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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PROCEDURES REVIEW

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

JULY 14, 2011

+ + + + +

The Subcommittee convened in the Zurich 

Room of the Cincinnati Airport Marriott, 2395 

Progress Drive, Hebron, Kentucky, at 9:30 

a.m., Wanda I. Munn, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT:

WANDA I. MUNN, Chair

PAUL L. ZIEMER, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

ROBERT ANIGSTEIN, SC&A*

HANS BEHLING, SC&A*

ELIZABETH BRACKETT, ORAU Team*

STU HINNEFELD, DCAS

JENNY LIN, HHS*

STEPHEN MARSCHKE, SC&A

JOHN MAURO, SC&A*

TOM NEELY, DCAS

JIM NETON, DCAS

STEVE OSTROW, SC&A*

YEMI OYEDIRAN, DCAS Contractor

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU Team*

SCOTT SIEBERT, DCAS*

JOHN STIVER, SC&A

ELYSE THOMAS, ORAU Team*

BRANT ULSH, DCAS

*Participating via telephone
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T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Welcome and Roll-Call................ 5

Norton Company SEC Petition 

(residual period)

SC&A........................... 6

NIOSH.......................... 14

Database update instruction

Questions and comments -

PER Section Status............. 42

Discussion of Outstanding OTIB-0070

Issues......................... 134

Approved 2-Pagers for Online Posting

Wanda Munn..................... 141

Review of OTIB-0002 Open Items to

Confirm all Relevant and are 

Addressed in Replacement Procedures

NIOSH.......................... 144

TIB-0010 Review all Items after MCNP

Runs and Closing-01

NIOSH.......................... 163 

CARRY-OVER ITEMS

OTIB-0021-04 Response Due on Partial

Year Issue

NIOSH.......................... 175

OTIB-0051-01 Check Links Complete on 

Database

NIOSH.......................... 179

OTIB-0047-02 Status - DB capable yet?

NIOSH.......................... 179
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T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (Cont'd.)

OTIB-0019 Status - Links complete 

on DB?

NIOSH.......................... 179 

OTIB-0013 action status - Rewrite 

of 3 and 4

Robert Anigstein............... 181

TIB-0013 action status - Response 

due on 5

Brant Ulsh..................... 211

OTIB-0052 Rev. 1 Report

SC&A........................... 223

Overarching Issues Tracking Methods

Decision/Implementation

NIOSH.......................... 252

Status of 14 2-Pagers from 

Previous Meeting

Wanda Munn..................... 269

Brief Overview of 15 new 2-Pagers... 269

Administrative Detail............... 273

Adjourn.............................. 276

 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:05 a.m.)

3 CHAIR MUNN: I believe that we had 

4 scheduled for 10:00, after our instructions on 

5 the new database, Norton Company SEC for the 

6 residual period. We have Jim Neton here to, I 

7 believe, lead that discussion. And in light 

8 of the fact that he is here and the database 

9 we want to reach is not, we will move forward 

10 that item, if that is amenable with all 

11 present.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay, and let me just 

13 note we didn't do conflict of interests. We 

14 are talking about a specific site. As I am 

15 aware, there are no Board Members conflicted 

16 with Norton, and I believe that is true for 

17 NIOSH, ORAU team, as well as SC&A team. So we 

18 have no conflicts with the individuals 

19 involved with the discussion.

20 DR. NETON: I did just think of 

21 one thing, though. There were some support 

22 people that were going to call in from ORAU, 
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1 as well as from NIOSH at 10:00.

2 MR. KATZ: Can we get a hold of 

3 them?

4 DR. NETON: If the ORAU folks that 

5 are on the phone, could you maybe get a hold 

6 of Mutty Sharfi?

7 MR. NEELY: Mutty's on.

8 DR. NETON: Oh, he's on? I wasn't 

9 listening. Okay, well he is there. And Chris 

10 Crawford is the only other one from NIOSH that 

11 I was hoping that would be available, but we 

12 could start without. Mutty is important 

13 beyond Chris.

14 MR. KATZ: Okay.

15 DR. NETON: And we can start.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. I believe 

17 that we all have a copy of the material that 

18 was sent to us recently. If not, we will see 

19 if we need it once Jim has addressed the 

20 issues that were raised in that review of the 

21 petition. Do you want to take the lead on 

22 that, Jim?
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1 DR. NETON: Well, I think it might 

2 be better if SC&A would just summarize, I 

3 think Hans is on the phone who is the author 

4 of this document, might summarize their 

5 findings. They are fairly brief. And then we 

6 could start the discussion from there.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Are you prepared to 

8 do that, Hans?

9 DR. BEHLING: Yes, I am.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Very, good. Then it 

11 is all yours.

12 DR. BEHLING: Okay, this document 

13 that you may have only received a few days ago 

14 should have been, obviously, forwarded to you 

15 earlier, it was completed much earlier than 

16 you might believe. But through an error on 

17 our part, it was somehow or other not passed 

18 through the proper channels and unfortunately, 

19 you didn't receive it until a few days ago. 

20 So on behalf of SC&A, I do apologize for that.

21 But hopefully everyone has had a 

22 chance to read the document, and it, by and 
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1 large, identifies two findings. The issue 

2 here is one of how do we reconstruct doses 

3 during the period when there is really no 

4 data. For the Norton Company, there was no 

5 Site Profile and for the reconstruction of 

6 both internal and external dose, NIOSH had 

7 basically proposed to use OTIB-70 as well as 

8 TBD-6000 to reconstruct both internal and 

9 external doses.

10 In my review of the SEC ER I came 

11 to understand what methods and what data were 

12 being used to try to establish both the 

13 internal and external doses. And I think the 

14 focus initially for us was to assess the use 

15 of OTIB-70 in reconstructing the doses during 

16 the time frame when there was no data.

17 And of course, the OTIB-70 is 

18 still a document that has not been properly 

19 resolved. So the initial focus was to really 

20 address the issue regarding the use of OTIB21 70. But in the process, I also came to 

22 something that goes beyond the OTIB-70, and 
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1 that is the use of air sampling data to 

2 construct the internal exposure as well as 

3 external exposure. And I don't know if 

4 everyone has a copy of the report. I can 

5 possibly follow it page-by-page. If not, I 

6 will try to at least summarize a couple of the 

7 issues here.

8 NIOSH proposes to establish an SEC 

9 Class for the time period of January 1, 1958 

10 through October 1962. And that in itself, I 

11 didn't really talk about that but that in 

12 itself represents something of a paradox 

13 because the data that were used to actually 

14 provide information that would allow the dose 

15 reconstruction to begin during the period of 

16 1962 through the end of 2009 actually was data 

17 that was taken during the time period that is 

18 the SEC time period. And so there is, in 

19 itself, a certain amount of paradox involved 

20 here when you have an SEC Class that starts 

21 with January 1, 1958 and through October 1962 

22 to use that air sampling data that was taken 
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1 on October 13, 1958 and then say we can't 

2 apply that data for the SEC time period but 

3 then we will actually use that data for the 

4 time period that follows the SEC period.

5 So in itself, that becomes a 

6 paradox. If you have data during the time 

7 period when you say we can't reproduce the 

8 doses and, therefore, declare an SEC Class, 

9 how can you use that as the data taken during 

10 that time period when you say you can't 

11 reconstruct doses and then apply it for a time 

12 period that starts years later in 1962 through 

13 the year 2009. So that in itself is a 

14 paradox.

15 But beyond that, the issue of 

16 finding number one really centers around the 

17 use of air sampling data that were taken on a 

18 single day and involves a very limited number 

19 of air samples and in a very limited number of 

20 locations.

21 As I explained in section four of 

22 my review, not only were the air samples 
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1 extremely limited when you realize they were 

2 only eight air samples for a building that was 

3 50,000 square feet and if you look at the 

4 actual exhibit that I included in my review 

5 that is Exhibit 1 on page nine, you realize 

6 that these were all taken, generally speaking, 

7 in the same general area at the end of the 

8 hood in the thoria area. There were three 

9 samples there in the processing area at the 

10 bench, et cetera. So there were only really 

11 four locations identified for air samples that 

12 were taken on a single day that defines a 

13 collective area of 50,000 square feet where 

14 potential exposures may have taken place over 

15 a period of many years that define the time 

16 period of 1962 through 2009.

17 So a limited number of air 

18 samples, the restricted air sampling time. I 

19 reviewed the actual original data and realized 

20 that the air sampling, the eight air samples 

21 involved air samples taken for a limited 

22 number of hours. The lowest number of hours 
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1 was 1.15 hours, and the longest was 11 hours. 

2 Even more troubling, to some extent, is the 

3 flow rate of air, which was not really 

4 identified in the air sampling data for that 

5 day, but there were other time periods during 

6 which the flow rates were defined, and they 

7 were, essentially, about 20 liters per minute.

8 And so in my review of it, I 

9 looked at that data and said what is it that 

10 you are really gaining if you are looking only 

11 at a 1.15 hour air sampling time at 20 liters? 

12 You are only going to be identifying a total 

13 air volume of about 1.4 cubic meters, and that 

14 is really not enough time to really assess the 

15 air concentration for a variable location 

16 areas over time.

17 The other thing is that I 

18 identified was the fact that these air 

19 sampling data do not really give you enough 

20 information that will allow you, would for 

21 instance be, the counting efficiency was the 

22 MDA values for air sampling, et cetera. 
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1 So in essence, my real finding or 

2 the first finding was focused on the limited 

3 data, the limited time for air sampling and 

4 flow rates, and the lack of information that 

5 would allow you to say what do these numbers 

6 really represent in terms of the actual 

7 numbers that you would have to have in order 

8 to establish the credibility of the -- naming 

9 the MDA value.

10 The second finding that I 

11 identified was again now the focus of the 

12 request for us to review this to begin with, 

13 and that is the use of OTIB-70. As has been 

14 discussed on many occasions, SC&A has taken 

15 exception to the OTIB-70 values that involve 

16 two issues, two parameters, the resuspension 

17 value of 1E minus six per meter and of course 

18 a depletion rate of one percent per day. And 

19 somehow or other, they have to make sense in a 

20 way where the two values mesh with each other. 

21 You can't have an E minus six resuspension 

22 factor and then still consistently assume that 
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1 that represents a depletion factor of one 

2 percent per day.

3 So as I identified in my write-up, 

4 yes both for internal and external doses that 

5 were derived by modeling the TBD-6000 

6 approach, we do use, in fact, a factor that 

7 involves the one percent per day for both 

8 internal and external. And as has been 

9 already acknowledged, the use of OTIB-70 in 

10 those two parameters have not been properly 

11 resolved.

12 So to answer the Committee's 

13 question, yes, OTIB-70 has been used or is 

14 used in this particular SEC ER, and we have 

15 not resolved that issue, obviously, to the 

16 satisfaction of everyone concerned. So that 

17 is pretty much my summation of the two 

18 findings.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Any questions? Not 

20 at this time. Jim?

21 DR. NETON: Okay. Everything Hans 

22 said makes a lot of sense, but I think we need 
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1 to go back and look at what was being 

2 accomplished here in the Evaluation Report for 

3 the Norton facility.

4 The Norton facility has an SEC 

5 Class for all the production period already, 

6 and this particular 83.13 was written to cover 

7 some D&D operations. This is not unlike what 

8 we did, what ended up happening at Linde 

9 Ceramics where the site had been cleaned up 

10 during the D&D period between 1958 and 1962, I 

11 believe, which is when the operator of this 

12 facility went and made a very rigorous attempt 

13 to clean up all of the AEC-related thorium and 

14 dispose of it.

15 And that is well described on page 

16 15 of the Evaluation Report. I won't read it 

17 all. But they did a lot of things like they 

18 cleaned up the debris. The refractory kilns 

19 and furnaces were dismounted brick-by-brick, 

20 transferred to barrels. And all 287 barrels 

21 representing 18 to 20 tons of material were 

22 removed from that building and buried 
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1 somewhere offsite or somewhere a far distance 

2 from the original building.

3 We had a situation here where we 

4 could not with any confidence reconstruct the 

5 exposure that occurred during the D&D 

6 operations, but we knew very well that they 

7 had made some very rigorous attempts to clean

8 it. So that is why this SEC was added and the 

9 Board voted on that at the last meeting and it 

10 is going to be added for that purpose.

11 Now you come to the situation 

12 starting in 1962 where the facility had been 

13 cleaned. Unfortunately though, we have no 

14 surveys that were taken to document how clean 

15 is clean at that time. So what we did to 

16 bound the exposures was to use air samples 

17 that were taken during the operational period 

18 and said it certainly can be no higher than 

19 what was measured during the operational 

20 period. That is somewhat consistent with the 

21 Act that says if you can't distinguish between 

22 the two, you have no way of distinguishing, 
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1 you just assume that what was there was all 

2 AEC related and that is what we did.

3 So we used the air sample data 

4 that was taken in 1958 as the starting point 

5 for reconstructing or for determining what the 

6 upper bound for the air concentration, keeping 

7 in mind that all we are really trying to 

8 reconstruct is material that had been 

9 resuspended from the floor or from deposition 

10 at that facility, even though we full well 

11 know that it had been very well cleaned.

12 So we felt that these air samples 

13 that Hans reported in his document that were 

14 taken during that operational period were 

15 representative of an upper bound. In fact, 

16 SC&A knows that in the past we have often used 

17 general area air samples that were taken at 

18 the facility to represent the starting point 

19 for the residual period because you are not 

20 really trying to look at what was generated 

21 airborne from the product but what was 

22 resuspended from the floor, the thinking being 
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1 that general area samples might be more 

2 representative than that.

3 But we didn't have that, so we 

4 took the eight air samples that were taken in 

5 a very confined area it is true, but we are 

6 taking an area that in our opinion represent 

7 the area with the highest potential for 

8 producing airborne activity. I mean, if you 

9 look at some of the stations, it was -- air 

10 samples were taken by the cutting wheel, 

11 thorium-producing area, the thoria area near 

12 the hood itself, so they represent to a large 

13 extent samples taken near the generator, where 

14 the material is generated. I think the fact 

15 that the building is a 50,000 square foot 

16 building is somewhat irrelevant.

17 So we used those to set the 

18 bounding value for the start of the SEC 

19 period. I think it is totally appropriate. 

20 It does provide an upper bound. I think if 

21 one wants to do somewhat of a sort of 

22 reasonableness check on this, if one takes the 
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1 4.7 dpm per cubic meter, which was the end 

2 result of using those air samples, you end up, 

3 if you assume, and I know this is going to be 

4 somewhat contentious, but assume a sometimes

5 ten to the minus six resuspension factor, you 

6 end up with a predicted surface contamination 

7 on the floor of about five million dpm per 

8 square meter.

9 I mean, so we clearly know that 

10 the material, the facility is cleaned up to 

11 better to that, I mean, given the nature of 

12 the description of the cleanup activity. We 

13 don't believe that is unreasonable, though 

14 because, again, we can't distinguish between 

15 AEC and commercial operations. And these 

16 commercial operations, I forgot to mention, 

17 continued well into, I think, the early '70s. 

18 So they cleaned it up, and then they 

19 immediately started doing commercial 

20 operations again.

21 So that is about all I have to say 

22 about those samples. We can talk a little 
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1 more but I would like to get the second point, 

2 which was the use of the TIB-70 one percent 

3 per day depletion value and the sometimes ten 

4 to the minus six resuspension factor.

5 We have taken a very close look at 

6 this, and after looking at some of the other 

7 sites where we had empirical data to derive 

8 depletion values, it is now our opinion that 

9 the one percent per day is not appropriate. 

10 It is too fast for the clearance, based on at 

11 least three other sites that we have developed 

12 an exponential clearance using data at the 

13 facility.

14 We looked at Blockson, Dow 

15 Madison, and General Atomics. And in fact, at 

16 the end of the day if one looks at those, on 

17 average the depletion rate that was used for 

18 those was 0.06 percent per day, somewhat more 

19 than a factor of ten lower.

20 So we proposed in moving forward 

21 to modify TIB-70 to use an empirically derived 

22 depletion rate from the three facilities that 
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1 we have already looked at and adopt that for 

2 situations that make sense, where you have 

3 this uranium sort of sitting around and 

4 clearing over time. So that is going to help 

5 resolve that issue.

6 The second issue though, the one 

7 times ten to the minus six, we feel very 

8 strongly that that still represents, in our 

9 opinion, a reasonable resuspension factor. I 

10 know that SC&A has commented in the past that 

11 the NUREG where we obtained those values was 

12 actually written to be used for what is 

13 considered to be clean facilities. Well, that 

14 may be true, but the data they used were not. 

15 In fact, if you look at the values that were 

16 relied upon to develop that one times ten to 

17 the minus six value in NUREG-1720, three of 

18 the five studies that were used were uranium 

19 facilities that were in operation during the 

20 time and were either shut down on the weekend 

21 or were not operating during that period, had 

22 not been cleaned up, and they evaluated those 
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1 facilities. Those specifically are the 

2 Breslin study, the Eisenbud study, and the 

3 Spangler study. In each of those operations, 

4 he derived for what they call aged 

5 contamination now. It is a little different. 

6 Aged contamination means it is just not 

7 freshly deposited, and I submit that that is 

8 more like what we have in our AWEs, in each of 

9 those cases, the resuspension factor was much 

10 less than ten to the minus six. It ranges 

11 from 0.3 to 0.4 times ten to the minus six or 

12 what we consider to be fairly equivalent 

13 uranium operations or very similar operations 

14 to what we observed in our AWE.

15 So because of that, I think that 

16 we still feel that one times ten to the minus 

17 six is appropriate.

18 DR. BEHLING: Jim, can I make a 

19 comment?

20 DR. NETON: Sure.

21 DR. BEHLING: I agree with it. If 

22 you look at page 12 of my report, I will quote 
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1 to what I wrote. I said in the case of 

2 Norton, the resuspension factor of 1E minus 

3 six per meter seems more appropriate. I agree 

4 with it because of the fact that there was a 

5 concerted effort to clean up, which is not 

6 consistent with 1E minus six resuspension 

7 factor. It is a depletion factor. And you 

8 just mentioned that you also agree with that.

9 So as far as I am concerned, the 

10 issue has been addressed properly.

11 DR. NETON: Well, I think, Hans, I 

12 think for Norton that is true. But more 

13 generically, I think we would still propose to 

14 apply one times ten to the minus six for a 

15 facility that had not been cleaned up. And 

16 our basis for that is looking at the 

17 references that were actually used in NUREG18 1720 to develop the one times ten to the minus 

19 six, and those facilities were not cleaned up.

20 DR. BEHLING: Well, there are also 

21 other documents where E minus four is commonly 

22 observed, especially when there is a lot of 
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1 activity that may aid in the resuspension such 

2 as, obviously, active ventilation systems, 

3 foot traffic, other activities that would stir 

4 up the contamination levels on floors.

5 I don't know. I am not willing to 

6 concede that E minus six is appropriate for 

7 every location, but I will say at least for 

8 Norton, it appears to be an appropriate value 

9 --

10 DR. NETON: And maybe we should --

11 DR. BEHLING: -- there was that 

12 concerted effort.

13 DR. NETON: Maybe we should focus 

14 on the Norton issue at hand because that needs 

15 to be decided for the next --

16 DR. BEHLING: Yes. And as far as 

17 I am concerned, what you stated here was that, 

18 yes, in order to accommodate the E minus six, 

19 we need to at least modify the depletion 

20 factor of one percent per day. And as you 

21 said, I would agree with that.

22 DR. NETON: In fact, we have gone 
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1 back and done sort of a back of the envelope 

2 calculation that will formalize where if you 

3 use a one times ten to the minus six 

4 resuspension factor, given the 0.06 percent 

5 per day that we are proposing to use, given 

6 certain building ventilation rates, some 

7 normal parameters, you end up one times to ten 

8 to the minus six is not inconsistent with that 

9 type of a depletion.

10 DR. MAURO: Jim, yes that is 

11 exactly the question I was going to ask. That 

12 is good. That answers my question that they 

13 are in fact coupled. You know, they are 

14 compatible with each other.

15 DR. NETON: Yes, you are never

16 going to get the exact --

17 DR. MAURO: Sure.

18 DR. NETON: -- solution. But in 

19 general, we pick these approximate values and 

20 run them through. It is not inconsistent with 

21 that at all.

22 DR. MAURO: I would like to say 
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1 one more thing. The other half of the 

2 question had to do with the air sample that 

3 you use as your starting point. And I think 

4 you, from my perspective, certainly anyone 

5 else could express their opinion, but it 

6 sounded like you made a pretty good case that 

7 the air samples that you used as your starting 

8 point represented fairly high values during 

9 the D&D period. In other words, the samples 

10 that were collected, even though they were 

11 limited in space and time, what I am hearing 

12 is there is a pretty good evidence that they 

13 probably represented fairly high-end values 

14 that were experienced in that large area 

15 during the D&D. 

16 That being the case, that coupled 

17 up with the change in the rate of depletion, 

18 in my opinion, sounds like you have hit on the 

19 issues that we were concerned with, at least

20 for Norton.

21 CHAIR MUNN: Paul, you --

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well I was just 
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1 going to reinforce. I think Jim is right. We 

2 need to focus on this facility because I think 

3 the -- is it TBD -- 70 --

4 DR. NETON: It's TIB-70.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- TIB-70 rather, 

6 that is addressing resuspension generically, I 

7 believe. And, John Mauro, I think in the past 

8 there has been at least one other case where 

9 SC&A has agreed, for a cleaned up facility, 

10 ten to the minus six, at least, was 

11 appropriate.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes. Yes, we have. 

13 And I guess we view this facility --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think on Norton 

15 --

16 DR. MAURO: -- and Hans certainly 

17 could confirm this as one of those where ten 

18 to the minus six will work, as long as the 

19 depletion rate is compatible with that.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. And since 

21 NIOSH now has a new value, which is more than 

22 the factor of an order of magnitude less, it 
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1 seems to me that that's resolved. And if SC&A 

2 is willing to agree that air sampling data 

3 taken during the active period around the 

4 active part of the plant certainly is bounding 

5 for the residual period, then it seems to me 

6 that we have addressed the three issues that 

7 are before us on Norton.

8 DR. MAURO: I agree, Dr. Ziemer. 

9 I think that the -- SC&A's position on this is 

10 we -- the issues have been resolved, you know, 

11 in principle, based on this conversation.

12 CHAIR MUNN: So we have no further 

13 comment. Anyone else want to weigh in on 

14 this? Yes, Paul.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: I don't. We may 

16 need to get the other Work Group or 

17 Subcommittee Members' input, but it seems to 

18 me that we should recommend to the Board that 

19 they accept the NIOSH recommendation. I am 

20 assuming the change in the depletion rate, 

21 Jim, will be incorporated into that.

22 DR. NETON: That raises a question 
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1 in my mind as to how we need to move forward 

2 with that, whether we need to revise the 

3 Evaluation Report and provide it back to the 

4 Board. Stu, you might have --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I think we 

6 have to check and see what the current, what 

7 the Evaluation Report says about that. Does 

8 it specifically say --

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: It uses the one 

10 percent per day.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

12 DR. NETON: The only change would 

13 be --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we need to 

15 revise it. We will need to revise that in 

16 addition to whatever Site Profile or guidance 

17 we have for doing the dose reconstruction.

18 DR. NETON: Yes, it is just not 

19 clear in my mind whether it would be a 

20 revision or an addendum. I kind of get 

21 confused.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we will talk 
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1 to OGC about what specifically. It sounds 

2 like a revision to me.

3 DR. NETON: But I think that we 

4 are going to agree to provide that revision to 

5 the Board for the August meeting. Is that 

6 correct?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I --

8 DR. NETON: It shouldn't take much 

9 time.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: It shouldn't take 

11 much time, no.

12 DR. NETON: It's a paragraph or 

13 two to change.

14 CHAIR MUNN: So you are going to 

15 change the one percent item in --

16 DR. NETON: Yes, we are going to 

17 adopt a new depletion rate that I just 

18 proposed.

19 CHAIR MUNN: That will be a NISOH 

20 action item for our next meeting.

21 DR. NETON: Well it will be for 

22 the Board meeting.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: For the Board 

2 meeting.

3 MR. KATZ: We have scheduled for 

4 the August Board meeting you reporting out for 

5 the Subcommittee on Norton ER.

6 CHAIR MUNN: And, Ted, you will 

7 report this to our two missing Subcommittee 

8 Members and --

9 MR. KATZ: Right. Well, it is a 

10 bit of an issue, I think. We are in session 

11 and actually there is just two Members here. 

12 And it is a Subcommittee; it is not a Work 

13 Group. Work Groups are informal. But this is 

14 a Subcommittee, and so I believe there is a 

15 quorum issue. Right? If you have half 

16 membership. Paul, you know Robert's Rules.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Is it a four18 person --

19 MR. KATZ: Yes, it is Mike Gibson 

20 is on this. Well, you have Bob Presley is an 

21 alternate. 

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, my 
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1 suggestion would be that you simply report --

2 MR. KATZ: And you have Dick Lemen 

3 --

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- what we did and 

5 indicate that those present supported it.

6 MR. KATZ: Right. Right, so it 

7 won't be a formal recommendation, I think, 

8 since you don't have a quorum. But you can 

9 report out the discussion that was had and the 

10 results of that discussion.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: And indicate that 

12 there is agreement between NIOSH and the 

13 Board's contractor on these technical issues.

14 MR. KATZ: Right. That will do 

15 it.

16 DR. NETON: And then at that time 

17 the Board will take up the revised ER.

18 MR. KATZ: Right. And really, the 

19 Subcommittee then doesn't need to weigh in 

20 further, but the missing Members can weigh in 

21 with the rest of the Board on the matter.

22 CHAIR MUNN: And NIOSH will have 
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1 the proposed language for the new ER.

2 DR. NETON: It will be completely 

3 -- it will be revised and reissued as early as 

4 possible before the meeting.

5 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda?

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. 

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Just as an 

9 administrative type of thing, I don't -- I 

10 think you are going to have to track these 

11 three issues by hand. I do not think the 

12 database is set up to track ER reviews.

13 So you are going to have to do --

14 MR. KATZ: It is not necessary in 

15 this case, Steve.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. I just 

17 wanted to make sure that -- you know, don't 

18 expect it. 

19 MR. KATZ: Yes.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: We are not going to 

21 be able to --

22 MR. KATZ: No, that's fine, Steve. 
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1 You know for the Procedures, that is one 

2 thing, but for -- this is an SEC, basically, 

3 that this Subcommittee has taken up --

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

5 MR. KATZ: -- just as a Work Group 

6 might take up an SEC.

