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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR OCCUPATIONAL

SAFETY AND HEALTH 

+ + + + +

ADVISORY BOARD ON RADIATION AND

WORKER HEALTH 

+ + + + +

DOSE RECONSTRUCTION SUBCOMMITTEE

+ + + + +

THURSDAY,

NOVEMBER 5, 2009

+ + + + +

The Dose Reconstruction 

Subcommittee meeting convened in the Zurich 

Room of the Cincinnati Airport Marriott Hotel, 

2395 Progress Drive, Hebron, Kentucky at 9:30 

a.m., Mark Griffon, Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT:

MARK GRIFFON, Chairman

BRADLEY P. CLAWSON, Member

MICHAEL H. GIBSON, Member*

WANDA I. MUNN, Member
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ALSO PRESENT:

TED KATZ, Designated Federal Official

NANCY ADAMS, NIOSH Contractor*

ISAF AL-NABULSI, DOE*

HANS BEHLING, SC&A*

KATHY BEHLING, SC&A*

RON BUCHANAN, SC&A*

HARRY CHMELYNSKI, SC&A*

DOUG FARVER, SC&A

STU HINNEFELD, NIOSH OCAS

EMILY HOWELL, HHS

JENNY LIN, HHS*

JOHN MAURO, SC&A*

SCOTT SIEBERT, NIOSH OCAS* 

BRANT ULSH, NIOSH OCAS

*Present via telephone
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T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Roll Call 6

Welcome and Introductions 6

Sixth Set of 20 Case Matrix 9

Seventh Set of Cases 33

Eighth Set of Cases 164

First 100 Cases Issues 252

Draft Letter by Chairman 273
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1 M-O-R-N-I-N-G S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 (9:38 a.m.)

3 MR. KATZ: On the record. Why 

4 don't we begin with roll call?

5 ROLL CALL

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Mark Griffon, 

7 chairing the Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee.

8 MEMBER CLAWSON: Brad Clawson, 

9 Work Group member.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Wanda Munn, 

11 Subcommittee member.

12 MR. KATZ: And on the telephone.

13 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike Gibson, 

14 Subcommittee member.

15 MR. KATZ: Hi, Mike.

16 Okay, and then in the room, NIOSH 

17 ORAU team.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Stu Hinnefeld, 

19 Interim Director for OCAS.

20 MR. ULSH: Brant Ulsh with OCAS.

21 MR. KATZ: And on the telephone, 

22 NIOSH ORAU.
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1 MR. SIEBERT: Scott Siebert with 

2 the OCAS team.

3 MR. KATZ: Hi, Scott.

4 MR. SIEBERT: Howdy.

5 MR. KATZ: Okay. And then we have 

6 SC&A in the room.

7 MR. FARVER: Doug Farver, SC&A.

8 MR. KATZ: And no one else is 

9 going to be here?

10 Okay, and on the telephone for 

11 SC&A.

12 DR. MAURO: John Mauro, SC&A.

13 MR. KATZ: Hi, John.

14 MR. FARVER: Hi.

15 (Simultaneous speakers.)

16 MR. KATZ: I'm sorry. You guys 

17 trampled each other.

18 MR. BUCHANAN: Ron Buchanan, SC&A.

19 MR. KATZ: Hi, Ron.

20 MR. BUCHANAN: Hi.

21 MS. BEHLING: Kathy Behling, SC&A.

22 MR. KATZ: Hi, Kathy.
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1 DR. BEHLING: Hans Behling, SC&A.

2 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Hans.

3 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Harry Chmelynski, 

4 SC&A.

5 MR. KATZ: Welcome, Harry.

6 Okay, and then now federal 

7 officials and contractors in the room.

8 MS. HOWELL: Emily Howell, HHS.

9 MR. KATZ: And on the line.

10 MS. LIN: Jenny Lin with HHS.

11 MR. KATZ: Can you say that again?

12 MS. LIN: Jenny Lin. I'm a new 

13 attorney to the Radiation Compensation.

14 MR. KATZ: Oh, welcome. Alright.

15 MS. AL-NABULSI: Isaf Al-Nabulsi, 

16 DOE.

17 MR. KATZ: Hello, Isaf.

18 MS. AL-NABULSI: Hi.

19 MR. KATZ: And this is Ted Katz. 

20 I'm the Designated Federal Official for the 

21 Advisory Board of Radiation and Worker Health 

22 and Mark, the Chair, you can get going.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Welcome, 

2 everyone. This tends to be a small turnout 

3 for this one, mostly staff, SC&A, NIOSH, et 

4 cetera. But we're continuing where we left 

5 off on the Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee.

6 A quick agenda just to give us a 

7 frame of reference here. I wanted to start 

8 with the sixth set of cases. We only have a 

9 few outstanding findings. I was hoping to 

10 close them out. I'm not sure we're going to 

11 quite be able to, but at least we can get an 

12 update and it shouldn't take very long. The

13 same thing with the seventh set of cases.

14 And then the eighth set of cases 

15 we have; I'm not sure exactly where we stand 

16 with that, but we'll continue on our matrix 

17 and John Mauro has -- Kathy actually forwarded 

18 the documents. I think we definitely want to 

19 focus on Harshaw and Bridgeport Brass. These 

20 are the sort of mini site profiles as I've 

21 been calling them, part of the eighth set of 

22 cases.
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1 And I heard Kathy and Hans are on 

2 this morning. So if it's okay, Kathy and 

3 Hans, we'll probably get to those this morning 

4 before lunch and that way, you may or may not 

5 have to come back on the call in the 

6 afternoon. But we can do those portions of 

7 the eighth set and back to the regular 

8 findings, if that's okay.

9 And then one other item on the 

10 agenda is to go back to this, to revisit the 

11 first 100 cases findings and the Board had 

12 tasked the Subcommittee to looking further at 

13 those findings and looking to see whether 

14 there were sort of categories of deficiencies 

15 and whether these, you know -- which ones we 

16 considered I think the word was critical --

17 which ones we considered critical for the Dose 

18 Reconstruction Program and what else we can 

19 say about those findings, you know, what 

20 changes came about in the Dose Reconstruction 

21 Program as a result of the first 100 cases of 

22 audits.
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1 I drafted something and I just did 

2 it, just finished it yesterday and actually 

3 was editing on the plane this morning. So I 

4 just circulated it now and this morning 

5 amongst the folks here. Actually I might have 

6 missed some. John, I should probably forward 

7 SC&A a copy. I don't think I did that yet, 

8 but I will.

9 DR. MAURO: Okay.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I plan on 

11 discussing that after lunch. It's only a 

12 short sort of -- some brief points. It's 

13 certainly not structured in any kind of final 

14 letter format, nowhere near that kind of 

15 structure. But I wanted to get some thoughts 

16 out and have some further discussion on that.

17 To that end, I also asked Stu to 

18 forward his presentation from a previous 

19 Advisory Board meeting where he went over some 

20 of these sort of categories of findings and I 

21 thought I'd ask Stu to sort of kick off the 

22 thing early this afternoon with that, you 
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1 know, refresh our memory on that presentation 

2 and on the quality control issues. He 

3 circulated a document, too, as well, 

4 describing sort of what some of the quality 

5 controls in the current NIOSH ORAU program. 

6 That will be early afternoon.

7 SIXTH SET 20 CASE MATRIX

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But this morning 

9 we'll start on the sixth set and plunge into 

10 our normal matrix activities. I circulated 

11 the -- I did send out revised versions of the 

12 matrix this time. So I'm working with a file 

13 that's titled Sixth 20-Case Matrix September 

14 3, 2009 and these were all updated as of the 

15 last Dose Reconstruction Subcommittee meeting. 

16 You should have the same kind of file for the 

17 Seventh Set and the Eighth Set. I hope 

18 everyone received those. Let me know if you 

19 need a copy of that.

20 MEMBER MUNN: You sent them out on 

21 the 15th, right?

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess. I 
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1 don't know.

2 Yes, and if we look down them I 

3 left the same kind of format. So 

4 theoretically, anyway, the yellow highlighted 

5 ones in the Resolution column should be the 

6 ones with open action items. So if you scan 

7 down, the first one I find is 104.7. The 

8 number even sounds familiar now. So I think 

9 that is the -- and there was a NIOSH action to 

10 provide a basis for the -- it's a transuranic 

11 question, yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, a little bit 

13 ago I saw we had done something on this and 

14 I'm trying to recover where I saw it. 

15 Essentially what we said, though, was that 

16 these ratios, this is in a particular type 

17 profile, are the same ratios that are in TBD18 6000/6001 which has been reviewed and as I 

19 understand it -- and there's additional 

20 supporting information associated with that, 

21 you know, in the 6000/6001. And my 

22 understanding is that the review of 6000/6001 
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1 didn't find any deficiencies having looked at 

2 that additional supporting information.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes, this is John 

4 Mauro. That's correct. We recently went over 

5 a number of items and that's one of the issues 

6 that are resolved. It's resolved. In fact, 

7 there are -- as we proceed, you'll see that 

8 there are a number of issues related that come 

9 out of the TBD-6000 Work Group that have broad 

10 applicability to many cases.

11 As they emerge, you know, I'll 

12 point out where I believe that there is 

13 consensus by the Work Group, the TBD-6000 Work 

14 Group, that that issue has been resolved. We 

15 have resolved I think there were six or seven 

16 issues and two of them have been resolved and 

17 this is one of them. At least, two of them 

18 have been resolved. So, yes, I agree. And 

19 certainly you could check with Paul, the 

20 Chairperson for TBD-6000, to confirm that that 

21 in fact is the case.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, because I 
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1 was just going to ask that, John. I don't 

2 remember discussing the transuranic question 

3 on the TBD-6000.

4 DR. MAURO: Yes, we basically --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm on that 

6 Work Group, too. Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: Yes, we reviewed the 

8 ratios, the 10 parts per billion, and the 

9 other numbers and, as you'll see we have 

10 issues as they apply, for example, to Fernald. 

11 But we don't have any issues with the ratios 

12 as they apply to AWE facilities for a variety 

13 of reasons. But if you want to discuss that a 

14 little further here, fine. But it is 

15 something that has been and I believe that we 

16 have, SC&A has, reviewed. I think you might 

17 be correct.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I believe 

19 SC&A has reviewed it.

20 DR. MAURO: We reviewed it.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You may have 

22 come to that conclusion, but I'm not sure we 
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1 closed it at the Work Group.

2 DR. MAURO: You know what? I 

3 think you're right. I may have been premature 

4 in saying that we did discuss it. I recall 

5 coming to our position on it. But you're 

6 right. I can't say for certain whether or not 

7 that's an issue that was officially discussed 

8 and resolved with Paul.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean I'm 

10 certainly willing to put -- I get a little 

11 leery of this because -- we've talked about 

12 this issue before -- if I put in here that 

13 it's a TBD-6000, you know, then I guess I need 

14 to keep track. You know we have to cross 

15 reference.

16 DR. MAURO: Yes. In fact, I sort 

17 of would like just to clarify. Yes. This is 

18 an issue that's before TBD-6000. It's an 

19 issue that SC&A has made certain findings and 

20 recommendations regarding it, which is in 

21 favor of it. However, I think you'd best 

22 reserve that to get a formal feedback from 
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1 Paul and the rest of the Work Group on that 

2 matter.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So I'm 

4 not sure what to do here. I mean I could say 

5 currently being discussed by the TBD-6000 Work 

6 Group.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Needs to be 

8 referred to the TBD-6000.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, or I could 

10 just --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Because the same 

12 issue is going to apply to a few others --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. I 

14 agree.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: -- AWE site 

16 profile.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I agree.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm tempted to 

20 -- because I want to close this set out and I 

21 think we only have a few --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: That would be a 
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1 technique for doing it.

2 MEMBER MUNN: That would be a 

3 logical thing to do.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I just 

5 don't want to lose track of it. That's my 

6 point.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we're trying 

8 to develop that database that links all these, 

9 gets all these into one place.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

11 I think that's fine if we want to put that as 

12 our resolution that it's being considered 

13 under the TBD-6000. 

14 MR. HINNEFELD: That would be my 

15 preference.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Like I said, if it 

18 could be --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, let's do 

20 that. I think that makes sense.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: This is a metal 

22 forming. So it would be --
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I'm just 

2 going to -- bear with me because I'm going to 

3 do the same thing is update live so I don't 

4 have to try to recreate this later.

5 MR. KATZ: So, Mark, are you going 

6 to write a note to the TBD-6000 Work Group?

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I guess 

8 I'll have to that same kind of thing.

9 MR. KATZ: I think it would be 

10 good to have a paper trail.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Now that we have the 

13 format, that's easy.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. 

15 Alright. So that's one down.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Is that 107.4?

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, 107.4 is 

18 correct. Not to examine whether chronic is 

19 bounding in this case. I think we had a 

20 pretty strong, general indication that it 

21 would be, but I think that you were going to 

22 look at the case-specific data.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I said. In 

2 fact, my note was sort of an examination of 

3 acute versus chronic in this case. You know, 

4 why chronic was selected.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So I 

6 think we kind of agreed generically. But in 

7 this case we asked specifically to see the --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I haven't been 

9 able to prepare for the meeting very well.

10 Scott, you're on the phone. Do 

11 you know? Did you guys submit something to us 

12 on this particular issue?

13 DR. MAURO: You're talking 107.4?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I was 

15 talking -- yes.

16 DR. MAURO: What --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I was asking Scott 

19 Siebert from ORAU.

20 MR. SIEBERT: Yes, that goes back 

21 to -- I haven't prepared anything 

22 specifically, but I believe this all went back 
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1 to -- from an acute point of view the intake 

2 was so unbelievably large as to be 

3 unrealistic. If I remember correctly, it was 

4 larger than any of the top five that we used 

5 in OTIB-0001 for Savannah River.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. But we 

7 haven't really prepared anything to submit --

8 MR. SIEBERT: Not specifically.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: -- show that in 

10 other words.

11 MR. SIEBERT: Well, I'll have to 

12 go back through the old things that we've 

13 submitted to see if that was actually 

14 specified earlier or not.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Well, then 

16 today we won't be able to do anything with it.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: But we probably 

19 will need something like that. If you 

20 submitted it previously, then you'll just need 

21 to remind me where it was or resubmit it 

22 because I haven't kept track of it I guess.
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1 MR. SIEBERT: You got it.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think 

3 this is a lengthy one, but it would be nice to 

4 close this stuff out.

5 MR. SIEBERT: Yes.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

7 MR. FARVER: Yes. I don't believe 

8 we're going to get anything case specific on 

9 that. It would more be a will be a general --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: You would be saying 

11 with this bioassay if he had a series of 

12 acutes.

13 MR. FARVER: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: The acute would 

15 have to be so big because the bioassay is 

16 pretty far -- stays pretty far apart.

17 MR. FARVER: Doesn't this come 

18 back to the general question of how do you 

19 choose between multiple acutes or single 

20 chronic?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, multiple 

22 acutes though if you're really talking lots of 
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1 multiple acutes.

2 MR. FARVER: No, I mean in this 

3 case.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: You're talking 

5 about a few.

6 MR. FARVER: Yes because for this 

7 specific case --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: This was --

9 MR. FARVER: -- we're not going to 

10 hear anymore.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we're not 

12 going to get anymore.

13 MR. FARVER: A security officer --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we're not 

15 going to get any more specific on this case --

16 MR. FARVER: -- with two bioassays 

17 results, we're not going to get anything 

18 specific for this case. Alright. I don't 

19 know that I'd spend a lot of time on it.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I thought that 

21 that's what we had asked for in the last --

22 MR. FARVER: You want something 
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1 general?

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well I thought -

3 - my note says bounding in this case. The 

4 approach used was bounding in this case.

5 MR. FARVER: Yes, that could be.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I mean 

7 I'd ask, you know -- the transcript should 

8 have exactly what we -- you know.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: It's probably --

10 okay, we can see what we put together -- 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: -- now what we 

13 thought that might be general and how this 

14 case applies to it.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: It might be 

17 something like that. But remember, you know, 

18 Doug's point was a security officer likely has 

19 episodes -- if he has experienced episodes of 

20 acute exposure.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, and I do 

22 remember the rebuttal by Scott about the --
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1 MR. FARVER: Being too high, yes.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Being too high, 

3 the one acute, and yes. It would have been 

4 one of the highest ones ever reported on 

5 Savannah.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: So I guess a 

7 general question. What criteria do you use to 

8 decide that a chronic exposure is okay or that 

9 this should really be looked at as a series of 

10 several acutes?

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. That's 

13 essentially where we ended up.

14 MR. FARVER: I believe so.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So. 

16 Alright, we’ll just leave it, yes. 

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it could be a 

18 work on how many acutes you're going to count 

19 because that will affect what your intake is 

20 if you --

21 MR. SIEBERT: Yes that's -- I've 

22 been looking back and we actually did some 
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1 minutes, a reply that quotes that the acute 

2 intakes would have been that large. The file 

3 name back then -- it was back in November of 

4 2008.

5 MR. FARVER: Yes, I remember that. 

6 The acute intakes were large.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: So then there's a 

8 general question though, Scott, of how --

9 under what conditions in a case would we 

10 consider that maybe a chronic isn't the 

11 appropriate one for this person and we should 

12 look maybe at something else. Are there any 

13 conditions when we would do that? I guess is 

14 that where we're going with this?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, in this 

16 case, the chronic wasn't necessarily bounding 

17 of the acute, right? But you're saying that 

18 since the acute was larger than any intake 

19 ever reported at Savannah or one of the 

20 highest --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- that it was 
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1 really unlikely that this person, you know, 

2 could've received --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that was 

4 essentially what this argument was.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So it was 

6 implausible basically, I think, is the 

7 argument.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So it's a 

10 little different than your usual argument 

11 which is it's chronic --

12 MR. FARVER: How do you know it 

13 wasn't something in between?

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes?

15 MR. HINNEFELD: See and this case 

16 is a little bit different because it was a 

17 long period of time between bioassays. Very 

18 few bioassays --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's right, 

20 that's right --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: -- over the career 

22 in a long period of time.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: But that was sort 

3 what was different about this than what we 

4 normally see.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. But I'd 

6 just ask if you could follow up on the last 

7 transcript. I mean it should be easy to find 

8 if you search by finding number.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Search by the --

10 yes.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. It should 

12 be fairly easy to find and just see what we 

13 had specifically asked for because I know we 

14 had the same discussion we're having now. But 

15 obviously there was some --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- request for 

18 a little follow-up.

19 MR. FARVER: Yes, it might have 

20 come down to where the acute is so large it's 

21 implausible.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 
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1 think they were saying, yes.

2 MR. FARVER: In my view, there's 

3 not some combination between the two.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, right.

5 MR. FARVER: That's more accurate 

6 and --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. SIEBERT: I don't know. I think 

9 that still goes back to the response that we 

10 gave back in April that is the discussion in 

11 OTIB-00060, the Internal Dose Reconstruction, 

12 that there's really no -- I believe it goes 

13 back to there's no driver for us to pick and 

14 choose like 14,000 different types of intake 

15 scenarios. It goes into, you know, there were 

16 two urine samples. They were slightly 

17 increasing over time and there's no indication 

18 of this large of an intake -- an acute intake. 

19 So by the thought process that's in Procedure 

20 60, there's nothing to drive us to anything 

21 other than chronic.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Well, I 
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1 guess the question though it will be 

2 underpinning procedure 60, then. Should there 

3 be something in situations like this? Some 

4 sort of comment? Is that where we're going 

5 with that? I don't know.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't know. 

7 I'm not sure.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: This is -- I mean 

9 realistically we may come up with some words, 

10 but there's nothing -- there's not going to be 

11 any slam-dunk sort of thing that's going to 

12 clear this up. It's a fact that we expect 

13 people who work at these facilities to have 

14 some level of chronic exposure. I mean that's 

15 pretty much what we assume in almost all our 

16 dose reconstructions --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: -- unless the 

19 person was clearly in an area, a non20 radiological area, is going to get even then 

21 chronic environmental. So we expect there to 

22 be some sort of chronic exposure for these 
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1 things.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: And in the absence 

4 of some indication that there was an acute --

5 you know, a reason to do acute -- that's 

6 generally what we do, is there's chronic, and 

7 I can understand --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Except for the 

9 mixture of the --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: -- all the special 

11 aspects of this case -- the special aspects of 

12 this case.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: So I don't know 

15 that we're going to get anything really 

16 there's not going to be a slam-dunk or 

17 something, but we might have to cogitate. We 

18 might be able to do something --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Well, I 

20 don't want to waste a lot of your resources on 

21 it either. If you -- all I'd ask is that you 

22 look back at the last transcript.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And if it's the 

3 same response, Scott, you can just say, you 

4 know, we refer back to our previous response 

5 and we think it's, you know, this is how it 

6 is. This is our final answer.

7 MS. BEHLING: This is Kathy 

8 Behling. It was my recollection that we were 

9 going to try and strengthen the OTIB-0060 at 

10 some point in time with regard to this issue. 

11 But again, I guess looking at the transcript 

12 would answer it.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and 

14 strengthen with regard to, sort of the --

15 MS. BEHLING: The issue of chronic 

16 versus acute and look at better guidance maybe 

17 for the dose reconstructor.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right, 

19 right. Yes.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Ultimately, it's 

21 still going to come down to the kind of work 

22 and the circumstances.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's going to 

2 be some judgment, professional judgment.

3 MEMBER MUNN: There will be 

4 judgment calls.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I mean there 

7 undoubtedly will be. But I mean you could --

8 you can identify the category of claims where 

9 you have to. If you're going to think about 

10 identifying the category, you would have to 

11 think about it because that would be the ones 

12 where you have really wide, you know, long 

13 periods of time between bioassay samples. 

14 Because if you have quite a number of bioassay 

15 samples, at that point the chronic will bound 

16 the series of acutes because each acute has to 

17 get progressively somewhat smaller in order to 

18 hit the next bioassay sample.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: So the chronic 

21 will bound the acutes if you have a long 

22 stream of bioassay data. But in this case 
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1 where you have a long period of time with no 

2 bioassay --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: -- that would be 

5 the kind of case that you would look for, and 

6 I don't know if we can write anything or not, 

7 to be honest. We'll see. We'll go back and 

8 see what the transcript says.

9 DR. MAURO: Mark, this is John. 

10 In listening to this, is this a matter where 

11 there's agreement that in this particular case 

12 that this issue may be moot because the acute 

13 that would have to take place to give the 

14 result is just implausible? Is it possible to 

15 close this issue, and, however, again and to 

16 boot this to Wanda and transfer it over to 

17 Procedure? So it sounds like more concern 

18 that there could be better clarification in, I 

19 guess it's OTIB-0060.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: OTIB-0060 yes.

21 DR. MAURO: Yes, as opposed to --

22 unless, as long as there is agreement around 
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1 the table that in this particular application 

2 the approach is appropriate because the acute 

3 approach would have been implausible. I'm 

4 just looking for ways to get things closed on 

5 this one.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I know. I 

7 agree. But I just think we asked for a 

8 response at the last meeting. It seemed to 

9 make sense last meeting. I don't have the 

10 transcript in front of me.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll work on it.

12 DR. MAURO: Okay.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It's just a matter 

14 of -- being able to focus on --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I mean 

16 the other and I have to look back at the -- I 

17 think Scott said in October there was a risk. 

18 Or maybe it was earlier than that.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well he said the 

20 original was in November of '08 and then there 

21 was some more.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: November of 
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1 '08, yes. 

2 MR. HINNEFELD: What was the 

3 second date you gave us there, Scott?

4 MR. SIEBERT: The discussion about 

5 OTIB-0060 was in April of this year. The 

6 final item --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. The 

8 question of -- it was characterized as 

9 implausible. I remember that discussion, but 

10 it's -- you know, it's implausible. I think 

11 the basis was that because there weren't many 

12 other recorded incidents of this magnitude at 

13 the site and --

14 MR. ULSH: Well, I mean --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's sort of a 

16 little backwards defense, like, oh, you know. 

17 I mean --

18 MR. ULSH: Well, Scott was it 

19 higher than the high five?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Higher than the 

21 high five.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Higher than the 
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1 high five.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Wherever 

3 recorded. Right.

4 MR. ULSH: So I have as an action 

5 item to look back over the last transcripts 

6 and make sure --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. ULSH: -- that folks agreed 

9 there --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Particularly for 

12 April '09 and probably our last meeting, too, 

13 which was --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, the last 

15 September 3rd meeting I know we tasked you 

16 with doing some follow-up.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And if you come 

19 back and say the discussion on the transcript 

20 was around OTIB-0060 then we can probably 

21 defer it to the Procedures Work Group.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it's 
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1 actually Procedure 60 rather than OTIB-0060.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean 

3 Procedure 60, yes. Okay.

4 MR. SIEBERT: No, it is actually 

5 OTIB-0060.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, it's OTIB7 0060. Okay. Thanks.

8 MR. SIEBERT: Sure. I can't 

9 imagine we get confused on those.

10 MR. ULSH: So we're talking about 

11 the transcripts in the meeting of this 

12 committee in April.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MR. ULSH: And also on September 

15 3rd.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. September 

17 3rd. Yes. And is that it on this? 

18 MR. FARVER: On what?

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: On down --

20 MR. FARVER: 118.1

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, 118.1. 

22 Then I have no further action for this case.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Just a remaining 

2 question regarding when the linearity of 

3 responses.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

5 MEMBER MUNN: But it doesn't --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Doug, do you 

7 have any note on this, on 118.1?

8 MR. FARVER: I thought it was 

9 closed.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So no further 

11 action for this case. But then there's one 

12 part I seem to leave open.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I thought we 

14 provided some additional comment on that.

15 MR. FARVER: I thought you did, 

16 too.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I have -- my note 

18 is 118.1 is closed. 

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Closed.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That's my note 

21 from the last meeting.

22 MR. FARVER: I thought you 
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1 provided --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Because I thought 

3 we provided sort of a fairly extensive 

4 description of that badge. It's linear badge 

5 in the range that the dose was and I thought 

6 we provided sort of a fuller description.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. That's 

8 fine because I do say no further action on 

9 this case. So that usually means closed. So 

10 it's closed. And that's it. That's it. We 

11 finished the sixth survey. So we just have 

12 that one thing to follow up on, 107.4.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 118.1 was 

15 closed and 104.7 was transferred to TBD-6000. 

16 Alright.

17 Now we can look at the seventh set 

18 of cases, and it's titled the same thing with 

19 seventh set, 28 case matrix September 3, 2009. 

20 Does everybody have the document?

21 And the first one seems to be 

22 highlighted, 121.1.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes, that's Anaconda, 

2 an AWE case, I believe.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

4 DR. MAURO: Yes. Maybe I should -

5 MR. SIEBERT: Aliquippa Forge 

6 actually.

7 DR. MAURO: Let me see, what do I 

8 have here. Give me a second and I'll open up 

9 my -- I have the actual big fat book in front 

10 of me. I'm sorry. Not Anaconda. Aliquippa. 

11 You're right. My mistake.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Aliquippa 

13 Forge, yes.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes, Aliquippa Forge, 

15 and let me see if I could just help out a 

16 little bit regarding the issue. I'm looking 

17 at my -- this is -- this is C.1.1 and I think 

18 I'm familiar with this one. Hold on.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's 

20 supposed to be NIOSH will evaluate the use of 

21 TBD -- or TIB-0070 and I think it's TBD-6000 -

22 DR. MAURO: Yes, yes. The problem 
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1 was using data from I guess the FUSRAP time 

2 period in the late '70s, 1978 as a basis for 

3 reconstructing doses, in this case, external 

4 doses to a worker that worked at this 

5 Aliquippa Forge between 1950 to '64. And I 

6 think you're right. The discussion was had --

7 the way we looked at it -- had OTIB, I guess 

8 it's 70, been available I think the strategy 

9 would have been used. And the way we left 

10 things according to the yellow marker -- yes, 

11 it's all here nice and clear now -- we're 

12 coming back -- I think NIOSH was going to look 

13 into whether or not it would have been more 

14 appropriate to use the OTIB-0070 approach or 

15 TBD-6000. The approach used here --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Or at least --

17 this approach was before those were available.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes, that's correct.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: At least I 

20 think we were concerned that the approach used 

21 was consistent with or, you know, more 

22 claimant favorable than --
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1 DR. MAURO: Well, this one clearly 

2 is not because using the data for 1978. This 

3 was our concern. The data for 1978 to apply 

4 to -- I think this is all residual period now.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: We're going to -- we 

7 have a worker here that worked at Aliquippa 

8 Forge during the residual period, and the way 

9 to estimate his external exposure from 

10 residual radioactivity which occurred between 

11 apparently in the '50s and '60s was to use 

12 data from the FUSRAP program which was in 

13 1978, and we were concerned with that.

14 I think that basically captures 

15 this issue, and I'm not quite sure whether --

16 and, you know, it clears that if you were to 

17 use a OTIB-0070 type approach, you would come 

18 up with something higher. Because the way 

19 OTIB-0070 would work is you would look at what 

20 kind of residual activity were on surfaces at 

21 the end of the operations period and then use 

22 that as your starting point and then you'd 
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1 look at what your FUSRAP data is, let's say, 

2 at your ending point, and you'd get a slope. 

3 So therefore you would get a higher exposure 

4 if you tried to apply the OTIB-0070 philosophy 

5 here.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I don't have 

7 anything to provide today. I was --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I was going to 

9 say it's a NIOSH action, John. So we kind of 

10 have your position here.

11 DR. MAURO: I just wanted to make 

12 sure everybody understood what it was.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Thank 

14 you.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: There were I think 

16 a couple findings. I don't know if this is 

17 one or not that related to residual and I know 

18 I started working on one related to the 

19 residual of AWE, and I don't know if it was 

20 this one or not, but I think that -- John, do 

21 you recall? Is this the one where we didn't 

22 have any 1950 measurements, or did we have 
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1 1950 measurements about public contamination?

2 DR. MAURO: I'd have to check. I 

3 don't recall. It's not apparent right now 

4 from what I'm looking at whether you have some 

5 data there or not. Or you could have gone to 

6 TBD-6000.

7 See. Right now, we have two 

8 protocols that have been developed subsequent 

9 to this dose this particular audit. One is 

10 TBD-6000 and we have OTIB-0070 both of which 

11 deal with AWE type exposures and provide a 

12 vehicle for doing dose reconstruction which 

13 SC&A has found favorable on and then we run 

14 across a case like this which predates all 

15 that where it seems -- I don't know whether or 

16 not this would affect a reversal. I doubt it. 

17 We're talking a residual period. Probably I 

18 would have to look at the actual numbers. The 

19 doses are probably pretty small anyway. Yes, 

20 his PoC is 12 percent. So what I'm getting at 

21 is with discussing an issue that's more of a 

22 scientific matter, what do we do when we run 
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1 across a case that's pretty old? It predates 

2 lots more good work that was done subsequent 

3 to it such as OTIB-0070 and TBD-6000. 

4 Clearly, the dose would go up in my mind if 

5 you were to apply this new philosophy and 

6 approach.

7 But certainly, and this is a 

8 judgment call, we're at a dose of 3 rem with a 

9 PoC of 12. I can't imagine that going to the 

10 new protocol would really have a large effect 

11 on this. But you know we never really had 

12 this conversation before.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: What do we do when we 

15 run into a circumstance like that? Because 

16 we're going to see more and more of these 

17 kinds of situations arise.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I mean I 

19 guess the issue here though is it's Aliquippa 

20 Forge, is that the -- Aliquippa Forge. It's 

21 likely the only case we're going to review for 

22 Aliquippa Forge.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So the question 

3 here for me is if there were many, you know, 

4 several cases done prior to these procedures 

5 in place you're not only looking at this plan. 

6 You're looking at --

7 DR. MAURO: You're looking at PER.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then you 

9 would say it probably doesn't have a big 

10 impact on this PoC. However, NIOSH may want 

11 to check other cases done in this type --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: The action here is 

13 pretty clear. It's just that we can get 

14 somebody free to do it and that is to evaluate 

15 the residual method here versus an approved 

16 method from either TBD-6000 or OTIB-0070 and 

17 determine if this is in fact lower then this 

18 site profile should be modified to adopt one 

19 of the currently reviewed and approved 

20 methods. And then once you do that you 

21 evaluate all the cases.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, as needed.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: And decide whether 

2 it affects them or not. It may not. The 

3 residual period it may not affect, but you've 

4 got to look at them all.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

6 DR. MAURO: In a way this almost 

7 falls into the world of PERs.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, it may or 

9 may not.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: It would trigger 

11 one theoretically. I mean it would trigger 

12 the PER. Now it could be that no cases will 

13 be reworked as a result of that PER because 

14 what we do. But they will all be reevaluated.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. My point 

16 is that that's SC&A's position on this. I'm 

17 not sure NIOSH ever said we agree, this would 

18 have under estimated the --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, that's just 

20 it. We have to run through it.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: And what answer do 
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1 we get -- what answer would we get with these 

2 other techniques?

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: So we have to do 

5 that first. If Aliquippa Forge is higher, 

6 frankly we wouldn't change anything --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

8 DR. MAURO: There is a second 

9 issue associated with this. I guess that's 

10 the next item. 

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The next item 

12 probably, yes.

13 DR. MAURO: I'm jumping ahead. I 

14 have it in front of me.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I just left 

16 this as a remaining action then, and we can go 

17 on to 121.2.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Go ahead, John.

20 DR. MAURO: Yes. That has simply 

21 to do with when do you use the median. In 

22 other words think of it like this. What we 
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1 have at a site where we have data during the 

2 FUSRAP time period and you know trying to 

3 reconstruct this person's dose based on his 

4 job category do you use the median or do you 

5 use some higher end value?

6 I believe this guy had a job 

7 category which -- he was a furnace operator 

8 which puts him in a place where he has a 

9 potential for much higher exposures. As we 

10 all know, furnace operators at AWE facilities 

11 is probably as bad a spot as you can get in 

12 terms of being exposed to residue. The 

13 question becomes --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

15 DR. MAURO: Now bear in mind that 

16 he's a furnace operator, but he wasn't working 

17 with uranium. You know, it was post -- so he 

18 was working with metal, but he's still in an 

19 area where if there's going to be residual 

20 uranium around, this is the place where you're 

21 going to find it.

22 And we raised the question whether 
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1 automatically applying the median dose to a 

2 person like this for the residual period is 

3 appropriate. These are one of these case-by4 case things that we have been discussing in 

5 the past in other venues, and I believe the 

6 general philosophy that's emerging from other 

7 discussions and other venues is that not to 

8 just automatically apply the full distribution 

9 or the median whether it's external or 

10 internal. But let's take a look at the case 

11 and on a case-by-case basis based on the best 

12 information we have, you know, if it's clear 

13 that there was low potential for exposure, 

14 using the full distribution would certainly be 

15 reasonable. But if there's a reason to 

16 believe that a person might have been at a job 

17 where he experienced the higher end, it would 

18 not be appropriate. So this second issue has 

19 to do with what do you -- this is probably the 

20 person that should have been assigned a 90 for 

21 percentile for example.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Got it. Yes. 
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1 I think we know the issue. I don't know --

2 DR. MAURO: Now coupling this with 

3 the first item is an interesting -- I guess I 

4 haven't given too much thought to what do you 

5 do when you marry this issue specific to this 

6 worker to the issue of OTIB-0070 and TBD-6000. 

7 But I do think they do converge. So they have 

8 to be looked at together.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, yes, John. 

10 They would -- as part of the process that I 

11 would see here is that we would make all the 

12 changes necessary to the site profile, you 

13 know, to align to address these technical 

14 concerns.

15 DR. MAURO: Yes.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: And once those 

17 changes are made is when you would look at 

18 each of the claims. So at the point where you 

19 have a claim that is going to get a 95th 

20 percent or maybe we feel like we don't always 

21 know enough about where people work. Give 

22 everybody a 95th percent or whatever we knew, 
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1 that would be part of that reevaluation of the 

2 claim.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: So the logical way 

5 to do this or at least the manageable way to 

6 do this is to make all the changes warranted 

7 to the site profile and then reevaluate the 

8 claims that were done with the old site 

9 profile once all the changes have been made. 

10 I mean that's just a logical way to do it or 

11 the manageable way to do it.

12 DR. MAURO: For this worker if you 

13 were to shift into the mode of using TBD-6000 

14 and/or OTIB-0070, the machinery exists. In 

15 other words, you have all of the data and the 

16 protocols to take this person and apply the 

17 protocols because the protocols written up in 

18 TBD-6000 and in OTIB-0070 provide for taking 

19 into consideration job category and when do 

20 you assume, you know, where -- because the 

21 lookup tables break it down by different job 

22 categories.
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1 So I think that in this case this 

2 is not an issue that requires any 

3 reconsideration of either TBD-6000 or OTIB4 0070. What this case requires is what happens 

5 if you revisit this case within the context of 

6 those two guidelines and how much would his 

7 dose change. I think that's really what the 

8 issue emerges from this.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And are there 

10 other -- yes, I think we got it.

