Exhibit 7

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Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull,

Jr.

Date: May 28, 2024

Case: Headwater Research LLC -v- Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., et al.

Planet Depos

Phone: 888.433.3767

Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com

www.planetdepos.com

WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

MARSHALL DIVISION

HEADWATER RESEARCH LLC, )

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. ) CASE NO.

) 2:23-cv-00103 JRG RSP

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., )

LTD., SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS )

AMERICA, INC., SAMSUNG )

DISPLAY CO., LTD., )

)

Defendant. )

EXPERT ZOOM ORAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION

DR. DON R. TURNBULL, JR.

May 28, 2024

EXPERT ZOOM ORAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DR.

DON R. TURNBULL, JR., produced as a witness at the

instance of the Plaintiff and duly sworn, was taken

in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 28th

day of May, 2024, from 11:03 a.m. to 3:42 p.m.,

before Michelle Hartman, Certified Shorthand Reporter

in and for the State of Texas and Registered

Professional Reporter, reported by computerized

stenotype machine at the offices of via Zoom

videoconference, pursuant to the Federal Rules of

Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the

record or attached hereto.

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APPEARANCES

FOR THE PLAINTIFF:

Mr. Philip Wang

RUSS AUGUST & KABAT

12424 Wilshire Blvd. 12th Floor

Los Angeles, California 90025

Telephone: 310-826-7474

E-mail: pwang@raklaw.com

FOR THE DEFENDANTS:

Mr. Jonathan Bright

and Ms. Sunwoo Lee

FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.

1180 Peachtree Street NE, 21st Floor

Atlanta, Georgia 30309

Telephone: 404-724-2756

E-mail: jbright@fr.com

and

Mr. Kevin Jang

QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP

1200 Abernathy Road NE Building 600

Suite 1500

Atlanta, GA 30328

Telephone: 415-875-6486

E-mail: kevinjang@quinnemanuel.com

ALSO PRESENT:

Mr. Lucas Shaker, videographer

Mr. Parker Simpson, remote tech

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INDEX

PAGE

DR. DON R. TURNBULL, JR.

Examination by Mr. Wang ...........................6

Signature Page .................................138

Signature Page .................................139

Court Reporter's Certificate ....................140

EXHIBITS

EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE

Exhibit 1 Declaration of Don 10

Turnbull, Ph.D

Exhibit 2 Curriculum vitae of Don 10

Turnbull, Ph.D.

Exhibit 3 Samsung's PR4-2 Preliminary 21

Claim Constructions and

Extrinsic Evidence," a 10-page

document dated March 28th, 2024

Exhibit 4 Samsung's PR4-2 Preliminary 29

Claim Constructions and

Extrinsic Evidence," 10-page

document dated April 19th, 2024

Exhibit 5 U.S. Patent 8,406,733, Raleigh 48

Exhibit 6 U.S. Patent Number 9,192,117 B2 49

Raleigh

Exhibit 7 U.S. Patent Number 9,615,192 B2 50

Raleigh

Exhibit 8 A three-page document entitled 55

"Dictionary of Computer and

Internet Terms," Bates number

SAM-HW-2_00215498 through 500

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EXHIBITS (cont.)

EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE

Exhibit 9 U.S. Patent No. 2006/0218395 A1 64

Maes

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins media

number one in the videotaped deposition of Dr. Don

Turnbull in the matter of Headwater Research LLC

versus Samsung Electronics Co. LTD, et al. in the

United States District Court for the Eastern District

of Texas, Marshall Division, Case Number

2:23-cv-00103 JRG RSP.

Today's date is May 28th, 2024, and the

time on the video monitor is 11:03 a.m. Central time.

The remote videographer today is Lucas Shaker

representing Planet Depos. All parties of this

deposition are attending remotely.

Could counsel please voice identify

themselves and state whom they represent.

MR. WANG: This is Philip Wang of the law

firm Russ August & Kabat for Plaintiff Headwater

Research, LLC.

MR. BRIGHT: This is Jonathan Bright from

Fish & Richardson representing the Samsung Defendants

and the witness; and with me is Sunwoo Lee, also from

Fish & Richardson.

MR. JANG: This is Kevin Jang from the

law firm of Quinn Emanuel, also representing Samsung

and the witness.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you, Counsel.

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The court reporter today is Michelle

Hartman representing Planet Depos. The witness will

now be sworn.

THE COURT REPORTER: Please raise your

right hand.

THE WITNESS: (Complies).

DR. DON R. TURNBULL, JR.,

having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

EXAMINATION

THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you. You may

lower your hand.

You may proceed, Counsel.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Good morning,

Dr. Turnbull. My name is Philip Wang. I represent

the Plaintiff Headwater in this case.

Do you understand that you are under oath

today?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you testified under oath before?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. More than three dozen.

Q. More than 36 times --

A. Yes.

Q. -- have you --

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Do you understand that even though we're

conducting the deposition via Zoom today that the

testimony you give under oath is subject to the same

penalty of perjury as if you were testifying in a

Court of Law?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any documents with you right

now?

A. No.

Q. And on -- on your screen, do you have

anything open other than the Zoom, any chat or

messaging applications?

A. No. The only app I have open is the Zoom

app and then a completely blank desktop behind it.

Q. Is there anything that would prevent you

from thinking clearly and testifying truthfully

today?

A. No.

Q. Dr. Turnbull, you submitted a claim

construction declaration in this case, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Who wrote your claim construction

declaration?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

THE WITNESS: I suspect that I typed a

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great deal of it, but some of the counsel that's here

with us today put in some pieces, but it was all

under my direction. It represents all of my thoughts

and opinions and I stand behind everything in the

declaration.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Did the attorneys provide

you a first draft of your declaration?

A. I don't recall who had the template

first. I think it was possibly a blank template that

was sent to me that I began filling in.

Q. When were you retained to work on this

case?

A. I don't recall.

Q. You don't have any idea?

A. No, I really don't remember.

Q. When did you start working on your

declaration?

A. Sometime before it was due, maybe up to

two months before then, probably more work as we got

closer to the deadline.

Q. Do you recall how many hours you spent

preparing your declaration?

A. No. And I should have guessed that you

would ask that, but I didn't think about that.

Q. Do you have any idea?

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A. Not really. Less than a hundred, I'm

sure of that.

Q. More than 10 hours?

A. Oh, for sure.

Q. What did you do to prepare for this

deposition?

A. I reviewed the patent specification, the

claims, the file history for the patents, my

declaration; and I think the references, I cite some

computer dictionaries, I looked at those; and then

last Friday, I spent some time talking with Counsel

in preparation for today.

Q. Okay. When you say the "references you

cite," do you mean the computer dictionaries?

A. Exactly right.

Q. Any other references?

A. Nothing else comes to mind.

Q. And were they all dictionaries for the

term "agent"?

A. I think that's right, yes.

Q. And you don't recall if there were any

other terms?

A. No. If we begin discussing them and it

comes to mind, I will let you know, but I remember

that specifically.

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Q. And who did you speak with on Friday in

preparation for your deposition?

A. Mr. Bright, Mr. Jang, and maybe some

other counsel as well that's present today.

Q. And how long was that meeting?

A. Part of an afternoon, part of a Friday

afternoon.

Q. An hour, two hours?

A. I would think a little more than two

hours.

Q. Was that meeting via Zoom?

A. Some video technology, I don't remember

if it was zoom or WebEx.

Q. Thank you, Dr. Turnbull. I will go ahead

and introduce your -- your declaration as an exhibit,

and so I will go ahead and send that as Exhibit 1.

(Exhibit 1 marked)

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And then I will also send

your C.V. that was provided along with your

declaration, so I will send those first two exhibits

via the chat.

(Exhibit 2 marked)

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Would you please download

and then open the first exhibit.

A. I have got it and I pulled it up, so I

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think I'm with you, we're in sync.

Q. Okay. So I'm going to introduce as

Exhibits 1 and 2, in order, of Dr. Turnbull's

deposition. Exhibit 1 is the declaration of Don

Turnbull, Ph.D. dated April 29th, 2024, and the

document is 20 pages.

Do you have this exhibit open right now,

Dr. Turnbull?

A. Yeah, I downloaded it and I've got it

open right now.

Q. Does this appear to be a true and correct

copy of the claim construction declaration you

submitted in this case?

A. It sure looks like it.

Q. And then could you open Exhibit 2?

A. Okay, I didn't see that posted to the

chat yet.

Q. I sent it the same time as Exhibit 1.

A. Oh, okay.

Q. So it should be right next to it or right

below it.

A. I see it now. I have downloaded it, and

I've got it open here. So I'm in sync with you with

that as well.

Q. All right. So I'm introducing as

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Exhibit 2 a document entitled Don Turnbull, Ph.D.,

which is your C.V. that was submitted along with the

declaration. It is a 10-page document.

Dr. Turnbull, does that appear to be a

true and correct copy of your C.V. that was submitted

along with your declaration?

A. Yes, it looks like it.

Q. Okay. You can close Exhibit 2 for now.

Dr. Turnbull, does your declaration

Exhibit 1 contain a complete statement of your claim

construction opinions in this case?

A. Currently, yes.

Q. Have you formed additional opinions since

you submitted a declaration?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

THE WITNESS: Nothing comes to mind.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Why do you say "currently,"

then?

A. I guess I may have thoughts at some other

point on these terms or other terms if I'm asked to

give an opinion on them.

Q. Okay. Sitting here, do you have any

corrections to your claim construction declaration?

A. No, not really. I think one of the

figures maybe should be centered together, but that

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is just a minor formatting thing.

Q. Okay. But apart from that issue about

centering a figure, do you have any corrections or

changes to your declaration?

A. Nothing I can think of. If we see

something as we go along, I will let you know.

Q. Sitting here, do you have any additional

opinions to add to your report?

A. Not sitting here today, no.

Q. So you don't intend to offer any opinions

outside your report?

A. Unless I'm asked to.

Q. Do you think it's appropriate to offer

additional opinions in a deposition that aren't in

your report?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

THE WITNESS: I'm not an attorney, if

someone asks me a question, I will do my best to

answer it or do research required to answer a

question.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Can you please turn to

paragraph 19 of your declaration.

A. Okay. Okay. And so that's paragraph 19

on page eight of my report?

Q. Yes. And would you prefer if I refer to

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it by page number? I found that paragraph number is

more -- more specific.

A. I think paragraph number is fine. I

thought it would be good just at the beginning to get

one level set for where we're at.

Q. So I will start with on page eight of

your declaration, paragraph 19. And I may -- in

general, I will refer to paragraph numbers of your

declaration, but if you have trouble finding it and

need the page number, just let me know.

So in paragraph 19, you say that in

preparation for this declaration, you reviewed the

'733, '117 and '192 patents and their prosecution

histories and the parties' proposed constructions,

correct?

A. That's right. And per your question

earlier, I did look at the proposed constructions

from the complaint. I had forgotten about that.

Q. What do you mean the proposed

constructions from the complaint?

A. I -- at least my memory is the

constructions were in some court documents, so I

think of it as the complaint.

Q. So there is some court document, and in

your mind, you think of it as the complaint, correct?

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A. Yeah, just the court document.

Q. Anything else other than what's described

in paragraph 19?

A. Other than the computer dictionaries that

we discussed earlier.

Q. Okay. So the computer dictionaries is

not mentioned in this paragraph, but you would

include it there?

A. It is something that I reviewed.

Q. Okay. And as we talked about before,

those were the few dictionary definitions for the

word "agent" correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Anything else that -- other than what we

have discussed?

A. Nothing else comes to mind right now.

Q. Any other extrinsic evidence?

A. Nothing else comes to mind right now.

Q. How much time did you spend reviewing the

prosecution histories of the asserted patents?

A. I really don't remember. I remember

certainly scrolling through pieces of it, they're

quite large, and then probably doing some searches to

either find sections or key words and things like

that and then reading around there and then probably

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reviewing or scrolling through and looking at other

pieces of them as well.

Q. You don't offer any opinions about the

prosecution histories, do you?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

THE WITNESS: I don't think I have

anything in this declaration.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Are you aware one way or

the other whether there are pending or filed IPR

proceedings on the asserted patents?

A. No, I'm not.

Q. You're not aware if they exist one way or

the other?

A. No.

Q. So you did not consider any IPRs on the

asserted patents?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

THE WITNESS: No.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And you did not consider

any materials from IPR proceedings on the asserted

patents?

A. I guess I couldn't have. If I didn't

know there was an IPR, I wouldn't know any materials

would be related to that.

Q. Did you consider any prior art references

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in forming your opinions on the asserted patents?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall doing that.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Did you review any prior

art references in offering your opinions in your

declaration?

A. I don't recall doing that either.

Q. Can we jump to paragraph 30 of your

report where you state "the level of ordinary skill

in the art."

A. I'm with you.

Q. Okay. What would you say is the field of

the asserted patents?

A. I would say broadly information systems,

but I think computer science fits well that we have

here. In terms of what a degree could be composed

of, we have computer science, electrical engineering

or related field, and that's in there because, as you

know, you know, different schools have different

focus depending on the degree name.

You know, for example, UT Austin even has

something in between computer science and electrical

engineering I think called computer and electrical

engineering or CEC. So just the variance of those

type of degrees I think all fit in here. But again,

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also information systems, it could be that a related

field is some kind of maybe even industrial systems

engineering, something like that as well.

Q. Just an example, a related field would be

industrial systems engineering --

A. Yes, that would --

Q. -- probably?

A. -- that could be one example.

Q. In paragraph 30 you say "three to five

years of experience in services and application

implementation and communication networks."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. Just generally a broad statement to give

us kind of a framework. "Services" I think broadly

would be information services, or, you know, we have

a term now called "softwares of service" that I guess

is an industry term for applications and how they

might work with a server or be run exclusively on a

server; and then "application implementation" would

mean building the application or doing the

programming required to build part of the

application.

You know, applications now can be so

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large that, you know, it is not one person that could

do it, you may be part of a team, so you may have

some skills related to part of that implementation.

Q. And is that a fair description of the

field of the asserted patents?

A. Yeah, I would say so.

Q. Do you know what the priority date of the

asserted patents is?

A. 2009 or 2010.

Q. That's your understanding of the time

frame?

A. That is just my -- my memory of it, yes.

Q. And I don't believe you have a date in

the -- in paragraph 30 or that nearby sections.

Would that be the date that you're applying?

A. Yes.

Q. And correct me if you see the date

somewhere, but I don't see it here in paragraphs 20

to 30.

A. No, I don't have a date in there. That

is just my rough recall of what the priority date for

I think what the earliest patent was.

Q. But the understanding that you're

applying for a person of skill would be of that time

frame?

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A. Yes, so the priority date.

Q. Would you say that -- persons who would

have at least a bachelor's degree and then three to

five years of experience, how did you come up with

the three to five years as opposed to one to two, for

example?

A. I don't remember if it was suggested to

me. It just seemed to fit with some skills and

experience. As I say here, I satisfied these

qualifications, I exceed them, but I was trying to

think of people that have worked for me or I've been,

you know, directing in similar tasks or students that

I had, mostly graduate students, and what their

skills were like and how that matched up to what I'm

saying here a person of skill would have. So it is

based on those thoughts.

Q. Okay. And in paragraph 29, you have some

factors that may be considered in determining the

level of skill. Were any of those factors

significant in supporting your opinion or belief that

a POSITA would have three to five years of work

experience?

A. Yeah, I think they all have some

influence there. You know, part of the skills and

experience would be understanding, as I say here, you

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know, what existed before then, so prior art

solutions, understanding the technologies, therefore

the innovations and which might be more appropriate.

Something very recent might be not as well proven, so

you might want to rely on something else.

So it is understanding the pace of

innovation with this type of technology, how

complicated the technology might be, and that's kind

of the technology environment at large, and then

again, what kind of education level that someone may

have and how that informs this in terms of their

skills.

Q. Thank you, Dr. Turnbull. So I'm going to

introduce another exhibit and I will send it in the

chat, so could you please download it and open it.

(Exhibit 3 marked)

THE WITNESS: So this is Exhibit 3 and I

have it open here.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) All right. So I'm

introducing it as Exhibit 3, "Samsung's PR4-2

Preliminary Claim Constructions and Extrinsic

Evidence." It's a 10-page document, and this

document is dated March 28th, 2024.

Dr. Turnbull, did I accurately read the

title of the document?

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A. You might have. I was just looking at

the document. I don't even see that date at the

beginning. It must be at the end of document.

Q. Sure. We will look at that in a second,

but could you look at the title and confirm -- or

read the title.

A. Sure. I think the title says "Samsung's

PR4-2 Preliminary Claim Constructions and Extrinsic

Evidence."

Q. And then if you turn to page nine of the

document, do you see the date March 28th --

March 28th, 2024, and it is signed by your counsel,

Mr. Bright, who is in this deposition?

A. I see that on page 10, March 28th.

Q. Have you seen this document before?

A. I don't recall. I certainly have seen

things in tables like this. And the formatting is so

generic, it doesn't elicit a memory.

Q. Okay. You testified before that you had

reviewed information about constructions and I

believe you called it in the "complaint."

Was this the document or type of document

you were referring to?

A. Yes.

Q. And so it may have been this document or

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something like this that you were -- that you

reviewed and that you were referring to?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you please turn to page four of the

document.

A. Okay, I'm with you.

Q. Do you see that on page four, there is a

table for the '733 Patent?

A. Yes, I see that.

Q. And that it identifies 13 claim terms?

A. Yes, following onto the next page.

Q. Let me ask you a separate question first,

Dr. Turnbull. You've been involved in a lot of

patent litigation, correct?

A. Yeah, a significant amount, yes.

Q. How -- how many cases -- I think you said

you testified in more than 36, but your involvement?

A. It's possible that some of the

depositions or testimony were for multiple ones for

the same case, so maybe not a pure total of 36 with

one-on-one ratio, but I've been involved in more

litigation than that over the past dozen or so years.

Q. So probably more than 50 cases, would you

say?

A. Maybe about that, about 50.

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Q. And have you represented both defendants

or accused infringers and patent owners?

A. Yes, both.

Q. What percentages about?

A. I would say maybe in terms of total work,

probably 80 percent defendants, but sometimes that

would also be the patent owners. I have defended a

patent owner in an IPR, so that's both an IPR and a

defendant that's a patent owner, as opposed to a

plaintiff.

Q. And you have several of your own patents,

correct?

A. I have one and I think a couple of

pending patents as well.

Q. Do you understand that in patent

litigation, the plaintiff or patent owner always

asserts that the patent is infringed and valid?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understood

the question.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Oh. Do you understand that

in patent litigation, the plaintiff or patent owner,

they always assert that the patent is infringed and

valid?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

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THE WITNESS: I can't think of something

I have been involved that's an exception to that, so

that seems generally something, yes, that I have

seen.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And do you understand that

in patent litigation, defendants or accused

infringers always assert that the patent is not

infringed and invalid?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I don't know if that's

always the case. In my experience, I think that's

mostly what I have dealt with.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. Have you ever seen a

patent or heard of a patent where more than three

terms in the patent were found to be indefinite?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I would think so.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. What examples do you

have?

A. Oh, gosh, I just have worked on too many,

but I think it's very likely that I have worked on

some with many terms marked as indefinite.

Q. Found by -- by the Court or a jury to be

indefinite is my question.

A. Oh, yeah, I just don't have any recall of

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that. It is likely that it could have happened in

something I have worked on or something that I had

read about, but nothing comes to mind sitting here

today.

Q. Yeah, I'm not asking you to speculate.

So I'm asking you: Do you have any

recollection or have -- do you remember or have you

heard of a patent where more than three terms in the

patent were found by the Court or a jury to be

indefinite?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I just don't have a memory

of -- of that kind of thing.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) The same question for more

than two terms?

A. Yeah, I just don't remember any rulings.

Things that I have worked on, I have just kind of

taken out of my memory. You know, going back as far

as I've been doing this type of work, I just don't

remember.

Q. So, sitting here, you can't remember any

instances where more than two terms of the patent

were found to be indefinite?

A. No, nothing comes to mind.

Q. Let's turn to page five. On page five

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there were -- this is a table for the '117 Patent.

Do you see that?

A. It looks like it begins on page five,

yes.

Q. And do you see that beginning on page

five, there is eight terms for the '117 Patent?

A. I see that, yes.

Q. Okay. And then let's turn to the table

that begins on page six for the '192 Patent.

And do you see that this lists six terms?

A. Yes.

Q. And so among these three tables for three

patents, it lists a total of 13, plus eight, plus six

terms, correct?

A. It looks like individually that's

correct. It looks like this may be some overlap and

pieces of the terms as well.

Q. So how many distinct rows of the terms

are there total, if you add that up?

A. 27. 27 terms.

Q. That are identified by Samsung in this

pleading, right?

A. I think that's what we have got for this,

yes.

Q. And do you see that for every term, for

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all 27 terms, Samsung's proposed construction is

indefinite?

A. That's what I see here, yes.

Q. All right. And then on the far right

table, it also lists out extrinsic evidence, and do

you see that there is one reference to extrinsic

evidence in the first row and that's repeated in the

first row for all three tables with the same

citation?

A. I do see that.

Q. And there is no other extrinsic evidence

for that row -- for those rows, right?

A. Just what's in the table.

Q. And for all of the -- the other rows, for

the other 24 terms, there is no extrinsic evidence,

right?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, just what we see

here.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And then on page seven, it

states that Samsung identifies one or more experts

who may testify regarding the infringed patents.

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. All right. Let me introduce another

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exhibit. You can close Exhibit 3. I will send it in

the chat.

(Exhibit 4 marked)

THE WITNESS: Oh, there it is. Okay, I

have got Exhibit 4 open.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. So I'm going to

introduce as Exhibit 4 a document entitled "Samsung's

PR4-2 Preliminary Claim Constructions and Extrinsic

Evidence," and from -- it is a 10-page document, and

from page seven of this document, it is dated

April 19th, 2024.

Do you see that?

A. I see that, yes.

Q. Does this appear to be a later version of

the same document that -- that we looked at before,

Exhibit 3?

A. A quick glance looks like it's very

similar, yes, and it's got a later date.

Q. Okay. And can you look like at the

tables starting on page four.

A. Okay, I'm with you.

Q. Okay. And do these appear to be the same

as what we looked at before?

A. Without putting them side by side, it

does look very similar.

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Q. And the first table for the '733 Patent,

it has 13 terms for the second table; on the '117

Patent, it has eight terms; and for the third table

on the '192 Patent is three terms.

Do you see that?

A. I think the last table has six terms.

Q. Oh, six terms, I'm sorry, yeah.

So it appears to have same number of

terms that we counted before?

A. Yes.

Q. And then on page seven, it has your name.

It says "Samsung identifies one or more experts,

including Don Turnbull, Ph.D."

Do you see that?

A. I do see that.

Q. Okay. We can close Exhibit 4.

Oh, but before we close it, does looking

at this refresh your recollection about if this was

one of the documents you reviewed in preparing for

your deposition or in preparing your declaration?

A. Again, it looks very similar, the

formatting and the tables, so it's very likely that

this or the other one or both are things that I

reviewed.

Q. Okay. And any other documents that could

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have been or do you recall -- do you remember

reviewing more than three documents?

A. I certainly looked at more than three

documents.

Q. I meant the court type of documents you

were referring to.

A. Oh, I suspect I saw other court documents

as well, like I mentioned, the original complaint,

for one. There probably were some others that had

the court formatting with, you know, the same type of

first page.

Q. Okay. What else can you tell me about

those other documents you may or may not have

reviewed?

A. Nothing comes to mind.

Q. Let's go back to your declaration. Can

you turn to paragraph 19.

A. Okay. So we are back on Exhibit 1?

Q. Yes, Exhibit 1.

A. And paragraph 19, yes.

Q. And this is your "Materials Considered,"

correct?

A. That's right.

Q. You didn't review -- you don't list

Headwater's infringement contentions here, do you?

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A. No, I don't know if that would be

included in the party's proposed constructions. I

would guess the infringement contentions at least

imply some claim construction ideas or at least what

the claim terms are about.

Q. Okay. Did you review Headwater's

infringement contentions?

A. It rings a bell, yes.

Q. Okay. And you believe that that's

captured in the party's proposed constructions?

A. I'm not sure if it comes to mind, now

that you have asked me that.

Q. Okay. So how are we supposed to know

what you reviewed or didn't or what was in your

materials considered? It sounds like what you have

here is not -- not correct.

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. This is what

I have in this declaration and I think we have

discussed the things that I looked at that I recall.

Mostly, again, for a lot of the court-related

documents, I remember looking at them and I remember

more about their formatting, again, the inclusion of

tables, for example.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. And so right now

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your testimony is that you may have reviewed

Headwater's infringement contentions but you don't

remember?

A. Yes, that's fine.

Q. Can you turn to paragraph 25 of your

report.

A. Okay.

Q. So, here, you state the legal standard

for indefiniteness. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you obtain this understanding from

counsel?

A. I bet in part of the report, counsel gave

me the original text for, but I certainly looked at

issues related to this before. So the origin of the

idea didn't come from counsel on this case, at least

to me.

Q. Okay. And so you feel like you

understand the legal standards set forth in that

paragraph?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: With the caveat that I'm

not an attorney, that's me thinking about it as a

technical person, I think I have an understanding,

yes.

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Q. (BY MR. WANG) And that was the

understanding that you applied in this case?

A. Yes, what I had listed here, and then my

own skills and experience applied to that, yes.

Q. Can you turn to the next paragraph,

paragraph 26.

A. Okay.

Q. Okay. And I'm going to ask you the same

questions. Did you obtain the legal understanding in

paragraph 26 from counsel?

A. Can you ask that question again? I was

just reading the paragraph.

Q. Sure. Did you obtain the legal

understanding or standards set forth in paragraph 26

from counsel?

A. I think I had an understanding of that

before this case. This text I suspect I worked with

counsel to come up with, but I bet it's pretty

boilerplate. So my -- this represents my

understanding, at least regarding this paragraph.

Q. And so your testimony is that this is a

paragraph that you worked on together with counsel,

you know, drafted or assisted in drafting?

A. Yeah, I don't remember who put what

together. It is not likely I would have had this, it

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is probably some boilerplate, but certainly I read

through it; and if I had questions, I would have

discussed it with counsel, I don't recall if I did

that.

Q. Okay. And so you have an understanding

of what's set forth in this paragraph?

A. Yes, I hope so.

Q. And it's what you -- you applied in -- in

giving your opinions in this case?

A. In addition to what this says with my

skills and experience applied, yes.

Q. What's your understanding of the phrase

"zone of uncertainty"?

A. From my point of view, it's the breadth

of uncertainty about what's claimed, especially in

light of what's in the written description in the

background of the patent.

Q. What do you mean the "breadth of

uncertainty"?

A. Well, I was just trying to use a

different word than "zone." I guess the idea there

is how broadly uncertain it is or could be based on

the context of what else is the patent.

Q. That phrase, "zone of uncertainty," did

you come up with that or was that from counsel?

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A. I suspect that may be a legal phrase, so

I don't think I invented that.

Q. Okay. Do you know if it comes from a

case?

A. No, I don't know the origin of that.

Q. You've said the word "breadth" or "broad"

a couple of times. Do you understand that breadth is

not indefiniteness?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Oh, I do. That wasn't what

I was referring to at all.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) So you agree that the fact

that a claim term is broad does not make it

indefinite?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: It probably depends on the

claim term and maybe the rest of the claim or at

least that part of the claim term.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) So, yeah, I just want to

explore your understanding one way or the other.

So is it that breadth is indefiniteness

or it is not indefiniteness?

A. Oh, I don't think I was saying that

either way. I was just using it as an example to try

to expand on the meaning of the zone of uncertainty

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that you asked me about, and "zone" to me means an

area, not maybe a specific point; and that implies

breadth to me, as in not one specific thing. You're

giving best effort to try to ascertain it, to attain

certainty, and so here we're discussing a zone of

uncertainty.

Q. Okay. So I'm not asking about

uncertainty anymore. I'm just talking about the word

"breadth." Do you agree that breadth is not

uncertainty -- I -- I'm sorry, breadth is not

indefiniteness?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Well, unfortunately, that

is a pretty broad question. It would depend on the

context of the term or the claim to know that for

certain or at least certainly for everything.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. So your view is the

fact that a claim term is broad, that that alone can

make it indefinite?

