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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES 

 1 CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL 

 NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

 ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND 

 WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

 WORK GROUP ON OAK RIDGE HOSPITAL 

+ + + + + 

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 7, 2009 

+ + + + + 

 The Work Group meeting convened in 

the Zurich Room of the Cincinnati Airport 

Marriott Hotel, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron, 

Kentucky at 9:30 a.m., James Lockey, Chairman, 

presiding. 

PRESENT: 

JAMES LOCKEY, Chair 

JOHN POSTON 

ROBERT W. PRESLEY 

GENEVIEVE ROESSLER* 

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD 
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 2

ALSO PRESENT: 

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official 

HANS BEHLING, SC&A* 

ARJUN MAKHIJANI, SC&A 

JOHN MAURO, SC&A* 

JAMES NETON, NIOSH OCAS 

LARRY ELLIOTT, NIOSH OCAS 

LAVON RUTHERFORD, NIOSH OCAS* 

MICHAEL RAFKY, ESQ., HHS 

LARA HUGHES, NIOSH OCAS 

EMILY HOWELL, HHS* 

LAURIE BREYER, NIOSH OCAS* 

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor* 

SARAH CUMMINGS, The Public* 

*(present via telephone) 
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TABLE OF CONTENTS 

 3

Welcome and Roll Call 

Ted Katz, DFO................. 4 

Welcome and Overview of Agenda 

 James Lockey, Chair........... 7 

Review of Information Provided by 

 Lara Hughes, Ph.D............ 11 

Discussion of Steps Forward and 

Recommendations..................... 68 

Adjourn............................. 106 
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 4 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

 (9:30 a.m.) 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Let's see, who is 

on the telephone right now? 

 MR. KATZ: It is on mute. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: It's on mute 

right now? 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, let me do roll 

call first. 

 Okay, good morning everybody. This 

is the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker 

Health. This is the Oak Ridge Hospital Work 

Group, our first meeting. And we are going to 

begin with roll call beginning with members in 

the room. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Robert Presley. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: James Lockey, 

Chair. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Phil Schofield. 

 MEMBER POSTON: John Poston. 

 MR. KATZ: And do we have any Board 
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members on the line? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Gen was going to 

call in. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, she was. I got an 

email from her. Gen, are you with us yet? 

 Okay, then carrying on, OCAS and 

ORAU Team in the Room. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Larry Elliot. 

 DR. NETON: Jim Neton, OCAS. Not 

conflicted. 

 DR. HUGHES: Lara Hughes, OCAS. 

Not conflicted. 

 MR. KATZ: And Larry Elliott is not 

conflicted as well, I believe. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: And on the line, 

OCAS/ORAU team and speak to conflict, please. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: LaVon Rutherford, 

OCAS. Not conflicted. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay and then SC&A in 

the room. 
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 6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Arjun Makhijani, 

not conflicted. 

 MR. KATZ: SC&A on the phone. 

 DR. MAURO: John Mauro. Not 

conflicted. 

 DR. BEHLING: Hans Behling, not 

conflicted. 

 MR. KATZ: Welcome all of you. And 

then federal employees or contractors in the 

room. 

 MR. RAFKY: Michael Rafky, HHS. 

Not conflicted. 

 MR. KATZ: And on the line? 

 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS. 

Not conflicted. 

 MS. ADAMS: Nancy Adams, NIOSH 

contractor. Not conflicted. 

 MR. KATZ: Welcome again. And then 

do we have members of the public on the line? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Sarah Cummings. 

 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry, can you -- 
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oh. Sarah Cummings? 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Sarah. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Thank you. 

 MR. KATZ: Any other members of the 

public or staff of congressional offices on 

the line? 

 (No response.) 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, then. For 

everyone on the line, let me just remind you 

please mute your phones except when you are 

addressing the group. And for those of you 

who don't have a mute button, use *6. Press 

*6 and that will mute your phone. If you want 

to come back on again to be able to speak, 

just press *6 again. And if you need to leave 

the call at some point, please hang up and 

dial back in. Don't put your phone on hold 

because it will disrupt the line for everyone 

else. 

 Thank you. And Jim, it is yours. 
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 8 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well welcome, 

everybody. This is the Oak Ridge Hospital 

Working Group, and I distributed sort of an 

agenda. I would like everybody to look at 

that agenda and this modified add to it or 

subtract to it as we see fit and then we will 

work forward. 

 I would sort of like to have a go 

of this that we are complete, if we can get 

complete for your task today and if we can try 

to bring this to a close, that would be 

absolutely incredible. That would go with our 

track record of the last committee I chaired 

we brought to a close. So I want to stick 

like glue to that track record because I like 

that philosophy, bring things to a close. 

 What I did on this was I sort of 

outline some of the things I think I did this 

and then I got the email from, I think from 

Lara. And it sort of outlines the 

responsibility, the recommendations, the 
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 9 original petition cohort which was from '58 

through '59 and then the NIOSH class 

definition that they expanded from May 1950 to 

December 1959. And then I also listed that 

there was an SEC granted for Oak Ridge 

Institute of Nuclear Studies for those who 

were employed from May 15, 1950 through 1963. 

 So I sort of wanted to give everybody the 

time frame so we all are sort of starting on a 

level surface. 

 Any additions or corrections to 

this preliminary agenda? Anybody have any 

suggestions? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Jim, I want to 

check in. This is Gen Roessler. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Gen, welcome. We 

are sorry for your loss. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Well, I got on 

the phone late, too. It seems I am at the age 

where a lot of people are dying, and it is 

just kind of tough. But anyway, I can hear 
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you fine. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well welcome. We 

are glad you are able to join us today, 

getting up so early. What time is it there? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Oh, it's not bad. 

 I'm always in the office by now. It is 8:30 

or so here. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So no additions 

or corrections? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Not that I know 

of. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. So then -- 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Ted, remind me. 

How do I mute? I have forgotten. 

 MR. KATZ: It is *6. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: *6. Okay, 

thanks. 

 MR. KATZ: You're welcome. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So one of the 

things that I did earlier on this week is I 

reviewed the SEC petition evaluation that you 
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 11 had put together. And NIOSH did this pretty 

much on their own because of conflict of 

interest issues. And you are the one that 

actually wrote the whole document. Right? 

 DR. HUGHES: That is correct. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And I thought it 

was well written. But I did go through it and 

I came up with some additional questions or 

clarifications I need from that. 

 DR. HUGHES: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Did anybody else 

have a chance to go through that again? 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, I went through 

it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. So I think 

that might be a good starting point, just to 

run through this one time and see if anybody 

has any points that I could make or questions 

they would like to ask. And do you want to 

start with that or I can start. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: You go ahead and 
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start. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay, let me 

start. I thought it was very complete. Okay? 

 And when I re-reviewed it, I saw the 

interaction between the Oak Ridge Institute 

for Nuclear Studies and the interaction 

between Oak Ridge Hospital. They were both 

run by the Atomic Energy Commission on 

separate contracts. 

 DR. HUGHES: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And the nuclear 

studies part of it was in a separate wing. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: One of the things 

you said in your report was -- 

 MR. KATZ: Jim, I'm sorry. Can I 

interrupt for a second? 

 Do we still have the folks on the 

phone? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, good. We just we 
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 13 had a message in the middle of that, which was 

odd. But thank you. Sorry, Jim. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: One of the things 

that you were reporting in your report was 

that the laundry was washed separately. It 

was kept separate. 

 DR. HUGHES: That's correct. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And that this is 

on page 14 at page 46. And that the 

housekeeping services, the maids, the 

orderlies, the janitorial staff, per contract 

were not to enter controlled areas. 

 DR. HUGHES: That is correct. That 

is stipulated in the contract. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 DR. HUGHES: Now the question I 

asked is, this ORINS Hospital only consisted 

of laboratories and patient wards. It didn't 

have the kitchen operating. So I am not sure 

where the housekeepers would go if they were 

not allowed to go into the laboratories or the 
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 14 patient areas. It is not that clear in the 

information we have. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So the Oak Ridge 

Hospital had their own housekeeping staff. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Yes. And the 

ORINS, did they have their own housekeeping 

staff or we don't know? 

 DR. HUGHES: We don't know. I 

mean, it is a much smaller entity. So from 

the information provided in these contracts, 

it seems like they relied on the hospital for 

a lot of their -- to keep it going. They used 

the hospital supply room. They used the 

kitchen. They used the pharmacy, I believe, 

the blood bank, the radiology department. Any 

of those big items that a hospital has that 

they did not. They just were a little wing on 

the side and they had laboratories, actually 

kept laboratory animals there as well. And 

they had patient wards. 
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 15 They did not have an operating room 

until 1955. So it looks like they relied on 

the Oak Ridge Hospital for staffing, other 

than nurses and physicians. But since ORINS 

had realized that the patients would excrete 

radioactive material, the laundry was 

separate. The laundry was actually sent to 

Oak Ridge National Lab for taking the washing. 

 Whereas, the Oak Ridge Hospital was a 

community hospital. They would not do these. 

