1 

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON SAVANNAH RIVER SITE

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY

NOVEMBER 10, 2010

+ + + + +

The Work Group convened via 

teleconference at 1:30 p.m., Mark Griffon, 

Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

MARK GRIFFON, Chairman

MICHAEL GIBSON, Member

JAMES LOCKEY, Member

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Member
2 

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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

DAVID ANDERSON, Law Offices of Bob Warren

ROBERT BARTON, SC&A

MEL CHEW, ORAU

HARRY CHMELYNSKI, SC&A

JENNY LIN, HHS

MICHAEL MAHATHY, ORAU

ARJUN MAKHIJANI, SC&A

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

ROBERT MORRIS, ORAU

JAMES NETON, DCAS

LAVON RUTHERFORD, DCAS

TIM TAULBEE, DCAS

BOB WARREN, Law Offices of Bob Warren
3 

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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Roll Call 4 

 

Update on Action Items 9 

Scheduling Discussion 78

Petitioner Comments 84

Public Comment 90

Adjournment 104
4 

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (1:31 p.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: This is the Advisory 

4 Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Savannah 

5 River Site Work Group. This is going to be, I 

6 think, a relatively brief call because we're 

7 really sort of trying to get on track with 

8 what's been accomplished and what work needs 

9 to get to be assigned for a full Work Group 

10 meeting to happen some time down the road.

11 Let's start with roll call, with 

12 the Advisory Board Members.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mark Griffon, 

14 Advisory Board Member, Chair of the Work 

15 Group. No conflict.

16 MEMBER LOCKEY: Jim Lockey, 

17 Advisory Board Member. No conflict.

18 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Phil Schofield, 

19 Work Group Member. No conflict.

20 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, 

21 Advisory Board Member. No conflict.
5 

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1 MR. KATZ: I don't think I heard 

2 Brad. Is Brad on the line? There's one Work 

3 Group meeting I think he couldn't meet and 

4 this might be it.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think he's 

6 traveling this morning.

7 MR. KATZ: Right, okay. Well, 

8 then let's go to NIOSH ORAU team.

9 DR. NETON: This is Jim Neton, 

10 NIOSH. No conflict.

11 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee, 

12 NIOSH. No conflict.

13 MR. RUTHERFORD: LaVon Rutherford, 

14 NIOSH. No conflict.

15 DR. CHEW: Mel Chew, ORAU team. 

16 No conflict.

17 MR. MORRIS: Robert Morris, ORAU 

18 team. No conflict.

19 MR. KATZ: Okay, welcome all of 

20 you. SC&A Team?

21 DR. MAKHIJANI: Arjun Makhijani, 
6 

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1 SC&A. No conflict.

2 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A. No 

3 conflict.

4 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Harry Chmelynski, 

5 SC&A. No conflict.

6 MR. BARTON: Bob Barton, SC&A. No 

7 conflict.

8 MR. KATZ: Very good. Federal 

9 officials and contractors for the feds: HHS or 

10 other departments?

11 MS. LIN: This is Jenny with HHS.

12 MR. KATZ: Good. How about any 

13 members of the public?

14 MR. WARREN: Bob Warren and David 

15 Anderson from the Law Offices of Bob Warren in 

16 Black Mountain.

17 MR. KATZ: Okay. Did you say Bob 

18 Warren and David Anderson?

19 MR. WARREN: Anderson, yes.

20 MR. KATZ: David Anderson. Any 

21 other members of the public?
7 

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1 Okay, Mike, it's your agenda. Let 

2 me just ask everyone on the line, please, mute 

3 your phones and if you don't have a mute 

4 button, use *6 because if everybody stays 

5 muted, the phone will be much, much more 

6 audible for everyone who is speaking and 

7 listening.

8 MR. MAHATHY: Mark and Ted, this 

9 is Mike Mahathy from the ORAU team.

10 MR. KATZ: Thank you, Mike.

11 MR. MAHATHY: You're welcome.

12 MR. KATZ: Glad to have you. 

13 Mark?

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you, Ted. 

15 Yes, I realize there's a great amount of 

16 interest on Savannah River SEC. There's -- I 

17 was the 25th caller to join the call. I do 

18 want to say, as Ted said up front, that this -

19 - I was trying to schedule a full Work Group 

20 meeting for Cincinnati, but realized that we 

21 may not have -- may not be far enough along 
8 

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1 with some of the action items to make it worth 

2 our while. But I did feel that it was 

3 worthwhile scheduling this call at least to 

4 update and make sure we're on the same page 

5 with actions and to just get some hard 

6 deadlines and set a meeting hopefully not too 

7 long after the full Advisory Board Meeting 

8 next week in Cincinnati, where we can go into 

9 depth into the individual findings and 

10 hopefully resolve. So my intent here is to go 

11 through -- SC&A put a draft memo out.

12 Ted, was this available to the 

13 public or has this not been cleared? I don't 

14 know. Ted?

15 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry, Mark. I was 

16 on mute. I'll have to check on that. I'm not 

17 sure that it was available to the public or 

18 not.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

20 Basically, I think everything we're saying 

21 here we'll keep those on the call informed, 
9 

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1 but it's basically a memo outlining all the 

2 findings from the matrix we've been working 

3 from and it outlines the action items, whether 

4 it be NIOSH, SC&A action items to move toward 

5 a path forward on resolution of some of these 

6 findings.

7 So I intend, in this meeting, just 

8 to go -- mainly go through the action items, 

9 you know, and just because I don't want to 

10 repeat the same discussions at the next Work 

11 Group meeting in Cincinnati on the substance 

12 of the findings. I think we're going to have 

13 to go through these in depth and it would take 

14 a fairly long time. But I don't think we're 

15 far enough along on some of them to do that 

16 today, so I want to stick to really getting 

17 the status updates, updates on the actions, 

18 make sure they're clear, make sure things are 

19 on a path to be completed and then schedule 

20 another meeting.

21 Laying it out that way, I -- maybe 
10 

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1 I can ask SC&A to just take the lead from 

2 their memo and I assume Tim Taulbee will 

3 probably be interjecting just to make sure 

4 we're all in agreement on the actions going 

5 forward. Tim Taulbee for NIOSH will be 

6 interjecting, if that's okay.

7 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay. This is 

8 Arjun from SC&A. To go over the first item, 

9 NIOSH had two reports on thorium, the first 

10 one after 1965. We have completed an internal 

11 review of that and are going over it. It's a 

12 little bit delayed going to the DOE, but that 

13 should happen very soon. So in a few weeks, 

14 the Work Group will have that. 

15 We were also to review Report 44. 

16 That I believe has been done and is at the 

17 DOE right now. That's the first item. John 

18 Mauro had wanted me to kind of write down our 

19 findings at this stage and I have reviewed our 

20 thorium 1965 report. It's just some details 

21 that are hanging there that it hasn't gone to 
11 

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1 the DOE yet. But these are our findings. Our 

2 principal author of this review was Joyce 

3 Lipsztein and I'm the main reviewer.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Let's 

5 just avoid discussion on the -- the summary of 

6 the findings is there which is useful.

7 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Hold off on 

9 discussing those.

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right, right. Of 

11 course, NIOSH will get the full report.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We'll get the 

13 full report, right.

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: The one kind of 

15 question I have for NIOSH is, in the 1964 time 

16 frame and then in the 773A Building before 

17 that, if I remember right, there was thorium 

18 handling and process. There are bioassay data 

19 from 773A. There was reprocessing of thorium 

20 target rods in 1964, several tons per day, 

21 four tons if I remember right. But we haven't 
12 

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1 seen any approach to dose reconstruction for 

2 anything other than the 300 area in the period 

3 of the '65 from NIOSH. And I'm wondering 

4 whether NIOSH intends to give us something.

5 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee 

6 with NIOSH. We will address those in a 

7 response to your report. I don't want to get 

8 into the details of why we did not include the 

9 1964 reprocessing and it really has to do with 

10 the uranium-233 was the product that was 

11 extracted. All of the thorium from the 

12 dissolved rods, as well as the mixed fission 

13 products as a result of that irradiation were 

14 directly sent to the tank farms so there was 

15 really no exposure from the canyon directly 

16 into the tank farms.

17 DR. MAKHIJANI: Well, there's also 

18 Building 773 bioassay data with positive 

19 bioassays. In your report, it says all 

20 bioassays are below detectable, but we didn't 

21 find that and all bioassays are from 773A, so 
13 

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1 obviously, there was thorium work going on 

2 over there and there were positive bioassays 

3 and we have seen nothing about that.

4 And we haven't done any analysis 

5 of that. All you're going to see from us is -

6 - on those counts -- is that we haven't seen 

7 anything from you. There's going to be no 

8 analysis of those things from us because we 

9 were just tasked with reviewing your reports 

10 and of course, after reviewing them, we found 

11 that quite a bit of thorium exposure, at least 

12 thorium handling and processing was not 

13 covered.

14 DR. TAULBEE: Like I said, when we 

15 get your report and I hope identified this in 

16 your report --

17 DR. MAKHIJANI: We have.

18 DR. TAULBEE: If this is missing, 

19 then we will respond to it at that time.

20 DR. MAKHIJANI: It's in the 

21 summary, so there will be, on this count, 
14 

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1 there will not be more than there is in the 

2 summary.

3 DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

4 DR. MAKHIJANI: I don't know where 

5 Mark wants to go with that.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm here. I'm 

7 sorry. NIOSH was calling me on the other 

8 line.

9 DR. MAKHIJANI: Mark, I was just 

10 having an exchange with Tim Taulbee that in 

11 regard to the 300 -- and I understand that 

12 they want to see our full report before 

13 commenting, but in regard to the thorium 

14 processing that was done in the pre-1965 

15 period in 773A where there are positive 

16 bioassay samples and there was in 1964 and 

17 '65, we are not going to say anything and we 

18 have no analysis of that. We weren't tasked 

19 with that. We're only reviewing what NIOSH 

20 has done. And in the course of reviewing the 

21 thorium documents we found that a lot of 
15 

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1 thorium processing that happened that wasn't 

2 covered in the report. So there's going to be 

3 nothing more in our report than what you see 

4 in the summary.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: These items are 

7 not covered.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I was going to 

9 say, I added on the action list for that, and 

10 I did miss a little of your exchange, but I at 

11 least heard Tim say that NIOSH will address 

12 this reprocessing question in the response to 

13 SC&A's review of the supplemental ER report, 

14 right?

