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1

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON WELDON SPRING

+ + + + +

MONDAY

SEPTEMBER 10, 2012

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened 

telephonically at 1:00 p.m., Richard Lemen, 

Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

RICHARD LEMEN, Chairman

R. WILLIAM FIELD, Member

JAMES M. MELIUS, Member
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ALSO PRESENT: 2

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

RON BUCHANAN, SC&A

DAVID HARRISON, ORAU Team

MONICA HARRISON-MAPLES, ORAU Team

STU HINNEFELD, DCAS

KAREN JOHNSON

MARY JOHNSON

JENNY LIN, HHS

TINA TRIPLETT
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3

 T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

PAGE

Welcome and Introduction

by Mr. Ted Katz...................... 4 

Work Group Discussion on Thorium

Processing (DCAS White Paper)........ 5 

Work Group Discussion on Raffinate

Pits (SC&A memorandum).............. 14

Petitioner Comments ...................... 59

Summary and WG Report to the Board ....... 52

Adjourn .................................. 58
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4 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (1:01 p.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: So Weldon Springs, 

4 specific site, to please speak to conflict of 

5 interest. Let's go with the Chair first.

6 (Roll call.)

7 MR. KATZ: Okay, then. The agenda 

8 for this meeting, Weldon Springs Work Group, 

9 Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health 

10 is posted on the NIOSH website, on the Board 

11 meeting page under meetings.

12 And there are two documents also 

13 posted there. A memo from SC&A and a document 

14 on Thorium processing at Weldon Spring from 

15 DCAS. Those are both posted there.

16 Now, Board members should also 

17 have received some background additional 

18 materials related to the drying of the pits, 

19 which is what the memo addresses from SC&A. 

20 But those are not posted. I don't think those 

21 were Privacy Act cleared. And that's it. 
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5 1 Dick, it's your agenda.

2 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Well, the agenda 

3 starts out with talking about the Thorium 

4 Processing White Paper. I guess this was 

5 prepared by your office, right, Stu?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, ORAU and us.

7 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Do you want to 

8 present it? I was not at the last Board 

9 meeting, so I don't know if it was presented 

10 entirely to everyone there. I don't want to 

11 repeat something.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I'll run 

13 through it a little bit. It is very much the 

14 information that I described verbally at the 

15 last Board meeting.

16 Although I went through it, and 

17 there was nothing in writing for anyone to 

18 follow along with because we had just 

19 assembled, you know, the pieces of information 

20 right before and we didn't really have time to 

21 get a paper together.
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6 1 So one of the assignments out of 

2 that meeting was to provide this product that 

3 summarized the information provided verbally 

4 at the last Board meeting.

5 So there's some introductory 

6 information here about Weldon Springs and the 

7 kinds of information they process -- the kinds 

8 of materials they process is overwhelmingly 

9 natural uranium or normal uranium and then 

10 some small amount of depleted uranium, some 

11 small amount of enriched uranium and 

12 relatively small amount of natural thorium.

13 The issue that we wanted to 

14 address with this thorium processing paper 

15 was, could the thorium process at Weldon 

16 Springs have been recycled thorium in the 

17 sense that we use it in this program.

18 We use the term recycled uranium 

19 far more frequently than recycled thorium. 

20 But in the terms that we use it for this 

21 program, it certainly has the same meaning in 
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7 1 both cases.

2 It means it's either uranium or 

3 thorium that has been irradiated in a reactor 

4 and then has gone through a recovery process 

5 in order to take out some product of that 

6 irradiation.

7 In the case of thorium, the 

8 product of the irradiation that you're looking 

9 for is uranium-233. So that material has been 

10 stripped out chemically and the thorium has 

11 also been reclaimed and returned back into the 

12 DOE system for, perhaps, additional use.

13 During that chemical separation 

14 process where they remove U-233 and then they 

15 remove the thorium, those chemical 

16 purifications aren't perfectly precise. And 

17 so some amount of contaminant material does 

18 come along in the recycled thorium, or in the 

19 recycled uranium, if you're talking about the 

20 uranium chain.

21 So the question was, could this 
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8 1 material have been recycled thorium because 

2 there are some documents, I think mainly 

3 environmental EPA-type documents that describe 

4 the activities at Weldon Springs as having 

5 processed recycled thorium.

6 So our own view of that is that 

7 well, the term recycled throughout the 

8 industry does not have this very specific 

9 name, you know, meaning that we use it for, 

10 meaning the material was irradiated and then 

11 recovered.

12 Some other uses of recycle are to 

13 talk about reclaiming scrap or recycling 

14 scrap. And those are materials that, for 

15 instance, they could be a uranium compound if 

16 you're talking about uranium or a thorium 

17 compound if you're talking about thorium that 

18 had been utilized in some fashion.

19 And you've got this material left 

20 over and you want to reclaim the thorium from 

21 it and so you would put it back in. And 
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9 1 sometimes you might call that recycling, or 

2 sometimes they call it reprocessing or 

3 reclaiming or recycling.

4 So there were -- that's the 

5 terminology we were trying to sort out, and 

6 the fact that these documents in the '80s who 

7 first said that well, the springs handled 

8 recycled thorium. Could that have meant that 

9 they handled thorium that had been in a 

10 reactor and subsequently then put back in the 

11 system?

12 So in order to find that out, we 

13 wanted to make sure we knew, first of all, 

14 what dates the thorium arrived at Weldon 

15 Spring. And so we found some documents that 

16 give an authoritative and comprehensive 

17 inventory of the processing of all the 

18 materials: natural uranium, depleted, enriched 

19 uranium and thorium at Weldon Springs.

