National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration noaa.gov 1

APPENDIX C: Readings and Maps

 Habitat Requirements for the Eastern Oyster

 Maryland ODST Maps

 Virginia ODST Maps

 Harris Creek Public Hearing – Oyster Sanctuaries














 National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration noaa.gov 1

Harris Creek

Talbot County Maryland

Oyster Decision Support Tool Maps






 National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration noaa.gov 1

Lafayette River

Norfolk, Virginia

Oyster Decision Support Tool Maps
Restored Oyster Bottom 2015
Harvest and Leasing – Restricted Area
Baylor Public Oyster Bottom - 2014
Private Oysters Lease - 2014
Bathymetry – Depth Countours
Dissolved Oxygen Average – June - 

August
Salinity Average April - October
Bottom Type
Shoreline Access

http://cmap.vims.edu/ShlInv/Norfolk/Norfolk_ShlInv.html
Shoreline Protection
Bank Height
Bank Stability
Riparian Land Use/Land Cover
Tidal Marshes





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 MARYLAND DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL RESOURCES 

 MARYLAND OYSTER RESTORATION 

AND AQUACULTURE DEVELOPMENT PLAN 

PUBLIC HEARING COMMENTS 

 HELD AT 

 CHESAPEAKE COLLEGE 

TODD PERFORMING ARTS CENTER 

ROUTES 213 AND 50 

WYE MILLS, MARYLAND 21679 

ON 

THURSDAY AUGUST 5, 2010 

FROM 

6:05 P.M. TO 8:30 P.M. 
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MODERATOR: MARTIN GARY, MARYLAND DEPARTMENT OF 

 NATURAL RESOURCES, FISHERIES SERVICES 

REPORTED BY: LINDA JOYCE KRALLER, NOTARY PUBLIC IN 

 AND FOR THE STATE OF MARYLAND. 

- - - 
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5

 P R O C E E D I N G S

(7:00 P.M.) 

 MR. GARY: We’ll go ahead and get started. 

And the first speaker we’re going to have is Mr. Jim 

Moloro (phonetic) and he will be followed by Captain 

Robert Newberry and Mark Connolly. And try to come up 

this side (indicating) if you don’t. We are going in 

order in which folks signed up. Mr. Moloro? And Bob 

will be next and then Mark Connolly. 

 MR. MOLORO: All right. My name is Jim 

Moloro. I’m president of the Corisca River 

Conservancy, a non-profit organization with 670 

members located down in Centreville. I am submitting 

these comments on behalf of the members of our 

organization. We have reviewed the proposed 

regulations and enthusiastically favor their adoption 

and implementation. 

 These regulations, long overdue, provide the 
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best opportunity yet to restore a badly needed oyster 

population of the Chesapeake Bay. They, also, provide 

substantial support for watermen during the 

restoration period. In the long run, implementation 

of these regulations should greatly benefit both the 

watermen and the Bay. A healthy and prolific oyster 

population will provide a bounty for watermen who 

depend on harvesting oysters for their livelihood and 

will help restore the health of the Bay by filtering 

pollutants from the water. 

 Recent experience with managing the harvest 

of Blue Crabs from the Bay clearly demonstrates, in

our opinion, the effectiveness of this approach. 

Thank you. 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Moloro. Our next 

speaker is Captain Robert Newberry followed by Mark

Connolly and Keith McGuire. 

 CAPTAIN NEWBERRY: Good evening. I really 

don’t know where to start on a situation like this on 
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public comment but I’ve been involved with aquaculture 

since it started in Maryland here, not in the Bay 

proper, but I’ve seen how the process goes. 

 And I’m going to stand here in front of 

everybody in this room tonight and tell you this whole 

program is going to go belly up and it’s going to go 

belly up bad. It’s been too fast tracked. Bottom 

line, you’ve heard it here tonight, number one, we’ve 

got an enforcement problem in the state of Maryland. 

There’s not enough boots on the ground. 

 Every DNR officer in this room knows it. 

How are we going to enforce all these sanctuaries? 

What, are they going to pull guys from Western 

Maryland over here to do it? I don’t think so. You 

got retirement coming up, you have no DNR officers 

that can hardly enforce the laws that are there right 

now. 

 You can have all the technological things 

and advances, satellites, GPS tracking advices, unless 
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these guys have boots on the ground and have officers 

in the field, it ain’t happening. Second of all is

how this has been fast tracked. And you heard it 

right here tonight in one comment I asked. 

 I said, number one, has Army Corps of 

Engineers been involved in this? Well, they’re going 

to implement this program, they said, on September 6

th. 

Secretary Griffin has not even met with Army Corps of 

Engineers yet. He swings a hammer on this to see if 

we can get permits. And bottom line, this whole thing 

is nothing but a political play on the oysters. And 

everybody in this room knows what happens when you mix 

politics and oysters. It ain’t good. 

 We have a plan involved from the ‘50s in the 

Shell Program. I was talking with a gentleman out 

there tonight that’s older than I am, L.T. I’m sorry, 

I didn’t mean to offend you, but he commented and 

looked at the numbers on it. Back in the ‘50s when

they started the Shell Program, (indiscernible) dots, 
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they go up and down and up and down and up down. 

 Well, when everybody started harvesting them 

in the ‘70s there was a spike. Then the spike went

down. That’s because the Shell Program went down. 

Well, then you talk to them and, “Why did you kill the 

Shell Program?” And they said, “Oh, well, the dermo 

and MSX is killing the oysters.” And I said, “Well, 

is it not,” and the big word is “imbiquitous”, into

the water column which means everywhere in the Bay?” 

And they said, “Yes.” I said, “Well, the oysters you 

bring up the Bay when I oyster down to Rock Hall, they 

were fine. They lived.” I mean, anybody knows the

word “Belvedere”, Snake, all those areas up river, 

those oysters were fine. 

 Well, bottom line, they came to the point 

where, “No, we don’t want to move the oysters.” So

the population went down, less people started 

harvesting. This program would work if it was 

implemented over a long period. I don’t think any of 
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these guys in this room are going to sit there and 

when you bottom line the aquaculture business --I 

raise fish on my farm. It’s what I put into 

that fish and in this hand, what I get out of it. And 

I’ve run the numbers on oysters. I do not think 

anybody in this room is going to take and buy a bushel 

of oysters by the time you’re done raising them with 

all the work that’s involved and have to spend 80 to 

90 cents a piece for an oyster, is what it’s going to 

cost you to break even. 

 It ain’t going to work. Where they going to 

get the money from? Historically, in the state of 

Maryland, the aquaculture program that we had before, 

we had over 150 practicing aquaculturists in the state 

of Maryland. Now, we’re down to, like, 15. Bottom

line, the money failed. It all went by the way side. 

It comes down to the dollar. Where we going to get

the dollar from? We don’t have overtime to pay DNR

officers. 
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 This ten million dollars, like one gentleman 

said, it didn’t last two weeks. Ten million dollars 

is going to start an aquaculture program in this 

State? That’s a joke. They need to sit back, look at 

this, take their time on it, work with the watermen, 

show them how to do the aquaculture because I don’t

think anybody, after the 6th of September, in this room 

is going to be able to sit out there and go raise 

oyster on bottom in cage culture, float culture, 

anything. I really think DNR is really making 

political ploy out of this with that governor in 

trying to get re-elected -- 

 (Applause) 

 CAPTAIN NEWBERRY: -- on the backs of the 

state of Maryland. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: All right. Thank you, Captain 

Newberry. Our next speaker is Mark Connolly followed 

by Keith McGuire and then Paul Rybon (phonetic). 
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 MR. CONNOLLY: My name is Mark Connolly. I’m 

a Talbot County waterman. I’ve been so for, I don’t 

know, 15 years of my life. And Maryland Resources 

here, this is a joke, proposing a joke. What they’ve 

got going on here is a waste of money, a waste of tax 

payers money. 

 And if you guys, if the tax payers can’t see 

that, I feel sorry for you guys. That’s all I have to 

say about it. I think the proposal stinks. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Connolly. The next 

speaker is Keith McGuire followed by Paul Rybon. Is 

Paul is? 

