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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

+ + + + +

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

71st MEETING

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

AUGUST 12, 2010

+ + + + +

The meeting convened at 8:30 a.m., 

Mountain Daylight Time, in the Shilo Inn 

Suites Hotel, 780 Lindsay Blvd., Idaho Falls, 

ID, James M. Melius, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

JAMES M. MELIUS, Chairman

HENRY ANDERSON, Member

JOSIE BEACH, Member

BRADLEY P. CLAWSON, Member

R. WILLIAM FIELD, Member*

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member*

MARK GRIFFON, Member

RICHARD LEMEN, Member*

JAMES E. LOCKEY, Member

WANDA I. MUNN, Member

JOHN W. POSTON, SR., Member
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PRESENT: (CONTINUED)

ROBERT W. PRESLEY, Member

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Member

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Member

PAUL L. ZIEMER, Member

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official
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REGISTERED AND/OR PUBLIC COMMENT PARTICIPANTS:

ADAMS, NANCY, NIOSH Contractor

BRADFORD, SHANNON, DCAS

BURGOS, ZAIDA, NIOSH Contractor

CANO, REGINA, DOE

CRAWFORD, CHRIS, DCAS

DARNELL, PETE, DCAS

FITZGERALD, JOE, SC&A

GLOVER, SAM, DCAS

HOWELL, EMILY, HHS

HINNEFELD, STU, DCAS

KOTSCH, JEFF, DOL

LEWIS, GREG, DOE

LIN, JENNY, HHS

MAKHIJANI, ARJUN, SC&A

MCFEE, MATTHEW, ORAU Team

NETON, JIM, DCAS

OSTROW, STEVE, SC&A

PETERSON, SHIRLEY

PRESLEY, LOUISE

RABINOWITZ, RANDY, NIOSH Contractor

RUTHERFORD, LaVON, DCAS

STEARNS, LISA

WADE, LEW, DCAS

*Participating via telephone
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Page

Welcome - Dr. James Melius, Chairman 5

Selection of Cases, Mark Griffon 6

Board Working Time - Dr. James Melius, 41

Chairman

SEC Recommendation Letters

Dose Reconstruction Selection 

Process

Complete SC and WG Reports/WG 

Correspondence

Scheduling:

Teleconference week of:

04/11-15

04/18-22

Meeting week of:

05/16-20

05/23-27

05/31-06/03

Adjournment 69
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:30 a.m.

3 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: We'll get 

4 started now.

5 Ted, do you want to --

6 MR. KATZ: Yes. Good morning, 

7 everyone in the room, and on the line. This 

8 is the third day of our Advisory Board on 

9 Radiation and Worker Health meeting here in 

10 Idaho Falls.

11 Let me check on the lines and see 

12 if I have our Board Members.

13 So, we have Mr. Gibson, are you 

14 with us?

15 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, Ted, I'm 

16 here.

17 MR. KATZ: And Dr. Lemen?

18 MEMBER LEMEN: I'm here.

19 MR. KATZ: And Dr. Field? Dr. 

20 Field? Okay, not present at the moment.

21 And, let me note, everyone in the 

22 room is here except for Dr. Richardson.
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1 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay. We will -

2 - select cases will probably be our first and 

3 our main activity for this morning, so we'll 

4 get started with that, and then we have a 

5 couple of other small items to take care of. 

6 That's all for the agenda this morning.

7 So, Mark?

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I think that 

9 everybody should have a copy, although very 

10 small font, a copy of the -- okay, I didn't 

11 have it, so Stu helped us out here, so I 

12 shouldn't complain, it's a copy of the 13th 

13 set of cases. This is a product from the 

14 Subcommittee, and if you look in the second 

15 column the Xs indicate the ones out of these 

16 50, I think it's 49 or 50, that we looked at 

17 with the additional information provided in 

18 the last three or four columns, the external 

19 dose method, internal dose method, et cetera, 

20 that we thought still should be included in 

21 the set to give SC&A to do for the review.

22 So, this comes as a, I guess as a 
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1 motion or, you know, a selection from the 

2 Subcommittee to the full Board for its 

3 consideration, and then once we -- if we want 

4 to modify anything as a full Board we can, and 

5 those will be tasked to SC&A.

6 So, just going -- you know, I 

7 think it comes out to 30, is that correct? I 

8 didn't count through the Xs.

9 MEMBER BEACH: I did. There's 30.

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: I think there's 

11 30 cases that have the Xs in them that we, as 

12 a Subcommittee, felt were good for 

13 consideration by SC&A.

14 I guess I would just open up the 

15 discussion, if the Board thinks this is fine 

16 as is, or if they have any comments, or want 

17 to add any or delete any, this is the time to 

18 have that discussion.

19 Paul.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Mark, I'm fine 

21 with the list. I did have a question on one 

22 which is not on the list, and just was 
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1 wondering about, and that was -- let me get 

2 the right page number on this version of what 

3 we have, it's on the bottom of the second 

4 page, and it's -- I don't know if we are 

5 allowed to give the case numbers here.

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: Those are unique 

7 numbers.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: You can use these 

9 numbers. Those are selected numbers assigned 

10 strictly to this process.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay, so it's Case 

12 No. 604, the last three digits on it. It's 

13 the bottom of the second page, second from the 

14 bottom. It's a Nevada Test Site case. It's 

15 full internal and external with a Probability 

16 of Causation near 40 percent of thyroid 

17 cancer, and I was wondering why it had been 

18 excluded, unless, perhaps, it might be on the 

19 SEC, and that, I think, we don't really know 

20 at this point. If it ended up being a 

21 reconstruction, which is later removed from 

22 the list.
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1 So, just for the record, I wanted 

2 to raise that question. I guess I would ask 

3 if it is not on the SEC, perhaps, it could be 

4 considered as well.

5 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I just 

6 talked to Paul about this before we started, 

7 and I think, you know, one way we can handle 

8 it, I'm pretty sure it should be -- and we 

9 considered this as the Subcommittee, and every 

10 factor we looked at said this has to be in the 

11 SEC. But we can add it to the list, and then 

12 if it is determined to be in the SEC we can 

13 just, you know, have it not tasked to SC&A. I 

14 think that would be, you know, fine, if 

15 everybody is okay with that we can just add it 

16 for now, and if it ends up being in the SEC it 

17 can be dropped off.

18 MEMBER CLAWSON: That will be 

19 fine.

20 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes, I've got no 

21 problem with that.

22 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Anybody else 
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1 with questions or comments on the proposed 

2 list?

3 Any of the Board Members on the 

4 phone have questions, Dick or Mike?

5 MEMBER LEMEN: I don't have any 

6 questions. This is Dick.

7 MEMBER GIBSON: Jim, this is Mike. 

8 I'm on the Subcommittee, so I helped pick 

9 them out.

10 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay. I just 

11 want to make sure you didn't get outvoted and 

12 had another chance to --

13 Bill Field, are you on the phone 

14 yet?