20 And so we recount that information 

21 in the document saying here are the 
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10 1 inventories they carried year by year. And 

2 from that inventory reporting, it's pretty 

3 clear that the thorium started arriving in 

4 bulk at Weldon Springs in the last half of 

5 1963, which is, of course, fiscal 1964.

6 There was some small amount of 

7 thorium that apparently was there when they 

8 started up, whether they brought it over from 

9 Mallinckrodt or whatever. There was some 

10 amount there, but it appeared to be static, 

11 like it was in storage or in some residue 

12 material that was not apparently processed 

13 because it stayed unchanged, the inventory 

14 stayed unchanged and there weren't any reports 

15 of any of that material being processed in 

16 those inventory reports.

17 So from that, it looked pretty 

18 clear to us that the thorium arrived from '63 

19 through '66, the end of Weldon Springs= 

20 operation, and that's what matches the 

21 inventory report.
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11 1 We also looked further into the 

2 process that the Department of Energy used to 

3 generate recycled thorium the way we would use 

4 the term. In other words, thorium that was 

5 irradiated in a reactor and then reclaimed 

6 from the product and the other wastes and sent 

7 back into the system. That's what we would 

8 call recycled thorium.

9 That work went on at Savannah 

10 River in the mid '60s. We found these 

11 documents and we refer to them in our report. 

12 That went on in the mid '60s to irradiate 

13 thorium in order to manufacture U-233, take 

14 out the U-233, and then after the first time 

15 they did it, they also then took out the 

16 thorium from the other waste materials and 

17 sent that recycled thorium to Fernald. That 

18 occurred in, like, '66.

19 So the time that Weldon Springs 

20 was shutting down was the first time that the 

21 recycled thorium -- the way we use the term --
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12 1 showed up at Fernald.

2 And so from that, we concluded 

3 that the thorium that was sent to Weldon 

4 Springs, and it went from Fernald to Weldon 

5 Springs in 1963, could not have been the 

6 recycled thorium that had been in the reactor.

7 We also investigated -- from the 

8 Fernald records, we found a document that gave 

9 an accounting of all the thorium task orders 

10 that Fernald had engaged in.

11 A task order was just that, it was 

12 an order to go do this, whether it was to 

13 manufacture this product and to send it to 

14 this place. And there's a fairly lengthy 

15 appendix on that document.

16 That document was written in the 

17 '80s. The writer, the author went back and 

18 reviewed all their files and found all these 

19 task orders for thorium and put them in these 

20 lists.

21 And you can see in those task 
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13 1 orders, they start, the ones that talk about 

2 sending thorium to Weldon Springs start in 

3 late '63 or fiscal '64, and they go then for 

4 about two or three years through '66 to send 

5 thorium down to Weldon Springs.

6 And so that essentially reinforces 

7 the inventory report that we saw from Weldon 

8 Springs. Is there anything I didn't cover 

9 very well or any questions there? Or anything 

10 specifically about the report that we sent 

11 that anyone wants to ask questions about?

12 (No response.)

13 Was I on mute?

14 MEMBER MELIUS: No, this is Jim 

15 Melius. I have, quick, just a comment. I 

16 thought the report was very helpful and I 

17 thought the documentation was reasonably 

18 convincing.

19 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I would echo 

20 that. I found the report very useful to me in 

21 understanding the situation a little bit 
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14 1 better. So thank you for putting it in writing 

2 in a way that I could understand it.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, ORAU had to 

4 write it so I can understand it, so they had 

5 to shoot pretty low.

6 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: So are there any 

7 questions about the White Paper at this time?

8 DR. BUCHANAN: This is Ron 

9 Buchanan of SC&A. I read it, and I've got 

10 some of the documents to verify and I did not 

11 find anything that would show otherwise.

12 So SC&A had no problems with the 

13 use of the term recycled as meaning internally 

14 rather than reactor-irradiated.

15 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Okay. If there's 

16 nothing other to discuss on this issue, let's 

17 move to the raffinate pits SC&A memorandum. 

18 And I also would like to talk, at this time or 

19 after that, about the NIOSH Response that was 

20 sent to us also. I had some questions on 

21 that, on the raffinate pits. Is that all 
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15 1 right with everyone? Hello?

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, I guess I'll 

3 start here then, as well.

4 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Are you going to 

5 address the NIOSH response? Or what are you 

6 going to address?

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, how would 

8 you like me to go? I was going to start with 

9 the ORAU report.

10 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Well, you can do 

11 that and then we'll go to the second part of 

12 it, all right?

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. There's 

14 quite a lot of information in here that talks 

15 about this period.

16 I want to -- just remember this 

17 period we're talking about now from the period 

18 in the interval between the end of operations 

19 which occurred in, like, 1966 and the 

20 beginning of the DOE remediation, which 

21 occurred somewhere in the mid '80s, about 1985 
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16 1 or '86 I think is when they started getting 

2 serious with remediating the plant. And 

3 during that time, first of all, from '67 

4 through '85, the Weldon Springs Plant portion 

5 was the property of the Army, and that was 

6 turned over to the Department of the Army.

7 The pit area, which is immediately 

8 adjacent -- it's a fairly small number of 

9 acres immediately adjacent to the plant --

10 remained DOE's property. And the quarry, 

11 which is four miles down the road, remained 

12 DOE's property.

13 So we're talking about 

14 resuspension from the raffinate pits. But 

15 during that time from, well I'm getting into 

16 my response part here, so I'll stop.

17 But anyway, we're talking about a 

18 period of time here when there was no DOE 

19 activity at anywhere around there. Now the 

20 issue you have there, you have a site with 

21 nobody there is that there is no reason to do 
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17 1 any monitoring, or very little reason to do 

2 any monitoring.

