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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

URANIUM REFINING 

AWEs WORK GROUP

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

AUGUST 16, 2011

+ + + + +

 The Work Group convened 

telephonically at 9:00 a.m., Henry Anderson, 

Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

HENRY ANDERSON, Chairman

R. WILLIAM FIELD, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

DAVE ALLEN, DCAS

TERRIE BARRIE

HANS BEHLING, SC&A

MARY GIRARDO

SAM GLOVER, DCAS

JENNY LIN, HHS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

JIM NETON, DCAS

LAVON RUTHERFORD, DCAS

BILL THURBER, SC&A 
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Item Page

Welcome/introductions 3

Hooker Electrochemical 4

SC&A review of DCAS White Paper

 on Surrogate Data Use

DCAS Response

Issues resolution

WG Recommendation to Board

Electro Metallurgical 20

DCAS report on work in progress/

path forward; ore work

United Nuclear 41

DCAS report on work in progress/

path forward

WG Plans 64

Adjournment 66
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:00 a.m.

3 MR. KATZ: Let's begin with roll 

4 call. First of all, this is the Advisory 

5 Board on Radiation and Worker Health; this is

6 the Uranium Refining Atomic Weapons Employers

7 Work Group, formerly called the TBD-6001 Work

8 Group.

9 (Roll call.)

10 MR. KATZ: All right. So let me 

11 just remind everyone on the line, please mute

12 your phone, except when you are addressing 

13 the group. If you don't have a mute button, 

14 press *6, that will mute your phone. Press 

15 *6 again to take your phone off of mute. And

16 please, at no time put the call on hold. If 

17 you need to leave for a while, hang up and 

18 dial back in. 

19 Thank you very much. And Andy, 

20 it is your agenda. 

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. The 

22 first on the agenda is Hooker Electrochemical
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1 and I believe the main thing is the review by

2 SC&A and the White Paper going through the 

3 surrogate data use criteria that the Board 

4 established. 

5 MR. THURBER: John, do you want me 

6 to pick that up?

7 DR. MAURO: Yes, Bill, just by 

8 way of orientation it might be helpful. Did 

9 everyone receive Bill Thurber's e-mail dated 

10 August 15? It was our attempt, or SC&A's 

11 attempt to collect everything. As you know, 

12 there are a number of sites that fall under 

13 the AWE Work Group and various stages of 

14 maturization. Some of them have been very 

15 mature, such as Hooker and United Nuclear and

16 Electro Met and others are in their infancy, 

17 such as Baker-Perkins and DuPont. Bill did a

18 nice job in assembling the matrices for all 

19 of these and have a cover that sort of gives 

20 a status as we understand it as of today. 

21 And so, if you don't have that, let us know. 

22 Ted, did you receive a copy?
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1 MR. KATZ: It was dated, you 

2 said, yesterday?

3 DR. MAURO: Yes, dated 

4 yesterday. So, yes, some of us may have been

5 on travel. It was sent out. Quite frankly I

6 asked Bill to do it, thinking that even 

7 though it wasn't really explicitly asked of 

8 us, I said "listen, there's so much here and 

9 it could get kind of confusing. It would be 

10 a good idea to get it all in one place." If 

11 you don't have it in front of you, don't 

12 worry about it. We will work our way through

13 it. But you should have it and I think it 

14 will be useful in going forward because it 

15 puts everything in one place. But with that,

16 and don't worry if you don't have it in front

17 of you, I will ask Bill to kick it off with 

18 Hooker.

19 MR. KATZ: Let me just say, this 

20 is Ted -- oh, let me remind everyone to 

21 identify themselves when they speak, for the 

22 court reporter. So I have it and I see that 
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1 it was sent to all of the Board Members' CDC 

2 addresses as well as to related staff, I 

3 believe. So, yes. I think --

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: It is six 

5 pages?

6 DR. MAURO: That sounds about 

7 right.

8 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, yes I 

9 got it.

10 MR. KATZ: I don't know if Dave 

11 Allen received it or not. 

12 MR. ALLEN: Yes, we got it here.

13 MR. KATZ: I did, and Sam. So 

14 everyone seems to have it. And the other 

15 important document is, the one that John has 

16 mentioned, is back in July, I think on July 

17 8, he sent out a review of Hooker and a 

18 matrix back then too.

19 MR. THURBER: This is Bill 

20 Thurber. Ted, that review is also included 

21 as the matrix for Hooker that is in this 

22 packet that you all got yesterday. Anyways, 
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1 with regard to Hooker, at the last Work Group

2 meeting, SC&A was tasked to review the NIOSH 

3 White Paper on the use of surrogate data at 

4 Hooker. And prior to SC&A performing its 

5 review, NIOSH was asked to update their White

6 Paper to include specific reference to the 

7 air samples that they had actually used in 

8 their analysis. And David Allen issued a 

9 revision of the White Paper shortly after the

10 May 16 Work Group meeting, and we then 

11 reviewed that document and provided a White 

12 Paper dated July 7. And in that White Paper, 

13 we concluded, as you can read in the summary 

14 of the status report as follows: "Based on 

15 our review we believe that NIOSH has 

16 addressed the ABRWH surrogate data criteria 

17 in an appropriate manner and that the use of 

18 surrogate data at Hooker is consistent with 

19 the Board criteria. Use of the selected 

20 surrogate data will result in plausible 

21 bounding estimates for internal exposures at 

22 Hooker." 
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1 So, we felt that NIOSH had done a 

2 fine job in addressing the surrogate data 

3 question. 

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Any 

5 questions? Bill, do you have any questions?

6 MEMBER FIELD: No.

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

8 DR. MAURO: This is John. I 

9 believe that was the only open item. 

10 Everything else was closed at previous 

11 meetings.

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: All right. 

13 Looking through the matrix, that seemed to be

14 --

15 DR. MAURO: That's correct.

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: The only, as 

17 I recall -- does this relate just to the slag

18 surrogate? Did we deal with the surrogate 

19 data that was used for the other exposures?

20 MR. THURBER: The exposures were 

21 only from slag.

22 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. So do 
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1 we have anything else on Hooker then at all?

2 MR. THURBER: That's all we have 

3 from SC&A's standpoint.

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. I 

5 have on the agenda here --

6 MR. KATZ: Oh, Andy?

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

8 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry. This is 

9 Ted Katz. So, if you have closed all the 

10 issues, I mean, the next step to do before 

11 you leave Hooker is to come up with a Work 

12 Group recommendation and a plan for 

13 presenting. It is on the agenda for the 

14 Board meeting next week.

15 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: It is? 

16 Okay. I didn't see that.

17 MR. KATZ: It is, and so -- I 

18 believe it is. I hope I'm not confused about

19 that, but it certainly should be. Hold on a 

20 second. Let me see what day it is on. Yes, 

21 it's on Wednesday and you were presenting. 

