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has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally identifiable 

information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been reviewed and 

certified by the Chair of the Santa Susana Work Group for accuracy at this time. The reader 

should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

1 

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

SANTA SUSANA FIELD LABORATORY WORK GROUP

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

OCTOBER 16, 2014

+ + + + +

The Work Group convened via 

teleconference at 11:00 a.m. Eastern Daylight 

Time, Philip Schofield, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

PHILIP SCHOFIELD, Chairman

HENRY ANDERSON, Member

JOSIE BEACH, Member

WANDA MUNN, Member

LORETTA VALERIO, Member
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2 

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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

MATTHEW ARNO, ORAU Team

BOB BARTON, SC&A

TERRIE BARRIE

HANS BEHLING, SC&A

MILTON GORDON, SC&A

LARA HUGHES, DCAS

BONNIE KLEA

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

JENNY LIN, HHS

JIM NETON, DCAS

JOHN PACE

MATTHEW SMITH, ORAU Team

JOHN STIVER, SC&A

DENNIS STRENGE, ORAU Team

ABE ZEITOUN, SC&A
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should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

3 

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 T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

PAGE

Welcome and Roll Call

Ted Katz,

Designated Federal Official.......... 4 

Opening Remarks

Chairman, Philip Schofield........... 6 

Discussion:

 I. Recap of WG Activities B status

 as of last meeting (April 2010)

 John Stiver, ........................... 7 

 II. NIOSH status/update(s) since

 last meeting, Dr. Lara Hughes ......... 16

 III. SC&A status / update(s)

 since last meeting, Dr. John Stiver ... 26

 IV. Discussion of unresolved,

 Open issues ........................... 60

 Taskings .............................. 90

 V. Plans for LA Board meeting

 and site tour: November 5-6, 2014 ..... 83

 VI. Actions / path forward,

 schedule next meeting ................. 91

 VII. Comments from SSFL

 petitioner/stakeholders ............... 93
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4 

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 VIII. Adjourn ....................... 119
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

(11:00 a.m.)

MR. KATZ: Okay, it's 11:00 so 

let's get started. Let's begin, this is Ted 

Katz. I'm with the Advisory Board Radiation 

and Worker Health, this is the Santa Susana Work 

Group and before I do roll call, just a general 

announcement.

The materials related to, or being 

discussed in this call are posted on the NIOSH 

website, along with the agenda for this meeting 

under the meetings page for the Board, under 

today's date.

So folks can follow along with those 

documents to the extent that they are a 

reference during this meeting, just by going to 

the website and opening up those documents 

online.

So we're speaking about a specific 

work site, so please everyone speak to the 
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conflict of interest when you respond to roll 

call.

And Dr. Poston sent me an email. 

He's going to be joining this meeting late, so 

close to noon, 11:30 or noon. So just to let 

you know that, or maybe even a little later than 

that.

But I haven't heard negative from 

anyone else, so let's begin with the roll down, 

I have Phil on the line. Just speak to conflict 

of interest and then we'll go down.

(Roll call)

MR. KATZ: Okay, so I think I've 

covered everything I need to cover. Let me 

just remind everyone, particularly members of 

the public who are not so familiar with this, 

please put your phones on mute except when you 

have an opportunity to address the group, or you 

need to, because that will help the audio 

quality for everybody.
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So keep your phones on mute. If you 

don't have a mute button on your phone, if you 

press * and then 6, that will mute your phone.

And then press * and 6 again and 

it'll take your phone off of mute. And also 

please don't put this call on hold. Hang up and 

dial back in if you need to leave at any point. 

Because the hold will also ruin everyone's 

audio.

So thanks, and Phil, it's your 

meeting.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Okay. 

Welcome everybody. This meeting is about the 

Santa Susana Field Lab, kind of bring you and 

all of us up to date. I know there hasn't been 

much done on this as far as Work Group meetings 

for quite a while.

So just kind of bring everybody up 

to speed and get us all on the same page. There 

will be time for public comments after we get 
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has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally identifiable 

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through the agenda.

The agenda is posted on DCAS's 

website if anybody wants to see it. So I guess 

John Stiver, I'll turn it over to you.

MR. STIVER: Okay. Thank you, 

Phil. This is John Stiver, I put up the agenda 

on the, Live Meeting. Hopefully those of you 

who have Live Meeting can see it now.

As Phil said, it's been a long, long 

time since we had a Work Group meeting. About 

four and a half years now. And so in addition 

to that, the composition of the Work Group has 

changed and as well as the composition of the 

SC&A team, and possibly the ORAU team as well.

As a matter-of-fact I think Abe 

Zeitoun is the only one here today who actually, 

on our team at least, who was involved in the 

initial worker outreach back in 2005, 2006 

timeframe.

So what I'd like to do is kind of 
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give you sort of all a cameo sketch of where we 

are and how we got here.

This particular site is kind of 

difficult to follow. It actually took me a 

while to kind of unweave the web over the last 

few days, going through the old transcripts and 

trying to determine which findings came from 

what, review documents, and which ones are you 

know, still active and relevant today.

After that, I know Lara had put 

together a nice little summary of what DCAS's 

has done over the intervening four and a half 

years since the April 2010 meeting. We can 

talk about that a bit.

SC&A who has been involved in 

redoing a couple documents that NIOSH has 

produced. And there are some of the matrix 

issue items that can be closed out or at least 

put in abeyance.

Others are going to be contingent 
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upon the complete reviews of internal, external 

coworker models, and environmental TBD 

updates.

After that we can talk about the 

Board meeting that's coming up and then plan for 

the next Work Group meeting.

Let's get back to sort of the recap. 

As most of you know, at least the people who have 

involved in it for any length of time, the TBDs 

for Santa Susana were developed and released 

back in 2006 for the most part, 2006, 2007 

timeframe.

We completed the review of the Site 

Profile in 2008, I believe in the beginning of 

August in 2008. The first Work Group meeting 

was, I believe, held on August 26th of 2008.

At the February 2009, no, excuse me; 

that would have been the following year. We 

had a Work Group meeting in, I believe April 

17th of 2009, because I remember that because 
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it was my very first Work Group meeting. I'd 

been with SC&A for about two weeks at that 

point.

Then during that time we were also 

reviewing the SEC Petition, SEC-93, the 

original petition. And we completed the 

review of that in, I believe in, oh gosh, when 

was it, October of 2009? So it's kind of an 

overlapping of SEC, and the Site Profile 

document reviews, and findings resolutions.

And then I believe it was the 

February 2010 Board meeting, there's a bit of 

discussion there about Santa Susana, mainly a 

great deal of discussion about defining the 

site boundaries, and the labor aspect, and how 

the other three sites, Canoga, Downey, and De 

Soto all fit into the puzzle.

Then the last meeting was in April 

of 2010 and the Site Profile findings that we 

produced back in 2008, some of them were 
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resolved in the 2008 Work Group meeting. But 

others were elevated to SEC status based on the 

review of the Petition Evaluation Report.

And in addition to that, the 

petitioners had issues that were also included 

in the matrix and NIOSH themselves had 

indicated there were certain problems that they 

needed to look at.

So the matrix that you have now 

really reflects all those different, three 

different aspects, SC&A findings, petitioner 

concerns, and also NIOSH's concerns.

And that matrix was first used I 

believe in the 2009, April 2009 meeting. NIOSH 

then went ahead and added responses. We went 

ahead and discussed those in April 2010.

There had been some taskings to 

NIOSH in the 2009 meeting, and which were kind 

of not really specific to each particular 

finding but kind of grouped findings by topic.
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I believe there are like seven 

different things that NIOSH was to do and then 

we got back in April 2010 and talked about 

those.

And then finally in the intervening 

four and a half years, NIOSH has produced the 

internal dose coworker model. I believe that 

was back in, sometime in March of this year.

We are in process of reviewing that 

document; we're getting pretty close to 

finishing it up actually. I hope to have it to 

DOE next week for review. Ideally I'd like to 

have it completed by the Board meeting if 

possible. But be that as it may, we looked at 

that.

Also we had produced a review of 

OTIB-77 back in March of 2010, Hans Behling. 

And recall that, that document used the Boice 

Database and we've found a lot of problems with 

that.
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And then NIOSH actually had, and 

they were going to look at the whole issue of 

NTA track film and how to address neutron 

exposures. And then they produced, I believe 

it was June 2010, a paper about using 

neutron-to-photon ratios.

And we began a review, and actually 

just about finished it up. I think it's 

probably about 95 percent done, back in October 

of 2010. But you know due to other pressing 

concerns, mainly Fernald heating up and some 

other things.

It kind of got sidelined, and as 

things started heating up again this year, I 

started, I took another look at it and I 

considered you know, going ahead and releasing 

it.

But I was thinking well, you know, 

NIOSH is sort of in the process of revising. 

There's a major revision to OTIB-77 and based 
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on what Jim had said, Jim Neton had said that 

at the past two Board meetings they're still 

trying to sort out this neutron exposures and 

how to address, how to use the ratios versus NTA 

film at various times.

I believe SENES is involved in that 

effort. So I chose not to release it, because 

I wouldn't want to have to go back and redo it 

again at some future point.

But be that as it may, that's kind 

of a cameo sketch of where we are and how we got 

here. But if Jim or Lara if you'd like to talk 

about the things that you've accomplished over 

the last few years, I can go ahead and pull that 

document up here.

The, where is it? Here we go, Work 

Group update. Let me go ahead and share this. 

Jim, can you see that now?

DR. NETON: Yes, I've got it.

MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I see it, John. 
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Are we going to have opportunity to have a hard 

copy of these reports that we haven't seen yet?

MR. STIVER: Oh yes, certainly.

MEMBER MUNN: Thank you.

MR. STIVER: A lot of the reports we 

haven't completed, but when we will, they'll be 

available.

MEMBER MUNN: I haven't seen Lara's 

note either.

MR. STIVER: Okay.

MEMBER MUNN: Thanks.

MR. STIVER: This is Lara's 

summary, so Lara if you'd like to just talk 

about it a bit?

DR. NETON: This is Jim. I think 

that was distributed to the Work Group.

MR. STIVER: Yes, I'm sure it was.

DR. NETON: It was.

DR. HUGHES: This is Lara. It was, 

it was sent to the Work Group.
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MEMBER MUNN: I didn't have it.

DR. NETON: We'll certainly make 

sure you get a copy.

MR. KATZ: I think in September, is 

that right, Lara?

DR. HUGHES: Yes.

MR. KATZ: Yes.

MEMBER MUNN: I'll check again in 

my September mail.

DR. HUGHES: A lot of times when 

I'll send stuff to the Work Group, I get a lot 

of bounce back from the emails, it's basically 

saying the email is not valid.

MR. KATZ: Right, but Lara that 

doesn't apply to, Wanda's never had that 

problem other than within those --

DR. HUGHES: Okay.

