NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 1

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES 

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION 

+ + + + + 

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

62nd MEETING 

+ + + + + 

TUESDAY, MAY 12, 2009 

+ + + + + 

 The meeting convened at 9:00 a.m. 

in the Holiday Inn Amarillo Hotel, 1191 I-40 

East, Amarillo, Texas, Paul L. Ziemer, 

Chairman, presiding. 

PRESENT: 

PAUL L. ZIEMER, PhD, Chairman 

JOSIE M. BEACH, Member 

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member (via telephone) 

MARK GRIFFON, Member 

JAMES E. LOCKEY, MD, MS, Member 

JAMES MALCOLM MELIUS, MD, DRPH, Member 

WANDA I. MUNN, Member 

ROBERT W. PRESLEY, Member 

JOHN W. POSTON, SR., MS, PhD, Member 

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, PhD, Member 

PHILLIP M. SCHOFIELD, Member 

THEODORE M. KATZ, MPA, Acting Designated 

Federal Official 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 1a

SIGNED-IN AUDIENCE PARTICIPANTS: 

ADAMS, NANCY, NIOSH 

AL-NABULSI, ESAF, DOE 

ANGEL, RAUL, PANTEX 

BAKER, RITA, PANTEX 

BRADFORD, SHANNON, NIOSH 

BRITTEN, BRENDA, PANTEX 

BROWN, GARY, PANTEX 

BROWN, JERI, PANTEX 

COVEY, CATHRYN 

COVEY, R.A., NIOSH 

DAVIS, BENNIE, PANTEX 

DURHAM, DENISE, PANTEX 

FITZGERALD, JOSEPH, SC&A 

GILMORE, KAREN, PFW 

HOWELL, EMILY, HHS 

JOY, EARL, PANTEX 

KENNEDY, GARY, PANTEX 

KOTSCH, JEFF, DOL 

LEWIS, MARK, ATL INTL 

LORD, DAN, IMAGE RAD 

MAKHIJANI, ARJUN, SC&A 

MATHIASMEIER, SUE, PANTEX 

MAURO, JOHN, SC&A 

MCFEE, MATT, ORAU TEAM 

McGOLERICK, ROBERT, HHS 

MENDOZA, MANUEL, PANTEX 

MERIWETHER, KEN, PANTEX 

NICHOLS, DAISY, PANTEX 

PIERSON, JR., M.L., PANTEX 

POMPA, DAVID, PANTEX 

PRESLEY, LOUISE S. 

RAY, ALAN, PANTEX 

RAY, SARAH 

RENTERIO, J.M. FRANK, PANTEX 

RITTER, ERIN, PANTEX 

ROLFES, MARK, NIOSH 

RUTHERFORD, LAVON, NIOSH 

SACHSE, BILLY JOE, PANTEX

SAXBY, BILL 

SESTADA, DANIEL, PANTEX 

SKINLEY, NORA, THORNBERRY 

SNYDER, DEBBIE, PANTEX 

TEICHMANN, PAUL 

THOMPSON, JUDY, PANTEX 

TOMES, J.W., PANTEX 

TURNER, EDDIE W.
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 1b

TURNER, JOE, PANTEX 

WEAVER, OMAR, PANTEX 

WHITAKER, CAROLYN, PANTEX 

WILEY, FLOYD, PANTEX 

WOODWARD, NANCY, PANTEX 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 2

TABLE OF CONTENTS 

Agenda Item Page

Welcome..................................... 3 

NIOSH Program Update........................ 7 

DOL Program Update......................... 39 

DOE Update................................. 58 

IT Security Update......................... 92 

Board Security Plan....................... 109 

Standard Oil Development Co. of 

New Jersey SEC Petition (83.13)........... 167 

Blockson Chemical SEC Petition: 

radon Exposure............................ 199 

Santa Susana SEC Petitioner (83.13): 

Rev. Evaluation Report/WG Update.......... 256 

Public Comment

 Mr. Bill Sachse ..................... 304 

 Ms. Carolyn Whitaker ................ 309 

 Ms. Daisy Michaels .................. 311 

 Ms. Brenda Britten .................. 314 

 Ms. Sarah Ray ....................... 325 

 Mr. Gary Kennedy .................... 334 

 Mr. David Pompa ..................... 342 

 Mr. Daniel Sapeda ................... 344 

 Mr. Don Ray ......................... 347 

 Mr. Floyd Wiley ..................... 350 

 Ms. Sue Mathiasmeier ................ 362 

 Mr. Gary Brown ...................... 378 

 Ms. Rita Baker ...................... 380 

 Ms. Bonnie Klea ..................... 381 

 Ms. Jerri Brown ..................... 383 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 2a

 Ms. Helen McGill .................... 386 

 Mr. Manuel Mendoza .................. 396 

Adjourn 
2 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

(9:17 a.m.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, good 

morning everyone. I am going to officially 

call the meeting to order. This is the 

meeting of the Advisory Board on Radiation and 

Worker Health. We welcome you all. I know 

many had a difficult time getting here. I did 

myself. In fact, I didn't even notice whether 

or not the stars at night are big and bright 

in Texas. 

 MS. MUNN: They are. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: They are. But 

nonetheless, we are all glad to be here. We 

have a number of items on the back table that 

you can avail yourself of, if you haven't 

already. Copies of today's agenda, or this 

week's agenda, as well as other documents that 

will be discussed by the Board this week. 

 Also, in the foyer there is a 

registration form or booklet. If you have not 

already done so, please register your 
3 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

attendance with us in that registration 

booklet. 

 Also later today, actually this 

evening, we have a public comment period 

scheduled. And if you would like to make 

public comment, we ask that you please sign up 

on the sign-up sheet that is in the foyer as 

well. 

 Now we will have our Designated 

Federal Official, Ted Katz, make a few 

remarks. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, welcome everybody; 

the public, Board Members, the public, the 

public on the phone as well. I hope this 

sound system is working for the folks on the 

phone. And welcome from-- we now have a 

Senate--confirmed Secretary Sebelius. 

 VOICE FROM TELEPHONE: Hello. 

 MR. KATZ: Hello? Can you hear us 

on the phone? 

 VOICE FROM TELEPHONE: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, thank you. And a 
4 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

welcome from Dr. Christine Branche, the Acting 

Director of NIOSH. And I am Ted Katz. I am 

the Acting Designated Federal Official for the 

Advisory Board. 

 Just a couple of points to make, 

practical points for folks on the phone. If 

you would please, all of you on the phone, 

mute your phones so that we don't have the 

sound from your phone coming in through this 

sound system. And if you don't have a mute 

button, please use the *6. *6 will work just 

like a mute button for you. 

 And also, if you need to go away 

for some time, please don't put your phone on 

hold. Just disconnect and call back in 

because your hold will interfere with the 

meeting as well. 

 Much thanks and back to you, Dr. 

Ziemer. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. And 

the record will show that all of the Board 

Members are present with us this morning. 
5 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Thank you very much for all making the effort 

to be here. 

 Let me make an additional comment 

on the agenda. We will stick to the agenda 

pretty much as it is given. There are several 

items which I consider time certain, in the 

sense that there may be people on the 

telephone lines that will want to participate 

in the meeting. In particular, those items 

are the Standard Oil Development Company 

petition, which is scheduled for 2:00; the 

Blockson at 3:00, Blockson Chemical SEC 

petition; and the Santa Susana SEC Petition at 

4:00. So we will try to be as close to those 

schedules as possible, in order to fairly 

accommodate the petitioners who may be on the 

phone lines. 

 Otherwise, we will move along 

sometimes perhaps ahead of schedule, sometimes 

perhaps a little behind. If we do have to 

alter the agenda due to getting ahead, we 

sometimes move other flexible items around. 
6 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

But the time certain ones, we will try to keep 

them as they are. 

 With that, let us begin with the 

NIOSH program update. We are pleased that 

Larry Elliott is with us at this time to make 

that presentation. Welcome, Larry. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Thank you, Dr. 

Ziemer. Good morning Board Members and 

members of the public. It is a pleasure to be 

here in Texas and looking forward to a good 

meeting. 

 As we have tried to start this 

program report in the recent series of 

meetings with some informational notes for the 

Board and for the public, I am very pleased to 

announce that NIOSH and the CDC Procurement 

Office has Awarded a new technical support 

contract for our dose reconstruction SEC 

petition processing effort, finally. This has 

been a two year effort to try to get a new 

contract awarded and we are pleased that of 

the proposers that bid against the scope of 
7 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

work, we know that ORAU and its teaming 

partners have again successfully competed for 

that and have been awarded this contract to 

start May first. 

 So the services that they are to 

provide under this contract are database 

management, data collection-related claims and 

petitions, dose reconstruction research, 

claimant interviews, dose evaluation 

estimation and reporting, and technical 

program management support. The contract is 

designed as a one-year contract with a fouryear set of options and approximately thirty 

million dollars has been allocated for the 

first year. 

 So we are very excited to see this 

contract awarded so that we can get back up to 

the capacity that we had once enjoyed in 2006. 

 Additionally, for the Board's 

information and as well for the public, I 

would like to give an update on the Ruttenberg 

Data Analysis. We received the signed 
8 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

paperwork in order to transfer the data from 

the University of Colorado and Colorado State 

Department of Health to NIOSH and immediately 

scheduled a trip to Denver to meet with Ms. 

Ruttenberg and review the data holdings and to 

take possession of the full dataset. 

 We have been working on a thorough 

evaluation of an analysis of the data. And we 

began that in mid-February. We anticipated it 

would take two months to complete this 

analysis. And we are close to finishing that 

up. We will be providing a report of the 

evaluation and the analysis and the 

conclusions that we have drawn from this were 

to the Board and we will post that report on 

the website for public benefit. So, we are 

looking forward to finishing that piece of 

work up very shortly. 

 Also, I wanted the Board and the 

public to realize that the Department of Labor 

has formally asked NIOSH to perform some dose 

reconstructions for RECA Title 5 claims. 
9 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

These are claims that are being processed 

under Part E EEOICPA for RECA Title 5 

claimants that weren't successful under RECA. 

And so in order to process these RECA claims 

for toxic chemical exposures, DOL has asked 

NIOSH to perform a dose reconstruction for 

radiation exposure to the uranium miners and 

ore transporters. 

 So we currently have about 82 of 

these claims and we have developed a 

methodology and are in the final review, 

technical peer review of that methodology and 

hope to implement those dose reconstructions 

for those RECA claims very shortly. 

 So with that, those are the three 

news items I wanted to share with you. And we 

will get started into the regular presentation 

of the program status report. 

 As of April 30th of this year, 

29,370 cases have been referred to NIOSH for 

dose reconstructions. Eighty-two percent of 

those or 24,050 have been returned to the 
10 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Department of Labor. And if we look at how 

those were returned, we see that 20,895 were 

returned to DOL with a dose reconstruction 

report to support a compensation decision; 881 

of those cases were pulled from NIOSH by the 

Department of Labor for reasons of 

ineligibility; there are currently 2,274 that 

have been pulled from dose reconstruction 

because they were felt to be eligible for an 

SEC class that has been awarded. 

 So, we have finished 82 percent of 

the claims that have been sent to NIOSH. This 

leaves 16 percent at NIOSH or 4,799; and we 

have another two percent of cases, 521 that 

have been administratively closed in the dose 

reconstruction process. And as you know, this 

means that NIOSH has completed its work in 

providing a draft dose reconstruction report 

to the claimant and we are awaiting the 

claimant's response to indicate that they have 

no further information by signing an OCAS-1 

form. 
11 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 This pie chart shows the current 

case status of the 29,370 claims that have 

been sent to NIOSH. And you can see in the -- 

I'm sorry don't have a pointer. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Larry, I am going 

to interrupt you just a moment. We just got 

word that we have a phone problem. Okay? And 

we are going to temporarily come to a 

screeching halt and see if we can get that 

corrected quickly. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. 

(Whereupon, the foregoing meeting went off the 

record at 9:28 a.m. and resumed at 

9:28 a.m.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Apparently, we 

are back in operation. So, Mr. Elliott, you 

can continue. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. We are looking 

at a pie chart here which shows the current 

case status for the 29,370 claims that have 

been sent to NIOSH and it shows, again, the 71 

percent that were completed with a dose 
12 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

reconstruction and those are in the blue 

portion of the chart. Thank you. 

 The only active claims that would 

be shown in this chart would be those that are 

in yellow and green here, those that are 

active and pended. There are 1,105 of those 

that are pended and I will speak more in 

detail about those pended in the next slide. 

Again, the numbers that I have already spoken 

about on admin closed and SEC pulled are also 

shown. 

 Of the 1,105 claims that are 

currently pended at NIOSH, we see that in the 

top six categories, which are represented 

here, there are actually 1,073 claims listed 

in these categories. I need to note for you 

that you can't add these up because some 

claims are pended for multiple reasons or more 

than one reason, so except for the Department 

of Labor issues around employer missing and 

cancer information missing. And you will 

notice that these numbers that are related to 
13 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

DOL issues have decreased dramatically. We 

have been working very hard with the 

Department of Labor identifying claims and 

pended reasons that relate to DOL eligibility 

issues. So those numbers have been decreased 

dramatically. 

 Of the 20,895 dose reconstructions 

that have been returned to the Department of 

Labor, we believe that there have been 6,701 

or 32 percent that have resulted in a 

Probability of Causation of greater than 50 

percent. That leaves 68 percent or 14,194 

cases ahead of Probability of Causation of 

less than 50 percent were found to be noncompensable. 

 If we look at the distribution of 

Probability of Causation as shown in this bar 

chart, this is a typical chart that we show in 

every program status report, as you know, we 

are seeing consistent trends. This has not 

changed over time other than the numbers have 

increased. 
14 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Of the 4,799 cases that are active 

at NIOSH for dose reconstruction, 1,864 of 

those are currently in the process of being 

dose reconstructed; 576 initial draft dose 

reconstruction reports reside with claimants 

right now, awaiting their return of the OCAS-1 

form indicating they have no further 

information to provide; 2,359 cases are in 

development prior to dose reconstruction. And 

we would note, as we are trying to track very 

closely the oldest cases in this active case 

load, there are 2,805 or 58 percent that are 

older than a year in our hands. 

 Looking at how we are working the 

oldest cases, we show the first 10,000 claims 

that were received at NIOSH in this slide. 

And of those, you can see that 7,602 have been 

returned to the Department of Labor, 173 have 

been administratively closed in dose 

reconstruction. They can be reopened at any 

point in time once we receive the OCAS-1 form 

or we receive additional information that 
15 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

would have to be factored into the dose 

reconstruction. Four hundred and ten cases 

out of the first 10,000 have been pulled by 

the Department of Labor for eligibility 

issues. And then 893 cases have been pulled 

out of the first 10,000 for Special Exposure 

Cohort class eligibility. We have six dose 

reconstruction reports in the hands of 

claimants right now. We are waiting for them 

to return the OCAS-1 form. If they don't, of 

course, they would convert to admin closed or 

if they do return it, they will show up in the 

final dose reconstruction reports to DOL. 

 The two items noted in red, DOL 

returned cases, these are cases the Department 

of Labor has returned to us for re-work out of 

the first 5,000 and these re-works are 

primarily driven by our program evaluation 

reviews but there are some that are there 

because we need to rework the claim for 

medical benefits. It was paid out under SEC 

but there are still medical benefits issues 
16 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that are sorted out with the dose 

reconstruction. Or there is a DOL eligibility 

issue that we identified and resolved and was 

back in our hands for rework. So less than, 

about one percent of the first 10,000 are 

still active claims without having had an 

initial dose reconstruction. That is the 110 

that you see at the bottom. 

 Of those 110 that are awaiting dose 

reconstruction, we think it is important to 

note that 56 distinct sites are represented in 

that group. The 53 that are in pending 

status, I kind of tried to break out some 

details here for the Board, four are there 

because of cancer, claimant, survivor, or 

employment information is missing or invalid; 

there are 24 that are mass pends because of 

SEC designation issues; 18 are mass pended 

because of technical basis document issues, 

site profile modification issues that are 

underway; three are awaiting information that 

was provided after the dose reconstruction was 
17 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

initially done and we are working it again; 

two are there because of SEC petitioner 

issues; and two are awaiting consideration for 

an SEC. 

 There are 57 that are in active 

status that are not pended. And there is a 

couple of things to say about that 57 that are 

inactive. I didn't break out a lot of detail 

but six of these 57 have been returned to us 

for re-work because they were in an SEC class 

but medical benefits were being judged and 

they needed a dose reconstruction for that; 

four of them are fit into an SEC class but did 

not have 250 days or did not have presumptive 

cancer and so we are reconstructing the dose 

for those; and three were recently unpended 

and placed in active status based on the 

lymphoma PER (Program Evaluation Review), once 

it was complete. 

 If we look at the first 5,000, the 

very oldest claims in the 10,000, 28 of the 

active cases are below 5,000; 24 distinct 
18 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

sites are represented across those 28; 15 are 

in pended status for these various reasons 

that are shown; and 13 are in an active status 

going through dose reconstruction. And you 

can see the breakout: five of those are 

awaiting DR for medical benefits; six are nonSEC eligibles and awaiting DR; and two had 

employment date revisions by the Department of 

Labor. 

 Our trend chart to show our 

production experience over the course of time, 

we have modified this a little bit to get rid 

of the quarters issue, the mixed up -- so 

these are fiscal years. The first quarter 

starts the fiscal year, as you know, and you 

can see that in the green line, those are the 

cases that we had received from the Department 

of Labor. And the yellow line -- or excuse 

me. The blue line are the Department of Labor 

receipts and the green line is the draft 

reports to claimants. And then once we hear 

from the claimant they have no other 
19 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

information, the red line represents those 

reports that have been sent to the Department 

of Labor. 

 The trend here, as you have seen 

during the past few months is that we are 

consistently receiving about 200 a month from 

Department of Labor, 2400 a year. We are 

working off the backlog again. We are above, 

our production lines are above the receipt 

line. And with the new contract award, we are 

hoping that we will be able to see a 

production capacity in the 6,000 range per 

year. 

 If we look at this bar chart, we 

are told how well we are doing within the 

incremental 1,000 cases breakout. And you can 

see that we are showing in blue the cases that 

are completed; in red those that have been 

pulled from our caseload by DOL; in mustard 

the cases that are active for each of those 

1,000 increments; in green are the SEC cases 

that have been taken away from dose 
20 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

reconstruction; and in yellow, the cases that 

are administratively closed, which could be 

opened at any time, if there are additional 

information or if an OCAS-1 comes forward; and 

then the pended cases are shown in the gray. 

 This chart shows the number of 

reworks that NIOSH has been challenged with. 

We received a total of 9,135 reworks. We have 

returned to the Department of Labor 6,501. 

And so in our active caseload right now of 

those 4,000 plus, 2634 cases are still at 

NIOSH, which are rework cases. 

 We have revamped our presentation 

chart on our time to complete a dose 

reconstruction report and it is shown in this 

bar graph by fiscal year. And the yellow 

indicates those claims in that fiscal year 

that it took more than a year to complete. 

And you can see a downward trend. The green 

bar shows those claims in that fiscal year 

which took 60 days or less to complete a DR. 

And then the purple shows those claims in that 
21 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

fiscal year which were completed between 61 

and 180 days. 

 To report on our experience in 

requesting information from the Department of 

Energy to support our dose reconstruction 

efforts, we currently show that there are 533 

outstanding requests placed at DOE facilities 

for dose information. And of those, 160 that 

we are tracking have gone beyond 60 days. We 

monitor these on a 30-day period. I can tell 

you that these numbers change. This is a 

snapshot in time. And of the 160 that are 

over 60 days awaiting, there are 81 that are 

situated in the hands of the Oak Ridge 

Operations Office. That is usually our Oak 

Ridge Operations Office supports K-25, Y-12, 

X-10, Paducah, Portsmouth Gaseous Diffusion 

Plant and Mallinckrodt Works. And so a good 

number of sites and a lot of claims that get 

requested through that operations office. But 

we are monitoring that closely. 

 As of April 30th this year, there 
22 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

have been 42 SEC classes which have been added 

since the rule was passed in May of 2005; 22 

of those classes or 52 percent have been 

processed through the 83.13 process; and 20 or 

48 percent of the classes that have been added 

have been so worked by an 83.14 process. 

 This represents classes of workers 

from 33 sites, these 42 classes. It also 

represents 2,274 potential cases that have 

been dealt with through a class addition. 

 Now, with regard to site-specific 

information, given that we are here in 

Amarillo, we wanted to present where we are at 

with regard to the Pantex Plant cases that 

have been referred to NIOSH. And you will see 

here that we have completed 74 percent of the 

397 that we have received for DOL. That 74 

percent is 292 claims complete, of which there 

have been 48 or 16 percent compensation rate 

for these claims, 244 or 84 percent had a PoC 

of less than 50 percent. 

 Eighteen of the claims have been 
23 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

pulled by the Department of Labor. That 

represented Pantex employment. Eighty-seven 

claims remain active at NIOSH for dose 

reconstruction. 

 If we look at distribution of PoC 

for Pantex claims, it is fairly flat through 

these PoC categories, showing greater than 50 

percent on the right-hand side of the graph 

and then by ten percent increments up to that 

point in the for bars or five bars to the left 

of the graph. 

 Just a couple of notes on -- I 

don't know that I would call these 

accomplishments, or at least the first one I 

don't know I would say is an accomplishment, 

but is progress that we think and feel that is 

progress based upon our work at NIOSH. DOE 

had originally estimated when this program 

started that fewer than five percent of the 

nuclear weapons workers with cancer would have 

a PoC of greater than 50 percent. That 

estimate was based upon the National Cancer 
24 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Institute's estimates that the incidence of 

cancer in the general population of the United 

States was over 40 percent; that some types of 

cancer have been found not to be significantly 

radiogenic and that epidemiologic studies of 

cancer incidents were not support a greater 

compensation rate than that. 

 The numbers of dose reconstructed 

cases that we have returned to DOL with a 

Probability of Causation of greater than 50 

percent is 32 percent. So, we feel that we 

have realized this higher rate of compensation 

through our work because DOL has to use the 99 

percent credibility limit that the law 

specifies that is very claimant favorable and 

that the dose reconstruction methods that 

NIOSH is using bring the best science. But 

when we have to draw an assumption, we draw 

the most claimant favorable assumption that is 

reasonable and plausible. 

 NIOSH has also prepared a report, 

as you know, to the Senate Appropriations 
25 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Committee that recommends adding basal cell 

carcinoma to the list of presumptive cancers. 

We produced that report in 2006, and the 

report promised an update once the UNSCEAR 

report was available. That came out earlier 

this year and so we have reviewed and revised 

our report to Congress based upon the 

information that was given in the UNSCEAR 

review. And currently that revised report is 

undergoing review in HHS and will be 

transmitted to Congress we hope very soon. 

 If there are questions, I would be 

happy to answer them. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you very 

much Larry for that report. 

 Just for clarification, you had 

mentioned the Part E claims now that you are 

handling and just for clarity, I believe I am 

correct in saying that this Board has no 

direct responsibility in the involvement with 

those claims. Is that not correct? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: That is my 
26 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

understanding. That we don't plan to present 

to the Board our methodology. That these 

claims are not Part B claims. They are Part E 

Title 5 RECA claims. 

 The dose reconstruction that we are 

providing is a very simple, straight-forward 

modeling approach, based on the mine 

information that we have available to us. It 

will provide a letter to DOL and to the 

claimant, specifying what dose was 

reconstructed for that RECA exposure and what 

dose could not be reconstructed, and provide 

an IREP spreadsheet for the Department of 

Labor to use in their determinations. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Melius. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, I have several 

questions here. I will try to organize them. 

 First of all, thank you, Larry, for 

providing more detailed information on some of 

these older cases. I appreciate it. And I am 

trying to make some of these numbers add up 

and understand them. But first of all, on 
27 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

your table, the 14th slide, days required for 

completion of initial draft DR report. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. 

 DR. MELIUS: I am just a little 

confused by the labeling there. Is there a 

column missing or is a column mislabeled? You 

have 60 days or less, 61 to 180 and more than 

one year. I am trying to figure out what 

happened to 180 to 365. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Obviously, we left it 

out. We didn't want to talk about it. 

 (Laughter.) 

 DR. MELIUS: I just didn't know if 

it somehow -- 

 MR. ELLIOTT: We have been 

targeting more than a year. We have been 

looking at one year -- 

 DR. MELIUS: Oh, okay. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: -- as our trigger 

point. You know, we are trying to figure out 

what it is going to take for us to move claims 

out the door in less than 180 days and in less 
28 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

than a year. And so we certainly could add 

that if it has information to it. 

 But I would say to you that 180 to 

365 is included in the yellow bar. No, I 

can't say that. 

 DR. MELIUS: No, you can't say 

that. Please don't. You have got me -- 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Only more than one 

year is in the yellow bar. So we don't have 

it. 

 DR. MELIUS: You don't have it up 

there. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: We don't have 

information on this slide for you for 181 to 

364. 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: It is not there. I 

don't know why it is not there. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: If I could 

interrupt, I suppose it is the difference in 

the total of the three because it has got to 

total 100 percent. 
29 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 So for example, for 2008, you have 

got like 43 percent plus 27. That is 70 -- so 

you have got a -- I mean, we could figure it 

out. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: You could get at it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We hate to do all 

that work. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: I know. Well, we 

want to make you work a little bit. My 

apologies. We should have included that. 

 DR. MELIUS: No, there is no need 

to apologize. I just wanted to make sure it 

wasn't mislabeled or whatever. Because I was 

trying to understand that. 

 DR. MELIUS: Well, we appreciate 

the comment. We are working hard trying to 

improve our communication materials and this 

is certainly a good point for us to take home. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes. And then I am -- 

the tenth slide, which is summary of efforts 

to complete the first 10,000 cases. You have 

five awaiting dose reconstruction for medical 
30 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

benefits for non-SEC cancer. I don't quite 

understand that category. Thirteen are in 

active status. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, okay. So here 

is the issue. A claim is paid because the 

person had an SEC presumptive cancer and they 

fit into a class. But they have another 

cancer that is not an SEC cancer but they are 

getting medical treatment for it. 

 DR. MELIUS: Oh, okay. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: So DOL needs to have 

a dose reconstruction from us to determine 

whether or not they should pay those medical 

benefits. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, okay. That makes 

sense. 

 My other comment is your -- the 

number of -- the 32 percent of DRs greater -- 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. 

 DR. MELIUS: -- the Probability of 

Causation greater than 50 percent. I mean, I 

think this has sort of been a myth about the 
31 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

program. There was some initial estimates 

from DOE. And actually I used to hear Pete 

Turcic use the 10 or 15 percent or something 

like that as to what was expected. And so 

something was wrong with the program because 

it was higher than what they originally 

estimated. 

 And I think one of the problems 

with this is that nobody had ever looked at 

the entire exposure database at the Department 

of Energy. And clearly, even the 

epidemiologic studies only tended to look at 

places where there good records to support an 

epidemiological study and didn't look at a 

lot of the smaller sites and a lot of the 

sites that you are finding do not have very 

good exposure records. 

 And so I think in truth we don't 

know. Yes, there is some -- you would expect 

it to be higher than might be estimated based 

on the original estimate because of the 

methods that are used. But I think to use 
32 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

sort of an epidemiological argument there is 

facetious and we need to be careful with that. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Apparently, they 

had used that argument at the front end and I 

think you are just quoting it. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: I am not quoting it 

as a reason why 32 percent is what we are 

experiencing now. I am saying we understood 

that is what the estimate of the previous 

slide. 

 DR. MELIUS: Well, I believe that 

some members of your staff used that in some 

of the publications in the health physics 

journals. So, I think it has some currency 

within the program and I think you need to be 

careful with that. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, Jim Neton, 

perhaps has a comment on this. 

 DR. NETON: I might have a little 

clarification here. That 32 percent is 

virtually made up of the respiratory tract 

cancers that are almost 89 percent paid out of 
33 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

this program. That is primarily because of 

the missed dose associated with the bioassay 

monitoring program associated with working 

with actinides, where you just cannot make a 

determination as to what the dose of the lung 

was. 

 So, you will see if you go through 

this 32 percent, virtually most of the lung 

cancer cases in the program. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. 

 DR. MELIUS: But my response there 

is so. So what? 

 DR. NETON: Well, we don't know 

that that is really the dose that these people 

incurred. It is a plausible upper bound, 

based on the generosities of the program. 

 DR. MELIUS: But you also don't 

know it is a dose they didn't get. 

 DR. NETON: Right. 

 DR. MELIUS: Because you are unable 

to estimate it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: In fact, an epi 
34 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

program could not look at that, because they 

wouldn't have a dose value to use. 

 DR. MELIUS: Exactly. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Did you have an 

additional question? 

 DR. NETON: Not at the moment. I 

need to find another slide here, if anybody 

else does. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, Ms. Beach 

has a question. 

 MS. BEACH: Back on slide 13 of the 

reworked cases, you said there was 2,634 that 

are yet to be completed. Is there, are you 

tracking those from the oldest to the newest 

or how are those being completed? I am just 

curious because the charge doesn't really 

indicate. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, we like to see 

the first in be the first to go back out. But 

some of these reworks have multiple 

modifications that have to be attended to. 

 So in some cases, a rework will be 
35 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

returned very quickly and in other cases, it 

won't follow in the queue that it came in it. 

You know, it won't go out as quickly as we 

would like. 

 But yes, we are monitoring the 

progress on completing reworks. We are 

watching. We have an ability within our 

tracking system to understand how long a claim 

has been in our hands and what its issues are 

and how it is moving. 

 MS. BEACH: Well, I guess I would 

like to see maybe a column that says back 

from, maybe your heavier periods, how many are 

still left from that time frame, for 2007, -- 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. 

 MS. BEACH: -- if that is a 

possibility. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: We will consider 

looking at that, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: There is another 

question from Dr. Melius. 

 DR. MELIUS: I have two questions. 
36 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

One on the Department of Energy information 

request that you indicated you had 160 that 

were greater than 60 days. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. 

 DR. MELIUS: Are any of those 

greater than one year, those requests for DOE 

information? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: No. We have two that 

go greater than 180 days. 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay but -- 

 MR. ELLIOTT: But none that go more 

than a year. 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: And the two on 180 

days, we know exactly what is going on with 

those. 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay. And I take it 

among the first 10,000, I don't see listed 

here any cases where you are unable to get 

adequate information from DOE. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: No, that is not an 

issue for those. 
37 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 DR. MELIUS: I mean, you may find 

somewhere it doesn't exist, or -- 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Right. 

 DR. MELIUS: -- whatever. But 

okay, good. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: And some of those, 

many of those, are AWE facilities. So, I 

mean, it is not DOE that doesn't have the 

data. It is an AWE situation we can't find 

the data perhaps. 

 DR. MELIUS: I would also, this is 

a comment and I have said it before. You 

don't necessarily need to respond, Larry, but 

it seems to me at some point you need to 

consider just taking some of these first 

10,000, first 5,000, if you are unable to 

resolve it. It seems to me somebody applying 

for a compensation program shouldn't have to 

wait five or six years or more to get their 

case adjudicated. And at some point it just 

becomes ridiculous that people are pending 

this long in this type of program. 
38 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 And I know you may be limited by 

your regulations but maybe it is time to 

change the regulations in order to deal with 

this issue. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. 

Additional comments or questions? Apparently 

not. 

 Thank you again, Larry. 

 Next we will have the Department of 

Labor program update. And again, Jeff Kotsch 

is with us this morning. Welcome, Jeff. 

 MR. KOTSCH: Good morning. Just a 

little background. A lot of this is 

repetitious, unfortunately, other than some of 

the numbers changing, but the content. But 

for the people that haven't heard this 

presentation before, we will go through a 

little bit of a summary of the program or the 

background of the EEOICPA. 

 Part B became effective on July 31, 

2001, and as most of the numbers in the 

presentation are as of April 30th of 2009, 
39 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

66,023 cases are 97,633 claims have been 

filed. Just a note that the claim number is 

always higher because if the employee has 

passed away, there may be more than one 

survivor. So, like I said, the claim and 

claim number will always be higher than the 

number of cases. And 29,495 cases have been 

referred to NIOSH for dose reconstruction as 

of the date. 

 However, historically, we have 

always had an issue with the numbers 

corresponding. They had been getting closer. 

We have been working with Larry's people as 

part of a dose reconciliation project to look 

at cases that we believe to be either with us 

or with NIOSH or in transit kind of thing. 

And those numbers are actually closing. These 

numbers are relatively close concerning the 

history of the numbers we reported. So they 

are closing. That operation is continuing and 

we appreciate NIOSH's efforts in working with 

us to resolve some of these issues. And you 
40 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

also saw on Larry's slides that the number of 

the pended cases dropping radically as we get 

monthly reports, which are submitted to the 

district offices. And those cases are looked 

at and determined how to resolve those issues 

and how to respond to NIOSH with those things. 

 For Part E, that became effective 

on October 28, 2004. That was formerly the 

Part D program, which was administered by the 

Department of Energy. And 56,956 cases or 

80,032 claims have been filed and over 25,000 

cases were initially transferred from DOE. 

 Just as far as the overall 

compensation for the program, 4.8 billion 

dollars have been paid in total compensation; 

2.94 billion of that is for the Part B 

program; 1.56 billion for the Part E; and 316 

million in medical benefits. 

 The cases paid under the EEOICPA, 

there have been 51,135 payees in 37,932 Part B 

and E cases; 36,485 Part B payees in 23,909 

cases, which is about 53 percent of our total 
41 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

cases; and 14,650 Part E payees in 13,923 

cases. 

 Just a quick look again, for the 

people that have not seen this presentation 

before, at Part B. Part B includes radiation 

induced cancers, beryllium illness, basically 

chronic beryllium disease, beryllium 

sensitivity, the special exposure cohort, 

silicosis for the miners in Nevada and Alaska, 

supplement for the RECA uranium workers 

Radiation Exposure Compensation Act workers, 

the millers, the miners, millers, and ore 

transporters; and the old Part D, which is now 

the new Part E program. 

 As far as eligibility for Part B, 

it includes the DOE employees, the DOE 

contractors, subcontractors, the atomic 

weapons employers, the beryllium vendors and 

certain survivors of the deceased workers 

which are listed there, which are a little 

different than we will see in the Part E 

program and the RECA Section 5 radium workers. 
42 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Again, the miners, millers, and the ore 

transporters. 

 Presumptive coverage for workers 

with 22 specified cancers at the SEC sites, 

those are the covered cancers, the four 

legislated or the statutory sites, the three 

gaseous diffusion plants at Portsmouth, 

Paducah, K-25, plus Amchitka. And as of 

February 15, 2009, we are showing 39 SEC 

classes. 

 So the benefits paid out under Part 

B are $150,000 lump sum payment, medical 

benefits for covered conditions and the 

medical treatment and monitoring only for the 

beryllium sensitivity. 

 Now for Part E, it was created, 

again, in 2004 to replace the old Part D 

program. It is a federal entitlement program 

like Part B and results in lump-sum payments 

up to $250,000, usually on top of a Part B 

payment. If there is a Part B payment, it 

rolls over almost automatically into the Part 
43 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

E program, plus medical benefits for the 

accepted conditions. 

 Eligibility under Part E is again, 

under E it only covers the DOE contractors and 

subcontractors. It does not include the 

atomic weapons employers or the beryllium 

vendor employers. Certain survivors of 

deceased workers and here it is a more 

restricted population of survivors, due to the 

way the Act was amended. 

 Any occupational disease, any toxic 

exposure, including Part B disease. So there 

is, again, dual eligibility. Basically if you 

get Part B compensation, you pretty much 

automatically get Part E compensation. 

 Just a graphic of the final 

decisions under the Part B cases. We are 

showing again as of April 30th, 25,593 final 

decisions approved, 19,204 denied. The three 

bars to the right of the final decisions 

denied, 570 survivors not eligible; 13,336 

with Probability of Causation is less than 50 
44 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

percent; and 5,298 with medical information 

insufficient to support the claim. 

 This slide is the NIOSH referral 

case status. Again, showing 29,495 cases 

referred to NIOSH for dose reconstruction. 

And 23,852 were returned by NIOSH and 

currently at DOL; 20,516 of those have dose 

reconstructions and 3,336 came without dose 

reconstructions. Again, returned for various 

reasons, primarily probably a pull for the SEC 

class eligibility. 