3 And so you don't see very much. 

4 And there are some references to monitoring 

5 because it appears that the DOE put a little 

6 contract out to National Lead who ran Fernald 

7 and said, hey, we would like you to run down 

8 there and take some environmental samples now 

9 and then.

10 Although there's very little 

11 description that we've encountered of what 

12 kind of environmental program, you know, 

13 monitoring program they were supposed to do.

14 It appeared to be, from what I've 

15 been able to see and what I've found, mainly a 

16 water monitoring program. They would collect, 

17 I think they had some surface water locations 

18 that they were supposed to monitor.

19 And they may have been monitoring 

20 some ground water wells, as well. And at 

21 least one of their reports, and maybe more of 
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18 1 their reports, I'm a little unclear right now 

2 in all the details of all the issues I'm 

3 trying to cover, described air sampling being 

4 done and being consistent with background.

5 And I do remember one report 

6 specifically says they took some air samples 

7 and there are no short- or long-lived 

8 radionuclides that can be attributed to Weldon 

9 Springs operations.

10 So you see statements like that, 

11 but you don't really see much description of 

12 the sampling and analysis, at least that I 

13 have not seen. And you don't see actual 

14 results, you know, like our minimum detectable 

15 activity was this and we didn't see that, it 

16 was less than that. So it's a little bit of 

17 an unsatisfying reporting that we had back in 

18 those times.

19 I may want to stop and ask Monica 

20 or David if they want to add more to this 

21 because they've done this work and they're 
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19 1 probably a lot more familiar with the various 

2 references during that time than I am.

3 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: No, I don't 

4 have anything to add unless there's some 

5 questions to what you would say.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, well we'll 

7 wait for questions, then, if there are any.

8 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: Okay.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: So during those 

10 times, there don't appear to have been any 

11 people there, any covered people, I should say 

12 that. There were some people working for the 

13 Army and the Army contractors for a couple 

14 years.

15 But there don't seem to be any DOE 

16 people there, or DOE contractor people there. 

17 And then until you get into, say the mid '80s 

18 when the DOE started getting serious about 

19 remediating the place, and at which time you 

20 get some environmental monitoring in 

21 preparation for that.
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20 1 And those documents are referred 

2 to here in the report. There are some results 

3 that are brought out of that report and 

4 tabularized in a certain fashion.

5 I think some of them were modified 

6 in order to make them indicative of exposures, 

7 like, in the plant proper as opposed to on the 

8 boundary.

9 So there are some things reported 

10 there, but those reported years started about 

11 '87 and go through somewhere around 2000, the 

12 years when the active remediation was 

13 underway, which included, I'm pretty sure they 

14 dug up and either shipped off or dried and 

15 buried the residues that were in the raffinate 

16 pits during that remediation period, as well 

17 as taking down the buildings and remediating 

18 the ground.

19 So there was a lot of activity 

20 going on during the period toward the other 

21 years, not the beginning years. But at the 
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21 1 very beginning, when I read the environmental 

2 report, it didn't seem to me that there was 

3 very much going on.

4 It was still pretty quiescent in 

5 '87, which is the first year they put out 

6 fixed air particulate samplers in fixed 

7 locations that ran all the time.

8 And for those results, it seemed 

9 again that they couldn't find results that 

10 exceeded the detection level of their 

11 analysis. They did gross alpha analysis, I 

12 think, on each filter and then they composited 

13 filters to do an isotopic analysis.

14 And either way, I believe they 

15 were lower than the detect line. I may be 

16 wrong on that, but Monica or David maybe could 

17 correct me.

18 So the kind of information, you 

19 know, that you would like to have is just, 

20 you're just not going to have at a site that 

21 is abandoned, that no one is at, because there 
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22 1 was no one there to change the filters and 

2 maintain the pumps.

3 But when you do have that 

4 information, right before, you know, at the 

5 start end or before the remediation actually 

6 gets started in '87, also those years are 

7 about the time that the environmental reports 

8 make the observation that during dry weather, 

9 pits one and two dry out.

10 You know, those observations were 

11 also made in, I think the mid '80s or they're 

12 in documents that were written in the mid 

13 '80s. You have these air samples that came to 

14 be, that are essentially background or non15 detectable.

16 So it seems that, if there is an 

17 issue here from airborne, from resuspension, 

18 first of all, doesn't seem a very high dose. 

19 And secondly, there are numbers from '87, 

20 monitoring numbers that you can do a missed 

21 dose calculation from to cover the years in 
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23 1 the interstitial period if you need it.

2 Now by saying that, I want to get 

3 into my response a little bit, the NIOSH 

4 response where, let's see, I think I sent this 

5 in an email. I'm pulling up my things here as 

6 I talk about them.

7 One of the things I say in there 

8 is during that period, it doesn't seem that 

9 there were any covered employees between '66 

10 or, I guess '67 would have been the start of 

11 the uncovered period, through about '85. I 

12 think '85 is the start of the remediation, 

13 yes, for the plant. October of 1985 is the 

14 start of remediation. So in that period from 

15 '67 through up until October of '85, it would 

16 appear there wouldn't be covered employees 

17 there.

18 The people that worked there 

19 during up through about '69 were contractors 

20 for the Army and maybe some Army personnel 

21 because when they took the plant back from 
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24 1 Weldon Springs, they did intend to use it to 

2 make a defoliant.

3 And so they spent some effort 

4 trying to decontaminate it. Those contract 

5 employees would be contractors to the 

6 Department of Army. And our program is only 

7 allowed to deal with contractors or employees 

8 of the Department of Energy.

