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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION

+ + + + +

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

SAFETY AND HEALTH

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND WORKER

HEALTH

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON WORKER OUTREACH

+ + + + +

TUESDAY, JUNE 16, 2009

+ + + + +

HEBRON, KENTUCKY

+ + + + +

 The workgroup convened in the

Zurich Board Room at the Cincinnati Airport

Marriott, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron,

Kentucky at 9:30 a.m., Michael H. Gibson,

Chair, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

 MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Chair

 JOSIE BEACH

 WANDA I. MUNN

 PHILLIP SCHOFIELD*
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IDENTIFIED MEMBERS PRESENT:

 THEODORE M. KATZ, Acting Designated

 Federal Official

 TERRIE BARRIE, Petitioner*

 LORI BREYER, NIOSH ORAU

 DOROTHY CLAYTON, Petitioner*

 MARY ELLIOTT, NIOSH ORAU

 JOHN FUNK, Petitioner and

 Representative*

 J. J. JOHNSON, NIOSH ORAU

 BONNIE KLEA, Petitioner*

 MARK LEWIS, ATL International

 ARJUN MAKHIJANI, SC&A*

 JOHN MAURO, SC&A*

 VERN McDOUGALL, NIOSH ORAU

 MICHAEL RAFKY, HHS*

 KATHY ROBERTSON-DEMERS, SC&A

 MARY JO ZACCHERO, NIOSH ORAU

 ABE ZEITOUN, SC&A

*Present via teleconference.
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

ITEM PAGE

Discussion of the Worker Outreach.......... 8

Objectives

NIOSH Outreach Tracking System........... 105

 

List of Outreach Activities.............. 161

Workers, Claimants, Representatives,..... 206

and Advocates

 John Funk.......................... 206

 Dorothy Clayton.................... 213

 Terrie Barrie...................... 221

 Bonnie Klea........................ 230

Defining the Mission Statement........... 253

Scheduling Next Meeting.................. 283

Adjourn
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:25 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: This is the Advisory 

4 Board of Radiation Worker Health. It is the 

5 Worker Outreach Workgroup. And we are getting 

6 started now. Let's start by taking roll call, 

7 as usual, with Board members in the room.

8 Chair?

9 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Mike Gibson, 

10 Chair of the workgroup.

11 MEMBER BEACH: Josie Beach, Board

12 member.

13 MEMBER MUNN: Wanda Munn, Board 

14 member.

15 MR. KATZ: And checking on the 

16 line, do we have Phil Schofield?

17 (No response.)

18 MR. KATZ: Okay. It is a little 

19 early out there.

20 And NIOSH ORAU team in the room?

21 MR. JOHNSON: J. J. Johnson.

22 MS. BREYER: Lori Breyer.
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1 MR. KATZ: And NIOSH ORAU team, 

2 any on the phone?

3 (No response.)

4 MR. KATZ: Okay. SC&A in the 

5 room?

6 MR. ZEITOUN: Abe Zeitoun.

7 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Kathy 

8 Robertson-Demers.

9 MR. KATZ: And then on the line, 

10 do we have any SC&A team?

11 (No response.)

12 MR. KATZ: And then?

13 MR. McDOUGALL: Vern McDougall.

14 MS. ELLIOTT: Mary Elliott.

15 MR. KATZ: As part of the NIOSH 

16 ORAU team.

17 MR. LEWIS: Mark Lewis, ATL 

18 International.

19 MR. KATZ: Sorry?

20 MR. LEWIS: ATL International, 

21 Mark Lewis.

22 MR. KATZ: Right, part of the 
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1 NIOSH ORAU, team. Okay. And then let's see. 

2 Do we have any people from the public in the 

3 room?

4 (No response.)

5 MR. KATZ: The record will show 

6 that Larry Elliott has just joined us from 

7 OCAS. And any members of the public on the 

8 line?

9 (No response.)

10 MR. KATZ: Okay, then. Is there 

11 anyone on the line?

12 MR. RAFKY: Ted, this Michael 

13 Rafky from HHS.

14 MR. KATZ: Michael. Right, right. 

15 So I'm sorry. I left out federal. Other 

16 federal employees: HHS and otherwise?

17 COURT REPORTER: His name again, 

18 please?

19 MR. KATZ: Michael Rafky. That's 

20 HHS. Any other federal employees or 

21 contractors?

22 MR. MAURO: This is John Mauro, 
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1 SC&A. I just called in. Have you asked for 

2 SC&A callers yet?

3 MR. KATZ: I did. Welcome, John.

4 MR. MAURO: Okay.

5 MR. KATZ: Is anyone else on the 

6 line?

7 (No response.)

8 MR. KATZ: Okay, then. So 

9 everyone on the line, if you are there, please 

10 mute your phone except when you are addressing 

11 the group. Use *6 if you don't have a mute 

12 button. And use *6 again to come back on to 

13 speak.

14 And, Mike, it's all yours.

15 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. Good 

16 morning, everyone. Thanks for attending the 

17 meeting. Does everyone have a copy of the 

18 agenda? Does anyone need a copy?

19 (No response.)

20 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: As you can see, 

21 we have a pretty much full day laid out ahead 

22 of us. So we'll just get started here on the 
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1 first item, Discussion of the Worker Outreach 

2 Objectives, Including the Elements of the 

3 Worker Outreach Program. Larry or NIOSH, do 

4 you want to open with that or --

5 DISCUSSION OF THE WORKER OUTREACH OBJECTIVES

6 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, sure. I 

7 believe I covered this ground before in a 

8 prior meeting, but I can certainly go over it 

9 again.

10 Essentially in our Worker Outreach

11 Program, we have various ways that we attempt 

12 to communicate with workers as well as take 

13 information in from workers.

14 One of those ways is a special 

15 exposure cohort counselor and the Ombudsman's 

16 Office for NIOSH reach out to SEC petitioners, 

17 potential SEC people who are interested in 

18 perhaps filing a petition. And so, you know, 

19 they work with those folks at whole town hall 

20 meetings to assist and recruit and support 

21 petitioner efforts.

22 Within the development of site 
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1 profiles, technical basis documents, and in 

2 SEC evaluation efforts, our support 

3 contractor, ATL, helps us identify worker 

4 representatives from the facility in question 

5 to assist us in understanding what happened at 

6 that facility, how the work was performed and 

7 what exposure potentials might have existed 

8 there.

9 And so those efforts are really 

10 confined to focus groups primarily, small 

11 invited participants -- number of 

12 participants, to deal with the history or 

13 issues that are being raised that we would 

14 like to know more about, have more information 

15 on. Can those individuals who actually work 

16 at that facility during that time frame help 

17 us with a better understanding of the 

18 exposures?

19 We open our site profiles, 

20 technical basis documents, up to the public on 

21 the website. And we encourage public as well 

22 as workers to make comment on those.
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1 So that is another avenue of 

2 input, worker input, worker outreach. We tell 

3 people when we are out in the field, when we 

4 hold town hall meetings, or we have these 

5 focus groups that they are able to comment on 

6 our technical basis documents through the 

7 NIOSH Docket Office. And their comments are 

8 posted there.

9 And so that is another opportunity 

10 and another way that we reach out to workers 

11 or we reach out to the public to gain input to 

12 explain what it is that we're doing and what 

13 our products really are designed to serve.

14 So I probably have left out a few. 

15 I would ask J. J. or Lori or Vern to help 

16 fill in the cracks here. But essentially, you 

17 know, DOL, I think I need to say that DOL, has 

18 within its authority and responsibility under 

19 the Act to provide the outreach for soliciting 

20 claims. And NIOSH does not have that.

21 So our Outreach Program is really 

22 constructed and contained so that it helps 
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1 focus our understanding better on our work and 

2 how we can do that work better for the 

3 claimant.

4 So we're not out there recruiting 

5 claims. That's DOL's job. We do assist DOL. 

6 We do participate in their town hall meetings 

7 when invited, when asked to explain our role, 

8 to explain our work in this program.

9 We have public health advisers 

10 attend board meetings, schedule appointments 

11 with claimants so that we have an opportunity 

12 to hear another side of the story perhaps that 

13 we can get their input on their dose 

14 reconstruction or the process that they're 

15 experiencing. So that's another way that we 

16 reach out to the public.

17 Help me out, guys. Have I covered 

18 the bases?

19 MS. BREYER: I think you got it.

20 MR. JOHNSON: It is complete.

21 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Kathy or Abe, do 

22 you want to talk about what SC&A's lists are 
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1 and what your visions are?

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

3 Kathy Demers. It was my understanding from 

4 the last worker outreach meeting that we 

5 needed to define a mission for this Working 

6 Group and then take it to the full Advisory 

7 Board.

8 So what SC&A did was to attempt to 

9 put together a draft mission statement. I 

10 don't know if everybody got a copy.

11 It was also my understanding that 

12 this was not supposed to be the only input, 

13 but we were supposed to get input from NIOSH 

14 and the Working Group.

15 But basically Mike recommended 

16 that a Working Group on worker outreach be 

17 formed at the February 7th through 9th, 2007 

18 Advisory Board meeting. And the actual 

19 initiation of the Worker Outreach Program took 

20 place in October of 2003. That was the first 

21 discussion of having public comments included 

22 in the NIOSH program.
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1 And if I can just kind of go over 

2 what was said at that meeting, I think that, 

3 Mike, you had a couple of different objectives 

4 when you made the motion to put together this 

5 group.

6 And that was to review the NIOSH 

7 outreach activities, including the 

8 organization of outreach meetings. It was to 

9 monitor the conduct of those meetings. And it 

10 was to monitor the impact of the public input 

11 on dose reconstruction site profiles and other 

12 technical documents if I've summarized that 

13 correctly.

14 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Yes.

15 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And there 

16 have been two worker outreach procedures that 

17 have been put out by NIOSH. One was ORAU 

18 OTIB-0097, which is now obsolete. And that 

19 walked you through the process, scheduling 

20 through response of public comments. And in 

21 that procedure, those comments were captured 

22 in a database called WISPR, which also was 
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1 discontinued in late 2006.

2 Recently -- and jump in, J. J. and 

3 Larry -- NIOSH released OCAS procedure 12, 

4 which defines the Worker Outreach Program.

5 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Okay. I am on 

6 the line now, Josie.

7 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Phil.

8 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Thanks, Ted.

9 MR. KATZ: That's Phil Schofield, 

10 for the record, Board member.

11 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And there 

12 was a little bit of a shift in the definition 

13 of worker outreach from the old procedure to 

14 the new procedure, that being that the old 

15 procedure concentrated on site profiles and 

16 worker input before completing a site profile 

17 and then a roll-out meeting after the site 

18 profile was completed.

19 Now, it's my understanding that 

20 there is really a new direction in worker 

21 outreach with the new procedure and that there 

22 are now four types of meetings. One consists 
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1 of worker outreach focus groups, SEC worker 

2 outreach focus group meetings, worker outreach 

3 town hall meetings, and SEC outreach meetings. 

4 Now, you can kind of divide these two types 

5 of meetings into information-gathering and 

6 information-giving. NIOSH, jump in if I'm --

7 MR. ELLIOTT: You are fine.

8 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: --

9 misstating anything. And with this new 

10 procedure, there was an implementation of a 

11 new database, the outreach-tracking system, 

12 which I am not quite sure what the status of 

13 access to that is.

14 But this new database allows for 

15 not only -- well, first of all, it allows for 

16 scheduling of the meetings and it is my 

17 understanding distribution or communication to 

18 people about those meetings and then also 

19 action items that come out of that, those 

20 meetings.

21 Now, we do not have access to that 

22 database at the present time. So I don't know 
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1 too many details about it.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, we are 

3 prepared to share where we are at with that 

4 database. It's ready to show and access is --

5 we haven't had an address because we've been 

6 developing it and putting it all together and 

7 putting it in place.

8 And then I think the other part of 

9 access is where things are at on this IT 

10 security situation and giving you access to 

11 all of these things, but you are certainly 

12 going to have access to it.

13 So I would add for clarification 

14 that we have always had an attitude at NIOSH 

15 and OCAS about worker outreach and input. It 

16 is not that we have just seen a shift in our 

17 attitude or our philosophy about that.

18 The first procedure that you 

19 talked about, Kathy, was an ORAU-developed 

20 procedure to assist and aid them in the 

21 development of technical basis documents. And 

22 there was a campaign to put as many documents 
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1 together as we possibly could.

2 With the advent of working through 

3 the bulk of that effort, we wanted to shift. 

4 If there was a shift, we wanted to shift at 

5 NIOSH. We wanted to see the shift from just 

6 that solely at ORAU to more -- a broader 

7 effort to reach out to workers and get them 

8 employed. We also saw the need to separate 

9 the ORAU effort a little bit and have another 

10 party, ATL, come to bear and assist in that 

11 regard.

12 So I just want for clarification, 

13 not that you were wrong in any way. I just 

14 want to share that kind of background and 

15 history of how we came to be where we're at 

16 today.

17 MEMBER MUNN: That was what was 

18 referred to earlier as OTIB-0097.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes.

20 MEMBER MUNN: That was PROC-097, 

21 right?

22 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. Procedure 97 
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1 --

2 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. That's what 

3 was you were just talking about.

4 MR. ELLIOTT: Right. Procedure 97 

5 was developed by ORAU to assist them --

6 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

7 MR. ELLIOTT: -- in working 

8 through the development of a number of 

9 technical basis documents.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Right. And it's now 

11 morphed into other documents.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. We wanted to 

13 see the outreach not only speak to that but be 

14 broader and demonstrate what we had all along 

15 felt we were doing with our outreach effort.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

17 MR. ELLIOTT: And certainly, you 

18 know, in 2003, the SEC component wasn't in 

19 place. In 2004, it was. And so it's these 

20 kind of events that took place over the course 

21 of time that aided us in the evolution of what 

22 we are now or what we --
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1 MEMBER MUNN: -- have to change.

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, in 

3 defining a mission statement, there are a 

4 couple of questions that have to be answered. 

5 And that is, what is our purpose for doing 

6 worker outreach? What is worker outreach? 

7 What various elements is it going to include?

8 And I believe we tried to capture 

9 what NIOSH has said in the last meeting as far 

10 as what they considered worker outreach 

11 methods to be on page 3 of the mission 

12 statement, which might be helpful if I go 

13 through that: brochures, CATI interviews, 

14 close-out interviews, dose reconstruction 

15 workshops, fact sheets, Federal Register 

16 notices, online chats, which were at the time 

17 coming.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: They are not coming 

19 now.

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: I think Lori can 

22 speak to that. We have run into a roadblock 
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1 on that one. 

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Public 

3 comment sessions at advisory board meetings, 

4 site profile worker outreach meetings, SEC 

5 worker outreach meetings, small focus groups, 

6 town meetings, and then the website. And then 

7 you also mentioned soliciting, encouraging 

8 people to provide comments on the site 

9 profile, and then posting to the website. 

10 That was --

11 MR. ELLIOTT: That is through the 

12 Docket Office.

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: That was 

14 what we had come up with as a list of the 

15 various components of worker outreach. We 

16 felt like any communication with the workers 

17 fell into worker outreach.

18 MR. ZEITOUN: I believe that was 

19 correct to base our -- general meeting, we 

20 agreed that communication is the whole 

21 concept. I would like to add something to the 

22 mission statement here, based on the direction 
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1 we get from Mike, is to be sure that we have a 

2 proper definition of what the outreach is all 

3 about because outreach can be divided into 

4 many aspects.

5 And we felt that the purpose of 

6 this is we have to have an understanding among 

7 all the parties, especially for the Board, is 

8 what do we define outreach because my 

9 definition is different than many other 

10 people.

11 And based on the January meeting, 

12 we came with that definition that was really 

13 acceptable to everybody. And we include it in 

14 here as part of your work. Is that right?

15 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Identify --

17 MR. ELLIOTT: I'm sorry. I think 

18 you captured it because we agree --

19 MR. ZEITOUN: Right.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: -- that 

21 communication --

22 MR. ZEITOUN: Communications is 
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1 the aspects of -- and in the meantime we'll 

2 know exactly where we are heading and what is 

3 said, instead of just we are doing a meeting, 

4 because we need to know what was said and how 

5 we resolve the issue internally among 

6 ourselves, similar to data when we review data 

7 and review something.

8 Outreach is also, and the inputs 

9 that we get from the public is also a factor 

10 in developing NIOSH documents, NIOSH views, 

11 NIOSH understanding of how the dose 

12 reconstruction is made. So now it is an 

13 integral element of development of the 

14 program.

15 And that's exactly what the 

16 January meeting was very instrumental in 

17 directing all of us. That's how the mission 

18 was based.

19 MEMBER BEACH: Well, and I just 

20 briefly reviewed the new procedure 12. 

21 Wouldn't the statement be in this procedure? 

22 Wouldn't that be a place to find it or --
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1 MR. ZEITOUN: Statement of what?

2 MEMBER BEACH: Of what the mission 

3 is.

4 MR. ZEITOUN: Actually, the 

5 mission is just new.

6 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

7 MR. ZEITOUN: You just developed 

8 --

9 MEMBER BEACH: Or the definition.

10 MR. ZEITOUN: The definition would 

11 be -- you see, you have to remember that the 

12 document that the procedure -- I mean, I am 

13 speaking for my reviewing it, the initial 

14 review of the procedure. The procedure is out 

15 for review right now, practically. We will 

16 look at it. The Board authorized will look at 

17 it.

18 And probably we are going to come 

19 to a middle ground of exactly what is needed 

20 to be done. And we come from a unified 

21 position that is what we want to do, that is 

22 what we are going to go with, and this is your 
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1 mission. And the procedure -- NIOSH agrees 

2 with the concept -- we will include it as part 

3 of the procedure.

4 That is true the procedure did not 

5 include a definition by definition as we are 

6 talking, but -- it is really easy to fix.

7 MR. ELLIOTT: We can fix that.

8 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes, yes, correct.

9 MS. BREYER: I think when we're 

10 talking about communication as well, I mean, 

11 if you're looking at it as the overall 

12 everything we do with claimants and 

13 petitioners and you also have to include 

14 letters, phone calls, and e-mails in this list 

15 because there is a lot of that, and then we're 

16 also going to need to divide it in 

17 communication that occurs as part of the dose 

18 reconstruction process, such as CATIs and 

19 close-out interviews, because that is 

20 completely different than a workgroup meeting 

21 or an SEC outreach meeting.

22 So then you have the part that I 
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1 think is communications that are involved in 

2 your processing of dose reconstructions or 

3 claims. And then you have everyday type of 

4 communication, phone calls, acknowledgement 

5 packets, close-out letters, CATIs.

6 It happens with everybody. Every 

7 single person who files a claim or is a 

8 claimant will go through those types of 

9 communication as well as a separate category 

10 for communication that occurs that is listed 

11 in the four types of outreach that NIOSH 

12 conducts. I think it would be unwise, in my 

13 opinion, to lump it all together.

14 I think there are distinct types 

15 of communication that occur for different 

16 reasons. What we consider outreach or that we 

17 talk about as the four types of outreach, such 

18 as town hall meetings, SEC outreach meetings, 

19 workgroup meetings, or, you know -- I can't 

20 remember the other one off the top of my head. 

21 Those types are things where we feel like 

22 there's a need or that people have asked us, 
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1 "Hey, we have a need for more information" and 

2 we set up unique types of events for that to 

3 reach a purpose.

4 Then the other communication 

5 pieces are things that are done from the 

6 beginning of every claim that every claimant 

7 is going to get. It's not any kind of unique 

8 type of communication created for a purpose. 

9 It's something that originally was decided 

10 that will be part of the procedure to help 

11 people understand the process.

12 So I think if we're going to look 

13 at it as all-encompassing, outreach being 

14 something that means everything, any the kind 

15 of communication that we have with the public, 

16 I think it needs to be narrowed down into 

17 categories at least. I don't think lumping 

18 them together would be the best way to move 

19 forward with that.

20 MR. MAURO: This is John Mauro. I 

21 am having a little trouble hearing, but I am 

22 listening carefully. I would like to add to 
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1 what you just said.

2 I know that Denise Brock works 

3 very closely with SEC petitioners in helping 

4 them through the qualification process. And 

5 there is a lot of interaction there. There is 

6 a lot of correspondence that NIOSH provides. 

7 So that is another dimension.

8 So I agree that the range of 

9 interactions with petitioners, claimants, site 

10 experts, members of the public is quite 

11 extensive and diverse, each aspect having a 

12 somewhat different objective and how it's 

13 done.

14 And this is just to sort of stir 

15 the pot a lot a little bit. The question is 

16 that this is all ongoing. And I think that 

17 your new procedure tries to lay out the range 

18 of these types of activities. It does not 

19 capture all of them.

20 For example, the one I just 

21 mentioned I don't believe is described in your 

22 procedure. And there is no doubt that one of 
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1 the roles that the Board plays is to review 

2 procedures.

3 And certainly this is a new 

4 procedure. And, in theory, this is something 

5 that could be reviewed as part of the 

6 procedural reviews, perhaps relegated to this 

7 workgroup as just being a review of a 

8 procedure and many of the issues that we are 

9 talking about in terms of scope of the 

10 procedure and what it should address.

11 What I am getting at, though, is 

12 that I think given the enormity of NIOSH's 

13 interactions with members of the public in 

14 various capacities, including claimants, 

15 petitioners, site experts, the question that I 

16 guess is before us, what role should the Board 

17 play? Given the enormity of what is going on 

18 at NIOSH, what role would be most beneficial 

19 to the overall program for the Board to play 

20 and, of course, this workgroup is for the 

21 Board?

22 I think that the three items 
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1 identified in the draft mission statement that 

2 has been distributed, items 1, 2, and 3, which 

3 Kathy just summarized, really go to the heart 

4 of this question.

5 So to me I think one of the things 

6 that, really, we could benefit from at this 

7 meeting is to see if we all view the role that 

8 the Board might want to play in this program 

9 -- and, quite frankly, I use the word how 

10 intrusive and how involved would the Board get 

11 in reviewing, having some commentary, 

12 oversight in all of these myriad of 

13 activities, each one of which would be 

14 somewhat different.

15 And I agree. I think that is 

16 really the big question. Given the mission 

17 statement, there is quite a bit that the Board 

18 would be doing in terms of reviewing and being 

19 involved in not only the procedures but the 

20 way in which the procedures are being 

21 implemented and not only the aspects of 

22 outreach that are captured in your current 
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1 PROC-012 but also perhaps other interactions 

2 that are not identified, such as the one I 

3 mentioned before.

4 So I think there are some really 

5 very important questions that are before us 

6 that the workgroup -- I'm offering this up as 

7 -- engage in a discussion of how involved 

8 should the Board be in independently 

9 evaluating not only the procedures and the 

10 program but actually how it is conducted and 

11 its effectiveness. These are tough questions.

12 MEMBER MUNN: John, this is Wanda. 

13 You have touched on something that is or 

14 should be a major concern of this workgroup. 

15 And that is defining the difference between 

16 communication and outreach.

17 If by outreach we are talking 

18 about all communication that goes on at any 

19 point throughout the natural operation of the 

20 process, then we are getting into far deeper 

21 water than it is likely that the Board can 

22 deal with well.
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1 If we are talking about outreach, 

2 one of the things that needs to occur with 

3 this mission statement in my view is a very 

4 clear distinction between outreach and 

5 communication in the normal process of events.

6 Whether one reacts to input from a 

7 claimant during their CATI interview as being 

8 a part of an outreach program is questionable, 

9 frankly.

10 Following the three items that 

11 were defined here in the first statement of 

12 this draft -- I'm assuming this is a draft 

13 mission statement and that's why we're looking 

14 at it.

15 It might behoove us to spend a 

16 little time as a workgroup becoming crystal 

17 clear on the difference between communication 

18 with workers and a worker outreach program or 

19 whether the label that is being applied to 

20 this workgroup is inadequate.

21 If the intention of the workgroup 

22 is to monitor communications with the Agency, 
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1 then that is quite different than outreach 

2 activities.

3 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: I kind of see 

4 that communication and outreach are kind of 

5 hand in hand, but I do kind of agree with what 

6 Lori said, that there are individual-type 

7 communications that go on with NIOSH and 

8 folks, and then there is also maybe individual 

9 communications.

10 But it's kind of a common-cause, 

11 if you will, type communication that goes to 

12 the site profile or something else, as opposed 

13 to an individual dose reconstruction. Is that 

14 kind of a fair way to --

15 MS. BREYER: Well, I mean, I think 

16 if we're going to do it broad, you have to 

17 categorize it. I don't think we can just have 

18 a lump thing. I understand the argument that 

19 all communication can be considered outreach, 

20 but I also agree with Wanda that there are 

21 different types of communication.

22 I mean, is a workgroup on 
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1 outreach, if it is this broad, and it's 

2 everything that we communicate with claimants? 

3 Then it's really the workgroup on OCAS 

4 communication plans because, you know, 

5 communication can be if we had a hundred calls 

6 in a month, people calling and asking about 

7 the status of their claim or I get calls 

8 people saying they want to file an SEC 

9 petition.

10 That's not really me doing an 

11 outreach meeting. That's not me going and 

12 meeting with people. That's people contacting 

13 us. That's how NIOSH chooses to handle this. 

14 How do we respond to e-mails, how to respond 

15 to phone calls. Providing a brochure and 

16 putting on our --

17 MEMBER MUNN: That's standard 

18 process.

19 MS. BREYER: Providing a brochure 

20 or an acknowledgment packet and putting it on 

21 our website is a way to communicate 

22 information to people about the program. It's 
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1 not really to explain -- I mean, it explains 

2 the dose reconstruction process, and it 

3 explains what steps dose reconstruction is 

4 going to go through.

5 But those are communication 

6 pieces. To me that's not necessarily worker 

7 outreach. Worker outreach to me is kind of 

8 the things that we defined as holding SEC 

9 outreach meetings, having worker meetings when 

10 we need information on site profiles.

11 You know, a lot of the basic 

12 pieces of communication we have are 

13 communication products intended to provide 

14 information, which I think is different than 

15 other types of worker outreach, which can be 

16 specified in different ways.

17 You know, if you're going to take 

18 a broad perspective, I don't know that that is 

19 all worker outreach. I define worker outreach 

20 to be going above and beyond the basic 

21 communication products that the OCAS 

22 communication team has developed to put out to 
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1 help people to understand the program when 

2 they file a claim or when they call to ask 

3 about the status of a claim, which is a lot 

4 different than developing a site profile, you 

5 know.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: I think that we have 

7 an Outreach Program. I wouldn't label it 

8 strictly a Worker Outreach Program because we 

9 reach out to claimants. We reach out to 

10 petitioners.

11 So maybe it would help if the OCAS 

12 folks set in categories perhaps that Lori is 

13 talking about those that we see as outreach 

14 efforts. And certainly our communications 

15 within each of those can be examined or 

16 evaluated, whatever.

17 But I think that in each type of 

18 outreach that we effect, one that I didn't 

19 talk about this morning was our workshops. I 

20 don't know how you let me get by without 

21 talking about this, but we're having another 

22 workshop coming up shortly. We had one in 
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1 March after the last meeting we had. I don't 

2 think we have had any Board participation, 

3 Board monitoring of that. So that's the type 

4 of outreach.

5 And the communication that goes 

6 into that is focused, and it's developed for 

7 that particular workshop. We've got this one 

8 that's coming up in September is focused a 

9 little bit more heavily toward, as I 

10 understand it, the former workers' screening 

11 program staff and making sure that they 

12 understand what it is that NIOSH does in this 

13 Compensation Program.

14 MEMBER BEACH: So, Larry, is that 

15 more of a you giving them information or you 

16 soliciting information?

17 MR. ELLIOTT: The Workshop is 

18 really a two-way street.

19 MEMBER BEACH: It is a two-way 

20 street?

21 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, it's a two-way 

22 street because we tell them what we think they 
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1 need to know about our obligations and our 

2 responsibilities. And at the same time, the 

3 benefit of it being two-way is we have had SEC 

4 petitions come out of it.

5 Lori has attended and walked away. 

6 And she knows five people that she is going 

7 to talk to next week to establish an SEC 

8 petition. We have heard issues about our 

9 reports that we have taken back and said, 

10 "Well, let's make a correction because we 

11 heard this at the Workshop. They don't 

12 understand this language" or "They don't 

13 follow what was said there." So it's a 

14 two-way street.