MEMBER MUNN: No, my problem is one 

of memory.

MEMBER BEACH: Yes, and this is 
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Josie, I got a copy of it. So it's out there 

Wanda.

MEMBER MUNN: Alright. I'll check 

my September mail, thanks.

DR. HUGHES: Okay, so should I go 

ahead, Jim?

DR. NETON: Yes, go ahead, Lara.

DR. HUGHES: Okay. I hope you had 

a chance to review it. It's been a long time, 

but I think NIOSH has done a considerable amount 

of work on this. As John said, the last Work 

Group meeting was April 2010.

After the last Work Group meeting, 

NIOSH actually published a few documents. We 

published the review of the environmental, the 

external, and the internal Technical Basis 

Documents. However those were mostly due to 

include the SEC language.

As John mentioned the internal 

coworker model was published in March of 2014. 
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And also NIOSH developed a White Paper 

documenting the development of the 

neutron-photon ratio to be used. And that was 

done in 2010.

Also NIOSH did a revision of the 

external coworker model. That is currently in 

draft status. And it's a complete rework of 

the previous model that used the Boice Database 

that we have since then decided to abandon 

because of all the problems associated with it.

So just to go back over the years 

relatively quickly. In 2010, NIOSH continued 

to -- the remainder of 2010 after the last Work 

Group meeting, there were several issues with 

the database that we received from Boeing. And 

we kept trying to resolve the issues with that, 

and in the end, we were not able to do that.

Also in 2010, NIOSH did the 

neutron-photon approach and it revised some 

TBDs in 2011. The negotiations with Boeing 
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continued.

The somewhat frustrating part with 

this was that NIOSH knew Boeing had the worker 

dosimetry data scans which essentially was an 

electronic copy of all the workers’ files in the 

form of a scanned picture of each worker's 

documents.

And we tried to get that, but Boeing 

was very hesitant to release that. So by 2012 

we finally convinced Boeing to release this 

data. It took two years almost for them to 

finally be convinced that this was the 

appropriate thing to do, so to speak.

NIOSH received this data in March of 

2012, and produced the internal and external 

coworker model based on the data. It was a very 

large data entry effort and data verification, 

quality assurance that was done by ORAU.

So these models are completed. The 

external model is awaiting approval because of 
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the remaining issues regarding the neutrons, 

which I think we have now arrived at a path 

forward.

And which will be presented in 

addition to the neutron-photon White Paper. 

The refined approach will be presented in the 

form of the revision of the document, such as 

the TBD, or the internal-external coworker 

model. It will probably be included in that.

As for the coworker models, the 

internal coworker model, OTIB-80 it consists of 

a plutonium model, a uranium model, and a 

gross beta model encompassing the years from 

1965 up until the modern period, the 1990s.

The external coworker model which 

it's an analysis of about 175,000 data points, 

which consists of a site wide model that is all 

of Santa Susana, as well as a model to be used 

for Area IV workers, and for the, for workers 

at the De Soto plant.
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As for the neutron approach, NIOSH 

is currently suggesting to use the 

neutron-photon ratio, however that there's 

also an approach to use NTA film with a 

correction factor for certain exposures at the 

site such as accelerator exposures.

And that concludes the end of my 

little note sheet that I have here for the 

update so --

MEMBER BEACH: Lara, this is Josie. 

I have just a comment and a question. On Page 

1 under the SEC Evaluation Reports, I think 

there might be a typo on that first SEC for 0093. 

That was from January 1st, 1955 and I think it 

was 1958, not '65. Is that correct?

DR. NETON: That's correct Josie.

DR. HUGHES: Yes.

DR. NETON: That was actually, no 

well, that was the petition time period.

DR. HUGHES: That's correct it was 
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initially, it was. Yes, that's a typo, I'm 

sorry.

MEMBER BEACH: No, that's fine, I 

just heard people looking at this, it's quite, 

it's quite complicated.

The other one is OTIB-77, that was 

a complete rewrite, correct?

DR. HUGHES: Yes.

MEMBER BEACH: So that's something 

that, is it --

DR. HUGHES: Yes it has, it's in 

draft status which means we have not released 

it.

MEMBER BEACH: Okay, so that's 

something that we'll have to look at when it 

comes up? When do you think that will be out?

DR. HUGHES: It should be soon. 

Jim, do you have any?

DR. NETON: Josie, that should be 

soon. I held that up. The TLD portion is fine 
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for the external you know, photons and such, but 

there was a table in there that summarizes 

coworker data using the NTA track film, or track 

material.

And it was, I was concerned about 

how we're going to use that in addition to this 

neutron-photon ratio. That's been resolved. 

So that the data that are in there are actually 

correct. We just need to annotate it to 

reflect how those NTA measurements would be 

used.

So it should be soon. I would say, 

you know in a matter of weeks.

MEMBER BEACH: Yes, I guess where 

it says we've started in 2014, to just kind of, 

wasn't sure --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: -- the one table that 

has the NTA film data that we need to 

essentially annotate either there or in the 
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external dosimetry TBD, as to how those data are 

actually used in conjunction with the 

neutron-photon ratio.

MEMBER BEACH: Oh, okay. And I 

have I guess, Ted one more thing on the 077. Is 

that something that SC&A can just go ahead and 

as soon as it comes out, go ahead and review?

MR. KATZ: Yes, so we don't need to 

wait for a Work Group meeting for that, but 

we'll task that when it's released, yes.

MEMBER BEACH: Yes, perfect. 

Okay.

MR. STIVER: Okay, thanks. Thank 

you, Lara.

I have a question for Jim. The 

neutron to photon ratio paper that you produced 

back in June of 2010, is that still, does it 

still stand as it was written?

DR. NETON: Yes, that would not, 

that will stand as it was written. That's our 
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intent to use that for those reactor 

facilities.

MR. STIVER: Okay, alright. So 

we'll go ahead and finish up our review of it

and then deliver it to the Work Group. That's 

one thing I was just kind of concerned about 

just in reading some of the history here.

DR. NETON: No, I understand what 

you're saying John. I agree with what, how you 

summarized it. We were, I wasn't quite sure 

how those N/P ratios were going to be used for 

reactors. But now we've got a path forward and 

it will stand as written.

MR. STIVER: One other thing that I 

wanted to know, it might be premature to ask 

this but, you said there was like 175,000 data 

points in the Boeing external dosimetry data 

for Boeing.

One of the problems we had --

because it was an epidemiology study, there 
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was, it was eventually considered lifetime 

exposure. So we had people coming in who had 

doses included earlier at other sites that were 

added into the Santa Susana Database.

DR. HUGHES: John, this is Lara. 

Just to clarify, I might not have made this 

completely clear, but NIOSH is not using any 

aspect of the Boice data anymore.

MR. STIVER: Oh, right, right. My 

question was really, is the Boeing data just 

exclusive to Santa Susana --

DR. HUGHES: It's what was received 

from the site for each of their workers.

MR. STIVER: Okay.

DR. HUGHES: So yes, I mean it's --

MR. STIVER: It might be earlier 

TIB-77.

DR. HUGHES: Yes, I realize that.

MR. STIVER: Is it inclusive of all 

four sites?
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DR. HUGHES: Yes. No this is the 

raw data. This was actually input by ORAU from 

each worker's dosimetry card, bioassay card, it 

was all redone.

MR. STIVER: Okay, so will there be 

one generalized coworker model, or it is going 

to be like separate models for each? Like one 

for De Soto and one for --

DR. HUGHES: There's one for De 

Soto, one for Area IV for the external, yes.

MR. STIVER: And the others are 

covered by the SEC? Okay, alright. I don't 

want to get into too much detail on that until 

we have a chance to look at it.

I guess as far as SC&A is concerned 

we've really, you know we've been kind of 

dormant on Santa Susana aside from the review, 

the neutron-photon ratio paper. And the 

review of, at the internal CBT.

And you know we realize you guys 
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haven't had a chance to look at it, because we 

haven't even finished it yet. But, so I know 

there are a few questions that, you know Bob and 

Milton have been leading the charge on this.

And you know they have been very 

close to the data and really, you know looking 

at it at a very fine level of granularity.

Had a few questions that maybe you 

guys could maybe answer, I don't know. We 

don't want to put you on the spot or anything 

with questions about you know, the quality or 

the veracity of the methods or anything like 

that but, Bob you on line still?

MR. BARTON: Yes, I'm here John.

Thanks --

MR. STIVER: Could you give a 

thumbnail sketch of you know what our concerns 

were. I know there's something about the 

inclusiveness of the different radionuclides 

and B- 
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MR. BARTON: Sure, sure I mean we 

kind of got into it a little bit with, I guess 

Lara's summary there. But I guess our main 

questions kind of centered around, we weren't 

quite sure where the external database that 

sort of underlines the coworker models, really 

came from.

And I'm feeling a little confused 

because I found out that the data came from 

Boeing but then there was an effort by ORAU to 

I guess code additional data or was it a 

separate effort?

So I mean if you could get a little 

more information as to where this data came 

from, like and if, I mean the database itself 

contained something like 37,000 data points.

Not all are actually germane to the 

reconstruction of uranium, plutonium, and 

fission products which is laid out in TIB-80.

But you know there's a significant 
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amount of data. I guess we're kind of 

wondering because it's not directly referenced 

in the database. Was that actual electronic 

file received by Boeing and modified by ORAU?

Was it actually compiled solely by 

ORAU? The log books, I guess we're just kind 

of looking for a little more information as to 

where exactly this database originated from? 

Because it obviously is the linchpin to doing 

a coworker analysis.

DR. HUGHES: Bob, could you clarify 

which database you're referring to? This is 

Lara.

MR. BARTON: Well that's whatever 

was received from ORAU? I can see if I can 

quickly dig up the specific name of it here? 

One moment please. Let's see, it's called 

SSSO_finalcompilation, and it's dated March of 

2013_R2A internal, that's what it would be 

named.
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DR. HUGHES: Okay. That is a 

document that was developed by ORAU.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

DR. HUGHES: It's nothing from 

Boeing. This is the, unless somebody from ORAU 

corrects me on this, we do not use a database 

that was released from Boeing in any way. We 

are using the worker files that were released 

from Boeing, that the data was extracted and 

entered and analyzed by ORAU and NIOSH.

MR. BARTON: So the hard copy 

records which I guess you had discovered as sort 

of scans of individual worker's files. We're 

talking more than just claimants obviously, 

these are all the workers -- 

DR. HUGHES: Yes.

MR. BARTON: -- that we have 

information on. Okay, so those were entered 

into this database and QA'd and such.

