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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

+ + + + +

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

72nd MEETING

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

OCTOBER 7, 2010

+ + + + +

The meeting convened at 11:00 

a.m., Eastern Standard Time, via 

teleconference, Paul L. Ziemer, Acting Chair, 

presiding.

PRESENT:

PAUL L. ZIEMER, Acting Chair

HENRY ANDERSON, Member

JOSIE BEACH, Member

BRADLEY P. CLAWSON, Member

R. WILLIAM FIELD, Member

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member

RICHARD LEMEN, Member

JAMES E. LOCKEY, Member

WANDA I. MUNN, Member

DAVID B. RICHARDSON, Member

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Member

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Member
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TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

REGISTERED AND/OR PUBLIC COMMENT PARTICIPANTS

ADAMS, NANCY, NIOSH Contractor

BARRIE, TERRIE, ANWAG

HOWELL, EMILY, HHS

HINNEFELD, STU, DCAS

FITZGERALD, JOE, SC&A

KOTSCH, JEFF, DOL

LIN, JENNY, HHS

MCKEEL, DAN

MAKHIJANI, ARJUN, SC&A

MAURO, JOHN, SC&A

NETON, JIM, DCAS

RABINOWITZ, RANDY, Contractor

RUTHERFORD, LaVON, DCAS

SUNDIN, DAVE, DCAS

WADE, LEW, DCAS
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T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Roll Call, Mr. Katz, DFO 4

Welcome, Acting Chair Ziemer 9

Discussion of NIOSH 10-Year Program 

Review, Dr. Wade 10

Reviewing Public Comments to Board,

Mr. Katz, DFO 14

Special Exposure Cohort (SEC) Petition

Status Update - Mr. Rutherford, 

DCAS - Update on petitions to be

presented at the November 2010 Board

meeting 21

Status of DOL Policy Issuance on Use of

Ruttenber Data, Mr. Kotsch, DOL 29

Coordinating DCAS Support of Board

Activities, Acting Chair Ziemer 41

Updates from Work Groups and Subcommittees

(as necessary) WG/SC Chairs 51

Board Correspondence, Acting Chair Ziemer 62

Future Plans/Suggestions for the November

2010 Board Meeting Agenda, All

Members 63

Adjournment

73
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (11:00 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: It's eleven o'clock. 

4 Let's begin. This is Ted Katz. I'm the 

5 Designated Federal Official for the Advisory 

6 Board on Radiation Worker Health. And this is 

7 a teleconference meeting which is -- the 

8 teleconference meetings are primarily to get 

9 us prepared for upcoming face-to-face Board 

10 meetings. We have one in November in Santa 

11 Fe.

12 Let us begin with roll call. Now, 

13 I believe -- Dr. Melius, you're not on the 

14 line, is that correct?

15 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: I just got 

16 an email from him, Ted, and he'll join us 

17 later he hopes.

18 MR. KATZ: Okay. I have that 

19 email too. I just wanted to make certain he 

20 wasn't there. Absent, Dr. Melius. Dr. Ziemer 

21 has volunteered to act as Chair for this 

22 meeting. Let me get us going though with roll 
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1 call of Board Members and others, beginning 

2 with Board Members. We've just heard Dr. 

3 Ziemer, but let's go on down the list with the 

4 rest.

5 MEMBER BEACH: Josie Beach.

6 MEMBER ANDERSON: Henry Anderson.

7 MEMBER GIBSON: Michael Gibson.

8 MEMBER LOCKEY: Jim Lockey.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Wanda Munn.

10 MEMBER FIELD: Bill Field.

11 MEMBER ROESSLER: Gen Roessler.

12 MEMBER RICHARDSON: David 

13 Richardson.

14 MR. KATZ: Okay, I thought I heard 

15 maybe Wanda Munn got trampled by someone else. 

16 Are you on, Wanda?

17 MEMBER MUNN: They wouldn't dare. 

18 Yes.

19 MR. KATZ: Okay. Now I know Bob 

20 Presley probably cannot make it. So -- and I 

21 didn't hear him. I thought Dr. Lemen, Dr. 

22 Poston --
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Dr. Lemen is here.

2 MR. KATZ: Was that Dick?

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes.

4 MR. KATZ: Okay, so we have Dr. 

5 Lemen.

6 MEMBER GIBSON: Ted, this is 

7 Mike. I'm here.

8 MR. KATZ: I heard you, Mike. 

9 I've got you checked off.

10 Do we have Dr. Poston? Okay. I 

11 didn't hear Brad Clawson. Okay. Apparently 

12 no Mr. Clawson, no Dr. Poston, no Mr. Presley, 

13 and no Dr. Melius. Dr. Poston wasn't 

14 expected. Dr. Melius isn't expected right 

15 now. So I think we can get started. Let me 

16 ask everyone who -- on the line -- well, let 

17 me do the rest of the roll call first and then 

18 I'll get to this. 

19 MEMBER CLAWSON: Ted, this is 

20 Brad.

21 MR. KATZ: Okay.

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: I'm the one who 
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1 spoke over Wanda.

2 (Laughter.)

3 MEMBER CLAWSON: Sorry, Wanda. I 

4 dared.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MEMBER MUNN: That's okay. We'll 

7 take care of that later.

8 MR. KATZ: I also want to say I 

9 didn't get Phil Schofield. Phil, are you on?

10 Okay, let me go to the rest of the 

11 roll call. How about NIOSH ORAU Team?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: This is Stu 

13 Hinnefeld from DCAS.

14 DR. NETON: Jim Neton, DCAS.

15 MR. RUTHERFORD: LaVon Rutherford, 

16 DCAS.

17 MR. SUNDIN: Dave Sundin, DCAS.

18 MR. KATZ: Okay. Very good. How 

19 about SC&A Team?

20 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A.

21 MR. FITZGERALD: Joe Fitzgerald, 

22 SC&A.
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1 DR. MAKHIJANI: Arjun Makhijani, 

2 SC&A.

3 MR. KATZ: Very good. How about 

4 other HHS or federal officials or contractors?

5 DR. WADE: This is Lew Wade.

6 MS. HOWELL: This is Emily Howell.

7 MR. KATZ: Emily.

8 MS. HOWELL: Hi. I think I spoke 

9 over Nancy.

10 MS. LIN: This is Jenny with OGC.

11 MR. KOTSCH: Jeff Kotsch, 

12 Department of Labor.

13 MS. RABINOWITZ: Randy Rabinowitz, 

14 contractor.

15 MR. KATZ: Did I hear someone from 

16 DOE?

17 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Phil Schofield, 

18 I'm on the line.

19 MR. KATZ: Great. Glad to have 

20 you, Phil. Moving along, last, but not least, 

21 any members of the public on the line who 

22 would like to be recognized?
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1 DR. McKEEL: This is Dan McKeel.

2 MS. BARRIE: This is Terrie Barrie 

3 with ANWAG.

4 MR. KATZ: Welcome to both of you. 

5 Let me ask everyone when you're not speaking 

6 to the group, mute your phones. If you don't 

7 have a mute button, hit *6. Right now, 

8 there's quite a bit of background noise, so I 

9 imagine a few people are not muted. 

10 And then Paul, it's your agenda.

11 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Thank you 

12 very much, I'll call the meeting to order. I 

13 do want to ask if everyone can hear me. The 

14 line at this end seems very faint. Is anyone 

15 having trouble hearing me? I don't hear any 

16 response. You either didn't hear me or --

17 MR. KATZ: Paul, you're very clear 

18 on this end.

19 DR. MAURO: Paul, this is John. 

20 You're very clear.

21 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay, very 

22 good. Thank you. I assume everyone has a 
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1 copy of the agenda. It was distributed by 

2 email to Board Members and it's been on the 

3 website as well. So we will proceed through 

4 the agenda as it's given in order. Dr. Melius 

5 is unable to be here, at least at the start of 

6 meeting. He may join us later at which point 

7 I'll yield the

8 Chair back to him since he is the official 

9 Chair. But this came up at the last moment 

10 and he did ask me to fill in, so I'm glad to 

11 do that for him.