22 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay.
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1 MR. KATZ: You are presenting 

2 for the Work Group.

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay.

4 MR. KATZ: Reporting out for the 

5 Work Group on Hooker. And we'll need a 

6 presentation, whether you do it just orally, 

7 but it would be best if you actually come up 

8 with either a PowerPoint where there will be 

9 some slides or a written presentation. And 

10 the DCAS folks and the SC&A folks can assist 

11 you with that, to the degree that you want 

12 help, summarizing what the Work Group 

13 reviewed, found, and its recommendations. 

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

15 MR. KATZ: I think the first 

16 thing formally, I think you have all agreed 

17 with the Work Group on the individual 

18 findings and closing them but you haven't 

19 actually, I don't believe, but I didn't 

20 finish reviewing all of the transcripts of 

21 the last meeting. I don't believe you 

22 actually made, specified a recommendation for
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1 the Board, but it would be appropriate to do 

2 that as a Work Group first, because then it 

3 ends up being a motion to the Board.

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. There 

5 is only two of us of the three, so I don't 

6 know if --

7 MR. KATZ: There is only two or 

8 three, that's true but two of three is a 

9 majority already. And keep in mind that this

10 is really, it only ends up being a motion 

11 before the Board, so it's not that critical 

12 that you have everyone. It is always good 

13 to, we prefer to, but Mark hasn't been able 

14 to make these meetings and we don't want to 

15 leave this live forever. Mark can certainly 

16 weigh in at the Board meeting.

17 MEMBER FIELD: Ted, this is Bill. 

18 I think that Mark can easily review maybe 

19 what Andy puts together in the minutes from 

20 the last meeting to see if he is in 

21 agreement.

22 MR. KATZ: Absolutely. So Andy, 
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1 I know we are very short on time, but the 

2 thing we normally do is, and I would send 

3 around the transcripts of the meetings to all

4 of the Board Members, not just to Mark. But 

5 if you have time to get a brief presentation

6 together, you would circulate it to your 

7 fellow Work Group Members so that they could 

8 say I agree or give you any suggestions if 

9 they have suggestions for the presentation.

10 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Sure. So, 

11 Bill, I don't know if the Chair can make a 

12 motion or not. But it seems to me that after

13 our review and we've closed things out that 

14 the motion would be to accept the NIOSH 

15 recommendation, which was to -- wasn't it 

16 NIOSH's position that they could do dose 

17 reconstruction?

18 MR. ALLEN: Yes, this is Dave 

19 Allen. That was our recommendation in the 

20 Evaluation Report.

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Right.

22 DR. MAURO: And SC&A's 
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1 findings, as a result of this process, is 

2 that we concur.

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. So 

4 that would seem to be the motion from the 

5 committee would be that we will accept 

6 NIOSH's proposal that they are able to do 

7 dose reconstruction that would be claimant8 favorable and therefore it would be to deny 

9 the petition? Bill? 

10 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, I am just 

11 trying to get off mute here -- yes, I think 

12 that's correct, Andy.

13 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

14 DR. MAURO: If I may help, this 

15 is John. One of the issues always, as you 

16 know, is surrogate data and we will be more 

17 than happy to help out in any way we can, if 

18 you need help. I'm sure David is the same, 

19 in putting together the slides that summarize

20 the large number of issues that were 

21 entertained, the number of changes that 

22 occurred in the process. And of course 
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1 always the matter of surrogate data is always

2 of great concern to the Board and how that 

3 was, came to resolution and why. Why we felt

4 that it met the five criteria the Board has 

5 developed -- those are always of great 

6 interest to the Board. So any way we can 

7 help, we will be glad to help out.

8 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: What I was 

9 going to -- let's first do the -- I guess if 

10 Bill and I are both in agreement on that for 

11 the proposal, then we will move forward with 

12 the recommendation and then I will need to 

13 have the assistance on the presentation. I 

14 don't know if I have it. I may, but I'm sure

15 one of you probably has it more handy than I.

16 If you have the first presentation, slides 

17 from the first presentation that were made by

18 NIOSH on their recommendation, that set of 

19 slides, I could probably pick from that. And

20 then, John, if you folks are willing to do 

21 that, if you could put together some slides 

22 from the matrix.
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1 DR. MAURO: Sure.

2 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: And I think 

3 we will circulate to the full Board your July

4 7 White Paper review, as well as the NIOSH 

5 summary that they did -- or that you reviewed

6 actually.

7 DR. MAURO: Sure.

8 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: So those 

9 seem to be the key documents. So John, 

10 maybe, if you could put together a couple of 

11 slides from your White Paper review of the 

12 surrogate data issue. That seems to me to be

13 the real issue here, and of all of the 

14 surrogate data issues that the Board has 

15 addressed, this one, to me anyway, seems to 

16 be a little more straightforward than usual 

17 because it just deals with the slag and the 

18 slag handling at the various surrogate 

19 facilities and really very similar to what 

20 was done here. 

21 MEMBER FIELD: And Andy, this is 

22 Bill. I think it would be helpful too if we 
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1 could just find a few minutes Tuesday to talk

2 about the issues with Mark.

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes. We 

4 will try to do that.

5 MEMBER FIELD: Yes.

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I don't know 

7 if he is going to be out there or not. But 

8 we can maybe touch base with him by phone.

9 MR. KATZ: Mark gets out there, 

10 I believe, Tuesday night.

11 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

12 MR. KATZ: Wait. The Board 

13 meeting starts Tuesday. No, no. So he gets 

14 out there, I believe, Monday night, and he 

15 will be there Tuesday and Wednesday.

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Oh, good. 

17 Then we can get together with him on Tuesday.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes. John, is that 

19 clear for you, to summarize the matrix so 

20 that people know what issues are where and 

21 how they were resolved and then address the 

22 surrogate data in a series of slides that 
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1 Andy can use?

2 DR. MAURO: Glad to do it. We 

3 will try to turn it into something giving it 

4 more of a -- not just itemize the issues but 

5 sort of tell the story of the issues.

6 MR. KATZ: Absolutely.

7 DR. MAURO: Yes, and how they 

8 were resolved. Yes, we'll do the way we've 

9 done these kind of things before.

10 MR. KATZ: Yes. That would be 

11 very helpful. In terms of timeline here, I 

12 know it's very late today. We are already 

13 here on Tuesday. Zaida will need the 

14 presentation for the Board meeting and so on 

15 at the very latest by Friday. So that is 

16 sort of the framework we are dealing with for

17 timing.

