This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

1 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY

+ + + + +

MONDAY

MAY 2, 2011

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened in the 

Frankfurt Room of the Cincinnati Airport 

Marriott, 2395 Progress Drive, Hebron, 

Kentucky, at 9:00 a.m., Mark Griffon, 

Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

MARK GRIFFON, Chairman

JOSIE BEACH, Member 

JAMES E. LOCKEY, Member

WANDA I. MUNN, Member*

ROBERT W. PRESLEY, Member
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

2 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

ELIZABETH BRACKETT, ORAU Team*

ROBERT BURNS, ORAU Team*

ANDREW EVASKOVICH

JOE FITZGERALD, SC&A

JENNY LIN, HHS

GREG MACIEVIC, DCAS

CHRISTOPHER MILES, ORAU Team

JIM NETON, DCAS

MICHAEL RAFKY, HHS*

KATHY ROBERTSON-DEMERS, SC&A*

MATTHEW SMITH, ORAU Team*

DAN STEMPFLEY, ORAU Team*

DONALD STEWART, ORAU Team*

*Participating via telephone
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

3 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Welcome and roll-call/introductions........ 4 

Work Group Discussion

- ISSUE 1: LANL CAPABILITY TO MONITOR AND 

MEASURE MIXED FISSION AND ACTIVATION

PRODUCTS BY 1976........................... 8 

Break

- ISSUE 2: NIOSH'S ASSUMPTION REGARDING

INTAKE VALUES FOR EXOTIC RADIONUCLIDES 

AT LANL.................................. 108

Lunch

- ISSUE 3: COMPLETENESS AND RELIABILITY OF 

LANL IN-VITRO AND IN-VIVO DATA, AND ADEQUACY 

OF NIOSH COWORKER MODEL (ORAUT-OTIB-0062 AND 

ORAUT-OTIB-0063), POST 1975.............. 180

- ISSUE 4: FEASIBILITY OF DOSE ESTIMATION FOR 

NEUTRON EXPOSURE AT LANL, POST 1975 230

$ PETITIONER ISSUES 1-8 .................. 218
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

4 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:02 a.m.

3 MR. KATZ: So good morning 

4 everybody. This is the Advisory Board on 

5 Radiation and Worker Health, the LANL Work 

6 Group. We will begin with roll call, Board 

7 Members beginning with the Chair, and since we 

8 are dealing with a site, please speak to 

9 conflict of interests too.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mark Griffon, 

11 chairing the LANL Work Group, no conflicts on 

12 LANL.

13 MEMBER LOCKEY: Jim Lockey, Work 

14 Group Member, no conflict.

15 MEMBER PRESLEY: Robert Presley, 

16 Work Group Member, no conflict.

17 MEMBER BEACH: Josie Beach, Work 

18 Group Member, no conflict with LANL.

19 MR. KATZ: And on the line, Board 

20 Members? 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

5 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER MUNN: Wanda Munn, no 

2 conflict.

3 MR. KATZ: Good morning Wanda, 

4 it's early to you.

5 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Wanda, why 

7 aren't you here?

8 MR. KATZ: He's smiling Wanda.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I miss you.

10 MEMBER MUNN: One never knows.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. KATZ: He wants your company, 

13 but okay. And NIOSH-ORAU team, in the room?

14 DR. NETON: Jim Neton, NIOSH, no 

15 conflict.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Greg Macievic, 

17 NIOSH, no conflict.

18 MR. MILES: Chris Miles, ORAU 

19 team, no conflict.

20 MR. KATZ: And NIOSH-ORAU team on 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

6 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the line?

2 MS. BRACKETT: Elizabeth Brackett, 

3 ORAU team, no conflict.

4 MR. BURNS: Bob Burns, ORAU team, 

5 no conflict.

6 MR. SMITH: Matthew Smith, ORAU 

7 team, no conflict.

8 MR. STEMPFLEY: Dan Stempfley, 

9 ORAU team, no conflict.

10 MR. KATZ: Thank you. SC&A team in 

11 the room?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Joe Fitzgerald, 

13 no conflict.

14 MR. KATZ: And SC&A on the line?

15 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Kathy 

16 DeMers, no conflict.

17 MR. KATZ: Good morning Kathy. Any 

18 other SC&A on the line? Okay. Federal 

19 officials or contractors of the Feds in the 

20 room?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

7 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MS. LIN: Jenny Lin, HHS.

2 MR. KATZ: This is Ted Katz by the 

3 way, the Designated Federal Official of the 

4 Advisory Board. And on the line?

5 MR. RAFKY: Michael Rafky, HHS, no 

6 conflict.

7 MR. KATZ: Very good. And last but 

8 not least, members of the public, in the room?

9 MR. EVASKOVICH: Andrew 

10 Evaskovich, LANL petitioner.

11 MR. KATZ: Welcome Andrew. And any 

12 members of the public on the line?

13 (No response.)

14 Good, okay. There's an agenda for 

15 this meeting. It should be on the web and 

16 everybody should have received a copy too. And 

17 Mark? 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, I 

19 wish I new what the agenda -- I think the 

20 agenda is just to go from the matrix right?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

8 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. KATZ: Yes, it is.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

3 MR. KATZ: Just issue by issues.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, yes. And 

5 I am still trying to log in, so I haven't got 

6 the matrix open yet. 

7 But issue 1, yes, I think that is 

8 issue 1 in the matrix as well as I recall.

9 MR. KATZ: Yes.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, good. Okay. 

11 And I think actually this one we have a fairly 

12 substantial update from NIOSH, so maybe I can 

13 just turn it over to NIOSH to discuss issue 1 

14 on the activation products and fission 

15 products, the methodologies.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Okay, what we have 

17 done is the last time we discussed about using 

18 cesium-37 and why you can't use that for the 

19 LAMPF facility and a model for internal dose.

20 So what we have done is to come up 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

9 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 with a model for computing internal dose based 

2 on in vivo readings and coming up with 

3 modifying factors based on air sampling data 

4 and other data in the database, to correct 

5 those numbers to come up with a corrected or 

6 modified internal dose value.

7 And what we have, this is a 

8 relatively long section, and Liz Brackett is 

9 on the phone. For any of the specific details 

10 of it, I'll ask her on that. 

11 But what we have done is looked at 

12 all the in vivo data in the databases that we 

13 have on page 3 of our responses if everybody 

14 has got a copy of this.

15 There's a table of the whole body 

16 counts for the individuals, the total number 

17 of counts and the total number of counts that 

18 were greater than the MDA per the years, and 

19 the radionuclides that are there.

20 We also went to, on page 4, the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

10 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 air sample database and pulled from all these 

2 documents that are listed here in the SRDB, 

3 and you can see there is a full page of those 

4 documents.

5 Out of those documents there was 

6 culled down to a total of 820 air sampling 

7 records and the radionuclides that were 

8 reported are listed there and I won't go 

9 through all those because we could go to 3 

10 o'clock listing all these radionuclides, many 

11 of these very short-lived, or most of them 

12 short-lived radionuclides.

13 And as it states in there that the 

14 most frequently detected radionuclide was 

15 beryllium-7 and it was reported in 500 of 

16 those 820 air samples, and so that is going to 

17 be the indicator radionuclide for a correction 

18 to the body counts, the lung counts.

19 Okay, the list was then reduced 

20 even further and by eliminating some of these 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

11 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 radionuclides and as you see in the report, 

2 that based on a very short half-life, not 

3 affecting the internal dose, that the activity 

4 was less than one percent of the beryllium-7 

5 activity. That was also not included, and 

6 activity detected in less than five percent of 

7 the samples. Those samples were removed.

8 So you end up with a list of 31 

9 radionuclides that are going to be considered, 

10 that are going to be major contributors to the 

11 internal dose.

12 So the ratio of those nuclides, 

13 relative to beryllium-7 were then plotted and 

14 mean and standard deviation were calculated 

15 and the next chart is the dose contribution 

16 from the radionuclides contributing greater 

17 than one percent of the dose and you now are 

18 culling it down to that 27 percent of the dose 

19 contribution comes from mercury-195, 27 

20 percent from mercury-195m, essentially six 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

12 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 percent from mercury-197, mercury-203 is 31 

2 percent contribution, osmium 2.2 and tantalum 

3 1.9 percent.

4 So, then it further culled down to 

5 make sure that you got the greatest 

6 contributors to the organs on page 6 of the 

7 document, that no organs were underestimated 

8 by the elimination of anything that had a 

9 contributing less than one percent of the 

10 total effective dose.

11 So what you have down here is the 

12 radionuclide ratios to the indicator 

13 radionuclide, the ratio, and you see that 

14 mercury-195, the ratio is 1:40; mercury -- and 

15 the further one, the one forty twenty four and 

16 the lowest is the tantalum at a factor of two.

17 So these are the factors that are 

18 going to be applied to the dose for correction 

19 and it's a quick overview, but now I will ask 

20 Joe, because I am sure he has some questions 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

13 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 on that, and also Liz, if you would also join 

2 in on the commentary.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Mark, do you have 

4 anything?

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. I am still 

6 --

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Mike, I guess 

8 one, I think the -- I have less of a question 

9 on the method although others might. I think 

10 you know, given the number of these trace 

11 isotopes, it's you know, coming up with some 

12 kind of approach is probably -- is probably 

13 difficult and this is as good as any I've 

14 seen.

15 But on Table 1-1 on page 3, I 

16 guess my question, since you know, we are 

17 dealing with the time frame of '75 and beyond, 

18 it looks like most of the data starts in '81, 

19 so I am trying to figure out what does that 

20 mean.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

14 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 There doesn't seem to be, other 

2 than for sodium-24 any data that predates '81 

3 and is that literally when you start seeing 

4 some of the whole body counts and the records, 

5 and how would you square that with, you know, 

6 applying this estimation process for the prior 

7 six or seven years? Am I reading that table 

8 right? I am just curious about that.

9 MS. BRACKETT: This is Liz 

10 Brackett. I need to go back and look at this, 

11 but I think that that's - those would be the 

12 years that they first started reporting those 

13 nuclides, not that they were starting body 

14 counts.

15 And I am still looking at the 

16 database. It could be that they just didn't 

17 report -- well, you know how body counts work, 

18 there's a long list of nuclides and sometimes 

19 they only report something that they detect 

20 rather than anything that they looked for.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

15 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 And so looking at these -- the 

2 years, I think it was that's just when started 

3 to consistently indicate things that they 

4 might have looked for but they didn't find 

5 anything.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, I'll tell 

7 you, the reason I am asking is I think this 

8 goes to maybe the root of our concern as far 

9 as this threshold question, which is you know, 

10 even though they -- the whole body counting 

11 technology came to the fore in what, '69/'70, 

12 and they started implementing it, we were 

13 concerned about when the actual detection 

14 protocol and record-keeping came into full15 fledged use, and I think the issue, really, 

16 from our standpoint is probably somewhere 

17 between '75 and '85 where we were trying to 

18 figure out, you know, in fact, was it hit the 

19 ground running in the early '70s, when you did 

20 have not only the technical detection 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

16 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 capability, but you actually had the 

2 implementation use by the lab; or did it sort 

3 of phase in and you really didn't reach that 

4 threshold until the early '80s that you have 

5 reliable data?

6 So that's the reason I am asking 

7 because certainly this has suggested maybe 

8 that you really didn't have a full-fledged 

9 thing until the early '80s. But as you say it 

10 may just be an artefact. But if you can 

11 clarify that.

12 The methodology I think you know, 

13 again, it's a complex issue with this many 

14 trace element isotopes and I think this 

15 approach -- I didn't see anything wrong with 

16 it from a standpoint of simplification and 

17 trying to come up with an answer. But I think 

18 it's the source information that we have 

19 always gone back to and said, you know, can we 

20 be comfortable, can the Board be comfortable 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

17 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 about, you know, when this threshold in vivo, 

2 not just technology, but actual use, came into 

3 being, and I think, just trying to figure out 

4 if that's -- 1970, '75, '80, that's what we 

5 are trying to establish.

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

7 Kathy DeMers. I have a couple of questions on 

8 the air sampling. When I look at your table of 

9 air monitoring data, most of these samples are 

10 for stack samples.

11 Can you point out which of these 

12 are actually workplace air samples and if you 

13 used only stack samples, can you kind of 

14 explain the stack sampling process for LAMPF, 

15 and where the filter occurs in that process?

16 MS. BRACKETT: I believe that 

17 these are stack samples. We didn't feel that 

18 it was necessary to have necessarily a 

19 breathing zone sample because we were looking 

20 at ratios. We weren't looking at the amount of 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

18 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 intake. We were just looking for ratios in 

2 this area. So that's -- and that's -- there 

3 were thousands of these samples available.

4 As far as how they were done, I 

5 would have to defer to Bob Burns. I think he 

6 might know more about that than I do. Sorry to 

7 put you on the spot Bob.

8 MR. BURNS: Well I guess the short 

9 answer is we just -- the summary information 

10 we have provided reflects what we have 

11 available in the Site Research Database. 

12 That's by no means complete as far 

13 as what may still exist at LANL, but it 

14 reflects what we have -- what we could put our 

15 hands on in the near-term.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: And this is Greg 

17 Macievic. I would like to put in the comment 

18 also that you will see in some of the 

19 responses in this that LANL has basically, 

20 since early February, told us that they 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

19 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 weren't going to allow us to come on the site; 

2 because of budgetary problems they didn't 

3 have money to get anyone to work with us to 

4 collect more data samples.

5 So as of February, we had several 

6 things that we were going to the site to try 

7 to take a look at to confirm, but -- at this 

8 point, and they still are saying they do not 

9 have the money to let us -- to come in there 

10 and work with us to look for the samples.

11 So there are going to be some gaps 

12 in here and information like this, which 

13 requires going to the site, we had to rely on 

14 these responses on the SRDB and a thorough 

15 look at documentation that we have because 

16 further documentation couldn't be gotten at 

17 this time.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: What additional 

19 documentation would be sought on this issue?

20 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, on some of 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

20 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 these things we were going to look at -- as 

2 far as operations activities, human resource

3 records, more person placements in different 

4 areas, activities like that associated with 

5 this, and with this, to take a look and see 

6 about more data on specific things, to look in 

7 some of the notebooks that might be present 

8 there, that we haven't looked at --

9 MR. FITZGERALD: At LANL.

10 DR. MACIEVIC: At LANL, that we 

11 hadn't been able to look at before, and go and 

12 look into those to verify some of the points 

13 we are trying to make there, but that process 

14 got stopped and unfortunately we have to drag 

15 that on because of not being able to get to 

16 the site at this point.

17 MEMBER BEACH: At what point will 

18 the funding be available, has that been worked 

19 out?

20 DR. MACIEVIC: That -- Chris was 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

21 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 this like last week with the emails that you 

2 sent me that --

3 MR. MILES: Yes. 

4 DR. MACIEVIC: Or was that -- 

5 MR. MILES: Yes.

6 DR. MACIEVIC: As of last week 

7 they were still working the issue --

8 MR. MILES: I don't think they 

9 know.

10 DR. MACIEVIC: out and they don't 

11 know, so that's their - 

12 MEMBER BEACH: Do they have some 

13 help with that or is that just LANL working it 

14 out?

15 DR. MACIEVIC: LANL also working 

16 with Greg --

17 MEMBER PRESLEY: Lewis.

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Greg Lewis too.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, we are 

20 having a similar question at Pantex. It's --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

22 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the money is being released but it's not clear 

2 how much and when, so it's difficult to plan 

3 with the site.

4 DR. MACIEVIC: Because several of 

5 these activities we had actually set up a 

6 group while the person that you had had for 

7 the lagoon question, they were in the process 

8 of setting up a group that was going to dig 

9 out the files because again, they said the 

10 files were there, and they were going to start 

11 pulling those out but then it got chopped 

12 right in the middle of it and that stopped 

13 dead, so we are still running against that.

14 So what you are seeing in here is 

15 a deeper investigation into the SRDB and what 

16 types of documents, and you will see in here 

17 there are many documents listed that were 

18 reviewed to come up with these numbers.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Now, for this

20 particular approach, I mean, you have switched 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

23 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 from cesium-137 to a new approach and I think, 

2 you know, it's very early but it looks like it 

3 has some merit.

4 But what you are saying is that 

5 it's almost like proof of principle, you have 

6 to go now and establish do you have the 

7 information that would feed a dose estimation 

8 --

9 DR. MACIEVIC: That's right.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Or not and this 

11 is just again, a concept.

12 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, and the --

13 that's why I'm trying to look through my large 

14 files here. But in the last meeting, we also 

15 have on the listing of the quarterly reports, 

16 a summary on there.

17 There are discussions and I want 

18 to find the exact years, but that go back into 

19 the '70s, in those quarterly reports, that 

20 talk about lung counts being taken.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

24 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 So the data is there. It's spoken 

2 of. But it might be that due to the collection 

3 we are seeing this, but that it's not that 

4 that data is not present.

5 So like I said, unfortunately we 

6 are still at this position where, yes, you 

7 haven't been able to pinpoint exactly 

8 everything you wanted yet.

9 MEMBER MUNN: This is Wanda. There 

10 still isn't any indication that you have seen 

11 so far that you are going to find more than 

12 five percent of the sample data as being 

13 indication of activity, right?

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Right I think --

15 right. I don't think you are going to see that 

16 there's -- it's going to stay in the same 

17 proportion as it is now. You will just find 

18 information referring to things occurring, but 

19 you are not going to find, if I understand 

20 what you are saying, you are not going to find 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

25 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 more either people being exposed, or any kind 

2 of -- that the 1980 data and beyond will be 

3 reflective -- that this data is reflective of 

4 what the earlier data is and that's what we 

5 have to show.

6 But I do not think you are going 

7 to see anything out of the proportion that 

8 says something odd was occurring in the '70s 

9 and now in the '80s, this is happening, but 

10 the '70s, there was something else happening, 

11 that these percentages will stay consistent.

12 MEMBER MUNN: And beryllium-7, the 

13 short life of radioactivity in beryllium-7 is 

14 still going to be your key and at the less 

15 than one percent?

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, I believe so. 

17 It should stay the same.

18 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

19 Kathy DeMers. I am just, if you are going to 

20 rely on stack sampling, then it would be nice 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

26 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 to know the exact process that is used in 

2 stack sampling because there may be for 

3 example, at SLAC there were hold-up tanks 

4 where they eliminated some radionuclides 

5 before it got passed through the filter.

6 So just some explanation of how 

7 that is done, where the filter is in the 

8 process, or where the charcoal is in the 

9 process, to make sure that you are collecting 

10 everything that is showing up in the 

11 workplace, unless of course you expect to go 

12 back to LANL and compare the data that you 

13 have with stack sampling to some of the data 

14 you have with workplace air sampling.

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Well if you are 

16 only looking for a, as Liz said, for ratios 

17 and not specifically to doses associated with 

18 the radionuclides, do you really need to go to 

19 pursue that, I mean, because you want to know 

20 in what proportion are you seeing these 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

27 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 radionuclides produced in the stack and you 

2 have that information.

3 But like you said, now if you are 

4 trying to compute a dose on a radionuclide 

5 that has come through but you don't know how 

6 that has gotten to the workplace, just based 

7 solely on that information yes, there would be 

8 a problem.

9 But if what you are trying to say 

10 is well, we are just going to assume that this 

11 is in the same proportion and give that 

12 factor, do you really need to have that 

13 information, because we are just --

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I guess 

15 what I am asking is at what point in your 

16 stack sampling system is the sample that you 

17 are analyzing for these radionuclides taken?

18 DR. NETON: I think Kathy raises a 

19 point that we probably need to go back and 

20 describe in some detail what the process is, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

28 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 because I am not aware of these stack sampling 

2 systems myself, but if there were as you 

3 suggest, hold-up tanks or something to that 

4 effect, then it could influence the ratio of 

5 the materials.

6 MS. BRACKETT: But do you mean 

7 hold-up for decay, for shorter-lived nuclides, 

8 or for actually filtering out some of them?

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, and I 

10 am only talking SLAC you know, they purposely 

11 held it up before they put it into the filter 

12 system and that's to get rid of some of the 

13 very short-lived radionuclides.

14 MS. BRACKETT: Well, I know, I 

15 don't know what the process is but I can tell 

16 you that there were some very short-lived 

17 nuclides that did show up, so short in fact 

18 that they don't even have metabolic models for 

19 them because they don't meet the minimum 10-

20 minute requirement.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

29 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And I guess 

2 if the problem is at the beginning of the 

3 process that you are using to develop your 

4 ratios, then that is fine. 

5 If it's somewhere later in the 

6 process, and some radionuclides get filtered 

7 out of the process, then you need to account 

8 for that and that is the only question I am 

9 asking, is where in the process?

10 DR. NETON: I don't see a problem 

11 with us having -- going back and looking at, 

12 if it helps stack sampling. That shouldn't be 

13 a problem I don't think.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I would 

15 think that the ratios, you are going to have a 

16 range of half lives and with that many 

17 nuclides, you are going to have some that fall 

18 into a spectrum and I agree with Liz, some 

19 will be short life in years, but then there's 

20 going to be some that may be affected by hold-
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

30 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 up.

2 DR. NETON: My gut feeling is it 

3 probably won't make any difference --

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

5 DR. NETON: But certainly we 

6 should go out and describe it.

7 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And I'm 

8 just giving that, you know, SLAC as an 

9 example. It might be totally different at 

10 LAMPF. I just want to know at what point the 

11 sampling is taking place and what's happening 

12 before that.

13 DR. NETON: I got it.

14 MEMBER PRESLEY: This is Bob 

15 Presley. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: It's been a long 

17 time since I have -- this is Wanda -- since 

18 I've looked at the TBD on this site. Do we 

19 have any indication at all in our original 

20 documents and the subsequent additions to them 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

31 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 that we have known hold-up activity for these 

2 samples at LAMPF?

3 DR. NETON: I doubt it Wanda. 

4 That's not something we would probably focus 

5 on in a TBD. We would be more interested in 

6 what was coming out the stack.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I wouldn't have 

8 expected it either but sometimes things still 

9 show up in the basic coverage. Thank you.

10 MEMBER PRESLEY: Bob Presley. One 

11 of the things you might want to do if you are 

12 going to go back in and do a little bit more 

13 looking, is to do a comparison. 

14 If you do find a stack number and 

15 a room number, see if there are any breathing 

16 air samples for that, and that right there 

17 will help validate your stack monitoring.

18 DR. MACIEVIC: I would like to 

19 point out from the last meeting I have my list 

20 of -- from the quarterly reports, and have for 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

32 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 LAMPF in 1975 in the second quarter, that 

2 there were 909 laboratory air samples taken.

3 There were 204 laboratory swipes. 

4 There were 639 LAMPF laboratory alpha and 

5 LAMPF laboratory beta samples taken, and I 

6 only have one whole body count for that, in 

7 1975, for 1977 we have -- let's see -- LAMPF - 

8 if I can get my fingers to work -- whole body 

9 counts, that's site-wide, urine samples, for 

10 some of these I don't have the --

11 Okay, surveys, 31, contamination 

12 survey -- well, I'm going to -- I'll look 

13 through this some more. I don't want to hold 

14 up the meeting on this but there are further 

15 listings of -- by the years for LAMPF, where 

16 there are several air and body counts in the 

17 '70s so that --

18 DR. NETON: Greg, those are 

19 samples that we know were taken but do we have 

20 those in the --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

33 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, no, that's 

2 the trick. That's the problem. That's one of 

3 the things we would have to verify, right.

4 DR. NETON: We need to go back to 

5 the site and get those.

6 DR. MACIEVIC: And verify but yes 

7 according to the quarterly reports there were 

8 numbers of samples being taken in the lab, in 

9 the '70s so --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll put that 

11 as sort of a carryover action. That was an 

12 original but I understand that you didn't have 

13 --

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Right and 

15 definitely - 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that used -

17 - I think that's not a bad idea. It can be 

18 used as part of the stack ratios and - 

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Exactly, the stack 

20 and we can look at the laboratory sample.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

34 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Right.

2 MR. BURNS: This is Bob Burns. We 

3 have examples of workplaces air sampling data 

4 but it tends to be, at last from what I've 

5 seen it's either -- you know it's gross alpha 

6 and gross beta counts. It's not nuclide 

7 specifics. That's one of the reasons we have 

8 relied on the stack data and some of this 

9 other data.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we said if 

11 available you can use it to compare, but it 

12 may not be available. Right, I'm actually 

13 looking on the -- so I have some actions on 

14 that which basically is for NIOSH to you know, 

15 still needs to collect the data which would 

16 support the model and that's what you did, a 

17 question of phase.

18 And although you have indication 

19 on the quarterly reports that the data is 

20 there, you just haven't had the opportunity to 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

35 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 collect it.

2 NIOSH will also investigate the 

3 stack sample system to determine whether the 

4 samples are being used for the ratio 

5 determinations is representative of workplace 

6 exposure as NIOSH will also investigate 

7 whether other workplace samples exist for 

8 comparison.

9 I am going back to the matrix to 

10 help me with issue 1 because I had set up sub11 items a through h I think and I just want to 

12 be thorough here to make sure we don't skip 

13 over something.

14 MEMBER PRESLEY: What is the last 

15 date on the matrix?

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: November third.

17 DR. NETON: Do you have a copy of 

18 the response because it's all coded by the 

19 matrix items.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Yes. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

36 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is it?

2 DR. NETON: Because that was 1a 

3 that we were just talking about, and now 

4 there's a response for 1b.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 1b. Okay, okay.

6 DR. NETON: It was written just to 

7 coincide --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let me make 

9 sure -- okay, yes. Let me make sure I have 

10 that.

11 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

12 Kathy DeMers. Mark, did you intend for your 

13 action item number 2 to include a description 

14 of the stack sampling process?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

16 DR. NETON: I think to the extent 

17 that it demonstrates that it's representative 

18 of the workplace, the ratios that they use 

19 should be representative I think.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes I thought I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

37 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 captured that. This response was on the 

2 documents you put on the O: drive, right?

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes. Everything we 

4 are talking about being here should be in the 

5 O: drive and you have access to it.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Under the five 

7 two documents for Work Group folder.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: I think that's just 

9 -- I think that was -- I emailed this part.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you emailed 

11 it.

12 DR. MACIEVIC: Because I don't 

13 think I put it out on the O: drive.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Because I emailed 

16 it.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I was just 

18 looking through the documents on the O: drive.

19 MEMBER BEACH: Are you talking 

20 about this one here?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

38 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes

2 MR. KATZ: Although we should put 

3 everything on the O: drive too. Because that 

4 allows other Board Members to --

5 MEMBER BEACH: I think I got it on 

6 mine the last time.

7 MR. KATZ: To go to it.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let me open 

9 that up. I think -- so that covers 1a, then, 

10 if we can go on to 1b.

11 DR. NETON: Our response to 1b 

12 refers to our response to 1a.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, we are on 

14 1b now, right? Okay. Yes, my question there is 

15 less with the MAP, the mixed activation 

16 products, but switching to the mixed fission 

17 products, you know, the issue with the mixed 

18 fission products if we recall going back, was 

19 we had some problems with, I guess it was 

20 OTIB-54, and how that would be applied. I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

39 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 think I got that number right. I think it's 

2 54. It's based -- the ratio from the reactors.

3 And I think going back to the last 

4 meeting, we were questioning how that OTIB 

5 could be used for a facility like the 

6 chemical metallurgical building facility, 

7 CMR for example, because once you get away 

8 from reactoring into a non-reactor facility 

9 that is handling the mixed fission products, 

10 the ratios are going to be different.

11 And I think that was pretty much 

12 acknowledged at the table so what we were 

13 hoping to see would be an alternative approach 

14 or an approach beyond OTIB-54 that would apply 

15 to the non-reactor nuclear -- non-reactor, 

16 non-accelerator facilities, for MFPs.

17 And referring to 1a, you know, I 

18 don't think 1a would work obviously, we know 

19 that, and again, I would recognize that you 

20 would probably have to look for you know, some 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

40 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 on-site data or information that would kind of 

2 inform that question.

3 A CMR is sort of my poster child 

4 because if you can -- and CMR is a bad actor 

5 in terms of the source terms involved. If you 

6 can deal with CMR from the mixed fission 

7 product standpoint, then I think that issue 

8 would be a long ways to resolved as well.

9 So that's, to me, 1b, that's the 

10 essence of 1b, is can you come up with, if 

11 it's ratios, if it's some approach that would 

12 work for MFPs beyond the reactors. I think we 

13 felt the OTIB-54 would work for the reactors 

14 but then it wouldn't work beyond that.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Joe, this is Wanda, 

16 what you are saying is that the data that you 

17 get from the stacks releases is not even going 

18 to give you a clue, because of the ratio of 

19 concern, because so many of the activation 

20 products are so short-lived you wouldn't get 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

41 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the effect?

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, no, Wanda 

3 sort of switching from 1a to --

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, we are down in 

5 1b.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Ib, right.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: And the response 

9 in 1b refers back to 1a and I just was making 

10 the point that I think, you know, we know 

11 where the concept is going for mixed 

12 activation products, MAPs, but the other side 

13 of the issue is mixed fission products.

14 And for mixed fission products, 

15 the original proposal was to apply OTIB-54, 

16 and from a ratio standpoint be able to figure 

17 out what the activity levels would be.

