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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PROCEDURES REVIEW

+ + + + +

THURSDAY,

OCTOBER 15, 2009

+ + + + +

The Subcommittee convened in the 

Zurich Room at the Cincinnati Airport Marriott 

Hotel, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron, Kentucky, 

at 9:30 a.m., Wanda Munn, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:

WANDA I. MUNN, Chair

MICHAEL H. GIBSON *

MARK GRIFFON *

PAUL L. ZIEMER
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IDENTIFIED PARTICIPANTS:

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor

BOB BARTON, SC&A

LARRY ELLIOTT, OCAS

STU HINNEFELD, OCAS

EMILY HOWELL, HHS

THEODORE KATZ, Acting Designated Federal

Official

KAREN KENT, ORAU

GEORGE KERR, ORAU

STEVE MARSCHKE, SC&A

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

ELYSE THOMAS, ORAU

*Present via telephone
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:47 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: Okay, so let's start 

4 with roll call. This is the Advisory Board on 

5 Radiation and Worker Health. It is the 

6 Subcommittee on Procedures Review. I'm Ted 

7 Katz. I'm the designated federal official for 

8 the Advisory Board.

9 Wanda Munn's the Chair, and we're 

10 going to begin, as we always do, with roll 

11 call starting with Board members in the room.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Wanda Munn, chair of 

13 the Subcommittee.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Paul Ziemer, 

15 member of the Subcommittee.

16 MR. KATZ: And then online?

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: Mark Griffon, 

18 member of the Board.

19 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, 

20 member of the Subcommittee.

21 MR. KATZ: Okay, thank you. Then 

22 in the room for the NIOSH ORAU team.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: Larry Elliott, 

2 Director of NIOSH's Office of Compensation 

3 Analysis and Support.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Stu Hinnefeld, 

5 technical program manager, same office.

6 MR. KATZ: And on the line, NIOSH 

7 ORAU team.

8 MS. THOMAS: Elyse Thomas, ORAU 

9 team.

10 MS. KENT: Karen Kent, ORAU team. 

11 I'm filling in for Scott Siebert today.

12 MR. KATZ: Great. Welcome.

13 MS. KENT: Thanks.

14 MR. KATZ: Okay, then SC&A in the 

15 room.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Steve Marschke.

17 MR. KATZ: And we expect John 

18 Mauro?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: We expect John 

20 Mauro.

21 MR. KATZ: Okay, John Mauro will 

22 be joining us.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: He's in the hotel.

2 MR. KATZ: Right, and on the line 

3 for SC&A.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I think most of the 

5 SC&A people were expecting a 10:00 start. 

6 They might be calling in at 10:00.

7 CHAIR MUNN: That's fine.

8 MR. KATZ: Okay, and then any 

9 members of -- well, first, other federal 

10 employees or contractors, beginning in the 

11 room.

12 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS.

13 MR. KATZ: And on the line?

14 MS. ADAMS: Nancy Adams, NIOSH 

15 contractor.

16 MR. KATZ: Okay. Any members of 

17 the public on the phone who would like to 

18 self-identify?

19 All right. Wanda? Thank you.

20 CHAIR MUNN: All right. First of 

21 all, if there was any confusion about our 

22 start time, my apologies about that. We have 
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1 an internal argument ongoing with respect to 

2 when we should start this, my position being 

3 that we should start at 10:00, and I think 

4 many of our contractor people have accepted 

5 that as being the starting gate, but we have a 

6 federal official who insists that 9:30 is the 

7 appropriate time.

8 So in this particular case where 

9 we had both of our Board members -- two of our 

10 Board members who were unable to attend in 

11 person and the other two were already here, 

12 we've opted to start just a little bit before 

13 the Chair's preferred start time. But --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Early from her 

15 point of view.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, early from my 

17 point of view. Thank you for your patience 

18 with us on that point. We'll try to be --

19 we'll try to reach some consensus before we 

20 leave Cincinnati this time and have a more 

21 firm time for you next meeting.

22 I had sent requests for anyone who 
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1 had comments or corrections with respect to 

2 our proposed agenda, which is simply to follow 

3 the action item draft that I sent to you 

4 earlier. The only person from whom I heard 

5 was our Board member Mark Griffon.

6 He has several questions with 

7 respect to some of the items there, but rather 

8 than cover those questions separately, if it's 

9 all right with you, Mark, we'll just go ahead 

10 and take those questions up as we reach those 

11 specific items. Is that okay with you?

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: That's fine, 

13 Wanda.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Very good.

15 MEMBER GRIFFON: Thank you.

16 CHAIR MUNN: I have no real 

17 response for you until we address them. The 

18 first item that we had on our action list was 

19 mine. It was to revise the transfer document 

20 that we were going to use to change procedures 

21 from this Subcommittee into the hands of other 

22 working groups or subcommittees.
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1 That draft has been submitted, and 

2 I have received no comment with respect to its 

3 markup. We submitted it as a draft transfer 

4 from this Subcommittee to the Rocky Flats Work 

5 Group.

6 I believe you all have copies of 

7 it electronically. Are there any comments or 

8 questions with respect to that? Do you feel 

9 that it needs any additional work before we 

10 actually send that letter and subsequently one 

11 or two others, which we agree should be 

12 transferred earlier? Any comments or 

13 questions with that?

14 If not, I take it by silence that 

15 we have consensus on the wording of that 

16 template. I will see to it that it will be my 

17 action item to get the final copy of this 

18 particular transfer underway, and I will 

19 attempt to see that the other transfers that 

20 we have made which have not been accomplished 

21 on record are done also.

22 I also -- I believe you also have 
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1 copies of the PDF files, which Steve Marschke 

2 has put together as additional information 

3 which need to accompany those transferred 

4 files. Have you taken a look at those as 

5 well? Is there any problem with the format or 

6 the information contained on those files?

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: I just have one 

8 question on those. Those are PDF files --

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- and typically a 

11 person cannot enter the information on those 

12 files unless they have -- can you do it with a 

13 special program? You've asked them to 

14 complete those and then return them.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is there an 

17 interactive kind of file that they can use to 

18 do this or what -- how do they actually 

19 physically do that?

20 CHAIR MUNN: It was my 

21 understanding -- I think we had a very brief 

22 conversation about this at our last meeting, 
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1 and it was my understanding that it was going 

2 to be possible for them to establish the same 

3 type of working file for their work group as 

4 we use on this database so that they could 

5 essentially continue to do that. Now, if my 

6 understanding --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: This would be a 

8 template of some sort that we would provide or 

9 how would they --

10 CHAIR MUNN: No, I don't believe 

11 we would provide it. I think the IT folks at 

12 CITGO have to provide that. Does anyone have 

13 any specific information with regard to how 

14 that is going to work mechanically?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the database 

16 application we're working on, which is a SQL, 

17 not an Access database, is -- we're designing 

18 to cover all the work groups and 

19 subcommittees, so we're trying to do that.

20 So if that -- in that instance, 

21 the data could be read -- it could be -- it 

22 would be a simple matter of a pointer or 
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1 something, that the data would then go up on -

2 - in Rocky Flats, and all the data would be 

3 there, it would be essentially the same 

4 appearance of the data.

5 So that is what would happen from 

6 a database standpoint. I don't have a date 

7 for when that's going to be ready. So --

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: I guess when that 

9 occurs we may have to modify the cover letter 

10 to instruct them on this or we would add 

11 something to this, maybe an addendum to these 

12 sheets. I mean, these are static sheets.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Here's the 

15 information, then that's probably good to have 

16 that and then maybe an instruction to tell 

17 them how to actually implement entering their 

18 actions into the system.

19 CHAIR MUNN: It would appear to be 

20 more efficient to simply instruct the chair of 

21 each subcommittee or working group as to how 

22 this process will work. We should be able to 
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1 do that electronically and simultaneously 

2 instruct that until that is up and operating.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: I guess while 

4 that's operating, for example, if you 

5 transferred this to Mark, he gets this. If 

6 they take an action, I guess he would just 

7 have to download this mechanically. What 

8 would he do? I guess just provide the 

9 information and we would enter it for now, 

10 right? That's how I would --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I would just 

12 provide the next -- whatever the entries are 

13 in a Word file and then at the time they were 

14 completed with it provide it back to --

15 because this is still the database we're using 

16 -- provide it back to this group and somebody 

17 with write privileges.

18 I can now write to the database 

19 since it's our site. Steve or I could put it 

20 into the findings. I mean, we can work that, 

21 if this occurs before the new database is 

22 done.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Probably I should 

2 work with the two of you to put together 

3 generic instructions to send to the chairs of 

4 the work groups so that they will be aware.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and I --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: There's a number 

8 of questions I would have to ask our IT people

9 about the utility of -- is there a way that 

10 we can just take this data and this format and 

11 put it on a file, probably a Word file, that 

12 they can write to so they can finish it out in 

13 the same type of template and send it back, at 

14 which time we would take the new entries and 

15 put them back in the database.

16 Is there an easy way to do that or 

17 should we just not even -- just leave this PDF 

18 page static and just any entries after that 

19 send over to us in a Word -- similar-type 

20 format but in a Word file and which we could 

21 then copy into the Access database.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, if that's 
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1 the case, then in my mind it raises an 

2 additional question on your letter, which I 

3 can now raise, and that is, in the letter we 

4 have a statement that simply says for them to 

5 complete the form and return it with an 

6 electronic signature, but it's not obvious.

7 I think at one point the form was 

8 complete. For example, in this sample -- or 

9 it's not a sample, the actual form we send on 

10 Rocky to Mark, it has places in it for the 

11 NIOSH follow-up actions.

12 Now when that's filled in, is the 

13 form complete or it could be that after the 

14 NIOSH follow-up action there's something else 

15 that occurs. That's what I'm not clear on.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Well, in the form 

17 that I anticipated the recipient would sign 

18 that simply --

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, it's an 

20 electronic signature. They send the 

21 information back.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is, but 
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1 that's simply their discussion with their work 

2 group to establish. We had previously 

3 discussed the fact that the first thing we 

4 have to do is get buy-in from the group to 

5 which the file is being transferred that they 

6 will accept it.

7 So that was the immediate response 

8 that we anticipated. First, we must have the 

9 agreement the work group or subcommittee 

10 accepts that transfer. Then after that, 

11 actions that transpire need to be recorded in 

12 such a way that ultimately, when they're done 

13 with it, we can incorporate it into the 

14 permanent archive, which we are maintaining.

15 But our -- if I could request Stu 

16 and/or Steve, I don't know which of you or 

17 both, could find -- could clarify with the IT 

18 folks exactly what is the most expedient and 

19 simplest way to do this.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: I will do that.

21 CHAIR MUNN: If Stu would do that 

22 -- if you'd take that as an action item, then 
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1 it seems to me rather pointless for us to 

2 discuss how we're going to do it if we don't 

3 know what's possible --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

5 CHAIR MUNN: -- electronically.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, right now 

7 Mark gets two things, right, the cover letter 

8 and the form which shows what we've done so 

9 far.

10 CHAIR MUNN: The PDF file that 

11 shows what's been done so far.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: What are we asking 

13 him to return?

14 CHAIR MUNN: We are asking him to 

15 return -- we don't know what to ask him to 

16 return until we have determined from the IT 

17 folks what format -- whether they can use this 

18 case-tracking format easily.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, right now it 

20 says to return the completed form by email. 

21 My question is, is that the snapshot picture 

22 of the Rocky Flats?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: No. That's the 

2 Record of Transfer sheet --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, the one 

4 that's attached to the letter? That's the one 

5 --

6 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- you want 

8 returned?

9 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Just that they've 

11 accepted it?

12 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: So we're not 

14 asking for the other thing back?

15 CHAIR MUNN: What we have -- no. 

16 What we have asked in the previous paragraph 

17 is recording on the finding sheet any action 

18 or change in status resulting from the work 

19 group efforts.

20 It was my understanding from the 

21 discussion that we had had earlier that there 

22 was a form of PDF file that we could send to 
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1 them which would allow them to enter 

2 information on it. That's what I'm asking Stu 

3 to check --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Until they can 

5 actually do that, we may have to have an 

6 interim process to --

7 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- get this --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I intend to just 

10 talk to our IT folks and see what's -- what 

11 looks easier. To me, what looks easy is for 

12 the receiving work group or subcommittee to 

13 prepare a Word file in the same sort of 

14 structure that this database appears in.

15 There's a finding, there's a 

16 response, there's initial discussion. With 

17 the dates in it, there may be a work group or 

18 subcommittee action, in that format and this 

19 in sequence in a Word file and return it to 

20 us, and then Steve or I clip those off and put 

21 them into the database when it's done. That 

22 looks to me the easiest to me today.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Kind of just like 

2 the way we handle now with --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what we do 

4 now.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: -- NIOSH responses 

6 and the SC&A responses --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: We send everything 

8 in Word now. We clip it off and we put it in 

9 the database.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

11 MR. KATZ: So you're just saying 

12 that that would occur in the interim until the 

13 SQL thing is working correctly?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Yes. Once 

15 SQL is working, we will have a way to just 

16 move it.

17 MR. KATZ: My guess is that these 

18 other work groups aren't going to actually 

19 have moved forward and have anything to report 

20 until you already have that SQL thing.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I haven't talked 

22 to Stacy --
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1 MR. KATZ: So I don't know that 

2 you'll even need an interim vehicle for that, 

3 just the acknowledgment that they've accepted 

4 the assignment, which is --

5 CHAIR MUNN: That's what we need.

6 MR. KATZ: -- an email with it. 

7 Right.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 MR. KATZ: I think that's probably 

10 all that's needed.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: But we may have to 

12 -- you may have to start telling them what to 

13 do with the other document.

14 DR. MAURO: Just to catch up 

15 because I came in a little late though, so we 

16 are -- this group will be the archive, though, 

17 of --

18 CHAIR MUNN: That's correct.

19 DR. MAURO: -- of the closure of 

20 their review of the procedure that started 

21 with us. Transferred it to them. They do 

22 their thing, close it out, get happy with it, 
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1 but it will come back and be part of our 

2 archives? Just wanted to make sure, as 

3 opposed to just walking away, it's theirs now, 

4 not ours.

5 CHAIR MUNN: No.

6 DR. MAURO: Okay, just wanted to 

7 make sure.

8 CHAIR MUNN: When they're done, 

9 their closure comes back to us to be recorded.

10 DR. MAURO: So we're the archive -

11 -

12 CHAIR MUNN: This is the archive.

13 DR. MAURO: Okay.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, once we 

16 have a consolidated database, that can all be 

17 taken care of on the database.

18 DR. MAURO: No, that's fine. 

19 There was some question whether or not the 

20 other work groups dealing with their 

21 individual Rocky Flats, whatever, would have 

22 their own archive of some form at some time in 
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1 the future, but that doesn't sound to be the 

2 case

3 CHAIR MUNN: They might have a 

4 working file. They might have a tracking 

5 system of their own, but it would either link 

6 directly to ours or it all comes back to us in 

7 the end for the archive.

8 Mike or Mark, do either of you 

9 have any question or problem with that?

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: No, that made 

11 sense, Wanda.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

13 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MEMBER GIBSON: I'm good with 

15 that.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Very good. 

17 Thank you. The next item we have on our 

18 action item list is providing a draft report 

19 to the Secretary for all Subcommittee members' 

20 review.

21 I've done that. You have the copy 

22 of that first draft of my suggestion. As you 
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1 know, I would prefer to make these reports as 

2 brief and as informative as necessary, but not 

3 additional detail.

4 When we submitted the first one, 

5 we included in our information to the 

6 Secretary a full-scale report from SC&A about 

7 almost everything that we had done during that 

8 time, and my instinct was that we no longer 

9 need that kind of information being provided 

10 with each of these reports.

11 If I am incorrect about that, then 

12 here's your opportunity to tell me about it 

13 and if the draft of the second report to the 

14 Secretary does not appear to cover adequately 

15 what you feel should be said, please do let me 

16 know. I'm open now for any suggestions, 

17 additions, deletions, any comments.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have a number of 

19 items. I thought I'd go through them.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Go right ahead, Paul. 

21 Yes, please.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: The first one is -
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1 - I'm going to start with one that's more 

2 general and then I have some specific ones, 

3 but in the fourth paragraph of the first page, 

4 at least it's the first page the way I print 

5 it out, there's a whole lot of detail about 

6 this database, and in my mind it doesn't 

7 matter for the Secretary to know that.

8 All we need to tell the Secretary, 

9 let me make it simple, is that we're reviewing 

10 the procedures and we have a certain kind of 

11 findings. I can't believe that at the 

12 secretarial level they care very much how 

13 we're tracking.

14 But I may be wrong. I mean, we 

15 spent a lot of time on this database, and we 

16 like to let it be known, but -- and maybe Ted 

17 and Emily and Larry can help us out on here, 

18 but do we need that kind of -- there's a lot 

19 of detail on how we're tracking this stuff.

20 In my mind, at the secretarial 

21 level, that doesn't matter. I mean, they 

22 expect that we're keeping records of some 
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1 sort. Do they care what the database looks 

2 like?

3 So that's a comment, and it starts 

4 with the addition of the second set of 

5 procedures of printed matrix became too 

6 intricate and bulky and then the goal of 

7 tracking the history and the resolution and 

8 there's a lot of sentences from there to the 

9 end of that paragraph about the database.

10 CHAIR MUNN: There are.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm not 

12 criticizing your description. I think it's a 

13 good description, but I'm not sure the 

14 Secretary needs to know it. That's my point.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I'm delighted 

16 to hear your suggestion that we reduce the 

17 number of words in the letter --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: It would sharpen 

19 this document, but I --

20 CHAIR MUNN: -- but by the same 

21 token --

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- I just thought 
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1 maybe we could discuss that or get some -- if 

2 I'm the only one that feels that way, I -- you 

3 might convince me otherwise.

4 CHAIR MUNN: No, I'd very much 

5 like to hear a discussion about that because 

6 the reason I put it in, very frankly, was to 

7 make it clear to the Secretary that there's 

8 been a great deal of effort expended on this, 

9 and I expended a great deal of words in my 

10 attempt to do that. If that seems to be 

11 inappropriate, then I certainly have no 

12 objection to shortening that paragraph.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I thought 

14 maybe those within the agency --

15 MR. KATZ: I'll speak to that. I 

16 mean, I agree totally. I think at the 

17 secretarial level, process is very 

18 uninteresting except when you're -- when 

19 you're addressing something of due process or 

20 whatever, but in general, process information 

21 is of no interest. They really would be 

22 interested in the bottom line --
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: They're outcome2 focused.

3 MR. KATZ: -- the substantive. 

4 What are we -- what is the Board finding and -

5 -

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Why are we doing 

7 it and what has been found.

8 MR. KATZ: Right. Enough context 

9 to understand -- yes, exactly, what the task 

10 was and what the outcome was.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Paul, do you have 

12 specific suggestions or would you like --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, no. I do 

14 have some other specific ones --

15 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- that I'll 

17 mention. Several of them were within that 

18 paragraph, so they would disappear.

19 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Backing up to the 

21 third paragraph, a complete group of 

22 procedures scrutinized, and then you have some 
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1 numbers to fill in, including more than one 

2 revision of a few procedures.

3 That's -- that wording sounds 

4 loose enough to me that I would like to see it 

5 be more crisp. For example, maybe something 

6 like one revision of certain -- more than one 

7 revision of certain procedures or something 

8 like that.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Well, we can actually 

10 count the number of procedures. There are 

11 only about eight or nine of them through which 

12 this occurs. So -- through which that 

13 applies, and most --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, and again, 

15 I'm not sure that number is so critical other 

16 than to point out that some of the procedures 

17 have been or certain procedures have been 

18 revised, so just a crisper wording. May need 

19 the numbers. Okay, that was one issue.

20 We talked about the impact on 

21 Probability of Causation, and I'm -- well, 

22 first of all, I think those have to be 
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1 capitalized if we use it, but I'm wondering if 

2 we introduce that into the letter or if we 

3 need to contextualize that or if we even bring 

4 that up.

5 Again, a little advice here, we 

6 are -- I think the focus has to be we're 

7 reviewing the procedures. What are we finding 

8 and how does it impact and what does it say 

9 about the scientific quality of the work being 

10 done. Those are bottom-line things.

11 Do we have to introduce other 

12 concepts like do we talk about things like 

13 Probability of Causation or any of the other 

14 technical terms per se at the secretarial 

15 level. That's the question I have.

16 CHAIR MUNN: I have a little 

17 concern with even introducing --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: If it's an impact 

19 on the compensation decision, a term like 

20 that, I think, rather than on PoC, maybe for 

21 the secretary level -- I'm sort of looking to 

22 the others for advice on that.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Very frankly, from my 

2 perspective, anything that avoids the term 

3 Probability of Causation is beneficial. 

4 Probability of Causation for anyone who knows 

5 anything about mathematics and statistics is 

6 an impossibility anyway.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, suppose we 

8 talk about the impact on compensation 

9 decisions.

10 CHAIR MUNN: The impact on 

11 compensation decisions sounds entirely --

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think at the 

13 secretarial level that's an important issue. 

14 I mean, it's based on this. Do we need to 

15 introduce the term?

16 CHAIR MUNN: I don't see any 

17 reason why we have to, and your suggestion is 

18 certainly well received here. If you have a 

19 wording that you'd like --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I would say 

21 minor issues with no measurable impact on 

22 compensation decisions, you manage the 
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1 scientific debate, which may have complex-wide 

2 implications.

3 CHAIR MUNN: On compensation --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, I think we 

5 may need another round. That whole thing on 

6 calculations of Probability of Causation --

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- I would just 

9 say on compensation decisions, for example.