 MR. RYBON: I’m waiving my -- 

 MR. GARY: Paul is going to waive. 

 MR. RYBON: -- (indiscernible). 

 MR. GARY: All right. Paul has waived. Ken 

Hastings will then be next. And then Carol Jellet 

(phonetic). 
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 MS. JELLET: I’ll pass. 

 MR. GARY: All right. Get Mr. Hastings to 

come down. Mr. McGuire? 

 MR. MCGUIRE: I’m Keith McGuire with CCA, St. 

Mary’s County. Everybody knows what CCA’s position is 

on this. CCA applauds the Governor in taking the 

initiative to get the oyster recovery started. And

we, also, applaud DNR’s efforts in defining a plan,

and Maryland Legislature for approving it. 

 But that’s not really what my comment is. 

My comment is that I’ve been participating in the 

Maryland’s Grow Oyster Program in St. Mary’s County

and Calvert County over the last couple of years. And 

it’s amazing to me to hear and see the amount of 

public support that there is for this Oyster Recovery 

Program in regular, everyday citizens, not watermen, 

not charter captains, not necessarily recreational 

fisherman. But -- 

 MR. GARY: Stop. 
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 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 

 MR. GARY: And, I apologize, Mr. McGuire. 

You have the floor. 

 MR. MCGUIRE: Thank you. My comment really 

is that I’ve observed a lot of support for the Program 

in the people who we’ve been working with through the 

Maryland Grows Oyster Program and other people in St. 

Mary’s County. Thank you. 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. McGuire. Next 

speaker is going to be Mr. Ken Hastings, and Ms. 

Jellet passed. So the next speaker after that will be 

Wayne Wilson. 

 MR. HASTINGS: Good evening. My name is Ken 

Hastings. I’m here just representing myself. I’m 

more of an environmentalist, recreational fisherman. 

I really don’t know great much about the oyster 

industry and I really don’t need to because there’s a 

whole room full of experts out here that know that.

 I came here tonight, specifically, to make 
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sure that the terms “oyster restoration” made it into 

that recording because the past decade I don’t think 

I’ve missed very many oyster meetings and it’s all 

been about the industry. Ninety-five percent of all 

the discussions from the last ten years, and certainly 

since the Oyster Advisory Commission stated in 2007, 

it’s been all about the industry. 

 We never sit down and talk intelligently and 

objectively about oyster restoration. And, I think, 

that’s a shame because, you see, I’m a stakeholder. I 

hear a lot about “you took this”, “you took that”, 

“you’re putting us out of business”, “you’re taking

our money”. There’s no entitlement here. 

 This resource is publicly owned. It’s 

managed by the Department of Natural Resources and 

they have several charters. Most bureaucracies have 

more charters than they can keep track of. But the

one I like to quote because it makes sense to me is

the Department of Natural Resources. Their job is to 
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manage the resources for all citizens for the good 

use, and best use, and enjoyment of all citizens. 

 I’m one of the citizens. I’m a stakeholder. 

It doesn’t matter if I’ve never been on an oyster 

boat. I don’t even know what a pair of tongs look 

like. I’m still a stakeholder. But the part of this 

that I’m really concerned about is the oyster 

restoration part. We’ve never had a plan before that 

made oyster restoration a priority in managing 

oysters. 

 But we don’t have any oysters, very few 

oysters. And it doesn’t matter whether you think the 

one percent number is wrong or, as Dr. Loren 

(phonetic) said, maybe .1 percent or ten percent. I 

can make a good argument that we shouldn’t be taking 

any oysters from a resource that’s so depleted that

we’re quibbling over it’s one percent or ten percent. 

 The Department of Natural Resources, I 

believe, has done a good job in trying to balance all 
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these issues. They’ve certainly been a public 

process. I think I’ve attended most of the meetings. 

And this is my second one of these just because, well, 

my wife says I don’t have a life and, I guess, she’s 

probably right about that. 

 But, I believe, the plan we have is a 

reflection of a mandate for change and it was thought 

it was going to be a change in 2007 when the 

Legislature unanimously voted to establish the Oyster 

Advisory Commission. How are you going to change 

this? It was supposed to be for the good of everyone. 

That’s what the charter does. 

 We all want new oysters, we all want to buy 

them, DNR is supposed to manage them, and in the past 

maybe they haven’t done a great job of it but right

now I’m looking at the plan I’ve ever seen. It may

not be the best plan. It may be a plan in transition. 

There may have to be things done to tweak it along the 

way. We’ve never had a plan. 
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 And someone once pointed out to me, if you 

don’t have road map of where you’re going along the

same road will take you there. But if you don’t know 

where you’re headed it doesn’t really matter how you 

go about it. You’ll get there. You’ll get somewhere. 

 I really don’t care what form the industry 

ultimately takes. I hope it’s a good form. I’ve met 

a lot of people over the last few months, a lot of 

really good people that they’re working in this 

business trying to make a living. And I can’t really 

relate to what they want but I want them to be 

successful. I want them to be prosperous and I want 

oysters to be a major economic driver for the State of 

Maryland. 

 But I want restoration to be the most 

important thing because that’s what’s closest to my

heart. And people say, “Well, you’re hard hearted. 

You didn’t hear about the oystermen.” Well, that’s

not true but there’s an entire bureaucracy out there 
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that seem to have nothing else in mind except to try 

to manage the oyster industry. 

 And I know it’s important but I want my 

share of the pie, also. So it’s not a perfect 

situation but my hat goes off to DNR for trying to 

balance all these various issues that are going on 

here and all the conflict and what not. I want to 

applaud the vision, the outstanding plan as far as it 

goes right now. And it’s just an outline. It’s going 

to be developed. 

 And without a doubt, this is the most 

comprehensive, all inclusive public process I’ve ever 

seen. And I’ve been watching regulations for a very 

long time. Thank you. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Hastings. Our next 

speaker is Wayne Wilson. Wayne will be followed by

Ms. Stephanie Westby (phonetic) and Dorsey Shockley. 

 MR. WILSON: I’d just like to say that I 
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can’t see how the sanctuaries are going to work when 

the shells they want to reclaim get silted over and

they want to restrict power dredging more and more. 

And power dredging will get the shells up in front of 

the silt but they’re not addressing how to get the 

silt stopped. 

 I mean, the government let the developers 

and all have a silt plan but it doesn’t get 

implemented until what, 2016 or something. So how 

they going to keep silt from getting on the 

sanctuaries without us working the bars? So that’s

all I got to say about that. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Wilson. Stephanie 

Westby is our next speaker followed by Dorsey Shockley 

and Carol Bean. 

 MS. WESTIE: Good evening. My name is 

Stephanie Westby and I’m a fishery scientist with the 

Chesapeake Bay Foundation. And I’m here tonight to
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speak in support of these regulations. The oyster 

plays an incredibly important ecological role in the 

Chesapeake Bay and we haven’t heard too much about 

that tonight. 

 This is an animal that filters the water and 

makes it cleaner in the Chesapeake Bay. This is an

animal that provides habitat for other species of fish 

and crabs. And the fact of the matter is, no matter 

how you slice it, we’re down to about one percent in 

our historic level of oysters. That’s one percent.

 And we need a new management strategy while 

we still have something left to protect out there in 

our Chesapeake Bay. So I agree with the strategy of 

setting aside 25 percent of the productive oyster 

reefs, again, while we still have something left out 

there so these areas may recover on their own. Some 

of them are going to take a lot of incredibly 

intensive oyster restoration efforts, hatchery 

plantings, perhaps cleaning off sediment, the whole
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nine yards in order to make this work for our 

Chesapeake Bay. 

 We are committed to that as Chesapeake Bay 

Foundation. We have incredibly dedicated constituents 

who come out and they volunteer thousands of hours of 

time in their passion every year to make it happen. 

We are committed to keeping the pressure on the State 

and on the federal government to keep those 

restoration efforts moving forward even when we do 

have these sanctuaries in place. That’s definitely

not the end of the story, for sure. 

 We know we’ve got a tremendous water quality 

problem in the Chesapeake Bay. There’s no question

about that. The oysters can help be part of that 

solution but the solution needs to be a lot broader

than that, as well. 