12 So I do officially welcome 

13 everyone. We appreciate you all being here on 

14 the call this morning. Hopefully, we'll be 

15 able to go through the agenda in a concise 

16 manner. And I don't anticipate that this will 

17 be an extended meeting, but certainly we're 

18 open to any discussion items on these agenda 

19 matters that anyone might have.

20 So thank you for being with us. 

21 We'll begin with, well, the first 

22 item is a discussion of the 10-year review. I 
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1 don't know what remarks Dr. Melius was 

2 intending to make, but I do want to call on 

3 Dr. Wade to give us an update on the status of 

4 that and then see if Board Members have 

5 comments or questions.

6 Dr. Wade, would you kind of give 

7 us a status report?

8 DR. WADE: Can you hear me, Paul?

9 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes.

10 DR. WADE: Very good. The status 

11 report is a little bit different than it's 

12 been before in that as you'll notice at Phase 

13 1 of the review where we're looking at five 

14 issues. Those issues are individual dose 

15 reconstruction, Special Exposure Cohort, 

16 customer service, timing, quality of science 

17 issues. Those pieces have all been completed.

18 You've seen the three pieces that 

19 have been produced by government contractors, 

20 that is the DR piece, the timing piece, and 

21 the Special Exposure Cohort piece. The docket 

22 is open to receive comments on those pieces. 
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1 Those pieces are being modified based upon the 

2 comments we've heard to this point and they 

3 will reappear on the website once they're 

4 modified to reflect the comments that we've 

5 received to this point.

6 There will be a little bit of a 

7 delay in terms of the other three pieces. 

8 That's the quality of science piece and the 

9 customer service piece in that those pieces 

10 were authored by NIOSH employees, not NIOSH 

11 contractors, and therefore, there's a hurdle 

12 that we have to go through in terms of 

13 clearing the NIOSH office through the NIOSH 

14 process and that's underway. As soon as that 

15 hurdle is cleared, those reports will be 

16 distributed to you. They will also appear on 

17 the website. So we're making progress. 

18 I have in my hands all of the 

19 pieces for Phase 1. They're just going 

20 through the various reviews necessary to be 

21 shared as appropriate. So that's my brief 

22 report.
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1 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay, thank 

2 you, Lew. Are there any questions by the 

3 Board Members?

4 I'll just make an additional 

5 comment here or a question perhaps. Lew, I 

6 assume that on those first three pieces, 

7 there's still opportunity for Board Members to 

8 review and comment on those. I, myself, am 

9 working on Randy Rabinowitz's part and have 

10 completed my review. I'm still working on the 

11 comments and still in Nancy Adams's piece as 

12 well. So I assume we're still okay time-wise 

13 on getting those comments in.

14 DR. WADE: Certainly, Paul. And 

15 once the pieces are modified and appear, there 

16 will be an opportunity to comment upon the 

17 modified piece as well. So yes. Board 

18 Members, at your convenience, please.

19 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Other 

20 questions, Board Members?

21 Hearing no questions or comments, 

22 so I'm assuming that we're completed with that 
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1 item.

2 Dr. Wade, any of your other -- I 

3 know Randy is on the line. I didn't hear 

4 whether Nancy was, but any of the other 

5 participants have comments they want to make?

6 DR. WADE: I certainly will let 

7 them speak for themselves.

8 MS. ADAMS: This is Nancy Adams I 

9 have no comments.

10 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Very good. 

11 Let's proceed then. The next item is called 

12 Reviewing Public Comments to the Board and Ted 

13 Katz has the lead on this. As background 

14 material, I might point out that earlier this 

15 fall, I think the date was August -- no, 

16 that's not the right date. In any event, I 

17 guess it was in September, Mr. Katz 

18 distributed the latest set of tracking items 

19 on public comments. So Ted, do you want to 

20 comment on that and take us through any issues 

21 that you want to raise?

22 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Paul. This 
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1 is Ted. In mid-September, I think it was 

2 probably the 15th or thereabouts, I sent to 

3 all the Board Members a sort of new format for 

4 this project we have now of the Board 

5 responding to comments as it wishes, public 

6 comments that are heard during the full face7 to-face Board meetings, be they comments 

8 during the public comment session or during 

9 the other place we get them, during the SEC 

10 sessions, too.

11 I went through public comments at 

12 the last teleconference a quarter ago or two 

13 quarters ago. And in that case I think Jim 

14 and I both felt that that was perhaps not the 

15 best approach. I ran through the comments, 

16 what had been done, how they had been disposed 

17 of in one way or the other by DCAS or by the 

18 Board during the Board meeting in direct 

19 response to the comment and then raised the 

20 opportunity for Board Members to engage on any 

21 of the items that they might, whether they 

22 hadn't been fully responded to or whether they 
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1 had thoughts about the responses to date.

2 So we're going to try to do this a 

3 different way now because I think really it 

4 just felt a little uncomfortable the sort of 

5 the weight of the presentation was on me and I 

6 think it's best for the Board to speak for 

7 itself. So what I've distributed to you is a 

8 tracking document just like we had for the 

9 last session where we went through this, that 

10 is prepared by DCAS and its contractor that 

11 shows all the comments in very summary form, 

12 really, just almost practically titled. And 

13 shows their disposition in terms of those 

14 items that either DCAS responded to 

15 independently, subsequent to the meeting, or 

16 that might have been responded to in real time 

17 during the Board meeting and then those that 

18 had not yet been responded to.

19 So you have that again in one of 

20 the documents I distributed to you in 

21 September. And then to make this, I hope, 

22 easier for you, what I did was broke up that 
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1 tracking sheet and took each comment and then 

2 appended it with the actual transcript of the 

3 dialogue related to that comment, so that you 

4 could see exactly and fully what the comment 

5 was and what response might have been made 

6 during the Board meeting to the comment and 

7 then consider whether there are matters that 

8 are unaddressed that you think the Board ought 

9 to engage in more fully, or whether there's an 

10 item there that DCAS responded to and you 

11 might have advice for DCAS and responding 

12 differently or more fully or what have you.

13 So you have those two documents. 

14 The document with the transcripts, of course, 

15 is quite long because I have all those public 

16 comments, page by page, but I've done it so 

17 that each one is a separate item and should be 

18 easy, at least for you to work with. There 

19 are probably not that many comments that you 

20 would want to engage in. That gives you all 

21 the material in one place. 

22 And then in the November meeting, 
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1 we're planning for Board Members to raise 

2 those comments, just those comments for which 

3 you feel there ought to be more Board

4 discussion. So that's what will happen in 

5 November. At least that's Jim's and my plan 

6 for what would happen in November. And 

7 really, I'm just raising this to you now in 

8 this session so that if you have thoughts 

9 about the presentation of these materials, it 

10 would make them easier for you to work with or 

11 thoughts about the process going forward, you 

12 could raise those. And my hope is to have 

13 both -- I've sent to you the May comments in 

14 this package as I've described it and I 

15 believe DCAS is working on the August comments 

16 and will be presented in a similar -- in the 

17 same format. 

18 So that's where we are with it. 

19 And what I would like to know now is if you 

20 have thoughts about this process or the 

21 presentation, any changes you'd like to see?

22 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Thanks, Ted. 
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1 It's been very helpful, I think, to see these 

2 individual comments addressed and some 

3 followup being done. So that's very helpful.

4 Let me ask now, Board Members, do 

5 you have comments or questions for Ted at this 

6 point?

7 MEMBER ANDERSON: This is Andy. I 

8 think the process presented here should work 

9 well for us. I absolutely agree. It's very 

10 useful to see those comments and then at least 

11 track them to a certain extent.

12 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Thanks, 

13 Andy. It was my impression in reading these 

14 that we probably don't want to get into a 

15 situation where we, in detail, take action on 

16 approving or disapproving every comment, but 

17 rather as you review them, Board Members --

18 this is my own thoughts now and they don't 

19 necessarily represent what we're going to end 

20 up doing -- but it just seems to me that it 

21 would make sense if you see something that 

22 raises a red flag either in the response, if 
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1 you feel it's unresponsive or incorrect, then 

2 you would raise that issue at the follow-up 

3 meeting. Was that your intent, Ted?

