UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

 COMMODITY FUTURES TRADING COMMISSION

 PUBLIC ROUNDTABLE

 Washington, D.C.

 Thursday, August 9, 2012
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 1 PARTICIPANTS:

 2 GARY BARNETT, DSIO, CFTC, Moderator

 3 KEVIN PICCOLI, DSIO, CFTC

 4 CAMDEN NUNERY OCE, CFTC

 5 BOB WASSERMAN DCR, CFTC

 6 Panel 1

 7 SAM TELZER, PricewaterhouseCoopers

 8 ANN CHEESEMAN, Ernst & Young

 9 MIKE JAMROZ, Deloitte & Touche

 10 RICH FLOWERS, Grant Thornton

 11 JOHN HAGUE, McGladrey

 12 MARK HOLLOWAY, SIFMA/Goldman Sachs

 13 BILL TIRRELL, SIFMA/Merrill Lynch

 14 EILEEN FLAHERTY, Newedge

 15 YVONNE DOWNS, Jefferies

 16 HOWARD ROTHMAN, Vision Financial Markets, LLC

 17 WILLIAM DE LEON, PIMCO

 18 ANNE BAGAN, CME Group

 19 DAN DRISCOLL, NFA

 20 ANAND RAMTAHAL, FINRA

 21 STEVE RICHARDS, PCAOB

 22 RON FILLER, New York Law School
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 1 PARTICIPANTS (CONT'D):

 2 Panel 2

 3 MARK HOLLOWAY, SIFMA/Goldman Sachs

 4 BILL TIRRELL, SIFMA/Merrill Lynch

 5 ALESSANDRO COCCO, JP Morgan

 6 EILEEN FLAHERTY, Newedge

 7 YVONNE DOWNS, Jeffries

 8 HOWARD ROTHMAN, Vision Financial Markets, LLC

 9 WILLIAM C. THUM, ICI/The Vanguard Group

 10 CHARLEY COOPER, State Street Global Markets,

 (eExchange)

 11

 DAN DRISCOLL, NFA

 12

 RON FILLER, New York Law School

 13

 WARREN DAVIS, Sutherland Asbill & Brennan

 14

 TODD KEMP, National Grain and Feed Association

 15

 CHRISTINE AYOTTE-BRENNAN, Fidelity Management and

 16 Research

 17 NEVIS BREGASI, ICI/MFS Investment Mgmt

 18 DAVID YERES, CIEBA/Clifford Chance

 19 MIKE DAWLEY, FIA/Goldman Sachs

 20 MAUREEN BURKE, FIA/BAML

 21 KEVIN FOLEY, FIA/Katten Muchin Rosenman

 22 WALT LUKKEN, FIA
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 1 PARTICIPANTS (CONT'D):

 2 ROSS PARK, Barclays Capital Inc.

 3 KIM TAYLOR, CME Group

 4 Panel 3

 5 ALESSANDRO COCCO, JP Morgan

 6 HOWARD ROTHMAN, Vision Financial Markets, LLC

 7 WILLIAM C. THUM, ICI/The Vanguard Group

 8 CHARLEY COOPER, State Street Global Markets

 9 DAN DRISCOLL, NFA

 10 RON FILLER, New York Law School

 11 WARREN DAVIS, Sutherland Asbill & Brennan

 12 TODD KEMP, National Grain and Feed Association

 13 BOB RICHARDSON, RGRichardson Consulting

 14 CHRISTINE AYOTTE-BRENNAN, Fidelity Management and

 15 Research

 16 NEVIS BREGASI, ICI/MFS Investment Mgmt

 17 DAVID YERES, CIEBA/Clifford Chance

 18 STEVE HURST, Merchants Data Repository LLC

 19 MIKE DAWLEY, FIA/Goldman Sachs

 20 CHRIS PERKINS, Citi

 21 MAUREEN BURKE, FIA/BAML

 22
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 1 PARTICIPANTS (CONT'D):

 2 KEVIN FOLEY, Katten Muchin Rosenman

 3 WALT LUKKEN, FIA

 4 JOHN L. ROE, BTR Trading Group, Inc.

 5 KIM TAYLOR, CME Group

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 1 P R O C E E D I N G S

 2 (9:32 a.m.)

 3 MR. BARNETT: Good morning, everyone.

 4 Welcome to the Staff's Public Roundtable to

 5 discuss Customer Protection Requirements for

 6 Futures Commission Merchants. This Roundtable

 7 follows, and is in addition to, the Public

 8 Roundtable we held at the end of February,

 9 beginning of March. And our objective today is to

 10 gather public input on a variety of issues and

 11 ideas to further protect customers.

 12 In terms of specific topics today, we'll

 13 have three panels. Our first panel is broken into

 14 two parts. First we will focus on the SRO

 15 requirements for examinations of FCMs. And second

 16 we'll look at the CFTC's oversight of SRO

 17 examination programs, and in both of those topics,

 18 we will be looking at the role of the independent

 19 CPA whose is engaged by the FCM in the examination

 20 process.

 21 Our second panel will focus on various

 22 questions staff has for our panelists regarding
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 1 customer protection proposals that we've been

 2 working on.

 3 And our third panel of the day will take

 4 stock of the various alternative models for seg.

 5 That are being discussed in the industry. A

 6 discussion, evaluation of those various

 7 alternatives comparing values and feasibility

 8 comparing and contrasting, and frankly, making the

 9 participants in those efforts a little easier to

 10 find should others wish to join them.

 11 In terms of housekeeping items, the

 12 bathrooms are in the back, down the stairs, around

 13 the corner. In terms of breaks, we have one

 14 scheduled at 10:30 but we may adjust based on how

 15 the discussion in the first panel is progressing.

 16 In terms of questions from the audience,

 17 we have cards on the side over here in which you

 18 can submit questions in writing, and then those

 19 questions will be brought up to us. In fact, you

 20 can drop it in the corner next to Cam and we'll

 21 field it amongst ourselves in an appropriate time.

 22 Lunch is at 12:45. It's short. We will
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 1 begin again at 1:30. You'll be on your own.

 2 There are several restaurants around the area to

 3 run out and grab a bite.

 4 Of course, we are creating a

 5 transcription of the dialogue today. To make this

 6 work, when one of our participants is going to

 7 speak, first state your name so that we can pick

 8 it up and get it correct in the transcript.

 9 And last, because of ongoing enforcement

 10 cases, we are not going to talk about specific

 11 market events, whether it's MF Global or Peregrine

 12 or otherwise, there is really not a need to do

 13 that in order to look afresh at customer

 14 protection in this space.

 15 All right, so let's start the first

 16 panel. And by way of introduction, we know that

 17 our Oversight System is for decades that SROs are

 18 the front line regulators of FCMs. In 2000,

 19 Congress affirmed the Commission's reliance on

 20 SROs by amending section three of the Commodity

 21 Exchange Act to state:

 22 "It is the purpose of this Act to serve
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 1 the public interest through a system of effective

 2 self- regulation of trading facilities, clearing

 3 systems, market participants, and market

 4 professionals under the oversight of the

 5 Commission."

 6 So, as part of its Oversight

 7 responsibility then, SROs are required to conduct

 8 periodic examinations of their member FCM customer

 9 funds in seg. and secured accounts, and the CFTC

 10 oversees the SROs examining them for the

 11 performance of their duties.

 12 And just to get the rubric right,

 13 because SROs share the same members, to avoid

 14 subjecting FCMs to duplicative examination we have

 15 a permissive system that allows the SROs to agree

 16 how to allocate FCMs amongst them. An SRO who is

 17 allocated certain FCMs for such an examination is

 18 referred to as the DSRO for those FCMs.

 19 In any event, when we review SRO

 20 examinations, we do so on a periodic basis.

 21 Currently the CFTC does quarterly reviews of an

 22 SRO's FCM examination program in which the agency
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 1 selects a sample, a small sample, of the work

 2 papers to review, and we also do some limited

 3 scope reviews of FCMs in a for cause situation.

 4 Also, under CFTC rules FCMs must have

 5 their annual financial statements audited by an

 6 independent CPA using GAAS Standards. As part of

 7 this annual report, the independent accountant

 8 must conduct appropriate reviews and tests to

 9 identify any material inadequacies in systems and

 10 controls that could violate the Commission's

 11 Segregation or Secured Amount Requirements.

 12 So, given this two layer examination

 13 process, SROs examining FCMs and the CFTC

 14 Oversight of the SRO examination process, it makes

 15 sense to look at each of these layers with fresh

 16 eyes; which is what we're going to do now with the

 17 help of our panelists.

 18 So, before we start asking questions of

 19 our panelists, let's go around the table and for

 20 the transcript state your name, your title, and

 21 the institution you work with. I'll start. My

 22 name's Gary Barnett. I'm the director of the
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 1 CFTC's Division of Swap Dealer and Intermediary

 2 Oversight. And Cam, I'm going to go this way.

 3 MR. PICCOLI: Kevin Piccoli, Deputy

 4 Director, DSIO.

 5 MR. RICHARDS: Steve Richards, Special

 6 Advisor to the Chairman of the PCAOB.

 7 MR. RAMTAHAL: Anand Ramtahal, Senior

 8 Vice President, Department of Risk Oversight and

 9 Operational Regulation at FINRA.

 10 MR. ROTHMAN: Howard Rothman, President

 11 Vision Financial Markets FCM.

 12 MR. TELZER: Sam Telzer. I am a partner

 13 with PricewaterhouseCoopers.

 14 MR. TIRRELL: Bill Tirrell, here for

 15 SIFMA Capital Committee.

 16 MR. JAMROZ: I'm Mike Jamroz. I'm a

 17 partner at Deloitte & Touche.

 18 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'm Mark Holloway and I'm

 19 Chairman of the SIFMA Capital Committee.

 20 MR. HAGUE: Good morning. I'm John

 21 Hague. I'm a partner with McGladrey.

 22 (Recess)
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 1 MR. NUNERY: And I'm Cam Nunery. I work

 2 in the Office of the Chief Economist.

 3 MR. BARNETT: Let's wait a second and

 4 see if we can get this side of the table working.

 5 (Recess)

 6 MS. FLAHERTY: I'm Eileen Flaherty,

 7 Global Head of Compliance and Financial Crime

 8 Prevention at Newedge Group.

 9 MR. FILLER: Ronald Filler, Professor,

 10 New York Law School.

 11 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll, Chief

 12 Operating Officer, NFA.

 13 MS. DOWNS: Yvonne Downs, Global Chief

 14 Operating Officer, Jefferies Futures Division.

 15 MR. DE LEON: Bill De Leon, Managing

 16 Director PIMCO.

 17 MS. CHEESEMAN: Ann Cheeseman, Audit

 18 Partner with Ernst & Young.

 19 MS. BAGAN: Anne Bagan, Managing

 20 Director Audits, for CME Group.

 21 MR. BARNETT: Great, thank you very

 22 much. All right, so, we're going to start with
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 1 some questions. We've given you guys the

 2 questions already, but we're going to go through

 3 them and get your thoughts now. We know how

 4 you're going to answer. And some of them are

 5 basic, but you know what, we're going to start

 6 from the beginning, right? And we're going to

 7 build up from it. So, we appreciate your patience

 8 with us, and, you know, so, for instance, our

 9 first question: What's the purpose of an

 10 examination? What are we trying to accomplish?

 11 We're talking about SRO requirements for

 12 the examination of FCMs. What should they hope to

 13 accomplish and what should we not expect from an

 14 examination of an SRO?

 15 Who wants to take the first shot at it?

 16 Dan?

 17 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll, NFA. So,

 18 from NFA's perspective our objective in doing an

 19 audit of an FCM is to achieve reasonable assurance

 20 of compliance with relevant NFA and CFTC rules,

 21 and that all of the balances in the financial

 22 statements that are filed with NFA and the CFTC
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 1 are properly stated.

 2 I would point out that while our

 3 objective is to achieve reasonable assurance of

 4 compliance with CFTC and NFA rules, we don't

 5 believe that the goal is to guarantee compliance,

 6 or to ensure against violations of the rules.

 7 MR. TIRRELL: Bill Tirrell, SIFMA. I

 8 think from the industry side we look towards the

 9 -- first of all, let me just say that from the

 10 industry side we, I think we share common cause

 11 here of trying to make sure that the firms are

 12 compliant, that we are protecting clients, assets,

 13 and so on. So, we do have a shared interest in

 14 this, and we look to see if the processes,

 15 controls, within the organizations are meeting the

 16 current standards in compliance.

 17 So, we look at this, I think, more as an

 18 asset test, if you will, if we are doing what we

 19 should be doing in order to protect clients, to

 20 stay in compliance with both capital and client

 21 protection rules. So, it's kind of a check and

 22 balance, if you will, from the perspective of the
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 1 firms.

 2 I would also say that, our expectation

 3 is that examiners that have the benefit of going

 4 around to multiple firms and seeing different

 5 processes, controls, competencies, and so on, that

 6 they would be able -- that we as an industry

 7 should be able to leverage that in order to ensure

 8 that we are all meeting high standards of best

 9 practice.

 10 So, from an expectation from an industry

 11 side, I would say best practices is high

 12 expectation as far as compliance, competency,

 13 controls, and processes.

 14 MR. BARNETT: Thank you.

 15 MS. BAGAN: Gary.

 16 MR. BARNETT: Go ahead. Ron?

 17 MR. FILLER: I agree with Dan. I mean,

 18 the main purpose of an exam is all registrants

 19 including FCMs, but all other registrants are

 20 subject to not only statutory provisions, but all

 21 the regulatory provisions established by the CFTC

 22 and NFA, but there's also a further step that the
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 1 regs and the policies in the industry also impose

 2 internal standards.

 3 Meaning each FCM, each registrant have

 4 to have their own policy manuals in place, and so,

 5 part of the exam should govern not only compliance

 6 with the laws and the regulations, but making sure

 7 the individual firm's FCMs, in this case, are

 8 following their own internal policies as well.

 9 MR. BARNETT: What do we mean by "their

 10 own policies and procedures?" What standards

 11 should apply to those policies and procedures? Is

 12 it off again?

 13 Okay. Cam, could you go hit the door

 14 (inaudible). Maybe we should come back to you on

 15 that. I don't want to lose the thought on it.

 16 SPEAKER: Anne's mic is working.

 17 MR. BARNETT: Anne, go ahead.

 18 MS. BAGAN: Anne Bagan. And I also echo

 19 what Dan was saying. Our audits, our examinations

 20 are incredibly detail oriented, but I did want to

 21 remind everybody that they are, as of a point in

 22 time. So to Dan's point, it is not a guarantee
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 1 that the balance will always (off mic).

 2 And as far as CME Group, because the

 3 audit function is part of our Clearing House, we

 4 consider the whole audit function part of our risk

 5 management procedures in getting to know our firms

 6 and understanding their business expertise.

 7 (Recess)

 8 MR. RAMTAHAL: Anand Ramtahal from

 9 FINRA.

 10 MR. BARNETT: Yes, go ahead.

 11 MR. RAMTAHAL: Responding to the

 12 examination question. From our perspective the

 13 examination is an opportunity to ensure that the

 14 systems, processes, controls in place at

 15 registered broker dealers that are subject to our

 16 examination program are working as intended, and

 17 that the member has adequate resources in place to

 18 ensure that they are accomplishing compliance with

 19 federal securities laws and SRO rules and

 20 regulations. From our perspective it's also a

 21 really good opportunity to educate our members on

 22 how they can and should comply with federal
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 1 securities laws, obviously, when we think that

 2 their systems and processes are weak or deficient.

 3 MR. PICCOLI: So Anand, when you look at

 4 the policies and procedures you're actually going

 5 and testing the controls, the underlying processes

 6 themselves that are there, is that right?

 7 MR. RAMTAHAL: Yes, and that could be

 8 both qualitative and quantitative depending on

 9 what areas or reviews we're looking at.

 10 MR. BARNETT: Let me challenge that a

 11 little bit because I'm hearing -- and I think

 12 there's the focus on controls and sort of risk

 13 management orientation, not just counting

 14 obviously seg. secured capital. I mean, it's

 15 core, and basic, and obviously, hugely important,

 16 but also I'm hearing discussion about controls.

 17 To make sure that things are being operated --

 18 "working as intended" was the way somebody just

 19 said it.

 20 What's your view about the balance

 21 between the substantive, you know, counting the

 22 amounts that are there and then the risk man -- or
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 1 the control orientation to make sure that things

 2 are set up to work as intended?

 3 MS. FLAHERTY: Again Eileen Flaherty,

 4 Newedge Group. I think that you're correct.

 5 There is a balance. I don't think that I'm saying

 6 that that's not proper, to also look at the

 7 framework, and the control framework, because I

 8 think the audits do that.

 9 But again, when it gets down to it, in

 10 addition to looking at that, looking at the

 11 organization, the governance of an organization,

 12 overall how the organization is managed, that's

 13 all part of the audits too.

 14 But, also, again, there is a very, very

 15 high and heavy focus on tying out and looking at

 16 particularly, you know, the seg. and secured

 17 amounts, both from the FINRA side and again the

 18 DSRO for the CME Group in this instance.

 19 MR. BARNETT: Other reactions to that?

 20 Thoughts?

 21 MR. DE LEON: Bill De Leon, PIMCO. I

 22 agree and I think that while it's very important
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 1 to focus on the process and that the rules being

 2 imposed by the regulatory bodies, as well as the

 3 self-denominated rules by each entity are being

 4 followed, I think given what we've seen, as well

 5 as the expectation by end users is that the

 6 standard of care has to be considerably higher in

 7 terms of ensuring that the money is where it's

 8 supposed to be.

 9 So, as to Eileen's point about seg., our

 10 expectations would be that every FCM is

 11 guaranteeing that the money is where it's supposed

 12 to be on a daily basis, and someone's checking it.

 13 And to the extent that certain investors may

 14 impose or ask their FCMs to guarantee that for

 15 them, I think it's more appropriate to be done at

 16 the regulatory level as opposed to investor by

 17 investor asking.

 18 So, I think it's definitely falling into

 19 the utility function, and I think given the

 20 reactions we've seen, it is important to realize

 21 that it may not be as clearly delineated as some

 22 people have thought. But the expectation is
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 1 clearly there.

 2 MR. PICCOLI: Just following up on that

 3 Bill, because two thoughts. One, I totally agree.

 4 I think that's certainly a reasonable expectation

 5 of the users to make sure that the money's there

 6 all the time. But two thoughts, one, a lot of

 7 times, you know, we'll come in and look at point

 8 in time. So, we'll go and we'll say, okay, yep,

 9 the cash is there. We confirm it, tie it all out,

 10 agrees with the general ledger, that's great.

 11 I think, but it's balancing that with

 12 looking at the controls to make sure, okay the

 13 cash is there today. Will it be there tomorrow?

 14 And there I think, I would think that what we need

 15 to do is look at the controls to make sure the

 16 controls are sufficient to ensure that cash will

 17 be there tomorrow.

 18 We're looking at one point in time, so,

 19 instead of just a substantive view of, okay, is

 20 the cash there today? Great. What are the

 21 controls to make sure the cash is there tomorrow?

 22 I think building that in, and if I could
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 1 just, just following on that, how much reliance

 2 should be placed on the CPA, the independent CPA

 3 coming in and doing the financial review?

 4 MR. DE LEON: There are a lot more

 5 people here who are much more versed in some of

 6 this. I would say from where we sit, that the

 7 concept of point in time is incredibly important

 8 and I think that that is for a deep dive into sort

 9 of all the nuts and bolts of everything. There is

 10 clearly the importance on having the surety and

 11 reviewing the process and making sure it's

 12 followed on a daily basis.

 13 However, at the end of the day, the

 14 expectation is that each FCM meet its seg.

 15 Requirement and someone has to go, "okay, we did a

 16 deep dive three months ago, or six months ago, or

 17 two weeks ago. They have a good process in place.

 18 They have good controls. We did a deep dive."

 19 That's great, but we need to know every day that

 20 seg. is there, because we've seen that someone can

 21 go from being in a good seg. situation to a lot of

 22 money missing really quickly. And I would argue
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 1 that investors expect that degree of confidence

 2 and are asking the questions for that.

 3 So, I agree the deep dive should be done

 4 less frequently because it's a much more

 5 complicated thing, however, at some point someone

 6 needs to go, "Yes, seg. is met every day," because

 7 if it's not met and there's a violation and you

 8 don't act on it, that's when things can go really

 9 badly, both for the end user who has put money in,

 10 as well as the financial system in general, which

 11 I know are two of your concerns.

 12 MS. BAGAN: Anne Bagan. I'm going to

 13 reiterate what Eileen said, too. I don't want

 14 anybody to think that we don't take internal

 15 controls into account on our regulatory audits.

 16 They are primarily financial, but in order to

 17 assess what areas we are going to look at on any

 18 regulatory audit, we do look over the firm's

 19 controls and procedures and that helps us assess

 20 where we need to focus our energy on any audit.

 21 To my point of view, if you go through

 22 that process and then you do the regulatory audit
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 1 and things tie out the way they're supposed to, I

 2 think you can rely on the firm's procedures at

 3 that point. Not to say somebody won't break it

 4 later on, but we don't have a guarantee of that.

 5 MR. BARNETT: I want to come back to

 6 that question about how -- thank you -- how people

 7 test the efficacy of controls. I mean, because

 8 it's kind of like if you count it and the money's

 9 there, then the controls must be. I'm not sure.

 10 I want to come back and get people's thoughts on

 11 that. But, Dan, go ahead.

 12 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll, NFA. I

 13 just wanted to make a few points. One is that

 14 while the audit date is as of a particular date,

 15 sort of a balance sheet look at the firm on that

 16 date, I don't think anybody should think that when

 17 we look at transactions, when we test things, that

 18 it's only on one day. There's the transactions

 19 that we look at are over time, but we just tie

 20 everything out, hopefully to the penny, on the

 21 audit date.

 22 So, it's not just a one day sort of
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 1 thing. On the question about, which is more

 2 important: Controls or testing? I think they're

 3 both important, because I think one without the

 4 other just wouldn't get you anywhere near where

 5 you need to be.

 6 MR. TIRRELL: Bill Tirrell. In my 30

 7 plus years' experience, I can appreciate the fact

 8 that the NFA and the CME do have processes to look

 9 at controls and so on, but in practice I can also

 10 tell you that most of the time, the examiners are

 11 spending their time ticking and tying numbers, and

 12 not having conversations with the folks that are

 13 actually involved in these processes.

 14 And as an example, we just had a recent

 15 request come in to look at our bank accounts and

 16 our reconciliations. And there are over 50 plus

 17 bank accounts that need to be reviewed, and the

 18 request is for all 50 plus bank accounts in hard

 19 copy and reconciliations. And we employ an

 20 automated reconciliation utility that most of

 21 those reconciliations go through.

 22 So, to look at 50 plus, to spend those
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 1 hours and we were told by two different examiners

 2 that that exact same process would be for four

 3 examiners for ten weeks and two examiners for four

 4 weeks.

 5 So, there's a big dispersity there of

 6 time and commitment, but if they have an automated

 7 utility that reconciles that's separate and

 8 distinct from the operations and some of the other

 9 aspects of the business, one would wonder if

 10 you're really spending enough time evaluating the

 11 controls and processes, or are you really

 12 concentrating on ticking and tying the numbers

 13 back to reconciliations? And following those

 14 reconciliations through into the actual seg. coms

 15 and what controls and oversights and escalation

 16 processes around it. I have not seen that in my

 17 current processes, or in my past processes.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Bill, let me

 19 jump back to Bill De Leon. So when you talk about

 20 wanting to make sure the cash is there every day,

 21 taking what Bill Tirrell just said, with the 50

 22 accounts and the reconciliations that have to be
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 1 done automated.

 2 So, is it that you discount controls and

 3 that you would, for instance, in this case, you

 4 would have somebody on a daily basis going through

 5 the accounts, or I'm trying to understand the

 6 balance between --

 7 MR. DE LEON: We are not discounting

 8 controls, and we're not discounting the fact that

 9 there have to be good processes and they need to

 10 be followed in any way. However, at the end of

 11 the day, you want to put as many controls or

 12 checks in place to ensure that they're being done.

 13 And given the sizes of money involved here, and

 14 the issues associated with where that money goes,

 15 and how quickly it can moved from one entity to

 16 another, we want to make sure that it's checked.

 17 So, I agree with you, 50 hard copies

 18 every day is incredibly difficult to verify. I

 19 would point out, though, and several people at

 20 this table can tell you that they do it every

 21 single day for thousands of accounts, because

 22 every one of our accounts, when we clear, they
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 1 tick and tie at the FCM every single penny. And

 2 if we're off, we get a phone call. And we're not

 3 the only client of these large institutions.

 4 So, we're talking about tens of

 5 thousands of accounts that are automated, that are

 6 verified, and ultimately those numbers go into the

 7 CME or LCH or ICE or whoever it is, and they are

 8 verifying those numbers at the entity level.

 9 So, I'm just saying that if each FCM has

 10 that standard of care for every one of its

 11 clients, because I can tell you if we underpay on

 12 initial margin or variation margin, we're getting

 13 a lot of phone calls, and there're a lot of issues

 14 that the standard of care in our view should be

 15 commensurate.

 16 MR. BARNETT: We need some help from the

 17 big accounting firms, okay? Sam, and Anne, and

 18 Mike, and Rich, we need some help. Controls

 19 versus substantive testing, we need some help.

 20 Thoughts? Mike, you want to go first?

 21 MR. JAMROZ: Well, let me start by

 22 saying that I don't do audits. I'm actually in
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 1 the -- my background as you know, is a former SEC

 2 employee in that area that writes the rules that

 3 the broker dealers are subject to. And I am my

 4 technical advisor to our audit practice. I'll

 5 make a comment but I would really like the rest of

 6 the folks here that actually do the audits to

 7 supplement this.

 8 But it's basically going to echo what

 9 has been said already, in that, you know, that

 10 both are important. You need absolutely to look

 11 at controls and a good, not only culture of --

 12 first of all I would say that the compliance and

 13 control culture of the firm itself is important,

 14 in addition to the control themselves, but also

 15 you have to supplement that with the appropriate

 16 amount of testing. And I would expect that most

 17 of the other firms here would say the two go

 18 together. I mean, what you are supposed to do is

 19 design your testing around your evaluation of the

 20 controls, right?

