1 

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

LINDE CERAMICS WORK GROUP

+ + + + +

MONDAY

OCTOBER 24, 2011

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened via 

teleconference at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Daylight 

Time, Genevieve Roessler, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

GENEVIEVE S. ROESSLER, Chairman

JOSIE BEACH, Member

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member

JAMES E. LOCKEY, Member
2 

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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

ANTOINETTE BONSIGNORE, Petitioner

NICOLE BRIGGS, SC&A

CHRISTOPHER CRAWFORD, DCAS

JASON DAVIS, ORAU Team

JENNY LIN, HHS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

JAMES NETON, DCAS

STEVEN OSTROW, SC&A

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU Team

JOHN STIVER, SC&A
3 

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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Welcome and roll-call/introduction......... 4 

NIOSH Brief Summary of the SEC Petition 

#154(1947-1953)ER.......................... 5 

Summary of August 15, 2011 WG Meeting: 

Discussion of new information arising from 

NIOSH summary............................. 10

Discussion of Action Item on Utility Tunnels 

(August 15, 2011 WG meeting).............. 19

Petitioner Questions/Comments............. 27

Plans for Presentation to Advisory Board at 

Tampa December 2011 Meeting............... 29

Adjournment............................... 45
4 

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 1:02 p.m.

3 MR. KATZ: This is the Advisory 

4 Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Linde 

5 Work Group, and please speak to conflict of 

6 interest since we are dealing with a site, 

7 starting with the Chair.

8 (Roll call.)

9 MR. KATZ: Okay, well, so it's 

10 your agenda. The agenda by the way for people 

11 on the line is also posted on the NIOSH 

12 website under the Board section.

13 And Gen, it's yours. Let me just 

14 remind everyone on the line to mute your 

15 phones except when you are speaking. If you 

16 don't have a mute button, please use *6, *6 

17 again, will unmute your phone. Thank you.

18 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay thank you, 

19 Ted. I sent out a rather detailed agenda 

20 which may or may not be pertinent after we 
5 

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1 hear the first item. The first item on the 

2 agenda I had asked for NIOSH DCAS to present a 

3 brief summary of the ER for this SEC period.

4 I understand from information I 

5 got this morning that there is some new 

6 information from NIOSH, so I think what we 

7 ought to do is start out with Jim Neton and 

8 Chris Crawford bringing us up to date on this 

9 new information and then we may have to all be 

10 flexible and decide where to go from there.

11 DR. NETON: Okay. Thanks, Gen, 

12 this is Jim Neton. I guess I'll kick things 

13 off here. If you remember our SEC Petition 

14 Evaluation Report for petition number 154 was 

issued on November 2nd 15 , 2010, and that 

16 petition was for all employees who worked in 

any area of Linde Ceramics from November 1st 17 , 

1947, through December 31st 18 , 1953.

19 Our position at the time that the 

20 report was written until very recently was 
6 

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1 that we could do dose reconstructions for all 

2 workers for all exposure pathways at Linde 

3 during that time period.

4 At the last Working Group meeting 

5 that was held at the airport Marriott, SC&A 

6 brought up some issues that had heretofore not 

7 been -- come to the surface before, and that 

8 was -- it was related to the progeny ratios 

9 that were applied to workers during the 1947-

10 53 period.

11 That is, we maintained that 

12 exposure to uranium was primarily to pure 

13 uranium after 1947, and that we would apply 

14 these ratios that were measured either at 

15 FUSRAP studies or other studies that were more 

16 contemporaneous, more recent, to those values 

17 to bound exposures.

18 And in taking a very, very 

19 detailed look at all of the information, and 

20 there is a lot of information out there on our 
7 

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1 Site Research Database and I personally went 

2 through much of this on my own, it's come to 

3 light that we don't believe our ability to 

4 bound dose reconstructions is as good as we 

5 thought, and here's why.

6 In the -- at the end of 1947, and 

7 virtually most of 1948, and Chris can correct 

8 me if I am a little bit off base here, but 

9 during that time period, there were two 

10 activities ongoing simultaneously.

11 One was the production of uranium 

12 starting with purified material in Building 

13 38, and that of course would only expose the 

14 workers to uranium.

15 And we in fact decided that we 

16 have bioassay data during that period, 

17 somewhere in the order of six to seven hundred 

18 bioassay samples were collected between 1947 

19 and '50, and that those would indeed bound 

20 worker exposures in Building 38.
8 

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1 But what we have here also is a 

2 cleanup activity going on in Building 30, 

3 which you will remember was a Step-1 process 

4 that started with uranium ore that contained a 

5 lot of the -- much of the long-lived progeny.