 5,643 cases are currently at NIOSH. 

 We are showing 3,053 of those that are 

initial referrals to NIOSH and 2,560 that are 

reworks or returns to NIOSH. Again, cases 

primarily go to NIOSH in two groups as far as 

reworks, ones that either have new medical 

information, such as additional cancers or 

additional employment or ones that were 

returned for either PER activity, Program 

Evaluation Report activity by NIOSH or SEC. 

That would be it, I guess, primarily, the PER 
45 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

type things. 

 The new SEC-related cases we are 

showing 2,861 withdrawn from NIOSH for review; 

2545 with final decisions issued, of which 

2,467 have final approvals; 34 recommended but 

no final decisions; 75 cases are pending at 

DOL; and 207 cases are closed. So that is 89 

percent of the SEC-related cases have final 

decisions are ready as we work through the 

process of either initially getting them in or 

pulling them back from NIOSH and evaluating 

the criteria for acceptance into the SEC. 

 The NIOSH dose reconstruction case 

status, we are showing 20,516 cases at DOL 

with dose reconstructions; and 19,207 dose 

reconstructions with final decisions. That is 

about 66 percent; 6,476 with final approvals, 

those are with POCs greater than 50 percent, 

and 12,731 with final denials with PoCs less 

than 50 percent. 

 The numbers for the accepted Part B 

cancer cases, accepted dose reconstruction 
46 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

cases are 6,210; that is 8,844 payees or 

$921.6 million in compensation. 

 Accepted SEC cases are 9,418; 

15,150 payees in the amount of $1.392 billion 

in compensation. 

 Cases accepted based on SEC status 

and a PoC of 50 or greater is 266; 343 payees 

are in this group with $39.7 million in 

compensation. 

 And the totals. All accepted SEC 

and dose reconstructed cases, 15,894. It 

translates into 24,337 payees and $2.353 

billion in compensation. That is, again, as 

of April 30th. 

 Just this is the break down or the 

chart for the Part B cases received monthly by 

DOL. This is for basically our incoming 

caseload. 

 Most of those cases, most or many 

go on to NIOSH, as you see in this slide. 

These are Part B cases sent to NIOSH monthly. 

It includes both the initial referrals to 
47 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

NIOSH and the reworks and returns to NIOSH. 

So those numbers will or may or many not 

exceed the incoming number just because of the 

timing of the way the cases are moving. 

 But again, I guess that average is 

-- this is monthly. Right? Somewhere in the 

-- anyway, it guess it is, with the reworks on 

the initials, it is running in the upper 300s. 

 Just an overview of some of the 

SECs that petition site discussions that may 

be discussed at the meeting. Standard Oil 

Development Company of New Jersey. We have 

had one case, two claims. That is only a Part 

B issue. One case returned from NIOSH with a 

dose reconstruction, zero approvals. Blockson 

Chemical, 213 cases or 357 claims. Again, 

that is a Part B only situation; 117 cases 

returned from NIOSH with dose reconstruction; 

DOL has issues 132 Part B decisions; 54 Part B 

approvals in the amount of $8.2 million. 

 Area IV at the Santa Susana Field 

Laboratory in California we have seen 776 
48 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

cases or 985 claims; 191 have been returned 

from NIOSH with a dose reconstruction that DOL 

has issued; 204 part B decisions; 57 Part B 

approvals; 67 Part E approvals. That site is 

also a beryllium site. Total compensation and 

medical bill payment of $14.9 million. 

 And there is a Nevada Test Site 

number there, 5,975 cases or 8,544 claims, 

both Part B and E; 1,159 returned from NIOSH 

with dose reconstructions; DOL has issued 

2,133 final decisions in Part B for 879 Part B 

approvals, 889 Part E approvals, and payment 

of total compensation and medical bill 

payments of $201.1 million. 

 And then that is just the pie chart 

of the Part B cases filed and the breakdowns, 

percentages, 35 have gone to NIOSH, RECA is 11 

percent; the others, 38 percent are the 

silicosis and chronic beryllium disease, 

things like that. 

 And that is it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you very 
49 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

much, Jeff, for again summarizing those 

activities. 

 Jeff, could you tell us, I want to 

ask a question that relates to the Worker 

Outreach Program. Can you tell us, are there 

any sites where from Labor's point of view, 

significant additional worker outreach 

activities need to be done, particularly on 

any of the major sites? 

 I am trying to get a feel for 

whether, you have a claim or a rate of about 

400 a month that you are sending forward, does 

this just reflect the occurrence of new cases 

or does it reflect the worker outreach program 

where people are becoming aware of the program 

that perhaps were not before? And you may not 

be able to answer that but I am trying to get 

a feel for the extent to which we are 

confident that the folks out there know both 

of the existence of the program and how to get 

involved in it. 

 MR. KOTSCH: I think -- I don't 
50 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

know the exact answer, Paul. I think at all 

the major sites, people are aware of the 

programs. I know initially, for a long time, 

we had a question about the Hanford site. We 

just never saw the volume of applications from 

that site that we would have expected. Just 

because, I think, what, 60 percent of the 

people have worked at Hanford at some point in 

their career. So you would just have expected 

to see more from that site. We have seen, I 

think, an uptake, especially since the SEC was 

granted out there, more applications from 

there. But I don't know how those monthly 

numbers, I am sure we have those numbers I 

just don't have them with me, I don't know how 

they break down by say applications for 

initial sites by location at the major DOE 

sites. You know, if they are predominantly 

one side or another or just a fairly constant 

value. 

 I know our group is looking at, 

continuously looking at outreach activities 
51 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

and where we need to be as far as facilities. 

Whatever SEC classes come up, we are 

definitely out there with those, along with 

NIOSH. Or if it is a small site, sometimes we 

just contact the claimants by telephone, if 

there is not an actual meeting. 

 But I don't know that there is, 

Larry might be aware, but I don't know if 

there is any active; there is not a major 

outreach effort that I am aware of right now. 

But I could check on that but it is a good 

question as far as I don't know exactly how 

those incoming monthly ones, especially the 

initial ones, while the initial ones aren't 

being distributed as far as location goes. 

You know, if there is predominantly one site 

showing up now or not. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, it sort of 

revolves around whether or not the cases 

coming in reflect mainly newly discovered 

medical conditions. You know, 90 percent of 

the cases are ones where the cancer was just 
52 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

discovered. But I don't know how easily that 

is answered. I was just trying to get a feel 

for whether or not Labor felt that the job of 

worker outreach has been effective or are 

there major sort of locations where much more 

needs to be done. Perhaps that is almost more 

rhetorical today. It is something to think 

about. 

 MR. KOTSCH: Yes, but I think you 

are right. There obviously has to be some 

kind of baseline level for new cancers or 

obviously living workers. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. Dr. 

Melius. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, a couple of 

comments on that. One is that the DOE still 

runs the medical screening program at many of 

the sites and has been expanding that program, 

I know to Brookhaven recently last year, and I 

think to some other sites also. I can't 

remember offhand. And I think that tends to 

make people, another group aware of what is 
53 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

going on with the program. 

 Secondly, I know DOL and I am not 

up-to-date on it. I know DOL has worked with 

some other outside groups on doing some 

outreach on their own. But you have to 

realize a lot of this population is very hard 

to reach because they have retired and moved 

and left. And you know, it is not like they 

are all sitting in Hanford or Richland or 

wherever. Many of them have moved around the 

country and may not be aware of the program 

still or not think of it until they become 

ill. And then when you develop cancer, you 

usually have other things on your mind and 

don't necessarily think about it. 

 Third, I think we did find that the 

facility in Connecticut, the Pratt and Whitney 

facility there was one where there were very 

few cases filed proportional to the number of 

workers that were eligible that became 

eligible at the SEC. And I think I commented 

at the time about the need for some outreach 
54 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

there. I mean, that is an example of a 

facility that probably wasn't on anybody's 

radar screen, so-to-speak, in terms of having 

a population that might be eligible for the 

program. It is not in the part of the country 

where there are a lot of other sites and I 

suspect they weren't very aware of the 

program. And then suddenly when they become 

eligible, maybe the time to really do more 

outreach there both for DOL and for NIOSH. I 

mean, in that example, there was an active 

union that is still active and is still active 

at other facilities and that will affect 

sister facilities there are still active. 

 But I think overall the problem is 

that it is just a difficult population to 

reach out to. And frankly, there is a lot of 

people that, you know, they have friends who 

have been turned down, rejected by the program 

and say why should I bother to apply if I am 

not going to get compensated or if the program 

is so difficult or takes so long that it is 
55 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

not worth the effort. I think we have heard 

that at many of our public meetings. So, I 

think that is another factor that operates 

here. 

 MR. KOTSCH: Again, when an SEC 

class is implemented at a specific site, there 

is an effort made on outreach. But you are 

right, I know we put ads in different 

retirement, you know, news letters and 

sometimes you will even see them in the AARP 

and things like that just because it is very 

difficult to track some of these. You know, 

to get the word out, basically. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And I suppose 

there are certain sites and I think Oak Ridge 

would be an example, maybe Hanford, where 

there is a close-knit community that maintains 

some linkages even after retirement and that 

probably helps a lot. Other sites and 

particularly some of the ones such as the 

Pratt Whitney, perhaps, I don't know. I 

shouldn't pick on them, perhaps, where that 
56 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

kind of family feeling doesn't exist and 

perhaps the word doesn't get out quite as 

easily. 

 But nonetheless, you are having 

apparently a steady stream of cases coming in 

and I was more speculating as to what the 

nature of those were, in terms of how they are 

getting the word and whether it is simply the 

arrival or the appearance of new medical 

conditions versus finally learning about the 

program. 

 Okay, other questions or comments 

on the labor report? Apparently not. Again, 

thank you, Jeff. 

 MR. KOTSCH: Okay, thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We are a little 

ahead of schedule but I think we have time -- 

let me see. We are not scheduled for a break 

yet. Maybe will take a break anyway. Let's 

take a little break and then we will proceed. 

So, we will give you a few extra minutes but 

we will recess briefly. 
57 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(Whereupon, the foregoing meeting went off the 

record at 10:20 a.m. and resumed at 

10:50 a.m.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We are ready to 

continue. 

 The next item on our agenda this 

morning is an update from the Department of 

Energy. And Dr. Patricia Worthington is with 

us and we are pleased to have her present this 

update. 

 Dr. Worthington, we welcome you to 

the podium. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Good morning. It 

is always a pleasure to be here and to address 

the Board and to address the public. On 

behalf of Glenn Podonsky, we are pleased to be 

here. It certainly took a little bit longer 

to get to Amarillo than I had anticipated but 

we are here now, so we are pleased. 

 I wanted to give you an update 

today on where we are on several aspects of 

the program. One thing I wanted to mention in 
58 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the beginning is that I certainly compliment 

the people that worked very hard on this 

program. Gina Cano, the Director of the 

office that has responsibility for this is 

here, along with two members of her staff, 

Greg and Isaf. And they will be around to 

interact with you during the course of the 

week. 

 Since we had the meeting, I believe 

at Savannah River in February time frame, we 

had some significant things we were addressing 

on PII in the Department. They have certainly 

impacted this program and some of our other 

programs. We have for over a year now on this 

program focused on how do we best juggle the 

requirements for national security versus 

requirements for getting information on 

workers to NIOSH into the Department of Labor. 

 However, in terms of PII, I mean, that is 

certainly important because that is protection 

of vital information for the actual workers. 

And so while it has certainly caused some 
59 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

impact on this program, it was a time out that 

was meaningful in terms of making sure that we 

are always protecting that information. And 

it was a challenge. It caused some delays at 

some of the sites. We for the most part 

worked our way out of them. I think we have 

one major hurdle to overcome. But again, we 

want people to certainly understand that as we 

go about and do our work, that it is certainly 

very important to us that we are protecting 

the information of those workers. 

 The responsibilities for the DOE 

program certainly haven't changed since we 

have been coming before this group and I will 

just mention them today in case there are some 

new individuals are in the audience. And one 

is the individual information. We wanted to 

make sure that we get that information to DOL 

and to NIOSH as quickly as possible. 

 In terms of doing research and 

retrieving information, that certainly is a 

major part. As you know, DOE and its 
60 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

predecessor organization has been around for 

quite some time. And we have some very old 

systems associated with data and in some cases 

multiple systems operating. And in some 

cases, they certainly are manual. They are 

not electronic. So, it is always a challenge. 

We don't want to come back with a no, without 

doing the best job that we can but also being 

timely. 

 And we want to update our covered 

facilities. You will hear a little bit more 

about that in a few minutes. 

 Here are some activities, some 

numbers. We have been big on numbers today. 

Certainly, in terms of DOE, we want to 

increase our numbers all the time and be 

timely. Just some idea about what we do on a 

yearly basis. 

 In terms of employment 

verifications, about 7,000 per year; dose 

records for NIOSH, about 4,000; and the DAR is 

about 7,500 a year. And those numbers in some 
61 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

cases involved quite a bit of work in order to 

be able to produce the results. 

 We have a number of SEC's, nearly 

ten that are ongoing. Some of them much more 

mature or a longer time frame than others but 

here are examples of the ones that we are 

working on. And certainly there is a lot of 

energy associated with it but we are happy to 

be able to provide this information. 

 A little bit about Hanford. I 

think we have heard some from Hanford this 

morning about the things going on there. 

Certainly as all the SECs are, this has been 

an important one. Let's focus on the things 

that we have done but also we are certainly 

very clear on the work that remains. That 83 

boxes and that can be misleading. A lot of 

information can be made available in those 

boxes. In this case, almost 200,000 pages 

were reviewed by NIOSH. And from those boxes, 

nearly 2,000 documents were identified, 

cleared and indexed by DOE staff. And that is 
62 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

certainly important that we want to make 

available a wide range of information that 

NIOSH can screen and look through and then 

select the information that would be most 

appropriate for their work. 

 Again, things that are in process 

at Hanford, 17 additional boxes that we are 

working through. We try to communicate in a 

number of ways in hosting visits and 

conferences in whatever kind of communication 

might be necessary in order for us to carry 

out this work. 

 You have heard today about things 

that are outstanding for DOE. So those things 

are always in front of us, things that remain 

to be done. An additional 25 boxes, almost 

all classified, that certainly is a challenge 

for us but we have a firm commitment from 

Glenn's organization in terms of the Office of 

Classification, making people available to 

actually review these documents. Last week, 

Gina, myself and her staff, we attended the 
63 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

classification directors. I am not sure if 

that is the correct title but they have a 

conference on an annual basis. They come 

together and talk about their challenges and 

their processes. We actually went there and 

had a plea to that group about our work, 

making them familiar with this program and 

thanking many of them for the classification 

things that they have done and also letting 

them know that we anticipate more in the 

future and working with them on ways to staff 

up and to be able to help us even more so. 

 So, it takes a lot of organizations 

to make this work, especially on the DOE side 

and we continue to go to them. And we actually 

are getting much more support from them and so 

we appreciate that. 

 A little bit about the Savannah 

River one. That one is certainly going on. 

We have, as we do at all of the DOE sites, a 

very active and engaged, and enthusiastic 

Department of Energy Organization that is 
64 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

there at the site and trying to work with us. 

I just left the slide on Hanford. Again, I 

can't say enough about the people there that 

work with us. 

 We have hosted 11 NIOSH site visits 

and I want to focus on the numbers for a 

moment because in this business and the 

complexity of the DOE operations and sort of 

the data and the quality of the data and the 

old things that are going on and sort of the 

changes of missions at the site, one visit or 

two visits just won't handle it. So in some 

cases, in order to get the work done, you need 

to get out there multiple times to be able to 

do it and we want to work with NIOSH and 

others to facilitate that. And so again, that 

is why you see those numbers. Again, it is 

making sure that there is a good understanding 

and that people at the site know what they are 

looking for and that there is a lot of 

discussion and feedback on that. 

 We hosted one visit of the Advisory 
65 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Board there. There are many players with 

different roles and all are very important, 

very critical roles to be able to complete 

this mission. And so we want to get everybody 

to the places and the information they need to 

get. 

 We retrieved 152 boxes, an 

additional 1700 individual documents for 

review. Again, a lot of information out there 

and we are trying to find ways to get to that. 

 On Savannah River, did I go the 

right way? On Savannah River, as of April the 

27th, this is sort of the stats for that. 

Again, you see some classified documents that 

are listed there and that certainly involves 

not only just our organization but the 

interface with the classifiers in the field to 

make it happen. We completed the information 

security reviews on 99 percent of the 

documents identified to date. So we are 

continuing to work for 100 percent. 

 In terms of Pantex, we have hosted 
66 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

four visits to review documents and conduct 

interviews. We have some things planned this 

week to certainly continue to work through 

things here. Over 400 record boxes have been 

reviewed by the NIOSH team. We think that is 

significant. And in March, the DOE hosted 

members of the Advisory Board and their 

contractors for a tour of Pantex. It is good 

to get data, to look at data, to talk to 

people. But sometimes you get a better feel 

of what to talk about and what it means if you 

can be on the ground a little bit for tours. 

So whenever that is needed, we want to 

facilitate that and make it happen. 

 Pantex is in the process of 

obtaining job history information for the 

1990s for approximately 300 employees. 

 The DOE activities, the database 

that continues to be a main part of what we do 

and I will talk a little bit more about some 

activities on that in just a moment. 

 This idea about communicate, 
67 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

communicate, communicate is again, a big part 

of this program. And we hold weekly 

conference calls with members of NIOSH and its 

contractors to make sure that we are being 

supportive and we are getting them the 

information that they need and that we 

understand their request. 

 Again, within the Department, we 

are very fortunate to have the Office of 

Legacy Management. They bring a wealth of 

experience in terms of researching documents 

and they certainly provide a lot of insights 

and support to us, to this program, and then 

ultimately support to you guys. 

 DOE subject matter experts 

participated and contributed to the Advisory 

Board Working Groups in conference calls. 

Certainly we want to be there to facilitate. 

That is the main role of the Department of 

Energy and that we want to attend town hall 

meetings and be able to support NIOSH and DOL 

and interact with the public, as appropriate. 
68 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 The Federal Register notice, from 

time to time we have step back in a formal 

way, look at all the information that we have 

collected and update that information so it 

becomes much more useful for all of you. We 

issued the 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

Federal Register notice in April of 

2009 and that was an update from the 2007 time 

frame. 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Here are some examples. I won't go 

into great detail on all of them but here are 

the kinds of things that we did in terms of 

that update. A lot of it was for further 

clarification, as we research more and 

understand more, we realize that some of the 

designations may require some clarification. 

 In terms of the Albany Research 

Center, it is no longer designated as an AWE 

but it still is a DOE facility. In terms of 

General Electric, we also, it is no longer 

designated as an AWE but again, it remains as 

a DOE facility and a beryllium facility. In 

terms of Granite City Steel, this was, I 
69 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

think, an opportunity to revisit the name, 

what as the most appropriate name, so that 

when you are doing searches in the future, 

that they are more timely and that they are 

more accurate. 

 And in the case of University of 

California in Berkeley, we had to do some 

clarification there to make sure that it was 

clear that we weren't talking broadly about 

the University of California but specifically 

about Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory. 

 Again, back on the Office of Legacy 

Management, they do a wide variety of things 

for this program to keep it running, to make 

it successful in terms of retrieving documents 

and also assisting us in FOIA requests, by 

reviewing documents. FOIA is a big part of 

our process. There is certainly new thinking 

on how to do that better, in terms of FOIA but 

we continue to work on that in this program. 

 Again, this slide just describes 

some of the things that are going on in terms 
70 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

of Legacy Management. They have a lot of 

experience in terms of retrieving old 

documents and working with the National 

Archives and they bring that experience 

actually to our program. And there are a 

number of staff that are associated. And they 

are regular staff. We don't just get 

different people at different times. But some 

of you and some of your encounters with us 

have interacted with them. And so that, I 

think, certainly strengthens the program. 

 In terms of our facility, records 

research here, we have quite a bit going on 

and it is listed here. And you will be 

hearing more about that from time to time. 

 Some initiatives that are going on, 

one of the things at Department of Energy if 

you are really trying to influence change and 

to turn a major corner, is that you have to 

make sure that things are formalized, that 

they are in procurement actions and things so 

that when contracts go out, the expectation of 
71 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the department are met. We are working with 

the CIO's office, the Chief Information 

Officer, to revive contract information that 

gives a better understanding and sets clear 

expectation about ownership of records. 

Sometimes it is difficult for us to get our 

arms around records because contractors can 

change from time to time and especially in the 

DOE world now. You know, we had at one point 

in time, where you have an M and O contractor, 

a Managing and Operating Contractor that 

remained through, you know, all the time but 

now we are doing things quite different. So 

we want to make sure that it is clear who owns 

the records and how we can get those records 

and make the information available for 

programs such as this one. 

 The Los Alamos medical records, you 

have heard about this for a long time now and 

that we have been working really hard with the 

medical center there to make sure that DOE 

would once again have possession of those 
72 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

records and they would be available for people 

if they need them for claims. 

 We believe that, you know, that 

program now is being very successful. We have 

had successes. We are pretty much on our 

schedule. You know that those records were 

housed in a warehouse that was deteriorating. 

There were concerns, environment, safety and 

health concerns, about the records and whether 

just even looking at the records if they would 

pose any additional health concerns. We have 

actually quarantined the records. We have 

gone through the ES and H process and we are 

now in the process of sorting those records 

and getting them available for packaging. 

 So we believe that the program 

itself, I think, will be complete within a 

couple of months. And so those records would 

be available for people. So, we are very 

pleased about that. 

 We wanted to talk a little bit 

about where we are with again balancing all of 
73 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

these priorities of national security, of 

making sure that we protect vital information 

to individuals. We continue to do that and we 

want to be able to also do things in a timely 

manner. We think that we are able to turn 

things around in five to seven business days. 

Again, remembering that we did have those 

challenges with the PII where we were pretty 

much in a stand-down for a while and we have 

worked, for the most part, we have worked our 

way out of those things. 

 There was some discussion this 

morning about outreach. And I want to take 

just a minute or two to focus on DOE's 

efforts. At the beginning of every one of 

these discussions, I talk about the role of 

DOE as being facilitated and supporting 

Department of Labor and NIOSH in making sure 

that they get what they need. DOE also wants 

to take a leadership role in outreach, in 

terms of working with these different agencies 

and organizations making sure that we can 
74 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

bring all the resources, the appropriate 

resources together so that we can reach more 

individuals. 

 I will take a little bit of time 

and talk about the Former Worker Program. We 

had, I think, a brief discussion at the last 

meeting about that program that also is under 

Regina Cano in our organization, where we are 

trying to bring former workers back and have 

them screened to see if there are any adverse 

health effects as a result of the hazards and 

things that they have worked on. In many 

cases, it may have been unique to Department 

of Energy. 

 And so while there is not a one-toone link between the Former Worker Program 

results and the Department of Labor, we 

certainly want to provide the information that 

is available on the screening to help them 

figure out how that information might be used. 

 We have had a meeting of those 

different agencies together in headquarters, 
75 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

including the ombudsmen associated with those 

agencies. I think we have a good path forward 

on how we can work together and do even more 

outreach than we have done. And we have had, 

again, we had some delays as a result of PII 

but we are ready and up and running again to 

figure out how we can coordinate those things 

more. 

 In terms of the PII incident 

itself, it was a result of outreach. It was 

asking our Former Worker Program individuals 

to look at rosters, to update rosters, and to 

try to be more aggressive in getting out to 

those former workers. We use a lot of 

different ways to do that. We are trying to 

now work with these other agencies and 

piggyback on each other in terms of how to do 

that. 

 While it is a little bit strange 

but also the Internal Revenue is used to reach 

out on these rosters to help find individuals 

and make them aware of these programs. 
76 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Also in terms of outreach, we have 

had, for example, in the Hanford area, as you 

know, there are two major organizations in 

Hanford. One is the organizations that are 

dedicated to the Tank Farm and to the Vit 

Plant. That is the River Protection Project. 

And then the balance of Richland that focuses 

on all the other activities there. 

 We had a meeting that included 

those managers from those two DOE 

organizations at Hanford from DOE and from 

Department of Labor and from NIOSH to talk 

about how we could help those workers more, 

if here are some things that we can do. So we 

are being, I think, creative and aggressive 

about outreach and I believe we will be able 

to reap some rewards down the road of being 

able to reach more individuals, make them 

aware of all these programs and activities. 

 Training of DOL District Office and 

resource centers; probably training is not the 

word we want to use but more awareness. The 
77 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

idea is to make these different organizations 

more aware of the things that went on in DOE, 

the terms, the processes. And that would 

certainly help in facilitating reviewing 

documents, requesting documents, scheduling 

interviews and things like that. Again, more 

on awareness. 

 In terms of outreach, one of the 

things we have is what we call a DOE oversight 

points of contact. Again, we can't have any 

broken links in this process of being able to 

provide support and to communicate. And so we 

have these points of contact at each one of 

the sites. They attend local public meetings. 

They set up site tours. They work with the 

Department of Labor or NIOSH to provide site 

experts but it is in the hole that we need to 

fill, in terms of being able to do this job 

and to do it better. And so we certainly rely 

on them quite a bit. 

 And again, we want to continue to 

expand on the Former Worker Program. We think 
78 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that there is a lot to be gained there. 

 Since the OPA program actually 

relates to both current and former workers, we 

have also been trying to bring those two 

groups together so that our former worker docs 

can talk more with the current site 

occupational medical directors. 

 Here are the things that we are 

seeing with the former workers. You know, 

they are things that we ought to do different 

sort of with the current workers. So again, 

outreach awareness, I think is a big part. 

And again, we are looking for big rewards down 

the road. 

 I mention already the mission of 

the Former Worker Program. We think it is 

unique. It is important. Many, not all, but 

many of the former workers have private 

physicians but they may not be knowledgeable 

or aware of the occupational kinds of things 

that went on at DOE. So we think that this 

was a very good program. We want more people 
79 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to know more about it and that it is available 

for all of the former workers. 

 The local Pantex Former Worker 

Program, the principal investigator is Arthur 

Frank. We actually have a representative here 

in the room with us today from the Former 

Worker Program, Karen Gilmore. Would you 

stand up, Karen? This is the person here that 

helps to shake things up and get people or 

make them aware of what we believe is a great 

program. Thank you, Karen. 

 And I am available for questions, 

joined by my team, of course. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you very 

much, Pat. And I appreciate your comments, 

particularly on the Outreach Program. 

 Could you expand a little bit on 

what you called the training to the Department 

of Labor? And I think you used the word 

awareness. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Are those formal 
80 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

sort of seminar types of presentations or how 

does that work in a practical sense, in terms 

of making the DOL, Department of Labor 

Resource Center people aware of, I think you 

said the terminology and the processes. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: I will mention it 

a little bit and Greg or Gina, you may want to 

go ahead. They have actually been intimately 

involved in the training. But again, I view 

it as more awareness in terms of here are the 

kinds of operations and the things that went 

on in making available to them, S and Es, you 

know that can talk more about specific hazards 

and controls and things that were available at 

the site. 

 Gina, do you want to add more? 

 MS. CANO: Sure. Within the past 

couple of years what we did is we had our 

point of contacts, as Pat mentioned, we had 

them basically provide an overview at a 

district office. So we had whatever district 

office was responsible for DOE facilities, 
81 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

they all came in to that district office and 

they provided an overview of their site. Had 

an opportunity to ask questions with regard to 

the type of records that we transferred to 

Labor and how to interpret those records, you 

know, lessons learned. So, it was a very good 

opportunity again, for a positive improvement. 

 The same thing, what we plan on 

doing is the same thing for the resource 

centers. We have not yet done that yet. They 

did attend those meetings but we wanted to 

make sure that we also have a very focused 

awareness session, I guess you can say, for 

the resource centers. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So they gain an 

awareness of the type of activities that went 

on at the site, the nature of the processes 

within -- 

 MS. CANO: Correct. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- whatever 

boundaries you can do that -- 

 MS. CANO: Right. 
82 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- and the types 

of perhaps facilities and nuclides, the other 

activities that were involved, was that the 

idea? 

 MS. CANO: That is correct. An 

overview of site history, processes, 

buildings, acronyms for certain buildings, 

yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Very good. Thank 

you. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: We believe it 

makes for a much more meaningful -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: -- next steps, 

you know, following the awareness. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, very good. 

Other comments? Ms. Munn? 

 MS. MUNN: Yes, I was particularly 

interested in the POC that had been 

established that I wasn't aware that you had 

such an individual. From time to time 

situations occurred where members of this 
83 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Board have some question that is one of those. 

So who do I go to ask this? How do we, is it 

possible for us to also be aware of who those 

individuals are at the sites where we have 

some concerns. And is it appropriate for us 

to be interacting with them? 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Greg Lewis is the 

person who actually is responsible for the 

overall coordination of the POCs. I believe 

that probably the first entry might be into 

Greg or to our office that you are interested 

in and he will pull together the POC or POCs 

at that site that could help you more. I 

don't know if you have anything add, Greg. 

 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I would back that 

up. I mean, you already are interacting with 

him. It is just typically through me and I 

will channel it to the POC. 

 But I would also say at any working 

group meetings there are specific questions 

that you would like participation from our 

site POC or site subject matter experts in a 
84 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

particular area, we would be glad to 

facilitate that. 

 MS. MUNN: That is very good to 

know. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: The Site Managers 

are very supportive of the program and would 

be willing, you know, offer up their POCs for 

these kinds of interaction. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Worthington, 

I have another sort of comment and it pertains 

to slide 13. And I raise this mainly for 

confusion that has occurred in the past and it 

relates to General Steel Industries. And in 

your third bullet where you mention Granite 

City Steel, -- 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: I have got to 

find it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- and now listed 

as General Steel Industries, which is the 

correct designator. But I noticed you brought 

into the picture an additional name, which has 

caused me some confusion and that is General 
85 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

City Steel. Is that -- I know there actually 

is a separate Granite City Steel Company, 

which had been pointed out to us which is a 

facility that is not the same as General Steel 

Industries. But this General City Steel is a 

new term to me. 

 MR. LEWIS: Yes, and looking at 

that now, -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I know there has 

been confusion and [identifying information 

redacted] has tried to get these names sort of 

straight and now I see this additional 

designation. 

 MR. LEWIS: Yes, I would have to go 

back and check the facility list to make sure 

but looking at that now, I think that actually 

is a typo. I think that perhaps it should be 

General Steel Industries because that is what 

it was called during the covered period. So, 

we need to go back to work on that. But 

General Steel Industries. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The one that was 
86 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

named Granite City Steel was the term 

originally used and apparently was the wrong 

name. 

 MR. LEWIS: Yes, and I believe 

there is -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And that is maybe 

what was meant here in this? 

 MR. LEWIS: I believe so. And I 

think there is at least three other "also 

known as" listed on our website. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I want to make 

sure we are not introducing yet a third name 

into the -- 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: It was intended 

to provide clarification. So, we need to go 

back and fix that. And so Ted, we may need to 

fix the slide as well. I believe it is 

probably correct in the actual AWE update. 

 MS. CANO: Yes, it should be 

correct. And basically because we worked with 

[identifying information redacted] on this and 

[identifying information redacted] to make 
87 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

sure it was correctly cited. So, I believe it 

should be listed now as Granite City -- 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: But, we will come 

back to you -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No, General Steel 

Industries -- 

 MS. CANO: General Steel 

Industries, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- is the correct 

name of the covered site. But this term 

General City Steel, I had not heard that one 

before. There is a Granite City Steel but a 

General City Steel is yet a new term to me and 

I want to make sure. 

 I don't think that has been used in 

the past and if you wouldn't mind checking 

that. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: We will come back 

to you with clarification on that and an 

update to the slide, I believe, as well. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But we do know 

that General Steel Industries is the right 
88 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

name now. 

 Other comments, Board Members, or 

questions for the DOE team? 

 We will be interacting some more on 

general security issues in just a little bit. 

 So we will have additional opportunities for 

it to change. But we appreciate the summary 

and also the efforts that the Department of 

Energy has made to help us move forward on 

obtaining the records and getting the word out 

to the former workers as well. 

 I guess I did want to ask one 

additional thing on former workers. Is there 

a master list the DOE has? Do you know the 

names of all former workers at the DOE sites? 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: No, we do not. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: You do not. I 

did not think so but -- 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: That is a 

challenge and that is one of the things that 

we are working with the contractors to obtain 

the rosters. And then as we go forward in the 
89 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

future, there is a more formalized process for 

the ownership of that kind of information. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Are you building 

a database of these? 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Yes, we are. We 

are building a database but it is difficult to 

do. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Easier today. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Yes. And the 

outreach, I think, will help us to clean that 

up. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. Thank 

you. Mark Griffon. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Just a question on 

the site database 334. I mean, I think I know 

what it is. The covered facilities database. 

Often we see these one pagers that outline the 

years of operation. I guess you said you were 

going to say more about that but I didn't hear 

more. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: No, it was -- 

 MR. GRIFFON: Has it been expanded 
90 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

in its content or has it -- and also is it 

available for the Board Members? I don't know 

that I have ever -- 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: It should be up 

on our web page. It should be. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Is it on the web 

page? Okay. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: It should be. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Okay. 

 MR. LEWIS: Yes, there is a link to 

it on the DOE EEOICPA web page. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Oh. 

 MR. LEWIS: I would be glad to give 

you that -- 

 MR. GRIFFON: Yes, I can find that. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: And let us know 

if for some reason it is not working but it 

should be. It should be there. 

 MR. GRIFFON: All right. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: And thank you for 

your questions. They are always helpful. 
91 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you very 

much. 

 We are going to be getting in to 

the Board Security Plan but I don't think I 

will start that quite yet. I am thinking 

though while we are in the general area of 

security and so on, Mr. Katz, would it be 

appropriate for us to have the IT Security 

update that is on tomorrow's or -- 

 MR. KATZ: I mean that is -- yes, I 

can be very brief. It is not -- I am really -

- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I was hoping you 

would be really lengthy. 

 MR. KATZ: There is not a lot 

there. There is not a lot there. I would 

like to take it as I understand it, but I am 

not hearing from everybody. As I understand 

it, everybody has received a laptop. Is that 

correct? Are there any who have not? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Any Board Members 

who have not received the official laptop? 
92 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. KATZ: And then can I just have 

a raise of hands? How many Board Members have 

actually received a key fob, the RS (Security 

Device)? One, two, three, four -- eight. 

 DR. MELIUS: I may have. I haven't 

opened -- 

 MR. KATZ: Your Christmas package? 

 DR. MELIUS: -- my Christmas 

present. I told them to lock everything up 

and I have no idea what was included in the 

package. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The key fob 

probably would have come by FedEx in an 

envelope and it is very small and easy to 

throw out with the padding. 

 DR. MELIUS: I just don't know. I 

have been away for weeks. 

 MS. MUNN: In a little brown padded 

envelope. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Bob, I'm sorry? 

 MR. PRESLEY: Well the message that 

I got said that we would be getting that key 
93 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

fob in a separate envelope. I haven't got 

anything except the computer and they sent it 

while we were gone. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, so you were one of 

the four who haven't received the key fob. 

 MR. PRESLEY: Yes, I ain't received 

it. But I mean, I haven't received anything 

in the mail. 

 MR. KATZ: So that is helpful to 

me. And the other thing, this is just really 

administrative, but there are a number of 

Board Members who still have to complete their 

security work before they can go forward with 

getting a password and getting into the system 

entirely. 

 So, I have sent out notices to 

folks individually but it would be good to 

hear back from everybody and get that buttoned 

down. Because as I understand it, SC&A is 

coming along pretty well with their security 

work. Isn't that right, John? Yes. And once 

they are through with getting online, in 
94 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

effect, we will want to complete the business 

so that we can have everybody coming in 

through the firewall. And that way, we will 

change the way we are doing IT at that point 

forward. 

 So I am hoping that, say, within a 

month we can have this buttoned up. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Ms. Munn. 

 MS. MUNN: Ted, I am one of those 

people that received a message from you saying 

complete your security work. And I blinked at 

it because I did not have a feel for what 

security work I had not completed. 

 The message that came along with 

the key fob said call and get some further 

instructions. I called and we had a verbal 

exchange but so far as I know, there was no 

real security information. 