15 MEMBER BEACH: Well, for me --

16 MR. ELLIOTT: That's why we are 

17 called a Workshop, rather than a meeting.

18 MEMBER BEACH: Right. And if you 

19 are giving information about the program but 

20 then you get information from whoever is at 

21 the meeting and you are actually taking notes 

22 on certain things about certain sites, those 
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1 are the things that I would be interested in 

2 or this workgroup should be interested in, not 

3 programmatic things but site information.

4 If you get an e-mail from a 

5 claimant or a worker on site and that e-mail 

6 contains information that might be used in a 

7 site profile or in an ER report, those are 

8 things that this workgroup should be 

9 interested in.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: Sure.

11 MEMBER BEACH: And those are the 

12 things that we need to be tracking and seeing 

13 what is done with that information.

14 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: That's why I 

15 think that it's -- if we can define it as 

16 common-cause communications that's to a site 

17 profile, to a program, as opposed to something 

18 that's in general to an individual claimant. 

19 That's the way I kind of see it.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: So, would it help you 

21 if we tried to list out what we consider 

22 outreach under these different -- you know, we 
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1 have a town hall meeting. We consider that 

2 outreach. But it could be an SEC town hall 

3 meeting or it could be a town hall meeting 

4 like we did at Blockson, where we revised the 

5 technical basis document and we went in to 

6 explain why we had done that.

7 MEMBER BEACH: That should be part 

8 of our definitions letter, statement, 

9 paragraph that whoever is going to write that, 

10 if NIOSH is going to write it, the workgroup 

11 is going to look at it and make sure it hits 

12 everything we think it should hit. Someone 

13 needs to take on that statement or that 

14 definition.

15 MS. BREYER: But, then, the flip 

16 side of that as well will show good examples 

17 of things that are very interactive --

18 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, yes.

19 MS. BREYER: Does the workgroup, 

20 then, want to look at something like -- you 

21 know, we design fact sheets. Those fact 

22 sheets are on our website. Sometimes we mail 
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1 them to people, and then we take them in these 

2 meetings. Does the workgroup then want to go 

3 look at these fact sheets?

4 MEMBER BEACH: I think we need to.

5 MS. BREYER: Then we have 

6 brochures.

7 MEMBER BEACH: I think we need to.

8 MS. BREYER: And those brochures 

9 -- NIOSH tries to do a multi-faceted approach 

10 to get a communication out there. We don't 

11 just put together a fact sheet and just that's 

12 it, put it on our website and that's it. We 

13 take them to Board meetings. PHAs can mail 

14 them. We take them to other worker outreach 

15 meetings that we're talking about.

16 We also have brochures, those 

17 brochures. We also have an acknowledgment 

18 packet. All of this information is the same. 

19 It's just in different formats. We also have 

20 a dose reconstruction video. That's on our 

21 website. We also mail to those people. We 

22 also take it to the Board meetings.
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1 If you want to look at all the 

2 communication products we have, I think that, 

3 then, is not worker outreach necessarily, but 

4 that is communication products. I think 

5 brochures, the acknowledgment packet, fact 

6 sheets -- I am going to be working on some SEC 

7 communication pieces. Those are all products 

8 that have been created, have the same 

9 information basically, and then --

10 MR. ELLIOTT: But the distinction 

11 --

12 MS. BREYER: And then used in 

13 different avenues -

14 MR. ELLIOTT: The distinction to 

15 make, Lori, is that we decide when we do an 

16 outreach effort what communications we are 

17 going to put into play for that outreach 

18 effort. It is different for a workshop than 

19 it is for a town hall meeting than it is for a 

20 focus group of five or six workers talking 

21 about a site profile.

22 And certainly, you know, I can 
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1 understand the Board members' interest in 

2 looking at that and saying, well, what kind of 

3 communications did they use for the purpose of 

4 that event?

5 MEMBER BEACH: What are you 

6 asking?

7 MS. BREYER: That's right, 

8 exactly. And I was trying to make the point 

9 that, even regardless of these outreach 

10 meetings, these can get --

11 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. So you can 

12 look at them in their entirety, --

13 MS. BREYER: -- void of any kind 

14 of outreach efforts that --

15 MR. ELLIOTT: -- a la carte, or 

16 you could look at them in what was used --

17 MS. BREYER: Yes.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: -- for a given 

19 event.

20 MS. BREYER: Exactly.

21 MR. ZEITOUN: Actually, the way I 

22 see it based on Lori's comments, there is a 
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1 generic communication that is taking place 

2 from you to the public in general.

3 This is generic issues. And it's 

4 the same information, but you can tailor it 

5 different ways. This is from you to them. 

6 It's one-way direction to explain the program.

7 However, to me if I am really 

8 looking at it as going back to your earlier 

9 comments, what are the communications that 

10 contribute to the development of the documents 

11 and the dose construction that you are doing 

12 and you finalize? It's a refinement process 

13 that you use the input to make it happen.

14 Really, to me that's the gist of 

15 this Outreach Program. It's not just who 

16 asked for a document, who is asking for a 

17 paper. We are asking who said what that 

18 allowed NIOSH then can say, "We need to 

19 approach it differently" and that or we are 

20 ignoring it because that is the issue the way 

21 I see it, probably all of us -- I hope I am 

22 explaining myself good enough.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: You are absolutely 

2 right. That is the gold nugget.

3 MR. ZEITOUN: That is, really, to 

4 make the program successful because it's like 

5 data. You go in, and you get your own data. 

6 We look at it and see how it is, supplementing 

7 your information, agreeing with yours, finding 

8 something we put in there.

9 We work together for the common 

10 goal. When you come to outreach, it is 

11 similar to data. There is information coming 

12 in. And the Board is entitled to know what is 

13 there to address and how NIOSH has addressed 

14 it. That's it.

15 And if you think that way, I think 

16 the definition of outreach becomes clear to 

17 everybody. And I can see that we are all 

18 reading the same thing. We are saying the 

19 same thing, reading different things.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: Two questions. Two 

21 questions come to mind. How many times has 

22 NIOSH changed its technical basis documents 
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1 for worker outreach input, based on worker 

2 outreach? How many times has that happened? 

3 I can tell you that in this database, we are 

4 showing 37 times right now. That's not all 

5 the times. I believe that's 37.

6 MR. ZEITOUN: But it is happening, 

7 and that is a positive aspect.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. So that is 

9 that question and that answer that we have 

10 right available 37 times, 37 different 

11 documents, whatever.

12 And it may not have all come from 

13 -- it could come from the Docket Office. It 

14 could come from somebody out in the field 

15 saying a claimant meeting with the public 

16 health adviser saying, you know, I think your 

17 site profile is missing something or not 

18 right. It could come from the Board 

19 deliberation process.

20 The other question is, and how 

21 many times have we heard worker input and we 

22 have not incorporated it? I can't give you an 
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1 answer to that because it's so diverse and 

2 it's so amorphous because we could say how 

3 many times we have heard worker input from our 

4 outreach with workers.

5 We certainly can track that. We 

6 are disadvantaged and not able to track and 

7 say how many times at a Board meeting in 

8 public comment did we hear issues that came 

9 out.

10 You know, I'll have to go back to 

11 the transcripts, and I have to recall when I 

12 pulled the person out of the hallway and said, 

13 "Okay. Show me. What are you talking about? 

14 Is it a NIOSH report? Is it a DOL report? 

15 What are we talking about here?"

16 So that's a little bit more 

17 difficult and more challenging to put a number 

18 on.

19 MEMBER MUNN: It is not 

20 quantifiable in any case.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: And then when we do 

22 revise our technical basis documents, there is 
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1 to be a concerted effort to document when a 

2 change is made based upon worker input and is 

3 put on that revision sheet.

4 And we have not been very good 

5 about that to be quite frank and honest about 

6 it. You know, I don't like what we have 

7 demonstrated as our capability there. I think 

8 we can do much better.

9 So there is another way that we 

10 could lay counts on the table. So it depends 

11 upon where you want to start.

12 MR. MAURO: This is John. I would 

13 like to just jump in. I have been giving a 

14 lot of thought to what I would say -- you 

15 know, stepping way back and asking myself, 

16 what is it that I would measure and what is it 

17 that I would like to achieve? If I were 

18 looking at it, what goal? What should be the 

19 target?

20 I would like to just throw this on 

21 the table because this steps a little bit back 

22 from where we are right now because we're 
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1 getting down a little bit into the body 

2 structure, but stepping back, I would say to 

3 myself an effective communication program with 

4 the world at large, all the people we have 

5 been talking about, all the programs would be 

6 one that when NIOSH declines a claimant for 

7 compensation or declines an SEC petition --

8 this sounds like pie in the sky, but I think 

9 it's a way to think about it. When an SEC is 

10 denied, the affected party agrees that they 

11 were treated fairly.

12 In other words, if I were to 

13 measure something and I were to find out that 

14 all the people that were denied, out of all 

15 the people who were denied a claim when they 

16 filed a claim, at the end of the process, they 

17 were asked, "Do you feel as if you were 

18 treated fairly?" if 70-80 percent of them 

19 said, "Yes," I would say you had a very --

20 this is purely a heuristic now. I would say 

21 that whatever communications you had with 

22 those individuals was very effective in 
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1 convincing them that the program that was 

2 being implemented was fair, objective, and 

3 they were treated fairly.

4 In a similar way, if more than 50 

5 percent of the petitioners in an SEC petition 

6 walked away after denial or a partial denial 

7 or a partial approval because very often 

8 that's how they end up, felt that the process 

9 was fair and had a degree of satisfaction, 

10 that the program is evenhanded and doing the 

11 right thing, I would say right now -- and it's 

12 impossible for me to judge -- the sense I get, 

13 of course, is what I observe at the various 

14 interactions a great deal I guess of 

15 dissatisfaction.

16 I don't know if that's a very, 

17 very small vocal group or a general consensus 

18 of the vast body of the petitioners and 

19 claimants do feel a degree of dissatisfaction. 

20 I have no way to know that.

21 But what I allege is I can throw 

22 on the table if there's any way in which that 
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1 could be evaluated and trended to see 

2 improvements are being made where more and 

3 more people affected by this program are 

4 feeling more and more positive about the 

5 program as a result of all of these 

6 interactions, these communications, I would 

7 say that that would be a positive indicator 

8 that whatever we are doing is working.

9 If it is going the other way, 

10 where it seems that the trend is negative, 

11 that means whatever we are doing is really not 

12 being very effective.

13 So, anyway, I wanted to throw that 

14 out as a way I have been thinking about it. 

15 And then, given all of that, what role could 

16 the Board play through this workgroup to help 

17 in keeping the process moving in a positive 

18 direction in terms of credibility and trust?

19 I just wanted to step back and 

20 throw it on the table because I think that is 

21 the context we are working within.

22 MS. BREYER: I think that that is 
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1 going to be something that is going to be very 

2 difficult to do unless you do some sort of 

3 random sampling.

4 If you let me pick 20 people who 

5 send me thank you cards and try to send 

6 flowers and things like that, you are going to 

7 have, even people who are denied, 20 people 

8 who are very happy with the process.

9 You pick 20 people who chose to 

10 come to a Board meeting because they know that 

11 they would have a chance to show their 

12 disagreements with the program, then you're 

13 going to get a completely different answer.

14 I don't know what would be a fair 

15 way to necessarily find a true comparison. 

16 People who come to Board meetings a lot of 

17 times, people who choose to come to some 

18 worker outreach meetings are people who are 

19 choosing to be vocal, who got denied and 

20 aren't happy with that.

21 And then a lot of times you get 

22 that group mentality where you have one person 
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1 by myself might say one thing, but if you get 

2 them with ten other people who also got denied 

3 and aren't happy, then you're going to have 

4 different results from all of those ten people 

5 then you might get if you had those 

6 individuals alone.

7 You know, if you call ten people, 

8 some people -- we have claimants in our system 

9 that have never called NIOSH and have been 

10 denied. And if you ask them how fairly they 

11 were treated, they might be completely 

12 satisfied with it. So you have to depend on 

13 the sample size, --

14 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, I'll bet 

15 they're not.

16 MS. BREYER: -- which would be 

17 very difficult.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: And they might not. 

19 I think we have a silent majority out there 

20 that we haven't heard a word from that if we 

21 went to ask them, they're going to say, "No. 

22 I don't like it. It's frustrating. It's too 
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1 long. It's too difficult. I don't understand 

2 it."

3 MS. BREYER: Yes because they are 

4 going to have negative perceptions as well 

5 because that --

6 MR. ELLIOTT: Thirty percent of 

7 those compensated from DOL are going to say, 

8 "Oh, yes. Okay. I got my money, but it's 

9 still terrible."

10 MEMBER MUNN: I believe John is an 

11 incurable optimist with respect to the --

12 MR. MAURO: Well, you know what? 

13 I would like to get to the heart of the 

14 matter. I mean, what I am hearing is what I 

15 just said. I think everyone would agree if it 

16 could be done, it would be desirable, but the 

17 belief of sitting around the table, is that 

18 the consensus that we don't think it can be 

19 done?

20 MEMBER MUNN: I doubt that it is 

21 desirable. And the reason I doubt that it is 

22 desirable is because I doubt that there is 
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1 anyone who has been told they have a 

2 possibility of receiving $150,000 who is then 

3 told that they will not receive either 

4 $150,000 nor the $300,000 that they thought 

5 they might also pick up is going to be happy 

6 with the process.

7 The probability that you are going 

8 to find such a person is a little bit like 

9 trying to get that camel through the eye of a 

10 needle.

11 And there surely must be one or 

12 two such people out there. But quantifying 

13 them and finding them is remote.

14 MS. BREYER: And I think the other 

15 thing, too, is you have to realize where the 

16 people are coming from to even get started in 

17 the program. They either have cancer or they 

18 have lost someone to cancer.

19 So the very fact that you are 

20 dealing with people who are in this program 

21 because someone is sick or they're sick 

22 automatically starts them from a place of 
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1 negativity, I think.

2 You know, no one is going to come 

3 into this saying, "Oh, yeah. It was a great 

4 process. I got to talk about all the 

5 sicknesses and illnesses I have" or "the 

6 illnesses that my father and mother dealt 

7 with."

8 I mean, so you've automatically 

9 got a biased population because of the 

10 inherent nature of the population. I mean, 

11 also how can you separate the frustrations 

12 with the Department of Labor? We always 

13 constantly get people who are upset.

14 And the Board has heard it, too, 

15 all the frustrations people have with the 

16 Department of Labor and Part E and not knowing 

17 the difference between Part B and Part E and 

18 the Department of Labor and NIOSH.

19 I don't know how you would ever be 

20 able to do any kind of study or quantification 

21 of these people with them being able to figure 

22 out whether they're unhappy with DOL or with 
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1 us.

2 MEMBER BEACH: And I agree, John, 

3 with what you're trying to do or thinking 

4 about doing, but I think that we should maybe 

5 table that discussion for later on in the 

6 process. I know we have quite a heavy agenda.

7 I don't know what you think, Mike, 

8 but it's something we should revisit maybe but 

9 once we get through a little bit more of the 

10 basic steps that we're trying to deal with 

11 today.

12 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: While we are on 

13 this, Larry, you mentioned something. Do you 

14 think you could get together a list of the 

15 different forms of --

16 MR. ELLIOTT: I think if we spoke 

17 about outreach, what do we consider an 

18 outreach effort, and we categorize those for 

19 you, we could say SEC, we could say site 

20 profile worker, TBD development, those kinds 

21 of things. Yes.

22 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: I think that 
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1 will help. Once we get that, then we can kind 

2 of look at that, as opposed to this draft, and 

3 we can see how it fits or if this mission 

4 statement needs changed in the interim.

5 MEMBER BEACH: And is that 

6 included in the definition that we talked 

7 about earlier? Because that is separate from 

8 the mission statement.

9 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Right.

10 MEMBER BEACH: Because that needs 

11 to be developed.

12 MR. ZEITOUN: If we agree, this 

13 fantastic effort is really defining what is 

14 the impetus that is coming to the process 

15 itself, the documentation, the integral part 

16 of what you guys are interested in knowing. 

17 This could be integrated into the mission 

18 statement as fast as possible. And it becomes 

19 available to the Board for discussion.

20 MEMBER MUNN: What constitutes 

21 outreach? Because unless we start with what 

22 constitutes outreach, then we really are 
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1 dealing with an insoluble mass of data that 

2 can't be in any way discussed logically. 

3 There's just simply too much of it.

4 So it's very necessary in my mind 

5 to clearly delineate what the difference is 

6 between outreach and between normal process 

7 because --

8 MR. ZEITOUN: Routine.

9 MEMBER MUNN: The routine.

10 MR. ZEITOUN: The routine things 

11 that are going on. It's not really -- right.

12 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I just want 

13 to make sure we don't lose track of the 

14 information-giving side of outreach because I 

15 do think that it's important, and I do think 

16 that there are some shortcomings in that 

17 arena, that people aren't understanding what 

18 is going on.

19 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: And that's why 

20 we want to track what we want to find, and we 

21 want to try to help resolve if that's there. 

22 We can't lose track of that.
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1 MR. McDOUGALL: I'm sitting here. 

2 I just finished a month or back in April 

3 working with a different part of NIOSH to 

4 evaluate a lot of their interaction with their 

5 public, if you will. And this sounds very 

6 familiar in a lot of ways.

7 I think at the risk of focusing 

8 more on what our group does, I think that your 

9 three numbered points at the top of the 

10 mission statement if you just focus on number 

11 two and number three, number two is basically 

12 evaluation of the process. Are we doing the 

13 right things? And are we doing the right 

14 things in the right way? Okay?

15 And you can design an evaluation 

16 scheme. And you can design an evaluation. If 

17 you can implement that, you can implement 

18 relatively economically. And by 

19 "economically," I mean not only in terms of 

20 money but in terms of the limited time that 

21 this workgroup has to devote to this because I 

22 know you are all on a lot of other workgroups 
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1 looking at a lot of other parts of the 

2 program.

3 And number three is basically 

4 outcome evaluation. Given the process, are 

5 you getting or is NIOSH getting what you think 

6 it needs out of this outreach process? And 

7 Larry spoke to some of these, the measurable 

8 outcomes, earlier.

9 How often do these meetings and 

10 these other fairly tangible events produce the 

11 kinds of outcomes that Larry thinks he is 

12 paying for when he authorizes these? And are 

13 we getting everything we can out of that?

14 You might, for example, want to 

15 look at if we've gotten 37 changes, you might 

16 want to look at meetings that didn't produce 

17 changes and say, "Why didn't they produce 

18 changes? Was there information in there that 

19 somehow wasn't observed or communicated in the 

20 right way?"

21 But if you look at just the 

22 two-step formal evaluation process first 
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1 before you think too much about what you think 

2 it is going to show, it might help you move 

3 forward a little bit.

4 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: I agree. 

5 There's one thing, you know, that I don't 

6 think we could focus on how many times worker 

7 input changes the system, you know.

8 You know, I've been more times 

9 than not on the site profiles and stuff, but 

10 just because a worker gives input doesn't mean 

11 your site profile is wrong.

12 You know, you could evaluate it, 

13 give it due consideration, and not change the 

14 document. And that can still be a success in 

15 outreach.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: Absolutely.

17 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: So, you know, we 

18 have to --

19 MR. ELLIOTT: It can be a success 

20 if in exchange, there is a new understanding 

21 developed on either side, --

22 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Right, right.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: -- a new 

2 understanding on "Well, that is what NIOSH 

3 really uses a site profile for." It's not a 

4 cookbook. It's not a prescription. It's not 

5 a step-wise procedure, which a lot of people 

6 think it is.

7 Even in your Procedures Workgroup 

8 or in the subcommittee that reviews dose 

9 reconstruction, they think of TBD, a site 

10 profile, is prescriptive. It's not. No way 

11 have we ever said that.

12 What a site profile does is give 

13 general guidance and understanding about the 

14 activities of the site for a dose 

15 reconstructor. And then they're here today 

16 going through training of new dose 

17 reconstructors under the new contract. And so 

18 they're gearing them up.

19 They're not laying a site profile 

20 in front of them and saying, "You guys go over 

21 this step by step." They're saying, "Read the 

22 site profile. And now we're going to train 
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1 you on what to think about when you're doing a 

2 dose reconstruction for Pantex or Portsmouth.

3 MS. BREYER: Yes. And I think 

4 that's a really good point as well, I think. 

5 Sometimes site profile means that we have had 

6 to go explain to unions a site profile or even 

7 SEC petition.

8 The fact that we didn't get any 

9 comments back or the fact that no one filed an 

10 SEC petition I don't think is indicative 

11 necessarily that it was a bad meeting.

12 You know, I have been to plenty of 

13 them where we sat down and explained, just 

14 like Larry said, what the site profile does, 

15 how it is used in the process, or explain what 

16 the SEC petitioning process is or what basis 

17 you have to have to file an SEC petition.

18 And we have left. And they have 

19 said, "Okay. That's really good. I 

20 understand it now. It makes sense. It looks 

21 like we've got a lot of work to do."

22 I mean, we'll never see an SEC 
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1 petition or we'll never see, you know, 

2 comments on the site profile, but when we 

3 left, they were happy that we were there. 

4 They were now able to understand what they 

5 need to do.

6 It doesn't necessarily mean we can 

7 make them do it. They're not going to sit 

8 down and read the site profile necessarily and 

9 make comments, but they now know what they 

10 could do, how to submit comments so they could 

11 have them, which they didn't know before. And 

12 I think that shows success.

13 We could receive zero comments. I 

14 think there are plenty of meetings Mark and I 

15 have been to where that has happened. They 

16 were happy. They understood things. I think 

17 that's success.

18 Whether they then take the next 

19 steps to actually write down comments and 

20 submit them to us or even verbally give us 

21 comments for us to write down, you know, that 

22 is another story because, well, sometimes that 
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1 just doesn't happen. They don't.

2 Some people don't even know where 

3 to begin to start or how they could even 

4 provide input. Sitting down with them and 

5 telling them how they can do that, whether 

6 they do it or not, I think means that we have 

7 done a good job.

8 And then if we give them all the 

9 contact information, what they can do to 

10 follow up with us and then they write comments 

11 or file a petition, that's another thing.

12 MEMBER BEACH: I am interested, 

13 too, in how you decide what sites you are 

14 going to visit, where you are going to do your 

15 outreach and what type of outreach is going to 

16 happen there.

17 And I don't know if there is any 

18 rhyme or reason. I'm sure there is for you 

19 guys, but for us to be able to understand that 

20 because I know there are several sites that 

21 haven't had outreach.

22 So, anyway, I am a little bit 
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1 interested in that aspect of it.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: It kind of happens 

3 as the squeaky wheel needs the grease --

4 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: -- or we have 

6 identified an issue that we want answers to or 

7 we're focusing for a certain type of people 

8 that we want to bring to a workshop or we have 

9 heard that there is an interest in filing an 

10 SEC petition. But nobody knows how to do it 

11 and wants our help to do that.

12 So, I mean, these things just kind 

13 of float up. And we react to them.

14 MEMBER BEACH: Yes. I guess I am 

15 a little worried about that aspect of how that 

16 is done and why it is done.

17 MR. McDOUGALL: Actually, overall 

18 a lot of what we call the worker outreach 

19 meetings have been really driven by OCAS 

20 activities.

21 For two or three years, they were 

22 driven very heavily by -- you know, Larry 
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1 spoke to the big campaign for site profiles. 

2 So we were extremely busy just trying to keep 

3 up with getting worker input into site 

4 profiles for a long time.

5 When SEC petitions came about, the 

6 location and, frankly, the timing of a lot of 

7 these meetings is driven by SEC petitions, you 

8 know. And we have a fairly narrow time frame.

9 Really, when you're dealing with 

10 people who aren't geared up to start who 

11 haven't already been thinking about these 

12 things, it's a fairly narrow time frame 

13 between the time a petition is qualified and 

14 the time that the health physicists sit down 

15 to write the evaluation report.

16 So a lot of these, the biggest and 

17 most noticeable events, are driven by those 

18 kinds of demands.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: We do want to be 

20 strategic, though.

21 MR. McDOUGALL: Sure.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: We need to be more 
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1 strategic than we have been. I would say 

2 that. But the strategy that we do employ is 

3 in the workshop arena. You know, we identify 

4 groups of people that we think would benefit 

5 from attending the workshop.

6 So strategy-wise we're saying 

7 we'll have two this year, one next year, those 

8 kinds of things, whatever the resources the 

9 budget will support.

10 You know, SECs, we might say we 

11 need to go out during the front end of an 

12 evaluation and target five or six workers. So 

13 that's strategically put into play in the SEC 

14 evaluation process if they think there is 

15 going to be benefit driven from that.

16 But yes, you are welcome to look 

17 at the strategies that we use.

18 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I've got a 

19 question. As far as Site ASPR interviews, is 

20 that something that you include in your Worker 

21 Outreach Program? Because that's obviously 

22 influenced the site profile.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: That would be 

2 outreach under the site profile effort.

3 MEMBER MUNN: But isn't that a 

4 standard process? I mean, this is what I am 

5 talking about when I am talking about drawing 

6 a line, differentiating. It's a good 

7 question. Is it --

8 MR. ELLIOTT: I don't know that I 

9 can say it is a standard. You know, I wish 

10 the health physicists were here. J. J., I 

11 don't know if you can help me or not, but I 

12 don't know that it's a -- it's not a box they 

13 check on every site profile.

14 MR. ZEITOUN: It gives inputs, new 

15 inputs. The interview process, you are 

16 bringing inputs out of whoever you are dealing 

17 with, regarding the specific circumstances 

18 from the site.

19 So it's not a standard. Probably 

20 the standard is probably the questions that 

21 are going on. But the input that is coming 

22 back to you is specific to the issues related 
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1 to that site.

2 MEMBER MUNN: My point is, if you 

3 don't have the kind of input that we were just 

4 talking about here, then you probably don't 

5 have enough information to do a site profile.

6 Can you think of a site profile 

7 where you have not gone and tried to identify 

8 experts? How would you otherwise have a site 

9 profile completed?

10 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Can I give 

11 you an example? Okay? At the last Mound 

12 Working Group meeting, it's our understanding 

13 that they developed a model for neutron 

14 exposure. And they brought together a group 

15 of workers.

16 MEMBER BEACH: Ten, 12 workers, I 

17 believe.

18 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And they 

19 asked them, "Is this reflective of what you 

20 did at Mound?" Now, based upon the definition 

21 in PROC-012, I would see that as a focus group 

22 --
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: That was an outreach 

2 effort.

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: -- and then 

4 a worker outreach because there was a purpose 

5 to it.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, very good.

7 MEMBER BEACH: And that is 

8 interesting because I was told it was not 

9 worker outreach. And then I read this on the 

10 plane coming over here, and I went, "Now, wait

11 a minute." Now that you brought it up it just 

12 reminded me.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: I am assuming that 

14 the person who told you that is our point of 

15 contact for the Mound. He's a health 

16 physicist.

17 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: He's focused on site 

19 profile issues and the evaluation of the Mound 

20 SEC. And yes, he probably really doesn't 

21 recognize it as outreach. But I can assure 

22 you it is outreach.
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1 MEMBER BEACH: And so it wouldn't 

2 really matter if it was one or 2 people or 10 

3 or 12 people. This describes 10 or 12 people. 

4 But if it was one or two and those were the 

5 only experts you were able to locate, then 

6 that would still be a worker type of --

7 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes.

8 MEMBER BEACH: -- form of worker 

9 outreach. And those comments should be looked 

10 at by the workgroup or the interested 

11 workgroup. In this case it was Mound or in 

12 our case, we want to track those comments and 

13 see how they were used, what was done with 

14 them, what maybe wasn't done with them.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Which means in my 

16 mind that item number 2 in our first paragraph 

17 needs to be expanded so that we clarify what 

18 we mean when we say "meetings." What 

19 meetings? Because we have all kinds of 

20 meetings.

21 We're not interested in every 

22 meeting that NIOSH has. That is not what we 
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1 are after here. What we are trying to define 

2 is what we consider outreach in the meetings 

3 that NIOSH oversees or sets up, right?