A. No, I don't think I said that.

Q. Okay. Do you agree with that or not?

A. Can you ask it again, please?

Q. The fact that a claim term is broad alone

can make it indefinite?

A. I think it would depend.

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Q. So you think it might -- that breadth

alone could make something indefinite?

A. It is possible, yes.

Q. Okay. And then in paragraph 26 you say

that "a claim does not provide clear notice of a

scope if the claim term may be reasonably interpreted

to multiple different methods which provide different

results, and the intrinsic evidence offers no

guidance regarding which method should be used."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you agree with that statement?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. When you say -- refer to "multiple

different methods," what about if a claim is a system

claim, did you mean to include systems?

A. That's a good question. Let me think

about that for a moment. It is possible it could

apply to some claims as well, yes.

Q. Okay. But the point that you're trying

to convey here is this idea where -- would you call

it ambiguity that a claim term or a method can be two

different things and it's not clear which of those

two things it refers to?

A. I think "ambiguity" is a very good word,

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and it could mean -- it could be more than just two

things. It could be so ambiguous that there are

multiple, as I say here, and not just two.

Q. Okay. But "multiple" means at least two,

right?

A. I will agree with that, yes.

Q. I'm going to jump around a bit, but

first, let me ask you: Do you need a break,

Mr. Turnbull (sic), or do you want to keep on going?

A. I think I'm fine right now. Maybe 10, 15

minutes I'll let you know, but not in the middle of a

question.

Q. All right. I -- let's just look at the

heading of your -- your opinions -- or the terms.

So the first term that you opine on is

"device agents" at the heading above paragraph 32.

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Can you tell me what -- based on

what we were just talking about, what is ambiguous

about this or can you give me the multiple meanings

that you were referring to?

A. I -- well, I mean, I feel like the burden

isn't on me to give the multiple meanings or a

meaning, it is the burden on the patent; but as I say

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here right in paragraph 32, based on what the claim

term "device agents" is and what's in the patent, a

person of skill could not ascertain the meaning of

this term with reasonable certainty. There is just

nothing that narrows that down.

I also say here that it is just not a

commonly known term in the art. I'm not sure I have

ever run across it before and the specification

doesn't give me enough context to truly determine

what that is. I, you know, go into this with a good

faith effort at trying to understand what's in the

patent, what the patent describes, the system and the

methods and looking at claim terms, and "device

agent," there is just not enough in the patent that

lets me understand what that means with reasonable

certainty.

Q. Okay. I do understand that's your

opinion, and we will get into that at length today,

but my -- my first question, I want you to

concentrate on my question, Dr. Turnbull.

For this term, do you identify multiple

meanings and say what they are --

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) -- and say they are

ambiguous?

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A. Yeah, I guess that's what this whole

section is discussing.

Q. Okay. What are the multiple meanings,

can you tell me?

A. I guess if this answers your question,

like I say in paragraph 35, the claim language does

not eliminate the meaning of the term "device agent."

Claim one recites that a plurality of device agents

are communicatively coupled to the service control

device link agent through an agent communication bus;

that each device agent is identifiable by an

associated device agent identifier; and that a

particular device agent receives message content

delivered by a service control device link agent.

These generic operations do not inform

the boundaries of a device agent, they leave open the

question of whether a device agent adopts the meaning

of agent, and if so, how the prefix "device" modifies

its meaning.

Q. So would you say that the last part is

responsive to my question --

A. I would say --

Q. -- about multiple meanings?

A. I would say all of it, if I understood

your question currently.

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Q. So is the issue that you're identifying,

that device agent could mean the same thing as agent;

that's one possible interpretation?

A. That's -- that's possible. As I say

here, it leaves open the question of whether device

agent adopts the meaning of an agent, and if so, how

device as a prefix modifies that meaning, so --

Q. And it --

A. -- it doesn't mean agent, and then does

device modify it in some way?

Q. And so another meaning you give is if the

prefix "device" modifies the meaning. What you mean

by that is narrowed the meaning, right?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I think it just gives more

specificity. I guess that could be narrowing, but it

might be a whole class of a type of agent. Again, we

just don't know based on what's in the patent.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And when you say "gives

more specificity," that means narrow, right? It has

a different meaning?

A. I think "narrow" is fine.

Q. All right. Let's jump to the -- the next

term on top of paragraph 46, above paragraph 56.

Do you see the Subsection B, "at least

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one of the devices" -- no, no. Sorry. Let me -- I

jumped too far ahead.

All right. Above paragraph 42,

Subsection B, "wherein the particular device agent."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And for this, do you identify two or more

meanings in giving your opinions?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: No, I just have what is in

paragraph 42 an 43 related to that.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. Let's jump to the

next term above paragraph 44, "device agents."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you identify two or more different

meanings for this term?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Just what I have in

paragraphs 44 and 45 is what I discussed here.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Yeah, I don't see anything

in these paragraphs about two different meanings or

interpretations. Do you -- do you -- can you point

me to something?

A. Just what I have discussed here.

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Q. All right. The next term above paragraph

46, Section B, beginning with "at least one of the

devices," do you see that heading?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. For this term, and I know it's

long, but do you identify multiple meanings or

interpretations of it?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Just what I have in the

following paragraphs, that's my discussion.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. And can you point

me to anything in the following paragraphs that's

specifically identified as multiple meanings or

interpretations of the claim term?

A. The body of the paragraphs discuss the

difficulties in trying to understand what these terms

mean.

Q. So I do understand you to be making that

opinion, Dr. Turnbull, but again, I would ask you to

focus on my question, which is: Do you identify

multiple meanings, a Meaning A and a Meaning B, and

set forth what they are?

A. No, I don't feel like that's my purpose

here. My purpose is to point out the ambiguity in

the patents, not to help you define your claim terms.

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I'm saying that the reason I have this entire

declaration is these claim terms are not well defined

and the scope of them can't be understood by a person

of skill with any reasonable certainty.

Q. Okay. So thank you, Mr. -- Dr. Turnbull.

The same question for the term in the

'192 Patent above paragraph 49, do you see that,

"software components"?

A. Yes.

Q. For this term, do you identify multiple

meanings or interpretations of this term?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

THE WITNESS: I think I have the same

answer, what I have in this section is discussing

what the claims suggest and the ambiguity throughout

the document and trying to determine what that means.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. Can you point me to

multiple meanings or interpretations of this claim

term that you set forth in these paragraphs 49

through 53?

A. They are what they are. They -- they

discuss the issues.

Q. Okay. And so if I were to say that I

don't see multiple meanings being set forth, would

you disagree with me?

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A. I would say that the point of this

section and the others is that these claim terms are

indefinite; and in good faith, I was trying to

determine what they are, and I offer some analysis in

my opinion about that, and that's what these sections

contain.

Q. And do those -- does that good faith

analysis or opinions set forth multiple meanings for

the claim term?

A. No, they set forth the idea that they are

so imprecise that you can't ascertain with reasonable

certainty and therefore there could be multiple

meanings. That's my point.

Q. Okay. So for the same question for the

next term, B on paragraph 54, this is a longer term

begins "wherein one of the message delivery

triggers," do you see that?

A. I do, on page 15.

Q. The same question: Do you set forth

multiple meanings or interpretations for this claim

term?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I would say I have the same

answer from the previous one.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And then on the last term,

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Subsection C, paragraph 56, "Wherein one of the

message delivery triggers if the receipt of a

particular network element message from one of the

network elements," do you see that?

A. I do, on page 20.

Q. All right. And then do you set forth

multiple meanings?

A. Again, the same answer.

Q. For this one, you do talk about the term

"particular" where -- right, where it could be

particular by time or in the manner. Do you see

that?

A. That's right.

Q. And would that be a specific example of

multiple meanings or interpretations?

A. I --

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I would say it is an

example of how unclear the claim term is.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay.

MR. WANG: All right. Let's go off the

record.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the

record. The time is 12:04 p.m.

(Recess taken)

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the

record. The time is 12:12 p.m.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Welcome back, Dr. Turnbull.

A. Thank you.

Q. Since we were just back from a break, I'm

going to go ahead and introduce the patents as

exhibits so we have them. So I'm going to send three

files, and then I will go through them one at a time,

so --

(Exhibit 5 marked)

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Would you please download

them and then open Exhibit 5 to the depo.

A. Sure, I will get them all downloaded here

first, and then I will open up Exhibit 5.

Okay. I have got Exhibit 5 open.

Q. Okay. So I'm introducing as Exhibit 5

the '733 Patent, which is U.S. Patent 8,406,733. And

the first page says "Exhibit 1" because this was the

version that was filed with Headwater's complaint,

but the document is long, 195 pages.

Does this appear to be a true and

correct -- true and correct copy of the '733 Patent

that you discuss in your declaration, Dr. Turnbull?

A. It certainly has the page count and it

seems very similar, yes.

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Q. So, yes, it does appear to be a true and

correct copy of the '733 Patent?

A. Yes, I will agree to that.

(Exhibit 6 marked)

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Could you please open up

Exhibit 6.

A. Okay.

MR. WANG: So Exhibit -- I will introduce

as Exhibit 6 to Dr. Turnbull's declaration a

document. It says "Exhibit 2" on the first page

because it was Exhibit 2 to the complaint; and on the

second page, it says U.S. Patent Number 9,192,117,

and the document is 200 pages.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Does this appear to be a

true and correct copy of the '117 Patent that you

discuss in your declaration, Dr. Turnbull?

A. It looks like it.

(Exhibit 7 marked)

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And then could you please

open Exhibit 7.

A. Okay, I have got it open.

MR. WANG: I will introduce as Exhibit 7

to Dr. Turnbull's declaration a document on the first

page says "Exhibit 3" because it was Exhibit 3 to the

complaint; and on the second page, it says U.S.

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Patent Number 9,615,198 -- I'm sorry, strike that.

It says Patent Number 9,615,192.

Does this appear to be a true and correct

copy of the '192 Patent discussed in your

declaration, Dr. Turnbull?

A. Yes, it looks like it.

Q. All right. We can close them, but if you

need to refer back to them, just let me know.

If we could turn back to your

declaration, Dr. Turnbull, could I ask you to turn to

paragraph 31.

A. Okay. Okay, I'm with you.

Q. So here you provide an overview of the

specification of the asserted patents, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And in paragraph 31, you discuss

Figure 16, and you talk about it disclosing a service

processer. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Why did you choose to discuss this figure

in your overview of the three asserted patents?

A. It has some of the claim terms. For one,

it seems to portray in this example or this figure

many aspects of the claims as well.

Q. Which claim terms does it have?

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A. I think we have "agent" as part of our

effort to understand that, and we have ideas relating

to "service," whether it is service controller or

other service-type things; and then it has some kind

of view of the architecture of the claim system.

Q. And what does -- the Service Processor

100, what does that have to do with the claim terms?

A. Oh, exactly what I have here in my

report. On page 11 in paragraph 31, "Figure 16

discloses a Service Processor 100 that can execute on

a mobile device and comprises numerous agents," end

quotes. Figure 16 further shows a Service Control

Link 1653 between a Service Control Server Link 1638

on the Service Controller 122 and a Service Control

Device Link 1691 on Service Processor 100.

Q. And then you go on to say "The Service

Control Link 1653 is described as a control plan

communication link that establishes secure

bidirectional communications for controlling and

monitoring service policies." Right?

A. That's right. That's from the patent.

Q. And you say "Figure shows multiple

agents," and so would -- can you point me to the

different agents that the figure shows?

A. I may not get all of them because it is a

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busy figure, but I see a billing agent, a policy

control agent, a service monitor agent, an

application interface agent, a policy

implementation -- implementation agent. And that

might be it for this figure.

Q. Okay. And then do you see the box that

is 1691 Service Control Device Link?

A. I see that.

Q. Okay. So that doesn't have the word

"agent" in it, right?

A. No, it's --

Q. Okay. Do you think that can be an agent?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I can just

say what you just noted, that it's described as

"Service Control Device Link."

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And in analyzing the

asserted patents, are you -- do you have the

understanding that this is not an agent or it can be

an agent one way or the other?

A. I think the simplest thing to agree on is

that it doesn't describe itself as an agent in this

figure, it just says "Service Control Device Link."

Q. Okay. So do you have any opinions on

that one way or the other whether that can be an

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agent?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I think in this figure, I

can just take it for what it says, and it doesn't say

that's an agent right here. I know we have some

other issues about device link agent, but right here,

this is just described as Service Control Device Link

1691.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And that -- that's all

you're comfortable saying, just the fact that the

figure -- that the notation of the figure doesn't use

the word "agent"?

A. That's right.

Q. In your opinion, does Figure 16 show an

embodiment of all three patents?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I would say no. It is

simply this figure with a very long patent written

description. I think I chose it here because, as I

said, it has many of the terms that we're discussing

in my declaration.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. Let's turn to your

opinions for the first term, "device agent." All

right, sir, and paragraph 33. Oh, I think it starts

at paragraph 32.

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A. I'm with you.

Q. Okay. So you agree that the term "agent"

is commonly known in the art?

A. It is. And then even within that, there

are different definitions, as I have in my

declaration here, of what "agent" might mean.

Q. And so the term "agent" has a plain and

ordinary meaning?

A. I think so, yes, especially based on the

context of the body of the patent, yes.

Q. Okay. And here you -- you say that "in

the context of a computer network agent means

software that performs certain functions on behalf of

another element."

Do you see that in paragraph 33?

A. Yes, I'm with you.

Q. And then so you agree with that statement

that I just read?

A. Yeah, that's from the dictionary

definition.

Q. And then from that you cite I think three

dictionary definitions?

A. That's right.

Q. Let me -- let me introduce -- let me

introduce one of them. Bear with me for one second.

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(Exhibit 8 marked)

Q. (BY MR. WANG) I will introduce as

Exhibit 8 -- could you please download Exhibit 8.

A. I have got it open, Exhibit 8.

Q. Okay. So I'm introducing as Exhibit 8 a

three-page document entitled "Dictionary of Computer

and Internet Terms," and it bears the Bates number

SAM-HW-2_00215498 through 500.

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Does this appear to be a true and correct

copy of the excerpt from this "Dictionary of Computer

and Internet Terms" that you relied on?

A. It looks like it is the same page, yes.

Q. Okay. And this is the third definition

that you rely on in paragraph 33, right?

A. That's right.

Q. Could you read the definition of "agent"

in this Exhibit 8.

A. Okay. "A piece of software that performs

a service for someone, usually silently and

automatically. For example, an agent might run on a

client computer to keep the server informed of its

needs."

Q. Thank you. And so that's consistent with

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your statement in paragraph 33 that "agent" means

software that performs certain functions on behalf of

another element?

A. Performs a service for someone, yes.

Q. Okay. And is that what you meant by this

sentence when you say "software that performs a

certain function"? So a service would be an example

of a function?

A. Yes.

Q. And that is the plain and ordinary

meaning of "agent" in the context of the asserted

patents as well?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I would say all three

definitions give you the picture of a plain and

ordinary meaning. I think that's why I have three in

here.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. And your opinion

here is given from the time frame of 2008/2009, I

believe you testified before.

Has the meaning of the word "agent"

changed since then to today, for example?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: It's possible there could

be other definitions since then. That was quite a

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while ago, but the context of the patent and the

priority dates that we mentioned, these dictionaries

seemed to help define it and give us our plain and

ordinary meaning.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. I know that when

we're looking at claim construction, we are looking

at it from the time of the invention, but I would

like to know if just if the meaning of this word has

changed to today.

Are you aware of, you know, a different

meaning, if we're looking at it today, for example?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I would say nothing comes

to mind specifically in terms of meaning. I bet many

years later there are probably, you know, different

examples of what might -- people might use for

"agents," that would be one addition.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. If we just look at

the word "device" by itself in isolation, does that

have a commonly understood meaning in the art?

A. I think you would have to have the

context of what kind of system or method or systems

and methods to understand what you meant by "device."

Q. But would the word "device" itself have a

plain and ordinary meaning?

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A. I would say so. Again, I would have to

think about it in the context of what's described in

the patent for the plain and ordinary meaning based

on what's in the patent.

Q. Have you -- have you considered that,

what the plain and ordinary meaning of just the word

"device" is in the patent?

A. I guess a little bit but nothing

specifically, because if I had, I probably would have

included that in my report.

Q. Would it be an end user device?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I think that's possible. I

don't know if that's what I would say it is

specifically.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) So I understand the claim

term is "device agents," but since you gave the

opinion that "agent" has a plain and ordinary

meaning, if the claim term had recited just "agent"

and not "device agent" in that hypothetical, do you

have any opinions about indefiniteness?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: That is probably too big of

a hypothetical to give you an answer here in

realtime. I would have to go back and think about

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that and see all the examples where "device agent" or

even "agent" are mentioned to be able to answer that.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. But you did not

think about that hypothetical, if you will, if the

claim had recited "agent" instead of "device agent"?

A. I don't recall doing that.

Q. Okay. And sitting here, you don't have

an opinion that that would be indefinite, that the

claim would be indefinite if so written?

A. Sitting here, I haven't thought through

that, no.

Q. Okay. Let's turn to your opinion in

paragraph 34 of your declaration.

A. Okay.

Q. Okay. So in paragraph 34 you say that "a

'device agent' is not a known term in the art, and it

is unclear how adding the prefix 'device' affects its

scope relative to the term 'agent'," correct?

A. Yes, I think that is a good summary of

what we were just discussing, in fact.

Q. And you're giving this opinion as of

2008/2009 that a "device agent" is not known in the

art?

A. I would say, yes, at least that.

Q. Okay. And is that true up until today,

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that in 2024, that device term -- "device agent" is

not -- is not known in the art, that term?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Nothing comes to mind more

currently. I don't really look at it from that

perspective, but just sitting here today, it still

doesn't seem to be a term that I have ever read

before and not known in the art.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) You don't cite any evidence

in paragraph 34, do you, for your statement that a

"device agent" is not known in the art, correct?

A. I would say with this paragraph and many

others, the evidence is really my own skills and

experience of someone that's been doing this type of

work, and it is not a term that I have seen before in

the art, really anything that I have ever read.

So, just like I say here, based on my

skills and experience, you just don't know what

adding a device does to add to the scope relative to

the term "agent."

Q. Okay. So to answer my question, you

don't cite any evidence in paragraph 34 and you're

making the statement just based -- based on your

experience and background; is that correct?

A. Well, as well as analyzing the patent

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itself.

Q. Okay. Anything else that you're relying

upon for that?

A. Well, we couldn't find it in any

dictionary. That's why I started out with using

"agent," but I would say my skills and experience are

the main thing that drives this opinion.

Q. Okay. And the same thing about the rest

of your declaration, do you -- it's -- may not be

cited in this paragraph, but do you recall any other

citations to evidence for your opinion that a device

agent is not -- is not known in the art cited

elsewhere in your declaration?

A. No, I don't think I have anything else

about that in my declaration.

Q. Are you aware of Samsung documents that

use the term "device agent"?

A. Nothing comes to mind right now.

Q. Are you aware of any Samsung patents or

patent applications that use the term "device agent"?

A. I don't think so. Nothing comes to mind.

Q. Are you aware of any prior art cited in

the asserted patents that use the term "device

agent"?

A. You mean like the cited references that

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we see on the --

Q. Yes.

A. -- second and third and fourth page?

Q. Yes.

A. No, no, nothing comes to mind.

Q. Give me one minute here. Okay. Can you

open the '733 Patent.

A. Sure. That's Exhibit 5 for us?

Q. I believe so.

A. Okay. I have got it open.

Q. Okay. Can I turn your attention to page

three of the patent and -- or page four of the PDF

that -- that has a long list of references cited.

A. Okay, I'm with you.

Q. Okay. And before that I should ask you

to turn to page two of the patent where it says "U.S.

Patent Documents."

Do you see that?

A. I do see that title.

Q. Is that -- yeah. Do you understand the

following that to be a list of U.S. Patents or patent

applications that are listed on the face of the '733

Patent?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So turning back to page three, do

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you see on the right column about right in the middle

there is a reference named Maes, M-A-E-S?

A. I do. I think I know the author.

Q. Okay. Who is the author?

A. I would guess it is Patti Maes. She was

at the MIT media lab then.

Q. Okay. I don't think it's Patti, but let

me -- let me show you the patent.

A. Okay.

Q. Because I am curious to find out, now

that you have peaked my interest. So let me send

that in the Zoom. Oh, I'm sorry, let me rename it to

be the right exhibit number and I will resend. It

will be the same document but it will just have the

exhibit number.

(Exhibit 9 marked)

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Can you open -- can you

download and open this, please?

A. Yeah, I just downloaded it with the

Exhibit 9 notice. Oh, it's not, it's a different

Maes. Or "Maes" I think is how she might say her

name.

Q. Okay. So I am introducing as Exhibit 9 a

U.S. Patent application publication with the

Publication Number U.S. 2006/0218395 A1. Did I read

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that correctly on the first page?

A. I think so. And that's just our

Exhibit 9 today.

Q. Yes. And could I ask you to compare this

to the '733 Patent, what we were looking at with the

Maes. Does that seem to be the same number?

A. It looks like the same number.

Q. The same number ending in 395, right?

A. That's right, an application.

Q. And have you -- have you seen this

Exhibit 9 before?

A. It does not ring a bell.

Q. And do you know the author, Stephanie H.

Maes?

A. No, I don't know that author.

Q. Do you see that the patent is assigned to

Oracle International Corporation in Redwood Shores?

A. I do. I know exactly where they're at.

Q. And that's the same Oracle we all know,

right?

A. Yes, I would assume so.

Q. Okay. And then do you see the date of

this patent public -- patent application publication?

It says it was filed September 19th, 2005, right?

A. Oh, I do, in the first column --

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Q. Yes.

A. -- I see that.

Q. And then it says it is a continuation, in

part, of an application that was filed on -- in

March 23rd, 2005.

A. I see that as well.

Q. Can you read the title of the patent.

A. It is called "Device Agent."

Q. And then can you read the abstract?

A. Oh, you want me to read it out loud?

Q. Yes.

A. I was just reading it myself.

"Device agents and methods are disclosed.

In one embodiment, the method comprises monitoring,

at an access device, at least a subset of device

activity. The method further comprises the detecting

an activity satisfies at least one condition

specified by a policy and executing at least one

action in the policy associated with the satisfied

condition."

Q. Thank you Dr. Turnbull. Let me turn your

attention to paragraph five.

A. Okay, I see the middle sentence there. I

don't want to get hung up on it, it may not affect

us, but it seems like something is grammatically

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wrong with the second sentence in the abstract.

Q. I see that, but I don't have -- have

anything to offer about that.

A. Okay, I'm sorry, you said to jump to

someplace else?

Q. Yeah, to paragraph five, please.

A. Okay. Okay.

Q. Okay. So paragraph five -- and I will

just read the beginning of it -- it says "Device

agents and methods are disclosed. In some

embodiments, the method comprises monitoring, at an

access device, (e.g., a wireless device, such as a

mobile telephone), at least a subset of device

activity. An activity that satisfies at least one

policy condition is detected."

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And then let me turn your attention to

paragraph 29 on page 11.

So it says, "As will be described in

further detail below with reference to Figure 2,

wireless devices 104, 106, 108 may each include a

device agent (not illustrated). Device agents may be

used to enforce policies on device activities."

"By way of example, policies may be

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enforced on communications transmitted from and/or

received by wireless devices 104, 106, 108, data

usage, websites accessed by the access device,

software installations, configuration activity,

and/or any other type of device activity."

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. This patent application publication is in

the same field as the asserted patents, right?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: It could be. Without

looking at it, it is hard to say specifically.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) All right. But it's cited

on the face of the '733 Patent, right?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. Have you seen anything in this Exhibit 9

that suggests it's not in the same field or in a

different field?

A. For seeing it for the first time, I just

can't say without more of a review.

Q. Okay. But, for example, based on the

first page or what we have looked at -- and I know we

have only looked at parts -- do you have any reason

to believe it is in a different field or an unrelated

field?

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A. I just couldn't say until I have looked

at the whole thing.

Q. Okay. But the parts that we have looked

at, or the first page, do you see anything in it that

suggests it's in a different field?

A. I just can't say. I also don't really

know what you mean by "field." I don't know if

you're referring to the patent code designations or

something else.

Q. No, I'm using "field" in the same way

that you used when you were talking about the level

of ordinary skill for the asserted patents.

A. Okay. If you'll ask that question again,

then that will help me out.

Q. Sure. Based on the parts of Exhibit 9

that we have looked at, including the first page and

the parts that we read, do you see anything therein

that suggests Exhibit 9, this patent application

publication, is in a different field from the

asserted patents?

A. Just the little bit that we have looked

at gives me indication they're both describing, I

guess, software. I will agree to that.

Q. Okay. So is the answer to my question

"no"?

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A. I just can't give you an answer without

really looking at the rest of it. Even, for example,

you know, paragraph 29 is pretty broad, and even just

to look at that, it's clearly, you know, including

information at least 28 more paragraphs above that.

And then the last sentence essentially

says "and/or any other type of device activity,"

that's so broad, again, without context or reviewing

it, I really can't say.

Q. Okay. Can you look at Figure 2 of this

Exhibit 9?

A. Okay, that's what paragraph 29 is

referencing, right?

Q. Right.

A. I see it.

Q. Okay. Do you see -- do you see this

figure and it has a component that's designated with

the numeral "204 device agent"?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And this shows this device agent

within the device, right?

A. I'm not sure. To be honest, looking at

this for the first time, this doesn't seem to be what

I originally thought they meant by "device agent."

This is kind of an odd figure. What's inside, I

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guess what we have defined as Box 200, has several

different keywords that have different numbers

associated with them and they all seemed somewhat

different technically. We have, you know, broader

things and then protocols. I would say this figure

makes my work less helpful, even based on looking at

paragraph 29.

Q. Okay. And then -- but I'm asking about

the device agent, it is identified with a numeral

"204," right?

A. I do see that, I will agree with you

there.

Q. And do you see the bidirectional arrow to

an access provider in this figure?

A. I do. I will be honest with you, I don't

really know what it means.

Q. Okay. Let's return back to your

declaration and talk about your paragraph 34.

A. Sure.

Q. So, in paragraph 34, you say, "Device

agent is not known and is unclear how adding the

prefix 'device' affects its scope relative to the

term 'agent'."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

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Q. I think we talked about before how adding

a -- first, do you agree that the word "device"

modified "agent"?

A. It could, yes.

Q. What possibilities are there apart from

modifying "agent"?

A. That's just a giant hypothetical in the

world of all the vocabulary words that are out there.

It would depend on the context.

Q. Okay. Can you give me an example of what

that would be?

A. No. That's just a hypothetical so broad

that I can't even begin to try to do that, certainly

not in realtime sitting here today.

Q. Okay. So I asked you if it modifies it.

So you said "it could." So that suggests it might

not?

A. That's right, it is unknown. That's --

Q. Okay. So what would it be if it wasn't

modifying it?

A. I just can't tell you sitting here today.

That is just too broad of a question.

Q. Okay. I think we discussed before that a

device agent is narrower than just the scope is

narrower than just "agent." Do you agree with that?

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A. I think that's very possible. When --

when you're adding modifying words to something, you

would hope you're narrowing it. It's hard to say

that universally.

Q. Okay. And then let's continue with your

declaration. On page 37 --

A. Paragraph 37?

Q. Yes. I'm sorry, let's go to paragraph

35. That's what I meant to ask about.

So we -- you highlighted this paragraph

and we were talking about the first term, and then

particularly the last sentence where you say, talking

about the specification, "they leave open the

question whether of 'device agent' adopts the meaning

of 'agent,' and if so, how the prefix 'device'

modifies its meaning."

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And so here you seem to be agreeing that

"device" is a modifier for "agent"?

A. I say it leaves open the question. It is

one possibility, yes.

Q. Well, the very last part you say "how the

prefix device modifies its meaning." So you seem to

be saying that it is modifying its meaning, you're

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just not sure how it does so?

A. And I say, if so, how the prefix device

modifies its meaning. So we just don't have enough

information. This is one idea that I had that leaves

open this question.

Q. Okay. And so then the -- the ambiguity

that you're concerned about is whether "device agent"

means exactly the same thing as "agent" or if it's

something else that's narrower; is that fair?

A. Yeah, if it adopts, I guess, the plain

and ordinary meaning or some of the dictionary

definitions.