15 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, no questions.

16 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Oh, okay,

17 thanks, Bill.

18 Yes, just for the record, Bill 

19 Field is present.

20 So, we have a motion from the 

21 Subcommittee.

22 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, a motion 
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1 from the Subcommittee, and I don't know that 

2 it needs a second.

3 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: So, we'll vote. 

4 MEMBER GRIFFON: Roll call or just 

5 a --

6 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes, okay, all 

7 in favor of accepting this list?

8 (Chorus of ayes.)

9 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Opposed? 

10 Abstaining?

11 (No response.)

12 Motion passes. We'll continue. 

13 Mark has some --

14 MEMBER GRIFFON: All right, I'm 

15 just going to -- I committed over a phone call 

16 to do a brief review of our dose 

17 reconstruction selection process, and, 

18 actually, David Richardson had to leave, which 

19 is a little unfortunate because I think he was 

20 the one that was requesting it. So, I can 

21 always go into a little more depth at the next 

22 meeting as well, and I also agreed to talk 
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1 with David, you know, on the side about this.

2 But, I think it might be 

3 worthwhile just for us to spend a few minutes. 

4 I've got some overheads, mainly provided to 

5 me by SC&A, Kathy Behling was nice enough to 

6 pull together some updated statistics for the 

7 first 300 cases. So, it might be useful for 

8 us as a full Board to look back and see how 

9 this has worked out. That's the utility in 

10 this exercise, I think, so I'll just go up to 

11 the slides and walk through this.

12 Okay, so I guess reflecting back 

13 on this, when we thought about how to do this 

14 we at first talked about possibly doing a 

15 random selection from all the cases. 

16 Part of what we ran into was, it 

17 was sort of an uneven process that was 

18 happening. In other words, we didn't have all 

19 the cases concluded, and a full population of 

20 the cases to randomly select from when we 

21 started as a Board. And, in fact, NIOSH, you 

22 know, for efficiency purposes, was often in 
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1 the early days selecting the overestimating or 

2 underestimating cases to clear them off, to do 

3 them quickly, which made a lot of sense.

4 But, from our -- we realized that 

5 a lot of our focus should be on the cases that 

6 were near the border of compensability, and so 

7 randomly selecting from that population that 

8 existed in the beginning didn't make a lot of 

9 sense.

10 So, we sort of evolved into a 

11 stratified approach and not randomly 

12 selecting, basically looking at the cases, 

13 because sometimes the parameters that we 

14 wanted to select from were not easily 

15 retrievable from the database that was being 

16 put together by NIOSH.

17 So, we started with some obvious 

18 factors. First of all, we always -- or we 

19 started with this 2.5 percent review, and that 

20 was based in part on what had been done with 

21 John Till's review of the Veterans Program, 

22 and it seemed like a reasonable number to all 
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1 of us at the time, 2.5 percent of the overall 

2 cases, look at them.

3 And then, we thought at least for 

4 the bigger facilities that number made a lot 

5 of sense, 2.5 percent should be applied even 

6 to big -- like Savannah, or to the big DOE 

7 facilities, we should try to get 2.5 percent 

8 of cases from each of those sites.

9 Where you run into trouble, 

10 obviously, is the smaller AWEs, the numbers of 

11 cases go way down, the availability wasn't 

12 there, especially in the beginning.

13 So, we have sort of -- you know, 

14 we don't always have that 2.5 percent for 

15 those smaller sites. In fact, our goal 

16 presently is to get at least one case from a 

17 lot of those sites, and we've evolved into 

18 this sort of, if we get one case from these 

19 sites we've realized that NIOSH's model is 

20 often a site-wide model, sort of a one -- you 

21 know, they don't have individual dose data, so 

22 it's a one-size-fits-all model. So, if we 
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1 review one case, we are really reviewing all 

2 the cases. The method has been used for all 

3 the cases. So, that's really what we want to 

4 look at, and we don't need to do additional 

5 cases for a lot of those sites.

6 So, certainly, in our selection 

7 process one factor was facility. We also 

8 thought it would be useful to make sure we had 

9 covered a good cross-section of the cancer 

10 models, although sometimes, you know, 

11 reflecting back on this also, it often doesn't 

12 really impact on the dose reconstruction 

13 aspect of it. The cancer model comes into 

14 play, really, when you get into IREP. So, 

15 it's not as big a factor, usually, I guess it 

16 might have some bearing on, like, skin cancers 

17 and things like that, but overall the dose 

18 that's assigned -- you know, it's an organ 

19 dose, and the methods are very similar to get 

20 to the dose aspect of it.

21 The other factor we wanted to look 

22 at was the -- and this has been a very 
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1 important driving factor for us, is the 

2 Probability of Causation category. We started 

3 off, this is -- Kathy pulled this from our 

4 early criteria, we started off looking for 

5 approximately 40 percent of our cases from the 

6 0 to 45 percent range, and then you can see, 

7 45 to 49.9, we wanted a sample of 40 percent 

8 of our overall cases from that area, for 

9 obvious reasons. They are close to the 

10 cutoff, but they weren't compensated. And 

11 then, we wanted 20 percent over 50 percent, 

12 and that has been a useful exercise, to look 

13 at some of the ones that are being 

14 compensated, to make sure that we are not 

15 giving too much -- being too favorable, being 

16 too generous. So, we wanted to look at those 

17 aspects as well.

18 One problem we found in going 

19 through this, now we are up to over 300 cases 

20 that SC&A has done, the Subcommittee hasn't 

21 gotten that far, but over 300 cases, is that 

22 the number of cases available for review in 
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1 the 45 to 50 percent range might fall short of 

2 our overall target. It seems like there's not 

3 as many that fall into that narrow band, so we 

4 may not be able to reach that goal. That's 

5 something we probably want to watch going 

6 forward.

7 Then other factors we had in our 

8 initial criteria was the decade first 

9 employed, and the duration of employment, and 

10 I think, if anything, I've got some follow-up 

11 slides here that show how we've fallen out on 

12 those criteria. Certainly, for obvious 

13 reasons, they are important factors, I think 

14 we've skewed to the longer duration and the 

15 earlier time periods, but we'll see how that 

16 falls out. Arrow key down. I'm hitting the 

17 down arrow key and it's not going down. Okay.

18 The first 300 -- and I'm not sure 

19 why it's 303 cases, but anyway, the first 303 

20 cases, this gives a graphic, and I don't have 

21 it a tabular form, but a graphic, and this is 

22 something Kathy Behling just put together for 
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1 me before this meeting, and I can certainly 

2 email it to everyone to look at further. But, 

3 I think the main take-away point here is that 

4 the 2.5 percent of available cases would be in 

5 the red, and the blue is what we've done so 

6 far. And, even for sites like Hanford, where 

7 we've done a fair amount of cases, we are at 

8 about 35 and the projected would be over 90, I 

9 think, if I'm reading that last bar correctly.