I believe they had a contract with some kind 

of company that would do their laundry. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So the laundry 

was separated into a separate area. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes, because they 

realized ORINS had the contamination potential 

versus the regular hospital. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So it would be 

more logical that if the contract said that 

the housekeeping from Oak Ridge could not 

enter ORINS, ORINS most likely had their own 
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 16 housekeeping staff, but there is no 

documentation in fact that was the case. 

 DR. HUGHES: No, I have not been 

able to find anything. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That was one of 

my questions. So we really don't have an 

answer as to the contract said separation, but 

we don't know if it really occurred or not. 

 DR. HUGHES: Right. Well, there 

was a contract in place that Oak Ridge 

Hospital supplied housekeepers and maids. And 

there were some stipulations in the contract 

such as they were not to enter contaminated or 

restricted areas. 

 But if you read this one document 

that is referenced in the report, the way 

ORINS stipulated a restricted area was they 

had this meter that was calibrated in three 

colors; red, orange, and green. And only the 

red area was what they considered a restricted 

area, which was 6.25 microrem per hour. 
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 17 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And so Oak Ridge 

 Hospital was under contract to supply 

janitorial support to ORINS. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. The two 

hospitals had a contract with each other. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. So 

then they did have access to that area but 

just not the restricted areas there. 

 DR. HUGHES: I believe so. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. I 

understand now. That was what I was driving 

at. 

 DR. HUGHES: As far as we can tell 

from the information we have, yes. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: Would that be 6.25 

millirems per hour? You said micro. 

 DR. HUGHES: Milli. I think I said 

that wrong in the presentation to the Board 

because somebody pointed it out to me. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: One other 

question I had was on page 12. That was the 
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 18 report or the article that was published in 

the Journal of American Medical Association by 

Brucer. 

 DR. HUGHES: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: It says Brucer 

1951, but it was published in 1980. And I 

ordered the article, but I haven't gotten it 

yet. 

 DR. HUGHES: Okay. It was 

published in 1951, I believe. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: It says Brucer 

1951, but I looked at the bibliography. 

That's why I assumed it was '51, but the 

reference in the bibliography is Brucer 1951, 

Radioisotope Hazards, JAMA, 1980. So, I -- 

 DR. HUGHES: Okay, that must be a 

typo. I apologize. No, it is 1951. He wrote 

it in 1951. I am not even sure if he was 

around in 1980. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay, I just -- 

 MEMBER POSTON: It might have been 
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a reprint. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That is what I 

was wondering whether it was a reprint. 

 DR. HUGHES: No, it is a typo. 

 MEMBER POSTON: We did that for the 

50 year anniversary of the Health Physics, we 

did reprints of a lot of articles. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay, maybe that 

is the reason I couldn't find it. 

 DR. HUGHES: No, I apologize. I 

typed this, and it is most likely a typo. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: It is a minor 

point, but do you remember that article? 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Did they talk at 

all about radiation control measures at Oak 

Ridge Hospital at all? 

 DR. HUGHES: No, but this article, 

it talks at length about monitoring they did 

during an operation, actually several 

operations. I think I have the table in here. 
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 20 It talks about removal of a lung, an autopsy, 

a laparotomy. And if you look, this is Table 

5.5 in the report -- 

 MEMBER POSTON: What page are you 

on? 

 DR. HUGHES: I'm sorry, 20. Page 

20, the bottom table. 

 That was adapted from this 

reference. And these were all measurements 

that were done during an operational procedure 

that would have been done in an operating 

room. And we know at the time this was 

recorded and written, ORINS did not have 

operating rooms and this would have taken 

place in Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: In the hospital, 

right. 

 DR. HUGHES: I do not think they 

actually were too concerned about using the 

Oak Ridge Hospital facilities. So any kind of 

 autopsy or anything that would go on in 
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 21 pathology or in the operating room up until 

1955 would be in the Oak Ridge Hospital. I am 

fairly confident about that. 

 And as for the morgue, all of the 

deceased patients would be stored in the 

morgue. I think it might talk in this 

article, it talks about it in some reference 

that these patients would have to be held in 

the morgue for quite a while because a lot of 

them came in from fairly far away because they 

came to this place to receive cancer treatment 

and unfortunately a lot of them did pass away 

while they were there. 

 So they did use the morgue and they 

did autopsies on people because they wanted to 

investigate how the radionuclide treatments 

would work on these people. 

 So we know the morgue was in the 

Oak Ridge Hospital. So any kind of staff 

support that would be needed to maintain it, 

to clean up, that probably would have been 
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people employed by Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Did they talk 

about having more than one morgue or a 

separate area or anything like that where they 

might have done these different? 

 DR. HUGHES: No, but I found some 

documentation when they were talking about, I 

think, in the mid-'50s, the mid-1950s they 

started talking about building a new Oak Ridge 

Hospital. And it was built. It was opened in 

1960 and there was communication going on 

between the Atomic Energy Commission and ORINS 

talking about how much they relied on Oak 

Ridge Hospital for services and what kind of 

additional facilities they would need in order 

to continue operation when the Oak Ridge 

Hospital was moved, for example, adding a 

morgue. When the Oak Ridge Hospital moved to 

a different place, ORINS was expanded. It 

received an additional wing of what before was 
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 23 Oak Ridge Hospital became ORINS and the rest 

of the old hospital was torn down. A new 

hospital opened up down the street. 

 So I think after 1960 when they had 

the new Oak Ridge Hospital, they did 

eventually have a morgue facility and they 

might have had a kitchen facility because they 

could not rely on Oak Ridge Hospital being 

close by. So they expanded operations when 

they had to, but as long as they were 

connected to Oak Ridge Hospital, they relied 

on services from them. That is what I found 

out doing all this research. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: I had a question 

about the kitchen piece. Because we don't 

know whether they had a kitchen and they were 

still having some kind of interchange between 

the new hospital and perhaps this 1959 end 

date. 

 DR. HUGHES: Well 1959 is the end 

of the covered period. 
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 24 DR. MAKHIJANI: Oh, that is a DOE -

- 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: -- thing. Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: One of the things 

that got my attention on the report, which is 

very comprehensive, was on page 18, on the top 

of it. That is when people were eating in the 

cancer research hospital that their utensils, 

I guess, went back to Oak Ridge Hospital, if I 

am reading right. 

 DR. HUGHES: Right. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So I am familiar 

with cross-contamination and all the things 

which can occur in a hospital. So that 

certainly is a path, an additional path for 

cross-contamination, sometimes relatively high 

levels, depending on the situation that the 

patient is going through. So that was a good 

pick up. 

 Does anybody else have any 
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 25 questions about the report? Does anyone want 

to raise any particular issues about it? 

 The impression I got reading 

through this again and after your presentation 

 originally, through it there certainly was a 

potential for cross-contamination. Now the 

next question is I think the questions that 

were raised at the last meeting. What can we 

do to find out in fact whether any monitoring 

was taking place at Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 And so you had put together a fact 

sheet for us. And maybe I will ask you to go 

through what you have been able to do since 

our Board meeting. 

 DR. HUGHES: Since this is all 

listed here, everything we did before the 

evaluation report was completed, this is our 

standard data capture protocol. And since the 

last Board meeting, actually, all I did was 

follow up with the contact Mr. Presley had 

provided, and I was able to contact all but 
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 26 two of those. But it has not provided any 

more information than we already had. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: How many people 

were you able to -- 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Did you talk to 

Dr. -- the lady doctor? 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes, I did. I'm not 

sure, can we discuss the names? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Yes. 

 DR. HUGHES: Okay. Yes, I did. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Okay. 

 DR. HUGHES: She worked -- well, I 

am not sure. She did not start until the mid1960s at ORINS. So she was very knowledgeable 

but she didn't state that she knew a lot that 

went on in the '50s. And that is essentially 

the same response I got from a lot of people. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes, and the nurse 

I talked to, she started in the '60s, too. 

But people that I talked to said they had a 

very, very explicit group of people that 
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 27 worked with the patients, and they were all 

monitored, nothing would ever come up with any 

monitoring data. 

 I talked to people there in Oak 

Ridge that say that yes, X-10 was an early 

place where they did the monitoring data. And 

X-10 tells us that they have no data 

whatsoever. And I have heard that from three 

different people, and one of them was an 

industrial hygienist that worked with the 

badges. And he plainly stated that ORNL did 

their monitoring in the early days, but being 

able to come up with any --- and then did you 

all contact the company that did the 

monitoring? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Bob, could you 

get closer to the microphone? 

 MEMBER POSTON: She wants you to 

speak closer to the microphone. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Did you all 

contact the other company that has done the 
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monitoring for PLDs? 

 DR. HUGHES: We have not found any 

evidence that Oak Ridge Hospital had 

monitoring. Well, we found evidence. We have 

not found who did the monitoring at Oak Ridge 

Hospital. 

 We found documentation, and the 

information came from the Tennessee Department 

for Environment and Health, I believe. They 

sent copies of the radioactive materials 

license that Oak Ridge Hospital had. And in 

there, in 1957 there are some comments or some 

exchange when the AEC tells Oak Ridge Hospital 

that they need to start monitoring the people 

in the radiology department with film badges. 

 And they respond that yes, we are planning to 

do this and ORNL will provide the badges. 