10 CHAIR MUNN: That's certainly 

11 acceptable to me. Do any of the other Board 

12 members have problems with making that change?

13 MEMBER GIBSON: That's fine with 

14 me.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Compensation 

16 decisions to matters of scientific --

17 MR. KATZ: That was Mike.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes? Any problems 

19 with that, Mark?

20 MEMBER GRIFFON: No, Wanda. I 

21 think I'm okay with Paul's comments, and 

22 actually, I also agree with the first point 
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1 about the database.

2 I do have -- I mean, the only 

3 other question I had, and Paul, you might've 

4 hit on this a little bit, I was dealing with 

5 some noise outside my house, the question I 

6 had was do we get to any of the bottom-line 

7 questions in this letter?

8 Is this letter maybe premature? I 

9 mean, are we being asked to -- I forget the 

10 time line. I know we did bring this up at the 

11 last meeting, but are we at a point where we 

12 can say anything about bottom-line questions?

13 Does the interim letter -- it 

14 seems like an update sort of, but it would 

15 even -- necessary at this point, I guess, 

16 would be my -- just a step back from the whole 

17 thing.

18 CHAIR MUNN: It was my 

19 understanding that we discussed this at 

20 considerable length earlier and came to the 

21 conclusion that it was wise to provide 

22 something on the order of an annual status to 
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1 the Secretary's office just to assure that 

2 they were aware that the Subcommittee was 

3 continuing to function and that we were moving 

4 forward.

5 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. I do 

6 vaguely remember that, Wanda, so I don't -- so 

7 with that in mind, I guess, I would say, yes, 

8 keep some of the specifics about the database 

9 out and keep it short and sweet.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: We have, Mark, we 

11 have two subcommittees, the Dose 

12 Reconstruction and this one. Of course, Dose 

13 Reconstruction we have provided regular 

14 reports, plus the summary report, and I think 

15 we thought it was appropriate since this is at 

16 the subcommittee level to at least report on 

17 progress.

18 I'm not sure how much bottom line 

19 we can do here. I think indicating that some 

20 procedures have been revised is a sort of 

21 bottom-line matter. In other words, the 

22 process has --
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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: Has affected the 

2 program, yes.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- spurred some 

4 revision, number one, and beyond that, we 

5 probably can only indicate that this is an 

6 ongoing process that we're continuing to 

7 review. I'm not sure we're ready for sort of 

8 the ultimate statement.

9 DR. MAURO: I don't have that in 

10 front of me. I neglected to print it out, but 

11 I have a concept -- oh, thank you very much. 

12 The fact that we are at a point where we could 

13 know the number of procedures and they're 

14 almost all of them -- I mean, we're at a point 

15 now where there aren't that many more 

16 technical procedures left to review, that's 

17 one of them.

18 We have an almost -- I would --

19 certainly, correct me if I'm wrong, but every 

20 so often we check to see are there any 

21 additional procedures out there that are --

22 where it might be helpful for SC&A to review.
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1 I do that, and it turns out that, 

2 and you may agree with this, that we've really 

3 reviewed the lion's share --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

5 DR. MAURO: -- of the procedures.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

7 DR. MAURO: Second, we have 

8 actually achieved closure. We found there are 

9 -- we have numbers here because part of our 

10 progress report identified, where are we. 

11 What percentage of -- because I have a budget 

12 I'm tracking and how much of the budget could 

13 we spend and how much of our work will be 

14 completed.

15 Well, according to my numbers, 

16 we've completed 70 percent of our work. In 

17 other words, we have either closed an issue or 

18 appropriately transferred it or it's in 

19 abeyance and an abeyance is important.

20 Now, I don't know, this may be in 

21 here already, but the idea -- I don't know if 

22 you want to go that far.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, no, we're not 

2 going to talk about --

3 DR. MAURO: No, no. I understand. 

4 I understand what you're saying, but in the 

5 end, as far as I'm concerned, in-abeyances 

6 mean we have reached a point where you think 

7 we have agreed on the changes that are needed 

8 to the procedure, so the way I see it is there 

9 were 108 or whatever number of procedures are 

10 that we've reviewed to date.

11 Out of those, we deliberated on a 

12 certain number of them, I think on all of them 

13 we have some deliberation.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm not even sure.

15 DR. MAURO: The ones that are open 

16 -- oh, there they are, right there. Nineteen 

17 percent. So, in other words, 80 percent we've 

18 deliberated on. That's what it really comes 

19 down to. We've had some deliberation, and out 

20 of that, out of the total, 70 percent we have 

21 agreed to -- that we either found the 

22 procedure adequate as it is or we found it 
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1 necessary to make some changes to improve the 

2 quality or clarity of the procedure. Now, 

3 this is a very simple statement.

4 CHAIR MUNN: I tried to cover that 

5 --

6 DR. MAURO: If that's in here, I -

7 - I didn't read it, but I would -- I think 

8 that kind of very general oversight would be 

9 very effective.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Third paragraph.

11 DR. MAURO: Third paragraph?

12 CHAIR MUNN: Third paragraph. We 

13 are going to accompany this with the kind of 

14 tracking system summary that we have on the 

15 screen right now, and with a couple of the 

16 graphs that Steve has put together.

17 DR. MAURO: Oh, do you?

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

19 DR. MAURO: Okay.

20 MR. KATZ: You probably -- it's 

21 simple enough that you probably can cover it 

22 in narrative with a lot of -- but I don't know 
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1 that you need that much data to support these 

2 simple statements.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: We might add a 

4 sentence or two about -- you talked about the 

5 number of findings closed, but maybe the issue 

6 that 80 percent or something have already been 

7 --

8 DR. MAURO: Deliberated.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- deliberated on 

10 or --

11 DR. MAURO: We have had 

12 deliberations on --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Whatever that 

14 number is.

15 DR. MAURO: -- 80 percent of --

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is it 79 percent? 

17 Or 81 percent?

18 DR. MAURO: Eighty-one percent.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Well, at the end of 

21 our -- at the close of our business today, 

22 those numbers may change, but --
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1 MR. KATZ: Right.

2 DR. MAURO: But it's the idea. 

3 You know, what do we want to communicate? 

4 Whatever those numbers turn out to be by the 

5 end of today.

6 MR. KATZ: I mean, moreover, you 

7 can also say 50 percent are closed, pretty 

8 much --

9 CHAIR MUNN: Well, that's --

10 MR. KATZ: -- and another 

11 15 percent, so --

12 CHAIR MUNN: -- I said as much.

13 MR. KATZ: So for that percentage, 

14 I mean, you've either closed them or you've 

15 agreed on the path forward.

16 CHAIR MUNN: We've said 49 percent 

17 have been resolved and closed. We get a 

18 number of -- percentage of deliberations. 

19 I'll add that to the third paragraph.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have another 

21 comment when you get a chance.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. Yes, go ahead.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: In the second 

2 paragraph, as detailed in our initial report 

3 dated July 18, 2008 to assure the completeness 

4 and so on, it sounds like the initial report 

5 was written to ensure the completeness. You 

6 know what I'm saying?

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: So my suggestion 

9 was -- is to insert in front of the to ensure 

10 completeness, follow it -- put a comment after 

11 2008, as detailed in our initial report dated 

12 July 18, 2008, as part of our responsibility 

13 to assure the completeness and the scientific 

14 validity, dadadada, the Board has selected 

15 groups of procedures and documents for review.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Sounds good to me. 

17 Any objection to that addition?

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: The other reason 

19 for wording it that way is that this is not 

20 the only activity of the Board that's involved 

21 in assuring scientific validity. It's part of 

22 the responsibility of the Board. We have 
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1 other responsibilities, such as the Dose 

2 Reconstruction and all that stuff.

3 So that was my suggestion for that 

4 paragraph.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Very good.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think that -- I 

7 think those are the only ones I had.

8 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: I guess I'd like 

10 to suggest that we make modifications and then 

11 have another look at it.

12 CHAIR MUNN: I would hope that, 

13 perhaps over the lunch hour, you and I could 

14 take a look at this and get the proposed new 

15 electronic version of it out to Mike and Mark 

16 so that hopefully at the end of this meeting 

17 we can bring something to the Board.

18 If that's amenable with all 

19 parties, we'll undertake to do that. All 

20 right with the folks on the phone?

21 MEMBER GRIFFON: Sounds good, 

22 Wanda.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

2 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, sounds good.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. That's 

4 what we'll try to do. Now the next item on 

5 our agenda has to do with the technical issues 

6 outstanding on OTIB-0029. John, that's an 

7 SC&A action.

8 DR. MAURO: That was the one that 

9 went over to --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: That went to Joyce.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Waiting for Joyce and 

12 one of Mark's questions was -- did we get 

13 responses from her?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: I have to 

15 apologize. This is not in the database yet, 

16 and I haven't really emailed it to the members 

17 of the working group because I wanted to -- or 

18 the Subcommittee I should say, I wanted to go 

19 through and edit it, but -- make sure it was -

20 - but I'll give you the -- these are the raw 

21 input we got back from Joyce.

22 So if we want to walk through the 
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1 -- what's on the screen --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Is the projector 

3 out of focus or are my eyes out of focus? 

4 Well, I'm not - my eyes are fuzzy so I'm not -

5 -

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: This is not 

7 something you can email because --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: It's a file I can -

9 - if I knew how to email it, Mark. I'm using 

10 a new computer -- the new computer that they 

11 gave us, and I'm very much a novice on its 

12 use, so --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is the document 

14 saved under a document file?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: The document is --

16 it's saved as a .doc file on my flash drive. 

17 Now --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: You can go to your 

19 CDC email -- does he have a --

20 MR. KATZ: No. You're going to 

21 have to save it onto your hard drive first 

22 from your flash drive.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: It is on its way, 

2 Mark.

3 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. Thanks. 

4 I'll look -- keep an eye out for it.

5 CHAIR MUNN: And you, too, Mike.

6 MR. KATZ: Mike mentioned that 

7 somehow he was locked out.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Well, yes, but I 

9 think they sent --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: We emailed it to 

11 his non-CDC --

12 MR. KATZ: Okay, Mike, did you 

13 hear that? This was emailed to your home 

14 email address.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Gmail account.

16 MEMBER GIBSON: Okay.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically, what it 

18 is is --

19 MR. KATZ: So are we ready to --

20 we were on a technical break, but are we back 

21 --

22 CHAIR MUNN: I believe we're back 
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1 --

2 MR. KATZ: -- in order? Okay.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. We're taking a 

4 look at OTIB-0029-01 response from -- Steve.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Shown in red 

6 is Joyce's responses to the NIOSH's responses 

7 to the SC&A finding. Basically, the finding 

8 is, as you see, instead of being complete in 

9 terms of required data, the document 

10 references and uses data and so on, and it 

11 needs to be known and understand -- the 

12 procedures described --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm not seeing 

14 what you're reading.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, it's way up 

16 here at the top. This is the finding.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, you can --

19 again, I'm not sure if I'm making it better or 

20 -- I can't make it bigger.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Not bigger, 

22 sharper.
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1 MR. KATZ: That's as sharp as it 

2 can be.

3 CHAIR MUNN: But this hasn't been 

4 added to the database yet, right?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: No, it has not.

6 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: No, it has not. 

8 The issue that was being addressed was instead 

9 of being complete in terms of required data, 

10 the document references and uses data from 

11 documents that need to be known or understand 

12 the procedures described.

13 NIOSH response to that was, SC&A's 

14 comments on the first couple statements 

15 numbered one above appear to refer to HHS SEC 

16 designation letter. I'm not sure what that --

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: Steve? I have 

18 your file now, but can you tell me where 

19 you're at and what --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm on Page 3.

21 MEMBER GRIFFON: Thank you.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: OTIB-0029-01.
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1 MEMBER GIBSON: Thank you.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: The source of the 

3 statements of activities from 1947 to 1951 is 

4 the site description chapter of the Y-12 site 

5 profile and the references cited therein. The 

6 SEC was issued after the coworker -- so you 

7 can read. I don't know -- I don't know, do 

8 you want me to read the whole -- everything?

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, please do read 

10 it out loud. Read Joyce's response.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, Joyce's 

12 response was just basically in abeyance. She 

13 recommends that the -- Joyce's response here 

14 was to -- she agreed with the NIOSH response 

15 and basically says we are in agreement with 

16 what NIOSH has said and the Subcommittee so we 

17 recommend abeyance.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Wait, what are the 

19 first couple of statements that she's talking 

20 about?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, her 

22 statement is --
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is SC&A's 

2 comments. This is NIOSH's. Your response, it 

3 says SC&A's comments on the first couple 

4 statements.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, that would 

6 be one. That would be the statement above. 

7 It's one of the first couple statements. 

8 Okay. Finding.

9 CHAIR MUNN: It says --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, and here's 

11 the issue is that the coworker model for the 

12 SEC -- this, I think, is the entirety of the 

13 issue on this. The coworker model says for 

14 '47 through '51, the model doesn't seem to 

15 make sense.

16 The SEC comes around later and 

17 says you can't do '47, and so we said, oh, 

18 okay. You're right, but it -- the SEC came 

19 later. We haven't updated this coworker thing 

20 to say it can't be '47, so we're going to 

21 change it -- so it should say '48 to '51.

22 So that's essentially what we've 
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1 promised to change, and that seems to be what 

2 Joyce has agreed with, to say, okay, then it's 

3 in abeyance until you -- now presumably, there 

4 are a lot of other changes. I don't know if 

5 we're going to change a document to change 

6 that one year, but presumably there will be 

7 other changes here.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Then, basically, 

9 NIOSH goes on to provide additional response. 

10 There's a quote from the OTIB. We've added 

11 emphasis. Should I read the whole thing?

12 CHAIR MUNN: It might be nice just 

13 to make sure that everybody's hearing the same 

14 thing.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: The quote from the 

16 OTIB is, although there are no bioassay 

17 results from before 1950 included in the 

18 database, the first intake period was assumed 

19 to begin on January 1, 1947.

20 Prior to 1947, the calutron was in 

21 operation. There are no bioassay measurements 

22 for the period, and conditions were quite --
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1 were likely quite different than at later 

2 times on the site, so this period was not 

3 included in the modeling.

4 The Technical Basis Document for 

5 the Y-12 National Security Complex, site 

6 description, and then in parentheses, ORAU 

7 2003, states Y-12 was shut down in December 

8 1946 and employment was cut drastically in 

9 reference to the calutron and associated 

10 uranium isotope separation programs.

11 The primary operations from 1947 

12 to 1951 consisted of salvage, recovery, and 

13 recycle operations with uranium preparation 

14 and machining beginning in 1949.

15 Then in italics, with emphasis 

16 there, it was therefore assumed that exposure 

17 of conditions beginning in 1947 would have 

18 been similar to those in the early 1950s. 

19 That is the quote from the OTIB.

20 Now, NIOSH goes on to add 

21 additional information. Because it is stated 

22 that employment was cut drastically, it was 
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1 assumed that new employees were not hired 

2 early in this period. Therefore, those 

3 employees in the early 1950s would be the 

4 individuals who were employed and potentially 

5 exposed in the earlier years so that their 

6 urinalysis results would be representative of 

7 the earlier time frame because uranium is 

8 excreted for many years following an intake.

9 Then, basically, to that portion 

10 of the NIOSH response, the SC&A response is 

11 two parts. The first part is NIOSH approved 

12 the statement, those employed in the early 

13 1950s would be the individuals who were 

14 employed and potentially exposed in the 

15 earlier years.

16 Then the second part is -- NIOSH 

17 statement, their urinalysis results would be 

18 representative of the earlier time frame 

19 because uranium is excreted for many years 

20 following an intake, does not prove that the 

21 excretion rates from the '50s can be applied 

22 to earlier years using the same modeling 
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1 factor for conversion into intake rates.

2 For chronic intakes, it is 

3 necessary to prove that the exposures were the 

4 same during the '50s and during the earlier 

5 times. If the exposures are proven similar, 

6 then it is possible to apply the intake rates 

7 from the '50s to the end of the '40s.

8 On the other hand, a single intake 

9 that occurred in 1948, for example, even if 

10 still seen in 1950, would have different 

11 assignments of intake depending upon the time 

12 it occurred, 1948 or 1950.

13 Joyce recommends that we continue 

14 to discuss this and keep this one in progress.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Do you have any 

16 suggestions on how to improve the --

17 COURT REPORTER: Please keep your 

18 voice up.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Sorry. Does 

20 anybody have any suggestions on how we can 

21 prove the exposures were the same in '48 and 

22 '49, when they were in '50 when the bioassay 
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1 started?

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is she asking that 

3 you prove the exposures were the same or the 

4 people -- the same people?

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I think she asked 

6 for both. I think she asked for both.

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: Stu, this is 

8 Mark. Stu, to me, the statement in the site 

9 profile actually seems to prove the opposite. 

10 I mean, it indicates that from '47 to '50 

11 they were doing different things at the site,

12 so why would I -- why would I even think that 

13 they could have the similar exposures?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: No, from -- the 

15 statement of the site profile says they're 

16 doing the same. They said that the calutron 

17 was shut down. There was no attempt to extend 

18 this bioassay back to the operation of the 

19 calutron.

20 MEMBER GRIFFON: Right, and then 

21 salvage recovery operations were conducted 

22 from '47 to '50, and then they started doing 
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1 uranium preparation and machining beginning in 

2 '49 to '50, so, I mean, it looked like salvage 

3 and recovery stuff was going on from that 

4 period, from '47 to the end of '49.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I see.

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: You know what I'm 

7 saying? It wasn't the same -- it wasn't the 

8 same operationally. Now, maybe you could 

9 argue that the uranium exposures were, if 

10 anything, lower or something. I don't know. 

11 I don't know what you're --

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, aren't there 

13 two parts to this? One is, is it the same 

14 people, and two, is it the same operation?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: I think that's what 

16 Joyce has --

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: Right.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: -- has basically 

19 two --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: She's asked first 

21 to prove that it's the same group of people. 

22 You're assuming that no new people were hired 
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1 because there was a cutback of some sort.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Or that, I guess, 

3 the assumption is -- would be that the people 

4 who were monitored in 1950 would have been the 

5 --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Same group --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: -- the 

8 radiological workers during the salvage. 

9 There's sort of this contention from the 

10 argument that, by 1950 when you're sampling 

11 these people, chances are, they were the same 

12 ones, so you're sampling these -- those 

13 populations.

14 Remember, this is a coworker 

15 thing, and -- so, yes, I understand there are 

16 two questions. So if there were people who 

17 worked on the salvage operation but did not 

18 and were exposed significantly, did not 

19 continue into machine -- and never get any 

20 bioassay, then -- I'm just trying to 

21 understand it myself -- then those people 

22 would not be reflective of the data that we 
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1 have.

2 And so those people then are 

3 missed and potentially high exposure -- maybe 

4 some of the people -- maybe the people who did 

5 a machine were completely different than the 

6 salvage people, and so it was absolutely a 

7 fresh start, and so, naturally, their bioassay 

8 isn't going to say anything about early 

9 exposure. That's the question.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think that's 

11 what she's saying.

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I agree with 

13 that, yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: The first part is, 

16 is there any way to determine that it's the 

17 same group of people? Are there name records 

18 that match up?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know what 

20 we have --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Then the second 

22 part, once you determine that, that sort of 
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1 speaks to the second issue then. Because 

2 you're sort of wondering what is the -- if 

3 they're already exposed, then that impacts on 

4 what they're doing down the line. If the 

5 fresh group, then it looks different. I 

6 believe that's what she said.

7 DR. MAURO: Yes, that's in 

8 agreement also.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: But, we may -- we 

10 don't officially have this yet, and Steve, you 

11 guys are still working on it, so you may want 

12 to clarify individually is that what Joyce is 

13 saying.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes, I think the ball 

15 is in our court. What we have here is a rough 

16 piece that we got some feedback on. We 

17 probably need to help clarify it, and right 

18 now you see we're struggling trying to 

19 understand --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I mean --

21 DR. MAURO: But, right now --

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: We're all seeing 
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1 it for the first time, and Steve said he 

2 hasn't really had a chance to --

3 DR. MAURO: Right.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: What we like to do, 

5 usually, is when we get the responses from 

6 Joyce or any of our reviewers, we like to sit 

7 down and go through them and try and clarify 

8 them a little bit, make sure we understand it, 

9 and make sure that it's clear to people -- to 

10 the subcommittee who's reading them.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: It seems to me, 

12 and NIOSH may want to particularly look at 

13 this, but I don't think we should ask them to 

14 do anything officially till we get an SC&A, 

15 you're approved.

16 DR. MAURO: Yes. I mean, what we 

17 walk away with is that we communicated a 

18 certain sensibility. It's kind of rough at 

19 the edges right now.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

21 DR. MAURO: We need to make that a 

22 little more crisp.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

2 DR. MAURO: The extent to which --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think we 

4 understand the nature of your question.

5 DR. MAURO: We think we got it, 

6 the extent to which it might be worthwhile to 

7 proceed on the part of NIOSH to look into 

8 this. Really, that's your call, but we'll 

9 clean this up and get it back out as quickly 

10 as possible.

11 CHAIR MUNN: I've set this up as 

12 two action items. One for SC&A to clarify 

13 Joyce's comments, and two for NIOSH to verify 

14 that employee records for the two periods in 

15 question do, in fact, have a large enough 

16 commonality to be able to make the --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, what I'm 

18 suggesting though, Wanda, is that if NIOSH 

19 wants to do that at this point, it seems to me

20 it's their call, but until we sort of get the 

21 bottom line -- I mean, that's what it looks 

22 like --
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1 DR. MAURO: I think that's what it 

2 is, but we can certainly clean this up so that 

3 it's crisp.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's sort of like 

5 NIOSH may want to take an early look at that 

6 issue or something. I mean --

7 CHAIR MUNN: Well, the statement 

8 seems fairly clear to me. Those employed in 

9 the early '50s would be individuals who were 

10 employed and potentially exposed in the 

11 earlier years. That's a very straightforward 

12 statement. I don't see how there's any 

13 ambiguity in that.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: If they have dose 

15 records on the Y-12, I mean, there should be -

16 - in the dose records, it should be, just go 

17 look at it and match up and see whether or not 

18 John Smith shows up in 1950 and shows up in 

19 1948.

