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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION

+ + + + +

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY

AND HEALTH

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND 

WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

SUBCOMMITTEE ON DOSE RECONSTRUCTION REVIEWS

+ + + + +

THURSDAY, JANUARY 7, 2010

+ + + + +

 The meeting came to order at 9:30 

a.m. Eastern Standard Time via teleconference, 

Mark Griffon, Chairman, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:

MARK GRIFFON, Chairman

BRAD CLAWSON

MIKE GIBSON

WANDA MUNN

JOHN POSTON
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ALSO PRESENT:

THEODORE KATZ, Acting Designated

Federal Official

IDENTIFIED PARTICIPANTS PRESENT:

ISAF AL-NABULSI, DOE

KATHY BEHLING, SC&A

DOUG FARVER, SC&A

STU HINNEFELD, OCAS

EMILY HOWELL, HHS

SCOTT SIEBERT, ORAU

BRANT ULSH, OCAS

CHRISTINA GOUCK (phonetic)
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

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(9:32 a.m.)

 MR. KATZ: This is the Advisory 

Board on Radiation and Worker Health, the Dose 

Reconstructions Review Subcommittee.

 This is Ted Katz. I'm the DFO for 

the Advisory Board. We're going to begin with 

roll call, beginning with Board members.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mark Griffon, 

Chair of the Subcommittee.

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Brad Clawson, 

Work Group member.

 MEMBER POSTON: John Poston, Work 

Group member.

 MEMBER MUNN: Wanda Munn, Work 

Group member.

 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, 

Subcommittee member.

 MR. KATZ: Any other Board members 

on? No?

 Okay, then members of the OCAS 

ORAU team?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Stu Hinnefeld and 

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Brant Ulsh from OCAS.

 MR. SIEBERT: Scott Siebert from

the ORAU team.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, and then the SC&A 

team.

 MS. BEHLING: Kathy Behling from

SC&A.

 MR. FARVER: Doug Farver, SC&A.

 MR. KATZ: Kathy, is that all we 

should expect today for SC&A? 

 MS. BEHLING: I thought John Mauro 

was going to join us also. 

 MR. KATZ: Okay, well maybe he 

will shortly. That takes care of SC&A.

 Okay then, HHS employees or 

contractors or other government employees or 

contractors?

 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS.

 MS. AL-NABULSI: Isaf Al-Nabulsi,

DOE.

 MR. KATZ: Okay then, and any 
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1 members of the public who would like to 

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identify themselves?

 MS. GOUCK: Christina Gouck. I 

work for the Post Office. I'm just a member 

of the public, though.

 MR. KATZ: Yes, welcome.

 MS. GOUCK: Thank you.

 MR. KATZ: Very good. Just let me 

ask everyone on the phone except for -- when 

you're speaking, keep your phone muted. If you 

don't have any mute button, please use *6 on 

your phone. It will work just like mute. And 

then if you need to come off of mute, you use 

*6 again. 

 If you need to leave the call at 

any time, just put -- hang up and dial back 

in. Don't use your hold, which will disrupt 

the call.

 And it's all yours, Mark.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thanks, Ted. 

This was -- I don't know if -- there was a

little confusion with the emails, so we were 
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1 actually considering cancelling this 

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Subcommittee meeting because of NIOSH, ORAU --

just with all the burden with other pressing 

issues on SEC issues, I believe, they asked 

that we might put this off because there 

wasn't much progress on the case work. 

 But I wanted to at least have this 

phone call just on the follow-up report on the 

first 100 cases. I expect this to be a quick 

meeting -- hopefully, an hour or maybe a 

little more than that, but just to go over 

this letter report. I hope everyone received 

the latest draft.

 I left it in red lines so people 

could see the changes I made from the first 

draft that we had put out at the last 

Subcommittee meeting.

 I actually went through the draft 

transcripts. I'm almost finished reviewing the 

entire transcript, by the way. That's another 

item that I have to return to NIOSH.

 But I did go through the 
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1 discussion that we had at the last meeting to 

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refresh my memory on this, and then I redrafted this letter report a little bit. I 

guess I should say up front that my intentions 

would be at this upcoming Board meeting to 

give a status report on this.

 The reason is that -- at least, 

especially in the first section, the Quality 

Control section -- I think, at the

Subcommittee, at the last meeting, we asked 

SC&A to look into some possible cases to do 

sort of drill-down investigations on.

 Doug Farver did get back to me 

yesterday or the day before. They've actually 

at least done some preliminary selections on 

some cases that they think would be 

appropriate. I feel like that might be 

something after we look into that, we might 

have a clear report for the full Board in 

terms of recommendations from the first 100 

cases. Until we do that, we're really sort of 

-- this is sort of interim report status.
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1 So I was just going to give this 

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as an oral sort of status report. I don't 

know that we should get hung up on the exact 

language in this draft report at this point 

until SC&A goes to the next step and does some 

of that additional work. That's one item.

 In the last section, there's the

section where we said what has come out of the 

-- as a result of the findings, for instance, 

there's the one item, dose reconstruction 

reports were modified. The report format was 

modified, it should probably say.

 In addition, there's, I think, 

three -- no, I think we've got three PERs that 

SC&A -- I think Kathy Behling looked into this 

and we ran this by Stu and I think we can say 

that three PERs were -- and I think I'll --

we'll have to work on the wording on this, but 

I think three PERs were at least in part 

related to the first 100 case findings.

 Stu, I think that wording --

something like that would probably be okay 
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1 with you. It's unclear, I think, some -- one 

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of the PERs, at least, was sort of -- it might 

have been underway while the findings were 

being considered so it's not clear whether 

NIOSH was already beginning to re-evaluate 

those cases or whether it was a result of the 

finding.

 But I think if we said something 

like at least in part related to -- that sort 

of shows what things were changed in the 

program as a result of these first 100 case 

reviews.