10 Now, other ones, some of the 

11 smaller sites, you can actually see Bridgeport 

12 Brass, you know, we've done four or five 

13 cases, and we were only projected to do one or 

14 two, probably, so we probably overshot a 

15 little bit.

16 But, generally speaking, we are 

17 either under the overall target or right 

18 around the overall target.

19 MEMBER PRESLEY: Mark?

20 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes.

21 MEMBER PRESLEY: Those three cases

22 up there --
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1 MR. KATZ: Bob, can you please 

2 speak into the mic? Thanks.

3 MEMBER PRESLEY: The three cases, 

4 if I remember correctly, we tasked SC&A early 

5 on to do three blind cases.

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I thought 

7 there was two, but --

8 MEMBER PRESLEY: I think it was 

9 three, but I believe that's probably what the 

10 three is, is those three special blind cases.

11 MEMBER GRIFFON: That might be the 

12 difference, yes.

13 All right, and so -- and this is 

14 part two of that, and I was particularly 

15 interested in Savannah River, because every --

16 it seems like lately a lot of our available 

17 cases for review are Savannah River cases.

18 But we've had a lot of claims 

19 filed for Savannah River, obviously, and even 

20 for Savannah River we are up to about 50 cases 

21 that we've reviewed, or at least SC&A has, 

22 that hasn't gone through the Subcommittee 
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1 entirely, but the projection based on 2.5 

2 percent would be over 90. So, we are still 

3 well within -- well within the projections.

4 And again, on this slide, it's 

5 just the rest of the sites, I think it says by 

6 site, part two -- again, our projections are 

7 usually -- or number of cases we've done are 

8 usually below those projected for the 2.5 

9 percent.

10 Now, here is the by decade, and, 

11 you know, the takeaway here, I guess, is in 

12 the 1950s, if anything, we are skewed a little 

13 high toward the 1950s, as far as covering all 

14 the decades. Possibly a little low in the 

15 80s, and the 90s I note that it's only 2 

16 percent, and, you know, I think this is 

17 something we have to look at as in our future 

18 selections, because, while the 50s and 60s may 

19 have a lot more data and in some ways be more 

20 interesting cases to some on the Board, the 

21 80s and 90s, and into the 2000s, gets into a 

22 new era, a clean-up era, a different kind of 
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1 cases, and I think we certainly want to look 

2 at that group of workers and workforce in that 

3 era.

4 So, this is useful to look at, 

5 because it appears that we don't have as many 

6 cases from that time frame.

7 Part of this might be an outcome 

8 of what we've been looking for, which is best 

9 estimate cases, and sometimes in those later 

10 years, when they had lower exposures, they 

11 used overestimating models and things like 

12 that so we don't -- you know, but anyway, just 

13 something to keep in mind as we move forward.

14 And, this is the years, and also, 

15 obviously, look at the greater than 20 years. 

16 We've been looking at the people that have 

17 done, you know, a lot of work at the sites, 

18 more complicated cases, but, you know, I would 

19 argue that that skew is not that bad, and it 

20 makes some sense to look at those cases.

21 You might want to look at the 0 to 

22 1 or 1 to 5 a little more, because there might 
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1 be more workers that were in and out of the 

2 site, short-term projects, things like that. 

3 We don't want to overlook that aspect of DOE 

4 work.

5 This is the risk model, and the 

6 thing that jumped out to me here is the skin 

7 cancers that we've looked at, non-melanoma 

8 skin, that bar seems fairly high for me, in 

9 terms of a balance, and again, I think part of 

10 this is availability of cases. And, sometimes 

11 -- sometimes when we are looking at the 

12 smaller sites, and we just -- we know that 

13 it's a site model, we are not so concerned 

14 that it's a skin cancer, since they are going 

15 to use the same model for any type of cancer. 

16 But, you know, it seems like that's awfully 

17 highly skewed toward skin cancers, and we 

18 might want to keep that in mind as we move 

19 forward in our selection process.

20 Lung cancer, obviously, is another 

21 one that comes out very high. That's no 

22 surprise, and probably appropriate.
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1 And then, for the Probability of 

2 Causation, remember the projections, 20 

3 percent over 50, we are not that far off, 25 

4 percent of the cases have been over 50 

5 percent. We wanted 40 percent in the 0 to 45 

6 percent range, and 40 percent in the 45 to 

7 49.9 percent range. We are a little low on 

8 that 45 to 49.9 percent range, but, like I 

9 said, we've been pretty focused on that as a 

10 criteria, and I think we've picked almost all 

11 the ones that are of interest in that range. 

12 There's just not as many there as, you know, 

13 as we originally thought we'd want to review.

14 So, you know, we've actually 

15 looked, and I think it's kind of evolved to 

16 looking at cases from 40 to 50, so we've 

17 changed that band a little bit. 

18 So, I might ask, we can probably 

19 get a different breakdown on this, but I 

20 expect that a lot of our cases in that 0 to 45 

21 percent range, a lot of them are probably 

22 going to be from 35 or so up, not a lot from 0 
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1 to 35 I don't think. We can break that out 

2 further. We have the numbers.

3 And, that might be it, but I 

4 missed one slide that I wanted to -- I didn't 

5 miss a slide, we just put the wrong version on 

6 here, that's my fault.

7 There was one, after this original 

8 criteria, I did want to mention additional 

9 criteria, and this sort of came up as we were 

10 working through some of these cases and we 

11 realized some of the limitations on selecting 

12 from the database that NIOSH had. And this is 

13 why we are in this process we are now, where 

14 we do this pre-screening step, and we select 

15 ones that look like they are interesting. But 

16 then, we, as you all know on the Board, we get 

17 these additional columns at the end of the 

18 spreadsheet, which includes, I'm going from 

19 memory here, job title, work area, internal 

20 dose method, external dose method, and I think 

21 neutrons, whether neutrons were considered or 

22 not, and whether it was pre- or post-1970. 
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1 And, those factors were things that are not --

2 you can't just select on those from the NIOSH 

3 database, you have to actually open the case 

4 up. So, we do this pre-screening stuff, where 

5 we preselect cases, and then we ask NIOSH to, 

6 out of these 50 in this case, go back and give 

7 us the more in-depth information.

8 Even that is not perfect, as we've 

9 learned, right, Stu, that sometimes when 

10 things say best estimate, best estimate is 

11 checked off, but it might be a site model, 

12 it's not sometimes data, individual data. So, 

13 we've learned some of those things as we've 

14 gone along.

15 Prior to this, we had cases where 

16 best estimate was checked off, but it would 

17 have been sort of a partial best estimate, in 

18 other words, they used the external dosimetry 

19 data and did a best estimate with that, but 

20 then for the internal dose they did a site21 wide model or an over-estimating technique or 

22 something like that. So, it wasn't a full --
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1 sort of full best estimate case, which is what 

2 we were looking for.