 The developers, the farmers, ourselves, all 

this pollution comes from tail pipes, from smoke 

stacks, from all throughout the waters and all the way 
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up from New York state and all the way up to West 

Virginia and it ends up in the Bay. Needs to be a 

holistic, collaborative effort to stop that pollution 

from coming into the Bay. 

 But the oysters need to be a part of it and 

we need to have these sanctuaries in order to let them 

fulfill their ecological role in the Bay. So I’d like 

to remind everyone, too, that these oysters are, in

fact, a public resource and they are owned equally by 

every citizen of Maryland. 

 So, I believe, that setting aside 25 percent 

of that publicly-owned resource in order to help 

improve the water quality in the Bay, and in order to 

try to help ensure a long-term sustainability of our 

oyster population is scientifically sound, it 

represents good management strategy, it’s eminently

reasonable, and it’s long overdue, and it’s actually 

in the best interest of not only the Chesapeake Bay

but all the citizens who live in Maryland and enjoy
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the Chesapeake Bay on every level. Thank you. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Ms. Westby. Our 

speaker was scheduled to be Mr. Dorsey Shockley. Is 

Mr. Shockley with us or is he waiving his -- 

 VOICE: (Indiscernible) 

 MR. GARY: Okay. He’s waiving his option. 

So our next speaker is going to be Ms. Carol Bean to 

be followed by Luchi Gilmore and then Rich Haltman.

 VOICE: Pass. 

 MS. BEAN: Wish I had a good name like Luchi. 

I just, like, want to make one comment which I heard 

Ken and Stephanie just say about this is, also, a 

public resource. And for some reason, I think they’re 

under some misconception that, you know, when my 

husband goes out and catches 12 bushel a day that 

we’re home eating 12 bushel a day. 

 The people in this room are catching oysters 

for the public, for other people who don’t have a boat 
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and who don’t go out who want to enjoy seafood which 

is why we all, you know, these guys do what they do

and why we love living here. It’s one of these great 

benefits that we have for living here. 

 So, you know, you can, well, I guess, that’s 

all I want to say. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: All right. Thank you, Ms. Bean. 

And our next speaker is Luchi Gilmore. Mr. Altman has 

passed so the next speaker will Ed Beggion. 

 MR. GILMORE: Hi, I’m Luchi Gilmore. When 

Tom, kind of, talked to me a couple years ago about

the change in direction of the oyster business, the

one thing I asked him was to not leave the watermen

out. And in this program he has severely hurt our 

chances of making a living. 

 And the next issue is power dredging. I 

think we need more of that, especially in the upper

Bay here where, especially Queen Anne’s County where 
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we’ve been left out of that. And the main thing that 

I see that’s going to be a major problem is getting

shell to do all these programs. Thank you. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Gilmore. Next 

speaker is Mr. Ed Beggion (phonetic) followed by Jay 

Falstad. 

 MR. BEGGION: I’m going to do my best not to 

repeat a lot of things everybody has said. So for 

that reason, my comments will be very short. I know 

one thing and I don’t know one thing. I know that the 

program we’ve had on oysters in the Bay for the last 

25 years is not working. That’s one thing I know. 

The thing I don’t know, quite frankly, and nobody in 

this room does, is for sure where the program that 

we’re looking to going into is going to work. 

 I mean, if I knew that I wouldn’t tell you, 

I’d be selling that information to Vegas. Okay? But, 

I believe, it’s a good program for the information we 
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have. Is it going to be tweaked? Absolutely. Will 

it work? I hope so. For that reason, I’m for the 

program. Thanks. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Beggion. Our next 

speaker is Mr. Jay Falstad followed by Mr. James 

Haddoway. 

 MR. FALSTAD: My name is Jay Falstad and I’m 

speaking on behalf of Queen Anne’s Conservation 

Association. We are a non-profit 501-C3 and we have 

been in Queen Anne’s County since 1970. And we 

concern ourselves with a wide array of environmental 

and conversation issues. 

 The Executive Committee of Queen Anne’s 

Conservation supports the proposed oyster recovery 

recommendations as outlined by the Oyster Advisory 

Commission. We do not presume to understand all the 

many challenges that face today’s watermen but we do 

recognize, from an environmental standpoint, that the 
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Bay’s oyster population is struggling. 

 And these struggles are caused by many 

factors but the oyster population is, nonetheless, a 

fraction of its historical levels. And anytime a 

species struggles to that degree it sometimes requires 

intervention and sometimes requires policy changes.

 Just as policies were modified to help the 

crab population and the rock fish population, so, too, 

should policies be implemented to help other species 

in order to help maintain a viable fishery for future 

harvest. In order to ensure meaningful production of 

oysters for the future, Queen Anne’s Conservation 

Association supports these proposed regulations. 

Thank you. 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Falstad. Is Mr. 

James Haddoway still with us? Not here. All right. 

The next one, I’m going to be a little challenged so 

hopefully you can help me out with this. Really can’t 

make out the signature but it looks like a Mr. Riggs? 
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Is that remotely close? Zal Riggs? Okay. I’m going 

to, hopefully we’ll come back and pick him up. Grant 

Corbin, Mr. Grant Corbin. Mr. Corbin will be followed 

by Tommy Thompson. 

 MR. CORBIN: I’m Grant Corbin. Been a 

waterman for 52 years. And the main thing sticks in 

my mind is 40 million dollars and you’ve done nothing. 

My Lord, how much money does it take? Ten million 

will do something and 40 million you’ve wasted? Okay. 

If oysters, if the bottom does not work, it’s just 

like farming. 

 These people talking about a program they 

don’t know what they’re talking about. Yes, on paper, 

if I didn’t know nothing about oysters, it sounds like 

a good program. The oyster bottom (indiscernible). 

We were number one in the ‘50s and ‘60s. These people 

don’t realize that is talking about things. 

 We were number one, the best because we had 

shell growing. We planted shells or spat 
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(indiscernible). We took the spat up these rivers for 

(indiscernible). Up the head of the Bay where spat

(indiscernible). That program will work and will 

still work. You can take eight or ten of us watermen 

and give us 40 million dollars, I’ll guarantee you in 

ten years we’d have oysters coming out of the bottom. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. CORBIN: Now, they, also, said power 

dredges. They’re going to study it for five years. 

I’ve been doing it for 20. We have 95 percent of the 

lower (indiscernible) on the whole Bay in Somerset 

County. But there say power dredging, they don’t know 

if it works or not. Where else have they caught 

oysters for 20 years, made a living, but on power 

dredge piling. 

 I mean, these other people just don’t know 

what’s going on. They read the paper and that’s it. 

But they don’t know and they better find out soon. 

That sounds like a grand organization. That woman 
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claims they scientists. There’s a lot of people here 

that’s twice the scientist you’ll ever be. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. CORBIN: Now, I’m not saying that to 

offend her but what I’ve read that they put on their 

web page is one of the biggest lies that ever has been 

put on anything to get these people don’t know on 

their side. Forty-three percent, they say, has paid 

fines. That’s a genuine straight up lie. I bet it’s 

not two percent. 

 Now, that’s got nothing to do with oysters. 

I just stuck that in there. But if anybody wants 

oysters back, look at the programs. The State has got 

the programs where they planted the shells. Matter of 

fact, I brought a copy the other day of how many 

shells to plant. How much spat. 

 People don’t realize dredge boats, that we 

take two loads a day and they will transplant them and 

they will all come up rivers, and different public 
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bars, and some private bars. Oyster program is no 

trouble to bring back. But if the State’s wasted 40 

million, and they brought nothing back, if they were 

running a business, would that CEO be gone or not? 

That’s all I’ve got to say. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Corbin. All right. 

Our next speaker was scheduled to be Mr. Tommy 

Thompson. Is Mr. Thompson still with us? All right. 

And Mr. Thompson would be followed by, and I’ll need 

your help again, Mr. Kellum Om (phonetic). Does 

anybody recognize that? Is that Kellum back there? 

 VOICE: I’ll pass. 

 MR. GARY: Kellum is going to pass. And then 

Tommy, before you start, one more minute. And then

Mr. Jerry Father? Jerry? 

 VOICE: Yes, sir, I’ll pass. 