9 So it's, first of all, doesn't 

10 seem like there's anybody there. And if there 

11 is, if we find out later on that, hey, I'm 

12 wrong, there were some DOE people or DOE 

13 contractors here who spent a significant 

14 amount of time there, that we would have these 

15 monitoring data in 1987 that we think, in this 

16 case, would be suitable to use for that 

17 interstitial period because of, first of all, 

18 the quiescent nature of the site and secondly 

19 because of the several intermittent mentions 

20 from reports in that intervening period about 

21 people saying air samples were not 
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25 1 distinguishable from background.

2 As unsatisfying as that kind of 

3 air sampling report is, it is an indication 

4 that some samples were taken and kind of were 

5 consistent then with the ones collected in 

6 '87.

7 So that's all I can think of to 

8 say right now. If you have questions or 

9 comments, maybe David and Monica and I can 

10 answer them.

11 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Can I ask for 

12 questions now by anyone? Jim, do you have 

13 any?

14 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, I had to get 

15 my mute button turned off. I've only add, and 

16 this has come up in another site is that, I 

17 mean, I sort of agree with your points as to 

18 I would just add that, you know, should we 

19 find somebody that would be eligible during 

20 that time period, I think then we need to look 

21 at what activities they were doing at the 
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26 1 site.

2 It's hard to do a hypothetical. 

3 You don't know, you know, it's a big 

4 difference between somebody who was a security 

5 guard observing the site and someone actually 

6 doing various kinds of activities at the site.

7 And I think it's just hard to tell 

8 whether you can reconstruct or not 

9 reconstruct, you know, on a hypothetical 

10 person.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, I remember 

12 you making that point on another site.

13 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes. But at the 

14 same time, I don't think that changes, you 

15 know -- your bottom line is that we don't

16 believe anybody was working at the site.

17 You don't have anybody in the, so 

18 it's sort of a moot point, you know, until we 

19 have an actual person there, or people that 

20 are eligible for the program.

21 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Are there any 
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27 1 other questions by others? 

2 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, this is Bill 

3 Field. I'm on the call, I'm sorry, I got in 

4 late.

5 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: It's okay.

6 MEMBER FIELD: I don't have any 

7 additional questions.

8 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Okay.

9 DR. BUCHANAN: This is Ron 

10 Buchanan, SC&A. And I would like to bring --

11 and I think that Stu's group did a good job in 

12 looking into this. However, I would like to 

13 bring up the point that this SEC and this Work 

14 Group is concerned with the years '57 through 

15 '67.

16 And in reading this, I would like 

17 Stu or one of your colleagues, would you 

18 summarize that period? This is what we're 

19 more interested in as pit one and two dried 

20 out here in '57 to '67.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, to be 
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28 1 honest, since the observations were from the 

2 mid '80s, I've been focusing on that 

3 interstitial period.

4 I can say that during the 

5 operation of the plant, when there are people 

6 there and the raffinate pits are being 

7 utilized and you have people out there at the 

8 raffinate pits, my experience at Fernald would 

9 indicate that employees make particular effort 

10 to keep water on the raffinate pits and make 

11 sure the raffinates are covered by water.

12 But that's from my experience 

13 somewhere else. And I did not do any research 

14 in that period because of the data of the 

15 observations. I don't know if Monica and 

16 David did or not.

17 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: This is 

18 Monica. I wasn't really prepared for this 

19 question, so I don't have specific reference 

20 ID numbers for you. But when we did the 

21 investigations into the raffinate pits, all of 
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29 1 the documentation we had up until this late 

2 report in 1989 specifically stated that the 

3 raffinate pits were covered in liquid, 

4 especially pits one and two.

5 We didn't see anything indicating 

6 any drying out of the pits until the '80s.

7 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: And did you see 

8 that any of the pits dried out completely so 

9 there wasn't any water on any of them in the 

10 1980's?

11 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: We didn't 

12 see anything that indicated there wasn't any 

13 water. There was one or two reports in the 

14 '80s that said that the edges of the pits were 

15 drying out and that there was a possible 

16 concern about blowing or drying out at that 

17 point.

18 We went back and we looked at 

19 rainfall data and everything else, and you 

20 know, we don't have any indication of any 

21 drying until that time.
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30 1 MS. TRIPLETT: This is Tina 

2 Triplett. Can I make a comment?

3 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Yes.

4 MS. TRIPLETT: I have another 

5 document that states, it's a report from 1990 

6 from DOE and it specifically states between 

7 1966 and 1986, the surface water evaporated 

8 from pits one and two during several summers.

9 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Did they say 

10 which summers, or did they give that data?

11 MS. TRIPLETT: It says from those 

12 years. It just says from '66 to '86. So our 

13 point is, the potential was there for them to 

14 dry out. That's the whole point of this 

15 discussion.

16 The potential was there. There's 

17 additional documents that I also have that 

18 state that, during dry summer, these pits have 

19 become dry, exposing the bottom sediments. So 

20 the potential was there, that's my point.

21 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: Could you 
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31 1 restate the years you've just mentioned? You 

2 said from '66?

3 MS. TRIPLETT: Well between '66 

4 and 1986. And this is a DOE document from 

5 July 1990.

6 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: And there are no 

7 specific dates and in what NIOSH and ORAU 

8 looked at, did you find any? You found 

9 nothing, I guess, that would indicate that 

10 they dried out?

11 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: We had 

12 documents that specifically said that they 

13 were not dry. But I can't pull up the SRDB 

14 number right in front of me at this moment.

15 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Have you looked 

16 at the DOE document that Tina was talking 

17 about?

18 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: Yes, I have.

19 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: And you can't 

20 gather from it any more information?

21 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: No. It 
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32 1 specifically states to the potential for 

2 drying out.

3 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: So all we have is 

4 potential and no records that would 

5 substantiate that?

6 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: That would 

7 be correct. Those are the years, as Stu 

8 mentioned, that DOE wasn't occupying the site 

9 any longer.