 21 MR. BARNETT: Sam, you want to take a

 22 response?
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 1 MR. TELZER: Sure. Sam Telzer, thank

 2 you. From an audit standpoint, the audit

 3 standards really talk about evaluating the control

 4 structure at an entity. And if we all step back

 5 and say, audit standards are generic for all

 6 entities that are subject to the audit. So, there

 7 is no specific audit standard that applies to an

 8 FCM as an FCM.

 9 So, we start off with a very broad

 10 brush. I think the other panelists have made a

 11 lot of good points, is that, you do have to look

 12 at the mix between what is the control

 13 environment. What are the policies and

 14 procedures? Who has authorization? What

 15 technology supports the process? How much of it

 16 is what I'll call spreadsheet based versus more

 17 automated technology based?

 18 And I think you get a lot of granularity

 19 when you start looking at different organizations,

 20 and I'll take up on what Bill said is when there's

 21 automated reconciliations, an auditor can test

 22 those and get a lot of comfort if those automation
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 1 controls are appropriate and can be tested.

 2 There's no reason to go test those things in a

 3 more substantive manner with deep dives if you can

 4 rely on the controls.

 5 The issue you typically get into in

 6 almost any organization is there is some mix of

 7 controls and more human elements, and the human

 8 element, just because we're all humans and humans

 9 can make mistakes, is the human element is often

 10 what affects the balance between controls and what

 11 auditors call substantive testing. So, I think,

 12 you know, from a overall quality perspective it

 13 would really be terrific if there was, you know,

 14 incremental information on what expectations are.

 15 I clearly hear Bill with what he said

 16 from PIMCO of what the expectation is from the

 17 users, and I think the auditors are trying to meet

 18 those expectations, but there can still be a gap

 19 given the volume, given the human element, given

 20 the way the organization sets itself up. So, I

 21 echo what Mike said as well which is that there is

 22 always a desire to be able to rely on what an
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 1 organization does; because that's the highest

 2 level you can get to.

 3 However, you could always see where a

 4 human being, without proper guidance, without

 5 proper expertise, would not maybe make the same

 6 decision as a technology system that's supporting

 7 that same structure.

 8 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Go ahead, Ron.

 9 MR. FILLER: I want to throw in another

 10 intangible element, and Mike mentioned it just

 11 briefly, but I think it needs to be talked about

 12 or discussed, and that's the culture of the firm.

 13 I mean the culture of the firm in dealing with the

 14 audits, when I was at Lehman our DSRO was the

 15 Board of Trade, I, as a managing director, and

 16 another senior officer, were always assigned to

 17 work with the audit staff who came in from the

 18 Board of Trade to making sure we were in

 19 compliance with and working with them to determine

 20 whatever procedures.

 21 I also had the opportunity when I was at

 22 Lehman to be a member of the CME Clearing House
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 1 Risk Committee, so, we knew, I knew what they were

 2 concerned about also looking at other FCMs and so

 3 forth. And I think it's the culture making sure

 4 that the firm has that necessary intangible to

 5 ensure that they, not only from the internal

 6 controls, or testing perspective -- and I think, I

 7 know we're not supposed to talk about specifically

 8 two recent firms, but I think if you look at those

 9 issues, and some of them, and drill down, it's

 10 really the culture of those firms that causes as

 11 much of the problems. A lack of controls at those

 12 firms, and it's an intangible.

 13 You can't regulate a culture, but that

 14 is still a very significant role in making sure

 15 the firms are in compliance with the appropriate

 16 regulations.

 17 MR. PICCOLI: Yeah, I think that's a

 18 great point, Ron, because it goes to the risk

 19 profile. How do you establish the risk profile of

 20 a firm and from there determine your ordered

 21 approach? So, that's a great observation, thank

 22 you.
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Let's go back to John,

 2 too. Sorry about that, go ahead.

 3 MR. HAGUE: No, just from a historical

 4 standpoint in auditing FCMs for the last 30 years,

 5 we, as auditors, have basically by default gone to

 6 substantive testing. Yes, we're required to gain

 7 an understanding of the internal control structure

 8 as Anne had basically said, and make a risk

 9 assessment, but a lot of times because of the

 10 point in time nature of our report, including the

 11 internal control reports, historically, we've

 12 defaulted to substantive procedures versus really

 13 testing controls.

 14 So, there's a huge difference between

 15 gaining an understanding of the controls and being

 16 able to make a risk assessment, and actually

 17 testing those controls. And I'm sure later on in

 18 this morning's discussion we'll talk about the

 19 recent proposed SEC and PCAOB rule changes for

 20 broker dealers.

 21 MR. RAMTAHAL: I'd like to, Anand

 22 Ramtahal, comment on internal controls and testing
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 1 on exams. And a large part of the scope of our

 2 exam is driven by what our survey on staff knows

 3 about a given firm. So, to your last comment,

 4 Kevin, what is the risk environment? How do we

 5 view the staff? What is our history with this

 6 firm?

 7 Sam mentioned spreadsheet controls. You

 8 know, do they have systems, proper systems, in

 9 place to ensure compliance with specific rules, or

 10 is it done manually? What is the quality of the

 11 staff? And I'll talk a little bit later about our

 12 surveillance program, but really, our examination

 13 and the scope of our examinations are driven, and

 14 generally at most (inaudible) clearing firms are

 15 out there once a year. But we're in touch with

 16 our firms throughout the year, so that we

 17 understand their business, the risks, the quality

 18 of the staff, and it's an accumulation of

 19 information throughout the year that will drive

 20 the scoping of our examination when we're on-site.

 21 So, it may be a review of internal -- a

 22 review and testing of internal controls. What are
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 1 the controls in place? What are the escalation

 2 processes? What is the corporate governance

 3 environment? And that will drive whether or not

 4 we actually test during the course of our

 5 financial operational reviews. None of us has

 6 unlimited resources, so we have to find the most

 7 efficient ways of executing our programs.

 8 MR. BARNETT: Let me ask, say a smaller

 9 BD versus one of the large BDs, would the smaller

 10 BD that has a smaller compliance department and

 11 presumably could it have as good a control

 12 structure as a larger one? Does it drive you

 13 towards more substantive testing versus control

 14 based reliance? I mean, how does that factor in?

 15 MR. RAMTAHAL: Well again, it's all

 16 about what we know of the firm and what we

 17 identify as risks. And, as I said, that's always

 18 ongoing. So, the scope of the exam will not

 19 necessarily be smaller depending on the size of

 20 the firm. In fact, it could go either way.

 21 So, size doesn't matter. It's what we

 22 know of the firm, what we identify as risk, what
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 1 we know of the internal control environment.

 2 MR. DE LEON: Gary?

 3 MR. BARNETT: Thank you.

 4 MR. DE LEON: I just want to comment on

 5 that, and maybe I'm jumping ahead. Our view has

 6 been that regardless of the size of the firm,

 7 there's a standard of care that has to be held,

 8 and it shouldn't matter whether it's a large firm

 9 or a small firm. The standard of care needs to be

 10 met. So, a larger firm may have more assets and

 11 more resources, however, there's just got to be a

 12 basic standard of care. It's sort of analogous to

 13 a car, right?

 14 You buy a car; it has to have certain

 15 safety standards. Doesn't matter, you know, if

 16 it's a Prius or if it's a Lexus, it's got to have

 17 that certain basics.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Okay, thank you. And for

 19 the record that was Bill De Leon. Okay. Some

 20 more from the accounting firms? Who have we not

 21 heard from?

 22 MR. PICCOLI: Rich. Also you came a
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 1 little bit late. I know you had plane trouble.

 2 Can you just introduce yourself? Thank you.

 3 MR. FLOWERS: I'm Rich Flowers, a

 4 partner with Grant Thornton. Been in the industry

 5 about 40 years and previously was the engagement

 6 partner on a number of major league FCMs which

 7 have, unfortunately, gone the way of the

 8 Washington Nationals as far as I'd hoped anyway.

 9 But it includes EF Hutton and other big firms.

 10 I think that the assessment of the

 11 overall environment of a client is excellent, the

 12 risk looking at it that way. If we want to look at

 13 the actual controls, though, the distribution

 14 between what's underneath the monitoring controls

 15 and then the various fundamental controls that

 16 might flow into the monitoring controls. And

 17 don't rely simply upon monitoring controls.

 18 That's an easy way to -- well don't forget he

 19 reviews the reconciliation. So you have to sign

 20 off on that.

 21 No, what were the fundamental controls

 22 that were actually in place? That's where we get
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 1 down to the details, and I think that the

 2 selection of the extent of the testing of those

 3 fundamental controls is important. Certainly they

 4 then transmit up to what monitoring controls you

 5 are going to have in place.

 6 MR. HAGUE: You know, another point that

 7 needs to be made is that we are in a very

 8 competitive environment. The CPAs in this room do

 9 get paid for providing those professional

 10 services. So, we're tasked with providing an

 11 efficient and effective audit that meets the

 12 standards.

 13 And again, it gets back to whether or

 14 not we're going to test controls. Once we gain

 15 that understanding, if we spend a lot of time

 16 testing controls, but don't reduce the amount of

 17 substantive testing that we perform, we're

 18 spending more time and not necessarily improving

 19 the results of the audit. Could, but potentially

 20 not, and then again, we are For Profit

 21 Organizations and we also have clients that are

 22 very demanding on us to be, and to provide as an
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 1 effective and an efficient audit as possible.

 2 So, by testing controls and not reducing

 3 in the amount of substantive testing we're going

 4 to be doing anyway, again, as a point in time,

 5 auditors lean towards provide just doing the

 6 substantive testing.

 7 MR. BARNETT: Howard?

 8 MR. ROTHMAN: Howard Rothman, from

 9 Vision, and I want to kind of go back to Bill's

 10 point a little bit. I think there's got to be a

 11 little sensitivity that we have gone, all of us,

 12 from I call it a batch environment where it's an

 13 end of the day or end of the month or end of the

 14 year environment, to where we're all on real time.

 15 And certainly at the CME and with the CME Clearing

 16 House on trading of our customers and SPAN margin,

 17 they're able to assess the risk and the P&L of

 18 various customers on a real time basis.

 19 And firms today and I'm sure all of them

 20 that are here today, all have real time monitoring

 21 of their customers. So, the question is when

 22 we're asking a point in time, I think that
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 1 diminishes at the end of the day the usefulness.

 2 If you're auditing once a year, if you're auditing

 3 once a month, but as the world's changing all day

 4 long, I think that, and again we're going to get

 5 into ideas later on, but obviously, especially at

 6 the CME, my DSRO, they see the vast majority of

 7 the customer trading and the SPAN margin.

 8 But, we need as an industry to allow

 9 them, as a regulator, to have access, and I know,

 10 Bill, you have a legitimate point about 50

 11 different bank accounts, but, and are much

 12 smaller. But, we basically have two bank

 13 accounts; I don't see any reason why the tool of

 14 real time view access into our bank accounts, for

 15 our customer bank accounts, aren't available to

 16 the regulators, whether the CFTC, the NFA, at all

 17 times.

 18 They, obviously, view all of our

 19 customer trading at the Clearing House real time

 20 all the time. It's again, nothing is going to be

 21 perfect, but we need to give everybody the tools

 22 so that if they're counting on the regulators to
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 1 say the money is there and the controls are there,

 2 you've got to give them the real time monitoring

 3 tools. And I think that will go back to Bill's

 4 point of being able to ensure at the end of the

 5 day that the money is there for all our benefit.

 6 MR. BARNETT: Thank you, Howard. Ann,

 7 can we get your thoughts on this topic?

 8 MS. CHEESEMAN: Yes. My thoughts are

 9 probably a little bit redundant, but I would agree

 10 with my colleagues that we follow the auditing

 11 standards. We follow, there are some example

 12 audit procedures in the AICPA practice aid, and

 13 you'll see in there that they are a mixture of

 14 control procedures and substantive procedures.

 15 And I'm also keen to see, we've been listening to

 16 the debate related to the SEC's upcoming 17a-5

 17 rules, and it's a similar debate.

 18 And so, I know there's been struggles on

 19 that, and I think we should leverage those

 20 discussions when we're talking about how much

 21 control testing and the cost et cetera.

 22 MR. BARNETT: Great, thank you. Others
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 1 on this question who want to weigh in? Okay.

 2 All right, so let me ask you a question.

 3 Again, it's kind of a basics question, but I want

 4 to talk about examinations and fraud. And if

 5 examinations, I assume they -- I need you to

 6 correct me, advise me, but to what extent do

 7 examinations under, I guess, GAAS look at fraud?

 8 And to the extent they don't, given issues we've

 9 seen, can fraud audits be done practically? If

 10 not, what other kind of mitigants should we be

 11 thinking about implementing?

 12 Bill?

 13 MR. TIRRELL: Bill Tirrell. Quite

 14 honestly, Gary, I don't see much difference

 15 between doing an examination and doing a fraud

 16 examination. I think they are somewhat hand in

 17 hand. And again, it goes back to looking at some

 18 of the fundamentals, if you will, the blocking and

 19 tackling of the controls. You know, are there

 20 separation of duties? Are there supervision and

 21 escalation policies in place? How much automation

 22 is in place? Things of that nature that would
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 1 prevent fraud, as well as the competency of the

 2 people.

 3 Do you have a clerk, that if you asked

 4 them what happens if you do this wrong? He says,

 5 "well, I don't know. Talk to so-and-so." There's

 6 a good chance that that individual is not going to

 7 pick on something that looks a little odd, or

 8 could be influenced by someone else.

 9 So, I think when you look at the overall

 10 culture, as we talked about, the controls and

 11 processes in place, the competency of the

 12 individuals, the separation of some of those

 13 blocking and tackling things, I think that's all

 14 wrapped up into an exam. There is no, in my

 15 opinion, no difference in doing a fraud exam

 16 versus a regular exam.

 17 MR. BARNETT: Other views?

 18 MR. RAMTAHAL: Yeah, I, Anand Ramtahal.

 19 I would agree with Bill and while we do have a

 20 fraud element in our exam program, again it's

 21 going to be risk based driven. And so, what do we

 22 know about the broker dealer? In addition to the
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 1 things that Bill mentioned, who is the public

 2 accountant? What is the quality of that

 3 accounting firm or individual that we know? How

 4 are customer statements generated? We've seen

 5 broker dealers where they're done manually.

 6 They're generated on a Word document.

 7 What is the profile of the customers? What is the

 8 relationship of the senior members of the firm

 9 with those customers? There has to be red flags

 10 there before we choose to execute a fraud review

 11 during the course of our exam. And again, if we

 12 know the firm and know the firm well enough, we

 13 should be able to make those decisions if and when

 14 we do fraud reviews.

 15 MR. BARNETT: Okay, thank you. Sam?

 16 MR. TELZER: Sam Telzer. I think there

 17 may be a nuanced point that you may be getting to

 18 Gary, which is, when you look at the GAAS

 19 standards which is the audit standards the

 20 auditors follow, there are specific standards

 21 about the auditor responsibility relative to

 22 designing programs to detect fraud and there's a
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 1 lot of expectation issues in the user community

 2 about what is the auditor role in detecting fraud.

 3 One of the things I think the profession

 4 has tried to do, and I'm not talking about the

 5 DSROs or the SROs, more the independent auditors,

 6 is we've worked with forensic type auditors to try

 7 and improve our audit procedures. Because we

 8 think that that clarity, that additional step,

 9 actually improves the quality of the audit. There

 10 is probably some measure where others who do

 11 examinations of FCMs or broker dealers, to the

 12 extent they're not already using that type of

 13 skill, that might be something that can improve

 14 the audit process to really bake in fraud

 15 detection mechanisms, and really help the overall

 16 examination process.

 17 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Others want to

 18 --

 19 MS. BAGAN: I have a question.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Yep, Anne.

 21 MS. BAGAN: So fraud audit seems to be

 22 the popular term right now that keeps getting
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 1 thrown around. What specifically are we talking

 2 about there? What type of steps are we looking

 3 at? Is it just an internal control review? Or

 4 when you say, you look for fraud, what do you look

 5 for?

 6 MR. JAMROZ: Actually, this is Mike

 7 Jamroz. I just want to supplement the question

 8 Anne is asking because fraud, the definition of

 9 fraud is actually very, very broad. And it could

 10 cover anything from just simple embezzlement to

 11 other things that don't really even touch the

 12 accounting financial control process.

 13 So, I think, actually what would be

 14 good, would be to frame the discussion with

 15 respect to the types of fraud that you would like

 16 us to discuss. What kinds of fraud are we talking

 17 about here?

 18 MR. BARNETT: I'm not sure I want to

 19 frame it.

 20 MR. DE LEON: Hey, Gary?

 21 MR. BARNETT: Yes?

 22 MR. DE LEON: If I can jump in.
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Bill.

 2 MR. DE LEON: You know, I guess, two

 3 things. One, we sort of take the view of trust

 4 but verify. And I know that that's sort of a

 5 basic concept, however, the question of

 6 verification, I think, becomes more difficult and

 7 needs to be more fleshed out, and, as Sam

 8 mentioned, sort of more real time independent

 9 information as opposed to relying on things.

 10 Question of what auditors are used, and

 11 what standard of care is applied to them? Right?

 12 You don't want Bob, in his basement, being your

 13 auditor, so, who's the auditor -- how is that

 14 selected, what standard of care is there is

 15 another question in terms of that I think is

 16 relevant to giving a degree of confidence as well.

 17 So, those are sort of the two things

 18 that we think about because, obviously, there's

 19 the process, there's the checking, but there's the

 20 fraud concept. And unfortunately, if someone

 21 really wants to spend a lot of effort doing fraud,

 22 they're going to get quite creative. So, you need
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 1 -- it's sort of a battle. So, I don't know if you

 2 can ever prevent it. However, you want to have as

 3 much in place, and enough standards of care, and

 4 sort of ways of thinking about things, that you're

 5 catching the obvious ones, or they're flags that

 6 are being caught.

 7 And, you know, having an outside auditor

 8 come and look at the process, who's checking who

 9 that outside auditor is? What standard of care is

 10 there to make sure it's not Bob, in his basement?

 11 MR. BARNETT: Dan.

 12 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll, NFA. I

 13 just wanted to basically expand on what several

 14 other panelists have said.

 15 First of all, from NFA's perspective, we

 16 view it as our job to be looking for fraud when we

 17 do our examinations and other work. And in fact,

 18 over the years, we've uncovered dozens and dozens

 19 of frauds, some small, some big, and we'll

 20 continue to do that.

 21 I do think that it's important to, you

 22 know, always be looking for ways to do things
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 1 better. And as Howard mentioned that it would be

 2 good to give online view only access to regulators

 3 of seg. and secured amount bank accounts. I just

 4 wanted to say that next week, NFA has got a Board

 5 meeting where the Board will be considering just

 6 such a requirement, where every FCM would have to

 7 provide online view only access.

 8 And that's really only the first step.

 9 Ultimately, what we're going to achieve is an

 10 automated system that would receive information

 11 daily from all of the seg. and secured amount

 12 account systems. Match it up to the seg.

 13 Information we get from firms every day and to

 14 give us alerts if there's any material differences

 15 between what the firms reported to their DSRO and

 16 what the banks confirm.

 17 MR. BARNETT: What kind of variances are

 18 you talking about when you talk about material

 19 differences, given all this stuff about

 20 reconciliations and so on?

 21 MR. DRISCOLL: Well certainly, there are

 22 going to be recon -- especially when you're
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 1 talking about hundreds or maybe thousands of

 2 accounts. They're not all going to tie out penny

 3 for penny, so there will be reconciling items that

 4 would be normal. Frankly, we're still in the

 5 early planning stages of this, so I couldn't tell

 6 you what those parameters will be. But we'll

 7 reach out to the FCM community, to the Bank

 8 community to figure that out.

 9 But that's our goal, which we hope to

 10 have in place sometime next calendar year.

 11 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Eileen?

 12 MS. FLAHERTY: Eileen Flaherty, Newedge.

 13 Again, going to Mike's point, fraud is a very

 14 broad term. But if we're narrowing that down to

 15 talk about is the money actually in the accounts

 16 or is it missing, what Dan has said, what Howard

 17 said, and what others have said, and I think will

 18 be discussed this afternoon, is this idea of reach

 19 or view only access to the bank accounts is

 20 something that, you know, is a very important and

 21 a good step. And while it will take some time to

 22 get the technology and to get all the feeds to the
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 1 regulators, it's absolutely a good thing, and a

 2 necessary thing.

 3 There are some regulatory authorities

 4 elsewhere that currently do this. So, it is

 5 possible. And I think NFA will have some

 6 challenges, as well as the other DSROs, will have

 7 some challenges because it's not just the bank

 8 accounts. You've got accounts at foreign brokers,

 9 and balances around the globe, but focusing on

 10 what NFA is doing as a first step would be a

 11 really good first step for the industry.

 12 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Yvonne, is --

 13 others who have, you know, Steve, and you, and you

 14 guys have a -- go ahead, Mark.

 15 MR. HOLLOWAY: I just wanted to add a

 16 thought here and we would think, too, that the

 17 access to information about bank accounts would be

 18 a big step forward. I'd just like to comment

 19 that, you know, we at Goldman Sachs have gone

 20 through a number of internal control reviews and

 21 very typically, by independent auditors and

 22 others, and very typically those reviews begin
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 1 with a study of our transaction flows from the

 2 beginning of the system to the end of the system.

 3 If you will, from trade entry all the

 4 way through the customers account and, as you

 5 would expect, the reviews include the auditors

 6 actually seeing the transaction flow each step of

 7 the way to the end. And, while I understand that

 8 those audits and reviews are not intended

 9 principally to capture fraud, I would think that

 10 they would make the commitment of fraud or

 11 particularly the hiding of funds much more

 12 difficult to do.

 13 But again, these reviews typically begin

 14 with a complete flow chart, for want of a better

 15 word, of the processes, all of the processes that

 16 the FCM or the broker dealer relies upon, and then

 17 just test to see that all that really, really

 18 happens. And I would think, and I want to

 19 acknowledge that I have not tried to commit a

 20 fraud, but I would think that it would be -- that

 21 type of review would make it far more difficult to

 22 mask a transaction or to funnel money in another
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 1 direction or whatever.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Not just because you've

 3 laid out the flow, but because you've put in

 4 things around that flow. For instance, if you've

 5 two people to enter a swap, for instance, into the

 6 system, or call to their counterparty the next day

 7 to verify there's a live trade, or something like

 8 that, I mean there's --

 9 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yeah, and that's all part

 10 of it, Gary. To see that the -- if we say that a

 11 transaction has to get from point A to point B, is

 12 step one the review would entail a review of that

 13 system and actually looking at records to see that

 14 indeed it went from A to B. And so on down the

 15 line, but yeah, but seeing that entails making

 16 sure that the personnel there, and there's a

 17 procedure to take it the next step and whatever.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Great, thank you. John.

 19 MR. HAGUE: If the question is whether

 20 or not there needs to be a special fraud audit, I

 21 would tend to disagree and suggest that that's not

 22 necessary. As Sam has talked about, the
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 1 profession, the audit profession, has looked at

 2 that as a material risk of the statements, the

 3 financial statements, and, obviously, the loss of

 4 assets, and have responded accordingly.

 5 I mean, we now have a focus on testing

 6 journal entries, identification and testing of

 7 related party transactions. Looking at the

 8 segregation of duties to make sure that the people

 9 in the front office aren't in the back office, so

 10 to speak. Making sure that there's monitoring

 11 controls in place. And there's a huge word out

 12 there called professional skepticism that the

 13 audit profession now has to entail.

 14 And corroborative audit testing. We're

 15 not just relying on inquiry anymore. We're doing

 16 a lot more testing to make sure that what we hear

 17 and understand is actually in place. And I would

 18 assume, Anne, that that's in place in your testing

 19 of, and auditing of your participants.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Yvonne.

 21 MS. DOWNS: Yvonne Downs, sorry,

 22 Jefferies. I think for me as I sit here and
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 1 listen, I think I come at it from where the

 2 customers, who are the ones calling us and asking,

 3 that they want to be assured that what they see

 4 and hear at firms is true. And given the, my

 5 concern is given the complexity and the continuous

 6 complexity and additions in the business; I don't

 7 think we go back enough to the simple basics.

 8 So, I call it back to basics. I mean,

 9 we all talk about trust but verify. I think that,

 10 yes there's lot of systems and automation, but I

 11 think we lose focus on all the different controls

 12 and procedures in a very complex an organization,

 13 and need to focus a little more on the central

 14 core pieces. Who's got the money? Where is it?

 15 Is it verified every day? And to me, I think

 16 that's what our clients are asking to know. And I

 17 think as we talk about this, we need to focus from

 18 that perspective.

 19 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Go ahead,

 20 Howard.

 21 MR. ROTHMAN: Howard Rothman. One thing

 22 I'd like to add, and I think a lot of clients have
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 1 a misconception in is that of firms like myself

 2 and Jefferies and others, we're members of the CME

 3 and therefore are part of their Clearing House and

 4 of other exchange Clearing Houses. And there's

 5 another party that comes to the table and that's

 6 known as the settlement bank. And that piece is

 7 not in the structure of your non-clearing FCMs.

 8 And I think it adds a more challenging layer for

 9 the NFA and Dan, because they don't have the

 10 ability of what a settlement bank can do.

 11 And before you can belong to a Clearing

 12 House, you've got to get a bank to act in that

 13 fashion and they act in a role that they're

 14 providing you credit, even though technically they

 15 don't have to make a variance call or margin call.

 16 But they keep their eye on the financial

 17 condition, your liquidity, and various other

 18 factors and they're in contact with the Clearing

 19 Houses. And it may be something that I think it

 20 can be done. It would have to be thought out, but

 21 there is no reason that non-clearing FCMs can't be

 22 put under that role. They may clear at a certain
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 1 FCM and they could be set up with their own

 2 sub-clearing number. So they could have a midday

 3 margin call if necessary.

 4 So, there's technology would allow for

 5 it, but I think what it also will do is it will

 6 bring, again, another protector or another set of

 7 eyes to the table, and that -- the last instance

 8 of what happened in this industry came from a

 9 non-clearing FCM and, obviously, fraud can happen

 10 anywhere. But I think that's something that the

 11 Commission should think about, just putting

 12 everybody on a level playing field where a

 13 settlement bank is required just to be in the FCM

 14 business.

 15 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. One last

 16 question, then we'll take a break, okay?