 MR. GARY: Pass. Okay. You can go up, 

Tommy, but just wait one second. And then Captain Boo 
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Powley. I think I got that one right. Right, Boo?

 VOICE: Yeah, I guess so. 

 MR. GARY: Okay. Tommy, Mr. Thompson, you 

have the floor. 

 MR. THOMPSON: All right. Name’s Tommy 

Thompson. Worked on the water for probably, I don’t 

know, some people might think a lot longer than I 

need, but 40-some years. I don’t see what they’re 

doing when they’re taking natural oyster bottom, bars 

that we worked on in the lower Bay. And I don’t know 

what there is to study there because they’ve taken 

where the oysters already are. They don’t need to 

make any there because they’re already there. 

 And it’s going to hurt a lot of people, I 

think. And I don’t know but, I think, they’re going 

with the wrong approach. I think this seed program

would be best. Thank you. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Boo, 
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before you start, let’s get the next two down to the 

stage if we could, please so we keep things flowing. 

Mr. Powely, you can take the mic now. Next speaker

after Mr. Powely with be Mr. Drew Coslow followed by 

Mr. Bunky Chance. If you both would come down, 

please. Mr. Powely, you have the floor. 

 MR. POWLEY: It’s been a couple groups up 

here to speak in favor of this proposal, this 

regulation. I’m Vice President, Dorchester Seafood

Harvesters and sit in on the Chesapeake Commercial 

Fishermens’ Association. I’ve been a waterman for 38 

years. 

 My ancestors go back to the 1670s. The 

people on the CCA say they’d like to see me go do a

mechanic job on a bus or something. Well, honey, no 

buses up Hooper’s Island. All we got is crab posts

and one gentleman’s store. I ain’t got no where else 

to get a job. This is all I know. This is my living. 

 The CCA, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, also 
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said they got just as much interest as we do. No, 

they don’t. My license this month is $2,175 dollars, 

sir. How much you pay? 

 (Applause) 

 MR. POWLEY: I pay, I lease that bottom. I 

pay the DNR to lease that bottom $710 a year just for 

mine to work the bottom. How much did you pay? Is

any of these regulations going take any money out of 

your pocket? No, but it’s going to take some out of 

ours. So why should a special interest group such as 

you, and that you were formed by the coal companies 

in the north. That’s where you originated from, the 

CCA. You will not vote on a energy project because

you’re funded by energy propane. Well, Captain, I 

think the best thing that you can do is pack your bags 

and go down to -- 

 (Applause) 

 MR. POWLEY: -- (indiscernible). Don’t tell 

us and all what to do. I’m sick of it. 
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 (Applause) 

 MR. POWLEY: And, furthermore, this is 

government take over. The government’s got the banks. 

The government’s got the car industry. Now, they got 

the health care. They’re going to take everything in 

our lives. Now, they’re coming after a bottom that’s 

been public. It won’t be public no more. You all be 

lucky to even take your hook and line and go fishing 

on it, let alone sail across it. 

 That’s a shame. We’re losing freedom so 

fast it makes me sick to my stomach. So don’t tell me 

you got just as much (indiscernible) as I, because you 

ain’t because you don’t pay nothing. It don’t cost

you nothing. So and the woman from the Chesapeake

Bay Foundation -- this (indicating) is off their 

website. Let me read this to you. 

 “In 2008, 43 percent of the Maryland oyster 

harvesters were charged with a poaching violation.” 

Honey, I believe, that’s a defamation of character 
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because that’s a bald face lie. We ain’t a bunch of 

criminals. We want the State to leave us alone and

let us make a living. And we know how to do it but

they don’t ask us. 

 They going to listen to special interests 

groups to pay lobbyists over here in Annapolis and you 

all need to get your asses over there and pay 

attention to the stuff that’s working down in 

Dorchester County and Somerset County. We got oysters 

down there like you wouldn’t believe and it didn’t 

cost the taxpayers a dime. Not one penny. 

 But the waterman is a common poacher, direct 

on. And let me give you some examples. Limits on 

oysters. Forty-five bushel was put up by the 

waterman, not you. Not the Department. Limits on 

oysters was cut back to a bushel. That was put on by 

the watermen, not the Department. The watermen come 

up with the (indiscernible) and the crab pots, not the 

Department. We implemented that. 
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 On our quota on rockfish, we’ve never caught 

over our quota but the recreational fisherman catches 

every (indiscernible) every year. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. POWLEY: And you all going to tell us 

commercial what we’re going to do? You do the spring 

trophy season (indiscernible) with their legs on? We 

don’t even catch them until June. So you all catching 

them with their legs on. You ought to be ashamed of 

yourself. 

 (Laughter) 

 MR. POWLEY: Cownose skates. I told Rob and 

all of them, I said keep your records on how many 

skate you’ve killed this year, cownose skate. I’ve

killed, up-to-date, 3,483. How many have you killed? 

Biggest predator we got in the Chesapeake Bay kills

clams, digs up grass, kills soft crabs. What have you 

done, CCA, Chesapeake Bay Foundation? 

 (Applause) 
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 MR. POWLEY: You all, yeah, we’re thieves? 

We’re outlaws? I don’t think so. Sponge crabs. We 

are the ones that didn’t want to catch. Not them. We 

went to them and told them we didn’t want to catch 

sponge crabs. But we’re thieving. 

 So, ladies and gentlemen, I don’t care a lot 

about saying things but I’m just tired of the 

government intervention. I think people across this 

Country with the tea parties and everywhere else is

fed up with taxes, government takeovers, and that’s

all this is. Thank you. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Powley. Mr. 

Coslow, Mr. Drew Coslow is our next speaker. Before 

we start, just to reiterate, the comment period, it is 

your opportunity to be heard but all those comments, 

if you could focus them as best you can on the 

proposal, that’s really what we’re trying to hear feed 

back on. It is your opportunity to be heard. 
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 But, again, the proposal is what’s being 

brought forward. So the more directed your comments 

can be to the proposal, that would probably be best. 

So Mr. Drew Coslow will be our next speaker. Drew,

before you start, we then have Mr. Bunky Chance and

then we need Ronnie Benton who will be the next 

speaker, come down please. Mr. Benton. Go ahead, Mr. 

Coslow, you have the floor. 

 MR. COSLOW: Good evening. My name is Drew 

Coslow and I’m a Choptank riverkeeper. I work for the 

Choptank River Eastern Bay Conservancy. We’re a local 

non-profit organization with over 440 members. And

I’m here tonight to support the Department’s proposal. 

 I’ve been working on oyster restoration 

since 1999. I’ve worked with the Anne Arundel Hand

Tongers Association to help them increase their 

catches, to put aside harvest reserve bars. And, you 

know, I’ve watched what’s happened in this industry

over a long time. I think that, you know, catching
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oysters out on the Bay, the commercial fishing on the 

Bay is part of our natural heritage. 

 And it’s a shame where it is right now 

compared to where it’s been. All of you all know that 

our resource is dwindling. And, yes, there are other 

causes. The way we live on the land impacts what’s

happening in the water. But our obligation as a 

society, as residents of the (indiscernible) is to try 

to do something to turn things around. 

 We all have an interest in a clean and 

healthy Chesapeake Bay. We all do. And when Captain 

John Smith came into the Bay, the dominant life in the 

Chesapeake was (indiscernible). It lived on the 

bottom. Oysters, and clams, and muscles. Today the 

dominant life force, the dominant life in the Bay is 

palagid. It’s algae. Oysters eat algae. 

 We need to set aside sanctuaries to grow 

oysters to eat algae to clean the water. I support

the proposal. I think it’s a really good start. I
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think that when you have a sanctuary and you leave it 

alone, you have more oysters in one place. You have 

better reproduction. You have better spat set. And 

you’re going to see that not just in the sanctuary but 

outside the sanctuary, as well. 

 So, I think, it’s a good start and I look 

forward to seeing where we are in another five years. 

Thank you. 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Coslow. Our next 

speaker is going to be Mr. Bunky Chance. Is Ronnie 

Benton in? Michael Husty (phonetic)? Okay. Michael, 

are you here? 

 VOICE: Yeah, but -- 

 MR. GARY: You’re going to defer? 