20 CHAIR MUNN: There's no reason why 

21 we should --

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Or some fraction 
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1 of the --

2 DR. MAURO: So are they the same 

3 people, and second, whether they are or not 

4 for the early years, is the nature of the 

5 activities in those early years substantially 

6 different than in the later years?

7 And if that's where we're going, 

8 as in any coworker model, there's a certain 

9 threshold at what point can you use some other 

10 data, and --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, let me ask 

12 you, is that what you guys would do, Stu?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I would not 

14 be the person doing this, so --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, no.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: There are a 

17 couple. I think we might try the other from 

18 the backwards direction, let's say. If the 

19 exposures during machining, for instance, were 

20 higher than the exposures during recovery, 

21 than a coworker model built on bioassay during 

22 machining would bound the exposures during 
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1 recovery, in which case whether or not the 

2 people who were sampled, worked in `48, were 

3 sampled in `50 --

4 DR. MAURO: I know I've looked at 

5 a lot, at least the uranium machining 

6 operations, and the machining operations on 

7 uranium are always limiting, so --

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, and so, I'm 

9 not sure we should pass NIOSH -- we don't pass 

10 them anyway, but there may be some alternate 

11 ways for them to approach this --

12 DR. MAURO: The simplest answer 

13 may be just what you just said, that it's --

14 make the -- saying that, notwithstanding 

15 whether they're the same people or not, if we 

16 have a good set of data on, let's say, the 

17 early '50s for people that were machining and 

18 you had dust loadings or bioassay data, 

19 readings on dust loading bioassay data, I 

20 think a good case could be made and since 

21 okay, even by drawing upon some of the --

22 there's a lot of work --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: There's a lot of 

2 summary about -- summaries of --

3 DR. MAURO: We have data all over 

4 that we talked about yesterday, Adley, the 

5 Adley report, the Kingsley, Harrison 

6 Christofano report. All of those are 

7 compendia of data that sort according to job 

8 categories.

9 A recurring theme that comes out 

10 of all this is the people that were 

11 categorized like machining operators always 

12 have the highest dust loadings. Now, with 

13 that, I'm sort of like, this is what I would 

14 do if I were you. I would say, here we go.

15 Now we know, but of course, then 

16 you'd be in a position to be able to say with 

17 some conviction that the jobs that the people 

18 were doing earlier were not like that. There 

19 was some other job --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, and we had

21 to find an analogue for those.

22 DR. MAURO: Well, no, or say, no, 
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1 we're going to assume the intakes that they 

2 got, even though we don't have bioassay for 

3 them, we'll assign to them the machining 

4 intakes --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

6 DR. MAURO: -- which places an 

7 upper bound.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

9 DR. MAURO: And I think, to me, 

10 that will solve the problem. But whatever the 

11 other job was, I think there needs to be some 

12 argument made that in the earlier years, the 

13 nature of the jobs we know it to be this and 

14 here's why we know that.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Yes.

16 DR. MAURO: And also, those kinds 

17 of jobs, based on looking at all of the 

18 compendia of data, always -- the distributions 

19 are in there, were -- have a much lower 

20 potential. Then, of course, a judgment would 

21 have to be made when you do use the later data 

22 from machining folks, do you work with the 
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1 geometric mean and standard deviation, do you 

2 want to work with the upper 95th percentile, 

3 and that'll be a judgment call that perhaps 

4 you'd leave in the hands on a case-by-case 

5 basis.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I'd have to 

7 see --

8 DR. MAURO: Well, that's -- I 

9 mean, we've been through that, but I think 

10 that you're under -- that's the right track 

11 and in the end, I think -- quite frankly, I 

12 would like to work on this. I didn't work on 

13 this, but that's the --

14 MEMBER GRIFFON: John?

15 DR. MAURO: Yes?

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: The only question 

17 I would have -- I agree with everything you 

18 said. The only question I would have is, I'm 

19 not sure Adley looked at the job category of 

20 tearing down calutrons or recovery from -- you 

21 know?

22 DR. MAURO: Yes --
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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: It's a very 

2 specific operation. I would -- you might 

3 assume that the machining would bound, but I 

4 might throw a little caution in there because 

5 I'm not sure exactly what these guys were 

6 doing in the late '40s and --

7 DR. MAURO: And I agree with you, 

8 Mark. I was -- I guess I was speaking in 

9 generalities.

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: I agree.

11 DR. MAURO: If we run into that 

12 knot whereby -- listen, these guys are doing 

13 things that we don't know and they -- and we 

14 really can't pigeonhole that into any one of 

15 these broad categories that have been assigned 

16 by Adley and by Kingsley, there's a problem.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Well, your 

18 argumentative chair still argues that there's 

19 no reason why these two actions that we need 

20 to be moving forward with cannot occur in 

21 parallel. I still see that NIOSH has checking 

22 to do on specific data and that SC&A wants to 
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1 clarify the comments that have been made. Is 

2 there any reason why we can't have those two 

3 action items for the same --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: No. I think the 

5 earlier implication was that NIOSH had to 

6 check on individual workers to see whether or 

7 not they were the same people, whereas Stu has 

8 proposed an alternative to approach the 

9 problem. It seems to me that without us 

10 directing how it be done, he needs to -- he 

11 can look into that and decide the best path.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we can put it 

13 on the list.

14 CHAIR MUNN: And we will extend --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: You're putting

16 these in parallel, thinking that we're going 

17 to be done really quickly if we do them in 

18 parallel, and I won't necessarily promise that 

19 this will be done quickly.

20 CHAIR MUNN: No, I understand 

21 that, but there are action items for both the 

22 agency and the contractor.
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1 DR. MAURO: I might not -- one 

2 thing, of course, we can do is clarify and 

3 perhaps get the wording down so that it's 

4 clear and crisp with no ambiguity, I think 

5 we're close but not there yet, is there any 

6 action that we should take in looking at those 

7 early years? For example, the issue that was 

8 just raised by Mark, is there anything about 

9 the calutron tear-down that you want us to 

10 look into? Is this something --

11 CHAIR MUNN: I think it's a NIOSH 

12 --

13 DR. MAURO: And that's fine. No, 

14 no, that's -- I'm not looking for the work. I 

15 just want to make sure that the expectation 

16 isn't that we'll -- okay.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: No. I mean -- if 

18 Stu looks at that, if your people look at 

19 that, you'll make the decision as to what to 

20 do. Again, my usual caution.

21 DR. MAURO: I'm fine.

22 CHAIR MUNN: And we agree with 
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1 Joyce's direction to leave it in progress, 

2 correct?

3 (No audible response.)

4 CHAIR MUNN: All right. So we'll 

5 have -- we'll update the tracking list now or 

6 later?

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, basically, we 

8 got a third portion of this -- of issue 0029-

9 01, we have a third portion of the response --

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: -- which is 

12 basically information from the note of 

13 references was used at first, but as noted 

14 these were initial assumptions.

15 As further noted in the OTIB, 

16 however, the bioassay data had some distinct 

17 patterns, so the intake dates were adjusted to 

18 obtain a better approximation of the data.

19 There appeared to be low-level 

20 chronic intakes of uranium throughout long 

21 periods with briefer larger intakes 

22 superimposed on them. To model this pattern, 
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1 three long-term chronic exposures were assumed 

2 to cover 1947 through 1988.

3 Five shorter chronic exposures 

4 were modeled on top of the early period to 

5 account for the intermediate rises in the 

6 urine results. Therefore, the initial fitting 

7 assumptions are irrelevant because they were 

8 not used.

9 The fits were based upon the 

10 patterns of the bioassay data, and Joyce's 

11 recommendation is she agrees with that and she 

12 recommends that this portion of the issue be 

13 closed.

14 So, and I believe that's the third 

15 -- okay, yes, now we're into issue 0029-02, so 

16 those are the three portions -- the three 

17 responses to issue 0029-01, and we have three 

18 different recommendations.

19 One, the first portion being in 

20 abeyance. The second portion being remain in 

21 progress, and the third portion closed based 

22 upon previous Subcommittee actions then we --
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1 the whole issue, 0029-01, is statused as in 

2 progress.

3 I mean, that's the way we have 

4 done it in the past.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, that's the 

6 one that makes sense.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Right, the most 

8 limiting one, and that's the way it was and 

9 that's the way it was if you just look at the 

10 database; 0029-01 was in -- is in progress.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Is in progress. Do 

12 we have any objection to closing the third 

13 item under 0029-01?

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Can you close it 

15 separately or do we take the whole thing?

16 CHAIR MUNN: I think --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think he's 

18 saying until you close all parts, it stays in 

19 progress?

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that's correct, 

21 but this portion goes onto the tracking list 

22 as --
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: No, we don't track 

2 them. We can't track one, two, and -- we 

3 can't --

4 CHAIR MUNN: I understand. I 

5 understand, but this will go on our tracking 

6 list.

7 DR. MAURO: In the record.

8 CHAIR MUNN: In the record.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, we'll put the 

10 words in there that the third portion -- let 

11 me see, I don't know how full -- no. See, 

12 even at NIOSH we -- the second round of 

13 responses have not been entered in here yet, 

14 so we have to -- all this information which 

15 you are looking at here on the Word file, the 

16 NIOSH response, the NIOSH initial, or NIOSH 

17 responses, or additional responses plus the 

18 SC&A reaction to those additional responses, 

19 all that information has to be uploaded into 

20 the database.

21 CHAIR MUNN: I understand. It has 

22 yet to be loaded.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: All right. So --

2 CHAIR MUNN: But that's what's 

3 going to happen, right?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: That's what's going 

5 to happen.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Very good, and we'll 

7 remain in progress on this one.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

9 CHAIR MUNN: I would request for 

10 my records and for Paul's that at some 

11 juncture you also forward this to us.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Fine.

13 CHAIR MUNN: The hard copy that 

14 you're working on here. Let's take a 15-

15 minute break right now with the expectation 

16 that we'll take up Item 2. Do we have 

17 anything on 02?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: 02? Basically we 

19 have -- yes, we have --

20 CHAIR MUNN: Are we going onto 

21 OTIB-0068? And we have something going on 

22 with 02?
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, this is the, 

2 again, the additional or initial response from 

3 --

4 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, yes. Okay. Very 

5 good. Let's take up 02 of OTIB-0029 when we 

6 get back from break. Fifteen minutes.

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off 

8 the record at 11:00 a.m. and 

9 resumed at 11:21 a.m.)

10 CHAIR MUNN: All right. We're 

11 back where we said we were going to be, I 

12 believe. We're ready to pick up on OTIB-0068, 

13 correct? No, we're still on 0029.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: This is 0029. We 

15 do have a response on 0029-02.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: The issue was the 

18 ORISE CER database of uranium urinalysis 

19 records for the Y-12 site from 1950 to 1988 

20 was used without questioning the accuracy of 

21 these records.

22 The records were used despite the 
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1 problems pointed out by ORAU OTIB-0029. Then 

2 the latest NIOSH response, the NIOSH response 

3 of 7/23, you should be aware that there is in 

4 the database a NIOSH response -- we have a 

5 NIOSH response of 8/13.

6 Oh, this is the same. This is the 

7 same. Actually, this one got in here somehow. 

8 The records in the CER database are 

9 considered by the site to be the official dose 

10 of record. The same database is used for 

11 supplying claimant results. The site profile 

12 does contain information about reported values 

13 of factors that were applied in their 

14 calculation.

15 Reference to the site profile was 

16 an apparent oversight in the development of 

17 this document. Then the SC&A response was 

18 basically it's geared towards why -- the SC&A 

19 response is why was the statement on Page 3 of 

20 OTIB-0029 given?

21 That statement was, the 

22 assumptions used to convert mass results to 
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1 activity concentrations for inclusion in the 

2 database are not known nor are the assumptions 

3 used to normalize spot sample results to 

4 24 hours.

5 I believe this is basically --

6 Joyce is saying that the -- this is referring 

7 to the last sentence of the issue where these 

8 are some of the problems that the OTIB itself 

9 pointed out with the ORISE CER database.

10 So this is -- if you don't know 

11 this information, how can you have confidence 

12 in the values that are in the database?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I can't explain 

14 the comments or the sentences today.

15 COURT REPORTER: Sorry, I couldn't 

16 hear that.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I can't explain 

18 those sentences today, so it'll be something 

19 I'll have to go back and check on.

20 CHAIR MUNN: So NIOSH has an 

21 action item. Respond to Joyce's comment. All 

22 right. I don't show anything else on 0029. 
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1 Do we have anything else?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: No. The next one -

3 - not in this file, no.

4 CHAIR MUNN: -0068, two-day sample 

5 issue, do we have a response from NIOSH on 

6 that?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I have not 

8 prepared a response. I have some information 

9 about it.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: The -- I don't 

12 know that I'm prepared to give a response 

13 because I can't speak to why a coworker said -

14 - don't feel like that two-day adjustment is 

15 needed. We've not found a data set yet that 

16 seemed to be consistently days off samples. 

17 In other words, the data set seems to be 

18 distributed throughout the week, and we don't 

19 seem to be able to identify a trend to avoid 

20 days off if we're given the samples and 

21 perhaps that same argument then applies to 

22 individual numbers.
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1 Since we haven't seen that pattern 

2 that the data always is collected after two 

3 days off, we feel like the data we're using 

4 can be used in the manner we're using.

5 It is a fact that if you compare a 

6 two day off sample -- a five-day exposure, two 

7 days off in a sample and compare it to a 

8 seven-days exposure and a sample, even though 

9 you adjust the amount, so the same amount of 

10 intake over that week, the two day off sample 

11 is significantly lower.

12 Even on a chronic exposure, a 

13 relatively long-term chronic exposure, you can 

14 have an adjustment of 50 percent. You can be 

15 50 percent low for M, somewhat less for Y, and 

16 more for F.

17 So there is that adjustment, which 

18 mathematically would occur in that situation 

19 if you consistently have a two day off 

20 sampling period. Having not observed that, 

21 though, we don't really -- we don't have a --

22 we haven't implemented an adjustment factor.
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1 I mean, it is available if we 

2 would encounter it, but we don't have anything 

3 published.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: So does that mean 

5 that there may be an occasional one, but it 

6 sort of gets smoothed out in the population of

7 samples?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. If you have 

9 a long population of samples, and there are 

10 some Monday mornings on some other that are 

11 not Monday morning, by the time you get the 

12 data --

13 DR. MAURO: It's buffered.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's buffered. 

16 Unless they were all that way, then --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: If they're all 

18 that way, then you got --

19 DR. MAURO: And I think our work, 

20 as I recall the last time we visited this 

21 issue, was that there seems to be more of a 

22 problem in certain years, earlier years, where 
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1 there was a standard practice to have this 

2 break, but then -- and then that changed over 

3 time.

4 So, we think it is real, at least 

5 at some time period where that practice -- and 

6 so therefore that -- the records for that 

7 data, for those people in that time period, 

8 might need to be dealt with.

9 It's not -- it's a tractable 

10 problem. It's something that, if you know you 

11 have this problem -- in fact, we've already 

12 done all the numbers, this is what would 

13 happen and here are the adjustments you need 

14 to make.

15 So it sounds to me that that's not 

16 the issue. The issue is, did it happen and is 

17 that adjustment needed in the coworker model 

18 for certain time periods. For example, you 

19 may say that, well, we know that it was common 

20 practice to do that for a certain -- this time 

21 period.

22 The fix would be, okay, when 
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1 you're doing your dose reconstruction, please 

2 make these adjustments because we know that 

3 practice --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: For that time 

5 frame.

6 DR. MAURO: For that time period, 

7 but we also know that later on -- I mean, that 

8 would be the way you -- it would unfold and be 

9 resolved. Certainly, it's a tractable 

10 problem.

11 Now, if there's -- the only 

12 dilemma would be you're really not sure, you 

13 know, you're really not sure what the practice 

14 was, but I think when we looked into it, I 

15 think one of our folks looked into it and it 

16 was looked at that -- when were the samples 

17 collected.

18 I remember there was a time period 

19 when they were always on Monday morning, then 

20 later on we noticed that they were on 

21 Tuesdays, sometimes they were on Wednesdays, 

22 sometimes they were on Thursday.
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1 That pattern -- there's a time a 

2 little later when we start to see the pattern 

3 change. Always on Monday and all of the 

4 sudden we're starting to see, no, no --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it's a fact, 

6 I think, that sites preferred two day off 

7 samples. In fact, I even remember it from my 

8 own history that that was preferred, but also, 

9 if the samples sat around after collection, 

10 you couldn't get the -- the analysis would go 

11 to crap.

12 If you waited -- sample it and 

13 then waited several days to do it, you 

14 couldn't get a good analysis out of it because 

15 of the decay or whatever happened in the 

16 sample. The analysis got messed up if you 

17 waited.

18 So, rather than collect all the 

19 samples on Monday and maybe analyze them as 

20 you got to them because of capacity reasons, 

21 people collected them throughout the week. I 

22 mean, that's my recollection of my experience.
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1 Now, this was twenty-some odd 

2 years ago, so who knows if I'm remembering it 

3 correctly or not, but that seems to strike a 

4 chord with me, but I -- without, you know, I 

5 guess without some evidence, and I guess what 

6 we'd need to do is establish this time period.

7 Now, have you guys previously 

8 identified that or is it noted and not 

9 commented on or a re-look or what?

10 DR. MAURO: Yes. I recall when 

11 this came up -- I think Bob Barton may have 

12 looked -- gone into the database --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

14 DR. MAURO: -- to see if there's 

15 any evidence that, yes, it seems like there 

16 was always a sample we always collected on 

17 this Friday -- I'm sorry -- if I work through 

18 Friday, but then the first thing --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: First thing on 

20 Monday.

21 DR. MAURO: -- Monday, so what 

22 happens is during those two-day periods, you 
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1 lose the short way of -- the rapidly 

2 immobilized rate.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: That was 

4 intentional. They didn't want to see that --

5 DR. MAURO: They didn't want that 

6 because --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: -- because it's 

8 harder to interpret.

9 DR. MAURO: You're right. Because 

10 --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: It changes too 

12 fast.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes. But, in any 

14 event, the consequences of that is you have 

15 this possible underestimate that would then --

16 it effects M and S -- M and F.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: M and F. Really, 

18 not a lot on S.

19 DR. MAURO: It doesn't effect S, 

20 so anyway, now, I recall having that 

21 conversation, but I'll be the first to admit 

22 that when we revisited this recently, I 
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1 couldn't recover that.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

3 DR. MAURO: That is, I couldn't 

4 recover the evidence or the information that 

5 said, yes, that practice was, in fact, in 

6 place.

7 So, it's only my recollection that 

8 that was in place. I don't know if there's 

9 any action you'd like us to take or SC&A to 

10 take to try to recover that. When I made my 

11 inquiries after this came up the last time we 

12 discussed it, I failed.

13 I was not able to recover that 

14 information that --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and this came 

16 up, I think with relation -- we were just 

17 looking at the Y-12 coworker dataset.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it came up 

20 in that context.

21 DR. MAURO: It did.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I think we've 
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1 checked that and we've done some analysis of 

2 days of the week and it's -- the samples seem 

3 to be spread throughout the week.

4 DR. MAURO: If that's the case --

5 MEMBER GRIFFON: Stu?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes?

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: This is Mark 

8 Griffon. I also recollect -- I mean, it was 

9 more I do remember NIOSH saying that you 

10 looked at the database and looked at the days 

11 of the week sort of thing and saw a wide 

12 distribution, not just Monday mornings, but 

13 then I thought we had a rebuttal, maybe it was 

14 from SC&A, but I do remember hearing this that 

15 they -- maybe it was through interviews or 

16 whatever, they had evidence that indicated 

17 that it was a two day off thing, it wasn't 

18 always Mondays, so that people could be on 

19 off-shifts where they were working Friday 

20 through Wednesday or whatever and then having 

21 two days off and giving their samples, so it 

22 could be that they weren't working a normal 
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1 through Friday, you know?

2 But they were still giving two 

3 days off before they left their sample, so 

4 that was the rebuttal I recall. I just wonder 

5 if there's anything, I mean, through the 

6 workers that you've interviewed for Y-12, if 

7 there's any evidence of what was going on from 

8 the worker interviews.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I don't know 

10 sitting here today.

11 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I know, I 

12 know.

13 DR. MAURO: Mark, I recall that 

14 and we were the ones who made that statement 

15 and that goes back a ways, and when I was 

16 tasked to look into that to provide, okay, why 

17 did you say that. We went into the database 

18 to see if, in fact, that's where we found it.

19 Now, you bring up a point that I 

20 didn't do was that -- was the interviews. It 

21 may have emerged from perhaps Arjun and Kathy 

22 doing on a site visit and getting that. That 
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1 might be the source of the information.

2 I was operating on the assumption 

3 that somehow embedded in the database of the 

4 records we would be able to discern these 

5 patterns, but maybe I was looking in the wrong 

6 place.

7 So, I tell you what, there'd be a 

8 very simple action item, I think, for SC&A. 

9 Let me just query our interviewers to say, is 

10 that in our records from the interviews. 

11 That's where we got that information and 

12 that's the basis for it and it's not in the 

13 database; it's in the interviews.