15 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, and my 

16 comment to that was you're not going to see 

17 anything more than what you see right now. 

18 In our analysis, we have done no 

19 dose sort of potential evaluation, exposure 

20 potential evaluation. We have made a comment 

21 in the context of the Burning Ground that, you 
16 

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1 know, solvents were taken there and maybe 

2 there might be exposure potential.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I would just 

4 ask that NIOSH incorporate it in their 

5 response, even though it wasn't specifically 

6 addressed in the SC&A report. Is that fair, 

7 Tim, outline your strategy for that --

8 DR. TAULBEE: That's correct. 

9 That is where we will address that particular 

10 issue. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

12 DR. TAULBEE: Thank you.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, so that's 

14 an added action for Matrix Item 1.

15 DR. MAKHIJANI: And so for Matrix 

16 Item 2, actually the review of that started a 

17 little bit later, but a lot of the overview 

18 comment is the same as certain items are not 

19 covered, actually. In the latest meeting, 

20 NIOSH indicated that they were going to cover 

21 reprocessing operations in the Report 46, but 
17 

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1 Report 46 didn't have anything about 

2 reprocessing operations. So that's sort of 

3 the main thing that's missing. And then 

4 there's the full `71 period missing.

5 I would just point out the sort of 

6 gaps that we identified without going into the 

7 substantive findings of what we did analyze.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's 

9 fine.

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay. Matrix 

11 Issue 3, recycled uranium, we haven't received 

12 -- I didn't look today or yesterday --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And Arjun, I'm 

14 sorry.

15 Tim, if you have any -- if at any 

16 point you need any clarification on items or 

17 something that you think is missing or 

18 otherwise, please step in as Arjun is going 

19 through these, okay?

20 DR. TAULBEE: Sure, thank you.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right.
18 

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1 DR. TAULBEE: And in fact, on 

2 Issue 3 is one of those. We did provide a 

3 response to the Work Group on August 13th. 

4 That was our documented dated July 19th, where 

5 we did address the recycled uranium issue.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Your document 

7 dated July 19 from August 13th: I'm not 

8 understanding that. I'm seeing your document 

9 dated July 19th.

10 DR. TAULBEE: We didn't send that 

11 document to you all until August 13th.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay.

13 DR. TAULBEE: So that's why the 

14 two different dates, but yes. We provided a 

15 response to you all regarding recycled uranium 

16 in that document.

17 DR. MAKHIJANI: I'm looking at it 

18 and all you say is TBD is being updated to 

19 resolve this issue and Table 4.6 will be 

20 revised. But we don't have anything 

21 substantive.
19 

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1 DR. TAULBEE: Just a second here. 

2 I believe if you go to Appendix A of that 

3 particular report. Would somebody please mute 

4 whoever -- it sounds like a pencil is being 

5 sharpened. 

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: I put myself on 

7 mute. I'm trying to move away from -- yes. 

8 Sorry about that. I'll try to be as quiet as 

9 possible here.

10 DR. TAULBEE: Appendix A provides 

11 the update of what will appear in the TBD.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay, I guess I 

13 saw that you had said you are going to update 

14 the TBD and I looked further than that, so --

15 DR. TAULBEE: All right, so it 

16 seems like it might be in Appendix A. You can 

17 review --

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: Well, I'm looking 

19 at it, there's some numbers in Appendix A. 

20 And I guess you provided the references up 

21 front. We can begin a review of this if you 
20 

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1 want, Mark.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think that 

3 should be the action. SC&A should review 

4 these as they are outlined in Appendix A of 

5 that report. Okay. 

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay, let me write 

7 that down. I had a little bit of a mixup with 

8 the schedule. I didn't realize my electricity 

9 would be gone.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm capturing 

11 these too.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: Thank you. The 

13 next item is americium, curium and 

14 californium. Regarding the actual data for 

15 that, we haven't seen anything from NIOSH, so 

16 far as I know and there was one other issue 

17 about californium spontaneous fission that 

18 NIOSH had said, look at ICRP 68, and on that 

19 we agree with NIOSH. So there's no issue 

20 outstanding on that.

21 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee 
21 

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1 at NIOSH. Again, for clarification here, I'm 

2 not sure what our action is on that. We 

3 addressed the californium-252 issue with 

4 spontaneous fission in the fission fragments 

5 and it looks like SC&A agrees with us on this.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right.

7 DR. TAULBEE: I don't think --

8 that was the issue identified originally with 

9 this particular issue --

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: No, you see there 

11 are two issues. The californium-252 organ 

12 dose factor, so it came up as part of our 

13 review of the data, but the americium, curium 

14 and californium are the same as all the 

15 neptunium, polonium and so on. Is there a 

16 coworker model for the unmonitored workers and 

17 how are you going to address construction 

18 worker versus non-construction worker issues?

19 DR. TAULBEE: It's the same for 

20 all of these radionuclides.

21 DR. MAKHIJANI: It's the neptunium, 
22 

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1 polonium, recycled uranium. 

2 Now we have something on recycled 

3 uranium, but a product with the same issues. 

4 Is there a dose reconstruction model? And 

5 does that model include construction worker 

6 versus non-construction worker data? There's 

7 an adequacy of data issue and a CW versus NCW 

8 issue.

9 DR. TAULBEE: Let me ask you this. 

10 This is, again Tim Taulbee with NIOSH. When 

11 it comes to the coworker models, shouldn't we 

12 combine, then, this particular issue with 

13 Issue 11 which is your dose reconstruction 

14 approach for exotic radionuclides? 

15 DR. MAKHIJANI: I don't think so. 

16 I think they have always been listed as 

17 separate matrix items because, early on, you 

18 said you have data for these and we had begun 

19 looking at some data. In most cases, the data 

20 are pretty sparse, especially for construction 

21 workers and the exotic -- exotic always being 
23 

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1 a separate issue.

2 I'm looking at the matrix and I 

3 can read the matrix item. NIOSH proposes to 

4 use measured data or coworker model estimating 

5 dose with sufficient accuracy since data were 

6 collected for all three trivalent 

7 radionuclides rather than each separately. 

8 NIOSH proposes to assign a result of 

9 californium-252 as appropriate.

10 That's the context in which that 

11 other issue of californium-232 arose, but the 

12 main issue with these radionuclides is, do you 

13 have sufficient data and is there a coworker 

14 model and how are you going to apply that to 

15 construction workers. It's quite separate 

16 than the exotics issue.

17 DR. TAULBEE: Okay, so that we 

18 don't get this confused again then, can we add 

19 to the title, dose reconstruction for 

20 americium, curium, californium-252 for 

21 coworker models?
24 

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1 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, this is just 

2 a shorthand from the matrix. I mean it's very 

3 clear in the matrix.

4 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. It wasn't 

5 very clear to me from reading this response.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: It's just a title 

7 and the matrix itself is a condensation of 

8 items from the ER and the TBD review. I mean 

9 if we want to repeat the whole matrix item in 

10 every title or sentence, I'm happy to do that.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let me ask -- I 

12 just changed that title, just for 

13 clarification, Arjun. That's fine. But the 

14 substance of the -- let me get the action 

15 correct. It's for these three nuclides, the 

16 coworker model and adequacy of data question?

17 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, and for all 

18 of these things there's a construction worker 

19 versus non-construction worker question.

20 DR. TAULBEE: This, again, is Tim 

21 Taulbee. Thanks for clarifying that title 
25 

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1 there, Mark, because really what I think 

2 happened here is we have two issues in one. 

3 Yes, they're related, but only one of them we 

4 addressed and we felt that we were completed 

5 with our response and apparently there's 

6 another part here that we need to respond to 

7 still.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

9 DR. MAKHIJANI: Well, what it says 

10 here is dose construction data for Am, Cm, and 

11 Cs, and Cf-252 organ dose conversion factors.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that's 

13 fine. We don't need to harp on -- I got the 

14 action item down and we can -- and some of 

15 these, you're right, they repeat or the 

16 actions are similar, so we can go through 

17 these fairly quickly, Arjun. Go ahead.

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, and the next 

19 items are the same: coworker models for 

20 neptunium fission products and cobalt-60 and 

21 the same issues are involved there: adequacy 
26 

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1 of data and construction worker versus non2 construction worker. A8 is the same.

3 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee 

4 with NIOSH. 

5 Mark, if you'd like, I can give 

6 you a little bit of update on where we're at 

7 with those coworker models.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sure, that 

9 would be good.

10 DR. TAULBEE: We are currently 

11 assessing the neptunium and fission products 

12 including the cobalt-60 there. We had coded 

13 all of the whole body count data from Savannah 

14 River and we were working on the coworker 

15 model when we discovered that there was some 

16 data that was in a hard copy format that had 

17 not been coded.

18 To make a long story short, not 

19 all the whole body count data that was in 

20 NOCTS had been coded, so we're currently going 

21 through a recoding effort from that standpoint 
27 

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1 and once that's done, then we can begin to 

2 proceed with those coworker models.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. And in 

4 the meantime you need to also be considering 

5 the data-adequacy question and the 

6 construction worker, non-construction worker, 

7 but I won't harp on that, but can I ask Tim 

8 time lines on any of these? I know you 

9 offered some times before. I just want to get 

10 a sense.

11 DR. TAULBEE: My sense for this 

12 one, because of the recoding effort would be 

13 middle to late January.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And when you 

15 say this one, it's all three: neptunium, 

16 fission products, cobalt?

17 DR. TAULBEE: Right, well, the 

18 fission products and cobalt-60 are really 

19 combined together because of the whole body 

20 count data.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.
28 

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1 DR. TAULBEE: And the neptunium, 

2 yes, along those same lines.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I do want to 

4 keep all of this in mind in terms of setting 

5 up our next meeting as well.

6 DR. TAULBEE: Yes, certainly. I 

7 understand.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you. 

9 That brings us to -- did we do eight, Arjun, 

10 or is that separate?

11 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, eight is the 

12 same unless Tim has a separate update for 

13 that.

14 DR. TAULBEE: I do have a separate 

15 update for that. Again, this is Tim Taulbee 

16 with NIOSH. In this particular case, we've 

17 done some additional investigation as to the 

18 magnitude of this particular work and we got a 

19 report that's in draft and that's actually in 

20 comment resolution now that it's been drafted. 