DR. HUGHES: That's correct.
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MR. BARTON: And so the actual hard 

copy records, are they in the SRDB? Because we 

did have a little bit of trouble when we tried 

to track down where --

DR. HUGHES: They're not on the 

SRDB, they're all on an encrypted hard drive 

that was received from Boeing.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

DR. HUGHES: So that --

MR. BARTON: Well, Lara, it's good 

that you have the hard copy though because this 

way you can help us, like tell the --

DR. HUGHES: We have scans of the 

hard copies, we do not actually have the hard 

copies.

MR. BARTON: Okay, yes. I realize 

that, yes, they're scans. No, I just wanted to 

be aware, scans of the original record. It's 

good that you have those because it may help us 

solve a few sort of generic questions about the 
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database that kind of had us scratching our 

heads.

And I'm sure it will help us more 

efficiently wrap-up our review of the coworker 

model.

And then there specifically was 

some results, I think maybe on one specifically 

uranium results that were earmarked to be used 

in the coworker model, actually had two 

numerical values associated with a single 

bioassay result.

And I don't know if this is getting 

too specific and I, you know it would be 

completely unfair because you haven't even seen 

a report yet to dive into the weeds, but if you 

do know the answer it would help us out.

Sometimes if there are two results, 

one would be labeled as the reported results, 

and then there's a calculated results. And we 

couldn't quite, well we just don't know what I 
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guess the difference is between the two and how 

you have worded the reported results 

confirmed versus, and how was the calculated 

results reached?

If you really have that situation, 

you still have to choose one, whether you can 

use the reported numerical value or the 

calculated one to plug into the OPOS 

calculation which eventually becomes the 

coworker intake.

I don't know if that's something 

that can be easily answered? It'd be great, if 

not, I don't know -- is Matt Arno on the phone 

because I think he was --

DR. ARNO: Yes, I'm on.

MR. BARTON: Yes, and you're the 

principle author on TIB-80. I don't know if 

you have that information, you know at the 

ready, or is it something that you'd have to 

look into further to kind of characterize it?
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DR. ARNO: I'm sorry could you 

repeat the original question again?

MR. BARTON: Well, yes. Some of 

the results that we were looking at, that were 

pegged to be used in the coworker model, 

actually had two quantitative values. Two 

different numbers for the same bioassay sample.

One would believe it is reported, 

simply because the column header says reported. 

And then the column next to it says calculated. 

And then we would expect you would setup, it 

would typically select the calculated value, 

but we didn't really know what, what the 

calculated value actually entailed.

So we're kind of wondering you know 

what the difference is? What steps went into

getting to the calculated value versus what was 

reported? I can give you a little more 

information, Matt. And that was --

DR. ARNO: Well, that has to do with 
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how the data was actually recorded on the forms 

that we were provided. There would be a box on 

those forms that would have a reported value in 

it. And that's where on that form there would 

be the, basically the underlying calculations 

that would have a result there.

And that result would often be 

either the actual result for a less than MDA 

value or it might have more significant digits 

than what was reported.

It's nothing we calculated. It was 

on the forms that we transcribed.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Lara, are 

these the same records that you spent lunch 

transcribing?

DR. HUGHES: Yes, that will be the 

records.

DR. NETON: Bob, this is Jim. It 

sounds to me that you, SC&A might benefit from 

getting some example copies of these hard 
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copies, or these electronic files. Maybe not 

necessarily the whole thing, it's my 

understanding it's a fairly huge, huge 

database.

DR. HUGHES: Jim, as an example, I 

mean all you would have to do is look in NOCTS. 

I'm not sure if that's available to SC&A.

DR. NETON: Yes, sure.

DR. HUGHES: But it's basically you 

know any claimant's NOCTS file would correspond 

to what we received from --

DR. NETON: Okay, yes that's a good 

point.

DR. HUGHES: Because we actually 

cross correlated them to see if there were any 

mismatches and we have not been able to find 

any. So basically what the claimant receives 

from --

DR. NETON: You have access to 

NOCTS, right Bob?
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MR. BARTON: Yes, sure. I 

actually, I got just got knocked off the call 

so I missed the majority of your response but 

I guess the calculated value was what was 

contained in the DOE response files, is that 

what?

DR. NETON: No, no Matt Arno, he 

could speak better but sounds like there was, 

the calculated value was actually on the sheets 

that were received from Boeing.

MR. BARTON: Yes, that was -- 

really it sounded like both values were on the 

sheet, one was in the box and one was above the 

box, so I guess I -- I don't know.

Again I apologize I got, as soon as 

you guys started talking I got kicked off the 

call and had to dial back in. Sorry to make you 

have to repeat yourself.

DR. NETON: Those copies of those 

records are all, they're claimants. Those 
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hard copies, electronic copies are in the 

claimant files so maybe it would be helpful if 

you would look at some of the claimant files 

where those records exist and you know then you 

can see the actual sheet that was coded.

MR. BARTON: Okay, so I mean the 

ones for non-claimants were essentially the 

same format and everything?

DR. NETON: Yes.

MR. BARTON: That was coded. 

Okay.

MR. STIVER: This is John Stiver. 

This is something that we were hoping that we 

could get from you guys. At least was the, you 

know that knowledge that the data you have and 

it's from Boeing, is actually included in the

claimant files.

And we can just go in there and take 

a sampling you know for differ people, 

different times for whatever radionuclides we 
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want to look at, and see the actual data. So 

that's important.

And just to be sure now, the 

calculated and the recorded, or reported values 

had nothing to do with what ORAU did? This is 

just straight off the data sheet that came from 

Boeing, correct?

MR. BARTON: Correct.

MR. STIVER: Okay, alright.

MR. KATZ: And this is Ted. John, 

and Bob, you know once you get into that and 

you're looking at examples from NOCTS, if you 

need more access to you know more of the data 

set, what have you, just ask for that.

And if you need clarifications just 

get in touch with Lara and get those. You don't 

need to wait for another Work Group meeting for 

any of that.

MR. BARTON: Okay, thank you Ted.

MR. KATZ: Sure.
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MR. BARTON: Yes, I think first 

order we can look at the sample of claimant's 

and then if we still have questions like you 

said, we can request the additional data which 

I guess is on an encrypted drive somewhere, but 

good.

It's good that we have that, because 

we weren't sure if you know ORAU had just 

received an electronic database and you know we 

really didn't know, kind of what went into it, 

who created it, you know where the data came 

from?

So it's really good to hear that we 

have that underlying, I keep calling it hard 

copy, I realize it's you know essentially PDF 

scans but the original worker exposure records 

is important.

I guess the other, I guess broad 

observation that we had, and it would be good 

to get a little clarifying information on it, 
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is we noticed that a large proportion of the 

samples at least on the surface, only appear to 

be given in units of total activity.

Where sometimes the sample Boeing 

has provided, sometimes it's not. And so in 

those cases where Boeing had total activity, 

for example, disintegrations per minute, DPM, 

it would have seemed that those samples 

actually represented, possibly 24 hour 

samples.

So even though we've always said 

that the bioassay samples was total activity, 

DPM was assumed, was that it was actually DPM 

per about 1.5 liters per day essentially. And 

I guess we were hoping a little more discussion 

as to how that was reached?

What it says in the actually TIB-80 

is that it was based on I guess two things. One 

was the Technical Basis Document for Santa 

Susana. And secondly was based on trends that 
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were observed in the datasets.

So I guess we're kind of looking for 

just a little more discussion as to how that 

assumption was reached. And by looking at the 

TBD, there was some indication in there that the 

standard was per day, which that sort of makes 

some sense.

But there also wasn't really a 

direct reference provided in there. I mean I 

know you can't reference every sentence in a 

TDB, but I was looking for a little more 

information on how that decision was reached?

That those data points where we have 

essentially a numerical value in the units of 

total activity instead of total activity per 

some unit volume, that those were all in fact, 

DPM per day.

Because obviously that's going to 

be very important when you actually start 

plugging these numbers in to get your OPOS 
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value. And then to use that to calculate a 

chronic intake rate.

Well, I guess the question is, I 

mean you know, how did we get to that point, or 

we see in the database that the samples were 

given in total activity and not normalized to 

a volume, but assume that they are actually in 

fact per a daily sample of 1.5 liters?

DR. ARNO: Well, as the TIB said the 

TBD indicates that it was the standard practice 

to collect a 24 hour sample.

And when you review the data and you 

looked at contemporaneous samples for the same 

analysis type that do report the results in per 

some unit volume, you see that all of those are 

reported in basically per 1.5 liters there per 

day type of sample.

So we just made the assumption that 

the ones that did not have units were per 1.5 

liters because all the ones that did have units, 
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were in per 1.5 liter units.

MR. BARTON: I see. Okay. 

Alright. That's going to help us out a lot in 

sort of wrapping this up. I think that was the 

major questions I had.

Milton, if you're out there, did you 

have anything that you wanted to say query 

before we wrap up our draft review or?

MR. GORDON: No, I don't think so.

MR. BARTON: Okay, Milton's been 

working on job title analysis. It's something 

we always look at with internal coworker 

models. And the information is somewhat 

limited unfortunately.

I don't know the exact percentages, 

but you know a few of the records actually 

specify a job title associated with a specific 

sample.

And what we did is we created 

notches to try to fill in some of the gaps 
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because we actually had social security numbers 

that we could match up and pull job titles from 

NOCTS.

And so that'll be part of our review 

of just looking at, you know it's an important 

question of what type of jobs were actually 

monitored you know.

And maybe some ideas if that is 

representative or you know, even better sort of 

a bounding sample of job types. So that'll be 

part of our report as well. But I think that's 

all I had.

Oh, actually one more thing. This 

TIB-80 covers uranium, plutonium and fission 

products, and I guess we were curious if there 

was any plan to sort of assess exposure 

potential with maybe some of the more exotic or 

rarer isotopes that might have been at Santa 

Susana. You know such as maybe thorium 

exposure, or americium, curium that kind of 
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thing?

DR. ARNO: We considered doing the 

other radionuclides but there was not enough 

data for those radionuclides to perform a 

coworker study for them.

MR. BARTON: Okay.

MR. STIVER: This is John. How do 

you plan on dealing with the other 

radionuclides then?

DR. ARNO: Well from the aspect of 

the coworker study we won't be able to do 

anything and I -- I think someone else needs to 

answer with regard to the TBD.

MR. BARTON: I just want to add, I 

know it's in one of responses that --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: This is one of those 

issues that we've still got to resolve. I mean 

it's an outstanding issue.

MR. STIVER: Okay, alright. I was 
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just wondering if you were going to use like a 

TIB-54 type approach to try to ratio to the 

fission products or something like that?

DR. ARNO: Well OTIB-54 would be 

used for the gross beta results that are in the 

coworker study.

DR. NETON: I mean and if you 

consider those some of the exotics, but 

anything other than the actinides that were 

modeled. You have to sort of look at it on a 

case-by-case basis, which, you know who was 

exposed and were they all monitored? It's very 

similar to what we've done at other facilities.

MR. STIVER: Okay, yes there's 

something still in the works then?

