, 

11 since I only have the little snippet and you 

12 get the whole thing.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then 121.3, I 

15 think, is the inhalation side, inhalation and 

16 ingestion side of this same equation, right?

17 DR. MAURO: OTIB-9.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Use the '78 data 

19 again to --

20 DR. MAURO: I'm not sure.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'm asking what 

22 I'm assuming, I guess. 
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Actually, that one 

2 appears to have used -- here is what the 

August 20th 3 response was. I'll show that one.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Contamination 

6 measurements summarized in a July 28, 1949 

7 memo indicate contamination levels which are 

8 very consistent with the survey conducted in 

9 1992, with the exception of two areas all 

10 contamination levels were less than 10,000 

11 dpm. All contamination levels on the hearth 

12 protection plates and guide plates were 15,000 

13 and 25,000 and 20,000, respectively.

14 The company narrative and 

15 subsequent correspondence, August 23, 1949 

16 memo directed that these areas undergo 

17 additional decontamination. The survey data 

18 is consistent with the measurements of 1992, 

19 which would indicate that not only were the 

20 levels in '49 similar to those of 1992, but 

21 also that the material was not readily 

22 dispersable as indicated by the fact that 
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1 levels did not decrease in the 43 years since 

2 the survey.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: NIOSH is not aware 

5 of the clean-up levels that were used at the 

6 time of, you know, standards at the time of 

7 the initial decontamination. However, based 

8 on the July 28, 1949 survey records and 

9 subsequent correspondence, it would appear 

10 that the value used in technical basis 

11 document, which is 11,500 dpm per 100 square 

12 centimeters, is spastic. So that was the 

13 response.

14 DR. MAURO: Okay. So your answer 

15 is -- your response is that you did the '49.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: In this case.

17 DR. MAURO: In this case you --

18 (Simultaneous speaking)

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: When was the 

20 operational period for this, do you know?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, if I could 

22 find it. Oh, so this isn't a TIB-70 issue. 
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1 This is really a specific --

2 DR. MAURO: They have data. You 

3 have '49 data.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: It sounds like the 

5 data we have is from when they were shutting 

6 down, because they said --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: At the end of the 

8 operation period.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: At the end of the 

10 operation.

11 DR. MAURO: Or what effectively 

12 you have done. It's implemented in '70 the 

13 most favorable way you could.

14 MR. SIEBERT: Operationally 47 to 

15 50.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Okay. So 

17 but all I would ask is that -- I don't know if 

18 SC&A has seen those. So can I ask?

19 DR. MAURO: May have sent it 

20 earlier, but I don't know.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the memos 

would be in the SRDB. The August 29th 22 memo 
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1 would be in the SRDB database. And I don't 

2 know who all I sent this to.

3 DR. MAURO: You may have sent it 

4 to --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I sent it to you. 

6 I just did.

7 DR. MAURO: They came in.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I just -- since we 

9 started talking about it.

10 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay.

11 (Simultaneous speaking)

12 DR. MAURO: I can take a look at 

13 it.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: And respond.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I'm going to 

16 put an action in.

17 DR. MAURO: In principle, that 

18 answer sounds pretty good.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, the matrix 

21 that I'm reading from, I just emailed to 

22 everybody here in the room.
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1 MS. BEHLING: Can you include me 

2 on the email, Kathy Behling?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, Kathy, you 

4 weren't in the room, so I didn't, but I will 

5 right now.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Her voice is.

7 MS. BEHLING: See what happens.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what you 

9 get for attending by phone.

10 MS. BEHLING: Thank you.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Now, 121.4 and .5 

12 and .6, I have as a global issue, right? Then 

13 121.7, Doug or John, do you have a response? 

14 I see we have -- this response has been in 

there a while, May 30th 15 .

16 MR. FARVER: Yes, I thought we--

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Or it's NIOSH.

18 MR. FARVER: Yes, it's NIOSH's 

19 response.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. And then do 

21 you have for 121.7?

22 MR. FARVER: I thought we 
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1 concurred with that one.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: You did concur 

3 with that one?

4 MR. FARVER: Yes.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

6 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: 121.8.

8 MEMBER MUNN: We concurred.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: That was like a 

10 summary you sent.

11 MEMBER MUNN: Can we close 7?

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, 7 is closed.

13 MR. FARVER: 8, I guess, you just 

14 close that. I don't know that there is --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, it is kind of 

16 overlapping.

17 MR. FARVER: It shouldn't even be 

18 there.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: So it should just 

20 be deleted, right?

21 MR. FARVER: Yes.

22 DR. MAURO: Delete it.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. No finding. 

2 It's a summary. Okay. Then so we are off 

3 Aliquippa Forge, I guess.

4 DR. MAURO: Simonds Saw.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: 122.1 and this is 

6 Simonds Saw, yes. I think we usually have the 

7 AWEs at the front end of these matrices.

8 DR. MAURO: I usually do, yes.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: Let's first find it. 

11 Ah, yes. I remember this. The -- Simonds 

12 Saw. The way in which external doses from 

13 activity on surfaces emerging were obtained in 

14 Simonds Saw were by hanging 20 film badges.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

16 DR. MAURO: Suspended from the 

17 room.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

19 DR. MAURO: When you read it, it 

20 sounds good. And as far as I'm concerned, 

21 that is the way to do it.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: However, this guy was 

2 a furnace operator. Now, we have information 

3 that the guy that worked with the furnace was 

4 involved in an area where there was residue 

5 and the contamination had a much greater 

6 potential for exposure. And I think, I 

7 believe -- did you -- I would have said rather 

8 than using the median for the full 

9 distribution, which I believe is what was 

10 used, for this guy I would have used a 94 

11 percent out.

12 Because you know, you think of 

13 this room, this big complex and you've got all 

14 these film badge measurements and you look at 

15 the distribution of the film badge 

16 measurements, which are probably a very good 

17 characterization of what the distribution 

18 exposure might have been in that building, but 

19 there are going to be places where it's nasty.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

21 DR. MAURO: At the upper end.

22 Now --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Or beyond the 

2 upper end. But you figure it out there all 

3 the time.

4 DR. MAURO: But if there are 

5 places where there is a high end and if it's 

6 plausible that there are people that could 

7 have worked there for extended periods of time 

8 at the higher end, using the geometric means 

9 really nothing.

10 My observation was we're talking 

11 about a guy who worked as the furnace operator 

12 and we have plenty of data on furnace 

13 operators, that's the nasty place. So not 

14 knowing -- having better information, in this 

15 case, I think using the upper end of the 

16 distribution of the film badge ratings, but 

17 probably would have been more appropriate to 

18 this particular worker.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, this is a 

20 question where I would question whether the 

21 upper end is even bounding for this person, 

22 because of the way you described the, you 
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1 know, exposure measurements from the ceiling. 

2 You are going to get the workers that are 

3 around the areas, but if he is inside and --

4 DR. MAURO: Well, I mean, this 

5 experiment --

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: You need exposure 

7 environment.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes. Well, I mean, I 

9 understand what you're saying.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

11 DR. MAURO: To me, I mean, it's 

12 every time you reach a certain point in these 

13 kinds of reconstruction you say, okay, you 

14 know, what do you do? You know, and yes, it 

15 might be even higher, but, to me, picking off 

16 the upper end where you have a distribution of 

17 values and if there is reason to believe that 

18 the particular person you're dealing with 

19 probably experienced something closer to the 

20 higher end of the distribution than the 

21 median, there's reason to believe that, which 

22 I think there is in this case, I just go -- I 
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1 just say why don't you use a higher end value?

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: But you are not 

3 answering my question. What's your reason to 

4 believe that it's not higher than that?

5 DR. MAURO: I don't have a reason 

6 to believe that.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Well, sure you do.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Because I don't 

9 know what the external exposure rates would be 

10 in that furnace operation compared to the 

11 general --

12 DR. MAURO: Well, we want --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: You take the 

14 general area external rates, basically, is 

15 what you are getting with this.

16 DR. MAURO: Well, you know --

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Those hanging 

18 samples.

19 DR. MAURO: -- in general, the --

20 I think it's bounded. You know that the dose 

21 from an infinite slab --

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. You can 
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1 certainly bound that.

2 DR. MAURO: -- is 2 mr per hour, 

3 at one foot. Okay. Now, so, I mean, you want 

4 to go to the extremes, you can just assume 2 

5 mr per hour at one foot as being the external 

6 exposure, maximum external exposure that a 

7 person possibly could experience in the 

8 uranium facility. Penetrating radiation 2 mr 

9 per hour at one foot, you can't get more than 

10 that.

11 MEMBER MUNN: Right, no.

12 DR. MAURO: And I don't know where 

13 that -- the 90 percentile --

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Which I don't know 

15 what the number is.

16 DR. MAURO: Yes, well, right.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: You know, yes. 

18 That's the only reason I'm raising the 

19 question then for that number.

20 DR. MAURO: Now, I mean, if you 

21 want to get into it, we'll see what number, 

22 you know, what digit you use. Do we have a 
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1 dose rate that they used? What was the -- was 

2 it .26 mr? There it was. I think you used 

3 .26 mr per hour at the geometric -- no, I'm 

4 sorry. For penetrating rates, geometric --

5 okay.

6 I believe, according to the write7 up, you used .26 mr per hour as the geometric 

8 lead. Okay. Now, in my opinion, if you went 

9 with the upper end, what would the upper end 

10 come to? Did I give the number here?

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: I don't believe 

12 you did.

13 DR. MAURO: Okay. Well, anyway, 

14 in theory, it could have been 10 times higher. 

15 In other words, if you wanted to -- say 

16 what's the off the charts highest it could 

17 have been? It could have been 10 times higher 

18 for this guy, you know, if he was 1 foot away 

19 from the infinite slab of uranium.

20 I didn't say that is what you 

21 should use. I just said that --

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think Scott has 
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1 got the numbers.

2 DR. MAURO: Yes, he may have it 

3 there.

4 MR. SIEBERT: Actually, I was 

5 looking at something else.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, you were 

7 looking at something else. Okay. 

8 MR. SIEBERT: To see if we signed 

9 that as a consent or --

10 DR. MAURO: We got the geometric 

11 standard that was -- the geometric standard --

12 okay. If I have a geometric mean of 2.6 mr --

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: .26.

14 DR. MAURO: .26 mr per hour and 

15 the geometric standard deviation of 1.2, are 

16 there any statisticians in the room? What 

would that give you for the 95th 17 percentile?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't do that. 

19 I don't juggle.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Close.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: What is the GSD?

22 DR. MAURO: The little equation.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: GSD was what, 1.?

2 DR. MAURO: 1.2.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: Multiply by 3.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: You take that, you 

take 1.2 to the 3rd 6 power and multiply that 

7 number times the geometric.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes. So instead of 

9 being .26 --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: .6/.7.

11 DR. MAURO: .6/.7. So I would 

12 have come in at .7. You would have come in at 

13 something maybe as high as 2.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, no.

15 DR. MAURO: I mean, that would be 

16 off the charts. Well, as far as I'm 

17 concerned, here is the place where you have to 

18 make a judgment call.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 DR. MAURO: You know, if you would 

21 have went with the upper -- say the 94 

22 percentile or the 84 percent, in other words, 
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1 an upper end number as opposed to the median 

2 number. It probably would have been better 

3 for this guy, because has a furnace operator.

4 If he were like a supervisor that 

5 roamed the floor, you know, he was just sort 

6 of like everywhere, then I would say yes, go 

7 with the geometric mean.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I 

9 understand your point. I understand certainly 

the 95th 10 percentile as you describe it. In 

11 fact, Jim and I have had a recent discussion 

12 about 94 percentiles. And in this instance 

13 where you have a series of measurements and 

14 there is a measurement that you would expect 

15 to relate to the, quote, worst area in the 

16 plant and there is a reasonable likelihood 

17 that people's job put them in that location.

18 DR. MAURO: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Not worst, but 

20 highest measure.

21 DR. MAURO: All right.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: The highest 
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1 measure value.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: That was my 

3 question.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Is does it 

6 represent that? I'm not sure that it does.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And so there is a 

8 chance our person were assigned to work in 

9 something like that, I mean, weren't assigned, 

10 not everybody was assigned to work throughout, 

11 then at that -- that's the kind of thought 

12 process where you can say okay --

13 DR. MAURO: That's just common 

14 sense.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: -- NIOSH 

distribution with the 95th 16 . Okay. So I 

17 understand that.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: So is .7 good?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: When we deal with 

20 these though, let's go context. We're talking 

21 now about the immersion and contamination 

22 dose. Not from standing close to uranium. 
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1 We're talking about immersion and 

2 contamination in a contaminated -- in a 

3 uranium contaminated environment. That's the 

4 component we are talking about.

5 And I think when you start to look 

6 at the value and what, you know, value did we 

7 arrive at, I think you can be informed by what 

8 were the doses that were assigned overall, 

9 because there is also a component in this dose 

10 reconstruction of the dose that the person 

11 got, because they were standing next to the 

12 uranium.

13 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So that's 

15 an additional component that is added in. And 

16 so you take that total external dose --

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, I get you.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: -- where this 

19 model is assigned, I don't even know what it 

20 is, but you take the total external dose model 

21 assigned and compare it to what you know about 

22 measured doses in uranium handling facilities. 
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1 And I think that could be important.

2 DR. MAURO: I really remember 

3 doing this one. The real dose is going to 

4 come -- see that's going to be a small 

5 contributor of the dose.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

7 DR. MAURO: The real dose is that 

8 he was -- he basically worked at -- the fault 

9 exposure matrix in this facility had a person 

10 standing next to what they call these little 

11 rods, billets, billets and rods. In other 

12 words, he was a furnace operator. So his dose 

13 has got -- his real external dose is not going 

14 to come from some residue on the floor.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

16 DR. MAURO: Although, if you go to 

17 .7 mR per hour it might. That's pushing it.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but we'll get 

19 back to my point that I made.

20 DR. MAURO: We'll just have to --

21 but now, the important point is -- though is 

22 the proximity to the rods and billets is where 
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1 you get your external exposure at this 

2 facility. Not so much from residual 

3 radioactivity.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

5 DR. MAURO: Even though our during 

6 operations would -- we're talking during 

7 operations. You can picture during 

8 operations, you've got airborne dust, which is

9 not really going to contribute very much at 

10 all externally. You've got this little dust 

11 on the ground, that's not going to contribute 

12 that much.

13 But then you have billets and rods 

14 and swags --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: And materials.

16 DR. MAURO: -- and the guys up 

17 close in person. Now, in this case, I 

18 remember my concern was there is a default 

19 assumption regarding how much time you spend 

20 next to a rod and how much time you spend next 

21 to a billet.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.
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1 DR. MAURO: And each one is a 

2 pretty -- there is a difference in the dose 

3 rate of about a factor of 2, because of the 

4 geometry. Now, stuff comes back to you. He 

5 is a furnace operator. He is only going to 

6 operate -- he is not going to spend too much 

7 time -- I think he has spent most of his time 

8 with the material that has to be heated before 

9 you roll it out.

10 So it starts with the billet. So 

11 his external exposure is going to get up close 

12 and personal to billets and not rods. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

14 DR. MAURO: All right. Because he

15 is a -- he is heating the stuff up, yes. And 

16 the billets, if I recall, have a higher 

17 exposure rate. Billets have, here it is, an 

18 exposure rate that is about twice the rods. 

19 So the bottom line is I think that if you were 

20 to tailor the dose, in other words, you just 

21 went through the standard approach and the 

22 exposure matrix.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: One size fits all.