18 But the problem with that is that 

19 you have facilities at Los Alamos that were 

20 handling mixed fission products beyond the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

42 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 reactors, and specifically we raised CMR, the 

2 chemical processing facility, and OTIB-54 

3 wouldn't work. Clearly, the ratios would not 

4 be relevant for a non-reactor facility like 

5 CMR.

6 So we are away from mixed 

7 activation products and stack measurements, 

8 but talking more about you know, what would be 

9 an approach to doing dose estimation for mixed 

10 fission products at a facility like CMR, where 

11 OTIB-54 would not necessarily apply, and 

12 again, I think the response, referring back to 

13 1a for mixed activation products, wouldn't be 

14 relevant.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Doesn't quite do it.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Doesn't quite do 

17 it, yes.

18 MEMBER MUNN: I understand that. I 

19 was just trying to get clear in my mind why 

20 the data that we have, with or without OTIB-
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

43 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 54, calls to question whether or not it can be 

2 useful, because of the short-lived nature of 

3 what you are getting with this.

4 I guess I am trying to just square 

5 away in my mind where - 

6 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm not so sure 

7 it's as much short-lived with the mixed 

8 fission products as it is just simply trying 

9 to figure out or trying to square the 

10 available data after '75 and whether there's a 

11 methodology to take that data and come up with 

12 a basis for bounding, you know, the dose 

13 estimations.

14 I -- you know, it may very well be 

15 feasible, but we are just pointing out that 

16 the OTIB that we do have for that purpose 

17 wouldn't work beyond the reactors at Los 

18 Alamos.

19 So I don't know, Greg, what's your 

20 sense on that?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

44 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, I guess 

2 without actually seeing data from -- basically 

3 you've got the three facilities: the reactor; 

4 non-reactor; and then the LAMPF accelerator 

5 and then looking to see what you have got in 

6 each, we know that we are going to wipe out 

7 the -- we are not going to use the cesium for 

8 the accelerator facility so you have got the 

9 two options of reactor/non-reactor using --

10 look at the values from the CMR and see how 

11 close they are to, or can you use what you 

12 have for the reactor facilities for the CMR or 

13 not?

14 And if not, look at the -- how you 

15 would interpret that data, because do you have 

16 data to show -- the thing is, is what -- you 

17 know you have a question on it, but without 

18 having enough data to back it up, I would say 

19 yes, we have to go back, take a look 

20 specifically at the data coming from the CMR 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

45 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 to say that we can or can't use OTIB-54.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, okay, I 

3 felt before you gave me the answer. I think, 

4 you know, if you look at it, mixed activation 

5 products, mixed fission products, I think on 

6 the mixed activation products, I think there's 

7 a pathway there.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: No, that's what I 

9 am saying.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: But separate --

11 take LAMPF off.

12 DR. MACIEVIC: Exactly.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, and just 

14 talk about you know, mixed fission products, 

15 you got the reactors --

16 DR. MACIEVIC: That's right.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: You have a 

18 couple, several facilities that maybe handle 

19 fission products in terms of chemical 

20 management, waste management whatever. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

46 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 OTIB-54 is based on ratios that 

2 would make sense for a reactor, but --

3 DR. MACIEVIC: But you are saying 

4 that's not useable necessarily for that?

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Well yes, just 

6 once you, you know, once you go into a 

7 chemical processing operation, those ratios --

8 and I think this was even written somewhere 

9 and I can't remember exactly where I saw it, 

10 maybe it was in OTIB-54 -- but once you go 

11 into a non-reactor operation where chemically 

12 you mix and do all kinds of things to the 

13 solutions, those ratios wouldn't necessarily 

14 apply. So really --

15 DR. MACIEVIC: And that's the 

16 point, not necessarily apply and we have to 

17 show --

18 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, we are just 

19 down to those facilities where you know, there 

20 might be some question that the ratios in 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

47 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 OTIB-54 would no longer hold and you are going 

2 to, I guess, validate that first, and if it is 

3 clear that, you know, okay, those ratios are 

4 not going to be much you can rely on because 

5 of the nature of the --

6 DR. MACIEVIC: Then you come up 

7 with a model.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Then you have to 

9 come up with an alternative model. Okay.

10 DR. MACIEVIC: Right. I 

11 understand.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: I just said it in a 

14 different language.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: All right, I just 

16 wanted to make sure I -- because I think 

17 really that's what it comes down to on that 

18 one.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, yes. 

20 Exactly. And it's again a proof of the --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

48 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 showing the data to verify one way or the 

2 other.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Am I detecting a 

5 sense that we do not have an existing 

6 procedure relative to the chemical separation 

7 portions of what is done at LANL? 

8 Don't we have other -- I am really 

9 grasping here because it seems to me that I 

10 have seen somewhere something about the type 

11 of activities that we are discussing, but I 

12 don't know what procedures - 

13 DR. MACIEVIC: The TBDs - 

14 MEMBER MUNN: It seems to me, I 

15 guess what I am trying to say I thought that 

16 existed somewhere. I just --

17 DR. MACIEVIC: The TBDs do discuss 

18 it, but I cannot recall right now to exactly 

19 what extent they go into the information. So I 

20 would have to look at that, and that could 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

49 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 also be 

2 MEMBER MUNN: Well all right, I am 

3 beating a dead horse here. I was just trying 

4 to get my own thinking process in line.

5 DR. MACIEVIC: I think we have to 

6 -- if it is answerable, we have to look also 

7 back to the TBDs to see what is discussed 

8 there and look at that issue, and if that is 

9 not sufficient, then get information or 

10 develop a new model based on what we find.

11 MEMBER MUNN: Okay, identify what 

12 the significant players are, their aspect of 

13 what needs to be looked at. All right.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: But definitely a 

15 re-review of what we have to see if it 

16 discussed -- if we had actually talked about 

17 it.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: And just going 

19 back to the origin of this issue, you know, 

20 again the SEC, I think it's 0050 or whatever, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

50 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the one that brings us up to 1975 at Los 

2 Alamos, hinges on the ability to dose 

3 reconstruct against mixed activation and mixed 

4 fission products, and the question is, post5 '75, is there sufficient data and an approach 

6 to use that data to come up with a dose 

7 estimation for the MAPs and MFPs, and I think, 

8 you know, again, these are sort of the central 

9 questions with respect to the threshold of 

10 1975.

11 And of course the cesium-137 

12 question we raised on mixed activation 

13 products, I think we beat that one on 1a, and 

14 this is sort of the twin in 1b which is OTIB15 54, doesn't work beyond reactors, so, and that 

16 is what we are trying to resolve now.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's a good 

18 bottom line summary. So really it's back to 

19 the data is what you are saying, we have to 

20 look at the data from the various facilities 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

51 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 and determine whether or not -- it works or 

2 not.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Well the data is 

4 there.

5 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, look at what 

6 we have got. Does it explain what you are 

7 asking. If it doesn't, then how are we going 

8 to explain it, basically.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, and then 

10 I finally got your document, thank you Ted, so 

11 1c on the matrix referred to 1f anyway, so we 

12 are going to skip 1c. 

13 And issue 1d talks about the 

14 episodic nature of exposures to activation 

15 products and fission products.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Okay, we, for the 

17 issue, there are, let's see, page 7, 8 and 9 

18 are the quarterly reports, and the SRDB 

19 numbers and also larger documents that were 

20 used in gathering information and it actually 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

52 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 goes on to page 10 as well and 11, and there 

2 are a number of documents that were used, and 

3 the periodic health physics summary reports, 

4 they include information on the number of 

5 health physics -- employee health physics 

6 checklist completed, reviews.

7 And in the last meeting we had 

8 also, I gave the examples of what is in those 

9 checklists, and referred it to people in 

10 NOCTS, claimants in NOCTS, reviews and updates 

11 regarding the procedure and implementation, 

12 airborne, effluent data, radiological 

13 occurrences, summary of the monitoring 

14 activities.

15 Page 12, radioactive source 

16 inventory, personnel for whom body counts were 

17 requested, urinalysis requested, the radiation 

18 surveys reformed, then there is a listing of 

19 procedures and go on to describe other 

20 activities for the LAMPF radiological safety 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

53 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 procedures and what was discussed in those 

2 documents.

3 And it goes on to, well let's see, 

4 I am not going to read the whole thing, it 

5 goes on for 14, 15, and down to 16, page 16. 

6 Basically to show that there was 

7 the periodic reports from the LAMPF health 

8 physics group also include summary information 

9 on air sampling activities performed and that 

10 really this is all to show that there was a 

11 coherent system with processes being done, 

12 analysis being done, samples being taken 

13 covering this, internal monitoring, external 

14 monitoring, air monitoring running for the 

15 whole facility.

16 Bob, did you have anything you 

17 want to add to this particular item?

18 MR. BURNS: Well, I think you just 

19 summarized it, but the point was to show that 

20 there was a robust program in place, that they 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

54 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 had a good handle on their nuclide mix and the 

2 variability in their nuclide mix, it certainly 

3 wasn't static, and that they recognized that, 

4 you know, that there were procedures in place, 

5 it's just all the elements of a good radiation 

6 protection program you would want to see were 

7 in place during this time.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Right. And these 

9 are documents also from the '70s and '80s so 

10 it's not like this is restricted to a later 

11 time period after into the '90s or something 

12 like that.

13 So this covers the entire period 

14 of where we are basically hardest hit, which 

15 is the '70s and early '80s, that the questions 

16 come up about the program being robust.

17 MR. MILES: Yes this is Chris 

18 Miles. Another key issue I think here is that 

19 out of this program, they did identify 

20 individuals requiring bioassay, and we did a 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

55 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 check I think somewhere later in here.

2 I think that's an important point 

3 to make, is that they did have a program to 

4 identify individuals that needed specific 

5 bioassay and they did indeed have those 

6 individuals you know, had the bioassays done 

7 on them, so you know, they didn't have OTIB-54 

8 back then, but they did have a process in 

9 place to identify which nuclides they need to 

10 look for and who they need to send for whole 

11 body counts, for what specific nuclides and so 

12 forth, so.

13 MEMBER BEACH: And do you have the 

14 records of those bioassays, the actual data 

15 for the individuals?

16 MR. MILES: I believe we do, don't 

17 we Liz, are you listening here? The question 

18 is do we have those actual bioassay data for--

19 MS. BRACKETT: For specific 

20 people? I mean we have a database with in vivo 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

56 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 results. I'm not - 

2 MR. MILES: Well, I think I have 

3 jumped ahead a little bit, but I will mention, 

4 I think there were like 50 -- 

5 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, the next 

6 issue, 1e actually talks about the checklist 

7 information, Appendix B that I had before we 

8 had the number of NOCTS claimants where we 

9 showed here's what the checklist required for 

10 bioassay, and then we showed that -- and from 

11 their bioassay records, they actually left 

12 those samples.

13 And what we did in this next issue 

14 is to take -- because the question was you 

15 know, does that apply across the board, and 

16 what we did was randomly take 50 people from 

17 those checklists.

18 Now, we only had the checklists 

19 from 1977 and '78 that we had there, so we 

20 took 50 from that -- those sample, random 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

57 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 sample who were not claimants, looked their 

2 data up and the data is there, there are 

3 bioassay samples associated with the checklist 

4 saying they needed to leave bioassay samples.

5 So that basically answers that 

6 question, to say yes, they did use the 

7 checklist, the checklist was implemented, they 

8 did do bioassay sampling based on the 

9 checklist and other activities that went on 

10 from RWPs and things like that.

11 But you do have sampling in the 

12 period that they are saying they need to do 

13 the sampling. So that --

14 MR. MILES: And we do have those 

15 data?

16 DR. MACIEVIC: And those data is 

17 there, yes, and that is in, what do I have --

18 if you look at page 17, the update of Appendix 

19 B is in the Board's folder. The SEC 109 

20 document 5211 Work Group meeting file and that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

58 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 updated folder is in that. It's an Excel 

2 spreadsheet that I put in there that has that 

3 information in there so you can peruse that.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: I am a little 

5 confused about the answer, because I went back 

6 to the transcripts, but just to clarify, you 

7 know, where we were headed with that one. 

8 I think it's a very -- it is sort 

9 of a step even before -- you actually went 

10 further I think to some extent. Sorry. I think 

11 it was a question of, you know, we were sort 

12 of diving into this discussion on MAPs, MFPs, 

13 exotics, and there was a sort of a question 

14 within the Work Group about the -- the 

15 potential exposure pathways. Basically, they 

16 had this episodic nature of exposures 

17 apparently to these various sort of other 

18 nuclides and the question was, can -- and it 

19 was addressed in a general way in the Site 

20 Profile and in the ER, but there wasn't a good 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

59 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 handle on, you know, where -- we are talking 

2 MAPs pretty much, short-lived and not a real 

3 big deal, I think we kind of covered this 

4 anyway on MAPs just at the table today. 

5 MFPs, you know, you had a reactor 

6 maybe and then maybe the CMR, but for mixed 

7 fission products, you know, maybe there's only 

8 one or two bad actors that you have to focus 

9 on and the exposure pathway is pretty clear 

10 for what those might have been.

11 For neptunium, maybe exposure 

12 pathway was confined to a couple of campaigns 

13 in the 1980s or something. But there was a 

14 question at the table at the last meeting, you 

15 know, it's kind of hard to get your arms 

16 around all these dogs and cats as far as this 

17 episodic releases of these things, do they 

18 matter -- and I've heard Wanda say it too --

19 do they matter, which ones do matter in terms 

20 of an exposure pathway that would be 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

60 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 meaningful, just to kind of have that as a 

2 backdrop for this discussion so you know, you 

3 don't have this list of 85 you know, trace 

4 isotopes of which maybe a handful would be 

5 relevant for dose reconstruction, whereas in 

6 MFPs maybe you have a couple that are actually 

7 pretty significant and maybe for the rest of 

8 them, neptunium but it's only on an episodic 

9 campaign by campaign.

10 I think that was the sense because 

11 again on the ER and the Site Profile, it just 

12 really wasn't clear what those exposure 

13 pathways were, how meaningful they were and 

14 just to kind of focus the group.

15 And like I said, I went back, 

16 looked at the transcripts but I know there was 

17 a flow of discussion, that's what I got from 

18 the transcripts, that it was more of a 

19 question of what these potential -- which ones 

20 were from an exposure potential standpoint 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

61 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 particularly relevant for the Board to focus 

2 on, just being able to go through what is a 

3 laundry list of nuclides.

4 MEMBER BEACH: It's also where.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it was 

6 where, it was sort of the what, how much and 

7 where type of -- the usual questions.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: But I think that 

9 was, if I can recall six months ago without --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: That's why I had 

11 transcripts.

12 DR. MACIEVIC: When we were 

13 talking about the checklists and their 

14 capability of capturing things, that was I 

15 thought part of the reason why we went back to 

16 check the checklist, because we had looked and 

17 talked about just claimants that we -- because 

18 on those checklists, they do describe what 

19 kind of samples they are going to take and 

20 there are statements about mixed fission 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

62 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 products and other kinds of things in there 

2 that they are looking at.

3 So that is -- that was the point 

4 to go and say when they worked up checklists 

5 for a particular worker to do something, they 

6 always said they are going to be working with 

7 this type of material and then said whether or 

8 not they needed to do a bioassay or whatever 

9 types of activities they had to do, and ours 

10 was to go back and verify that they actually 

11 did it, it was to show that the program was 

12 complete, that they didn't just go and say 

13 hey, you work with that stuff but -- and then 

14 nothing happens.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Not just a

16 procedure that was never followed.

17 DR. MACIEVIC: That's right, yes, 

18 that they actually implemented it, you got 

19 results back that reflect something they did, 

20 and this 50 was to show that yes, they 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

63 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 actually looked at what the person was going 

2 to be involved in and said well, you are going 

3 to need to do this and this, and then by 

4 showing these results we are saying yes, they 

5 did do what they said they were going to do 

6 and it reflects back that the program was 

7 whole and now we are not saying obviously that 

8 every person had every bioassay for 

9 everything, but that in the bulk, in looking 

10 at these samples, they had a program, the 

11 program had a procedure, the procedure was 

12 carried out, the sampling was done and 

13 reflects back, and that's really what we were 

14 trying to reflect in here with that addition 

15 to the d, which does go to that question, what 

16 was the person exposed to and here they are 

17 saying yes.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: And it goes to 

19 the question but I think that question comes 

20 in, is it 1e, I think 1d, going back to the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

64 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 transcripts, and again, it's five or six 

2 months, but going back to the transcripts, I 

3 think -- and we can obviously check the 

4 transcripts since they are already posted --

5 but I think the discussion on this particular 

6 topic was just simply to get a better 

7 potential exposure characterization for MAPs, 

8 MFPs and exotics, that those categories.

9 And then we went into the 

10 checklist, which resulted in another action, 

11 which was to do some comparisons which is, I 

12 think, 1e.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, but we do 

14 then talk about, I think it's further on one 

15 of the questions is going to be about the 

16 discussions of the exotics and we start 

17 talking about where you located the areas that 

18 exotics were involved in.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, I'm just 

20 trying to clarify, that, you know, I was 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

65 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 confused on this too, and went back to the 

2 transcripts to try and figure out, you know, 

3 because I know your response was in a 

4 different direction and I think that clarified 

5 for me what the Work Group was discussing at 

6 the time and it then went to checklist.

7 And we can go back and validate 

8 that but I think at the time it was more of a 

9 question of trying to get a handle of these 

10 various components of this sort of proving and 

11 knowing that --

12 MEMBER MUNN: And what's really 

13 significant.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Well what's 

15 significant -- and where -- it's information, 

16 sort of backdrop information that you would 

17 typically get in a TBD, but I think the Site 

18 Profile was a little bit more general and it 

19 was kind of hard to know that information, or 

20 get some handle on it.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

66 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 I mean I think just in the 

2 discussions we have had, I think we are 

3 beginning to map that out, but I think the - 

4 DR. MACIEVIC: But the Work Group 

5 --

6 MR. FITZGERALD: I want to use the 

7 word road map.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: issue is NIOSH do 

9 analysis, linking the checklist -- but 

10 whatever was said, the actual summary that we 

11 came up with was -- and these aren't my words 

12 -- they are NIOSH do analysis linking 

13 checklist information as in Appendix B to the 

14 LANL dosimetry data to determine to what 

15 extent the data that is available to NIOSH 

16 will post to the access database with LANL in 

17 vivo and in vitro data on the O: drive and is 

18 what we did. We got that posted. We did go 

19 back to those checklists and do it.

20 And now I agree that maybe we 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

67 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 should make -- 

2 (Simultaneous speaking.)

3 DR. MACIEVIC: That that was for 

4 1e and I think we need to --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But d is on --

6 d, which is --

7 DR. MACIEVIC: Oh, you get, well 

8 yes, we -- because that flowed -- the question 

9 flowed into from d into e.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes we don't have 

11 to, you know, sort of -- I mean if the Work 

12 Group wants to -- we, you know, this is -- if 

13 this is useful perspective, quite apart from 

14 trying to define or go back to the transcript 

15 and try to figure out what was actually said, 

16 this is useful information. The Work Group 

17 could make that request again, I mean, it's --

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Sure.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Again, I think 

20 it's more of an extension of the TBD to give 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

68 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 it a little bit more granularity on this whole 

2 area, then they all use MFPs and you know, 

3 what's important? 

4 Well, I think it's easy, talking 

5 in these -- looking at these isotopes and 

6 everything, you can sort of lose sight of, you 

7 know, in the end, some exposure potential, you 

8 know, what are worried about and can we kind 

9 of have that as a backdrop before we got into, 

10 you know, diving in on MFPs for example at CMR 

11 and I am worried about two or three particular 

12 nuclides, then that would make it a little 

13 easier to look at the issue.

14 DR. NETON: I'm not sure that's 

15 possible, though, I mean that's the problem at 

16 Los Alamos, isn't it, that there is sort of a 

17 periodic table of potential exposure.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: I think that is 

19 why we raised it.

20 DR. NETON: Well, right, exactly, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

69 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 and that's why this response I think speaks to 

2 the fact that they had a fairly robust 

3 monitoring program where they identified the 

4 hazards on a case by case basis, and at least 

5 if they followed all these procedures that are 

6 listed here, these people were pretty well 

7 monitored.

8 And then, so do we have -- the 

9 question then, is did they do the monitoring 

10 if they, you know, did they identify the 

11 hazards properly, were people properly 

12 monitored, and do we have the data?

13 And if you can show that, then I 

14 don't know if this sort of bending and saying 

15 well there's only two or three little areas 

16 that are important is really going to work 

17 here, because you are always going to have 

18 that question in the back of your mind, well 

19 there was some special experiment with osmium 

20 whatever, or I'm not sure that --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

70 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I'll defer 

2 to Work Group because again I think, for the 

3 transcripts, that's where the question 

4 originally came from in 1d, but you know, if 

5 that's fine then we can let it go.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I think 

7 when I wrote, looking at the way I wrote that 

8 summary, episodic nature is also in there. 

9 The episodic nature of the 

10 exposure, I think what I was getting at was 

11 sort of what Jim was saying, that you know 

12 that there's not routine monitoring for all 

13 these nuclides over time, so we wanted to 

14 know, did they establish something to catch 

15 the significant ones at the time, and did they 

16 follow up on it on, right?

17 DR. NETON: And I think if you 

18 look through all the laundry list of 

19 procedures and reports and stuff it looks like 

20 they did.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

71 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: And they by going 

2 with the Appendix B, with the bioassay 

3 followup, that just adds on that for them, to 

4 cover the program the way you are saying in 

5 that if you have some episodic nature, they 

6 went in with a checklist to describe what this 

7 worker is going to be working with, and the 

8 types of facilities, and that would be one of 

9 the key documents to say what do you need to 

10 do, and if you have that procedure, you have 

11 bioassay to back that procedure up, to say 

12 they were doing it, I think it is. I think it 

13 completes a loop.

14 And we do talk about -- I mean, 

15 further on, we start getting into the 

16 actinium, curium, protactinium and all that, 

17 there's further discussion about these exotics 

18 and that in further questions here.

19 And it's not all in one piece that 

20 you know, is answered by that one question. By 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

72 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 looking through several of these, you will see 

2 that many of these radionuclides that you are 

3 talking about were -- at least they were under 

4 consideration, knew they existed, 

5 documentation talks about well, we'll get onto 

6 that in a couple of, one or two down I think 

7 we will get into issue 2, and there's a 

8 discussion about the exotics and how that was 

9 handled in each different facility, and which 

10 goes to that point too, where were these 

11 things, what kind of nature -- would you take 

12 that information knowing where the activity 

13 was occurring, and then have people involved 

14 with checklists to carry out the procedure to 

15 the workplace. That starts to show that there 

16 is a robust program, to me at least.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess the 

18 other question for me would be, you know, if, 

19 as Jim was describing, if you have that kind 

20 of system in place, then you come up with a, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

73 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 you know, you have -- for certain individuals 

2 you may have bioassay for certain nuclides, 

3 but then do you extend that, do you say okay, 

4 I have other workers in that same area, same 

5 time period, they don't have bioassay for that 

6 nuclide, do I apply some sort of coworker 

7 model for that exposure or do I assume it was 

8 all task based kind of a, you know, that -- I 

9 guess that's a question for --

10 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, here that was 

11 one of the things we wanted to take a look at 

12 by going to the facility, and then I picked 

13 several of the workers out from these 

14 checklists that I was going to go specifically 

15 through what their activities, if I can find 

16 what the activities were, to link them to 

17 particular sites and different activities, so 

18 that now you would be able to say not only 

19 bioassay, but if you have got service 

20 personnel, pipe fitters and all that as well 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

74 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 as the scientists and other people, how, to 

2 try to see how were the individuals treated 

3 and are they all covered in the checklist as 

4 well?

5 And that would have been something 

6 you've got to go to the actual work site to 

7 try to dig deeper into their personnel records 

8 and to put them in places that match what is 

9 on these sheets, and at that point that is 

10 where the hole is that sits, because it would 

11 be nice to have -- that would have solidified 

12 it even further, to say I know these five 

13 different Work Groups that go from the people 

14 that are being discussed in the SEC to the 

15 people who are you know, the support services 

16 versus the chem operators and all the others, 

17 and see how they were all treated in a 

18 particular situation, so that you can see they 

19 all are covered or not.

20 MEMBER BEACH: So you are saying 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

75 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 you didn't close that loop and it was back to 

2 the funding, that funding issue?

3 DR. MACIEVIC: That part didn't --

4 yes, that's right, that's --

5 MEMBER BEACH: Because that's part 

6 of data adequacy we always have SC&A followup 

7 on and we haven't done that yet either, have 

8 we, in this case?

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Not, probably 

10 because they haven't got the data.

11 MEMBER BEACH: You haven't got the 

12 data, so that's just something that is still 

13 hanging that we --

14 DR. MACIEVIC: That is a hole that 

15 has to be patched, yes.

16 MEMBER BEACH: Because all the 

17 procedures in place, I mean, I work in a 

18 nuclear facility and we have lots of 

19 procedure, but that doesn't always mean it's 

20 done.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

76 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Exactly.

2 MEMBER BEACH: You need the proof.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Exactly.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I haven't 

5 looked that closely at these, you know, you 

6 gave a lot of documents, I'm not sure SC&A has 

7 time to go through all of this.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I mean - 

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The next step -

10 - 

11 DR. MACIEVIC: Right and it would 

12 be nice to be able to -- and the next is to 

13 place the end of the types of the Work Groups 

14 with their data back to the procedure and show 

15 that the whole thing fits together and it was 

16 all covered.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I'm 

18 not sure how things were done at LANL but I 

19 know in some circumstances like this, you 

20 might have a job where a health physicist 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

77 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 makes the decision to bioassay two people out 

2 of the eight that were doing -- you know, 

3 assuming they were the worst case, you know, 

4 and then the question becomes, well what do 

5 you do with these other six if they are 

6 claimants, you know, do you -- yes, so that's 

7 the question you have to follow up on, right?

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Exactly, because 

9 that would -- I think that would get to answer 

10 several of these questions.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I think 

12 the next action might be for SC&A to look at 

13 what you have provided on this to see if they 

14 think at least from the one standpoint that 

15 it's -- you know, is there sufficient data 

16 there to demonstrate that they indeed, that 

17 they identified the most significant exposures 

18 of interest in this time period and had a 

19 monitoring program in place, and in e, that it 

20 was carried through in the sampling right, I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

78 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 guess is the two parts of that.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: I guess going 

3 back to Josie's question, it's whether you 

4 actually have the data or not yet, I mean it 

5 sounds like we have progress reports, we have 

6 the in vitro, in vivo but --

7 MR. MILES: Well I think for those 

8 50 individuals, don't we have the data?

9 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, 50 

10 individuals, that's actually their bioassay. 

11 That comes from randomly picked 50 from a 

12 couple of years I guess, '77, '78, and for 

13 those 50 years that followed through -- or 50 

14 individuals, there are bioassay data.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes but I guess 

16 tracking down to that --

17 MR. MILES: So the data does exist 

18 but I think it seems like, to me the question 

19 is was their whole program effective in that 

20 it identified all the individuals that really 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

79 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 should have had bioassay for --

2 MR. FITZGERALD: MAPs, MFPs, 

3 exotics.

4 MR. MILES: Right.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: You know, my 

6 concern on this of course is that -- I scanned 

7 the checklist and this is getting into 1e to 

8 some extent, but clearly if the checklist 

9 points to plutonium at Los Alamos, you'd get 

10 bioassay.

11 So if I see 50 checklisted items 

12 for plutonium, I would expect to find 50 for 

13 50 in terms of bioassay. Now, if a portion of 

14 those actually were driven by exotics, that 

15 would help answer the question that we are 

16 trying to answer on this whole arena of 

17 exotics. 

18 You know, validating -- I don't 

19 think we have been debating plutonium, you 

20 know, validating that doesn't do much for us.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

80 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. MILES: No, but we've got a 

2 table here that lists the number of LAMPF 

3 individuals that were identified and all the 

4 various radionuclides that were assayed for, 

5 so I mean they -- whether those individuals 

6 were put on a checklist, maybe we don't know 

7 that, but --

8 MR. FITZGERALD: But do you see 

9 why I'm going at it? In terms of the 

10 validation I think that you are asking for, 

11 what we would need to establish is the linkage 

12 between the checklist for this body of 

13 nuclides that we are talking about --

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, exactly.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, that does 

16 get into e a little bit, right you are getting 

17 -- but I guess the point is maybe a truly 

18 random sample might not be the way to go. You 

19 might want a more biased sample --

20 DR. MACIEVIC: Exactly, you'd have 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

81 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 to go to --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You'd focus on 

3 the exotics and the others --

4 DR. MACIEVIC: Those exotics and 

5 look at people who are working with specific 

6 things that you want to see go to it, but also 

7 if part of the thing is is our checklists are 

8 from '77/'78, so you are with the people that 

9 were only checklisted at that period, right?

10 We'd have to get other checklists, 

11 to search through those, to get the kind of 

12 information that you want to see, because this 

13 is just for the two-year period there that you 

14 have.

15 MEMBER PRESLEY: This is Bob 

16 Presley. Did they not have a random sampling 

17 program early on?