 And just from the documentation 

that we have, it looks like they started this 

in 1958, but we have not found the data. 

 And even so, if we found it, it 
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 29 doesn't look like there is anything before 

1958. So it would maybe cover a year, if we 

found the data. And the major issue was the 

internal. We cannot do internal dosimetry 

dose reconstruction. And we know there was an 

internal potential because of the radioiodine, 

mainly. 

 Now we already know that ORINS 

didn't do internal monitoring in the 1950s. 

That is the reason they are -- became an SEC. 

 I mean, we can look further, but I just don't 

believe there is -- if ORINS didn't do 

internal monitoring because they didn't 

perceive there was an exposure potential, I 

think it is fairly reasonable to assume that 

Oak Ridge Hospital didn't do internal 

monitoring because they would not have felt 

that it was a need to monitor people at that 

time. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Did you get the 

same comment that I did from the paper you 
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 30 talked to? It wasn't just everybody that 

could walk into ORINS from Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 DR. HUGHES: That's correct, but 

all of the people I talked to worked there in 

the '60s when there were two separate 

facilities, and Oak Ridge Hospital was, I 

don't know, a block or two down the road. I 

haven't seen how the buildings are laid out. 

 So I am not sure. Was it different 

in the 1950s when the two facilities were 

attached or had doors? I don't know. I mean, 

I found some documentation when they talked 

about the incident that happened in 1958. And 

some discussion of this incident was oh, we 

went and closed the doors to Oak Ridge 

Hospital and sealed them so that there would 

be no foot traffic back and forth. So I'm not 

sure that that indicates that there was foot 

traffic before because they made an explicit 

point to seal the doors, to close the doors. 

Were they opened before? I am not sure. 
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 31 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Radiology 

procedures in the ORs were at Oak Ridge 

Hospital. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So there were 

would have been passages back and forth. And 

I remember how you said that door was closed 

six or seven days after the spill. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. Which is kind of 

-- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Now when you said 

that there may be a specific team, do we have 

any knowledge of who would make up that team? 

 There is nothing available I presume. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: The nurse that I 

talked to said that there was 11 RNs, is that 

 the degree nurses, 11 RNs and about four or 

five LPNs that made the team up when she 

worked there in the '60s. And those were the 

people that took care of all of the patients. 

 I mean, there wasn't anybody from Oak Ridge 
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 32 Hospital that came over there, they said, as 

far as nurses. She said that in the '60s that 

they were the ones that took care of the 

patients. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That was in the 

'60s? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And I understand 

we really haven't talked to anybody who has 

worked there in the '50s. 

 DR. HUGHES: I have talked to one 

physician who was actually a physician 

employed at Oak Ridge Hospital. He said that 

he would be asked to go over there for 

procedures. And he would go into ORINS 

actually to do procedures like an amputation 

or such things. 

 So, apparently, there was -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Was he monitored? 

 Did he say? 

 DR. HUGHES: No, he said he was not 
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 33 monitored. He didn't think he needed to be. 

It's somewhat difficult to find people that 

worked there in the '50s. 

 MS. BREYER: Hi, Ted? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

 MS. BREYER: Hi, this is Laurie 

Breyer, OCAS. I didn't mean to interrupt, but 

I received an email that people on the phone 

are having a hard time hearing. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: It is a little 

bit hard to hear. I could hear Bob when he 

got closer to the mic, but it is very 

difficult to hear Lara. 

 MR. KATZ: Thanks, Laurie. We have 

a few mics around here. We just have to work 

harder at speaking closer to the mic. Thank 

you. 

 MS. BREYER: Okay, thanks. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right, John? 

 MEMBER POSTON: I don't have any 

specific questions. 
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 34 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. 

Anybody else have any comments? 

 DR. NETON: I would just like to 

add a couple of things. I think Lara 

mentioned this, but I would just like to 

emphasize that you have a standard hospital 

here with a complete diagnostic radiology 

department as well as a nuclear medicine 

department ongoing simultaneously with the 

ORINS work. All of that exposure is also 

covered. It is not just the bleed over 

material from Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear 

Studies over in the hospital. But by the way 

the program is operated, the hospital 

exposures are also covered, and we cannot find 

any monitoring information for the standard 

hospital activities that occurred within that 

facility. So that is a layer on top of all of 

this as well. 

 And recognizing Lara mentioned that 

they had up to 25 millicuries of iodine-131 
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 35 for diagnostic purposes at any given time in 

that hospital and did, I assume, thyroid 

ablation studies or something like that. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: That is in the 

hospital? 

 DR. NETON: I believe this is part 

of the hospital. Correct? 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes, that is correct. 

 DR. NETON: So it is above and 

beyond that. So you have several things going 

on at the same time. And that kind of adds to 

the complexity or ability to do any kind of 

reasonable dose reconstruction on these 

patients. Anytime you get pockets of little 

things going on like that where nothing was 

covered, it is very difficult for us to come 

up with any sufficiently accurate dose 

estimates. I just wanted to throw that in. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Have you run 

across like any roster of people who worked at 

the two facilities? 
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 36 DR. HUGHES: There is annual 

reports available for Oak Ridge Hospital and 

ORINS. So and most of those list their staff, 

yes. 

 But I am not sure, I mean, the 

hospital reports list their physicians, their 

radiologists. They do not go down into detail 

as to clerks and accountants and nurses. But 

they do list their doctor staff not in very 

much detail. 

 I found -- one number I found 

yesterday, about 250 employees in 1948, I 

believe. It might have been reduced a little 

bit after that in years. So we are looking at 

a staff of about 250 at any given year. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That is at Oak 

Ridge Hospital? 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And do you have 

the names of those people? 

 DR. HUGHES: Not all 250, no. 
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 37 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: No? 

 DR. HUGHES: Maybe some of -- the 

director and some physicians. But no, we do 

not have the names of all of these people. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Lara, I have a 

question. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: This is Gen. You 

were talking about people who worked there, 

and I was trying to get more information from 

your report to see whether you would have 

talked to some of the people that I know are 

still alive, people we know through Health 

Physics. And I didn't try to contact anybody 

until after I got your report, and I haven't 

heard back from one of these. 

 But I am wondering if you went 

through the list of people who did work there 

and then checked to see if they are still 

alive and still in the area. So I guess my 
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 38 main concern is, has everybody been 

interviewed who could have been there in the 

'50s who is still alive? 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes, I can't tell you 

that I interviewed everybody that would have 

worked there. I mean, I have looked at the 

roster from the hospital annual reports, and I 

tried to see who I could still contact. And 

I've interviewed one physician. Some have 

declined, they didn't want to be talked to. 

 So I am not saying I have exhausted 

everything there possibly is. I tried to find 

people that might have information and that 

are still around. I mean, if you have 

suggestions who we could still talk to. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Well I have 

contacted one person. I have not heard back. 

 DR. HUGHES: Okay. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: But I suspect he 

was involved around that time. And while I 

guess I have your attention, I will ask one 
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more question. 

 In the petition, I noticed the name 

of a person who apparently worked there. The 

person's name was put in there by the claimant 

or by the claimant's spouse. And I noticed 

that person is still listed in Oak Ridge. And 

I guess I won't say the name, but I was 

wondering if that person had been interviewed. 

 DR. HUGHES: I would have to check. 

 I don't recall right now what the name is. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, it is 

something just to check. I don't think you 

want to mention the name. 

 That is all I have, but I guess my 

attention is to the point that in the '50s, 

there probably still are some people who maybe 

some of us even know personally. And I am 

just wondering if they were all interviewed. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Gen, are you 

suggesting -- let me ask you a question. Are 

you suggesting that when I looked at all of 
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 40 this information at Oak Ridge Hospital, there 

is no internal monitoring data and they did 

isotope studies there. So that in itself is 

problematic just for the hospital, let alone 

cross-contamination in relationship to the 

cancer hospital. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes, I think you 

are right. And I think it was Jim Neton who 

just spoke about the monitoring information. 

If we are really convinced, and it sounds 

pretty convincing, that over and above 

everything else, there just was not monitoring 

information. And you know, some of these 

other questions really aren't pertinent. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I mean, that is 

sort of where I am getting to. If there is no 

internal monitoring data, there might have 

been external monitoring data in relationship 

to radiographic procedures. But in 

relationship to the radioisotopes, if there is 

no monitoring data available at Oak Ridge 
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 41 Hospital for their own internal medical 

procedures, that in itself creates a problem 

for that population during that time frame. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I agree. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Let alone the 

potential for cross-contamination with the 

research hospital. I guess I am not convinced 

that interviewing additional people at this 

time is going to be necessarily that helpful, 

unless somebody has other comments on that or 

another perspective on that. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: I actually agree 

with you. You know, just listening to what 

Lara said, the most, I guess, relevant piece 

of information that is direct is this doctor 

who actually did procedures in ORINS, just on 

that cross-contamination thing. He was not 

monitored for external or internal. Right? 

 DR. HUGHES: No. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: So that, I mean the 

first monitoring would normally be external 
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 42 when you are looking at the history. People 

had a badge stuck to them if they felt there 

was some exposure potential. And now we know 

there was some. So it kind of is a very rich 

piece of evidence, even though it is a single 

piece of evidence, I think. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I agree. I would 

agree with that. Any other comments about 

this? 