10 So I think the report speaks to 

11 the potential for drying out primarily because 

12 there was no more raffinate being pumped into 

13 the pits at that point, and there wasn't 

14 continuous occupation to be sure that water 

15 was kept on.

16 There were some documents that we 

17 saw up until that point where there was 

18 contracts where they were supposed to keep 

19 water on the pits during the operational 

20 years.

21 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: That's all it 
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33 1 said? Just keep water on the pits?

2 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: Yes, they 

3 weren't allowed to let them dry out.

4 MS. TRIPLETT: We would like to 

5 see copies of those, if you have them, because 

6 I don't ever recall seeing that in the FOIA 

7 request.

8 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: Yes, the 

9 same documentation that talks about the 

10 contract for security also briefly mentioned 

11 that they were to be kept moist.

12 MS. TRIPLETT: Yes, I'm just 

13 requesting to see that documentation because 

14 we don't have it.

15 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: I 

16 understand. I'll be sure and look up that 

17 number for you. I believe you've received it 

18 in FOIA, but it might have been something you 

19 missed. And I'll look it up and make sure 

20 that you have access to that.

21 MS. TRIPLETT: Okay, that would be 
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34 1 great.

2 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Are there any 

3 other comments on this?

4 MEMBER FIELD: Dick, this is Bill. 

5 I just had a question. It seems like, from 

6 precipitation, that if you just relied on the 

7 precipitation, it looks like there was very 

8 little precipitation right before the covered 

9 period, if I'm reading the graph correctly.

10 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Correct.

11 MEMBER FIELD: So during that time 

12 period, I think it's very important to try to 

13 figure out whether or not there was water 

14 added or the process totally relied on this 

15 precipitation.

16 But what I've just heard, it 

17 sounds like during the covered period, that 

18 there was additional water placed on in 

19 periods where there was less rainfall.

20 That's my take from what I'm 

21 hearing. Is that correct?
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35 1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well Bill, this is 

2 Stu Hinnefeld and it would be my expectation 

3 that that would be part of the operation of 

4 the pits is that you keep water in pits 

5 because my expectations, be it based on my 

6 experience, where at Fernald that was 

7 expected.

8 You know, there would be water 

9 would be kept on the pits. And there was a 

10 group who was responsible for doing that when 

11 the place was occupied and all these people 

12 working around there.

13 So it would be my expectation that 

14 they would do that. I think probably we would 

15 have to do some research into whether we can 

16 find that or not because I don't think we 

17 really researched the '57 through '67, or '57 

18 through '66 period about, you know, the status 

19 of the pits drying out.

20 MEMBER FIELD: Right.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Pits three and 
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36 1 four didn't exist for the first part of that 

2 period. They were built later on. And all 

3 the accounts I saw that pits three and four 

4 always had water on them, or free-bore above 

5 the raffinates before you got to the top.

6 So the water was deeper on top. 

7 And so all those things I've seen have always 

8 said three and four always had water. One and 

9 two, at times, could have dried out.

10 MEMBER FIELD: Right, right.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: So we would have 

12 to go back and look at the operating period to 

13 see if we can find anything that talks about 

14 the treatment of the pits during that period 

15 and whether they were kept wet or not.

16 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Where would you 

17 go to look for that? I mean, do you have some 

18 source that you think might be productive?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we have a 

20 lot of documents from Weldon Springs. I don't 

21 know that that's been a part of our research 
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37 1 yet, and I don't know what we have in terms of 

2 operational information.

3 You know, you're almost now 

4 getting sort of into an operational era. And 

5 in trying to think in my mind, would it have 

6 mattered if they had dried out because, based 

7 on what are we doing based on, or I would have 

8 to go back and look and see what we're doing 

9 for dose reconstruction during the covered 

10 period that may address something like that.

11 So we already have all this 

12 information handy, and I'm just not ready, 

13 familiar with it because I hadn't prepared for 

14 that question today.

15 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I guess I'm a 

16 little bit lost as to where your intent would 

17 be to go at this point in time.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, to find out 

19 what we can. You know, there's a couple 

20 things. One is do we find out anything about, 

21 you know, how the pits were operated during 
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38 1 the operational period.

2 Now we're talking about the 

3 operational period of the plant. How were the 

4 pits operated? If we can find out anything 

5 about that.

6 And then I just need to refresh my 

7 memory about what do we say in the existing 

8 Site Profile about potential exposures of 

9 raffinate pits because theoretically we should 

10 have that issue covered in our existing Site 

11 Profile because if there is a potential for 

12 exposure from the raffinate pits, we would 

13 have to have a way to deal with that.

14 And if we feel like there's not a 

15 potential for exposure from the raffinate 

16 pits, then we should be able to say why we 

17 reached that conclusion.

18 MS. KAREN JOHNSON: This is Karen. 

19 I have a question.

20 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Yes.

21 MS. KAREN JOHNSON: Stu, you 
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39 1 stated something that kind of hit on something 

2 for me because all along, we've heard 

3 different things about how much data there is 

4 for Weldon Springs.

5 Yes, we have a lot of documents. 

6 Not much of it's for the operational period. 

7 Is that the case, there's not a lot of 

8 documentation for the operations?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: No, what I meant 

10 to say was the kind of information that you 

11 would find that would, for instance, be 

12 evidence that there was an intent to keep 

13 water on the pits, that would be sort of an 

14 operating procedure, maybe.

15 You know, I'm not exactly sure 

16 what Weldon Springs would write during their 

17 operational period to tell people, keep water 

18 on the pits. You know, they may have just 

19 told the water treatment guys, keep water on 

20 the pits.