Q. Or if it was something else that was

narrower than those definitions, right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And so if there were like a

narrower understanding of "device agent" that was put

forth, that would resolve the ambiguity, right?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I guess it would depend on

where that comes from. If we're looking at what's in

the patent specification, there is just nothing else

in there, as I think I made the point several times

today, and it is also in my declaration here.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. And you don't

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purport to give or propose a specific meaning or

understanding of "device agent" or multiple such

meanings, right?

A. No. Just like I say here, it leaves open

the question of what "device agent" might mean.

Q. Let's turn to page 15 of your

declaration. I think this is within paragraph 39.

A. Okay.

Q. Okay. And so in yellow, you highlight

every item in the figure that has the word "agent,"

correct?

A. Yes, I think we kind of walked through

that before when you were asking me that.

Q. And there are no other items identified

as "agent" in the figure, apart from what you've

highlighted in yellow in Figure 16?

A. I don't think so, no.

Q. And then all of these items highlighted

in yellow are within a bigger box with the numeral

100. Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's identified as "the internal

functional diagram of device."

Do you see that?

A. I do.

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MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And so would that inform

then the meaning of "agent"?

A. Possibly. I guess we're just back to if

they meant "agent," they should have just said

"agent," and if they wanted to define a "device

agent," they should have done a better job of doing

that. It is just there is nothing in there that

tells a person of skill what the scope of "device

agent" is.

Q. And you don't mention this identification

at the top, right, that says "internal functional

diagram of device"? I don't recall that in your

declaration.

A. No, that wasn't a goal of mine to

describe everything in every figure.

Q. Okay. You also mention -- in these

paragraphs you mention Headwater's infringement

contentions. Do you see that?

A. Headwater's interpretation, is that what

you mean?

Q. I think you also mention Headwater's

infringement contentions, like in paragraph 38.

A. That's certainly possible.

Q. And this came up before, but I believe

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that you said that you didn't recall if you had

reviewed the infringement contentions.

Does this refresh your recollection or

change your answer one way or the other?

A. Yeah, I think this fits into the -- I

looked at some of the documents that had the court

formatting with some tables in it and I think that's

what that is referring to here.

Q. Did you review the contentions yourself

or did you discuss with counsel and form an

understanding from counsel about the infringement

contentions?

A. I would say it is safe to say I did both

of those.

Q. Okay.

MR. BRIGHT: And, Counsel --

MR. WANG: I'm sorry, what was that?

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Apologies, Counsel,

just a heads up, we have five to ten before a media

change is needed.

MR. WANG: Okay. Maybe we will go for

five more minutes.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Do you know when

Headwater's infringement contentions were served?

A. No, I wouldn't even try to memorize that

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because I know I could look it up.

Q. Do you know if that would be within the

past year, for example?

A. That seems likely.

Q. Okay. You didn't rely on the

infringement contentions as extrinsic evidence, do

you?

A. I guess it's extrinsic and it is

something I looked at, so it is something I

considered.

Q. Okay. You would agree that a person of

skill reading the patent, you know, at the time of

the invention would not consider Headwater's

infringement contentions?

A. I don't know if they would have access to

that, so probably not.

Q. And it would be 15 years before they

existed, right?

A. In that case, yes.

Q. Do you agree that -- what you've

highlighted in Figure 16 that we looked at before, do

you agree that's what's highlighted in yellow are

device agents?

A. No, they're just simply described as

different types of agents.

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Q. Okay. But I think in your opinions, you

say that -- at least you acknowledged that they could

be considered device agents, in paragraph 40, for

example?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: It's possible.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. You agree that a

person of skill would not read the claims in light of

Headwater's infringement contentions to understand

whether the claims -- whether the person of skill

could ascertain the meaning of the claims with

reasonable certainty, correct?

A. I think that was too long of a sentence

for me, so I don't --

Q. A person -- a POSITA would not read the

claims in light of Headwater's infringement

contentions to understand whether he or she could

ascertain the meaning of claim with reasonable

certainty, correct?

A. Yeah, I don't know if they would help.

MR. WANG: All right. Let's go off the

record.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the

record. The time is 1:03 p.m.

(Recess taken)

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the

record. The time is 11:10 p.m.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Welcome back,

Dr. Turnbull.

A. Hey, thank you.

Q. In paragraph 38 of your declaration, you

provide a copy of Figure 29. Do you see that?

A. That's right.

Q. And in Figure 29, you -- you also

identify several elements in yellow, correct?

A. That's right.

Q. And those are agents?

A. That's right. That's my highlighting, of

course, not in the patent itself.

Q. And are all of these agents on the device

in Figure 29?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I am not sure. I would

have to look at where it's described in the patent to

be sure of that.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) What's Figure 29

disclosing?

A. I guess broadly some of the functionality

of the system proposed.

Q. Can you be more specific on that?

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A. Not without looking at what it says for

Figure 29 in the patent itself.

Q. Okay. But just looking at your

declaration and your opinions in paragraph 38, you

don't recall what Figure 29 is showing?

A. No, just simply what I have described

here. Like I say, Figure 29 illustrates various

"agents," quote, as yellow, separately from the

"apps", quote, in blue.

Q. Do you have the opinion that any of the

agents that you highlight in yellow are not on the

device?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall looking at

this right here today.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Do you know how Figure 29

relates to Figure 16?

A. Oh, not specifically. Off the top of my

head, no. There are just too many figures.

Q. Okay. If you want to turn to the '733

Patent --

A. Okay.

Q. -- which I think was Exhibit --

Exhibit 5.

A. Okay. I have got it open.

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Q. Okay. If you want to look at the

description of Figure 29 and a description. Let me

point you to that.

A. Okay.

Q. It is on page 114 of the patent --

A. Okay.

Q. -- or column three of the PDF.

A. Column three?

Q. Column three, yes.

Do you see that it says that "Figure 29

is a functional diagram illustrating a device

communication stack that allows for implementing

verifiable traffic-shaping policy, access control

policy, and/or service monitoring policy in

accordance with the sum of the embodiments."

A. Yes, that's what it says.

Q. Okay. Is that consistent with your

understanding?

A. That sounds about right.

Q. And so what Figure 29 shows is located on

the device, right, because it illustrates a device

communication stack?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, in accordance with

some embodiments. So this is one example, yeah, but

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it doesn't specifically say on the device, it just

says "illustrating a device communication stack."

So it's, I guess, just an example or an

embodiment of the -- the stack and what the

functionality is there.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. Do you offer any

opinion that Headwater's infringement contentions

constitute a disclaimer of claim scope?

A. That phrase doesn't ring a bell in my

report.

Q. Do you have any such opinions sitting

here?

A. I'm not even sure what that means. I

suspect there are -- that has got a legal meaning

disclaimer specifically, so I certainly couldn't give

you any opinion about that today.

Q. All right. Can you turn to paragraph 42

of your report, please, of your declaration.

A. Sure. I will say that I think I have the

habit of saying "report" and I might mean

"declaration," so maybe we're both using that a

little bit interchangeably today. I hope that's

okay.

Q. Can we come to a mutual stipulation that

"declaration" means "report" and "report" means

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"declaration"?

A. I could agree to that.

Q. So agreed. So could you please turn to

paragraph 42.

A. Okay. I'm with you.

Q. Okay. So here you offer an opinion about

this "Wherein" term in claim 19 of the '733 Patent,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And this paragraph 42 contains your

entire opinion about indefiniteness, right?

A. Related to this, yes.

Q. And does this opinion depend on your

earlier opinion about the term "device agents" being

indefinite?

A. Yes, I think they're very related. There

is an overlap here because that's the term we're

talking about here.

Q. Okay. So if the term in claim one

"device agents" was found not to be indefinite, you

would not have an opinion that claim 19, this chart,

is indefinite?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: You know, I'm not sure. I

would probably have to hear what we came up with,

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what the ruling was, and then go back and look at

that, and then put it in the context of what we have

in this claim as well.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. So do you have an

additional independent reason for why this is

indefinite?

A. Well, it is a different claim, so I would

have to look at the context of the claim, compare it

to -- and again, it would depend on what ruling we

get if it's indefinite or not.

Q. Okay. But here, at least in paragraph

42, you only have a few sentences, and in the second

sentence you say, "For similar reasons, a POSITA

would not be reasonably certain how to determine

whether a device agent...," right?

A. That's right. And it says, "With respect

to claims 1 and 30." So I see how you're asking the

question there, I think.

Q. Yes. And so -- and I think you testified

a minute ago that it's related to your opinions about

the term "device agents" in claims 1 and 30?

A. That's right.

Q. Okay. Then you say here that, "in

general, presenting a notification through a user

interface was a well-known functionality that long

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predates the asserted patents." Right?

A. Absolutely.

Q. And so that part of the claim, in

isolation, would not be indefinite, right?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: It's still not specific.

Presenting a notification through the user interface

has quite a breadth of meaning.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. So are you saying

that if something is broad, then that makes it

indefinite?

A. I think we're back to that again. I'm

just saying that here this doesn't nail this down.

It still seems indefinite to me.

Q. What do you mean "nail it down"?

So it has to be specific, it can't be

broad, you know, and include different types of

notification; it has to be a specific type for it to

be definite?

A. Oh, no, I don't mean that. I'm just

saying that what we have here presenting a

notification through the user interface is still

indefinite, especially based on the context of the

rest of this claim what's in the description for

sure.

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Q. What -- what about what you just read,

"presenting a notification through the user

interface," is indefinite?

A. Well, it doesn't really -- it just says

"configured to assist in presenting." That really

doesn't tell me very much at all. We don't know what

"assist" means, for one thing. It's just not

specific. It's indefinite.

Q. Okay. So let's focus on the language

"configured to assist in presenting a notification

through the user interface, the notification based on

the message content."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. So what about this is

indefinite and why, if anything?

A. Well, all of it is indefinite to me. It

really doesn't teach me anything. It doesn't specify

anything. It is still indefinite, and like I say

here in my report, it is just not clear how a person

of skill would have determined whether a particular

component assists in that presentation. It is not

clear.

Q. Okay. So I see what you have in your

declaration, and so is that your only reason for that

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why that language is indefinite?

A. I would say that summarizes it. That's,

you know, me presenting my opinion, and this is how I

summarized it here.

Q. Well, to the extent you have some other

opinion, I don't see it in this paragraph or in your

report, right?

A. No, that is my summary of my opinion

about that issue.

Q. So why do you say the term "assist" that

you put in quotes is indefinite or "assists in"?

A. Because it is indefinite. It just says

"configured to assist," that really doesn't tell me

anything.

Q. Can a person of skill determine whether

or not something is assisting in a process or not?

A. They could. Here, I don't feel like

that's what we see.

Q. But a person of skill could determine

whether something assists in a process of a computer

system or a device?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: That's a big hypothetical.

It is possible. We just -- that's not the case here.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And what makes this case

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unique that --

A. The body of the patent and the claims.

Q. Okay. You understand the phrase

"presenting a notification through the user

interface," correct?

A. Roughly, yes.

Q. And you would be able to follow that

through the components of the system in source code,

for example?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I think I could follow it

through source code. I don't know if there is any

specific place in the patent that walks me through

that. Off the top of my head, I don't recall that.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. So then if you were

looking at some other component or some component of

the system or computer, is it your testimony that

you're unable to determine if the component assists

in that process that you can follow by source code

and that you would have no idea?

A. That might have been a compound question.

I don't know if you could break it down for me.

Q. So I'm trying to understand why you find

it difficult to determine whether or not a component

assists in a process.

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And my question to you is: If we're

following this process of presenting a notification

through the source code, for example, why would a

person of skill not be able to to determine whether a

component assists in that process?

A. I think a person of skill, if they had

all the source code, could do that, has a higher

chance of being able to figure that out based on this

language in the claim and in the patent.

Q. Let's go to the next term. Could I turn

your attention to paragraph 44.

A. Yeah, I'm with you.

Q. Okay. Your entire opinion for

indefiniteness for claim one of the '117 Patent and

the term "device messaging agents" is in paragraph

44, right?

A. Other than the fact that I say "As

discussed above with respect to claims 1 and 30,"

where we have been discussing "device agent," so it

would be added to those.

Q. Okay. And so you referred to your

opinion for "device agent" for claims 1 and 30 of the

'733 Patent, right?

A. Exactly.

Q. Okay. And you say using the same term

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for a similar reason, a POSITA would not be

reasonably certain what constitutes a device

messaging agent?

A. That's exactly right.

Q. The same question I asked you before.

If the term "device agents" in claims 1

and 30 of the '733 Patent were not found to be

indefinite, would you have an opinion that the term

"device messaging agents" is indefinite?

A. I think "device messaging agent" is a

whole other term. So if "device agent" is determined

to not be indefinite, I think I would still have to

look at anything related to "device messaging agent."

Q. Okay. Do you have separate or

independent reasons in your declaration?

A. Just what I have in my declaration here

and then referring to the other paragraphs related to

device agent. Just like I say here, you know, the

addition of the word "messaging" does not render its

meaning any more ascertainable than "device agent."

Q. Okay. So for the specific term "device

messaging agent," you only have these two sentences

here, right, beginning with "the specification does

not use such a term," and then the next sentence, "a

device messaging agent is not a known term in the

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art."

Do you see that?

A. Yeah. And the claim language does not

help define the boundaries because it only teaches

that a device messaging agent is executable on an

end-user device and receives or forwards messages

from the Internet.

Q. Right.

A. And then, of course, referring to my

above discussion about device agent and claims 1 and

30, so that other part of my report as well.

Q. Okay. But specifically for the '733

Patent and for this term "device messaging agent,"

your opinion specific to that is these two sentences,

right, at the end of paragraph 44?

A. I would say it is the whole paragraph.

And then, of course, this paragraph says I'm also

referring to the above paragraphs before that related

to device agents.

Q. Right. But again, my question was

specifically about the '733 Patent -- I'm sorry,

specifically -- let me strike that.

Specifically for the '117 Patent in

claim 1 and the term "device messaging agent,"

specific to that patent and that term, your opinions

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specific to that are in these two sentences?

A. I would say the whole paragraph; and then

again, because the whole paragraph says I'm also

referring to things about claims 1 and 30 of the '733

patent in my discussion above that, I think they are

all part of the same discussion.

Q. Right. You also say here "a device

messaging agent is not a known term in the art."

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And is that similar to your opinion that

"device agent" is not a known term in the art?

A. Yes.

Q. So it's basically the same opinion?

A. It has elements of the same opinion, yes,

and it is based on my same skills and experience.

Q. Okay. What elements are different in

this opinion?

A. Well, we have an extra word. We don't

have "device agent" now, we have "device messaging

agent," but clearly the discussion of "device agent"

applies here as well, as I have said here.

Q. And then we talked before about how

"device" could be seen as a modifier of the word

"agent." Do you recall that?

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A. We did, yes.

Q. Do you agree that the same is here, that

"device messaging" is modifying the word "agent"?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, "device" could be

modifying the word "agent" here, and then "messaging"

could be modifying the word "agent" here, and then

"device messaging" could be modifying the word

"agent" here.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Do you agree that "device

messaging agent" is narrower than "agent"?

A. It could be.

Q. Here, I don't see you expressing the

opinion that "device messaging agent" could mean the

same thing as "agent." Do you see that in this

paragraph.

A. No, I do not.

Q. Do you agree that "device messaging

agent" is narrower than "device agent"?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: It could be, but I think

they both have such a lack of reasonable certainty

from a person of skill that it's hard to have a

degree of certainty because they're both just --

there's no reasonable certainty for those.

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Q. (BY MR. WANG) We talked before about the

word "agent" by itself. We also talked about the

word "device" by itself. Do you recall that?

A. Yeah.

Q. And would that same discussion apply to

this term?

A. I think so, yes.

Q. Let's talk about the word "messaging" by

itself. Would that have a plain and ordinary meaning

in the field of the asserted patents?

A. I think that would really depend on the

context. That's, you know, a pretty generic word.

So I think you would have to have some context for

that. "Messaging" might mean any number of things to

a person of skill, even in the field of these

patents.

Q. But it has a specific meaning, right?

A. No, not really. I think it would depend

on the context.

Q. So if I asked you if something was a

message or not, you would not be able to determine

that?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I think on a case-by-case

basis, sometimes I could; sometimes I couldn't. It

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depends on how it's used in the context of what

you're describing. Like, if I have a specification

or something like that, it might mean something very

specific, but other times it might be something so

broad that it could mean almost anything.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. Can you give me an

example in the art or in the field of the patents

where you would not be sure about something being a

message or not?

A. That a big question.

Q. Well, it's actually very specific.

I'm saying: Can you give me any example

where you would not be able to determine if it's a

message or not?

A. Not off the top of my head, no. I've

just read too many things in my career to think of an

example. "Messaging" is just used in many ways in

many contexts.

Q. Can you think of an example where someone

used that word "message" and you didn't know what it

meant or you didn't know what it was referring to?

A. Nothing comes to mind here sitting here,

no.

Q. In paragraph -- paragraph 44, you don't

include any citations to the specification of the

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'117 Patent, right?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Do you have the opinion that the word

"messaging" by itself makes the term indefinite?

A. I'm not sure I get the question. Like,

if I didn't have that word in there, would it still

be indefinite?

Q. Oh. I guess what I mean is here in

paragraph 44, you say that the addition of the word

"messaging" does not render its meaning any more

ascertainable than a "device agent."

Do you see that?

A. Yeah. And that's my opinion.

Q. That's your opinion, okay, but do you

have the opinion that the word "messaging" renders

the meaning less ascertainable or more indefinite?

A. I don't know if I have a degree of

indefinite scale. It is just not something that,

again, a person of skill with reasonable certainty

would understand the scope of limitation in the

claim.

Q. Okay. But your opinion is what you have

here, which is literally does not render its meaning

any more ascertainable?

A. That's right.

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Q. Okay. And in paragraph 44, you don't

cite to the prosecution history, right?

A. Oh, no, I don't.

Q. Okay. Do you recall citing to the

prosecution history anywhere in your declaration?

A. Not specifically. I could see that I

refer to it in the description for the legal standard

for "claim construction," and as I mentioned, I did

look at the file histories for all three patents.

Q. Right. You did list it in your

"Materials Considered," but I don't believe that you

cite to it elsewhere in your declaration, and you

don't recall doing that, do you?

A. I don't think I have that specifically in

the declaration. I certainly reviewed it, and that's

part of what I considered in giving my opinions here.

Q. Do you remember anything from the

prosecution history, sitting here, anything that

would be relevant or inform your opinions?

A. Nothing comes to mind sitting here right

now, no.

Q. Okay. You say that the phrase -- or the

term "device messaging agent" is not in the

specification; is that correct?

A. I think that's right.

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Q. In paragraph 44, you say that the

specification does not use such a term?

A. That's right.

Q. Do you know if this specification uses

the term "agent messages" or "agent message"?

A. Oh, not off the top of my head, no.

Q. Okay. Did you consider that question?

A. I don't recall considering that, no.

Q. And you don't recall considering the

portions of the specification that discuss that if it

uses the term "agent message" or "agent messages"?

A. I don't recall doing that either way.

What I was trying to do here is try to give an

opinion on "device messaging agent," which is in the

claim, so that's what I looked for and that's what

I'm discussing in this section.

Q. Okay. Do you have the opinion that

"agent message" or "agent messages" is referring to

something different?

A. Without looking at that, I just can't

say.

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I certainly don't have the

memory of, you know, a 200-page patent in my head.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Can you look back at

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Figure 16 of the patent. You could turn to it in

your declaration, because I think it is shown a

couple of times.

A. Yeah, I have got it on page 15, for one,

of my declaration.

Q. Okay. We may have covered this before

but I wanted to ask you again.

So do you see the item numeral 1691

Service Control Device Link?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not this

Service Control Device Link can be assumed to be

equivalent to an agent for communication purposes?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: If you'll ask me that again

now that I have looked at it.

(Reporter drops off)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the

record. The time is 2:26 p.m.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Welcome back,

Dr. Turnbull.

A. Hi there.

Q. Nice lunch?

A. I guess so. How about you?

Q. Very good, but quick.

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Did you discuss anything with your

attorney during the break?

A. No.

Q. Did you have any discussions with him --

A. No.

Q. -- once on --

Okay. So we had technical difficulties

before where I think a portion of your response was

cut off, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to go

back to that question I asked before our lunch break,

and we were talking about Figure 16 of the '116

Patent -- '117 Patent. And if you want to look at it

in your report, it is on page 15 of your report.

A. Okay.

Q. And my question is in Figure 16 of the

'117 Patent, do you see this item that's noted as

Item 1691 called the Service Control Device Link?

Do you see that?

A. I see Service Control Device Link 1691,

yes.

Q. And this Service Control Device Link in

the '117 Patent can be assumed to be equivalent to an

agent for communication purposes?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I would

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think if that I wanted it to be considered an agent

that I would have called it an agent, like several

other things in this figure.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) So do you -- do your claim

construction opinions assume that Service Control

Device Link is not an agent or equivalent to an

agent?

A. I don't think I say either way

specifically regarding that in my report, and I would

say what I just said, it is not listed as an agent in

the description in 1691, so I just can't know since

they stated other things as an agent; and I don't

recall anything in the file history where they, you

know, modified a figure or corrected something

because they didn't do it right in a figure, say this

figure. I don't remember anything about that.

Q. You said you don't recall anything in the

file history. Do you recall anything in the

specification?

A. No, only what's in my declaration here.

Q. Okay. And then at the end of paragraph

44 you say that "the claim language does not help

define its boundaries because it only teaches that a

device messaging agent is executable on an end-user

device and receives/forwards message from the

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Internet."

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And that's not the claim language, right,

that is a paraphrase of the claim language?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Do you agree that, in general, claim

language can help define the boundaries of a term?

A. I would hope so, yes.

Q. And here in the '117 Patent, there is

claim language regarding "device messaging agents,"

correct?

A. A "device messaging agent," yes.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you about the next

term, which is on B. It begins with "at least one of

the devices having a network stack."

Do you see that above paragraph 46 of

your declaration?

A. I do see that. I'm with you.

Q. Okay. Let me first ask you about the

first part of it.

"At least one of the devices having a

network stack in communication with the device

messaging agent," do you see that?

A. Yes.

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Q. Okay. So the language "at least one of

the devices having a network stack in communication

with," do you find anything indefinite about that

language?

A. I would say what comes to mind is what I

had right after that in my declaration in the context

of computer network. Network stack, as we're

discussing, refers to these logical layers that

describe how different network functionality is

conceptually organized. As such, it is unclear how

any pair of networking devices or networked device

would not have a network stack. The patent itself

describes a network stack as a standard feature.

Q. All right. So -- so you think that any

pair of networking devices would have a network

stack?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you -- you would, as the

person skilled, know what the network stack is?

A. Yes. And I will say they would have a

network stack unless otherwise specified.

Q. Okay. And what -- what network stack

would they have by default or unless otherwise

specified?

A. Well, I think it would depend on the

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context of what's being described, but I think this

is a fairly standard -- I think the OSI network stack

layers, which I guess application is the top level,

and I think there's six other levels, I'm just trying

to remember off the top of my head, and I think

that's what this may be referring to.

Q. Okay. Can you roughly describe what --

what that "network stack" is?

You said the application layer's at the

top, and you may not remember all of the layers, but

can you describe what -- what you remember as an

expert?

A. Sure. Just off the top of my head, the

network stack, to me, is a series of technologies and

protocols that I guess in the Internet world, which I

guess is what we're mostly dealing with in the last

40 years or so, the combination of well-known,

well-documented, primarily useable by most people set

of these technologies and protocols that provide,

coordinate, acknowledge, and enable the transfer of

communication between two systems on a network.

Q. Okay. And is there a difference between

what you just said and the networking communications

stack of the device OS?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

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THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you mean

by "device OS."

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Well, you have this as part

of a quote in paragraph 46. In parentheses you say

"Thereby" -- or you quote, "Thereby not requiring any

modification of the device network communication

stack of the device OS."

A. Yeah, I see that. I didn't know if

that's what you were referring to or not.

Q. So it -- is what you were just describing

the same thing as -- as this networking device --

networking communications stack of the device OS?

A. Yeah, generally. I would say it could

extend -- it could be another device or another

system as well, but it's a pretty standard networking

stack.

Q. Okay. And what is an API interface with

the network stack?

A. There could be more than one. API stands

for application programming interface, at least most

of time that's what we mean by it, and it would be

the ways that you could have software source code to

communicate with various levels or layers of the

stack as needed.

Q. And that inter -- that interface API or

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API interface, can that be invoked by the operating

system of the device?

A. It could be in some cases, yes.

Q. And can it be invoked or used by

applications of a device?

A. Possibly. It could be a combination

where an application may request something that the

operating system then coordinates to be used.

Q. Okay. And it can send instructions to

terminate a communication, correct?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I guess that's a

possibility. It might depend on what you mean by

"terminate."

Q. (BY MR. WANG) And it can send

instructions or has the capability of terminating a

secured connection?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Do you mean -- when you

said "it," do you mean an application or the device

OS or them in concert --

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Oh, no, okay. Okay.

Let me -- let me say this: The -- the

API interface can be used to or has the capability to

terminate a connection?

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A. I guess it would depend on the API that

you're using.

Q. The API to the network stack.

A. Again, it would depend on what API you're

using and what part of the network stack you're

talking to.

Q. But it could, right?

A. That's -- yeah, that's a wide range of

possibilities, it could.

Q. The same question for a secure

connection, the API interface to the network stack

can be used to terminate a secure connection?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: It would depend on the API

and even what you mean by "terminate the connection."

I don't know if you mean end it at the end of a -- of

a transmission or, you know, a dataset or stop in the

middle of it or don't allow it. Even that has, you

know, a lot of different meanings with terminate.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. But the examples

that you just gave are possible functionality that

could be carried out by the interface API to the

network stack?

A. I think maybe one part we're not syncing

up is you said "the interface API," and I guess there

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could be more than one, but I certainly would agree

that the possibilities of doing something with

different APIs that could work with a standard

network stack or maybe network stacks generally could

have functionality like that.

Q. Okay. In a device, what -- what

functionality is outside the network stack? Would

that include certain operation of applications?

A. Certainly.

Q. Well, what sort of operations would that

include, just an example, things being displayed to

the user does not necessarily have to do with the

network stack?

A. It could have something to do with the

network stack; it might not. It depends on how your

operating system is and what your application is set

to do.

Q. Well, what about just, for example,

closing an application, does that have anything to do

with the network stack?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: That -- that's pretty

broad. Hypothetically it's possible. In the

different types of applications you might have, it

could.

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Q. (BY MR. WANG) So it could have something

to do with the network stack?

A. Yeah, that's just such a broad range of

possibles to think about the different things you

could do as a programmer and what applications can

do. So it's certainly possible. I don't know if

it's relevant to anything you're asking about related

to the patents or not, but hypothetically it's

possible.

Q. And could -- could it not have to do with

the network stack?

You said it -- it could have something to

do with the network stack. I just want to confirm

that it could have not -- nothing to do with the

network stack?

A. Yeah, I think by me saying "it could have

something," that also implies, kind of logically,

that it could not. The breadth of what you can do

with software, especially in communicating between

two systems over a network, is just about as broad of

a concept as there is in computer science. So

certainly there are possibilities there.

Q. Can an application terminate a connection

outside the network stack?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

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THE WITNESS: Do you mean terminate a

network connection or just any kind of connection?

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Well, first let me ask a

network connection?

A. I guess, again, hypothetically, it's

possible. If you're referring to something in the

patents, I would be happy to look. I'm not really

sure the context of the question.

Q. I'm just asking you in general first, and

so would your answer be -- be the same that -- that

it's possible?

A. Generally, yes. If you ask me in

general, yes.

Q. I want to focus you on the claim language

on -- of the term B, and it's in the heading of

sub -- subsection B above paragraph 46. Could you

take a look at that.

A. Okay. I'm with you.

Q. And my question is that: This language

at the end just says "is terminated within the

network stack." It doesn't say "terminated within a

particular layer of the network stack," correct?

A. I agree, that's not what it says.

Q. Okay. And so it doesn't require that the

connection be terminated within a particular layer?

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A. That's not what it says.

Q. What's your understanding of the term

"the secure connection between the network message

server and the device"?

A. It implies there's some kind of

connection between a server and a device and it has

some level of what is -- I have to assume they think

is secure, as described.