2 DR. MAURO: One size fits all. I 

3 would argue that in this case, as a matter of 

4 fact when I -- the write-up says here is a guy 

5 that we have some more information on. He was 

6 a furnace operator. And on that basis, for 

7 two reasons, maybe we could have done a better 

8 job in doing these external exposures.

9 One, the more important one is he 

10 probably spent most of his time next to 

11 billets and not rods where the dose rate is 

12 about twice as high.

13 And second, he probably was in the 

14 area where the residual radioactivity might 

15 have been a little higher for the same 

16 reasons, because, you know, there's a lot of 

17 spark in that junk and they shovel, they use 

18 the furnace also to shovel the residue in.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So, John, 

20 you are under 122.3 really.

21 DR. MAURO: Okay. Well, but yes. 

22 I expect you to --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: So 122.1, I think, 

2 that is right. I was thinking wrong. I was 

3 thinking it was during the residual period.

4 DR. MAURO: This is during 

5 operations.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: This is during 

8 operations.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: I see that's only 

10 from the submersion. I thought it was your 

11 entire area.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes, this is during 

13 operations.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

15 DR. MAURO: 49 was during 

16 operations, right?

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: 49 was during 

19 operations.

20 DR. MAURO: So in the end now, 

21 what we are talking about from an external 

22 point of view, I guess, mainly because of this 
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1 billet versus rod business, we might have 

2 underestimated dose by a factor of 2 external. 

3 How important that is for this guy's cancer, 

4 you know? I'm not sure. But I think you 

5 might have been low by about half.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: You can easily see a 

8 person saying if I wanted to tailor --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: You are saying 

10 billets versus rods, in fact, are two 

11 different -- but what is the actual number for 

12 those?

13 DR. MAURO: You would have to go 

14 to the summary table. Where is the external 

15 summary table? Somewhere are the doses. It's 

16 right in the beginning. 

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, it's more 

18 significant than the submersion issue?

19 DR. MAURO: And internal could be 

20 the whole -- here it is. Internal is an old 

21 dried up newspaper. I need the summary table. 

22 Okay. Here. Okay. You just left it. What 
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1 happened? You know each one of these dose 

2 reconstructions we make like a little summary 

3 table of the contribution from during 

4 operations external, residual versus the 

5 source, you know.

6 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

7 DR. MAURO: And the summary table 

8 is what we're trying to zero-in on and for 

9 some reason it won't stay.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: It won't stay on 

11 the screen. All right. 

12 DR. MAURO: Use the arrow.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'm trying.

14 DR. MAURO: The important point 

15 now when you go through the summary table, if 

16 external exposure is a drive-up, in this case, 

17 and it might be, it may not be, you have to 

18 take a look at the table, but I didn't do it 

19 that way, I swear. 

20 MS. BEHLING: The external is the 

21 driver here.

22 DR. MAURO: So the external is the 
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1 driver. So if you double the external, you're 

2 going to have a significant effect on the 

3 dose. What's the POC? Do you know, Kathy, 

4 off hand?

5 MS. BEHLING: 28 percent.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: 28, yes.

7 DR. MAURO: It may not reverse it.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

9 DR. MAURO: You have to look at 

10 it. I don't know. 28. In other words, it's 

11 not linear.

12 MS. BEHLING: No.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It's not linear.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: So let's go back 

15 to 122.1 though, the submersion dose. Now, 

16 that you realize that -- I mean, it seems like 

17 the heavier weight of the dose is from the 

18 external. The billets -- the rods and the 

19 billets.

20 DR. MAURO: Yes, if you look at--

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: For 122.3 my 

22 resolution right now --
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1 DR. MAURO: Right. The residual -

2 -

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- there is no 

4 resolution. The SC&A feels that it may not be 

5 bounding for this particular worker. That's 

6 for 122.3. But 122.1 I'm going back to the --

7 DR. MAURO: Residual.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- submersion 

9 stuff.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes. In other words, 

11 right now, I'm looking at the summary table. 

12 They assigned 3 rem to the precision 

13 radioactivity period. External drm, that's 

14 residual.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: No.

16 DR. MAURO: Okay. I'm sorry. 

17 Anyway, the dose from operations, when he is 

18 operating, when he is next to the billets and 

19 rods and he is also submersed, that's most of 

20 the dose. It's 8 rem. That -- my guess is 

21 that could easily go into 16 then, if you were 

22 to be able to, you know, use the approach I 
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1 described.

2 And you know, to me, that sounds 

3 like in this case it might be -- it will 

4 certainly drive up the POC, whether it will be 

5 submersed or not. We didn't have this -- I 

6 mean, we never get this kind of detail --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

8 DR. MAURO: -- in these meetings, 

9 but now that we are, you know, I think that's 

10 my problem.

11 MS. BEHLING: This is Kathy. I 

12 guess the question is when -- my question is 

13 NIOSH considered this an overestimate. This 

14 person was a furnace operator. At what point 

would NIOSH have considered the 95th 15

percentile as opposed to the 50th 16 ? Just to 

17 me, it seems like one of those cases you 

should have considered the 95th 18 .

19 I guess, I just -- it's a question 

20 of not necessarily for this case, but what's 

21 the philosophy? At what point -- and at what 

-- who -- what worker would you use 95th 22
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1 percentile?

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, Kathy, as a 

3 general rule, when we write a site profile 

4 dose model for a AWE, we try to write it 

5 sufficiently that it will bound any of the 

6 workers and do a one size fits all dose 

7 reconstruction, because that's just 

8 logistically easier to do that, to make sure 

9 you cover everybody.

10 DR. MAURO: In defense, I mean, of 

11 your position in the write-up, they assume 

12 that the worker -- one size fits all. I think 

13 you spend four hours a day at about 1 foot 

14 from a billet.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Three and a half.

16 DR. MAURO: Three and a half.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Three and a half. 

18 You've got it there. 

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 DR. MAURO: And now, so from that 

21 perspective, the reality is this guy probably 

22 spent most of his time pretty close to the 
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1 billet. Now, whether he spent 6 hours --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 DR. MAURO: No. Probably --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Probably not. 

5 It's pretty hot.

6 DR. MAURO: So what I'm getting at 

7 is we're in a situation where I would think 

8 you step back and look at what you did. Even 

9 though -- you know, within the context of a 

10 model you have built, I think the fundamental 

11 context is favorable. The fact that you would 

12 make an assumption that for all workers, we're 

13 going to assume that 50 percent of the time is 

14 1 foot from a billet, 50 percent of the time 

15 he is 1 foot from a rod.

16 That alone, putting your guy that 

17 close, is itself a conservative assumption. 

18 Now, given that that's your base, that that's 

19 how you are coming at the problem, you know, 

20 then you say to yourself well, now that we 

21 have a guy who we know probably spent most of 

22 his time next to billets and maybe operating 
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1 in an area that had a little bit more 

2 radioactivity because it was a furnace, you 

3 know, does that conservatism -- is that sort 

4 of overarching conservatism built into the 

5 matrix?

6 It is enough to account for the 

7 fact that you really haven't tailor to him, 

8 you know? So you get --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: So that's exactly 

10 the question.

11 DR. MAURO: That's the question.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And so you said --

13 now, you said in your summary that the dose 

14 during operations was something like 8 rem.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: That's the dose. 

17 Do we know how many --

18 DR. MAURO: Oh, the time period? 

19 It's in there. We would have to look at it.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

21 DR. MAURO: Right.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Because of --
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1 recall now, this was an AWE and as I 

2 understand this -- this is just what she was 

3 saying?

4 DR. MAURO: It's usually five 

5 years or whatever.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: This is Simonds 

7 Saw.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: 48 to 57.

9 DR. MAURO: 48 to 56, good guess. 

10 All right, 46 years.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: So for 48 to 57. 

12 That was for operational period or was that 

13 dose?

14 MR. FARVER: That was the 

15 operations.

16 DR. MAURO: This time here.

17 MS. BEHLING: 44 to 69.

18 DR. MAURO: Okay. So we use 

19 different --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: For the 8 year 

21 period there, you've got about a 1 year.

22 DR. MAURO: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So you've 

2 got about a rem a year.

3 DR. MAURO: A rem a year or 2 rem 

4 a year.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Or 2.

6 DR. MAURO: Then you have --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, this is what 

8 -- at Simonds Saw Steel, which, I believe, 

9 mainly gives steel during those eight years.

10 DR. MAURO: That's right. Oh, 

11 yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And it is in the 

13 uranium periodically.

14 DR. MAURO: That's right. That's 

15 right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Now, you 

17 compare those numbers to say the annual doses

18 that Fernald received, workers at Fernald that 

19 machine, end rolls, and heated --

20 DR. MAURO: Everything.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: -- every day all 

22 day long and they are about a rem a year. I 
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1 mean, the highest they saw at the end of --

2 you know, well, actually once the ore was gone 

3 and they weren't dealing with the ore any 

4 more, they were about a rem a year was the 

5 highest photon exposure you ever saw at 

6 Fernald.

7 So given those facts and the fact 

8 that you have a site that is intermittently 

9 using uranium and likely in close proximity 

10 and not with a lot of controls, but give those 

11 facts, we felt like a rem a year probably 

12 would bound even the more highly exposed 

13 people from this intermittent uranium job.

14 And so we felt pretty comfortable 

15 with a rem a year.

16 DR. MAURO: I am completely 

17 sympathetic to your situation. But put 

18 yourself in our situation. We --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Sure.

20 DR. MAURO: -- are getting 

21 exposure matrix. Okay. If you look at the 

22 exposure matrix, and we say this is generally 
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1 the reason, I'll be the first to say assuming 

2 three hours or two and a half, whatever, three 

3 and a half hours per day 1 foot away from the 

4 billet and 1 foot -- that's pretty good. She 

5 is bounded. All right.

6 And there is my frame of reference 

7 now. Within that frame of reference, which is 

8 what you are going to apply to everybody that 

9 works there, okay. Now, then I asked myself 

10 so if I were doing a bunch of people and along 

11 comes a guy that I know did something a little 

12 different which would put him -- you know, in 

13 the end, I would say yes, you're probably 

14 right. No one really got more than that.

15 But at the same time, given the 

16 matrix that we have designed and that were 

17 within that, I have no choice but to say well, 

18 how does -- you know, I have to fact -- if 

19 you're going to use it after everybody, there 

20 will be some people that within that matrix 

21 probably are going to be more toward the 

22 higher end than a couple.
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1 And so in a way, it's almost like 

2 a Catch-22. I agree that your fundamental 

3 nature is claiming favorable. And within that 

4 context, which is a one size fits all, I do 

5 find that well, in this particular person's 

6 situation, I could find some fault where I 

7 could easily say no, maybe we should have 

8 doubled it.

9 But then you counter your argument 

10 the other way and no ones gets through it 

11 every year. I said yes, I have a hard time 

12 arguing with that, but I'm not reviewing it 

13 within that context. I'm reviewing it on its 

14 own merits as an exposure matrix that I'm 

15 going to see whether and how well it applies 

16 to the person that we are reconstructing the 

17 doses for. And so I come up with my findings.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I certainly 

19 understand why you always did, you know, 

20 that's not the issue here. I think in terms 

21 of an action to follow after this and what our 

22 position would be is that we in all these 
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1 instances, when you are trying to reconstruct 

2 a dose from less than -- from less information 

3 than you would like to have, when you come up 

4 with a number, you want to have some sort of 

5 feel good that well, this seems to be like in 

6 the ballpark and we seem like we're not going 

7 to give anybody the short end of the stick by 

8 using this, you know, at the back end.

9 And so when you set up a model, 

10 you know, as you said, you know, we set up 

11 this really favorable time limit there and 

12 then maybe we were not as favorable in 

13 everybody's case as we could be in terms of 

14 what dose reconstruction.

15 But we would recognize that as 

16 well, you know, we are trying to set these 

17 things up appropriately. But having arrived 

18 at a number then on the back end, then you 

19 look and see well, how does this compare with, 

20 you know, what we would expect the experience 

21 to be at sort of this kind of site?

22 In this instance, simply placed at 
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1 uranium all day long every day, got doses up 

2 around a rem, we wouldn't expect these guys to 

3 get a rem of exposure. But since we gave them 

4 a rem, let's leave it there and we will bound 

5 them to this one size fits all. So that's how 

6 we complete these things. That's how we say 

7 okay.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Although that was

9 earlier, so you could say --

10 DR. MAURO: But no wait, let me 

11 finish. There's more to the story.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: They didn't run 

13 all the time.

14 DR. MAURO: No, there's more to 

15 the story.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: Bethlehem Steel that 

18 was in exactly the same situation just there 

19 on weekends. They assigned 2 mR per hour. 

20 The worst possible situation. In that case, 

21 they assumed the guy was 2 -- got 2 mR per 

22 hour which is -- and you can't get worse than 
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1 that.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 DR. MAURO: To an infinite slab. 

4 Now, so what do we do? And this is important.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Back to the issues 

6 there.

7 DR. MAURO: Now, we have parity 

8 issues here, you know.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: I don't know where we 

11 go with this, to tell you the truth. It's a 

12 very difficult situation.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean, I 

14 can take it back and get other people and me 

15 talking about it and maybe get a better 

16 position out of the office, but, you know, 

17 right now, this is me sitting here talking.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: But again, I think 

20 you need -- that's not bad. I mean, that is 

21 an issue to concern yourself with.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: But I think site 

2 to site parity becomes really difficult.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, really 

5 difficult. And yes, we would like to -- and 

6 temporal, you know, parity temporally over the 

7 lifetime of this program becomes very 

8 difficult.

9 DR. MAURO: And I agree.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: So I think that, 

11 you know, from our standpoint, we feel like we 

12 have a dose model there, whether you want to 

13 argue with the dose rate versus time of 

14 exposure kind of trade off that was selected 

15 and say it should have been a combination of 

16 those things, we feel like the end point where 

17 we ended up is bounding when we work 

18 intermittently.

19 DR. MAURO: You know, I have to --

20 maybe it's a packaging problem.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

22 DR. MAURO: You know, when I 
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1 review an AWE, I look at the construct. And 

2 then I look at whether the fundamental 

3 construct is sound. And then I say okay, now 

4 let me apply that construct to this case and 

5 I'll see if, in fact, you are being a claimant 

6 -- site that was claiming failure to this 

7 particular worker.

8 Here is a case, one of the unusual 

9 cases where I found the construct valid, 

10 because, you know, in a lot of cases I don't, 

11 but in this case I found the construct valid, 

12 but as it applied to this case it wasn't.

13 Now, in theory, you could come up 

14 with a construct here that was -- I mean, for 

15 the same reason Bethlehem Steel. Listen, 

16 we're just going to assign everybody to an mR 

17 per hour. That is a valid circumstance. 1 

18 foot away in infinite slab, that's the end of 

19 story, but you didn't. You decide to refine 

20 the construct a little bit.

21 You know, I guess, if you were to 

22 say if this report was listed, we are just 
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1 going to assume that everyone at this place 

2 got one rem marker. You got one rem per year. 

3 Okay. And here is the reason. And you 

4 explore all these different strategies that 

5 you could review. You could go with the 

6 Bethlehem Steel report. Take a look at all 

7 the data.

8 Almost like a concert you go to 

9 with TBD-6000 and say in the end, we're not 

10 going to try to make it too mechanistic, 

11 because once we start getting mechanistic, it 

12 sounds like we are trying to be realistic and 

13 we are trying to really represent what really 

14 happened at this facility.