4 MEMBER BEACH: Well, it's expanded 

5 in their procedure, but maybe we want to 

6 expand it, as you are saying, more than what 

7 they have actually got listed in their 

8 procedure.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Well, it's a 

10 question of if we are going to have as our 

11 guideline, the guidelines that are shown in 

12 the procedure, then that's fine. But we need 

13 to reference, monitor the conduct of the 

14 meetings listed in PROC-012 if that's what 

15 we're going to do.

16 MEMBER BEACH: I agree.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Otherwise if we're 

18 talking about more, than my point is we talked 

19 about focus groups. We talked about 

20 workshops. We have talked about town hall 

21 meetings. And we talked about public meetings 

22 held in conjunction with Board meetings. And 
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1 if those are the meetings that we're talking 

2 about, then whatever it is we're talking about 

3 should be defined in the draft of our guidance 

4 documents.

5 MS. BREYER: I think we also need 

6 to be clear, like he said, Wanda, as you point 

7 out, meetings that NIOSH organized. There are 

8 a lot of times where NIOSH doesn't organize a 

9 meeting, a meeting is organized, and someone 

10 from NIOSH is asked to be there. I don't know 

11 whether you consider that worker outreach.

12 I don't know whether it was a 

13 Mound meeting. There was a meeting. And 

14 someone from NIOSH was asked to be there 

15 versus a meeting that NIOSH organizes.

16 So we need to also think about 

17 that because if we do a meeting where I am 

18 asked to be a guest, I don't consider that a 

19 NIOSH worker outreach meeting. But I am asked 

20 to come speak to somebody and give them 

21 information about something.

22 So yes, there was a meeting that 
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1 was held where a NIOSH representative was at, 

2 but it wasn't a NIOSH worker outreach meeting. 

3 And I think we need to be clear about those 

4 types of meetings as well.

5 MR. ZEITOUN: And it is going to 

6 be interesting. The people gather themselves 

7 to have a meeting and ask you to come in.

8 MS. BREYER: Yes.

9 MR. ZEITOUN: But what is the 

10 purpose of that meeting? Is it just to get 

11 information from you about the procedures, how 

12 to do it?

13 MS. BREYER: Typically. Well, 

14 there have been several instances. A lot of 

15 times I will come out in my role as SEC 

16 petition counselor, Denise, where there is a 

17 group of workers maybe interested in filing an 

18 SEC petition and they realize that we are 

19 available or may not even realize that we are 

20 available but may contact us and say, "We're 

21 having a meeting" or "The union has made 

22 contacts from the union," some of the ATL 
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1 folks, and say, "We're having a union 

2 meeting."

3 And we have a lot of people who 

4 don't have questions about this. We don't 

5 know. Can you come out to our meeting, our 

6 union meeting, and tell us about this or like 

7 the petitioner for Los Alamos, [Identifying 

8 information redacted].

9 He was putting together a meeting 

10 with a couple of people. And he and I talked. 

11 And I said, "Why don't you come out and 

12 explain this as well?" And then he and I were 

13 supposed to go out there and just sit down and 

14 talk with them.

15 We also have people who are 

16 advocates, like [Identifying information 

17 redacted], who set up some meetings where he 

18 wanted us to take information and put together 

19 Power Points and have all of these people come 

20 in.

21 You know, so you have different 

22 reasons why members of the public or whether 
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1 it be union groups or advocates or whoever, 

2 that they would want to put together a meeting 

3 and just want us there.

4 MEMBER BEACH: I think that goes 

5 back to, Lori, what happens at that meeting. 

6 Are there notes taken? And surely not by you 

7 but if the union sets up and takes notes and 

8 then they submit those notes to NIOSH, then 

9 that is a form of worker outreach that we may 

10 want to look at.

11 MS. BREYER: That rarely happens 

12 where you don't have notes taken because you 

13 may something later where they can provide 

14 comments to the Docket Office, but usually you 

15 won't see anything happen out of it. It will 

16 just be an informational meeting.

17 Now, the one with like 

18 [Identifying information redacted], you know, 

19 advocates sometimes, they may make it a little 

20 elaborate. They had a court reporter there. 

21 They made all those notes and documents. And 

22 that was verbatim transcripts.
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1 I mean, it wasn't anything 

2 necessarily that was going to change or 

3 comments on the site profile, comments on an 

4 evaluation, just an informative meeting, which 

5 will then go to the health physicist or 

6 whoever needs to see it.

7 At those meetings, you had health 

8 physicists there. They were able to take 

9 notes as well and then get the copy of the 

10 transcripts and then use the notes how they 

11 saw fit.

12 MR. MAURO: This is John. I think 

13 you are hitting on something that is very 

14 close to home in terms of my experience. I 

15 think the greatest frustration a lot of the 

16 workers that have called me, petitioners --

17 they will call me very often -- is they feel 

18 an urgency to communicate very important 

19 information to the program. So that that 

20 information is taken into consideration.

21 We right now -- when I say "we," I 

22 mean collectively, the Board, NIOSH, SC&A, 
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1 NIOSH's contractors -- have the CATI process 

2 well in hand. What I mean by that is there is 

3 a formal process where information is gathered 

4 and then the Board and its contractors have an 

5 opportunity as a result of our dose 

6 reconstruction reviews to judge the degree to 

7 which the information that was gathered 

8 through the CATI process is, in fact, 

9 reflected in the dose reconstruction.

10 So, I mean, that is part of what 

11 we audit. We audit somewhere between one and 

12 two percent of all dose reconstructions that 

13 have been adjudicated.

14 So I think there is machinery in 

15 place right now where the information being 

16 provided that is essential to a good dose 

17 reconstruction, at least from the point of 

18 view of the individual dose reconstructions, 

19 is in the machinery.

20 And a great deal of attention has 

21 recently been given to the questionnaire in 

22 the CATI. So I think that there has been a 
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1 tremendous amount of attention and progress 

2 made in terms of making that information 

3 gathering and the actual use of it documented 

4 and audited. And so we are doing that.

5 Now, on the other hand, when it 

6 comes to site profiles and SEC petitions, it's 

7 my observation that a great deal of 

8 information is being gathered by NIOSH. But 

9 it's not immediately apparent to me that that 

10 information has been documented and 

11 communicated to the world at large, that all 

12 of this important information was gathered, 

13 and the degree to which it was factored into 

14 or not factored into the technical documents 

15 that are produced.

16 So that there is a degree of 

17 frustration by I think the affected community 

18 with the site profiles and with the SEC, the 

19 evaluation reports, in that the sensibility is 

20 that the material that they had tried to 

21 communicate is not finding its way into the 

22 documents.
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1 The greatest feedback SC&A gets 

2 and, in fact, what we do is when we 

3 re-interview people, we document as best we 

4 can and make available the material that we 

5 received. So I think there is a certain 

6 degree of satisfaction achieved by that.

7 That is, I think the petitioners 

8 and the site experts and the claimants 

9 involved when we do the reviews, which is part 

10 of our review of the site profile or an 

11 evaluation report, the documentation does find 

12 its way into the record whereby we have a 

13 attachment that we do the best we can to 

14 communicate what we have learned. And, in 

15 fact, very often what we learn from this 

16 material goes toward our commentaries on the 

17 work product that NIOSH produces.

18 Where I am headed with all of this 

19 is I think that the enormity of information

20 that NIOSH and its contractors collect in 

21 preparing its site profiles and evaluation 

22 reports -- and correct me if I am wrong. It 
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1 is not always apparent the degree to which --

2 and documented -- all of that information was 

3 factored into your work products.

4 And I think if it were transparent 

5 that a great deal of attention was given to it 

6 and factored into and some of it you have 

7 adopted to use and some of it you have elected 

8 not to give so much weight to and why, that 

9 side of the coin I don't think is apparent to 

10 the public.

11 Now, I guess, Larry, would you 

12 agree that your work products don't reflect 

13 the enormity of material that was collected, 

14 at least not in an apparent way to members of 

15 the public?

16 MR. ELLIOTT: No. I would agree 

17 with you that we don't have, in our document 

18 reporting referencing regime, we don't point 

19 to all of the information that was examined. 

20 We only reference that which is we feel 

21 relevant to the document itself and the 

22 approach that we're laying out in the 
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1 document.

2 Certainly we want to take credit 

3 for all of the information that has been 

4 opened up to the public. This program has 

5 done an enormous job in that regard.

6 So, but I'm not sure that, if 

7 there's an aspect of this I'm not fully in 

8 agreement on, John, it would be the benefit. 

9 You know, I mean, you yourself know what our 

10 site research database holds for some of these 

11 sites.

12 MR. MAURO: Yes.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: And yet, you know, 

14 the site profile may only reference a tenth of 

15 that site research database.

16 MR. MAURO: Yes.

17 MR. ELLIOTT: So yes, it may be 

18 cathartic to the public to know that we've 

19 looked at lots of information and we chose 

20 only to use this piece of the information. 

21 Maybe it wouldn't be so cathartic. Maybe they 

22 need somebody like you guys to go in and say,
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1 what's wrong with the 90 percent that wasn't 

2 used?

3 MR. ZEITOUN: But I think that your 

4 database, your database will correct for that. 

5 Is that correct? Am I right? You know, the 

6 WISPR was intended based on my readings 

7 earlier that it is going to track all the 

8 comments and issues that's coming in, how 

9 you're going to treat it, and now with the new 

10 database, hopefully it will retrieve the WISPR 

11 database. But I don't know anything about it.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: Again, I don't know 

13 the benefit of doing that, because the 

14 program, through the evolution of -- you know, 

15 it has matured. And there's different phases 

16 within this evolutionary cycle of the program 

17 that we could point to that are no longer 

18 relevant or applicable. So you're looking at 

19 a snapshot in time --

20 MR. ZEITOUN: That has passed.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: -- that has passed.

22 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes. Okay.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: And so when WISPR 

2 was developed by ORAU on a platform that we 

3 can't transpose into, as I understand it, into 

4 an IT software platform for us. So it would 

5 be a lot of hand transfer of information.

6 And then, you know, ORAU had its 

7 own designs about WISPR, which, quite frankly, 

8 was not a deliverable to us. And so we 

9 weren't as interested in what the content of 

10 that was, as maybe you are.

11 MR. ZEITOUN: But in general, 

12 Larry --

13 MR. ELLIOTT: We didn't see the 

14 utility in that.

15 MR. ZEITOUN: Forget about the 

16 WISPR in this case. I would agree, if this is 

17 going to be a -- you know, this has passed, 

18 anyway. But the new database that you are 

19 talking about, this is really going forward, 

20 and it's going to deal with the aspects that 

21 John was raising. It's what the comments you 

22 received, the issues have been received --
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: Exactly.

2 MR. ZEITOUN: -- and you are 

3 dealing with it.

4 MR. ELLIOTT: Exactly.

5 MR. ZEITOUN: So there will be a 

6 complementary database for the technical 

7 documents.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Is this a public 

9 database? If not, then it doesn't address 

10 John's issue here.

11 MR. ELLIOTT: It doesn't.

12 MEMBER MUNN: And this is not --

13 MR. ELLIOTT: It would not be a 

14 public database because of that personal --

15 MR. MAURO: I would suggest that 

16 we always include an attachment to every one 

17 of our site profile reviews, for example, 

18 which summarizes, in considerable detail, the 

19 information that we acquired, and the area 

20 related to the site profile.

21 Now, is it possible that one of 

22 the things that -- you know, when you gather 
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1 up all of this information, and then you 

2 review it, is it possible to include, you 

3 know, besides having your site query database 

4 that you are going to populate under the new 

5 procedure, and certainly that will be 

6 available to SC&A to review.

7 So that would be part of the, I 

8 guess the suite of information that we'll 

9 review, which is good. But in terms of --

10 see, in addition to producing a good technical 

11 product on all ends, I'm also very interested 

12 in enhancing public credibility and trust.

13 Maybe one thing that could be done 

14 is, when you issue a site profile, an 

15 attachment be provided which summarizes, as 

16 best you can, the information that you 

17 gathered from the public in the process of 

18 preparing the site profile, summarizing it in 

19 a way in how it was used.

20 I'm looking for a way -- and this 

21 transcends just let's say the role of the 

22 Board in auditing your work or reviewing your 
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1 work, because we do that anyway. So we have 

2 access to all that information.

3 I guess I'm bringing this up now 

4 from the perspective of bringing a certain 

5 amount of peace of mind to the affected 

6 community, that the information you provided 

7 to them was, in fact, taken into consideration 

8 seriously, and is reflected in your site 

9 profile.

10 And that might be a valuable thing 

11 to do, because in my opinion, one of the most 

12 difficult parts of this program is public 

13 trust and credibility.

14 I would like to hear a little bit 

15 more positive feelings. That may not be 

16 possible, like you said. I might be just a 

17 cockeyed optimist. But I think there might be 

18 some things that could be done that at least 

19 tries to move that in a direction where -- and 

20 I think all of your outreach activities that 

21 you've been describing is really an attempt to 

22 do that.
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1 All I'm saying is one more thing 

2 that might be valuable is including an 

3 appendix that captures that, summarizes the 

4 review, the data you've gathered, and how it 

5 was factored into your work products.

6 MR. MAKHIJANI: May I say 

7 something on that point? This is Arjun. I 

8 think quite apart from the public credibility 

9 aspect, or enhancing it or whatever, just the 

10 process of putting together the main issues 

11 that arise out of integrating the interviews 

12 in that way under issue headings, which is 

13 what we do in the summaries, kind of gives the 

14 preparer of the technical analysis, you know, 

15 the chance to look at what input is useful.

16 And then, you know, when you write 

17 the site profile, or when we write the site 

18 profile review, it's easier for us to refer to 

19 that document and show where we made use of 

20 it, so it makes it much more transparent.

21 And so I think just technically 

22 bringing the issues together under one summary
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1 is a useful analytical exercise, because it 

2 allows you to examine what's being said apart 

3 from the personal things, or individual case 

4 things that may come up when you interview 

5 workers.

6 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Ted?

7 MR. KATZ: This conversation, and 

8 I think it's been -- it's useful, but it's 

9 bouncing around between what are objectives 

10 and detailed issues of process and so on. And 

11 I think it would be good to -- if you want to 

12 get your framework and then drill down from a 

13 framework, get the framework straight.

14 It seems to me, from what I've 

15 heard, there are two goals, possible goals 

16 here, for being evaluated: how well is the 

17 program writ large, meaning everybody 

18 involved, how well is the program informing 

19 the public, and how well is the program being 

20 informed by the public?

21 If those are your two goals, then 

22 just, speaking to what Vern raised earlier, 
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1 you know, in evaluation, you have process 

2 issues, and you have outcome issues.

3 And the process, you've talked a 

4 lot about process issues, what should be in a 

5 site profile appendix or what have you. But I 

6 mean, this Working Group can evaluate how well 

7 the processes are for informing and for being 

8 informed, includes things, like Josie said, 

9 how do you choose where to go to, I mean, all 

10 of those things. That's all process.

11 So you can have, then, process 

12 evaluation, how well are we informing the 

13 public, and then how well are we being 

14 informed, which means finding the public, 

15 getting them involved, all of that, and then 

16 making use of the information they give.

17 So you can set up that framework: 

18 how well are we informing, how well are we 

19 being informed, process evaluation, and then 

20 outcomes.

21 And the outcomes, you know, when 

22 you go with the question -- we spoke earlier 
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1 about how well are we informing the public. 

2 As Larry and a number of people mentioned, 

3 it's very difficult to deal with that in the 

4 sort of meta scale that John talked about, 

5 where all sorts of elements of this program 

6 are affecting, as well as the world at large 

7 is affecting how the public perceives this 

8 program.

9 It's very hard to evaluate 

10 outcomes there, but you can evaluate sort of 

11 close outcomes, like is the information being 

12 provided. So it's more sort of process 

13 measure, but sort of as close to outcome as 

14 you can get. Are the site profiles including 

15 credits for input given by the public and so 

16 on?

17 And then in terms of impact or 

18 outcomes in terms of how well are we making 

19 use of information in this public, obtaining 

20 and making use of it, when I think there you 

21 can do pretty good analysis on, was the right 

22 information obtained, and was it actually put 
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1 to use? I mean, I think you can do some of 

2 that. But once you have that framework, I 

3 think then the working group -- you know, the 

4 way to go at it.

5 The process things, of course, you 

6 can look at the processes. You can look at 

7 site profile documents and so on. I mean, you 

8 can organize yourself that way, decide which 

9 are the most important vehicles to evaluate.

10 When it comes to outcomes, I think 

11 you'll probably want to choose some case 

12 examples. You know, let's see how well this 

13 worked for Mound, or let's see how well --

14 But I think if you don't narrow 

15 your focus to some very particular outcomes, 

16 you'll be overwhelmed with just sort of 

17 anecdotal a little piece here about this 

18 particular site, a little piece there about 

19 what went on with that particular site.

20 I think you'll want to be very 

21 organized and select a few cases to look at, 

22 you know, what were the outcomes in terms of 
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1 how well did we obtain information for the 

2 public for this site and put it to use. 

3 That's just a suggestion because it --

4 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: And I agree. I 

5 think we need to get a little more focused 

6 here. And I, personally, and unless the rest 

7 of the workgroup sees it differently, I think 

8 it's very important how the public perceives 

9 the program. But I see that as a little bit 

10 outside of this workgroup.

11 I think we look at the outreach 

12 that goes on, and we may suggest there needs 

13 to be additional outreach, and the outreach 

14 that does go on, we're going to look at how 

15 the input is taken, and how the input is used 

16 or not used, and how it's evaluated.

17 But to try to come up with 

18 something that's going to help the public 

19 perceive this program better and the 

20 information they provide, I see that as a 

21 little bigger than this workgroup, personally.

22 So if it's okay with everyone, 
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1 let's maybe take a ten-minute break. And then 

2 we'll come back and try to focus back into 

3 this draft mission statement, and do a little 

4 bit more.

5 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

6 went off the record at 10:54 a.m. and resumed 

7 at 11:22 a.m.)

8 MR. KATZ: Okay. This is the 

9 Worker Outreach Working Group, and we're just 

10 coming back online. Let me just check. Phil, 

11 do we have you back on the phone?

12 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: I'm still on 

13 the line, Ted.

14 MR. KATZ: Great. Thanks. Okay. 

15 Larry had something.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. I want to 

17 provide a point of clarification that goes 

18 back to our discussion earlier this morning 

19 when Kathy was speaking about the ORAU 

20 procedure 97.

21 Mary Jo Zacchero, who is in the 

22 room, reminded me that ORAU wants it made, 
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1 procedure 97, obsolete. It picked up ORAU 

2 procedure 0031 and revised it.

3 This is the procedure that tells a 

4 person how to develop a technical basis 

5 document. And in that, it speaks to what a 

6 person, an author, and I think a team leader, 

7 are responsible for regarding worker input 

8 given to a particular TBD.

9 So I just want to make sure that 

10 folks understand that, while ORAU procedure 97 

11 is no longer in use, ORAU has another 

12 procedure that does speak to how worker input 

13 is to be handled.

14 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Larry, I've got 

15 a quick question for you. This is Phil.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay.

17 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: When the 

18 Department of Labor does any kind of outreach, 

19 do they give you that information or that data 

20 they've collected?

21 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, I don't know 

22 what data you're talking about. I mean, they 
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1 tell us --

2 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: So this is 

3 basically like the comments from the workers 

4 or the people that they've met with. Is that 

5 information supplied to NIOSH from the 

6 Department of Labor?

7 MR. ELLIOTT: No, no. The town 

8 hall meetings that I've attended with DOL -

9 Lori can support me here as well - we don't 

10 see them collect information from those town 

11 hall meetings. So there's nothing to give us.

12 You know, we take our own notes, 

13 and we interact with people as appropriate if 

14 necessary, but we don't see anything coming 

15 from DOL as far as data collected.

16 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Okay. Thanks.

17 MR. ZEITOUN: So what's the 

18 purpose of DOL meetings?

19 MR. ELLIOTT: To let people vent.

20 MR. ZEITOUN: That's it?

21 MR. ELLIOTT: You know, they go in 

22 with a purpose like, we're here to talk about 
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1 the new SEC class that's been added to that 

2 site. That's one reason they have a town hall 

3 meeting. How are we going to adjudicate 

4 claims under that new class? They explain 

5 that, but typically it turns into, we're not 

6 happy. 

7 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: You know, we hate 

9 the program.

10 MR. ZEITOUN: It's a psychological 

11 approach to a -- make everybody happy.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, at least give 

13 them an opportunity to vent their 

14 frustrations.

15 MS. BREYER: The DOL Ombudsman's 

16 Office, when they go out on meetings, that's 

17 all it's really for is for him to be able to 

18 collect comments from people because, you 

19 know, he'll say his office really can't do 

20 anything, but they're there to listen to the 

21 frustrations of the claimants, because they 

22 report to Congress the problems that they see 
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1 or that they hear most often.

2 The DOL meetings, I've already 

3 said they'll go and say, an SEC class has been 

4 added, here's what we're going to do, or --

5 MR. ELLIOTT: Or if they go to 

6 recruit claims. Another reason they hold a 

7 town hall meeting is to recruit claims. And 

8 in that, they give an overview of the program, 

9 and here's what you've got to do to be 

10 eligible, and here's what you've got to do to 

11 file a claim, you know.

12 MR. ZEITOUN: One issue that comes 

13 to my mind, because I do the Outreach Program 

14 from a different perspective, I do it from the 

15 NEPA standpoint, you know, the general public, 

16 you know, everybody's interest.

17 How do you advertise for your 

18 program? Do you have a -- you know, I don't 

19 know. How do you advertise for it to bring 

20 people out to talk to you and exchange 

21 information?

22 MR. ELLIOTT: So that would depend 
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1 upon the type of outreach effort, the purpose 

2 we have for reaching out. If it is an SEC 

3 counselor, ombudsman session, they'll put a 

4 notice in the paper --

5 MR. ZEITOUN: Newspaper.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: -- they'll talk to 

7 retiree groups, and any way they can get the 

8 word out.

9 MS. BREYER: Send out letters to 

10 any claimants they have in the system.

11 MR. ELLIOTT: Send out letters to 

12 claimants in the area.

13 MS. BREYER: -- in the area, 

14 unions. We'll talk to unions.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: If it's our public 

16 health advisors attending the Board meeting 

17 and setting up interviews, we send letters to 

18 all active claimants in that area encouraging 

19 them to schedule a meeting. We'll put a 

20 notice in the paper of the Board meeting and 

21 the fact that a claimant would have an 

22 opportunity to talk to NIOSH staff.
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1 MR. ZEITOUN: Excellent. So the 

2 reason advertisements --

3 MR. ELLIOTT: But it varies.

4 MR. ZEITOUN: -- there are 

5 advertisements is to allow for people to 

6 understand that there is something related to 

7 that.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: We also post it on 

9 our website. We post a calendar of events on 

10 our website. And we share our calendar of 

11 outreach events with Department of Energy and 

12 the former workers' screening programs. This 

13 is a relatively recent coordination effort, 

14 because DOE and its former screening program 

15 managers, they have a set of outreach efforts 

16 that they do, too. And we don't want to be, 

17 you know, chewing up the same people at the 

18 same time.

19 MR. ZEITOUN: Right, right.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: So we try to 

21 coordinate on that. And that gets -- you 

22 know, the fact that we're coordinated that way 
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1 gets out there among the local members of the 

2 public if they are so engaged in the former 

3 worker screening program, don't know about the 

4 NIOSH effort coming down the line.

5 MS. BREYER: We'll also let 

6 congressional staffers in the area know if we 

7 know that their roles are very active. I 

8 mean, if we know of active ones. We don't go 

9 and call congressional offices, but when we 

10 have ones that regularly contact us, because, 

11 you know, a lot of times they are involved 

12 with their constituents. So they can -- if 

13 they're active. You know, and the letters.

14 And like Mark was just saying, if 

15 the union knows of local radio stations, 

16 they'll contact the local radio stations, or 

17 they'll let us know, and we'll contact -- put 

18 out a press release. And we'll let DOL know. 

19 The Board members know, it goes on the 

20 website.

21 That can still be hard. It's like 

22 Brookhaven National Lab. You know, we really 
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1 -- that one was just a general town hall-style 

2 meeting that we had last time because, you 

3 know, this goes back to Josie's question about 

4 how do we decide where we're going to have 

5 meetings.

6 We had a worker outreach meeting, 

7 or a workshop. And some of the people, the 

8 union members from Brookhaven National Lab 

9 came, and the IBEW. And they were talking 

10 about the site. It has been around for 60 

11 years. Twenty thousand, forty thousand 

12 employees have been in and out of the site.

13 And I looked in our system. We 

14 only have like 30 claims. I mean, there is a 

15 very small amount of claims. We contacted 

16 DOL. They said they had done a ton of 

17 outreach out there, and that just seemed odd 

18 to me. So we decided Grady was going to be 

19 working on the evaluation report.

20 We decided to go out and explain 

21 the program, sent out letters, but with very 

22 few claims, there weren't a lot of letters we 
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1 could send out. Sent out a couple of press 

2 releases, but no local media picked it up, 

3 contacted the union and the retirees' group, 

4 invited DOL. DOL was out with us. And we 

5 still probably had maybe five people at each 

6 meeting.

7 You know, so some sites, it's hard 

8 to drum up interest.

9 MR. ZEITOUN: Because when they 

10 retire, they spread all over the country, you 

11 know.

12 MS. BREYER: They can, but at 

13 Brookhaven, there's a local retirees' group 

14 that still live in the area. And they also 

15 have a newsletter that goes out to current and 

16 former workers. We posted it in there about 

17 the meeting, as well.

18 So some places are more difficult 

19 than others. You know, some communities you 

20 can send out just five letters and get 100 

21 people to show up. Other times you can send 

22 out 200 letters and get five people to show 
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1 up. So -- but we try to get every avenue we 

2 can.

3 MR. ZEITOUN: Good. Thank you.

4 MR. ELLIOTT: Vern, you had 

5 something?

6 MR. McDOUGALL: No.

7 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. Whoever 

8 is going to go through that.

9 NIOSH OUTREACH TRACKING SYSTEM

10 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, I'm sorry. We 

11 had hoped to be able to show you on screen 

12 here the database that Mary and J.J. and folks 

13 at NIOSH have created.

14 So I guess you all have a copy of 

15 this little pamphlet, which can serve as 

16 almost a user's guide, I think, in a way. But 

17 I'll let J.J. or Mary walk you through this. 

18 And I apologize again for technical --

19 MS. ELLIOTT: I actually did some 

20 internet work that shows me how to do this. 

21 So I can get this done, and we can look at it.

22 But the system is basically a 
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1 pretty comprehensive listing, or a system to 

2 not only notify people of meetings, but also 

3 to, as the outreach event progresses or nears, 

4 you can go in, edit things.

5 But anyway, we started out with, 

6 when you put it in the meeting, you go to the 

7 home screen, and you can select a site from a 

8 list of drop-downs.

9 MR. KATZ: Again I just note for 

10 the folks on the phone, this is the NIOSH 

11 Outreach Tracking System. And there is a 

12 brochure. And for the folks on the phone, we 

13 won't make it for this meeting, but we'll get 

14 you copies.

15 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay. Maybe I 

16 should go back and give an overview of the 

17 system. It's an application that is

18 acceptable through the OCAS staff tools. It's 

19 designed to serve as a repository for all the 

20 available records relating to worker outreach 

21 events. It includes a tracking function for 

22 site and meeting action items, which we've 
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1 talked about in the meeting so far, and also 

2 gives the OCAS HP who deals with that a chance 

3 to make a resolution in a timely manner.

4 And basically it's a read-only 

5 application for most users, but several users 

6 are given the right permissions to enter data 

7 for meetings, and to edit the different parts 

8 of the system.

9 So that being said, you all, at 

10 least the Board members, have received an 

11 e-mail notifying them of an upcoming event. 

12 And to do that, first we have to add the 

13 worker outreach meeting to the system, going 

14 through the home screen and picking the site.

15 And when you enter the new 

16 meeting, it gives you an opportunity to put in 

17 all of the specifics relating to the meeting, 

18 such as the time and the place, who the 

19 interest group is, and any notes or comments 

20 about why the meeting was organized, or that 

21 sort of thing.

22 So basically going through the 
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1 figures, you know, they're all pretty 

2 self-explanatory based on what I just told 

3 you.

