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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES 

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL 

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL 

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND 

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + + 

WORK GROUP ON LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY 

+ + + + + 

TUESDAY 

SEPTEMBER 11, 2012 

+ + + + + 

The Work Group convened via 

teleconference at 2:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Mark

Griffon, Chairman, presiding. 

PRESENT: 

MARK GRIFFON, Chairman

JOSIE BEACH, Member

JAMES E. LOCKEY, Member

WANDA I. MUNN, Member 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

ALSO PRESENT: 

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

JENNIFER CATECHIS, Congressman Ben Ray Lujan's

Office 

ANDREW EVASKOVICH 

JOE FITZGERALD, SC&A

MICHELLE JACQUEZ-ORTIZ, Senator Tom Udall's

Office 

JENNY LIN, HHS

GREG MACIEVIC, ORAU Team

MAUREEN MERRITT 

CHRISTOPHER MILES, ORAU Team

JIM NETON, DCAS

DAN STEMPFLEY, ORAU Team

JOHN STIVER, SC&A 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2:01 p.m. 

MR. KATZ: We'll get started with 

roll call in a second. Let me just say I want 

to apologize for all of you others and the 

public in particular on the line who were on 

the line at 1 o'clock, didn't have notice that 

the meeting time had changed. 

We tried to get out a notice, but 

it didn't get to everyone, and it didn't get 

posted in time. I apologize for that. I did 

get on the phone at 1 to tell people waiting 

on the line that we were moved to 2 p.m. but I 

called in again 15 minutes later and there 

were a few people on the line who just hung up 

as I called in, so I know I didn't get to 

everybody. 

So, again, I just want to 

apologize. It was a late, last minute change 

but we really didn't have an alternative and 

thank you for bearing with us. Let's get 

going with roll call. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

 (Roll call.) 

MR. KATZ: The agenda for this 

meeting is -- should be now posted on the 

NIOSH website -- I haven't rechecked it -- as 

well as the NIOSH Evaluation Report that's 

being discussed at this meeting, and I would 

just ask everyone except when you are 

addressing the group please mute your phone. 

If you don't have a mute button on 

your phone press *6 to mute your phone and 

then if you need to come off of mute press *6 

again. 

And, please, nobody put this call 

on hold at any point. Hang up and dial back 

in if you need to leave for a period. But 

thanks, and Mark, it's your agenda. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Thanks, 

Ted. This is Mark Griffon, the chair, and I'd 

just ask that on this type of phone call if we 

all try to say our names before we talk it 

might make it easier for the transcript. 

Ted's right. The -- we have a 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

pretty straightforward agenda and hopefully a 

fairly short meeting here. 

I think the main item, the first 

item and the main item, is to discuss the 

NIOSH SEC petition Evaluation Report, I guess 

dated August 15th. 

So I think I'll just turn it over 

to whoever's going to maybe give us an 

overview of that from NIOSH and we'll start 

there if that's okay. 

DR. NETON: Yes, Mark. This is Jim 

Neton. I'll take on that task. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Go ahead. 

DR. NETON: Okay. We revised, as 

everyone knows by now, our Evaluation Report 

to the LANL Petition SEC-00109. 

So we rethought through our logic 

in certain key areas and decided to reissue 

the Evaluation Report, Revision One, which is 

marked -- that was issued -- I believe the 

issue date on the report is August 13th. 

It might have been posted on the 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

website on the 15th. But at any rate, it's 

out there available for people and I hope 

people on the call have had a chance to look 

at it. 

I'll just sort of give a thumbnail 

sketch of our thought process behind our 

change of position and then I guess we can 

entertain any questions after that. 

If you all recall, there were 

previous NIOSH evaluations for various SEC 

petitions starting with SEC 51, 61 and SEC 170 

that established various Classes of SECs or 

SEC -- yes, SECs at LANL. They currently 

extend from March 15th, 1943, through December 

31st of '75. 

The basis for that Class was the 

infeasibility of internal dose reconstructions 

for a number of radionuclides including what 

we have commonly been calling at a lot of 

these sites the exotic radionuclides and 

particularly your alpha emitters that are not 

routinely monitored nor are workers fairly 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

routinely exposed. 