11 DR. MAURO: You got it. Okay.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. 121.3 I 

13 think is similar. It's not a TBD-6000 issue 

14 as much, but I think it's the same question of 

15 was the approach used, you know, bounding for 

16 this case and it --

17 MEMBER MUNN: Inhalation.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's 

19 inhalation ingestion.

20 DR. MAURO: Hold on. Let me just 

21 get there. 121.3.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. ULSH: While John is looking, 

2 Mark, on 121.2 the status is that's a 

3 remaining NIOSH action item.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. ULSH: Thanks.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm assuming 

7 unless -- that's true. Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes, this is the same 

9 issue again using data from 1992 to go back 

10 and calculate inhalation. We're looking at 

11 121.F3. Yes, I got it. Same problem as 

12 before, just like the external, this is for 

13 internal, you know.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

15 DR. MAURO: You're right. It's 

16 the same type of issue.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think this 

18 one may be more. It's not so much TBD-6000 

19 specific because there is site data, I think, 

20 that they were working with. Right? So it's 

21 this question of back extrapolating data.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes. What I'm reading 
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1 here is the intakes that were used for this 

2 person for both inhalation and ingestion were 

3 derived from residual contamination collected 

4 in 1992 and 1993.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

6 DR. MAURO: And the person, of 

7 course, worked there from 1950 to 1978. So 

8 there's the issue. You know, how do you deal 

9 with that? And by the way that's the purpose 

10 of OTIB-0070 to deal with just this situation.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's right. 

12 So that's why in the Resolution column you'll 

13 see Reconsider OTIB-0070 there, not TBD-6000.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes. That's another 

15 place you can go because TBD-6000 also 

16 addresses exposures during residual period. 

17 But 0070 gives even more guidance.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I thought 

19 this one was more relevant to TIB-0070.

20 DR. MAURO: And I agree with that.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anyway, the 

22 three are similar.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes, they're very much 

2 related.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think, 

4 unless I hear from Scott, I'll assume NIOSH 

5 doesn't have any response yet.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, this, we 

7 don't have a response yet. I believe this is 

8 in fact a NIOSH site profile. I'm not sure 

9 that ORAU --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: -- participated in 

12 its preparation.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. So 

14 that remains a NIOSH action as well.

15 I think I'm down to 122.1. 122.1, 

16 John?

17 DR. MAURO: That's Simonds Saw. 

18 Yes.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Simonds Saw.

20 DR. MAURO: Yes. Give me one 

21 second and I'm flipping through it to get 

22 oriented. 122.1. Give me a second.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Validating this 

2 approach for the job in question. It seems 

3 like a job specific thing, too.

4 DR. MAURO: Yes. Yes, it was a --

5 let's see what this guy's job was. Furnace 

6 operator, same thing. What we have here, now 

7 we're dealing with a fellow that was a furnace 

8 operator, and basically they used the data 

9 that was -- oh, this is Simonds Saw and what 

10 was done. This is an interesting problem. 

11 What was done is for external exposure is 

12 there was film badge. There were 20 film 

13 badge hanging in the room, and they've got 

14 data on the external field based on that film 

15 badges that were there and given that -- the 

16 standard approach in Simonds Saw is site 

17 profile -- they have a site profile -- was to 

18 take advantage of that data for determined 

19 external exposure from submersion in airborne 

20 activity and from surface contamination. And 

21 you would take the full distribution or the 

22 median.
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1 But again, our concern was this 

2 guy, again -- he's a furnace operator. You 

3 know, if there's a place where you think a guy 

4 might get the high end, that's the place he'd 

5 get it, well, one of the places. So that's 

6 the issue here.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We got you.

8 DR. MAURO: Okay.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The same thing, 

10 a similar thing, is for 122.3. It's similar. 

11 You know, does the approach proposed bound it 

12 for this particular type of job?

13 DR. MAURO: Well, yes. This is --

14 yes, it's a good thing to -- it's actually a 

15 visual thing. 

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: The way they handled 

18 external -- the first one we just talked about 

19 is the external exposure because he's 

20 surrounded, you know, he's immersed in this 

21 cloud of airborne activity and surface 

22 contamination.
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1 The second issue which I believe 

2 is 122.3 --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

4 DR. MAURO: -- is the fact that 

5 the generic approach used in Simonds Saw is in 

6 one respect extremely conservative. They're 

7 placing everybody up close and personal to 

8 spend half his time close to a billet and half 

9 his time close to a rod, a billet being the 

10 thing that goes into the furnace and the rod 

11 being the thing that comes out of the -- the 

12 rod being the thing that comes out after you 

13 roll it.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

15 DR. MAURO: Okay. This guy worked 

16 in the furnace. He only worked with billets. 

17 It turns out that if you're only working with 

18 billets, your potential for exposure is 

19 greater than it is when you're working with 

20 billets and rods.

21 So the generic approach that's 

22 adopted in Simonds Saw is very good. They're 
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1 saying we're going to assume that every worker 

2 that works at Simonds Saw is going to spend 

3 half his time one foot away from the billet 

4 and the other half of his time one foot away 

5 from a rod, and what happens is -- and that's 

6 great. So you really can't be much more 

7 conservative than that for external exposure.

8 But in this guy's case he's a 

9 furnace operator. The only thing he works 

10 with is billets in theory because he's loading 

11 the billets up to heat them up so that they 

12 can be rolled. So he has the potential to be 

13 up close and personal to only billets and 

14 perhaps more than one billet.

15 So the generic approach in Simonds 

16 Saw certainly in this respect is very good 

17 except as applied to this guy, and that's our 

18 concern.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And NIOSH was 

20 going to reexamine that, and I think I was --

21 I was just about to cut you off, John, again, 

22 because it was sort of déjà vu, but then I 
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1 thought, well, Brant is taking, stepping into 

2 this role. So it's probably good what you're 

3 doing, John. I think it's good to go over 

4 these and refresh our memories on them anyway.

5 DR. MAURO: I have to say. When 

6 we have these meetings --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: -- I have to go back 

9 and get the picture in my head again of what 

10 happened.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I agree.

12 DR. MAURO: And I realize it sort 

13 of brings back, but we haven't talked about it 

14 in six months. So I got to do this.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, for me as 

16 soon as I saw billet/rod 50/50 split, I knew 

17 exactly.

18 DR. MAURO: You knew where we 

19 were. Right.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's good to go 

21 over these because Brant is going to step into 

22 this role now.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes. Okay.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

3 MEMBER MUNN: John, do we have any 

4 feel at all for how great the difference in 

5 exposure?

6 DR. MAURO: It was small. It was 

7 about 40 percent, I think. The difference is 

8 less than a factor of two difference.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Okay.

10 DR. MAURO: So it wasn't a big 

11 difference, but you know factors of two that's 

12 sort of the place where I start to get 

13 concerned. Now for this guy let's see where 

14 he comes in. He comes in -- you see he comes 

15 in at 28.57 as his PoC. This particular issue 

16 is not going to flip it.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's unlikely.

18 MEMBER MUNN: No.

19 DR. MAURO: Yes, it's not going to 

20 flip it.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

22 MEMBER MUNN: And there's a 
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1 question of reasonableness with respect to the 

2 fact that the original assumption is extremely 

3 claimant favorable, the one foot for eight 

4 hours --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 

6 think we're asking NIOSH to defend that 

7 because I think you can defend it.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I would say 

10 that you probably can.

11 MEMBER MUNN: It sounds 

12 defensible.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll do what we 

15 can on that. My take on this is that that 

16 number by putting a person one foot away from 

17 these two sources for the entire work day --

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Two thousand 

19 hours a year.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: It's so high 

21 anyway that perhaps a different model not so 

22 aggressive there where you would give a 95th 
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1 percentile to the furnace operator might be 

2 the appropriate approach.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We just ask 

4 that this be documented and provided.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

6 DR. MAURO: We had this 

7 conversation last time.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

9 DR. MAURO: Again, it's a 

10 philosophy. You know, you adopt a generic 

11 approach which universally everyone would 

12 agree 2,000 hours per year, one foot away from 

13 these billets and rods is certainly a generic 

14 conservative approach. And what we talked 

15 about last time was well, maybe that's good 

16 enough even though we can make an argument 

17 that this worker probably did something a 

18 little different.

19 But the very fact that this 

20 fundamental approach and this is, again, a 

21 philosophical issue, you're not going to worry 

22 about it. It covers all ills, so to speak, 
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1 because it's such a conservative strategy that 

2 notwithstanding individual differences such as 

3 this one, it really doesn't matter. And I 

4 think that that really went to the heart. I 

5 think it's an important question. It's almost 

6 like coming at the problem in this way. So 

7 maybe it can go away on that basis.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's funny that 

9 you just used that phrase covers all ills 

10 because I think I used that in the little 

11 White Paper I circulated but in a derogatory 

12 sense.

13 (Laughter.)

14 DR. MAURO: And I understand that.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

16 DR. MAURO: But it's an 

17 interesting problem.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I think 

19 this is why we asked for documentation. I 

20 think it's important to document that because 

21 it says that our subcommittee looked at this 

22 and we didn't just give it a short shrift. We 
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1 considered this.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: If you think for a 

3 minute about the change in distance from that 

4 one foot that you have --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: -- for the 2,000 

7 hours in order to go increase -- the total 

8 dose is going to be increased and if you have 

9 half of this and 50 percent of that, you want 

10 them to go -- I think we're about a factor of 

11 two apart if I'm not mistaken.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

13 DR. MAURO: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: So you're double 

15 this 100 percent of the time. So you're going 

16 to go to a -- that's about a -- you're going 

17 to go from 75 percent to 100 percent. So it's 

18 about a one-third increase in dose. I'm just 

19 talking off the top of my head.

20 DR. MAURO: Yes, it's small.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Thank about how 

22 much distance you have to add to go to get 
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1 your dose down by a third. That's not very 

2 far.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And I 

4 don't think we're -- I mean all we're asking 

5 that just a little piece written on that.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Something like 

7 that would say okay --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we've got 

9 it and we have a record of it, too.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Alright.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We did it with 

12 numbers.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We didn't just 

15 do it, oh, it seems conservative. We've got 

16 it documented. That's what I was looking for.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. That 

19 was 122.3, correct?

20 DR. MAURO: Yes.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And then 

22 122.7.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: That's SC&A's --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is 

3 thorium. Yes, SC&A's tasked with an action 

4 here.

5 DR. MAURO: Let's see.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think NIOSH 

7 provided the response.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: We provided the 

9 wording in blue in April, I think if I'm not 

10 mistaken.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. I think 

12 you're correct. Yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: I guess that's 

14 blue. I don't know if that's blue.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, SC&A, I'm 

16 not sure. John, this probably would be you.

17 DR. MAURO: Again I'm checking to 

18 see what we did here. Give me one minute. 

19 Okay. Oh, here it is. I'm looking at the 

20 main report again. It's the only way I can 

21 get this down is -- here we have a situation 

22 where thorium was also rolled at Simonds Saw. 
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1 But the thorium data that's available for 

2 reconstructing inhalation dose in thorium is 

3 for only one day. There were 36 days when 

4 thorium was rolled, and they have data for one 

5 day.

6 And the data that they have is --

7 they used, I believe, the geometric mean of 

8 the data. I don't know how many air sampling 

9 data. I don't have that much precision here. 

10 But it seems to me what you've got here is a 

11 situation where here you've got a guy, you 

12 want to reconstruct his thorium inhalation 

13 exposures. We know that there were 36 days 

14 worth of exposures, but only one day's worth 

15 of data, and I believe they use the geometric 

16 mean of that one day exposure of data to apply 

17 to the full time period he was exposed.

18 And as a result our argument was, 

19 well, maybe in a case like this you'd be 

20 better off going with the upper 95th for 

21 percentile of the data because it's so limited 

22 and even then it's of course in question. But 
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1 you know what do you do when you're in a 

2 situation where you really have very limited 

3 data and you're trying to stretch it and apply 

4 it to 36 days worth of exposure.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and it's 

6 not -- I guess --

7 DR. MAURO: It's almost like 

8 taking such limited data. Now I believe they 

9 only assumed he was exposed for 36 days and 

10 used that one day of data to do that. And 

11 that was our concern.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let me ask, 

13 well, both SC&A and NIOSH. NIOSH, in this 

14 response did you provide us or SC&A with the 

15 data in question and the actual model or is it 

16 just this -- because I see there's -- obvious 

17 questions jumped out at me. This is similar 

18 to Bethlehem Steel except it's thorium not 

19 uranium. But there's breathing zone and 

20 general air. I wonder if you used all the 

21 data, if you used only breathing zone, you 

22 know. I don't know.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know.

2 DR. MAURO: The blue, you know, 

3 there's a lot of information in the blue 

4 write-up.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. That's 

6 what I was reading.

7 DR. MAURO: Yes, I'm reading that 

8 again. You know, if you give me just one 

9 second, let me just take a quick read of the 

10 blue again because in effect the blue was the 

11 case that was made. So listen, it's okay in 

12 spite of the fact that we raised this concern. 

13 The argument is made that the one day's worth 

14 of data is pretty good stuff. Give me a 

15 minute here.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not sure 

17 there's enough in the blue, but go ahead and 

18 read it, John.

19 DR. MAURO: Alright. It will take 

20 me just a few minutes. I'm in it.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean I have 

22 questions. While John is reading, I would 
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1 have questions about can we get the actual 

2 data and see the model that was used and, 

3 secondly, when was the sampling done or it 

4 says -- I think it does say when the sampling 

5 was done.

6 MEMBER CLAWSON: It does.

7 DR. MAURO: Okay.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Was it like the 

9 first day of thorium or was it in the middle 

10 or was it, you know, subsequent to the other 

11 rollings, I guess, would be my question.

12 MEMBER CLAWSON: Does it say how 

13 much -- this is Brad. Does it say how much 

14 data they -- or was it just bits and pieces?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's one day of 

16 sampling.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: One day of 

18 sampling by HASL.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How many 

20 samples.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: What HASL would do 

22 on these surveys, you see them a number of 
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1 places. They would come, and they would try 

2 to assess the exposure of worker by job title 

3 or workers by job titles. If you say you have 

4 machinists, they've got some samples and they 

5 won't sample every machinist. But they'll 

6 take some they think are representative. 

7 They'll take some breathing zones, and they'll 

8 also take what they -- are general area 

9 samples.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But also 

11 sometimes they'll take like what they call 

12 process.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Sometime they will 

14 take process.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Which are 

16 really elevated compared to.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I just 

19 wanted to look --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: And the way HASL 

21 would do this -- I don't know that this is the 

22 way we did it -- HASL derived a time-weighted 
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1 average by also doing time motion studies of 

2 machinists. How long was a machinist actually 

3 at the machining point when the breathing zone 

4 sample would be representative and then for 

5 the rest of his work day he was given the 

6 general area sample? So I don't know if they 

7 give the average or if they had a sample or --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess that's 

9 why I asked for the background.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: So I don't know if 

11 there's a lot to how they did the model, but 

12 it would appear to be one sampling -- complete 

13 study of that --

14 DR. MAURO: Yes.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: It would be a 

16 complete study of the site and it would 

17 probably take most of the day.

18 DR. MAURO: This is John. Let me 

19 say something. I think the ball was in our 

20 court, and we did not act on it.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It was. Yes. 

22 It was your action, yes.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes, it was our 

2 action. You know, the argument was made in 

3 blue that, now wait a minute. This was not 

4 some simple study. They did a very thorough 

5 study of the breathing zone, a daily weighted 

6 average and that one day's worth of data. 

7 That was just one day. It was a very thorough 

8 investigation that can be used to represent 

9 all 36 days, and the action item as I'm 

10 looking at it was that we were supposed to 

11 look at that. I have to say we didn't do 

12 that.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess -- yes.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine.

16 DR. MAURO: And if we could write 

17 that down. This is something that we 

18 certainly could look at and probably very 

19 quickly get back, maybe write a quick White 

20 Paper. If, Doug, you could just record as an 

21 action item for us I believe --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm recording 
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1 them all. Yes.

2 DR. MAURO: We didn't do it. I 

3 apologize. If I had the presence of mind 

4 because this is something we can usually do 

5 pretty quickly.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: If you have any 

7 trouble finding that study in SRDB let me 

8 know.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 

10 was going to ask.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I'll find somebody 

12 who has it.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can you post it 

14 in our usual --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we could post 

16 it. Do you want a folder?

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Restart the 

18 other process, you know, we can --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean we 

20 can post it in a folder for the -- seventh 

21 set.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: We can put the 

2 folders on. We could put a --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Why don't we 

4 start --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: -- Dose 

6 Reconstruction Subcommittee folder under -- so 

7 you'll see it. It will be one of the folders 

8 that appears under --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Why don't we 

10 start doing that? I update the matrices. 

11 I'll give them to you and you can post them as 

12 well.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And then for lack 

14 of a better place right now we'll put this in, 

15 like, a seventh set subfolder.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: So that rather 

18 than lump them altogether because that folder 

19 will get --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So what I asked 

21 for was SC&A's action to review it. But what 

22 I would ask for is the study, the HASL study 
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1 itself, the document, be posted there and also 

2 the NIOSH model, your analysis of the data. 

3 Because I would expect that you might have 

4 excluded some data when you did the 

5 distribution or whatever for good reasons 

6 probably. But I just want to see the data, 

7 how much did they do the time motions, you 

8 know, whatever.

9 MEMBER CLAWSON: Well, I think --

10 this is Brad. I think you also brought up 

11 another point we need to take a look at, and 

12 that's that this was done at the very 

13 beginning or midway through or whatever. I 

14 think that --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I 

16 think we may be able to figure that out based 

17 on the HASL report.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: And I'm not sure 

19 what other measurements we have. There's a 

20 parenthetical statement here saying based on 

21 subsequent measurements which would mean later 

22 probably. It could mean earlier, but it 
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1 probably means later in this case. And so I 

2 don't know what that means.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: Simonds Saw is an 

5 interesting site because it was so fundamental 

6 to the Bethlehem Steel work.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

8 DR. MAURO: We did do a lot of --

9 there was a lot of work done on Simonds Saw 

10 and reviewing its data.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: For the uranium 

12 site anyway.

13 DR. MAURO: Oh, yes, the uranium 

14 site, and it was done because of Bethlehem 

15 Steel.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: If you remember. So I 

18 mean I think there's a lot of history here, 

19 and we would do well to go back and look at 

20 this case.

21 I have to say Simonds Saw, I don't 

22 know if there are a lot of cases there, but we 
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1 never reviewed that site profile.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I would 

3 think that this is kind of a mini site 

4 profile.

5 DR. MAURO: Oh no. It would be. 

6 There's no doubt.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: But this looks like --

9 I don't know how many cases there are at 

10 Simonds Saw, but we certainly will look at 

11 this one issue.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that's the 

13 other reason I'm asking for the drill down 

14 here is, you know, it's probably the one case 

15 we'll see from Simonds Saw.

16 DR. MAURO: Yes.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So that 

18 remains an SC&A action, and NIOSH will post 

19 those few documents. Right?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Well, I 

22 don't see any yellow. Here we go.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: 125.9.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 125.9. Thank 

3 you. You have to keep me on the ball. 125.9 

4 is the next open item. John, I think you're 

5 off the hook on this one.

6 DR. MAURO: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: That's great.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We're up to 

10 Doug.

11 DR. MAURO: Okay.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

13 MR. FARVER: 125.9, is that 

14 correct?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And it was 

16 actually left with NIOSH.

17 MR. FARVER: Just to recap, this 

18 person had some -- was involved in four 

19 incidents, and in the file there were --

20 recall slips of paper with the dates, 

21 description of the incident, and little notes 

22 saying bioassay requested. But those dates do 
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1 not match up to the bioassay data that was 

2 provided, and that is the basis for the 

3 findings.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean, we 

5 can provide some additional things back. As a 

6 general rule, you know a re-request to DOE for 

7 that incident bioassay data doesn't get us 

8 anything. But we can look into it. I'm just 

9 saying I don't even know what site this is 

10 from or what the --

11 MR. FARVER: Hanford. 

12 MR. SIEBERT: It's a Hanford 

13 claim.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, Hanford is 

15 usually pretty good about giving us what 

16 they've got.

17 MR. SIEBERT: Yes. I believe this 

18 is just a case where the dose reconstructor 

19 determined there was no additional data. I 

20 mean, I don't know where there was really much 

21 more that could be done. I mean, it could be 

22 re-requested, but if it doesn't exist -- just 
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1 because bioassay data was requested does not 

2 necessarily mean bioassay samples were 

3 collected.

4 MR. FARVER: So it was common for 

5 them to request it and not get the sample.

6 MR. SIEBERT: I'm not going to say 

7 that's common, but there -- the dose 

8 reconstructor was working under the assumption 

9 that they had all the available data. That's 

10 what I'll say.

11 MR. FARVER: I'm sure they were, 

12 but how do you know you had all the data? 

13 Right here we have an incident of three cases 

14 where they say they requested the data. It's 

15 not common that when they requested it that 

16 they don't get the bioassay sample. So I've 

17 got three missing results involved with 

18 incidents.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Do we have 

20 bioassay after those?

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That was the 

22 question I was thinking, too. Would the 
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1 chronic bound? I think it's in the top. If 

2 you look back at 128.08 assuming these things 

3 happened --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Even if the 

5 chronic doesn't bound, if you have incidents 

6 and you could assume some sort of intake of 

7 that incident, you know, you've got bioassay 

8 later.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: You could say, 

11 well, let's just say there was --

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let's assume 

13 there was an incident.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: -- a chronic --

15 acute intake on that.

16 (Simultaneous speakers.)

17 MR. HINNEFELD: What that will do: 

18 that then decreases the chronic that you give 

19 them. Because if you build a chronic exposure 

20 to fit the data, but then you start fitting an 

21 acute exposure in these places and you fit 

22 those data points, your chronic level then 
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1 drops. So you have a lower chronic in order 

2 to still fit the data points if you put those 

3 acutes in. So the chronics might still bound.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, that's 

5 the question. I think that's what we asked 

6 you to look at.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I don't 

8 think I've got -- or I haven't been provided 

9 anything on this.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If you came 

11 back and said we are not convinced that any 

12 incidents happened, but in the event that they 

13 did, we modeled it this way and we still found 

14 our approach to be bounding of this whatever.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I think 

17 that's what we were asking for: follow-up.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is that right, 

20 Doug? I mean I'm --

21 MR. FARVER: That I don't know if 

22 that's what we were asking.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It was 

2 initially, anyway, in 128.08. Part of it was, 

3 is the chronic bounding. I mean the other 

4 question, why wasn't this noticed in peer 

5 review. I mean that was a quality control 

6 kind of question.

7 MR. ULSH: 930.09 still indicates 

8 SC&A's concern about the issue that Doug 

9 described.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MR. ULSH: NIOSH will follow up on 

12 bioassay data associated with incidents.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MR. ULSH: So it sounds -- not 

15 coming in with any history here -- to me like 

16 the action item is for us to see if there's 

17 any bioassay data.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

19 MR. ULSH: But you just described 

20 and Stu just described perhaps a second or 

21 related action item to --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It might be. 
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1 Yes. It might be secondary.

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: If you can't find 

3 that data, then you're going to have to be 

4 able to address it somehow. That's what Stu 

5 came up with.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly. I 

7 think that's the question.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: You've got the 

9 data of the incident. So you could say, okay. 

10 They have acute exposure on that date.

11 MR. FARVER: I guess my concern 

12 is, if I were a dose reconstructor and I came 

13 across this where I had this information. It 

14 does not match my bioassay data. What do you 

15 do?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, again, I'll 

17 have to get a description for that because I 

18 don't know.

19 MR. FARVER: I mean if this comes 

20 up again where we -- it does come up 

21 occasionally where we see these little notes 

22 of bioassay requested.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MR. FARVER: They don't always 

3 match with the bioassay data. I would think 

4 that would raise a flag somewhere.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and it 

6 didn't get caught in peer review either. 

7 That's what is noted in the beginning was 

8 that.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I mean part 

10 of this would be that this might be broader 

11 than an incident sample, you know, an incident 

12 with a request for bioassay and bioassay data. 

13 I mean there may be other circumstances as 

14 well where there are certain inconsistencies 

15 in the file.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: So it's kind of a 

18 broad question. But we can address this 

19 specific one.

20 MR. FARVER: Well, I mean I would 

21 think that we could raise a flag and then what 

22 would you do when that flag is raised?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we'll have 

2 to find out. I don't know. Sitting here, I 

3 don't know.

4 MEMBER CLAWSON: I think that's 

5 what the whole question comes down to.

6 MR. FARVER: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

8 MEMBER CLAWSON: Correct me if I'm 

9 wrong, but I know that we just found a bunch 

10 of more data, Nevada Test Site. But didn't we 

11 come across some more Hanford, too? It sticks 

12 in my mind that they found -- I think I 

13 remember reading that they had just found some 

14 more data at Hanford and that's why --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh gosh. I don't 

16 know. They find -- Hanford's got tons.

17 MEMBER CLAWSON: I know, but 

18 Nevada Test Site has 250,000.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we found, 

20 yes, the databases. We've got those. Hanford 

21 has periodically found stuff. But I don't

22 know that -- I don't know if the bioassay data 
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1 was put in there either. I really don't know.

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: Well, I just 

3 wondered. I know it's come into the neutron 

4 and a bunch of other stuff like that. But 

5 this is one of the questions from people 

6 looking outside and this is kind of my idea of 

7 why we're doing some of these. Are we finding 

8 all the data that really is out there? And I 

9 know that it's an ongoing thing. We find it 

10 in a lot of different places.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, there are 

12 circumstances where we didn't, but yes. Or 

13 that we're not confident we did.

14 MEMBER CLAWSON: Well, I was just 

15 --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: This is 

17 Brookhaven.

18 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: We just concluded 

20 we're not confident we got all the exposure 

21 data for Brookhaven before like '79 or 

22 something.
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1 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: So I mean, there 

3 may be situations like that.

4 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right. I just 

5 remember seeing and I was just wondering if 

6 maybe bioassay was involved in that.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: To my knowledge 

8 except maybe -- well, to my knowledge, there 

9 hasn't been a discovery of bioassay data at 

10 Hanford, you know, during this data capture 

11 stuff that we're not getting in the exposure 

12 to my knowledge. Okay. I don't -- I'm not 

13 completely up-to-date on what's being 

14 discovered down there.

15 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Let's 

17 move on to 126.2. Doug, we're looking to 

18 close one. What can you do for us?

19 MR. FARVER: I think we should 

20 close this one. I did look at their findings.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I thought so. 

22 I had a good feeling about this one.
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1 MR. FARVER: Yes.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So maybe expand 

3 on that. You looked at the files.

4 MR. FARVER: Yes, they sent a 

5 plethora of files. A whole folder full of 

6 files and I looked at -- I won't say I looked 

7 at all -- I looked at most of them and it was 

8 -- I believe we were trying to show that it 

9 was bounding with some final questions.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MR. FARVER: What the basis was 

12 they used to OTIB-0002? The workbook 

13 associated with OTIB-0002? This is one you 

14 select uranium or non-uranium facilities by 

15 clicking on a button.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Click a button. 

17 Yes.

18 MR. FARVER: And we thought it 

19 should have been uranium. They clicked on 

20 uranium. Made a difference in dose of about 

21 8.5 rem and then from that discussion, we got 

22 a question of set boundaries.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The dose was 

2 just higher, the dose they used.

3 MR. FARVER: The dose they used 

4 was lower.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Lower.

6 MR. FARVER: For non-uranium.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Non-uranium, 

8 okay.

9 MR. FARVER: Uranium, it's higher. 

10 So they went back and did that and it's in 

11 their statement that it was an increase by 8.4 

12 rem. And then the question came up to, well, 

13 is that bounding? And that's when they sent 

14 the files showing that. That's gone. Closed. 

15 Finished.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anybody have 

17 any follow-up on that? We closed one. This 

18 is good.

19 MEMBER MUNN: This is very good.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

21 MEMBER MUNN: There's another one. 

22 127.8.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, we're not 

2 going to close two. Not in a row.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Well, maybe.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

5 MR. FARVER: I might ask Kathy for 

6 her input on this one. Kathy, have you looked 

7 at this?

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 127.8.

9 MS. BEHLING: Yes, I have. We're 

10 on 127.8?

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MS. BEHLING: Okay. This is this 

13 reoccurring issue on the fission products and 

14 the fact that NIOSH selects the highest --

15 when there is a whole body count done and 

16 there are no positives, NIOSH selects the 

17 highest fission activation product and this 

18 particular case it was cerium-144 or barium19 144. And although we agree that that's good 

20 that they've calculated a missed dose for it, 

21 those fission products, what about the other 

22 fission products that are listed on the whole 
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1 body counts that are listed. I guess for 

2 Hanford there's actually a table that they 

3 list the MDA levels for all those various 

4 fission products associated with whole body 

5 count, and I know that we've had many 

6 discussions on this issue and I thought that 

7 NIOSH was going to be looking at this issue 

8 and writing something.

9 Go ahead, Hans.

10 DR. BEHLING: Yes, this is Hans. 

11 I think we've gone through this issue many, 

12 many times and I think the consensus is the 

13 following. If we, for instance, had instead 

14 of a whole body count we had a gross beta or 

15 gross alpha urine sample, it would be very 

16 prudent and very claimant-favorable to assume 

17 that all beta activity or all alpha activity 

18 from a gross alpha or gross beta count when 

19 you don't know the mixture of radionuclides is 

20 to select that radionuclide and assign it the 

21 total activity for that urine sample and that 

22 selection process would be based on the 
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1 particular cancer in question.

2 So, for instance, if you had a 

3 thyroid cancer you would clearly assign all 

4 gross alpha or I mean gross beta to iodine-131 

5 and we agree with that. But when you have a 

6 whole body count and you have basically an MDA 

7 value for each and every single one of the 

8 fission products that a person may have in his 

9 body as well as activation products selecting 

10 the highest radionuclide that could 

11 potentially contribute to dose is only just 

12 one of many.

13 So therefore cesium-144: it should 

14 in essence be -- if cesium-144 was in fact 

15 available for inhalation for that individual 

16 based on his work environment, yes, half of 

17 the MDA should be assigned to cesium, but so 

18 should half of the cesium-137, half of the 

19 cobalt-60, half of iodine-131 and so on and so 

20 on.

21 So in essence, we are not 

22 necessarily being claimant-favorable by 
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1 selecting a single value of single isotope and 

2 assigning half of the MDA because we're 

3 missing all the other ones. And I thought we 

4 had resolved that issue with NIOSH on a number 

5 of occasions prior to this date.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: You thought that 

7 we had -- you said resolved it or brought it 

8 up?

9 DR. BEHLING: I think we brought 

10 it up and I think everyone acknowledged that 

11 that should have been the appropriate approach 

12 to assigning missed internal exposure when 

13 there is a whole body count and we know that -

14 - let's say a person worked in a production 

15 reactor at Hanford or Savannah River that you 

16 obviously always have a whole mixture of 

17 fission products as well as activation 

18 products that can usually be established based 

19 on smear samples or air sampling and we have 

20 a fair understanding of what the dose rate of 

21 the radionuclide mixes may be.

22 But we also know -- when I worked 
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1 at a utility, we always knew what the MDA 

2 levels were for each of the radionuclides that 

3 a person could have potentially been exposed 

4 to and there's a fixed value, and I think 

5 NIOSH acknowledges this. But this default 

6 value of only selecting the highest 

7 radionuclides and assigning half of the MDA is 

8 only part of the solution to assigning missed 

9 internal exposure from patient activation 

10 products.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Well, this 

12 is familiar to me. I don't recall we ever 

13 resolved it, but it is familiar to me.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Very familiar.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Scott, do you 

17 have a response to Hans?

18 MR. SIEBERT: Well, I believe we 

19 know that it's something that needs to be 

20 discussed about OTIB-0054 versus whole body 

21 counts. I mean I think we've all agreed that 

22 it does not make sense to assume that missed 
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1 dose is based on everything that a whole body 

2 could potentially see because that's unlikely 

3 and also, as a mixture, if you saw something 

4 at the MDA many things would be well above the 

5 MDA. So the thought process of using OTIB6 0054 along with whole body counts is something 

7 we've discussed.

8 I just don't believe that it's 

9 gotten to the point of us being able to use it 

10 because of the complexities involved of 

11 comparing. You assume it's on one whole body 

12 count: the MDA, and then you have to deal with 

13 this whole suite of other radionuclides that 

14 go along with it and then compare that with 

15 the MDA of that whole body count to see if it 

16 could be seen. There's a lot of complexity 

17 involved and I just don't know if that's gone 

18 anywhere at the moment.

19 DR. BEHLING: And let me just add 

20 something that's also very definitely a 

21 question of timing, too, as we very well know. 

22 A whole body count that's done on a routine 
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1 basis once a year or some interval is probably 

2 not going to capture necessarily all the 

3 radionuclides that you may be exposed to 

4 especially if you're dealing with short-lived 

5 radionuclides such as iodine. So we don't 

6 really have an understanding of what potential 

7 exposures could have occurred that are 

8 obviously not necessarily obvious in a whole 

9 body count even when such exposures exceed the 

10 MDA unless the timing is correct.

11 And I would still say that as a 

12 default approach one should look at the 

13 spectrum of radionuclides based on air 

14 sampling data or contamination surveys in a 

15 given facility and understanding a reactor 

16 does produce fission products and also 

17 activation products and the blind assumption 

18 or default assumption would be to assign half 

19 of MDA for a dose rate in radionuclides that 

20 are routinely observed in the environment of a 

21 worker where your air sampling data is 

22 available or spectral data is available.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we'll have 

2 to do some work to prepare for this 

3 discussion.

4 DR. MAURO: This is John. From a 

5 perspective -- this issue of first talking 

6 about bioassay data where you have, let's say, 

7 gross beta-gamma and then assigning the worst 

8 possible radionuclide, now you do have OTIB9 0054 which says that, no, you don't have to do 

10 that and there's a mix of radionuclides you 

11 can assume and we reviewed that where, if 

12 you're working at a different -- depending on 

13 the type of reactor -- this is reactors now --

14 you know that if you get a gross beta-gamma 

15 reading from a bioassay sample, a urine 

16 sample, right now you have a protocol that 

17 says we're going to assign this mix to that 

18 count in the urine.

19 So there is precedent for you not 

20 to use the worst-case scenario as we just 

21 discussed where you pick the worst 

22 radionuclide. But there's also precedent at 
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1 least when you know that they are working 

2 within a given kind of reactor facility that 

3 you would use an assumed mix. So that 

4 approach of selecting a mix for bioassay, you 

5 know that precedent has been established.

6 Now it sounds like we're walking 

7 into the arena of what about when you have a 

8 chest count. It seems to me that you have a 

9 similar circumstance. If you could somehow 

10 and you don't have -- I do not believe you 

11 have an OTIB that addresses chest counts. I 

12 don't believe 0054 talks about it. I'm not 

13 sure, but it might. What do you do when you 

14 have a chest count and you perhaps don't get a 

15 result back or I guess if you do get a result 

16 back and you see one particular radionuclide 

17 that that means there are not other 

18 radionuclides there also.

19 So I just wanted to give a broader 

20 perspective on this particular issue.

21 MS. BEHLING: Currently, OTIB-0054 

22 does not address chest counts and whole body 
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1 counts. It's for air sampling and urinalysis.

2 DR. MAURO: And urinalysis, okay.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I think the 

4 issue here is pretty clear, what kind of basis 

5 do you have for doing a missed dose 

6 calculation or any kind of internal dose 

7 calculation off of an in vivo count where you 

8 have this little suite of radionuclides each 

9 with its own MDA. Probably more radionuclides 

10 on the whole body count than any particular 

11 person had in their exposure environment.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: So, how do you do 

14 that is the question. Right?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: We just need to 

17 prepare for this discussion. That will be --

18 and we can't do it today.

19 MR. FARVER: And what I've seen 

20 done in the past is if you can document like a 

21 waste stream.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.
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1 MR. FARVER: What the ratios are. 

2 You may have 1,000 times more cesium than you 

3 do other nuclides. So you would just key off 

4 the cesium or you'd ratio it all out.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. You pick a 

6 marker radionuclide and then you just scale 

7 your intake, basically, on that marker intake.

8 MR. FARVER: And you would do the 

9 same thing even if it's at MDA.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: So that requires 

11 some sort of judgment, then, about the suite.

12 MR. FARVER: Yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: The person -- the 

14 suite of radionuclides that the person may 

15 have been exposed.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I'm 

17 not -- I think we'll leave it here. I'd say 

18 something, but I thought I'd get more 

19 discussion.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: It's a knotty 

21 issue.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: We need a --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll drop it 

3 off. Yes.

4 MR. FARVER: And really I'm not 

5 sure that that would result in any higher dose 

6 than what you're doing.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: It may not.