6 During that cleanup activity, in 

7 reviewing the records, it became clear that 

8 much of the cleanup was done by a 

9 subcontractor, H.K. Ferguson, and it 

10 specifically called out in their work 

11 activities that they were responsible for 

12 their own worker monitoring program.

13 Is that right Chris?

14 MR. CRAWFORD: That is correct.

15 DR. NETON: And so it's pretty 

16 clear to us at this point that the bioassay 

17 samples that we have covering 1947-50 do not 

18 cover cleanup activities that occurred in 

19 Building 30.

20 So the end of '47 and 1948, we 
9 

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1 don't believe we can reconstruct. There's 

2 also the complication that they were cleaning 

3 out Building 30, which had a lot of the long4 lived progeny in there, and particularly maybe 

5 some hold-up materials, at which point we are 

6 not convinced that the raffinate ratios that 

7 we were applying might necessarily be bounding 

8 in all cases.

9 So through '48, we can't 

10 reconstruct doses. And now let's examine '49 

11 through '53. Well, it turns out that the 

12 bioassay data only goes through 1950. We have 

13 bioassay from 1947 to '50.

14 And I believe that production of 

15 uranium stopped somewhere in the middle of 

16 '49. Right. So you have this extended period 

17 of time where there large amounts of 

18 contamination in Building 38, uncleaned-up, 

19 however we do know that they were eventually 

20 cleaned because the FUSRAP surveys later on 
10

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1 showed evidence of contamination, but not 

2 contamination consistent with a facility that 

3 had just been shut down and moth-balled.

4 So during that entire period we 

5 really don't have any bioassay data to hang 

6 our hat on. So at this point, we believe we 

7 are going to move forward and revise the 

8 Evaluation Report to indicate that we can't do 

9 dose reconstructions between 1947 and 1953 

10 because we cannot bound internal exposures to 

11 uranium and progeny during that period with 

12 sufficient accuracy, right.

13 So that's our position and I know 

14 it's quite a reversal, but we've combed 

15 through this data quite meticulously in the 

16 last, you know, six weeks or so and this is 

17 where we have ended up.

18 MEMBER BEACH: Jim, this is Josie. 

19 Do you plan on doing that in an 83.14?

20 DR. NETON: No. I talked to our 
11

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1 counsel about this and since the Board has not 

2 taken any action on our original Evaluation 

3 Report, then we can modify the Evaluation 

4 Report to indicate our current position and we 

5 will re-present that to the Board. 

6 It is our hope to have that ready 

7 in time for the December meeting in Tampa. I 

8 hope we can meet that goal.

9 CHAIR ROESSLER: Jim, this is Gen. 

10 This is all pretty new.

11 DR. NETON: Yes.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: And I think 

13 there's a lot that has to be evaluated to 

14 understand this. For one, on your first item, 

15 I'm not clear just on your brief discussion, 

16 why the bioassay samples don't cover Building 

17 30.

18 As I remember in your ER and in 

19 SC&A's evaluation of it, you felt that those 

20 bioassay samples which were from Step-3, or 
12

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1 from workers in Building 38, were maximizing, 

2 and I can't understand what it is now that is 

3 different.

4 DR. NETON: Well, they are 

5 maximizing for workers in Building 38 that 

6 were working with purified uranium, but these 

7 were ongoing D&D activities in Building 30 

8 that did not -- it appears to us did not 

9 include -- those bioassay samples did not 

10 include workers from Building 30 in the 

11 sampling.

12 I mean, we have a very detailed 

13 listing of all the samples and actually the 

14 job titles of all the workers, and we see no 

15 evidence that these H.K. Ferguson 

16 subcontractors were monitored, or were covered 

17 by those bioassay samples.

18 They may indeed have been sampled 

19 but we don't have the data. And also the fact 

20 that the type of holdup material that might 
13

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1 have been in there, you sort of run into a 

2 situation like you had at Mallinckrodt, where 

3 there was various steps in the process.

4 Now I don't think it was 

5 chemically equivalent to Mallinckrodt, but at 

6 some point you are going to have separated 

7 precipitation of raffinate material that is in 

8 disequilibrium with the uranium parent.

9 And if you have taken out -- this 

10 is exactly what happened at Mallinckrodt -- if 

11 you take out the uranium parent by chemical 

12 separation, now you have this raffinate 

13 material that people could have been D&D, you 

14 know, doing a decontamination and 

15 decommissioning activity on, there's really 

16 almost little, very little exposure to 

17 uranium.

18 So, we just don't know.

19 CHAIR ROESSLER: So if I 

20 understand what you are saying correctly, what 
14

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1 you have now, it seems, is more information on 

2 the activities in Building 30 that then 

3 question your method for bounding.