3 So, this additional information 

4 helps us. The work area and the job 

5 information certainly came up, I think, in 

6 our Board-wide discussions. Work area is 

7 important at the sites, you know, some of the 

8 larger sites were getting 40, 50, 60 cases, we 

9 would like to see a distribution around the 

10 different work areas on those larger sites.

11 And, the other, for job title, one 

12 obvious thing we want to look at is 

13 construction/non-construction, but I think it 

14 breaks down further than that, it's looking at 

15 administrative-type work versus operations, 

16 versus service, versus construction, breaking 

17 that out a little more and making sure we have 

18 a sort of representative look at all the 

19 different trades that went on at the DOE sites 

20 over the years.

21 I am going to ask SC&A to give us 

22 a breakdown on that, those other criteria. 
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1 I'm not sure how far they can go back with 

2 that, in other words, if they collected that 

3 from the first cases that we did or not, but I 

4 do want to get a breakdown on that so we can 

5 look at that and make sure, for example, that 

6 we are getting enough construction worker 

7 reviews and things like that.

8 So, that's sort of a little 

9 history of how the case selections worked, and 

10 I guess we can discuss it a little.

11 Yes.

12 MEMBER ANDERSON: I mean, this has 

13 occurred over a considerable period of time, 

14 it would be interesting to know how many of 

15 these subsequently became part of an SEC, and 

16 take a look at, you know, the dose 

17 reconstructions, and, you know, what the 

18 review findings were, and then if the person 

19 subsequently -- or, we subsequently determine 

20 some doses couldn't be reconstructed, take a 

21 look at how those compare.

22 Do we have any sense of that? 
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1 Randomly, some of these, I would think, would 

2 have gotten into that.

3 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I'm not 

4 sure. We can probably get those numbers going 

5 back, but I don't think Stu can --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We have not done 

7 that, but, I mean, for the 303, I guess we can 

8 find out. 

9 MEMBER ANDERSON: Yes, I am just 

10 curious.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: It'll take some 

12 data search, and we can find out how many we 

13 did, and once we have that list you can kind 

14 of decide how you want to go about looking at 

15 it.

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: Right.

17 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes, Wanda, then Phil.

18 MEMBER MUNN: In a sense of being 

19 contentious as possible here, what will that 

20 tell us? I mean, I'm concerned because, 

21 especially in this particular Subcommittee the 

22 amount of data with which we deal is pretty 
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1 complex. And, if we -- if we are looking for a 

2 piece of information that would be of value to 

3 us, or would in some way change our process, 

4 then that's a wonderful thing. But, I'm not 

5 at all sure how knowing this would change 

6 anything, simply because there may be adequate 

7 information for one set of claimants and 

8 inadequate data for other sets of claimants on 

9 the same site.

10 So, I guess I'm wondering what 

11 this would really and truly get us, if we went 

12 back to look at it.

13 MEMBER ANDERSON: I think it would 

14 be worthwhile knowing how many there are, and 

15 then we could decide whether it's worth 

16 looking at it.

17 For instance, many of these may 

18 well have been done with the overestimating 

19 methodology, which would be perfectly 

20 appropriate, but then the alternative would be 

21 if, in fact, you know, it would be interesting 

22 to see how were -- if it is a case that would 
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1 fit into this, how was the dose reconstructed, 

2 and then see whether this would have been an 

3 early alert for a need to have an SEC that was 

4 somehow missed, so that the process could have 

5 been started a lot earlier if somehow there 

6 was a missed exposure. So, moving forward, 

7 specifically, I think that happens in 

8 procedures that have changed since that would 

9 lead to an earlier onset of NIOSH-identified 

10 SECs.

11 So, clearly, these cases would not 

12 have been the triggers, it would appear would 

13 not have been the triggers for a subsequent 

14 SEC. Now, if they don't fit the SEC Class, 

15 that's worth knowing.

16 So, you know, I think it's useful 

17 information if we could say, well, what's 

18 going to change, we can look at what the 

19 exposures were, and what there may have been 

20 models that were used that subsequently, you 

21 know, we've reviewed. So, that I think would 

22 be useful to see how it went through the 
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1 process, since they are a group of people, I 

2 think, it would be useful to see.

3 MEMBER GRIFFON: I think it's easy 

4 enough to get that information.

5 MEMBER ANDERSON: Yes, just get a 

6 count.

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, and my sense 

8 is that a lot of the ones, I don't think 

9 there's going to be a lot that actually went 

10 into the SEC, but -- and those that did, I'm 

11 expecting a lot of times it was a site-wide 

12 model or whatever that was used.

13 MEMBER ANDERSON: Yes.

14 MEMBER GRIFFON: You know, but I 

15 don't think it's a large task, and we can 

16 certainly pull those numbers and at least look 

17 at them, and then decide if we want to do 

18 anything with them. I'm not sure, you know, 

19 I'm not sure, like Wanda, I'm not sure what we 

20 would do, but we can at least report on it as 

21 a descriptor at first, yes.

22 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Phil, then Bob. 
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1 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: I'd like to see 

2 a breakdown on these cases of, particularly, 

3 those where it's like a best estimate, or they 

4 are using personal dosimetry records of their 

5 internal and external exposures, see if 

6 there's any correlation for the numbers we are 

7 seeing.

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: Do you mean the 

9 magnitude of internal and external exposures?

10 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes, what they 

11 are getting credit for.

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: Dose assigned you 

13 mean?

14 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Dose 

15 reconstruction.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: The reconstructed 

17 dose as opposed to the reported dose, you 

18 know, the site would have reported those, we 

19 would reconstruct our own, and the PoC falls 

20 directly out of that.

21 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Right.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm not sure, that 
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1 will be a manual search of the dose 

2 reconstruction, because we don't -- we don't 

3 database the reconstructed dose numbers, not 

4 the database. You know, we would have to --

5 that would be a manual search of each dose 

6 reconstruction, in order to add those things 

7 up.

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I think that 

9 would -- yes, we -- I think you'd have to 

10 think long and hard about that one, too, 

11 because I know that the methods used in the 

12 NIOSH program are different than, you know --

13 so if people are going to start to look at 

14 those numbers and try to compare assigned 

15 doses, you know, although we don't give case 

16 numbers out, or specific --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, we, as a 

18 matter of practice now, in a reconstruction, 

19 when a person has a dose record from the 

20 facility, I think it's a standard practice, 

21 but we certainly do it often, we report their 

22 recorded dose at the site, in reference to the 
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1 reconstructed dose. I think that's just -- I 

2 know we do that quite often, I don't know that 

3 we do it in every case. Of course, some 

4 things don't have a site.

5 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Bob?

6 MEMBER PRESLEY: Mark, at one time 

7 we used to have the numbers of the cases that 

8 we have sent back for rework. Do we have 

9 that? Can you expand on that?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Are you talking 

11 the total number of cases that are being 

12 returned to us?