4 MR. KATZ: Yes, as well as -- I 

5 mean there may be comments there that haven't 

6 been responded to that you feel should be and 

7 there may be situations where, for example, 

8 DCAS may have responded to it or the Board may 

9 have responded to it in part during that Board 

10 meeting, but you feel like a more robust Board 

11 response is deserved.

12 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Sure, right. 

13 There are a number of them that are labeled 

14 as no response necessary and those are the 

15 ones you're referring to if the Board Members 

16 feel there should be a response?

17 MR. KATZ: Sure.

18 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Those that 

19 were no response is necessary typically are 

20 ones where a comment is made simply for the 

21 record. Okay. Other comments or questions, 

22 Board Members?
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1 MEMBER MUNN: This is Wanda. It 

2 was helpful for me to have the page references 

3 there. I appreciate that.

4 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: From the 

5 transcript.

6 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

7 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes, thank 

8 you. That is helpful, Ted.

9 MR. KATZ: Okay, good.

10 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: It makes the 

11 document a little long, but nonetheless, it 

12 saves us from going back and digging through 

13 those transcripts to try to find the exact 

14 wording.

15 MR. KATZ: Right, you can just 

16 take the tracking document, find those 

17 comments that you have interest in, and then 

18 it's very easy to search it in the longer 

19 document and pull it up.

20 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Right. Any 

21 others?

22 If not, thank you. We'll proceed 
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1 to the next item which is a presentation by 

2 LaVon Rutherford which is an update on the SEC 

3 petition status. 

4 So LaVon, we appreciate hearing 

5 what's coming down the pike.

6 MR. RUTHERFORD: All right, thank 

7 you, Dr. Ziemer. Actually, we plan to present 

8 five SEC Evaluation Reports at the November 

9 meeting. Hangar 481, which is a revision to 

10 an Evaluation Report, we actually, the only 

11 thing that was revised in that Evaluation 

12 Report was a new picture was placed in of the 

13 actual Hangar 481. And we also allowed the 

14 petitioner some time to review all the 

15 documentation that was FOIA'd. That 

16 petitioner has reviewed all that information 

17 and is ready to move forward with discussion.

18 Texas City Chemical, we've revised 

19 our Evaluation Report and that report should 

20 be out within the next couple of weeks. And 

21 we will present that revised evaluation at the 

22 meeting. Simonds Saw and Steel, it's an 83.13 
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1 Petition Evaluation. This report should be 

2 out in a couple of weeks. It is in its final 

3 stages of review now.

4 Linde Ceramics, again another 

5 83.14. It's for a period of the early 

6 operational period 1947 to 1953. We have held 

7 up releasing this Evaluation Report until the 

8 radon tunnel issue, we felt like we had 

9 addressed that. We have a position out on 

10 that radon tunnel exposures and we're ready to 

11 release this Petition Evaluation and that's 

12 coming through now and we anticipate that will 

13 be out within the next few weeks as well and 

14 we will present that one.

15 BWXT, as you may recall, we 

16 recommended two Classes for BWXT, the two 

17 early operational periods. We recommended 

18 those at the July meeting. The Board 

19 concurred with those recommendations and both 

20 Classes have been added.

21 We also committed, at that Board 

22 meeting, to continue our evaluation of the 
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1 later years, the 1985 to 2001. We completed 

2 our evaluation of that period of BWXT and we 

3 will be presenting an 83.14 evaluation 

4 recommending some additional years at BWXT.

5 So again, the five are Hangar 481, 

6 Texas City Chemical, Simonds Saw and Steel, 

7 Linde Ceramics, and BWXT.

8 Also, in my SEC summary update, I 

9 will be presenting our findings of our review 

10 of the SEC Class Definitions. If you recall, 

11 that review is going back from the beginning 

12 of our first Classes that were added under the 

13 rule and looking at how we added those Class 

14 Definitions, the basis for the Class 

15 Definitions and if it would change based on 

16 how we have been recommending Classes today.

17 So again, I will be doing a report 

18 on that as well and that's about it.

19 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay, thank 

20 you, LaVon. Board Members, do you have 

21 questions for LaVon?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Paul, this is Stu 
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1 Hinnefeld. There's one other thing that's not 

2 a new or revised petition, but we'll be 

3 presenting to the Board one more time the GE 

4 Evendale SEC. At least we expect to, isn't 

5 that right, LaVon?

6 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, that is 

7 correct. I apologize about that. That is 

8 actually an update that we will be providing, 

9 based on what information that we have found 

10 through discussions with GE out of the United 

11 Kingdom as well as some additional research 

12 that we've done on-site. 

13 Thanks, Stu, I appreciate that.

14 MEMBER ROESSLER: This is Gen 

15 Roessler. Do I have my mute off?

16 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes, you do, 

17 Gen.

18 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay, LaVon, on 

19 the Linde, you gave the dates quickly, but I 

20 think they are not correct. I was just 

21 looking through my paperwork here. I think 

22 the SEC that we're now working on, I'm the 
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1 Work Group Chair, is 107. And I think the 

2 dates are January 1, 1954 through July 31, 

3 2006.

4 MR. RUTHERFORD: Dr. Roessler, you 

5 are correct. That is for that SEC. What we 

6 are presenting is actually a new Petition 

7 Evaluation that was for the earlier years. If 

8 you remember, we actually have an SEC from the 

9 1942 through 1946 period. This Petition 

10 Evaluation here will cover the 1947 through 

11 1953 period. The reason that we had held up 

12 on this Petition Evaluation was because of the 

13 work on the one that you were speaking to, the 

14 work on the residual period. It was 

15 recognized that the tunnel exposures needed to 

16 be also addressed in this Petition Evaluation 

17 as well. So we held up on releasing this 

18 Petition Evaluation until radon exposures in 

19 the tunnel for that residual period which that 

20 information is used as well in this Petition 

21 Evaluation.

22 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay, when you 
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1 mentioned the tunnels that raised a red flag. 

2 So yes, it's okay. I understand. Thanks.

3 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Other 

4 questions or comments?

5 MEMBER LOCKEY: LaVon, Jim Lockey. 

6 When will you update the General Electric? 

7 Do you have a date on that?

8 MR. RUTHERFORD: We will be doing 

9 that update at the November meeting. Again, 

10 we have had some additional discussion with 

11 GE. We have also done additional data capture 

12 on site and we have had some correspondence 

13 with GE out of the United Kingdom as well.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: This is Stu. We 

15 can provide -- rather than hit the Board with 

16 it cold at the meeting, we can provide a 

17 summary of essentially what we're going to say 

18 in advance. But I don't have a date for that 

19 just yet. Is there a date you need it by?

20 MR. RUTHERFORD: Stu, would that 

21 be a couple of weeks before the meeting?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it should be 
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1 at least a couple of weeks before the meeting.

2 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay, thank you.

3 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay, any 

4 others? I'll throw this out as a general 

5 question, but I think some of these are going 

6 to require then some additional work by the 

7 Board's contractor. For example, we have 

8 revised ERs on Texas City Chemical and Simonds 

9 Saw.

10 MR. RUTHERFORD: Actually, Dr. 

11 Ziemer, the Simonds Saw is not a revision. 

12 It's a first issuance.

13 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Or a first 

14 issuance, okay, yes. I thought you had said 

15 revision, but you're right. That's first 

16 time. 

17 Texas City Chemical though is a 

18 revised, I believe.

19 MR. RUTHERFORD: That is correct.

20 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: And --

21 MR. RUTHERFORD: Hangar 481 is a 

22 revision, but Hangar 481 was never given to 
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1 the Board contractor.

2 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Right.

3 MR. RUTHERFORD: It just is a 

4 reminder. That was one where we held up, or 

5 the Board held up taking action on it until 

6 the petitioner had time to review some FOIA 

7 documents and they've completed that.

8 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Right. So 

9 the revised ERs, like on Texas City Chemical, 

10 is that ready or what's the time table for 

11 that actually being distributed to the Board, 

12 roughly?