4 DR. NETON: Right, well we have a 

5 lot more information on what was not -- what 

6 our bioassay samples represent, and it's 

7 pretty clear in our mind they do not represent 

8 workers who were in Building 30, and you are 

9 right, the additional thinking now is that 

10 since they were removing major pieces of 

11 equipment during this time period, one cannot 

12 assume that the ratios that were measured 

13 environmentally would reflect what the 

14 exposures of the workers were to the long15 lived progeny.

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: So what I assume 

17 you would be changing in your ER is to say you 

18 can't do dose reconstruction based on not 

19 being able to do internal doses for all 

20 workers. Does that kind of sum it up?
15

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1 DR. NETON: Well, it could be 

2 internal exposures to uranium and progeny from 

3 the operations and the D&D. That's correct. 

4 There would still be other exposures we would 

5 reconstruct for those with nonpresumptive 

6 cancers and less than 250 days in the Class.

7 And those we would leave intact as 

8 we have outlined in our Site Profile.

9 DR. MAURO: Jim, this is John 

10 Mauro. I have got a quick question related to 

11 the ratios. It was our understanding that 

12 those ratios that were obtained from 

13 information collected from sumps and 

14 elsewhere, much later on, you felt -- whereby 

15 you had a ratio of uranium to radium and 

16 thorium, and the number, if I remember, you 

17 recommended was something like 0.26, of that 

18 order.

19 I guess notwithstanding the 

20 challenge you have of course in front of you 
16

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1 now regarding uranium -- I understand the 

2 uranium problem now -- but the ratio seems to 

3 still be valid.

4 The problem now is the reverse. 

5 You don't know what the uranium intake is. 

6 Would that be a true statement, or do you feel 

7 that even the ratios -- see we basically felt 

8 that that strategy that you have adopted, 

9 namely if you know the intake of uranium from 

10 '47 to '53 based on bioassay data, and now we 

11 understand that you really don't, but if you 

12 did, and then you were concerned that along 

13 with that uranium, there might have been some 

14 thorium-230 and radium-226 coming in because 

15 it was residual from the operations period 

16 before '47, that -- and that you could take

17 advantage of the residue analyses that was 

18 done much later, we found that to be a 

19 reasonable strategy of a way to prorate.

20 But I am hearing that even that 
17

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1 ratio approach, you are not comfortable with.

2 DR. NETON: John, I think I was 

3 fairly comfortable with the radium-226 and the 

4 thorium-230. At worst case, you could say 

5 that they were in equilibrium as they came 

6 into the plant.

7 What really gave me some pause was 

8 the actinium-227 and protactinium-231 values.

9 DR. MAURO: Oh, okay.

10 DR. NETON: Because those, as you 

11 know, those are in the U-235 decay chain.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes.

13 DR. NETON: And they were much 

14 more enhanced than you know, you would expect. 

15 But if you go back and look at some of the 

16 reports, even the FUSRAP report talks about 

17 the disequilibrium created in the 

18 chemical-separation process.

19 So imagine now that you are in the 

20 plant and your job is to remove all of the 
18

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1 equipment including all the holdup material, 

2 there could have been situations in the plant 

3 where these filter presses or these leads 

4 machines that would actually take the 

5 precipitate and remove it, would have 

6 essentially that purified material with very 

7 little uranium that was removed.

8 So some workers could have been 

9 exposed to that and we just don't know how and 

10 how much.

11 DR. MAURO: Okay, so really you 

12 have a two-pronged problem. One is uranium in 

13 bioassay data itself is not representative of 

14 Building 30, and the ratios that were measured 

15 in the sumps and elsewhere during the FUSRAP 

16 program, you're not too comfortable with any 

17 longer because of the reasons you just 

18 described.

19 So these are the two things that 

20 really put you in a difficult spot.
19

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1 DR. NETON: Right. At the end of 

2 the day, we couldn't reconcile those pieces of 

3 information and convince ourselves that this

4 was sufficiently accurate.

5 DR. MAURO: Okay.

6 DR. NETON: And this will all be 

7 written up in our revision to the Evaluation 

8 Report for everyone to review again and to, 

9 you know, give you a chance to look at the 

10 logic and rationale behind it. 

11 But I just thought I would start 

12 with that because this is obviously a very 

13 significant departure from the past.

14 CHAIR ROESSLER: It certainly is 

15 and I think it makes the rest of our agenda 

16 really not even pertinent at this point. We 

17 had a lot of tunnel discussion and other 

18 things but if what you are saying now holds 

19 up, and the Board agrees, then nothing else is 

20 pertinent. I guess --
20

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1 DR. NETON: Well, Gen, I would say 

2 eventually they will become Site Profile 

3 issues because again, we will have to, you 

4 know, we will have to demonstrate that you 

5 know, we can do the nonpresumptive cancers 

6 with sufficient accuracy with those other, you 

7 know, those other pieces of exposure that we 

8 are saying that we can't reconstruct.