21 And we're now proposing to develop a coworker 
29 

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1 model for this. Even though we have limited 

2 polonium bioassay, we believe that virtually 

3 everybody who was exposed to this material 

4 during the short campaign was monitored for it 

5 and we have their particular data. And this 

6 is a case of a small number of workers and 

7 we've cross-compared names versus the bioassay 

8 roster that we have for polonium and 

9 everything seems to match.

10 So again, this is a draft report 

11 that will be coming. It's currently in 

12 comment resolution. I expect that we'll have 

13 this done early to mid-December is when we'd 

14 be able to commit that to the Board.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can I ask --

16 this is Mark Griffon, can I ask, Tim, if your 

17 position is that you monitored everyone, is no 

18 coworker model being proposed?

19 DR. TAULBEE: That's correct. 

20 That's our current thoughts along this, but 

21 please keep in mind this is a draft and that 
30 

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1 could change once it goes through our comment 

2 resolution internal here.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sure, and I'm 

4 sure you're aware of past efforts in this 

5 regard, so I'm sure Jim Neton and others have 

6 talked to you about it, but it's always the 

7 concern of, are you sure that everyone 

8 involved in the particular campaign was being 

9 monitored, including the maintenance people 

10 that might have went through, others, you 

11 know.

12 DR. TAULBEE: Yes, I understand.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anyway, keeping 

14 that in mind.

15 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. Yes, sir.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Item nine, 

17 Arjun?

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, let me take 

19 item nine in two pieces. NIOSH's response to 

20 our review of TIB-75. And just to recall, our 

21 review of TIB-75 had two pieces in it. One 
31 

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1 was as a technical information bulletin in 

2 general where the assertion that claimant data 

3 are representative of the whole worker 

4 population was examined and NIOSH's specific 

5 examples from various sites were gone over.

6 And NIOSH has responded to that 

7 piece of our analysis, but the time we were 

8 asked to review this was in the specific 

9 context of Savannah River because that was a 

10 part of the basis in the Evaluation Report of 

11 NIOSH saying that we can use this claimant 

12 data for construction-worker SEC at Savannah 

13 River site. So we have also examined that in 

14 our review of TIB-75, but NIOSH has not 

15 responded to that part.

16 And the reason that it is 

17 relevant, not just for this matrix Issue 9, 

18 but for all the matrix issues that we've been 

19 discussing previously is that we found that 

20 the general proposition that non-construction 

21 worker internal exposure would bound 
32 

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1 construction worker internal exposure was not 

2 correct. It has a general proposition, 

3 although it does sometimes for some groups. 

4 And that you have to parse construction worker 

5 data by area and job type because some job 

6 types have much lower exposure potential and 

7 some have much higher and some areas have much 

8 higher.

9 If you do the ratio of 

10 construction worker to non-construction worker 

11 by area and job type, they're often quite a 

12 bit more than one. We have not seen any 

13 response to that, in general, not just in 

14 relation to tritium. Tritium, we are 

15 analyzing and there is a separate action item 

16 on that for us.

17 DR. TAULBEE: Again, this is Tim 

18 Taulbee with NIOSH. And this is an effort 

19 that has been underway and I think in my 

20 September email to you, Mark, I had indicated 

21 that I expected this particular early stage, a 
33 

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1 first part of response to this particular 

2 issue would be released by the end of October. 

3 That has not happened, obviously. But we are 

4 still working on that report and I do expect 

5 that that report will be available by the end 

6 of the month or early December. This 

7 specifically addresses the construction trades 

8 workers versus non-construction trades

9 workers, issues raised by SC&A in the context 

10 of tritium at this point because that's where 

11 we have the most data.

12 It's going to boil down to our 

13 method of evaluating whether there's a 

14 difference between the two populations and 

15 what I'm going to be looking for is buy-in 

16 from the Advisory Board that the method that 

17 we've proposed to make this evaluation is 

18 adequate, is appropriate and if you all agree 

19 to that. Once that occurs, if you do agree 

20 with it, then we can address the other issues 

21 such as uranium and plutonium for construction 
34 

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1 trades workers versus non-construction trades 

2 workers. And it's really kind of -- I was 

3 hoping to have this report out earlier, but 

4 due to resources and priority issues, we've 

5 not been able to get that report out just yet.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: I don't know that 

7 we have crossed wires here, because I 

8 understood from our action items that you were 

9 going to put up a larger tritium database and 

10 that we all agreed, as you mentioned, Tim, 

11 that we would hold off on the other 

12 radionuclides until we had looked at tritium 

13 and that it was for us to revisit our 

14 conclusions about tritium from the TIB-75 

15 review with this larger database which we have 

16 done. Our review is now essentially complete. 

17 I have gone over it and it has either gone to 

18 the DOE or will go to the DOE in the next few 

19 days.

20 And so are you doing a parallel 

21 sort of approach to this? We had suggested we 
35 

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1 roll up all the reactor areas. We've done 

2 that. We've looked at whether the larger 

3 database if we have the same conclusions or 

4 not as before and I can tell you that 

5 generally the conclusions are about the same. 

6 And we had some questions about the database, 

7 too.

8 DR. TAULBEE: I think this is 

9 going to be an issue that's going to be a very 

10 lengthy discussion when we get your report and 

11 when you get ours, because I don't think our 

12 conclusions are matching.

13 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right, right, but 

14 I thought that we were going to go first and 

15 then you would review that and now we'll have 

16 two sort of competing reports. I mean it 

17 doesn't matter to me, but that was my 

18 understanding is that we were reviewing the 

19 database that you would put up and that you 

20 would respond to that. But it's fine. 

21 Whatever Mark and the Work Group wants.
36 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I mean it 

2 seems like it's far along on both parts, so I 

3 don't think we -- I think we should stay with 

4 what we got right now.

5 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, right. Fair 

6 enough.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And do both in 

8 the meeting. So I have two actions that SC&A 

9 is completing. I guess it's in the final10 review stage. 

11 DR. MAKHIJANI: It's done.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And NIOSH will 

13 respond to the CW and NCW issue in a separate 

14 response probably by early to mid-December, 

15 right?

16 DR. TAULBEE: That's correct.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think we can 

20 move on to ten, Arjun.

21 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, okay. 
37 

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1 Tritides, as you see there, we participated 

2 with NIOSH in a tritide-related document 

3 review. Interviews have been cleared and they 

4 are being finalized, reviewed by interviewees, 

5 finalized. We were supposed to ask Joyce 

6 about two specific tritides and their 

7 solubility, lanthanum-nickel-aluminum tritide 

8 and palladium-rhodium tritide, if I'm reading 

9 this right, and we couldn't find any 

10 information about -- or data on the solubility 

11 of these two tritides. We didn't look a whole 

12 lot, but I consulted with Joyce and we had 

13 nothing ready to hand so we're waiting for 

14 NIOSH for this.

15 On the dose reconstruction model, 

16 we were waiting for NIOSH to issue its dose

17 reconstruction report and hear how you 

18 distinguish between CW and non-CW. We're not 

19 saying it applies in all cases.

20 So that's where we are. We have 

21 just this one action item outstanding that 
38 

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1 interviewees have to still respond. There 

2 will probably be another round of DOE review 

3 after that.

4 DR. TAULBEE: Okay, this is Tim 

5 Taulbee with NIOSH. We're at basically the 

6 same, maybe a little bit farther behind than 

7 you are with the interviews. We're still in 

8 the process of documenting those and 

9 finalizing them. We have not sent them back 

10 to the interviewees for their review yet. And 

11 I was surprised that you all have, but okay.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: Well, you know, I 

13 haven't talked to Kathy about this in a couple 

14 of weeks, so that was my understanding. Kathy 

15 did review this document before I sent it out. 

16 It says they have not yet been reviewed by 

17 interviewees. I can't tell from here if they 

18 have gotten them, but I presume they have.

19 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. So once we 

20 get ours documented, we'll send them back to 

21 the interviewees, as well, to get them 
39 

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1 finalized.

2 With regards to the two tritides 

3 that are listed. I do have one update, Mark, 

4 that you should be aware of on the lanthanum5 nickel tritide. The Savannah River Site is 

6 actually conducting a solubility study on that 

7 particular material in conjunction with 

8 Lovelace. And those results are expected by 

9 the end of the year, at least that was their 

10 schedule that I heard back in the August time 

11 frame. Whether that occurs or not by the end 

12 of the year, I don't know. I have not gotten 

13 an update from the site, but they are actually 

14 analyzing the lung solubility of that 

15 particular material.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. And 

17 Arjun, if I'm understanding item 2 correctly, 

18 you might have said this while I was making 

19 notes and I might have missed it, that you did 

20 -- when you say SC&A has found no information 

21 --
40 

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1 DR. MAKHIJANI: I just asked 

2 Joyce, you know. She is sort of our go-to 

3 person on this, whether there's any ICRP data 

4 and so on and she looked some and couldn't

5 find any.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, all 

7 right. So I think that's pretty clear. The 

8 actions there are pretty clear, right? 

9 And the third item, Tim, the model 

10 for tritides, obviously, is dependent on some 

11 of this other work. Is that -- what is the 

12 expectation with regard to your approach?

13 DR. TAULBEE: Our approach is, 

14 once we get these interviews finalized, we'll 

15 be writing up a report on the particular metal 

16 tritide exposures at the Savannah River Site. 

17 And I don't have a time line for that yet. 

18 I'm kind of backlogged here a little bit with 

19 the interviews and many of these other reports 

20 we're trying to get out. So I don't have an 

21 idea. My gut tells me it will be after the 
41 

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1 February Board meeting before we would have 

2 something resolved on metal tritides for 

3 Savannah River.

4 In other words, given the time 

5 lines --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, that's 

7 fine. I was just making notes. I wasn't 

8 shocked or anything.

9 DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But you're not 

11 necessarily waiting for this Savannah River 

12 Lovelace study or is that a factor in this?

13 DR. TAULBEE: It is a little bit, 

14 yes. Well, not really.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If it's 

16 available, you'll consider it, right, that 

17 kind of thing?