 VOICE: (Indiscernible) 

 MR. GARY: Okay. So you’re deferring? Okay. 

Thank you. And then Gibby Dean. Mr. Gibby Dean. 

Then after Mr. Gibby Dean we’ll have Mr. Dave Smith. 

 MR. CHANCE: Can you all hear this okay? 
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First thing I’d like to say here this evening is I’d 

like to compliment DNR from O’Malley to John Griffin, 

right on down to the folks you see here tonight. 

Because they’ve done an excellent job. They’ve done 

an excellent job putting lipstick on a pig. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. CHANCE: If you folks have taken a 

fraction of the money that you have wasted on 

presentations, on words, and put that money into 

action, into programs that your own DNR knows and have 

documented that works effectively and efficiently, we 

wouldn’t even have to be here tonight. 

 We’d be celebrating recovery of the 

Chesapeake Bay oyster and you know it, sitting right 

there look at me in the eye, each one of you know it. 

Christian put forth an oyster replenishment program

study. Mr. Ken Hastings referred to the, oh, there’s 

nothing that’s been done. 

 There’s been plenty done. Grant Corbin 
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stood right here and referred to the oyster seed 

program. Well documented program. What did you do

with that program? You stuck it on the back burner, 

put the man that wrote it out to pasture, put a new

man in there that doesn’t believe in it, and went on 

about your business to put the watermen out of 

business. You should be ashamed of yourself. You 

know better. Some of you know better. And, you, Tom, 

know better. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. CHANCE: As I look out on this crowd 

tonight I see a lot of faces I recognize, lot of 

watermen. And I see a lot of folks, concerned 

citizens that I don’t recognize. Folks that have 

taken the time to speak here tonight, that have come 

out here tonight. And I applaud you folks for caring 

enough about the resources of this Bay to spend your 

evening out here tonight. To, for lack of a better

phrase, for giving a damn because most folks don’t.
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 But I say to you folks, respectfully, that 

you’re uninformed. You’re informed but you’re not 

completely informed. If you’re going to take the time 

to invest your energy in this direction, give all your 

time to get all the facts. Don’t just take propaganda 

because they’ve got a lot of money to get the word 

out. 

 The facts are there and you got to dig a 

little bit. Mr. Hastings, you claim you’ve been 

digging for all this time, you ought to sharpen your 

shovel up, Captain, because you ain’t digging deep 

enough. As watermen, we all know we face an uphill

battle. We all know that. 

 I’ll tell you what. The watermen that are 

here and the watermen’s families and so on and so 

forth, stand up here just for a minute. Can you take 

just a minute and stand up. 

 (Whereupon, all persons so identified stood, 

as requested.) 
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 MR. CHANCE: Now, the folks that aren’t 

watermen here, take a look at these guys and these 

ladies. Take a good look at them. Don’t just see 

them, look at them. Look at their faces and look in 

their eyes. These men and women are not poachers. 

They’re not law breakers and they’re not commercial

interests. 

 These people are our neighbors. They’re 

your neighbors. These are the men and women who are 

standing in front of you at the grocery store. 

They’re the guys that are buying parts at the hardware 

stores. Buying fuel at the fuel company. An integral 

part of our economy. When you take a link out of the 

chain, the whole chain falls. We’re all part of the 

same chain. 

 Now mind you, in so far as organization and 

lobbying ability goes, they’re a weak link in the 

chain. That’s why we’re being picked on by the powers 

that be. 
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 (Applause) 

 MR. CHANCE: Couple hundred years ago this 

land that we so enjoy, this Chesapeake Bay area, was 

ruled by the British Empire, world-wide empire. And a 

handful of citizens stood up to that empire and they 

called themselves the Sons of Liberty. 

 Everybody laughed at them. Everybody said, 

you know what, you can’t fight City Hall, can’t 

believe you’re running against the tide. And because 

those men stood up, 200 years later, 250-some years

later we’re all sitting here to enjoy the privilege of 

what they lived and died for, the democratic process. 

 But as many men and women that have died for 

that process, that process can be corrupted. And that 

process is being corrupted right here. For instance, 

what is this little get together tonight called? I

believe it’s called a, well, let’s see here, four 

times Tom mentioned that we should go forward 

collectively, have public input to resolve issues, 
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have public participation process and much of this is 

based on public input. 

 What we’re having is a public input here 

tonight. But isn’t it interesting that all the rules 

have already been drawn up and printed? Why are we

here commenting on this aside from the fact that this 

is a dog and pony show that you folks can say, “Oh,

Mr. O’Malley, we had a process.” 

 What good is a process if it’s not honest? 

How do you print laws before you get the public’s 

input and then say the public had input? How’s that 

work? Explain that to me. Suppose you folks were 

negotiating a contract and the day you went in there 

to negotiate that contract, in good faith mind you,

you going to find out the contract’s already been 

printed with your signature already on it. I don’t

imagine you folks would appreciate that but you 

represent that. That’s what you’re here tonight 

representing to the concerned citizens that don’t know 
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any better. 

 I hear the word “environmentalist” a lot. 

Let me tell you what an environmentalist is. An 

environmentalist is a man who makes his living from

the environment and whether or not he pays his 

mortgage, the truck payment, and feeds his family is 

based on that environment. 

 Captain, that man’s an environmentalist. 

Let me tell you, he cares a lot about the environment. 

That’s these watermen out here. So don’t let anybody, 

you folks, concerned citizens, ever tell you that 

these watermen out here are not environmentalists. 

Stakeholders. Tell you what they’re stake is. 

Whether they eat steak tonight or not, that’s their

stake hold. Some of these other gentlemen up 

here have referenced the dredging prop that has been 

made. DNR claims they’d love to put us out. They’d 

love to take this bottom from us and study it. They 

know full well and got records on hand, plenty of it 
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in Annapolis, we’ve all seen them, about the 

productivity of the dredging bottom that started from 

next to nothing that these watermen right out here,

and this is just a fraction of the thousands of the

industry represented here tonight, that they brought 

that bottom back from nothing and now the State wants 

to take it. 

 And the State knows these facts. That’s 

the part that hurts my heart. The State knows these 

facts and, nonetheless, State wants 24 percent of our 

bottom. 

 Take a look at this map. Here’s a map. The 

green area is the sanctuary. The yellow area is 

public bottom. As it stands, most all, most, not 

quite all but most of that bottom is now public. Now, 

let me ask you folks something. Little common sense 

here. Little mathematics. Do the green areas look

like to you, fraction-wise, do the green areas look

like 24 percent of the yellow areas or does it look
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more like half to you? This is DNR map, now. 

 VOICE: Looks like half. 

 MR. CHANCE: Look like half to you folks? 

Look like 40, 45, 50 percent? Apparently, it’s only 

24 by their numbers. DNR’s own map. I’ll conclude

and I apologize for taking so long. But I’m going to 

conclude with a couple sentences from the DNR’s most 

recent sanctuary evaluation. 

 Here are those words. Here are those words, 

Mr. O’Connell. Your Department’s most recent 

sanctuary evaluation. “Despite the numerous 

rehabilitation projects within the sanctuaries, many 

of the sanctuary populations tend to resemble natural 

populations in relatively short periods of time.” 

 “Overall, it appears that the sanctuary 

program to date has fallen far short of its stated 

goal of contributing to the oyster biomass in the 

Chesapeake Bay.” And for that you would take food off 

of these families table? It must be an election year. 
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I have no more to say. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Chance. Our next 

speaker is going to be Mr. Gibby Dean followed by Mr. 

Dave Smith and then Mike Alberts (phonetic). Mike 

here still? Mr. Al? Not here. Then Larry Simms. Mr 

Simms, could you come down, please. 

 MR. DEAN: My name is Gibby Dean. I’m 

President of the Chesapeake Bay Commercial Fishermens’ 

Association. And thank goodness I didn’t have to 

follow Boo Powley up here. That was -- most of the

comments, first of all, I wasn’t even planning on 

speaking here tonight. I attended the meeting in 

Salisbury University and I pretty much put our two 

cents worth in there. 

 The comments I want to make tonight are more 

directed toward the general public. There’s several 

misconceptions that I want to take the opportunity 

clarify. Most all the other issues regarding 
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proposals, stuff you’ve heard about, I know you know 

all about how we feel. 