7 CHAIR MUNN: The timing also is 

8 such that since this is an immediate issue 

9 that will come before the Board, hopefully 

10 there will not be any outstanding issue 

11 following the Board's discussion and activity.

12 So we will bring that to the Board 

13 in Richland in August. And Ted will see to it 

14 that it gets on the --

15 MR. KATZ: And it is on the 

16 agenda. 

17 CHAIR MUNN: Good.

18 MR. KATZ: It is on the agenda 

19 already.

20 CHAIR MUNN: How are we doing with 

21 our database? Are we up and running?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: CITGO is not 
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1 opening yet.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm on CITGO. I'm 

3 in there.

4 (Simultaneous speaking.)

5 CHAIR MUNN: Well as long as the 

6 one we have is --

7 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm in the database 

8 right now.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, this is very 

10 good.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know what 

12 is the matter with you guys.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Let's hold just a 

14 moment and see if we are successful in doing 

15 that. Let's see.

16 (Simultaneous speaking.)

17 MR. KATZ: Well, done. Proud 

18 moment.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Let's hold just a 

20 moment to see if any of the rest of us are 

21 able to get in there.

22 MR. KATZ: Well, Jim, does there 
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1 need to be more discussion though about the 

2 generic OTIB-70 matters?

3 DR. NETON: Well, there does, but 

4 that will come later. I think what I put on 

5 the table is that we are holding firm, I 

6 think, with our position that one times ten to 

7 the minus six is representative. I think we 

8 probably need to put that in writing, rather 

9 than just throw it out there.

10 We looked at NUREG-1720, and we 

11 believe that it supports our use of that 

12 value.

13 MR. KATZ: So you will be putting 

14 --

15 DR. NETON: We will be putting a 

16 --

17 MR. KATZ: You will be revising 

18 OTIB-70 or a White Paper or what?

19 DR. NETON: Well the one times ten 

20 to the minus six is not different. It would 

21 just be a defense of the use of that value. 

22 But TIB-70 will be revised to incorporate the 
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1 change of one percent per day depletion rate 

2 to this new value that I proposed. I suspect 

3 we will write that up in one document.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I believe there is 

5 issues on OTIB-70 and there will probably be a 

6 response to one of the issues.

7 DR. NETON: Well there's only two 

8 outstanding issues that I am aware of. One is 

9 the TIB-70, one percent per day, and the 

10 other one is one times ten to the minus six.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: So as a response to 

12 the second issue, you can issue that paper. 

13 We can attach it to the database.

14 MR. KATZ: Right, and SC&A can 

15 respond to it.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: We can respond to 

17 it. And then, you know, butt heads.

18 CHAIR MUNN: This was what I was 

19 hoping we could do. I was hoping we could get 

20 into the database and take a look at what 

21 OTIB-70 had there before you ran away. But we 

22 don't need to do that. I think we have 
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1 resolved what we really need --

2 DR. NETON: The ball is in our 

3 court to draft a -- I guess I will call it a 

4 White Paper on the outstanding TIB-70 issues 

5 that I am pretty sure are a path to those two 

6 papers.

7 DR. MAURO: This is John. I would 

8 like to just point out that I think we are 

9 converging nicely. I think the one percent 

10 per day issue has now been resolved. The 

11 other issue is ten to the minus six.

12 I think that what we are hearing 

13 is that there is more nuance to it. That is, 

14 as Hans pointed out, we could certainly could 

15 point to data where resuspension factors of 

16 ten to the minus three are observed in some 

17 settings and ten to the minus six, and our 

18 original position was well that is certainly 

19 appropriate for a site that is cleaned up.

20 And what Jim points out now is 

21 that well, it may be more than that. The 

22 place may still be a little contaminated or 
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1 somewhat contaminated but it is aged. And as 

2 a result, what Jim is saying is you don't 

3 really see ten to the minus four or ten to the 

4 minus three under those circumstances. Ten to 

5 the minus six might work there also.

6 And I think that, Jim, when you 

7 put your response out on this matter, the 

8 second issue related to OTIB-70, you know, if 

9 approved by the Subcommittee, we will take a 

10 look at that and dive a little more deeply 

11 into the original work, the work that you had 

12 cited, Eisenbud and the other names.

13 DR. NETON: Breslin.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes, and we will take 

15 a look at that. And it may be -- I am 

16 optimistic that we could converge on a place 

17 where we are all comfortable with the approach 

18 to resuspension factors.

19 DR. NETON: Yes, well I am 

20 starting to come to the conclusion now that we 

21 need to start talking about effective 

22 resuspension rates. I don't deny that if 
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1 you're sweeping, broom sweeping in an area 

2 that is highly contaminated, you are not going 

3 to get ten to the minus three, ten to the 

4 minus four. But the effective resuspension 

5 rate I think is about ten to the minus six is 

6 about right, given what I have looked at in 

7 those references.

8 DR. MAURO: When you say 

9 effective, are you referring to breathing zone 

10 five micron? In other words, the concern is 

11 not with the total mass loading but with the 

12 mass loading that is over a protracted period 

13 of time and of a particle size that is within 

14 the breathing zone, within five microns?

15 DR. NETON: I am actually kind of 

16 thinking about more like -- more as if this 

17 was sort of a time weighted value. In effect, 

18 you know, you don't have people broom sweeping 

19 an entire ship where you could have ten to the 

20 minus three the whole day.

21 DR. MAURO: You know, when you put 

22 your response together where, you know, it 
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1 certainly is a reasonable thing to look into 

2 and, if approved by the Subcommittee, we will 

3 take a look at that when it is issued.

4 DR. BEHLING: Just to comment in 

5 context with what both John and Jim Neton just 

6 talked about, I would like to go back and look 

7 at, for NIOSH to look back at the table that I 

8 believe you cited and I cited as Exhibit 9 in 

9 my write-up, which gives you a whole range of 

10 resuspension factors. And I am looking at my 

11 own write-up here, as defined in Exhibit 9. 

12 And when you have things and you already 

13 mentioned it, vigorous sweeping, walking, 

14 changing, fan only, machining, stacking 

15 sheets, and other activities, there are in 

16 fact reported resuspension values of ten to 

17 the minus three and then a whole range of ten 

18 to the minus four and ten to the minus five.

19 And so there are various values 

20 documented in the scientific literature 

21 inclusive of the one citation that NIOSH used, 

22 the Stewart 1967 or is it '64, which has 
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1 resuspension values for a facility that is 

2 still operational that certainly is well above 

3 the E minus six value.

4 So anyway, I would still have some 

5 reservations about the universal value of E 

6 minus six.

7 DR. NETON: Well we will write it 

8 up and discuss from there.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Any other thoughts? 

10 If not, we will let Jim go and we will move 

11 backward to our originally scheduled 

12 instruction on database, now that Citrix seems 

13 to be operating for us, we will see whether 

14 everybody can get to our tracking system.

15 They are having distributed to us 

16 here some basic instructions, which are very 

17 helpful for folks who are not on a daily or 

18 weekly basis interacting with this database. 

19 And I am going to let the experts 

20 who are going to lead us through this take the 

21 discussion from here. And do we need to start 

22 with these instructions? It looks like we do.
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1 DR. ULSH: Well, I will just key 

2 it up just a little bit.

3 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Thank 

4 you.

5 DR. ULSH: We have been working on 

6 this database for quite some time, and I think 

7 we are at a point now where kind of the first 

8 major iteration is done. There are still some 

9 tweaks to be made, things that we would like 

10 to be able to do that we are not quite sure if 

11 we know how to do it yet. And that is why 

12 Yemi is here. He is the developer of the 

13 system.

14 Elyse is on the line. I'm here. 

15 Steve Marschke is here. We are the main 

16 people who troll around in this thing.

17 So I think what I would like to do 

18 maybe is let Yemi goes through these 

19 instructions that he just handed out. And 

20 Elyse and Steve and I, maybe if you want to 

21 bring up things that we would like to be able 

22 to do but we are not quite sure if we are 
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1 there yet, you can bring those up. And we 

2 will just drive around a little bit, kind of 

3 get a test drive.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you very much. 

5 And, Yemi, you want to introduce yourself to 

6 us? You are new to me. I don't know you.

7 MR. OYEDIRAN: Well good morning, 

8 everyone. My name is Yemi Oyediran. I have 

9 been working on this application for some 

10 time, and I am ready to walk you guys through 

11 the usage of this application.

12 For the record, the term web-based 

13 application or application is more precise, 

14 just to be pedantic, than database. Just to 

15 assist everyone.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: See, now only the 

17 computer people care about that.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I will instruct 

20 them not to be offended when we continue to 

21 refer to it as a database.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Please do not be 
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1 offended.

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: Oh, I'm not. I 

3 just wanted to break off some education. 

4 that's all.

5 CHAIR MUNN: You see, we put it 

6 together as a database.

7 MR. OYEDIRAN: I'm just very 

8 pedantic.

9 CHAIR MUNN: This is fine, as it 

10 should be. And thank you very much. And it 

11 is wonderful to be able to put a face and a 

12 personality behind all of the mystery that has 

13 been going on.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: How do you spell 

15 Yemi?

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: Y-E-M-I is how you 

17 spell my name. I'm world famous.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Or will be soon.

19 (Laughter.)

20 CHAIR MUNN: Right on cue.

21 MR. OYEDIRAN: Before we proceed, 

22 the first thing I want to bring as a point for 
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1 everyone to catch is that this application is 

2 not very well viewed in what is called 

3 compatibility view. And it is the view that 

4 Microsoft created for Internet Explorer 

5 browser to allow web-based applications to be 

6 viewed with standards that were previously --

7 that work on previous versions of the 

8 application.

9 So the first thing I always 

10 recommend people to do is to first click here, 

11 which turns on and off or toggles the 

12 compatibility view on and off.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Where are we? Let's 

14 start from where most of us novices --

15 DR. ULSH: The way you are going 

16 to get there is go into the --

17 CHAIR MUNN: Start from the --

18 DR. ULSH: -- staff tool login.

19 MR. OYEDIRAN: And my instruction 

20 back to -- we will just start with the 

21 instructions and I will take you there.

22 So using the Start Menu, you want 
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1 to open up the Internet Explorer browser, 

2 using the icon that is located generally on 

3 the top left-hand side of the menu. I will 

4 get confirmation.

5 (Simultaneous speaking.)

6 Okay now is everyone familiar with 

7 how to navigate to staff tools?

8 MR. KATZ: Then you might want to 

9 save it as your favorite.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, once the 

11 screen comes up, click favorites and save and 

12 it will show on the favorites list.

13 MR. KATZ: Yes.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. The screen 

15 comes up that tells me you're on sacred 

16 ground, and you say okay, I know that. Then 

17 we can get -- now that is interesting because 

18 I have -- that is not what I just looked at.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I know they changed 

20 it on us on the tools menu, it used to be --

21 the other thing is further up.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: The document --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: -- document 

3 tracking because we were going to build this -

4 - document tracking. We abandoned that and 

5 built our own application.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: So that is still 

7 there, so a lot of people are still clicking 

8 on that.

9 MR. OYEDIRAN: We have built 

10 something very special for you and you alone, 

11 Dr. Munn.

12 Are we ready to proceed?

13 CHAIR MUNN: I believe. Is 

14 everybody now at the same point that we have 

15 gotten to a screen that says Board Review 

16 System?

17 MR. OYEDIRAN: I will assume that 

18 is a yes.

19 CHAIR MUNN: And the next heading 

20 is Documents Under Board Review.

21 MR. OYEDIRAN: So as you see, the 

22 first thing that it brings you up to is to 
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1 what I am referring to as the document list. 

2 And it brings up the, in the document list, 

3 this document list is by default everything 

4 that deals with this particular Subcommittee, 

5 Procedures Review. We will go through how we 

6 can navigate through other Subcommittees if 

7 you would like.

8 But in the document list, it can 

9 be ordered by title, number, and findings by 

10 clicking on the column headers. So these 

11 column headers give you the ability to be able 

12 to re-order. If you wanted to navigate by 

13 document title, it will give you an 

14 alphabetical order.

15 CHAIR MUNN: So if we click on 

16 document title, we get alphabetical.

17 MR. OYEDIRAN: Correct.

18 CHAIR MUNN: And if we click --

19 MR. OYEDIRAN: Document number --

20 CHAIR MUNN: -- document number, 

21 which is the way we were tracking it in the 

22 original.
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1 MR. OYEDIRAN: It will order the 

2 document list for you by document number, by 

3 total findings, and also by total active 

4 findings.

5 CHAIR MUNN: -- by document number 

6 and it gives me the same order that I had in 

7 previous times, except that OCAS has changed 

8 to DCAS. Trying to stay correct in all 

9 matters is not easy.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: If you click on it 

11 once, you get from, well the numbered ones, 

12 the findings, the total findings. If you 

13 click on it once you get from low to high.

14 MR. OYEDIRAN: It will be 

15 ascending and then if you click on it twice, 

16 it will be descending.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Okay.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: I find that useful.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I'm sure one 

20 could. So --

21 MR. OYEDIRAN: I am here to be 

22 useful.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: You are already very 

2 useful. Thank you, Yemi.

3 MR. OYEDIRAN: Thank you, Dr. 

4 Munn.

5 CHAIR MUNN: So I will let you 

6 proceed. Yes.

7 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay. Thank you so 

8 much.

9 So as you see the documents can 

10 also be manipulated by using the two filters 

11 located at the top of the document list. And 

12 at that top of the document list, you will see 

13 the Work Group filter located in the top left14 hand side of the list. This Work Group filter 

15 allows for the document list to display 

16 documents that are associated with a 

17 particular Work Group. Right now, it defaults 

18 to our current Work Group, but the Work Group 

19 filter can allow you to filter by other Work 

20 Groups. If you choose another Work Group, it 

21 will be empty.

22 CHAIR MUNN: That is going to be 
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1 very helpful down the road. Thank you.

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: It will. To the 

3 right of that, you will see that I have a 

4 document type filter.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

6 MR. OYEDIRAN: And it allows for 

7 the document list to display documents that 

8 meet a type criteria that you have selected.

9 I keep forgetting this is 

10 interactive. So here is the Work Group 

11 filter, and here is the document filter. So 

12 you have Technical Basis Documents. I'll 

13 choose one, for instance.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Will the OTIBs be 

15 listed under -- as well?

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: Yes.

17 CHAIR MUNN: I just want to make 

18 sure, since we have problems with that 

19 sometimes in our original set-up.

20 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay. And --

21 CHAIR MUNN: I see one thing 

22 missing.
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1 MR. OYEDIRAN: Ma'am?

2 CHAIR MUNN: That is a request 

3 that we had made previously. I don't see a 

4 filter for date. In the past, the report that 

5 we have made to the Secretary has been based 

6 on groups that we have received in lots 

7 essentially, so that we sort of kept track of 

8 how well we had done from one group of 

9 procedures to another, based on when we got 

10 them.

11 We won't use that very frequently, 

12 but we have asked, as we were putting this 

13 together, that we not lose that ability to 

14 track by date of receipt.

15 DR. ULSH: Are you talking date of 

16 the actual procedure or the date of the --

17 CHAIR MUNN: No, we are talking 

18 about --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: The date of the 

20 SC&A review, the document that includes the 

21 review of that procedure. The SC&A procedure 

22 -- come over in a series of large reports, 
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1 that include each one complete and includes 

2 very many procedures in it. And so you take 

3 the date of that report and you put that in 

4 that field for the procedures that are listed 

5 in that report.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: You cannot really 

7 do that on this screen because this screen is 

8 a document-driven screen, as opposed to an 

9 issues-driven screen.

10 Some documents, for example, IG-1 

11 I believe, have been reviewed by SC&A twice. 

12 We have reviewed I think Rev. 2 and Rev. 3 of 

13 those documents. So there would be two dates 

14 associated with IG-1, for example.

15 Now the issues themselves, you 

16 could be able to do a sort. Eventually when 

17 we get to the point -- right now the database, 

18 as I understand it, is not set up to generate 

19 reports. When we get to the point where we

20 are generating reports, that could be one of 

21 the things that we could be looking for a 

22 report that covers issues that were generated 
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1 between certain time periods.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Now the dates that we 

3 have been using in the past have been dates 

4 when that particular item was assigned to this 

5 Subcommittee for work. Our first documents 

6 were assigned to us in two different lots. 

7 And then we had some miscellaneous ones in8 between. And then there were a third group.

9 So we had been tracking, on 

10 occasion, by that criterion, that is to say, 

11 when we received it, because it gives us a 

12 feel for the amount of time that we can report 

13 out, do our final closure of these specific 

14 items.

15 Of course, each finding is going 

16 to -- may be an entirely different thing, but 

17 what we are looking at is from the time we get 

18 it, how long does it take us to wrap up the 

19 entire issue, not just an individual finding.

20 So we have -- I will be glad to 

21 get back to you with -- we had Group 1, Group 

22 2, some miscellaneous and Group 3 items that 
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1 we were working on. Some of those have been 

2 completely closed out now. And I can see that 

3 this is, as we now operate, we think -- we 

4 don't get these things in groups so 

5 frequently, although as an example we will be 

6 -- we received the PERs that we are getting 

7 and the two-pagers that we are getting from 

8 SC&A, we are having those assigned to us in 

9 blocks as well.

10 And it's -- I guess this is 

11 something which if it is going to be 

12 impossible for us to do, then it's impossible 

13 for us to do. From my point of view, trying 

14 to keep track of when we got things and how 

15 well we are doing, it has been useful in the 

16 past.

17 So if it is something that we can 

18 do, fine. If we can't, then -- if you go back 

19 to the old, excuse me, database, you will be 

20 able to look at it and see that there is a 

21 period during a given year when we received, 

22 we started to work on 20 items. And that is 
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1 the kind of categorization that I am talking 

2 about. It doesn't matter to anybody anytime 

3 except pretty much to me when I start to 

4 report to those in power over us.

5 Paul?

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well under the 

7 search part up there in the corner, do we have 

8 the ability to search the date that we 

9 received the SC&A review?

10 MR. OYEDIRAN: Currently that was 

11 not a requested feature.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: What are the 

13 features of search? What is it looking for, 

14 key words?

15 MR. OYEDIRAN: We will get into 

16 that.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, okay. I'm 

18 getting ahead. I was just thinking if you 

19 could search for a date, the date of the SC&A 

20 report, then you can say okay, or maybe all 

21 reports received up to a date or something 

22 like that, then you could do that without 
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1 having a new field or something.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I'm sorry. I 

3 have thrown a monkey wrench in Yemi's 

4 presentation. I didn't mean to do that.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: I think you can do, 

6 Wanda, I think you can do what you want to do 

7 and get the information you need for your 

8 report. I just don't think you can get it on 

9 this particular screen.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Let's just 

11 keep going with the hard work that has been 

12 done up to this point. And I will try not to 

13 interrupt you again.

14 MR. OYEDIRAN: Oh, no. Feel free. 

15 I am here for you. So whatever questions at 

16 whatever time you want to ask them.

17 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

18 MR. OYEDIRAN: So after the 

19 document type filter, to the right of that, 

20 you will see that there is a clear button, 

21 which allows you to clear out those filters 

22 and set them back to their initial states.
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1 If you scroll down to the bottom 

2 of the screen, you will see that there -- to 

3 the bottom of the document list, you will see 

4 that there is a sequence of numbers that allow 

5 for pagination of the document list. So we 

6 are currently on page one. We can navigate to 

7 page two.

8 CHAIR MUNN: All right now, let me 

9 ask you something before we leave the filters 

10 issue.

11 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay.

12 CHAIR MUNN: If I ask for reports, 

13 what kind of reports am I going to get? I 

14 just click and find out.

15 MR. OYEDIRAN: The reports 

16 functionality is currently -- we are currently 

17 awaiting to proceed on working on the reports, 

18 once SC&A has given us the go ahead to 

19 continue. We are kind of going through first 

20 just kind of managing the documents and kind 

21 of the crux of the application before we move 

22 on to the document -- to the reports portion.
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1 DR. ULSH: I think we're talking 

2 about different things. If you click on 

3 document filter type, the dropdown --

4 CHAIR MUNN: See, I understand 

5 TBDs, TIBs, forms, Implementation Guides, 

6 policies, procedures, but I don't understand 

7 what reports --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: RP, RPRT, like 

9 Report 44, we reviewed Report 44.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, thanks.

11 DR. ULSH: Yes, we have got two 

12 different definitions of report floating 

13 around here. 

14 What Wanda, I think, is asking 

15 about is the type of document that we have 

16 already generated, kind of like a TIB but now 

17 this is a different type. It is called an 

18 RPT, I think.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Right. It would help 

20 me if that said RPT rather than report. 

21 Because the heading of the entire list is 

22 reports. And if under reports we have another 
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1 item that says reports, this simplistic mind 

2 says what kind of reports. RPTs would be --

3 just as we have say TIBs. That would be 

4 helpful in addition.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well if we made it 

6 again, this TIB, what we would just do is put 

7 in parenthesis after report --

8 (Simultaneous speaking.)

9 MR. HINNEFELD: If you just put on 

10 this menu here, after the word report, if you 

11 just put in parenthesis RPRT. I think most of 

12 them are RPRT.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: It's both. OCAS is 

14 RPT, ORAU is RPRT.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: So you might want 

17 to put RPT comma RPRT.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Just put in there 

20 the way you had these parentheticals up here.

21 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Just put it in 
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1 there like that and that will, I think --

2 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you.

3 MR. OYEDIRAN: Is there anything 

4 else you see on the filters that is not clear?

5 CHAIR MUNN: No, but I haven't 

6 worked with them yet.

7 (Laughter.)

8 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you.

9 MR. OYEDIRAN: Oh, no problem.

10 So with the pagination, one thing 

11 that is interesting about the pagination is 

12 that whatever filter that you applied to, we 

13 decided to go by alphabetical order, and you 

14 continue to paginate, it will keep your 

15 alphabetical order as you move on.

16 One thing I wanted to bring to 

17 you, I want to move on to viewing the 

18 document, if that is okay.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: You didn't talk 

21 about the search capability.

22 MR. OYEDIRAN: I won't get to that 
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1 quite yet. Search capability is on all the 

2 pages, and it is the last thing to touch on.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

4 MR. OYEDIRAN: To be able to view 

5 the document information, there are two issues 

6 I wanted to bring up. First when you click on 

7 that plus, it gives you what Subcommittee, the 

8 document that you are discussing is currently 

9 involved is what it is currently referring to.

10 So in this case, it is the 

11 Subcommittee on Procedures Review. To be able 

12 to view the rest of the information about the 

13 document, you just click anywhere in this row, 

14 and it will take you to this page, which is 

15 where the document, in essence, lives.

16 To view the actual documents, what 

17 you need to do is you come to the title, and 

18 it will display the actual document in a pop19 up screen, individually. And here is the 

20 document of which we are referring to.

21 So there is a PDF icon. Do you 

22 see the red PDF icon?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: To the right of the 

3 icon, you will see the title of the document.

4 (Simultaneous speaking.)

5 If it looks a little odd, it is 

6 because you are in compatibility view. And to 

7 the right of the address bar on the 

8 application, just click right there. It will 

9 be over here where my mouse is on the screen. 

10 Clicking that button will normalize your page 

11 for you.

12 CHAIR MUNN: So there is the 

13 magic, the document is there.

14 (Simultaneous speaking.)

15 MR. OYEDIRAN: Hit enter, please, 

16 sir.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, that is going to 

18 be so helpful.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Got you. Okay.

20 CHAIR MUNN: I have literally 

21 spent hours searching for a document.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: If you have 
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1 reviewed it, it is there now.

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: It will be right 

3 there for you.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you.

5 MR. OYEDIRAN: Oh, no problem. So 

6 that is how you will view the document.

7 To view the finding, as you see, 

8 it will have a list of findings that are there 

9 for you to see below the document title. In 

10 the message area, the blue icon represents the 

11 user who initiated the finding with her name 

12 below it. Also as a quick note, findings are 

13 also displayed in the order of which they came 

14 in.

15 To the right of that name, you 

16 will see the title, date, and the finding 

17 details which will appear in this comments 

18 bubble. So we have a comment bubble, and we 

19 have a user. We kind of wanted to set up this 

20 up similar to forms you might see on other 

21 websites.

22 To be able to -- I apologize. To 
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1 view the current status of the finding, it 

2 will be up here on the bottom right-hand 

3 corner. So in my example here, you see that 

4 it is in abeyance, which has a blue dot by it. 

5 If I scroll down further, you have another 

6 one that the status is closed, which has red. 

7 Each status has a different color dot to help 

8 you specify that.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, that is helpful, 

10 too. Thank you very much.

11 MR. OYEDIRAN: Oh, no problem.

12 CHAIR MUNN: I love those red 

13 buttons.

14 MR. OYEDIRAN: Now to view the 

15 actual responses, click on the blue plus sign, 

16 which is going to be on the bottom left-hand 

17 corner of the message area. And you will see 

18 some animation, which will bring down the 

19 responses that you see from the application.

20 The responses will appear with the 

21 corresponding user's name in the top left-hand 

22 side of the response. So in this example, you 
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1 will see the unspecified OCAS, OD user. Also, 

2 as a note to also bring up, every response has 

3 a different color based on its response type. 

4 So there is a highlighted area around here. 

5 We have a blue highlighted area. Here we have 

6 something that is a little bit more gold. 

7 This lets you know that you have a different 

8 response type for each one of these response. 

9 It is just to give a little difference just 

10 for viewability.

11 Now this is where the general 

12 based information kind of stops. There are 

13 some -- for certain users with certain 

14 permissions, they have ability, as you can see 

15 in this example, to edit a status, edit a 

16 response. They are given extra -- add a 

17 finding is another one that some of you might 

18 see on your screen, and some of you might not 

19 see. These are given to particular users that 

20 have been given the permissions to be able to 

21 do some of these things. Your standard users 

22 -- and we are not going to cover what those 
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1 things are since it doesn't cover all of our 

2 users. But I am just bringing that up to let 

3 you know when you see this on my screen, this 

4 is really given to Brant, who has those 

5 permissions.

6 DR. ULSH: Steve and Elyse should 

7 have those permissions.

8 MR. OYEDIRAN: They do have those 

9 permissions. 

10 (Simultaneous speaking.)

11 MR. OYEDIRAN: John has those 

12 permissions.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, if I say add 

14 finding here, it's going to tell me that I can 

15 or can't?

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Add findings is up 

17 on some of the wrong screens.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: The coveted add 

19 finding status.

20 CHAIR MUNN: I just want to see --

21 I'm sorry.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well we are taking 
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1 your status away then.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you very much. 