18 DR. TAULBEE: That is correct, 

19 yes. That is correct. That's a better way to 

20 say it. I think once we make the interviews 

21 available to the Board Members as well, I 
42 

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1 think you'll begin to get a little better 

2 clear view of the exposure potential in 

3 dealing with these materials. 

4 I know that Phil and Brad have 

5 definitely heard all of the discussions that 

6 we had going on and so they have a really good 

7 feel for these, I hope.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Arjun, anything 

9 else to add on that one?

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: Sorry?

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anything else 

12 to add on that item?

13 DR. MAKHIJANI: No, no, no.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, go ahead 

15 with Item 11.

16 DR. MAKHIJANI: Item 11, well, 

17 NIOSH has said that they're waiting for 

18 guidance from you. We have a partial list. 

19 It's stated here that they got much more than 

20 what you see here, other than what NIOSH has 

21 published. We'll send that to DOE for review 
43 

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1 by mid-November along with a whole bunch of 

2 other stuff, but basically we're waiting to 

3 hear from NIOSH about a dose reconstruction 

4 approach and they said they're waiting for 

5 Board guidance. So I don't know where we are 

6 on this.

7 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee 

8 with NIOSH. I'd like to get some 

9 clarification here. What we had asked for was 

10 from this list of all these radionuclides --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Arjun, can you 

12 mute when you're --

13 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, sorry.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thanks.

15 DR. TAULBEE: Okay. What we're 

16 asking for clarification here is that we have 

17 gross alpha analysis that was done for urine, 

18 gross beta analysis and gamma as well and we 

19 have whole body count data. So what I'm 

20 asking for is these exotic radionuclides, 

21 which ones are you all concerned about that 
44 

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1 would not be covered by the bioassay methods 

2 that were employed at the site? I'm not 

3 seeing any that are causing any concern to us, 

4 so that's what I'm asking for your feedback 

5 on.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I guess 

7 that's really a question for SC&A. I'm not 

8 sure.

9 DR. MAKHIJANI: You know, I don't 

10 know what extent of investigation we should 

11 do. To some extent, this is reminiscent to me 

12 of the Y-12 discussion that we had and Jim 

13 Neton is on the line. Y-12; it was said that 

14 there was no exposure potential and there may 

15 have been incidents in there, but they're all 

16 well documented and it turned out there was no 

17 data. The SEC was partly based on that and it 

18 was the same kind of thing, half the periodic 

19 table was produced at Y-12. So this seems, at 

20 least on the surface, reminiscent of that 

21 discussion and there's also broader Board 
45 

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1 discussion, as you know, Mark. When you say 

2 there's no exposure potential, what do you 

3 have to do to establish that? So if there's 

4 any guidance on what you want us to do, we're 

5 happy to do it. But there is a long list of 

6 radionuclides. We haven't seen data on it and 

7 I don't know -- I'm open to where you want to 

8 go with this or what you would like us to do.

9 Hello? Hello?

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, I'm sorry. 

11 I put it back on mute instead of taking it 

12 off. I was saying this is the listing -- all 

13 of these radionuclides were sort of short-term 

14 campaign whereas Savannah River was in the 

15 business of producing these nuclides, right? 

16 Is that correct?

17 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee. 

18 Yes, that's correct, they were producing 

19 these and they had bioassay for gross alpha. 

20 They had gross beta, mixed fission products 

21 and assay activation.
46 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So NIOSH's 

2 position is that the general bioassay program, 

3 even though they didn't have any nuclides 

4 specific necessarily for these, the general 

5 program would allow NIOSH to bound them using 

6 personal data, right?

7 DR. TAULBEE: That's correct.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess, Arjun, 

9 that's where SC&A needs to weigh in.

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay, my 

11 suggestion would be that it might be more 

12 efficient for us to see how NIOSH is going to 

13 use that data because they haven't yet said 

14 how they're going to use the fission-product 

15 data to do dose reconstruction on construction 

16 workers and maybe once we looked at that, we 

17 can comment at that time. There's work you 

18 want us to do now in terms of seeing whether -

19 - I mean fission product data, I imagine, are 

20 largely related to the reprocessing of waste 

21 tank operations and so on. If you want us to 
47 

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1 look at whether there's any overlap where 

2 these radionuclides were worked on and where 

3 the fission product exposure might be, we can 

4 do that, but -- or we can wait until we see 

5 NIOSH's approach to fission products.

6 And some of these are not fission 

7 products. I don't know where you go with 

8 that.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Clearly, some 

10 are not fission products, yes. I guess if you 

11 think it would clarify things, once you saw 

12 NIOSH's approach on fission products, would 

13 that be --

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: I think for any of 

15 them, since NIOSH is saying we have a general, 

16 unless I misunderstood, Tim, that we have a 

17 general sort of bioassay program. A few of 

18 these are repeats from radionuclides we 

19 already covered like cobalt and neptunium and 

20 so on. And many of them are in the middle of 

21 the periodic table, but some of them are not: 
48 

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1 iridium-192, protactinium-231, plutonium-238 

2 and so on.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I've got to say 

4 most of the transuranic types were covered in 

5 earlier issues, weren't they?

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, they are. 

7 But not all.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Not all, yes.

9 DR. MAKHIJANI: Americium-243m 

10 would be one that's staring at me from this 

11 list that's in front of me.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And U-233, I 

13 don't think that was --

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, U-233, we 

15 have covered that.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

17 DR. MAKHIJANI: Because we punted 

18 on uranium for the moment until we look at 

19 tritium.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean I don't 

21 know if you can in a short statement, Tim, 
49 

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1 possibly just describe how -- if you had a 

2 situation where a worker were potentially 

3 exposed to one of these quote unquote exotics 

4 such as U-233, not listed in other areas of 

5 our actions, how that would be treated. I'm 

6 assuming that you would use gross alpha and 

7 then assume they had potential for several 

8 different nuclides and take the worst case for 

9 internal dose. I'm not sure, though. Is that 

10 what we want to sort of get an answer on, 

11 Arjun, how --

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, I'm a little 

13 worried about this because we've got a couple 

14 of layers of problems here. We've got three 

15 radionuclides that were produced in a 

16 particular area of Savannah River site but 

17 separate from the reprocessing plant and then 

18 some of these went through some kind of 

19 separations process to extract them and some 

20 of them may not have. I'm not sure. I 

21 haven't researched it. 
50 

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1 So the first thing to establish is 

2 whether the workers who worked with these 

3 things, whether the bioassay data of fission 

4 products that's available or gross alpha, 

5 whatever, has anything to do with the workers 

6 who are handling these materials. So if they 

7 didn't -- and bioassay data is not applicable, 

8 would not be applicable to these workers. 

9 The second thing is we have this 

10 big issue of construction worker versus non11 construction worker data that, in this context 

12 might be particularly difficult because you 

13 know, they were doing similar -- it's very 

14 clear that they were doing similar kinds of 

15 work and that their exposure potential was 

16 comparable, sometimes less, sometimes more 

17 than nonconstruction workers, DuPont workers.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Here's what I 

19 want to ask --

20 DR. MAKHIJANI: I don't know where 

21 we go with that. I'm open to whatever your 
51 

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1 guidance is.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Here's what I 

3 like to have, Arjun. My feeling is that 

4 possibly SC&A should take a closer look at 

5 this and if you could, it might be in the 

6 original report it got much more granularity, 

7 I'm not sure. But if you can go through this 

8 list and sort of edit it because some of these 

9 are already addressed in other areas of our --

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay, sure.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But then also 

12 give more -- if it's not in your original 

13 report, provide a little more granularity, at 

14 least some examples if one of these other 

15 isotopes like U-233; if it was in a particular 

16 production area, give a little more 

17 specificity on why you -- I think part of the 

18 finding has to point to the issue of you don't 

19 think it can be reconstructed with the data 

20 available. So I think you have to sort of --

21 it might be in your original report. I'm not 
52 

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1 sure. 

2 DR. MAKHIJANI: It's not. There's 

3 no report on dose reconstruction aspects for 

4 exotics. We're just compiling a list to see 

5 what might have been produced, when, what 

6 documents are part of the database. We 

7 haven't done anything more than that. It's 

8 just very, very minimal. 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let me ask you 

10 to edit the list a little bit, and to the 

11 extent you can, provide a little more 

12 specificity about some of the concerns, 

13 whether these were like short-term things --

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: Could I request 

15 that we see from Tim why he thinks that 

16 fission -- or NIOSH, why they think that 

17 fission product data is applicable to so many 

18 of these things and whether they were viewed 

19 in the same main areas for a fission product? 

20 We can do that, that's fine. That's not a 

21 problem, but normally we respond to NIOSH when 
53 

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1 they say how they're going to do this. The 

2 concern is we haven't seen that.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They are going 

4 to provide the fission product report for the 

5 other item, right?

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right, right.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If you can do 

8 this in the meantime, it may not answer the 

9 question, but it might move the ball a little 

10 down the road.

11 DR. MAKHIJANI: Sure, we can do 

12 that.

13 MEMBER GIBSON: Hey, Mark.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, go ahead, 

15 Tim.

16 MEMBER GIBSON: This is Mark.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, Mark, hi.

18 MEMBER GIBSON: This issue we're 

19 talking about sounds really familiar, almost 

20 similar to what went on at Mound when we had 

21 problems there with the bioassay program 
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1 during the production years. Is that 

2 basically what we're talking about, where they 

3 just tried to use bioassay sampling and didn't 

4 look at the specific isotope?

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think 

6 the question is, you know, these people were 

7 under a general bioassay program and there is 

8 data, but will it sort of -- can NIOSH use 

9 this for these particular campaigns of exotics 

10 that intermittently occurred over the years. 

11 I guess that's the question, Mike. Yes. So 

12 it has some similarity to some of the Mound 

13 stuff. Same kind of issue, but I don't think 

14 we're far enough along to figure out the 

15 specifics.

16 MEMBER GIBSON: Right. I just 

17 wanted to say I'm very interested in this 

18 issue, too. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay.

20 MEMBER GIBSON: Thanks.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you. 
55 

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1 Let's go on to 12, Arjun, if you could.

2 DR. MAKHIJANI: I was on mute. 

3 Number 12 is the incidents question. Just a 

4 second. Internal dose incidents. We have --

5 have we sent -- did we send you a list of 

6 incidents or this at DOE right now? Let me 

7 see. No, our internal report is complete. I 

8 will send you a list. 