13 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, it will be 

14 within the next week and a half. I say week 

15 and a half because it's pretty much ready to 

16 go, but I have to verify it will not require 

17 another DOE ADC review.

18 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Right, and 

19 then the privacy review will follow 

20 immediately so we can get those out to the 

21 petitioners as well.

22 MR. RUTHERFORD: Correct.
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1 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay, thank 

2 you. Certainly, we want to have those all 

3 distributed well in advance of the Board 

4 meeting.

5 Other comments or questions? 

6 Okay, let's proceed then. The next item on 

7 the agenda is the status of the Department of 

8 Labor's, actually, review of the Ruttenber 

9 data and what there -- I guess there's a final 

10 policy issuance? Jeff Kotsch is on the Board 

11 -- or on the phone. Not on the Board, Jeff, 

12 but on the phone. Can you give us a report on 

13 where we stand on that?

14 MR. KOTSCH: Sure, Paul. Good 

15 morning. This will be fairly brief.

16 At the last meeting, I noted that 

17 we would -- we will be using the building data 

18 from what we call the Ruttenber database as 

19 input into the placement of people into the 

20 SEC Class at Rocky Flats, as well as we'll 

21 also use the indications of positive neutron 

22 dose, check those against dose reconstruction 
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1 to determine if they indeed included neutron 

2 dose in their evaluation and if they didn't, 

3 we're working with NIOSH on how we'll resolve 

4 that.

5 I checked with our policy group 

6 yesterday. They are in the final management 

7 review phase of the bulletin that will 

8 basically provide the details of how that --

9 how the use of the Ruttenber database will be 

10 used in putting people into the SEC Class at 

11 Rocky Flats. So I'm hoping -- I can never 

12 predict those things, but we're hoping that 

13 will pop out in the next few weeks and then 

14 I'll let you know because it will be available 

15 to be reviewed.

16 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Thank you 

17 very much, Jeff. I wonder if -- is Mark 

18 Griffon on the line? I know Mark was awaiting 

19 the final disposition on this, but -- at least 

20 the Board will have an opportunity to at least 

21 become informed on what the intent is and how 

22 that database will be used in the placement 
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1 of people at locations on site and how that 

2 plays into the final adjudication of the cases 

3 then.

4 MR. KOTSCH: Right.

5 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Board 

6 Members, any questions on that information or 

7 generally on the Ruttenber data?

8 MEMBER RICHARDSON: This is David 

9 Richardson. Can you hear me?

10 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes. Go 

11 ahead, Dave.

12 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I had asked 

13 this question before and I just want to follow 

14 up some more on it. I have no problem with 

15 bringing in information to help making a 

16 decision. My question was sort of about the 

17 chain of custody of the data.

18 Why aren't you going directly to 

19 the contractor and getting the same 

20 information?

21 MR. KOTSCH: We do get information 

22 from the contractor as well as from NIOSH and 
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1 from a number of other sources. This is just 

2 another piece of data to determine whether --

3 or another piece of information to see if it 

4 provides any additional information.

5 MEMBER RICHARDSON: The 

6 information that Ruttenber got should be the 

7 information that you would get from the 

8 contractor. If it's not, it raises a question 

9 either about something which happened in the 

10 transmission of the data or something which 

11 has changed in the contractor's database since 

12 they transmitted it to Ruttenber. 

13 I'm sort of confused about this 

14 issue. What is there that you want from the 

15 Ruttenber data which you can't obtain from the 

16 Department of Energy or one of their 

17 contractors?

18 MR. KOTSCH: We think we can get 

19 pretty much all that information from the site 

20 data that we have. This is just an additional 

21 check. This is just another piece of 

22 information that we're using. It's been 
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1 offered as a source of information.

2 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I can speak 

3 sadly from my own experience. Whenever you 

4 have more data, you're always finding 

5 contradictory information and how do you 

6 resolve those contradictions? Is there a 

7 priority or a hierarchy to the information?

8 MR. KOTSCH: In this case I don't 

9 know if there's a hierarchy per se between the 

10 Ruttenber and the site, but these things are 

11 done on a case-by-case basis. The evidence is 

12 weighed as far as what the source of it is and 

13 the discrepancies are resolved on a case-by14 case, if there are any.

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I guess I find 

16 that unsatisfying. I would like, a priori, 

17 there to be a procedure in place for when 

18 there's a contradiction to be resolved. 

19 Ideally, you would like to know the origin of 

20 that contradiction. You can go back to hard 

21 copy records and figure out which electronic 

22 file has been -- has had errors introduced 
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1 into it. But on a case-by-case basis really 

2 doesn't tell me anything about what the 

3 principles of what -- how you think the 

4 information has been obtained, been 

5 manipulated, and why you have an expectation 

6 that one is more or less valid than the other?

7 MR. KOTSCH: The way the 

8 compensation program works is we weigh all the 

9 -- in each case, all the evidence is weighed 

10 and determined and if there are 

11 contradictions, those are attempted to be 

12 resolved.

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I believe that 

14 if the Board, I mean, and other people want, 

15 it's not a --

16 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: I'm 

17 wondering, Dave, if we have an opportunity to 

18 see what's in the bulletin which Jeff, I 

19 assume, will explain how you intend to use the 

20 database vis-a-vis the claims. Is that 

21 correct?

22 MR. KOTSCH: Yes. The bulletin 
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1 provides guidance to the claims examiners, to 

2 the field staff on how to use the data, the 

3 information in that database in conjunction 

4 with the other sources of information that 

5 have to place people into the Class.

6 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Certainly, 

7 Dr. Richardson has raised some interesting 

8 points. We do have to keep in mind that, in 

9 reality, our Board doesn't have any sort of 

10 jurisdiction over how the DOL actually carries 

11 out its responsibilities in this regard, but 

12 at least we do have the opportunity once 

13 seeing the bulletin and then the intended use 

14 to at least express concerns, if there are 

15 any, as to how the material is used. 

16 Dave, I would assume that although 

17 we have no official sort of say on this, at 

18 least we could make Jeff and the others at DOL 

19 cognizant of concerns that might be raised. 

20 If I understand correctly, and maybe counsel 

21 can also help on this, but in terms of the 

22 issues that Dr. Richardson has raised, I don't 
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1 know if Emily Howell or others would be able 

2 to at this point give an opinion as to what 

3 our input on that matter might be, but we 

4 could at least discuss it at the next meeting.

5 MEMBER MUNN: This is Wanda. One 

6 of the problems with attempting to put 

7 together procedures for someone else to 

8 follow, and especially given our experience in 

9 this particular program, is the enormous 

10 variance of type of information that's 

11 available from which people can work.

12 The fact that we have a site that 

13 has something like the Ruttenber data does not 

14 give us any assurance that other sites will 

15 have similar kinds of studies which we could 

16 even call for supplementary information. So 

17 it's difficult to see how one can move away 

18 from the individual aspect of how one weighs 

19 the data. It simply is impossible to say that 

20 we all have even nearly the same kind of data 

21 from which to work, even inside certain areas 

22 where we might have additional studies. Some 
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1 people may not have been included in the study 

2 and yet have other data from which dose 

3 reconstruction can work.

4 So due to an enormous variety of 

5 sources of information we have, it would seem 

6 almost impossible to begin to fairly establish 

7 something that would be criterion worthy.

8 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Given that, 

9 however, I think in this specific case, Dr. 

10 Richardson, you can weigh in on this again, 

11 but it seems to me that you're raising the 

12 general question of perhaps consistency on how 

13 things are adjudicated. Clearly, it's done on 

14 a case-by-case basis, but are there some sort 

15 of operational rules that provide the sort of 

16 underlying methodology for how this is done, 

17 even though it is on a case-by-case basis. If 

18 there is a conflict in Ruttenber data versus 

19 say the DOE database, what is it that's done, 

20 what has priority and is there a decision21 making tool so that we don't get different 

22 decisions for the same kinds of differential 
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1 information. But perhaps -- that was what I 

2 was trying to understand.

3 Is that what you were saying, Dr. 

4 Richardson?

5 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, exactly. 