18 DR. MACIEVIC: I don't think it 

19 was random sampling. They had specific groups 

20 of people that they targeted and also health 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

82 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 physics --

2 MEMBER PRESLEY: Did they not have 

3 a random sampling program?

4 DR. NETON: By early on how early, 

5 in the '70s?

6 MEMBER PRESLEY: In the '70s?

7 DR. NETON: I wouldn't say that 

8 based on the procedure list that I look 

9 through here. They are pretty specific. RWP10 driven. You could have both. Well maybe you 

11 had both. I don't see any evidence in those 

12 procedure lists of a random --

13 DR. MACIEVIC: No, they usually --

14 the discussion such as handling procedures in 

15 laying off who gets bioassays specifically 

16 targeted to how they want to go, it's not --

17 they don't just pull here and there and say 

18 well, let's do some of the guards to make sure 

19 they are being covered.

20 MEMBER PRESLEY: Well I know they 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

83 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 did the specific. I would be really surprised 

2 if Los Alamos didn't have a random sampling 

3 program also.

4 DR. MACIEVIC: It's not stated in 

5 any place obvious that we have seen so far, so 

6 they may have done it on you know, a periodic 

7 basis for their own purpose, but there's 

8 nothing, you know, stating this is how you 

9 will do a random program.

10 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

11 Kathy DeMers. Are we moving on to 1e?

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we are 

13 kind of just mixing it's 1d and e, yes. 

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I have a 

15 couple of questions on these checklists.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sure.

17 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay, first 

18 of all NIOSH, you have created Appendix B, and 

19 it seems to me like it is broken down into 

20 four subsets in the spreadsheet.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

84 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 One is the personal identifier. 

2 The second is the bioassay schedule, and if I 

3 look at a particular spreadsheet or a 

4 particular checklist, there's a box which 

5 talks about initial urinalysis kit issued and 

6 routine kits to be issued.

7 Is that what you are calling the 

8 bioassay schedule?

9 MEMBER PRESLEY: Yes. 

10 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay, then 

11 you have something called isotopic exposures, 

12 then there's a box on the checklist that is 

13 called radioactive materials to be handled or 

14 sources of radiation exposure.

15 Is that what you are calling 

16 isotopic exposure?

17 DR. MACIEVIC: I don't have a copy 

18 of my table right here, but what -- the files 

19 that are in there, are not everything that are 

20 on a checklist. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

85 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Those groups that are picked out 

2 are the radionuclides on the left of the chart 

3 that would say these are the things that would 

4 be required based on the checklist, and then 

5 on the far right are the bioassays to whether 

6 a sample was given or not for that particular 

7 request.

8 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And the 

9 bioassay samples 77 through 78, that is coming 

10 from the in vivo database?

11 DR. MACIEVIC: That --

12 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Or in vitro 

13 database, I'm sorry?

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, that's coming 

15 from the in vitro database, and -- well, the -

16 - well yes they are all in the in vitro 

17 database but the original report from last 

18 meeting was taken from the NOCTS database, 

19 because those were only claimants on the first 

20 one, the Appendix B of the last meeting for 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

86 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

November 3rd 1 . 

2 So that data, we looked in the 

3 NOCTS database for the claimants who were on 

4 the checklist and looked to see the bioassay 

5 that they got based on what the checklist said 

6 they should have, and that was on the list.

7 And now this second one, are 50 

8 random samples and those are taken from the in 

9 vitro database and matched up against these 

10 random people to say these are the samples 

11 they are supposed to get the right end, these 

12 are the samples that they got from the 

13 database.

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay, now I 

15 am going to switch to the actual employee 

16 health physics checklist for questions, okay? 

17 You have a section in there on personal data, 

18 which includes, there's the E number, your job 

19 title, your work location, okay, and other 

20 things.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

87 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 You have another section which 

2 says basically did you receive previous 

3 exposure at a site other than LANL. And that 

4 is just a yes or no question.

5 You have another section which 

6 says radioactive material to be handled or 

7 sources of radiation exposure. That includes 

8 from the internal standpoint, uranium, 

9 plutonium, tritium, fission products, induced 

10 activity and others.

11 And then there's some external 

12 boxes okay? Then you have two boxes which are 

13 sitting side by side. The first box talks 

14 about whether you got a visitor film badge or 

15 that you require a permanent film badge, the 

16 film badge evaluation method, has something 

17 called N film to be reviewed, which I am 

18 assuming is neutron film to be read okay?

19 Whether you were issued a PNAD, 

20 whether you were issued finger rings. Towards 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

88 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the bottom it says -- it has an area for chest 

2 count and whole body count and then of course, 

3 respirator fit and HP indoctrination.

4 Now from the internal standpoint, 

5 what piques my interest is of course the chest 

6 count and the whole body count. Okay, next to 

7 that box is another box which says should an 

8 initial urinalysis count be issued?

9 And then under that it says 

10 routine kits to be issued. It lists the types, 

11 and the frequencies. Under type it's 

12 plutonium, uranium-235, uranium natural or 

13 238, tritium, gamma spec., and other.

14 And then in some of these lists, 

15 it will give a frequency because if you are on 

16 a plutonium bioassay, it might give one year.

17 Many, many, many of these 

18 checklists are filled out with NR, which is 

19 not required in that box, okay? My concern is 

20 that I am seeing radionuclides to be handled 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

89 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 marked but no requirement for bioassay on this 

2 checklist.

3 The other thing I'm seeing is that 

4 they mark neutrons, yet they indicate that the 

5 N film does not have to be read. It seems to 

6 me that a lot of these checklists are 

7 incomplete, too and that it is highly 

8 dependent upon who is filling them out.

9 So this is not giving me a good 

10 feeling that we can rely on these checklists. 

11 DR. MACIEVIC: The data -- what we 

12 were looking for on there, and the data that 

13 was put in, is in regarding to the in vitro 

14 data associated with the sampling for the 

15 different people.

16 There are several activities on 

17 there which were put in to show these are the 

18 titles that are on the board but we did not 

19 enter all data for every particular activity 

20 because our specific thing was here for the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

90 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 bioassay requirements.

2 So what I would have to do is go 

3 back to the checklists and have -- because the 

4 person that was doing the form, there's lots 

5 and lots of data to cull out of this -- the 

6 databases.

7 So we were specifically targeting 

8 to look at the bioassay, so if you are not 

9 seeing something that's on there or it's not 

10 recorded, you also have to look -- see this is 

11 where you would then have to go back and find 

12 out whether or not a bioassay would be 

13 required for the type of work they were doing 

14 with that radionuclide, because not every 

15 radionuclide is going to be a bioassay hazard.

16 So you are not -- to use the 

17 checklist for that, I would now have to go 

18 back and do modifications to the checklist to 

19 get you more, but the whole point was to be 

20 bioassay required was bioassay there, for that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

91 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 particular year, particular person.

2 And all that other data in there 

3 is not -- not -- wasn't key to the question I 

4 was trying to answer.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And it wasn't 

6 what you were tasked with by the Work Group 

7 anyway but it does, I mean, what Kathy is 

8 raising, may raise questions about the -- 

9 DR. MACIEVIC: And exactly.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Program 

11 adequacy.

12 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: May raise 

14 questions.

15 DR. MACIEVIC: But the point was 

16 to show that these are all the questions that 

17 are on these bioassay checklists, what we were 

18 specifically looking at the bioassay data to 

19 see.

20 And you are going to of course, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

92 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 you're going to see there's not a lot of 

2 things that are going to go to the exotics, 

3 because that's the whole reason we are in 

4 where we are, is because the exotics were not 

5 something that you are going to see a lot of 

6 activity where there was a large bioassay 

7 program to cover all these different things, 

8 that they did have them periodically but 

9 taking 50 random samples is not going to show 

10 you -- as we said, we are going to have to do, 

11 instead of a random test, you have got to go 

12 back specifically to particular things based 

13 on Work Groups that we get data from where 

14 these people were and see how the bioassay 

15 goes with the checklist, to how they left the 

16 samples and how an exotic was handled from a 

17 checklist for a worker working in a particular 

18 area, and that is that piece that has to be 

19 filled in more.

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I think it 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

93 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 would be helpful for, in Appendix B, if you 

2 told us you know there's four major areas in 

3 that spreadsheet. If you told us exactly where 

4 from the checklist you are pulling that data, 

5 and in the case of the bioassay sample, you 

6 know, where you are pulling that data.

7 But in addition to that, on the 

8 checklist there's chest counts and whole body 

9 counts and it would also be helpful to add 

10 those two items to your Appendix B.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: In other words 

12 if it's a chest count and body count required, 

13 then follow up on that to see that it was 

14 done, is that what you are saying?

15 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Right.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: You got to remember 

17 though, when you are looking at this -- those 

18 titles, are everything possible that could be 

19 requested, if there's -- where we would put 

20 that is if there's an x on their whole body 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

94 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 count to have, but not just because you know 

2 it was on the checklist. So yes, I agree.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I guess what 

4 troubles me still, you know, going back to the 

5 origin of this issue, there is little data, 

6 bioassay data. We do have some data points 

7 coming out of the in vivo program but it's not 

8 clear that there's enough of that data.

9 And I think what you were 

10 suggesting as I recall from the very 

11 beginning, was let's see is there was a 

12 mechanism for the checklist that would 

13 indicate that the program was conscious of 

14 these so-called mixed activation, mixed 

15 fission products and exotics, and would be in 

16 fact demonstrably calling for a bioassay.

17 But it still doesn't get to the 

18 issue of how adequate is the data, do we have 

19 the data, and can you use the data? I mean

20 this is sort of a surrogate saying the program 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

95 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 was up and running, because there was some 

2 question, you know, even though there was in 

3 vivo technology in '70, was the program up and 

4 running, did you find procedures that actually 

5 were driving bioassays for these elements?

6 And when I look at the random 

7 sampling, the first question I have is I'm not 

8 sure what that is going to answer, because 

9 what you are really looking at is were they 

10 demonstrably trying to bioassay against these 

11 nuclides or not, upstream.

12 Now downstream, we still have 

13 questions and I think what we are trying to do 

14 is go upstream and see if they were actually 

15 looking for and requesting bioassays.

16 But that still doesn't obviate the 

17 issue that I think we still have some 

18 questions as to whether or not we see a 

19 difference in the data post '75 for these 

20 isotopes, which were the reason for the SEC 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

96 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 being given pre-'75.

2 So we are trying to figure out 

3 what changed and you know, we get sort of 

4 tangled into the checklist, I am a little 

5 concerned that we are losing sight of the 

6 original issue, which is you know, is the data 

7 adequate, can you use it?

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, the 

9 checklists to me are a key thing to going with 

10 this, but the checklist is what the person is 

11 using and the health physics person is 

12 supposed to be using to analyze what a job is, 

13 and what kind of activities they are going to 

14 be working under.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Who is the 

16 person?

17 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, the health 

18 physics, the technicians and other people, 

19 though either the supervisors or - 

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Because I'm 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

97 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 concerned about that too, I mean if we are 

2 talking about health physics checklists filled 

3 out by rad tech or HPs that's one issue. 

4 But if this is a checklist for 

5 programmatic people, then I could see some, 

6 you know, they are not going to be familiar 

7 enough, perhaps, to be able to fill that out.

8 I am just trying to figure out how 

9 much weight, and this is part of the question 

10 I think we have been grappling with, how much 

11 weight to give the checklist, that are 

12 reliable enough as a surrogate in a way, a 

13 program surrogate, for the bioassay that you 

14 feel like the program was there or not.

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, it's going to 

16 have to be somebody intimately familiar with 

17 the job, because you are not going to give 

18 some high-level person who has never been in 

19 the facility -- these are associated with the 

20 health physics organization, and as you see in 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

98 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the quarterly report, they talk about the 

2 number of health physics checklists that have 

3 been given out by health physics.

4 So this would be the health 

5 physics technician level, someone in the job 

6 associated with it, and I think we actually 

7 have that in here, one of the comments further 

8 on in one of the answers to this question 

9 where there is a specific procedural training 

10 on health physics checklists and then 

11 implementing those things in the field.

12 So it's not a high-level thing, 

13 because yes, I would agree, if it's a -- you 

14 know, someone who is in charge of the 

15 facility, writing the procedure for it, having 

16 worked at Fernald, I know how that can work 

17 because the higher levels can sometimes think 

18 that there are no hazards in the workplace.

19 But you are talking a lower level 

20 of activity here with the health physics 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

99 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 technicians in the field as to a person coming 

2 in, what they are going to be assigned.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, but I want 

4 to make sure, though, that we don't lose 

5 perspective of what is driving the issue. What 

6 is driving the issue is a question on the 

7 adequacy and completeness of the records for 

8 MFPs, MAPs, exotics, post-'75, that period 

9 right after '75, you know, supposedly new 

10 technology, the in vivo counters are up and 

11 running, supposedly it's being implemented in 

12 the radiation protection program and the 

13 rigorous ways that we are identifying these 

14 and they are being bioassayed.

15 However, I think there's some 

16 question about that, which is the reason we 

17 are here, and the checklist has been raised as 

18 an upstream means and a rad protection program 

19 that suggests that the program was up and 

20 running when these things were being 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

100 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 identified.

2 I think, when we get into 

3 checklists, it's going to come down to 

4 questions of reliability: were they in fact 

5 being used in a way that would give you in 

6 fact a confidence that the program was driving 

7 these bioassays, and certainly the second 

8 thing in my mind is just scanning checklist 

9 data; the information so far, it's pretty 

10 clear that plutonium was a driver, that's no 

11 surprise. But I think we are going to have to, 

12 you know, in addition to looking at the 

13 random, I think you kind of agree that we are 

14 going to have to look at whether or not in 

15 fact the exotics and what have you were 

16 drivers -- beyond the reliability, whether 

17 they were drivers that get you to bioassay --

18 DR. MACIEVIC: But remember what 

19 we also said about what we were deploying to -

20 - what we are saying why this SEC is that yes, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

101 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 plutonium is a driver and we are showing that 

2 by the monitoring of plutonium and the 

3 activities involved with alpha activity and 

4 working with that, that that is also going to 

5 be sufficient to -- that other radionuclides 

6 would be swept up into the net by the fact 

7 that they are doing the monitoring for the 

8 plutonium and have a rigorous program there.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: That would answer 

10 a question as to whether or not the plutonium 

11 bioassays were sweeping up the exotics. It 

12 wouldn't answer the question whether or not 

13 the exotics on their own were being driven by 

14 the checklist.

15 In other words, you know, I would 

16 like to see a checklist at LAMPF that says you 

17 know, these people need to go over and have 

18 the whole body counting done for these kinds 

19 of activities at LAMPF. 

20 Maybe the guy was doing target 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

102 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 changeouts or something, or maintenance on the 

2 target, you know, they need to get counted. In 

3 1976, they needed to be sent over, and be 

4 counted.

5 That would give me assurance that 

6 the checklist in that program was driving 

7 bioassays for the nuclides of interest that we 

8 have.

9 If I get 50 for 50, you know, 

10 validation that the plutonium drivers were 

11 giving you bioassays, and oh, by the way, we 

12 are picking up a couple of counts over here 

13 for you know, whatever, I would say well, 

14 okay, that means, you know, they have the 

15 capability of seeing these other things. It 

16 doesn't tell me that they are actually looking 

17 for them.

18 So that's the concern I have, 

19 beyond the reliability, that they have 

20 questions that I think Kathy has raised as 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

103 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 well, is whether the checklist -- we are not 

2 talking RWPs, we are talking checklists, okay, 

3 so this is -- you know, I have, you know, I 

4 have some questions on that. But beyond that,

5 I don't know if we really understand whether 

6 these are drivers or not, and in the end, we 

7 are going to get down to you know, is the data 

8 sufficient or not and you know, the program 

9 reliability questions, the robustness of the 

10 program, is a useful backdrop for that 

11 question, but it doesn't supplant that issue 

12 that needs to be answered from the SEC.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, and I think 

14 unfortunately, with LANL not giving us -- I 

15 think we could have put to rest several of 

16 these questions, had we been able to go in and 

17 get what I wanted to get.

18 If you start giving specific --

19 too specific tasks, that you could associate 

20 with the facility, with the task, with the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

104 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 people, back to the checklist, and show it all 

2 working in there. Right now, there are three 

3 out of the five that you have, and we are 

4 inferring that the other are there and we need 

5 to fill the hole completely --

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, it sounds 

7 like we agree. All right.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: -- and I think that 

9 kind of thing would be, yes, we would have to

10 show.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, that 

12 sounds like the action item. I think you 

13 summarized -- I rolled together d and e in 

14 that discussion and I just summarized the 

15 action, so --

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Have the transcript 

17 also attached to this so you don't --

18 MR. FITZGERALD: I was --

19 definitely had to go back and figure out where 

20 we came out on that one.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

105 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I appreciate 

2 Joe going back to the transcript.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: It was six months 

4 ago, so --

5 MEMBER MUNN: And so Mark, for 

6 those of you who were not able to quite 

7 follow, did we get the right people putting 

8 together the right questions, and have we, or 

9 have we not opportunity to ever prove that the 

10 appropriate people were monitored, for the 

11 appropriate thing at the appropriate time?

12 Would you please review for us 

13 what your action item now is going to be out 

14 of that?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I'm going 

16 to review that --

17 MEMBER MUNN: What can you prove?

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm going to 

19 review after we take a break, because I want 

20 to get on the spot with Joe and Greg and look 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

106 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 at my words and I will review it after we take 

2 a break.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Well we only have 

4 two subsets from - 

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think where 

6 we stand is everything is going to the 

7 Procedures Subcommittee. No, just kidding.

8 MEMBER MUNN: I have a one-word 

9 answer for that.

10 (Laughter.)

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let's take a --

12 let me offer a 10-minute break right now, and, 

13 Wanda, I'll come back and summarize the 

14 actions for those two, for d and e, because I 

15 want to make sure I go over it with these guys 

16 first before we go around in circles again.

17 MEMBER BEACH: And make sure we 

18 didn't lose anything out of these. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, so 

20 take a 10-minute and we will come back to you, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

107 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Wanda.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you.

3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

4 matter went off the record at 10:35 a.m. and 

5 resumed at 10:48 a.m.)

6 MR. KATZ: We're reconvening after 

7 a short break. This is the LANL Work Group.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, 

9 Wanda, after some deliberation we did decide 

10 to send it to your Subcommittee.

11 MEMBER MUNN: You're in deep --

12 (Laughter.)

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, just to 

14 summarize for d and e, the action items going 

15 forward, and they are a little wordy but we 

16 want it to be clear, so that when we look back 

17 at this in several months we'll know what we 

18 meant.

19 For item d, I have: SC&A will 

20 review materials that NIOSH compiled to 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

108 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 determine whether program in place was 

2 effective in identifying significant hazards 

3 in individuals who needed bioassay, 

4 parentheses, (for non-accelerator, non-reactor 

5 MAP, MFP, exotics.)

6 And then for item e, this is a 

7 longer one: NIOSH will do biased sampling of 

8 checklist, parentheses, (driven by exotics, 

9 MAP and MFP,) and determine whether 

10 individuals identified to receive bioassay 

11 samples actually had bioassay samples taken.

12 NIOSH will also determine whether 

13 all workers associated with these project14 driven bioassay sampling efforts did receive 

15 bioassay, and if not, determine an approach 

16 for assigning the dose.

17 And NIOSH will also review the 

18 checklist to determine if workers were 

19 designated for bioassay, exotics, MAP, MFP, 

20 when a significant internal hazard existed, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

109 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 parentheses, (based on location and hazard 

2 type identified in other cells in the 

3 checklist).

4 That was the -- the last part was 

5 the question that Kathy was getting at when 

6 you had a hazard checked off on the checklist 

7 but they ended up not bioassaying and was 

8 there a good reason for that, or was it, you 

9 know?

10 So I think that covers everything. 

11 Did you capture that, Wanda?

12 MEMBER MUNN: Not really, I 

13 followed it but I didn't capture it. If -- I 

14 am assuming we are going to have an addition 

15 to the matrix --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I --

17 MEMBER MUNN: -- before very long 

18 anyway, so -- 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll send it 

20 out right at the end of the meeting. I'll send 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

110 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 out an updated matrix so we have it.

2 MEMBER MUNN: That's great. All 

3 right. Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. All 

5 right, then I think we are ready to go on to 

6 item f. Yes, 1f. We are still on issue 1. 

7 That's all right. We always pick up our pace.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: That one was 

9 ours. This was the issue of the memorandum 

10 that we circulated in an earlier Work Group 

11 meeting that spoke to a Los Alamos area office 

12 audit that was done, I believe it was 2001.

13 And it raised questions about --

14 LANL in vivo program was found to be deficient 

15 in that it had not maintained its reference 

16 library for various LAMPF radionuclides as 

17 well as thorium-232.

18 And we had a discussion about, you 

19 know, the implications of that and whether 

20 that would be sort of a significant issue that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

111 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 would inform this deliberation.

2 And I think the action was to go 

3 back and see if we could shed some light on 

4 exactly you know, what the basis for the audit 

5 finding had been, and what the kind of 

6 response to it there was, and in general, just 

7 was it significant, does it speak to the 

8 capability of the program itself to monitor 

9 for the exotics and what have you.

10 We checked back with -- this is 

11 always a wonderful process -- we checked back 

12 with the area office and the lab, and tracked 

13 down -- it turned out the author had left the 

14 site and could not be found and we did find 

15 the supervisor, who signed off on it, and I 

16 personally made two or three phone calls. 

17 None of them were returned, so I guess I would 

18 report that we could not find any first-hand 

19 accounts about what this was all about. 

20 Now, we have not gone back to the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

112 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 lab, who obviously would have to respond to 

2 the finding, to see, you know, if there's some 

3 information in the file. 

4 This is fairly recent, so this is 

5 not like digging historic stuff, I mean, just 

6 going back and talking to the internal 

7 dosimetry program and finding out, you know, 

8 in their records, you know, what this meant, 

9 and shed some perspective on it.

10 So we haven't done that part of 

11 it, and we certainly could do that but that is 

12 going to require, you know, going back to the 

13 lab, and going through the same hoops that 

14 Greg has been talking about.

15 So I would just offer, that's 

16 where we came out on that action but to do any 

17 more, we would probably have to do research --

18 or not research really -- inquiry with the 

19 laboratory HP program on this.

20 I will leave it up to the Work 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

113 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Group, if you want to pursue this memorandum 

2 and its implications or not.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Why should you be 

4 exempt from being abused?

5 (Laughter.)

6 MEMBER MUNN: Have we determined 

7 what are and are not significant radionuclides 

8 already? And if we have done that, then why 

9 continue on this particular route?

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, this one 

11 was, I think, relevant because the area office 

12 was dinging the lab for not maintaining its 

13 reference library and, in particular, for the 

14 nuclides at LAMPF.

15 And the discussion we had about 

16 that was, you know, I think there was people 

17 at the table who said well, you know, not 

18 having your reference library up to date, not 

19 having this in your system for a facility, 

20 would not preclude you from seeing these 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

114 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 isotopes anyway.

2 But then there was this question, 

3 well, is this a -- was this a recurring issue

4 and did this affect, you know, the readings 

5 that they would have done for facilities like 

6 LAMPF or not?

7 And this is sort of a basic 

8 question and I think it would have been 

9 settled pretty quickly if we could have talked 

10 to any of the principals on that audit.

11 But we couldn't locate them, and 

12 so I will just bring that back, that we had 

13 found on data capture this memorandum, this 

14 audit, this finding, and we can pursue it 

15 further or not. I mean, I think it's just a 

16 question for the Work Group.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Did they have a 

18 time period in this thing?

19 MR. FITZGERALD: It was 2001 --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 2001.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

115 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. FITZGERALD: -- that the audit 

2 was done and that the deficiency -- it was not 

3 just the LAMPF source terms, there was also 

4 thorium-232, so --

5 MEMBER MUNN: So essentially your, 

6 SC&A's, primary concern focuses around the 

7 thorium, right?

8 MR. FITZGERALD: No, actually as 

9 much the LAMPF, because obviously LAMPF was a 

10 big player in terms of your in vivo counting, 

11 so not to have the LAMPF source terms in your 

12 reference library sort of struck us as being 

13 unusual, to say the least.

14 And I guess the -- Wanda, the 

15 question kind of revolves around, you know, 

16 how significant is this, and would it have 

17 impaired the counting program at all?

18 And I think we probably can, you 

19 know, I mean, put this up, we could probably 

20 do a conference call with the internal 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

116 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 dosimetry program with some advance notice and 

2 just do it that way.

3 I just don't see extending the 

4 resources, going after this thing, unless we

5 can do it in a very cost-effective way, and 

6 maybe that -- 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think that's 

8 the cure.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Nor do I.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 

11 was going to ask next, was what's the extent?

12 MEMBER MUNN: If it's possible to 

13 do a conference call to resolve the basic 

14 question you have, then --

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, and I would 

16 like to participate, and we just would find 

17 out. I mean, I just want to -- it's sort of a 

18 loose end and it's kind of bothersome to have 

19 an audit finding as late in the game as 2001 

20 on something like that.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

117 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 It may not even be significant 

2 after we discuss it with the internal 

3 dosimetry program at LANL.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So SC&A and 

5 NIOSH will set up the conference call --

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, we will take 

7 it --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- with the 

9 internal dosimetry group --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: We will take the 

11 action to run it through the DOE and make 

12 arrangements with the right people to be on 

13 the other end of the line and give them 

14 advance notice so that they can dig up what 

15 they did with the audit. We'll take that next 

16 step.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Sounds simple 

18 enough.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: It won't be.

20 (Laughter.)
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

118 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER MUNN: It sounds simple 

2 enough. We all know what "sound" means.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sounds real 

4 simple, yes.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: That was like my 

6 making the phone calls.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, choosing the 

8 right detergent, yes.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, item g. 

10 MR. FITZGERALD: I think that was 

11 satisfied.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that was 

13 closed. Yes. 

14 MR. FITZGERALD: I think NIOSH 

15 went ahead and posted that information.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then we are 

17 on to issue number 2. Look at that.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Excellent.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Progress. Okay, 

20 so 2, issue 2, number 1, this is focused on 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

119 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the exotic --

2 MEMBER MUNN: -- by location.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Right. 

4 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, our basic 

5 response to this question is we went through 

6 and the different documents to show where 

7 these LANL -- the exotic items are mentioned, 

8 and different references to that, and there 

9 are also a narrative that discusses each one 

10 of these activities, the point being that if 

11 you look at the time periods that are 

12 involved, you have got '43 to '50, '46, '45 to 

13 '72, '45 to '72, 1952.

14 On page 19, '59 -- I am just 

15 taking these randomly through here. '52 to 

16 '68, '67 to '72, early '90s, '65 to '72, where 

17 you are discussing all these radionuclides 

18 that we are calling exotic.

19 But there is a specific -- there 

20 are specific programs and activities and 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

120 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 knowing that they were working with these 

2 particular materials in these particular 

3 areas.

4 So that is the point of that, and 

5 then the descriptions on the next pages, from 

6 pages, what do we have, 20 through twenty --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I guess the 

8 other takeaway from that table is that not 

9 many of them fall into this time period, 

10 right?

11 DR. MACIEVIC: Right. A lot of 

12 this work was done -- yes. Well, the 

13 descriptions talk about it and when they ended 

14 and things like that, so this is not -- this 

15 again backs up what we are trying to say is 

16 that these exotics exist but they are not 

17 existing in any kind of quantity that would 

18 have been requiring a full-time bioassay 

19 program or other sampling for it, that their 

20 monitoring efforts, there's a document that I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

121 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 will -- in one of the other questions that I 

2 will refer to, where they were doing 

3 monitoring and the air monitoring limit for 

4 the plutonium and the curium are the same 

5 number.

6 So they were monitoring to the 

7 same level for both of those radionuclides, 

8 and it's a 1950-something document. When we 

9 get there, I will point it out.

10 But the fact that they were --

11 newly had the problem but their air monitoring 

12 is requiring the same air level in this, that 

13 they were monitoring -- basically, by keeping 

14 control of plutonium, you are also keeping 

15 control of the curium, if it is curium, I will 

16 have to look at the sheet when you get there.

17 But they are controlling to that 

18 particular number and these are not in the 

19 descriptions, which I am not going to go 

20 through for the sake of time, but these 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

122 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 descriptions all talk about when the programs 

2 were evolved, what they did in what buildings, 

3 different time values, so you can read through 

4 them when we go through neptunium, thorium and 

5 yes. It goes down through page 25, so pages 20 

6 through 25 do the description of these 

7 different radionuclides they were calling 

8 exotic, and how they were handled, where they 

9 were handled and the people involved.

10 So this is a knowledge of them 

11 and, to me, that speaks to the program knowing 

12 where their problems were, and dealing with 

13 them.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, I guess we 

15 would like a little clarification, because I 

16 think there's some inconsistencies that we are 

17 trying to, I guess, understand and kind of 

18 harmonize.

19 If you go back to the Evaluation 

20 Report for the prior petition, which is 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

123 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 SEC-51, and that ER notes for thorium, 

2 actinium, curium, neptunium and protactinium -

3 - 

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Protactinium.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, that's a 

6 tough one -- that and this is -- I'll use a 

7 quote because I want to make sure that I got 

8 it straight -- "there are numerous references 

9 in site documentation regarding the use of 

10 these radionuclides as well as the apparent 

11 absence or unsuccessful development of a 

12 bioassay program. These references began in 

13 the early 1950s and remained a concern through 

14 the early 1990s."