14 That's something easy for us to 

15 do, and I think it's an action item that would 

16 help bring this to closure. We do have that 

17 information. It says yes, we have some folks 

18 said this was the practice. The next step 

19 becomes okay, what do you do about it?

20 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes. Okay.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do you think this 

22 was discussed in this Subcommittee or 
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1 somewhere else.

2 CHAIR MUNN: This was discussed 

3 here.

4 DR. MAURO: I think we talked 

5 about it here.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, if we can 

7 track when the earlier discussions on this --

8 would it have been on this item or --

9 MR. MARSCHKE: OTIB-0068 is not 

10 one of the procedures --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: It was never 

12 published, so it's never on here.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: My notes from the 

14 last meeting say OTIB-0068, NIOSH does not 

15 plan to issue.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: But the issue was 

17 that this came back -- the issue came up in 

18 the discussion of one of the TIBs. It may 

19 have been -0029.

20 DR. MAURO: I think so, too. I 

21 think that is -0029.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: So it -- if it --
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: If we know when it 

2 was discussed, it'll show up in the 

3 transcript.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: It would be in the 

5 transcript, yes.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, you can 

7 check on your database when we discussed this 

8 last and go to the transcript of that date.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: It may not be the 

10 last -- I don't think it was the last time.

11 DR. MAURO: No, it was not the 

12 last time. It was not.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: I don't think it 

14 was either. I sort of remember it, but it's 

15 been a while.

16 CHAIR MUNN: We probably should 

17 check -0029 to see if that was the correct --

18 urinalysis records that would be Item 2 of 

19 OTIB-0029 it looks like.

20 No. It would be Item 4. NIOSH 

21 did not use the fact that urine samples were 

22 collected on Monday. That would've been it.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, there it is. 

2 Yes, Item 4. OTIB-0029-04.

3 CHAIR MUNN: 04, yes.

4 DR. MAURO: Now, we don't have it 

5 in a database, but you're saying that maybe we 

6 could find it in the transcript where we 

7 discussed it earlier. Okay, so let me see 

8 what I can do.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, what we have 

10 -- basically, we have this -- okay, this is in 

11 progress. We made this in progress last time 

12 even though we had recommended it be in 

13 abeyance. The Subcommittee decided that it 

14 should be in progress.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Contingent upon 

16 NIOSH's providing the following documentation. 

17 The samples were not collected on Mondays, 

18 most of the plant's history of primary urine 

19 analysis collection method was a spot sample 

20 submitted Monday morning before entering the 

21 work area.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: That should give 
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1 us the date of the --

2 DR. MAURO: The date of the --

3 yes, what is the --

4 CHAIR MUNN: 3/9/29. I mean, 3/9 

5 of --

6 MR. MARSCHKE: The meeting was 

7 3/24.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that's correct.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I think -- yes, 

10 the transcript is available.

11 CHAIR MUNN: The transcript is 

12 available; yes, it is. I can assure you. 

13 March is done. May is done. So, I have an 

14 action item for SC&A to query the database and 

15 the data sources.

16 DR. MAURO: And the transcript.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: The transcript and 

18 the interviews.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes, and the 

20 interviews. Yes, get to the bottom of this.

21 CHAIR MUNN: With the data sources 

22 and database and transcript. All right. We 
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1 will leave that in progress and move onto the 

2 next item, which is distribute draft transfer 

3 IG-004-03 and -07 to the Surrogate Data Work 

4 Group.

5 I have not done that because I did 

6 not have our transfer letter complete and 

7 approved. Now that we have our transfer 

8 letter complete and approved, I'll take that 

9 as an action for the next meeting. I'll try 

10 to accomplish that shortly.

11 MR. ELLIOTT: That's IG-004 --

12 CHAIR MUNN: -3 and -7.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, okay.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Goes to the Surrogate 

15 Data Work Group.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay.

17 CHAIR MUNN: To identify changes 

18 in SC&A procedure used to review NIOSH 

19 procedures, briefly revisit entire text for 

20 other potential updates.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: We have not done 

22 that as of this point primarily because we 
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1 were not really reviewing any procedures and 

2 utilizing that procedure; haven't done 

3 recently, so we kind of put that on the back 

4 burner.

5 If the Subcommittee instructs us 

6 to bring it forward, we will bring it forward 

7 and get it done by the next -- I guess the 

8 next meeting is the 17th of November or 

9 whenever the next meeting is.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is in 

11 November.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Put that as an 

13 action item again -- we can make it as an 

14 action item again and make sure that we get it 

15 accomplished this time.

16 CHAIR MUNN: I will have it on for 

17 the next meeting.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Then review the 

20 commonalities table to include two items from 

21 OTIB-0035-01.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: This was -- the 
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1 document was discussed at the last 

2 Subcommittee meeting back in August, I guess 

3 it was, and there was a couple of concerns 

4 about the document.

5 One concern was to make sure it 

6 was in more of a document format. Before, it 

7 did not have this disclaimer header on it and 

8 it wasn't really -- it just had a title, it 

9 did not have any subsections or anything like 

10 that, so what I did was I went through and I 

11 kind of restructured it as a document.

12 I'm not sure that this is the way 

13 we want to -- this kind of has belts and 

14 suspenders. It has the disclaimer header on 

15 the -- each page, and it also has the SC&A 

16 standard cover page, as well, so I don't know 

17 if we need both of those, but then I did go 

18 through and I did, again, structure it as a 

19 more structured document with an introduction 

20 and then a couple subsections.

21 DR. MAURO: Can I just say 

22 something about protocol?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

2 DR. MAURO: The fact that you put 

3 it into a more appropriate standard protocol, 

4 we still have a process where everything goes 

5 through Nancy Johnson.

6 In other words, if this is 

7 deliverable to a work group or to the full 

8 Board as opposed to -- the process we use now 

9 is, this goes through Nancy for a variety of 

10 reasons so that it's tracked, that it gets PA11 cleared if it turns out this is a document you 

12 want to discuss with the public.

13 In other words, so any work 

14 product so the fact that we have it in an 

15 appropriate format, that's just the first 

16 part. If this becomes a deliverable to a work 

17 group as opposed to just notes that are being 

18 loaded up into the database, this is like a 

19 white paper, we have to deliver this in a 

20 formal fashion.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: The other item that 

22 came up at the last meeting was -- and the 
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1 other change to this was the addition of the 

2 commonality between issues -0029-03, -0035-01, 

3 and -0037-04, which is the distribution 

4 selection process and whether or not a full 

5 distribution is always selected or whether or 

6 not the Dose Reconstructor selects the 

7 appropriate distribution to utilize.

8 I think that is the actual course 

9 that NIOSH has been pursuing, and we just want 

10 to make sure that the procedures for the OTIBs 

11 reflect that and don't give the impression 

12 that they always use the full distribution.

13 So that was the formatting and 

14 then the submission of Section 3.3 on the 

15 distribution selection were the changes that 

16 were made to this commonality. I guess the 

17 thing is -- so this is really a draft -- pre18 deliverable draft at this point if the 

19 Subcommittee has any ideas for enhancement or 

20 changes, modifications to this before we 

21 deliver it.

22 DR. MAURO: Let me ask a question. 
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1 This issue of the distribution, bear with me, 

2 I thought that this was simply we had a 

3 discussion on this matter, and we had a 

4 conference call with Jim and the bottom line 

5 is that yes, the fact that we -- originally, 

6 the way the words were written was that no, 

7 you always use the geometric mean -- the full 

8 distribution. That's a fix.

9 Jim agreed, no, no, no, we need to 

10 make sure that some degree of judgment has to 

11 be used. Sometimes it makes sense to use the 

12 full distribution, but sometimes it makes 

13 sense to use the upper end depending on the --

14 this is the coworker model -- depending on the 

15 job of the person.

16 If there's some ambiguity about 

17 that, you go with the upper end. Now, I guess 

18 I'm not quite sure -- once we agree in 

19 principle on that matter, is there a -- are 

20 you saying this is deliverable here from us?

21 MR. MARSCHKE: What we were asked 

22 to do, John, is look at all the issues that 
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1 come down from various sites and see which 

2 ones are common issues across different 

3 fronts.

4 DR. MAURO: And this currently is.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: This is a common 

6 issue across different sites.

7 DR. MAURO: Okay. Okay, so --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: And so we want to 

9 make sure that these common issues are 

10 addressed in a common fashion --

11 DR. MAURO: Got you.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: -- as much as

13 practicable across the different sites. 

14 That's all that this is doing.

15 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: This is not trying 

17 to --

18 DR. MAURO: To reopen --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: -- to resolve the 

20 issue or reopen the issue. This is more of a 

21 --

22 DR. MAURO: Thank you for getting 
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1 me back on track.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: There's an 

3 accompanying document that you had with this. 

4 It was the tables with the highlighted --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: This is -- and it's 

6 still here.

7 DR. MAURO: And these are 

8 deliverable.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: This is basically 

10 the deliverable --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: There's two 

12 interesting things. The findings have a 

13 commonality of how they're expressed, as well, 

14 and the responses have sort of a common -- in 

15 fact, if you found different responses for the 

16 same parallel finding, then you would -- there 

17 would be some cause for concern, I think.

18 The issue of whether it's the 

19 right response is separate, but is the 

20 response consistent with the same kind of 

21 finding I think was the issue. Was it?

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I believe so, 
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1 and it appears to be --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: In other words, in 

3 one case you raise this issue, then they 

4 respond one way and another case with the same 

5 issue at a different site is at a different 

6 response. I think we've seen consistency both 

7 in terms of how you are expressing findings of 

8 these types and how NIOSH is responding --

9 MR. MARSCHKE: The other use of 

10 this is if NIOSH -- if we do raise common 

11 issues across sites and NIOSH hasn't responded 

12 to some of them and it's a common issue that 

13 has been resolved at another site, we can 

14 bring that response over and close out that --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: The resolutions 

16 ought to have some parallel. It's helpful.

17 DR. MAURO: This is an important 

18 deliverable. Let's get it through Nancy. 

19 Let's get it through the formal process for 

20 delivery.

21 CHAIR MUNN: It's a very important 

22 deliverable.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Remind me what the 

2 red meant on your --

3 MR. MARSCHKE: The red is only a 

4 means, and maybe I shouldn't have used red 

5 because red has different connotations to it, 

6 but it doesn't mean anything. It's just --

7 anything that is red, all the red issues are 

8 similar issues, common issues.

9 All the blue issues --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Are common --

11 MR. MARSCHKE: -- are common --

12 are one set of common issues. All the red 

13 issues are one set of common issues, and all 

14 the yellow issues are another set of common 

15 issues.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, so the 

17 colors you chose aren't --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: The colors aren't 

19 meaningful.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: The colors have no 

22 meaning in and of themselves. It's just a way 
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1 to group --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I was concerned on 

3 the red ones whether there was some --

4 MR. MARSCHKE: No.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- other meaning.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: No.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Steve, I found this 

8 to be a very impressive document and, very 

9 frankly, I have not had an opportunity to read 

10 through it as completely as I would like to. 

11 I simply glanced at it, was impressed, and 

12 thought we must really go over this carefully.

13 Are members on the phone line able 

14 to see the document that Steve sent us? Do 

15 you have that, Mark?

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I have that 

17 one.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Two of them.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Mike?

20 MEMBER GIBSON: No, it didn't come 

21 through for me.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, it didn't come 
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1 through?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: It was emailed --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: It was several 

4 days ago.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: It was emailed, I 

6 think, yesterday or the day before yesterday.

7 MEMBER GIBSON: Okay. Let me 

8 check the file.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Both of them have 

10 the word commonality in the attachment.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it should be on 

12 your standard email from Steve. My only 

13 concern with this is I see two actions 

14 necessary here. One is I think the members of 

15 the Subcommittee -- certainly, I would like a 

16 little more time to absorb the contents a 

17 little more thoroughly since they're 

18 significant in many -- at many levels.

19 I suspect that that's probably 

20 true of Mark and Mike, as well, since it's 

21 fairly recent. As John has pointed out, there 

22 are certain issues that need to be addressed 
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1 in terms of process in their shop to get this 

2 ready for wider distribution.

3 What's the desire of the body with 

4 respect to this? I would prefer to defer it 

5 at least until we've had adequate time to 

6 actually study it a little bit. Don't know 

7 whether it's reasonable to defer it to our 

8 next meeting or not, whether that's necessary. 

9 Paul?

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: My question is, is 

11 this at this point in your shop a draft, John? 

12 In other words, you haven't actually signed 

13 off on it.

14 DR. MAURO: That's correct. Yes, 

15 I think I'd like to look at this as if this 

16 was a special study --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, the copy 

18 we got looks like a deliverable already.

19 DR. MAURO: But it shouldn't be.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: But it's not 

21 signed.

22 DR. MAURO: Exactly. It did not 
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1 go through --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's still in 

3 draft form.

4 DR. MAURO: Now -- so, this is 

5 unlike the interactions we normally have 

6 regarding issues resolution. What this was is 

7 really a special study.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 DR. MAURO: Almost as if you were 

10 asking us to do a procedure review.

11 CHAIR MUNN: We just about did.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes, and that's what 

13 this is.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

15 DR. MAURO: As a formal work 

16 product on behalf of -- this past three, we 

17 have to go through our due process. This 

18 didn't go through that process, so the action 

19 is in our house now and it doesn't hurt that 

20 you have it before you, but reality is until 

21 we deliver it formally to you as our work 

22 product, we probably should -- it's not 
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1 something that you may want to initiate 

2 anything on right now.

3 You can certainly look at it, I 

4 mean, but I'm saying that we have not 

5 delivered this.

6 CHAIR MUNN: I understand. I 

7 understand. My concern is whether or not 

8 there might be items of interest to the 

9 Subcommittee that they might want to express 

10 to you or ask broader or more narrow, focused 

11 questions.

12 DR. MAURO: Quite frankly, I think 

13 that we don't have to hold to a -- you have 

14 it, read it, get a reaction, feed it back as 

15 if you were part of the internal review 

16 process feeding back -- I mean, that's what it 

17 comes down to now.

18 You have, in effect, an advance 

19 copy of the draft work product that SC&A has 

20 been working on.

21 CHAIR MUNN: That we've asked for.

22 DR. MAURO: And that you asked 
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1 for, and certainly, we would more than welcome 

2 any feedback on it so that we could make it 

3 the best product we can for you. So, 

4 certainly, give us your comments.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: I guess -- yes, the 

6 question is, if you want the formal revision 

7 by the next procedure review meeting, which, 

8 again, I think it's November 17, then we 

9 probably need a week or two before that to get 

10 this through Nancy and get this through the 

11 SC&A internal publication --

12 DR. MAURO: And then PA.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: And then PA.

14 DR. MAURO: There's nothing here, 

15 I think, that's DOE, right? I mean, we have 

16 to --

17 MR. MARSCHKE: There shouldn't be.

18 DR. MAURO: See, once we enter 

19 this realm of a deliverable that's eventually 

20 going to go public, but these are one of these 

21 questions I ask Joe. I passed this by Joe 

22 Fitzgerald. I said, Joe, is there any reason 
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1 here that -- is there any information here 

2 that you think -- and usually he errs on the 

3 safe side.

4 He sends it off for review to DOE 

5 if there is any information that he thinks DOE 

6 would like to see. So, once we enter this 

7 more formal process, it is quite time 

8 consuming, unfortunately.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, I guess the 

10 question is -- what I was trying to back11 calculate was how late in the process can the 

12 Subcommittee provide us feedback and still get 

13 it into the document before the next meeting.

14 CHAIR MUNN: My request was going 

15 to be to the Subcommittee members that they 

16 commit to having any comments that they may 

17 have to you by the end of this month. Is that 

18 reasonable? Mark?

19 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, that's fine. 

20 Yes.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Mike?

22 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, that's good.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Paul?

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Let's say that if you 

4 do have any comments on this you will have 

5 them to the other Subcommittee members and to 

6 SC&A no later than the witch's flight the end 

7 of this month.

8 That will give a full two weeks of 

9 work time, plus a day for any --

10 DR. MAURO: And once we get it. 

11 Now, so at the end of the month we have all 

12 your feedback.

13 CHAIR MUNN: The end of the month 

14 --

15 DR. MAURO: It goes through due 

16 process within SC&A, which basically means a 

17 week of internal review and editing. At that 

18 point, a judgment is made does this need to go 

19 to DOE?

20 It goes to DOE usually one to two 

21 weeks, I would say two weeks, to DOE then to 

22 give its approval. And then it comes back --
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1 at that point it becomes deliverable, 

2 strangely enough, to the Work Group and 

3 simultaneously goes to PA.

4 PA clears it, and then it becomes 

5 something that could actually go up on the web 

6 as a public document. That's how the process 

7 goes, so I guess what I'm saying is one week -

8 - one week -- it's really a month, so starting 

9 November 1, I would say it'll -- before it 

10 actually -- it'll say ready for prime time, 

11 whole distribution. We're talking about a 

12 one-month turnaround.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: So we may not get 

14 it back in time for the November 17, but --

15 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: -- but --

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, I would say that 

18 that's not -- it's unlikely we'd have it for 

19 the October meeting.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: What are we going 

22 to do with it at that point once it's cleared?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: We are going to --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I mean, I guess 

3 the value of the document was to put these 

4 things side by side and look for the 

5 consistency and --

6 CHAIR MUNN: Well, the original 

7 intent was to make sure that this information 

8 was transmitted adequately to NIOSH so that it 

9 could be incorporated into their 

10 considerations of what we call either our 

11 overarching issues or other commonalities so 

12 that we didn't continue to address the same 

13 issue in eight different venues.

14 DR. MAURO: That was a whole bunch 

15 --

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. Yes, so whether 

17 our intent has changed, I don't know, but that 

18 was our original intent was to make sure that 

19 the issues that we raised here through the 

20 commonalities question would all be available 

21 to NIOSH as they move forward in their large 

22 issues concerns, which would mean, simply, 
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1 once it's available that we would transmit it 

2 as a product of the Subcommittee for the use 

3 of the agency.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Probably the 

5 working information is already in the --

6 probably the working information that you need 

7 to know is not going to change from what you 

8 have before you, so really, the formal 

9 document coming out is a formality.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. I think that's 

11 true. I think that's true. We just want it 

12 to be of record.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Mike, did you find 

14 the email with the document in it, or should I 

15 send you another copy of it?

16 MEMBER GIBSON: I do have it.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, good.

18 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Very 

19 good. Then we will see if things go smoothly 

20 and we do or don't have it available next 

21 time, but in any case, the immediate action 

22 will be for the Subcommittee members to 
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1 provide any comments that they have, whatever, 

2 to SC&A by the end of this month.

3 DR. MAURO: It could move very 

4 quickly after we get your comments, if it 

5 doesn't have to go to DOE.

6 CHAIR MUNN: My guess is that you 

7 will not have significant comments. That 

8 would be my guess, unless someone already sees 

9 something that they have a problem with.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: You have some 

11 spelling things, but I assume your spell check 

12 is going to take care of those.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, yes.

14 DR. MAURO: All the editorial -- I

15 guess its information content.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. Right.

17 DR. MAURO: The information: is it 

18 cleared? Does it do the things you'd like it 

19 to do?

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Any document I 

21 write will have that kind of spelling problems 

22 in it.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: We can overcome 

2 those. We have machines to do that, 

3 fortunately. Our next item, review the NIOSH 

4 response to OTIB-0047-01.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: I want to 

6 apologize. Can we go back to -0029-02 just 

7 for a second?

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I got some 

10 information via email from Liz Brackett about 

11 that discussion. The -- it has to do with 

12 this wording here. This quote from OTIB-0029 

13 is -- that's in OTIB-0029.

14 The person who wrote OTIB-0029 was 

15 writing from prior -- or experience from --

16 personal experience from years ago, and in 

17 fact, during our research of the site profile, 

18 we did, in fact, find the factors -- the 

19 assumptions of -- the factors that were used 

20 for conversion spot samples to daily output 

21 and also for the mass -- those activities. 

22 Those were found and the site 
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1 profile says that. In fact, it's Section -- I 

2 can probably tell you here, in Section --

3 well, I'll have to wait for my computer to 

4 cooperate.

5 Surely, it's in Chapter 5.

6 DR. MAURO: So they -- the reality 

7 is the statement, they are known.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: They are known. 

9 The statement is incorrect.

10 DR. MAURO: The statement is -- it 

11 needs to be removed --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: It needs to be 

13 removed --

14 DR. MAURO: -- because the 

15 information --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: The information 

17 exists --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Whoever was 

19 writing that didn't know at the time --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: At the time they 

21 wrote it, they didn't know that we had found 

22 those conversions, and so -- yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: Well, in principle, 

2 then this issue is resolved.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we had --

4 well, in terms of abeyance --

5 DR. MAURO: Yes, until that 

6 statement is removed.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes, good.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: But that's the way 

10 it sounds to me.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, I got that 

12 little email. Outlook can't find the server, 

13 so it'll find it in a little bit.

14 DR. MAURO: Okay.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: A little bit. In 

16 fact, I can -- I will -- periodically, Outlook 

17 can't find its server. That happens 

18 periodically, either here or on a desktop.

19 Usually, it's short-term.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, the revision 

21 would be that the assumptions to convert mass 

22 to activity are --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I would just say 

2 are described --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- are described 

4 in the site profile. Something to that 

5 effect.

6 DR. MAURO: That is the end of the 

7 slide.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Got you.

9 MEMBER GRIFFON: John, the only 

10 question I would have is, do you want to walk 

11 back the finding because this is what happens 

12 when we work from these matrices or from these 

13 final things a lot of times.

