1

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Procedures.

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PROCEDURES REVIEW

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

MARCH 23, 2010

+ + + + +

The Subcommittee convened in the 

Zurich Room of the Cincinnati Airport 

Marriott, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron, 

Kentucky, at 9:30 a.m., Wanda I. Munn, Chair, 

presiding.

PRESENT:

WANDA I. MUNN, Chair

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member

MARK GRIFFON, Member*

RICHARD A. LEMEN, Member

PAUL L. ZIEMER, Member*
2

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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor

ISAF AL-NABULSI, DOE*

HANS BEHLING, SC&A*

KATHY BEHLING, SC&A*

ELIZABETH BRACKETT, ORAU Team*

STUART HINNEFELD, DCAS

EMILY HOWELL, HHS

GEORGE KERR, ORAU Team*

JENNY LIN, HHS

STEPHEN MARSCHKE, SC&A

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

STEVE OSTROW, SC&A*

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU Team*

SCOTT SIEBERT, DCAS*

ELYSE THOMAS, DCAS*

BRANT ULSH, DCAS

*Participating via telephone
3

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

AGENDA ITEM PAGE

Welcome, introductions 4

Outreach Procedures: PER-12 Update 12

PER Reviews 17

Action Items, continued 150

Discussion of OCUS and ORAU Documents 214

 for SC&A Review

OTIB-70 Responses from NIOSH 231

PROC-0042, SC&A 233

PROC-95, SC&A 236

Calendar and Administrative Issues 243
4

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:30 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: Good morning, everyone 

4 in the room and on the line. This is the 

5 Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, 

6 Subcommittee on Procedures Review.

7 My name is Ted Katz. I am the 

8 Designated Federal Official. We will begin 

9 roll call with Board members in the room.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Wanda Munn, Chair of 

11 the Subcommittee.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: Richard Lemen, 

13 member of the Subcommittee.

14 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, 

15 member of the Subcommittee.

16 MR. KATZ: And on the line, Board 

17 members?

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Paul Ziemer, 

19 member of the Subcommittee.

20 MR. KATZ: Mark? Not yet? Okay. 

21 then NIOSH ORAU team in the room.
5

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1 DR. ULSH: Yes. This is Brant 

2 Ulsh from the Division of Compensation 

3 Analysis and Support.

4 MR. KATZ: And on the line, NIOSH 

5 ORAU team?

6 MS. THOMAS: Elyse Thomas, ORAU 

7 team.

8 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Elyse.

9 MR. SIEBERT: Scott Siebert, ORAU.

10 MR. KATZ: Scott.

11 MR. SHARFI: Mutty Sharfi, ORAU.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay. SC&A in the 

13 room?

14 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Steve Marschke, 

16 SC&A.

17 MR. KATZ: And SC&A on the line?

18 MR. OSTROW: Steve Ostrow.

19 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Steve.

20 MR. OSTROW: Good morning.

21 MR. KATZ: Okay, and then HHS and 
6

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1 other government employees or contractors in 

2 the room?

3 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS.

4 MS. LIN: Jenny Lin, HHS.

5 MS. ADAMS: Nancy Adams, NIOSH 

6 contractor.

7 MR. KATZ: And on the line, HHS or 

8 other government employees or contractors?

9 MS. AL-NABULSI: Isaf Al-Nabulsi, 

10 DOE.

11 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Isaf. Then 

12 members of the public. Any members of the 

13 public on the line?

14 (No response.)

15 Okay then, Wanda.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you, Ted. We 

17 want to take just a minute to give a special 

18 welcome to Dr. Richard Lemen, who is our 

19 sparkling brand new Member of our 

20 Subcommittee. We are delighted to have you, 

21 Dick. Thanks for making the trip here. That 
7

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1 is a good thing.

2 We have quite a loaded schedule 

3 today. I have pleaded with you to be here if 

4 you could and to stay as long as you can and I 

5 already know that half of you are not going to 

6 follow my directive. So we will do the best 

7 to cover the material that we have. It is 

8 rather significant.

9 I am working on the assumption 

10 that everyone has our action items list which 

11 I sent out by email last week. If any of you 

12 do not, please speak now, because we will be 

13 relying on that action items list not only for 

14 what we do today, but for our next step for 

15 our coming-up meeting, whenever that is going 

16 to be.

17 Everyone okay with the materials 

18 in hand? You are aware of the fact we are 

19 going to have what we hope to be a fairly 

20 definitive but brief discussion on PERs and 

21 how we are going to proceed with that 
8

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1 particular activity in this Subcommittee, and 

2 you have had an opportunity to take a look at 

3 the carryover items.

4 Also, we have received a set of 

5 new findings from NIOSH with a number of SC&A 

6 updates from last October filtered in. We 

7 will have Steve go through a part of that very 

8 shortly so that we can all, hopefully, be on 

9 the same page with respect to where we are on 

10 our tracking mechanism.

11 I have one or two things that I 

12 would like to change, rather, add to our 

13 action items list. After lunch, we have --

14 the information that you should have received 

15 by email should contain updates on OTIB-0029-

16 01 and -02. I would like to do that right 

17 after lunch.

18 After we have looked at OTIB-0051, 

19 we also have new information on OTIB-0021, 

20 which I would like to place right in there. 

21 Also, I think most of you received a request 
9

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1 from Steve Marschke by email asking that we 

2 address, if possible, new OCAS and ORAU's 

3 comments for SC&A review. I would like to do 

4 that after the afternoon break, right after 

5 2:30. If that fits everyone's needs, we will 

6 roughly follow that format. If you have a 

7 problem with that, please speak now or forever 

8 hold your peace. 

9 Did I hear someone coming on the 

10 line? Could that have been our missing 

11 member?

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: I have been on 

13 for a few minutes. I think somebody else just 

14 came in, though. This is Mark Griffon.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. 

16 Excellent. We are all here and accounted for 

17 or somewhere and accounted for, in any case.

18 To begin with, let us very quickly 

19 see if there is anything of consequence that 

20 we need to address in our carry-overs from our 

21 last November session. NIOSH was going to 
10

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1 check with IT to see if there was any good 

2 instruction for us on how to provide those PDF 

3 files when we were transferring procedures, 

4 but have you had a chance to do that, Brant?

5 DR. ULSH: No. Can you refresh me 

6 a little bit on what the issue was?

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. When we 

8 transfer our procedures -- Steve, could you 

9 put one of our -- an example of an outstanding 

10 item that we have with -- or just for kicks, 

11 since we are going to be working on OTIB-0021 

12 later, do you want to get that up for us to 

13 just serve as an example? 

14 As you can see from our procedures 

15 tracking there, we try to keep a record of 

16 each exchange that has gone on. When we reach 

17 a point when, for any reason, we decide to 

18 transfer one of these items either to another 

19 working group or another subcommittee or they 

20 transfer something to us, what we try to do is 

21 we want to send them a file of what we can 
11

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1 pull up on the O: drive in this particular 

2 database.

3 Right now we do not have a way to 

4 make a PDF file of the material that we have. 

5 Now you see, what shows in the windows is not 

6 necessarily the whole story, because -- Steve, 

7 can you --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: We can make a PDF 

9 file. I will make one small correction. We 

10 can make a PDF file, but it is a static PDF 

11 file. It is an unchangeable PDF file.

12 CHAIR MUNN: We can't transfer it 

13 to them in such a way so that they can work 

14 with it. We want to know if that can be done, 

15 if they can work with it as the same kind of 

16 file that we have here or they are going to 

17 have to send back to us a static report that 

18 we will have to incorporate in some way 

19 because we haven't established any procedure 

20 for exchanges between the two groups with 

21 respect to their progress.
12

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1 DR. ULSH: Okay. I am not aware 

2 of any progress on this issue. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: It may not even be 

4 possible, but we would like feedback from the 

5 IT people on whether or not it is possible.

6 I have not fulfilled my obligation 

7 with respect to the transfer of IG-004, even 

8 though I have discussed it with Jim Melius and 

9 have promised him that it was in the works. I 

10 still have not done it.

11 Check for documents on PROC-97 and 

12 assure all nine findings are, in fact, covered 

13 in PER-12. That was an SC&A requirement. 

14 John?

15 DR. MAURO: Yes, I did get up 

16 there, and our review of PER-12 is almost 

17 done. In fact, we discussed it recently, and 

18 we will have a report out. Effectively, what 

19 that review will do is describe -- have 

20 several aspects to it.

21 PER-12, by the way, is your 
13

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1 outreach procedure. I guess it was OTIB-0097, 

2 was your former outreach procedure that was 

3 replaced by their more recent PER-12. PER-12 

4 being that it added in the tracking system and 

5 it made a number of changes.

6 We were tasked by the Outreach 

7 Work Group to review PER-12 from many 

8 contexts, one of which is the degree to which 

9 the new procedure, in fact, subsumes all of 

10 the elements that originally were provided for 

11 in -97. So I guess the short answer to your 

12 question is that won't happen until a couple 

13 of weeks from now when we deliver our PER-12 

14 report and then we will have a clear picture 

15 of what it is in PER-12 that perhaps did not 

16 make it into -- I'm sorry -- I think it is 

17 OTIB-0097 that didn't make it into PER-12 and 

18 its significance.

19 So that is a process that is 

20 underway.

21 CHAIR MUNN: If I am hearing you 
14

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1 correctly then, when you release PER-12 in a 

2 couple of weeks, it will actually identify --

3 DR. MAURO: Yes.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Included in your 

5 submission will be any identification of any 

6 shortcoming between PROC-97.

7 DR. MAURO: And more than that; it 

8 would evaluate -- the evaluation of PER-12 

9 goes toward -- that is the first thing to 

10 check. Okay, have we carried that forward to 

11 the extent that the Work Group feels it has 

12 been fully carried forward? But also there is 

13 now also an implementation plan for outreach 

14 that has been discussed and, I think, was 

15 brought before the full Board at the last 

16 meeting and I believe the Work Group has 

17 accepted it.

18 It wasn't a matter of the Board 

19 approving it. I think it was just a matter of 

20 the Work Group saying, yes, this is what we 

21 are going to use. That implementation plan 
15

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1 also sets forth now what the Work Group feels 

2 are all the elements that are good -- that the 

3 Outreach Work Group would like to 

4 independently evaluate.

5 So that becomes another blueprint. 

6 Okay, so when we review PER-12, we are not 

7 only reviewing to see that it captured 

8 everything in -97, but also whether or not it 

9 captures everything that is currently in the 

10 new Implementation Plan. 

11 So it is broader than that, but 

12 certainly, whatever portion of that you would 

13 like to have loaded into here, the mechanics -

14 - the information will be there. The question 

15 is what it is you would like to capture in 

16 this database and the degree to which PER-12 

17 is part of this or part of Outreach or both, 

18 these are matters -- this is one of the first 

19 times where we have come across a situation 

20 where we have a procedure review and 

21 simultaneously it is a procedure that falls 
16

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1 under the Outreach Group.

2 So there is, I guess, a little bit 

3 of the logistics of the communication and 

4 coordination that still have to be worked out.

5 CHAIR MUNN: We are, of course, 

6 addressing that. We are already working with 

7 the plan in the Worker Outreach Group. Do you 

8 want to say anything about that, Mike?

9 MEMBER GIBSON: I think John 

10 described it pretty well.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. Then we will 

12 anticipate the delivery of PER-12 in the next 

13 couple of weeks and we will address that at 

14 our next meeting as well.

15 The last carry-forward that I have 

16 is -- no, there are two: providing response to 

17 PROC-95. There were two requests from that 

18 from NIOSH for loading responses into the 

19 database and making sure the paragraphs were 

20 numbered properly for OTIB-13. Do you know if 

21 that has happened, Brant?
17

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1 DR. ULSH: Elyse, are you on-line?

2 MS. THOMAS: Yes, I am. 

3 DR. ULSH: Can you take the lead 

4 on that?

5 MS. THOMAS: I just got access to 

6 write into the database. So those haven't been 

7 done. In other words, the database has not 

8 been updated on that.

9 CHAIR MUNN: But you have the 

10 material you need to do so?

11 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

12 CHAIR MUNN: So it is just the 

13 mechanics we are looking at?

14 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, very good. So 

16 that is going to happen by magic here in a 

17 week or so. Right?

18 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

19 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Now we 

20 come to the meaty part of our action items for 

21 this morning. That is the discussion of our 
18

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1 PER reviews: where we are with those and how 

2 we want to approach them in the future.

3 In order for everybody to be 

4 starting from the same place, I would like to 

5 get a brief overview from both SC&A and NIOSH 

6 as to how they perceive this Subcommittee 

7 should be addressing the PERs as they come up 

8 for us in future meetings.

9 It doesn't matter to us which of 

10 you goes first. John, would you like to give 

11 us the SC&A view of what you believe the 

12 Subcommittee should do with your -- you have 

13 already given us the protocol to review.

14 DR. MAURO: Right. What happened 

15 is PER reviews have been subsumed within this 

16 Subcommittee. At one time this Subcommittee 

17 was limited to procedure reviews, OTIBs 

18 primarily. It was deemed that, as we matured 

19 and as we will see, these procedures, the vast 

20 majority of the procedures have been reviewed 

21 and are in various stages of issues 
19

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1 resolution.

2 It was deemed that the next stage 

3 of maturation of the program is a lot of old 

4 dose reconstructions are in the process of 

5 being reevaluated because of new procedures 

6 and changes, and the program now -- NIOSH's 

7 program includes Program Evaluation Reports, 

8 PERs.

9 Basically, what a PER does is 

10 says, okay, we are revising a number of our 

11 procedures, our site profiles or whatever and 

12 as a result of that, a lot of cases have to be 

13 revisited and there is a protocol that NIOSH 

14 follows in order to make sure that they go 

15 back into the adjudicated cases, pull out the 

16 appropriate cases that could be affected by 

17 these changes and redo the changes. In some 

18 cases, it is a handful of cases; in other 

19 cases, it could be literally 1,000 or more 

20 cases that might need to be reviewed. So that 

21 is the process NIOSH has well under hand, well 
20

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cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

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1 underway.

2 The Board and the Working Group 

3 decided that, listen, I think it is important 

4 that the Board take a look at that to see how 

5 well that process is working from several 

6 perspectives.

7 One, is NIOSH selecting the 

8 appropriate cases to be fixed? When you have 

9 1,000 adjudicated cases and let's say 30 

10 percent of them were denied and a judgment has 

11 to be made, do we have to revisit all of those 

12 cases? Well, maybe we only have to revisit 

13 some subset of it, only the ones that we feel 

14 have the potential to be reversed. In other 

15 words, go from denial to granting.

16 So the first step in NIOSH's 

17 process is to make that judgment and it is not 

18 always a simple judgment. Sometimes NIOSH 

19 says, every single case that was denied, no 

20 matter what the PoC was, we are going to 

21 review it or we are only going to review those 
21

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1 that had a PoC that was less than 15 percent -

2 - I'm sorry, greater than 16 percent, because 

3 we know, no matter what happens, if the PoC 

4 was less than 16 percent, there is no way all 

5 these changes could ever kick it over the 50 

6 percent. 

7 So these are judgment calls that 

8 NIOSH makes in terms of selecting the cases. 

9 It is important to understand with NIOSH, 

10 though. 

11 Then they go ahead and they do the 

12 cases and they implement and make all those 

13 changes, redo the calculations using new 

14 technical approaches that are new improvements 

15 in the protocol of doing dose reconstruction, 

16 whatever that might be. Could be a change in 

17 neutron to photon ratio. It could be a change 

18 in the biokinetics of some inhaled 

19 radionuclide.

20 Now the end of the story: the end 

21 of the story is SC&A was asked -- I think it 
22

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1 is a good idea to bring that to the table, to 

2 the Board -- so we will have SC&A review some 

3 selected PERs to see how well that program is 

4 going.

5 To date, I believe we have 

6 formally reviewed three: Blockson, high-fired 

7 uranium, and thoracic lymphoma. These are the 

8 three I recall. There may be more. If Hans 

9 is on the line, he probably could help us out 

10 a bit. But along the way, we ran into a 

11 little bit of a knot. That is, during the 

12 last one, which I believe was PER-12, it 

13 dawned on everyone, you know, SC&A is moving 

14 forward reviewing these PERs but we don't have 

15 a procedure, because everything else we do on 

16 the project, whether it is dose reconstruction 

17 reviews, site profile reviews, procedure 

18 reviews, we have a formal procedure that was 

19 submitted to the Board, reviewed by the Board, 

20 approved and is sitting up on the Web. But 

21 here we are marching down the road.
23

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1 The way this actually happened, by 

2 the way, is it happened during the transition 

3 from our old contract to our new contract. In 

4 our recompete, we put in a section that 

5 described in some detail the procedure we are 

6 going to follow to do PER reviews, because we 

7 knew that was going to be an item.

8 So we actually do have a 

9 procedure, but it is not a procedure that was 

10 formally submitted to the Board for review and 

11 approval. It was actually a procedure that we 

12 submitted as part of our proposal, and it sort 

13 of served as an interim procedure to use to 

14 get the PER process started, which is what we 

15 did. But it was agreed that, listen, we 

16 really need to formalize the procedure, have 

17 it formally reviewed and approved, and that 

18 was a task that was given to SC&A a while 

19 back.

20 We did, in fact, develop the 

21 procedure of December 2009, and deliver it to 
24

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1 the Board. Now we are waiting for the Work 

2 Group to review it and comment on it, and 

3 NIOSH to review it and comment on it, and to 

4 give any feedback whether this is okay.

5 The process eventually would be we 

6 would make any revisions that the Work Group 

7 feels is needed, and at that point that the 

8 Work Group is comfortable with it, it would 

9 bring it to the Board as a recommendation for 

10 approval by the Board.

11 Then we will be in a position to 

12 actually have a formal procedure under which 

13 we would proceed. The reason I feel it is 

14 urgent that we review and approve or whatever 

15 this procedure is we have sort of been in 

16 limbo on doing any new PER reviews. 

17 It was generally agreed, really, 

18 until we get this procedure approved, it is 

19 inappropriate for SC&A to move forward --

20 there are lots and lots of PERs -- on any 

21 additional PER reviews, because we really 
25

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1 don't have a formally accepted procedure for 

2 performing those reviews. There is my story.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Did you happen to 

4 bring a hard copy, since I can't get to my 

5 computer?

6 DR. MAURO: Of this? No, I don't 

7 have one with me.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: One thing I should 

9 -- I would like to add is that this is a 

10 December 1, 2009 version. This is the thing 

11 that I have shown on the screen here, is a 

12 December 1, 2009, version of this PER review 

13 document.

14 This reflects comments that were 

15 made during the November -- I think it was the 

16 November 17th Subcommittee meeting where we 

17 talked about a previous version and we 

18 commented on a previous version of this PER.

19 So Hans has taken that, the 

20 comments that were made during that 

21 Subcommittee and incorporated those comments 
26

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1 into this version. So this is like the draft 

2 2 or draft 3 of the procedure.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and I was making 

4 the assumption that this was the revision from 

5 which we were -- on which we were basing our 

6 comments.

7 Paul and Mark, are you on-board 

8 with this with respect to which version we are 

9 looking at?

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I don't have 

11 it up before me. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I don't think 

13 it is necessary. I just wanted to make sure 

14 that neither of you in your reviews have been 

15 working from an earlier version. That was my 

16 only concern.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: I don't think so.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

19 MR. KATZ: It might be nice for 

20 Steve or John to just do a skeletal summary of 

21 the components of it and what changed, so that 
27

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1 -- particularly for Dick, who hadn't reviewed 

2 the procedure -- so they have an understanding 

3 of the mechanics.

4 DR. MAURO: Let's scroll through. 

5 Yes. 

6 MS. BEHLING: John, excuse me. 

7 This is Kathy Behling. We are on the line. I 

8 am sorry we weren't here when you had the roll 

9 call, but I also just wanted to tell you that 

10 this is Rev 1 of that procedure that we did 

11 discuss seems -- is correct. We discussed 

12 this procedure. 

13 We presented it to the 

14 Subcommittee during the November meeting, and 

15 we have discussed it, and we incorporated --

16 we hope we have incorporated all of the 

17 changes that we had discussed during that 

18 meeting.

19 So what you are looking at is Rev 

20 1, December 2009, and it, hopefully, reflects 

21 all of the changes and comments that you had 
28

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1 in November.

2 DR. MAURO: Kathy, your timing is 

3 very good. I hope you can hear me. I am at 

4 the other end of the table, but one of the 

5 things that was just asked is, how about a 

6 quick refresher on this procedure.

7 We actually have it up on a 

8 screen, the December 1, 2009, Rev 1. If --

9 were about to scroll down and I was going to 

10 take my best shot in getting it up there, but 

11 if you would take over, I would greatly 

12 appreciate it.

13 MS. BEHLING: Okay. I will have 

14 Hans do that. He is prepared to do that.

15 DR. BEHLING: Yes. I think the 

16 critical part was that, among the changes that 

17 was needed was a retraction of one of the sub18 tasks that came at the request of the CDC 

19 contract people. 

20 That was one of the changes, but 

21 in essence, the sub-tasks that we have 
29

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1 identified remain pretty much the same as they 

2 were even in the previous form because that 

3 was what we had used in two other PERs, and 

4 they are identified. If you can put on the 

5 screen -- put on page 6. There is a summary 

6 of the sub-tasks, one through five, that you 

7 can just kind of scan over.

8 We have used those particular sub9 tasks, not just in the review of PER-12, but 

10 also in the PR for Blockson and lymphoma. So 

11 I don't know. Rather than read it, if it is 

12 available on-screen, I guess the people there 

13 at the meeting can just simply read the 

14 various five sub-tasks that are really 

15 essential here in understanding how we propose 

16 to review PERs.

17 Steve, are you in a position to 

18 read that on-screen?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, we have it up 

20 on the screen right now, Hans. 

21 DR. MAURO: To back up a little 
30

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1 bit, when we originally proposed it in our 

2 proposal and then used it, the item that we 

3 withdrew was one that really didn't serve us 

4 well. It had to do with the genesis of the 

5 change.

6 Step 1 in our procedure was, okay, 

7 let us first describe why was this PER 

8 necessary, what triggered it, what was the 

9 experience that occurred that necessitated the 

10 change. 

11 We found that trying to 

12 reconstruct the history of the item necessary 

13 to issue the PER sometimes is elusive. All we 

14 can say is that over time it became apparent 

15 that there was a need for a change for certain 

16 procedures as we learned more and NIOSH 

17 learned more. 

18 So we took that first step out and 

19 we start, actually with, okay, given that 

20 there was a need for this -- so we broke it up 

21 into five tasks instead of six. I guess, in 
31

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1 essence, all we really do with the first, I 

2 guess, four steps is relatively simple.

3 We really sort of characterize 

4 what the issue is, what has been changed, what 

5 is the new protocol, the corrective actions 

6 that NIOSH says that, listen, I think we have 

7 to make these changes. These are the kinds of 

8 things we have to do and why, why it is 

9 necessary.

10 Three, this becomes identifying 

11 which cases -- I mentioned earlier -- which 

12 cases have to be fixed. There could be 

13 hundreds of them and to make sure that the 

14 decision -- now sometimes that is an easy one 

15 for us to review because NIOSH says we are 

16 going to review every single case at Savannah 

17 River or whatever. For every case that has 

18 the potential for high-fired uranium exposure, 

19 we are going to review every one of the ones 

20 that have been denied and redo them, or in 

21 some cases -- here is where things get a 
32

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1 little more complicated -- NIOSH says, no, we 

2 really have to review all 1,000 of them or 

3 whatever.

4 We know, as I mentioned earlier, 

5 that if the PoC was less than some number --

6 the number 16 seems to ring in my head for one 

7 of them.

8 DR. BEHLING: John, that is not 

9 necessarily correct.

10 DR. MAURO: Hans, please, take 

11 over.

12 DR. BEHLING: John, for PER-12 the 

13 number of 16 percent is appropriate because it 

14 is based on the generic multiplier of four, 

15 but the lowest threshold for reviewing a dose 

16 reconstruction that is affected by PER is a 

17 variable. It changes from one PER to the 

18 next.

19 In the case of PER-12, which was 

20 also forwarded to the Board in the last three 

21 days, that turns out to be the number because 
33

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1 of a generic multiplier that says a Super S 

2 plutonium has a much longer residency time in 

3 the lung and, therefore, the biokinetics 

4 change and the multiplier there turns out to 

5 be four and it is based on the value that then 

6 sets a lower threshold of 16 point some 

7 percent change of PoC, but that is a variable 

8 that is not constant for all PERs.

9 Again, just to review, sub-task 2 

10 in most instances will possibly be a fairly 

11 detailed analysis that may require the basis 

12 for the PER. In the case of PER-12, we were 

13 able to skip that part for the most part 

14 because OTIB-49 was, in fact, independently 

15 reviewed ahead of the review of the PER-12 as 

16 we have submitted in the last few days.

17 So we can kind of gloss over sub18 task 2, but what was really important, I 

19 think, to the discussion regarding the issue 

20 of PERs is how to identify the number of 

21 audits that need to be done, which is also a 
34

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1 highly variable one and that is defined in 

2 sub-task four.

3 If we get a chance -- I don't know 

4 if we will even have a chance to talk about 

5 PER-12 -- we can actually go over that 

6 methodology by which we have to define which 

7 types of audits need to be done on dose 

8 reconstructions and the actual number of 

9 minimum number.

10 So those are the key issues here 

11 in sub-task four, is to define really which 

12 types of PERs need to be audited because they 

13 will be classified based on how the PER 

14 affects the dose reconstruction, and in the 

15 case of PER-12 you will see that we have the 

16 minimum identified ten dose reconstructions 

17 that need to be audited, based on the type of 

18 target organ that was assessed and the 

19 methodology that was used in assessing the 

20 original dose reconstruction. 

21 I don't know if we have time to 
35

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1 look at PER-12 today, but that will become 

2 much more self-evident when we have that 

3 discussion.

4 CHAIR MUNN: We may or may not 

5 take a look at it. Our primary concern -- at 

6 least my primary concern right now is to make 

7 sure that we hash through this PER issue 

8 itself. 