 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I think --

Mark, this is Stu -- the language you sent in 

your email -- at least, in the part of the 

email that related to the three PERs or 

whatever language you used, I thought was 

pretty good.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, it's 

pretty clear to us -- we know the date when 

the lymphoma target organs issue came up, and 
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1 it was at the CLL conference, the NIOSH Health 

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Evaluation Research Branch.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

and I was actually at that meeting.

 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and I think 

it was actually like a sidebar conversation 

during that meeting was where the subject 

first came up.

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

 MR. HINNEFELD: So we had started 

down this and we have really not gone very far 

and we hadn't really announced publicly we 

were going down this path when the finding 

came up in Dose Reconstruction. 

 It's kind of like it reinforces --

I think we would have been there anyway with 

the PER. I think we're pretty confident we 

would have been there. But you can say, 

certainly, it's in part related to the 

findings, I think.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think that 

would be the safe way to word it. That 
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1 wording is not in this draft because I've got 

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comments back from Doug and Stu in the last 

couple days. I didn't get a chance to re-edit 

this draft. I didn't think it was really 

necessary for the phone call meeting. 

 So just to step back for a second. 

I got a little ahead of myself, probably, but 

the letter or this report is actually -- it's 

designed to come from our Subcommittee to the 

full Board for consideration. I guess it 

would be what the full Board wants to then do 

is an open issue for us to consider at the 

full Board meeting.

 Like I said, for this next 

meeting, I think I'm still at status reports 

stage and we can at least say that we're --

what I want to do also is -- so there's three 

major items, I guess, and then the fourth item 

would be the changes that have resulted as a 

result of the case reviews, which is the last 

item.

 The one, the first item, that's 
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1 the Quality Control/Quality Assurance section, 

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which we discussed fairly at length at the 

last meeting -- the second item is the 

appropriate use and consideration of 

information provided by the claimant workers 

and the public. The last item is the case 

documentation and reporting. 

 As you look through these, I also 

note -- and I think we had this in the last 

meeting -- transcripts reflect this -- but 

these topics can sort of overlap each other 

sometimes, so there might be a little overlap 

in these.

 But in item one from our last 

meeting; we had discussed the idea of looking 

at five or ten cases which had Quality Control 

findings and further investigating to see sort 

of why these occurred. 

 In the last -- actually, I think I 

emailed Doug back yesterday with some 

questions on -- but Doug Farver, from SC&A 

went through and found a number of cases 
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1 proposed. I think he came down with ten 

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selected cases.

 But I had a little bit of some 

follow-up questions for him. I don't know --

is Doug on the line?

 MR. FARVER: Yes, I'm here, Mark.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, yes. I 

mean, you could probably just -- I'll give an 

overview and you can probably add into this.

 But the ten cases that SC&A 

selected, and we obviously will consider these 

as a full Subcommittee at our next meeting --

if the Board doesn't want to further pursue 

this -- but the ten cases pretty much overlap 

the representative of all the Quality Control 

findings within the first -- I think we said 

to look at the first eight sets of case 

reviews, so that would bring us up to where 

we're kind of working now.

 They pretty much run the gamut of 

the different types of findings. The followup questions I have for Doug is do we know 
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1 which, from the ten that he pre-selected, do 

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we know the sites? Because on his Excel 

spreadsheet, I asked if he could list the site 

and the type of dose reconstruction -- whether 

it was over, under, or best estimate --

overestimate, underestimate, or best estimate. 

I think those are sort of important factors 

for us to consider.

 MEMBER MUNN: Mark, this is Wanda.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

 MEMBER MUNN: Are you proposing to 

postpone the submission of this first 100 case 

report until that work is done?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I'm 

proposing, yes, Wanda, because I thought that 

if we submit this to the Board, we don't 

really have a recommendation with regard to 

quality -- we're noting that Quality Control; 

there were several findings, but we still sort 

of haven't gotten to the bottom of -- if there 

is a bottom to get to. Is there an issue? Is 

there a recommendation that the Board can make 
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1 with regard to improving Quality Control or 

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when we do these drill-downs -- it might be 

that there's not really -- that the system is 

actually working.

 So I thought it might be premature 

to submit our report until we find that out.

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, my apologies

for not having sent my comment and 

submissions.

 COURT REPORTER: Pardon the 

interruption. This is the Court Reporter. 

Ms. Munn, if you could turn your volume up 

just a little bit or sit closer to your phone. 

Something --

 MEMBER MUNN: I will try to 

snuggle up to my phone a little bit.

 COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

 MEMBER MUNN: Is this better?

 COURT REPORTER: A little bit, 

thank you. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Alright, thanks. I 

have this morning sent to all of the people 
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1 who were listed as recipients in your original 

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draft some mark-ups to -- a significant number 

of mark-ups -- I don't know where it actually 

is, but --

 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, Ms. 

Munn. I'm having a terribly hard time hearing 

you.

 MEMBER MUNN: Let me see if I can 

call in from another -- from, perhaps, my cell 

phone and see if I can get a better volume for 

you.

 MR. KATZ: Charles, do you have a 

-- this is Ted Katz -- do you have a volume on 

yours because I can hear her very clearly?

 COURT REPORTER: Yes, I'm afraid

that I don't have it on this phone. I can 

control the ringer volume, but that is really 

it.

 MEMBER MUNN: Let me dial through 

on my cell phone.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Wanda, before 

you hang up and dial in again, did you send me 
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1 those mark-ups?

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 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. I only sent 

them this morning, Mark. My apologies.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

 MEMBER MUNN: I'm really sorry. 

It should be on your -- I just sent it CDC 

mail. Perhaps it -- I don't know whether it 

will be in that official form or if the 

members of the Subcommittee will keep the 

original.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I don't 

have the email. Did other people get this, 

Wanda's email?

 MR. KATZ: Yes, I got it. Mark, 

I'll forward it to you.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright, 

thanks.

 MEMBER MUNN: I sent it right 

after we started. I guess the real -- the 

real issue here is whether this is, in fact, 

going to continue to be the draft from which 

we work or if we're going to simply have 
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1 different sides --

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 COURT REPORTER: My apologies. 