8 MR. FARVER: It may not.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: May not. It's 

10 hard to say.

11 MR. FARVER: And it may in some 

12 cases and not in other cases.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: That's usually 

14 what happens. Nothing ever works easily.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. 

16 127.10. Then we'll leave that in the NIOSH.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Or put it back 

19 in the NIOSH.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That is probably 

21 going to be a lengthy discussion and when we 

22 get ready we may give that a call kind of 
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1 thing. We'll just think about that later.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There are 

3 several that fall in that category, although 

4 maybe not all with the in vivo question or the 

5 whole body data counting question.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: A lot of them were 

8 OTIB-0054 questions more directly.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Anyway, 

10 127.10.

11 MR. FARVER: Kathy, is this 

12 similar?

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I was 

14 going to say.

15 MS. BEHLING: Let's see. I'm not 

16 there yet.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It seems very 

18 similar to the last one.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, this just 

20 speaks to that in vitro bioassay.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: As opposed to in 
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1 vivo.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: In vivo, right. 

3 So I think it needs to be probably looked at 

4 together. Yes.

5 MS. BEHLING: Yes. Okay. We're 

6 at 127.10?

7 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

9 MS. BEHLING: Okay. I think here 

10 we're talking about areas that this employee 

11 worked and we were questioning why NIOSH 

12 didn't assess doses associated with and 

13 monitor radionuclides just based on work 

14 location, and information provided in the TBD 

15 I believe we felt that this person may have 

16 been exposed to --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Because of the 

18 different work areas?

19 MS. BEHLING: Yes. Building 108F 

20 there may have been a radon generator there 

21 and --

22 MEMBER MUNN: 108 what?
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1 MS. BEHLING: 108F.

2 MEMBER MUNN: F?

3 MS. BEHLING: F as in Frank.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. Okay.

5 MS. BEHLING: I think -- and I 

6 have to say, somehow I missed this one and I 

7 didn't look at this in preparation for the 

8 meeting. But I think we were going to go back 

9 also and verify some of the work locations. I 

10 believe that it was pretty specific in the 

11 CATI report. I apologize, but I'll have to go 

12 back and look at this again.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I am not sure 

14 if this -- this is like, Kathy, you want time 

15 to look at this more before we -- I mean 

16 there's nothing really for NIOSH to follow up 

17 on, is there? Is the question the same on the 

18 table?

19 MS. BEHLING: I'm going to need to 

20 look at this again.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

22 MS. BEHLING: And like I said, I 
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1 wanted to verify the various locations that 

2 this person worked and dig a little further.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: At least one 

4 question is, though Building 108F had 

5 potential for radon exposure, is that what 

6 you're --

7 MR. FARVER: Apparently that's 

8 what's documented in the technical basis.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Yes.

10 MR. ULSH: Represented as a lung 

11 cancer case.

12 MR. FARVER: I'm not sure. Back 

13 to the beginning there.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

15 MR. ULSH: Otherwise radon 

16 wouldn't be much of anything.

17 MR. SIEBERT: I think talking 

18 about radon now you're getting into 127.11 

19 instead of .10.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh.

21 MR. ULSH: Looks like it's breast.

22 MR. FARVER: Well, it's not just 
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1 the radon issue. It's more work location.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So it's 

3 other stuff.

4 MR. FARVER: I believe the 

5 individual is a technician possibly involved 

6 in animal experiments, C14, P32, things like 

7 that.

8 MS. BEHLING: That's correct.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This talks 

10 about radium exposures in 127.11 where they do 

11 radon breast sampling. I'm not sure why 

12 that's not highlighted because it also says, 

13 NIOSH will also modify response.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Radon breast 

15 sampling is for radium.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: For radium, 

17 yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Radium -- assay.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. I'm 

20 dropping the radon comment for now. Kathy, if 

21 you can follow up. SC&A should still follow 

22 up on 127.10.
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1 MR. FARVER: Yes, what happened is 

2 in one of the CATI reports, it was stated that 

3 the employee submitted breast samples.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, from the CATI?

5 MR. FARVER: Yes.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

7 MR. FARVER: And that wasn't 

8 addressed in the CATI report, but it's 

9 probably, what, number 11. It's probably 

10 under the CATI report section. Yes, failed to 

11 address breast sample. Monitoring report is 

12 in CATI.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, my bias on 

14 reported breast sampling is that the 

15 spirometer would be a fit test. You know, 

16 people can produce activity -- well, and I 

17 think this has to be kind of period-specific 

18 because I don't know what the basis of this is 

19 whether anybody did breast-lung treatment --

20 MR. FARVER: They quote from the 

21 CATI report. I am sure the EE provided breast 

22 samples especially when the EE was working in 
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1 the 300 area.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you can see 

3 when he was working in an area.

4 MR. FARVER: Yes. That's the 

5 quote from the CATI.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There may be at 

7 least a way to follow up.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. We might go 

9 find out.

10 MR. ULSH: This refers to a 

11 different case. 127.11 is not the same case 

12 as 127.10.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's the same 

14 case.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: 127 is still 127. 

16 Anything in the number --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, the first 

18 three numbers 127.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: -- that's all the 

20 same case and the dot is the finding number 

21 under that.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. ULSH: But it's a breast 

2 cancer case. Right?

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, the radium 

4 exposure is.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The radium 

6 exposure.

7 MR. FARVER: So you have a finding 

8 number of 127.11 is --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's not radon.

10 MR. FARVER: -- that it was 

11 reported in the CATI report but it was not in 

12 the DR report.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So 127.11 

14 should be highlighted. I highlighted it now.

15 MEMBER CLAWSON: Is that B-3?

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Gosh, I think, 

17 Stu, you might be right. If you can determine 

18 the location and time period and track that 

19 back you may say there's no -- it may be that 

20 there was no chance or there was no radon 

21 breath being done at that time or breath 

22 monitoring could be something else for 
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1 respiratory fit test or whatever.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, very possibly.

3 DR. MAURO: Or if there was reason 

4 to believe there was any radium in that 

5 building at that time.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. There's 

7 two ways to kind of -- but we'll let you 

8 follow up on that one.

9 MR. FARVER: And then to clarify 

10 that the previous finding 127.10 concerned 

11 nuclides that an individual man had been 

12 exposed to like P-32 and others that were not 

13 accounted for. And since the employee was a 

14 laboratory technician --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MR. FARVER: -- and worked in 

17 different areas possibly with animal 

18 experiments, we thought that they should have 

19 been included.

20 MR. ULSH: Mark, what I have here 

21 is for 127.10. It's an SC&A action item 

22 that's to review the NIOSH response. 127.11 
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1 is, check out the breath monitoring issue 

2 and/or the likelihood of radium exposure in 

3 this building in time. Is that accurate?

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 

5 have right now unless -- so Kathy sounded like 

6 she wanted more time to look at this.

7 MR. FARVER: Oh, and that's fine. 

8 But I just --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: 127.10, I mean 

10 if --

11 MR. FARVER: I was just giving a 

12 general ruler for that.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Thank 

14 you.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Are we going to 

16 highlight .11?

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That was 

18 me being hasty in trying to close something 

19 out.

20 Brad is pointing out that 127.09 

21 also says NIOSH will follow up. But it also 

22 says, see 127.5. Let's just go up there. 
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1 SC&A agrees with NIOSH response on that.

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MEMBER CLAWSON: I didn't get that 

5 far.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I think 

7 we're okay there. Yes.

8 MR. ULSH: So is 127.09 closed?

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I'll just 

10 put a closed mark there so it's clear. You 

11 would agree with that, right, Doug? That one 

12 is closed?

13 MR. FARVER: Yes. Well, this is 

14 back to the -- no, that's the wrong one. 

15 Five. Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Let's

17 see. Going on, if anybody catches any others 

18 that I didn't highlight, please bring them to 

19 my attention. I'm coming up to 129.5 though. 

20 That's the next one I have. 129.5.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: This is the issue 

22 that we just talked about.
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1 MR. FARVER: Yes.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: And implying that 

3 it's to whole body.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And whole body 

5 counts, yes. That remains, right?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. 130.6. 

8 SC&A will review NIOSH response and I think 

9 it's that April 15th blue section.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: That would have 

11 been the most recent.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: A fission 

13 product test again.

14 MS. BEHLING: However, this -- I 

15 don't believe it's the same issue.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's different. 

17 Yes, this is different. Go ahead, Kathy. I'm 

18 sorry.

19 MS. BEHLING: That's okay. Doug, 

20 this is the one that I asked you to look at.

21 MR. FARVER: Okay. Fine. Let's 

22 go back to see the answer.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll tell you 

2 what. While Doug's looking at that, let's 

3 take a ten-minute, if people don't mind. A 

4 ten-minute little comfort break. I don't want 

5 to work right through to lunch. Doug is the 

6 only one that doesn't get a break.

7 MR. FARVER: That's okay.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Back in ten. 

9 Thanks. Off the record.

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

11 matter went off the record at 11:13 a.m. and 

12 resumed at 11:23 a.m.)

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: On the record.

14 MR. KATZ: We're getting ready to 

15 get going again. The folks on the phone, do 

16 we have you? John Mauro?

17 DR. MAURO: I'm here.

18 MR. KATZ: And Hans? Kathy?

19 MS. BEHLING: We're here.

20 MR. KATZ: Great.

21 MEMBER GIBSON: Mike, I'm here.

22 MR. KATZ: Hi, Mike.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. Doug.

2 MR. FARVER: Okay. 130.6. The

3 finding is the method underestimates fission 

4 product dose and just to recap the response. 

5 What's a good way to recap the response?

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I'd say that 

7 the person that provides the bioassay record 

8 worked in heavy water.

9 MR. FARVER: Yes and it has to do 

10 with how you evaluate the whole body counts 

11 and then the other time when -- 130.46. There 

12 was a time period where the person had urine 

13 samples and then there was a time period after 

14 that when the person had whole body counts and 

15 when we assessed it we felt that they should 

16 have used the certain intakes from Table 4.97 

17 out of the Savannah River Technical Data and 

18 that's all shown in Table 4 of our assessment.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

20 MR. FARVER: So we come up with a 

21 number of 21.5 rem as opposed to NIOSH's 9.8 

22 rem. So there's a difference in dose. Then 
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1 the NIOSH provides their response at the top 

2 and, Stu, I'll try to sum this up. But it 

3 looks like, for the first part of the dose 

4 which has to do with the time before the whole 

5 body counts, NIOSH says we go back and we'll 

6 calculate basically the way you say but for 

7 slightly different time periods and instead of 

8 our number they come up with one that's 

9 somewhere between theirs and ours.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

11 MR. FARVER: So that's okay and 

12 then they calculate their whole body count a 

13 little different, but I agree. I understand 

14 what they did and I agree with their first 

15 response. 

16 Now we go to the April 15 response 

17 and the question is about tritium apparently.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, Doug, 

19 before you go there, they're saying at the 

20 bottom of the first response the total dose 

21 increased from 20 to 23.

22 MR. FARVER: Yes.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It seems that 

2 you had quite a larger difference.

3 MR. FARVER: Well, yes. Okay. 

4 We'll get back to that 20 to 23. If you go 

5 down beyond that they'll say but this also 

6 caused -- where does it say that they 

7 decreased the tritium?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: The bottom of the 

9 --

10 MR. FARVER: Okay. This total 

11 dose also includes a reduction in the 

12 estimated tritium dose to meet 130.7. Okay. 

13 And that's when they describe what they did 

14 down there in blue in their April 15th 

15 response, I believe. Okay. And I understand 

16 what they did for their tritium number, too. 

17 That's okay.

18 The problem I have here or the 

19 concern I have is that little statement that 

20 says the total dose is increased from 20.450 

21 to 23.210 because I thought the total dose on 

22 this case was somewhere around 46 rem, 46.4. 
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1 So I don't know where that 20 came from.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know 

3 sitting here.

4 MR. FARVER: I mean I agree that 

5 the overall dose will probably increase by 

6 maybe a little over three rem or something 

7 like that, about three rem. But I think it 

8 should probably go up to about 48 instead of 

9 dropping down to 23.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: So you essentially 

11 base it on the description of the three rem 

12 increasing to be about right. Is that right?

13 MR. FARVER: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Those numbers 

15 don't seem to --

16 MR. FARVER: I don't know where 

17 the 20.450 came from.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

19 MR. FARVER: I mean, I think our 

20 question last time was, okay, you agree that 

21 you need to increase the fission product and 

22 then you take away the tritium. How did you 
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1 do that, and you came back with April 15th 

2 response saying, this is why we did that and 

3 that's okay. Then I started looking at the 

4 total dose numbers and they didn't seem to 

5 match the case file.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I don't 

7 know sitting here on that account.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So it sounds 

9 like, assuming that if we can resolve that 

10 total dose question you agree with their other 

11 response to the rest of those.

12 MR. FARVER: Yes. Basically the 

13 total dose should go up three rem.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

15 MR. FARVER: Or thereabout.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. So I 

17 have a follow-up for you, Stu, and if -- and 

18 assuming we figure out these total numbers 

19 then I think it goes away. It's closed. 

20 Right?

21 MR. FARVER: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, based on the 
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1 total.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm assuming, 

3 Doug, as you were talking -- I'm guessing that 

4 the three rem -- assuming the three-rem 

5 increase, Doug, is not going to affect the PoC 

6 in a particular case or did you consider that 

7 or -- I don't know that --

8 MR. HINNEFELD: At this point a 

9 lot of factors are going to be determined; 

10 what's the cancer, what's the age, the time 

11 since the exposure and the diagnosis. There 

12 are going to be a lot of factors.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is it a closing 

14 --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: If it's 45 to 48, 

16 it probably will be a lot closer than if it's 

17 20 to 23.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I didn't hear 

19 the original PoC is around.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: No, I don't know. 

21 I don't know any of the PoCs.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, the total 
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1 dose you're talking about.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay. So 

4 that's hard to answer right now. That's 

5 certainly something you'll consider when 

6 you'll follow up.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: If it is in fact 

8 45 and 48, you know, that's a very marginal 

9 increase in dose and therefore the risk.

10 MR. SIEBERT: The original was 42 

11 percent.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: The original was?

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Another 

15 three rem you have 45. So that's not a very 

16 high percentage of --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 

18 assumed when he was --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So if we 

21 resolve the total dose question, I think that 

22 will be closed.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

2 MR. KATZ: Did Scott just resolve 

3 it?

4 MR. HINNEFELD: No, he resolved 

5 the PoC question.

6 MR. KATZ: Oh, PoC.

7 MR. SIEBERT: I'm working 

8 feverishly to see if I can figure it out.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

10 MR. SIEBERT: If I come up with it 

11 in a little while, I'll let you guys know.

12 MR. KATZ: Okay.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That would be 

14 good. We can always go back and close that 

15 one out. That would be nice.

16 131.4. This is -- so I think 

17 you're supposed to provide a -- and it seems 

18 like kind of --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. I'm 

21 leaving that as a NIOSH action item. If any -

22 - as we're going along bringing these up, if 
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1 the action needs to be clarified please step 

2 in because I don't want to come back to the 

3 next meeting. It seems pretty --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: It's 

5 straightforward.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: But I think that's 

8 pretty clear.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Alright.

10 131.6 is TIB-0054. Looks familiar.

11 MS. BEHLING: This is the same 

12 thing in product, an issue that we discussed 

13 earlier.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. And we 

15 have several of those and at some point I'm 

16 not sure that the TIB-0054 and the TIB-0054 

17 related to the whole body counting issue. It 

18 may end up in a procedure, you know --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, a procedural 

20 thing or an overarching issue.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Because that 

22 committee has been kind of idle basically. 
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1 Nothing on the table.

2 Wanda is motioning me that she 

3 wants that one particularly.

4 MEMBER MUNN: No.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I think 

6 we'll keep it for now, but if we come back 

7 with a couple of these responses.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think she 

9 was beckoning with that thing.

10 MEMBER MUNN: No.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I might have 

12 misinterpreted that. Yes. Alright. So I'll 

13 just put her name on this action plan.

14 Where are we at now? Our next one 

15 is --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I see 135 now.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

18 MS. BEHLING: Excuse me. This is 

19 Kathy. I think this is an issue where we 

20 initially identified -- there was quarterly 

21 dosimetry data and there were missing 

22 quarters. I believe they may have been blanks 
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1 and they were interspersed with real data and 

2 we initially questioned why it wasn't 

3 considered missed data and then I believe the 

4 discussion went on to what should have been 

5 missed data or coworker data. And I think at 

6 the last meeting NIOSH indicated that they had 

7 sent us something to look at for how they were 

8 calculating these doses. I could not find 

9 that. It was a separate file. I could not 

10 find that.

11 I'm a little confused by -- this 

12 team to know --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Me, too.

14 MS. BEHLING: -- that's in there. 

15 So I guess I need clarification on this.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: So you want to 

17 know the evidence. I mean, our statement was 

18 that the person was monitored for the entire 

19 time. And so if the person was wearing a 

20 badge by the time he used missed dose and the 

21 actual measured dose, you don't worry about 

22 the monitored dose.
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1 Your concern is, apparently there 

2 seems to be gaps for certain quarters where 

3 there is nothing written down. And what's our 

4 evidence that that means a zero versus 

5 unmonitored? Is that where we're at?

6 MS. BEHLING: I think so because 

7 initially -- but initially you admitted that, 

8 no, you did not consider that missed dose and 

9 you did recalculate this. You actually had to 

10 rework this case because you went back and 

11 took out the on-site ambient then. And I just 

12 remember there being some question as to, 

13 should this have been missed or should it have 

14 been unmonitored and I believe you were going 

15 to go in and reassess the case and provide 

16 some information to us.

17 But, first of all, I couldn't find 

18 the data that we were supposed to be provided.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I think we just 

20 have the statement. I think we didn't put the 

21 statement in there, Kathy. I don't think we 

22 said anything.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That was the 

2 document. We said there was more information. 

3 That was it. Right?

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that was 

5 it. In fact, I think the original, our May 

6 30th -- said that the missed photon dose 

7 should have included the missing quarters of 

8 dosimetry data as well as the -- so already 

9 there's a judgment there that the person was 

10 monitored the entire time. Because if they're 

11 monitored at this point, you include them as 

12 dose. So there's a judgment there. And then 

13 that -- down.

14 So really the question is at what 

15 point or what is the evidence we have that the 

16 person was monitored is the question.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So that was the 

18 question. If you look at the original 

19 resolution --

20 MS. BEHLING: It was. Excuse me. 

21 That was the original question.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Revised based 
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1 on missed or coworker which implies --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: A coworker would 

3 be if there was a person exposed but not 

4 monitored. If they were monitored at zero or 

5 if they were reporting back this was blank and 

6 instead of zero. Then it would be also they 

7 were monitored. If that's the case, then it's 

8 a missed dose. The ambient is if the person 

9 was monitored and should not have been there.

10 MR. FARVER: How do you know if 

11 it's a missed dose or an unmonitored dose, I 

12 think is what --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So, in 

14 other words -- and we've said it's missed 

15 because he was there for the whole time. But 

16 how do we know that?

17 MR. FARVER: Well, I'm just 

18 throwing it out there. There must be a way to 

19 determine that.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it's 

21 probably from our knowledge of the records at 

22 the site. But I think that's how we would 
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1 determine that.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Somehow how it 

3 was done.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Somehow we had to 

5 determine that these blanks don't mean not 

6 much or they mean zero. Somehow we must have 

7 made that conclusion.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

9 MR. FARVER: But once again I'm 

10 thinking of future cases that come across. 

11 How do we resolve this in the future?

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it should be 

13 similar for the site. It was probably a site 

14 issue. It's probably not an individual issue. 

15 It's probably a site issue and had to do with 

16 the site reporting that.

17 MR. FARVER: Okay.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's K-25 or Y19 12. I'm not sure which because --

20 MR. FARVER: And if that's the 

21 case which is fine is that going to get 

22 documented somewhere?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. 

2 What do you mean documented somewhere?

3 MR. FARVER: Well, like a 

4 statement in the TBD.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I see.

6 MR. FARVER: So that in the future 

7 if you go back you know that, okay, if this 

8 happens again this is missed dose or monitored 

9 dose, whichever it is. You just have it 

10 written down.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. The 

12 things that I often found in those like DR 

13 instructions, you know, that for the Hanford 

14 dosimetry records if you see this in this 

15 field we now know that that means this. This 

16 is the same kind of thing you're talking 

17 about. Right?

18 MR. FARVER: Yes.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

20 MR. FARVER: And I don't mind 

21 that.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The practice of 
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1 Y-12 was to do this. So if you ever see that, 

2 yes. So we just need to know. Yes.

3 MS. BEHLING: I think for this 

4 particular case it would be prudent for us to 

5 also if we could look at NIOSH's rework of 

6 this case. I think it might be appropriate 

7 because this PoC was 46.5 percent and I just 

8 would feel more comfortable if we went back so 

9 I could really determine how this was 

10 reworked.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, can you 

12 get access to that case on the --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, since it 

14 wasn't sent to the -- it won't be on NOCTS. 

15 But this would be where it would be found. So 

16 we would have to put it together.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That wasn't 

18 sent yet.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Since we had 

20 to rework the case it wouldn't have been sent. 

21 It would just say this has been done this way. 

22 We wouldn't send a new dosing instruction to 
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1 the claimant that's not going to change 

2 anything.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Got you.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: So I'll see. And 

5 it won't be a complete dose reconstruction. 

6 It will be the calculation in support of those 

7 reconstructions. So you won't have a whole 

8 report.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That would be 

10 great. Yes.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I'll see what I 

12 can get.

13 MEMBER MUNN: So the action is 

14 you're going to send additional information to 

15 --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I'll send it 

17 to the Board because whenever I send anything 

18 to SC&A I also send it to the Subcommittee.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you'll 

20 provide --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Pretty much I do 

22 that.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Stu, I want to 

2 make sure I have the right wording for this 

3 because it's not the revised Dose 

4 Reconstruction report really. It was the --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: The revised 

6 calculation.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Revised 

8 calculation. Thank you. And I have -- the 

9 other part of the action was that NIOSH will 

10 provide the information indicated how they 

11 determined that the individual was not --

12 throughout the time period.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What's the next 

15 one, Brad?

16 MEMBER CLAWSON: 135.4.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you. 

18 Tritium exposure reported by EE. CATI not 

19 considered the DR. NIOSH is going to follow 

20 up on the potential tritium exposures of --

21 don't know that we've made progress since 

22 then.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: That's a new one 

2 to me.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I guess it was 

5 first identified in the CATI that they were 

6 exposed to it.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Did they 

8 -- well, I would actually hope that they 

9 didn't, but did they give building information 

10 related to that?

11 MR. HINNEFELD: If they didn't, 

12 there's plenty there.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. We'll 

14 just leave it as your action. That's fine. 

15 MR. FARVER: I don't believe so. 

16 They just indicated that there was an exposure 

17 to tritium.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: In CATI.

19 MR. FARVER: Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Okay. 

21 136.3. So you were going to follow up on that.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Is this Rocky
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1 Flats?

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think so. 

3 Yes, it sounds --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't have the 

5 answer here.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you 

7 originally didn't have films, right, when you 

8 --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: We originally had 

10 a record of the x-rays. As it turned out, it 

11 wasn't complete. There were additional films 

12 beyond that and I believe we got them. So I 

13 should be able to give you the answer to that 

14 on Rocky Flats.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So no more 

16 information today on that?

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Nothing today.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Unless Scott has -

20 MR. SIEBERT: I'm trying to find 

21 the ones where we looked that up and just 

22 seeing if I have that x-rays on my computer. 
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1 I think we're going to have to get back to you 

2 on that one.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. It looks 

4 like a large response.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What is the 

6 next one? 136.4. I see they will follow up. 

7 It looks like this large response along with 

8 some files. Runs were forwarded. And 

9 actually that is -- I have those in my file, 

10 my folder, several case 136's. Well, Doug, 

11 I'm assuming you have these. Right?

12 MR. FARVER: Yes, I do and --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Rocky Flats.

14 MR. FARVER: -- I'm going to have 

15 to just take a pass on this.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I'm 

17 going to really --

18 MR. FARVER: Unless, Kathy, did 

19 you have a chance to look at these?

20 MS. BEHLING: I did look at them, 

21 Doug. But I have to admit, now that I'm 

22 looking through the NIOSH response again, I 
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1 would prefer to take a second look.

2 MR. FARVER: Okay.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: For our next 

4 meeting, I mean obviously we're seeing a trend 

5 here. We'll talk about the timing of the 

6 meeting, but I really do want to close out the 

7 sixth and seventh set even if we have some of 

8 these things like the TIB-0054. There are 

9 several of those. We may have to group those 

10 and --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I almost -- we may 

12 want to get to this and may not -- and no need 

13 to decide now but we may approach you about a 

14 tentative conversation. I don't know. This 

15 is going to depend again -- I guess I've said 

16 this before but I guess I could say it again -

17 - our work, you know, being us and everyone 

18 else's work on these prevents us from working 

19 on dose reconstruction completion and 

20 investigations of sites. I mean there are 

21 only so many of us and so we're --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I understand. 
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1 But having these meetings where we just --

2 isn't very productive.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Still the same 

4 thing.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- isn't very 

6 productive.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: I understand. I 

8 feel bad about this. This was part of my 

9 responsibility, because I could not get to 

10 this in the last two weeks.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know. It's 

12 just --

13 MR. HINNEFELD: And that's why 

14 Brant is doing it. He'll be taking care of 

15 that.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. I

17 understand. I mean and even if we for the 

18 next meeting try to prioritize on --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: On six and seven.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Because they've 
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1 been hanging out there for quite a while.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, they've been 

3 there a while.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And the 

5 same for Kathy. Doug.

6 MR. FARVER: Yes.

7 MR. KATZ: Yes. If we come to two 

8 weeks before a meeting and it's clear to 

9 either SC&A or OCAS that you're not going to 

10 be able to get a substantial amount of the 

11 work done, let me know.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

13 MR. KATZ: We'll cancel the 

14 meeting instead of --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

17 DR. MAURO: This is John. One of 

18 the things that can be done when we're

19 sitting, when we're in this situation, we're 

20 pretty well prepared for the eighth set. I 

21 noticed that we're having a hard time getting 

22 off of the sixth and seventh in the last 
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1 couple of meetings. So if there are things 

2 that are going to have to sort of stay in the 

3 parking lot on six and seven, that's fine. 

4 But we could make lots of progress on eight, I 

5 believe.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

7 DR. MAURO: In other words, we 

8 don't have to close everything out of six and 

9 seven before we move on to eight unless you 

10 want to.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. I'm not 

12 proposing that. I'm just saying I think we 

13 can close them out for the next meeting and at 

14 this point we're almost through the seventh 

15 set. So we'll complete this.

16 But we do want to -- we should 

17 have plenty of time today, John, to hear from 

18 the Harshaw-Bridgeport Brass stuff and move 

19 through some of these. But I agree. Yes.

20 Alright. 136.5.

21 MEMBER CLAWSON: Basically it's 

22 tied back to the --
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. This is 

2 tied back. Same thing. Okay. Sorry.

3 137.4 is the next one. NIOSH, 

4 this is a -- question. Thorium and technetium 

5 -- this question. Well, this was -- I 

6 remember some discussions around this one, 

7 too. Yes. And it is this overarching issue, 

8 too.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: That is the 

10 overarching issue.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So do 

12 we want to refer this to Jim Neton's Work 

13 Group on overarching issues?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I think this 

15 should be going to the overarching issues. 

16 This goes from contaminated clothing.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly. Yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: I think that's 

19 going to be an overarching issue.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: They are probably 

22 going to site --
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: How you deal 

2 with it, yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. It will 

4 probably hit the -- this is probably going to 

5 be dealt with at probably a number of sites --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: -- that I know of. 

8 Not all but some.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, how do I 

10 -- there's no real work group on that.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we kind of 

12 have an overarching issues list. I can --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: NIOSH will add 

14 to overarching issues list.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And assign Jim 

17 Neton to resolve this.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, he's got 

19 nothing else to do.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: In seven days.

21 (Laughter.)

22 Seven days sounds correct.
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1 Let me ask. Now what about for 

2 this case, Stu? Is this a -- I mean is this a 

3 -- well, this is tricky because, you know, 

4 this is a skin cancer case. Depending on how 

5 you treat this it could really --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, both of 

7 these are skin cancer.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it has to 

9 be skin cancer case and depending on how you 

10 treat this issue you could have a pretty --

11 you know, we're just not sure on whether it's 

12 going to affect the outcome. Do you know what 

13 I mean? I'm getting to whether it could 

14 affect this case.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. You probably 

16 know what the Probability of Causation is.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

18 MS. BEHLING: 42.9.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Multiple cancers 

21 or a single cancer? Do you know?

22 MS. BEHLING: Three basal cell 
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1 carcinomas.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I don't 

3 know that we could just say that it wouldn't 

4 affect.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, you've got 

6 to -- probably a lot more.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Forty percent, 

9 you're only two-thirds of the way there. You 

10 need half as much again risk in order to get 

11 to 50 percent. So it's going to have to be a 

12 pretty big increment of the assigned dose to 

13 get there.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: She said three 

15 cancers, right?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Three cancers and 

17 three -- yes.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then we'll 

19 --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: The more 

21 complicated you can get.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Assuming no 
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1 more are identified, too.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Exactly.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Exactly.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I'm --

6 for purposes of this matrix, I think I can say 

7 that it's been shifted and I'll send a note to 

8 a nonexistent work group. But I mean, I guess 

9 I can document in writing to you, Stu, or 

10 Brant now or whoever.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Brant, probably.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That 

13 please add this to the overarching issues list 

14 and we'll track it that way.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And it's gone 

17 from our list. Yes.

18 MEMBER CLAWSON: You were talking 

19 about does this affect this case.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I mean 

21 we'll have it on here to -- so it's not going 

22 to completely disappear because it's --
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1 MEMBER CLAWSON: Okay. That's 

2 what I wanted to make sure.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's being 

4 transferred. It's being transferred, 

5 basically.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I'm 

8 going to un-highlight that. Sorry. Alright.

9 137.6, solubility assumption. 

10 SC&A was going to review this one.

11 MR. FARVER: Yes, and then I 

12 believe what it comes down to is it just was 

13 not in the records that they considered Type F 

14 and Type M uranium.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

16 MR. FARVER: Sometimes it is and 

17 sometimes it isn't.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. This is 

19 that question of showing urinalyses. Yes.

20 MR. FARVER: They state that it's 

21 more claimant-favorable, but there's no 

22 documentation to say that it is. That's all.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So it's 

2 closed.

3 MR. FARVER: Well, I wouldn't say 

4 that it's closed. It's -- how do you resolve 

5 this? In other words, you would like them to 

6 be in the records where they actually look at 

7 those cases, you know, Type M, Type F.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Well, 

9 that is one of our findings, though, that 

10 question of case documentation. 

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and I think 

12 there's probably some stuff to be said. I 

13 mean, I kind of hesitate saying, show all your 

14 work in the supporting documents, but in this 

15 case we have actual IMBA runs. We have 

16 actually a discreet, clearly a piece of work 

17 that you use in deciding what to do on the 

18 dose reconstruction. That's probably --

19 MR. FARVER: I mean if you're 

20 going to make that statement and you have a 

21 choice of several solubility types you should 

22 probably show that that is --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: If you're choosing 

2 one that's most favorable you should provide 

3 the evidence as well.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, I would 

5 argue --

6 MR. FARVER: Sometimes they do.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is my 

8 opinion but if you're in that situation a lot 

9 of times with internal dose where you're 

10 making that judgment or whatever it seems like 

11 it would make sense to document.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Certainly it's the 

13 decision. The decision is based on the one 

14 that's most claimant-favorable. It would seem 

15 that you would have to run them all to know 

16 which one was more claimant-favorable.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: And since you ran 

19 them all to show which one is most claimant20 favorable just stick them in the folder.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

22 MR. FARVER: And sometimes it 
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1 comes down to millirems' difference.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

3 MR. FARVER: Between the two and 

4 we'll see that in the files. That will show 

5 that and that's fine.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 MR. FARVER: They don't even have 

8 to show all the IMBA runs. What they'll do is 

9 they'll show the final outputs and they'll put 

10 them together in a spreadsheet.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Of the printouts 

12 of them.

13 MR. FARVER: Yes, and you can 

14 actually see the totals. That's fine.

15 MR. SIEBERT: I believe this is 

16 going to be an older issue that you're going 

17 to run into. Present day, I believe we do 

18 tell them to keep all their work and put it in 

19 the file because we've had this discussion 

20 many, many times.

21 MR. FARVER: Sure.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Okay.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So can we -- do 

2 you want us to go back and -- chances are 

3 we're going to have to recreate these IMBA 

4 runs. In order to show them, we're going to 

5 have to recreate them, because if they weren't 

6 saved originally, chances are we're not going 

7 to have them or at least retrieve them. So we 

8 could either close this now saying that now we 

9 are showing our work or we could recreate 

10 these IMBA runs and show this was in fact most 

11 favorable.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think we -- I 

13 mean my -- it is one on my -- on the case 

14 findings is one of the things that I've 

15 mentioned as -- to show the work question.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: And I think we're 

17 doing it going forward.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: But certainly in a 

20 case like this --

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know. The 

22 question is retrospectively and for your 
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1 archival records.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. But with 

3 these do we want to go back? I mean I would 

4 not propose that we go back and do it for all 

5 the claimants that are out there because we 

6 don't even know which ones they are.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean we could do 

9 it for this one. You know, we could recreate 

10 the IMBA runs or not. And we could go with 

11 it's really a show-your- work issue. You 

12 know, since you made the finding here, I guess 

13 it's just a matter of recreating the IMBA.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, but I also 

15 -- go ahead.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Is it not adequate 

17 just to say that the other ones were done, but 

18 were not at that time?

19 MR. HINNEFELD: That's kind of 

20 what we said.

21 MEMBER MUNN: And as you've 

22 already said, Mark, in your report, that's a 
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1 positive finding for actions that have 

2 resulted from our deliberations here --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: To make changes 

4 --

5 MEMBER MUNN: -- of the changes --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They have at 

7 least indicated that they've made those 

8 changes, right.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. On the 

11 other side of the coin -- I hate to argue 

12 against that -- the Subcommittee is reviewing 

13 this dose reconstruction.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

15 MEMBER MUNN: This specific one.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: And was this one 

17 done correctly?

18 MR. FARVER: Alright. And we 

19 don't --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: So in order to 

21 make that judgment you want to know can we see 

22 the IMBA runs to actually show that this 
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1 selection was appropriate.

2 MEMBER CLAWSON: Personally 

3 myself, I feel like they have to go back and 

4 show the IMBA runs and then SC&A review those.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, but I mean

7 the question -- I think the other question is, 

8 a larger question that we're going to have to 

9 wrestle with is, if we as a Board ask for more 

10 and it may be -- I mean I can think of 

11 different sorts of outcomes from this. But one 

12 thing might be that if you have for best13 estimate cases, you know, it's sort of like 

14 that quality control question that we talked 

15 about, Stu.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Where the 

18 different levels of, you know, if you have 

19 peer reviews and they weren't important. So 

20 you didn't change the case. You note that.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So the same 
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1 kind of thing that if you had an 

2 overestimating case or an underestimating case 

3 maybe it wouldn't be -- retrospectively, I'm 

4 not sure we would ever ask it again. But for 

5 some cases we may say it's important for the 

6 archival record to go back and add the --

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And since we're 

8 here, since you're reviewing this one, I think 

9 the easiest thing other than the discussion is 

10 for us to go and recreate the IMBA.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh yes, for 

12 this one. Yes. But I'm thinking the global 

13 implications, you know.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Beyond 

15 anything that's specifically in front of you.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Well, 

18 that's up to you.

19 MR. FARVER: And what I'd suggest 

20 is that if you want to include the IMBA runs, 

21 fine. But I would just put it, you know, 

22 paste the --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: The IMBA results.

2 MR. FARVER: -- IMBA results so 

3 you can show that one's higher than the other.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

5 MR. FARVER: And the other concern 

6 is, is it documented now in a DR instruction 

7 or somewhere that they include all their 

8 solubility classes or like you said show your 

9 work?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. 

11 Scott, can you answer that?

12 MR. SIEBERT: I do not believe so. 

13 I mean we've all been instructed, but I don't 

14 know if there's an overarching dose 

15 reconstruction procedure that covers that kind 

16 of thing.

17 MR. FARVER: You might want to put 

18 --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: You may want to 

20 think about that.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, you may 

22 want to document it.
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1 MR. FARVER: Because it will come 

2 up again. That way if it's documented 

3 somewhere you can say, ah, you didn't follow 

4 your procedure.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

6 MR. FARVER: Your procedure or --

7 so we don't have to go through this every 

8 time.