DR. NETON: Yes.

MR. STIVER: Okay. Hans or John, 

you guys have anything you wanted to ask?

DR. MAURO: This is John, no. You 

just answered the question that I was -- I knew 
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this issue I used to call the term exotic. 

Maybe they're not all exotic but, so it sounds 

like dealing with that issue is still something 

that is sort of overarching?

And Jim, do you folks plan on coming 

up with a strategy? Because this is --

DR. NETON: We definitely have to 

address it, although I'm, I would not call it 

overarching, that in my mind has a different 

connotation.

DR. MAURO: Yes.

DR. NETON: But yes, we definitely 

have to address it one way or the other.

DR. MAURO: Yes. Is there a way 

that in thinking about the problem -- sounds

like there are two strategies?

The obvious thing you know, one is 

this ratio-ing approach somehow. And the 

other is maybe in combination, demonstrate that 

any contribution from these others are not 
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significant. And somehow quantitatively 

demonstrate that.

Is this a line of approach that 

you're taking, it seems like this is something 

that has been lingering for a while?

DR. NETON: Unless Lara has any 

additional information I don't know about, 

that's still up in the air, John.

DR. MAURO: Okay, thank you.

MEMBER BEACH: So I have a 

question. This is Josie. From the last Work 

Group meeting in April 2010, there were three 

action items. And the environmental doses and 

explanation of how you're going to do those, has 

that been addressed yet, or?

DR. HUGHES: Yes, there has been a 

review of the environmental Technical Basis 

Documents and some of the issues were 

addressed, which as the tritium doses have been 

incorporated.
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And some of, the issue of the 

stacked data was addressed to a certain extent. 

This is also, the document is also in draft 

status awaiting the, it was really waiting for 

resolving issues regarding the internal and 

external coworker models. So now that these 

are resolved, this should move forward.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Is the 

external environmental dose, which data are you 

going to be using? Just the records, because 

there's you know there's potential for people 

who weren't monitored on a bioassay program 

would have received an internal dose from the 

environment.

DR. HUGHES: I'm sorry, the 

internal?

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I mean like a 

reactor when it went south. I mean it was, I 

mean I don't remember the numbers off the top 

of my head, but that was released and I don't 
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know if all the personnel were actually 

monitored for internal exposures?

So you'd need a coworker model for 

those who weren't and yet were subjected to the 

possibility of, I mean in some form of uptake 

from the environment.

DR. HUGHES: We do have the 

internal and external coworker model that are 

in place currently, that can be used to address 

any unmonitored exposures.

DR. NETON: Lara, this is Jim. I'm 

having a little trouble hearing you.

DR. HUGHES: Okay. I'll try to 

speak up.

DR. NETON: Okay.

DR. HUGHES: Any unmonitored

exposures to a worker that potentially was 

exposed to higher than environmental levels 

would you know, we would apply the internal or 

the external coworker model.
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MR. STIVER: Lara, I didn't quite 

hear that about, when do you expect that the 

revisions to the TBDs, Number 4, the 

environment TBD would be available?

DR. HUGHES: Jim, I guess it would 

be, it should be a matter of maybe weeks. It 

shouldn't be too much longer.

DR. NETON: Okay.

DR. MAURO: Lara, this is John 

Mauro, I ran into an ambient dose situation on 

a DR review. And I made use of PROC-60 which 

is onsite ambient dose reconstruction for DOE 

Sites. It covers a lot of sites.

Is somehow that PROC applicable 

here, for environmental ambient exposures?

DR. HUGHES: I would have to defer 

to that. I do not know.

DR. MAURO: Okay.

MR. SMITH: This is Matt Smith with 

ORAU team. I don't believe Santa Susana is 
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summarized in procedure 60. And procedure 60 

would be addressing external ambient exposure.

But certainly both coworker models, 

and I work primarily on the external side, are 

there for just that purpose. For a worker who 

was not routinely monitored but we're looking 

for a data set to fill in the story on their dose 

history.

DR. MAURO: Yes, the reason I 

raised the question is I noticed that there are 

a limited number of specific sites where you 

come up with an ambient and you start to look 

at the tables, and the ambient doses. They're 

all pretty close together and they do capture 

a broad range of different types of activities, 

different types of facilities.

And I noticed that in a particular 

DR. And the only reason I'm bringing this up 

is I'm looking at a case that is a facility that 

is not actually explicitly addressed in PROC-60 
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but you did find a way to assign ambient doses.

It sounds like you might have a 

similar circumstance here.

MR. SMITH: Well, and in addition 

you have the ambient, or the external, I'm sorry 

-- the environmental TBD which will address 

external exposure as well.

DR. MAURO: Okay, alright, thank 

you.

MR. BARTON: You know, John, this 

is Bob Barton. I think you bring up a pretty 

good question that we often struggle with at a 

multitude of sites, is when does a certain 

worker crossover from the internal coworker 

model into this, into the ambient, internal 

portion of the TBD?

Because you do have certain, have a 

situation where it's maybe up to the dose 

reconstructor to decide when a worker will be 

considered unmonitored but should have been 
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monitored, which is sort of the language we use 

associated with assigning low B to TIB-80 

coworker intakes, versus a worker who, you know 

you really wouldn't expect would be in these 

areas with the monitored rad worker population.

And then you sort of default to the 

ambient. And it's like I said, it's something 

we wrestle with at a lot of sites because it's 

not often specifically delineated.

I know we've had some discussions 

with the SEC Work Group about that, about to 

what level can you actually be prescriptive 

about which types of workers are going to be 

assigned which internal intakes.

Because there's really two levels. 

It's the coworker model at one level, which is 

what resulted over the monitored population. 

And then you have the ambient which you would 

think would be more, you know the office workers 

who really didn't enter radiological areas but 
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were on the site and could have been exposed to 

ambient environmental intakes.

DR. NETON: Yes, Bob, this is Jim. 

And you're right. This is an area, this is 

something we wrestle with at almost every site.

And I think, you know that the idea 

is that if a worker had any potential at all for 

entering a, what we would call a radiological 

area, and by that I mean there was presence of 

reactor materials, and work processes going on, 

and they weren't monitored. They would always 

at a minimum receive the 50th percentile of the 

coworker model.

The ambient environmental is very 

much sparingly reserved for people who we would 

consider to be administrative personnel. Who 

had almost no possibility of entering the 

radiological areas.

There you're talking about people 

such as administrator support staffs, 
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secretarial support, those type of folks. And 

I think if you go through the dose 

reconstructions you'll see that we fairly, we 

almost always err on the side of being 

claimant-favorable in those situations.

There is a TIB out there that gives 

some guidance on this. I can't remember the 

exact, it might be 20, but talks about climate 

and environmental. And it's got a sheet at the 

back, I might have it, but scanned at hand.

I was looking at this issue actually 

as part of the implementation guide for 

coworker models. That as you know, that we're 

working on. And if you bear with me one second 

I think I actually a table.

Yes, --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: And I don't have the 

particulars --

(Simultaneous speaking)
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DR. NETON: -- the attachment and 

job categories in general is for, they all 

indicate some potential for application in 

environmental, internal exposures. And it 

goes through three categories that was covered.

But you're right I think it's, this 

is truly an overarching issue and it's 

something that we need to deal with, perhaps 

more than likely in the coworker issues group.

MR. BARTON: You're right. I 

agree.

MR. STIVER: Yeah, this is John 

Stiver. I agree as well, probably this isn't 

the right forum for discussing this although 

it's an interesting issue and it does come up 

quite frequently.

Does anybody else have any 

questions about the problems that have been B 

DR. BEHLING: John, this is Hans 

Behling. I do have a question in regard to what 
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was just talked about with the internal. In 

the rewrite of the OTIB-77, are we also planning 

to provide doses at the 50th percentile and 95 

percentile level?

MR. SMITH: Yes, this is Matt Smith 

with ORAU team. The answer is yes.

DR. BEHLING: And also 

construction trade worker in there?

MR. SMITH: Yes.

DR. NETON: Well, Hans --

(Simultaneous speaking)

DR. NETON: -- as you know are in 

somewhat of a transition period here with the 

SEC Issues Work Group on coworker modeling.

But at this point we're proceeding 

along as we have and you know we'll make 

modifications as necessary as you know, as we 

come to some conclusion on the issues that are 

currently on the table.

But right now we're moving forward 
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with the same approach we've used as in the past 

until those issues become resolved.

DR. BEHLING: I was just, the 

question in context with what was just talked 

about, when to use the environmental versus the 

coworker as it applies to the 50th percentile 

application.

In just reading over the old 

OTIB-77, I have a question about when you would 

apply the 95th percentile for an unmonitored 

worker? Because based on the definition it's 

a person who would be expected to be exposed 

routinely.

And as such you would almost expect 

also for him, to have a significant amount of 

data if not a complete data set for him which 

would always make it an oxymoron to identify a

person whose routinely exposed, when you have 

all these data points and actually --

DR. NETON: -- that's not 
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necessarily true Hans, I mean in earlier days 

there may have not monitored all the highly 

exposed workers. As you've pointed out in the 

past, they may have been cohort badging to some 

extent.

You know sampling of the various 

exposure. Or they could have, we just could 

have not gotten the guys records. It's 

conceivable a person who was a chemical 

operator was monitored and his records were 

lost.

There are a lot of situations where 

I can think it would apply.

DR. BEHLING: Okay. Yes, I accept 

the fact that if there were gaps or missing 

data, or missing records, or in the case of 

coworker, cohort badging that you would 

obviously have a need apply the 95th 

percentile.

MR. STIVER: Yes, again I think 
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this is something that's going to be very much 

in play in the SEC Work Group regarding 

development of coworker models and so forth, 

and you have some of these overarching issues 

that's coming up again and again.

DR. BEHLING: Also let me ask, on 

the assumption that I may be the person from 

SC&A to be passing reviews and rewrites of 

OTIB-77. Who would be the person because of 

the new database that's going to be used, who 

would be the person that would be able to answer 

questions?

On the assumption that Ted Katz 

would allow us to make contact with that person, 

to answer questions that we have as our review 

progresses?

DR. NETON: I would work through 

Lara Hughes, she's the NIOSH point of contact 

and then we could identify who in ORAU would be 

able to help. But I think we'd stick with the 
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NIOSH contact for now.

MR. KATZ: And Hans, this is Ted. 

And certainly whenever you have questions that 

need clarifying, contact the point person.

DR. BEHLING: Okay.

DR. NETON: Yes, you could always 

call me as well but I can't guarantee I'd be as 

helpful as Lara.

DR. BEHLING: Okay. Thank you.

MR. STIVER: Well Hans, you have 

any other questions or are you ready to move on?

DR. BEHLING: No, I have no 

questions.

MR. STIVER: Okay, great. I guess 

the next thing to do is kind of go back to some 

of the existing issues. I've got the issues 

matrix pulled up I believe if it hasn't 

disappeared, and I have updates to it.