 MR. KATZ: The main things for 

people to do are one, I think some people 

completed the security training but didn't 

necessarily send in the form that allows CDC 
95 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to know that you have passed the IT security 

test. For folks who haven't done that, that 

is something. And then some individuals have 

fingerprinting that they still have to get 

into CDC. 

 MS. MUNN: It wasn't all that long 

before I got the fob. 

 MR. KATZ: Right, but there seems 

to be some disconnect because again, there is 

a number of people who haven't completed that 

process. 

 And then there is, CDC is trying to 

do this in sort of batch mode. So, until they 

get everybody straightened out, they are not 

going to initiate the process of getting 

everybody through the firewall and in. They 

are also, at the same time, they are making 

arrangements with Larry's IT people to set 

things up so that when you come in you will 

know. You will get to where you need to go 

and they are making that kind of software, 

they are doing that sort of software work at 
96 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the same time. But that is just about done. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: One of the 

problems is the following. Perhaps problem is 

not a good way to describe it but one of the 

issues is that Board Members are getting 

pieces of this from different sources. And it 

has not always been clear what the total 

picture is. One group needs some information 

relating to these secure computers and what is 

called the key fob or the something or other, 

which is a little encoding number thing. 

Thingy. 

 MS. MUNN: Thingy. It is a thingy. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And then we have 

the password or the, I don't know if it is a 

password, but some kind of a pin number. And 

you have there is a disc and some other things 

that you have to do. And you have the 

fingerprinting and you have all these 

different pieces. 

 And I suppose that not everybody is 

sure that they have taken care of all of the 
97 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

pieces. 

 MS. MUNN: Yes and you mentioned a 

disc. I got no disc. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, any way, I 

am sort of suggesting maybe, Ted, between us, 

we could compile a list of all those pieces 

and everybody can say okay, I have done this, 

this, this, and this but I didn't get that and 

let you know or something. 

 MS. MUNN: It would be very nice if 

we had a checklist. 

 MR. KATZ: I think I have actually 

communicated to people what they are missing 

or -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Or maybe you have 

essentially done it. 

 MR. KATZ: -- pieces, when they 

have missing pieces. So anyway, we can talk 

offline individually but I would like to do 

that in the near term so we can finish up that 

process. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, Josie and 
98 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

then Gen. 

 MS. BEACH: Well, we can talk 

offline then, if some of those pieces -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Gen Roessler. 

 DR. ROESSLER: Just to add to what 

you are saying. Board Members, we have a 

whole different life when we are not here at 

the meetings and we have a lot of things that 

are happening. 

 I think FedEx comes to my house 

almost every day with a package and with 

printed material and a disc in it. And at the 

time, they are probably not necessarily high 

priority. And I did find my disc that Ted was 

referring to the other day. I had recognized 

it and I set it aside as something to do. But 

I think the problem is we just have so much 

and we need guidance on these very important 

things as to what we should put at the head of 

the list. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes. Perhaps I have 

been remiss. I mean, I was under the 
99 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

understanding that the CDC IT security people 

would be contacting people and sort of holding 

their hand a little bit. It sounds like it 

happened in some cases but I gather it didn't 

happen in many others. So maybe, I am sorry 

about that. I just, it would be good for me 

to hear when people are having trouble here so 

that I can help. 

 MS. MUNN: You may have said it 

before but I think I have it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, and in 

parallel, I believe SC&A is in process of 

switching over to the new system. And are 

they all on these similar computers? John? 

 MR. MAURO: Moving forward, 

everyone has received their computers. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: You will have to 

speak up. We are going to switch this mic 

after lunch. But speak up real close to it 

John. 

 MR. MAURO: Everyone has received 

their computers that I spoke to. But my 
100 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

message to everyone because they call me and 

say well what do I do with my computer and my 

key fob and I say leave it in the box until we 

get further direction. So right now, my 

computer is sitting in a box and the key fob 

is in an envelope in a secure spot waiting to 

be given direction it is time to plug in. 

 So, am I correct? Is that the 

correct posture to take? 

 MR. KATZ: That is fine. They 

don't have to keep it in the box. But the 

reality is that they are still running through 

the security measures with the SC&A folks and 

they would like to as much extent as possible, 

take care of you all in batch mode. 

 MR. MAURO: At some point in the 

process, we have our point of contact that 

interfaces with the IT folks, Laurie Loomis. 

Is the next step in the process our point of 

contact will be approached by the IT folks and 

then she will distribute direction? 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, you should be 
101 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

contacted as you are cleared. 

 MR. MAURO: Okay. 

 MR. KATZ: I would actually suggest 

you folks take the computers out of the box 

and make certain -- 

 MR. MAURO: They are working. 

 MR. KATZ: -- they are what they 

should be and that they operate. It would 

probably be a good thing to do that upfront 

rather than wait until everything else has 

been done and then find that your computer 

just doesn't turn on or whatever it might be 

or there is missing parts. 

 DR. MELIUS: Is it true when you 

try to play solitaire, the FBI comes to your 

door? 

 MR. KATZ: It is absolutely true. 

There are other measures that are taken, too. 

 DR. MELIUS: I have heard that. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes we will need 

a list of what games are permissible. Guitar 

Hero is going to be your limit. Okay. 
102 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Any other questions on this? It is 

a business item but it does pertain indirectly 

to what our next item will be and we are going 

to take the next item up after lunch. But 

just for planning purposes, we have two 

documents that we are going to look at. One 

is called, I am looking at the electronic 

title of it, "Final Draft PROC-010-Data Access 

and Interview Process" and "Final Draft 

PROC-011- DOE Classification Review." Brad 

Clawson will lead us in that discussion, 

introducing the proposal of the ad-hoc Work 

Group on security. And then I believe Joe 

Fitzgerald will help us or lead us through 

those documents and we will have a chance to 

discuss them. 

 But let me, before we make our 

break, let me make sure everyone has the 

documents. Actually, I see they are on our 

electronic information stick for this program. 

So, if you didn't receive them or didn't bring 

them electronically with you, they are on the 
103 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

information memory stick that Zaida 

distributed to each Board Member. 

 So those two documents that we will 

be reviewing. And Brad, any other sort of 

preliminary comment at this point? We are not 

going to take these up before lunch because I 

want to allow full time for discussion but did 

I describe what you intend to do all right? 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes, we just wanted 

to make sure that it got out to all the Board 

Members. Ted had sent that out earlier. We 

haven't received any comments back or anything 

else like that but that doesn't mean that 

something hasn't come up. We want to make 

sure that everybody is satisfied with it and 

so forth. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: After we -- oh, 

okay. There is an additional comment, I 

guess. Greg -- 

 MR. LEWIS: Sure. Dr. Ziemer, you 

had some questions during Dr. Worthington's 

presentation about our covered facility 
104 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

website. I have called it up here. I can 

always send out the link to everyone later. 

 But this is just what it looks 

like. And over here you can select, you know, 

it has all of the various covered DOE, atomic 

weapons and beryllium facilities. 

 DR. MELIUS: Purdue? 

 MR. LEWIS: I have it on Pantex as 

just an example -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes. 

 MR. LEWIS: -- of how it comes up. 

Just a brief description and the time period. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. And 

actually this is a good supplement to the 

information on the NIOSH OCAS website. So 

that is very good. 

 So each of these covered sites is 

described in some amount of detail. 

 MR. LEWIS: Just like this. 

Similar to this, yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. 

 MR. LEWIS: Some have a little bit 
105 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

more description. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. 

 MR. LEWIS: Some have less but this 

is roughly what they look like. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Very good. Okay, 

any questions on that? 

 Now, and I think what is going to 

happen here, and Board Members it will be at 

your pleasure of course, but after the ad-hoc 

group makes their presentation and 

recommendation, we do want to hear from both 

NIOSH and from DOE in terms of any comments 

that they will want to make on the proposed 

Board Security Plan. And my understanding is 

that DOE has not had a full opportunity to 

review that. So, they may ask us to at least, 

if we do take action, to include some caveats 

that will allow them to make recommendations 

on changes if needed afterwards. 

 But in any event, that will be the 

plan and we will take that up right after our 

lunch break. 
106 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Mr. Katz, do we have any other 

items that have to come before us before the 

break? 

 MR. KATZ: No, nothing else. Thank 

you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Then we will 

recess for a lunch break. And I think in view 

of the time, we probably should be able to be 

back here by 1:00, instead of 1:15; although I 

don't know the exact layout of the food 

situation here. Do we have to go offsite? 

 MS. MUNN: No. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: It is your 

choice, I guess. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, well, we 

will leave that up to the individuals but we 

will shoot for reconvening at 1:00. So, we 

are recessed. 

(Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., a lunch recess was 

taken.) 
107 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 

(1:06 p.m.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We are ready to 

reconvene. We are going to begin our 

afternoon session with a discussion of the 

Board's Security Plan. This relates, of 
108 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

course, to materials particularly from DOE 

sites that are classified or sensitive in some 

way and the access that the Board has to those 

documents, in terms of carrying out the 

Board's responsibilities for dose 

reconstruction and related matters. 

 We had appointed an ad-hoc 

workgroup to help us develop a formalized plan 

that would meet the Department of Energy 

requirements and that we would coordinate with 

the existing security plan for NIOSH and its 

contractors and Brad Clawson was the chair of 

that Work Group. So, Brad is going to 

introduce this and then he will in turn, I 

believe call on SC&A to assist in reviewing 

the draft that is being presented by the Work 

Group. 

 So, Brad, I will give you the floor 

at this point. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Just to give you a 

little bit of background, earlier in 2009 

NIOSH established security plans for 
109 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

themselves, procedures. Theirs were procedure 

10 and 11 to themselves. And at the 

Albuquerque, New Mexico meeting in February, 

there was some discussion about this and it 

got into some members of the Advisory Board 

felt that it took away from our independence 

from NIOSH so this security group was formed 

to be able to draft our own procedures and 

mainly guidelining DOE Security Plans for 

Energy Employee's Illness Compensation Act, 

which is the governing document for both of 

these. 

 On the Board, there was Josie 

Beach, Bill Schofield, and Robert Presley. In 

that time, we had a working group in April 

21st to be able to go over these procedures to 

be able to change them to the Board's 

procedures so that we would still be 

implementing the Department of Energy's 

security plans with these. And our 

procedures, too, came out for Procedure 10, 

which is data access and interview procedures 
110 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

and Procedures 11, which is Department of 

Energy classification review and documents. 

 We have had numerous emails back 

and forth. And these basically, what I want 

you to understand, is that these basically 

mirror image what NIOSH's are. And we took 

great pains to be able to try to do that 

because our main issue is to make sure that 

the Department of Energy Security Plan is 

implemented, to be able to keep the security, 

the documents and so forth like that handled 

correctly. 

 And I guess all are supposed to, 

all of us were emailed a copy of this. And I 

guess if there is any other issues or plans, 

or if Joe would like to say anything about it, 

we are fine with it. I guess I would open it 

for discussion if, they would like. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Perhaps, Board 

Members, would it be kind of helpful if we 

asked Joe to kind of lead us through the 

document or are you -- 
111 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MS. MUNN: That would be helpful. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Joe, maybe 

you could kind of take us through and point 

out any particular, or highlight any 

particular items or issues that you think 

might be pertinent and perhaps make sure that 

we all understand how it coordinates with the 

NIOSH plan because was want to be working in 

tandem pretty much but be able to exercise 

both actual independence and perceived 

independence from NIOSH. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think as 

Brad was pointing out, we did go through some 

real deliberate review to make sure this 

tracks well with the Board's draft procedures. 

So, the intent was to mirror both what PROC010 and PROC-011 has in it but to provide for 

the independence of the Board the way we are 

operating on sites. There are some 

differences in that regard. Not many but some 

differences. And to preserve, I think as Brad 

pointed out, the adherence to the DOE Security 
112 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Plan, and pretty much to practices that we 

follow right now on DOE sites. So, it doesn't 

change so much what we do at this site. But 

what it does is, I think, provides for that 

independence and also provides for some 

discretion, once we get onsite in dealing dayto-day with DOE site people. 

 I am going to walk through the 

first one, data access interview procedures, 

which is Procedure 010 that you have a copy 

of. And I am going to just highlight was is 

different or what is noteworthy, rather than 

going through all the procedures. Because 

most of this does mirror what is already in 

PROC-010. 

 Under Responsibilities, 4.0, that 

is page four, you will see the Advisory Board 

Facility Point of Contact, that first label. 

What this first provision makes clear is that 

the Advisory Board's point of contact is the 

Technical Support Contractor in this case, 

SC&A, an SC&A employee or consultant. And 
113 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that individual acts on behalf of the Board at 

the various sites. 

 And in practice, it is typically 

one or two people. We are not talking about 

30 people or 15 or 20 people. It is going to 

be one or two people that would be the 

coordination point. That is not going to 

change much in the way things have gone 

relative to DOE sites and pretty much that is 

going to be the same. 

 If you go a little further down, 

clearly what we are basically saying is that 

the POC, in this case, SC&A is responsible for 

notifying NIOSH, the DFO, and members of the 

Board, when we are going out and actually 

beginning a process at the site. So certainly 

that initial coordination of making sure 

everybody knows that we are doing this. In 

some cases, there is an invitation for Board 

Members to participate and some interviews we 

have done in the past. In the case of the 

DFO, clearly when we start this process, we 
114 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

are going to start impinging on DOE resources 

in some ways. And that is certainly a key 

role for DFO to interface with DOE. And that 

kind of launches the process. 

 There will be a data capture plan, 

of course, produced and delivered. And really 

the beginning of the process is where I think 

we basically make sure everybody knows what is 

going on. The difference is, once we do get 

on site and go day-to-day, that pretty much 

will go without going through these various 

loops, unless something comes up. 

 If there is a question or an issue, 

and this is the way it goes now, so this isn't 

really a change. If something comes up where 

there is a problem, certainly with the DFO or 

the DOE, we will bring it back and try to get 

that solved. So that is pretty much the same. 

 One thing that we have made a 

little bit clearer under the responsibility 

is, and we certainly were moving in that 

direction last year. But I think this makes 
115 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

it more explicit that we are going to, as a 

first step baseline, our document request 

against what has already been collected, in a 

very systematic way, by NIOSH at that 

particular site. Which means we will formally 

go to that NIOSH POC for that site, go through 

pretty much their data capture plan, what is 

in progress, what is in the pipeline, who they 

have interviewed, and what notes exist from 

those interviews, which is certainly a bit 

more systematic than perhaps we have done in 

the past and I think it is a good way to go. 

 This is going to, I think, minimize 

and mitigate against duplication, the 

redundancy, and it is going to help the 

process, make it more efficient. 

 And I think the last item there is 

that certainly as we are now responsible for 

submitting pretty much everything we do at the 

sites, the notes, the documents collected, any 

draft material that we produce to DOE for 

security review, this pretty much adheres to 
116 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the DOE Security Plan. This doesn't change 

that at all. 

 That is a thumbnail in terms of the 

POC. And this differs, I think from an 

earlier draft where I think we had a POC 

designated for each site as we went from the 

Work Group. I think this just makes it clear 

that we are pretty going to use an SC&A person 

pretty much for a number of these sites, 

unless there is an issue where we need to have 

an additional one. 

 Any questions on sort of the role 

of the Technical Support Contractor, in this 

case, SC&A, for this thing, data access? That 

pretty much is the description of that role. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Joe, do you 

anticipate that this will simply be SC&A or 

will it be one or two named persons that will 

be sort of the fixed points of contact? 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, the latter. I 

think that has worked out well. I think the 

only issue going toward the future, clearly 
117 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Cathy has been a principal, one person doing 

that. But as we get broader, we certainly 

would look at the possibility of using 

additional people in that role but it is not 

going to be a lot of people. It is going to 

be one, maybe two. So there will be a central 

point of contact and a backup, in case there 

is a need for a backup. 

 So, I think that is going to keep 

it more coherent and coordinated and carry the 

experience forward. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Melius? 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, I would just say 

I would argue in support of that because I 

think having some consistency to how this is 

being dealt with and continuity is probably 

most important at this point in time as we 

sort of implement this procedure. But I think 

it should make it more efficient for NIOSH, 

DOE and the Board and its contractor for 

dealing with these issues. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, this doesn't 
118 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

change the status quo. This pretty much 

codifies what we do in practice. So, it is 

going to be efficient. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Poston. 

 DR. POSTON: Joe, I am pretty much 

in favor of this but I wanted to make sure I 

understood exactly how the -- let's take the 

situation of a working group. On most working 

groups, there is at least one person from 

SC&A. Would that person be the POC? Suppose 

we needed data. Suppose we needed information 

-- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. 

 DR. POSTON: -- from whatever 

working group site we are working on. How 

does this, is that -- if the working group 

says they would like to see the data, does 

that mean that the SC&A person on the 

committee becomes the POC and has the action? 

 MR. FITZGERALD: No. I think the 

way it is worked, and I can speak from first 

experience because I am sort of lead on a 
119 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

couple of sites like Mound and Pantex and I 

rely on the SC&A POC, onsite POC for record, 

you know, acquisition, review, and interviews. 

And it is sort of a cross-matrix kind of 

relationship where the individual provides 

that support for the site to the various Work 

Groups and that provides the continuity and 

the support. And that seems to work pretty 

well in practice. We have been doing that for 

about four or five years now. 

 DR. POSTON: So you would, whoever 

is on the working group would pass that to the 

POC for action? 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, it is pretty 

seamless. 

 DR. POSTON: All right. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: And that would be 

done very transparently. So clearly, if you 

and your position as Work Group chair, you 

would know that in fact the lead for SC&A for 

the Work Group is relying on the so-called 

lodge report POC to do that job. 
120 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 And there may be more than one 

person doing that job. In some cases, I have 

joined that individual for interviews, as have 

some Board Members. So, it tends to expand 

when the time comes to do interviews to 

collect data. It is not just that one person 

all the time. But that person has the 

coordination role and sort of holds that role 

and makes sure the trains run on time, there 

is continuity. 

 Board Members, Work Group members, 

others can join into that process at any time 

but at least one person is responsible for 

making sure that this thing gets followed, the 

process gets followed and the results are 

shaped. 

 DR. POSTON: So those other things 

you didn't address because we don't have to 

address them? 

 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm sorry, the 

other things? 

 DR. POSTON: The involvement of 
121 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

more than one person, Work Group people. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, that's in 

here. I mean, I think the initial 

notification of the intent to go onsite and do 

some of the interviewing and the data access 

involves informing Work Group Board Members, 

the DFO for NIOSH and the NIOSH POC, 

everybody, and DOE, everybody knows that there 

is a plan to go onsite to begin doing this 

process. That opens it up for any questions, 

issues, that the Work Group may raise. It 

opens up for possible participation for one or 

more Board Members that they want to 

participate, interviews we have done in the 

past. It raises questions about what 

documents NIOSH has collected. It also alerts 

DOE of the intent to go forward and starts 

engaging the coordination that DOE would 

provide. 

 So that really starts a process 

that touches just about everybody in this room 

and gives everybody a chance to weigh in. It 
122 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

also alerts them to this process that is going 

to go forward. And you know, I think this has 

evolved over time. I think this is probably 

the best, sort of, layout of that process that 

we have to date but I think that is where we 

are right now. And it has worked. I mean, 

that is one thing that you always wonder but 

it has worked in practice and has been 

effective. 

 DR. POSTON: Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Brad. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes, I just wanted to 

make sure with Dr. Melius because in the 

earlier draft one of my issues was, as John 

was alluding to a little bit earlier is a Work 

Group chair and so forth like that, I wanted 

to have be more apprised of what data access 

is going on and so forth like that and your 

comment back that the way that you read it was 

that we didn't have the time to be able to do 

that. And I wanted to make sure that this 

addressed what your concern was. 
123 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 I think it went a lot, I think it 

is very good the way it is there. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, I think it does. 

 I think Dr. Poston's comment was, there has 

been a responsibility on the part of that 

point of contact that SC&A to coordinate with 

everybody and communicate with everybody. And 

I think it is spelled out in different parts 

so it is maybe not all in one place. I have 

had a little trouble locating, I was looking 

for another issue related to that and do that. 

But I think it is all there. 

 And I think that will be the test 

of this, as opposed to having a more -- you 

know different, each Work Group would do it on 

its own. And I think then we lose the ability 

to coordinate and the consistency in terms of 

contact with DOE and so forth. 

 I mean, I am supportive of this. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes, I just wanted -- 

you know, we really have been doing this up 

front. I have been involved in somewhat of 
124 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

some data capture and so forth and Kathy 

Demers-Roberts is SC&A's point of contact. We 

didn't, we purposely the way we worded it was 

wanted to keep it open if she got overloaded 

or so forth like that. For some procedures, 

SC&A may have to coordinate another person 

into it or whatever. And we were trying very 

hard to be able to implement that into it. 

 But in the retrieval and stuff, it 

makes very good like a Work Group chair myself 

for Fernald or whatever I can call her and 

find out what we are actually going through or 

I can go through SC&A who can go to her and we 

know where everything is at and it has worked 

quite well. She has done a fabulous job. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Joe, let me 

follow up, though. In practice, let's say 

Kathy is the point of contact and let's say a 

Work Group needs to some data capture where 

they want to be involved in something, they 

let Kathy know. But if she is overloaded, she 

takes the initiative, I assume, to ask for 
125 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

another SC&A person to assist. Or at some 

point where she is overloaded, does SC&A say 

okay, we now have a second person and that is 

who you now contact? Or is how this going to 

work? 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: From the Board's 

point of view, it seems like if there is one 

person that we contact, it would be good, -- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- even if that 

person has to offload it. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, for 

continuity purposes, this is a balancing act. 

For continuity purposes, because you know, 

there is a number of bases that have to be 

touched and have to be touched every time. 

So, to some extent, you know, she is managing 

that process. Now, to the extent she has got 

to cover the scope of work, that is where all 

of us come in. She is not going out and doing 

all of the site work by herself. She is part 
126 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

of the team that is doing the site work. 

 I am going to Brookhaven with her 

next seek to do onsite work. And she is in 

California doing on-site work with some other 

SC&A people. So to some extent, this is the 

common thread through the onsite work but she 

is not the one simply doing the work by 

herself. 

 Now, one thing we do monitor is, 

and clearly we are concerned about overstretching her over too many sites even on 

that basis. And that is something we monitor 

all the time. And a couple of times we have 

pulled her out from Mound have gone out with a 

couple of people without her just to do the 

onsite retrieval just because we were 

stretching her too much. We can do what she 

does but she has got to be sort of, I think, 

that common thread continuity and that point 

of contact, so that it is done right. 

 And we do lean on her to make sure 

that the process, the bases are touched and 
127 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that the interviews are done consistently over 

time. And that is the value, I think, of that 

approach. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Phil, Wanda, Jim. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: I have just got one 

question for you. I assume the facilities 

obviously are more sensitive than others, as 

far as data classification and stuff. How are 

you, SC&A going to handle that, where you get 

into a facility that is just like on this 

Board, some of you have clearances, some of 

you don't. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: In terms of 

classification? 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Yes, in terms of 

classification when you go into these records. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, well Kathy is 

cleared, as am I. So you know, we have a 

couple more cleared people who in tandem can 

handle the classified sites. Yes, it wouldn't 

work unless she and I at least one other 

person were cleared for those data 
128 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

acquisitions. 

 And you know, we have to file the 

protocol, security plan an all of that. And 

yes, there is certainly a lot more 

expectations and requirements that come into 

play in dealing with that situation. But I 

think at this stage, we are getting pretty 

experienced, you know, at this point. It has 

been four or five years dealing with 

classified sites. And not to say it gets any 

easier, but certainly we do know, you know the 

process and the cautions that we have to go 

through. But you know, we certainly divided 

up where there is a classified side and an 

unclassified side. And nothing comes out to 

the unclassified site until DOE has cleared it 

and it is not shared in all documents. 

 And one thing we did with the 

procedure which I thought was helpful is the 

back end, there were a couple of items that 

were in PROC-010 on the NIOSH side. For 

example, a somewhat more systematic approach 
129 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to what you do with documents that 

interviewees might give you in the process of 

an interview. Well, we have always handed 

those over to DOE. We didn't have a real 

straight procedure that laid out A, B, C, D, 

E. That is in here now. So, what we do, the 

documents is exactly the same as what NIOSH 

would do with documents. So there is 

certainly some value in the uniformity that 

has now been put into place where we would 

accomplish the same thing. And certainly 

under PROC-10 we are required to do the same 

thing. But in the past, I am talking two or 

three years ago, there might not have been as 

much of a procedural process then. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thanks. Wanda? 

 MS. MUNN: Joe, there are a couple 

of things in the document that we have been 

looking at here that raise questions. I think 

some of those questions were a part of our 

original concern that underlay the request for 

this document. One is that the DOE 
130 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

headquarters POC is responsible for 

coordinating and providing funding to the DOE 

site POC to support our activities here. And 

this is something over which we, of course, 

have absolutely no control. Only once in my 

memory have we encountered a situation where 

one of the sites said they really didn't have 

the funding to support us at the time we 

wanted it and that was some time in the past. 

 But if we encounter that situation, 

we are sort of dead in the water before we 

ever get going. But there is also the DOE 

site classification officer will assist the 

team by providing guidance on how to submit 

notes, etcetera. And I am assuming that all 

of these things are already, as you have said, 

in place and operating. And all of the POCs 

involved understand that and we are now just 

simply codifying this appropriately. 

 The one thing that I am still 

concerned with is the security clearance of 

the people who are sitting around this table. 
131 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 You know, as you and I spoke last night, I 

mentioned to you the fact I haven't held a Q 

clearance for over, I personally have not held 

a Q clearance for over ten years. And there 

are times when I, as a Board Member, would 

very much like to be involved in some of these 

activities. 

 On some sites, that isn't the major 

issue. On the sites where it is a major 

issue, those are the sites that normally are 

involved in the kinds of activities and the 

precision of detail in which we really and 

truly are quite interested. 

 So, I guess what I am asking is 

whether there is anything in this document 

that gives us more access as Board Members 

than there was before we ever started this 

process. I don't read anything in there that 

tells me that it is any more likely that we 

might have access. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: No, this sort of 

codifies current practice. 
132 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MS. MUNN: Yes, that is what I 

thought. Thanks. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. 

 MS. MUNN: You said that. Just 

verifying it. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. 

 MS. MUNN: Thanks. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Melius? 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, I have a 

question. And this may be as much a question 

for the Department of Energy because I think 

it applies overall also to the NIOSH policy. 

It is regarding interviews. I have been 

recently made aware of some confusion at one 

of the sites with former workers and current 

workers being interviewed offsite and some 

confusion on their part as to whether and how 

they were notified about the fact that there 

would be a DOE review of those interviews. 

 And I believe I had asked at the 

last Board Meeting would DOE consider some 

sort of communication that could be handed to 
133 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

people who are being interviewed, indicating 

that they would not be, there would be no 

retaliation for them providing information, as 

long as they, you know, followed the process 

and so forth. 

 Because I think that has been a 

long-standing issue within DOE going back 

many, many years from my involvement 

evaluating DOE sites. And I also think it may 

need to be made more clear in all of our 

procedures for interviews because one is the 

question of whether these people were -- how 

they are informed. And the informed part is 

captured in the current document but there is 

also, I think, an issue do their names need to 

be given to DOE when the classification review 

is taking place. And then is there any other 

communication within the facilities. I think 

it is particularly important for current 

workers, any other communication of that 

information within the facility because the 

current workers feel there may be some 
134 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

retaliation for them having participated or 

for what they might have said. 

 So, I don't know the internal 

procedures well enough but if you could 

comment on that. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Worthington, 

perhaps, can comment on that. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Sure, I will be 

happy to do that. 

 In terms of your comment can DOE 

proceduralize some thing that could be handed 

out to the workers current informer, there 

would be no retaliation associated with the 

interview, Mr. Podonsky would certainly be 

pleased to do that and we will work with our 

security organization in terms of wording and 

whatever it is and make sure that actually 

when we update our security plan that there is 

information that would actually refer to that. 

 I think you had another point that 

was related to DOE. 
135 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Yes, that is a very good 

suggestion. We are always in the business of 

process improvement. So we will look into 

making that happen as well. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, I also think it 

fits the Privacy Act issues. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Yes, we are very 

focused on making sure that we are very 

proactive in avoiding any PAI type activities. 

And since I have the microphone, I will just 

take one more minute to say that from a DOE 

perspective, we are very appreciative of the 

Board and its contract, in terms of all of the 

work that you have done in working with us on 

a security plan and how these requirements can 

be met. 

 And we know it has been painful and 

it has been longer than we all had hoped for 

but we are certainly pleased with where you 

are. And we received the document towards the 

end of the day on Wednesday. We are reviewing 

it and you will get comments back to you 
136 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

regarding that. And I guess the main comment 

today is that we want to make sure that the 

base document is referring back to the DOE 

document, that here are the things that can be 

done to meet those requirements. 

 So again, thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Joe, I think you 

were still on Section 4 and maybe we have 

asked questions beyond that -- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Well actually that 

was -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- but why don't 

you -- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: To some extent, 

yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- go into some 

additional things that you wanted to 

highlight. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Well certainly one 

of the key ones was this point of contact. 

So, I think that was important to address. 

 The DOE facility POC, the DOE 
137 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

headquarters, POC, I think both of those are 

pretty much tracking with what is already in 

procedures. And so I don't think there is 

anything there that you haven't seen already. 

 To respond a little bit to Wanda, I 

think we have very promptly gone to the DOE 

point of contact when we have had any issues 

at all at the site, whether security or 

resources. And in almost all cases, in fact 

in all cases I can remember, they were 

mitigated pretty quickly. So certainly, we 

have gotten good support from Pat's office. 

 In terms of the NIOSH facility POC, 

which is a little further down, I think the 

key distinction there is the point of contact, 

the interagency point of contact becomes 

important when resources are being impinged 

upon. Meaning, that whenever we make a 

request for documents, we want people to do 

searches, whatever, these are all resource 

attempts in some cases. And that requires an 

agency-to-agency contact or interface. And we 
138 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

can't do that on our own. And that is where 

the value of having that up front 

acknowledgment that we are going to the site 

making this request, asking for X, Y, and Z, 

making sure that both the NIOSH POC and the 

DFO and DOE is aware of it. That is what 

makes that happen. 

 So the key issue there is certainly 

resources. And the other thing of course is 

the, what I mentioned earlier, was the value 

of baselining against what the NIOSH person 

who is working on that site -- in most cases, 

we do have a counterpart, what they have 

collected, making sure that we certainly don't 

ask DOE for the same information that has 

already been requested. Or, try to interview 

perhaps the exact same individual and when in 

fact we have a transcript of the interview 

sitting on the O: drive or something. 

 So it is certainly some useful 

homework before we go anywhere on the site and 

make sure we cover that. So that is what that 
139 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

covers. 

 Certainly the DFO speaks for itself 

and I certainly let Ted speak for himself but 

I think that pretty much lays out the role of 

the Designated Federal Official as far as this 

whole thing goes. It is certainly responsible 

for the implementation of these procedures. 

 Beyond that, 5.0 is the procedures 

themselves and I am not going to go through a 

lot of this in detail. It is after lunch. 

You have already read it. It is procedures. 

 Maybe some of the key things would 

be under 5.1.2. This is something that I 

mentioned earlier in response to John's 

comment that, you know, certainly we would 

notify the DFO, interested Board Members, all 

initial visits to the sites so that you are 

aware of these visits but the intent is what 

we are trying to get at in terms of documents. 

 If it is a Work Group certainly you 

would want to have a look at the data capture 

plan. Pretty much the strategy for what 
140 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

documents are being sought and what interviews 

are being planned. So really this is, the 

whole idea is to keep the Work Group fully in 

the loop as far as what this process is going 

to deliver. 

 And one thing we wanted to make 

pretty clear, though is once we get sort of to 

the point where we are actually day-to-day on 

the site and doing the actual reviews, you 

know, interacting pretty much with the points 

of contacts at the DOE sites, that is where we 

are not going to be looping through all the 

various POCs whether it is DOE, the Board or 

the DFO. We are just basically going to be 

working with the counterparts at the site that 

DOE has identified for us. 

 That certainly is very efficient. 

We have done it that way and it gets the work 

done. If something happens, there is a 

problem, we will surface that right away. So 

either Ted will hear about it, the DOE site 

counterpart will hear about it but certainly 
141 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

we haven't hesitated in the past to make sure 

somebody knows there is a hiccup. Because we 

really don't have that much time. You know, 

we are sort of on the site for four or five 

days. And if we lose a day, that is pretty 

severe. So we really do need to keep plugging 

ahead and make sure nothing slows it down. 

 I don't know, is there any question 

on five? You know, I could go through all of 

these but I think they are kind of selfexplanatory and actually they mirror what is 

already in PROC-010, which is the current 

procedure in place. 

 This also reflects our practice 

over the last four or five years at the sites, 

as it has evolved. I am not going to pretend 

this is the way it was four or five years ago 

but pretty much the way it is now. And there 

is some more specification in places that we 

didn't have it before but PROC-010 provides, I 

think, for more specification. And we went 

ahead and put that in and we are following 
142 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that. 

 So, I think we have gone back and 

forth with the NIOSH procedures. There 

shouldn't be any differences except in those 

places where it was intentional. And the 

places where you might see a little difference 

is in the interview process. You know, the 

objectives are a little different and the 

process is a little different. You know, we 

have had this experience of trying to tell the 

workers. In the beginning we would say, you 

know, we are not going to use your name. That 

is a little bit misleading because in a sense, 

all of our interview notes go to DOE for 

review. 

 And even if they don't have names 

attached, if there is an issue, clearly they 

will want to get back to the individual. So 

we can't really guarantee any of that. We 

just need to be very open about that, which is 

in here and make sure that there is full 

disclosure on how the process works. 
143 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Now our interview summary, and we 

do this for all the sites, we don't really put 

these individual interviews in the report. 

What we do is we summarize all the interviews 

and come up with this master summary that is 

the attachment to the, whether it is the Site 

Profile or whatever. And so that tends to 

mask identity better. And I think that is one 

important feature that we go through. 

 And the other thing that we do, I 

think, which is not explicit in PROC-010 but 

we validate every single interview with the 

interviewee and give that interviewee a chance 

to not only validate that that is what he or 

she had said but if on second thought after 

reading the notes the light bulb goes on, you 

know, there is some important thing that was 

forgotten, that is not unusual, we tell them 

that they can do it but the issue is, it goes 

back to DOE one more time for a clearance 

because something has been added and then it 

comes back out. So that certainly is 
144 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

exciting. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Questions? Jim. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, I think what I 

was asking was is there a way of completing 

masking the name of the interviewed individual 

when that information goes to DOE for 

classification review? 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, we redact the 

name but the issue, as we saw it was, if there 

was an issue discovered, meaning that there 

was a classification question, we couldn't, 

you know, certainly, there might be a need to 

go back and divulge that name just to find a 

source of information. There was sort of that 

possibility that we couldn't cover and didn't 

want to mislead the interviewee. 

 In other words, if in fact 

something was found, there might be a need to 

find out what the source of that particular 

piece of information might have been. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So you would be 

saying that you couldn't guarantee anonymity. 
145 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. FITZGERALD: That's right. I 

mean, we would do everything we could. And 

the likelihood was there would be anonymity 

but there wouldn't necessarily be a guarantee 

because there was always that loophole where 

if something was found in the clearance 

process, you know, there could be 

understandably a need to go back and find out 

what the source of that particular piece of 

information might have been. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, well at least I 

think that should be explained -- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. 

 DR. MELIUS: -- in detail rather 

than just the assumption that the main because 

again, this is also during this transition and 

I don't know exactly what happened here. But 

the incident I heard about was people, you 

know, assuming that their named information 

was being what was submitted and was being 

reviewed by the Department of Energy. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. 
146 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 DR. MELIUS: And there are some 

current workers at the site and they were 

concerned about that. So, I think knowing 

that they would only need to be named if there 

needed to be follow back -- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Right and what we 

have done -- 

 DR. MELIUS: -- coupled with some 

statement, official statement from DOE saying 

you know, people will not be retaliated 

against for this would be reassuring. Because 

that is not how it was understood, I think. 