14 I mean, if I were reviewing this -

15 - I'm trying to put myself in SC&A's shoes. 

16 If I reviewed this and saw that that statement 

17 was made but later in the document they 

18 actually have found the factors, then wouldn't 

19 my finding data there mean there's an 

20 inconsistency within your procedure rather 

21 than that you don't have the factors? You 

22 understand what I'm saying?
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: I think they have 

2 to change OTIB-0029 to make it consistent and 

3 to leave it -- point to the site profile and 

4 say, this information is provided in the site 

5 profile.

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay, so we're 

7 going to say profile, not in another place in 

8 the TIB?

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: Is that what 

11 you're saying?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Correct.

13 MEMBER GRIFFON: Oh, okay. All 

14 right. Okay. Then never mind.

15 CHAIR MUNN: I love that line. 

16 Any other comments on the OTIB-0029 questions? 

17 Then we're back to reviewing NIOSH response 

18 to OTIB-0047-01.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think we 

20 sent anything on that. Steve, do you have 

21 anything on the database on that?

22 MR. MARSCHKE: -0047-01 is -- is 
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1 Bob Barton on the line?

2 MR. BARTON: Yes, I'm here, Steve.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: We did receive 

4 something from you right -- I think it was 

5 right after --

6 MR. BARTON: Right after the 

7 meeting.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Right after the 

9 meeting. This is one of the cases where I 

10 have the emails here, but I can't open them. 

11 I think you did some comparisons between data 

12 which was found in an Access database, a dose 

13 record database, and some numbers which were 

14 the coworker numbers.

15 Correct me if I go off course 

16 here, Bob. We like the idea of doing the 

17 comparison, but we think there's a units 

18 conversion or a mathematical error in what was 

19 done. We think we're comparing weekly data 

20 from the database to quarterly coworker doses 

21 and coming up with the finding that -- or 

22 coming up with a result that the weekly 
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1 numbers are much smaller than the quarterly 

2 numbers so therefore we have no problem.

3 Well, we think the correction has 

4 to be made to the comparison so that we're 

5 comparing quarterly exposures to quarterly --

6 quarterly exposures from the database to 

7 quarterly exposures from the dose -- the 

8 coworker model.

9 When that is done, I think we 

10 would be in agreement with NIOSH on this one. 

11 Anything you would like to add, Bob?

12 MR. BARTON: Not really. I think 

13 you put it very well. I think the document 

14 everybody's looking at -- the real comparisons 

15 were made in what's called New Table 5-5, and 

16 I believe that's on Page 20, the bottom of 

17 Page 20 of what everybody's looking at.

18 CHAIR MUNN: We're not looking --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: We don't have much 

20 of anything here because I can't get it open. 

21 It's in my --

22 MR. BARTON: Essentially, the 
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1 database has weekly exposures for workers. 

2 They changed out their badges every seven 

3 days, and so when NIOSH went and calculated 

4 the mean dose, what they were actually 

5 calculating, was the mean weekly dose for the 

6 quarter and not the mean dose for the quarter.

7 So in order to make it a 

8 meaningful comparison, these mean weekly doses 

9 would have to be scaled up to a full quarter 

10 and then compared with their coworker 

11 quarterly doses.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: And Bob has done a 

13 -- some of that based upon some assumptions 

14 that he made, but we think NIOSH probably 

15 should do -- would want to do it -- do their 

16 own calculations.

17 I will forward -- when I get back 

18 tomorrow, I will forward that information and 

19 make sure that the Subcommittee has it.

20 MR. BARTON: If I just might -- I 

21 might add in here, Steve, when you take the 

22 mean weekly dose and just scale it up to a 
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1 quarter by, say, multiplying it by 12.5 weeks 

2 in a quarter, in most cases the coworker model 

3 is still higher. In some cases, it's not.

4 So I think that if you took those 

5 values and maybe scrubbed them a little bit, 

6 so, for instance, dose entries that were 

7 perhaps at the MDL, sometimes it's common 

8 practice, to evaluate it at half the MDL, you 

9 can do those sort of things and we found that 

10 in almost all cases, the coworker model is 

11 claimant-favorable, but I think, like you just 

12 said, we just feel that NIOSH should take an 

13 independent look at it and be able to draw 

14 their own conclusions about it.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I'll have to 

16 go back and check. I have now found that 

17 document that was sent, and so I have that in 

18 front of me, but in terms of whether it's -- I 

19 won't be able to tell from this whether 

20 there's weekly data compared to quarterly 

21 data, so I have to double-check.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: We do have the name 
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1 of the access data file that we downloaded 

2 from the O: drive, and we will provide that 

3 information, as well, to the Subcommittee and 

4 to NIOSH.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Do you have the 

6 folder and its name?

7 MR. MARSCHKE: We have the folder 

8 and its name and it's right here, right in 

9 this -- right in this email that's right up 

10 there, which I cannot open.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: So I apologize for 

13 not beta testing this before I came down for 

14 the meeting today.

15 CHAIR MUNN: None of us could do 

16 it. So, the only action I have then that 

17 Steve's going to be sending more information 

18 to the Subcommittee about this, but the ball -

19 - there's still -- Stu, do you feel you have 

20 some action here?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, yes. I 

22 mean, I have -- I mean, I totally have an 
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1 action it seems like. Not looking at the 

2 database, I don't know if Bob's response is 

3 captured there yet.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: No, it's not.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: But we know what 

6 it is, and so we can go check on it. Like I 

7 said, I won't be able to tell today when we 

8 did it.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: And I'll get this 

11 information to you tomorrow morning.

12 CHAIR MUNN: All right. That's 

13 good. For the moment, I'll carry the action 

14 item as an SC&A item and with the expectation 

15 that Stu may or may not have an opportunity to 

16 work on -- to assimilate that information and 

17 have a response for us about where we are with 

18 the status of this particular finding, if it 

19 needs to stay in progress or if we're able to 

20 close out any of it.

21 Our next item is a carryover from 

22 the previous meeting, OTIB-0051-01, a NIOSH 
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1 action.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we -- that 

3 should be on the database. Our response 

4 should be on the database. I had sent it to 

5 the Subcommittee back in August, shortly after 

6 our last meeting.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Which one was it?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: -0051-01.

9 CHAIR MUNN: So, I don't -- all I 

10 have is your initial response, right, and then 

11 -- 6/9/2009.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I still can't open 

13 my email, so I can't verify that I can find 

14 that sent email.

15 CHAIR MUNN: It says NIOSH will 

16 provide an update at the next committee 

17 meeting. That was in June we had that.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: -0051-03.

19 CHAIR MUNN: -0051-01. It's the 

20 effective threshold energy and angular 

21 response of NTA film on missed neutron dose at 

22 Oak Ridge Y-12.
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1 And the last shown action here was 

2 from June 9, 2009. NIOSH will provide an 

3 update at the next Subcommittee meeting. So, 

4 what we're looking at now is the carryover 

5 from that.

6 You sent us something, but it 

7 didn't get onto the database. Is that what 

8 I'm hearing? Stu?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it was 

10 supposed to have been entered, but it didn't 

11 get read over, apparently.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do you recall what 

13 the title of the document was?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: No, and I can't 

15 find my email to tell you what it is. I can't 

16 get in my email.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: What is that OTIB? 

18 What's the title of the OTIB?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Effect of threshold 

20 energy and angular response of NTA film and 

21 missed neutron dose at the Oak Ridge Y-12 

22 facility.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm looking for a 

2 keyword. I mean, out of all these documents 

3 of this Subcommittee, I'm looking for that 

4 one. I don't see it. I mean, normally, I 

5 file them under the OTIB number and I don't 

6 see the OTIB.

7 CHAIR MUNN: You believe it came 

8 right at you at the August meeting?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I thought it did. 

10 I have a note here that it was sent 8/21.

11 MR. KATZ: Mark, do you have an 

12 email from Stu from 8/21?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It wouldn't have 

14 gone to his HHS email.

15 MR. KATZ: Oh, how about your 

16 personal email?

17 MR. HINNEFELD: It would've gone 

18 to his old email.

19 MEMBER GRIFFON: I have to check 

20 that. What's the date? May --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: August 21.

22 MEMBER GRIFFON: August 21.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: I have a long --

2 MEMBER GRIFFON: I'll check it.

3 CHAIR MUNN: -- a long set of 

4 responses that were sent, but there's so many 

5 of them. I've gotten through 47. There is 

6 OTIB-0051-03. I have -03.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, -03 up there 

8 but that was before -- because those are in 

9 August, that's all.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: That was sent on 

11 August -- I think it was sent on August 13.

12 MS. THOMAS: Stu, this is Elyse --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes?

14 MS. THOMAS: -- and you sent that 

15 email on August 20.

16 MR. KATZ: August 20 says Elyse.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Thanks, Elyse.

18 MS. THOMAS: I was copied so I can 

19 send it out to the -- I can forward it again 

20 if you all are having trouble.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: That would be 

22 great for a lot of people, but I can't -- my 
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1 email won't open, so --

2 MR. KATZ: That'll work for 

3 everyone else here.

4 MEMBER GRIFFON: That would be 

5 great if you can forward it. I don't --

6 MS. THOMAS: All right. I'll 

7 resend it.

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: I don't seem to 

9 have it. Okay.

10 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Elyse.

11 CHAIR MUNN: I don't have anything 

12 on that date. While we're waiting for that 

13 to come through, would this be an ideal time 

14 for us to break for lunch?

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

16 CHAIR MUNN: We'll let that 

17 happen.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I will email it to 

19 you all.

20 CHAIR MUNN: That's good. We will 

21 -- let's wait for Elyse to do some email 

22 magic for us, and we'll try to be back here 
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1 1:35. Is that amenable to the folks on the 

2 phone?

3 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, that's good.

4 CHAIR MUNN: 1:35. We'll try to 

5 be prompt. Thanks much. We're going to sign 

6 off now.

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off 

8 the record at 12:20 p.m. and 

9 resumed at 1:36 p.m.)

10 MR. KATZ: Okay, this is Advisory 

11 Board on Radiation Worker Health, Subcommittee 

12 on Procedures Review, and we had a little 

13 technical difficulty making the phone work, 

14 but we're back on now.

15 Let me check, Mark and Mike, are 

16 you with us again?

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: I am here.

18 MR. KATZ: Great.

19 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, this Mike. 

20 I'm here.

21 MR. KATZ: Great.

22 CHAIR MUNN: I have just sent to 
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1 all of you that are on standard distribution

2 for the Subcommittee the most recent draft of 

3 our proposed letter to the Secretary.

4 I sent it not to your CDC mail but 

5 to your standard personal mail that I usually 

6 use, so you may want to take a moment to check 

7 to see if you've received that yet. In the 

8 meantime, I think most of us here have 

9 received what Elyse sent with respect to 

10 findings on the third set of DRs review.

11 Is that really what we want? Yes, 

12 it's procedures review. I think the title on 

13 it was incorrect. We'll see if that's what we 

14 have. Do -- Mark and Mike, do you have that 

15 from her?

16 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes. It just came 

17 in, Wanda.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Thanks, Mike.

19 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I got the 

20 email, too. Yes.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. I'm just now 

22 downloading it. Did you receive my email yet?
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1 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Got it. Do you want 

3 to take a moment to read through that? We 

4 discussed the changes we were going to make. 

5 I think we've made the ones that we discussed, 

6 and I believe you see them there.

7 So, let's take five while you read 

8 through those and see if there's a problem 

9 with anything. I have not filled in the final 

10 numbers. I won't do that until we're actually 

11 ready to send the letter out.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Steve, could you 

13 confirm -- was it 80 or 81 percent and that 

14 was 81 percent of the findings or of the 

15 procedures?

16 MR. MARSCHKE: I think it was of 

17 the findings.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Of the findings 

19 have been addressed?

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: And the number 

22 could change, but right now it's 80 percent?
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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: Wanda, did you 

2 send that to me? I don't seem to get it. I 

3 thought you sent it on the -- I checked both 

4 of my emails now and I don't see it.

5 CHAIR MUNN: I did. Let me 

6 double-check to see whether my email for some 

7 reason fails to do right by you.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: His name is on the 

9 send out list, but --

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: I just got it. I 

11 just got it. It's just coming in now.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

13 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay. Thank you.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's a long ways 

15 up there from here.

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

17 MR. ELLIOTT: Real slow today.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Especially on some 

19 networks that --

20 DR. MAURO: Eighty-one percent are 

21 either undergoing deliberation or have been 

22 resolved.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Out there in the 

2 ether, we are making a change to the last 

3 sentence of the third paragraph. We're 

4 changing it to giving a total of over 

5 80 percent having been deliberated or closed 

6 rather than addressed.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, although 

8 we've already said 49 percent have been closed 

9 or resolved, right?

10 CHAIR MUNN: So deliberated needs 

11 to come out. Having been --

12 DR. MAURO: Under active 

13 deliberation.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Having been 

15 deliberated rather than addressed.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: So what is the 

17 wording going to be?

18 CHAIR MUNN: Giving a total of 

19 over 80 percent having been deliberated.

20 MR. KATZ: Well, you can say 

21 discussed, but it's not good English having 

22 been deliberated.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: I guess it isn't.

2 MR. KATZ: A group deliberates, 

3 but you -- and you can deliberate upon 

4 something, but --

5 CHAIR MUNN: And then that would 

6 make Winston Churchill unhappy.

7 MR. KATZ: You can say reviewed.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well --

9 CHAIR MUNN: Is that acceptable to 

10 you?

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is the previous 

12 sentence about the complete group of 

13 procedures scrutinized, that's everything that 

14 SC&A has done?

15 CHAIR MUNN: Totals -- yes, totals 

16 everything.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Or is that what 

18 we've done?

19 CHAIR MUNN: Well, that's what 

20 we've done.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is that the 

22 80 percent? That's what I'm asking.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes. The 81 percent 

2 are the ones that have undergone some degree 

3 of deliberation by the group. A subset of 

4 that have actually been closed. A subset of 

5 that have been transferred. In other words --

6 but --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, we could say 

8 81 percent of the procedures or we have 

9 scrutinized 81 percent of the procedures or --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: They were not of 

11 the procedures. Eighty-one percent of the 

12 issues.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: How about of the 

14 number of -- of the -- let's see, the total --

15 the number of individual findings totals 538, 

16 80 percent of which have been -- 81 percent of 

17 which have been considered by the Subcommittee 

18 and 49 percent of which have been closed. 

19 Something like --

20 CHAIR MUNN: Well, let's make --

21 if we're going to do that, I would prefer we 

22 make two sentences out of it.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

2 CHAIR MUNN: So, we say the number 

3 of individual findings totals 238, semicolon, 

4 we have deliberated more than 80 percent of 

5 those. Then the next sentence, 265 or 

6 49 percent have been resolved and closed.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Fifty-nine?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Fifty-eight. I got 

9 258.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Well, these are 

11 numbers that I put in before we did anything 

12 today. So, before -- I will check with you 

13 before we release this as correct numbers. 

14 Yes.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes, get the language 

16 and a placeholder.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Aren't the ones 

19 that are in abeyance also being resolved?

20 DR. MAURO: Yes.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes, and I think we 
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1 should -- we don't need to speak about them 

2 separately, but I would consider that part 

3 something that the group has been resolved.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: So can we take this 

5 one, 258, and add the 86 that are in abeyance 

6 and say that those --

7 DR. MAURO: Have been resolved.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Those -- that's 

9 over 300 of them have been resolved?

10 CHAIR MUNN: That's up to the 

11 group. In my mind --

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: That would be --

13 CHAIR MUNN: Even though we've 

14 resolved the issue, it's not in a position for 

15 us to turn loose of until -- if they were 

16 addressed in a finding, then that's obviously 

17 closed.

18 If we closed them, then that's 

19 obviously closed, but until the in abeyance 

20 action has taken place, in my mind, they're 

21 still in our lap. We still have to track 

22 them.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I won't argue 

2 with that, but they're not closed, but they 

3 are resolved. I don't know if they're -- but, 

4 again, like you say, Wanda, it's up to the 

5 Subcommittee.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: You would say 

7 65 percent have been closed. No, not closed, 

8 have been resolved.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Right, or 

10 technically resolved.

11 MEMBER GRIFFON: Or conceptually 

12 resolved. I mean, I think that's the problem 

13 I have. We haven't seen anything, you know? 

14 We discussed them and they're in abeyance 

15 until we see the change language. Right?

16 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, so I'm going to 

17 put in 65 percent even though we don't know 

18 what that number is because we haven't checked 

19 it. The number of individual findings totals 

20 538, semicolon, more than 80 percent -- no, 

21 comma, more than 80 percent of which have been 

22 deliberated upon and 65 percent have been 
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1 resolved or closed. Is that what we want to 

2 say?

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: That sounds close. 

4 Number of individual findings was 538, of 

5 which 80 percent have been --

6 CHAIR MUNN: Comma. More than 

7 80 percent of which have been deliberated 

8 upon.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: More than 

10 80 percent have been deliberated upon, and 

11 then another sentence?

12 CHAIR MUNN: And 65 percent have 

13 been resolved or closed. No, if we do it that 

14 way we can alter -- we can do it in one 

15 sentence.

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: I still would 

17 vote for leaving the 65 percent out. I think 

18 that's just confusing things. I would say 

19 50 percent have been closed.

20 CHAIR MUNN: That is what I 

21 originally was going to do.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Are we leaving out 
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1 the 258? Just put the percentage for 

2 simplicity or what? Are we leaving both 

3 numbers out?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I would -- the 

5 issue here is whether we're going to include 

6 the resolved and closed or whether we're going 

7 to use only the word closed. It really still 

8 circles around how you look at matters that 

9 are in abeyance. If you prefer --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, certainly, 

11 the closed part is more definitive. It's a 

12 lower number, but there's no point.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Well, if we want to 

14 say the number of individual findings totals 

15 538, more than 80 percent of which of them 

16 have been deliberated upon and 49 percent have 

17 been closed, then there's no --

18 MR. ELLIOTT: Is that 49 percent 

19 of the total --

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: -- or 49 percent of 

22 the deliberated?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: No.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Of the total.

3 CHAIR MUNN: We can say 49 percent 

4 of the total have been closed.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: Just a friendly 

6 comment, because it could be misinterpreted.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. All right then. 

8 That would make the sentence much shorter and 

9 it would read, the number of individual 

10 findings totals 538, more than 80 percent of 

11 which have been deliberated upon, and 

12 49 percent of the total have been closed.

13 Or we can reverse that order and 

14 say, forty-nine percent have been closed and 

15 more than 80 percent have been deliberated 

16 upon, whichever you choose.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: I would leave it 

18 the way you have it.

19 CHAIR MUNN: All right. I will do 

20 that.

21 DR. MAURO: I hate to throw a 

22 small monkeywrench through this, but is there 
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1 anywhere where we identify the total number of 

2 procedures that are -- that went through the 

3 process or are going through the process?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

5 DR. MAURO: It's in here 

6 somewhere?

7 CHAIR MUNN: It's where the blank 

8 is.

9 DR. MAURO: All right. Okay. 

10 Sorry.

11 CHAIR MUNN: I have not counted 

12 them meticulously. I wanted to make sure. 

13 You cannot tell from the total number of items 

14 we have because some procedures --

15 MR. MARSCHKE: A hundred and five.

16 DR. MAURO: Hundred and five.

17 CHAIR MUNN: I got 108 when I 

18 first counted; 105. Okay.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: There are 105 in 

20 the database.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. That's it 

22 then. The last two sentences then would read, 
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1 the complete group of procedures still 

2 scrutinized totals 105, including revision of 

3 certain procedures when circumstances appear 

4 to require that action.

5 The number of individual findings 

6 totals 538, more than 80 percent of which have 

7 been deliberated upon, and 49 percent of the 

8 total have been closed. Clear enough?

9 I'll send this out one more time, 

10 cleaned up in what I hope would be final 

11 format so that everybody will have -- that 

12 will be Iteration 5 for me. I'll try to get 

13 that out for you yet this week so that you'll 

14 have a chance to look at it.

15 If there is no grief, then may we 

16 present this to the Board as --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: This can be 

18 presented during the working time when you 

19 make your report.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: And it would 

22 become a motion for the Board to approve it.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: I will try to get 

2 that in the hands of the Board prior and once 

3 you've all seen the final copy and said yes, 

4 that's okay with you. I'll send it to all the 

5 Board members so that they will have an 

6 opportunity to read it prior to coming to the 

7 meeting. All right. Very good.

8 MR. KATZ: Tomorrow?

9 CHAIR MUNN: Probably tomorrow. 

10 Tomorrow's going to be my workday here, yes. 

11 That's true. It probably will happen. That 

12 being the case, we are now back to our action 

13 items. We were getting ready to address OTIB14 0051-01, were we not, the carryover, and Stu 

15 said we hadn't done anything with that.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, actually 

17 Elyse sent me a file and we have provided 

18 that.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: She sent it over 

21 lunch and I forwarded it when I got here, so 

22 if you got an email from me in the past 
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1 20 minutes, there's a folder attached to that 

2 email --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is this a regular 

4 or on a --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: This is on your 

6 HHS email.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Oh dear.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Because Elyse sent 

9 it to your regular email. Elyse sent it to 

10 your regular email. Your regular email, Elyse 

11 sent it there.

12 CHAIR MUNN: I have that.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Simply went to 

14 your regular email. I sent it to your HHS.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: That was going to 

17 be my question, Stu. So they're the same 

18 document, right?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Same thing. I 

20 just forwarded what she sent me.

21 MEMBER GRIFFON: Thanks.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Got it.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I sent it to you 

2 guys. I think Elyse and I sent you -- oh, but 

3 no wait a minute. I'm sorry, Steve, I'll 

4 forward it to your email.