3 I guess I can go home now.

4 MR. OYEDIRAN: You do have these 

5 permissions.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I understand. I 

7 just wanted to see if it told me.

8 MR. OYEDIRAN: She is the chair.

9 CHAIR MUNN: I wanted to see if it 

10 told me that other people --

11 (Simultaneous speaking.)

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I believe I was 

13 involved in the discussion from the very start 

14 of permission and I believe that we decided, 

15 we being, I think, Tom James and me, or I 

16 decided and I told Tom that let's give the 

17 permissions to the chairman.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Wanda, did you 

20 hear me? I said let's give the -- well we 

21 picked out several people. I think I have got 

22 these permissions, although I don't use them 
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1 really at all.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I had assumed 

3 that I would have.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and I think 

5 we decided to give it to the chairman of each 

6 Work Group and Subcommittee.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we had discussed 

8 that earlier, and that is what we had agreed 

9 upon. Yes.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda has kind of a 

11 half permission. She has a permission to add 

12 findings, but she does not have permission to 

13 edit findings or edit status.

14 DR. ULSH: I think that is in line 

15 with what we discussed when you came to 

16 Cincinnati that you would kind of be Wanda's 

17 designee. But we can change that if you want 

18 to do that.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: No, I just want to 

20 make sure that that is -- you know, so there's 

21 really three levels here that we are talking 

22 about. One level is you can't do anything but 
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1 view it. And actually, that should be 

2 available to anybody --

3 CHAIR MUNN: To anybody.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: -- in NIOSH, in 

5 SC&A, anybody who can get to the tools. 

6 Anybody who can get on to the OCAS or the DCAS 

7 tools screen and click on that button, should 

8 be able to see what is out there.

9 And then the second level is, I 

10 guess, like Wanda has, where she can add 

11 findings but she can't edit anything.

12 CHAIR MUNN: But I can't mess with 

13 anything. Yes.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: And then the third 

15 level is --

16 CHAIR MUNN: Is people who 

17 actually work it.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Screw up 

19 everything.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. OYEDIRAN: That is by design. 

22 Where was I? I am so sorry. I apologize.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Before I interrupted 

2 you.

3 DR. ULSH: Well is that kind of 

4 the way the status -- the capability of the 

5 database to set status --

6 MR. OYEDIRAN: Pardon?

7 DR. ULSH: The capability you just 

8 described, is that the way it is now?

9 MR. OYEDIRAN: Yes, that is the 

10 ordering that is, in essence, the ordering.

11 DR. ULSH: Okay.

12 MR. OYEDIRAN: Let's briefly kind 

13 of talk about the search. Okay?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: That's not quite 

15 the way we described it. Basically we 

16 described it as I should be the only one that 

17 has the capability to set status. And then I 

18 should have that capability only when I am 

19 working under the -- as a representative of 

20 the Subcommittee.

21 DR. ULSH: See, I think that might 

22 have caused some problems.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, this will be a 

2 logic -- there is going to be logic problems 

3 there. I understand that. But you know, I 

4 could see John Stiver here has the capability 

5 to edit status as well, which may not be a bad 

6 thing because maybe I want John to do it, but 

7 I don't know that that is what we agreed to.

8 Right now we just wanted to 

9 basically be able to change the status when we 

10 are in this room meeting together as a 

11 Subcommittee and not, you know, SC&A can't go 

12 back and start closing out all these issues on 

13 their own.

14 CHAIR MUNN: We wanted to be able 

15 to sit around the table and watch the status 

16 change.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: And watch the 

18 status change.

19 MR. KATZ: You can handle that 

20 administratively. You don't need to reprogram 

21 to do that.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: We can. If you 
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1 trust us to basically go that route, then we 

2 can handle it that way.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well in fact when 

4 you change it, there is a tracking of the 

5 dates and times somewhere in the system. So 

6 if you fiddled around with this between 

7 meetings, it would show up. Right?

8 MR. STIVER: Sure, you would be 

9 able to see who made the change.

10 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay? So we'll 

11 talk. I will take you guys through the edit 

12 status approach, and I will explain to you 

13 what is going on here. But I think there has 

14 been some misunderstanding in how this process 

15 works and it is a bit obfuscated.

16 When you want to change the status 

17 of a user, you will be given the ability to be 

18 on behalf of another user while you are doing 

19 this. Because of authentication, you cannot, 

20 in the way that you are thinking of how you 

21 would be on behalf of somebody else, that is 

22 not actually legal to the way that we operate 
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1 with our applications. No application 

2 actually allows you to log in as another user. 

3 You have to be logged in as yourself. And 

4 the way that we have -- the only solution we 

5 have for that is giving you the ability to be 

6 on behalf of another user when you are 

7 entering this information.

8 So for instance, I want to be on 

9 behalf of my fearless leader, Mr. Leroy 

10 Turner. This now gives me the ability to now 

11 edit the status because I am now working on 

12 behalf of him when I am entering this 

13 particular piece of information.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Why does that give 

15 you the authority to edit the status?

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: Pardon?

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Why does that give 

18 you the -- I don't see the logic behind that. 

19 I don't understand the logic.

20 Why should Leroy Turner have the 

21 ability, the authority to allow you to change 

22 the status? 
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1 DR. ULSH: Okay, here's why. 

2 Because you sent a list of comments some time 

3 ago, and I think number 9 was I should only be 

4 able to change -- I, Steve Marschke, should 

5 only be able to change the status when I am 

6 acting for Wanda, when I am acting as the 

7 designee for the Committee Chair. The way 

8 that that request is interpreted is what Yemi 

9 has just said.

10 Now maybe that is not what we 

11 intended, but that is the way it was 

12 interpreted. That was the response to that 

13 particular comment. Right?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Then Wanda should 

15 be the only one that is in the on behalf drop16 down box.

17 DR. ULSH: What Steve is saying is 

18 that the only thing that should be able to 

19 change status, according to the way he is 

20 thinking is if it says from Steve Marschke 

21 acting on behalf of Wanda Munn. That is the 

22 only combo that would let you change the 
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1 status. Right? Is that what you are 

2 thinking?

3 MR. MARSCHKE: That is what I am 

4 thinking.

5 DR. ULSH: Now, we can talk about 

6 whether we want to do it that way, but that is 

7 kind of what you are saying.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, that is the 

9 way I was thinking it was going to operate.

10 DR. ULSH: I know. I think we --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: As a practical 

12 matter, we're not going to build a system that 

13 we don't have complete control over.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean we are just 

16 not. We are not going to set up an 

17 authorization for a Chairman that we cannot in 

18 our developing process --

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Well I know that 

20 the developer will be able to change the 

21 status. Yemi will be able to do anything he 

22 wants to the data.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So what you are 

2 saying, though, is that now -- well, here is 

3 an issue, Steve.

4 We could conclude that we want to 

5 enter a particular finding. We want to edit 

6 it. So we NIOSH want to enter a particular 

7 thing in the database. And I don't want to 

8 mess with it. Brant is on vacation. I give 

9 it to somebody else and say this is all you 

10 have got to do because we are going to get 

11 more people familiar with the database. You 

12 clip this response from Word and you stick it 

13 in the database. That is all you have got to 

14 do, and you can act on my behalf when you do 

15 it.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: I have no problem 

17 with that, Stu. On editing responses and 

18 bringing it -- now you are talking about --

19 but this is something we are talking about 

20 changing the status.

21 MR. KATZ: That is my point. We 

22 don't need to design a software specific only 
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1 to the needs of this one Subcommittee and its 

2 very narrow approach. We can deal with that 

3 with administrative procedures, whatever the 

4 Subcommittee wants to do administratively, in 

5 terms of who has authority to do what, we can 

6 establish that and everyone will behave 

7 accordingly. And we can trust everyone. We 

8 don't need to build a system that is Fort Knox 

9 to prevent people from doing things that they 

10 are not allowed to do. Because I am not 

11 really worried about people behaving badly or 

12 whatever you want to call it.

13 DR. ULSH: So moving forward, if 

14 everyone agrees with what Stu and Ted have 

15 just said, moving forward, is there any 

16 continuing need for this on behalf of, or can 

17 we just make that go away and say who is 

18 making these changes and, like you said, deal 

19 with it administratively?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Well is it built 

21 in there yet? Do we have it in there now? If 

22 we have got the capability in there, let's 
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1 don't take it out.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically, this 

3 comes into more -- again, this is another 

4 thing. This comes in when you start editing 

5 the messages and adding responses. I think 

6 this same screen is more important then. 

7 Because as we talked back in whenever it was 

8 we came down, a lot of times somebody like 

9 myself is going to be entering the stuff, the 

10 responses into the database, but I did not 

11 generate the response. Maybe Bob Anigstein 

12 generated the response. And so I am going to 

13 be -- that is where I thought that this was 

14 coming from. I am going to be the person 

15 entering it. It will be from Steve Marschke 

16 on behalf of Bob Anigstein.

17 And so from that point of view, I 

18 think it is important to keep the on behalf 

19 of. In fact, I think it is important to 

20 expand the on behalf of because right now we 

21 have it limited to whoever is on that drop22 down menu, but in reality it could be anybody. 
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1 SC&A could generate a response. Anybody at 

2 NIOSH could generate a response.

3 So there should probably, there 

4 can be a drop-down menu, but there should also 

5 be an overwrite capability so that you can put 

6 in names of people who generate responses who 

7 don't happen to be on that drop-down menu.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and we have 

9 already had the experience of having a 

10 response in an exchange that is going back and 

11 forth between the Agency and the contractor. 

12 And we have had a response which was not 

13 entirely accurate; it needed to be edited. 

14 And it was edited by someone else, but in 

15 order for that edit to be made, an entirely 

16 new -- it was not possible to edit what was 

17 there. It was necessary to make an entirely 

18 new response.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Just replace the 

20 old one.

21 CHAIR MUNN: But it didn't even 

22 replace the old one. It was in addition to. 
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1 So we had this continual list of minor 

2 corrections to edit.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Wanda, I think they 

4 have taken care of that. I think Yemi has 

5 taken care of that. Right now we are looking 

6 at the edit status menu, but there is also an 

7 edit message menu, where you can go in and 

8 actually do what you are asking for.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. Let's just 

10 keep looking at the status menu until we come 

11 to a conclusion.

12 Purely from an administrative 

13 point of view for the Subcommittee, our key 

14 issue is to assure that there is someone 

15 sitting around this table anytime the 

16 Subcommittee meets that has the authority to 

17 enter in real time comments and to change 

18 status. That is our administrative glitch 

19 here, is we want to make sure that is what can 

20 happen.

21 DR. ULSH: Most commonly, that is 

22 going to be Steve acting on behalf of you.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Right, as it has been 

2 in the past. Paul?

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well and I like 

4 Steve's comment. The other Subcommittees, not 

5 Subcommittees, Work Groups, really do not have 

6 Steve's equivalent.

7 So for example, if Bob Anigstein 

8 does develop something, say, for General Steel 

9 Industries, I would want the record to show 

10 that Steve entered it on his behalf. And that 

11 would show up, I guess. Wouldn't it?

12 DR. ULSH: It looks like it would 

13 now. I mean, that is the way it is set up 

14 right now.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, and I think 

16 that also, in a sense, protects Steve. He is 

17 SC&A's guy to enter the stuff, but he is not 

18 working on all these other Subcommittees. So 

19 it's other people generating this stuff, and 

20 the record needs to show who generated the 

21 material.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Right.
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1 DR. ULSH: So I think, to 

2 summarize, we are not requesting a change in 

3 the application for this issue right now. Is 

4 that correct?

5 CHAIR MUNN: Not at this moment. 

6 It looks like we may need to expand it a 

7 little. But I didn't hear a request for any -

8 -

9 MR. OYEDIRAN: For the on behalf 

10 of, to come to that really quickly, you can 

11 only be on behalf of a user that is in your 

12 group. So currently, I am Brant. Pretend I 

13 am Brant. Brant can only see other NIOSH 

14 people. Everybody on this list is a NIOSH 

15 person. If you are an SC&A person, you can 

16 only see SC&A people.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: But I can't see all 

18 the SC&A people. I mean, I can only see the 

19 SC&A people who --

20 MR. KATZ: So we can put in more 

21 names.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: I mean, if you want 
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1 to put in the whole SC&A directory, that is 

2 what you are going to end up doing.

3 MR. KATZ: Well the whole SC&A 

4 directory doesn't -

5 DR. ULSH: We'll put in the 

6 authorized users.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: It is not really 

8 authorized users. That is what we are getting 

9 at. Not all the authorized users -- not only 

10 the authorized users are going to be 

11 generating responses to findings. Like Ron 

12 Buchanan might generate a finding. Joyce 

13 Lipsztein may generate a finding. You know, 

14 anybody who works for SC&A can generate a 

15 finding, and they are not necessarily going to 

16 be an authorized user of this database.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well everybody can 

18 use the database.

19 MR. STIVER: I'm not sure that --

20 (Simultaneous speaking.)

21 CHAIR MUNN: Wait. Everybody is 

22 talking at the same time.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: What are we trying 

2 to indicate by an on behalf of? You know, 

3 what is that?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: It indicated who 

5 wrote the response.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well now that is 

7 your take. There are kind of two different 

8 approaches. When you are changing a status 

9 and the meat and you are doing that on behalf 

10 of Wanda, you are essentially doing it on her 

11 authority.

12 In other words, you have the 

13 authority to do that action because she gave 

14 you the authority to do that action. That's 

15 the way I used it a while ago. I said I want 

16 this response to go in the database. I ask an 

17 employee, put this in the database on my 

18 behalf. And so I gave them the authority to 

19 enter that.

20 What you are talking about is 

21 identifying the commenter, filling in the name 

22 of the person who wrote the comment, who 
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1 originated the comment because presumably, I 

2 would think that presumably there is this a 

3 sort of SC&A imprimatur on the responses that 

4 go into the database, either because John said 

5 this one is good to go or because they said I 

6 feel like Hans is capable of writing a good 

7 response and so whatever Hans says is good to 

8 go.

9 So presumably, there is a sort of 

10 institutional support for those items. So 

11 what we are getting here is in order to 

12 facilitate the discussion and resolution is to 

13 have the name of the commenter, which is a 

14 little different than, in my view, of on 

15 behalf of. Because to me on behalf of speaks 

16 of that person has given me the authority.

17 CHAIR MUNN: The authority, yes.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, let's go 

19 back. I mean, I am not talking really about 

20 this status change screen. I am talking 

21 really more about the comment change screen 

22 and entering the comments. I agree with you 
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1 wholeheartedly on the status change screen it 

2 should be on behalf of Wanda or somebody else 

3 on the Subcommittee.

4 I mean, the original intent of 

5 having two individuals identified was to 

6 identify who actually put it into the database 

7 and who actually made the comment. And that 

8 was what came out at the database development 

9 meeting that we held back in March. 

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I missed that. 

11 MR. MARSCHKE: And you -- which 

12 you weren't -- now your interpretation is a 

13 different interpretation, but it really wasn't 

14 the, if you will, the design spec.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, then I 

16 should have just kept my mouth shut.

17 (Simultaneous speaking.)

18 DR. ULSH: We talked about it in 

19 both contexts. So we need to sort it out and 

20 interpret it in terms of how do you want the 

21 database to act. I mean, if there is an issue 

22 here that needs a change to the database, then 
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1 let's figure out what it is and get it done.

2 CHAIR MUNN: There is an article 

3 that you have on the screen right now, which 

4 is a good example, I think. That gives us the 

5 name of the author of the information that has 

6 gone onto it. And it also gives us the name 

7 of the person who put the information on 

8 there. It says Brant put the information on 

9 there, and it says the data is from Anigstein.

10 So if we use that particular 

11 format, it should clarify our issue. 

12 Shouldn't it, Steve? Don't you think?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: If you want to go 

14 with that format, that is kind of the way we 

15 had been doing it, you know, previously. And 

16 that is basically just typing it in, brute 

17 force typing it in every time. And that is 

18 the way we have been doing it. And if we want 

19 to go that way, then really you don't need an 

20 on behalf of. I mean, from that perspective, 

21 you don't need an on behalf of identifier.

22 MR. STIVER: Steve, at the front 
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1 of the meeting, as I recall, this was kind of 

2 a QA issue. Sometimes that information was 

3 being put in, and other times it wasn't.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: That's right.

5 MR. STIVER: So we wanted to have 

6 some kind of methodology where you could 

7 identify, in this case, the permissions, the 

8 authority but also who the original commenter 

9 --

10 MR. MARSCHKE: If you have it like 

11 it is up there on the screen now with Bob 

12 Anigstein in parentheses in the message field, 

13 there is no guarantee that somebody is going 

14 to always write that in to the message field.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

16 MR. STIVER: And at the time, we 

17 didn't have identified users. It was just an 

18 unidentified SC&A user or unidentified OCAS 

19 user, and so you didn't really know who was 

20 putting those in.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: So a lot of times 

22 when you would find out somebody would, you 
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1 know whoever enters this then would end up 

2 being like we would think that Brant was 

3 responsible for this because it is basically 

4 from him. But in reality, it is not. It is 

5 not his response. He just happened to type it 

6 in.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, Paul?

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well there are 

9 really two issues I think that Stu kind of 

10 clarified that. Who is giving the authority 

11 to put the data in?

12 For example, if Bob generated 

13 something, initially someone at SC&A must have 

14 authorized that. That becomes SC&A's 

15 position. Right?

16 So the authorization has to do 

17 with something about by whose authority 

18 something was done, as opposed to the 

19 information about who generated the material. 

20 When you are here in the meeting and you enter 

21 something on Wanda's authority, it still 

22 might be something generated by maybe Dick 
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1 Lemen had some wording and we adopted it and 

2 Wanda gave you the authority to put it in.

3 So there is a difference between 

4 by whose authority and who generated the 

5 information. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: Well there is also 

7 the fact that often you encounter a situation 

8 where the comment that is going in there has 

9 not been generated by a single person. It is 

10 the result of much conversation that has gone 

11 on and it is the general consensus of, for 

12 example, SC&A. It is the general consensus of 

13 the Subcommittee It is the general consensus 

14 of the Agency. In which case, no specific 

15 name is required.

16 But in cases where we are 

17 essentially reporting out from some 

18 authority's White Paper, for example, as to 

19 what the resolution or what the issue happens 

20 to be, then it seems to be not a necessary 

21 thing but an advantageous thing to have that 

22 individual's name there. I would not think 
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1 that would ordinarily be the case.

2 I would think it would ordinarily 

3 be SC&A says this. NIOSH says this.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: But the thing 

5 though, Wanda, that is why we usually start 

6 off with SC&A and then we put in parentheses, 

7 you know, Steve Ostrow, or Bob Anigstein or 

8 Steve Marschke or whoever because it is SC&A's 

9 position. But it really comes more down to a 

10 tracking point of view is, you know, I want to 

11 be able to look at the comments or look at the 

12 messages and be able to say, oh, okay. The 

13 one I happen to show on the screen now is 

14 Steve Ostrow. So when I get a response back 

15 from NIOSH, I know to go to Steve Ostrow to 

16 say look at this response and see whether or 

17 not it addresses your concern. If he is not 

18 identified in the previous SC&A interchanges, 

19 if he is just identified as SC&A, I am 

20 sometimes scratching my head saying well who 

21 made the original finding and who is 

22 responsible for this.
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1 So it is more -- it kind of grew 

2 out of just for my own convenience, I wanted 

3 to be able to keep track of who is making 

4 these responses so I can go back to them. 

5 Because sometimes there is a great deal of 

6 delay between the time the finding is opened 

7 and the finding is finally closed. So it 

8 could be a couple of years and during that 

9 time period, we want to keep track of who 

10 wrote the initial finding.

11 DR. ULSH: And it seems to me that 

12 that is really going to be the most 

13 appropriate use for the on behalf of feature. 

14 Because anytime a status changes, it's going 

15 to be on behalf of the chair of the --

16 MR. STIVER: You never really need 

17 to keep of track of it. It is understood that 

18 the authority is coming from --

19 DR. ULSH: The way this is going 

20 to play out in practice is SC&A has a lot of 

21 people who generate comments but not all those 

22 people are going to know how to use this 
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1 database and they are going to come to Steve 

2 and say hey, put this comment in. And Steve 

3 will type it in.

4 The same thing on the ORAU side. 

5 Elyse Thomas is going to know how to do this 

6 and someone is going to make a response. She 

7 can put it in and track who the originator 

8 was. That is the way it is going to play out.

9 So maybe that on behalf of, if Bob 

10 Anigstein comes to Steve Marschke and says 

11 here is my comment, then Steve will log in as 

12 him, type in a comment on behalf of Bob 

13 Anigstein. That seems to me the way this will 

14 work.

15 MR. STIVER: Seems reasonable. 

16 The only problem I see is that just to have a 

17 complete listing available for Bob and people 

18 to be commenters. So maybe we should have 

19 some ability to write in a name for somebody.

20 MR. KATZ: It's easy to solve. We 

21 can get a complete listing in there as a drop22 down list so you don't have to write it in. 
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1 Right?

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: Right.

3 MR. KATZ: So you supply a list of 

4 everyone who writes technical comments. It's 

5 not all of SC&A. It is actually a subset of 

6 SC&A, and we will have that list in there.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: It can be fixed at 

8 the time. A new person makes a comment who 

9 hasn't before, you just let us know and we'll 

10 add that name.

11 MR. KATZ: We'll add that name.

12 MR. STIVER: Call or whatever and 

13 say we have got to add this person to the 

14 list.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Sorry I caused a 

16 problem.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Okay, everybody 

18 understands what we are doing except me. 

19 That's good. That means we are clear. Okay.

20 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay, I wanted to 

21 go to the search. The search is very similar 

22 to the way that a Google search works, at 
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1 least the way I wrote it, but it currently 

2 only -- I believe I wrote this two months ago, 

3 so some of these things are not completely on 

4 the top of my head.

5 The search items it allows you to 

6 search on are the title and anything that is 

7 part of the message or comments in there. So 

8 for instance if I wanted to search, this will 

9 bring us back up for us. But just this phrase 

10 right here, it will take me to a search screen 

11 that brings me to -- this looks a little weird 

12 because of the resolution. To make it larger 

13 up there, I had to zoom in. This will take 

14 you to -- I'll show you what -- a better 

15 example of what it looks like. This is a 

16 better example of what it looks like normally. 

17 It will take you to the message or the 

18 documents that has that information in it. 

19 So as I said before, it takes us 

20 to the place where we found that text in 

21 there. You can also search by the title. So 

22 let's say we wanted to search on this, this 
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1 TBD. It will bring us to this, and it will 

2 bring us anyplace that information is -- that 

3 document's name is in.

4 And it will also give you a 

5 message search. It gives you two different 

6 searches. So it allows you to give a message 

7 search and lets you search anything that is 

8 relating to that document.

9 So if you ever do run into some 

10 issues and a name is mentioned, the 

11 gentleman's name --

12 MR. STIVER: Anigstein.

13 MR. OYEDIRAN: How do I spell 

14 that?

15 MR. STIVER: A-N-I-G-S-T-E-I-N

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: S-T-I-E-N?

17 MR. STIVER: No, E-I-N.

18 MR. OYEDIRAN: E-I-N. Believe it 

19 or not, it -- I cannot find -- well maybe it 

20 is in the message. And it is mentioned in the 

21 message. And it is mentioned in these two 

22 messages and somewhere in here. After digging 
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1 through for a while it will lead you to where 

2 you are looking for.

3 That is how the search works. The 

4 search is just very similar to Google search, 

5 but it only does it for messages and document 

6 information. It also can let you do partial 

7 document information. So if I wanted to do 

8 TIB-010, I don't believe that actually exists, 

9 but it gets everything in there that has that 

10 TIB-010 in it and any messages that are 

11 dealing with that as well.

12 So you can also search because 

13 here is we have an OTIB that is TIB-0010 but 

14 it will help you along the way.

15 CHAIR MUNN: That's great.

16 MR. STIVER: That's kind of 

17 interesting. I typed in TIB-24 and I get some 

18 other things that don't seem to be related 

19 here.

20 MR. OYEDIRAN: There is going to 

21 be -- what it is going to have to do because 

22 algorithmically it is going to have to try to 
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1 guess what the statistical likelihood of what 

2 you're aiming for. So it is going to grab a 

3 lot of information. And some of that 

4 information may be necessary and some of it 

5 might not be. 

6 The better, the more clear and the 

7 more exact you are, the better your searches 

8 are going to be, just as -- like as in Google. 

9 But the more broad you are, the less precise

10 it is going to be.

11 MR. STIVER: Because I get 

12 something -- PER-011, which has nothing 

13 whatsoever to do with TIB-24 in terms of the 

14 characters.

15 MR. OYEDIRAN: Well you are going 

16 to have those characters mentioned somewhere 

17 in the message or --

18 MR. STIVER: In the title there is 

19 --

20 MR. KATZ: It could be in the body 

21 of the document, though. Right?

22 MR. OYEDIRAN: Right.
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1 MR. KATZ: Yes, you have to open 

2 it up and look.

3 MR. STIVER: All right, that makes 

4 sense then.

5 MR. OYEDIRAN: So I mean, it just 

6 gives you a robust search. One is honed 

7 towards the documents, and the other one is 

8 honed towards the messages and responses. So 

9 that is just where it gives you that.

10 So somewhere in there it is going 

11 to give you something that will pull 

12 information that may or may not be relevant, 

13 but it also ranks your relevance. So your 

14 most relevant, based on what you were 

15 searching, goes to the top and disambiguation 

16 from there.

17 MR. STIVER: So now we know how 

18 Google does their search engines.

19 MR. OYEDIRAN: I am actually doing 

20 my graduate research on Google search engine 

21 right now. So I decided to bring in a little 

22 of that. Sorry.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Great. Well done.

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: The other thing I 

3 will bring to your attention. I guess since 

4 we are covering, we have talked about editing 

5 statuses. We have talked about editing 

6 responses, I believe. Adding a finding, just 

7 to show you, the edit status, edit message, 

8 and all of these, basically all work off the 

9 same piece of information, the same page, 

10 which allows you to give the relevant 

11 information. It gives you a Rich Text box so 

12 you can format it very similar to Word 

13 documents. It even allows you to copy and 

14 paste from Word and then format it, based on 

15 your Word documents. It allows you to attach 

16 attachments to responses and messages, if 

17 necessary.

18 MR. KATZ: So can you copy and 

19 paste from other compatible --

20 MR. OYEDIRAN: Yes.

21 MR. KATZ: -- like Excel or 

22 whatever?
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1 MR. OYEDIRAN: I'm not sure about 

2 Excel, but you can do it from Word. I did not 

3 kind of optimize for Excel, but you can make 

4 it work, if you want to put in a table.