 For the record, I’m here to, as the 

President of the Association, to oppose the proposal 

as it’s written. Now, first of all, there’s nobody in 

this world that is anymore concerned about not only

bringing the Bay back but the longevity of the oyster 

than we are. Now, some of us may have personal 

reasons for doing that but regardless of what they 

are, we’re all here for the same thing. 

 I’m going to give you a little different 

spin on this proposal and tell you how we went about 

it. We tried to be, and, I guess, the current word is 

“proactive” in dealing with this proposal. When this 

thing hit our desk which didn’t come out until 

December, it was pretty much a done deal. 

 Now, yes, and I don’t recall if Tom 

mentioned tonight, we’ve had countless meetings 

anywhere from a hundred to 150. That’s all true 
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because, I believe, I attended most of them myself. 

And, trust me, there were some adjustments made and

some, you know, slight modifications. 

 But the basic proposal was a done deal when 

it hit our desk. Now, in order to satisfy, we looked 

at this thing and said, “This is the hand that’s been 

dealt us. And what’s the best way we can tackle this 

where we, for the benefit of the commercial watermen, 

the environmental people, and the scientific 

community. So we had countless meetings with people 

from the University of Maryland to try and get the 

scientific side of it. 

 And, I think, I’m pretty sure it was March 

the 8th we came up with a proposal where we would agree 

to support this Plan. We submitted it to the DNR that 

three criteria. Now, before submitting that proposal, 

we met with Maryland Watermens’ Association. We had 

their support on it. We met with representatives from 

Maryland Oystermen Association. We had their support 
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on it. 

 It’s sad to say that, and Stephanie, are you 

still here? 

 VOICE: Yes. 

 MR. DEAN: Not trying to single you out, but 

I personally drove to Annapolis and met with over, 

with Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Stephanie, and also

Bill Goldsboro, showed them our proposal and asked 

them if they would consider supporting it or any part 

of it. I’ve yet to heard, I’ve never even had a 

return phone call. 

 We stuck our hand out. We tried to work 

with all the users groups to come up with a plan that 

would satisfy all these people involved. When we 

submitted the proposal to the DNR, we asked for three 

things. We would support the sanctuary program -- I’m 

not getting into the leasing thing. That should be a 

separate issue to begin with. 

 It should not have ever been combined on 
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this particular issue. But there was three criteria 

that we asked them to meet. Number one, and the most 

important one was that they got agreement from each

and every individual County affected by sanctuary on 

where those lines were to be drawn. 

 We, as an Association, from the get-go 

stayed out of drawing those lines. We left it up to 

the individual shell committees of the counties 

affected to come up with those lines and whatever they 

came up with we would support. 

 Now, when we left the negotiation table, to 

my knowledge and my understanding, there was only two 

counties that were still negotiating and unsatisfied 

with the (indiscernible). None of us were satisfied 

with them but we had a plan that we thought we could 

work with. 

 And those two counties was Talbot and St. 

Mary’s. And, I think, they’re still in negotiations 

on those. At least Talbot is anyhow. When the final 
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draft came out, we noticed that Manokin River, 

Nanticoke River were included. Well, that one came as 

a complete surprise to us and even members from the

Shell Committee. 

 So, now, you can add not only, I don’t know 

the status of St. Mary’s but you can add Talbot, 

Dorchester, Wicomico, and Somerset now that it’s 

being, there’s four counties right there where the 

lines have not been satisfied. 

 The second criteria was to set up regional 

management councils. Now, Tom spoke about those and 

he mentioned them in. We could foresee, and this was 

a brain storming operation. It was never anything set 

in stone but possibly four to six regional management 

councils spread throughout the Bay. Now, in those 

management councils, you would have people from the

scientific community, you would have people from DNR, 

you would have representatives from the commercial 

fishing industry. 
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 Now, the combination of those three, we 

wanted them to be a regulatory body. For example, 

they would go in and take spat count. Before the 

season’s over they would do oysters per meter. They 

would possibly set harvest limits on certain bars. We 

thought about what type of gear we could use. 

 We know how beneficial we think power 

dredging was and is. There was times even this last 

year when the commercial oystermen themselves were 

calling me asking, “Can we get a section of Mohanga

(phonetic) River closed because we feel it’s being 

over-harvested?” 

 If we had those regional management councils 

in place, we could do things like that. We could do 

bottom rotation. You know, it would be up to us, you 

know, to come up with these, the different techniques 

and strategies other that what we’re using today. It 

would take, and when I called about having the river 

closed, it was a six-week process. 
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 You know, that was useless to us. Anyhow, 

there has been provisions in this proposal to have 

these regional management councils but they’ve been

watered down now to advisory councils. And that’s 

really not what we were looking for. 

 And the third and final thing was, if the 

sanctuaries themselves are so beneficial, now, we 

never were in favor of if they were going to be 

handled the way they have in the past. But we were

told they were going to spend money whether to do bar 

cleaning, seeding, all these things of this nature and 

we could see residual benefits from that. 

 But if you’re getting benefits from the 

sanctuaries of themselves, why not spend an equal 

amount of money on the public shellfish bottom where 

the sanctuary would get residual benefits from that? 

We started out asking for dollar-for-dollar match. 

There was a lot of contingence that would prohibit. 

But they did give us in so many words asked if we’re 
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going, you know, support the public shellfish bottoms 

through monetary means. 

 Because of these reasons, because they have 

not been met, you know, we have to, we’ve supported

this plan in principal, we tried to work with them on 

this. I’m not saying whose fault it is or isn’t, why 

it didn’t get done but because of the final draft of 

the plan we cannot support it as written. Thank you. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you. We have three more 

speakers that have signed up and before we call them 

up to the stage I just want to apologize to the 

audience. Me, personally, to you. My job tonight was 

to facilitate this meeting and allow for you to be 

heard in a civil, constructive, cordial dialogue back 

to us addressing the subject, make sure you were 

heard. 

 In an effort to try to do that, 

unfortunately, I didn’t put on the best performance
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and a few folks personalized their comments. And 

that’s not in the spirit of what we decided tonight. 

So I want to apologize from me to you, the audience, 

and also I want to personally apologize to Stephanie 

Westie and to Ken Hastings, and our director, Tom 

O’Connell. 

 There’s three people that I heard singled 

out tonight and I just want to let everybody know I

don’t think there’s anybody in this room that doesn’t 

care about the oyster resource in the Chesapeake Bay. 

I, also, don’t believe there’s anybody in this room

that doesn’t thing there’s a problem out there and 

that we should do something about it. 

 We may not agree on what it is but we need 

to address it. And I know whether you’re a proponent 

or an opponent to these regulations that are being 

brought forward. We wanted to hear from you. And we 

have three speakers left and I will ask you can we 

finish this meeting out the way it was intended to be, 
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civil and constructive, and respectful? 

 So I apologize to all of you. Our next 

speaker is going to be Mr. Dave Smith to be followed 

by Mr. Larry Simms and then Mr. Dave Sikorski, if you 

could take you place. Thank you. 

 MR. SMITH: My name is Dave Smith. I am the 

Executive Director of the Maryland Saltwater Sport 

Fishermens’ Association and we support this plan. Let 

me take you through, kind of, the learning process and 

the discussions that we had as a board. 

 We have 14 chapters throughout the State 

stretching from Frederick County all the way to the

Atlantic coast from southern Maryland all the way up 

to Pennsylvania. So we have a diverse group of 

individuals that come to the table each month and 

discuss issues. 

 It took us a while to come out and support 

this plan because we had to meet with our members, we 

had to meet with our chapter presidents, and we had to 
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meet with the Department. And after a lot of 

discussions, we support the plan. There are two 

things that came up. 

 One, we all understood there was a problem. 

Two, we all understood we needed to do something about 

it. And this was the plan that was presented. We all 

agreed that from hearing this tonight, it’s not 

perfect. But there’s certain things in place within 

the plan for adaptability and flexibility. We know

there’s a problem that needs to be addressed. This is 

a start. This is a tough decision. Somebody’s got to 

make it and the Department did. 