There are basically five of the 

issues I think can be closed out or put in 
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abeyance today. This is Number 1 through 4 and 

also Number 9.

MEMBER BEACH: John, can I ask --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER BEACH: John, this is Josie. 

Can I make a comment on those ones you said that 

could be closed or put into abeyance?

MR. STIVER: Okay, could we just --

MEMBER BEACH: You want to go 

through first? Okay, go ahead.

MR. STIVER: -- I think just an 

overview and then we could update each one.

MEMBER BEACH: Okay.

MR. STIVER: There are some new 

gray areas here and there.

Number 5 and Number 12 are kind of 

waiting in abeyance, or they're still open 

pending a release of the environmental TBD, 

revisions. And so forth with external and 

internal, there's four of these, six, seven, 
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eight, and 13 that are kind of contingent upon 

the revisions of OTIB-77.

And as far as internal, six, eight, 

and ten will have to wait for our completion of 

our internal review.

But we can certainly go through the 

first five, that I believe can possibly be 

closed out, or at least put in abeyance.

Now the first one here, the first 

one is the sodium reactor experiment. And this 

is a petitioner issue. This is a fairly old 

one. It's been in play now since 2009.

The latest update, now I had looked 

at this in preparation for the 2010 meeting and 

basically the SEC Extension 364, basically made 

the internal component of this issue, moot.

On the other hand we're still, 

there's still the external component that's at 

play. And you know we would need to, wait on 

the review of TIB-77 before we could actually 
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close this out I would think.

My recommendation would be to put 

this in abeyance until such time as we can look 

at the revised TIB-77. Any comments?

DR. NETON: Well this is Jim, I'm 

just, you know, I haven't thought about these 

for some time, but I'm looking at our note here 

that said it was closed on 4-20-2010 on Page 47, 

of the transcript. I'm not sure what, I mean 

I'm concerned --

MR. STIVER: I believe it's, that 

yesterday I went over the transcripts, it's 

basically between Pages 47 and 49 we talked 

about --

DR. NETON: Was it closed by the 

Working Group at that time?

MR. STIVER: It wasn't officially 

closed. It was the kind of thing that you know, 

we all agreed that the internal component was 

no longer moot.
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And then the external component 

would be contingent on the external model. But 

you've changed your external model completely 

since then. And so for those things that was 

kind of a snapshot in time, that --

DR. NETON: I don't have any 

problem doing it, I just --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: -- a brand new model 

that you know we haven't even looked at yet.

DR. NETON: Yes, I certainly would 

agree with that.

MR. STIVER: You ask, just keep it 

open, well not open but at least in abeyance 

until we have a chance to look at the model.

What else, Josie, someone that's on 

the Work Group?

MEMBER BEACH: Yes. I, this 

Josie. I got dropped from the call so I missed 

your whole dialogue, but you were still talking 
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about Number 1?

MR. STIVER: Right.

MEMBER BEACH: My concern was when 

I went back and read the transcript I couldn't 

find where we had actually closed it, and I 

think you just addressed that, correct?

MR. STIVER: Yes. We were just 

talking about it. It was agreed in principle 

that the internal component was no longer moot 

because of the SEC extension, but the external 

component we thought was probably okay based on 

the coworker model.

But the coworker model is 

completely different now.

MEMBER BEACH: Yes --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: -- because of that it 

would be best to wait until we take a look at 

the new TIB-77.

MEMBER BEACH: Yes, and for me 
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John, I just think we do have two new Members 

and I thought that the write-up was a little bit 

on the first four words, just said it was closed 

but it really didn't go back and say why, or how, 

or so someone could go back and review it.

So I was just hoping that we could 

get a better you know, clarification in the 

matrix so that if you wanted to back track you 

could see where it was actually done, and why.

MR. STIVER: Yes, we will after 

today, we'll go back and update the matrix and 

make that all available to everybody with maybe 

a little bit more description as to you know 

what happened and why.

So actually we'll have to 

rebaseline the matrix all the way round I think 

by the time we are finished up with our reviews.

MR. KATZ: Right. John, so this is 

Ted, but so to keep our terminology straight, 

that item does not, is not in abeyance. That 
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would be still open.

I mean it would be in abeyance if the 

same coworker model were, would be coming out 

that was expected but since you just said, I 

mean so the horse is changed then you don't 

really have --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. STIVER: Right, right. You're 

right.

MR. KATZ: So it's really just an 

open issue still.

MR. STIVER: Yes. You're right.

DR. NETON: I think it would be 

helpful if you annotated it to explain exactly 

why, which we just talked about.

MR. STIVER: Exactly.

DR. NETON: The external coworker 

model and such, yes.

MR. STIVER: Okay, we'll do that.

MEMBER MUNN: I certainly agree 
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with that. I think it should remain open 

because you're absolutely right. The 

transcript is actually very vague in that 

regard. Really doesn't tell us anything.

MR. STIVER: Okay. Back to one I 

know, this the, another petitioner issue, it's 

based on this Tiger Team report, and I, this 

again was one I think that was closed out, or 

we agreed to close it out in principle back in 

2009.

It's on the, the idea was Tiger Team 

report really was criticizing the dosimetry for 

not being DOELAP accredited. But the 

timeframe was shifted and such that it really 

didn't apply to the set of film badges that you 

know that are, the external dosimetry for the 

time period that we were interested in.

And so I would concur with NIOSH's 

response that we could probably go ahead and 

close this one out because it was not really 
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relevant to the issue at hand.

And again I could really probably 

put in a little bit more explanatory note in 

there.

MEMBER BEACH: Yes, John. And I 

don't think the Work Group when I read the 

transcript, I didn't see where we officially 

said yes, we agree and this is why we agree, and 

we closed it, so --

MR. STIVER: Yes, I think value, 

part of this just has to do with the time period 

involved and --

MEMBER BEACH: Yes. 

MR. STIVER: This particular case 

it was a little different than some of the sites 

where we have an Issues Matrix we go through it 

line-by-line and then have a firm closing, like 

we would say do in Procedures or in Dose 

Reconstruction.

MEMBER MUNN: Yes, that's right. 
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This is Wanda, and yes it appears to me that we, 

this is, our matrix here is a combination of the 

processes we've used in various places then.

MR. STIVER: Yes.

MEMBER MUNN: It's not quite that 

clear cut.

MR. STIVER: It's a bit confusing 

and complicated.

MEMBER MUNN: Yes it is.

DR. NETON: I think we also need to 

remember that this is an SEC issues close out 

matrix, not a Site Profile close out matrix.

MR. STIVER: Right.

DR. NETON: So just like in Number 

1, it certainly made it not an SEC issue. And 

it was closed as an SEC issue. But I would 

agree that as a Site Profile issue, it --

MR. STIVER: That's a good point, 

Jim.

DR. NETON: -- needs some further 
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detail.

MR. STIVER: Yes. Okay. Move on 

to Number 3, the Tritium Plume. This was a 

topic of discussion for another petitioner 

issue. This is the one that's going to be 

contingent to revision of the TBD issues, we'll 

defer pending on it.

So this is something that can be 

addressed in the new revision of the TBD for 

environmental intake. And we discussed this 

in the previous two Work Group meetings. I 

believe it was more in the 2010, and there's 

this idea that there was one sample that was 

particularly high, but so we raised that as a 

potential issue. So that should be included.

Any others, once again you know in 

the meeting it was discussed and SC&A had agreed 

that NIOSH's approach was probably adequate for 

the task. And this is on Page 56 of the 

transcript. There was this agreement reached 
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on this. 

MEMBER BEACH: Actually John, I 

didn't find it on Page 56 when I was looking. 

I think it was more covered later, but unless 

I missed it.

MR. STIVER: I can pull this up 

here, let's see.

MEMBER BEACH: I think that's where 

I had the biggest issue, was that these weren't 

very clear.

MR. STIVER: Really like I said, 

you know if it's not, was an actual close out, 

a vote on it. And we're going to go ahead and 

do this at this particular point in time. It 

was kind of a general agreement.

And some of these were agreed to in 

the matrix and you know they're discussed but 

there's kind of a general consensus that this 

would probably be okay.

I'm trying, I'm going through here 
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now. Let's see here, this is actually in my 

words. Yes, this is on Page 56 at the very top.

"We believe this issue is resolved. 

Basically we feel that using the RD 34 which is 

down gradient from presumed site of 

contamination. Their various parameters and 

model estimates, we feel that this is 

sufficiently claimant-favorable. And we 

believe this issue is resolved. And we have no 

problems with that." 

MEMBER MUNN: I'm not seeing that 

on Page 56.

MR. STIVER: Actually a vote --

MEMBER BEACH: I'm not either.

MR. STIVER: What's this now?

MEMBER BEACH: I'm not seeing it 

either, John. I don't know if we have 

different versions --

MR. KATZ: Probably, no there are 

slight differences in transcript versions 
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depending on whether you're using PA cleared 

and not PA cleared.

MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

MR. KATZ: So on. So you may just 

have just want to look several pages in either 

direction if you're going to try to get 

correspondence.

MEMBER MUNN: Well if we're working 

from the transcript that's posted on line 

though, which is what most of us end up doing.

MR. STIVER: Well let me go, this is 

the one that's posted on the website. Let me 

go back up there and get it right quick.

(Simultaneous speaking)

MR. KATZ: SC&A frequently gets 

transcripts before they are PA cleared and the 

page numbers won't correspond exactly.

MEMBER BEACH: Yes, John this is 

Josie. I guess for me if you could clear up why 

this was closed and have it in the matrix, I 
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think it would be easier.

Because this update for 2014 you 

know it talks about the tritium, but there's, 

it seems like there's a lot more of this issue 

that isn't being discussed possibly.

MR. STIVER: Well, you know maybe 

the best thing to do would be to go back and look 

at all the discussions and take away from it. 

Some of these were discussed in more than once. 

I believe this issue first came up at the 2009 

meeting.

MEMBER BEACH: Right.

MR. STIVER: And we discussed it 

again, and basically kind of a short -- period. 

I can certainly go ahead and put those -- you 

know we're not looking at the same matrix. I 

was trying to, but better than trying to resolve 

you know every line-by-line here in the 

meeting. It might be better just for me to go 

ahead and put in the update and send it around 
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for review.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: I'd 

appreciate that.

MR. STIVER: Okay.

MEMBER BEACH: It'd be helpful.

MR. STIVER: Alright then, I'll do 

that. Let's see.

Number 4, Uranium Fires. This is 

one where we had agreed to close it because we 

had gone through as you can see up here under 

the SC&A initial review, NIOSH response. This 

is, I think this might have been before I was 

even involved in Santa Susana.

But we'd reviewed 40 Rad Safety 

Incident Reports specific to uranium fires. 