6 It's -- I mean --

7 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: It's a 

8 consistency issue.

9 MEMBER RICHARDSON: It's a 

10 consistency issue and there is -- I mean, when 

11 I -- there's a starting assumption here that 

12 more information is better and that's not 

13 necessarily always the case. I mean here you 

14 have, your expectation is that two data 

15 providers have given you -- they should be 

16 identical information. The type of 

17 information describing Ruttenber collected or 

18 compiled into a database was not information 

19 that you went back and generated de novo. It 

20 was information abstracted from site records.

21 Now, if you got Ruttenber's 

22 compilation, kind of a cache that you did of 
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1 the data, and you got another source, a cache 

2 of the same information, when you have two 

3 sources of it, I think it would be worthwhile 

4 to think about a principle for saying which 

5 one you're going to take as the standard.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: This is Arjun. 

7 May I say something about that last comment?

8 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Sure, Arjun.

9 DR. MAKHIJANI: David, I'm not 

10 sure that Jim Ruttenber's information was all 

11 from records. I think there were interviews 

12 and some new information that was generated, 

13 although this is now from memory of some years 

14 back, having worked with the Board on this 

15 question. We can look into that. There might 

16 be some new information there.

17 MS. HOWELL: Dr. Ziemer?

18 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes.

19 MS. HOWELL: Hi, it's Emily. I 

20 was just going to say, certainly the Board can 

21 inquire of DOL whether or not they have 

22 procedures in place to address consistency 
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1 concerns. If the Board has an opinion that 

2 they can reach without additional work about 

3 the best practices, then those are something 

4 that the Board could potentially include in a 

5 letter to DOL, but once we get kind of beyond 

6 that to further inquiry and then debate about 

7 procedures that DOL might apply, that's kind 

8 of moving outside the scope of this Board's 

9 responsibilities in terms of advising NIOSH. 

10 And of course, any questions or information 

11 that the Board provides to DOL, they're free 

12 to respond to as they see fit. 

13 I mean, obviously, the Ruttenber 

14 data is something that we've been going around 

15 within the Board and with DOL for several 

16 years now. And I think you guys have 

17 outstanding questions, you know, Jeff has been 

18 hearing your concerns and perhaps can address 

19 them, but in terms of advising DOL about how 

20 they should be verifying worker data and 

21 employment, there you get into an area where 

22 really we're kind of moving beyond what the 
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1 Board is intended to do.

2 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Thank you, 

3 Emily, and that certainly was my impression 

4 too, in terms of how we address this kind of 

5 an issue. I think, though, it would be useful 

6 for us, Mr. Katz, to put this on our agenda 

7 for the next meeting at the time when we'll 

8 have presumably the actual bulletin in hand so 

9 we have an understanding of how the Ruttenber 

10 data is being used to adjudicate cases. And I 

11 believe the question that Dr. Richardson 

12 raised is not unlike one we are raising for 

13 ourselves and that is, how do we maintain 

14 consistency in our decision-making processes 

15 throughout this whole program? It's certainly 

16 a useful question to consider, and if there's 

17 no objection, we'll ask that Dr. Melius 

18 include it in the agenda for the next meeting.

19 MR. KATZ: Paul, that's fine. My 

20 only question about this is whether Mark might 

21 not want to have actually the small, the Rocky 

22 Flats Work Group chew on this and any other 
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1 issues they might have prior to it being a 

2 whole Board matter.

3 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Well, that's 

4 certainly appropriate. That's why I asked if 

5 Mark was on the line to react to this. But 

6 certainly it would be his prerogative if he 

7 wants to get his Work Group to take a look at 

8 this prior to the meeting. That's certainly 

9 in order and I assume that you would work with 

10 him on that to at least ask the question as to 

11 whether he wants to do that and maybe to 

12 apprise him of the question that was raised by 

13 Dr. Richardson.

14 MR. KATZ: Right, and I'll do 

15 that. My only question is, I'm acutely aware 

16 of how many Work Group meetings we already 

17 have scheduled prior to that meeting. It may 

18 not be able to be done before.

19 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Understood.

20 MR. KATZ: But we won't lose this 

21 issue one way or the other.

22 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Right, 
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1 right. Okay, any other comments on this? If 

2 not, we'll move to the next item which is an 

3 issue of coordinating activities which 

4 includes coordinating the Work Group and the 

5 Subcommittee issues and the work products of 

6 NIOSH and its contractor and the work products 

7 that come from our Board support contractor as 

8 well. And Dr. Melius was heading this one up, 

9 but I think it's fairly straightforward in 

10 terms of the agenda and that is to take a look 

11 at the documents that we have in hand. And 

12 Ted, you can help us on this.

13 We have several documents that 

14 have been distributed to the Board Members, 

15 one of which was Work Group coordination of 

16 DCAS support tasks. We had one dated in 

17 August and I think we had a more recent one. 

18 In my files here it's dated September 16th 

19 which gives the listing of the Site Profile 

20 reviews that are in hand or when they're 

21 scheduled to be delivered, any Evaluation 

22 Report deliveries, and SEC items and other TBD 
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1 tasks for the various Work Groups and 

2 documents to be delivered and what the 

3 delivery dates are.

4 Does everyone have a copy of that 

5 document? Or anyone that doesn't, let us know. 

6 I believe the date on it was September 16th.

7 Ted, can you speak to this?

8 MR. KATZ: I believe that's right. 

9 That sounds like the right date, yes.

10 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: And I 

11 believe, Ted, you've asked that people let you 

12 know if there are items that need to be added 

13 to this listing. Is that correct?

14 MR. KATZ: Yes, there's two 

15 matters, I think, to be addressed. One is if 

16 you are expecting work products that aren't 

17 showing here, we want to catch those. So 

18 please let me know. For example, Paul sent a 

19 couple items to me earlier today or yesterday, 

20 I think, which I've forwarded to DCAS, but so, 

21 for all of you Work Group Chairs and 

22 Subcommittee Chairs, if there's items that 
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1 you're awaiting and they're not reflected 

2 here, we want to capture them.

3 And then the second main issue 

4 following that is if you see something is 

5 coming up, whether it's an item that's 

6 specifically requested by your Work Group, or 

7 it's, for example, a TBD update, DCAS is 

8 revising a TBD, you weren't aware of it and 

9 you see the dates, then the issue there is 

10 just the timing of that and whether that works 

11 with your schedule for your Work Group. Being 

12 aware of that is one thing, but also if it's a 

13 priority to move something up, then to be able 

14 to let DCAS know that their schedule, it would 

15 be -- if an item could be moved up, it would 

16 improve the work of the Work Group. And DCAS 

17 can then possibly work with some of those 

18 items and reorder them to meet your needs.

19 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: And in fact, 

20 this is very helpful in terms of your actual 

21 scheduling of Work Group times because you 

22 will have an idea of when things will become 
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1 available. If you have White Papers or other 

2 review documents that are being generated, and 

3 you know what the delivery dates are, that's 

4 very helpful in terms of scheduling Work Group 

5 times. I think the document is very helpful 

6 for all the Work Groups.

7 Let me ask if there are comments 

8 or questions on this. Again, it's an 

9 informational item for you.

10 MEMBER CLAWSON: Paul, can you 

11 hear me?

12 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes.

13 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay, I'm sorry, 

14 my mute button isn't working here. 

15 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: This is 

16 Brad, right?

17 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes, this is Brad, 

18 I'm sorry. What date was that sent out 

19 because I'm not -- I'm having --

20 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: I show it as 

21 the 16th of September.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes.
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1 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: And I think 

2 it was called something like Work Group 

3 Coordination for DCAS Tasks or something along 

4 that line.

5 MR. KATZ: Yes, the title is 

6 October Teleconference Item DCAS Coordination.

7 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: DCAS 

8 Coordination, right.

9 MEMBER CLAWSON: Ted, could I just 

10 have you send that to me. I'm not showing it 

11 on my files here.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay, I sent it to both 

13 of your addresses, but I'll send it again.

14 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay, if you 

15 would, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

16 MR. KATZ: No problem.

17 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Is there 

18 anyone else that needs a copy that didn't get 

19 it?