5 And on Page 25 is where OTIB-0051 

6 -- -0057, I'm sorry. OTIB-0057 appeared on 

7 Page 25.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: We're doing -0057?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Isn't that what 

10 we're doing?

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I thought we were 

12 doing -0051.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: -0051-01.

14 CHAIR MUNN: -0051.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, then I may 

16 not have -- I may --

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: There's no -0051-

18 01.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: There is no -0051. 

20 Okay.

21 CHAIR MUNN: I have --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: -0051-03, but not 
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1 -0051 --

2 MR. KATZ: Someone on the line has 

3 not muted their phone and we're getting a lot 

4 of static feedback. And if you don't have a 

5 mute button, star six. Wrong phone. Someone 

6 muted their phone, but it didn't fix the 

7 problem.

8 Someone else has their phone 

9 unmuted that's on this line.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. We do have 

11 -0051-03. This name -- I don't know if this 

12 name's been out for the last meeting. This 

13 may have been presented at the last meeting.

14 CHAIR MUNN: I think it was, 

15 actually. I believe I already had a copy of 

16 that in my files. I have no way of knowing 

17 where it's been. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: On -0051-01, -02, 

19 and -03, my note says at the last meeting, 

20 this is August 13, that there was no 

21 information and that they would all three 

22 carry over to the next meeting.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and one has to 

2 do with two areas that lack technical detail 

3 and clarity. Critical experiments facility 

4 mentioned in several places.

5 States the mean missed neutron 

6 dose.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is this -01?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: We don't have 

9 anything on -01 or -02.

10 CHAIR MUNN: -- and I no longer 

11 have -02 on my -- it must be closed because I 

12 --

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know what 

14 happened; -02 was skipped in the numbering 

15 system. I have to go back and check and see 

16 why we don't have a -02.

17 CHAIR MUNN: I don't -- I filtered 

18 my closed ones out. I thought perhaps that 

19 one was closed.

20 But, -03 is OTIB was generally 

21 claimant-favorable in instances of unknown 

22 parameters affecting dose estimates. However, 
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1 there are three situations where uncertain 

2 parameters would lead to an underestimate of 

3 neutron doses that were not identified in the 

4 OTIB, moderated, that is alpha and neutrons, 

5 third parameter needs to be considered and 

6 angular response.

7 And there's NIOSH's new response. 

8 It is a graph with a correction factor on NTA 

9 film.

10 So, SC&A folks, have you seen this 

11 before?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Basically, 

13 we've looked at it. Ron Buchanan has looked 

14 at it, and he's recommending that it be 

15 closed. He finds that the -- this is an issue 

16 of wording and does not affect dose 

17 reconstruction. He recommends it be closed.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Are we in a 

19 condition where we can update the -- can we 

20 update the database?

21 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't think I 

22 can. I cannot. I can try.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. So -- and in 

2 fact, we don't have anything we've done at 

3 this meeting or anything from the last meeting 

4 on this database we're looking at yet, 

5 correct?

6 MR. MARSCHKE: No, some of the 

7 stuff from the last meeting is. They brought 

8 over the database from the Oak Ridge --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: -- computer, so 

11 anything that changed -- that I made on the --

12 at the last meeting is reflected.

13 CHAIR MUNN: I see this one was 

14 updated 8/28, so yes, I guess there's an 

15 update. I don't know where the update went.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: It could be in this 

17 additional response. Basically, there's a PDF 

18 file here under related links and we cannot 

19 open it.

20 CHAIR MUNN: It takes you to this 

21 White Paper, right?

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Supposedly. That's 
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1 the way it's supposed to work, but it --

2 CHAIR MUNN: It's supposed to 

3 work, but we don't have it set up so that it 

4 goes there yet.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Doesn't seem to be 

6 working right.

7 CHAIR MUNN: No, it doesn't.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I would 

9 guess that we didn't make that connection. We 

10 just pulled the data over late yesterday.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I can see basically 

12 there's no subdirectory here where both those 

13 white papers are usually in the subdirectory 

14 under the database --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: We've never pulled 

16 any of those over to our side before so we 

17 didn't have a directory set up.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

19 CHAIR MUNN: So --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: I would --

21 CHAIR MUNN: -- we need to do that 

22 and mark this as closed if that's agreeable 
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1 with the Subcommittee. Mark and Mike, do you 

2 have any objection to closing this based on 

3 what we've just seen?

4 MEMBER GRIFFON: I guess I'm okay 

5 with that one, Wanda. I'm still trying to 

6 find -- I'm having a lot of trouble with this 

7 database, unfortunately, but I'm okay with 

8 that one.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it's not very 

10 clean yet. We're hoping that by some magic 

11 come the middle of November, this will all be 

12 scrubbed and shiny for us.

13 MEMBER GIBSON: I'm okay with it, 

14 too, Wanda.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Then --

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay here.

17 CHAIR MUNN: -- the instruction is 

18 get the link, work out the way for the link to 

19 be working, and call it closed.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Stu, can you close 

21 from your version of the database?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: No. When I open 
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1 it, since you already opened it, I couldn't 

2 get write privileges. I could read-only 

3 since. Certainly, in 2003 Access, the first 

4 person in essentially was able to write it. 

5 When somebody else tries to get 

6 in, they get a read-only, at least that's what 

7 appeared to happen.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Action NIOSH. 

10 The next item we have is incorporation 

11 enclosure data into OTIB-0047-02.

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: Can you repeat 

13 that OTIB number, Wanda?

14 CHAIR MUNN: -0047-02.

15 MEMBER GRIFFON: Thank you.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: That's just a 

17 matter of coming into the database?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: I think -- we 

19 talked about this this morning kind of when we

20 talked about -0047-01, as well. We -- I mean, 

21 the same -- they touch upon many of the same 

22 concerns.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have a note that 

2 we closed it last time.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. It's showing 

4 up as closed; -0047-02 is showing up as 

5 closed.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Is it? Then that 

7 action has been taken care of, right?

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's something 

9 about incorporating enclosure data.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Did we not have --

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically it says -

12 - my note to myself is SFM is to insert Bob 

13 Barton's information here. So, Bob Barton did 

14 a writeup and we had it -- and we have to 

15 insert that in here.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: It was something 

17 about the numbers of people --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: The numbers of 

19 people --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- that were 

21 badged or --

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Badged, yes. There 
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1 was a disagreement between the number -- we 

2 see up at the top there was a disagreement --

3 we had 229 and they had a different -- and 

4 NIOSH was using a different count.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: There were four 

6 people who didn't have badge numbers.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Something along 

8 those lines, but I think they've come to a 

9 meeting of the minds on that.

10 CHAIR MUNN: But it has not yet 

11 gone into the database?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: There needs to be, 

13 if -- see down here where it says SC&A follow14 up, at the last meeting, I made a note to 

15 myself to basically insert --

16 CHAIR MUNN: The data in there.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: -- and get the data 

18 in there, and that's what -- I believe that's 

19 what you said that needs to be updated and I 

20 believe that's what you're referring to.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think so, and 

22 that has not occurred.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: That has not 

2 occurred, yes.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Next item is to have 

4 a response from the tech call on OTIB-0049-01, 

5 and Mark was supposed to be notified of that 

6 tech call. I don't believe he was. Did it 

7 occur?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: The issue here was 

9 that we need to provide a response to Mark's 

10 input on -0049-1, and if we don't know how to 

11 respond. In other words, we don't quite 

12 understand what's owed of us, then we're 

13 supposed to set up a conference call.

14 I don't think that we got to the 

15 point of deciding we don't know how to 

16 respond, so we didn't set up a conference 

17 call.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Which one are we --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: -0049-01.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: The note from last 

21 time is NIOSH was going to first write a 

22 response and then it would be determined 
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1 whether you needed to call for a technical 

2 call.

3 CHAIR MUNN: If we don't have a 

4 response, then --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, there were 

6 more down. There's more below. Tell me to 

7 scroll down when you're done reading.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I don't 

9 believe we've reached --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have another 

11 note here, and I'm trying to interpret it. It 

12 says we are waiting according to NIOSH 

13 response that SC&A needs to first present the 

14 issue to the Subcommittee. Was it not 

15 presented or --

16 CHAIR MUNN: It -- well, the last 

17 date, though, was -- the last date -- well, 

18 that's confusing because SC&A's December 

19 comment and there has not been anything from 

20 NIOSH --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, what was the 

22 issue? I can't remember the issue.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Well, what SC&A's 

2 comment says on the database is following are 

3 examples where SC&A believes that OTIB-0049, 

4 including -01, needs clarification.

5 Then they list the last paragraph 

6 of Section 4 that summarizes how to use the 

7 intake correction factors for equivalent doses 

8 to systemic origins calculated from year-end 

9 monitoring result needs clarification.

10 The example was given as to 

11 chronic intake with five years' monitoring 

12 result. In this case, it's clear that 

13 multiplication factors should be applied to 

14 years six through ten. There are other 

15 situations that need clarification. No 

16 examples or instructions geared to single 

17 intake.

18 On Attachment C of OTIB-0049, it 

19 stated that the intake adjustment was also 

20 evaluated to determine the effect on an acute 

21 intake scenario. There's also this analysis 

22 provided in Figure C-2. While the chronic 
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1 exposure scenario produced adjustment factors 

2 that are fairly consistent throughout the 

3 duration of exposure, the acute exposure 

4 scenario does not, in fact.

5 And go on. We can all read that, 

6 but it's a long, long, long statement there.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Then there was a 

8 NIOSH follow-up on --

9 CHAIR MUNN: Well, the last --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: I believe that 

11 should be 1/20/2009, not 1/20/2008.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, okay. Then 

13 that's why I was confused. I thought the 

14 NIOSH follow-up came from the first -- from 

15 the finding.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Then if you click 

17 on and you see that then there was basically a 

18 second SC&A follow-up on March 9, 2009.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Really? So we have 

20 an incorrect date on the NIOSH follow-up?

21 MR. MARSCHKE: It looks like there 

22 was an incorrect date on the NIOSH follow-up. 
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1 Considering we didn't get -- the NIOSH 

2 initial response, if you look on the, kind of 

3 the left-hand side there, was 10/9/2008.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: So this has got to 

6 be 1/20/2009.

7 CHAIR MUNN: All right. They say 

8 that some corrections will be made.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm looking at the 

10 transcript. This is 8 -- yes, 8/13/09.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: With the date of 

12 our last --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: When we discussed 

14 this.

15 CHAIR MUNN: They said they were 

16 going to rewrite the paragraph. NIOSH will 

17 address these issues once they are identified.

18 Let's see what she said for D.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: This talks about 

20 going back to Joyce --

21 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- for some 
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1 information.

2 CHAIR MUNN: D said -- her D said 

3 there are new issues in relation to 

4 application of the TIB to fecal samples in the 

5 new version of the TIB. OTIB-0049-Rev 01, PC6 1, 2008.

7 Based on the above discussion, 

8 SC&A recommends that the status of this issue 

9 be changed to in progress, which we did. But 

10 then response to that says NIOSH will address 

11 these issues once they are identified.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Are you reading 

13 from the transcript?

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. I'm reading --

15 no, not from the transcript. I'm following --

16 I'm just reading from the database itself.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have a note here 

18 -- I'm trying to get the context out of the 

19 finding, scrolling down here.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Well, what she says 

21 is there are new issues in relation to the 

22 application of the TIB to fecal samples in the 
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1 new version. OTIB-0049, Rev 01, PC-1, 2008, 

2 and NIOSH says to that that they'll address 

3 those once they are identified.

4 So it's not clear to me who has 

5 the action to identify them.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Where do you see 

7 that SC&A -- or NIOSH says that they will 

8 identify it?

9 CHAIR MUNN: The very last thing, 

10 the very last sentence on that.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: NIOSH will -- oh, I 

12 believe --

13 CHAIR MUNN: -- you tell me is the 

14 wrong date. It should be '09. The last thing 

15 they say in response to Joyce's D is NIOSH 

16 will address these issues as they are 

17 identified.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: That's D.

19 CHAIR MUNN: And D is the very 

20 last thing on the SC&A follow-up from 12/5.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, and then 

22 basically, if you look on the next SC&A 
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1 follow-up on March 9, basically for Item D we 

2 say SC&A will supply the new issues in 

3 relation to the application of the TIB to 

4 fecal sample and the new revision of the TIB 

5 if and when requested to do so by the Board.

6 DR. MAURO: Okay, so we basically 

7 move out of the old procedure into a new 

8 revision of the procedure, and I guess the 

9 ground rules were that we need to be 

10 authorized to move ahead because this becomes, 

11 what, a new issue that emerged because there 

12 was a new revision by protocol.

13 You see -- we sort of left your 

14 original -- the old version and now we're 

15 moving into a new version and we only move 

16 forward --

17 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

18 DR. MAURO: -- on a new procedure 

19 if so authorized.

20 CHAIR MUNN: If you are authorized 

21 to do so. So it's our responsibility to 

22 authorize you to do so.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Part of -- this 

2 part of it, I didn't remember talking about 

3 this. This is an email -- I sent you an email 

4 in September that talked to the last meeting, 

5 August 24, to both of you guys, about how much 

6 trouble I'm having sorting out exactly what 

7 are the findings here.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: That's right. I 

9 remember that email.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and it's a 

11 lengthy, convoluted email, and I apologize for 

12 that. I was confused by reading the history 

13 of it. And so maybe now we you go back and 

14 start with that -- not today, but after today 

15 -- look at that and see if we can sort it out 

16 a little better. The fecal one was clearly 

17 something to be done on the next round. 

18 That's off the table, I think, for now, but as 

19 I'm reading Joyce's description, now this is 

20 the adjustment for Super S plutonium, but 

21 rather than do a new model, we just said we're 

22 going to use this empirical dose correction 
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1 factor essentially on Type S in these 

2 circumstances by this amount.

3 Joyce took issue with the 

4 applicability of that in circumstances, and 

5 the particular circumstances of someone who 

6 has two acute exposures separated by a year in 

7 between the sampling only after the exposure.

8 I think she makes some conclusions 

9 about how a dose reconstruction would be done 

10 in that case that we wouldn't necessarily do. 

11 For instance, if we had people with bioassay 

12 here and bioassay there and they had the same 

13 job and there wasn't some evidence that they 

14 got shipped somewhere else, we would expect 

15 them to be chronically exposed through that 

16 whole period.

17 So, I think the manner in which we 

18 do dose reconstructions mitigates her concern 

19 to a large degree, I think. So if, when you 

20 look through this, maybe if you could read it 

21 with that context, we may be able to sort out 

22 a pathway here in what we want to do.
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1 DR. MAURO: So you have -- in 

2 other words, you have a response, a written 

3 response to this --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I have sent to you 

5 two guys --

6 DR. MAURO: We have it.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Just essentially, 

8 help me understand where we need to go this. 

9 I sent that on August 24, and I forgot until I 

10 just came across it.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Here's what's in 

12 the minutes. This is on 0049-01, and this 

13 would be dated 8/13 --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, that meeting.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: That meeting. 

16 Okay. It says -- Steve starts off -- and 

17 Marschke -- it's very long-winded referring to 

18 the finding:

19 Munn: Yes, there's a lot to be 

20 said here. We need to read it carefully.

21 Marschke: A lot of words.

22 Munn: If we are interested in 
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1 discussing it, we need to read it.

2 Ziemer: Who drafted this for 

3 SC&A?

4 Marschke: Joyce. Joyce 

5 Lipsztein.

6 Munn: Okay.

7 Mauro: Steve, is this high fired 

8 plutonium?

9 Marschke: Yes.

10 Mauro: And so it was probably 

11 Joyce.

12 Marschke: Yes, it was Joyce.

13 Mauro: I know she's not available 

14 to us now, but could you send it -- send that 

15 to me from where you are?

16 John, you were on the phone.

17 DR. MAURO: Yes.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Marschke: I 

19 can't.

20 Mauro: You cannot? Okay. I'll 

21 see what I can do to find out. I'm a little 

22 concerned that --
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1 And then Ziemer: Hang on, John. 

2 Stu might be able.

3 Hinnefeld: John, I can send the 

4 file on it. 

5 Anyway, and then Hinnefeld: It's 

6 a long file, a lot of conversations, a bunch 

7 of different findings. They're pretty much in 

8 order.

9 Mauro: Well, I get the feel for 

10 it. It sounds like it might help to wait till 

11 Joyce can help us out.

12 Then I'm skipping down here a 

13 little bit.

14 CHAIR MUNN: I think we went 

15 through all that and then realized that there 

16 needed to be a technical call to sort out what 

17 Stu was saying. How do we approach this? 

18 Where do we go from here?

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: It appears -- I'm 

20 quoting from you now, Wanda. It appears that 

21 SC&A has several points that it would like to 

22 have fleshed out or revised in some way. 
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1 Whether this is the appropriate venue for the 

2 discussion, whether there needs to be a 

3 technical discussion between SC&A and NIOSH, 

4 is not clear to me at this time.

5 Then skipping down, there's a lot 

6 of conversation in between there, so I'm 

7 trying to get to the meat of this, but let's 

8 see, the bottom line is -- Ziemer says she was 

9 -- Joyce was disagreeing that Super S was 

10 applied in those cases.

11 We don't have a disagreement on 

12 how you do this. It wasn't clear to me 

13 whether the issue was whether the examples 

14 were not done right or whether there was a 

15 disagreement on the underlying assumptions.

16 Hinnefeld: I don't think so. I 

17 thought there was an agreement on the 

18 adjustment. 

19 Hinnefeld goes on: I thought that 

20 we had agreed to them that the finding seems 

21 to be that beyond the scenario you have

22 described here, there are other potential 
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1 exposure scenarios that you don't talk about.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: That was Joyce's 

3 issue.

4 DR. MAURO: There were certain 

5 special circumstances --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. You come on, 

7 John. You had quickly read through it, and 

8 you say there's a lot of different scenarios 

9 and go on to describe that. So, that was sort 

10 of the framework for all this.

11 Marschke: I agree with John. I 

12 think basically the concern that Joyce has 

13 raised is multiple independent acute 

14 exposures. And now I'm trying to find the 

15 action.

16 DR. MAURO: Who's got the action?

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do you have 

18 somebody named Siebert on your staff?

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That was on our 

21 staff.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, that's on your 
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1 staff.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Scott Siebert.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Scott? Oh, yes. 

4 Scott.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: ORAU staff.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, Scott had 

7 some input on here and it was fairly long 

8 discussion back and forth. Okay.

9 Munn: We already have a lot of 

10 information under our belt. It's not 

11 incorporated here where we need it, so who has 

12 the action to set up the call?

13 Hinnefeld: Well, I have the 

14 action because, if we feel like we can respond 

15 to this entry without a phone call, we 

16 understand we can go ahead and write a 

17 response.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: That was the note 

19 I had.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: So, we will either 

21 write a response or we will get a hold of SC&A 

22 about phone calls.
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1 Munn: Okay. Very good. That 

2 will complete our action items that we've set 

3 up.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: And so my note was 

5 if we can't figure out how to respond by the 

6 time of the call -- I sent this email first. 

7 On August 24, I sent this email. Look, 

8 here's how I'm reading this and I'm not real 

9 sure.

10 I never proceeded further on the 

11 subsequent phone call.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't think we 

13 ever followed up with a response to your email 

14 either.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: It may not be 

16 respondable; it's very convoluted.

17 DR. MAURO: So, we have right now 

18 material from you that sounds like that --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, my August 24 

20 email, I sent it to your old email address and 

21 not your CDC email, and so I sent it to you, 

22 too.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: I remember it.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: So, we could use 

3 that as the basis of the phone call. I think 

4 we probably all need to read it and refresh, 

5 and of course, I assume you're going to be at 

6 the Advisory Board next week as I am, so next 

7 week now and the following week are not great 

8 for me.

9 DR. MAURO: It sounds like 

10 something that we've got to get -- is this 

11 working, to Joyce, or not, with your response.

12 (Simultaneous speaking.)

13 MR. MARSCHKE: The clarifications 

14 as to what exactly are the issues that we're 

15 having, and so maybe it will have to go to 

16 Joyce, but the first thing is for you and I to 

17 look at it and see whether or not we can 

18 respond to Stu and maybe get on -- maybe just 

19 talk to Stu and figure out if we can figure 

20 out what the issues are.

21 DR. MAURO: So something -- I 

22 mean, getting it down to simplicity, it sounds 
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1 like that there are certain multiple, I guess, 

2 intakes that could occur over some sequence of 

3 time period that represents a scenario that is 

4 troubling to Joyce in terms of, will your fix, 

5 the 1.4 multiplier fix that you have --

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, it's actually 

7 a factor.

8 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry. A factor, 

9 yes. The factor of four fix in that 

10 circumstance work.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

12 DR. MAURO: Now, you have a 

13 response that's back to that says what it 

14 says.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I'm trying to 

16 sort out, and once --

17 DR. MAURO: Tries to sort this out 

18 a little bit.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: But, in 

20 conversation here -- I mean, I don't think I 

21 put this in there, but in conversation here, I 

22 think Joyce is presuming a certain approach to 
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1 what we would do in a dose reconstruction in 

2 that instance where you have a person with an 

3 intake and it's a bioassay.

4 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: No bioassay, 

6 another intake and some bioassay, and in that 

7 circumstance, she says then four may not be 

8 bounding.

9 DR. MAURO: Okay.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: And I said, well, 

11 I'm thinking she's presuming that we would do 

12 that as two -- say two acute intakes with 

13 nothing in between. Whereas, if the person 

14 was a radiological worker, a plutonium 

15 radiological worker in between, they'd get a 

16 chronic in between, as well.