 MEMBER POSTON: I have an unpopular 

comment. To me, it is unlikely that these 

exposures were large. And so I know what the 

regulations and the way this committee 

operates. If we declare it an SEC because we 

can't reconstruct doses, then the path is 

clear. 

 But I don't see that the doses are 

large and -- or likely to have led to cancer. 

 With a 40 percent chance of getting cancer 

without radiation exposure, it just doesn't 

make sense to me that we should declare this 
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 43 an SEC and go on, but I understand that is the 

decision that is facing us right now. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: In that suggestion, 

are you indicating you don't see health 

endangerment? I mean, because the rule says 

that we could identify a situation where we 

could not reconstruct the dose. If that comes 

to pass, then we have to use the second prong 

of the test that is available and say it was 

health endangered. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Well, you have 

stated it better than I, yes. I suspect the 

exposures were low. I am not denying that the 

exposures probably occurred. But you know, 30 

millicuries of iodine-131 is not a huge 

amount. 

 I think Lara reported three curies 

total for a year. So that is not a tremendous 

amount of radioactivity. Cross-contaminations 

of utensils and so forth is a minor concern. 

 So I am not questioning the fact 
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 44 that these folks were exposed to radiation. 

They were using it, both diagnostic and 

therapeutically. So there is no question they 

were using it. But I don't see a health 

endangerment at all. I just don't. These are 

standard medical procedures that were pretty 

well established. Iodine-131 goes back to the 

40s. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I think we have 

to talk about it. I will need some direction 

here on this because I have -- 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Well our evaluation 

report finds, correct me if I am not speaking 

correctly here, Lara or Jim, that we feel that 

we can't reconstruct the dose, particularly 

internal dose, for this situation for that 

time period. And so then the regulation would 

require us to evaluate whether health was 

endangered or not. And we have come to the 

position in the report that we believe health 

might have been endangered. 
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 45 So certainly the Board can take 

that into consideration and determine whether 

it is your feelings and perspective that 

health was endangered or not. If you can 

agree on the first prong of the test then you 

can challenge the second prong that we have 

positioned ourselves on. 

 MEMBER POSTON: This is the reason 

I set down at the meeting. You know, because 

what it says, what was presented to us says 

evidence indicates, review indicates that an 

undetermined amount of workers in the class 

may have received chronic internal and 

external exposures from a large variety of 

internal and externally administered 

radionuclides, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't 

say whether that is health endangerment or 

not. 

 DR. NETON: Well, you are getting 

into a conundrum in the way this decision is 

made. And that is, if you can't reconstruct a 
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 46 dose, you can't put an upper bound on what 

that dose may have been. And that by default 

is a determination of health endangerment. 

That is just the way the regulations read. 

 And I don't disagree with you that 

by and large most of these exposures may have 

been small but we have never been able to go 

there where you can do a probability of 

causation calculation to establish health 

endangerment. That has just never been part 

of the way this has been operated. 

 MEMBER POSTON: I understand what 

the rules are and what the guidance is. I am 

just giving a logical evaluation based on 52 

years experience in the field in terms of 

radiation exposures and comparing that to 

potential health endangerment. 

 DR. NETON: And you also may want 

to think about the way the probability of 

causation calculations are done in this 

program to the 99th percentile. Because those 
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 47 can get some fairly high TCE values for what a 

normal health physicist might consider a 

fairly low level exposure, particularly for 

iodine. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Jim? 

 DR. NETON: Yes. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Jim, it is hard 

to hear you. 

 DR. NETON: Okay, I'm sorry. 

Particularly for isotopes like iodine. There 

is sort of a periodic table of nuclides 

administered here. So it would be very 

difficult for us to do any type of organspecific calculation or, you know, the range 

of the antimonies, the bariums, the cesiums, 

the chromiums, the cobalt, because those all 

have different, as you know, metabolic 

behaviors. So for us to be able to say with 

confidence that we can bound the exposure to 

any of those organs under any of those 

circumstances would be very difficult. 
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 48 MEMBER POSTON: I understand. I 

have got my comment on the record. 

 DR. NETON: Okay. I understand 

what you are saying. 

 MEMBER POSTON: I am not trying to 

be legal. I am trying to be logical. 

 DR. NETON: Okay. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: At the same time, I 

would offer that we would be interested in 

what the Board's consensus opinion is about 

health endangerment because there are other 

situations where we might find that we can 

reconstruct the dose but we still don't think 

there was enough there to endanger health, per 

se. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: But how do we 

know -- 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Texas City Chemicals 

is an example. You know, there was less than 

a barrel of uranium processed there in a short 

amount of time. So was health really 
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endangered? They were exposed. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes, there are 

facilities like that. I understand that. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Go ahead. I'm sorry 

to interrupt you. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: No, no. I mean, 

I agree with that point. I am just simply 

saying that in this particular case, and this 

is where I will refer to Dr. Poston here, what 

is the likelihood that, say, one individual 

could actually pick up enough that they may 

have health endangerment? I mean, I don't 

know, and that is why I am asking you. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Well, the words 

that you use, likelihood and may are so 

uncertain that it is hard to know. But if you 

look at the total inventory of the 

radionuclides that are there. Look at the 

standard procedures that were in place in the 

'40s, late '40s and early '50s in diagnostic 

radiology, that is huge. And they will have 
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 50 60 years or more of experience with the health 

endangerment and all of the stuff that 

occurred in the '30s and '20s when folks were 

having amputations and no shielding around the 

tubes and all of those kinds of things. And 

the progress especially in Tennessee with the 

largest health physics division in the country 

existed there at Oak Ridge National Lab and 

they are monitoring what is going on, 

according to what has been said here. I think 

the health endangerment and the potential 

exposures are low -- both. I recognize they 

can't reconstruct them. 

 But it is basically, again, I don't 

want to be the old fart here, but I have been 

doing this for 52 years and so I am pretty 

familiar with what went on back in the '50s. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I would like to 

join in with what Dr. Poston is saying. I am 

older than he is so I suppose -- 

 (Laughter.) 
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 51 MEMBER POSTON: I defer to you, Dr. 

Roessler. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: And mine is not 

the point of health endangerment although I 

think that is an interesting discussion we 

need to have, but I have a hard time based on 

just logic in trying to understand what was 

going on there, knowing the people who worked 

there; [identifying information redacted], 

whom I knew, and Dr. Brucer, and I certainly 

read a lot of his documents. They were very 

knowledgeable people. [identifying 

information redacted] knew a lot about 

radiation effects. Dr. Brucer certainly 

understood how to do monitoring. He 

understood the basics of radionuclides. 

 And I guess I am still a little bit 

uncomfortable with the completeness of the 

search for monitoring data. I can't picture 

that Brucer would have worked in the 

laboratory without keeping some sort of 
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 52 records. And I guess I won't feel comfortable 

until I know that the search has been 

complete. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: I would, to just 

add one thing to your comment. And that is 

the fact that since we don't really know who 

the record keeper of these -- who has these 

files, I mean it would be great if we had 

them, but since we don't, do you know if 

either of these gentlemen kept personal 

notebooks? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: That is my 

question. I would think that Brucer, in 

particular, would have kept notebooks. And I 

am just, my question is in regard to 

interviewing people who might have known him. 

 And also perhaps there are just a 

few little leads here that I think need to be 

followed through a little thoroughly. The 

discussion about the history of Oak Ridge 

Hospital and the book that has come out and 
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 53 the comments in Lara's report says the book 

will contain some oral histories and may have 

some useful background information. I am just 

wondering, did you have a chance to look at 

that or is that something that hasn't been 

completely looked at yet? 

 DR. HUGHES: The book has not been 

published yet. It is going to be published in 

December of this year. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: So you haven't 

seen a rough draft or anything? 

 DR. HUGHES: No, I cannot get a 

rough draft. They will publish, and they will 

sell it to me if I want it, but there is no 

other way to get it. 

 I might like to add that we know 

that ORINS did external monitoring for their 

workers. We have that data. If somebody 

files a claim and that data is found and is 

retrieved by ORAU. 

 The issue with the ORINS was that 
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 54 there was no internal monitoring. And we did 

interview people during the SEC evaluation for 

ORINS, and they all stated that they did not 

do internal monitoring in the 1950s although 

they started with their internal monitoring in 

the 1960s using a whole body count. So we 

already have that information. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: It would seem 

that -- and my question again goes back to 

Marshall Brucer. At that time in the '50s, 

people knew about thyroid monitoring. And it 

seemed like others were doing thyroid 

monitoring when they were working with iodine. 

