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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH

+ + + + +

WORK GROUP ON PIQUA

+ + + + +

MONDAY 

APRIL 11, 2011

+ + + + +

The Work Group convened via 

teleconference at 9:30 a.m. Eastern Daylight 

Time, John W. Poston, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

JOHN W. POSTON, Sr., Chairman

R. WILLIAM FIELD, Member

PHILLIP SCHOFIELD, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

ELIZABETH BRACKETT, ORAU Team

ROGER HALSEY, ORAU Team

KARIN JESSEN, ORAU Team

JENNY LIN, HHS

JOHN MAURO, SC&A

CHARLES NELSON, DCAS

JIM NETON, DCAS

ARIS PAPADOPOULOS, SC&A

GENE POTTER, ORAU Team

LAVON RUTHERFORD, DCAS

MUTTY SHARFI, ORAU Team

DAN STEMPFLEY, ORAU Team
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:30 a.m.

3 MR. KATZ: Okay. Let's get 

4 started. It's time.

5 This is the Advisory Board on 

6 Radiation and Worker Health Piqua Work Group. 

7 We'll begin with roll call, beginning with 

8 Board Members, with the Chair.

9 CHAIRMAN POSTON: John Poston, no 

10 conflicts.

11 MR. KATZ: Thank you.

12 MEMBER FIELD: Bill Field.

13 MR. KATZ: Go ahead again, Bill 

14 Field, and speak the conflict too, please.

15 MEMBER FIELD: No conflict.

16 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Phil Schofield, 

17 no conflict.

18 MR. KATZ: Very good. Do we have 

19 any other Board Members on the line?

20 Okay. NIOSH-ORAU Team?

21 DR. NETON: This is Jim Neton, 

22 NIOSH, no conflict.
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1 MR. NELSON: Charles Nelson, 

2 NIOSH, no conflict.

3 MR. RUTHERFORD: LaVon Rutherford, 

4 NIOSH, no conflict.

5 MR. SHARFI: Mutty Sharfi, ORAU 

6 Team, no conflict.

7 MS. BRACKETT: Elizabeth Brackett, 

8 ORAU Team, no conflict.

9 MS. JESSEN: Karin Jessen, ORAU 

10 Team, no conflict.

11 MR. HALSEY: Roger Halsey, ORAU 

12 Team, no conflict.

13 MR. POTTER: Gene Potter, ORAU 

14 Team, no conflict.

15 MR. STEMPFLEY: Dan Stempfley, 

16 ORAU Team, no conflict.

17 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry. Can you say 

18 that again, the last one?

19 MR. STEMPFLEY: Dan Stempfley.

20 MR. KATZ: Dan Stempfley? Thank 

21 you.

22 That's quite a crew.
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1 Is that it for NIOSH-ORAU?

2 Okay. SC&A Team?

3 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A, no 

4 conflict.

5 MR. PAPADOPOULOS: Aris 

6 Papadopoulos, SC&A, no conflict.

7 MR. KATZ: Okay. Other federal 

8 officials, contractors for the Feds, HHS or

9 other agencies?

10 MS. LIN: This is Jenny --

11 MR. KATZ: Whoever that was, I 

12 just caught the end of it.

13 MS. LIN: This is Jenny with HHS.

14 MR. KATZ: Jenny, hi.

15 Any others?

16 How about members of the public? 

17 Any members of the public who want to identify 

18 themselves?

19 Okay. John, it's your agenda.

20 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Thank you, Ted.

21 Basically, as I see the agenda, we 

22 have two things to consider.
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1 First, the tritium and carbon-14 

2 issue at the Piqua Organic Moderated Reactor.

3 The other is a recent document 

4 that was March 3, 2011 on the neutron exposure 

5 at the Piqua Reactor.

6 These were the two issues as far 

7 as I could tell that were outstanding that we 

8 needed to have more information on before we 

9 could side or make a vote on whether or not to 

10 accept NIOSH's recommendation that they could 

11 reconstruct dose.

12 Without any order to this, I would 

13 like to start with the tritium and carbon-14. 