 17 The role of the CPA, the FCM's CPA. How

 18 much reliance should be placed on the review of

 19 the financials performed by the CPA? What

 20 qualification standards should exist for, this

 21 goes to your verification question I guess, or --

 22 MR. DE LEON: Bob, the auditor.
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Yeah, Bob, the auditor.

 2 Yes, so, let me throw that out there. So, what do

 3 you think about the FCM's CPA? How much reliance

 4 should be placed on the review of the financials

 5 performed by the CPA, including the statement

 6 going to the controls that are in place?

 7 MR. DE LEON: I apologize. I didn't

 8 mean to insult Bob. And this is Bill De Leon at

 9 PIMCO, and, Steve, obviously your organization

 10 does a lot of work on certifying firms and we rely

 11 at our firm on that. So, I think that there is a

 12 standard of care, but it's not uniform. And

 13 there's not certification in terms of what a firm

 14 needs to do. I think the big firms here have very

 15 high standards, but it's not clear that every FCM

 16 that hires an auditing firm is hiring an auditing

 17 firm that meets a certain standard.

 18 I'm not an auditor, and I'm not an

 19 expert in that. However, I can tell you that

 20 there should be some standard that needs to be met

 21 to say that you've got an auditor to come in and

 22 do an audit of your books. Well, did that auditor
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 1 meet some standard that people are comfortable

 2 with? That's, of course, no guarantee, but I

 3 think it is another control. So, I would defer to

 4 the experts on that one and to Anne as well.

 5 MS. BAGAN: This is Anne Bagan. We

 6 definitely would support some type of standards

 7 for the CPA firms that our FCMs are using.

 8 However, I think it needs to be an industry

 9 standard so that there's no arbitrage going on.

 10 And I think we need to look at both big FCMs and

 11 small FCMs. We don't want to have it be so cost

 12 prohibitive that smaller firms have to use big CPA

 13 firms, but definitely we would support some type

 14 of standards, and would be willing to work with

 15 the industry on setting those.

 16 MR. BARNETT: Other reactions?

 17 MR. RICHARDS: Yeah, let me give the

 18 regulator caveat here. PCAOB doesn't currently,

 19 the brokers and dealers in the FCM world aren't

 20 subject, the auditors, are not subject to PCAOB

 21 registration. At the moment the current rule that

 22 we have is a temporary inspection program and it
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 1 only relates to broker dealers registered with the

 2 SEC.

 3 Having said that though, I think some of

 4 the things that we look at when we look at

 5 underlying firms just in the evaluation part of

 6 our inspection program, is we look at does the

 7 firm have the right skill set? Does it have the

 8 right complexity? What is the workload for the

 9 respective partners? Is it realistic to be able

 10 to do a GAAS, in the FCM world, a GAAS compliant

 11 audit given that workload? Do they have the right

 12 leverage? Do they have the right financial

 13 wherewithal to be able to service that particular

 14 issuer or in our temporary inspection program, the

 15 broker dealer?

 16 So, those are different elements that we

 17 think about as we're looking and could be

 18 leveraged into a program with industry-wide under

 19 it for the FCMs.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Thank you, Steve. Other

 21 thoughts? Okay, why don't we take a break? Let's

 22 take a ten minute break and then we'll come back
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 1 at 10:46.

 2 (Recess)

 3 MR. BARNETT: Okay, we are going to

 4 restart. We're actually going to need Steve for

 5 the next question. Just like we're going to need

 6 Rich.

 7 So, first question in this second part

 8 of our first panel is in an audit how do you

 9 assess the risk of a fraud? How do you integrate

 10 that?

 11 MR. PICCOLI: So, looking at the risk

 12 profile of a firm, how do you determine, what are

 13 the key elements when you do your risk profile?

 14 What do you look for, and then how does that

 15 impact your audit program that you're going to

 16 execute?

 17 MR. BARNETT: Rich, do you want to start

 18 first? Then I want to ask Steve as well.

 19 MR. FLOWERS: I think you need to

 20 understand that the fraud triangle needs to be

 21 assessed in the firm, actually the transactions of

 22 the firm should be evaluated in that fraud
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 1 triangle, that's saying that first is there an

 2 opportunity for fraud? Is there an incentive

 3 related to that opportunity? And is there

 4 rationale, rationalization of the transaction?

 5 Oftentimes, frauds start out as

 6 minuscule, but they tend to grow as we tend to

 7 rationalize those transactions. We do not have a

 8 specific standard that says; well this is a

 9 requirement for the auditor to look at. But

 10 certainly under ordinary standards 316.505, I

 11 think the emphasis is on the amount of journal

 12 entry testing that would be examined relative to

 13 those transactions.

 14 And to sort those transactions out,

 15 stratifying them by related party transactions,

 16 transactions in unusual or generally inactive

 17 accounts, transactions which made by their nature,

 18 not necessarily be the maximum amount or a large

 19 amount, but might be an aggregate amount that the

 20 similar type transactions that are rated together.

 21 These translate into unusual items which

 22 require some investigation to satisfy that the
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 1 transactions themselves are actually valid and

 2 appropriate. I think some of the other firms

 3 would want to chime in on what type of things that

 4 would go with, but certainly I think the extent of

 5 journal entry testing and the actual examination

 6 of that would, in general, assist in validating

 7 the existence or non-existence of fraud.

 8 I don't know if Sam or John want to

 9 comment on that.

 10 MR. TELZER: Sam Telzer. I think if you

 11 go to the guidance that Rich talks about which are

 12 the audit standards, we generally think of what

 13 are the conditions that can create a ripe

 14 opportunity for fraud to exist? So, if you just

 15 permit me, I'll just lay that out, because I think

 16 it's important to have a foundation in it.

 17 Is, the guidance talks about there's an

 18 incentive because people are under pressure. So,

 19 you have to have an exigent event with the fact

 20 that somebody sees the opportunity for gain that

 21 they could do this. Then you have to have, if you

 22 will, ineffective or absent controls. We've
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 1 talked a lot about that in the first half of the

 2 panel. And then the third step is that you

 3 ordinarily see a rationalization by the individual

 4 committing it.

 5 Now, that can take a lot of different

 6 manifestations in that broad definition of fraud.

 7 You have to look at, can management override

 8 controls, because they really know, because they

 9 design controls, whether or not they can override

 10 them. They know where the weak spots are. So,

 11 how do you assess whether or not that weak spot is

 12 so weak that it's ineffective?

 13 How do you look at the information

 14 that's needed to make that assessment as to

 15 whether or not there could be a fraud indicator?

 16 So, I just go back to what Rich said, is that it's

 17 a little judgmental in how you approach it. The

 18 reason for that, and I think a number of the other

 19 panelists have talked about this, is it really

 20 starts off with what is the company like? What is

 21 their culture? What is their style? Can they be

 22 viewed as reliable? Are they ethical? Do they
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 1 promote this throughout the organization?

 2 When you look at the ways things can

 3 occur, you start to step back and say, do

 4 employees have the ability to rationalize the fact

 5 they've been given an order, and they just march

 6 without thinking about it, versus do they have the

 7 ability to raise an issue and have it acted on?

 8 So, I'm not commenting about any

 9 particular organization, it's more just there are

 10 risk factors that we all need to be thinking

 11 about. I think it's good whether it's the

 12 external auditor, the DSRO, the regulators,

 13 because these are all the prime indicators of when

 14 you could see fraud being manifested. And how

 15 those are chosen to be addressed is really a fact

 16 and circumstances individual entity level issue.

 17 MR. BARNETT: That's very helpful.

 18 Thank you. Other thoughts on this point?

 19 MR. PICCOLI: If I can just maybe, I'm

 20 sorry if there are any other thoughts, but I was

 21 thinking of just sending it over to Bill for one

 22 second. Put you on the spot, but just from a --
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 1 because I'm thinking yes, there's a risk profile

 2 that the auditors needs to do, but there's

 3 probably also a risk profile or due diligence that

 4 the users do. And maybe we need to combine those

 5 two in really looking at the firm from our

 6 perspective.

 7 Are there things, in particular, from a

 8 user perspective, Bill, that you would look at a

 9 firm and doing your diligence or your risk

 10 assessment of that firm?

 11 MR. DE LEON: We do several things, and

 12 as I say, I look at the world from a risk

 13 standpoint, less from a formal accounting

 14 standpoint, so, please bear in mind my expertise

 15 where, certainly, or lack thereof in some of these

 16 areas.

 17 One of the things we do, and we consider

 18 sort of a concern, is to make sure that when we

 19 say we have money somewhere, that's it actually

 20 there. So, not only do we think about, at the top

 21 level, where is segregation money? How are they

 22 monitoring, how are they controlling it? We want
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 1 to make sure that what we think an FCM has on

 2 behalf of our client is what they think they have.

 3 And we check that regularly because we're

 4 concerned to make sure that we're in agreement.

 5 And, you know, going to the fraud or

 6 going to the control issue, we've found from

 7 experience that the sooner you identify an issue,

 8 the sooner it is to resolve it or to escalate it.

 9 And when you have an issue and it ages, it's much

 10 harder to figure out what happened, why, and you

 11 have to start digging through things, and the

 12 resolution is much longer. So, to the extent

 13 there is an issue which is malfeasance as opposed

 14 to just an accounting issue or something that is

 15 just clerical in nature, you don't know for a

 16 longer period of time.

 17 So, given that we're talking about sort

 18 of the real time things, we try to do this daily.

 19 And that's one of our concerns in terms of that.

 20 And I also know that we ask, in terms of some of

 21 our FCMs and how we think of the world, what are

 22 they doing, what controls do they have in place,
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 1 who's signed off on financials to say that they've

 2 checked that seg. is good on a given day? Because

 3 we want to make sure that someone at a senior

 4 level at that firm is owning it. Now it doesn't

 5 mean that they won't take the risk of going to

 6 jail, or take the risk of lying, however, it is an

 7 incentive. So, you want to have those things.

 8 So, we think about it not only at the

 9 top level, what is the firm doing? What are their

 10 controls? Who's auditing them? But we want to

 11 audit or have controls in place for our accounts.

 12 MS. BAGAN: So, Bill, how do you do that

 13 daily? How do you confirm it daily?

 14 MR. DE LEON: We ask our FCMs to send us

 15 a tape every day for every account with collateral

 16 balances.

 17 MR. BARNETT: Steve, could you weigh in

 18 on Rich and Sam's points on this fraud look.

 19 MR. RICHARDS: Yes, so at the PCAOB, we

 20 are inspecting the audit firms who are doing the

 21 audits of issuers and on a temporary program,

 22 broker dealers. So, in and of itself, we're
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 1 looking to see certain areas within those auditors

 2 and how they executed the work relative to the

 3 standard.

 4 One of the things, though, I think would

 5 be helpful to the discussion, when we think about

 6 how we go about executing our work, is, how do we

 7 think about our selections and where to look?

 8 Because what we try to do is take many different

 9 disparate data sets, you know, internal

 10 information that the firms provide on how the

 11 partners do, external things, actions by other

 12 regulatory agencies about particular partner's

 13 office's events, and then try to marry it with

 14 underlying, in the issue program, issue

 15 information. And we try to bisect those two

 16 things to say, you know, there may be particular

 17 risks in a particular office of a particular firm.

 18 Are there heightened risks because of particular

 19 clients in that office?

 20 And trying to bisect those two things

 21 and say, well here is where the greatest risk is,

 22 and where our inspection will provide the best
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 1 benefit for investor protection in the issuer

 2 program. So, I think when we think about some of

 3 things that have been talked about here, there are

 4 a lot of different data sets out there. It's

 5 about getting them into a digestible format and

 6 leveraging out those risk factors that people have

 7 talked about. And say, where do I need to look?

 8 Because we're all dealing with finite resources.

 9 So, we want to maximize that ability to make that

 10 resource count.

 11 MR. PICCOLI: Taking your thought, Rich,

 12 and moving it towards the accounting firms and

 13 how, when they go in and do their initial and

 14 their planning stage, how they evaluate and

 15 determine what's the risk profile of that firm?

 16 What are the key things you look for, look at to

 17 determine the risk profile and then, I assume that

 18 would then dictate what your auditing procedures

 19 are?

 20 So, we can just sort of focus maybe more

 21 on the planning stage, and are the things we

 22 should be thinking about and planning an
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 1 examination of an FCM that would be appropriate

 2 for us?

 3 Sam, I'll pick on you. Thanks.

 4 MR. TELZER: Thank you, Kevin. Sam

 5 Telzer, being picked on.

 6 When planning is done you typically take

 7 a step back and assess what are the things that

 8 are subjective or judgmental? Because anything

 9 that is subjective or judgmental is inherently

 10 more risk prone. Once you look at that inherent

 11 risk, it then needs to be evaluated as to whether

 12 or not that inherent risk could be driving some

 13 element of fraud risk.

 14 When you start parsing that down, it

 15 starts looking at, from a planning standpoint is,

 16 is there a risk of material misstatement of the

 17 financial statements, and by extension, if you're

 18 in a regulated entity like a broker dealer or

 19 futures dealer, whether or not those risks attach

 20 to any of the regulatory computations that carry

 21 on with that audit.

 22 Then you take the next step in looking
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 1 at how you take all those risks and align them

 2 with the financial statement items and make a

 3 determination as to what level and type of testing

 4 needs to be done. Because that really drives the

 5 execution of the audit in terms of, are there

 6 controls? Are there reviews? Are things

 7 automated? Are they manual? Are there

 8 appropriate segregation responsibilities? Are

 9 there reconciliations? What's the quality of the

 10 judgments? What's the quality of the subjectivity

 11 to an item, and then you use that to really drive

 12 a lot of the other pieces of the actual execution

 13 of the audit program.

 14 The GAAS standard pretty well lays that

 15 out in a very succinct way of what the auditor is

 16 required to do, and I've just tried to capture

 17 that to give the committee a sense of that in

 18 framing the discussion.

 19 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. I want to move

 20 on to another question here, okay?

 21 Very different question. Should the

 22 examination approach differ when you're examining
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 1 a standalone FCM versus when you're dealing with a

 2 joint FCM BD? Is it different? Is it the same?

 3 Bill?

 4 MR. TIRRELL: Bill Tirrell. I think

 5 it's not only different, I would suggest to you

 6 that I think you would need to even dissect that

 7 further between the larger say bank holding

 8 company FCM BDs versus more middle of the road FCM

 9 BD, to a large say FCM, standalone FCM and a small

 10 FCM. And I say that because if you look at the

 11 larger firms, there is an army of regulators that

 12 are marching through that firm on a daily basis.

 13 So, there is a tremendous amount of

 14 oversight at various levels by different

 15 regulatory bodies, and I think there should be

 16 some comfort in the fact that, with everybody

 17 looking at that entity, that the chances of having

 18 something go wrong are, obviously, extremely small

 19 at that point. Not that it can't happen, but

 20 obviously when you have a lot of folks focused on

 21 liquidity, focused on capital adequacies and so on

 22 at all different levels, the chances of having
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 1 something material happen, I think are diminished.

 2 When you get to the FCM BDs, obviously,

 3 their business profile and their clientele may be

 4 a lot different. So, for instance, in a

 5 standalone FCM may deal more with your ranchers

 6 and farmers and so on and traditional commodities,

 7 where an FCM BD may be dealing with clients that

 8 are more into financial futures or a mixed bag.

 9 And so, therefore, their risk profile, their

 10 interaction with other regulations from the SEC

 11 standpoint, and so on, I think becomes another

 12 heightened level of complexity that also would

 13 require better coordination across with FINRA and

 14 the SEC and so on, in order to ensure that you're

 15 covering the full gamut of risk within that

 16 entity.

 17 And the same thing, again I think you

 18 start looking at it from a liquidity standpoint,

 19 what's their lines, what's their durations of

 20 their lines and so on, in order to test how much

 21 liquidity is actually at their disposal. And the

 22 same thing, again as I mentioned with the FCM, as
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 1 you go from a large FCM down to a small FCM, your

 2 client base, the amount of diversity in products

 3 and clients, complexity of the organization, the

 4 ability to have credit lines and so on, I think is

 5 different.

 6 So, therefore, when you look at that

 7 structure, I think it's very important to profile

 8 in such a way that you are measuring all these

 9 different aspects because they are very different

 10 in many ways and very unique. And in that

 11 structure, I think it also would allow you to

 12 cater to the exam in a much different approach as

 13 well. Because I think in that scenario, you would

 14 need to have an audit scope and an examination

 15 sophistication to match the entity in order to get

 16 assurances that you're covering the risk and

 17 understanding the dynamics of the firm and the

 18 potential for weaknesses and impact on the overall

 19 marketplace.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Bill, taking a step beyond

 21 that statement, then, or applying it, then, should

 22 an SRO examine the other parts of the business
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 1 that are other than the futures side? So, for

 2 instance, do they need to look at the securities

 3 side in order to understand the risks of that

 4 business?

 5 MR. TIRRELL: I think there needs to be

 6 a lot more coordination between the securities and

 7 the commodities side of the business. They're

 8 very much interrelated in the business and in the

 9 products. To look at it as us and them, I think,

 10 is a completely wrong approach. It should be,

 11 it's we and to the extent that there is that

 12 sharing of knowledge, Anand talked about the

 13 interaction with the broker dealer to get that

 14 sense and so on. Well that should be on both ends

 15 of the spectrum, if you will, as far as the

 16 regulators. So that when you look at that in

 17 totality the risk profile should be consistent.

 18 It shouldn't that Anand feels that they have a

 19 great team over there and everything is fine, and

 20 Anne looks and says, you know we've got to really

 21 spend a lot of time here because these guys don't

 22 know what the hell they're doing.
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 1 So, if you don't have that interaction,

 2 if you don't have that coordination, I think

 3 you're doing yourselves a disservice.

 4 MR. PICCOLI: So, it's a good point.

 5 It's coordination, not reliance. So, it's not

 6 relying on FINRA to take care of the security

 7 side. We've got to coordinate the approach and

 8 compare notes.

 9 MR. TIRRELL: I would say it is

 10 reliance, too, because as you interact and you

 11 look at your audit scopes and you look at what the

 12 firms are concerned about, that will give you a

 13 comfort level. And if you're not comfortable,

 14 then I think you should raise that also up from a

 15 coordination standpoint. But you should be

 16 approaching this with some commonality that allows

 17 you to have that comfort level that says, yes we

 18 are doing a complete exam here, and we feel that

 19 we've covered things jointly.

 20 MR. BARNETT: But to do that, then you

 21 have to -- you're right there -- but to do that

 22 you have to understand each other's world, I
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 1 guess, in order to be able to have sufficient

 2 communication, right?

 3 MR. TIRRELL: And what I am suggesting

 4 to you is that your worlds are already

 5 intertwined, so, yes, you need to have that.

 6 MR. BARNETT: Mike?

 7 MR. JAMROZ: I am going to supplement

 8 what Bill is saying by also suggesting, this goes

 9 beyond just a risk analysis versus profile to some

 10 degree, it touches upon your use of your own

 11 resources and where you should devote them. And

 12 also, you've got questions in here on training. I

 13 think it touches on that as well. And let me

 14 mention that because, first of all, I would not

 15 suggest that you necessarily, although you could,

 16 coordinate the actual exams themselves.

 17 But what you absolutely should do is

 18 coordinate your supervision of the firms. In

 19 other words, for example, I know FINRA makes a lot

 20 of effort to have an ongoing dialogue with the

 21 firm throughout the year, not just at the time

 22 they do the exams. The bank examiners, in some of
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 1 the large banks, have their people there all year

 2 round. So, in all of the planning stages, and

 3 when you start thinking about what are you going

 4 to do at a firm and what the culture of the firm

 5 is like. What kind of controls are like, because

 6 keep in mind, although you might be the only, you

 7 and of course your SROs, the only folks looking at

 8 the particular seg. aspect of the exam, a lot of

 9 what you do comes from the basic financial

 10 controls, the balance sheet accounts, and there's

 11 immense commonality amongst what people are

 12 looking at in those areas.

 13 To the extent you can coordinate with

 14 FINRA, perhaps the SEC of bank examiners about

 15 what they think of the firm, what they think about

 16 the controls, kinds of things that they've already

 17 done about areas which you're going to cover that

 18 they've already covered. I think that would be

 19 good. You should also note that in the

 20 international banking community this type of

 21 discussion is very common for the SEC, the Fed and

 22 the others to meet with the foreign prudential
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 1 regulators, and to discuss particular firms in

 2 terms of how they're structured, and how they risk

 3 manage their business.

 4 MR. BARNETT: Bill?

 5 MR. DE LEON: You know, this is

 6 obviously a complex question, and there are a lot

 7 of interlinkings between different entities at

 8 firms. I think one thing, though, that should not

 9 be lost is that regardless of whether or not an

 10 FCM is a standalone and that's the only business

 11 it does, whether it's part of a BD, or whether

 12 it's part of a BD that's part of a large bank,

 13 ultimately one of the concerns or basic bedrocks

 14 is that that FCM is walled off to a high degree

 15 and there are the appropriate controls and capital

 16 there. Such that, in the case of an unfortunate

 17 event, there is nothing leaving the box that

 18 shouldn't be, or there's no raiding. And that's

 19 one of the basic things and we saw that during

 20 Lehman where that worked very, very well in the

 21 US, where the BD itself didn't get to pull assets

 22 out.
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 1 However, when you left the US, there was

 2 a lot more confusion about where assets were and

 3 things were going on. So, I would stress that no

 4 matter what structure you come up with, I would

 5 definitely agree coordination is an important

 6 thing, and I'm not discounting that. However, the

 7 view of the FCM should be that there is a high

 8 degree of control and that a more complex FCM

 9 based on its parent in its organization needs to

 10 have controls in place to make sure that nothing

 11 is leaving that shouldn't be, and things are

 12 seg.ed correctly. Because we've seen issues with

 13 that recently, and you know, that's one of our

 14 concerns in terms of whatever structure you come

 15 up with, is that the FCM is viewed as a box.

 16 MR. BARNETT: Okay thank you. Anne?

 17 MS. BAGAN: I don't think any of these

 18 ideas are actually new ideas. There's always been

 19 a lot of coordination between the securities side

 20 and the futures side. Since MF Global, FINRA, and

 21 CME have had more routine communications and

 22 discussions of our firms, which has been
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 1 beneficial I've heard from both sides, with the

 2 relationship managers for the particular firm, the

 3 FINRA people are learning more about the futures

 4 side. The CME people are learning more about the

 5 securities side.

 6 I would want to avoid duplication of

 7 efforts. I think that each side does have its

 8 experts that should focus on their particular

 9 industry, but obviously, there needs to be a lot

 10 of discussion about the firm overall. And CFTC

 11 does that with the SEC, you share the information

 12 with us, we get on the phone with FINRA. So, I

 13 think there is a lot of coordination that goes on.

 14 And as far as if it's FCM only versus

 15 combo firm, from a seg. perspective, what we're

 16 looking at is exactly the same in either kind of

 17 firm. It just becomes a matter of how much of the

 18 firm's other businesses do you take into account.

 19 MR. BARNETT: Okay, Ron?

 20 MR. FILLER: Okay, just to echo what

 21 people are saying. I think we are all somewhat in

 22 agreement, but I think it's also you need to break
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 1 down the question because under joint BD FCM the

 2 financials are identical. It's the same legal

 3 entity, and whatever the financials are from

 4 whether it's the BD or FCM, it's the same,

 5 traditionally; it's the same legal entity. Most

 6 of your larger firms are jointly registered. So,

 7 you have to look at it and break down the

 8 financial aspect of it.

 9 And then the other part of the

 10 examination, as Anne and others have talked about,

 11 there's another part beyond the financials, and

 12 that's the sales practices and other things. When

 13 I was at Lehman, I had no clue what the securities

 14 area was doing, and they had no clue what the

 15 futures area was doing. So, I mean, you've got to

 16 be careful, you have two separate cultures, two

 17 separate divisions.

 18 So, from a sales practice point of view,

 19 I think it's kind of hard to coordinate those

 20 types of things between the NFA and the CME on the

 21 futures side versus FINRA on the broker dealer

 22 side. Because it's two separate distinct, at the
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 1 larger firms, when you get, obviously, when you go

 2 to the smaller firms, even if they're jointly BD

 3 FCMs, you might not have that as much. But, and

 4 the second part of it is, on the futures side, and

 5 it's not part of the broker dealer is, obviously,

 6 the flavor of the day is segregation and that's

 7 strictly a futures component. And so, I think you

 8 need to, on that part of the examination, defer to

 9 CME, NFA and so forth who are doing the seg. type

 10 audits, because they have, by far, the clearer

 11 expertise.

 12 MR. BARNETT: Yvonne.

 13 MS. DOWNS: I would just tell you I

 14 think since I've been both at a BD FCM and a

 15 regulator of such, I would tell you I don't think

 16 the level of knowledge, I think the level of

 17 knowledge needs to be enhanced on both sides.

 18 I don't think if you walk around a firm

 19 and you talk to all the different divisions in a

 20 firm, there isn't the in-depth knowledge of the

 21 differences between them as people perceive on the

 22 outside. And then I think that's true inside the
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 1 houses and I think that's true of the regulators

 2 as well. So, I do think there's a lot of

 3 education that still needs to happen.

 4 I think you have lock up one side, you

 5 have seg. on the other. Those nuances and the

 6 differences between the two are key, in that, I'm

 7 not sure both sides understand it as well as

 8 people perceive.

 9 MR. BARNETT: Thank you.

 10 MR. HOLLOWAY: Gary?

 11 MR. BARNETT: Mark?

 12 MR. HOLLOWAY: People are talking about

 13 coordination and that's, I think, unarguable. I

 14 might think that coordination could enhance

 15 perspectives on two topics in particular. Two

 16 topics that have a lot to do with how well a firm

 17 is run and how secure the firm is.

 18 And the two topics would be technology

 19 and funding. We are all driven, to say the

 20 obvious, by technology, and I think that taking a

 21 broad look across the entity from a control point

 22 of view through the lens of technology is
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 1 particularly important. And again, to say the

 2 obvious, funding and liquidity are the lifeblood

 3 irrespective of all the rules and compliance and

 4 so on and so forth. And funding and liquidity are

 5 absolutely the lifeblood, and I think a more

 6 coordinated approach would allow a more complete

 7 picture.

 8 I will say that the folks from FINRA do

 9 visit us and talk through those subjects as well

 10 as in other subjects, but I think those two topics

 11 I think of are absolutely critical importance in

 12 evaluating the firm.

 13 MR. BARNETT: I'll come back to that in

 14 a second. Was -- Anand?