This is Charles again. I can hear everybody 

pretty much okay except for you, Ms. Munn. I 

don't know if it's just a quirk of the 

conference call or what, but I'm really not 

able to record you.

 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. Hold on just 

a moment and let me see if I can get in on the 

other line.

 COURT REPORTER: I just want to 

make sure your comments get recorded.

 MEMBER MUNN: I do, too. I'd hate 

for you to miss my comments.

 MR. KATZ: Mark, you should have 

it. I don't know if you've looked.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I actually have 

it. It wasn't coming through on my 

BlackBerry, but I just logged onto the 

computer. I have, from Wanda, I have it.

 MEMBER MUNN: Okay, that's good. 

I'm on my cell phone now. Is that any better?
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1 COURT REPORTER: That's wonderful. 

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Thank you.

 MEMBER MUNN: I'll try to use the 

cell when I'm speaking.

 My concern was whether or not we 

were actually going to use this draft that we 

have or whether we are intending to postpone 

it for a significant period of time.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, my 

feeling, and I guess I wasn't sure at the time 

when I emailed it to people, but I think, 

after thinking about it more and getting a 

response from SC&A that I realize that it's 

probably -- we really are -- we can't really 

make any recommendations, especially about 

that first topic without going that one step 

further of looking back at some of those QC 

findings and seeing what, if anything, broke 

with the system, so to speak.

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, we could, in 

fact, simply make the statement that we have 

requested this additional work from SC&A and 
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1 would anticipate that any recommendations 

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would evolve out of that and the topic of 

future reports.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's true. I 

guess I was seeing that as a status report and 

then I was thinking then I could just give a 

verbal report instead of worrying about the 

language in this write-up.

 MEMBER MUNN: Well, okay.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't know. 

That was my sense of this. 

 The reason I wanted to at least 

circulate the draft was to at least get, and I 

appreciate your comments now, Wanda -- it will

take me a few minutes to digest them -- but to 

give Subcommittee members the chance to at 

least reflect on the general ideas and then --

I didn't want to have to submit the exact 

language of a report until we had more work 

done by SC&A. That was all. 

 MEMBER MUNN: Alright. You'll 

find most of what I have there is editorial in 
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1 nature. It hasn't really and truly changed 

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the thrust of what you've written.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I 

think we would -- yes. For the final version, 

we would have to do that work, and I'll 

certainly have your comments.

 Also, part of the -- it was a 

little difficult to write the first section 

until we've had more conclusive statements 

about just exactly what we find from the QC 

review.

 That was my hesitation to actually 

submit it, but I understand. I was thinking 

of the same thing you are, Wanda, before, that 

we would submit this report and then say we'll 

send another report after we get additional 

work done by SC&A. 

 But I was thinking maybe it's 

better as just a status report at this point, 

so that's what I'm proposing, just to give a 

status update verbally.

 MEMBER MUNN: My only caution 
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1 would be that I cannot foresee a time when the 

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Subcommittee will be operable and we will not 

have some sort of activity in abeyance.

 I'm not urging you to go ahead and 

do this. I'm just commenting on the 

straightforward realization of that.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, but I think 

in this case, it is a fine -- if we indicate 

to the Board that we're proposing to have SC&A 

do this additional work -- and that's the only 

thing really outstanding in this report is the 

follow-up on the Quality Control, as far as I 

can see anyway unless other people have other 

items.

 But that's a review of ten and 

that is at least defined in nature. It's not 

open-ended.

 MEMBER MUNN: Essentially, you 

just want to have recommendations available 

for the QA/QC section before we submit it.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Right, 

that's my feeling, yes.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Alright. 

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19 

20 

21 

22 

 MEMBER GIBSON: Wanda, this Mike. 

Maybe I'm jumping ahead, but not only is 

there this issue number one, but number two, 

there are also some open issues that I think 

NIOSH owes you and owes some of the other work 

groups answers on that I don't know that we're 

final on, either.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I guess 

you are right, Mike. There's -- if people 

look at number two for a second, especially 

the second item, I do sort of defer that this 

work is also being looked at in the Worker 

Outreach Group, so that is true.

 MEMBER MUNN: And if you look at 

the comments that I added to number three 

there, we didn't mention the fact that we did 

a lot of work on the CATI during Procedures. 

Several things changed as a result of what the 

Procedures Subcommittee found with CATI 

interviews.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and that 
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1 is correct, and that should be added in, 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Wanda, the CATI and then the PER stuff that I 

just received.

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. I had assumed 

that today we were going to work on the PER 

word-smithing. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I 

have. I mean, we can at least get an update. 

I think the one thing that I -- my 

understanding from the PERs was -- and Kathy 

can probably -- Kathy Behling can probably 

give me a quick update on that.

 But there were three identified, 

and Stu seems in agreement with those. I was 

just going to add those in.

 Kathy, can you tell me the three. 

I'm quickly thumbing through emails, but you 

can probably have it at the tip of your 

fingers better than I do.

 MS. BEHLING: Yes. The first PER 

that I identified was the target organ for 

lymphoma. It's PER 9. 
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1 As you indicated, I did want to 

2 

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9 

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11 

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20 

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pass this by Stu Hinnefeld first because we --

I was using the first set of cases. 

Obviously, I looked at the first 100 cases --

but I was looking at the first set, and the 

lymphoma issue did come up in our very first 

set, and that's our report which was issued in 

February of, I think, 2005.

 I hadn't seen any other 

information regarding that lymphoma issue, so 

that's why I wanted to be sure that, like we 

said, Stu could confirm that that was accurate 

or not.

 The only other thing that I 

remember from that lymphoma issue was that, I 

believe during our issues-resolution session, 

we talked about that. I think initially I was 

under the impression that NIOSH was not in 

agreement with our findings.

 So that's why I thought that maybe 

SC&A did play some role in that lymphoma 

issue. But I will say that I'm in agreement 
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1 with Stu. We didn't know the background or 

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9 

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the history for that particular case. 