15 And once you go down that road, 

16 you leave us with no choice but to evaluate it 

17 against that construct and its realism and how 

18 you apply it. So it's a Catch-22, you now.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

20 DR. MAURO: So now, I don't know 

21 if you all are following this, but the -- I 

22 would say that you have adopted a philosophy 
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1 for each site to the best of your ability, 

2 you're going to create an exposure matrix. 

3 And I think that's the right strategy. You do 

4 the best you can to come up with an exposure 

5 matrix for that site. That will be one size 

6 fits all more or less and apply to all 

7 workers.

8 But then I would -- and I think 

9 that's the right strategy to take and not back 

10 off and just universally apply 2 mR per hour 

11 to everybody. I don't think that's right. I 

12 think that you do come up with a construct. 

13 But at the same -- well, once you go down that 

14 road, which is a scientifically sound road, I 

15 think that trying to tailor it to the 

16 particular worker is just simply tweaking the 

17 construct a little bit, which gives it greater 

18 credibility and acceptability to all those 

19 concerned.

20 So in this case, I would -- you 

21 know, even though you could make cogent 

22 arguments Y-2R per year probably doesn't 
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1 really make sense because of the experience, 

2 etcetera, etcetera, and for all the reasons we 

3 are talking about.

4 But I think once you build a 

5 construct that is your fundamental structure, 

6 I think you have got a limiting index. You 

7 build that house and you've got to live in it 

8 now. And sort of -- and then you have to 

9 apply it. And then you have to apply the work 

10 there as best you can.

11 And I think that's the philosophy 

12 of how you come out these AWEs. So as far as 

13 I'm concerned, I think you are on the right 

14 track. I think by building these facility15 specific one size fits all is the right way to 

16 start. But then once you start the 

17 application, I think, if I were doing it, I 

18 would say okay, let me think a little bit 

19 about this particular guy and whether that --

20 how that construct plays out for him.

21 And not back away and say wait a 

22 minute, we don't like the construct in the 
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1 first place. You see, that's what you just 

2 did. You said hey, you know what, really the 

3 --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: But really the 

5 construct is a big deal, right.

6 DR. MAURO: It is. If you build a 

7 contract -- if you build a house --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

9 DR. MAURO: -- you live in it.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that's a good 

11 point.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Is the action item 

13 here though fairly straightforward? Is it not 

14 just simply requiring a response from --

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MEMBER MUNN: -- an appropriate --

17 so basically, we --

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: The validity of 

19 this model for the work.

20 MEMBER MUNN: -- are discussing 

21 here and even if we go the route of saying in 

22 this particular case we had better information 
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1 about the work conditions of this worker.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I think 

3 there is --

4 MEMBER MUNN: And we will 

5 therefore recalculate it and give it a new 

6 number.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I kind of 

8 like John's suggestion. If we can describe, 

9 what are the possible avenues here? What do 

10 we know? What's the compendium information we 

11 now know about the sites that work with this 

12 kind of material? And what kind of options 

13 does that leave us with here? And what else 

14 do we know? And based on that, what are we 

15 going to do?

16 Rather than build a model with 

17 maybe a questionable -- and then maybe, you 

18 know, based on how we build the model doesn't 

19 fit the highly exposed person, and say yes, at 

20 the end, well, it still does anyway.

21 DR. MAURO: Yes, you know, it is 

22 so --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I would love to do 

2 that. You probably don't want me to.

3 DR. MAURO: Well, no, I mean, I 

4 can -- I hear the argument, but then what did 

5 you go to the classroom for?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, all right.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: That covers 122.1 

8 and 3, I think, for both, you know. NIOSH is 

9 going to go back and check on that. 122.4 and 

10 5 are those global issues again. And 122.6 is 

11 I have transferred to the uranium TIB. Is 

12 that TIB-53? I keep forgetting the number on 

13 that.

14 DR. MAURO: That is 53. 

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. The question 

16 now, I'm not even sure that is a TIB-53 issue 

17 though, because your response is fairly 

18 specific in this one. And I don't know if 

19 SC&A had a chance to follow-up on this, but 

20 you're basically saying what you were saying 

21 before, that this stuff came from Fernald and 

22 Hanford and the numbers are consistent with 
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1 the tech-based documents from those sites. 

2 And therefore that's --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: And again, here 

4 was the additional research that was being 

5 done in order to --

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: -- compare the 

8 OTIB --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: -- may, in fact, 

11 reveal additional information that may be 

12 random or it may not.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

14 MEMBER MUNN: So NIOSH intends to 

15 revisit this.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, yes. OTIB17 53 is an active. It's not well --

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right, well --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: -- it=s an active 

20 issue with us right now.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: I guess we will 

22 leave it at TIB-53. We understand that. But 
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1 it may end up being a --

2 MEMBER MUNN: So it will have 

3 bearing on this.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, it will have 

5 bearing on it. It may end up being a site 

6 profile question though.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Maybe a site 

8 profile question.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. Rather 

10 than a --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- resolution.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: The resolution 

14 would be in the Simonds Saw profile.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe there is 

17 one of those.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

19 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I think so.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. 122.7 

21 starts the thorium questions, I think. And I 

22 don't have -- you might have added a response. 
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1 I don't have a NIOSH response.

2 MEMBER MUNN: No, none there.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: I don't have it in 

4 this matrix. I guess that might be an action. 

5 That might be one you overlooked or whatever.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe it is --

7 well, it may be out there for us to provide 

8 something. It may be something that I've got 

9 in a note from the meeting. I, unfortunately, 

10 forgot to bring my notes from our previous 

11 meetings and so I don't have anything. I 

12 don't know if we did anything on that or not.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: I don't have 

14 anything written nor in my updated matrix.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: There were a 

number of things from the August 20th 16 meeting 

17 that I wrote on those notes. I needed to get 

18 additional information.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

20 MR. HINNEFELD: To get back to the 

21 Subcommittee. Some of those got done and not 

22 all of them, I don't think.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: So this may be --

3 I'll have to reconstruct it.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. All 

5 right. Then 122.8 and .9 are again the 

6 standard issues, right, inhalation of and the 

7 resuspended residual --

8 DR. MAURO: One is the resuspend 

9 the --

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. And 

11 ingestion. 122.10, I have no further action, 

12 additional cancer was added in March 2008. So 

13 I have that item as being closed. Is that --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: What number was 

15 that again?

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: 122.10. Interview 

17 information is not consistent with data used 

18 in the DR. And I don't know if you have the 

19 whole finding there, John, but I think --

20 DR. MAURO: I was looking for it, 

21 yes.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I think there 
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1 must have been another cancer.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: There must have 

3 been another cancer.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, and it was 

5 the other day. So that does close it.

6 MEMBER MUNN: So we are waiting 

7 for something for -- data from DOL as to 

8 whether or not this --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: If the claimant --

10 I mean, when a claimant brings this stuff to 

11 us, we always tell them we can't change that. 

12 We will tell DOL that you told us that, but 

13 you need to provide your evidence to DOL. And 

14 I mean we call it a secondary cancer, if they 

15 know what the primary is, is non16 reconstructive. And so someone says well, you 

17 know, I also had cancer of the stomach or 

18 liver. And people already have that 

19 information and actually metastasized from the 

20 primary, that would not change for those 

21 reconstructions.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: So as I understand 
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1 this, if you after this finding came to your 

2 attention, maybe you alerted DOL or --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'm not sure of 

5 what happens.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: -- if we did or 

7 not.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Here is what 

9 happened. I guess it does raise the question 

10 of if something comes out in an interview, 

11 even though it's up to the claimant to bring 

12 that to DOL really wouldn't NIOSH also need to 

13 tell DOL?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. We do. We 

15 tell DOL that --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: -- the claimant 

18 said they have a condition.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. And --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: We tell the 

21 claimant we can't change that, you need to 

22 provide your evidence to the Department of 
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1 Labor.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, right.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Now, once we do 

4 those things, then we can consider ourselves 

5 done.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

7 right.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Presumably, if it 

9 is verified, it will show back up. DOL will 

10 reopen the case and send it back to us to 

11 rework.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: So our only action 

14 here would be that NIOSH confirm that they 

15 have --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, see this

17 is --

18 MEMBER MUNN: -- a record of 

19 notifying DOL.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: We are long after 

21 this. I don't know. I'll have to see. I 

22 don't know what kind of a record we would 
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1 have. We would have -- you know, they have 

2 said this during -- they would have said it 

3 during close out interview. We may or may not 

4 have indicated at the time in the phone log 

5 that we told them.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know what 

8 we indicate in the phone log. And that would 

9 be the only record we would have had.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, I mean, 

11 notification of DOL, not of the claimant.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, I don't know. 

13 Well, again, years ago.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, this -- yes, 

16 the petition might have been later, but I 

17 don't know. I don't know.

18 DR. MAURO: It's in the -- yes.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: It would be worth 

20 looking at the correspondences to see who said 

21 what to whom and when, you know.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Just to verify that 
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1 DOL was notified.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well --

4 MEMBER MUNN: Then this finding 

5 goes away.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm just saying 

7 I'm not 100 percent confident that there was a 

8 communication, because that would be an email 

9 from our PHA to claims persons at the DOL 

10 office. And I don't know that that 

11 necessarily gets into the claimant's claim 

12 box. It would be if the claimant raised this 

13 in -- raised this in interview, just in case 

14 you hadn't heard it before.

15 And, you know, in case you didn't 

16 -- you know, we have told them that they need 

17 to try that. And that was probably the extent 

18 of it and we might not hear anything more.

19 MEMBER MUNN: It should be on 

20 DOL's records, right?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I can't vouch, I 

22 can't speak for their records. I believe our 
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1 records are generally better than their's. So 

2 I don't know. I think I'm just saying --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, it seems 

4 like an original important thing.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm saying that 

6 that will be a -- well, years after the fact, 

7 that's going to be a very difficult thing to 

8 verify.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: And I think if 

11 today if you said can I find some examples of 

12 us doing that, I think it wouldn't be very 

13 long and I would probably be able to get the 

14 interviewers to identify some cases that was 

15 done. Like even ask the interviewers, if that 

16 happens to you today, do you record that in 

17 the telephone logs that they raised this 

18 during the close-out interview and you told 

19 them -- use that to necessarily basically 

20 report it in the close-out interview. I don't 

21 know if it will be or not.

22 So what I'm -- all I'm telling us 
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1 is if this much later trying to document that 

2 that communication happened, would be very 

3 difficult. I don't know that we can verify 

4 that that communication happened.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I had 

6 originally had no further action on this, but 

7 I -- it would be --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, of course 

9 --

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Let's take it to 

11 the Subcommittee.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I'll find out what 

13 I can find out. But I'm just telling you, I 

14 don't have a lot of expectations that there is 

15 going to be this nice crisp trail --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

17 right.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: -- of 

19 communication.

20 DR. MAURO: If it helps at all, 

21 when I review these cases and let's say, in 

22 this case, there is the entire DOL file and 
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1 the entire DOE file.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

3 DR. MAURO: It is all there. 

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: And the 

5 correspondence.

6 DR. MAURO: And all the 

7 correspondence and medical, all the medical 

8 history is there, too.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: All the diagnoses, 

11 when the doctor diagnosed what. It's all 

12 there. And now, the fact that the interviewee 

13 was apparently, I guess, the survivor, I would 

14 have to check, but, said no, there was also a 

15 coma. It may turn out that might have been in 

16 the past disease.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

18 DR. MAURO: And therefore, it was 

19 disregarded and not -- because it was a brain 

20 cancer he said.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: But it should --

22 the point is, it should at least be followed-
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1 up on.

2 DR. MAURO: Yes.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, I think 

4 it's important enough to make sure that that 

5 system is working for the claimant's behalf.

6 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: You know, they are 

8 working with a slew of paperwork and may not 

9 know that they had to resubmit something to 

10 DOL to make sure that -- you know, just get 

11 their report being rejected. They won't, you 

12 know --

13 DR. MAURO: Yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's the worst 

15 case, I guess, you know.

16 MR. KATZ: But to interact, so 

17 that's a lot, too, so sort of separate from 

18 that, there are a lot of cases I have seen 

19 over the past two years with our ombudsman, 

20 Denise, where she has identified with them 

21 perhaps even ones that is in the adjudication 

22 phase with DOL, they will come to Denise and 
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1 say -- and Denise laughs and questions and 

2 finds out that, in fact, there was another 

3 cancer that just never got raised and so on. 

4 And she will send them back to DOL.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think --

6 MR. KATZ: And she will get the 

7 case reopened.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: And I think they 

9 got all the medical records. They've got 

10 everything, you know, and they might not have 

11 got everything or whatever.

12 MR. KATZ: And DOL doesn't always 

13 interpret the medical files correctly as well. 

14 I mean, it happens.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MR. KATZ: In many different ways.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

18 MR. KATZ: Well, I think it's 

19 worth following up on.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: We have -- we 

21 actually do have a note in the telephone log 

22 for this case.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. The system 

2 works.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: But it's not 

4 completely definitive. It identifies that the 

5 claimant's concern was that her father also 

6 had colon cancer and the interviewer advised 

7 her that we do not have a pathology report on 

8 that and DOL cannot accept it. Because DOL 

9 requires medical evidence, they require 

10 evidence of the medical condition.

11 And she said that she understands 

12 that, but she knows he had it. So it doesn't 

13 even say for sure, you know, well, I have 

14 that. I submitted it or she may -- it doesn't 

15 say for sure that I can't get the medical 

16 files, because it was too long ago, which we 

17 hear on occasion.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And so then the 

20 interviewer says I advised her that she can 

21 call the Cleveland DOL on this. So at least 

22 the claimant was advised to go to the 
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1 Department of Labor. Now, whether we made a 

2 communication to the Department of Labor, that 

3 I don't know that I can -- that's what 

4 happened. I don't know.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, then given 

6 the response here though, it's kind of 

7 interesting, because it says additional cancer 

8 was added. So that must have been correct.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, that must be 

10 in something that I don't have.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Unless it was 

12 another type of cancer, it wasn't the colon, 

13 but --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: No, it did come 

15 back to us.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: So the colon did--

17 she might have gone back to her physician.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we will 

19 know.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: If it came back, 

22 we will know what it came back for.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Well, wait. I just 

2 -- what you just said doesn't -- perhaps my 

3 note is incorrect. You said it says here 

4 there was an added cancer and my note says 

5 NIOSH did not have the authority to add cancer 

6 diagnoses.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: We are working 

8 from different matrices.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: See you're working 

11 from the one that I sent.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

13 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Mark is working 

15 from his.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, this -- mine 

17 says that what you are saying, Wanda, but in 

18 the resolution it says an additional cancer 

19 was added. Now, it doesn't say -- maybe I 

20 should specify by DOL in March 2000, you know, 

21 just to be clear.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: But again, Scott 

2 has got the referral here. They had it no 

3 carcinoma of the ilium and large bowel.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: So DOL did get the 

6 evidence, did add it and then so the case came 

7 back to us.

8 DR. MAURO: And it has --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we can tell 

10 you. We will tell you. We cannot tell you 

11 whether it is finally adjudicated, but we can 

12 tell you whether we sent another dose 

13 reconstruction by DOL. Sitting here, I don't 

14 think we can tell you whether it is finally 

15 adjudicated.

16 MEMBER MUNN: It should be the end 

17 of this.

18 DR. MAURO: Of this, on this, yes. 

19 I agree. Our final with DOL.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. No further 

21 action.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: October of this year.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. So there was 

3 a recommended decision, it may or may not be 

4 finally adjudicated.

5 DR. MAURO: That closes this.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. And on 

7 that note, I think it's time for a break. 