9 CHAIR ROESSLER: I had actually 

10 seen those as more Site Profile issues anyway.

11 DR. NETON: Right.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: I'm trying to 

13 think now what is the most efficient way to go 

14 about this. Perhaps what we should do first of 

15 all is -- I have some suggestions -- but ask 

16 for questions from other Work Group members or 

17 comments from Steve Ostrow or anybody else who 

18 is involved in this.

19 MEMBER BEACH: Gen, this is Josie. 

20 I am going to bring this tunnel issue up only 
21

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1 because I think there's a real disagreement 

2 between when those tunnels were built, and I 

3 realize with what workers would be covered, it 

4 may not be pertinent, but there is a radon 

5 issue in the tunnels, and I think it's 

6 important to establish the dates of those 

7 tunnels.

8 Based on what I have read with the 

9 workers' testimonies, I believe those tunnels 

10 were in existence. So I am just kind of 

11 curious if there is going to be some closure 

12 there.

13 DR. OSTROW: Josie, this is Steve 

14 Ostrow. Our position, SC&A=s position on the 

15 tunnels is that we reviewed everything that 

16 NIOSH supplied, reviewed everything that 

17 Antoinette Bonsignore supplied, various 

18 things, and we really can't -- we think that 

19 there is no definitive answer when the tunnels 

20 were built. We are not convinced when they 
22

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1 were built.

2 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, I did read 

3 both your reports and understand that.

4 DR. OSTROW: And also, Antoinette 

5 sent more stuff last Friday which didn't 

6 appear in any of our reports yet because it 

7 just came out on Friday afternoon.

8 MEMBER BEACH: Right.

9 DR. OSTROW: And with the 

10 additional information, Antoinette's argument 

11 makes a compelling case in that, just by --

12 logically whenever you build a building, you 

13 have to connect it to the utilities, which 

14 means you have to connect it to electric, 

15 steam, water, so forth, so logically you would 

16 think that they would build a tunnel or extend 

17 a tunnel whenever they built a new building. 

18 That just makes sense.

19 However, we don't have documented 

20 evidence to say that they actually built a 
23

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1 tunnel so while logically there should been 

2 tunnels, we don't have real documentation for 

3 it, and the documentation we do have, doesn't 

4 -- they said when tunnels existed at different 

5 times, but they don't really say either 

6 exactly when they were built.

7 So our conclusion is that there is 

8 really insufficient hard evidence to say when 

9 the tunnels were built, and that a, I guess 

10 claimant-favorable, conservative assumption 

11 would just be assuming the tunnels were there 

12 all the time.

13 MEMBER BEACH: Absolutely.

14 DR. MAURO: Steve, can I add 

15 something too that might be of interest, and 

16 Josie too on this matter? Sort of a light 

17 went on while we were working the problem, and 

18 I said to myself, you know, if you build a 

19 building, you are going to have a basement 

20 for, even if you don't have tunnels, you are 
24

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1 going to have a basement where you do have 

2 your utility equipment.

3 Maybe they didn't connect up or 

4 maybe they did to the other facilities through 

5 these utility tunnels, but you are going to 

6 have a basement.

7 Now, if you have a basement, you 

8 still have the radon problem in the basement, 

9 notwithstanding whether there are tunnels 

10 connecting the basement.

11 So this may be an over12 simplification and I would be very interested 

13 in hearing any comments others have but it's 

14 one of these things where the light just went 

15 on and we said well wait a minute, maybe the 

16 tunnels aren't even relevant.

17 It's kind of crazy to say this, 

18 but the most important thing is, is there a 

19 basement, and did people spend a lot of time 

20 in the basements maintaining equipment, 
25

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1 whether or not there was tunnels connecting 

2 the basements of various buildings, if you see 

3 how I am thinking about this.

4 So I think that's another -- well 

5 even if it's a question that says that well, 

6 you know, what Steve said, certainly, but in 

7 addition, there's still the issue that people 

8 might very well have been working in basements 

9 beneath these buildings where there might have 

10 been radon issues.

11 DR. NETON: That is interesting, 

12 John, but if we are adding the entire site 

13 over all times now, you end up with all the 

14 lung cancers being, well, with 250 --

15 DR. MAURO: Anyway --

16 DR. NETON: -- being compensated -

17 - 

18 DR. MAURO: Anyway, that's right.

19 DR. NETON: And the amount of 

20 radon of course would contribute small amounts 
26

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1 of dose to the other organs, but it's pretty 

2 small. I mean I don't know that it would ever 

3 get to the point where it would move somebody 

4 into the compensable range.