4 MEMBER BEACH: So you said we will 

5 be sent an e-mail, and that will let us know 

6 that we can go check the specifics of that 

7 meeting? Is that correct?

8 MS. ELLIOTT: No. I don't know 

9 what you're at at this point, but the point of 

10 this is getting a new meeting into the system 

11 as an event. And then after the meeting is 

12 entered, there is the opportunity, if you look 

13 at figure 1B-1, once that meeting is entered, 

14 you'll see this sort of screen, and we would 

15 see this sort of screen in home screen.

16 And in order to send a meeting 

17 notification, we can go in and select a list. 

18 Let's see --

19 MR. ELLIOTT: If I can help you, 

20 Mary --

21 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: She's describing a 
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1 feature of this system where we enter a 

2 meeting for a site, for Mound, and we can 

3 select, if you see on 1B-1 here, the group 

4 that is going to distribute that.

5 MEMBER BEACH: Right, but she had 

6 started it with an e-mail to the Board. And 

7 that's where I was --

8 MS. ELLIOTT: Well, okay.

9 MEMBER BEACH: -- I just wanted a 

10 clarification on that.

11 MS. ELLIOTT: After the meeting is 

12 entered, then the email will be sent.

13 MEMBER BEACH: That's what I was 

14 wondering. Thank you.

15 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay. I'm sorry. 

16 If I had the screen, it would be so much 

17 easier.

18 MEMBER BEACH: No. That's okay.

19 MS. ELLIOTT: So the next shows 

20 how we have a list of contacts. And you can 

21 toggle through the list and select, or you can 

22 create a new list.
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1 For this meeting, in particular, 

2 that we have entered as a mockup, I just 

3 selected J.J. and myself as a test group. So 

4 I went in and created the list. And it shows 

5 basically how to do that.

6 And then you can also add new 

7 general contacts. And I'll skip over that 

8 part. But figure 1B-6 is a screen that we get 

9 when an email is ready to send. And it pulls 

10 up the meeting, and you have a chance to edit 

11 your email. But basically it gives the 

12 meeting information, and when you send the 

13 email, it goes to your group.

14 And the next sheet, the figure 

15 1B-7, is an example of the email, which most 

16 of you have seen. I think we sent some in 

17 February.

18 But anyway, that's the first part 

19 of this system. It's a notification system of 

20 the new meetings.

21 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Can I ask a 

22 question about that?
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1 MS. ELLIOTT: Sure.

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Are the 

3 SC&A contacts in this --

4 MS. ELLIOTT: I don't believe they 

5 are at this time.

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: -- system?

7 MS. ELLIOTT: I don't believe they 

8 are, but they can be added. I'm not sure. I 

9 can't speak to that.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: They will be added, 

11 yes. I don't know if they're in there yet or 

12 not.

13 MS. ELLIOTT: No, they're not. I 

14 don't have the information.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: But we will add them, 

16 Kathy.

17 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay. Tab 2 is 

18 basically an overview of the site information. 

19 You can select the site from the drop-down 

20 list in the home screen to select any site 

21 specifically that you want to.

22 And in this case, I selected 
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1 Hanford, which is figure 2-1. And when you 

2 select a site, it brings up all of the events 

3 that have been held or will be held at that 

4 site.

5 So if you go on to the fourth page 

6 of that, figure 2-3, I selected this worker 

7 outreach meeting in particular because it's 

8 our workshop that we held in March, and it 

9 shows that we can use more than one site for a 

10 meeting. You can enter more than one site.

11 But if you look at this, this 

12 gives you basically all the meeting 

13 information, or all the description of the 

14 meeting in the database layout kind of form or 

15 spreadsheet kind of form, actually.

16 Also, if you note at the bottom, 

17 the site action items and the site files, 

18 those can be added. And for instance, the 

19 Savannah River site, they had some SEC 

20 meetings where we went down and spoke to 

21 workers.

22 And if there is an action item 
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1 where the HP for that site needed to organize 

2 a group or whatever, he could put it there, 

3 and then do the resolution or whatever.

4 Site files may be an email to a 

5 specific interest group about information 

6 coming up about a site. And we've done that 

7 several times with some of the SECs that were 

8 coming up for qualification, like to notify a 

9 union or an organization that there was a 

10 petition that had been filed.

11 MR. ZEITOUN: Mary, forgive me.

12 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes, sir?

13 MR. ZEITOUN: This information is 

14 sent also to the point of contact --

15 MS. ELLIOTT: No.

16 MR. ZEITOUN: -- or people that go 

17 through the database --

18 MS. ELLIOTT: This is when you are 

19 looking at the information, yes.

20 MR. ZEITOUN: Okay.

21 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

22 MR. ZEITOUN: I just want to know.
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1 MS. ELLIOTT: This will be what --

2 MR. ZEITOUN: Because these are 

3 very useful information, you know, because 

4 from our interest at SC&A, we are usually 

5 trying to seek it. But this is great.

6 MS. ELLIOTT: We are trying to 

7 make it very, very detailed, to the point 

8 where somebody who is not familiar with the 

9 background can at least get a basic 

10 familiarity of it.

11 So these next couple of figures, 

12 figure 2-4 and 2-5, show the screens where you 

13 enter new site action items or site files. So 

14 we can move on to tab 3 unless you have a 

15 question.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: What is this 

17 populated with now, Mary?

18 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: What is section 2 

20 populated with? We know it -- I want to be 

21 clear for the record.

22 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay. Clear for the 
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1 record that, at this point, all historic 

2 NIOSH-initiated meetings, or the basic 

3 information for a meeting is in the database.

4 MR. ELLIOTT: NIOSH.

5 MS. ELLIOTT: NIOSH-initiated 

6 meetings.

7 MR. ELLIOTT: So it doesn't 

8 include the previous ORAU --

9 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: It does?

11 MS. ELLIOTT: Not as far as site 

12 files, but as far as just the information for 

13 the meetings that have happened in the past at 

14 this point.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: All right.

16 MS. ELLIOTT: In fact, in tab 4, I 

17 have included a comprehensive listing of all 

18 of the meetings that have been entered in 

19 here.

20 MEMBER BEACH: Mary, do you have 

21 another one of these? My tab 2 only has one 

22 page.
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1 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay. So anyway, 

2 just for future reference, I'm not going to go 

3 over tab 4 and 5. But tab 4 has a 

4 comprehensive listing of all of the meetings 

5 that have been held to date.

6 Tab 5 is the procedure 12, just 

7 for future reference, if anybody needs that. 

8 So we're going to go back to the overview of 

9 the meeting information.

10 And you can start on the home 

11 screen to do this.

12 MR. McDOUGALL: What tab is this?

13 MS. ELLIOTT: Tab 3. The overview 

14 of the meeting information.

15 MR. ZEITOUN: Can I ask another 

16 question? I'm sorry.

17 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes, sure.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: Sure. Please.

19 MR. ZEITOUN: The yellow 

20 highlights --

21 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

22 MR. ZEITOUN: -- does it have any 
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1 significance of that?

2 MS. ELLIOTT: I just selected that 

3 one to show that you can --

4 MR. ELLIOTT: Illustration 

5 purposes?

6 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes. If you did 

7 select that hourglass, it would open up just 

8 that meeting.

9 MR. ZEITOUN: Okay.

10 MS. ELLIOTT: And you'd have all of 

11 that specific meeting information, which we're 

12 going to go into next.

13 MR. ZEITOUN: Thanks.

14 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay. So basically 

15 from any screen in the Outreach Tracking 

16 System, you can look at meetings. There are 

17 some drop-down tabs at the top. And you can 

18 see those on figure 3-1.

19 At the top, the very top there, it 

20 says, Meetings. And when you pull the 

21 drop-down, you can either add a meeting or 

22 view meetings, but then it's broken up by View 
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1 all meetings, View open meetings, or View 

2 closed meetings.

3 MR. ZEITOUN: But you're saying 

4 open meeting is the coming up, the ones that 

5 are coming in the future.

6 MS. ELLIOTT: Correct. And those 

7 are defined here in this overview that I 

8 wrote.

9 MR. ZEITOUN: Right.

10 MS. ELLIOTT: Basically on the 

11 home screen of the meeting screen, you're 

12 going to see anything that's still open for 

13 all sites. Say if we had five meetings 

14 scheduled, there would be five listings there.

15 You could go into any one of them 

16 by using the hourglass, and that's a read-only 

17 function at this point for most people, or you 

18 can filter by sites. Where it says, Filter 

19 site, there's a drop-down list, and you can 

20 choose any site to see only meetings for that 

21 site. That's the same for any of these three 

22 tabs, whether it's all, or open, or closed.
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1 So figure 3-2 I've pulled up again 

2 Hanford for the closed meetings. I've 

3 filtered out the Hanford site for the closed 

4 meetings, and the listing there is all the 

5 meetings, outreach events, we've had for 

6 Hanford.

7 And if you go on to figure 3-3, 

8 which is a few pages back, again I highlighted 

9 the hourglass to show that you go to this 

10 particular meeting by doing that.

11 And if you flip on, then figure 

12 3-4 shows what the meeting screen is like. So 

13 in particular, in 3-4, it shows that we had 

14 this NIOSH workshop on dose reconstruction and 

15 special exposure cohort in March, and the 

16 audience was a group of invited individuals 

17 that were interested in this process. And 

18 then the notes have a little more specific 

19 information about the meeting.

20 There's also the ability to add 

21 multiple sites. And you can do that using the 

22 little clock down there.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: These were the sites 

2 that were represented at that workshop?

3 MS. ELLIOTT: Right. If an HP at 

4 that meeting had an item they wanted to 

5 address and they wanted to do it within a 

6 specific amount of time, they can enter an 

7 action item.

8 And, again, figure 3-5 shows how 

9 to add that. For that particular meeting, 

10 there are no action items. We have not 

11 populated anything with capped action items in 

12 any meetings at this point, but for the future 

13 on, we will be working with getting those 

14 action items in, getting the time frame set to 

15 complete the action item.

16 And then there is an e-mail 

17 notification system. If that date goes over, 

18 then the HP is made aware that, "Hey, you said 

19 you were going to do this. But you haven't. 

20 So let's get it done."

21 We can also add --

22 MR. ELLIOTT: So we are giving 
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1 them the suspense trigger here.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Right. I can see 

3 that, yes.

4 MS. ELLIOTT: Also we have the 

5 ability to reach a group of people through 

6 using the NOCTIS system. Say if for a 

7 particular outreach event we wanted to invite 

8 all of the claimants that were in a 50-mile 

9 radius of that site.

10 Then we would send a template to 

11 our technical solutions team. They would 

12 generate all of those names. And then we 

13 would send those out. So we could reach 

14 however many people that would be in that 

15 list.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: And then so those 

17 would be shown under "Meeting Notifications?"

18 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes, they would. 

19 And then we would show what group that we 

20 reached out to and --

21 MR. ZEITOUN: Can I ask you a 

22 question and even go back to 3-6?
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1 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes, sir.

2 MR. ZEITOUN: How do you define 

3 recipient criteria? What is the meaning of 

4 that in a simpler --

5 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay. For example, 

6 if the meeting is an SEC town hall meeting for 

7 Brookhaven --

8 MR. ZEITOUN: Right.

9 MS. ELLIOTT: -- and we want to 

10 invite everyone who has an interest via a 

11 claim. There would be information in NOCTIS 

12 for those people --

13 MR. ZEITOUN: Right.

14 MS. ELLIOTT: -- their addresses, 

15 their contact information. And the NIOSH 

16 technical solutions team has the ability to 

17 query their system to pull out a certain group 

18 of people; for instance, any claimant who 

19 lived within a 50-mile radius of the 

20 Brookhaven site.

21 MR. ZEITOUN: So this would be 

22 stated in here?
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1 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

2 MR. ZEITOUN: Why did you select 

3 this group? Why did you invite these people? 

4 As you define it in here, this is exactly the 

5 definition for --

6 MS. ELLIOTT: This would be the 

7 definition for a technical solutions team to 

8 pull the query for those names.

9 MR. ELLIOTT: Who gets notified?

10 MS. ELLIOTT: Right.

11 MR. ZEITOUN: So you have that in 

12 a database in this case. You put this 

13 criteria, it's already well established. By 

14 the time you put them in, it will be pulled 

15 in, into this.

16 MS. ELLIOTT: Absolutely. Also 

17 when a meeting is arranged and as it 

18 progresses through this cycle going to 

19 closure, we have the ability to add the files 

20 that relate to that meeting. And that is in 

21 figure 3-7. And the people who write 

22 permissions can add any file that is related 
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1 to that meeting.

2 So here this one, in particular, 

3 shows where we have -- it shows the 

4 presentations. It shows any communications we 

5 had with the people that were at this meeting. 

6 It shows the minutes -- well, if there were 

7 minutes of the meeting, if it was a public 

8 outreach meeting or whatever, there would be 

9 minutes listed in here.

10 So any file that has to do with 

11 this particular meeting is here. And by 

12 clicking on the file name, whoever is looking 

13 at it can view the file.

14 MR. ELLIOTT: If this was an 

15 interview, set of interview notes, then the 

16 DOE-approved notes would be here. And a 

17 summary that would be used for public display 

18 would be sent here.

19 MS. ELLIOTT: Right, anything that 

20 would be useful to the HP in analyzing what 

21 needs to be known, I guess.

22 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Can I ask a 
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1 question?

2 MS. ELLIOTT: Sure.

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Go back to 

4 figure 3.2.

5 MS. ELLIOTT: Okay.

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Are these 

7 all the meetings in the system for Hanford?

8 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay.

10 MS. ELLIOTT: When you view closed 

11 meetings and filter a site, it will be any.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: The closed meetings. 

13 This is all the closed meetings.

14 MS. ELLIOTT: Right. You could 

15 also look at all of the meetings, but this, in 

16 particular, I wanted to show that it will pull 

17 up closed meetings by selecting that site 

18 under closed meetings. These are past.

19 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: So if, say, 

20 Sam Glover and crew came out and they brought 

21 in a small group of HPs to interview --

22 MS. ELLIOTT: Now that would be a 
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1 different sort of thing. That is not by --

2 MR. ELLIOTT: Should be in here, 

3 but it is not in here. We want that in here, 

4 but right now what she has populated this with 

5 is those meetings that Mary knew about and had 

6 been tracking.

7 MEMBER MUNN: As worker outreach.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: And this goes back 

9 to what we were talking about earlier. And 

10 now we haven't engaged our health physicist 

11 point of contacts for sites fully yet to make 

12 sure that they are operating within the system 

13 the way that we want them to. That is coming.

14 MS. ELLIOTT: That's all. The tab 

15 4 is the closed meetings, and that goes from 

16 the first outreach in 2003 with the workers at 

17 Savannah River site. And it goes all the way 

18 up through our latest, which was actually a 

19 meeting that Lori and Mark went to.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: This is a work in 

21 progress. We wanted something that had broad 

22 utility for the Outreach Program and tied in 
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1 with other parts of the program, like dose 

2 reconstruction, SEC petitions, those kinds of 

3 things.

4 And certainly we are interested 

5 and we would welcome thoughts and comments 

6 about what bells, whistles, and features to 

7 add to this that we are confident that we can 

8 add those kinds of things. We just haven't.

9 We wanted to show what we have got 

10 thus far. And we're starting to work with it 

11 now. And so it can be improved upon and 

12 modified as --

13 MEMBER BEACH: Well, I think our 

14 workgroup will probably task SC&A with 

15 reviewing or auditing or however we describe 

16 that. How soon will we be able to have access 

17 to go ahead and get on that system?

18 MR. ELLIOTT: Do we have an answer 

19 on that, J. J.?

20 MR. JOHNSON: What was that again?

21 MR. ELLIOTT: Do you know how soon 

22 the Board members and SC&A are going to have 
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1 access to this?

2 MR. JOHNSON: It all depends upon 

3 based upon the feedback I've gotten is their 

4 security within the TST process.

5 MEMBER BEACH: So once we're 

6 through the security process, will we have 

7 automatic access or will we have to go in and 

8 get passwords for this system?

9 MR. JOHNSON: I can't answer that 

10 one.

11 MR. ELLIOTT: Let's get an answer 

12 from Leroy. And we'll provide the Working 

13 Group an answer from our TST folks. This is 

14 housed, resident in what we call our NOCTIS 

15 tools, which is -- not NOCTIS tools. It's 

16 OCAS tools, OCAS tools. And so in that suite 

17 of applications, this exists.

18 The SEC viewer, which is another 

19 database application for our SEC petitions, 

20 NOCTIS, our claims tracking system, they're 

21 all housed in the suite of tools, application 

22 of tools.
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1 And it's not clear to me whether 

2 or not the IT folks are going to place the 

3 Board and SC&A into that or there will be 

4 another set-aside, replicated version of this 

5 that you can get access to. So we will have 

6 to find out where Leroy is at on all of that.

7 I know you want access to this as 

8 soon as you can. And we would like that, too, 

9 but --

10 MEMBER MUNN: This is an 

11 excellent, excellent body of information I 

12 have.

13 MR. MAURO: This is John. I've 

14 got a quick question. Right now we compile 

15 individual interviews, whether we're reviewing 

16 the site profile, SEC petition, and we have 

17 notes taken by person. And then, of course, 

18 we collect them all up and write attachments 

19 that go into our major products that we submit 

20 to the Board.

21 Is it envisioned that the 

22 individual interview notes that we collect 
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1 during this process will make it into this 

2 database as part of the overall program-wide 

3 database for outreach?

4 MR. ELLIOTT: John, this is Larry. 

5 We envision not only your interview notes 

6 that are released from DOE's review. Any 

7 summary you put together of those notes as 

8 well as our interview notes and summary would 

9 be placed in the site research database folder 

10 for that site.

11 And where you see -- you don't 

12 have the luxury of this, John, but on these 

13 screen shots that Mary has shown the members 

14 present here, there are files that we can then 

15 have a link to that site research database 

16 that says, "SC&A Interview Notes," "SC&A 

17 Summary."

18 MR. MAURO: So, in principles, 

19 everything that anyone could really wish to 

20 have in terms of at their fingertips related 

21 to information acquired from outreach 

22 programs, information collection programs, 
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1 will in theory in the future, once this is off 

2 and running, be present and available to the 

3 program team. That includes NIOSH, the Board, 

4 and its contractors. Is that a fair 

5 statement?

6 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes.

7 MR. MAURO: That being the case, 

8 then --

9 MR. ELLIOTT: J. J.? J. J. wants 

10 to correct me perhaps.

11 MR. MAURO: Go ahead.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: I have my vision.

13 MR. JOHNSON: It's a good vision.

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. JOHNSON: The information 

16 needs to go into the SRDB. And then the SRDB, 

17 the information is retrieved from there. How 

18 the information from SC&A interviews gets into 

19 the SRDB is one issue. It could be also 

20 presumed that it can go through the OTS 

21 process --

22 MR. ELLIOTT: Which is? OTS? 
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1 That's this process?

2 MR. JOHNSON: Right. but it 

3 would have to get to us somehow in order for 

4 it to go in there because we are the ones that 

5 put the documents in the system.

6 Additionally, when it comes to 

7 getting OTS documents into the SRDB, we have 

8 to work with ORAU in order to set up a process 

9 so that once instead of putting it in OTS and 

10 then having ORAU put it into the SRDB or into 

11 another system over there, we want to do it 

12 once.

13 So doing it once, we would give it 

14 to ORAU. ORAU would input it into the system. 

15 It would go into the SRDB as well as 

16 straightforward from there so that we don't 

17 have duplication, we don't have to make CDs.

18 But it could also go from -- and 

19 then the reason I said that is because ORAU 

20 has an SRDB. OCAS has an SRDB. And they 

21 talk, but they don't talk.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: We both populate.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: We both populate.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: And then they both 

3 get replicated.

4 MR. JOHNSON: That's right. And 

5 what I do is make sure that it is only 

6 populated once and it is replicated in both at 

7 the same time as a mirror image. So it has 

8 got to go to ORAU and then come back over to 

9 us on our SRDB.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Now, okay. Just a 

11 moment. For those of us who are functioning 

12 at 15 percent today, tell me what SRDB means.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: SRDB is a site 

14 research database.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Okay.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: ORAU manages that 

17 database.

18 MEMBER MUNN: I just needed to 

19 know its name. I thought I was hearing DD for 

20 one thing.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: No.

22 MEMBER MUNN: All right. Got it. 
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1 Thank you.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: And the OTS is the 

3 Outreach Tracking System.

4 MEMBER MUNN: I've got that in 

5 front of me. I can read this part.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: And to get at, John, 

7 I think what J. J. is answering your question 

8 --

9 MR. MAURO: He is.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: -- is that right now 

11 let's say we're talking about Mound and Brant 

12 is interested in the SC&A interviews that were 

13 done at Mound back in the day.

14 MR. MAURO: Yes.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: And so as soon as 

16 DOE has cleared those and you have a cleared 

17 version and you have a written summary, 

18 somebody at SC&A would turn those over to 

19 Brant.

20 Brant would then be responsible to 

21 see that J. J. either got them or that J. J. 

22 knew they were going to get entered into the 
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1 SRDB so that OTS could pick them up.

2 MR. MAURO: What I am hearing is 

3 wonderful. Let me explain where I am headed 

4 with this because I have something in my head 

5 now, that all of the information regarding 

6 what has been provided to NIOSH and to the 

7 Board and SC&A by all of these different 

8 parties that we gather information from is 

9 going to populate this database.

10 The mechanics of it, of course, 

11 are going to be challenging. It will take 

12 some time. We have been through that with 

13 regard to the Procedures Workgroup, getting 

14 everything mechanized and linked up.

15 But it sounds to me that the 

16 intent is to load this information and so that 

17 it is accessible. Given that, then I guess I 

18 would raise the question we're halfway home. 

19 The information is out there, then, related to 

20 what information has been provided to the 

21 program by the claimants; petitioners; 

22 experts, site experts; et cetera, et cetera. 
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1 It's going to be there, and there's going to 

2 be a record.

3 Now the question becomes, what 

4 role should the Board play in reviewing that 

5 material, reviewing the degree to which it has 

6 been faithfully captured, and reviewing the 

7 degree to which that material finds its way 

8 into the work products produced by the Board?

9 Actually, see, what I see here, 

10 the hard part of the problem is well in hand, 

11 namely collecting the information and putting 

12 it into an accessible location where people 

13 could review it. The second half now is 

14 almost a judgment call that needs to be made 

15 by the Board and this workgroup as to what do 

16 we want to do with that information in 

17 fulfilling our mandate as a workgroup.

18 So I didn't realize that that was 

19 the direction that NIOSH was going. And I 

20 think that this is great.

21 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Can we make 

22 one comment here?
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: What do you 

3 propose to do about interviews that will 

4 remain classified?

5 MR. ELLIOTT: The interviews that 

6 remain classified are held by DOE.

7 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Right. Are 

8 we going to put a notification in the database 

9 that says there's something out there?

10 MR. ELLIOTT: I think that's a 

11 suggestion that we could entertain. It's our 

12 hope that we have a cleared version that we 

13 can use here.

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Which we 

15 can.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: And behind the 

17 cleared versions, is it important that we 

18 document or flag the fact that there is a 

19 non-cleared version at DOE? We should talk 

20 about that, I guess.

21 I can see the benefit to the 

22 Board. I don't know that I see the benefit to 
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1 a dose reconstructor.

2 MS. ELLIOTT: Let me say also that 

3 if we don't have a specific file, there is no 

4 vehicle for putting that in because you must 

5 have a file to enter that.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, we could make 

7 a file. We could make a memo to the file that 

8 says, "There are classified interview notes 

9 held by DOE, and the attached summary 

10 represents the cleared version."

11 MEMBER MUNN: Well, is not the use 

12 of the word "cleared" indicative of the fact 

13 that there is a previous one?

14 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, that's --

15 MEMBER MUNN: Any time you say 

16 it's cleared, that automatically means there 

17 was something that needed to be cleared.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: No. It's been 

19 reviewed. It could be reviewed and found not 

20 to contain any classified information. And 

21 that stands up as a cleared document. So it 

22 doesn't imply that there's something still, 
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1 different hidden behind the screen.

2 MEMBER MUNN: There must be some 

3 terminology that we can use that can avoid --

4 MR. MAKHIJANI: This is Arjun. If 

5 there were a classified interview, wouldn't 

6 the original one have classification marks on 

7 every page?

8 And so to create a declassified 

9 version, presumably there would be a 

10 declassification markup on the signature.

11 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, it 

12 only happens in a couple of situations that I 

13 can think of. But there are situations where 

14 you lose too much in the declassification 

15 process and you want to maintain the originals 

16 and what we release as part of our report has 

17 been declassified and made publicly releasable 

18 --

19 MEMBER MUNN: There's the proper 

20 semantics then, the difference between 

21 declassified and cleared. You've indicated 

22 it's a declassified instrument, then it 
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1 automatically tells anyone who is reading it 

2 that somewhere there is a classified version.

3 If it says, "Cleared," it simply 

4 means it's okay.

5 MR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. I agree with 

6 Wanda. I think if the original one is 

7 classified, you know, presumably it can be 

8 maintained somewhere, you know, within the DOE 

9 or NIOSH system.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: NIOSH can't maintain 

11 it.

12 MR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. So within 

13 the DOE system, then. And then there would be 

14 a declassification mark in it with a signature 

15 of the declassification officer, which would, 

16 I presume, be sufficient.

17 MR. ELLIOTT: You know, it may be 

18 an issue for SC&A. And it may be an issue for 

19 the Board. But it is not an issue for NIOSH. 

20 And so I think you guys have got to take it 

21 up as an issue of yours and figure out how to 

22 resolve it.
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1 I don't have a lot of interest in 

2 putting something into the OTS, Outreach 

3 Tracking System, that says there is a 

4 classified document at DOE because to me that 

5 raises a flag. And we work hard to make sure 

6 that the documents we put out in the public 

7 have been approved and cleared for that 

8 purpose so that we're not talking about 

9 something that can't be talked about.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. Yes.

11 MR. ELLIOTT: And I have not seen 

12 anything yet that has been left in a 

13 derivative classifier's office that impeded, 

14 prohibited, obstructed our ability to do dose 

15 reconstruction. I have not seen that yet.

16 That's not saying you've not seen 

17 it, but I've not seen it. You know, you may 

18 find it important, but we have to look at it 

19 and judge whether it is important in our 

20 minds. But right now we have not seen 

21 anything held back that we felt we had to have 

22 in order to reconstruct dose.
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1 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I can 

2 definitely think of one situation where --

3 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes. And I would go 

4 along with Larry that the issue, the objective 

5 of it, is the dose reconstruction. If the 

6 declassifier decided that certain 

7 terminologies and certain information could 

8 not be divulged to the public, then it has to 

9 be removed.

10 So one in 100 cases or 100 

11 interviews, that to me is statistically 

12 insignificant. But I agree there are certain 

13 cases. But the bottom line is, would that 

14 impact the dose reconstruction?

15 MR. ELLIOTT: I mean, it shouldn't 

16 preclude SC&A from selecting language or using 

17 words in creating the summary or calling 

18 attention to the fact that maybe some of the 

19 interview notes that have been cleared, there 

20 are interview notes at DOE that are still 

21 classified.

22 You could couch that. And we'll 
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1 still capture it in here. But I don't see, 

2 you know --

3 MR. ZEITOUN: This would affect 

4 your dose reconstruction. That is the bottom 

5 line.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: If it doesn't affect 

7 it, it doesn't become a serious issue.

8 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: There is 

9 always -- you know, we always do and 

10 unredacted version regardless -- sorry, a 

11 redacted version of any notes that --

12 MR. MAURO: This is no different 

13 than the documents that are loaded into the 

14 site query database or the O: drive. You 

15 know, documents are loaded all of the time. 

16 And these are cleared. And they are available 

17 to the people who have access to either 

18 perform dose reconstructions or review site 

19 profiles or review evaluation reports.

20 When I see of this database now is 

21 just one more database of information that is 

22 not a document now. It is interview notes or 
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1 information provided to NIOSH and to SC&A that 

2 is loaded up and is available for review as 

3 part of the work we all do.

4 Whether it's reviewing a dose 

5 reconstruction, reviewing a site profile, it's 

6 almost it's sort of like just one more source 

7 of technical information that will help us put 

8 out a better product.