9 The short of it is that we found 

10 many incidents and we agree that they're not 

11 all in the Special Hazards Investigation 

12 Index, but there are also other repositories 

13 of incidents and we found that none are 

14 complete. And in fact, year to year there's 

15 lots of incidents that were not recorded and 

16 that confirms what people have said in 

17 interviews. It also addresses part of what 

18 Bob Warren had been saying which is sort of 

19 the additional item at the end of this list. 

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Just to stick 

21 to the action.
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1 DR. MAKHIJANI: So the action item 

2 is that this report is essentially ready and 

3 it will go to the DOE for review soon and 

4 NIOSH will get it and the issue will be how 

5 are we going to reconstruct doses.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you think in 

7 three weeks or so it should be through DOE?

8 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, this is 

9 essentially complete.

10 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee. 

11 Just for my own clarification, you've written 

12 a report where you've identified some 

13 incidents and a discussion of this particular 

14 issue --

15 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes.

16 DR. TAULBEE: -- and you're going 

17 to be sending that to us. Okay.

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, and we not 

19 only identify incidents, we've also gone 

20 through documentation as to whether there are 

21 databases where data and documents that 
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1 indicate whether incident compilations are 

2 complete or not. And as indicated here, at 

3 least in the early years through to the mid4 '60s or early '70s, incidents don't appear to 

5 be complete.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And we'll save 

7 our discussion on that.

8 DR. MAKHIJANI: Exactly.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Whether the 

10 current versions will bound -- incorporate 

11 these or bound these or -- yes, okay.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: Now this report 

13 has been sent to the Work Group. The next 

14 matrix Item 13, report was sent to the Work 

15 Group on July 21st. We were asked to review 

16 whether we were making consistent statements 

17 with what our analysis of TIB-52 had been and 

18 our statements in the context of a Savannah 

19 River SEC. We found that it didn't change any 

20 position, that our statements had been pretty 

21 consistent and we sent that report along to 
58 

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1 the Work Group.

2 As part of this item, there's also 

3 a logbook review. We have finished the 

4 verification review of the four logbooks that 

5 Tim talked about and that is currently in 

6 internal review. I got that from Bob Barton 

7 two days ago, something like that.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So it should be 

9 completed early for DOE?

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. It is done. 

11 There was a fair amount of work to be done 

12 and we had to go through a long QA check and 

13 that is all complete now and we'll be sending 

14 that to DOE pretty soon.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Tim, anything 

16 to add there, clarify?

17 DR. TAULBEE: The only thing that 

18 I have to add is that there is a revision to 

19 OTIB-52 that is in the works. It's currently 

20 in comment resolution and so that's where that 

21 one's at. So there will be a revision to 
59 

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1 OTIB-52.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can you notify 

3 SC&A when that's complete? Because I think 

4 SC&A should probably -- well, I'm not sure 

5 whether this falls under Procedures Review or 

6 whatever, but it definitely overlaps with 

7 this. I think you need to review it in the 

8 context of Savannah River SEC.

9 DR. TAULBEE: Right.

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: That's the only 

11 context we've been looking at it here. 

12 There's a statement about plutonium bioassay 

13 data from the Savannah River site that has 

14 been the subject of a separate review, by us 

15 on Savannah River site in the course of this 

16 work. A little bit earlier, maybe April, 

17 earlier this year.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I put that 

19 the third action of NIOSH is completing our 

20 revision of TIB-52 and SC&A will review it 

21 when available in the context of SRS SEC.
60 

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1 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right. Open-pan 

2 burning. NIOSH is compiling air data and we 

3 looked at this briefly from the point of view 

4 of construction workers versus non5 construction workers and have -- we've gotten

6 no formal action item on this pending and I've 

7 reported our brief sort of findings on this 

8 update, and we hope that NIOSH will address 

9 these issues as it proceeds with its air 

10 monitoring data review.

11 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee 

12 with NIOSH. Yes, we do have, again, the draft 

13 report that is in the beginning stages of 

14 comment resolution, let's put it that way. I 

15 have seen it, but there's some more work that 

16 needs to be done on that. And it does address 

17 most of the issues that you've listed here, 

18 but there's a new one that you issued that it 

19 doesn't address and I'm not sure if you want, 

20 Mark, if you want SC&A to expand upon it. And 

21 that's the issue of the external exposure 
61 

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1 geometry of some of the workers around the 

2 burning ground area. 

3 Our initial response was just upon 

4 the internal side for open-pan burning of 

5 contaminated solvents and the analysis of that 

6 air data. So that's all that's in this 

7 current report and that was all we were going 

8 to do at this point.

9 I guess my preference, Mark, if 

10 you're agreeable to this, would be to let us 

11 issue our report and then if SC&A, who I'm 

12 sure will be reviewing this report, would like 

13 to introduce other comments or something along 

14 the external exposure at that time, they can 

15 elaborate on what it is and then we'll address 

16 it from that standpoint, but I'd like to try 

17 and issue the report as it is instead of 

18 trying to expand the scope of the current 

19 report, if that's agreeable, Mark?

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think 

21 that makes sense, especially if you're in the 
62 

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1 final stages of review of the drafts, right?

2 DR. TAULBEE: Yes. 

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I think we'd 

4 rather see it than hold it up, you know.

5 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, Mark. I 

6 agree with that, too. This external exposure, 

7 it just came up in the course of just looking 

8 at these documents. It was some pretty 

9 graphic documents about the transport of this 

10 waste. So I mentioned it for the sake of 

11 completeness, but I think since NIOSH already 

12 is looking at geometry in the context of 

13 another matrix item, this piece -- we'll 

14 review the Burning Ground piece and put this 

15 in there, but the external exposure piece 

16 probably better be dealt with in the context 

17 of path modeling probably. Yes, it's a 

18 geometry issue.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can I just 

20 clarify that one, Arjun. Can we drop the 

21 external geometry issue from this item, 
63 

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1 assuming that it's going to be addressed in 

2 the other section?

3 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, I think it 

4 might actually be more efficient to do that. 

5 I just put it here because it came up in this 

6 context and I think it might be more efficient 

7 to put the external exposure geometry in the 

8 text, in the Burning Ground in the other item.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If you're 

10 agreeable, I think that would work.

11 DR. MAKHIJANI: That's fine with 

12 me.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is that okay, 

14 Tim? Does it make sense?

15 DR. TAULBEE: Yes, it does.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Go ahead 

17 to item 15.

18 DR. MAKHIJANI: Well, 15 and 16, 

19 we've been talking about this ICP 

20 implications. Here we are -- this is an item 

21 on the tritium report. We've been talking 
64 

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1 about tritium and uranium and data adequacy 

2 and we agreed to do tritium first and we have 

3 done some of the preliminary or substantive 

4 status in giving to you there. I believe it 

5 is at the DOE for review right now or may be 

6 going in the next day or two.

7 DR. TAULBEE: And as I mentioned, 

8 Mark, again, this is Tim Taulbee at NIOSH. As 

9 I mentioned our report should be coming end of 

10 this month, early December, most likely early 

11 December, given the Thanksgiving holiday.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, so those 

13 both are in review and should be early 

14 December, right?

15 DR. TAULBEE: Yes.

16 DR. MAKHIJANI: And then the next 

17 two items, neutron dose reconstruction, and I 

18 don't believe we have anything from NIOSH on 

19 that.

20 DR. TAULBEE: That is correct. 

21 The 1962 -- let's see, start with Issue 17. 
65 

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1 Prior to '61, again, this is one that's been 

2 pushed out, unfortunately, but we're looking 

3 at the -- post the February Board meeting 

4 before we'll have anything to you all. The 

5 '62 to '71 time period, this would be matrix 

6 issue 18. I do hope to get a draft, actually 

7 a report out to the Board in early January 

8 concerning that particular issue. But I don't 

9 have any clearer date other than that at this 

10 time.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I think 

12 we can go ahead on to Issue 19.

13 DR. MAKHIJANI: Nineteen. Yes, 

14 this was a reactor incident question where a 

15 worker had mentioned there was an incident in 

16 the Heavy Water Components Reactor. We looked 

17 quite a bit for evidence of this. We didn't 

18 find any. We went back to the worker to see 

19 if we could get more specific information. He 

20 didn't have any more information and so we 

21 requested reactor investigation lists to see 
66 

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1 if we could find something, but basically, we 

2 didn't find anything. If the Work Group would

3 like to give us more direction as to how much 

4 to pursue this and what to do with it, because 

5 it's not clear to us how much more to pursue 

6 this.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And so -- I'm 

8 sorry, the interview didn't really give you 

9 any leads, is that what --

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. There was 

11 some specific information, a crack in the core 

12 of a Heavy Water Components Test Reactor and 

13 we didn't find any accident corresponding to 

14 this description. We have no date.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This isn't the 

16 one -- I mean, I remember when we did the 

17 tour, one was mentioned there was a crack, but 

18 I don't think it was this reactor.

19 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, I mean I 

20 found a couple of documents indicating a 

21 reactor named just like this, just from 
67 

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1 memory. I haven't written a report or 

2 anything on this since essentially we came up 

3 with no firm documentation about what might 

4 have happened. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It seems like a 

6 fairly big accident that would be pretty well 

7 documented and known of, you know?

8 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, so maybe 

9 we'll just wait to see what we get, if we get 

10 anything more from Savannah River Site records 

11 about reactor investigations, to see if we can 

12 find anything and let it be pending for now.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, was this 

14 mentioned in the petition or did just came up 

15 afterwards?

16 DR. MAKHIJANI: No, this came up 

17 in the interviews that we did in January of 

18 last year in Augusta, if I remember right.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But in the 

20 interview there weren't enough specifics to 

21 really --
68 

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1 DR. MAKHIJANI: That's right. So 

2 we did go back to the worker and ask if we 

3 could get more specifics. They told us what 

4 they remembered.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm just asking 

6 to the extent we can close this, NIOSH, in 

7 your research, Tim, have you guys run across 

8 any such incident that would fit this 

9 description?