Q. Could you turn to the '117 Patent. That

was Exhibit 6.

A. I have got it open.

Q. Okay. Let's look at the description of

"figures" for a second. I believe it was at column

three of the patent.

A. Okay. I will scroll there.

Q. Okay. Do you see on the description --

A. I am not there yet. If you'll give me --

Q. Sure.

A. It is not updating very well because it

is such a big document. Okay. I'm on column three.

Q. Okay. I want to call your attention to

the description of Figures 24 and 25. So it says

that 24 is "a functional diagram illustrating the

Service Control Device Link of the service processer

and the Service Control Service Link of the service

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controller in accordance with some embodiments."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And then for Figure 25 it says that

"Figure 25 is a functional diagram illustrating a

framing structure of a Service Processor

Communication Frame and a Service Controller

Communication Frame in accordance with some

embodiments."

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. I don't recall Figures 24 and 25 being

discussed in -- in your declaration. Do you remember

if they -- if they were?

A. I do not discuss those.

Q. Okay. Do you recall reviewing them or

considering them?

A. I'm sure I looked at them, but beyond

that, I don't have much recollection. I think there

are so many figures, I certainly don't have a memory

of each one.

Q. Okay. Let's look at Figure 24.

A. Okay.

Q. And if you want, you could rotate the PDF

or I could --

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A. I already have -- no, I already have.

Q. Let me do this again.

A. Okay.

Q. So in Figure 24, I just want to ask, does

this appear to show a secure connection?

A. Just looking at the figure, I don't see

the word "secure" in there.

Q. What about the word "encrypt"?

A. I do see "encrypt" in describing Box 2408

and in Box 2428 in Figure 24.

Q. And does that inform whether or not this

could be a secured connection?

A. It does not, not just out of context like

that. I would have to --

Q. Okay.

A. -- read what it says, whether it

describes the figure and then understand the breadth

of what they mean by "encrypt." Does that mean

encrypt part of it? I -- this just doesn't give me

enough information.

Q. All right. So what -- what's your

understanding of a secured connection?

Would -- would you agree that an

encrypted message or a connection where messages are

encrypted would be a secured connection?

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A. It would depend.

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) What would it depend on?

A. The system. Probably the protocols as

well.

Q. Okay. And I think we covered this

before, but you don't have any opinions about this

figure?

A. I haven't offered anything in my report,

no.

Q. Okay. Do you see the boxes -- the box

that says "Transport Services Stack"?

A. I think it's Box 2410?

Q. Uh-huh. And 2420 as well.

A. Oh. I guess I don't see that one. Oh, I

see, yes, 2420 as well.

Q. Do you have any understanding of what

that is based on looking at the figure?

A. No, not based on just looking at the

figure. I would have to see what's described in the

patent.

Q. Let's look at the next figure, and you

may have to rotate it if you haven't already.

Figure 25.

A. Okay. I have got it open here.

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Q. Okay. Do you see that this has Service

Processor Communication Frame 2502 and Service

Controller Communication Frame 2522?

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And do you have any understanding of

what -- what this is based on looking at the figure?

A. No, I don't. Especially in contrast to

what seems to be the same type of figure, at least

that's what the patent claims, and they really don't

seem to use the same type of diagramming conventions.

They really don't match up. It says that they're

both functional diagrams. I guess they describe

entirely different types of functions, because the

diagrams are very different.

Q. Okay. Does claim -- Figure 25 show like

the messages that are sent in Figure 24?

A. I don't know how they're related.

Q. Okay. Do you see in Figure 25 it talks

about several agents and then it has, for example,

2510, it says "Agent Function Number One Message

Length and Agent Function Number One Message, ...,

Agent Function Number N Message Length, Agent

Function Number N message"?

A. I think I see that there, yes.

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Q. And that's repeated on the bottom, too,

right?

A. It looks like it's the same thing, yes.

Q. And so these seem to describe agents

relating to messages, right?

A. I just don't know that looking at this.

Q. But there are boxes that has the word

"agent" and then it has the word "message" in several

of those boxes at the top and bottom of the figure?

A. Sure, that's -- that's the text that's

there. Sometimes both words are in a box.

Q. Okay. And you don't discuss or consider

Figure 25 in offering your claim construction

opinions, right?

A. No, no --

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: -- not in my declaration.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) What about the written

description regarding Figures 24 and 25, do you

recall discussing or considering that in your

declaration?

A. If they're --

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: If they're in the patent, I

probably considered them, but certainly I don't have

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a memory of reading that in, you know, a nearly

200-page patent.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Do you agree that a secured

connection in the context of the patent can be

terminated within the network stack?

A. I think that's what the patent is

claiming it can do, yes.

Q. Okay. Do you agree that in the abstract,

a secured connection can be terminated within a

network stack?

A. Hypothetically in the possibilities of

what you could do with software, I guess you could.

You would probably have to define what those terms

mean in a new context to ask me that.

Q. But just based on those words, you think

it could -- it could happen?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I guess hypothetically,

something could work that way, yes.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Let's go to the next term.

this is the '192 Patent and this is the first term

"software components" --

A. Yes.

Q. -- and your opinion starts in paragraph

49.

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A. I'm with you.

Q. Okay. Okay. So you say in -- in

paragraph 49 that the -- the term "software

components" would be understood to refer to some

component of software, correct?

A. Simply put, yes.

Q. Hence, I want to be clear.

Your opinion is specifically about this

term, right, "software components," like these two

words?

A. That's right. Just like I say here, it's

exceptionally generic.

Q. Okay. But you don't consider like the

stronger -- the longer claim limitation where -- you

know, this is the claim term that you're -- you're

looking at?

A. That's right, that's why I have it here

broken out like this.

Q. Okay. And then in paragraph 49 you say,

"Specifically, it is unclear whether software

comments encompass device link agents or whether

software components and device agents must be

different things." Right?

A. That's right.

Q. Okay. And is that the multiple meanings

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or interpretations that you've identified for this

term?

A. That would at least be one example, yes.

Q. Okay. Do you have any other examples?

A. I think right here I'm only referring to

this one example.

Q. All right. Do you have any others in

your declaration?

A. Whatever the rest of the three or four

paragraphs here discuss.

Q. Okay. Can you identify any examples of

"multiple meaning" in the rest of those paragraphs?

A. Yeah, really, the body of -- of paragraph

50, 51, and 52 speak to that.

Q. So, yeah, you are talking about device

agents, but I -- I just want to -- and we have got

that already.

I just want to know if there's any other

issue that you're raising about multiple meanings or

interpretations?

A. Just what's in this section.

Q. And is this argument about device agents,

about whether software components encompass device

agents or whether software components and device

agents must be different things, is there anything

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else? And can you identify that for me?

A. Just what I have in these paragraphs.

Q. Can you identify anything else in these

paragraphs?

A. I can read the paragraphs. I'm not sure

I really understand the question, because I feel like

I have already answered it. So either I don't

understand it or you don't like the answer, I'm not

sure which.

Q. And is your opinion that the claim

describes software components as including device

link agents or different from or both?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I'm trying to

understand the difference or to understand if that's

what they mean as one and the same.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Are you still looking,

Dr. Turnbull?

A. Oh, no. I didn't know there was a

pending question.

Q. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that you were

taking a minute to look at the -- okay. So let --

let me try to -- try to ask it a different way.

Let's go back to paragraph 49, okay?

A. Okay.

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Q. So your last sentence there you said,

"It's unclear whether software components encompass

device agents or whether software components and

device agents must be different things."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. If something -- if A encompasses B

or A is broader than B, that could be true as well as

A and B being different things, right?

A. If one encompasses the other, I would

think there was some commonality. They wouldn't be

different things, unless you have better vocabulary

than "things" to describe both of them.

Q. Oh, so by "different," do you mean, like,

mutually exclusive?

A. I think so. I think you're the one that

used the word "different," so I was just replying to

that.

Q. Okay. Well, you're the one who used the

word "different" --

A. Okay.

Q. -- in paragraph 49.

So what do you mean by "different," must

be different things?

A. Not the same.

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Q. I mean, two things can be different, if

they're different concepts, if they have different

scope; but here by "different," do you mean not, you

know, including the same thing, not -- I guess the

word I use is "mutually exclusive."

Do you mean that?

A. No, I think I mean different. I think

they're not the same. I wasn't trying to be tricky

when I wrote this.

Q. Okay. So in your mind, there is

something inconsistent to say that A encompasses B

and A and B being different things or --

A. Broadly, yes; but more specifically, not

only in my mind, but also in the patent in this case,

you just can't tell if these are different things or

not.

Q. Okay. Let's look at paragraph 50. You

say that "when one suggests that software components

and device link agents are different."

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. So -- and this is talking about some

software components being authorized to receive and

process data from secure link messages received via a

device link agent on that device, right?

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A. It's just the software components in

claim 1. I don't know if "some" is a keyword in

there or not, but that's what I'm discussing.

Q. And then in paragraph 51 you say "one

passage from this specification distinguishes

software components from agents."

Do you -- do you see that?

A. I do. And that's exactly right.

Q. Okay. And -- and the basis for that is

the parenthetical language in -- in the quote or

where?

A. That's right.

Q. All right. And so all of this

parenthetical says is "e.g., software component

applications and/or agents."

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. So you don't have any opinions

about disclaimer either in your declaration or about

this part of the specification, do you?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you mean.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) That the patentee's

disclaiming some meaning or definition of "software

components."

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A. Again, that sounds a little legal, but --

a little bit of a legal term, but I'm just saying

here's what the patent says and here's where they

start to contrast them. So that's distinguishing

them, as far as I'm concerned.

Q. Okay. And -- but all the parenthetical

says is, "For example, software components,

applications and/or agents." Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. But do you read this to mean that

agents can't be software?

A. It is what it is. It's -- they're saying

"software components, applications and/or agents;"

and to me, when you break it out like that, you're

distinguishing them. Otherwise, you wouldn't break

it out like that. I mean, language matters, right?

Q. Okay. Well, you agree that applications

are software, right?

A. I think "in the patent application" seems

to be software, yes.

Q. All right. And then on page 19 at the

very end of paragraph 51, can I have you look at this

quote from the stack that you have?

A. Okay.

Q. And just at the very end of the quote,

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you just have -- or you quote to "other device-phased

functions/software components/agents," right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And are -- well, what are you

reading into that phrase, if anything?

A. I'm reading in that they're

distinguishing from -- device-based functions from

software component and from agents. So there's a

distinction there that that's implied, at least

that's my understanding of it.

Q. Okay. And then in paragraph 52 you say,

"Other passages indicate that device agents are

software components."

Do you see that?

A. That's right. Inconsistent again.

Q. Okay. But do they define "device agents"

as "software components" or say that it can be

implemented in software?

A. I certainly don't recall those phrases,

but what I'm discussing here, as I say, for example,

"the specification states that agents can be

implemented largely or entirely in software or with a

mixture of software and hardware or primarily with

hardware," so it's just all over the map there.

Q. And in -- and what you quote here, it

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doesn't use the phrase "software components"?

A. No. We're referring to that other

passages however indicate that device agents are

software components because they mention largely or

entirely in software, for example.

Q. Okay. But it doesn't use the -- the

phrase "software components"?

A. No. It's not --

Q. Let me put it this way: In paragraph 52

you talk about software components because it's not

within quotes, and then the material you have in

questions doesn't say "software components."

A. No, that's not what's in quotes. But I'm

talking about software with a mixture of software and

hardware and then, of course, oddly enough, primarily

with hardware.

THE COURT REPORTER: Hey, Mr. Wang, can

we go off the record real quick?

MR. WANG: Yes.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off

record. The time is 3:11 p.m.

(Recess taken)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the

record. The time is 3:18 p.m.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Welcome back, Dr. Turnbull.

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Let's go to the last term on page 20 of your

declaration, Subsection C, and it's for the '196

Patent, claim 13 to the term "wherein one of the

message delivery triggers is the receipt of a

particular network element message from one of the

network elements."

Do you see that?

A. That's right. For the '192 Patent.

Q. Did I read the term correctly?

A. I think so. You might have said the

"'196 Patent," so I was correcting to '192.

Q. Yes, thank you for clarifying, the '192

patent.

And your opinions for indefiniteness for

this term are in paragraphs 56 and 57, right?

A. That's right.

Q. And then so in paragraph 56 you say that

"the claims provide no clarity as to what qualifies

as a 'particular network element message'."

Do you see that?

A. That's right. And it just doesn't.

Q. Okay. And so is that your -- your issue

with the claim term, that you don't know what

"particular" means?

A. I would say that's the biggest part of

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it, yes.

Q. Do you agree that "particular" has a

meaning in ordinary English?

A. Yes.

Q. And would that definition be, for

example, being unit or one element among others?

A. I don't know if that's plain and

ordinary. That sounds like a dictionary definition.

MR. BRIGHT: Objection: Form.

THE WITNESS: Maybe something from set

theory.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Okay. What would your

definition of "particular" be in normal English, if

you have one?

A. I don't know. That's a good question.

Maybe something that's distinguished in comparison to

something else. It's -- you know, "particular" is a

pretty good word. I think we all have an idea of

what it means, certainly in context.

Yeah, I think that's fine just to use it

that way, especially since, you know, that's how it's

referred to. "Particular network element message," I

think that gives me some context that it's not any

network element message, it's a particular type of

one or a particular one.

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Q. Okay. And the -- all right. And so --

Okay. The word "particular" can be an

adjective or a noun, correct?

A. Yeah, it could be.

Q. And so in the claim, do you agree that

they use it as an adjective?

A. I think so. I think so.

Q. And so the definition I proposed in

English for "particular" was "being one unit or

elements among others," and I believe that you said

that sounded reasonable as a dictionary definition;

is that correct?

A. I think I said that sounded more like a

dictionary definition; and -- but now that I hear it,

I don't think it has to be one, it could just be

something that's distinguishing it from something

else. So there could be, you know, two sets of

things, and by say something is particular, it fits

in that -- that one set.

Q. Okay. So I think I said "being one unit

or element among others."

A. Okay.

Q. Do you think that the patent is using

"particular" in a specialized way different from

common in English?

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A. I think when you're talking to a

programmer and you're trying to give them

instructions on how to build software, of course you

have to be exact, you can't be as vague as saying

"particular." You need to give that some definition.

Again, what do they mean by that, what

are the virtues of that? And that's just simply not

done here.

Q. Okay. So I'm not talking about how to

implement it. I'm just focusing on the language or

really the word.

Do you think that the patent is using the

word "particular" in a specialized way, different

from how the -- what the word means in common

English?

A. I think it's common English, but the fact

that it's in the context of this -- and my

understanding of all of this is I'm trying to

describe how software works. That's what this

patent's about, and you can use common English, but

it's in the context of a particular network element

message; and there's just nothing that gives me an

idea what that really means. And then, of course,

we're talking about it within the context of the

message delivery triggers as well, and I think I say

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that somewhere here.

Q. I realize that we skipped a term, so

let's go back to another term and we will come back

to this term.

So could you turn to paragraph 54 of your

report --

A. Sure, I'm with you.

Q. -- or declaration, as we have been

discussing.

And so this is for claim 11 of the '192

Patent. This term that begins "wherein," do -- do

you see that?

A. I'm with you, yes.

Q. Okay. And your opinion for

indefiniteness is all in paragraph 54 of your report,

right?

A. That's right.

Q. And really your opinion is stated in one

sentence, right, the last sentence of that paragraph

beginning with "not only"?

A. Sure, that -- that certainly summarizes

it.

Q. Okay. Because the sentences before just

seem to be talking about the claim, but your opinion

is in that sentence in paragraph 54?

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A. That's right. I'm trying to make sense

of it, and then that second sentence is my opinion.

Q. Okay. Okay. So then there's kind of two

parts of the -- the claim or two phrases I want to

ask you about.

It says "the receipt of a transmission on

the respective secure message link."

Do you see that phrase?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Let me start from the beginning.

"Wherein one of the message delivery

triggers is" and then "the receipt of a transmission

on the respective secure message link," do you see

that phrase?

A. I do see that.

Q. Okay. And then -- and then at the end of

the term it says "or a response-generated

transmission received from that device link agent."

Do you see that?

A. That's right.

Q. And is that what you were referring to

at -- in your sentence in paragraph 54 where it says

"It's unclear how a response generated to a

transmission would be effectively different from the

transmission itself"?

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A. That's exactly right.

Q. Okay. What do you mean by "effectively

different"?

A. I guess exactly that, I don't understand

what the -- the differences are there, would it have

a different effect whether I'm just getting the

response or the transmission itself.

Q. Do you agree that those are different

things, like the transmission itself and a response,

that they're different?

A. They should be. We just don't have any

clarity here.

Q. All right. Do you agree that it's

possible to get the transmission itself open but not

a response?

A. I'm not sure. It would depend on the

software. It sounds like this is a response

generated to a receipt transmission. So the system

would know it got a transmission. It's hard to pull

those apart with the claim language we have here.

Q. But it doesn't necessarily have to

generate a response, right?

A system could receive a transmission and

either a response is not generated or the generated

response is not received, right?

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A. Just any system or --

MR. BRIGHT: Objection.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) Yeah, yeah --

A. -- in here?

Q. I'm talking about any system.

A. I guess hypothetically any system, it's

possible.

Q. All right. And likewise, a system could

not receive the transmission itself but only receive

a response generated to the transmission. Do you

agree with that?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that one makes

sense, especially in the context of the patent.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) What -- why would that not

make sense?

A. I don't know how you could have a

response if you didn't receive something to respond

to or to acknowledge that, either that or I

misunderstood the wording of your question.

Q. But what the system could be looking for

is a response generated to a transmission, right,

that's what a system could be looking for or be

implemented to look for?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

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THE WITNESS: I guess some hypothetical

system, that's possible. I just don't understand the

context of how that relates to this.

That's one of the reasons you need to be

specific when you're describing the functionality in

a patent is because there are these large areas of

hypothetical system designs. So it seems like the

burden is on the inventor, the person filing the

patent to be specific, and they're not here.

Q. (BY MR. WANG) So for claim 11, the

beginning part of the claim talks about "Wherein one

of message delivery triggers." Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. And that's not a term that you proposed

for construction, right, "message delivery triggers"?

A. No.

Q. And you don't contend that that phrase

alone is indefinite, do you?

A. No, I'm not saying that in this

declaration.

Q. Let's go back to the last term C on claim

13, and if you could look at the claim term beginning

"wherein." Do you see that?

A. Oh, yeah, right at the top of the page.

Q. Yeah.

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A. -- right above paragraph 56.

Q. All right. If -- if a system defined or

took some action based on a certain message from a

network element, would that make it a particular

network element message?

A. Just any system, not what the patent

describes?

Q. Sure, sure.

A. I guess it would depend.

Q. What would it depend on?

A. How the system is built.

Q. So if a system is designed to look for a

certain message or a property of a message, would --

would that make it a particular message?

MR. BRIGHT: Objection to form.

THE WITNESS: Possibly.

MR. WANG: That's all I have. So with

that, I will pass the witness.

Thank you, Dr. Turnbull.

MR. BRIGHT: I need a few minutes to look

at my notes. Can we take a five to ten-minute break.

It may not even be a full ten minutes. I will turn

my video back on.

MR. WANG: Sure.

THE WITNESS: Okay. All right. See ya.

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record.

The time is 3:34 p.m.

(Recess taken)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the

record. The time is 3:42 p.m.

MR. BRIGHT: Okay. This is Jonathan

Bright with Fish & Richardson. I have no further

questions. Thank you.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And anything else

before we close out, Counsel?

MR. BRIGHT: Nothing here.

MR. WANG: No.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. This marks

the end of the description of Dr. John Turnbull. We

are going off the record. The time is 3:42 p.m.

Central.

(Proceedings concluded at 3:43 p.m.)

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CHANGES AND SIGNATURE

PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

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I declare under penalty of perjury that the

foregoing is true and correct.

_____________________________

DR. DON R. TURNBULL, JR.

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME, the

undersigned authority, by the witness, DR. DON R.

TURNBULL, JR., on this the _____ day of

______________________, 2024.

_______________________________

NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR

THE STATE OF ________________

My Commission Expires: __________

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STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF HARRIS

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

EXPERT ZOOM ORAL VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

DR. DON R. TURNBULL, JR.

May 28, 2024

I, Michelle Hartman, the undersigned

Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of

Texas and Registered Professional Reporter, certify

that the facts stated in the foregoing pages are true

and correct.

I further certify that I am neither

attorney or counsel for, related to, nor employed by

any parties to the action in which this testimony is

taken and, further, that I am not a relative or

employee of any counsel employed by the parties

hereto or financially interested in the action.

That the deposition transcript was duly

submitted to the witness or to the attorney for the

witness for examination and signature.

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SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO under my hand and

seal of office on this 30th day of May, 2024.

___________________________________________

Michelle Hartman, CSR, RPR

Texas CSR 7093

Expiration: 12/31/25

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A

a1

4:3, 63:25

abernathy

2:24

able

59:2, 88:7,

89:4, 89:8,

94:21, 95:13

about

8:24, 13:2,

14:18, 15:10,

16:3, 22:20,

23:25, 24:4,

26:3, 30:18,

31:12, 32:5,

32:23, 33:23,

35:15, 37:1,

37:7, 37:8,

38:15, 38:18,

39:20, 39:21,

41:23, 43:22,

46:5, 47:9,

50:17, 53:6,

58:2, 58:21,

58:25, 59:4,

61:8, 61:15,

63:1, 66:3,

68:11, 70:8,

70:18, 71:1,

72:9, 72:11,

72:13, 73:7,

76:11, 81:19,

82:16, 83:6,

83:11, 83:14,

83:18, 84:20,

86:1, 86:15,

87:9, 91:10,

91:21, 92:4,

92:23, 94:1,

94:2, 94:8,

95:8, 99:24,

100:11, 101:16,

102:14, 102:20,

103:3, 108:18,

109:4, 109:7,

109:20, 113:8,

114:7, 115:20,

116:18, 118:8,

119:15, 119:19,

119:22, 119:23,

122:22, 123:19,

126:10, 126:14,

130:9, 130:20,

130:24, 131:24,

132:5, 134:5,

135:11

above

39:16, 42:24,

43:3, 43:13,

44:1, 45:7,

69:5, 89:18,

91:10, 91:18,

92:5, 102:17,

110:16, 136:1

above-styled

1:23

absolutely

85:2

abstract

65:9, 66:1,

117:8

access

65:15, 66:12,

67:3, 70:14,

77:15, 81:13

accessed

67:3

accordance

81:15, 81:24,

112:1, 112:8

accurately

21:24

accused

24:2, 25:6

acknowledge

104:20, 134:19

acknowledged

78:2

across

40:8

action

65:19, 136:3,

140:18, 140:21

activities

66:24

activity

65:16, 65:17,

66:14, 67:4,

67:5, 69:7

actually

95:11

add

13:8, 27:19,

60:19

added

89:20

adding

59:17, 60:19,

70:21, 71:1,

72:2

addition

35:10, 57:17,

90:19, 96:9

additional

12:13, 13:7,

13:14, 84:5

adjective

129:3, 129:6

adopts

41:17, 42:6,

72:14, 73:10

affect

65:24

affects

59:17, 70:22

after

103:6

afternoon

10:6, 10:7

again

17:25, 21:10,

30:21, 32:21,

32:23, 34:11,

37:22, 42:17,

44:19, 47:8,

58:1, 68:13,

69:8, 84:9,

85:12, 91:20,

92:3, 96:19,

99:7, 99:15,

107:4, 110:5,

113:2, 124:1,

125:15, 130:6

agents

39:16, 40:2,

41:8, 43:13,

51:11, 51:23,

51:24, 57:17,

58:17, 65:13,

66:10, 66:23,

77:23, 77:25,

78:3, 79:12,

79:15, 80:8,

80:11, 83:14,

83:20, 84:21,

89:15, 90:6,

90:9, 91:19,

102:11, 115:20,

116:4, 118:21,

118:22, 119:16,

119:22, 119:24,

119:25, 120:12,

121:3, 121:4,

122:19, 123:6,

123:15, 124:8,

124:11, 124:13,

125:2, 125:8,

125:12, 125:16,

125:21, 126:3

ago

57:1, 84:20

agree

36:12, 37:9,

37:21, 38:12,

39:6, 49:3,

52:21, 54:2,

54:17, 68:23,

70:11, 71:2,

71:25, 77:11,

77:20, 77:22,

78:7, 83:2,

93:2, 93:10,

93:18, 102:7,

108:1, 110:23,

113:23, 117:3,

117:8, 124:17,

128:2, 129:5,

133:8, 133:13,

134:11

agreed

83:3

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Conducted on May 28, 2024 142

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agreeing

72:19

ahead

10:14, 10:16,

43:2, 48:6

al

5:4

all

5:11, 8:2, 8:3,

9:18, 11:25,

17:25, 20:23,

21:19, 28:1,

28:4, 28:8,

28:14, 28:25,

36:11, 39:13,

41:24, 42:23,

43:3, 44:1,

47:6, 47:21,

48:13, 50:7,

51:25, 53:9,

53:15, 53:23,

56:14, 59:1,

64:19, 67:13,

70:3, 71:8,

73:16, 74:18,

78:21, 79:15,

82:17, 86:6,

86:15, 86:17,

89:7, 92:6,

97:9, 103:14,

104:10, 113:21,

119:7, 123:13,

124:6, 124:21,

125:24, 128:18,

129:1, 130:18,

131:15, 133:13,

134:8, 136:2,

136:17, 136:25,

137:13

allow

107:18

allows

81:12

almost

95:5

alone

37:18, 37:23,

38:2, 135:18

along

10:19, 12:2,

12:6, 13:6

already

113:1, 114:23,

119:17, 120:7

also

2:29, 5:20,

5:23, 10:18,

18:1, 24:7,

28:5, 40:6,

68:6, 73:24,

75:17, 75:22,

79:9, 91:17,

92:3, 92:7,

94:2, 109:17,

122:14

always

24:16, 24:23,

25:7, 25:11

ambiguity

38:22, 38:25,

44:24, 45:15,

73:6, 73:18

ambiguous

39:2, 39:20,

40:25

america

1:12

among

27:12, 128:6,

129:10, 129:21

amount

23:15

analysis

46:4, 46:8

analyzing

52:17, 60:25

angeles

2:7

another

21:14, 28:25,

42:11, 54:14,

56:3, 105:14,

131:3

answer

13:19, 45:14,

46:24, 47:8,

58:24, 59:2,

60:21, 68:24,

69:1, 76:4,

110:10, 120:8

answered

120:7

answers

41:5

any

7:7, 7:11,

8:14, 8:25,

9:16, 9:21,

12:22, 13:3,

13:7, 13:10,

15:17, 16:3,

16:15, 16:20,

16:23, 16:25,

17:4, 20:19,

25:25, 26:6,

26:16, 26:21,

30:25, 45:4,

52:24, 58:21,

60:9, 60:22,

61:4, 61:10,

61:19, 61:22,

67:5, 67:23,

69:7, 80:10,

82:6, 82:11,

82:16, 88:12,

90:20, 94:14,

95:12, 95:25,

96:10, 96:24,

100:4, 103:11,

103:14, 105:5,

110:2, 114:7,

114:17, 115:6,

119:4, 119:7,

119:11, 119:18,

123:18, 128:23,

133:11, 134:1,

134:5, 134:6,

136:6, 140:18,

140:20

anymore

37:8

anything

7:11, 7:15,

15:2, 15:14,

16:7, 43:21,

44:12, 60:16,

61:2, 61:14,

66:3, 67:16,

68:4, 68:17,

86:16, 86:18,

86:19, 87:14,

90:13, 95:5,

97:17, 97:18,

100:1, 101:13,

101:16, 101:17,

101:18, 103:3,

108:19, 109:7,

114:9, 119:25,

120:3, 125:5,

137:9

anywhere

97:5

apart

13:2, 71:5,

74:15, 133:20

api

105:17, 105:19,

105:25, 106:1,

106:24, 107:1,

107:3, 107:4,

107:11, 107:14,

107:22, 107:25

apis

108:3

apologies

76:18

app

7:13, 7:14

appear

11:11, 12:4,

29:14, 29:22,

48:21, 49:1,

49:14, 50:3,

55:11, 113:5

appearances

2:1

appears

30:8

application

18:10, 18:21,

18:22, 18:24,

52:3, 63:24,

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Conducted on May 28, 2024 143