9 MEMBER MUNN: So is our action 

10 here twofold, 1) that they will document this 

11 specific case and, 2) that they will document 

12 where in their instructive process future 

13 cases will be documented as a matter of 

14 course?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I think 

16 that makes sense.

17 MEMBER CLAWSON: I think there was 

18 something else besides; you know the IMBA runs 

19 and so forth like that. But as we've 

20 progressed on further, they've done the 

21 process different ways and there was just 

22 documentation of their work is what it came 
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1 down to if I'm correct in how did they reach 

2 this. Remember we used to have some earlier 

3 processes and you guys reconstruct their --

4 because you didn't know what --

5 MR. FARVER: Didn't know how they 

6 did things.

7 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right. That was 

8 one of the biggest parts right there with just 

9 showing their work of how they came to this 

10 point.

11 MR. FARVER: Right, and that's 

12 just part of it.

13 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right. I just 

14 wanted to make sure we didn't miss that other 

15 little part.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So, Stu, are 

17 you -- do you want to check into where this --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: What I will do --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- whether this 

20 is documented?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Check in to where,

22 you know, how the --
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I don't 

2 want to here just say that NIOSH --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: What I said is 

4 that we would --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- provides a 

6 policy.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: We will consider 

8 where in our procedures, etc., we should not 

9 give them the work thing.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay and that 

11 closes it for this case, though.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Does it?

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, maybe 

14 it's not closed.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Probably not 

16 closed until we show you the other.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess you 

18 have to show us where you're going to do it. 

19 Yes. Okay.

20 MEMBER MUNN: And redo the IMBA 

21 runs.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Well, I 
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1 thought they had kind of redone it. It was 

2 just a matter of posting them, but maybe not. 

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. We 

4 might have.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. We'll 

6 keep it open. What the heck. Okay.

7 137.7. We don't have many more. 

8 There are only a couple more yellows.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't think that 

10 we've done our part on 137.7.

11 MR. FARVER: Well, Kathy, have you 

12 looked at this?

13 MS. BEHLING: No, I was actually 

14 thinking I was waiting for something from 

15 NIOSH.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: So, yes, you want 

17 to see the --

18 MR. FARVER: Okay. I see.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We'll look into 

20 recorded urinalysis results greater than the 

21 MDA for some products which were not 

22 addressed. 
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, there is --

2 are these possibly the results of MDA for 

3 fission products in the Y-12 mobile counter?

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess so. 

5 No, it says urinalysis. So I guess --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Oh, urinalysis. 

7 Okay.

8 MS. BEHLING: The whole body 

9 count?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Urinalysis okay. 

11 Alright.

12 MR. FARVER: And I believe, Hans, 

13 somewhere along the line didn't you use a 

14 reference for the Y-12 mobile counter and we 

15 couldn't find the reference?

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, well, 

17 that's what the second part of that action was 

18 post the reference.

19 MR. FARVER: I don't know what the 

20 name of it was.

21 MEMBER MUNN: That was provided.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. FARVER: It is?

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That's in 

3 there. Okay.

4 Alright. Then I think we're on 

5 the last one here for this set, 137.8.

6 MS. BEHLING: Yes, I looked into 

7 this one. Initially, the employee identified 

8 in this CATI report said he felt that he was 

9 doing work where he had face and arm burns, 

10 and from dust, and NIOSH did provide us with a 

11 response indicating that they do have an 

12 approach that they can use for calculating 

13 skin contamination involving tech-99. 

14 However, they felt that in this particular 

15 case they were questioning what the basis was 

16 for this individual or for us believing that 

17 he potentially did have a skin contamination.

18 And I went back through all of the 

19 records and I still in my gut feel that in 

20 this particular case this individual, based on 

21 his work location and his job function, could 

22 have been exposed or could have had skin 
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1 contamination that would certainly affect this 

2 particular case. It's just a gut-level thing 

3 and just based on the data. I just can't 

4 dismiss that there possibly shouldn't have 

5 been a skin contamination dose calculated.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is this 

7 Paducah?

8 MS. BEHLING: It's Paducah, yes.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: And is this a 

10 situation where there's nothing in the record 

11 that necessarily indicates the skin 

12 contamination? But based on the type of work 

13 that that person did you feel like there's 

14 some likelihood that there was a skin 

15 contamination.

16 MR. FARVER: In the statements in 

17 the CATI report.

18 MS. BEHLING: Statements in the 

19 CATI, yes. Nothing to report any incident in 

20 the DOE records, but just where he worked, the 

21 jobs he did and information from the CATI.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, this to me 
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1 is an issue we talked about a number of times 

2 which is what do you do in a situation where a 

3 person may have been skin contamination in 

4 their workplace and there's nothing that 

5 indicates that they did. There's no reporting 

6 or they may say in the CATI, this stuff was 

7 all around. Of course, we got it on our skin, 

8 you know, something like that, which somebody 

9 from Fernald would probably say. And what do 

10 you do about that? And what kind of dose 

11 calculation do you do in that situation?

12 So we've had this discussion 

13 before. I don't think we've gone anywhere 

14 with it.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I know.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: But I think it's 

17 probably an overarching issue.

18 MR. FARVER: We'll see in the 

19 eighth set, there's a somewhat similar case 

20 and you do a skin contamination.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I wondered 

22 how we did it.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That might 

2 answer the question.

3 MR. FARVER: So it's not exactly 

4 the same but it's similar. It's information 

5 on the CATI report that leads to NIOSH doing a 

6 skin dose.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. We'll have 

8 to watch so we can see. Just on that, it's 

9 just on the general sense. I mean if a person 

10 says, my skin was contaminated. You know they 

11 monitor me and I was contaminated on such at 

12 this building and it was about this year, you 

13 know, that's pretty specific and there might 

14 be something you would do in that case.

15 If a person says, the stuff was 

16 all over the place. There was dust all over 

17 the place. I'm sure we have it on our hands.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It depends on 

19 what you --

20 MR. HINNEFELD: That's another 

21 thing, too.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So it all depends 

2 on what you're going to say is the evidence of 

3 the skin contamination and even then, I have 

4 to see what we did because I don't understand 

5 how we did that exactly.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then the 

7 other -- I mean there's an overarching 

8 question. But there also may be another 

9 answer which you know could lead you to say we 

10 can't reconstruct, you know, or there's a 

11 strong potential during this time period in 

12 these areas that beta doses were high and we 

13 can't reconstruct them because we don't have 

14 the data. I mean that's --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Could be.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Of course, as a 

18 class --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's a -

20 -

21 MR. HINNEFELD: -- based on skin 

22 dose --
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know. That 

2 would be interesting.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: -- compensated in 

4 the file.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know. I 

6 know.

7 DR. MAURO: The irony of that is 

8 that --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we've got 

10 it.

11 DR. MAURO: -- is you do an SEC, 

12 but the trigger that leads you there, you 

13 don't compensate skin cancer. It's sort of 

14 ironic.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we just 

16 said it. Yes.

17 (Laughter.)

18 There's a lot of ironies in this 

19 program.

20 MEMBER CLAWSON: One of the things 

21 to match on this though is that there wasn't 

22 something reported. You realize per about 
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1 1985-1990 a lot of this was not reported 

2 unless it was a major incident. You'd go 

3 clean up. Bottom line, if you were 

4 contaminated, you would just go clean up.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Sure. Yes.

6 MEMBER CLAWSON: No big. Just the 

7 way you'd do it. So you can tell in the later 

8 years when they actually had a procedure if 

9 this does happen that it's reportable.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Once the DOE 

11 published current reportable criteria for skin 

12 contaminations, then everybody got more 

13 careful about reporting them. You're right.

14 MEMBER CLAWSON: Right.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: And realistically 

16 if you're working today and you get 

17 contaminated and you get cleaned up at the end 

18 of the day, you're not getting much dose but 

19 skin contamination. So I mean if it's that 

20 kind of situation I don't know that it's that 

21 bad.

22 I think the issue might be what 
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1 about cases where people didn't necessarily 

2 clean up or didn't get detected. They didn't 

3 necessarily get cleaned up at the end of the 

4 day. That's probably where it might be a 

5 relevant issue because of one day unless 

6 you're -- well, you guys may have had this. I 

7 don't know. But there would be a very limited 

8 number of spots where you're going to get 

9 significant dose in one-day contamination. 

10 There's going to be a limited number.

11 MEMBER CLAWSON: That's from 

12 experience. I can't talk about that.

13 MR. FARVER: But even something 

14 like that would be useful to document because 

15 I believe like at the uranium plants I believe 

16 the policy was that when you leave the area 

17 you wash your hands.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Shower.

19 MR. FARVER: Or shower. At the 

20 end of the day, you'd shower.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. At the end 

22 of the day, shower.
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1 MR. FARVER: So if you could 

2 actually show that if you did shower at the 

3 end of the day, the most you could have it on 

4 is so many hours and this would be the dose.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: So it essentially 

6 would be sort of policy that says that's done 

7 and that's not something --

8 MR. FARVER: It's either a concern 

9 or not a concern.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: That's something 

11 that needs a little further discussion than 

12 just meeting down here.

13 DR. MAURO: We had this discussion 

14 as it applied I think to places like Paducah 

15 and there was some discussion on this matter 

16 and SC&A's position always has been if there's 

17 a work setting like a Paducah or Portsmouth 

18 where there's a real potential for airborne 

19 particulate -- in this case it would be 

20 uranium -- and if you have that potential and 

21 a person has a skin cancer that's on a 

22 possibly exposed portion of the body, the 
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1 face, neck, ears -- we've had those -- we ran 

2 some calculations with our skin. Say, okay, 

3 let's assume this guy has -- and we had 

4 different particle sizes. You know, we did it 

5 parametrically and you're right. When it 

6 comes to uranium, if you assume that the 

7 little spot on the guy's neck where the skin 

8 cancer was found, you know, beside the beta 

9 dose that you would assign from his beta 

10 dosimeter, you add to that some localized dose 

11 for eight hours that he just happened to have 

12 a particle land and he's exposed for that, you 

13 can do that calculation. And then we were 

14 talking about it, but you wouldn't assume that 

15 would happen every day. You know, what's the 

16 chance that that same spot every day would get 

17 contaminated.

18 So what I'm getting at is that 

19 there are ways of coming at the problem and I 

20 would agree that when it comes to uranium, I 

21 think our numbers showed that an eight-hour 

22 exposure to uranium particle on the skin is 
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1 not going to be that great.

2 But I mean we had lots of 

3 discussions about this and I believe it was 

4 the intent of NIOSH to look into this matter. 

5 But I don't think it's gone that far and I 

6 think it's a very important matter because 

7 time and again I know I comment. I deal with 

8 a lot of AWE facilities and when I see a skin 

9 cancer it's always one of my comments. You 

10 know, here we have an AWE, lots of grinding of 

11 uranium, that sort of thing where the 

12 particles have become airborne. These are 

13 early years. A person has a skin cancer on 

14 his arm or his face or his neck. But we've

15 really never achieved closure on any of those.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Correct. I 

17 left this as an action for this case and said 

18 that there is a potential that it will be 

19 moved to the overarching issues. But I think 

20 there's that job question hanging out there 

21 with this one, too, you know, that is there a 

22 likelihood of this person was in an area where 
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1 it could, where he/she could, have received 

2 higher beta exposures.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I think just 

4 based on the count, you know, probably our own 

5 observations and accounts of some places, 

6 there were probably some places where there 

7 were some skin contamination was just expected 

8 and then washed off at the end of the day.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: And some of those 

11 are probably worse than others.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But you did 

13 note -- I don't know this person's job, but 

14 you did note in your response that there is 

15 some buildings that had the potential for 

16 higher levels of the --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Plus at Paducah 

18 there was some high level of tech and stuff.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Tech, yes. 

20 Tech is one of them, yes. So we'll leave it 

21 as an action for this committee right now with 

22 the potential that they'll slide it into the 
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1 overarching.

2 Alright. And is that it for the 

3 seventh set? I think it was.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Looks like it.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So I 

6 think we're at a good point to break for 

7 lunch.

8 DR. MAURO: Say, Mark.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: This is John. Could I 

11 -- before we break for lunch could I make what 

12 I hope is received as a positive, constructive 

13 criticism. When we're in the home stretch 

14 like on the sixth set and on the seventh set 

15 before we, let's say, jump into the real big, 

16 say the eighth, ninth, tenth and we're at a 

17 point where there are five, six, seven, ten 

18 issues that need to be driven, one of the 

19 things we're fortunate enough to do on the 

20 Procedures Work Group is a few weeks before 

21 the meeting Steve Marschke sort of pokes 

22 everybody, everybody at SC&A. And I believe 
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1 he even interacts with some folks over at 

2 NIOSH to say listen, we're coming to an 

3 upcoming meeting. There are a number of 

4 action items that we discussed three months 

5 ago, two months ago, where SC&A would do this 

6 and NIOSH would do that and he sort of takes 

7 it on himself to sort of annoy everybody and 

8 say, listen, we have an obligation to address. 

9 We have some action items here that we 

10 committed to at the last meeting. And he sort 

11 of pushes it and tries his best to get 

12 everyone to respond, gets in touch with Joyce, 

13 gets in touch with me and the other members of 

14 our team and pushes us to write our response 

15 so that he brings to the table at the meeting 

16 material.

17 Otherwise, we're all otherwise 

18 engaged and we don't really --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I should 

20 have poked earlier than Monday, is what you're 

21 saying.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes. In other words, 
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1 yes.

2 (Simultaneous speakers.)

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I did 

4 send you a revised matrix about a month ago.

5 DR. MAURO: Yes, but it might be a 

6 good idea not necessarily, I mean, to have 

7 someone, whether it's an SC&A person or a 

8 NIOSH person, to sort of go back and see 

9 everything we just did over the last three 

10 hours.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

12 DR. MAURO: And let's say it's all 

13 recorded. We have it all. But one of the 

14 things that might be helpful is, two or three 

15 weeks before the next Subcommittee meeting 

16 that person would sort of take it on himself 

17 to just poke everyone to say, listen, we have 

18 an action item here, and that would go for 

19 both sides. You know, I know that it really 

20 helps us a lot on the Procedures Work Group 

21 meeting where I know Steve Marschke who does 

22 that.
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1 Now, of course, it's a little 

2 easier from Procedures because we don't have 

3 very many new procedures we're reviewing while 

4 we're inundated, all of us, with ongoing 

5 review of DRs. But, still, I think a little 

6 bit of that kind of thing might really help us 

7 move through these quicker.

8 MR. KATZ: John, I mean I think 

9 this -- Kathy, to volunteer you. I mean I 

10 think this is something you could probably do. 

11 I would just say two weeks is probably not 

12 enough. You would probably want a month ahead 

13 of the meeting. No? Don't you think, Mark, 

14 to -- if you're going to sort of lay out the 

15 action sheet.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The problem I'm 

17 finding is, you know, I sent out the matrices. 

18 I forget what date, but it was a while ago. 

19 It's been a month.

20 MR. FARVER: I got ours two days 

21 ago.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You got the 
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1 matrices two days ago.

2 MR. FARVER: Yes. On the third.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's a 

4 management problem then.

5 DR. MAURO: No, I don't 

6 necessarily think that. It's a matrix 

7 problem. I think, Mark, you're putting out 

8 the matrix and that's fine.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: But we just had a 

11 meeting and we all know we should all be here 

12 taking notes. We should know where all the 

13 action is on the sixth and seventh cases.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

15 DR. MAURO: And if someone were 

16 given the responsibility to say, listen, make 

17 sure that action is taken as we committed to 

18 on both ends.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

20 DR. MAURO: And initiate that.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This can be 

22 done, John. I agree. But you can also -- I 
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1 mean, we're all professionals here. You can 

2 go into Outlook and put a tickler for three 

3 weeks out from the Subcommittee meeting and 

4 say, oh, yes. Mark said all those yellow 

5 highlighted ones. I'd better go back and look 

6 at those.

7 DR. MAURO: And it may be as 

8 simple as that. You're right.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I can do that, 

10 but I get a little busy myself and I don't 

11 feel like I have the time to -- David, you 

12 know -- hassle people to get responses done.

13 MR. KATZ: I don't think you need 

14 to do it, Mark. But I think it's good. I 

15 mean I think it could be effective to just 

16 have the list of the to-dos not buried in the 

17 matrix but just in a line listing. OCAS' to18 dos with the references.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

20 MR. KATZ: And SC&A's to-dos with 

21 the references. It would just make it easier 

22 because everybody has too many balls in the 
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1 air.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I know.

3 MR. KATZ: And that's what 

4 happens.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I suppose. I 

6 just thought the yellow highlights; they stand 

7 out pretty easily when you scan through it.

8 MR. KATZ: If you're reading 

9 through your matrix at that time.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MR. KATZ: This just puts it in 

12 front of people. I don't know. I think it's 

13 a minor step administratively to pull them 

14 out.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it's fine 

16 with me.

17 MR. KATZ: And I think it would 

18 make things just very clear then that three 

19 weeks in advance or whatever, a month in 

20 advance. 

21 I don't know. John or Kathy, does 

22 that sound okay to you to just actually 
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1 extract those?

2 DR. MAURO: I think it's needed 

3 and the person that I think is the best 

4 position to do it and here we go is probably 

5 Kathy.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: You know she's got the 

8 big -- the bird's eye view of the whole thing 

9 and I could see -- Kathy, would you mind 

10 taking that on?

11 MS. BEHLING: No, that's fine. 

12 I'm willing to do that.

13 DR. MAURO: Great.

14 MS. ADAMS: This is Nancy Adams. 

15 Are you, John, suggesting, too, that she ought 

16 to look at the transcript before or the matrix 

17 is just enough?

18 DR. MAURO: I think the fact that 

19 she's on the line right now she could move on 

20 this. Of course, when the matrix, when the 

21 transcript comes out, that would be helpful 

22 because I am assuming the transcript will come 
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1 out well before the next meeting and the main 

2 thing is we could just tickle a tickler for 

3 everyone at least a month before the next 

4 meeting because many of these items I get the 

5 sense that if someone would just put aside an 

6 hour or two --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: -- they probably could 

9 put this to bed, write up a little White Paper 

10 and response and have it all ready for the 

11 meeting and say, yes, we've looked at this and 

12 here's our position or even provide it before 

13 the meeting. In other words, it's just a 

14 relatively small step. So the answer is I 

15 think we could work from a transcript 

16 especially if it's out pretty quick. I 

17 understand the transcripts are put out on 

18 about a month cycle.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't even --

20 I don't know why you have to work from a 

21 transcript. I mean it's --

22 DR. MAURO: I agree.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It can be used 

2 as backup, but I think the matrix is --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Or from our notes 

4 from the meeting.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The matrix and 

6 from Kathy's notes.

7 DR. MAURO: I agree. Either way.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And so Wanda 

9 just slipped a note that I did forward the 

10 matrices on 10/13 to everyone. So in my --

11 it's not my -- that's a problem internally, 

12 but I sent them out to SC&A, NIOSH and all 

13 Committee members on 10/13 and that's about 

14 three weeks in advance.

15 DR. MAURO: And that's great, but 

16 you could see without someone cracking the 

17 whip, it doesn't happen.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I know what 

19 you're saying and that's fine. If Kathy wants 

20 to take on that task, that's fine.

21 MR. KATZ: Let's do that.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, that's 
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1 fine. Okay. Alright. On that note, we'll 

2 break for lunch. Kathy, can you get a list of 

3 to-dos for -- no, just kidding. Alright. I 

4 think we're going to break for lunch for one 

5 hour. So 1:20 p.m. Off the record.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

7 matter went off the record at 12:20 p.m. and 

8 resumed at 1:25 p.m.)

9

10

11

12

13

14
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 (1:25 p.m.)

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: On the record. 

4 Okay. We're ready to reconvene. Kathy and 

5 Hans, are you guys on the line?

6 DR. BEHLING: We're here.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Great.

8 MR. KATZ: And, Mike Gibson, are 

9 you back with us?

10 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I'm back.

11 MR. KATZ: Great.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I was 

13 just -- so we closed out the sixth and seventh 

14 sets. I was just wondering at this point. I 

15 wanted to discuss the issues identified in the 

16 first 100 cases. But I thought just for 

17 scheduling purposes we might go on to the 

18 eighth set and talk about those two mini site 

19 profiles. I think this would probably be a 

20 good point so that then -- because I know, 

21 Hans, you're involved in that and I don't want 

22 to hold you on the line waiting for when that 
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1 might come up on the agenda.

2 DR. BEHLING: Okay.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So if you would 

4 prefer, I mean we can do that right now if 

5 that's --

6 DR. BEHLING: That's fine and, in 

7 fact, if it turns out that Bridgeport Brass is 

8 the first one we'll discuss, Harry Chmelynski 

9 was one of the chief -- with some of the issue 

10 that were raised.

11 DR. MAURO: Yes, I would prefer 

12 that, too, because I do have to bail out of 

13 here about a quarter to four or so.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. Why 

15 don't we do that then? Either order you 

16 prefer just --

17 DR. MAURO: Bridgeport Brass would 

18 be the one that --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

20 DR. MAURO: -- I'd like to go 

21 first.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. Let's 
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1 go to Bridgeport Brass then and give us a 

2 second to pull these documents open. We're 

3 all going to find what you sent out. 

4 DR. MAURO: Okay.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It should be 

6 the ones I sent this morning. Yes. 

7 Bridgeport Brass is actually a Word file.

8 MEMBER CLAWSON: Is it White Paper 

9 Bridgeport TBD?

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MS. BEHLING: I actually do have a 

12 PDF version of that if you would like me to 

13 send that out.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it's 

15 okay for now. Yes.

16 MS. BEHLING: Okay.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And just to get 

18 our bearings, John, this is listed at the end 

19 of the matrix. Is that correct?

20 DR. MAURO: The matrix right now, 

21 the Bridgeport Brass portion of the matrix --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can you speak -
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1 -

2 DR. MAURO: -- is on page 56 of 

3 74.

4 MS. BEHLING: It's Attachment 1 at 

5 the end of the eighth set.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

7 DR. MAURO: Yes. Let me help out 

8 a little bit. The actual review of Bridgeport 

9 Brass as a formal deliverable was part of the 

10 big three-ring binder eighth set and it's 

11 Attachment 1 at the back of that.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

13 DR. MAURO: However, your matrix 

14 that you sent out also contains it and it's 

15 part of the matrix. It comes right after --

16 in other words, you have your sequence of case 

17 numbers.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's on page 

19 56, right?

20 DR. MAURO: It's on page 56.

21 DR. BEHLING: Yes. Page 54 is the 

22 Bridgeport Brass.
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1 DR. MAURO: Okay. Maybe the way 

2 we printed it out.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: It's after -- in other 

5 words, you're going through Case number 178.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: And then the next 

8 string then begins the attachments, 

9 Attachments 1, 2 and 3. So the two places 

10 that we could work from, one is the actual 

11 big, thick three-ring binder with Attachments 

12 1, 2, and 3 or we could work from the matrix 

13 which, of course, captures it in summary form.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Since I don't carry 

15 the big three-ring binder around and since --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 DR. MAURO: And that's okay. We 

18 can give you the 30-second sound bite on each 

19 one and I think these can move pretty quickly.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and you 

22 can expand as you need to. That's fine. This 
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1 would be a good overview for us I think for 

2 these. So go ahead. Start with Bridgeport 

3 Brass. Everybody has the matrix opened and we 

4 also have your White Paper on the topics.

5 DR. MAURO: Good. I'll sort of 

6 start off, but, Harry Chmelynski and Hans, we 

7 were all very much a part of this.

8 So let's start off with the first 

9 item. The first issue has to do with -- the 

10 statement is made that the site profile would 

11 benefit from additional analysis demonstrating 

12 that the full value intake rates adopted in 

13 the exposure matrix are claimant-favorable for 

14 the early operational time period. Bottom 

15 line is this. This is Finding Number 1 and it 

16 turns out when you look at the data, the 

17 urinalysis data, that Bridgeport Brass 

18 consists of two different facilities, one in 

19 Connecticut and one someplace else. And it's 

20 the Havens Laboratory and the other one is the 

21 Adrian Plant. 

22 The problem is on this issue --
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1 this is what we raised -- is that it appears 

2 that for the Adrian Plant there is a lot of 

3 urinalysis data beginning, it starts to build, 

4 in 1960. But prior to that, it seems to be 

5 very sparse and the approach that's used to 

6 reconstruct doses in the generic matrix for 

7 Bridgeport Brass for the Adrian Plant is where 

8 they compile all these data and then they use 

9 that data, bioassay data, that's available and 

10 from that develop a coworker model that they 

11 assign to the workers.

12 Our concern is that the coworker 

13 model for Adrian Plant was built from data 

14 which was post-1960 urinalysis and there's 

15 some question whether it has applicability to 

16 pre-1960 time period and that's the question 

17 we raised.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What's the --

19 John, if I can interrupt, when is it? Pre20 1960, but does it go back to what date?

21 DR. MAURO: Yes, let me see the 

22 dates. I have to check to see when they --
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1 the introduction here.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

3 DR. MAURO: I would have to go --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Fifty four --

5 DR. MAURO: Yes. It started --

6 the Adrian, the history of the site, it 

7 started before. Yes. The exact date I don't 

8 have handy unfortunately.

9 MEMBER CLAWSON: Havens Lab was 

10 June 1952 and the Adrian Plant was May 1954.

11 DR. MAURO: There you go. Thank 

12 you.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: So we got ourselves a 

15 five-, six-, seven-year period, whatever, yes, 

16 there's a paucity of bioassay data and the 

17 question becomes can you use the post-1960 

18 data, urinalysis data, as a reasonable 

19 surrogate for the pre-1960 data for the Adrian 

20 Plant. And that was the question. And in the 

21 matrix, there is a response. NIOSH said that 

22 they're going to look into that. So my 
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1 understanding is that's where we are right now 

2 on this issue.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let me get some 

4 help on that. I don't see anywhere a NIOSH 

5 response. Do I have --

6 DR. MAURO: Well, I'm looking at 

7 that yellow marker on the yellow mark.

8 MR. FARVER: That's in the file I 

9 sent you, John. That's not in the file that 

10 Mark sent you.

11 DR. MAURO: Oh.

12 MS. BEHLING: There was a separate 

13 file.

14 DR. MAURO: Okay. We're looking 

15 at different files.

16 MR. FARVER: Yes. NIOSH did send 

17 out responses back in the spring and I just 

18 put them into the matrix to send them off to 

19 John and Hans so they would have those to look 

20 at.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you know 

22 what they sent those under because I didn't 
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1 have the matrix obviously.

2 MR. FARVER: Well, they sent them 

3 as a matrix, but this is where everyone sent 

4 in different matrices.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh.

6 MS. BEHLING: There was a file 

7 named Response to NIOSH Comments on Bridgeport 

8 Brass Matrix. No, that must not be it.

9 DR. BEHLING: Kathy, these are the 

10 responses right here.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't have 

12 any such file.

13 MR. FARVER: I know there was one 

14 that Stu sent earlier in the year.

15 DR. BEHLING: The response I read 

16 here in the matrix is that -- and I quote in 

17 NIOSH's response, additional analysis of this 

18 finding is necessary and will be provided upon 

19 completion.

20 DR. MAURO: Yes, that's what I 

21 have also.

22 MR. FARVER: Yes, that's in the 
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1 file that I sent you.

2 DR. BEHLING: And that is dated 

3 June 4, 2008.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: June 4th, okay. 

5 June 4, 2008?

6 MEMBER MUNN: 2008?

7 DR. BEHLING: No, I'm sorry. I'm 

8 looking at the wrong side of the table. It's 

9 working draft January 26, 2009.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Yes, I 

11 still have that.

12 MS. BEHLING: Probably somewhere 

13 in the March-April 2009 time frame.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I've got a 

15 March one though and I didn't see --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: It's about January 

17 26th of '09?

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you have the 

19 full file name?

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I've got what 

21 I called it. It starts with the Matrix 

22 Determination Report Rev 0 January 26 '09 with 
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1 Disclaimer. And so it's got that, you know, 

2 the disclaimer on the top document contains 

3 pre-decisional stuff.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's the file 

5 name or is that --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: No, that's all in 

7 the file name.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't have 

9 that one.

10 MEMBER MUNN: We're still on 

11 Bridgeport, right?

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we're 

13 trying to find this.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We're trying to 

16 find this --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm looking when 

18 we sent this.

19 MEMBER MUNN: I have two 

20 transmittals. 

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll add those 

22 into the current matrix, but I don't have 
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1 those. So I must have overlooked it if I 

2 received it or --

3 MEMBER MUNN: I have Bridgeport --

4 review White Paper April 16th.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Do you want me to 

6 send it to your government emails?

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: To my regular.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Regular email.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

10 MR. KATZ: Only the Board members 

11 use their government emails.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not so good 

13 at it yet.

14 MEMBER MUNN: So this is SC&A's 

15 follow-up that we're looking for, right?

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We're looking 

17 for NIOSH's response on this Bridgeport.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Okay. What I've got 

19 is SC&A's follow-up to NIOSH's responses. 

20 That was sent in April. That's what we're 

21 looking at.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's pretty 
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1 good. You got an SC&A response.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. That's the 

3 document that --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is it a matrix 

5 or a separate --

6 MEMBER MUNN: No, it's a White 

7 Paper.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh.

9 DR. BEHLING: Now, Wanda, what 

10 you're looking at is the most recent White 

11 Paper.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Right. That's what 

13 I was looking at.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Those haven't -

15 -

16 (Simultaneous speakers.)

17 MEMBER MUNN: That's what I was 

18 looking at to begin with and there's supposed 

19 to be something back from NIOSH before that.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Before that, 

21 yes, and that's what I'm not finding. But it 

22 must be out there and I just didn't include it 
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1 in the matrix. I apologize.

2 DR. MAURO: This is John. Where 

3 are we though on this? Right now, has there 

4 been a response to that issue by NIOSH?

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. We're just 

6 trying to -- bear with us.

7 DR. MAURO: Okay. I just wanted 

8 to make sure I wasn't missing something.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Bear with us. 

10 We're just trying to find NIOSH's initial 

11 response.

12 DR. MAURO: Okay.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Just that we 

14 needed to --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Just so I can 

16 get the file and update this matrix and then 

17 we'll let you continue on your at least 

18 preliminary presentation.

19 DR. MAURO: Okay. Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sorry.

21 DR. MAURO: No, that's okay. I 

22 just wanted to be on the same page.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay, this has 

2 that -- this file I'm sending has that 

3 language in it.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Has this 

5 included.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: And it seems to be 

9 just the Bridgeport Brass appendix finding for 

10 this.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So it's not 

12 all.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It's not the 

14 entire matrix.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I won't 

16 have to go through line by line. Okay.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: No, it seems to be 

18 just that.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. Good. 

20 Harshaw -- doesn't that have Harshaw? Doesn't 

21 have the other --

22 MR. FARVER: Harshaw is a 
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1 different entity.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Harshaw is 

3 different than this one ahead of it. What I'm 

4 saying is it just has Bridgeport Brass.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

6 MR. FARVER: Right.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. John, 

8 you guys can continue, I guess, and we're 

9 getting the file now. Stu is sending it.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: It's in the 

11 cyberware.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Go ahead. 

13 John, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

14 DR. MAURO: No problem.

15 The second issue is called the 

16 Correlation Issue. In essence, the site 

17 profile, the exposure matrix, for Bridgeport 

18 Brass, what it did was construct a coworker 

19 model for all the workers was, it pooled the 

20 urine -- no, this is the external now. Sorry. 

21 It pooled all the external dose data for 

22 penetrating and non-penetrating radiation 
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1 together because it didn't really have enough 

2 data to do individual workers. And from that 

3 data they created a distribution and in the 

4 write-up that describes all this and all the 

5 data and we have access to the data it 

6 basically says, what we're going to do is we 

7 pooled all these. I believe there were two 

8 weeks turnaround times, biweekly. Pooled all 

9 the data, made a large number of values from 

10 that of film badge measurements, both 

11 penetrating and non-penetrating and then they 

12 plucked off the upper 95th percentile of that 

13 distribution for penetrating/non-penetrating

14 and said, we're going to use that to assign to 

15 all the workers.

16 Now there's an important point, 

17 however. In their site profile, they 

18 explained that when we did that -- this is 

19 NIOSH speaking -- we used what's called the 

20 correlation approach and in layman's terms the 

21 way I understand it and we'll certainly let 

22 Harry get into a little more detail, it simply 
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1 means that we recognize that some people had 

2 jobs where they were exposed to higher levels 

3 of exposures than other people's jobs. So 

4 what that means is that you can't just pile up 

5 all these two-week changeouts for everybody, 

6 hundreds of numbers, and treat them as if each 

7 one of those individual readouts were 

8 independent of each other. 

9 Reality is they're correlated 

10 because you may have a worker, Worker Number 

11 1, who has 10, 12, 15, 20 readouts and his job 

12 was such that he's at the high end. And to 

13 treat and if you're trying to reconstruct the 

14 dose to a worker you can't just simply assume 

15 each one of these individual measurements are 

16 independent of each other. They're 

17 correlated.

18 So NIOSH explained in their write19 up that, no, we did a sampling using 

20 correlation techniques to come up with the 

21 upper 95th percentile. Harry Chmelynski, our 

22 statistician, who is on the phone, he checked 
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1 that. He took all the data, downloaded it 

2 all, loaded it all up and he ran the sampling 

3 using correlation techniques and using 

4 independent non-correlation techniques and he 

5 was able to match the upper 95th percentile 

6 value when he ran it as non-correlated data.

7 When he ran it as correlated data 

8 he comes up with numbers that are about twice 

9 as high as the numbers recommended and adopted 

10 in the site profile. So we believe that, 

11 though NIOSH states that they use correlated 

12 approach for coming up with their surrogate 

13 number or their default number we believe that 

14 in fact they didn't.

15 Now there is a reason. That's our 

16 story in a nutshell and to get into the 

17 details of it certainly Harry could explain 

18 how you go about doing these types of things. 

19 But NIOSH did respond in the column in the 

20 matrix, but we feel that the response is 

21 nonresponsive. Okay. In other words, it 

22 really didn't address the concern that we 
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1 raise and I guess with that we could turn it 

2 over to NIOSH or if you would like to hear a 

3 little bit more about this correlation/non4 correlation issue Harry certainly could 

5 explain it.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We've talked about 

7 this at another meeting.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we did.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: This all has this 

10 kind of eerie familiarity.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

12 DR. MAURO: No, we did, but right 

13 now the matrix doesn't reflect a new NIOSH 

14 position on this.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. Well, we 

16 haven't provided an additional position on it 

17 and I remember the conversation and I remember 

18 going -- there's a fairly -- as I understand 

19 it, there's a fairly lengthy write-up that 

20 Harry wrote in the appendix or in this 

21 attachment.

22 DR. MAURO: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: In this review 

2 that kind of lays out where we've been --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, at this 

4 point we'll probably let NIOSH look at that.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. We just need 

6 to take care of that.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Sit 

8 down and talk about that.

9 MR. FARVER: And that's in 

10 Appendix B of the White Paper?

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And bring it 

12 back to us. I don't think we need more detail 

13 at this point, John.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I really can't 

15 provide any more update on that.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: But I seem to -- I 

18 remember the conversation.

19 DR. MAURO: Okay. Then we'll move 

20 on and you understand our concerns and there 

21 may be more to the story. But from what you 

22 see, it was your intention to do correlation, 
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1 but you didn't.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. It doesn't 

3 need to go far into the statistics before I 

4 don't understand it anymore, but I recognize 

5 the issue. So, yes, I recall the issue and I 

6 think I can elucidate it to the people on our 

7 side who would have to deal with it.

8 DR. MAURO: Okay. We'll move on.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: If not, I'll give 

11 you a call.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Just one thing 

13 before you continue, John. Stu, did others 

14 get that email?

15 MEMBER MUNN: I got the email.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But it's 

17 encrypted, I think.

18 MEMBER MUNN: It's encrypted, yes.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And we can't 

20 open the file.

21 MEMBER MUNN: I can't open it.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I opened 
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1 it but it's gibberish.

2 (Simultaneous speakers.)

3 MEMBER MUNN: A bunch of ASCIIs.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That's 

5 all you have.

6 MEMBER MUNN: That's all I get.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Seriously. Can 

8 either of you get to your government email?

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I suppose.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: I mean it may not 

11 be worthwhile. I mean we can kind of describe 

12 what's in there.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: As long as I 

14 get them later and update the matrix, I don't 

15 think it's a big deal.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Well --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: John can kind 

18 of read it for me.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: I put your 

20 government email on there.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Because I was 
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1 starting with the government emails. So then 

2 I put both. So you've gotten both.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I can send to 

5 everybody at your government email, your CDC 

6 email.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Okay.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: It could be that 

9 our system is encrypting these things going 

10 outside. I didn't think we did that. I don't 

11 know what happened.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I've heard of 

13 that problem before, but yes.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: It opened okay on 

15 my computer.