 15 MS. DOWNS: Can I just add one point? I

 16 think it's also P&L trends. So, it's not just

 17 funding, but P&L trends across the companies.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Anand?

 19 MR. RAMTAHAL: So, yes. Just to comment

 20 a bit on coordination and that has improved

 21 significantly over the last several years

 22 throughout the credit crisis. I think there came
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 1 a realization that none of us has unlimited

 2 resources and we have to leverage off of each

 3 other and understand what risks -- And from my

 4 perspective, regardless of if it's the same legal

 5 entity that's the FCM broker dealer, or a separate

 6 legal entity that's within the same franchise.

 7 And so, we sit and talk about what are

 8 the risks, and what are the interrelated risks?

 9 Does the FCM business drain liquidity from the

 10 broker dealer or vice versa? What's the kind of

 11 business? Is it a proprietary trading business?

 12 Is it a customer facilitation business? Is it an

 13 agency execution only business?

 14 When we talk through the issues and

 15 understand the risks for both sides of the

 16 business, that's where we're able to execute and

 17 execute efficiently. One of the things we've done

 18 at FINRA, at least in the risk oversight group, is

 19 we've done what's called householding. So, to the

 20 extent, there are five FINRA broker dealers. All

 21 of those broker dealers are housed with the same

 22 coordinator. That coordinator must understand the
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 1 risks that are brought into, let's call it the

 2 primary broker dealer, from interrelated

 3 transactions, maybe funding and liquid movement of

 4 resources between those entities. Are there

 5 intercompany transactions that cause the risk

 6 profile of one entity to be higher than the other?

 7 What is the business model of broker

 8 dealer A versus C? So, we want to ensure that we

 9 understand the risks of the entire franchise and

 10 not just the clearing broker because we handle,

 11 primarily, clearing brokers. There could be four

 12 other introducing brokers.

 13 One of the other things we've done is

 14 that we've increased, in a significant way, our

 15 dialogue with not just domestic but foreign

 16 regulators. Because we understand that the London

 17 based broker dealer can bring down the franchise.

 18 And so, we talked to our colleagues at the UK FSA

 19 and, quite frankly, a lot of other foreign

 20 regulators, IRA, Bundesbank, and so on, so that we

 21 understand what's going on in the franchise as a

 22 whole, not just domestically, but internationally
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 1 as well.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Great. Okay, so I am

 3 going to reframe a piece of what everybody -- so,

 4 we heard lock up versus seg. and funding and

 5 liquidity and understanding the risk. I want to

 6 throw into the foreign SEC and futures, a piece of

 7 what's the risk. I want to talk about what about

 8 the non-regulated activity and affiliates? I want

 9 to roll that into the conversation.

 10 So, how do you take those into account?

 11 If I have prop trading in the FCM, I could have it

 12 at an affiliate that is almost standalone FCM,

 13 separated from some heavy financing that's going

 14 on at a parent, or the prop trading's at the

 15 parent, or something of that sort. To what extent

 16 do you look at that package of risk?

 17 Bill.

 18 MR. TIRRELL: I think you have to keep

 19 in mind the fact that we are servicing clients.

 20 And those clients have many needs, and we cross

 21 sell across many of the entities by product and

 22 such. So, in today's world, although tomorrow it
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 1 will be different, you do have clients that are

 2 looking for protections and dealing in swaps and

 3 so on, and going to non-regulated entities. And

 4 there is that inter-relationship across all the

 5 various entities within an organization, that you

 6 need, then, to evaluate the risk associated with

 7 that client, regardless of the legal entity, as

 8 well as look at it from a legal entity standpoint.

 9 So, again, I think the risk management

 10 of the organization, their ability to look at that

 11 risk holistically, as well as isolate that risk, I

 12 think is critical. And picking up on what Anand

 13 and some others have been saying also, I think in

 14 looking at the organization kind of holistically

 15 across these different jurisdictions, I think is

 16 critical, because you may not have a complete view

 17 that you think you have. And, therefore, sharing

 18 in the information across, I think, is critical.

 19 Especially with the large players and the large

 20 clients, the ones that have the potential to cause

 21 harm, not only to a particular organization but to

 22 the industry itself.
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 1 But, I think you're also need to

 2 understand that from a back office standpoint, a

 3 lot of this is interrelated as well, okay?

 4 Because we talk about lock up versus secured. The

 5 collateral that's moving between is usually using

 6 the security side back office in order to do

 7 segregation as part of your daily lock up. So, to

 8 think of those as being different, I think is a

 9 mistake.

 10 Financing that you're providing the

 11 clients across their products, across the

 12 different organization, is a lot of times

 13 interrelated and it goes through a lot of times

 14 the security side of the broker dealer, through

 15 your repos and so on. So, to think that they're

 16 not interrelated; I think is also selling yourself

 17 short to a certain extent.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Others? Okay.

 19 MR. FLOWERS: I think that it's

 20 important --

 21 MR. BARNETT: Go ahead.

 22 MR. FLOWERS: We're assessing the risk
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 1 in the totality of the entity. As Bill was saying

 2 that you can't just look at the broker dealer

 3 side, there may be a lot of other non-regulated

 4 entities that also provide the funding that is

 5 part of the transaction. I think that looking at

 6 them on an independent basis, I think, is an

 7 error. I think that you really need to assess it

 8 on a group basis and see the overall effect on the

 9 financial statements. Because it's not just that

 10 putting it in the box for the customer seg. in the

 11 box and you're done, no, you've got the whole

 12 firm, the financials for the whole firm to be

 13 evaluated.

 14 And I think that the assessment at that

 15 level is critical for the overall evaluation, and

 16 it very much ties back to the fraud triangle if we

 17 stated that the rationalization level, we've got

 18 that for this particular FCM, I think of that

 19 versus the other transactions that the firm has.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Anyone else?

 21 I want to move to another question. Okay.

 22 Alright so, we're talking, we'll move to the
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 1 second part of the discussion, but right now we've

 2 been talking about SRO examination of members. I

 3 want to get your thoughts on the standards and

 4 procedures that you might think of having in place

 5 as part of a programmatic examination program.

 6 For instance, how do we assure that the

 7 program is and remains effective? Let's start

 8 there I guess. How can we help assure that

 9 programs are and remain effective? For instance,

 10 currently and then maybe on an ongoing basis, that

 11 it stays up with the changes that are going on in

 12 the accounting world. Thoughts?

 13 Bill?

 14 MR. TIRRELL: Sorry, I keep going first

 15 here. As I mentioned at the opening, we have a

 16 common cause here to make sure that the industry

 17 is good for our clients, and that we're protecting

 18 the clients' assets, and creating a trust factor

 19 that allows us to grow this industry. So, I think

 20 there's also a great deal of expertise within the

 21 industry and some of the organizations, industry

 22 organizations, that can be leveraged for that
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 1 knowledge and expertise in order to remain current

 2 with products, with different relationships, and

 3 so on.

 4 And, I would encourage the regulators to

 5 engage those organizations in order to have that

 6 knowledge sharing that would enable to keep the

 7 examinations current, up to speed with technology,

 8 because I think there's a, I would estimate almost

 9 a five year gap between public and private, if you

 10 will. So, I think there are a lot of things that

 11 can be learned from the industry because at the

 12 end of the day, we want to keep this industry safe

 13 for the clients. We want to build this on, from a

 14 reputational standpoint. We can't afford to have

 15 any of these black marks that drive out clients

 16 into other regimes and so on.

 17 So, I would encourage you to tap into a

 18 lot of this expertise that's out there across the

 19 accounting firms, as well as just the

 20 organizations themselves.

 21 MR. BARNETT: Sam, do you have thoughts

 22 in this area?
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 1 MR. TELZER: I think Bill's made a lot

 2 of very good points on the expertise because one

 3 of the issues, I think, was brought up earlier is

 4 there is a cost to all of this versus the benefit

 5 that comes out of it.

 6 When you look at the fact that there's a

 7 client based trust given to the industry, the

 8 client's giving the FCM or the broker dealer cash,

 9 they should have an expectation that cash will be

 10 under the proper care of that regulated entity.

 11 So, the question then becomes, how do you make

 12 sure regulation, whether it be through the core

 13 regulator, the SRO, the independent auditor,

 14 doesn't come at such a high cost that it becomes

 15 cost prohibitive to give that level of assurance?

 16 Where the technology stands now, I can't

 17 comment on what Bill said, whether it's five years

 18 or a different gap, but there's certainly a role

 19 here where looking at how the examination is done,

 20 the frequency of the examination, the background

 21 and competency of the examiner, I think, is all

 22 part of that mix, because in order to be effective
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 1 you need to understand the organization,

 2 understand what they're doing, understand how they

 3 accomplish the procedures within that

 4 organization. That will then lend itself to a

 5 higher level of confidence. Because without that

 6 level of confidence, clients will not bring the

 7 money in, and the markets will start to suffer.

 8 MR. BARNETT: Steve, could you give some

 9 thoughts, express some thoughts about how to

 10 assure the program remains effective?

 11 MR. RICHARDS: Well, what we do at the

 12 Board, and again, we don't have any regulatory

 13 authority of the auditors of the FCMs, is we have

 14 -- it's about a process. And it's about having a

 15 process at the highest level to evaluate evolution

 16 in who your constituent is.

 17 So, we have a process both in our

 18 inspection division and our risk analysis division

 19 by which, we want to make sure we're staying up to

 20 date on both the technology aspect, and also how

 21 is that technology affecting how the audit is

 22 done. So, our examination programs can constantly
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 1 be updated to make sure that we are looking at

 2 what is most valuable.

 3 And as technology has made the world a

 4 flatter place, not only looking at the particular

 5 firm, but what are its impacts because a lot of

 6 the work is overseas now. When I say that, so any

 7 US multinational, there's a US audit firm, but a

 8 lot of the work is being done by its affiliates.

 9 Well, not looking at those independently, but

 10 looking at those top down, and saying, for this

 11 particular client what's it look like across the

 12 organization, across the globe? So, that's an

 13 example when I say the evolution.

 14 You know, I think when we first got

 15 started a decade ago, it was let's get this up and

 16 running and look at these individually. But as

 17 we've gotten more sophisticated in our ability to

 18 identify risk and look at things, I think you have

 19 to have that process to pick up that knowledge and

 20 incorporate it into your inspection or, in this

 21 case, examination programs. So, I think you have

 22 to have processes at the right level to drive
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 1 accountability.

 2 MR. RAMTAHAL: So, so, Anand Ramtahal,

 3 from FINRA. We're presently in the midst of a

 4 multi-year program change which is called our risk

 5 platform redesign, for exactly the reason that you

 6 asked the question. And so, what, effectively

 7 what we're doing here is bringing all of the

 8 relevant data and information from various sources

 9 on to a single platform, so, that the staff can

 10 effectively prioritize the risk. It gives them

 11 more timely information, electronic information

 12 and structured data. It pulls in information

 13 that, for example, our office of risk collects and

 14 analyzes and brings right on to the platform.

 15 So, we're looking to support a more

 16 dynamic risk based regulatory program that focuses

 17 on the right areas and to ensure that our program

 18 is current, it's relevant, it's assessing and

 19 addressing the risks based on the market

 20 environment, the profile of the firm, it's

 21 regulatory history, and input of data from various

 22 independent sources as well.
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Off again. We'll get to

 2 you in a second. Others over here while we're

 3 waiting for this side to -- Mike.

 4 MR. JAMROZ: Mike Jamroz. I'm just

 5 going to supplement what Bill said by first

 6 saying, that while I was at the SEC, we did with

 7 some frequency actually go to the firms, for

 8 example, if we were trying to determine what

 9 capital charges should be for whatever the product

 10 is, perhaps new products, we would visit the

 11 firms. I don't know that I would call it

 12 training, but it would spend full day sessions

 13 learning about how the products trade. I can't

 14 say that I was competent enough to become a trader

 15 but I certainly learned a lot more about it than I

 16 did going into those sessions.

 17 The other thing I was going to mention

 18 is I know, and I'm not just speaking for my firm,

 19 I'm sure the other accounting firms have done the

 20 same thing, is provided training to FINRA or the

 21 SEC examiners, in some cases with respect to some

 22 of the industry topics, but more frequently
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 1 training with respect to how just to audit basic

 2 blocking and tackling and audit procedures. How

 3 audit work papers should be used, reviewed,

 4 supervised, things like that, and I don't know if

 5 that's something you've considered or done but

 6 it's something I'm sure the firms would provide.

 7 MR. PICCOLI: So, Mike, you're sort of

 8 relaying to maybe some type of quality control

 9 program and helping to establish that? Is that

 10 what you're getting at?

 11 MR. JAMROZ: No, I think it's really

 12 kind of a supplement to Bill's point of the taking

 13 advantage of the training that's available, both,

 14 not only at the industry firms, but the accounting

 15 firms as well.

 16 MR. BARNETT: Are we live over there?

 17 MR. FILLER: I think Steve raised a very

 18 important point and needs to be discussed or

 19 reviewed by the Commission, and that is the world

 20 we have, especially for the larger firms, is a

 21 global one. And as Bill mentioned earlier, to me

 22 one of the most valuable lessons we learned from
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 1 Lehman is that the system worked fairly well here

 2 in the US, but when outside the US, especially

 3 with respect to customer protection, the assets,

 4 they're still being tied up for almost four years

 5 later.

 6 And I know we're not supposed to talk

 7 about the merits of MF Global or Peregrine but

 8 those were domestic issues, but even MF Global has

 9 part of its issues is this what 800 million

 10 dollars that's sitting in London and so forth.

 11 So, I think it's part of the examination process,

 12 are we focusing or should be only focusing on what

 13 takes place here in the US, from that perspective,

 14 but even with respect to the globalization part of

 15 it, our US persons are trading all over the world.

 16 And whether or not the examinations

 17 should be expanded or not to cover that type of

 18 trading and where the monies is sitting and so

 19 forth, should also be addressed.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Dan.

 21 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll, NFA. And

 22 maybe this is self-evident but I think that each
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 1 sort of stake holder in the process, so that would

 2 be the industry SROs, public accounting industry,

 3 and government regulators, we all have to realize

 4 that the business and technology and everything

 5 else is continually evolving.

 6 So, I don't think what any of us ever

 7 want to do is try to come up with some magic

 8 bullet, that if we just do this it'll make

 9 everything go away, and then we can be on cruise

 10 control. I think all of us have to have

 11 reflective sort of self-examination of saying,

 12 what is it that keeps us from sleeping well at

 13 night? Is there anything we're missing here? And

 14 you have to guard against the fact of saying, well

 15 we're only looking at this every three years, it's

 16 really something that we have to do each and every

 17 day. And it might seem self-evident, but I think

 18 we all have to make ourselves do that.

 19 MR. BARNETT: Bill.

 20 MR. DE LEON: Bill De Leon, PIMCO. And

 21 I would just, going back to what Ron brought up,

 22 and what I had mentioned earlier, when I was
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 1 talking about the fact that there should be a box

 2 for each FCM, is not referring to the fact that we

 3 should not be thinking about the global entity and

 4 all the inner linkages. I was accentuating the

 5 fact, though, that because of those, the box needs

 6 to be tighter, and more structured such that for

 7 more complex, or less complex, you still know

 8 what's where.

 9 So, that's going back to the point about

 10 Lehman, is, and when you look at any FCM, that you

 11 know what's in it, where it is, and that it's

 12 controlled whether it be a single standalone FCM,

 13 or a multinational part of a BD, part of a bank.

 14 You need to know, well where are the client

 15 assets? How are they controlled? And if

 16 something happens, outside of that FCM, because

 17 it's the broker dealer, it's the bank; it's a non

 18 US part of the bank, what happens and what are

 19 those inner linkages? That may be too complex no

 20 matter how much coordination there is. Both here

 21 in the US and with global regulators, you need to

 22 make sure that you understand what's going on in
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 1 the FCM, and the protection there and the controls

 2 there.

 3 I just want to say that I'm not

 4 discounting the importance of the other things. I

 5 just want to stress that ultimately you need to

 6 know what is going on in the FCM and the right

 7 controls, so that things don't magically leave.

 8 MR. BARNETT: Okay, thank you. Others?

 9 Okay. So, let me go back to the complexity issue,

 10 I guess. And also the risk or control emphasis

 11 that's been, although balanced, but going back to

 12 what we've heard throughout the discussion. You

 13 know, our rules require that we're on a -- looking

 14 at every FCM on a nine to fifteen month cycle,

 15 right? But every nine to fifteen months, every

 16 one of them has to be looked at. And trying to

 17 dovetail that with a more risk based examination

 18 approach, is that how, when you look at entities

 19 on a risk basis, that you think it's conceivable

 20 that we would look at them every year and every

 21 nine to fifteen months we'd look at every one of

 22 115 or 16 FCMs that we have?
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 1 What is your reaction to that?

 2 MS. BAGAN: Gary.

 3 MR. BARNETT: Anne?

 4 MS. BAGAN: Anne Bagan, CME. As I

 5 mentioned earlier, the regulatory audit function

 6 is part of our Clearing House. So, I think it's

 7 critical for us to keep on that schedule as far as

 8 part of our risk management processes.

 9 That being said, our audits are getting

 10 a lot more complicated and are taking a lot more

 11 time. We're seeing that we have five months to do

 12 an audit, and we're seeing more and more firms

 13 that are going to that five month date just

 14 because of the complexity of all the issues that

 15 are coming up, regulatory changes, that kind of

 16 thing. But I still would advocate for the nine to

 17 fifteen month period. I wouldn't want to go to

 18 the three year period.

 19 MR. BARNETT: Dan?

 20 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll, and I would

 21 wholeheartedly agree with Anne. I think, at this

 22 point, I wouldn't want to go visit FCMs less
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 1 frequently than we do now. I think one thing in

 2 both the CME and NFA have been talking about this

 3 is, is the idea of you don't have to do a complete

 4 audit with every module every time you go visit a

 5 firm.

 6 So, as a complementary thing to the

 7 yearly full audit, periodic, unannounced spot

 8 checks can be very helpful too. And you're not

 9 going to go in and look at everything every time

 10 you do that, but it keeps everybody on their toes.

 11 It helps ensure that you got more recent

 12 information. But I think, that at this point,

 13 that I wouldn't be in favor of going to something

 14 where it might be every two or three years before

 15 we would actually do an examination at an FCM.

 16 MR. BARNETT: When you talk about spot

 17 checks, are we talking about spot checks and

 18 account balances, or spot check seg. in the middle

 19 of the month, that sort of thing? Are we talking

 20 about other kinds of elements as well, and in my

 21 mind I'm thinking about, again, the risk profile

 22 of a firm. Would that weigh in on what you look
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 1 for, or what are you thinking?

 2 MR. DRISCOLL: Sure. It would weigh in,

 3 and I think we really do already go through a risk

 4 evaluation process to determine scopes and what

 5 areas we'll concentrate on. And obviously, today,

 6 when we're talking about risks, we're talking more

 7 about financial segregation, secured amount type

 8 of risk, but there's other risk as well.

 9 There's sales practice risk, there could

 10 be trading risk, and I think that when you go do

 11 these spot checks, I think that you might look at

 12 something different each time you go in. But you

 13 would take into consideration the risk profile in

 14 doing that.

 15 MS. BAGAN: Anne Bagan. I just want to

 16 add that the audit process is only one component

 17 of the whole risk package. We have an entire risk

 18 department within our Clearing House that is

 19 monitoring the firms on a daily basis for their

 20 trading activities. And that goes into helping us

 21 determine when we need to go into a firm more

 22 often.
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 1 So, that type of review is being done.

 2 But I agree with Dan that our spot checks would

 3 focus on customer funds.

 4 MR. BARNETT: Yvonne?

 5 MS. DOWNS: Well I just heard something

 6 that surprised me, and that is that we think we

 7 have to spot check sales practice. I don't agree

 8 with that. I think we have to focus on the core,

 9 that the assets are there, and that the capital is

 10 there. I think spot checking or doing random

 11 audits of sales practice is not the focus for

 12 protecting our customers. I think our customers

 13 want to know where their assets are.

 14 MR. DRISCOLL: So, I don't want this to

 15 be point, counter point here between the two of

 16 us. But you know, and NFA is in a slightly

 17 different perspective than the CME here because we

 18 have 3500 members, some of them don't even hold

 19 customer funds but might pose significant risk to

 20 the public.

 21 So, that's what I'm talking about here.

 22 I think that certainly with regard to FCMs holding
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 1 customer funds, I think the emphasis would be on

 2 looking at seg.

 3 MR. BARNETT: Howard?

 4 MR. ROTHMAN: I won't get into their

 5 argument, but I will say this. That, and I think

 6 it's the same for the regulator that comes in once

 7 a year, or the firm, there's a certain level of

 8 fatigue that sets in on an audit if it's long and

 9 drawn out and such. And I think that, obviously,

 10 we've all experienced long ones. We've all

 11 experienced short ones. But, the short audits,

 12 maybe they're pinpointed; maybe they're just on a

 13 topic of segregation for a day or two. It seems

 14 like there is pivoted attention from the firm and

 15 from the auditors to deal with that matter and get

 16 it to a closure.

 17 And I just think there's more utility

 18 on, not that I want to advocate or go on record

 19 that I want more audits, but I think that if you

 20 could possibly take the annual audit and maybe

 21 tone it down in size, but substitute other smaller

 22 audits, I think firms and regulator would, I think
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 1 they would get better results totally. It's just,

 2 that there is a lack, I guess, a problem with long

 3 audits of after a certain point there's

 4 diminishing returns for everybody.

 5 MR. BARNETT: Bill.

 6 MR. TIRRELL: I would kind of lean

 7 towards supporting an audit on a regular basis as

 8 well. Not because I like the pain and suffering

 9 but, more so because, I think it, again, from the

 10 firm's perspective, confirms the processes and

 11 control aspects and so on. And there is turnover

 12 in the firms. And I think it's important to

 13 recognize that even the best of shops, as they

 14 have experienced turnover, may have some

 15 shortfalls and shortcomings. And it's a good way

 16 of checking that.

 17 I would also, though, comment on the

 18 fact that any exam that takes five months is

 19 almost irrelevant by the time it's done. Let's

 20 look at all the things that are taking place, all

 21 the added transparency, the move towards

 22 automation of doing daily comparisons and so on.
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 1 That greatly should diminish the amount of time

 2 that we would spend on an audit. If we want to do

 3 spot checks and send a SWAT team in there, that

 4 SWAT team should be very experienced as far as the

 5 technology that the firm uses, what they want to

 6 focus in on, get in, review it, and then get out

 7 and move on.

 8 We keep talking there's limited

 9 resources across all the organizations, across all

 10 the regulators, to have teams of auditors spending

 11 five months at an organization, I think, is, by

 12 the time you get done with that, not only is it

 13 exhausting for the firm, and use a lot of

 14 resources, but you're now doing a history lesson

 15 of things that are already changed, not only

 16 within the firm, but also within the industry.

 17 So, you know, I think that we need to be

 18 a little bit smarter about how we do it. Again,

 19 I'll go back to my example before, not using swift

 20 messages to get balances yesterday or last month

 21 end, or whatever else, but to ask for hard copy

 22 documents, bank statements, and going through and
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 1 doing 50 of them, that's going to take weeks and

 2 weeks of time, is that really a good use of

 3 resources? Is that something that we want to

 4 encourage and continue?

 5 I just think that you're taking away

 6 from the audit itself when you're tying down the

 7 firms, and the way the firms view that, both from

 8 the business side, especially when they just see

 9 this is a, are you kidding me? This is what they

 10 want? And then, from a resource standpoint, we

 11 have to go back and draw things out of warehouses

 12 now, or the systems no longer have that available,

 13 and to pull that information, because now it's the

 14 final review, it's the four and a half month and

 15 they're trying to close out. And now they want to

 16 go back and ask a question about something that

 17 happened six months ago.

 18 What I think, there's a balancing act

 19 that needs to take place here.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Right, and understanding

 21 the principles, I guess, under the balancing, I

 22 mean, if they're all short term spot checks that
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 1 wouldn't work either right? So, how do we

 2 consider for?

 3 MR. TIRRELL: Again, this goes back, we

 4 talked about culture; we talked about the

 5 competency of the processes, the controls, the

 6 procedures, the individuals and so on. So, as you

 7 develop a profile of the firm, what have we looked

 8 at, and where do we feel that was comfortable?

 9 Are they into new businesses? Was there turnover

 10 in particular areas?

 11 So, this is where you send your SWAT

 12 team in to take a look at those things based on

 13 what is relevant to that firm from risk

 14 standpoint, what's changed, and what have I not

 15 looked at before, and so on. And I would even

 16 suggest to you that part of this is almost looking

 17 at what I mentioned earlier as far as best

 18 practice. I look at examiners coming in thinking

 19 that they've spent most of their careers looking

 20 at other firms, getting a lot of experience in the

 21 way firms do things.

 22 I'd like to know where I am on that
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 1 spectrum. Am I good? Bad? In the middle? Cause

 2 I can tell you from a peer pressure, our firm

 3 would like to know and I think most firms would

 4 like to know if you're on that scale of one to

 5 ten, you're a three; you want to improve your

 6 processes because your clients are going to expect

 7 more. And from a competitive standpoint, the firm

 8 that's on top of that, providing the best

 9 protection to the clients, have a better chance of

 10 winning over those clients and continuing that

 11 relationship.

 12 So, I want to know where I am in that.

 13 And some of the things the SEC is doing with their

 14 inspection team, where it's not an exam; you don't

 15 have that stigma of a finding of someone, makes it

 16 very easy for firms to make changes to their

 17 processes, because, again, we're trying to do the

 18 right thing. Ninety-nine percent of us are trying

 19 to do the right thing.

 20 So, if you go in with the attitude that

 21 we're all trying to do the right thing, we're

 22 going to find that one percent and hopefully,
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 1 collectively, we can squash that before it becomes

 2 an issue. But we're all trying to do the right

 3 thing and we want to be the best. I want a gold

 4 medal, all right? And I want to be the best at

 5 what we do, because that helps my clients, and

 6 that helps my front office attract business.

 7 So to that extent, yes, I can work with

 8 the examiners, but it's not a one-way street.

 9 MR. PICCOLI: So, Bill, you're almost

 10 suggesting the report that comes out from the

 11 exam, perhaps maybe there's a scale, you know.

 12 Okay, here's best practice. Here's where you come

 13 out with respect to best practice, and that may be

 14 a helpful tool that you can then take to your

 15 management. Maybe you need more compliance

 16 people. Well, here's where we are on the scale;

 17 we're four best practices of ten, we really need

 18 to beef up this area.