8 MEMBER MUNN: Absolutely.

9 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

10 matter went off the record at 2:40 p.m. and 

11 resumed at 2:50 p.m.)

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. All right. 

13 Let's just start on 123.1. This is a --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Fission product.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, this is a 

16 Hanford case, yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Apparently.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: This was the 

19 fission product one. We have -- I have a 

20 referral to NIOSH, TIB-54. NIOSH looking at 

21 TIB-54 as it applies to whole body counting is 

22 my specific comment or resolution.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I think 

2 that's true.

3 MR. SIEBERT: Tate and Liz and I 

4 have talked about it.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: So should that be 

6 part, should that be referred to the 

7 Procedure's Group or not necessarily? Does 

8 that stay here? Wanda wants it. She's saying 

9 -- for those on the phone and can't see Wanda. 

10 She is motioning that yes, bring it on.

11 MEMBER MUNN: I think you have 

12 misinterpreted my intent.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I think that 

14 it sounds like we have -- you know, if what we 

15 have provided here now, I don't know, we 

16 actually provided this before. Yes, we 

provided it on May 30th 17 . So if that's not 

18 sufficiently clear, has there been something 

19 else, you know, further elucidated on that, so 

20 we know what else to provide?

21 MR. FARVER: This is --

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: I wish I 
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1 remembered right now.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: It is. That's my 

3 guess. It is. It's all pre TIB-54.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, okay.

5 DR. MAURO: That was my guess.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

8 MEMBER MUNN: But nevertheless, 

9 pretty comprehensive.

10 MR. FARVER: I believe the 

11 question always comes into account where does 

12 the radionuclide chooser that is used, you 

13 know, that accounts for, in worst case, 

14 radionuclide we will say, but it doesn't 

15 account for the other nuclides not considered.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: I see it.

17 DR. MAURO: In other words, you've 

18 got gross gamma in the urine. You've got a --

19 MR. FARVER: You've talking in 

20 vivo, right?

21 DR. MAURO: The whole body count, 

22 okay. They only look at the one radionuclide?
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1 MR. FARVER: They look at the one 

2 with the, let's see, the highest MDA.

3 MR. SIEBERT: Take the MDA into 

4 account and that determines which would give 

5 the largest dose to the organ.

6 DR. MAURO: The organ.

7 MR. SIEBERT: Right. So they 

8 assign that one across the board.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: So is this a case 

10 where B

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So it's all 

12 less than detectable, right?

13 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, right. 

14 Misdosed.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Misdosed, oh, 

16 okay.

17 MEMBER MUNN: But again, this goes 

18 back to the question which keeps arising in 

19 all our fora which is, in this particular case 

20 that we are looking at right here, would any 

21 other approach be more informative with 

22 respect to the dose to the claimant or would 
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1 any other dose added from any other known or 

2 unknown or imaginary sources significantly 

3 affect the outcome for the claimant?

4 That's really the bottom line 

5 question. Is this sufficient? Unless there 

6 is reason to believe that there were 

7 extraordinary exposures to other less active 

8 radionuclides, those would be very difficult 

9 to take a position that there would be a major 

10 impact on dose.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, Doug, you 

12 should look at the explanation. I mean, I'm 

13 sure you did, but I guess this is -- yes, it's 

14 kind of your theory is that if you are 

15 selecting the one with the highest MDA --

16 MR. FARVER: Oh, okay.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: If you selected 

18 one of the ones -- if you did it equally in 

19 other parts, you know, you would have seen one 

20 of those at a lower level, so your Ce-144 goes 

21 down as well. And the MDs are so far apart 

22 that you got it. You bounded it, right?
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1 MR. SIEBERT: That's what -- if I 

2 remember correctly, we looked at this.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. SIEBERT: And said yes, if we 

5 projected out other radionuclides from that 

6 Ce-144 --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

8 MR. SIEBERT: -- it would have 

9 been shining out and you would have seen it.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

11 MR. SIEBERT: Anything that we did 

12 other than that, would have reduced the dose.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

14 MR. SIEBERT: And took those into 

15 account.

16 MEMBER MUNN: I think Tammy has 

17 something that counts.

18 MR. FARVER: Does OTIB-54 support 

19 this?

20 MR. SIEBERT: I believe that's 

21 where we -- I don't know off the top of my 

22 head.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's the 

2 question.

3 MR. SIEBERT: I think yes.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's where we 

5 ended up the last time, I think, right?

6 MR. SIEBERT: Right, yes. And 

7 that's -- I think that's something we are 

8 looking at with the support.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Like we wanted to 

10 see the background to this and we said yes, 

11 it's probably going to be in the TIB-54 

12 discussion.

13 MR. FARVER: Because it's going to 

14 come up in -- on TIB-58 again.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, and again.

16 MR. SIEBERT: I keep putting 

17 question marks, that's why I want to read it.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I'm going to 

19 leave that resolution the same. And if it's 

20 not covered in TIB-54, we will have to make 

21 sure we bring it back here independently. But 

22 I'm assuming it will come up in that dialogue, 
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1 right? So NIOSH looking at TIB-54 as opposed 

2 to whole body counting.

3 MEMBER MUNN: For reasonableness.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Does that mean 

5 transfer to the Procedure's Work Group then?

6 MEMBER MUNN: No.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Wanda, does it?

8 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, it does.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Transfer to 

10 Procedure's Work Group. 124.1, wow, only one 

11 finding on that one. That's good.

12 MR. SIEBERT: We just pick one, 

13 the worst case.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: This is another.

15 DR. MAURO: Well, before we -- I'm 

16 sorry.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Go ahead, go 

18 ahead. Yes.

19 DR. MAURO: I just want to get it 

20 clear in my head. You take a whole body count 

21 and chest count --

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: -- spectrum. One of 

2 the spikes in there maybe won't --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: You don't get a 

4 spectrum.

5 DR. MAURO: You get it a less 

6 than, there we go.

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's the point.

9 DR. MAURO: Okay. So therefore, 

10 you are given the less than and let's say it 

11 turns out that there is a whole bunch of 

12 radionuclides there, but they are all less 

13 than. Okay. All right. Okay. So therefore, 

14 it's -- you know, you get your background 

15 spike with this Cerium-144, but you really 

16 can't pick out any spike for any one 

17 particular fission product. And there may be 

18 a lot of fission products, such as --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, right.

20 DR. MAURO: -- OTIB-54. Now, what 

21 I'm understanding here is that, okay, what we 

22 are going to do is assume that there is some 
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1 radionuclides there and that they are with any 

2 106 and Cerium-134. Was that what they are 

3 assuming?

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Cerium-144.

5 DR. MAURO: Cerium-144 dose. And 

6 so you say, okay, let's assume that yes, he 

7 does have some body burden.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: At the MD.

9 DR. MAURO: At the MD and for 

10 those two radionuclides. So therefore, you 

11 are assigning the highest possible dose this 

12 guy possibly could have based on the whole 

13 body count for those two radionuclides for one 

14 reason.

15 But now, is it possible that there 

16 may be a number of other radionuclides that 

17 are there that are also below the limits of 

18 protection? I think this is the issue here.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe our 

20 response --

21 DR. MAURO: And that would --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: -- is based on 
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1 some understanding of the relative portion of 

2 the radionuclides process.

3 DR. MAURO: Okay. So --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: So if, in fact, 

5 the one we chose was just at the MDA and the 

6 others were there in their proportion --

7 DR. MAURO: You can't --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: -- they would be 

9 easily detectable on the in vivo.

10 DR. MAURO: Oh, you would see 

11 them. There would be all --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: They have lower --

13 the lower, the more sensitive. I believe 

14 that's the basis here.

15 MR. SIEBERT: It ties a lot of 

16 things together. It's the MDAs, it's the 

17 abundances in the area.

18 DR. MAURO: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And it's the dose 

20 delivered.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Several factors 

22 going on all at once.
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1 DR. MAURO: And that's why I get 

2 confused.

3 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, okay. I got 

4 it.

5 MR. FARVER: Which is okay. And 

6 should that be documented somewhere?

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MR. HINNEFELD: The research from 

9 TIB-54, we hope will define that.

10 DR. MAURO: Oh, 54 should show up, 

11 because you have a spectrum.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll see.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: 124.1, this is 

14 also a Hanford Case. I have SC&A will review 

15 the new DR tool, was my last. Now, you don't 

16 -- you guys don't have this in the matrix, but 

this is in -- from the August 20th 17 is what I 

18 had.

19 MR. FARVER: Yes, I have that.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, and that's in 

21 -- yes. And then on your separate sheet, I 

22 see finding response action closed you say. 
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1 So you must have reviewed the tool.

2 MR. FARVER: Yes.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: And that one page 

4 that you were --

5 MR. FARVER: Now, I can look for 

6 the email for that.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, here is 

8 Doug's response while he is looking for it 

9 says "Reviewed the Hanford Workbook 2.31 and 

10 verified the tool. Appropriate count as zeros 

11 for misdose determination." I've got one page 

12 here.

13 MR. FARVER: Yes, I did do that.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Dated June 18, 

2008. I think the file said June 10th 15 , but 

16 all right.

17 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Do you have that? 

19 I don't want to put words in your mouth. I 

20 think this is your document.

21 MR. FARVER: I'm sure it is.

22 MS. BEHLING: Yes, that's correct.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Everybody has got 

2 Doug's document, but Doug.

3 MS. BEHLING: Yes.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know how you 

5 feel.

6 MEMBER MUNN: As long as it says 

7 closed.

8 MR. FARVER: Well, maybe we should 

9 reopen it. I know I looked at it. And if I 

10 sent an email, someone has that email, then 

11 I'm sure I --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, you had the 

13 document before open, so --

14 MR. FARVER: I had the actions.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, the actions, 

16 that's what they are the actions.

17 MR. FARVER: Yes.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: The top action 

19 124.1.

20 MR. FARVER: Oh, reviewed the 

21 workbook.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. FARVER: Verified the tool. 

2 Oh, I did do that.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. FARVER: Closed.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, closed. All 

6 right. That's the one, yes. So I'm going to 

7 put SC&A reviewed and agrees. Okay. 124.2, I 

8 also have it's the same thing, that you 

9 reviewed the tool.

10 MR. FARVER: Yes.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: And for .3, the 

12 same thing.

13 MR. FARVER: Correct.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: So these all carry 

15 through.

16 MR. SIEBERT: Actually, .3 is the 

17 fission product.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, is it? Maybe 

19 I got carried -- all fission products. Oh, 

20 yes, I was getting carried away with the 

21 committee. Okay. So yes, 124.3 is the 

22 fission product question back to 124.1.
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1 MR. FARVER: 123.1.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'm sorry, 123.1. 

3 Is that fission products, is it a whole body 

4 counting issue though or is it --

5 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- different? 

7 It's still whole body counting?

8 MR. SIEBERT: Right. If the whole 

9 use of the sheets are methodology.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. All right. 

11 Let me just catch up, so I have this.

12 MR. SIEBERT: Using the single 

13 most common tables.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: So that's being 

15 sent to your group, Wanda. All right. 124.4, 

16 NIOSH & SC&A agrees no further action is what 

17 I have.

18 MR. FARVER: Correct.

19 MEMBER MUNN: 123.1, yes, the 

20 OTIB-54.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, OTIB-54.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Right. That's 
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1 Procedure's.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you so much.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: 125.1, we're 

5 rolling right along here. We're on a roll.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Now, I have SC&A 

7 cannot find the 1984 dose. NIOSH will follow8 up on this in the summation doses.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. 

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Again, I didn't 

11 forward this matrix around.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I am having to 

13 reopen mine.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Nothing after 

15 that?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Nothing after the 

17 matrix.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Well, that's not a 

19 response.

20 MR. FARVER: It is acceptable. Do 

21 you want to look up to 1984 dose in the IREP 

22 file? There is none for 1984.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. That's --

2 MR. FARVER: In fact, that was 

3 what it came down to.

4 MEMBER MUNN: So that's the real 

5 point.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: And then I have 

7 that NIOSH will follow-up on this and the 

8 summation of the doses.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, right now, 

10 I'm having trouble finding that one.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: So that's okay.

12 MEMBER MUNN: This again is the 

13 summation. Was it an 84 event? I mean, I 

14 guess, my question is the event is the same 

15 year that you are missing the report? Is that 

16 the point of this?

17 MR. FARVER: I'm not sure which 

18 one you are looking at, Wanda.

19 MEMBER MUNN: 124.4.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, we're on 

21 125.1.

22 MR. FARVER: 125.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: There is no 

3 instrument, no, okay. I was going to say --

4 sorry.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: But 124.4 was 

7 closed. We're on 125.1. And I have NIOSH to 

8 follow-up and, you know, we can just carry it 

9 forward.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: The number we're 

11 on again is?

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: 125.1.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: 125.1.

14 MR. FARVER: If there is an IREP 

15 file, it starts off with like SE something 

16 something and then the Social Security Number?

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

18 MR. FARVER: And in that file, 

19 there did not appear to be a 1984 dose.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. I don't 

21 know if we have to get an answer real-time 

22 either, you know.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. We -- what 

2 was the number of this finding?

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: 125.1. It sounds 

4 like a pretty simply one to follow-up on, so, 

5 you know.

6 MR. FARVER: I know sometimes they 

7 will cut and paste the IREP files together.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, it could have 

9 been.

10 MR. FARVER: And sometimes --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MR. FARVER: Entries and sometimes 

13 there is omissions.

14 MR. SIEBERT: Well, it is 

15 referring to the 121 in there, which is 

16 actually listed. In the RFP it's 1948 instead 

17 of 1984.

18 MR. FARVER: Oh.

19 MR. SIEBERT: And I think the dose 

20 reconstruction was seeing that as being the 

21 1984, but I'll check on that.

22 MR. FARVER: Okay. 
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 125.2 I 

2 have NIOSH and SC&A agree.

3 MR. FARVER: Yes, we do that 

4 occasionally.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: So the NIOSH 

6 response is fine on that. Okay. 125.3, SC&A 

7 to provide IMBA runs for the clarification of 

8 concern

9 MR. SIEBERT: That's on the 

10 seventh set action sheet as well.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, and SC&A 

12 concurs with NIOSH response is what I see.

13 MR. FARVER: Yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

15 MR. FARVER: Original start IMBA 

16 file was corrupt. The SC&A IMBA file, the 

17 support finding was created to agree with and 

18 verify method use in the error report crank 

19 intake using half of the MDA.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So you 

21 relooked at that on the -- well, anyway.

22 MR. FARVER: We basically --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: You looked at 

2 those and you --

3 MR. FARVER: We can't agree with 

4 them without really saying to agree.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. I'm 

6 trying to figure out why we didn't agree the 

7 last time. Well, that's all right. I'll just 

8 take it. The finding is closed. All right. 

9 125.4, NIOSH will provide follow-up 

10 information on why this dose is not included, 

11 even though small -- even though it was a 

12 small dose. Yes, so these are pretty small 

13 doses we are talking about, but the question 

14 is they were probably above the threshold that 

15 should have been included, I guess, is what 

16 SC&A is contending.

17 MR. FARVER: Yes.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: About a millirem.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Again, I 

21 think I'm getting -- I'm capturing a good 

22 update on this matrix, so I'll make sure I 
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1 forward the whole updated matrix out to you 

2 soon, that way, Stu, if you can add this to 

3 your notes, that's probably one to follow-up 

4 on.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Which one?