9 So whether or not there is some 

10 aspect to it that went through a 

11 classification, just like a document, an 

12 interview goes through a clearance process, 

13 just like documents do.

14 So I think what finally makes it 

15 into this database will be just like documents 

16 that make it into the O: drive. So I don't 

17 know whether or not this is an important issue 

18 if there is no difference between this 

19 information and the information that's in a 

20 document that finally makes it up and is 

21 available to all the workers, all the SC&A and 

22 NIOSH folks that use this information.
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1 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: It was just 

2 a question because there are going to be 

3 complete sets of interview notes that are not 

4 going to be able to be put in there.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: Just like there were 

6 probably documents that cannot be put in 

7 there, not that I am saying it is a 

8 non-problem. I am saying that we have the 

9 problem anyway in terms of the material we all 

10 have access to in NOCTIS, it has to be 

11 material that is not classified or raises 

12 those concerns. So we are operating in that 

13 world already.

14 MEMBER MUNN: I am just a little 

15 confused as far as I'm not as familiar with 

16 the SC&A process. We're talking about putting 

17 SC&A notes into OTS. Does that mean that if 

18 NIOSH holds a worker outreach meeting and SC&A 

19 interviews workers at that meeting or SC&A or 

20 the Board Workgroup has their own meeting, 

21 where NIOSH isn't at. That meeting is then 

22 going to be put into OTS as well.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: We have a general 

2 agreement that as we each develop information, 

3 like interview notes, summaries of interviews, 

4 that we share those across the board, that 

5 everybody knows what has been learned.

6 MEMBER MUNN: So there is a 

7 meeting next week or next month, whenever we 

8 get this --

9 MR. ELLIOTT: If they're doing an 

10 SC&A evaluation and they interview people --

11 MEMBER MUNN: We put it in OTS, 

12 e-mail it to the appropriate people. Then 

13 when they're done, it comes up. Okay. I was 

14 just making sure. I understand that.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, I think that, 

16 you know, if the Board and SC&A want to 

17 utilize OTS that way, why not accommodate 

18 them? I mean, if SC&A schedules an SEC 

19 outreach meeting, where they are going to 

20 interview a few people and they want to put 

21 the meeting in the notification aspect of OTS, 

22 they could ask us to do that, which would be 
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1 great because it gives guys like Brant a 

2 head's up there is going to be an interview 

3 done.

4 MEMBER BEACH: Or vice versa.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: Or vice versa.

6 MS. BREYER: Yes. That's good.

7 MEMBER BEACH: So are we at lunch 

8 time now?

9 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: So what actions 

10 or things need to go on that are holding us up 

11 from defining our role or is there any? I 

12 mean, I guess --

13 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, we owe you two 

14 action items right now, that I know of, --

15 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Right.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: -- where we are 

17 going to categorize our outreach efforts. I 

18 think J. J. has already taken a note on that. 

19 The other action items is we are going to get 

20 an answer from our IT folks on when you are 

21 going to get access to this OTS.

22 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay.
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1 MEMBER BEACH: And, then, what 

2 about the mission statement? Is NIOSH going 

3 to review the mission statement? Because we 

4 need to clarify that, I believe.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: We can review it if 

6 that is what you wish.

7 MR. KATZ: That is the Working 

8 Group's mission.

9 MR. ELLIOTT: It is your mission 

10 statement.

11 MR. KATZ: That doesn't have to be 

12 reviewed by --

13 MEMBER BEACH: So we can develop 

14 the mission statement and just that is our 

15 mission statement? It doesn't --

16 MR. KATZ: For the Working Group?

17 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes.

19 MEMBER BEACH: Okay.

20 MR. KATZ: I mean, that is what 

21 you propose to the full Board.

22 MEMBER BEACH: Right. I guess it 
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1 needs to be agreed upon, though, so that we 

2 can propose it at --

3 MR. ZEITOUN: There is one issue 

4 that is remaining. It's going back to what 

5 Larry is saying, is we need to get from them 

6 an input probably if we can expedite the 

7 degree of what type of outreach things so we 

8 can refine our definition of the outreach so 

9 we can see what they have.

10 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

11 MR. ZEITOUN: And I think this is 

12 probably what you are trying to achieve, just 

13 to get something out of NIOSH to refocus the 

14 mission statement. And then after that it is 

15 yours. You can do whatever you want to.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: I mean, we can do 

17 that in real time if you want. We could spend 

18 probably 15 minutes after lunch or during 

19 lunch and come in with categories about 

20 reconstruction if that would be helpful.

21 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Let's do that, 

22 but I don't think we can make a complete 
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1 mission statement until we -- it would be 

2 incomplete if we do it without that.

3 MR. ZEITOUN: Because if we go to 

4 all means, the Board, the Working Group and 

5 NIOSH together and to the Board with an 

6 understanding of what the --

7 MR. MAURO: What I just heard, 

8 though, something that is very encouraging to 

9 me, is that in the three major areas that have 

10 been drafted as part of the mission -- now, 

11 whether we stay with that, of course, that 

12 could change, but what this means is item 

13 number 3 can be done.

14 In other words, if the workgroup 

15 and the Board make a judgment that one of the 

16 roles of the Board is to monitor the impact of 

17 public input on dose reconstruction programs, 

18 site profiles, and site-specific petitions, 

19 the machinery is being put in place that will 

20 allow that to be done.

21 And the way that is done, of 

22 course, is to review those records, review the 
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1 information that was provided and loaded into 

2 this tracking system. And that would be the 

3 Board would do this and determine the degree 

4 to which the site profiles, the dose 

5 reconstructions, and the evaluation reports 

6 have taken into consideration all of that 

7 information.

8 So, I mean, if the machinery is in 

9 place to allow item number 3 of the mission 

10 statement to be performed -- and that's 

11 important.

12 MEMBER MUNN: After we have 

13 clarified what item number 2 is.

14 MR. MAURO: Yes. We haven't 

15 talked about 1 and 2 yet. But, I mean, what I 

16 am listening to is while we were discussing 

17 this, I was thinking in terms of the mission 

18 statements because I would suspect that one of 

19 the main objectives of this meeting today is 

20 to come to a place where we agree that there 

21 is a need for a mission statement and whether 

22 or not the draft mission statement, as it 
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1 currently is, is what the workgroup feels it 

2 would like to bring to the full Board.

3 And what I am getting at is that 

4 we have reached a point where it seems that if 

5 the workgroup decides yes, we would like to 

6 have number 3 as one of our missions, it can

7 be done because the machinery and information 

8 gathering is being put in place which will 

9 allow the Board to do those things.

10 MR. ZEITOUN: John, this is Abe. 

11 You know, the way I understand it, number 1, 

12 2, and 3 are doable. The issue here is be 

13 sure of identifying the meetings, the concept 

14 of meetings. And that is what we are really 

15 trying to put the bracket around after lunch.

16 MR. MAURO: Okay.

17 MR. ZEITOUN: I understand that 

18 the three of them are really doable. And I 

19 don't see from the meeting that there is 

20 anything that is really creating any problems. 

21 It's just the group, especially the Board 

22 members, are really interested in defining 
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1 what are the meetings, --

2 MR. MAURO: I understand.

3 MR. ZEITOUN: -- how the NIOSH and 

4 us get together on defining that. I think 

5 that is --

6 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. That is key.

7 MR. MAKHIJANI: This is Arjun. 

8 Before you break up for lunch, could I say one 

9 more thing?

10 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Sure.

11 MR. MAKHIJANI: In regard to the 

12 mission statement, we have discussed -- and I 

13 don't know where it's going to come up or 

14 whether -- how the Board for itself wants to 

15 track the comments that are made before the 

16 Board. Is this the proper forum? Does that 

17 need to be included in your mission statement?

18 MEMBER MUNN: Well, it may be, 

19 Arjun, but please bear in mind that I can't 

20 speak for the other Board members, but I have 

21 only seen this draft as of this morning and 

22 have not had an opportunity to comment on it. 
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1 We haven't really and truly gone that far. 

2 We have just received this.

3 MR. MAKHIJANI: Okay.

4 MEMBER MUNN: So until we've 

5 reached the point where we around this table 

6 have agreed that this is the document that we 

7 want, we probably can't go too far afield from 

8 that.

9 MR. MAKHIJANI: Okay. John, it's 

10 a question that we raised before.

11 MR. MAURO: Yes. That is another 

12 aspect of, in theory, the scope of this 

13 workgroup that I guess we will eventually get 

14 to, but right now it seems to me that the 

15 mission statement -- when I came into this 

16 meeting, I guess I had it in my mind that we 

17 have a draft mission statement. The question 

18 becomes, is this the mission statement that 

19 the workgroup would like to use or some 

20 modification of it?

21 So I have been operating from that 

22 frame of reference and with the idea that, 
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1 okay, if the workgroup decides yes, this is 

2 basically what the mission should be, then I 

3 ask myself: a lot of the information I am 

4 listening to, can we actually implement it? 

5 And number three seems to be one that we can 

6 actually implement, if so desired.

7 But Abe pointed out that there are 

8 bigger questions. What are all the different 

9 kinds of things that are going on? And what 

10 role would the Board choose to play in 

11 participating or reviewing that?

12 But then at the back end of this 

13 process is this matter of -- and I don't know 

14 if everyone on the workgroup might be aware of 

15 this, but one of the things that we have been 

16 talking about amongst ourselves at SC&A is the 

17 subject of we do have these full Board 

18 meetings and these evening sessions, where 

19 lots and lots of comments are made. 

20 Suggestions, questions are raised, some of 

21 which, certainly only a small fraction of 

22 which, are ones that perhaps the Board might 
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1 feel it might have a role to respond to or to 

2 make sure they get responded to.

3 And this would be one of the 

4 elements of the possible mission of this 

5 workgroup that is not explicitly identified in 

6 this mission statement, the draft mission 

7 statement, but certainly something that 

8 probably needs to be discussed.

9 I would suggest we discuss it. 

10 But I think first on the agenda are the items 

11 we are talking about right now.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Well, but, John, as 

13 you know, typically in public meetings when 

14 there have been items raised which appear to 

15 have significant bearing on existing documents 

16 or on program process, it has usually been 

17 requested at the time that some member of the 

18 team meet with that individual to assure that 

19 the concern is adequately addressed.

20 MR. MAURO: Absolutely. And the 

21 only thing I thought about is that following 

22 up and tracking that and perhaps reporting at 
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1 the next meeting or to this workgroup the 

2 degree to which actions have been taken in 

3 accord with those statements made during the 

4 evening session.

5 So, the way I look at it is that 

6 an issue might be raised that the Board judges 

7 and makes a statement yes, this should be 

8 followed up on and maybe makes a suggestion on 

9 how to do that.

10 Once that is triggered, the 

11 question becomes, should the Board track this 

12 to ensure that, in fact, the person that 

13 raised the question or is seeking some

14 information does, in fact, achieve 

15 satisfaction and gets a response to his 

16 question?

17 The question I guess I am putting 

18 on the table is: is this something that the 

19 Board might want to do and actually become 

20 part of its working session at the last day of 

21 the meeting to go over the degree to which the 

22 various items that were raised at the previous 
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1 meeting that might be of concern have, in 

2 fact, been addressed?

3 This is something we haven't 

4 talked about, but, Arjun, I am glad you 

5 brought it up because I have been thinking 

6 about this. And this is as good a time as any 

7 to just put it on the table.

8 MR. MAKHIJANI: That's all I 

9 wanted to do.

10 MR. MAURO: Yes.

11 MR. MAKHIJANI: That's the Working 

12 Group's pleasure when they want to take it up.

13 MR. MAURO: Yes, yes.

14 MEMBER BEACH: And, John, if I 

15 could cut in? This is Josie. On page 3 of 4, 

16 it is captured under the outreach methods, 

17 including the following. It is listed, public 

18 comment sessions, at the Advisory Board 

19 meetings.

20 MR. MAURO: Okay. Good. I missed 

21 it. I'm glad you pointed it out. I am glad 

22 to see it is there.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Lunch.

2 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: All in favor?

3 (Whereupon, there was a chorus of 

4 "Ayes.")

5 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: So we will break 

6 for lunch and then --

7 MEMBER MUNN: What time should we 

8 be back? Do we need an extra 15 minutes for 

9 NIOSH to pull together their comments, which 

10 would put us back at 20 minutes 'til?

11 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: That's fine.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: Sounds good to me.

13 MR. ZEITOUN: So what time are we 

14 here again?

15 MEMBER MUNN: 1:40.

16 MR. KATZ: 1:40 for folks on the 

17 phone.

18 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess was 

19 taken at 12:22 p.m.)

20

21

22
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 (1:42 p.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: Good afternoon. This 

4 is the Worker Outreach Working Group of the 

5 Advisory Board on Radiation Worker Health. 

6 And we are just getting restarted after a 

7 lunch break.

8 Mike?

9 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. Before 

10 lunch, we agreed that NIOSH was going to put 

11 together a list of the outreach activities for 

12 us so that we can help us define a mission 

13 statement.

14 So I think we will start by 

15 letting them give that to us and then maybe 

16 kind of refocus this afternoon on trying to 

17 get the mission statement defined and 

18 everything so we can get that kind of ironed 

19 down for the Advisory Board.

20 And then, of course, at 2:30, we 

21 have time on the agenda for workers, their 

22 representatives, and advocates to speak. And 
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1 we will stick to that time and give them the 

2 opportunity to speak then.

3 So, Larry?

4 LIST OF OUTREACH ACTIVITIES

5 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. well, we 

6 tried our best in a short amount of time to 

7 put something together for you on this flip 

8 chart. The folks online won't have the 

9 benefit of viewing this. I hope you can hear 

10 me.

11 So we have focused this on 

12 outreach meetings. And we recognize that 

13 there are a lot of communication vehicles that 

14 are used in different meetings.

15 We are not talking about 

16 communication right now. We are going to talk 

17 about outreach and meetings. And we see two 

18 different categories. We see those -- well, 

19 actually more than -- you will see it here. 

20 But there is a category of meeting where we 

21 are focused on giving out information, 

22 information giving. There is a category that 
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1 we think we clearly identify with as giving or 

2 gathering information, so information 

3 gathering.

4 And under those in a column 

5 fashion are what we think represent 

6 information giving by the SEC petition 

7 process, which is an education process. It's 

8 an outreach to provide education to 

9 petitioners, to potential people who want to 

10 be involved in the class.

11 And I have labeled that number one 

12 because to me right now, that is our primary 

13 outreach activity. There is a lot of that 

14 going on. Lori, the ombudsman, can talk to 

15 you about that. But right now that is a lot 

16 going on.

17 If I were to design this chart 

18 five years ago, this would not even be on the 

19 chart. If I designed it three years ago, this 

20 would be number one. So that's just to give 

21 you some concept, give you a little bit of my 

22 concept here.
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1 So number two primary effort right 

2 now in outreach is an information-gathering 

3 effort that occurs when we evaluate an SEC 

4 petition and when Brant Ulsh says for Mound, 

5 "I need to know more about neutron doses. So 

6 I am going to do an interview" or "I am going 

7 to assemble a focus panel out at Hanford" and 

8 Sam Glover runs out there and runs a list of 

9 questions in front of folks. That is our 

10 second primary effort that you see us doing 

11 right now in this kind of an outreach concept.

12 Our third primary outreach effort 

13 is under the information-giving category and 

14 revolves around town halls to educate folks 

15 about changes in our documents or to assist 

16 DOL in advising about addition of the class or 

17 something like that. So it's an educational 

18 process. It's another way we reach out and 

19 give information.

20 The fourth activity that I talk 

21 about is categorized under information 

22 gathering. And it goes to a focus of further 
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1 site profile technical basis document 

2 development.

3 Now, what have we got in the 

4 middle? Well, in the middle, we have got 

5 workshops, invited forums, and our website 

6 docket. And these we think are opportunities 

7 for outreach.

8 It goes both ways. It can be 

9 information giving in our workshop, and we can 

10 also gather information at that same time. 

11 Needless to say, we can do the same over here 

12 when we have a town hall. We can gather 

13 information. But typically that's a lower if 

14 it happens, it happens. But primarily we're 

15 trying to educate.

16 So we do attend invited forums. 

17 In May, first week in May I think it was, Stu 

18 Hinnefeld and Mark -- I don't know if Vern was 

19 there, but they went to the guards 

20 international --

21 MR. LEWIS: Yes. The guards --

22 MR. ELLIOTT: They had a 
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1 conference. NIOSH had a big conference. And 

2 they invited us.

3 MR. LEWIS: Council of Security 

4 Guards of the International.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: So we attended that. 

6 Stu Hinnefeld gave them a little bit of an 

7 introduction into what we do in the program. 

8 And I think there was an exchange there, too.

9 MR. LEWIS: DOL showed up, too.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. So we do that. 

11 Lori has attended a number of these kind of 

12 things, where advocates assemble a group of 

13 people and invite Lori or invite Denise Brock, 

14 the ombudsman, to come and sit with folks and 

15 talk with folks. So we do that.

16 Then we have our website and our 

17 Docket Office. And we think that is an 

18 outreach opportunity that not only allows us 

19 to give information. We show all of our 

20 documents in a very visible transparent mode 

21 on the website. We can also gather 

22 information from that.
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1 So I don't know if that helps you 

2 or not, but that is the way we see outreach 

3 activities. I think clearly our procedure 

4 talks about these four.

5 It doesn't talk about workshops. 

6 It doesn't talk about invited forums. And it 

7 doesn't really go into our website Docket 

8 Office. And perhaps it should. So we'll look 

9 into that ourselves. I can already see I can 

10 write you a recommendation forming that.

11 So I don't know. I don't know if 

12 there are questions about that, thoughts about 

13 that. That's just my attempt to answer your 

14 call for what outreach efforts do we have.

15 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. Anyone 

16 have any questions for Larry or --

17 MEMBER MUNN: Now, that is 

18 helpful. I hope we can incorporate that in 

19 our transcript in some way so that we can 

20 actually see what it -- so that we can have a 

21 better deal when we are putting together our 

22 final document as exactly where the limitation 
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1 is in what we're looking at.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, we can give 

3 this to you in a handout.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: We can put more --

6 MEMBER MUNN: That might be a good 

7 thing, maybe just an ordinary .pdf file.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. We can put 

9 more flesh on some of this, too. I mean, if 

10 you ask us things like, "Well, what record do 

11 you capture in number one?" versus "What 

12 record do you capture in number four?"; well, 

13 if there is a site profile technical basis 

14 document development when we sit down and ask 

15 a group of workers, you know, there are 

16 interviews. That is the type of document 

17 collected there.

18 But if you talk about number one, 

19 Lori would say, I hope, I think she would say, 

20 "Well, when we go out and we educate a bunch 

21 of people about SEC petition processing, we 

22 provide brochures and handouts. And we talk 
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1 about the Act."

2 And there are no summary minutes 

3 for that kind of a thing. There are no 

4 interview notes captured. Okay? So we can 

5 put more flesh on this if you want.

6 MEMBER MUNN: All of that 

7 information would be invaluable from a 

8 reviewing standpoint. And if it's possible to 

9 get a .pdf file out, you know, what you have 

10 there and single-page attachment with some 

11 additional points that you just made, that 

12 would be extremely helpful.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: I think we can do 

14 that. J. J.?

15 MR. JOHNSON: I got it.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: He's got it.

17 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Larry, 

18 where do the site expert interviews fall in?

19 MR. ELLIOTT: Site expert 

20 interviews would be something under number 

21 four. Perhaps it could be something under 

22 number two. It depends upon the motivation 
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1 for seeking out site experts.

2 MEMBER MUNN: So you can capture 

3 that in your page 2 explanations?

4 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. That's an 

5 element you want us to try.

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And what 

7 about comments made at Advisory Board 

8 meetings?

9 MR. ELLIOTT: I don't see them up 

10 there.

11 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: So that is 

12 outside the scope?

13 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, no. You know, 

14 I don't have our PHA involvement up there. 

15 Certainly that is something we could list as 

16 well. We will add that to our list.

17 Are there other things we have 

18 missed?

19 MEMBER BEACH: What actually gets 

20 put in the website docket? Is that the 

21 letters, e-mails, phone calls, things like 

22 that? Because those are things Lori mentioned 
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1 earlier.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: The website docket.

3 MEMBER BEACH: The website docket, 

4 yes.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. The website 

6 itself, as you know, provides a place for the 

7 public to view the documentation associated 

8 with this program.

9 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: And then we on our 

11 website invite people to provide written 

12 comments --

13 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

14 MR. ELLIOTT: -- and submit them 

15 to the NIOSH Docket Office. That is a 

16 requirement that we faced in the early days of 

17 this program when we started rulemaking and we 

18 wanted to carry it through to garner public 

19 comments on our rules, on our technical basis 

20 document approaches and use the Docket Office 

21 as a tracking mechanism.

22 It also was controlling in that it 
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1 forced the person to write down their 

2 thoughts, formulate their thoughts, and 

3 present them in writing. And then they would 

4 get a response back in writing as well.

5 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: So that's 

6 for things like --

7 MR. ELLIOTT: That we have got 

8 your receipt. We have your comments. We may 

9 not respond and say how we address it, but we 

10 do acknowledge receipt of the comments from 

11 the Docket Office.

12 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: So this is 

13 where things like the letters from 

14 [Identifying information redacted] would go?

15 MS. BREYER: Those go in the 

16 payment file. Letters and e-mails are going 

17 to go into NOCTIS and OSA.

18 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay.

19 MS. BREYER: Unless [Identifying 

20 information redacted] submitted comments on 

21 the site profile versus -- his comments are on 

22 dose reconstruction.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: I wish it were that 

2 clean. It's not that clean for this reason. 

3 You're talking about an individual who I am 

4 not sharing or divulging Privacy Act 

5 information. He is out there, and everybody 

6 knows he has a claim. Everybody else knows he 

7 is a petitioner. He wants everybody to know 

8 he is an advocate.

9 So when he submits information, it 

10 is an obligation placed upon us to figure out 

11 what he is submitting it under. Is it under 

12 his claim? It is under one of the petitions? 

13 Is it under just I want the Advisory Board to 

14 know about this issue? Okay?

15 So each one of those things 

16 depending upon what he was submitting under, 

17 the information would be placed differently. 

18 So we tried to encourage people like 

19 [Identifying information redacted] and 

20 [Identifying information redacted] when they 

21 have issues about our site profiles and 

22 technical basis documents to use the Docket 
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1 Office.

2 If they have concerns about the 

3 claims, we keep that separate from the Docket 

4 Office since they would submit that and place 

5 it in your claim file. And when it's an issue 

6 that they raise up regarding the petitioning 

7 process or the petition they have in place, it 

8 goes into our SEC viewer and the petition 

9 folder for that petition.

10 Does that help answer your 

11 question? So, I mean, I know it's confusing, 

12 but there's a rhyme and a reason behind why 

13 this gets separated the way it does.

14 And some of it is legal because if 

15 it's a claim-related issue, we have to attend 

16 to it within the claim under legal 

17 responsibility. If it's a petition-related 

18 issue, that is where we have got to make sure 

19 we document it.

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes. And I 

21 was thinking more along the lines of generic 

22 comments now about individual claims.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. So generic 

2 comments.

3 MR. KATZ: You are talking about 

4 --

5 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes, yes.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: We would welcome 

7 those at the Docket Office.

8 MR. ZEITOUN: So, in general, 

9 Larry, if I look at what is listed here, I 

10 think we are not far apart from that. You are 

11 dividing it by categories, and we are dividing 

12 it by specific elements, which is really --

13 well, we are not deviating very much from the 

14 --

15 MR. ELLIOTT: I don't want to be 

16 critical, but I would like to be constructive.

17 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes, yes, yes.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: And my take on your 

19 list here -- this list that Abe is speaking of 

20 is the list that is in the --

21 MR. ZEITOUN: Page 3.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: -- page 3 of 4 of 
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1 the mission statement. And it says, "NIOSH's 

2 and its contractors' outreach methods include 

3 the following."

4 And I would say that these are not 

5 so much outreach methods as different types of 

6 ways we communicate.

7 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes. Okay.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: These are 

9 communication vehicles or methods. These are 

10 outreach methods.

11 MR. ZEITOUN: Okay.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: And certainly we 

13 would use brochures in a number of these.

14 MR. ZEITOUN: Right, right.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: You know, in certain 

16 instances, we are required to use a Federal 

17 Register notice.

18 MR. ZEITOUN: Right, right.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: In others, we are 

20 not. So, you know, I just -- that would be my 

21 --

22 MR. ZEITOUN: No, no, no. I 
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1 appreciate what you are saying. You know, I 

2 really do.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Which means that if 

4 we are going to draw a line between 

5 communication and outreach, we need to call 

6 these NIOSH and its contractor communication 

7 methods and to include the following. And 

8 then the outreach portion of that would be 

9 better defined by the extension of what Larry 

10 has up there.

11 MR. ZEITOUN: You are right.

12 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: So you are 

13 suggesting divide it how on this?

14 MEMBER MUNN: I am not suggesting 

15 dividing them. I'm just --

16 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Draw the line 

17 between?

18 MEMBER MUNN: -- suggesting that 

19 these are types of communications, some of 

20 which are specifically outreach -- they say 

21 so, "site profile worker outreach meetings" --

22 and others of which are communications devices 
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1 but not necessarily all outreach activities.

2 The outreach meetings that we are 

3 going to focus on as a workgroup are the 

4 outreach meetings that NIOSH has 

5 responsibility for as -- and that's why we're 

6 asking, that's why I am asking that they be 

7 defined this way in order to identify what the 

8 universe of our work here is going to be.

9 MR. ELLIOTT: Sorry. I didn't 

10 mean to be a distraction, but I wanted to 

11 capture and add what Kathy suggested earlier, 

12 that Board meeting-public comment interactions 

13 --

14 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: -- public health 

16 adviser interviews.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: And as I sit here 

19 and think about it, I think it fits in that 

20 middle column because it's a give-and-take 

21 situation.

22 MEMBER BEACH: And then Phil 
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1 e-mailed a question. I just as well ask it 

2 now. When OCAS has any type of outreach 

3 meeting, what determines the information they 

4 retain? I think that was for you, Lori.

5 MS. BREYER: It depends on the 

6 type of outreach. What do you mean what 

7 information they retain? Do you mean if I go 

8 to a meeting or --

9 MEMBER BEACH: What notes? What 

10 notes do you keep? I think you said in 

11 previous meetings you might tape the whole 

12 thing but you may not transcribe it verbatim. 

13 So he is curious of how you decide what you 

14 transcribe or what notes you keep and what you 

15 don't.

16 MS. BREYER: Well, for 

17 information-gathering meetings, there are 

18 going to be minutes taken. And they're 

19 recorded. For the information --

20 MR. ELLIOTT: No, no, no. Let's 

21 be very clear about recordings. Our 

22 contractor, ATL, is allowed to use a recording 
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1 device.

2 MS. BREYER: Right.

3 MR. ELLIOTT: But the recording 

4 itself is not a deliverable under the 

5 contract. The recording is a tool that is 

6 allowed within their toolbox to create a set 

7 of summary minutes.

8 MEMBER BEACH: Okay. And I think 

9 that's kind of the question, but he is not 

10 concerned with the recording. He is concerned 

11 with -- and, Phil, if you are on the line, 

12 help me out if there is more that you want to 

13 know -- what makes you decide out of those, 

14 that recording, what you write down and 

15 actually retain and what you don't write down.

16 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes. This is 

17 Phil. I would like to know what the criteria 

18 is for what you retain and what you do not.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, I think this 

20 mainly is Mary Elliott's responsibility when 

21 she goes out and tags along on these field 

22 excursions gathering information.
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1 And I'm sure she has some 

2 structure she uses, but my answer to your 

3 question, Phil, would be that whatever salient 

4 information, whatever relevant information is 

5 coming out of that exchange should be 

6 documented in those minutes because what has 

7 an influence, effect on the dose 

8 reconstruction or an SEC petition evaluation 

9 of a site, those are things that we hope to 

10 gather in our efforts to obtain information 

11 and we want to make sure get placed in front 

12 of the right people in the program who can 

13 utilize that information and make change 

14 happen.

15 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Okay.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: So, Mary, do you 

17 have things you want to add to what I just 

18 said? I think that's exactly what you try to 

19 do. Do you have help from -- do you have 

20 help? She has help from usually the technical 

21 point of contact assigned to that site.