18 DR. MAURO: We'll get on this 

19 right away and certainly circulate it with 

20 David and Jim. In effect, what we will be 

21 trying to do is capture the sense that 

22 emerged from the whole process in a story 
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1 that is balanced and it is probably a good 

2 idea that, if it is okay with everyone else, 

3 that when I sent a draft out to the Work 

4 Group, I'll simultaneously send it to Jim and

5 David for their consideration and Sam. See 

6 if there is anything else or rewording. This

7 way we're sort of all on the same page. I 

8 think that's appropriate to make sure that it

9 catches the whole story. 

10 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I will be 

11 around all week. So if you can get that to 

12 me by Thursday, we can finalize it and get it

13 to Zaida.

14 DR. MAURO: I will try to do 

15 better than that. 

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I was just 

17 looking at it. If I was going to do it, it 

18 was going to be this weekend.

19 DR. MAURO: No, well, today's 

20 Tuesday, yes, we should be able to get 

21 something out by Thursday.

22 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, great.
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1 MR. KATZ: That is great. That 

2 is much appreciated, John. Thank you. 

3 DR. MAURO: That is the only 

4 one we have. I am making promises like that 

5 guy in that commercial.

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

7 (Laughter.)

8 DR. MAURO: Never mind.

9 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. So I 

10 think we've got that. Any other comments on 

11 Hooker people have?

12 MR. KATZ: Andy, can I just 

13 check on the line? This is Ted Katz again. 

14 Do we have the petitioner for Hooker on now? 

15 No, okay. Okay, carry on, Andy. I'm sorry.

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. I 

17 didn't hear them up front. So let's move on 

18 to an update on Electro Metallurgical.

19 MR. THURBER: Okay, this is Bill 

20 Thurber. We provided in the status report, 

21 which you received yesterday, an update on 

22 the Electro Metallurgical company matrix, 
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1 which you all have and there were a number of

2 findings of which -- I'm sorry. I'm looking 

3 at the wrong matrix. 

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I don't 

5 think you sent out that.

6 MR. THURBER: Yes, everyone should 

7 have it. It comes after the Hooker matrix in

8 the package.

9 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, 

10 because I only got six pages. 

11 MR. THURBER: There are actually 

12 18 pages. Does everyone else have 18 pages?

13 DR. NETON: We do here in NIOSH 

14 for the whole transmittal on yesterday's 

15 transmittal.

16 MR. THURBER: Yes, right. 

17 MS. GIRARDO: Excuse me, this is 

18 Mary Girardo in Niagara Falls. Sorry for 

19 interrupting, but apparently something got 

20 hooked up on this phone conference. 

21 DR. MAURO: Mary -- am I the 

22 only one that can hear Mary? Hello?
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1 MS. GIRARDO: Yes, I'm on.

2 DR. MAURO: I hear you, Mary, 

3 and this is John Mauro. I'm not sure if 

4 everyone else does.

5 MR. KATZ: I do.

6 DR. NETON: This is NIOSH in 

7 Cincinnati. We hear her.

8 DR. MAURO: Okay. 

9 MS. GIRARDO: Yes. Something got 

10 hooked up here because you weren't hearing me

11 so I had to re-call in. So is this the end 

12 of Hooker Chemical as far as you people are 

13 concerned?

14 MR. KATZ: Mary, this is Ted 

15 Katz.

16 MS. GIRARDO: Yes.

17 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry. Are you 

18 the petitioner for Hooker?

19 MS. GIRARDO: Yes, I am. 

20 MR. KATZ: Thank you. That's why 

21 I asked if there was a petitioner for Hooker 

22 on the phone. 
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1 MS. GIRARDO: Yes, I tried to 

2 respond but you weren't hearing me.

3 MR. KATZ: Yes, I'm sorry about 

4 that. But you certainly have an opportunity 

5 if you want to comment to the group. I 

6 assume you heard the discussion. I know you 

7 were on the previous teleconference -- or 

8 actually it was a face-to-face.

9 MS. GIRARDO: Yes, but this 

10 seems to be like a closed group. The 

11 petitioner is kept in the dark. The minutes 

12 have not been put on the website. So there's

13 nothing from the last meeting to counteract 

14 this thing about surrogate data. There is 

15 questions about that. There has been no 

16 opportunity to speak. It has just been 

17 closed session for SC&A and NIOSH. So, I 

18 really don't know what you guys have been 

19 doing. Don't know what you are talking 

20 about. The White Paper deal, the petitioner 

21 hasn't received anything dealing with White 

22 Paper. So we don't really know what in the 
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1 world you are doing. So, in other words, 

2 it's like a closed session and we're not to 

3 know. So that's my complaint.

4 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry about that, 

5 Mary, but the transcript is on the website 

6 actually, for the last meeting. The White 

7 Papers -- I really don't keep track of 

8 whether, for example, the NIOSH White Papers 

9 have been PA, Privacy Act, cleared or not. 

10 But certainly you can --

11 MS. GIRARDO: But you are making 

12 these decisions, folks, based on what you 

13 know and what nobody else knows and that's 

14 not fair. We have nothing to look at, 

15 whether we understand it or not, we have 

16 nothing in front of us to see what in the 

17 world you are talking about to even make a 

18 stab at it. This is wrong.

19 MR. KATZ: David, do you know if 

20 the DCAS White Papers are Privacy Act 

21 cleared?

22 MR. ALLEN: No, Ted, I don't 
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1 know off the top of my head.

2 MR. KATZ: Okay. Well, one 

3 thing we can do in the meanwhile is check on 

4 that. Get them cleared. You can have copies

5 of those White Papers that have come since 

6 the NIOSH Evaluation Report. And likewise, 

7 we will do the same thing with the SC&A White

8 Papers on Hooker, if they are not already 

9 cleared. And I believe I've asked for those 

10 to be cleared but I couldn't be certain that 

11 they are out and available already because 

12 there is a process in reviewing them.

13 MS. GIRARDO: Well, if you were 

14 in my position, wouldn't you think that this 

15 was a fixed-up job, that it was all planned? 

16 Because it's very suspicious, this whole way 

17 that you are doing things. And if a person 

18 is suppose to speak in front of the Board, 

19 you've got to know exactly what in the world 

20 you are talking about to some degree, don't 

21 you?

22 MR. KATZ: I actually agree, and 
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1 that's why we have these meetings in public, 

2 on the phone, with a phone line and that's 

3 why we do put out transcripts for these 

4 meetings.

5 MS. GIRARDO: But, first, the 

6 petitioner is told that they don't speak 

7 unless you people give the go-ahead. We 

8 aren't even allowed to speak. So, I'm 

9 surprised that you are even listening to me. 

10 I've been told more than once that this 

11 meeting, the petitioners are not allowed to 

12 speak. So now, here I am speaking. So you 

13 see, I don't understand this whole routine. 