And we felt that -- we were in agreement with 

the conclusions with NIOSH that the bounding

estimate was possible for the fire incidents 

based on review of these documents.

And again, I can go back and pull out 
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some more detail on that for the update to the 

matrix.

MR. BARTON: John, I don't quite 

remember either from back in 2010. Was it 

proposed that there would be an incident based 

dose assignment, based on these uranium fires? 

Or was that going to be subsumed into the 

uranium coworker model essentially? I don't 

know which one --

MR. STIVER: I don't recall, to 

tell you the truth. I believe they're in 

enough of these reports that we really felt that 

there was a coverage of the different 

incidents, that you know were a worker to be, 

and during that timeframe that, that could be 

then worked into the coworker model.

Now maybe that's a good point that 

you bring up. In that --

MR. BARTON: Well I guess maybe, 

we'll put that over -- I mean does NIOSH have 
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any thoughts on that? On whether there would 

have to be a separate sort of intake model, 

incident based intake model based on these 

uranium fires which took place?

Although I think if I remember, a 

lot of them took place pre-'65, at least we know 

the incidents reports that we have, I think a 

lot of them were pre-'65.

MR. STIVER: Yes, just looking at 

the --

MR. BARTON: It wouldn't be 

relevant anymore but I'm sure some took place 

after that as well.

MR. STIVER: Most of them were late 

50s, early 60s.

MR. BARTON: Right.

MR. STIVER: Now that doesn't mean 

the fact that we didn't have problems later on.

DR. NETON: I'll take a look at that 

to see if they persisted into the NIOSH SEC 
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periods.

MEMBER MUNN: One of the few 

memories I have of those earlier meetings that 

we had, was a relative degree of comfort with 

the level of information that we had with 

respect to the fires.

That's one of the few things that we 

seemed to have a large number of resources for 

obtaining data.

MR. STIVER: Yes, I think the issue 

was, was there sufficient data to use it to 

bound these incidents?

MEMBER MUNN: Yes, but --

MR. STIVER: How was -- we didn't 

really look at implementation so much as was the 

data there.

MEMBER MUNN: Yes, and as I said, 

one of the few clear memories I have is we did 

feel more confident with the information we had 

on the fires, than almost anything else.
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MR. STIVER: I guess the question 

that Jim brought up, and you know in my mind at 

least, it's clearly an SEC issue. Now it 

becomes a Site Profile issue -- how is that 

going to be implemented in the coworker model?

DR. NETON: Right. And we've 

wrestled -- this is Jim again. We've wrestled 

with this in the past. Our, do coworker models 

adequately bound incidents? And our position 

has typically been, yes, if they're few and far 

between, it bounds them.

And if they become fairly routine, 

then it becomes a chronic exposure which is 

modeled in the coworker's situation, so we'd 

have to look at that.

MR. STIVER: Yes. So yes, I think 

for now that the best approach would be to take 

it off the SEC dockets and move it over to a Site 

Profile issue.

At some point we're going to have to 
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rebaseline the matrix anyway given the time 

that's elapsed here and the changes that have 

taken place.

MEMBER MUNN: Now as though it 

weren't confusing enough already.

MR. STIVER: Now the rest of these 

are kind of contingent upon our being able to 

review the coworker models and the TBD 

revision, with the exception of Number 9.

And this was kind of a question, 

there was kind of two layers to it really. One 

was which areas should be considered in the SEC 

Petition. And so this is something that was 

kind of a snapshot, you know back in the 2009 

timeframe.

We weren't quite, hadn't quite 

sorted out which of the four sites are going to 

be included in the SEC. Was it going to be Area 

IV, you know, Downey, Canoga, De Soto? Were 

they all to be combined, and if so then what are 
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the start dates for each?

So that it was kind of uncertain as 

to how this was all going to be handled. That's 

something that has been addressed and this is 

again, we can work our way down here.

Kind of getting a, something going 

on with the document it looks like. Let me pull 

back up my version here, thumb down to it.

MEMBER MUNN: Well, now this one 

truly should be in abeyance, should it not?

MR. STIVER: Well, I --

DR. NETON: I would think this is 

closed.

MR. STIVER: I think this should be 

closed and the reason being is that the other 

SECs have already been --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER MUNN: Well, they're 

actually done, aren't they?

MR. STIVER: They're done. De 
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Soto has its own SEC. And Area IV has its. The 

question was how were they getting it? Were 

they all going to be combined or not? We know 

that they're not.

MEMBER MUNN: They're not.

MR. STIVER: The other issue, what 

would be the start date? Well now we that we 

have this Area IV, you know we agreed with NIOSH 

that 1954 was, or excuse me, there was nothing 

going on you know before '55. So that we agreed 

to 1955 start date was a solid date.

MEMBER MUNN: And that being the 

case, there actually is nothing really left.

MR. STIVER: There's really 

nothing else to discuss on this particular 

issue then. This is one that really we can 

close.

MEMBER MUNN: Good, let's do it.

MR. STIVER: Okay, so let's do it.

And the last I will go through in the 
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update, the ones can be updated at this point, 

and annotate those that are waiting on NIOSH 

work products before we can complete them. And 

then send that around to the Work Group for 

concurrence and review.

MEMBER ANDERSON: Sounds like a 

plan.

MR. STIVER: Any disagreement 

there?

MEMBER BEACH: No. Not from here.

MR. STIVER: Okay. I guess that's 

pretty much the end of what we can really 

discuss as far as open issues. The only other 

items we have on here would be comments from the 

stakeholders, petitioners, schedule a new 

meeting. And then any discussion about the 

upcoming Board meeting, how we want to handle 

that?

MEMBER BEACH: Or some tasking.

MR. KATZ: This is Ted.
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MR. STIVER: Go ahead, Ted.

MR. KATZ: It would be kind of in 

the order of these items that up, why don't you 

guys discuss how you're going to handle the 

Board meeting in terms of presentations and 

what you'll cover, and who?

And then that'll sort of give the 

folks that are on the line from the public, up 

to the end to comment on everything they've 

heard as well as whatever they might come with, 

they might be bringing to the table, you know 

separate and aside from what you guys have 

covered.

MR. STIVER: Yes, I think, I was 

hoping to have the internal coworker model 

finished up by then. If we don't I can 

certainly give kind of a, I guess a status 

update. And you know where we are, what we 

think the main issues are. Just more of an 

informative type discussion.
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And well maybe that's the best way 

to begin with because you know NIOSH certainly 

is going to have time to review it and come back 

with any kind of comments or responses before 

the meeting.

Can certainly do a similar thing for 

our review of the neutron to photon ratio paper. 

Maybe a few slides related to that.

DR. NETON: Hey, Ted. This is Jim. 

I thought we would, it might be best to start 

with Lara giving sort of an overview like she 

did just at the start of this meeting about what 

progress we've made in the last years. And the 

status of where we are. And maybe SC&A could 

follow along with their review of the product?

MR. STIVER: Yes, that would make, 

that would be a simpler way to do it. I mean 

logical for you guys to go ahead and present 

what you've done, and we can share what --

DR. NETON: Where we are, you know, 
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and then back a little bit further back, you 

know we've got SECs here and through a certain 

time period, and now we're working on remaining 

issues, and here's what we've done.

And there is a pretty lengthy 

history here that needs to be described. And 

there's some valid reasons for it, but not to 

make excuses, but we can put that forward.

MEMBER MUNN: Yes, this is Wanda. 

This is such a complicated site and it's been 

kind of hanging in the background for so long. 

It seems logical to me that we should have both 

NIOSH and SC&A present their respective 

histories of where we are.

Otherwise I don't see how Board 

Members who were not privy to this particular 

meeting, and these documents, can even start to 

grasp how complex this particular site is.

MR. KATZ: Right, this is Ted. I 

already have both Lara and John Stiver slated 
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just as you're talking, just suggesting, to 

give back to back presentations to try to cover 

the waterfront of where we are, how we've gotten 

here, and where we're going.

So I think if you cover all three of 

those points, and given we have new Members 

since then and so on. And give a pretty just 

rich accounting, to give everybody the same 

baseline for the work that'll you know, be much 

more sort of intensive going forward on Santa 

Susana to finish the work up there. So I think 

that would be great.

DR. NETON: And I think as in the 

past, I think we can share Lara's presentation 

with SC&A so that we don't have a lot of 

duplication of background information maybe.

MR. STIVER: Oh sure, yes. That 

would good.

MEMBER MUNN: That's appreciated.

DR. NETON: It would be much 
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appreciated by everyone I believe.

MR. KATZ: Super. So I think I 

have a, I don't -- let me see if I can actually 

let you have a look at what I have slated. I 

think I have, yes, I have a half an hour slated 

between the two of you John. And Lara and John 

to sort of give an accounting you know.

And you know if you can't that done 

in 30 minutes, you know the next session is the 

public comments session and if you run over a 

little bit that's okay because we can just 

continue on with the public session.

I mean the folks that'll be there at 

the public session, you know will be interested 

in the topic, so they'll -- but if you get into, 

try to keep it approximately within 30 minutes 

between the two of you that'd be great.

MR. BARTON: Yes, I don't think 

that'll be a problem. We should be able to do 

that.
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DR. HUGHES: This is Lara, I 

haven't finished my presentation yet, but it 

will be very similar to the information that's 

in the Work Group update that I'll send out. It 

will be a little more detailed maybe on some of 

the, you know, the coworker model and the 

neutron-photon ratio.

But in essence that will be the 

information that will be presented.

MR. KATZ: Yes, but the thing Lara, 

I think that needs to be in. I think you could 

take from sort of a page from John here, is I 

mean John covered in the outset of this Work 

Group meeting, just a bringing up to date of how 

we got here.

And Lara, you may want to do a little 

bit more of that since some Board Members have 

not, were not around for the older stuff. And 

others won't remember even though they were.

So a little bit more of the 
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background before you get into where we are with 

the status of things in progress, would I think 

be helpful for the whole Board.

And of course John, you know John 

can cover matters that you don't cover, but it'd 

be good for you to give that initial review.

MR. STIVER: Okay. If we all work 

together to make sure we have all the bases 

covered and there's a minimal amount of 

duplication.

MEMBER MUNN: Great.

MR. STIVER: As far as formal 

tasking of the, and what I gather from this and 

I sense, is it was as these documents become 

available we're just going to have them start 

working on it.

MR. KATZ: Yes, absolutely.

MR. STIVER: Fine. And as far as 

another Work Group meeting which we will 

obviously need, I know we have a Fernald meeting 
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the first week in December. I think we've --

and now Josie, you said that probably wouldn't 

work for you.

MEMBER BEACH: No, I'm not 

available the first week.

MR. STIVER: And you get too much 

further beyond that, we're getting into the 

holiday season so.

MR. KATZ: Oh, let me just, I think 

this is predicated on, John, on how quickly SC&A 

can get its reviews out. And then giving the 

DCAS staff time to then consider those reviews.