And then again, this is sort of during the 

transition. I don't know exactly what -- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think 

sometimes, you know, maybe a miscommunication 

because when one is walking through that, you 

don't catch -- and we are trying to be very 

careful to emphasize it that DOE will review 

these notes. But we do essentially is take 

the names out and substitute a number. And 

there is cross code that we have so we can get 
147 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

back to the individual for that particular set 

of notes. But we give DOE the version that 

has the number in it. 

 But you know, sort of, you learn as 

you go. And one thing that we have learned is 

that that is a possibility. So we have to be 

able to alert them that we can't guarantee it 

but the likelihood is probably relatively 

small. But again, sometimes it gets lost in 

translation. It can be misperceived as the 

government is reviewing these things and they 

know who I am. But we try to be clear, this 

is the process we are following -- 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: -- and we have 

followed this for quite a while. But I think 

it is probably in the last six months that we 

realized and we had some discussions on the 

question of anonymity that that is the one 

possibility that would affect that. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Mr. Presley. 

 MR. PRESLEY: John, I have got one 
148 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

question. It says that the Advisory Board 

Facility point of contact conducts scanning. 

"When the Advisory Board Facility point of 

conducts the scanning, the DOE point of 

contact is responsible for providing adequate 

space to conduct the scanning, and for 

ensuring that all documentation is 

appropriately marked before scanning is 

conducted." 

 Are you all really comfortable with 

somebody going into a facility like Y-12 and 

doing their own scanning? 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I might add 

that this is coordinated with DOE so we would 

not be doing our own scanning if it were a 

secure area. It would have to be done some 

other way. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, Greg will 

perhaps add to this. 

 MR. LEWIS: Yes, that is something 

that we often work out in our preplanning 

calls when we interact with the POCs. Some 
149 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

facilities do allow scanning depending on the 

information, how it is marked, what level of 

classification, etcetera, some facilities 

don't. So we can all work that on a case-bycase basis and we get that clearly established 

ahead of time before the data capture. 

 MR. PRESLEY: So you all are 

comfortable with what it says. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: We are still 

reviewing the document and your comments. And 

certainly this is the place where caveats are 

needed. Because it doesn't apply universally. 

 MR. PRESLEY: Right. That is 

exactly right. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: If you need a 

space and it is not -- 

 COURT REPORTER: I don't have her. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Pat, could you 

repeat that into the mic because the court 

reporter could not pick that up. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: I apologize. 

Again, as I mentioned, we received the 
150 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

document on Wednesday afternoon and are still 

reviewing it. This certainly would be a place 

where we would provide some feedback because 

as written now, it kind of applies across the 

Board universally. And as Greg was pointing 

out, there is preplanning and you do it caseby-case. And since we are talking about 

certain facilities, the answer would be no. 

There are some facilities where you wouldn't 

come in and people from the outside would be 

doing the scanning. 

 So, we will offer some suggested 

edits for this. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Well, Mr. Presley, 

too, I think you better look at 4 point -- 

 MR. PRESLEY: I looked at the next 

one. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Okay. Because this 

line, it is explaining exactly that. 

 MR. PRESLEY: There is also, there 

is two things there. And I just want to make 

sure that they are comfortable with it all. 
151 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. CLAWSON: Let me interject 

though. 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Well let me 

interject though. This is taken right out of 

PROC-010 which is in place right now and 

really this is a list of options. This is not 

a sequence or anything. This is three things 

that might happen. We do it, DOE does it or 

NIOSH would do it. The three possibilities 

exist for scanning documents. 

 We did not have something like this 

in place before. In fact we, in practice, in 

the past, haven't routinely scanned documents. 

 Now for Mound, for the first time, we were 

shoulder to shoulder with ORAU. ORAU was at 

the site doing something and we happened to be 

there at the same time. And they scanned the 

documents we were collecting right into the O: 

drive. So, I think it is going to vary from 

site-to-site. These are the three 

possibilities and in three cases we followed a 

different track. 
152 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 I might add that on the SC&A or the 

technical support contractor doing it, that, 

as far as a routine option, that is brand new. 

 So that is going to probably entail a bit of 

a change of practice for us, since we don't do 

it routinely and we would have to figure out a 

way to get it done. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Melius. 

 DR. MELIUS: If we are through 

discussing, I could sort of figure out what we 

are doing next to this document and I actually 

have a suggestion. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay well let me 

ask, Joe, did you have additional comments? 

 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I think the 

rest of this is procedures that you will find 

in PROC-010 as it now exists. I think it is 

pretty consistent. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well there are 

two things. There is an additional document -

- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. 
153 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And I believe 

that, it is my understanding that, the Work 

Group is going to recommend adoption of these 

two documents. Is that not the case? 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes, that is correct 

with DOE's concurrence on it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well and we know 

that DOE is not in a position to concur today. 

 So there are a couple of possibilities. One 

would be to defer action. The other would be 

to adopt these documents with a caveat or two. 

 The caveats would be, for example, that they 

not go into effect until DOE has completed 

their review. That would be one caveat. 

 The second caveat would be that 

they would be subject to modification the DOE 

might suggest. But if it is a substantive 

modification, then they would, in my judgment, 

need to return to us to have a final look at 

it. If it is an editorial or refinement, then 

possibly we could adopt it and have it be put 

in place once DOE's review occurred. 
154 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 DR. MELIUS: And I was going to 

suggest that that final, that position on the 

Board's part, whether it is a substantial 

difference or not would be that you, Dr. 

Ziemer, and Brad and Joe review that. And 

then if you decide that it does require more 

discussion at the Board level, bring it back. 

 If not, we would put it into this type of 

possibility going into effect. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right because the 

caveat would be that once DOE reviewed it, 

number one, if they are happy with it, it goes 

into effect. If they have minor 

modifications, we make them and it goes into 

effect. 

 If in our judgment they were 

substantive, then we would bring it back to 

the Board or even a subset of that might be 

everything goes into effect except one 

particular part. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So that would be 
155 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the outcome. 

 Now let me ask Joe and Brad, do we 

need to discuss the other document first? 

 DR. MELIUS: My personal feeling is 

that we really don't because the only thing 

that we would change from this is to the 

Board's POC. Everything else has stayed the 

same from NIOSH is. Like we said, we tried to 

mirror exactly what had already been approved. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Joe, any comments 

on the -- 

 MR. FITZGERALD: I just want to 

add, yes, this is based on the DOE Security 

Plan and I think a very carefully worked out 

set of procedures based on what the security 

clearance process is. So really, we are doing 

it to be held to it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I would like to 

ask NIOSH if they have any comments. Larry, 

has your group had a chance to review this? 

And if so, do you have any comments one way or 

the other? Are you comfortable that it 
156 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

parallels and provides the needed 

coordination? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, from an OCAS 

perspective, we haven't reviewed what has been 

drafted. We participated in the working group 

discussion. We have no comments yet on that. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Brad, do 

you wish to present a formal motion at this 

time? 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes, I do but because 

I was the Work Group chair, I didn't know if I 

could do that or not. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Oh, yes. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: In fact, you not 

only can, you must. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Okay. I would like 

to -- thank you. I appreciate that. 

 I would like to propose to the 

Board that we accept these two procedures, 

with the caveat that we were discussing about 

the DOE. And I can't remember everything that 
157 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

you said into it. It kind of took me by 

surprise there. But anyway, DOE has got to be 

able to concur on this and if there is 

anything of great change that we could either 

take that out and proceed on because I think 

it is crucial for us to be able to get these 

into place. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And the motion 

from the Work Group then is that we adopt both 

of these documents with the caveat that they 

would not take effect until DOE has completed 

their review, caveat A. Number two, that if 

DOE has suggested changes and they are not 

substantive, then the changes be made and that 

the procedures go into effect. 

 Or, if they are substantive, that 

the Chairman of the Work Group, Chairman of 

the Board, and the Designated Federal Official 

will make a judgment as to whether they are 

substantive and whether or not the full 

document or parts thereof have to be returned 

to the Board. 
158 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Was that your motion? 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes, that sure sounds 

like what I tried to say. 

 (Laughter.) 

 DR. POSTON: That is exactly what 

he said. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That motion 

doesn't require a second, since it comes from 

a committee. 

 Josie, a comment? 

 MS. BEACH: I was just wondering if 

we could hear from DOE on maybe a time frame 

for comments? 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: Yes, by the end 

of next week. 

 MS. BEACH: Okay, thank you. 

 DR. WORTHINGTON: For the record, 

it was by the end of next week. 

 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Worthington 

has made a solemn vow to have this ready by 

the end of next week, plus or minus a little. 
159 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 We understand it will happen very soon. 

 Are there any comments on the 

motion? Any discussion on the motion or are 

you ready to vote on the motion? And we are 

voting on both documents, if anyone wishes to 

divide the motion, we can do that. Otherwise, 

it will remain as one motion. 

 Apparently not. I suggest then we 

have a role call vote. We can just go around 

the table. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Lockey suggested 

that I randomize my role call votes for tally. 

 I can do it just very easily the way I am set 

up here. So, I shall do so. 

 So, Mr. Schofield? 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: And Mr. Presley? 

 MR. PRESLEY: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Ms. Munn? 

 MS. MUNN: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Melius? 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes. 
160 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Gibson? 

 MR. GIBSON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Ms. Beach? 

 MS. BEACH: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Clawson? 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Lockey? 

 DR. LOCKEY: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Griffon? 

 MR. GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Roessler? 

 DR. ROESSLER: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: And Dr. Ziemer? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I will vote yes, 

but if that is randomized, why am I at the 

end? 

 (Laughter.) 

 MR. KATZ: You are the exception. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. 

 MR. KATZ: Oh, Dr. Poston. Sorry. 

 So you weren't. 

 DR. POSTON: I'm tempted to vote no 
161 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

but yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, it truly is 

randomized. I withdraw my comment. 

 MS. BEACH: Now I know why he 

wanted to mix that up. 

 MR. KATZ: I'll go back to the 

original plan. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you. 

 We are going to move on to the next -- 

 DR. MELIUS: Can I raise another 

issue that is related to this? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes. 

 DR. MELIUS: That is, I think, and 

I have raised this before and no one seems to 

pay attention but that is the issue that we 

seem to be getting involved in as part of our 

evaluation of SEC's evaluations that seem to 

be getting into areas where there are some 

difficult security issues. 

 The site here in Amarillo, I think, 

is probably the prime example but I think 

there are others also. And I am concerned and 
162 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

confused by what our procedure is going to be 

to deal with some of these issues. 

 I am told we are not allowed to 

have Work Group meetings to deal with some of 

these secure issues, that we have individuals 

reviewing this information. And I have 

serious questions how we are ever going to be 

able to get these to a vote of the Board, 

given some of the limitations on sharing the 

information, as well as how we are going to 

maintain our process of providing public 

discussion and public access to the basis for 

our determinations. 

 Now, this issue has been around for 

years. We sort of got around it at the Iowa 

site. But I think that, unless we start to 

develop a procedure, a policy for dealing with 

this, we are going to be tying up these sites 

for a significant period of time. There is 

already enough delays simply just due to some 

of the clearance issues of getting onsite to 

access some of this information, let alone how 
163 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

we are going to discuss some of it in Board 

meetings and documents and so forth. 

 And I am just concerned that we 

need to come to grips with this in some way. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you for the 

comment. What I am going to do is put that on 

our Board working session for tomorrow so we 

can discuss it at some length and maybe, at 

least, plan a path forward. 

 I think it is a thorny issue. And 

as you say, it came up at Iowa. We had kind 

of a dilemma there for a while. It could very 

well arise again. 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay. I don't have 

any problems with postponing the discussion 

until tomorrow but I think it is important 

that the Department of Energy be aware of this 

issue. And I wasn't sure if the Department of 

Energy was going to be here tomorrow. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well I believe 

that at least Gina and Greg will both be here. 

 So, we can certainly have the discussion and 
164 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

get some ideas on how we might proceed. I am 

not sure it is something -- we may have to 

have a Work Group address this even and come 

up with some brainstorming ideas. 

 DR. MELIUS: I mean, as I have said 

before when we have talked about the security 

issues, it seems to me in some of these 

situations, we may be better off just not 

trying to go through our normal review 

procedures, given some of the potential 

security issues that may arise just from our 

normal way that we do business, even trying to 

be careful about how we handle some of this 

information and how we make the public -- but 

again, it would for the discussion tomorrow 

and I think there would be some examples when 

we talk about some of the specific sites and 

the specific Work Groups but I think we do 

need to deal with it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. Any 

other brief comments on that? The reason I 

want to push it to tomorrow is that we have 
165 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

some times certain that we have to deal with 

here. 

 Brad, did you have -- 

 MR. CLAWSON: No, I am just 

standing up. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you. 

 Okay, next on our agenda is 

Standard Oil Development Company of New 

Jersey, an SEC petition. This is an 83.13 

petition. LaVon Rutherford is going to 

present the NIOSH evaluation report. 

 We may have a petitioner on the 

line and perhaps we should check to see if 

they are. Can we just get a yes or no whether 

-- 

 MR. GEDDES: Yes, this is Richard 

Geddes. I am the petitioner. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you and 

stand by and we will give you an opportunity 

to comment after we hear from Mr. Rutherford. 

 MR. GEDDES: Okay. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Hello? I think we 
166 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

may have to wait until it warms up a little. 

Ah, here it comes. 

 All right, I am LaVon Rutherford. 

I am the Special Exposure Cohort Health 

Physics Team Leader for NIOSH. And I am going 

to talk about Standard Oil. 

 We received this petition on 

September 12th of this year. Actually of 

2008. I don't know how that could have been 

of this year. 

 The petitioner-proposed classes: 

all employees who worked in any area at 

Standard Oil from August 13, 1942 through 

December 31st of 1963. 

 The petition was qualified for 

evaluation on November 5th of 2008 and it was 

qualified based on the lack of personnel 

monitoring or area monitoring data. 

 We issued our evaluation report on 

March 24th and we have one claim, who is the 

petitioner for this site. We have one claim 

for Standard Oil. 
167 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 A little background about the site. 

 We have two facilities. We have the Bayway 

Refinery and the Linden. Currently, Bayway is 

the Exxon Chemical Company and Linden 

Laboratories is presently Exxon Research and 

Engineering. 

 Some more background. Standard Oil 

is classified as an Atomic Weapon Employer for 

the covered operational period 1942 through 

1945 and a residual period that is currently 

listed as 1946 through 2006. However, that 

residual period is under evaluation right now 

and that end date will likely be adjusted. 

 In our search in understanding and 

trying to get some information about the 

standard oil site, we sent a letter to the 

Office of Legacy Management asking if they had 

information to support, 1) clarification of do 

we have two facilities, two separate 

facilities or are both facilities considered 

part of the Standard Oil site, the Bayway and 

the Linden Laboratories; and do you have any 
168 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

additional information they could provide us, 

actual locations where the radiological work 

occurred. 

 We did get a response from Legacy 

Management. They could not provide us with 

exact locations of where the work occurred at 

the site. They did -- recently, we received a 

letter concurring with us that they believed 

that the Linden facilities and the Bayway 

facility are actually both together, part of 

the covered facility under Standard Oil. 

 Typically, as everyone knows, when 

we get a petition in, there are a number of 

places that we go to look for data to try to 

resolve any issues that we have for the site. 

We went to our current site profiles, 

Technical Information Bulletins, Procedures. 

We looked at a FUSRAP report, interviews in a 

FUSRAP report and we also talked to the 

Standard Oil Development Company employees. 

Actually we didn't. That was done during the 

FUSRAP process itself. NIOSH Site Research 
169 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Database and data captures. 

 We went through the Office of 

Legacy Management, which I mentioned earlier, 

Nuclear Regulatory Commission; current owners 

and operators of the site; New Jersey 

Department of Environmental Radiation 

Programs; Department of Health and Human 

Services; and National Archives. We also went 

to Washington State University, which many of 

you know that we do get a lot of good 

documentation from. We do DOE Opennet with 

OSTI database, internet searches, the CEDR 

database, which is the Comprehensive 

Epidemiological Data Resource, Hanford DDR 

System, National Academy of Press. So you can 

see that we have actually built this approach 

for doing our data capture and there are a lot 

of places that we go to look for information 

about the site. 

 An overview of the actual claims is 

pretty simple. We have one claim and it meets 

the class definition. So, it is covered under 
170 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the operational period at Standard Oil. And 

we did complete a dose reconstruction for this 

site. We have no internal or external 

monitoring data. 

 A little bit about the operations 

that occurred at Standard Oil. Standard Oil 

with this 1942 to 1945 time period was the 

classic period when we were trying to produce 

the atomic bomb. A number of companies, if 

you remember my presentation on Westinghouse 

Atomic Power Development, there were a number 

of companies involved at that time working 

with the MED and the Office of Scientific 

Research and Development to try to come up 

with a good approach for uranium enrichment; 

Standard Oil was one of those sites. They 

actually worked on a centrifuge process, a 

uranium gas centrifuge process. If you 

remember there were roughly four different 

approaches they were looking at at that time. 

They looked at the gaseous diffusion, they 

looked at the calutron operation, the ionic 
171 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

centrifuge and then this uranium gas 

centrifuge, which ultimately they focused at 

K-25 on the gaseous diffusion. 

 They also did experiments and 

studies of uranium with production of uranium 

through chemical reduction processes. And 

they also were involved in several other 

research and development activities. 

 We found little documentation that 

provides detailed process information. This 

is very consistent with Westinghouse Atomic 

Power Development. The uranium enrichment 

process, the gas centrifuge process, we found 

very little information on that. We also lack 

information and record holdings that specify 

exact locations of buildings or type of 

personnel involved in the work. 

 Areas were generally referred to as 

the Bayway facility or the ESSO Lab in 

documentation. 

 Again, we have limited, also we 

have limited documentation that details the 
172 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

amount of source material involved in the 

studies and experiments. Very little 

information at all on the pilot operations 

with uranium enrichment. We do have some 

information that indicates UF6 and UO3 were 

sent to the site in 1942, 43, and 44. And 

although other uranium compounds were 

mentioned in a few documents, no specific 

quantities were specified. 

 Other records, including a 

Manhattan Engineering District letter from 

1945, indicate that the plant was dismantled 

and decontaminated. Basically at the end of 

operations of the pilot operations at the end 

of 1944 period, 44 to 45, they had pretty much 

focused on gaseous diffusion and all work 

associated with the pilot operations with the 

centrifuge were shut down and indications are 

again that the plant was dismantled and 

decontaminated. 

 We have FUSRAP documentation that 

concludes that the facility at Bayway probably 
173 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

has been torn down and the material remaining 

may have been stored for some period at a 

location leased by OSRD, which is consistent 

with other documentation that we have. 

 Worker interviews, we did review 

the CATI but there was one CATI involved here 

and documentation provided by that petitioner 

as well, which was some very good information. 

 We also contacted representatives 

from the existing companies to see if they 

could identify personnel that we could 

interview at the site. One, they had no 

records holding concerning the activities and 

they were basically under the impression that 

the individuals involved in the operations at 

that time were senior personnel that were no 

longer around. 

 And that was consistent as well 

with the FUSRAP work. The FUSRAP did identify 

two individuals that they were able to 

interview, two long-time employees, one former 

employee who they interviewed, who basically 
174 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

indicated the same thing, that workers 

involved in that operation were senior 

engineers and such and that those individuals 

were no longer around. 

 Again, we lack information in our 

record holdings that identify the exact 

locations of any of the work that occurred at 

the site. And as I had mentioned earlier, we 

did contact the Office of Legacy Management 

requesting if they had any additional 

information, which they could not provide us. 

 Our internal exposure potential; 

inhalation and ingestion from operations 

involving uranium enrichment, as well as the 

experimental work that occurred at the site 

and external exposures exist from basically 

the same sources. 

 Again, we have no internal or 

external monitoring data for the site, nor do 

we have any specific details of any medical xray information required. 

 Our internal dose reconstruction, 
175 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

we found insufficient information to draw a 

conclusion regarding a potential magnitude of 

the internal doses involved with the exposure 

to uranium enrichment, as well as the other 

uranium work that was involved. 

 External exposures, we are in the 

same position; insufficient data to actually 

provide a potential magnitude of the external 

exposures as well. 

 We do feel we could reconstruct the 

medical dose using existing procedures that we 

have. And as well, if personnel monitoring 

data were uncovered at a later point, we would 

use that personnel monitoring data for any 

future claims. 

 Our feasibility, the early work at 

Standard Oil Development Company, included the 

unique enrichment operations, with the gaseous 

centrifuge would not allow us to use surrogate 

data. The surrogate data would typically be 

from another enrichment facility like that 

one. There was no enrichment facility like 
176 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that facility at the time. This is consistent 

with our approach with the calutron's early 

years at Y-12, Westinghouse Atomic Power 

Development, the Thermal Diffusion Plant S-50, 

all of those early uranium enrichment works, 

we have concluded this is a unique operation. 

 So our feasibility determination 

was it is not feasible, internal or external 

exposures. However, we can reconstruct 

medical x-rays. 

 We also determined that the workers 

in the class may have accumulated chronic 

radiation exposures through intakes of 

radionuclides and direct exposure to 

radioactive materials. Subsequently, we feel 

their health was endangered. 

 Our proposed class is all AWE 

employees who worked at Standard Oil 

Development from August 13, 1942 through 

December 31, 1945. And the standard language 

after that. 

 Again, our recommendation is that 
177 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

it is not feasible and that health was 

endangered for that time period. There was a 

residual. As you know, we qualified the 

petition up to 1963. We have not determined 

or come up with a feasibility finding for that 

residual period because right now we are 

uncertain as to the ending date of the 

residual contamination period. We do have a 

draft residual contamination report that is 

working its way through the system and that 

report does not have the current end date that 

is covered by the -- that we have of 2006. 

 And the only claimant we have right 

now is the petitioner and that petitioner is 

covered by the proposed class. 

 We do know that the company 

continued to provide consulting for AEC as 

late as 1953. We know that the -- but based 

on all of the documentation we have reviewed 

and information available, it was consulting 

information for other sites. We had no 

indications of any additional work that 
178 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

occurred at the site and the Department of 

Energy has stuck with that position as well. 

 So, we will continue. We will 

basically prioritize our evaluation on the 

residual period. Once the actual end date is 

defined in the residual contamination report, 

we will continue to evaluate the feasibility 

for the residual contamination period and when 

we get some additional claims for that period 

as well. So, that is why we decided to 

reserve that residual contamination period. 

 And that is it. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you, LaVon. 

 

 Ms. Beach, question? 

 MS. BEACH: LaVon, did you say, I 

might have missed it, are there any claims for 

the residual period at this time? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: No, there is not, 

only the existing claimant that we have who is 

covered under the operational period. 

 MS. BEACH: I understand that. And 
179 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

then have you done any worker outreach in that 

area? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: At this point, 

there has been no additional worker outreach 

at this site. We have talked internally that 

that may occur with our contractor. 

 MS. BEACH: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, let's hear 

from the petitioner who is on the line. 

 MR. GEDDES: Well, you know, this 

of course occurred before I was born. So I 

can't say that I could add much. But I 

understand the work has been done and 

appreciate it and I certainly agree with it. 

That is obviously the basis of my petition but 

I didn't believe there was any valid data to 

support a dose reconstruction. And it really, 

on that basis, it qualified for the SEC. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And the 

petitioner probably is not in a position to 

answer this but I will ask it anyway. Did you 

know of additional individuals that worked at 
180 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that time, or know of them? I assume some 

search has been made to find out if there were 

other individuals. And Mr. Rutherford is 

shaking his head. 

 MR. GEDDES: No because the reason, 

you know, your question about outreach, well 

you know, it doesn't surprise that I am the 

only petitioner in this case because I knew 

about this program, not from outreach at 

Standard Oil, but because I am a DOE 

contractor. And I also knew, you know, I 

noticed that Standard Oil was an AWE employer 

and I also knew that my father had done what 

he called secret defense work. And back in 

the 1950s, I was a child. He died when I was 

15. So, but in those days, they didn't talk 

much about it, other than the fact he said he 

was doing some secret defense work. 

 So, it doesn't -- I put it together 

the fact that, oh, that was an AWE employer 

and that he was doing defense work, you know, 

later on. And I did it through my DOE 
181 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

involvement rather than through any outreach 

involving Standard Oil. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you. 

 Mr. Presley, did you have a 

comment? 

 MR. PRESLEY: No, I want to make a 

motion. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Any other 

general questions, Board Members, either for 

the petitioner or for NIOSH? 

 If not, a motion would be in order. 

 Mr. Presley. 

 MR. PRESLEY: I would like to make 

a motion that we accept this petition as 

stated August 13, 1942 through 1945, whatever 

that date is. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay the motion 

basically then would be to accept the 

recommendation of NIOSH and to recommend to 

the Secretary that a class be added for this 

Standard Oil group, which currently exists as 

one individual but could expand possibly. 
182 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 And is there a second to the 

motion? And Dr. Poston has seconded it. We 

will have tomorrow, if the motion passes, some 

official wording for the Board to look at but 

-- 

 DR. MELIUS: Chairman, if I might, 

I can offer some official wording. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We can do that 

now and we have time to do that. 

 DR. MELIUS: We can wait until 

tomorrow. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No, we will do it 

now if the wording is ready. And at this 

point, I will double check. The caveat was 

that the end date could change. Is that not 

correct? And we would understand that -- 

 DR. MELIUS: Actually, I have a 

sentence that covers that. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Covers that. 

 DR. MELIUS: The end date issue 

really is only for the residual period. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: They are clearly 
183 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

distinct, separate. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, so that 

would be separate. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, so I think I got 

that clear. 

 MR. PRESLEY: It would be a second 

SEC. Is that correct? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: LaVon, can you 

answer that? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: No, I don't want 

to say there would be a second SEC because our 

feasibility, we did not ever come out with a 

feasibility determination. We will issue 

another feasibility determination with the 

true end date that is defined for the residual 

period. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, so the 

residual period is not before us in any event 

right now. But you have another sentence that 

we will throw that in. 

 And then also we want to make sure, 

and we will before the meeting is over, that 
184 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the class definition, it is not a difficult 

one since it is one person, but a class 

definition in a general sense for Department 

of Labor suits their needs as far as 

administering it. It is my understanding that 

it does. 

 LaVon? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: The class 

definition was provided to the Department of 

Labor in a draft format to ensure that they 

could administer it and we did get formal 

correspondence that they could. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. Then 

here now is the formal wording of the Presley 

motion. 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay. The friendly 

amendment to the Presley motion. 

 The Board recommends that the 

following letter be transmitted to the 

Secretary of Health and Human Services within 

21 days. Should the Chair become aware of any 

issues that in his judgment would preclude the 
185 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

transmittal of this letter within that time 

period, the Board requests that he promptly 

inform the Board of the delay, and the reasons 

for this delay, and that he immediately works 

with NIOSH to schedule an emergency meeting of 

the Board to discuss this issue. 

 The Advisory Board on Radiation 

Worker Health, the Board, has evaluated SEC 

petition 00129 concerning workers at the 

Standard Oil Development Company in Linden, 

New Jersey, under the statutory requirements 

established by EEOICPA incorporated into 42 

C.F.R. Section 83.13 and 42 C.F.R. Section 

8314. 

 The Board respectfully recommends 

Special Exposure Cohort status be accorded to 

all atomic weapons employer employees who 

worked at the Standard Oil Development Company 

in Linden, New Jersey, from August 13, 1942 

through December 31, 1945 for a number of 

workdays aggregating at least 250 workdays 

occurring either solely under this employment 
186 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

or in combination with workdays within the 

parameters established for one or more other 

classes of employees in the SEC. The Board 

notes that although NIOSH found that they were 

unable to completely reconstruct radiation 

doses for those employees, believe that they 

are able to reconstruct the occupational 

medical dose. 

 This recommendation is based on the 

following factors. Standard Oil Development 

Company was involved in the early development 

work related to uranium enrichment for the 

manufacture of atomic weapons. 

 Number two, NIOSH was unable to 

locate sufficient monitoring data, information 

on operations at the site, and source term 

information at the site in order to be able to 

complete accurate individual dose 

reconstructions for the potential internal and 

external radiation exposures to which these 

workers may have been subjected. The Board 

concurs with this conclusion. 
187 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Three, NIOSH determined that health 

may have been endangered for the workers 

exposed to radiation at this facility during 

the time period in question. The Board also 

concurs with this determination. Based on 

these considerations and the discussions held 

at our May 12th Advisory Board meeting in 

Amarillo, Texas, the Board recommends that 

this Special Exposure Cohort petition be 

granted. 

 The Board notes that NIOSH is 

continuing to evaluate information on 

potential exposures during the residual 

contamination period from 1946 to 2006 and 

will make a recommendation regarding this time 

period some time in the future. 

 We enclose this documentation from 

the Board meeting where this Special Exposure 

Cohort class was discussed. The documentation 

includes transcripts of deliberation, copies 

of the petition, the NIOSH review thereof, and 

related documents distributed by NIOSH. If 
188 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

any of these items are unavailable at this 

time, they will follow shortly. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. Now, 

if -- 

 DR. MELIUS: I have actually one 

correction to that because I thought about it 

later. Actually, I think it is only an 83.13. 

 Correct? Not an 83.14. Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That is correct. 

 DR. MELIUS: So, I will strike 

83.14. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Friendly 

amendment to the friendly amendment. 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, by the friendly 

amender. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Are there any 

questions or discussion now on the motion? If 

not, we will proceed to vote following Mr. 

Katz's randomized procedure. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, beware. 

 Mr. Schofield? 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Yes. 
189 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Roessler? 

 DR. ROESSLER: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Presley? 

 MR. PRESLEY: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Poston? 

 DR. POSTON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Ms. Munn? 

 MS. MUNN: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Melius? 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Lockey? 

 DR. LOCKEY: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Griffon? 

 MR. GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Gibson? 

 MR. GIBSON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Clawson? 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Ms. Beach? 

 MS. BEACH: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Ziemer? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes. Have you 
190 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

got them all? 

 DR. MELIUS: Discrimination against 

the lower parts of the alphabet. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The motion 

carries, nonetheless. 

 Mr. Clawson? 

 MR. CLAWSON: I just had one 

question. I was just -- I didn't know when to 

bring this in. I wanted to get the amendment 

out of the way. But where there hasn't been 

any worker outreach and we heard from the 

petitioner how he did find it. I am wondering 

if maybe we need to turn this over to the 

Worker Outreach Group to kind of follow up on, 

to ensure that we have something there. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well -- 

 MR. GEDDES: Yes, well you know, 

the other comment I would make though, is 

recognize that this was 70 years ago. And as 

you heard the speaker there, most of these 

folks were senior engineers. It is unlikely 

that many of them are still alive. 
191 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. CLAWSON: That is correct but 

they may have some children, too. 

 MR. GEDDES: They may have. I 

think that -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, certainly, 

Mike, you are aware of the problem. It is not 

clear to me exactly what can be done. I 

think, LaVon, you have tried to identify 

additional workers. I would suggest that if 

NIOSH has some ideas that the Board can assist 

with, that would be certainly useful. 

 I don't know if Department of Labor 

or Jeff, if any of your folks have any 

insights as to how that could occur but 

obviously, this is almost an accidental, 

coincidental situation where the son happens 

to be working for the Department of Energy and 

learned of the program. 

 Larry, did you have some comments 

in this regard? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, I think I speak 

for Jeff, but DOL typically does some type of 
192 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

communication about a class that has been 

designated. So that is their responsibility 

for outreach in this regard. NIOSH has no 

responsibility -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right, I 

understand. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: -- to outreach, other 

than what we have done trying to find workers 

who were there who could tell us more about 

what happened. We certainly do assist DOL in 

any outreach efforts that they undertake. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Right. And Jeff 

is approaching the mic as well. 

 MR. KOTSCH: The question was about 

outreach, I guess? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well at this 

particular site, there is one petitioner. 

That petitioner only learned almost 

coincidentally that he was eligible to make a 

claim because he was a DOE worker and knew of 

the program. The question was, is there any 

way to identify others who might be eligible, 
193 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

taking into consideration that this is 70 

years ago, number one. Number two, that 

people who worked on the project were 

identified as senior people at that time. And 

beyond that, you know, is it feasible at all 

to do any kind of follow-up to try to identify 

at least some eligible people? 

 MR. KOTSCH: Yes, that I don't 

know. I will take that back with me. I am 

not sure. I know they do, they will attempt 

to do some kind of outreach. But usually when 

it is a limited number of people, they do it 

by announcing in the media or something. But 

I know they will usually try to publish 

something in that area as to the fact that 

there is a designated class. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Jim? 

 DR. MELIUS: There is a corporation 

here that may very well have some records and 

outreach. Parts of that operation, I think, 

have moved to Texas. But others may still be 

in the area. The industrial facility, some of 
194 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

them are still operational, I believe. 

 There is an active union, certainly 

for the blue-collar workforce there. So, I 

would not be as pessimistic and I would expect 

that yes, it is a long time ago but there are 

also family members still, I suspect, many of 

them still living in that area. And so I 

mean, I think there certainly is some ability 

that -- and I don't know if there is any sort 

of group of former workers or former people 

there who lead or you could network with. 

 So, I think it is worth some 

effort. 

 MR. KOTSCH: Yes, I think so. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And in fact, 

perhaps it could be at least announced in 

some, if there is a corporate news -- 

 DR. MELIUS: Retiree letter. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Letter or some 

site -- 

 DR. MELIUS: Retiree newsletter. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- of some sort, 
195 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

perhaps. 

 MR. KOTSCH: Yes, I think they do 

those, actually. So I will make sure. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We'll sort of ask 

Labor to think about follow-up on that. 

 MR. KOTSCH: Sure. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. 

 Our next item on the agenda is a 

time certain at 3:00. We do have a break 

scheduled. Are there any real short tings we 

can do just before we take the break? 

 We will go ahead and take the break 

and you will have a little bit more time 

scheduled here but be back here promptly so 

that we can do the Blockson item right at 

3:00. 

(Whereupon, the above-entitled meeting went 

off the record at 2:31 p.m. resumed 

at 2:59 p.m.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We are ready to 

reconvene. 

 Before we take up our next item on 
196 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the agenda, Larry Elliott has asked to have 

the floor briefly to clarify some remarks 

relating to worker outreach. Larry. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Thank you. I 

appreciate this opportunity. I just want to 

make sure that my comments before were not 

misunderstood. 

 I said that NIOSH is not in the 

business of outreach to recruit claims is what 

I mean. The Department of Labor has that. 

That doesn't necessarily mean that NIOSH 

doesn't have an outreach component. We 

certainly do, as the working group on outreach 

knows and understands. 

 Our outreach efforts in the case of 

the Standard Oil situation was to have ATL, 

our contractor, identify unionized labor 

groups that we could approach. They talked 

with a number of folks. They did a number of 

interviews with older people. They had 

contacts with the Teamsters. These are the 

kind of outreach efforts that we do trying to 
197 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

develop our understanding and identify 

information that is relevant to the needs to 

fulfill our responsibilities. 

 So that is our outreach component. 

 I didn't want to have somebody misinterpret 

what I said as meaning that NIOSH has no 

outreach interests whatsoever. We just have 

to recognize that DOL primarily has the lead 

to recruit claims and NIOSH's outreach effort 

is designed around soliciting more information 

for our purposes of doing dose reconstruction 

or evaluating a class. 

 Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you, Larry, 

for that clarification. 

 Now we are ready to move on to the 

Blockson SEC petition. 

 MS. PINCHETTI: Hello? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Let me preface 

this -- well first of all, let's see if we 

have any petitioners on the line. Are any of 

the Blockson petitioners on the line that wish 
198 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to identify themselves? 

 MS. PINCHETTI: Yes, Kathy 

Pinchetti is here. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you, Kathy. 

 Anyone else? 

 Okay, we will have an opportunity 

to hear from you shortly, Kathy, and we will 

call on you at that point. Let me remind the 

Board just for background purposes, the 

Blockson petition has been before us for quite 

some period of time. And just as a reminder, 

it had sort of begun to focus on a couple of 

issues, one of which had been the, I guess you 

would say the pedigree of the bioassay data, 

as well as a radon Model, which was developed 

and which was under discussion. 

 That radon Model, I am looking back 

at the record here, was the discussion of a 

report last April. The Work Group met in 

June, on June 5th and again June 24th and 25th 

to discuss a resolution of the radon issue and 

other outstanding items. 
199 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 The Advisory Board deliberated in 

June of 2008, discussed the radon Model. 