21 And so I'm not 100 percent sure 
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40 1 that you're going to see, you know, not being 

2 able to think of what they would have written 

3 to tell people to do that. I don't know what 

4 we'll be able to find in our research.

5 I didn't mean to say that we don't 

6 have much information from the operational 

7 period. That's not what I meant to say.

8 What I meant to say was I don't 

9 know what kind of document they would have 

10 written, whether it would be an operational 

11 standard, you know, like a standard operating 

12 procedure or something like that, what they 

13 would have written that would have said that.

14 And since I don't know what they 

15 would have written to say that, I don't know 

16 how successful we'll be in finding something 

17 that would have said that. But we do have a 

18 lot of documents from the operational period.

19 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Hasn't NIOSH gone 

20 through all of the documents for the 

21 operational period at this time?
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41 1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, yes. Dick, 

2 I think we probably have. And we must have 

3 done something on the Site Profile for that 

4 period of time. I don't know, Monica or 

5 David, anything come to mind with you guys?

6 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: Dave, you 

7 want to speak to that?

8 MR. HARRISON: I'm sorry, I was 

9 looking at another document under the waste. 

10 Let's see what's going on. Waste assessment, 

11 characterization of the raffinate pits, 

12 raffinate pits. And I was looking for 

13 physically if there's anything in there about 

14 periods of time when the water in the pits may 

15 have evaporated, so forth. So I really didn't 

16 hear what you said, I apologize.

17 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: The question 

18 had to do with the current TBD and how we 

19 address potential exposures from the raffinate 

20 pits during the operational period.

21 MR. HARRISON: Well, I can tell 
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42 1 you that there's going to be some TBD up for 

2 revision involving uranium decay products and 

3 impurities, their ratio to thorium-230 from 

4 raffinate pits.

5 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Were those 

6 addressed in the --

7 MR. HARRISON: No, it's pending a 

8 revision to the internal TBD.

9 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: But the 

10 current TBD does address the raffinate pits 

11 and exposure currently. And what are the 

12 methodologies that we use in it right now is 

13 the question that Stu was asking.

14 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I guess my 

15 concern is that, is there any likelihood that 

16 more information would show up than what you 

17 have already looked at that would answer this 

18 question? And is it worth the time to 

19 continue doing this if you can assure us that 

20 this is not going to be productive? Did you 

21 understand what I was saying? Does that make 
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43 1 sense?

2 MR. HARRISON: No.

3 MS. HARRISON-MAPLES: Not exactly.

4 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Well, I guess I'm 

5 saying, how much more should we be looking. 

6 Can we come to some conclusions now, or are we 

7 going to have to refer this to more looking 

8 through files. I hate to do that.

9 DR. BUCHANAN: This is Ron 

10 Buchanan at SC&A. I would just like to 

11 interject that according to the TBD, our 

12 present TBD for Weldon Springs, that the 

13 environmental dose is determined 95 percent by 

14 an experiment conducted handling some uranium 

15 ore in 1959, I think, one of their peak years.

16 And that only five percent of that 

17 intake of thorium and uranium, given on page 

18 17, I believe it is, of the TBD comes from 

19 environmental samples.

20 And so, you know, we have to 

21 balance what difference would it make if the 
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44 1 pits dried out occasionally and the material 

2 added to the environment as opposed to what 

3 environmental dose would be assigned the way 

4 it is now.

5 And I would also like, this kind 

6 of runs into my talk, but it's relevant for 

7 our conclusions, is that the main reason in my 

8 July 9th paper that we sent out to the Work 

9 Group addressing the drying out of the pits, I 

10 said in there, pits one and two might be 

11 important for environmental reasons if they 

12 dried out.

13 And what we were discussing at 

14 that time was mainly this, was thorium-230 

15 processed from the raffinate to concentrate it 

16 and I guess, you know, for processing 

17 purposes.

18 And also was there any recycled 

19 material in the pits? And so those were the 

20 two main issues with those drying out because 

21 you would loose your ratio of uranium to 
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45 1 thorium.

2 And so, but in my memos that we 

3 have issued, we've concluded, one, is that 

4 they did not recycle the raffinate for 

5 thorium-230 removal, and as we've discussed, 

6 the recycle term did not apply as irradiated 

7 thorium.

8 And so the main issue here is you 

9 have two pits that are the older pits that may 

10 have dried out. And that's the question. If 

11 they didn't dry out, then you don't have to 

12 worry about increasing the thorium to uranium 

13 ratio in the environmental data.

14 But on the other hand, we're using 

15 a hopper experiment in '59 using uranium ore 

16 concentrate which had a five percent, in the 

17 five percent thorium to uranium ratio.

18 And that's where 95 percent of the 

19 data is coming from because it's much larger 

20 than any of the filter samples they got around 

21 the environment.
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46 1 And so I guess, at this point we 

2 have to ask ourself if the pits one and two 

3 did occasionally dry out in the years '57 to 

4 '67, would it add significant to the five 

5 percent of the environmental dose assignment?

6 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Does anyone have 

7 a comment? Bill?

8 MEMBER MELIUS: This is Jim 

9 Melius. I have a comment or a question.

10 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: You're cutting 

11 out. Jim?

12 MEMBER MELIUS: Can you hear me 

13 now?

14 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: That's better.

15 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes. My question 

16 is would Ron's July 9th memo -- in there you 

17 reference a, I believe it's a 1977 NL 

18 operational document regarding, I mean you 

19 quoted, there at least in your summary that 

20 basically they would be trying to keep it, you 

21 know, again I think it just references, 
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47 1 underscores what Stu Hinnefeld was saying is 

2 that at least the intent was always to keep 

3 those moist and that, I think the NLO document 

4 indicates that the nature of the materials in 

5 those pits would help to prevent the drying 

6 out, at least during that earlier period, at 

7 least through NLO's experience through '77. 