 19 MR. TIRRELL: Absolutely, and I would

 20 suggest to you as we look at some of the core

 21 competencies that we talked about, the blocking

 22 and tackling, the separation of duties,
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 1 supervision, so on and so forth, that that becomes

 2 part of that, you know. Although somewhat

 3 subjective, I understand that. We have to work

 4 through some of that. But, yes, to look at that

 5 overall and say, you know, from a one to ten, this

 6 is where your firm is. And I would say, you know,

 7 that also would drive, say, some of your findings.

 8 If you're a two, as part of your separation of

 9 duties, for instance, well, maybe that should be

 10 an exam finding.

 11 MR. PICCOLI: Right.

 12 MR. TIRRELL: If you're a four, maybe

 13 your recommendation to do something, but at that

 14 level I think it drives some of the reaction from

 15 the exam itself so that it helps you, you know,

 16 gauge where you need to do things so that, again,

 17 I want to be a ten all the time.

 18 MR. PICCOLI: Yeah. So, it's almost

 19 changing the way the reports -- right now the

 20 reports are very much finding oriented. Where

 21 here is the finding issue involved, how did you

 22 rectify that? And modifying that to more of okay,
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 1 here is the root cause, or here's what the, you

 2 know, underlying issue is. Here's where you folks

 3 stand versus the industry, versus best practices

 4 in trying to make it more of a, I don't want to

 5 say a conversational type report, but more of a,

 6 you know, here's where you stand. Here are the

 7 issues. Here's the core control concerns that

 8 need to be focused on, and here's where you stand

 9 versus others.

 10 MR. TIRRELL: Absolutely. Again, I

 11 think that adds a lot more value than -- I mean,

 12 two years ago I spent countless hours arguing

 13 about a couple of thousand dollars because we

 14 didn't tie out to something. It's like, come on

 15 guys. We've got about a billion dollars of excess

 16 in secured, and you're arguing with me countless

 17 hours now, demanding documentations for a couple

 18 of thousand dollars. So that's what, to me,

 19 diminishes the whole exam process; when you get

 20 into that stuff and there's nothing that the firm

 21 is taking away other than the fact that you look

 22 at this as a burden more then a help.
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Anyone else?

 2 I want to go back to the -- oh, go ahead.

 3 MR. RAMTAHAL: Yeah, so going to our

 4 exam -- and I'm Anand Ramtahal from FINRA, going

 5 through our exam program. We look at every

 6 broker-dealer that holds customer assets every

 7 year, and it's not likely that that cycle will

 8 change, at least for those types of

 9 broker-dealers. But a big part of what we do --

 10 so, it doesn't necessarily mean if you understand

 11 the risks at a given broker-dealer that a very

 12 detailed review of the reserve formula computation

 13 may be necessary because we understand what the

 14 firm's proficiency is when it comes to the

 15 customer protection rule. And its wire

 16 surveillance protection and the relationships we

 17 build with firms are so very important.

 18 So, the coordinators are responsible for

 19 understanding the firm's business model, for

 20 understanding the financial statements, the

 21 balance sheet, the revenue drivers, for being up

 22 to date with any changes in the firm's business
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 1 model, and what's going on in the marketplace that

 2 might be impacting the firm. What are we hearing

 3 from other regulators? What are we hearing from

 4 the firms when we meet with them? Many of our

 5 firms, we meet with them every quarter, some of

 6 them less frequently. What do we know about

 7 turnover, to Bill's point? What do we know about

 8 the quality of the management? What are their

 9 loss trends? And sometimes we put firms on

 10 alert-reporting, and what does that trigger? We

 11 monitor them more frequently. We ask for

 12 weekly-capital computation or reserve-formula

 13 computations. But we take all of those things

 14 into consideration in scoping the exam, and

 15 maintaining the relationship not just throughout

 16 the year, but when you're onsite conducting an

 17 examination, we don't want to be at a firm one day

 18 more than we'd like to be there.

 19 So, it's very important on the

 20 relationship side with regards to letting firms

 21 know how they did. I make it a point of telling

 22 the staff, look, we may not put it in an exam
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 1 report, but you have a responsibility. We're not

 2 only there to tell firms that they don't

 3 understand the implications of a certain product

 4 on net capital if they started trading this

 5 product. But we're there to tell them when

 6 they've got a good system, process, and quality

 7 staff in place, and they should hear that. It's a

 8 big part of what we do is about relationship, and

 9 when we build productive relationships, we get all

 10 of the cooperation that we expect from our member

 11 firms. We get a free flow of information from

 12 them.

 13 The other thing is to supplement what we

 14 do and make it more efficient is we've been

 15 engaged in collecting data independently from our

 16 firms. And so, for example right now we have

 17 what's -- and it started several years -- what we

 18 call our automated exam program. And what we do,

 19 we go out to clearing firms. Right now there are

 20 about 58 of them participating voluntarily. Mind

 21 you, we do have rules that we can demand the

 22 information -- volunteering, 58 firms onboard and
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 1 another 12 or 15 or so that will come onboard onto

 2 this platform this year. We get a lot of

 3 information and, you know, customer margin debits,

 4 customer trial balance, their allocation system

 5 for the reserve formula, inventory positions,

 6 stock borrow, stock loan, reverse refill. We use

 7 that information internally to determine risk and

 8 to design to scope of our program. The other

 9 thing we do is we get data on firm positions

 10 independently from the DTCC, and we compare that

 11 to what we get from the firms. It's a significant

 12 way for us to approach analyzing a firm and

 13 determining risk and scoping our exams, and that

 14 really helps to build, ultimately, you know, the

 15 productive relationship we seek to have with our

 16 firms.

 17 The other things we do. I mean, we have

 18 the ability to go in and do, if we identify an

 19 issue, or if we think there's an industry-wide

 20 issue, we could do a cause exam. We could go and

 21 do sweep examinations. At times, we've done

 22 thematic examinations. So, our colleagues on the
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 1 sales- practice side do a lot of these same very

 2 things. So, you know, it helps to know the firm

 3 to understand the risks, to use data smartly, to

 4 get independent data through comparisons and scope

 5 the exam, and ultimately that builds the good

 6 productive examination program and working

 7 relationship with our members.

 8 MS. FLAHERTY: Eileen Flaherty. And

 9 that sounds really good and, Anne, what you're

 10 saying, you're there for five months, and your

 11 team is probably there for a good couple months,

 12 and there may be other groups that come in

 13 simultaneously, but not really, necessarily,

 14 working together. Is there a reason why the

 15 audits couldn't be coordinated? Wouldn't that

 16 create some efficiencies and focus?

 17 MR. RAMTAHAL: We tried -- right now at

 18 FINRA we coordinate between the financial

 19 operational group, so internally we do coordinate

 20 -- so I wanted to make that clear -- and our

 21 colleagues at the district, sales practice. We do

 22 talk to our colleagues at the other regulators,
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 1 whether it's the SEC, the CFTC, the NFA, when we

 2 are planning an exam. We coordinate in one

 3 respect, at least, in that we talk about the scope

 4 of our exams, and we ensure that no two regulators

 5 are duplicating efforts. We do that with the SEC,

 6 as well. Now, I don't think FINRA can dictate how

 7 another independent SRO or DSRO plan their program

 8 out in a given year to ensure that it's

 9 coordinated so that we're onsite at the same time.

 10 That would be outside of the scope of what we can

 11 do. Is it a good suggestion, good point?

 12 Perhaps. I think regulators, in that regard,

 13 would have to work together.

 14 MS. BAGAN: Yeah, Eileen, we have tried

 15 doing that in the past so that we go in at the

 16 same time. We've actually gotten some negative

 17 feedback on that, that there's just too many

 18 auditors in the building at the same time. And

 19 there are scheduling issues between what FINRA's

 20 planning versus the time constraints that we're

 21 under, too. So, we would love to be able to do

 22 that, if possible. Unfortunately, a lot of times
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 1 it's not.

 2 MR. RAMTAHAL: We did listen to the

 3 industry in that regard and that in the past our

 4 sales practice reviews weren't coordinated with

 5 the financial operational reviews, and we

 6 recognized that that was becoming burdensome to

 7 our members, and so whenever there's a joint

 8 SB/FINOP review, it's always coordinated.

 9 MR. RICHARDS: Yes, one other point

 10 before we leave the subject is no two -- the

 11 people you're regulating, no two firms are exactly

 12 the same, so the ability to try to segment that

 13 population to say where does the highest risk lie?

 14 Like, so in our world, there are a handful of

 15 firms that audit 98, 99 percent of the market cap

 16 in the United States. They're on a different

 17 inspection cycle than the rest, even though the

 18 rest represent several hundred thousand more

 19 firms. And so, I think the ability to both look

 20 and say well, how frequent when you're looking at

 21 the underlying risk and the nature of the

 22 engagement. I think those are two things to
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 1 consider as you were thinking about and

 2 bifurcating, if you can bifurcate, the population

 3 of who you're regulating to really try to get at

 4 the highest risk relative to customer protection,

 5 or in our case, investor protection.

 6 MR. BARNETT: Thank you.

 7 MR. FLOWERS: Gary, and adding onto

 8 Steve's point, the reality is that when you go

 9 through your spot checks, so to speak, we're

 10 talking about spot checks as substantive type

 11 work. I'd recommend that certainly look at your

 12 internal control structure, and to the extent that

 13 you have specific controls, certain fundamental

 14 controls, that you're actually testing those ones

 15 on a spot-check basis because if they build up,

 16 they support the ability to control the firm. I

 17 think that that's more of an ongoing process that

 18 needs to be evaluated, as opposed to just doing

 19 some standard tests to ensure that the box is

 20 properly coordinated and nothing escapes. I think

 21 it's clearly important that they test those

 22 controls periodically, and I think a spot check is
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 1 excellent for that.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Great. Thank you. I want

 3 to go back to the CPA question again, one more

 4 time. Then we'll move into looking more at us, at

 5 the Commission. The question on the CPA is what

 6 internal control procedure should the external CPA

 7 perform and include as part of its internal

 8 control opinion? Sam, do you have a thought

 9 there? Oh, Rich, go ahead. All right. You had

 10 your hand up. I didn't see it.

 11 MR. FLOWERS: That's all right.

 12 MR. BARNETT: But I'm going to get you,

 13 Sam. Okay.

 14 MR. FLOWERS: I think the assessment of

 15 the internal control environment is paramount that

 16 the, you know, at the beginning of the audit and

 17 then, throughout the audit, and up to the actual

 18 sign-off date. But the extent that you've

 19 assessed the control environment, you've broken

 20 down the types of controls, and that you've

 21 identified those which you're going to place more

 22 reliance upon. And if they satisfy the control
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 1 objectives, I think those ones should be tested.

 2 To the extent that there's some specific controls,

 3 they might not be tested basis of materiality. In

 4 terms of time spent on that, it might not result

 5 in an actual benefit, but if you can see that

 6 certain fundamental controls or monitoring

 7 controls are overriding those specific controls, I

 8 think that it's now an acceptable process that's

 9 approved by the PCAOB to allow us to test it

 10 accordingly.

 11 MR. BARNETT: Sam?

 12 MR. TELZER: Sam Telzer. I want to

 13 build on what Rich said because I think it's

 14 actually very relevant. Internal controls assist

 15 at a point in time as part of the audit process.

 16 So, understanding what the controls are and how

 17 they affect whether or not the financial

 18 statements could be misstated is the way the

 19 external CPA looks at the audit of, whether it be

 20 a broker-dealer, an FCM, or indeed, any commercial

 21 enterprise. This is a very common issue. So, the

 22 issue of the CPA's responsibility internal control
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 1 is to really understand what is the entity? What

 2 is its environment? Now we're dealing in this

 3 forum with a futures dealer, so futures dealer has

 4 a set of regulations to comply with. It has

 5 practices and procedures it should follow. It has

 6 an internal control structure that management is

 7 charged with establishing to ensure that there is

 8 not a material misstatement in the financial

 9 statements or the supplemental schedules.

 10 But I want to go back to something

 11 someone on the panel said earlier is that this is

 12 a point in time once a year. And that does not

 13 mean that you can take that control environment

 14 and extend it to some future date. To the extent

 15 that there's an additional or incremental

 16 responsibility, that has to be evaluated against

 17 the existing auditing standards. That's where I

 18 see there's a very valuable role for an SRO or the

 19 Commission or the regulators to play because they

 20 actually help enhance the control environment by

 21 doing the spot checks, by doing the regular exams.

 22 And then also, within a larger
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 1 enterprise, what role internal audit plays because

 2 that's not something that's been talked about, and

 3 how internal audit looks at the control

 4 environment and how they establish the liability

 5 of that control environment. So, I think there's

 6 a number of different factors that a CPA looks at

 7 when they're doing an audit. They all have to

 8 come together in order to determine whether or not

 9 there are controls and whether or not there are

 10 reliable controls that actually promote the

 11 ability to have financial statements that are not

 12 materially misstated.

 13 MR. PICCOLI: Sam, you're talking about

 14 point-in- time testing, so I'll throw the question

 15 out there. Why not look at controls throughout

 16 the year? You know, similar to a SOx type review,

 17 it's got to be throughout the year. It's not just

 18 at that one point in time that they've got to make

 19 sure that they signed off on everything and

 20 they've dotted the I's and crossed the T's.

 21 MR. YERES: Kevin, thank you. I think,

 22 though, there's two pieces to a SOx level
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 1 environment, which is one, management in a SOx

 2 environment is usually putting their own view of

 3 the control structure on the table, and then the

 4 CPA opines on what management is saying. And so,

 5 if SOx is the right framework -- I'm not making a

 6 judgment if it is or is not -- but if SOx is the

 7 right framework, then there's some significant

 8 issues that are not in the rules right now that

 9 would need to be addressed. And certainly that

 10 gets to a question of do you impose a standard on

 11 FCMs that right now is not in the broker-dealer

 12 world that may not be in other regulated

 13 environment worlds?

 14 So, I think, ultimately, if the question

 15 is do the customers know that their money is being

 16 safeguarded, I think that whether or not SOx

 17 accomplishes that is an open question that would

 18 need to be evaluated for the benefit of whether or

 19 not you get that objective met.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Mark.

 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: Just a couple of

 22 thoughts. I think you folks may know the SEC and
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 1 you folks are working on a compliance certificate,

 2 and the process would require the broker-dealer

 3 and a few folks adopt a comparable program to FCM

 4 to make certifications at the end of the year, as

 5 of the end of the year, as to our compliance with

 6 the regulations. And at the same time, if the

 7 current plan holds true, we would be asked to make

 8 statements with respect to material weaknesses

 9 within our organization, and those statements,

 10 again, if the current plan were to hold true,

 11 would cover the entire year.

 12 I think, Kevin, this is getting to your

 13 point. I'm not sure how this is going to develop

 14 from the auditor's standpoint, but as part of the

 15 certification package we would be asking our

 16 independent auditors to look at our controls

 17 throughout the course of the year. And I think

 18 that to address the kind of concern there that you

 19 were mentioning that the point in time review of

 20 controls doesn't mean that -- or at least appear

 21 to get you very far. Some of the internal control

 22 reports -- and I certainly don't want to speak for
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 1 the public accountants, but some of the internal

 2 control reports currently available, the SSAE 16,

 3 do cover the entire year. And that's one of the

 4 reasons I was mentioning before that I think some

 5 of these internal control reviews, while not

 6 intended to capture fraud or whatever, but because

 7 of this time scope would certainly, perhaps,

 8 provide useful information about the controls

 9 themselves but make other things more difficult,

 10 as well.

 11 MR. BARNETT: Let me ask a very broad

 12 question. And, you know, I mentioned at the

 13 beginning the way our oversight of the examination

 14 program works. You know, we go in, we sample the

 15 audit papers that were -- examination papers that

 16 were done by the SRO and then we do some amount of

 17 our own direct reviews, but not that many. So, I

 18 just want to strip it down, just ask a very

 19 open-ended question. What policies and procedures

 20 should we apply in examining an SRO's examination

 21 program? What would you advise? Bill.

 22 MR. DE LEON: Gary, just to continue. I
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 1 would suggest to you that a top-down approach that

 2 really would guide that program for the DSROs,

 3 that not only does that allow consistency across

 4 the various types of exams, but it also allows for

 5 your own ability to rate their examination. So,

 6 it's not just looking at work papers and making

 7 sure they ticked and tied to right boxes and so

 8 on, but also did they do the right risk assessment

 9 of the firms? Did they look at the right areas?

 10 Is this a, you know -- let me pull out the

 11 standard audit report that I did over the last

 12 five years and just replicate that? So, it's that

 13 type of review that I think adds value from the

 14 Commission standpoint and also provides a much

 15 more integrated approach with the DSROs with their

 16 examinations.

 17 And the same way I suggested about

 18 rating, there should be some of that feedback, as

 19 well, to make sure that, you know, that they stay

 20 on track, if you will, and that the exams are

 21 meaningful and relevant to, you know, what's going

 22 on in the industry, what we've seen as a shifting
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 1 industry, the risk profiles, and so on and so

 2 forth. So, I would encourage that type of

 3 approach.

 4 MS. BAGAN: Isn't that part of your

 5 exams when you come in and look at our audits?

 6 Aren't you doing that? Looking at our scope

 7 selection and risk assessment?

 8 MR. BARNETT: Kevin can correct me, but

 9 I don't think we tend to second-guess judgment

 10 questions that were done. I think we more look

 11 and see that the steps were followed. That where

 12 discretion was involved or, you know, like a

 13 sampling size, or something like that, I think we

 14 don't re-test it. So, I mean, we don't question

 15 it, so --

 16 MR. PICCOLI: I think we spend more time

 17 re- performing than we do stepping back and

 18 looking at it and saying but did they do the right

 19 things? Was the risk assessment the right risk

 20 assessment? Did they risk profile the firm

 21 properly? I'm not sure we do that as part --

 22 MS. BAGAN: Because that's a huge part
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 1 of our audits. Before we even start is, you know,

 2 we put a huge memo together of how we came up --

 3 MR. PICCOLI: Right. And taking that

 4 memo and saying how did that memo change the audit

 5 program, and that's, I think, one of the things

 6 we've got to focus on.

 7 MR. BARNETT: We're looking at that, and

 8 I think, again, I don't want to -- and we've tried

 9 very hard not to say here's -- to the extent we

 10 can, here's what we do. Is it wrong? As much as

 11 what we're trying to say is let's start -- let's

 12 just, in this discussion, with the benefit of you

 13 experts, what should we do? So, we'll look back

 14 and see, you know, what we've been doing and so

 15 on, and we'll make changes, but that's -- so I

 16 don't want to get into too much of that dialogue,

 17 but just answer your question. Bill?

 18 MR. DE LEON: Sort of taking the

 19 clean-slate approach here, and some of the things

 20 we think about a lot are asking the same set of

 21 questions of everybody and see how they stack up.

 22 Sort of going to Bill's point, we have certain
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 1 things we care about, and I'm not sure they're

 2 necessarily the same things you care about or at

 3 the same level, however, I would argue that if you

 4 have a standard template that everyone is supposed

 5 to fill out and meet, from the SROs, and the SROs

 6 down to each FCM, and there's certain things that

 7 they have to do and meet a certain quality

 8 standard on.

 9 And then there are other things that are

 10 bigger in scope and more complicated that don't

 11 fit into that box, I think that that would be very

 12 useful. It goes to Bill's point about sort of the

 13 -- did you get the right checked boxes or where

 14 did you score on certain things. So, do you do

 15 daily seg? How do you confirm it? What's

 16 electronic versus what's not?

 17 MR. PICCOLI: Well, just to avoid

 18 confusion, I mean, we -- it's not that -- the

 19 question isn't that simple.

 20 MR. DE LEON: I don't know why I really

 21 --

 22 MR. PICCOLI: So, we go through the
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 1 audit module and we go through the steps. The

 2 questions is the -- there are some things that --

 3 MR. DE LEON: We don't see it. We don't

 4 know what the score was for people. And there's

 5 certain information that I think if we knew was

 6 going to be reported -- and I think that if you

 7 were going to mandate that it be reported

 8 publicly, would raise the bar for a lot of people

 9 because the difference between reporting to

 10 somebody and then getting that audit going good or

 11 bad, and potentially get a fine is very different

 12 than the well, we're going to tell you how you did

 13 on your score, right? You know, how did you do

 14 today? Oh, I did okay, dad, is very different

 15 than well, it's on the web. Everyone can see how

 16 you did.

 17 MR. PICCOLI: So, just so I understand,

 18 Bill. Are you suggesting that the exams of the

 19 firms, of the FCMs, so maybe when Anne goes out

 20 and does it -- an audit of, you know, Joe Blow,

 21 FCM, that that report, that rating, if you will,

 22 is public?
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 1 MR. DE LEON: Certain parts of it should

 2 be, I think. You know, how you scored on certain

 3 things, so there is a minimum standard of care

 4 which evolves over time, and where do people fall

 5 in that standard is important to know. So, it's

 6 just like, you know, who's your auditor and how

 7 did they score.

 8 MR. PICCOLI: Let's put that out to the

 9 floor. Let's see what others think of that?

 10 MS. DOWNS: I'm not in favor of

 11 displaying the full details of an audit in public,

 12 nor do we display the full details, even of a CPA.

 13 There are some core pieces that you look at, and

 14 that's relevant. I don't think it helps promote

 15 whether or not the overall findings of the firm

 16 are appropriate. I think it gets into the weeds

 17 and gets to be a competitive issue as opposed to

 18 whether or not we're protecting customers.

 19 MR. BARNETT: Others? Mike?

 20 MR. JAMROZ: I guess the concern I would

 21 have is kind of the chilling effect on the

 22 findings themselves, because already today we just
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 1 -- the findings without a rating that's public,

 2 there's enough fighting that goes on, because, you

 3 know, some folks get, actually, compensated based,

 4 you know -- the findings and exam finding are an

 5 element of their compensation in number and amount

 6 of findings. So, my primary concern would be that

 7 it would cause so much fighting about particular

 8 findings that -- I think what you really need is

 9 open communication between the exam -- those

 10 adjusted as to what should be done to improve

 11 practices, things that are intangible, what you

 12 could do better. And I think, making these

 13 findings and these ratings --

 14 MR. DE LEON: I was not suggesting -- to

 15 be clear, I was not suggesting the entire report

 16 be made public. I'm suggesting there are certain

 17 aspects of the review that should be standard

 18 across all firms. That certain information should

 19 be -- you passed or didn't pass or what your score

 20 was. I agree, compensation should not be

 21 reported. I wasn't looking for information like

 22 that. I was thinking there's certain standards,
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 1 though, do you meet and you achieve that would be

 2 useful to know on a regular basis as opposed to

 3 having to go and ask each FCM that you do business

 4 with, you know, when was the last time you were

 5 audited? Any material findings? You can go ask

 6 your FCMs that you do business with for a lot of

 7 this information, and they will -- some give it to

 8 you, some don't. Then as an end-user, I have to

 9 make a decision on whether or not it's material or

 10 not.

 11 There are certain things, I think, that

 12 would be useful to have available just like

 13 there's certain information when a bank is signed

 14 off on, you know, is it good or not? And I go

 15 back to my current analogy, and maybe I'll use the

 16 Chevy Volt this time instead, right? It meets a

 17 certain standard, and it gets a crash rating,

 18 right? You don't get all the information about

 19 the car, but you get certain things, and you know

 20 where it stands relative to other people, and I

 21 think that's useful to have.

 22 MS. BAGAN: Just to be clear. If we do
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 1 have a material finding where we take disciplinary

 2 action, that is public information on the NFA

 3 basic system, so firms can find -- or customers,

 4 can find out how their FCM is performing if it's a

 5 material finding, and if there's a fine involved.

 6 MR. DE LEON: Right, there's, you know,

 7 but we're talking about the -- you're all the way

 8 down at the bad end of the spectrum, but you don't

 9 know where anyone falls here, and you have to do

 10 your own due diligence, you know. So, you get a

 11 two or a one. Okay, that's public. But are you a

 12 five, a seven, or a nine? And that matters a lot

 13 because where are they, and how do you get that

 14 information? So, I think a lot of firms like ours

 15 do a lot of due diligence to get information, but

 16 we can't get everything we'd like to get, and I'm

 17 not sure everyone has access to the same

 18 information given where they are in the market.

 19 MR. BARNETT: Now, let me pull it back

 20 to, I mean, I want to pull it back to -- I'm sort

 21 of anxious to get the perspective of the experts,

 22 again, going back to what we should be doing. So,
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 1 Bill's point was very appreciated. Others

 2 thoughts about things that we should consider

 3 doing? You guys kind of know what we do. Are

 4 there things in your mind that we should be

 5 adding, changing, doing differently? Dan?

 6 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll. I think

 7 from a perspective of an SRO, that I think we have

 8 some of the same, I don't want to say concerns,

 9 but some of the same wishes that the industry

 10 might have. I'm getting feedback from SROs, and I

 11 think that to the extent that the feedback,

 12 whatever you do, not saying so much what you

 13 should do, but that when you do it that we get

 14 feedback and we get it promptly. And that it not

 15 just be, if there are really ideas about things we

 16 could do differently, and they don't rise to a

 17 deficiency, that we hear about that so that there

 18 be -- you know, it not all be formal, would be

 19 informal and really have -- but it's important in

 20 our mind to get that feedback and get it as

 21 quickly as we can.

 22 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Anyone else? Okay.
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 1 MR. FLOWERS: I think, Gary, that one of

 2 the points that assessing how well the CFTC may be

 3 doing in terms of transactions, we can use a real

 4 life example and was just discussed the other day

 5 at the FASB and that was the treatment of

 6 transfers. And that the clarification with

 7 respect to the de-recognition of repos to maturity

 8 and reverses to maturity may not be as indicated

 9 currently in GAAP. And that there's a desire to

 10 identify -- clear the actual risks associated with

 11 those types of transactions and that, in fact,

 12 they do have some exposure.

 13 I think that the consideration of that

 14 particular accounting treatment relative to the

 15 purchase agreements is not just something that

 16 should be either at the SRO level or even at the

 17 CFTC level, but it should be an entire level for

 18 the entire firm, and that the GAAP is the

 19 universal measure and should be part of the daily

 20 assessment for looking at the individual firms

 21 that you're auditing or reviewing, and then see

 22 whether the SROs have kept the contact with the
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 1 appropriate accounting standards. And there are a

 2 number of standards that are up in the air on many

 3 issues, and I think that the evaluation of those

 4 standards and the extent that they're important to

 5 the particular FCM, and whether FCM and the SRO

 6 see whether they're properly evaluated. And I

 7 think that that should be, you know, in your

 8 domain of review.