There was a white paper that SC&A had produced 

that came before us. SC&A issued a draft 

report evaluating radon levels in Building 40 

at Blockson. And that report came to us in 

August of 2008. 

 The Work Group met again in October 

2008, to discuss the resolution of the radon 

issue and perhaps some related things. There 

was a technical call between NIOSH and SC&A in 

December of 2008 and then a Work Group 

conference call later in December, dealing 

again with the radon issue. 

 The discussion came back -- well 

again, there was a Work Group teleconference 

in January of this year to discuss resolution 

of issues. And then that all came back to the 

Board. 

 We, at our last meeting, discussed 

it further and we came to the -- I will call 

it a conclusion -- that the Work Group itself 
200 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

had done as much as it could do that the 

issues had to be resolved at the Board level, 

particularly the radon issue. There wasn't 

any point in having the Work Group struggle 

with it and then report back to us and sort of 

have to repeat everything in the main Board 

meeting, particularly since a number of Board 

Members themselves were interested and 

concerned about how to handle radon issues at 

Blockson. 

 So, it now is at the Board level. 

I mean, the Work Group is at the point where 

they were not involved in this latest round. 

We had asked that NIOSH come to us and I 

believe we are going to start with that. Jim 

Neton will make a presentation and this, 

again, I believe, deals with the so-called 

radon model. And then will have the 

opportunity to discuss that. We will also 

hear from the petitioners. And then we will 

have to determine whether or not the Board is 

ready to proceed from that point. 
201 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 So, let's begin with Dr. Neton. 

And I am looking for Jim. Oh, there. 

 DR. NETON: I am poised and ready 

to go. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: He is so rapid in 

his response, he is already at the mic. Thank 

you, Dr. Neton. 

 DR. NETON: Thank you, Dr. Ziemer. 

 It is my pleasure to talk about the 

Radon Exposure Model that NIOSH is using at 

Blockson Chemical. I am a little bit wary. I 

have to talk about some mathematics and some 

differential equations after lunch. So I 

hopefully I can keep everyone alert and 

conscious during my presentation. 

 Thank you for setting it up, Dr. 

Ziemer, that takes care of a good part of my 

five-minute preamble. 

 If you recall, Blockson, we have 

only one piece really of radon data measured 

at Blockson back in 1982 time frame or such. 

So, we have had to rely substantially on a 
202 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

source term model which is in accordance with 

our regulations. But let's back up just a 

little bit and talk about Blockson and why 

radon is really even considered here. 

 This is sort of a paraphrased 

excerpt off of a DOE web site that you saw 

Greg Lewis show you this morning. I just took 

and rearranged some of the facts. But the 

Blockson facility description is Building 55 

and related activities. It is covered because 

it was a DOE contract between 1951 and '62 and 

there is also a residual radiation component 

from '62 forward through July of 2006. 

 You recall that Blockson Chemical 

actually was a phosphate plant. They made 

phosphate products, including things that went 

into detergent, fertilizers, that sort of 

thing. And the AEC, during this time period, 

recruited a few phosphate manufacturers to try 

to extract some of the uranium that was there 

naturally in the ore that entered the 

phosphate plants. 
203 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 So the AEC did contract with 

Blockson to recover some of the uranium but 

the work was done in a single stand-alone 

building on the site. 

 But as it says here, this listing 

is also intended, that is the DOE listing, to 

cover the AEC funded laboratory, the pilot 

plant and oxidation process which also 

occurred at Blockson and was related to work 

on Building 55. 

 I think this little diagram I have 

here helps explain the situation a little 

better. You know, phosphate rock would come 

in from Florida and be ground up or stored 

there in calcine and enter Building 40 where 

you would precipitate out phosphogypsum which 

would be the waste piles of the residue of the 

process and the phosphoric acid process. 

 But before that happened, the 

material would enter Building 40, be dissolved 

in sulfuric acid and create what we will call 

a phosphate liquor that went to a different 
204 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

building. Building 55 was removed from 

Building 40 by some distance. I have 

forgotten the exact distance, but it is 

somewhere in the order of a thousand feet or 

something like that. 

 Once the uranium processing 

activity occurred and they extracted it, the 

liquor would be pumped back into Building 40 

and then rest, the remaining phosphate 

production process would ensue. So, Building 

55 is covered. 

 Remember I said and related 

activities. There was a couple of process 

step changes that were required at Blockson 

Chemical to optimize the uranium recovery. 

That was, in Building 40, to add an oxidizer 

to the process to essentially keep the uranium 

in solution during the acid digestion. 

 And a second process change that 

occurred was just outside of Building 40, they 

had a calcining process. That is nothing more 

than just heating the phosphate ore to a high 
205 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

temperature: 1400 to 1600 degrees Fahrenheit 

to drive off the moisture and any organic 

materials that might have been present. In 

fact, it also drove off some of the radon, 

which we will talk about a little bit later. 

 So this is the process in a 

nutshell. The radon is covered here because 

of that process step change they made here. 

So even though it is not related to the 

uranium production exactly, all activities 

during the covered period, all radiation that 

occurred in that building is covered exposure 

now, which brings into play not only the 

uranium operation in Building 55 but any 

radiation source term that existed in Building 

40 during the period. That would include all 

the progeny of uranium. 

 So a little bit about the 

properties of phosphate rock that make this an 

interesting radiological exercise. Phosphate 

ore or rock contains elevated levels of 

uranium and progeny. By whatever geochemical 
206 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

processes that occur in that area of Florida, 

the uranium would be concentrated up to about 

40 picocuries per gram. That is about 40 

times higher than what is naturally present in 

the earth's crust. Most people's yards and 

houses have about one picocurie per gram of 

uranium naturally there. So this is somewhat, 

I don't want to use the word enriched because 

that might be is interpreted but slightly 

elevated above natural background. 

 It is in approximate equilibrium -- 

uranium progeny are in approximate equilibrium 

all the way down the uranium decay series. 

One of those progeny, of course, is radon. 

radon-222 I will be speaking of specifically 

today. When I say radon, I mean radon-222. 

 radon will emanate from the rock 

and create a radon gas and progeny exposure 

problem. The emanation of the rock, though, 

is dependent upon the moisture content of the 

rock. There are two ways that the radon 

leaves from the rock. One is a dry rock 
207 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

emanation coefficient. And by the way these 

are backwards. It is 0.1 for dry rock and 0.3 

for wet rock. 

 So, what happens is, when the 

moisture is there, the radon enters the 

moisture space and is more easily eliminated, 

resulting in about a 30 percent elimination 

versus ten percent for the dry material. 

 The thorium natural decay series is 

also there but in much, much lower levels. It 

is estimated it is about three percent of the 

uranium levels. And in fact, radon-220, also 

called thoron is not really an exposure issue 

here. 

 I just put this diagram up to 

remind everyone about the natural uranium 

decay series. You start with uranium and go 

through a series of progeny all the way 

through radium-226, which ultimately gives 

rise to the gas. So every time radium-226 

decays, you create one atom of radon-222. And 

then these are the progeny that deliver the 
208 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

dose. The radon itself delivers very little 

dose. It is a noble gas. It has no sink in 

the body. But it is the daughter progeny that 

are generated that deposit in the upper 

airways of the lung that are definitely known 

to cause lung cancer. 

 So given that, what is the Blockson 

source term? I mean, what do we know about 

the processing and handling of material at 

Blockson. What we know from the contracts 

that the processing rate of the phosphate rock 

through the plant during the covered period 

was about 6,000 tons per week. And converting 

that to kilograms gives you nine and a half, 

9.45 kilograms per second entering the plant. 

 The rock was known to contain pretty 

precisely at 1,460 becquerels per kilogram 

uranium in equilibrium. That is equal to that 

40 picocuries per gram that I talked about. 

 So, you have 6,000 tons coming into 

the plant, 1,460 becquerels per kilogram 

uranium, which means there is also 1,460 
209 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

becquerels of radium coming into the plant 

that is going to give off radon gas, 

eventually. 

 That is the next slide. You have 

the amount of radium entering the building was 

13,800 becquerels per second or 373 nanocuries 

per second for those of you who prefer the 

older units. 

 Now, not all of the radon that 

entered the building, not all that enters the 

building is released into the atmosphere. The 

amount that was released is dependent on the 

form of the material. 

 So, the challenge here is to 

develop a radon exposure model using the known 

input and removal rates. The interesting 

thing about radon is that it is a noble gas so 

it has no natural sinks. It will, just once 

it is generated, distribute itself fairly 

uniformly in any environment that it occupies. 

 So for the input term here, we have 

the emanation of the radon from the dry ore 
210 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that is in the building. We also have this 

process of the release from the digester 

tanks. Remember I said the ore came into the 

building was dissolved in sulfuric acid. That 

would precipitate out the radium, leave the 

uranium in solution. But when you precipitate 

out the radium, it would release potentially 

the radon gas from the digester tanks into the 

atmosphere. It turns out that it is going to 

be one of our biggest, is our biggest source 

term in this building. 

 And the removal of the radon is by 

two processes. One is the ventilation rate of 

the building. How many times does the air 

change over in the building per hour? And 

another process is radon is a noble gas, 

natural radioactive gas. So, it decays. It 

turns out the radioactive decay has a 3.8 day 

half-life. That is insignificant compared to 

the removal rate of the ventilation rate of 

the building. For all practical purposes, you 

can almost ignore it, although it is included 
211 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

in the model. 

 Now before I get too far into it, I 

would like to just start simply and then build 

up to the final model. And by the way, I 

think the Board is well aware of this, this 

model was developed as part of SC&A's review 

of the Blockson situation, radon at Blockson 

chemical, although it evolved over a series of 

different meetings with some input from NIOSH 

in the very beginning. The final model was 

developed by SC&A. And Dr. Bob Anigstein, in 

particular, was instrumental, the key person 

in putting this together and I would like to 

give them credit. That is not to say, though, 

that NIOSH has not thoroughly reviewed this 

model and we have also commissioned an 

independent expert review by Dr. Naomi Harley, 

who is an internationally recognized expert in 

radon modeling and dosimetry. And she is 

also, with some exceptions to the input 

parameters, was in agreement with the basic 

framework of this model. 
212 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 But let's start off simply and talk 

about a single compartmental model. And this 

is where we are getting a little bit of 

mathematics. The change in the quantity of 

any amount of material with respect to time 

can be expressed as some input, the term P, 

how much is coming in, minus a removal term 

which is expressed as lambda Q. That is the 

quantity of material times the removal rate. 

So, input minus removal. It is a very simple 

thing. It is very much like if you wanted to 

know how high the water in your bathtub would 

get if you turned the faucet on and had the 

drain open at the same time. It would 

eventually build up but at some point, it 

would stop and you would get half the tub 

would be full or three quarters, depending on 

how high the faucet was turned on and how big 

the drain was. That is really kind of what we 

are talking about here. We are blowing radon 

into the building and removing it through the 

exhaust coming out. So this is a very 
213 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

analogous situation. 

 The nice thing about this equation 

though is we know at equilibrium if you set 

the change and the quantity with respect to 

time equal to zero, it simplifies to a very 

nice equation, which is the input rate divided 

by the removal rate, the removal rate 

constant. 

 So, keep that in mind so when you 

see the next equation, it should be no 

surprise. It is a little more complicated but 

here you have the atoms, the change in the 

atoms per time of radon in the building. Here 

is your input term, RS. This is in kilograms 

per second times the becquerels per kilogram. 

 So you have becquerels per second of radium, 

which is also becquerels per second of radon 

entering the building minus this removal rate. 

 This big fancy term in here is really to 

adjust the amount of becquerels per second of 

radon that are coming into the building that 

become released. 
214 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 The first term here, if you 

multiply becquerels per second times this 

first term, gives you the number of becquerels 

or atoms of radon that are released from a 

pile of radon that is being generated in the 

building. 

 There is a certain amount of time 

where you are going to have radon, the ore 

come in. And it can't be immediately dumped 

into the digester tanks. You have to bring it 

in and there is a grinding operation that goes 

on. And so this allows for the in-growth of 

radon from that process. 

 The second term here is related to 

how much radon is released from the digester 

tanks, once it is dumped in there. And that 

is this term F. F is the fraction of radon 

evolving from the sulfuric acid tanks. 

 So, you dump the material in. The 

radium precipitates to the bottom. The radon 

gas is released. And in this model, we have 

allowed for the radon gas from the digester 
215 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

tanks to be directly emitted to the atmosphere 

inside the building. 

 The remainder of this term is an 

adjustment to account for the fact that not 

all the radon was is the ore when it came into 

the building. The last term here, epsilon sub 

W is the emanation coefficient of radon from 

wet rock. Remember I said about 30 percent of 

the radon leaves the rock? Well, by 

definition that means about 70 percent of the 

radon that is in the rock is in there when it 

comes in the building. So one minus epsilon 

sub W is 0.7. So, at best, you are only going 

to be able to release 70 percent of the radon 

that was present -- only 70 percent of the 

radon in the rock was there in equilibrium 

with the radium. 

 MR. GRIFFON: I thought it was ten 

percent. 

 DR. NETON: That is the dry. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Oh. 

 DR. NETON: The first term here is 
216 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

-- this epsilon sub D is the dry rock. One 

minus epsilon sub D is 0.9. That is the 

release fraction. 

 This term here is what was -- the 

ten percent that was released while it was 

sitting in the pile. This is the 90 percent 

that wasn't released that got dumped into the 

tank. And then this allows for buildup and 

this allows for some decay. And then you just 

subtract out the amount, you know, minus the 

atoms of radon with the removal, times the 

removal rate constant. 

 So it really is, this is sort of 

like having a bathtub with two spigots and two 

drains. It is a little more complicated in 

the first model but not substantially 

different. 

 So, that gives us the radon release 

of the building. And with some rearrangement 

of the equation and setting the equilibrium, 

setting the situation to be at equilibrium, 

you can solve for the concentration of the 
217 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

radon that would exist in the building at 

equilibrium. And so here we have C is the 

activity concentration of the radon in 

becquerels per cubic meter and to get a 

concentration, of course, you need to know the 

volume of the building. 

 Now, the situation is that we do 

not know all these terms with absolute 

certainty. So one could make a best estimate 

and plug in individuals values here and come 

out with a concentration of radon in the 

building. But what happens oftentimes in this 

program and this is, essentially, this is very 

much like how the IREP program works, we can 

do a probabilistic model to determine what is 

the distribution of concentrations that would 

exist, given our knowledge of the uncertainty 

of each of these parameters. 

 So here you have a table of the 

estimated uncertainty parameters or the 

parameters with their estimated uncertainties. 

So we knew the specific activity of the 
218 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

radium-226, 1,460 becquerels per kilogram. 

This was a normal distribution with a standard 

deviation of 287 becquerels per kilogram. The 

residence time of ore in the building was 

modeled to be a triangular distribution with a 

residence time anywhere from two to six hours. 

 Here is your dry emanation coefficient, 

0.113. It is a lognormal distribution so it 

has a geometric standard deviation of 1.5. 

The wet emanation coefficient is 0.3 with a 

geometric standard deviation of again about 

1.5. And here we have the evolution fraction 

of the sulfuric acid. This number should be 

0.7. I made an error. 

 In some discussions in the working 

group process, we all agreed that 0.7 would be 

the upper limit for the evolution of material. 

 So what we are saying is we really don't 

know. There is really no data on how much 

radon comes out of a sulfuric acid tank when 

you dump phosphate rock into it. But we know 

it is somewhere between zero and 70 percent. 
219 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

And that is the uncertain -- and it is a 

uniform distribution. Meaning, we are not 

giving any more credit for knowing anything 

more specific than it is somewhere between 

zero and 0.7. 

 Here we have the air exchange rate, 

which these two numbers correspond to one air 

exchange per hour to five air exchanges per 

hour and it is a uniform distribution. We are 

not making any a priori assumption about the 

distribution of the possibilities of 

ventilation rates, although my suspicion is 

that it is closer to this than that. Closer 

to one than five, that is. And the building 

volume is a uniform distribution anywhere from 

17,000 cubic meters to 24,000. That was taken 

off of some diagrams of the site and they were 

to scale, based on the FUSRAP work that was 

done and also with some input from some of the 

stakeholders. I think it was the claimant or 

so who had knowledge about the size of the 

building. And that is where these values came 
220 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

from. 

 So remember, we have that 

concentration equation there and we have 

uncertainty terms for all of these values. 

So, if we go and sample and run this 

calculation, I think we ran it 65,000 times 

and sampled each one of those distributions 

appropriately based on the weightings that you 

would get from our knowledge, and you run it 

65,000 times, you end up with a histogram of 

possible outcomes. And this histogram which 

appears to be somewhat log normally 

distributed, which is not unexpected, has a 

95th percentile of 17.6 picocuries radon per 

liter. Down here, probably the best estimate 

will be somewhere around four. But you can 

see that by allowing the probabilistic model 

to sample all of those distributions 

repetitively, we can now come up with an 

estimate of what the upper range of the radon 

values would be in the building. 

 We have just summarized here. We 
221 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

picked values off of this chart and plotted 

increments here just so we get a little better 

feel. And here is the 95th percentile at 17.6 

picocuries per liter. The 50th percentile, 

the median value, is around 5.0. And if you 

remember our original value that we proposed 

way back when when we did the Florida 

phosphate mine model was somewhere around 2.3 

or 2.4. So here even the 50th percentile is 

slightly higher but the 95th percentile is 

17.6. 

 So, how does that compare? We 

don't have a lot of data. We have no data 

during the 1950s from a phosphate plant that 

we can use to do a sort of a validation as a 

model. But we do have some more contemporary 

data that we can look at that I have assembled 

in this chart to try to assess, do somewhat of 

a reasonableness test. You know, if these 

values all came out higher than what we are 

modeling, then we say we have got a problem. 

If they are in the right ball -- 
222 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 You know, so these are just sort of 

a -- again, I am not suggesting that these 

things validate the model but it is 

constructive to bounce our outcomes up against 

some known values. 

 So here we have one, two, three, 

four, six different sites where radon was 

measured starting the earliest in 1975. And 

they were taken pretty much, these samples 

were taken all over the sites with different 

area storage areas, grinders, ore loading 

areas. Of particular note is the reaction 

vessel which is those digester tanks where 

sulfuric acid is digesting the rock. There is 

another feed tank measurement. So these 

represent sort of a range of different 

operations at the plants. 

 And if you look over here on the 

far right, you see the picocuries per liter 

that were measured in the Pocatello, Idaho 

plant was between 0.14 and 1.9 picocuries per 

liter. NIOSH did some work in the '70s and 
223 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

came out all below one picocurie per liter. 

Some of these are in working levels. One has 

to convert. So if you multiply this 0.02 

working levels would be the equivalent of 

about 4.0 picocuries per liter. 

 So they are all, basically what I 

am showing here is they are all well below 

that 95th percentile value of 17.6 picocuries 

per liter. We have no indication of anything 

close to 17.6, at least in the 1970s in wet 

phosphate plants. 

 And remember, the ventilation rate 

is one of the key drivers for this model. The 

amount of radon that comes out of the digester 

tank, followed by the ventilation rate of the 

building is what is going to change the 

concentration in the building. 

 And these numbers, there would have 

to be substantial changes, increases in the 

ventilation rates in these plants to get these 

values to be in the order of 17.6 picocuries 

per liter that we are estimating with the 
224 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

model. 

 Now, it is true we don't have any 

measurements at phosphate plants in the '50s 

but we do have an interesting set of data that 

was taken at the Mallinckrodt Plant, which all 

known and love now, where they did a fair 

amount of measurements of radon between 1946 

and 1957. That is what these data represent. 

This is taken right out of the Mallinckrodt 

Site Profile. 

 Oak Ridge Associated Universities 

in 1989 actually did a study well before this 

project ever started to try to reconstruct the 

radon exposures of workers at the Mallinckrodt 

Plant and here is how the data fell out. 

These rank from highest to lowest. So you see 

0.138 working level months per month worked 

here, following down, all the way down to 0.03 

for the lowest occupation which is a chemist. 

 It turns out that the process 

operators and manufacturing operators had the 

highest estimated working level months per 
225 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

month worked and it is about 0.14. Now that 

is working level -- it is equivalent to 

working levels. It is working level months 

per month. It kind of cancels out. So it is 

0.14 working levels. That would correspond to 

about 28 picocuries per liter; 25 to 28 

picocuries per liter, higher than the values 

that we have estimated at Blockson. But one 

needs to keep in mind that the uranium ore 

that was processed here was much, much more 

concentrated than any of the uranium ore that 

was processed at Blockson. 

 We said that Blockson was about 40 

picocuries per gram of uranium in the ore. 

That corresponds to 0.014 percent uranium by 

weight. The uranium that was processed in 

this plant during this time period was 

somewhere between 10 and 60 percent uranium by 

weight. So hundreds of times higher if not, 

in some instances, thousands of times higher 

uranium. And here we are only seeing a factor 

of two increase above what we would predict 
226 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

for the 95th percentile. 

 So again, I am not suggesting that 

this proves our model is correct. But again, 

I think we are building towards sort of a 

weight of the evidence approach to say that I 

think our numbers appear to be at least 

reasonable. 

 So, as I have been hinting here, 

what will our approach to dose reconstruction 

be? Well, we issued that white paper that Dr. 

Ziemer mentioned on April 22nd to the Board. 

And that was our written description of how we 

intend to do radon dose reconstructions at 

Blockson. 

 We will apply the 95th percentile 

of the model calculation, that is that 17.6 

picocuries per liter to all workers during the 

covered period. Because the dose is not from 

the radon gas but it is from the progeny, we 

have to apply some sort of an equilibrium 

factor to convert it to working levels. And 

we are going to apply the standard 0.4 
227 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

equilibrium factor that we used in the other 

model as well. And that is based on some 

guidance that we took from an unsecured 

report. 

 So the input term to the IREP model 

will be a constant intake of 0.84 working 

level months per year during the AEC contract 

period. 

 So it is always instructive to go 

back when we make changes like this and see 

what the effect on the cases may be at 

Blockson. We have done several iterations of 

Blockson with program evaluation reports. It 

turns out that as I mentioned, that radon only 

primarily affects the lungs, because that is 

where the big dose is delivered. So we went 

back and looked at the lung cancer cases that 

were determined to be less than 50 percent 

under the previous dose reconstruction method. 

 We found five lung cancer cases that had a 

Probability of Causation of less than 50 

percent. I didn't look up how many there 
228 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

were, but as I mentioned earlier in the day in 

another discussion, most of the lung cancer 

cases, and even at Blockson, are compensated 

because of the exposure to the uranium model 

that we have used. 

 So there were only five cases that 

were less than 50 percent. And interestingly, 

we looked at these and changed the radon 

concentration to be the value that we are 

proposing. And it only created minor changes 

in the PoC. And by minor, I mean less than 

0.1 percent in the Probability of Causation, 

which really surprised me. I mean, here we 

have made a seven-fold or so change, a seven 

to eight-fold change increase in the radon 

concentration an the Probability of Causation 

only goes up by 0.1 percent. So what is going 

on there? 

 Well, it turns out after some 

investigation the small change is due to the 

nature of the radon model itself. There is an 

exponential component in the radon risk model 
229 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that decreases the excess relative risk as a 

function of time since exposure. So, once 

your exposure stops and these people's 

exposure in the covered period stopped in 1961 

at the latest, if you develop lung cancer 30 

years later in 1990, the model confers a very 

small amount of risk from that radon causing 

that lung cancer 30 years later. That is just 

the nature of the way the radon lung cancer 

model works, which as we talked about in 

earlier meetings, is based on the 

epidemiologic work done on the uranium miners 

in the Colorado Plateau. So these are U.S. 

uranium miners that were modeled. So that was 

somewhat interesting. 

 If you move that exposure in closer 

in time, you can get tremendous changes in the 

Probability of Causation. I mean, it could go 

up by 30 or 40 points. But in this particular 

scenario for these particular five cases we 

looked at where the lung cancer has occurred 

well after the exposure stopped, it makes a 
230 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

very, very small difference in the Probability 

of Causation. 

 Nonetheless we plan on -- did I 

miss something here? No. We plan on 

incorporating this model into the Site Profile 

for Blockson. We will issue, as we normally 

would, a program evaluation report to address 

this change and rework all the cases to 

account for the increase in exposure. Again, 

as I said, almost all of increase will be to 

the respiratory tract but we can't ignore soft 

tissue dose. There is a small component of 

soft tissue dose because radon is a noble gas. 

 It is distributes itself in the body and does 

irradiate soft tissue. But our original 

estimate is that the increase in soft tissue 

dose will be less than 20 millirem per year to 

any of the cases. 

 So again, it would only affect the 

lung cancer cases and right now, it looks like 

it will be a very minimal effect, if any, on 

those cases. And I believe that finishes my 
231 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

remarks. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you very 

much, Jim. Let's open it up for questions now 

from the Board for Dr. Neton. 

 Yes, Dr. Poston? 

 DR. POSTON: Jim, just a curiosity. 

 For the soft tissue, what coefficient are you 

using? 

 DR. NETON: Well that is going to 

generate our whole model because there are no 

real coefficients out there. We took the -- I 

can't give you the exact, quote the number, 

but we had to generate the dose from the radon 

gasses. I think it is about 1,000th of a dose 

for the radon and gas partitions, 1,000th of 

the atmosphere into the body, the soft 

tissues. 

 There is an ICRP on this. I think 

it is 65 maybe. 

 DR. POSTON: Yes, there is some old 

data by Ostwald way, way, back. 

 DR. NETON: Yes, Ostwald's 
232 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

solubility concept. 

 DR. POSTON: Yes. 

 DR. NETON: Yes, I am familiar with 

that. But it is more than the radon gas 

itself. It turns out that if you have enough 

radon that it does allow some time for the 

progeny to leave the tracheobronchial tree 

through swallowing. And it turns out, I think 

the limiting dose becomes the GI tract for 

something like polonium-210 or lead-210. And 

that would be the limiting soft tissue dose. 

 DR. POSTON: Thank you. 

 DR. NETON: It is an interesting 

exercise because not many people have 

considered this. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Other questions? 

 Mark? 

 MR. GRIFFON: Jim, I may be wrong 

on this but I am just looking at the 

production rates. I mean, this is a fairly 

simplistic thing but I mean, I haven't looked 

at this report. It would have been nice to 
233 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

have the analytical files so you could check 

like what may be my math mistakes if I am 

making a math mistake. But I don't get this 

from 6,000 tons per, what is it, per week, 

6,000 tons per week converting that, you get 

9.4 or 9.5 milligrams per second -- 

 DR. NETON: This is the production 

schedule that was, I believe, around the 

clock. I think we allowed in the model eight 

hours. 

 MR. GRIFFON: I think 160 hours per 

week, you have eight hours down time. 

 DR. NETON: Yes, right, correct. 

 MR. GRIFFON: And I am getting like 

45 kilograms per second. 

 So anyway, it brings me on my main 

point, which is that I would love to have the 

spreadsheet with a crystal ball. 

 DR. NETON: Sure. I would be happy 

to send it to you. That's not a problem. 

 MR. GRIFFON: That would be great, 

yes. And I am probably, I am doing it 
234 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

quickly, so I am probably -- 

 DR. NETON: Yes, I am pretty 

certain I was right but -- 

 MR. GRIFFON: Yes, I just wanted to 

double check. I don't know why I am getting a 

different number. 

 And then I guess an initial 

question I had here was why the evolution of 

the radon from the sulfuric, you let it range 

from zero to one. I see it from zero to 0.7 

actually. But it is also a uniform 

distribution in that case. So it tells me 

that you really have no, I mean my initial 

thought was it can be zero or one. You don't 

have any idea. I mean, there is no preference 

sort of. You know, it is not a triangular 

distribution. There is no data there to 

support -- 

 DR. NETON: Right. Well, the 

uniform would be the -- 

 MR. GRIFFON: -- that distribution 

or very little. 
235 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 DR. NETON: Yes, it would be the 

most conservative distribution that we could 

pick, to allow it to vary anywhere between 

those two parameters. 

 MR. GRIFFON: It varies anywhere in 

between, yes. 

 DR. NETON: Unless it was sort of a 

reverse lognormal and we had it all on the 

high end. 

 But the reason we went down to 0.7 

was because Naomi, Dr. Harley, Naomi Harley 

had an input there. And she believed that it 

was way too high to say one was really sort of 

the upper limit. She had suggested 50 percent 

as a plausible upper bound or a reasonable 

upper bound. 

 And SC&A, in looking through the 

literature, and we concurred with this, there 

is some data showing if you turn on a faucet 

with hot water and spray a shower into a room, 

you are going to release a maximum of 70 

percent. So, we both ended up agreeing that 
236 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that seemed to be a plausible upper bound on 

the release. 

 Because remember that this model 

assumes that it is essentially an 

instantaneous release from the tank. There is 

no hold up time in this tank. So you have got 

a tank that is a very tall tank. I mean, it 

went from the floor up to the second story of 

the building. 

 So, it is a very deep tank full of 

a lot of liquid. And so the chance that the 

radon that is generated at the bottom of the 

tank would be instantaneously ventilated is 

pretty small. Plus you have sort of the 

aperture of the tank. It is a restricted 

opening so it would all have to percolate 

through that calm. To me, it is sort of akin 

to opening a can of Coke and saying it goes 

flat instantaneously. That is what we have 

done here. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Okay and the 

probability that it would instantaneously mix 
237 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

through this 28,000 cubic meter building is 

also -- 

 DR. NETON: I think that is not -- 

no, I think that is not that incredible. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Yes? 

 DR. NETON: I think given the air 

exchange rates we have here, once it goes 

through an hour's worth of iteration, it is 

going to be pretty well mixed, I think. 

 And I know you had a problem with 

inhomogeniety. And I forgot to mention that I 

think one of the reasons we went with the 95th 

percentile was to try to address that issue. 

We cannot guarantee that the radon release the 

radon behaved perfectly according to this 

model. Originally we were proposing the 50th 

percentile with a distribution about it but by 

going to the 95th percentile, these are the 

parameters that affect the upper limit of the 

radon in the building. 

 And so I can't conceive of any 

circumstance where those combinations of 
238 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

parameters could be different and generate 

more than 17.6 picocuries per meter. 

 For example, you could argue well, 

the ventilation might be lower in a certain 

part of the plant. Well, we used the 95th 

percentile or it might be a higher release 

fraction here. In my mind, the probabilistic 

model by going to the 95th percentile 

considers the totality of all of those 

parameters together. And it is implausible in 

my mind that you could get a continuous 

exposure in this plant higher than 17.6 

picocuries per liter. 

 MR. GRIFFON: I guess I was 

expecting more of a sort of, I mean, your 

qualitative explanation -- I guess I was 

looking for more of a do a what if for me. 

Show me if we had a certain scenario, how that 

would be bounded by your 95th percentile. I 

guess I was looking for a little bit -- 

 DR. NETON: You know, Mark, I 

looked and look for this but there is really 
239 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

no evidence that there is any of these massive 

releases in the building. I don't know, I 

just, I tried to model this the best we can 

and I don't see any scenario where the 

releases would be higher than what is coming 

out of the tanks which are distributed through 

the length of the building, by the way. These 

are not like individual tanks sitting in the 

corner. 

 My understanding of the tanks are 

they ran the length of the building. So, you 

have that and that is the main release point 

from the tank. It is not a point source 

release in a corner somewhere. 

 I looked at data for the filtration 

beds, where you have the material being 

filtered through and you are generating 

phosphogypsum. Those don't appear to be very 

high. It is a liquid material, the radium is 

there but I could not find any indication that 

you would have these, like say, an operator 

over. If you look at the Mallinckrodt the 
240 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

data the people that were handling all those 

filters did not have those huge inhomogeniety. 

 So, I can't explain it any more 

than that, I guess. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Dr. Melius, 

comment? 

 DR. MELIUS: No, Mark just asked my 

question. I guess I am still concerned that 

there is no analysis of that here in the 

paper. 

 DR. NETON: Well, I think that is 

why the probabilistic model was done, so that 

we could account for the uncertainty in all of 

the parameters and roll them together and pick 

the upper end of the distribution to consider 

the differences that would account for 

inhomogeniety. 

 I mean there may be, my guess is 

that the best estimate of the radon in this 

plant is about four picocuries per liter. 

There may be pockets that go as high as 17.6 

based on this inhomogeniety, which would be a 
241 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

combination of an upper-end of an emanation 

coefficient with a lower end of an air 

exchange rate. That is what would cause 

inhomogeniety in a radon model and they are in 

there and we have accounted for them 

explicitly. 

 DR. MELIUS: What about mixing 

factors? 

 DR. NETON: That is what I am 

saying, though. This would account for nonuniform mixing in the environment. You may 

have pockets where the mixing, you have a high 

emanation rate followed by a low ventilation 

rate would be essentially a low mixing 

situation and the 95th percentile, those 

combinations gives you 17.6 picocuries per 

liter. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Phil Schofield. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Yes, I have just 

got a question. You are talking about the 

tanks. Are these open tanks or are these 

tanks that are basically enclosed with a 
242 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

fanned ventilation system? 

 DR. NETON: My understanding is 

during the early period, they were open to the 

environment and later on, I forget what the 

time frame was, collection cones were put over 

the top to help direct it. But they were near 

the, closer to the roof of the building than 

further way. They were up on a second floor 

deck, the opening of the tank, that is. And 

there were vents up on top of the building. 

They weren't completely shut off. 

 But to the best of our knowledge 

during this time period, there was no active 

ventilation of the tanks that would capture, 

hoods and such. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, perhaps we 

are ready to hear from Kathy Pinchetti on the 

phone. Kathy, are you still there? 

 MS. PINCHETTI: I am still here. 

Do you have some comments or questions for us? 

 Well, it seems like one thing that 

doesn't get mentioned very much is the weather 
243 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

factor. In Joliet, they tend to have you 

know, pretty drastic swings in the weather, 

like tornadoes, ice, hail, humidity. And when 

there is a thunderstorm or a tornado touching 

down, the material doesn't move because the 

electricity is out. And so if you have one 

part of the plant that is in the middle of 

production and can't get it out of the 

building into the next portion, it sits there. 

 And in the winter, those vents are probably 

frozen shut and if the sky is turning green 

because there are tornadoes touching down, 

those bay doors are not going to be open. 

 So if the ventilation rate affects 

a lot of the exposure, I think we need to 

consider those drastic changes. 

 And in the Harley report, it looked 

like one of her references was a home in the 

Pacific Northwest. And I think Washington 

State is, you know, warm rain and there is a 

lot of greenery. I mean, it doesn't mean it 

never gets cold but I don't know if that would 
244 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

have an affect on the, I guess it was the 

ventilation rate through a home. 

 And I respect that all you guys are 

scientists. I am certainly not but I have 

been learning and learning a little bit about 

radiation. And the spot that they found in 

1983, that spot was 25 years old when they 

found it. So I don't know how estimating what 

the, I guess the strength of it was when it 

was originally there, as opposed to when it 

was found in '83. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, perhaps, 

Dr. Neton, you can respond to that. 

 DR. NETON: I just have one comment 

on Dr. Harley's reference to this home. I 

believe it was in New Jersey. And that was in 

reference to the lower bound of the 

ventilation rate. Originally, SC&A's model 

had a lower bound of 0.1 air exchanges per 

hour and Dr. Harley was pointing out that even 

under the tightest conditions of an energy 

efficient home, one can barely achieve that 
245 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

type of lower bound of a ventilation rate. So 

clearly, in a plant that has open doors and 

windows and has a heat source in the middle of 

hot sulfuric acid, the ventilation rate would 

clearly be higher than 0.1 interchanges per 

hour, that was the point that she was making. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Didn't you use 0.1 as 

your lower bound in your range now? 

 DR. NETON: No, we used one air 

exchange per hours as is a credible lower 

bound for the air exchange rate. That was 

after discussion with Dr. Harley and looking 

at some literature, we believe it is pretty 

reasonable as a lower bound. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Jim, did you have 

any comments on the other weather issues that 

were mentioned in terms of, or loss of power, 

electricity? 

 DR. NETON: Well I mean, other than 

that those may have been temporary excursions. 