9 DR. MAURO: One last thing I would 

10 like to add; in addition to approving our 

11 procedure when reviewing PERs, there is 

12 another outstanding element of it. 

13 The last step in all of our PER 

14 reviews is to review some real cases, go in --

15 there may be hundreds of cases that were 

16 redone and the last question is, okay, here is 

17 the process NIOSH went through to describe the 

18 kinds of changes needed, the selected cases 

19 that they were going to redo and let's say we 

20 go through the process, and everything is 

21 great. The changes that were needed look 
36

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1 really -- are right. They fixed the problems. 

2 Not only that, all the cases that they 

3 decided to pick and the criteria they used to 

4 select the cases were right on target, but 

5 there is one last step.

6 Here is where we are sort of stuck 

7 right now. That is, okay, then we go in, and 

8 we go grab a few cases, some cross-section, 

9 some selected number of cases to see if, in 

10 fact, they were, in fact, correctly in accord 

11 with the new protocol in redoing the cases --

12 high-fired plutonium, thoracic lymphoma, all 

13 of these -- Blockson -- and the issues related 

14 to the radon, or whatever it is.

15 Our instructions are very clear. 

16 We don't do that last step until the cases are 

17 selected by a combined effort between the DR 

18 Subcommittee and the Procedures Subcommittee.

19 So, for example, right now on PER20 12 Hans has pointed out -- I believe, Hans, 

21 you said anywhere from seven to 12 cases might 
37

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1 be needed to actually capture the range of 

2 kinds of issues that need to be explored to 

3 evaluate how well the PER was implemented, but 

4 to date no cases have been selected.

5 DR. BEHLING: Yes, and John, the 

6 difficulty is, if we have a chance to discuss 

7 PER-12, you will see a matrix that identifies 

8 at least 10 permutations that potentially 

9 affect the dose reconstruction reevaluation 

10 protocols. 

11 If you want to at least test one 

12 case for each of the 10 different 

13 methodologies that will affect dose 

14 reconstruction involving Super S plutonium, 

15 you would then have to be in a position to 

16 identify -- of the universe of 1,573 dose 

17 reconstructions that have been reevaluated 

18 using OTIB-49, you may have to select ten out 

19 of the 1,573 cases.

20 Now, we don't have access to those 

21 cases. So the selection criteria has to first 
38

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1 start with NIOSH who will first identify what 

2 those 1,573 cases are, and then segregate them 

3 on the basis of the type of organ that was 

4 assessed and the initial methodology by which 

5 that initial dose reconstruction was based on: 

6 whether it was urinalysis, air sampling data, 

7 fecal analysis, et cetera.

8 So this is a complex process that, 

9 at a minimum, requires NIOSH to identify those 

10 1,573 cases in the case of PER-12 and then, I 

11 guess, the Board or the Working Groups for 

12 Procedures and Dose Reconstruction as a 

13 combination may have to sit down and then 

14 select perhaps one for each of the 10 

15 different methodologies that are prescribed in 

16 PER-12.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you, Hans. I 

18 appreciate that.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Wanda.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes?

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is Ziemer. I 
39

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cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

Procedures.

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1 just have a question here. We are focusing on 

2 sub-task 4 here, right, on the audit of the 

3 dose reconstructions?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Actually, we are 

5 focusing a great deal more than I had wanted 

6 us to.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, here is my 

8 question. I have a note on our November 

9 meeting that we were going to or did ask that 

10 that sub-task 4 be handled by the Dose 

11 Reconstruction Subcommittee, actually. Did we 

12 formalize that? I have that in my notes. I 

13 didn't compare that with the --

14 CHAIR MUNN: Well, one of the 

15 reasons we haven't formalized any of it is 

16 because we haven't identified what our 

17 procedure is going to be, whether this is, in 

18 fact, going to be the procedure. It is the 

19 one that is being recommended by SC&A, but we 

20 are not sure that that is, in fact, what we 

21 are going to do. That is what we are trying 
40

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1 to get to here this morning.

2 So with that thought in mind and 

3 the fact that I think we now understand, both 

4 from the document and from the overview that 

5 we have had from SC&A what the contractor's 

6 position is with respect to their view of how 

7 to proceed, I would like to hear NIOSH's view 

8 of how best to proceed on this. Brant, are 

9 you taking this?

10 DR. ULSH: Yes. Well, that is 

11 actually a good segue. If you could just 

12 leave sub-task 4 up there, because that is 

13 really the one that we have -- well, some 

14 concerns about, and we would like to raise for 

15 the Subcommittee's consideration.

16 I guess it is NIOSH's position 

17 that we feel that, in terms of PER reviews, 

18 the appropriate focus is on the decision 

19 criteria, whether or not we have appropriately 

20 selected or set up rules that will identify 

21 the cases that are affected.
41

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1 We don't see a lot of value in 

2 adding a whole list of DR reviews, simply 

3 because you have a standing committee to do 

4 that, the DR Subcommittee, and they are going 

5 to be selecting DRs to review. 

6 As Paul mentioned, if you would 

7 like to inform the DR Subcommittee, hey, we 

8 have a particular interest in these. Can you 

9 include those in some of the cases that you 

10 select? That is good, but we feel like the DR 

11 reviews are more appropriately handled under 

12 the auspices of the DR Subcommittee.

13 He stepped out. So I don't know 

14 if Stu wants to add anything.

15 CHAIR MUNN: So if I am hearing 

16 you correctly, the current NIOSH position is 

17 that sub-tasks 1, 2 and 3 are fairly well 

18 characterized in the SC&A document. The 

19 question revolves around whether the dose 

20 reconstructions are going to be handled under 

21 the PER review in this Subcommittee or whether 
42

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1 it will be the purview of the Dose 

2 Reconstruction Subcommittee to decide whether 

3 PERs list of redone dose reconstructions 

4 should be reviewed again.

5 DR. ULSH: Well, yes. Now when 

6 the DR Subcommittee picks up the DR to review, 

7 they look at a whole number of factors. One 

8 of those factors presumably would be any PERs 

9 that come to bear on that particular dose 

10 reconstruction.

11 So we don't see a lot of value in 

12 adding a totally separate effort under this 

13 Subcommittee to review additional DRs.

14 DR. MAURO: Could I -- I think 

15 that you are making a good point for 

16 efficiency. Right now, under what we 

17 typically go to our tasks for, we typically 

18 are asked to review 60 cases that are selected 

19 two or three times a year by the Board, and 

20 there is actually a selection protocol to make 

21 sure that we capture different kinds of sites, 
43

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1 different years, et cetera, et cetera, 

2 different PoCs, types of cancers.

3 So there is a fairly formal 

4 process which we have been using for about six 

5 years. What you are saying now is that there 

6 is another criteria that you want to 

7 incorporate. 

8 Now the only concern I have is the 

9 philosophy that is in effect -- the philosophy 

10 originally, which goes way back, the Board 

11 would select two and a half percent of all the 

12 adjudicated claims, whether they passed or 

13 failed, that will meet these criteria, and to 

14 collectively select some set or review by 

15 SC&A, and it had a certain mission.

16 The mission goes right back to the 

17 Act and implementing the intent of the Act. 

18 Now what we have is a specialty area -- and I 

19 could see going either way -- whereby you are 

20 saying, oh, we could very well accommodate the 

21 selection of these cases, whether it is -- in 
44

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1 this case, it is quite a number of cases: 10.

2 By the way, the others don't 

3 demand that number of cases. This one does 

4 because of its complexity.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Well, of course, we 

6 don't know in the future how many.

7 DR. MAURO: That is true. We did 

8 do three, and we know the first two, we were 

9 only going to look at three.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Well, that would be 

11 an arbitrary number depending upon each case.

12 DR. MAURO: Now the question that, 

13 I think, the Board and the Work Group needs to 

14 ask is, do we want to combine the two 

15 together, certainly make it part of the 

16 process of case selection. In other words, we 

17 have a new goal as part of case selection. It 

18 will dilute down -- in other words, we would 

19 have a new goal as part of case selection, it 

20 would be another parameter, namely, let's also 

21 make sure we pick some cases that are 
45

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1 sensitive to this process.

2 I, for one, think they should be 

3 kept separate because I think the PER process 

4 is a very special and important process for 

5 one reason. It represents the maturation of 

6 this program, which is almost like bringing 

7 home the bacon. 

8 In other words, there is a very 

9 long process it goes through where a procedure 

10 is being reviewed and revised, Site Profiles 

11 are being reviewed and revised and there are 

12 lots of cases that are being revisited and the 

13 degree to which that process is, in fact, 

14 effective.

15 That is a very, very important 

16 closure issue in terms of engendering trust 

17 but that is different than what we are doing 

18 under Task 4. It really has a different 

19 objective, and to mix the two together could 

20 cause confusion. 

21 So I would argue the other way, 
46

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1 but I --

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Let me ask a 

3 question, John. Now if we did keep them 

4 separate, when somebody under sub-task 4 under 

5 the PER review were given a dose 

6 reconstruction, would they look at the whole 

7 dose reconstruction in their review or would 

8 they just look at the dose reconstruction 

9 portion of it that was done under the PER?

10 If it came out under the Dose 

11 Reconstruction Subcommittee, they would look 

12 at the whole body of work that was done, I 

13 would assume, from the initial contact all the 

14 way up through any PERs that were done and so 

15 on and so forth, right to the end. But if 

16 they are done under the PER review, I can see 

17 the argument for, well, let's just look at 

18 that portion of the dose reconstruction that 

19 was done in response to the PER, and let's 

20 forget about all the body of work that was 

21 done up to that point.
47

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Hold just a minute. 

2 Ted wants to say something. Somebody on the 

3 phone wants to say something, and I would like 

4 to hear from Stu before we get into this too 

5 deeply. Ted?

6 MR. KATZ: Well, Hans could go 

7 first but the nice thing about what you said, 

8 Steve, I think, is when the -- I mean, Hans 

9 said that the CDC Contracts Office spoke to 

10 this, but it was actually a panel including 

11 Board members, not CDC Contract Officers who 

12 had some thoughts about this procedure, one of

13 which John has already talked about, but they 

14 also had thoughts about this, about the audit.

15 A concern in that discussion, 

16 which I think Steve sort of addresses nicely 

17 in a way, was that, if you were going to do it 

18 separately, as John has said is his 

19 preference, and have these PERs sort of 

20 reviewed independently of doing DR reviews 

21 generally, the concern that was raised by the 
48

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1 panel was, are you going to review the thing 

2 whole-hog, every aspect of the dose 

3 reconstruction or only the aspects related to 

4 the PER.

5 The panel's view was it is sort of 

6 why are we -- if this is about PER, why would 

7 you be reviewing everything else. But 

8 related to that, there was a lot of gray area. 

9 When you are reviewing a PER, if you are 

10 going to be reviewing a dose reconstruction 

11 under a PER, it is probably hard to separate 

12 whether you look at the other stuff or you 

13 just look at what is affected by the PER.

14 In that respect, I would just say 

15 it is kind of nice to do it under the Dose 

16 Reconstruction Subcommittee. You are 

17 reviewing the entire thing, not just limiting 

18 your view to what the PER -- how the PER 

19 affected the dose reconstruction, but the 

20 entire dose reconstruction. You don't have to 

21 worry about that gray area.
49

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1 DR. BEHLING: I think we are 

2 discussing something that is clearly stated 

3 under sub-task 4 under the two bullets. If it 

4 is still up on the board for people to read, 

5 those two bullets will identify whether or not 

6 it is a very limited, focused review of the 

7 PER issue only or in bullet number 2 you may 

8 have to go through the full gamut, depending 

9 on whether or not the original dose 

10 reconstruction was a maximized dose and, if 

11 such, if the PER affects it grossly, you would 

12 then have to potentially redo the whole dose 

13 reconstruction because you no longer want to 

14 maximize doses that at this point in time you 

15 will say, well, we are getting close to the 

16 50th percentile value and we cannot use a 

17 maximized dose.

18 So if you look at those two 

19 bullets, I think the discussion that Steve 

20 started and Ted has had a comment on is really 

21 resolved by those two bullets, if you are in a 
50

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1 position to read that.

2 CHAIR MUNN: We are in a position 

3 to read it and thank you, Hans.

4 Was there someone else on the 

5 phone who was trying to speak because, after 

6 Stu, I would like to hear from the Chair of 

7 the DR Subcommittee, who happens to be on the 

8 line also and must certainly have some opinion 

9 about this.

10 MEMBER GIBSON: Wanda, I have a 

11 question, too.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, Mike?

13 MEMBER GIBSON: When NIOSH does a 

14 -- when they feel the need for a PER and they 

15 establish one, and they go back and relook at 

16 a dose reconstruction, do you just look at the 

17 areas that the PER would review or do you go 

18 back and redo the whole dose?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: No, the 

20 reconstruction is done in accordance with the 

21 Technical Guide that is in place at the time 
51

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1 of the redo. So if, in fact, there have been 

2 other changes to the technical documents that 

3 are used -- that will be used for that case, 

4 the new ones are done. So you don't just do 

5 the PER part. You rework it, if there are --

6 you know, if there haven't been any, then 

7 generally what you are doing is just working 

8 the PER change, but if there had been some --

9 MEMBER GIBSON: You go back and 

10 look?

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And what 

12 Hans mentioned is true. If, in fact, the PER 

13 would put -- if you use the maximizing 

14 approach the first time around and the PER 

15 would put the PoC, looks like, above 45 

16 percent, then you would not use a maximizing 

17 approach. Something, either not an 

18 overestimate or some smaller overestimate that 

19 you would take out, some overestimating 

20 approach that was in the original, if the PER 

21 was pushed above 45 percent.
52

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1 So, yes, as a general rule, it is 

2 not just going to be the PER rework. There 

3 may be other changes as well.

4 DR. ULSH: Especially if you think 

5 about the work flow in terms of doing a dose 

6 reconstruction. Whenever we make a change --

7 say, we updated a TBD or changed a procedure 

8 or something like that, we go through and 

9 modify all of the tools that we use to do dose 

10 reconstruction.

11 So if we have a dose 

12 reconstruction where we are picking it up 

13 again because of a PER particular issue, it 

14 really would be very difficult for us to go 

15 back and recreate that dose reconstruction if 

16 things have changed in the interim, because 

17 the tools have already been updated and it is 

18 just easier to redo the dose reconstruction 

19 essentially from scratch.

20 So that way you ensure that the 

21 current methods are used in all aspects of the 
53

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1 dose reconstruction, including the PERs. 

2 DR. MAURO: By trying to parse it, 

3 would tie the hands of the person doing the 

4 review to make also some judgments of where 

5 one separates the other. So I would say, in 

6 my mind, you've got to let the reviewer --

7 let's say it is Hans -- have the freedom to 

8 say, listen, I have to look at this, to the 

9 extent that I feel I have to look at it to 

10 make sure that I could come out of the back 

11 end of the review and say, yes, they redid the 

12 dose reconstruction and everything that needs 

13 to be factored in to reflect a product that 

14 has a PoC that you can rely on.

15 So I would not want to tie the 

16 hands of the reviewer. Really, the question 

17 becomes -- it is really one of optics in terms 

18 of the public seeing a process at work in 

19 terms of the process being a continuing 

20 reevaluation of performance.

21 The PER, in my mind, is such an 
54

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1 important part of this program that I would 

2 not like to see the reviews of cases relevant 

3 to a particular PER subsumed into the world of 

4 all of these large sets of the PER reviews, 

5 which are there for a totally different 

6 purpose. 

7 I can envision a stand-alone 

8 document on PER-12 that said, great job in the 

9 selection, OTIB-49 is right on target; all the 

10 procedures are laid out, and we went in and we 

11 picked seven -- together, picked seven, 10, 

12 12, whatever the number is that, collectively, 

13 we judge represent a good cross-section of all 

14 the different kinds of situations you could 

15 encounter under PER-12 and OTIB-49, and that 

16 is the last chapter, and we review them, and 

17 everything is fine.

18 This is a very important document 

19 to have on the record a stand-alone that 

20 demonstrates the Board has taken a real 

21 serious look at this, and they are comfortable 
55

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1 with it.

2 To sort of blend it into the other 

3 part of the program where we are doing our two 

4 and a half percent cross-section for other

5 reasons, broader reasons, I think, would do a 

6 disservice to the PER process.

7 CHAIR MUNN: I am not going to 

8 express my personal opinion on that until we 

9 have heard from Mark. Mark, we are doing such 

10 a stellar job getting through the dose 

11 reconstructions that are necessary in that 

12 Subcommittee. What is your view with respect 

13 to the best method for approaching this?

14 MEMBER GRIFFON: Well, I actually 

15 -- I think you guys have hit all the issues 

16 that I was thinking of, but I am actually 

17 probably convinced, mainly by just what John 

18 said, that I think it might make a lot more 

19 sense to keep it -- well, number one, I think 

20 it should -- I really do think we need to 

21 review some figures, because I agree that 
56

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1 there is an important product coming out of 

2 the overall Board review.

3 Two, I think that I might agree 

4 with John now. Originally, I was thinking it 

5 made more sense to select the cases and do it 

6 in the DR Subcommittee. But for a couple of 

7 reasons, I think it might make more sense to 

8 keep it separated.

9 One was just the mechanics of it, 

10 like John was suggesting, that it might be 

11 confusing to be transferring back and forth. 

12 In most of the cases, even all of the cases, 

13 we are doing in our two and a half percent.

14 The other is we also have enough 

15 crossover on the two Subcommittees. In fact, 

16 at one point I think we all went to the 

17 Committee. So we've got a lot of crossover on 

18 the two, and I think there would be enough --

19 you know, we would maintain consistency there. 

20 So I don't see that as a problem.

21 So I would prefer, actually, to do 
57

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1 a -- I mean, I am satisfied with the procedure 

2 the way it was developed, and I think 

3 selecting the cases and doing the reviews on 

4 the Procedures Subcommittee might make the 

5 most sense.

6 I am -- I think, as we get into 

7 this, I think we are going to find that there 

8 is -- selecting the cases might be quite 

9 difficult, especially -- well, maybe for PER10 12 it will be the most difficult, but I know 

11 that 10 different types of methodologies that 

12 Hans is referring to -- that is not something 

13 that NIOSH simply has in the database. I 

14 think they have to open up case by case to 

15 find those. So this could be a time-consuming 

16 activity on the part of NIOSH.

17 Notwithstanding that, I think that 

18 the whole thing, may be best served to stay in 

19 the Procedures Subcommittee.

20 CHAIR MUNN: I guess I don't quite 

21 understand your last comment, since as I 
58

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1 understand it, NIOSH will be having to do that 

2 under any circumstance.

3 MEMBER GRIFFON: Well, yes. That 

4 wouldn't matter, where it is at. I am just 

5 pointing that out as a issue. I was thinking, 

6 you know, case selection; how difficult could 

7 that be. But this example shows how difficult 

8 it might be, is all I am pointing out.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Well, and it is going 

10 to have to be --

11 MEMBER GRIFFON: Would happen in 

12 either place, yes.

13 CHAIR MUNN: It is going to have 

14 to be done, regardless of where any audit 

15 takes place. Of course, you realize, Mark, I 

16 am just as happy to give your Subcommittee the 

17 responsibility as you are to give it to this 

18 one.

19 MEMBER GRIFFON: I thought I made 

20 a strong argument of keeping it with you.

21 CHAIR MUNN: And I am thinking I 
59

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1 have just as solid an argument for giving it 

2 to you. 

3 Paul, do you have a position on 

4 this that you would like to express at this 

5 time or do you want to think about it a little 

6 more?

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I think 

8 originally I felt like it should be with the 

9 Dose Reconstruction group, in part because it 

10 may be that it is being reviewed more 

11 comprehensively, not just for some changes, 

12 and maybe that remains to be seen yet. 

13 The Dose Reconstruction 

14 Subcommittee, in principle, has been -- they 

15 have established sort of selection criteria 

16 and approaches to doing these things. 

17 Granted, there is a fair amount of overlap 

18 between our two groups, but at least initially 

19 it seemed to make sense to say, well, 

20 basically, it is a review of dose 

21 reconstruction, even though in this case it is 
60

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1 driven somewhat differently by a particular 

2 set of circumstances that you are selecting 

3 from sort of a subgroup of the total pool. 

4 But that was my initial reaction.

5 I don't know, but we might have to 

6 try it. Maybe initially -- and again, I am 

7 talking off the top of my head, but maybe 

8 initially we would have to do something like, 

9 okay, let's -- either Dose Reconstruction or

10 Procedures Review select a group of cases, 

11 examples, and then let the other group take a 

12 look at that and see if they concur.

13 Maybe we have to look at this 

14 together and kind of get a feel for it. I 

15 don't know, but to some extent we have to get 

16 an idea of how things work.

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: Paul, this is 

18 Mark. I mean, I could see a case for either 

19 place also. I think, if it does stay in the 

20 Procedures Subcommittee, I would argue that 

21 the review methodology should be consistent 
61

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1 with what we do in the Dose Reconstruction.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

3 MEMBER GRIFFON: So I don't see 

4 that as being such a problem, and if we kept 

5 it in the -- if we switched it to the DR 

6 Subcommittee, I would certainly treat it as a 

7 separate work product, not mix it in with all 

8 the other --

9 CHAIR MUNN: Absolutely, yes.

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: You know, I think 

11 we could handle it either way. I am with you, 

12 Paul. Maybe we need to give it a trial run, 

13 one way or the other and see how it works.

14 Also, I think that goes for the 

15 procedure, too. We may find that we have to 

16 revisit the procedure after a few months, the 

17 SC&A's procedure. We may find that we may 

18 have some problems in terms of it down the 

19 line. We can always ask for a modification.

20 CHAIR MUNN: It is very clear from 

21 my perspective that, whenever we have any 
62

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1 review of rework that has been done under a 

2 PER, that that review would be done in a group 

3 of separate cases. They should not be 

4 included into any routine process that we have 

5 gone through. But I can't see that that would 

6 be any real problem for the DR Subcommittee. 

7 We would simply make a selection 

8 based on slightly different criteria than we 

9 usually use, and the assessment with respect 

10 to how many need to be reviewed would be more 

11 of a thorny problem than actually the review 

12 itself.

13 There is no reason why that group 

14 shouldn't stand alone, as I see it.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is Ziemer 

16 again. A question I have today is what level 

17 -- do we need to decide this today or are we 

18 just discussing it kind of in general terms? 

19 What is the end point for this particular 

20 discussion? What are we trying to get to?

21 CHAIR MUNN: My hope for the end 
63

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1 point was to have a decision on which 

2 direction we should recommend the Board take 

3 at our next teleconference meeting, which is 

4 coming up here in just a little over a week. 

5 I had hoped that is what we could do, is get 

6 the Subcommittee's recommendation as to how to 

7 proceed with the PERs.

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: Wanda, this is 

9 Mark. You can make a recommendation. I will 

10 support either way right now.

11 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Hold on 

12 just a moment. Emily has a question.

13 MS. HOWELL: I just wanted to 

14 better understand what the Subcommittee and 

15 SC&A sees as the path forward with the number 

16 of PER reviews. I mean, from the NIOSH 

17 perspective, NIOSH is going to continue to 

18 issue PERs throughout the existence of the 

19 program as necessary. So I would assume then 

20 that the need to audit dose reconstructions 

21 that are covered by a PER would be similarly 
64

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1 of an ongoing nature.

2 DR. MAURO: I could help answer 

3 that. I see two processes moving forward. 

4 One is selection of the cases, the 60 cases 

5 per year. That is ongoing, and it is well 

6 established, and the criteria for selection of 

7 it.

8 What we are introducing now is 

9 another process for selecting cases for a very 

10 focused purpose. Now so I see them both 

11 moving forward.

12 How to script the former, of 

13 course, is well established. The latter, 

14 right now we are deliberating on how best to 

15 be done. By way of efficiency -- and Steve 

16 just pointed this out while we were talking --

17 is, let's say today NIOSH says, okay, here is 

18 10 cases that we think meet the criteria for 

19 PER-12 that we would recommend being reviewed 

20 because they capture different dimensions of 

21 the problem and they are put before us or they 
65

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1 put it before the Subcommittee or either one 

2 of the Subcommittees, however that is decided.

3 I would like to point out there is 

4 an efficiency to this. When that is delivered 

5 to us, one of the first things SC&A should do 

6 is say, oh, by the way, you see that one right 

7 there, number six, we already reviewed that. 

8 We are reviewing it right now as part of the 

9 47 cases that we currently have in front of 

10 us.

11 I would argue that -- and I would 

12 like, to Hans' reaction -- for all intents and 

13 purposes, we have the ten, but we really only 

14 have to do nine, because one of them is 

15 already captured. That one just happened to, 

16 like, pass all by itself.

17 In other words, you know, you 

18 folks went ahead and picked the best ten that 

19 you think would work. The Work Group could 

20 approve it. It goes forward, but then the 

21 onus is on us to make sure we are not doing 
66

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1 one twice.

2 In other words, I could see some 

3 efficiencies going out because we are doing 47 

4 right now and I could tell you I have noticed 

5 from the -- and Hans certainly could weigh in 

6 on this. I believe I have seen some high7 fired plutonium cases that were revisited and 

8 returned as part of the audit of our 47 cases 

9 and that could very well be one of the cases 

10 that would serve us well also at this part. 

11 So in a way, there could be some 

12 efficiencies built in, but still keep them 

13 separate.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Let me see if I can 

15 respond partially to what I think the question 

16 is. It appears that there are actually two 

17 selection processes that have to go forward. 

18 That has not been well established so far.

19 One is what PERs are going to be 

20 selected and the other is what cases are 

21 selected under that PER.
67

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1 MS. HOWELL: Right.

2 CHAIR MUNN: So we have -- in 

3 terms of what do we do now, one of the 

4 questions that I had hoped to resolve here is 

5 how do you choose the PER and with what 

6 frequency, of what number? 

7 We are dealing with a total set of 

8 unknowns. We have no idea how many PERs we 

9 are going to have and we have no idea how 

10 complex they may or may not be. So we are 

11 starting from ground zero with that selection, 

12 and the same is essentially true with respect 

13 to the dose reconstructions themselves.