And I just find it hard to believe that they 

didn't do it there. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Gen, this is LaVon 

Rutherford. Can you guys hear me? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, very well. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay, I tried to 

come on two or three times, and for some 

reason I wasn't coming through. 
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 55 I do want to point out that three 

individuals that we did interview for the 

ORINS study were individuals that worked in 

health physics in the '50s at ORINS, and all 

three indicated that there was no internal 

monitoring until 1961, I believe. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay. Well, that 

is good to know. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: In fact, one of 

the health physicists went on to work at Oak 

Ridge National Lab and at INL, I believe. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Can any names be 

mentioned here? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. You can mention 

their names because they are employees of the 

AEC at that time. We are not indicating that 

they have a claim or that we are talking about 

their personal identifiable information. So 

they can be named. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay, I will 

mention names. I remember [identifying 
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information redacted], Roger Cloutier, -- 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Oh, okay. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: -- and a 

[identifying information redacted]. I can't 

remember [identifying information redacted]'s 

first name who worked in [identifying 

information redacted]. He worked a '50 to '54 

period, if I remember correctly. Again, I am 

qualifying this. This is off the top of my 

head. And then he worked at Oak Ridge 

National Lab and then moved on, I believe, to 

INL. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay, you just 

removed a lot of my concern, if you 

interviewed Roger Cloutier because -- 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, in fact, I am 

assuming that you all have access on your 

computers. You can go on and look in the 

Advisory Board's folder, and if it is not in 

the Oak Ridge Hospital one, I will move it 

over to it right now and you can get access to 
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that interview. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay. I looked 

there. I didn't see it. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay. 

 DR. HUGHES: I would like to add I 

actually talked to him last week. So he was 

actually interviewed twice for this. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay. Roger 

Cloutier, correct? 

 DR. HUGHES: Roger Cloutier, yes. 

Sorry. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: That may not be 

logged into the -- 

 DR. HUGHES: Not, it is not. It 

needs to be cleared, and it will eventually be 

in the Board's folder once it has gone through 

the review process. 

 MEMBER POSTON: I want to assign 

myself a task. My recollection is that the 

CDC -- not CDC -- the Old Bureau of Rad. 
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 58 Health had a set of video tapes of pioneers. 

Interviews were conducted by Laurie Taylor. 

And I believe that one of the folks that was 

interviewed on tape was Marshall Brucer. I 

have all those at home. And I would like to 

look at it and if there is one, I think that 

would be very valuable for you guys to look 

at. 

 So I will take that as a task. I 

will let you know as soon as I get home and 

get a chance to check in the library. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I would add to 

that, too, I have all of those vignettes that 

Marshall Brucer published. And I am sorry I 

didn't think to look at it before the phone 

call, but I certainly can look at those. 

 MEMBER POSTON: I am pretty sure he 

is there. They were conducted by Laurie 

Taylor, but I think Marshall was one of the 

interviewees, and it is about an hour, hour 

and an half interview. It is all on tape. 
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 59 MR. RUTHERFORD: This is LaVon 

Rutherford. I wanted to add something else 

that -- earlier during the discussion. 

 You know, one of the challenges 

that we have is that if we assume, okay, if we 

assume that health wasn't endangered and then 

if you make that assumption, we ultimately we 

have to do dose reconstruction. And in that 

process, where do we set our boundaries on a 

bounding dose for the individuals at the 

hospital with no data? 

 So, I mean, you start getting into 

the -- you know, I don't disagree with Dr. 

Poston or Dr. Roessler. But you get into this 

situation where we have to do a dose 

reconstruction for these clients and come up 

with a reasonable estimate of dose. And it 

becomes very difficult based on the 

information that we have. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I understand, 

LaVon, but I think we have to make sure. We 
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 60 have to be comfortable with feeling we have 

pulled all the threads here. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Oh, I agree. 

Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So the only way I 

know how to deal with this issue is to go back 

and look at the medical literature and the 

studies that have been published in 

relationship to human health outcomes in 

radiologists and individuals who are working 

with these materials. 

 MEMBER POSTON: There are some. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Yes, there are 

studies out there. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Well, I raised the 

issue. All I wanted to do was get it on the 

record. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: But if we go down 

that track, that would apply to almost 

everything. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Sure. 
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 61 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And the medical 

literature -- 

 DR. NETON: That health literature 

is outside of contract and the way the 

regulation is written. I mean, I think we are 

bound by what the regulation states. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Right. And that 

is what I was going to say. It doesn't allow 

for that. I mean, because if we really 

brought that information in, it would -- 

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes, I understand. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: Especially if there 

is a 99 percentile thing. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well, even beyond 

that, the regulation does not allow for a 

causation calculation to determine health 

endangerment. You just can't go there, the 

way it is currently structured. 

 Well, Gen, let me ask you then. Do 

you think then that we need to do some 

additional probing here to bring this to a 
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 62 close, or do you feel that the outcome is not 

going to change no matter what we find? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: That is a very 

leading question. I guess I would feel more 

comfortable. I would feel much more 

comfortable, first of all, to know that Roger 

Cloutier has been interviewed because he is 

one person who is still there who was probably 

involved and would be knowledgeable. 

 A few other minor things would be 

are there any leads in that Oak Ridge history 

book? Are there any leads, as Dr. Poston 

mentioned, in the Brucer material, both the 

video tape and then I offered to look through 

the vignettes to see if there is any 

indication in what they wrote that they did 

any monitoring. 

 So that is just I have a small 

reservation left yet about the completeness of 

the search for records. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: John? 
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 63 MEMBER POSTON: I'm fine. I'm 

okay. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Are you 

supportive of what Gen is saying? That is 

what I am trying -- 

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes. Well, I took 

on a task. I am going to look at the tape. 

And if it is there, I will make it available 

to these guys and that will at least fill in a 

gap that we have. And I understand the 

difference between what the law says and what 

we are doing. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: We appreciate the 

Board members' interest in taking these action 

items because I think you are the ones that 

need to be satisfied here. We certainly could 

try to follow up on these things and then 

report back, but, again, if you would dig into 

this yourselves to the degree you either gain 

satisfaction or you tell us we need to pursue 

something farther, I think that would be 
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helpful. 

 MEMBER POSTON: I could walk into 

my office at home and I have a whole row of 

them. It is either there or it is not. My 

recollection is that it is there. So I will 

know the answer by Thursday. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Bob? You are 

shaking your head no. What does that mean? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well, I am going 

to be honest with you. If we go with this, I 

am afraid that we are going to open up a can 

of worms all over the United States. You have 

got hospitals at Los Alamos, Hanford, that's 

two to mention. You know, are we going to 

open a door here that says that all these 

hospitals that took care of workers over the 

early years are going to be becoming an SEC? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, are those 

hospitals that you are referring to, Mr. 

Presley, designated as individual covered 

facilities, or are they part of the laboratory 
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 65 proper so any evaluation for a petition or any 

class that is added would include those? Do 

you see my point? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: I see your point, 

and that is something that I don't know. You 

know, as Los Alamos Hospital to me was part of 

the lab. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: I think it is 

included in the facility designation, the 

definition of covered facility. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: But see here in this 

instance, the Oak Ridge Hospital is an entity, 

a facility of its own. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: That is correct. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: So I think you need 

to understand that distinction and then your 

point may be well placed for those hospitals 

that are standing alone as a covered facility. 

 If they are within the facility proper of 

that laboratory, then they are already 
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 66 included in whatever evaluation or class that 

is being addressed. 

 DR. NETON: I have got a question 

now. Who is the actual owner of the 

hospitals? Did the Atomic Energy Commission 

actually own them? See in Los Alamos, they 

actually owned the hospitals up until 1964. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. It was owned, I 

believe, by the AEC during wartime. After the 

war it became privatized. It was run by 

several different companies under a contract 

with the AEC. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: It was run -- the 

first contractor after AEC took it over was 

the county. Anderson County actually ran the 

hospital for a couple of years, as I 

understand. And then Methodist Hospital 

picked the contract up, and they ran it for 20 

or so years. I don't know who has the 

contract now. 

 DR. NETON: But it was a DOE 
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facility or AEC facility? 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes, an AEC 

facility. A government-owned, contractoroperated situation. 

 DR. NETON: Okay. That 

distinction, I think, is important. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Are there any 

other hospitals out there like Oak Ridge 

Hospital? 

 DR. HUGHES: No. I checked our 

covered, the DOE covered facilities. The Los 

Alamos Medical Center is covered in the '50s, 

I believe. So I am not sure if it was before 

that in the '40s. I presume it did exist in 

the '40s, and I am not sure if it is covered 

with the Los Alamos National Laboratory site. 

 I am not clear on that. 

 And the Hanford Hospital is not a 

separate covered facility. I do not know if 

it is included in Hanford. I don't know that. 
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 68 MEMBER PRESLEY: You have got 

Sandia. You have got Livermore. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I don't even know 

if they have got a medical. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: They probably 

don't have one. They probably used the city 

hospital. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Bob, to my 

knowledge, Sandia just had a small clinic on 

base which is actually run by the military. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: That is probably 

true. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Bob, the point 

that you are raising is -- I don't have an 

answer. Is this going to create a precedent 

for other facilities? 

 DR. NETON: Each facility, I think, 

is judged on its own merits. I mean, if it is 

established as a covered facility under 

EEOICPA, then you would have to evaluate each 

one independently. 
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 69 The confounding issue at Oak Ridge 

Hospital is much of its affiliation with 

ORINS, where they did research with medical 

radionuclides. I suspect that a standard 

hospital that did standard diagnostic 

procedures, depending on what they did, I 

mean, we may or may not be able to reconstruct 

those. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: This is Sarah 

Cummings. Can you hear me? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, Sarah. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: It is my 

understanding that the hospital was the U.S. 