8 Is that an accurate summary of that, Ron?

9 DR. BUCHANAN: Yes, that's 

10 correct. That's a statement where it said 

11 that they didn't dry out and the '88 or '85 

12 statement that said they had the potential to 

13 dry out during the hot summertime.

14 So, you know, well, you got ten 

15 years since the closure of the plant when NLO 

16 made that statement and you got another ten 

17 years when they started the remedial action 

18 that they make the other statement.

19 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: And as Ron was 

20 talking about the five percent is, there is an 

21 increase in the amount of environmental 
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48 1 exposure from the raffinate pits. How much 

2 difference will that make? Do you have any 

3 ideas on that?

4 DR. BUCHANAN: This is Ron with 

5 SC&A. No, I don't. See, the issue is that 

6 when you receive the ore concentrate, you 

7 have, say, 95 percent uranium mass and 

8 contamination of normal thorium-230 in with 

9 it.

10 And then that goes through the 

11 process stream. And it's fairly well related, 

12 the ratio remains fairly constant until you 

13 put it out into a pit, it would dry out and 

14 then it would have a different chemistry to 

15 blow around.

16 And so the thorium, I don't know 

17 how you would address how much dose the 

18 thorium to uranium would be in the dust. You 

19 know, like I say as far as my calculations go, 

20 show that the environmental samples make up 

21 about five percent of the total dose assigned 
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49 1 from environmental assignments.

2 So no, I don't have a, you know, 

3 order of magnitude estimate of that. You 

4 know, just my first feeling would be a small 

5 one. If you doubled it or tripled it, it 

6 would be a small amount.

7 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Would it affect 

8 any of those covered to the point that it 

9 would change their status?

10 DR. BUCHANAN: Well, you're saying 

11 that five percent of five percent. You're 

12 assigning five percent thorium of five percent 

13 thorium. And so if you increased that and 

14 assigned it all as thorium, you would only 

15 increase your dose assignment about five 

16 percent.

17 So you know, I would hate to make 

18 a blanket statement, but I would say it would 

19 be down pretty low.

20 MEMBER MELIUS: This is Jim 

21 Melius. It certainly would seem to me it 
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50 1 would be a manageable issue in terms of dose 

2 reconstruction.

3 DR. BUCHANAN: Well, one thing you 

4 do is just assign it all as thorium, assign 

5 your air samples all as thorium and then you 

6 would maximize your dose. Or you could, 

7 depending on the cancer, you could assign it 

8 all as uranium and see what the PoC is and you 

9 could assign it all as thorium and see what 

10 the PoC is because they did air samples using 

11 gross alpha.

12 So if you assign it all as thorium 

13 or if you assign it all as uranium and took 

14 the largest PoC for that particular cancer,

15 then it wouldn't be an SEC issue.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: And Stu Hinnefeld 

17 here. Let's recall, we're looking at the 

18 environmental component of the dose. Now 

19 we're talking about the operational period 

20 when there were, you know, far higher doses 

21 from what we would call the operational doses.
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51 1 The internal doses from the people 

2 working with uranium would almost certainly be 

3 quite a lot higher than the environmental 

4 doses.

5 So you're talking about, you know, 

6 the environmental dose is a relatively small 

7 component of the dose reconstruction during 

8 the operational period.

9 DR. BUCHANAN: And this would only 

10 be for people that weren't bioassayed.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: And this would 

12 only be people who didn't have bioassay.

13 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: And what number 

14 of people, approximately, would that cover?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know how 

16 many it is, but I believe we have bioassay 

17 from the majority of the people from Weldon 

18 Spring.

19 DR. BUCHANAN: I think it ran 

20 about 84 percent. I did a limited 25, I 

21 looked at the operational group. And they had 
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52 1 a consistent bioassay of around 84 percent, 80 

2 to 85 percent.

3 Now I didn't look at the others 

4 such as, you know, people that wouldn't be 

5 expected to be bioassayed, I didn't do a study 

6 on that.

7 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Maybe I can ask

8 the petitioners what their feelings are at 

9 this point and encourage this discussion. 

10 Tina?

11 MS. TRIPLETT: I don't know, 

12 really, what to say. If the potential's 

13 there, the potential's there. I don't know. 

14 You know, they're claiming there's document 

15 that say they didn't and we have several that 

16 state they do. So I don't know what to say.

17 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Karen or Mary?

18 MS. KAREN JOHNSON: I'm kind of in 

19 the same position. From what I gather, really 

20 no matter what, it's probably not going to 

21 affect dose that greatly anyway.
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53 1 MR. HINNEFELD: That would seem to 

2 be the case.

3 MS. KAREN JOHNSON: Okay.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: That would seem to 

5 be the case.

6 MS. KAREN JOHNSON: I don't really 

7 have anything further, then.

8 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Jim, do you have

9 anything further to say about that?

10 MEMBER MELIUS: No, I don't know 

11 if Ron has additional information to present?

12 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Did you, Ron?

13 DR. BUCHANAN: No, I kind of got 

14 into what I was going to present.

15 MEMBER MELIUS: Okay, that's what 

16 I sort of thought, but I wanted to make sure.

17 DR. BUCHANAN: Yes.

18 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Bill, did you 

19 have anything --

20 DR. BUCHANAN: The pits are what 

21 concern, especially if they've gone and 
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54 1 reprocessed thorium-230 or have recycled 

2 thorium. But other than that, I can't really 

3 add additional information since they didn't 

4 do that.

5 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I guess I would 

6 have to ask Jim what do we usually do in a 

7 situation like this? I've not been in a 

8 situation like this before.

9 MEMBER MELIUS: Well, I mean, I 

10 think we would ask NIOSH to see what they can 

11 clarify between now and the meeting next week. 