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65:4, 67:8,

68:18, 104:3,

104:9, 105:20,

106:7, 106:20,

108:16, 108:19,

109:23, 124:19

applications

7:12, 18:19,

18:25, 61:20,

62:22, 106:5,

108:8, 108:24,

109:5, 123:15,

124:8, 124:13,

124:17

applied

34:2, 34:4,

35:8, 35:11

applies

92:22

apply

38:19, 94:5

applying

19:15, 19:24

appropriate

13:13, 21:3

apps

80:9

april

3:25, 11:5,

29:11

architecture

51:5

area

37:2

areas

135:6

aren't

13:14

argument

119:22

around

15:25, 39:7

arrow

70:13

art

16:25, 17:5,

17:10, 21:1,

40:7, 54:3,

57:20, 59:16,

59:23, 60:2,

60:8, 60:11,

60:16, 61:12,

61:22, 91:1,

92:8, 92:12,

95:7

ascertain

37:4, 40:3,

46:11, 78:11,

78:18

ascertainable

90:20, 96:11,

96:16, 96:24

asked

12:20, 13:12,

32:12, 37:1,

71:15, 90:5,

94:20, 100:10

asking

26:5, 26:6,

37:7, 70:8,

74:13, 84:17,

109:7, 110:9

asks

13:18

aspects

50:24

assert

24:23, 25:7

asserted

15:20, 16:10,

16:16, 16:20,

17:1, 17:13,

19:5, 19:8,

50:14, 50:21,

52:18, 56:11,

61:23, 67:9,

68:12, 68:20,

85:1, 94:10

asserts

24:17

assigned

64:16

assist

86:5, 86:7,

86:10, 87:10,

87:13

assisted

34:23

assisting

87:16

assists

86:22, 87:11,

87:20, 88:18,

88:25, 89:5

associated

41:12, 65:19,

70:3

assume

64:21, 101:5,

111:7

assumed

99:12, 100:22

atlanta

2:17, 2:26

attached

1:31

attain

37:4

attending

5:12

attention

62:11, 65:22,

66:18, 89:11,

111:21

attorney

13:17, 33:23,

100:2, 140:17,

140:23

attorneys

8:6

august

2:5, 5:16

austin

17:21

author

63:3, 63:4,

64:13, 64:15

authority

139:15

authorized

122:23

automatically

55:22

aware

16:8, 16:12,

57:10, 61:16,

61:19, 61:22

B

b2

3:27, 3:30

bachelor's

20:3

back

26:18, 31:16,

31:18, 48:1,

48:3, 48:5,

50:8, 50:9,

58:25, 62:25,

70:17, 75:4,

79:1, 79:3,

84:1, 85:12,

98:25, 99:18,

99:20, 100:10,

120:24, 126:23,

126:25, 131:3,

135:21, 136:23,

137:4

background

35:17, 60:24

based

20:16, 35:22,

39:19, 40:1,

42:18, 54:9,

58:3, 60:17,

60:23, 67:21,

68:15, 70:6,

85:23, 86:11,

89:8, 92:16,

114:18, 114:19,

115:7, 117:15,

136:3

basically

92:14

basis

94:25, 123:9

bates

3:34, 55:7

bear

54:25

bears

55:7

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 144

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 146 of 178 PageID #: 4003
because

17:18, 48:18,

49:11, 49:24,

51:25, 53:19,

58:9, 63:10,

77:1, 81:21,

83:17, 87:12,

91:4, 92:3,

93:24, 99:2,

101:15, 101:23,

111:19, 115:14,

120:6, 126:4,

126:10, 131:23,

135:6

been

6:8, 20:11,

22:25, 23:13,

23:21, 25:2,

26:19, 31:1,

60:14, 88:21,

89:19, 131:8

before

1:25, 6:19,

8:18, 8:19,

15:10, 21:1,

22:15, 22:19,

29:15, 29:23,

30:9, 30:17,

33:15, 34:17,

40:8, 56:20,

60:8, 60:15,

62:15, 64:11,

71:1, 71:23,

74:13, 75:25,

76:19, 77:17,

77:21, 90:5,

91:18, 92:23,

94:1, 99:6,

100:8, 100:10,

114:7, 131:23,

137:10, 139:14

began

8:10

begin

9:23, 71:13

beginning

14:4, 22:3,

27:5, 44:2,

66:9, 90:23,

131:20, 132:10,

135:11, 135:22

begins

5:1, 27:3,

27:9, 46:16,

102:15, 131:11

behalf

54:13, 56:2

behind

7:14, 8:4

being

45:24, 83:14,

89:8, 95:8,

104:1, 108:11,

112:12, 121:9,

122:12, 122:23,

128:6, 129:9,

129:20

belief

20:20

believe

19:13, 22:21,

32:9, 56:20,

62:9, 67:24,

75:25, 97:11,

111:13, 129:10

bell

32:8, 64:12,

82:9

below

11:21, 66:21

best

13:18, 37:4

bet

33:13, 34:18,

57:14

better

75:7, 121:12

between

17:22, 51:13,

104:21, 104:22,

109:19, 111:3,

111:6

beyond

112:18

bidirectional

51:19, 70:13

big

58:23, 87:23,

95:10, 111:20

bigger

74:19

biggest

127:25

billing

52:1

bit

39:7, 58:8,

68:21, 82:22,

124:2

blank

7:14, 8:9

blue

80:9

blvd

2:6

body

44:15, 54:10,

88:2, 119:13

boilerplate

34:19, 35:1

both

24:1, 24:3,

24:8, 30:23,

68:22, 76:13,

82:21, 93:22,

93:24, 115:13,

116:11, 120:12,

121:13

bottom

116:1, 116:9

boundaries

41:16, 91:4,

101:23, 102:8

box

52:6, 70:1,

74:19, 113:9,

113:10, 114:11,

114:13, 116:11

boxes

114:11, 116:7,

116:9

breadth

35:14, 35:18,

36:6, 36:7,

36:21, 37:3,

37:9, 37:10,

38:1, 85:8,

109:18, 113:17

break

39:8, 48:5,

88:22, 100:2,

100:10, 124:14,

124:15, 136:21

bright

2:13, 5:18,

7:24, 10:3,

12:15, 13:16,

16:5, 16:17,

17:2, 22:13,

24:18, 24:25,

25:9, 25:16,

26:11, 28:17,

32:17, 33:21,

36:9, 36:15,

37:12, 40:23,

42:14, 43:9,

43:18, 44:8,

45:12, 46:22,

47:17, 52:13,

53:2, 53:16,

56:13, 56:23,

57:12, 58:12,

58:22, 60:3,

67:10, 73:19,

75:1, 76:16,

78:5, 79:17,

80:13, 81:23,

83:23, 85:5,

87:22, 88:10,

93:4, 93:20,

94:23, 98:22,

99:14, 100:24,

104:25, 106:11,

106:18, 107:13,

108:21, 109:25,

114:2, 116:16,

116:23, 117:17,

120:13, 123:21,

128:9, 134:2,

134:12, 134:25,

136:15, 136:20,

137:6, 137:7,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 145

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 147 of 178 PageID #: 4004
137:11

broad

18:15, 36:6,

36:13, 37:14,

37:18, 37:23,

69:3, 69:8,

71:12, 71:22,

85:10, 85:17,

95:5, 108:23,

109:3, 109:20

broader

70:4, 121:8

broadly

17:14, 18:16,

35:22, 79:23,

122:13

broken

118:18

build

18:23, 130:3

building

2:24, 18:22

built

136:11

burden

39:23, 39:25,

135:8

bus

41:10

busy

52:1

C

california

2:7

call

38:21, 111:21

called

17:23, 18:18,

22:21, 65:8,

100:17, 101:2

came

75:25, 83:25

can't

25:1, 26:21,

45:3, 46:11,

67:20, 68:6,

69:1, 69:9,

71:13, 71:21,

85:16, 98:20,

101:11, 122:15,

124:11, 130:4

capability

106:16, 106:24

captured

32:10

career

95:16

carried

107:22

case

1:8, 5:6, 6:15,

7:20, 8:12,

11:13, 12:11,

23:20, 25:11,

33:16, 34:2,

34:17, 35:9,

36:4, 77:19,

87:24, 87:25,

122:14

case-by-case

94:24

cases

23:16, 23:23,

106:3

cause

1:23

caveat

33:22

cec

17:24

centered

12:25

centering

13:3

central

5:9, 137:16

certain

37:16, 54:13,

56:2, 56:7,

84:14, 90:2,

108:8, 136:3,

136:13

certainly

15:22, 22:16,

31:3, 33:14,

35:1, 37:16,

48:24, 71:13,

75:24, 82:15,

97:15, 98:23,

108:1, 108:9,

109:6, 109:22,

112:20, 116:25,

125:19, 128:19,

131:21

certainty

37:5, 40:4,

40:16, 45:4,

46:12, 78:12,

78:19, 93:22,

93:24, 93:25,

96:19

certificate

3:7, 140:5

certified

1:25, 140:11

certify

140:12, 140:16

chance

89:8

change

76:4, 76:20,

138:2

changed

56:22, 57:9

changes

13:4, 138:1

chart

83:21

chat

7:11, 10:21,

11:17, 21:15,

29:2

choose

50:20

chose

53:19

citation

28:9

citations

61:11, 95:25

cite

9:9, 9:14,

54:21, 60:9,

60:22, 97:2,

97:12

cited

61:10, 61:12,

61:22, 61:25,

62:13, 67:13

citing

97:4

civil

1:30

claim

3:18, 3:23,

7:19, 7:22,

11:12, 12:10,

12:23, 21:21,

22:8, 23:10,

29:8, 32:4,

32:5, 36:13,

36:17, 36:18,

37:15, 37:18,

37:23, 38:5,

38:6, 38:15,

38:16, 38:22,

40:1, 40:13,

41:6, 41:8,

44:14, 44:25,

45:2, 45:18,

46:2, 46:9,

46:20, 47:19,

50:22, 50:25,

51:5, 51:7,

57:6, 58:16,

58:19, 59:5,

59:9, 78:18,

82:8, 83:7,

83:19, 83:21,

84:3, 84:7,

84:8, 85:3,

85:24, 89:9,

89:14, 91:3,

91:24, 96:21,

97:8, 98:15,

101:4, 101:22,

102:4, 102:5,

102:7, 102:11,

110:14, 115:16,

116:13, 118:14,

118:15, 120:10,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 146

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 148 of 178 PageID #: 4005
123:2, 127:3,

127:23, 129:5,

131:10, 131:24,

132:4, 133:20,

135:10, 135:11,

135:21, 135:22

claimed

35:15

claiming

117:7

claims

9:8, 38:19,

45:15, 50:24,

78:8, 78:10,

78:11, 78:16,

84:17, 84:21,

88:2, 89:18,

89:22, 90:6,

91:10, 92:4,

115:10, 127:18

clarifying

127:12

clarity

127:18, 133:12

class

42:17

clear

38:5, 38:23,

86:20, 86:23,

118:7

clearly

7:16, 69:4,

92:21

client

55:23

close

12:8, 29:1,

30:16, 30:17,

50:7, 137:10

closer

8:20

closing

108:19

code

68:8, 88:8,

88:12, 88:19,

89:3, 89:7,

105:22

column

63:1, 64:25,

81:7, 81:8,

81:9, 111:13,

111:20

com

2:9, 2:19, 2:28

combination

104:17, 106:6

come

20:4, 33:16,

34:18, 35:25,

82:24, 131:3

comes

9:17, 9:24,

12:16, 15:16,

15:18, 26:3,

26:24, 31:15,

32:11, 36:3,

57:13, 60:4,

61:18, 61:21,

62:5, 73:21,

95:22, 97:20,

103:5

comfortable

53:10

comments

118:21

commission

139:23

common

129:25, 130:14,

130:16, 130:20

commonality

121:11

commonly

40:7, 54:3,

57:20

communicate

105:23

communicating

109:19

communication

18:11, 41:10,

51:18, 81:12,

81:22, 82:2,

99:13, 100:23,

102:23, 103:2,

104:21, 105:6,

106:10, 112:7,

112:8, 115:2,

115:3

communications

51:19, 67:1,

104:23, 105:12

communicatively

41:9

compare

64:4, 84:8

comparison

128:16

complaint

14:18, 14:20,

14:23, 14:25,

22:21, 31:8,

48:19, 49:11,

49:25

complete

12:10

completely

7:14

complicated

21:8

complies

6:6

component

69:17, 86:22,

88:16, 88:18,

88:24, 89:5,

118:5, 123:14,

125:8

components

45:8, 88:8,

117:22, 118:4,

118:9, 118:22,

119:23, 119:24,

120:11, 121:2,

121:3, 122:18,

122:23, 123:1,

123:6, 123:25,

124:7, 124:13,

125:2, 125:13,

125:17, 126:1,

126:4, 126:7,

126:10, 126:12

composed

17:16

compound

88:21

comprises

51:11, 65:14,

65:16, 66:11

computer

3:33, 9:10,

9:14, 15:4,

15:6, 17:15,

17:17, 17:22,

17:23, 54:12,

55:6, 55:12,

55:23, 87:20,

88:17, 103:7,

109:21

computerized

1:27

concentrate

40:20

concept

109:21

concepts

122:2

conceptually

103:10

concerned

73:7, 124:5

concert

106:21

concluded

137:17

condition

65:17, 65:20,

66:15

conducting

7:2

configuration

67:4

configured

86:5, 86:10,

87:13

confirm

22:5, 109:13

connection

106:17, 106:25,

107:11, 107:12,

107:15, 109:23,

110:2, 110:4,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 147

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 149 of 178 PageID #: 4006
110:25, 111:3,

111:6, 113:5,

113:12, 113:22,

113:24, 113:25,

117:4, 117:9

consider

16:15, 16:19,

16:25, 77:13,

98:7, 116:12,

118:13

considered

20:18, 31:21,

32:15, 58:5,

77:10, 78:3,

97:11, 97:16,

101:1, 116:25

considering

98:8, 98:9,

112:17, 116:20

consistent

55:25, 81:17

constitute

82:8

constitutes

90:2

construction

7:20, 7:22,

11:12, 12:11,

12:23, 28:1,

32:4, 57:6,

97:8, 101:5,

116:13, 135:15

constructions

3:18, 3:23,

14:14, 14:17,

14:20, 14:22,

21:21, 22:8,

22:20, 29:8,

32:2, 32:10

cont

4:1

contain

12:10, 46:6

contains

83:10

contend

135:17

content

41:13, 86:12

contentions

31:25, 32:3,

32:7, 33:2,

75:19, 75:23,

76:2, 76:9,

76:12, 76:24,

77:6, 77:14,

78:9, 78:17,

82:7

context

35:23, 37:15,

40:9, 54:10,

54:12, 56:11,

57:1, 57:22,

58:2, 69:8,

71:9, 84:2,

84:8, 85:23,

94:12, 94:13,

94:19, 95:1,

103:6, 104:1,

110:8, 113:13,

117:4, 117:14,

128:19, 128:23,

130:17, 130:21,

130:24, 134:14,

135:3

contexts

95:18

continuation

65:3

continue

72:5

contrast

115:8, 124:4

control

41:9, 41:14,

51:12, 51:13,

51:14, 51:17,

52:2, 52:7,

52:16, 52:23,

53:7, 81:13,

99:9, 99:12,

100:17, 100:19,

100:21, 101:5,

111:24, 111:25

controller

51:3, 51:14,

112:1, 112:7,

115:3

controlling

51:19

conventions

115:11

convey

38:21

coordinate

104:20

coordinates

106:8

copy

11:12, 12:5,

48:22, 49:2,

49:15, 50:4,

55:12, 79:7

corporation

64:17

correct

7:20, 11:11,

12:5, 14:15,

14:25, 15:12,

15:13, 19:17,

23:14, 24:12,

27:14, 27:16,

31:22, 32:16,

48:22, 49:2,

49:15, 50:3,

50:14, 55:11,

59:18, 60:11,

60:24, 74:11,

78:12, 78:19,

79:10, 88:5,

97:24, 102:12,

106:10, 110:22,

118:5, 129:3,

129:12, 139:8,

140:14

corrected

101:14

correcting

127:11

corrections

12:23, 13:3

correctly

64:1, 127:9

could

5:13, 11:15,

17:16, 18:1,

18:8, 19:1,

21:15, 22:5,

26:1, 30:25,

35:22, 38:2,

38:18, 39:1,

39:2, 40:3,

42:2, 42:16,

46:12, 47:10,

49:5, 49:19,

50:9, 50:10,

55:3, 55:18,

56:24, 64:4,

67:11, 71:4,

71:16, 77:1,

78:2, 78:11,

78:17, 83:2,

83:3, 87:17,

87:19, 88:11,

88:22, 89:7,

89:10, 92:24,

93:5, 93:7,

93:8, 93:12,

93:14, 93:21,

94:25, 95:5,

97:6, 99:1,

105:13, 105:14,

105:19, 105:22,

106:3, 106:6,

107:7, 107:9,

107:22, 108:1,

108:3, 108:4,

108:14, 108:25,

109:1, 109:5,

109:10, 109:12,

109:14, 109:16,

109:18, 110:16,

111:9, 112:24,

112:25, 113:12,

117:12, 117:16,

117:19, 121:8,

129:4, 129:15,

129:17, 131:5,

133:23, 134:8,

134:17, 134:21,

134:23, 135:22

couldn't

16:22, 61:4,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 148

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 150 of 178 PageID #: 4007
68:1, 82:15,

94:25

counsel

5:13, 5:25,

6:12, 8:1, 9:11,

10:4, 22:12,

33:12, 33:13,

33:16, 34:10,

34:15, 34:18,

34:22, 35:3,

35:25, 76:10,

76:11, 76:16,

76:18, 137:10,

140:17, 140:20

count

48:24

counted

30:9

county

140:2

couple

24:13, 36:7,

99:3

coupled

41:9

course

79:14, 91:9,

91:17, 126:15,

130:3, 130:23

court

1:1, 3:7, 5:5,

6:1, 6:4, 6:10,

7:5, 14:22,

14:24, 15:1,

25:23, 26:9,

31:5, 31:7,

31:10, 76:6,

126:17

court-related

32:21

covered

99:6, 114:6

csr

141:6, 141:7

curious

63:10

currently

12:12, 12:17,

41:25, 60:5

curriculum

3:15

cut

100:9

D

data

67:2, 122:24

dataset

107:17

date

5:8, 19:7,

19:13, 19:15,

19:17, 19:20,

19:21, 20:1,

22:2, 22:11,

29:18, 64:22

dated

3:20, 3:25,

11:5, 21:23,

29:10

dates

57:2

day

1:24, 139:16,

141:2

deadline

8:20

deal

8:1

dealing

104:16

dealt

25:12

declaration

3:12, 7:20,

7:23, 8:5, 8:7,

8:17, 8:22, 9:9,

10:15, 10:20,

11:4, 11:12,

12:3, 12:6,

12:9, 12:14,

12:23, 13:4,

13:22, 14:7,

14:9, 14:12,

16:7, 17:6,

30:20, 31:16,

32:19, 45:2,

48:23, 49:9,

49:16, 49:23,

50:5, 50:10,

53:21, 54:6,

59:13, 61:9,

61:13, 61:15,

70:18, 72:6,

73:24, 74:7,

75:14, 79:6,

80:4, 82:18,

82:21, 82:25,

83:1, 86:25,

90:15, 90:16,

97:5, 97:12,

97:15, 99:2,

99:5, 101:20,

102:18, 103:6,

112:13, 116:17,

116:21, 119:8,

123:19, 127:2,

131:8, 135:20

declare

139:7

default

103:23

defendant

1:15, 24:9

defendants

2:11, 5:19,

24:1, 24:6, 25:6

defended

24:7

define

44:25, 57:3,

75:6, 91:4,

101:23, 102:8,

117:13, 125:16

defined

45:2, 70:1,

136:2

definite

85:19

definition

54:20, 55:15,

55:18, 123:24,

128:5, 128:8,

128:13, 129:8,

129:11, 129:14,

130:5

definitions

15:11, 54:5,

54:22, 56:15,

56:25, 73:12,

73:14

degree

17:16, 17:20,

20:3, 93:24,

96:17

degrees

17:25

delivered

41:14

delivery

46:16, 47:2,

127:4, 130:25,

132:11, 135:12,

135:15

depend

37:14, 37:25,

71:9, 73:20,

83:13, 84:9,

94:11, 94:18,

103:25, 106:13,

107:1, 107:4,

107:14, 114:1,

114:3, 133:16,

136:9, 136:10

depending

17:20

depends

36:16, 95:1,

108:15

depo

48:12

depos

5:11, 6:2

deposition

1:16, 1:20,

5:2, 5:12, 7:2,

9:6, 10:2, 11:4,

13:14, 22:13,

30:20, 140:6,

140:22

depositions

23:19

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 149

PLANET DEPOS

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Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 151 of 178 PageID #: 4008
describe

52:22, 75:16,

103:9, 104:7,

104:11, 115:13,

116:4, 121:13,

130:19

described

15:2, 51:17,

52:15, 53:7,

58:2, 66:20,

77:24, 79:19,

80:6, 104:1,

111:8, 114:20

describes

40:12, 103:13,

113:17, 120:11,

136:7

describing

68:22, 95:2,

105:10, 113:9,

135:5

description

3:10, 4:2,

19:4, 35:16,

53:19, 81:2,

85:24, 97:7,

101:11, 111:12,

111:16, 111:22,

116:19, 137:14

designated

69:17

designations

68:8

designed

136:12

designs

135:7

desktop

7:14

detail

66:21

detected

66:15

detecting

65:16

determine

40:9, 45:16,

46:4, 84:14,

87:15, 87:19,

88:18, 88:24,

89:4, 94:21,

95:13

determined

86:21, 90:11

determining

20:18

device-based

125:7

device-phased

125:1

devices

43:1, 44:3,

66:22, 67:2,

102:16, 102:22,

103:2, 103:11,

103:15

diagram

74:23, 75:13,

81:11, 111:23,

112:5

diagramming

115:11

diagrams

115:13, 115:15

dictionaries

9:10, 9:14,

9:18, 15:4,

15:6, 57:2

dictionary

3:33, 15:11,

54:19, 54:22,

55:6, 55:12,

61:5, 73:11,

128:8, 129:11,

129:14

difference

104:22, 120:15

differences

133:5

different

17:19, 35:21,

38:7, 38:15,

38:23, 42:21,

43:16, 43:22,

51:24, 54:5,

57:10, 57:15,

63:20, 67:18,

67:24, 68:5,

68:19, 70:2,

70:4, 77:25,

84:7, 85:17,

92:17, 98:19,

103:9, 107:19,

108:3, 108:24,

109:4, 115:14,

115:15, 118:23,

119:25, 120:12,

120:23, 121:4,

121:9, 121:12,

121:14, 121:17,

121:20, 121:23,

121:24, 122:1,

122:2, 122:3,

122:7, 122:12,

122:15, 122:19,

129:24, 130:13,

132:24, 133:3,

133:6, 133:8,

133:10

difficult

88:24

difficulties

44:16, 100:7

directing

20:12

direction

8:3

disagree

45:25

disclaimer

82:8, 82:15,

123:19

disclaiming

123:24

disclosed

65:13, 66:10

discloses

51:10

disclosing

50:17, 79:22

discuss

44:15, 45:22,

48:23, 49:16,

50:16, 50:20,

76:10, 98:10,

100:1, 112:15,

116:12, 119:10

discussed

15:5, 15:15,

32:20, 35:3,

43:20, 43:25,

50:4, 71:23,

89:18, 112:13

discussing

9:23, 37:5,

41:2, 45:14,

53:20, 59:20,

89:19, 98:16,

103:8, 116:20,

123:3, 125:20,

131:9

discussion

44:10, 91:10,

92:5, 92:6,

92:21, 94:5

discussions

100:4

display

1:13

displayed

108:11

distinct

27:18

distinction

125:9

distinguished

128:16

distinguishes

123:5

distinguishing

124:4, 124:15,

125:7, 129:16

district

1:1, 1:2, 5:5

division

1:3, 5:6

document

3:20, 3:25,

3:32, 11:6,

12:1, 12:3,

14:24, 15:1,

21:22, 21:23,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 150

PLANET DEPOS

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Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 152 of 178 PageID #: 4009
21:25, 22:2,