13 MEMBER PRESLEY: No.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: For rework?

15 MEMBER PRESLEY: No, the ones that 

16 we've come up with, out of the 303 cases that 

17 we've done the case studies on, where we have 

18 found a discrepancy that had to go back for 

19 rework. It's not many, we used to -- we used 

20 to have that.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we have --

22 that has been reopened?
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1 MEMBER PRESLEY: Right. Right.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Because of the 

3 Board review? I don't recall any that were 

4 reopened because of Board review.

5 MEMBER PRESLEY: I know it's been 

6 very low.

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: There were a 

8 couple in that first set of 100 that we -- for 

9 Savannah River, actually, that ended up 

10 reworking the case.

11 MEMBER PRESLEY: It's not many.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean, very 

13 often there are a number of cases that we have 

14 recalculated in a demonstration and shown back 

15 to the Advisory Board. There are a number of 

16 cases that were reworked for a Program 

17 Evaluation 

18 Report that may or may not have come out of 

19 the Board -- the review from the Advisory 

20 Board and the Subcommittee.

21 I can't really sort that out, keep 

22 that very straight in my head.
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1 So, there were some things like 

2 that that had been reworked, and so you are 

3 asking how many have been reopened and 

4 reworked from the time of the Board review.

5 MEMBER PRESLEY: Right. It's not 

6 many. I know we had just a few to start with.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I think I can do 

8 that on a database search, I think I can find 

9 that on a database search.

10 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Any of the Board 

11 Members on the phone have questions?

12 Dick Lemen?

13 MEMBER LEMEN: This is Dick. I 

14 don't have any at this time.

15 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Dick doesn't 

16 have any.

17 Bill Field?

18 MEMBER FIELD: No.

19 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: And Mike Gibson?

20 MEMBER GIBSON: No, Jim.

21 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay. Thank 

22 you, and we'll get these slides out to you. I 
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1 know it was a little difficult to see, and 

2 there's so much data, if we'd had Mark read it 

3 all out we'd be here until midnight or 

4 something.

5 Yes, Paul? 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have two 

7 comments. I appreciate the material that you

8 showed, Mark, that Kathy prepared, and I was 

9 thinking about the cases by era, and you were 

10 sort of asking if we are skewed in one 

11 direction or another, particularly, with the 

12 older cases.

13 It seems to me that one other 

14 piece of data we might ask SC&A to gather is 

15 to tell us what percent of the cases that 

16 there are by era that we have looked at.

17 For example, it makes sense, the 

18 early era, just by virtue of people's age, the 

19 incidence of cancers in there for the number 

20 of cases must be much higher. So, it seems to 

21 me an important question is, what percent of 

22 the cases from each era have we, actually, 
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1 looked at, because I don't think the case 

2 distribution will be equal in any event.

3 And then, my second comment is, on 

4 the cancer model there would be a similar 

5 thing. There's going to be a certain -- well, 

6 for example, lung cancers are going to be 

7 pretty high in any of the populations, so the 

8 question in my mind would be, what percent of 

9 the actual lung cancer cases have we looked 

10 at, what percent of cases, and I think we 

11 would see it somewhat differently, if we 

12 change our vision of what is really skewed, 

13 because you want to look, perhaps, at sort of 

14 a comparable fraction of the type of cancers 

15 that are available in the cases.

16 So, I'm wondering if it might be 

17 useful to the group to look at that.

18 MEMBER GRIFFON: I think so, yes. 

19 I think that's readily -- that's something 

20 from the database, but both those factors you 

21 can get pretty readily.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think Kathy 
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1 could probably come up with that.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, for the 

3 total number of cases.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, for example 

5 -- no, if there are X number of lung cancers 

6 in the database, what fraction of those have 

7 we looked at.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, we'll have 

9 to --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: If there are X 

11 number of thyroids, what fraction have we 

12 looked at.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we'll run 

14 that, and then just so I know --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think Kathy 

16 could probably do that.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we can run 

18 that. Our TST people can run that.

19 Just so I'm clear then, for cases 

20 that have multiple cancers should we count 

21 them multiple times?

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Does it matter?

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I haven't given 

3 this a lot of thought, and I'm not, 

4 necessarily -- it's just an idea. I don't 

5 know, maybe the Board doesn't agree to it, and 

6 I don't want to be tasking NIOSH. It's just 

7 an idea.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: The TST people do 

9 this, so I don't even have to do it. So, this 

10 is easy.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: In that case I 

12 have several other items I'd like to do then.

13 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Any other --

14 anybody else we can put to work?

15 Any other questions for Mark 

16 related to the Subcommittee or anything else 

17 you need to say? 

18 Okay, thank you.

19 Bless you. Let the record show 

20 somebody in the audience just sneezed.

21 Okay, let's do the letters. I do 

22 need to do my reading.
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1 You have in front of you, from 

2 this morning Ted handed out, the two letters. 

3 I will -- we'll do them one at a time, but 

4 I'll start with the one for Revere Copper & 

5 Brass.

6 The Advisory Board on Radiation 

7 Worker Health, the Board has evaluated SEC 

8 Petition 00164, concerning workers at Revere 

9 Copper & Brass in Detroit, Michigan, under the 

10 statutory requirements established by EEOICPA 

11 incorporated into 42 CFR Section 83.13. The 

12 Board respectfully recommends Special Exposure 

13 Cohort status be accorded to all Atomic 

14 Weapons Employer employees who worked at 

15 Revere Copper & Brass, Detroit, Michigan, from 

16 July 24, 1943 through December 31, 1954, for 

17 number of work days aggregating at least 250 

18 work days, occurring either solely under this 

19 employment or in combination with work days 

20 within the parameters established for one or 

21 more other Classes of employees included in 

22 the Special Cohort.
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1 This recommendation is based on 

2 the following factors: people working at this 

3 facility during the time period in question 

4 worked on the extrusion of uranium and thorium 

5 billets for nuclear weapons production.

6 The NIOSH review of available data 

7 found that they lacked adequate source-term 

8 process and monitoring data in order to 

9 establish with sufficient accuracy internal 

10 radiation doses for thorium and external 

11 exposures other than occupational medical X12 ray for employees of this facility during the 

13 time period in question.

14 The Board concurs with this 

15 determination.

16 NIOSH determined that health may 

17 have been endangered for these Revere Cooper & 

18 Brass facility workers during the time period 

19 in question.

20 The Board concurs with this 

21 determination.

22 Based on these considerations, and
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1 the discussions held at our October 10-12, 

2 2010 Advisory Board meeting in Idaho Falls, 

3 Idaho, the Board recommends that this Special 

4 Exposure Cohort petition be granted.

5 Enclosed is the documentation from 

6 the Board meeting where the Special Exposure 

7 Cohort Class was discussed. This 

8 documentation includes transcripts of the 

9 deliberations, copies of the petition, the 

10 NIOSH review thereof, and related materials. 

11 If any of these items are unavailable at this 

12 time they will follow shortly.

13 Anybody have comments?

14 MEMBER FIELD: Jim, did you say 

15 October 12th?

16 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: No. August. I 

17 may have misspoke.