17 DR. MAURO: That may resolve the 

18 issue, so that's really great. So, in effect, 

19 I think I understand, we probably have to move 

20 on this in terms of making sure that Joyce 

21 understands, no, this is what we do.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.
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1 DR. MAURO: We don't do what -- we 

2 don't do it the way you sort of laid it out. 

3 That creates this problem.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

5 DR. MAURO: This is how we do it. 

6 With that information in Joyce's hands, which 

7 I don't believe she has --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: No.

9 DR. MAURO: -- she may very well 

10 go back and say, oh, okay. That's okay now. 

11 I mean, that would be the --

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, that's --

13 DR. MAURO: -- the nice outcome.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: In this 

15 circumstance, the second intake occurs. The 

16 fit of that data would assume that they had 

17 been exposed chronically to some level and 

18 acutely --

19 DR. MAURO: And on top of it.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: -- acutely on top 

21 of it, and so I think it's going to be okay 

22 because of the assumptions we make about 
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1 chronic exposure.

2 DR. MAURO: And so the ball's in 

3 our court, then, at this point. You have 

4 certain questions and clarifications --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Let's just 

6 kind of sort out. Maybe if you guys can go 

7 through this and I'll try to refresh my memory 

8 and we could even talk about it next week and 

9 -- get Steve on the phone next week and talk 

10 about it then.

11 DR. MAURO: Okay.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Is Joyce back already 

13 so that you can ask her?

14 DR. MAURO: Yes, she's back. 

15 She's been in touch with us, yes.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, good.

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, she was away in 

18 New York.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. So, I'm going 

20 to change this from NIOSH action to SC&A 

21 action.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes, we have to -- I 
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1 think since you've delivered something to us 

2 that we haven't acted on, it's -- the ball's 

3 in our court.

4 CHAIR MUNN: And Mark had asked to 

5 be notified when you were going to discuss 

6 that.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: If you have a --

8 DR. MAURO: Yes, we'll take it 

9 from here.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

11 DR. MAURO: We've agreed to what 

12 you want and gave you further discussion or 

13 perhaps just simply send it off to Joyce and 

14 see what she has to say, but we've got the 

15 action.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. Our next 

17 item is for NIOSH to provide a response for 

18 OTIB-0057.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: We sent those. I 

20 don't know what this is talking about.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Were they in the 

22 group you sent out two months ago?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I believe so.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: So there's three 

3 issues with 0057?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Well, we had --

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I think your 

6 response has made it into the database. NIOSH 

7 agrees with the above suggested changes. We 

8 also basically -- and Ron Buchanan has 

9 reviewed the NIOSH initial responses, and 

10 basically, the first one, we recommend the 

11 change to be in abeyance.

12 Since NIOSH agreed to it, the 

13 finding and the -- has agreed to make the 

14 above three above suggested changes to the 

15 OTIB.

16 CHAIR MUNN: So is there any 

17 opposition to changing the status to in 

18 abeyance on -01?

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, that's good.

20 DR. MAURO: This is just language. 

21 Yes, I don't have any problems.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: 0057-02, the OTIB 
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1 is generally claimant-favorable in instances 

2 of unknown parameters affecting dose 

3 estimates. However, one area that lacks 

4 sufficient detailed analysis was the 

5 uncertainty associated with dose assignments.

6 The OTIB suggested uncertainty of 

7 +25 percent does not bound the uncertainties 

8 found in the actual results. In accident 

9 situations an uncertainty in the range of at 

10 least +50 percent is needed to encompass the 

11 feasible doses and to ensure claimant12 favorability.

13 NIOSH came back with a response 

14 along with -- before we commit to reading it -

15 - basically, NIOSH came back with a response 

16 OTIB-0057 presents data that a first collision 

17 dose with neutron and gamma rays for the eight 

18 most highly exposed employees and 

19 23 additional employees who were exposed 

20 within 412 feet of the Y-12 nuclear 

21 criticality accident in 1958.

22 Do you want me to read all this or 
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1 do we read it all ourselves or --

2 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I'm assuming 

3 that you folks have absorbed this and have a 

4 recommendation.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: The recommendation 

6 down at the bottom here is basically this 

7 issue is in progress. The SC&A response --

8 see SC&A's response to finding number three.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Number three below, 

10 okay.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: So, basically, if 

12 we want to keep scrolling down --

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: -- finding number 

15 three was all this and the SC&A response was 

16 this issue is in progress. SC&A agrees that 

17 the use of the dose data from Workers F and G 

18 likely provided the most reliable data from 

19 which to calculate the doses to other workers 

20 located further away, as their exit patterns 

21 would have been similar.

22 SC&A also agrees with NIOSH that 
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1 the exit patterns of Workers B, C, D, E and H 

2 could have been such that they exited towards 

3 the source before exiting away from it.

4 However, if that was the case for 

5 those workers, the dose determined by blood 

6 analysis would have been greater than what 

would be predicted from 1/r2 7 from Workers 

8 F and G dose results.

9 No exit pattern could account for 

10 blood analysis results producing a lower dose 

11 than that projected from Workers F and G using 

1/r2 12 calculations. As previously illustrated, 

13 all five workers, B, C, D, E, and H, dose 

14 determined by blood analysis was less than

that predicted by 1/r2 15 .

16 Then Ron gives a table of 

17 comparison in which he compares the -- I guess 

18 the neutron measured dose --

19 MEMBER GRIFFON: Steve?

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes?

21 MEMBER GRIFFON: Can you tell me 

22 where you're reading from? I mean, I see the 
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1 NIOSH initial response, but I don't see any 

2 rebuttal from SC&A in it.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: We don't have 

4 that. I don't think you have that.

5 MEMBER GRIFFON: Okay.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Steve has it. 

7 It's on the projector.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: This is some of the 

9 stuff I was hoping to get into the database 

10 before the meeting, and for various reasons, I 

11 didn't get the opportunity to do that, and I 

12 apologize to the Subcommittee.

13 Basically, after the table, Ron 

14 continues his -- where'd it go?

15 CHAIR MUNN: Steve has to keep 

16 reading because that's the only source the 

17 rest of us have right now.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: After the table of 

comparing the 1/r2 19 doses to the measured 

20 doses, Ron continues, therefore, apparently, 

21 there was an uncertainty in the initial 

22 position of the workers A through H as listed 
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1 in Table 3-1 of OTIB-0057 for uncertainty in 

2 their dose determined by blood analysis that 

3 resulted in overall uncertainties of greater 

4 than 25 percent for three out of five of the 

5 workers.

6 He's getting that from the table 

where he compares the 1/r2 7 doses to the 

8 measured doses and three of those are greater 

9 than 50 percent.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is the original 

11 finding -- is it dealing with uncertainty or 

12 what?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: The original 

14 finding was dealing with uncertainty. It was 

15 basically --

16 DR. MAURO: Twenty-five versus 50.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: That was finding 

18 number two.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Finding number three 

20 is --

21 MR. MARSCHKE: That was on finding 

22 number two and that's why he referred us back 
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1 to this discussion that we're reading.

2 DR. MAURO: That's the genesis of 

3 it also. Isn't that right?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: And then there's a 

5 finding number three, which basically says 

6 most of this OTIB employs scientifically valid 

7 protocols for reconstructing dose. However, 

8 one area that technically compares validation 

9 was not analyzed and considered.

10 This consists of comparing the 

11 neutron dose results obtained by sodium 

12 analysis at various distances to those 

13 obtained by inverse square of the distance for 

14 the two workers, F and G, at 25 feet, which 

15 were used to estimate the dose to other 

16 workers further away from the accident.

17 Then item number two is the main 

18 concern with this OTIB is that, if the dose is 

19 predicted by use of the inverse square of the 

20 distance method are less than those measured 

21 dose, then the dose is assigned workers that 

22 were non-measured could be underestimates of 
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1 the actual doses they received.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm not sure how 

3 well the inverse square applies in this case 

4 anyway. They're in a closed room. The

5 neutrons are bouncing all over the place 

6 anyway, so how well would you depend on 

7 inverse square in this case?

8 I mean, it's got to be much worse 

9 than it would for the gamma source. Have they 

10 added in the gamma to this, gamma plus 

11 neutron?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: The doses he's 

13 reporting are the neutron dose from the --

14 right. He's doing the study and he's 

comparing the sodium activation in T2 15 to the 

16 sodium activation for the neutron dose.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, the sodium 

18 activation would be a component of the neutron 

19 dose.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: The thermal 

22 content: most of the dose --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I would -- well, 

2 there was --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: It's in a liquid.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it was 

5 moderated.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: It was moderated 

7 to start with. Did he include the mock-up 

8 stuff in his table rate? He had some --

9 they're using these mock-ups independently --

10 they had a mock-up of the thing.

11 I don't see the results of the 

12 mock-up there. It probably doesn't make it 

13 more certain of understanding what they 

14 would've calculated based on the mark-ups.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know, 

16 sitting here, what would -- I'm sure a lot of 

17 the information would be contemporary 

18 information generated in the investigation of 

19 this accident certainly into the site to dose 

20 estimate.

21 I'm not -- I think they just did 

22 the nearest eight or so. I don't know that 
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1 they did those sort of -- try to do that sort 

2 of reconstruction dose for people who were 

3 farther away.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: No. If they did, 

5 I didn't find them.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, you would 

7 know more than I. You were probably doing 

8 them, right?

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: No. I haven't 

10 done that.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: That would've been 

12 fun, though.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: I was in the next 

14 building. I may be conflicted on this one.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: You might, but --

16 so I suspect that this relies on information 

17 from --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, they said 

19 something about --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, I was just 

21 reading that. There was something in here 

22 about the burrows, but I'm not -- it just says 
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1 more of what the adjustment factors for humans 

2 were versus the burrow.

3 COURT REPORTER: Can we just pause 

4 for a second?

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: It looks like they 

6 found an uncertainty between the -- let's see, 

7 is that between the flood and the dose from 

8 the boilers was 20 percent? The first9 collision dose is basically a faster time, 

10 though.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, but the --

13 that moderates the neutron when you get some 

14 activation.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, anyway --

17 well, we can't do anything with this today. 

18 We haven't even officially got it.

19 CHAIR MUNN: No, I don't see that 

20 we can.

21 DR. MAURO: Would you want to try 

22 to get Ron on the phone, tell a story, if that 
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1 will help clarify what the -- I mean, it's a 

2 long story here --

3 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I think it'd be 

4 better --

5 DR. MAURO: -- a lot of work.

6 CHAIR MUNN: It would be better to 

7 clarify the story after we've had an 

8 opportunity to read it.

9 DR. MAURO: Okay.

10 CHAIR MUNN: I'm sure this is 

11 doubly puzzling for Mark and Mike. At least 

12 we have something to read here in these long 

13 pauses. They have nothing to read, and since 

14 we haven't had an opportunity to distribute 

15 any of this material so that we can make some 

16 reasonable commentary about it and, again, to 

17 form some judgments, I would suggest that we 

18 carry this one over until next time.

19 We might see -- does Ron have any 

20 final recommendation here on item three?

21 MR. MARSCHKE: I think he starts 

22 the whole discussion off with -- to make it in 
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1 progress.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Which it clearly is 

3 in my mind.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: He basically --

5 CHAIR MUNN: As is item two, 

6 correct?

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

8 CHAIR MUNN: So, item one is in 

9 abeyance. Item two is in progress. Item 

10 three is in progress. We need to see the 

11 material that we have in order for us to 

12 address this at our next session.

13 So, we have three changes to make 

14 to the database, and it's an SC&A action to 

15 forward the material -- forward the current 

16 material to the Board -- I mean, to the 

17 Subcommittee, correct?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Correct.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Bottom line at 

20 this point is SC&A's recommending a greater 

21 uncertainty for those individuals involved in 

22 the accident --
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: That's the -- I 

2 mean, if you look here on Ron's -- it's the 

3 last sentence in his writeup. Basically, 

4 SC&A's major concern is that NIOSH did not 

5 address all the uncertainties for this 

6 accident in deriving the recommended 25-

7 percent uncertainty.

8 So, yes, I think he wants 

9 something greater than 25 --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Not the dose 

11 values but it's uncertainty which would spread 

12 that -- spread the distribution out further, I 

13 guess, is the effect, right?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. Well, I 

15 mean -- yes, it sort of does.

16 DR. MAURO: I'm not sure of this. 

17 The table you are showing, that there might 

18 have been 68 -- in other words, obviously, 

19 he's saying that there seems to be an 

20 incongruity between what you would derive 

based on the 1/r2 21 versus what you would derive 

22 based on the sodium activation. Okay?
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1 Now, that incongruity, I guess, 

2 could be dealt with and one of the ways is 

3 making the uncertainty larger so that you sort 

4 of capture that or you could say, well, hey, 

5 wait a minute. Maybe you've got to change 

6 some numbers.

7 And I guess that's something I'd 

8 like to hear from Ron. The words he uses here 

9 though, we all just read, it sounds like he 

10 feels that maybe we could deal with this issue 

11 by just expanding the size of this 

12 uncertainty. That's the easy fix. That's the 

13 easy fix.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we'll just 

15 need to digest what he said and look back at 

16 some of the original information, as well.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: He does give a list 

18 of references.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: A couple of them 

21 are the --

22 DR. MAURO: You know, normally, 
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1 something like this would be a White Paper, 

2 you know? You know, in other words --

3 CHAIR MUNN: Well, we got a 

4 hotlink, and if this is going to be an 

5 addition to or an appendix to the response to 

6 the White Paper, then this is another one of 

7 those things where the link has to be working 

8 before we can find the data.

9 So, with any luck at all, by next 

10 time we'll have the links working, and this 

11 kind of really deep, thoughtful information 

12 can be referenced properly without putting the 

13 entire document here --

14 DR. MAURO: Putting the whole 

15 thing in the document?

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: It's really a burden 

18 on the document.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is. So --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I would 

21 assume, and again, without going along with 

22 the text here, I would assume that Hurst and 
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1 Ritchie and Emerson would have estimated the 

2 uncertainty in that health physics paper. 

3 That was a big paper that -- and then the 

4 sodium and NaIN must have some analysis of how 

5 well the sodium predicts the dose, so that if

6 there's -- and I'm not sure how much is 

7 relying on the sodium in their dose 

8 predictions -- the guys were wearing 

9 dosimeters, but they may have been beyond the 

10 range of the normal monitoring and what 

11 happens then is all they have is criticality 

12 detectors in there so they can tell who got 

13 the big doses.

14 Those old criticality detectors 

15 were threshold detectors and not all that 

16 useful. You had to be stuck with a strip 

17 hanging down, different kinds of foils and I'm 

18 not sure how well you could -- you could 

19 ballpark a dose for purposes of making sure 

20 you didn't have somebody that was going to get 

21 sick, but I'm not sure how well you could 

22 reconstruct dose.
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1 I think that's why they did the 

2 work with the burrows because they can measure 

3 that. Once they knew the distances and you 

4 simply monitor detection using the burrow, 

5 they could reproduce that.

6 DR. MAURO: This is no small 

7 piece. This is --

8 CHAIR MUNN: No, this is 

9 significant, and for those -- for anyone who 

10 is sincerely interested in the nitty gritty, 

11 you have the references to go back to if you 

12 want, including this, so -- but we have to 

13 have it in hand before we can comment.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: I want to ask a 

15 related question, though. Is there a similar 

16 sort of analysis for the SL-1 accident with 

17 uncertainties and so on?

18 MR. KERR: Excuse me? Could I say 

19 something? This is George Kerr, and I'm --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Hi, George.

21 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I'm 

22 not getting this.
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1 MR. KERR: This is George Kerr. 

2 You can't hear this?

3 COURT REPORTER: No.

4 MR. KERR: The problem is here 

5 that these people were moving around in the 

6 building while the criticality accident went 

7 on, so there is no correlation. That was 

8 their initial position when the criticality 

9 accident happened.

10 And they moved around in the 

11 building in exiting, and the change -- because 

12 one guy ran away from the drum when he saw the 

13 Cherenkov radiation.

14 The other -- there were three 

15 people who didn't know, and they walked toward 

16 the drum, so the problem is, with those people 

17 close in, their distance changed as the 

18 criticality was occurring, so you can't really 

19 correlate with distance.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, they were.

21 MR. KERR: That's where the 

22 fallacy is in what SC&A did. They're trying 
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1 to correlate with distance and you can't do 

2 that. The people were not monitored and the 

3 only reliable indicator of their exposure was 

4 neutron -- sodium activation in the blood.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think that's a 

6 good point. It's not like --

7 MR. KERR: I mean, that's -- and 

8 that's essentially what it stated, and that's 

9 why in an accident, a criticality accident, 

10 you don't even really depend necessarily on 

11 the dosimeters that people were wearing, and 

12 most of these people were not wearing any kind 

13 of dosimeters.

14 So, you had to go with blood 

15 sodium activation. Blood sodium activation is 

16 extremely reliable.

17 DR. MAURO: In fact, I guess I'm a 

18 little disoriented right now because I thought 

19 that the concern was the way in which the 

protocol was written was to use the 1/r2 20

21 approach.

22 MR. KERR: Well, we had to --
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1 DR. MAURO: Not the sodium, 

2 because it was in this table --

3 MR. KERR: Yes, but we didn't have 

4 sodium activation for most of the people. It 

5 was only the people close in who had sodium 

6 activation.

7 DR. MAURO: Okay.

8 MR. KERR: So, at a distance the 

9 only information we had was not -- we had no 

10 sodium activation for the most -- for the ones 

11 who were -- most of the people who were 

12 exposed, and that's the only correlation we 

13 could make, but the movement of the people at 

14 larger distances is not as an important as a 

15 movement of the people close in.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Exactly. A little 

17 distance change goes in and makes a lot of 

difference. I mean, 1/r2 18 . If you're 400 feet 

19 away, it doesn't matter. Good point, George.

20 Well, we need to pursue it 

21 further.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: So let me repeat. As 

2 I understand our action items, SC&A is going 

3 to forward the current material to all of the 

4 Subcommittee. Whoever has access to the 

5 database is going to change the status of all 

6 three of the findings under OTIB-0057, and we 

7 will -- once we all have this material, then 

8 it will be NIOSH and SC&A action to try to 

9 identify whether -- what further action needs 

10 to be done on any of these.

11 We will have it on our agenda for 

12 the next meeting. A great deal, hopefully, 

13 will go on in between.

14 I think we're close enough to the 

15 end of our list we can take a break. We'll be 

16 offline for 15 minutes. Back on at 3:15.

17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off 

18 the record at 2:55 p.m. and 

19 resumed at 3:10 p.m.)

20 CHAIR MUNN: I don't think Mark 

21 would mind our starting off without him 

22 because I'm quite sure he'll catch up as he 
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1 can.

2 The next item that I have on my 

3 list is providing response for PROC-0095. 

4 That was a NIOSH action?

5 MR. HINNEFELD: What is PROC-0095?

6 CHAIR MUNN: That's generating 

7 summary statistics for coworker bioassay data.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I have a 

9 note from the contractor that our responses 

10 will be similar to the OTIB responses, which 

11 is the OTIB it talks about in general terms 

12 about coworkers, but I haven't been able to 

13 pull all this stuff together and see if I 

14 really -- if those responses are applicable or 

15 not, so we don't really have anything to 

16 provide right now.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. It's a carry18 over. Can check for documents, report on 

19 PROC-0097. Why is it still open? Is it 

20 covered in PROC-0012? It's a NIOSH action.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So the 

22 action here would be what, to see whether the 
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1 findings from -0097 are also applicable to -

2 0012 or whether -0012 addressed the findings 

3 of -0097?

4 Because -0097 was the ORAU worker 

5 outreach procedure, but they don't do that 

6 anymore. Yes, ORAU doesn't do worker outreach 

7 anymore, so we wrote PROC-0012, and part of 

8 the findings from -0097 I know were considered 

9 when we wrote -0012.

10 I think that's probably something 

11 that I need to do and haven't done.

12 DR. MAURO: So, what we might have 

13 is -0097 may no longer be needed or used or --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, PROC-0097 is 

15 not used.

16 DR. MAURO: Is not used, and --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: PROC-0012 --

18 DR. MAURO: PROC-0012 is now in 

19 place.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: As I recall, we 

21 had the review of -0097 before we wrote PROC22 0012, and I'm pretty sure we tried to address 
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1 certain of the findings from -0097 in -0012.

2 DR. MAURO: And we've been 

3 authorized to review -0012 under the other 

4 work group -- under the --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Worker outreach?

6 DR. MAURO: -- outreach work 

7 group.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

9 DR. MAURO: So, I don't know what 

10 type of communication -- I see it's on -- is -

11 0012 on this list or no, it's not, it didn't 

12 make it on here?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Twelve would not 

14 be on this list --

15 DR. MAURO: It wouldn't be on 

16 there. Good. Okay.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, one of the 

18 things that is to make sure that any items 

19 that have already been identified would show 

20 up on -0012 carried forward --

21 DR. MAURO: Cover the issues.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- and cover. 
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1 Yes.

2 DR. MAURO: Yes, got it.

3 MEMBER GIBSON: That is part of 

4 what SC&A was supposed to look at when they 

5 looked at -0012, as compared to -0095, or 

6 address it.

7 DR. MAURO: Okay.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: We're good.

9 CHAIR MUNN: So, the question here 

10 is what is -- is there a NIOSH action other 

11 than just identifying that PROC-0012?

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: So -0012 still has 

13 to be reviewed then.

14 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes. We have an 

15 action item and it's under way to review -

16 0012. What I have to say is, though, I didn't 

17 have the presence of mind to say when you do 

18 that, make sure you take a look at the 

19 comments on -0097 to incorporate that into 

20 your consideration.