14 I really don't. And this part about 

15 surrogate data and slag, you guys just don't 

16 make sense at all. You have to talk to the 

17 common people. You have to talk in plain 

18 English. And you've got to make it clear to 

19 people what in the world you are dealing 

20 with. And you can't just say slag surrogate 

21 data, everything's fine. Well, it may be 

22 fine with you but it is sure not fine with 
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1 the rest of us. So I thank you, and I'm 

2 going to exit this meeting because I see no 

3 point in continuing in on it. Thank you very

4 much for the opportunity. Goodbye. 

5 MR. KATZ: Okay, Andy?

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

7 MR. KATZ: Okay, I think we can 

8 proceed from there. And we will work on 

9 getting Mary at least the White Papers.

10 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Is the 

11 matrix an available item or not?

12 MR. KATZ: We can -- well, the 

13 matrix itself -- we can PA clear anything, 

14 yes. So we will get this latest matrix on 

15 Hooker PA cleared. We really just need that 

16 section PA cleared. And like I said, I 

17 believe I've asked for the Hooker White Paper

18 to be PA cleared, so I believe your SC&A part

19 is probably done by now, cleared and ready to

20 go to her. And I would ask if we could do 

21 the same for its White Paper.

22 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, those 
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1 seem to be the two key documents that 

2 apparently she hasn't seen, so if we can get 

3 those to her.

4 MR. KATZ: Right. I think that 

5 would be good.

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: And we need 

7 to be able to arrange, I assume she won't be 

8 -- or maybe she will be out in Pasco but at 

9 least have her be able to be on --

10 MR. KATZ: Yes, that is already 

11 arranged. I mean, someone from NIOSH 

12 contacts each of the petitioners and informs 

13 them about what's on the agenda and finds out

14 whether they are interested in speaking to 

15 the Board, either in person or by phone. So 

16 that should already be taken care of.

17 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

18 Because she didn't know that, maybe she 

19 didn't know that we were this close to just 

20 having the one issue. 

21 MR. KATZ: Well, yes. I mean, 

22 frankly, I thought that the discussion at the
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1 last meeting was very clear and sort of 

2 systematic in going through the issues and 

3 closing the issues. I can understand though,

4 you know, folks in the public, the 

5 petitioners, they have a hard time following 

6 along on these technical issues. 

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

8 MR. KATZ: And you know in some 

9 Work Groups, they've asked for things made in

10 a sort of simplified form for them produced 

11 and we've been able to do that in some cases.

12 We did some of that for Linde, I think. But

13 it is very tough for them to follow the 

14 technical issues, which is not their bag, 

15 particularly if they are not someone who 

16 worked at DOE or worked in these processes at

17 DOE, trying to understand what is being 

18 discussed is hard.

19 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, well 

20 let's then, as long as you are going to be 

21 taking care of getting what information is 

22 cleared to her, that would be helpful.
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1 MR. KATZ: Yes. I will follow 

2 through on that.

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, and I 

4 found the 18 pages. I had somehow or other 

5 only six printed for me. So go ahead, I got 

6 it up.

7 MR. THURBER: Okay, good. This is 

8 Bill Thurber again. Do you want to go 

9 through these findings item by item or how 

10 would you like to proceed on this? In a lot 

11 of cases, when these findings were discussed 

12 at the May 16 Work Group meeting, NIOSH said 

13 that they were still waiting on information 

14 from DOE, and without this additional input 

15 from DOE, there were many of the findings 

16 that were in abeyance because they couldn't 

17 come up with a good source term calculation. 

18 So, however you would like to proceed. We 

19 can go through them item by item or whatever.

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Well, if we 

21 could just --

22 DR. GLOVER: I just want to make a 
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1 suggestion. This is Sam Glover at NIOSH. We

2 finally received the letter from Department 

3 of Labor so I thought maybe -- so we really 

4 hadn't had a chance to proceed on that 

5 because we needed our source term 

6 information. Maybe we could just go over 

7 some of the things that we have been able to 

8 cover because we really, until we got that 

9 information, couldn't proceed.

10 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

11 DR. GLOVER: It's up to you.

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: That sounds 

13 good.

14 DR. GLOVER: I certainly, if 

15 SC&A, Bill, if you still had action items. I

16 think most of the things were in our court 

17 though.

18 MR. THURBER: They were all in 

19 your court, Sam, I believe. Trying to make it

20 easy.

21 DR. GLOVER: There you go. Make 

22 it easy that way. So here's what we've made 
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1 progress on.

2 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: That's what 

3 I thought we were just going to hear about 

4 today is if anything has transpired, and it 

5 sounds like it has. So if you want to just 

6 give a quick update on that.

7 DR. GLOVER: So really the 

8 thing, last week we finally received a letter

9 from the Department of Energy regarding ore 

10 operations and thorium operations at Electro 

11 Met and I'm just going to paraphrase. Ted, I

12 apologize. I was on travel a lot and didn't 

13 get to forward -- I had forgotten to forward 

14 that to you guys. So Ted, you should have a 

15 copy of that now, if you don't mind 

16 forwarding that to the appropriate folks. So

17 I did include Ted on that letter. Basically,

18 they said that they looked at our 

19 information. They can't really put a 

20 timeframe of when ore operations were there 

21 nor really what the scope is. Dave Allen and

22 I went through the operations very thoroughly
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1 and back to the letters. And everything we 

2 can tell, with the information we have, shows

3 that it was probably a laboratory level 25/50

4 pound kind of operation conducted earlyish in

5 the `44, `45 time frame at Electro Met. So 

6 DOE doesn't give any additional information. 

7 They didn't find anything additional to what

8 we had. They do concur that there was some 

9 ore there. They couldn't put time scopes to 

10 it. They did also say that they were going 

11 to remove thorium from the listing that they 

12 had included because they had no information 

13 thorium had been included. They have no 

14 information that shows thorium was ever at 

15 the facility. So, you now have a copy of 

16 that letter. So that -- we thought there 

17 might have been several tons that were 

18 shipped. That may not be the case. It looks

19 like a more modest amount, as we review the 

20 records more carefully in the overall set, 

21 but at least what we understand. I think 

22 where that leaves us, however, is the back-
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1 extrapolation timeframe where we are looking 

2 at back-extrapolating using that `48 data to 

3 go back to `43. So where I am, as I talk to 

4 Jim and Dave and Stu, is that we are 

5 currently reviewing our data as it supports 

6 dose reconstruction and we are focusing on 

7 concentrating on that back-extrapolation 

8 timeframe. So that's really the focus where 

9 we are at, what data we have and whether 

10 that's going to support that timeframe for 

11 dose reconstruction, mostly regarding the 

12 uranium data and not concentrating on this 

13 ore component.

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: We don't 

15 know -- we are not going to find out how much

16 ore was processed, it sounds like. I mean, 

17 you have a sense that it might not have been 

18 very much, but we really don't know.