 I'll also mention here that during 

our writing of our proposal and procedures for 

the PER reviews, the technical contracting 

committee had directed us not to even address 

the initial sub-task one, which is the support 

or the basis for the PERs. So this is just 

something that I was responding to his request 

for, but I will note that we're not even 

addressing that particular issue when we go 

and look at the PERs in detail.

 The second PER that I mentioned 

was PER 20, which had to do with changes that 

were made to the Blockson Technical Basis 

Document. In that PER, Stu does agree that we 

were instrumental in the changes that were 

made to the Blockson TBD.

 The third one -- in fact, I'm 

looking for this right now. The third one, I 

believe, was the Huntington Pilot Plant, which 

I'm searching for that PER number. I think 
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1 it's PER --

2 

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7 

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9 

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12 

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15 

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20 

21 

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 MR. HINNEFELD: Kathy, the third 

one you listed, I think, was Bethlehem Steel, 

I thought.

 MS. BEHLING: It was Bethlehem 

Steel. I'm sorry. Initially, I had looked at 

Huntington because I know we had some comments 

there too, but those changes had already been 

incorporated. Yes, thank you, Stu. I'm 

looking through my email here, too. 

 So yes, it was PER 7, which was 

the Rev 2 of the Bethlehem Steel site profile. 

PER 9, the target organ for lymphoma, and PER 

20, the Blockson TBD revision. 

 So those were the three that I 

felt we at least were instrumental in having 

that PER issued.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, and 

those -- I sent this to give people the 

background. I also responded to that email to 

Stu and suggested that language, which I don't 

have the exact wording, but something to the 
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1 effect that these PERs were initiated at least 

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6 

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10 

11 

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in part due to findings from the first -- I 

don't think we need to split hairs about, was 

NIOSH already working on the target organ for 

lymphoma stuff or did that happen right after 

the -- you know.

 I think if we say, at least in 

part related to, I think NIOSH and Stu seems 

comfortable with that kind of language. 

That's not in this draft yet, but that kind of 

thing, I think, will be included in that last 

section along with -- you're right, Wanda --

the CATI.

 I was thinking of the dose 

reconstruction report format modifications, 

but also the CATI was modified.

 MEMBER GIBSON: Mark, this is 

Mike.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Go ahead, 

Mike.

 MEMBER GIBSON: Not only just the 

CATI modified, just, to me, the real intent to 
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1 point number two would be, was appropriate use 

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19 

20 

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and consideration of information given from 

input workers gave.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Now 

that's a separate issue. In number two, the 

CATI being modified we're sort of listing at 

the end as a positive result of the first 100 

case reviews and these PERs being done. 

 These re-evaluations of cases are

a result of the item number two on the second 

page of the draft report. 

That discusses, I guess, outstanding concerns 

about how, and at the bottom of item number 

two, I list A, B, and C as sort of proposed 

recommendations. I think one of those, as you 

noted, Mike, one of those, I'm sort of 

relating back to the Worker Outreach Work 

Group.

 This gets into the, how was the 

information -- or was it being used by NIOSH 

for the dose reconstruction program in its 

entirety. That comes up under that second 
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1 sort of critical issue; I guess is what I 

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would call it, number two.

 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I guess I 

feel the same way. I'm trying to steer this 

conversation a different direction because, 

truth be known, it's just a pet peeve of mine. 

 I listened in on a meeting 

yesterday or a day or so ago with the Linde 

Work Group, and just some information had been 

given to OCAS a few weeks in advance, and 

nothing has been done with it. It seemed to 

be a very frustrating meeting for [identifying 

information redacted]. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, and this 

is one -- I guess we should look at these -- I 

haven't -- again, I haven't looked at your 

comments on this section, Wanda, but my 

recommendation -- and that's why I felt 

probably more comfortable in this upcoming 

Board meeting to do a status report rather 

than worry about the exact language of these 

because some of these should’s and shall’s and 
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1 may-consider's; we might have to work through 

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some of the language on this.

 I looked back at the transcripts 

from our last discussion, and a couple things 

that came out were that NIOSH should consider 

the modification of procedures, policies to 

emphasize use the information provided by the 

claimants and to more specifically address 

comments made by the claimant.

 This came out of the discussion of 

-- there's often boilerplate language in the 

DR report that says all incidents mentioned by 

the claimants would be bounded by the internal 

dose assigned or something like that. That 

sort of boilerplate language is included, but 

often specifics cited by the individual 

weren't characterized in the DR report at all, 

so it leaves the question of whether they were 

even really considered or just sort of 

dismissed. So that's just an initial point.

 The other question was this whole 

idea of -- and this might be -- it probably is 
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1 being discussed in more detail in the Worker 

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8 

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10 

11 

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18 

19 

20 

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Outreach, but the question of how the 

individuals are being interviewed. 

 This goes probably a little beyond 

the CATI report, but also when workers are 

being interviewed for information on the site 

profile or other instances or follow-up on 

their CATI, there doesn't seem to be any sort 

of -- I guess the question would be the 

consistency of approach. For example, would a 

health physics manager be -- you know, the 

information obtained from an interview with a 

health physics manager -- how is that treated 

compared to a maintenance foreman.

 I would argue that they both have 

valuable information. They could be very 

different information, but they both could 

have valuable information as it pertains to 

assessing doses. So the one question was

we're questioning how that information is 

being used and is there an approach, 

standardized sort of approach by NIOSH, to do 
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1 that.

2 

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9 

10 

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12 

13 

14 

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16 

17 

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19 

20 

21 

22 

 Then the last one is the follow up 

on contacts listed by the claimant in their 

report. There was a section and still is a 

section, although we modified wording to sort 

of say that it won't necessarily be contact 

data, which is good, because I wouldn't expect 

that all individuals be contacted that are 

mentioned in the CATI reports. It's just not 

necessary.

 I also -- it does seem that there 

should be sort of some kind of approach of 

when or when you wouldn't or when you would 

consider using those contacts or trying to get 

a hold of those people.