14 So I hope that --

15 MS. HOWELL: That helps. I guess 

16 my question is I am just -- it seems like, 

17 just as with the dose reconstructions, the 

18 number of dose reconstruction -- PER dose 

19 reconstruction reviews is just going to be an 

20 ongoing, rolling, continuing thing as you have 

21 additional PERs that come up and it is not 
68

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1 clear to me -- I did read the SC&A document 

2 when it first came out but I don't remember it 

3 well enough right now to know if it answers 

4 this question, but would you only be doing PER 

5 dose reconstruction audit of cases that you 

6 had done a full PER review of?

7 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes.

8 MS. HOWELL: So -- and is there

9 any sort of link numerically, if we are 

10 reviewing this PER, then we want to get two 

11 percent or whatever of the cases affected by 

12 that PER or is it just more of a kind of like 

13 how we look at sites when we are selecting 

14 individual dose reconstructions where there is 

15 no numeric requirement. It is just kind of 

16 like we want to make sure it is 

17 representative?

18 CHAIR MUNN: The latter is 

19 correct.

20 MS. HOWELL: Okay. So then I am 

21 trying to understand, then, whether the 
69

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1 ultimate -- I am asking these questions, so 

2 you understand, because I am trying to make 

3 sure where this kind of fits within the 

4 different subcommittees, where it is the 

5 Board's work and the SC&A work, and I just 

6 want to make sure I have a clear 

7 understanding.

8 So is the ultimate goal from 

9 reviewing the PER dose reconstructions to 

10 validate the PER or is it to validate the dose 

11 reconstructions; because it seems like, 

12 depending on which subcommittee you make the 

13 selection under, it could be either one, 

14 because you are saying that you sometimes 

15 review PER dose reconstructions under the Dose 

16 Reconstruction Subcommittee.

17 DR. MAURO: That would be -- that 

18 will happen not by design.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Serendipity.

20 DR. MAURO: Serendipity. To 

21 answer your question, though, which PERs go to 
70

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1 the Work Group, this is a lot like which Site 

2 Profiles. Usually, the criteria -- and this 

3 is a judgmental call that is collectively made 

4 by the Board. Usually, it is at full Board 

5 meeting. 

6 SC&A would provide a list of here 

7 are all the Site Profiles that currently are 

8 underway but have not been reviewed by SC&A, 

9 and right next to them would be the number of 

10 cases that are affected by that profile.

11 What happened at the last meeting 

12 is the Board looked at it and said, well, 

13 listen, gee, you know, Kansas City, Pacific 

14 Northwest -- these are some big ones that have 

15 lots of cases and if we are -- you know, so 

16 one of the criteria that often is used on why 

17 we pick a particular Site Profile -- or the 

18 Board -- is the number of cases.

19 Another criteria is if there is an 

20 impending SEC. If everyone -- this happened 

21 with Brookhaven. We, a while back, were 
71

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1 authorized to review the Brookhaven Site 

2 Profile with an eye toward the fact that a 

3 Brookhaven ER was coming out within six 

4 months.

5 So in other words, so the Board --

6 it is really a collective judgment on which 

7 ones are important to look at, how much money 

8 is left in the pot for the rest of the year. 

9 So SC&A doesn't get involved with the 

10 selection of which PERs, but there is general 

11 agreement that, yes, PERs need to be reviewed. 

12 It is very important and part of the overall 

13 mandate for the Board to look at them. 

14 How many and which ones are looked 

15 at, I believe, is a judgment call that is made 

16 by the Board or -- I am not quite sure of the 

17 protocol -- or the Work Group. I am not sure 

18 at what level those decisions will be made. 

19 Maybe, Ted, you have a sense.

20 MR. KATZ: Well, I am going to 

21 agree with you. It is a judgment call. At 
72

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1 least, so far it has been a judgment call by 

2 the Board.

3 Just to clarify, SC&A is not 

4 involved in making that judgment call but SC&A 

5 did assist the Board last time by preparing a 

6 matrix. It covered certain criteria like 

7 number of cases affected but also the 

8 complexity of the changes involved and so on 

9 and I think that is helpful for the Board. 

10 Those are valid considerations and 

11 this Work Group was going to consider those 

12 criteria and consider whether they needed to 

13 be added to or subtracted from or whatever, 

14 and that was part of what was going to come 

15 out of this Work Group as a recommendation to 

16 the full Board. Are those criteria the good 

17 ones, all the good ones we need, or do they 

18 need more or whatever?

19 DR. MAURO: But, remember, that is 

20 a lot different. There is the selection of 

21 the PERs that should be looked at, and we do 
73

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1 the best we can to give you the ammunition you 

2 need to help make the judgments, but the 

3 selection of the cases --

4 CHAIR MUNN: Well, and Steve has a 

5 list up right now.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: This is from the 

7 protocol that John developed. This is 

8 Attachment 1, and I guess it was 32 PERs 

9 total, and it gives a description of it, the 

10 number of cases, and the level of complexity.

11 CHAIR MUNN: And it will 

12 definitely be a Board decision to make, but as 

13 long as the Board has the full set of data 

14 from which to make that judgment, then we 

15 really don't have to worry about it. 

16 What we need to do is make a 

17 recommendation as to how many we should -- and 

18 how frequently we should check the PERs for 

19 potential review by SC&A.

20 MR. KATZ: And when we discussed 

21 this at the Board -- just to remind you, too, 
74

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1 about selection of PERs, the other reason I 

2 had argued at the Board meeting it should be a 

3 Board decision also, because you will have 

4 members who have conflicts; and the smaller 

5 your subgroup, the more limited you are, then, 

6 in making these choices. So it makes sense to 

7 use the full Board, and then you will always 

8 have an adequate number of people to deal with 

9 that consideration.

10 DR. MAURO: The only thing that is 

11 not up here -- and I try to do this and it is 

12 a little risky is give you a price tag. In 

13 other words, some of them are more complex, 

14 and they may cost a little more, but at least 

15 -- you know, one of the things that is 

16 important that we have been doing -- it is 

17 almost like a new thing for cost control is, 

18 when we give you a menu -- so here are all the 

19 Site Profiles. Here are all the PERs. Here 

20 are all the procedures that have not been 

21 reviewed to date, and here is how much --
75

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1 right now, we've got $1.5 million in the bank 

2 for this year.

3 So, in effect, you've got limited 

4 resources.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: And you have to decide 

7 how best to invest that money. So I do the 

8 best I can to let you know how much is left, 

9 because you have committed this much. It 

10 turns out there is a certain amount of money 

11 that, for all intents and purposes, best we 

12 can tell this committee -- we add up. We 

13 think we can do all that work, deliver all 

14 those products to you, but you still have 1.5 

15 million. Then you say, okay, we've got 1.5 

16 million. What do you want to do with that 

17 money? I mean, in theory, you could spend it 

18 all on PERs or you could say, no, no, no, I 

19 want to save some for some other Site Profile; 

20 I want to save some money for SECs that may be 

21 coming down the line.
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1 So all we can do is give you as 

2 much information as we can regarding the 

3 nature and complexity of the report, some 

4 metric like these, what we believe would 

5 possibly the cost to do it and then 

6 collectively you decide how you would like to 

7 task SC&A.

8 Right now, we are talking about 

9 something very narrow: just the cases that 

10 really represent cases that have to be 

11 reviewed in order to complete our review of 

12 PER and right now that job is not done. We 

13 are not finished. 

14 We have delivered a report but it 

15 is stopped without the cases and without a 

16 review of the cases where we come out the back 

17 end and said, yes, we reviewed the appropriate 

18 representative cases that capture the ten 

19 different dimensions of the problems, and 

20 every single one of them turned out perfect. 

21 That is a very powerful statement, an 
77

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1 endorsement. 

2 Without having the ability to say 

3 that in that PER work product that is sitting 

4 on the shelf somewhere or delivered to the 

5 public -- and that is why I would like to keep 

6 it clean, not somehow confounded with the 

7 selection of the cases that we do under task 

8 one. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: No, they would be 

10 kept separately. Regardless of where we do 

11 it, they need to be kept separately. 

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Wanda, this is 

13 Ziemer. One additional comment. I think 

14 Emily's questions were appropriate, because 

15 one thing we haven't done is -- and by we, I 

16 am talking, I think, about the Board generally 

17 -- and that is make a decision as to whether 

18 we are going to look at a certain fraction of 

19 the total PER cases, as we have done with the 

20 total number of cases: you know, some 

21 percentage versus simply each time arbitrarily 
78

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1 selecting a certain number of cases that 

2 somehow relates to the total available. But I 

3 don't think we have ever come up with a --

4 sort of a set policy on what fraction of the 

5 total of those kind of cases we would look at.

6 CHAIR MUNN: No, we have not. We 

7 haven't even attempted to discuss that, and 

8 since the number of PERs that are available to 

9 us is likely to change from month to month, 

10 this is new territory for us.

11 It is time for us to take a break. 

12 I would like to do that, like for everyone to 

13 give some thought to what we have just been 

14 discussing. 

15 I think I am prepared to make a 

16 suggestion with respect to our recommendation 

17 to the Board when we get back, but consider 

18 what we have said and I will talk about 

19 recommendation and we will have further 

20 discussion, if necessary, on whether we need 

21 to clarify points as we go to the Board.
79

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1 DR. BEHLING: Wanda, can I make a 

2 quick comment before we break?

3 CHAIR MUNN: Certainly. Go ahead, 

4 Hans.

5 DR. BEHLING: Yes. There is a 

6 small fly in the ointment here in the number 

7 of dose reconstructions that we would 

8 potentially identify for recommendation to be 

9 audited is really something that cannot be 

10 done until you actually do sub-tasks 1 through 

11 3 for each PER because it is at that point 

12 that you identify the complexity of the PER 

13 and the types of mutations or the number of 

14 mutations that come into play here.

15 In the case of PER-12, if you have 

16 had a chance to look at it, in Table 2 of PER17 12 review, I have identified ten potential 

18 permutations. It isn't until you actually 

19 review the PER that you come to that wisdom of 

20 identifying the minimum number.

21 So in response to Emily Howell's 
80

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1 comments: is it a percentage, is it a number. 

2 Yes, it is probably a minimum number that we 

3 can identify, but it is a number that we don't 

4 know up front.

5 So that in the attachment for the 

6 document that you have in front of you, we are 

7 not in a position to identify on behalf of 

8 each PER that has yet to be reviewed the 

9 number of cases that we would potentially 

10 recommend for auditing in terms of dose 

11 reconstruction audit. That wisdom only comes 

12 after you actually do the review and it is 

13 part of the first three sub-tasks that allow 

14 you to make this decision.

15 MR. KATZ: Right. Hans, the 

16 critical factor that you just laid out is it 

17 doesn't come under the rubric of doing a 

18 sample of -- of auditing or reviewing the 

19 sample of dose reconstructions. It is guided 

20 by the content of the PER.

21 DR. BEHLING: Yes.
81

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1 CHAIR MUNN: All right. We are on 

2 a 15-minute break. We will be back at 11:05.

3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

4 matter went off the record at 10:47 a.m. and 

5 resumed at 11:04 p.m.)

6 CHAIR MUNN: We will go ahead and 

7 see if we can get started here, even though 

8 Mark's buy-in on this will probably be a 

9 necessary thing. So if anyone is aware of a 

10 click on the line which indicates Mark might 

11 be joining us, please do stop us and let us 

12 know.

13 Having discussed this process and 

14 given considerable thought to it over the last 

15 few weeks in both the Dose Reconstruction 

16 Subcommittee and in this one, it is my 

17 proposal that we recommend as a Subcommittee 

18 to the Board at our -- I believe it is March 

19 31st -- teleconference that we proceed in this 

20 manner: 

21 Annually, SC&A will present to us 
82

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1 the universe of PERs -- that is, to the full 

2 Board -- well in advance of an upcoming 

3 meeting so that the Board members will have an 

4 opportunity to fully understand the PERs that 

5 are available for review.

6 Then, if the Board members 

7 themselves have additions that they would like 

8 to make to that recommendation, they will have 

9 an adequate opportunity to do so prior to the 

10 meeting.

11 At the meeting, one of the agenda 

12 items then would be for the Board to select 

13 whatever number of PERs the Board feels is 

14 appropriate for review in the coming year. 

15 This, hopefully, will also give SC&A an 

16 opportunity to do some budget thinking with 

17 regard to what that may cost.

18 DR. MAURO: I would only make one 

19 suggestion. We hold our full Board meetings 

20 about once every two months. I would say, 

21 rather than have it as annual, as the date for 
83

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1 the next meeting is coming up, like this one, 

2 and the agenda is being developed for that, I 

3 think it is probably -- it may turn out in the 

4 interim a number of PERs may have been opened 

5 up, just like there may have been a number of 

6 Site Profiles.

7 I think that, to hold ourselves to 

8 annually, I would assume to say, this is to be 

9 determined by the Board when they want to hear 

10 from SC&A, as opposed to automatically making 

11 it once a year.

12 CHAIR MUNN: This would not be 

13 written in stone. This is my recommendation 

14 for our initial cut at this. As is always the 

15 case, when -- I think our experience during 

16 the last few years has been whenever you have 

17 brought to our attention the fact that there 

18 is an outstanding issue that should be 

19 addressed, we have taken that into 

20 consideration and in most cases have 

21 authorized you to go forward and do so.
84

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1 I can't imagine that this 

2 particular situation would be any different. 

3 I am simply suggesting that, as a routine item 

4 for annual consideration and one that you 

5 could incorporate into your budgeting process, 

6 this kind of presentation be made to the Board 

7 so that the Board have an opportunity to make 

8 any additional recommendations they might have 

9 and we could all be on the same page at the 

10 same time.

11 DR. MAURO: This kind of 

12 information is always available to us. It is 

13 just really a matter of when the Board would 

14 like to hear from us.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. Yes, and that 

16 is why I am suggesting that we do this at 

17 least annually. 

18 I would then suggest that SC&A 

19 would perform Sections 1 through 3 -- the Sub20 tasks 1 through 3 as they have done in the 

21 past with respect to the procedure itself for 
85

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1 evaluation, and present to the Dose 

2 Reconstruction Subcommittee your assessment of 

3 the number of dose reconstructions which 

4 should be done in that specific case. 

5 Since there is no way for us to 

6 second-guess what that might be, it appears 

7 logical that your assessment would be the 

8 basis for any decision that would be made.

9 I would suggest that the final 

10 decision with respect to the number and the 

11 criteria to be used then be left in the hands 

12 of the Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee and 

13 that those reconstructions, whatever their 

14 number may be, whether it is five or whether 

15 it is 25 or whether it is 50, be handled as a 

16 separate cohort, not to be mixed in any way 

17 except that some may be duplicated. We, of 

18 course, would not want to duplicate -- and 

19 that the end result of those audits then as a 

20 final step be incorporated into a final report 

21 which would essentially incorporate what you 
86

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1 have in your current procedure as Sub-task 4.

2 That is my expectation of 

3 recommendation to the Board. Does anyone have 

4 any contrary suggestions or do you feel that 

5 we are off-track in any way? I feel certain, 

6 if the Board doesn't agree with us, we will 

7 hear from them.

8 MR. KATZ: Well, just, I think you 

9 need to supplement it. You need to make a 

10 recommendation about the criteria for 

11 selecting PERs that the Board is going to 

12 consider. SC&A has this proposal, this table 

13 of criteria for how to select PERs, but you 

14 haven't given your opinion about it.

15 CHAIR MUNN: No.

16 MR. KATZ: If that is adequate, if 

17 you want more --

18 DR. MAURO: Could I help a little 

19 with the criteria a bit? The perfect example 

20 -- the reason we picked a number is --

21 MR. KATZ: No, no, no. You are 
87

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1 mistaken. I am talking about the selection of 

2 PERs. SC&A did a nice job of laying out what 

3 it thought were some important factors for the 

4 Board to consider, but the Board wanted to 

5 hear from the Work Group what its 

6 recommendations are, because -- and in fact, 

7 you commented in that Work Group meeting that 

8 you wanted to consider those factors that SC&A 

9 used to lay out a chart of possible PERs and 

10 how you might collect them. 

11 CHAIR MUNN: So?

12 MS. KATZ: Your Work Group needs 

13 to either say we like the criteria that SC&A 

14 used as factors to consider or there are other 

15 factors we would like to see in these to 

16 consider which PERs to select, if there are 

17 other factors that come to mind to inform the 

18 Work Group.

19 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Perhaps 

20 we need to try to do that today, if we are 

21 going to do that.
88

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1 MR. KATZ: Steve, do you have -- I 

2 am thinking that there was a table that had at 

3 least one more factor than what was showing

4 there that was presented to the Board when you 

5 guys presented PERs for consideration. 

6 DR. MAURO: But you got to have a 

7 column with a price tag. 

8 MR. KATZ: I don't think that was 

9 a factor from which to select. 

10 DR. MAURO: I don't know.

11 MR. KATZ: It was complexity, 

12 number of cases.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: This is all I have.

14 MR. KATZ: This isn't the table I 

15 am thinking of.

16 CHAIR MUNN: I remember 

17 discussions of complexity. I remember -- of 

18 course, number of cases is obvious.

19 DR. ULSH: Just so I understand, 

20 John, if I look at it row by row, is this a 

21 list of all unreviewed PERs or has there been 
89

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1 some filtering applied?

2 DR. MAURO: No. I think we have a 

3 list of everything, every PER, and some of 

4 them we have looked at. We have looked at 

5 this one. I think PER-9 may be here 

6 somewhere. In other words, I think our intent 

7 is -- what I try to do is keep a complete list 

8 of every PER and make it clear which ones you 

9 have already looked at, where it is. 

10 For example, on 12 we have looked 

11 at it. There are nine here. I know nine, 12 

12 and there was maybe 13. So we looked at that. 

13 I think the asterisk says we looked at it. 

14 Do you know which ones we have reviewed 

15 already?

16 CHAIR MUNN: No, you looked at the 

17 science. You looked at the complexity. You 

18 looked at the number of cases and was there 

19 one other criterion. I think probably I was 

20 thinking there should be another criterion.

21 MR. KATZ: Kathy was trying to 
90

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1 speak. Kathy, do you have something?

2 MS. BEHLING: The only thing I was 

3 going to say is the Attachment 1 does include 

4 all of the PERs we are currently aware of. I 

5 believe there are 32. 

6 The reason that they are ranked 

7 the way they are, they are presented the way 

8 they are, is because we did try to put those 

9 PERs that we felt the Board might be most 

10 interested in looking at at the top of the 

11 list. So when I went out and generated this 

12 list, I first of all looked at the number of 

13 cases that were potentially involved, and also 

14 the level of complexity. That is a two-part 

15 thing.

16 First of all, how complex was the 

17 selection criteria and for PER-12, as Hans has 

18 indicated, that was a fairly complex selection 

19 process for what cases will be looked at. 

20 Then thirdly, we looked at the 

21 science involved. How complex was the science 
91

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1 involved and how much rework had to be done to 

2 go back to these dose reconstructions? But 

3 all of the PERs are listed in Attachment 1 of 

4 our proposed procedure but they are just 

5 ranked by those that we thought you might be 

6 most interested in looking at.

7 MR. KATZ: Thanks, Kathy. You 

8 actually answered my question. I thought 

9 there was another element, and it is really 

10 that there are two elements in the single 

11 column.

12 MS. BEHLING: Right.

13 MR. KATZ: You have the selection 

14 criteria complexity and you have the science 

15 complexity. I recall that there was another 

16 and that is the other factor. They are just 

17 both in the same column under level of 

18 complexity.

19 CHAIR MUNN: And as much as I 

20 would like to be able to say yes, it would be 

21 nice to have John's assessment of cost 
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1 involved -- I think the cost was the other 

2 element that I was thinking of at the time 

3 that we had discussed it earlier -- but it is 

4 very difficult for me to see how such a cost 

5 estimate could be made until the Dose 

6 Reconstruction Committee's decision with 

7 respect to the variable number of cases can be 

8 seen.

9 DR. MAURO: That is true. When I 

10 originally did the cost, we originally were 

11 talking about three and that was a number we 

12 just plucked out of the air; we'll do three. 

13 But now I am starting to realize, no, 

14 sometimes three is not going to be enough.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 DR. MAURO: Now whether or not 

17 this PER-12 is the unusual one where you had 

18 so many different cases you need to really get 

19 the cross-section, I don't know, but you are 

20 right.

21 So when I put a cost up, I do that 
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1 because I feel -- I do the best I can to get 

2 an idea of where we are headed. They are 

3 usually not right on the button, but usually -

4 - sometimes it turns out some are more and 

5 some are less, and in the end we will probably 

6 be okay.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Well, even looking at 

8 your chart, at PER-17, that would be -- trying 

9 to choose cases out of that number of cases 

10 and cover the criteria that Hans and Kathy 

11 would like to see, as we, I think, also would 

12 like to see, is going to be a touchy business. 

13 Some of them will be easy to do and some of 

14 them will be difficult to do.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes. And I am going 

16 to add another level of complexity that is 

17 unfortunate, which is, of course, when you 

18 slow the train down, you've got -- the

19 document was completed. We reviewed OTIB-12. 

20 there was a formal procedure for doing high21 fired plutonium. It received a positive 
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1 review, which is a lot we can stand on.

2 Now, unfortunately, at Hanford, we 

3 are in the middle right now of a review of the

4 Hanford Evaluation Report. There are a number 

5 of issues. Even though Hanford has now 

6 expanded its recommended period of coverage 

7 for the SEC, there are still a number of 

8 issues that Arjun is working with the team 

9 that may very well result in some additional 

10 changes.

11 So what happened is PERs are 

12 issued when NIOSH realizes -- this is a 

13 constant issue of PER, because enough has 

14 changed that we better revisit these cases. 

15 But some of those sites are still in the 

16 process of undergoing some degree of review. 

17 Savannah River is a perfect example. Hanford 

18 is another one. 

19 Idaho -- INL, we only had one --

20 We have a Site Profile review in INL. We had 

21 one Work Group meeting where we went over all 
95

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1 of our cases, and -- or all of our issues, and 

2 we are just warming up to issues resolution.

3 So just bear in mind that, in 

4 theory, we could do a PER review on INL, 

5 Idaho, and within the context of that PER 

6 notwithstanding the fact that things might 

7 change some more in the future, bear in mind 

8 that we could do one and say, okay, given this 

9 new set of guidelines as captured in the 

10 revised version of a -- whether it is a Site 

11 Profile or an OTIB -- and now this PER is 

12 issued that is these many cases. 

13 We could put that into the 

14 machinery and do a review but always 

15 recognize, if that particular site is still in 

16 the middle, things could change again.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Board members will 

18 have to recognize that at the time that they 

19 look at your universe and make their 

20 selection. Yes.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. This is 
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1 Ziemer and I think you always have that 

2 possibility on any particular site. The door 

3 is never closed to something being revised or 

4 changed or a PER coming out. So you have to 

5 deal with where you are at the moment.

6 CHAIR MUNN: True.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: And go from there.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Then hearing no real 

9 objection to the contrary, I will put this 

10 recommendation into writing, send it to all 

11 the members of this Subcommittee and, if you 

12 have any suggestions with respect to wording 

13 or with aspects of my recommendation, then 

14 please get back to me as promptly as possible.

15 Bear in mind that, between Friday 

16 morning and the time that we go to our 

17 teleconference on the 31st, I will be almost 

18 incommunicado. I will really be hard to reach 

19 and if you do reach me, I will probably be 

20 highly medicated. So if we can do this, it 

21 would be helpful.
97

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is Ziemer 

2 again. Just one other comment. I think the 

3 chart that SC&A provided us with, as I 

4 understand it, was sorted by sort of impact, 

5 number of cases from top to bottom and the 

6 reason certain facilities were at the top of 

7 the list were the number of cases' impact. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is that not 

10 correct?

11 CHAIR MUNN: Kathy had said that -

12 - in order of importance, as they saw them.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I think the 

14 importance was determined by potential number 

15 of cases to be reevaluated. Isn't that 

16 correct?

17 MS. BEHLING: A combination of 

18 number of cases, like I said, level of 

19 complexity for the different criteria. It is 

20 selection criteria and the science involved, 

21 as we saw it. It is objective.
98

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. As I look 

2 at the numbers in column 3, it is pretty clear 

3 that they go from -- well.

4 CHAIR MUNN: From high to lower.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: High to lower, 

6 whereas the complexity thing doesn't seem to 

7 do that.

8 MR. KATZ: It is not totally 

9 consistent in terms of numbers alone.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Steve, may I ask that 

11 you send that particular document, the list of 

12 PERs?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: This is attached to 

14 the new protocol that -- I can send it, yes.

15 CHAIR MUNN: If you would send it 

16 separately.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: It is part of 

18 Attachment 1 to the procedure.

19 CHAIR MUNN: We all just have the 

20 procedures in there.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: And it is just 
99

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1 Attachment 1 for that procedure. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: No, that's okay. 

3 don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. 

4 I was just thinking that it might help the 

5 committee members if they had that in hand at 

6 the same time they had my recommendation but 

7 we all know where to find it.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: Could you just 

9 summarize your recommendation for me one more 

10 time?

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. I will try to 

12 do that.

13 What I am going to recommend is 

14 that at least annually, SC&A will present to 

15 the Board the universe of PERs that exist with 

16 any recommendation that they have for review. 

17 I am asking that they do that prior to a full 

18 Board meeting so that, if anybody has any 

19 suggestions other than their suggestions, they 

20 can come forward with that at the time that we 

21 have it on the agenda at the Board meeting.
100

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1 Then the Board will make the 

2 selection.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Now what is the 

4 criteria, though, for them to present it to 

5 us? Like this?

6 CHAIR MUNN: Like this, yes.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: Just like this that 

8 is in here?

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, their criteria, 

10 and we are not including the cost, simply 

11 because it is difficult to impossible to 

12 evaluate what the cost, actually, for their 

13 work will be until they have recommendation 

14 from the Dose Reconstruction Committee with 

15 respect to how many dose reconstructions the 

16 DR Subcommittee feels should be done to 

17 adequately cover their universe of concerns.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: So out of this list 

19 then the Board will select a fixed number or 

20 some number, whatever they decide, and then it 

21 will be costed out to see if it is feasible to 
101

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1 do, and then SC&A will come back to the Board 

2 with the cost figures. So then the Board will 

3 say, okay, you can do two or you can do three, 

4 based upon the cost figures, or how does that 

5 work?