10 DR. TAULBEE: Not for HWCTR, the 

11 Heavy Water Components Test Reactor, no, we 

12 have not. We did run into some information of 

13 the R Reactor, part of why it was shut down so 

14 early was there was some cracking, not in the

15 core, but in the vessel itself that was 

16 causing leaks. But that's as close as what I 

17 can get to something like this of a crack that 

18 was causing problems, but that wasn't this 

19 reactor. That was our reactor.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's the one 

21 we saw in our tour, right?
69 

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1 DR. TAULBEE: No, we saw C Reactor 

2 in our tour.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I 

4 remember hearing something about a crack in a 

5 vessel. It wasn't the core itself.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: So my suggestion 

7 is this be kind of tentatively closed and 

8 until we hear from reactor investigations, 

9 unless you want us to do more work. I can't 

10 imagine what that would be.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I don't 

12 know. It's kind of a dead-end thing. 

13 Tentatively closed, I agree.

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay, next NIOSH 

15 developing the model on external geometry and 

16 I see I've put the burning ground item in 

17 here, too, so it's in two places. I'll just 

18 delete it from the other place.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you.

20 DR. MAKHIJANI: And so we were 

21 waiting to see NIOSH's model.
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1 DR. TAULBEE: Again, this is --

2 wait a minute, I'm sorry. This is Issue 20, 

3 right? This is the exposure geometry for the 

4 tank farm, okay. Where we're at with this 

5 one, is again we have a draft report that's 

6 written. It's in comment resolution at this

7 time. It has been significantly delayed. I 

8 had expected it to be out at the beginning of 

9 or about the mid part of October, but it's 

10 going to take a little longer due to staffing 

11 and priorities.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So any 

13 expectation?

14 DR. TAULBEE: My expectation is 

15 that I'm hoping early December, but most 

16 likely January.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And Tim, I 

18 think I might be stating the obvious, but it 

19 would assume that you didn't consider the 

20 burning ground --

21 DR. TAULBEE: No, we did not.
71 

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1 DR. MAKHIJANI: You know, what I 

2 can do, Mark -- sorry, Tim.

3 DR. TAULBEE: May I go ahead?

4 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, what I can 

5 do, you know, I can put the documents where we 

6 found this in a folder and send you an email 

7 and Mark and send the Work Group an email and 

8 you can see where this item came from and take 

9 it where you would like.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, and it 

11 may end up we can track it as a separate item 

12 or say that it was adequately addressed in the 

13 response to 20 if that turns out to be true, 

14 you know. Is that okay on a path forward, 

15 Tim?

16 DR. TAULBEE: Yes, that sounds 

17 fine. I'm hoping that the sooner you can get 

18 us that information, the better.

19 DR. MAKHIJANI: Before the end of 

20 the week, I'll create a folder and send you an 

21 email.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, thank 

2 you. Put that as an action that SC&A will put 

3 info related to Burning Ground area.

4 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Next item is 

7 external adequacy. We've resolved this 

8 through HPAREH and OTIB-62 to review and a 

9 number of other things, so we don't this an 

10 SEC issue, at least we have no issue with 

11 external data adequacy, so far as dose 

12 reconstruction feasibility is concerned.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The only 

14 hesitancy I have here is I'm not sure the Work 

15 Group closed this as an SEC issue.

16 DR. MAKHIJANI: Sorry, I think we 

17 closed this as an SEC issue on the 5th of May. 

18 I'll have to go back and see.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I just wanted 

20 to check the transcripts, but if that's the 

21 case, at the very least we have concurrence 
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1 from SC&A that it's --

2 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, we don't 

3 believe --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Face-to-face, I 

5 would just ask that we check in again on that 

6 and make sure the Work Group is all okay with 

7 SC&A and NIOSH's outcome.

8 Okay --

9 DR. MAKHIJANI: And I'll look in 

10 the transcript and try to send you, if there's 

11 a piece, I'll send you a page reference.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. And then 

13 22 and 23?

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: We did that. We 

15 posted the interviews of the summary on the O: 

16 drive on the 20th of June. And 24, there's no 

17 action item recorded. And 25 has been merged 

18 with 14. So that's the end of the -- other 

19 than these additional matters --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Twenty-two and 

21 23, you posted these interview summaries and 
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1 is that as far as we got with that?

2 DR. MAKHIJANI: I mean really 

3 using the interview summaries in our own 

4 analysis as you heard me kind of sprinkle 

5 through my comments here and you'll see that 

6 in our reviews also, but since we also refer 

7 to these interviews, we've been asked to post 

8 interview summaries and we did that.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I mean, are 

10 all these issues raised by the petitioners 

11 addressed in separate actions in our matrix or 

12 do we need --

13 DR. MAKHIJANI: There is a 

14 spreadsheet, this is from memory from some 

15 time ago, but there's also a spreadsheet that 

16 is posted there with the petitioner items, if 

17 I recall correctly.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, can I ask 

19 that you just provide us, Arjun, with a review 

20 of those items? Now that the interviews are 

21 posted and everybody can look them over, can 
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1 you provide us with a -- just run through 

2 those items raised by the petitioner and make 

3 sure that we've addressed them in our matrix 

4 here.

5 DR. MAKHIJANI: I believe we have, 

6 actually. And I'll send you something in 

7 writing about that. This is also connected 

8 with the next item. I will do that.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: These are 

10 issues that we need to address, so we want to 

11 make sure we don't miss any. Okay.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: Initially, we were 

13 going to do a longer report until it got --

14 you know, we decided to do it in pieces and we 

15 compiled that petitioner-issued list in that 

16 context. Yes, you're right. We will do that.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Just provide a 

18 memo report.

19 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. Sure. So 

20 the next two items, 24 and 25, there's 

21 nothing.
76 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And can I ask 

2 on 24, I know there was no action from SC&A. 

3 I'm assuming there was no action for NIOSH, 

4 but where does the issue stand? Can you just 

5 flesh that out?

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: To my memory, I 

7 think this matrix item has become merged with 

8 all the other internal dose items because a 

9 lot of those actually have to do with early 

10 work, you know, thorium work, neptunium work, 

11 although neptunium might have gone on. 

12 So I don't know -- let me look at 

13 the matrix item to see --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If it goes 

15 away, just let us know and we'll just delete 

16 it.

17 DR. MAKHIJANI: Why don't I review 

18 it to see if it goes away and maybe NIOSH can 

19 review it too. Let me see what the full 

20 matrix item says. I have the matrix here.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.
77 

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1 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, I actually 

2 think this item is covered in the other items, 

3 but I'll send you something more formal about 

4 that. 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine. 

6 And 25 is covered in 14, right?

7 DR. MAKHIJANI: That's right, it's 

8 the same item.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm going to 

10 make that go away in our future discussions.

11 DR. MAKHIJANI: Okay.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. All 

13 right.

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: And then there was 

15 -- Bob Warren provided us -- he's the claimant

16 representative, and I believe he's on the line 

17 -- provided us with some documents and there 

18 was also some claimant information and we have 

19 not reviewed the issues relating to the 

20 specific claimants since we believe that was 

21 outside of our scope in this SEC review. But 
78 

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1 we have reviewed the other documents and we 

2 also reviewed the minutes of the NIOSH 

3 Outreach meeting to which Bob Warren referred 

4 to see whether the issues were covered in the 

5 other matrix items.

6 And basically, I believe that they 

7 are, a lot of them have to do with incidents 

8 and whether incidents have been properly 

9 recorded. Some of them have to do with non10 construction workers versus construction 

11 workers. And some of them have to do with why 

12 non-construction workers were excluded. Now 

13 that last piece, you know, is not -- it's 

14 basically a NIOSH, OCAS, DCAS decision. And 

15 we're not reviewing that except as we come up 

16 with non-construction worker issues that are 

17 related to construction workers, according to 

18 the direction from last time.

19 I don't believe that we need to 

20 add any new matrix items and if you would 

21 like, I can send you a memorandum of our 
79 

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1 review of these items. We do have quite a bit 

2 of work that we did on this. It was done 

3 mostly by Kathy Demers. I'd be happy to send 

4 you something in writing.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think that 

6 would be appropriate. Did you post this? You 

7 say comments were entered into a spreadsheet 

8 for easier tracking and sorting. Is this 

9 available to --

10 DR. MAKHIJANI: This, we have not. 

11 We have not posted anything like this. This 

12 has been an internal review just to give you a 

13 report and an update and to seek your guidance 

14 as to where to go next.

15 We'll just kind of review 

16 everything and clean it up and make sure it's 

17 readable by third parties and then post it. 

18 And I'll send you a memo.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The memo and 

20 your spreadsheet I think would be useful.

21 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, I will do 
80 

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1 that.

2 MR. KATZ: Arjun, this is Ted. 

3 The materials that were submitted, are they 

4 already posted on the Site Research Database?

5 DR. MAKHIJANI: You know, I think 

6 so, but I will have to ask. I'm not sure, 

7 Ted.

8 MR. KATZ: Okay, because that 

9 probably should be done in conjunction with 

10 this.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Agreed.

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes, sure.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean this 

14 sort of goes along with 22 and 23, but it was 

15 sort of additional comments, right, beyond the 

16 original piece.

17 DR. MAKHIJANI: Right. A lot of 

18 it is actually around matrix Item 12 about 

19 incidents and matrix Item 13 about 

20 construction workers versus non-construction 

21 workers.
81 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

2 DR. MAKHIJANI: But you'll see 

3 that in the memo I sent you.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

5 That will be good. We need to make sure -- if 

6 the Work Group or SC&A are not covered in 

7 other items, we need to address those 

8 separately, so that will be good to see a 

9 formal follow up on that.

10 Is there anything we missed just 

11 as far as the status updates, Arjun or Tim?

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: I don't think so.

13 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim. No, I 

14 don't think so. I think that covers it.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess the 

16 only thing I would draw attention -- this came 

17 up yesterday in our Fernald meeting. We did a 

18 similar thing. I know that at the last full 

19 Board meeting, we had heard some public 

20 comment of how many Work Group meetings we've 

21 had at the Savannah River Site and how long 
82 

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1 this has gone on. 

2 I know I'm not telling anyone 

3 anything they don't know already, but we do 

4 have petitioners that are, I'm sure, quite 

5 anxious to have resolution to this. So I 

6 think we really need to try to push for a 

7 face-to-face meeting to resolve many and/or 

8 all these issues in the near future. I'm a 

9 little concerned that some are definitely 

10 going to push out beyond the next February 

11 meeting it seems, but I do want to try to 

12 schedule something. And I'm not sure what 

13 time frame we should look at. I think we 

14 should go for a meeting before the next full 

15 Board meeting, possibly in mid- to late 

16 January with the awareness that some of these 

17 issues may not be ready by then. I don't know 

18 what others think on that?