 MEMBER MUNN: Mark, I tried to 

capture all of that, the language that I just 

submitted to you. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay and I'll 

have to look at those. As I was talking, 

Wanda, my frustrating government computer just 

went off-line so I have to re-login to see 
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1 your email again.

2 

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14 

15 

16 

17 

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20 

21 

22 

 Anyway, I will. Anybody else who 

wants to send -- this is the time to send in 

further comments or wording. Today, I guess 

the -- what I was going to do is propose to 

sort of lay out what we've discussed at the 

last meeting mainly and what is sort of the 

general items in this report that we're 

working on and not get into the exact way 

we're going to word it or anything. 

 But if there's anything that you

believe we missed or that should or should not 

be in here, maybe that -- I'd love to hear 

that today if people have thoughts on that. 

If you want to provide them in writing, that's 

fine, too. Like I said, I don't want to 

submit this to the Board at this point.

 MEMBER MUNN: Just let me clarify 

something again. One thing I'd like to have 

clarified, I'm not sure I understood you 

correctly, Mark.

 With respect to the PER reviews, 
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1 we are going to await information on the 

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20 

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results from SC&A before we complete what you 

just simply indicated in the last sentence of 

your draft. That will be one of the 

additional items that will be covered; 

correct?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think for the 

PER reviews, we have those three items that --

unless members of the Subcommittee object or 

have done their homework and think other items 

are related. I'm taking it from Kathy 

Behling, who researched this and found that 

PER 9, 20, and 7 were the three --

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I got that 

part.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, were the 

three, and then Stu, I don't think is 

objecting to those, with the understanding --

and I'll include that kind of language in the 

final draft -- but with the understanding that 

we indicate that these results that are at 

least in part from the review of the first 100 
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1 cases.

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10 

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12 

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14 

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16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 So I think that -- I don't know 

that we're asking SC&A to do any further 

research on that item. It's mainly on the 

Quality Control section 1 is where we're 

asking for further work.

 MEMBER MUNN: Okay.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Go ahead, I'm

sorry.

 MEMBER MUNN: No, that's Alright. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The last thing 

and maybe as long as Doug is on the phone --

Doug, you put quite a bit of effort into 

looking for these Quality Control findings. 

Maybe you can describe a little more than what 

I just went through in the process and where 

we stand right now.

 You didn't circulate those to 

everyone, did you, or did you? I didn't

notice on the email.

 MEMBER MUNN: I didn't see them.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. So Doug 
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1 can go over those, and then we'll get those 

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1

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2

around for discussion with the Subcommittee. 

But at least Doug can discuss the process that 

he went through.

 MR. FARVER: Okay. Basically, we 

were tasked to look at the first eight cases 

or eight sets of cases and the findings 

involved. There are probably a little over 

700 findings for the first eight sets of 

cases. 

 What I did is I -- we pulled out 

the ones that we thought were quality-related, 

which is subjective. There were probably 208 

of those findings. Then I sorted those 

findings according to our Table 2 that we put 

in our audit reports, in that element of 

technical review. It has to do with photon 

doses or neutron doses.

 So I sorted that and got a 

distribution to see how the findings that we 

describe as quality findings relate to these 

technical elements. I came up with a 
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1 distribution, looked at those 208 findings and 

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9 

10 

11 

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14 

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18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

tried to pull out ones that I thought were, 

I'll call them obvious. Things like where the 

dose was missing for a year, a certain year. 

It was omitted for some reason. Because I 

thought those would probably be the easiest 

ones to track down.

 Out of those 208 findings, I 

pulled out 30 findings. I looked at those for 

ones that were kind of split along the 

distribution of the technical elements, and I 

came out with 10 cases. Some of those cases 

had more than one finding, quality-related 

finding. It worked out for about 23 findings 

out of those 10 cases.

 So that was kind of the process. 

Then Mark had some questions about what sites 

and if it was an overestimate or underestimate 

and so forth. I do have that information, so 

I'll go back and I'll modify that table and 

get it back to you, Mark. That's kind of the 

process.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, maybe 

2 

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20 

21 

22 

when you modify it, you can send -- you had 

two spreadsheets.

 MR. FARVER: I did.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: One with all 

208, and the next one had the ten final 

selected cases. If you can add in, like the 

site or the case -- only for the selected 

ones. I'm not asking for all of them, but for 

the selected ones, add in the site and whether 

it was an over, under or best estimate. Then 

circulate it to everyone, I think, would be a 

good process.

 MR. FARVER: Yes. One question 

that I'll ask you is in one case -- I think it 

was Tab 155. We had talked -- I suggested we 

might want to add that as an 11th case because 

it has some -- it has a finding about a 

neutron dose, which was kind of wacky from our 

other findings. 

 If you'd like, I'd add that 11th 

case, or we can just keep it at ten cases.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, maybe put 

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9 

10 

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20 

21 

22 

it in your table and then we can discuss it 

with the full Subcommittee once everybody sees 

all these. I think that would be -- so add it 

for now, and then we can pull it down if we 

decide to.

 MR. FARVER: I'll do so.

 MEMBER MUNN: Gentlemen, I have 

another question here. Doug indicated that he 

was looking at 208 findings from the first 

eight sets.

 My concern is that the document we 

have before us is specifically a follow-up on

the first 100 cases, which clearly, once we 

get past, what, the first three -- certainly 

past the fourth set -- we're well out of the 

first-100-case range.

 I guess my question is whether 

what we're doing with these identified cases 

is really topical or -- should be topical for 

this specific report that we're working on or 

whether we should change the categorization of 
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1 this report.

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19 

20 

21 

22 

 Did that question make sense?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Well, I 

guess it doesn't strictly fall under the 

title. We had this discussion at the last 

meeting.

 Actually, it was, I believe -- I 

don't want to put words in Stu's mouth, but I 

think part of the reasoning was it came from 

NIOSH to say that, well, if we don't have many 

best-estimate cases in that early, the first 

five sets of cases, which were the 100 cases.

 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But if we're 

going to get useful recommendations for NIOSH, 

Stu said maybe we should expand up to where 

we're currently -- I think Stu said this.