6 CHAIR MUNN: I did not intend to 

7 get into the cost now.

8 MR. KATZ: I think SC&A can give 

9 you rough costs. I mean, the only thing that 

10 is uncertain is how many cases would be 

11 reviewed -- dose reconstruction cases would be 

12 reviewed. But they can give you rough 

13 figures, just like they do for Site Profile --

14 recently did for the Site Profiles that were 

15 presented and so on.

16 CHAIR MUNN: In my recommendation, 

17 after the Board selects cases that it might 

18 like to see, then the Dose Reconstruction 

19 Subcommittee will identify what their 

20 recommendation will be for the number of 

21 cases. Only then will we be able to ask SC&A 
102

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1 for some cost estimate.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: For example, if 

3 SC&A -- PER-12 seems to be the one that they 

4 are pushing, but we may want as a Board to see 

5 PER-29, 14 and 17 done. How do we -- if we 

6 vote that we need those done and the Dose 

7 Reconstruction Committee then does their 

8 review, how do we know how many are going to 

9 be done? Does SC&A come back and tell us, 

10 okay, we got enough money to do these or what?

11 DR. MAURO: I know we would like 

12 to be precise, but the reality is -- let's say 

13 during any given Board meeting, you pick four. 

14 Okay? Now we don't know at the back end of 

15 the process, after we go through the first 

16 three steps, which ones are going to come up 

17 with -- we could assume that there will be a 

18 minimum of three. There may be some of them 

19 that will demand more. Okay? We don't know.

20 Now does that mean we can't give 

21 you some rough sense of what we think the cost 
103

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1 would be, the average cost per case? 

2 Actually, we could right up front. Of course, 

3 we -- so, therefore, everyone has a sense, 

4 because when you start to aggregate and you 

5 look at our group of four, if there is one 

6 outlier that ends up being more expensive, 

7 very often there are others that are less 

8 expensive.

9 I am concerned. I need a sense. 

10 Is this a $20,000 job or this is a $200,000 

11 job -- and a sense of where we are and when we 

12 are knocking on the door that we might be 

13 exhausting resources. I think we could do 

14 that up front.

15 When this slide goes up during a 

16 full Board meeting, there will be some dollars 

17 next to it. Everyone will recognize the 

18 dollars are going to have a degree of 

19 uncertainty. Certainly, what happens then is, 

20 on the basis of that, you folks make your 

21 judgments, how many, which ones, and you will 
104

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1 have a sense around that a whole deal may end 

2 up costing $100,000. Okay?

3 Now given that, we are given the 

4 green and go to work. Okay? The next time we 

5 meet, two months from then, I will be prepared 

6 to discuss with you, and I will always be 

7 prepared to let you know how -- in fact, every 

8 progress report that comes out every month --

9 take a look at it. 

10 You will see in every progress 

11 report, I make a statement right in the front, 

12 the first page, based on all of the work that 

13 has been authorized to date by the Board and 

14 our best estimate of what we think it is going 

15 to cost to deliver those products to you, here 

16 is how much money, I believe, that we are 

17 committed -- we are obligated to spend and how 

18 much do we have left.

19 So you will always know very early 

20 on whether or not we are starting to knock on 

21 the door of the 3.44 million that has been 
105

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1 allocated this year to support the Board. 

2 Right now, we still have got 1.5 million in 

3 the bank. That doesn't mean it won't go away 

4 quickly in terms of -- not that we've spent 

5 it. I make a decision, where do we spend and 

6 what is committed.

7 So again, I think it will serve 

8 the Board best and the whole program best if I 

9 do the best I can to put a number next to each 

10 one and you folks make your judgments as you 

11 see fit given that, more or less, those 

12 numbers are -- in the end, the collection of 

13 four or five or six cases, I am going to come 

14 in, more or less, where -- sort of average out 

15 and come in where I say they are.

16 If there is a big surprise -- oh, 

17 my goodness, you know, it is going to be 10 

18 times more -- I will let you know right away. 

19 In fact, we just recently had a very big 

20 surprise which went the other way. We set 

21 aside about $100,000 to do a particular piece 
106

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1 of work from the last meeting that, it turns 

2 out, we didn't have to do. So we just put 

3 $100,000 back in the bank. So maybe it can go 

4 either way.

5 Once we get started and we 

6 realize, oh no, this job is not going to be as 

7 difficult -- it happens both ways, and it is a 

8 living process. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Isn't there a 

10 natural hold point that Sub-task 4 -- I mean, 

11 we come down. We do Sub-task 1, 2 and 3 and 

12 then there is a natural hold point at Sub-task 

13 4 where we've got to wait for the Board or 

14 somebody to authorize what PERs are going to 

15 be reviewed.

16 So at that point, you can --

17 DR. MAURO: Revisit.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: I mean, you need to 

19 revisit the process, and you could do it at 

20 that point.

21 DR. MAURO: I think we just got to 
107

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1 keep talking to each other. We realize it is 

2 a living process. We do the best we can as 

3 early in the process as we can to let you 

4 know, here is what we think needs to be done; 

5 how many of those do you want that you will 

6 call. Here is what we think about the prices. 

7 And as we learn more and think the picture 

8 changes, we would just let you know real 

9 early, the picture is changing.

10 So as manager of the project in 

11 terms of making sure the Board knows where the 

12 obligations of the money have gone and when we 

13 are going to get into trouble, I take that as 

14 my primary responsibility to make sure that 

15 you are not authorizing us to do work that we 

16 are just not going to be able to do within 

17 budget.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: How many of these 

19 did you do last year?

20 DR. MAURO: Last year? PERs?

21 MEMBER LEMEN: Yes.
108

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1 DR. MAURO: We did 9 and 12. I 

2 don't know --

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Nine and 12?

4 DR. MAURO: PER-9 and PER-12.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay.

6 DR. MAURO: Hans, help. Do you 

7 guys remember any others besides 9 and 12 we 

8 did last year?

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Up to Sub-task 3.

10 DR. MAURO: Well, we didn't finish 

11 them.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: Sub-task 3, they 

13 didn't do. So how many have had dose 

14 reconstructions?

15 DR. MAURO: We didn't -- our 

16 contract started -- we are in the second year 

17 of our new contract and we did --

18 MR. MARSCHKE: If you look at the 

19 Attachment 1, every one that has an asterisk 

20 next to it, we have done -- not under this 

21 contract, but either this contract or the 
109

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1 preceding contract.

2 DR. MAURO: Right. That's why I 

3 am having trouble.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: You will see that 

5 there is some that have, like, OCAS PER-9 has 

6 a single asterisk next to it. That means, I 

7 guess, it has currently been assigned. If you 

8 look above it, OCAS PER-007 has a double 

9 asterisk next to it. That means it has 

10 already been included in one of the previous 

11 deliverables that we have given to the 

12 Subcommittee.

13 PER-20 has a single. If you look 

14 at the bottom of the -- basically, the Board 

15 has assigned -- a single asterisk means Board 

16 has assigned this PER to SC&A. The double 

17 asterisk means it is included in the third 

18 set. The triple asterisk means it was -- I 

19 think that is the January 2005 -- I think that 

20 is the first set.

21 So you can see, but all these 
110

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1 reviews have been only done through Sub-Task 

2 3. None of them have had any DR done.

3 CHAIR MUNN: The Board has never 

4 directed that that be incorporated into a 

5 review of a PER before. This is relatively 

6 new ground for us. That is why we are having 

7 trouble deciding where the responsibility 

8 lies.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: All the ones that 

10 have the double asterisks and the triple 

11 asterisks were done under the Procedures 

12 Review documents. When SC&A conducted their 

13 review of this PER as being a document, we 

14 conducted that review under the Procedures 

15 document. Now we have gotten a little bit 

16 more sophisticated with this dedicated PER 

17 review document.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: I presume, and 

19 maybe wrongly, that those that have a double 

20 asterisk or a triple asterisk the Board in the 

21 past has received your reviews?
111

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. That is 

2 correct.

3 MEMBER LEMEN: And what happens 

4 then when they receive your reviews?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Usually, what 

6 happens is we have a number of issues 

7 associated with any of the documents that we 

8 review, and I am just going to scroll through 

9 here and see if we have any PERs that I can 

10 pull out -- PER-3. We can look, and we just 

11 happen to have -- We did a review of PER-3. 

12 We have -- you can see on the summary screen 

13 here, we had four -- what happened? 

14 MEMBER LEMEN: We track it and 

15 then what do we do with that? Do we track it?

16 CHAIR MUNN: It is resolved.

17 DR. MAURO: There are four 

18 findings noted in and the status of those 

19 findings are tracked.

20 MEMBER LEMEN: And then once it is 

21 tracked and resolved by the Subcommittee, what 
112

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1 happens?

2 DR. MAURO: Can we go back to 

3 that? We could see where they are. That is 

4 why -- a little primer here.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: If you look at the 

6 detail, basically -- if you look at what is up 

7 here, this is the SC&A finding or a summary of 

8 the SC&A finding. There is a report that SC&A 

9 issues. So this is a summary out of that

10 report.

11 Then what happens -- so this is 

12 our finding out of that report or a summary of 

13 our finding out of that report. NIOSH comes 

14 back and they respond to that finding and then 

15 basically what we do is we come up with a 

16 follow-up recommendation to NIOSH's response, 

17 and --

18 MEMBER LEMEN: At that point then, 

19 the Board --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Then at that point, 

21 the Work Group --
113

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1 MEMBER LEMEN: This Work Group 

2 gets it at this point and then this Work Group 

3 make a decision to either keep it open or 

4 close it.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. There are --

6 MEMBER LEMEN: I understand.

7 DR. MAURO: In essence, there is a 

8 big report sitting on the shelf somewhere and 

9 there are findings regarding this particular 

10 PER. We boil it down to a database.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: So is that report 

12 then made available back to the petitioners?

13 MR. KATZ: I can explain it. It 

14 is not petitioner-specific. So this 

15 Subcommittee does its work on a whole host of 

16 procedures, and periodically this Subcommittee 

17 then reports to the full Board, and --

18 MEMBER LEMEN: I understand that.

19 MR. KATZ: -- and covers these are 

20 the procedures that we have covered, that we 

21 have closed, and so on. At that opportunity, 
114

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1 the Board, of course, could engage -- hasn't 

2 really meatily engaged, but could engage on 

3 any of the questions.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: I guess my question 

5 is very simple. It is closed now, and so it 

6 goes to a shelf, you say. What happens? Is 

7 it public record at that point in time that 

8 anybody can pull that report out and read it 

9 or is it sent to the original petitioners? 

10 Once something is closed just sitting on a 

11 shelf doesn't seem to do much for anybody.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Sometimes in order 

13 to close the issue, it would require a change 

14 to a procedure. It would require NIOSH to go 

15 back and do something. Usually, that is --

16 Because our comments usually are on a PROC 

17 document or an OTIB document, sometimes the 

18 closure of the comment requires that NIOSH 

19 revise that particular document.

20 So that would really be the -- but 

21 as far as the public or the claimants having 
115

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1 access to this particular database, they don't 

2 have access to this particular database. I 

3 don't know about the -- again, this is -- the 

4 original document that SC&A puts together with 

5 our comments on it usually comes in the form 

6 of something like this, which is a letter from 

7 John to the CDC and with the document attached 

8 to that letter and it includes all the 

9 documents that we have reviewed and all the --

10 again, if we look through here --

11 CHAIR MUNN: This document that 

12 you are talking about --

13 MEMBER LEMEN: That is a public 

14 document.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that is a public 

16 document. That is the closed document.

17 DR. MAURO: You are bringing up a 

18 very important point and I agree with you. We 

19 put up on the Web, on the open Web, all the 

20 procedures for the world to read. 

21 We put up on the open Web our 
116

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1 report to see our comments on it but then we 

2 engage in this process, a very complex 

3 process, because we have over 100 -- we have 

4 103 procedures that we review to date. Each 

5 one has perhaps five to ten comments.

6 We systematically march through 

7 and in the marching through, that is why we 

8 have this database that you just looked at. 

9 Every time we have a meeting, we address an 

10 issue, and we discuss it, and usually the 

11 discussion goes like this. Well, SC&A -- we 

12 will say this is our problem and it is in that 

13 database. Here is our problem. 

14 NIOSH has an opportunity before 

15 the meeting to say, well, listen, we think we 

16 are okay, here is why, and it goes within the 

17 database and you just saw that window.

18 Then the last step in the process 

19 is we will talk about it, and very often SC&A 

20 is saying, yes, we saw your answer, and we 

21 agree with you; we think that you have solved 
117

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1 the problem, or they will say, no, SC&A, we 

2 agree with you, that is a problem with our 

3 procedure and we are going to fix it.

4 What happens at that point, the 

5 Board does one of two things -- a number of 

6 things. For that particular issue, it 

7 decides, okay, the procedure has been revised; 

8 it is new, we have issued a new procedure that 

9 solves that issue. It has been out there now. 

10 We could close it, because --

11 MEMBER LEMEN: When you say the 

12 Board, do you mean this Subcommittee?

13 DR. MAURO: I'm sorry, this 

14 Subcommittee. This Subcommittee is the one 

15 that has the final say and votes, do we close 

16 that issue. This particular one that we are 

17 looking at, it has been closed. Very 

18 important, though. Sometimes we disagree, and 

19 we will say, no, no, no, and we disagree, and 

20 then it is still open. 

21 That means we have not closed it. 
118

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1 We have not resolved it. Then there is a 

2 gray area where we sit around the table and we 

3 agree in principle on the solution, but that 

4 change has not yet found its way into the 

5 procedure as a revision, so it is called in 

6 abeyance. That means, for all intents and 

7 purposes, the problem has been solved but we 

8 are not going to close it yet because, until 

9 we actually have a new procedure that captures 

10 the sense of the concern and has fixed it, it 

11 is only then when the Work Group says we will 

12 close it.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: When it is closed, 

14 does that mean that NIOSH has taken the 

15 actions that are necessary to correct any of 

16 the disagreements?

17 DR. MAURO: Absolutely.

18 MEMBER LEMEN: And everything is 

19 copacetic.

20 DR. MAURO: It's finished, but you 

21 know what?
119

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1 MEMBER LEMEN: Why doesn't it go 

2 after that back to the petitioners?

3 MR. KATZ: Well, first of all, the 

4 petitioners -- this is Procedures. 

5 MEMBER LEMEN: I understand that.

6 MR. KATZ: But these aren't 

7 petitioners. There are no petitioners. These 

8 are procedures.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: Why isn't it a 

10 public document?

11 MR. KATZ: But you are saying why 

12 isn't it in the public. This is a morass of 

13 details. This is really very granular at this 

14 level.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: It is like us 

16 sitting here saying, well, the public wouldn't 

17 understand it.

18 MR. KATZ: No. No, I mean, the 

19 public could -- how would the public find its 

20 way through this morass of details at any 

21 given time?
120

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1 MS. HOWELL: Wait, wait. Let me 

2 clarify because, if there were requests for 

3 these materials, the public could receive 

4 them.

5 MR. KATZ: They would make them 

6 available. 

7 MS. HOWELL: However, basically, 

8 in order to be able to put -- this is all pre9 decisional document. What you are seeing on 

10 the screen right now isn't final, and so to 

11 make that available to the public could be 

12 potentially misleading. 

13 Now once it is closed, there are 

14 things that can be made available, but they 

15 all have to go through a level of review. 

16 Certainly, they could be requested as a Board 

17 document or under a FOIA request and the 

18 proper reviews would have to take place and 

19 then they would be released to the public.

20 So it is not that they would never 

21 get to the public. It is that we are not 
121

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1 taking the step of doing those sorts of 

2 reviews and creating -- I don't even know the 

3 kind of server capacity we would have to have 

4 to have all of this stuff posted all the time 

5 on the website.

6 So it is available. I do want to 

7 clarify that the material would ultimately be 

8 made available in some fashion.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, what is -- go 

10 ahead. I have got another question to follow 

11 up on that.

12 CHAIR MUNN: These are the 

13 internal machinations of the organization that 

14 are necessary in order to work out the 

15 technical details of how to reach the goal 

16 that is established for us by the law.

17 These internal machinations really 

18 and truly are detail-specific. They are tiny 

19 little things. We struggled at the outset. 

20 We started off with an ordinary matrix like 

21 everyone has, and discovered very quickly 
122

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1 that, by the time we reached not even our 

2 halfway point, we were completely beyond being 

3 able to control a paper matrix.

4 So this database was, over a 

5 period of about three years, put together and 

6 formulated as a way for us to internally keep 

7 track and for the Board internally, to keep 

8 track of the issues that had been raised by 

9 our contractor and the resolutions as they 

10 progress and the resolution for each one of 

11 these. Sometimes it is simple. Sometimes it 

12 goes on for years.

13 So we wanted to be able to have, 

14 when all is said and done, an archive that 

15 anyone who wanted to could go back into and 

16 follow through step by step and date by date, 

17 this organization or this person says this, 

18 the response was this, the agreement was not 

19 this, it turned out to be this and what was 

20 done about it was this.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: But the PER is 
123

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1 specific to a petition. Right?

2 CHAIR MUNN: No. 

3 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, these are 

4 right here. I mean --

5 CHAIR MUNN: No. It is to a 

6 program. It is a program review, not a 

7 petitioner.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: But it is a program 

9 review of -- well, let's see if I can get back 

10 to the beginning. It is a program review of 

11 one particular site, isn't it?

12 MR. KATZ: Yes, sometimes. Some 

13 of them are, and sometimes --

14 MEMBER LEMEN: Some of them are 

15 general for all sites?

16 DR. ULSH: Sure, Super S 

17 plutonium. That appears at Rocky Flats, but 

18 it is also several other sites as well.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: But if it is 

20 particular to one site and only one site, that 

21 is -- I am wondering why that wouldn't be --
124

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1 that would be available to petitioners only if 

2 they did a FOIA.

3 MR. KATZ: Well, there may not 

4 even be petitioners for the site. I mean, it 

5 depends on the site.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: What if there is --

7 I understand that. I know there is not 

8 petitioners for every site, but --

9 DR. MAURO: The point is that we 

10 agonized early that we have an obligation to 

11 archive all the thinking, all the analysis, 

12 all the exchange which has been going on now 

13 for six years and we were tracking it, 

14 actually, in a table by hand. We realized 

15 that we are not creating an archive.

16 I think, to have this system so 

17 that we could not lose sight of where we are -

18 - this forest is enormous. But even more 

19 important, it is important that we operate in 

20 the sunshine. 

21 So when this was invented many 
125

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1 years ago, it was as much a reason to have an 

2 archive where every decision where we went 

3 from an issue that we raised on some PER or 

4 some procedure -- we said, listen, we have a 

5 problem here, and then there is a process we 

6 went through that ended up closing that, a 

7 process that could have taken a year and five 

8 or six meetings before we closed it. But it 

9 is all there and it is in the transcript.

10 By the way, one could argue that 

11 everything is in the transcript. If you 

12 really want to know how it happened, the 

13 transcript is here but we also realized that, 

14 who is going to read 10,000 pages of 

15 transcript because every meeting -- this is 

16 300 pages. 

17 So we have a better way. We are 

18 going to do this. So now -- but you are 

19 right. What we have not talked about, and I 

20 think it is important, is at what point do we 

21 make this available to the public so that, if 
126

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1 anyone is interested and is concerned -- how 

2 was the high-fired plutonium issue resolved? 

3 We know that they issued OTIB-0029, but how do 

4 we know that, in fact, it was properly 

5 implemented and all the workers who are 

6 affected by that new way of modeling internal 

7 dose were, in fact, given -- you know, it was 

8 all done correctly?

9 The answer is we go to the PER 

10 process. SC&A does its thing. We do the 

11 cases and it is all archived. So anyone who 

12 wants to could determine for themselves 

13 whether or not this all has been done in an 

14 open way and in a scientifically sound way.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: And this archive 

16 then is kept by NIOSH?

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it on a 

18 computer system.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: But is there a 

20 docket office that somebody could walk into 

21 like in any regulatory agency and just pull 
127

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1 out these and review them?

2 CHAIR MUNN: Not yet, but there 

3 may be. Dick, you are getting a skewed view 

4 of what we are doing also, because you are 

5 coming in at the program review stage, and 

6 these PERs are relatively new and relatively -

7 - they have become increasingly complex as the 

8 program has gone along and have increased in 

9 number, of course, as the program went along.

10 The first few years of the 

11 program, there was not enough of a program 

12 issue to be reviewed and that is why you have 

13 only 32, as a matter of fact. But they have 

14 increased in complexity as the programs 

15 themselves has expanded, but the PERs, in the 

16 view of this Subcommittee, are a very, very 

17 small part of what we are looking at.

18 We look at all of the procedures 

19 that are involved in the internal operations, 

20 and all of the other procedures we have come 

21 to grips with how we should handle. The PERs 
128

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1 have now become complex enough and large 

2 enough in number that it behooves us to 

3 include them as a part of our procedure.

4 MEMBER LEMEN: Okay. All of the 

5 other procedures that you are talking about --

6 do you track those?

7 DR. MAURO: That is most of what 

8 this is.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: That is PERs and 

10 the other stuff combined; right?

11 MR. KATZ: Everything.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: See, there's 538 

13 issues up there and most of those 538 are on 

14 TIBs, OTIBs, PROCs and other documents like 

15 that.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: For example, we could 

18 open up OTIB-49, which deals with the high19 fired plutonium, and see how we resolved that 

20 issue.

21 MEMBER LEMEN: That is fine, but 
129

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1 on the open issues then, how many of the 500-

2 some are still open?

3 DR. MAURO: We got a nice table 

4 for you.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Is this a good time 

6 to see the summary? That is the way we 

7 usually start our meetings, is by looking at 

8 our status, and the status also will be 

9 available to you on the O: drive, as it is to 

10 all Board members. You want to talk about it, 

11 Steve?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, we can talk 

13 about it. This is something that can be 

14 generated from the -- it is one of the tables 

15 that can be generated. If you go up here to 

16 the reports, new reports button, you can press 

17 that, and you can generate this file here. I 

18 have a hard copy of it. I will re-generate 

19 it.

20 Actually, I sent this through 

21 email to everybody. I think it was yesterday 
130

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1 -- last night. Our office does -- this is a 

2 list of the finding dates. When we issue a 

3 report, that includes findings on a procedure 

4 or another document included in a PER. This 

5 is the date that report was issued. 

6 This is the number of findings 

7 that were associated with that report. The 

8 three big ones here are what we call -- these 

9 are the three combined reports, if you will. 

10 We looked at multiple procedures in these. We 

11 looked at -- I don't know -- maybe 20 

12 procedures, 20 or 30 procedures, and so these 

13 are the three big ones.

14 Most of these other ones where you 

15 just have single digits or maybe a couple of 

16 dozen comments -- those are individual 

17 documents, individual procedures that have 

18 been looked at.

19 So these are the numbers of 

20 findings. These are the ones that are open at 

21 this point, and open means -- the definitions 
131

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1 of the terms are down here. Open means that 

2 SC&A has issued an issue or a finding, has 

3 made a finding. NIOSH has not yet responded 

4 to that finding, and so there has been really 

5 no discussion.

6 Out of the 538, there has really 

7 been no discussion within this Subcommittee of 

8 101 of those findings. In progress means that 

9 NIOSH has come back and responded to --

10 initially responded to our finding, and they 

11 said, well, this is our interpretation and 

12 this is our reason why, this is our proposed 

13 resolution, or whatever; and we have come back 

14 and said, well, we don't quite agree with you, 

15 NIOSH. So we are still negotiating, if you 

16 will, within the Subcommittee as to what the 

17 resolution to those 35 issues are.

18 In abeyance, as John talked about 

19 before, is NIOSH has come back with their 

20 response to our issue and we have discussed it 

21 here at the Subcommittee and we come to a 
132

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1 meeting of minds and said, yes, that is a good 

2 resolution, but they need to change -- in 

3 order to implement that resolution, they have 

4 to change the document.

5 That means we are in agreement in 

6 principle, but there still has to be the 

7 mechanics carried through. So there is 86 of 

8 those that are in that bucket.

9 Addressed in finding, that means 

10 that, you know, we made a finding but it is 

11 similar to another finding that we made maybe 

12 on another procedure, so we direct you to that 

13 other procedure and there have been 15 of 

14 those.

15 Transferred means it is better 

16 that this particular issue be handled in a 

17 different subcommittee or be handled as a 

18 general generic issue, something along those 

19 lines, and we got 41 of them in that class.

20 Closed is exactly what you would 

21 expect it to mean. We have come to a meeting 
133

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cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

Procedures.

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1 of minds. There is no more changes required 

2 to any of the documents. So this issue is put 

3 to bed, and we've got about 250 issues in that 

4 category.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: Is there any 

6 process for the closed, if new information 

7 might alter the decision that was made?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: No, I don't think 

9 so. Once it is closed, unless NIOSH goes back 

10 and changes the document and causes us to re11 review that document, there is really no --

12 that is put to bed, and that issue goes away, 

13 as far as I --

14 DR. MAURO: But that triggers a 

15 PER. In other words, let's say NIOSH agrees 

16 that, yes, we have to change this procedure.

17 MEMBER LEMEN: Then you go back to 

18 the process and start a PER and go back 

19 through it again? That is all I was asking. 

20 That is all I was asking.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: New information.
134

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1 MEMBER LEMEN: That is all I am 

2 asking.

3 DR. MAURO: And you could see the 

4 maturation. We start off looking at technical 

5 procedures, and then we end up getting to a 

6 place where, yes, NIOSH says, you know, I 

7 think we better fix this procedure. But wait 

8 a minute, when you fix a procedure, does that 

9 not mean that it might affect some dose 

10 reconstructions? Yes. So all of a sudden --

11 I don't know how many years ago we merged --

12 you folks implemented the PER program where 

13 there is a whole process where they go back 

14 and they review. And that is what this whole 

15 discussion started because now we are in a 

16 mode where we are doing less procedure reviews 

17 and we are moving into a mode where PER 

18 reviews are becoming the coin of the realm, so 

19 to speak, because that is where, you know, you 

20 bring closure. Yes, they in fact have 

21 implemented changes, and everything is looking 
135

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1 fine or not.