That -- you know, normally a 

facility would monitor for a nuclide such as 

plutonium and uranium, which were pretty 

prevalent throughout the complex. 

But these so-called exotics 

included nuclides such as curium, neptunium, 

strontium and thorium, to some degree. 

And in addition, the Class at LANL 

was also added because of these mixed fission 

and activation products that just weren't 

monitored for and we had no sense that we 

could reconstruct internal exposures for those 

nuclides even though it did appear in many 

instances the exposures were not that great. 

But they couldn't be reconstructed with 

sufficient accuracy. 

And part of the evaluation -- in 

the Evaluation Report for SEC 51 it was 

recognized that dose reconstruction still 

might exist for the post-'75 period. 

In particular, you know, we reserve 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

the right to go back and look at the treatment 

of those exotics and mixed fission activation 

products further. 

When SEC -- when the current SEC 

Petition 109 was issued, it qualified 

principally based on that fact that or one of 

the facts was that mixed fission and 

activation product exotics weren't monitored. 

We've gone back and looked in more 

detail at the -- our ability to reconstruct 

these internal exposures to exotics and mixed 

fission activation products and we've come to 

the conclusion, if you've read the report, 

that we can't do it with sufficient accuracy. 

It was a novel approach to try or 

put forth for the reconstruction of these 

nuclides at Los Alamos and that had to do with 

the fact that given the level of monitoring 

that was performed with plutonium and uranium, 

and they seemed to have been monitored pretty 

well, that the feeling was well, why would 

these other nuclides have been handled any 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

differently. 

So in other words, the exposures 

were more likely controlled in the same manner 

and to the same levels. 

And in fact, a lot of discussion 

went on in the Working Groups and NIOSH did 

produce a lot of documentation supporting the 

fact that the health physics program did seem 

to be there, but nonetheless the level of 

monitoring for these exotics and mixed fission 

activation products was pretty sparse --

almost nonexistent for some exposure modes. 

So the idea was that we had 

proposed, if you recall in the Evaluation 

Report, that we would take the coworker data 

that you could establish for plutonium, 

uranium, and cesium and tritium, to some 

extent, and use those coworker models and 

assign doses for all these other radionuclides 

based on the exposures that were experienced 

to the plutoniums and the uraniums. 

And after really looking at this in 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

some detail, essentially that's sort of a 

surrogate data approach, if you want to think 

of it that way -- after looking at it in some 

detail it really didn't appear to us to hold 

water. 

But one of the main reasons we 

think is that the exposure to these exotics we 

could not demonstrate with any degree of 

confidence that the exposures were controlled 

and handled in a similar manner. 

Even though the health physics 

program seemed to be in place, it seems that 

these exotics which were not used on a routine 

basis would have been -- could have had 

different types of exposure conditions present 

than what you would experience with the things 

like plutonium and uranium. 

So in other words, the exposure to 

the exotics, you know, might -- were on a much 

more intermittent experimental basis or very 

much episodic in nature that would preclude 

the use of this chronic exposure model that 

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Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

was developed for things like plutonium and 

uranium. 

And in addition, the short duration 

exposures that were established for these 

small experiments might not have had similar 

engineering controls. We just couldn't 

determine that to any degree of -- with any 

degree of confidence. 

So after reviewing all of that 

information we agree or we decided that we 

would -- Class should be added based on our 

inability to reconstruct doses for these 

exotics and mixed fission activation products 

from January 1st, '76, all the way through the 

end of December, '95. 

We reserve judgment to continue to 

review data after '95. We're not saying at 

this point that we've made a determination, 

but it appears to us that '95 is a -- is a 

good cut point based on the existence of 10 

CFR Part 835, the establishment of a technical 

basis document for internal dosimetry and 

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Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

preparation of resolutions and responses to 

some Tiger Team concerns that were raised. 

So we're going to continue to look 

at that and make a final determination at a 

later date. But we did want to put this Class 

forward once we made our decision for workers 

up through '95. 

We do believe that we can do 

external dose reconstruction as we had 

proposed in the previous Evaluation Report. 