19 DR. GLOVER: DOE was hesitant to 

20 -- I can read -- let's see. I will read a 

21 little more carefully here. "This document 

22 confirms that Electro Met received varying 
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1 grades of uranium ore from the Belgian Congo. 

2 The facility supported the beneficiation 

3 program which involved assessing different 

4 ore leaching methods to determine the best 

5 approach to larger-scale mill operations to 

6 recover uranium. They were unable to find any

7 additional documents relevant to our 

8 request."

9 And that's pretty much where they 

10 left it. So that is --

11 DR. NETON: This is Jim. DOE is 

12 not able to tell us how much was there. All 

13 records that we have, as Sam said, indicate 

14 small quantities. But we, as Sam indicated, 

15 are refocusing our efforts on looking at the 

16 dose reconstruction process for the earlier 

17 years, in light of, frankly, SC&A's findings,

18 and our looking at it a lot closer. And we 

19 feel that is the place to look right now to 

20 see if we can actually continue to do dose 

21 reconstructions and will come to some 

22 determination in the near future on that. 
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1 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: So that's 

2 really finding number two is still on hold 

3 while you look at things.

4 DR. NETON: Right. We think if 

5 something comes up where we feel that maybe 

6 dose reconstruction is not possible, I'm not 

7 saying we've reached that determination, but 

8 saying we did, it would be on a uranium 

9 basis, and that would sort of make the ore 

10 situation, I don't want to say irrelevant, 

11 but --

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes. Okay. 

13 DR. MAURO: Jim, this is John. 

14 Now my recollection is that when I think 

15 back of many of these different sites we work

16 on. Really the only thing I am able to keep 

17 in my mind is the 30-second sound bite until 

18 I actually go into it. But I remember there 

19 were two aspects of this particular site that

20 remained with me. One is, back-extrapolating

21 from `47/'48 data when you did have data on 

22 uranium and then back-extrapolating to the 
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1 earlier `40s, which is what you just 

2 mentioned. And the other one had to do with 

3 -- and I remember Bill explaining to me that 

4 Electro Met is a very, very large site. And 

5 the place where the operations took place 

6 that are under discussion was -- the way I 

7 keep it in my head, a postage stamp on this 

8 large envelope and there was some questions 

9 on whether or not, when the issues are being 

10 aired, whether or not we are able to confine 

11 our concerns to just this localized area that

12 perhaps was under tight security control, 

13 access control where we knew who was going in

14 and going out and therefore the issue is just

15 the smaller area where the work was going on 

16 or whether there was, as we ran into, I guess

17 in GE, more of a difficult problem in 

18 defining the size of the area that's under 

19 consideration. Is that still a matter before

20 us?

21 DR. NETON: Well, we examined 

22 that and I think that relates to issue number
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1 one.

2 DR. MAURO: Okay.

3 DR. NETON: No, where was that? 

4 I'm on the wrong --

5 MR. THURBER: Yes, that is finding 

6 one, that is correct.

7 DR. NETON: Finding one, and Sam 

8 I can speak to that but we did follow up on 

9 that with, was it Energy?

10 DR. GLOVER: With Department of 

11 Labor.

12 DR. NETON: Labor rather. Go 

13 ahead, Sam. Tell them what we found.

14 DR. GLOVER: So we spoke with 

15 Department of Labor regarding this and based 

16 on their records, they cannot differentiate 

17 the people. They just simply do not have the 

18 ability to do it. Yes it is, there is not 

19 differentiation between Electro Met and 

20 Electro Met little in the middle. It is 

21 Electro Met. So they don't say the little 

22 building here, they call Electro Met Electro 
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1 Met. And when they go do employee 

2 verification they simply do not have the 

3 records. We've got that documented and DOL 

4 puts people in places. Whether we try to 

5 make that distinguished, you try to 

6 distinguish that or not, they can't put them 

7 in place. That's how they are going to treat

8 them. That's what they've told me. There's 

9 nothing I can do. 

10 DR. MAURO: Okay, that helps, 

11 because I remember that was important because

12 the number of people changes dramatically in 

13 terms of the issue, depending on how you draw

14 those boundaries.

15 DR. GLOVER: So I apologize that 

16 I haven't gotten farther for you on this but 

17 we had to wait until we got the ore 

18 discussion.

19 DR. MAURO: No, I understand.

20 DR. GLOVER: So that's, we will 

21 proceed with due haste and get some 

22 additional follow-up on these action items.
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1 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, 

2 others?

3 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, this is Bill. 

4 I just had a question. Does anyone know 

5 what the original source was to indicate that

6 there may have been thorium used at the site?

7 DR. GLOVER: We have no idea. 

8 That was just put into -- they used thorium 

9 at the facility in the `60s or `50s, late 

10 `50s, outside the covered period. So the 

11 facility had some specific, some other things

12 that they cleaned up and so I think it got 

13 drug in from the clean-up documents, some of 

14 the descriptions they had. That, as I 

15 started to think about it more, I think it 

16 came from some different documentation but 

17 not from the DOE process that occurred in the

18 early `40s, to the beginning of the `50s. 

19 MEMBER FIELD: Okay.

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: What about 

21 finding number six on the air?

22 DR. NETON: I think these are 
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1 all related to the general issue of our going

2 back and looking at our ability to 

3 reconstruct uranium.

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

5 DR. NETON: There is a lot of 

6 things we need to consider such as: what kind

7 of work processes were there? Was this 

8 mechanical, shuffling, that sort of thing, 

9 and we are rethinking our position on this 

10 right now.

11 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: So all of 

12 these things kind of roll into that.

13 DR. NETON: All of the internal 

14 issues that are there kind of roll into that 

15 one.

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. So 

17 then it is kind of what's your timeline, do 

18 you think, Jim?

19 DR. NETON: I would say that we 

20 will have a position here well in advance of 

21 the December Board meeting.

22 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay.
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1 DR. NETON: Easy to say now 

2 since it is only August, but I think this 

3 will go fairly quickly on our side.

4 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, great. 

5 Any other questions on Electro Met? Bill? 

6 Do we have the petitioners on? Okay. Either

7 people are on mute and they are talking. 

8 Should we move on to United Nuclear?

9 DR. MAURO: How would you like 

10 to proceed?

11 MR. THURBER: I can pick it up if 

12 you want, John.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes. I know Hans 

14 also, the both of you worked pretty closely 

15 on this. Why don't you get it started?

16 MR. RUTHERFORD: This is LaVon 

17 with NIOSH. I do want to point out the fact 

18 that we haven't issued any White Papers in 

19 resolution to the issues that SC&A has 

20 previously identified from the last Work 

21 Group meeting. We are working towards 

22 resolutions to those issues and actually we 
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1 can provide the Board -- or the Work Group 

2 some better dates on completion of those 

3 issues within the next week or two. We 

4 should be able to finalize some good dates 

5 based on the resources that are available.