2 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, now you see 

3 the problem with putting a new person on the 

4 Board, having to come back and explain things 

5 to them.

6 CHAIR MUNN: And this is a very 

7 complex process to be explained.

8 MEMBER LEMEN: Thank you for your 

9 indulgence.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't 

11 necessarily want to extend the conversation, 

12 but from our standpoint there is a fair amount 

13 of benefit in having a closure document 

14 available to the public on these findings, 

15 because from our standpoint, the reports are 

16 all public. You know, they are all on our 

17 website, and they said, boy, there is all 

18 these problems with the procedures.

19 Then there is nothing else there. 

20 So from our standpoint, it would be 

21 worthwhile to have some sort of closure thing 
136

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1 saying that this finding from this document 

2 was closed in this fashion.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: The only thing I 

4 can think of in that line is, periodically the 

5 Board does send to the Secretary a summary 

6 letter saying that so many have been closed, 

7 so many are still open, and so on and so 

8 forth.

9 It is very general, very generic, 

10 and very upper-level, but -- and I don't know 

11 how available that is to the general public.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: They are there.

13 MR. KATZ: That is available. The 

14 only thing I was thinking when Dick was 

15 raising this, other than -- I think the PER is 

16 the nicest closure, because it really brings 

17 it to the very end where dose reconstructions 

18 are redone according to a new procedure, but 

19 of course, not everything ends up in a PER 

20 either because some of issues, findings, are 

21 closed and no change is needed and so on.
137

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1 The only thing that could be done 

2 -- but it would require, I think, a separate 

3 database in a sense, would be to take the 

4 closed ones and put those in the database that 

5 is publicly available. 

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Or you print them 

7 out in a report.

8 MR. KATZ: Or print them out in a 

9 report, the closed ones; and if people want to 

10 see those details, they could see how those 

11 issues were closed.

12 MEMBER LEMEN: Could the summary 

13 document serve as -- or does the summary 

14 document sent to the Secretary summarize the 

15 closed documents?

16 CHAIR MUNN: No. We try to keep 

17 the communication with the Secretary as clear 

18 and as upper-level as possible.

19 MEMBER LEMEN: Is it possible that 

20 the closed documents, as Stu was saying, would 

21 be beneficial to them, maybe a short summary 
138

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1 to put it in layman's terms what the meaning 

2 out of the closed document means could be made 

3 available to the general public?

4 MR. KATZ: That would take a lot 

5 of translation. To translate these into 

6 layperson's terms for each item that is 

7 closed, someone would have to sit down with 

8 that and write something de novo. That sounds 

9 like a lot of work.

10 MEMBER GIBSON: It is a good 

11 issue. I mean, that is one point we get 

12 constantly on the whole program, is we can't 

13 break it down into layman's terms that people 

14 will understand.

15 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, I think we 

16 have to address that issue, because when I 

17 came in, that is one of the things I got hit 

18 with the most, was people don't know what is 

19 going on and what decisions are being made and 

20 it is being made, not in a vacuum, but it is 

21 not being translated. 
139

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1 I think we need to, at some point 

2 in time, maybe make it an agenda for a future 

3 meeting or a full Board meeting to translate 

4 how we get this information out. 

5 I hear you, Paul. You want to say 

6 something.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, yes. This 

8 is Ziemer again. I just wanted to point out 

9 that, in the two reports to the Secretary, 

10 although we don't deal individually with each 

11 of the closed items, there are statements 

12 where we have indicated what the impact of 

13 these different items are on the whole system.

14 In other words, the question --

15 the real bottom-line question is, okay, there 

16 have been some issues in terms of the 

17 procedures. There are some findings that have 

18 been identified and corrections have been 

19 made. What is the impact on this?

20 There is a couple of them. One of 

21 them is that some procedures have been 
140

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1 changed. So there are some summary statements 

2 in the reports to the Secretary that kind of 

3 give that bottom line. I think that is sort 

4 of what the public wants to know also. Are 

5 the findings such that the system is broken or 

6 are these procedures that are and have been 

7 fixed, and that kind of thing?

8 That is what we have tried to 

9 convey to the Secretary. Are we able to say 

10 that, with these procedures, either as being 

11 used or as being revised, is the bottom line a 

12 scientifically sound approach to dose 

13 reconstruction?

14 CHAIR MUNN: I believe the letters 

15 to the Secretary are on the --

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, they are on 

17 the website. Those are all public. Yes.

18 CHAIR MUNN: So, easily 

19 identifiable.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

21 MEMBER GIBSON: I think I see 
141

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1 Richard's comment as a little different than 

2 that, than just the public saying, yes, 

3 scientifically been decided or met properly 

4 and stuff. They want to more understand the 

5 program.

6 MEMBER LEMEN: Exactly.

7 MEMBER GIBSON: I mean, we have an 

8 Worker Outreach Work Group and we have 

9 certainly talked about committees. We would 

10 love to have you, because that is something we 

11 are struggling with with that group with how 

12 to make things more clear to the claimants and 

13 the public, dose reconstructions and the 

14 documents.

15 CHAIR MUNN: We have put in a 

16 great number of hours in various of our Work 

17 Groups and Subcommittees attempting to provide 

18 information in a variety of ways and in as 

19 clear a manner as possible. To the best of my 

20 knowledge, it has made little impact on the 

21 complaint that what is being done is difficult 
142

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1 to understand.

2 How one can find the ideal 

3 translator for that is a mystery, but we do 

4 the best we can and we keep trying to keep our 

5 communication lines open as much as possible, 

6 and even in all of our discussions we always 

7 have the opportunity for anyone who is 

8 interested in what we are doing to be on the 

9 phone line, but it gets pretty dull just 

10 listening to this.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, one thing 

12 that I see after what you said was that, you 

13 know, you can throw this issue to the Outreach 

14 Subcommittee, but the Outreach Subcommittee 

15 really doesn't have the understanding of 

16 having sat through Procedures Committee 

17 meetings to really understand this issue. So 

18 how can the Outreach Committee really even 

19 begin to translate this?

20 CHAIR MUNN: Well, the argument 

21 that I have heard personally from -- and the 
143

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1 requests that I hear from the public don't 

2 have anything to do, really, with what we do 

3 here. The question is really, why is this 

4 decision made the way it is, and explaining 

5 why the decision is made the way it is varies

6 from one claimant to the other, from one case 

7 that is being reviewed to the other.

8 It is difficult to see how there 

9 is any simple way to show in any kind of 

10 meaningful way how what we are doing applies 

11 to the concern that most claimants seem to 

12 have. 

13 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, it seems to 

14 me that, if you are going to go to the 

15 Outreach Subcommittee with this, this 

16 committee at least has the responsibility of 

17 getting the closed document and saying, here, 

18 Outreach, this is what we decided. Someone 

19 has to translate this.

20 MR. KATZ: Again, it just would be 

21 resource -- you could have resources. You 
144

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1 could have a person or persons assigned to 

2 taking each closed item and writing up a 

3 little summary of, this was the issue, this is 

4 how it was closed, and this is what its 

5 relevance is for dose reconstructions and --

6 MEMBER LEMEN: Well, that doesn't 

7 seem hard to me to do.

8 MR. KATZ: Well, except there are 

9 hundreds. So it is not a small volume --

10 MEMBER LEMEN: You would have to 

11 catch up. I understand.

12 MR. KATZ: So, it could be done. 

13 It is just a question of --

14 MEMBER LEMEN: So once you catch 

15 up, it is not a big problem.

16 MR. KATZ: It is just a question 

17 of resources.

18 DR. MAURO: Interestingly enough, 

19 the Outreach Work Group -- the genesis of the 

20 Outreach Work Group had to do with lots of 

21 concerns that went on for a while that 
145

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1 workers, petitioners, would bring information 

2 to NIOSH and they felt that they weren't 

3 always heard. Therefore, the information that 

4 is being transmitted is not making its way 

5 into the work products and into the decision6 making.

7 So most of the Outreach -- I'm 

8 speaking from -- I was involved in the genesis 

9 of this, too. Most of the Outreach was 

10 concern -- or is concerned with, listen, we 

11 think it is very important that, when

12 information comes in from workers during 

13 interviews, during data-capture efforts or 

14 whatever vehicle it is, that that information 

15 is recorded and recorded completely and 

16 accurately and then seriously considered when 

17 a work product like a Site Profile is produced 

18 and decisions are made regarding, you know, 

19 judgments regarding whether an SEC petition 

20 should be granted or not.

21 Now you are bringing a new 
146

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1 dimension by way of enriching the process even 

2 further, that being that folks out there who 

3 are concerned about this program probably are 

4 not aware of this and this is, in my opinion, 

5 extremely impressive. The agony and the 

6 amount and granularity -- we haven't even 

7 gotten -- we haven't started knocking heads 

8 yet, but it is all here and, quite frankly, I 

9 am thinking that -- and I don't know the 

10 degree to which NIOSH does this, but the 

11 degree to which, when NIOSH goes out, and 

12 whether it is a data-gathering effort or it is 

13 an effort to communicate about what is going 

14 on, I don't know the extent to which NIOSH 

15 includes some discussion of, by the way, 

16 listen, when we hear you and when we get your 

17 information and when we revise our procedures 

18 and our Site Profiles in light of that 

19 information, it doesn't stop there. It goes 

20 to PERs. We went back and redid 10,000, 1,000 

21 -- I don't know how many cases in light of all 
147

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1 this information.

2 In a funny sort of way, this PER 

3 closes the loop and I don't know if 

4 petitioners and members of the public realize 

5 that this is -- when all is said and done, 

6 beside the SEC process, this closes the circle 

7 and makes sure that everybody is being treated 

8 correctly.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: Oh, I hear a lot of 

10 complaints of people saying exactly that. We 

11 are spending a lot of money. We are spending 

12 a lot of sweat and input from a lot of people 

13 and we have a lot of contractor support to do 

14 that, but what are we getting for that money 

15 and why can't these closed reports help answer 

16 those questions? 

17 I think it would be good PR for 

18 the whole program if you could show that the 

19 circle has been closed, because right now the 

20 circle is left open, and there is a gap 

21 between this end of the circle and the 
148

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1 beginning of the circle that has not been 

2 closed.

3 DR. MAURO: I could say I am 

4 aware, at least for the thoracic lymphoma and 

5 the high-fired, there were a lot of reversals 

6 which, you know, in one respect you could say, 

7 oh my goodness -- it is good. You put in 

8 place a process that we found -- we learned 

9 something and we fixed it and we had these 

10 many reversals.

11 MEMBER LEMEN: I think that is 

12 good news.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes. 

14 MEMBER LEMEN: That good news 

15 ought to get out there.

16 DR. MAURO: I agree and I don't 

17 think that information is getting out. I 

18 don't know. Is it? I mean, when you folks go 

19 to your Outreach, do you talk about that?

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is Ziemer. I 

21 think what could be done would be something 
149

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1 like that, that is somewhat generic. If we 

2 took it item by item, I think we would have a 

3 problem, because -- and Dr. Lemen, I will just 

4 mention, for example, I just pulled up at 

5 random here a finding. But here is an SC&A 

6 finding: the fitting of the data to a log7 normal distribution was statistically 

8 acceptable, but many times did not represent 

9 well the data at the highest end of the 

10 results.

11 Well, all right. I don't think 

12 that particular finding is worth spending a 

13 lot of effort to try to explain to the public 

14 what that has meant. What we need to do is 

15 look at the issues that impact, like high16 fired plutonium or maybe categorize broadly a 

17 number of findings of the type just mentioned, 

18 that there were a number of findings that have 

19 to do with how the data are reviewed or how 

20 the data are utilized or something like that 

21 and then indicate what has been done.
150

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1 To do each finding in the level of 

2 detail that we deal with, I don't think, would 

3 serve the public very well, because it 

4 wouldn't add to the overall understanding of 

5 what really is going on unless simply knowing 

6 that we are doing with that level of detail, 

7 if that helps. 

8 I mean, so many of these findings 

9 are -- taken individually by themselves, are 

10 really a great amount of detail in how things 

11 are done.

12 CHAIR MUNN: This has been a good 

13 discussion and one that, I hope, is helpful 

14 for our new member as well as giving us some 

15 material for thought for the rest of us.

16 I don't know about the rest of 

17 you, but your Chair is ready for lunch, and we 

18 have, I believe, come to some decision with 

19 respect to at least what you are going to be 

20 seeing in the next day or so from me and what 

21 I propose for what we will, I hope, as a 
151

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1 Subcommittee propose to the Board.

2 When we return from lunch, I hope 

3 we can leave this on the table and revisit it 

4 again after we have all had an opportunity to 

5 address some of the other issues, other than 

6 our PER setup here, and we will try to take up 

7 where we left off which would have been about 

8 the eleven o'clock item on our Action Items.

9 Lunch -- return at 1:30, if that 

10 is amenable with all.

11 MS. BEHLING: Wanda, this is Kathy 

12 Behling. I just wondered on the PER issue if 

13 I could make one additional comment.

14 The question was initially asked, 

15 how many PERs did we do last year and the 

16 answer is three and it is PER-20 and PER-12 

17 which is the high-fired plutonium and the 

18 lymphoma -- PER-9, the lymphoma issue.

19 One of the things I just wanted to 

20 make mention of; we have never discussed the 

21 PER-20, the Blockson TBD revision, under your 
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1 Subcommittee. So perhaps that is something 

2 we could put on an agenda at some point in 

3 time.

4 CHAIR MUNN: If that is one of 

5 those that we have been directed to do. I am 

6 not sure.

7 MS. BEHLING: SC&A was directed to 

8 do PER-20, PER-12, and PER-9 under the 

9 protocol that we have been using as protocol. 

10 Those are the three PERs that we have done 

11 under that protocol but we have never 

12 discussed the PER-20 issue with your 

13 committee.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Do we have it on our 

15 board yet? Okay. Thank you, Kathy, for 

16 calling that to our attention. We appreciate 

17 it. 

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: At 1:30, then?

19 CHAIR MUNN: One-thirty, yes.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Thank you.

21 MR. KATZ: Thank you, everyone on 
153

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1 the line.

2 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

3 matter went off the record at 12:13 p.m. and 

4 resumed at 1:30 p.m.)

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18
154

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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 (1:30 p.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: This is the Procedures 

4 Subcommittee and we are reconvening post5 lunch.

6 Wanda, can I just bring up my 

7 point for closure?

8 CHAIR MUNN: Please do.

9 MR. KATZ: Just following up, Paul 

10 and Mark, from the discussion we had just 

11 before lunch about, sort of, closure with 

12 procedures.

13 We chatted off-line a bit about an 

14 idea, which is to have SC&A run through the 

15 procedures database, and then for those 

16 procedures, complete procedures for which 

17 everything is closed or perhaps closed and in 

18 abeyance, they could produce just like a two19 pager that summarizes what were the major 

20 findings and how those were resolved, and then 

21 by that means just give substantive closure to 
155

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1 that whole procedure review.

2 So, Paul and Mark in particular, I 

3 don't know what you think about that. I would 

4 like to task SC&A with doing that, if that 

5 sounds like a good idea to the Subcommittee. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do you have a feel 

7 for the extent to which we have a number of 

8 them that are in that category? Is it just 

9 one or two?

10 CHAIR MUNN: We don't know yet. 

11 They are going to have to check and see.

12 MR. KATZ: Steve did just sort of 

13 a very quick look at the database and it seems 

14 like some of the earlier procedures are going 

15 to fall in that category, and we don't have to 

16 do, you know, vast numbers at a time, even if 

17 there were a lot of them. 

18 We can do this incrementally, but 

19 it would be a nice way to just have a final 

20 record of disposition for procedures that have 

21 been reviewed.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Seems like a good 

2 plan, at least worth trying and see what the 

3 product looks like. I think, as I understood 

4 what Mr. Gibson and Dr. Lemen were saying, 

5 that it ought to be something that could be 

6 conveyed to, certainly, the worker population 

7 to give them a feel for what we did and what 

8 the outcomes were.

9 MR. KATZ: Yes. I also think it 

10 would be nice for the Board itself to have 

11 this kind of closure on a substantive basis on 

12 procedures versus the Secretary's report, 

13 which doesn't get into details at all.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

15 MR. KATZ: Does the rest of the 

16 Subcommittee feel like this is -- Mark?

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, this is 

18 Mark. That sounds fine to me, Ted.

19 CHAIR MUNN: We will just see what 

20 shows up, and we will see what we actually 

21 have. We don't know yet what we actually 
157

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1 have. We will make that judgment when we need 

2 to meet next, and we will make that decision.

3 DR. MAURO: By the way, what I 

4 could do is to make -- we will go through the 

5 list and see how many fall into that category 

6 and we will do one.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: We will do one, send 

9 it out to you. What do you think? Is this 

10 what you had in mind? 

11 MR. KATZ: I think that would be 

12 great. Thank you, John.

13 CHAIR MUNN: We are going to take 

14 up our action items list. Under the first 

15 item, originally scheduled for eleven o'clock, 

16 status of new tracking methods for changes to 

17 SC&A procedures that are being used to review 

18 NIOSH procedures. SC&A is going to have to 

19 show us where we are with the database before 

20 we start using it. Steve?

21 MR. MARSCHKE: We don't really 
158

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1 track changes to SC&A procedures per se. We 

2 do keep a file of every procedure that was 

3 issued and so I think this came out -- we were 

4 revising the SC&A procedure that we use to 

5 review the NIOSH procedures, and we don't --

6 like I say, we don't really keep track of 

7 those changes in any kind of a systematic 

8 tracking system or anything like that.

9 What we do do is we keep a 

10 permanent record of all the procedures that 

11 have been issued. So we have Version 0, and 

12 then, when Version 1 comes on, we put that 

13 into the permanent file as well.

14 So if you wanted to see the 

15 changes between Version 0 and Version 1, what 

16 you would have to do is you would have to go 

17 to our -- Judy, who basically maintains that 

18 file, and she would call up both versions of 

19 the document, and you would have to sit there 

20 and compare them page by page.

21 CHAIR MUNN: As I recall the 
159

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1 discussion that we had when we were talking 

2 about this before, we were urging SC&A to 

3 adopt the practice that is used by NIOSH and 

4 by other organizations whereby a tracking page 

5 is inserted into the procedure itself, so that 

6 if changes are made, there is an indication of 

7 who made the procedure change, what that 

8 change was or at least where it can be found 

9 in the new procedure and the date.

10 MR. MARSCHKE Okay. We did not 

11 pick up on that and we will do that and revise 

12 the future revisions. Future revisions of 

13 SC&A procedures will then include a tracking 

14 page.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes, just like -- yes, 

16 I think it is a great idea and we should do 

17 that.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

19 DR. MAURO: So just like you folks 

20 have one like the date, the revision date and 

21 a brief summary of what the changes are. I 
160

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1 know I find it useful when I look at your 

2 material. We should be doing the same thing. 

3 Yes.

4 CHAIR MUNN: That is good. All 

5 right. Then we will have this same item show 

6 up next time so that we can identify any new 

7 additions to your process. Okay?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

9 CHAIR MUNN: The next item: OTIB10 0047-01 and -02. We are going to review the 

11 cleanup of issue status and show the database 

12 link to clarification responses.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: What we have done 

14 is Brant sent us NIOSH responses a week or so 

15 ago, 0047-01 I believe it was, and we have 

16 looked over these responses.

17 Basically, what it was is NIOSH 

18 agreed with some small comments that we made 

19 on the previous go-round. Back in November, 

20 NIOSH had given us a response where they did 

21 an analysis of measured dose rates.
161

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1 There was a units-conversion 

2 problem where they assumed they were weekly 

3 responses, and in fact, they were quarterly 

4 responses or vice versa -- I am not sure 

5 which. We picked up on that. 

6 We happened to pick up on that, 

7 and conveyed that at the November meeting and 

8 NIOSH has gone back and looked at, you know, 

9 where we said that they agreed that they did 

10 make that units conversion, and in what Brant 

11 sent out last week or so ago -- was basically 

12 saying, yes, we did do a unit conversion and 

13 we will have redone the analysis. Is that 

14 correct?

15 DR. ULSH: I think pretty much. 

16 Elyse, do you want to add anything, or anybody 

17 else? 

18 MS. THOMAS: Right. I don't think

19 I want to add anything, but I think George 

20 Kerr may be on the line, and he may want to 

21 add something.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: So where are we? Are 

2 we still in progress?

3 MR. MARSCHKE: I would say --

4 recommend we change to in abeyance, because we 

5 basically are -- you know, NIOSH and SC&A are 

6 in agreement on this one. So I would --

7 SC&A's recommendation would be to change the 

8 status from in progress to in abeyance.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Because we are really 

10 just waiting for what: wrap-up?

11 MR. MARSCHKE: We are just waiting 

12 for wrap-up. 

13 Now the second portion about the 

14 database link to the clarification responses, 

15 you can see right here is the related link and 

16 when you click on it, that portion of the 

17 database is not working since we have made the 

18 migration from the ORAU machine to the OCAS 

19 machine.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Are we going to be 

21 able to make it work?
163

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I thought we 

2 had that in place but I guess I am wrong.

3 CHAIR MUNN: I thought we had. So 

4 is that your action, NIOSH, to get the hotline 

5 done?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Okay.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Do we have 

8 anything else to say about that? Is there 

9 anyone who disagrees that this is now in 

10 abeyance? Steve is updating the database as 

11 we sit here, getting the date and we are 

12 changing it. 

13 MEMBER LEMEN: And we can pull 

14 these up?

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, you can.

16 MEMBER LEMEN: From the CDC 

17 website?

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, anywhere. 

19 MR. HINNEFELD: When you log on to 

20 our system, not from our public website, but 

21 when you log on to our system. 
164

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1 MEMBER LEMEN: If it ever works, I 

2 will do that.

3 CHAIR MUNN: And then it is 

4 accessible to you. All right.

5 The next item, as I indicated, 

6 first thing supposedly after lunch: OTIB7 0029-01 and -02 that were recently distributed 

8 to us. Responses to selected findings from 

9 third set. We have -- and who was the sender? 

10 Who is going to talk about this? It was just 

11 sent.

12 DR. ULSH: Probably us. Is that 

13 the one I sent Friday?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: No, I think 0029 --

15 What happened was we --

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: This is Mark. 

17 There was a NIOSH email on 3/19, I believe, I 

18 think from Brant.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: What happened was 

20 there was a -- Ron Buchanan had responded to, 

21 I think it was, OTIB-0057, and at the last go-
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1 round in November, I had promised to forward 

2 those responses to the Subcommittee.

3 In that response that Ron made on 

4 OTIB-0059-07, he included also responses to 

5 OTIB-0029 and, I believe, OTIB-0051. So when 

6 I sent out the response -- to fulfill my 

7 promise to the Subcommittee to send out Ron's 

8 responses to OTIB-0057, you also received his 

9 response to OTIB-0029, and I believe that is 

10 maybe why Wanda added that to the agenda.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I did add it to 

12 the agenda because it was new to me and it was 

13 sent as a different set than OTIB-0021 and 

14 OTIB-0057.

15 MEMBER GRIFFON: Just for 

16 clarification -- this is Mark again -- that 

17 Ron response -- I thought that had 21, 51 and 

18 57 in it.

19 CHAIR MUNN: That is correct. It 

20 did.

21 MEMBER GRIFFON: Not 29.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: No.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, I am sorry. 

3 Shooting from the hip again. I should know 

4 not to do that.

5 CHAIR MUNN: And those that just 

6 came -- so let me see where it came from.

7 DR. ULSH: I see that I sent out 

8 something, as Mark indicated, on 3/19, which 

9 would have been last Friday. Is Liz Brackett 

10 on the line?

11 MS. BRACKETT: Yes, I am here.

12 DR. ULSH: Okay. This response 

13 was written by you. Do you want to perhaps 

14 walk through?

15 MS. BRACKETT: Well, I was just 

16 frantically emailing people saying what is 

17 going on. I am trying to find these 

18 responses. I didn't know this was on the 

19 agenda and I don't know what issues we are 

20 addressing.

21 DR. ULSH: The one I see that we 
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1 have a more recent response that you wrote on 

2 January 14th is OTIB-0029-02. The initial 

3 SC&A finding was that the ORISE CER database 

4 of uranium urinalysis records for the Y-12 

5 site for 1950 through 88 was used without 

6 questioning the accuracy of these records. 

7 The records were used despite the problem 

8 pointed out by ORAU OTIB-0029.

9 CHAIR MUNN: And had an initial 

10 NIOSH response in July of last year and an 

11 SC&A recommendation from 12/17.

12 DR. ULSH: Right. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Whether either of 

14 these changes anything or has been added to 

15 the database, I don't know. We have SC&A 

16 recommendations for 0029-01 that is dated last 

17 December, and again, since these things have 

18 occurred since our meeting in November, I 

19 guess the real question is whether these items 

20 are currently on our database. Do they need 

21 to be incorporated? Do we have them 
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1 correctly? That is the real bottom line.

2 DR. ULSH: Well, I will chime in 

3 here and, Steve, correct me if I go off the 

4 rails. But I think the answer to your 

5 question, Wanda, about whether or not it is in 

6 the database is probably not, because this is 

7 in that interim period when the database was 

8 going to be migrated over to the NIOSH server.

9 So I don't think the database is 

10 up to date. Am I right, Steve?

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't think so. 

12 I think you are right, yes. I don't think it 

13 has been updated. I don't believe this has 

14 been added to the database, but the database 

15 is up to date. It has been migrated over and 

16 it was caught up on our side. It was up to 

17 date on our side.

18 DR. ULSH: Oh, okay.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: And any changes 

20 made since that time have to be made on our 

21 side. So now there may be information out 
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1 there that has not been added, but it is up 

2 and running, and it is up to date on our side, 

3 other than things that have been exchanged 

4 through email and have not been put in it.

5 DR. ULSH: Okay. All right, I was 

6 wrong. Liz, have you come up with it yet?

7 MS. BRACKETT: I just got emailed 

8 two copies of it.

9 DR. ULSH: Page six of six.

10 MS. BRACKETT: I don't have -- oh, 

11 okay, this is the addition of the information. 

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think so. 

13 Theoretically, the earlier information is 

14 already on the database, theoretically.