 I mean, I am sure power went out occasionally 

but I can't comment on it other than like I 
246 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

say, in the big picture, for an entire year's 

worth of operation, this model does not make 

any distinction between winter and summer when 

summer it would clearly be the windows would 

be more wide open, the doors would be, you 

know, there would be more natural ventilation 

through the plant. We believe that the one to 

five range adequately addresses the average 

type of ventilation that one would experience 

in a plant. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Jim, just another 

reason I wanted to see the analytical file. 

Because on your slide, it says air exchange 

rate and maybe it is not the value you used, 

but it says 2.78 E to the minus 5th per 

second, which converts to 0.09 something. 

 DR. NETON: That is a cut a paste 

issue. I'm sorry. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Okay, okay. 

 DR. NETON: I meant one. 

 MR. GRIFFON: And that was what was 

confusing me. 
247 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

 DR. NETON: Yes, I am sorry. 

 MR. GRIFFON: That's okay. I just 

-- 

 DR. NETON: Yes, I apologize for 

that. 

 MR. GRIFFON: It's okay. I just 

wanted to -- 

 DR. NETON: Clearly, just for the 

record, it was one air exchange to five air 

exchanges per hour is what we used in our 

model. 

 DR. MELIUS: Don't sit down, Jim, 

unless you want some more exercise. It's a 

quick question. 

 You have just mentioned some 

references relative to industrial building 

ventilation that were used here. I don't see 

them referenced in the report. So, I am just 

curious. 

 DR. NETON: Yes, what I did was 

sort of produce here the Reader's Digest

version, I suppose. The original SC&A report 

21 

22 
248 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

had references associated with it. And I 

guess I assumed that the Board had access to 

those. The working group certainly had them. 

 I should have attached them and I can make 

them available to the full Board. 

 MS. MUNN: They were sent to the 

Board. 

 DR. NETON: They were sent to the 

Board? 

 MS. MUNN: Yes. 

 DR. NETON: The Board did have 

them. That is from Appendix B of the SC&A 

white paper on radon modeling at Blockson. 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay. I am just 

trying to -- I think we do have those. 

 DR. NETON: Yes. 

 DR. MELIUS: I just, you didn't -- 

 DR. NETON: I'm sorry. 

 DR. MELIUS: -- specification on 

it. 

 DR. NETON: Yes, I thought since 

those had already been distributed, I really 
249 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

was asked to put on paper our position on 

radon because we had been criticized for 

verbally agreeing to a certain value. But I 

think Mark asked, well, what is NIOSH doing. 

So this is in writing what we are committed to 

using for our dose reconstructions. 

 MS. MUNN: Those references were 

all included in the material that was sent to 

the Board prior to our vote at the last 

Albuquerque meeting. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, further 

comments or questions? 

 Board Members, we have a situation 

here where we have to determine whether we are 

ready to vote on the original recommendation 

from NIOSH, the NIOSH position that they could 

reconstruct dose for this site. The working 

group did not have a consensus position or 

recommendation for this because of these open 

items. I ask the Board now if you are ready 

to take action or do you believe that you have 

some additional questions or concerns in terms 
250 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

of these items that we have just discussed? 

Ms. Munn? 

 MS. MUNN: Dr. Ziemer, I bring to 

your attention the fact that I believe we took 

a vote at our Albuquerque meeting with respect 

to this very issue and it was a split vote. 

And at the end of that time, there were 

additional questions raised, specifically with 

regard to the topic that Dr. Neton has just 

covered. I believe I just heard that there is 

still a request on the table for yet some 

additional information. Didn't you say you 

wanted more? 

 MR. GRIFFON: Just the analysis 

file, yes. I mean, I think that is 

legitimate. 

 MS. MUNN: So it would not appear 

that a vote at this time is in order from 

either side of the picture. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We do not have a 

motion before us, I grant you that. What I am 

asking is, does anyone wish to make a motion 
251 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

at this point? Otherwise, no action would 

mean that we would continue -- this would be 

in a sense a continuing item that would have 

to reappear on our agenda because we make -- 

 Well, let's put it this way. We 

have an action which is inconclusive which, in 

itself is a kind of action. But if the Board 

wishes to take further action based on the 

findings that we have had here, then we have 

the opportunity to do that. 

 Mark, you have a comment? Dr. 

Melius? 

 MR. GRIFFON: I guess I was just 

going to ask a process question. I think this 

has been taken out of the Work Group and back 

to the full Board. Right? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That's right. 

 DR. MELIUS: My question was if I 

get this analysis file and I have follow-up 

questions, I hate to wait until the next full 

Board meeting. How can we work that through, 

I guess is the question I have. 
252 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well we may need 

to ponder that and address it tomorrow in our 

Work Group session. But even if it went back 

to a Work Group, this Board cannot take action 

until we meet again. Dr. Melius, did you have 

an additional comment? 

 DR. MELIUS: I guess procedurally, 

didn't we once have a motion and then table 

the motion? That is what we are operating 

under. 

 MS. MUNN: No. We had a motion. 

We tabled the motion. I brought it off the 

table in Albuquerque. We voted on it. It was 

a split vote with a request for additional 

information, which was the reason for Dr. 

Neton's presentation today, as I recall those 

occurrences. 

 DR. MELIUS: I would like 

clarification. I don't think it makes -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I think we can 

clarify that before our work session tomorrow 

and then decide how to proceed. 
253 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

 DR. MELIUS: Yes, please. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Either way, it 

would either have to come off the table for 

something to happen or we would need another 

motion for something to happen. But if we can 

agree to address that tomorrow and perhaps in 

the meantime, make a determination on how to 

proceed in terms of the information that Mark 

Griffon has asked for. 

 Are there any other comments on 

this particular item? 

 DR. MELIUS: I just have one 

comment to Jim Neton. 

 It would have been preferable to me 

to not have a Reader's Digest version of this. 

 I know it means more work for you and so 

forth but for example, the table in your 

presentation on known values and so forth, I 

think we may have seen some of that in other 

places. 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 DR. NETON: Actually, all of those 

values are developed in Appendix B of the SC&A 
254 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

report. 

 DR. MELIUS: Was it? Okay but it 

would have been better to pull it all 

together, I think, and been more useful to me. 

 Certainly, take it for what it is worth. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, any further 

discussion on this item at this point? We 

will return to the Blockson discussion during 

our work session tomorrow, so that we can 

delineate a path forward. 

 Let us then proceed. We are just 

within a few minutes of 4:00, so I think we 

can proceed with the Santa Susana discussion. 

 I do want to check first to see if 

the petitioner is on the line for Santa 

Susana. 

 MS. KLEA: Yes. Bonnie Klea. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you, 

Bonnie. Since you are on the line, we will 

proceed. Mr. Rutherford will present the 

NIOSH evaluation report and you will have an 

opportunity then also to comment. So first, 
255 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

LaVon Rutherford. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Okay, thank you, 

Dr. Ziemer. 

 I want to go ahead up front and say 

that what we are presenting is a revised class 

definition from our original evaluation report 

and the justification for why we have changed 

that class definition. 

 I will give a little background 

here. Back on June 22, 2007, we received a 

Special Exposure Cohort petition for the Santa 

Susanna Field Lab. On October 19th of that 

same year, we qualified that petition. We 

qualified that petition based on the limited 

data that we had in the early years of the 

proposed class by the petitioner. On October 

17 29th of that year, we issued a Federal 

18 Register notice announcing that qualification. 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 On February 15th, we completed our 

evaluation and issued our evaluation report. 

And in April of 2008, we presented that 

evaluation report at the Tampa meeting, 
256 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Advisory Board meeting. 

 At that meeting, we had proposed a 

class to be added to the SEC and I will get 

into that a little bit further. But the Board 

at that meeting determined that they would not 

vote on that class until the newly formed 

Santa Susana Field Lab Work Group had a chance 

to evaluate whether the class was properly 

defined. 

 Based on that, we went back and 

recognizing that that was an issue, we went 

back and we did some further evaluation, 

looking at whether the class that we had 

originally proposed to the Board was properly 

defined as we had originally thought. 

 In April of 2009, based on further 

review, we determined the proposed class 

definition needed to be revised. We reported 

this to the Advisory Board's Work Group for 

Santa Susana during its meeting on April 17, 

2009. We issued a revised evaluation report 

to the Advisory Board and the petitioners. I 
257 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

want to further say that, you know, there are 

a number of issues actually between the time 

we issued our evaluation report, it went to 

the Work Group, and to the time we issued the 

new revised evaluation report. SC&A did do a 

review of the evaluation and it had identified 

some issues. Those issues were put together 

in a matrix and we initially responded to 

those issues. 

 Those issues are still on the 

table. We are working through those with the 

Work Group and SC&A. And at some point when 

those issues are resolved, it may be at a 

point where we may look, when we come to 

resolution of those issues, an additional 

class could be added. 

 So at no point am I going to say 

that this evaluation is totally complete, 

until those issues have been resolved. This 

is standard practice that we have done with 

other evaluations and I just wanted to make 

that clear. 
258 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Our initial proposed class was all 

employees of DOE, its predecessor and so on 

who were monitored. The key point here is 

monitored while working in any area of the 

Santa Susana Field Lab-Area IV. And the dates 

were January 1, 1955 to December 31, 1958. 

 We identified that class as 

monitored because of basically our 

justification was that we determined that it 

was not feasible, our feasibility 

determination it was not feasible was for 

internal exposure, internal dose to the class. 

And again in our evaluation, we recognized 

that, or at that point we determined that only 

individuals that entered radiological areas 

had the potential for internal exposure. 

 And then through interviews, also 

through other data sources we had indication 

that all individuals that entered radiological 

areas were monitored. So ultimately, we 

concluded that the class would be defined by 

those individuals that were monitored. We 
259 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

could come back and we presented this class 

definition at the time to the Department of 

Labor and they felt they could administer it 

at the time. Now again, this class was not 

voted on. 

 After further review, we went back 

and we looked at additional documentation that 

we had received through Santa Susana. We also 

went back and looked at some claimant 

interviews and it had some other interviews 

where indications were that some of the 

workers, you know, typical workers like 

patrolmen, you know, some of the firemen and 

so on that were in job titles that we would 

have perceived in certain situations that they 

would have been monitored, we were not coming 

up with monitoring data. 

 We also -- and that could have 

been, it may have been that they were 

monitored but the data does not exist or that 

they were not monitored. Either way, we could 

not support the original class definition that 
260 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

all our personnel that were monitored during 

that period. 

 So we revised our recommended class 

to basically include all employees for that 

period at Area IV, January 1, 1955 through 

December 31, 1958. We issued the revised 

evaluation report. Again, the revised 

evaluation report addresses that change and 

that change only. 

 Questions? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, so the main 

change since the previous time was the 

definition of who was eligible in terms of 

monitoring versus not monitoring. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: That is correct. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Let's see 

if we have questions from the Board on this 

proposal. And LaVon, as I understand it, you 

have specified that this does not preclude 

adding additional classes for later time 

periods, depending on the outcomes of the 

matrix resolution that is now underway with 
261 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

SC&A and the Work Group. I believe, Mike, you 

are the Chair of that Work Group. Are you 

not? 

 MR. GIBSON: Yes. That does not. 

It does not. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Let's ask 

Bonnie Klea, the petitioner, if she has some 

comments at this point. 

 MS. KLEA: Well, I do have some 

comments but I am not sure they are 

appropriate for what we are discussing right 

now. When we had the meeting in Redondo 

Beach, I asked Mr. Neton why was he 

restricting the class to the monitored workers 

and he said well Boeing told me that. 

 And so my problem with your site 

expert is he is the Site Expert witness who 

has testified against all of the workers who 

are dead and deceased and I am not at all 

happy with the data that has been provided to 

the Site Profile. And so I do have a lot of 

issues. 
262 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 But I am very happy that NIOSH has 

changed that word monitored because I told 

them it was very insulting to lead people to 

believe that the workers who were onsite that 

were monitored were not exposed. And so I am 

very happy that that has been changed. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you 

very much. And of course, as the workgroup 

proceeds with NIOSH, I am addressing some of 

the issues for the later time periods. They 

certainly will keep you in the loop on that as 

well. 

 MS. KLEA: Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Mike do you have 

any additional comments on behalf of the Work 

Group on this particular item? 

 MR. GIBSON: LaVon, in your revised 

evaluation report, NIOSH still maintains that 

you can do dose reconstruction after '58. Do 

you have any other information that leads you 

to believe or makes you doubt that decision or 

that current position? 
263 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: As you know, there 

is discussion onboard looking at the early 

years after 1958, the internal monitoring 

data. At this point, we have not made a 

change to our feasibility determination. We 

are continuing to look at that period. 

Ultimately in a relatively short period of 

time, we will be able to make that decision. 

 MS. KLEA: This is Bonnie. I have 

a question and I would like to know why the 

period of residual contamination, which would 

be for the cleanup, why that period did not 

qualify. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Let me see if I 

can get someone to answer that. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: I can answer that 

question. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: LaVon, if you 

could, answer that. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, it is not 

really part of this evaluation but the reason 

the petitioner proposed or actually had a 
264 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

petition for both the earlier period all the 

way up through the residual period. The 

reason for qualification of the petition was 

the lack of internal monitoring data that 

occurred during the early years. That lack of 

internal monitoring data stopped after that 

issue was no longer an issue and not an issue 

within the residual period. And therefore, we 

did not qualify that portion of the petition. 

 MS. KLEA: Are you saying that 

after '65, there was no need to do internal 

monitoring? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: I am saying that 

based on, at the time, when we evaluated the 

petition, that the data that we had at the 

time, your basis was not supported to qualify 

that period. We had monitoring data, 

personnel, or area monitoring data, which is 

the qualification criteria. 

 MS. KLEA: Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Josie Beach has a 

question or comment. 
265 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MS. BEACH: LaVon, a little bit on 

what Mike asked you. Is there any way you can 

be a little more clear or specific about the 

dates that you are looking at that you will 

have information very soon for? 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well you know, I 

am not sure that we want to throw out exact 

dates, but it is a short, the first few years 

after the '58 period, '59 to '62 time frame, 

roughly, that we are looking at the internal 

monitoring data during that period. 

 MS. BEACH: And I hate to pinpoint 

you. But what kind of time frame? You said 

very shortly. Is that a week, two weeks? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Jim Neton. 

 DR. NETON: One of the reasons that 

LaVon can't be more specific I think is there 

are some data sets that we need to get full 

complete access to. And one of those data 

sets is the identified monitoring data that 

John Boyce used in his epidemiologic study of 

those workers. 
266 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 We have the de-identified set. But 

to adequately develop a coworker model, we 

need to have the fully identified set. And 

right now we are having some discussions with 

the folks at Rocketdyne and others to make 

sure that we get those data. And so in some 

respects, it is a little bit out of our hands 

at this point. 

 MS. KLEA: This is Bonnie. I would 

just also like to remind everyone that it was 

after 1958 that we had reactor failures. We 

had AE-6 in March of '58 or March of '59. We 

had the SRE in July of '59 and in '64 we ran 

SNAP-8ER with 80 percent of the cladding 

cracked for a whole year. And then in '68, 

SNAP-8DR failed, over 70 seal rods cracked. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you 

for that additional comment. Any further 

questions? Yes, Mike, go ahead. 

 MR. GIBSON: One more question. 

The petitioner had a concern about any names 

the Site Expert, one of the Site Experts being 
267 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

conflicted. How have you looked into that and 

what information have you used from this 

person in question? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, I will be 

honest with you. I am not aware who that 

individual is. I think, Dr. Neton, do you 

have any idea who this person is? And the 

team that actually did the evaluation that was 

responsible for the evaluation, will not 

conflict. 

 DR. NETON: Yes, I am not aware of 

any specific individual that was brought up 

during the working group discussion. So I am 

at a loss to comment. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I am going to 

suggest, Kathy, that you communicate with Mike 

Gibson, the Work Group chair in a little more 

detail on that. Pardon me? Or, I'm sorry. I 

am still back at Blockson, I guess. Bonnie, 

communicate with Mike Gibson that information 

and then he can follow up on that further with 

the Work Group and with NIOSH. It is 
268 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

certainly true that in many cases we use 

information from site experts and actually any 

site expert in the sense it is conflicted 

because they worked on that site. But that 

has to be filtered through others who review 

what was said and typically site experts are 

not the authors of the documents. 

 But they will follow up on that and 

they will get back to you. Mike, you have an 

additional comment? 

 MS. KLEA: Yes and I do, too, when 

Mike is done. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. 

 MR. GIBSON: I just wanted to 

indicate that I believe that it was indicated 

that this person had testified against 

workers. So that is a little bit more than 

being a site expert. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Oh, okay. I 

thought it was a site expert. But yes, that 

is certainly another situation. 

 Go ahead, Bonnie. 
269 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MS. KLEA: This person is the 

expert witness against the workers. He 

testified against me and he testified against 

all the other workers when they brought their 

workers compensation to trial. And actually, 

they wrote the documents. He wrote the 

document that is listed in Section 5.0 in the 

latest NIOSH evaluation. He authored that 

large report on a factual perspective. And he 

authored it and that report has not been 

accepted in the environmental community here 

in California. Not by the EPA and not by the 

activist. And I have been working on this for 

15 years side-by-side with the EPA. And that 

particular document is especially 

misrepresenting the hazards from the reactor 

failures. And that was offered by this 

particular person. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Jim Neton, 

comment on that? 

 DR. NETON: Yes, that exchange has 

jogged my memory. This was in relationship to 
270 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the modeled exposures as a result of the 

reactor failures and NIOSH has proposed that 

there are several scenarios that have been 

postulated as to what the hazards were from 

the reactor failures. One of those is 

authored by the person we are talking about. 

There is another model, release model that had 

been proposed. What we have proposed to do is 

to have an independent expert review both of 

those reports and comment on the scientific 

validity and accuracy of both of those models. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So NIOSH has not 

officially accepted that model then that is 

being -- 

 DR. NETON: That is correct. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, so Bonnie, 

you heard that comment and -- 

 MS. KLEA: Yes, I did. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- and you can 

track that. That is still yet to unfold, I 

would say. 

 MS. KLEA: Well and then also we 
271 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

are having a conflict of interest with Dade 

Moeller. They are doing the dose 

reconstructions for our employees and they are 

also being paid to find no evidence of 

radiation offsite of the reactor area. They 

are doing separate work for a home builder and 

they have reported no offsite radiation, which 

is contrary to earlier studies that were done. 

 So, we are pretty conflicted about 

that also. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Okay, 

thank you very much for that additional 

information. Larry Elliott has a comment 

here. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, Bonnie, this is 

Larry. If you have that kind of information, 

we would encourage you to seek out the 

Conflict or Bias Officer at NIOSH to report 

that. This is news to us. 

 MS. KLEA: Can somebody send me an 

email with an exact contact? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. It is on our 
272 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

website. If you look at the Conflict or Bias 

Policy that is presented on our OCAS website, 

you will find the contact information there 

but we will send you the information, the 

contact information you do need. 

 MS. KLEA: So do you agree with me 

that that would be really a bad conflict? 

 MR. ELLIOTT: I am not going to 

offer an opinion or a comment until I 

understand the circumstances. 

 MS. KLEA: Okay, thank you. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: Because Dade Moeller 

Associates is a teaming partner of ORAU but 

doesn't necessarily mean that an individual 

working in the Dade Moeller employ on a 

different project did what they did at 

someone's home. It doesn't mean that -- 

 MS. KLEA: No, it is on all of the 

land adjoining the nuclear area has been 

bought by a home builder and so they were 

hired to give a report to the city on its 

safety. And they said it is perfectly safe. 
273 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

And we uncovered original data in the past by 

other contractors that found very high levels 

of radiation. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: I would suggest and 

encourage you to provide the details that you 

have -- 

 MS. KLEA: Okay, thanks. 

 MR. ELLIOTT: -- and let the 

Conflict or Bias Officer examine them. 

 MS. KLEA: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. Any 

further comments? Mike? 

 MR. GIBSON: If there are no 

further comments, I am ready to make a motion. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you. 

 Go ahead. 

 MR. GIBSON: Based on NIOSH's 

change of the definition of the class and/or 

to continue looking at potentially extending 

the scope, the length of this class, I would 

make a recommendation that we pass this 

partial SEC. 
274 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The motion, in 

effect, is to recommend to the Secretary to 

add this class to the SEC. 

 MR. GIBSON: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And is there a 

second to this motion? 

 MR. GRIFFON: Second. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And seconded. 

So, unless our regular scribe is ready to give 

us the exact words, they may have to come to 

us tomorrow. Well, we will need to get his 

vote as well. 

 Dr. Poston? 

 DR. POSTON: Could you take a 

moment and summarize the ramification of this 

motion in terms of positive and negative; if 

we vote positively, we vote negatively, so I 

can understand? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The motion itself, 

the preamble is not part of the motion. The 

preamble is Mike's understanding of the 

context of the motion that there is some 
275 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

possible additional work. But the motion 

itself is to add a class to the Special 

Exposure Cohort and that class will be all 

individuals -- well, let me not -- and it is 

all employees of the Department of Energy, its 

predecessor agencies, DOE contractors and 

subcontractors who worked in any area of AreaIV of the Santa Susana Field Laboratory for a 

number of workdays, aggregating at least 250 

work days from January 1, 1955 through 

December 31, 1958 or in combination with 

workdays within the parameters established for 

one or more other classes of employees in the 

SEC. And that is the motion. It is adding a 

class, those definitions. And the only change 

from what we had before was that it is anyone 

that worked there, not just those who were 

monitored. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Then I think we 

are ready to vote. Well has Jim left for the 

day? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER : No, I think we 
276 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

will go ahead and vote. And we will have the 

precise wording available for us tomorrow. It 

will be a standard boilerplate type of wording 

with this class as defined. So, let's 

proceed. 

 Okay, and if Dr. Melius is not back 

by the time that the vote is finished, we, 

under our rules we still will get his vote and 

we can do that tomorrow. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, Ms. Beach? 

 MS. BEACH: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Clawson? 

 MR. CLAWSON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Gibson. 

 MR. GIBSON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Griffon. 

 MR. GRIFFON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Lockey? 

 DR. LOCKEY: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Munn. 

 MS. MUNN: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Poston? 
277 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 DR. POSTON: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Presley? 

 MR. PRESLEY: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Roessler? 

 DR. ROESSLER: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Mr. Schofield? 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: Dr. Ziemer? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes. 

 MR. KATZ: That is all, except for 

Dr. Melius. 

 DR. MELIUS: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Now, we have a 

little bit of time, Ted. I am wondering if we 

can -- Dr. Melius, we just finished voting. 

Are you prepared to vote on the petition or 

would you wish to wait until tomorrow? 

 DR. MELIUS: Tell me the motion. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The motion was to 

add this class -- to add the class as 

described. 

 DR. MELIUS: And I will vote yes. 
278 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. 

 DR. MELIUS: Make sure you weren't 

tricking me. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We have given you 

a deferred to time tomorrow to provide some 

words for us, if you are so willing to do. 

 Ted, can we talk about future 

meeting dates? Is this a good time to do 

that? 

 MR. KATZ: Sure, absolutely. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: First of all, our 

next meeting, I believe it is Cincinnati, is 

it not? Where are we at? 

 MR. KATZ: Our next meeting is in 

Cincinnati, yes. And then following that we 

are -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Give us the dates 

for the record. 

 MR. KATZ: One second. 

 MR. PRESLEY: 27th, 28th, and 29th 

is what I have. 

 MR. KATZ: That sounds right. 
279 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. PRESLEY: It will be downtown. 

 MR. KATZ: That is correct, the 

27th to the 29th of July. And it is somewhere 

downtown Cincinnati. At the Marriott 

downtown. I don't know exactly the address. 

 Oh, it's over the river, then. The 

Marriott over the river in Cincinnati. No, it 

is not Ohio. It is Kentucky. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: It's Kentucky. 

 MR. KATZ: It is right over the 

bridge, I think pretty much. Is that correct, 

Nancy? Thank you. 

 DR. MELIUS: I have actually stayed 

there. Yes, but my question is, I mean, it is 

not the best access for Fernald or Mound. I 

thought that we were trying to be a little bit 

-- I thought we were only in Cincinnati in 

order to be able to reach out to people from 

Fernald and I thought Mound also. And sort of 

going in the wrong direction. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: All right. Hold 

on here. Let's get a comment from -- 
280 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, I am with Dr. 

Melius on that by the way. But I want to 

point out another factor, that we are going to 

be presenting Piqua or Organic Monterey 

Reactor but Piqua is a little north of Dayton 

and so the farther south in Covington, that is 

more of a drive. So, I just wanted to get 

that out. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And perhaps when 

we selected Cincinnati that was -- the details 

were not necessarily known to the staff, in 

terms of the site locations and particularly 

the Piqua issue was not in the picture, I 

don't think. 

 MR. KATZ: That's right. I don't 

know the details. I am assuming that this 

hotel was the hotel that she could get 

availability for in that time period. I am 

sure she tried. 

 We had to try at least three hotels 

in the area to get a best value decision, in 

terms of the hotel. 
281 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. PRESLEY: Well, it is only 500 

yards across the -- 

 MR. KATZ: It is right across the 

bridges from -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, it is still 

not close to -- 

 MR. KATZ: But -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- the site. 

 MR. KATZ: I suspect that the 

contract is already made at this point. But I 

can look into the question. 

 DR. LOCKEY: Yes, I would concur, 

Cincinnati is a funny town. There’s people on 

the west side that have never been to the east 

side and there’s people on the east side who 

have never been to the west side. So across 

the river is like maybe a whole new world. 

 DR. MELIUS: And frankly, Covington 

has a pretty bad reputation. So, you know, in 

the past, so people from Dayton may not want 

to go there, right? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes. Okay, well 
282 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Ted will look into this. Also a reminder that 

we have a teleconference on June 16th. So 

make sure that is on your calendar. That 

would be between now and then. 

 MR. KATZ: Actually I wanted; I put 

that there, actually with sort of a question 

mark to it because it is about a month from 

now. And we have now two teleconferences in a 

row that felt like really there was not enough 

new water under the bridge to convene the 

teleconferences following the face-to-face 

Board Meeting. So I just wanted to raise the 

question as to -- 

 For example, if there were to be a 

substantial reworking, which I don't expect 

with respect to the Security Plan based on DOE 

comments, if there needed to be, of course, 

that would be then a very close time to have 

another full Board Meeting. But anyway, I 

just wanted to raise the question whether 

Board Members feel like we should keep that on 

the agenda, on the schedule, in which case I 
283 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

need to put out a Federal Notice etcetera to 

notice it. 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, I simply 

observed there are a couple of Work Groups 

that we will be meeting between now and then. 

 The Fernald work -- no, the Mound Work Group 

will be meeting, I believe, Josie. 

 MS. BEACH: Yes. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And then the 

Procedures Work Group meets on June 9th. 

Seeing as those dates are fairly close to a 

teleconference, it is not so likely that you 

would have action items ready to come to the 

Board from either of those Work Groups. The 

only -- Phil? 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: INL on the 10th of 

June and Pinellas on the 11th. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Even more 

so then, it is unlikely that you could have 

action items ready for the Board. 

 MR. PRESLEY: And then Pinellas is 

the 11th. 
284 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I have INL and 

Pinellas. 

 So, unless there are major things 

on the DOE issue, security issue, it is not so 

likely that we would have anything requiring 

action. Now, I told Ted last time, I don't 

want to have a Board Meeting where we just get 

on there and each Work Group says we haven't 

met since the last meeting or we have no 

action items, it is not a good use of our 

time. 

 So unless we have real work to 

accomplish, why we can easily cancel it. But 

you have to have an agenda ready soon. 

 DR. MELIUS: Well, what is the date 

for the agenda? 

 MR. KATZ: I would need an agenda 

18 next week, basically, to put in the Federal 

Register. And that is fine. I can come up 

with an agenda but the question is, do you 

think you will want that meeting? 

19 

20 

21 

22 DR. MELIUS: I mean, the only item 
285 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

I can think of is DOE. The security -- I 

shouldn't say DOE. The only item is security 

plan. We are not going to have the comments 

back in a week. It is like the end of next 

week. It just -- if we need, I don't know if 

it makes a difference whether we do that or 

wait until, what is it, August? July? I 

don't remember. 

 MR. KATZ: That's right. 

Otherwise, our next meeting would be in July. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well, as a 

practical matter, aside from that document, we 

are, in essence, operating under those rule 

anyway, using the NIOSH procedures. So, the 

Chair sees no real reason, at this point, for 

us to meet by phone. Is there any objection 

to canceling the teleconference on June the 

16th? 

 MS. BEACH: None. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: There appears to 

be none. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay then, the next item 
286 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

about future plans is we have -- so we are 

scheduled out through the fall for locations. 

 We have the next on the schedule is February 

of 2010. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Hold on a second. 

 We have a Brookhaven meeting scheduled. And 

I want to ask NIOSH how likely is it that we 

will actually be ready to discuss Brookhaven? 

 Brookhaven is maybe even hard to get to than 

Amarillo. 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: The Brookhaven 

evaluation, we have had a number of issues 

which this is great. I could just take away a 

couple of slides out of my presentation 

tomorrow. We have had a number of issues with 

data capture. They had the PII issue and we 

are back to work in getting things done at 

Brookhaven. There is a chance we won't make 

July but I am certain we would make the 

September meeting for presenting that 

evaluation. 

 MR. KATZ: It is actually October. 
287 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. RUTHERFORD: October meeting. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes, we should have 

that. I don't want to say I am certain. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The dates for the 

October meeting are the 20th through the 22nd. 

 MR. KATZ: That is correct. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So I guess we 

leave it there for the moment. 

 Okay, proceed. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay then the next faceto-face meeting would be February 9 to 11, 

2010. For that, -- 

 MS. MUNN: Are you not counting the 

teleconference in December? 

 MR. KATZ: We don't need a 

location. That is by phone. 

 MS. MUNN: Oh, all right. You are 

talking only locations. 

 MR. KATZ: Yes. 

 MS. MUNN: So the question is, some 

locations such as Las Vegas are very difficult 

to book and we would certainly need to get to 
288 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

work on that soon. Other locations are not as 

difficult. 

 DR. MELIUS: Actually, February in 

Las Vegas isn't that hard. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, I was warned about 

that location in particular but okay. 

 So, it is February 9th through the 

11th. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: So are we talking 

Las Vegas then? 

 MR. KATZ: No, so no locations have 

been suggested. And I am just -- some 

locations could be problematic. That is why I 

don't know if the Board has any thoughts about 

where to meet at that point or whether OCAS 

has any suggestions with respect to -- 

 DR. ROESSLER: In the south, 

somewhere where it doesn't snow. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Now wait a minute. 

Every time we have been back here, you guys 

have left because Idaho and Denver was so bad 

snow, we got a snow storm in Cincinnati. So, 
289 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

I don't want you to jinx anything. Perhaps 

Cincinnati is not the south. 

 MR. CLAWSON: I was kind of 

thinking it was. 

 MS. MUNN: California maybe? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Ted, how much 

lead time do we need? 

 MR. KATZ: Again, it would be good 

to have a location now. We are sort of right 

on the edge of where it nice to be able to 

plan. 

 DR. LOCKEY: Yes, Savannah River or 

California. 

 MS. MUNN: What is or most likely 

site? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well we were -- 

it has not been that long since we have been 

in Augusta. Nancy has a comment. 

 NANCY: The issue with Las Vegas, 

the last time we were there, was the 

electronics show. The electronics show is 

early January. So that is not an issue for 
290 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Las Vegas. So we can check that for that 

meeting, for the February meeting. 

 MS. MUNN: But the point is, if we 

are attempting to follow where our action is, 

the question then becomes why Las Vegas in 

February. And I am proposing -- I don't know 

what the timeline looks like, but we have 

Santa Susana on our scope here. And I would, 

one would anticipate there would be interest 

in that area. Certainly some development 

would have occurred by February. 

 DR. MELIUS: I know that you are 

tired of me agreeing with Wanda all the time 

but I would actually concur on that. And I 

think the other site that we have only been to 

once that we need to at least get on the 

radar, the questions about the weather also is 

Idaho. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Idaho in February, 

are you crazy? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Well we could 

think about Idaho for May of 2010. And will 
291 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the snow be out by May, Brad? 

 MS. BEACH: Not normally. 

 MR. CLAWSON: Early July. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: We will be riding 

snowmobiles. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Any other 

comments? We have heard a couple of 

suggestions for the California area for that 

February meeting. 

 MR. KATZ: And should we consider 

Augusta as a backup, considering -- Savannah 

River, I don't know, that is a big site and it 

has a petition which one would hope would be 

very far along at that point. 

 MS. BEACH: Well, I don't really 

want to forget about NTS because we do have 

quite a bit of action there. 

 MR. PRESLEY: We are going to be 

working on the NTS. 

 MS. BEACH: This is 2010, though. 

 MR. PRESLEY: February 10th. 

 MS. MUNN: We have been there three 
292 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

times. 

 MR. KATZ: So I will go with Santa 

Susana as a first choice. If there is a 

problem with that, I will come back for help. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Do we need to get 

the main meeting established or not? We can 

wait. 

 MR. KATZ: Not a location. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We have dates of 

19th through 21st of May 2010. 

 MR. KATZ: So the only other thing 

to do if you follow tradition of being more 

than a year out or it could wait until the 

next one, would be to try to pin down some 

possible dates for the August/September time 

range for 2010. Not a location but just 

dates. 

 So the only other thing we might do 

is try to pin down dates from the summer of 

2010. August/September sort of time frame 

would be your normal spread. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Well, I have got 
293 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

dates for May and what else do we have in the 

summer? Do we have anything in July? 

 MR. KATZ: Right. So it would be, 

it is very late in May, your dates. That is 

why I am saying through August/September. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Early August 

maybe. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Well that would be 

reasonable, I think. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: The 2010 dates 

that we have on the record so far are February 

9th through 11th. These are full Board 

meetings. We have a conference call 

tentatively for March 31, 2010. We have a May 

19 through 21, 2010 full Board meeting. I 

believe that is as far as we have scheduled. 

 DR. LOCKEY: Has something been 

decided for May? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: No. So if we 

have the dates scheduled a year out from now, 

we would looking now for probably early 

August, I would say. 
294 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. KATZ: That would be best, if 

August worked. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: That would be a 

good time to go to Idaho. 

 DR. LOCKEY: There is about a twoday window. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Ted do we need to 

get some specific dates? 

 MR. KATZ: Some specific dates 

would be good because that allows NIOSH to 

plan around that as well. 

 MS. BEACH: So the third, fourth, 

and fifth, or tenth, eleventh or twelfth, to 

keep us from traveling on a Monday or on a 

Sunday, excuse me? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: August, the week 

of the third, fourth, fifth, or tenth, 

eleventh, twelfth. 

 DR. LOCKEY: The tenth, eleventh, 

twelfth is better for me. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: What? 

 MR. KATZ: The tenth, eleventh, 
295 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

twelfth is better for the two Jims here. 

 MR. SCHOFIELD: Do you have a life? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, should we 

tentatively put down the tenth through 

twelfth? Does anyone have a major conflict on 

the tenth through the twelfth? 

 DR. ROESSLER: August? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: August 2010. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, we don't have to 

get a site for that time. All we need is a 

date. 

 MR. KATZ: That is correct. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, that takes 

care of our calendar for now. Josie, 

question? 

 MS. BEACH: Well, the only thing I 

want to go back to is I was trying to go 

online to look at the last Board Meeting 

minutes. I couldn't get online but I believe 

that we did actually did try to vote to remove 

Blockson from the table and if that vote 

failed, it is actually -- 
296 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, we will 

check. We will check the minutes. Did you 

find the minutes? 

 MS. BEACH: I couldn't get on the 

NIOSH website. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Well, I 

have the minutes on my -- 

 MR. KATZ: I am sure she is 

correct. I am going to correct that. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We are going to 

recess and we will reconvene later this 

evening for the public comment period at 7:00 

p.m. Thank you everyone. 

(Whereupon, the foregoing meeting went off the 

record at 4:38 p.m. and resumed at 

7:03 p.m.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Good evening 

everybody. Let's get underway. My name is 

Paul Ziemer. And I am the chair of the 

Advisory Board on Radiation Worker Health. 

 I want to take just a minute to 

tell you a little bit about this Board. We do 
297 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

not work for NIOSH. And we do not work for 

the Department of Labor. We are an independent 

group. Some of us, such as me, are retired. 