20 MEMBER MUNN: No, I have a copy. 

21 I attempted to print it and that was 

22 disastrous.
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1 MR. KATZ: Wanda, it's impossible 

2 to print. 

3 MEMBER MUNN: It clearly is. I 

4 thought I would print it so that I could go 

5 over it.

6 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Actually, 

7 it's not impossible to print, and I -- if you 

8 just --

9 MEMBER MUNN: You've printed it, 

10 you're telling me?

11 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes. You've 

12 got to go into -- go to your page set-up to 

13 start with, to get the right page set-up and 

14 then you can also adjust what information is 

15 on a page. This is an Excel spreadsheet, I 

16 believe.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

18 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: And what you 

19 want to do is get it so that everything in the 

20 horizontal direction is all on one page.

21 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, and that was 

22 what I was attempting to do and so far have 
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1 not been successful in doing it. And it is 

2 difficult to really --

3 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Offline, 

4 I'll send you some instructions. I had to 

5 fiddle around awhile.

6 MEMBER MUNN: I'll try it again.

7 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: There is an 

8 opportunity in Excel under page set-up to tell 

9 it how -- you can change what the width of 

10 that is.

11 MEMBER MUNN: I'll attempt it 

12 again.

13 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes, get all 

14 the columns on one page.

15 MEMBER MUNN: I guess I was 

16 offering an excuse for not having reviewed it 

17 more thoroughly than I did. But it certainly 

18 appears to be a comprehensive list.

19 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes.

20 MEMBER MUNN: And I can see this 

21 is going to be very helpful for some of us.

22 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Once I get it in a 

2 form where I can read it.

3 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Any other 

4 questions or comments on that item?

5 MEMBER CLAWSON: My question is, 

6 one of the things is like what I've just got 

7 into, I've been told that I will have a 

8 certain file, I'll have a response by a 

9 certain time and then when that time passes, 

10 I'm all of a sudden notified that it's a month 

11 later. I'm just wondering, you know, I guess 

12 I would just expect that the courtesy, if 

13 they're not going to make some of these papers 

14 to us in time that they let us know a little 

15 bit up front instead of the last minute. Is 

16 this going to be possible with this?

17 MR. HINNEFELD: This is Stu. 

18 We'll do that to the extent possible. 

19 Sometimes we don't get word ourselves in a 

20 very timely fashion, so we will try to 

21 incorporate that into our work process to make 

22 sure we get some timely indication of dates 
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1 that may not be met in advance of the actual 

2 date itself.

3 MEMBER CLAWSON: Well, yes. We 

4 were setting up a Work Group on the 

5 understanding that this paper would be to us 

6 by this time and this time came and passed. 

7 Luckily, we had scheduled a Work Group later, 

8 but --

9 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Which Work 

10 Group is that, Brad?

11 MEMBER CLAWSON: Fernald.

12 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Fernald.

13 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay, and so I 

14 just, you know, I hate at the very last minute 

15 to have to cancel a Work Group meeting because 

16 not being notified that something isn't going 

17 to be there or whatever. I want these Work 

18 Groups to be as meaningful as possible.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll try to 

20 establish a process for getting the 

21 information out as quickly as we can.

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay. Well, my 
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1 biggest thing is if there's a change from what 

2 the original agreed-on time was going to be. 

3 We all know that things are going to come up. 

4 It happens to all of us on this, but just to 

5 be notified so that we can make more 

6 arrangements or whatever would be appreciated, 

7 Stu.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we'll give it 

9 a shot. I'm guessing you're talking about 

10 sliding of a couple weeks. You're not talking 

11 about a couple of days, right?

12 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes, this is 

13 sliding a month.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I know. I 

15 think I know what you're talking about.

16 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Well, thank 

17 you. The first thing when you get it is go 

18 through and make sure you're even on there. I 

19 don't even see Fernald on this list.

20 MEMBER CLAWSON: I know. That's 

21 why I was requesting because I wanted to see 

22 kind of how it was responded to, but Ted will 
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1 get that to me and we'll go from there.

2 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: And then 

3 there were some others missing. That's one of 

4 the things I was communicating to Ted. So 

5 take a look. Make sure the facility of 

6 interest is actually on the list and then you 

7 can go from there.

8 MR. KATZ: So everybody, send me -

9 - if we're going to do this individually as 

10 opposed to on the conference call, send me 

11 your concerns. When you look through this 

12 list, you find the items that aren't showing 

13 there. Send them to me and I'll take care of 

14 communicating with folks at DCAS on this.

15 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Any other 

16 comments or questions on this? Okay. Let's 

17 move on then. The next item is updates from 

18 Work Groups and Subcommittees as necessary. 

19 And the "as necessary" part simply means if 

20 you have some particular issue to raise or 

21 item of interest to the Full Board, then you 

22 report that. If you don't, then you can 
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1 simply indicate no report.

2 I might add that for those of the 

3 Work Group Chairs, if the only thing you have 

4 to report is the time of the next Work Group 

5 meeting, that's fine. Just indicate when 

6 you'll be -- when the Work Group meeting is 

7 scheduled and that will be in the record here. 

8 You all should have copies of that 

9 schedule, in any event, but that's fine if 

10 that's your report.

11 So let's go through them, and Ted, 

12 can you do this on a roll call basis and we'll 

13 just take the Work Groups in order?

14 MR. KATZ: Yes, absolutely.

15 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Including 

16 the Subcommittees. Let's do the two 

17 Subcommittees and then we'll do the Work 

18 Groups.

19 MR. KATZ: Okay, well, we don't 

20 have Mark for Dose Reconstruction 

21 Subcommittee, but Wanda?

22 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Well, can we 
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1 ask if anyone from that Subcommittee has -- do 

2 we have anything to report?

3 MR. KATZ: Well, this is Ted. I 

4 can report. We have a meeting scheduled for 

5 November 8th.

6 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay.

7 MR. KATZ: And we will be doing a 

8 number of things including selecting another 

9 set of dose reconstructions, possibly dealing 

10 with selecting dose reconstructions for a PER 

11 review, going over quality assurance issues 

12 that have been raised and the first hundred 

13 dose reconstructions that was reviewed, and 

14 continuing on with the Subcommittee's review 

15 of the eighth and ninth -- seventh, eighth and 

16 hopefully into the ninth sets of dose 

17 reconstructions. That's more or less the 

18 agenda for that meeting.

19 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you, Ted. I 

21 was thinking, goodness, we're doing all kinds 

22 of things in that Subcommittee, but I wasn't 
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1 prepared to report on a thing. And this is 

2 Wanda, the other Subcommittee, the Procedures 

3 Subcommittee. We last met in July. We're 

4 still having some issues with the electronic 

5 database. It's been transferred over to DCAS' 

6 hands, but we have one or two items, 

7 especially our issue of linkage to other 

8 documents so that we don't have to incorporate 

9 full documents into the database itself. 

10 Those things are still being worked on. We're 

11 trying to get those smoothed out.

12 We at our last meeting did 

13 complete our discussion with respect to the 

14 first of the two-page archives that we would 

15 use as sort of a structure to follow or follow 

16 for the summary reviews that are going to be 

17 taking place and placed on the website for the 

18 public to have access to. We presented that 

19 at the last Board meeting and that was 

20 approved in its current form.

21 We're right now discussing with 

22 the Agency how to get that new portion of the 
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1 site ready and get the archived material up 

2 and on it. In the interim, SC&A has provided 

3 the Subcommittee with four more of the two4 pagers for this archived document. 

5 We have been looking at it and 

6 anticipate spending some time with suggestions 

7 on those four at our upcoming Subcommittee 

8 meeting which is scheduled for next week, the 

9 13th, I believe.

10 We've had quite a bit of 

11 discussion about how this database that has 

12 been so valuable to us and has been so 

13 difficult to get up and running will factor 

14 into the use by other Subcommittees and Work 

15 Groups over time. There's some difference of 

16 opinion in the Subcommittee as to how that may 

17 play out, but we ultimately expect at a bare 

18 minimum that the platform itself will be 

19 available and to any and all Work Groups who 

20 want to use that instead of the paper matrix 

21 form which is commonly used by most of the 

22 Work Groups currently.
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1 We're discussing the best method 

2 for having Work Groups report back to us on 

3 actions which Procedures Subcommittee 

4 transfers to the individual Work Group for 

5 resolution of the findings on them.