22 MS. ELLIOTT: I just try and make 
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1 the minutes a useful tool for the physicists 

2 to go back as a reference to the meeting.

3 MR. ELLIOTT: I think it is also 

4 important to note for you all that Mary 

5 assembles these minutes in a draft form. And 

6 we share them with the participants to get 

7 them to agree to the content. And they have 

8 an opportunity to say, "Hey, you missed the 

9 point. Why didn't you include what I said 

10 about" X?

11 And that is an opportunity for us 

12 to correct the minutes. It is an opportunity 

13 for us to go back to the individual and say, 

14 "Oh, well, we did miss that" or say, "Oh, 

15 well. Here is why we don't think that is 

16 important" unless you can shed more and a 

17 different light on it and show us the 

18 importance for dose reconstruction or an SEC 

19 petition evaluation.

20 So I want you to know that. And 

21 that's also why it takes some time in getting 

22 the summary minutes put up on the website so 
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1 everybody can see them because some of the 

2 folks that we try to get a review and edit 

3 from take a long time to do their job.

4 MS. ELLIOTT: We also --

5 MR. ELLIOTT: And we don't push 

6 them. I mean, we want them to feel 

7 discouraged by the process.

8 MS. ELLIOTT: I have been doing 

9 the minutes for four years. And in all the 

10 ones we have sent out to unions and other 

11 groups for review, we have never gotten a 

12 comment while I have been with the program. 

13 There have been other comments prior to that.

14 MR. ELLIOTT: A comment that said 

15 you missed the mark or --

16 MS. ELLIOTT: It's happened before 

17 but rarely, very rarely.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: Can you speak close 

19 to the mike?

20 MR. LEWIS: This is Mark Lewis. 

21 In the Idaho INEL earlier on, there were some 

22 comments that were mentioned before we had the 
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1 conflict of interest and stuff.

2 That's probably one of the things 

3 that helped lead to the conflict of interest 

4 stuff, were some of the comments and things 

5 that were mentioned.

6 In fact, we fought with that. And 

7 I encourage everybody in the workgroup to take 

8 a look at the NIOSH website and look 

9 underneath the minutes and look at that. That 

10 way it's kind of like, you know, that's the 

11 finished product of what we do there for the 

12 minutes.

13 MR. MAKHIJANI: Larry, this is 

14 Arjun.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, Arjun? Yes?

16 MR. MAKHIJANI: I had a question. 

17 At the last Board meeting if I am remembering 

18 right or the one before that, Emily had this 

19 question of what SC&A does with raw interview 

20 material. Now, we have done the recording, 

21 but we have raw notes that are quite detailed. 

22 And then we prepare these summaries.
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1 Emily said that these raw notes 

2 were to be maintained and should not be 

3 discarded. So I'm wondering, what is the 

4 difference between, say, the recordings that 

5 you make and the raw notes, you know, which 

6 are not verbatim but pretty close to 

7 everything that is said or as close to 

8 everything that is said as we can get?

9 So I am a little bit confused 

10 about not keeping the recordings, even though 

11 it is not a deliverable. Our raw notes that 

12 have not been proofed by people who are 

13 interviewed are not deliverables, but we are 

14 asked to maintain them.

15 John, am I remembering that right?

16 MR. KATZ: I can tell you, Arjun, 

17 you are remembering that correctly.

18 MR. MAKHIJANI: Okay.

19 MR. KATZ: I was present for those 

20 discussions. And that is correct. I don't 

21 know if someone from OGC is on the line right 

22 now. They might want to answer. I'm not sure 
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1 whether a recording is the same thing as a 

2 government record when it's written. I have 

3 no idea.

4 MR. MAKHIJANI: Okay.

5 MR. KATZ: And I have no idea 

6 about did on the --

7 MR. RAFKY: I would have to look 

8 into it. Unfortunately, Emily is not in the 

9 office this week. So before I answer 

10 definitively, I would just want to talk to her 

11 to get some more background from her since she 

12 has dealt with this previously.

13 I'm sure we could get back to you 

14 by the end of this week or the beginning of 

15 next week on this.

16 MR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. That would 

17 be helpful because we haven't made recordings 

18 so far. And, you know, I don't know whether 

19 we might want to revisit that or what, I mean, 

20 something obviously we would need to talk 

21 about if there is a difference.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. So basically 
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1 the question is, is a recording considered a 

2 government record for our purposes?

3 MR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. I guess that 

4 is the more precise. I wouldn't have known to 

5 put it that precisely, but yes, that's right. 

6 That's how Ted --

7 MR. RAFKY: Okay. Yes. Let me 

8 look into it and talk to Emily when she is 

9 back at the end of the week. And we can get 

10 back to Ted or if there is someone else we 

11 should get back to first, that would be fine.

12 MR. MAKHIJANI: Thank you.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: You are remembering 

14 it correctly, though, Arjun, and I would defer 

15 to the lawyers to provide the counsel on this. 

16 The counsel that I got when it came to the 

17 issue of these recordings was that they were 

18 not a government record but were not going to 

19 be FOIA-able.

20 Recordings do present if they 

21 become a part of the government record. We 

22 were given an understanding from some attorney 
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1 who is knowledgeable in this area that they 

2 present unique problems of their own.

3 How do you turn a recording into a 

4 verbatim transcript? You can do it, but now 

5 we're talking additional resources. And how 

6 do you store these things? Then there was how 

7 do you excerpt them, you know, if you want 

8 only a portion of what was said?

9 So there are a number of problems 

10 associated with retaining recordings as part 

11 of a government record.

12 MR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. No, I am not 

13 questioning. In this context, I am not 

14 questioning how you go about preparing the 

15 summaries and minutes and so on. It's just 

16 that I got confused about process and what is 

17 retained again by this discussion, as I was a 

18 little bit the last time. I just wanted some 

19 clarity.

20 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: While we are on 

21 the issue of notes and summaries of notes and 

22 things that are posted, let me just go back 
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1 for a minute and maybe revisit this issue of 

2 classified interviews and notes that are 

3 somehow clear or declassified and how they are 

4 posted.

5 Just brief conversation over 

6 lunch, I can see how that there can be 

7 significant information that a cleared person 

8 would need to go look at. How are you 

9 comfortable, Larry, that the notes that are 

10 posted are encompassing enough to get the 

11 information out there?

12 I guess I have heard Kathy's 

13 concern. And I see her side, but I want to 

14 hear your side about how you fill the clear 

15 notes without making reference to something 

16 that may still be classified.

17 MR. ELLIOTT: We do it all the 

18 time. We do it all the time. This is not 

19 something new. I am just amazed by this in a 

20 way.

21 From day one in this program, we 

22 have been working closely with DOE on making 
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1 sure that NIOSH's documentation and documents 

2 that get generated under this program are not 

3 classified information. And so in that 

4 process of working with DOE -- and maybe I'm 

5 amazed because it must be new to the Board and 

6 new to SC&A and it's not new to us. But we 

7 come to the ability where we can use different 

8 words and still reveal the information that is 

9 necessary for dose reconstruction.

10 So yes, there are many, many words 

11 and phrases that are kept in secret vaults at 

12 DOE that we don't talk about, but the words 

13 and phrases that we do use in our documents 

14 have been cleared so that we are not violating 

15 national security interests and at the same 

16 time demonstrating our ability in our 

17 communication about how we are doing our job.

18 You heard me take off in the last

19 Board meeting about the fact that I was not 

20 going to serve in this director of this office 

21 and see another Iowa situation where NIOSH 

22 presents something that it can't talk about 
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1 all the parameters and variables. I'm not 

2 going to do that.

3 Lawyers, they get their backs up 

4 in the air for that because when I say that, 

5 that starts putting pressure on other people. 

6 But I am not going to bring that to bear 

7 because I think we can actually bring to the 

8 public forum documentation and documents that 

9 have words and phrases that don't violate 

10 national security concerns.

11 We have done it. We have done it. 

12 We have demonstrated our ability to do it. 

13 And not in one instance have I -- I have a 

14 clearance. I'll just lay that out there. I 

15 do have a clearance. And I have the ability 

16 to go behind the screen and see what is left 

17 there that is not being talked about.

18 And I think it is important the 

19 Board members have clearances, SC&A have 

20 clearances, and they can do the same thing 

21 because the public, not all the public, are 

22 going to be able to have that privilege. So 
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1 we're serving as their servants to do that.

2 That's my take on it. I mean, you 

3 know, people can raise up an issue and make it 

4 out that there's something behind the screen. 

5 And let's say there's an issue about a 

6 facility and a special radionuclide used at 

7 that facility.

8 And someone could say that because 

9 you can't name the species of that 

10 radionuclide, you can't explain how you are 

11 doing dose reconstruction. I don't think we 

12 have ever seen that situation occur. I don't 

13 believe it is going to occur. I believe we 

14 have the ability to find words and phrases 

15 that don't block us into a black box type of 

16 an affair.

17 And certainly if anybody wants to 

18 see what words and phrases we can't use in the 

19 public, we have cleared people who can go do 

20 that. And we can engage in secure 

21 conversations with the appropriate and cleared 

22 people to examine these issues that are raised 
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1 up, you know, highly insoluble tritide that 

2 you can't talk about by name at a certain 

3 location.

4 Well, we can go talk about it. 

5 And my bet is that it will go away because 

6 there is some other word that we can use, like 

7 highly soluble tritide.

8 I've just used it three or four 

9 times here. If I had used one of many other 

10 words, I couldn't sit here in this room much 

11 longer because they would be beating down the 

12 door.

13 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Questions or 

14 comments on the issue of notes and the extent 

15 or summary of the notes, what they cover?

16 MR. ELLIOTT: I think that's 

17 something we can add to the flesh of this, 

18 where we take notes, are there summary minutes 

19 or interview notes, whether we have them or we 

20 don't, because there are some things that we 

21 don't.

22 MEMBER BEACH: I think we need a 
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1 clear place to go find those notes if we want, 

2 like we --

3 MR. ELLIOTT: That's what this 

4 would be, I think.

5 MEMBER BEACH: Exactly. I think 

6 that was part of the issues before with 

7 [Identifying information redacted]. We have 

8 already mentioned him. He is just one small 

9 example.

10 And now we know where they are 

11 posted, but I don't know if they are going to 

12 be all posted just like that.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: You're going to have 

14 to go three different places --

15 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: -- if you want to 

17 see information that is submitted by that 

18 individual.

19 MEMBER BEACH: Yes. And that's 

20 the clear path of this group, I think, is to 

21 be able to find all of those places and be 

22 able to look at those and not just for him but 
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1 for anyone in that situation where they are 

2 submitting stuff.

3 MR. KATZ: Just to clarify, under 

4 items 2 and 4 of this diagram, just since 

5 we're speaking about things being submitted, 

6 like [Identifying information redacted], I 

7 mean, in that case, these aren't interviews. 

8 These are documentation submitted. It's just 

9 another category of input versus an interview.

10 The program receives 

11 documentation, and SC&A also receives 

12 documentation that ends up in the site 

13 research database and will end up reflected in 

14 this new system, right?

15 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. Now, the 

16 question I would have is okay. So John has 

17 submitted something to on Nevada test site 

18 that goes to an SEC ER issue. Are we 

19 capturing that in the Outreach Tracking 

20 System? I mean, it's not outreach per se. 

21 It's incoming to us.

22 MR. KATZ: But you have your doors 
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1 open for people to come to you.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, through the 

3 docket. And that becomes through the docket 

4 door. I mean, I am just guessing.

5 MEMBER BEACH: See, but I consider 

6 it outreach because you have gone to meetings. 

7 He may have been involved in one of your 

8 outreach meetings and then later on went "Oh, 

9 I forgot about that. Here. Let me send you 

10 100 e-mails or one e-mail" or --

11 MR. ELLIOTT: So we should default 

12 to that.

13 MR. KATZ: In my mind, it's the 

14 same business. Your doors are open. You want 

15 input from the public. I mean, in 

16 [Identifying information redacted]'s case, he 

17 has submitted input through working group 

18 meetings, associated with working group 

19 meetings, and associated with full Board 

20 meetings, and independently of both of those, 

21 where I don't believe he sent things to the 

22 docket but he sent them directly to you as 
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1 well as to SC&A. It is the same intent, seems 

2 like they would all be reflected as --

3 MR. ZEITOUN: But the time it goes 

4 to him it goes to the docket.

5 MR. KATZ: Well, no. I don't 

6 think you brought it to the docket when it is 

7 sent to you.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: I want it sent to 

9 me. We don't typically, you know -- we may go 

10 back to the individual and suggest that they 

11 submit it for the docket.

12 MR. KATZ: Right.

13 MEMBER BEACH: But then I or this 

14 workgroup would want to know in his case that 

15 was done, you know, what he submitted, how it 

16 was handled, if it was or wasn't, what you did 

17 with it or didn't do with it. I mean, those 

18 are some of the tracking things.

19 MS. BREYER: So I think like if he 

20 submits an SEC evaluation report and goes 

21 through the consult call, we do that, just 

22 doesn't qualify, let's say, for example, and 
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1 then he sends ten pages of information, to me 

2 it will go in OTS, which is an OCAS SEC 

3 application. And then we respond to it. To 

4 me that is not outreach.

5 MEMBER BEACH: Some of it is like 

6 profile stuff.

7 MS. BREYER: Some of it could be.

8 MEMBER BEACH: And that's --

9 MS. BREYER: Again, I just go back 

10 to what he is submitting or how he submits it 

11 and what it's in relation to. But it's not in 

12 relation like a specific worker outreach 

13 meeting, just like one day we randomly get it. 

14 I don't think it would go in OTS because OTS 

15 tracks it by the meetings.

16 Now, if something comes in in 

17 relation to a certain meeting, I can see it 

18 possibly going into OTS. But if something 

19 comes in just because one guy is sitting at 

20 home and he wants to write up a ten-page site 

21 profile, that is not going to go into OTS.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: I don't think you 
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1 all realize the amount of information that is 

2 submitted to us.

3 MS. BREYER: I mean, not just as 

4 --

5 MR. ELLIOTT: This outline that I 

6 have given you is outreach meetings.

7 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: And the website 

9 docket is probably the only outlier in that 

10 whole scheme.

11 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: It's not necessarily 

13 a meeting, but it's not -- and I think what 

14 Lori is trying to describe to you is that we 

15 get gobs of information just fed to us.

16 MEMBER BEACH: Well, I guess that 

17 is a struggle that we are having is to try to 

18 figure out how that information is utilized, 

19 not utilized, if there is important 

20 information. I mean, I am sure you get ten 

21 pages of something you can't use. And maybe 

22 there's one little nugget of something that 
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1 goes, "Oh. Well, we had better check into 

2 that." I guess that is what I am struggling 

3 with, is how do we see --

4 MS. BREYER: I just don't know 

5 that all of that is worker outreach. Some of 

6 that is just responsiveness in general to 

7 individual claimants. And in [Identifying 

8 information redacted]'s case, a lot of that is 

9 an individual with individual issues that he 

10 may submit 20 pages of documents on his own 

11 and how we will respond to that on an 

12 individual claim basis. I guess that's part 

13 of --

14 MR. FUNK: This is John Funk. I'm 

15 being discussed.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: Hey, John Funk.

17 MEMBER BEACH: Hi, John.

18 MS. BREYER: We're using you as an 

19 example.

20 MR. FUNK: I would like to make a 

21 point clear here. Most of the information I 

22 submitted has not been, oh, to my claims. 
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1 They have been claims to people who have been 

2 associated with my group. I think this is 

3 kind of being misrepresentative. They are not 

4 all my claims.

5 I have used my claims in some 

6 cases simply because I am more familiar with 

7 my particular claim, but I haven't used this 

8 forum to promote my own agenda. I am actually 

9 working for everybody out there.

10 If you look at the issues I 

11 brought up, they cover the whole entire test 

12 site from one end to the other.

13 MR. KATZ: No disagreement, John. 

14 No disagreement. But a point I would just 

15 like at least to be thought about here with 

16 respect to this, it seems to me a little bit 

17 arbitrary, I mean, whether they submitted 

18 properly to the docket or whether they just 

19 know that Larry Elliott runs the programs or 

20 they send it to Larry Elliott or they're 

21 submitting it, it's general information and 

22 they're submitting it in interaction with you 
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1 over an SEC petition. It seems to me those 

2 distinctions are really arbitrary in a sense.

3 The program is getting information 

4 that is potential valuable for its work. And 

5 to the extent you can track that, that is 

6 valuable because then the question of, are we 

7 making good use of the information that is 

8 coming in the door and however, if it's a fire 

9 hose or how? You know, every volume there is 

10 still the same question.

11 MS. BREYER: But that is 

12 considered outreach. And I don't even know 

13 how you begin to tackle that.

14 MR. FUNK: One thing I would like 

15 to make --

16 MS. BREYER: I mean, if everybody 

17 who sends us a letter questioning how 

18 something is used, either in a dose 

19 reconstruction site profile or SEC petition, 

20 that is --

21 MEMBER BEACH: So we are not 

22 interested in dealing with questions. And 
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1 I'll speak for myself. It's more when you 

2 have someone supplying you with a lot of site 

3 information.

4 MS. BREYER: Right. And regularly 

5 what they will say is, "At the site," X, Y, 

6 and Z "happened. And that is not discussed in 

7 my dose reconstruction." And then they will 

8 have ten statements about how something that 

9 happened to them wasn't addressed in a dose 

10 reconstruction. And so, then, if that's 

11 considered outreach, I just think that --

12 MEMBER BEACH: I understand your 

13 dilemma.

14 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: The workgroup is 

15 named Worker Outreach, but one of the intents 

16 when this group was put together was to see 

17 how the information used from claimants and 

18 advocates is evaluated. So, you know, I don't 

19 think we need to get wrapped around the words 

20 "worker outreach" as much as the information 

21 that's provided and how it's used or not used 

22 or evaluated.
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1 MR. KATZ: Just in thinking about 

2 the evaluation process, down the road, you 

3 know, if there were an evaluation to be done, 

4 then, the working group's looking at things, 

5 and they see that, well, you know, OCAS does 

6 really well at handling its interview 

7 information and so on and integrating that.

8 But when it comes to information 

9 that is submitted ad hoc by individuals from 

10 the outside, you know, OCAS has a hard time 

11 sorting through that information and making 

12 use of it. Well, that's, then, useful 

13 information for OCAS to know.

14 So it's all within the proper 

15 scope of the question of how well. I mean, 

16 OCAS certainly is opening itself up to the 

17 public to submit information by whatever means 

18 to help it with its work.

19 So how well is it working with all 

20 that information that's coming? I think that 

21 it's still fully within the scope of this 

22 Working Group's interests and the program's 
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1 interest in improving its work.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Doesn't the directly 

3 received information that we're discussing 

4 here right now fall under items 2 and 4 up 

5 there? Isn't that part of -- wouldn't it all 

6 be SEC or --

7 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

8 MEMBER MUNN: -- site profile 

9 information? Regardless of where it came, it 

10 would be --

11 MR. KATZ: For people on the 

12 phone, items 2 and 4 are the SEC evaluation, 

13 you know, issues and site profile development.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Just because they go 

15 to Larry doesn't mean they disappear into 

16 Larry's outbox. You know, if --

17 MR. KATZ: The idea is that they 

18 don't disappear.

19 MEMBER MUNN: They don't. They 

20 don't disappear.

21 MR. KATZ: They get traction where 

22 they need to.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: They're tracked on 

2 one of those two issues.

3 MR. FUNK: Can I make another 

4 comment? This is John Funk again. This is 

5 the first time I even knew anything about this 

6 Outreach Program.

7 As all of you know, I have been in 

8 this, involved in this, since 2005, long 

9 before this subject even came up. And I 

10 didn't even know this meeting was even taking 

11 place. Somebody called me.

12 So I think one of your ideas of 

13 how you can make this more acceptable to the 

14 public, the more inclusive is to keep 

15 everybody informed.

16 I would like to let you know I 

17 wasn't informed about this meeting. I found 

18 this out secondhand through somebody else.

19 MR. KATZ: Thanks, John. 

20 Actually, we're coming up pretty soon to the 

21 worker --

22 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Right. If we 
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1 can maybe just leave our two discussions right 

2 now and open up the phone lines for workers, 

3 claimants, their representatives, or their 

4 advocates to go ahead and make comments at 

5 this time? Just be sure and identify yourself 

6 for the court reporter. And go ahead and feel 

7 free to make your comments.

8 MR. FUNK: I would like to start 

9 first, if I could, here unless somebody is 

10 ahead of me. This is John Funk.

11 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Sure. Go ahead.

12 WORKERS, CLAIMANTS, REPRESENTATIVES, AND

13 ADVOCATES

14 MR. FUNK: Okay. First, I think 

15 that the subject was brought up just how much 

16 can the Board absorb on something like this. 

17 And I think that is a good question just 

18 exactly. We don't want to overwhelm them but 

19 a lot of other things where we have already 

20 got something that is working somewhat.

21 And the second point -- I've got 

22 these notes kind of messed up here because I 
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1 have been writing them down as we have been 

2 going along -- I would like to make a point 

3 that Sanford and Cohen needs to have more 

4 funding to pursue items that come up to 

5 investigate them.

6 As it is right now, they can't 

7 look at anything unless there is funding for 

8 it. And there's been a lot of cases where if 

9 Sanford and Cohen had had the funding, they 

10 could have probably cut short a lot of these 

11 problems. Okay. That's one.

12 I'm a little bit surprised that 

13 this thing is even started right now like it 

14 is. It has been ten years coming. So it is a 

15 little bit late, but late is better than 

16 never, I guess.

17 I notice we brought up the subject 

18 of tape recordings. I really don't understand 

19 why tape recordings make everybody run for the 

20 closet. If you say something in a tape 

21 recording, I think people are smart enough to 

22 know when those off-the-record statements and 
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1 statements that you could be held accountable 

2 for -- I think that the tape recordings are 

3 good because it gives the claimant a level 

4 playing field on who said what.

5 Now, when we get all done and they 

6 come out with a government document where 

7 everything is detailed and transcribed there, 

8 it is almost indisputable. However, if you do 

9 have a tape recording you can go back to, I 

10 think the Board members can judge that for 

11 themselves, where to use that.

12 Another thing we got into, there 

13 is a problem with the redacting process here. 

14 I have asked numerous times with NIOSH for a 

15 list of the redacting officers because I 

16 believe there are times when Martha DeMar at 

17 the DOE library has really got carried away in 

18 the redaction process.

19 I hardly see where the date and 

20 the day and time of the day should be redacted 

21 off a document. I think the only thing the 

22 redacting of an author does is just proves how 
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1 worthless a document really is if we knew who 

2 the author of that report was.

3 I'll give you one example. I have 

4 a report. I'm not going to name it. But 

5 basically what it does, it goes through and it 

6 details this event and everything that took 

7 place and all of the hours and time cards. 

8 And she missed one of the pages of getting the 

9 guy's name off of it.

10 And I happened to notice the name. 

11 I happened to know that this person worked in 

12 mercury. And most of the information that 

13 this person wrote was either second, third, or 

14 even fourth-hand information.

15 The only thing redacting these 

16 authors' names off of these reports does, it 

17 denies you the ability to pull the worth of 

18 the reports.

19 MR. KATZ: John, I am just going 

20 to try to keep you on track here. I mean, 

21 redaction is done for Privacy Act protection. 

22 It is not negotiable. It's just the way the 
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1 world is. People have a right to their 

2 privacy.

3 MR. FUNK: Yes, but do you think 

4 redacting the -- I mean, for example, if you 

5 know somebody who wrote the report who wasn't 

6 there and didn't have the information, why 

7 should that report hold any validity?

8 MR. KATZ: Again, John, worker 

9 outreach is sort of the focus of this 

10 discussion. So it would be good for you to 

11 keep your comments, you know, on target with 

12 respect to what the Working Group is 

13 addressing.

14 MR. FUNK: We will get on to that. 

15 Okay. As far as the outreach, I think the 

16 subject was brought up: getting the claimants 

17 to have faith in the system.

18 I think one of the things that 

19 would probably be a big improvement to have 

20 faith in the system was to in the Work Board 

21 meetings, I have noticed there seems to be an 

22 attitude where nobody allows the other guy to 
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1 make his presentation without interruption. 

2 It seems to be a lot of cross-fire goes on at 

3 these, and they don't seem to be run very 

4 professionally and need to be cleaned up a 

5 little bit.

6 Let's see. Let's see. Okay. I 

7 think I've covered most of it except for I 

8 still think that they should be more open in 

9 contacting more people to get worker input.

10 And, like I said, I haven't worked 

11 toward just my own case. I have been working 

12 on everybody's concerns. And I think that, 

13 you know, like a lot of stuff we put in, they 

14 said it's not important. And it does not 

15 reflect on the dose reconstruction. Maybe it 

16 doesn't for that moment, but it might later, 

17 just like I believe it was Josie who said that 

18 with all of this information, there might be a 

19 couple of nuggets.

20 Now, it is very true there is a 

21 case where there might be something. And it 

22 has shown up already in a couple of cases 
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1 where things that were brought up in the past 

2 and then they were written up as nothing 

3 suddenly they found that it was important.

4 So there are a lot of things about 

5 this Outreach Program. If you're going to run 

6 it, you're going to have to start listening to 

7 the people.

8 And also I believe John Mauro went 

9 into the point of explaining the whys and 

10 what-fors. You know, people want to know why 

11 their information wasn't used. And I think 

12 other than to say, "Well, I can't tell you 

13 because it's classified," I think you ought to 

14 have a better explanation of why you can't use 

15 that information.

16 That has been used on me a lot 

17 where I ask for information and why. They 

18 say, "Well, we feel this way."

19 And I'd say, "Well, show me the 

20 documents."

21 "Well, we can't. They're 

22 classified." So you're never going to get 
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1 people's faith as long as you keep hiding 

2 behind national security.

3 And you're going to have to get 

4 DOE to open up and start sharing this 

5 information and start honoring these Freedom 

6 of Information requests or we're just going to 

7 be back where we were ten years ago, which is 

8 where we're at right now.

9 Now, that's about all I've got to 

10 say.

11 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Thank you, John.

12 Is there anyone else on the phone 

13 who would like to make a comment?

14 MS. CLAYTON: Yes, I would. This 

15 is Dorothy Clayton.

16 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay.

17 MS. CLAYTON: And I am calling 

18 regarding the SC&A report on my husband: 

19 Glenn Clayton. A couple of meetings ago I had 

20 called in and requested that all interoffice 

21 correspondence be included and also other 

22 interviews be included. And I was just 
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1 wondering if those documents had been 

2 submitted to the working board.

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I don't 

4 know the answer. We will have to ask John.

5 MS. CLAYTON: Hello?

6 MR. KATZ: Did you hear that? We 

7 don't have that information at hand. So we 

8 don't know whether they would be submitted to 

9 the site research database. Is that what --

10 MS. CLAYTON: They were supposed 

11 to have been sent to the working board, yes. 

12 And that was two meetings ago that I made that 

13 request.

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: The NTS 

15 Working Group or --

16 MS. CLAYTON: NTS at the -- I was 

17 on a conference call then at the meeting. I 

18 think it was in Cincinnati. I'm not sure 

19 where it was at. But it was the meeting 

20 before the Amarillo meeting.

21 MR. KATZ: Right. That would be 

22 Albuquerque.
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1 MS. CLAYTON: Okay. Albuquerque. 

2 Yes, it was. That's when I called in and 

3 made that request because they're missing a 

4 lot of information here that is very 

5 important.

6 For instance, on page 18 of the 

7 SC&A report, under the SC&A comments, it says, 

8 "Mr. Clayton was one of the earlier claims. 

9 And more detailed information was provided to 

10 NIOSH." And I'm wondering why they don't 

11 provide that detailed information now.

12 And also right under that, in the 

13 very same paragraph, it says, "The thyroid 

14 monitoring is available in what NTS refers to 

15 as other monitoring data. And this data is 

16 not routinely provided." And maybe that's 

17 from the claimant data submitted to NIOSH. 

18 Now, this is from the SC&A report. And it 

19 just goes on and on.