So, you know if that already would 

be you know, if December would be timely, you 

know, then don't have to do the first week in 

December, where not everybody disappears 

immediately in December. So we can go later in 

December before Christmas too.

MR. STIVER: I think my thinking on 

that was that we would probably have the, and 
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NIOSH would had time, we'd have had time to 

produce the internal coworker model review.

NIOSH would have had time to review 

it, and that would probably be enough to you 

know to warrant a face-to-face meeting. Even 

if we had nothing else done at that point.

MR. KATZ: Sure. So anyway figure 

that out. If you think it works out that you 

know, in middle December before Christmas, we'd 

be ready for a meeting then let me know, and the 

Work Group know, and we'll schedule something, 

or try to schedule something.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Ted, let's 

try not to get you know, December. Hopefully 

well, it depends but I'll probably be up in 

Denver for a little over a week.

MR. KATZ: Okay. Yes, so that's 

fine. Obviously all of it is predicated on the 

Work Group Members being available, so if that 

week's definitely covered, that, but if that's 
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pretty bad for you in terms of timing Phil, then 

we might as well just go ahead and think about 

January instead.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Well that 

would be fine, let's go with January.

MR. KATZ: Okay, let's do that 

then.

MR. STIVER: Okay, that'll be fine. 

There's lots of --

(Simultaneous speaking)

We'll have lots of topics to discuss 

then.

MR. KATZ: Yes, Okay. Good.

MEMBER BEACH: Well, we have our 

Kansas City Work Group meeting scheduled. 

Maybe we could back-to-back it there.

MR. KATZ: Yes, and that's all, I'm 

always you know, in favor of that. Where we 

have more than one Board Member attending if 

it's a face-to-face, so that's great. I can 
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get John, you know the date for that. You'll 

have it in your records.

MEMBER BEACH: January 8th.

MR. KATZ: Yes.

MR. STIVER: Yes, that'll be fine. 

That'll probably be better for everybody.

MR. KATZ: Okay. Very good. Yes, 

there's another meeting also in January I 

believe that's face-to-face but maybe not. 

Maybe that's a Subcommittee. Anyway.

Okay, then. So I think that takes 

care of planning for the LA Board meeting. So 

Phil you may want to open this up now for the 

public members.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Okay, Ted. 

Unless there's anything else we need to touch 

on, I would actually like to hear from, I don't 

know who all's on line. I understand Bonnie 

is, I’d like to hear what she has to say.

MS. KLEA: Hi, this Bonnie. I do 
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have a question. Could you go over the exotic 

fuels again? There were three of them, 

thorium, americium and what was the other one?

MR. BARTON: This is Bob Barton, I 

threw those out as potential examples where we, 

and NIOSH agrees, we all really need to sort of 

run that to ground, to see what exposure 

potential there is out there.

Just some of the radionuclides that 

are currently covered by the coworker model, 

which is uranium, plutonium, and mixed fission 

products. So I wasn't in any way implying that 

those are, those three are the only three, or 

it's necessarily we need to worry about them.

But we need to be able to vet that 

issue to see if there's a potential for intakes 

of those sort of more rare contaminants that 

might have been encountered at the site.

So I put those out as examples, and 

I believe NIOSH's response was that they agree 
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that they need to be able like I said, vet that 

issue and make sure that we're covering all our 

bases as far as what the internal exposure 

potential was at the site.

MS. KLEA: Okay. I'll defer to 

somebody else who wants to ask a question. I 

don't know if, John Pace are you there?

MS. BARRIE: Yes, I'm here and 

unfortunately --

MS. KLEA: That's Terrie.

MS. BARRIE: Yes, this is Terrie 

Barrie. Unfortunately I missed like 45 

minutes of the call this morning. Something 

else came up, and I had to get off, but I do have 

a statement from D'Lanie Blaze. So if I can 

read that into the record?

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Okay, Terrie 

go for it.

MR. KATZ: And Terrie, if it's at 

all lengthy will you please then email it to me, 
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if you're going to read into the record as well.

MS. BARRIE: Sure, I'd be happy to, 

Ted.

MR. KATZ: Thank you very much.

MS. BARRIE: Okay. This is from 

D'Lanie Blaze, she's an advocate for Santa 

Susana Field Workers also and she says, "We 

eagerly anticipate the Advisory Board's visit 

on behalf of Santa Susana Field Laboratory 

personnel of Areas I, II, III and IV.

Area IV personnel have awaited the 

extension of the SEC into 1965 for several 

years. It is justified and will be a positive 

step in the right direction, thanks to the 

efforts of SEC petitioner, Bonnie Klea.

On the matter of Areas I, II and III 

personnel, these areas have been excluded from 

EEOICPA in error. We are confident that once 

the Advisory Board gains fresh perspective on 

the facility's layout, and has an opportunity 
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to thoughtfully review available site history, 

that the correct decision to support inclusion 

of Areas I, II and III to EEOICPA will be made.

These areas do satisfy the 

legislative statute that defines a DOE Facility 

under EEOICPA. Thank you for the opportunity to 

comment, and to serve on behalf of all SSFL, 

Santa Susana Field Laboratory personnel." And 

that's the end of her statement. Thank you.

MS. KLEA: Thanks, Terrie.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Thanks.

MS. KLEA: Now. John Pace, did you 

take your phone off mute?

MR. PACE: Yes. I got it off mute 

now.

MS. KLEA: Okay, it's your turn.

MR. PACE: Oh, my turn. Okay.

MS. KLEA: Introduce yourself and 

your experience so they know who they're 

talking to.
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MR. PACE: Okay. I'm John Pace. 

I worked at the SR reactor in 1959. I was there 

at the time of explosion, I mean the nuclear 

accident. And I worked there from January 

through November of 1959.

I've talked to some of you already 

on the fact you're addressing right now, but I 

would like to make a statement to you that 

there's not much you may, you cannot compare the 

SR reactor Santa Susana area with other sites. 

It was completely different in the type of work 

that we were doing, being experimental work is 

what we were doing there.

It wasn't a commercial reactor that 

was making electricity like all the others. 

Every day was an experiment. So you're going 

to have a very difficult time, trying to figure 

out all of the numbers you like to talk about, 

you'll not find what you're looking for at Santa 

Susana. So it's going to be a real hard one for 
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you.

We got rid of that Atomics 

International, now you have Boeing that are 

trying to cover up on all these things that 

happened at in 1959. That's why I'm speaking 

up, I can't speak for the other years. But in 

1959 I can.

And they'll be an ongoing question 

marks in your mind like you've been talking 

about and, but what I wanted to let you know 

also, is that when the accident occurred on July 

the 13th, 1959.

The very last to shut the reactor 

down, within minutes or seconds before it blew 

up, well all that radiation in the core reactor 

was let out into the atmosphere. It's been 

covered up and then said that it was all in the 

holding tanks, but that's untrue.

They got filled up because it 

actually started at 5:30 in the afternoon and 
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went all through that afternoon into the 

evening, and our evening crew there was about 

ready to give up on being able to shut it down. 

And the only thing left to do was after the tanks 

were full was let it straight out into the 

atmosphere.

And that contamination went over 

the San Fernando Valley and in the valley area. 

I was there at the time with the men and then 

my crew in the control room.

I wasn't there when they pushed the 

bypass button that let the radiation out of the 

reactor out in the atmosphere, it was just a 

very short time after I came walking into the 

control room. And it had happened just before 

I gotten there to go to work.

So these are the things that need to 

be said, and I like to let all of you know about 

this. It'll help you on some clues on the Santa 

Susana site reactor, some information you just 
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can't find.

There's information you just will 

not find because it was thrown out. A lot of 

it was thrown out in the back in the trash pile 

in the back.

We had a very bad accident on the 

vertical fuel elements and it contaminated the 

whole building.

You couldn't get around the 

building for two weeks basically because it was 

contaminated so badly and all the things, 

information, the filing cabinets, furniture in 

the offices, all that was thrown on the outside 

because it was contaminated too highly to have 

it in the office area, so this may help you too 

with why can't we find information.

There's a lot more involved -- oh, 

there's one other thing you could, is you talked 

about explosions just a minute or two ago, that

and the 50s issues you were talking about at 
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first.

In 1959 when I was there, I was part 

of it, they had an explosion in the high bay 

area, we was pulling out the pump that had 

caused the nuclear accident. It had, they had 

detected a leak and it caused the accident. We 

was pulling the pump out, as they got it all 

unbolted it came out of the containment area.

When it came out of the tainted area 

it allowed oxygen to go down where the pump was, 

and we had a huge explosion. The flames went 

clear up about 50, 45, 50 feet in the air to the 

top of the building.

And that's when I and the persons 

down the hall and two others, three of us, four 

altogether got thrown across the room from the 

explosion. We got contaminated very badly.

And we had to take showers of course 

to be able to get, had to take about four or five 

showers to get a large percent of that off us.
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And we also believed, all of us 

believed that radiation and all that came from 

that explosion, when we're not wearing masks.

So this will give you an idea of how 

terrible it was at the SRE reactor in 1959, 

there's much more I could go on, but other 

people want to talk but I wanted to get those 

things to you and so I'll turn the thing over 

to others. If you have questions, I'd be happy 

to answer questions.

MR. KATZ: Could we get your name 

again, I'm sorry.

MR. PACE: Yes, my name is John 

Pace, P-A-C-E is how you spell my last name.

MS. KLEA: And John, this is 

Bonnie, John just gave a big presentation here 

in California to a large group of people about 

his experiences and he had photos of everything 

he's talking about.

He had photos of the debris pile 
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behind the reactor with office equipment, all 

the log books, the plastic they were using to 

cover the floor to help lower the radiation.

He was there and he can testify that 

the log books became debris, that they had to 

take their badges off and put in a red safe 

because they were over exposed.

They did work without badges. 

Every picture shows them working without any 

breathing devices, nothing over their face. 

So and John has, John Pace has a claim. He has 

a claim that has been denied. So because --

He has multiple skin cancers, large 

skin cancers. And he's been denied 

compensation. So you cannot do an adequate 

dose on John, I don't care what kind of coworker 

model you make. The workers when they were 

over exposed had to take their badges off and 

they worked without their badges.

Many workers can testify to that 
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fact. That they did not want to lose their job 

and stay home, they needed to work, they needed 

the hours. And they worked without their 

badges.

So he is a good eyewitness for all 

of us, and I just got a story from Terrie Barrie, 

and maybe Terrie, are you still on the line?

MS. BARRIE: Yes, I am.

MS. KLEA: Maybe this could go out 

to the whole Board?

MS. BARRIE: Sure, I can do that.

MS. KLEA: I don't have everyone's 

contact information anymore, but this is a very 

interesting story about his work experience. 

And it mirrors other workers who say that they 

did work without a badge.