We have a large number of external monitoring 

results. Virtually all workers were monitored 

after '75 or the majority of all workers were 

monitored. 

We have good beta measurements in 

the field and we believe that we can 

reconstruct neutrons using either 

neutron/photon ratios or the albedo dosimeters 

that were in place after 1980. 

So that summarizes our position in 

a nutshell. I'll be happy to answer any 

questions. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Jim, this is 

Mark. One thing -- you may have said this but 

is this for all workers or could you -

DR. NETON: Yes, I'm sorry. It's 

for all workers and it's very much based on 

the same reason that SEC 170, the 83.14 was 

added, is that it's just not possible to 

determine who entered which areas. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

DR. NETON: It will be for all 

workers on site. 

MEMBER LOCKEY: Jim Lockey. That 

includes the firefighters, right? 

DR. NETON: Yes. And the normal --

the normal caveats do appl that it's 250 days 

of exposure, you know, in the Class. Yes, it 

would include firefighters. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. And then 

-- and I -- I mean, I don't think we have to -

- the only question I have, I mean, this has 

obviously been the source of several SC&A 

findings that we've been discussing on the 

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Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

Work Group over the course of the last year. 

So, I mean, the exotics and the 

mixed fission products, mixed activation 

products I don't know that the -- I mean, I 

think that's one thing. 

I think the decision that you made 

on the cut point at least for now is logical 

to me as well that, you know, because there 

was a much more robust program across the 

complex as of '95. So I think that makes a 

lot of sense. 

I don't know if other Members of 

the Board have any questions. 

MEMBER BEACH: Yes, Mark. This is 

Josie. That was my big question was the cut 

point, and it's clear now that we'll go to '95 

and then you'll still look at that time --

that time period. 

And I'm assuming the Work Group 

will come back and discuss the '95 to 2005 

time frame at some point. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I would 

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Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

assume that but, you know, it's definitely 

still on the table and there are several 

questions that I think the petitioner had that 

happened post-'95 that we'll still have to 

address. But at least let's get a big chunk 

of, you know, of folks -

DR. NETON: I would like to point 

out one error that exists in the -- or one 

clarification for the Evaluation Report. The 

table in the back, I believe, says that we 

cannot reconstruct tritium exposures and we do 

have a coworker model for tritium so that's 

not technically accurate. 

What it -- what it should have said 

was exposures to certain stable metal tritides 

because we do have coworker models for tritium 

but there are some tritides, metallicallybound tritium exposures, that we believe that 

we can't reconstruct. So just wanted to point 

that out. 

It's inconsistent. If you read it, 

it says we can do tritium and then it says in 

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Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

the back you can't, and that really should say 

tritides. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So the 

primary basis, Jim, is the exotics, and I 

think we should be careful in the way we 

characterize this, especially if we want to 

bring a motion back to the full Board, and 

then mixed activation and mixed fission 

products -

DR. NETON: Right. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- and metal --

and some metal tritides or something like that 

we could --

DR. NETON: That's right. Yes. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And can 

you just for the record, again, can you tell 

us -- I know we've discussed many exotics. 

Did you have primary ones that -- you know, 

you said neptunium -

DR. NETON: Yes. They're the ones 

-- yes, neptunium-237, actinium-227, 

protactinium-231, curium-244. 

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§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. 

DR. NETON: There's a -- there's a 

number of them. I mean, it's sort of --

 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

DR. NETON: -- happened in other 

national laboratories if you think about it. 

We have Brookhaven and Lawrence 

Livermore and now Los Alamos and there's just 

these sort of little campaigns of other 

experiments going on that are just -- don't 

lend themselves to reconstruction based on any 

type of coworker models that we can establish. 

You know, the thought process -

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

DR. NETON: -- was pretty sound in 

the beginning when we had all this plutonium 

and uranium data. But, really, after going 

through it and fine tuning it, it just didn't 

seem to hold water to us. Anyway, that's 

where we're at. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But --

MEMBER BEACH: So just to be clear, 

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however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

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subject to change. 

Mark -- this is Josie again. I have a 

question. On the H3, are you going to update 

the chart? 