5 MR. KATZ: Great.

6 MR. OYEDIRAN: I have a zoom in 

7 and zoom out for text. So if you needed to be 

8 able to read better --

9 MR. STIVER: Is there any way to 

10 put a link in to an Excel spreadsheet?

11 MR. OYEDIRAN: If you attach it as 

12 a file to a response.

13 MR. STIVER: Oh, you said put it 

14 under attachments. But you couldn't just put 

15 it in the finding like a little hyperlink?

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: That is another 

17 thing you can do as well.

18 So we have seen the documents and 

19 the Board reviews. This is also for the Work 

20 Group administration, and this gives you Work 

21 Group administration for every one of the Work 

22 Groups for the Subcommittee on Procedures 
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1 Review. You will see all of the people 

2 associated.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Where is this?

4 MR. OYEDIRAN: Oh, I apologize. 

5 If you go to the menu --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Main menu and then 

7 Work Group administration.

8 MR. OYEDIRAN: I didn't plan on 

9 going over some of these items, so we're kind 

10 of ad hoc here.

11 Going to the Board Review, Ms. 

12 Munn, my example up top, if you go to this 

13 menu right here, the Board Review Menu and you 

14 will have three choices, unassigned, queued 

15 documents under Board review, and Work Group 

16 admin. The Work Group admin will lead you to 

17 the Work Group administration page.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Since I don't have 

19 permission.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Wanda doesn't have 

21 permission to go to that.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, it says we 
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1 can't see that.

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: And that is where I 

3 was going. This is why I didn't plan on going 

4 over this part because some people have the 

5 ability and some people don't.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, I was going to 

7 say that it would be -- why can't we see this?

8 MR. OYEDIRAN: There were some 

9 people that were decided to be administrators. 

10 This was in a list of requirements and I just 

11 associated the list of requirements with 

12 roles.

13 Members and alternates and Chairs 

14 do not get the ability to administrate. The 

15 administrators are given to Steve Marschke and 

16 SC&A users, as well as OCAS users and ORAU 

17 Board review members.

18 So the particular -- and those are 

19 some things that you might want to hash out in 

20 --

21 MR. MARSCHKE: Well what is the 

22 purpose of this menu? What does this do?
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1 MR. OYEDIRAN: This gives you the 

2 ability to administrate permissions.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: What do you mean 

4 administrate permissions? What permission? I 

5 mean, I guess you mean permissions, this tells 

6 you who can --

7 MR. OYEDIRAN: You have a selected 

8 group of users you can decide on, and they 

9 have roles that you can use. And each role 

10 has permissions.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: The role, the list 

12 of roles there on that, Steve.

13 MR. OYEDIRAN: These are the roles 

14 that I was given. So your role is your 

15 permission.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well if you can 

17 get to this page, you can change things.

18 MR. OYEDIRAN: You can change 

19 these --

20 DR. ULSH: Okay, I can't change 

21 anything. So only you can or Steve can?

22 MR. OYEDIRAN: I was given a list 
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1 of names that should have this ability.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Just a comment, 

3 though. It would be useful, I think, to all 

4 Board Members to have access to the list --

5 MR. OYEDIRAN: You don't want too 

6 many people having administrative permissions.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: Not 

8 administrative, to be able to see -

9 MR. OYEDIRAN: To be able to see 

10 the list --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: What if any user 

12 could just see the list. 

13 MR. OYEDIRAN: We can -- but that 

14 can be worrying. Because if you can get on --

15 his example, he doesn't have the ability to 

16 remove users.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: So I think it 

18 would be fine for all the Board Members to 

19 have this authority, just to be able to look 

20 at it.

21 MR. OYEDIRAN: Right. On this 

22 portion, I think this was just really an old 
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1 list from when this was probably back in DCTA. 

2 So there are things that haven't 

3 been -- since we are, we might as well bring 

4 it to your attention as to one of those things 

5 that you might want to pass on to my task 

6 monitor if you are interested in it working 

7 differently.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Why don't you make 

9 a note of that. Let's make sure we work --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Because otherwise, 

11 Zaida ends up having to send out current Work 

12 Group lists. This would be a good way to --

13 who is on a Work Group.

14 MR. OYEDIRAN: It's very simple.

15 DR. ULSH: So one change is to --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Let everybody be 

17 able to read that sheet.

18 MR. OYEDIRAN: That is a very 

19 minor detail. It is not very big

20 The application also for user 

21 ability, we did our best to kind of have icon 

22 sets that give you obvious things. If you see 
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1 a red X, it is to cancel, close or delete. If 

2 you see a green check button, it is to accept. 

3 Green is good. Red is bad.

4 DR. ULSH: Wait, red is close. 

5 That's good.

6 MR. OYEDIRAN: That brings 

7 attention to the fact of don't do anything 

8 else to this. Move on.

9 So and if there are other things 

10 in the user ability and the usability that may 

11 make it easier for you to use, please let us 

12 know.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I just see that a 

14 lot of the SC&A people that I mentioned before 

15 like Joyce are on this list. So I can 

16 basically add her to -- and I can give her 

17 permission --

18 MR. OYEDIRAN: Yes.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: -- if I wanted to? 

20 And then her name would add to that drop-down 

21 menu when I am editing on behalf of?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Is Joyce an 
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1 authorized user?

2 MR. KATZ: No, she is not.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Well that is what I 

4 am just saying. It is on the list here that I 

5 --

6 MR. KATZ: It is on the list, but 

7 she doesn't have even internet access, I don't 

8 believe.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't care. I 

10 don't care. If she really ever gets on. I 

11 want her name to show up on the drop-down menu 

12 --

13 MR. KATZ: Sure.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: -- so that when I 

15 --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, Steve was 

17 going to take care of that. Well, not Steve. 

18 John was going to take care of just getting

19 the roster of the people --

20 MR. KATZ: You are going to --

21 SC&A has an action item just to submit all of 

22 the people who potentially could provide 
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1 technical comments. Those will go in the 

2 drop-down.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm just saying it 

4 is already here. It may already be here in 

5 this drop-down list.

6 MR. OYEDIRAN: That's a minor 

7 augmentation.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: I will let Yemi do 

9 it.

10 DR. ULSH: So, Yemi, can we right 

11 now, if I said to you I want to see all of the 

12 in-progress findings. I don't care what

13 document it is attached to. Just show me 

14 that.

15 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay, the status, 

16 that status filter was just brought to our 

17 attention this week. We have been waiting for 

18 -- we finished work on this in April, and we 

19 have been waiting to hear back on some 

20 feedback.

21 DR. ULSH: Okay. So I'm making a 

22 list now of action items going forward. So it 
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1 is not a criticism that it's not here but the 

2 one thing that we are going to want relatively 

3 rapidly is the ability to do that.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Absolutely. That is 

5 a key ability for us here when we are sitting 

6 around the table.

7 MR. OYEDIRAN: That is going to 

8 have to be discussed with my task monitor. I 

9 am a contractor, and I just do as I am told.

10 DR. ULSH: All right. Well, we 

11 will work that out.

12 MR. OYEDIRAN: I prefer to dance 

13 for my dinner. I don't get paid to think or 

14 make decisions. I just get told what to do. I 

15 prefer it that way.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Brant, you are 

17 going to take that up with Tom then?

18 DR. ULSH: Yes.

19 MR. STIVER: I guess so far we 

20 have a --

21 DR. ULSH: Sorry. Well this 

22 doesn't have to be an exhaustive list right 
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1 now. You are going to have to take this and 

2 think about it and play around with it. But 

3 is there any other burning feature that you 

4 would like to have that occurs to you right 

5 now?

6 MR. NEELY: Did Steve say he 

7 wanted to expand the on behalf of lists?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, the SC&A 

9 list.

10 MR. KATZ: SC&A is going to 

11 provide a list.

12 MR. NEELY: Okay.

13 DR. ULSH: So John will send that 

14 to me, and I will get it to whoever it needs 

15 to go to on our side.

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: Yes, the more lead 

17 time that you give us, the more we will be 

18 able to get these things done.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Being able to sort on 

20 status is important.

21 MR. STIVER: And also by time, 

22 weren't you interested?
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: I will show you 

3 what we really want. I can't put it up on the 

4 screen. Oh, shoot.

5 DR. ULSH: Yes, that is going to 

6 be one, sorting by time, that is going to be 

7 one that we are going to have to discuss a 

8 little bit to nail down exactly what we want 

9 to do. But I will put it on the list here.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, if look back at 

11 our old reports, where we used to be able to 

12 just print out exactly what we were looking at 

13 and when we got it.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: A thought occurs 

15 to me in terms of being able to put a date on 

16 there and still use a document-driven screen 

17 is a different -- when a document's been 

18 reviewed more than once it's a different 

19 revision. And so you would have a Rev. 0 and 

20 then you would have a rev one at the end of 

21 the title -- it is just part of this document 

22 title and then you would have a different 
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1 date. That just occurred to me as a way to do 

2 it on a document-driven --

3 DR. ULSH: Is there ever a 

4 situation where one document would be reviewed 

5 by two different Working Groups or 

6 Subcommittees or --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, they will be 

8 referred back and forth.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

10 MR. STIVER: -- some that become 

11 overarching --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and some will 

13 -- go to overarching.

14 MR. KATZ: But not simultaneously, 

15 really. 

16 DR. ULSH: No. We were trying to 

17 sort by date. For instance if there was a --

18 a Norton Working Group?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: No.

20 DR. ULSH: Okay, well let's just 

21 pretend --

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Norton's not going 
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1 to be in here.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Pick Rocky Flats.

3 DR. ULSH: Rocky Flats. So Rocky 

4 Flats, what, ER or TBD is reviewed by the 

5 Rocky Flats Working Group, but then at a later 

6 time it is picked up by Procedures or somebody 

7 else. If we have a date, one date that it is

8 assigned for review, there might be more than 

9 one of those, depending on which --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Well but the date 

11 doesn't go with that document. The date goes 

12 with the review of that document. That is the 

13 date that goes in the data field.

14 So I don't see -- I don't know. 

15 We'd have to talk about -- later on we'll have 

16 a conversation about it. I don't see this as 

17 being too difficult. Because really what 

18 kicks these things off is not that we publish 

19 a document. What kicks these things off is 

20 that SC&A publishes a review of the document. 

21 That is what kicks off this whole discussion.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: If you look --
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1 Sorry.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, go ahead.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: If you look at this 

4 old screen, basically this is what used to be 

5 generated from, if you go back to the Access 

6 database. And over here we have the dates 

7 when SC&A published their findings. This is 

8 basically the total number of findings. And 

9 this then is the current status of each one of 

10 those findings.

11 So I mean, you could generate 

12 this. I believe you could generate this 

13 screen by just going through all the 

14 documents, looking at all the findings and 

15 just binning them into these different bins.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

17 DR. ULSH: So it would be a 

18 summary report, basically.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: And it would be a 

20 summary report. This is what Wanda, I think, 

21 is getting at.

22 CHAIR MUNN: This is what I am 
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1 getting at. The first finding date there, for 

2 example, says 1/17/2005. And it says the 

3 total number of findings is 183. Now that 

4 tells you instinctively we are not talking 

5 about a single report here. That was a group 

6 of reports that we received that was dumped in 

7 our lap to begin with. This is what you have 

8 to work with. Go forward and do good things.

9 And each of those dates there, 

10 there are two or three of them that are only 

11 one single document that was assigned to us. 

12 But the date that we were working from in the 

13 past and the date that I have used in previous 

14 reports to others outside of our immediate 

15 Board has been a listing of how many of those 

16 findings were closed. It makes a difference 

17 from my perspective as to how long we have had 

18 them.

19 DR. ULSH: Okay. So going 

20 forward, I want to make sure that I understand 

21 what you are asking for and then I can work 

22 with Yemi after this meeting to accomplish it.
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1 SC&A is assigned, let's say, a 

2 group of five documents to review. And they 

3 issue a report that says here is our findings 

4 for document one, two, three, four, five, and 

5 there is multiple findings in there. That is 

6 the date that would go in for whatever we are 

7 going to call this field, date reviewed or 

8 whatever. And that date would be attached to 

9 all the findings as well.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, absolutely.

11 DR. ULSH: Okay, I think I 

12 understand what you want.

13 CHAIR MUNN: When we get it.

14 MR. KATZ: I mean, SC&A completes 

15 a review of each document individually. So 

16 even if they got assigned a number, each 

17 document, whether it is a TIB or whatever that 

18 they review, there will be ten findings for 

19 that TIB. They all have the same date because 

20 it is when they reviewed the TIB.

21 DR. ULSH: Right. I mean, the 

22 report that you would issue, might there be 
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1 more than one TIB in the same SC&A report?

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, absolutely. We 

3 could have a batch.

4 DR. ULSH: All right. I think I 

5 understand.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Some of these have 

7 up to 45.

8 MR. STIVER: It basically is for 

9 tracking purposes.

10 MR. OYEDIRAN: We hadn't focused 

11 on the reports yet because we had been waiting 

12 for many of these items to be checked off and 

13 looked at. And that was about six to eight 

14 weeks about. And many of these things we just 

15 recently started finding out about.

16 So it is going to take us a lot of 

17 time to kind of work through all of these 

18 issues because these aren't trivial issues.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Understood.

20 MR. OYEDIRAN: And being able to 

21 get through them, which we can do and we will 

22 do, but we kind of have to go through a 
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1 process we have been working through to get 

2 there.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: I want to 

4 emphasize one thing. This is analogous to the 

5 dose reconstructions. You know, we have had 

6 this tracking of early dose reconstructions. 

7 Have we gotten everything done on the first 

8 thousand, the second thousand. We have had 

9 two reports to the Secretary on closing out 

10 these findings, and one of the issues is what 

11 about those early X-hundred findings. Are 

12 they still sitting there, or have they been 

13 closed out? And that is where the importance 

14 of these dates comes in. So that when we go 

15 to the Secretary, we can say, yes, we don't 

16 have some findings that are seven years old 

17 that we haven't dealt with yet. So that is 

18 where it becomes important to track, is for 

19 what we tell the Secretary we have done in 

20 terms of closing out issues that are 

21 particularly older issues.

22 DR. ULSH: Okay.
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1 MR. OYEDIRAN: That makes perfect 

2 sense.

3 DR. ULSH: I envision going 

4 forward that other things are going to occur 

5 to you after this meeting. Just email them to 

6 me. I will work with Yemi to make sure that 

7 we understand them. It is going to be an 

8 iterative process. We are going to be 

9 tweaking this for a bit.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and the 

11 database is generally available. So if you 

12 are authorized to use it, you can use it 

13 anytime.

14 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you. At first 

15 glance and at first explanation, this is 

16 impressive. And it has incorporated many of 

17 the things that will help us, I think, 

18 segregate what we want to focus on from one 

19 meeting to the next.

20 So, Yemi, to you and your 

21 colleagues who have worked on it, thank you 

22 very much. We appreciate we are creating 
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1 headaches for you, but we do appreciate what 

2 you have done, and it is looking good so far.

3 Yes, Steve?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: John was just 

5 looking. When you click on the edit status 

6 button, like you did before --

7 MR. STIVER: It kicks me into the 

8 new findings screen. Is that because I don't 

9 have permissions for that?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: It goes to a new 

11 finding screen. Does it really come as a new 

12 finding or does it come as a --

13 MR. OYEDIRAN: You have to enter 

14 -- this was also in our meeting. I do 

15 remember this being specified in our meeting 

16 in February, February 17th, that if you were 

17 to change status, you have to enter in some 

18 information. That is how it works.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I have no problem 

20 with that. But up in the upper left, it says 

21 finding. It doesn't basically generate a new 

22 finding. This is entered as a message under 
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1 the existing finding. 

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: That is simple to 

3 fix. It is just the text.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: It is just an 

5 editorial thing?

6 MR. OYEDIRAN: That is just copy.

7 MR. STIVER: Well as it stands 

8 right now, it allows you to put in some 

9 comment, but I don't see where you can change 

10 it from in abeyance to resolved or in 

11 progress.

12 MR. OYEDIRAN: Once you change who 

13 your on behalf of is, it will then give you a 

14 list of the current status --

15 MR. STIVER: Okay. All right.

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: Because you have to 

17 do it on behalf of somebody else to change the 

18 status.

19 MR. STIVER: Okay. All right.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Now, let's go back 

21 to the -- let's go at the edit message screen.

22 MR. OYEDIRAN: Do you want to edit 
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1 a response?

2 MR. MARSCHKE: I want to edit a 

3 response. Edit response would be fine.

4 Okay, it doesn't have an on behalf 

5 of.

6 MR. OYEDIRAN: I don't believe 

7 that was ever specified to have an on behalf 

8 of for editing responses. But it was for 

9 editing on or creating a new finding.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Someplace else 

11 where that came, where the closed came up. 

12 Wait a minute I have to find it.

13 (Sound of a siren.)

14 MR. OYEDIRAN: That's my cue. 

15 I've got to go.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. KATZ: Someone on the line has 

18 a siren and is not on mute.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Incoming.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Maybe it is when 

21 you add response. When you hit the add 

22 response you get the same kind of screen that 
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1 you get -- you get the same screen that you 

2 get when edit finding.

3 But add response also including, I 

4 believe --

5 MR. OYEDIRAN: Editing, you can't 

6 edit on behalf of somebody else. You're just 

7 editing.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: You can't edit on 

9 behalf of someone. You are just editing. 

10 Right. Well you can. Actually you can but 

11 don't change it.

12 But when you add a response, you 

13 get the same screen that you get with change 

14 status. And including the capability to 

15 change the status when you add a response.

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Which I am not sure 

18 that you want to be able to do that.

19 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay, that is 

20 something we can resolve quickly.

21 MR. OYEDIRAN: Yes. Once you find 

22 some things, please feel free to send them to 
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1 the NIOSH email.

2 DR. ULSH: Send them to me. I 

3 just want to keep track of them.

4 MR. OYEDIRAN: Some of these 

5 things are going to be easy to be fixed.

6 MR. NEELY: Does that complete 

7 your presentation?

8 MR. OYEDIRAN: That does complete 

9 my presentation. I would like to thank you 

10 guys so very much for taking the time to have 

11 me out here. If you have any questions, 

12 please send them to Brant. I am sure he will 

13 be more than willing to pass them on to me.

14 CHAIR MUNN: We thank you very 

15 much for taking the time to come and do this 

16 for us.

17 We know it is not an easy task. 

18 Even for the gee whiz guys, this is no easy 

19 task. So thank you very much.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: And I would second 

21 that, Wanda. I think this is a far -- great 

22 strides have been made. And this is a very 
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1 good database. I know it is not a database 

2 but --

3 CHAIR MUNN: It certainly is. 

4 Yes.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: It is a very good 

6 database/application. And I think you have 

7 done a very good job.

8 MR. OYEDIRAN: Thank you so much.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: My comments, you 

10 know --

11 MR. STIVER: Everything we talked 

12 about at meetings all fell into place.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Hopefully you were 

14 not put off by what I have been saying. It is 

15 just I think it is very good.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Much more flexible 

17 than we originally hoped for and I think it 

18 will be most useful for us.

19 So thank you.

20 MR. OYEDIRAN: You are very 

21 welcome.

22 CHAIR MUNN: And we will talk to 
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1 you again the next time we meet, no doubt.

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: I look forward to 

3 that, Ms. Munn.

4 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

5 MR. OYEDIRAN: The pleasure was 

6 absolutely mine.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you. It was a 

8 pleasure to meet you. Thank you both for 

9 coming.

10 MR. OYEDIRAN: Oh, these. I'm 

11 actually in the process of creating screen 

12 casts that will take you through a video and 

13 show you step by step of how to go over these 

14 things. And I will also have this this text, 

15 as well as the screen casts on the application 

16 for you to do.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: The one thing we 

18 didn't talk on and touch on is how to get a 

19 PDF file or a hard copy of this information 

20 because a lot of times --

21 MR. OYEDIRAN: What information?

22 MR. MARSCHKE: All this 
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1 information. 

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: To create a PDF?

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Maybe for example, 

4 you know, if I got -- if we get responses from 

5 NIOSH on one of these documents, IG-2 or 

6 something like that, and I want to send those 

7 responses to, whoever at SC&A is working on 

8 IG-2. Sometimes they may not have 

9 capabilities or authority to get into this 

10 database or they may not even just have the 

11 inclination to get into the database.

12 MR. OYEDIRAN: Okay.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: So a lot of times 

14 what I will do is in the past I could generate 

15 a PDF file of say for example all the history 

16 --

17 MR. OYEDIRAN: I see where you are 

18 going. I think once you get all of your 

19 requirements together, because what it sounds 

20 like, you are kind of giving me a new 

21 requirements list for the applications.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: I have talked about 
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1 this before.

2 MR. OYEDIRAN: Since I have been 

3 working on this application, I haven't gotten 

4 --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: We're not going to 

6 get into it. Brant, take it down. It would 

7 be the history.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: The history of the 

9 file.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: What it would it 

11 would print would be the history. And it was 

12 actually very easy to navigate from one 

13 finding of a document to the next finding. 

14 But I think you printed them one at a time. 

15 Right?

16 MR. MARSCHKE: You printed them 

17 one at a time or we could print a group of 

18 them. But I would be satisfied with just one 

19 document at a time and every finding would be 

20 on a new page.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. Each 

22 finding would be on a new page and you could 
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1 print the history of the findings and all the 

2 various --

3 MR. MARSCHKE: And all the 

4 responses and back and forth between SC&A and 

5 NIOSH and the Subcommittee.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, what you had 

7 was a PDF.

8 DR. ULSH: That was going to be 

9 the next step that we do once we set it up.

10 MR. MARSCHKE: All right, I just 

11 wanted to get it on the --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: It kind of falls 

13 under the reporting bin.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: It is in the 

15 reporting bin.

16 MR. OYEDIRAN: I'll talk to your 

17 task manager.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: That's good 

19 enough.

20 CHAIR MUNN: This was particularly 

21 important for us as we transfer responsibility 

22 for these files from our Subcommittee -
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: From the most 

2 sophisticated users to less sophisticated 

3 users.

4 CHAIR MUNN: From sophisticated 

5 users and workgroups and back and forth. Yes, 

6 we need a way to make sure that information 

7 transmits completely.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it can go in 

9 writing and it can also be moved on here.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Good. Again, thank 

11 you. And I think we have beaten ourselves up 

12 adequately this morning in time for a brief 

13 coffee break for 15 minutes.

14 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off 

15 the record at 11:05 a.m. and went 

16 back on the record at 11:20 a.m.)

17 MR. KATZ: Okay. So we are 

18 restarting after a short break. This is the 

19 Subcommittee on Procedures Review, Advisory 

20 Board on Radiation and Worker Health.

21 Wanda?

22 CHAIR MUNN: We covered the Norton 
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1 issue and our instruction period for our new -

2 - Should I continue to call it database? 

3 That's the way it comes up in our Board Review 

4 system electronically.

5 The one thing that we had 

6 scheduled for the pre-break period that we 

7 didn't close up for sure was our discussion of 

8 the outstanding OTIB-0070 issues, even though 

9 we touched on them during the Norton 

10 discussion.

11 Let's take a look at what our 

12 current system tells us about OTIB-0070 and 

13 the items that are in progress to see if we 

14 are where we need to be.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Well the first 

16 thing, Wanda, I would like to apologize, I 

17 guess. As I recall, we did work on OTIB-0070 

18 in one of the preceding Subcommittee meetings. 

19 I think it was a meeting or two ago, maybe 

20 back in January or March. I'm not sure which 

21 one.

22 We, I believe, at that time made 
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1 some changes to the statuses and the database 

2 has not been updated to reflect the results of 

3 that meeting. So looking at the database is 

4 not going to give you, in its current form, is 

5 not going to give you the current status of 

6 OTIB-0070 issues.

7 CHAIR MUNN: So we are not 

8 accurate with where we are.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: That's correct.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Let's run down what 

11 this shows just to see if we can reconstruct, 

12 perhaps in your mind, Steve, where we ought to 

13 be and what the action item will be in regard 

14 to this item for our next meeting.

15 This one shows Finding 1 in 

16 progress; Finding 2 in progress; Finding 3 in 

17 progress; 4 is closed; 5 in progress; 6 in 

18 progress; 7 closed; 8 closed; 9 in abeyance; 

19 10 in progress; 11 in progress; 12 addressing 

20 another Finding; 13 in progress; 14 in 

21 progress; and 15 in abeyance. And then memory 

22 tells me, not actual documentation but memory 
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1 tells me that we may have a couple still 

2 outstanding. Does your memory tell you the 

3 same thing?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I believe so and 

5 that is what Jim Neton also said this morning. 

6 CHAIR MUNN: I thought we only had 

7 two --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Two.

9 CHAIR MUNN: -- but my memory was 

10 that the resuspension factors, there are two 

11 of those, were the only ones that were 

12 outstanding.

13 But will it be your action then to 

14 verify for our next meeting that we have --

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Now that we have 

16 been trained in the operation of the database, 

17 we might continue to call it database, we 

18 would have taken an action item, SC&A, I 

19 believe I speak for John Mauro and John Stiver 

20 both of them, that we will update the database 

21 to reflect the activities in the meetings that 

22 we had when we did not have the database 
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1 available to us. I think that is like just 

2 about three or four meetings.

3 CHAIR MUNN: That's three or four 

4 meetings. Yes, it is. So that would be 

5 great.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: So we will go 

7 through the meeting minutes. We might have to 

8 contact Ted to make sure we have copies of all 

9 the meeting minutes, if they are not already 

10 on there.

11 CHAIR MUNN: They are already 

12 posted.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. All the way 

14 up to the last one?

15 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: So then we will 

17 basically go through the meeting minutes to 

18 make sure that whenever the Subcommittee has 

19 posed an issue or made a change to an issue, 

20 it is reflected in the database.

21 MR. KATZ: And Steve you can just 

22 notate at the end of all that what happened 
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1 today since Jim committed to a White Paper to 

2 close out the last two issues.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, for OTIB-0070.

4 CHAIR MUNN: That's good. All 

5 right, we will look forward to seeing that at 

6 our next meeting. The sooner the better.

7 The next item that we have on our 

8 agenda is --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Actually, I think 

10 what Jim committed to was revising the 

11 Evaluation Report rather than actually a White 

12 Paper.

13 MR. KATZ: But he said that --

14 What he said was that the Evaluation Report 

15 doesn't need much revision but he needs to 

16 write a paper related to some of that that is 

17 not in the Evaluation Report, some of the 

18 details that he was talking about.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

20 MR. KATZ: That is what I wrote in 

21 real time as he was speaking.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: The justification 
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1 of the ten to the minus six.