22:3, 22:11,

22:15, 22:22,

22:25, 23:5,

29:7, 29:9,

29:10, 29:15,

45:16, 48:20,

49:10, 49:13,

49:23, 55:6,

63:14, 111:20

documents

7:7, 14:22,

30:19, 30:25,

31:2, 31:4,

31:5, 31:7,

31:13, 32:22,

61:16, 62:17,

76:6

doing

15:23, 17:3,

17:7, 18:22,

26:19, 59:6,

60:14, 75:7,

97:13, 98:12,

108:2

don

1:17, 1:21,

3:3, 3:12, 3:15,

5:2, 6:7, 11:4,

12:1, 30:13,

139:11, 139:15,

140:7

done

75:7, 130:8

down

40:5, 85:13,

85:15, 88:22

download

10:23, 21:15,

48:11, 55:3,

63:18

downloaded

11:9, 11:22,

48:13, 63:19

dozen

6:22, 23:22

dr

1:17, 1:20,

3:3, 5:2, 6:7,

6:14, 7:19,

10:14, 11:3,

11:8, 12:4,

12:9, 21:13,

21:24, 23:13,

40:20, 44:19,

45:5, 48:3,

48:23, 49:9,

49:16, 49:23,

50:5, 50:10,

65:21, 79:4,

99:21, 120:18,

126:25, 136:19,

137:14, 139:11,

139:15, 140:7

draft

8:7

drafted

34:23

drafting

34:23

drives

61:7

drops

99:17

due

8:18

duly

1:22, 6:8,

140:22

during

100:2

E

e

66:12, 123:14

e-mail

2:9, 2:19, 2:28

each

41:11, 66:22,

112:21

earlier

14:17, 15:5,

83:14

earliest

19:22

eastern

1:2, 5:5

education

21:10

effect

133:6

effectively

132:24, 133:2

effort

37:4, 40:11,

51:2

eight

13:24, 14:6,

27:6, 27:13,

30:3

either

15:24, 17:7,

36:24, 98:12,

101:8, 120:7,

123:19, 133:24,

134:19

electrical

17:17, 17:22,

17:23

electronics

1:10, 1:11, 5:4

element

47:3, 54:14,

56:3, 127:5,

127:19, 128:6,

128:22, 128:24,

129:21, 130:21,

136:4, 136:5

elements

47:4, 79:10,

92:15, 92:17,

127:6, 129:10

elicit

22:18

eliminate

41:7

else

9:17, 15:2,

15:14, 15:16,

15:18, 21:5,

31:12, 35:23,

61:2, 61:14,

66:5, 68:9,

73:9, 73:13,

73:22, 120:1,

120:3, 128:17,

129:17, 137:9

elsewhere

61:13, 97:12

emanuel

2:23, 5:23

embodiment

53:15, 65:14,

82:4

embodiments

66:11, 81:15,

81:25, 112:1,

112:9

employed

140:17, 140:20

employee

140:20

enable

104:20

encompass

118:21, 119:23,

121:2

encompasses

121:7, 121:10,

122:11

encrypt

113:8, 113:9,

113:18, 113:19

encrypted

113:24, 113:25

end

22:3, 51:11,

58:11, 91:15,

101:21, 107:16,

110:20, 124:22,

124:25, 132:16,

137:14

end-user

91:6, 101:24

ending

64:8

enforce

66:24

enforced

67:1

engineering

17:17, 17:23,

17:24, 18:3,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 151

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 153 of 178 PageID #: 4010
18:5

english

128:3, 128:13,

129:9, 129:25,

130:15, 130:16,

130:20

enough

40:9, 40:14,

73:3, 113:20,

126:15

entire

45:1, 83:11,

89:13

entirely

115:14, 125:22,

126:5

entitled

3:32, 12:1,

29:7, 55:6

environment

21:9

equivalent

99:13, 100:22,

101:6

especially

35:15, 54:9,

85:23, 109:19,

115:8, 128:21,

134:14

essentially

69:6

establishes

51:18

et

5:4

even

7:1, 17:21,

18:2, 22:2,

54:4, 59:2,

69:2, 69:3,

70:6, 71:13,

76:25, 82:13,

94:15, 107:15,

107:18, 136:22

ever

25:13, 40:8,

60:7, 60:16

every

27:25, 74:10,

75:16

everything

8:4, 37:16,

75:16

evidence

3:19, 3:24,

15:17, 21:22,

22:9, 28:5,

28:7, 28:11,

28:15, 29:9,

38:8, 60:9,

60:13, 60:22,

61:11, 77:6

exact

130:4

exactly

9:15, 51:8,

64:18, 73:8,

89:24, 90:4,

123:8, 133:1,

133:4

examination

3:4, 6:9,

140:24

example

17:21, 18:4,

18:8, 20:6,

32:24, 36:24,

47:14, 47:19,

50:23, 55:22,

56:7, 56:22,

57:11, 66:25,

67:21, 69:2,

71:10, 77:3,

78:4, 81:25,

82:3, 88:9,

89:3, 95:7,

95:12, 95:17,

95:19, 108:11,

108:18, 115:20,

119:3, 119:6,

124:7, 125:20,

126:5, 128:6

examples

25:18, 57:16,

59:1, 107:20,

119:4, 119:11

exceed

20:10

exception

25:2

exceptionally

118:12

excerpt

55:12

exclusive

121:15, 122:5

exclusively

18:20

executable

91:5, 101:24

execute

51:10

executing

65:18

exhibit

3:10, 3:12,

3:15, 3:17,

3:22, 3:26,

3:27, 3:30,

3:32, 4:2, 4:3,

10:15, 10:16,

10:17, 10:22,

10:24, 11:4,

11:7, 11:15,

11:18, 12:1,

12:8, 12:10,

21:14, 21:16,

21:17, 21:20,

29:1, 29:3,

29:5, 29:7,

29:16, 30:16,

31:18, 31:19,

48:10, 48:12,

48:14, 48:15,

48:16, 48:18,

49:4, 49:6,

49:8, 49:9,

49:10, 49:11,

49:18, 49:20,

49:22, 49:24,

55:1, 55:3,

55:4, 55:5,

55:19, 62:8,

63:13, 63:15,

63:16, 63:20,

63:23, 64:3,

64:11, 67:16,

68:15, 68:18,

69:11, 80:23,

80:24, 111:10

exhibits

3:9, 4:1,

10:20, 11:3,

48:7

exist

16:12

existed

21:1, 77:18

expand

36:25

experience

18:10, 20:4,

20:9, 20:22,

20:25, 25:11,

34:4, 35:11,

60:14, 60:18,

60:24, 61:6,

92:16

expert

1:16, 1:20,

104:12, 140:6

experts

28:21, 30:12

expiration

141:8

expires

139:23

explore

36:20

expressing

93:13

extend

105:14

extent

87:5

extra

92:19

extrinsic

3:19, 3:24,

15:17, 21:21,

22:8, 28:5,

28:6, 28:11,

28:15, 29:8,

77:6, 77:8

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 152

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 154 of 178 PageID #: 4011
F

face

62:22, 67:14

fact

36:12, 37:18,

37:23, 53:10,

59:20, 89:17,

130:16

factors

20:18, 20:19

facts

140:13

fair

19:4, 73:9

fairly

104:2

faith

40:11, 46:3,

46:7

far

26:18, 28:4,

43:2, 124:5

feature

103:13

federal

1:29

feel

33:18, 39:23,

44:23, 87:17,

120:6

few

15:11, 84:12,

136:20

field

17:12, 17:18,

18:2, 18:4,

19:5, 67:9,

67:17, 67:18,

67:24, 67:25,

68:5, 68:7,

68:10, 68:19,

94:10, 94:15,

95:7

figure

13:3, 50:17,

50:20, 50:23,

51:9, 51:12,

51:22, 51:24,

52:1, 52:5,

52:23, 53:3,

53:11, 53:14,

53:18, 66:21,

69:10, 69:17,

69:25, 70:5,

70:14, 74:10,

74:15, 74:16,

75:16, 77:21,

79:7, 79:9,

79:16, 79:21,

80:2, 80:5,

80:7, 80:16,

80:17, 81:2,

81:10, 81:20,

89:8, 99:1,

100:11, 100:15,

101:3, 101:14,

101:15, 101:16,

112:4, 112:5,

112:22, 113:4,

113:6, 113:10,

113:17, 114:8,

114:18, 114:20,

114:22, 114:24,

115:7, 115:9,

115:16, 115:17,

115:19, 116:9,

116:13

figures

12:25, 80:19,

111:13, 111:22,

112:12, 112:20,

116:19

file

9:8, 97:9,

101:13, 101:18

filed

16:9, 48:19,

64:24, 65:4

files

48:8

filing

135:8

filling

8:10

financially

140:21

find

15:24, 61:4,

63:10, 88:23,

103:3

finding

14:9

fine

14:3, 33:4,

39:10, 42:22,

128:20

firm

5:16, 5:23

first

6:8, 8:7, 8:9,

10:20, 10:24,

23:12, 28:7,

28:8, 30:1,

31:11, 39:8,

39:15, 40:19,

48:14, 48:18,

49:10, 49:23,

53:23, 64:1,

64:25, 67:19,

67:22, 68:4,

68:16, 69:23,

71:2, 72:11,

102:20, 102:21,

110:3, 110:9,

117:21

fish

2:15, 5:19,

5:21, 137:7

fit

17:25, 20:8

fits

17:15, 76:5,

129:18

five

18:9, 20:4,

20:5, 20:21,

26:25, 27:3,

27:6, 65:22,

66:6, 66:8,

76:19, 76:22,

136:21

floor

2:6, 2:16

focus

17:20, 44:20,

86:9, 110:14

focusing

130:10

follow

88:7, 88:11,

88:19

following

23:11, 44:10,

44:12, 62:21,

89:2

follows

6:8

foregoing

139:8, 140:13

forgotten

14:18

form

7:24, 12:15,

13:16, 16:5,

16:17, 17:2,

24:18, 24:25,

25:9, 25:16,

26:11, 28:17,

32:17, 33:21,

36:9, 36:15,

37:12, 40:23,

42:14, 43:9,

43:18, 44:8,

45:12, 46:22,

47:17, 52:13,

53:2, 53:16,

56:13, 56:23,

57:12, 58:12,

58:22, 60:3,

67:10, 73:19,

75:1, 76:10,

78:5, 79:17,

80:13, 81:23,

83:23, 85:5,

87:22, 88:10,

93:4, 93:20,

94:23, 98:22,

99:14, 100:24,

104:25, 106:11,

106:18, 107:13,

108:21, 109:25,

114:2, 116:16,

116:23, 117:17,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 153

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 155 of 178 PageID #: 4012
120:13, 123:21,

128:9, 134:12,

134:25, 136:15

formatting

13:1, 22:17,

30:22, 31:10,

32:23, 76:7

formed

12:13

forming

17:1

forth

33:19, 34:14,

35:6, 44:22,

45:19, 45:24,

46:8, 46:10,

46:19, 47:6,

73:18

forwards

91:6, 101:25

found

14:1, 25:15,

25:23, 26:9,

26:23, 83:20,

90:7

four

23:4, 23:7,

29:20, 62:12,

119:9

fourth

62:3

frame

19:11, 19:25,

56:19, 112:7,

112:8, 115:2,

115:3

framework

18:16

framing

112:6

friday

9:11, 10:1,

10:6

full

136:22

function

56:7, 56:8,

115:21, 115:22,

115:23, 115:24

functional

74:23, 75:12,

81:11, 111:23,

112:5, 115:13

functionality

79:23, 82:5,

84:25, 103:9,

107:21, 108:5,

108:7, 135:5

functions

54:13, 56:2,

115:14, 125:2,

125:7

further

51:12, 65:16,

66:21, 137:7,

140:16, 140:19

G

ga

2:26

gave

33:13, 58:17,

107:21

general

14:8, 84:24,

102:7, 110:9,

110:13

generally

18:15, 25:3,

105:13, 108:4,

110:12

generate

133:22

generated

132:23, 133:18,

133:24, 134:10,

134:22

generic

22:18, 41:15,

94:12, 118:12

georgia

2:17

getting

133:6

giant

71:7

give

7:3, 12:21,

18:15, 39:21,

39:24, 40:9,

42:11, 56:15,

57:3, 58:24,

62:6, 69:1,

71:10, 74:1,

82:15, 95:6,

95:12, 98:13,

111:17, 113:19,

130:2, 130:5

given

56:19

gives

42:15, 42:19,

68:22, 128:23,

130:22

giving

35:9, 37:4,

43:8, 59:21,

97:16

glance

29:17

go

10:14, 10:16,

13:6, 31:16,

40:10, 47:21,

48:6, 48:8,

51:16, 58:25,

72:8, 76:21,

78:21, 84:1,

89:10, 100:9,

117:20, 120:24,

126:18, 127:1,

131:3, 135:21

goal

75:15

going

11:2, 21:13,

26:18, 29:6,

34:8, 39:7,

39:9, 47:23,

48:6, 48:7,

78:23, 100:9,

126:20, 137:1,

137:15

good

6:13, 14:4,

38:17, 38:25,

40:10, 46:3,

46:7, 59:19,

99:25, 128:15,

128:18

gosh

25:20

graduate

20:13

grammatically

65:25

great

8:1

guess

12:19, 16:22,

18:18, 32:3,

35:21, 41:1,

41:5, 42:16,

58:8, 63:5,

68:23, 70:1,

73:10, 73:20,

75:4, 77:8,

79:23, 82:3,

96:8, 99:24,

104:3, 104:15,

104:16, 106:12,

107:1, 107:25,

110:5, 114:15,

115:13, 117:12,

117:18, 122:4,

133:4, 134:6,

135:1, 136:9

guessed

8:23

guidance

38:9

H

habit

82:20

hand

6:5, 6:11,

141:1

happen

117:16

happened

26:1

happy

110:7

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 154

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 156 of 178 PageID #: 4013
hard

67:12, 72:3,

93:23, 133:19

hardware

125:23, 125:24,

126:15, 126:16

harris

140:2

hartman

1:25, 6:2,

140:10, 141:6

head

80:19, 88:14,

95:15, 98:6,

98:24, 104:5,

104:13

heading

39:14, 39:16,

44:3, 110:15

heads

76:19

headwater

1:4, 5:3, 5:16,

6:15

headwater's

31:25, 32:6,

33:2, 48:19,

75:18, 75:20,

75:22, 76:24,

77:13, 78:9,

78:16, 82:7

hear

83:25, 129:14

heard

25:14, 26:8

help

44:25, 57:3,

68:14, 78:20,

91:4, 101:22,

102:8

helpful

70:6

hence

118:7

here

5:1, 8:1,

11:23, 12:22,

13:7, 13:9,

17:16, 17:25,

19:18, 20:9,

20:15, 20:25,

21:18, 26:3,

26:21, 28:3,

28:19, 31:25,

32:16, 33:8,

34:3, 37:5,

38:21, 39:3,

40:1, 40:6,

42:5, 43:20,

43:25, 44:24,

48:13, 50:13,

51:8, 53:5,

53:6, 53:19,

54:6, 54:11,

56:17, 56:19,

58:24, 59:7,

59:10, 60:6,

60:17, 62:6,

71:14, 71:21,

72:19, 73:24,

74:4, 76:8,

80:7, 80:15,

82:12, 83:6,

83:17, 83:18,

84:11, 84:23,

85:13, 85:21,

86:20, 87:4,

87:17, 87:24,

90:16, 90:18,

90:23, 92:7,

92:22, 93:2,

93:6, 93:7,

93:9, 93:13,

95:22, 96:8,

96:23, 97:16,

97:18, 97:20,

98:13, 101:20,

102:10, 114:25,

118:11, 118:17,

119:5, 119:10,

122:3, 125:20,

125:25, 130:8,

131:1, 133:12,

133:20, 134:4,

135:9, 137:11

here's

124:3

hereto

1:31, 140:21

hey

79:5, 126:17

hi

99:22

higher

89:7

highlight

74:9, 80:11

highlighted

72:10, 74:16,

74:18, 77:21,

77:22

highlighting

79:13

histories

14:14, 15:20,

16:4, 97:9

history

9:8, 97:2,

97:5, 97:18,

101:13, 101:18

honest

69:22, 70:15

hope

35:7, 72:3,

82:22, 102:9

hour

10:8

hours

8:21, 9:3,

10:8, 10:10

however

126:3

hundred

9:1

hung

65:24

hypothetical

58:20, 58:24,

59:4, 71:7,

71:12, 87:23,

135:1, 135:7

hypothetically

108:23, 109:8,

110:5, 117:11,

117:18, 134:6

I

idea

8:14, 8:25,

33:16, 35:21,

38:21, 46:10,

73:4, 88:20,

128:18, 130:23

ideas

32:4, 51:2

identifiable

41:11

identification

75:11

identified

27:21, 44:13,

70:9, 74:14,

74:22, 119:1

identifier

41:12

identifies

23:10, 28:21,

30:12

identify

5:13, 40:21,

43:7, 43:16,

44:6, 44:20,

45:10, 79:10,

119:11, 120:1,

120:3

identifying

42:1

illustrated

66:23

illustrates

80:7, 81:21

illustrating

81:11, 82:2,

111:23, 112:5

implement

130:10

implementation

18:11, 18:21,

19:3, 52:4

implemented

125:18, 125:22,

134:24

implementing

81:12

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 155

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 157 of 178 PageID #: 4014
implied

125:9

implies

37:2, 109:17,

111:5

imply

32:4

imprecise

46:11

inc

1:12

include

15:8, 38:16,

66:22, 85:17,

95:25, 108:8,

108:11

included

32:2, 58:10

including

30:13, 68:16,

69:4, 120:11,

122:4

inclusion

32:23

inconsistent

122:11, 125:15

indefinite

25:15, 25:22,

25:24, 26:10,

26:23, 28:2,

36:14, 37:19,

37:24, 38:2,

46:3, 59:8,

59:9, 83:15,

83:20, 83:22,

84:6, 84:10,

85:4, 85:11,

85:14, 85:23,

86:3, 86:8,

86:16, 86:17,

86:19, 87:1,

87:11, 87:12,

90:8, 90:9,

90:12, 96:4,

96:7, 96:16,

96:18, 103:3,

135:18

indefiniteness

33:9, 36:8,

36:21, 36:22,

37:11, 58:21,

83:11, 89:14,

127:14, 131:15

independent

84:5, 90:15

index

3:1

indicate

125:12, 126:3

indication

68:22

individually

27:15

industrial

18:2, 18:5

industry

18:19

influence

20:24

inform

41:15, 75:2,

97:19, 113:11

information

17:14, 18:1,

18:17, 22:20,

69:5, 73:4,

113:20

informed

55:23

informs

21:11

infringed

24:17, 24:23,

25:8, 28:22

infringement

31:25, 32:3,

32:7, 33:2,

75:18, 75:23,

76:2, 76:11,

76:24, 77:6,

77:14, 78:9,

78:16, 82:7

infringers

24:2, 25:7

innovation

21:7

innovations

21:3

inside

69:25

installations

67:4

instance

1:22

instances

26:22

instead

59:5

instructions

106:9, 106:16,

130:3

intend

13:10

inter

105:25

interchangeably

82:22

interest

63:11

interested

140:21

interface

52:3, 84:25,

85:7, 85:22,

86:3, 86:11,

88:5, 105:17,

105:20, 105:25,

106:1, 106:24,

107:11, 107:22,

107:25

internal

74:22, 75:12

international

64:17

internet

3:34, 55:7,

55:13, 91:7,

102:1, 104:15

interpretation

42:3, 75:20

interpretations

43:23, 44:7,

44:14, 45:11,

45:18, 46:20,

47:15, 119:1,

119:20

interpreted

38:6

intrinsic

38:8

introduce

10:15, 11:2,

21:14, 28:25,

29:7, 48:6,

49:8, 49:22,

54:24, 54:25,

55:2

introducing

11:25, 21:20,

48:16, 55:5,

63:23

invalid

25:8

invented

36:2

invention

57:7, 77:13

inventor

135:8

invoked

106:1, 106:4

involved

23:13, 23:21,

25:2

involvement

23:17

ipr

16:9, 16:20,

16:23, 24:8

iprs

16:15

isolation

57:19, 85:4

issue

13:2, 42:1,

87:9, 119:19,

127:22

issues

33:15, 45:22,

53:6

item

74:10, 99:8,

100:16, 100:17

items

74:14, 74:18

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 156

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 158 of 178 PageID #: 4015
itself

52:22, 57:19,

57:24, 61:1,

79:14, 80:2,

94:2, 94:3,

94:9, 96:4,

103:12, 132:25,

133:7, 133:9,

133:14, 134:9

J

jang

2:22, 5:22,

10:3

jbright@fr

2:19

job

75:7

john

137:14

jonathan

2:13, 5:18,

137:6

jr

1:17, 1:21,

3:3, 6:7,

139:11, 139:16,

140:7

jrg

1:9, 5:7

jump

17:8, 39:7,

42:23, 43:12,

66:4

jumped

43:2

jury

25:23, 26:9

K

kabat

2:5, 5:16

keep

39:9, 55:23

kevin

2:22, 5:22

kevinjang@quinnemanuel

2:28

key

15:24

keyword

123:2

keywords

70:2

kind

18:2, 18:16,

21:8, 21:10,

26:13, 26:17,

51:4, 57:22,

69:25, 74:12,

109:17, 110:2,

111:5, 132:3

know

9:24, 13:6,

14:10, 16:23,

17:19, 17:21,

18:17, 18:25,

19:1, 19:7,

20:12, 20:24,

21:1, 25:10,

26:18, 31:10,

32:1, 32:13,

34:23, 36:3,

36:5, 37:15,

39:11, 40:10,

42:18, 44:5,

50:8, 53:5,

57:5, 57:8,

57:10, 57:15,

58:14, 60:18,

63:3, 64:13,

64:15, 64:18,

64:19, 67:22,

68:7, 69:3,

69:4, 70:4,

70:16, 76:23,

77:1, 77:2,

77:12, 77:15,

78:20, 80:16,

83:24, 85:17,

86:6, 87:3,

88:12, 88:22,

90:18, 94:12,

95:20, 95:21,

96:17, 98:4,

98:24, 99:11,

100:25, 101:11,

101:14, 103:19,

105:8, 107:16,

107:17, 107:19,

109:6, 115:18,

116:6, 117:1,

118:15, 119:18,

120:19, 122:4,

123:2, 127:23,

128:7, 128:15,

128:17, 128:21,

129:17, 133:19,

134:17

known

40:7, 54:3,

59:16, 59:22,

60:2, 60:8,

60:11, 61:12,

70:21, 90:25,

92:8, 92:12

L

lab

63:6

lack

93:22

language

41:6, 86:9,

87:1, 89:9,

91:3, 101:22,

102:4, 102:5,

102:8, 102:11,

103:1, 103:4,

110:14, 110:19,

123:10, 124:16,

130:10, 133:20

large

15:23, 19:1,

21:9, 135:6

largely

125:22, 126:4

last

9:11, 30:6,

41:20, 46:25,

69:6, 72:12,

72:23, 104:16,

121:1, 127:1,

131:19, 135:21

later

29:14, 29:18,

57:15

law

5:15, 5:23, 7:5

layer

110:22, 110:25

layer's

104:9

layers

103:8, 104:3,

104:10, 105:23

least

14:21, 20:3,

32:3, 32:4,

33:16, 34:20,

36:18, 37:16,

39:4, 42:25,

44:2, 59:24,

65:15, 65:17,

65:18, 66:13,

66:14, 69:5,

78:2, 84:11,

102:15, 102:22,

103:1, 105:20,

115:9, 119:3,

125:9

leave

41:16, 72:13

leaves

42:5, 72:21,

73:4, 74:4

lee

2:14, 5:20

legal

33:8, 33:19,

34:9, 34:13,

36:1, 82:14,

97:7, 124:1,

124:2

length

40:18, 115:22,

115:23

less

9:1, 70:6,

96:16

let's

26:25, 27:8,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 157

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 159 of 178 PageID #: 4016
31:16, 39:13,

42:23, 43:12,

47:21, 53:22,

59:12, 70:17,

72:5, 72:8,

74:6, 78:21,

86:9, 89:10,

94:8, 111:12,

112:22, 114:22,

117:20, 120:24,

122:17, 127:1,

131:3, 135:21

level

14:5, 17:9,

20:19, 21:10,

68:11, 104:3,

111:7

levels

104:4, 105:23

light

35:16, 78:8,

78:16

likely

25:21, 26:1,

30:22, 34:25,

77:4

likewise

134:8

limitation

96:20, 118:14

line

138:2

link

41:10, 41:14,

51:13, 51:15,

51:17, 51:18,

52:7, 52:16,

52:23, 53:6,

53:7, 99:9,

99:12, 100:17,

100:19, 100:21,

101:6, 111:24,

111:25, 118:21,

120:12, 122:19,

122:24, 122:25,

132:7, 132:13,

132:18

list

31:24, 62:13,

62:21, 97:10

listed

34:3, 62:22,

101:10

lists

27:10, 27:13,

28:5

literally

96:23

litigation

23:14, 23:22,

24:16, 24:22,

25:6

little

10:9, 58:8,

68:21, 82:22,

124:1, 124:2

llc

1:4, 5:3, 5:17

llp

2:23

located

81:20

logical

103:8

logically

109:17

long

10:5, 44:6,

48:20, 53:18,

62:13, 78:13,

84:25

longer

46:15, 118:14

look

14:17, 22:4,

22:5, 29:19,

29:25, 39:13,

57:18, 60:5,

69:4, 69:10,

77:1, 79:19,

81:1, 84:1,

84:8, 90:13,

97:9, 98:25,

100:12, 110:7,

110:17, 111:12,

112:22, 114:22,

120:22, 122:17,

124:22, 134:24,

135:22, 136:12,

136:20

looked

9:10, 29:15,

29:23, 31:3,

32:20, 33:14,

67:22, 67:23,

68:1, 68:3,

68:16, 68:21,

76:6, 77:9,

77:21, 98:15,

99:16, 112:18

looking

16:1, 22:1,

30:17, 32:22,

40:13, 57:6,

57:11, 64:5,

67:12, 69:2,

69:22, 70:6,

73:21, 80:1,

80:3, 80:14,

88:16, 98:20,

113:6, 114:18,

114:19, 115:7,

116:6, 118:16,

120:17, 134:21,

134:23

looks

11:14, 12:7,

27:3, 27:15,

27:16, 29:17,

30:21, 49:17,

50:6, 55:14,

64:7, 116:3

los

2:7

lot

23:13, 32:21,

107:19

loud

65:10

lower

6:11

lucas

2:30, 5:10

lunch

99:23, 100:10

M

m-a-e-s

63:2

machine

1:28

made

73:23

maes

4:4, 63:2,

63:5, 63:21,

64:6, 64:14

main

61:7

make

36:13, 37:19,

37:24, 38:2,

132:1, 134:16,

136:4, 136:14

makes

70:6, 85:10,

87:25, 96:4,

134:13

making

44:18, 60:23

manner

47:11

many

6:21, 8:21,

23:16, 25:20,

25:22, 27:18,

50:24, 53:20,

57:14, 60:12,

80:19, 95:16,

95:17, 95:18,

112:20

map

125:24

march

3:20, 21:23,

22:11, 22:12,

22:14, 65:5

marked

10:17, 10:22,

21:16, 25:22,

29:3, 48:10,

49:4, 49:18,

55:1, 63:16

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 158

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 160 of 178 PageID #: 4017
marks

137:13

marshall

1:3, 5:6

match

115:12

matched

20:14

material

126:11

materials

16:20, 16:23,

31:21, 32:15,

97:11

matter

5:3

matters

124:16

maybe

8:18, 10:3,

12:25, 18:2,

23:20, 23:25,

24:5, 36:17,

37:2, 39:10,

76:21, 82:21,

107:24, 108:4,

128:10, 128:16

mean

9:14, 14:19,

18:14, 18:22,

35:18, 38:16,

39:1, 39:23,

42:2, 42:9,

42:12, 44:17,

54:6, 61:25,

68:7, 74:5,

75:21, 82:20,

85:15, 85:20,

93:14, 94:14,

95:3, 95:5,

96:8, 105:1,

105:21, 106:13,

106:19, 106:20,

107:15, 107:16,

110:1, 113:18,

117:14, 120:16,

121:14, 121:23,

122:1, 122:3,

122:6, 122:7,

123:22, 124:10,

124:16, 130:6,

133:2

meaning

36:25, 39:25,

40:3, 41:7,

41:17, 41:19,

42:6, 42:7,

42:11, 42:12,

42:13, 42:21,

44:21, 54:8,

56:11, 56:16,

56:21, 57:4,

57:8, 57:11,

57:14, 57:20,

57:25, 58:3,

58:6, 58:19,

72:14, 72:16,

72:24, 72:25,

73:3, 73:11,

74:1, 75:3,

78:11, 78:18,

82:14, 85:8,

90:20, 94:9,

94:17, 96:10,

96:16, 96:23,

119:12, 123:24,

128:3

meanings

39:21, 39:24,

40:22, 41:3,

41:23, 43:8,

43:17, 43:22,

44:6, 44:13,

44:21, 45:11,

45:18, 45:24,

46:8, 46:13,

46:20, 47:7,

47:15, 74:3,

107:19, 118:25,

119:19

means

37:1, 39:4,

40:15, 42:20,

45:16, 54:12,

56:1, 70:16,

73:8, 82:13,

82:25, 86:7,

127:24, 128:19,

130:14, 130:23

meant

31:5, 56:5,

57:23, 69:24,

72:9, 75:5,

95:21

media

5:1, 63:6,

76:19

meeting

10:5, 10:11

memorize

76:25

memory

14:21, 19:12,

22:18, 26:12,

26:18, 98:24,

112:20, 117:1

mention

75:11, 75:17,

75:18, 75:22,

126:4

mentioned

15:7, 31:8,

57:2, 59:2, 97:8

message

41:13, 46:16,

47:2, 47:3,

86:12, 94:21,

95:9, 95:14,

95:20, 98:5,

98:11, 98:18,

101:25, 111:3,

113:24, 115:21,

115:22, 115:23,

115:24, 116:8,

127:4, 127:5,

127:19, 128:22,

128:24, 130:22,

130:25, 132:7,

132:11, 132:13,

135:12, 135:15,

136:3, 136:5,

136:13, 136:14

messages

91:6, 98:5,

98:11, 98:18,

113:24, 115:17,

116:5, 122:24

messaging

7:12, 89:15,

90:3, 90:9,

90:10, 90:13,

90:19, 90:22,

90:25, 91:5,

91:13, 91:24,

92:8, 92:20,

93:3, 93:6,

93:8, 93:11,

93:14, 93:18,

94:8, 94:14,

95:17, 96:4,

96:10, 96:15,

97:23, 98:14,

101:24, 102:11,

102:13, 102:24

method

38:9, 38:22,

57:22, 65:14,

65:16, 66:11

methods

38:7, 38:15,

40:13, 57:23,

65:13, 66:10

michelle

1:25, 6:1,

140:10, 141:6

middle

39:11, 63:1,

65:23, 107:18

might

18:20, 21:3,

21:4, 21:5,

21:8, 22:1,

38:1, 42:17,

52:5, 54:6,

55:22, 57:16,

63:21, 71:16,

74:5, 82:20,

88:21, 94:14,

95:3, 95:4,

106:13, 108:15,

108:24, 127:10

mind

9:17, 9:24,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 159

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 161 of 178 PageID #: 4018
12:16, 14:25,