 But anyway, we had it in our 

discussions that maybe we should look further 

up to the ones that we're currently reviewing 

because I guess one thing we want to tease out 

of this Quality Control process is do we need 
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1 or does NIOSH need to have sort of a different 

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criteria for best-estimate cases versus overand underestimate cases.

 It seems like the threshold might 

be set a little higher when your best 

estimates -- because by definition, you're 

close to the 50th percentile or closer to the 

50th percentile so you want to, as Jim Neton 

often says, sharpen the pencil. So therefore, 

would we, by definition -- so that's sort of 

how it evolved, Wanda, into --

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. I understand 

that. But of course, that's what is covered 

in your comment after the first little table 

there, where it should be noted there were no 

best estimates cases in the first three sets.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

 MEMBER MUNN: It would appear to 

me that it would be a simple enough thing to 

complete that thought and say that we 

anticipate additional specific information to 

evolve from current activities reviewing the 
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1 QA/QC activities in later cases reviewed 

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22 

because either we're reporting on the first 

100 cases the way we did before or we're not.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That's a 

good point.

 MEMBER MUNN: It doesn't make much 

difference, but if we're going to call this a 

Second Status Report on the First 100 Cases, 

then we need to report on the first 100 cases.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's a 

good point. That's a good point.

 MEMBER MUNN: There's no shame in 

postponing further findings with respect to 

QA/QC to our next report.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right. 

That may call for -- that may add to your 

reasoning of submitting this report and then 

having another report to follow up on those 

because we -- yes, we can make a note of that, 

that we would have to hold off on specific 

recommendations for Quality Control because we 

wanted an opportunity to review cases that are 
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1 still under review.

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 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, that would seem 

the logical thing to do to me, since our first 

report was specifically on the first 100 

cases.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that is 

right. I was looking at our transcripts and 

that's how I came up with these first eight 

cases which we all kind of decided that that 

would make sense to do. But in terms of the 

report, you might be correct.

 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. I'm not 

speaking against doing it.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

 MEMBER MUNN: I think our action 

there was appropriate.

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Mark, this is 

Brad. I agree because I'm looking through this 

whole thing and it calls out the first 100 

cases in a spot there. It's kind of a little 

bit misleading, I think.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, no, that's 
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1 fine. We can -- that might make sense then. 

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I was trying to make -- I was trying to just 

end up with one report, but we might have to 

submit this and then, within the body of this 

report, offer that we would do a follow-up on 

the -- recommend to do a follow-up on the

Quality Control that would go beyond the first 

100 cases and therefore, we will report back 

to the Board on the findings of that 

investigation in a separate report.

 MEMBER CLAWSON: This is Brad 

again. I think in that statement, if you did 

that, just kind of putting a little bit of an 

explanation about the overestimates and 

underestimates and why we're doing it, I think 

it would make it a little bit clearer and 

easier to follow.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, okay. I 

think you're right. That's fine. We can do 

that, yes.

 MEMBER GIBSON: Mark, this is 

Mike. Didn't we have this conversation in one 
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1 of our Subcommittee meetings that we didn't 

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10 

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want the report to look too critical of OCAS 

on the first 100 because things have been 

changed since then? I think we were trying to 

incorporate all that into this letter to the 

Secretary, or am I wrong?

 MEMBER MUNN: I think your memory 

is correct in that regard, Mike. That's one 

of the things that I had in mind at the time 

that I was reviewing this and making my 

comments.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, my 

feeling is that it should be fair. I don't 

care if it's critical or not. I think it 

should reflect what's happened. I think there 

is a fair amount of positive changes that have 

resulted, so we certainly need to have those 

in the letter. I think you're right, Mike and 

Wanda.

 I think this is where we can -- we 

can certainly work on this letter. Is it the 

consensus, then, that we should -- I'll add 
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1 language to that first section to indicate 

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5 

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20 

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that we propose a further review of Quality 

Control but we recommend that it needs to go 

beyond the first 100 cases and here's why --

because we want to look at best-estimate as 

well as under- and overestimate-type cases. 

That will be reported on in a separate report 

if the Board wishes, you know, if the Board so 

directs. Then we can leave -- we can sort of 

defer that part of the follow-up to a separate 

report, a follow-up report.

 MEMBER MUNN: You can probably do 

that in a single sentence. 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

 MEMBER MUNN: The question is, I 

think, whether it's a follow-up report or 

whether it is a report on subsequent sets of 

cases. Certainly, we're not going to always 

limit our reports to the first 100 cases. We 

surely are going to go beyond that in future 

reports.

 So it would follow that reports on 
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1 later findings would be expected to have a 

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different set of recommendations.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right. 

Okay, I was just thinking if we -- okay, I 

think we can do that. I was thinking if we 

deferred that section completely, we might be 

able to wrap this report up because most other 

items we can, at least at some level, close 

them out.

 MEMBER CLAWSON: Mark, this is 

Brad. My personal opinion is that I would 

just put a statement in there that we're doing 

more than the first 100. 

 With this Quality, we've got to 

get a better basis for this. I'd just as soon 

leave this out right now. I'd get this letter 

to the Board and head out, you know, look at 

all of them.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, well, I 

don't know that we have to -- I think that's 

something to think about. I'm not sure we 

have to come to a conclusion today. We can 
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1 present it and maybe -- I mean, one thing I 

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want to ask the Board is that, you know, 

you've tasked us with this and we're 

recommending that SC&A do this follow-up. 

 How we split the follow up --

whether we ask them to look at the first 100 

cases for Quality Control and then go beyond 

for subsequent reports or whether we defer the 

whole item, we can -- I guess the first 

question is, is the Board still comfortable 

with going, you know.

 I think we need to go back to the 

Board and make sure we're going in the right 

direction and ask if this is okay and we'll 

extend this out if that's appropriate, if the 

Board feels it's appropriate and then go from 

there.

 But how to break it up, I'm not 

sure we have to -- I can see the merits of 

both, actually, so that's why I'm sort of 

hedging on this. I can see the utility of 

waiting and doing it all as one follow-up 
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1 investigation as well as having it split into 

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the first 100 cases.