6 And we have asked NIOSH to take a 

7 closer look at the open items which we are 

8 carrying, many of which have to do with old, 

9 old procedures that were established when we 

10 were first getting up and running which have 

11 been superseded since then and are still being 

12 carried on our list as being open, open 

13 primarily because that procedure is no longer 

14 in use. So we expect to get a report on that 

15 particular item next week. And it's our 

16 intention to have the four new summary reports 

17 available for the Board at the Los Alamos 

18 meeting for them to pass judgment on. That's 

19 about it. 

20 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Wanda. 

21 Let's go then to Work Groups. Blockson I 

22 don't think we need a report for. Brookhaven, 
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1 Josie?

2 MEMBER BEACH: No report there for 

3 me either.

4 MR. KATZ: Thank you. Chapman, I 

5 don't think we need a report. And same goes -

6 - Fernald, Brad?

7 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes, we've got a 

8 Work Group scheduled for November 9th. That's 

9 about it. That's about all I can say there.

10 MR. KATZ: Thank you. The next 

11 one is Hanford, which Dr. Melius chairs. 

12 There's no Work Group scheduled for that at 

13 this point. The next one is INL, Phil is the 

14 Chair.

15 Phil, are you with us?

16 MEMBER MUNN: I don't think so.

17 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Phil was 

18 with us earlier. I wonder if he's on mute 

19 perhaps. Phil, if you're speaking, you're on 

20 mute.

21 MR. KATZ: Okay.

22 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: We can skip 
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1 ahead.

2 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: There I am. I 

3 got it off mute. 

4 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay, Phil, 

5 there you are.

6 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: We have an INL 

7 Work Group meeting November 30th and the 

8 gaseous diffusion plants, December 1st.

9 MR. KATZ: Okay. Thank you, Phil. 

10 He's killed two birds with one stone here. 

11 Lawrence Berkeley, Dr. Ziemer.

12 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: No meeting 

13 scheduled at this time.

14 MR. KATZ: Linde, Dr. Roessler.

15 MEMBER ROESSLER: We're scheduled 

16 to have a Work Group meeting on Thursday, 

17 October 14th at the Cincinnati Airport 

18 Marriott starting at 9 Eastern.

19 MR. KATZ: And the next is Los 

20 Alamos, that's Mark Griffon. We do have a 

21 meeting scheduled for LANL. Let me remind 

22 myself when it is. It's --
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1 MEMBER ROESSLER: The third, Ted, 

2 November 3rd. 

3 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Genevieve.

4 MEMBER ROESSLER: You're welcome.

5 MR. KATZ: Next we have you, 

6 Josie, Mound.

7 MEMBER BEACH: I have no report 

8 for Mound, although we do have a Work Group 

9 meeting. I guess I do have something to say. 

10 November 5th. I just sent an email to Brant 

11 looking for information on where we are with 

12 action items. I'm considering postponing 

13 that, but won't know for a day or two and I'll 

14 let you know, Ted, as soon as I hear back from 

15 Brant.

16 MR. KATZ: That will be good to 

17 know because I have it penciled in for the 

18 November Board meeting.

19 MEMBER BEACH: I'm concerned 

20 because I haven't gotten anything from NIOSH, 

21 so I'm not sure we're going to be ready.

22 MR. KATZ: Let's talk offline, 
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1 maybe later this afternoon, Josie?

2 MEMBER BEACH: Okay. Sounds good.

3 MR. KATZ: The next is, let's see, 

4 Nevada Test Site, there's nothing active 

5 there. Bob is not with us.

6 Pantex plant, Brad?

7 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes, we've got our 

8 tour finally for the end of this month, the 

9 25th. We're going to go down there. We're 

10 going in and touring the Pantex facility.

11 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Brad. 

12 Pinellas, Phil?

13 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: On Pinellas, 

14 we're trying to settle most issues there in 

15 the Mound Work Group. If we can settle them 

16 from Mound that will settle the majority of 

17 issues at Pinellas.

18 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Phil. Dr. 

19 Poston was not on when we started for Piqua. 

20 Are you with us, Dr. Poston? Okay, we do not 

21 have a Work Group scheduled for Piqua at this 

22 point.
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1 Then Rocky Flats is Mark. I just 

2 discussed that earlier. There's no Work Group 

3 scheduled, but maybe they'll take up this 

4 issue of interest from Dr. Richardson and 

5 others once that issuance comes from DOL.

6 Santa Susanna is Mr. Gibson.

7 MEMBER GIBSON: Ted, DCAS is still 

8 working on some stuff and it will probably be 

9 early spring or late winter before we have a 

10 meeting on that.

11 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Mike. 

12 Savannah River site is also Mark. And we are 

13 working on having a teleconference prior to 

14 the Board meeting. It's uncertain that a 

15 couple of you on the Work Groups still need to 

16 respond to me as to whether you can do it, but 

17 it looks like if it will happen, there will be 

18 a teleconference on the 10th of November. So 

19 those of you on the Savannah River site Work 

20 Group if you haven't responded already, let me 

21 know if that date works. It would be a one to 

22 two hour teleconference, that's it. I think 
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1 in the p.m., the afternoon.

2 Next, we have one of Dr. Melius's 

3 Work Groups, SEC Issues. And it is -- he's 

4 working on that. It's unclear when it will 

5 meet. It probably will meet in advance of the 

6 Board meeting.

7 Then we have TBD-6000, Dr. Ziemer.

8 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes, we'll 

9 be meeting next week on Tuesday in Cincinnati. 

10 We have some documents both from NIOSH and 

11 from our contractor to review, as well as some 

12 new information from the petitioner. So that 

13 will take place on Tuesday.

14 MR. KATZ: Thanks, Dr. Ziemer. 

15 And for everybody, we're dealing with GSI.

16 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Yes. General 

17 Steel Industries primarily is the focus at 

18 this point.

19 MR. KATZ: TBD-6001, Dr. Anderson?

20 MEMBER ANDERSON: We have not met. 

21 We have a meeting coming up on November 4th, 

22 or at least we're holding that date. It is 
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1 sort of depending on what additional 

2 information becomes available.

3 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Henry. 

4 Surrogate Data is Dr. Melius. He has not 

5 scheduled a Work Group. I'm not certain 

6 whether there will be a Work Group in advance 

7 of the November Board meeting for that.

8 Weldon Springs, Mr. Gibson.

9 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, Ted. October 

10 19th we have a meeting scheduled for Weldon 

11 Springs and then while I'm on the line, 

12 October 20th for Worker Outreach Work Group.

13 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Mike. That 

14 covers the slate.

15 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay. Very 

16 good. Thank you, Ted. Thank you, Work Group 

17 Chairs.

18 The next item on our agenda is 

19 Board correspondence. I've not been privy to 

20 this. Ted, you'll have to tell us whether or 

21 not there's correspondence that Dr. Melius was 

22 intending to present or was this just a 
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1 general item?

2 MR. KATZ: I don't know that Dr. 

3 Melius was intending to present anything at 

4 this teleconference. We did just very 

5 recently in the last week receive a letter 

6 from Congressman Olson, and according to Board 

7 procedures, that will go before the Board, so 

8 you will get copied on that and it will be an 

9 item for discussion in November.

10 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay. So no 

11 other correspondence that we need to address 

12 at this time?

13 MR. KATZ: No, not at this 

14 meeting.

15 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Then finally 

16 we have suggestions for the November Board 

17 meeting agenda and anyone that has comments --

18 Ted, let me have you lead it off. Do you have 

19 any questions on this? Or can you tell us 

20 anything that -- and would you also talk a 

21 little bit about the Los Alamos tour?