16 MEMBER MUNN: I've had it from 

17 time to time, but it opens as --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Just gibberish.

19 MEMBER MUNN: -- your initials are

20 the only thing I can read on there.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. That's 

22 the same with me with me, yes.
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1 MS. BEHLING: I can forward the 

2 file to you if you'd like.

3 MEMBER MUNN: You can?

4 MR. HINNEFELD: That might help.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Try 

6 that.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Great.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you.

9 MEMBER MUNN: Thank you.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, John. 

11 Are you going on to item --

12 DR. MAURO: I'm moving on to 

13 three, but I just want you to say that since 

14 this is a fairly sophisticated statistical 

15 issue, Stu, when you turn this over to your 

16 statisticians, I would encourage a dialogue 

17 between Harry and your statisticians if 

18 they're -- where we may misunderstand what was 

19 done.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

21 DR. MAURO: It might be helpful.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I think 
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1 that would expedite the process.

2 DR. MAURO: Actually, the next 

3 time we get together at least we'll say, yes, 

4 we've had a chance to talk, and certainly if 

5 we have one of those technical calls we'll --

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Just let us 

7 know, yes.

8 DR. MAURO: -- at the work-group 

9 level.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

11 DR. MAURO: Okay. Number 3, I 

12 think this issue is resolved and I'll tell you 

13 what it is. Right there is a generic approach 

14 to calculating the dose from non-penetrating

15 radiation in the exposure matrix for 

16 Bridgeport Brass and we raised Finding number 

17 3, a concern about, what about localized parts 

18 of where people might have been in contact 

19 with their hands and forearms with this 

20 material. There's also this issue of the 

21 particles falling on a person's skin. We 

22 talked about that before. It's a recurring 
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1 theme.

2 But NIOSH's reaction, response, 

3 was -- I think probably all you really could 

4 do is say that this is a very unique and 

5 unusual circumstance, let's say, and when it 

6 occurs they'll deal with it on a case-by-case 

7 basis. For example, let's say a person does 

8 have a claim that has skin cancer on the 

9 forearm where he might have come in contact 

10 with this material, the uranium. And on that 

11 basis NIOSH's position as well, we'll deal 

12 with that when it comes before us.

13 Now this is really a call on the 

14 part of the Work Group whether you'd like a 

15 definitive description of how do you deal with 

16 that special circumstance or we'll just leave 

17 it as is and deal with it when the situation 

18 arises. Because I guess there aren't that 

19 many claims for this facility -- I'm not sure 

20 -- where having a generic approach to dealing 

21 with direct contact and how to deal with that 

22 whether the direct contact is because of 
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1 handling material or because of particles 

2 settling on your arms.

3 DR. BEHLING: Well, John, just a 

4 comment in the context of what you just said.

5 DR. MAURO: Sure.

6 DR. BEHLING: After all, we only 

7 at this point have had a chance to review one 

8 percent of the total number of claims that 

9 have been adjudicated or dose-reconstructed. 

10 So it's not like you were going to see these 

11 cases.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes.

13 DR. BEHLING: So obviously if 

14 there's going to be a remedy, it has to be 

15 more generic because we will not likely see 

16 such a case.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, this is back 

18 to the skin dose in a situation where there's 

19 liable to be skin contamination, but there's 

20 no evidence of skin contamination.

21 DR. MAURO: No, but in this case 

22 it's a little more than that. The nature of 
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1 the work is people handled uranium. It wasn't 

2 a matter of where there was sort of like 

3 grinding and maybe a particle fell on the 

4 skin. Apparently there was -- the nature of 

5 the work was where they very well may have 

6 come in direct contact, their arms, their 

7 hands, with the uranium, the different forms 

8 of uranium. And the dosimeter would not 

9 necessarily pick up that. In other words, the 

10 dosimeter is only going to see the radiation 

11 field created by the beta particles. It's not 

12 going to pick up the fact that someone was in 

13 direct contact with the --

14 DR. BEHLING: And it doesn't have 

15 to be direct contact, John. But the fact is 

16 the skin doses were not monitored. In other 

17 words, extremity doses were not monitored.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes.

19 DR. BEHLING: So there is the 

20 issue of not necessarily having contact or 

21 contamination. But it's the basic issue of 

22 geometry, distance.
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1 DR. MAURO: In effect.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. So if it's 

3 an adjustment for an extremity dose, I mean 

4 that's something that we do I think with some 

5 regularity on dose reconstruction.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: In terms of making 

8 some judgment about what the dose to the 

9 extremities when the cancer is on the 

10 extremities compared to what the badge would 

11 read. I think that's --

12 DR. BEHLING: And that would be --

13 Stu, that would be fine. But I guess what I 

14 took exception to was the notion that I think

15 the response that you submitted was that the 

16 claim was left to the dose reconstructor's 

17 judgment and I always get a little antsy when 

18 I hear that because the dose reconstructors 

19 out in the field are not necessarily people 

20 who have been party to these discussions who 

21 are sensitized to the concern that maybe in 

22 the case of a basal cell carcinoma to the 
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1 forearm that they would have to go and sort of 

2 make a judgment call that would ultimately 

3 prove to be claimant favorable. These people 

4 have not been party to these discussions and 

5 so they would simply look at the shallow dose 

6 as registered by a chest badge and then apply 

7 it to the forearm and assume that that's okay. 

8 And that's not necessarily pointing a finger 

9 at the dose reconstructor. It's just that he 

10 may not be sensitized to the issue as we're 

11 discussing it here.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, okay. I 

13 mean I can -- fine. I don't particularly care 

14 for this response particularly when it says, 

15 general scenario presented doesn't occur 

16 because it could be quite likely all you need 

17 is an extremity dose -- an extremity cancer 

18 and it occurs.

19 So I can find out what kind of 

20 instruction we have on sites and adjusting 

21 badge doses for extremity measurement or badge 

22 measurements to extremity doses. I think 
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1 there must be some guidance out there.

2 MR. FARVER: There is 

3 Mallinckrodt? It's one of those and it has an 

4 adjustment factor in for extremities.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I mean it's 

6 not a question that's unique to Bridgeport 

7 Brass.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

9 MR. FARVER: No, I think it's 

10 unique --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But it should 

12 be proceduralized I think is what --

13 MR. FARVER: It should be applied 

14 more broadly, I would think.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Broadly, yes.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Well, I take 

17 exception to that just on the face of it 

18 simply because the scope of this entire 

19 program is so broad. The number of different 

20 kinds of activities that are covered, the 

21 number of different types of materials that 

22 are covered, the actions that are involved, 
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1 the processes, are innumerable. They just go 

2 on forever. It's very difficult to see how 

3 one can become very generic when you're 

4 talking about such a wide variety of materials 

5 and procedures. How would you even begin to 

6 do that?

7 DR. BEHLING: Can I jump in, 

8 Wanda?

9 MEMBER MUNN: Sure, Hans.

10 DR. BEHLING: It's relatively 

11 simple because you do have a measurement for a 

12 skin dose. But unfortunately here the skin 

13 dose measurement would be that at the chest 

14 level and we can certainly look at a generic 

approach and say we can convert the 7 mg/cm2 15

16 dose that is monitored at the chest level and 

17 translate that to a more or less bounding 

18 value at the extremity level and that has very 

19 little to do with the complexity or the 

20 differences between site A, B, C, D. Those 

21 are basically generic. If you have a skin 

22 dose measurement as monitored by a chest badge 
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1 you should be in the position to say what 

2 might be the dose for people who handle this 

3 material at the extremity level.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: This is a 

5 different question than before. I mean you 

6 have just with your data. 

7 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I'm pretty 

8 confident we do this. But I'll have to figure 

9 out where we put it down.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Where the 

11 guidance is.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: It should be a 

13 broadly applicable guidance.

14 DR. MAURO: Keep in mind that the 

15 kinds of doses that are assigned are 1.8, 2 

16 millirem-hour if we look at the exposure 

17 matrix. If you're in contact with the surface 

18 of uranium metal, it's about 230 millirem19 hour. So I mean it's not a small difference. 

20 That is, by disregarding the possibility that 

21 there was some contact the difference in the 

22 dose rate is enormous between being a foot 
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1 away and being in direct contact with uranium 

2 metal. And for a person that has a skin 

3 cancer, let's say, on his hands or on his 

4 forearms and his job was such that he did come 

5 in direct contact, that changes the whole 

6 picture for him and the film badge rating that 

7 you would have for him would bear no 

8 resemblance to what his actual direct contact 

9 was where the cancer may have occurred. 

10 MR. FARVER: OCAS TIB-0013 has 

11 something very similar. It is special 

12 consideration and dose reconstruction of 

13 energy employees who worked with uranium 

14 metal, powders and residues. And that's the 

15 Mallinckrodt one. And they have shown three 

16 correction factors for extremities. So 

17 probably something similar to that.

18 DR. MAURO: Okay.

19 MR. FARVER: Or just making it 

20 applicable to other sites.

21 DR. MAURO: Okay. Should I move 

22 on?
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Just hold on a 

2 second.

3 DR. MAURO: Okay.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: What was that 

5 TIB? Which?

6 MR. FARVER: OCAS TIB-0013.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: That would not be 

8 an OTIB problem or ORAU TIB. It would just be 

9 the TIB-0013.

10 DR. MAURO: I presume we reviewed 

11 that because we reviewed most of the 

12 procedures.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, you did.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes. Okay.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: I know because I 

16 have a bunch of responses that I have to 

17 provide. I think I actually provided them at 

18 the last Procedures Subcommittee.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay, John. Go 

20 ahead. I'm sorry.

21 DR. MAURO: Okay. We'll move on 

22 to Number 4. Number 4 is something that I'd 
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1 like to turn over to Harry. It's called the 

2 leave one behind or leave one out issue and my 

3 understanding of -- again in layman's terms --

4 would be that when you have a population of 

5 data and it's from a group of workers and you 

6 want to use that data as a surrogate with a 

7 distribution of values and as a surrogate for 

8 another group of workers and you're concerned 

9 about the degree to which that dataset might 

10 or might not be applicable to a different 

11 group, there's a technique called leave one 

12 out. This is something that we never talked 

13 about before. I don't think we have, and it's 

14 interesting. 

15 Harry, could you expand upon that 

16 a little bit more because I think it has such 

17 a tremendous applicability to the surrogate 

18 data issue?

19 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Okay. Basically 

20 this is a technique of cross-validation for 

21 confirming that the model you're building 

22 actually works to predict numbers that you 
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1 haven't seen yet or, in our case, that we will 

2 never see.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Can you speak 

4 up please a little bit?

5 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Okay.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you.

7 MR. CHMELYNSKI: The idea of the 

8 leave one out approach is to cross-validate 

9 the model that's used for the coworker 

10 estimations. Generally, what we do is pull 

11 data together for various job categories, 

12 various facilities and various time periods. 

13 Well, the time period thing we normally cover 

14 by doing them for each time period. But often 

15 we're forced to combine data from workers in 

16 different job categories or areas.

17 And in order to determine how well 

18 the model we build from that data works for 

19 the coworkers who do not have data is to leave 

20 out a subpopulation from the data that we have 

21 like, for instance, all the furnace operators, 

22 leave them out and re-estimate the model and 
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1 then use that model to predict their 

2 exposures. We already know what they are. So 

3 we're sort of simulating the case where we 

4 have missing data.

5 And we do this over and over again 

6 holding out different groups of workers which 

7 are identifiable subpopulations and we do it 

8 repeatedly until we get a feel for how well 

9 this model, if it were estimated on this set 

10 of data, how well it works for those other 

11 workers. And I don't see anything like that 

12 being done to support the coworker models. 

13 Generally, we assume all these workers are 

14 interchangeable.

15 So that's the gist of it is to 

16 estimate the model based on all the data 

17 except one group and then use the model to 

18 predict that group and do it for the various 

19 groups that you've included in the aggregate 

20 data.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm trying to 

22 understand. Are you proposing that NIOSH 
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1 should validate and this is one technique that 

2 they could use?

3 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Yes.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh.

5 MR. CHMELYNSKI: The coworker 

6 model should be validated using some 

7 resampling technique of this sort.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: So, in other 

9 words, you remove a subgroup from the 

10 population from the model with the remaining 

11 population, does your model as generated in 

12 that fashion predict the doses of the subgroup 

13 you left out?

14 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Right.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: So, in this 

16 instance, I only get on this because of 

17 furnace operators. In my judgment if a person 

18 was a furnace operator and worked as a furnace 

19 operator for their entirety, they are probably 

20 at the upper end of the exposed people. And I 

21 mean just from using that example if you 

22 remove them it would seem like the model 
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1 wouldn't predict their exposure.

2 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Well, I agree. 

3 But it gives us a measure of how far off it is 

4 for different workers, different groups of 

5 workers.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: If we randomly 

7 select a subpopulation to remove.

8 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Well, one of the 

9 techniques here is just to remove the workers 

10 one at a time and do it systematically until 

11 we've done them all one at a time.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Right. I think 

13 there are only like 20-some odd workers in the 

14 dataset, right?

15 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Right. In some 

16 datasets, they're not very big.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

18 MR. CHMELYNSKI: In others, we 

19 have thousands of data points and then one 

20 would extrapolate this method to be what I 

21 described just previously which is to leave 

22 out one group of workers.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

2 MR. CHMELYNSKI: Rather than one 

3 worker at a time.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you're -- I 

5 mean I guess I would say SC&A's concerned that 

6 the model needs to be validated and this is 

7 one approach NIOSH is -- it's just to NIOSH I 

8 guess to decide how or if they need to 

9 validate the model.

10 DR. MAURO: In fact that was the 

11 response in the matrix that they would look at 

12 -- that NIOSH said that this sounds like 

13 something we should look into.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: We even said that.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I didn't 

16 have -- I'm still trying to --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm concerned that 

18 I think if there are serious questions about 

19 how we're going to proceed here we'll just 

20 have our staff call Dr. Chmelynski.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I agree.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: And we can do 
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1 that, right, to get clarification that has to 

2 happen with the subcommittee?

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. I think --

5 I don't have to understand it that well then. 

6 But I would like to have at least a chance to 

7 explain it to the people I have to explain it 

8 to.

9 DR. MAURO: I will move on. Okay. 

10 Our last item, Item Number 5, Finding 5. We 

11 uncovered what we believed to be a hundredfold 

12 error in one of the calculations in the 

13 exposure matrix and I believe NIOSH's response 

14 is that they agree and that they're going to 

15 fix it.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, I think we'll 

17 fix it when we fix the other things when we 

18 come to resolution on the other finding. I 

19 don't see us fixing it in the meantime when 

20 there are several other things that still need 

21 to be fixed.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.
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1 DR. BEHLING: John, that brings us 

2 to the new issue.

3 DR. MAURO: The new issue, I'm 

4 sorry.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Hold on one 

6 second. Let me catch up for a second, John.

7 DR. MAURO: Okay. I mean, the 

8 specifics; it has to do with the residual 

9 activity on surfaces and using that residual 

10 activity on surfaces to reconstruct doses to 

11 the contaminated surfaces. There seems to be 

12 a --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I've got 

14 it. I was just catching up on the 

15 documentation.

16 DR. MAURO: Okay.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And NIOSH 

18 agrees and we'll modify the site matrix, 

19 right?

20 DR. BEHLING: Yes, specifically, 

21 Mark, the issues that the error exists in 

22 Table 5-1 which has the daily intake of 6.66 
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E-2 1 and of course if you look at that page on 

2 the 0030 on page 73 you can quickly grasp the 

3 error because on the top of the page it 

4 basically identifies an inhalation intake for 

5 a year of 2,540 picocuries and if you divide 

6 that by 365 days you end up with approximately 

7 7 picocuries per day which is a hundredfold 

8 higher than the value cited in Table 5-1.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Alright. 

10 We've got the issue.

11 DR. BEHLING: Yes, but when I 

12 looked at that I realized. I said, how did 

13 this number come to pass, and this is 

14 explained in Section 3 of my White Paper and 

15 what I came to conclude was the following. On 

16 page 4 of my White Paper, if you can quickly 

17 follow it, I basically devised the value that 

18 I said is a correct value that should be 

19 introduced in Table 5-1. But what's bothered 

20 me regarding that particular value of the 

21 revised value of 7 picocuries per day which is 

22 a hundredfold higher than the value in Table 
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1 5-1 is the fact that it is based on a 

resuspension factor of – 1 E-6 2 per meter is the 

3 resuspension value. That's how that value 

4 came to pass.

5 And if you read the White Paper, 

6 Section 3 on the bottom of page four, you 

7 start to understand how that value was 

8 derived. And what it turns out to be is that 

9 if you look at that value, you end up with a 

10 number that is actually lower in 1961 than a 

11 measured empirical value that was taken 15 

12 years later. And, of course, what that would 

13 assume either the measured value 15 years 

14 later is in error or our assumption about a 

15 resuspension factor is clearly an error, and 

16 the reason I suspect the resuspension value 

17 cannot be taken seriously is because it was 

18 void of any depletion value and, of course, in 

19 other documents that NIOSH has used they use a 

20 depletion value of one percent per day. So 

21 you have a myriad of inconsistency by which 

22 that original number of 7 picocuries per day 
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1 was derived.

2 And you can read through the 

3 write-up on pages four, five and six to come 

4 to that conclusion because it's based on a 

5 series of measurements including empirical 

6 data and reported values. And I think we've 

7 discussed it at NIOSH and I think the last 

8 time, in addition to Stu, Jim Neton was there 

9 and they kind of recognized this error and 

10 said, well, this is obviously something we 

11 need to address. But as far as I know, that 

12 has not formally been addressed by NIOSH.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Correct.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And is this a -

15 DR. MAURO: This is a new item.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The only 

17 question I have here is this broader than just 

18 the modifying the same matrix just to say -- I 

mean I know we talked about the 1 E-6 19 for the 

20 suspension factor.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, if we want 

22 to throw that in, I mean, there's an issue on 
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1 the table on that.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Right. 

3 We've got that covered I think. Yes. 

4 Alright.

5 DR. MAURO: Well, with that, I 

6 think we've -- let's see. Are there any more 

7 -- hold on. I think that's it for the issues 

8 related to Bridgeport Brass, you know, with 

9 the addition of Hans' new item, the degree to 

10 which you want to work that new item into that 

matrix or because it's fundamentally a 10-6 11

12 problem which of course we've been struggling 

13 with for a long time.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

15 DR. MAURO: However you'd like to 

16 proceed. But I think that does it and you 

17 know we could move on to Harshaw if you'd 

18 like.

MR. HINNEFELD: If it is a 10-6 19

20 issue I guess that it wouldn't hurt to capture 

21 it here. I mean I don't think we'd need to 

22 talk about it anymore because it's out there 
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1 to be resolved.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I can add 

3 it on as Finding 6 -- Attachment 1 Finding 6. 

4 And I'll add that one.

5 DR. BEHLING: Actually, what can 

6 be done is to somehow look at 1975 empirical 

7 data and then work backwards to devise a 

8 resuspension value that now matches the number 

9 that was defined in '61 in the surface 

10 contamination. And so you can in essence work 

11 backwards and devise the appropriate 

12 resuspension value that's one we can easily 

13 expect that is now consistent with empirical 

14 measurements.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think we 

16 need to add this on because it might be also a 

17 site specific issue, you know.

18 DR. MAURO: It goes both ways. I 

19 agree. That's a good point.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

21 DR. MAURO: Good point, Hans.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. I'll 
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1 capture that as a separate finding, Finding 

2 Number 6, in the matrix.

3 DR. MAURO: Alright.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. You want 

5 to start on Harshaw.

6 DR. MAURO: Sure.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 DR. MAURO: Okay. Let's see. Let 

9 me just get myself oriented. Okay. The 

10 Harshaw issue Number 1 that's raised here --

11 by the way, Hans also had submitted a White 

12 Paper in response.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: So please, Hans jump 

15 in because there is a process at work here 

16 where we originally identified an issue. 

17 NIOSH provided a response to the issue and 

18 then Hans provided a report, a White Paper, 

19 dated April 2009 in response to NIOSH's 

20 response. So there's a process.

21 But it's probably good to start 

22 and get the 30-second sound bite. The first 
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1 issue has to do with the exposure matrix for 

2 Harshaw. Bioassay data was compiled and the 

3 approach taken to use that matrix was to go 

4 with the median of the log-normal distribution 

5 to assign that median dose to workers and as 

6 we've been concerned with on many occasions in 

7 the past when you're doing that automatically 

8 it's often a problem. And a consideration 

9 should be given to a lot of different 

10 approaches to be used, the median itself, the 

11 full distribution, using the mean or the 95th 

12 percentile confidence level of the mean or 

13 using the 95th percentile confidence level 

14 itself or the 95th percentile level itself. 

15 These are all ways of using your dataset in a 

16 coworker model in a way that is tailored to 

17 the worker and to try to factor in the 

18 worker's job into consideration and not just 

19 simply go with either the median or the full 

20 distribution. So that was Issue Number 1.

21 DR. BEHLING: Well, John, I think 

22 it needs further explanation.
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1 DR. MAURO: Please do. Yes. 

2 Sure.

3 DR. BEHLING: Let me sort of give 

4 you a different perspective of what the 

5 concern here is. I'm very much in agreement 

6 with the basic guidance as established in 

7 OTIB-0019 where you normally assume that if 

8 you have a population of workers and you 

9 monitor the most highly exposed individual 

10 group of individuals and sort of reduce the 

11 monitoring of lesser exposed people and maybe 

12 not monitor some or at the very low end of the 

13 spectrum. And on the basis of the higher 

14 exposed people you sort say, well, that really 

represents our 95th 15 percentile and if you were 

16 in the lesser exposed people then the 50th 

17 percentile will more than adequately cover our 

18 basis. And if you're not monitored at all, it 

19 can reasonably be assumed that the 50th 

20 percentile will apply. But that would -- all 

21 those things we would agree with or I would 

22 agree with if that, in fact, was the 
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1 monitoring program.

2 But as you see if you look at the 

3 White Paper on page number 3, Section 3.1, 

4 actually on page 4, I provide verbatim 

5 statements that were taken where we sort of 

6 look at this whole program of monitoring and 

7 realize maybe they didn't monitor all the 

8 higher-exposed people as you see in our quote 

9 from section 5.3.1.2 where it says sergeant 

10 and gives a date of 1950. Meanwhile it 

11 referred to a previous lot of units and also 

12 requested Harshaw institute a sampling program 

13 on a running basis to sample about 100 workers 

14 per month and in the next paragraph we talk 

15 about stated 200 workers were subject to 

16 urinalysis. And then at the bottom of that 

17 paragraph Harshaw provided the AEC an estimate 

18 of several hundred such people that previous 

19 had been exposed for more than a year.

20 What to me that suggests is that 

21 you're only taking a graph sample of people 

22 and they may not necessarily be all highest-
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1 exposed individuals. It may be a cross 

2 section which means that you may have very 

3 highly exposed people who were perhaps not 

4 monitored because the sample didn't 

5 necessarily intend to sample only the 

6 maximally exposed individuals. Under that 

7 circumstance, you will have a 95th percentile 

8 person in terms of true exposure who would not 

9 be monitored. But in the course of using a 

10 coworker model he would qualify for the 50th 

11 percentile. And I think that's at the heart 

12 of the concern here.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So it's a 

14 familiar issue, yes.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

16 DR. MAURO: And by the way that 

17 covers Issue Number 2. I mean that's also 

18 finding -- in effect what we're talking about 

19 is both Findings 1 and 2.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

21 DR. MAURO: Because they're 

22 linked.
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1 DR. BEHLING: Yes, and like I said 

2 in the same issue we talk about people who 

3 were not monitored being thrown in the same 

4 bucket as people whose monitoring data are not 

5 available, illegible or are inadequate. They 

6 are two different populations if you are a 

7 95th percentile high-end worker and somehow or 

8 other your records were lost. You should not 

9 put him in the same category as a person who 

10 we know for a fact was clearly not monitored 

11 and perhaps and hopefully so because he was 

12 not necessarily in need of such monitoring 

13 because he was an office worker or only 

14 occasionally was exposed. So the lumping of 

15 people whose records were missing with people 

16 who were not monitored is perhaps an unjust 

17 approach to treating those two individuals.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I think 

19 we're in listening mode mainly right now 

20 because NIOSH hasn't responded to these, 

21 right?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: We sent the 
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1 response.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, you did 

3 send a response.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, back in 

5 January.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. Is 

7 that in the matrix, too? Or I'm still waiting 

8 for that?

9 MR. HINNEFELD: It's not in the 

10 matrix. No, this was a finding and response 

11 attached to that.

12 MS. BEHLING: Excuse me. Just one 

13 second, Mark. I did send you and the others -

14 - I hope I got everyone the matrix. I tried 

15 sending it twice.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I didn't get 

17 anything. Did you send it to the CDC address?

18 MS. BEHLING: No, I didn't.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh, okay.

20 MS. BEHLING: No, I sent it to --

21 did anyone in the room get it?

22 MEMBER CLAWSON: I didn't, Kathy. 
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1 This is Brad.

2 MS. BEHLING: Okay.

3 MEMBER MUNN: You just sent it, 

4 right?

5 MS. BEHLING: No, I sent it at the 

6 start of this conversation and I just now sent 

7 NIOSH's response to the Harshaw also.

8 MEMBER MUNN: I have three 

9 messages from you.

10 MR. KATZ: I received it.

11 MS. BEHLING: Okay.

12 MEMBER MUNN: I haven't tried 

13 downloading any of them. That's the proof of 

14 the pudding.

15 MS. BEHLING: Yes. Mike and Ted, 

16 I apologize. I did not send you the 

17 Bridgeport Brass matrix. I was in the process 

18 of doing it. I apologize.

19 DR. MAURO: Let me add a little 

20 bit more to the response, the original 

21 response.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't have 
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1 anything yet by the way.

2 DR. MAURO: We have responses from 

3 NIOSH and the responses I would say are very 

4 much in keeping with our thinking mainly you 

5 have all the data. You have the means. You 

6 have the 95th percentile. You have all the 

7 data. And in the response it's basically 

8 stated that the dose reconstructor has the 

9 wherewithal to use that dataset intelligently. 

10 But there really is no mention made of the 

11 point that Hans pointed out, namely that there 

12 seems to be lots of evidence that the data 

13 that you do have does not represent the upper 

14 end data and it makes a big difference on how 

15 you use your model, your exposure matrix. If 

16 you've come into it saying, no, the data we 

17 have is evidence that it represents the high18 end people only or, the evidence is no, it 

19 looks like it's more the type of data which is 

20 a cross section of all workers and perhaps 

21 does not represent the high-end people but in 

22 fact may actually, if you're just randomly 
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1 picking people, you may actually emphasize and 

2 the distribution may capture because most of 

3 the people are not exposed and if you just 

4 randomly pick people. So there's a problem in 

5 just grabbing the data you have and saying, 

6 okay. Here we have a -- and making a 

7 distribution and then using that somehow as 

8 your method if you don't really have a full 

9 appreciation of what that data sample came 

10 from.

11 You could almost envision the 

12 circumstance if you randomly pick people just 

13 so that you get an idea of what the kinds of 

14 exposures were. This goes back to earlier 

15 days. You may just happen to grab -- Most of 

16 the people you grab may be people with low-end 

17 exposures because usually the large number of 

18 people get very little exposure and only a 

19 handful get very high exposures and if you 

20 were doing just a cross section of workers 

21 your distribution is going to look like the 

22 exposures are fairly low and in any event it 
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1 goes toward thinking a little bit more about 

2 the data that you have and how best to use it 

3 to build the coworker model. I think that 

4 that kind of thing is needed here.

5 DR. BEHLING: Also before you go 

6 on, John, there is additional discussion 

7 regarding Finding 1. Under Section 3.2 in the 

8 White Paper that you have on page five, we 

9 also identified a new finding and again it's 

10 not so new because I think it's also been 

11 discussed at previous Work Group meetings and 

12 that is the issue of Friday and Monday morning 

13 timing involved for doing bioassays.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes.

15 DR. BEHLING: And I think on pages 

16 five and six I briefly discuss the issue that 

17 if you're dealing with something that is very, 

18 very soluble, the difference between a Friday 

19 sample that's at the end of a work week versus 

20 a Monday can be as high as a tenfold 

21 difference in terms of what you will find in 

22 the urine and therefore assign as a data point 
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1 for entry into the IMBA program.

2 Now the point here is that we have 

3 discussed this in the past before and people 

4 have always said well, you know the people --

5 we have dates on these individuals and we can 

6 determine whether or not this is a Friday or a 

7 Monday morning. But the truth is when people 

8 work on a shift rotation, they may get two 

9 days off that may represent Tuesday and 

10 Wednesday or something like that and when we 

11 see a bioassay that occurs two days after 

12 their last exposure, it may not necessarily be 

13 a Monday. But it's still necessarily termed a 

14 Monday morning. I think it has become more or 

15 less a term that has to be interpreted in 

16 proportion to what it really represents for a 

17 worker who is on a rotating shift. So there 

18 is still the issue of how do we deal with the 

19 time interval that may be a 48-hour hiatus 

20 that will potentially underestimate the actual 

21 body burden for a highly soluble material and 

22 therefore underestimate the exposure that IMBA 
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1 assumes represents an end of the shift urine 

2 sample.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes, that's not 

4 captured in this write-up here. But it is 

5 captured in Hans's report, you know, White 

6 Paper, and as you know this is something that 

7 we're dealing with on Y-12 and it's something 

8 I guess that's across the board. But I know 

9 we're paying a lot of attention to it on Y-12. 

10 And I think the interesting part 

11 of this whole issue is that I think everyone 

12 agrees that if in fact we're dealing with Type 

13 F and Type M and in fact there was the urine 

14 sample deliberately collected after a two-day 

15 hiatus, there is a need for an adjustment. 

16 Everyone agrees. I think there's general 

17 agreement on all sides that this is the case.

18 The real question is, though, was 

19 that in fact the case, namely, that it was 

20 routine to have this two-day hiatus. We have 

21 evidence at least from our interviews from the 

22 Y-12 people that that was in fact the case. 
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1 That is, it was standard practice to wait two 

2 days, and I believe in talking to Jim about 

3 this he also agreed that in the early years 

4 that was, you know, they did that on purpose 

5 because they were not so much interested in 

6 the rapidly clearing material as they are with 

7 the long-term body burden of, let's say, Type 

8 S in the body.

9 So we have an interesting problem 

10 here is if you have a site where Type M or 

11 Type F is -- or a job category and you have 

12 that practice you're going to miss the dose 

13 and we've gotten the numbers. Joyce wrote a 

14 White Paper on this -- there are so many White 

15 Papers -- showing quantitatively how much of a 

16 difference there is, and, if I remember, we 

17 were talking factors of two or three or four 

18 at that time.

19 DR. BEHLING: No, it's as much as 

20 ten, John.

21 DR. MAURO: As much as ten. Okay.

22 DR. BEHLING: Look at page six 
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1 where I actually take a quote where they 

2 looked at people at two different time frames 

3 and for uranium hexafluoride, a highly soluble 

4 material, that two-day hiatus would actually 

5 reduce the urine excretion rate by a factor of 

6 ten.

7 DR. MAURO: There you go. That 

8 would be a Type F?

9 DR. BEHLING: Yes.

10 DR. MAURO: Okay.

11 DR. BEHLING: So for facilities if 

12 you have a very highly insoluble that two-day 

13 interval will make little or not difference.

14 DR. MAURO: Right.

15 DR. BEHLING: But for hexafluoride 

16 or a very soluble material, the difference 

17 between a Friday and Monday morning or, more 

18 correctly, a two-day hiatus will introduce a 

19 tenfold error if the IMBA assumption is that 

20 this is the end of the work day kind of urine 

21 sample.

22 DR. MAURO: But I do believe 
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1 technically we are all in agreement that this 

2 is an issue. The only question is was this 

3 practice of a two-day hiatus widespread.

4 DR. BEHLING: Yes, in some cases, 

5 John, I even quote that was a directive given 

6 by the AEC at the time.

7 DR. MAURO: Yes.

8 DR. BEHLING: And so they had very 

9 little choice but to conform. And 

10 unfortunately for very highly soluble material 

11 and if IMBA doesn't take that into 

12 consideration you will actually underestimate 

13 the inhalation intake by as much as a factor 

14 of 10.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. We have

16 the issue.

17 DR. MAURO: Okay.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I don't 

19 think that -- I'm not getting any of these 

20 documents, but I don't think you need to time 

21 to --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Well, we 
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1 prepared responses. Apparently, it didn't get 

2 to anyone.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

4 DR. MAURO: Do you have -- I mean 

5 I would be interested in --

6 MR. HINNEFELD: I can summarize 

7 what --

8 DR. MAURO: -- a 30 second sound 

9 bite. Yes.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it's that 

12 the OTIB-0019 doesn't explicitly require the 

13 50th percentile be used. It kind of gives 

14 instructions on how to derive the 50th 

15 percentile and 84 of them from that can get 

16 essentially a description of your 

17 distribution. And let's see. Some of these 

18 need to be site profiles with assigned intakes 

19 based on the 95th percentile, but it's because 

20 there were very limited monitoring data. So 

21 in cases where there were very limited 

22 monitoring data, we use the 95th percentile. 
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1 That's intended to compensate for the 

2 possibility that highest exposed workers may 

3 have been missed or at least there can be some 

4 fraction of them.

5 For instance, if you sampled 

6 representatively from the population and you 

7 had unmonitored, highly exposed people, they 

8 should absolutely be at the higher percentile.

9 And it just doesn't really draw 

10 any conclusions. Okay. I see. NIOSH 

11 determined that sufficient data existed for 

12 Harshaw sites. So the conclusion, I guess, 

13 from this response and the arguing point is --

14 is NIOSH's conclusion well founded that 

15 there's adequate data from Harshaw that it is 

16 broad and broadly representative and I guess 

17 in which case you would in general use the 

18 50th percentile with an eye out for highly 

19 exposed people in which case you'd use the 

20 95th.

21 So we can revisit this further, 

22 but I mean that's what the thing says. This 
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1 response does not get into the two-day off 

2 sampling.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. This is 

4 separate.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: When we've 

6 discussed that in the Procedures Subcommittee, 

7 I think we, from our opinion, left it at if we 

8 find evidence that in fact the samples were 

9 predominantly or exclusively taken with the 

10 two-day off requirement, two-day interval, 

11 that an adjustment needs to be made, and our 

12 point at Y-12 was where is the evidence for 

13 that, that was consistent, that that was 

14 always done. You know, in my experience, the 

15 samples can't sit around for very long without 

16 deteriorating and therefore screwing up the 

17 analysis. So the lab would not collect them 

18 all on Monday and run them through the week. 

19 The lab did not have the capacity to run all 

20 the samples on Monday. They needed to run 

21 them through the week. So they were collected 

22 through the week.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But was it 

2 always after two days off? That's Hans's 

3 question.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And so our 

5 point is, where is the evidence?

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Where is the 

7 evidence?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Where is the 

9 evidence that the samples were always or 

10 predominantly taken after two days off?

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think 

12 always, but I think he's suggesting that 

13 there's at least some directives that are --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Certainly. I'm 

15 old enough to remember. I'm old enough to 

16 remember when, that you wanted a two-day 

17 sample because it's easier to interpret.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Maybe 

19 it's not something that you apply for all time 

20 periods. But if there is a correction for 

21 early years.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: For some period of 
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1 time, yes.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: So I guess that's 

4 where that discussion kind of needs to go.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: And then from this 

7 I think we'll just have to -- I think the 

8 question is for the Harshaw data is it a 

9 complete enough set and is there reason to 

10 believe that it's representative? And does in 

11 fact the OTIB give instruction that for people 

12 with jobs that appear to be highly exposed 

13 that you should not use the 50th percentile if 

14 you have this database that's representative 

15 of the entire population? So I think that's -

16 DR. MAURO: What I'm hearing is 

17 that we agree in principle. You know, I mean, 

18 we have come to a philosophical understanding 

19 that, yes, there are these challenges to the 

20 dose reconstructor and, you know, we agreed 

21 there is a right way to do this and how to do 

22 that. It's just not all articulated in the 
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1 exposure matrix.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. And that's -

3 - I mean clearly because of the number of 

4 findings it's very likely that some things are 

5 going to have to be changed in the site 

6 profile, and that would be one of them. You 

7 know, some articulation of why we think what 

8 we are proposing is the right way to do it.

9 DR. MAURO: I'll move onto finding 

10 number three. We expressed some concern about 

11 the exposure matrix with respect to radon 

12 exposures. You folks built a coworker model 

13 for radon exposures at Harshaw drawing from 

14 data that came from Mallinckrodt as a 

15 surrogate, and we reviewed that data, and we 

16 noticed that some of the measurements, the 

17 higher measurements, from Mallinckrodt did not 

18 make it into your surrogate database to build 

19 your coworker model. But then you folks 

20 answered that you did that deliberately 

21 because the higher numbers came from very 

22 specific operations at locations and types of 
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1 ore that just didn't exist at Harshaw. 