18 MEMBER FIELD: Okay.

19 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Any questions? 

20 Paul?

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: I hate to say 

22 this, but I have a friendly amendment. Maybe 
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1 I don't hate to say it, I'm glad to say it.

2 I just noticed in the first 

3 bullet, and this is strictly a writing 

4 preference I think, but the first bullet talks 

5 about people working, work -- people working, 

6 dot, dot, dot, work, which I always like to 

7 avoid sentences that sound like that, where 

8 you are sort of repeating the same word. I'm 

9 suggesting that we say, and this would apply 

10 to both of these letters, when we get to the 

11 other one as well, employees at the facility 

12 worked on. Do you see what I'm saying?

13 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes, that's 

14 fine.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: I just -- it's a 

16 personal preference, I think it sounds better, 

17 but I may be the only one who thinks it sounds 

18 better.

19 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Employees are 

20 people.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: I agree that they 

22 are, it's the work, work part that I'm 
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1 concerned about.

2 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: So change people 

3 to employees?

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Employees at the 

5 facility.

6 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Employees at the 

8 Ames Lab, employees at this facility.

9 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay, that's 

10 fine.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm trying to get 

12 rid of the double use of the work word.

13 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: I understand.

14 Any other? 

15 I don't think we really even need 

16 a motion on this, do we? We've already done 

17 that. So, okay.

18 Now, we'll go on to the Ames 

19 letter, and I'll explain in a second. Let me 

20 read it in first.

21 The Advisory Board on Radiation 

22 and Worker Health, the Board has evaluated SEC 
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1 Petition 00166 concerning workers at the Ames 

2 Laboratory in Ames, Iowa, under the statutory 

3 requirements established by EEOICPA 

4 incorporating 42 CFR Section 83.13. 

5 The Board respectfully recommends 

6 Special Exposure Cohort status be accorded to 

7 all employees of the Department of Energy, 

8 predecessor agencies, and its contractors or 

9 subcontractors who worked in any area of the 

10 Department of Energy facility at the Ames 

11 Laboratory from January 1, 1955 through 

12 December 31, 1960, for a number of work days 

13 aggregating at least 250 work days, occurring 

14 either solely under this employment or in 

15 combination with work days within the 

16 parameters established for one or more other 

17 Classes of employees in the Special Exposure 

18 Cohort.

19 This recommendation is based on 

20 the following factors: employees at the Ames 

21 Laboratory during the time period in question 

22 worked on research and production activities 
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1 related to nuclear weapons production. 

2 The NIOSH review of available 

3 monitoring data, as well as available process 

4 and source-term information for the various 

5 nuclear research and production activities at 

6 the Ames Laboratory found that there were 

7 insufficient data to estimate with sufficient 

8 accuracy internal exposures to various 

9 radionuclides, parenthesis, other than uranium 

10 and thorium contamination resulting from 

11 earlier production activities, closed 

12 parenthesis, for workers at this facility 

13 during the time period in question.

14 The Board concurs with this 

15 determination.

16 NIOSH determined their health may 

17 have been endangered for these Ames Laboratory 

18 facility workers during the time period in 

19 question.

20 The Board concurs with this 

21 determination.

22 Based on these considerations and 
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1 discussions held at our August 10-12, 2010 

2 Advisory Board meeting held in Idaho Falls, 

3 Idaho, the Board recommends that this Special 

4 Exposure Cohort petition be granted.

5 Enclosed is the documentation from 

6 the Board meeting where this Special Exposure 

7 Cohort Class was discussed. The documentation 

8 includes transcripts of the deliberations, 

9 copies of the petition, the NIOSH review 

10 thereof, and related materials. If any of

11 these items are unavailable at this time they 

12 will follow shortly.

13 Now, the Class Definition there in 

14 the letter differs a little bit from what was 

15 in the report, and there were some corrections 

16 that were made in consultation with counsel, 

17 in order to match up, you know, how this was 

18 listed, and it wasn't, actually, listed quite 

19 correctly in the SEC Evaluation Report we 

20 have, so we are just trying to be consistent. 

21 It doesn't -- it hasn't really changed 

22 anything from what we discussed and voted on 
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1 yesterday. But, it looks different if you 

2 bother to look back.

3 Any questions or comments on that, 

4 friendly or unfriendly amendments?

5 Yes, Wanda?

6 MEMBER MUNN: I would suggest the 

7 same --

8 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: We did. We did. 

9 I'm sorry, when I read it --

10 MEMBER MUNN: I was reading it 

11 here.

12 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: I know. I know. 

13 I wasn't necessarily expecting everybody to 

14 listening intently. You've heard a lot of 

15 this before.

16 Okay. Let's see what else we 

17 have.

18 We have one other change in --

19 possible change in dates. Due to a little bit 

20 of an email mix-up, I ended up with a conflict 

21 on October 7th, which is the teleconference, 

22 and we wanted to see if we could change that 
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1 date. How about Friday, October 8th?

2 MR. KATZ: That would be 11:00, 

3 11:00, you know, `till 1:00 or 2:00 on the 

4 8th. 

5 MEMBER ANDERSON: I can't.

6 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: How about the 

7 5th? It's a Tuesday.

8 MEMBER LOCKEY: That doesn't work 

9 for me.

10 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay.

11 MEMBER BEACH: The 5th doesn't 

12 work for me either.

13 MR. KATZ: 4th?

14 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: 4th? Are you 

15 away at that time?

16 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, I am gone.

17 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay.

18 MR. KATZ: Do you want to do it a 

19 week later?

20 MEMBER MUNN: Just for your 

21 information, we are -- there are emails going 

22 back and forth this morning about the 
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1 possibility of another meeting on the 15th.

2 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay. Then, 

3 let's just leave it. We'll leave it the 7th 

4 then.

5 MEMBER ANDERSON: Would a 

6 different time of day work?

7 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: No, no, no, it 

8 won't.

9 We'll just leave it the same.

10 MEMBER FIELD: Jim, this is Bill. 

11 What's the time that day?

12 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Eleven Eastern 

13 Time.

14 MEMBER FIELD: Okay.

15 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay. Any other 

16 business? 

17 I'd certainly like to thank Ted 

18 Zaida for getting us all here, hopefully, 

19 getting us all back, and NIOSH, and everybody, 

20 SC&A, for help.

21 Yes?

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: Excuse me.
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1 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay.

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: What did we come 

3 up with with BWXT? That was on the agenda 

4 here, and I was just wondering.

5 MR. KATZ: Brad, that was just an 

6 update.

7 MEMBER CLAWSON: Oh, okay.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: LaVon reported on 

9 it briefly at the end of his SC&A update 

10 progress report.

11 MEMBER CLAWSON: I saw that we had 

12 more there, and I was wondering if --

13 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: No, no.

14 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay.

15 MEMBER PRESLEY: Hey, Jim?

16 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes.