6 I just wanted to point that out 

7 instead of going through each of the issues 

8 where we are going to end up coming back to 

9 stating that we are working on those issues 

10 at this time. And, again, we can give you 

11 some better dates here within the next week 

12 or two. I can send that out to the Work 

13 Group as soon as those are available. 

14 DR. NETON: Which site is this 

15 we're talking about?

16 MR. RUTHERFORD: United Nuclear.

17 DR. NETON: Oh, we are skipping 

18 over DuPont?

19 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes.

20 DR. NETON: Okay.

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: We had 

22 started talking briefly about United Nuclear 
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1 but you are still working on that?

2 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes, the actual 

3 matrix that was provided with the grouping 

4 that Bill Thurber provided, I appreciate that

5 because it does actually identify the issues 

6 that are closed and the issues that are open 

7 and the issues focused around the internal, 

8 we are working at, that were previously 

9 identified. And all the issues that are 

10 open, we have action items and we are working

11 to resolve those issues. Again, I anticipate

12 having good dates for the Work Group within 

13 the next week or two weeks.

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

15 MR. RUTHERFORD: That we can 

16 identify future Work Group meetings. 

17 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. Do we 

18 want to go talk about the other sites that 

19 are listed here? I don't know, is there 

20 anything to --

21 MR. THURBER: Neither of, the 

22 other two sites -- this is Bill Thurber. 
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1 Neither Baker-Perkins or DuPont Deepwater 

2 have been on the Work Group agenda. We 

3 provided just for informational purposes the 

4 Baker-Perkins matrix at last Work Group -- or

5 in some of the material we supplied for the 

6 last Work Group meeting. But the matrix was 

7 not reviewed. We just recently, I think in 

8 the last week or so, got DOE clearance and 

9 issued our report on DuPont Deepwater and 

10 have, based on that report, also supplied a 

11 findings matrix. Again, this has never been 

12 discussed. These are kind of just for the 

13 group's information at the moment.

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: And both of 

15 these are just Site Profiles, right?

16 MR. THURBER: Yes. They are both 

17 Site Profile reviews, not SEC.

18 DR. MAURO: And I don't believe 

19 there are any SECs active on either Baker or 

20 DuPont.

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay.

22 DR. MAURO: So these are pure 
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1 Site Profile issues.

2 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

3 MR. ALLEN: This is Dave Allen 

4 from NIOSH. I've got one suggestion. As far

5 as DuPont, as Bill said, we just got this 

6 like last week so we haven't had a chance to 

7 really digest that one yet. But the Baker8 Perkins, Bill, you can correct me if I'm 

9 wrong, but I believe all of these findings 

10 are associated with the original Appendix P.

11 MR. THURBER: Yes, they are, Dave. 

12 I'm pretty they are, yes.

13 MR. ALLEN: Yes. And since that 

14 time, we revised that appendix into a 

15 standalone TBD and when that happened, we did

16 have these findings alongside of us and we 

17 tried to address these findings and the TBD 

18 because the original TBD was based on some of

19 the defaults in TBD-6001 and we had to go 

20 away from that.

21 MR. THURBER: Right.

22 MR. ALLEN: So, my personal 
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1 opinion, I'm thinking this might warrant, I 

2 guess, what would you call it? A focused 

3 review of the TBD compared to these findings.

4 I mean, several of these just seem like they

5 are moot now. 

6 MR. THURBER: That could well be. 

7 And if the Work Group wants us to do it --

8 help me, John, here. I think that we could 

9 certainly undertake a focused review of the 

10 standalone TBD and come up with a revised 

11 matrix.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes. It may turn 

13 out a lot of these go away, as they have in 

14 the past, because you are absolutely right. 

15 I didn't think of that. Because I think the 

16 Baker-Perkins has been, you have reissued, as

17 your cover memo indicate, I believe the 

18 original Baker-Perkins was withdrawn. I'm 

19 not sure. Yes, it was. Let's see, I'm 

20 looking down at the front. Yes, it was 

21 canceled on February 17. Now -- and I am 

22 presuming there is a revised Baker-Perkins 
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1 active now and perhaps -- I don't know, Bill,

2 do you know whether our review was done --

3 MR. THURBER: No, our review was 

4 back in September of last year.

5 DR. MAURO: Okay. So, that 

6 means that our review is dated.

7 MR. THURBER: That's right.

8 DR. MAURO: And so I think it 

9 would not serve the Work Group well for us to

10 review issues given that the -- we probably 

11 should take a quick look. I don't think it's

12 a big deal. I think these are not big 

13 matrices and just to see how you step back 

14 away from TBD-6001 defaults and have adopted 

15 other strategies for dealing with these 

16 matters. I will leave it up to, of course, 

17 you folks, if you like us to go back and 

18 revisit and update our report, revise the 

19 matrix to reflect these changes and then 

20 maybe we will be on better standing.

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I think that 

22 would be a good -- rather than try to go 
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1 through something that's not dated and 

2 support document as changed. I think if you 

3 could redo the matrix, look at your initial 

4 points, see if they are still relevant or 

5 not.

6 MR. THURBER: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: And where's 

8 the new TBD? Is that on the website?

9 MR. THURBER: Yes, it is. It is 

10 covered in the front page of the status 

11 report.

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay.

13 MR. THURBER: Down there 

14 somewhere. It was formerly Appendix P. 

15 There is a link there.

16 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay.

17 MR. THURBER: Which we lifted from 

18 the NIOSH website.

19 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. I see 

20 them now. And 6001 is not there anymore. I 

21 want to be sure I can get it. Okay.

22 DR. MAURO: Now that's not, 
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1 that's not the case of DuPont. DuPont, 

2 unlike Baker, was in fact released recently 

3 and does reflect -- I don't even think DuPont

4 is part -- is DuPont part of 6001?

5 MR. THURBER: Oh, yes. 

6 DR. MAURO: Oh, it was, okay.

7 MR. THURBER: It was Appendix 

8 whatever, P.

9 DR. MAURO: It was one of the 

10 appendices. Well, anyway, that was done only

11 recently and does reflect the latest version 

12 of DuPont. So it doesn't suffer from the 

13 same problem as Baker.

14 MR. THURBER: No, it was the Site 

15 Profile that we reviewed.

16 DR. MAURO: We reviewed the 

17 Site Profile. So of course it was only 

18 issued last week, so certainly NIOSH didn't 

19 have a chance to look over these. If you 

20 would like to quickly go -- there are seven 

21 findings, these are pretty straightforward. 

22 If you want to go through them quickly, or 
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1 would NIOSH care to wait until you have a 

2 chance to look it over, read the report and 

3 then fill in, I guess, column two in the 

4 matrix?