DR. NETON: No, I'm going to -- I'm 

going to make sure I point this out on my 

presentation. But I didn't feel -- since it 

is tritium. It's just tritides, not tritium 

itself. 

Tritium -- tritide is a form of 

tritium, I suppose. I mean, it didn't seem, 

in my opinion, worth revising the entire 

report to put a footnote in it. 

MEMBER BEACH: Okay. I just wanted 

to be clear. 

DR. NETON: As long as I think we 

get the definition set straight at the 

Advisory Board meeting and the letter to the 

Secretary states it properly I think we're 

okay. 

MEMBER BEACH: Okay. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that was my 

focus was maybe in the motion that there were, 

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assuming me make a motion here, I would --

that we say exotic radionuclides including 

protactinium, curium, neptunium -

DR. NETON: Right. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- and metal 

tritides as well as mixed activation and mixed 

fission products, something to that effect. 

DR. NETON: Right. That was -- I 

think. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. Any 

other questions from the Board? I don't know 

if we -- I think we can give ourselves -- I 

don't know who has to make an official motion 

but the idea I had was that if we have 

agreement with our Work Group it would be nice 

to go to the meeting next week with a motion 

from the Work Group saying that, you know, 

through all our Work Group discussions on 

these items and given NIOSH's current position 

we'd make a motion to include the Class as 

defined by NIOSH in this report. I don't know 

if that -- if that's agreeable to folks or -

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MEMBER BEACH: This is Josie. 

20
 

Mark, that's agreeable to me. 

MEMBER LOCKEY: Jim -- this is Jim 

Lockey. It's agreeable to me. 

MEMBER MUNN: And this is Wanda. I 

oppose the concept. I don't know that we had 

any option. 

It is obviously an erroneous thing 

to make the assumption that every person who 

submits a claim was a potential employee who 

had been exposed to exotics. 

We all know that that was not true 

and for us to affirm an SEC indicating that 

that was a potential is almost insulting to 

the men and women who have operated an 

excellent program at Los Alamos and kept 

reasonable records, if not records that meet 

the Definition that we've set for a very high 

bar. 

I don't know that there's an option 

other than the one to recommend that we accept 

NIOSH's position. I don't know how we could 

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do anything but. 

So, yes, I see no alternative to 

recommending that the NIOSH position be 

accepted. I personally do not accept it, and 

I don't believe most people who work in this 

field can accept it. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I appreciate 

your comments, Wanda. I think NIOSH staff 

certainly has struggled with this for, you 

know, quite a while and, you know, but I think 

it's one of those situations where, as Jim 

described it, just couldn't come up with a way 

to be able to reconstruct. 

So I know you're saying it would --

we're possibly adding a lot more people in the 

Class that -- than were likely to really have 

been exposed to these materials. But -

MEMBER MUNN: In 99 --

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- I don't know 

we have the records to identify - yes. 

MEMBER LOCKEY: Wanda, hi. Jim 

Lockey. I mean, I would agree with you, but 

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we've run across the same issue, for instance, 

like General Electric here in Cincinnati. 

I mean, it really more applies to 

how the legislation is written rather than the 

facts on the ground. But if you can't 

identify the potential people who had the 

potential exposure then our hands are tied, I 

think. 

MEMBER MUNN: Well, the fact that 

the people are for the most part no longer 

living who were involved in those experiments 

makes it difficult to do. 

But there is no question that 

people who were not anywhere near -- for 

example, we've spent a great deal of time 

talking about the accelerators and the nonreactor activities that took place on the 

site, and we know very well very few people 

were involved in those programs -- very few. 

And for us to therefore say anyone 

who happened to be on site for 250 days 

qualifies for this is -- if this was the 

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intent of the legislation then it was clearly 

flawed at the outset, and multiple wrongs do 

not make a right. 

However, as I said at the outset, I 

see if NIOSH takes the position that they 

cannot do this with "sufficient accuracy" --

heaven knows what sufficient accuracy is when 

they're talking about relatively small 

exposures to a very, very small number of 

people. 

Nevertheless, I see no option other 

than to agree that we will recommend a Special 

Cohort. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I mean, 

I'm prepared to, you know, summarize a motion, 

and I will indicate, you know, that we have a 

three-to-one opinion and, you know, then the 

Board will take it up anyway. 