2 DR. ULSH: He didn't use the words 

3 White Paper. He said we need to write up what 

4 we are --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: He needs to do 

6 some writing.

7 MR. KATZ: He needs to do a White 

8 Paper. He may not want to call it that but 

9 that is what he said. I was writing as he was 

10 speaking.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Now it was my 

12 understanding we would have that before the 

13 Board meeting.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: That is our 

15 intention, to have an amended Evaluation 

16 Report and supporting information.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: But remember the 

18 Evaluation Report that is going to be amended 

19 is the Norton.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

21 CHAIR MUNN: It is not this 

22 document.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: No. We have got 

2 to get something in here.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, we will need to.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: I don't think this 

5 will be ready for the Board.

6 CHAIR MUNN: No.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: No. We will focus 

8 on the Evaluation Report. One of my notes is 

9 that we need to revise OTIB-0070 for the same 

10 thing.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that's good. 

12 Anything else on OTIB-0070?

13 Let's move on to a very brief 

14 approved two-pagers for online posting. I was 

15 committed to having the clean copies to Ted so 

16 that he would be working with the NIOSH folks 

17 to get this brand new item online that would 

18 allow people to see all of these completed 

19 two-pagers that we have. Since I have not 

20 provided those to Ted, that makes it 

21 impossible for us to move forward on that at 

22 this meeting.
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1 My question would be whether there 

2 has been any further discussion relative to 

3 how that particular new item on our web page 

4 list is going to appear. I have been told 

5 several times that all we have to do is have 

6 the material and then it is easy to get it up 

7 there. Someone was going to give some 

8 thought, I think NIOSH was going to make the 

9 decision or at least make suggestions with 

10 respect to nomenclature for that particular 

11 bit of the website where we are going to put 

12 the two-pagers.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I don't have 

14 anything to report today because there is a 

15 broader effort going on to put some of SC&A's 

16 original review documents on the website. 

17 Whereas, some of the, you know usually the 

18 site-specific reviews that SC&A has provided, 

19 those usually end up on our website relatively 

20 quickly. That has not always been the case 

21 with these compendia of procedure requests.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So the actions 

2 that I know of as we are gathering the

3 versions and they have to be what we call 508 

4 compliant, --

5 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: -- meaning they 

7 have to be readable by people who are blind. 

8 And they didn't have to be. You know when 

9 these were delivered there was no requirement 

10 for that.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is my 

12 understanding that is a new requirement.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: So part of it is 

14 to make versions that are 508 compliant, get 

15 them to us. And there are still some 

16 decisions on our part about where. You know, 

17 I would think they would have their own page 

18 in terms of procedure reviews.

19 And in my way of thinking either 

20 co-located immediately after a procedure 

21 review or very easily linkable to it, is you 

22 would link to one of these two, which are 
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1 essentially the summary of the Board's 

2 deliberation of the findings.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Not all of them will 

4 be included there. So I had envisioned them 

5 as having their own web page --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well I was 

7 thinking both.

8 CHAIR MUNN: -- so that there is 

9 direct access to them.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I was thinking 

11 both. If you do, you know, you can see them 

12 all in one place but you will also be able to 

13 -- I was thinking of a link from the findings, 

14 the page where you see the document findings, 

15 a link from that page to the how was it 

16 resolved.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Now, we had 

18 originally said that when we did put the web 

19 page up that we would have a hotlink on the 

20 two-pagers that would make it possible for you 

21 to go to the full review if that is in fact 

22 what you wanted to see.
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1 But with any luck at all by the 

2 time we get to our next meeting Ted will have 

3 a, hopefully we will all have a better idea of 

4 where it is going to go and someone will have 

5 suggested a title for what we are going to 

6 use.

7 The next item on our agenda is 

8 review of OTIB-0002 open items, that 

9 everything that is relevant is addressed in 

10 the replacement procedures. Well I think 

11 everybody knows what that means. If that 

12 needs further explanation, let me know. And 

13 in any case, I am now going to make a brave 

14 effort to use our new system to pull up OTIB15 0002 to see what we had to say.

16 Sure enough. Have we all been 

17 able to find it? And we see we have two in 

18 abeyance. This is a NIOSH action, I believe.

19 DR. ULSH: Yes. Wanda, I think we 

20 had some questions about exactly what the 

21 resolution would look like here. Elyse, are 

22 you online?
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1 MS. BRACKETT: I think she wants 

2 me to handle it. This is Liz.

3 DR. ULSH: Oh, Liz. Okay.

4 MS. BRACKETT: That's all right. 

5 Go ahead. I really don't have a clear 

6 understanding of what specifically is wanted 

7 for this action item to address the issues 

8 here.

9 The OTIB was canceled and I think 

10 there was some direction to address these 

11 issues and how they were addressed in other 

12 documents. But the documents that are used 

13 instead are very different approaches. And so 

14 I don't understand what specifically is the 

15 direction.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Let me see if my 

17 memory serves me well enough to be able to 

18 explain it a little better.

19 It was our concern that these two 

20 items that are in abeyance here waiting for 

21 procedural incomplete references. I see RP-30 

22 and 66 were mentioned in the text but not 
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1 listed in the references and technical issue 

2 ratings.

3 It was our understanding that 

4 OTIB-0002 had been replaced primarily, is my 

5 memory correct, with OTIB-0018? Is that 

6 right?

7 MS. BRACKETT: It is an indirect 

8 replacement. The two of them were in use at 

9 the same time for quite some time and then 

10 OTIB-0002 was canceled as it was slowly phased 

11 out. So OTIB-0018 would be something that 

12 could be used for the same types of cases.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Right. I think the 

14 concern of the Subcommittee was that to assure 

15 that all of the items that had previously been 

16 listed in OTIB-0002 did in fact find a home in 

17 the appropriate way and other procedures that 

18 had succeeded it. And I recall our primary 

19 discussion centered around OTIB-0018, I 

20 believe, to see whether 18 adequately 

21 addresses the issues that were put forth in 

22 these findings.
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1 Is that more clear or am I just 

2 refusing the issue?

3 MS. BRACKETT: Well, can I give 

4 you an example and see if this is the kind of 

5 thing you are looking for? Because I am not 

6 quite clear.

7 But I think one of the issues that 

8 was listed for OTIB-0002 was the material 

9 types that were chosen. And in OTIB-0002 we 

10 use whatever is the most claimant favorable 

11 material type. Would be that the kind of 

12 thing that is being looked for or something 

13 different from that?

14 CHAIR MUNN: Possibly so. Do you 

15 have this finding in front of you, Liz?

16 MS. BRACKETT: No. I have the 

17 two-page document, the overview of OTIB-0002. 

18 But I don't have -- what is the title of that 

19 one?

20 CHAIR MUNN: It's Tritium 

21 Calculation with IMBA.

22 MS. BRACKETT: Oh, tritium
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1 calculation with IMBA.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: That's not OTIB3 0002. 

4 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, sorry. I pulled 

5 up the wrong thing.

6 MR. STIVER: This is John Stiver. 

7 I have the transcript in front of me from the 

8 last meeting and on page 48, Stu had some 

9 comments here. They had two action items. 

10 The first one being specific findings to 

11 provide our take on whether they are relevant 

12 at all. And so were they addressed.

13 But the one I remember, the second 

14 finding is to decide to take a look at the 

15 alternative approach, the approaches in OTIB16 0018 and be sure that the doses that are 

17 calculated from OTIB-0018 would not be higher 

18 than those calculated in OTIB-0002. Because 

19 OTIB-0002 was this kind of a super maximizing 

20 approach, the gigantic intake at one time and 

21 whereas 18 is much more refined. The feeling 

22 was that the doses calculated using OTIB-0018 
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1 would be much lower. And so it was going to 

2 be to go and verify that that was indeed the 

3 case. There wouldn't be situations where you 

4 could have had a higher dose using OTIB-0018 

5 as with OTIB-0002.

6 MS. BRACKETT: I guess I don't 

7 understand why it would be a problem if they 

8 were larger, since it is supposed to be an 

9 overestimate in either case. But it is going 

10 to be on a case-by-case basis. It is not 

11 something that we could do through a 

12 calculation and say yes this would be the case 

13 for all circumstances. It would have to be, 

14 we would have to look at each individual case 

15 to determine if OTIB-0018 was larger or 

16 smaller.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: From a purely 

18 administrative point of view, if you look at I 

19 guess there were 18 findings associated with 

20 OTIB-0002, right now a number of them that 

21 have been closed. There are a number of them 

22 that are in abeyance and there still are a 
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1 number of them that are identified as being 

2 open.

3 Eventually, we are going to want a 

4 disposition all those findings to closed for 

5 some reason. And I think really it is more of 

6 an exercise of going to and looking at the 

7 particularly the open findings and seeing 

8 whether or not the finding is applicable to 

9 maybe OTIB-0018 or some other OTIB or 

10 basically it is no longer applicable for such 

11 and such a reason and then we can close that 

12 finding. Maybe the same is also true for the 

13 ones that are in abeyance. Because in 

14 abeyance, we have kind of come to a meeting of 

15 the minds as to, well, this should be the 

16 solution. NIOSH really hadn't implemented 

17 that solution in OTIB-0002 but did they 

18 implement that solution in some other OTIB or 

19 again, is that solution no longer relevant.

20 Again, so we can go through them 

21 and get rid of those and close out those in 

22 abeyance findings. That is from looking at it 
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1 from an administrative point of view and not 

2 really a technical point of view.

3 MS. BRACKETT: Okay. I noticed 

4 that on the document that was sent out 

5 summarizing it, some of the findings are the 

6 same. Findings 8 and 18 are identical and 

7 there is at least two others that were the 

8 same thing.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: That is a good 

10 point. We can clean it up.

11 MS. BRACKETT: Okay, I think I have 

12 a better understanding now of what is being 

13 looked for.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Here is the -- I 

15 have a question. I mean a lot of these things 

16 refer to things that were done in OTIB-0002 

17 that just aren't done anymore. So I mean is 

18 it as simple as putting in a statement in our 

19 response field that this practice, you know 

20 this decision on fraction and fractional 

21 retention values is not utilized in any --

22 CHAIR MUNN: Is no longer used.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Is no longer used 

2 by any other or in any approach.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Absolutely.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: And that can be 

5 closed.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Absolutely.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So our 

8 action here is to put stuff in the database. 

9 Because I was looking through these and a lot 

10 of these, it seems to me, they just 

11 automatically are going to fall off.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I think most of 

13 them are.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

15 CHAIR MUNN: I somehow had the 

16 idea from our previous discussions that there 

17 were only two or three in here that we needed 

18 to make sure were covered by other documents. 

19 And as we have already discussed, OTIB-0018 

20 was the one most frequently mentioned as 

21 having replaced some of these items. But if 

22 they are no longer used, then all we need to 
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1 say is the practices are no longer applicable 

2 to --

3 MS. THOMAS: Yes, this is Elyse. 

4 Stu, I did -- I don't see it here. I remember 

5 entering that comment into the database when 

6 we canceled OTIB-0002. And I am thinking I 

7 entered them into what was DCTA at that time. 

8 So I am not sure why they aren't showing up 

9 here.

10 The comment was just a generic one 

11 about OTIB-0002 has been canceled because it 

12 is no longer used.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Pardon me. That was 

14 not the concern of the Subcommittee. The 

15 concern of the Subcommittee was that the 

16 finding was covered in whatever disposition 

17 was made. So if the finding is covered in 

18 some other document, we need to say so.

19 MS. THOMAS: Yes.

20 CHAIR MUNN: And it may be that 

21 what you have entered previously falls in that 

22 well that we have between our old system and 
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1 our new system of tracking things.

2 DR. ULSH: It sounds like the 

3 NIOSH action item for the next meeting on 

4 these particular items associated with OTIB5 0002, to go through and make sure that the 

6 database is updated with things that have 

7 happened. But if we have a comment that even 

8 if we made it before and it got lost in the 

9 cracks somewhere between DCTA and whatever we 

10 are calling this, we will just put it back in. 

11 And that response shouldn't be OTIB-0002 was 

12 canceled. It should be the technical content 

13 of this comment is no longer relevant because 

14 this approach is no longer used.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Exactly. Paul?

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: And I'm looking 

17 back at my own notes from that meeting. And 

18 one of the action items I jotted down was 

19 NIOSH was to look at the open items and see if 

20 any of those are still relevant.

21 I think the abeyance items are 

22 ones that we have agreed have been taken care 
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1 of in one way or the other but we may not -- I 

2 guess we would have to look at them one by 

3 one.

4 DR. ULSH: Yes, we have agreed on 

5 a path forward but they haven't been open --

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: And with these 

7 open items, the question is, are they 

8 relevant. And I don't know if we do that here 

9 or whether NIOSH has to ask itself is it 

10 relevant or is it closed out by the fact that 

11 we don't use it anymore or something like 

12 that.

13 DR. ULSH: I think we are at a 

14 stage now where the database, it is not 

15 perfect but it is up and running to the point 

16 where a lot of time over the next meeting, 

17 maybe two meetings, are going to be making 

18 sure we have caught up with all of the status 

19 and all the developments that have happened. 

20 A lot of these things are going to be closed 

21 out because they were just hanging out there 

22 to verify that.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: And there have been 

2 some concerns raised over the maximizing 

3 approach and how that water was not covered 

4 appropriately in other documents.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: I had also made a 

6 note that NIOSH was also going to consider 

7 whether a PER was needed. And I guess that 

8 arose out of the fact that a lot of the early 

9 cases were done with this one.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Well the only time 

11 we would do that would be --

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right. I 

13 understand. Because presumably, this always 

14 gave a larger dose.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: And that is why 

17 that question came up is it always true.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: That's why we 

19 asked that question.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: You asked the 

21 question and Liz has said that it is a case22 by-case basis. And it raised the question of 
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1 were there cases under this approach that 

2 would get a higher dosage with a new approach.

3 In other words, we were assuming 

4 the new approach actually gave somewhat lower 

5 maximizing doses. And the question was, is 

6 that always the case. 

7 Liz, I think that was the context 

8 before where we were wondering. Since it is a 

9 case-by-case basis, does NIOSH have to 

10 consider whether or not a PER is needed by 

11 dropping the 0002 and going to the 0018?

12 I think that was the issue.

13 MR. KATZ: But if OTIB-0018 is a 

14 maximizing --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: They are both 

16 maximizing.

17 MR. STIVER: OTIB-0002 was 

18 maximizing and OTIB-0018 was a little more of 

19 a realistic approach.

20 MR. KATZ: Is OTIB-0018 being 

21 used?

22 MS. BRACKETT: Well, they are both 
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1 overestimates.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: They are both 

3 overestimates.

4 MS. BRACKETT: I don't know if 

5 maximizing is an appropriate word but they are 

6 both overestimates.

7 So if OTIB-0018 was larger than --

8 Well I mean they are only used for 

9 noncompensable cases.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: If it is an 

11 overestimate, it really doesn't matter.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

13 MS. BRACKETT: Right.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: You would never 

15 get to a PER.

16 MS. BRACKETT: Right. Well, if it 

17 made it compensable, --

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: Then you would go 

19 back and do it.

20 MS. BRACKETT: -- then you would 

21 have to do a best estimate.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: A best estimate 
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1 anyway.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: So does that 

3 action drop off then, that compares?

4 CHAIR MUNN: Does what action drop 

5 off?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: The action to sort 

7 of make some sort of a decision about is there 

8 a case or would there be a set of 

9 circumstances where OTIB-0018 would create a 

10 larger or smaller --

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: A larger estimate.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: -- a larger 

13 estimate than OTIB-0002.

14 MR. STIVER: Really all it is 

15 going to do is trigger a best estimate 

16 calculation.

17 MR. KATZ: So it makes no 

18 difference.

19 DR. ULSH: Right. So it sounds 

20 like we might have committed to that last 

21 meeting or maybe the meeting before and now we 

22 are saying there is no point.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Well what we had said 

2 last meeting is that there are pieces of OTIB3 0002, even though it has been canceled, if we 

4 have any piece of that that is still an action 

5 that needs to be pursued, is that properly 

6 incorporated in another document. That is the 

7 bottom line.

8 MR. KATZ: And they have that as 

9 an action item already to figure out which are 

10 obsolete and which might still have relevance 

11 because they are an element of some other 

12 procedure.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that is the 

14 bottom line, I think.

15 So we know what we are doing here.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Does that include 

17 the abeyance side of things, you will take a 

18 look at them as well?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. A lot of 

20 those are in abeyance but the document doesn't 

21 explain things very clearly.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right.
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1 DR. ULSH: But even with those, 

2 the next development on that is for us to go 

3 in and say this is no longer an issue.

4 MR. KATZ: Exactly.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: I think what we 

6 hoped to do, I don't want to put words in the 

7 Subcommittee's mouth, but I think what we hope 

8 to do is at a future meeting of the 

9 Subcommittee, go through the OTIB-0002 

10 findings and close them all out.

11 CHAIR MUNN: That is what we all 

12 want to do.

13 DR. ULSH: The next two 

14 developments are for us to go in and say here 

15 is what we think. This is no longer relevant 

16 or here is where it has been dealt with. And 

17 then at the next meeting of this committee, 

18 you pick up those responses and say yes we 

19 agree or there is another action.

20 CHAIR MUNN: We agree, closed, 

21 closed, closed. That is what we hope to do.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: The other things 
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1 is, if you just look at the name of the two 

2 documents we have been talking about OTIB-0002 

3 and OTIB-0018, you can see that OTIB-0002 is 

4 called a maximum internal dose and OTIB-0018, 

5 if you look at it is called internal dose 

6 overestimates. So there is, you know, they 

7 are both overestimates but one of them is a 

8 little bit --

9 DR. ULSH: It has been tapped down 

10 a bit in comparison.

11 MS. BRACKETT: Well, I think that 

12 is more a function of when they were written. 

13 Early on in the project we were talking about 

14 maximizing approaches and that terminology 

15 changed.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: So it is really a 

17 terminology change than it is a technical 

18 difference.

19 MS. BRACKETT: The methodology is 

20 different and that is part of it. It is a 

21 result of things changing over time. OTIB22 0002 is based on acute intakes; whereas over 
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1 time the process became to assign chronic 

2 intakes and that is what OTIB-0018.

3 So it is just kind of an evolution 

4 over the lifetime of the project as to see 

5 what was decided to be a better method.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

7 CHAIR MUNN: And anything else on 

8 that issue? Everybody understands what we are 

9 doing this time.

10 All right. The next item is OTIB11 0010. We were going to review all the items. 

12 NIOSH apparently was going to use the MCNP 

13 runs to show that we were able to close out 

14 all the items here. 

15 John Mauro, are you on line?

16 CHAIR MUNN: I recall John had 

17 something to say about OTIB-0010 last time we 

18 talked about it.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, OTIB-0010 is 

20 not in the database. Look at the email I sent 

21 you.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: It's DCAS-0010.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, but DCAS-0010 

2 has nothing in it.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Are they all 

4 switched to DCAS now instead of OCAS? Yes, 

5 here it is.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: DCAS-0010 and there 

7 is nothing in the database. So the findings 

8 that were associated with OCAS TIB-0010 did 

9 not get carried over into DCAS TIB-0010.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: I wonder if that

11 is because of the title change. Are the old 

12 OCAS numbers still in here?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: No. I couldn't 

14 find it. Let's put it that way.

15 CHAIR MUNN: We didn't have ten 

16 TIBs? We had eight items apparently, at 

17 least. We talked about -- hold on.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have a note that 

19 we closed Finding 1 at the last meeting but 

20 the other findings were made in abeyance. And 

21 NIOSH to respond to Bob's analysis.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Yes, I 
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1 believe that is right. Prior to the last 

2 meeting, NIOSH gave us the -- is Bob Anigstein 

3 on the phone?

4 CHAIR MUNN: This is the Attila.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, this is the 

6 Attila thing. Prior to the last meeting, 

7 NIOSH gave us the Attila runs or they gave us 

8 Revision 1 to TIB-0010 and we looked at -- it 

9 had an appendix that had all the Attila input 

10 not the MCNP input. Bob looked at it and we 

11 could not duplicate the MCNP runs. We 

12 couldn't get the input to work in MCNP.

13 So I think we asked for the runs. 

14 I'm not sure if NIOSH gave us the runs. 

15 Perhaps they did.

16 DR. ULSH: We did and I think Bob 

17 did some runs of his own. And I talked to --

18 MR. STIVER: Bob is going to be 

19 calling in.

20 DR. ULSH: Well this is going to 

21 be very simple. I talked to Greg Macievic and 

22 basically in order to see what Bob's comments 
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1 are, we need to get the input decks that he 

2 ran.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, okay.

4 DR. ULSH: Yes, we just need to 

5 get those inputs so we can see what it is that 

6 exactly he did and what the discrepancies 

7 were.

8 MR. STIVER: I had in the excerpts 

9 from the transcript that you guys had an 

10 action item to verify what Bob had done when 

11 we come back. So I guess that is where we are 

12 at this point.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, did he still 

14 get different results? Is that what you are 

15 saying?

16 DR. ULSH: At the last meeting, 

17 Bob said he did some MCNP runs and got 

18 different results than what we got.

19 DR. ANIGSTEIN: By the way, this 

20 is Bob Anigstein, I am here now.

21 DR. ULSH: So in order to address 

22 that, we are going to need to see the inputs 
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1 that you used Bob. If we could get those from 

2 you, we will run them. We will compare them 

3 to see what we did and see where the 

4 differences come from.

5 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I'm sorry. You 

6 are wanting our MCNP runs?

7 DR. ULSH: Yes.

8 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay.

9 DR. ULSH: The input decks so that 

10 we can run them and see what --

11 I mean obviously, if you got 

12 different results from what we got, the 

13 difference comes from the --

14 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Well, if you 

15 reviewed my -- I prepared a report. I assume 

16 it was circulated. I don't know. Steve, was 

17 this report circulated that I prepared, 

18 Resolution of SC&A findings on DCAS TIB-0010.

19 DR. ULSH: I think it was because 

20 that is what I gave to Greg Macievic. He said 

21 in order to address it, he needs to get the 

22 input. 
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: That was the last 

2 meeting.

3 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Let me see what 

4 the date on this was. This was March 21st and 

5 there were nine findings, some of which were 

6 editorial and then a number were substantive. 

7 And the reasons I mean, I explained the 

8 reasons why we got different numbers. So it 

9 is not some MCNP magic.

10 DR. ULSH: I'm not implying that 

11 that is the case. It is just --

12 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Excuse me?

13 DR. ULSH: I'm not staying that it 

14 is MCNP magic or anything like that.

15 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No, no. I'm 

16 sorry. I didn't mean to be flippant. What I 

17 meant was we use different physics. So I can 

18 certainly send you the input files.

19 DR. ULSH: Yes.

20 DR. ANIGSTEIN: But I think the 

21 report clarifies that when we ran your files 

22 we got the same results. We made some 
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1 improvements and various reductions, some 

2 little technical refinements working with sort 

3 of a professional perfectionist on this. But 

4 the results were, you know, within a couple of 

5 percents. There was no difference in the way 

6 you ran it and the way we ran it. However, we 

7 then said we don't agree with the geometry and 

8 we ran what we consider a more realistic 

9 geometry and we got very different results.

10 So if we are not -- I mean, I 

11 don't know if it would make sense for me to go 

12 over the differences and then I can just --

13 DR. ULSH: No, we got your report 

14 and Greg has that. And in order to write up a 

15 response to that report, we would just like to 

16 have the input decks that you ran so that we 

17 can --

18 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay. Not a 

19 problem.

20 DR. ULSH: And then we will do 

21 whatever we want to do with that but then we 

22 will write up a response to your technical 
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1 report of March 21st.

2 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay. So we will 

3 provide you with the input decks for -- Okay. 

4 Probably I will try to write up a little memo 

5 to tell you which geometry. 

6 DR. ULSH: Okay.

7 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I will key it into 

8 the report so that it will --

9 DR. ULSH: Yes, that would be 

10 helpful.

11 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Or maybe the 

12 simplest thing I will just take the report and 

13 simply insert into it the name of the MCNP 

14 file for each run. I will refer to it we did 

15 a run doing such and such and we did so. So I 

16 will simply put in the name of the MCNP file 

17 into the report. I think that will be the 

18 easiest, if that is agreeable to everyone. 

19 And then I will -- And of course, I will 

20 append the report.

21 Yes, we can get those out to you 

22 probably today. So who should this be 
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1 distributed to?

2 DR. ULSH: Just send it to me and 

3 I will get it to Greg. This is Brant Ulsh.

4 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay.

5 DR. ULSH: I think that --

6 DR. ANIGSTEIN: We have a 

7 distribution list that we put everyone on copy 

8 as a procedure. So people will be getting it 

9 whether they want it or not.

10 DR. ULSH: That will be fine. I 

11 think that these are relevant to Findings 8 

12 and 9.

13 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Let's see. 

14 Finding -- yes. Findings 8 --

15 MR. MARSCHKE: I've got Finding 9 

16 being closed.

17 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, I would agree 

18 with that.

19 Let's see. If I can just ask a 

20 procedural question of Ted Katz. 

21 MR. KATZ: Yes.

22 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Is it okay for me 
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1 to send it immediately without going through 

2 channels?

3 MR. KATZ: Absolutely. That is 

4 not a problem.

5 DR. ANIGSTEIN: That is fine?

6 MR. KATZ: Yes.

7 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Good. Will do. 

8 Okay, yes, exactly 8 and 9. Okay, you will be 

9 getting that before the end of the day.

10 DR. ULSH: Thank you.

11 CHAIR MUNN: So I have as action 

12 items that SC&A is going to provide their 

13 documentation and NIOSH will then review and 

14 respond back to us at our next meeting. 

15 Correct?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Correct.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. It is 

18 exactly 12:00 o'clock and the agenda says 

19 lunch. Is it your hope that we can go to 

20 lunch now or would you like to forge on for a 

21 little bit?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I always like to 
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1 eat lunch.

2 CHAIR MUNN: I'm always ready for 

3 lunch myself. So unless I hear any contrary 

4 remarks to that suggestion, we will adjourn 

5 for one hour for lunch and be back here at 

6 1:00 o'clock.

7 (Whereupon, at 12:00 p.m. a lunch 

8 recess was taken.)

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1

2

3 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

4 (1:09 p.m.)

5 MR. KATZ: Good afternoon. This 

6 is the Subcommittee on Procedures Review 

7 Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health. 

8 We are just getting going again after a lunch 

9 break.

10 Let me just check on the line. I 

11 got an email from one Board Member saying he 

12 might be joining us. Do we have any Board 

13 Members on the line?

14 (Pause.)