15:16, 15:18,

26:3, 26:24,

31:15, 32:11,

57:14, 60:4,

61:18, 61:21,

62:5, 95:22,

97:20, 103:5,

122:10, 122:14

mine

75:15

minor

13:1

minute

62:6, 84:20,

120:22

minutes

39:11, 76:22,

136:20, 136:22

misunderstood

134:20

mit

63:6

mixture

125:23, 126:14

mobile

51:11, 66:13

modification

105:6

modified

71:3, 101:14

modifier

72:20, 92:24

modifies

41:18, 42:7,

42:12, 71:15,

72:16, 72:24,

73:3

modify

42:10

modifying

71:6, 71:20,

72:2, 72:25,

93:3, 93:6,

93:7, 93:8

moment

38:18

monitor

5:9, 52:2

monitoring

51:20, 65:14,

66:11, 81:14

months

8:19

more

6:22, 6:23,

8:19, 9:3, 10:9,

14:2, 21:3,

23:17, 23:21,

23:23, 25:14,

26:8, 26:14,

26:22, 28:21,

30:12, 31:2,

31:3, 32:23,

39:1, 42:15,

42:20, 43:7,

43:16, 60:4,

67:20, 69:5,

76:22, 79:25,

90:20, 96:10,

96:16, 96:24,

105:19, 108:1,

122:13, 129:13

morning

6:13

most

104:18, 105:20

mostly

20:13, 25:12,

32:21, 104:16

much

15:19, 86:6,

112:19

multiple

23:19, 38:7,

38:14, 39:3,

39:4, 39:21,

39:24, 40:21,

41:3, 41:23,

44:6, 44:13,

44:21, 45:10,

45:18, 45:24,

46:8, 46:12,

46:20, 47:7,

47:15, 51:22,

74:2, 118:25,

119:12, 119:19

must

22:3, 118:22,

119:25, 121:4,

121:23

mutual

82:24

mutually

121:15, 122:5

myself

65:12

N

nail

85:13, 85:15

name

6:14, 17:20,

30:11, 63:22

named

63:2

narrow

42:20, 42:22

narrowed

42:13

narrower

71:24, 71:25,

73:9, 73:14,

73:17, 93:11,

93:19

narrowing

42:16, 72:3

narrows

40:5

ne

2:16, 2:24

nearby

19:14

nearly

117:1

necessarily

108:12, 133:21

need

14:10, 39:8,

50:8, 130:5,

135:4, 136:20

needed

76:20, 105:24

needs

55:24

neither

140:16

network

47:3, 47:4,

54:12, 102:16,

102:23, 103:2,

103:7, 103:9,

103:12, 103:13,

103:15, 103:19,

103:21, 103:22,

104:2, 104:8,

104:14, 104:21,

105:6, 105:18,

107:3, 107:5,

107:11, 107:23,

108:4, 108:7,

108:13, 108:15,

108:20, 109:2,

109:11, 109:13,

109:15, 109:20,

109:24, 110:2,

110:4, 110:21,

110:22, 111:3,

117:5, 117:10,

127:5, 127:6,

127:19, 128:22,

128:24, 130:21,

136:4, 136:5

networked

103:11

networking

103:11, 103:15,

104:23, 105:11,

105:12, 105:15

networks

18:11

new

117:14

next

11:20, 23:11,

34:5, 42:23,

43:13, 44:1,

46:15, 89:10,

90:24, 102:14,

114:22, 117:20

nice

99:23

nine

22:10

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 160

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 162 of 178 PageID #: 4019
normal

128:13

notary

139:20

notation

53:11

noted

52:15, 100:16

notes

136:21

nothing

9:17, 12:16,

13:5, 15:16,

15:18, 26:3,

26:24, 31:15,

40:5, 57:13,

58:8, 60:4,

61:18, 61:21,

62:5, 73:22,

75:8, 95:22,

97:20, 109:14,

130:22, 137:11

notice

38:5, 63:20

notification

84:24, 85:7,

85:18, 85:22,

86:2, 86:10,

86:11, 88:4,

89:2

noun

129:3

number

3:27, 3:30,

3:34, 5:2, 5:6,

14:1, 14:3,

14:10, 30:8,

49:12, 50:1,

50:2, 55:7,

63:13, 63:15,

63:25, 64:6,

64:7, 64:8,

94:14, 115:21,

115:22, 115:23,

115:24

numbered

1:23

numbers

14:8, 70:2

numeral

69:18, 70:9,

74:19, 99:8

numerous

51:11

O

oath

6:16, 6:19, 7:3

objection

7:24, 12:15,

13:16, 16:5,

16:17, 17:2,

24:18, 24:25,

25:9, 25:16,

26:11, 28:17,

32:17, 33:21,

36:9, 36:15,

37:12, 40:23,

42:14, 43:9,

43:18, 44:8,

45:12, 46:22,

47:17, 52:13,

53:2, 53:16,

56:13, 56:23,

57:12, 58:12,

58:22, 60:3,

67:10, 73:19,

75:1, 78:5,

79:17, 80:13,

81:23, 83:23,

85:5, 87:22,

88:10, 93:4,

93:20, 94:23,

98:22, 99:14,

100:24, 104:25,

106:11, 106:18,

107:13, 108:21,

109:25, 114:2,

116:16, 116:23,

117:17, 120:13,

123:21, 128:9,

134:2, 134:12,

134:25, 136:15

obtain

33:11, 34:9,

34:13

odd

69:25

oddly

126:15

offer

13:10, 13:13,

16:3, 46:4,

66:3, 82:6, 83:6

offered

114:9

offering

17:5, 116:13

offers

38:8

office

141:2

offices

1:28

oh

9:4, 11:19,

24:21, 25:20,

25:25, 29:4,

30:7, 30:17,

31:7, 36:10,

36:23, 51:8,

53:24, 63:12,

63:20, 64:25,

65:10, 80:18,

85:20, 96:8,

97:3, 98:6,

106:22, 114:15,

120:19, 120:21,

121:14, 135:24

once

100:6

one

5:2, 12:24,

14:5, 16:8,

16:12, 18:8,

19:1, 20:5,

24:13, 28:6,

28:21, 30:12,

30:19, 30:23,

31:9, 36:20,

37:3, 41:8,

42:3, 43:1,

44:2, 46:16,

46:24, 47:1,

47:3, 47:9,

48:8, 50:22,

52:20, 52:25,

54:25, 57:17,

62:6, 65:14,

65:17, 65:18,

66:14, 72:22,

73:4, 76:4,

81:25, 83:19,

86:7, 89:14,

99:4, 102:15,

102:22, 103:1,

105:19, 107:24,

108:1, 112:21,

114:15, 115:21,

115:22, 119:3,

119:6, 120:16,

121:10, 121:16,

121:19, 122:18,

123:4, 127:3,

127:5, 128:6,

128:14, 128:25,

129:9, 129:15,

129:19, 129:20,

131:18, 132:11,

134:13, 135:4,

135:11

one-on-one

23:21

ones

23:19

only

7:13, 67:23,

84:12, 86:25,

90:22, 91:4,

101:20, 101:23,

119:5, 122:14,

131:20, 134:9

open

7:11, 7:13,

10:24, 11:7,

11:10, 11:15,

11:23, 21:15,

21:18, 29:5,

41:16, 42:5,

48:12, 48:14,

48:15, 49:5,

49:20, 49:21,

55:4, 62:7,

62:10, 63:17,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 161

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 163 of 178 PageID #: 4020
63:18, 72:13,

72:21, 73:5,

74:4, 80:25,

111:11, 114:25,

133:14

operating

106:1, 106:8,

108:16

operation

108:8

operations

41:15, 108:10

opine

39:15

opinion

12:21, 20:20,

40:18, 44:19,

46:5, 53:14,

56:18, 58:18,

59:8, 59:12,

59:21, 61:7,

61:11, 80:10,

82:7, 82:16,

83:6, 83:11,

83:13, 83:14,

83:21, 87:3,

87:6, 87:8,

89:13, 89:22,

90:8, 91:14,

92:11, 92:14,

92:15, 92:18,

93:14, 96:3,

96:13, 96:14,

96:15, 96:22,

98:14, 98:17,

117:24, 118:8,

120:10, 131:14,

131:18, 131:24,

132:2

opinions

8:4, 12:11,

12:13, 13:8,

13:10, 13:14,

16:3, 17:1,

17:5, 35:9,

39:14, 43:8,

46:8, 52:24,

53:23, 58:21,

78:1, 80:4,

82:11, 84:20,

91:25, 97:16,

97:19, 101:5,

114:7, 116:14,

123:18, 127:14

opposed

20:5, 24:9

oracle

64:17, 64:19

oral

1:16, 1:20,

140:6

order

11:3

ordinary

17:9, 54:8,

56:10, 56:16,

57:4, 57:25,

58:3, 58:6,

58:18, 68:12,

73:11, 94:9,

128:3, 128:8

organized

103:10

origin

33:15, 36:5

original

31:8, 33:14

originally

69:24

os

104:24, 105:2,

105:7, 105:12,

106:21

osi

104:2

other

7:11, 9:16,

9:22, 10:4,

12:19, 12:20,

15:2, 15:4,

15:14, 15:17,

16:1, 16:9,

16:13, 28:11,

28:14, 28:15,

30:23, 30:25,

31:7, 31:13,

36:20, 51:4,

52:20, 52:25,

53:6, 56:25,

61:10, 67:5,

69:7, 74:14,

76:4, 87:5,

88:16, 89:17,

90:11, 90:17,

91:11, 95:4,

101:3, 101:12,

104:4, 119:4,

119:18, 121:10,

125:1, 125:12,

126:2

others

31:9, 46:2,

60:13, 119:7,

128:6, 129:10,

129:21

otherwise

103:21, 103:23,

124:15

out

26:18, 28:5,

44:24, 61:5,

63:10, 65:10,

68:14, 71:8,

89:8, 107:22,

113:13, 118:18,

124:14, 124:16,

137:10

outside

13:11, 108:7,

109:24

over

23:22, 109:20,

125:24

overlap

27:16, 83:17

overview

50:13, 50:21

own

24:11, 34:4,

60:13

owner

24:8, 24:9,

24:16, 24:22

owners

24:2, 24:7

P

pace

21:6

page

3:2, 3:5, 3:6,

3:10, 3:19,

3:24, 4:2, 12:3,

13:24, 14:1,

14:6, 14:10,

21:22, 22:10,

22:14, 23:4,

23:7, 23:11,

26:25, 27:3,

27:5, 27:9,

28:20, 29:9,

29:10, 29:20,

30:11, 31:11,

46:18, 47:5,

48:18, 48:24,

49:10, 49:12,

49:24, 49:25,

51:9, 55:14,

62:3, 62:11,

62:12, 62:16,

62:25, 64:1,

66:19, 67:22,

68:4, 68:16,

72:6, 74:6,

81:5, 98:24,

99:4, 100:13,

117:2, 124:21,

127:1, 135:24,

138:2

pages

11:6, 48:20,

49:13, 140:13

pair

103:11, 103:15

paragraphs

19:18, 43:20,

43:22, 44:10,

44:12, 44:15,

45:19, 69:5,

75:18, 90:17,

91:18, 119:10,

119:12, 120:2,

120:4, 120:5,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 162

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 164 of 178 PageID #: 4021
127:15

paraphrase

102:5

parentheses

105:4

parenthetical

123:10, 123:14,

124:6

parker

2:31

part

10:6, 18:23,

19:2, 19:3,

20:24, 33:13,

36:18, 41:20,

51:1, 65:4,

72:23, 85:3,

91:11, 92:6,

97:16, 102:21,

105:3, 107:5,

107:24, 113:19,

123:20, 127:25,

135:11

particular

41:13, 43:4,

47:3, 47:10,

47:11, 86:21,

110:22, 110:25,

127:5, 127:19,

127:24, 128:2,

128:13, 128:17,

128:22, 128:24,

128:25, 129:2,

129:9, 129:18,

129:24, 130:5,

130:13, 130:21,

136:4, 136:14

particularly

72:12

parties

5:11, 14:14,

140:18, 140:20

parts

67:23, 68:3,

68:15, 68:17,

132:4

party's

32:2, 32:10

pass

136:18

passage

123:5

passages

125:12, 126:3

past

23:22, 77:3

patent's

130:20

patentee's

123:23

patents

9:8, 14:13,

15:20, 16:10,

16:16, 16:21,

17:1, 17:13,

19:5, 19:8,

24:11, 24:14,

27:13, 28:22,

44:25, 48:6,

50:14, 50:21,

52:18, 53:15,

56:12, 61:19,

61:23, 62:21,

67:9, 68:12,

68:20, 85:1,

94:10, 94:16,

95:7, 97:9,

109:8, 110:7

patti

63:5, 63:7

pdf

62:12, 81:7,

112:24

peachtree

2:16

peaked

63:11

penalty

7:4, 139:7

pending

16:9, 24:14,

120:20

people

20:11, 57:16,

104:18

percent

24:6

percentages

24:4

performs

54:13, 55:20,

56:2, 56:4, 56:6

perjury

7:4, 139:7

person

19:1, 19:24,

20:15, 33:24,

40:3, 45:3,

75:9, 77:11,

78:8, 78:10,

78:15, 86:20,

87:15, 87:19,

89:4, 89:6,

93:23, 94:15,

96:19, 103:19,

135:8

persons

20:2

perspective

60:6

ph

3:13, 3:16,

11:5, 12:1,

30:13

philip

2:4, 5:15, 6:14

phrase

35:12, 35:24,

36:1, 82:9,

88:3, 97:22,

125:5, 126:1,

126:7, 132:8,

132:14, 135:17

phrases

125:19, 132:4

picture

56:15

piece

55:20

pieces

8:2, 15:22,

16:2, 27:17

place

88:13

plain

54:7, 56:10,

56:15, 57:3,

57:25, 58:3,

58:6, 58:18,

73:10, 94:9,

128:7

plaintiff

1:6, 1:22, 2:3,

5:16, 6:15,

24:10, 24:16,

24:22

plan

51:17

planet

5:11, 6:2

pleading

27:22

please

5:13, 6:4,

10:23, 13:21,

21:15, 23:4,

37:22, 48:11,

49:5, 49:19,

55:3, 63:18,

66:6, 82:18,

83:3

plurality

41:8

plus

27:13

point

12:20, 35:14,

37:2, 38:20,

43:23, 44:11,

44:24, 45:17,

46:1, 46:13,

51:23, 73:23,

81:3

policies

51:20, 66:24,

66:25

policy

52:1, 52:3,

65:18, 65:19,

66:15, 81:13,

81:14

portion

100:8

portions

98:10

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 163

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 165 of 178 PageID #: 4022
portray

50:23

posita

20:21, 78:15,

84:13, 90:1

possibilities

71:5, 107:9,

108:2, 109:22,

117:11

possibility

72:22, 106:13

possible

23:18, 38:3,

38:18, 42:3,

42:4, 56:24,

58:13, 72:1,

75:24, 78:6,

87:24, 107:21,

108:23, 109:6,

109:9, 110:6,

110:11, 133:14,

134:7, 135:2

possibles

109:4

possibly

8:9, 75:4,

106:6, 136:16

posted

11:16

pr4-2

3:17, 3:22,

21:20, 22:8,

29:8

predates

85:1

prefer

13:25

prefix

41:18, 42:7,

42:12, 59:17,

70:22, 72:15,

72:24, 73:2

preliminary

3:17, 3:22,

21:21, 22:8,

29:8

preparation

9:12, 10:2,

14:12

prepare

9:5

preparing

8:22, 30:19,

30:20

present

2:29, 10:4

presentation

86:22

presenting

84:24, 85:7,

85:21, 86:2,

86:5, 86:10,

87:3, 88:4, 89:2

pretty

34:18, 37:14,

69:3, 94:12,

105:15, 108:22,

128:18

prevent

7:15

previous

46:24

primarily

104:18, 125:23,

126:15

prior

16:25, 17:4,

21:1, 61:22

priority

19:7, 19:21,

20:1, 57:2

probably

8:19, 15:23,

15:25, 18:7,

23:23, 24:6,

31:9, 35:1,

36:16, 57:15,

58:9, 58:23,

77:16, 83:25,

114:4, 116:25,

117:13

procedure

1:30

proceed

6:12

proceedings

16:10, 16:20,

137:17

process

87:16, 87:20,

88:19, 88:25,

89:2, 89:5,

122:24

processer

50:18, 111:24

processor

51:6, 51:10,

51:15, 112:6,

115:2

produced

1:21

professional

1:27, 140:12

programmer

109:5, 130:2

programming

18:23, 105:20

property

136:13

propose

74:1

proposed

14:14, 14:17,

14:19, 28:1,

32:2, 32:10,

79:24, 129:8,

135:14

prosecution

14:13, 15:20,

16:4, 97:2,

97:5, 97:18

protocols

70:5, 104:15,

104:19, 114:4

proven

21:4

provide

8:6, 38:5,

38:7, 50:13,

79:7, 104:19,

127:18

provided

10:19

provider

70:14

provisions

1:30

public

64:23, 139:20

publication

63:24, 63:25,

64:23, 67:8,

68:19

pull

133:19

pulled

10:25

pure

23:20

purport

74:1

purpose

44:23, 44:24

purposes

99:13, 100:23

pursuant

1:29

put

8:2, 34:24,

73:17, 84:2,

87:11, 118:6,

126:9

putting

29:24

pwang@raklaw

2:9

Q

qualifications

20:10

qualifies

127:18

question

13:18, 13:20,

14:16, 23:12,

24:20, 25:24,

26:14, 34:11,

37:14, 38:17,

39:12, 40:19,

40:20, 41:5,

41:17, 41:21,

41:25, 42:5,

44:20, 45:6,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 164

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 166 of 178 PageID #: 4023
46:14, 46:19,

60:21, 68:13,

68:24, 71:22,

72:14, 72:21,

73:5, 74:5,

84:18, 88:21,

89:1, 90:5,

91:20, 95:10,

96:5, 98:7,

100:10, 100:15,

107:10, 110:8,

110:19, 120:6,

120:20, 128:15,

134:20

questions

34:9, 35:2,

126:12, 137:8

quick

29:17, 99:25,

126:18

quinn

2:23, 5:23

quite

15:23, 56:25,

85:8

quote

80:8, 80:9,

105:4, 105:5,

123:10, 124:23,

124:25, 125:1,

125:25

quotes

51:12, 87:11,

126:11, 126:13

R

raise

6:4

raising

119:19

raleigh

3:26, 3:28,

3:31

range

107:8, 109:3

ratio

23:21

rd

65:5

read

21:24, 22:6,

26:3, 35:1,

54:18, 55:18,

60:7, 60:16,

63:25, 65:7,

65:9, 65:10,

66:9, 68:17,

78:8, 78:15,

86:1, 95:16,

113:16, 120:5,

124:10, 127:9

reading

15:25, 34:12,

65:12, 77:12,

117:1, 125:5,

125:6

real

126:18

realize

131:2

really

8:15, 9:1,

12:24, 15:21,

60:5, 60:13,

60:16, 68:6,

69:2, 69:9,

70:16, 86:4,

86:5, 86:18,

87:13, 94:11,

94:18, 110:7,

115:10, 115:12,

119:13, 120:6,

130:11, 130:23,

131:18

realtime

58:25, 71:14

reason

45:1, 67:23,

84:5, 86:25,

90:1, 138:2

reasonable

40:4, 40:15,

45:4, 46:11,

78:12, 78:18,

93:22, 93:25,

96:19, 129:11

reasonably

38:6, 84:14,

90:2

reasons

84:13, 90:15,

135:4

recall

8:8, 8:13,

8:21, 9:21,

17:3, 17:7,

19:21, 22:16,

25:25, 31:1,

32:20, 35:3,

59:6, 61:10,

75:13, 76:1,

80:5, 80:14,

88:14, 92:25,

94:3, 97:4,

97:13, 98:8,

98:9, 98:12,

101:13, 101:17,

101:18, 112:12,

112:16, 116:20,

125:19

receipt

47:2, 127:4,

132:6, 132:12,

133:18

receive

122:23, 133:23,

134:9, 134:18

received

67:2, 122:24,

132:18, 133:25

receives

41:13, 91:6,

101:25

recent

21:4

recess

47:25, 78:25,

126:22, 137:3

recited

58:19, 59:5

recites

41:8

recollection

26:7, 30:18,

76:3, 112:19

record

1:31, 47:22,

47:24, 48:2,

78:22, 78:24,

79:2, 99:19,

126:18, 126:21,

126:24, 137:1,

137:5, 137:15

redwood

64:17

refer

13:25, 14:8,

38:14, 50:8,

97:7, 118:4

reference

28:6, 63:2,

66:21

references

9:9, 9:13,

9:16, 16:25,

17:5, 61:25,

62:13

referencing

69:13

referred

89:21, 128:22

referring

22:23, 23:2,

31:6, 36:11,

39:22, 68:8,

76:8, 90:17,

91:9, 91:18,

92:4, 95:21,

98:18, 104:6,

105:9, 110:6,

119:5, 126:2,

132:21

refers

38:24, 103:8

refresh

30:18, 76:3

regarding

28:22, 34:20,

38:9, 101:9,

102:11, 116:19

registered

1:26, 140:12

related

16:24, 17:18,

18:1, 18:4,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 165

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 167 of 178 PageID #: 4024
19:3, 33:15,

43:11, 83:12,

83:16, 84:20,

90:13, 90:17,

91:18, 109:7,

115:18, 140:17

relates

80:17, 135:3

relating

51:2, 116:5

relative

59:18, 60:19,

70:22, 140:19

relevant

97:19, 109:7

relied

55:13

rely

21:5, 55:16,

77:5

relying

61:2

remember

8:15, 9:24,

10:12, 15:21,

20:7, 26:7,

26:16, 26:20,

26:21, 31:1,

32:22, 33:3,

34:24, 97:17,

101:16, 104:5,

104:10, 104:11,

112:13

remote

2:31, 5:10

remotely

5:12

rename

63:12

render

90:19, 96:10,

96:23

renders

96:15

repeated

28:7, 116:1

replying

121:17

report

13:8, 13:11,

13:15, 13:24,

17:9, 33:6,

33:13, 51:9,

58:10, 82:10,

82:18, 82:20,

82:25, 86:20,

87:7, 91:11,

100:13, 101:9,

114:9, 131:6,

131:15

reported

1:27

reporter

1:25, 1:27,

6:1, 6:4, 6:10,

99:17, 126:17,

140:11, 140:12

reporter's

3:7, 140:5

represent

5:14, 6:14

represented

24:1

representing

5:11, 5:19,

5:23, 6:2

represents

8:3, 34:19

request

106:7

require

110:24

required

13:19, 18:23

requiring

105:5

research

1:4, 5:3, 5:17,

13:19

resend

63:13

resolve

73:18

respect

84:16, 89:18

respective

132:7, 132:13

respond

134:18

response

100:8, 132:23,

133:7, 133:9,

133:15, 133:17,

133:22, 133:24,

133:25, 134:10,

134:18, 134:22

response-generated

132:17

responsive

41:21

rest

36:17, 61:8,

69:2, 85:24,

119:9, 119:12

results

38:8

retained

8:11

return

70:17

review

17:4, 31:24,

32:6, 67:20,

76:9

reviewed

9:7, 14:12,

15:9, 22:20,

23:2, 30:19,

30:24, 31:14,

32:14, 33:1,

76:2, 97:15

reviewing

15:19, 16:1,

31:2, 69:8,

112:16

richardson

2:15, 5:19,

5:21, 137:7

ring

64:12, 82:9

rings

32:8

road

2:24

rotate

112:24, 114:23

rough

19:21

roughly

88:6, 104:7

row

28:7, 28:8,

28:12

rows

27:18, 28:12,

28:14

rpr

141:6

rsp

1:9, 5:7

rules

1:29

ruling

84:1, 84:9

rulings

26:16

run

18:20, 40:8,

55:22

russ

2:5, 5:16

S

safe

76:13

said

23:16, 36:6,

37:20, 53:20,

66:4, 71:16,

75:5, 76:1,

92:22, 101:10,

101:17, 104:9,

104:23, 106:20,

107:25, 109:12,

121:1, 127:10,

129:10, 129:13,

129:20

sam-hw-2

3:35, 55:8

same

7:3, 11:18,

23:20, 26:14,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 166

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 168 of 178 PageID #: 4025
28:8, 29:15,

29:22, 30:8,

31:10, 34:8,

42:2, 45:6,

45:13, 46:14,

46:19, 46:23,

47:8, 55:14,

61:8, 63:14,

64:6, 64:7,

64:8, 64:19,

67:9, 67:17,

68:10, 73:8,

89:25, 90:5,

92:6, 92:14,

92:15, 92:16,

93:2, 93:15,

94:5, 105:11,

107:10, 110:10,

115:9, 115:11,

116:3, 120:16,

121:25, 122:4,

122:8

samsung

1:10, 1:11,

1:12, 5:4, 5:19,

5:23, 27:21,

28:21, 30:12,

61:16, 61:19

samsung's

3:17, 3:22,

21:20, 22:7,

28:1, 29:7

satisfied

20:9, 65:19

satisfies

65:17, 66:14

saw

31:7

saying

20:15, 36:23,

45:1, 53:10,

72:25, 82:20,

85:9, 85:13,

85:21, 95:12,

109:16, 124:2,

124:12, 130:4,

135:19

says

22:7, 30:12,

35:10, 48:18,

49:10, 49:12,

49:24, 49:25,

50:2, 52:23,

53:4, 62:16,

64:24, 65:3,

66:9, 66:20,

69:7, 75:12,

80:1, 81:10,

81:16, 82:2,

84:16, 86:4,

87:12, 91:17,

92:3, 110:20,

110:23, 111:1,

111:22, 112:4,

113:16, 114:12,

115:12, 115:21,

123:14, 124:3,

124:7, 132:6,

132:17, 132:22

scale

96:18

schools

17:19

science

17:15, 17:17,

17:22, 109:21

scope

38:6, 45:3,

59:18, 60:19,

70:22, 71:24,

75:9, 82:8,

96:20, 122:3

screen

7:10

scroll

111:15

scrolling

15:22, 16:1

seal

141:2

searches

15:23

second

22:4, 30:2,

49:12, 49:25,

54:25, 62:3,

66:1, 84:12,

111:13, 132:2

section

41:2, 44:2,

45:14, 46:2,

98:16, 119:21

sections

15:24, 19:14,

46:5

secure

51:18, 107:10,

107:12, 111:3,

111:8, 113:5,

113:7, 122:24,

132:7, 132:13

secured

106:17, 113:12,

113:22, 113:25,

117:3, 117:9

seeing

67:19

seem

60:7, 64:6,

69:23, 72:19,

72:24, 115:11,

116:4, 131:24

seemed

20:8, 57:3,

70:3

seems

25:3, 48:25,

50:23, 65:25,

77:4, 85:14,

115:9, 124:19,

135:7

seen

22:15, 22:16,

25:4, 25:13,

60:15, 64:10,

67:16, 92:24

send

10:16, 10:18,

10:20, 21:14,

29:1, 48:7,

63:11, 106:9,

106:15

sense

132:1, 134:14,

134:16

sent

8:10, 11:18,

115:17

sentence

56:6, 65:23,

66:1, 69:6,

72:12, 78:13,

84:13, 90:24,

121:1, 131:19,

131:25, 132:2,

132:22

sentences

84:12, 90:22,

91:14, 92:1,

131:23

separate

23:12, 90:14

separately

80:8

september

64:24

series

104:14

served

76:24

server

18:20, 18:21,

51:13, 55:23,

111:4, 111:6

service

18:18, 41:9,

41:14, 50:17,

51:3, 51:6,

51:10, 51:12,

51:13, 51:14,

51:15, 51:16,

51:20, 52:2,

52:7, 52:16,

52:23, 53:7,

55:21, 56:4,

56:7, 81:14,

99:9, 99:12,

100:17, 100:19,

100:21, 101:5,

111:24, 111:25,

112:6, 112:7,

115:1, 115:2

service-type

51:4

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 167

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 169 of 178 PageID #: 4026
services