Some still are working. Well, we all think we 

are working but some are past the age of 

regular work. Most, I think everybody on this 

Board has some sort of a nuclear background. 

So we have some idea of what goes on in the 

nuclear world. 

 Our Board provides what we might 

call independent oversight of the Federal 

Program, the EEOICPA program, the compensation 

program for nuclear workers. 

 The purpose of our public meetings 

is to gain insight from the public, often 

claimants, not always, in terms of how the 

program seems to be working from their point 

of view or sometimes not working from their 

point of view. But some of you may wish to 

share personal experiences and so on. We are 

not here to deal with individual cases 

tonight. In fact, we cannot, in the public 
298 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

forum, answer questions about your particular 

case. There are individuals who can deal with 

that on an individual basis and we can point 

you to those. 

 But we are here to get some idea of 

the issues that you might feel are important. 

 And I think most of you, as I looked at the 

sheet here, most of your are Pantex people. 

So we are trying to gain some insight into the 

program. The compensation program with 

respect to the Pantex group. 

 We do have a time limit. In 

consideration for your fellow individuals who 

will also comment, we ask you to limit your 

comments to ten minutes. And that will still 

take us a couple of hours to get through all 

of the comments. 

 I usually tell folks that ten 

minutes is not a goal to be achieved. It is 

an upper limit. So, if you can be more 

concise than ten minutes, that will be 

helpful, particularly for those who are the 
299 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

end of the list and may be waiting quite a 

while to be heard. 

 I am going to go through the list, 

just in the order that people signed up, 

although I may make an exception to that. I 

understand there is one gentleman who has 

perhaps assisting nursing assistance tonight 

and may need to address us when, I don't 

believe he has arrived yet but in any event, 

we will, in consideration for his condition, 

put him in at that time. 

 We also have possibly some folks 

who will want to comment by phone. And there 

are open phone lines, so there are folks even 

now on the line who will be listening as well. 

 Now, before I begin with the list 

here, we do have a Fed at the table. Each 

committee of this sort, Board of this sort, 

has what is called a Designated Federal 

Official and he makes sure that we operate in 

accordance to all the appropriate regulations. 

 That is Mr. Katz. And he is going to make a 
300 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

few remarks about some ground rules as far as 

what goes into the public record and what will 

not go into the public record. So, here is 

Mr. Katz. 

 MR. KATZ: Right. Hi. I am Ted 

Katz. And welcome to everybody here. I just 

want to let you know as we have at the regular 

proceedings of the Board, we have a verbatim 

transcript that is being made of this session 

as well. So, everything that is said will be 

recorded and written up and will end up on a 

website that the Agency has, the NIOSH OCAS 

program has a web page with all sorts of 

information about this program. It includes 

the transcripts of these meetings, including 

the transcripts for the public comment 

sessions. 

 So all of you who come up and 

comment, everything you say will be recorded. 

And along with that, you should understand if 

you identify yourself, if you give us your 

name, your name will stay in the transcript 
301 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

for everyone else to read. 

 If you discuss personal things 

about yourself, your medical condition and so 

on, typically that will stay in the 

transcript, too. So that is your choice to 

make. 

 If you give information, however, 

about a third party, about someone else that 

you know, a friend, a coworker or whatever, 

the information will stay in the transcript 

but their personal identifying information 

will not. In other words, we will black out 

their names to protect their privacy. So you 

should know that. The full rules are on the 

back table, if you want to see the redaction 

rules or redaction policy as it is called. 

And it is also on the OCAS website, if you 

ever want to refer back to that, what were the 

rules about keeping in people's names and 

information versus taking it out. 

 But I just want to let you all know 

that. And we are ready to go. 
302 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you, Ted. 

 Bill Sachse is the individual I 

referred to and he has arrived. And I believe 

his nurse will be escorting him in the doorway 

here. Bill are you coming in? And if you 

would take Bill to the mic, please. And do we 

need a chair? We have got a chair coming. 

 MR. KATZ: This will work. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Bill, just before 

you came in, I did mention some of the ground 

rules and one of those is a ten minute time 

limit. So, if you will be cognizant of that, 

we would appreciate it. 

 MR. SACHSE: Thank you. You want 

me to go on? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: You can proceed. 

 Please proceed. 

 MR. SACHSE: I was at Pantex back 

in the 1945 and I was in metrology and then 

later I went to gauger valve. 

 And I was stricken with whatever I 

had in the old building, the old hospital when 
303 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

it was here out on Canyon Highway. And then I 

was in the Baptist Hospital and then I went to 

the other hospital over a period of time. 

That lasted about, all of about three or four 

days. And they -- I didn't get reimbursed for 

my sick leave but my sick leave went on the 

bill. 

 I went to Arkansas one time and I 

got sick during the latter part of that and 

the doctor didn't know what it was. So, he 

claimed he sent a sample to Florida. I never 

heard anything from it so I don't know if he 

had done that or not. And my doctor, Dr. 

Archer, he sent a sample to down around Austin 

and we never heard of that either. And it was 

-- 

 MS. SACHSE: Guys, I am his 

daughter. Let me talk to him right quick. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. 

 MR. SACHSE: And I was sick during 

that time, they took me to the hospital in the 

ambulance and brought me to town. 
304 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 And one day before the St. 

Anthony's, they put me in a tub of cold water. 

 And I stayed in there for quite a while. But 

after a while, it would go away. But I was in 

there a number of times with a chill. 

 And we had they were flu-like 

symptoms and doctors sent all his findings to 

the downstate, down around Austin or 

somewheres down there. And he never did hear 

from them. 

 And the FBI came to Dr. Archer's 

office one time and told him to look out and 

see if there was anything unusual. And he 

told him that if they, if they told someone 

and they told, and the FBI got a hold of it 

and they hit him up, he said he would have to 

deny it because they must have some pretty 

good claws in that. 

 And I got 100 degrees or more. I 

was up to Baptist St. Anthony's Hospital in 

the new room and then the old room and then 

St. Anthony's Hospital. And then I was in the 
305 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

one in Arkansas. 

 And that is, the Department I 

worked at, it was I worked in the Metrology 

Department. 

 MS. SACHSE: I am his daughter. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That's fine. 

 MS. SACHSE: Is that all right? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: If you would like 

to help read the statement that would be fine. 

 MS. SACHSE: Okay. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: But you will need 

to use the mic. Is that all right, Bill, if 

your granddaughter reads the statement for 

you? 

 MR. SACHSE: Yes, please. 

 MS. SACHSE: We talked about this 

last night. 

 MR. SACHSE: That's okay. 

 MS. SACHSE: My dad, like you said, 

worked at the in the metrology department. 

And he was exposed to unknown toxins. There 

was a label but didn't show what it was. And 
306 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

it caused him to have high temperatures, like 

100 plus temperatures. And when he went to 

the hospital, like he was saying, he would 

have to be iced down. 

 And so far he has had, he has been 

compensated for Part B and part of Part E and 

some claims are pending as of right now. And 

like he was saying about Dr. Archer, he 

diagnosed him with flu-like symptoms but it 

wasn't the flu. And he had a physical every 

year. And he sent all these to the National 

Medical Board in Austin and to Florida. And 

the FBI, like he said, came to Dr. Archer and 

told him that if he was to speak of the 

illness, that he would have to deny it. 

 And there was one occasion where 

Dad ran over 100 temperature and it was 

unexplained. So the guys in Arkansas sent it 

off but we never heard anything back from any 

of them. And some of the cleaning agents that 

 they would use like acetone and carbon 

tetracycline, they would use it on their hands 
307 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

with no type of protection for cleaning and 

that is all that he can really remember. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. 

 MS. SACHSE: Thank you, guys. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you very 

much and thank you, Bill, for being with us 

this evening. 

 Next we will hear from Carolyn, I 

believe it is Whitacre. Is it Whitacre? 

 MS. WHITACRE: Hello. My name is 

Carolyn Whitacre and I am a cancer survivor. 

 I was denied. I went through the 

application with NIOSH and I really wanted to 

figure out how they did the reconfiguration 

because I filled out all the paperwork. And 

he was like well, what building did you work 

in? Well, I worked in all of them. 

 I was on the line for 20 years and 

not only that, I worked in the layouts for 

another ten. So, I was, with radiation 

exposure and chemical exposure. And I worked, 

I didn't work in one building. I didn't work 
308 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

in one program. I worked assembly, 

disassembly. So how did I wind up in the less 

than 50 percent is totally ridiculous. 

 You know, I mean, I just don't know 

how they possibly did the reconstruction when, 

you know, I know it was in their eyes, maybe 

you think about a person working at, and some 

people did that work in one spot, did one job. 

 And you know, we got breaks, so you weren't 

exposed all of the time but I was one of the 

ones that worked in a special group. So, I 

worked everywhere and I was exposed to 

everything and I did all kinds of jobs. 

 And so, my conclusion is that since 

I have been watching this program and going to 

the meetings, that this particular group or 

this particular area, Amarillo, they seem to 

pay the deceased. And I don't think that is 

fair to the workers because we are the ones 

that were exposed. We are the ones getting 

sick and our kids or our husbands or wives, 

they might get compensated. But the person 
309 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that actually did the work and suffered, we 

are not being compensated. 

 And like I said, I just want to 

know how they did this reconstruction because 

it doesn't make sense to me and I did provide 

-- I don't know if they went back to the 

company, because I know the company didn't 

have records. They didn't have records, they 

couldn't possibly have a record of everything 

I did. Because like I said, I was there for 

20 years on the line and I did multi jobs, 

multi programs. 

 And until they went to computers, 

they couldn't possibly have a record of 

everything that they did. So I just, I think 

that the way they are doing it is not fair. 

It is not fair for us to put our time in that 

place. And you know, I know that radiation 

affects you 20 years down the road. It is 

sometimes an individual thing but on the 

average, after you have been exposed, it is 

like 20 years before the illness falls on you. 
310 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 And so how they can pick and choose 

compensation and how this group is 

reconstructing, I would like to know from that 

group how they did it. Because it doesn't 

make sense who they pay and who they don't 

pay. It just doesn't make sense. We are all 

suffering in different ways. 

 That beryllium, I think beryllium 

is associated with Pantex so those claims are 

paid faster than the cancer claim. They just 

go ahead and pay those claims. But the cancer 

people, we have suffered and we have had 

people who have died with cancer just like we 

have beryllium. So I don't know why they 

would treat one better than the other one. 

But they do get compensated faster. 

 And one other thing I wanted to 

mention was I wanted to mention something to 

Daisy. Well anyway, the breast cancer, well 

they won't specifically say breast cancer but 

that is basically we had women, that is where 

it attacked us. You know? But you can't put 
311 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

us with the regular population because there 

is so many of us that got breast cancer. So, 

it had to be associated with the job. 

 And my cancer was not related -- I 

mean, my doctors, the doctors in Amarillo, 

that is how they associate with Pantex. This 

is one of the better places to work. So my 

doctor and the cancer people never put 

anything about Pantex in my records. They 

would not do it. They would not say anything. 

 Some of them will but most of them will not 

mention Pantex as being the cause of our 

cancer. 

 But I don't have a family history 

of it so I feel like it is Pantex. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you, 

Carolyn. Next, Daisy Nichols. 

 MS. NICHOLS: My name is Daisy 

Nichols and I have worked at the plant for 24 

years. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Could you just, 

just pull the mic down just a little bit. 
312 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

That's good. 

 MS. NICHOLS: Okay. My name is 

Daisy Nichols and I worked at the plant 24 

years. In 1994, I come out on disability on 

my left breast. I lost it. Again in '97, I 

lost my right breast. But I have been filing 

all the claims but I have always been turned 

down. So, I don't know why. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay. Thank you, 

Daisy, for sharing that. 

 Brenda Britten. 

 MS. BRITTEN: I am Brenda Britten. 

 I went to work out there in 1971 as a clerk. 

 I worked upstairs and it was an area where 

the men could come to take a break and smoke. 

 And I had asthma so I didn't like working in 

the smoke. So, I went downstairs to the 

warehouse as a warehouse clerk. 

 And down there, we were working on 

the dock where everything was unloaded. 

Everything that went down to the assembly 

line. And we were told that we weren't 
313 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

exposed to anything. We were exposed to all 

the pits and all the radioactive containers 

coming off of the trucks. All the beryllium 

parts, we were never told what any of them 

were. 

 My best friend that I helped give a 

wedding shower for, helped give a baby shower 

for, when her baby was born, she had no hands 

and no feet. They wouldn't look at the fact, 

even the union wouldn't look at the fact of 

the amount of radiation she was receiving 

during her pregnancy. Nobody would talk about 

it. Even the union attorney would not discuss 

it. 

 And one time on break I asked, I am 

a convert to the Catholic faith and I asked 

one of the Hispanic guys that we played cards 

with, of course we are sitting with our legs 

around a pit can, you know, playing spades on 

our break time, and I asked him, I said, tell 

me how come you guys always, you Mexican guys 

always apply to work in the vaults, the north 
314 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

and south vaults down near the pit rooms. And 

he kind of got embarrassed and he looked 

around. He said, well, you are a Catholic. 

He said I can tell you. He said, we don't 

know why but we know that because all they 

used was rhythm method for birth control, he 

said, we know that when we apply to work down 

there, our wives don't get pregnant. 

 We know now how much radiation they 

were receiving. When I went back down there 

years later with a dosimeter, they were quite 

surprised at how much radiation I was 

receiving. And then I wasn't even a clerk. I 

was an inspector and I wasn't around nearly 

the amount of radiation. And they put 

dosimeters on those men and they started 

rotating them out like every three or four 

weeks. And those guys received that kind of 

radiation for years but they never 

acknowledged it. 

 Our engineers out there were 

engineers in name only. They only had high 
315 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

school educations, they played golf together 

or went to church together. They were not 

engineers. They were our safety engineers. 

 We had no oversight. When an 

explosion happened in '77 and three men were 

killed, Washington couldn't even come in. 

They couldn't even come in there. In the 

'80s, I believe I asked one of my supervisors 

for something and I said something about it 

being an OSHA regulation. And he laughed at 

me and he said, we don't have OSHA. We don't 

have any regulations. The State couldn't come 

in the, the federal government couldn't come 

in. Nobody had regulations over that 

facility. They meant it was run by Mason and 

Hanger and they had their own rules and 

regulations. And nobody had the authority to 

come in and look. 

 And after those men were killed, 

they said, they came down and they said, okay, 

we have got to have some minorities on the 

line. There may be some people from 
316 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Washington coming in. It was an all white 

male crew. There were no blacks, no browns, 

no women. There was, I believe there was one 

man that was a military black man. But they 

ran their own ship and they did what they 

wanted. And that is why a lot of times there 

are no records to what happened to us. We 

didn't have dosimeters. They were telling us 

we were not exposed to anything. 

 On chemicals, we worked barehanded, breathing them, absorbing them. We 

did not know what those chemicals were. We 

didn't know what an MSDS sheet was until way, 

way, later. We did not have the right to 

know. And if we asked too many questions, we 

were told by our supervisors, if you are 

uncomfortable working with the radiation, 

perhaps we should check your Q clearance. And 

so our jobs were threatened if we asked too 

many questions. 

 Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you for 
317 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

sharing that with us, Brenda. 

 Let's hear now from Sarah Ray. 

 MS. RAY: My name is Sarah Ray and 

for the most part, my comments are going to be 

fairly generic. 

 I am one of the three individuals 

who initiated the petition for the Pantex SEC. 

 I am also a former worker and a surviving 

spouse in a second generation weapons family. 

 I worked at the plant 14 and a half years. I 

worked there in 1974, primarily in 

manufacturing. And I left for about 20 years 

and had a really good time. And then my 

deceased thought it would be a good idea for 

me to get some retirement benefits, so I went 

back out in '94. And when I went out in '94, 

I worked in training. And one of my jobs was 

I learned all of the safety systems and am 

familiar with all of the safety systems and 

all of the buildings on the line. And I also 

worked a lot with plant standards and with 

SARS and various documents at the plant. 
318 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Also, when I was there in '74, I 

was very familiar with and worked with the red 

phone. I also worked with the DCR, which is a 

Daily Change Report, which has an exact record 

of everything, every accountable item at the 

plant, what happens to it when it comes in and 

out. So, I am very much in disagreement with 

the Site Profile that says that all of the 

weapons, the older weapons, all of the 

dismantlement was completed before, I believe, 

it was 1962. That is a very erroneous 

statement. I can tell you the program numbers 

and many people can't. But I know for a fact 

that the DCR and things like the manufacturing 

activity calendar are very important 

information to look at, when you are trying to 

put together what happened in the early days. 

 Our SEC petition is for 1951 to 

1991 and I feel like that the Site Profile 

which is basically a snapshot in time today, 

and a very nice snapshot because it is an 

exact carbon copy to those of you who remember 
319 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

what a carbon copy is, it is an exact copy, a 

duplicate of rhetoric to reality. A very 

nicely done document that tells you what it is 

today. 

 The facilities that were in use at 

the time of our SEC petition, the time frame 

that it covers, there were basically two baytype facilities and one older cell facility. 

That is all of these facilities, not a single 

one would in any way look like the diagrams of 

the facilities that are shown in the Site 

Profile. So, I have a great deal of 

opposition to the current site profile. 

 Many of the things about the comp 

program are upsetting to me and to other 

surviving families and to workers. I have 

worked with a lot of people and tried to help 

them, along with David Pompa. He is kind of a 

buddy. I always tell them I am not a union 

worker but I am the best nonunion member that 

I have. The length of time to process a claim 

is usually beyond the remaining years of the 
320 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

older workers. I know many people who can 

barely afford their homes. Many, many medical 

problems, paying for illnesses, family 

members. I mean, the money of our older 

workers is just being depleted because they 

are having to take care of themselves and 

their families. And their illnesses that 

basically come, as far as I am concerned, from 

their employment at the plant are killing 

them. But along the way, it is going to strip 

them of all of their money. 

 It is true that it seems to be 

easier to get a claim on a deceased person 

paid instead of a live worker. I have heard 

that many many times. Many people have 

laughed and said they are just waiting for me 

to die. It is almost as if the powers that 

be, and I have commented to this, actually 

asked Dr. Laurence Fuortes if somewhere there 

is a list. And it is a mortality chart. How 

long after exposure is Joe going to die? 

 Okay, if Joe dies and he matches 
321 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that mortality list, then you check him off 

and you pay him. They don't do that for the 

living workers. And I think Carolyn commented 

about that. 

 Workers are thought of as 

expendable. The first time it hit me what my 

husband, Michael, who died from lung cancer at 

the age of 54, after living only three months 

with cancer, it hit me that he was expendable. 

 That someone thought it was fine for him to 

have worked on the program that he did, which 

was well known for tritium releases. And some 

of his coworkers told me that he often talked 

with them about exposures that he had had and 

releases he had been involved in. 

 Public information supports the 

fact that the only people, I really feel this 

that this is true, the only people who are 

getting rich because of the comp program are 

the groups like NIOSH, Oak Ridge, and possibly 

the DOL claims examiners at the various 

levels. 
322 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 It is disturbing when I read about 

conflict of interest within the ranks of NIOSH 

and Oak Ridge. Many of the people working on 

the dose reconstruction program have had 

previous involvement in the radiation 

protection programs at the Department of 

Energy sites or currently receive DOE funding. 

And I knew a 150 million dollar contract was 

just signed with Oak Ridge. 

 Many people have been hired to 

crunch numbers, whether they are doing dose 

reconstructions or just determining percentage 

to pay someone under Subpart E. The sad 

reality to me is that the human part of the 

program, the workers themselves, seems to have 

been virtually ignored. The workers tell 

their stories to seemingly deaf ears and many 

people here tonight have commented about this. 

 As more and more claims are denied 

over, and over, and over again, in a previous 

meeting hosted by NIOSH representatives in 

Amarillo, the audience was told by NIOSH reps 
323 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that it was not their job to do research and 

they were not medical doctors and did not, 

could not consider the medical evidence on a 

claim. This was in part a response to a 

question from a worker about published medical 

statistics that show radiation is the primary 

cause of thyroid cancer. 

 It is morally wrong to have a 

process that omits human when the human is the 

reason for the program. The current Pantex 

site profile is a wonderful snapshot in time, 

as I have already said. The sad thing is that 

the Site Profile represents today and it is 

being used against the workers and relied upon 

almost totally by NIOSH and the Department of 

Labor when they do the dose reconstructions 

and evaluate the claims. 

 The SEC period noted in our 

petition is 1950 to 1991 or 1951 through 1991. 

 During this time frame, facilities, weapons 

systems, and activities were quite different 

than they are today. Only one cell area and 
324 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

one or two bay arrangements were in use during 

the time frame, stated in our petition. The 

safety systems were quite different than those 

in place today and the rad safety practices 

barely existed. 

 The RADCON manual, and you all know 

this, I am sure, but that did not even come 

about until 1993 or 1994. And that 

standardized the rad safety practices across 

the weapons complex. 

 The Tiger Team report in 1990 over 

and over again called the plant because of rad 

safety and training practices. There were 

many, many problems documented. The 

dosimeters, which a weapons engineer recently 

told me, protected the workers. So you can 

see there is a lack of understanding on what a 

dosimeter does. Because the dosimeter does 

not protect the workers. 

 They were designed though, this 

engineer told me, only to detect an acute 

release. There are thousands of differences 
325 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that come to mind when I think about the Site 

Profile as it is and the reality of the days 

that I know from 1970s. 

 The following is from a blog 

posting that I read today and I am just 

quoting but I agree with it. "Dose 

reconstruction is a farce. It is conducted 

using 'Voodoo Statistics' based on what 

appears to be an unsupported method of 

measurement. If an accurate radiation dose 

was not 'constructed' in the first place, then 

how can it be 'reconstructed?'" 

 I have dose records, my personal 

records and those of my husband, Mike, that 

state all doses were re-estimated, this means 

changed, in 1990. I have never shared these 

with anyone. They are in a big box that 

weighs about 60 pounds that I keep up on a 

shelf. 

 Of concern also is the fact that 

the only review of the Pantex SEC I am aware 

of was held in California. I would like to 
326 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

ask this audience, the people present, how 

many of them were notified of that meeting to 

discuss our SEC? 

 I don't see a single hand. Did 

mine go up? No, it did not. As an SEC 

petitioner, I did not receive any notice. I 

never receive notices. 

 How many would have gone? How many 

could have gone financially, time-wise? 

 (Show of hands.) 

 MS. RAY: If I could have, I would 

have gone. But usually the notifications come 

very late, if at all. 

 As I just said, I am an SEC 

petitioner. I have rarely received any 

notices or any information from NIOSH. I am 

being lenient when I say rarely. The truer 

word would probably be never. I ask if an 

organization that cannot handle a simple 

mailing to notify workers or SEC petitioners 

of a meeting should be given the role and the 

sole responsibility. Without question there 
327 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

is no oversight for NIOSH and the people who 

do the dose reconstructions. We don't have 

checks and balances for them. Should they be 

the ones that we are allowing to do the dose 

reconstructions? I question that. 

 Pantex workers and weapons workers 

as a whole need and should receive fair 

treatment. These men and women proudly served 

their country during the cold war. Much like 

our returning veterans, they are being 

ignored. It is always easier to ignore 

something unpleasant, as long as it does not 

affect you or your family. 

 It has affected my family. My 

husband, Michael, died of lung cancer at the 

age of 54, after working 35 years in the 

weapons complex. The first thing Mike's 

cancer doctor asked him when he went in, 

initially was, well, tell me about your 

radiation exposures at Pantex. That kind of 

takes you aback. We just found out we have 

cancer. We are not ready to answer any 
328 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

questions. 

 My brother-in-law died from 

pancreatic cancer in October. My sister 

raised a little girl, my niece, whose mom 

worked in the weapons complex and died of 

breast cancer when the child was barely three 

years old. Her claim has been denied over and 

over again. My family is not the only family 

affected. There are many good people just 

like us. 

 The present system is broken, as 

far as the worker is concerned. The original 

intent of the comp program has long been 

forgotten. Workers feel that they have been 

lied to. What was explained to them in 2000 

when the program was announced with the DOE as 

a fair program designed to help them has 

vanished. It has become a means of long-term 

employment for workers within the many groups 

hired to fight or disprove workers claims. 

 Please put the worker back into the 

claims program. Make them first and honor the 
329 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

workers, as they have honored their country by 

performing their work to the best of their 

abilities in often hazardous environments of 

the nuclear weapons complex. Thank you. 

 (Applause.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I must express 

regret that the Pantex workers were not made 

aware of that particular thing. But I also 

want you to know now that the Board has now 

established a Pantex Work Group which is just 

getting underway and we will certainly ask 

that Work Group to keep you informed of all of 

their meetings. 

 We currently are struggling a bit 

with some of the classification issues in 

terms of having our own Board Work Group 

address the issues of Pantex. But hopefully, 

those will be overcome. We will keep your 

group informed of when we meet. 

 I am talking about a Board Work 

Group. But our practice is always to include 

the petitioners. They are welcome to 
330 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

personally attend our Work Group meetings or 

to attend by phone. We do keep transcripts, 

open transcripts of those meetings as well. 

 We obviously are going to be 

working around some, I don't want to call them 

issues, necessarily, but some concerns as to 

how we will handle the classified information 

at Pantex. But we will solve that problem. 

And we are just getting under way of not only 

a review of the Site Profile but the SEC 

petition and related matters. 

 So that will be an ongoing effort 

for this Board and we will look for your 

participation in that as well. 

 And maybe, I am trying to remember 

who is chairing Pantex? It is Brad Clawson. 

And Brad will touch base with you yet this 

evening, if you will stay at the end and make 

sure we have your email address and so on, so 

we can be in contact. 

 MR. CLAWSON: I've already got her 

email. 
331 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, he is way 

ahead of me. Okay. Next let's hear from 

[identifying information redacted]. And are 

you, Sarah -- 

 MS. RAY: I'm Sarah. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: You are going to 

-- okay, I saw your name here again and I got 

confused for a moment. Please proceed. 

 MS. RAY: I was called by the wife 

of a sick worker this morning and she asked if 

I would make a statement for her and told me 

what to say. 

 Her husband is currently at MD 

Anderson and she had a conflict tonight so she 

could not be here. What she told me and 

stressed she just wants to make her record of 

this statement. 

 Her husband [identifying 

information redacted] has worked in the 1261 

warehouse for 16 years. This is the only job 

he has ever had at Pantex. He has sarcoma in 

the sinus area and had extensive surgery on 
332 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

April first. They are not really sure what is 

happening but as I understand it, they removed 

the pallet of his mouth and it is a very 

horrendous surgery. But she just wants to go 

on record. 

 But that is the statement. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. Then, 

Gary Kennedy. 

 MR. KENNEDY: My name is Gary 

Kennedy. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Gary, if you pull 

the mic up a little bit, you may be a little 

taller than some of our other speakers there. 

 We need to get you on the transcript here. 

 MR. KENNEDY: I'm sorry I can't 

talk any louder but this is -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That's fine. We 

will pick you up with the mic here. 

 MR. KENNEDY: This is a result of a 

part of my condition. I feel kind of guilty 

being here after seeing Sachse. I also worked 

in metrology. I worked at Pantex from 1966 to 
333 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

1982. I left to go into business for myself 

and subsequently married someone who worked at 

Pantex. And we moved to Boulder, Colorado in 

1998. 

 Upon arriving there, I lost my 

voice. Having no idea what was going on, I 

went to the doctors in Boulder, they did the 

x-rays and all of that and discovered I had 

granulomas on the left vocal chord. I 

subsequently had eight surgeries on my left 

vocal chord every six months, which left me 

with not much of a voice. 

 They also discovered I had three 

spots on my left lung. At the time they 

diagnosed it as it must have been tuberculosis 

scarring. Of course, I have never had 

tuberculosis but that was their only 

explanation. 

 After the eight surgeries, after 

the last one, the voice got a little bit 

better and allowed me to talk much better than 

I am now. 
334 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 I went back to school and got my 

teaching certification and started teaching 

electronics and computer maintenance in 

Irving, Texas at a science academy in North 

Lake College. I taught there until November 

the 15th of '07. 

 But in '04 I got a letter from a 

University in Tennessee, I don't remember the 

name of it, but they wanted to me to go to a 

clinic in Dallas for testing for beryllium 

disease. So, I went not even knowing what 

beryllium disease was, of course. I was 

shocked about three weeks to get a letter back 

notifying me that that is what I had. 

 So they sent me to National Jewish, 

where they did lung biopsies and confirmed 

that I had three large masses of tumors in my 

left lung and millions of microscopic tumors 

in both lungs. 

 I go back to National Jewish every 

four months now but as you know, it is an 

incurable and terminal illness. There is 
335 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

nothing they can do for me except keep me 

hopped up on steroids, which gave me little 

fat cheeks. I used to weigh about 50 pounds 

less than I do now. But that is what I have 

had to endure. 

 I learned from Sarah, who I went to 

high school with and have known for a long 

time, -- 

 MS. RAY: Junior high, too. 

 MR. KENNEDY: Junior high. Yes, 

and her sister, both we were on the band 

together. She told me about the compensation 

program. So, I applied. And I guess after 

hearing the testimony of some of these other 

people, I was very fortunate because I had the 

diagnosis of chronic beryllium disease from 

National Jewish and there was no question 

about it. 

 I applied for the Part B 

compensation and it languished for a year. I 

would call and I would have a different claims 

examiner every time I called. I guess in 
336 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

another way I am fortunate because my sister 

is a doctor of psychology and was one of 

Hillary Clinton's friends and worked in the 

campaign with her and is very politically 

connected in New Jersey. I finally called her 

and said I hate to bother you but can you help 

me? She said of course, the governor is 

sitting here in my house today. 

 I talked to him and it was amazing. 

 This was on Friday. And on Wednesday, the 

Department of Labor from Denver called me and 

said your paperwork is on the way, sign it and 

get it back and we will get you paid. 

 That is so wrong. So wrong. 

 This same process has gone on ever 

since, well, for the last four years. I 

finally got paid for an impairment, a 50 

percent impairment. 

 But finally in '07, November 15th 

of '07, Dr. Mayer at National Jewish said no 

more. You can't go on. Because I was off 

from school so much and it wasn't fair to my 
337 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

kids. And so I had to take a medical 

disability. 

 Well, the thing that really makes 

me angry is this document right here, Official 

Report of Proceedings Before the Final 

Adjudication Branch of the Department of Labor 

in the Matter of Gary B. Kennedy. I had filed 

for lost wages effective the day I was put on 

disability, permanent disability. This case 

has drug on now for a year and a half. I 

thought I could do it myself. I finally got a 

rejection or denial as they call it for lost 

wages because I couldn't prove a year's worth 

of losses for '08. I gave them the 

retirement, the disability retirement forms, 

the last pay forms of the school district. 

They said well you have to wait a year. And I 

said where in your documents or the law does 

it say you have to wait a year? And it said 

well, it doesn't but you have to prove lost 

wages for a year. I said I gave you all that 

documentation. So, I requested a hearing and 
338 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

this is the result of the hearing. 

 The amazing part, I told the 

representative that no where in the document 

or any of the law does it say you have to wait 

a year to collect lost wages. And she says 

well, it doesn't. Well, as we went through 

the hearing, here is the statement that she 

said. Well, sometimes they use the 

regulations, sometimes they don't. It is an 

office to office choice. I can't speak for 

the Denver office, I don't work in the Denver 

office. 

 The lack of transparency in this 

whole process is appalling to me. Since I 

started, I have had at least a half a dozen 

claims examiners and we have to start all over 

every time. They told me in the Denver office 

that no one had ever filed or ever collected 

lost wages before. No one, until now. 

 Two weeks ago, I finally broke down 

and called my sister again. I didn't want to. 

 She made a couple of phone calls. The next 
339 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Monday, Monday of the week, I got the approval 

for lost wages. 

 Again, that is so wrong. So wrong. 

 What about these people here that don't have 

any political connections? They languish in 

the system forever. Like Sarah said, until 

they die. Then maybe you all will collect it. 

 I guess I am fortunate I am still vertical. 

But there is something wrong with the system, 

the claims system. Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Gary, thank you 

for sharing that with us. 

 David Pompa. David, are you here? 

 MR. POMPA: Yes, thank you and 

Welcome to Amarillo. As the Middle Trace 

Consulate Safety Officer I represent the Union 

at Pantex. I want to welcome you. And we 

have met before. I have met several of you. 

We met before at Pantex and also met with the 

NIOSH, Mark Rolfes and other representatives 

and traveled to NIOSH to speak on behalf of 

the workers at Pantex. 
340 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 But I would like to encourage the 

workers. Sometimes, you know, for years, we 

were informed not to say certain things. For 

example, the pit or the building I worked in, 

these gentlemen and ladies need to know how 

you did the work and how you handled the work 

or how you handled the pit. It is okay to say 

pit. I can see the look on your face. 

 I know for years, you were told you 

can't say this, you can't say that. But it's 

okay. And I talked to [identifying 

information redacted] who is security. It is 

okay to open up a little bit and the Advisory 

Board needs to know how we used to do the work 

and how close we were with that working items 

and how you held it in your hand and how you 

held it on your lap and you cleaned it and 

things like that. So it is okay to say 

Building-1264 and pit. And it is good to see 

everyone here. 

 It is okay if we can even say, the, 

tritium bottle, we just cannot mention the 
341 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

function of the item associated with the 

weapon. 

 Like I said, I have met and have 

traveled to National, I mean to Jewish several 

times and spoken on behalf of the workers. I 

am going to make my report real short and 

brief and I would like to give five minutes of 

my time, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Daniel Sapeda who 

did not sign in, if that is okay. 

 NIOSH has interviewed several 

former workers who explained in detail how the 

work was assembled, disassembled, the nuclear 

weapons was accomplished. Then the 1950 to 

the 1990s and during his interviews, the 

former workers which were called to Pantex 

explained how they held the weapons and how 

they assembled and disassembled the weapons, 

especially the radiological weapon components 

were handled by hand and close to their 

bodies. 

 During previous interviews with the 

former production workers, comments were made 
342 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to the effect that the safety factors were not 

in place as they are today. And we know that. 

 I would ask in the future the Advisory Board 

and NIOSH will come to a positive decision and 

make the Pantex plan a Special Exposure 

Cohort. Thank you. And I would like to yield 

five minutes to Daniel Sapeda. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And you may need 

to adjust the mic a little bit for him. Sir, 

if you would give us your name for the record, 

please. 

 MR. SAPEDA: Daniel Sapeda. I was 

a production technician for about 11 years and 

then I was a supervisor for about five years 

on the line. And I worked around all the 

buildings and utilities. I would work 

utilities for another 15 years. And I went 

into all of the buildings when we were having 

problems. 

 I am also a cancer survivor. I am 

going through some chemotherapy right now. And 

as a matter of fact today, I was in the 
343 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

hospital but I heard about it on TV so I 

thought I would come over here and talk to you 

all. 

 My claim has been denied by NIOSH 

and I have sent several claims in and 

everything has been denied. They said that 

they weren't covering prostate cancer. But I 

had cancer in my legs, and my spine, and my 

ribs, and my lymph nodes. And I have had a 

rough time. This is not what I had intended 

for retirement, you know. I thought I was 

going to have a good time after working out 

there 35 years but I have been having a rough 

time. And the money has been spent and I just 

gave up on my claims and stuff like that 

because I turned everything that I had to turn 

in. And I didn't hear anything then they 

finally sent me that they had denied my claim 

and I didn't know why. 

 And I talked to David Pompa and I 

have gone to several meetings and no one has 

really helped me. And I really need help 
344 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

because my money is going out. And I am 

getting older. I am 71 years old and my money 

is going out and I still have a wife and I 

still have a house. I still have payments. 

And my medical bills, I am always buying 

medical bills, I mean paying medical bills, 

and going to the hospital. 

 So, it has been a tough life. So I 

don't know who to talk to about my claims 

anymore because I have exhausted everything 

that I could do on my own. I don't have 

anybody to really help me and I haven't had 

anybody to help me. David has tried and some 

of the people at the plant have tried but that 

is about it. 

 Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you for 

sharing that with us, Daniel. 

 The next person is Don Ray. Don? 

 MR. RAY: My name is Don Ray and I 

worked at the Pantex plant from '81 until 

2005. I was a production technician. I 
345 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

worked down where David did and Mr. Sapeda. 