14 I know that Mr. Papadopoulos is on the line 

15 and perhaps it would be good to have sort of a 

16 summary of that review of the NIOSH document.

17 MR. PAPADOPOULOS: Okay. We did 

18 respond in a paper the SC&A's response on 

19 that.

20 Our final conclusion was that the 

21 White Paper -- our response was that we agreed 

22 with the NIOSH position on the volatility 
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1 issues of tritium and carbon-14. We agreed 

2 that it's technically defensible.

3 I heard about the teleconference 

4 about half an hour ago. I don't have in front 

5 of me the carbon-14 response or the issue.

6 But if I recall correctly, we 

7 questioned the volatility of the tritium and 

8 carbon-14 when at locations or when outside 

9 when the coolant was exposed.

10 The response was the point for 

11 which carbon-14 and H3 -- the point where the 

12 coolant is solid is in room temperature. 

13 Therefore, it does not release as gases the 

14 carbon-14 and H3 into the airstream.

15 There was a technical presentation 

16 in the paper in terms of those points. They 

17 appear to be technically correct.

18 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I have a 

19 question, perhaps for John Mauro.

20 John, the paper that I reviewed 

21 was labeled draft and it's dated December 20 

22 of last year.
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1 DR. MAURO: Okay.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Has that been 

3 approved? The paper I have wasn't approved by 

4 Mr. Papadopoulos nor you, and I was just 

5 wondering if that's --

6 DR. MAURO: What you have in your 

7 hand, I can say that it has gone through 

8 SC&A's review and approval.

9 Whether or not it has been 

10 actually issued as a White Paper through Nancy 

11 Johnson and is officially part of the record, 

12 I'd have to check with Nancy. I've been 

13 operating on the premise that it has because 

14 it has gone through the SC&A's cycle. And the 

15 summary that Aris just described is as I 

16 recall it.

17 In fact, if I could add one more 

18 point, I believe there was also -- not only 

19 was it theoretically argued regarding the 

20 solidification issue on the organics. But 

21 also there is actually some empirical work, I 

22 believe it was in Idaho, a reactor of a very 
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1 similar nature which had data which confirmed 

2 that the NIOSH strategy for estimating the 

3 potential for airborne exposure was valid.

4 As far as this being officially 

5 delivered, I could find out very quickly for 

6 you by just checking with Nancy.

7 MR. KATZ: John, this is Ted. I 

8 can speak to that. It was officially issued 

9 through Nancy.

10 DR. MAURO: Very good.

11 MR. KATZ: Yes.

12 DR. MAURO: Excellent. So, yes. 

13 That paper is in fact officially on the record 

14 and it's SC&A's position that we find 

15 favorably regarding NIOSH's position.

16 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I just wanted to 

17 make sure that we checked all the boxes and so 

18 forth here.

19 DR. MAURO: Sure.

20 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Any of the Board 

21 Members, Bill or Phil, do you have questions 

22 about the tritium and carbon-14 issue? 
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1 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: No. I think 

2 the White Paper covered it pretty good.

3 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Bill?

4 MEMBER FIELD: No. I didn't have 

5 any problems. I thought it was fine. 

6 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Any of the NIOSH 

7 staff or no need to comment? Do you have 

8 comments you want to make? I don't want to 

9 leave you out.

10 DR. NETON: None here.

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Let's move on to 

12 the next issue, which is the neutron exposure.

13 This was issued March 3 so it's 

14 only about a month old. I don't know exactly 

15 which would be the best way to approach this. 

16 I'm at a little bit of a loss. I can't tell 

17 whether this particular document -- I really 

18 don't remember if this document is an SC&A 

19 document. I think it is. Or is it a NIOSH 

20 document?

21 DR. NETON: John, this was a NIOSH 

22 document that was generated in response to one 
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1 of the comments raised by SC&A.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay.

3 DR. NETON: In fact, it was in 

4 that paper that was just summarized. The only 

5 outstanding issue that they identified there 

6 was the neutron reconstruction.

7 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Would it be 

8 appropriate then to have NIOSH give us a quick 

9 summary of the paper?