2 And taking that on face value 

3 which we certainly believe, I'm going to 

4 recommend that we agree with your answer and 

5 that your coworker model is fine given that 

6 answer. We did not check, you know, that in 

7 fact there are these different kinds of -- I 

8 forget the types, the names, of the rooms 

9 where these activities took place. There were 

10 certain rooms where these higher levels were 

11 experienced. Yes, the Scalehouse sampling 

12 room and the drum storage outside of Building 

13 115. These are the places in Mallinckrodt 

14 where the high levels were observed but were 

15 not used when building the coworker model for 

16 Harshaw. And we're accepting on face value 

17 that those locations were in fact unique to 

18 Mallinckrodt and were appropriately excluded. 

19 That being the case, we accept your answer.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Excellent.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Having not seen 

22 the NIOSH response I guess I could accept that 
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1 in good faith as well.

2 DR. MAURO: Yes. I don't know why 

3 I have it, but that's --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

5 DR. MAURO: It's a very long 

6 response. It actually goes on for about three 

7 pages. Well, you know the columns are long 

8 and skinny. But there's about three full 

9 pages of a two inch column addressing this 

10 matter. It looks like maybe two pages 

11 explaining in essence what I just said and it 

12 certainly seems to be a reasonable answer.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Why 

14 don't you move onto the next one then? I 

15 accept it, too. I think that's reasonable.

16 DR. MAURO: Okay. The next is 

17 finding 4. Our finding was NIOSH needs to 

18 provide more detailed guidance on the 

19 reconstruction of doses to extremities. This 

20 is an extremity issue again. I have to say 

21 I'm going to pass the buck over to Hans. Is 

22 there anything about this that is uniquely 
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1 different than what we talked about before?

2 DR. BEHLING: No, other than, 

3 again, the statement that bothers me a little 

4 bit is that we can do this, but at the same 

5 time in a TBD you do see statements that 

6 suggest that there is, and I quote on page 

7 eight of the White Paper, you will see there 

8 are quotations there. It was taken from the 

9 TBD. And those quotations acknowledge some of 

10 the difficulties especially in your early 

11 years regarding the ability to really provide 

12 some kind of an assessment of extremity doses 

13 and at the bottom it says and I write in 

14 section 7 of the Harshaw site profile 

15 Annotation Number 25 states that not enough 

16 information is available to formulate a site 

17 specific method for calculating extremity 

18 dose. And again, I don't know what to do with 

19 that when you have the situation where a 

20 person's exposure to the extremities is 

21 critical in assessing a claim.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: That's kind of the 
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1 same finding as early, right?

2 DR. MAURO: Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Needs some 

4 general, maybe broadly applicable guidance.

5 DR. MAURO: Would you like me to 

6 move on?

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I just got 

8 these emails now. So I was looking at that.

9 DR. MAURO: Okay.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So where do we 

11 stand on that, Stu? Is that something --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I think it's the 

13 same. It sounds like much the same, and the 

14 specific information for any given site might 

15 be slightly different wherever available.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: But there needs to 

18 be some sort of general understanding of how 

19 you're going to adjust doses, extremity doses, 

20 in situations of uranium handling plants that 

21 I'm familiar with where chances are you are in 

22 close proximity with your hands on the piece 
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1 for at least some portion of it. You don't 

2 actually lift it because it's too heavy. But 

3 your hands could be on it. Usually everybody 

4 I knew wore gloves when they did that, but the 

5 geometry is still the same.

6 MEMBER MUNN: So is NIOSH going to 

7 take a look at that?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I missed number 

10 3 then maybe.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I think number 3 

12 was the radon one. I think this was the one 

13 we were discussing.

14 DR. MAURO: Yes. And our 

15 recommendation is that we accept their 

16 finding.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: On number 3 or 

18 number 2?

19 DR. MAURO: Three, the radon one. 

20 Which is that?

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. The radon 

22 one is 3.
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1 DR. MAURO: Yes.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes, radon was 3 and 

4 we're recommending accepting. It's certainly 

5 -- Mark, you may want to take a look at that 

6 write-up and agree to what you want and follow 

7 up, certainly. But as far as we're concerned 

8 that argument seems to be sound.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Well, 

10 I'll put down that SC&A is in agreement with 

11 NIOSH's response.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I would 

14 like to look at that especially since we've 

15 done so much with radon models lately, you 

16 know.

17 DR. MAURO: No, I understand.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And surrogate 

19 data. There's no data for Harshaw at all, 

20 correct?

21 DR. MAURO: I don't know if that's 

22 true.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I don't 

2 know.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I'd like to 

5 know. I mean this is kind of important from 

6 the surrogate data standpoint, too.

7 DR. MAURO: Yes.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I'll put 

9 down that SC&A is in agreement at least.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes. Our only 

11 concern, when we looked at this, the fact that 

12 they used Mallinckrodt as a surrogate for 

13 Harshaw didn't disturb us very much. The only 

14 thing that disturbed us is that they were 

15 selective in what they included and what they 

16 didn't until they explained why.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I understand

18 that part.

19 DR. MAURO: But you're right. I 

20 mean we did not do any kind of detailed 

21 analysis of whether or not it makes sense to 

22 use Mallinckrodt for Harshaw. We sort of 
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1 accepted that, given the nature of the work 

2 they did at Harshaw and the potential for high 

3 radon exposures.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I guess that 

5 would be the issue. I mean I would think this 

6 goes back to Jim Neton's sort of can't get 

7 higher than Mallinckrodt sort of approach for 

8 radon.

9 DR. MAURO: Yes.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Which is 

11 probably true. But I mean I don't know. You 

12 have a lot of other factors as we all know now 

13 --

14 DR. MAURO: Yes.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- related to 

16 radon exposure.

17 DR. MAURO: No, I understand.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So I'll 

19 put this agreement but with that --

20 DR. MAURO: With that proviso or 

21 whatever.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: At least look 
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1 at the response. Yes.

2 DR. MAURO: Yes.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And what did we 

4 do with number 2 then, John? I'm sorry.

5 DR. MAURO: Two.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Number 2 seems to 

7 be like a 95th percentile question but on 

8 external doses, whereas number 1 was for 

9 internal.

10 DR. MAURO: Yes. They're the --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So both are 

12 related.

13 DR. MAURO: They're related, yes.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: And we've sent a 

16 response on that, Mark. You can take a look 

17 at that, and I don't know that we need to go 

18 through it very much here.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. For this 

20 --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: But I think the 

22 fundamental finding is that there ought to be
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1 some sort of direction about in what 

2 circumstances are you interested in using the 

3 95th percentile.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: As opposed to this 

6 completely open-ended and just say, well, that 

7 option is available to the dose reconstructor. 

8 That's sort of our thought.

9 DR. MAURO: Well, but I want to 

10 emphasize the idea that the data you're 

11 starting with also. It's not just the matter 

12 of saying oh, this worked.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 DR. MAURO: It's also the data 

15 itself, whether or not it was selected to be 

16 high end.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we got it.

18 DR. MAURO: You got that. So 

19 there are two parts to it.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Alright. 

21 And then you were just finishing up number 4, 

22 and I think Stu said you have to follow up on 
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1 that, the extremity stuff. Right?

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, there's 

3 extremity finding early, right?

4 DR. BEHLING: And just to comment. 

5 I guess the focus is really one of the 

6 guidance given in the TBD that says go to 

7 Tables B-5 through B-8 for data that may be 

8 usable. And I looked at that data and I said 

9 God, I hope -- I wouldn't want to be a dose 

10 reconstructor who's burdened with that kind of 

11 diffuse guidance. It's not very specific and 

12 leaves an awful lot of interpretation to the 

13 dose reconstructor to make a decision as to 

14 how to assign doses based on that information 

15 in Table B-5 through B-8.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. That was on 

17 finding number 4, right?

18 DR. BEHLING: Yes. And we can go 

19 to 5 because, again, it's somewhat related. 

20 It is, again, an issue of the film badges 

21 especially in their early years for a system 

22 for which we have little or no data in terms 
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1 of how was the badge assigned and how was it 

2 calibrated. Was the calibration one in which 

3 a photon energy was used that's obviously 

4 appropriate for the facility, et cetera, et 

5 cetera? But all that may or may not be 

6 something that we can even address at this 

7 late in the day.

8 But there was one particular issue 

9 that did strike me, and that goes to the 

10 center of page nine in my white report and I 

11 quote something. There was a time early on 

12 apparently where someone says, you know, do we 

13 really want to even bother monitoring these 

14 people and we're really using the film badge 

15 as a security badge and there was a back and 

16 forth. Ultimately, I guess the health 

17 physicists prevailed in saying, no; we will 

18 use the dosimeter in combination with a 

19 security badge.

20 And one of the things I guess in 

21 days past we discussed on behalf of other 

22 facilities when that was done often times the 
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1 open window was covered up and I think that's 

2 really the second half of this issue about can 

3 we really trust any dosimetry data if in fact 

4 for the early years that dosimeter also served 

5 a secondary purpose as a security badge. And 

6 in some instances we know that that involved 

7 covering up the open window, meaning we don't 

8 really have a good assessment of the beta 

9 component as acknowledged on the bottom of 

10 page nine. But it's something we may or may 

11 not be able to resolve.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it depends on 

13 what badge design they were using and what 

14 calibration they were using.

15 DR. MAURO: And that's basically 

16 the question that's raised in our finding 

17 number 5. Yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

19 DR. MAURO: You know, as a think 

20 piece, too, when you use your film badge, in 

21 other words, if you issue a security badge, 

22 and accompanying that is also your film badge, 
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1 it effectively means everybody on site will 

2 have a film badge. And when you think about 

3 it we also know that most people on a site 

4 don't get any exposure.

5 And now you have this population 

6 of data from film badges. All of a sudden you 

7 have a population of data. Now if everybody 

8 was monitored -- I mean it was given to 

9 everybody -- then you could reconstruct the 

10 doses for each person. You don't have to have 

11 a coworker model.

12 But I guess what was disturbing me 

13 is that if you do have a large amount of data, 

14 but for some reason that data represents a 

15 cross section of workers where the vast 

16 majority of them did not get any exposure 

17 you're in a very interesting situation on 

18 whether you could use that data as a coworker 

19 model, you know, and apply it to workers who 

20 did get exposures.

21 I mean I want to emphasize the 

22 importance of that because we've been running 
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1 into that time and again. You know, you've 

2 pooled your data and then you sample from it. 

3 And on face value, it sounds like whether you 

4 use the full distribution or even if you pick 

5 off the 95th percentile, you know, you're 

6 being claimant favorable. Not necessarily. I 

7 just want to reiterate that.

8 DR. BEHLING: And you're exactly 

9 right, John, because I realized when I was in 

10 the utilities after the Three Mile Island 

11 accident there was a changeover in terms of 

12 conservatism that says from here on in every 

13 person who comes onsite regardless of whether 

14 you're a secretary or a groundskeeper, 

15 everyone wears a TLD. And what it really 

16 means is that when you go to, for instance, 

17 the annual reports that are issued by the 

18 Nuclear Regulatory Commission that identify 

19 all workers monitored, et cetera, et cetera, 

20 you will find that after '79 a complete shift 

21 to the left. That means the average of all 

22 monitored workers was reduced by a factor of 
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1 five or so because you're now monitoring 

2 people who were never monitored before who 

3 didn't really need to be monitored. And so 

4 you're really diluting the actual arithmetic 

5 dose to people who are truly rad workers that 

6 in days prior to that event were a very select 

7 group of people onsite who might only be 

8 representative of maybe 20 percent, 25 

9 percent, of the total population that's 

10 onsite. So when you monitored everybody, what 

11 you're really in effect doing is you're 

12 reducing the 50th percentile by a huge margin 

13 because you're incorporating people who don't 

14 have any exposure.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I guess 

16 also if you're monitoring everyone you would 

17 have the individual data.

18 DR. MAURO: Right and that's true, 

19 of course.

20 DR. BEHLING: But if you try to do 

21 a coworker model for that instance --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. We got 
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1 the issue here.

2 DR. MAURO: You got it.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So number 5 I 

4 just want to know before we move on. Is there 

5 an action here?

6 DR. BEHLING: I don't think 

7 there's really any resolution.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: We haven't 

9 responded. I mean it would have to be 

10 learning something about calibration of the 

11 badges and I haven't even read Harshaw badges.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean this 

13 whole question of a security badge being over 

14 your dosimeter. I mean that seems like a 

15 global kind of --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: But, again, if 

17 your dosimeter is calibrated in that 

18 configuration --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: To account for 

20 that, yes.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: -- then you're 

22 using energies that are appropriate.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Then you're 

3 confident that you've allowed for --

4 DR. BEHLING: Not really, Stu, I 

5 think and I'm going to obviously plead 

6 stupidity here because I don't remember for 

7 what facility, but this was done at another 

8 facility and it may have been Mallinckrodt. 

9 But at one other facility that's a whole 

10 process of using the badge as also an 

11 identifier for that individual's security 

badge. I think it introduced an 80 mg/cm2 12

13 filter over the open window. And, of course, 

14 that would reduce a large percentage of your 

15 low energy data completely. So it would be 

16 very difficult to try to figure out what the 

17 true dose would have been to the skin had that 

80 mg/cm2 18 filter been eliminated.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: But if your 

20 calibration field matches your field, you 

21 know, your workplace field, and your 

22 measurement of your calibration dose rate 
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1 includes the low energy, you know, your 

2 standard, your reference measurement of your 

3 standard for the low energy calibration --

4 DR. BEHLING: Sure.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: If that in fact is 

6 the true measurement of low energy dose, then 

7 your badge will correctly interpret.

8 DR. MAURO: Yes.

9 DR. BEHLING: I'm not sure I 

10 understand that, Stu. What if you have a 

badge that has the 80 mg/cm2 11 filter on it and 

12 you expose it to a field that has a low energy 

13 component? You will obviously not see it and 

14 yet your bare skin on your face, your arms and 

15 so forth will see it. So you're measuring 

16 something that's the skin is seeing but not 

17 your badge. 

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: If you're 

19 assuming you know the field.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: If you have 

21 exclusively a low energy field --

22 DR. BEHLING: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: -- then you're 

2 right. You won't see anything on the badge. 

3 So the key though is to identify a site that 

4 uses that as a security badge and has 

5 exclusively as its non-penetrating spectrum a 

6 low energy field.

7 DR. BEHLING: You're right.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: And uranium is not 

9 a low energy field. Harshaw is a uranium 

10 plant.

11 DR. MAURO: Yes. This is sort of 

12 like the NTA issue. That is you know, if you 

13 know what the energy distribution when you 

14 calibrate your badge and you know your energy 

15 distribution even though you're only seeing --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And this site, 

17 it seems you would.

18 DR. MAURO: Yes.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I thought 

20 the more general -- I didn't quite understand 

21 that. I'm just thinking of experiences I've 

22 had where I've walked around sites on audits 
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1 and things and people are totally miswearing 

2 their badges or they're covered up with other, 

3 you know, and you're supposed to have an open 

4 window exposed, and -- but I think that wasn't 

5 the issue that Hans was looking at.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 DR. MAURO: Well, your response, I 

8 mean you have a lengthy response that I have 

9 in front of me which says listen. Yes, it's 

10 true. If you don't calibrate your film badge 

11 properly, you've got a problem. And this is 

12 not only a problem at Harshaw or whatever 

13 experience, but every facility in the weapons 

14 complex.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

16 DR. MAURO: So, again, we agree in 

17 principle that if they are not properly 

18 calibrated and take into consideration the 

19 film badge packaging -- including the 

20 possibility that there may be some additional 

21 shielding associated with the security badge -

22 - yes, we're going to have a problem. And 
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1 this is true everywhere.

2 So, again, I don't think we are in 

3 disagreement. The only thing we may disagree

4 on is that in building your coworker model --

5 that's really the question. In building your 

6 coworker model and using the data that you 

7 have available, which you have plenty of film 

8 badge data available, did the folks that 

9 looked into that make sure that the film badge 

10 records they had, in fact, do represent a good 

11 data set to represent the real radiation field 

12 that these people experienced? 

13 Now the argument you just made is 

14 that since they're working with radiation it's 

15 really not that big of an issue because you're 

16 going to get some very strong data and you're 

17 going to get your photons, a strong enough 

18 field of a photon field, that this is not 

19 going to be an important issue. If that's the 

20 case, then that solves the problem. But I 

21 don't know whether -- and certainly that's not 

22 discussed at all in the exposure matrix.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, actually 

2 sitting here, what I said is it's doable with 

3 uranium. I didn't say that they did it right 

4 at Harshaw.

5 DR. MAURO: Okay.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: So that's what we 

7 need to check is what do we know about badge 

8 design and calibration, and then was it 

9 adequate for -- was the calibration correct 

10 given the fact that the way the badge was 

11 configured. So that's what we need to check.

12 DR. MAURO: Yes.

13 DR. BEHLING: Well, according to 

14 the TBD, there's no record. So I guess we may 

15 be --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Does the TBD say 

17 who read the badges?

18 DR. BEHLING: Well, early on, 

19 there is no -- apparently there doesn't seem 

20 to be any records that would allow us to 

21 review the protocol for calibration of 

22 dosimeters, et cetera. So it may be an 
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1 unresolvable issue.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay. Well, we'll 

3 see what we can find out then.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. That's 

5 the action then. I got the actions.

6 Finding 6?

7 MEMBER MUNN: Resolved.

8 DR. MAURO: Let's see. Number 6, 

9 the last one, we believe we uncovered an 

10 error. I believe it was about a fivefold 

11 error in a calculation related to a bioassay 

12 data report. And NIOSH's response is they 

13 agree. There was an error in the F1 value 

14 used in their calculations, and that's going 

15 to have to be fixed. So I think we are in 

16 agreement on that item.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

18 MEMBER MUNN: Done.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay and I 

20 added on finding number 7 as the Monday 

21 morning sampling question. That came out of 

22 the report, right? So it wasn't specified as 
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1 a finding, although Hans discussed it. Right?

2 DR. BEHLING: Yes.

3 DR. MAURO: Yes, in the White 

4 Paper.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

6 DR. BEHLING: Yes, that's the 48-

7 hour hiatus.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So that's just 

9 going to show up on the matrix as finding 7 

10 now, and, I mean, you've got -- this has come 

11 up on other sites, right? So you're --

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I mean 

13 there's a general -- our position has pretty 

14 much been the same, that when we identify a 

15 situation where it's pretty consistent --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: -- the majority, 

18 either all or the majority of the sites, of 

19 the samples have a two-day off -- were two-day 

20 off samples, then we have to make some 

21 adjustment to what you had --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. But I 
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1 think in this case in Hans's White Paper 

2 apparently he's got some evidence at least 

3 further than the --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Where he's seen 

5 the direction for the AEC that it's a --

6 sample of two-days off is what he said.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: And so what period 

9 are we talking about and what --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: The other thing 

12 was that if you did the logistics at the site, 

13 just how firm was that? It said do this and 

14 only do this or did it say if possible, do 

15 this or some things like that.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Or they're 

18 preferred? Two day off samples are preferred 

19 because I -- like I said, I'm old enough to 

20 remember that.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Well, 

22 yes and I think you're never going to find out 
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1 100 percent one way or the other.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But the weight 

4 of the evidence that's coming --

5 MR. HINNEFELD: We have to try to 

6 weigh the evidence.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So is it 

8 in your hands to look at? I mean I'm not sure 

9 exactly what's in Hans's paper.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, we could 

11 look at Harshaw.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I haven't had a 

13 chance to look at it yet.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: We can look back 

15 at Harshaw and anything that Hans or John can 

16 provide that makes them believe that there was 

17 this preference or this overwhelming 

18 preference for two-day off samples in this 

19 data set. If they can share that, that would 

20 be helpful and we can go check and see what we 

21 know. Because I don't know anything sitting 

22 here.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Right.

2 MEMBER MUNN: Well, there's the 

3 quote from NIOSH TBD.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and just for 

5 the record, our indications from our work on 

6 the Procedures Work Group the difference 

7 doesn't go up with that factor of ten. We 

8 have about a factor of three with Type F. So 

9 we can go through that.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We can go 

11 through that more. Yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Alright. 

14 So I just put an action to determine if 

15 there's evidence at this site. For the most 

16 part, they administer a policy of two-day off 

17 prior to urinalysis sampling. Alright.

18 Okay. And that takes us to the 

19 end of Harshaw, right? Is that the end of 

20 Harshaw?

21 DR. MAURO: That's the end of 

22 Harshaw.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. I 

2 think what we can do now -- can we take ten, a 

3 ten minute break?

4 DR. MAURO: Yes.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then I'm 

6 proposing that we come back to the first 100 

7 cases issues if we could because I'd like to 

8 have at least some discussion on that before 

9 Brad has to leave and others might have planes 

10 to catch or whatever. And we tend to fade out 

11 a little late in the day. So I'm hoping to 

12 have at least a half hour of good dialogue on 

13 that. And, Stu, when we come back, I'll 

14 probably ask you to kick it off with that just 

15 to get our minds thinking about this, your 

16 presentation, if you could go over the 

17 PowerPoint.

18 So let's take a ten minute break.

19 DR. MAURO: Mark, this is John. 

20 I'm going to break. I won't be returning for 

21 the back end of this. I've got an 

22 appointment.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine. 

2 Okay.

3 DR. MAURO: Very good. Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Thanks.

5 MR. KATZ: About five after three 

6 by my watch. Off the record.

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

8 matter went off the record at 2:54 p.m. and 

9 resumed at 3:08 p.m.)

10 MR. KATZ: Mike Gibson, are you 

11 still with us?

12 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I am here, 

13 Ted.

14 MR. KATZ: Okay. Great.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright, Mike. 

16 Hang in there. We're almost done.

17 Yes. What I want to do now is to 

18 go over the issues regarding the first 100 

19 cases report, and we were asked to reexamine 

20 the findings and sort of assess the 

21 sufficiencies or deficiencies categories and 

22 how which ones were critical with regard to 
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1 the Dose Reconstruction Program. Some of 

2 these actually I looked back at the 

3 transcript, and I think that sentence came 

4 almost from Larry's sort of overview last time 

5 we were in session about what he thought we 

6 should be looking for out of this.

7 So with that in mind, I sort of 

8 put together this really rough draft, but also 

9 I remembered that Stu had given an overview of 

10 some of the findings and sort of categorizing 

11 them at one of our last Board meetings. I 

12 don't know if it was the last one or the one 

13 before that.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Just the one in 

15 Cincinnati.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So I 

17 think it would serve us well maybe if you 

18 could go through that again and so we can 

19 start thinking about this, and then we can 

20 discuss this brief draft a little bit, and I 

21 think the outcome that I'm looking at from 

22 this is you've got a very, very rough thing 
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1 here with some ideas, certainly not in any way 

2 intended to be in a letter format. I just 

3 wanted to get some ideas out there and we 

4 don't have to try to reword everything now but 

5 to take this back and each Subcommittee member 

6 can sort of redline it, send me some ideas 

7 back and send separate documents saying that I 

8 came in and edited this. Here's what I think. 

9 And then I can kind of pull together all the 

10 ideas and come back with a more -- like a 

11 draft letter for next meeting.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Okay.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. So 

14 with that introduction, I'll let Stu kind of 

15 sort of represent what you did last time.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I've sent 

17 this to everybody. It's a PowerPoint 

18 presentation that I gave in Cincinnati that 

19 described what our response has been to the 

20 kind of the summary of findings. There was a 

21 summary of findings in the first 100, the 

22 report on the first 100 DR reviews and what 
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1 we've done in response. So I will go through 

2 this. It's not very long.

3 The first finding is the dose 

4 reconstruction final reports need modification 

5 to allow for a more complete audit and better 

6 explanation of information to the claimant. 

7 Well, this is getting pretty close, and it's a 

8 pretty significant change. And so there's a 

9 certain amount of concern about pulling the 

10 trigger on a big change like this.

11 The new format for dose 

12 reconstruction we've been working on for quite 

13 a while and we have like some of the final 

14 attempts at it. We've actually seen some dose 

15 reconstructions format. It's more of a 

16 package than a letter, and it contains the 

17 dose reconstruction report essentially in two 

18 parts. Well, it's prepared in two parts. 

19 The first is what I'd like to call 

20 the summary that's readable by a claimant, by 

21 a layman. And rather than trying to intermix 

22 the two parts where you give the scientific 
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1 basis of the dose reconstruction in 

2 combination with the explanation, we give an 

3 explanation to the claimant which is much 

4 simpler and therefore not as complete as the 

5 old dose reconstruction was. It essentially 

6 tells the claimant, this is the information we 

7 had, and, in general terms, this is what we 

8 did with it, and this is the result, and this 

9 is how it comes out. And we also usually 

10 include if they were monitored, this is what 

11 the site reported as your monitored exposure. 

12 So that's kind of the essence of it.

13 It will, I'm almost sure, will 

14 retain the picture of the IREP input sheet 

15 because the dose reconstruction report the 

16 rule requires that you use as part of the dose 

17 reconstruction report you include the 

18 reconstructed dose year by year. And that's a 

19 convenient way to include it. So I'm almost 

20 sure we'll include that.

21 The meat of the dose 

22 reconstruction from our standpoint will be in 
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1 a separate packet, which is likely an Excel 

2 workbook that should be able to be quickly 

3 reviewable by a dose reconstructor or someone 

4 who is familiar with how the dose 

5 reconstructions were done that describes the 

6 technique that was used to reconstruct that 

7 component. So it will be in sections. It 

8 will have, for instance, the external section 

9 and rather than -- it may or may not give each 

10 year’s dose because that's going to be on the 

11 other form anyway. But it will describe 

12 during what years we used what technique.

13 For instance, during '71 through 

14 '75 we used the coworker approach, and from 

15 '76 through '80 we used the reported doses. 

16 Missed dose would be accounted for by actual 

17 number of zeros or maximized number of zeros 

18 or those kinds of things. And then a similar 

19 kind of thing for internal, it would describe, 

20 you know, in the fifth on the actual bioassay 

21 data to determine the inputs, chronic intake 

22 over the duration of employment or chronic 
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1 over the duration of employment plus acutes on 

2 these dates fitted, you know, using in the 

3 fifth to describe to a dose reconstructor how 

4 was the dose reconstructed. So you don't have 

5 to try to divine that out of this combination 

6 of the description and the other part where 

7 it's hard sometimes to decide exactly what was 

8 done. You should be able to just look through 

9 this worksheet, this workbook, and if you're 

10 familiar with how dose reconstructions are 

11 done, it should be clear to you what was done 

12 to do the dose reconstruction. 

13 So essentially the decisions that 

14 were made to convert the file information of 

15 what you know about the claim into the dose 

16 reconstruction should all be described there. 

17 So the reviewer can just say, okay. That's 

18 how they get it. And then you either can say, 

19 okay, that seems to be right, or they didn't 

20 get it right; it should have been this other. 

21 So that's the part there.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: That's your final 

2 internal report you're talking about.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: That we have not 

4 proposed to send to the claimant.

5 MEMBER MUNN: I would think not.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: We had proposed 

7 that that would be in DR supporting file. We 

8 can provide --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The part 2 

10 report.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. But we can 

12 provide it if they ask. But it's not -- from 

13 our standpoint it's really going to be 

14 understandable to someone who's been involved 

15 in either doing or looking at these dose 

16 reconstructions.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Exactly.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Because we're not 

19 going to explain in detail the technique. 

20 We're going to say it's OTIB-0004. You know? 

21 That's going to be the extent of the 

22 explanation. So it's intended for people --
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1 it's intended for our reviewers first of all. 

2 It's needed for our reviewers.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: And in this group 

5 on the ones they select for review and anybody 

6 else who starts to look at it, and it would be 

7 available to the claimants if they ask so that 

8 if they felt that they wanted to see that they 

9 could see it, or if they were a help to the 

10 system and wanted to look at it, or if they 

11 felt like they wanted someone to look at it 

12 for them. It would be available to them.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

14 MR. FARVER: Would it include 

15 references so we know what version of the 

16 document were used?

17 MR. HINNEFELD: The references --

18 yes. I mean it should describe that in the 

19 description of how it's done. There will 

20 likely be references in the first section. 

21 There will probably be a references section in 

22 the one that goes to the claimant.
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1 MR. FARVER: Right, but I'm 

2 thinking so we know what version or what 

3 revision was used. So you can track back to 

4 the table or whatever.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. It should --

6 it's supposed to be -- it's supposed to just 

7 make it easy for a reviewer to look at it and 

8 say, okay. I see what it is.

9 MR. FARVER: Because, I mean, in 

10 the workbooks I've seen where they'll put 

11 notations in where this is from the coworker 

12 data.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

14 MR. FARVER: But you won't have a 

15 reference to that document or what revision it 

16 is, or it will say OTIB something, but you 

17 won't know what revision.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, it should do 

19 that, but that's a good point. I'll make sure 

20 that it does. It has that connotation.

21 So that is essentially the dose 

22 reconstruction report. You know, those two 
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1 pieces are the dose reconstruction report. 

2 The remainder of the packet is sort of a "what 

3 comes next page," so the claimants will know 

4 how the process is going to proceed. There is 

5 a glossary. There is -- I think that it seems 

6 like maybe there is one more piece. I can't 

7 remember what it is right now.

8 But they are essentially packed. 

9 They're just forms, you know, that are 

10 provided with each case in order to help to 

11 explain it. And a lot of that came from 

12 findings from various places whether it be 

13 procedures or CATI or wherever these findings 

14 will come from that say, you're not being very 

15 explanatory to the claimant.

16 And so it's an attempt to try to 

17 make it better, and it's to try to maybe 

18 remove finality of closeout interview. 

19 There's kind of this perception that if you go 

20 to a closeout interview and then it's done, 

21 it's done forever. Well, it's not done 

22 forever. If additional information is learned 
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1 later, it's reopened. You know, it goes back 

2 to Labor, but it can be reopened with new 

3 information. So the closeout information 

4 isn't really the end forever necessarily. 

5 It's supposed to try to alleviate some of 

6 that, some of those concerns that have been 

7 raised.

8 So that's the entirety of the 

9 package, and unfortunately it's a package. 

10 What we will tell them is read this part first 

11 which is the summary of the dose 

12 reconstruction.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: And then you 

15 probably want to see what happens next, and 

16 the rest of the stuff, look at it if you want 

17 to. That's essentially what the message is 

18 supposed to be. And here's a cover letter on 

19 the context.

20 MR. FARVER: I figured it was.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: What to do.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: At least the 
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1 way you described it is definitely responsive 

2 to some of the concerns we've brought up, I 

3 mean --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Well, we 

5 tried to -- there's a lot of stuff.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. The 

7 question is-- is it more friendly to the 

8 claimant and more readable.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And the other 

11 big concern that we always bring up is the 

12 audit ability, you know.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. You go 

14 through this stuff --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Some auditor 

16 can track through, yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we tried to 

18 hit several different audiences with one dose 

19 reconstruction report, and it didn't hit any 

20 of them very well. That's really what it's 

21 been doing, so on and so forth. So that's in 

22 essence what it is. 
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1 Now everybody will have their own 

2 judgment on how well we did.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: And I'm trying to 

5 think of -- I'm thinking there ought to be 

6 some sort of test audience. I think this 

7 group might be good before we go plunging 

8 forward. It might be good.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I was 

10 saying one of us, either we should --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I would like to 

12 get to Denise Brock and see what her reaction 

13 is because she had some of those comments 

14 about understandability and things early on. 

15 So, of course, she's a lot more knowledgeable 

16 of that program.

17 MR. KATZ: The trouble with Denise 

18 at this point is that she --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: She knows so much 

20 about this program, yes.

21 MR. KATZ: -- has become so 

22 sophisticated that she actually is no longer 
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1 so much a representative of a naive --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Certainly not a 

3 naive claimant.

4 MR. KATZ: No, she's not. She 

5 understands really an awful lot.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Really understands 

7 a lot.

8 MR. KATZ: But she's still always 

9 good -- it's still always good to use her as 

10 one --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: So I think we 

12 ought to use some sort of sounding board 

13 rather that just go plunging into this. So I 

14 can take an action to send that out once we 

15 get in the situation or even close. I don't 

16 have to be completely happy with it to share 

17 it.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Well, I 

19 don't know if we can review it on the 

20 Subcommittee until it's a final package, I 

21 mean.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. I'd 
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1 have to check and see.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. KATZ: You know you could pull 

4 together a focus group of actual -- pool of 

5 potential claimants or whatever.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 MR. KATZ: Less than 10.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: We'll have to see 

9 what we can do. I'll work with --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not sure 

11 what our restrictions are.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: They know how to 

13 do that.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We can review a 

15 draft. I don't know that we --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I see a lot --

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean 

18 everybody.

19 (Simultaneous speakers.)

20 MR. HINNEFELD: You get a lot of 

21 kind of draft material.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: You know, all the 

2 stuff that's been seen in here.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And you can 

4 always do Rev 2.

5 MR. FARVER: Is there something 

6 you could present at a meeting and maybe get 

7 input from people?

8 MR. HINNEFELD: I can. I really 

9 want to have a -- you know, I kind of like the 

10 idea of having the claimants.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I believe that 

12 might be a good forum for it.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Make sure you have 

14 claimants. I think it would be better to 

15 have, well, a mixture of -- maybe have some 

16 claimants who have been through this and maybe 

17 some who haven't, you know, maybe something 

18 like that.

19 But there are people who know more 

20 about how to do this than me back in our 

21 office.

22 MR. FARVER: And that's not 
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1 typically an outreach meeting that you don't 

2 usually get that kind of --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think you're 

4 --

5 MR. FARVER: -- of focus group.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it depends.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Your other 

8 resources might be like Mark Lewis and the 

9 Worker Outreach Group internally.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. It depends 

11 on the type of outreach meeting. Sometimes an 

12 outreach meeting is with the leadership of a 

13 union at a site, and many of those are not 

14 claimants. They just want to know how to 

15 advise their membership who are claimants.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: So it depends on 

18 the --

19 MEMBER CLAWSON: I still think 

20 that Denise would still be a good resource 

21 though. I know she has become very 

22 knowledgeable about it. I think she's still 
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1 in touch enough that she can see what the 

2 issues are that are coming.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I would like 

4 to send it to her, but like I said, like Pete 

5 was -- or Ted was saying -- where did Pete 

6 came from. Like Ted was saying, this guy does 

7 need -- I mean she does really know a lot 

8 about the program and understands a lot about 

9 how we do things and why.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Well, you got to get 

11 the best feedback from your proposed target 

12 audience. That's not Denise or any of us.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

14 MEMBER MUNN: That's somebody who 

15 is --

16 MR. HINNEFELD: That's the 

17 claimant.

18 MEMBER MUNN: -- the claimant.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But the part 2 

20 probably gives some pretty good feedback from 

21 this.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: From this group.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Sure.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Or the ones 

3 auditing the cases.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. So anyway 

6 that's the form it's going to take. And like 

7 I said it's getting close. It's just like 

8 it's scary to pull the trigger on it and 

9 change that date because it's a pretty big 

10 change and we want to make sure all our 

11 processes are in place, and ORAU is getting 

12 their system built to take care of it and 

13 handle this new package, and then we, on our 

14 side, do, in fact, use some dose 

15 reconstructions. We thought, gee whiz. We've 

16 got to make sure we can do it. So that's 

17 being done as well. 

18 And it may come in phases. It may 

19 not be like we flip the switch and all of a 

20 sudden everyone comes out in the new format. 

21 There may be some old format ones still 

22 working their way through this as we will 
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1 switch to the new. So that's where we are on 

2 that.

3 I see that this wasn't my last 

4 version because I didn't have a finding on the 

5 response on that.

6 The second finding, the summary 

7 finding, is case files, which is supporting 

8 data from the dose reconstruction, should 

9 include the internal guides or instructions 

10 used by the dose reconstructor and should 

11 include supporting data analysis. And 

12 internal guidance or instructions related to 

13 relevant employment are now at least included 

14 and because we showed you that work thing we 

15 had that conversation earlier on. That's in 

16 there.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, it was 

18 already touched on.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: We touched on 

20 that, and then we do have the worthwhile 

21 comment that this needs to be --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Documented, 
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1 yes.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: -- documented for 

3 posterity rather than just putting it out at a 

4 staff meeting because sometimes you hire new 

5 staff. You know, there needs to be some 

6 instruction on this.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And even when 

8 we say show your work kind of thing --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: What does that 

10 mean?

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, what does 

12 that mean? Right. So I get into some of that 

13 with my paper that I wrote up several things 

14 that we've touched on the last meeting and 

15 other discussions about not only the -- like 

16 IMBA runs if you used IMBA, but what about 

17 peer reviews or is a peer review done?

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Should that 

20 document be included and that kind of stuff. 