15 MS. BRACKETT: I believe that what 

16 happened at the last meeting was the question 

17 about -- you know, the OTIB said that there 

18 were these outstanding questions, but in fact, 

19 that was my mistake, that the office of the 

20 TBD had found this information and 

21 incorporated it into the TBD, but I did not 
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1 reference that. I didn't realize that this 

2 information had been put in there.

3 So this response was now pulling 

4 that information out of the TBD and showing

5 that it was available. I have had 

6 correspondence with one of the TBD authors 

7 since this was written where he said he found 

8 additional information on -- there is a factor 

9 of eight that is in that equation that isn't 

10 explained other than to say it is a constant 

11 incorporating various parameters and he found 

12 the documentation specifically on what that 

13 factor was. But I just got that at the end of 

14 February.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: This was discussed 

16 in the --

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: I am sorry to 

18 break in and this is Mark. That is the bottom 

19 line. I am in favor of including all of these 

20 if we can just figure out that factor of eight 

21 and put that to bed.
171

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1 MS. BRACKETT: Okay. I do have 

2 information on that now.

3 MEMBER GRIFFON: All right. If we 

4 can more clearly explain that, at least from 

5 my standpoint, speaking for myself.

6 MS. BRACKETT: Okay. Do you want 

7 to do that now or -- I assume that you want it 

8 in writing.

9 MEMBER GRIFFON: Well, Wanda, I 

10 guess you should probably submit it in writing 

11 like we usually would, right? So, yes.

12 CHAIR MUNN: But at least we can -

13 - we don't have it in writing anywhere, then; 

14 right?

15 MS. BRACKETT: I sent a note to 

16 Elyse at the end of February. So I am 

17 guessing that none of this has gone -- I 

18 didn't formally write it out, but I sent her a 

19 note saying that I had been provided this 

20 information from the TBD Office.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Steve, are we looking 
172

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1 at the correct communication?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know. This 

3 is what we received the other day from the 

4 email there and then it does talk about an 

5 equation that has a factor of eight in it and 

6 it defines -- underneath factor of eight is 

7 equal to a constant incorporating time, count 

8 and volume constants, including the 20 

9 milliliter electroplating volume.

10 MS. BRACKETT: But then there is 

11 nothing after that, is there?

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes. Then it 

13 says there is no information on UCC on what 

14 the constant includes or what the daily 

15 excretion was. So I think that is what you 

16 are saying you found more information on. 

17 Right, Liz?

18 MS. BRACKETT: Yes, I have one 

19 now. It says see below after that, and there 

20 is -- it is actually -- it looks like a copy 

21 of an old document like a picture from a typed 
173

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1 document explaining -- well, it gives some 

2 more equations.

3 MEMBER GRIFFON: Oh, great. So 

4 that might resolve all this, I think, in my 

5 mind.

6 MS. THOMAS: This is Elyse. Liz, 

7 we got that information after this response 

8 had been submitted to NIOSH, but before NIOSH 

9 submitted it to the Subcommittee. So we 

10 probably just need to collect it all in one 

11 place again to do that. That is what 

12 happened. 

13 MS. BRACKETT: Right.

14 DR. ULSH: So is it correct to say 

15 then that we will issue a revised response 

16 document to the Subcommittee for your review, 

17 and it will address specifically -- it will 

18 include what we've got here, what we sent out 

19 this past Friday, but then also some 

20 additional information on that factor of eight 

21 in the equation. Right?
174

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Is that right? Yes.

2 DR. ULSH: Elyse? Liz?

3 MS. TAYLOR: Yes, that sounds 

4 right.

5 CHAIR MUNN: All right. So it is 

6 a NIOSH action. Is there anything in -01 

7 that we need to address other than just seeing 

8 that it is incorporated -- that your most 

9 recent comments are incorporated into the 

10 database?

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Again, looking at 

12 what was sent out at the top of page 5 and 

13 what was sent out on Friday, the SC&A 

14 recommendation was to propose this. I think 

15 the date on that should be 11/17/2009.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think it 

17 probably should be. MR. MARSCHKE: 

18 That is when we had our meeting.

19 CHAIR MUNN: That was our meeting 

20 date.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Based upon what 
175

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1 happened at the meeting last time, we were 

2 satisfied.

3 CHAIR MUNN: So can we, on our 

4 database -- is there any objection to closing 

5 -01 on OTIB-0029?

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: I think this 

7 might have been held up for me, and I since 

8 have had a chance to review it, and I am 

9 satisfied with the NIOSH response to this one.

10 CHAIR MUNN: One is okay. We will 

11 get response for -02 next time. So we are 

12 going to close -01. Steve is doing it right 

13 now. 

14 DR. MAURO: I got a question. The 

15 material that we are talking about that was 

16 exchanged recently and the additional material 

17 that will be coming in which provides more 

18 elaboration on exactly the date, are those 

19 White Papers something that will be hooked 

20 into this, that becomes ultimately the 

21 technical basis for why they are closing it? 
176

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1 It answered our question. 

2 The question becomes, how is that 

3 captured in the database. I understand there 

4 is some difficulty incorporating PDF files and 

5 White Papers into the system because we do 

6 need that material on the record.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: There really 

8 shouldn't be that problem with that. It 

9 should just be a matter of getting the TST 

10 team to put the whatever folder -- I suspect 

11 that that folder with those other documents 

12 was not as apparent as the other folders that 

13 had to move over, and so the issue here is 

14 that, you know, when your application looks 

15 for a file, there is a certain presumption of 

16 where you are telling it to look. If you 

17 don't specify, it is going to look in the 

18 folder where it is, and that folder was not 

19 put over in the right place when it came over.

20 I think it is a simple fix. It is 

21 just a matter of our TST folks have to be able 
177

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1 to identify the folder as it existed on the 

2 ORAU side and put it in where it belongs on 

3 our side. I think that is a pretty simple 

4 fix.

5 So I think we will be able to use 

6 it and whether this is a White Paper or not, I 

7 don't want to say. It sounds like, if we have 

8 essentially an image of another document, that 

9 is something that will probably have to be put 

10 in as a link. But this response isn't so long 

11 that we couldn't just cut it and paste it.

12 CHAIR MUNN: No. I thought the 

13 response was just going to go into the 

14 database.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: The problem with 

16 putting the response in the database -- there 

17 are two things. One, Stu is right. If you 

18 look, there is no -- actually, there is no 

19 subfolder to these. Usually, there is a 

20 subfolder underneath here where all the PDF 

21 files are stored. There is no subfolder.
178

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1 The problem with cutting and 

2 pasting the thing in is that these fields, 

3 these ASCII -- these access fields are limited 

4 to only ASCII characters. You cannot put in a 

5 figure. You cannot put in a table. You 

6 cannot bold. You cannot underline. You 

7 cannot superscript. You cannot subscript.

8 So, basically, you are limited to 

9 ASCII, and a lot of the responses, a lot of 

10 the people who write these responses, you 

11 know, use Word and get very fancy with all 

12 their stuff, and all that is lost when you 

13 block copy paste into these access fields.

14 So in theory, we could take all 

15 these responses and put them in as links, but 

16 the other problem with that is you are only 

17 allowed one link per issue. Now we can 

18 combine multiple documents into one PDF file 

19 and overcome it that way, but there are 

20 certain things that have to be --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, just 
179

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1 reading this response, it looks like it is 

2 pretty much ASCII. This, we could clip and 

3 put in the database. Then, if the additional 

4 information requires this image, if we already 

5 have a link, we could use it for that and, if 

6 not, we would have to combine it with 

7 something.

8 DR. MAURO: Did I understand 

9 correctly that you said that, like, you could 

10 only have one link to each file here that you 

11 have on the screen, and the way to deal with 

12 that is to create a single folder that may 

13 have lots of different files.

14 In other words, let's say it turns 

15 out there are two or three pieces of 

16 information that going to go into a folder, 

17 each dealing with a different aspect of the 

18 problem. Can we put them in the same place? 

19 Is that what you are saying? 

20 Let's say there are three or four 

21 subjects being addressed.
180

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1 MR. HINNEFELD: What he said was 

2 you would append them into one file.

3 DR. MAURO: And they are appended 

4 into one file. So they will all be there, I 

5 would hope, in separate files.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Whenever you hit 

7 that link, you get them all.

8 DR. MAURO: You get them all. 

9 Well, that is okay.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Everything that is 

11 associated with this particular issue would 

12 come up. So again, this is one of those that 

13 doesn't have a link. Let's go back, just 

14 temporarily go back to 47, since it did have a 

15 link in 47.

16 The only place you can put the 

17 link is in this related link file, and you are 

18 only allowed to put one link in there. So 

19 whatever you put in there, you have to be all 

20 appended into the PDF file. 

21 So if NIOSH has a response and it 
181

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1 has figures and tables in it, and they put it 

2 in the PDF file, and then SC&A comes back, and 

3 we have figures and tables, we have to append 

4 our figures and tables into that. Otherwise, 

5 when you try to stuff it into the -- the 

6 tables get collapsed, and the figures just 

7 disappear.

8 DR. MAURO: So this one folder, 

9 when you can link to it, that one folder --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: One file will 

11 include --

12 DR. MAURO: -- include many 

13 others.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: It may include more 

15 than one document. It may actually end up 

16 looking something similar to what was sent out 

17 on Friday where you have, you know, an initial 

18 response, an SC&A recommendation, additional 

19 response, and then, you know -- so you would 

20 have several levels of detail in one file.

21 DR. MAURO: Well, my main concern 
182

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1 is that five years from now, when someone 

2 comes back and wants to see how a particular 

3 matter was resolved, and they go into this 

4 archive, that they can navigate their way 

5 through without pulling their hair out of 

6 their head.

7 CHAIR MUNN: We should be able to 

8 refer to the reference file, and in the 

9 reference file we should be able to include 

10 virtually any number of documents that were 

11 necessary for the closure of that particular 

12 item. Surely, there is no limit to the number 

13 of reference documents we could put into a 

14 reference file, is there?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: No. It is just 

16 work for the people who have to do it, because 

17 you have to create this PDF file every time, 

18 and you have to make sure that you don't 

19 overwrite. If I come up and I have a PDF file 

20 which is my response, and I go in and 

21 basically replace what NIOSH has put in there, 
183

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1 that is a no-no.

2 I have to make sure that, when I 

3 do it, I start with what was in there 

4 initially, like if I wanted to augment this 

5 particular issue and I had something which had 

6 figures and tables on it, I would have to go 

7 and pull this PDF file out and append to that 

8 PDF file additional information, and then 

9 restore it. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: And that is more 

11 complicated than what I was envisioning. You 

12 may be telling me that what I am envisioning 

13 is not technically possible. But I had 

14 envisioned a reference folder, a hotlink to a 

15 reference folder. I don't know where the 

16 reference folder would be, but in that folder 

17 one would be able to place virtually any 

18 number of documents, PDF files or whatever 

19 came to hand.

20 Does it have to be a PDF folder?

21 MR. MARSCHKE: The way the program 
184

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1 is written now -- I mean, technically you are 

2 absolutely correct, Wanda. You can write a 

3 program that will allow you to do that. The 

4 way this system has been written is we only 

5 allow one link to that reference.

6 You see, basically, your data up 

7 here -- this is your folder, reference 

8 document. This is the folder. You can have 

9 any number of PDF files in this reference 

10 document's folder, and the folder doesn't know 

11 where they are coming from. But in this 

12 detailed area, you have to put a link 

13 someplace.

14 Right now, the way the program has 

15 been structured, the only place you can put 

16 that link is right in this field here. You 

17 don't have additional fields. So you only 

18 have one link that gets you into the reference 

19 documents folder per issue.

20 CHAIR MUNN: So what you have to 

21 do essentially is convert anything that you 
185

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1 are going to put in there to a PDF file?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: And that is the 

3 other thing. The way this is written now is 

4 that it goes out and looks for a PDF file. It 

5 pulls this into a viewer, which is a PDF 

6 viewer.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Is this a shortcoming 

8 that we have overlooked in setting up the --

9 MR. MARSCHKE: It makes life 

10 perhaps a little bit more difficult. I don't 

11 know whether you would call it a shortcoming, 

12 but it should be something that you should be 

13 aware of when you are manipulating the data 

14 file or the database.

15 CHAIR MUNN: And how much 

16 bloodletting would have to occur to change 

17 that to the type of file more easily added to 

18 what I had envisioned earlier?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: That, I don't know. 

20 You know, where you have basically an 

21 unlimited number of links per issue; I don't 
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1 know how much that would take.

2 CHAIR MUNN: I wouldn't consider 

3 them to be unlimited, but it wouldn't surprise 

4 me to find that in some circumstances, we 

5 perhaps might need a folder as large enough as 

6 12 documents, not necessarily large documents 

7 but, you know, a dozen documents.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: It is not merely 

9 the size of the folder on it. It is where you 

10 have a field that specifies a link.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: So how many fields 

13 you want to specify a link to that folder, and 

14 whether or not -- there may be other ways to 

15 do this. I haven't talked to my IT people to 

16 find out. Again, right now we are not making 

17 any -- we have made the decision not to make 

18 any merely programming changes to this 

19 database.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Don't forget there 

21 is supposedly effort going on on our side on 
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1 document tracking. I am not up to date on 

2 where that is.

3 CHAIR MUNN: It would be really 

4 helpful for the two to get together and to try 

5 to identify how we can do this business of 

6 referencing multiple documents because, 

7 clearly, we can't put it all on this archive. 

8 If we can reference multiple documents into a 

9 folder somewhere that is electronically 

10 connected to this and, therefore, accessible 

11 for those who want to go from there.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I haven't heard 

13 anything from the developers for a while, and 

14 I know they were -- I was identifying 

15 priorities and rights for various players and 

16 not only for the Subcommittee but just 

17 different groups.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Am I off in left 

19 field thinking that this is the best of all 

20 possible worlds if we can get --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: I just have to get 
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1 with them and see where they're at -- I 

2 suspect they have been distracted on other 

3 things, and I haven't been bothered about it.

4 CHAIR MUNN: So can we ask that 

5 you give us information on that next time, 

6 because that is -- I guess I had some 

7 confusion in my mind with respect to what we 

8 were going to be capable of doing. I think 

9 that is what I was aiming for in earlier 

10 issues when I asked for --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, now we 

12 haven't really hit a real bad problem with 

13 this database yet, because there is no link on 

14 the one we were talking about where we might 

15 be able to put in a link. There is no link on 

16 that finding, so we haven't really run into a 

17 bad problem on the use of this database yet.

18 CHAIR MUNN: No, not yet.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I understand we 

20 could.

21 CHAIR MUNN: I see that coming.
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1 DR. MAURO: Then the problem would 

2 be -- the downside is that if, for some 

3 reason, the one we were just looking at does 

4 have a link, if someone was working that and 

5 wanted to add more material, they could put a 

6 link in. So that we would lose that one. You 

7 wouldn't even know that happened. All of a 

8 sudden, that would disappear and a new one 

9 would be in there, the other one would be lost 

10 forever to the archive.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the person 

12 who put it in there would have to know that 

13 they are renaming -- that they are naming 

14 their file exactly the name that is already 

15 there.

16 DR. MAURO: Mechanically, the 

17 person would open that up and drop in the 

18 material.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I think -- I'm not 

20 even exactly sure how it works, mechanically.

21 DR. MAURO: My only concern is 
190

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1 that, without realizing it, we may corrupt the 

2 archive and lose information that we didn't 

3 want to lose.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and we don't 

5 want to do that. We really don't want to do 

6 that.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think that 

8 will happen inadvertently. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: To take you back a 

10 little bit, we have run into the problem. The 

11 problem has arisen, and if you go back to 47, 

12 OTIB-0047, you can see we already have a 

13 related link in there in OTIB-0047, and then 

14 if you go back and look at the SC&A response 

15 of 8/11/2009, we have a -- actually, this is a 

16 Board file that had tables associated with it, 

17 and when the table got imported into this 

18 little box here, basically all the table 

19 structure got removed.

20 So all that you have here now is a 

21 whole bunch of numbers which really don't come 
191

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1 up. Now, if we had brought this into it as a 

2 linked document, we could have changed the 

3 Word file into a PDF file and put it in as a 

4 link. The table would be there, and the 

5 structure would have been maintained.

6 So it is not purely an academic --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Is that 0047-01?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: That is 0047-01. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: A perfect example of 

10 what we need to circumvent, one way or 

11 another. We are going to trust the program 

12 wizards have a way to do this. All right. We 

13 will ask for NIOSH to pursue that for next 

14 time.

15 For this current moment, I am 

16 gathering that -- did I understand you 

17 correctly, Steve? We can or cannot get our 

18 new information that we have here?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: We should be able 

20 to -- well, two things. One, we don't have a 

21 link already. We don't have a link that 
192

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1 already exists in 29-01 or 29-02, I don't 

2 believe. 

3 The other part is that, with the 

4 way NIOSH has written the response, it is 

5 appearing in an ASCII file. So it can be 

6 brought in.

7 CHAIR MUNN: So we can do it.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, into the 

9 access field without losing any formatting.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Let's request that 

11 you do that, not necessarily here right now. 

12 So I will put that as an SC&A action, to get 

13 that incorporated.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, NIOSH is 

15 going to update that response, and when the 

16 updated response comes, we will incorporate 

17 it. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: All right. I am 

19 trying to do three things all in one lump. 

20 Any other questions on 29, OTIB-0029? If not, 

21 we will go on to OTIB-0049-01, response to 
193

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1 contact with SC&A regarding the estimated 

2 doses for plutonium strongly retained in the 

3 lung. NIOSH?

4 DR. ULSH: I think we sent out --

5 let me make sure I have the right one here --

6 a response on this, 0049-1. Okay, I think 

7 this is one where it was Super S and there 

8 were iterations back and forth and we had some 

9 concerns that the dose reconstruction wouldn't 

10 really be conducted in the way that SC&A 

11 thought that it would. But we have not yet 

12 received a written response to that effect. 

13 Elyse, is that the one? Am I 

14 thinking of the right one?

15 MS. THOMAS: Yes, it is the one I 

16 sent you the long email string, and was 

17 whether or not to have a technical call or to 

18 call a technical call.

19 DR. ULSH: Right. I think at the 

20 last meeting of this Subcommittee we had 

21 discussed whether or not it would be 
194

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1 productive for SC&A and NIOSH to have a 

2 technical call to discuss this issue. That 

3 didn't come to pass and we didn't do it and I 

4 think we decided instead to task ORAU with 

5 writing a written response that we would 

6 present to SC&A. That has not yet been done.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is Ziemer. 

8 The note I have was that NIOSH was going to 

9 provide a written response first and then 

10 determine whether a technical call was needed.

11 DR. ULSH: So that has not been 

12 done yet, Wanda. 

13 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

14 DR. ULSH: I would say that that 

15 would be on the next meeting agenda.

16 CHAIR MUNN: That is a carryover. 

17 So we are expecting a written response from 

18 NIOSH. Right?

19 DR. ULSH: Right.

20 CHAIR MUNN: The next item is 

21 OTIB-0057, review current material to be sent 
195

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1 to the Committee and provide the hotlink for 

2 the supporting data. SC&A.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Was that 67 or 57?

4 MR. KATZ: Fifty-seven, Paul.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Fifty-seven, five6 seven.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Five-seven, yes. 

8 Okay.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Is this one of the 

10 ones that I was talking about before?

11 CHAIR MUNN: I can't pull it up on 

12 my screen, so I don't know. We are relying on 

13 you, Steve.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: This is what we

15 have in the -- in Ron Buchanan's responses to 

16 OTIB-0057, I did incorporate those into the 

17 database. Now it says that these are --

18 okay.

19 The first one was -- I think the 

20 story here was this is the file that Ron --

21 which I spoke about previously when I got 
196

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1 confused. This is the file that Ron had given 

2 responses to and I was reading at the last 

3 meeting or maybe it was the October meeting --

4 I was reading from Ron's responses, and no 

5 one, even on the Subcommittee, had those 

6 responses or NIOSH didn't have those 

7 responses.

8 What I have done is I have 

9 uploaded Ron's responses into this database, 

10 and I have also sent an email with Ron's 

11 responses to the Subcommittee and to anybody 

12 that Wanda had put a reply-on line as agenda. 

13 So you should have Ron's file that has these 

14 responses in it.

15 If you go back to the October 15, 

16 2009 transcript, you will see that the 

17 Subcommittee basically agreed on 0057-01 to 

18 propose this item, and it is on page 201 of 

19 the transcript. You can see where that is 

20 written or that was talked about, and right 

21 now in the box called, SC&A follow-up, that 
197

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1 includes Ron's -- or SC&A evaluation of the 

2 NIOSH response. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: So we don't need a 

4 hotlink to support it?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Don't need a 

6 hotlink.

7 CHAIR MUNN: We have got it in 

8 here. Okay. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Now the same type 

10 of -- the same story is true on --57-02, and 

11 basically, the response from Ron here is he 

12 wanted to change this to in progress, and you 

13 see SC&A's response in 0057-03 as the reason 

14 why. Again, so I have updated the database to 

15 reflect that. 

16 MEMBER GIBSON: Can we go back to 

17 0057-01 for a minute?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, we can.

19 MEMBER GIBSON: In the attachment 

20 to the email that came out, it shows as of 

21 October 2009 that Ron said in abeyance.
198

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Ron?

2 MEMBER GIBSON: Is there something 

3 since then?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we did, in 

5 November at our meeting we talked about the 

6 material that he sent.

7 MEMBER GIBSON: So this wasn't the 

8 latest version that came out in email the 

9 other day?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: SC&A recommended 

11 that it be in abeyance in Ron's 

12 recommendation. The Subcommittee determined 

13 that they wanted to close it.

14 MEMBER GIBSON: All right.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: You don't have to -

16 - I mean, the Subcommittee, obviously, did not 

17 have to follow the SC&A recommendations.

18 Now talking about the hotlink, 

19 this is the one where you might be needed. 

20 0057-03 -- you can see there is a link in 

21 0057-03. There is also a very big, bit --
199

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1 quite a detailed response. 

2 Again, there is a table in here 

3 which got collapsed and so on and so forth. 

4 So I don't know how readable the SC&A follow5 up on the database would be.

6 Now you can expand this -- I mean, 

7 right now a field is only two lines high. It 

8 is very difficult to read, but if you do the 

9 printout version of it, you get a bigger field 

10 so that you can print it out. You can see the 

11 whole thing.

12 DR. MAURO: That can't be done on 

13 the screen, though.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: It cannot be done 

15 on the screen.

16 DR. MAURO: Is that another 

17 limitation?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: No, it is not a --

19 it is a limitation, again, of the way that 

20 this system has been designed. You know, you 

21 can program the thing to do anything.
200

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1 CHAIR MUNN: But you can scroll 

2 through it.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: We can scroll 

4 through it.

5 CHAIR MUNN: You can read it.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Two lines at a 

7 time.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

9 DR. MAURO: I mean, if one of the 

10 areas -- if I wanted to read Ron's report, I 

11 have to print it out and that is fine. But 

12 right now sitting around the table if you 

13 wanted to read it on the screen, you can't do 

14 that.

15 CHAIR MUNN: No. It would take us 

16 a while.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: And the other 

18 thing, you would lose -- if you print it out 

19 from the way it is set up here now, you would 

20 lose all the structure of the table. What you 

21 should have done when we installed this --
201

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1 what we usually do -- what I try to do when I 

2 install it is I try and take the ASCII version 

3 of the response and put it into the field, the 

4 Access field, and then put the Word version of 

5 the response -- convert it to a PDF file, and 

6 attach that so that you can see the formatted 

7 version.

8 So I think what you will look at, 

9 if you go back up here and you look at what is 

10 the NIOSH initial response and then you look 

11 at the related link, which is the NIOSH 

12 response as well, I think you are going to 

13 get a duplicate. One is a duplicate of the 

14 other, only the -- again, the NIOSH response, 

15 if I recall correctly, it had some figures in 

16 it or something in it, maybe some tables, 

17 which -- you know, additional graphs and 

18 tables, full response in the related link.

19 CHAIR MUNN: In any case, we have 

20 two clear examples of why we need a little 

21 more tender loving care from the IT wizards. 
202

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1 Hopefully, we will have that by the time we 

2 meet next, and at least some feel for what is 

3 possible. If we are asking for 

4 impossibilities, then we will have to fall 

5 back and regroup, I guess.

6 DR. MAURO: You know, I would like 

7 to hear -- I mean, I understand we are talking 

8 about the mechanics of managing the database, 

9 but I would like to hear a little bit more. 

10 Apparently, there is a disagreement.

11 In other words, you folks have 

12 come up with an answer, but our people feel 

13 the issue is still in progress. I would like 

14 to hear some of the technical substance of 

15 what is at play here. What is the problem?

16 Obviously, we are not in 

17 agreement. Now we can't really tell what that 

18 is. Is there anyone who knows the story?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Not at this go20 round.

21 DR. MAURO: Okay.
203

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Not from SC&A's 

2 point of view.

3 DR. MAURO: So Ron isn't available 

4 to us on the phone to tell the story?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: No.

6 DR. MAURO: Should we get him on 

7 the phone or do you want to move on?

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: Well, John, I am 

9 with you, actually. If I am reading through 

10 that correctly, maybe it could move the ball 

11 along for the next meeting. It looks like the 

12 disagreement is the uncertainty that NIOSH is 

13 assuming for the doses, and they are saying it 

14 is 25 percent uncertainty based on the numbers 

15 derived from the accident, the criticality 

16 accident, and Ron is suggesting that a higher 

17 uncertainty is probably a more valid value.

18 I think he is recommending 50 

19 percent or something like that. Then I think, 

20 at the bottom of his rebuttal, he asks where 

21 the basis for NIOSH's 25-percent derivation 
204

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1 came from. So maybe that might be a starting 

2 point for NIOSH when they look back at this, 

3 is to answer that question; how did you come 

4 up with this number, and then we can continue 

5 this discussion at the next meeting.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I have a 

7 question about Ron. Are we talking about the 

8 SC&A response on October 2009? Is that the 

9 latest thing, the reason why it shouldn't be 

10 closed or is there something later?