20 On page 19, "Air sampling data in 

21 area access logs are available for the reentry 

22 team if requested." Do they request those?
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1 And then on page 22, it says, "The 

2 history indicates that Mr. Clayton was 

3 monitored for gamma and gross fission 

4 products. However, an internal dose was not 

5 assigned and not included in the total whole 

6 body dose listed on the radiation exposure 

7 history form."

8 So I am just wondering, you know, 

9 is this information going to be available? I 

10 haven't been able to help any of the ladies I 

11 have been working with since day one in this 

12 program back in 2001, under radiation, even 

13 though they worked 25-30 years at the test 

14 site with my husband.

15 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Dorothy, 

16 this is Kathy. I was not involved in that NTS 

17 meeting. So I don't know exactly what the 

18 request was that you made, but it sounds like 

19 you have a bunch of questions that you might 

20 want to submit and get answered.

21 MS. CLAYTON: Right, Kathy. I had 

22 asked for just the interoffice correspondence 
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1 relating to the comments made in the SC&A 

2 report and also the other interviews. Other 

3 interviews were conducted other than the one I 

4 had. And those should be also submitted to 

5 the working board so they can see all of the 

6 evidence. That was my request at the time.

7 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, I can 

8 answer one of those questions. The Nevada 

9 test site interviews that we did as a part of 

10 the SEC petition review have gone to the 

11 working group.

12 MS. CLAYTON: The interviews have 

13 gone to the working group?

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes.

15 MS. CLAYTON: Okay.

16 MEMBER MUNN: I don't believe that 

17 working group has met recently.

18 MS. CLAYTON: Yes. And the 

19 interoffice correspondence that backs up what 

20 I was saying in this report or the information 

21 I gave to you, to SC&A?

22 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: That I am 
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1 not sure of. I guess we will have to get back 

2 to you on that.

3 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Mrs. Clayton, 

4 this is Mike Gibson. This working group here 

5 is not the NTS Working Group. So the members 

6 of the Board that are on this working group

7 are not necessarily members of the NTS Working 

8 Group.

9 So if you submitted your question 

10 to them, we may not have been made aware of 

11 that. So you may want to contact the Chair of 

12 NTS Working Group to see where your request is 

13 or submit additional questions.

14 MR. KATZ: Yes. Dorothy, this is 

15 Ted again, the Acting Designated Federal 

16 Official. I have attended the NTS Workgroup 

17 meetings. I don't recall receiving a set of 

18 queries from you for the Working Group.

19 MS. CLAYTON: It was a verbal 

20 request. I called in. I was on the line.

21 MR. KATZ: Okay. Well, I mean, 

22 the last time NTS met was prior to the 
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1 Amarillo meeting. So it was in early May or 

2 April, I think.

3 MS. CLAYTON: It was at the 

4 Albuquerque meeting.

5 MR. KATZ: Okay. At the 

6 Albuquerque meeting. I don't know that the 

7 Working Group took up -- I don't recall. We 

8 can look at the transcript from that meeting 

9 and see what you raised.

10 And I will look at that transcript 

11 and see what questions you raised and forward 

12 those because I am not sure that the NTS 

13 members reviewed public comments during that 

14 full Board meeting. So maybe they haven't 

15 followed up on that.

16 MS. CLAYTON: Who is the chair on 

17 that NTS?

18 MR. KATZ: Bob Presley, Robert 

19 Presley.

20 MS. CLAYTON: Okay.

21 MR. FUNK: Hey, Ted, this is John. 

22 I think I have both the Working Board meeting 
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1 and the Presidential Advisory Board meeting. 

2 I think I did mention that Mrs. Clayton was 

3 very unhappy or dissatisfied with the report 

4 that was done for her.

5 MR. KATZ: Yes, yes, John. There 

6 is no question. You have mentioned that. You 

7 have mentioned that to the Board. You have 

8 mentioned that to me and to SC&A, I believe, 

9 as well.

10 MS. CLAYTON: Okay.

11 MR. KATZ: Dorothy, anyway, I will 

12 follow up on the question of looking at what 

13 questions you did raise at the Board meeting 

14 and forward those to Bob Presley and the 

15 working group entire.

16 MS. CLAYTON: Okay.

17 MR. FUNK: Ted, there is one more 

18 thing I forgot I left out. I don't know 

19 whether this reflects on this meeting or not, 

20 but this is an outreach, I guess, if you're 

21 looking for facts to get these things 

22 straightened out.
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1 There are a lot of problems with 

2 these technical base documents, supporting 

3 documents. And I raised issues on some of 

4 these, especially the identifying the mine 

5 shafts and the grill shafts and the job 

6 classifications.

7 And they keep bouncing these back 

8 at me like they're not important. They are 

9 very important. And they are going to have to 

10 look into them. Once again --

11 MR. KATZ: Okay. John, that is an 

12 NTS issue. I mean, I actually believe they 

13 have engaged very much on that subject, but it 

14 is really not a function of this group. It's 

15 not what these Working Group members here can 

16 address.

17 MR. FUNK: All right. Thank you.

18 MS. BARRIE: This is Terrie 

19 Barrie. Is there time for one more comment?

20 MR. KATZ: Yes, of course, Terrie.

21 MS. BARRIE: Okay. I haven't 

22 listened to the entire meeting today, but I do 
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1 have a couple of suggestions. Number one, I 

2 love this idea of having the public being able 

3 to make comments during the Working Group 

4 meeting. It's so important, as Ms. Clayton 

5 and John Funk just mentioned.

6 We don't have that opportunity 

7 when there is a Working Group meeting for the 

8 individual site, especially like NTS. And I 

9 think that you should recommend to all of the 

10 working groups that we do have an opportunity, 

11 instead of having all this frustration pent up 

12 inside that we can't do anything or can't say 

13 anything during a particular working group.

14 And this was not an original idea 

15 of mine, but I want to pass it along. And 

16 please forgive me if this has already been 

17 mentioned.

18 The working group for a specific 

19 site should be held at those sites, instead of 

20 in Kentucky, where you are now. For instance, 

21 the Mound site should have been held at Mound. 

22 You people have to travel anyway. So I think 
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1 that would broaden participation by the 

2 public, number one; and have people realize 

3 the work that you do.

4 I am going to get off the subject 

5 here, too. I want to talk about the problems 

6 with the Rocky Flats and the Ruttenberg

7 database.

8 I am not sure if everyone knows, 

9 but I received a FOIA request. And NIOSH 

10 apparently has noted that there is a 

11 discrepancy between the two. And I am very, 

12 very disappointed that this has been known to 

13 NIOSH for about a year now and nothing has 

14 been done.

15 Now, Mark Griffin has said that he 

16 is going to contact NIOSH to schedule a 

17 meeting. And I am just hoping that the 

18 meeting is scheduled sooner, rather than 

19 later.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. KATZ: Terrie, just on the 

22 last point, just to note, NIOSH is actually 
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1 engaged in an evaluation of those two 

2 databases, a comparative evaluation, which I 

3 think they are pretty far along on. And 

4 that's what they will be working with, Mark 

5 and the working group, so that there can be a 

6 thorough discussion of those as soon as all of 

7 that work is done. So that is certainly on 

8 the burner right now.

9 MS. BARRIE: Okay. Is SC&A 

10 involved with that?

11 MR. KATZ: SC&A is not yet 

12 involved, but certainly they will be part of 

13 that working group meeting. And anything that 

14 they need to be tasked with they will be 

15 tasked with once there is that discussion.

16 Mark Griffin is directly involved 

17 with that and I would just also note highly 

18 competent in the technical sense to grapple 

19 with that as well.

20 MS. BARRIE: Great. Well, thank 

21 you so much.

22 MR. KATZ: Any other members of 
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1 the public who would like to comment?

2 MR. FUNK: One last comment, Ted. 

3 This is John Funk again. I would hope that 

4 NIOSH, DOL, and everybody concerned, the 

5 primary agenda would be to find the truth, to 

6 find the facts as they exist. If they hurt us, 

7 they do. If they do, it's good they do.

8 I think the truth is the most 

9 important thing that we find out. And I would 

10 like to see both sides. Well, we have to take 

11 that position. But I would like to see the 

12 government take the position of a not us 

13 against them mentality anymore.

14 So far what I have experienced --

15 and I believe it is shown -- seems to me like 

16 it's an us against them mentality. And I 

17 would like to see that stopped if we could 

18 possibly do it.

19 MR. KATZ: Thanks for that 

20 comment, John. I think that's a good spirit.

21 Terrie, as long as you raised the 

22 question, I just want to -- I can't resolve 
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1 it, but let me just address your question 

2 about holding working group meetings on 

3 location.

4 I mean, we have had discussions 

5 about that over time. I won't resolve it by 

6 myself, but let me just say there is 

7 extraordinary expense in actually holding 

8 these working group meetings on location 

9 because it means all of the Cincinnati people, 

10 people located here have to travel. And it 

11 also means it's a lot more work setting up 

12 these meetings at a particular site versus the 

13 standard place where we have a setup arranged.

14 So it's not that it's not 

15 appealing because certainly in an ideal world, 

16 I think it is very appealing to hold those 

17 working group meetings on location, but in a 

18 practical and financial sense, it is pretty 

19 difficult to deal with. So I just want to 

20 sensitize you to there are some challenges to 

21 actually effectuating something like that.

22 Okay. Mike?
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1 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: And, Terrie, I 

2 will take the comment to the other workgroup 

3 chairs that they consider having a public 

4 comment meeting for the other workgroup 

5 meetings.

6 MS. BARRIE: Thank you. I 

7 appreciate that.

8 MR. FUNK: Yes. I think most 

9 workgroups allow, particularly the SEC 

10 petitioners, usually allow them time to make 

11 comments. And we have had a number of them at 

12 the different workgroup meetings actually be 

13 present in the room.

14 MR. KATZ: That is true. That is 

15 true. Particularly with the petitions, I 

16 don't know of an instance where the 

17 petitioners don't have opportunities to 

18 provide their input during the working group 

19 meeting.

20 MS. BARRIE: Yes. I understand 

21 about the petitioners being allowed. However, 

22 I don't believe the Mound petitioner was 
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1 present during the last meeting, but there 

2 were other advocates for Mound that were 

3 online and would have probably been happy to 

4 make comments, too.

5 MEMBER BEACH: Yes. And, Terrie, 

6 this is Josie, the Chair of Mound. We had a 

7 very tight schedule. And you're right. We 

8 should have had maybe time. I believe they 

9 were informed of the meeting and could have 

10 shown up if they wanted to. But we just ran 

11 out of time with all the things we had to 

12 cover.

13 MR. KATZ: Yes. And that is just 

14 the other general thing I would say. We do, 

15 again, as we just said, allow participation by 

16 petitioners. And other people speak up, too, 

17 even if they're not the petitioner. It 

18 happens. And generally we don't shut them 

19 down.

20 But we don't have a public comment 

21 session, just because we are already operating 

22 with not enough time and too much work to do. 
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1 And these working group meetings are open to 

2 the public, but they normally wouldn't be. 

3 With any other advisory committee, they 

4 wouldn't even be open to the public.

5 So we are trying to be as 

6 transparent and allow as much involvement as 

7 possible, but at the same time, there is a lot 

8 of work to be done, which is we try to really 

9 limit that situation.

10 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: And, John, this 

11 is Phillip Schofield here again. I want you 

12 to know that the stuff you do submit to the 

13 Board members and the workgroup, we do go over 

14 that information.

15 But a lot of that stuff goes to 

16 either SC&A or OCAS. And they look at it. 

17 And they go back and see where this fits in 

18 with the records or how does this fit in in a 

19 particular question we have.

20 So all of that information is 

21 valuable and is actually ultimately used 

22 because this sometimes answers questions or it 
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1 actually raises even new questions.

2 But NTS is just one of those sites 

3 that has got a long history. A lot of things 

4 went on out there. So a lot of the records 

5 are sketchy. The official records a lot of 

6 times are sketchy or some of it is based off 

7 of memories, which any time you submit a 

8 document or somebody else does, that people 

9 say, "Well, you know, this occurred in a 

10 certain area." And they are basing that on 

11 their memory.

12 And a lot of times it turns out, 

13 well, that wasn't the right area. So it is 

14 valuable that you keep submitting this stuff.

15 MS. KLEA: Hi. This is Bonnie. 

16 Can you hear me?

17 MR. KATZ: Yes, Bonnie.

18 MS. KLEA: Talking about data, 

19 what can be done about groups of people that 

20 were committed to lifetime secrecy and no 

21 available data has been able -- we have not 

22 been able to get it under a FOIA request from 
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1 DOE?

2 MR. KATZ: So, Bonnie, I'm not 

3 sure I can answer the question. If you have 

4 made a FOIA for DOE information and DOE has 

5 responded that the information doesn't exist 

6 or is not available, I'm not sure.

7 MS. KLEA: Well, this is for the 

8 Van Owen facility. And I've talked to SC&A 

9 about it already. And they've done interviews 

10 on this [Identifying information redacted] 

11 -year-old man who is still alive. But we had 

12 a large accident at the Van Owen facility in 

13 1958.

14 And I have a list of the names and 

15 addresses of all of the plutonium project 

16 engineers who were committed to lifetime 

17 secrecy. So I have two witnesses that are 

18 alive that I know it happened, but we can't 

19 get data.

20 MR. KATZ: Right. Well, I mean, 

21 if they hold classified information, they 

22 can't give you data. That's correct. They 
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1 would be violating national security, I guess, 

2 if they were to provide you.

3 But as to SC&A and OCAS both have 

4 individuals who have clearances. And there is 

5 a whole system for obtaining classified 

6 information when it is necessary for any of 

7 this work.

8 MS. KLEA: Okay. Well, the 

9 workers don't know what happened. And that's 

10 the problem. They were in a building when 

11 there was a large nuclear release. And they 

12 don't know what happened, but they are 

13 witnesses to the flight tests that all showed 

14 very hot outside, inside, everywhere.

15 And no one knows what happened. 

16 But the workers were still committed to 

17 lifetime secrecy. And we have not been able 

18 to get any record of the accident from DOE.

19 I mean, do you have more power 

20 than a --

21 MR. KATZ: Yes, yes. So I guess 

22 that is what I am saying is, again, OCAS and 
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1 SC&A, both of whom are looking at that 

2 facility, right, Santa Susana, --

3 MS. KLEA: Right.

4 MR. KATZ: Both of them are 

5 looking into that. They both have full access 

6 to whatever information is germane for the 

7 questions of being able to do dose 

8 reconstructions and deal with petitions.

9 MS. KLEA: All right.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: Bonnie, this is --

11 MS. KLEA: I am submitting 

12 evidence on a new facility besides just the 

13 four that we have. I have a new facility, and 

14 I have a worker who's alive with volumes of 

15 records from the work done at a Van Nuys 

16 facility, which I put on a disk, a CD. And 

17 then I will be mailing that to Kathy 

18 Robertson. I hope that won't be a problem 

19 getting a fifth site.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, let's talk 

21 about this.

22 MS. KLEA: All right.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: I mean, you are 

2 going to give this new information on a new 

3 facility to SC&A.

4 MS. KLEA: Yes.

5 MR. ELLIOTT: That doesn't go 

6 anywhere. SC&A is not tasked to deal with new 

7 information on a facility that is not 

8 designated as covered under this program.

9 MS. KLEA: Okay. Well, who should 

10 I send it to?

11 MR. ELLIOTT: Bonnie, this is 

12 Larry Elliott.

13 MS. KLEA: Yes, Larry?

14 MR. ELLIOTT: You should send that 

15 information, if you have information that you 

16 believe identifies a facility doing work for 

17 the Atomic Energy Commission or later DOE, I 

18 would suggest you give that to DOE and DOL.

19 MS. KLEA: DOE and DOL, not that I 

20 know who exactly to send it to.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, at DOE, you 

22 would send it to Pat Worthington or Regina 
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1 Cano. At DOL, you would send it to Rachel 

2 Layton.

3 MS. KLEA: Okay. Can --

4 MR. ELLIOTT: If you send it to 

5 me, I will forward --

6 MS. KLEA: Do you know those 

7 addresses?

8 MR. ELLIOTT: If you send it to 

9 me, I will forward it to both of them.

10 MS. KLEA: Okay. And I don't know 

11 who --

12 MR. ELLIOTT: You can go on our 

13 website, and you can go to "Related Links." 

14 On the toolbar on the right-hand side, pick 

15 "Related Links." And you can go to both DOL 

16 and DOE and see the addresses for those 

17 individuals, however you wish to do it.

18 MS. KLEA: Okay.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: And then on the 

20 other matter that you brought up just before 

21 this, if you have information about an 

22 incident that occurred on the covered 
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1 facility, I would encourage that you share 

2 that with us at NIOSH, at OCAS so that we can 

3 understand what incident you are talking 

4 about.

5 And I would also encourage you to 

6 encourage claimants to list that incident if 

7 they were present during it in their 

8 computer-assisted telephone interview.

9 MS. KLEA: Well, I am sure they 

10 have. And I have had a second claimant for 

11 the Van Owen facility. And I asked the 

12 interviewer to look at this particular claim 

13 and look at the testimony. And that didn't 

14 help. He never commented on it in the closing 

15 interview. So that sounds good in theory, 

16 but, really, that does not work. I have not 

17 had that --

18 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, it should work 

19 because --

20 MS. KLEA: -- other claims are 

21 compared to get information.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: It should work in 
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1 this instance where an incident is being 

2 identified in the close-out interview. And if 

3 a dose reconstruction doesn't address that, 

4 then it needs to address that. It either 

5 needs to say that it has been accounted for in 

6 the dose estimate in some way, shape, or 

7 fashion or that it's not relevant to the dose 

8 reconstruction.

9 MS. KLEA: Okay.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: And so in your 

11 close-out interview, if you didn't get

12 satisfaction with that, please call me or send 

13 me an e-mail about it. And I'll go back to 

14 ORAU. And we'll work out what happened there 

15 and get an answer on that situation.

16 MS. KLEA: Okay. Well, I am going 

17 to be a part of another closing interview in

18 July with one of my reactor operators on a 

19 failed reactor that failed in 1964, the snap 

20 AER.

21 And how can anybody get a fair 

22 hearing when you're using old health data 
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1 which shows that the bladder cancers are not 

2 very radiosensitive? You know, according to 

3 the --

4 MR. ELLIOTT: Bladder cancers are 

5 not very radiosensitive. That's why.

6 MS. KLEA: -- you know, a very 

7 high incidence of bladder cancer.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: The bladder cancer 

9 is not radiogenic. So that's just the way the 

10 cancer risk model is.

11 MS. KLEA: What? What did you 

12 say? Bladder cancer is not very radiogenic?

13 MR. ELLIOTT: That bladder cancer 

14 is not very radiogenic.

15 MS. KLEA: Well, not according to 

16 the BIER report. According to the BIER 

17 report, they had higher incidence than they

18 ever suspected, very, very high, using old --

19 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, incidence is 

20 different than cancer risk models. Incidence 

21 goes into cancer risk models. So, you know, 

22 we may be talking past each other here, but --
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1 MR. KATZ: Bonnie, some guidance 

2 that might be helpful to you. There are two 

3 things here. There is a dose reconstruction, 

4 which it doesn't really matter. What you are 

5 talking about is now an IREP issue, which is 

6 the interactive radio-epidemiological program, 

7 which is used by DOL to actually then 

8 establish probability of causation based on 

9 the dose reconstruction, but it's not a dose 

10 reconstruction person's work to deal with 

11 these risk models.

12 So there is the opportunity. And 

13 it's solicited on the web, I believe, still to 

14 provide comments on IREP. And it sounds like 

15 you might have a comment on IREP with respect 

16 to bladder cancer. And you are encouraged to 

17 submit comments and information related to 

18 that.

19 MS. KLEA: Well, yes, if I think 

20 it would help. I don't know of any one of our 

21 bladder cancers that has been compensated at 

22 Santa Susana. And then in the whole country, 
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1 you are only paying three percent. So, you 

2 know, it sounds pretty hopeless if all of our 

3 workers have bladder cancer, which they do.

4 MR. KATZ: Again, so, Bonnie, I 

5 mean, that is a reflection of the current 

6 cancer risk models that have been developed by 

7 the National Cancer Institute and with some 

8 involvement by NIOSH.

9 Those risk models do not attribute 

10 a high level of risk to a given amount of 

11 radiation dose in comparison to what you would 

12 have, say, with a lung cancer. But that is 

13 just to speak very crudely about this, 

14 probably inaccurately.

15 But, again, the door is open on 

16 scientific questions with IREP. And you 

17 should feel empowered to submit comments and 

18 questions with respect to IREP. If you don't 

19 raise the questions, then certainly they may 

20 not be taken out.

21 But BIER, these reports are very 

22 important. And OCAS is well-aware of these 
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1 reports, and the report that work on the IREP 

2 program are well-aware of these reports. And 

3 there is a lot of peer review among scientists 

4 that goes into those programs already but 

5 certainly raise issues if you have them.

6 MS. KLEA: Well, I think that we 

7 are long past the conclusions of the BIER 

8 report. And I see no changes have been made 

9 whatsoever.

10 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Can I just 

11 make a comment, --

12 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Yes.

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: -- just for 

14 Larry's sake? The incident that Bonnie is 

15 talking about is written up in our Santa 

16 Susana site profile reviews. Additional 

17 information was sent to Laura Hughes probably 

18 about four weeks ago.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. Thank you.

20 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. Are there 

21 any more public comments from workers or 

22 advocates?
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1 (No response.)

2 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: If not, we'll 

3 get back to the conduct of the meeting. And I 

4 guess we are back to seeing if we have enough 

5 information to pull together here to try to 

6 define the mission of the workgroup.

7 MR. ZEITOUN: I have a question 

8 that came up on the site conversation.

9 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay.

10 MR. ZEITOUN: Let's say there is a 

11 meeting regarding a site. And let's say Mound 

12 or let's say anything, you know. And comments 

13 came from the public regarding that site.

14 I understand that this does not go 

15 into this database that we are talking about. 

16 And although it's information related to 

17 coming from the public on that site, am I 

18 correct that it goes someplace else? It 

19 doesn't go into the database that we are 

20 discussing?

21 MR. ELLIOTT: It depends upon the 

22 meeting, again.
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1 MR. ZEITOUN: Okay.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: If it's a town hall 

3 meeting, where we're there to present 

4 information about our responsibilities or our 

5 operations, our program, or process and we 

6 happen to interact with people and hear 

7 something, we will bring back individual notes 

8 perhaps. That would be how we would cover 

9 that from a town hall type of a setting.

10 But on a TBD or an SEC evaluation 

11 report focus group, those minutes would be a 

12 summary of the conversation that was held.

13 MR. ZEITOUN: So in this case, 

14 there is a possibility -- I'm using the word 

15 "possibility" -- that not all the public 

16 information may be found in this database in 

17 one spot where the Board members or SC&A or 

18 NIOSH want to go and say everything about that 

19 site or all the comments that came on that 

20 site will not be found in one database. It 

21 could be in different locations in the 

22 website.
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1 MR. JOHNSON: If the information 

2 was provided at a meeting, it's in the 

3 database.

4 MR. ZEITOUN: Okay.

5 MR. JOHNSON: If the information 

6 was provided off meeting, you know, all bets 

7 are off.

8 MR. ZEITOUN: Off these meetings 

9 that you talk about?

10 MR. JOHNSON: Off these meetings.

11 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes. That's what 

12 I'm trying to get at.

13 MR. JOHNSON: How would that 

14 information have been communicated?

15 MR. ZEITOUN: So how does the 

16 Board track all the aspects of comments that 

17 came on that site? Do they have to go to 

18 different sources, in addition to the 

19 database?

20 MR. ELLIOTT: Again, this database 

21 is initiated, entries into this database are 

22 initiated, by meetings that are held.
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1 MR. ZEITOUN: Right. Right, sir.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: And what we have up 

3 there, you know, I put Board meeting up there 

4 late, you know, after Kathy's suggestion.

5 MR. ZEITOUN: Right.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: But I don't know 

7 that we have -- we don't have any thought 

8 right now or we don't have any way in our 

9 minds of putting public comments caught, 

10 captured, heard at a Board meeting into this.

11 We don't have a way for the public 

12 health advisers who are doing interviews with 

13 claimants to come out of that and say, oh, 

14 hey, what about this? This person turned in 

15 this document. I don't know if we have seen 

16 it before.

17 MR. ZEITOUN: Right, right, right.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: So, you know, on 1, 

19 2, 3, and 4 --

20 MR. ZEITOUN: So we're getting the 

21 most.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: You're going to get 
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1 in this tracking system what we glean from 

2 that. Now, I guess we can paint through and 

3 augment the middle column there.

4 MR. ZEITOUN: You know, based on 

5 the discussion, I believe that you are going 

6 to be augmenting it by trying to get the 

7 letters into the system, whatever outside 

8 letters come in for --

9 MR. ELLIOTT: See, that is a whole 

10 other --

11 MR. ZEITOUN: Another attempt.

12 MR. ELLIOTT: We have another 

13 system where incoming letters if -- we have a 

14 controlled correspondence system. And so 

15 let's say that some claimant, a petitioner, a 

16 worker, an advocate, an activist writes to me 

17 or writes to Dr. Howard or writes to Secretary 

18 of HHS.

19 Then that incoming letter goes 

20 into this controlled correspondence because it 

21 generally begs for a response if nothing more 

22 than just "We got your letter. Thank you." 
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1 But it may in all likelihood have several 

2 points that need to be addressed in written 

3 response.

4 So those go into our controlled 

5 correspondence, which is a totally separate 

6 system. And, again, I don't know that I see 

7 that as outreach. I see that as just our 

8 day-to-day business interactions with folks in 

9 their correspondence.

10 MEMBER MUNN: It's a process.

11 MR. ELLIOTT: Well, yes.

12 MR. McDOUGALL: If I may just 

13 quickly? It sounds a little like you're 

14 dealing with the one percent issues here. If 

15 this Committee or this Working Group could 

16 really evaluate and provide recommendations on 

17 numbers 2 and 4 up here, most of the richness 

18 in which I think you are going to be 

19 interested in is in 2 and 4.

20 MR. ZEITOUN: That's in the 

21 majority, I agree.

22 MR. McDOUGALL: Yes. And if you 
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1 could get your arms around that, the rest of 

2 it, you know, that's kind of the nice to 

3 haves.

4 MR. ZEITOUN: What triggered that, 

5 Vern, is the comments we just heard. There 

6 are certain issues coming up. And we cannot 

7 remember, see?

8 So our issues that have to be we 

9 should really as a Board -- I am a contractor 

10 to the Board. Somehow we have to get a handle 

11 around how these issues that are coming up in 

12 meetings, in presentations could be controlled 

13 and tracked. That's a concept.

14 And sometimes the one percent is 

15 the most vocal ones.

16 MR. McDOUGALL: There is a lot of 

17 rich information out there in the records of 

18 those type 2 and type 4 meetings.

19 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes. Okay. It's a 

20 concern.

21 MEMBER BEACH: And I don't 

22 disagree. I think we really need to get our 
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1 hands around 2 and 4. And, as Larry 

2 mentioned, we need to figure out how to deal 

3 with the middle section because I think that 

4 is important, too.

5 Whether it's one percent, you 

6 know, one percent still can be a great deal. 

7 And I think it's important.

8 MR. ELLIOTT: I numbered these for 

9 you --

10 MEMBER BEACH: Yes.

11 MR. ELLIOTT: -- because I think 

12 those are our primary outreach activities. 

13 That's where we focus our attentions: on 

14 those primary four areas.

15 I'll be honest. You know, people 

16 are going to shut me down for this. But the 

17 Board meeting and the public comments, what I 

18 listen for there is, do I need to take 

19 somebody and get them off to the side and talk 

20 with them and find out what is going on?

21 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

22 MR. ELLIOTT: And that's the best 
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1 I think we can do with that kind of venue. 

2 It's difficult to measure. You know, I could 

3 write down every time I interact with somebody 

4 in a public comment period at the Board and 

5 tell you all how I handled it if that's what 

6 you want me to do. But there is very little 

7 juice for the squeezing there. 

8 MR. KATZ: Some of that will be 

9 captured anyway because if you find someone 

10 who has something, an interesting story to 

11 tell, you may interview them. And, as well, 

12 SC&A --

13 MEMBER BEACH: Right, right.

14 MR. KATZ: -- tries to follow up 

15 with people who have spoken up in meetings. 