 Recreational anglers in this state provide 

many, many benefits. Tens of thousands of jobs, they 

provide a tremendous amount of money to this state. 

And we need to protect the fisheries that they go out 

and target. And having more oysters in the Bay, 

having more habitat is just going to increase fishery 

populations and we’re going to have a beneficiary for 
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recreational (indiscernible). 

 It’s going to be a destination on the East 

Coast for recreational anglers and everybody is going 

to get out there and enjoy. So that was our thought 

process. We support this plan and thank you. 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Dave. Next speaker is 

Larry Simms. 

 MR. SIMMS: Larry Simms, President of 

(indiscernible) Association. I’d just like to make

some facts known here. Most everything been’s said

here tonight. But from the very beginning we haven’t 

been against sanctuary planning. Everybody’s profit 

is where they’re going to make their sanctuaries. 

 And that’s been our debate with DNR all 

along and we’re still negotiating with them about it. 

Couple things. You know, when they take the very best 

bottom that we got to make a living on to make a 

sanctuary for an experiment that they’re not whether 

it’s going to work or not doesn’t seem reasonable to 
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any of us. 

 We supported the sanctuary plan. We support 

a lot of areas but we don’t support the very best 

areas that we harvest to get in those sanctuaries. 

That’s where the conflict is. The other thing, if DNR 

is willing to sacrifice the bottom for experimental

program and they don’t have any scientific proof if

the sanctuary will do anything at all, it’s all just a 

guessing game, all we ask for is equal time. 

 We would like to have experimented with what 

we know works and that’s give us before dredge bottom 

to do experiment with that. And they’ve been working 

with us with three different bottoms but we’re not 

satisfied because they’re not big enough to really 

prove anything. 

 What we’d like to see is a big area in 

Eastern Bay for experimental for power dredging. Yet 

we have a spat set in there. You got lots of shells 

in there but they’re coming up with water blisters so 
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the spat can’t sit on them. So we’re asking to do 

experiment in Eastern Bay, or big (indiscernible), not 

just a little postage stamp but a big area. 

 So they’re willing to take 25 percent for 

experiment, we’d like to have 25 percent to 

experiment. (Indiscernible), their’s is just a guess 

for (indiscernible). That’s where we stand. We still 

talking. We still trying to negotiate something. 

It’s been a done deal from the very get-go but we’ve 

had assurance from the Secretary that he’s still 

willing to work with us. So that’s what we have to go 

on. 

 So just want everybody to know we wouldn’t 

be here arguing about oysters and not having any if

all environmental groups did their job over the last 

25, 30 years and kept the Bay from being polluted and 

silted over. So here we are, the final step is the

watermens’ fault. Well, it’s everybody in this room’s 

fault. If you turn over a piece of ground, that’s 
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silt coming out there. If you put fertilizer on your 

lawn, that goes out there. 

 All of that contributes to oysters not 

reproducing and, I think, it has effect on the disease 

that we have. So it’s now all these environmental 

groups stand up here and support this plan because 

they failed. And that’s why we’re here. Thank you. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Simms. And our 

last signed-up speaker is Mr. Dave Sikorski. 

 MR. SIKORSKI: As he said, my name is David 

Sikorski. I’m CCA Maryland’s representative from the 

Sport Fish Advisory Commission. And it’s 

(indiscernible). This is second one of these meetings 

I’ve been to. I was at the initial one in Annapolis. 

Not much was said and that’s why I made it a point to 

come here. 

 I live in Howard County. I spent a great 

deal of time on the Eastern Shore, a great deal of 
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time on the Western Shore. Spend a great deal of time 

enjoying the outdoors and the recreation it provides. 

And I have great passion for the outdoors and the 

health of the Bay, the health of our ecosystems. 

 I’ve been on the Sport Fish Advisory 

Commission for about a year. And I’ve been absolutely 

amazed at finding that same passion I have that I know 

all of you in this room have for our ecosystem and for 

our Bay, within the people at DNR that work hard every 

day to do what’s in the best interest for all of us in 

this room, all of us, and all of the approximately 

five million Marylanders who the Bay belongs to. 

 It’s a privilege for all of use to be able 

to enjoy it the way we do. It’s an absolute privilege 

for many in this room to be able to make a living on. 

I mean, that is the dream of many people in the State. 

I think the character of the Department that I have

found and worked with was just exemplified by Mr. 

Gary’s comments. His apology. 
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 That’s the passion and the humbleness that 

this Department has. And they truly understand that 

they’re not here to take jobs. I’ve about “you’re 

putting me out of work, you’re putting me out of 

work.” My profession is a builder and a realtor. And 

I’m in an industry that has changed greatly over the 

last 30 years, my lifetime, 28 years. I’m 28 years

old. 

 And Mr. Simms touched on something very 

proper. He said, you know, we can point fingers and 

point fingers. Until we’re all willing to point our 

finger on (indiscernible), this is all just a waste of 

time. The Department has worked extremely hard, spent 

tons of time and a lot of resources to put together

this plan. Is it perfect? Anybody in this room 

perfect? I don’t think so. 

 It’s as good as we’re going to get. It’s 

worth making an effort. I mean, it’s a step in the

right direction. And the aquaculture program, over 90 
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percent of oysters consumed by the public are grown in 

aquacultures. The gentleman that asked, 80, 90 cents 

for an oyster. I paid a dollar an oyster that was 

grown by aquaculture in Cape Cod. Is this the answer? 

No. 

 But I don’t think 24 to 25 percent sanctuary 

bottom to find out if there’s a chance that oysters

can survive and, you know, become disease resistant is 

asking too much. A hundred and fifty meetings. How 

many posters can reprint? How many maps? I mean, the 

respect that’s been shown to this Department, or by

this Department to the public has been, it’s just 

amazed me and made me happy to be represented by those 

people. 

 You know Coastal Conservation Association, 

CCA, it’s a dirty word with a lot of you guys out 

there. And, no, they’re not on totally my 

(indiscernible). There’s a lot of mis-truths that 

have, you know, happened in this room and it happens 
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amongst all of us in this fisheries (indiscernible) in 

making regulation. 

 And if we all work together we can get 

something done and that’s what this plan allows us to 

do. Dredge bottom, I’ve heard dredge bottom -- silt 

off bars and there’s some truth to that. But, now,

and that’s great. The Department has given us three 

areas to work on it and finding a study what is truly 

happening. That’s a step in the right direction. 

 So I thank the Department for their hard 

work and just having these meetings to allow people

like me to stand up and, I’m a 28-year-old Marylander. 

I mean, am I the youngest angler man? I’m amazed that 

I can stand here and give my input to representatives. 

I see Secretary Griffin in the back. 

 I mean, it’s an honor to be up here and, I 

think, you all should be honored that there are people 

like this representing us and working hard to try and 

make the Chesapeake Bay a better place. Status quo is 
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not the option. It’s not an option at all. It can’t 

be. 

 For a hundred years we’ve been going down a 

slippery slope. Less than one percent of historical 

levels, we should be ashamed of ourselves, utterly 

ashamed. We need to do something. A lot of you have 

a lot of great ideas and I know the Department will

listen. They have. They’ll continue to. 

 I’ve been in plenty of meetings and I’ve 

seen change and I’ve seen, you know, an effort put out 

that I thank them for. Is everything perfect? 

Absolutely not but it’s a step in the right direction. 

And on behalf of CCA Maryland, I fully support this

plan and thank the Department for their hard work. 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Mr. Sikorski. That was 

our last signed-in speaker. Time now is 8:17. We 

have the room until nine o’clock. Now, as we stated 

at the beginning of the meeting, the purpose of this 

meeting is make sure that you were heard and make sure 
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those comments that you had, preferably directed at

the proposed regulations, were heard and brought to

our attention so that we can consider them before a

final decision is made. 

 So with about 40 minutes to go, we want to 

make sure, we don’t want to leave here tonight given 

we have until nine o’clock without everyone having the 

opportunity to be heard. So I would ask at this time 

if someone has not had the opportunity to come up and 

speak that they be given that opportunity. And can I 

have a show of hands of anybody that might like to 

come up? Secretary Griffin. 