17 MEMBER PRESLEY: They were asking 

18 last night if we do go to Nashville, 

19 Tennessee, where to stay, there's a huge 

20 Marriott. It's very, very nice. It's right 

21 at the airport entrance, and it's a very good 

22 place to stay.
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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Ted, this is Dick.

2 Can you, Ted, send around all the 

3 dates we finally ended up deciding upon?

4 MR. KATZ: Yes. Yes, I will be 

5 doing that, Dick. Thank you.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: Thank you.

7 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes, go ahead, 

8 Jim.

9 MEMBER LOCKEY: I will wait until 

10 you are done, because I have an issue to 

11 raise.

12 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay. The 

13 November meeting is Santa Fe?

14 MR. KATZ: November is Santa Fe, 

15 that's set for Santa Fe. We have a hotel. 

16 It's right in the middle. It's very 

17 convenient to everything.

18 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay.

19 MEMBER ROESSLER: What is the name 

20 of the hotel?

21 MR. KATZ: I would have to ask 

22 Zaida. It's in Santa Fe, it's in town. The 
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1 Hilton.

2 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: So, tentatively, 

3 let's think about a two-and-a-half day 

4 meeting, so if that helps people with their 

5 thinking about travel and so forth.

6 MEMBER PRESLEY: Do you want to 

7 try to go to Los Alamos or anything, while we 

8 are out there?

9 MR. KATZ: Well, I think we'll try 

10 to arrange a tour for those Board Members who 

11 can make a tour, so, yes, we will be working 

12 on a tour.

13 MEMBER GRIFFON: What is the date?

14 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: November 16th, 

15 17th and 18th.

16 MR. KATZ: That sounds right.

17 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes.

18 Jim Lockey, yes.

19 MEMBER LOCKEY: I wanted to -- in 

20 relationship, this has relationship to the 

21 Niagara Falls meeting, Jim.

22 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes.
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1 MEMBER LOCKEY: The process that 

2 was used to bring up the vote for Bethlehem 

3 Steel, I'd like to get through that process.

4 I was unprepared for that vote. I 

5 had not really been involved with Bethlehem 

6 Steel.

7 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes.

8 MEMBER LOCKEY: I was not aware of 

9 the history, and I should have probably 

10 abstained from the vote, because I had little 

11 knowledge about that situation. But, I was 

12 surprised that the vote was brought up, and I 

13 was surprised, I don't think Chairs can lead 

14 with -- but maybe I'm wrong about that -- in 

15 Robert's Rules I believe the Chair is not the 

16 one who offers a proposal, but put that aside.

17 I think that's past, but I think 

18 the future, if we are going to vote as a Board 

19 on SECs, we should at least have agreement 

20 among us that we are forewarned at least some 

21 point, so we have time, if we need to, to go 

22 back and look at these, especially for some of 
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1 the new Members. We did that for Blockson, 

2 because I know you said, well, we need to have 

3 new Members have time to review the data, but 

4 we did not do that for Bethlehem Steel, and 

5 there might have been reasons for that, and I 

6 can imagine what the reasons could have been.

7 But, I think as a Board we should 

8 discuss the process, and at least give the 

9 Board an opportunity, and Members of the Board 

10 an opportunity, to catch up if the vote is 

11 coming.

12 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay, and, well, 

13 we'll try to communicate better.

14 I mean, the one -- if it helps, 

15 when you get the annotated agenda --

16 MEMBER LOCKEY: I saw that, but it 

17 changed through the week. You know, there was 

18 something else on the agenda, then it changed 

19 again.

20 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes, well, but 

21 I'm just saying, that -- the petitioners, what 

22 happened with this meeting is, one of the 
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1 reasons we have time is that we thought we 

2 had, you know, two votes coming.

3 I agree with you, though. I think 

4 that what we've been trying to do, and been 

5 thinking about this in terms of some of the 

6 longer-term -- long-delayed, let's say, SEC 

7 Evaluations, it's hard, and to try to get --

8 even if we are not going to be ready yet, I 

9 think having some sort of a briefing, you 

10 know, periodically, or a month or so ahead, 

11 you know, the previous meeting or something, 

12 that's what, actually, we are trying to do 

13 with the SEC, ten 250 day issue. It wasn't to 

14 reach a decision, but was to be able to have 

15 everyone become familiar with the issue 

16 update, you know, lots of documents, lots of 

17 meetings, and try to get key information for 

18 people to be able to read ahead of time and so 

19 forth.

20 And then, it may also help to 

21 facilitate reaching a decision on that, 

22 because it's input for the Work Group from 
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1 other Board Members. And so, I think we will 

2 try to do that periodically. It is hard with 

3 our -- you know, it's a balance on our agenda, 

4 I think, between, you know, how much time it 

5 takes, especially, with all the SEC 

6 Evaluations that come in, you know, it's

7 limited, and I think we want to try and avoid 

8 longer meetings if we can also.

9 But, I hear you and I agree.

10 MEMBER LEMEN: Hello, this is Dick 

11 Lemen. Could I say something?

12 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes, you may.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: As a new Board 

14 Member, I would disagree with Dr. Lockey. I 

15 think that we had adequate time to study the 

16 Bethlehem Steel. 

17 I felt that I was more briefed 

18 about Bethlehem Steel and the problems that 

19 had been encountered with Bethlehem Steel, and 

20 the long, latency period of nothing being done 

21 with Bethlehem Steel, that I was ready to make 

22 the motion myself about moving forward with a 
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1 vote.

2 I think that we had a lot of 

3 information, more than I've had about many of 

4 the other sites, to move forward with 

5 Bethlehem Steel, and it was clear that 

6 Bethlehem Steel had been sitting in abeyance 

7 with nothing being done for quite some time.

8 So, I would respectfully disagree 

9 with your assessment, Jim, Jim Lockey, and 

10 feel that it was appropriate the way we moved 

11 forward, and I would like to encourage us to 

12 do that more frequently with other groups, so 

13 that we could clear out some of these problems 

14 that have been sitting around for years.

15 MEMBER FIELD: This is Bill. As a 

16 new Board Member, I abstained for that vote, 

17 just for the reason Jim indicated. I thought 

18 I was totally blind-sided by the vote 

19 occurring that day, and I would have really 

20 appreciated more time, so I could have made an 

21 informed vote, rather than abstaining.

22 So, in all due respect, Dick, I 
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1 have to disagree, and say I wish I had more 

2 time.

3 The meetings before the face-to4 face, there were two votes that were put off 

5 to the next meeting because I believe in that 

6 case you weren't prepared to vote. I was 

7 prepared to vote at those votes. I thought I 

8 had plenty of information.

9 So, I think, you know, to be fair 

10 to all the Board Members, especially, the new 

11 Board Members, it would really be helpful if 

12 we had notice ahead of time, and really 

13 information that we need to base a vote upon.

14 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Wanda?