5 DR. MAURO: Right. Yes, I 

6 realized that too when I was thinking about 

7 it, I said, if you do go with, you know, 

8 granting SEC status for all compensable 

9 cancers, and since the radon dose is primarily 

10 a respiratory-tract dose by far --

11 DR. NETON: It would have to mean 

12 we wouldn't include it, I mean --

13 DR. MAURO: Yes, right. It's 

14 almost a moot point.

15 DR. NETON: Yes, for anything --

16 for small levels of radon concentration, the 

17 dose to the other organs is way, way small.

18 DR. MAURO: Right.

19 DR. NETON: Much less than a 

20 millirem. But I would suggest that you know, 
27

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1 we would like to move the SEC process forward 

2 with our Evaluation Report, and that these 

3 other issues would certainly be worth 

4 considering at the Working Group level. I mean 

5 we are not saying the door is closed on all 

6 those, but you can take the Evaluation Report 

7 and read it as it comes out, and then we can 

8 you know, the Working Group can address the 

9 other issues of exposure that we are 

10 reconstructing and take them up at that time.

11 I don't know that we need to solve 

12 all those issues in order to move this SEC 

13 forward.

14 CHAIR ROESSLER: This is Gen. If 

15 -- from what I am hearing, the DCAS argument

16 is pretty persuasive, I think that we as a 

17 Work Group, and that certainly the Board 

18 members and SC&A really need to look at the 

19 details and evaluate everything.

20 I know I want to re-look at 
28

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1 everything. But it seems like our next step 

2 in order to be efficient on this should be to 

3 take the new ER and evaluate that first and 

4 then decide where to go.

5 I don't know Josie --

6 MEMBER BEACH: No, I agree with 

7 you Gen, perfectly. Yes.

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: I don't know, 

9 Jim, what you=re thinking, or what anybody 

10 else would recommend on this. To me it would 

11 seem like it's not only the Work Group who 

12 needs to look at this, but the new -- the 

13 revised ER -- sorry for my voice here but --

14 also perhaps SC&A, as this is really a total -

15 - a total new approach, and I guess I'd like 

16 to hear what Antoinette thinks about this 

17 approach also.

18 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well, can 

19 everyone hear me?

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes.
29

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1 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. I am 

2 always wondering if I am still on mute. I am 

3 a little sort of shocked right now, so I am 

4 trying to get my bearings.

5 I was -- on the issue of when to 

6 proceed with the presentation of the revised 

7 ER to the Board, are we still planning that to 

be for the December 15th 8 meeting?

9 CHAIR ROESSLER: I think what we 

10 need to know now from NIOSH is when they think 

11 they can get us a revision, and whether they 

12 think we will have sufficient time to take a 

13 look at it.

14 DR. NETON: Yes, this is Jim. We 

15 believe that we can get a draft out far enough 

in advance of the December -- I think it's 7th 16 

17 meeting.

18 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay, I thought 

it was the 15th 19 . I'm sorry.

 DR. NETON: I think it's the 7th 20 . 
30

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1 I might be wrong.

2 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes, I think so.

3 DR. NETON: But anyway, I think 

4 that it's not -- it wouldn't represent that 

5 big of a change in the body of the report 

6 because most of the -- most of the dose 

7 reconstruction methods we outlined stand.

8 It's just the pieces for the 

9 internal exposure for uranium and progeny that 

10 would need to be changed. So yes, I don't 

11 have to write it so I can promise a lot.

12 No, I've been told it should be 

13 available in advance of the meeting, no 

14 problem.

15 DR. MAURO: Gen, this is John. 

16 Just from past experience in working with SEC 

17 reviews, I can say that in general, when NIOSH 

18 recommended an SEC, I don't recall any time 

19 that the Board came to SC&A to question 

20 whether that SEC should be granted.
31

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1 The Board has come to SC&A with 

2 respect to the degree to which the SEC covered 

3 the appropriate time periods, and whether or 

4 not the portions that NIOSH claims they can 

5 reconstruct for a partial dose reconstruction.

6 But I do not recall an occasion 

7 where SC&A was brought in to see whether we 

8 agree that an SEC should be granted, when 

9 NIOSH is recommending an SEC for a particular 

10 time period and for particular exposure 

11 scenarios.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes, John, I 

13 think you are right on that. So I'd -- I 

14 don't know -- Jim Lockey, what is your thought 

15 on this?