So it will be a full Board action. 

But I'll be prepared to present a motion from 

the Work Group and summarize some of the 

activities we've gone through in the last 

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couple Work Group meetings to, you know, 

indicate the -- these particular issues over 

reconstructing for exotics for mixed fission 

and activation products. 

And I'm not sure how much we 

touched on tritides, but we at least had 

lengthy discussions on the other two areas. 

So I'll do a brief presentation on that as 

well as a motion. 

SC&A, did you have anything to add, 

Joe, on this discussion? 

MR. FITZGERALD: No. I think 

certainly over the last couple of Work Group 

meetings there was clear convergence on some 

of these very questions. 

I think this revision is an 

acknowledgment that we're pretty much getting 

on the same page as far as those issues and 

as, I think, Josie was indicating there will 

be some scrutiny around '95 to see when things 

were resolved in terms of the dosimetry 

program. 

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I think term 835 was 

regulatory driver in that time frame. 

25 

a key 

So was 

the DOELAP accreditation program for internal, 

and as I recall I think for Los Alamos that 

accreditation occurred in 1999 or 2000. 

So there's a period of time in the 

mid to late `90s when the bioassay program was 

being upgraded and being reviewed for 

accreditation. 

So I think that's going to be a 

good time period to examine exactly what 

happened on the ground and to what extent the 

issues we've identified have been resolved in 

that -- in that review. 

So I think, certainly, we're in 

good shape. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you, Joe. 

And then I think is there anything more to 

discuss on the report itself or this proposed 

motion? The other part of this short agenda 

and maybe -- Ted, maybe you can help me with 

this. 

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It is public comments from the June 

Board meeting. Did we want to go over those 

or what's the -

MR. KATZ: So this is Ted. Yes, I 

mean, that's -- well, that's the question to 

you. 

I put it on the agenda because are 

we going to have any discussion of this in 

planning for the meeting, but I did circulate 

more than a month ago, I think, when NIOSH 

DCAS did their usual job of pulling together 

all the public comments from the previous 

Board meeting and sort of distributing them to 

the parties that are responsible. 

You know, part of that element 

NIOSH takes care of where they take care of 

comments that are sort of within their domain. 

But comments that are made that are judged to 

be in part or entirely sort of in the domain 

of the Board are sent to the responsible Work 

Groups. So that's what I sent you. 

I sent you from the June Board 

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meeting comments -- I think five comments all 

related. 

You know, it's a matter mostly, I 

think, that we're talking about here because 

they're all matters related to this petition 

that are -- it's the Work Group's prerogative 

to address those comments, just as DCAS 

addresses them when they're within their 

domain. 

So you all have these I think, and 

the question is whether there are any of these 

comments that it makes sense to discuss. If 

you don't have them in front of you I can just 

run through the shorthand on each one or you 

can make a judgment about that. 

MEMBER MUNN: Well, this is Wanda. 

The purpose of public comment almost always, 

not every single time but rarely is it geared 

toward anything other than approval of the 

SEC. 

Perhaps it would behoove us to hear 

from one or more of the petitioners whether 

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they feel public comment should be addressed 

here further or whether they are content with 

the extent of the discussion that's been made 

to this point. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. The other 

thing I was going to say, Wanda, is maybe we 

could consider this -- these comments in the 

next meeting of the Work Group, you know, to 

the extent that they are still relevant if --

assuming we approve the extension of this 

Class. 

Some of these may be comments 

related to, you know, the time period that 

will be covered and may be addressed by, you 

know, the addition of this Class up to '95. 

I see some, you know, that are 

talking about later, reports in 2005 and other 

things. So that may not be the case. But 

yes, I guess -- you know, I guess I can go 

either way here. 

Ted, if you can maybe summarize 

them briefly and then I'm not sure I'm 

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prepared right now to discuss them but -

MEMBER BEACH: Well, Mark, this is 

Josie. I kind of read through them, and like 

you said a lot of them have to do with the 

Tiger Team report, criticism with the approach 

and a lot of these may have already been taken 

care of with --

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

MEMBER BEACH: -- depending on how 

this -- the outcome of today's meeting and, of 

course, the full Board meeting. 