16 And I think you have successfully interviewed 

17 people who have spoken up in meetings and 

18 gotten good information. So some of that is 

19 captured anyway.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, it's captured.

21 MR. KATZ: It may not in the end 

22 of the day be associated with a Board meeting, 
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1 but that same individual shared with you their 

2 information.

3 MR. ZEITOUN: Yes. And I would 

4 say 95 percent. I am not going to go up to 99 

5 percent. You are going to capture this. But 

6 as a contractor to the Board, we are not just 

7 going to limit ourselves to this database. 

8 There are different sources. There is nothing 

9 lost, actually, the way I understand it. It's 

10 just trying to track it different ways.

11 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

12 MR. ZEITOUN: And that's part of 

13 the responsibility that the Board should give 

14 to -- okay. Well, when do you think we are 

15 going to be getting more input on this so we 

16 can --

17 MR. ELLIOTT: You mean more flesh?

18 MR. ZEITOUN: Flesh, yes. We can 

19 use it as is, no problem, you know.

20 MR. ELLIOTT: We'll work that up. 

21 We'll have it before your next meeting. I 

22 don't know when your next meeting is, but I 
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1 think it's something that we can generate 

2 here.

3 Let's couch it as a work in 

4 progress because you may see it. When we put 

5 it together, you may have questions about it.

6 MR. ZEITOUN: Right.

7 MR. ELLIOTT: It may lead to more 

8 information you want to see on it.

9 MR. ZEITOUN: So it's Mike's 

10 decision when he needs the provisions.

11 MEMBER MUNN: Well, it also is the 

12 refining document for us as we work on the 

13 document that we have in front of us.

14 MR. ZEITOUN: Correct, correct.

15 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: And so do we 

16 have any suggestions on how to refine this 

17 document as of today?

18 MEMBER MUNN: I would prefer to 

19 have an opportunity to study it more 

20 thoroughly than just a read-through and to 

21 have the information that we developed with 

22 respect to outreach meetings. It's very 
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1 helpful, I think, to expand on the division 

2 that was set out in this initial document with 

3 respect to the generic type of worker 

4 activities, which is, of course, furthered by 

5 what we have seen in the diagram.

6 But past that, I would prefer that 

7 we give ourselves an opportunity to not only 

8 digest and comment on this document but also 

9 to incorporate what we have discussed today 

10 and the results of the .pdf file.

11 I would like to postpone that 

12 until our next meeting unless someone has 

13 specific information on these pages here that 

14 they would like to pursue.

15 DEFINING THE MISSION STATEMENT

16 MR. ELLIOTT: Can I give some 

17 thoughts, my thoughts?

18 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Sure, yes.

19 MR. ELLIOTT: The mission 

20 statement to me is usually one or two 

21 sentences.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: I am not suggesting 

2 this is wrong, but there is a lot of verbiage 

3 here that is really background or it can be 

4 referenced.

5 I think if I were to say in 

6 response to somebody who asked me what the 

7 mission of this workgroup is, I think you 

8 captured it in one sentence on page 3 of 4 

9 under measuring effectiveness if you say one 

10 of the goals of the Workgroup on Worker 

11 Outreach is to monitor and assess the 

12 effectiveness of NIOSH's Worker Outreach 

13 Program.

14 To me that is your mission 

15 statement. That is essentially what the 

16 workgroup was chartered to do. If you go back 

17 and read the next of the transcript on the 

18 charter of this workgroup, it was to do 

19 assessments of the Worker Outreach Program.

20 And so you hold up a mission 

21 statement that is very short and concise and 

22 succinct like that, and then you can build 
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1 from that. And you can say, "Okay. How are 

2 we going to monitor and assess?"

3 You have that in 2 and 3 on the 

4 first page: monitor/conduct meetings. You 

5 have monitor the impact of the public input. 

6 And so then you step away from that and say, 

7 "How are we going to do that?"

8 Monitoring the meeting, that's 

9 okay. Is one of us going to go attend those 

10 meetings? You come back and provide the rest 

11 of the Working Group feedback or input. Are 

12 we going to suggest things to NIOSH to do 

13 better? You know, you could set up a 

14 structure here just from that one sentence 

15 alone that leads you down a path toward an 

16 assessment of the effectiveness of what we are 

17 doing.

18 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. That 

19 sounds good. Thanks, Larry.

20 MEMBER BEACH: Makes sense.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: Thank you. I would 

22 welcome that. I really would. That's what 
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1 we're on here, to improve on outreach efforts.

2 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Any other 

3 comments or ideas, suggestions?

4 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Do we need 

5 to talk about the role that we are going to 

6 play as a Working Group?

7 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Sure, sure. We 

8 can discuss that. Go ahead.

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, that 

10 was a question.

11 (Laughter.)

12 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Yes, I think 

13 it's important, the role of all three. The 

14 Working Group goes back to the Board. I think 

15 we have defined NIOSH's role. I know you take 

16 your guidance from what we have assigned to 

17 you, but do you have any ideas of the role you 

18 think you should be playing or how to do it or 

19 --

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, when 

21 I think about how to evaluate, one of the 

22 things that maybe it probably is good for us 
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1 to do is to evaluate the procedure 12 and the 

2 associated database and get familiar with 

3 that.

4 MEMBER BEACH: That seems more 

5 like an action item, I guess.

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, I'm 

7 just --

8 MEMBER MUNN: It needs to be 

9 something probably all of us should do in our 

10 review of the material now that we have the 

11 full OTS, including the front and back. That 

12 seems to be a logical thing for all of us.

13 MEMBER BEACH: But we would 

14 request written response from SC&A to that 

15 procedure.

16 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Right. That 

17 would be something we would task them to do.

18 MR. KATZ: I would just suggest 

19 that the Working Group ought to read the 

20 procedure and see whether they really need an 

21 SC&A technical because this is not deep 

22 science there.
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1 And it may be that you have 

2 technical issues that you need SC&A to 

3 contribute on. But you may feel you are in 

4 comfortable territory to look at that 

5 procedure and see if you understand it.

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, 

7 actually, I have. And let me take you back in 

8 time to the original procedure review. What

9 we essentially looked at was the front end of 

10 the process because we did not have access to 

11 WISPR at that time.

12 And so there has never been an 

13 effectiveness evaluation. There has never 

14 been a back end of the process evaluation for 

15 the worker outreach. And that would start 

16 from the minute the meeting was done to the 

17 development of the minutes to workers for 

18 review to how are the comments being responded 

19 to.

20 That part hasn't really been 

21 evaluated. And that is still a part of 

22 procedure 12.
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1 MR. KATZ: I would just go beyond 

2 what you are saying and say no one has laid 

3 out in this Working Group yet a framework for 

4 evaluating effectiveness in the first place.

5 I mean, you need to know, what do 

6 you consider effective? What are the measures 

7 of effectiveness? And then where is that 

8 information to be gotten to make those 

9 judgments? And that is part of what the 

10 Working Group has to do.

11 If you follow sort of the line of 

12 thinking that Larry just laid out for setting 

13 your goals and so on, then under those goals, 

14 that is exactly what you do.

15 You have to figure out what are 

16 going to be your measures of effectiveness, 

17 what are the parameters of effectiveness that 

18 you are concerned with? And then where is 

19 that information to be gotten?

20 MEMBER MUNN: We had a portion of 

21 that discussion in our first meeting. And a 

22 part of that is how do you evaluate 
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1 effectiveness? Can you do it numerically? 

2 And I think most of us agree pretty much you 

3 probably couldn't, although I'm not sure that 

4 we all came to that conclusion.

5 That was one of the reasons I was 

6 so pleased to hear Larry brought us a 

7 numerical assessment, incomplete though it may 

8 be, what NIOSH knows in the way of changes 

9 that have occurred as a result of outreach 

10 activities and the defect that they have 

11 gotten.

12 So up until this meeting, I don't 

13 think it had --

14 MR. ELLIOTT: You had never heard 

15 that --

16 MEMBER MUNN: We had never heard 

17 that, never heard that. So that's --

18 MR. ELLIOTT: I don't think that's 

19 a good number either.

20 MEMBER MUNN: No.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: We've got a whole 

22 bunch of stuff to contribute. This is just 
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1 what has populated thus far.

2 MR. KATZ: Let's be concrete about 

3 monitoring meetings. So what does it mean to 

4 monitor a meeting? What is it exactly that 

5 you are measuring about the performance at 

6 that meeting? And you need to put that on the 

7 table. And then you can develop a work plan 

8 for having that done.

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay. 

10 Well, I've got one measure of effectiveness. 

11 And that is compliance with the procedure. I 

12 mean, it sounds simple, but through many 

13 conversations with individuals, workers, it 

14 appeared to me that, at least with the old 

15 procedure, there were some non-compliances 

16 with that. So that would be one measure of 

17 effectiveness.

18 MEMBER MUNN: So, Kathy, you are 

19 talking about PROC-097 now?

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: No. In 

21 this case, it would be PROC-012.

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, but that's 
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1 where we need to start.

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Right.

3 MR. ELLIOTT: I think you need to 

4 start with procedure 12, OCAS procedure 12. 

5 And you can also look at ORAU procedure 0031.

6 MR. MAURO: This is John. I think 

7 that I joined you a little while ago. Sorry I 

8 couldn't join you initially. But don't we 

9 first need -- see, the way I look at it is a 

10 hierarchy. You have a mission statement, 

11 which dictates okay. This is the mission of 

12 the workgroup. Then you have to have 

13 procedures to implement that mission.

14 So, in effect, once you have the 

15 mission statement, the next step is to draft 

16 implementing procedures. We have done that 

17 before. In other words, when we were given a 

18 role of, for example, reviewing site profiles, 

19 the first thing we did is what procedure are 

20 we going to follow to review site profiles? 

21 We developed a scorecard. We did this for 

22 dose reconstruction reviews. We did that for 
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1 procedure reviews.

2 Are we now saying that, well, now 

3 we have a new mission statement, new mission 

4 for the Board, which deals with outreach? 

5 Once that mission statement is articulated, 

6 then it becomes a matter of writing an 

7 implementing procedure for that mission 

8 statement, which it sounds like we're trying 

9 to do on the fly right now? That is very 

10 difficult to do, especially since we haven't 

11 really laid out the mission statement in a way 

12 that we are all seeing it the same way.

13 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Well, it seems 

14 to me before we even -- the mission statement 

15 is still a work in progress, obviously. And 

16 before we would define, try to define, a 

17 procedure, to follow that mission statement, 

18 you know, does SC&A have someone on staff that 

19 can put together a framework to give us an 

20 evaluation progress that they can measure 

21 effectiveness?

22 MR. MAURO: That is what we do in 
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1 all of our reviews. We write up a procedure 

2 for evaluating the completeness, the accuracy 

3 of the dose reconstruction, the scientific 

4 validity of the procedure, the completeness of 

5 the site profile, et cetera, et cetera. And 

6 so we always have a template, standardized 

7 approach for performing the actions that the 

8 Board requests of us.

9 Once there's a mission statement, 

10 I can see SC&A writing up a protocol. It 

11 could be quantitative, and it could be 

12 qualitative -- we have done both -- for 

13 performing the functions that are laid out in 

14 the mission statement.

15 For example, right now from the 

16 early conversations -- I was on for about a 

17 half-hour now. But, you know, there will be 

18 data obviating the Outreach Tracking System 

19 that is being developed, information acquired 

20 from interviews and other data capture efforts 

21 from people, science experts, claimants, et 

22 cetera.
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1 Now, I could see one of the action 

2 items being the degree to which the 

3 information that has been captured in the 

4 database has been used effectively in the 

5 various work products that NIOSH prepares.

6 Let's say it's a site profile and 

7 we would prepare a scorecard and evaluate all 

8 of the pieces of information that were 

9 captured in the interview process, for 

10 example, that's in this database now.

11 And the degree to which it was I 

12 guess articulated and dealt with in the work 

13 product that NIOSH puts out. I mean, that is 

14 an example that comes to the top of my head as 

15 the kind of thing that we could do on behalf 

16 of the workgroup and then prepare a report.

17 We would do this from time to time 

18 under the direction of the workgroup. That 

19 is, could you please prepare a report? Let's 

20 say we're rolling along on Mound. And the 

21 question becomes, okay. How well did the 

22 Mound site profile or evaluation report in 
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1 final form articulate and reflect 

2 consideration of all of the information that 

3 was obtained during the Outreach Program? 

4 That would be an example of a part of a 

5 procedure that would implement the mission.

6 MEMBER MUNN: But a great deal of 

7 that sounds as though it would have to be 

8 subjective, as it usually is, John.

9 MR. MAURO: Sure is. Yes.

10 MEMBER MUNN: And until we address 

11 at least the meat of Kathy's suggestion, it 

12 would be a little difficult to identify the 

13 finer points, I would think. Her suggestion 

14 that the first item that we considered be how 

15 well the procedure has been followed is 

16 probably enough in itself to fill out a 

17 worksheet, a single worksheet, the kind of 

18 thing that we usually do when you look at 

19 that.

20 I guess my real question, then, 

21 is, is this the right time for us to be 

22 considering SC&A to put together a framework 
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1 or do we still have work to do before we get 

2 to that point?

3 In my view, we still have work to 

4 do before we get to the point that we can be 

5 clear about what we are asking them to do. 

6 Maybe not.

7 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: We have work to 

8 do more than the mission statement.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Well, yes. We have 

10 to factor into the mission statement all of 

11 this material here.

12 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Right.

13 MEMBER MUNN: And if this is going 

14 to be a part of what we anticipate and the way 

15 of assessment, then that is information that 

16 SC&A needs to know also more than just 

17 procedure 12 before they begin to undertake 

18 some effort to provide a framework to hang the 

19 questions on.

20 MR. MAURO: You know, this is 

21 John. It's somewhat of an iterative process. 

22 It's almost like the chicken and the egg 
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1 problem. That is, maybe it's not a linear 

2 process where you identify a mission. And 

3 then given a mission, you write procedures of 

4 what it is you are going to do under that 

5 mission statement.

6 You know, sometimes it goes the 

7 other way. That is, what are some of the 

8 things that intuitively one would say that 

9 these would be good things to do in order to 

10 evaluate the effectiveness of the Outreach 

11 Program? We're starting to talk about some of 

12 these things.

13 Maybe it's an iterative process 

14 where you sort of put up a straw man of the 

15 various things that might be reasonable to do, 

16 almost like a laundry list, a brief couple of 

17 sentences describing or maybe a paragraph 

18 describing three, four, five, six different 

19 kinds of things that the workgroup with the 

20 assistance of its contractor might consider 

21 doing, actually doing, and then feeding back 

22 to the Board.
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1 Then that could also be fodder for 

2 okay. It almost like helps to create what the 

3 mission is. It's a funny thing. It goes both 

4 ways. To start the mission statement, you 

5 say, "Well, okay. Now what do we do to 

6 implement it?" Maybe you want to do a little 

7 bit of both.

8 We already took a shot at the 

9 mission statement. And there is a lot of 

10 discussion. And now we talk a little bit 

11 about what are some of the things we are going 

12 to do? What are some of the things we are 

13 going to measure: qualitatively and 

14 quantitatively?

15 And maybe a little bit of that is 

16 needed now. We might be at that point. And 

17 then let the two feed off each other and then 

18 see how they all come together.

19 MEMBER MUNN: A dozen of those in 

20 a two-sentence --

21 MR. MAURO: Something like that, 

22 not a big effort. This would be still 
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1 conceptualization of the kind of thing that, 

2 let's say, SC&A thinks might be worth doing 

3 and feeding back to the workgroup as being 

4 measures of performance.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Correct. That would 

6 be very helpful, I think, in how we decide how 

7 to proceed.

8 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: I think that 

9 sounds like a good idea. Josie, are you okay 

10 with that, too?

11 MEMBER BEACH: Yes. We were just 

12 looking for the procedure Larry had mentioned, 

13 the ORAU-031.

14 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Well, then can 

15 we agree that --

16 MS. ZACCHERO: I can e-mail it to 

17 you.

18 MEMBER BEACH: That would be 

19 great. Thank you.

20 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: -- that we want 

21 SC&A to go ahead and start putting together a 

22 straw man, a list of things that they think 
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1 might feed into the mission statement as we 

2 review the information for the mission 

3 statement, see how they collide before the 

4 next meeting?

5 MEMBER MUNN: I would like that.

6 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay.

7 MEMBER BEACH: I would agree with 

8 that. And I think it is also real important 

9 to get on the website and to be able to start 

10 looking at that. I know we have mentioned it 

11 many times. And that is one of your action 

12 items.

13 MR. ELLIOTT: I will give you an 

14 answer on an action item right now, if I 

15 might. Leroy Turner tells me the Board 

16 members and its contractors will need to 

17 complete all the security requirements to 

18 receive the CDC log-in credentials.

19 So once you have done your 

20 security training, given your fingerprints, 

21 background checks have been done, you have got 

22 a user ID and a key fob, then you will get 
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1 access.

2 MR. KATZ: Seven Board members 

3 have that about.

4 MR. ELLIOTT: And so if anybody 

5 has that or -- Leroy thinks that is all going 

6 to come due within the next couple of weeks. 

7 And then we are ready to give you access.

8 MEMBER BEACH: And that'll be more 

9 -- once we have access to that, then will we 

10 need more passwords and security to get on 

11 that or will it be --

12 MR. ELLIOTT: No. Once you are in 

13 the system, it will go to this.

14 MEMBER BEACH: It won't be like 

15 that calendar. Thank you. Okay. I am going 

16 to try. I should have all of my stuff. I am 

17 going to try after this meeting.

18 MR. ELLIOTT: The Board members 

19 don't have multiple passwords. So why would 

20 they want anybody else having them?

21 MEMBER BEACH: I don't know. That 

22 is a good question.
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1 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: So once we have 

2 our key fob and our ID, we have met all of the 

3 other requirements?

4 MR. KATZ: Yes.

5 MEMBER BEACH: Okay.

6 MR. ELLIOTT: And once you have 

7 that, you tell --

8 MR. KATZ: Leroy knows it. Leroy 

9 knows the individuals.

10 MR. ELLIOTT: You can get access, 

11 and we can walk you through the access.

12 MEMBER BEACH: I should have that. 

13 So I am going to try it out today after this 

14 meeting and see if I can --

15 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: I got my 

16 password last night.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, you did? How 

18 great. All right. You get a gold star.

19 MR. ZEITOUN: So what is next now, 

20 Chairman?

21 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Well, I think 

22 that we are now officially tasking SC&A to put 
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1 together a short list of things that they 

2 believe need to be evaluated to make an 

3 effective mission statement.

4 The members along with SC&A and 

5 obviously NIOSH would have input. Larry has 

6 already given some good ideas. We will be 

7 working at putting together a mission 

8 statement, provide draft number 2.

9 And then when we come together for 

10 the next meeting, SC&A has their list together 

11 and we have our second draft of the mission 

12 statement.

13 We will come together and see if 

14 they complement each other or they show a hole 

15 in one of the items.

16 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Who is 

17 going to do the revision?

18 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: The revision of 

19 the mission statement? I will start that. If 

20 anyone has their own revisions and comments, 

21 please e-mail them to me. And I'll send them 

22 back out to everyone else.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Now, I would hope 

2 that everyone would have some comments and 

3 send them in to Mike so that we have multiple 

4 views of how the mission statement needs to 

5 be, if there's any correction that needs to be 

6 made or any formatting changes that are 

7 reasonable.

8 MR. KATZ: And just for 

9 clarification, I think what John was saying, 

10 in part, was that he would think about and 

11 with others to not just the mission statement 

12 but implementation plans and then see how 

13 those may inform the mission statement by 

14 coming up with specific implementation plans 

15 like the example he gave about evaluating the 

16 impact of input on the Mound site profile.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

18 MR. KATZ: That is just an 

19 example, but that is an actual concrete 

20 implementation plan for an evaluation. And it 

21 sort of informs how you think about your 

22 mission.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: What specifically 

2 are we going to look at?

3 MR. KATZ: Yes.

4 MR. MAURO: Yes. That was Ted 

5 speaking, I believe?

6 MR. KATZ: Yes.

7 MR. MAURO: That's exactly what I 

8 had in mind. That is, you know, you come up 

9 with some particular things that you think 

10 might be valuable, as Mike said.

11 And then when we get back 

12 together, we are prepared to see if the 

13 mission statement and the kinds of things we 

14 think might be useful make. And that will 

15 help formalize, finalize the mission 

16 statement.

17 And then maybe at that point, once 

18 we get to the point where yes, this is our 

19 mission statement and we have a pretty good 

20 idea of the kinds of things we want done, the 

21 next step might be the actual implementation 

22 procedure, the checklist and so forth, that 
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1 implements that mission statement taking into 

2 consideration the examples that we developed.

3 So I think this is a tractable 

4 process that will get us where we are trying 

5 to get.

6 MR. KATZ: Right.

7 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. Is there 

8 anything else we need to discuss other than --

9 MR. ELLIOTT: NIOSH had two action 

10 items. I believe we completed them both 

11 today. NIOSH will continue to work on 

12 developing the Outreach Tracking System and 

13 populate it with additional information. ORAU 

14 is going to submit things to that for us to 

15 populate it with some of the first contract 

16 efforts.

17 I think that is what is on our 

18 plate. And we are going to get to a --

19 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: You don't have 

20 to repeat it, just however you want.

21 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes. We are going 

22 to put the schema on paper and flesh out 
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1 additional information about each one of those 

2 that you might find pertinent and interesting.

3 MR. KATZ: And also, Larry, I 

4 mean, if you have evaluation wishes, certainly 

5 let them be known as well. That will feed 

6 into this process.

7 MR. ELLIOTT: Okay. Good. Glad 

8 to hear that.

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And we had 

10 another action item that was still hanging out 

11 there. And that is to attend the 

12 information-gathering worker outreach meeting. 

13 We need to be notified when that is going to 

14 occur.

15 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. Can SC&A 

16 be put on the schedule thing that Larry puts 

17 out?

18 MR. ELLIOTT: Sure. And we will 

19 let you know when the next one happens. I 

20 don't know that there is any planned right now 

21 in the schedules.

22 MR. ZEITOUN: I give you my card 
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1 so you can put us on the distribution.

2 MR. ELLIOTT: Sure.

3 MEMBER BEACH: Well, there was 

4 some talk of SC&A reviewing the new procedure. 

5 And there was talk of them not needing to. 

6 So I guess I am wondering if that is something 

7 we want to discuss as a workgroup. And do we 

8 want SC&A to officially review 12?

9 MEMBER MUNN: I have not reviewed 

10 12 thoroughly myself. And the suggestion that 

11 was made earlier, I think, was that until we 

12 have reviewed 12 to see whether we feel that 

13 it needs additional review or not, it would be 

14 wise for us to postpone that for at least one 

15 meeting.

16 MEMBER BEACH: Okay.

17 MEMBER MUNN: But perhaps that was 

18 no general consensus on that.

19 MR. ZEITOUN: Regardless, you 

20 know, we have to read it. It's an issue. We 

21 cannot really try to --

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
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1 MR. ZEITOUN: It has to be read.

2 MR. KATZ: Yes. My only point, I 

3 made the comment. My only point was that once 

4 the Board members review that procedure, you 

5 may not feel like you need a technical review 

6 with a document from SC&A giving the review 

7 for it. It may be basic enough information 

8 that you don't need that kind of technical 

9 review from SC&A.

10 MR. MAURO: Right now I think I 

11 read through a PROC-012. And it seems that 

12 that lays out a nice menu of the different 

13 kind of things that are going to be done and 

14 the different kind -- I think in the 

15 attachment, there were all the different forms 

16 that will be completed. I guess that is part 

17 of this database you folks were looking at 

18 earlier.

19 I see that particular document as 

20 being very helpful to us in identifying the 

21 kinds of things that we might want to do 

22 within that framework. That is, given that 
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1 this the procedure that NIOSH is following, 

2 right now we will take that as is and say, 

3 "Okay. What are the kids of things that the 

4 Board and SC&A as the contractor might want to 

5 do to evaluate the effectiveness and 

6 performance of that program?"

7 As far as reviewing, in a funny 

8 sort of way, I think as far as reviewing the 

9 procedure itself, I think it might be 

10 premature. Please take this as the way I 

11 think about things. I would rather see what 

12 are some of the things that we think might be 

13 useful in terms of evaluating performance of 

14 the Outreach Program within the context of 

15 PROC-012?

16 And then cone we do that, also we 

17 will have some insight because, in effect, 

18 when we do that, we will be effectively 

19 getting our thoughts together on what we think 

20 about PROC-012. I think it will happen all by 

21 itself if you see what I am saying.

22 MR. ZEITOUN: John, this is Abe. 
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1 The only thing that I would say, I reviewed 

2 and I concur with you that it's a well-done 

3 procedure. However, I would recommend --

4 probably Larry would -- it's not a criticism. 

5 But I think if we reach a conclusion, an 

6 agreement among ourselves regarding the 

7 definition of the outreach and it becomes 

8 embedded in yours and it's embedded in ours, 

9 we will go into a meeting the same way.

10 So that is the only thing that I 

11 would say it will make it more focused.

12 MEMBER BEACH: Sounds fair.

13 MR. MAURO: And I think that this 

14 process of identifying things that we would 

15 like to do that we think might be useful will 

16 almost drive the definition.

17 MR. ZEITOUN: Right.

18 MR. MAURO: You see, it almost is 

19 like things actually happen backwards. The 

20 definition of the scope is may very well be 

21 self-defined, self-emerged from the kinds of 

22 things --
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1 MR. ZEITOUN: And that's what 

2 happened today, actually, John. That's what 

3 happened today. All of the discussion led to 

4 refining the objectives of the outreach.

5 MR. MAURO: Yes.

6 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Kathy?

7 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay. If 

8 we are not going to review 12, because 

9 OTIB-0097 went away, are we just going to 

10 ignore the findings that we have on that that 

11 may still be applicable?

12 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Yes. I think 

13 we'll do that. I mean, I don't know that 

14 we'll take any action on them right now. 

15 Let's go ahead and get the things done that we 

16 have defined here today. And then once this 

17 group takes a little more structure, you know, 

18 then we can go back and look at these findings 

19 and definitely see which ones are still 

20 applicable. Does that sound right to 

21 everyone?

22 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
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1 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: Okay. Anything 

2 else before we talk about the next meeting?

3 MEMBER BEACH: That was going to 

4 be my next suggestion. So that is good.

5 SCHEDULING NEXT MEETING

6 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: I would like to 

7 get tentatively the next meeting scheduled so 

8 we will keep this thing on track now that it 

9 seems like we're getting a little momentum 

10 here at no one's fault but mine.

11 MR. ELLIOTT: You waited on us for 

12 a long time.

13 MR. ZEITOUN: It's Larry's. It's 

14 Larry's.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MR. ELLIOTT: It is always 

17 Larry's.

18 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: So if we look at 

19 something you say shortly after the next full 

20 Board meeting, would that give everyone enough 

21 time to --

22 MR. ELLIOTT: The first week in 
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1 August sometime are you suggesting? The next 

2 Board meeting is the last week in July, right?

3 MR. KATZ: Yes.

4 MEMBER MUNN: I can't do the first 

5 week in August. For the sake of impact on my 

6 schedule, the second week in August would be 

7 idea. Our Procedures is scheduled for 

8 Thursday, the 13th. Wednesday, the 12th would 

9 be great.

10 MR. KATZ: That is fine.

11 MEMBER BEACH: I am clear, too.

12 MEMBER MUNN: August 12th.

13 MR. KATZ: August 12th, is that 

14 good for you?

15 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: It's good for 

16 me. Is it good for you, Ted?

17 MR. KATZ: Phil, is August 12th 

18 good for you?

19 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: August 12th? I 

20 believe so. I believe that will be okay. I 

21 don't know of anything I've got going on that 

22 date.
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: Submit time cards. 

2 That's a good date.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay. August 12, next 

4 meeting.

5 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: As Wanda says, 

6 is there anything else for the good of the 

7 order?

8 (No response.)

9 CHAIRMAN GIBSON: If not, I 

10 declare this meeting adjourned.

11 MR. KATZ: Thanks to everyone on 

12 the line as well.

13 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

14 was concluded at 3:41 p.m.)

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