 9 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. All right.

 10 Somebody sent me a question. I don't think it's

 11 an appropriate question, so if they want to come

 12 out and talk to me afterwards, that's fine. I

 13 want to -- final comments, I'm open to it, but

 14 then I'm going to end this session and let

 15 everybody go and take lunch, and we will come back

 16 for our next session at 1:30, I think. Yes. So,

 17 I want to thank you all so much. We really

 18 greatly appreciate your thoughts, your

 19 participation, your input, your advice. Really,

 20 thank you very much.

 21 (Recess)

 22 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Let's get started.
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 1 Welcome back to our roundtable, discussing

 2 customer protection requirements for futures

 3 commission merchants. We've completed our first

 4 panel. We're now moving to the second where we

 5 will focus on various questions that, actually, we

 6 want to ask you -- the Commission wants to ask

 7 you, or the staff wants to ask you, regarding

 8 customer protection proposals we've been working

 9 on. A quick reminder on housekeeping items. If

 10 you haven't already discovered it, the bathrooms

 11 are in the back down the stairs and, again,

 12 farther down and to then to the left. This is a

 13 two-hour session, from now until 3:30, and then we

 14 roll right into a third session. Somewhere along

 15 there we'll take a break, no later than 3:30, but

 16 it may be earlier depending on how the

 17 conversation's flowing.

 18 Again, for those in the audience with

 19 questions, we have cards. You can submit your

 20 questions in writing, and then the cards can be

 21 brought up to us. We're creating a transcript of

 22 the discussion today. To make this work, when the
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 1 panelist speaks, please first say your name so

 2 they can -- when we go and type it up, we can

 3 track who's talking. And then, as we said

 4 earlier, because of ongoing enforcement cases, we

 5 aren't going to talk about specific market events,

 6 whether it's MF Global, Peregrine, or otherwise.

 7 Okay, so let's start the second panel.

 8 As we said, we want to use the time to get

 9 comments and reactions from you all about various

 10 proposals we've been working on. And before we

 11 start, since we have a lot of new faces at the

 12 table, a lot of people in the first, but new ones.

 13 Let's go around -- again, let's do the same thing

 14 we did before. My name is Gary Barnett, I'm

 15 director of DSIO.

 16 MR. PICCOLI: I'm Kevin Piccoli, Deputy

 17 Director.

 18 MR. COOPER: Charley Cooper from State

 19 Street.

 20 MR. PARKE: Ross Parke, Barclays

 21 representing FIA.

 22 MR. KEMP: Todd Kemp with the National
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 1 Grain and Feed Association.

 2 MR. ROTHMAN: Howard Rothman with

 3 Vision.

 4 MR. FOLEY: Kevin Foley, a partner at

 5 Katten Muchin Rosenman representing FIA.

 6 MR. TIRRELL: Bill Tirrell representing

 7 SIFMA Capital Committee.

 8 MR. LUKKEN: Walt Lukken, FIA.

 9 MR. DAWLEY: Mike Dawley from Goldman

 10 Sachs and chairman of the FIA.

 11 MR. DAVIS: Warren Davis, Sutherland

 12 Asbill & Brennan on behalf of the Federal Home

 13 Loan Banks.

 14 MR. COCCO: Alessandro Cocco, JP Morgan.

 15 MS. AYOTTE-BRENNAN: Christine

 16 Ayotte-Brennan, Fidelity Investments.

 17 MR. THUM: I'm Bill Thum from Vanguard,

 18 also representing the Investment Company

 19 Institute.

 20 MS. BREGASI: Nevis Bregasi, MFS, also

 21 representing ICI.

 22 MS. FLAHERTY: Eileen Flaherty, Newedge.
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 1 MR. FILLER: Ron Filler, New York Law

 2 School.

 3 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Discoll, NFA.

 4 MS. DOWNS: Yvonne Downs, Jefferies.

 5 MS. BURKE: Maureen Burke, Bank of

 6 America, Merrill Lynch representing FIA.

 7 MR. NUNERY: Cam Nunery, Office of the

 8 Chief Economist.

 9 MR. BARNETT: Thank you. Kim, I see a

 10 spot. Your name's on there. Kim Taylor, CME.

 11 MS. TAYLOR: Kim Taylor, CME. Thought I

 12 was on the third panel.

 13 MR. BARNETT: Okay. All right. Okay,

 14 so let's start or just go through some of our

 15 proposals. We have not put out any of these

 16 specific provisions out there, so I know you'll be

 17 hearing this for the first time, but let's just

 18 get your reaction. So, let's start with Part 30

 19 and, you know, as you know, first we're going to

 20 create as much of the industry -- FCMs have to

 21 hold sufficient funds in Part 30 secured accounts

 22 to meet their total obligation to customers that
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 1 are trading on foreign markets, computed under the

 2 net liquidating equity method. No discussion

 3 there. Everybody seems to be in agreement. No

 4 longer allowed to use the alternative method which

 5 has allowed them to hold a lower amount of funds

 6 representing the margin on their foreign futures.

 7 Again, not very controversial. So, we want to

 8 make it clear that when funds are held in a

 9 jurisdiction that permits an opt-out from a seg

 10 requirement, we're going to prohibit such an

 11 election. We don't think that's very

 12 controversial. If there is, then react, please.

 13 But here's one where we do need some

 14 help. Where FCMs are holding funds in Part 30

 15 secured accounts to meet their total obligation,

 16 with respect to the funds that are in excess of

 17 the margin called on for the foreign futures, we

 18 want to require as much of the excess as possible

 19 to be held back in the U.S., subject to allowing

 20 some extra to remain in the foreign country to

 21 avoid real-time margin call issues and the like.

 22 It would just be practically impossible to not
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 1 allow some amount of excess.

 2 And our question is, one, does that

 3 makes sense? And some of you, I think, have

 4 proposed the same. I think FIA has. Then,

 5 assuming that people are in agreement, how should

 6 we size that excess? Some have suggested 50

 7 percent. We think that is way too large. What

 8 are your thoughts and why?

 9 MS. BURKE: Gary, I'll start. So, the

 10 FIA did recommend a similar recommendation for,

 11 obviously, moving to the full seg net value. No

 12 opt-out, I think, as we polled, going through the

 13 Financial Management Committee, all of our member

 14 firms as well as we have representation from the

 15 clearing houses and banks, everyone thought that

 16 we really didn't have the authority to opt out

 17 anyhow pursuant to the U.S. regs, so that's no

 18 issue.

 19 On the third point of requiring FCMs to

 20 pull back, we see it as a material excess amount.

 21 We do think there should be an appropriate amount

 22 that could be left, but have daily policies and
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 1 procedures for pulling back material excess

 2 amounts so they're not held in the foreign

 3 jurisdiction and subject to the foreign bankruptcy

 4 rules in the event of a default. The 50 percent,

 5 I think, pertains to an existing rule. Now if you

 6 have more than 50 percent of margin, you take a

 7 capital charge. So, at some point in time there

 8 was some thought process put into place for that

 9 through the CFTC and other regulatory authorities.

 10 Fifty percent seems as though it's a little more

 11 than a -- what you'd deem to be a proper material

 12 amount. I think it maybe should be a hard dollar

 13 amount and percentage -- combination of the two,

 14 lesser of. And, I think we can look at that and

 15 say what's an appropriate amount because margin

 16 numbers change every day, and there's the daily

 17 settlement, back and forth.

 18 There's also, when you start trading on

 19 foreign boards of trade, there's a foreign

 20 currency settlements and things along that line.

 21 So, a combination -- 50 percent seems a little

 22 high, you know, southbound of that as maybe a
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 1 combination of a hard dollar amount of percent.

 2 And then, that could be monitored versus, you

 3 know, that you're fully out of compliance. And I

 4 think the point should be that if you're over that

 5 amount, maybe just go to the capital component

 6 rather than putting you out of compliance because

 7 the numbers do fluctuate, so it doesn't create a

 8 compliance issue.

 9 MR. BARNETT: Okay. That's helpful.

 10 Ron.

 11 MR. FILLER: Just as you study that

 12 rule, I think the one thing you need to think

 13 about is the time it takes to convert the foreign

 14 currency back to and wire transfer it back to the

 15 states. Usually it's done in a 24 or 48-hour

 16 period, so if you had it as of the close of

 17 business on Monday, it could take one or two days

 18 before you got down below that certain amount.

 19 So, if you do go to a percentage or, as Maureen

 20 said, an acceptable level-type thing, just give it

 21 an extra day or two just in order to transfer the

 22 monies back.
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Eileen, did you have your

 2 hand up? No? Okay. Other thoughts? No. Okay.

 3 MR. DAWLEY: Gary, I'd just add, I agree

 4 with Maureen and Ron. I think a time-date certain

 5 can be challenging, but I'd also just note that

 6 some of what you're requesting is already

 7 happening. There's a lot of clients that are

 8 actually requiring us to move back their excess,

 9 so as they get educated more about the process,

 10 they've adapted to it.

 11 MR. BARNETT: They want it already.

 12 That's good. Okay. Now, the amount that's

 13 called, it's not just the clearing -- again, still

 14 on Part 30. So, not just what the foreign

 15 cleaning agency may have called, but also the

 16 foreign broker. And they have to do their own

 17 risk management. So, I mean, we kind of get that.

 18 But a question is is there a reason to be

 19 concerned about, sort of, affiliation and a need

 20 to track that what is being called by the

 21 affiliate broker is market? It is not being used

 22 as some way of holding up the amount that's
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 1 leaving the country?

 2 MS. BURKE: So, is your question that

 3 imposing that, similar to what you have here in

 4 the States, that you would have an exchange

 5 minimum requirement? Or clearinghouse minimum

 6 requirement flowing through from the affiliate so

 7 that the affiliates -- you wouldn't be funneling

 8 additional funds through to our affiliates through

 9 the affiliated cleaning broker relationship.

 10 That's the point.

 11 MR. BARNETT: Yes. Quick example. So

 12 clearinghouse calls for four, the foreign broker

 13 calls for six, meaning two more, and then the US

 14 FCM calls for ten. You got four sitting in the

 15 States, you've got two sitting at the foreign

 16 broker, and you've got four, if I've got my

 17 numbers still in my head right, sitting at the

 18 foreign DCO. The question is, if it's all

 19 independent and not in market, I'm not worried

 20 about the two that the foreign brokers called for

 21 risk management purposes, being able to respond to

 22 margin calls, but if there's an affiliation or for
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 1 some other reason, do I have to worry that that

 2 two starts creeping up to some larger number, and

 3 pretty soon we don't have four left in the States.

 4 We've got one and the other three is sitting with

 5 the foreign affiliate. Do I have to worry about

 6 any kind of evasion kind of question, trying to

 7 get around this?

 8 MS. BURKE: I'm not aware of working

 9 through affiliates that there would be an add-on.

 10 Typically, when we look at our clients, we're

 11 looking at counter-party credit risk. And when we

 12 clear through an affiliated clearing broker, and

 13 the affiliate is issuing the call to the

 14 affiliate, the US FCM, the US FCM has the

 15 underlying clients and the counter-party credit

 16 risk of those clients. So, that's where the

 17 add-on of the margin would typically come into

 18 play. When you're looking at your US FCM, look at

 19 the counter-party credit risk of the underlying

 20 clients determining whether or not, based upon the

 21 credit parameters of that client, whether or not

 22 you have to add an additional add-on to the
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 1 exchange minimum or clearinghouse minimum margin

 2 requirement.

 3 So, when you're looking at an affiliated

 4 relationship, because it's an affiliate, and you

 5 have the credit due diligence being performed at

 6 the US FCM, that's typically where that excess --

 7 and by implementing your proposal, and there was a

 8 similar proposal to what the FIA put out there as

 9 well, to return material excess, that will keep

 10 that excess for any add-on to the margin here in

 11 the U.S.

 12 MR. BARNETT: All right. Let me turn to

 13 risk management then. And we know from FIA, NFA,

 14 the NFA rule, Section 16, there's a broad

 15 consensus that a policies and procedures approach

 16 be added, more of a control-based structure being

 17 advocated for at least disbursements from seg.

 18 And the proposals go to such things as setting the

 19 target residual, and we are all familiar with

 20 that. And included in a lot of that, among some

 21 of them anyway, separation of duties, selection of

 22 counter-parties and investments, training, and
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 1 limiting the percentage of excess that can be

 2 withdrawn at any time without a sign-off by senior

 3 management.

 4 And now we're getting to the questions.

 5 So, the scope of risk management is still much

 6 narrower, for instance, than what will be required

 7 of swap dealers, for instance, and of course,

 8 narrower than what's required of prudentially

 9 regulated entities. Is there anyone here who

 10 thinks we should not require risk management

 11 policies and procedures around all the risks of

 12 the business?

 13 MR. COCCO: It seems to me appropriate

 14 to require risk management policies and

 15 procedures. I think it would make sense to look

 16 into the detail of that. In other words, I think

 17 that conducting an analysis of the practices that

 18 are currently employed, understanding whether

 19 those are sufficient or not, rather than designing

 20 a system in abstract from the current market

 21 practice and then requiring to comply by a certain

 22 date. That could create more risk rather than
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 1 less. So, I think that if it does done in a way

 2 that looks at how things are being done and

 3 whether those are being done in a prudent manner

 4 now and what can be improved through consultation

 5 with the industry, it would seem to make sense.

 6 MR. BARNETT: I mean, the reality is

 7 that aside from the CPA report that we get audited

 8 financials, I'm not really aware of any -- you

 9 know, and everybody in the last session talked

 10 about the control-based review as substantive

 11 examination plus a control-based review, but

 12 there's nothing in our rules, really, that

 13 requires, you know, risk-based, you know, policies

 14 and procedures around the risks of the business.

 15 And we've got those rules that are

 16 coming and the internal business conduct rules for

 17 the swap dealers and MSPs, but we've got, you

 18 know, very little now. Now we've moved forward

 19 with risk management through FIA and NFA and CME

 20 efforts, but it's to date focused on disbursements

 21 from seg. And it doesn't go beyond that. And it

 22 seems it's hard to isolate one piece and where are
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 1 the lines, and it seems like there ought to be a

 2 more general, beyond the specific one that people

 3 have proposed because of the issues we had and

 4 that we were reacting to that gave us that focus.

 5 It seems there should be more of a risk-based

 6 focus on how businesses are being managed. Yes?

 7 MR. COCCO: I think that that makes

 8 sense to me. I think that just looking at the

 9 overall industry and the rules that prohibit the

 10 sharing of information between swap dealers and

 11 FCMs and drawing up comparison with that, I think

 12 that it would be helpful to recognize that in some

 13 complex financial groups the experience resides in

 14 a team that may not be the FCM team. And so,

 15 allowing for the transfer of information between

 16 those who have the actual knowledge and those who

 17 manage the risk on a day-to-day basis would be

 18 helpful, of course, making sure that appropriate

 19 safeguards are put in place so that customer

 20 information is not disclosed when it not

 21 appropriate.

 22 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Other reactions?
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 1 MR. COOPER: Just a quick question as to

 2 how exactly this would work because I may not

 3 understand the proposal. Requiring the

 4 procedures, I think, absolutely, that makes

 5 perfect sense. What you do with them once they're

 6 required, I think, is the next question which is

 7 part of what was brought up. I don't know if

 8 there's a qualitative review. I don't know who

 9 that rests on. Is it the CFTC to make the

 10 determination as to whether or not those

 11 procedures work? Would it be FIA developing best

 12 practices? I guess, procedures are fine, but they

 13 can be crap, right? So, if there's not

 14 necessarily a qualitative measurement, the fact

 15 they exist does nothing to make the system safer

 16 unless they're useful.

 17 So I guess I'm not understanding how the

 18 determination would be made as to whether or not

 19 the written procedures actually match up to what

 20 should be expected of those of us in the industry.

 21 So I'm asking.

 22 MR. BARNETT: Yeah. No. That's a fair
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 1 point. I mean, we talked about risk-based

 2 examinations before, but it's like what are you

 3 examining, you know. So, there has to be more

 4 risk-management of the FCM, we believe, and the

 5 corresponding or correlative, you know, and the

 6 examinations have to match that.

 7 MR. PICCOLI: Yeah, so I would expect

 8 that as these policies and procedures are

 9 developed that as part of the examination function

 10 by either CME, NFA, or the Commission, that go in

 11 and look at the policies and procedures, compare

 12 them to best practices or what the examiners have

 13 seen at other firms and make some type of

 14 qualitative decision as to are they good? Are

 15 they not? How can they be improved and enhanced?

 16 Because you're right, having just a book on the

 17 shelf doesn't really do much good unless you've

 18 got someone making sure that it's one, actually

 19 being followed, and two, it keeps up with best

 20 practices.

 21 MR. DAWLEY: I would just add I think I

 22 agree with Charlie. It all starts with best
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 1 practices, right. There's huge gaps between how

 2 FCMs manage risk, and I think starting with a

 3 clear set of best practices is something to work

 4 off of and compare to how different firms are

 5 managing risk. And I think that's something FIA

 6 could certainly help with, and some of that's

 7 already in the recommendations we put forth.

 8 MR. BARNETT: Is there an industry group

 9 that's looking at that? You know, FCM best

 10 practice, risk management best practices?

 11 MR. DAWLEY: We've talked about it. The

 12 FIA task force has put that into their scope, but

 13 I think it's really the FCMs are the ones who

 14 really can pull together what we feel are the best

 15 practices. And for your review, and if there's

 16 agreement on them being sound, you can use that as

 17 a tool in the audit process and begin to question

 18 FCMs who aren't potentially following some of

 19 those practices.

 20 MS. TAYLOR: Depending on what kind of

 21 risk management practices we're talking about

 22 here, I think it may be appropriate that they be
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 1 part of the kind of financial- compliance

 2 audit-process review, or it may be appropriate

 3 that they be part of a different, separate

 4 risk-management process review. We perform both

 5 types of reviews at CME, and the one thing -- I'm

 6 very much in favor of the idea of best practices

 7 and we'd be delighted to work with the industry on

 8 helping to develop those, but I think one thing to

 9 keep in mind is that FCMs manage their risk

 10 differently.

 11 They also engage in risk differently,

 12 and not everyone engages in every type of

 13 activity. And so, I think we want to be careful

 14 to make sure that we're not requiring everyone to

 15 put in place risk-management activities that are

 16 not in line with the businesses that they perform.

 17 So, they risk manage, you know, in the areas where

 18 they do perform that business. But, you know, if

 19 we have best practices with respect to option

 20 activity, and we have FCMs who don't really engage

 21 in option activity, there needs to be a way for

 22 that to work so that we don't just require people
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 1 to put practices in place that don't make sense.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Just for the record, so

 3 that was Kim Taylor. I'm worried about the

 4 record. So, it's Kim Taylor, and before Kim was

 5 Mike Dawley. We should say who we are. And I'm

 6 not saying it, but I know that this could be a

 7 mess when we look at the transcript later and as

 8 we try to sort through people's advice. Dan?

 9 MR. DRISCOLL: So, you set up this

 10 question by comparing the FCM environment to the

 11 requirements for swap dealers, and under the swap

 12 dealer rules, the procedures and policies will be

 13 reviewed as part of the registration process. And

 14 then, of course, there will be a follow-up

 15 examination process to look at the implementation.

 16 I would think for FCM risk practice requirements,

 17 to the extent that they're out there, are probably

 18 not best addressed in the registration process,

 19 but as part of the ongoing examination.

 20 MR. BARNETT: That makes sense. And to

 21 speak to Kim's concern, I think referring back to

 22 the risk management rules for swap dealers, they
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 1 don't -- and I don't envision rules that would lay

 2 out you must do this, you must do that. It asks

 3 for consideration of the risks of the business,

 4 and then addressing them in some way. Then that

 5 gets reported in, you know, an annual -- your

 6 policies and procedures and then a progress report

 7 and annual report. So, there's nothing, sort of,

 8 one size fits all, and no one telling you which

 9 risks that you consciously want to take on,

 10 whether or not you should take them on. So, it's

 11 more like knowing your own business, identifying

 12 the risks that you, in fact, want to take on, and

 13 then trying to create risk management around them.

 14 So, we shouldn't end up with the kinds of things

 15 that you're -- it wouldn't be intentional, I

 16 think. Okay.

 17 A corresponding issue we've struggled

 18 with is -- so again, you've got risk management,

 19 you've got a change in the orientation of the

 20 examination process, and we're trying to figure

 21 out ways in which we could start to look ahead at

 22 risk and start to look ahead at problems, get
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 1 ahead of things. So, we're talking about some

 2 additional reporting items, and some of the issues

 3 that we've raised, we considered; for instance,

 4 what about looking at what's going on at

 5 affiliates? What about issues at the securities

 6 business of joint BD FCMs? Should we be looking

 7 beyond capital seg and secured to things like

 8 leverage, liquidity, other business lines, major

 9 changes in the business? Those that might require

 10 consultation, for instance, with the SRO? Or is

 11 it the same kinds of events and affiliates? Is

 12 there really any way that we would avoid looking

 13 at those things if we are really going to take a

 14 risk, or add more of a risk orientation to the way

 15 we or the SRO looks at intermediary or FCMs?

 16 Reactions? Bill.

 17 MR. TIRRELL: I think when you look back

 18 over time, it's fairly easy to see that a lot of

 19 the trends where firms have gone awry. You look

 20 at P&L, for instance, as one good measurement.

 21 So, it's a concentration of P&L in a particular

 22 product or a particular area of the firm, or
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 1 envisioning that it is going to be a very big

 2 winner. So that, obviously, becomes a red flag,

 3 if you will, where you see a large concentration

 4 of P&L within a particular product or particular

 5 area. Concentration of a position, obviously,

 6 again, I think we've seen over time that that

 7 translates into some red flags that needs to be

 8 analyzed. Liquidity, obviously, I think is the --

 9 would be probably number one on the hit parade as

 10 we've seen from past history. So, I think,

 11 collectively looking at different aspects of the

 12 business, and as well as a shifting of the

 13 business. Again, I think it's another red flag

 14 that would require additional, you know, review.

 15 So, growth through acquisitions, or just a push

 16 into certain market places. I think these are all

 17 things that would require some additional

 18 oversight to ensure that what is actually

 19 happening and being presented is real, and they

 20 have the right risk measurements around all that

 21 -- controls and so on.

 22 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Thank you.
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 1 Charley.

 2 MR. COOPER: Charley Cooper. As a

 3 general matter, I see the need and the desire to

 4 look at things -- big picture things that would

 5 tell you about the health of an institution.

 6 Leverage ratios, capital ratios, you go through

 7 the list. Where I get worried is in terms of how

 8 a place like the CFTC, with it's knowledge base,

 9 or the NFA, to the extent they're doing it for

 10 them, would be able to evaluate properly, and

 11 then, what to do about it once the evaluation's

 12 made. Different affiliates that are doing

 13 completely different things than what we're

 14 talking about. So, would, in JP's case, they have

 15 a private bank, international private bank. Does

 16 the CFTC envision looking at various different

 17 risk pieces or financial information from the

 18 private bank to make a determination as to whether

 19 or not that would affect the FCM? Or if they have

 20 a real estate firm, a real estate group? How does

 21 the CFTC evaluate the health of that real estate

 22 division to make the determination as to whether
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 1 or not that poses a threat?

 2 And then, assuming you even have the

 3 expertise to look across various different

 4 affiliates and make a reasoned determination as to

 5 whether there is or is not a problem, then what

 6 would the CFTC claim to be it's jurisdictional

 7 hook for acting? Or how would you force that

 8 affiliate to adopt a different method of business

 9 or risk management procedures, et cetera, so maybe

 10 you'd know there was an issue? I'm not even sure

 11 how you would know there might be an issue if it's

 12 the type of business you don't understand or that

 13 many of us wouldn't understand. But then even if

 14 you were able to understand it, well then, what do

 15 you do if it's something that you're not

 16 comfortable with? So, I don't know how you

 17 effectuate that kind of a system.

 18 MR. BARNETT: I think -- should I answer

 19 or should -- okay. I don't think anyone's

 20 proposing that we would try to regulate people not

 21 within our jurisdiction, but we're thinking more

 22 about adding more to our reporting requirements.
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 1 So, something more like 8K type events, something

 2 major, significant, has happened that's affecting

 3 the registrant, the FCM, they tell us about it so

 4 we can take it into account in knowing that a

 5 problem may be brewing. So we have seen FCMs that

 6 bifurcate their financing into basically a

 7 shell-parent as a public entity, but it's not in

 8 the FCM. So, if you only look at the FCM,

 9 everything looks dandy. And to not look at that

 10 is kind of mad in a way, you know. It's not

 11 appropriate. I think you need to be able to take

 12 other things into account. So, I don't think you

 13 need to worry as much as you are suggesting, but I

 14 think it was fair. It's a question that we ask

 15 and that's good to hear your concern.

 16 The one about liquidity is a significant

 17 issue, as well. Whoever was just -- Bill, talking

 18 about liquidity. I mean, we have our rule,

 19 1.17(a)(4), deals with what happens to a business

 20 when it's under-capitalized. But it doesn't

 21 specifically address what happens when the -- it's

 22 essentially, you've got capital, but you're so
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 1 illiquid that you're basically dead in your

 2 tracks. So, we need to take liquidity into

 3 account in some way, as well. What we should do

 4 -- I'd like to get your thoughts on that --

 5 everybody's thoughts on that. Watching it,

 6 though, and being aware of it and being able to

 7 take that into account as we understand what

 8 pressures are on the FCM, that's the kind of thing

 9 that we're thinking about. But we're definitely

 10 not trying to regulate other people.

 11 MR. COOPER: Okay.

 12 MS. BURKE: So, Gary --

 13 MR. BARNETT: Let Ron go, and then we'll

 14 come back to you, Maureen.