 Do other people have thoughts on 

that?

 MEMBER MUNN: It would seem to me 

that the next report that we file should 

probably incorporate, probably, the first 200 

cases. At that time, anything that we had to 

say about the first 100 could be folded in 

very nicely.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's 

true. I was also thinking about the impact on 

this kind of -- the drill-down that we're 

proposing is to sort of go back to the dose 

reconstructors and investigate sort of why 

some of these Quality Control findings 

happened or what happened.

 Stu, do you have a sense of which 

sort of format would impact or from a time 

standpoint, from a cost standpoint, would 

impact the ORAU staff, the OCAS staff?

 MR. HINNEFELD: Between which two 
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1 formats?

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 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean, which are 

we talking about?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If we did the 

first -- if we just took the first five sets 

and looked at Quality Control cases for those 

and drilled down. See, I wasn't thinking of 

this as a -- I was thinking of this as a onetime exercise. That's why I was saying the 

first eight sets and then we can go back, as 

opposed to doing the first five sets and then, 

as Wanda said, if we do the next report on the 

first 200 cases, we'd want to go back and look 

again.

 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that, from 

our standpoint, if we go with the cases that 

Doug selected from which I think Ted shared 

with me. I think Ted got them and shared them 

with me, but I just opened them this morning.

 If we go with the ones that Doug 

selected and then maybe add a few more to go 
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1 on out through Case 200 at some point later, 

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what we would propose to do is we'll start on 

our tasks associated with all of them, and 

then we can, in summary, later on -- we can 

provide a product about what we conclude about 

the Cases 1 through 100 and what kind of 

causes we can find there, and then we could 

make that sort of a section of the report or 

an interim report, that we would probably just 

do all of the analysis so we would have the 

analysis in these claims also.

 If you are thinking about maybe 

adding -- I think there are, by my count, 

there are five cases and 11 findings on what 

Doug selected from the first 100 cases. So if 

you decide that's not enough and we want to do 

more for the first 100, well, clearly that's 

going to have more impact and have more costs 

on it so then we would have to do more for the 

first 100 than we would if we had stuck with 

this list.

 It's really, from my standpoint, I 
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1 would like to sort of embark on our work on 

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the cases that we know are going to be 

selected and pretty much right when they're 

selected -- if they're selected beyond the 

number that you're going to report on this, 

we'll focus our efforts on that. 

 But I suspect this work is going 

to be sort of broken up in a way that will 

just be convenient for us to just go through 

all the cases selected at a particular time 

and do those.

 If it's done later on, maybe if 

it's a recurring event, I wouldn't necessarily 

be terribly to that either -- you know, with 

selection now and then selection later. I 

wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that 

either.

 But I think that we may want to 

have some discussions with Doug and whoever 

else from SC&A about certain of these cases 

that are considered QCs, but before I do that, 

I really need to look at both the history and 
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1 the findings and all of the -- or some of the 

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findings before I get into that.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We can do that 

at the next meeting, yes.

 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Some of 

these, I'm not so sure I would categorize as a 

QC failure.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, okay. So 

it doesn't seem that it would impact you, as 

long as we assign -- the selection would be 

the key. It doesn't seem that we -- we could 

report it out as the first five sets and break 

out our reporting mechanism and it wouldn't 

impact you from a work standpoint.

 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think that 

would impact it.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, that's 

fine. We can probably do it that way, then, 

Wanda and Brad. I think you're both 

recommending that. We can format it that way.

 Okay, so are there other items --

I mean, Wanda sent comments and I think 
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1 they're mostly editorial, though -- Wanda, 

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right? -- and I'll certainly have those for 

when we do finalize the report. 

 But are there other items that you 

think need to be added to this report that we 

missed overall? That's the main thrust I want 

to get across at the next Board meeting and 

the verbal report back is the general field 

that we are 

including in this report and the sort of 

preliminary recommendation.

 MEMBER MUNN: I personally think 

your scope is pretty accurate.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. That's

good, and we'll work on the actual wording. I 

think that does make more sense to keep -- for 

people that are following this, it does make 

sense to word it as the follow-up report on 

the first 100 cases -- that we keep that 

section one to the first five sets, then.

 We'll work with SC&A and NIOSH at 

the next meeting on those tables that Doug 
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1 created and the selection and go into more 

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detail at the next meeting, next Subcommittee 

meeting on that. I believe that will be fine.

 Anything else on this? This is 

the only item on the agenda.

 MEMBER POSTON: Mark, if you have 

a copy, I've got two quick comments that Wanda 

missed.

 MEMBER MUNN: Impossible, 

impossible.

 MEMBER POSTON: It's possible. On 

the first page, it should be scientific, not 

scientifically.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Where is that? 

What line is that? Factors in assuring the 

scientific. Yes.

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, 

scientifically validity. That's good.

 MEMBER POSTON: And then in your 

table, we were talking about the best 

estimates.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

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 MEMBER POSTON: So when I went to 

school nine plus nine was 18, not 17.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Good point. 

That's SC&A's table, I should make a note on 

that, John. That wasn't my math there, was 

it, Kathy? No, I'm just teasing.

 MS. BEHLING: No. I noticed that 

also. No, 17 is correct. The fifth set 

should have eight best-estimate QAs.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, so 17. 

The math was right but the number was --

Alright. We'll take that.

 MR. HINNEFELD: I might note that 

Brant has noted that that is a QC problem.

 MEMBER POSTON: That's all I had. 

I looked at Wanda's comments. I think she got 

them all.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We'll make a 

note of that as a QC follow-up, too.

 That's really it. I just wanted 

to have this just so we don't lose track of 
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1 where we're at on this report, too. That was 

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the main reason for this phone call. I'll do 

a verbal report on our status, kind of, and I 

guess that's it.

 MR. KATZ: Mark?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes?