15 MR. KATZ: Okay, not at this 

16 point. Wanda, it is your agenda.

17 CHAIR MUNN: We will continue our 

18 after lunch menu with the carry-over items 

19 that we show on our agenda. The first one of 

20 which is OTIB-21-04, responses due on the 

21 partial issue -- partial year issue from 

22 NIOSH.
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1 Let's just for the fun of it take 

2 a look at how our new material is presented to 

3 us on the electronic database. Have we all 

4 reached OTIB-0021 External Coworker Dosimetry 

5 Data for the X-10 Site. Are we all on? And 

6 tracking just for the record, we are showing 

7 the first finding to be in abeyance; the 

8 second finding to be in progress; the third 

9 one to be closed; and Finding 04, which is the 

10 one which we are to address today is in 

11 progress, which explains why it is a NIOSH 

12 item.

13 Brant?

14 DR. ULSH: Yes, this is one where 

15 we actually had a bit of a lengthy response 

16 and we could only fit part of it into the 

17 database at the time of the last meeting. I 

18 have now sent up the full response. I sent 

19 that out on the 11th, which is only a few days 

20 ago. It is a pretty long response, so I don't 

21 anticipate that anyone has had any time to 

22 really digest it.
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1 Elyse, is anyone on the line? Is 

2 Scott maybe on the line to kind of walk us 

3 through this?

4 MR. SIEBERT: I am on here, 

5 however I don't have the information on this.

6 DR. ULSH: Oh, that's right. I'm 

7 sorry. I remember now. In the email when I 

8 sent this out, Matt Smith is the author of 

9 this. He is out on medical leave. In the 

10 short term anyway, I figured people would want 

11 some time to review it. So a response has 

12 been provided now. I think the next step 

13 would be probably for SC&A to review our 

14 response and weigh in.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: That was an email 

16 that you sent?

17 DR. ULSH: On 7/11, July 11th.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: 7/11 21-04. Okay, 

19 yes we did receive it. We have not.

20 CHAIR MUNN: So we should have the 

21 response.

22 DR. ULSH: And we will be putting 
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1 the full response into the database, now that 

2 it is accessible. I can do that.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Seven when?

4 DR. ULSH: The 11th. It would 

5 have been Monday.

6 CHAIR MUNN: I think I saw it but 

7 did not put it anywhere. Okay. So it is now 

8 in SC&A's hands to see and respond to next 

9 time. Right? Do you want, for the sake of 

10 this record, tell us, give us a brief summary 

11 of what the response is?

12 DR. ULSH: Well, I can only tell 

13 you what it is about. It has to do with 

14 partial year and external dosimetry results 

15 and how we deal with partial years for X-10.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: That's because the 

17 X-10 coworker data came out of a particular 

18 database. CEDR. And so you get these CEDR 

19 data fields. The issue was that with some of 

20 these people, there is more than one entry per 

21 year. So how do you know that you have 

22 covered the whole year? There might be other 
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1 parts that are not monitored. How do you know 

2 you have got the correct interpretation of 

3 what these data say?

4 MR. STIVER: I think our concern 

5 was -- I wasn't involved in this before but 

6 from what I am reading our concern was that 

7 the values reported were considered to be full 

8 year, 12-month doses and we were concerned 

9 there might situations where someone might 

10 leave early, you know retire or for whatever 

11 reason would have a partial coverage and that 

12 would be assigned for the full year when 

13 really they may have had, they might not have 

14 covered the actual --

15 DR. ULSH: Yes, and I think the 

16 response -- We talked about this at the last 

17 meeting, somewhat. And I think the response 

18 said something to do with how we assigned 

19 missed dose.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

21 DR. ULSH: And at the time, it 

22 sounded like, I think you indicated it sounded 
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1 reasonable but that is not the finding, of 

2 course.

3 MR. STIVER: Yes, I think we would 

4 have to sometime put together a formal 

5 response.

6 CHAIR MUNN: All right. These are 

7 now on our carry-overs for our next meeting.

8 The next item that we have would 

9 be OTIB-0051, item 01.

10 DR. ULSH: All of these items and 

11 the next three or four, 51-01, 47-02, and 

12 OTIB-0019 are similar in that they are 

13 database linking issues. We really made an 

14 effort to get that done in the last foray 

15 before this meeting but we weren't able to do 

16 that.

17 That is going to be real quick. 

18 It is one of those items that we have 

19 essentially closed but we just wanted to

20 verify that the link is made in the database. 

21 So that is going to be pretty quick to do, 

22 now that the database is up and running. We 
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1 just weren't able to get it done before this 

2 one. But you will probably be getting an 

3 email from us within the next week or two that 

4 says okay, it has now been linked. Here is 

5 how you check it out. And it will be a pretty 

6 simple matter to close.

7 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: And that covers 

9 all four of those, 51-01; 47-02; and 19? Just 

10 those three?

11 DR. ULSH: Just those three, yes.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay.

13 CHAIR MUNN: They are essentially 

14 done but not linked properly.

15 DR. ULSH: Right. We just wanted 

16 to close the loop on the linking issue.

17 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Then we 

18 have now, much sooner than expected, arrived 

19 at TIB-0013, which we were going to have some 

20 information on the rewrite of Findings 3 and 

21 4. I wonder -- do we know if Bob has joined 

22 us yet?
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1 MR. KATZ: Bob Anigstein, are you 

2 on the line?

3 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes.

4 MR. KATZ: Okay, great.

5 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you for being 

6 early, Bob. We appreciate it.

7 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Huh?

8 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you for being 

9 early. We appreciate it.

10 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay. Let's see 

11 now. I believe that these three -- Yes, we 

12 wrote 3 and 4 and I think they have 

13 essentially been resolved.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: We, for the 

15 Committee, Bob has rewrote 3, 4, and 5, 

16 actually. He has 3, 4, and 5, actually.

17 DR. ANIGSTEIN: You are correct.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: And the revised 

19 edits are now in the database. So if you want 

20 for example on item number issue 3, I am 

21 showing Bob's, up on the screen, edited 

22 version of it, based upon the discussion that 
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1 took place, I think it was back in January, at 

2 the January meeting. 

3 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Should I just read 

4 that one comment?

5 CHAIR MUNN: Hold on for just a 

6 moment, Bob. We are trying to get our 

7 personal computers into the right field of 

8 information.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Mine doesn't show 

10 any findings.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: It is OCAS-TIB with 

12 one -- I think it is OCAS dash TIB-013.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: Only one zero?

14 MR. MARSCHKE: Only one zero. And 

15 I think there is a duplicate in there OCAS 

16 TIB- 0013, which basically a cleanup issue of 

17 the database.

18 MR. STIVER: Well I've got 0013 

19 here.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Don't look at 

21 that one.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Don't look at 
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1 that.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: I think there is an 

3 OCAS TIB-013.

4 MR. STIVER: Zero, one, three. 

5 Okay, I have zero, one, three.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, right now, it 

7 is listed as in abeyance. I'm not sure that 

8 that is the right listing. If you look at the 

9 very end, if you look up, I think the status 

10 was inadvertently changed to in abeyance.

11 MR. STIVER: It should have been 

12 in progress.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: I think it should 

14 be in progress. But now that I understand how 

15 to --

16 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I believe that --

17 Are we talking about issue 3?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

19 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Issue 3, I think, 

20 was closed.

21 MR. MARSCHKE: It was closed?

22 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Let me just read 
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1 the comment. I didn't want to say it is 

2 closed. Let the workgroup apprise yourself. 

3 The response to issue 3, the final comment of 

4 issue 3 was "We wish to recharacterize our 

5 findings. Review of objective 1.3 that is 

6 part of our procedure asks if the procedure is 

7 complete in terms of required data. We 

8 construe that to mean is the DR given adequate 

9 information to apply the procedure. Under 

10 that interpretation, we find that the 

11 procedure is complete and we changed the 

12 rating from three to five. So that means we 

13 no longer have an issue.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: I'm not sure how we 

15 handle that, Bob, from an administrative point 

16 of view. Because basically what you are 

17 saying is SC&A has rescinded that issue 

18 because before we had it as a three and now we 

19 are basically making it -- in our checklist a 

20 five when we make an issue of a five in 

21 response to our checklist item, that means 

22 there is no issue associated with it.
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1 DR. ANIGSTEIN: That's right. 

2 Five means good.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: Right. Now but in 

4 the database, we have this issue out there and 

5 if you look at the one above it, it says we 

6 recommended the last change was to change the 

7 status to "in progress." And I am not sure. 

8 We would have to go back and look at the 

9 minutes of the meeting to see whether or not 

10 the Subcommittee actually changed it to in 

11 progress or changed it to in abeyance.

12 But regardless of what they did in 

13 the last meeting, Bob is saying that right now 

14 SC&A doesn't feel that there is any problem 

15 with this and if the Subcommittees were to 

16 agree with that, then we can close this issue.

17 DR. ANIGSTEIN: This goes back to 

18 actually January 7th.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

20 MR. STIVER: Yes, so that would be 

21 -- let's see what we have.

22 CHAIR MUNN: And now at this 
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1 juncture we have an opportunity to do our 

2 first change of status and added information.

3 Can we do this online where we are right now?

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Well, I will click 

5 on the edit status button. And basically I 

6 will do this on behalf of myself, I guess, 

7 because I can't do it on behalf of Wanda. 

8 CHAIR MUNN: Why not?

9 MR. MARSCHKE: Because Wanda's 

10 name doesn't show up.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Oh my goodness.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Maybe I can do it 

13 on behalf of John Stiver. Okay and it shows 

14 up closed. SC&A has --

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: What's the finding 

16 that we are --

17 CHAIR MUNN: Finding number 3, 

18 that it was about the rating of the finding. 

19 And after following things through, they have 

20 withdrawn the issue. They felt the rating was 

21 5, which is not a dire consequence to be 

22 carried.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: I'm looking at 

2 what is in here now on yesterday's date.

3 CHAIR MUNN: On yesterday's date.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: I can't show that.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: The status was 

6 inadvertently changed. Am I looking at the 

7 right one?

8 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Yes, I put 

9 that in.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yesterday.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: I was under the 

12 impression that it was in progress. That this 

13 issue was in progress but I could have been 

14 wrong on that. And I will go back in and 

15 maybe we can add that statement.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well, I am just 

17 reading what is written. When it says it did 

18 not work.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: I couldn't --

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, I see.

21 MR. STIVER: I think he was just 

22 trying to change the status.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: I tried to change 

2 the status. I didn't understand how the 

3 database was working.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: So while you are 

5 looking at that, why do -- you said this 

6 document is actually 013 not 0013. There is 

7 an 0013 but each of these sub things are 

8 identified as 0013 items. That is confusing 

9 me because there is a separate document in our 

10 system which is 0013.

11 MR. STIVER: I think I have two 

12 different entries for the same document and 

13 one is complete and the other isn't. I'm not 

14 quite sure why that is.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: It is a cleanup. 

16 We have a --

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: This document is 

18 actually 0013?

19 CHAIR MUNN: I thought so.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes, there is only 

21 one.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, there's only 
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1 one TIB-13. 

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: But to pull it up, 

3 you can't do 0013. You have to pull up 013.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I think from the 

5 way the database is currently structured, yes, 

6 you have to go to 013.

7 DR. ANIGSTEIN: This is Bob 

8 Anigstein. I just checked on the DCAS 

9 website. And on the DCAS website it is listed 

10 as DCAS-TIB-0013, Rev 01, just as a point of 

11 information.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: The database here 

13 lists both of them.

14 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I understand that. 

15 I was just, I thought I would just throw in 

16 that additional -

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: If you tried to 

18 put 0013 on the database, you don't get the 

19 right --

20 MR. MARSCHKE: There is a whole 

21 series of OCAS-TIBs that are entered into the 

22 database twice, once as 00 number and once as 
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1 the 0 number. So there is a whole series of 

2 them.

3 MEMBER ZIEMER: Got you.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: So there is a whole 

5 series of them. If you look here during the 

6 beta testing, if you will, of those database, 

7 we have discovered this and they have not had 

8 an opportunity, the IT people have not had the 

9 opportunity to make the correction yet. But 

10 one of them will be removed and the other one 

11 --

12 Right now, the problem is the 

13 issues are associated with the 013 and not the 

14 0013. So the data is in there for the 013 and 

15 so they either have to, you know, --

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: You look up 0013 

17 and you don't get anything.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: In the database, 

19 you're going to get nothing. Like Bob says, 

20 if you looked it up on the NIOSH website, that 

21 is the one you would find.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Well now I have an 
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1 entirely different response from my search. 

2 My search gives me DCAS-TIB-0013: Selected 

3 Geometric Exposure Scenario Considerations for 

4 External Dose Reconstruction at Uranium 

5 Facilities. And it also gives me ORAUT-OTIB6 0013, which is Individual dose Adjustment 

7 Procedures for Y-12 Dose Reconstruction.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: And that is also 

9 the wrong one.

10 MR. STIVER: The one we are 

11 looking at is the Special External Dose 

12 Reconstruction Considerations for Mallinckrodt 

13 Workers.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: So even though it 

15 is in twice, Steve, it has different titles 

16 also. That is the confusing part.

17 CHAIR MUNN: And neither of those 

18 shows on my list as one of the TIB-0013s.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Now we want the 

20 one that is in our database as 013 

21 Mallinckrodt worker one. Right? 

22 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I'm not at 
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1 Mallinckrodt. I'm at other uranium facilities 

2 or at Y-12.

3 MR. STIVER: One way to make it a 

4 little easier is you can filter it on TIBs to 

5 start with.

6 CHAIR MUNN: That's okay.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: You have got to 

8 pull it up as 013 is the problem.

9 CHAIR MUNN: There it is, 

10 Mallinckrodt. That is bad when we have three 

11 different 13s.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: It breeds 

13 confusion.

14 CHAIR MUNN: It is a big 

15 confusion.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, now here is 

17 the real test because I am going to hit the 

18 save button.

19 MR. KATZ: It worked.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Closed. Great.

21 MR. STIVER: Let me see if I see 

22 the same thing you do. And low and behold, it 
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1 comes up closed.

2 CHAIR MUNN: And mine still says 

3 in abeyance. I'm assuming that digital 

4 information is working its way through the 

5 system and will eventually appear on my 

6 screen.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: You may have to 

8 refresh your screen. Go off the screen and 

9 then come back on or hit the refresh button.

10 CHAIR MUNN: I just did. Voila! 

11 Closed. And the next item would be 04, which 

12 is showing as in progress.

13 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, this is Bob 

14 Anigstein. What I would suggest, if it is 

15 appropriate, that 04 be transferred to 06 

16 because they are one and the same and there 

17 seems to be -- it is not our fault. It is the 

18 fault of the SC&A review procedure that the 

19 same issue was mentioned under two different 

20 headings but it is the same issue. And 

21 therefore, it would make sense to transfer it 

22 to Finding 6, if such a thing is possible. I 
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1 know you can transfer issues to different 

2 procedures. I don't know if you can transfer 

3 issues within a given procedure.

4 CHAIR MUNN: Ours currently says 

5 that it was addressed in 05.

6 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No. No, 05 is 

7 totally separate. The insert that I made, 

8 which should be presumably transferred to the 

9 database on July 14th was -- today is July 

10 14th. Oh, I think I have live Word problem in 

11 that I have a volatile date in here, which is 

12 whatever the date was then is continued.

13 Finding 04 and Finding 06 refer to 

14 the same technical issue. That is the 

15 response to Finding 04. And Finding 06 I 

16 believe NIOSH is working on. So it should be 

17 in abeyance or in progress.

18 MR. KATZ: So let's just close 

19 issue 04 and put notate same as issue 06.

20 DR. ANIGSTEIN: No, not 05. We 

21 are talking about issue 04 now.

22 MR. KATZ: Right. That's what I 
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1 said.

2 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry. I 

3 thought I heard you say issue 05.

4 MR. KATZ: I just said I suggest 

5 we just close issue 04 and notate it is the 

6 same as issue 06. And then issue 06, once 

7 that gets resolved, that takes care of it.

8 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Sounds good.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Logical.

10 MR. STIVER: Okay, right now the 

11 status of 06 is kind of an inverse. It says 

12 addressed in finding. That probably means 

13 finding 04. So that kind of refers to --

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. KATZ: That works.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: I think you are 

17 right, John.

18 DR. ULSH: Do you want to try 

19 changing the status here and get ambitious?

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Well which one do 

21 you want to change the status of? This 

22 appears to be essentially a restatement of 
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1 this. I am reading the history of issue six. 

2 It says NIOSH says this appears to be 

3 essentially a restatement of Finding 04. So 

4 see response to Finding 04. And then on July 

5 26, 2010 meeting the Subcommittee instructed 

6 SC&A to review the initial response and change 

7 the progress to in progress.

8 MR. STIVER: So which one do you 

9 want to go with?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Basically I think 

11 what we were going with, I think our intent 

12 was to go with issue -- Let me see. If we go 

13 back to 04 -

14 CHAIR MUNN: I think we were done 

15 with 04.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

17 MR. KATZ: So we'll close six.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Well essentially it 

19 is closed. It says addressed in findings.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Addressed in 

21 findings.

22 MR. KATZ: Okay. So we actually 
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1 closed it. We don't have to close it.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: The idea behind 

3 that addressed in findings status was that the 

4 closure for this, if somebody is looking for 

5 the closure for this finding, they would know 

6 where to look. I mean, they should be able to 

7 find it. I'm not sure what but I guess you 

8 can pick it out of the text. You should be 

9 able to go to 04 and see the closure. Whereas 

10 if you marked it closed here, you would never 

11 know, although you can cover that in the 

12 comment as well. You can say the closure 

13 action for number four will close this one as 

14 well.

15 For closure action on this item, 

16 see closure of item number 04. And then you 

17 can close this. And that way, it is gone.

18 It is nice to show closed because 

19 that means you don't have to go back and look 

20 at it. It is up to the Subcommittee. I am 

21 just saying something.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Well it seems to me 
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1 that if we close item 04 and say in a part of 

2 our closure, this action also closes number 

3 06, then we can leave number 06 as it is. It 

4 says addressed in issue 04.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: That's okay with 

6 me. So at the time, in the future when we 

7 close 04. I don't care. Whatever. 

8 And then theoretically when you 

9 doing an account of statuses, if you see a 

10 count of you have got six that are addressed 

11 in some other finding, you count them as 

12 closed because they really don't matter.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Yes. For all intents 

14 and purposes, for our meetings here, number 06 

15 is already closed because we said it is 

16 addressed in another finding.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. 

18 CHAIR MUNN: So that is closed to 

19 us.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

21 CHAIR MUNN: So Bob's current 

22 comments need to go under item 04.
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1 MR. KATZ: Yes, it is closed.

2 DR. ANIGSTEIN: But 06 is left 

3 open.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: We are going to 

5 keep one of them open.

6 MR. KATZ: Right, 04 is going to 

7 stay open. We are closing 06.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: And we will answer 

9 both in one place. 

10 MR. KATZ: Right because they are 

11 the same thing.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: All the points 

13 made in both will be answered in one.

14 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Actually based on 

15 what we said earlier, if I can, I think it was 

16 in OTIB-0010, if I can restate a better 

17 understanding of SC&A or at least for myself, 

18 the finding 04 was that it does not provide 

19 adequate guidance. Actually it does provide 

20 adequate guidance, we just disagree with the 

21 guidance. In other words, the technical issue 

22 remains but semantically perhaps 04 should not 
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1 be an issue because there is sufficient 

2 guidance given. And there is sufficient 

3 guidance given. We just don't agree with it.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Well NIOSH, 

5 basically if you go back and look at the 

6 history of these two issues, SC&A made two 

7 comments, issues 04 and 06.

8 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I know.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: NIOSH came back and 

10 they responded to issue 04. Then they came 

11 back and then when they got down, they worked 

12 their way down to issue 06, they said, this 

13 appears to be essentially a restatement of 

14 Finding 04, see response to Finding 04.

15 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: So I mean, that is 

17 kind of the way it evolved and that is why it 

18 six says addressed in Finding 04. It has 

19 nothing to do with the way SC&A initially made 

20 those findings.

21 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay. If I had to 

22 do it all over again, there would not have 
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1 been an issue 04. It would have just been 06. 

2 But the way it is now, so be it.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: So are we going to 

4 do anything with them or are we going to leave 

5 them the way they are?

6 CHAIR MUNN: Let us indicate that 

7 what Bob has just told us at this meeting and 

8 indicate that we are closing item 6 and 

9 continuing to follow it under 04.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Wanda?

11 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: I have a question 

13 on item 04 though. I am reading back through 

14 the initial response that NIOSH made. It 

15 looks to me as if we talked about the fact 

16 that this was an overarching issue. Now, was 

17 that the right one?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Which one are we 

19 on now, 06?

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well this would be 

21 04, which is the same as 06. And then if it 

22 is overarching, does it get transferred.
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1 Is only part of this overarching 

2 or all of it?

3 CHAIR MUNN: Well this particular 

4 finding, I think.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Our interpretation 

6 of it, if I recall -- I'm speaking from memory 

7 and I'm not sure my memory is correct. I'm 

8 not even sure my interpretation was correct.

9 The largest portion of the 

10 difference cited between X-10 analysis and 

11 ours was based on angular dependence of the

12 badge and angular dependence factors that they 

13 had included in their analysis which we had 

14 left out of ours. Ours was strictly geometric 

15 and did not address angular dependence of the 

16 badge.

17 If that is correct, I'm not sure 

18 it is correct, then I think the whole thing to 

19 be overarching issue of angular dependence of 

20 the badge. Because that has come up a number 

21 of times and how are we at the program going 

22 to deal with angular dependence of a dosimetry 
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1 badge?

2 Now Bob, if there is more to it, 

3 then we will keep it open and we will treat 

4 one part separately and the other part as an 

5 overarching issue, the angular dependence 

6 overarching issue.

7 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Can I respond to 

8 this now?

9 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, please Bob, do.

10 DR. ANIGSTEIN: We found a ratio 

11 of 7.6 between the lower torso and dosimeter 

12 inn contrast to a factor of 2.125 reported by 

13 NIOSH. That 7.6 does not use angular 

14 dependence. The 7.6 was the HP(10,0). The 

15 zero -- ten refers to the ten millimeter deep 

16 dose. The zero refers to the angle of 

17 incidence, which is normal here.

18 There is no angular. In both 

19 cases we assume normal incidence.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

21 DR. ANIGSTEIN: And so the 7.6 is 

22 not based on angular. If you throw an angular 
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1 dependence, which is not mentioned here but it 

2 is mentioned elsewhere, the ratio is 10 point 

3 something.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So it would 

5 appear then that this should, that that part 

6 of our response should not be there. There 

7 does not look to be an angular dependence.

8 DR. ANIGSTEIN: The reason, if I 

9 can clarify, the reason for the difference is 

10 that we calculated the dose to a point on the 

11 body just opposite this uranium ingot as that 

12 is the most sensitive organ, regardless of 

13 which organ it is because we get different 

14 organs depending on where this thing was 

15 found. And then we calculated the dose at the 

16 position of the dosimeter.

17 What the NIOSH did using Attila 

18 was they got an average of the organ. They 

19 got a whole bunch of organ doses or locations 

20 in the chest, the upper torso, and then used 

21 MCNP sampling using the Crystal Ball program 

22 to get a distribution. But the point is, our 
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1 point is the claimant does not have a 

2 distribution of cancer to the different 

3 organs. He has a cancer to a particular 

4 organ. And, therefore, it is inappropriate to 

5 use a distribution of organs. You should take 

6 the most limiting organ or, if they wish to 

7 have a different correction factor for each 

8 organ, then there would have to be a whole 

9 table that is, you know, if it is a cancer of 

10 the large intestines, this is the correction 

11 factor you use. If it is a cancer of the 

12 liver, this is the correction factor you use.

13 But barring that, it should be the 

14 most claimant favorable. Which means the 

15 organ that gets the most dose from the uranium 

16 ingot and the ratio of that to the dosimeter 

17 on the lapel. We didn't even put it on the 

18 lapel. We put it in the center of the chest. 

19 When you put it in the lapel, it is off to 

20 one side. So again, there is still a slightly 

21 increased distance, which is not very big.

22 That is our point in a nutshell. 
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1 We agree, based on other calculations that we 

2 have done in the past, we agree that MCNP and 

3 Attila probably yield very similar results. 

4 But it was the way the Attila results were 

5 utilized that is our objection.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, Paul?

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: It doesn't appear 

8 to me that that showed up in the list of 

9 exchanges here.

10 CHAIR MUNN: No, I'm not getting 

11 that from this at all.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: I was just going to 

13 make that point. I think, Bob, what we do if 

14 we look at the database, we have the NIOSH 

15 initial response. And then the next thing we 

16 have in here is instructions from the 

17 Subcommittee for SC&A to review the NIOSH 

18 initial response. And then we just have the 

19 small Word that you made the other day saying 

20 that 04 and 06 are together.

21 I think this is an SC&A action 

22 item to respond to the NIOSH initial response 
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1 with words similar to what you just said.

2 DR. ULSH: It might just be --

3 since the database was down.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: It might have been. 

5 Yes, you might already have those words 

6 someplace and we just couldn't get them into 

7 the database. I think we might have had this 

8 same discussion back in January. 

9 CHAIR MUNN: It certainly sounds 

10 familiar to me.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: A very similar 

12 discussion back in January. But that would be 

13 -- I mean, it looks like, looking at the 

14 history here is the ball is in SC&A's court.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, there is 

16 something missing here. We did, I think we 

17 did discuss it and maybe you looked at Bob's 

18 paper but it doesn't show up here.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: Right, it doesn't 

20 show up.

21 MR. STIVER: From what it reads, 

22 it never made it into the database.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: The first thing I 

2 have to do, Bob when I get back to my office 

3 tomorrow is look to see whether or not, or you 

4 can also look to see whether or not you have 

5 written a response to the NIOSH initial 

6 response. And if so, then I have to enter 

7 that into the database.

8 DR. ANIGSTEIN: When would that 

9 have been?

10 DR. ULSH: I'm almost certain we 

11 discussed it at the last meeting of this 

12 Subcommittee, whenever that was. Was that 

13 March?

14 CHAIR MUNN: March is the last 

15 meeting of this Subcommittee. The one prior 

16 to that, the one that I expected the field 

17 discussion to have taken place would have been 

18 the January meeting. Either January or March. 

19 Both of them are posted.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: The instruction 

21 from the Subcommittee to SC&A to review the 

22 NIOSH initial response came to us in August of 
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1 2010.

2 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: So I mean, it may 

4 have been, if you look in the August 13, 2010 

5 minutes of meeting, that might have it. We 

6 probably discussed something there.