Army Hospital, and then several years later, 

it was acquired by the city of Oak Ridge. So 

it was a government hospital, initially. 

 MR. KATZ: Thanks, Sarah. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: John, in 

relationship to the cancer hospital, would you 

have the same thoughts there about health 

endangerment that you raised at Oak Ridge 
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 70 Hospital? It was granted as an SEC. So the 

question I am asking you, would you raise the 

same question about that facility as you did 

the Oak Ridge? 

 MEMBER POSTON: I haven't thought 

about it in detail, but I think I would, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So you are saying 

-- 

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MEMBER POSTON: But I understand we 

can't ride that horse too far. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: No, but I wanted 

to know if you would have distinguished 

between the two because of the procedures or 

what was going on at each of the facilities. 

It sounds like you would say then that they 

probably are equivalent in relationship to 

health endangerment or not health 

endangerment. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes, because of 
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 71 shielding and the procedures and so forth that 

are done in therapy. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well, we are 

going -- I would like to come up with some 

steps forward here, steps that we are going to 

take. Gen? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Yes? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: The impression is 

I feel that you feel that it is very important 

that we proceed. We are interviewing Roger, 

getting the Oak Ridge Hospital book, and 

looking for the tapes of, is it Marshall 

Brucer -- Marshall Brucer. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I think Roger 

Cloutier has been interviewed. So that was a 

big item on my list. I am satisfied with 

that. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So that is done. 

 Do we need to re-do that interview? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I think it would 

be helpful, and I plan to do that. 
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 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 DR. HUGHES: Excuse me -- 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: And then I think 

some minor items, but just if we are going to 

not come to a conclusion today, I would 

suggest that we do some of these further 

things. I will look at Marshall Brucer's 

actually printed they were called vignettes, 

and they were published, I think, in the '50s. 

 I will look at that. 

 I think Poston has offered to look 

at the interview tape with him. And I think 

we need to pull a few more of these threads 

just to convince ourselves that there is not 

any monitoring data. And I would think that 

somebody could look at the rough draft of that 

hospital book, even though it is not 

completely published, I would think that you 

could see what they have ready to go to the 

printer to see if there were any leads there. 

 Yes, Lara's report left it kind of 
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 73 open. It says this book will contain more 

histories and may have some useful background 

information. Well, it just seems like we need 

to follow through on that. 

 DR. HUGHES: Okay. I contacted 

them. They cannot, they say -- I can provide 

a book once it is published which will be in 

December of this year. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Well I would 

think we could wrap this up before that. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: This is Bob 

Presley. Do you want me to see if I can put 

some pressure on some people and see if I can 

get some type of a paper copy on that so we 

can look at it? 

 MR. KATZ: The Board meeting is 

October 20th in New York. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I would like to 

propose that we try to get this done before 

the next Board meeting, maybe have a -- if 

these are the steps we are going to take 
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 74 forward, that we could have a conference call 

about these results perhaps before the next 

Board meeting and not really get together as a 

group with the idea that we can bring this to 

a close by the next Board meeting, October 

20th. Is that reasonable? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: As long as we have 

it before the 15th. I am leaving on the 15th. 

 MR. KATZ: Let's pull out some 

calendars here. There is the week before the 

Board meeting has two or three work group 

meetings. Let me just see where we are with 

that. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: One on Wednesday and 

one on Thursday. Monday is a holiday. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, next week. Let's 

see. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: That is a short time, 

isn't it? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I think I can do 

what I committed to, and I think Poston said 
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 75 he could. And it would seem fairly maybe easy 

for Bob to check and see if we could get the 

information. 

 MR. KATZ: It doesn't sound like 

there is a lot to pursue. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: It is the book 

that is going to be the problem. 

 MR. KATZ: But, I mean, is the book 

going to lead you to data? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I don't know the 

answer to that. It is one of the third things 

on the list. Gen, how hard do we push on the 

Oak Ridge Hospital history book? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I have a feeling 

that it is not going to offer anything in 

addition to what LaVon and others have already 

gotten. I wish that sentence had not been in 

the report. It kind of left it open. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So you want to 

say we drop that one. The other two I think 

are doable before the next Board meeting. I 
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 76 think the book is going to create a problem 

because it is going to be confidentiality 

issues, all kinds of things that come up 

before something is out for publication. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I think Presley 

ought to explore it, and if he can't get it, I 

think we ought to drop that one. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So you still want 

to explore it. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I think if Bob 

can check on it, I think that would be fine. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MR. KATZ: So as for dates, the 

14th and the 15th we have work group meetings 

that will be all day affairs. There is the 

16th or the 13th of October that we have a 

call. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: What day is the 

16th? 

 MR. KATZ: The 16th is a Friday. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I am okay either 
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date. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: How about the 

13th, what day is that? 

 MR. KATZ: And the 13th, the 13th 

is Tuesday. It is this coming Tuesday. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Honestly, that is 

not enough time. I can circulate around and 

try to find out who I can talk to about -- 

 DR. HUGHES: I can send you the 

information for the foundation. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: I have got that. 

[identifying information redacted] is on the 

[identifying information redacted]. 

 DR. HUGHES: Okay. 

 MEMBER POSTON: So are you going to 

put pressure on [identifying information 

redacted]? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: [identifying 

information redacted] is in the [identifying 

information redacted]. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: The next Board 
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meeting is in December? 

 MR. KATZ: No, there isn't a Board 

meeting until February. So that means putting 

this off until February. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Can't we get this 

information? Certainly I can get what I am 

looking for, and Poston can. I would think we 

could get it by the 13th. 

 MR. KATZ: I don't think there is 

any problem with yours or John's 

contributions, but Bob is just saying he can't 

do anything with respect to the book in such a 

short time frame. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Well then I don't 

think that is a high one on the list. I am 

willing to go without that. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay. So should we have 

a call on the 13th? We probably don't need to 

block out a long time for it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I would like, if 

I can, to have it in the afternoon. 
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 79 MR. KATZ: Does that work for 

everybody, October 13th in the afternoon, 

meeting, say, at 1:30? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Sounds good to 

me. 

 MR. KATZ: 1:30 Eastern Time? Yes, 

Emily? 

 MS. HOWELL: Is there any way it is 

possible to do it at 2:00? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, we are just making 

this up as we go. 2:00, does that work? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: 2:00 p.m. 

 MR. KATZ: All in favor say aye. 

So 2:00 p.m. October 13th unless -- yes? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Yes. Anybody 

have a problem with 2:00 on the 13th of 

October? 

 (No response.) 

 MR. KATZ: And, Sarah, there will 

be a call-in number for that as well. 

 MS. CUMMINGS: Okay, fine. 
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 80 MR. KATZ: The same call-in number. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So my 

understanding is that John and Robert are 

going to do some follow-up work in 

relationship to Marshall Brucer and Roger. 

And we will have another Working Group phonein conference on the 13th at 2:00, this 

Tuesday of October. 

 MR. KATZ: There is one other 

action item which is, I think, some of you 

wanted to review the interview notes for Roger 

Cloutier, which -- 

 DR. HUGHES: Right. 

 MR. KATZ: -- you will make 

available. Right? 

 DR. HUGHES: I'm not sure. They 

have to be -- we have to send them through DOE 

review process. I am not sure they are going 

to be back by then. 

 MR. KATZ: We have one set of notes 

already. Right? We are just missing the 
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 81 second. Isn't that the person you interviewed 

twice? 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes, we already have 

one. He was interviewed twice, in 2006, I 

believe, and last week. And I can probably 

tell you the content of the interview. 

 He did not start work at ORINS 

until 1959. So he indicated that people 

working at ORINS wore monitoring badges and 

that, starting in the early '60s, people were 

monitored for internal radionuclides, which 

are essentially -- is consistent with the 

findings we published in the evaluation report 

for ORINS SEC 33. 

 He had some more information who 

did the badging when in the 1960s for ORINS, 

which, although interesting, is not terribly 

relevant for the Oak Ridge Hospital situation. 

 It has not provided us any leads where to 

look for any internal data that might have 

existed for Oak Ridge Hospital in the 1950s. 
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 82 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Was he asked that 

question? 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. So he was 

asked -- 

 DR. HUGHES: He stated he does not 

know a whole lot about what went on before he 

got there and not at the Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay, you have 

answered one of my questions. I thought he 

had worked there before '59. But if he wasn't 

there until '59 and if he doesn't know 

anything about the earlier days, then I don't 

think it is worth pursuing that lead any more. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. So now we 

are down to the Marshall Brucer tapes. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: And books. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And the Oak Ridge 

book, we are not going to pursue that. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: No, no, no. The 
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Brucer books. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Oh, the Brucer 

book. Okay. And John, that is your task. 

 So when we have our next Working 

Group conference call, it will be a report 

from John about what his findings are from 

that. 

 MEMBER POSTON: A question for Jim. 

 If I find this tape, should I send it to you 

guys, or should I keep it and review it myself 

and report or both? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I think you 

should send it. 

 DR. NETON: I would like to see it, 

but I would certainly appreciate your input. 