16 MEMBER LOCKEY: Well, I am in 

17 agreement. I'd like to look at all the data, 

18 but I think before the -- maybe before the

19 Tampa meeting we can have a brief phone call 

20 among the Working Group to finalize our 
32

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1 position and then make a presentation in 

2 Tampa.

3 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes, I think -- I 

4 think that's what my approach would be. So 

5 what we need is sufficient time for the Work 

6 Group to look at it, and then I would like for 

7 us at least to get together for a 

8 teleconference and I don't know if that has to 

9 be official or how would we do that, Ted?

10 MR. KATZ: Yes, I mean that should 

11 be official, and in other words it should be a 

12 proper Work Group teleconference. But -- and 

13 your timing is, I mean, you'd have to do it 

14 the week before the Board meeting, which is, 

15 you know, the very end of November, beginning 

16 of December, that week.

17 So I think you check your 

18 schedules now and of course that means that 

19 you'd have to have a DCAS revised Evaluation 

20 Report ahead of that week so that you guys can 
33

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1 read it and be prepared, you know, because 

2 it's probably going to be earlier in the week. 

3 The very end of the week, like Thursday and 

4 Friday, it's hard. I mean you could do it 

5 then. It's just a little more difficult 

6 because it leaves you very little time to 

7 prepare to present at the Board meeting.

8 But if I'm hearing from Jim that 

9 you -- they think they can get this report out 

10 not immediately before the Board meeting but 

11 before that week before the Board meeting, 

12 then I think a teleconference would work. We 

13 can schedule one. We could schedule one right 

14 here while we are on this call.

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: My last week in 

November, November 28th through December 2nd 16 is 

17 open, and I think that would be a good time 

18 for a teleconference.

19 And I don't think we need much 

20 time for the Work Group to look at this 
34

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1 because we are pretty much up to speed on it. 

2 If we could get something from DCAS the week 

3 before, and at least have maybe -- I am 

4 speaking for myself -- but three or four days 

5 to look at it, it seems like we should be able 

6 to get this taken care of.

 MEMBER LOCKEY: How does the 2nd 7 of 

8 December look?

9 MR. KATZ: That's a Friday maybe? 

10 Is that a Friday? It just leaves very little 

11 time for anyone to prepare.

12 MEMBER BEACH: Yes. Ted, this is 

13 Josie. I am moving that whole week so I will 

14 try really hard to be on the call. It just 

15 depends on when you hit it.

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay, what date 

did you say Jim, the 2nd 17 of December?

18 MEMBER LOCKEY: But Ted said that 

19 doesn't give us enough time. How about the 

1st 20 ? Is that one day extra?
35

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1 MR. KATZ: Well, that's one day 

2 better, I mean that's one day better for sure, 

3 but --

 MEMBER BEACH: I prefer the 30th 4 if 

we can do the November 30th 5 . 

6 MEMBER LOCKEY: I am down at 

Research Triangle on the 30th 7 Josie. I can't 

8 do that --

9 MEMBER BEACH: Oh, okay, okay. 

10 Well I'll just try to get on.

11 MR. KATZ: Let me just suggest 

12 something, I mean if this Work Group meeting -

13 - if what you really want to do is see the 

14 writing now that you have heard a brief 

15 presentation of the general kind of status, 

16 where things stand, if all you really want to 

17 do is confirm that in writing, it is, you 

18 know, what you are hearing, then I don't think 

19 you need a Work Group meeting.

20 I think then you could read the 
36

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1 report and all would be good. You could go to 

2 the meeting you know, planning to say, you 

3 know, the Work Group thinks this makes sense.

4 But if you really, if you need the 

5 details because it will -- you think they 

6 might raise questions, then let's schedule the 

7 Work Group meeting and we can cancel it if 

8 once you see the report you say oh, it's all 

9 just as we thought.

10 But it would be good to schedule 

11 something at least in case you find yourself 

12 reading the report and it raising more 

13 questions than answering them, as you were 

14 expecting.

15 MEMBER LOCKEY: Ted, I agree, Jim 

16 Lockey, I agree with that.

17 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes, I do too.

18 MR. KATZ: So then let's go and, 

19 even -- if December 1 is the only date that 

20 works for Jim, why don't we just book for 
37

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December 1st 1 , and it's possible we won't need 

2 it, if you read the report and it puts 

3 everything to bed, then you won't need it, and 

4 we'll cancel it.

5 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. I think 

6 that sounds good.

7 MEMBER LOCKEY: What time?

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: How about 1 p.m. 

9 like today?

10 MEMBER LOCKEY: One p.m. eastern 

11 standard time, good.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: Eastern standard. 

13 And then let's go back to Jim and Chris. 

14 When do you think we could expect the revised 

15 ER?

16 DR. NETON: I'll let Chris answer 

17 that since he is involved more than I am in 

18 that portion.