 15 MR. FILLER: Ron Filler. Gary, I think

 16 you raise an excellent question, and, probably, in

 17 looking at it and trying to evaluate the answer,

 18 you almost have to look at it in today's world

 19 versus what it was two, three years ago because

 20 from an investment-risk perspective, and if you're

 21 focusing on the swaps OTC area, any swap dealer

 22 now has to have regulatory capital. Whereas in
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 1 the past, they had very little capital because the

 2 parent company guaranteed the swap business at the

 3 respective firm. And that, with all the Basel 3

 4 and everything else is a greater awareness and

 5 requirements for capital among, not just the

 6 registered entity, but now you have other firms

 7 that are affiliates that are becoming registrants

 8 which have a regulatory capital thing. I think

 9 the key part of it though is also how the -- if

 10 the investments or the concerns that you have --

 11 the risky investments rest with the broker-dealer

 12 FCM entity, financials should pick that up.

 13 Now, I know we're not supposed to talk

 14 about MF Global, but most of their investments

 15 took place within the BD FCM, and that's what

 16 caused that as opposed to a lot of other

 17 affiliates might have it through a parent company

 18 or another affiliate or whatever and not through

 19 the regulated entity. So, I don't think there's a

 20 right answer to your question, but I think it

 21 does, you know, require a lot more details to know

 22 exactly where you guys are going.
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Alessandro.

 2 MR. COCCO: Gary, Alessandro. I had a

 3 couple of thoughts. The first one is -- maybe

 4 it's obvious to everyone, but would this be

 5 information that is disclosed to regulators as

 6 opposed to the public? Because, of course, to the

 7 extent that there's information that is

 8 confidential that has to do with the expansion of

 9 the group in one way or another, then it would not

 10 be suitable to disclose it in real time to the

 11 whole public.

 12 And then, the other thought that I had

 13 was that I would also look into coordination

 14 between regulators, maybe within FSOC because, of

 15 course, you could have different regulators that

 16 are in charge of evaluating different aspects of

 17 the business, and coordination would go a long

 18 way.

 19 MR. BARNETT: I think those are both

 20 excellent points. I think you're predicting one

 21 of our questions. The one about confidentiality,

 22 so we'll talk about it in a second because we
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 1 think that we need more information for customers,

 2 but what are the data points they need and what

 3 should they not see? And so, we should talk about

 4 -- we should spend a good amount of time on that.

 5 So, let's come back to that, but we're definitely

 6 sensitive to that, but we do think customers need

 7 more, but we've got to be careful that it's not

 8 internal, confidential, you know, business stuff.

 9 And we'll talk about the lines.

 10 In terms of coordination, we definitely

 11 agree that in this, you know, globalized world,

 12 and given the speed and all the complexity, that

 13 there has to be more coordination and trying to

 14 find that balance. We talked about it in the last

 15 session, and it's something that's become

 16 increasingly apparent and involving us all the

 17 time.

 18 MS. BURKE: And, Gary, that was the same

 19 point that I just wanted to make, as well. You

 20 know, many of the larger firms, the SEC, the Fed,

 21 the OCC, come in and to have the point of

 22 coordination, maybe you could attend some of the
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 1 meetings. And, you know, the new business items

 2 are brought up, new ventures, liquidity, and

 3 they're discussed in depth and, you know, having

 4 that open flow of information and if something

 5 comes up, then, you know, you can look at the FCM,

 6 go down to the FCM and decide do you need to go

 7 have an onsite visit. And, you know, just having

 8 that open flow of information at the outset.

 9 MR. BARNETT: Right. Right. Okay.

 10 MS. TAYLOR: This is Kim Taylor. I

 11 think I'm going to be reinforcing the point that

 12 some other folks have made about the need for

 13 regulatory coordination. I do agree with the

 14 general point that as an industry we need to be

 15 concerned holistically about the health of not

 16 just the regulated entity, but the health of the

 17 structure that supports the regulated entity.

 18 There, I think, are inherent limitations, and as

 19 Charley referred to, about the ability to actually

 20 enforce against the entity that is not the

 21 appropriately regulated entity. There are things

 22 that we can do from a risk management point of
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 1 view. There are things that we can do from a

 2 regulatory audit point of view, but I think we

 3 also want to be cognizant of not increasing,

 4 unnecessarily, the burden on the FCM community of

 5 duplicative audit work. And where other

 6 regulators are already performing certain

 7 activities, it may be that there's an opportunity

 8 for enhanced information sharing.

 9 I know there is good information

 10 sharing, and there certainly is an intention for

 11 there to be good information sharing, but it might

 12 be that there are some opportunities to find

 13 there, like the one that you mentioned, where kind

 14 of increased regulatory coordination helps

 15 everyone have a broader picture.

 16 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Thank you. Thank

 17 you.

 18 MR. DAWLEY: I would also encourage the

 19 Commission to potentially visit some of the FCMs

 20 and get a handle around how the structures are

 21 different. If you're going to request

 22 information, I think, you know, what a big bank
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 1 who is in dozens of businesses globally does and

 2 how they fund themselves and how they deal with

 3 leverage versus a smaller FCM who's more

 4 future-centric is going to be, you know, very

 5 different. So, I think it would be very

 6 beneficial for you to just understand how the

 7 various FCMs are structured before you made a

 8 decision as to what type of information may be

 9 relevant for you to have a broader picture.

 10 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Thank you. Can we

 11 go back to the liquidity point that Bill mentioned

 12 before. A big concern, again, for us that we

 13 have, you know, for instance, transfer the

 14 business and if you become undercapitalized

 15 subject to, you know, liquidating trades and some

 16 other things that the SRO or we might permit. But

 17 now we've seen several instances where a firm

 18 looks like it's, you know, it's got excess

 19 capital. It's got excess seg. And liquidity is

 20 so dire that it's problematic. Should we be

 21 seeking to do more with the liquidity issue, and

 22 if so, what should we be thinking about doing?
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 1 Bill?

 2 MR. TIRRELL: Bill Tirrell. Just again,

 3 echo of what Maureen said before. A lot of these

 4 conversations are already taking place, at least

 5 at the bigger banks, and to the extent that you

 6 could tap into that, I think that would be very

 7 beneficial to start to frame what exactly -- we

 8 used the term liquidity. What does that mean, and

 9 what are those measurement standards and such? I

 10 mean, clearly having a diverse source of funding,

 11 you know, spread out over multiple durations and

 12 so on becomes a much more stable environment than

 13 having single-source short-term financing with

 14 long-term obligations.

 15 So there are things, and there are

 16 measurement standards that can be used, but they

 17 have to be framed, as we heard before, to match

 18 the business, to match the different products with

 19 the business, and so on. But there is quite a bit

 20 of information, already, that's being disclosed to

 21 the various regulatory bodies. And I think that

 22 would be, as Mike said, very beneficial to start
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 1 participating in that, or visiting the firms and

 2 understanding what the management is doing in

 3 order to measure all that, because again, I think

 4 all of us are well aware of the shortcomings now

 5 of having limited liquidity in the firms. And

 6 they've gone to great measures to review all that,

 7 put standards in place, to have internal

 8 committees to constantly review that.

 9 So, I think there's a lot of information

 10 you could tap into that would make it worthwhile

 11 to you to create some sort of measurement standard

 12 for the different FCMs.

 13 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Thank you. Other

 14 reactions? Other thoughts?

 15 MS. AYOTTE-BRENNAN: Christine

 16 Ayotte-Brennan from Fidelity. I mean, I would

 17 venture to guess, definitely for Fidelity, and

 18 probably for the rest of the buy side, that you

 19 wouldn't get any argument about having increased,

 20 you know, transparency with liquidity. I mean, I

 21 think that coming up with standards that -- as

 22 people have pointed out, not all firms are the
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 1 same, so coming up with standards may be tough,

 2 but I think if there was a, you know, industry

 3 standard that we could look at FCMs and say, oh,

 4 well, their capital's good, but, really, look at

 5 this liquidity, that it would be helpful for us.

 6 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Okay. All right.

 7 So, let's then, maybe, let's turn then from

 8 reporting to us to more information for customers.

 9 And I know this is a little difficult to discuss

 10 in the abstract, but can we hear from -- I guess

 11 we're going to have a very different perspective

 12 from the buy side, the FCM community, but what

 13 kind of information does the buy side need to

 14 receive to have a level of trust and confidence in

 15 what's going on at the FCM. And then, let's

 16 triangulate on what kind of pressures the FCM or

 17 the concerns the FCMs have, if any, with that

 18 information.

 19 MR. THUM: It's Bill Thum here, at

 20 Vanguard. I think this question gets at part of

 21 an issue that we encounter when we work with our

 22 FCMs, and certainly from Vanguard's perspective,
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 1 you know, we have a lot of faith in the FCMs with

 2 which we trade with. However, we are aware that

 3 there's a broad range of FCMs, and certainly a

 4 broad range of clients, and all the clients don't

 5 either have the size or the business relationship

 6 or work with FCMs in a way that they can have full

 7 confidence in terms of transparency in a window

 8 into the FCMs health and performance.

 9 So, I think that for the industry,

 10 Vanguard certainly, and ICI, would support a

 11 greater window into some of the reports that the

 12 FCM either currently provides or in accordance

 13 with the FIA and NFA recommendations will provide

 14 in the future. And I think that will enable the

 15 customers to be able to make a live assessment on

 16 a day-to-day basis and know if there is cause for

 17 them to port their trades to a new FCM. Absent

 18 that information, it really is very difficult to

 19 make that assessment other than what you read in

 20 the press. So, I think in terms of compliance

 21 with segregation requirements, compliance

 22 reporting of capital levels, net capital levels,
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 1 these are areas where, certainly, the FCMs we

 2 trade with we feel perform extremely well.

 3 And I think that the industry, overall,

 4 would benefit from a mandate that not only are the

 5 reports done that are being recommended, but they

 6 may be available on the CFTC's website on a live

 7 basis for customers to have a window in. And that

 8 will really give the customers that ability to

 9 perform the due diligence and to port their trades

 10 if they suspect things are at a risk level, and

 11 they're not comfortable to continue trading.

 12 MR. BARNETT: Walt.

 13 MR. LUKKEN: Walt Lukken. I think FIA

 14 supports getting more disclosure to customers and

 15 helping them to evaluate FCMs. Certainly, we

 16 recommend it coming out of the Peregrine

 17 situation, developing some sort of informational

 18 portal. NFA does a lot of this already and so,

 19 we're trying to compliment what they're currently

 20 doing with their systems, but we think there's

 21 more to be provided. Certainly our concerns are

 22 what Alessandro had mentioned already. Some of
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 1 this is confidential information, so we want to

 2 make sure that we're not crossing any

 3 confidentiality issues.

 4 And the other issue is we don't want to

 5 exasperate a run on the bank if there are

 6 information that could be misinterpreted by firms;

 7 that they may start to leave a firm because they

 8 don't understand the information that's being

 9 provided, so we're sensitive to that too. That if

 10 we're trying to stabilize an FCM in a crisis

 11 situation, we don't want to necessarily want

 12 disclosure to cause a run on that institution.

 13 So, those are the things, I think, we're certainly

 14 in favor of more disclosure, but we have to

 15 balance those issues as well.

 16 MR. DAVIS: This is Warren Davis from

 17 Sutherland. On the question of run on the bank, I

 18 think it's interesting to step back and compare

 19 the situation with an FCM with that of a bank.

 20 The bank is using the customer money and going out

 21 and making longer term investments, and obviously,

 22 cannot afford to have all its customers
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 1 immediately demand the return of their funds. So,

 2 that's where the run of the bank comes from.

 3 In the case of a FCM, the money that the

 4 customer gives the FCM is not for the use of the

 5 FCM. It's solely to protect the customer, so it

 6 seems to me that the run on the bank analogy is

 7 not altogether appropriate here. But what is

 8 appropriate is to ensure that customer money is,

 9 in fact, used for the only purpose for which it's

 10 given which is to secure the customer's

 11 obligations to the FCM and the clearinghouse. And

 12 therefore, if information is released which causes

 13 a customer to move its account from one FCM to

 14 another, that shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing.

 15 That's sort of the way the futures world is

 16 supposed to work. The idea is that one of the big

 17 benefits of futures versus the OTC swap market is

 18 that you can move your money from one place to

 19 another readily and without consequence.

 20 So, I think we think the emphasis ought

 21 to be on the disclosure and not on the concern

 22 about the potential adverse impact it may have on
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 1 a particular FCM. I mean, it could cause them to

 2 lose business and to lose some profits, but that's

 3 not really what we're concerned about. We're

 4 concerned about whether the customers can do their

 5 trades with confidence that their money's going to

 6 be used properly.

 7 MR. LUKKEN: Maybe run on the bank is

 8 not the right analogy. I understand your point,

 9 but oftentimes you're trying to wholesale, move

 10 that book to another FCM, and instead, if people

 11 are leaving and cause it to run into bankruptcy,

 12 it's a much more difficult situation for

 13 customers. It takes a lot more time to work

 14 through those situations than in a situation where

 15 you can sell and stabilize an FCM and move it to

 16 another FCM. And so, I think that's what we're

 17 trying to avoid, not necessarily a run on the

 18 bank. Perfect analogy but --

 19 MR. BARNETT: Let me try to frame. I

 20 guess one risk of -- two sides of the coin -- two

 21 sides of the discussion. So, if one is if there's

 22 information that's material to the safety of my
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 1 money, I want to know versus you give out

 2 information that causes a concern that isn't

 3 material to the safety of my money, but causes --

 4 what are the risks of giving the wrong

 5 information? Could be a run on the bank, and if

 6 it didn't do what it was supposed to do, or -- I

 7 think that's what you're trying to say, so

 8 labeling it as run on the bank isn't what I'm

 9 hearing as much as that's one of the risks of

 10 giving the wrong information or too much or

 11 something like that.

 12 And what Warren seems to be saying is,

 13 you know, I shouldn't bear the risk of not being

 14 told information that could be significant to the

 15 safety of my funds, and finding that place is

 16 difficult. And Warren's point is, who should bear

 17 that risk of getting it right or wrong? But when

 18 we're in a safe situation, we could try to be

 19 analytical about -- and try the best we can to

 20 talk about it. So, that's why we wanted to get

 21 views from people. Bill was talking before about

 22 second secured, but then you also said window into
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 1 the health and performance of the institution.

 2 And I'm not sure that just second secured or maybe

 3 even just capital goes to all of that.

 4 So then, how far do you go? And then,

 5 when you go too far you run into the burdens that

 6 Walt and Warren are talking about. So, what we

 7 were hoping to do, and as you can tell, we've been

 8 thinking a lot about, you know, what is it that

 9 people need, and what goes too far? We want to

 10 get help from folks on finding what data points

 11 are appropriate and, you know, not go too far in

 12 the sense of we're giving stuff that's not

 13 helpful, but it's burdensome, then, to the

 14 business versus we're giving stuff to customers

 15 that they ought to be able to see, and they're not

 16 currently seeing.

 17 MR. DAVIS: Gary, as you know, we

 18 submitted a letter which had some very detailed

 19 comments on specific financial disclosures which

 20 either you presently require or which the FIA

 21 suggested ought to be required that FCMs give to

 22 the Commission and to their supervising auditors.
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 1 Our point was twofold: one, that information ought

 2 to be made as timely as possible; and two, that

 3 information ought to just sort of automatically go

 4 up onto a public website, so that the customers

 5 have visibility into it.

 6 And we did suggest some ways in which,

 7 actually, the information that you're currently

 8 soliciting could be refined to make it more

 9 meaningful to customers; for example, excess funds

 10 in seg. You really want to know how much of that

 11 excess represents amounts which customers have

 12 voluntarily left with their FCM versus how much

 13 the FCM have put in there as a cushion, sort of

 14 residual interest. And seeing that on a daily

 15 basis would give customers, I think, a lot more

 16 information and confidence about how an FCM is

 17 dealing with segregation and what risks they may

 18 face by dealing with a particular FCM.

 19 MS. TAYLOR: Gary --

 20 MR. BARNETT: Let's get Howard, then

 21 I'll go to Bill.

 22 MS. TAYLOR: Can we just make a
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 1 correction, though, first? Excess seg. I mean, I

 2 wonder if what you're getting at is you wanted to

 3 know how much margin was required from the

 4 customers? How much margin from the customers the

 5 FCM held, and then how much excess seg they had

 6 which actually is the firm's investment in seg.

 7 Is that what you're trying to get at?

 8 MR. DAVIS: Right. So, there's an

 9 exchange level, and then there may be an FCM

 10 level, and then some customers leave excess

 11 amounts --

 12 MS. TAYLOR: Some customers leave excess

 13 in addition to their requirement.

 14 MR. DAVIS: To distinguish that from the

 15 amount the firm--

 16 MS. TAYLOR: From the amount the firm

 17 invests. Okay.

 18 MR. ROTHMAN: I think that we need to

 19 step back and after MF situation, we made a

 20 business decision to put on our public website not

 21 only the last current 1FR/Focus Report less the

 22 income statement, but for the last three months so
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 1 that somebody could take a look at it and look at

 2 it on a trend basis, and including the last

 3 audited statement. And I can tell you, it's been

 4 now seven or eight or nine months, and what's

 5 happened is we've stopped receiving calls that you

 6 would receive from time to time -- would like to

 7 know more about financial structure, the FCM,

 8 could we speak to somebody? And at the last

 9 instance with PFG, we tracked the hits to that

 10 part of the site, and it shot up.

 11 And we also tracked over the last month,

 12 monies received and monies gone out, and there's

 13 been very, very -- less than average amount of

 14 money gone out. So, I don't see -- and there's a

 15 lot of information, obviously, in a focus report

 16 and 1FR and maybe there's some changes to it that

 17 incorporates some ideas, but I don't see any

 18 downside. And I'd be more than happy if it has to

 19 go on a portal.

 20 Also, that we at least start with that

 21 statement, because there are many times we as FCMs

 22 are also counterparties, and it would be nice
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 1 information for me to see, or another FCM to see

 2 with someone else, about their counterparty, so

 3 they could evaluate it. If the customer sees it,

 4 they'd rather see it than not see it. I don't

 5 think we've had any negatives. I don't think

 6 we've lost any business. If anything, I think

 7 we've maybe gained business and trust. And I just

 8 think one should just think about it.

 9 Obviously, the SROs, your banks, CFTC,

 10 and regulators are getting copies of that

 11 information. Why shouldn't the customer get it?

 12 Who's really -- that's where the money is coming

 13 that you're entrusting, so I just think it's one

 14 of those things where it sounds like it's a big

 15 deal, but once it would get implemented, people

 16 would say why didn't we do this a long time ago.

 17 MR. BARNETT: Bill?

 18 MR. TIRRELL: I mean, I think the FIA is

 19 in agreement that there's plenty of room for more

 20 disclosure, but just to comment on Warren's

 21 comment before, the reality is the world is not

 22 real time. So, an FCM that has daylight exposure,
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 1 for instance, and is moving money through the

 2 course of the day by a facility from a bank. That

 3 bank goes, and you read in the paper -- decides

 4 that it's not going to renew its credit facility.

 5 Well, that may be information that would cause you

 6 to pull out. Maybe you didn't inquire enough to

 7 find out, well, yeah, that bank is not renewing

 8 your credit facility, but they've already enlisted

 9 two other banks that have doubled their credit

 10 facility.

 11 So, the amount of information, the way

 12 it's dispersed, I think, is critical to be

 13 interpreted properly. It's not just how much is

 14 in seg during the course of the day and so on, or

 15 at close of day. I think that's information that

 16 we all agree should be out there, but there are

 17 other things that we need to take into

 18 consideration that can be very easily

 19 misinterpreted. And in today's world where

 20 everything's almost instantaneous, all you need is

 21 a little sniff of blood in the water, and you

 22 could have a very solid institution start having
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 1 problems real quick, and I think that's where the

 2 balancing act comes into play. And quite frankly,

 3 I see that as a very important role of the

 4 Commission, because if you had full disclosure, I

 5 don't think we would need you guys.

 6 MR. PICCOLI: Let's not go too far,

 7 Bill. (Laughter) Bill, I guess one of the things

 8 we've talked about internally, 8K- type

 9 disclosures, which is one of the things you were

 10 talking about. If a firm, their clearing bank, is

 11 no longer going to clear for them, but they have

 12 someone else. Well, is that a significant enough

 13 disclosure that should be made out there so people

 14 know, okay, well, JP Morgan is no longer going to

 15 clear? It's now going to be Harris Bank. Or

 16 things along that. I think the SEC already has,

 17 you know, well defined 8K-type disclosures for

 18 significant events. Is something like that

 19 important and helpful to people, to the public to

 20 see?

 21 MR. TIRRELL: I think my response to

 22 that is that it depends. If you have an entity
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 1 that has many relationships and losing one may not

 2 be that material. An entity that has one single

 3 relationship, maybe that's very material. But I

 4 think, as we talked about in an earlier session,

 5 that dialogue of where the firm is going, you

 6 know, the ongoing relationship with the firm,

 7 understanding the firm in many aspects will help

 8 guide you in that decision as to what needs to be

 9 publicly disclosed versus what can be disclosed to

 10 a regulator.

 11 MR. BARNETT: Mike?

 12 MR. DAWLEY: Hi, Mike Dawley. I'd just

 13 like to reiterate what Walt had said earlier and

 14 as one FCM, point out that we are totally

 15 supportive of getting as much transparency out

 16 there as possible, but I do think it's important

 17 to note a couple of risks that exist. First of

 18 all, you should know that as an FCM, we disclose

 19 to our clients pretty much whatever they want to

 20 know, and we have no problems supplying the

 21 regulators with a lot of information. What we're

 22 concerned about are the -- not our clients or you,
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 1 it's everyone else who could misinterpret

 2 information. So, I think whatever we do there is

 3 going to require a lot of education, and I think,

 4 you know, the data itself really needs to be

 5 analyzed, and we need to be certain that, you

 6 know, somebody can't game the system or use that

 7 in an inappropriate way.

 8 To Warren's point on excess, I think

 9 that's a prime example. I mean, right now, the

 10 excess numbers are being reported monthly, and I

 11 think those even are flawed and could even give a

 12 false sense of comfort. You know, there's big

 13 variances across firms there. Some firms have

 14 actually made a conscious decision to keep a

 15 consistent cushion in there, which is excess.

 16 Other firms just house their entire capital in the

 17 seg pool, which also appears as excess. Does it

 18 mean that a person who's got more in the latter

 19 bucket is safer than the other firm? Not really,

 20 because that's their capital. It's working

 21 capital. They could pull it out at any time, so I

 22 think some of the new rules and recommendations
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 1 may prevent that going forward, but you know, it's

 2 really important to focus on what type of data

 3 we're going to put out there to the public.

 4 MR. BARNETT: Warren, what's your

 5 reaction?

 6 MR. DAVIS: I agree that it's really

 7 important to understand what the data is and what

 8 it isn't. And the education is very important.

 9 But I don't think the answer to that is not to put

 10 it out. I think the answer is the education, and

 11 get it out there, and get it out there regularly

 12 so that people don't do sort of end-of-the-month

 13 transactions to make their capital look better.

 14 It's valuable to have it on a daily basis where

 15 you can look at trends and see whether this money

 16 is for real. I agree that we need a lot more

 17 education about what that information means and

 18 what it doesn't mean.

 19 MR. THUM: Bill Thum at Vanguard. Yeah,

 20 and I agree with that, I think that having a

 21 consistent agreed set of meaningful data points

 22 that can be reported in a consistent basis across
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 1 the FCMs to be made available to all customers

 2 would really be a huge step forward. As I

 3 mentioned, you know, obviously, Vanguard has a

 4 strong credit team, a strong counter party risk

 5 team, and does a lot of in depth analysis and has

 6 strong relationships with its FCMs. Many, many

 7 customers, though, either don't have the

 8 wherewithal to perform that or don't have the

 9 business relationship. What you could end up

 10 having is those that can perform the due diligence

 11 supporting all their trades ahead of a problem,

 12 and having customers that don't have the window in

 13 or don't have the wherewithal to have the

 14 relationship remaining up until the end. So I

 15 think that having those data points, making them

 16 available publicly, you know, creates a level

 17 playing field for the customers, and also for the

 18 FCMs, because certainly, there are stand out FCMs

 19 certainly referenced in this room that have a very

 20 good story to tell. But we need to be able to

 21 differentiate that.

 22 And it's interesting, the story you were
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 1 telling about, that Howard was telling about the

 2 report made available on Merrill's site and it not

 3 being hit as frequently as you might expect. And

 4 I think, you know, that speaks a little bit to how

 5 well known is it that that information is

 6 available there among customers. And I wonder if

 7 the Commission did address this and require that

 8 the information be made available, then I think it

 9 would be hit on a regular basis by all customers

 10 in dealing with their FCMs.

 11 MR. DAVIS: There's another point. I've

 12 had discussions with FCMs that said, well, you

 13 wouldn't know to look at that because you're

 14 representing large institutions like, you know,

 15 similar to Vanguard that have the capacity and

 16 resources to pay attention to this. But the real

 17 people who have lost in this market are the small

 18 investors. And the answer that I give is that, if

 19 you put this information out there, there will be

 20 third parties who will monitor that information

 21 and convey it, I think, to the small investor. So

 22 I don't think we have to be concerned that the
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 1 small investor is not going to have access or

 2 wouldn't go to it, because I think there will be

 3 Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, others who, if the

 4 information is meaningful in real time, we'll

 5 monitor it and provide the broader investment

 6 community with information about what's going on.

 7 MR. BARNETT: Bill, can I ask you; are

 8 there data points that your diligence people tell

 9 you they routinely can't get when they look at

 10 FCMs and evaluate them?

 11 MR. THUM: Well, no, I think that, you

 12 know, just the opposite. We've selected our FCMs

 13 for Swaps Clearing, you know, and that was based

 14 on discussions that we had with them and an

 15 understanding of the strength of their business

 16 model. So we do have that dialogue.

 17 MR. BARNETT: Was it because you have

 18 access to them?

 19 MR. THUM: Because we have access to

 20 them, there's a big potential for a lot of

 21 business to flow through them, and so there's an

 22 incentive to provide that data. And I think, you
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 1 know -- so, in terms of Vanguard, I'm not

 2 suggesting that we have a problem in terms of how

 3 we make those assessments, but I think that, you

 4 know, we really should be aiming not to craft a

 5 situation where the large asset managers already

 6 have the information that they need, but that all

 7 customers have the information that they need.

 8 MR. PICCOLI: So, Bill, is there any I

 9 guess I would love to, and maybe we could have it

 10 offline if you'd like, but just try to understand

 11 what are those data points that your folks are

 12 getting that may be very helpful for the public to

 13 get, as well?

 14 MR. THUM: Sure, we can do that. And I

 15 think, as a starting point, certainly, the letter

 16 dated March 27, 2012, from the FHL banks that

 17 warrants mention has a really good summary of

 18 critical data that the buy side is looking for in

 19 a consistent basis from their FCMs.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Yeah, Todd?