22 MR. KATZ: Sure. Let's start with 
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1 the tour. In advance of the Board meeting on, 

2 I believe it's November 15th, I have not -- I 

3 do not have firm plans from DOE yet. They do 

4 affirm that there will be something, an 

5 overview or tour or both. And it was 

6 discussed that an overview might actually be 

7 more effectively done at the museum. And so 

8 that's one possibility. That probably will 

9 happen.

10 And then the question is whether 

11 there can also be a tour of the site, whether 

12 it's a windshield tour or whether we could 

13 actually go into some facilities and they're 

14 still working that question with the site. So 

15 I don't have a report as to how that will come 

16 out at this point.

17 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: So we don't 

18 know at this point timetable-wise, for 

19 example, a museum tour could readily be done, 

20 I assume, in the afternoon.

21 MR. KATZ: Yes.

22 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Which might 
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1 affect travel for some folks in terms of 

2 whether they leave on Sunday or Monday. So I 

3 guess --

4 MR. KATZ: So my aim would be, if 

5 we're limited to a museum event, would be to 

6 do that in the afternoon so that those who 

7 could come in that morning can. I mean, for 

8 those of us who are more far-flung, we're 

9 going to have to come in on Sunday anyway.

10 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Right.

11 MR. KATZ: But absolutely, I have 

12 that intent.

13 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay, and 

14 then on the agenda itself we know which SEC 

15 petitions are coming up. LaVon has reported 

16 on that. We have agreed to at least include 

17 something about the Ruttenber data and the DOL 

18 documents on the agenda. 

19 Are there other items, Board 

20 Members, that you want to highlight or confirm 

21 that will be on the agenda, particularly 

22 relating to any of your Work Group issues? Is 
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1 there anything to come before the Board? I'm 

2 not aware that any of the Work Groups have 

3 items that they're elevating at this time at 

4 the Board level, but if you do, we need to 

5 make sure they're on the agenda.

6 MEMBER MUNN: This is Wanda, Paul. 

7 I don't mean to highlight it, but it is our 

8 hope from the Procedures Subcommittee to have 

9 the material that SC&A has given us.

10 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Which would 

11 be the next four short documents?

12 MEMBER MUNN: Correct, the next 

13 four summaries. We hope to have those ready 

14 to present to the Board.

15 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Have those in 

16 advance, yes. Right. Okay. Other items, 

17 Board Members?

18 MEMBER CLAWSON: Do we have a --

19 what time we'll end on Thursday plan yet?

20 MR. KATZ: This is Ted. We plan to 

21 end by noon.

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay.
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1 MR. KATZ: On Thursday.

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: So we can try to 

3 get a flight out.

4 MR. KATZ: And right now I will be 

5 sending you shortly, I hope by the end of the 

6 day, an initial draft for you to look at of an 

7 agenda and it's looking like it will be, the 

8 first two days will be quite full.

9 MEMBER CLAWSON: So we sort of 

10 have overflow to Thursday?

11 MR. KATZ: We have a good, long 

12 hardworking day and Thursday a half day.

13 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay. And how do 

14 we get -- what's the best way to get up there? 

15 Are we going to be approved to rent cars, or 

16 --

17 MR. KATZ: You can fly directly 

18 in, if you want. There's connections, I think 

19 you have to go through Dallas-Fort Worth.

20 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay.

21 MR. KATZ: Or you can fly to, for 

22 example, Albuquerque and drive.
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1 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay.

2 MR. KATZ: That reminds me, Zaida 

3 has not heard from most of you. Most of you 

4 have not booked the hotel which is a due date 

5 of this coming Tuesday, so all of you that 

6 haven't proceeded with your travel plans 

7 should probably do that over this weekend. 

8 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Ted, part of 

9 that I think was uncertainty, both on the tour 

10 part and the ending times.

11 MR. KATZ: I understand that. 

12 MEMBER CLAWSON: Ted, also, too, 

13 the hotel is not recognizing anybody arriving 

14 before Monday.

15 MR. KATZ: Well, Zaida can 

16 straighten that out.

17 MEMBER CLAWSON: I know, I just 

18 wanted to mention that.

19 MEMBER ROESSLER: Does anybody 

20 know about, apparently there's a train that 

21 goes from the -- near the Albuquerque airport 

22 on up to downtown Santa Fe. Does anybody have 
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1 any information on that?

2 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: That train 

3 won't work for anybody.

4 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay. That's 

5 good to know.

6 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: It's a commuter 

7 train and the hours are such that it really 

8 doesn't help -- I would strongly recommend 

9 people just flying to Albuquerque, get a 

10 rental car. There's no real taxi service in 

11 Los Alamos for going up there and stuff. So I 

12 think that would be the best bet for people.

13 MEMBER ROESSLER: Okay, thank you, 

14 Phil.

15 MR. KATZ: You can fly right into 

16 Santa Fe.

17 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: You can, yes.

18 MR. KATZ: Is that a problem? I 

19 mean, tell us, Phil, if that's --

20 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: That airport 

21 and some of the flights are usually pretty 

22 small planes and kind of sketchy at times. I 
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1 would still strongly recommend maybe just 

2 flying to Albuquerque and get a rental car.

3 MEMBER LOCKEY: Hey, Brad, you 

4 driving?

5 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes, I'm driving, 

6 so you fly into Santa Fe.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MEMBER LOCKEY: Thanks a lot. Do 

9 you know which way Santa Fe is from 

10 Albuquerque?

11 MEMBER CLAWSON: Yes, I do.

12 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay. Any 

13 other serious comments on the agenda?

14 MEMBER CLAWSON: I was just 

15 wondering if we're going to have time as a 

16 Board to be able to go over some of these

17 conflicts of interest. I've just had a few 

18 things come up.

19 MR. KATZ: We don't have an 

20 administrative session for that, Brad.

21 MEMBER CLAWSON: We will, okay.

22 MR. KATZ: We do not. We do not. 
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1 We do not have an administrative session set 

2 aside. If this opens up because, for example, 

3 Josie said that Mound may not be ready for 

4 this meeting, if we have time open up and we 

5 can set aside an administrative session, but 

6 we don't have one set there right now.

7 MEMBER CLAWSON: I think, 

8 personally, myself, it's something we need to 

9 start addressing. So if we could, it would be 

10 a good thing.

11 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: We can 

12 address that in open session, can't we?

13 MR. KATZ: In February, we have to 

14 do your annual training in any event. In 

15 every year you have to do conflict-of-interest 

16 training, ethics training, I should say. And 

17 so it might be just as well to just leave that 

18 and you can raise your questions in February. 

19 That'll be in Augusta.

20 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay. Because my 

21 problem is I'm losing people that have been 

22 working on my Work Group and I'm just trying 
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1 to understand what's going on here.

2 MR. KATZ: Okay, well, you can 

3 always communicate with me, Brad.

4 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay.

5 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Other 

6 questions pertaining to the agenda?

7 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: One thing I'd 

8 like to kind of see on there is at least a 

9 brief discussion on the length of time it's 

10 taken for some of these worker interviews to 

11 be processed through DOE before they can be 

12 posted. We've got ones from different sites 

13 that are -- they've been with DOE for quite 

14 some time now. 

15

16 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Maybe we can 

17 have that as a subset of the DOE update.

18 MR. KATZ: Right.

19 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Any others? 

20 Thank you, Phil. Any other?

21 Okay, so Ted will be sending out a 

22 preliminary agenda. You'll have an additional 
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1 opportunity at that time, I believe, to, if 

2 something pops into your mind, to ask for that 

3 to be put on the agenda. Is that correct, 

4 Ted?

5 MR. KATZ: Yes, yes. I'll be 

6 sending you an email, I hope this week, with a 

7 draft agenda.

8 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay.

9 MR. KATZ: So please do let me 

10 know if you have suggestions.

11 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: Okay, are 

12 there any other items to come before us? If 

13 not, I believe we'll declare the meeting 

14 adjourned. And thank you all very much.

15 MR. KATZ: Thank you very much, 

16 Paul, for hosting.

17 ACTING CHAIR ZIEMER: You bet. 

18 And we'll see you all in Santa Fe.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

20 matter went off the record at 12:17 p.m.)

21

22