 MR. KATZ: Hi. It's Ted. But why 

don't we try to book the next DRR Subcommittee 

meeting while we're all on the phone.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, I knew 

you were going to do that, Ted. People have 

their calendars.

 MR. HINNEFELD: Mark, before we do 

that, there's one thing not related to this, 

but I did this morning. We had one action on 

the sixth set finding, 107.4, from the last 

Subcommittee meeting, which I sent to the 

Subcommittee members just this morning.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I saw. I 

didn't even open your email yet, but I did see 

the email.

 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that 
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1 closes finally, for sure, the sixth set, I 

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think.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I 

haven't had a chance to look at it. I don't 

know if you're proposing that we discuss it 

now?

 MR. HINNEFELD: No, no. I just 

want to make sure everybody knows that they 

got it. I don't think that it's going to 

warrant a lot of discussion, to be completely 

honest with you.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

 MEMBER POSTON: Stu, I've got my 

email open. I haven’t received anything from 

you today.

 MR. HINNEFELD: You did not get it 

in your CDC account.

 MEMBER POSTON: I don't ever go to

--

 MR. HINNEFELD: If Ted tells me 

to, I'll re-send it. He always tells me we 

should send things to the CDC account.
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1 MR. KATZ: You're doing well, Stu. 

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That's fine.

 MEMBER POSTON: It doesn't clutter 

up my box that way. That's fine.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, yes, 

that's great, Stu. I'm glad you did that, 

though, because we do want to close the sixth 

set. That would be nice. Hopefully, that 

will be first item on the next meeting that 

we'll look at that and close out the sixth 

set.

 Anything else? Any other business 

for today other than the calendar?

 Alright, I guess we can turn to 

the calendar. Ted, you have a better sense of 

the overall schedule.

 MR. KATZ: I wouldn't suggest 

trying to meet before the Board meeting 

because that's cutting it close and there's a 

lot of other stuff going on.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No.

 MR. KATZ: But we're already --
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1 we're pretty clear at this time. We don't 

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have any other work group meetings scheduled 

following the Board meeting. My schedule is 

pretty open. Beginning, in other words, the 

week of Presidents Day, which is the week of 

the 15th of February, those few weeks after 

the Board meeting, to me, are wide open. It's 

just up to the rest of you.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think a lot 

of it is up to Stu as far as the seventh and 

eighth set. I don't want to schedule 

something too soon after the Board meeting. I 

assume that you have quite a lot of work 

leading up to the Board meeting in the next 

couple weeks.

 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we have a lot 

leading to the Board meeting. It would be 

hard for us to show much additional progress 

by any date in February. The week of February 

20, I'm on vacation. February 22, I'm on 

vacation.

 MR. KATZ: Okay.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I would rather go 

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at least mid-March and maybe even later in 

March and then we can try to direct ORAU to 

get some resources on this. Like this time, 

we can then notify everybody if there's too 

much else going on.

 I think they're all aware that 

we're trying to make sure that we finish all 

the claims that are a year old by June 1. 

That takes a lot of effort because a lot of 

sites need to be researched in addition to 

doing the claims that we already know how to 

do. That's taking a lot of effort, and 

there's not a lot of manpower to spare, but we 

might be able to have something by mid- to 

late March that we might be able to talk 

about.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How about March 

23rd or March 25th? That's two possibilities.

 MEMBER POSTON: Twenty what?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: March 23rd or

March 25th.
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1 MEMBER POSTON: I can do it on the 

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25th in the afternoon.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 25th. Well, it 

would probably be an all-day in Cincinnati, 

John.

 MEMBER POSTON: Okay. I have 

class on that day, and on the 23rd, I'm in 

Washington.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How about the -

- you have classes every Thursday?

 MEMBER POSTON: Yes, Thursday.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. 

 MR. KATZ: What about the 22nd, 

that Monday? It doesn't work?

 MEMBER POSTON: I haven't made my 

travel arrangements, but I'm going to 

Washington that afternoon. 

 MEMBER MUNN: It's easier to get 

there from Cincinnati.

 MR. KATZ: I was just thinking 

that maybe John could travel out to Cincinnati 

for Monday and then travel Monday night out to 
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1 Washington.

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22 

 MEMBER POSTON: I'll look into 

that.

 MR. KATZ: I don't know if that 

works for the rest of the Work Group and Stu 

and everyone else.

 MEMBER MUNN: Is there any problem 

with the 24th? Why did you leave that one 

out, Mark?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Because that's 

a conflict for me.

 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. That's a good 

reason to leave it out.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, the 

26th is okay with me, too, but I don't know 

about -- some people travel farther than I do, 

so I was trying to avoid the Friday.

 MEMBER MUNN: Any time that week, 

currently, is open for me.

 MEMBER GIBSON: That week seems to 

work for me.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Why don't we 
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1 say the 22nd, then? Why don't we book the 

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22 

22nd for now and if something drastic comes 

up, we still have a little time to move it.

 MEMBER MUNN: Okay.

 MR. KATZ: Okay, I'll do it, then, 

March 22nd. You want a 9:30 a.m. start time?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that would 

be great. In Cincy.

 MR. KATZ: In Cincy. Will do.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. 

 MEMBER POSTON: We're going to do 

this in Cincinnati?

 MR. KATZ: Yes.

 MEMBER POSTON: Okay.

 MR. KATZ: John, if that's really 

a problem, you can also call in.

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You can call 

in, yes.

 MEMBER POSTON: I think I can make 

that, the 22nd. I'll just come up on Sunday.

 MR. KATZ: Right, that's what I'll 

be doing, too.
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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER POSTON: I'm not a 

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government employee. I don't mind traveling.

 MR. KATZ: I am a government 

employee, and I travel a lot on Sundays.

 MR. HINNEFELD: Ted and I have 

been known to travel on Sundays.

 MEMBER POSTON: I think I touched 

a nerve.

 MEMBER MUNN: Indeed. Indeed.

 MR. KATZ: Are we adjourned, Mark?

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think we're

adjourned, yes. Thank you all for calling in.

 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter concluded at 10:42 a.m.)