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: My 

6 preference would be, I think we are going to 

7 want to have another meeting before the 

8 December meeting. So, unless NIOSH has some 

9 thoughts on it, rather than have you go 

10 through your comments and NIOSH say, well, 

11 we'll --

12 DR. MAURO: Right.

13 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: We'll look 

14 at them, and so I would like to see the 

15 matrix filled in.

16 DR. MAURO: And I agree.

17 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Then we can 

18 focus on that discussion.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes. And there's 

20 nothing that nuanced about these that require

21 development in a conversation like now. I 

22 think when NIOSH reads it, it will say, oh, 
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1 yes, I can see what this is all about. The 

2 Putzier effect, things like that. Things 

3 that everyone has seen before. So it's not 

4 that there will be any ambiguity about the 

5 points we are making.

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Jim, is that 

7 okay with you?

8 DR. NETON: Sounds good with us.

9 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes. We 

10 don't need a -- any other issues related to 

11 this? So basically DuPont, that matrix is 

12 really still current, where the Perkins one 

13 is now a standalone TBD.

14 MR. THURBER: And we will revise 

15 that and for Baker-Perkins we will revise our

16 report and provide an updated matrix.

17 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

18 DR. MAURO: So SC&A has two 

19 action items: help out the Hooker slides and 

20 re-review Baker-Perkins.

21 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Right.

22 MR. THURBER: That is what I have 
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1 on my list, John, yes.

2 DR. MAURO: Okay.

3 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay.

4 MR. KATZ: Andy, this is Ted 

5 Katz. I just -- and I was dealing with one 

6 of these, Mary's issues for a second, so I 

7 didn't have my ears on for all of the United 

8 Nuclear discussion but do we have a 

9 timeframe, folks, Jim, Dave, for when it 

10 makes sense? I mean, the SECs being a 

11 priority, Electro Met and United Nuclear as 

12 to when we should be meeting next?

13 MR. RUTHERFORD: Ted, this is 

14 LaVon. I'm the POC on United Nuclear and 

15 what I had committed to the Work Group was 

16 that we would be able to provide some good 

17 dates for completing the -- or for producing 

18 some White Papers and stuff on the issues 

19 that were previously identified. I can give 

20 good dates on that probably within the next 

21 week or two weeks. As soon as I get those 

22 good dates, I will get them immediately to 
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1 the Work Group and that will help them 

2 identify a date that we could have our next 

3 Work Group meeting. 

4 MR. KATZ: Thank you, LaVon. 

5 And Electro Met, what's the date frame for 

6 that?

7 DR. NETON: Electro Met, it's 

8 going to take a matter of a few weeks or 

9 more, probably within a month.

10 MR. KATZ: Okay. So that one is 

11 certainly realistic to address in the next 

12 Work Group meeting before the next Board 

13 meeting?

14 DR. NETON: That is what I said 

15 earlier. I thought we could provide them the

16 information well in advance of the December 

17 meeting.

18 MR. KATZ: Great. I'm sorry. It 

19 is my fault for having missed those points. 

20 DR. NETON: I'm just trying to 

21 be consistent, remember what I said. 

22 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: That is what 
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1 you said. You said well before the December 

2 meeting.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. KATZ: Okay. So we will 

5 certainly then wait on you, Lavon, before we 

6 try to schedule the next Work Group meeting. 

7 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Probably 

8 going to have to be some time in November. 

9 MR. KATZ: Right, that's my 

10 guess.

11 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes. Okay. 

12 So we pretty well out of assignments here?

13 MR. KATZ: We do. One other 

14 thing. This is Ted again. One of the things

15 I was looking to is that the transcript from 

16 the last meeting, because I was concerned 

17 about Mary's point she was making that she 

18 doesn't feel like the petitioners have been 

19 given an opportunity to speak for the Work 

20 Group. That wasn't the case at the last Work

21 Group meeting because another petitioner -- I 

22 assume she was a petitioner, but she was 
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1 speaking for the petitioners, did ask about 

2 this and we did say certainly, petitioners 

3 can speak to the group, and she did speak to 

4 the group at the last meeting. 

5 But I do think, to Mary's point, 

6 we probably could be more systematic and 

7 conscientious about asking for petitioners' 

8 comments to make them welcome to speak up in 

9 these meetings. I know we try to do that, 

10 but then we get tangled up in technical 

11 things and just carry on. 

12 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes.

13 MR. THURBER: Ted, this is Bill 

14 Thurber.

15 MR. KATZ: Yes.

16 MR. THURBER: I happened to notice 

17 on the website, the agenda website that it 

18 said this meeting is open to the public but 

19 without a public comment period. So I think 

20 that was probably one of the things she was 

21 referring to as well.

22 MR. KATZ: That is interesting. 
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1 I mean, I didn't even know they made that 

2 notice. We don't have a public comment 

3 period, none of the Work Group do, because 

4 they're really intended for the Board to do 

5 its work. In the rest of the Federal Advisory

6 Committee world, they are not even open to 

7 the public. But we've always, in all of 

8 these Work Groups, invited the public to 

9 comment, particularly dealing with petitions.

10 

11 And most Work Groups, there are 

12 many Work Groups that there are petitioners 

13 who actually participate heavily with 

14 comments during the session even though there

15 is not a public comment session. But they 

16 raise their questions and they make their 

17 comments as we go along, as most of you know 

18 who sit on other Work Groups.

19 So, I know Denise Brock, who's 

20 ombudsman, has been consulting with Mary or 

21 Mary has been consulting with her to help her

22 along. I think she's maybe not so acquainted
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1 with how things go, although the other 

2 petitioners commented at the last meeting, 

3 maybe she felt a little intimidated or what 

4 have you about speaking up. But we certainly

5 can always try to do better on this front. 

6 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: It seems, 

7 and certainly on the phone, I would say it is

8 even for us difficult to follow unless you 

9 have the matrices in front of you. It would 

10 seem to me being able to clear matrices at 

11 some point would -- those are a nice 

12 capsulized summary of what the issues and the

13 discussion has been, and then I think that's 

14 a little easier for them to respond to than 

15 trying to listen as we go forward. And we 

16 have documents in front of us that they 

17 don't.

18 MR. KATZ: Yes. And the 

19 difficulty is, matrices are typically just in

20 time. PA clearing them has been practically 

21 impossible in time for the meetings.

22 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes, I know. 
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1 Okay.

2 MR. KATZ: I have asked for this 

3 one to be PA cleared for Mary, to be sent to 

4 Mary, dealing with the Hooker part of it and 

5 it shouldn't take too long to clear that 

6 piece of it. So, yes, when we can, we PA 

7 clear matrices when we know someone wants 

8 them and when we know, when we get them early

9 enough, but typically get them just ahead of 

10 a meeting and then it's literally impossible 

11 to do that. 