19 DR. MAKHIJANI: Mark, the latter 

20 part of January and early part of February is 

21 going to be -- is very, very uncertain for me. 
83 

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1 I would prefer the first part of January, the 

2 latter part of February.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I would say --

4 how about middle January or early-to-mid? I 

5 don't think early is good.

6 DR. MAKHIJANI: Actually, January 

7 is a horrible month for me, but you know, 

8 because the second week of January is also 

9 booked. I have the first week of January. I 

10 could do it in the second week of January, 

11 third week of January starting the 18th.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you could do 

13 it the third week?

14 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. The problem 

15 is my schedule for the last half of January is 

16 uncertain, but I guess I'll work around the 

17 Working Group.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Tim, any 

19 thoughts on that from NIOSH's standpoint?

20 DR. TAULBEE: From my availability 

21 standpoint, the third week of January is good 
84 

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1 until Friday of that week, so Tuesday, 

2 Wednesday, Thursday of that week. Also, the 

3 first and second week of January is fine. I'm 

4 kind of like Arjun, the end of January and the 

5 first of February is already booked for me.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And from the --

7 I mean what I gather from our discussion, a 

8 lot of your actions will be complete by then. 

9 There might be a few exceptions, but a large 

10 degree of the work you expect to have 

11 responses on these issues, right, by then?

12 DR. TAULBEE: That's correct.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't want to 

14 schedule when we're not going to be ready to 

15 have some fruitful discussion.

16 DR. TAULBEE: From my list, Mark, 

17 it looks like the tritium analysis that we'd 

18 have, as well as Arjun would have SC&A's 

19 response of that so that can be a lengthy 

20 discussion, I'm quite certain, as well as we 

21 had the polonium report that will be out. The 
85 

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1 Burning Grounds should be out by then as well. 

2 And I'm hoping the exposure geometry as well, 

3 and these again, I'm targeting early January 

4 so if you were to schedule the 18th, 19th, or 

5 20th, the Work Group should have a few weeks 

6 to at least have read them and we can go over 

7 them and begin to address questions on them.

8 DR. MAKHIJANI: And you'll also 

9 have our thorium report and tritium report.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How about 

11 January 17th? Does that work?

12 DR. MAKHIJANI: That's Martin 

13 Luther King Day.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, it is. 

15 That's right. How about January 18th?

16 DR. TAULBEE: That works fine for 

17 me.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How about Work 

19 Group members? Is there anything else 

20 scheduled on that day, I should ask too?

21 MR. KATZ: January 18th is okay. 
86 

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1 It just means people will travel on Martin 

2 Luther King Day, but that's fine.

3 MEMBER LOCKEY: Mark, what day is 

4 that?

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's a Tuesday.

6 MEMBER LOCKEY: Tuesday isn't a 

7 good day for me because I have clinic.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How about 

9 January 20th?

10 MEMBER LOCKEY: That's a --

11 MR. KATZ: Thursday.

12 MEMBER LOCKEY: Hold on a second, 

13 let me check.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This will be in 

15 your backyard, Jim.

16 Is everybody else okay with that 

17 day?

18 DR. TAULBEE: The 20th works for 

19 me. This is Tim Taulbee.

20 MEMBER LOCKEY: The 20th is good.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's good. Is 
87 

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1 it still okay with you, Arjun?

2 DR. MAKHIJANI: Yes. It's pushing 

3 my envelope, but that's fine.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let's save the 

5 20th and I will check in in early January on 

6 the actions and if it looks like we're not 

7 there, we may push this back, but I really 

8 want to try to push on this because, as we 

9 know, it's been going on for a long time. 

10 Anything else, Ted?

11 MR. KATZ: No, that's good. Mark, 

12 that sounds good. I was just going to say it 

13 seems pretty clear from the amount of material 

14 that we have that's going to be delivered and 

15 then won't be delivered, but will be delivered 

16 soon. We're going to need certainly two full 

17 meetings anyway, so my only question is if you 

18 want to try to book a meeting now for after 

19 the February Board meeting or do you just want 

20 to wait and see where we get with that first 

21 meeting?
88 

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm having a 

2 little trouble booking that far out. I'm 

3 afraid to schedule something that later is a 

4 conflict. I'd like to just stick with that 

5 one.

6 The last thing I would like to say 

7 for our conference call here is I know the 

8 petitioner took time out of their day to dial 

9 in, so if you have any comments, understanding 

10 that this was sort of status call. There will 

11 be much more substance at the meeting to 

12 discuss. If you have any comments for the 

13 record now, I would give you the opportunity 

14 to make those, either Mr. Warren or Mr. 

15 Anderson.

16 MR. WARREN: This is Bob Warren. 

17 We still are looking at -- we'd like to see 

18 the definitions of construction worker because 

19 this is really important. If it's only done 

20 for construction workers who work in the 

21 subcontractors in the trade, or whether it was 
89 

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1 done, classify the workers in the front who 

2 are doing construction. So that would be 

3 helpful if somebody would give us how they're 

4 going to do that.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's a good 

6 point: clarification of how NIOSH is defining 

7 construction work.

8 Tim, I think this is better 

9 addressed when we start to talk about the 

10 construction work that follows, right?

11 DR. TAULBEE: This is Tim Taulbee, 

12 you're really breaking up there, Mark, due to 

13 other interference. Could you repeat that, 

14 please?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I was saying 

16 that the point is an important one, I think, 

17 the definition of construction workers, but I 

18 think you might want to address that when we 

19 discuss coworker models and whether they bound 

20 construction workers. I think Mr. Warren is 

21 asking about how it's defined, whether it's 
90 

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1 subcontractors or whether it's -- is it 

2 getting into those -- is it DuPont, the DuPont 

3 workers as well?

4 DR. TAULBEE: I concur. I think 

5 our analysis paper, as well as the tritium 

6 analysis paper will help address that and we 

7 can certainly go into more details on that 

8 particular issue when we discuss that in 

9 January. But it does include, it's not just 

10 the construction trades or, what do I want to 

11 say, the construction trades coming out of the 

12 union shops. We also included the DuPont 

13 construction trades workers that would be 

14 doing more maintenance and so forth.

15 Back in August, we've since --

16 I've posted up on the Advisory Board's 

17 directory under our -- I think it's your O: 

18 drive, a description of the -- of who we 

19 included in those construction trades. I'm 

20 looking at it here as I'm speaking here to 

21 make sure that it did get posted up there. 
91 

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1 But do you remember seeing anything like that, 

2 Mark?

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You know, I may 

4 have seen it, but is it on -- you're saying 

5 it's on the publicly accessible?

6 DR. TAULBEE: No, not the publicly 

7 assessable one. This would be the one 

8 internal for you and the Advisory Board DCAS 

9 documents, and it's the tritium description, 

10 the description of the tritium files.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I do remember 

12 asking for this and I'm sure I looked at it a 

13 while ago, but I'll look at it again. I'll 

14 need to look at it again.

15 DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is there any 

17 portion of that that -- or will that -- this 

18 report that you're going to provide for the 

19 Work Group for the next face-to-face meeting, 

20 that, I assume, will be cleared for the public 

21 and the petitioner will be able to see that 
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1 and see these definitions better? Is that 

2 true or not?

3 DR. TAULBEE: It's currently not 

4 true, but we could possibly add these job 

5 titles to that as an appendix. We've got them 

6 listed there and we can certainly add an 

7 appendix to the report. It's not quite 

8 finalized yet, but I will caution you that 

9 this report is rather lengthy. The text 

10 version of it is about 22 pages or so, but 

11 when you add in all of the additional data and 

12 analysis that was done, it balloons to about 

13 350 pages. So it's a pretty big document.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If you think 

15 the description is clear without adding 

16 another appendix with exact job titles, then 

17 that's fine. I'll leave it up to your 

18 judgment, but you understand the concern.

19 DR. TAULBEE: Yes, sir.

20 MR. KATZ: This is Ted. Isn't 

21 there a way to just provide this information 
93 

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1 more simply to Mr. Warren? Does it really 

2 have to be integrated into some larger report? 

3 It seems like a relatively straightforward 

4 question.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Tim, I guess --

6 MR. KATZ: I'm not asking you --

7 DR. TAULBEE: You're asking me. I 

8 don't know. Perhaps we could. I just hadn't 

9 -- I don't know.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If that's 

11 possible, that might be good, too. That's a 

12 specific question that I think needs to be 

13 understood and transparent. I think everybody 

14 needs to know how that is being defined and 

15 some assurance that the workers, that they're 

16 concerned about in the original petition, how 

17 they're being handled.

18 DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: At least 

20 consider that and see if you can respond in a 

21 separate response, maybe directly to that 
94 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 issue and then it wouldn't bring the other 

2 report size up to 300 pages or whatever.

3 DR. TAULBEE: Okay.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anything else 

5 for Mr. Warren or Mr. Henderson.

6 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Can any of 

7 the public be allowed to speak?

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, yes.

9 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: I'd like to 

10 speak up concerning many matters that have 

11 been spoken here today.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can you just 

13 give your name?

14 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Quite 

15 frankly, I've been working for these cases for 

16 the last ten years. We have claimants who 

17 have been waiting for awardments for ten 

18 years, walking around with cancer in their 

19 body --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can I just -- 

21 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: I want to go 
95 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 ahead and just explain some things here. 

2 You're talking about incidents. You're talking 

3 about you don't have clarifications of the 

4 elements. Basically, the amounts the geometry 

5 of those elements and how those are workable. 

6 Concerning your IMBA software, I am concerned 

7 that many people, claimants, those who worked 

8 in the line of duty from the 1950s on up have 

9 actually not had fair or fairness in all of 

10 their cases due to the fact that we look at 

11 these from the epidemiology side. We look at 

12 them from the geometry side. We look at them 

13 from the elements to the tissues to the 

14 disease. We look at them from the toxins that 

15 causes the individuals under the Worker's 

16 Compensation law and yet many of these 

17 claimants have been waiting ten years or 

18 longer. 