7 CHAIR MUNN: All right. So the 

8 action right now --

9 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I have a reply 

10 from January where I basically what I just 

11 said.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, well we need 

13 to get that into the database.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I guess it would 

15 help matters if you would just send that to 

16 Steve. Would that be alright if he just 

17 forwarded it to you?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: If you would, just 

20 send that to Steve.

21 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Well actually, it 

22 is in the most current response also, the 
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1 reply.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

3 CHAIR MUNN: As long as Steve has 

4 that, then he can get it inserted into our 

5 current information status and we will be able 

6 to then ask NIOSH if there is some initial 

7 response to that.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: We may be able to 

9 -- When I put it into the database, I can send 

10 an email to Brant and tell him that it is in 

11 the database and whether NIOSH wants to -- You 

12 know, so that we don't have to take one step 

13 every meeting. Maybe we can take two steps 

14 before the next meeting.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Thank you if you do 

16 that. I appreciate that. We will expect that 

17 to happen so that with any luck at all, the 

18 next action item will actually be NIOSH, 

19 hopefully.

20 MR. STIVER: Yes, I have Bob 

21 Anigstein's reply right here. It should have 

22 gone in there. It is even listed as a finding 
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1 like it was extracted from the database, which 

2 is kind of strange. We will go ahead and get 

3 that.

4 CHAIR MUNN: All right. Then you 

5 can send that directly to Steve and he will 

6 have it. And we will go on from there.

7 That brings us to response number 

8 05, which is shown as Brant's action item.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we really 

10 haven't prepared a response on this. I would 

11 like to talk about this one just a little bit.

12 CHAIR MUNN: All right.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: This one has to do 

14 with the first finding was it wasn't really 

15 clear, you know dimensions of the person or 

16 the glove box. Things like that weren't 

17 really clear.

18 So we revised the TIB and sort of 

19 said additional things. We said the human 

20 figure is six feet tall. That would be 

21 average and so the correction factor would 

22 actually be, it was essentially -- if the 
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1 person were shorter than six feet all, the 

2 geometric adjustment would be smaller. And we 

3 figured that since we were pretty tall, that 

4 is sufficiently conservative.

5 And then SC&A's response to that 

6 is not maybe sufficiently conservative. They 

7 give some statistics about U.S. males between 

8 18 and 74 gives the 90th percentile heights in 

9 centimeters. So the 90th percentile is about 

10 61.6 inches and then since heights are 

11 normally distributed roughly, they estimate 

12 that the height of a six foot person would 

13 represent about the 80th percentile.

14 So from our standpoint, we are 

15 making a general adjustment of somebody 

16 working in the glove box. And we are being, 

17 we feel like we are being sufficiently 

18 conservative by saying, you know, 80 percent 

19 of the people are this tall or smaller, that 

20 is sufficient and there are other 

21 conservatisms built into the dose 

22 reconstruction approaches that we don't have 
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1 to use the 95th percentile of the population 

2 at every state.

3 So we feel like we are okay where 

4 we are. So, that is kind of my take on that 

5 whole issue. You are talking about an 

6 adjustment of some, I guess, two or three 

7 inches. You would have to get above 90th 

8 percent if you were going to go to 95th 

9 percentile. So, it would be somewhere around, 

10 you would have to go from somewhere around six 

11 foot to six foot-two, maybe a little bit over 

12 six foot-two, apparently.

13 And I just don't see how it gains 

14 you that much in the context of what we are 

15 trying to accomplish here.

16 MEMBER ZIEMER: How much does that 

17 change the actual calculated dose? You are 

18 talking about the difference from the chests.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Essentially from 

20 their navel --

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: -- to their chest. 
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1 For someone who is six feet tall versus maybe 

2 six-three, six-two or six-three.

3 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Excuse me. It 

4 would be the difference from the navel to the 

5 dosimeter on the lapel.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: The lapel, yes. 

7 So the navel to the lapel.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: Let me just make a 

9 comment. If you look at heights of people, 

10 they don't necessarily relate to the torso.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Well that is true.

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: A lot of it is in 

13 legs. And it turns out and you can see this 

14 in seating, that the difference in height 

15 amongst people who are seated is very much 

16 less than the difference of their actual 

17 heights.

18 DR. ANIGSTEIN: But aren't the 

19 glove box workers standing rather than 

20 sitting?

21 DR. ULSH: Yes, but the difference 

22 we are talking about --
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1 MR. STIVER: Yes, we are talking 

2 about the torso length.

3 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Yes, I know. But 

4 the torso, it is the elevation of the lapel 

5 dosimeter above the level of the glove box 

6 working area.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: We're not really 

8 talking about navel to lapel. We are talking 

9 about table top to lapel.

10 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Right. And the 

11 table top, they are standing. So the table 

12 may sit lower on the body.

13 MR. MARSCHKE: If you had longer 

14 legs, the table top would be further away. 

15 The organs that we are calculating dose to 

16 would be higher as well.

17 DR. ANIGSTEIN: But there could 

18 still be sensitive organs right opposite the 

19 table.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: My position is 

21 still that you are jousting. You are using 

22 that hammer to hit and smash flies here. I 
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1 mean, what do you really expect out of this? 

2 How fine of a number do you want on this 

3 adjustment?

4 DR. ANIGSTEIN: I agree. I don't 

5 maintain it is a major issue. I just look 

6 very carefully at our charger, which is to see 

7 that the findings, the documents that you 

8 review are scientifically accurate.

9 And you know, the six foot was 

10 chosen arbitrarily. There was no statistic, 

11 you know. I found the statistics on the 

12 distribution. NIOSH did not supply the 

13 statistics. So it is not a show stopper but 

14 still it seems it should be -- I would still 

15 say the comments should be taken into account.

16 If it there is text to be added to 

17 the TIB to explain why this was, and if the 

18 Board or the Subcommittee agrees that that is 

19 adequate, that that is a possibility.

20 Right now, the six foot is just 

21 thrown in as a given, with no explanation. 

22 And the revised TIB still did not include any 
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1 discussion of it.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: Has anyone done a 

3 calculation to show how much difference you 

4 would get for actual organ doses?

5 DR. ULSH: No, we haven't. And if 

6 the Subcommittee decides that they want a 

7 NIOSH response, that is probably what it will 

8 contain.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. I am just 

10 trying to get a feel whether we are talking 

11 about a couple percent which would -- but then 

12 what we are trying to do here is sort of 

13 trivial.

14 I mean, if we are talking about 

15 factors of two or three in dose, that is one 

16 thing. If we are talking about a few percent 

17 change in the dose because we have a little 

18 percent change in height, which is not great, 

19 which I don't have a feel for that. I just 

20 wondered if anyone had --

21 MR. STIVER: Actually, with the 

22 atomic veterans are going to have to do this 
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1 very same exercise, looking at different 

2 heights, different proportions, 

3 proportionality. And actually, the Air Force 

4 has published some studies on that they used 

5 for developing cockpit sizes and placement of 

6 various instruments.

7 And we used it to calculate beta 

8 dose to organs for people at various heights, 

9 which you know is going to drop off 

10 considerably, more so than gamma ratios. And 

11 as you recall, the beta-gamma ratios, gamma 

12 doses that we modeled didn't change much at 

13 all over a few centimeters. It is very 

14 trivial.

15 Now I don't know how this would 

16 translate to this particular problem here.

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well I think that 

18 glove box you are talking about pretty much 

19 penetrating stuff as opposed to beta dose. I 

20 mean, the beta dose at your glove box should 

21 be zip.

22 My intuitive feeling is it is 
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1 small but I just wondered if anybody had 

2 actually quantified it.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, this isn't 

4 glove box? This is the uranium ingot?

5 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Okay, well I just 

6 --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well it still 

8 going to be lathe height. I mean, it is still 

9 going to be the same issue. The height of the 

10 lathe.

11 MR. STIVER: Basically the change 

12 in dose rate is height from the --

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Bob, do you have 

14 any idea how much?

15 DR. ANIGSTEIN: If I could break 

16 in, I just did a quick calculation. And I 

17 agree, the change, if you just, you know let's 

18 use the inverse square law and assume that the 

19 lapel moves proportional to the height, which 

20 is not quite accurate. I agree. We are 

21 talking about changes of probably less than 

22 ten percent.
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1 I concede that it is not a --

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think in terms 

3 of what we are -- I mean, these are broad 

4 estimates in the absence of detailed data and 

5 we are talking about groups of people for whom 

6 we don't know the height. And the question 

7 does it make a difference if we use six foot8 two, rather than six foot?

9 MR. STIVER: You are trying to 

10 kind of scale it to the height of the 

11 claimant. I think that we have a tendency to 

12 introduce more detail and precision than is 

13 really warranted by the source.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well I think 80 

15 percent you could argue that that is pretty 

16 conservative. I don't think legally you are 

17 required to like the 95th or 99th like you 

18 would in the final.

19 CHAIR MUNN: I wouldn't think so.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: The only time 

21 anything is specified is the actual --

22 CHAIR MUNN: It is the opinion of 
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1 the Chair that the information that has been 

2 provided is adequate and that there is no 

3 reason to pursue this particular technical 

4 issue further. The process that has been 

5 explained by NIOSH is acceptable to me. And I 

6 would like to see us close this.

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is acceptable 

8 to me. Can we close it with two people?

9 CHAIR MUNN: Do we have any major 

10 -- Do I hear any comments to the contrary?

11 If not, please indicate, Steve, 

12 that the committee accepts the NIOSH position 

13 with respect to the adequacy of their approach 

14 and we have closed the item.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Fine. I have one 

17 last question before we leave this particular 

18 set of issues and that is with respect to the 

19 nomenclature of the title, since I personally 

20 had so much trouble finding this where it is 

21 supposed to be and I now know that there are 

22 three different items on our list of 
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1 procedures in the system with a TIB-13 

2 somewhere in the title. Shall we make an 

3 attempt to remove one of these zeros so that 

4 we won't continue to do that or not?

5 MR. MARSCHKE: That is an action 

6 item that has been, at least to get rid of 

7 OCAS-TIB. So there is only one OCAS-TIB-13 in 

8 the system. Now I don't know about the DCAS9 TIB; DCAS-TIB and OCAS-TIB how they all 

10 interface with each other.

11 DR. ULSH: NIOSH is taking this as 

12 an action item to go through the information 

13 that is currently in the database and remove 

14 any duplicate entries, making sure that we 

15 don't lose anything when we do that. We will 

16 take care of that.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Also there seems to 

18 be there was OCAS-TIB-10 was not in the 

19 database, either as OCAS-TIB-010 or as OCAS20 TIB-0010 that I could find.

21 DR. ANIGSTEIN: Steve, if I can 

22 submit a point of information. These 
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1 according to the NIOSH or the DCAS website, 

2 you have for each number there is a TIB, which 

3 is a DCAS or originally OCAS and there is an 

4 OTIB -- I'm sorry. Forget what I just said. 

5 I was thinking of ORAU. Cancel my comment.

6 DR. ULSH: So that's just a 

7 cleanup the data in the database issue. That 

8 is our responsibility to do that.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Okay. We will ask 

10 about that come next meeting.

11 DR. ULSH: I have no doubt you 

12 will. We will get right on it.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Excellent.

14 The next items to be addressed is 

15 OTIB-0052, Rev. 1 Report. It is an SC&A item. 

16 And where should we be looking?

17 MR. MARSCHKE: Nancy Johnson sent 

18 an email to everybody a couple of days ago on 

19 the 11th. Monday, 7/11 Nancy Johnson sent an 

20 email to I guess it was to the Board 

21 transmitting a report that SC&A had put 

22 together reviewing Revision 1 to OTIB-0052. 
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1 And OTIB-0052 is the construction worker dose 

2 OTIB.

3 MR. STIVER: It's on the 11th?

4 DR. ULSH: I don't see that you 

5 got it, John.

6 MR. STIVER: I got it.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: I sent it to John. 

8 I know John got it.

9 MR. STIVER: Okay, I got it.

10 MR. KATZ: Who is presenting this 

11 one?

12 MR. MARSCHKE: I am.

13 MR. STIVER: Okay, I have got my 

14 copy pulled up now.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: I don't know how 

16 much detail everybody wants to get into on 

17 this. I prefer to speak. I wrote the report. 

18 I did the initial review of OTIB-0052. So I 

19 am familiar with this. I don't know if NIOSH, 

20 how much they want us to get into it. I don't 

21 know if they have looked into our report here 

22 from Monday.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Has NIOSH had an 

2 opportunity to even look at it?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well not in any 

4 detail. It came in Monday.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: It came in on 

6 Monday probably with a whole bunch of other 

7 emails that were at the various --

8 CHAIR MUNN: Have you read enough 

9 --

10 MR. KATZ: Why don't we have Steve 

11 give a summary of it?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: There is a summary 

13 table of what they found.

14 MR. KATZ: And then if that raises 

15 any questions that need clarification and that 

16 will be helpful for DCAS to respond.

17 MR. STIVER: Sort of just the 

18 important issues.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Please if you would, 

20 Steve, just give us a --

21 MR. MARSCHKE: What I show on the 

22 --
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: What's the name of 

2 the document?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: It's construction.

4 CHAIR MUNN: It's one of those 

5 data pages that shows the whole activity up to 

6 this point.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: OTIB-0052 Rev. 1, 

8 Parameters to Consider When Processing Claims 

9 for Construction Trade Workers.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: Nancy distributed 

11 it on Monday?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, on Monday. 

13 It is a --

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: We got two on 

15 Monday. One is for Linde and one is for 

16 Hanford.

17 MR. STIVER: I have it here. I 

18 can send it to you.

19 DR. ULSH: Yes, you're on the 

20 list. It is from Nancy Johnson.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes.

22 CHAIR MUNN: It's way back. 
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: She may have just 

2 sent it to my -- although, she usually sends 

3 it to --

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Paul Ziemer, it's 

5 on your CDC. It should be on your CDC email.

6 MEMBER ZIEMER: That's where I'm 

7 looking right now. Let's see if I moved it 

8 into this.

9 MR. MARSCHKE: The name of the 

10 document or subject is Transmittal of Draft 

11 Document SCATR2011-0004.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Entry items.

13 MR. STIVER: Okay, Paul, I'm 

14 sending it to your address.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes. Actually, I 

16 think I moved it into the Procedures Review 

17 file already is probably what I did.

18 MR. STIVER: You'll have an extra 

19 copy here in about a minute.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: No, I'm not sure 

21 it is in there. Oh, here it is. I got it. 

22 Here it is. I got it anyway. Thanks.
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1 Sorry for the delay. I've got it.

2 CHAIR MUNN: No. There's no 

3 problem.

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay?

5 CHAIR MUNN: Go ahead, Steve.

6 MR. MARSCHKE: Well in the 

7 Executive Summary, it is page five of the PDF 

8 file, page five of the report as well. There 

9 is a table, an unnumbered table that shows the 

10 findings associated with OTIB-0052, there were 

11 16 of them, and what their status was prior to 

12 Revision 1 and what their status is after 

13 Revision 1.

14 I guess I should also mention that 

15 Revision 1 was issued by NIOSH on February 

16 17th of this year. SC&A became aware of it 

17 and we took it upon ourselves to examine it, 

18 review it to see whether or not it addressed 

19 some of the outstanding issues that were 

20 remaining with OTIB-0052.

21 So you can go down here and you 

22 can see a number of the issues that were in 
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1 progress. We are recommending that they be 

2 closed as a result of Revision 1. A few of 

3 them, a couple of them were transferred to 

4 OTIB-0020. This has mostly to do with the 

5 fact that there could be some construction 

6 workers working in some facilities at some 

7 times that we see doses higher than your 

8 average individual.

9 And we want -- OTIB-0020 already 

10 has a caution, a general caution for workers 

11 that the standard procedures may not be 

12 applicable under certain conditions. We 

13 wanted to change that standard recommendation 

14 and we had discussed this previously the last 

15 time we talked about the OTIB-0052. And if 

16 you look in here, there was a recommended 

17 wording changes to OTIB-0020 that would 

18 address that.

19 Since OTIB-0020 -- The changes 

20 have not been made to OTIB-0020. So those 

21 three OTIB-0052 issues that were transferred 

22 to OTIB-0020 remain open and still active, I 
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1 guess.

2 There were a couple of issues 12, 

3 13, and 14 really are probably the three that 

4 we want to focus on because those are the ones 

5 that we are recommending be in progress at 

6 this point. So if we can skip back to the 

7 discussion of those, basically it begins on 

8 page 16.

9 CHAIR MUNN: 52-13?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: 52-12. Fifteen. 

11 I'm sorry. Page 15.

12 It had to do with the initial 

13 finding from SC&A was that the REX database at 

14 Hanford was not used. Needs to evaluate 

15 results based upon the REX database.

16 The initial response that we 

17 received from NIOSH and this was a long time 

18 ago, maybe in 2008, was as you see there, it 

19 says basically the data used in the Hanford 

20 analysis was extracted by the site expert from 

21 the REX database and provided in the OTIB --

22 and provided to the OTIB-0052 team as 
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1 spreadsheet files. The identity of the source 

2 data was not communicated in the text of OTIB3 0052. Any subsequent revision will correct 

4 this oversight.

5 Unfortunately, the change to the 

6 OTIB did not include the fact that REX was 

7 used. They went back to -- if you look on the 

8 appendix on page 22, that shows the revision 

9 that was made to Section 6.1 in response to 

10 Finding 52-12. You can see basically that 

11 they state somewhere towards the end of that 

12 finding, the very last line, it says that the 

13 use of data from the REX database was 

14 considered and rejected. The site expert 

15 cautioned that prior to 1965 the database 

16 contains no information that would 

17 differentiate construction trade workers from 

18 General Electric employees. So that kind of 

19 contradicts what the initial response said. 

20 And so we really would like to see -- we 

21 prefer the initial response where they used 

22 REX and particularly after 1965. I mean, this 
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1 could be a reason for not using REX prior to 

2 1965 but why didn't they use REX after 1965?

3 So basically previously we had 

4 said when we were under the impression that 

5 NIOSH was going to indicate that they did use 

6 REX or they had consulted REX and the document 

7 was in error, then we agreed with them and we 

8 had classified the issue as being in abeyance.

9 Now when they are basically 

10 backing off from that statement about the use 

11 of REX, we are going to basically recommend 

12 that the status be changed from in abeyance 

13 back to in progress.

14 So that is it.

15 CHAIR MUNN: In light of the fact 

16 that NIOSH hasn't had an opportunity to see 

17 your comments and respond to them, it would 

18 seem reasonable to return it to in progress 

19 until that item and any others that you have 

20 can be addressed. We need to have a NIOSH 

21 response to your concerns.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Do you want to make 
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1 changes to the database status now as we are 

2 going along, Wanda?

3 CHAIR MUNN: I think that would be 

4 wise. Yes, we should. I'm not sure how much 

5 detail about your concerns needs to be 

6 included but --

7 MEMBER ZIEMER: This is still, 

8 this is Rev. 1 that we are making the change 

9 on. Right?

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that is correct.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: So you are going 

12 to indicate that your change of status is 

13 based on what you have seen in Rev. 2, though.

14 MR. STIVER: It says Rev. 0 here. 

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Well the original 

16 findings were made on Rev. 0. 

17 MEMBER ZIEMER: And that is what 

18 -- This is a Rev. 0 finding.

19 MR. MARSCHKE: This is a Rev. 0 

20 finding and we were saying that based on the 

21 review of Revision 1.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. Yes, that's 
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1 good. That is what I wanted to clarify. 

2 Okay, it is Rev. 1.

3 CHAIR MUNN: If the only errors we 

4 get are spelling errors, we are happy campers.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay. Maybe if we 

6 change course here a little bit. We are 

7 changing statuses. Then maybe we want to go 

8 and look at some of these ones that we are 

9 recommending be closed.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I would hope 

11 that that would be something that we could 

12 agree could be done away from the table. 

13 Those that you have suggested be closed based 

14 on this Rev. 1, if NIOSH agrees that they 

15 should be closed, then we can certainly close 

16 out those six.

17 MR. MARSCHKE: We usually need the 

18 Subcommittee's direction before we can close 

19 them out.

20 CHAIR MUNN: That is why I am 

21 saying now if NIOSH, even given their lack of 

22 time to review this, if they agree with your 
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1 agreement of closed status, I can see no 

2 reason why those shouldn't be closed now.

3 Yes, Paul?

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Do we know that in 

5 all cases the closure is based on these are 

6 items that the Subcommittee has previously 

7 asked to be done and they have been done or 

8 have been agreed to by NIOSH?

9 CHAIR MUNN: We can run through 

10 them quickly. They should be right here on 

11 our database.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Item 5, issue 5 --

13 MR. STIVER: Five was the issue of 

14 plutonium and uranium.

15 CHAIR MUNN: That is still in 

16 progress.

17 MR. STIVER: We were concerned 

18 about possibly other nuclides that could have 

19 been involved.

20 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Issue 5 was 

21 plutonium. The issue was plutonium and/or 

22 uranium are used to compare internal 
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1 construction workers and all monitored worker 

2 doses. What about other radionuclides?

3 And what NIOSH has done -- and we 

4 have talked about this in the past. If you 

5 have been looking at documents, there have 

6 been numerous Subcommittee meetings on OTIB7 0052, including teleconferences. And again, 

8 the change that NIOSH made was to add a 

9 paragraph to the document, limitations and 

10 exceptions.

11 And in that they said in response 

12 to five, specifically they say, "Analysis and 

13 recommendations in this document are based 

14 upon data that were readily available, and 

15 abundant enough to enable statistically 

16 significant comparisons. Consequently, there 

17 may be unusual cases in which the 

18 recommendations of this document do not apply. 

19 Intakes of less common radionuclides, those 

20 other than uranium or plutonium, are not 

21 assessed. Refer to the site Technical Basis 

22 Document for information regarding less common 
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1 radionuclides."

2 So with that paragraph inserted 

3 into OTIB-0052, we believe that it addressed 

4 our concern and we are ready to sign off on 

5 it.

6 CHAIR MUNN: Is there any 

7 objection to doing so?

8 (Pause.)

9 CHAIR MUNN: Taken without 

10 exception that we may now close this item.

11 MR. KATZ: They haven't included a 

12 spell checking function on this yet?

13 MR. MARSCHKE: Maybe they have. I 

14 haven't figured it out yet.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Very good.

16 MR. MARSCHKE: The next one we are 

17 recommending is 9.

18 CHAIR MUNN: Did the status get 

19 changed to closed?

20 MR. MARSCHKE: It was five?

21 CHAIR MUNN: Five, correct.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: Closed.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Closed. Very good.

2 MR. KATZ: This also processes 

3 much more quickly than --

4 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes.

5 MR. STIVER: This thing should be 

6 a little bit more streamlined.

7 MR. MARSCHKE: There's one thing I 

8 should, I guess, while we are talking about 

9 issue 5 and NIOSH will see this when they read 

10 it, because the Revision 1 is now basically 

11 limiting the internal exposures to uranium and 

12 plutonium only, we are hoping to see a PER 

13 that would go back and look to see if there 

14 have been cases where OTIB-0052 had been used 

15 to calculate internal doses for radionuclides 

16 other than uranium and plutonium.

17 And one of the things that I know 

18 comes into my mind, based upon some of the 

19 experience I have had, is that the Evaluation 

20 Report to Savannah River SEC referred to OTIB21 0052 methodology and their critical nuclide 

22 was, of course, tritium. So there may be some 
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1 kind of -- And I don't know if that would 

2 actually fit under a PER or some kind of a PER 

3 type of thing has to go back and look to see 

4 where OTIB-0052 or if OTIB-0052 internal dose 

5 methodology has been used for other 

6 radionuclides in other documents in other dose 

7 reconstructions.

8 DR. ULSH: I kind of hate to say 

9 this, but shouldn't item 5 be closed?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: Item 5, as far as 

11 the comments itself, I think is closed. I 

12 mean, I think now basically what you have done 

13 in SC&A's mind and in my mind is you have 

14 limited OTIB-0052 to only, the internal 

15 portion of it, to only uranium and plutonium.

16 DR. ULSH: Well right. But how 

17 are we going to track this?

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Just the same way 

19 you make any -- I mean, PERs is the way you --

20 It is my understanding that when 

21 you change a procedure, you use the PER 

22 process to --
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1 DR. ULSH: I am accepting on the 

2 face of it your argument that a PER, we at 

3 least need to look and see if a PER is 

4 necessary. How is that actually going to be 

5 tracked then, if we close item number 5? We 

6 don't need to?

7 MR. KATZ: I mean, that is part of 

8 your internal procedures to deal with PERs 

9 when you need them.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: The revision to 

11 OTIB-0052 in and of itself should prompt a 

12 look back to see if we look at any cases 

13 because of it, regardless of whether it was 

14 ever viewed in this group.

15 DR. ULSH: Okay.

16 MR. KATZ: One thought. Just a 

17 thought about this database. Another 

18 functionality issue that just popped in my 

19 head as we are going through this. It might 

20 be nice if you could also generate from the 

21 database action items like this. I think that 

22 would be really handy if you could prevent 
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1 DCAS action items or SC&A action items. If 

2 you could just have this thing generate those 

3 lists, send a search for them or whatever, it 

4 will be very handy. Don't you think?

5 DR. ULSH: Yes, I do. But I am 

6 trying to think of the most efficient way to 

7 do that. I am wondering if -- yes. I guess I 

8 mean if we got the function where we could 

9 sort out all of the in progress items, that 

10 gets you halfway there. But then you would 

11 have to go into thread to look for the action.

12 MR. KATZ: Then you have to go in 

13 and go through all those.

14 It would be nice to have a roster 

15 for the current DCAS action items here, the 

16 current SC&A action items.

17 DR. ULSH: I agree with you that 

18 would be nice. I can't commit to it without 

19 talking to Yemi.

20 MR. KATZ: No, I'm not saying. I 

21 just think it is something worth looking into 

22 because it would help all of us from meeting 
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1 to meeting. 

2 CHAIR MUNN: It will be simpler to 

3 do once the function is in that will allow us 

4 to sort by status. Then we can status 

5 specific items and at least it will reduce the 

6 bulk of material you have to look at.

7 MR. STIVER: You can filter it 

8 down just to those few issues that are still 

9 open. And then we could have a flag of some 

10 sort that would indicate action items being 

11 pursued.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Right.

13 MR. KATZ: Well anyway, it is just 

14 a thought.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: It is really built 

16 into this sort of a matrix that is there. It 

17 is what we used to do. You had your chart, --

18 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- the number of 

20 issues, number of each one that is closed. 