12 DR. MAURO: Ted, I have a suggestion 

13 that might be helpful, because it benefits me

14 very often when I prepare for these. The 

15 matrices serve their purpose well. They keep

16 it organized and keep the work moving and the

17 team, everyone is involved, is tracking it, 

18 and all the history of it is here. But I 

19 could almost envision a person listening in 

20 who may not have been tracking it. And 

21 usually there is a story. As you go back to 

22 the history, a very complex one, United 
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1 Nuclear, for example, which has, I don't even

2 know how many meetings. But it turns out, the

3 way I always look at this is: it always 

4 really boils down to a simple story. The way

5 we talked about Hooker. Well, when we're all

6 said and done, it's really, you've got some 

7 data in the later years but you don't really 

8 have too much data in the early years. And 

9 now there is some question regarding whether 

10 there was how much and whether or not there 

11 was any ore. And all of a sudden it becomes a

12 very simple story. Rather than 25 different 

13 issues that are cryptically identified in a 

14 matrix which would make a person's head spin.

15 If we could start off, especially 

16 a Work Group like this that really has its 

17 work cut out, we're dealing with five or six 

18 different sites. A little bit of, a few 

19 minutes in the front end, to sort of regroup,

20 might be helpful as much to us as it is 

21 certainly to any of the interested parties 

22 that might be listening in.
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1 MR. KATZ: John, I couldn't 

2 agree with you more. And I actually, this is

3 something you have a good talent for too, for

4 sort of just reminding everybody of the story

5 before we delve into it. And I think that is

6 something that might help at the head of 

7 these meetings where when we begin to speak 

8 about a site, to just have a brief recap 

9 orienting the public. In some Work Group

10 meetings we do that. We think of that and 

11 actually --

12 DR. MAURO: Right, right. 

13 MR. KATZ: When we start to --

14 we did that, I think, yesterday, when we 

15 starting marching into a detail and then we 

16 step back and say, wait, let's just, for the 

17 sake people listening, start at the beginning

18 of it. So I think that is a good suggestion.

19 DR. BEHLING: Ted and John, this 

20 is Hans Behling. I do want to make a comment

21 exactly to this issue here because I've been 

22 involved in so many instances with reviewing 
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1 an AWE or a Site Profile or a PER and 

2 initially we go to great lengths to explain 

3 what our concerns may be. And then, of 

4 course, a document that may be 10, 15, 20 

5 pages get condensed to a handful of comments 

6 that enter a matrix and oftentimes there will

7 be subsequent meetings that will occur months

8 or even years later, and no one remembers 

9 exactly what the detailed information was 

10 that was initial trigger for these comments 

11 that ended up being reduced to a single 

12 sentence or two in the matrix.

13 I think it would be very helpful 

14 if in the matrix we identify the date and the

15 title of the document that preceded these 

16 matrix comments so that somebody might could 

17 go back and again refresh themselves as to 

18 what the initial discussions were that gave 

19 rise to the matrix. Because sometimes, after

20 months or years we somehow lose sight of the 

21 complexity of some of the issues that are 

22 overly simplified in the matrix and somehow 
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1 lose their meaning.

2 MR. KATZ: Yes, Hans, I think 

3 your case is particularly true in a site 

4 that's gone through a lot of review and a lot

5 of White Papers and so on. Sometimes the 

6 matrices all represent one review, in which 

7 case it is not such a problem. But I agree 

8 with what you are saying, Hans, with some of 

9 these more complex, long reviews, it gets to 

10 be labyrinthine and it's all, like you say, 

11 condensed into a very brief sound bite in a 

12 matrix.

13 Anyway, this is something worth 

14 discussing offline. I don't know that we 

15 need to do it all for this Work Group because

16 it's really a general issue, but a good one 

17 for trying to make these Work Group meetings 

18 as understandable as possible for people 

19 listening.

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Now that we 

21 have a much larger number of Work Groups, I 

22 think to have some kind of systematic format 
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1 would also help.

2 MR. KATZ: Yes.

3 DR. MAURO: Well, one of the 

4 things -- not to prolong this. But one of 

5 the things we often try to do, at one time we

6 had to, for example, when we were in the 

7 amidst of a number of really big ones, Nevada

8 Test Site, Rocky, Fernald, at least one of 

9 the things we try to do to help the Board, is

10 -- so much work has gone in over years. And 

11 to try to capture the essence of it for the 

12 Board now in a two- or three-pager, which 

13 says okay, listen, this is what transpired.

14 So that does, I can't tell you 

15 how much it helps me, when I'm the one who, 

16 for example, on Fernald on a couple of 

17 occasions I found myself trying to write all 

18 of this down, pull it all together and get it

19 into my head. That kind of thing every so 

20 often is probably a really good idea to do 

21 that. Because they can easily get away from 

22 you and you lose sight of it. I'm thinking 
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1 out loud now. I'm doing a little musing, 

2 Ted. But I think a little bit more of that 

3 goes into it, because the richness of this 

4 program is off the charts, in terms of some 

5 of these sites. And regrouping every so 

6 often for everyone's purposes. I can almost 

7 envision the Board Members listening in on a 

8 vote where something that has a history that 

9 goes back for five years. In any event, just

10 another thought. 

11 MR. KATZ: Okay. Back to where 

12 we are with this. Andy, I will be sending 

13 then to the full Board the White Papers and 

14 background so that they have more context for

15 your presentation as well. So you don't need

16 to worry about that. I will take care of 

17 that just as I have earlier this week for 

18 other sites that are going to be discussed at

19 the Board meeting.

20 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: I've seen 

21 those coming through.

22 MR. KATZ: They won't have your 
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1 presentation. They will get your presentation

2 when it's done, but they will have these 

3 background papers that will help them orient 

4 themselves and have a deeper understanding.

5 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Send them 

6 the matrix as well?

7 MR. KATZ: Yes. I will give 

8 them the matrix but I will give them the 

9 White Papers as well.

10 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: White 

11 Papers, I think are probably the most --

12 MR. KATZ: I will give them the 

13 transcripts where we've discussed this.

14 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay. 

15 MR. KATZ: So anyone who wants 

16 to delve deeper can delve deeper.

17 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Yes. Any 

18 other issues we have? Bill, do you have any 

19 parting thoughts?

20 MEMBER FIELD: No, Andy, I think 

21 everything is pretty much covered.

22 CHAIRMAN ANDERSON: Okay, with 
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1 that I'll accept a motion to adjourn, if 

2 there's no other comment. Or do we have 

3 others on the phone that want to make a 

4 comment? Okay, hearing none, if someone was 

5 talking, we didn't hear you, so think about 

6 mute. So with that, I'll adjourn the Work 

7 Group meeting.

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

9 matter was concluded at 10:13 a.m.)

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