11 DR. MAURO: Well, I got the sense 

12 that Ron is recommending -- just looking at 

13 it.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, he is 

15 recommending -- he is saying --

16 DR. MAURO: He has a problem.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, just reading 

18 -- that is apparently the last thing here is 

19 the October 2009. He has the table of doses. 

20 Before the table of doses -- and this is the 

21 issue, the evacuation following the 
205

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1 criticality, and there were some six or seven 

2 employees who were quite close to the 

3 criticality event, and their dose is 

4 determined by sodium activation in the blood. 

5 Okay? 

6 There is also a predicted dose, if 

7 you only use the one over r-squared from the 

8 number of fission -- because one over r9 squared was used for everybody else. You 

10 know, the people who were in the building but 

11 farther away did not get sodium blood 

12 analysis. They just assigned it based on one 

13 over r-squared.

14 Ron makes the statement in his 

15 response that all five workers, B, C, D and H 

16 -- that is five of the seven who were close --

17 determined by the blood analysis was less than 

18 the predicted by one over r-squared, but he 

19 presents the table right below. Unless 

20 something is mislabeled, it is exactly the 

21 opposite. 
206

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1 For all of those five workers, the 

2 dose by sodium activation is -- or by blood 

3 analysis is higher than the one over r-squared 

4 and it is in the table right where he made 

5 that statement. So there is either something 

6 mislabeled or something going on there.

7 The data in this table is 

8 consistent with the explanation that was 

9 provided by ORAU during the last meeting, 

10 which was the employees who were quite close 

11 to the event, first four on the table, didn't 

12 know where the criticality occurred and they 

13 didn't evacuate away from the criticality 

14 unnecessarily. In fact, one of them even had 

15 a particularly bad route in terms of going 

16 past -- I think, from one side past the 

17 criticality, the drum where it occurred, to 

18 another exit.

19 So there are people here who have 

20 significantly higher blood activation doses, 

21 according to this table, than you would 
207

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1 calculate by one over r-squared because they 

2 weren't at the one over r-squared. They went 

3 past the drum after the criticality when there 

4 were still some delayed neutrons coming off 

5 the criticality.

6 So other people who were far 

7 enough away did not really approach the drum 

8 in any meaningful fashion anyway on their way 

9 out of the building. So one over r-squared is 

10 appropriate. 

11 Now two of the seven close people 

12 are considered the benchmark people and their 

13 blood activation -- apparently, it was 

14 reconstructed that they took a direct route 

15 out, quickly out. They were not the real 

16 close ones. Their blood activation was 20 

17 rads and they are considered the benchmark for 

18 one over r-squared.

19 So all the one over r-squared 

20 doses are calculated as if, if you were that 

21 far away, your dose was 20 rads. Okay. So 
208

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1 unless there is something mislabeled in the 

2 table, Ron's discussion doesn't line up with 

3 the data in the table. 

4 So the discussion that George Kerr 

5 provided at the last meeting, that the reason 

6 that they used those two people is because 

7 they went out directly and it was a good way 

8 to use one over r-squared, and for all the 

9 other people in the building who would not 

10 approach the drum in any meaningful way on 

11 their way out of the building, one over r12 squared is a good approximation. But for 

13 these people who are close and didn't evacuate 

14 directly, one over r-squared isn't really the 

15 correct approximation. So you would use blood 

16 activation.

17 That was George's discussion last 

18 time, and that is where this is. As Ron has 

19 written this, or as the table is presented, it 

20 doesn't say anything about the argument that 

21 George made last time. 
209

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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: I agree with you. 

2 That is backwards from what Ron was saying in 

3 the paragraph. That is mislabeled or 

4 something, yes.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Unless the table 

6 is mislabeled or something, it is backwards 

7 from what Ron wrote.

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: That confused me 

9 as well, yes.

10 CHAIR MUNN: And we have not 

11 captured any of that discussion on the 

12 database.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Did we not give 

14 you a written?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: I think the 

16 discussion was -- the last time when we had 

17 this -- at the last meeting, we weren't using 

18 the database.

19 CHAIR MUNN: That's right. We 

20 were dead in the water.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. It was 
210

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1 problems with the database, and we decided not 

2 to utilize it. So the discussion that George, 

3 you gave, there is nothing in here. I guess 

4 we can go back to the transcript and try and 

5 pull something out of the transcript or I 

6 could just put in here a reference to see --

7 to the person to go see the description or the 

8 discussion that is contained within the 

9 transcript.

10 MR. KERR: Excuse me. This is 

11 George Kerr. Isn't the discussion in the Part 

12 2, OTIB-0047-02? Well, I can't see your 

13 database. I'm sorry, I've got an email here.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I think we are 

15 mainly on 0057-03, George.

16 MR. KERR: Yes. Well, the 

17 discussion was on 0057-02.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. It starts in 

19 0057-02, yes. I believe we provided -- it is 

20 not put in the database, but we did provide 

21 the written discussion, and that was what 
211

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1 George is speaking from.

2 George, if I had known you were on 

3 the phone, I would let you have the argument.

4 MR. KERR: No, that is fine.

5 CHAIR MUNN: So it is in writing 

6 somewhere. We just don't have it captured 

7 yet?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: It is not on the 

9 database yet.

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: That is correct.

11 It is in 0057-02.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, right.

13 CHAIR MUNN: That discussion is in 

14 0057-02?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: It is not in the 

16 database, but it is on the additional -- the 

17 document that was sent by email. 

18 DR. MAURO: And we have that. So 

19 it sounds to me, we have to ask Ron what is 

20 proper.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. This 
212

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1 sentence doesn't mesh with the table.

2 DR. MAURO: Right, got it. So we 

3 will take that.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Fifty-seven, 

5 two is where the discussion is going to take 

6 place?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: It addresses both 

8 -02 and -03, I believe. I believe it will 

9 address both. 

10 CHAIR MUNN: All right. So SC&A 

11 has an action and so does NIOSH with respect 

12 to the problem.

13 MEMBER LEMEN: So does that mean 

14 it is going to come up at the Subcommittee 

15 next time?

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it will. It 

17 will be on our action item listing.

18 The next action item on the list 

19 is OTIB-0051-01, link to the White Paper and 

20 closing on the database. The link to the 

21 White Paper in that?
213

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: No, we didn't get 

2 any links to the White Paper because we can't 

3 link. 

4 DR. MAURO: Notwithstanding the --

5 What I am looking at is, as of the last 

6 meeting, the last exchange, we had accepted 

7 that. Is that correct? 

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Recommended in 

9 abeyance. NIOSH has complied and update at 

10 the next Subcommittee meeting. That was back 

11 in June. Obviously, if you look at the 

12 status, the Subcommittee didn't agree with our 

13 recommendation and they kept it in progress.

14 CHAIR MUNN: And my note said we 

15 were going to close it on the database, that 

16 it was a NIOSH action -- the link to the White 

17 Paper and close on the database. Am I 

18 incorrect?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: The date of our 

20 last meeting?

21 CHAIR MUNN: November 17th.
214

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is Ziemer. 

2 In the October meeting we got the NIOSH 

3 response on 0051-01, and then in the November 

4 meeting -- let's see, 0051-01. Whatever was 

5 supposed to happen -- I guess just linking it 

6 had not occurred. That is why we carried it, 

7 I guess.

8 CHAIR MUNN: The link, and close 

9 the database.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. But we 

11 have the information. Right?

12 CHAIR MUNN: That was my 

13 understanding, that the White Paper resulted 

14 in everybody's agreeing, yes, that does it. 

15 But without some kind of link in there, there 

16 is no way to close it. Do we need to carry 

17 that one over?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Until we can make 

20 sure we know what we are doing, we will carry 

21 it. Steve is saying wait a minute.
215

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, 0057-01 we 

2 have -- 0057-02, we seem to have -- we do have 

3 0057-03, I should say. It has been closed and 

4 it does have a link to NIOSH's additional 

5 responses. This is 0057-03. 

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Three was closed.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: Three was closed.

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: I thought we were 

9 on 0051-03.

10 CHAIR MUNN: We are on OTIB-0051, 

11 finding one.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Fifty-one -- I'm 

13 sorry. Did I say 0057? Fifty-one, three. 

14 I'm sorry. Thank you.

15 DR. ULSH: Fifty-one, three is 

16 closed. Is that what you said?

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Fifty-one, three is 

18 closed, and it has a link. I had that in my 

19 notes from the October meeting. 

20 DR. MAURO: So do I understand 

21 this correctly? 0051-01, there has been 
216

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1 exchange of the material where, for all 

2 intents and purposes, SC&A and NIOSH are in 

3 agreement in principle, but it hasn't 

4 physically made it mechanically into the 

5 system. So for that reason, we are not making 

6 it closed. We are going to leave it open 

7 until we mechanically incorporate the 

8 material? I guess I am a little lost here.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

10 DR. ULSH: Wait, wait. I thought 

11 it was just a matter of updating the database 

12 and putting the correct link in.

13 DR. MAURO: That is what I meant, 

14 and that is the reason we are leaving it in 

15 progress even though we all agree, really, it 

16 is closed. We are going to leave it in 

17 progress because we mechanically couldn't 

18 really capture the information yet. It is 

19 sort of like a reminder.

20 CHAIR MUNN: That is correct.

21 DR. MAURO: I just want to 
217

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1 understand.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. We are all 

3 on the same page somewhere.

4 DR. MAURO: Somebody fix this, so 

5 we can close it.

6 CHAIR MUNN: I have it as a NIOSH 

7 action. 

8 The next thing I have is OTIB9 0021, both -01 and -02. That was one of the 

10 things that we received by email just last 

11 week. We just got an email transmitting about 

12 five pages with SC&A responses on it to some 

13 of the NIOSH responses. 

14 SC&A was -- their responses are 

15 shown in green and it was a broad printout of 

16 findings 1, 2 and 4 from OTIB-0021. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

18 CHAIR MUNN: And there are two 

19 pages of that that are OTIB-0021. I am unable 

20 to verify whether any of that has been 

21 captured on our database.
218

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: It is in the 

2 database.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. 

4 MR. MARSCHKE: This one actually -

5 - these were responses that NIOSH provided 

6 back, I think, in August. Ron Buchanan's 

7 responses were provided back in --

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: October.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: October, and we 

10 just have not -- as a Subcommittee have not 

11 discussed it, I don't think, and Ron recommend 

12 for 0021-01 is that he agrees with the NIOSH 

13 response. SC&A and NIOSH agree, and the 

14 procedure needs to be revised accordingly, and 

15 we recommend that the issue 0021-01 be changed 

16 to in abeyance.

17 CHAIR MUNN: And it is an action 

18 item for NIOSH to do the procedure. Right?

19 MR. MARSCHKE: And the revision.

20 CHAIR MUNN: The revision with the 

21 procedure, sections and items having already 
219

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1 been identified. And Item Number 2?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: So is it in 

3 abeyance?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Is there any question 

5 to that? It is a NIOSH item, and we are in 

6 abeyance.

7 MEMBER LEMEN: And both 1 and 2?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Number one.

9 CHAIR MUNN: No, just one. We 

10 take them one at a time. 

11 Then finding number 2. October, 

12 Ron says SC&A would like to see calculations 

13 showing how NIOSH revised the gamma on 99 

14 percent values in Table 3, page 11 of OTIB15 0021 for the years 1950, 53, and 55. He gives 

16 the rems for each of those. SC&A could not 

17 arrive at those values using the data in Table 

18 2 and the procedures stated in Section 7, page 

19 9, step 3 of OTIB-21.

20 Any discussion necessary on that?

21 DR. MAURO: Except I guess this 
220

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1 should be called in progress now, now that we 

2 have acted on it.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that is what Ron 

4 is recommending. It should be in progress. 

5 Any discussion here about that? Does NIOSH 

6 agree that needs to be done?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we will do 

8 it.

9 MEMBER LEMEN: That wasn't real 

10 enthusiastic.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Action item, 

12 NIOSH. 

13 MR. MARSCHKE: So the Subcommittee 

14 agrees that that is in progress.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Any disagreement with 

16 that? 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, was this 

18 just an issue of SC&A couldn't reach the same 

19 values? They weren't sure where the numbers 

20 came from, or what was --

21 CHAIR MUNN: That is what it looks 
221

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1 like.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: That is what it 

3 looks like.

4 CHAIR MUNN: It looks like they 

5 don't follow the math.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: So all they are 

7 asking NIOSH to do is show them where the 

8 calculations came from?

9 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. Yes. See 

10 the difference.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Again, that is all 

12 we are asking.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Not to do a new 

14 set of calculations, but just show where they 

15 came from?

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Exactly.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay.

18 CHAIR MUNN: And then the next 

19 item is finding number 4. In the October 

20 NIOSH response from Ron was that this was in 

21 progress. Section 7 Step 1 describes how the 
222

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1 1961 and later data was adjusted for less than 

2 a full year of dose results. However, the 

3 last sentence of that paragraph states that 

4 the data prior to 1961 was not adjusted, since 

5 it was apparently represented doses received 

6 during the entire year.

7 Note that SC&A does not suggest 

8 that the data prior to 1961 was quarterly 

9 data, but instead it was the sum of all 

10 badging periods for a year for an individual. 

11 However, this sum may be only for the partial 

12 year of badging caused by starting employment, 

13 ending employment, change in jobs, et cetera. 

14 It does not appear reasonable to assume that 

15 those data prior to 1961 are for full years, 

16 but the dose data for 1961 and after are for 

17 partial years and, therefore, were adjusted as 

18 described in Section 7 Step 1.

19 Does NIOSH have any documentation 

20 that the seeder data compiled for the epi 

21 studies are included or was adjusted for dose 
223

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1 data for a 12-month period? 

2 So there is a question.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: We will see what 

4 we can find out. 

5 CHAIR MUNN: Action, NIOSH. Do we 

6 agree that the status is in progress?

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Hearing no one to the 

9 contrary, the action will be changed to in 

10 progress. 

11 The next page is OTIB-0051-01.3.

12 DR. ULSH: Didn't we already cover 

13 that?

14 CHAIR MUNN: I think we have 

15 beaten that one to death.

16 DR. ULSH: We did cover that.

17 CHAIR MUNN: I wanted to make sure 

18 here. We did change it to in abeyance. 

19 MEMBER LEMEN: We said for -01 we 

20 might carry it over.

21 CHAIR MUNN: That was -01, 
224

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1 carrying over. Yes. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, -02 and -03, 

3 we said SC&A was going to follow up on.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Right. Correct.

5 MEMBER LEMEN: That was for 0057, 

6 though.

7 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB-0057. Correct. 

8 Now that brings us to where I have suggested 

9 we break. Are we ready for a 10-minute quick 

10 break or do we want to -- before we do that, 

11 let's do the one thing that Steve had asked us 

12 with respect to discussing the OCAS and ORAU 

13 documents for review, additional ones.

14 Let's do that before we have the 

15 break because I am afraid we are going to lose 

16 Dr. Lemen here very quickly and I would like 

17 for us to at least take a look at that and 

18 hear what Steve has to say. What are you 

19 folks looking at with respect to new documents 

20 for SC&A review that you are concerned with 

21 right now?
225

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: In the response to 

2 one of the -- and I forget which -- ones with 

3 a PROC. In the response to one of the PROCs, 

4 NIOSH had indicated that it was -- it referred 

5 us to report, RPRT document Number 44, and 

6 that led us to think, well, are there other of 

7 these RPRT documents out there which are 

8 technical in basis that maybe would benefit 

9 from an SC&A review.

10 So I went onto the O: drive, and I 

11 got a list of -- this is a list that is 

12 available. I think the date stamp on this was 

13 January of 2009 and there is a list here of --

14 well, I don't know -- of all the RPRT 

15 documents that were issued as of that date, 

16 plus, I think, -- RPRT 44 wasn't on that list, 

17 but I added it. 

18 Many of these report documents are 

19 purely administrative from NIOSH's point of 

20 view and, clearly, are outside of the realm of 

21 SC&A performing any kind of review on and I 
226

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1 have indicated that in the right-hand column 

2 with an N, which are not applicable for SC&A 

3 review.

4 There are some of them which, 

5 again -- and this is almost purely by a review 

6 of the title of the RPRT document -- which I 

7 think these have a potential for an SC&A 

8 review, and these have been indicated with a P 

9 in the SC&A -- in the right-hand column.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: What document are 

11 you referring to, Steve?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: This is -- did I 

13 send this to everyone? I forget. 

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. Steve sent an 

15 email on the 23rd.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: What is the 

17 document called?

18 CHAIR MUNN: I mean, on the 18th. 

19 It is just an email -- a note to me saying at 

20 next Tuesday's meeting SC&A would like to 

21 review, et cetera. It is from Steve. The 
227

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1 subject is, re: Procedures Committee Action 

2 Items for 3/23/10, email March 18.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: And what I am 

4 looking at, Paul, is an attachment to that 

5 which was a Word document that had this table 

6 in it.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay.

8 CHAIR MUNN: And I didn't get the 

9 attachment, frankly, Steve.

10 MEMBER GRIFFON: Would it be ORAU 

11 RPRT? That's the name of it.

12 CHAIR MUNN: That is the name of 

13 it, 0044. I didn't get the attachment. Just 

14 have your message.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: That is the gist of 

16 it. I can read some of the titles of the 

17 documents that we think may be potential for 

18 SC&A review. 

19 CHAIR MUNN: Does NIOSH have any 

20 specific feeling, one way or the other, about 

21 having these items in SC&A's purview for 
228

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1 review and, if so, we would sure like to hear 

2 it.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: There were a 

4 couple that, I think, are formalizations of 

5 White Papers that were presented during the Y6 12 Evaluation Report discussion. So there has 

7 been a fair amount of review on those already 

8 in the Y-12 Work Group.

9 So you pick out the ones that are 

10 Y-12, have Y-12 in the title. I think those 

11 are the ones that came -- They were generated 

12 out of that effort. 

13 So I mean, I think they have been 

14 vetted and essentially accepted in that venue, 

15 although SC&A could check against that menu to 

16 see whether there was review and so on and 

17 essentially agreement on those.

18 That is the only thing I would 

19 say, is I think those, I think, have been 

20 reviewed. Let's see if I can read these now.

21 CHAIR MUNN: There seemed to be 
229

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1 special interest in 0044. 

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Forty-four was 

3 brought up there, because that was really what 

4 turned us on to this. It was in response of -

5 -

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes. I think 

7 0044 is an appropriate one. I think I agree 

8 with Stu on the Y-12 ones, that we have looked 

9 at those during the SEC Evaluation and, if we 

10 need to further look at those, I would argue 

11 that it should be to finish out the Site 

12 Profile Review of Y-12, not in the context of 

13 the Procedure Review.

14 CHAIR MUNN: And 0044 is in the 

15 category, because it is purely a technical 

16 document?

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, and it 

18 doesn't seem to be site-specific. It is a 

19 technical document, an overarching document, I 

20 believe.

21 DR. MAURO: In fact, before this 
230

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1 meeting because I sent it off to Joyce 

2 Lipsztein, our internal dosimetry specialist, 

3 and I said, Joyce, will you take a quick look 

4 at this; is this something new and something 

5 important. Her response to me was, 

6 absolutely, this is new, and it is very 

7 important. 

8 So of all the list there, that is 

9 the only one where we took a pretty close at 

10 it to see are we dealing with something here 

11 that is of some importance overall to the 

12 program.

13 The other items have been very 

14 correct. They turn out to be mainly site15 specific. Looks like a lot of them are Y-12, 

16 and may turn out that there really is nothing 

17 there for us to do.

18 CHAIR MUNN: So for the purposes 

19 of this discussion, can we just limit 

20 ourselves to 0044?

21 DR. MAURO: That is certainly fine 
231

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1 with me.

2 MEMBER GIBSON: Well, what about 

3 37 and 42? Are they site-specific?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't think they 

5 are site-specific, but they are more -- Forty6 two is like a software quality assurance, a 

7 validation and verification. So it is a 

8 little bit of a different animal than what we 

9 are kind of -- all the QA/QC type of thing.

10 Thirty-seven, again, is errors 

11 tracking and reporting, and again it kind of 

12 falls in the range of quality assurance. So 

13 it is not so much of a technical point of view 

14 from a dose reconstruction or health physics 

15 or that type of thing, but it is -- I thought 

16 it was error tracking and quality assurance, 

17 which I know sometimes we used to get involved 

18 in at some point. So that is why I put the 

19 potential for those two.

20 So those two are a little less 

21 technical than 0044. Really, those are the 
232

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1 only three that are still up for discussion.

2 MEMBER GIBSON: It looks like the 

3 error tracking or reporting would have to go 

4 toward data quality, too, which we have had 

5 some concerns with.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. I don't know 

7 what that one says.

8 MEMBER GIBSON: In my view, 

9 there's a couple of the titles, even some that 

10 SC&A has marked no, that I think might be

11 useful as we look at the quality issues in the 

12 Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee. 

13 I am not sure we need SC&A to 

14 review them, but they might be informative to 

15 other issues that we are dealing with. But I 

16 would support a review. At this point, I 

17 would just support a review of 44, and the 

18 other one, like I said, might be for our 

19 information. I am not sure we need SC&A to 

20 review those.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Well, and validation 
233

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1 of software, frankly, falls outside of my 

2 perception of what we need to look at most

3 specifically. Is it the feeling of the 

4 Subcommittee that at this juncture, without a 

5 great deal of debate, we could simply agree 

6 that 44 would be a reasonable procedure for 

7 SC&A to undertake to review?

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: That seems

10 reasonable. Do you know what the date is on 

11 that one when it went into effect?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Forty-four?

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

14 MR. KATZ: We can get that.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: That is not 0044.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: I just wondered if 

17 it was fairly recent.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: It is fairly 

19 recent.

20 CHAIR MUNN: We are checking. 

21 That is the imperial we. 
234

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: 5/22/2009, one 

2 year.

3 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Hearing 

4 no objection, SC&A is authorized to proceed 

5 with a review of RPRT-0044.

6 Does anyone have any fragment of 

7 wisdom to pass along before we break for 10 

8 minutes? If not, we are on break until five 

9 minutes after the hour.

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

11 matter went off the record at 2:55 p.m. and 

12 resumed at 3:06 p.m.)

13 CHAIR MUNN: Let us go ahead and 

14 restart with our 2:45 item: provide responses 

15 for OTIB-0054. That is a carryover for NIOSH.

16 DR. ULSH: I don't know that we 

17 have anything to report on that. Elyse, do 

18 you have anything on that?

19 MS. THOMAS: No. We have started, 

20 but we don't have our responses complete yet.

21 CHAIR MUNN: All right. We will 
235

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1 carry it.

2 The next item: Certify OTIB-0014 

3 and ORAU TIB-0014 are correctly noted on the 

4 database. That is an SC&A action.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: What was the intent 

6 of that, Wanda? Refresh my memory.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Apparently, we had 

8 some discrepancy on how these two documents 

9 were listed on the database. I guess I would 

10 have to go back and check. We carried that 

11 over for a couple of meetings since, as we all 

12 repeatedly said, we were unable to do anything 

13 to the database in November. 

14 MR. MARSCHKE: We have OCAS TIB15 14, and we have that here and we have three 

16 issues associated with it. Now ORAU TIB-0014 

17 --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: This would carry 

19 over, actually, back in October was a carry20 over as well. So this goes back a ways. I 

21 don't see it in November.
236

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1 CHAIR MUNN: No, I don't think we 

2 had the database to work with in November. So 

3 we had to suspend belief on many things. It 

4 may be necessary to check transcripts of 

5 earlier meetings to see what the issue might 

6 be. Steve is trying to sort for the numbers 

7 to see what we come up with.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: TIB-0014 in August 

9 was awaiting a NIOSH response, according to my 

10 notes from August. That was TIB-0014.

11 CHAIR MUNN: And not OTIB-0014.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: I have October. I 

13 have virtually the same thing for TIB-0014, 

14 NIOSH needs to provide input.

15 Oh, OTIB-0014 was SC&A reviewed 

16 it, and we did not find any -- I think this 

17 was transcript; let me see what it says. 

18 OTIB-14 has to do with -- the issue was 

19 particular care must be taken when assigning a 

20 construction worker to a given category of 

21 exposure due to highly diverse nature of the 
237

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1 exposures that some construction workers 

2 experienced.

3 We had indicated that as 

4 transferred to the review of OTIB-52. So I 

5 don't understand what the --

6 CHAIR MUNN: I had thought there 

7 was a confusion between OTIB-14 and TIB-14, 

8 the ORAU document with a similar number, but 

9 our only concern was whether or not it was 

10 shown correctly and there was only one 

11 document -- we don't have an ORAU TIB-14.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: I mean, that is 

13 nothing -- the numbering scheme -- ORAU 

14 doesn't make TIBs.

15 CHAIR MUNN: No, that couldn't be 

16 right. 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: TIB has got to be 

18 an OCAS TIB.

19 MR. SIEBERT: That is not 

20 necessarily true.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: No?
238

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1 MR. SIEBERT: Part are called ORAU 

2 TIBs or OTIBs.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, but for the 

4 vernacular we use here, Scott, is that if we 

5 are looking at ORAU TIB, we call it an OTIB, 

6 because that is the shorthand in the title. 

7 MR. SIEBERT: Okay. I am just 

8 making sure there is clarification.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, you got it 

10 right. We just call them here OTIBs because 

11 that is the initials in the title, whereas, 

12 our TIBs, the initials in the title are TIB.

13 MR. SIEBERT: Sure. I just think, 

14 you know, OTIB-14 happened to be 

15 environmental type stuff, low exposure, and I 

16 didn't know if that might tie in.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: TIB-14 is here. 

18 TIB-14 has to do with Rocky Flats internal 

19 dose co-worker.

20 CHAIR MUNN: And we haven't even 

21 touched that one.
239

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: So far. 

2 DR. MAURO: That is Lockey. 

3 Transfer this to Lockey?

4 CHAIR MUNN: No. It hasn't even 

5 been addressed yet. 

6 MR. MARSCHKE: We haven't talked 

7 about this -- TIB-14, there is nothing talked 

8 about at the Subcommittee level.

9 DR. MAURO: Does Rocky have an 

10 active Work Group or that is closed?

11 MR. HINNEFELD: No, they do not 

12 have an active one.