19 And here you're discussing that 

20 you don't even have the variables. You don't 

21 actually have the findings of exotic nuclides 
96 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 which you're talking about. You don't have 

2 the findings concerning many of the elements 

3 that should be completed probably years ago 

4 from Savannah River Site and I have their 

5 bible which I call the site bible, it's the 

6 Site Technical Document. I have every piece 

7 of law. I have over, I would imagine, 600 

8 TIBs and PERs and every day there's a change 

9 in this and a change in that. And there's a 

10 conference here. And there's a conference 

11 there. 

12 But the claimants sit back and 

13 they receive nothing but denial, denial, 

14 denial, denial. These people, some of them 

15 have been hit with plutonium, uranium, 

16 celsium, cesium, californium. I know every 

17 element. I can go through the book and tell 

18 you these people have been hit. They have 

19 received these diseases from their employment, 

20 yet they sit back and they have to wait and 

21 wait for you all to hold these type of 
97 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 conferences which I've been to many, 

2 especially in Augusta. And concerning the 

3 fact that these exposures to these claimants 

4 were actually in those dosimetry records when 

5 I calculate when you do your dosimetry 

6 records, I go back in behind and then I go 

7 back on the individual records of those 

8 claimants and to the Site Technical Document 

9 and through all of the PERS, TIBs, you name 

10 it, I go through all of these things. And the 

11 correlation between the two normally comes up 

12 what I have which would be way above the 

13 contamination levels of what you give the 

14 claimant.

15 Because of ALARA and because of 

16 IMBA, and so you take a scenario of someone 

17 being hit with certain parameters, you are 

18 able to lower the rate of radiation 

19 contamination that the individuals receive and 

20 so to get to a 50 percent causation is almost 

21 an impossibility. And then under Worker's 
98 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 Compensation of the SBM which has all the 

2 toxic substances that the individual was hit 

3 with that would produce a disease for 

4 awardment, it doesn't make a difference what 

5 you turn over to you all in any form or 

6 fashion. The ball game gets changed. Every 

7 time you think you have won the ball game, a 

8 curve ball is thrown your way under a TIB or a 

9 PER under the S plutonium ruling and the same 

10 thing. Many of them were upped on the S 

11 plutonium ruling and many of them were lowered 

12 under the S plutonium ruling.

13 So it's a catch-22 and the 

14 claimants are dying. Their families are 

15 watching them die and here we sit talking on 

16 the phone, a bunch of jargon, God forgive me, 

17 but it is jargon, because you sit here and the 

18 money that's paying your salaries to me should 

19 be going to the claimants.

20 So that's what I wanted to say 

21 today. I have many people, many people who 
99 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 have worked with me and we have gone through 

2 these things with fine-toothed combs and it's 

3 as if whatever we find, no matter how you 

4 document it, down to the letter of the law 

5 with the Is and the Ts crossed, it comes to no 

6 fruition for the claimants. Denial, denial, 

7 denial.

8 And so I think you really need to 

9 look into what you are doing here at these 

10 conferences and how you all are putting this 

11 out to the public because there are public 

12 people, there are people on these lines 

13 listening and to me to sit here and say well, 

14 you really don't know about this and you 

15 really don't know about that, well, then the 

16 dose reconstructions could not actually be 

17 valid dose reconstructions. If you do not 

18 have concerning the tritium, the plutonium, 

19 the celsium, the cesium, the californium, you 

20 don't have actual data for certain years, 

21 coworker under trade workers, non-trade 
100 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 workers, whatever, then no dose reconstruction 

2 can actually be a valid dose reconstruction.

3 I just wanted to make those 

4 comments and I can tell you right now I am for 

5 the claimants. They are literally sitting in 

6 denial many of them. Every time something is 

7 returned, it is a denial, a denial, a denial. 

8 I don't care. I've had people that have 

9 actually had plutonium in a building so 

10 contaminated that they know exactly how they 

11 got hit -- incident. Little Hector. 

12 Everybody knows about Little Hector. You all 

13 may not know about Little Hector, but we all 

14 know about Little Hector, and so there's 

15 things there that perhaps you all don't know 

16 that we know and that claimants know. And 

17 many of these old, 80-year-old widows, they 

18 are terrified to even speak about what 

19 happened on the Site to their husbands who 

20 didn't come home for two or three days and 

21 then when they did send them home, they came 
101 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 home in such a way that some of them actually 

2 didn't live very long afterwards. They won't 

3 even hardly talk because they were afraid who 

4 was going to come to their front door. 

5 It's a very sad thing to have 

6 someone in that type of mindset this many 

7 years after their husbands worked at Savannah 

8 River Site. But I'm quite telling you today, 

9 to sit here and hear you all say this and that 

10 about your databases and your geometry and I 

11 do your chemistry and I do your geometry and I 

12 go through the epidemiology. I go through 

13 NIOSH and DOE and DOL and cases being lost and 

14 things of that nature. There's so much that 

15 actually you all need to look into -- that I 

16 believe the claimants have a right to take 

17 their hearts before Congress and let them know 

18 what is going on because I have just numerous, 

19 numerous people who say this is unfair. Maybe 

20 this was to create jobs. This wasn't for the 

21 claimants, because the claimants aren't 
102 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 getting the money. I can quite frankly tell 

2 you that.

3 The claimants are not being 

4 reparated. They're getting denial, denial, 

5 denial. And when I see their dose 

6 reconstructions, I know exactly what they're 

7 hit with. When you put them in IMBA, it's 

8 quite different when you put a dose 

9 reconstruction through IMBA, believe me.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

11 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: I just wanted 

12 to make my comments. Thank you very much.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you, and 

14 I appreciate and I do appreciate your 

15 frustration and all the claimants waiting on 

16 this. We have raised this a couple of times 

17 of the timeliness, but we also --

18 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Well, many of 

19 the claimants have waited ten years. First 

20 filers who should not be actually -- they 

21 should be grandfathered back to what the 
103 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 original -- under the CFR 81 and 82 and the 

2 CFR 30, Worker's Compensation. All of these 

3 things that you look at them and when the 

4 claimants came in, they came in with knowledge 

5 of knowing there would be reparations for them 

6 because they would receive a disease or had a 

7 disease, cancer, in the line of duty which 

8 would have to come up to a 50 percent 

9 causation which the burden of proof was put 

10 back on the claimants to bring that -- to be 

11 able. They had to do all of it. They had to 

12 get medical records. They had to do 

13 everything. The very knowledge of them having 

14 to do this, someone with cancer going back and 

15 having to get all of this from their 

16 physicians, their doctors.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We do 

18 appreciate your comment.

19 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: I'm sure you 

20 do.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It is a 
104 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 complicated matter, but --

2 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: No, it 

3 shouldn't be complicated. It is actually A, 

4 B, C, D. It is the work area to the element, 

5 actually the tissue to the disease to the 

6 reparation. It's a very simple A, B, C, D, E.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

8 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: It's not as 

9 hard as you all are making it. You're making 

10 it where the claimant cannot receive their 

11 awardment because when you change amount on an 

12 element that maybe in 1954 might have been 4.7 

13 when you were hit with plutonium and then 

14 later down the road you can change that to 

15 maybe 1.5 on a dose reconstruction, then that 

16 claimant can never get to 50 percent 

17 causation.

18 There is a lowering amount of 

19 those elements where you can't get there. 

20 I'll take the scenario, a woman, both of her 

21 breasts removed, had a 47.17 percent by S 
105 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 plutonium. The woman comes back and loses at 

2 47.01 percent. Both breasts have been 

3 removed. Cancer. Been there since the 

4 inception of the plant from the '50s. Been in 

5 every building. Been in every reactor. Been 

6 contaminated to the limit. No reparation. 

7 Denial.

8 This is what I'm saying, sir, 

9 these claimants need to take this before 

10 Congress. They need to be made aware of what 

11 is going on. Congress needs to be made aware 

12 that these claimants are suffering. They are 

13 dying and they are not receiving money. 

14 And I think this is what they 

15 should do. They should take it up with the 

16 Congress or a federal court because under the 

17 present system, they get lost. The cases get 

18 lost. The claimants' cases can't be found. 

19 Or you get the wrong case, so, sir, there's 

20 many things here that need to be looked into 

21 and maybe you need to get a team that will 
106 

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 actually go in and research why hasn't 

2 Savannah River plant claimants -- it has been 

3 put in for a special cohort facility, that has 

4 been denied. That petition has been in for 

5 quite some time. In fact, two petitions and 

6 people have been waiting and waiting and 

7 waiting and they're dying. They're dying.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I appreciate 

9 the --

10 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: You all need 

11 to look into your all's heart as you sit here 

12 and say well, my date, the 17th, is not a good 

13 date for me. And my date of February 15th 

14 isn't a good day for me. Well, guess what? A 

15 denial in a letter is not a good date for 

16 anybody and everybody is getting their 

17 denials. Denials.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I appreciate 

19 your comments.

20 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Now I think 

21 you have to look into your hearts and go back 
107 

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1 to the Board --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We are going 

3 back to the Board and we will discuss 

4 timeliness.

5 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Ten years, 

6 sir --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Very, very 

8 concerned.

9 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: -- is a lot 

10 of time for people to wait to first filers. 

11 These are first filers, sir, ten years.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I 

13 understand.

14 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Ten years.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I understand.

16 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Hearing after 

17 hearing after hearing.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Listen, we will 

19 be in Augusta again in February.

20 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: I shall be 

21 there, sir.
108 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And we hope to 

2 see you there.

3 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: I will be 

4 there. I will be there.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We hope to have 

6 more answers on Savannah River by then as 

7 well. I appreciate --

8 PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: I don't think 

9 you'll have the answers, sir. I think you'll 

10 get more jargon out like you are right now, 

11 sir. So, have a wonderful day. 

12 COURT REPORTER: This is the court 

13 reporter. Could the last speaker please 

14 identify herself?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I didn't catch 

16 her name either.

17 MR. KATZ: That's okay. That's 

18 voluntary on her part. She's not required to 

19 identify herself.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. Any 

21 other comments, otherwise, we'll adjourn this 
109 

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 Work Group meeting? 

2 Okay, hearing none, Ted, I think 

3 we're ready to adjourn.

4 MR. KATZ: Okay, we are adjourned. 

5 Thank you, everybody.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

7 matter went off the record at 3:11 p.m.)

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17