MR. KATZ: This is Ted. 

MEMBER BEACH: But I like your 

suggestion. 

MR. KATZ: Yes, the other -- I mean 

I agree. A number of these would be sort of 

caught under the umbrella of the action that 

NIOSH is proposing and in effect that -- you 

know, that response -- even though this was 

put to the Work Group. I can go either way. 

If you want me to summarize them, I 

mean, I can real briefly. If you want to just 

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move on and deal with these at the next Work 

Group meeting if there's any that are left on 

the table you can do that, too. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Why don't 

we move on and take them up at the next faceto-face Work Group meeting? I think it'd be 

easier to discuss them in that way. 

And then, you know, our next topic 

is in fact petitioner comments. So if there's 

some things that they feel, you know, that 

need to be brought up now let's certainly hear 

that. 

So, yes, let's move on, and we'll 

save the June comments for discussion next 

time we meet face to face, and the next topic 

is petitioner comments. Is there anyone -- I 

heard at least one person representing the 

petitioner. 

If you have any comments on --

mainly, I think we're focused on the NIOSH 

Evaluation Report. The proposal that NIOSH is 

making is to extend the Class to 1995. 

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So do you have any comments for 

today's meeting? You're certainly welcome 

also next week to make comments either in 

person or on the phone at our full Board 

meeting. 

MR. EVASKOVICH: Yes. This is 

Andrew Evaskovich. The -- going to 1995 I 

agree to that and, you know, NIOSH has said 

they're going to review the later dates based 

on the reports that I had submitted. 

So that's acceptable as well. So, 

you know, and I agree to the motion to be made 

to the full Board that this Class be added --

you know, all I can say is I'm very happy with 

this decision, and I'm very grateful for all 

the work that the Work Group has done, NIOSH 

and SC&A, and my final comment is thank you to 

you all. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, Andrew, I 

should say it's not decided yet but, you know, 

at least we're going to move forward with a 

Work Group recommendation and we'll take it up 

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next week for the full Board. So yes. 

32 

Then it will surely be on the 

agenda for the full Board meeting next week. 

Any other comments? 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: Mark, this is 

Michelle from Senator Udall's office. This is 

just a clarification. 

When this comes up at 1:00 o'clock 

-- it's like 1:30 to 3:00 -- and we understand 

that this is by no means a final decision, but 

could you just walk us through what that hour 

and a half is going to look like? 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: We know it's 

listed as a general agenda item, but our D.C. 

staff is plugged into this. I'm wondering, 

you know, to what extent I need to prepare 

folks. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I mean, I 

expect -- normally the way we run these things 

is the initial part will be a presentation 

from NIOSH. 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

I don't know, Jim Neton, if you'll 

be doing that or who will be doing that but --

DR. NETON: Yes, I'll be doing 

that, Mark. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. A 

presentation from NIOSH on this -- on the full 

Evaluation Report. That'll probably take the 

larger chunk of time. 

Usually we leave time for some 

questions from the Board to NIOSH on that 

Evaluation Report, and then I think I would 

take a much briefer period of time to present 

what the Work Group has discussed and this 

motion that the Work Group is making to the 

Board. 

And then we would have a chance --

once it's a motion from the Work Group it 

doesn't need a second because it's a Work 

Group recommendation, and then we'd have a 

full deliberation amongst the Board. 

Also, at some point there's a 

period when we have a chance for petitioner 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

comments. I guess that would come before the 

motion. I forget the order on that, Ted. 

But so it's the three things -- the 

NIOSH report, the Work Group report and a 

petitioner comment period followed by a vote. 

You know, since the Work Group's going to 

make a motion they would have Board action 

after that. 

MR. KATZ: This is Ted. Thanks, 

Mark. So let me just add to that because I 

heard from -- through the CDC Washington 

office that both Representative Lujan and 

Senator Udall both had statements. 

Senator Udall's would be through a 

staffer. But the request was for them to 

present at 1:30 so and that's fine. 