We worked in that area. 

 We worked multiple programs. We 

worked a lot of different programs and they 

wanted us to reconstruct some of the 

information they lost on our dosimeters. I 

worked as many as four different buildings in 

one day, four different programs. We moved 

around a lot. We were used on a lot of 

different programs. So there was no way that 

I could see that we could ever guess about our 

radiation exposures. 

 They said coming to ask us if we 

could reconstruct two years. They had lost 

that information. But that was impossible. 

And I never did hear what happened on it. 

 Our dosimeters were little. 

Dosimeters that were worn on the collar. Just 

one dosimeter. Nobody ever told us which way 

to turn it. Sometimes that wind would be down 

so there was nothing happening. You know, no 

readings. Some of the guys in one of the 
346 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

programs because they got concerned about it, 

they moved it to their waist. In one month, 

they had to move them because the readings 

were so high. 

 So, were they being careless with 

the truth on some of this? How much can you 

reconstruct when you don't have something to 

work with? 

 When these meetings first started, 

I made all of them for a while. Nothing ever 

changed. I was asked a lot of questions. I 

answered a lot of questions. Nothing changed. 

 One time I asked them about the dosimeters. 

The DOE wouldn't talk to me. And I was a 

production technician so I went to talk to 

them. And they were asking, there was a lot 

of questions on radiation. I told them I 

wasn't too worried about being able to pass a 

test on radiation. What I was concerned 

about, I took my little dosimeter, and I said 

is this the best you can give me? The people 

reading it, how qualified are they to read it? 
347 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 And do you have the equipment, the best 

equipment to read it? So we will have a good 

positive answer, you know, when they say hey, 

your count is too high so we have to move you. 

And then like if it was late in the year 

around December, January the first, your 

readings, you were fine, you would go right 

back where you were working. 

 Used to be a lot of people wouldn't 

talk about this, these workers, because we 

were told we can't discuss any of it. A lot 

of the older people, their families had no 

idea what they did. They knew they went out 

there. And I know my mom, she said, there are 

some people calling me and asking me what you 

do. I didn't have any idea on what to tell 

them. I said mom, you don't tell them 

anything. You don't know. 

 So where are we going with all the 

meetings we are having? Where are we going? 

What are we doing? Are we helping anybody? 

So far, I haven't had a problem yet. When 
348 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

does mine start? I am a year younger than Mr. 

Sapeda. Will mine start next year? We just 

don't know. I don't know. 

 Thank you for your time. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. All 

right, Floyd Wiley. 

 MR. WILEY: I am Floyd Wiley and I 

went to work for Pantex. I was recruited by 

[identifying information redacted], who was 

the Department Superintendent. I worked for 

the railroad prior to that and through a 

friend that worked for Pantex, he put 

[identifying information redacted] in touch 

with me and they called me to come out and go 

to work. The doctor turned me down and so I 

left and he called me and I went back to my 

regular job in Wichita Falls and he called me 

and said come back up here. We want you to go 

to work. We have got a job for you. 

 And so I came. I took him at his 

word and I came back up here. I cleared in 

six weeks when I was called in to 
349 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

[identifying information redacted]'s office, 

he said Floyd, I want you to go down there and 

learn everything that you can about this plant 

because if you are the man I think you are, we 

have got a job for you. It is going to be 

approximately two years but I have got a job 

for you. 

 And I took him at his word and I 

went down on the line and then I begin to work 

as a production assembler. We called them 

assemblers then. I worked two years or a year 

and three months as an assembler. I worked on 

every program that was going then. We were 

running six Gravel Gerties, which we called 

the cells, and we were working 26 building 

doing the mechanical assembly on the 31 

program because it didn't have any plutonium. 

 The last job that I had as an 

assembler, I tore down Mark-VIs. I can tell 

you exactly how many of them but you should 

know that already. Incidentally, I have been 

on the internet. I know most of your people's 
350 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

names. I am terribly disappointed that Larry 

Elliott didn't come because I never have been 

able to see him. 

 But anyway, when I was promoted, I 

worked every program. I started three or four 

new programs from scratch; 57 was one I was 

hired to work. I started it from scratch, 

stayed on it for one year, and they took it to 

Burlington because we were having to start 

another program and we didn't have room for 

it. And I can tell you exactly how many 57s 

were built. It had to tritium bottles and 

this goes into thousands of tritium bottles 

that we handled. When I left handling the 

tritium bay, I assembled, or my people 

assembled the tritium bottles, put the squib 

valves on them. In those days, you had to put 

the squib on them here because you couldn't 

transport them. 

 And when I left down there, I had 

records of every one of them. And I just 

scanned the pages, counted one page, and 
351 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

multiplied by the pages. And there was 4500 

tritium bottles went through that bay in one 

year. And I know you all don't like to talk 

numbers but I am not afraid to talk numbers. 

You can't do anything to me. I am 83 years 

old. I had cancer of the prostate in 1990. I 

am not here to hack my claim because some of 

you all should know my name. I have talked to 

enough people. 

 But these people like Danny Sapeda, 

he worked for me and I probably told him there 

is nothing wrong with this. I have been 

eating it for 30 years. I have eaten enough 

depleted uranium, I have swept it off the 

floor and put it in a bag and sent it to the 

burning grounds. We buried it in the ground 

out there. I mean, and then in the later 

years, safety would come down and pick the bag 

up and I don't know what they did with it. 

 But the big problem is what these 

people are telling you is that the dose 

reconstruction. Each bay down there is an 
352 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

entity in itself. A man could be working this 

bay here for 20 years and never even be 

subjected to any radiation. And a man would 

be working this bay over here and be subjected 

to any amount, probably up to five rem because 

that was what the law required then. We had 

to stay below five rem a year. 

 And you know, when I see a man like 

Danny Sapeda that worked for me and I told him 

there wasn't any danger, it brings tears to my 

eyes because I couldn't even recognize him. 

And Sachse, I worked side-by-side with Sachse, 

one of the finest men I ever knew. I wouldn't 

hardly even know him and to see him in the 

condition he is in. I worked with -- he is the 

only one of three that has Parkinson's 

symptoms. [identifying information redacted] 

has Parkinson's symptoms and my senior moments 

got in, I have lost one of the names. It is 

[identifying information redacted]. He is in 

a veteran's hospital with Parkinson's 

symptoms. 
353 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 One of my clerks, which was 

[identifying information redacted]'s I believe 

he is your brother-in-law, he was my boss. 

His wife sat at my desk after I left it within 

ten feet of where we buried plutonium in we 

had the cell five or six, whichever cell it 

was, I can't remember when we had that spill, 

we run the plutonium out. We run the shower 

water under my desk and out into the yard and 

buried it in the ground. And about late '86, 

they come out there and dug a hole you could 

put the whole building in. And they don't 

give these people any radiation coverage on 

the dose reconstructions for tritium. They 

tell you tritium goes through your body 

almost, you know, within hours. But if you 

are subjected to tritium eight hours a day or 

six hours a day for 20 years on a continual 

basis, it is not going through your body. 

Every time one goes through, another one comes 

in. And you know, there is no one knows how 

much tritium them bottles leaked. Every one 
354 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

of them leaked. Every one that I have ever 

put on a unit leaked. When we brought the 57s 

back in and began to disassemble them, there 

would be about one out of five that we would 

have to put on body suits and scuba gear in 

order to disassemble it. I never would even 

go in there. They would give me a body suit 

and I wouldn't even go in there, let the 

operators go in there and do their work 

because you would only have as many people in 

there. I mean, you don't want to subject any 

more people to it than you have to. 

 And you know, I could stand here 

and talk to you all night. Like I said, I 

know most of your names and I would love to 

talk to you personally, face-to-face. I would 

rather talk to Larry Elliott face-to-face. 

But I -- 

 MR. POMPA: What year did you start 

at the plant? 

 MR. WILEY: I started in '58. I 

had my cancer in 1990 and went on sick leave 
355 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

and having a terrible time. I lost control of 

my bladder, impotent, didn't have a job, and 

went to my doctor and told him I was suicidal. 

 He sent me to a psychiatrist and he wrote the 

company and the next week or so I got a letter 

from them saying that my badge had been 

cleared and there was no job for me at any 

time in Pantex. 

 So, basically, I was fired because 

I could still be working there right today. I 

certainly could have worked until I was 70. 

But that is, I don't want to get personal. My 

person has nothing to do with it. 

 The first dose reconstruction they 

give me was 42 percent, 43 percent. The 

second one they give me was 42 percent. They 

have got the thing back right now to do the 

third one because I have had five skin cancers 

since then. I had a kidney cancer, kidney 

removed in 1995. And I am fortunate to be 

here. I thank the Lord each minute that I 

draw a breath. 
356 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 And as far as getting my $150,000, 

you know, I will flip a coin with you for 

that. That is a 50 percent chance. But these 

people that worked for me like Danny, and 

there is a lot of others, it just tears my 

heart out every time I pick up a newspaper and 

read where another one of them has died. And 

all that it says in there, he worked 40 years 

for Pantex. He worked 30 years for Pantex. 

His family don't even know what he did. They 

don't know where he was. 

 When I was a supervisor, I could go 

to Albuquerque. I could catch a plane in 

Albuquerque at 4:00 in the morning, come back 

at 5:00 that evening, my wife would never even 

known I had been out of town. 

 But the real thing is the dose 

reconstruction cannot be, it can't be 

accomplished like you people are being told it 

is. It simply cannot because there was 

absolutely no records kept until at least 

1966. And there was no such thing as a 
357 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

dosimeter until about 1974. They did have 

film badges. They would bring a film badge 

down and they would stick it up on the wall. 

And it would stay there for a month and they 

could come down, take it, and send it in to 

get it read. 

 And there might be a dozen 

different programs in there in a month. I 

mean, we are working out of six bays and we 

are running eight or ten programs. So, we 

moved them in, we moved them out, we jockeyed 

them around. Some of them we could complete 

in three months, complete the whole year's 

worth in three months. Some of them we had to 

work continually. We had to work 68 for 18 

years. 

 I started with a 68 program on a 

development with [identifying information 

redacted], who was the nuclear safety director 

or whatever you call him whenever he left. He 

has already been compensated. And I was in 

the bay a hundred times for every one that he 
358 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

was ever in. But that doesn't matter to me. 

 But the thing of it is that I run 

that program and under development of totally 

top secret. It had a private building where 

you couldn't even enter it without a need to 

know. And then I worked, when I say I worked, 

I didn't work, I mean, I supervised my people, 

but with this job, a supervisor has to be in 

the bay. At one time we considered putting a 

supervisor in every bay because we almost had 

a catastrophe on 57 and almost blew the 

panhandle of Texas off the map. 

 But I think that is my story for 

you. And I thank you very much. And I would 

be happy to talk to any of you face to face 

any time, any where. This started with me in 

2001. [identifying information redacted] had 

the meeting and he come over and told me to 

write [identifying information redacted] a 

letter telling him my experience because they 

would like to know about it. So I sat down 

and wrote a letter. I have got a handwritten 
359 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

copy of it out in my car, if you would like to 

see it. And I never did hear a word from 

[identifying information redacted] or anyone 

else. This was in 2001 is when I filed my 

claim was in 2001 and it hasn't been paid yet. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you very 

much. And there is Mr. Elliott to say hello 

to you right there. 

 (Applause.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: [identifying 

information redacted], is it [identifying 

information redacted] or [identifying 

information redacted]? Oh, [identifying 

information redacted] did not come. Okay. I 

need the second page of the listings here. 

Hold on just a moment. 

 [identifying information redacted] 

is not here. While we are fetching the next 

page, are there any folks on the telephone 

lines that are going to want to address the 

assembly this evening? 

 I was asking if anyone on the phone 
360 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

lines were wanting to address the assembly 

this evening? We are not quite ready for them 

but I wanted to see if there were any. 

Apparently not. 

 Okay, Sue Mathiasmeier. Have I 

pronounced that correctly? Okay, you are 

going to get a little help there. Okay, 

sounds good. 

 MS. MATHIASMEIER: I have come to 

speak for the dead, not the for the living. I 

brought my husband's death certificate. He 

died October 5, 2008 of recurrent malignant 

pleural effusion and malignant ampullary 

adenocarcinoma. He was lucky because he 

worked at Burlington and that saint among men, 

Dr. Laurence Fuortes, helped us get his 

compensation. 

 But I will tell you, even when you 

get the compensation, you have nothing. Like 

somebody, Gary I think said, they change 

constantly in Denver. We wouldn't -- he would 

try to call one of his people, oh, you are 
361 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

with somebody else now. You would have to go 

through the whole thing again. They would 

approve your thing, send it to Podunk, 

Kentucky which is where the insurance is paid 

out of and they would deny it. And they told 

us we can't talk to the people in Kentucky. 

So we would have to go back over and over 

again. 

 He died what six, seven months ago? 

 There are still two things that they denied 

there. I owe $2,000 to MD Anderson and to the 

Veteran's Hospital because, what was he in the 

hospital for? He died of cancer. But they 

pick and choose what they want to pay. 

 It is the most corrupt system I 

have ever seen in my life and it is providing 

jobs for people who shouldn't have them. 

 But I went to work at Pantex. I 

have worked at Pantex, Rocky Flats, and LANL. 

 I have done this for 30 some odd years. All 

of it line work. When I went down in '75, if 

somebody can tell me that a film badge is the 
362 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

dosimeter, I will put in with you that is not 

what it is. And that is all we had. 

 And they wouldn't even pick them 

up. I know the guys would call and they would 

say, well we have been on ours for six months. 

 Are you ever going to come down and get them 

and read them? What were they reading anyway? 

 I mean, you have to have a catastrophic 

something that even would show. And it wasn't 

measuring anything. We finally got those 

little bitty ones with just the one little 

thing on it. You had to put it on your 

collar. 

 One of the first jobs I did on the 

line and I worked around where Brenda did and 

those rooms where we had the pits, they would 

bring 16 pits in and open them all. Those 

were those ALR8 cans. They are just cans and 

open them out. Well, us women, you had to 

hold it to you. They had never had aprons, 

lead aprons. We didn't have lead aprons. We 

didn't have what's the thing that goes on the 
363 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

face, respirators. We didn't have anything 

and we made them get us lead aprons. And they 

made us put the dosimeters behind our lead 

aprons because we would have to put them in 

our lap and roll them across the room. 

 And she is right about the guys 

that Andy -- wasn't it Andy that died? Yes, 

and he, they would sit on those cans. They 

would do all kinds of things. It just wasn't 

controlled at all. 

 And what Floyd said about Bob's -- 

my husband died. Debbie died, that was his 

second wife. She was a clerk but she worked 

only on the line. She had no dosimetry of any 

kind because they didn't get involved with it. 

 She was in and out of every single bay 

touching everything just like everybody else 

did. And I think the first one, they said it 

was 44 percent. 

 She had a three-year-old daughter 

when she died at the age of 34. And I raised 

her. She is almost [identifying information 
364 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

redacted] now and she is a very good girl but 

she should have that money for them killing 

her mother. 

 And then we got a thing that said 

they -- I'm sorry, it just makes me so angry. 

 They said they were going to reconsider her 

case. We didn't even ask them to because we 

don't have all this information. Where do 

they get this stuff? How do they tell me that 

a woman that they don't even know where she 

worked and never had dosimetry of any kind, 

they can do a dose reconstruction? How? 

Where did they -- they come out of thin air. 

 We read those pages and pages and 

pages of crap that come in your rejection 

letter. They said, well, we are reconsidering 

it. We didn't even ask them to because we 

couldn't tell them anything else. We told 

them all we could tell them. And it comes 

back it was dropped down from like 44 percent 

to 43 percent after they reconsidered and we 

didn't even ask them to do that. It was like 
365 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

a slap in the face. 

 And I listen to these people. I 

have been sitting over there crying. I don't 

recognize these people anymore. They are so 

sick. I mean, I look pretty much like I used 

to except I am twice as big as I used to be 

and I don't have cancer yet. And I have done 

everything that everybody else has. And I 

have been, when I went to Rocky, I was shocked 

because they had rad engineers, they had 

dosimeters, things that Pantex did not have. 

 We had so much protection up there 

and they still, there is horrible cancer cases 

up there. I have had friends die everywhere. 

 I have friends everywhere from these places 

and I just think they should stop denying, 

stop building these huge bureaucracies that we 

have had to deal with. It has just been 

horrifying the people that you have to deal 

with and how they treat you. Those last NIOSH 

people were so rude. They, I mean, like we 

are dumbasses or something. Maybe we are. 
366 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 But does Gary Kennedy, who I have 

known all my life have to go to Hillary 

Clinton to get something done? We don't have 

Hillary Clinton. My husband was lucky because 

Dr. Fortas, who is a saint among men, and this 

is probably killing him to help all of us, but 

he helped us get his through and he helped us 

with his Part E. Isn't that right? 

 She is keeping me from crying. I 

know I am talking too much but I am so 

passionate about this. And she made me come 

because I watched it on TV and I saw that guy 

come and say, oh, we know our dose 

reconstruction is right. And I just wanted to 

kick the television. We all want to know, 

where in God's name did you get this? There 

is no records any good. Mason and Hanger ran 

Burlington and then they ran this place. What 

is so different? How come Burlington got it 

but Mason and Hanger can't? They had fewer 

rad programs than we do and actually in some 

ways, better facilities. 
367 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 My husband knew it all. I mean he 

really knew all this stuff. So did my 

beautiful brother-in-law. And I just think 

that they should stop messing around with 

people's lives because you are letting people 

die. 

 MS. RAY: I would like to make one 

more comment about the Burlington plant in 

Pantex. Cumulative knowledge is what I 

arrived at this afternoon. Why in God's name 

don't the lessons and the things that were 

learned from Burlington, why aren't they 

transferred over to Pantex? The same people 

doing mostly the same thing. 

 Likewise, a production control 

clerk, the same thing that Debbie Mathiasmeier 

, was who has an approved claim, if they did 

the same thing, then why isn't the knowledge 

from that approved claim applied to other 

people? I know in the 70s and 80s that the 

Bureau of Mines could annotate every location 

of the word water and any other thing they 
368 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

needed to find in any document they ever 

produced. 

 Where is the database? Where is 

the knowledge? All the stuff that has been 

given to the Department of Labor, to NIOSH, 

where is the database that can be used for 

research to help the workers? Right now it is 

the workers giving everything. It is all on 

the workers. And that is wrong. All of that 

information and what is data that is unusable. 

 One of them is unusable. One of them is good 

stuff. It makes sense. Information has to be 

used. Right now it is just dumping. That is 

wrong. And we have the technology now that we 

should take advantage of that. We should be 

able to research the claims that have been 

paid. Why are we redoing everything over and 

over again? 

 MS. MATHIASMEIER: Well and Floyd, 

like Debbie, that is who he was talking about 

that set at his desk. I didn't know that. 

Bob didn't know that. And Bob, he cried so 
369 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

much the last three years, he cried so much 

about all of this. And these people tried. 

They are hurting. Somebody has to get in 

their corner and stop providing jobs for 

useless whatever these -- I don't even want to 

talk to those people in Kentucky again because 

you cannot talk to them. 

 And the ones in Denver say we can't 

talk to them. We were told we can't talk to 

them. But it has to go through them so I can 

get the money. It has to go to Denver but 

they can't talk to Kentucky and they can come 

back and say oh, no, we are not going to pay 

this. I mean, what was MD Anderson for? 

Cancer. Everything cancer. So deny $1,000? 

That makes no sense at all. 

 MS. RAY: And spend $10,000 denying 

it. 

 MS. MATHIASMEIER: Yes. I didn't 

want to come to this thing. It is very hard 

for me. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: We thank you for 
370 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

coming. I know it was difficult. J.W. Tomes. 

 MR. TOMES: I'll just go very 

quickly and I am understanding this is what 

this meeting was mainly about. In 1952 we had 

Mark Vs and Mark VIs which we didn't have any 

kind of shielding at all. We didn't have 

badges. Three of my friends and I will give 

you their names and you won't mention my name. 

Floyd Kaufman, Johnny Powers, and the other 

one's name has left me. They all died of 

cancer and they put in for it and they still 

contact them in the Denver office every so 

often and they have destroyed some of the 

records and they have had to send them back 

in. 

 But during that time back in 1952 

to 1958, there was no shielding. And that was 

the time if you know the Mark VI, they had 

open pits. And to make the pit where it was 

one point safe, they put, as I recall, a trace 

chain in it. And they had to pull those out. 

 No shielding at all. But that was 1952 to 
371 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

58. 

 Well, let me bring you up a little 

bit. I wasn't working out there then but 

these people were. Johnny Powers got bone 

cancer all over him and he died on the job. 

 But Floyd Kaufman died about ten 

years ago with cancer. And his wife has put 

in for it several times with no luck. And 

they keep making excuses. And they destroyed 

some papers because she called him and talked 

to him. They wanted him to call and talk. 

And she read a letter to him and they said we 

don't have a copy of that letter. And she 

said well, sir, I am reading the carbon copy 

that I sent to you. 

 So anyhow, but anyhow, let me give 

you a little brief what I did out there. I 

went to work in 1958 and I was on the line 

seven years and I was a technical writer three 

years, that was writing the assembly and 

disassembly standards for the weapon systems. 

 And then I was in safety 23 years and then I 
372 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

went over to emergency management. And the 

last ten years out there, I managed the 

accident response crew, which is responsible 

for responding anywhere in the world to a 

nuclear weapon accident. And our job at 

Pantex was to package the weapon and the 

debris and get it shipped to the disposal 

sites. That was my job for the last ten years 

I was out there. 

 But in 1989, there was an incident 

in cell one at Pantex plant. And what they 

did, you are probably not familiar with the 

weapons but you have to loosen a valve to take 

the tritium bottle off. When they loosened 

that valve, the alarm went off and everybody 

evacuated. But they left the valve. They 

didn't tack it back up, which they were 

supposed to but I can understand why they 

didn't if the alarm went off. 

 But anyhow, they sent two people in 

there to tighten the valve and then later on, 

they took two people in there to pinch the 
373 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

valve off and retrieve it. And there is a guy 

in there with a monitor, tritium monitor and 

he said, we have got to leave, because the 

tritium monitor is just pegged out. So they 

left. 

 And they decided they didn't know 

anything, enough about it, so they got a hold 

of Savannah River, which makes tritium. And 

they came in and they said, yes, you need to 

know this, and this, and this. And I will go 

ahead and tell you, I was one of those people, 

and the cell was the reason I know so much 

about it. But they asked me, the Savannah 

River people asked me, how long will it take 

you to package this bottle, once you get it 

off? And they had me to go into another cell 

and time it. It took 50 minutes. And so they 

said put on six pair of surgical gloves and 

pull one off every ten minutes because tritium 

will migrate through the tritium glove or the 

surgical glove, and once it migrates through 

it, it will migrate into your skin. Well, 
374 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

they were with me in the cell for probably an 

hour with just one pair on. 

 But anyhow, when I turned in for a 

claim, I brought this up. And I went to 

Pantex. And what the Pantex records say is 

that they had a tritium, they had an incident 

in cell one. The alarm went off. The four 

people evacuated with a minimum exposure. And 

they locked the cell up and it hasn't been 

unlocked since. They destroyed all the 

records. 

 But they had me to give a urine 

sample the next day after I was in there so 

long. And I give it to them. I went in and 

asked the health physics person how much I was 

allowed and he says, well, I am researching 

that issue as we speak. I went across to the 

doctor in the lab and I says how much did I 

get. I got no answer. And I have never 

gotten an answer of how much tritium we were 

exposed to, me and the other guy. However, 

they have destroyed all the records. You 
375 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

won't find those records at Pantex. 

 When I filed for my claim, which I 

had a heart attack about a year after that, I 

give them what they had at Pantex and I have 

put -- this is the rest of the story. And I 

told them what happened. But, my claim was of 

course denied. 

 And I just don't understand if they 

had a big investigation on it. I went up and 

answered questions in the investigation and I 

don't understand why a plant that size would 

destroy any accident record. In fact, when I 

was in safety, we had an accident, we never 

destroyed that accident record because 

somebody might need it some time. But they 

destroyed that. And you won't find it 

anywhere. Okay? Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. Next 

we have Ken Meriwether. 

 MR. MERIWETHER: I defer. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Ken, okay. How 

about Gary Brown. Is Gary here? 
376 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. BROWN: I am Gary Brown. I was 

a security guard out there for 24 years and I 

am on disability also. I am a cancer 

survivor. I was involved in the tritium 

incident as well in 89. And at that time, 

security people didn't wear any type of 

dosimetry. I did apply for Part B and I was 

denied due to the so-called calculation 

method, which like so many other people here, 

I could not make any sense of how they could 

come up with a less than 50 percent 

calculation for me. 

 But I was also exposed to several 

other radiation. One was cobalt, just due to 

a supervisor ill-advising me to open a bay up 

for an electrician. 

 I was diagnosed with multiple 

myeloma cancer at the age of 45 in 2005. 

Which if you look that up, it is very 

extremely rare for a person usually, well, at 

that age it is just almost unheard of to 

receive this multiple myeloma, which can be 
377 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

considered as a radiogenic-activated cancer. 

 The cancer tumor wrapped around my 

spine and basically broke my neck. It crushed 

my C-7 vertebra, which had to be rebuilt and I 

went through a number of radiation treatments. 

 But it has taken us three years. We attended 

one hearing for Part B, like I say, which was 

turned down. And then I went to Part E. 

 And also my wife and I we have 

fought tooth and nail for this. And finally, 

last November I was approved for Part E and I 

am now in the process of trying to get 

documentation from my oncologist to finish the 

paperwork up. But it is a crime that it takes 

so long, especially for people who are older 

and obviously sicker than I am. 

 It is just my hope and prayer that 

we can improve this system because it is, it 

truly is on the verge of being broke or is 

broken. 

 Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: And thank you, 
378 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Gary. Then I have Rita Baker on the list. 

Rita, are you here? 

 MS. BAKER: I am a surviving 

spouse. My husband passed away ten and a half 

years ago and he started working in February 

of 58 and he was an explosives handler. The 

only thing that he ever told me was that he 

carried some boxes to be put on an airplane. 

And they were wrapped and you could write your 

name and it would light up. So, there was 

something there. And he worked in there until 

62 and then he went into the machine shop as a 

metal trader. 

 And so in 90 he had to go to Scott 

and Wyeth and he had carcinoma of the spine. 

And that made him a paraplegic. The next 16 

years, I was taking care of him. So, he 

finally passed away and he had pancreatic 

cancer also when he passed away. 

 So I hope these men all that worked 

out there know more about it than I do. I am 

just a survivor. 
379 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 But anyway, it is just like they 

say. We called; they send us to somebody 

else. We don't know who they are. And they 

say, call every month. And nothing. 

 So, thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I want to check 

again to see if there are any individuals on 

the phone lines that wanted to make comment 

tonight. 

 MS. KLEA: Yes, this is Bonnie Klea 

from California. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, Bonnie. 

 MS. KLEA: I would just like to 

thank all of the Pantex workers for being 

brave and coming out and telling everyone what 

happened. And I would like to let you know 

that your situation is the same everywhere. 

 I worked at the Santa Susana Field 

Lab and we had ten nuclear reactors. And we 

actually had a partial meltdown in 1959. And 

the Site Profile said we had a cladding 

failure and it says very minimal exposures, 
380 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

which is not true. 

 And at our site, we have a very 

large amount of bladder cancers, which is 

similar to what the BIER studies show. Very 

high lung cancers and very high bladder 

cancers. So I submitted a petition for the 

Santa Susana workers. 

 Now, I have bladder cancer and they 

gave me a three percent dose. And I show 

uranium in my body five times above normal and 

I show strontium three times above normal. 

Yet, I can't get paid. 

 And I just want you all to know 

that if the Site Profile is not accurate, 

which none of them are because they are not 

giving the real critical information, you 

can't possibly get paid. 

 And anyway, just thank you all for 

coming out. Your stories are heart-rending 

and we are all in the same situation in 

America. 

 And actually, I had a NIOSH visitor 
381 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

come out to the Santa Susana Field Lab and she 

actually was bragging that the dose 

reconstruction absolutely saves money, rather 

than paying the workers. It saves a lot of 

money. So there you have the bottom line. 

Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you, 

Bonnie. Is there anyone else on the line that 

wanted to comment? Apparently not. 

 Let me open the opportunity here. 

Is there anyone else that didn't sign the 

sheet that still would like to make a comment? 

 And if so, just approach the mic and give 

your name for the court reporter. 

 MS. BROWN: My name is Jerri Brown. 

 I am actually Gary's wife and I signed on the 

same line as he did. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Oh, I'm sorry 

that I missed you. 

 MS. BROWN: That's okay. I just 

wanted to speak really more to the process. I 

didn't work at Pantex but I have been fighting 
382 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the fight. 

 And I wanted to say one of the 

things -- we have been through two hearings. 

I have three four-inch notebooks of 

information that I set out to gather to take 

to hearings because if I was going to a 

hearing, I wanted to know what I was saying. 

And I know more right now about cancer and 

tritium and dosimeters than I ever wanted to 

know in my entire life. 

 He worked at Pantex more than half 

of his life. He was 44 when he was diagnosed. 

 He worked out there for 24 years. Is that 

not 50 percent? That is at least 50 percent 

exposure. His dose reconstructions have come 

back less. We fought. He has a radiogenic 

cancer. He has 23 years in the same facility 

and he met all their criteria and yet they 

still denied us. 

 And I said to the hearing rep at 

the first hearing that we had been to -- or 

maybe it was the second hearing. You know, 
383 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

and Gary made a mistake. We actually applied 

four and a half years ago. We have been 

fighting, and waiting, and going through 

hearings. But I said to the hearing rep, they 

have called in, they have done two dose 

reconstructions. We have had two hearing 

reps. We've had a medical examiner. We have 

had a doctor of health. They have called all 

kinds of people in to refer to his case. And 

I said to the rep at one point off the record, 

I think you fought. I think it has cost you 

more to fight us than it would have cost, had 

you written the check for $150,000 within the 

time of the initial application. And he said, 

yes, ma'am, you are exactly right. 

 I would just like to say that I 

think that the money that should be going to 

the workers is paying the people working the 

program. 

 (Applause.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. Any 

other individuals that wish to make comment 
384 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

tonight? Yes, please approach the mic. 

 MS. McGILL: I did not sign the 

sheet. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: That's all right. 

 That is fine. Just approach the mic and give 

us your name for the record. 

 MS. McGILL: I am Helen McGill. I 

have filed a claim for my husband, Raymond 

McGill who worked at Pantex from 1959 until 

1990. He had cancer. He is deceased. When I 

first received a letter from -- well, it 

wasn't to me. It was to my husband -- from 

the, I believe it was the Department of Energy 

then in 2000. It was in June of 2000. My 

husband was in the hospital then and so I 

attended that meeting. 

 Later, I received another letter 

asking me to file a claim, which I did. So 

from I believe it was 2001 was when I first 

filed a claim, all I have received at this 

point are denials. 

 I think the process is inherently 
385 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

flawed. I don't know what is happening but 

when I listen to the stories here tonight, it 

just sounds so much like my own. The last 

time I was asked to give information for a 

dose reconstruction, I did that, and received 

a report that the dose had been, it was less. 

 It had been changed to less than from the 

beginning. 

 And I know from, well, [identifying 

information redacted] who was supposed to be 

here tonight, is a person who has given me a 

lot of information about my husband's work. I 

knew nothing about it. And [identifying 

information redacted] told me the materials 

that he worked with and some of the things 

that he did at Pantex. And I know that he did 

some of the very same things, probably in the 

same areas that J.W. Tomes and some of these 

other people. 

 But I don't think I have anything 

much to add except that I know that these 

people are telling the truth. I also know 
386 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that I looked up online about the number of 

people who had cancer at Pantex. And the 

indication online was that it is no greater 

than in the general population. When you hear 

stories like you hear tonight, I think it 

probably is a lot greater than the general 

population. 

 Thank you. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Thank you. Are 

there any others? Yes, sir. 

 MR. MENDOZA: Hi, my name is Manuel 

Mendoza. And I have cancer. On October 25th, 

I found I have cancer on my liver and it was 

all around my kidney, on my right kidney, and 

I had a spot on my left kidney. And I put in 

a claim since 2002. I put a claim since 

October that is when they found it, October 7. 

 And I put a claim in early 2008 and I still 

haven't heard anything for my compensation. 

 And I got a letter here from NIOSH 

that it says here that the Department of Labor 

has received the claim you filed under Part B 
387 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

of the Act and determined that you were 

possibly exposed to radiation while working at 

a covered facility with the Department of 

Energy in atomic weapons. In addition, the 

record shows that you have been diagnosed with 

cancer. After receiving your employment and 

medical history, the Department of Labor 

forwarded your claim to NIOSH dose 

reconstruction. 

 Now my question is, I have been 

since a year and a half that I have had these. 

And the claim I put in it was 2008, early 

2008. Now, two doctors and two nurses have 

told me that I don't have to put in no claim. 

You are automatically get the compensation on 

account of my kidney. 

 And then I got the, on the kidney I 

had the procedure with the needle, where they 

burned it with the needle. And Dr. Archer 

performed the operation. He put me to sleep. 

 And that is all I can say. 

 I worked at Pantex. I worked from 
388 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

1970 to December 1986. And I worked at pits 

where they had the vault they had overloaded 

with pits. And they just tell us go in there 

and get a pit. They opened them up right in 

front of us. No protection. And dosimeters, 

I don't even know how to pronounce that name. 

 I didn't even remember dosimeter or any 

protection. 

 We had an apron, lead or whatever 

you call it. The supervisor said forget the 

apron and just go in there and get the pits. 

They were 30-gallon drums and the pits were in 

there. They opened them and the pits were 

like floating or something. It was hot. That 

pit was hot. 

 But what I want to know is, how can 

it be taking so long. How can they say it is 

not cancer? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: I think we 

probably have some folks here today that might 

be able to help you. Since we are talking 

about an individual claim, this Board can't 
389 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

deal with that in the public forum. But 

perhaps the status of your claim. Do we have 

someone from NIOSH? We don't, but we can 

direct him to who. 

 MR. MENDOZA: I can give my name. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, Mr. Elliott 

at the back of the room will tell you who to 

contact so you can follow up. So, he will 

take care of that. 

 Oh, sir, give us your last name or 

spell it for the court reporter. 

 MR. MENDOZA: My name is Manuel 

Mendoza. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Mendoza? 

 MR. MENDOZA: Yes, Mendoza. I live 

here in -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: M-E-N-D-O -- 

 MR. MENDOZA: Z-A. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: -- Z-A. 

 MR. MENDOZA: I had my name there. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you. 

 MR. MENDOZA: And you want me to 
390 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

give you my address and phone number? 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Not here. Not 

here. Just Mr. Elliott will take care of you 

here. 

 Are there any others who wish to 

make public comment this evening? If not, let 

me thank all of you for sharing with us. Oh-- 

 (Off-mic comment.) 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: If you make it 

quick, since you have had your time share 

already. 

 MR. WILEY: I haven't ever seen it 

even mentioned about all of this but when I 

went to work out here, DoD had the contract, 

and AEC only did the inspecting. They didn't 

have, there wasn't any DOE. We went through 

URDA and then we went to DO -- 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Yes, sir. They 

are aware of that. The DOE didn't exist when 

any of these programs started. 

 MR. WILEY: When DoD was running 

this plant from 1952 up until sometime in the 
391 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

60s, they had one safety man out here and all 

he did was walk around over the plant, 

checking people's badges to see that they were 

where they were supposed to be, so they didn't 

get dead men on the payroll. Because back in 

those days, it was routine for contractors to 

put dead men on the payroll. 

 CHAIRMAN ZIEMER: Okay, thank you. 

 Let me thank all of you for being 

here tonight, for sharing your stories with 

us, and for giving us a better picture of what 

the conditions were for your workforce here at 

Pantex. 

 This Board will be meeting again 

tomorrow. You are welcome. The sessions are 

all open. We discuss a lot of other things 

besides Pantex. So they may not all be of 

interest to you but, nonetheless, you are 

welcome to be with us tomorrow. We are here 

all day. 

 Thank you very much. We are 

recessed for the evening. 
392 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

1 

2 

 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter went off the record at 8:55 p.m.)