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: 125.4. And the 

7 very small doses were not included. 125.5, 

8 NIOSH has developed TIB-54, sounds familiar.

9 MR. FARVER: Yes, but this was 

10 also a second issue where the DR states it is 

11 Type S, when it is actually an intake of Type 

12 F.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MEMBER MUNN: F or S?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MR. FARVER: The DR states that 

17 it's an S, but it's -- the actual calculations 

18 are F.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Oh.

21 MR. SIEBERT: It states in the

22 dose reconstruction report.
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1 MR. FARVER: It's an S.

2 MR. SIEBERT: Okay. So it just 

3 may be a typo.

4 MR. FARVER: It may be a typo.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

6 Well, I think I have down here, maybe we might 

7 want to double check this, but I have down 

8 here that SC&A and NIOSH agree that there was 

9 a quality control problem that should have 

10 probably been captured in the peer review 

11 process. I think that's what you are talking 

12 about. The S versus F, but I don't see any --

13 I think we should clarify that. I think it 

14 was -- it might have been a typo, not --

15 MR. FARVER: Oh, not a 

16 calculation.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- a calculation.

18 MR. FARVER: No, no, no, it's not 

19 that it's a calculation.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Right, 

21 right.

22 MR. FARVER: It was different.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 MR. FARVER: Pointed out as being 

3 different.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think we have 

5 got that.

6 MR. FARVER: Right.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: And NIOSH agreed 

8 with that.

9 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: And there is no 

11 further action on it. It's just a typo, yes.

12 MR. FARVER: Right. Because I 

13 also have after it, you know, key weight 

14 concern and that's one you have discussed.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So I'm just 

16 trying to keep current. 125.6, this case will 

17 require rework under PER review and NIOSH will 

18 reexamine the fission product during the 

19 rework. So that's -- this is one of those 

20 again that it is the whole 125 case.

21 MR. FARVER: Yes, there is some 

22 other fission --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: We might have to 

2 deal with how to -- yes. There's other things 

3 in here?

4 MR. FARVER: Yes, it has to do 

5 with his work location and certain areas.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Okay. So 

7 it's beyond just the fission product stuff or 

8 it is --

9 MR. FARVER: The fission products.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh.

11 MR. FARVER: It also has to do 

12 with where he worked.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. But it 

14 might be beyond the --

15 MR. FARVER: Some are monitored 

16 dose involved.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, if it's a 

18 where he worked question and things like that, 

19 you are also talking not TBD, right, in that 

20 case? Because I'm assuming you might have to 

21 use different proportions of --

22 MR. FARVER: Yes.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- radionuclides 

2 depending on locations.

3 MR. FARVER: On the 54?

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: 54 is -- erase all

5 mistakes potentially.

6 DR. MAURO: I think it's based on 

7 the kind of reactor.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

9 DR. MAURO: But it doesn't change 

10 where you are in the building.

11 MR. SIEBERT: No, I think --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, right.

13 MR. SIEBERT: -- when you are 

14 close to the material after removal from the 

15 reactor.

16 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

18 right.

19 DR. MAURO: Okay. Got it.

20 MR. SIEBERT: But there were 

21 situations in 54.

22 DR. MAURO: Okay. 
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1 MR. SIEBERT: And there were also

2 different kinds of reactors, too, if I 

3 remember.

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, but they all --

5 MR. SIEBERT: A couple dimensions 

6 it was.

7 DR. MAURO: Different types of 

8 facilities.

9 MR. SIEBERT: Facilities and also 

10 where in the fuel cycle you are.

11 DR. MAURO: Right..

12 MR. SIEBERT: Okay. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: 125.6 we're doing, 

14 right?

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Correct?

17 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes.

19 MEMBER MUNN: The issue was 

20 unmonitored internal dose.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, including 

22 fission product dose, I guess. I guess my 
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1 question was, was it a TIB-54 question or is 

2 it a --

3 MR. FARVER: No, this is not.

4 MEMBER MUNN: No.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

6 MEMBER MUNN: No.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: I didn't think so, 

8 that's why I was -- but it says this case will 

9 require rework under the PER review. NIOSH 

10 will reexamine the fission product dose during 

11 the rework. Oh, it's requiring rework 

12 probably for Super S, right?

13 MR. FARVER: Right, yes.

14 MR. SIEBERT: And there was a 

15 change in the TBD B

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, okay.

17 MR. SIEBERT: -- when this was 

18 done.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MR. SIEBERT: So now, if we would 

21 apply it, it would probably go way up.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: So that's what 
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1 that -- that's what my --

2 MR. SIEBERT: That's just saying 

3 that we are --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- notation means, 

5 yes.

6 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

7 MR. FARVER: I mean, our concern 

8 was there was no unmonitored fission product 

9 dose for 47 to 48 or any unmonitored dose from 

10 64 to 84.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. And my --

12 and this response is saying they are going to 

13 pick that up when they do the PER review.

14 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MR. FARVER: The high fired.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: I guess the 

18 question would be, you know, the age old 

19 question here is, is it likely to affect the 

20 case or can we close the finding out or, you 

21 know? And I don't know if we can change this 

22 one.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, based on 

2 what I thought beforehand, you could close the 

3 finding, but you would still want to track 

4 this case.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Just in case it's 

7 going to be in the report. Because the issue 

8 here, I believe, was corrected by the change 

9 in the site profile. The dose and the 

10 guidance, isn't that what this says, that it 

11 was done in accordance to the guidance at the 

12 time? The guidance is now different.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. I think 

14 so, yes.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: And so we have 

16 corrected the evolution of findings. Now, of 

17 course, on the other hand --

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Although I'm not 

19 sure --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: -- whether or not 

21 the correction we -- what we changed really, 

22 you know, settles your uneasiness about what 
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1 is done in this case is the issue.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. 

3 DR. MAURO: A couple of -- I mean, 

4 from what I read here, there are a couple of 

5 aspects where it's misdosed, I guess, where it 

6 should have been zeros.

7 MR. FARVER: There was a little 

8 confusion about what the basis was for the 

9 assumptions used in the DR. Were they working 

10 in a reactor area, a separations area.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Just the 

12 tool.

13 MR. FARVER: It wasn't very clear.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: And the overlap of 

15 that, yes.

16 MR. FARVER: So that was part of 

17 it.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

19 MEMBER MUNN: Well, is it the fact 

20 that the assumption made was that he was in 

21 the 100 area all the time? Isn't that pretty 

22 much -- well, why?
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1 MR. FARVER: It must be.

2 MEMBER MUNN: I'm conflicted on 

3 that.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I think what the 

5 issue here is -- I think the issue is going to 

6 be whatever change was made to the site

7 profile, does that resolve this issue?

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, yes.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: It sounds like 

10 maybe not.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know where 

13 we go from here.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know. I'm not 

15 sure we -- I think it's going to be one of 

16 those that is flagged once we --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Do you want me to 

18 look at this again?

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: It sounds like a 

20 winner.

21 MR. FARVER: Yes, you might want 

22 to sharpen the pencil.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: When you are doing 

2 that, Doug, maybe look at since our response 

3 talked about well, it was done in accordance 

4 with the guidance and this time it's now 

5 different, you might check and see whether the 

6 current change in the guidance, like I said, 

7 settles your uneasiness about how this was 

8 done or it still remains.

9 You know, I mean, something is now 

10 done differently, but that's not really fully 

11 explained on why the way we do it now is the 

12 right way to do it.

13 MR. FARVER: Yes, because the 

14 first line of our review says, "We are unable 

15 to determine the exact basis for the intakes 

16 that were assigned."

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And there is 

18 a bit on our response.

19 MR. FARVER: Right.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: So I've got SC&A 

21 will review their finding compared to the 

22 currently available TBD. Is that --
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1 MR. FARVER: Yes, and I will 

2 relook at their response and all that. I'll 

3 just review the whole finding.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

5 MR. FARVER: It's been so long 

6 ago, I don't actually remember it all.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: 125.7, NIOSH and 

8 SC&A agree.

9 MR. FARVER: We agreed.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: 125.8, NIOSH 

11 agrees, case is being reworked under the PER 

12 review. So this is another one that they 

13 agree on the finding and somehow we'll work it 

14 out, so the case gets tracked, every finding. 

15 I have more on this, but it says "Records 

16 will be obtained and considered prior to this 

17 evaluation."

18 DOL did apparently research to 

19 determine employment at NTS, so there must be 

20 some NTS records now available or something.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: It sounds like it, 

22 yes.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: In fact, our 

3 response even says that.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes, I see 

5 that.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We have that NTS 

7 report.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: It was not 

9 included.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: It didn't verify 

11 the employment record.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: So it may be what 

14 we have was the report from Hanford from MPR, 

15 that Hanford sent over was the Hanford case.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. So I mean, 

18 on occasion that's what will happen. There's 

19 always the exposure record, you know, includes 

20 their record. So they may have it. You know, 

21 they may, in fact, provide us with an NTS 

22 report. But once we have dose reconstruction 
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1 where NTS is part of verifying the -- we would 

2 request NTS for exposure. That sounds like 

3 what happened. I don't know. I can't figure 

4 out why else we would have had that, I mean, 

5 that we didn't include.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Then 125.9, I 

7 think we can move on to that, at this point.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: On this one, I

10 also have NIOSH to address was all the data 

11 obtained? Why wasn't this notice in peer 

12 review? Is chronic bounding? That's what I 

13 have from the last meeting.

14 MR. FARVER: Correct.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I have that here. 

16 I guess I need to check and see.

17 MR. FARVER: Yes, yes, yes, I 

18 think that's --

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. I don't want 

20 to guess at that one.

21 MEMBER MUNN: 125.9?

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's a remaining 
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1 action.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: We're going to go 

3 back and -- you know, where we are.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. FARVER: Right. And another 

6 part of that was that about incidents. Family 

7 of the employee was involved in maybe four 

8 incidents. It looks like some airborne, 

9 elevated airborne, positive nasal smears and 

10 then a high dose rate and all these bioassay 

11 says bioassay requested.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. And 

13 the last, yes, thing NIOSH's response says 

14 therefore, any plutonium intakes resulting, in 

15 other words, from any of the four incidents 

16 would have been less than those assigned, 

17 based on the bioassay results. And I think 

18 that was a question is the chronic assumption 

19 bounding? I guess, okay. It's one of those 

20 ones that we commonly do, right?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: You want to test 
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1 whether the incidents are bounded by that.

2 MR. FARVER: And the other 

3 question is three of those incidents were in 

4 1957 and each of those says that bioassay was 

5 requested.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

7 MR. FARVER: There's only one 

8 sample listed in the results for 1957.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right. And 

10 that's why we have that question, do you have 

11 all the results.

12 MR. FARVER: Correct.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. 

14 126.1, a Hanford and INEL case. SC&A agrees 

15 with NIOSH response, no further action.

16 MR. FARVER: Correct.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: 126.2, no further 

18 action for this case, further discussion 

19 needed on -- well, I said no further action. 

20 Then I say further discussion is needed on 

21 TIB-2. And its appropriateness and certainly 

22 that it is bounding. I'm not sure why that is 
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1 in there. Maybe it was no further action for 

2 this case, but that's the general. Did we 

3 review TIB-2?

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, the only problem 

5 we have with TIB-2 is that -- that's just the 

6 fall upper end intake.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

8 right.

9 DR. MAURO: It would have a 

10 certain set.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, yes, where the 

12 TIB-2 is bounding of this certain set.

13 DR. MAURO: Now, the only time you 

14 found that there might be a problem with TIB-2 

15 being bounding had to do with when we were 

16 dealing with raffinates, like raffinates at 

17 Fernald. And I have to say that in my 

18 conversations with Hans and Kathy, well, Kathy 

19 is still on-line, and RJ, we found TIB-2 to be 

20 extremely bounding for the purpose of denial 

21 when you don't have internal use.

22 Except when you are dealing with 
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1 thorium raffinates that, we found that it is 

2 very possible that you could actually have 

3 exposures greater than those associated with 

4 the default TIB-2. That's my recollection of 

5 TIB-2.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: In this case, we are 

8 applying it to worker at Hanford.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: At INEL.

10 DR. MAURO: At INEL. I have to 

11 say I don't have any recollection of 

12 circumstance at INEL that we -- that would 

13 somehow defeat the use of TIB-2. INEL I think 

14 is mainly reactor problems, same kind of

15 problems you would have in some unusual 

16 circumstance.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think I asked 

18 this question of whether this individual was 

19 at CPP.

20 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes, you did.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: That would be my 

22 only concern.
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1 DR. MAURO: That's your question.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

3 DR. MAURO: And CPP --

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: That would be the 

5 only place where it was possible even, you 

6 know.

7 DR. MAURO: Had the --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: And NIOSH does 

9 note that they were never even sampled for 

10 uranium and if they were in that area, you 

11 know. It seems unlikely that they wouldn't 

12 have cut sample for uranium, you know, if they 

13 were in the CPP area.

14 MEMBER MUNN: That was the work 

15 records of the current --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, and I thought 

17 we looked at that. I thought we did see that. 

18 It did say that --

19 DR. MAURO: CPP was a problem, 

20 mainly if you had, I think, iodine. I mean, I 

21 remember the processing spectrum and the big 

22 releases that were the iodine releases.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

2 DR. MAURO: I mean, that was when 

3 you say is there some aberrant situation where 

4 even TDB, even TIB-2 would not do the trick.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: See the reason we came 

7 up with this critique of TIB-2 was the unique 

8 situations associated with raffinates.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, yes.

10 DR. MAURO: Whether or not it 

11 would extend to the chem plant, I would say 

12 even -- I would say unlikely, except for the 

13 iodine problem. That occurs when you have the 

14 raw elements.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Which would -- in 

17 any case, this was the badge worker.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes.

19 MEMBER MUNN: This was the badge 

20 worker, right?

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I think 

22 that's where I got raised.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: You know, just to 

3 make sure. It's likely that it was bounding, 

4 but a unique work history, I think, is why we 

5 put that comment in there, you know.

6 DR. MAURO: In the '50s and the 

7 chem plant sure was a unique work history.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, but they 

10 certainly would have been badged, too.

11 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes, but I guess 

12 we're talking internal.

13 MEMBER MUNN: Well, yes.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: NIOSH is another 

15 story.

16 MR. FARVER: The original finding 

17 had to do with the selection of non-uranium 

18 sites/reactor sites.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MR. FARVER: We thought that it 

21 should have been a uranium site/reactor site. 

22 You know, this is the OTIB-2 deal. And 
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1 that's why NIOSH explains why it --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, okay.

3 MR. FARVER: -- why they chose 

4 what they chose.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

6 MR. FARVER: Which is okay.

7 DR. MAURO: Which is different 

8 than what we are talking.

9 MR. FARVER: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: We're just saying it's 

11 not so much a matter of whether OTIB-2 

12 applies. What I suspect --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: The TIB source.

14 MR. FARVER: Which button you 

15 click.

16 MEMBER MUNN: But we still agree.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: But then beyond 

18 that, we have went in -- we did add that is it 

19 bounding for certain? You know, that was the 

20 question of the work history.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, you may have 

22 also asked, because there is apparently a 
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1 sampling record on this person, because he was 

2 never sampled for uranium, so --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: -- in the sampling 

5 record, why did you use TIB-2?

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, 

7 right.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, that may 

9 have been what they were talking about.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: It could have 

11 been, yes, I know. We have to look back at 

12 the transcript.