13 CHAIR MUNN: It is closed. So 

14 OTIB-14, we have noted correctly. Right?

15 MR. MARSCHKE: OTIB-14 has one 

16 issue associated with it, and it was to 

17 transfer it to OTIB-52.

18 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB-52. So that is 

19 -- all right, I am going to take this off of 

20 my action item list because it appears to me 

21 that that is done properly. The only thing 
240

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1 that we have -- that means we still haven't 

2 opened the item that NIOSH hasn't addressed, 

3 but that is just along with all other open 

4 items. All right.

5 The next item I have is a 

6 carryover, reporting on the status of TIB-10-8 

7 for a possible closure.

8 DR. ULSH: I don't have anything 

9 on that, Wanda. Elyse, do you know anything 

10 about 10-8?

11 MR. HINNEFELD: That is ours.

12 DR. ULSH: Never mind, Elyse.

13 MS. THOMAS: Okay.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: This is the Monte 

15 Carlo runs that was made. I am bringing it 

16 up, but I am sure it was. Basically, we had 

17 asked to look at the Monte Carlo runs that 

18 confirmed the Attila runs that you guys made. 

19 I guess what we are waiting on -- or at one 

20 point NIOSH was going to give us those runs, 

21 the MCNP runs, and we were going to look at 
241

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1 them. That is what we are waiting on under 

2 here. 

3 CHAIR MUNN: Another carryover, 

4 right? 

5 The next item, to approve the 

6 transfer of Work Group TBD-6000 Finding 6 to 

7 us and set its priority. I think we sent the 

8 material to you when Dr. Ziemer transferred 

9 that item over to us. I have to have your 

10 approval before I can sign the yes, we have 

11 received it and accepted it note back to Dr. 

12 Ziemer. 

13 Is there any concern over our 

14 acceptance of that item and inclusion on our 

15 database? Anybody have a problem with that? 

16 If not, then I will consider myself authorized 

17 to sign and return the transfer notification 

18 to Dr. Ziemer.

19 DR. MAURO: This is an incoming?

20 CHAIR MUNN: This is incoming.

21 DR. MAURO: So this is -- what? 
242

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1 Issue 6 on TBD-6000?

2 CHAIR MUNN: Correct.

3 DR. MAURO: That is coming in 

4 here, which probably -- I am not sure what 

5 that deals with.

6 CHAIR MUNN: I will get that to 

7 you, John.

8 DR. MAURO: Our review of TBD9 6000?

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. You should have 

11 it, yes. Okay.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Do we add it to the 

13 database?

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we will be 

15 adding it -- we now officially need to add it 

16 to the database. 

17 DR. MAURO: Yes, Task 6 -- or 

18 Issue 6.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Correct. The next 

20 item, OTIB-70. Responses are due from NIOSH.

21 DR. ULSH: We have recently picked 
243

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1 this one up. So it is in progress, but we are 

2 not done with it yet.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Are we properly 

4 showing here that it is in progress?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Which one is it?

6 CHAIR MUNN: OTIB-70.

7 DR. MAURO: This would be a nice 

8 one to engage at so many sites.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Really and truly, 

10 this will be a biggie.

11 DR. ULSH: Would you like me to 

12 assign some priority to that over other items 

13 on the agenda?

14 CHAIR MUNN: I think it would be 

15 wise to do so, given the amount of interest 

16 that has been expressed in it in other 

17 meetings.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, we have --

19 CHAIR MUNN: The old facilities, 

20 and there is, as you can see, a handful of 

21 items involved there. 
244

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Fifteen issues, all 

2 open.

3 CHAIR MUNN: There is a lot, and 

4 since they are -- am I remembering correctly? 

5 These are all AWEs?

6 DR. MAURO: Its most applicability 

7 is AWE. It has to do with how you deal with 

8 residual period. In general, the residual 

9 period is a big deal at AWE sites.

10 DR. ULSH: Okay. We will give 

11 that attention.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you. PROC13 0042, Finding 6 to be formulated and added to 

14 the database, SC&A. 

15 MR. MARSCHKE: PROC-42. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is a problem 

17 with the workbook that Ron Buchanan pointed 

18 out, and the scaling factor.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, okay. It is 

20 still outstanding.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: That was one where 
245

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1 the issue didn't appear as a finding but it 

2 did show up in the report, and SC&A was going 

3 to add it as a finding, I believe.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, I remember. 

5 Now that you remind me, Paul, I remember it, 

6 and it slipped through the cracks. It was not 

7 done.

8 CHAIR MUNN: I think that is why 

9 the language says "to be formulated."

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. The other 

11 part of it was that I think ORAU indicated 

12 that the notebook wasn't used in the way that 

13 perhaps that Ron Buchanan noted. They never 

14 scaled the dose downward.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: That is correct. 

16 They never used the negative scaling factor.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: I remember that. 

19 So, basically, we could -- we will add it. We 

20 will discuss --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: But SC&A was 
246

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1 supposed to make it an official finding. It 

2 was just an observation, and I think SC&A was 

3 going to revise their -- maybe they were going 

4 to revise the report.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: No. I think the 

6 issue was in the report, Paul.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. It was in 

8 the report, but it wasn't a finding.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: It never got 

10 carried over into the database. Basically, we 

11 did this in two steps. We wrote the report.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. It wasn't 

13 in the matrix then. Maybe that was the deal.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: And then we wrote 

15 up the -- yes, then we had made the database, 

16 and we converted everything over from the 

17 reports to the database.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. Okay.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: And sometimes we --

20 we missed this one.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, that was it.
247

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: And so we just have 

2 to go back and add this, and we can add the 

3 discussion that was presented. I remember 

4 discussing this either in November or October 

5 or last time we met. We can add that 

6 discussion, and essentially -- well, then we 

7 will leave it to the Subcommittee to -- but it 

8 sounds to me like it is pretty well -- you 

9 know, since NIOSH doesn't use the workbook in 

10 that manner, it is almost a no, never mind.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right, and that 

12 way we can put it to bed.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Exactly. We will 

14 add it, and then the next time we meet we will 

15 close it. I guess that is a carryover.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Does anyone have 

17 anything else before we address administrative 

18 issues and schedule?

19 DR. ULSH: I already talked to 

20 Wanda about PROC-95.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.
248

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Are we ready to look 

2 at calendar?

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

4 MR. KATZ: Did you get dates from 

5 Dick, Wanda, before he left?

6 CHAIR MUNN: He said the one that 

7 I was aiming for, which is May 12th, would be 

8 fine for him. 

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda?

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes?

11 MR. MARSCHKE: There is one thing. 

12 Again, Russ sent responses to PROC-95, and we 

13 did look at those, and we do have -- and I 

14 don't know that I sent to the Work Group or 

15 the Subcommittee yet the -- NIOSH has gone 

16 through -- or SC&A has gone through those, and 

17 we do have recommendations. 

18 They are not either in the 

19 database or they are not in -- they have not 

20 been sent by email to the Subcommittee because 

21 we just kind of got these at the last moment.
249

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1 If you want -- I mean, the first 

2 one -- we have the file here. We can put it 

3 up on the screen, or we can just wait until 

4 next time, and I can update the database and 

5 send it to the Subcommittee so that --

6 DR. ULSH: Yes, that is what I was 

7 asking about on the first one. I didn't think 

8 we had covered this.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Well, all I had was 

10 to provide responses for PROC-95. There were 

11 two, and to load responses into the database 

12 and assure the paragraphs were numbered 

13 properly for TIB-13.

14 Elyse said that that was her job 

15 to do and that she would do it this morning. 

16 Elyse, are you still there?

17 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Did I misunderstand?

19 MS. THOMAS: No, that is correct. 

20 I have not put our responses in the database 

21 because I just got access recently. 
250

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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. The database 

2 has not been updated with either the NIOSH 

3 responses or the SC&A recommendations, and 

4 nobody has seen the SC&A recommendations 

5 except for what is up here on the screen right 

6 now. So the question is do we want to go 

7 through these at this -- obviously, Paul and 

8 Mark will be kind of left in the dark.

9 CHAIR MUNN: And so will Dr. 

10 Lemen.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: And Dr. Lemen.

12 MEMBER GRIFFON: I don't know. 

13 The recommendations that I see from NIOSH are 

14 to basically defer them to other places. So I 

15 don't see any big deal in closing these items 

16 out. 

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Our recommendation 

18 for 95-1 was to close it; 95-2 was to transfer 

19 it to OTIB-19.

20 MEMBER GRIFFON: Right, which is 

21 what NIOSH is recommending, too, and 3 is 
251

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1 going to the report 44.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. I mean, we 

3 could either -- we had it as in progress, but 

4 if you wanted to transfer it to report 44, 

5 which you guys have just assigned us, then 

6 that would be -- you know.

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: The only question 

8 I would have -- and I don't know if Liz is 

9 hanging in there, but I am a little curious if 

10 -- maybe I am misreading that, but report 44 -

11 - it seems like that wouldn't necessarily be a 

12 procedure that would guide a dose 

13 reconstructor. Rather, it is a report, but 

14 maybe you are using this as guidance as well. 

15 It seems like it is an issue dealing with the 

16 sensitive data and how to handle it.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

18 MEMBER GRIFFON: Shouldn't that be 

19 in the procedure, rather than just in a 

20 report?

21 MS. THOMAS: I don't remember why 
252

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1 it was written as a report rather than -- it 

2 is not something that the dose reconstructors 

3 use. It was written for a co-worker study.

4 MEMBER GRIFFON: Right. It is 

5 needed in the co-worker stuff. Yes. That is 

6 true. At any rate, this is the co-worker 

7 model procedure, and I thought, just as far as 

8 where to deal with the issue, it seemed to me 

9 it was -- I don't know, and I don't know

10 exactly how you deal with reports versus 

11 procedures. 

12 I guess as long as it is captured 

13 somewhere and it is correctly done I don't 

14 think it is a problem. That was the only 

15 question I had.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Well, it might be a 

17 problem if we are going to be looking at 

18 procedures that are characterized as reports 

19 at some juncture in the future, if that 

20 continues to be an issue for us.

21 I am willing to follow the 
253

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1 direction of the rest of the Subcommittee in 

2 this respect, but because nobody but Mike and 

3 I are here in person right now, I am hesitant 

4 to do anything other than have the responses 

5 loaded into the database at this juncture, 

6 although if you -- Paul, how do you feel about 

7 it?

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I kind of 

9 agree with Mark, and I am willing to go ahead 

10 if the others are okay with it.

11 MEMBER GRIFFON: We are not really 

12 leaving the findings on the second and third 

13 one. We are just transferring them to other 

14 procedures, and we will still address them. 

15 It is not like we are losing the technical 

16 discussion.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.

18 CHAIR MUNN: So our preference 

19 then is that Elyse will go ahead and upload 

20 the NIOSH responses, and following that Steve 

21 will magically add in the SC&A responses, and 
254

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1 Item 1 then will be changed to closed. Item 2 

2 will be transferred, and Item 3 will go to 

3 Report 44. Correct?

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

5 MEMBER GRIFFON: That sounds good.

6 CHAIR MUNN: All right with you, 

7 Mike?

8 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes.

9 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

10 DR. ULSH: Steve, which one did 

11 you recommend transfer to for PROC-95-2? Was 

12 that OTIB-19?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

14 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Any other 

15 issues we didn't touch on? I guess we could 

16 give Steve an opportunity to fill in the 

17 blanks. That would be helpful. 

18 MR. KATZ: We could do the 

19 calendar while Steve is typing.

20 CHAIR MUNN: As much as I would 

21 like to schedule a meeting of this group in 
255

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1 April, it is not going to be possible to do 

2 so. 

3 In May, the week prior to the 

4 meeting in Buffalo, the SEC Issues Group is 

5 going to be meeting here on May 11th. I would 

6 suggest that, if at all possible, this 

7 Subcommittee meet the following day on May 

8 12th. There are a couple of reasons for that.

9 One is I believe I will be able to 

10 travel that week. I am not sure. The other 

11 is we would really like to have a small little 

12 get-together the night of the 11th, if we 

13 could, for Larry Elliott, and if we can set 

14 our meeting in such a way that it meshes with 

15 the other meetings that are already on the 

16 calendar.

17 I recognize the problem, 

18 especially that NIOSH has with regard to 

19 preparations for the New York meeting, but 

20 waiting more than essentially eight weeks for 

21 another meeting here really does put us in a 
256

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1 slowed down procedural process where everybody 

2 forgets what we were talking about the last 

3 time.

4 We have a large burden of carry5 overs here, and SC&A will have quite a bit to 

6 do between now and then. I think probably 

7 their efforts may be the bulk of our 

8 activities next time, but anyone who has any 

9 feelings one way or the other about whether we 

10 can do a meeting on May 12th, please speak 

11 now.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is Ziemer. 

13 You may recall, we are also trying to schedule 

14 TBD-6000, and we are down to two dates for it, 

15 either the 10th or the 12th. I haven't heard 

16 yet from Bob Anigstein from SC&A on his 

17 schedule, and I haven't heard from John Poston 

18 yet. So I am still waiting to hear from them, 

19 but for the ones involved in that one, it 

20 would be Josie, Wanda, Mark, Poston and me, 

21 and then Dave Allen for NIOSH and Dick Stein 
257

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1 for SC&A. But so far the 10th and the 12th 

2 are both clear dates.

3 I think, for Mark, the 12th was 

4 the best. Wanda, you said the 12th was the 

5 best for you also.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: But that was 

8 before you were talking about this group 

9 meeting. I suppose the 13th might also be a 

10 possibility, if we got into that.

11 CHAIR MUNN: There is the 

12 Surrogate Data Work Group telecom that day, 

13 but it is only half a day. It is in the 

14 afternoon.

15 MR. KATZ: I don't think the 13th 

16 will work for that reason.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, that is right. 

18 That is at one o'clock on the 13th. Although 

19 Dave Allen indicated he was okay to meet on 

20 that date, I haven't got a confirmation from 

21 him that they have finished going through all 
258

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1 of the General Steel Industries documents that 

2 were, I think, basically obtained with Dr. 

3 McKeel's help. So I am not sure where he is 

4 on those, but I made the assumption when he 

5 said he was available that he would have 

6 finished that review because that is critical 

7 to the TBD-6000 meeting.

8 So that is the other piece of the 

9 picture we need to be aware of.

10 MR. KATZ: Mark, if you are booked 

11 on the 10th and the 12th, that would work for 

12 you?

13 MEMBER GRIFFON: Not very well, 

14 but I would -- the 11th, 12th and the 

15 Surrogate, I could do. The 10th is pushing it 

16 for me, other commitment-wise.

17 MR. KATZ: Okay, because for the 

18 TBD-6000, we need you.

19 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, I know. I 

20 know, and I don't want to miss that one or the 

21 Procedures.
259

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1 CHAIR MUNN: How much overlap do 

2 we have between 6000 and Surrogate Data?

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right now, not a 

4 whole lot. The Surrogate Data is essentially 

5 6000 in terms of Texas City, but TBD-6000 

6 isn't handling the Texas City one. 

7 Then presumably, the 6001 stuff is 

8 going to be a separate Work Group, but I 

9 haven't heard from Jim yet.

10 MR. KATZ: But that is correct, 

11 Paul. That is correct. It is going to be a 

12 separate Work Group.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: I had thought 

14 initially that -- I think, in terms of 

15 volunteers, several people who volunteered for 

16 that were also on the 6000, but I don't know 

17 that that has been established yet for sure.

18 CHAIR MUNN: I haven't seen 

19 anything.

20 MR. KATZ: It is not out yet. It 

21 is not finished yet.
260

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1 CHAIR MUNN: So in terms of 

2 people, the 6000 and Surrogate Data Work 

3 Groups don't overlap very much, do they?

4 MEMBER GRIFFON: I think it is 

5 just Paul and I. Right, Paul, that overlap?

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: I am on that one, 

7 and I am on the SEC Work Group on the 11th.

8 CHAIR MUNN: So being purely 

9 selfish here, I am still looking at May 12th 

10 for this group. 

11 MR. KATZ: But, Wanda, that pretty 

12 much will knock out our being able to have 

13 that TBD-6000 Work Group then because Mark is 

14 not going to be able to do four days of Work 

15 Groups that week.

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: I can't do four 

17 days in Cincinnati anyway.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I was going to 

19 say he could just bring his bicycle. He will 

20 be fine, I am sure. You can do it, Mark. You 

21 are the iron man, right?
261

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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MR. KATZ: Can we back up a little 

3 bit on the Procedures in terms of dates from 

4 the 12th?

5 CHAIR MUNN: I can't travel.

6 MR. KATZ: Before that week?

7 CHAIR MUNN: I doubt it very much 

8 that I would be able to.

9 MS. HOWELL: The 14th?

10 CHAIR MUNN: I could do the 14th.

11 MR. KATZ: Oh, my gosh. But 

12 considering there is a Board meeting the next 

13 week, that is fairly brutal for everyone. I 

14 think SC&A is getting red. I think that is 

15 pretty ugly. I will do whatever anyone wants 

16 myself. It is not my problem, but --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I am not 

18 sure which is the most critical. We can 

19 certainly have the -- we can have the TBD-6000 

20 later, but it is going to end up in June, if 

21 we do that.
262

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1 CHAIR MUNN: Or earlier -- I could 

2 certainly -- I could be on the telephone for 

3 TBD-6000 if it were done the preceding week.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, the 

5 preceding week, Ted Katz isn't available.

6 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: You had narrowed 

8 it down from a lot of dates. I know that, 

9 Paul. Right? 

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: What's that?

11 MEMBER GRIFFON: You had narrowed 

12 it down from a lot of dates.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, right, and 

14 Mark, you are not available between the 13th -

15 - I had the 13th, 14th, 23rd and 27th -- on 

16 any of those dates -- well, the 13th and 14th, 

17 we have several people not available.

18 MR. KATZ: I am not sure that I am 

19 not available the first week in May. I think 

20 I am.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, first week in 
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1 May? No, I am not available the first week in 

2 May. 

3 MR. KATZ: Oh, you are not?

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: No. 

5 MEMBER GRIFFON: What were the 

6 other ones again, Paul? The 13th and 14th are 

7 definitely out for me. April we are talking 

8 about?

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. The 23rd 

10 and the 27th I had, but the 27th was out for 

11 Katz, and the 26th was out for Mark.

12 MR. KATZ: Email me. I will try 

13 to make it.

14 MEMBER GRIFFON: I was going to 

15 say I could do the 27th, but I can't do the 

16 23rd, no.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. And Wanda 

18 can't be available in March -- or April, 

19 rather.

20 CHAIR MUNN: No, but I could call 

21 in.
264

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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Could call in.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. I think it 

3 would be all right. So?

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, the only one 

5 of those maybe that would be possible would be 

6 the 23rd, I guess, but you are not available, 

7 Mark. You would have to call in. Right?

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: And even if I 

9 could call in, I still might miss part of it.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. So that 

11 wouldn't be good.

12 MS. HOWELL: What about the 18th?

13 MR. KATZ: So Emily is just asking 

14 about the 18th in Buffalo. We are there the 

15 19th, 20th, 21st. 

16 CHAIR MUNN: But it is not 

17 Buffalo. It is Niagara Falls. 

18 MR. KATZ: Paul, do you expect 

19 that this TBD-6000 meeting possibly will be 

20 closing out the Work Group's work on GSI?

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: That is going to 
265

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1 be very dependent on where Dave Allen is on 

2 their review of the materials. I don't have a 

3 hint at the moment. I guess I am going to be 

4 surprised if we can close out. There's a lot 

5 of issues. I would like to be able to. There 

6 has certainly been pressure on us to close 

7 that out.

8 MEMBER GRIFFON: Paul, what if we 

9 said here that May 12th will either be TBD10 6000 or the Procedures Subcommittee, depending 

11 on what you hear from Dave, because he may not 

12 even be ready. Right?

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, that is a 

14 possibility. I would say let's reserve it, 

15 and then whichever.

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: Reserve the day. 

17 I don't know. I would argue, if Dave is 

18 ready, that is probably a little more 

19 pressing, the 6000 group.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, you are probably 

21 correct. I am certainly open to Emily's 
266

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 suggestion. I have no problem with 

2 considering the 18th for this meeting in 

3 Buffalo or Niagara Falls.

4 MR. KATZ: Niagara Falls. Mark, 

5 can you handle that?

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: I guess. I am 

7 just afraid, if it is an aggressive agenda, 

8 you know, if we are all trying to get ready 

9 for the --

10 MR. KATZ: Yes. Well, it is going 

11 to be a -- it is going to be a busy Board 

12 meeting again, like the last one.

13 MEMBER GRIFFON: Right.

14 CHAIR MUNN: But then there are 

15 advantages as well. 

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, let's go 

17 ahead and block off the 12th, and I will talk 

18 to Dave Allen and see what we can do and let 

19 you know.

20 CHAIR MUNN: So tentatively, we 

21 are going to say 6000 on the 12th. Right?
267

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1 MR. KATZ: Tentatively, yes.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Tentatively. And can 

3 we go ahead and lock in this one on the 18th? 

4 I know no one finds that to be particularly 

5 palatable.

6 MEMBER GRIFFON: Wanda, do you 

7 think, if we did the 18th at the meeting, can 

8 it be arranged that we do -- oh, no, that 

9 won't work for you anyway.

10 CHAIR MUNN: What?

11 MEMBER GRIFFON: I was just 

12 thinking, if I can do it, I would have to 

13 travel the morning of the 18th, and I am not 

14 sure what my options are to get up there 

15 early.

16 MR. KATZ: So you are saying maybe 

17 a half-day?

18 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes, that is what 

19 I was thinking, like a noon-time start, and 

20 then we get everything done a little late, but 

21 you know --
268

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1 MS. HOWELL: If we could do this 

2 in a half-day, then we could do it the morning 

3 of the 13th.

4 MS. ADAMS: You could do two half5 days.

6 MR. KATZ: We could. The whole 

7 prospect is seeming brutal to me, considering 

8 the Board meeting, especially for you folks.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Well, rather than 

10 waffle, let's go ahead and say that we will 

11 meet in Niagara Falls on the 18th. We will 

12 attempt to start at noon. Will noon be 

13 adequate?

14 MEMBER GRIFFON: I can't answer 

15 that, but I think so.

16 MR. KATZ: There are some good 

17 flights.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Or if we find that 

19 flights are impossible, then we can always 

20 push it back to one.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: That makes more 
269

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 sense.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Does it?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Afternoon start.

4 MR. KATZ: That means they have to 

5 come in the night before.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We may have to get 

7 there the night before for Niagara Falls. I 

8 was going to drive to Niagara Falls and go to 

9 my in-laws. Instead of leaving on Tuesdays, 

10 then I would be leaving on Monday. I would 

11 lose the entire week before the Board meeting, 

12 or the entire week of the Board meeting.

13 MS. HOWELL: If we thought it was 

14 going to be a half-day, because the week 

15 before it would still only be three days of 

16 meeting, which it already is now, if you are 

17 assuming that the TBD-6000 meeting is on the 

18 12th. So to me, it is like not necessarily--

19 MR. KATZ: What about -- Wanda, do 

20 you have to be -- what about if you do it by 

21 phone, Procedures? You can't do that?
270

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1 CHAIR MUNN: My personal feeling 

2 is nothing is more difficult than trying to 

3 deal with it. We did very little with the 

4 database this time, and this makes the third 

5 and --

6 MR. KATZ: Okay, that's fine. 

7 That's fine. I was just looking at the end of 

8 the last week of April, which would work.

9 MEMBER GRIFFON: I hate to tell 

10 you this, Wanda, but what about -- you know, 

11 we are killing ourselves here with this 

12 schedule.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And I don't know 

14 what can get accomplished in six weeks, and 

15 May 12th is six weeks out. 

16 MEMBER GRIFFON: Yes. Then why 

17 don't we push it into probably June?

18 MR. KATZ: Well, what about the 

19 last week in May? Was that a no go for some 

20 reason?

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is for me. I 
271

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1 wouldn't be available.

2 MR. KATZ: The last week in May is 

3 no good? Okay. 

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: And the 18th is 

5 going to be problematic.

6 MR. KATZ: Okay. Then let's 

7 scratch that. Looks like we are into June. 

8 What about that first week in June? The first 

9 week in June looks fine from my calendar.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe I am on 

11 vacation Thursday and Friday of that week.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay. So there is 

13 Monday, the 31st of May, Tuesday the 1st.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Monday the 31st is 

15 Memorial Day.

16 MR. KATZ: Oh, right, right. 

17 MEMBER GRIFFON: The 2nd is good 

18 for me, the best actually.

19 MR. KATZ: The 2nd? Yes, the 2nd 

20 would be probably best for anyone traveling, 

21 so they don't have to do this for Memorial 
272

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1 Day.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I am not available 

3 that week at all.

4 DR. ULSH: I don't know if I am.

5 MR. KATZ: Okay, and Paul is not. 

6 The second week of June? June 8th?

7 MEMBER GRIFFON: Eighth or ninth 

8 or 10th are okay with me.

9 MR. KATZ: Good for me.

10 DR. ULSH: I am going to have to 

11 get back to you. I know I am going on 

12 vacation in June. I just don't remember the 

13 date.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I will cover 

15 it if I need to.

16 MR. KATZ: Okay. June 8th is good 

17 for you, Stu?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

19 MR. KATZ: June 8 okay with you, 

20 Wanda? Steve? Okay. June 8th, and I will 

21 send an email to Dick.
273

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 MEMBER GRIFFON: Well, that was 

2 the longest agenda item.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Not really.

4 MR. KATZ: It would have been even 

5 longer if we had done this by email.

6 CHAIR MUNN: All right, June 8th, 

7 Procedures in Cincinnati, and the great 

8 letdown after the Niagara Falls meeting. All 

9 of these outstanding items can magically be 

10 addressed. 

11 Is there anything else for the 

12 good of the order? If not, thank you all very 

13 much for hanging in there with us. We will 

14 look forward to hearing your dulcet tones or 

15 seeing your smiling face on Tuesday, June the 

16 8th at 9:30.

17 This meeting is adjourned.

18 MR. KATZ: Thanks, everyone on the 

19 line. Take care.

20 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

21 went off the record at 3:49 p.m.)
274

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