19 MR. CRAWFORD: A lot of it depends 

20 on administrative details unfortunately, that 
38

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1 is I believe that we can come up with a draft 

2 version possibly by the end of this week.

3 But it has to be vetted by ORAU, 

4 by Jim, it has to be sent to probably the NGC. 

5 It has to have DOE clearance.

6 DR. NETON: I think -- I would say 

7 that we could have something at least a week 

before your December 1st 8 meeting, if not well 

9 in advance of that, but that's -- that to me 

10 would be sort of a worst case scenario.

11 CHAIR ROESSLER: Let's see. We 

12 have Thanksgiving, I think -- is Thanksgiving 

the 24th 13 ? 

14 DR. NETON: You know, you're 

15 right.

16 CHAIR ROESSLER: Yes. You know, 

17 I'd say, could we aim at something --

18 MEMBER BEACH: Before.

19 CHAIR ROESSLER: If you thought 

you could get us something the 21st 20 to the 
39

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22nd 1 , then I think we would be in really good 

2 shape.

3 DR. NETON: Okay, I think we 

4 should be able to do that, because that's a 

5 little less than a month from now, and --

6 MR. KATZ: This is Ted. 

7 DR. NETON: I am not clear that 

8 this needs to have DOE review. If it does, 

9 that always adds a few days, but if you know, 

10 we should be able to get it through the 

11 process.

12 DR. MAURO: Jim, just a quick 

13 technical question. Is there any troubling 

14 problems with the external? As I recall, what 

15 I'm hearing is that -- that the position that 

16 you will be taking is you can't reconstruct 

17 internal for lack of bioassay data for the 

18 Building 30.

19 But all along, I believe, our 

20 position was that when we reviewed the 
40

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1 original work, that you were in pretty good 

2 shape with external. How does this affect 

3 external?

4 DR. NETON: Well, it shouldn't. I 

5 think we are going to leave that portion 

6 intact, and you know, say that we can do 

7 external dose reconstructions with sufficient 

8 accuracy.

9 DR. MAURO: And you have external 

10 data that you can make a distinction between 

11 the workers in Building 38 and Building 30?

12 DR. NETON: No, but I think the 

13 areas where you have higher external dose 

14 rates are where the borers were used.

15 DR. MAURO: Okay.

16 DR. NETON: And you can assume 

17 that the person was in Building 30. That 

18 would be our default position.

19 DR. MAURO: Okay.

20 CHAIR ROESSLER: But that would be 
41

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1 a bounding --

2 DR. NETON: Yes, right, because 

3 otherwise, as you know, when you have purified 

4 uranium, the dose rates go way down.

5 DR. MAURO: Got you, and that 

6 would be 38, where there's the purified --

7 DR. NETON: Right. 

8 DR. MAURO: Those two years or so. 

9 Okay. Good.

10 MS. BONSIGNORE: This is 

11 Antoinette. I just have a quick question for 

12 Steve and John. I had sent Ted some memos 

13 from -- some Linde memos from 1945 and 1946, 

14 actually last December.

15 And I resent them to Ted a few 

16 days -- I think it was a few days ago -- for 

17 everyone to take a look at because I was 

18 wondering -- and I was wondering if the SC&A 

19 team had had an opportunity to look at those 

20 memos that talk about the diversion of 
42

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1 effluents from injection wells at one end of 

2 the Linde facility to another end of the Linde 

3 facility?

4 DR. OSTROW: Antoinette, this is 

5 Steve. We did look at it, and I was sort of 

6 alluding to it at the beginning, when I was 

7 talking before.

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right.

9 DR. OSTROW: We know that they 

10 were -- the memos show that the effluent was 

11 diverted, but it doesn't say specifically that 

12 the effluent was diverted and they went 

13 through tunnels, you know, certain --

14 MS. BONSIGNORE: Well, actually, 

15 if you look -- if you look a little bit, there 

16 are a couple of memos afterwards that talk 

17 about the pipe tunnels.

18 DR. OSTROW: Yes.

19 MS. BONSIGNORE: And how the pipe 

20 tunnels, how there was some water seepage into 
43

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1 the ground and into the pipe tunnels and how 

2 some of that water seepage was affecting the 

3 conduit boxes.

4 DR. OSTROW: Yes, we read all 

5 that, but it's still -- it raises questions. 

6 It doesn't nail down exactly which tunnels 

7 they are talking about, you know.

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right. I guess 

9 my question was, and maybe this is just, you 

10 know, this is just sort of -- just kind of 

11 logically speaking, if you are talking about 

12 an injection well located at Building 8, and 

13 effluents being diverted to injection wells 

14 over at Building 30, which are at opposite 

15 ends of the facility, how would that have 

16 occurred?