15 MEMBER MUNN: My only comment 

16 about that discussion is I really don't feel, 

17 from this perspective, that Bethlehem Steel 

18 had been sitting in abeyance. I really feel 

19 it had been under active consideration and 

20 under discussion, virtually, until the time we 

21 put it on the calendar.

22 And, I can easily understand how 
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1 anyone that was relatively new to the process 

2 would have missed the first couple of years of 

3 debate and conversation about it, but it was -

4 - I can certainly respect the view of new 

5 Board Members with respect to the need for a 

6 little more background, a little more time to 

7 consider that.

8 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Jim Lockey?

9 MEMBER LOCKEY: Jim, I think it is 

10 -- it's easily solvable. We have -- you know, 

11 we have a conference call usually between 

12 Board meetings. If there's a potential SEC 

13 vote coming up we can discuss it then, and 

14 everybody can have, you know, six weeks notice 

15 that it may or may not happen, but at least 

16 you are notified it may happen.

17 And, that's an easy thing to do, I 

18 think.

19 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes, I don't 

20 disagree, at least to the extent that we can 

21 foresee what's going to be on the agenda, but 

22 it does change, I can tell you. I wish it 
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1 didn't, but things drop off, you know, things, 

2 you know --

3 MEMBER LOCKEY: I understand that.

4 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Come up. You 

5 know, some of it -- you know, we are trying to 

6 be timely in terms of decision making and so 

7 forth.

8 I think, again, to sort of rehash 

9 what happened I don't think is necessarily 

10 helpful, but, you know, whoever puts forward a 

11 motion, and we've gone through that, it's then 

12 up to the Board to, you know, vote and decide. 

13 And, if people want to express and say they 

14 want delay or whatever, which we've done many 

15 times, that's fine.

16 Any other comments?

17 Yes, Wanda.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Not on this topic, 

19 if I may change the topic.

20 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: That's fine.

21 MEMBER MUNN: I have not done a 

22 search of our transcripts to try to identify 
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1 whether the discussions that have gone on with 

2 respect to this topic were, actually, done in 

3 a formal setting, or whether they were 

4 informal discussions. But, a number of years 

5 ago there were several discussions that took 

6 place among Board Members with respect to the 

7 possibility of minority reports being attached 

8 to letters to the Secretary when a significant 

9 portion of the Board had a disagreement with 

10 the final finding.

11 That has not come up in recent 

12 years, and it may be a topic that some of the 

13 Board might be interested in pursuing, not, 

14 perhaps, at this meeting, but it's a thought 

15 that I'd like to lay on the table.

16 I know it's clear from the votes 

17 that have been taken on several of our actions 

18 in the last year or so, that some of the 

19 findings that the Board has made, some of the 

20 recommendations that have been made to the 

21 Secretary, could not -- they are majority 

22 votes, but they are not -- they can't be 
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1 considered strong support for the Board in all 

2 cases.

3 It would be, I think, worthwhile 

4 for this body, as a group, to consider the 

5 possibility of whether such a report could be 

6 done in a formal fashion, or even in an 

7 informal fashion, following the recommendation 

8 to the Secretary.

9 I realize that this would 

10 complicate matters for, not only the Board, 

11 but also the Secretary, but it seems only 

12 fair. We certainly don't expect the Secretary 

13 and the Secretary's staff to be keeping track 

14 of our transcripts, and the feelings that are 

15 expressed by some of the Members here 

16 regarding how the Board findings come down.

17 So, I'd like to recommend that we 

18 take that under consideration, and, perhaps, 

19 have a discussion about it. It may be an 

20 adequate topic for our upcoming 

21 teleconference.

22 MR. KATZ: I think that would be 
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1 good to have that discussion then when 

2 everyone is present.

3 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Well, I think it 

4 would be better to do it in person, not on the 

5 phone. That would be my only comment.

6 Paul?

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: I don't disagree 

8 that it would be worth having the discussion, 

9 but I believe there was discussion on this a 

10 number of years ago.

11 One thing I would point out, and 

12 we have to consider, I suppose, whether or not 

13 the Secretary would feel well served by such 

14 information, one of the reasons we attached to 

15 the findings the transcripts, and other 

16 documentation, is so that there is available 

17 to the Secretary the information on why a 

18 certain outcome has occurred, and whether or 

19 not that is of value to the Secretary is not 

20 necessarily clear to me. In one sense, that's 

21 the Secretary's business, but I do think the 

22 information is available if the Secretary 
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1 would, herself or himself in the future as the 

2 case may be, believe that it would be useful 

3 to have a specific individual report beyond 

4 the transcripts and the main outcome 

5 recommendation, certainly, we should consider 

6 that.

7 I think counsel also weighed in on 

8 this before, as to whether or not there could 

9 be a separate report, but I think that was, 

10 perhaps, your predecessor, Emily, but it may 

11 be that counsel would have to weigh in on it, 

12 too.

13 But, again, I guess we are not 

14 going -- we don't need to have the discussion 

15 here, I just wanted to indicate that I know we 

16 have considered it before, and wanted to make 

17 sure that the Secretary was at least fully 

18 apprised of everything that went into the 

19 decision, including the transcripts.

20 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Yes, as I recall 

21 that discussion, that was -- it was also, 

22 since we were making a recommendation that was 
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1 going to be relatively short, we are not 

2 issuing a report on something, it gives, you 

3 know, some logistical issues to trying to do 

4 minority reports and so forth, but let's have 

5 the discussion.

6 Any other issues?

7 Ted?

8 MR. KATZ: I'm happy to follow-up 

9 with OGC internally --

10 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay.

11 MR. KATZ: About to get some input 

12 on this question.

13 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: That's fine.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Ted, if at the time 

15 you are following up, if you are able to 

16 identify where in our official transcripts 

17 those proceedings are, I'll be glad to try to 

18 do that, if that's necessary, but it seems 

19 that it would be beneficial. If we are going 

20 to have the discussions, to see what the 

21 previous discussion was.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes, I'll certainly 
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1 make an attempt to go fishing for whenever 

2 that might have been discussed.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, thank you.

4 MR. KATZ: Any clues that Board 

5 members might give me --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I will give you a 

7 clue, and that would be to go back to the 

8 times of the Mallinckrodt discussions.

9 MR. KATZ: Okay, thank you.

10 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: And, I, 

11 actually, think it was even before that. I 

12 think it was when we were first establishing 

13 the Board.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: It could have 

15 been.

16 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: It was -- and we 

17 were discussing how we were going to be 

18 reporting it, and so the format of the letters 

19 and so forth, I think that's where the 

20 discussion took place, and sort of our rules 

21 of operations, whatever.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, late 2002, 
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1 early 2003, somewhere in there, I think.

2 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: But, who knows.

3 MR. KATZ: Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN MELIUS: Okay. Good. Any 

5 other issues? If not, we are adjourned. See 

6 everybody in Santa Fe.

7 MR. KATZ: Thank you, everyone, 

8 for your hard work.

9 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

10 matter went off the record at 9:42 a.m.)

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