15 And beyond that, the Tiger Team 

16 report, '91, elaborates on a particular issue 

17 that they felt strongly about, the team did, 

18 in terms of thorium-232 and its decay 

19 products. This was in building SM-66, with 

20 workers that were unaware of radiological 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

124 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 hazards and with no bioassay being made 

2 available despite handling gram quantities of 

3 dispersible thorium oxide powders.

4 MR. MILES: Gram quantities?

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Of dispersible 

6 thorium oxide powders. That's right from the 

7 Tiger Team report. And that was in the '89 

8 time frame, '89, '90 time frame that that was 

9 identified. 

10 In addition to that, and I am just 

11 trying to get a handle on two things really. I 

12 think, from the table that you presented, what 

13 you just said, that from a time frame 

14 standpoint you see most of the exotics 

15 figuring in this pre-'75 time frame.

16 But I am seeing exceptions, 

17 certainly that observation, what was said in 

18 the previous ER, and also, we have done some 

19 data capture, some of this is classified for 

20 some of these other source terms, whether it's 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

125 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 neptunium or thorium or whatever, and they 

2 certainly fall in the '80s and '90s.

3 So from a time frame standpoint, I 

4 guess I am not clear how one can make the 

5 conclusion that it's pretty much weighted in 

6 that early days. 

7 I think there's actually some 

8 evidence that it figured -- some of this 

9 figured in campaigns and processes in the '80s 

10 and '90s.

11 And in terms of facilities, 

12 obviously these occurred in different 

13 locations at Los Alamos as well. And there 

14 isn't any monitoring data for these particular 

15 sources and these operations.

16 So they may have known about the 

17 activity, but they certainly didn't bioassay 

18 for it. And that is, of course, I think that's 

19 the biggest concern we have at this point, 

20 that there were certain operations that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

126 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 clearly took place, we have the time frames, 

2 we have the operations identified.

3 They didn't do bioassay, in fact 

4 they got dinged for it in a snapshot audit the 

5 Tiger Team did in '89, and you know that is 

6 kind of what I am trying to get to as far as 

7 this overarching question, you know, did they 

8 know where the source terms were, did any of 

9 them fall after '75 in a meaningful or 

10 significant way, and did they actually conduct 

11 bioassay?

12 And I think there's some real 

13 question on that, so I'm not quite clear, you 

14 know, where you'd come up with the bottom line 

15 on this thing. 

16 I look at the table as well, that 

17 the dates, it's suggestive of this thing being 

18 pretty much a 1940s to early 1970s issue, but 

19 I think the four or five instances -- or even 

20 more actually -- that we have identified, fall 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

127 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 well into the '80s and '90s as well.

2 We do have CMR identified as early 

3 '90s, but most of these are not much beyond 

4 '72, so I think the table -- I have some 

5 questions whether the table is complete from a 

6 time frame standpoint as well as an 

7 operational facility standpoint.

8 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

9 Kathy DeMers. I echo Joe's concern as far as 

10 completeness, and let me just give you one 

11 example. Can you guys hear me?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay. You 

14 don't have polonium present at Los Alamos, you 

15 know, in 2007/2008, but you do have bioassay 

16 for it. So it -- you know, that kind of made 

17 me wonder, okay, are we missing some stuff in 

18 this table? Are we missing even polonium prior 

19 to '07? 

20 You know, I know you have gone 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

128 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 through what you have. Is there -- are there 

2 other documents that need to be reviewed?

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Or even going 

4 back to the basis for the 050 Petition ER, 

5 which seems to indicate that it was recognized 

6 that the sources continued well into the '90s, 

7 is I think what was in there.

8 So it's a little bit of a --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But this thing 

10 is a little vague too. It says -- it's talking 

11 about all exotics and then neptunium on their 

12 table does extend into the '90s.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I'm just 

14 trying to -- 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Certainly. 

16 Right.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm just trying 

18 to, you know, I think the sense from the table 

19 and the discussion is that this was mostly a 

20 pre-early '70s --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

129 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, that is not -

2 - was not the intent, to say that this is a 

3 pre-'75 activity, that they don't exist, and 

4 we know they do exist and there's 

5 documentation that talks about the activities 

6 with actinium later on, that talks about it.

7 And it's a function of how much 

8 you are talking about. These are many major 

9 campaigns that were defined in the documents 

10 using these types of materials, but we are not 

11 -- we're not inferring that these things 

12 disappear after 1975.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Because I would 

14 say you had major campaigns after '75, you 

15 know, a proportion, but nonetheless there were 

16 some major sources, some of which I think 

17 would entail a classified review because again 

18 some of the campaigns I think are -- there's 

19 documentation but it's secure documentation.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Some of it was 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

130 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 picked up, with respect especially to thorium, 

2 some of it was picked up in a commentary in 

3 the written dialogue that follows, but I was a 

4 little surprised, Joe, to hear you say 

5 protactinium because I didn't see that.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, that was --

7 again, I just sort of read from the previous 

8 Evaluation Report of Los Alamos, yes.

9 MEMBER MUNN: From the Tiger Team, 

10 yes.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I was actually 

12 going to ask if there was any -- if we could 

13 at least come out of this, are there some that 

14 we could drop --

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- because they 

17 were earlier campaigns, you know, and then 

18 maybe pursue the others as well.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I was going 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

131 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 to offer up as a first one polonium, but after 

2 Kathy's statement I am not sure that's the 

3 likely agenda --

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I was ready 

5 to do the same, and then I thought, well, 

6 okay, I guess that's a little bit of a 

7 question on that one, but that was an early 

8 weapons component.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. I 

10 thought it would have lined up with the early, 

11 you know --

12 MR. FITZGERALD: So I guess 

13 there's an asterisk on polonium. I do have a 

14 listing if we want to go through that, would 

15 that be helpful?

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: All right. Except 

18 for Kathy's comment, I was ready to say 

19 polonium looked pretty good. So I guess I'll 

20 take that back.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

132 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 So I guess we sort of had that 

2 question on polonium but, in general, it was 

3 an early weapons component, so I would have 

4 expected most of the exposure before '75. 

5 Actinium-227, I am just going to 

6 go through the listing because this follows 

7 your table. Actinium-227, what I have is: 

8 NIOSH needs to clarify the basis of its 

9 conclusion that potential exposure was limited 

10 to TA-21 and TA-54 prior to '72, given 

11 statements in the SEC-00051 Evaluation Report.

12 And just trying to make sure that 

13 the information for actinium would limit it in 

14 terms of the operational sense before '72, and 

15 I guess the reason I hedge is because with CMR 

16 and some of the other facilities handling and 

17 chemical processing, I am not really sure you 

18 can make that statement without doing some 

19 more field capture of data, because Los Alamos 

20 is complicated and I think the resources that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

133 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the -- even though the operational phase may 

2 have been pre-'75, I think it was at the plant 

3 or at the lab still.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So can you 

5 summarize that in a quick -- actinium-227 --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I would say 

7 review as part of site, what would you call 

8 that, returning to the site for field data. I 

9 mean, if you are going to look at CMR I think 

10 you could also look at whether actinium, as an 

11 operational phase as well as a chemical 

12 processing phase, was over and done with by 

13 '75. I mean, I think that should be something 

14 that can be answered.

15 Because what confuses me is when I 

16 am going back to the basis for the ER up to 

17 '75, it seems to leave it kind of vague and 

18 open, as you were saying, Mark, and I don't 

19 have a warm and fuzzy that you can limit it to 

20 -- you cite TA-21 and TA-54 as being the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

134 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 locations where actinium would have been 

2 handled, but I think it would have been 

3 broader in that task.

4 MEMBER BEACH: That was my next 

5 question is, do we agree with the areas in the 

6 buildings?

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, I just 

8 don't have a good feeling or basis for saying 

9 it was limited to that. Now, we haven't done 

10 data capture of CMR either but I would say as 

11 part of going back, that might be something to 

12 settle out pretty quick for that.

13 Is that enough for -- berkelium, I 

14 agree that it's more likely to be bench scale 

15 and not a plausible exposure potential, that's 

16 kind of what I wrote down.

17 If anyone has any other 

18 viewpoints, Kathy or anyone else, but that's 

19 kind of my take on berkelium. 

20 MEMBER MUNN: Not likely that it 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

135 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 would be anything other than bench top, is it?

2 MR. FITZGERALD: No, that's kind 

3 of what my conclusion would be on that one. 

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, Where are you 

5 going to get it?

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, right. 

7 Californium-252, on that one in the table you 

8 could identify potential exposure hazard but 

9 you didn't really cite location or time 

10 periods. I wasn't sure if that was something 

11 you were going to fill in?

12 DR. MACIEVIC: Californium-252?

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: A particular 

15 building as opposed to the area? I don't think 

16 we were able to find much about it.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: It just says 

18 unclear what it was used for, however 

19 procedures indicate it was a potential hazard. 

20 No details have been found. It was probably 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

136 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 processed in '48-1, this is on the narrative 

2 description.

3 What makes this kind of 

4 interesting, scanning the checklist, I saw one 

5 the few exotics that were cited was 

6 californium which I was actually surprised to 

7 see show up. Somebody thought it should be 

8 listed as a checklist item.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Well, it's pretty 

10 unusual.

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I wouldn't 

12 expect to see that on the checklist, but 

13 certainly in one instance that showed up.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Unless they were 

15 doing some kind of calibration with it or 

16 something.

17 (Simultaneous speaking.)

18 MR. MILES: -- neutron source.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know, it 

20 was just kind of odd, so I don't --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

137 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, Joe, you 

2 skipped curium and americium. Is there a 

3 reason?

4 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I must have 

5 had it out of order.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Are you going--

7 MR. FITZGERALD: I must have had 

8 it in a different order, I'm sorry. I thought 

9 I had it in order but I don't.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I am just 

11 looking back at the --

12 MR. FITZGERALD: You know, I was 

13 going through the narrative list, not the 

14 table list, that's why.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Curium comes 

17 after californium in the narrative.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, go 

19 ahead, I am sorry. So for californium, what --

20 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I'm just 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

138 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 saying, I'm just going with what's -- what 

2 Greg and company have cited in the narrative, 

3 which is it looks like it was a hazard, but 

4 there's not really any information on it, and 

5 I am just adding that -- in looking at the 

6 checklist, it actually showed up, so who 

7 knows? Plus, like with Wanda, I am a little 

8 surprised that, you know, I'm not quite sure 

9 what the application would have been.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

11 MR. MILES: Well, they did a lot of 

12 neutron dosimetry research and that's a common 

13 source for neutrons.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, maybe.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, that's why I 

16 said maybe.

17 MR. MILES: Maybe they were making 

18 sources or --

19 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. As a source 

20 term.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

139 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, I mean, is 

2 there a further follow-up on californium?

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Certainly, like I 

4 said, there's -- it's up to the Work Group, 

5 but I don't have anything more to add than 

6 what Greg has put in as a narrative, that it 

7 looks like it was a potential hazard, but 

8 there's not a clear idea of why and where.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Well, and no 

10 indication of it actually having been used, so 

11 that's --

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it showed up on 

13 the checklist, so it was being used, but it's 

14 just not clear why and how. I'm not sure it's 

15 going to be that significant.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, had to have 

17 been expensive.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So are 

19 you into --

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, curium, what 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

140 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 I -- I just wrote some notes down. NIOSH cites 

2 exposure pathways of significance only prior 

3 to 1972. 

4 And I was trying to square that 

5 again with the SEC-00051 Evaluation Report, 

6 because again that was cited as amongst the 

7 group that might have been an issue up through 

8 the '90s.

9 What records exist for curium are 

10 incomplete in all cases. The only qualitative 

11 measurements are without actual dates and 

12 worker identities.

13 NIOSH's conclusion is: given that 

14 no information has been found to confirm use 

15 or handling of curium at LANL other than 

16 activities related to actinide chemistry or at 

17 the medical laboratory, and since the one-time 

18 release is noted as occurring prior to '67, 

19 the only source term of concern would be in 

20 the burial ground.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

141 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER MUNN: Less than one curie.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm not sure 

3 about one curie.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Well, that's what it 

5 says in the table. 

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Wanda, it 

7 says greater than one curie.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, it does? Other 

9 radionuclides listed at greater than one.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Greater than or 

11 equal to one curie.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Do I read that to 

13 mean that it is included in other nuclides 

14 listed at greater than one curie?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I'm not 

16 sure --

17 MEMBER MUNN: That's all right. 

18 Neglect that question.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: That's referring to 

20 the other ones, that parenthesis, not to 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

142 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 curie.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: I guess this 

3 seems to fall in that category that there 

4 isn't a whole lot of information on how it was 

5 used at the lab. I guess I wouldn't be 

6 comfortable, and again this is just without 

7 any data capture of our own, concluding that 

8 the only curium issue post-'75 would be in the 

9 burial ground. I think, and the Work Group 

10 can look at this, but I would like to pin it 

11 down a little better as far as any handling of 

12 curium including CMR post-'75, because I don't 

13 think one can just consign it to the burial 

14 ground without a little bit more information 

15 on this.

16 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

17 Kathy DeMers. I kind of want to insert 

18 something here. I can't say much about this, 

19 but there is another radionuclide of curium 

20 that was handled at LANL, I believe in the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

143 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 '80s. Also, this project included americium 

2 and neptunium and I would highly recommend 

3 that NIOSH look at a document that is now at 

4 DOE headquarters called Alternative Nuclear 

5 Material, and that will give you some general, 

6 additional information.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: So this sort of 

8 goes to focusing on post-'75 for sources that 

9 were clearly at the lab, both on a classified 

10 data capture as well as a --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. Go 

12 ahead down your list Joe.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Americium, I 

14 would agree that the in vivo records exist and 

15 the coworker model could be constructed so I 

16 don't think americium is an issue.

17 And neptunium, I think NIOSH 

18 observes an exposure potential for neptunium 

19 can be found at LANL operations into the '90s, 

20 however, no new field data was found to 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

144 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 support dose reconstruction. You know, what's 

2 being proposed is again the substitute nuclide 

3 approach using plutonium.

4 I guess, you know, we went through 

5 the substitute nuclide issue at the last 

6 meeting, but beyond that question of applying 

7 a substitute, I think our biggest concern with 

8 the substitute was the -- whether or not one 

9 could normalize against the location, time 

10 periods and the workers that would be 

11 involved.

12 And what I would suggest on this 

13 one is similar to what Kathy was suggesting, 

14 is consult with Sam Glover on the source term 

15 issue at LANL that we can't discuss but I 

16 would do that.

17 And I would also look at some of 

18 the documentation in Germantown that deals 

19 with that activity. So --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is for 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

145 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 neptunium?

2 MR. FITZGERALD: For neptunium, 

3 yes, and leave it at that. But I think you 

4 know, there's some source term issues beyond 

5 '75 that I think ought to be addressed, that 

6 whether or not one can calibrate against the 

7 workers, the time frames, the facilities, that 

8 would even enable you to apply a substitute 

9 like plutonium. I think that would be the 

10 first thing that would be useful to do before 

11 we get into that discussion.

12 But I think for neptunium, there's 

13 an acknowledgment that the operations went 

14 into the '90s. I think now the question is, 

15 can you calibrate against exact operations and 

16 significance of those operations?

17 The next one is thorium and I 

18 would just start with the DOE audit finding on 

19 the thorium oxide exposure issue for those 

20 workers that were not bioassayed. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

146 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 And this had been going on for 

2 some time, so that's, you know, I don't know 

3 what they did and whether they went 

4 retrospective. It certainly raises some 

5 questions about, you know, a missing dose for 

6 at least the workers involved in that 

7 particular operation, and I would think, given 

8 the specifics of the Tiger Team audit finding, 

9 that should be -- there should be a pretty 

10 good paper trail.

11 But I would start there for 

12 thorium as far as that issue. The other thing 

13 --

14 MR. MILES: But they did measure, 

15 there was a very low quantity, I mean --

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, but I am 

17 just saying that --

18 MR. MILES: -- gram quantity if 

19 you are talking about tenths of --

20 MR. FITZGERALD: But I think the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

147 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 question they were raising was the form of it 

2 and whether or not -- what the workers' 

3 exposure might have been and whether or not --

4 so my question is for thorium, if they weren't 

5 bioassaying in 1990 for that kind of a source 

6 term I'd be concerned about other operations.

7 Another operation that we found 

8 actually during data capture for Hanford, was 

9 Hanford was shipping large amounts of thorium 

10 scrap to Los Alamos, and I can give you the --

11 this was in the 1980s for evaluation.

12 And you need to look at the SRDB, 

13 and here's the number, 066599, and that's 

14 again a Hanford documentation, but --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 0665 --

16 MR. FITZGERALD: 066599 and that 

17 speaks to this contaminated material that 

18 contained thorium. I think we just want to 

19 just pin down exactly how the lab handled 

20 thorium and if bioassay wasn't being done, at 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

148 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 least in one case that was audited, can we at 

2 least ascertain what the sources were post-'75 

3 and whether similarly or unsimilarly, bioassay 

4 was being done and if there's any way to 

5 address that from a dose estimation 

6 standpoint.

7 My guess, in the instance we just 

8 talked about, I think they went back and 

9 probably assigned something. I'm not positive 

10 but -- and it may not have been very much, but 

11 in terms of the other thorium exposures, I 

12 would want to know, at least in this one SRDB, 

13 could they address that as well?

14 So that would be our take on 

15 thorium but I think there are some source 

16 terms that are clearly identified in the '80s 

17 and perhaps '90s, mostly the '80s and were 

18 those evaluated and addressed from a bioassay 

19 standpoint.

20 So overall, Mark, I think all we 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

149 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 were trying to do is just, in terms of 

2 completing this issue, as to whether the 

3 matrix, I think, that Greg and company started 

4 developing, you know, as far as whether it's 

5 reflecting --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And how about -

7 - you skipped over protactinium-231 I think, 

8 unless I missed that. I might have missed it.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Did I skip that? 

10 Protactinium. Probably because it wasn't in 

11 the narrative, right?

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It was in the 

13 table, though, yes.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: It was in the 

15 table, though. What does NOS stand for?

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Not otherwise 

17 specified.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Yes, I 

19 don't really have any views, I know 

20 protactinium was prominent, as was polonium in 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

150 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the early days. But --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Kathy, do you 

3 have any questions on protactinium? Was it 

4 just -- actually, in this table, you don't 

5 really specify time frames on it.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: There wasn't much 

7 data.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So I don't 

9 know what we can conclude from this other than 

10 that it was low quantities, right?

11 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, low quantity, 

12 laboratory amount.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Kathy?

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Nothing is 

15 jumping out. I'm thinking here.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

17 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I don't 

18 think that this was a part of that document 

19 I'm talking about. 

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I was just 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

151 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 going back to Mound and where protactinium 

2 figured there, and that seemed to be in the 

3 early days.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that's what 

5 I thought with polonium too, but --

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I know, and 

7 so you know, it's --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think the 

9 2007 might have been a typo, too, or something 

10 like that, I don't know.

11 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, it 

12 was a typo and a lot of different --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Really? Okay, 

14 all right. All right. Or well, it might have 

15 been something you know, related to burial 

16 ground work too or whatever, I don't know. Who 

17 knows?

18 MR. FITZGERALD: But maybe it 

19 could be put to bed just with the additional 

20 data capture anyway. I mean, some of this, the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

152 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 source term information, if you're going to 

2 look at CMR I guess you could -- my sense is 

3 almost everything went through CMR at one 

4 point or another, so if you can establish when 

5 CMR was done with it, I think that pretty much 

6 is the end point, except for the burial 

7 grounds.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Oh, Kathy, what was 

9 the date you said about the polonium?

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 2007, wasn't 

11 it?

12 DR. MACIEVIC: 2007.

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: There are 

14 urinalysis samples in 2007/2008 in the 

15 database.

16 DR. NETON: Could have been legacy 

17 follow-ups on intakes that occurred years ago, 

18 I mean that's after -- 

19 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I don't 

20 know. It's got a pretty short half-life.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

153 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. MILES: What year was it that 

2 the guy was murdered with the --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes.

4 MR. MILES: -- the polonium?

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes, when 

6 the --

7 MR. MILES: By the poison?

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That poisoned 

9 him, yes.

10 MR. KATZ: That was around then.

11 MR. MILES: Was that around then? 

12 That is something that -- about 2007.

13 MR. MILES: Just some follow-up on 

14 that or something.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

16 MEMBER MUNN: That was a long way 

17 away.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes, that was in London 

19 and well, and overseas. It was on a plane.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

154 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Well, I 

2 detailed all that in a subset for SC&A's 

3 concerns on that table, so -- there was a 

4 second part of that number one, let me just 

5 flip back up to the matrix.

6 Maybe this is in your narrative --

7 I was reading through the table mainly -- but 

8 we also asked about the type of monitoring 

9 data for each of those.

10 You know, you give us a table 

11 indicating the use and locations, how much --

12 to what extent do you know about monitoring or 

13 available data for --

14 Okay. In some cases it may be 

15 moot if it's like, you know, laboratory 

16 quantities or if it was not in use in this 

17 time period, you know, but all right. We will 

18 add that. We will carry that over.

19 MEMBER MUNN: It wouldn't be 

20 expected to be of high significance in terms 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

155 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 of dose.

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Mark, I 

3 might be able to shed some light on that.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

5 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I went 

6 through the in vivo and the in vitro database 

7 that they had and I pulled out all the non8 common radionuclides. 

9 Curium-244 isn't listed in the in 

10 vivo database, at least for I guess some 

11 people; I don't know how many at this point. 

12 And if I remember correctly, the only quote13 unquote "exotic" that I pulled out of the in 

14 vitro was that polonium-210.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I think 

16 that's why we were asking about other, you 

17 know, was there air sampling -- was there 

18 other monitoring data too, air, so --

19 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Now I know 

20 that in the -- also in the in vivo count, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

156 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 there was americium-241, obviously. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

3 We'll leave that as a carryover action, 

4 though. How about item 2 for issue 2?

5 DR. MACIEVIC: Okay, Don Stewart, 

6 are you on the line?

7 MR. STEWART: Yes, Greg, I am 

8 here.

9 DR. MACIEVIC: I thought so. I am 

10 going to -- well, I thought maybe since you 

11 developed the chart that you should go through 

12 this one, but the point on this is that we did 

13 a calculation for all the exotic radionuclides 

14 for an internal dose model to come up with 

15 what the doses would be for these different 

16 radionuclides using the coworker intake for 

17 plutonium and 238 and 239, to come up with 

18 these values and you will see through here 

19 that pretty much the Super S for plutonium20 239 covers everything and there's also 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

157 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 actinium is a key player in it.

2 And Don, if you could just give a 

3 little quick overview of the table and what 

4 your -- the conclusion is on it.

5 MR. STEWART: Sure, Greg. This was 

6 kind of -- and it's several years old at this 

7 point. We were contemplating the use of the 

8 coworker dose, coworker plutonium intakes, to 

9 use the surrogate radionuclides for any 

10 potential exotics exposure.

11 So we wanted to look at the 

12 relative values of the doses that came from 

13 those. So we did a bunch of IMBA runs for a 

14 number of different organs, and the results 

15 you see in the table are relative doses.

16 What we usually found was that the 

17 Super S model resulted in the highest dose. 

18 Actinium resulted in some very high doses as 

19 well. Trying to -- just going beyond that, I 

20 think it's all summarized in the verbiage.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

158 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, right.

2 MR. STEWART: Yes, this is really 

3 just an effort to see, okay, what is the big 

4 hitter as far as these exotics go, what is 

5 going to give me the largest dose, such that 

6 if I could simply say that any exotic exposure 

7 could be bounded by a single radionuclide, 

8 would it be possible to use that radionuclide? 

9 And this is an attempt to do that.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Don, I have a 

11 question on the table. There's a couple of 

12 places, if I am applying this right, where it 

13 doesn't seem like either Pu-238 or curium or 

14 Pu-239 for everything else is necessarily 

15 bounding. I was wondering if I was just not 

16 reading this right.

17 If you go from Pu-239 M solubility 

18 for the lung, it's .063, and if you go to 

19 actinium, it's, as you were pointing out, 

20 actinium is pretty high, it's .194.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

159 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 As I recall, you were going to use 

2 the intakes for Pu-239 as bounding for 

3 everything but curium. Is this an exception? I 

4 just -- I am trying to figure out. Would you 

5 apply Super S instead of the M? I am just 

6 going M to M, for example, for Pu-239 

7 actinium-227. It looks like it's higher. I 

8 just don't know if I am reading it right.

9 MR. STEWART: What's the organ 

10 again, the lung?

11 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, the lung but 

12 you could also choose the other organs. They 

13 all seem to be higher than the Pu-239 M. 

14 MR. STEWART: Right. Well, in 

15 fact, in that case the highest dose on that 

16 line for the lung is Pu-239 type Super S, 

17 right?

18 MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, I know, I'm 

19 just trying to figure out how to use the 

20 table. So you are saying if, you know, you 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

160 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 don't use the solubility class, you just use 

2 Super S on plutonium as the bounding value?

3 MR. STEWART: We don't base our 

4 assumptions for absorption type necessarily on 

5 data from the TBD. When we are doing dose 

6 reconstructions, we use the most claimant7 favorable assumption, and it's been a feature 

8 of our program for some time now.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, so you are 

10 saying you would basically choose the higher 

11 value irregardless of the solubility class?

12 MR. STEWART: That is correct, 

13 unless we have very solid data to justify 

14 another choice, and typically that is not the 

15 case, as you know.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, so in this 

17 case if you are using Pu-239 as the primary 

18 for actinium you would go with perhaps 20.2, 

19 which would be S class, as the bounding?

20 MR. STEWART: Well, again, we have 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

161 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 to make the most claimant-favorable 

2 assumption, which in this case would be Super 

3 S.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, the most --

5 the most claimant-favorable. Okay. 

6 MR. STEWART: Correct, and it's 

7 been a feature of our program for some time 

8 now.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: But if you didn't 

10 -- excuse me, bear with me for a second -- if 

11 you didn't know what your -- you didn't have 

12 any data for your actinium or some of these 

13 exotics, and you are using Pu as a primary, 

14 how would you know what would be the most 

15 claimant-favorable solubility class that you 

16 have listed, because there wouldn't be any 

17 comparison point?

18 MR. STEWART: How would you know 

19 which was the most claimant-favorable on a 

20 given claim?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

162 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I'm just 

2 saying you know, I am just trying to 

3 understand this table, because clearly you 

4 could pick the more claimant-favorable Pu-239 

5 class because you have the values for these 

6 exotics, but I guess the -- if I am not 

7 mistaken, the whole approach is based on using 

8 the primary because you don't have the values 

9 for the exotics.

10 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, what you're 

11 trying to is you are going to take the intakes 

12 from plutonium --

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: -- stick them all 

15 into all these different radionuclides and see 

16 which give you the most claimant-favorable. So 

17 you --

18 MR. STEWART: That's correct, Joe. 

19 What's happening here is in each -- I should 

20 explain this. The assumption here was that we 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

163 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 took that coworker dose intake for plutonium 

2 and we assumed that the intake of each of the 

3 other radionuclides at that same level.

4 And this is the dose for that 

5 organ under those assumptions. Now, when you 

6 run an individual case, you may find that, 

7 unexpectedly, some other absorption type will 

8 result in a higher dose.

9 But you know for these cases here, 

10 the highest dose -- I'm sorry, in the example 

11 you cited the highest dose was plutonium Super 

12 S, assuming an equal intake of all the others, 

13 and that's for that organ only.

14 MEMBER MUNN: And if I'm following 

15 the asterisk correctly, if for example you 

16 were dealing with the kidney, you would in 

17 that case, in the individual case, actually 

18 run the calculation of the Super S dose to see 

19 what it gave you.

20 MR. STEWART: Yes, we would, I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

164 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 didn't run all of these out for the Super S.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. That's 

3 understandable. There's no reason for you to 

4 do; I just wanted to make sure I was 

5 understanding.

6 MR. STEWART: Right, yes in a 

7 given case we don't -- we won't just assume oh 

8 wow, Super S is probably limiting in this case 

9 so we are just going to use it.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

11 MR. STEWART: It's a matter of 

12 several IMBA runs in the case before we send 

13 it.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: This is also for 

15 unmonitored workers, so that you are applying 

16 this when you have no other data to work with.

17 MEMBER LOCKEY: If you have equal 

18 intake, is there always -- plutonium-238 Super 

19 S is always, would always be the highest 

20 value?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

165 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There's some 

2 exceptions. Actinium seems to be the main 

3 exception.

4 DR. NETON: But the whole idea was 

5 that if they controlled their intakes of the 

6 other exotic nuclides with the same radiation 

7 protection program, but the plutonium then --

the 50th 8 percentile intake for plutonium, the 

9 actual intake of radioactive material would 

10 bound the intakes of all these other exotics. 