13 DR. MAURO: Sure. Well, it was 

14 denied. In TIB-2 we probably -- you know, if 

15 there was a sampling record, we could probably 

16 quickly determine whether or not it could 

17 still be off the charts bounding to the guy.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

19 DR. MAURO: And if it was, end of 

20 story.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

22 MEMBER MUNN: So this is not 
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1 closed then?

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: I guess --

3 MEMBER MUNN: We still have an 

4 outstanding question which is being kicked 

5 around the table here.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I guess we 

7 have an outstanding question. I mean, I did 

8 have no further action on this case, but then 

9 I have contradictory statements in here 

10 really. I thought we still had an outstanding 

11 question about it. I think we should at least 

12 look into that question. Is the TIB-2 

13 bounding for the circumstances or the likely 

14 circumstances?

15 DR. MAURO: And you have a lot of 

16 information. Apparently, there was --

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Does anybody have 

18 the work history of this guy? You're looking 

19 ahead or something? 126, right. What he did 

20 at INEL.

21 MEMBER MUNN: 126.

22 MR. SIEBERT: The employment 
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1 history says the INEL has kept radiation 

2 records.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Maybe the CATI 

4 says that. I forget where -- I thought I saw 

5 something. It should say had urine samples 

6 from INEL that were analyzed for gross beta 

7 and gross gamma. That's per your resolution 

8 or your response. But nothing for uranium, is 

9 there?

10 MR. SIEBERT: There is no internal 

11 information received from INEL.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh. Yes, while at 

13 INEL --

14 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, while at INEL 

15 the energy employee received a urine sample 

16 and analyzed for gross beta and gross gamma.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think we need to 

18 pump in some oxygen into these rooms. Let's 

19 wrap this up and then take five.

20 DR. MAURO: We can only go so far.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Everybody can take 

22 five and then we will try to get as far as we 
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1 can get. There was no supplemental. We've 

2 got the original Idaho that said no reported 

3 external, so we thought there was no 

4 monitoring.

5 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, there was no 

6 internal dose assigned.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Assigned, yes.

8 MR. SIEBERT: It was the original 

9 response.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

11 MR. SIEBERT: And yes, the second 

12 that we have for the actual data, we have the 

13 individual dose has --

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Gross beta.

15 MR. SIEBERT: -- urinalysis.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. SIEBERT: Beta and gamma.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Does it show 

19 work locations on those things or anything 

20 like that?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Let's see. CEA or 

22 CFA?
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1 MEMBER CLAWSON: CFA, Central 

2 Facilities.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Central 

4 Facilities.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: And then the last 

6 entry is for 8 -- yes, they are all -- I think 

7 they are all CFA, except for the last one 

8 there. There are five total. This is from 83 

9 through 85.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, 83 through to 

11 85.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: 53, I'm sorry. 53 

13 to 55. The first four in CFA. The last one 

14 is 83, which is still in that -- either in the 

15 same area of downtown, I guess.

16 DR. MAURO: The Central Facilities 

17 Area? What were they doing there?

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, it looks like 

19 it, but they could have been sent out to.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, they could 

21 have been sent out.

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: See that's where 
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1 area is based on central leasing. And then 

2 went out to all the different sites.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, but it 

4 doesn't say CPP.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: It doesn't say 

6 CPP.

7 DR. MAURO: It could have been.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: CFA.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: It looks likely, I 

10 think, you know.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: And only bioassay 

12 for fission products.

13 DR. MAURO: And --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Beta gamma.

15 DR. MAURO: -- we still don't know 

16 whether or not two of -- OTIB-2 would be 

17 bounding even for a chem plant. I mean, I 

18 only brought that up --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

21 DR. MAURO: It may still be 

22 bounding because of the radionuclides.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, let's leave 

2 that question on the table, I think, for this 

3 one, whether that is bounding in this case.

4 DR. MAURO: There is -- well, 

5 there is 12 radionuclides all of which are 

6 relatively long-lived and it's a big first day 

7 of work or something like that.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: There is 28.

9 DR. MAURO: 28. That's a big 

10 list, yes.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: There is 28 on 

12 fission products.

13 DR. MAURO: Okay. And that was 

14 assigned the first day at work.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And it is 

16 like 110 MPC years.

17 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, all 

19 aggregated together. It's like 110 MPC years.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. So what are 

21 we going to say about 126.2?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: The note I have is 
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1 that there is still a question of NIOSH to 

2 demonstrate that OTIB-2 is bounding, based on 

3 the employee=s work history.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Based on the work 

5 history, yes. It seems less likely now. If 

6 he was really getting higher exposures, I 

7 think he would have been assigned the CPP. 

8 Isn't that usually the case or not 

9 necessarily?

10 MR. FARVER: No.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Could be a 

12 maintenance guy.

13 MEMBER CLAWSON: And earlier, in 

14 the earlier years --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Earlier days, yes.

16 MEMBER CLAWSON: -- the only 

17 people that were in tech are CPP or TRA, but 

18 everybody else would be pulled in from the 

19 Central Facilities.

20 MR. SIEBERT: Okay. What does our 

21 external look like for that area?

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: The external for 
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1 chem plant?

2 MR. SIEBERT: Yes. I mean, 

3 because the guy has no external.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: No recorded 

5 external.

6 MR. SIEBERT: Zero.

7 DR. MAURO: Oh, is that right?

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I would think 

9 if he was going to be internally, he would 

10 have also got --

11 MEMBER CLAWSON: He walked --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: It's very 

13 significant.

14 MEMBER CLAWSON: -- through the 

15 gate at CPP. He got dose.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: So it's less 

17 likely, but you know.

18 MEMBER CLAWSON: I mean, yes, 

19 we're pushing it.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: But I know 

21 something triggered this. Maybe check the 

22 CATI, too, to see what they -- where they said 
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1 they were.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I'll check 

3 the case.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: It doesn't have a 

6 job description or anything.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. I'm 

8 going to --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: We have not pulled 

10 it up yet.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Can we take a very 

12 short break just to stretch our legs? Yes, a 

13 five minute break. And then we will try to --

14 we will go until basically 5:00 or a little 

15 before 5:00, if that's okay with everybody.

16 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

17 matter went off the record at 3:38 p.m. and 

18 resumed at 3:46 p.m.) 

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: We are back on. 

20 127.1, and this is another Hanford case. And 

21 I don't have a NIOSH response on this one, 

22 unless it was added in.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Not even the May 

30th 2 ?

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: No. There is no 

May 30th 4 one.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, well --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, this was --

7 was that the additional information we sent?

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, was it in the 

9 newer version? Okay. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, there was --

11 this is one where after one of these meetings 

12 there was a series of things we probably 

13 provided additional information on. And I did 

14 submit it on the matrix. I'll go back. I'm 

15 doing that all the time, but I submitted it 

16 another way. I submitted it on a different 

17 piece of paper.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And I can't find 

20 it now, but --

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: So it's not in the 

August 20th 22 matrix?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: No.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's somewhere 

3 else?

4 MR. HINNEFELD: No, it's somewhere 

5 else.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Sometimes I print 

8 those off and save them in the file. Oh, 

9 okay. Hey, I'm starting to remember this now. 

10 Yes, we, I believe, sent additional 

11 information somewhere around June. And I 

12 believe what -- this has to do with, I think 

13 whether neutron doses should be included.

14 MR. FARVER: Well, it also relates 

15 to 127.3, 127.5, shallow doses, neutron doses. 

16 I believe that's all. I believe you sent the 

17 information.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. 

19 MR. FARVER: Oh, I don't know. 

20 That's one level. The response is contingent 

21 upon the EU's work location.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and their 
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1 work location was in -- I mean, they were in 

2 the 100 area at Hanford, which is the reactor 

3 general area. But they actually worked in 

4 Building 108F, the biology laboratory.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Is that the reactor?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So that is 

7 a reactor.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, well, it's 

9 adjacent. It's on the same pad. It's not 

10 near the reactor itself.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Because 

12 105F is the reactor building or 108, the F 

13 Building?

14 MEMBER MUNN: No.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: See according to 

16 this --

17 MEMBER MUNN: 105B is the reactor 

18 building.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. According 

20 to this, 108F was where the person worked. 

21 And while that's in the 100 area, it's not 

22 immediately next to the reactor building.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: No, it's not in the 

2 reactor building. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: And so because of 

4 that, even though he worked in the 100 area, 

5 we felt that the neutron dose wouldn't be 

6 included. Okay. 

7 DR. MAURO: So we have a person 

8 here with film badge reading, but no -- the 

9 question is whether it's neutron or --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe that was 

11 the nature of it.

12 DR. MAURO: As a common comment.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: Right.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, apparently, 

16 this is complicated, because there were two of 

17 them already. It was like a rework dose 

18 reconstruction, the one that was reviewed. 

19 Does that sound familiar to you?

20 MR. FARVER: Yes.

21 DR. MAURO: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: And there has been 
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1 some significant changes between the first 

2 version of the dose reconstruction and the 

3 second.

4 MR. SIEBERT: Efficiency methods 

5 versus having to do --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, the first 

7 version used efficiency methods, which 

8 included a lot of stuff, and real conservative 

9 -- I mean, a favorable selection of work 

10 location. They are in the 100 area. We will 

11 put them in the reactor. The reworked version 

12 left that out, because it got up to the --

13 within the 45 to 50 percent number and so we 

14 don't have these -- we don't want to do an 

15 overestimating efficiency method in that 

16 range.

17 So let's find out where they did 

18 work and it turns out while they were in the 

19 100 area they were actually not in the reactor 

20 area. So the neutrons dropped out of the dose 

21 range. And I think some other things probably 

22 did, too.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: So you determined 

2 that by what? By their --

3 MR. SIEBERT: On job title lab 

4 technician work location.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

6 MR. SIEBERT: In Building 108, the 

7 biology lab.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: So yes, but in 

10 terms of the record, we pulled that off.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: It wasn't like a 

12 maintenance person that could have been --

13 right, right, right.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: But it was a lab 

15 technician. 

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: He worked in files 

18 laboratory.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: So I don't know, 

21 right, from reading what I have here, which 

22 record we pulled that off of. I think the --
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1 gosh, I'm not that familiar with the Hanford 

2 dosimetry records. A lot of sites= dosimetry 

3 records are pretty good about -- or are pretty 

4 specific about work location or area that a 

5 person is assigned to. But not all of them. 

6 So I don't remember Hanford that well.

7 MR. FARVER: Yes, the concern was 

8 that you assume the 300 area for the entire 

9 time period when we was working on the 300 

10 area. Now --

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: And it wasn't only 

12 neutrons, did you understand it was for --

13 MR. FARVER: Well, this goes on 

14 about neutrons, because even in the DR it says 

15 the EU was exposed to photon radiation.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. There are 

17 some more of our responses. So the dose 

18 reconstruction does, in fact, use the 300 area 

19 to select the photon energy distribution. And 

20 so for that reason they said we'll just assume 

21 they worked in the 300 area, because that has 

22 the 100 percent, 30 to 250 keV. And 108F if 
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1 you -- if you would use the specific energy 

2 distribution of that, you would have 25 

3 percent, greater than 250 and 75 percent 

4 greater than 250. So the more -- the higher 

5 DCF the more favorable the outcome is 100 

6 percent, 30 to 250, so that was selected in 

7 that range.

8 MR. FARVER: Okay. And part of 

9 the confusion was, like you said, there was a 

10 previous --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

12 MR. FARVER: -- dose 

13 reconstruction performed.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And so --

15 MR. FARVER: With different 

16 assumptions.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: -- while they 

18 worked at 100 and 300, if someone -- the 100 

19 area and that's all you know and you generally 

20 think some neutrons should be included. In 

21 this case, we knew some additional information 

22 about where they worked and they weren't 
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1 around the reactor. So that's why.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: I thought Doug 

3 said also something about shallow doses.

4 MR. FARVER: It goes on to another 

5 finding about shallow dose.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. Separate 

7 from this? Because this says -- this seems 

8 like the overarching one, 127.1.

9 MR. FARVER: Yes, it is.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

11 MEMBER MUNN: I will have to 

12 assert if this was chemical lead technician 

13 and he worked in the 100 area and the 300 

14 area, he would have been in all cases strictly 

15 during laboratory tech work. It would be 

16 highly unlikely he would be in the reactor 

17 area.

18 MR. FARVER: Okay. So the 300 

19 area would be the more appropriate.

20 MEMBER MUNN: The 300 area is 

21 clearly where most of the chemical labs are 

22 located.
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1 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

2 MEMBER MUNN: I shouldn't say 

3 where most of them are. Where a large number 

4 of them are. 

5 DR. MAURO: But in any case, the 

6 neutron exposure would be anticipated for 

7 working in any of these labs.

8 MEMBER MUNN: I would not 

9 anticipate given the information I have heard 

10 here, which was the location.

11 MR. FARVER: Well, actually, some 

12 of these findings hinged on the work location.

13 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

14 MR. FARVER: So once we get that 

15 squared away, that will take care of a couple 

16 of these others.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I put SC&A 

18 will review NIOSH's response, because we 

19 really haven't seen it, so we will get those 

20 in.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: It sounds like it 
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1 is going to get in.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: I'll resend the 

3 latest.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: It sounds like a 

5 laboratory and you've got it pretty well6 documented that it was a laboratory individual 

7 and not likely to have neutrons. And then 

8 we'll move on to these other findings and see 

9 where we stand.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Scott found that 

11 the record of those workers was on the medical 

12 record, on their x-ray record. It has the 

13 Building 108.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, let's just 

15 go through these. 127.2, I have SC&A agrees 

16 that the approach is acceptable for this 

17 situation.

18 MR. FARVER: Yes.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. So SC&A 

20 agreement on that one. 127.3, SC&A will 

21 review further. And you've got a comment on 

22 your sheet.
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1 MR. FARVER: Right. And 

2 basically, this has to do with the shallow 

3 dose calculation whether you use greater than 

4 15 keV or you use less than 30 keV photons. 

5 Photons or electrons. Having to do with 

6 whether you work around plutonium or not, 

7 which goes back to work location, which is 

8 what we just went through.

9 So based on the work location, the 

10 fact that the organ of interest is the breast, 

11 which is handled a little differently, you 

12 know, tech 17. You went back -- I went back 

13 and looked at it and as long as we agree with 

14 the work location, which is 127.1, then 127.3 

15 is fine.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

17 MR. FARVER: In other words --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: And we will 

19 provide you that. And so we'll send --

20 MR. FARVER: In other words, they 

21 calculated the shallow dose in breast based on 

22 not working around plutonium.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 MR. FARVER: Which is correct if 

3 he did actually work in the, you know, 300 

4 area in the correct location.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, but this 

6 other lab, I don't know what he did in the 

7 labs. He or she.

8 MR. FARVER: Right.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: So okay. So we 

10 will just leave it at that then. Check it 

11 contingent upon work location, right?

12 MR. FARVER: Right.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: So we'll include 

14 the record of the work location when we send 

15 our 127.1 talking about the list. Okay. 

16 Okay. 127.4, SC&A agrees, no further action.

17 MR. FARVER: Yes, that's good.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: 127.5, fails to 

19 find missed neutrons. This goes back to 

20 127.1, doesn't it?

21 MR. FARVER: Yes, yes, correct.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. All right. 
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1 127.6, SC&A agrees.

2 MR. FARVER: Correct.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: 127.7, agrees, no 

4 further action. 127.8, I didn't have a NIOSH 

5 response on this. This is the internal --

6 MR. FARVER: Fission product?

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. FARVER: Does this relate to 

9 this work then?

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, in some 

11 fashion.

12 MR. SIEBERT: Where are we?

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: 127.8.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I've got the -- I 

15 originally --

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So we've 

18 got that. Well, we have a response here. It 

19 will be on the additional -- the latest 

20 version of the additional information. I'll 

21 send that back out. Same file, except for 

22 127.1 includes this, our additional 
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1 information on 127.8, which is actually our 

2 initial response. There's no initial response 

3 on the matrix. And in fact 127.9, I guess is 

4 on that same.