Now, and of course with my case, I 

was a secretary and I was not badged. And I had 

no explanation of what was happening or where 

I couldn't go.
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I was given a car from the Atomic 

Energy Commission and I delivered paychecks to 

every building, every week, and of course I 

developed bladder cancer which is second 

amongst all the cancers at Santa Susana.

And a very sloppy practice of -- to 

protect the workers. And most of the staff, 

the administrative staff they weren't badged. 

And John has, John Pace has pictures of the 

administrative staff coming into the reactor 

building in just street clothes.

And he showed that to the meeting, 

where you've got the monitored workers working 

in covers. The administrative staff just came 

in, in their work clothes standing there in 

those pictures. So you've got a whole variety 

of problems.

MR. PACE: Yes, our badges were 

taken away from us. And some badges were taken 

away from us at, right after the accident 
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occurred. They were all pulled, taken away and 

never given back to me, or the others.

I worked there until November the 

9th and that's why you're not going to find any 

dose reconstruction for all these, at the SRE 

reactor. So you're working in the dark all of 

you are. And it's never going to be solved by 

trying to compare it to other sites.

Other sites had no comparison to 

Santa Susana and you can discuss it, all of you 

whatever you're talking about, but a lot of 

questions marks on your mind.

But none of the other sites had a 

nuclear accident. None of the other sites tore 

a reactor apart. We tore our reactor apart to 

repair it, from Marvin J. Fox was the Director 

of Santa Susana that involved SRE reactor at 

that time.

And he's the one that took the 

badges from us. He's the one that had us take 
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and restart the reactor up again for two weeks 

to find out what the problem, what caused the 

accident.

And at that time during two weeks we 

ran a damaged reactor after a nuclear accident, 

and all that radiation was leaking out through 

the top of the reactor, through the broken 

O-rings. And the ring, the seal that goes 

around outside the reactor, it had leaks in it 

also.

And so there's so much to know about 

the SRE reactor. I have a lot of the clues for 

you. And I can sit down with anybody and tell, 

and go step-by-step like I did on Tuesday with 

Pat, and Lara, and a couple others there.

MS. KLEA: John, did you submit 

pictures? All your pictures on your claim? 

Did you submit those to --

MR. PACE: Yes, I did.

MS. KLEA: Okay. So they have 
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everything in your claim.

And also I'm wondering in this 

program, we have a lot of workers who were 

working on the SRE who submitted claims for 

cancer and I was wondering if you used data 

that's been submitted by claimants for the good 

of everyone?

MR. PACE: I haven't not with 

claimants but you --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MS. KLEA: No, I'm asking NIOSH, 

I'm asking NIOSH if they use --

MR. PACE: Oh, excuse me.

MS. KLEA: -- information that's 

been submitted by claimants to help everyone?

DR. NETON: Yes, we do. When 

information that may be useful for other 

claimants, we do take advantage of that and 

populate our database with that information.

MS. KLEA: Okay and when post SRE, 
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we have SNAP-8ER and SNAP-8DR, they both 

failed. They released tons of radiation, one 

was in '64 and the other one is in '69.

So those are two other large reactor 

accidents that happened and they, those 

reactors produced the large tritium plume 

that's in the ground water.

MR. PACE: Okay, there's one other 

thing, if we stop just a second there, comes to 

my mind is, now you have other people that 

you're trying to work with at SRE on their 

claims, one thing you've got to take in mind is 

the SRE reactor, first off, that's why I can 

relate to it, others out there too, but my 

reactor I worked at did not have a containment 

building.

Now other reactors that was built 

after '59 had containment buildings. Now when 

you add that, I mean, it was experimental like 

I said just earlier.
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When you take and have experiments 

going on all the time on reactors that didn't 

have a containment building, you're stopping 

and you're starting reactors, scram the 

reactor.

And every time you scram the 

reactor, you've got to let all the cover gas out 

of the reactor and it's supposed to go into the 

tanks, all them tanks. But what you don't 

think about it is that building is leaking 

reactor out.

Especially after that, during the 

accident, after the accident, and we was 

repairing it and various things, radiation was 

leaking out of that building and it was going 

all over the whole, all over the mountain up 

there. All Areas I, II, III, and IV was getting 

radiation in all those areas.

Now you had people turning in claims 

and you said oh, no, you wasn't in the area IV, 
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that's where all the radiation was. Now you've 

got to think about it, radiation doesn't know 

boundaries.

It's like a fire, smoke in the air, 

it's going to go where the wind takes it, where 

ever it decides it wants to go. Radiation is 

the exact same way. Boundaries don't mean one 

thing when it comes to exposure for all the 

people who's worked on the hill.

Firemen, guards, secretaries, 

anybody that was, worked on the hill all got 

exposed to radiation from the SRE reactor plus 

the SNAP and all the others that was mentioned.

That radiation went all over so I 

want you to keep that in mind too when you're 

doing all this figuring you’re doing. I think 

sometimes you get so tied up in all these little 

figures sometimes, you kind of forget the 

picture.

It gives me that feeling because I'm 
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not a scientist, but anyway that's, so just keep 

these things in mind. And I'd be glad to offer 

or work with anybody that needs information on, 

basically I'm, to the best of my knowledge, the 

last one that was there at the SRE reactor in 

1959 to be able to give you some information. 

And I'm here and willing to help all of you on 

it. So, I'll turn my time back.

MS. KLEA: I've got just one kind of 

an interesting comment to add, this is Bonnie. 

On the SNAP program, our, the administrator of 

that whole SNAP reactor program was Herman 

DeCamp and when they closed down our programs 

on SNAP, he went on to become the President of 

Three Mile Island and he was running that 

program when it had a near fatal accident.

And he, he has a history, all the 

reactors at Santa Susana had a history of 

running until they failed. And then they wrote 

data on the high power they achieved to help 
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compete, to get contracts for more reactor 

work.

So essentially that's what they 

did. Everyone ran until it failed and then 

they bragged about the high power they 

achieved.

MR. PACE: And Dr. Fox was over our 

reactor whereas if he, I'm not sure if you 

already know who Dr. Marvin J. Fox is, but he's 

the one that was there that helped develop the 

atomic bomb, A-bomb I guess you'd call it, that 

bombed over in Japan and the like.

He had a lot of knowledge in 

radiation and he was a top scientist there, but 

he was the one overseeing the SRE reactor. And 

when it come time to restart, to repair the 

reactor, he was the one that made decisions to 

start tearing the SRE reactor apart.

And that was a very, very, dangerous 

assignment. Taking, picking up to the top of 
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the reactor and they tell you to dig around to 

get small pieces out of the reactor. Fuel 

slugs, there's 81 fuel slugs that broke off the 

fuel elements it was all laying down in the 

bottom of the reactor.

And Dr. Fox took and had a piece of 

equipment made, it delayed the stages, except 

around October at this time of year, we pulled 

those broken pieces out of the reactor. Before 

that we had to do a lot of work on the reactor 

by, the seat of our pants, you might say it.

We were making tiers up to get the 

broken pieces down in the bottom of the reactor, 

into piles in the bottom of the reactor, using 

TV cameras and a drop light down the reactor to 

do that, so we could get that equipment in 

there.

Some of these things that go on, I 

know went on a long time, I try to give you a 

picture. It was very, very dangerous and 
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higher radiation in through the building for 

24/7 for a lot of months there, from July clear 

to November when I was there.

You can't go by film badges. You 

guys, all you've got lots of basic, me to tell 

you and then what little information you can 

find from Atomics International, so I'll let 

somebody talk. I don't want to take up all the 

time.

MS. KLEA: This is Bonnie, I just 

want to add one more note, in talking about 

getting Areas I, II, III sick workers paid for. 

We had, I've written up accounts from all the 

workers parked in Area I, which is the furthest 

area from Area IV. And they all had their cars 

taken and all their cars got repainted after 

this incident.

MR. PACE: And I've heard the same 

type story.

MS. KLEA: If anyone's turned in a 
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claim from the other areas, then they included 

that information, but it's very important to 

know how far and wide the radiation went when 

they did their releases.

And also our drinking water 

reservoir was just off-site and I'll talk about 

that when you come here for your tour. I have 

pictures and it was drained.

It was drained and they, when they 

found high levels of radiation and chemicals 

because it was connected to Area IV by the Burro 

Flats fault.

And so it was built in 1919 to 

collect water runoff from two canyons, you know 

into that reservoir. And they did monitoring.

And once they started monitoring, 

they immediately built a concrete diversion 

that took it right to the river. And in 1969 

it was closed forever. But the whole community 

drank out of those reservoirs.
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Anyway just something that I will 

point out when you're here. I hope you can stop, 

anyone who's doing the tour in November will 

stop here first. I have a couple maps, one you 

can borrow which shows the whole site as one.

And it shows you that across the 

road from Area IV, was Area III. It was only 

divided by a road. And that was the same on the 

other side. At the reactor on the other side 

of the reactor across the field was the big 

cafeteria for all the workers on the hill to go 

to.

And those people they all died of 

lung cancer, most of them. And they can't get 

paid because the company they worked for, the 

subcontractor they worked for in the cafeteria 

is no longer. So it, the damage spread wide and 

far. I know I'll look forward to seeing you all 

in November. Anyone else? Anyone on the 

line?
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MR. KATZ: Yes, thank you.

MR. PACE: Again I'm thinking a 

little bit so that we get there, Bonnie.

MS. KLEA: Well, I hope so.

MR. KATZ: Thank you, Bonnie. And 

thank you, Mr. Pace.

MR. PACE: You're welcome.

MS. KLEA: Terrie Barrie just sent 

out the story on John Pace's presentation here 

in Los Angeles so please read that. And if 

there's any data from his claim, that he 

submitted, all the pictures. Then use that 

also please.

MR. KATZ: Right. Thank you, 

Bonnie.

MR. PACE: I’d be happy to send 

pictures. Other pictures because some of 

those are pretty grainy you get from DOE and 

anyways I'll not say anymore. But I just, 

please help me on my dose reconstruction.
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Get me where I can go back to DOL and 

be able to get past on my deal. I've been 

working since 2001 to get people to listen to 

it, my information. And I'm telling the truth 

what I say.

I was there, I was hands down on my 

ears, my eyes, my everything on me was there at 

the time these things happened. So please, 

believe the things I have to say, and thank you 

everybody.

MR. KATZ: Thank you, Mr. Pace. So 

I think with that are you ready to adjourn?

MEMBER MUNN: Yes. We certainly 

are.

MR. KATZ: Okay. So we much 

appreciate all the public comments, and we will 

see you out there in just a couple weeks.

MEMBER BEACH: Good bye.

CHAIRMAN SCHOFIELD: Thanks 

everybody, take care.
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MEMBER BEACH: Bye.

MEMBER MUNN: Bye-bye.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter went off the record at 12:53 p.m.)