11 That was the concept that was outlined in the 

12 ER.

13 Now, that assumes that the 

14 conditions under which the workers were 

15 exposed were similar.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I think, 

17 hearing this silence, I think, Joe, you might 

18 want a little more time to spend with this 

19 response.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Well I think I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

166 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 understand better what was done.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: But, yes, I think 

4 the original request was to, as a proof of 

5 principle, to show how you would actually 

6 bound doses to the various exotics and I think 

7 that's what this table does.

8 I don't think we have ever seen 

9 this before, so I think it's helpful to have 

10 the table.

11 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, the table --

12 this was -- this information, if I am not 

13 mistaken, Don, was in the -- we did sample 

14 dose reconstructions and I think this 

15 information was with that. Was it, Don, or no?

16 MR. STEWART: I think it was in a 

17 former response to an SEC petition. Dan, maybe 

18 you can fill me in there. My memory is a 

19 little foggy on the substance.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

167 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 original -- at the last meeting we said that 

2 you would go through claimant files with data 

3 for exotics to determine if this would be 

4 bounding, so you might have some examples --

5 DR. MACIEVIC: Well I think what 

6 it is, is yes, this is a full table. What we 

7 did was a specific DR and used this method to 

8 show that here's your bounding dose based on 

9 the intakes. It wasn't this table, so that's 

10 right.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Why don't I say 

12 that SC&A will review this table and provided 

13 examples and then if they can't find them --

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, you know, I 

15 think the methodology has been one that NIOSH 

16 has used a lot, going to different sites and 

17 everything. I think the issue we are grappling 

18 with is sort of this normalization with what 

19 Jim was talking about, whether you can make 

20 the assumption that the actual program, health 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

168 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 physics program, the handling, glove-boxing 

2 perhaps of these materials, that all of that 

3 was consistent so you would have a basis for 

4 applying it.

5 I think that was the part that we 

6 were questioning. Can you make that broad 

7 assumption for all these particular exotics? 

8 And going back to what was in the ER and the 

9 first meeting, we got a rather extensive 

10 literature survey which pointed to some 

11 reports that suggested that, you know, for 

12 example, I guess neptunium was handled in a 

13 glove box, so was plutonium, and so I think 

14 that's where we left the issue, that it was 

15 kind of -- I guess it was very subjective but 

16 you know, can the Work Group accept that as a 

17 basis for saying yes, okay, you can do these 

18 substitute nuclides because the handling was 

19 that much similar for everything. 

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

169 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Kathy DeMers. I need to ask another question 

2 on this table, and that's under the systemic 

3 organs. If you have cancer to the bone, how 

4 are you going to assign a missed dose?

5 MR. STEWART: You wouldn't assign 

6 a missed dose on an unmonitored worker.

7 DR. NETON: No, right. If he was 

8 unmonitored and we believe he should have been 

9 monitored then he would, more than likely, get 

the 50th 10 percentile of the plutonium intake.

11 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: But the 

12 plutonium intake in this case will 

13 underestimate if he was exposed to actinium.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is the 

15 actinium exception, right, that it's not 

16 bounding?

17 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: There's a 

18 couple of them.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I'm just 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

170 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 trying to --

2 MR. STEWART: My thinking and my 

3 hope in this was that at some point we could 

4 declare a literature search successful by 

5 saying actinium was unlikely to be a 

6 significant hazard in the post-'75 period.

7 So by being an exception, I was 

8 hoping that we could consider the plutonium 

9 bounding after '75.

10 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay, so 

11 what you are assuming is that anyone who 

12 worked with actinium-227 after '75 would have 

13 been monitored?

14 MR. STEWART: I have not yet found 

15 circumstances where people would have been 

16 exposed to actinium in the post-'75 period, 

17 except for the incident when the process of 

18 decommissioning the filter building.

19 That's based on what I have been 

20 able to find in the SRDB and other open 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

171 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 literature.

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay, I'm 

3 just a little confused here. So if you had an 

4 individual who was unmonitored but likely 

exposed to actinium, he would get the 50th 5 

6 percentile for plutonium?

7 DR. NETON: See, I think there's 

8 some misconception here. I thought that the 

9 way this approach was going to be was that you 

would give the 50th 10 percentile of the 

11 plutonium intake and then you would calculate 

12 the actinium dose that resulted from that, so 

13 there's no issue here.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: We're not using --

15 we're taking -- 

16 (Simultaneous speaking.)

17 DR. MACIEVIC: -- number and then 

18 applying it to the radionuclides and saying --

19 DR. NETON: It's almost like we 

20 answered a question that didn't make any 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

172 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 sense, is the way I am reading this thing.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So really the 

3 question goes back to Joe's question.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: I was trying to 

5 understand the table and I think I got my 

6 answer. But going back to original principles 

7 though, where this came from, I think it goes 

8 to, again, the assumption that Jim talked 

9 about, that you have to assume that the 

10 operations were similar, and I guess, you 

11 know, this ties back to the earlier action 

12 item, where we raised some questions that you 

13 know, maybe for thorium for example, it sounds 

14 like the handling was a little loosey-goosey.

15 At least even though they were 

16 gram quantities, my question is, it doesn't 

17 sound like they were handling thorium in a way 

18 that would be analogous to plutonium.

19 So there, you know, this 

20 normalization may not hold. I'm not sure -- I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

173 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 think for the rest of them, neptunium would --

2 the others I think may not be as much.

3 But I would think as part of the 

4 looking at the source terms onsite, that would 

5 answer the question whether Jim's assumption 

6 that he articulated earlier, whether you can 

7 assume that these were all operations that 

8 would be analogous to plutonium, glove boxes, 

9 you know, pretty secure handling. 

10 I'd want that nailed down because 

11 I think that was the original issue we had, 

12 which is, okay, we understand we are coming 

13 from a substitute, but that assumes that you 

14 can make that assumption about handling and 

15 the rigor of the health physics practice that 

16 governed the exposure potential, the intake 

17 potential.

18 And for thorium, I would say no. I 

19 guess you couldn't, at least for that one 

20 instance, because they had no protection, they 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

174 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 were exposed directly to thorium oxide and to 

2 do -- to apply the plutonium intakes for that 

3 situation, they would be yards apart, so you 

4 couldn't do it for at least the thorium in 

5 that instance.

6 So I'd want to be clear where this

7 holds, and where the handling, I think it 

8 holds for some but I'm not sure if it holds 

9 for all.

10 MEMBER MUNN: But these are 

11 circumstances that are known in the individual 

12 case when you are looking at it, right?

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, these are 

14 actually operations and campaigns, I mean 

15 there's numbers of workers involved and --

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, one of the 

17 things we have to keep in mind is that the SEC 

18 is for service workers and basically people 

19 who come and go and it's not an operational 

20 activity. I mean, this is --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

175 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, people who are 

2 just walking through.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, so, what, we 

4 are talking about security guards, 

5 firefighters, people who come through the 

6 building, walk in and out, who -- applying 

7 this method to a worker like that is going to 

8 get a much larger dose than you would expect 

9 an operator who is actually working on the 

10 material eight hours a day, 40 hours a week, 

11 and has this potential as opposed to the guy 

12 passing through.

13 Now, that person working on the 

14 material, we need to check that out for that 

15 particular issue, but someone walking through 

16 a facility where that is going on, and is 

17 getting a worker's intake applied to it, that 

18 to me, I would think, is going to be highly 

19 conservative for that particular type of 

20 person, not necessarily for the guy working, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

176 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 like you were saying, on the thorium, where if 

2 it's not being watched for, you could end up 

3 having a larger --

4 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

5 DR. MACIEVIC: But the person 

6 passing through --

7 MR. FITZGERALD: I wouldn't want 

8 to be the guy who is handling the thorium 

9 scrap from Hanford or the person who may have 

10 been supporting the thorium oxide issue.

11 So I guess I would tend to agree 

12 with you that for the glove box operations 

13 that are analogous to plutonium, I think we 

14 are on pretty firm ground.

15 I would want to just check across 

16 this table and make sure that is the case for 

17 thorium. I am not sure about actinium. I guess 

18 that was the question that Stewart was 

19 raising, was, you know, where does that come 

20 out.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

177 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 So it really is kind of validating 

2 this table and making sure that what Jim had 

3 said earlier, that you can make the assumption 

4 that the handling regime is very much the same 

5 or analogous to plutonium, and that makes this 

6 -- the use of the substitute intakes support 

7 or --

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Can we say it in a 

9 way, like with the thorium, that if you can 

10 show examples where, from some documentation, 

11 that it was not monitored correctly, then you 

12 modify this.

13 But if you -- it's more difficult, 

14 I mean, if we go through it, and everything 

15 looks like it's all kosher through the whole 

16 line, but then we say well, but there may have 

17 been -- I need to basically -- the examples, 

18 show the example where it didn't hold.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, the 

20 substitute intake process works for everything 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

178 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 that -- I'll just put it this way: a glove box 

2 handled that securely.

3 If it ends up that -- and I'm 

4 just, again, we have some examples, but we 

5 haven't nailed it down, but it ends up that 

6 thorium may have been the exception that just 

7 wasn't considered in that same vein. It was 

8 pretty loose.

9 And I guess I would say that that 

10 one finding suggests it wasn't handled like 

11 plutonium. Yes, so I'm just saying, you know, 

12 do we know -- do we know that the operations 

13 were consistent, that's all.

14 MR. MILES: Again Joe, gram 

15 quantities of thorium oxide, you know, as an 

16 HP, that may be a bench top operation not in a 

17 glove box whatsoever and maybe bioassay 

18 studies were required.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Maybe it was, 

20 maybe it wasn't, I'm just saying that --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

179 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. MILES: Take some small 

2 fraction of a gram of thorium, and assume the 

3 person inhales it, you are talking about a 

4 minuscule dose.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: You would not 

6 handle plutonium-239 in the way that was 

7 described here.

8 MR. MILES: No. 

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, so let's 

10 leave it at that, okay?

11 MR. MILES: That's absolutely 

12 right.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: So therefore all 

14 I am saying is that, you know, there may be 

15 some exceptions that --

16 DR. NETON: But I think the 

17 concept is a little different than that. It's 

18 that they would have controlled the exposures 

19 to the same level of rigor for example as if 

20 it -- you know, plutonium was controlled to be 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

180 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 below certain levels of exposure and therefore 

2 the other radionuclides, why would there be 

3 any reason to believe that they didn't control 

4 the exposures?

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Because we had 

6 examples where they were --

7 DR. NETON: Well, prime example we 

8 don't know, I mean that was an example that 

9 said it was a gram quantity, that could have 

10 been exposed, I might have to see the 

11 findings.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, yes, I'm not 

13 -- I'm saying that I understand the concept, I 

14 think it works as long as you can demonstrate 

15 that the -- that it was secured and handled to 

16 that level of rigor and I think, in a couple 

17 of cases, we have some questions. I mean --

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, and that is 

19 what I would like to do, is look at, as an 

20 action item, to look at the specific cases as 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

181 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 opposed to trying to prove some general 

2 principles or --

3 MR. FITZGERALD: No, that's why 

4 I've gone to the trouble of pointing to SRDB 

5 numbers, and examples and just saying --

6 DR. MACIEVIC: Look how well we 

7 fit in with what we have in the --

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, exactly, 

9 that's exactly where we are coming from, I'm 

10 saying we have some qualms but you know, 

11 again, I think if you look at it, it either 

12 fits this regime or it doesn't and if it 

13 doesn't, then you might have to do a different 

14 approach to that particular source, that's 

15 all.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Correct.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

18 MR. STEWART: Yes this is Don 

19 Stewart. I just want to clarify one thing and 

20 it should have been covered in my briefing. My 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

182 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 apologies.

2 What the DR would do was if in the 

3 case of the suspected exotics exposure, they 

4 would go through all of them, and if actinium 

5 were highest for that organ, that is what they 

6 would assign.

7 I didn't make that clear before 

8 and I understand Kathy's confusion. But that 

9 is definitely the case. I forget exactly what 

10 the TBD says, but they are considered to --

11 they are supposed to consider the entire suite 

12 of exotics and assign the highest dose from 

13 each, unless they have data that can show them 

14 otherwise.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. All clear 

16 now. I am just updating my notes here.

17 MR. KATZ: 2-2. So is the summary 

18 action that SC&A is going to review this table 

19 and --

20 MR. FITZGERALD: I don't think we 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

183 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 have any -- we have no issues on the table at 

2 all. I think it's more of a question of the 

3 assumptions that enable this table to be used.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, part of 

5 my action includes that SC&A will provide some 

6 more information on these examples or some, 

7 you know, areas where you feel there may be 

8 exceptions.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think we 

10 offered two examples on thorium, neptunium you 

11 will have to go behind the screen.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, but also 

13 curium, the one that Kathy mentioned in the 

14 last section, that's another class of -- you 

15 know, whatever.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: So if we have any 

17 additional ones we will forward that, but I 

18 think that's --

19 MR. KATZ: So then is the action 

20 just with DCAS?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

184 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, could we get 

2 the -- have you got a listing, or do your 

3 responses -- I know you gave the -- could we 

4 have you send us the --

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, we can send 

6 you --

7 DR. MACIEVIC: -- exact SRDB 

8 number or the listing or something, so that we 

9 then will use that as the jump-off.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, yes.

11 DR. MACIEVIC: So we don't have to 

12 --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's the way 

14 I figured it, that SC&A would give a little 

15 more specifics on these examples. And then 

16 NIOSH will follow up on those examples to 

17 assure they fit in the plutonium regime.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: I think we have 

19 neptunium, thorium, curium --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I put 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

185 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 actinium as a question --

2 MR. FITZGERALD: Actinium was a 

3 question mark that Kathy agrees to. I think 

4 those ones.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, so I put 

6 those down and you can --

7 MR. FITZGERALD: All right.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- provide that 

9 to NIOSH and they will follow up on it.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: All right.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What time have 

12 we got? Can we get through this item before we 

13 go to lunch? You only have one more section on 

14 this, right?

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, well, three, 

16 there's no action on it.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, three was 

18 no further actions. So four -- four was just 

19 what? 

20 DR. MACIEVIC: Four is really --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

186 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER BEACH: Four goes back to 

2 budget, it looks like.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes this is the one 

4 where we were going to try to get the actual 

5 documents on there, but I listed several 

6 different things about the checklist, about 

7 the -- and these documents are all on the O: 

8 drive there -- that talk about the exotics and 

9 basically run though there that example. I 

10 talk about health physics, back from January 

11 or March 1981, radiation protection, their 

12 quarterly report.

13 They talk about the health physics 

14 checklist indoctrination and a total of 211 

15 Los Alamos employees received radiation safety 

16 orientations as part of the HP checklist 

17 procedures when the employee starts a new job 

18 as a radiation worker.

19 So that is part of their 

20 indoctrination that they run through with the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

187 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 health physics going in, and then everything 

2 else in here are just references to what these 

3 documents are on the different exotic 

4 radionuclides with curium, neptunium, all the 

5 actinides and they run through several 

6 different years as for the discussion.

7 And the one thing I had mentioned 

8 about the 12 monthly reports from '55 and '56 

9 for the CMR area, air levels for 

10 contamination, are discussed for plutonium, 

11 americium, curium, polonium, uranium -- and, 

12 well, I had curium. 

13 Plutonium and curium had the same 

14 air concentration and they had the alpha air 

15 data that is shown. So these numbers that they 

16 have in these lists are linked to a plutonium 

17 action number for their air sampling that they 

18 were monitoring. So if you were monitoring 

19 the plutonium, you couldn't exceed the 

20 plutonium action level for the air, that was 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

188 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the same one for the curium that they had as 

2 well.

3 So, on these actual survey forms, 

4 they have the numbers that are written in and 

5 filled out for the particular rooms: the 

6 reports of what they were.

7 So that is one thing that I found 

8 through the SRDB that links that directly, 

9 showing how they were controlling to plutonium 

10 level 4 the curium in that.

11 And then the rest of these are 

12 just example documents that discuss all that. 

13 So --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But as far as 

15 the fundamental question showing job types and 

16 exotics, you still have to --

17 DR. MACIEVIC: They have to go and 

18 get them, yes. Because this is sort of filling 

19 that in about that, but there's no -- it's not 

20 specific.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

189 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can I -- so 

2 that'll be a carryover action.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: I would refer that 

4 back to the other one.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's 

6 fine, yes. But can I ask one question on your 

7 item 4?

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Absolutely not.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll ask 

10 anyway. Los Alamos airborne releases by 

11 facility and isotope. You say that none of the 

12 exotics are listed which supports the idea 

13 that they were not of much significance, but 

14 then the last line says the air monitoring 

15 includes alpha counting in such places as T16 48, known for work with curium and neptunium.

17 So was it the -- I guess those two 

18 statements are not contradictory?

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, in these 

20 particular reports, they have only specific 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

190 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 ones where they picked out that they actually 

2 talked about the curium and neptunium. All 

3 the other listings in there do not have them 

4 in there, so this general, long listing of air 

5 sampling, there's very little -- 

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this is like 

7 the one exception you are saying --

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, right, that 

9 it's an exception to it a little bit in there, 

10 but the bulk of it is not referring to the 

11 actinides.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Joe, any 

13 follow-up on that? I'll list that as a 

14 carryover action really from the last meeting.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: No, not really.

16 MEMBER BEACH: Well, I had a 

17 question when I read this if SC&A had anything 

18 -- did you get anything of value or did you 

19 have time to look at any of those documents 

20 that they list here?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

191 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, no.

2 MEMBER BEACH: Or are we just --

3 MR. FITZGERALD: No. We have had 

4 about a week and a half, and it was a lot to 

5 go through. We have scanned it -- we need to 

6 look at the documentation, but, again, there's 

7 a lot here.

8 MEMBER BEACH: So I mean that 

9 might be an action while waiting for that --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, for SC&A 

11 to review the provided documents, right.

12 MEMBER MUNN: And we're putting 

13 this together because the original question 

14 was what? That there was a question as to 

15 whether or not training was adequate?

16 MEMBER BEACH: I think the 

17 original question was NIOSH should provide a 

18 matrix from the checklist data --

19 MEMBER MUNN: I'm reading that. 

20 That doesn't tell me what originated this 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

192 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 question. 

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I know 

3 what your question is, Wanda.

4 MEMBER BEACH: Isn't that kind of 

5 trying to put the workers and the job types, 

6 and what they were monitored for in those 

7 locations?

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, and because 

9 we couldn't, that's the thing, we were trying 

10 to do, that got stopped, they tried to fill in 

11 with some of these things to talk about 

12 different laboratories and procedures in areas 

13 where this material is discussed, but I was 

14 not able to go and get a detailed look at new 

15 information.

16 So this was like a substitute just 

17 to say well, since I couldn't get that, here 

18 are several documents where this is actually 

19 discussed in different facilities, procedures 

20 from different activities, procedures from 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

193 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 different facilities, and how the work is 

2 done, to give you a feel for it but not the 

3 full-blown analysis.

4 MEMBER MUNN: It just seems that 

5 we continue to search for perfect data, and 

6 knowing from the outset that such a thing does 

7 not exist in nature, it's difficult to see 

8 how, once we have this matrix put together, we 

9 can say anything other than well there it is. 

10 It's -- whether the information is 

11 going to be meaningful is questionable, it 

12 seems. It will be interesting information, but 

13 I guess the real question that should be 

14 foremost would be and does this in fact 

15 actually help the dose reconstruction process 

16 in a way that is concrete, or does it simply 

17 add one more item which may or may not be of 

18 any consequence when it comes to calculating 

19 doses?

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I think 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

194 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 part of the -- I'm trying to remember why 

2 exactly we wanted the job types, but I think 

3 part of the rationale was to make a 

4 determination whether it was still going to be 

5 bounding for all classes of workers, if we had 

6 to do coworker approaches.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I guess I said 

8 that badly. What I really and truly was trying 

9 to say was, since the argument -- the counter10 argument is always you can't tell that the job 

11 description tells you anything at all about 

12 where they were, that's a continual counter13 argument that we get in every site we 

14 approach, then if that is going to be the 

15 case, then I guess what I am trying to say is 

16 if we are not going to be able to use this 

17 information, why are we pressuring the agency 

18 to provide it?

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I'm 

20 actually trying to remember why exactly we 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

195 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 asked for job type on this table. There was 

2 probably a good reason at the time.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Well, there was a 

4 time when it was generally assumed that job 

5 type would have some relationship to the 

6 ability to do dose reconstructions and to do 

7 surrogate data information.

8 But since, as I said, in every 

9 site that we approach, the counter-argument 

10 after the data is presented is almost 

11 inevitably the same, which is, yes, but you 

12 can't prove otherwise.

13 And if we are not going to use the 

14 information, then how useful is it really to 

15 promote further presentation of it, that it 

16 seems a valid question.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think part of 

18 it with the exotics, though, I can't really --

19 I am trying to track back through the matrix 

20 responses, and I would hate to have to go back 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

196 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 to the transcript, but I think, you know, part 

2 of my thought process here is that if it -- if 

3 these were in fact lab quantities, then if you 

4 track back and you see it's always lab techs 

5 or scientists that are monitored, then it sort 

6 of supports that argument that it was bench 

7 top work only, you know, and if you see 

8 operational, you know, so that's one reason to 

9 look at the job types anyway.

10 I know what you are saying -- well 

11 I know exactly what you are saying, Wanda, I 

12 just --

13 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I think there's 

14 good reason to look at it, as long as it's 

15 going to be useful information that is 

16 permitted to be used. That's my point.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Yes. Well, 

18 we have used that argument in the past. We 

19 have definitely used the argument of lab 

20 quantities being sort of exempted from SECs, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

197 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 you know, cite the Y-12 SEC.

2 Anyway, we will leave it there, 

3 and I think that's where the action will 

4 stand. And I think we are ready to break for 

5 lunch. 

6 All right, we will break for lunch 

7 until 10 after 1, I guess.

8 (Whereupon the above-entitled 

9 matter went off the record at 12:11 p.m. and 

10 resumed at 1:16 p.m.)

11 

12 

13 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

198 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 

2 1:16 p.m.

3 MR. KATZ: So good afternoon 

4 everyone. This is the Advisory Board on 

5 Radiation and Worker Health, LANL Work Group. 

6 We are just reconvening after lunch. Let me 

7 check on the line and see if we have Wanda on 

8 the line?

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, you do.

10 MR. KATZ: Great. And Mark, you 

11 can get going.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. We 

13 are up to issue 3 on the matrix. And 3-1.1. My 

14 numbering system switched over the whole 

15 matrix, so 1 and 3 is at 1.1. Yes, yes.

16 And I'll turn that over to NIOSH 

17 to explain.

18 DR. MACIEVIC: We increased the 

19 database from '88 to 2005 and that is out 

20 there.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

199 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. That's 

2 probably complete, right?

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, right.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, go ahead 

5 on to, I'll just update my notes here, but you 

6 can go ahead on to the next item, unless Joe, 

7 you have any questions on that?

8 MR. FITZGERALD: No, no. That 

9 takes care of that one.

10 MEMBER BEACH: Are we going to 

11 close that one?

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Okay, issue 2 is 

14 312, it's 1.2, is an issue that is going to 

15 require us getting to the sites of that being 

16 left open.

17 MEMBER LOCKEY: It's three point -

18 - 3-2?

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Three dash -- yes, 

20 3-1.2, on page 31.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

200 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, 1.3.

2 DR. MACIEVIC: Three and four 

3 both, well three, 1.3 refers back to item 2, 

4 we don't want to go back there. And 1.4 refers 

5 back to item 1 in the matrix. So those 

6 discussions are there and consider whatever 

7 the results from that discussion for this, 

8 these issues.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I am just 

10 recapping on that. Oh, and I had had that same 

11 note before, right? See item 2 in the matrix, 

12 see item 1 in the matrix.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, see item 1.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So those are 

15 the same.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

17 MR. KATZ: So is it easier just to 

18 cut these out if they are --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Yes.

20 MR. KATZ: If they are completely 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

201 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 referential, then why track them?

2 MEMBER PRESLEY: I would think so. 

3 It would make it easier on somebody.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MEMBER BEACH: So we just need to 

6 make sure that we don't lose anything.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think 

8 we are losing anything, as long as we cover 

9 the issue, the fundamental issue in there, 

10 which I think we will, right, it's adequacy, 

11 reliability, yes. 

12 DR. MACIEVIC: Because we had 

13 pretty -- issued 1 and 2 pretty hard so these 

14 references were --

15 (Simultaneous speaking.)

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Then go 

17 down to item 2 then.

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Okay, 3-2. Again 

19 that's a site issue where we will have to get 

20 information. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

202 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER BEACH: Is that something we 

2 could coordinate, that when you do get on the 

3 site with SC&A at the same time, to save 

4 resources and time, is that something we could 

5 work out?

6 DR. MACIEVIC: As far as --

7 MR. KATZ: Well there always is 

8 communications about these, whether SC&A 

9 actually needs a particular data capture, 

10 visitor -- 

11 MR. FITZGERALD: You know, that's 

12 a separate question.

13 MR. KATZ: The process is always 

14 to, when there is going to be a data capture, 

15 to let the other party know.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

17 MR. KATZ: It works both ways. 

18 SC&A does that too.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: So when it opens up 

20 we can send out an email that is has opened up 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

203 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 and we are going to start pursuing these 

2 issues.

3 MR. KATZ: Do we have a sense as 

4 to how long we are going to be in this holding 

5 pattern of --

6 DR. MACIEVIC: Not from what I saw 

7 the other day on the last week's emails from 

8 them, it's still in a discussion.

9 MR. KATZ: But Stu's communicating 

10 with --

11 DR. NETON: Yes, I'll bring it up. 

12 We have our every other weekly interagency 

13 call, and I brought up the before to the other 

14 agencies concerning them and --

15 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

16 Kathy DeMers. 

17 MR. KATZ: Hi Kathy.

18 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I've been 

19 in contact with Greg at least over the Pantex 

20 situation, and he had mentioned the money was 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

204 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

going to start flowing he thought May 18th 1 . 

2 MR. KATZ: That's what Pantex says 

3 specifically, is that what you are saying?

4 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well in 

5 general, to the EEOICPA program.

6 MR. KATZ: I see. So this maybe 

7 was all tied up with the continuing resolution 

8 problems?

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Sounds like 

10 it.

11 MR. KATZ: Yes, okay. Thanks 

12 Kathy.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can, just for 

14 my, just as a reminder can you clarify what 

15 item 2 was? It was -- explain the drop-off in 

16 bioassay data. Oh, okay, we -- so there were a 

17 lot less samples taken over a certain period 

18 of time.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, and then --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And it was --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

205 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 right. 

2 DR. MACIEVIC: It was to look and 

3 see if --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Got it.

5 DR. MACIEVIC: There was a process 

6 change or operations change.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Okay. I 

8 misread that when I first read it. Okay.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: That was 

10 particularly relevant to the guards and the 

11 service workers, because that's a time when 

12 they are backing people out of bioassay.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, which 

14 happened at a lot of the sites. All right. 

15 Item 3. 

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Item three. Oh, go 

17 ahead.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Go ahead. So is 

19 going back to items 1 and 2 in the --

20 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes. Three and four 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

206 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 refer back to one and two.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, so we 

3 will drop them from this part of the matrix as 

4 well I think, yes. Okay. Anything else for 

5 that item, Joe or --

6 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I think was 

7 just basically --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's all mostly 

9 covered in the first, yes, first one and two, 

10 sections one and two. Okay, up to item 4, 

11 moving right along.

12 DR. MACIEVIC: On item 4, we are 

13 looking at the issue of applying N/P ratios 

14 back from -- in for data from '80 to '82 and 

15 using that to apply it from '76 onward to 

16 1979.

17 And what I did was use the SRDB 

18 reference 27261, which is the -- all the 

19 annual beta, gamma, neutron exposure by 

20 person, by year, for the development of the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

207 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 ratios.

2 And what I did was the assumptions 

3 or the reasoning that I can use annual doses 

4 because this was not the monthly or the 

5 quarterly or whatever their exposure 

6 monitoring period was, it was the annual dose, 

7 annual summary for each one of these, because 

8 that is all we had available in the database 

9 also, is the annual.

10 That one is that neutrons, 

11 according to our TBD and what was there, is 

12 the neutron badges were given to those persons 

13 most likely to be exposed to neutrons, one; 

14 that the short period from '80 to '82, since 

15 we have the worry about moving from job to job 

16 and other things if you are using too 

17 prolonged an extended period, that the short 

18 period from '80 to '82 reduces the possibility 

19 that a worker would move to a new job, so that 

20 N/P ratio at least would remain consistent for 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

208 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 an individual on a yearly basis.

2 And the question of the job 

3 location versus N/P ratio will be considered 

4 below which is where I did a makeshift look at 

5 job positions for the claimant, from the 

6 claimant files, to get a little bit of feel 

7 about operational activities and possible 

8 changes based on that.

9 And also, that only positive, and 

10 in this analysis I used only positive neutron 

11 and proton doses throughout so that we are not 

12 bringing up or lowering any averages based on 

13 zeroes.

14 So what we have is, on the tables, 

15 on page 33, you have the LANL N/P ratios for 

16 the years in question, and you have the 

17 average and standard deviation for the ratios.

18 I also put in the number of 

19 employees to get a feel for using that also as 

20 a transition or an idea to point to the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

209 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 potential for changes in activities.