5 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Is on that same 

7 piece.

8 MR. SIEBERT: And 10.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: And 10.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: You know what, I 

11 went over 127.5 a little quickly there, 

12 because it is the work location question, but 

13 it is also this Sodium-24 question. Do we 

14 close that out on the activation? I think 

15 NIOSH makes a compelling argument, you know, 

16 that the exposure levels needed to yield this 

17 sort of neutron influx that would activate 

18 enough sodium just aren't available in those 

19 buildings where the person worked. But I 

20 still have that note that NIOSH is saying 

21 we're going to follow-up on that.

22 MR. FARVER: I don't know. This 
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1 is the --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

3 MR. FARVER: -- ending solution. 

4 44 activation question.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, okay.

6 MR. FARVER: And I don't know if 

7 that's ever been discussed, resolved.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, it is 

9 discussed right there in their response.

10 MR. FARVER: Right.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. So we will 

12 just leave it and you can look further at that 

13 or go ahead.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes. Well, it wasn't 

15 resolved at the Hanford issue resolution.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, it hasn't 

17 been?

18 DR. MAURO: No. There is still 

19 some discussion/debate regarding it. However 

20 the Sodium-24 that you observed that people 

21 was due to drinking water versus a neutron 

22 exposure --
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 DR. MAURO: -- I think there has 

3 been a back and forth on that.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 DR. MAURO: We haven't closed it 

6 out.

7 MR. FARVER: Because this came up 

8 during one of our one on one calls recently on 

9 another case we were reviewing. So I don't 

10 know that it has ever been closed out.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. I'm also 

12 going to put a reference into the site profile 

13 review.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes, still active.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right, so 

16 we know to cross-reference that. Okay. I'm 

17 sorry, now, we were ahead to 127.8, 9 and 10, 

18 there's additional information or our initial 

19 response is actually on that additional 

20 information page that I'll resend.

21 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay.
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1 MR. FARVER: And in this case, the 

2 internal dose in products that we were talking 

3 about, I don't know if fission products is the 

4 right term. It has to do with the radon 

5 generator that was used in the 1008F and 

6 Carbon-14 for animal studies and other 

7 nuclides.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Which one are you 

9 on now?

10 MR. FARVER: I believe that was 

11 the one.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: 10.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: 10.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, 10, okay.

16 MR. FARVER: Oh, okay, that's 

17 right. That's not 8.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: And you are going 

19 to -- you've got a response to that, right? 

20 Stu, you're going to research that?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. We are 
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1 just going to pass over those for now until we 

2 get NIOSH's response.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Sure.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: We probably 

5 already have it somewhere, but -- all right. 

6 127.9, is that the same status? There is a 

7 response there. I see, see 127.5 is my note, 

8 NIOSH will follow-up. Are they linked to 

9 127.5?

10 MR. SIEBERT: It is a neutron.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. It's a 

12 neutron, yes. It's the Sodium-24 neutron.

13 MR. SIEBERT: Ingestion from 

14 drinking water.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right. It's a 

16 question of whether it was neutron activation, 

17 right. What, Wanda, I can't hear you.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, I'm muttering to 

19 myself.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, okay.

21 MEMBER MUNN: What 127.9 actually 

22 is about and Scott just said drinking water.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, I think they 

2 assigned it as an ingestion dose. And there 

3 is a question of whether it is neutron 

4 activation caused the Sodium-24.

5 DR. MAURO: The last time this was 

6 discussed, I remember Jim saying that 

7 depending on the location in the plant, I 

8 guess, if you are down gradient, like where 

9 the discharges were, the Columbia River and 

10 other groundwater is being -- the water is 

11 being supplied, it was Sodium-24. And then 

12 there is lots of evidence that the body burden 

13 observed of Sodium-24 is from that water.

14 And at the same time, we were very 

15 much involved in a debate regarding neutron to 

16 photon ratios associated with the reactor=s 

17 exposure. And I remember one of our arguments 

18 were we do have -- that was located at a place 

19 that would have been up gradient of that. And 

20 he has a new Sodium-24 burden.

21 So at least in that case, the --

22 you know, there was no reason to believe that 
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1 he got his water, you know.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

3 DR. MAURO: But since then, okay, 

4 since the subsequent -- about a month ago, 

5 NIOSH issued comprehensive reports on neutron 

6 to photon ratios as measured throughout the 

7 Hanford. And we reviewed it. And we walked 

8 away. I can tell you, of course, the subject 

9 of the procedure -- well, wherever we review, 

10 whether it's the Hanford -- I guess it would 

11 be part.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

13 DR. MAURO: It would be part of 

14 the Hanford. It's unique to Hanford. Sorry.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, yes.

16 DR. MAURO: But I do recall 

17 reading the report. And the report showed 

18 lots and lots of data where neutron spectra, 

19 the right instrumentation was used to get the 

20 full neutron energy spectra and simultaneously 

21 photon information.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.
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1 DR. MAURO: So very good -- it 

2 appeared to us that you had lots and lots of 

3 good data on neutron to photon ratios, except 

4 in the end reactor, I think it was. That was 

5 the only place that had a hole. And which 

6 brings us to a place which says that well, now 

7 that we are in a position to judge what the 

8 true neutron exposures were or the true 

9 neutron to photon ratios were, it sort of --

10 and if we have photon film badge readings and 

11 we have location, we're probably in a really 

12 good position to predict what the neutron 

13 exposures are, which makes the Sodium-24 issue 

14 moot.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, except --

16 DR. MAURO: Because --

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- if you can't 

18 explain that person up gradient. Why they 

19 would have that, you know.

20 MR. FARVER: Well, they were up 

21 gradient, but still in the 100 area.

22 DR. MAURO: Well, good question. 
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1 I don't know.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Maybe not moot, 

3 but I see what you're saying.

4 DR. MAURO: I'm saying that we are 

5 have advanced --

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

7 DR. MAURO: -- the state of 

8 knowledge greatly because of this special 

9 study that -- I guess, these records that you 

10 retrieved on this very subject.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

12 DR. MAURO: I think it's -- and I 

13 recall that being one of the big ticket items 

14 related to the SEC issue. Can you reconstruct 

15 neutron doses?

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: And I think a big 

18 subject is going to be, when the day comes, 

19 that we meet on Hanford, it's going to come to 

20 that. So now, whether or not that is going to 

21 resolve this, I don't know.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Sodium and zinc in 
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1 drinking water, I mean, Hanford included that. 

2 You know, it was -- it showed up on in vivo 

3 counts with some regularity.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

5 DR. MAURO: And there's no doubt 

6 it's true.

7 MEMBER MUNN: And it was reported 

8 to the employees.

9 DR. MAURO: Yes.

10 MEMBER MUNN: You know, everybody 

11 knew that it was in the water.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I remember 

13 specifically, because you know, our, you know, 

14 position was they got that, you know, for our 

15 program. That dose is because they worked at 

16 the plant and so it was part of the dose. And 

17 so we -- they ingested it and so it's an 

18 ingestion.

19 DR. MAURO: You know, absolutely.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: But Hanford had 

21 that. You know, Hanford concluded that there 

22 was -- those radionuclides were in the 
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1 drinking water and they saw it in vivo.

2 DR. MAURO: And we don't dispute 

3 that.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: But that kind of 

5 example that raises the question though if 

6 there is an up gradient, they wouldn't have 

7 got that.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: But when you say 

9 up gradient --

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know, I know.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: In other words --

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: I'm not sure.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: -- the drinking --

14 I remember during the --

15 DR. MAURO: I remember the meeting 

16 very clearly and first of all, it's very 

17 important to point out the only the reason 

18 Sodium-24 issue came up in the first place was 

19 we were offering that up as indirect evidence 

20 that maybe your neutron to photon ratios 

21 aren't trustworthy.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.
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1 DR. MAURO: But it wasn't -- so 

2 now that you have, you know, the data --

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

4 DR. MAURO: -- to justify your 

5 neutron dose, which by the way it did go up on 

6 a factor of two, so in other words it was good 

7 that the data came in.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

9 DR. MAURO: It showed that the 

10 neutron to photon ratio was more than what you 

11 were originally using.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

13 DR. MAURO: Now, as far as the 

14 Sodium-24, remember the only reason Sodium-24 

15 was put on the table in the first place was 

16 that indirect evidence made by -- from the 

17 first spreadsheet. And all we have to say in 

18 defense of our position was, you know, at 

19 least for that particular person, there was 

20 reason to believe that his particular Sodium21 24 body burden may not have been due to 

22 drinking water, but due to neutron to photon.
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1 Now, that's my --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Are you sure of 

3 that?

4 DR. MAURO: My recollection now as 

5 it applies to this particular case, I'm not 

6 too sure, you know, where it takes us.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. We 

8 will leave this one there for now. I mean, 

9 you know, we have the two other responses, 8 

10 and 10, are coming from Stu and 9 is referred 

11 back to 127.5 for now. I don't think we can 

12 take it any further right now here.

13 DR. MAURO: Could I? Let me just 

14 say that so, I mean, just as a -- maybe there 

15 is a way to bring closure. This is the fellow 

16 with the location, right?

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

18 DR. MAURO: Now, if it is 

19 confirmed that he was not in a location that -

20 - where the potential for neutron exposure 

21 would exist, then the Sodium-24 ratio, if it 

22 has been met and measured, then it's just 
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1 certainly a drinking water problem. And you 

2 would reconstruct it the way you normally do 

3 reconstruct Sodium-24.

4 So -- and now, was that what was 

5 done here? The dose was reconstructed, based 

6 on assuming he was -- he ingested Sodium-24?

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that's what 

9 was done, yes.

10 DR. MAURO: Okay. Well, I mean, 

11 that may put -- that may be --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: This was the guy 

13 where we got his 100 work location as the 

14 biology lab.

15 DR. MAURO: Right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: We saw his 

17 medical.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes, once we take the 

19 neutrons out of the equation, if that's 

20 possible, then all of a sudden it becomes a 

21 straightforward dose reconstruction.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Well, there are 
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1 maps, you know.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: For that matter, 

3 you know, when you talk about the up gradient 

4 and down, I thought, you know, the 100 area is 

5 water.

6 DR. MAURO: General, yes. Well, 

7 that --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what I 

9 thought.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes, I remember that 

11 being said after meeting --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Because 

13 theoretically, I don't know how many well 

14 fields or what the well situation was at 

15 Hanford.

16 DR. MAURO: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, I would 

18 expect you would have a lot of well fields. 

19 But when you distribute, I mean, when you have 

20 100 water supply or just --

21 MEMBER MUNN: Virtually all of the 

22 drinking water.
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1 DR. MAURO: There's no escaping. 

2 They're the same.

3 MEMBER MUNN: For the reactor, the 

4 water all came out of Columbia. And the 

5 uranium content of the water there was still 

6 relatively high, because it came across the 

7 uranium bed up in Canada.

8 DR. MAURO: Right.

9 MEMBER MUNN: But most of the 

10 drinking water for the reactor site, unless 

11 this person was somewhere other than that --

12 DR. MAURO: That was not --

13 MEMBER MUNN: -- reactor site.

14 DR. MAURO: I do clearly remember 

15 the argument that you made. This particular 

16 person was not at a location where you would 

17 expect his drinking water contained Sodium-24. 

18 I remember that was --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I do remember that 

20 argument and I just remember that --

21 DR. MAURO: Whether it is true or 

22 not, I don't know.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I think 

2 programmatically, we adopted this based on 

3 Hanford's conclusion that the drinking water 

4 is some part of the --

5 DR. MAURO: And we don't dispute 

6 that.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: -- was -- had this 

8 radionuclides in it.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: And based on that 

11 conclusion and it's showing up -- because it 

12 showed up regularly in in vivo counts, that's 

13 how we determined it. That's how we interpret 

14 that result.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, it's 

17 certainly a thread -- string that has got to 

18 be pulled, but you are doing that in the site 

19 profile review, I think.

20 DR. MAURO: That has got -- yes. 

21 Now, when we -- yes, that one -- when we get 

22 back to the site profile, let's say we close 
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1 that out.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's all right.

3 DR. MAURO: We can close out --

4 let's say we close out the neutron/photon 

5 issue.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: And that really will 

8 need direct -- I mean, close it out good. 

9 What really is at play here is to make sure 

10 this fellow wasn't exposed to neutrons where 

11 his location was. And that makes this all 

12 moot. It doesn't apply to him. Obviously, if 

13 we've got Sodium-24, it has to be due to the 

14 drinking water.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. Okay. 

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. 

17 127.11, two more findings in this case. 

18 Breath sample monitoring reported in CATI. I 

19 have NIOSH will follow-up on whether radon 

20 breath testing occurred in the 300 area. 

21 Well, 300 area. I guess, he was in the 300 

22 and the 100 area, right? But anyway, and what 
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1 potential radium source term existed? Modify 

2 response.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I've got nothing 

4 new out for that one.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: So they -- I guess 

6 the person claimed in their CATI that they 

7 have radon breath samples?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Sounds like it.

9 DR. MAURO: Yes.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Maybe they were --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: No, they said they 

12 were -- they gave breath samples.

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, breath 

14 samples.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: It doesn't say 

16 radon specifically.

17 DR. MAURO: Correct.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. So that's 

19 just a follow-up on that. You'll still treat 

20 that as an action, yes.

21 MEMBER MUNN: NIOSH will follow 

22 up, right?
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: I think my thought 

3 of that is when you ask someone if they left a 

4 breath sample, they may be thinking of a 

5 spirometry test.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: That's normally, 

8 because I mean, breath samples were not very 

9 common, yes.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, that's right.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: NIOSH failed to --

12 127.12, I'm sorry, NIOSH failed to properly 

13 address incident report in two CATI reports. 

14 Why are there two CATI reports?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Two survivors.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Two survivors, 

17 okay. And you had a follow-up action on this.

18 MEMBER MUNN: That kind of 

19 contamination event ought to be in the work 

20 record.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: This was a 

22 contamination event?
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, they were 

2 pretty good about that. At least your 

3 response seems to make it sound so. 

4 Contamination event investigation.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

6 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Can you pull up 

8 the CATI and see what kind of -- what they are 

9 talking about?

10 MEMBER MUNN: Give me a second.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: And you're saying 

12 nothing of this type was mentioned. You know, 

13 here is one of my standard sub-20 questions. 

14 Did you interview coworkers?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but you know, 

16 this -- when did this happen?

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: This was early on.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: This was pretty 

19 early, right?

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: You're asking 

22 people to remember an awful lot.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know, I know. 

2 It would have to be a very memorable --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Memorable. I 

4 mean, a really serious event.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, right.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Especially if the 

8 incident were just a minor incident.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, most of us.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think 

12 remember contamination events.

13 MEMBER MUNN: Contamination to 

14 that area of the body is highly unusual.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, then you 

16 should retract that statement in the middle of 

17 your response, too, because you say no 

18 incident of this type was reported by any 

19 other telephone interviews. Well, they are 

20 not likely to.

21 MR. FARVER: Apparently, in the 

22 January report there is an incident identified 
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1 in the 300 area. There was a leak in the 300 

2 area when he was working in the lab. It 

3 turned his hair orange for a while. It's 

4 uncertain if the employee was directly 

5 involved in the incident. This occurred in 

6 the '80s. So that's one statement in the 

7 CATI.

8 MEMBER MUNN: And they don't know 

9 what kind of leak? In a 300 area lab, but not 

10 reported.