 SECRETARY GRIFFIN: Good evening everyone. I 

first want to, on behalf of all my colleagues with the 

Department, thank every one of you for coming out here 

this evening on a hot, rainy, summer evening. Hot and 

humid, I should say. 

 We submitted this plan, proposed it 

initially December of last year. And my comments 
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tonight are not going to address a lot of the 

continuing debate about what’s true and not true, what 

facts are facts and what facts are fiction. I wanted 

to offer two comments, two or three general ones. 

 First and foremost, we have tried for these 

long seven or eight months, particularly with the 

industry and all of you who have come to depend on the 

value of the Chesapeake Bay for your livelihoods and 

those of your families, believe it or not, we do very 

much support that. And sometimes we try to make 

decisions which we think long term will rebuild the

populations of fisheries, in this case oysters, to 

allow you to maintain a live style which most 

Marylanders value and appreciate, including all of us 

who work with the Department of Natural Resources. 

 I know at this time it’s hard for all of you 

to appreciate, understand that, or even believe it 

but, trust me, I know most of the good people who work 

here in the Department, I know what they feel and 
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believe, and try to do day-in and day-out. And it’s 

not to put all of you out of work but it’s to try to 

maintain a resource to a level where you can thrive in 

your own businesses and in the traditions that you’ve 

developed in your own families over generations and

centuries. 

 But we have tried, I think, very hard to try 

to reach accommodations with the industry county-bycounty, as Gibby Dean alluded to, sanctuary lines 

versus public fishery lines. I thought when the 

General Assembly session ended, as he alluded to, we 

were pretty close. I say that recognizing that none 

of the watermen in any of the counties were happy with 

the notion of sanctuaries that encroach on current 

public fishing areas. But, you know, compromise is in 

the nature of the government in my view and we have

tried to do that. Obviously, we have not succeeded. 

 So the major thing I wanted to offer all of 

you tonight is the proposition that if you all can re-
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gather your forces and come back to us with something 

that represents some final things you’d like to see

changed in this, and if you all can stand behind it, 

because I realize how difficult it is. 

 In each one of your associations, you have 

oystermen who oyster in different ways, they oyster in 

different areas. Every fisherman has his or her 

favorite spot, right? And so to try to get consensus 

even in one county, let alone among all the 11 

counties where oystering takes place, is a difficult 

proposition. 

 And we’ve experienced that on our end as 

we’ve tried to reach compromises and later found out 

that other folks in a given county who are in their

industry are not happy with it. The difference 

between patent tonging, and hand tonging, and power

dredging. We have tired and we’re not, certainly, 

perfect and you all, more than anybody else, are very 

good at pointing out all of flaws. 
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 But we have tried hard, I think, to try to 

reach compromises over a lot of months. So my offer 

to you, my proposition to all of you is if you can all 

come together and come back to us and say to us, 

“These are the final changes that we’d like to make,” 

like to see you agree to, that respect some of the 

things we would say and we want to achieve, and make 

life a little easier on you, we’re willing, certainly, 

to seriously consider that and work with you. 

 But, I think, at this point in the process 

to continue this effort county-by-county, as we tried 

to do, I don’t know. It’s just, you know, my sense is 

that’s run its course. That all of you in this 

industry have to come together to iron out, if you 

can, some of your own individual and collective 

disagreements over this and tell us, finally, what you 

want to see in terms of some compromises. 

 You have my pledge. I know the Governor 

feels the same way. We would be more than anxious to 
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review them with you and see if we can’t, in good 

faith, resolve these. We are not interested in 

putting you out of work. You know, that’s a very hard 

thing for anybody in a job like ours to want to do.

 And, believe it or not, we try to avoid 

impacts where we can. I don’t think the impacts from 

the facts that we know, and I know we may have a 

disagreement about this, are of a magnitude that all 

of you believe they are. But I, also, recognize the 

back drop here with a world-wide recessions, with the 

number of folks in this room who work on the water for 

a living hurting because resources of a declining 

economy is in bad shape around the world. 

 All your second jobs or your spouses second 

jobs may be impacted one way or the other. We 

understand the concern and the fear you have about the 

future and what this is going to mean for you. And

we’re trying our best to move in a different direction 

because we think what’s been tried in good faith has 
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not got us to where we need to be. So that’s my offer 

to all of you. 

 We’re going to move forward but we’re 

certainly willing and able and interested in hearing a 

consensus, final set of changes you’d like to see. 

And we will seriously consider them. And, again, I

want to thank not only everybody in the industry who 

is here tonight, but also all the other members of the 

public, those who represent organizations who have 

come here tonight to express their views. 

 This is a public resource. Yes, we all rely 

on it differently but we all contribute to it and we 

all have stake in this game. Thank you for listening 

and thank you for coming out this evening. And I, 

finally, want to say, you know, there’s a lot of folks 

in DNR, far fewer than there used to be. 

 I’ve been here on and off for 30 years in 

State government. And I can tell you that the Fishery 

staff is one of the groups in this Department, if you 
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total up the number of hours they’ve worked it would 

shock you. It would shock you with the amount of time 

that is spent not only on their own internally in the 

Department, but their interacting with all of you. 

 It is an amazing amount of work and I simply 

want to compliment Tom, Mike, Marty, everyone here 

from Fisheries for the hard work they do day in and

day out. And they can disagree with you guys and you 

can disagree with them and me. I understand that. 

That’s part of the democratic process. As Marty 

says, we try to do it with a sense of respect for one 

another. And we try to get compromises ironed out 

that meet reasonably what we want to do and what you 

want to do. And, so, I’ll shut up. I wasn’t 

really planning to speak but I just wanted to leave

you with that message. This is not all for show. We 

are trying to get comments back that we think merit

further discussion in terms of change. But, I think, 

at this point, industry, give us your best shot if 
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you’re willing and we will seriously weigh it in terms 

of any final decisions we have to make. Thank you 

very much. 

 (Applause) 

 MR. GARY: Thank you, Secretary Griffin. 

Just two final comments. As Tom mentioned earlier in 

the presentation, the comment period official runs 

through August the 16th so there is an opportunity to 

submit your comments in writing to us, go to our 

website, or talk to any of our staff, provide you with 

that information, or send it in via email. And, 

finally, last not least, these comments for the record 

have been recorded and will be posted to our website 

within ten days. So, again, thank you for attending 

tonight. This concludes the fourth hearing for 

Proposed Oyster Regulations Aquaculture Development

Plan. Thank you. 

 (Whereupon, at 8:30 p.m., the aboveentitled public hearing was concluded.) 
 HUNT REPORTING COMPANY 

 Court Reporting and Litigation Support 

 Serving Maryland, Washington, and Virginia 

 410-766-HUNT (4868) 

 1-800-950-DEPO (3376) 

82

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 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY 

 I, Linda Joyce Kraller, the officer before 

whom the foregoing testimony was taken, do hereby 

certify that the testimony of said parties was taken 

by me by stenomask means and thereafter reduced to 

typewriting by me or under my direction; that said 

testimony is a true record of the testimony given by 

said parties; that I am neither counsel for, related 

to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action 

in which this testimony is taken; and, further, that I 

am not a relative or employee of any attorney or 

counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 

financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 

the action. 

 This certification is expressly withdrawn 

and denied upon the disassembly or photocopying of the 
foregoing transcript of the proceedings or any part

thereof, including exhibits, unless said disassembly 

or photocopying is done by the undersigned court 

reporter and/or under the auspices of Hunt Reporting 

Company, and the signature and original seal is 

attached thereto. 

 ______________________ 

 LINDA JOYCE KRALLER 

 Notary Public in and for 

 the State of Maryland 

My Commission Expires: 

January 3, 2014 

Ordering information for Maryland Oyster Restoration 

and Aquaculture Development Public Hearing transcript, 

taken on Wednesday, 7/7/10, due in ten-working days, 

by 7/21/10: 

MR. MARTIN GARY 

Maryland Department of Natural Resources 

Tawes Office Building 

Taylor Avenue 

Annapolis, Maryland 

410-279-0459 

ORIGINAL, 1 ELECTRONIC COPY, AND 1 DVD TO PUT ON THEIR 

WEBSITE (not sure what you decided on the last DVD?). 

Linda Kraller