2 By hiring more and more people it 

3 means your activities at the site would be 

4 increasing. If it stays relatively constant, 

5 my assumption is, is that you are staying 

6 relatively constant in what you are doing as 

7 well, and obviously that is not a tremendous 

8 indicator, but until we can go to the site and 

9 look at activities, I use that as sort of a 

10 surrogate down there.

11 From the previous report that I 

12 gave last time, I also put the table four two, 

13 which is the average dose standard deviation 

14 and the standard plus -- the average and the 

15 standard deviation together and the total 

16 number of positive readings from the claimant, 

17 just the claimant.

18 And again, to show that when you 

19 get to the period of '79, 1980, the number of 

20 positive doses increases the actual dose 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

210 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 amount itself, the average dose does not 

2 increase as much. 

3 There's a period in 1986 which we 

4 will look at on the next chart, on the next 

5 page, that will look like there is a 

6 transition in operations there, but --

7 So the whole point of this is that 

8 these averages in the N/P ratios, from `80, 

9 `81 to `82, where you have got N/P ratios of 

10 4.89, or I'm sorry, that's the standard 

11 deviation, but the average of 2.79, 2.01 and 

12 2.49 are the three averages and they have got 

13 their standard deviations, that that could be 

14 combined to go back and apply to the values 

15 from '76 through '79 which you see the N/P 

16 ratios there are much lower during that period 

17 of time.

18 And I should also note that one of 

19 the things that in looking through the TBD, 

20 from the external dose portion, there was 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

211 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 going to be a question that is discussed in 

2 one of the next issues about the use of a dose 

3 correction factor.

4 The TBD does a very good job of 

5 showing for the different facilities the 

6 breakout of energy and also the N/P ratios for 

7 facilities as LAMPF, the reactors and other 

8 sites that have neutron potential.

9 So we feel that is a good 

10 indicator of how the neutron dose is broken 

11 out by energy to get a feel for any 

12 corrections that would be based, that TBD 

13 basically would not have to be corrected for 

14 that.

15 But what you can do is use these 

16 TBDs' N/P ratios in the TBD and make a 

17 modification using these values over the ones 

18 that are there.

19 In figure four one, I picked, you 

20 can see that the number of the N/P ratio takes 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

212 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 a jump from 1985 to 1986 and I believe at that 

2 point is when you do have some form of 

3 transition occurring in the workplace and 

4 other activities are coming in, because there 

5 is a major jump at that period.

6 And while if you look from 1980 to 

7 1982, it is pretty well constant, and from '76 

8 through '79, it's also constant, or relatively 

9 constant with that, and you could apply the 

10 ratio from '80 to '81 to the '82 and apply 

11 that to the early years, you would not take 

12 those years that go past '85, because that is 

13 too wide a spread and something has occurred 

14 in that period which you have to find what 

15 type of activities have occurred.

16 So I think that would be valid to 

17 use that period in there and using the ratios 

18 that you have. And the next -- one of the 

19 things that is in the file, the Work Group 

20 file for 5211 is a folder that has an Excel 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

213 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 file that looks at job title versus average 

2 neutron dose and average photon dose, and also 

3 have an N/P ratio develop from that.

4 And if you look at all the job 

5 titles in there, the highest ratio that you 

6 would have is 7.67 and by taking a look at the 

7 standard deviation plus the average for the 

8 '80 to '82, that comes up to 7.68.

9 So if we were going to apply 

10 something, if anything you would want to maybe 

11 use some kind of distribution for the N/P 

12 ratio to apply as opposed to a one value 

13 during that period of time to apply back for 

14 the other period between '76 and 1980.

15 Also, the values of the neutron 

16 dose, let's see, okay that's not on here, let 

17 me ignore that then, the last part of this 

18 sentence there is with the number of N/P ratio 

19 values average per year was for 19 -- to use 

20 for the average -- '76 was 248, '77 482 and 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

214 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 that shows you the number of values that were 

2 used in order to get that average and standard 

3 deviation in that other table, so there is a 

4 significant number of values that were used to 

5 develop these numbers.

6 So, the information presented 

7 here, I would think, by incorporating this 

8 would then have to be incorporated into the 

9 TBD and followed so that you could then 

10 upgrade the TBD and produce a modified section 

11 in the external for using those ratios.

12 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

13 Kathy DeMers. Can I ask a clarifying question?

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Sure.

15 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: So you 

16 have, say, a photon dose in the record of 100 

17 millirem, and you are going to try and apply 

18 this against correction factor to that dose. 

19 Are you saying that you are going 

20 to multiply, let me get it right here, for 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

215 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 1980 by 2.79 or are you going to multiply by 

2 7.68?

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, that would be 

4 my preference and what I want to do is to have 

5 a distribution that you would apply this to, 

6 to multiply the number by, because in looking 

7 at one of the things that will be noted in the 

8 Excel file for the job titles, is that that 

9 N/P ratio does vary with the particular job 

10 titles that are there.

11 So if you go with a hard number, 

12 you are going to have to know the area it's 

13 from, which is probably not going to be able 

14 to use, so my approach would be for these 

15 particular years you would give that spread to 

16 cover what the value would be for an 

17 application of those N/P ratios.

18 So that way you are covering the 

19 potential for the high and the low to run with 

20 the average, a number generated based on that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

216 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 distribution.

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay, so 

3 what would get put into the IREP model? I am 

4 confused.

5 DR. MACIEVIC: For --

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Say you had 

7 a 100 millirem photon.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: 100 millirem 

9 photon? Well you would run this against the 

10 doses and you would have -- that distribution 

11 would have to be put into the IREP model for 

12 that dose.

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: So, instead 

14 of selecting a constant, you would select a 

15 log normal or?

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

17 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay.

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Because you can 

19 develop with this -- yes, right.

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

217 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Because otherwise 

2 you run the potential as looking at that chart 

3 of leaving not actually covering the potential 

4 whole group that you are talking about.

5 Now, after we do a further study 

6 of the site by getting more information 

7 potentially for different job classes, we may 

8 be able to just fix it to a particular number, 

9 if you can spread the number of job classes 

10 out enough so that it would cover the majority 

11 of the people on the site, otherwise you would 

12 have to stick with some kind of spread.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There's a lot 

15 there but go ahead Joe.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, my question 

17 is more for clarification as well, that you 

18 know, this thing originally came up because of 

19 the proposed use of N/P ratios with 10 years 

20 going back --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

218 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: And so that was 

3 kind of long and could that be shortened and 

4 come back with the '80 to '82, applying 

5 backwards, and then the only postscript to 

6 that was, it's an assurance that the 

7 operations hadn't shifted.

8 And I guess looking at this table, 

9 I think 1978 gave me some pause, but this just 

10 furthers the need, I guess, of what you are 

11 going to be doing, which is just looking at 

12 operational changes and just kind of crossing 

13 the t that nothing was going on that would 

14 change that assumption between '76 and '79 and 

15 '80 to '82.

16 The other issue has to do with, 

17 NTA was in use through '80 or '79 --

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes. It came --

19 well --

20 MR. FITZGERALD: I thought it was 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

219 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the end of the '70s was NTA.

2 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, it did, yes. 

3 They went completely over into -- MR. 

4 FITZGERALD: Right. So the only question I 

5 would have is when you do N/P ratio 

6 comparisons, you are comparing --

7 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, NTA ran up to 

8 the late '80s. They used a -- to get that 

9 spread and they used desiccant and --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Because of TLD, 

11 energy dependence and the desiccant issue, 

12 right. 

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: But I am just 

15 trying to figure out in terms of apples versus 

16 apples, whether the N/P ratios for '80 to '82 

17 are based on TLD measurements necessarily, as 

18 compared with the '76 to '79 NTA measurements. 

19 What do you sense, I mean, is that what we are 

20 talking about as far as the neutron data?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

220 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, you are going 

2 to be applying it to the gamma dose for the --

3 MR. FITZGERALD: You are talking 

4 about the neutron --

5 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, but you are 

6 going to be applying the ratio to the gamma 

7 dose.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

9 DR. MACIEVIC: And the assumption 

10 is, is that you are pretty much, your gamma 

11 dose on the film and the TLD are pretty much 

12 the same, you are not getting any big spread, 

13 so that where it was acting haywire is the 

14 neutron portion.

15 So if you are developing a good 

16 ratio from those numbers, which TLD also 

17 responds and I will refer that in another 

18 issue that comes up, because it shows that the 

19 TLDs in a couple workplaces are -- that it 

20 does over-respond, you, by applying this N/P 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

221 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 ratio back onto those years, you are not 

2 really, you are taking away the effect of the 

3 under-response of the NTA film for those 

4 periods of time, because this is based -- only 

5 taking the film and the TLD and doing that, 

6 that number is staying -- not constant, but 

7 with film and TLD for photon being your base, 

8 that is going to stay numbers -- there are 

9 going to be modifications for --

10 MR. FITZGERALD: I mean I was 

11 trying -- you know I see where this is going 

12 but I'm just trying to think if the energy 

13 dependence is just a TLD as well, whether 

14 that's somehow going to --

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, but see, the 

16 TBD and I'll ask Don on this one here, because 

17 when I looked over before coming to this, the 

18 TBD does a decent job of splitting out the 

19 energy dependence, because you are getting the 

20 dose fractions from the different energies and 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

222 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 they talk about LAMPF and all that, and so I 

2 would think that frankly gets applied after 

3 the effect as to correcting for any kind -- 

4 MR. FITZGERALD: And that already 

5 is folded into your table?

6 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: And your graph.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, well, these 

9 numbers, I mean for what we do, this is --

10 that would be folded in using what we do for 

11 the TBD to correct the neutron and photon dose 

12 --

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Before you put it 

14 in the table.

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Right. These 

16 numbers are obviously straight from the site, 

17 and the ratios are done, and I have not 

18 applied energy corrections to the numbers in 

19 the stacks here. That would then come as the 

20 next step, to say what correction do you 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

223 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 apply to this based on energy.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: And then the only 

3 question, once you have made those adjustments 

4 and you can feel that you have got a correct 

5 value, adjusted appropriately, is whether it's 

6 bounding for specific locations and job 

7 categories.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: It's the part 

10 that you can't provide right now.

11 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, and that's 

12 why I'm saying unless we can provide something 

13 that splits it out, that to use a distribution 

14 from a list of workers that are in all 

15 varieties of work and then use that N/P ratio 

16 to apply it, that you would cover these 

17 situations.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: Otherwise you 

19 would have to go with the max.

20 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, which is 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

224 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 what I was saying.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: So, really the 

3 site work is to see if it's feasible to have a 

4 distribution, whether there is enough 

5 information to support it?

6 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. 

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Which is why I 

9 didn't start developing a whole big thing here 

10 because until I get further information 

11 there's no point.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: But the fallback 

13 is the seven point whatever max.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that 

15 highest -- all this -- I'm looking at the 

16 Excel spreadsheet -- all these ratios are 

17 based on, I may be rehashing some of what Joe 

18 is already asking, but all these ratios are 

19 based on TLD measurements or no?

20 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, the --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

225 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Seventy six --

2 it's got the individual job titles with 

3 ratios?

4 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: So two components 

6 is what we just talked about plus some 

7 assurance on the operational side?

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Which I am not 

10 sure there's a straightforward way to do that, 

11 I guess just to validate the neutron 

12 generating facilities, that nothing dramatic 

13 is happening at that time. But you did point 

14 out something in '86, '78 is a minor blip, but 

15 --

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, I think that 

17 even is stated in here which I didn't go 

18 through, but there's --

19 MR. FITZGERALD: The average for 

20 standard deviation is kind of interesting, 361 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

226 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 through 78 though, that sort of stands out. 

2 It's a 35 percent increase. But anyway, just 

3 maybe bolsters the case for taking a look to 

4 make sure there is not too much going on.

5 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, well that's 

6 the key yes. Because it definitely looks as 

7 you get to `86, something big --

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Eighty six is an 

9 obvious one. '70, '80 is --

10 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, and one of 

11 the points I want to make is that the TLD 

12 changes and seventy -- they go with the 

13 desiccant --

14 MR. FITZGERALD: It was ninety 

15 with the desiccant, but before that they had 

16 two TLDs and they all had their energy17 dependent --

18 DR. MACIEVIC: And that it is --

19 that this occurs not because of them using 

20 desiccant, that jump, but that's actually 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

227 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 something else occurring.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: An operational 

3 issue of some sort, right. So Mark, I think 

4 the prior action for look see on the 

5 operational side, some site work for job 

6 category/operational basis for enveloping it, 

7 I think that's it. So it's not really anything 

8 new.

9 MEMBER BEACH: And that's going 

10 back to the document that is listed in here, 

11 that is in the file?

12 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I think you 

13 have to sort of look at some site data just to 

14 --

15 MEMBER BEACH: Okay.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Because there's got 

17 to be other -- I mean, most of the stuff 

18 that's data capture is all referring to health 

19 physics type things, we need to also take a 

20 look at what kind of operational documents 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

228 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 that there are to say, you know, shipments of 

2 something increased, activities here increased 

3 and are not related just to the health 

4 physics, but to go and say they were --

5 because you will see, which I don't have, but 

6 I think on the spreadsheet that's out there, 

7 there's the number of employees also starts 

8 going up as you get into the late '80s and 

9 '90s, it starts going into the eight, nine and 

10 ten thousand employees, so you start having 

11 much larger numbers of people.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: What's 

13 interesting about this table, it's relatively 

14 constant until you get to the mid-'80s or so.

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: But you look at 

17 the positive readings, versus the average --

18 MEMBER BEACH: I was looking at 

19 that too --

20 MR. FITZGERALD: In some cases, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

229 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 like I said, '78 catches my eye because the 

2 number of positive readings is actually 

3 relatively low compared to the other years, 

4 but the average plus standard deviation is 

5 relatively high, so you start wondering, there 

6 might have been something going on.

7 But you would find out pretty 

8 quickly where the source of those exposures --

9 and those type of things are good pointers as 

10 to the type of years you want to look to.

11 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, that 1986 

12 operational activity, it's got to be easy to 

13 identify.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Oh yes, definitely.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And did I hear 

16 you say the idea is to use a distribution N/P 

17 ratios?

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Right unless we can 

19 show -- we can't find something in the 

20 documents at the site to be able to say here's 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

230 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 you know, that could fix an N/P ratio with a 

2 constant, I would say that then you can't 

3 associate it with people and that's going to 

4 be more difficult, the other option would be 

5 to have a spread that showed the distribution 

6 would apply to these doses for these periods.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I think 

8 we can go to item 2, right, or are you --

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes no, I -- 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I captured that 

11 -- item 2 talks about adjusting for fading, 

12 '80 to '90.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: And this, the 

14 response is based out of this memorandum that 

15 basically they did an analysis unfortunately 

16 only for the neutron. They didn't also look at 

17 gamma dose in this, so you could get a 

18 straight N/P ratio.

19 But an analysis of neutron dose 

20 versus -- the actual neutron dose versus the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

231 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 TLD dose and what they find is in table four 

2 three, which is, is that for these different 

3 areas, the correction factor, you would divide 

4 by this number.

5 So there would be a multiplication 

6 factor of between 1.2 and three -- TLD over7 response by 1.2 at 3.5 times the value of what 

8 was actually measured.

9 So to me that already, wound in 

10 with other conservative activity approaches 

11 you have with TBD, that that over-response of 

12 the TLD to these different neutrons for the 

13 measure would take, reduce the effect of any 

14 kind of fading on the TLD, I mean from the NTA 

15 film.

16 And act as the correction factor 

17 so that we would not have to do a fading 

18 correction to the TLDs based on the fact that 

19 these TLD doses are over-responding as they 

20 are, and then applying that with a 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

232 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 distribution and this, that it's already over2 responding, you will not -- my judgement --

3 underestimate the neutron dose.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: So again, use the 

5 ratios in applying it backwards as we 

6 discussed in the first one that will also 

7 accommodate that.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Say that again Joe?

9 MR. FITZGERALD: No, I was just 

10 saying, this sort of ties to the discussion we 

11 had on the first issue, which is by coming up 

12 with the N/P ratio distribution and applying 

13 it for the '76 to '79 era, when you are using 

14 NTA, you can address the fading by virtue of 

15 the correction factors that you are using for 

16 the response.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, essentially. 

18 You don't want to double correction factors 

19 and get outside the realm of reality.

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

233 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Kathy DeMers. Can I ask a question?

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sure.

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: How did you 

4 determine the time integrated response of the 

5 rem meter?

6 DR. MACIEVIC: That is in the 

7 discussion with the paper that is there. I did 

8 not determine a time response, but this is --

9 if you go to that document it describes what 

10 they did with the instrument and how they came 

11 up with doses.

12 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Honestly, off the 

14 top of my head I can't remember the exact 

15 details.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, based on 

17 that comment, you may want a little more time 

18 to look at it --

19 MR. FITZGERALD: We might want to 

20 look at the reference but otherwise I think 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

234 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the approach sounds about right and it will be 

2 fine.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, I just 

4 have that as an SC&A action to follow.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, we need to 

6 go through the references. There's a number of 

7 references in that response that we haven't 

8 got caught up to yet.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: But I think the 

11 approach sounds --

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Seems okay.

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Can I ask, when you 

15 know, instead of -- is this maybe to speed up 

16 our process for the next one, is when you read 

17 it, you know, and come up to questions, can we 

18 do it so that you can send me the questions 

19 right away and we can start a discussion back 

20 and forth, that way you know, I give you a 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

235 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 response here and then go back and have to --

2 MR. FITZGERALD: I was going to 

3 say this does not mean there's actually a 

4 problem with the reference.

5 DR. MACIEVIC: No, no.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Just that given 

7 the time we have had, we haven't had a chance 

8 to go through all the references.

9 What you go through on presenting 

10 issues I agree, that would be a good thing to 

11 have a technical call, or just send you an 

12 email and just say, you know --

13 MR. KATZ: Send a memo and send it 

14 through the Work Groups so that everybody has 

15 it. 

16 DR. MACIEVIC: And we can --

17 because I think again, this isn't a criticism,

18 I just thought of this now and it's not a 

19 criticism of reading/not reading documents 

20 yet, but I think the process could -- I think 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

236 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the reason it is so long in going with some of 

2 these things is that if we can hit some of 

3 these points early on, when you get to this 

4 meeting, we can we have the -- a pretty much 

5 worked out end result of how things are going.

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, that's what 

7 we kind of did with the memo I sent February 

2nd 8 , which was just saying okay, here's what 

9 we came up with and there's -- gives certainly 

10 some time for you to take a look at that and 

11 see if there's any way to respond to some of 

12 the questions we have in there so yes, same 

13 idea.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that's not 

15 a problem. The only thing we always ask is 

16 that you don't assume that it is closed just 

17 because you and Joe --

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Oh no --

19 (Simultaneous speaking.)

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine. 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

237 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Okay moving on. Item 5. 

2 DR. MACIEVIC: Item 5, one through 

3 four, are all referring back to item 4. And 

4 with the dose correction that's the use of 

5 only one neutron correction factor for all the 

6 -- for all LAMPF workers in question.

7 In going through the TBD, the 

8 correction factor is being based on the 

9 energies that are expected and the 

10 distribution of the energies, I wouldn't think 

11 that you would need several neutron correction 

12 factors for the facility, because the facility 

13 itself, with the type of radiation that is 

14 produced in the neutron, if you know the 

15 energy distribution that you are talking 

16 about, which we do have in the TBD and there 

17 is some other discussion again about the N/P 

18 ratios and other things with it, that that 

19 would be a relatively solid number to work 

20 with by using -- knowing what the neutron 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

238 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 energies are and applying those corrections to 

2 the fraction that you are giving to each of 

3 those energy bands.

4 So what other kind of things do 

5 you want to see as far as neutron correction 

6 factors beyond what is already in the external 

7 doses of TBD?

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think you 

9 hit it right. I think by location I mean I 

10 think LANSCE was one where they have sort of a 

11 distinct, you know, dose conversion factor and 

12 have other neutron sources I mean the whole 

13 thing about Los Alamos was they literally had 

14 different DCS because they had so much energy 

15 differences, energy spectrum differences.

16 So maybe a sampling of that two or 

17 three divergent operations that had distinctly 

18 different neutron, photon ratios. I think that 

19 would help and I think that would -- you know, 

20 it wouldn't have to be exhaustive but it would 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

239 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 be representative of the spread you are 

2 dealing with at Los Alamos. 

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

4 MR. FITZGERALD: LANSCE is clearly 

5 one. I don't know the other two off hand. 

6 Maybe something to do with Pu operation or 

7 something, but something that would give you 

8 some indication of how this would work for all 

9 --

10 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, I am going to 

11 go back over the TBD and see how the 

12 information is there that I can bring out and 

13 that would be useful to show, just as a 

14 summary of what we do have --

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Without -- because 

17 I don't think this is going to require any 

18 kind of digging through anything to --

19 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, LANSCE 

20 would be on the high end --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

240 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

2 MR. FITZGERALD: And I think it 

3 would be several that would be lower down in 

4 terms of the levels.

5 DR. MACIEVIC: Oh yes. Right.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So the idea --

7 I just moved all these to item -- issue 4. 

8 Were you just going to have that example as 

9 part of your response to issue 4, right?

10 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, LANSCE was a 

11 peculiar, a particular situation with the 

12 higher energy neutrons but you have several 

13 other lower energy examples that, you know, 

14 you want to apply the ratio to and see what 

15 you got.

16 DR. MACIEVIC: But you are going 

17 to do that anyway, if you are going to do a 

18 distribution, you are going to have to do 

19 that.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, exactly.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

241 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Now 

2 number 2 on this.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, that was 

4 another issue that we used a contact from SC&A 

5 that -- about the lagoon question and data for 

6 the lagoon and that got stopped cold.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: And you had no 

9 problems with his allowing access -- we 

10 interviewed him at the time and it didn't seem 

11 like it was any issue and then all of a sudden 

12 we couldn't get it.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, I know Scott 

14 Walker from a long time before so I threatened 

15 him with physical violence and he -- but he --

16 (Laughter.)

17 -- it worked until his boss told 

18 him he couldn't talk to me anymore.

19 But no, we had actually he was 

20 going to -- he got a group of people together 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

242 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 for me. We were going to go and discuss what 

2 years we wanted to look at, pull data out, he 

3 was pretty sure where all this data was, and 

4 go through it. 

5 But then it, right at that point, 

6 got stopped. So it's -- he really didn't, he 

7 was being quite helpful.

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, he sounded 

9 like he had the right information, which was 

10 you know, if you can have some 

11 characterization information regarding the 

12 concentrations of tritium in the pond you can 

13 go from there to come up with some kind of 

14 immersion dose, which is the answer to 

15 whatever the -- whatever you can come up with 

16 on that.

17 MEMBER BEACH: And that just went 

18 back to budget as well?

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes. All they want 

20 was to --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

243 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER BEACH: Making sure it was 

2 budget and not something else.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: No, not the death 

4 threats. 

5 (Laughter)

6 No, it was a day after he agreed 

7 to that, I got an email in the morning saying 

8 "I don't know what happened but they told me 

9 cease and desist on all activities." So it 

10 went right back to the budget and then we 

11 started talking and found out what the problem 

12 was.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, so moving 

14 on to item 6. 

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Okay, this one is -

16 - 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Special tritium 

18 compounds.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Special tritium 

20 compounds. What I would like to do is, Bob 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

244 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Burns are you out there? Bob?

2 MR. BURNS: Yes.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Since this is a 27-

4 page one, could you -- if you read this it 

5 does start on page 37 and ends up on page 44, 

6 and instead of reading through this, could you 

7 give just a summary of the type of things that 

8 show that basically that these tritium 

9 questions would not be a -- would not have 

10 been a problem from a radiological control 

11 standpoint due to these activities.

12 So could you just give a little 

13 run through there, Bob?

14 MR. BURNS: Okay, well what I 

15 attempted to do was to summarize, since it's 

16 hard to -- we haven't had, as we have 

17 discussed numerous times, we haven't had the 

18 opportunity to go back to LANL and really run 

19 these things to ground.

20 So I had to approach it more 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

245 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 generically with the information we had and 

2 just applying references. But at LANL you have 

3 both operations with tritide salts and special 

4 tritium compounds and you also had tritium gas 

5 facilities.

6 So I just tried to give a general 

7 overview of the types of materials you would 

8 expect at those kinds of facilities. Then in 

9 addition I looked at how the -- like at Mound 

10 for instance, where they had -- how they 

11 handled the issue of potential special tritium 

12 compounds being a component of their general 

13 contamination if you will, general tritium 

14 contamination. That's basically the summary of 

15 all this.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, Kathy do 

17 you want to weigh in on this?

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Do you want to go 

19 through the whole seven pages?

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Kathy, do you 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

246 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 want to weigh in on this or are you on the 

2 line?

3 She may not be on the line. Okay, 

4 basically our concern is that the less soluble 

5 STCs, tritides were handled in specific parts 

6 of the weapons complex, and we know Mound 

7 figured prominently, on the fabrication side 

8 and so did Los Alamos as well, and there is 

9 information in Germantown, but because it is 

10 secure information, as far as source terms, 

11 and the identity of some of the compounds that 

12 would be of concern.

13 And it's not so much tritium 

14 operations writ large that's the issue, as 

15 much as just being aware of the operations 

16 that handled the specific compounds and like 

17 with Mound, being able to identify the --

18 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Hi, Joe I 

19 got cut off.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Oh. Well I will 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

247 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 give you first right to refusal since you have 

2 probably looked into this a bit more than I 

3 have, if you want to sort of outline the 

4 tritide issue.

5 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, the 

6 way that I broke it down was that there's 

7 really two processes that result in, let's 

8 say, special tritium compounds.

9 The first is actual work like Bob 

10 says, actual operations with special tritium 

11 compounds including stable metal tritides at 

12 LANL.

13 The second part of this is in 

14 facilities that handle a great throughput of 

15 tritium, diffusion and reactivity can produce 

16 special tritium compounds, and I guess I have 

17 a question as far as the write-up that was 

18 produced by NIOSH, and that question is that 

19 you are saying that the relative production 

20 associated with diffusion and reactivity is 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

248 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 very small.

2 My question to you is does that 

3 mean you are not going to calculate the dose 

4 for that?

5 MR. BURNS: Well I can answer the 

6 -- well I can't answer whether or not we are 

7 going to calculate dose. That's not my call. 

8 But if we want to discuss -- I have some ideas 

9 or suggestions on how we would do that if 

10 anyone cares.

11 But as far as assigning that dose 

12 or not is not my call. 

13 MEMBER MUNN: We always care.

14 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, Greg 

15 do you have any feeling for that because you 

16 know, a lot of this write-up is that it's less 

17 than one percent, which we really haven't had 

18 an opportunity to dig it all the literature 

19 available on diffusion and reactivity.

20 So we have been told by Savannah 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

249 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 River folks that this is a big issue, and we 

2 have an interview summary that is going to 

3 come out from our LANL interviews shortly, and 

4 they also discuss the problems with handling a 

5 lot of tritium and production of tritium

6 particulate as a result of corrosion of metal 

7 products, and they talk about the fact that 

8 really, up until the '90s, they weren't paying 

9 attention to this. They didn't understand it. 

10 They didn't have it well characterized and 

11 they are still developing the capacity to deal 

12 with this.

13 So do you have any feel for 

14 whether it is --

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, there's two 

16 things, one is that because the issue also, 

17 some of the things are going to be classified 

18 in this work, that we would have to go and 

19 look at classified documents to also get a 

20 better handle on that question.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

250 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 But the second thing is, again, 

2 because this SEC is involved with the group of 

3 people that it is involved with, what is the 

4 potential dose in looking at these standards 

5 and how things were controlled that you were 

6 going to have the tritide be a major component 

7 to -- exposure to the Class of workers that we 

8 are talking about in this SEC, because again, 

9 that would be a tritium worker who we do need 

10 to go and take a look at the classified stuff.

11 But as far as the other group of 

12 unmonitored workers who would be a person 

13 passing through or someone spending a short 

14 time in there compared to the full-time worker 

15 in that area, is this -- is the issue large 

16 for that person? 

17 That's -- that to me is where I 

18 think the controls apply much more to this 

19 Class of workers at the SEC, the SEC.

20 DR. NETON: Well, let me just say, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

251 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 if there is a dose there, to be estimated, it 

2 needs to be included whether it's large or 

3 not. That's the way we operate in the end. We 

4 can't ignore doses even if it's one percent of 

5 the dose. We need to account for it in some 

6 fashion.

7 DR. MACIEVIC: Well I do believe 

8 in the TBD we do compute tritium doses, so it 

9 would be what, how much are you extending the 

10 --

11 DR. NETON: It would be an 

12 estimate of what -- yes.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: -- because of that.

14 DR. NETON: I think Kathy's 

15 original question was were we going to add it 

16 or not, and the question is we will, at some 

17 amount of dose.

18 DR. MACIEVIC: Right, right.

19 MR. FITZGERALD: It sort of sure 

20 sounds like this is sort of, again, a classic 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

252 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 exposure potential inquiry, meaning that you 

2 are just trying to characterize the source 

3 term in terms of what was there, what could 

4 have been the source of exposure, was it 

5 meaningful and who might have been exposed?