I mean, if you are reviewing it, we need both 

inputs. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Okay. I should 

know if I have it tonight because I know 

exactly where it is. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Is it a VCR tape? Is 
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 84 it something we could duplicate if you felt it 

was necessary -- 

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: -- for us to have a 

hard copy. 

 MEMBER POSTON: When I get to 

school on Thursday, I will check. Because 

what I did was I got the entire series, and 

then I had them copied and gave one set to the 

department. And so we may have two copies of 

it if it is there at all. So I will know by 

Thursday morning. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Well we would like 

your input, as Jim says. And if it's 

something that you feel we ought to have, we 

can duplicate it. We can put it on a CD. 

 MEMBER POSTON: I will let somebody 

know Thursday morning what I found out. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And you have the 

book, too, I take it? 

 MEMBER POSTON: No. 
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 85 MEMBER ROESSLER: No, I have the 

book. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: You have the 

book, Gen. So that is your task. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: That is my task. 

And as soon as I get off the phone, I will get 

a ladder and I can go get it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And I guess if 

there is something that is pertinent in there, 

that probably needs to be copied and 

distributed. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: If there is 

anything pertinent, I will either scan it and 

send it by -- I will scan it and send it by 

email to everyone on the Work Group. I will 

send it to Ted if there is anything pertinent. 

 And if I feel there isn't, I will also 

communicate with Ted, then he can decide what 

to do. 

 MR. KATZ: Right. I will 

distribute the results to the full Work Group 
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and to the staff. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Now I have one 

other question I guess I should raise. 

Physicians and radiologists and surgeons, 

employees of the hospital or contracting to 

the hospital through a professional practice 

group? Did we resolve that at the last 

meeting? I don't think we had, had we? 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: No, I think you 

raised the question. I was going to raise it 

-- forgotten. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I hadn't 

forgotten. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: I don't believe it 

was resolved, from my memory. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Professionally, 

at least, what happens the last 15, 20, 30 

years, is physicians have their own 

professional corporations, and they contract 

to different medical facilities for providing 

service. They are not really employees of the 
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 87 medical facility. They are employees of their 

own professional corporations, and that is 

where the payment goes. It doesn't go to them 

personally. It goes to their companies or the 

professional group they are associated with. 

 I don't know how Oak Ridge Hospital 

handled the situation, whether it was 

contracted out or they actually are employees 

of Oak Ridge Hospital. So I guess it's 

something we need to talk about and how we, if 

they should automatically be included or not 

included in the groups. 

 DR. NETON: I think they are 

covered under the current definition. In 

fact, as long as the Department of Labor would 

qualify them as a covered employee and they 

could demonstrate 250 days at work at Oak 

Ridge Hospital onsite, then they would be 

eligible for the SEC, if there were an SEC. 

Or conversely, if we didn't have an SEC, they 

would be a covered employee under the program. 
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 88 MR. KATZ: Can you hear that, Gen? 

 DR. NETON: Although I see what you 

are saying because it does say all employees 

who worked in any location. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: They are not 

employees. 

 DR. HUGHES: Well reports from the 

-- we have the Oak Ridge Hospital annual 

report to the AEC, and they do list their 

physicians. And there is some discussions in 

there that we hired a new radiologist. We got 

a new anesthesiologist. So there is some 

information to indicate that at least some of 

them were employees. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Hospitals will 

list the physicians who worked at the 

facility. 

 DR. HUGHES: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: It doesn't mean 

necessarily they are employees. 

 DR. HUGHES: All right. 
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 89 DR. NETON: Perhaps maybe LaVon can 

help here. LaVon, are you still on the phone? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, I am on the 

phone. 

 DR. NETON: I see our proposed 

class definition starts off as "all 

employees." And it seems to me that we have 

got another more all-encompassing definition 

that we often use that says all employees, 

contractors, blah, blah, blah. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, was this 

considered a DOE facility or not? 

 DR. NETON: I think this is a DOE 

facility, yes. 

 DR. HUGHES: Yes. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: If it is a DOE 

facility, we do have a more -- it is all DOE 

employees, contractors, subcontractors, and so 

on. 

 DR. NETON: Well that would be an 

easy change to the proposed class definition 
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 90 if that what you are saying is true, which I 

have no doubt. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So it will cover 

it. 

 DR. NETON: It will cover it. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That's right. So 

it is an easy fix. 

 So anybody want to make that 

motion? 

 DR. NETON: Do we have to make 

motions of these? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Does everybody 

agree with this? Okay, so just change the 

language and make it so it is all DOE 

employees, contractors, what is the other, 

subcontractors? 

 DR. NETON: I forget the exact 

language, but we can insert the standard 

definition for covered workers at a DOE 

facility. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So that should 
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 91 take care of that issue, and we won't have to 

talk about that again. 

 Anything else we have missed around 

the table? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Jim, I have a 

comment. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay, Gen. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I just received 

an email from Roger Cloutier with an 

attachment on it discussing the fact that he 

was interviewed. But then he goes into -- 

there are a lot of paragraphs here of 

information. I would like to have the 

opportunity to review this and report back on 

that when we have our conference on the 13th. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. What did 

you get from him? 

 MR. KATZ: An email. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: It is an email 

from Roger Cloutier, and I haven't read it. 

He has an attachment. He said he was 
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 92 contacted, was interviewed. But then he 

states in his email he is discussing some 

other things, which I haven't had a chance to 

look at yet. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. So 

did you email him directly? 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: I did. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: That is great. 

Why don't you email him and ask him what he 

knows about Oak Ridge Hospital. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: That is exactly 

what I did. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: And he has given 

me a report. So all I am saying at this point 

is I haven't looked at it, but I will report 

when we have our call next week. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Fantastic. So 

that is the third item, then. Gen, thank you. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: You're welcome. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Anything else we 
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need to discuss? 

 MR. KATZ: I don't think so. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Around the table? 

 DR. NETON: Well, I was wondering. 

 There was a second part of this issue, and 

maybe it can't be discussed until the first 

part is resolved, which is the definition of 

the class itself. We are saying anyone who 

worked at that facility, and there seemed to 

be some concern raised at the Board meeting 

that that may be too all encompassing. 

 In other words, I think Dr. 

Melius's concern at the Board meeting was does 

that include candy stripers and the lady who 

ran the gift shop, those sort of things. And 

I don't know if this Working Group was going 

to take that up or not. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well that really 

bothers me. 

 DR. NETON: That maybe cannot be 

decided until one decides whether this is an 
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 94 SEC or not, I don't know. So I just wanted to 

raise that hospital discussion point. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Would that fall 

under the 250 day rule, like for candy 

stripers? 

 DR. NETON: Anyone who would be in 

the SEC would have to demonstrate 250 days 

employment at Oak Ridge Hospital during the 

covered period. 

 MEMBER POSTON: Now they are not 

employed. They are volunteers. 

 DR. NETON: Well, they would have 

to have worked or whatever the definition. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Well when you 

think about a hospital you could say anybody 

involved in patient care. Candy stripers 

would fit into that category because they 

actually can go into patients' rooms. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: I think it is a DOL 

eligibility question. In other words, is a 

candy striper eligible to file a claim, and 
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 95 their DOL lawyers would have to weigh in on 

that eligibility issue as non-employed versus 

a volunteer. 

 DR. NETON: I just raised it 

because it was an issue, and I think it will 

be. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: I just wanted to 

comment. Well, it is not directly an SEC 

question, but Jim Neton has raised an example 

of Bethlehem Steel in that regard because you 

don't know who worked. And undoubtedly the 

number of people who worked in that uranium 

mill, and I agreed with Jim's comment, maybe 

not on the record before, but I agree with 

Jim's comment and a lot of the workers have 

made this observation themselves, at least 

some have, that the whole universe of 

Bethlehem Steel workers, which was much, much 

bigger than what we know was the universe of 

workers who worked in that mill but there's no 

way to separate them. So a secretary or a 
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 96 worker at Bethlehem Steel who never entered 

the building is also eligible for dose 

reconstruction. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: It is not an SEC. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: From an employment 

point of view, it would seem to me to be a 

completely parallel situation. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Which is a DOL 

determination. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: yes. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: DOL in the Bethlehem 

Steel incidence, decided that the whole 

facility was covered, rather than that one 

rolling mill, because they could not place 

people throughout the site. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: Exactly. 

 MR. KATZ: Well what the Board can 

do is it can make a recommendation. If it can 

carve out populations there that it believes 

have no potential for exposure, you certainly 

can specify that in your recommendation. But 
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 97 you ought to be able to identify those 

populations into three groups. 

 DR. NETON: That is the point. It 

is more than that. I mean, one could say, one 

could carve out definitions of people who were 

exposed and working with radioactive 

materials, but in principle or in practice, 

it's been our observation that it is not 

possible to adjudicate that. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Let me just 

throw out one example where you are having 

some of that problem. Los Alamos, for I don't 

know how many years, we had policies that the 

workers up in the cafeteria twice a day 

brought cigarettes and coffee down to us, into 

the hot areas. So twice a day, they were in 

the hot area. You know, and yet by definition 

of their work and their location, they worked 

in a cold area. 