21 And that is in the system.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Once we have the 
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1 status filter.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: How about what 

3 each of those colored dots. Red dot, orange 

4 dot -- color coded.

5 MR. MARSCHKE: We had something or 

6 we tried to use something similar to that way 

7 back when we had the Access database. It 

8 never really became functional. I think it 

9 was just too --

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: We had to do it 

11 mechanically.

12 MR. MARSCHKE: Yes. Wanda has 

13 been doing an excellent job of keeping track 

14 of, of keeping everybody honest here with her 

15 carry-over items list and so on and so forth.

16 CHAIR MUNN: We have had things 

17 drop.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes. Balls fall in the 

19 cracks though quite a bit over the past few 

20 years on all sides. And this would just be a 

21 nice way to --

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.
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1 MR. STIVER: We would have to have 

2 a way to close the matters, once they were 

3 accomplished as well. So you would have a 

4 separate tracking process.

5 MR. KATZ: Well the action items. 

6 I mean, when you update each time, they go 

7 away. You wouldn't have that.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Right. All right. 

9 Anything else on, where are we, on OTIB-0052 

10 now?

11 MR. MARSCHKE: OTIB-0052, we had 

12 three more actually that were closed, we were 

13 recommending that be closed. If you look at 

14 the screen here, these are the changes that 

15 NIOSH made in response to a comments 9, 10, 

16 and 11. The first paragraph takes care of 

17 both 9 and 10. And the second paragraph up 

18 there takes care of issue 11.

19 And based upon these revisions to 

20 OTIB-0052, SC&A recommends that the findings 

21 be closed. All these findings, these three 

22 findings had to do with there was a NIOSH 
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1 report. That wasn't an OCAS or a DCAS NIOSH 

2 report. It was a NIOSH report that was 

3 prepared for INL but it did not -- and we got 

4 our hands on it and we looked at it. And it 

5 had doses to what we felt were construction 

6 workers and others.

7 It was pointed out to us we should 

8 not have used that report. We should not have 

9 looked at that report because they were doing

10 things which are definitely just on a view 

11 with the Act here because it has, for example, 

12 naval reactor facilities.

13 So when this was pointed out to 

14 us, we agreed with NIOSH's response and we are 

15 ready to see those three findings be closed. 

16 It is indicated in the -- a new paragraph has 

17 been added that explains that while they used 

18 a MUD database was not used and they explained 

19 why the MUD database was not used. And we 

20 agree with that explanation.

21 Finding 10 again, it was an INL 

22 epidemiological study. And it explains that 
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1 the NIOSH 2005 data was not used because of 

2 service workers are grouped with construction 

3 trade workers, a practice that is inconsistent 

4 with the approach taken at OTIB-0052. And we 

5 agree with that explanation and close the -- 

6 recommend that issue 10 be closed.

7 Claimant favorability issue. Was 

8 claimant favorability of OTIB-0052 approach 

9 for an INL early period internal dose cannot 

10 be determined. As indicated in the proposed 

11 changes, the second paragraph was modified. 

12 Much of the basis for finding 52 was data 

13 obtained in the NISOH 2005 epidemiological 

14 study. And as indicated in response, that 

15 study contained service worker data, as well 

16 as construction trade worker data, and it was 

17 therefore inconsistent with the approach taken 

18 in OTIB-0052.

19 So we agreed with NIOSH that the 

20 2005 epidemiological study should not be the 

21 basis for the calculations.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Is there any 
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1 objection to closing Findings 9, 10 and 11?

2 (Pause.)

3 CHAIR MUNN: If not, let us please 

4 make that entry on the database in almost the 

5 same wording as the last one, wasn't it? 

6 Almost. Yes, very good. Excellent. 

7 This is most satisfying.

8 MR. MARSCHKE: It's the little 

9 things.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, it is.

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Okay, so those are 

12 --

13 CHAIR MUNN: We now have 9, 10, 

14 and 11 closed.

15 MR. MARSCHKE: Nine has been 

16 changed. And 9, 10, and 11.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Changed and closed. 

18 Excellent.

19 And due to the fact that the few 

20 things that we have remaining on our agenda 

21 are essentially administrative, I think that 

22 wraps up most of our technical issues that we 
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1 have to address right now.

2 I suggest we take a very short ten 

3 minute comfort break and then we will wrap up 

4 our administrative activities and let you all 

5 get out of here. Okay? We will be back at 

6 five minutes to 3:00 Eastern Time.

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off 

8 the record at 2:45 p.m. and went 

9 back on the record at 2:56 p.m.)

10 MR. KATZ: Go ahead. We're on.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Very good. We are 

12 back. Anybody on the phone?

13 DR. MAURO: Yes, this is John. 

14 I've been here for about 45 minutes.

15 CHAIR MUNN: Good. That's great.

16 DR. MAURO: In fact, I will let 

17 you finish up with the introductions but I do 

18 have something I would like to bring up.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, please do. This 

20 is a good time to do it.

21 DR. MAURO: When I came on the 

22 phone oh, a half hour, 45 minutes ago, there 
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1 was a conversation going on regarding OTIB2 0052 and Steve was talking about PERs.

3 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: With the idea being 

5 that the outcome, perhaps, of many of this 

6 procedure review process could end up 

7 triggering a PER.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 DR. MAURO: And I had a thought to 

10 leave with you all. You know, with these two11 pagers that I also understand are all 

12 undergoing review by the Subcommittee and 

13 eventually, I guess, the Board -

14 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

15 DR. MAURO: -- one of the things 

16 that we don't do at the end of these two17 pagers is that after we have identified how 

18 the issues are resolved in general terms, we 

19 never really say anything about whether or not 

20 there might be some action taken related to 

21 revising any dose reconstructions.

22 Is this something that might be 
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1 worth talking about for inclusion in these 

2 two-pagers?

3 CHAIR MUNN: My knee jerk reaction 

4 to that would be no.

5 DR. MAURO: Okay.

6 CHAIR MUNN: And the reason for 

7 that is that I would be very hesitant to 

8 encourage any expectation of a casual reader 

9 that something might occur, the operative word 

10 being might.

11 It is very easy, my observation is 

12 that in this program, particularly, it is very 

13 easy to raise expectation in the potential 

14 claimant group that are not realistic in their 

15 concepts and may never come to fruition. I 

16 would hate to do anything that might encourage 

17 that.

18 DR. MAURO: I understand.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Paul has something to 

20 say.

21 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well a separate 

22 comment. All we are doing with these two-
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1 pagers is reporting in a condensed way for 

2 public what is in the main document. The main 

3 document, unless it is arguing about doing 

4 that or discussing that, it is not part of 

5 that document anyway. And it would seem to me 

6 that we shouldn't be discussing doing Program 

7 Evaluation Reports outside the context of the 

8 document itself and putting it in the summary.

9 If I understand what you are 

10 suggesting, I mean --

11 DR. MAURO: No, it was a thought--

12 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- what you 

13 suggest may very well occur but it seems to me 

14 it is a separate conversation in a sense.

15 MR. KATZ: John, what we had 

16 discussed when we were talking about this 

17 earlier was, I mean, that is an automatic 

18 internal process of DCAS when they change a 

19 procedure to look at the need for a PER. That 

20 operates on its own independently as a result 

21 of changes to dose reconstruction procedures.

22 MEMBER ZIEMER: But what I am 
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1 saying is we don't include that conversation 

2 as part of your document that we are reviewing 

3 or resolving. So I don't think I would want 

4 to include it.

5 DR. MAURO: I understand and I 

6 agree. And when you were thinking about it 

7 within that context, I think that it would be 

8 premature to even attempt to do that as part 

9 of this process that we are in. I understand 

10 what you are saying.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Any other comments in 

12 that regard? If not, then we will go to the 

13 first item that I placed on here because I 

14 think it seems to be something that we haven't 

15 come to any real conclusion on as to whether 

16 or not it is actually within our purview. And 

17 that is the question of tracking overarching 

18 issues.

19 I know that Jim has been keeping, 

20 Jim Neton has been keeping track of what those 

21 few items are. I believe there are seven, 

22 possibly eight of them. But we have never 
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1 undertaken any tracking method to identify 

2 whether anything is going on with those items 

3 and if so, whether we should or even could be 

4 involved in them in any way.

5 If there is any feeling in the 

6 group here with regard to whether or not we 

7 need to give some thought to that or whether 

8 we should, very frankly, just stay out of that 

9 particular venue, I would be pleased to have 

10 any comments anyone has.

11 Any thoughts? Am I incorrect in 

12 being a little concerned about our lack of 

13 tracking? So many of our items are closed 

14 based on the issues that they are going to be 

15 tracked in overarching issues.

16 MR. STIVER: At the last workgroup 

17 meeting there was a lot of talk and Steve 

18 brought up the idea of putting up some kind of 

19 a dummy procedure that would capture all these 

20 things. It sounds like Jim has kind of got 

21 something like that going now for the DCAS 

22 side.
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1 But some of these things, you 

2 know, I have seen a couple of the examples 

3 that would come up just in relation to the SEC 

4 petition that I have been working on, we have 

5 by virtue of doing the research, you come up 

6 with some major changes to an overarching 

7 process that applies to other sites as well.

8 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

9 MR. STIVER: But there is really 

10 no mechanism to get that into another setting11 related document for that other side, unless 

12 that other group happens to know about what is 

13 going on in the previous group.

14 So this idea of being able to 

15 track those issues and make sure that they are 

16 applied where necessary, you know, 

17 acknowledges, discover new methods that are 

18 proposed, I think would be a good idea.

19 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I want to state 

20 publicly that it neither my desire to broaden 

21 the scope of what we are already looking at 

22 nor is it my desire to question whether Dr. 
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1 Neton is going to be tracking these 

2 appropriately.

3 I think in both cases, none of us 

4 need any more work to do; and two, Jim is 

5 certainly more than capable of keeping very 

6 close tabs on where these things are going. 

7 But there are so many tentacles that fall out 

8 from these overarching issues that it just 

9 seems to be a question that may need a little 

10 brainstorming to actually respond to properly.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Wanda, it occurs 

12 to me that at least we are doing it 

13 informally. Maybe it needs to be structurally 

14 modified. But for example on resuspension, 

15 after that issue had occurred in several 

16 different venues, different sites and so on, 

17 people said you know, this is sort of a 

18 reoccurring overarching thing but we need a 

19 document to deal with that.

20 And that has occurred in a lot of 

21 cases. Construction workers in an overarching 

22 example. And we have a number of them that 
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1 almost by their title you can tell that they 

2 are not site-specific. They apply just 

3 broadly how you do internal dose 

4 reconstruction, broadly.

5 And so, we have a whole number 

6 that we already know are overarching we are 

7 tracking. I think other than that, it simply 

8 requires that people recognize that we have 

9 something reoccurring that is not site10 specific.

11 It seems to me it has worked so 

12 far. What would be falling through the 

13 cracks? There are cases. In fact, we have 

14 gone back to see if we have been consistent in 

15 how we are doing things. And one of the 

16 consistency issues that is for example do we 

17 do resuspension the same for, I don't know, 

18 General Steel Industries as Savannah River or 

19 something like that.

20 So we want to have some 

21 consistency. So there is an effort to do that 

22 and it is true we are relying on the players 
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1 to recognize when we are having the sort of 

2 reoccurring themes. But beyond that, what 

3 would one do to formalize it?

4 CHAIR MUNN: I can't imagine, 

5 other than make a list and identify what 

6 actions are being taken under the specific 

7 items.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: It just occurred 

9 to me that almost every time we have had this, 

10 this occurred there, there and there. And we 

11 need to be --

12 CHAIR MUNN: We need to coordinate 

13 it somewhere.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: It has resulted in 

15 a number of these.

16 MR. STIVER: So you don't really 

17 see a need for the Board to track these 

18 independently.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well each of these 

20 issues is being tracked on its own merit 

21 already.

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, and Jim 
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1 certainly is taking a close enough look at it.

2 MR. MARSCHKE: I just wanted to 

3 point out that we have a number of issues 

4 which we have, I think, status as being 

5 addressed in some generic issue. And so we 

6 have to kind of keep an eye on what Jim is 

7 doing in order so that when he comes to a 

8 resolution of that generic issue that these 

9 are supposedly addressed in, that we can then 

10 go back and hopefully close out those handful 

11 or however many those issues there are that we 

12 have already put into that category.

13 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think almost all 

14 the ones that are in the category either have 

15 been reviewed or are in process. I mean 

16 construction workers is an example in OTIB17 0070 is an example.

18 MR. MARSCHKE: Those are existing 

19 TIBs and so those are in the document. These 

20 overarching issues, I think are more like 

21 inhalation rates.

22 DR. ULSH: Ingestion, angular.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Where we don't 

2 currently have one.

3 MR. MARSCHKE: We don't currently 

4 have a TIB, or an OTIB, or a document.

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: How do we know 

6 something has come out?

7 MR. MARSCHKE: How do we know that 

8 something has come out and there is a position 

9 on this? And even if something does come out, 

10 how do we know that it relates back to these 

11 particular issues that we have said, well this 

12 is a generic issue addressing such and such 

13 generic issue.

14 I can't give an example right off 

15 the top of my head where this occurs. But it 

16 seems to have been some of the issues 

17 associated with maybe the initial batch of 

18 procedures that were reviewed I think had a 

19 number of ones that we said, we resolved them 

20 by saying that they were addressed in the 

21 generic issue.

22 And we know that there is a 
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1 generic issue addressing that subject. We 

2 don't know where it stands. We don't know 

3 whether it is resolved.

4 CHAIR MUNN: But the silver lining 

5 is that with our new capabilities with this 

6 new database, we can at least search by term. 

7 So that --

8 MR. MARSCHKE: I can't find it.

9 CHAIR MUNN: You can't find them?

10 MR. MARSCHKE: I can't find 

11 addressed in.

12 DR. ULSH: Oh, you mean search by 

13 status.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: I was looking to 

15 search by status here. I can't find addressed 

16 in. And there is no --

17 DR. ULSH: Well right. We don't 

18 have that capability.

19 MR. KATZ: Well you can search by 

20 overarching issue or whatever if you use that 

21 terminology. And then you will be --

22 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, if we do.
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1 MR. MARSCHKE: If we do? If we 

2 did.

3 DR. ULSH: Hold on. Hold on. I 

4 have been hoping that you guys would talk 

5 yourself out of this. But since you don't 

6 seem to be, --

7 CHAIR MUNN: We're trying.

8 DR. ULSH: Does it seem like each 

9 of the overarching issues originates in some 

10 document review setting?

11 CHAIR MUNN: Some group of 

12 document review settings.

13 DR. ULSH: Maybe it is a TBD, 

14 maybe it is a TIB or whatever.

15 MR. STIVER: A White Paper.

16 DR. ULSH: So what happens then 

17 is, -- I mean here is an idea for you to 

18 consider. In the database a particular 

19 overarching issue originates in a document but 

20 then it is transferred. We can make a 

21 category transferred to overarching. And that 

22 way when we search on status and we look for 
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1 transferred to overarching, all those issues 

2 will pop up.

3 Now of course administratively, 

4 you are going to have to decide who is in 

5 charge of the care and feeding of those 

6 issues. But that would at least put them in a 

7 place that --

8 MR. KATZ: I don't even recall 

9 what we have actually transferred. Do you? 

10 Do you have examples where we have actually 

11 transferred something? I don't think so.

12 CHAIR MUNN: I don't know that we 

13 have transferred them. I think we have closed 

14 them, though.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Well we 

16 transferred in TBD-6000, we have transferred 

17 the item on resuspension to this document.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes. Well there is a 

19 procedure for it. Right.

20 MEMBER ZIEMER: Yes, there is a 

21 procedure for it.

22 MR. KATZ: That's taken care of.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: Now on the others, 

2 have we done any where we have said well, it 

3 is an overarching issue so it will be solved 

4 somehow separately but no one is looking at 

5 it?

6 DR. ULSH: Currently, these things 

7 are being tracked by Jim. He has got a list 

8 of them. They are on a PowerPoint slide. 

9 That is how they are tracked right now.

10 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that is how we 

11 have got them. That is how we see them.

12 MR. STIVER: Could I say something 

13 for a second? At first it was another 

14 category really. There are two examples that

15 come to mind. One being how the weighted air 

16 sampling data that are applied, another being 

17 recycled uranium. Now these have not gotten 

18 to a level of being in a procedure but they 

19 are emerging in White Papers that come out 

20 related to specific sites but yet, they have 

21 implications for a lot of other sites. There 

22 is no way that is going to be captured in this 
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1 database.

2 There could be some profound 

3 implications for consistency and quality 

4 across different sites. 

5 MEMBER ZIEMER: Right now they are 

6 a site-specific finding.

7 MR. STIVER: Yes.

8 MEMBER ZIEMER: So they are in the 

9 system.

10 MR. KATZ: But it seems like 

11 historically how this happens is when you do 

12 have these issues and you have a major change 

13 or whatever, a resolution of one of those 

14 issues associated with a site, that then gets 

15 integrated by DCAS into other procedures, 

16 other sites where it is applicable.

17 DR. ULSH: Well, one would hope 

18 that that is the way it goes.

19 MR. STIVER: Well eventually, it 

20 might just kind of happen, unless the two 

21 issues are being investigated simultaneously.

22 DR. ULSH: Say an issue pops up at 
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1 Blockson and the Blockson group decides, you 

2 know this is really an overarching issue. We 

3 are not going to address it necessarily here 

4 in Blockson. Let's put it on the overarching 

5 issues list. And then later on we do a review 

6 at, I don't know, Savannah River, some other 

7 site, and that same issues pops up. At that 

8 point, it should be attached not only to 

9 Blockson but also to Savannah River, so that 

10 when that overarching issue is addressed on 

11 that happy day, then that filters back down, 

12 it cascades down to all the affected sites.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Well it doesn't sound 

14 as though we are any closer to an answer to 

15 the question than when we first started 

16 talking about it. But I certainly don't think 

17 we are in a position to make a decision one 

18 way or another. It seems to me it is just an 

19 item that all of us need to sort of keep in 

20 the back of our heads as the potential that 

21 this Procedures Subcommittee may need to 

22 address.
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1 It is a mistake for us to have 

2 even begun to address it, I think, in Jim's 

3 absence. He really and truly should be here.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: Looking at what is 

5 on the screen at the moment, is that a term 

6 that we are currently using, global issues?

7 MR. MARSCHKE: No, I don't know if 

8 we are currently using it. This is a term 

9 that we had.

10 This is a printout of the old 

11 Access database. So I can do a search for, in 

12 this case, global issues. And I believe that 

13 in 2006 may be what we were calling 

14 overarching issues at that point in time.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Whatever the term 

16 is, it seems to me that you could at least bin 

17 them the way that Brant has described. What 

18 you did with them later is a separate issue. 

19 But there could be a sort category.

20 DR. ULSH: Well there could be. I 

21 mean, that would put them all in one place. 

22 Right now, this database or web-based 
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1 application, --

2 CHAIR MUNN: It is a database.

3 DR. ULSH: -- is only used by the 

4 Subcommittee. We all know that eventually we 

5 want to roll it out broader but right now it 

6 is here.

7 So if we decide that the place 

8 these things are going to be tracked is in 

9 this database, kind of by default you guys are 

10 in charge of it.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Well, I am not prone 

12 to just any action now. If someone else is, 

13 please do let me know. I certainly appreciate 

14 your thoughts, Brant, about establishing a 

15 category. That would certainly resolve a lot 

16 of my concerns about it.

17 I shouldn't think it would 

18 complicate anything for Jim. I would think it 

19 might be even easier for him.

20 DR. ULSH: He would just have to 

21 learn to use the database.

22 MR. MARSCHKE: I think what we can 
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1 do, actually we may be able to do that now. 

2 Now that I know what they are called, we may 

3 be able to come up here and look for global 

4 issues.

5 This is global. This is not going 

6 to be much help. This is global. And no. Or 

7 did I spell it wrong?

8 DR. ULSH: No, no. You didn't 

9 spell it wrong but you might want to click on 

10 -

11 MR. MARSCHKE: Oh, maybe. There 

12 it is.

13 DR. ULSH: Yes, there you go.

14 MR. MARSCHKE: There is a couple 

15 of them there. I don't know. It seems like 

16 there should be more. But there is an issue 

17 OTIB-04-012 and OTIB-04-013.

18 DR. ULSH: They both look like 

19 they are what we are looking for, overarching 

20 type issues. Right?

21 MR. MARSCHKE: So there is a way. 

22 You can use this search capability if you 
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1 make sure that you have embedded somewhere in 

2 the discussion either overarching or global or 

3 some key word that we all agree to.

4 DR. ULSH: Well, if you want to 

5 chew on those ideas and pick it up.

6 CHAIR MUNN: We may pick it up at 

7 a later date. I will certainly make a note of 

8 it and we will not let it drop completely off 

9 the table.

10 The next one is very short, the 

11 status of the 14 two-pagers which at our last 

12 meeting we took a look at. We went through 

13 all of them. There were a half dozen or so 

14 where they needed to be expanded and the 

15 wording needed to be cleaned up. And I 

16 volunteered to do that and to get it back to 

17 you so you could all see it again and approve 

18 or disprove my comments.

19 And you will be happy to know that 

20 you do not have those in front of you and they 

21 will not be forthcoming for another week. So 

22 we need not worry about that. But it will be 
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1 coming to you.

2 And I had hoped to have in front 

3 of you the remaining 15 new two-pagers that 

4 SC&A has done but has not yet released to us. 

5 And I was told in a very gentle way that it 

6 would be nice if we addressed the ones that we 

7 had before they send us the new batch. So 

8 there is some merit to that position.

9 MEMBER ZIEMER: I think I just got 

10 15 a day or two ago.

11 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, no. I think what 

12 you got a day or two ago was duplicates of the 

13 original information that was sent out from 

14 SC&A, the ones that we were already working 

15 on.

16 They had sent them out originally 

17 as a PDF file. And I had pointed out -- it 

18 was my problem. My system does not deal with 

19 PDF files that I want to change. And I do not 

20 have the -- you have got to pay for this 

21 capability. And that is what I had asked for. 

22 So that is the same material in Word that you 
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1 already have in PDF file.

2 MEMBER ZIEMER: But there were 15 

3 not --

4 CHAIR MUNN: In total that we have 

5 already got and there are 15 more coming. But 

6 the ones that have already been documented, we 

7 are complete on six, I believe, plus the 

8 introduction. And then there are another 12 

9 that Nancy just sent out again.

10 MEMBER ZIEMER: So these ones here 

11 that she just sent out again are --

12 CHAIR MUNN: Replicates of the PDF 

13 file.

14 MEMBER ZIEMER: -- replicates of 

15 the 14 that you were talking about originally.

16 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, that you already 

17 have and that we have already looked at.

18 MEMBER ZIEMER: And you were going 

19 to send out final forms of those?

20 CHAIR MUNN: I will send out clean 

21 final forms without all of the tracking 

22 information but including some of my 
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1 additional verbiage on the last few that we 

2 had agreed I would clean up and send to you.

3 So those will be coming.

4 MEMBER ZIEMER: I suppose every 

5 time I look at them, I have different things 

6 because I had the markups on these.

7 CHAIR MUNN: Well yes, that is 

8 because some of them were probably the same 

9 markups that we took care of last time we met 

10 and because we had them in a PDF file.

11 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, and the 

12 changes hadn't been made.

13 CHAIR MUNN: Had not been made, so 

14 far as I know.

15 MEMBER ZIEMER: Oh, I got you. I 

16 got you.

17 CHAIR MUNN: As I understand it, 

18 they have not.

19 MEMBER ZIEMER: Okay. All right. 

20 I don't have to go back and make the same 

21 markups as I did before. All those two-pagers 

22 start to look alike.
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1 CHAIR MUNN: Yes, I know. They do 

2 after a while, don't they? I will try to get 

3 them in such an order that it will be clear to 

4 you what we have done about that.

5 We need to look at our calendars 

6 to see when we are going to meet again.

7 MR. KATZ: We are missing two 

8 Members for that, really three.

9 CHAIR MUNN: We are. But we know 

10 some of the things we can't do. I was hoping 

11 that we could be looking sometime in September 

12 for our next meeting. Is that going to be --

13 Does that sound like it is a reasonable thing 

14 for us to be looking towards -- I don't want 

15 us to be in the position of meeting without 

16 having made progress on our action items, that 

17 we have quite a few that don't appear to have 

18 a great deal of time attached to them.

19 So is September a reasonable time 

20 to be looking at things for those of us who 

21 are here?

22 DR. ULSH: Even though a lot of 
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1 the action items like you said are sort of 

2 administrative and won't take a lot of time, I 

3 think, --

4 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

5 DR. ULSH: -- a short turnaround 

6 between this meeting and the next is 

7 appropriate because we can just clean those 

8 off.

9 CHAIR MUNN: I would certainly like 

10 to do that, if we possibly could. How does --

11 Let's stay away from the starting of school 

12 and all that sort of thing.

13 DR. ULSH: When is the Board 

14 meeting? Is it August 29th?

15 MR. KATZ: The 23rd.

16 CHAIR MUNN: The Board meeting is 

17 the 23rd through the 25th of August. So would 

18 a month after that be appropriate? September 

19 the 20th? That's a Tuesday.

20 Let's tentatively -- what about 

21 you, Paul? Are you okay? Let's tentatively 

22 choose September the 20th as our next meeting.
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1 MEMBER ZIEMER: What dates are the 

2 possible ones for GSI?

3 MR. KATZ: GSI, the 20th was the 

4 last date actually of the dates that we gave 

5 that. So we shouldn't include the 20th. That 

6 would take the day away from GSI.

7 CHAIR MUNN: What about 21?

8 MR. KATZ: Yes, so 21 is okay.

9 CHAIR MUNN: Would that work well, 

10 Wednesday the 21?

11 MR. KATZ: It's fine for me.

12 CHAIR MUNN: Unless we have too 

13 many people who just absolutely can't make 

14 that, let's try to get it on the calendar.

15 MR. KATZ: Right. We will have to 

16 ask our other Board Members.

17 CHAIR MUNN: Yes.

18 MR. KATZ: I will send them an 

19 email.

20 CHAIR MUNN: Oh, thank you. If 

21 you will ask all three of them if they are 

22 available, it would be helpful.
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1 Any other thoughts, comments, 

2 actions, unaddressed problems, dietary 

3 restrictions? If not, we are adjourned for 

4 the day. Thank you all for you time and 

5 efforts. 

6 (Whereupon, at 3:24 p.m., the

7 above-entitled matter was 

8 adjourned.)

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