6 I mean just answering that basic 

7 question at least would get you to the point 

8 where you are going to know what you are going 

9 to need for that, or what you can do about it.

10 I think we are still at the early 

11 process and not quite --

12 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, yes exactly, 

13 I mean as far as characterizing the dose for 

14 this, for a full-time worker in a tritium 

15 facility for these tritides, we don't have a 

16 handle on it yet, that we would have to go 

17 back to the site and dig up more information 

18 on that.

19 The trick to me is going to be, 

20 then, going from that and saying okay, this 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

253 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 guy who was working here all the time and gets 

2 x, how are you applying it to these people 

3 passing through?

4 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, at Mound we 

5 started there and then established a -- who 

6 the relevant workers are, and not 

7 surprisingly, the operators were one part of 

8 it, but the maintenance and support personnel 

9 were another part of it.

10 So actually I would argue that 

11 they could be a more relevant part of it, so 

12 it's -- without going through and 

13 characterizing it is hard to know what the 

14 significance is to what worker population.

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, and yes, you 

16 would have to go in and we would have to take 

17 a look at these classified documents at the 

18 site on specific things that they were doing 

19 to find out what -- the extent of the problem.

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, and this 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

254 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 was flagged throughout the DOE complex as a 

2 big deal, because of the dosimetry 

3 implications, and it's arguably a big deal 

4 when you don't have sealed components, which 

5 we wouldn't have in a laboratory environment 

6 either on the front end or the back end of 

7 this, either in the fabrication or in the 

8 research and dismantlement or whatever.

9 So, I think Mound and Los Alamos 

10 represent the two poles of this question that 

11 needs to be addressed and --

12 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And I think 

13 with diffusion and reactivity, the biggest 

14 concern there is actually when you get into 

15 maintenance and D&D, because now you start 

16 tearing things apart that were once contained.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: And that's part 

18 of the characterization and exposure math.

19 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: With -- now 

20 the other, I guess, question I had, was I got 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

255 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 done reading your input and I wasn't sure how 

2 you were going to assign dose from STCs.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: That is not 

4 discussed in this section, the actual 

5 application of dose, because we don't have all 

6 the information yet on that particular issue, 

7 as far as what contribution you would have 

8 through those other documents.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's actually 

10 item 2 on this, but I don't think you get to -

11 - right.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Right.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We haven't had 

14 issue 2 yet.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Dosimetric 

16 approach yes.

17 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: So we don't 

18 have a dose reconstruction process for this 

19 yet?

20 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, what Mark 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

256 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 was saying, that was the second part of the 

set of actions from November 3rd 2 but the first 

3 part is the actual treatment of exposure and 

4 normal operations so that part has to happen 

5 first.

6 MEMBER BEACH: Except for this says 

7 see six one five four. On page 45 of NIOSH's 

8 write-up. It just referred to that for the 

9 first time.

10 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, obviously 

11 this has to be linked to actual going to the 

12 site and doing more work with this, is part of 

13 getting a perspective on this dose.

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

15 MR. BURNS: I think what they did 

16 at Mound, as I understand it, was essentially 

17 they would assign two intakes. They would use 

18 their surface contamination data and relate 

19 that to air concentration through resuspension 

20 factors or whatever, but they would treat that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

257 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 as the tritide component of the intake and 

2 then they would use the urinalysis results as 

3 is, if you will, and then assign them --

4 assign that intake as the soluble component.

5 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I don't 

6 think that message has been agreed upon.

7 DR. NETON: No, that's --

8 MR. FITZGERALD: That's in draft.

9 DR. NETON: -- draft form.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: That's the first 

11 time we have heard it.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it sounds 

13 very interesting though.

14 MEMBER BEACH: I was just going to 

15 say, that doesn't sound --

16 DR. NETON: I don't think that's 

17 going to be --

18 (Simultaneous speaking.)

19 MR. FITZGERALD: That method has 

20 been proposed though in Pantex.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

258 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

2 (Simultaneous speaking.)

3 MEMBER MUNN: Well, it's a lot of 

4 tritium.

5 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, that might 

6 be something to talk about.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

8 DR. MACIEVIC: You've got six two 

9 also involved because that talks about six one 

10 referring back there.

11 MEMBER BEACH: So back to Kathy's 

12 question, the dose reconstruction, you are 

13 going to defer back to Kathy and have a site 

14 visit and --

15 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes. 

16 MEMBER BEACH: -- it's actually 

17 part of one instead of two?

18 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Can I make 

19 one other comment, and that is that there's a 

20 couple of documents at DOE headquarters from 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

259 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 LANL that should be reviewed and I am just 

2 letting you know that they are there.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you have a 

4 document, or descriptions of -- where are you 

5 saying these are at?

6 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: They are 

7 related to tritium.

8 MEMBER BEACH: In Germantown?

9 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And they 

10 are in Germantown.

11 DR. MACIEVIC: Should I just ask 

12 for those documents that Kathy says?

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Isn't there 

14 an inventory?

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, there is an 

16 inventory but what I can do is I am close to 

17 Germantown, is just get it into a folder for 

18 Greg so he doesn't have to ask a bunch of 

19 questions about where it is. We will just put 

20 it in a folder and have your name on it 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

260 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 something.

2 I will work with you Kathy, to 

3 make sure I am not missing anything. 

4 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: The easiest 

5 thing to do is to search for the LANL 

6 documents.

7 MR. KATZ: And there's a data 

8 capture visit in June already, so I don't know 

9 if that works for you but that might be --

10 MEMBER BEACH: I was going to 

11 suggest that I -- this group might want to 

12 look at that since most of us will already be 

13 there. 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think 

15 there's a lot of overlap. 

16 MR. KATZ: I was just saying that 

17 for Greg's benefit because he is not involved 

18 in Pantex.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right. 

20 DR. NETON: Just for the record, I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

261 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 just remembered, that surface contamination 

2 issue was proposed at Pinellas, not Pantex.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Where?

4 DR. NETON: Pinellas.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, we can 

6 move on to item 7.

7 DR. MACIEVIC: Referring back to 

8 item 3, action item 2. So the issue, yes 

9 issue 3, action item 2, that is referring back 

10 to -- unmonitored exposures for service 

11 personnel.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And we -- I 

13 just don't want to lose this one. Is it --

14 covered in issue three and two? Drop off in 

15 bioassay? Is that the right issue?

16 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

17 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, drop off in 

18 bioassay and that refers back to the site 

19 again.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And this is the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

262 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 same issue or at least a subset of that issue, 

2 right, I guess?

3 MR. FITZGERALD: Right, it's a 

4 subset of the issue. You know, we did a 

5 sampling and we found the bioassays but the 

6 number of bioassays decreased markedly with 

7 the backing off of the support workers and the 

8 guards from routine bioassays, so --

9 MEMBER BEACH: '76 to 2005. 

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right as 

11 long as everybody is agreed, I'll assume it's 

12 part of the other item.

13 MEMBER MUNN: And so all we are 

14 trying to do is identify why? I wondered about 

15 that when we were talking about three. The 

16 only question is, why was there a reduction in 

17 the number of assay reports, correct?

18 MR. FITZGERALD: It may be as 

19 basic as looking at whether it's an 835, you 

20 know, you're going to be assumed less than 100 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

263 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 millirem per year type of threshold and 

2 therefore you are not going to be monitored or 

3 something, I don't know. It's just certainly 

4 when LANL made the decision as did a lot of 

5 other DOE sites, they had a basis for deciding 

6 who wasn't the bioassay, and I think that's 

7 just a review to see what the rationale was 

8 and on what basis data did they use to say 

9 somebody was -- a group of workers was going 

10 to be below 100 millirem.

11 MEMBER MUNN: That was pretty 

12 common, wasn't that in --

13 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes it was, and I 

14 think this is just a check on that since it 

15 was a pretty big drop off -- I think the 

16 guards went back on, didn't they bioassay? A 

17 couple of years ago, so they are maybe 

18 revisiting some of these decisions.

19 MEMBER MUNN: I'm just surprised 

20 that's not easily identifiable information.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

264 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I thought 

2 this was just additional -- it says here 

3 additional follow up on the basis for the 

4 bioassay program with that as a backdrop, so I 

5 don't think it was anything more significant.

6 MEMBER MUNN: It's not really a 

7 technical issue. I think it's an 

8 administrative one. 

9 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, just -- I 

10 think it was a question that was raised in the 

11 last Work Group meeting and it wasn't a ready 

12 answer and so I think it was just one just to 

13 cross that t.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, and we 

15 are into the last section of the matrix now, 

16 which is the petitioner raised questions, and 

17 I think this is where we tried to summarize 

18 some of Andrew's and the ones that were in the 

19 petition itself and ones that you have raised 

20 since then. I think we tried to capture them 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

265 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 in the matrix.

2 Do you have those in your 

3 response, Greg? Yes, you have at least some of 

4 them, yes. So item 1 is -- this is about a 

5 discrepancy in an SEC report.

6 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, we had -- per 

7 that eleven three statement that no further 

8 action was -- the issue was clarified.

9 MR. EVASKOVICH: Yes, we resolved 

10 that the last time. Basically I think it was 

11 one report said it was dealing with TuPo data, 

12 but one report said 1980 and one said 1990, 

13 but since all the data is there, and it's 

14 available, that's why we it was resolved that 

15 way.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right then 

17 the second item which I list here now as 1.2 

18 in the matrix.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: We say see NIOSH 

20 issued a response to -- response to issue 2, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

266 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 item 1, which is that issue about the exotics 

2 and the descriptions of the exotics. But I 

3 don't believe, in looking through here, the 

4 firing site is mentioned in the listing of 

5 buildings that is on here, my quick look back 

6 over this.

7 So I think we need to revise what 

8 we are talking about in issue 2.1, but also 

9 throw the firing sites into that issue and 

10 specifically say it because I thought we had 

11 addressed it here but it's not in there, 

12 through all the different sites or buildings.

13 

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay so that is 

15 a follow up action, and I will go back to that 

16 exotic discussion, right?

17 DR. MACIEVIC: Right.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 1.3 now.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Let's see, 1.3. Our 

20 response was that the SRDB was reviewed to 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

267 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 determine whether there is information showing 

2 that access to specific areas of Los Alamos 

3 site was controlled by the electronic badges. 

4 There's no documents describing such 

5 practices as a general program at Los Alamos. 

6 So there wasn't any there. So I'm trying to 

7 remember exactly what the badge access to it -

8 - and whether we were saying -- do you 

9 remember how you questioned on the badge 

10 access because we -- basically you don't find 

11 -- that some areas were and that there's 

12 nothing describing such practices throughout 

13 in the SRDB.

14 MR. EVASKOVICH: Well I think, 

15 especially with LAMPF that's an issue because 

16 there's the employee assistance program is 

17 located in TA-53 so -- and basically it's just 

18 a badge check for people who get in as opposed 

19 to some areas that are more restrictive, so I 

20 think the concerns, or at least the one I am 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

268 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 expressing, is -- and I'm using this as an 

2 example -- is that, you know, a lot of workers 

3 can't have access to the area based on that, 

4 and they can either have a visitor's badge or 

5 you know, visitors go in there or an uncleared 

6 badge.

7 So you know, there is that 

8 potential, especially when we are dealing with 

9 releases to the air from the effluent. I think 

10 that's what I am trying to explain or at least 

11 --

12 MEMBER MUNN: Is that Andrew 

13 speaking?

14 MR. EVASKOVICH: Yes, it is. 

15 Sorry, my voice is not very --

16 MEMBER MUNN: Andrew, this is 

17 Wanda, I can hardly hear you, you are far away 

18 from the mic.

19 MR. EVASKOVICH: Well, my voice 

20 isn't too good either.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

269 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MEMBER MUNN: Oh, that's all 

2 right, I think I got it, I just wanted you to 

3 know, you can hardly be heard --

4 MR. EVASKOVICH: Okay, I'll try.

5 MEMBER MUNN: -- out here in the 

6 brush.

7 MEMBER BEACH: But you're hearing 

8 it's just a badge check so anybody can go in 

9 and out of there?

10 MR. EVASKOVICH: Yes, the controls 

11 are different there than say at TA-55 because 

12 there's electronic badge readers at TA-55 and, 

13 you know, and then so the concern is, you 

14 know, for and it kind of goes back to my 

15 trying to understand how you are going to 

16 apply dose to people if you don't know they 

17 are in the area or have the potential to be 

18 exposed.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, that would go 

20 back to an environmental response for 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

270 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 unmonitored workers for people, anybody who we 

2 are going to have to supply a dose to, who has 

3 no dosimetry, and we are looking into the 

4 things that Joe had sent. We had that with 

5 the writers of the environmental TBD and are 

6 looking at those comments, and looking to do 

7 an application through the environmental TBD.

8 So that is something that will 

9 have to be addressed in that issue because 

10 that will be -- because most of these people 

11 are not going to be monitored for anything or 

12 -- because this facility -- and in other 

13 facilities where they may enter or not, or 

14 pass through, but that will have to be an 

15 environmental issue for --

16 DR. NETON: I'm trying to wonder, 

17 does this, is there something in one of our 

18 documents that says that we will use access 

19 control to differentiate who is going to get 

20 what dose because I don't -- we don't do that, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

271 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 not to my knowledge

2 MR. EVASKOVICH: Well, I think, 

3 well, just from the discussion at the last 

4 meeting, I think that's why I wasn't clear on 

5 something at the last meeting that made me ask 

6 the question --

7 DR. MACIEVIC: Well I think we may 

8 have been talking about -- I mean restrictions 

9 in going into and out of buildings, but as far 

10 as a non-monitored person, we would not be 

11 using, I mean, that would not be used as a key 

12 for saying whether or not a person would get 

13 an exposure that by saying, well, because this 

14 was an electronic monitoring -- or electronic 

15 badge entry, therefore if you weren't on that 

16 system, you are not going to get any dose 

17 applied to you for environmental ambient dose, 

18 if you got a cancer. So you will get that 

19 dose, whether or not there's badge access or 

20 not, if you are not monitored for radiation.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

272 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. EVASKOVICH: I think just 

2 determining access to -- or as a means of 

3 placing people in the areas.

4 DR. MACIEVIC: Oh, yes, again, 

5 that would not be -- like we were talking 

6 about with the guards and firemen and people 

7 going in and out of areas to try to place 

8 people over a 20 to 30 year period, say where 

9 they were at different times, it would have to 

10 be an overall exposure based on a model like 

11 TIB-18 which is another one of these things we 

12 were looking at a modification for, as a 

13 possibility to look at all the radionuclide 

14 potential that you could also have a subset 

15 for LANL in that TBD and then -- or that TIB -

16 - and apply it in the cases like this because 

17 there was a couple of ways of approaching this 

18 for -- since we are now reviewing the 

19 environmental model, how we will apply the 

20 environmental ambient dose to non-monitored 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

273 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 people.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you keep 

3 saying environmental or ambient dose applied 

4 but --

5 DR. MACIEVIC: Well I'm assuming -

6 - 

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- a coworker, 

8 you're not --

9 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, the coworker 

10 dose, there's going to be -- well we'd have to 

11 use the coworker dose as a potential subset 

12 within something like TIB-18 where you have --

13 covers all radionuclides to give you an 

14 internal dose for overestimating purposes for 

15 a person.

16 This would be, in this case, you 

17 would use a subset or a separate section 

18 within -- this is of course all discussion 

19 points that we are looking at now, have a 

20 subset inside of that document where you would 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

274 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 use that as a best estimate for particular 

2 people going through the area and assign a 

3 dose based on the coworker dose models. 

4 Because, see, one of the --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So the 

6 assumption, I think, where the control thing 

7 came up is the assumption is that this access 

8 control was tight enough that if you were in 

9 that area you --

10 DR. NETON: See, we have abandoned 

11 that. Remember that the original SEC that we

12 had it was based on the -- that we thought we 

13 knew where people worked in different areas, 

14 and it became very clear to us that we 

15 couldn't partition that in any reasonable way, 

16 so we made that all workers at Los Alamos for 

17 the early class because of that.

18 And so I don't think there's any 

19 way that we are going to be able to segregate 

20 workers at different areas of the site. If it 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

275 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 was -- if they -- looks like they were not 

2 monitored and they didn't need to be 

3 monitored, they would get environmental dose, 

4 and it would be based on some environmental 

5 dose, probably the largest receptor site at 

6 the site.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But how do 

8 determine didn't need to be monitored? That's 

9 the judgment part, right?

10 DR. NETON: That's that TIB that I 

11 brought up at the last meeting, you know, it's 

12 professional judgement combined with -- the 

13 profile of the worker.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, can I ask 

15 Don, Don Stewart are you out there?

16 MR. STEWART: Yes I am, Greg.

17 DR. MACIEVIC: Could you just 

18 chime in? Do you remember that in the last 

19 meeting, we were talking about the badge 

20 access and all that, and doing dose 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

276 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 applications?

2 MR. STEWART: The subject came up 

3 at, I believe it was in relation to how do we 

4 demonstrate that somebody was not exposed to 

5 something, say at the accelerators? Could we 

6 go back and look at their badge access, what 

7 they had?

8 If they weren't allowed in that 

9 area then we wouldn't have to consider that 

10 dose, but as Jim said, we really don't do that 

11 typically for sites, we don't look at badge 

12 access that a particular person would have.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well this could 

14 be quickly answered if we could just say NIOSH 

15 is not going to apply a policy of using the 

16 badge access --

17 DR. MACIEVIC: And we're not.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- for dose 

19 reconstruction determination.

20 DR. MACIEVIC: No, we won't use 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

277 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 badge access because it would be -- you would 

2 also have to show that that badge access was 

3 working from 1976.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I think the 

5 further discussion is the question of this 

6 judgement, and we will have to look back at 

7 your document I remember, but --

8 DR. NETON: Well there's 

9 unmonitored, but there is also the matter of 

10 who is going to get what coworker dose, and 

11 that is all tied up in what we talked about 

12 all this morning, I mean that's all about you 

13 know, who got these exotics and when, and that 

14 kind of thing. That's still under some 

15 significant debate here.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I think 

17 there might be a debate on any of that where 

18 you are assigning environmental or are you 

19 assigning a coworker --

20 DR. NETON: That's a complex-wide 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

278 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 issue, I mean if you have a -- an 

2 administrative support personnel such as 

3 secretaries and that sort of thing that never 

4 really entered areas where material was 

5 processed --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But then you're 

7 going to get into some grey areas.

8 DR. NETON: You do.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that's all 

10 I'm saying. We can end the badge access issue 

11 by saying that you are not planning on using 

12 that as a determination for dose.

13 Okay. Then the fourth item. 

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Let's see. I 

15 thought that was -- yes, no further action was 

16 required based on that question.

17 DR. NETON: This is the difference 

18 between a checklist and occupational health 

19 reports.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay so then 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

279 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the fifth item.

2 DR. MACIEVIC: The fifth item is 

3 Joe did send us the responses or the 

4 discussion or questions about the 

5 environmental TBD, and as I said a little 

6 earlier, that we are now -- we have got it 

7 with the environmental TBD writers and we are 

8 now -- the responses to that and also looking 

9 at ways of incorporating what we talked about 

10 into the about unmonitored individuals into 

11 that TBD. 

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Joe, maybe you 

13 can just give us an overview of what you --

14 your response.

15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, this is the 

16 -- you should have a copy of the February 2nd 

17 memo, and the last two pages are the 

18 comparison of the 2004 version of the 

19 environmental TBD with the 2010 version.

20 And let me see, we have a couple 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

280 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 of places where we believe that additional 

2 clarification would be useful, and one of 

3 those is -- I guess this notion of selecting 

4 radionuclides of significance that have 

5 contributed at least one millirem of committed 

6 dose and using that, from the standpoint of a 

7 CEDE and reading the TBD we -- that didn't 

8 jump out as to how you are going to do that, 

9 and I think that was the point of 

10 clarification on that.

11 And the questions we had, would 

12 there be instance, for example, where 

13 contributions from MAPs, mixed activation 

14 products, or volatile particulates would be 

15 masked or neglected because of the 

16 individual's large existing CEDE for plutonium 

17 and uranium, is the 50 year committed 

18 effective dose equivalent cited as a criterion 

19 to be limited to environmental issues or 

20 effluents? We presume that, but that is not 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

281 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 clearly stated. 

2 And I guess in general, what's the 

3 difference between the two approaches in terms 

4 of, you know, what kind of results you are 

5 going to get from the 2004 to 2010, using that 

6 approach. 

7 So some clarifications really on 

8 that. It's not clear from the 2010 or 2004 

9 whether the occupational environmental source 

10 of exposure from LAMPF or LANSCE were fully 

11 considered and whether the tabular source data 

12 in the appendices addressed that.

13 So these are a lot of clarifying 

14 questions. I think the biggest issues, though, 

15 let's see, this question of adequacy of the 

16 stack monitoring release points, given that 

17 there was an EPA NESHAPs compliance issue, I 

18 guess in the '90s, in terms of whether or not 

19 all of the stacks were monitored and whether 

20 that has any implications for whether those 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

282 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 release points are adequate. Let's see.

2 And sort of a big one for me was 

3 the 2004 TBD I think pointed to resuspension 

4 as a source term worth further investigation. 

5 It sort of was a spaceholder in the 2004 TBD. 

6 This is the question of resuspension from 

7 contaminated or residual contamination on the 

8 ground.

9 And what puts this in some 

10 contrast is we had some workers that we 

11 interviewed talk about the fact -- and these 

12 are support service workers where they were 

13 doing maintenance under buildings, through 

14 crawl spaces, places like that.

15 They would come back and 

16 apparently be pretty contaminated, you know, 

17 so the question of where in fact do you have 

18 contamination on the site and is the 

19 resuspension of that contamination an issue 

20 that ought to be addressed in the TBD?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

283 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 And it looked like it was 

2 acknowledged in 2004, but there wasn't enough 

3 investigation to support a conclusion at that 

4 point. So there was a reference there.

5 In 2010 it disappears, but there's 

6 nothing new addressing that, so that was an 

7 open question of how is the resuspension 

8 question, the notion that outside of stack 

9 releases, the other -- another source of 

10 exposure for workers, particularly support 

11 service workers within just plain residual 

12 contamination at the site, and workers being 

13 exposed directly to that contamination.

14 So that was certainly another 

15 issue and then, Cerro Grande you have 

16 addressed in the White Paper. That's not 

17 addressed in the TBD. I'm not sure whether 

18 that was waiting for this type of assessment. 

19 I don't recall that being addressed anyway. 

20 DR. MACIEVIC: No, not in the TBD.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

284 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. So that's 

2 kind of a thumbnail. Like I said, it's a 

3 number of specific questions. I think the 

4 resuspension issue is the biggest one for me 

5 because I think in terms of exposure, that 

6 probably would be, for support service 

7 workers, that would be as important as stack 

8 releases depending on what kind of work you 

9 do.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: That is pending 

11 our review of those questions to incorporate 

12 so --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Item 1.6.

14 DR. MACIEVIC: And, again, we 

15 refer back to issue 2.1 in this document, so 

16 it's back to that same question of the 

17 actinides and all that. And we will be 

18 addressing more of those source term issues 

19 with the exotics in our response to that 

20 question.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

285 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So it's going 

2 back to the exotics, is that it?

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, that question 

4 where, you know, the descriptions with the 

5 polonium and curium and americium activity. 

6 And also adding about the firing sites.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And this covers 

8 -- not being familiar with the SEC petition, 

9 pages 46 through 60, I mean are there other 

10 areas where there are specific areas outlined 

11 in there, I'm sure there were, where there was 

12 concern about characterization?

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, we were 

14 covering, I mean the response in 2.1 was to 

15 say these are the areas where we are talking 

16 about the actinides had the biggest presence 

17 and those type of source terms.

18 There were no other source terms. 

19 I know we talked about waste disposal and 

20 things like that as a potential source term, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

286 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 but that would have to be addressed in the 

2 environmental response.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Well 

4 that's what I was getting at, is this just 

5 exotics or is it just other areas that are not 

6 characterized. And you are saying the other 

7 areas that aren't characterized have been 

8 covered from -- under environmental?

9 DR. MACIEVIC: Because we 

10 addressed it in terms of -- from what the 

11 discussion more with these -- and locations of 

12 those sources but then I remember we also 

13 talked about the sources of buried waste and 

14 things like that, which there is a listing of.

15 MR. EVASKOVICH: Yes, there is. I 

16 have some examples here that I pulled up. 

17 Dealing with a record from it -- this is 

18 Andrew Evaskovich.

19 The report says usually, there's a 

20 section that says these sites required further 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

287 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 investigation to determine if they pose a 

2 threat to human health and the environment.

3 And some of the examples I've got 

4 here are TA-3-030D septic system, and this is 

5 just a section that I pulled out of the fact 

6 sheet for the releases.

7 And type of release, antimony; 

8 calcium; copper; iron; lead; mercury; 

9 selenium; silver; zinc; neptunium-237; 

10 plutonium-239, 240; uranium-235; and organics.

11 In TA-2-011A, storm drain and 

12 outfall, type of release, cesium-137, 

13 strontium-90, technetium-99, cobalt-60, 

14 tritium, uranium, isotopic plutonium, 

15 mercury, and chromium.

16 TA-3-007 firing site, type of 

17 release copper; bismuth-211, 212, 214; cesium18 137; lead-212, 214; radium-224; thallium-228; 

19 organics; thorium; and HE.

20 TA-4-004. Soil contamination. Type 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

288 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 of release photographic chemicals, 

2 radionuclides, beryllium, lead, aluminum, HE, 

3 terbium, terbium oxide, and unspecified 

4 laboratory chemicals.

5 TA-9-012, disposal pit. Type of 

6 release unknown. I include that one because at 

7 the Board meeting we had in Sante Fe in 

8 November, one of the guards mentioned doing a 

9 training exercise and they found out later it 

10 was a hot dump, and I think this might be the 

11 location that he was talking about. And it's 

12 been uncharacterized, but it's referred to as 

13 a hot dump.

14 TA-15-001, surface disposal, this 

15 is called the bone yard. Type of release, HE, 

16 lead, uranium, beryllium, radionuclides, and 

17 other unknowns.

18 TA-16-005M, chemical pit 

19 decommissioned, type of release, undetonated 

20 HE, HE degradation, HE burn products, uranium, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

289 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 depleted and enriched radium, cobalt, 

2 strontium-90 and barium.

3 TA-20-003B, firing site, type of 

4 release, strontium-90, radionuclides, metals, 

5 uranium-235, and lead. 

6 TA-35-003R, effluent receiving 

7 canyon. Type of release, inorganic chemicals, 

8 organic chemicals, PCBs, and radionuclides.

9 TA-39-002A, storage area. Type of 

10 release, systematic release of solid waste 

11 including RCRA regulated constituents. There 

12 is potential for radioactive contamination 

13 from stored debris at the site. Solvents were 

14 also stored at the site. 

15 TA-42-002A, former structures, and 

16 this is currently in TA-55 now, near building 

17 66. That's a decommissioned site. 

18 Radionuclides; americium-241; cesium-137; 

19 lanthanum-140; plutonium-238, 239; tritium; 

20 uranium-235; unspecified fission products; 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

290 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 acids; and organic compounds.

2 TA-43-001B2, outfall. Type of 

3 release, radionuclides, sanitary waste, 

4 cooling water.

5 TA-46-004, outfall B. Type of 

6 release, barium, cadmium, copper, lead, 

7 mercury, nickel, silver, zinc, and uranium 

8 isotopes. Mercury and uranium isotopes were 

9 found above screening action levels and 

10 uranium-234, uranium-235 and uranium-238 were 

11 above background.

12 And I included those basically 

13 because -- and these are just some of them 

14 now, not all the sites listed in the fact 

15 sheet contain radionuclides. A lot of them are 

16 chemical releases. 

17 But there are radionuclide 

18 releases but a lot of them are commons but 

19 there are some that it just says radionuclides 

20 and that's I think the concern, because they 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

291 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 are saying that these need to be evaluated to 

2 see if they are still a threat -- or to the 

3 environment or human health, but it only says 

4 radionuclides.

5 I think you have to look at that, 

6 and that's the point that I have been trying 

7 to make as far as dealing with these. And the 

8 ones I picked were outfalls, and there are 

9 some others, or you know, I think these show 

10 more potential for exposure than some of the 

11 others as well because some of them are like 

12 septic systems or drainage lines.

13 But my concern is if you have a 

14 release to the environment in like the guards, 

15 fire fighters are running around in the 

16 canyons, either guards were doing training 

17 exercises or fire fighters were fighting 

18 fires, some of these are near older buildings, 

19 and you have the craftsperson out working near 

20 them, my concern is what is the potential for 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

292 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 exposure, you know, can you guys determine 

2 that and the -- exposure pathway, and then 

3 what is the risk incurred from that. I think 

4 that's the point that I have been trying to 

5 make as far as identifying these source terms 

6 and the exposure pathways.

7 As far as dealing with the fire, a 

8 lot of -- there's a lot of sites that I listed 

9 starting on page 46, like I said, those are 

10 chemical releases and not necessarily all of 

11 them were radionuclide releases.

12 Because what I did is, in the maps 

13 that I included with the petition, showed all 

14 these sites as either potential release sites 

15 or areas of concern. So I just picked the 

16 ones that were inside the fire lines, I didn't 

17 go down and break it down to the ones that 

18 actually contained radionuclides.