21 So what does it mean to show all work? Okay. 

22 Go ahead.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: So the next 

2 summary finding or several findings related to 

3 the claimant interview process. These include 

4 questions about the adequacy of the interview, 

5 consideration of the information provided in 

6 the interview, and explanation in the dose 

7 reconstruction report of how the information 

8 was considered. And our action or response 

9 was the Subcommittee recommended a series of 

10 reviews to CATI, and those are working their 

11 way into OMB, essentially, a request. OMB has 

12 approved of the form we got. We're just 

13 changing the form. We don't think the change 

14 is a burden. It's just a pro bono thing we 

15 have to get the OMB okay on making those 

16 changes.

17 Consideration of the information 

18 is explained after the fact in each case. 

19 What does that mean? That relates to the --

20 the consideration of the information provided 

21 in the interview.

22 Oh. There have been -- I guess 
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1 this finding relates to --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Several of the 

3 findings, yes.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Several of the 

5 findings were -- you know there was just 

6 information in the CATI. How is this 

7 addressed in the dose reconstruction? We have 

8 been able to explain that here. I think the 

9 further thing though is that which actually 

10 relates to number 3 is make sure you're clear 

11 that in the dose reconstruction how you use 

12 the information from the interview.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Which is kind of -

15 - that's kind of part of it. I think that to 

16 me they're kind of the same.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, they 

18 definitely are related.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: One is did you 

20 consider the information, and the second one 

21 is did you explain to the claimant that you 

22 considered the information. So it's kind of 
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1 the same thing. Make sure that the 

2 information in the CATI is addressed and that 

3 you have explained it in the dose 

4 reconstruction to the claimant how you used 

5 the information they gave. I think we're at 

6 least getting better at that.

7 The next one is dose 

8 reconstruction methodology for compensable 

9 claims. This practice was adopted briefly in 

10 2005 under pressure to complete claims more 

11 quickly. It was discontinued based on the 

12 issues later identified by the, you know, the 

13 exact kind of comments or issues that were 

14 raised in here, were the reasons why we said 

15 this really isn't a good idea. We shouldn't 

16 be doing it.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that was a 

18 formal policy announcement and stuff, yes.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 In best estimate cases, several 

21 findings related to professional judgment and 

22 consistency were made which may have impacted 
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1 the overall outcome of the case. And our 

2 action and response was professional judgment 

3 is required in a number of those dose 

4 reconstructions, and those specific findings 

5 were all addressed, and attempts are made to 

6 better explain the basis for such judgments.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That goes back 

8 to that.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: And that was the 

10 last one. So that's essentially from the 

11 summary findings from the first 100 letters, 

12 you know, things that we say, well, we're not 

13 ignoring this. We are doing things about 

14 these.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Now I'm going 

16 to hold you off on the quality control thing 

17 you sent around --

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- and go to 

20 the document that I put together, again, very 

21 rough, but one part of it is quality control. 

22 So that may be where I ask Stu to elaborate a 
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1 little bit on what exists currently, and maybe 

2 some of that -- earlier comments you were 

3 making to me off the record before the meeting 

4 was about quality assurance.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So all I did 

7 here was to quickly try to get my thoughts 

8 together on, just reflecting on Larry's sort 

9 of, well, here's what I think we're really 

10 looking for in terms of you assessing these 

11 findings a little further. And that is 

12 focusing on identifying certain deficiencies 

13 or categories of deficiencies that were 

14 critical issues to assure a scientific, valid, 

15 and defensible dose reconstruction program.

16 So, again, the categories of 

17 deficiencies that were critical that came up 

18 in the first 100 cases, again, that's 

19 important, too, that came up in the first 100 

20 cases because we know all the sort of 

21 restrictions, not restrictions but all the --

22 you know, that we weren't necessarily getting 
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1 the reflective cases of the overall program 

2 although we might have. There are not that 

3 many best estimates in our cases as I thought 

4 that there were going to be eventually.

5 But the first three sets of cases, 

6 as you'll see, Kathy Behling pulled together 

7 some numbers for me that I put into this 

8 report, and the first three sets of cases, you 

9 know, where I have a little footnote there, 

10 Kathy actually put that in her text that we 

11 had no best estimate cases in these first 

12 three sets. So you wouldn't expect to see 

13 anything but zeros on the right-hand side for 

14 that one.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Anyway, if we 

17 go back up to the first paragraph, I just 

18 started to try to think, and this certainly is 

19 not -- like I said, it's very rough. But 

20 three items that I sort of thought of 

21 categories out of this first set of 100 that 

22 seemed to meet that definition of critical to 
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1 me were -- and my document just went away --

2 there it is -- dose reconstruction quality 

3 control and quality assurance. Number 2 is 

4 the appropriate use and consideration of 

5 information provided by the claimant workers 

6 and the public. And number 3 is case 

7 documentation and reporting. And then I tried 

8 to expand a little on each one of those topics 

9 just for discussion purposes at this point 

10 certainly.

11 The first one, quality control and 

12 assurance, we talked about this at the last 

13 meeting, this notion of looking at quality 

14 control related findings versus the type of 

15 case. Obviously, you could certainly make an 

16 argument that some of these quality control 

17 findings if they were always for the 

18 overestimating cases are not as big of a 

19 concern. But they are certainly more 

20 important if you get them in the best estimate 

21 cases. At least, we were discussing maybe you 

22 need different sort of acceptance criteria for 
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1 different types of dose reconstruction.

2 So just looking at these, this 

3 gives a breakdown of how they fall out, and I 

4 guess the fourth and fifth set might be most 

5 representative since we have a mix of all the 

6 cases in that. But there's certainly some --

7 Kathy said -- and, Kathy, are you on the line?

8 MS. BEHLING: Yes, I'm on the 

9 line.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And you did say 

11 in your email -- I'm using the numbers. Do 

12 you have this report?

13 MS. BEHLING: No, I don't.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm sorry.

15 MS. BEHLING: Alright.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I forwarded it 

17 to John.

18 MS. BEHLING: Okay.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But it probably 

20 didn't get passed on.

21 MEMBER MUNN: I'll send it to you, 

22 Kathy.
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1 MS. BEHLING: Thank you, Wanda.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thank you. 

3 Anyway, the fourth or -- Kathy did indicate in 

4 pulling this information together it was 

5 difficult in some cases being sure which cases 

6 were overestimates, underestimates, or best 

7 estimates, you know, as Stu has had that 

8 challenge before, too. Sometimes you have a 

9 best estimate external, and it's sort of a 

10 hodgepodge. So these are not necessarily 

11 clear lines between these categories.

12 But anyway that's sort of what 

13 came out. So the question about -- I guess 

14 the concern with regard to this topic would be 

15 just that, is, you know, it appears that we 

16 had a lot of these findings. We definitely --

17 my opinion is that it is a concern. The 

18 question is that in terms of how it should be 

19 considered. I think we have to have a better 

20 understanding also of the current program that 

21 exists, what's being done. Another thing --

22 and that's why I was talking about the show 
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1 your all because some of these categories tend 

2 to overlap in my mind, too. But the show your 

3 all work part of this, you know, we're never 

4 sure when we review these cases the peer 

5 review information -- I don't believe is 

6 documented in the case files. At least I 

7 haven't seen it. Yes.

8 So you know we're -- the only way 

9 we notice that something's been reviewed is 

10 that you see several sets of signatures, 

11 right. But we don't actually see a document 

12 produced by the reviewer.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Correct.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So anyway.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: In many cases I 

16 don't believe there is a document produced by 

17 the reviewer.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: It would be from 

20 ORAU reviewer stand -- from an OCAS reviewer 

21 standpoint a certain percentage, you know, the 

22 person reviewing has to fill out a form. It 
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1 pops out at the site and they have to develop 

2 a form. But that doesn't go in the CPR file 

3 necessarily.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: It's filed in a 

6 programmatic set rather than in the case file 

7 and --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, can you 

9 at this point step us through like some of the 

10 quality control?

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Let's see what I 

12 sent here.

13 MEMBER MUNN: And, Stu, a long, 

14 long time ago we had some discussions -- I 

15 can't remember in which work group about --

16 early on we were talking about a QC check off

17 list that I think ultimately worked into what 

18 you use for the dose reconstructor. But I 

19 can't recall whether we talked about a similar 

20 kind of check off sheet for peer reviews. Did 

21 we even discuss that, or do you recall?

22 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't recall if 
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1 we discussed any kind of a checklist for peer 

2 review. I don't right now remember if there 

3 is one. I think Scott is still on the phone. 

4 He might know.

5 MR. FARVER: There is one for ORAU 

6 procedures.

7 MR. SIEBERT: We have a peer 

8 review checklist. However, it is not a 

9 portion that needs to go -- it doesn't go into 

10 the case file. There is a separate sign-off 

11 form that the dose reconstructor signs to 

12 state that they followed everything within the 

13 peer review procedure.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Oh. So --

15 MR. FARVER: It's about a 12 page 

16 check off list. I mean, it's pretty intense.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Right. So we might 

18 not -- in those cases, we might not need the 

19 actual form itself as long as -- in each case 

20 --

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

22 MEMBER MUNN: -- as long as we 
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1 knew what the contents of the checklist were.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: As long as you 

3 knew the form, yes.

4 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I guess 

6 when you -- I think when I'd want to see it in 

7 the case file is when there was a discrepancy 

8 found or this whole notion of discrepancy 

9 identified but no need to change, you know, 

10 that idea that Stu was talking about last 

11 meeting when we said some of these things if 

12 it's a millirem difference or something and 

13 it's not going to affect anything and it's an 

14 overestimating case, you know, they might know 

15 the discrepancy. But there's no need to redo 

16 the dose reconstruction. But that should be 

17 in there so we don't have to --

18 MEMBER MUNN: At least the 

19 sentence identifying what it is. Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

21 MR. FARVER: They usually have a 

22 comments form.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. A 

2 comments form.

3 MR. FARVER: And sometimes that 

4 may have that typed in.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Are those in 

6 the case files though? I've seen this --

7 MR. FARVER: I won't say they're 

8 in all the files.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Well,

10 they probably shouldn't be.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Usually the 

12 comment form is one that is filled out when 

13 we're sending the dose reconstruction back for 

14 correction.

15 MR. FARVER: Okay.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: As you do in 

17 comment forms.

18 MR. FARVER: Oh, back to the DR 

19 for -- yes.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: Back to the DR for 

21 correction.

22 MR. FARVER: Yes.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this middle 

2 --

3 MR. HINNEFELD: So the middle --

4 well, I see there is a mistake here. But I'm 

5 going to let it go because it's a mistake on 

6 the high side and this is and overestimating 

7 from the DR anyway. A dose reconstructor 

8 might just decide that's okay, and that 

9 doesn't necessarily get recorded anywhere now.

10 MR. FARVER: Yes.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I feel like 

12 in the first 100 that we probably had a lot 

13 that could have fallen into that category.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: A lot of the 

15 findings, yes. A lot of the findings could 

16 have fallen in.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Because 

18 we all at the end of the day after several 

19 hours of discussion we say but it only would 

20 have resulted in a 50 millirem difference per 

21 year and not affect anything or whatever.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. Just wouldn't 

2 affect anything.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: All of the OTIB4 0008 and OTIB-0010 findings, well that was, I 

5 guess some of those may have come up here. 

6 OTIB-0008 and OTIB-0010 findings.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. OTIB-0008.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: All of those were 

9 high, high errors on an overestimating 

10 approach. And in fact it was really ambiguity 

11 -- you couldn't really tell what the procedure 

12 was telling you to do.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We can have 

14 Clawson review that and --

15 MR. HINNEFELD: He gets all the 

16 action from now on.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. See you, 

18 Brad.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Thank you, Brad.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. So I 

21 mean I'm just -- these are just discussions to 

22 understand the process.
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1 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, I know, I 

2 interrupted Stu before he started giving his -

3 -

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, no. And I 

5 think when we're pulling this together I'm 

6 thinking, okay, we identify this, but also 

7 better understanding of the process might help 

8 the Board to then make any recommendations if 

9 necessary, you know. I mean we have to sort 

10 of understand what exists now before we can --

11 MEMBER MUNN: True. 

12 MR. HINNEFELD: In terms of the 

13 actual dose reconstruction itself and what's 

14 done with the dose reconstruction, there is 

15 one thing that's in the form I sent which is 

16 more of a QA activity than a QC activity which 

17 is the training required for dose 

18 reconstruction. There is a training 

19 expectation in dose reconstruction. They have 

20 to complete that training before they do dose 

21 reconstructions, and then after that they work 

22 essentially under close supervision of a peer 
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1 reviewer or their team leader while they turn 

2 out and become proficient at doing it. So 

3 that process is in place which is not just 

4 inspection.

5 Then, from then on, the other 

6 items that are identified is the peer review 

7 process and in what I sent out there is no 

8 detail, like the peer review form isn't there. 

9 But it is available in terms of what's looked 

10 at on peer review and then the review by OCAS, 

11 and there is a little more detail here on what 

12 the OCAS review includes. There's a procedure 

13 for doing dose reconstruction review.

14 I think we've commented there are 

15 a lot of things on there. It's just that the 

16 other that's kind of nice is that really what 

17 you want to have this in, and you can always 

18 argue can there be more specific description, 

19 more specific requirements in there. But the 

20 approach is that the review by the OCAS 

21 reviewer should make sure their approach is 

22 technically valid. In other words, they've 
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1 chosen their approach that is appropriate for 

2 the specifics of the claim, that the 

3 Probability of Causation falls on the correct 

4 side. In other words, if you see an -- and 

5 this is what you were saying. Well, this is 

6 no resonating approach. They've just mistaken 

7 it. They've actually estimated higher than 

8 what they maybe should have, but it's still 

9 overestimates below the 50 percent. So 

10 they're on the right side of 50 percent. So 

11 you would probably let some things go just 

12 because that's what you're checking for. Is 

13 the outcome correct? Is it clear that the 

14 outcome is correct?

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Those things 

16 aren't necessarily separately noted.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Correct.

18 Now the second one, the next high, 

19 is they are completed according to the 

20 guidance contained in the approved procedures. 

21 So that actually is more specific than the one 

22 we gave. In other words, did they follow the 
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1 procedure correctly?

2 And, again, this kind of implies 

3 that if it wasn't it would be sent back. But 

4 I don't know that that's necessary the case.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: If there is a 

7 deviation from the procedure that didn't 

8 change but it's clearly on the --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: On the wrong 

10 side.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: It's on the wrong 

12 side. That might not be corrected just for 

13 expedience because once you return it then 

14 there's a whole other cycle to this dose 

15 reconstruction.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: And that the IREP 

18 input file produces the same result as IREP 

19 summary provided because when we get these 

20 dose reconstructions there is an IREP summary 

21 on there. For the IREP input file, there's an 

22 IREP summary. And so we run all those. We 
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1 run those IREPs and make sure we get the same 

2 output that was provided with the case file.

3 And if in fact there is this 

4 deficiency that the dose reconstructor -- that 

5 needs to be corrected, then the comment form 

6 of what you commented about, that comment form 

7 is filled out and is provided back to ORAU. 

8 ORAU databases their comments. You know, they 

9 know why everything is sent back, things like 

10 that. And those comment sheets are in the 

11 dose reconstructor. It's important.

12 Okay. And then this next part 

13 talks about the five percent, and it randomly 

14 popped up to require the completion of the 

15 checklist. And then quarterly, we do an 

16 assessment of what those checklists are 

17 telling us. But that's essentially looking at 

18 the forms that were filled out last quarter, 

19 putting an assessment form on the front, and 

20 seeing if there's anything that stands out in 

21 terms of what's being identified on those 

22 forms.
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1 And then finally after the OCAS 

2 reviewer approves it, there's still one more 

3 senior HP or a team leader takes one more look 

4 to make sure there's not something obviously 

5 wrong. They don't do the review in depth like 

6 to the same depth that the OCAS reviewer did. 

7 But they just read through it to make sure it 

8 reads right and make sure there's nothing --

9 and it's consistent with what you'd expect. 

10 If you see a prostate claim with one year of 

11 employment that gets paid, normally that gets 

12 your attention, you think, boy, that one 

13 doesn't look right. We'd better take another 

14 look.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: So things like 

17 that. That's essentially what's done on the 

18 dose reconstruction.

19 MEMBER MUNN: So following a dose 

20 reconstruction, you have a standard peer 

21 review and then --

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: By ORAU, right?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: It's by ORAU. The 

2 peer review is by ORAU, yes.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. 

4 MR. HINNEFELD: If it's an ORAU 

5 dose reconstruction.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right, right.

7 MEMBER MUNN: And then you have a 

8 closer review of a selected number of cases.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Do you mean on the 

10 ORAU side?

11 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know. I 

13 don't know that that's the case. That occurs 

14 on our side.

15 MEMBER MUNN: On your side. And 

16 then there is a final high level overview of 

17 the case.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I always 

19 like to think of it when it's on ORAU and when 

20 it's with us.

21 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: If it's on the 
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1 ORAU side, the dose is compared and there's a 

2 peer review. And after the peer review and 

3 the peer reviewer, that's usually kind of 

4 informal because it's usually a team leader or 

5 a senior person or disclosure person and 

6 they'll say, well, you ought to do this 

7 different or word this a little differently. 

8 I don't think they can get into the wording of 

9 it very much, though. And they make sure that 

10 the peer reviewer has kind of focused dose 

11 reconstruction and done it appropriately, 

12 technically appropriately, and then it's 

13 submitted to us.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Then it comes back 

15 to you.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Then it's 

17 submitted to us. When it's submitted to us, 

18 then it gets a review by a health physicist, 

19 you know, one of our OCAS reviewers, and then 

20 five percent of those are the ones that are 

21 selected for the report. 

22 MEMBER MUNN: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: After that review, 

2 then a senior tech or team leader, not a 

3 senior tech, senior HP or team leader does a 

4 fairly cursory look just as sort of a sanity 

5 check. It's not in depth the way the OCAS 

6 reviewer -- so that's done. And then once 

7 that's done --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's OCAS 

9 also --

10 MR. HINNEFELD: That's still us. 

11 And once that's done then it is compared and 

12 the draft is sent to the claimant. That's the 

13 process through us with the various 

14 inspections.

15 So what begs the question now is 

16 Doug is sitting over there saying, but I see 

17 all these mistakes. I know that's what he's 

18 thinking. And so I think to really understand 

19 that, we have to think carefully about that. 

20 You know, this is a nutty -- problem. This is 

21 not a simple problem because there are a 

22 number of things that could lead to that. One 
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1 thing people could be just messing up, you 

2 know, they could just not be inspecting 

3 carefully. That's one possibility.

4 Another could be that we have not 

5 provided clear enough instruction on how to 

6 inspect. You know, we have a procedure, but 

7 it isn't really clear what we want this to 

8 say.

9 Another might be that we don't all 

10 have the same understanding of what should be 

11 inspected out. You know, what is it exactly 

12 that you want this thing -- how you want it to 

13 look? I might have a different judgment than 

14 the OCAS reviewers, to be completely honest, 

15 about what that is. And so I would guess I'm 

16 in the position to change the OCAS reviewer's 

17 mind at this point if I choose to. So that 

18 might be a part of it as well. So it's going 

19 to take a little more analysis to really 

20 understand those kinds of issues.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Of course, that 
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1 analysis takes time and somebody to work on 

2 it.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And 

4 money.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, time and 

6 money and the bad thing is, you take somebody 

7 to do that you know you're taking off 

8 something else. That's what we do.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Well, 

10 that's why I think we want to understand it 

11 better so that if we make any recommendations, 

12 it's the targeted recommendations. You know, 

13 it's --

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I think as I think 

15 about this, the helpful approach might be, 

16 you've seen a number of them. I think -- I 

17 hate to make it hard to go find these again, 

18 but if you could find some examples of a 

19 particular error that made it out to a dose 

20 reconstruction and said, look. This we don't 

21 really think should have gone -- this one 

22 shouldn't have gone out. It wasn't a TIB-0008 
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1 or a TIB-0010, or it's an overestimate, an 

2 overestimated approach.

3 But the dose reconstruction just 

4 doesn't say what it's supposed to say. You 

5 know, it did one thing, but it said it did 

6 something else or this or whatever you think 

7 are fairly significant things that ought to be 

8 pointed out. And we could probably pick them 

9 off the matrix; at least, get first selection 

10 on the matrix.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And get those back 

13 to us and let's get the guys who actually do 

14 the work engaged in this and see what exactly 

15 is going on and why are these going out this 

16 way. That might be a way.

17 MR. FARVER: Some of the mistakes 

18 that come to mind are doses are missing.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, yours won't 

20 be in there.

21 MR. FARVER: Okay. Or all the 

22 bioassay data wasn't considered. Or all the 
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1 positive bioassay data wasn't considered, and 

2 I believe these are check items in the ORAU 

3 checklist.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

5 MEMBER MUNN: They ought to be.

6 MR. FARVER: So I believe that 

7 checklist is very good and very thorough. And 

8 this is where I get confused. If we have this 

9 thorough checklist and it's being followed, 

10 then we shouldn't have to come around and be 

11 finding missing dates and missing data and 

12 things like that.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I think that 

14 would be an important step then is to -- let's 

15 get those examples out and let's get back to 

16 the people who do the work and say, what 

17 exactly is going on here. You know, is there 

18 explanation of this other than, oops, I missed 

19 it. And if it's, oops, I missed it, and we're 

20 doing that a lot, then we have got to rethink 

21 what's causing us to miss it all those times.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then, what 
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1 the --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: You are being lax 

3 or if you're too familiar with them or --

4 MR. FARVER: And if you have this 

5 checklist in place, it should not be that 

6 difficult to track the items that are more 

7 frequent.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. Provided 

9 it's filled out every time. I won't swear 

10 that it's filled out every time. I mean it's 

11 --

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It's a lot like --

14 for instance, we have checklists and it's

15 filled out on the five percent that come up 

16 and when the reviewer feels, but other than 

17 that, when he wants to he can fill it out any 

18 time. But other than that, he doesn't have to 

19 fill it in, either when he approves it or 

20 returns it, he doesn't have to fill that out.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: And, again, it 
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1 doesn't seem very hard, but maybe it's five 

2 minutes, and if you do 100 dose 

3 reconstructions a week, that's 500 minutes or 

4 almost ten hours. That's eight hours of 

5 personnel time, eight man hours of time that 

6 you now are spending, and you're producing the 

7 same amount of work that you did before. So 

8 those are things we kind of want to weigh 

9 here.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, yes, as 

11 opposed to spending the time on the other 

12 side.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I've spent a 

14 hell of a lot of time down here. If those 

15 guys have 14 more hours, I don't care.

16 MEMBER MUNN: Yes. The real 

17 question is if the checklists are thorough and 

18 in place and are not being followed, that's 

19 the real question. If the checklists are not 

20 being followed, then why not? Because there 

21 are only two aspects to the issue really and 

22 truly. One, are the proper controls in place, 
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1 and, two, are the proper controls being 

2 followed? And if we come to the conclusion 

3 that the controls are in place but they're not 

4 being followed, then that raises the question 

5 of why.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Are the 

7 controls proper, too, I guess would be the one 

8 step back.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Basically 

11 I would agree with you.

12 (Simultaneous speakers.)

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. Look at 

14 the checklist, and it seems like it's pretty -

15 MR. FARVER: I believe it's pretty 

16 thorough.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

18 MR. FARVER: And if I was 

19 overseeing a program like that, I would 

20 probably be tracking all these items to start 

21 with on every dose reconstruction and seeing 

22 if they're met and to get some feedback if 
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1 you've got errors and then you know which ones 

2 to concentrate on. And then after you do so 

3 many you could say, wow, we don't need an 

4 extensive one. We're getting all these right 

5 and we can cut it back. And then you scale it 

6 back based on your input that you have from 

7 your previous dose reconstructions. But if 

8 you don't look at any of that then you're not 

9 getting any feedback.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And you could 

11 also see if you're getting a lot of comments 

12 in the same areas.

13 MR. FARVER: Yes, and focus on 

14 those areas and then drop some of the areas 

15 that you really don't need to focus on. So it 

16 can be scaled back.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Are you saying 

18 you're not sure that data has been looked at 

19 in that way?

20 MR. FARVER: But I'm not sure it's 

21 being looked at and you really can't say much 

22 about it.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So that's 

2 something we could at least ask maybe. I'm 

3 just trying to get -- I don't think we're in a 

4 position to ask NIOSH to do anything yet. I 

5 think we just want to get a sense and then 

6 come back to the Board and discuss.

7 MEMBER MUNN: That's true. But I 

8 think even a group like ours needs to continue 

9 to be mindful of the fact that you can destroy 

10 what you're trying to do by imposing too many 

11 administrative activities on it. And we don't 

12 want to get to the point where we are 

13 recommending so many administrative oversights 

14 that the work doesn't get done. We have to 

15 realize that we have a responsibility to the 

16 claimants, maintain a balancing act here 

17 that's reasonable but still fair and 

18 comprehensive for their sake.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, fair and 

20 comprehensive and scientifically defensible 

21 and all that. I mean because that's the issue 

22 if -- and that's the question about sort of 
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1 what's an acceptable level of errors because 

2 people we hear that come to the committee, 

3 come to the full Board meetings and they say 

4 my husband, wife, whatever, had this cancer

5 and you assessed it at this and here's the 

6 report, and you have the wrong cancer 

7 selected. Those are ones we get. Now that's 

8 going to happen.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, certainly 

10 there are cases where we do a surrogate 

11 target.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, but 

13 sometimes it was erroneous. I mean I've had a 

14 couple cases of that, yes. But that's the 

15 ones that come to the Board.

16 MR. FARVER: That's a give-me. 

17 That shouldn't make it through.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's a very --

19 MR. HINNEFELD: That's right. 

20 That should not make it through. But I mean -

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That kind of 

22 error is unacceptable. Zero tolerance, right, 
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1 or whatever? I don't know.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: I would think --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But other 

4 errors certainly are going to happen, but 

5 they're acceptable. You know, we kind of 

6 accept that -- and we don't want to, like 

7 Wanda said, waste a lot of energy and your 

8 dose reconstruction team's time chasing down 

9 these two millirem issues for over -- you 

10 know. But I think we're all kind of saying 

11 the same things.

12 I mean the examples I would use --

13 Doug gave out some examples, I'm thinking of 

14 the ones from I think it's the eleventh -- the 

15 last set of cases we just picked. I haven't 

16 even opened those cases, but I already have 

17 three in mind that when I selected them I 

18 said, what the heck is going on here. I think 

19 you had the same reaction. They were Paducah 

20 and Portsmouth. They were all less than one 

21 year, and they were compensable. You know 57, 

22 80 percent. So how did those get past even 
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1 this high triage? It seems to me that that --

2 MR. FARVER: Yes, I don't know.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. FARVER: I haven't looked at 

5 them yet.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. We 

7 haven't looked at them. But I mean that's the 

8 --

9 MR. KATZ: We don't know if they 

10 are a problem, yet.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm pretty sure 

12 they're a problem. How could they not be a 

13 problem?

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, it could be 

15 a large number of basal cell carcinomas. 

16 People that were at a gaseous diffusion plant 

17 -- we would only have enough -- on the case 

18 and if it had a large number of --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So even with 

20 that, you're saying even though it's less than 

21 250 days you would still by the policy --

22 (Simultaneous speakers.)
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: The number of 

2 basal cell carcinomas --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I know. I 

4 know.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: It doesn't take 

6 much.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. FARVER: We've seen them with, 

9 what 70 or so, or more?

10 MR. HINNEFELD: We've had them 

11 with a 99. We had one with 99.

12 MR. ULSH: I recall 50.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. We had one 

14 with 99.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And that's 

16 probably what it is. So then it ends up being 

17 in another box for us to consider which are 

18 these inconsistencies. Let's put that in our 

19 250 day work group for instance, you know. Is 

20 that really equivalent to a criticality 

21 situation, you know? You only needed five 

22 days of work to --
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, let's leave 

2 that 250 days.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I know. 

4 I'm just -- but anyway and maybe that was 

5 flagged and they did say and they solved.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: See the ones you 

7 showed me. I remember you showed me three of 

8 them that seemed to be puzzling, and they 

9 puzzled me as well. But I have not opened 

10 them up.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And they 

12 probably are a skin cancer, yes. You're 

13 probably right. Multiple skin cancers.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: I can't see what 

15 else they would be, and even then I would 

16 guess we would have to have a fairly healthy 

17 model for assigning the skin dose during those 

18 years to get them to those levels, I would 

19 think, but I don't even know, I haven't looked 

20 at it, and I'm not as conversant with 

21 everything we do as others.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: What do you think 

2 of the suggestion of pulling out examples? I 

3 don't propose that we go out and do this. I 

4 don't know if you -- if SC&A is equipped and 

5 has time to do that. But just off the matrix, 

6 let's just say, "Hey, these look like -- from 

7 what we wrote in the matrix these look like 

8 the kinds of things that might take a careful 

9 look."

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's what I 

11 was trying to understand.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And things like 

13 that which would give -- you know, it's much 

14 better to look at something concrete.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: It's a decent 

16 idea, but how do you track it back?

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Track it back 

18 where?

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There's no 

20 documentation. How do you track it back? You 

21 said go to the people --

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, what I would 
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1 do is I would go to -- I don't know if I would 

2 go to the specific one whose name was on it. 

3 I would go to the team leaders and our OCAS 

4 reviewers and I would say, okay, now look. 

5 Here's a case where this was in a final dose 

6 reconstruction report. It would seem to me 

7 that it doesn't belong there. What do I not 

8 understand here? Is there -- did it just slip 

9 out? Is there something I should know that I 

10 don't know? What is it I don't understand 

11 about this? Because I don't know that my 

12 judgment would be a lot different than yours 

13 because I talk to you guys a lot more than I 

14 actually look at dose reconstruction. And so 

15 I don't know that my judgment would be a lot 

16 more than yours.

17 MR. FARVER: That's true.

18 MEMBER MUNN: I know.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: In terms of what's 

20 acceptable and a person who is doing a dose 

21 reconstruction or a person who is reviewing a 

22 dose reconstruction might have a really 
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1 different view on some things than I do and 

2 might be explaining something that's not 

3 occurring to me. Or they might say, well, it 

4 just slipped out. Or they might say something 

5 else I haven't thought of.

6 So I would like them to at least 

7 have and I would like to pursue that avenue of 

8 questioning with the people who do the work 

9 whether they're dose reconstructors or OCAS 

10 reviewers for certain concrete examples and 

11 say, in this instance, what happened. It 

12 would seem to me that this wouldn't be in a 

13 final dose reconstruction. Would you explain 

14 why it's okay or what happened or anything 

15 like that? If we keep getting, well, it 

16 slipped out, it slipped out, it slipped out, 

17 then that has to do with how the control is 

18 being executed, and then we have to rethink 

19 that and figure out why is the control not 

20 being executed any better.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think it's a 

22 worthwhile idea. Part of what my hesitation 
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1 is that, you know, if you're going back to 

2 look for the peer review sheets that's a 

3 different --

4 MR. HINNEFELD: I wouldn't 

5 necessarily do that.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, but I mean 

7 just discussing it you could get a sort of 

8 defensive kind of posture.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I'm getting used 

10 to it, Mark.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I know. 

12 It's true. I'm not saying it's not valuable. 

13 But I'm saying the first question I would try 

14 to find out is do some of these DR checklists 

15 exist for some of these cases we reviewed.

16 MR. FARVER: That's what we want 

17 to find out. We could pick out ten case 

18 examples --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Ask for the 

20 documentation --

21 MR. FARVER: And we get the 

22 numbers, the case numbers, and you can go and 
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1 say, why is it this way.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, all I would 

3 need is the case numbers.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. FARVER: Would you like us to 

6 do that?

7 MEMBER MUNN: It would seem to me 

8 that ten might be a bit of a high number if 

9 you're really going to do this to the level 

10 that I thought we were talking about which is 

11 pretty deep down in the weeds. But a half 

12 dozen maybe. Five or six.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't know 

14 how. I mean maybe is it worthwhile pulling 

15 the -- yes, maybe pull all the cases together 

16 and then, if you can, out of the cases that we 

17 have -- I guess we're sticking with the first 

18 100 cases.

19 MR. FARVER: That was my next 

20 question.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: You know I 
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1 actually would -- I think it would be more 

2 informative --

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I think 

4 so, too.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: -- because in the 

6 later groupings where of course the DR reviews 

7 had been done in the later groupings --

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: -- we have kind of 

10 been focusing on more recent claims.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think so, 

12 too. I was just asking because our follow-up 

13 for the Board is for the first 100 cases. But 

14 I think we can broaden our selection.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Well, there's 

16 another issue, and that's the time involved in 

17 reviewing them.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

19 MEMBER MUNN: And then having us 

20 hear the review. We probably don't want to 

21 hold up the letter on the first 100 cases. 

22 But --
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

2 MEMBER MUNN: -- we could include, 

3 incorporate in the letter the fact that --

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That we're 

5 testing this. Yes.

6 MEMBER MUNN: -- is the result of 

7 what we're seeing.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

9 MR. FARVER: Five cases out of the 

10 first 100?

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I'd say --

12 I think we should still -- don't restrict 

13 yourself to the first 100 or what I was going 

14 to ask is maybe up through --

15 MR. FARVER: Ninth set? Eighth 

16 set?

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Eighth set 

18 because that's where we're kind of at. 

19 Through the eighth set and, again, I would ask 

20 if you can produce, if you can pull out all 

21 the QC cases and then highlight five or six 

22 that you want to review in depth. Is that 
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1 possible?

2 MR. FARVER: It's probably easier 

3 just to pick five or ten.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

5 MR. FARVER: Because I think if we 

6 just pick all of them we're going to have a 

7 lot.

8 MEMBER MUNN: Well, if you have --

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The reason I'm 

10 saying that is I want to make sure that we get 

11 sort of representation of -- I'm not saying 

12 pick five or six to follow up on. I'm saying 

13 show the Subcommittee all of them and then --

14 do you think that's difficult to go through 

15 and flag all of them and then pick --

16 MR. FARVER: Yes.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- propose your 

18 five or six?

19 MR. FARVER: Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

21 MR. FARVER: I think you might 

22 want to just start --
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, how are 

2 you going to find your five or six? Let me 

3 ask that.

4 MR. FARVER: Basically I'm going 

5 to go down through the findings list and look 

6 for ones that are like real obvious.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

8 MR. FARVER: Where the year's dose 

9 is missing or --

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I mean, Kathy 

11 went through -- Kathy apparently has done a 

12 little bit of this already, possibly for the 

13 first five sets where she's identified some of 

14 these. Is that right, Kathy?

15 MS. BEHLING: That's correct. I 

16 have.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So?

18 MS. BEHLING: I took the matrix 

19 and went through, and I actually marked up the 

20 matrix on the first five sets.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you've got 

22 half the work, at least, the preliminary work 
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1 done on that. I would ask if you could do 

2 that and then out of that pick. Come back to 

3 us and say, here's the whole list. Here's the 

4 six we propose to --

5 MR. FARVER: See, my idea was to 

6 pull out ones that were very obvious.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, let's --

8 if that's the final result, that's fine. I 

9 just want to see --

10 MR. FARVER: I mean, there are 

11 going to be ones that are going to be more 

12 questionable.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

14 MR. FARVER: I mean, if you find 

15 ones that are very obvious that should have 

16 been caught, the wrong origin was used, 

17 something like that, that's pretty obvious.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and I also 

19 -- I want to see the nature of all of them. 

20 You know what I'm saying? I don't want to 

21 just see here's the obvious ones, but then

22 there are some that it was a minor deficiency 
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1 and they made a decision but it's not 

2 documented. You know, they made a decision 

3 not to include it and not to kick it back to 

4 DR, but it was --

5 MR. FARVER: My thoughts -- this 

6 was just going to be a first stab at it when 

7 you take some of the obvious ones and go look 

8 them up and then see where it takes you. Then 

9 you go look for the ones that are more 

10 subjective.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not sure 

12 this won't be our only stab at it, you know, 

13 that's why I'm --

14 MR. FARVER: I don't know. I mean 

15 if you want we'll go flag all the ones --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I still think 

17 Kathy's made a --

18 MR. FARVER: -- that we believe 

19 are QA.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think Kathy 

21 has made an initial stab at that already with 

22 the first five sets.
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1 MR. FARVER: Okay.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You can just go 

3 sixth, seventh, and eighth and do that and 

4 then pick out, and I think you're right. Pick 

5 out some of those ones that we've been talking 

6 about a lot lately, you know, the obvious ones 

7 like how could three people miss this that all 

8 bioassay was considered and clearly it was 

9 right there that they had bioassay. You know, 

10 things like that. But I just want to see the 

11 nature of all the other ones so that we --

12 MR. KATZ: If I could just say 

13 something. You want to understand how well QC 

14 is working for a variety of different kinds of 

15 problems.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. That's 

17 what I was saying.