18:10, 18:16,

18:17, 114:12

set

14:5, 33:19,

34:14, 35:6,

44:22, 45:19,

45:24, 46:8,

46:10, 46:19,

47:6, 104:18,

108:16, 128:10,

129:19

sets

129:17

seven

28:20, 29:10,

30:11

several

24:11, 70:1,

73:23, 79:10,

101:2, 115:20,

116:8

shaker

2:30, 5:10

shores

64:17

shorthand

1:25, 140:11

should

8:23, 11:20,

12:25, 38:9,

62:15, 75:5,

75:7, 133:11

show

53:14, 63:8,

113:5, 115:16

showing

80:5

shown

99:2

shows

51:12, 51:22,

51:24, 69:20,

81:20

sic

39:9

side

29:24

signature

3:5, 3:6,

138:1, 140:24

signature-p1kal

141:4

signed

22:12

significant

20:20, 23:15

silently

55:21

similar

20:12, 29:18,

29:25, 30:21,

48:25, 84:13,

90:1, 92:11

simplest

52:21

simply

53:18, 77:24,

80:6, 118:6,

130:7

simpson

2:31

since

12:13, 48:5,

56:22, 56:25,

58:17, 101:11,

128:21

sir

53:24

sitting

12:22, 13:7,

13:9, 26:3,

26:21, 59:7,

59:10, 60:6,

71:14, 71:21,

82:11, 95:22,

97:18, 97:20

six

27:9, 27:10,

27:13, 30:6,

30:7, 104:4

skill

17:9, 19:24,

20:15, 20:19,

40:3, 45:4,

68:12, 75:9,

77:12, 78:8,

78:10, 86:21,

87:15, 87:19,

89:4, 89:6,

93:23, 94:15,

96:19

skilled

103:19

skills

19:3, 20:8,

20:14, 20:24,

21:12, 34:4,

35:11, 60:13,

60:18, 61:6,

92:16

skipped

131:2

software

45:8, 54:13,

55:20, 56:2,

56:6, 67:4,

68:23, 105:22,

109:19, 117:12,

117:22, 118:3,

118:5, 118:9,

118:20, 118:22,

119:23, 119:24,

120:11, 121:2,

121:3, 122:18,

122:23, 123:1,

123:6, 123:14,

123:24, 124:7,

124:11, 124:13,

124:18, 124:20,

125:2, 125:8,

125:13, 125:17,

125:18, 125:22,

125:23, 126:1,

126:4, 126:5,

126:7, 126:10,

126:12, 126:14,

130:3, 130:19,

133:17

softwares

18:18

solutions

21:2

some

8:1, 8:2, 9:9,

9:11, 10:3,

10:12, 12:19,

14:22, 14:24,

15:23, 18:2,

19:3, 20:8,

20:17, 20:23,

23:18, 25:22,

27:16, 31:9,

32:4, 35:1,

38:19, 42:10,

46:4, 50:22,

51:4, 53:5,

66:10, 73:11,

76:6, 76:7,

79:23, 81:25,

87:5, 88:16,

94:13, 106:3,

111:5, 111:7,

112:1, 112:8,

118:4, 121:11,

122:22, 123:2,

123:24, 128:23,

130:5, 135:1,

136:3

someone

13:18, 21:10,

55:21, 56:4,

60:14, 95:19

someplace

66:5

something

13:6, 15:9,

17:22, 18:3,

21:4, 21:5,

23:1, 25:1,

25:3, 26:2,

38:2, 43:24,

65:25, 68:9,

72:2, 73:9,

73:13, 77:9,

85:10, 87:16,

87:20, 94:20,

95:3, 95:4,

95:8, 96:18,

98:19, 101:14,

106:7, 108:2,

108:14, 109:1,

109:12, 109:17,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 168

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 170 of 178 PageID #: 4027
110:6, 117:19,

121:7, 122:11,

128:10, 128:16,

128:17, 129:16,

129:18, 134:18

sometime

8:18

sometimes

24:6, 94:25,

116:11

somewhat

70:3

somewhere

19:18, 131:1

sorry

30:7, 37:10,

43:1, 50:1,

63:12, 66:4,

72:8, 76:17,

91:21, 120:21

sort

108:10

sounded

129:11, 129:13

sounds

32:15, 81:19,

124:1, 128:8,

133:17

source

88:8, 88:12,

88:19, 89:3,

89:7, 105:22

speak

10:1, 119:14

specialized

129:24, 130:13

specific

14:2, 37:2,

37:3, 47:14,

74:1, 79:25,

85:6, 85:16,

85:18, 86:8,

88:13, 90:21,

91:14, 91:25,

92:1, 94:17,

95:4, 95:11,

135:5, 135:9

specifically

9:25, 44:13,

57:14, 58:9,

58:15, 67:12,

80:18, 82:1,

82:15, 91:12,

91:21, 91:22,

91:23, 97:6,

97:14, 101:9,

118:8, 118:20,

122:13

specification

9:7, 40:8,

50:14, 72:13,

73:22, 90:23,

95:2, 95:25,

97:24, 98:2,

98:4, 98:10,

101:19, 123:5,

123:20, 125:21

specificity

42:16, 42:20

specified

65:18, 103:21,

103:24

specify

86:18

speculate

26:5

spend

15:19

spent

8:21, 9:11

st

2:16

stack

81:12, 81:22,

82:2, 82:4,

102:16, 102:23,

103:2, 103:7,

103:12, 103:13,

103:16, 103:19,

103:21, 103:22,

104:2, 104:8,

104:14, 104:24,

105:7, 105:12,

105:16, 105:18,

105:24, 107:3,

107:5, 107:11,

107:23, 108:4,

108:7, 108:13,

108:15, 108:20,

109:2, 109:11,

109:13, 109:15,

109:24, 110:21,

110:22, 114:12,

117:5, 117:10,

124:23

stacks

108:4

stand

8:4

standard

33:8, 97:7,

103:13, 104:2,

105:15, 108:3

standards

33:19, 34:14

stands

105:19

start

8:16, 14:6,

124:4, 132:10

started

61:5

starting

29:20

starts

53:24, 117:24

state

1:26, 5:14,

17:9, 33:8,

139:21, 140:1,

140:11

stated

1:30, 101:12,

131:18, 140:13

statement

12:10, 18:15,

38:12, 54:17,

56:1, 60:10,

60:23

states

1:1, 5:5,

28:21, 125:21

stenotype

1:28

stephanie

64:13

still

60:6, 85:6,

85:14, 85:22,

86:19, 90:12,

96:6, 120:17

stipulation

82:24

stop

107:17

street

2:16

strike

50:1, 91:22

stronger

118:14

structure

112:6

students

20:12, 20:13

sub

110:16

subject

7:3

submitted

7:19, 11:13,

12:2, 12:5,

12:14, 140:23

subscribed

139:14, 141:1

subsection

42:25, 43:4,

47:1, 110:16,

127:2

subset

65:15, 66:13

suggest

45:15

suggested

20:7

suggests

67:17, 68:5,

68:18, 71:16,

122:18

suite

2:25

sullivan

2:23

sum

81:15

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 169

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 171 of 178 PageID #: 4028
summarized

87:4

summarizes

87:2, 131:21

summary

59:19, 87:8

sunwoo

2:14, 5:20

supporting

20:20

supposed

32:13

sure

9:2, 9:4,

11:14, 22:4,

22:7, 24:19,

32:11, 32:18,

34:13, 40:7,

48:13, 52:14,

62:8, 68:15,

69:22, 70:19,

73:1, 79:18,

79:20, 82:13,

82:19, 83:24,

85:25, 95:8,

96:5, 104:13,

105:1, 110:8,

111:18, 112:18,

116:10, 120:5,

120:9, 123:22,

131:7, 131:21,

133:16, 134:13,

136:8, 136:24

suspect

7:25, 31:7,

34:17, 36:1,

82:14

sworn

1:22, 6:3, 6:8,

139:14, 141:1

sync

11:1, 11:23

syncing

107:24

system

38:15, 40:12,

51:5, 57:22,

79:24, 87:21,

88:8, 88:17,

105:15, 106:2,

106:8, 108:16,

114:4, 133:18,

133:23, 134:1,

134:5, 134:6,

134:8, 134:21,

134:23, 135:2,

135:7, 136:2,

136:6, 136:11,

136:12

systems

17:14, 18:1,

18:2, 18:5,

38:16, 57:22,

104:21, 109:20

T

table

23:8, 27:1,

27:8, 28:5,

28:13, 30:1,

30:2, 30:3, 30:6

tables

22:17, 27:12,

28:8, 29:20,

30:22, 32:24,

76:7

take

53:4, 110:17,

136:21

taken

1:22, 26:18,

47:25, 78:25,

126:22, 137:3,

140:19

taking

120:22

talk

47:9, 50:17,

70:18, 94:8,

126:10

talked

15:10, 71:1,

92:23, 94:1,

94:2

talking

9:11, 37:8,

39:20, 68:11,

72:11, 72:12,

83:18, 100:11,

107:6, 119:15,

122:22, 126:14,

130:1, 130:9,

130:24, 131:24,

134:5

talks

115:19, 135:11

tasks

20:12

teach

86:18

teaches

91:4, 101:23

team

19:2

tech

2:31

technical

33:24, 100:7

technically

70:4

technologies

21:2, 104:14,

104:19

technology

10:12, 21:7,

21:8, 21:9

telephone

2:8, 2:18,

2:27, 66:13

tell

31:12, 39:19,

41:4, 71:21,

86:6, 87:13,

122:15

tells

75:9

template

8:8, 8:9

ten

76:19, 136:22

ten-minute

136:21

terminate

106:10, 106:14,

106:25, 107:12,

107:15, 107:19,

109:23, 110:1

terminated

110:20, 110:21,

110:25, 117:5,

117:9

terminating

106:16

terms

3:34, 9:22,

12:20, 17:16,

21:11, 23:10,

24:5, 25:15,

25:22, 26:8,

26:15, 26:22,

27:6, 27:10,

27:14, 27:17,

27:18, 27:20,

28:1, 28:15,

30:2, 30:3,

30:4, 30:6,

30:7, 30:9,

32:5, 39:14,

40:13, 44:16,

44:25, 45:2,

46:2, 50:22,

50:25, 51:7,

53:20, 55:7,

55:13, 57:14,

117:13

testified

6:8, 6:19,

22:19, 23:17,

56:20, 84:19

testify

28:22

testifying

7:4, 7:16

testimony

7:3, 23:19,

33:1, 34:21,

88:17, 140:18

texas

1:2, 1:26, 5:6,

140:1, 140:12,

141:7

text

33:14, 34:17,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 170

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 172 of 178 PageID #: 4029
116:10

th

1:23, 2:6,

3:20, 3:25, 5:8,

11:5, 21:23,

22:11, 22:12,

22:14, 29:11,

64:24, 141:2

thank

5:25, 6:10,

10:14, 21:13,

45:5, 48:4,

55:25, 65:21,

79:5, 127:12,

136:19, 137:8

themselves

5:14

theory

128:11

thereby

105:5

therefore

21:2, 46:12

therein

68:17

thing

13:1, 26:13,

37:3, 42:2,

52:21, 61:7,

61:8, 68:2,

73:8, 86:7,

93:15, 105:11,

116:3, 122:4

things

15:24, 22:17,

26:17, 30:23,

32:20, 38:23,

38:24, 39:2,

51:4, 70:5,

92:4, 94:14,

95:16, 101:3,

101:12, 108:11,

109:4, 118:23,

119:25, 121:4,

121:9, 121:12,

121:13, 121:24,

122:1, 122:12,

122:15, 129:18,

133:9

thinking

7:16, 33:23

third

30:3, 55:15,

62:3

thought

14:4, 59:10,

69:24, 120:21

thoughts

8:3, 12:19,

20:16

three

6:22, 18:9,

20:3, 20:5,

20:21, 25:14,

26:8, 27:12,

28:8, 30:4,

31:2, 31:3,

48:7, 50:21,

53:15, 54:21,

56:14, 56:16,

62:12, 62:25,

81:7, 81:8,

81:9, 97:9,

111:14, 111:20,

119:9

three-page

3:32, 55:6

through

3:35, 15:22,

16:1, 35:2,

41:10, 45:20,

48:8, 55:8,

59:10, 74:12,

84:24, 85:7,

85:22, 86:2,

86:11, 88:4,

88:8, 88:12,

88:13, 89:3

throughout

45:15

time

5:9, 9:11,

11:18, 15:19,

19:10, 19:24,

47:11, 47:24,

48:2, 48:8,

56:19, 57:7,

67:19, 69:23,

77:12, 78:24,

79:2, 99:19,

105:21, 126:21,

126:24, 137:2,

137:5, 137:15

times

6:21, 6:23,

36:7, 73:23,

95:4, 99:3

title

21:25, 22:5,

22:6, 22:7,

62:19, 65:7

today

5:10, 6:1,

6:17, 7:2, 7:17,

8:2, 9:12, 10:4,

13:9, 26:4,

40:18, 56:22,

57:9, 57:11,

59:25, 60:6,

64:3, 71:14,

71:21, 73:24,

80:15, 82:16,

82:22

today's

5:8

together

12:25, 34:22,

34:25

took

136:3

top

42:24, 75:12,

80:18, 88:14,

95:15, 98:6,

104:3, 104:5,

104:10, 104:13,

116:9, 135:24

total

23:20, 24:5,

27:13, 27:19

traffic-shaping

81:13

transcript

140:22

transfer

104:20

transmission

107:17, 132:6,

132:12, 132:18,

132:24, 132:25,

133:7, 133:9,

133:14, 133:18,

133:19, 133:23,

134:9, 134:10,

134:22

transmitted

67:1

transport

114:12

tricky

122:8

triggers

46:17, 47:2,

127:4, 130:25,

132:12, 135:12,

135:15

trouble

14:9

true

11:11, 12:5,

48:21, 48:22,

49:1, 49:15,

50:3, 55:11,

59:25, 121:8,

139:8, 140:13

truly

40:9

truthfully

7:16

try

36:24, 37:4,

71:13, 76:25,

98:13, 120:23

trying

20:10, 35:20,

38:20, 40:11,

44:16, 45:16,

46:3, 88:23,

98:13, 104:4,

120:14, 122:8,

130:2, 130:18,

132:1

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 171

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 173 of 178 PageID #: 4030
turn

13:21, 22:10,

23:4, 26:25,

27:8, 31:17,

33:5, 34:5,

50:9, 50:10,

53:22, 59:12,

62:11, 62:16,

65:21, 66:18,

74:6, 80:20,

82:17, 83:3,

89:10, 99:1,

111:9, 131:5,

136:22

turnbull

1:17, 1:21,

3:3, 3:13, 3:16,

5:3, 6:7, 6:14,

7:19, 10:14,

11:5, 11:8,

12:1, 12:4,

12:9, 21:13,

21:24, 23:13,

30:13, 39:9,

40:20, 44:19,

45:5, 48:3,

48:23, 49:16,

50:5, 50:10,

65:21, 79:4,

99:21, 120:18,

126:25, 136:19,

137:14, 139:11,

139:16, 140:7

turnbull's

11:3, 49:9,

49:23

turning

62:25

two

8:19, 10:8,

10:9, 10:20,

20:5, 26:15,

26:22, 38:22,

38:24, 39:1,

39:3, 39:4,

43:7, 43:16,

43:22, 62:16,

90:22, 91:14,

92:1, 104:21,

109:20, 118:9,

122:1, 129:17,

132:3, 132:4

type

17:25, 21:7,

22:22, 26:19,

31:5, 31:10,

42:17, 60:14,

67:5, 69:7,

85:18, 115:9,

115:11, 128:24

typed

7:25

types

77:25, 85:17,

108:24, 115:14

U

u

62:16

uh-huh

114:14

unable

88:18

uncertain

35:22

uncertainty

35:13, 35:15,

35:19, 35:24,

36:25, 37:6,

37:8, 37:10

unclear

47:19, 59:17,

70:21, 103:10,

118:20, 121:2,

132:23

under

6:16, 6:19,

7:3, 8:3, 139:7,

141:1

undersigned

139:15, 140:10

understand

6:16, 7:1,

24:15, 24:21,

25:5, 33:19,

36:7, 40:11,

40:15, 40:17,

44:16, 44:18,

51:2, 57:23,

58:16, 62:20,

78:9, 78:17,

88:3, 88:23,

96:20, 113:17,

120:6, 120:8,

120:15, 133:4,

135:2

understanding

19:10, 19:23,

20:25, 21:2,

21:6, 33:11,

33:24, 34:2,

34:9, 34:14,

34:16, 34:20,

35:5, 35:12,

36:20, 52:19,

73:17, 74:2,

76:11, 81:18,

111:2, 113:22,

114:17, 115:6,

125:10, 130:18

understood

24:19, 41:24,

45:3, 57:20,

118:4

unfortunately

37:13

unique

88:1

unit

128:6, 129:9,

129:20

united

1:1, 5:5

universally

72:4

unknown

71:18

unless

13:12, 103:21,

103:23, 121:12

unrelated

67:24

until

59:25, 68:1

updating

111:19

urquhart

2:23

usage

67:3

use

35:20, 53:11,

57:16, 61:17,

61:20, 61:23,

90:24, 98:2,

115:11, 122:5,

126:1, 126:6,

128:20, 129:6,

130:20

useable

104:18

user

58:11, 84:24,

85:7, 85:22,

86:2, 86:11,

88:4, 108:12

uses

98:4, 98:11

using

36:24, 61:5,

68:10, 82:21,

89:25, 107:2,

107:5, 129:23,

130:12

usually

55:21

ut

17:21

V

vague

130:4

valid

24:17, 24:24

variance

17:24

various

80:7, 105:23

verifiable

81:13

version

29:14, 48:19

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 172

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 174 of 178 PageID #: 4031
versus

5:4

via

1:28, 7:2,

10:11, 10:21,

122:24

video

5:9, 10:12,

136:23

videoconference

1:29

videographer

2:30, 5:1,

5:10, 5:25,

47:23, 48:1,

76:18, 78:23,

79:1, 99:18,

126:20, 126:23,

137:1, 137:4,

137:9, 137:13

videotaped

1:16, 1:20,

5:2, 140:6

view

35:14, 37:17,

51:5

virtues

130:7

vitae

3:15

vocabulary

71:8, 121:12

voice

5:13

vs

1:8

W

walked

74:12

walks

88:13

wang

2:4, 3:4, 5:15,

6:13, 6:14, 8:6,

10:18, 10:23,

12:17, 13:21,

16:8, 16:19,

17:4, 21:19,

24:21, 25:5,

25:13, 25:18,

26:14, 28:20,

29:6, 32:25,

34:1, 36:12,

36:19, 37:17,

40:24, 42:19,

43:12, 43:21,

44:11, 45:17,

46:25, 47:20,

47:21, 48:3,

48:11, 49:5,

49:8, 49:14,

49:19, 49:22,

52:17, 53:9,

53:22, 55:2,

56:18, 57:5,

57:18, 58:16,

59:3, 60:9,

63:17, 67:13,

73:25, 75:2,

76:17, 76:21,

76:23, 78:7,

78:21, 79:3,

79:21, 80:16,

82:6, 84:4,

85:9, 87:25,

88:15, 93:10,

94:1, 95:6,

98:25, 99:20,

101:4, 105:3,

106:15, 106:22,

107:20, 109:1,

110:3, 114:3,

116:18, 117:3,

117:20, 120:17,

123:23, 126:17,

126:19, 126:25,

128:12, 134:3,

134:15, 135:10,

136:17, 136:24,

137:12

want

21:5, 36:19,

39:9, 40:19,

65:10, 65:24,

80:20, 81:1,

100:12, 109:13,

110:14, 111:21,

112:24, 113:4,

118:7, 119:16,

119:18, 132:4

wanted

75:6, 99:7,

101:1

way

16:8, 16:12,

36:20, 36:24,

42:10, 52:20,

52:25, 66:25,

68:10, 76:4,

98:12, 101:8,

117:19, 120:23,

126:9, 128:21,

129:24, 130:13

ways

95:17, 105:22

we're

7:1, 11:1,

14:5, 37:5,

53:20, 57:6,

57:11, 73:21,

75:4, 82:21,

83:17, 85:12,

89:1, 103:7,

104:16, 107:24,

126:2, 130:24

webex

10:13

websites

67:3

welcome

48:3, 79:3,

99:20, 126:25

well-documented

104:18

well-known

84:25, 104:17

whatever

119:9

wherein

43:4, 46:16,

47:1, 83:7,

127:3, 131:11,

132:11, 135:11,

135:23

whether

16:9, 41:17,

42:5, 51:3,

52:25, 72:14,

73:7, 78:10,

78:17, 84:15,

86:21, 87:15,

87:20, 88:24,

89:4, 99:11,

113:11, 113:16,

118:20, 118:21,

119:23, 119:24,

121:2, 121:3,

133:6

whole

41:1, 42:17,

68:2, 90:11,

91:16, 92:2,

92:3

wide

107:8

wilshire

2:6

wireless

66:12, 66:22,

67:2

within

54:4, 69:21,

74:7, 74:19,

77:2, 110:20,

110:21, 110:25,

117:5, 117:9,

126:11, 130:24

without

29:24, 67:11,

67:20, 69:1,

69:8, 80:1,

98:20

witness

1:21, 5:20,

5:24, 6:2, 6:6,

7:25, 12:16,

13:17, 16:6,

16:18, 17:3,

21:17, 24:19,

25:1, 25:10,

25:17, 26:12,

Transcript of Dr. Don R. Turnbull, Jr.

Conducted on May 28, 2024 173

PLANET DEPOS

888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 175 of 178 PageID #: 4032
2

8:18,29:4,

32:18,33:22,

36:10,36:16,

37:13,42:15,

43:10,43:19,

44:9,45:13,

46:23,47:18,

52:14,53:3,

53:17,56:14,

56:24,57:13,

58:13,58:23,

60:4,67:11,

73:20,78:6,

79:18,80:14,

81:24,83:24,

85:6,87:23,

88:11,93:5,

93:21,94:24,

98:23,99:15,

100:25,105:1,

106:12,106:19,

107:14,108:22,

110:1,116:17,

116:24,117:18,

120:14,123:22,

128:10,134:13,

135:1,136:16,

136:18,136:25,

139:15,140:23,

140:24

word

15:12,35:21,

36:6,37:8,

38:25,52:9,

53:12,56:21,

57:8,57:19,

57:24,58:6,

71:2,74:10,

90:19,92:19,

92:24,93:3,

93:6,93:7,

93:8,94:2,

94:3,94:8,

94:12,95:20,

96:3,96:6,

96:9,96:15,

113:7,113:8,

116:7,116:8,

121:17,121:20,

122:5,128:18,

129:2,130:11,

130:13,130:14

wording

134:20

words

15:24,71:8,

72:2,116:11,

117:15,118:10

work

8:11,8:19,

18:20,20:21,

24:5,26:19,

60:15,70:6,

108:3,117:19

worked

20:11,25:20,

25:21,26:2,

26:17,34:17,

34:22

working

8:16

works

130:19

world

71:8,104:15

wouldn't

16:23,76:25,

121:11,124:15

written

35:16,53:18,

59:9,116:18

wrong

66:1

wrote

7:22,122:9Y

ya

136:25

yeah

11:9,15:1,

19:6,20:23,

23:15,25:25,

26:5,26:16,

28:18,30:7,

34:24,36:19,

41:1,43:21,

54:19,62:20,

63:19,66:6,

73:10,76:5,

78:20,81:24,

81:25,89:12,

91:3,93:5,

94:4,96:13,

99:4,105:8,

105:13,107:8,

109:3,109:16,

119:13,119:15,

120:14,128:20,

129:4,134:3,

135:24,135:25

year

77:3

years

18:10,20:4,

20:5,20:21,

23:22,57:15,

77:17,104:17

yellow

74:9,74:16,

74:19,77:22,

79:10,80:8,

80:11

yourself

76:9

Z

zone

35:13,35:21,

35:24,36:25,

37:1,37:5

zoom

1:16,1:20,

1:28,7:2,7:11,

7:13,10:11,

10:13,63:12,

140:6 . .138 3:5 .139 3:6 .140 3:7 .63:4

0

00103

1:9,5:7

00215498

3:35,55:8

0218395

4:3,63:25

03

1:24,5:9,

78:24

04

47:24

1

14

8:18,78:24,

100:11

10

3:12,3:15,

3:19,3:24,9:3,

12:3,21:22,

22:14,29:9,

39:10,79:2

100

51:7,51:10,

51:15,74:20

104

66:22,67:2

106

66:22,67:2

108

66:22,67:2

11

1:24,5:9,

51:9,66:19,

79:2,126:21,

131:10,135:10

114

81:5

116

100:11

117

14:13,27:1,

27:6,30:2,

49:15,89:14,

TranscriptofDr. DonR. Turnbull, Jr. Conducted on May 28, 2024

174

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Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 176 of 178 PageID #: 4033
9

1:23,96:1,

100:12,100:16,

100:22,102:10,

111:9

1180

2:16

12

2:6,47:24,

48:2,141:8

1200

2:24

122

51:14

12424

2:6 1323:1

0,27:13,

30:2,127:3,

135:22

15

39:10,46:18,

74:6,77:17,

99:4,100:13

1500

2:25

16

50:17,51:9,

51:12,53:14,

74:16,77:21,

80:17,99:1,

100:11,100:15

1638

51:13

1653

51:13,51:17

1691

51:15,52:7,

53:8,99:8,

100:17,100:19,

101:11

18

126:24

19

3:25,13:22,

13:23,14:7,

14:11,15:3,

29:11,31:17,

31:20,64:24,

83:7,83:21,

124:21

192

14:13,27:9,

30:4,45:7,

50:4,117:21,

127:8,127:11,

127:12,131:10

195

48:20

196

127:2,127:11

2

24

9:10,99:19

20

11:6,19:18,

47:5,127:1

200

49:13,70:1,

98:24,117:2

2005

64:24,65:5

2006

4:3,63:25

2008

56:19,59:22

2009

19:9,56:19,

59:22

2010

19:9

2024

1:18,1:24,

3:20,3:25,5:8,

11:5,21:23,

22:12,29:11,

60:1,139:17,

140:8,141:2

204

69:18,70:10

21

2:16,3:17

23

1:9,5:7,65:5

24

28:15,111:22,

111:23,112:12,

112:22,113:4,

113:10,115:17,

116:19

2408

113:9

2410

114:13

2420

114:14,114:16

2428

113:10

25

33:5,111:22,

112:4,112:5,

112:12,114:24,

115:16,115:19,

116:13,116:19,

141:8

2502

115:2

2510

115:21

2522

115:3

26

34:6,34:10,

34:14,38:4,

99:19

27

27:20,28:1

2756

2:18

28

1:18,1:23,

3:20,5:8,

21:23,22:11,

22:12,22:14,

69:5,140:8

29

3:22,11:5,

20:17,66:19,

69:3,69:12,

70:7,79:7,

79:9,79:16,

79:21,80:2,

80:5,80:7,

80:16,81:2,

81:10,81:20

2:-cv

1:9,5:7

3

31:2

4,49:24,

126:21,126:24,

137:2,137:5,

137:15,137:17

30

17:8,18:9,

19:14,19:19,

84:17,84:21,

89:18,89:22,

90:7,91:11,

92:4,141:2

30309

2:17

30328

2:26

31

50:11,50:16,

51:9,141:8

310

2:8 3239:1

6,40:1,

53:25

33

53:24,54:15,

55:16,56:1

34

59:13,59:15,

60:10,60:22,

70:18,70:20,

137:2

35

41:6,72:9

36

6:23,23:17,

23:20

37

72:6,72:7

38

75:23,79:6,

80:4

39

74:7

TranscriptofDr. DonR. Turnbull, Jr. Conducted on May 28, 2024

175

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3

95

64:8

4

40

78:3,104:17

404

2:18

406

48:17

415

2:27

42

1:24,43:3,

43:11,82:17,

83:4,83:10,

84:12,137:5,

137:15

43

43:11,137:17

44

43:13,43:20,

89:11,89:16,

91:15,95:24,

96:9,97:1,

98:1,101:22

45

43:20

46

42:24,44:2,

102:17,105:4,

110:16

48

3:26

49

3:27,45:7,

45:19,117:25,

118:3,118:19,

120:24,121:22

5

50

3:30,23:23,

23:25,119:14,

122:17

500

3:35,55:8

51

119:14,123:4,

124:22

52

119:14,125:11,

126:9

53

45:20

54

46:15,131:5,

131:15,131:25,

132:22

55

3:32

56

42:24,47:1,

127:15,127:17,

136:1

57

127:15

6

600

2:24

64

4:3 648

6

2:27

7

7093

141:7

724

2:18

733

14:13,23:8,

30:1,48:17,

48:22,49:2,

62:7,62:22,

64:5,67:14,

80:20,83:7,

89:23,90:7,

91:12,91:21,

92:4

7474

2:8

8

8,406,733

3:26,48:17

80

24:6

826

2:8 875 2:2

7

9

9,192,117

3:27,49:12

9,615,192

3:30,50:2

9,615,198

50:1

90025

2:7

TranscriptofDr. DonR. Turnbull, Jr. Conducted on May 28, 2024

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Case 2:23-cv-00103-JRG-RSP Document 94-8 Filed 05/30/24 Page 178 of 178 PageID #: 4035