10 DR. NETON: Yes. I think that's 

11 appropriate.

12 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I have read it. 

13 Whenever I read something I always put my 

14 initials on it and check it so I know I read 

15 it. But I'm sort of not functioning as well I 

16 perhaps should be today.

17 Let's go on and discuss this 

18 particular document.

19 MR. NELSON: Okay. This is 

20 Charles Nelson. I can summarize the document.

21 Roger Halsey was also quite 

22 involved in writing this. He can jump in as 
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1 necessary.

2 Would you like me to give you a 

3 detailed review or a cursory review?

4 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I mean, I've 

5 certainly read it and I understood it. I'm an 

6 old neutron dosimetrist myself.

7 Why don't you give us a summary? 

8 And if Bill or Phil have questions, we'll go 

9 to those first.

10 MR. NELSON: Okay. That's not a 

11 problem.

12 Some of the areas SC&A was 

13 concerned was the number of personnel 

14 monitored, were they working in containment, 

15 and what types of surveys do you have for the 

16 neutron.

17 That's kind of what the approach 

18 of the White Paper was, let's gather all the 

19 neutron information we have, let's lay it out 

20 and show everybody what exists, and based on 

21 that do we have a good collection of evidence 

22 to say that neutrons were minimal or really 
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1 not an issue, which actually was our 

2 conclusion.

3 As far as monitoring workers, what 

4 we relied pretty heavily upon was interviews 

5 with an HP technician, health physicists, and 

6 workers. Without exception the result of 

7 those interviews was that everybody wore 

8 badges all the time.

9 The HP tech said that the folks in 

10 the Auxiliary Building wore them and they were 

11 exchanged monthly and quarterly. And he never 

12 recalled anyone ever forgetting to wear their 

13 badge. He said they used RWPs and a checklist 

14 prior to going into the area. So they were 

15 controlled, the workers going in there.

16 Also, we have the results of -- it 

17 was actually in one of the case files. It was 

18 an Atomics International employee. In looking 

19 at his records, there was a summary of 31 

20 Atomics International workers that worked in 

21 there between the first two and a half years, 

22 and it had their results. It showed that 
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1 those folks were monitored.

2 Also the HP tech said not only 

3 were Piqua workers monitored; Atomics 

4 International people were monitored as well as 

5 the AEC representative. He also went on to 

6 say that they used NTA-type film.

7 As we've mentioned before in 

8 previous Working Groups, we don't have the 

9 actual results of the dosimetry. Those were 

10 at Landauer and we have not been successful in 

11 recovering those. But we do have AEC summary 

12 reports for every year.

13 We corroborated -- lifted that 

14 data and balanced it against one of the 

15 reports that we have. Everything matches as 

16 far as the doses that the workers received, 

17 less than one rem annually for all the years 

18 except for 1966.

19 Okay. That covers the monitoring 

20 of workers. That was the first part of that.

21 The next theme, access to 

22 containment. I looked at some of the 
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1 transcripts from the first meeting and there 

2 seemed to be maybe a little confusion about 

3 where the containment was and all that type of 

4 information. I'll kind of go over that.

5 Does everybody have in front of 

6 them the Technical Basis, the White Paper for 

7 the neutrons?

8 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I do.

9 MR. NELSON: It's kind of helpful 

10 in looking at some of the pictures.

11 If you look at page 4, Figure 1, 

12 that's a nice view of the reactor containment 

13 dome. That would be to the right.

14 Then you'll see to the left of 

15 that but in the center, that's the Auxiliary 

16 Building. You see the mounded up dirt all the 

17 way around.

18 Then to the left is the spec.

19 The reactor and the Auxiliary 

20 Building together formed a single structure. 

21 The Auxiliary Building had administrative 

22 folks and below it had a filtration and 
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1 exhaust system.

2 There was access between the 

3 Auxiliary Building and the main containment. 

4 That's considered the 100-foot level. That 

5 was an airlock to get into that containment.

6 Then if you look at the next page, 

7 Figure 2, that kind of gives you a good 

8 cutaway drawing to show you the people in 

9 there at the 100-foot level. That's above the 

10 reactor floor.