18 MR. KATZ: It doesn't work to just 

19 do the simple ones because you want to know 

20 how well it's working for more complex 

21 situations, too.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. FARVER: I understand that. I 

2 was just going to look for the obvious ones 

3 first.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The obvious 

5 ones are certainly good. Yes, I agree because 

6 they'll be clear for us to -- have the more 

7 clear cut ones when we're talking to the 

8 people, too. Yes. But I think we want to see 

9 them all.

10 MR. FARVER: And you want us to 

11 provide all of them, or do you want us to 

12 provide all of them and then choose five or 

13 six or ten that we feel are representative?

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The second. 

15 Provide all of them and then choose the ones 

16 that you think are representative of overall.

17 MR. FARVER: How many do you want 

18 us to select?

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I say five to 

20 ten and leave it up to --

21 MR. FARVER: Okay.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I wouldn't go 
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1 more than ten, though. Is that reasonable, 

2 Wanda?

3 MEMBER MUNN: Yes, it certainly is 

4 to me. I cannot imagine that you are going to 

5 have more than a half dozen egregious 

6 oversights that we need --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I think 

8 we have a lot that will be similar, too. So 

9 if you can kind of look at it and say, oh, 

10 we've got these kinds of categories.

11 MR. FARVER: That's why I said 

12 representative.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's why I 

14 asked to show the overall. So I think you 

15 have the idea. So is that an okay -- is the 

16 task done with that?

17 MR. FARVER: Yes.

18 MR. KATZ: That's a good thing 

19 when we're here. That's what the Work Group 

20 meetings are for.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Subcommittee.

22 MR. KATZ: Subcommittee, too.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

2 MR. FARVER: We'll have you 

3 something for the next meeting.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Alright. 

5 Then let's go back to or go to, yes, back to 

6 it. I guess the first 100 cases report. So 

7 that kind of -- so we've got at least a little 

8 better handle on the QC process and follow-up 

9 action.

10 The second item I had in here was 

11 this -- and most of these come out either from 

12 sort of a combination of the findings that you 

13 just went over or maybe a little expansion on 

14 a few of them. But they're very similar. 

15 Appropriate use and consideration of 

16 information provided by the claimant, workers, 

17 and the public. Use worker information. 

18 Don't just -- this is -- sort of just talking 

19 to you.

20 But these are some claims not only 

21 by myself but others. You know, it's the 

22 question of are you really using this worker 
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1 information. When you say address the worker 

2 comments, are they being addressed or -- let 

3 me give an example. In the DR report if 

4 there's incidents that the person mentions in 

5 the CATI, and we've had this come up in a 

6 couple of them, the way that it was addressed 

7 was to add a line in the DR report that says, 

8 a claimant favorable approach was used for 

9 internal dose assessment, and therefore all 

10 incidents are considered bounded by this 

11 approach.

12 Did anybody ever really consider 

13 the incidents or did you just throw that line 

14 in there and say -- and this is my -- going 

15 back to John's comment earlier. This cures 

16 all ills. You know, this sort of --

17 MR. HINNEFELD: I understand 

18 that's been used, and it's not what I intended 

19 when I sent the instruction --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: -- that comments 

22 in the CATI should be explained. You need --
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1 the intention of addressing the findings or 

2 the comments, the information in the CATI, is 

3 to make it clear to the claimant that you paid 

4 attention during the interview and that you're 

5 utilizing it.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: So that's the 

8 point. And so if you say all incidents are 

9 covered by this approach, that doesn't tell 

10 them anything.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: So that doesn't 

13 really fit the bill for what I thought we were 

14 trying to accomplish. So I guess that's an 

15 action, maybe a further action on our part to 

16 make sure that we're careful about that, and 

17 it may be a checklist or instruction of when 

18 you're doing a -- it really belongs in the 

19 instructions for doing a dose reconstruction. 

20 Read the freaking CATI and make sure that the 

21 person understands that what they told you is 

22 covered in the dose reconstruction.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And I'm not 

2 sure. And this goes -- we've gone around on 

3 this certainly. But this does go back to if 

4 an incident is mentioned at what point would 

5 it be worthy of pulling the string.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And often if 

8 you started doing that then you could end up 

9 with a research project on every case.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So I understand 

12 that there's this balance.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: There has to be 

14 some sort of --

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, there's 

16 this balancing act. So I don't want to leave 

17 the wrong impression on that. I mean, I 

18 understand that issue. But I think -- and 

19 this is also just from the people receiving 

20 this on the claimant's side if they have the 

21 impression that you're just giving them lip 

22 service, so to speak, then that's not good for 
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1 the program. It's not what you --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, and even 

3 though that's going to knock down the quality 

4 approach, it's really focusing on the 

5 customer's needs, the customer's info.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this does 

7 overlap with quality assurance issues.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: It does overlap 

9 with that, and that's a hard concept in our 

10 path because what the customer really wants is 

11 the dose reconstruction is above 50 percent.

12 MEMBER MUNN: Absolutely.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: If I were doing 

14 it, that's what I would want if I were a 

15 claimant.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Of course.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: And so we're never 

18 going to --

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So you're never 

20 going to make your customer --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: But at the very 

22 minimum you know the customer should 
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1 understand what was done and should feel like 

2 we've fulfilled our part of the deal. We took 

3 their information. We found as much 

4 information as we could, and despite that we 

5 couldn't get, you know, show the causation. 

6 So that's kind of what I would think should be 

7 done because that's kind of the way this law 

8 was designed was that we would do the 

9 technical work for the claimant and they're 

10 claiming this occupational illness.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: So they wouldn't 

13 have to do that. That's the way it's 

14 designed. We should be trying to find those 

15 things to do.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Let me just 

17 say. You said that might be an action on our 

18 part. I don't think we should slip into 

19 actions. I just want to go through some of 

20 this kind of discussion.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And maybe 
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1 stimulate thoughts for Wanda and other 

2 Subcommittee members to kind of react to this 

3 so that we can pull product back to the Board.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Okay.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I don't think -

6 - I think it's preliminary to take action on 

7 anything now.

8 MR. KATZ: Just something to note 

9 about that though, too, is that Mike's group, 

10 Outreach, if you look at the evaluation plan 

11 there, they're going to look into -- that's 

12 part of the plan to investigate that whole 

13 question thoroughly.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and there 

15 are a couple things in there.

16 MR. KATZ: Not just for CATI but 

17 other sources.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: There are a 

19 couple things in here that as we go on that 

20 are going to overlap with Mike's Work Group 

21 I'm sure.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, we might 

2 be able to even say in the letter that the 

3 Worker Outreach Work Group is currently 

4 working on this.

5 Item B-- there is interview the 

6 workers as experts. This is something that 

7 comes up from some of the Worker Outreach 

8 stuff and from other places the question of --

9 well, this is just a question of considering 

10 all workers' input as -- you know, how is it 

11 being considered? Is it really being valued, 

12 I guess? And, you know, whether you're 

13 interviewing Roger Falk about the NDRP or 

14 whether you're interviewing an operator with 

15 40 years experience at the gaseous diffusion 

16 plant working the cells.

17 I mean they certainly have 

18 different things to offer you, but they might 

19 both have valuable information to offer. And 

20 I'm not sure that there's always -- at least 

21 in the way interviews are conducted, I'm not 

22 sure that we're always or NIOSH is always 
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1 trying to do those in an equal fashion, I 

2 guess, is the way to say it.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: This is not so 

4 much a dose reconstruction specific finding, 

5 then. Right? Because really on a particular, 

6 any individual dose reconstruction, we really 

7 are just probably interviewing the claimant.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's right.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: So this is how in 

10 terms of building the approaches for doing 

11 dose reconstruction is related.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. So this 

13 really does delve into the worker outreach 

14 kind of side.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I'm not 

16 saying anything. 

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And may not be 

18 long in this letter or whatever.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And then I just 

21 think I talked a little bit about the balance. 

22 And that was my example, yes. I just went 
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1 through some of it.

2 The second paragraph, these are 

3 just my observations on this. Some indicators 

4 of this problem may be -- and, Stu, I've gone 

5 over this in this meeting since some of this 

6 is not very new to you. But I was looking for 

7 a sort of metrics of is this really broken or 

8 is it just my perception or what? 

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I think the 

10 unfortunate part here is the perception that 

11 we gave to claimants that their coworkers are 

12 going to be able to explain a lot that's 

13 really going to help us give them a numerical 

14 dose reconstruction. You know, as a general 

15 rule, if somebody tells us something in an 

16 interview, we believe what they're telling us. 

17 So we don't have to go get another employee to 

18 confirm their account, you know, that person's 

19 account.

20 But the issue comes down to what 

21 does the person tell you. What can a person 

22 tell you in the interview? Either that person 
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1 or a coworker, what can they tell you about 

2 exposure at the site? They can explain to you 

3 conditions. They can explain to you of said 

4 conditions, basically some things like that.

5 But they're going to be able to 

6 explain things that they can see, hear, touch, 

7 smell, things like that. They're not really 

8 going to be able to give you information 

9 about-- the radiation exposures were such. It 

10 would be very unusual for someone to say there 

11 was this incident where we all received our 

12 annual dose in a particular incident. I mean, 

13 that may happen once and a while.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I agree with 

15 that part of it. But I think that might be a 

16 little short-sighted in that having done a lot 

17 of these worker -- I mean they can tell you 

18 process stuff. They can tell you stuff that 

19 went on on the shop floor that wasn't the 

20 operational protocol --

21 MR. HINNEFELD: What they'll tell 

22 you --
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- that your 

2 health physicists are telling you.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Exactly. What the 

4 health physicist managers will tell you is the 

5 rules were this, and everything worked this 

6 way.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly.

8 MR. HINNEFELD: That's what 

9 they'll say.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And they --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: People on the shop 

12 floor will say, well this is something --

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: -- Yes, well, 

14 that ain't quite true.

15 MR. HINNEFELD: That's exactly 

16 right.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: So that's true, 

19 and I think, again, it speaks to the 

20 techniques that are done that are adopted to 

21 do dose reconstruction. It happens though. 

22 It certainly happens on occasion that a 
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1 claimant tells us something that says holy 

2 crap. That is something we would have 

3 completely missed, and we'd better go chase 

4 that down. That happens.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: That's not real 

7 common.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Normally they'll 

10 say, these things happened, and we'll say, 

11 certainly, we certainly expected those things.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And I'm 

13 not saying that I would have expected a lot of 

14 these follow-ups, but to -- I think you said a 

15 handful of these experts were ever contacted 

16 out of 20,000 or whatever CATIs.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You know, it 

19 just raises the question of whether in some 

20 instances especially with survivors and 

21 things, you know, you're not going to get 

22 anything from the claimant. So really most of 
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1 these survivors are saying --

2 MR. HINNEFELD: The survivor 

3 claims, the survivors are at a real 

4 disadvantage if there's not any information 

5 there.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But sometimes 

7 they did indicate other individuals that could 

8 be contacted, and they weren't.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Right.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So then why are 

11 you doing the interview? Why are we wasting 

12 those resources if we're not trying to get 

13 anything from it?

14 MEMBER MUNN: But, Mark did we not 

15 in our Procedures Subcommittee's review of the 

16 CATI? Did we not address this there, and did 

17 we not request and receive a slight change in 

18 the wording of the information that goes to 

19 the claimant that specifies that they may not 

20 -- that we're not assured? Please don't 

21 assume that all these people will be 

22 contacted.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. But we 

2 still asked that they can provide names.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We did qualify 

5 a little more so there wasn't the expectation.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, we tried to 

7 remove the expectation that we would contact 

8 the coworkers.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Which is fine. 

10 But I'm saying that they're --

11 MR. HINNEFELD: Your point, 

12 though, is that, okay, even if you don't have 

13 the expectations, keep an eye out for 

14 situations where you really should.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. Right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: And that's 

17 probably a broader question than I can really 

18 speak much to here in the room.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. And the 

20 thing that really flags it for me is the

21 percentage, the very low percentage that were 

22 ever contacted off of these things, and, like 
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1 I said, why -- if my concern from that 

2 standpoint, well, number one, my concern would 

3 be I think you can get some useful information 

4 from these people especially if considered in 

5 aggregate. I think I get into that later.

6 But number two is if -- I guess I 

7 said that already. If you're not going to use 

8 it, why bother putting these people through --

9 because they -- I doubt very much you're going 

10 to get from survivors very useful information 

11 in a CATI anyway.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I mean 

13 you'll hear -- I mean there are family stories 

14 that you hear that sometimes are helpful in 

15 helping give a better picture of the person's 

16 work and, for instance, how much they were 

17 there. How many hours they were at the site?

18 MR. FARVER: Sometimes you'll 

19 hear, they'll describe incidents that happened 

20 on a certain day.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

22 MR. FARVER: And then if they go 
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1 and list their supervisor or coworkers, you 

2 would think maybe if you contacted the 

3 supervisor or coworkers they might have 

4 additional information like the person we 

5 talked about earlier, the missing bioassay 

6 data. Well, if they have enlisted their 

7 foreman and coworkers, maybe their coworkers 

8 were involved, maybe they submitted bioassay.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

10 MR. FARVER: So the information is 

11 there sometimes. It's not always there.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, again, it's 

14 difficult because you have to choose the --

15 how much research you're going to do.

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly, and I 

17 did note that balance in there that it's not 

18 easy but some -- you know, my reason for 

19 raising was just some of these indicators 

20 seemed to be to me that something needs to be 

21 done a little further, and I'm not saying that 

22 certainly it's not all. It's not none. I 
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1 don't think it's none. That's the thing.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Number two, 

4 just to go through these and finish off. I 

5 think I'm getting tired. I don't know about 

6 the rest of you. Not apparent how the 

7 comments from the Worker Outreach meetings are 

8 being considered, and it's not apparent NIOSH 

9 is -- Alright.

10 And this goes back to my -- this 

11 is the Worker Outreach thing really, but it's 

12 the same question of considering these 

13 comments, actually using the comments. And 

14 one thing we ask them and I'm sure this is 

15 Worker Outreach action, but I'll just -- just 

16 for discussion. One thing we had talked a 

17 long time ago was if you get comments from 

18 these Worker Outreach meetings, how they are

19 dispositioned. What happens to them?

20 MR. KATZ: That's what the Worker 

21 Outreach group is going to be examining.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And the old 
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1 database I thought started to track some of 

2 that WISPR database. It actually started to 

3 have every comment and how it was being 

4 dispositioned. It was getting a little 

5 unwieldy, I think, was one problem.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Now it's been 

8 replaced, and the new database has nothing to 

9 track comments, as far as I interpret it. It 

10 seems to have the meetings and then you click 

11 on a meeting and you get the minutes. But I 

12 don't see any comments sort of lumped out. 

13 Now maybe I'm not -- maybe there's more to the 

14 database than I saw. Yes. But at any rate, 

15 yes, I think that's it. Right?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I thought there 

17 was an expectation that there would be some --

18 the problem with WISPR was that everything 

19 anybody ever said at the worker health 

20 meetings was put in as a comment.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: So you have this 
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1 whole hundreds and hundreds of comments, many 

2 of which you can't respond to because they're 

3 talking about their particular history or 

4 their particular cancer or things like that, 

5 and there's no answer to that.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Exactly.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And there's no 

8 question and nothing to ask for an answer.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: But I could be 

11 mistaken. Maybe it's an enhancement that 

12 we're working on. But I thought we were going 

13 to do something with the tracking.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, and at the 

15 last meeting, Larry indicated where the new 

16 database was, and he actually gave me the link 

17 to get to it and stuff, and I was playing with 

18 it a little during break at the last meeting, 

19 and, you know, it appeared to me that, maybe 

20 I'm wrong, but I didn't seem to find 

21 individual comments tracked in any way.

22 And yet I agree with you on the 
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1 other side, Stu, as part of the challenge in 

2 these Worker Outreach meetings. We're 

3 definitely getting to Worker Outreach topics 

4 here, but part of the challenge there is just 

5 to sort of how do you manage the meeting so 

6 that you're getting comments of overall 

7 applicability sort of rather than people 

8 venting about their case and you may have to -

9 - you're probably going to get some of both.

10 But even if you had to address all 

11 comments in the database, some of them could 

12 be this is a personal dose reconstruction 

13 issue. It won't change any procedure. But we 

14 did talk with the claimant at the time of the 

15 meeting, blah, blah, blah, you know, something 

16 like that. It doesn't have to be that we 

17 changed the site profile because of this 

18 comment. So just something that says what did 

19 we do to it or we considered this and it had 

20 no bearing or effect on that.

21 So anyway that was just -- I'll 

22 just go down these. I don't expect responses 
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1 on all these. But the third one is the CATI. 

2 This is the aggregate data for the CATI 

3 question. Searchable CATI database does not 

4 exist, or if they exist it's not available for 

5 review by the Board. I'm getting mixed 

6 information on this. I was under the 

7 impression that there was some way to search 

8 aggregate CATI information, but Larry insisted 

9 to me that there isn't.

10 MEMBER MUNN: What would you 

11 search it for?

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, you know, 

13 I would search it for like if I was working on 

14 an AWE site, you could search for all the 

15 claims from one site because a lot of them are 

16 small. Look at all the claims for one site 

17 and look at their incident field if they 

18 reported any incidents. Look at the exposure 

19 fields that they reported. Look at the 

20 radionuclides they reported.

21 If you had Chapman Valve reporting 

22 enriched uranium, you know, it might flag 
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1 something. If they reported thorium and 

2 nobody knew anything that that even existed.

3 MEMBER MUNN: I'm envisioning a 

4 room full of data entry people trying to fill 

5 in the details from all of the CATIs that 

6 we've had.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They're already 

8 --

9 MR. ULSH: They're already in 

10 there.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: They're in there.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: They're logged

13 in while they're interviewing them, right? 

14 It's authorized already.

15 MR. ULSH: What's not there, I 

16 don't think, is the search ability.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Right.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The interface, 

19 right? Yes.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: You can't do a key 

21 word search.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But someone told 
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1 me that that existed, but I don't know.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: We could. We 

3 would have to have our TST write it, you know, 

4 write to query. But they could --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And maybe 

6 that's what was happening -- maybe people were 

7 making requests and they were done on a case8 by-case basis or something.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: They could pull 

10 all the CATIs from Simonds Saw.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: Our TST would do 

13 that. They would have to do it and write that 

14 code that they would pull it and then you 

15 would get the form, you know, the CATI form 

16 for each of the things. Now, but there's no -

17 - there's not a --

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But then I 

19 would also take credit for that. As a 

20 programmer, you're not taking credit for that 

21 if you're doing that.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: You could pull 
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1 those up --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You would say 

3 in your site profile, we also look at 

4 aggregate set of data.

5 (Simultaneous speakers.)

6 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm sorry to 

8 talk --

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, I was just 

10 saying that we could -- maybe it's right when 

11 you're looking back at these site profiles at 

12 some point, and, for instance, we've got 

13 comments or new comments it might be the time, 

14 say, as part of this that we are going to 

15 revise the thing anyway that we'll look 

16 through the aggregate comments. It has to be 

17 a site where you have a manageable number.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I agree with 

19 that. Hanford would be difficult.

20 MR. HINNEFELD: You couldn't do 

21 Hanford, Savannah River. Huge plants where 

22 you've got thousands and thousands of them.
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1 MR. FARVER: Get a sample.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You could do a 

3 sample. There may be methods even for those 

4 sites.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: You could look 

6 them and say, is there some stuff being 

7 described here that describes things that the 

8 site profile doesn't address or doesn't cover. 

9 I mean, there is some stuff you could do 

10 there on that. But that is sort of a --

11 that's a programmatic thing that I don't know 

12 where it fits exactly. I think the best place 

13 for it would be a time when one of these 

14 things is up for review that -- or revision 

15 would be the time to do and that's when --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Or when you're 

17 first developing a profile, I would think.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: When you're first 

19 developing, if we ever develop any more 

20 profiles, and we're doing it for a place where 

21 we've got claims.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Then that might be 

2 a time to actually go, okay, what kind of 

3 commonalty are we seeing people describing.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But I'm saying, 

5 and maybe I'm just curious, if it's ever been 

6 used that way because that would -- that to me 

7 is back to that fundamental heading of my 

8 category here, Use of the Worker Data. So if 

9 you were actually using this worker data in 

10 aggregate, tell us. Take credit for it and 

11 say, here's the instances where we used it.

12 MR. KATZ: I can say at the very 

13 beginning, at the outset, of this program that 

14 was a concept behind the CATI, the whole CATI.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

16 MR. KATZ: The data development 

17 businesses. The thought we had originally was 

18 that we would be able to slowly accrue data 

19 that would help us give a good picture of each 

20 of these sites from those individual 

21 interviews. That that would be one source.

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Especially for 
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1 the sites where we had nothing, like no data 

2 and little history, and I think that's where 

3 they have a real utility.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright. But 

6 anyway that might be something to follow up 

7 with the team. I'm not making an action, but 

8 just if it is being done in any way.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: I won't say.

10 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I'm just -

11 MR. HINNEFELD: I really don't 

12 know.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: The outreach 

15 tracking system does have the capacity for 

16 tracking action items. It does have the 

17 capability of tracking. The one meeting I 

18 happened to open doesn't have any actions from 

19 the meeting. But there is an area in here 

20 where actions --

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Tracking 

22 comment actions.
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: Well, actions. It 

2 would be comments. It would be a comment that 

3 we should do something to, either we should 

4 answer --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: -- or we should 

7 take some action because of the comment that 

8 was made. It does have the capability to do 

9 it. At the meeting I had it opened up and 

10 didn't have any actions in it. So I don't 

11 know if it's populated, or if it's populated 

12 to any great extent or anything, or if they 

13 were starting the process.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is this like a 

15 separate document?

16 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes, when you 

17 click on the hourglass, it brings up like some 

18 stuff and the location and the audience.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I saw minutes 

20 and presentations.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: There's an 

22 hourglass. If you bring up -- when you bring 
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1 up -- you pick a site and you click on that 

2 site, it will open all the meetings. Over in 

3 the left-hand column, there's a column with an 

4 hourglass in it or it looks like an hourglass. 

5 If you click on that icon, it opens up 

6 another sheet that's called --

7 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. So I 

8 didn't know how to use it.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: It's called 

10 Meeting Information, and that gives the 

11 meeting type, like the one I'm looking at is 

12 an SEC meeting, meeting date, location, points 

13 of contact for OCAS and our contractor, the 

14 audience, and then there's a note about it, 

15 kind of a description which right near it is 

16 the purpose of the meeting and then below 

17 there's a box with meeting-covered sites, 

18 meaning which sites we're addressing. And 

19 there's a meeting action items section which 

20 is empty. There are no actions for this one.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But is there 

22 actions and then dispositions or resolutions?
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1 MR. HINNEFELD: I don't know, but 

2 there is past due, due today, and due within 

3 the next week. Apparently, they are 

4 categories.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'll have to 

6 look at that further.

7 MR. HINNEFELD: And then there is 

8 meeting notifications, and then there are 

9 meeting files. Now those last three things 

10 are all empty in this particular meeting.

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright.

12 MR. HINNEFELD: And I don't know 

13 to the extent those -- I don't know to what 

14 extent those have been populated.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, that's 

16 good to know. And that's something that 

17 Mike's Work Group is following up on.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: The capability is 

19 there.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Let me 

21 go into just the last one, the documentation, 

22 and then we'll probably -- I was hoping to get 
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1 to the eighth set, but I think we're probably 

2 not going to go back to the eighth set at this 

3 point. Emily is saying, please no.

4 The third primary category that I 

5 had is case documentation and reporting, and I 

6 think, Stu, you covered that in your 

7 presentation, too. And I think we've talked 

8 around this quite a bit. I think the question 

9 of -- when I underline all work, I'm writing 

10 down some things, and I'm thinking: what's the 

11 limit here? What gets included? What doesn't 

12 get included? And does it depend on the type 

13 of dose reconstruction? Are there different 

14 levels for different types of cases? So all 

15 that needs to be considered, I think.

16 But I think, Stu, you even said 

17 that at this point at least the DR 

18 instructions, to the extent they still exist, 

19 are now being included. I think you've gotten 

20 away from -- according to Scott, you've gotten 

21 away from a lot of those anyway.

22 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. A lot of 
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1 those instructions came out as sort of interim 

2 changes in the procedures.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Interim, right.

4 MR. HINNEFELD: Rather than 

5 waiting for the procedure changes without 

6 those instructions and without those 

7 procedures, the instructions went away.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So to the 

9 extent they're still there.

10 MR. HINNEFELD: To the extent 

11 they're still there, and in fact what I told 

12 them is just for simplicity, if you've got any 

13 instructions that pertain to the site that 

14 you're working on, stick them in there. 

15 Because rather than concern yourself with 

16 whether you remembered to do it that way 

17 because of the procedure or you remembered to 

18 do it that way because of the instruction, you 

19 know, you don't have to worry about sorting it 

20 out that, yes, I specifically used this 

21 instruction. Because as a general rule, I 

22 think the dose reconstructors don't 
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1 necessarily refer back every time --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No. Especially 

3 if they're doing only one-site cases all the 

4 time.

5 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. They tend to 

6 focus on one site or a couple sites. So they 

7 know how to do them.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: And rather than 

10 say, well, is the guide still out there, or is 

11 it in a procedure down there to check, I said 

12 just check and see if there's a guide there. 

13 Just put it in.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

15 MR. SIEBERT: And that is 

16 presently how we are doing it.

17 MR. HINNEFELD: Thanks, Scott.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thanks.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: So I think there 

20 might be a way to come up with sort of 

21 expectations of the work that is to be shown. 

22 You're just writing your letter now. We'll 
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1 discuss that and talk about that.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

3 MR. HINNEFELD: Our reaction comes 

4 later.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And the other 

6 part of the item, I think, the way you 

7 described your DR report may actually quite 

8 nicely address some of this.

9 Because it sounds like you've broken it up 

10 into a public and technical portion.

11 MR. HINNEFELD: That was the key 

12 thing we were trying to accomplish is 

13 something that the claimant can read and 

14 something that a reviewer can go through.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So this might 

16 be something that we can say we propose this 

17 sort of approach, and a final draft is ready 

18 to be released by NIOSH. I think that's all I 

19 -- at the very bottom I also include -- the 

20 last line on this second page or third page 

21 there is what changes or what has changed in 

22 the NIOSH program as a result of findings, 
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1 that any findings result in PERs. That was 

2 just that sort of question to our group here.

3 I think one thing we said we 

4 wanted to add in this letter was what positive 

5 changes occurred in the NIOSH program as a 

6 result of our first 100 audit cases, and I 

7 just ran -- quite frankly, I didn't have time 

8 to do this, so actually I just wanted to put a 

9 place holder that we need to put something 

10 about this. I wasn't clear whether any 

11 findings of ours related to any PERs.

12 And I don't know, Kathy, if you 

13 know that or --

14 MS. BEHLING: No, I don't know 

15 that. I'm not sure. No.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: I think there are 

17 certainly lines that are related.

18 MEMBER MUNN: I think so, too.

19 MR. HINNEFELD: But I don't recall 

20 --

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm not sure 

22 we're going to figure out which came first, 
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1 the chicken or the egg.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: That's exactly 

3 right.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But we might be 

5 able to phrase it to say that findings in 

6 these areas and as a result or in part as a 

7 result of these findings, PER reviews were 

8 done, you know, something like that.

9 MR. HINNEFELD: Yes. I mean there 

10 might be -- I would think almost certainly 

11 there are some of the findings that I think 

12 relate to PERs that were done. But whether 

13 they were the initiating factor or --

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I know. 

15 Right.

16 MR. HINNEFELD: We said when the 

17 PER came up to vote, well, that's taken care 

18 of or there's a PER out there to take care of 

19 it. I don't know what the --

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is that an 

21 impossible task for SC&A to look over the 

22 first 100 cases and consider what findings 
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1 might have been related to PERs.

2 MR. HINNEFELD: You can check PER 

3 group control documents. They're up under 

4 Control Documents. You ought to be able to 

5 see them.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

7 MS. BEHLING: I can look at that.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay.

9 MR. FARVER: Do you know how to do 

10 that, Kathy?

11 MS. BEHLING: Yes.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: She's got it 

13 covered.

14 MR. HINNEFELD: Most of the folks, 

15 not all, but a lot of the PERs are site16 specific.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: So you could kind 

19 of look for just claimants from that site.

20 MR. KATZ: It seems to me it would 

21 be important whether they instigated or 

22 influenced the results either way, they would 
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1 be important.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

3 MEMBER MUNN: I think the 

4 influence is certainly worth including in our 

5 letter.

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right.

7 MR. KATZ: That's an SC&A task.

8 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. Yes. So 

9 SC&A is going to look -- Kathy is going to 

10 look into that. Thank you, Kathy, because 

11 none of us wanted it.

12 And I'm not sure. Like I said, I 

13 wanted to put this out. It's not in letter 

14 form by any means, but I wanted to put some 

15 thoughts out for our Subcommittee. I've 

16 forwarded this. Mike has it and others. John 

17 has it. I really would value the other 

18 Subcommittee members' comments on this.

19 MEMBER MUNN: I'm sure you will 

20 get some.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. That's 

22 why I kept some of the adjectives in there 
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1 that I did because I wanted to make sure Wanda 

2 was paying attention.

3 MEMBER MUNN: I'm paying 

4 attention. You will get comments.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I told -- I 

6 forget. Earlier this morning I was telling 

7 someone that I took out a word, drastically, 

8 at one point because I knew Wanda would 

9 highlight that in yellow and send it back to 

10 me.

11 MEMBER MUNN: One more adverb out.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: But anyway, 

13 just the facts. That's what we want.

14 MEMBER MUNN: Absolutely.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Right. So this 

16 is a starting point, something to work on for

17 our Subcommittee members and send stuff as you 

18 get to it to me. But I really want to -- and 

19 I'll send out a tickler to people to get me 

20 final comments hopefully a couple weeks before 

21 the next Subcommittee meeting so I have time 

22 to kind of roll it together and bring -- the 
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1 next Subcommittee meeting my goal is to bring 

2 back a sort of draft letter in a letter format 

3 more so that we have something to deliver back 

4 to the full Board.

5 So I think that's the end of the 

6 agenda. The only other thing I would have is 

7 let's pick a date for the next meeting. I 

8 think Wanda is ahead of me there. She's 

9 looking at dates.

10 Ted, when is our next full Board 

11 meeting? January?

12 MS. HOWELL: February.

13 MR. HINNEFELD: It's February 9th, 

14 10th, something like that.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: February.

16 MR. KATZ: Yes, the next face-to17 face is February 9th, that week.

18 MR. HINNEFELD: The next phone 

19 call is what? The 8th of December?

20 MS. HOWELL: Yes.

21 MR. HINNEFELD: The 8th of 

22 December is the teleconference, and the face-
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1 to-face is the second week or about the 8th of 

2 February.

3 MR. KATZ: Are you looking for a 

4 January date, Mark? What is your --

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I think a 

6 January date, yes.

7 MEMBER MUNN: Then a December 

8 date?

9 MR. KATZ: January is going to be 

10 very busy because a lot of work groups need --

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Well, I'm 

12 worried that once you get past the first 

13 couple weeks in December it's kind of shot.

14 MR. KATZ: It gets tough.

15 MEMBER MUNN: Well, there's a --

16 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: We have one 

17 meeting on the 16th.

18 MEMBER MUNN: There's a meeting on 

19 the 16th.

20 MR. KATZ: The week before 

21 Christmas is still -- people are still 

22 working.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The TBD-6000 

2 meeting is on the 16th.

3 MEMBER MUNN: Is on the 16th.

4 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So we could put 

5 one next to that.

6 MR. HINNEFELD: The 16th of 

7 December -- are we back on December?

8 MR. KATZ: Let me go back to 

9 December. Okay. So right now I've asked. The 

10 15th you're talking about of December?

11 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No, I'm not 

12 talking --

13 MEMBER MUNN: The 17th.

14 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Do you know 

15 what? I can't do that.

16 MR. KATZ: Because I asked you 

17 that for TBD-6000 actually.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: My daughter's 

19 grandparents are coming to visit. It's their 

20 annual visit that week.

21 MR. KATZ: December 15th?

22 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.
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1 MR. KATZ: You can't do that?

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: No.

3 MR. KATZ: So you can't do that 

4 TBD-6000 either then?

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: I'm probably 

6 going to call in for it.

7 MR. KATZ: You could call in for 

8 it though?

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, but I 

10 don't want to have to call in for this.

11 MR. KATZ: Yes.

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: So that --

13 MR. KATZ: So is that a yes, 

14 though, for TBD-6000 on the 15th if you call 

15 in?

16 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Sixteenth, 

18 right. Yes.

19 MR. KATZ: The 15th. Sixteenth 

20 you already said yes.

21 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh.

22 MR. KATZ: We were talking about 
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1 having it, either changing it or having two 

2 days because that Work Group has a lot to do.

3 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes.

4 MR. KATZ: And can you do the 15th 

5 then?

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You think it 

7 will be a two-day?

8 MR. KATZ: Well, it may very well 

9 be. I mean, you know how long we spent last 

10 time we met. That was just on dealing with 

11 one site for the most part. Yes. Yes or no?

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: And nobody 

13 could do the 17th, the two day 16th and 17th? 

14 Is that --

15 MR. KATZ: Well, two of us are 

16 going to be there on the 14th. Then we have 

17 the 15th.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Oh. Okay.

19 MR. KATZ: So the 17th, I haven't 

20 checked on the 17th. That could be. That's a 

21 possibility, too. But the 15th would be a 

22 whole lot better for some of us.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes. I mean I 

2 think I'd probably be on and off, to be 

3 honest.

4 MR. KATZ: Okay. And then the 

5 17th would be good for you, though?

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The 17th is 

7 better because I think they're leaving on the 

8 16th. I would hate the last two days of their 

9 visit for me to be on phone calls all day.

10 MR. KATZ: Questionable. Okay. 

11 Seventeenth, yes. And Wanda?

12 MEMBER MUNN: Either day would 

13 work for me.

14 MR. KATZ: Okay.

15 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Now back to 

16 this I think we're into January.

17 MEMBER MUNN: Darn.

18 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Is there 

19 anything else scheduled in January already 

20 that you --

21 MEMBER MUNN: Not that I know of.

22 MR. KATZ: Mound is 5th and 6th 
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1 and then the 11th, 12th and 13th --

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Are you out?

3 MR. KATZ: I'm out for those three days. 

4 MR. ULSH: I am.

5 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: You're on 

6 Mound, yes.

7 MR. KATZ: Yes. So the 7th and 

8 8th of January.

9 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Yes, I mean, I 

10 could do the 7th if you wanted to roll it over 

11 into -- I don't know if it's the same people 

12 though because you're local and --

13 MR. ULSH: Might as well just put 

14 it all in one week.

15 MR. KATZ: So you want to shoot 

16 for the 7th of December, I mean of January?

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: That's fine 

18 with me. Is that Alright, Wanda? It's a good 

19 time of the year to travel from Boston.

20 MEMBER MUNN: Well, it depends on 

21 personal schedules that are going on during 

22 January that I had thought was going to be 
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1 over. But I can probably be available by 

2 phone even if that transpires.

3 MR. KATZ: Mike, are you still on?

4 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I'm still 

5 here. Now what date are you talking about?

6 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: January 7th.

7 MR. KATZ: January 7th.

8 MEMBER GIBSON: For Procedures, 

9 correct?

10 MR. KATZ: For DR.

11 MEMBER GIBSON: Yes, I'm 

12 available.

13 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: The 7th. Do 

14 you want to say -- I mean the 14th is also 

15 okay for me. But I thought if people were 

16 here for the other meeting. Like you're 

17 traveling in, so --

18 MR. KATZ: Yes. The 7th is good.

19 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Alright, the 

20 7th.

21 MR. KATZ: Okay. So let's do 

22 that. The 7th. January 7. 9:30 a.m. this 
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1 time.

2 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Didn't Wanda 

3 want 8:30 a.m.?

4 MR. KATZ: Wanda wanted 8:30 a.m., 

5 but I beat it back.

6 MEMBER MUNN: Wanda didn't want 

7 8:30 a.m.

8 MR. FARVER: 8:30 a.m. especially 

9 if she's calling in.

10 MEMBER MUNN: Yes.

11 (Laughter.)

12 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Okay. I think 

13 that's it, unless anything? Any final 

14 comments? Final thoughts of the day?

15 MR. KATZ: Thank you everybody for 

16 your hard work.

17 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Thanks.

18 MR. KATZ: Thank you everyone on 

19 the phone who hung in with us. Mike.

20 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Now we get to wait 

21 four hours for the flight.

22 MR. KATZ: Yes. Take care. Bye-bye.
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1 CHAIRMAN GRIFFON: Three hours I 

2 guess. 

3 (Whereupon, at 4:46 p.m., the above4 entitled matter was concluded.)

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