21 So, I mean, we need to do that. I 

22 have to make sure that happens.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: We have apparently 

2 nine findings here on -0097, probably all of 

3 which should have been covered by -0012, but -

4 -

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, and that'll 

6 be the issue to make sure that they have been.

7 CHAIR MUNN: All right. So this 

8 now will become an SC&A action. Make sure 

9 PROC-0012 --

10 DR. MAURO: Is that PROC or PR-12?

11 MR. HINNEFELD: It would be PR-12.

12 DR. MAURO: PR-12.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It's an OCAS 

14 procedure, so it'd probably be PR-12.

15 DR. MAURO: Good. Good.

16 CHAIR MUNN: All right. All nine 

17 findings. Do we have any feel whether or not 

18 that's an activity that's likely to occur in 

19 the next month?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: What's that?

21 DR. MAURO: The review -- I have 

22 to check. It's under review. It's being done 
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1 by Kathy Demers. I haven't spoken to her 

2 about it. I don't know where she is on that.

3 CHAIR MUNN: You don't have a feel 

4 for where it is.

5 DR. MAURO: So, I don't know where 

6 it is, no.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Can you give us at 

8 least a status for next time?

9 DR. MAURO: I will certainly find 

10 out.

11 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Thank 

12 you. NIOSH responses are needed for OTIB13 0054, OTIB -- I mean, TIB-0013, TIB-0014. 

14 Let's start with -0054.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't have 

16 anything for OTIB-0054. We're still working 

17 on that.

18 For -0013, I've not sent these, 

19 but I have some things I can cover pretty 

20 quickly --

21 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: -- and just for 
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1 discussion purposes and then we'll see what 

2 kind of reaction we get here. Like I said, I 

3 think I can cover them pretty quickly if I can 

4 get that to open.

5 Okay, the first finding is these 

6 paragraphs are not numbered sequentially and 

7 we'll fix that. Our response is okay, we'll 

8 fix that.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: What are we 

10 looking at?

11 MR. HINNEFELD: TIB. It's says 

12 OCAS TIB-0013. Yes, I'll send these 

13 responses. Well, I have to put them in the 

14 database, but essentially, we just say, yes, 

15 that's right. We'll fix that.

16 DR. MAURO: Is that in abeyance or 

17 is that closed?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I would think it 

19 would be in abeyance because we --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, we have to 

21 wait till --

22 DR. MAURO: Right. Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: The second finding 

2 is the attempt to validate the model using 

3 data from radio dosimeters should precede the 

4 conclusions in 3-2 since these conclusions 

5 presuppose the validity of the model and so 

6 we'll reorder those sections.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is just 

8 switching the discussion?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, moving the 

10 discussion. Okay now the list I have, I want 

11 to go from the database now to -- the ordering 

12 that I have on the page I'm looking at doesn't 

13 match the database, so I want to make sure I 

14 open the database.

15 So, number three is it is not 

16 clear that the methodology and parameters --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Say it again, Stu.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: The TIB is not 

19 clear as to the methodology and parameters 

20 assumed in the NIOSH for internal shielding 

21 computer code ATTILA calculation.

22 Force parameters such as average 
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1 worker geometry and particular worker height 

2 and assumed dosimeter position were not 

3 indicated in the description. Our first part 

4 of the response is that ATTILA is not a point 

5 kernel shielding code.

6 It's a multi-group deterministic 

7 radiation transport program that is capable of 

8 modeling complex geometry sufficiently and 

9 accurately to solve large 3D problems.

10 We don't even have a ATTILA 

11 anymore. We let the license expire, but it 

12 was convenient because you could model the 

13 thing on a CAD. You could draw your geometry 

14 on a CAD and it would work from that, so it 

15 would be easy to model geometry. That's why 

16 we chose it; for convenience.

17 The worker geometry is shown in 

18 the figures for each scenario and the list of 

19 the distances and dimensions were provided 

20 apparently outside the -- in a different 

21 communication. I believe we sent those 

22 separately.
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1 The geometry factors obtained in 

2 the ATTILA glove box for OTIB-0010 provide a 

3 reasonable idea of the spread of ratio values 

4 between the upper and lower torso in this TIB. 

5 The geometric mean and standard deviation 

6 glove box are such and such.

7 The spread is based on a Monte 

8 Carlo analysis of 30 different upper and lower 

9 torso points, and since this is only geometry10 dependent, I would expect that it would hold 

11 for this TIB as well.

12 In other words, both the glove box 

13 TIB -- and this is the Mallinckrodt's special 

14 geometry TIB -- both of these are -- were 

15 attempted to reflect the geometry difference 

16 between a source position, a dosimeter on your 

17 upper chest, and the lower torso. So they're 

18 both intended to show the geometry.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes, we've seen that 

20 before. I remember reading that.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: What's the new 

22 program replacing --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, to the 

2 extent we do anything, we run MCNP.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh. Okay.

4 DR. MAURO: I remember the factor 

5 of two.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: So, anyway, that's 

7 kind of it. I think we can provide additional 

8 detail about designs, the perks, and so on, 

9 where we have things in the TIB we put in at 

10 the time.

11 Let's see, then the next finding -

12 - and I don't expect any response on these, 

13 but I will put them in a database.

14 The procedure underestimates the 

15 maximum correction factor to be applied to the 

16 badge reading. Therefore, the procedure does 

17 not provide adequate guidance for defining 

18 claimant-favorable assumptions.

19 Now, in this there was a fairly 

20 extensive MCNP run, work that modeled -- the 

21 dosimeter itself has a little rectangle, solid 

22 rectangle up here and other factors, and 
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1 arrived at a different correction path than 

2 what details of what our analysis arrived at. 

3 Higher, certainly higher than the MCNP

4 analysis that SC&A writes.

5 In my read of this, the issue with 

6 the MCNP, since it was modeled so completely, 

7 it has incorporated not only the geometry 

8 between your torso and a badge, but it's also 

9 modeled angular response of a dosimeter and it 

10 depends on an absolutely vertical dosimeter, 

11 which is -- probably doesn't manifest reality 

12 either.

13 And so it kind of wraps into -- it 

14 combines -- that analysis combines both the 

15 geometry difference and some sort of angular 

16 dependence of the badge if the badge is 

17 exactly perpendicular for the person who wears 

18 it on its chest.

19 DR. MAURO: And that's why you 

20 probably got a bigger difference than we did.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, actually, 

22 you got a bigger difference.
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1 DR. MAURO: We got a bigger 

2 difference?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: So, you --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: We were flush on. 

6 We were up here. You got a bigger 

7 difference.

8 DR. MAURO: Oh.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Between here and 

10 here because you also had a sort of an angular 

11 dependence of the badge because it wasn't 

12 straight, it wasn't directly AP as the model 

13 was set up -- as the MCNP was set up, but 

14 still, like I said, that depends on precisely 

15 vertical TLD.

16 My own view of this now, we've had 

17 some discussions. I think we've got sort of 

18 angular dependance of film badge just sort of 

19 out there. It's at issue, right? So --

20 DR. MAURO: It's been out there 

21 for a while.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And so my 
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1 view is if the angular dependance of the 

2 dosimeter is an issue that needs to be 

3 addressed separate from what we're trying to 

4 do here, which is a geometry.

5 DR. MAURO: It's just simply the 

6 different locations, yes.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, which is 

8 strictly just a geometry thing.

9 DR. MAURO: Right.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: And you can get in 

11 -- I don't want to really get into angular 

12 dependence of dosimeters because that's going 

13 to be a long discussion, but anyway, that's 

14 kind of the nature of our response here is 

15 that we -- the angular dependence of the badge 

16 that is shown by this specific modeling, this 

17 specific MCNP run with an exactly vertical 

18 dosimeter, introduces a factor and therefore 

19 an additional adjustment factor than what 

20 strictly geometry does.

21 And so we would expect it to have 

22 a different number, but we don't really 
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1 consider this to be a critique of something 

2 where we're just trying to show geometry.

3 DR. MAURO: I understand.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Similarly, there 

5 was a bremsstrahlung component added to, I 

6 guess, enhance the overall difference and then 

7 bremsstrahlung wasn't specifically addressed 

8 in the -- in our version, but again, if we 

9 were only dealing with the geometry, the 

10 geometry adjustment should be the same.

11 DR. MAURO: Yes, it shouldn't be 

12 different.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: So you shouldn't 

14 be affected by that, but the dosimeter 

15 response could, in fact, be different.

16 DR. MAURO: Okay.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: So, based on that, 

18 we just felt like for this purpose, for a 

19 geometry purpose here, we felt like the 

20 finding overall included more items than there 

21 needed to be, that we needed to sort out the 

22 badge geometry issue and deal with that as 
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1 sort of a global issue.

2 The next is -- yes, this is, 

3 again, how high is the worker placing the 

4 dosimeter. Some of the assumptions about how 

5 -- we said we will add that to our database.

6 And then the final finding is 

7 OTIB-0013 does not represent scientifically 

8 valid or claimant-favorable approach to 

9 develop a correction factor for organs in the 

10 lower torso. TIB underestimates the CF by a 

11 factor of almost five. That's, again, 

12 compared to that MCNP run.

13 This seems to us to be essentially 

14 a summary of the other findings and we didn't 

15 feel like a separate response was needed. 

16 Once I get this in that, if we want to put 

17 these in progress -- or I think anything we 

18 say like, okay, we're thinking, I would like 

19 to suggest that maybe it would be placed in 

20 abeyance and that anything where we've had a 

21 discussion, be moved to in progress and then 

22 the summary would move to in progress, as 
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1 well, and it remain there until they're all 

2 dispositioned, if that makes sense to be done. 

3 I will provide this shortly.

4 CHAIR MUNN: I think so. That's 

5 fine.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: So we'll just 

7 carry all of these forward.

8 CHAIR MUNN: All six -0013s.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: They're not in the 

10 system right now.

11 DR. MAURO: They're not in the 

12 system.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: We don't have 

14 these responses.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: You did actually 

16 get them just a week ago. You got them in a 

17 track-changes version. I believe I sent them 

18 about a week ago.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: As what? What 

20 were they called?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Let's see.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: There's a 
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1 different sheet --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: It's a file name 

3 that says -- NIOSH initial response is TIB4 0013, October 7, '09. Something like that. I 

5 think I messed up and sent you the track6 changes version.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, yes.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe I sent 

9 you the track-changes version. We have a 

10 clean one which is what I'll actually put in 

11 the database. I also added submissions right 

12 there.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Mike or Mark, do 

15 either of you have any objection to Stu's 

16 suggestion for addressing these six?

17 MEMBER GIBSON: No, I don't think 

18 so.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Fine. We'll look 

20 forward to a nice, squeaky clean set of six 

21 detail sheets next time.

22 DR. MAURO: Are any -- I guess one 
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1 thing I wasn't sure of, are there any aspects 

2 of -- are any of these six something that we 

3 would consider to be in abeyance or recommend 

4 in abeyance?

5 MR. HINNEFELD: There are about 

6 three of them where we said, you're right. 

7 We'll change that.

8 DR. MAURO: Okay.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I think I suggest 

10 --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: The renumbering --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Reordering, 

13 renumbering --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Reordering --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: -- and then the 

16 addition of the specifics about the person's -

17 -

18 DR. MAURO: About the size, right, 

19 and that would be -- okay. Good. Good.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Good. All right. 

21 That takes us --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: TIB-0014 we have 
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1 not provided anything yet. The person who 

2 signed the TIB-0014 was assigned to a couple 

3 of other things, as well, and they are taking 

4 credit for that.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Carry-over. And we 

6 need a NIOSH report on the status of --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: It's the same.

8 CHAIR MUNN: -- same?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Same deal. We 

10 have -- actually, I was thinking of -0010-08 

11 on that last statement I just said. Let me 

12 see what --

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: The TIB-0008 is --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: TIB-0010 is the 

15 glove box TIB, so let's see if I can pull up 

16 TIB-0014 to see which one that is. I might be 

17 able to get a better --

18 CHAIR MUNN: That's the Rocky 

19 Flats internal dosimeter coworker exchange.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, okay. I have 

21 not -- I don't have anything on that. I -- we 

22 are -- it is -- we are working on it.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: All right. So, both 

2 TIB-0010-08, we can't do anything about 

3 closing it you're saying. It says not ready. 

4 Then --0014 is not ready.

5 Now I had one. That gets us to 

6 the end of our action items. I had one action 

7 item as a result -- that I wanted to bring up 

8 as a result of what transpired yesterday in 

9 Paul's work group.

10 A decision was made to transfer 

11 exactly what to us?

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Hold on.

13 CHAIR MUNN: It was not a 

14 procedure that we have on our list yet, 

15 correct?

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is issue six on 

17 our TBD-6000 Findings Matrix, and that has to 

18 do with TBD-70. It has to do with -- in the 

19 use of that ten to the minus six factor 

20 residual activity in clean-up operations. 

21 NIOSH is using a factor of one times ten to 

22 the minus six and SC&A recommended five times 
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1 ten to the minus fifth.

2 It's an issue that is covered by, 

3 I think, TIB-0070, according to my notes.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Is that like a 

5 resuspension factor that you're --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I believe it has 

7 to do with the resuspension. The issue that 

8 is being transferred is not a procedure per 

9 se, but we believe it is covered by TIB-0070, 

10 and the finding in our document is this issue 

11 of the ten to the minus six factor.

12 But since that is an issue in TIB13 0070, we don't want to be resolving it in a 

14 different manner. You're saying, well, since 

15 TIB-0070 is the TIB that talks about these 

16 resuspension factors and so on, we leave it to 

17 the Procedures Review to review that issue and 

18 whatever that finding is that becomes the 

19 finding for our particular issue. We're not 

20 reviewing TIB-0070; we're reviewing a finding 

21 that has to do with an item that is in TIB22 0070.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: So you're --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: We're simply --

3 CHAIR MUNN: You're transferring 

4 your Finding 6.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Our Finding 6, 

6 which is a subset of TIB-0070, but we're not 

7 asking you to do -- so TIB-0070, whatever its 

8 outcome will address our issue, that's the 

9 point.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: This is a TIB and 

12 not an OTIB?

13 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: I said TIB-0070, 

15 but it may have been an OTIB.

16 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB is --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe that is 

18 an OTIB.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Dose reconstruction 

20 during residual radioactivity periods of --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: That's it.

22 CHAIR MUNN: -- employer 
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1 facilities. That's it. That's OTIB-0070. 

2 I'm assuming that you will -- it says --

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: I guess I send a 

4 document, a parallel document, indicating our 

5 issue similar to what you said for the --

6 CHAIR MUNN: That would be ideal.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

8 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Good. 

9 We'll look forward to receiving that with 

10 great joy. Do we have any other issues that 

11 we need to address before I pull together the 

12 next set of action items for us?

13 Anything outstanding? We are 

14 scheduled for our next meeting --

15 MR. KATZ: November 16.

16 CHAIR MUNN: November 17, isn't 

17 it?

18 MR. KATZ: Seventeenth, right.

19 CHAIR MUNN: And we'll be, of 

20 course, here, as usual. With the exception of 

21 the specific copy of the letter to the 

22 Secretary, is there any other specific 
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1 information that you want included in our 

2 report to the full Board next week in 

3 Brookhaven?

4 If not, I will provide that to the 

5 Board as I indicated, and I will plan on 

6 getting the material that I had promised to 

7 you well in advance of the 17th. Please 

8 remember that we have a commitment to review 

9 and get back to SC&A any comments that we have 

10 before the end of October.

11 Anything else?

12 MR. KATZ: So did -- has anything 

13 -- we haven't closed any of the TIBs or other 

14 procedures that we've addressed today, right? 

15 They're all still viable issues for the next 

16 meeting?

17 CHAIR MUNN: Today we have one 

18 closure.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: That was a subset 

20 --

21 MR. KATZ: But that's just a 

22 finding that you closed, not a whole --
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, one finding. 

2 One finding.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Finding 1 of OTIB5 0051.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: -0051-03.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: -0051-03.

8 CHAIR MUNN: And -0051-03. That's 

9 right. With any luck at all, hopefully, those 

10 can be done when the --

11 MR. KATZ: Right.

12 CHAIR MUNN: -- when the database 

13 is more accessible to the folks who work with 

14 it so that, when I ask for final figures for 

15 the Secretary's letter I'll be able to have 

16 access.

17 MR. KATZ: Right, so I'm just 

18 trying to be clear about the agenda for the 

19 Federal Register notice. The agenda is not 

20 going to change except the letter to the 

21 Secretary will come off because you'll have 

22 dealt with that.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

2 MR. KATZ: And do we add to the 

3 agenda this TIB-0070 that's going to be 

4 transferred? Do you think the work group's 

5 going to be ready to deal with it at the next 

6 meeting or is it just on your plate but --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, they may be 

8 already dealing with TIB-0070. We're not 

9 transferring the TIB-0070.

10 MR. KATZ: No, I know. I'm 

11 talking about just that one item from it, but 

12 it's still TIB -- it's an element of TIB-0070 

13 that you're --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Where is TIB-0070 

15 in the scheme of things?

16 CHAIR MUNN: That's a good 

17 question.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Can you tell 

19 whether there's open --

20 MR. KATZ: There are issues for 

21 TIB-0070?

22 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't think that 
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1 we've reviewed TIB-0070. Did we review TIB2 0070?

3 MR. KATZ: I imagine we did, but -

4 -

5 CHAIR MUNN: It's on the list.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: It may be still on 

7 the queue, but --

8 CHAIR MUNN: It's on the list and 

9 for some strange reason, even though I'm on 

10 it, I can't bring up the details on it. It 

11 takes me back to TIB-0014 for some strange 

12 reason. Can you tell, Steve?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I logged off -- I 

14 foolishly logged off the database and now I 

15 have to log back on. So --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: It's listed in the 

17 database. I'll see if I --

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is listed in 

19 the database. The procedures -- and I can't 

20 pull up any details at all for some reason. I 

21 don't know why I can't pull up the details. I 

22 can get to it on the list of procedures, but I 
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1 can't get to it. It won't give me details. 

2 There is something that either I 

3 or the electronics is not doing correctly.

4 MR. KATZ: Okay, so you don't know 

5 whether it's in the queue, but so I'm going to 

6 just assume it's not being added to the items 

7 for the next meeting.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I will be 

9 asking for a status in any case.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, if it hasn't 

11 been reviewed yet --

12 MR. KATZ: No, it's been reviewed 

13 by SC&A.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: There are some 15 

15 findings that are open.

16 MR. KATZ: They're all open, so 

17 you haven't gotten into the --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: We haven't talked 

19 about it yet.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: I wonder if any of 

21 the findings --

22 CHAIR MUNN: They're there.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: -- related to ten to 

2 the minus fifth versus ten to the minus sixth?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I can see 

4 the heading of it is, inconsistent use of 

5 resuspension factor. That's number one. And 

6 NIOSH has recommended resuspension factor ten 

7 minus six per meter is --

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, there and both 

9 eight and nine.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, it's clearly 

11 in that --

12 MR. KATZ: It's in there.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't think it's 

14 any more work.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, it's something 

16 you were going to do anyway. We're just 

17 saying that we're not going to do that 

18 separately from this process.

19 MR. KATZ: I don't know where it 

20 is in the queue. That's all.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Well, there's an 

2 interesting one, too, on Finding 12, use of 

3 TBD-6000 for assigning operational air 

4 concentrations. That's -- and -6001 for 

5 determining inhalation. There -- yes, they're 

6 definitely in there.

7 MR. KATZ: Are we adding any 

8 agenda items for the next meeting is really 

9 the question I'm trying to get to because --

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I understand 

11 that, and Stu, is there any possibility that 

12 we'll have even a status?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I don't 

14 know. Was this reviewed on its own or was 

15 this part of a --

16 MR. MARSCHKE: It looks like it 

17 was reviewed on it's own.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: 8/29/08, so it 

19 hasn't been part of the third set, so it 

20 hasn't been one of the things we picked up.

21 CHAIR MUNN: No, it was one of 

22 those --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I can bump it -- I 

2 can try to bump it ahead of third-set items. 

3 I don't know even then, though -- let's see, 

4 the next meeting is November 17.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: So it's a month 

7 away, and there's a Board meeting intervening. 

8 So, I don't know that we'll have a lot by 

9 November 17, to be honest.

10 MR. KATZ: I don't know that it's 

11 a priority above what you have in the third 

12 set, so that's not -- I'm not suggesting that 

13 you need to bump it up.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Well, it's one of 

16 those things that's going to be a recurring 

17 issue, this whole business of inhalation --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, it's 

19 certainly -- it's more of a sightline issue 

20 than some others.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: It's going to show 

22 up in a number of dose reconstructions. When 
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1 the dose reconstructions -- we did the AWE 

2 dose reconstructions and the mini site profile 

3 review dose reconstructions, all the time it 

4 comes up in there.

5 MR. KATZ: So it sounds like what 

6 you're saying is maybe it should be a higher 

7 priority than --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: It's pretty 

9 broadly applicable.

10 CHAIR MUNN: I think so. It would 

11 be very helpful if you could get it started so 

12 that we could at least have an initial --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. I hate to 

14 commit to anything in here because I never 

15 know what I'm --

16 MR. KATZ: I know. I can just put 

17 it on the agenda. You may not get to it, but 

18 I can put it on the agenda.

19 CHAIR MUNN: If we don't get to 

20 it, we don't get to it, but it would be nice 

21 to have it on the agenda.

22 MR. KATZ: Right. Okay.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: I would prefer to 

2 have it on it than not because I want to get 

3 at least some notations on the database about 

4 it. Anything else? If not, then we are 

5 adjourned.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

7 matter adjourned at 3:41 p.m.)

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