11 The reactor is actually below all 

12 of that and entombed in concrete, contained 

13 within the lower section.

14 Then looking at one of the 

15 documents we've referenced called Piqua 

16 Nuclear Power Facility Operating Limits and 

17 Controls was a 1965 Atomics International 

18 document.

19 It stated no person shall enter 

20 the reactor containment shelf during periods 

21 when -- without first obtaining permission 

22 from the shift leader. And the work would be 
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1 controlled using a special work permit.

2 It also said in that document that 

3 they found that radiation throughout the plant 

4 was sufficiently low to prevent normal 

5 operation and maintenance activities without 

6 imposing time limits.

7 So people were actually in that 

8 part of the containment periodically after 

9 they verified all the exposure rates in those 

10 areas. I think before there was some question 

11 of whether people were in containment.

12 Now to talk a little about the 

13 shielding, which becomes very important. If 

14 you look at page 6, Figure 3, it has a nice 

15 cross-section of the reactor as well as the 

16 shielding that's involved.

17 Looking at that you'll notice that 

18 there's a big what's called a bioshield on 

19 each side of the reactor. It's 8 feet and, I 

20 think, 4 inches -- 6. It's ordinary concrete.

21 Then within the reactor vessel 

22 there's some other shielding, the thermal 
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1 shield and that type.

2 Above the reactor --

3 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry, Chuck. I'm 

4 sorry to interrupt.

5 Would everybody who is not 

6 speaking please mute your phone? We're having 

7 a lot of feedback or background noise. If you 

8 don't have a mute button, hit *6. That will 

9 mute your phone and *6 again will unmute your 

10 phone.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. NELSON: Okay. As far as the 

13 reactor goes, if you're going upward from the 

14 reactor there is a reactor vessel head at 8 

15 and a half inches of steel. That's a grid 

16 lay-in, I guess, that would be below that at 8 

17 inches. Above that there's 17 and a half feet 

18 of organic coolant.

19 So if you look here and look at 

20 all the shielding that's involved, there's 

21 quite a bit of shielding to keep those 

22 neutrons within the reactor core.
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1 So neutrons aren't an issue unless 

2 the reactor is running. Then we have to look 

3 at where the exposure points are.

4 Rather than me going through the 

5 entire write-up here, the bottom line is they 

6 did many surveys outside of the shielding of 

7 the reactor. They did them at various levels 

8 as they ramped up power, post-critical 

9 operational tests.

10 We have several statements in the 

11 Technical Basis White Paper that support that 

12 no neutrons were located except for one 

13 location. There are actually some coolant 

14 lines that come out the bioshield.

15 This was found in the interviews 

16 with the HP tech. We also found it in 

17 progress reports. Everybody talks about the 

18 one place where there were some neutrons. 

19 They were recorded at less than 0.5 millirem 

20 per hour. That was also stated by the HP 

21 tech.

22 In fact, he said that that's the 
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1 only location they ever found any neutron 

2 unless they were doing a source check. He 

3 said they have never had anybody assigned any 

4 neutron dose and it was never found on their 

5 film badge.

6 Those locations, like I've 

7 mentioned, were in these pump rooms where 

8 these coolant lines came out of this big 

9 bioshield. There was associated gamma dose 

10 rates with them.

11 If you look on page 8, which is 

12 Table 1-2, that was taken right out of one of 

13 the reports. What we're looking at is Item 11 

14 and 12.

15 What it has is, for instance, Item 

16 11 says 13.5. That's millirem per hour. 

17 That's the photon exposure rate -- gamma 

18 exposure rate with an associated less than 0.5 

19 millirem per hour neutron. Right below that 

20 it's 11 millirem per hour gamma and less than 

21 0.5 millirem neutron.

22 Basically, we looked at those. We 
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1 wanted to use those since that's really the 

2 only information we have other than all these 

3 other things that say, "No, we didn't find any 

4 neutrons." This is the only good survey that 

5 we have that shows anything about neutrons at 

6 any level.