So they can -- because that's a 

time certain, which is kind of nice. I know 

time is precious, particularly for legislators 

who are going to be somewhere in person and so 

the Representative can plan to just present at 

the outset at 1:30 and know exactly when he's 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

on. 

35
 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: Okay. That's -

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay. I 

wasn't aware of that. Sorry, Ted. That's --

yes. Certainly -

MR. KATZ: That's fine. Everything 

you said still applies. The rest of the 

program would go, you know, as you described. 

If the representative wants to present at a 

different time at the end of the process 

that's okay too. 

It's just that that -- a block of 

time certain is kind of nice for a person 

who's on the go. So -

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: Yes. Thank 

you, Mark. Thank you, Ted. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Thanks, 

Ted, for clearing that too. So are there any 

other petitioner comments and-- go ahead. 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: Mark, this 

means that post-'95 is -- this is by no means 

a given because the Work Group's going to make 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

a recommendation. NIOSH will make a 

recommendation. 

36 

But the Advisory Board still has to 

vote, and if the vote goes the way that the 

petitioners hope that it goes this means that 

NIOSH will still consider '95 to 2005 and -

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: -- the Work 

Group is still going to work on '95 to 2005? 

 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's correct. 

Yes. 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: Okay. But 

you're just trying to -- this decision would 

carve out a group and that would allow those 

petitioners to, you know, to be able to apply 

without holding up the larger group. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's the idea, 

yes, and we've done this in several, you know, 

several sites around the country. 

Instead of waiting until we have 

answers for everything if we can carve out 

some, you know, that is helpful. So yes, 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

that's the idea. 

37
 

And then we'd reconvene the Work 

Group to meet on the post-'95 issue if the --

you know, assuming it's resolved at next 

week's meeting. 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: And so, Mark, 

how in those other cases -- I mean, how often 

is it that NIOSH will make a recommendation 

but the Advisory Board will not agree? I 

mean, will not -

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, I don't have 

the numbers on that but I mean, you know, this 

is going to come as a Work Group 

recommendation and, you know, we'll find out 

soon enough, I think. So but I think, you 

know, the fact -- I don't know. It's 

 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: Yes, it's --

I'm just -- I'm thinking out loud and I 

probably shouldn't. But it was just in light 

of Wanda's comments. So thank you for that. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

MEMBER MUNN: This is Wanda again. 

To my memory only one time has the Board 

failed to follow the recommendation of the 

Work Group. 

MS. JACQUEZ-ORTIZ: Okay. Thank 

you. 

MEMBER MUNN: So you can assume 

that will occur. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's 

probably true. Okay. So in the meantime --

you know, for next week I'm just going to 

prepare a -- you know, Jim will do the bulk of 

the presentation on the Evaluation Report for 

NIOSH, and I'll prepare a few slides for 

summarizing the Work Group's position. 

Ted, I couldn't get you slotted 

before. Obviously, I was waiting for today's 

meeting too so but I'll just have a few 

overheads to present the Work Group's 

position, and we'll certainly accommodate the 

Congress folks that want to speak on behalf, 

you know, the petitioner and the petitioner 

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Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

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subject to change. 

themselves -- give them an opportunity to 

speak. 

But I think that's where we stand. 

Is there anything else for today's meeting? 

MR. KATZ: No. But, Mark, all I 

would just say about -- I mean, I'm not even 

sure you need slides. You have relatively 

little to say, but if you want a slide on, for 

example, your motion, that might be handy. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That's the 

one thing I was thinking of. 

MR. KATZ: Right. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Is that 

it then? Does anyone else have any --

MR. KATZ: No, I -- the only thing 

else on the agenda that I didn't know whether 

you needed to discuss the status of current 

LANL follow-up activities at all. If you're 

not ready to do that then you can adjourn. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I don't 

know if -- I guess I'm wondering if, you know, 

really are we talking post-'95 or we don't 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

know yet, right? So -

DR. MACIEVIC: Well, this is Greg 

Macievic. I can give you -

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Greg, 

maybe you can give us an update, yes. 

DR. MACIEVIC: A little quick 

explanation what we're going to be doing post-

'95 and there's basically two things. 