19 You know, it would probably 

20 shorten the list, but you know that's the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

293 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 concern there.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I think we 

3 are probably right in dividing it into exotics 

4 versus these other environmental exposures 

5 where people are working around the site and 

6 the issue gets back to what Joe was saying is 

7 the -- if -- are the source terms 

8 characterized well enough, and can you figure 

9 out resuspension potential and exposure that 

10 way.

11 So I would kind of roll part of 

12 that into the last answer, 1.5 covers the 

13 environmental exposures and the adequacy to 

14 make sure we can -- the environmental model 

15 covers all these potentials.

16 MR. EVASKOVICH: And then if I can 

17 about the environmental model. As a result of 

18 the Clean Air Act lawsuit, the NESHAP that Joe 

19 was referring to, they had an audit team that 

20 went and conducted an audit as part of the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

294 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 resolution of the case.

2 And they questioned the historical 

3 data of releases, stack monitoring, because it 

4 did not meet the requirements, and I cite that 

5 in the petition.

6 The point from the report is the 

7 audit team determined that a lack of 

8 documentation regarding facility inventories 

9 severely precluded a thorough evaluation 

10 regarding the quality and completeness of the 

11 reported 1996 inventory.

12 Because of the lack of facility 

13 documentation, neither the audit team or even 

14 LANL could discern whether the reported 

15 inventory value is truly represented. So that 

16 kind of goes back to what I am saying as far 

17 as the inventories and the accuracy and the 

18 quality of the data.

19 Second the audit team reported 

20 LANL did not necessitate prompt recognition of 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

295 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 operational changes that could affect stack 

2 monitoring requirements. Groups identified 

3 changes only for new projects that needed 

4 additional funding. Laboratory personnel did 

5 not understand that they must evaluate all 

6 radionuclide usage despite of the amount 

7 regarding its potential to impact monitoring 

8 requirements.

9 Basically that's just saying that 

10 they didn't update their monitoring 

11 requirements according to changes in operation 

12 unless they thought new funding would be 

13 required for this new operation that they were 

14 picking up.

15 The filters that LANL uses to 

16 collect radionuclide samples, there were some 

17 issues that this report brought up. And they 

18 said that the LANL filters may not be thin 

19 enough to prevent self-absorption. As a 

20 result, gross alpha counting accuracy is 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

296 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 uncertain.

2 Then there's also a discussion 

3 concerning beryllium-7 sampling. During the

4 discussion it states that for beryllium-7, 

5 filter collection efficiency is quite poor. 

6 And I think that's interesting because you are 

7 referring to the air monitoring beryllium-7 to 

8 develop your ratio. So if the data isn't any 

9 good, then I think your ratio -- I think you 

10 need to look at this information as well.

11 And it wasn't, there's some 

12 additional -- there was a statement in there 

13 concerning holding of the activation products, 

14 I believe, and I think there was some 

15 discussion of that as well in that report, and 

16 they felt that LANL wasn't holding it long 

17 enough in order to allow for decay of the 

18 activation products coming from LAMPF.

19 So and I included this report as 

20 well, just the first report, and it was sent 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

297 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 in not in electronic format, but in paper 

2 format, because the copy I had was on paper. 

3 So you know, this -- I think that makes the 

4 point that I have been trying to make as far 

5 as the environmental monitoring.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

7 MEMBER MUNN: Question.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, go ahead, 

9 Wanda.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Perhaps I missed the 

11 first introductory comments with respect to 

12 the initial list of potential sources that was 

13 being read. What was the documentation or what 

14 was the source of that list of potential 

15 contaminants?

16 MR. EVASKOVICH: Hold on just a 

17 minute.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Where did that 

19 source come from that was incorporated into 

20 the SEC?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

298 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Andrew is 

2 getting that reference.

3 MR. EVASKOVICH: It's called Fact 

4 Sheet Appendix SMWUs and AOCs, and that comes 

5 from the RCRA permit that LANL submits to the 

6 New Mexico Environment Department, and it's 

7 like 500 some pages long, and it lists a 

8 variety of sites and issues that the NMED has 

9 with them and what they expect LANL to do with 

10 the sites.

11 MEMBER BEACH: You sent that 

12 around to us, didn't you, at some point?

13 MR. EVASKOVICH: I know it's 

14 included -- it was included in the petition 

15 because I refer to it.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

17 MEMBER MUNN: And I have also seen 

18 it in the SEC petition itself. I just -- it's 

19 been so long since I have glanced at it that I 

20 couldn't remember where it had come from.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

299 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 So I can check that. Which of the 

2 SECs was that, Andrew, which --

3 MR. EVASKOVICH: 109. 00109.

4 MEMBER MUNN: All right. Got it, 

5 thank you.

6 MR. EVASKOVICH: And I believe 

7 it's, well, I don't know, I am assuming you 

8 guys put everything on the hard drive. Is it 

9 on the O: drive?

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's 

11 somewhere on the O: drive.

12 MR. EVASKOVICH: Look for a fact -

13 - 

14 MEMBER MUNN: I didn't know what 

15 its reference was. I will find it.

16 MR. EVASKOVICH: Yes, look for 

17 fact sheet appendix.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Okay.

19 MR. EVASKOVICH: SMWUs and AOCs.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Got it.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

300 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. EVASKOVICH: And if need be, I 

2 can resubmit that.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I think we 

4 are fine. All right, I am going to divide 

5 that 1.6 up into two, you know, the other 

6 areas to expand on your exotics table, and 

7 then the other section environmental source 

8 terms, right, potential environmental source 

9 terms.

10 And 1.7 I think we can roll into 

11 that now, and this is the fire. I think you 

12 issued a White Paper on this, correct?

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, we did.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Maybe you can 

15 give us an overview and then Joe can --

16 DR. MACIEVIC: Well I can give a 

17 brief summary of what -- I can ask Don after I 

18 am done just to give anything to add if he 

19 wants. Basically we have a document by 

20 Everhart, a report that was generated in 2010, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

301 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 which has new numbers on the fire and an 

2 analysis and several indications of what 

3 calculations of the effects of the fire and 

4 the dose and all that, and these numbers were 

5 used in the White Paper using highly 

6 conservative breathing rates and models of 

7 time spent in fighting the fire to come up 

8 with a dose model, and the only dose model 

9 using these new numbers that has any 

10 significance is a dose rate, or a dose, total 

11 dose, of essentially 0.1 millirem for an 

12 assumed plutonium-238 absorption type S to the 

13 thoracic lymph nodes.

14 And so it's a very small number 

15 that they have come up with and using the 

16 numbers from that paper, so it basically has a 

17 very small contribution of all to the overall 

18 dose from the fire.

19 Don, would you like to add 

20 anything to that?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

302 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. STEWART: Well that's really 

2 essentially it. They did some fairly 

3 exhaustive sampling based on the sampling data 

4 that we do have. It is actually quite a wide 

5 range of concentrations that they measured, 

6 and some sites were clearly above other sites, 

7 and it's pretty interesting to see that list 

8 of sites if you want to go back and look at 

9 that restaurant -- reference. I don't remember 

10 exactly all of them now, but one of them was 

11 the McDonald's.

12 So, and that was a fairly high 

13 site. What the overwhelming exposure was in 

14 this case were naturally occurring radon 

15 progeny that had deposited on vegetation, and 

16 the fire, as fires always do by the way, 

17 resuspended that very effectively such that 

18 any man-made radionuclide contributions were 

19 very much smaller. But what we did was we took 

20 the maximum measured air concentrations and we 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

303 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 used them to come up with an intake based on a 

2 conservative breathing rate, and the doses 

3 were small.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Joe, did you 

5 guys have a chance to look at this?

6 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, we did, and 

7 I guess sort of following up on, I guess, 

8 comments that Andrew had raised at the last 

9 meeting, the averaging is based on a 

10 monitoring station that was deemed to be 

11 perhaps most representative of -- or a upper 

12 bound representative, maybe that's the way to 

13 say it, of the -- what was emitted during the 

14 fire -- one of the monitoring stations. That's

15 the LANL document.

16 And I think there was some 

17 question as to how representative would that 

18 have been of the -- what the individual 

19 firefighters would have been exposed to doing 

20 the procedures they were active in doing, one 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

304 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 of which was after the fire, sifting through 

2 ashes for some weeks and whether that would 

3 have been representative of the -- this gets 

4 into almost resuspension again, which has been 

5 talked about before that you know, on one had 

6 you have a fixed air monitoring station which 

7 is the basis for the averaging --

8 DR. MACIEVIC: Well let me ask 

9 Don. Don, was it, in the new report, is it one 

10 monitoring station that they are using these 

11 numbers from or is there new info?

12 MR. STEWART: Oh, in the Everhart 

13 report?

14 DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, in the 

15 Everhart report.

16 MR. FITZGERALD: The 2001, yes.

17 DR. MACIEVIC: No, in fact --

18 MR. STEWART: 2010.

19 DR. MACIEVIC: -- this was all the 

20 stations that they had. I simply took the 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

305 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 largest number. 

2 DR. MACIEVIC: Pardon me, I didn't 

3 hear the last part, what was that?

4 MR. STEWART: I simply took the 

5 largest number of any sampling station.

6 DR. MACIEVIC: From all the 

7 sampling --

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Of all the 

9 sampling stations.

10 DR. MACIEVIC: So, but it wasn't 

11 just one sampling situation?

12 MR. STEWART: No, sir, it was not. 

13 It was all the data that had been in the 

14 previous report, and they went through and 

15 they looked at them again, and yes, I look at 

16 all sampling stations, and it was interesting 

17 that some of the offsite stations were higher.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: Now how would you 

19 reconcile that with the actual work that -- I 

20 am going to use the fire fighters because I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

306 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 agree with your assumption that they are 

2 probably the bounding worker in this whole 

3 thing -- in terms of their actual up close and 

4 personal activity on the site, again it was 

5 raised, an example of going in to different 

6 TAs, sifting through ashes, making sure 

7 there's no hotspots, that whole thing, which 

8 would be a little different than I would think 

9 a area monitoring reading, but would be -- you 

10 know, you would be exposed to particulates, 

11 you would be exposed pretty much in the 

12 breathing zone.

13 I am just trying to figure out, I 

14 think that was raised by Andrew and others at 

15 the last session, and I think that was the 

16 question I still had.

17 MR. STEWART: Right, well, you 

18 know I tend to go back with my field 

19 experience and with our excavation controls, 

20 our rad controls. Typically our excavation 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

307 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 limits are very much higher than regular 

2 inside the facility limits, air monitoring 

3 limits.

4 And the reason is that the dust 

5 becomes a limiting factor. The area, the 

6 amount of time that a person can work due to 

7 dust control, all these particles are --

8 matrix to soil and other debris, if we control 

9 the dust, it seems to keep the concentrations 

10 down. 

11 I don't know if I am saying that 

12 very well, but certainly a concern, an 

13 additional concern when you are doing work of 

14 that nature, is to control the dust that you 

15 are breathing in, and I guess I would 

16 summarize it, what we found at Hanford was 

17 that that was a good way to index how much 

18 exposure you were getting, the amount oh 

19 golly, I am not saying this well -- you are 

20 talking about material that is spread all over 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

308 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the place, and it's in dirt and dust and soot 

2 particles, it's in all these other things.

3 

4 So, well, I couldn't really tell 

5 you. If you frame the question for me, in 

6 terms I could go and look at some references.

7 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I'm just 

8 going -- actually this is more the questioning 

9 I got from the firefighters we interviewed, I 

10 think even Andrew mentioned it, is that they--

11 MR. STEWART: Yes, questions like 

12 that can really --

13 MR. FITZGERALD: They have a 

14 problem with these --

15 MR. STEWART: I'd be more than 

16 willing to take a look at your question.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Just in 

18 general, they have a problem with these air 

19 monitoring sitting at McDonald's or whatever 

20 it is that's being a -- as a representative 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

309 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 sample, given the type of activities they are 

2 engaged in which may be, you know, in terms of 

3 firefighter, actually sifting the ashes by 

4 hand.

5 So I think trying to reconcile 

6 what they know they were doing versus what 

7 they read as these air samples that were being 

8 taken at these different locations that may or 

9 may not have been right on top of what they 

10 were doing, I think there's a -- that may be 

11 over-simplifying it, but I think that's sort 

12 of the basis for why there is this disconnect 

13 because their point is well no, that clearly -

14 - you know, I wasn't -- you know, in terms of 

15 ashes, in terms of resuspension, I was in the 

16 middle of it raking ashes for two or three 

17 weeks, and that's not going to be the same as 

18 an air monitor sitting on a pole over at 

19 McDonald's, or whatever, even the highest one, 

20 it wouldn't be the same.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

310 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 And I think that's where the 

2 disconnect may be. And I don't know how the 

3 Everhart analysis addresses that particular 

4 issue, but that's kind of what I get from 

5 talking to the firefighters that they had a 

6 real problem accepting that as representative.

7 MR. STEWART: Well, just a comment 

8 on the term representative. We often don't try 

9 to argue representativeness of our samples. In 

10 this case we simply took the highest number 

11 that was available, and we do that a lot in 

12 dose reconstruction as well.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Were there any 

14 bioassay samples or individual samples?

15 DR. NETON: It seems like these 

16 people would have had enough bioassay samples 

17 if they were sifting through --

18 MR. EVASKOVICH: No, the 

19 firefighters that we talked to, they said 

20 there was no bioassay for them after the fire, 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

311 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 and that was one of their concerns.

2 DR. NETON: And these are Los 

3 Alamos firefighters?

4 MR. EVASKOVICH: Well, the way the 

5 fire department is structured, they used to be 

6 DOE firefighters, but they went county back in 

7 the '90s and then they have a contract with 

8 the laboratory to provide fire protection 

9 services.

10 DR. NETON: I wonder if they are 

11 covered employees.

12 MR. EVASKOVICH: They are.

13 DR. NETON: Off site, off site 

14 based firefighters. I guess something around--

15 MR. EVASKOVICH: They are 

16 contracted to provide fire services, and they 

17 actually go though the buildings, not only do 

18 they fight fires, but they -- well they 

19 respond to fire alarms on LANL property, but 

20 they are also conducting fire protection 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

312 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 services as well.

2 MEMBER BEACH: Fire maintenance.

3 MR. EVASKOVICH: Yes, and they 

4 have to go through, and they have to check the 

5 fire alarm systems, and I think they are also 

6 -- I am not too sure if they review the fire 

7 suppression systems as well,

8 MEMBER BEACH: Yes, they would. 

9 They do on our site anyway.

10 DR. NETON: I would still be 

11 surprised if they didn't leave some samples.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

13 DR. NETON: We could check into 

14 that, I suppose. 

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think there 

16 is the question, the remaining question I 

17 think is that.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: I think it's the 

19 biggest issue, and having interviewed these 

20 people personally, I think clearly they see 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

313 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 the report, they see analysis and they say 

2 well, that doesn't strike a chord for them.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, it makes 

4 me wonder as well, yes.

5 MR. EVASKOVICH: Well the point 

6 that coincides with this is the fire wasn't 

7 declared out until July 20th, but you are 

8 referring to the 17 days of the actual, you 

9 know, when it's burning and material being 

10 burned, smoke in the air.

11 And the issue that I raised and I 

12 still haven't heard really addressed that well 

13 is the filters, the sampling filters were 

14 getting clogged because of all the particulate 

15 in the air, and one of the reports referenced 

16 the uncertainty in the data capture increased 

17 by an order of magnitude because of this.

18 And additionally when the fire was 

19 burning on LANL property, the air monitors 

20 were not working due to a loss of power. So 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

314 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 you are not capturing data for the actual fire 

2 itself, when it's on the laboratory property.

3 MR. STEWART: The report -- I'd 

4 have to make -- again -- the report does 

5 mention that some samples were not available 

6 because there was power losses. Overall 

7 coverage was pretty good, but there was a 

8 number given in the report, I can't remember 

9 what the exact value of it was, but it was 

10 actually fairly high, though there were 

11 samplers that lost power. For the most part, 

12 sampling was conducted during the fire. 

13 MR. EVASKOVICH: I think -- I'm 

14 not sure. I know the EPA and the state were 

15 also sampling as well as LANL, but there was 

16 some question as far as crossover of the data 

17 because I think they were looking for 

18 different things.

19 I think that was also in the fire 

20 report as well, the Risk Assessment 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

315 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 Corporation report that I referred to, and I 

2 think there were some questions as far as 

3 dosing because of the conflicts between the 

4 data sets, and that was raised in that Risk 

5 Assessment Corporation report.

6 So yes, you have data, but I think 

7 it's a question of usability and quality of 

8 the data.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I 

10 think we hit on the main question of does it -

11 - and you know either representative or 

12 overestimating of the workers' exposure. I 

13 think we are not so honed in on 

14 representative, as long as it's, you know, can 

15 be demonstrated that it's an overestimate to 

16 use the approach you are describing. So all 

17 right, let's hit I think the last one, number 

18 8, was a Work Group issue, and I am going to 

19 do what we have often done which is to put it 

20 down as remains a Work Group issue because I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

316 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 didn't think about it and I am not sure if my 

2 colleagues in the Work Group -- I mean this is 

3 the question of did something -- Nevada Test 

4 Site, right, so we certainly should look at 

5 that and reflect on consistency of our 

6 determinations, but I haven't --

7 MEMBER BEACH: Well do we need more 

8 details on what's similar or not similar? It's 

9 a pretty broad --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that was 

11 pretty broad --

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I think, 

13 trying to remember back, the notion with 

14 exotics was these were, I guess --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Campaign16 driven.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: -- campaign18 based, they weren't, you know, lengthy 

19 operations, and the approach to the testing at 

20 NTS, which is I guess analogous essentially at 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

317 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 least, you know, set periods of time when you 

2 actually ran the test you know, but that was 

3 episodic as well, so whether or not -- and I 

4 am not -- I am not fully familiar with NTS --

5 DR. NETON: NTS is based on much 

6 more than just the --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Campaign.

8 DR. NETON: -- campaign-based 

9 nature, I mean there was a very large gap in 

10 our knowledge of how they ran their rad 

11 protection program, and we searched high and 

12 low and couldn't find a good document that 

13 sort of led us to how they determined who was 

14 going to be monitored and such, or as I think 

15 we talked about this morning, there's pages 

16 and pages of health physics procedures 

17 available, with RWP systems in place, and the 

18 whole nine yards, that I think give us, at 

19 least me, a fairly good comfort level that 

20 something was in place to make those 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

318 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 decisions. I'm not prejudging here, I'm just 

2 saying, that is a difference that I see 

3 between NTS --

4 MR. EVASKOVICH: Well, if I can 

5 comment, I think one of the issues I tried to 

6 make was the size of the data sets and if you 

7 look at the in vivo data sets for LANL, you 

8 have a large amount for plutonium and uranium 

9 and americium but not for the exotics, and 

10 that was one of the points I think was in that 

11 report that came out in November of '09, was 

12 the size of the data sets available for NTS, 

13 and I think that was my concern when I raised 

14 that question, was you know, how small is too 

15 small or how much is enough in order to 

16 actually do a dose reconstruction.

17 DR. NETON: Well, there's a reason 

18 they are called exotics. I mean, they are 

19 infrequently used radionuclides, so you would 

20 expect the data set to be much smaller. The 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

319 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 question is the data set large enough to be 

2 representative of what --

3 MR. EVASKOVICH: And that's the 

4 point that I was trying to make, the issue 

5 that I was trying to incorporate as far as --

6 because looking at the data sets for the in 

7 vivo that were included the last time, you see 

8 a lot of zeroes and ones and twos and 10s and 

9 20s, and I am like, is that representative 

10 enough in order to do a dose reconstruction?

11 DR. MACIEVIC: The one thing we 

12 should look at is that because a data set has 

13 a lot of low numbers with zeroes and all that, 

14 a zero, 10, 20 doesn't imply the site has 

15 missed everything and everything is wrong.

16 I mean you may actually have 

17 zeroes, 10s, and 20s and that 50, 100 and 

18 1,000 millirem is the freak number --

19 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

20 DR. MACIEVIC: Well number of 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

320 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 samples, too, but I think as well as we tend 

2 to look at these data sets and say oh look, 

3 there's a lot of zeroes, that means there's 

4 something wrong, whereas --

5 MR. EVASKOVICH: No, that's not --

6 I am saying is it representative? That's my 

7 question. Can you take that number, say you 

8 have got a data set of 10 for germanium, cam 

9 you take that 10 samples and apply it to 

10 workers in order to reconstruct dose of those 

11 who were potentially exposed. That's my 

12 question.

13 DR. MACIEVIC: Depends on whether 

14 what you are applying it to is a particular 

15 task. If you got 10 readings of a task that 

16 lasted over a short period of time that didn't 

17 continue, you can say yes.

18 But if you are taking that 10 

19 samples and applying it to five years worth of 

20 effort, then yes, I would say that's --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

321 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MR. EVASKOVICH: Well, that's the 

2 point I am trying to make is because that 

3 covers '76 to 2005. And I think maybe if you 

4 are going to reconstruct dose and just say 

5 yes, this is adequate, at least include an 

6 explanation of why you think it is adequate.

7 And all it comes back to like, 

8 what I have said in the past, is explanations, 

9 I think, PR, you know, public relations, and I 

10 think that's part of the issue is, you know, 

11 the understanding of the public concerning how 

12 the program works and you guys have made an 

13 effort with the workshops and the Board 

14 meetings help. But just explain to people how 

15 things work and I think that's part of the 

16 difficulties that we face as the claimants and 

17 petitioners is understanding process.

18 So, you know, I am saying if it's 

19 not there, you know, add the Class, if it is 

20 there then explain how it works if you can. I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

322 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 mean I understand the difficulties there too, 

2 so that people understand it.

3 DR. MACIEVIC: Well, but since we 

4 are on this type of thing, as far as if I have 

5 100 activities that I can explain and I can't 

6 explain one, does that mean it's an SEC?

7 I mean, you know, how far do we 

8 dig into the -- do we have to have a handle on 

9 every activity that ever went on at a site and 

10 cannot do it? I mean, that I think is --

11 MR. EVASKOVICH: I understand 

12 that. I concede that point.

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: This is 

14 Kathy DeMers, since we are on the topic of 

15 NTS, a clarifying question. If you have a LANL 

16 worker who was involved in testing beyond '75 

17 and meets the 250 day criteria, they were at 

18 the test site right next to the REECO workers, 

19 working on various tasks, how do you treat 

20 that individual with respect to the NTS SEC?
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

323 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. NETON: Did you say the REECO 

2 worker?

3 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: No, no, an 

4 individual from LANL that's sent up to the 

5 test site and is working side by side with a 

6 REECO person --

7 DR. NETON: Oh, REECO.

8 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: -- who 

9 falls under an SEC at Nevada. How do you treat 

10 the LANL worker who meets the 250 day 

11 requirement, say they visited 250 days at NTS?

12 DR. NETON: It would seem if he 

13 was exposed at the NTS site, he would be 

14 covered under NTS SEC. It's work at that site. 

15 It's not where you worked. I guess I would 

16 have to think about it, but my gut reaction is 

17 it would be covered, but I -- maybe there's a 

18 --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sort of --

20 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well that's 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

324 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 what I have been wondering because you have 

2 these weapons laboratories, and they send 

3 people to NTS, and they are right next to the 

4 REECO people. Are they covered under the NTS 

5 SEC petition?

6 DR. NETON: Well, this exposure 

7 has to be covered somewhere, and it wouldn't 

8 be covered at NTS because he didn't incur the

9 -- your exposure has to be where you incurred 

10 it. 

11 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well, he 

12 received the exposure at NTS.

13 DR. NETON: Right, so I would 

14 think that it would be covered exposure at 

15 NTS. Essentially he was working at the Nevada 

16 Test Site even though his employer was --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But he would 

18 have to meet the 250 day, right?

19 DR. NETON: Yes, they have to meet 

20 the --
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

325 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Yes. Well 

2 this is a question that I have had because you 

3 have Livermore people, you have LANL people, 

4 you have Sandia people, and I would like to 

5 get a clarification on this.

6 DR. NETON: We could do that for 

7 you.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sometimes that 

9 might be the 250 day issue, too.

10 MR. KATZ: Don't you have 

11 experience with this with dose 

12 reconstructions? Are you reconstructing doses 

13 at other sites for an individual while they 

14 are employed as a lab employee?

15 DR. NETON: I'm pretty sure that 

16 the exposure that you receive at the site, as 

17 a visitor at that site, is covered at site, 

18 not at your home base employer.

19 MR. KATZ: Right, well then that's 

20 the answer then.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

326 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 DR. NETON: I think that answers 

2 it, but sometimes I say things and go back and 

3 check if there's some quirk that I'm missing.

4 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Well can 

5 you confirm your answer?

6 DR. NETON: Yes, I can definitely 

7 do that.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We can do this 

9 off line.

10 MR. FITZGERALD: It seems like 

11 what would confuse it is if your monitoring 

12 was done back at your home site and you are 

13 listed as a LANL employee. I don't know how 

14 that would --

15 DR. NETON: Well, but I would 

16 think that you would have a badge at the test 

17 site.

18 MR. FITZGERALD: You would have 

19 the external badge, but I am wondering where 

20 your bioassays would go. You know, maybe it 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

327 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 doesn't matter if you are there 250 days --

2 DR. NETON: You are in, yes.

3 MR. FITZGERALD: -- you are in, 

4 but if you are an employee of the lab, you 

5 know, I could see whether that could be --

6 that could screw you up a little bit if it 

7 came in --

8 DR. NETON: I hear you, Kathy. 

9 I'm pretty sure the answer's right, but I will 

10 verify that and make sure --

11 MR. STEWART: Let me chime in just 

12 a little bit. If I am a Los Alamos worker who 

13 works at NTS, I get dose records back from 

14 both sites. 

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

16 MR. STEWART: And if I had a 

17 bioassay sample and for some reason that's not 

18 very typical, because they didn't do a lot of 

19 bioassays at NTS, I will use the NTS 

20 assumptions to figure the dose from that 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

328 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 bioassay, not the Los Alamos one.

2 DR. NETON: You would give him the 

3 dose at NTS, though, right?

4 MR. STEWART: Yes, it would be 

5 based on NTS's external dose.

6 DR. NETON: There's no way you 

7 could assign NTS dose to exposure at Los 

8 Alamos. It just doesn't work that way.

9 MR. STEWART: Yes, I mean, and I 

10 have done that before, I have made that 

11 mistake. A peer reviewer has commented, he 

12 said okay well you assigned 12 zeroes, but 

13 four of them were zeroes from NTS and there 

14 was a different LOD at NTS and so you have to 

15 put the right level of detection to use the 

16 right level of detection to determine the 

17 missed dose, oh, I missed that one.

18 So yes, the dose parameters 

19 specific to the site are applied to the doses 

20 from that site.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

329 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: I 

2 understand that, but my concern is if the LANL 

3 worker meets the 250 day rule, he is exposed 

4 to the same source term as the REECO person 

5 who worked at NTS. Is he not eligible for the 

6 Nevada Test Site --

7 MR. STEWART: If he was at NTS for 

8 250 days he is eligible under the NTS SEC.

9 DR. NETON: If you look at the 

10 definition, the Class definition, Kathy, I 

11 think it says all DOE workers, contractors, 

12 subcontractors, whatever, who worked at the 

13 Nevada Test Site for 250 days. If you meet 

14 that definition you are in, no matter who your 

15 employer was, if you were working there.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, well, we 

17 will follow up on this and they will get back 

18 to you, Kathy, I'm sure.

19 DR. NETON: I'll verify that, but 

20 I think that's the answer.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

330 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right.

2 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: And the 

3 other question is I hear what you are saying, 

4 but is it being applied?

5 MR. KATZ: Well you know this, I 

6 mean, first of all this is a DOL process if 

7 they are in the SEC or not, but we will get an 

8 answer as to what is supposed to be done and 

9 if you want to follow up on a particular 

10 individual with DOL, if DOL did it, they 

11 wouldn't even come to us. They would be put in 

12 the SEC; we wouldn't see their case. 

13 MS. ROBERTSON-DEMERS: Okay.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right, is 

15 there anything else for today?

16 I think we got it -- did you have 

17 anything else, Andrew, to add? You got your 

18 comments in at the end there.

19 MR. EVASKOVICH: No, I --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: All right I 
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

331 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 think if there is nothing else that should do 

2 it for the Work Group. Wanda?

3 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We didn't 

5 assign anything to Procedures. You need 

6 something to do to keep you busy?

7 MEMBER MUNN: Well, if there's 

8 something that comes to mind after you are all 

9 done and finished, do let me know, I always 

10 have space for you guys on Procedures, you 

11 bet.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Just one 

13 question. What time is dinner, and what are 

14 you serving?

15 MEMBER MUNN: Well, dinner is 

16 going to be late for you, very, very late. So 

17 you will just have time to get here, and it 

18 will probably be leftover Easter ham.

19 MEMBER PRESLEY: Wanda. 

20 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.
This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. § 

552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy at 

this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is subject 

to change. 

332 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Meeting 

2 adjourned.

3 (Whereupon the above-entitled 

4 matter went off the record at 3:23 p.m.)