7 You can look at Items 1 and 3, 

8 where it says no neutrons. This is the only, 

9 I guess I'd say quantified number. But it 

10 still shows less than 0.5 millirem per hour.

11 Looking at those numbers, that 

12 results in about 3.8 percent or 4.5 percent 

13 neutrons relative to gamma. We're assigning 

14 10 percent or a one to ten ratio in the 

15 Evaluation Report.

16 The technician used what he called

17 a Long John, which is a long counter. That's 

18 a pretty good instrument for measuring 

19 neutrons.

20 That's kind of a quick summary of 

21 it. I can go into more detail if you want. 

22 But hopefully that gives everybody an idea of 
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1 what the White Paper was about and where we're 

2 coming from.

3 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Any questions, 

4 Bill, Phil?

5 MEMBER FIELD: Jim, this is Bill.

6 I just had a question about that 

7 10 percent. Is that the customary ratio?

8 MR. NELSON: No. We went ahead 

9 and did it as claimant-favorable number 

10 because the highest -- we would have about --

11 4.5 percent was the highest that we found. We 

12 believe it to be way less than that but that 

13 was just the claimant-favorable number that we 

14 found.

15 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Bill, I know 

16 that you're always being admonished for using 

17 surrogate data. But in my reactor experience, 

18 the answer to your question is that is 

19 typical. That's a reasonable assumption that 

20 your data shows less but -- moderated 

21 reactors - 

22 Hello?
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1 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Hello?

2 MEMBER FIELD: Hello?

3 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Bill, are you 

4 there?

5 MEMBER FIELD: Yes, I'm here.

6 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: Yes, I'm here.

7 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Do you have any 

8 questions, Phil?

9 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: No, I don't. 

10 The White Paper seemed to answer most of the 

11 questions I had.

12 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay. John, do 

13 you or anybody in SC&A have comments? 

14 DR. MAURO: Yes. Aris did have a 

15 chance to look at it.

16 Aris, I think you actually put 

17 something out on this too.

18 MR. PAPADOPOULOS: Yes. We have 

19 prepared the response, the basic conclusion of 

20 which -- I don't know at what stage it is 

21 right now in terms of being official or not. 

22 But anyway, it was out of my hands going to 
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1 John and the rest of the processing.

2 Based on my cursory review of the 

3 paper, we have concluded that the position is 

4 technically defensible. And the paper's 

5 extensive close look at the data shows that 

6 there are no more concerns or uncertainty 

7 issues related with neutron exposures.

8 We believe that the methodology 

9 described in the Evaluation Report is bounding 

10 and is claimant-favorable.

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Thank you very 

12 much, Aris.

13 MR. PAPADOPOULOS: Sure.

14 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Again, just to 

15 get it on the record but also to refresh my 

16 memory, the recommendation of NIOSH was that 

17 you believed that you could reconstruct doses 

18 for these workers. That's correct?

19 MR. NELSON: That's correct. This 

20 is the operational period.

21 MR. PAPADOPOULOS: During the 

22 operational --
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1 CHAIRMAN POSTON: During the 

2 operational period?

3 MR. NELSON: Yes. This is Charles 

4 Nelson. That's January 1963 through May 1, 

5 1966.

6 DR. NETON: There is already --

7 this is Jim Neton - a Class in the D&D phase.

8 CHAIRMAN POSTON: It's January 

9 1963 through what, again?

10 MR. NELSON: May 1, 1966.

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay.

12 MR. NELSON: The proposed Class 

13 goes from May 2, 1966 through February 28, 

14 1969.

15 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay. So that's 

16 already been added?

17 MR. NELSON: That's already been 

18 added.

19 DR. NETON: That's correct. 

20 That's an added plus.

21 CHAIRMAN POSTON: But we don't 

22 have to consider that in this?
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1 MR. NELSON: No.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: All right. 

3 Bill, I'll try to enunciate. Bill, do you 

4 have any additional questions?

5 MEMBER FIELD: Yes. I just have a 

6 couple maybe Jim could answer.

7 During this operational period 

8 there were no reports of accidents or the 

9 reactor operating above full power?