One is to take all those action 

items and review them for how -- the 

applicability of post-'95 to see if any of 

these issues drop out or not. That's the 

first thing. 

And then the second thing is we're 

going to do an approach where since this is 

relatively recent in time -- we're talking, 

what, 17 years -- yes, 17, 16 years -- there 

should still be workers there and also people 

in charge who have been around back to that 

period. 

So what we're going to do is go to 

the LANL site with these action items and set 

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§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

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subject to change. 

up a large questionnaire type thing and talk 

to the people like the RadCon manager, health 

physicists and that and see how they actually 

conform to the action items currently right 

now. 

Then see how they -- how they work 

and how they do apply and then work backwards 

to -- back to 19 -- through 1996 and see if 

they -- the same kind of application all the 

way back or where does it fall apart and look 

at it from that perspective so that we can get 

a view. 

Instead of just going on a data 

capture and pulling in a whole bunch more 

documents and searching, we're going to try to 

see the point at which LANL can or can't 

answer the questions on these action items. 

So that's really going to be our approach. 

So it's going to take a little time 

because of the fact that we're going to have 

to do a lot of arranging and setting up 

questionnaires for the LANL staff. 

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Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

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at this time. The reader should be cautioned that this transcript is for information only and is 

subject to change. 

But that is the approach we're 

going to take and start that out in the near 

future. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Thank 

you, Greg. And maybe I would ask Joe to, for 

SC&A, to do the same thing, maybe to look over 

the last version of our matrix and action 

items and, you know, from your perspective. 

Just have a sense or go through and 

look at what might fall out. Same kind of 

idea. 

DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, I think that -

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Not to set up 

interviews but to look at -

DR. MACIEVIC: Right. I think it's 

going to be source term related and probably 

deal with time frames for certain operations 

and there may very well be some operations 

that'll fall out. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I think it 

would be also useful if -- Joe, if you can 

coordinate with Greg on that just to see if --

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

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subject to change. 

I don't think we have to -- if you guys can 

come to agreement on certain things falling 

out I think that's easy. You know, you can 

just come to the Work Group meeting and report 

that. So yes. 

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I think the 

 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

MR. FITZGERALD: -- thing will be 

the last matrix and just more or less updated 

with the '95 assuming the '95 is approved by 

the full Board, using that cutoff as the basis 

for a revised matrix. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. That will 

be helpful. And then I'll stay in touch with 

both of you and when it makes sense we can 

plan for another Work Group meeting, yes. 

But it seems like, you know, there 

will be some time lag here because some work 

has to be done, obviously. Okay. Anything 

else, Ted, Joe, or Greg on that? 

MR. FITZGERALD: No, that's fine. 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

Laboratory (LANL) Work Group, has been reviewed for concerns under the Privacy Act (5 U.S.C. 

§ 552a) and personally identifiable information has been redacted as necessary. The transcript, 

however, has not been reviewed and certified by the Chair of the LANL Work Group for accuracy 

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subject to change. 

That'll be -- that'll be straightforward. 

DR. MACIEVIC: Yes, that's fine 

with me. And also when we set up these 

questionnaires I'd like to get also Joey's 

input on the questionnaires that we're going 

to use to send out for these different staff 

members when we're getting this arranged. 

MR. FITZGERALD: That'll work. 

DR. MACIEVIC: That's it for me. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Very 

good. So yes, I think at this point then, you 

know, we're -- I think we can wrap it up. The 

main focus was the Evaluation Report. I think 

we've covered that, and anything else, Ted, 

before we adjourn? 

Okay. Well, thank you all for my 

most efficient meeting ever on the Board and a 

special thanks since I'm doing it from an 

airport. 

MEMBER BEACH: Perfect. Thanks. 

CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. And I 

also apologize, as Ted did, for this delay. 

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This transcript of the Advisory Board on Radiation and Worker Health, Los Alamos National 

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subject to change. 

1 
 It's due to me. My flights were changed 

45
 

2 
 around, and I was in air -- in the air at 1:00 

3 
 o'clock. 

4 
 All right. But thank you all and 

5 
 we'll see you or talk to you next week. 

6 
 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

7 
 meeting concluded at 2:47 p.m.) 

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