 DR. NETON: Well and you will see 

this at the next Board meeting, we are 
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 98 changing our definition of the covered class 

at Hanford. We originally had it carved out 

to be the 100, 200 areas and such. And we 

have determined now that there is enough 

people that moved between all those facilities 

on a fairly routine basis that it is just not 

possible to slice the salami that thin, so to 

speak. So we are changing our definition to 

be all people who worked at the Hanford 

facility. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All people. 

 DR. NETON: All workers at the 

Hanford facility through 1972. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: That will capture, 

that new revised definition for this 8314, 

will capture those people who worked at the 

federal building in downtown Richland but 

found themselves traveling out on assignment 

into the 200, 300 areas. And we learned from 

DOE that they had no way of identifying who 

those individuals are or how many days they 
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 99 spent out there or when they went out there. 

They can't even speak in detail about their 

assignment loads. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: And I am sort of 

glad to get this advanced -- but this is 

something that also popped up, as you know, in 

our interviews. Actually some site workers 

have inter-area records, but it is a tough 

question to actually put a boundary on. Very. 

 DR. NETON: And that is analogous 

to this situation where it would be very 

difficult to say who was actually in an 

operating room or walked by a patient and 

served them lunch or breakfast, that sort of 

thing. 

 DR. MAKHIJANI: I would imagine 

that here it would be more difficult than 

Hanford, actually. There were controlled 

areas. There were log books. There were 

entry -- you know, there were more than you 

would expect there to be, they were more 
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controlled. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: I have a 

question for you. How is DOL going to handle, 

just like somebody brought up, the candy 

stripers, the Pink Ladies, or some of these 

volunteers who were not paid? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Well that goes -- 

that is a determination that DOL has to make 

on eligibility to file a claim. 

 For example, at INL, I know that 

they have turned down claims for the soda pop 

delivery guy. Because he came onsite and he 

went around to the different places on site 

where he filled up the machines, he filed a 

claim. But they said he is not an employee on 

the site. So you know, if you want a better 

explanation than I can give you, you need to 

talk to DOL. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes, because I 

would be interested. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: When and where they 
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 101 apply and how they apply the eligibility and 

determination. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: I mean, it would 

be very possible for some of these candy 

stripers or what they called Pink Ladies to 

have more than 250 days in that facility. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: And do patient care. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: And do patient 

care, but they are not employed. 

 DR. NETON: Well that is a 

question. The Department of Labor will be at 

the Board meeting. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: You can ask that 

question. I mean, interns have been another 

subject of this eligibility question. You 

know, people that may not be employed directly 

but have an internship where they are on a 

stipend or they are not even on a stipend. 

They just get the educational experience. And 

I would have to ask DOL how they would handle 

that. 
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 102 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: I would be 

interested to know. 

 MR. KATZ: My point and my comment 

for this is that Jim raised the issue that 

some members on the full Board had concerns 

about the definition. So it seems like this 

Work Group needs to come to a recommendation 

regarding that, if that is that there is no 

way to slice and dice this, that's a fine 

recommendation, whatever it might be. But it 

seems like you need to report back to the 

Board on that issue so that the Board can put 

that to bed. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. It is 

on the table. So, you know, Oak Ridge 

Hospital itself, there was no internal 

monitoring done. So if we just look at Oak 

Ridge Hospital in itself and there is no 

internal monitoring data available and not 

consider the cross-over issues, what would be 

the population? 
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 103 MEMBER POSTON: You mean in a 

number? 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Who would have 

the potential? Who would be covered as an 

employee or as a contractor or a 

subcontractor? Just looking at Oak Ridge 

alone as a stand-alone facility and not taking 

into consideration the cancer hospital. 

 So nurses, nursing assistants, 

LPNs, housekeeping, orderlies, lab techs, 

radiology technicians, OR technicians, 

maintenance, kitchen. What are we missing 

here? 

 DR. HUGHES: They had a clinical 

laboratory. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Physicians, lab 

workers, laboratory workers. We have 

maintenance. Morticians, okay. Who else 

worked in a hospital? How about 

administrator? 

 MEMBER POSTON: No, they never get 
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any. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: How about the 

administrative staff? 

 DR. NETON: You can't tell. I 

mean, people could argue that they were 

administrative but they did walk through tours 

of areas. I don't know. It would be hard to 

say. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I would say -- I 

would probably say yes. I mean, again, is it 

biologically plausible that if they get a 

cancer that it is related to this? No, it is 

not. But that is not the playing field we are 

on here. It has to do with how the law is 

written and what we have to deal with. 

 But I think we should keep it as 

people that are -- I don't think we should 

include volunteers. I think the volunteer or 

the people that come in and deliver soda pop 

or deliver food, who are coming in and out of 

the hospital making deliveries, shouldn't be 
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included. 

 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: I wouldn't 

include them either. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: So I think we 

should include these are people that are paid 

employees of the facilities. 

 DR. NETON: It would also include 

subcontractors, though. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Subcontractors. I 

would agree with that. 

 DR. NETON: And the Department of 

Labor's job would be to determine if those 

subcontractors had sufficient time in the 

class. So we may have refrigeration mechanics 

or those type of people that come in. They 

would have to demonstrate 250 days of 

occupancy or work history. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I don't 

particularly feel comfortable making a list. 

 DR. NETON: Any list you make is -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I don't feel 
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identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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 106 comfortable doing that. But just thinking 

about it, I don't see anybody I would exclude, 

offhand. I can't really pinpoint somebody. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well people who 

work in the pharmacy, you know, -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: They may be 

mixing this stuff together. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: I find that hard 

to believe -- 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: I do, too, but -- 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: -- if they let the 

pharmacy people mix up the hot isotopes in the 

same pharmacy that they are mixing the 

medicines. 

 One of the things that I am going 

to do is continue to see if I can't find 

people that are still living in Oak Ridge that 

may have worked there. I just haven't had a 

chance to -- 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Bob? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Oak Ridge Hospital Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

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 107 MEMBER ROESSLER: This is Gen. Are 

you familiar with the 43 Club in Oak Ridge? 

Apparently it still exists. People still 

meet. And they are people who came there in 

the '40s. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. It is still 

ongoing. 

 MEMBER ROESSLER: Is there any 

possibility that you could contact or that 

they would be having a meeting and you could 

see whether that is a source? 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: There are some 

people like Bill Wilcox and things like that 

that I can contact and see if I can get some 

names. 

 But I am going to be honest with 

you. I have not had a whole lot of luck 

finding many names that worked down there. 

And I have not talked to anybody at Oak Ridge 

Associated Universities to see if they have 

got any type of roster for people that might 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Oak Ridge Hospital Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

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 108 have worked there. I presume, Lara, you have 

done that to talk to them to see if they have 

got any old rosters of who worked at the ORINS 

back in the early years? 

 DR. HUGHES: We did contact them 

extensively for both evaluation of both 

facilities, looking for radiation monitoring 

records. We didn't specifically look into 

rosters, but I do believe they had quarterly 

reports. ORINS quarterly reports had rosters 

of names of people that worked there and in 

what capacity they worked there. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Bob, I just heard 

you say that you have another task that you 

assigned yourself. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well, I will look 

there. I have got a few days, not many. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay, so -- 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: But I will look 

and see if I can find some other people that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Oak Ridge Hospital Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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might have worked there. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And if we have it 

by the 13th, great. If we don't have it by 

the 13th -- 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well, then you 

don't. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: Okay, very good. 

 Going back to the definition of the 

cohort. Any other suggestions about that? 

Pharmacy? You raised a good point. 

Pharmacists normally don't leave the pharmacy. 

 Do we exclude them. Do we say everybody but 

the pharmacists? 

 DR. NETON: I don't know if there 

was a nuclear medicine pharmacy there. I mean 

they did administration of iodines and such. 

I don't know why they would be segregated. I 

don't know if there was a nuclear medicine 

pharmacist specialist. I don't know. 

 DR. HUGHES: Somebody had indicated 

to me that Abbott Labs was right across the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Oak Ridge Hospital Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

reviewed and certified by the Chair of Oak Ridge Hospital Work Group for accuracy at this time. 

The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

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street from the hospital -- 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: That is correct. 

 DR. HUGHES: -- and they got their 

radioiodine from there. But where did they 

store it once they got it to the hospital? 

 DR. NETON: Someone had to put it 

in a syringe for injection and that sort of 

thing. I don't know. I couldn't make a 

judgment as to whether people in the pharmacy 

were or were not exposed. 

 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes, Abbott's 

front door and ORINS's front door were 

probably within 50 feet. 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. Any 

other issues we have got to deal with? 

 (No response.) 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right, so the 

goal is if we can have to have a phone 

conference in a few days on the 13th. Is that 

the right date, the 13th? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, 2:00. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Oak Ridge Hospital Work 

Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally 

identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been 

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The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

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 111 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: And we will see 

if we can wrap it up at that point. If we 

can't, then we will report to the Board and 

have another meeting subsequent to that. 

 Anything else we need to cover at 

all? 

 (No response.) 

 CHAIRMAN LOCKEY: All right. I 

guess we are done. 

 (Whereupon, at 11:04 a.m., the 

foregoing proceeding was adjourned.)