11 MR. FARVER: Now, on the second 

12 one, another survivor, apparently, there was 

13 three CATI reports, three survivors. Another 

14 one reported something was found in a wall and 

15 everyone was sent home. The EE's hair turned 

16 orange the one day at work and remained that 

17 way for some time. So there is two separate 

18 survivors.

19 MEMBER MUNN: I can assure you 

20 that the finding in the wall, which was well21 publicized in the '80s, was not a toxic 

22 substance nor was it radioactive. And so the 
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1 --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: What was the 

3 finding in the wall?

4 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, it was some 

5 minor thing. Somebody had just set something 

6 there and it was -- they plastered -- it was 

7 nothing of that, but they got all -- it was 

8 well --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

10 MEMBER MUNN: The --

11 MR. FARVER: Hair turned orange.

12 MEMBER MUNN: The hair turned 

13 orange.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I want to 

15 hear more about that.

16 MEMBER MUNN: It would not have 

17 been related to that particular incident.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

19 MEMBER MUNN: Although it was 

20 mentioned.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: No radiation?

22 MEMBER MUNN: It would not have 
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1 been.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: It would have to 

3 be some chemical or something.

4 MR. FARVER: Oh, no doubt.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

6 MR. FARVER: A chemical. The 

7 point was these things are identified in the 

8 CATI reports.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

10 MR. FARVER: And no action was 

11 taken.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. 

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we will 

14 agree that everything in the CATI should be 

15 addressed with dose reconstruction.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: And what I just 

17 heard Wanda say this was a well-publicized 

18 incident in 1980, so it can be tracked back.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. You know, 

20 maybe it's like she said, it's non21 radiological, non-toxic, whatever, you know. 

22 Maybe they are tying two things together that 
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1 don't go together, you know.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, that's my 

3 thought.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: But I mean, at 

5 least you can pursue that, I guess.

6 MR. FARVER: And even if it is 

7 just something to say we have reviewed these 

8 two things.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 MR. FARVER: And most likely it 

11 may have been a chemical reaction.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: If we were doing 

13 this dose reconstruction thing, we would --

14 the dose reconstruction we are talking about 

15 both these things, and it would say something 

16 -- it would probably say that the orange hair 

17 was probably due to an interaction with some 

18 chemical, but not really to exposure, and the 

19 item found in the wall and the building 

20 evacuation for that purpose would not have 

21 caused an official dose. The person was 

22 monitored after all. The person worked on 
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1 badge.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: But you wouldn't 

3 investigate any further?

4 MR. HINNEFELD: No.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: You would just 

6 change the wording?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: We would. Yes. 

8 I'll tell you what --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: But I mean --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: -- Mark, we will 

11 not chase something like this down. Because 

12 you can say it's well-publicized and he has 

13 had five on one hand, that doesn't mean you 

14 can do it in a 10 or 15 minute phone call.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: No, I know.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: There's a lot of 

17 work involved.

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And we would not 

20 choose to invest that work to chase something 

21 down that we are confident isn't going to 

22 change the dose reconstruction, because 
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1 there's sufficient conservatism in the dose 

2 reconstruction to say it is good enough.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh. And that goes 

4 back to my general question, which you guys 

5 have on the record several times, which is 

6 when will you chase one down? You know, I 

7 think a handful is the answer I've gotten. 

8 That you will actually call coworkers or 

9 something to verify something.

10 You know, you can't always assume 

11 that these -- remembering incidences are 

12 bounded by chronic intake film. You know, 

13 that doesn't always answer the question.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: It could very well 

15 be.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: You know, I --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: That could very 

18 well be.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- am agreeing 

20 that, you know, this one, the way it sounds 

21 doesn't sound to me like there is probably 

22 anything there, you know.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I can tell you one 

2 example when we called a coworker. There was 

3 a guy who said he was involved in an event, in 

4 a reactor at Savannah River. And that 

5 reactor, I forget which one it was, but it was 

6 damaged and shutdown for a while. And so I 

7 said let's call these coworkers.

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Nobody remembered.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. Right, 

11 right.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

13 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MR. FARVER: Yes, but the point is 

15 you called and you followed-up.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

17 MR. FARVER: You couldn't confirm 

18 it, so you just -- you don't --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 MR. FARVER: You can ignore it 

21 then, because you didn=t do follow-up.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Again though, we 
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1 invested days.

2 MR. FARVER: Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: And to say that --

4 now that one struck me.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: It's a judgment 

6 call really.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yes. That 

8 one struck me, well, the reactor is damaged.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: There was 

11 collaboration.

12 MR. FARVER: There is enough 

13 evidence.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: There was a 

15 collaborating circumstance that gave 

16 credibility to a serious event.

17 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. 

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: And those 

21 circumstances, I think, is where we would 

22 call.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: And that was all 

2 for 127. So where do we stand with that one 

3 then?

4 MR. FARVER: On that one?

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

6 MR. FARVER: I don't believe that 

7 we --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, I have it 

9 NIOSH will follow-up for more information, but 

10 I'm not sure that --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe what I 

12 thought our resolution was is we agree that we 

13 should have written the dose reconstruction 

14 better.

15 MR. FARVER: And the second part 

16 that I have here was, you know, how did that 

17 make it through QA? You know, the CATI --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well --

19 MR. FARVER: -- should have been 

20 reviewed.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: -- at the time 

22 that this was done, we didn't have our full 
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1 standing order to signify --

2 MR. FARVER: Okay. Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: -- that's how it 

4 would have been done through QA.

5 MR. FARVER: Okay. 

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

7 MR. FARVER: A lot of times the 

8 reason we bring this up is because when the 

9 survivors get the report back and it says 

10 there were no incidents identified --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

12 MR. FARVER: -- and they say well, 

13 we told you about it.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

15 MR. FARVER: It takes away 

16 credibility from the program.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: That's exactly 

18 right.

19 MR. FARVER: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That is exactly 

21 right. And that's why we changed it. Well, 

22 just because it would be a better -- well I 
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1 was going to say better person, actually a 

2 better person, to do this job better is why we 

3 changed it.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Let's see, I guess 

5 we can go a little farther.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: If this group goes 

7 to 140 again --

8 CHAIR GRIFFON: I know, I know. 

9 This might be the -- let's just call this the 

10 last one. We're not going to get through the 

11 whole matrix, so, you know, let's try to get 

12 through 128 and call it a day.

13 MR. FARVER: Okay. You heard him. 

14 He said he was going to call it a day after 

15 this one.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, it's on the 

17 record. You can play it back. All right. 

18 128.1, NIOSH has revised their tool, 

19 compensable case. Oh, this one is no further 

20 action. 128.2, oh, you looked ahead, huh, 

21 John?

22 DR. MAURO: Yes. Smiling from ear 
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1 to ear.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: No further action 

3 is on 128.2, the same thing. 128.3, NIOSH 

4 agrees, NIOSH reassessed and had no effect on 

5 the case. That's for 128.3. 128.4, boy, I'm 

6 letting you guys off too easy, NIOSH agrees, 

7 NIOSH reassessed and had no effect on the 

8 case. That was a quickie.

9 I see no reason to plunge on 

10 forward. We're not going to finish the 

11 matrix. So we will still stick to that. Yes, 

12 let's stop here. We will stop here, so I can 

13 save everything.

14 All right. So we have some 

15 actions, right. What I'll do is -- and I 

16 apologize for not having current versions of 

17 the sixth and seventh matrix, but I've got 

18 like two things to consolidate for the sixth 

19 matrix and pull them together into a final 

20 form electronic version. And it should be a 

21 little easier on the seventh matrix for me to 

22 pull it together, because I've got -- I was 
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1 making my updates on the computer. And once I 

2 get a few things from Stu on the other NIOSH 

3 responses --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, the missing 

5 initial responses. Do you want me to put 

6 those in the matrix, in a matrix and send them 

7 to you or just give you -- you know, maybe 

8 those pieces of the matrix?

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Why don't you give 

10 me the pieces, yes.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Because otherwise 

13 I'll have to cut and paste anyway.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I'll just 

15 give you those pieces.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: That would be 

17 great, yes. And final item maybe if we can 

18 look at calendars for January? I don't know 

19 what exists on the calendar now to get a sense 

20 of --

21 MR. KATZ: In January, there is a 

work group meeting, Pinellas, on the 8th 22 .
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CHAIR GRIFFON: 8th 1 .

2 MR. KATZ: That's the only thing 

3 scheduled so far.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think we want to 

5 go beyond there anyway, at least I do. We 

6 don't want to be before that.

7 MR. KATZ: No. It's a nightmare 

8 before that.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 MR. KATZ: Because of Christmas 

11 and New Years.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right, right.

13 MR. KATZ: Then you're right 

14 there.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. Let's 

16 see.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Has the Board 

called a conference on January 13th 18 ?

19 MR. KATZ: That's canceled.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Is it canceled?

21 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes, I think that issue 
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1 was sent out, I think, today.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Or if she did send 

3 something, I haven't opened it.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Does the Board have 

the 19th 5 off?

MS. HOWELL: The 19th and 20th 6 .

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: What? Huh?

8 MS. HOWELL: If you are in D.C., 

the 20th 9 is a holiday.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, Inauguration 

11 Day.

12 MS. HOWELL: Because you can't get 

13 anywhere.

CHAIR GRIFFON: How about the 15th 14 ? 

Thursday the 15th 15 or is that too soon? I 

16 mean, we've got a meeting coming up and then 

17 we got the holidays. Is it just too -- yes, 

18 let's do it towards the end of the month then. 

How about Thursday the 29th 19 ? I like 

20 Thursdays.

21 MEMBER MUNN: Why?

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: I don't know, but 
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1 it's --

2 MEMBER MUNN: Well, shoot.

MR. KATZ: Thursday the 29th 3 ?

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. KATZ: That looks okay to me.

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: That works so far? 

7 It's good to get it on the calendar now, 

8 before the meeting comes up next week and 

9 we'll be throwing it up, I'm sure.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Now, let me ask a 

11 question. Why do you not like Fridays?

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Nobody likes 

13 Fridays.

14 MS. HOWELL: Traveling on Fridays.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, traveling on 

16 Fridays is very unpleasant.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Well, yes, but how 

18 many of you have to travel on Friday?

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: You have to 

20 travel.

21 CHAIR GRIFFON: Okay. I got it 

22 anyway. Cincinnati, 9:30, standard.
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1 MR. KATZ: Is that good?

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. 

January 29th 3 . Okay. 

4 MS. HOWELL: Is that going to give 

5 you enough time to get stuff together for the 

6 February Board meeting?

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: The February Board 

8 meeting is pretty much -- is the week of 

9 President's Day.

10 MS. HOWELL: Will that be enough 

11 time?

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, that's three 

13 weeks later.

14 MEMBER MUNN: No, just two weeks 

15 really.

CHAIR GRIFFON: The 20th 16 then.

MR. KATZ: Isn't it the 18th 17 and 

19th 18 , something like that?

19 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, two weeks out.

CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, 17th 20 through 

the 19th 21 .

22 MR. KATZ: Okay. In between 2:00 
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1 and 3:00.

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: I better put that 

3 up on my calendar. It wasn't even on here.

4 MR. KATZ: That's in Albuquerque.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

MEMBER MUNN: 17th 6 .

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, Albuquerque. 

8 You're making me travel, too.

9 MEMBER CLAWSON: Oh, wait a 

10 minute. Let me break it to you. Let me break 

11 out of here.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I'm all for 

13 that.

14 MR. KATZ: So are you going to 

15 try, Mark, to do the beta testing or whatever?

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. KATZ: Prior to that?

18 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, I'll work 

19 with Kathy. And I might tap into Wanda's 

20 experience from the Procedure's Work Group, 

21 you know, if --

22 MEMBER MUNN: Thanks a lot.
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1 MR. KATZ: I'll just put it on my 

2 calendar now and block out that date.

3 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, she will have 

4 to run through.

5 DR. MAURO: Data loading is 

6 difficult. In other words, what are you going 

7 to load? I don't know how far back you can 

8 go.

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: Unless you just want 

11 to start with this, you know.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, yes. I'll 

13 talk to Kathy and Steve about that, right?

14 DR. MAURO: Yes, Steve -- Kathy 

15 and Steve.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Why is data --

17 well, anyway, I'll talk --

18 DR. MAURO: Well pulling, you know, 

19 the information that is on the current 

20 spreadsheets, and all the different 

21 spreadsheets that are out there.

22 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: See remember --

2 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, yes, yes. You 

3 want to get your iterations or responses, yes, 

4 yes.

5 DR. MAURO: What I ended up doing 

6 anyway with the procedures --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: I mean, the --

8 DR. MAURO: -- there were early 

9 procedure meetings. I didn't try to capture 

10 them.

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

12 DR. MAURO: What was in that one. 

13 So I picked it up and I said, you know, we're 

14 picking it up from here.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, no, no. I 

16 think we'll do the same thing. I think what I 

17 would like to do --

18 DR. MAURO: -- actually the one 

19 before.

20 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, my goal 

21 would be for Kathy and the database going 

22 forward would be the first five have them as, 
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1 basically, final products done.

2 DR. MAURO: They're done, 

3 delivered.

4 CHAIR GRIFFON: Put them in the 

5 database, but don't put all the --

6 DR. MAURO: Yes, and --

7 CHAIR GRIFFON: -- iterative 

8 stuff.

9 DR. MAURO: No, don't put any.

10 CHAIR GRIFFON: Then going forward 

11 do the --

12 DR. MAURO: Pick it up from the 

13 sixth on, because we've got it.

14 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

17 DR. MAURO: Which is still a big 

18 job.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: That's still a big 

20 job, but the first five should be no problem.

21 DR. MAURO: Well, in theory, it's 

22 closed out with the delivery.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: Right.

2 DR. MAURO: Well, the only problem 

3 is the only record -- the record you have of 

4 the first five --

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: -- is the transcripts. 

7 I mean, that's really what you have as a 

8 complete record of what --

9 CHAIR GRIFFON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: -- how you got to the 

11 first five.

12 CHAIR GRIFFON: But you don't --

13 yes, but we don't -- I don't expect you to go 

14 back further for that.

15 DR. MAURO: No, no.

16 CHAIR GRIFFON: No.

17 MS. BEHLING: Perhaps we can just 

18 pull information off the matrix.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Well, we do, yes. 

20 You can basically import it. The problem, I 

21 think, is going to be the last column. We 

22 will have to probably go in and edit that to 
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1 be consistent with the procedures. You know, 

2 closed, in abeyance, whatever the terminology 

3 that we need there. So that we B- they can 

4 track or whatever, yes.

5 MS. BEHLING: Okay. 

6 CHAIR GRIFFON: All right. We 

7 will work on that in between these meetings.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. Don't be 

9 surprised if I try to schedule a decision 

meeting on the 28th 10 .

11 CHAIR GRIFFON: You're going to 

12 double team it again?

13 MEMBER MUNN: If I'm going to come 

14 across it, I might just as well.

15 CHAIR GRIFFON: Is that a Friday 

16 or the Wednesday?

17 MEMBER MUNN: That would be 

18 Wednesday.

19 CHAIR GRIFFON: Oh, that would 

20 work, I think, for me. I hear you, okay.

21 MEMBER MUNN: We will know that 

22 tomorrow.
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1 CHAIR GRIFFON: I think that's it.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Thanks, Mark.

3 MS. BEHLING: All right. Thank 

4 you.

5 CHAIR GRIFFON: Good work. 

6 Meeting adjourned.

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

8 matter went off the record at 4:34 p.m.)

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