17 DR. OSTROW: I agree with you 

18 logically. But as I said at the beginning, we 

19 have a lot of circumstantial evidence that the 

20 tunnels were around, but we don't really have 
44

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1 a document that says for sure they were there.

2 That's why I sort of recommended 

3 that -- well I did recommend that SC&A's 

4 position is that we -- the most conservative 

5 thing to do was just to assume the tunnels 

6 were there. There's too much doubt about when 

7 they were actually built.

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: Okay. Thank you. 

9 I just wanted to clarify that because I 

10 wasn't sure if you were referring to those 

11 specific memos or not. Thank you.

12 DR. OSTROW: Yes, and we thank 

13 you, we know you just sent them originally in 

14 December, we had looked at them then, but we 

15 didn't recall them when we were doing our 

16 report right now. We sort of --

17 MS. BONSIGNORE: Right, yes and 

18 that's what I noticed so that's why I wanted -

19 - 

20 DR. OSTROW: I personally had them 
45

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1 filed under the SEC-107, the last one we 

2 looked at.

3 MS. BONSIGNORE: Yes, I thought 

4 that maybe because the memo was titled SEC-107 

5 and --

6 DR. OSTROW: Right, anyway, so we 

7 appreciate your resending them.

8 MS. BONSIGNORE: Sure, okay. 

9 Thank you Steve.

10 CHAIR ROESSLER: This is Gen 

11 again. I have a question I guess of Ted. I 

12 know Mike has not been -- Mike Gibson has not 

13 been on the last couple of teleconferences 

14 with us. Is he being kept aware of the 

15 communications and the information and do we 

16 expect that he might be able to join us either 

17 for the Board meeting or for a Work Group 

18 teleconference if --

19 MEMBER GIBSON: Gen, are you 

20 talking about me?
46

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1 CHAIR ROESSLER: Hi, are you on 

2 Mike?

3 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I got on 

4 about five after. I just didn't get a chance 

5 to cut in and --

6 CHAIR ROESSLER: Great. Okay, 

7 well I just wanted to make sure that you had 

8 all the information. Do you have any comments 

9 or input at this point?

10 MEMBER GIBSON: No, I am satisfied 

11 with the approach we are taking.

12 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay then, it 

13 seems to me unless somebody else has some 

14 information or comments that we have a plan. 

15 We are going to look for the revised ER by 

November 21st or 22nd 16 , that this will give the 

17 Work Group a chance to take a look at it, and 

18 then we will decide whether we need a 

teleconference December 1st 19 , 1 p.m. eastern 

20 time.
47

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1 But we will plan, hopefully, to 

2 make a presentation at the Board meeting in 

3 December.

4 DR. MAURO: Gen, this is John. By 

5 way of action items, should I assume that SC&A 

6 will not be asked to review it or would you 

7 like us to look at it?

8 CHAIR ROESSLER: Well, I think you 

9 clarified that. I think, yes, I was -- I had 

10 kind of forgotten that in a case like this 

11 it's really not usually necessary.

12 DR. MAURO: Okay.

13 MR. KATZ: Gen, this is Ted. I 

14 mean I think SC&A should look at it. I mean 

15 they have been along for the ride and tasked 

16 for reviewing all these reports on the Linde 

17 all along, so I think they should review it. 

18 I mean I don't think you need to produce a 

19 report, John --

20 DR. MAURO: Okay, I understand.
48

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1 MR. KATZ: But I think -- I just 

2 think -- I think you do need to be clear about 

3 the basis being given and so that if the Board 

4 at Tampa asks you, you know, what do you think 

5 of this, this is, you know, a 180-degree turn 

6 but does this make sense to you, I think you 

7 need to be able to answer that question.

8 DR. MAURO: Fine. We'll read it 

9 without a report and be prepared to discuss it 

10 as needed.

11 MR. KATZ: Exactly, no report's 

12 needed but just be prepared.

13 DR. MAURO: Very good. Fair 

14 enough. Good.

15 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay, any other 

16 comments or are we ready to adjourn?

17 (No response.)

18 MR. KATZ: Okay, so I think we are 

19 ready to adjourn. Thank you everyone. I will 

20 send out -- we will send out a meeting notice 
49

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1 for the first and just write in your calendars 

2 that it's provisional.

3 And then we will make a decision 

4 after you have all had a chance to read the 

5 report. We can do that by email. You can 

6 just email me and let me know if you think 

7 it's a moot issue, don't need the meeting, or 

8 that you want the meeting, whichever.

9 CHAIR ROESSLER: Okay. Thanks.

10 (Whereupon the above-entitled 

11 matter adjourned at 1:42 p.m.)

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 
50

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 

2 

3 

4