12 And let's see if there's any significant 

13 additional information or uncertainty that 

14 comes up.

15 But I really am having trouble 

16 seeing how it would affect the SEC 

17 determination.

18 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Me, too. That's 

19 why I'm in a quandary.

20 MEMBER MELIUS: Well, I mean, I 

21 think normally our response would be to, or 
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55 1 approach would be to go ahead. We don't 

2 believe, it doesn't appear to be an SEC issue, 

3 and from this particular issue. And so we 

4 would go ahead and present it.

5 I mean, it's something that at 

6 least needs to be clarified in the sense of 

7 people checking references. But I'm not even 

8 sure that's necessary before next week.

9 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I'm not sure how 

10 much they can do before next week that would 

11 really be helpful to us.

12 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes, well I don't 

13 think it's something that we should delay.

14 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I don't, either.

15 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: So I think we 

17 should proceed with this as if we were going 

18 to go ahead. And Bill Field, as a Board 

19 member, do you have --

20 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, I guess I 

21 agree with Jim. You know, I think the 
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56 1 discussion was very helpful, but I don't see 

2 this as an SEC issue.

3 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: So can we close 

4 this out for the time being and ask NIOSH to 

5 see if they find anything? But assuming, I'm 

6 presuming they don't and we would go ahead as 

7 planned and close this out. Is that what you 

8 would do, Jim?

9 MEMBER MELIUS: Yes.

10 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: If I hear no 

11 objections to that, I guess that will be what 

12 we will do. We'll ask NIOSH, if you do come 

13 up with anything before we present this at the 

14 Board meeting, please get in touch with me or 

15 Bill or Jim and so we'll know about it.

16 But otherwise, I think we would 

17 proceed as if we were going to close this out.

18 MEMBER MELIUS: Okay.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: And we will try to 

20 come up with sort of a coherent position here 

21 about, you know, looking back at the exposure 
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57 1 during that time and, like, Ron was talking

2 about, where they were generated from and try 

3 to put together just a couple coherent 

4 paragraphs about where we think the question 

5 takes us during that period.

6 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: And you'll 

7 provide that to the three Board members?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I will send it to 

9 the Work Group and to Ted and to Ron.

10 MEMBER MELIUS: What I would 

11 suggest, I also think it would be helpful if 

12 you could give a brief update for the Board 

13 meeting next week on these two issues.

14 And then I would suggest the third 

15 issue that be, that it's already been 

16 presented but I think it would be helpful to 

17 have it, you know, remind people of it because 

18 it's something that we've had concerns about 

19 before is the radon issue.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

21 MEMBER MELIUS: So at least that 
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58 1 information's before the Board at the, you 

2 know, time they're considering this because I 

3 think that was sort of the third sort of 

4 outstanding issue that was being --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Right, and that 

6 presentation I gave in Santa Fe.

7 MEMBER MELIUS: Right. And just a 

8 brief update on that would be --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, I'll present 

10 it more briefly.

11 MEMBER MELIUS: And I don't recall 

12 in Santa Fe if there were any sort of leftover 

13 questions or uncertainties, but you might want 

14 to take a quick look at the transcript and see 

15 if there were any questions that might be 

16 helpful to address.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: All right.

18 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Are there any 

19 other comments by anyone on the phone at this 

20 time?

21 MR. KATZ: This is Ted, Dick. I 
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59 1 just wanted to check, so we're going to have 

2 Stu, someone has a phone line open and it's 

3 giving an echo to this. But so Stu is going 

4 to give a presentation on some of these 

5 matters.

6 Do you, Dick, intend to speak for 

7 the Work Group? I assume you do, but I have 

8 you on for saying something. But do you need 

9 help with a presentation, or you think it 

10 would be brief or you don't need slides or 

11 what do you need?

12 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I would like some 

13 help with a presentation, but I think the 

14 presentation should be Stu first. I can 

15 introduce it, and then Stu, and then I can 

16 finalize it.

17 MR. KATZ: Well, what I'm asking, 

18 though, it sounds like Stu is sort of covering 

19 the waterfront. What is it that you want Ron 

20 to help you with?

21 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I'm not sure that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Weldon Spring Work Group, 

has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally identifiable 

information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been reviewed and 

certified by the Chair of the Weldon Spring Work Group for accuracy at this time. The reader 

should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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60 1 Ron needs to do anything. I think I'm 

2 speaking more to Stu and him covering it also.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay, so then you're 

4 saying that you, yourself won't really have a 

5 formal presentation, is that correct?

6 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: That's correct.

7 MR. KATZ: Okay, all right. I 

8 just wanted to be clear about that, thanks.

9 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: I mean, I would 

10 introduce the discussion.

11 MR. KATZ: Understood, understood.

12 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: But that's it. 

13 Are there any other comments, petitioners, one 

14 last time?

15 MS. KAREN JOHNSON: I think I'm 

16 good. This is Karen.

17 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: All right. Tina?

18 MS. TRIPLETT: This is Tina. No, 

19 no questions. Yes, I'm good.

20 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: Okay. I guess 

21 with that, we'll close the meeting unless 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Weldon Spring Work Group, 

has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 552a) and personally identifiable 

information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, however, has not been reviewed and 

certified by the Chair of the Weldon Spring Work Group for accuracy at this time. The reader 

should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject to change. 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

61 1 there's something I'm missing.

2 MR. KATZ: No, I think we're good, 

3 then.

4 CHAIRMAN LEMEN: All right. We'll 

5 see you all next week.

6 MR. KATZ: Yes, and thank you 

7 everyone for your participation.

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

9 matter went off the record at 1:57 p.m.)

10 

11 

12 

13