10 MR. NELSON: This is Charles 

11 Nelson. No. I didn't see anything. I saw 

12 that they went up to 100 percent of power but 

13 no accidents or any exceedance of 100 percent. 

14 I didn't see anything relative to that.

15 I mean, we asked in the interviews 

16 about accidents and there were two issues 

17 brought up, and we found them in reports. We 

18 talked about them actually during the initial 

19 presentation to the Board.

20 MEMBER FIELD: Right.

21 MR. NELSON: But that was, they 

22 had a spill and this material went to near-
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1 room temperature. As soon as it gets below 

2 300 degrees it solidifies into a wax. They 

3 said they simply just scraped it up with a 

4 flat shovel and it was no big deal, no 

5 airborne, no contamination event whatsoever.

6 MEMBER FIELD: Right. But nothing 

7 new since then?

8 MR. NELSON: No.

9 MEMBER FIELD: Okay. Thanks. 

10 That's all I had.

11 CHAIRMAN POSTON: It seems that 

12 it's appropriate that we have some sort of 

13 motion. We've certainly discussed the issues.

14 I think it's inappropriate for the 

15 Chair to make a motion so I'll turn it over to 

16 one of you guys. 

17 MEMBER FIELD: Yes. This is Bill. 

18 I'm more than happy to make a motion to 

19 accept the recommendation.

20 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Is there a 

21 second?

22 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: I'll second 
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1 that motion.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay. Is there 

3 additional discussion before we vote on this 

4 motion? Certainly if there's any questions, 

5 lingering questions or concerns, I want to 

6 make sure that they're addressed while we have 

7 everybody here.

8 Hearing none, I would ask Ted to 

9 call for a swift vote.

10 MR. KATZ: Go ahead. There's 

11 three of you, so one at a time.

12 MEMBER FIELD: This is Bill Field. 

13 Yes.

14 MEMBER SCHOFIELD: This is Phil 

15 Schofield. Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN POSTON: John Poston. 

17 Yes.

18 MR. KATZ: And that would be 

19 unanimous in favor of awarding the NIOSH 

20 recommendation that dose reconstruction is 

21 feasible for this Class.

22 CHAIRMAN POSTON: For January 1963 
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1 through May 1966.

2 Ted, I have a procedural question 

3 for you.

4 MR. KATZ: Yes?

5 CHAIRMAN POSTON: We have a 

6 telephone meeting coming up. Should we report 

7 then or should we wait until the next Board 

8 meeting which is also coming up?

9 MR. KATZ: Let me settle that with 

10 Dr. Melius as to whether he wants that to 

11 happen during a teleconference. Generally we 

12 like to keep these to the face-to-face Board 

13 meetings. I don't know if this is an 

14 exception or not.

15 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I didn't think 

16 it was an exception but I was just wondering 

17 what the procedure is.

18 MR. KATZ: Right. I would plan on 

19 making a presentation to the full Board. At 

20 this time I would just plan on doing that for 

21 the May meeting unless you hear differently. 

22 I'll get back to you very shortly on your 
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1 question.

2 CHAIRMAN POSTON: Okay. That 

3 makes me happy because you know my situation.

4 MR. KATZ: Yes.

5 CHAIRMAN POSTON: I may not be 

6 available.

7 MR. KATZ: Then it's simple to 

8 just keep it to May. I don't even need to 

9 raise the question with Dr. Melius.

10 CHAIRMAN POSTON: All right. I 

11 want to thank everybody for their hard work on 

12 this, their professionalism, and so forth. 

13 I'm glad that we were able to resolve these 

14 issues and come to a unanimous agreement on 

15 the path forward.

16 I appreciate SC&A, NIOSH, 

17 everybody that's participated, and certainly 

18 the two Work Group Members.

19 If there's no other questions, 

20 comments, or statements, I think this meeting 

21 should be adjourned.

22 Any other --
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1 MR. KATZ: No. Thank you, John.

2 And thank you everybody.

3 (Whereupon, at 9:59 a.m. the 

4 meeting was concluded.)

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