 21 MR. KEMP: Todd Kemp with National Grain

 22 and Feed Association. I just wanted to follow up
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 1 on Bill's point, I think it's a very good one. We

 2 represent agricultural hedgers, they're the

 3 purchasers and the end-users of grains and oil

 4 seeds, a lot of very small companies, and I'm sure

 5 they don't have the personnel or the access that

 6 some of the larger customers do. I don't have any

 7 particular data points to give you today, Gary,

 8 but I think more information is better than less,

 9 you know. We don't want to be in a situation

 10 where we're causing the run on the bank that we're

 11 talking about, but I think where our members

 12 really need the information is up front. As you

 13 said before, there's a crisis situation to do

 14 their due diligence to make the good decision up

 15 front to avoid a problem. So, you know, I was

 16 thinking back to the round table in this room --

 17 when was it, back in February?

 18 MR. BARNETT: Yeah, it was in February.

 19 MR. KEMP: And there was a lot of talk

 20 about this same subject, about the type of

 21 information FCMs could provide. I think there was

 22 pretty much consensus around the room that, yeah,
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 1 we ought to start doing this. Here we are, six

 2 months later, and it sounds like maybe there's

 3 been a little bit of progress. But I would sure

 4 encourage the Commission let's try to move more

 5 quickly instead of less. You know, we've seen a

 6 couple of more episodes since that time that have

 7 affected a lot of customers, so we'd sure like to

 8 see movement relatively quickly.

 9 MR. LUKKEN: Just to add -- Walt Lukken

 10 -- to standardize and centralize this information,

 11 I think, is going to be tremendously helpful, as

 12 Bill was talking about, too, for the smaller

 13 customers, the small FCMs, as well as the larger

 14 ones. But I think the added benefit, just to add

 15 a fine point to this, is it's also going to

 16 create, while you put sunshine on all this, create

 17 benchmarks for the industry so that people with

 18 great risk management standards, like many of the

 19 people around this room, they may be shown to have

 20 those great risk management standards through

 21 disclosure. And it's going to shame the others

 22 who may not have those same risk management
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 1 standards to want to get better and to pull up

 2 those benchmarks. So I think it has the added

 3 benefit of creating best practices within the

 4 industry as long as we can standardize it and make

 5 sure it's not misinterpreted. But if we get the

 6 right information out there, I think it's really

 7 going to be helpful.

 8 MR. BARNETT: Okay, great. Dan?

 9 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll from NFA. I

 10 just wanted to point out that, recently, NFA

 11 adopted a new rule, Financial Requirement, Section

 12 16, that requires a lot of information to be filed

 13 with the NFA and the SROs daily, semi monthly and

 14 monthly. And quite a bit of that information is

 15 going to be published on NFA's website in a way

 16 that puts it together with other information about

 17 each FCM, their registration history, their

 18 disciplinary history. And I did want to point

 19 out, because there was one, one concern is that a

 20 firm could do transactions at the, every two weeks

 21 or towards the end of the month, it would give

 22 them more flattering outlook than they are
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 1 generally. And we issued an interpretive notice

 2 at the time we adopted that rule that says if we

 3 catch anyone doing that, that will be inconsistent

 4 with just and equitable principles in trade, and

 5 subject that firm to enforcement action.

 6 Because we think it's very important

 7 that those numbers are not just window dressing as

 8 of one or two days a month, but are indicative of

 9 the standing of the firm throughout the month.

 10 MS. BURKE: And, Gary, that was the

 11 intent, and you're referring to the SIDR report,

 12 and that's been a detailed report that the FCMs

 13 now need to file twice a month. And the intent on

 14 the recommendation was that, not only to just have

 15 it at month end for the purpose that there could

 16 be window dressing at month end, but twice a

 17 month, and also to detail out all of the

 18 investment types, as well as the counter parties

 19 and custodians and bank custodians. The FCMs are

 20 sending information in every day, the daily seg

 21 reports, and sequestered. So the intent there

 22 that it goes out to the regulators, the regulators
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 1 can monitor our DSROs and can monitor where

 2 there's fluctuations, if there's fluctuations in

 3 the seg access, if there's big variations in the

 4 seg access that can bring up the FCMs and inquire

 5 if there's something going on within the FCM.

 6 There's also been enhancements made through,

 7 obviously, recommendations, and now NFA has taken

 8 them further, and the CME on documented policies

 9 and procedures on the targeted financial interest.

 10 And I think, Dan, the rule that has come out or is

 11 being finalized is that only the CFO or the CEO

 12 can sign off on the documented policies and

 13 procedures. And if there's a withdrawal of 25

 14 percent from the prior day seg excess amount, that

 15 has to be authorized and signed off by a CFO, CEO,

 16 or a financial principle. And when you look at

 17 the financial principle, the intent there is to

 18 bring it down to someone who has the authority and

 19 knowledge of the seg computation, understands the

 20 ins and outs, the nuts and bolts, and, you know,

 21 is monitoring this on a daily basis. I can tell

 22 you from the work that's been done through the
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 1 Financial Management Committee, where we put this

 2 work group together after the round table back in

 3 February, there's been extensive work, and we

 4 support transparency, full transparency out to the

 5 client. We're looking at what should go out as

 6 consistent information, whether it goes out to

 7 every FCM's website, or if it comes through the

 8 NSA website, but, you know, there is the intent to

 9 have full transparency to aid the clients to

 10 review, you know, the various FCMs and have access

 11 to that information. And there's still work to be

 12 done. I think this is an ongoing process, we need

 13 to evaluate all the policies and procedures, and

 14 continue to make enhancements to customer

 15 protection.

 16 MR. BARNETT: Okay.

 17 MS. BURKE: I think the point of online

 18 access, where the DSRO or the NFA can get access

 19 to the FCM's bank accounts, which are under way

 20 right now, I think that will help enhance the

 21 protection. Because you're not just relying upon

 22 information that's stated, this is information
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 1 that, you know, they would have to go in and do

 2 spot checks, a comparison. They'd have to go in,

 3 get the seg report, they'll have the seg report

 4 daily, go in and look at the balances on a spot

 5 check basis. And the industry supports that, the

 6 FIA supports it, and I can tell you every firm

 7 that's represented with broad representation to

 8 the Financial Management Committee supports this.

 9 We're looking for what can we do to improve

 10 customer protection and get rid of the black eye

 11 that's killed our industry. This is paramount.

 12 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Christine?

 13 MS. AYOTTE-BRENNAN: Christine

 14 Ayotte-Brennan from Fidelity. I mean, I think the

 15 point that Maureen made about consistency are

 16 extremely important, as well as Bill's points on

 17 leveling the playing field. What I would say

 18 about leveling the playing field, though, is that

 19 I equate this a lot of ways to reg FD in the

 20 securities world, right? You should get the same

 21 information to everybody at the same time. So

 22 even amongst the big money managers, you may have
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 1 one credit team that calls an FCM one day and gets

 2 some information that somebody doesn't get for

 3 three more days. So I do equate it to that type

 4 of reg FD disclosure. And maybe something like

 5 that, and having all of those reports consistently

 6 on a daily basis, or on a regular basis would help

 7 not only the smaller guys, but everyone across the

 8 industry.

 9 MR. BARNETT: That's an interesting

 10 point. Mike?

 11 MR. DAWLEY: Mike Dawley. I think it's

 12 also important to just focus in on who is the

 13 target audience for this information. I think,

 14 you know, as I reflect back over the last couple

 15 of years, the vast majority of our clients are

 16 educated now. It's been a long process, and we've

 17 welcomed it, I've lost my voice some days having

 18 so many conversations with clients. But it's

 19 really a great feeling to know that your clients

 20 are fully informed as to how you're structured,

 21 how the business operates. And I do commend Bill

 22 for, as a large client whose got this information,
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 1 representing the smaller type client, and I think

 2 that's really the audience that needs help and

 3 needs more information. And if we reflect back on

 4 some of the recent events that have occurred, they

 5 have mainly involved the smaller clients. So, as

 6 we look at ways to educate, we look at information

 7 disclosed, I think we have to keep in mind that

 8 that is an important constituency that needs help

 9 versus the larger institutional clients and the

 10 big bank firms. So I just wanted to make that

 11 point.

 12 MS. TAYLOR: And I would agree with a

 13 lot of what Mike said, and think we also need to

 14 make sure that we consider the fact that, from a

 15 client's point of view that doesn't have a huge

 16 due diligence department, and I realize that

 17 Vanguard is in a different spot than -- many

 18 clients are in a different spot than smaller

 19 clients. I think we want to make sure that

 20 perhaps there's an educational piece or a

 21 framework that comes along with it on how they

 22 should interpret the information. Perhaps there
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 1 needs to be information that lays out what some

 2 differences are naturally going to be between

 3 something that is a Broker Dealer FCM and

 4 something that is an FCM only. Those profiles, I

 5 think, will look very different, but the risks

 6 that those businesses face that could affect the

 7 customer can also be very different. And so I

 8 think there are, I think continuing to educate the

 9 customer how to use the disclosure is going to be

 10 important. Even if we come to an agreement on

 11 what kind of key standardized disclosure points

 12 might be. Because one of the worst outcomes that

 13 we could create is a false sense of security,

 14 because certain things about the FCM may or may

 15 not change in cases where there is a Broker Dealer

 16 FCM, or cases where the Broker Dealer business is

 17 outside the FCM and don't show up in the FCM's

 18 records. But the firm is still at risk in pretty

 19 much the same way they would be if there was a

 20 joint Broker Dealer FCM, but those risks would

 21 show up in the 1FR. So I think we have to be

 22 thoughtful in how we handle those things.
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 1 MS. BREGASI: Hi, Nevis Bregasi from

 2 MFS. So, going back to educating clients and

 3 helping the smaller client that doesn't have as

 4 much resources. I thought the FIA earlier this

 5 year put together a list of FAQs for clients which

 6 was very useful and gives the clients a lot of

 7 information that they weren't aware of before.

 8 I'm sure there are things that can be added to the

 9 FAQs, as well. Where do those stand, are they

 10 currently required to be given to clients, or not,

 11 yet?

 12 MR. BARNETT: Yeah, on the FIA website,

 13 right?

 14 MR. LUKKEN: No, we -- at they're best

 15 practices that we've put together, and we

 16 encourage our firms to use them with their

 17 clients, but, you're right, they're evolving, so

 18 we're in discussions with Gary and others in the

 19 industry about what else do we need to add, here.

 20 And I think we have also, FIA has an educational

 21 arm, an affiliated company called the Institute

 22 for Financial Markets, they're more about
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 1 educating. And, really, this target audience that

 2 Mike referred to, we really need to --

 3 sophisticated customers don't need an education,

 4 it's really the smaller ones on how to evaluate

 5 properly an FCM. We're talking about the types of

 6 information we're going to disclose, but what do

 7 you do with that information? And so I think the

 8 next step for us is to develop programs for

 9 outreach.

 10 The Commodity Markets Council is trying

 11 to do this already, I think, with some help with

 12 law firms with certain ag clients. I think that's

 13 great. We're going to try to do some more with

 14 the IFM. And I think our FAQs, as you mentioned,

 15 are going to evolve over time so that we can, you

 16 know, improve those so that they're exactly what

 17 the customers need.

 18 MS. BREGASI: But could some of those

 19 FAQs, though, go into some sort of risk disclosure

 20 to the client, which I know it's already being

 21 given by FCMs to clients when they sign up the

 22 agreements? And they probably should be given on
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 1 a more regular basis so it's not done once. I

 2 mean, if the agreement is on for ten years, you've

 3 never read it again. So that's one point. I

 4 really did think those were very useful, and even

 5 larger clients that should know more, there's

 6 still a lot of gray areas that people are learning

 7 every day, so it would be really useful for

 8 clients. And, again, going with a smaller client,

 9 while a lot of smaller clients might not have the

 10 time or the resources to look at the NFA website

 11 or the CFTC website, one thing they most likely

 12 are looking at is their own statements.

 13 So, currently, when you get a statement,

 14 there's no real detail of exactly where your

 15 collateral is, and breaking it down between, for

 16 example, U.S. futures and foreign futures, there's

 17 also no information on the foreign futures as to

 18 who your local FCM is that the U.S. FCM is using

 19 in that market. I totally understand that the

 20 client is taking the risk of dealing in a

 21 particular foreign market and understanding that

 22 there might be insolvency laws that are different
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 1 there, but not having a regular daily report of

 2 who the local FCM is, where your collateral is

 3 sitting, and really informing your counter party

 4 risk at the client's side, there's sort of a hole

 5 in the system, there, where we're not seeing all

 6 the detail we should be seeing in order to

 7 evaluate our own counter party risk. And I don't

 8 know, just asking the FCMs, is there a particular

 9 reason why they can't be given, or is it possible

 10 to give that information daily to clients?

 11 MR. DAWLEY: I'll take that -- it's Mike

 12 Dawley -- or at least one of the components, maybe

 13 Maureen can grab the other. First of all, we are

 14 required to disclose who we use in different

 15 jurisdictions, so that is information that's put

 16 out to all of our clients on their statement. So

 17 if we use a third party broker in Spain or

 18 somewhere else, we've got to disclose that sort of

 19 information. I'm sorry?

 20 MS. BREGASI: I'm sorry, is that in the

 21 daily collateral call statement?

 22 MR. DAWLEY: No, no, that's just the
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 1 brokers or the entities we're using. As far as

 2 your question to collateral, that gets a bit more

 3 complicated, maybe I'll have Maureen take that.

 4 MS. BURKE: Yeah, I wouldn't, I'm not

 5 aware on daily statements out to clients that it

 6 breaks it down to who the counter party is. Where

 7 this is coming out into play, and we can look at

 8 this, and it's great to have this, this feedback,

 9 it's on the SIDR report, on the Seg Investment

 10 Detail report. On that report, it will show all

 11 of the counter parties, and if whether it's an

 12 affiliate or a third party broker, it will show

 13 who all the counter parties are. But I think, you

 14 know, I understand it's a wonderful to have the

 15 feedback, I think we've been operating in our

 16 business, and our daily statements go out to our

 17 clients, and I think we can look at that and say

 18 is there the potential, even just as a footnote to

 19 state, you know, the balances are held with, you

 20 know, XYZ counter parties.

 21 Typically, I think we make an assumption

 22 that clients know all of our clearing
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 1 relationships all around the globe, and many

 2 clients come in and they want to go through a

 3 large FCM, they know the counter party credit risk

 4 underneath, so they know the affiliates that we're

 5 clearing through. We give out all of our

 6 memberships around the globe and the affiliates

 7 that have the clearing memberships, and we also

 8 disclose if we have any third party relationships.

 9 But it's not bringing it down to the same detail

 10 that you're asking for.

 11 MR. DAWLEY: I do think it does bring it

 12 down just via the initial margin required for the

 13 particular product that might be trading in

 14 another jurisdiction. So the IM's there, and part

 15 of the value proposition FCMs provide clients is

 16 the ability to consolidate reporting and

 17 potentially single currency margin, et cetera. So

 18 you can be assured that the value of that margin

 19 is sitting at the CCP or at the third party broker

 20 that relates to that product. I don't know, I'd

 21 like to hear if you'd like to get more granular

 22 than that, that's where I think it gets
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 1 complicated.

 2 MS. BREGASI: Well, could you have, in

 3 the local market, could you have money sitting at

 4 the DCO, the local DCO, and then money sitting in

 5 the local FCM, so that you have that division

 6 between the local clearinghouse and the local FCM?

 7 And the local FCM might be using another

 8 custodian, do we know who they're using? For

 9 example, I was very surprised recently to find

 10 that one of our larger FCMs that we're looking at

 11 for clearing swaps, when I looked at the questions

 12 that they were, we had asked a number of

 13 questions, and I was going through them, they use

 14 for their custodian for their futures and cleared

 15 swap segregation margin, an affiliated, pretty

 16 much their bank. Which is very surprising as a

 17 client to see, because you would think if there's

 18 an insolvency of the FCM, you don't want your

 19 initial margin sitting with their sister company.

 20 So just that type of information, which, even

 21 though it might be in separate reports, as an

 22 individual client that doesn't have as much
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 1 resources or time, you're not going to put it all

 2 together, it's easier if it's in one place.

 3 MR. BARNETT: Dan, are you able to speak

 4 at all to the, where it's located -- you know,

 5 this question about what NFA's thoughts are? Are

 6 you still in development of that?

 7 MR. DRISCOLL: Well, one of the pieces

 8 of information that we will get when the rule

 9 becomes fully effective is whether the FCM has

 10 assets, seg assets or secured assets on deposit

 11 with one or more affiliates during that month, but

 12 we're not going to have it detailed down by which

 13 one and how much in each one. But that's what we

 14 were intending to make public is either a yes or

 15 no, we have money with affiliates or not.

 16 MR. BARNETT: Well, my sense of it is

 17 that there's still a spread difference between,

 18 you know, knowing where the funds are located and

 19 where it's invested at that location. You can't

 20 get them all together yet. What I'm hearing is a

 21 desire to have more detail on that, and I think

 22 there's still some gap. I wonder whether, Bill
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 1 and Warren, have you been following the

 2 developments, like the Section 16 information, and

 3 the, you know, the SIDR report and all that kind

 4 of stuff, and how much difference there is between

 5 that and what you guys have been asking for in

 6 terms of information?

 7 MR. THUM: Well, I certainly have been

 8 taking notes, here, so I want to --

 9 MR. BARNETT: Yeah, it's not a test, so

 10 that's okay. But I think there's still some -- I

 11 know your letters predate, I think, or -- and I

 12 think you've got to triangulate on them a little

 13 bit. I think there's movement, but I think

 14 there's still difference there, there's still a

 15 gap.

 16 MR. COCCO: Gary, if I --

 17 MR. BARNETT: Eileen, I overheard that.

 18 MS. FLAHERTY: That's okay. Eileen

 19 Flaherty Newedge. If there's a better way to give

 20 clients access to more information, I think

 21 everybody around the table is saying the same

 22 thing, that that's a good thing, and that's
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 1 necessary, and the purpose is to give clients

 2 comfort as to where their funds are, where they're

 3 being maintained. If there needs to be more

 4 transparency about use of affiliates, then so be

 5 it, then there needs to be more transparency, and

 6 there will be an effort to be more granular. But

 7 I think, to Maureen's point, there are really two

 8 issues here; disclosure, but also protection of

 9 the customer funds. Your disclosure goes to, do

 10 you want to do business with that FCM, but there

 11 also, hand in hand, goes with that, the protection

 12 of the customer funds. And the smaller investors

 13 really aren't going to be doing what you're doing,

 14 they're not going to be pinging the websites daily

 15 or monthly.

 16 And so, to protect those customers, it

 17 really goes hand in hand with what Maureen said

 18 and with what NFA is doing to be able to verify,

 19 independently verify through electronic means and

 20 comparison those balances to know that those funds

 21 are there on a daily basis. And I think, really,

 22 that's the level of protection that the regulator
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 1 has to provide to, not only protect you, but

 2 because you probably don't need the protection,

 3 but the smaller investors really do.

 4 MR. BARNETT: Alessandro?

 5 MR. COCCO: Thank you. I just wanted to

 6 mention that greater transparency will, of course,

 7 enable customers to make their own decisions, and

 8 also the educational efforts, I think, are very

 9 important. On the affiliate point, I wouldn't

 10 assume that holding a deposit with an affiliate is

 11 necessarily is bad thing, it depends on the

 12 affiliate, of course. Also, looking at the

 13 alternatives, if you force an entity not to hold

 14 deposits with an affiliate, then you force them to

 15 go outside. It may be a positive, it may be a

 16 negative. So I think the greater disclosure will

 17 enable everyone to make a decision based on the

 18 data available.

 19 MS. BREGASI: Would it be possible to

 20 discuss it a little bit more? Because I just want

 21 to understand -- what --

 22 MR. BARNETT: Can you speak up?
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 1 MS. BREGASI: Could we discuss that a

 2 little bit more, because I want to understand what

 3 the negative is. So, as a client, if you're using

 4 -- I'm just going to pick on you, Alessandro -- so

 5 if you're using JP Morgan as your FCM, and they're

 6 keeping all the initial margins sitting with JP

 7 Morgan, Chase Bank, NA, isn't it more likely is

 8 that if the FCM is insolvent that there might be

 9 some issue with the bank, as well? So now I have

 10 a double whammy where the initial margin that's

 11 supposed to be protected from the FCM's insolvency

 12 is sitting with a sister entity. So I don't think

 13 we have an issue with having a local FCM be

 14 affiliated, so you're using someone in your local

 15 market, but as the custodian who is actually

 16 holding the initial margin, what would be the

 17 negative in requiring that to be a different

 18 entity and not an affiliate?

 19 MR. COCCO: Yeah, thanks for raising

 20 that. I think it is highly fact-specific. So, in

 21 other words, it depends on the custodian. The

 22 custodian may be a very strong capitalized bank
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 1 that is not going to default. You're making an

 2 assumption that the two will default at the same

 3 time, and, of course, that may or may not be the

 4 case. So that was my only point. So, I'm

 5 thinking of other jurisdictions where there are,

 6 there's a requirement to not hold the collateral

 7 with the affiliate. You then essentially are

 8 forcing the FCM to go outside, and then they may

 9 not have an option that is as good as their own

 10 affiliate. So it really does depend on the

 11 affiliate, on the facts, and on the due diligence

 12 that you, as the customer, with the information

 13 available to you on the FCM and the custodian.

 14 MS. TAYLOR: I just wanted to mention --

 15 this is Kim from CME -- there are some emerging

 16 regulations in Europe that impose different

 17 capital treatment or different capital charges, I

 18 think, on the relationships between affiliates. I

 19 don't know if they extend to custodians, I think

 20 it's more related to holding margin requirements

 21 with different affiliates. But that might be

 22 something that we could talk about or look at, or
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 1 maybe some of the firms with FSA regulated

 2 affiliates could comment on that.

 3 MS. BURKE: Yeah, under FSA rules,

 4 there's a limitation that you can only deposit

 5 client money, which is equivalent to seg, up to 20

 6 percent with an affiliate. There's a limitation

 7 there.

 8 MR. BARNETT: Other thoughts?

 9 MR. PARKE: Ross Parke. Just to go back

 10 to the disclosure of a number of pieces of

 11 information. Obviously, I think everybody in the

 12 room is for increased transparency. And going

 13 back to having it in a central repository, which

 14 is similar information, same information which is

 15 auditable by someone such as Dan with NFA or

 16 another group. I think that's the key in taking

 17 the information up, the brokers, the external

 18 brokers or affiliates having that information all

 19 in one location where you can see the information

 20 side by side, I think that's the key. If it's on

 21 websites that are controlled by the FCMs, I think

 22 there's more risk for manipulation of that
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 1 information. I think, as you go down the

 2 rulemaking road, I would encourage you to look at

 3 how that information is stored, gathered, when

 4 it's distributed, is it same day, is there a delay

 5 similar to the financial data. When you get to

 6 information such as the SIDR report, that holds

 7 all of the custodians, it does have all of the

 8 bank locations.

 9 So, going back to an analogy referenced

 10 earlier, the run on the bank; well, there are

 11 banks on there, and if Barclays decides to move

 12 its balances from one bank to another, that could

 13 be a purely commercial decision, it could be --

 14 and it could be viewed incorrectly by clients if

 15 they see that movement on the bank balances. So I

 16 think that we just need to be careful how that

 17 information is displayed and distributed.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Mike?

 19 MR. DAWLEY: I have two quick examples

 20 of where information could be misused, maybe

 21 they're relevant or not, but, you know, for

 22 example, if -- one thing we've talked about is
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 1 disclosing where margin sits throughout the world.

 2 And I may disclose that I have X amount of initial

 3 margin or client asset sitting at Eurex. And I

 4 happen to have some big clients who often will

 5 shift their investment strategy from Europe to the

 6 U.S., and suddenly, the public is seeing a huge

 7 drop in Eurex margin and a huge increase in CME

 8 margin. Is that something that we should be

 9 worried about? Maybe I don't care, but maybe the

 10 clients who are trying to shift their position

 11 would care. So that's a potential unintended

 12 consequence. Also, just public disclosure, and I

 13 don't know if you meant it to be public, Nevis,

 14 but even the brokers we might be using in a

 15 particular jurisdiction. Should a potential

 16 customer have access to that? Yes. Should the

 17 regulators have access? Yes. But should

 18 everybody in the world have access to that? I

 19 don't know. Same sort of deal, you know, if

 20 someone sees that Goldman Sachs uses X broker in a

 21 particular jurisdiction, and they see unusual

 22 activity or something, can they gain that sort of
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 1 data? Just something to think about.

 2 MS. TAYLOR: Or another example would be

 3 if Goldman Sachs used broker X in the

 4 jurisdiction, and for commercial reasons, just

 5 like you mentioned, you moved your bank balances

 6 to another bank for commercial reasons, you move

 7 to another carrying broker for commercial reasons,

 8 and the market misinterprets that as --

 9 MR. DAWLEY: Good point.

 10 MS. TAYLOR: A vote of no confidence in

 11 that carrying broker. I mean, those are the types

 12 of things I think we want to be sure that we think

 13 through all of the possible unintended

 14 consequences as we develop the disclosure. Which

 15 I'm in agreement with more disclosure being

 16 better, but we don't want it to have unfortunate

 17 unintended consequences.

 18 MS. BREGASI: Sorry, can I jump in? So,

 19 Mike, I think my example was just information,

 20 too, on the statement to the client, so it

 21 wouldn't be anything that goes out to the public.

 22 And then two other points; just the point about
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 1 generally not making something a requirement.

 2 Just for example, not using an affiliate as a

 3 custodian, because clients can just pick if they

 4 don't like that, they can go to another FCM. One

 5 concern is if you have five of the largest FCMs

 6 doing that, then where am I going? So is that

 7 making me not use those top five FCMs and moving

 8 down the list when I don't want to. So that's

 9 just one issue with leaving it up to disclosure

 10 and not making it a requirement.

 11 And then, since we're talking about

 12 local FCMs and picking local FCMs and moving from

 13 one to the other, I don't know if this is the

 14 place for this, but another thing that's worth

 15 considering is, what duties does an FCM have when

 16 they're picking local FCMs for clients? Since, as

 17 I've said before, we're choosing to do business in

 18 that market, but we're not actually picking the

 19 local FCMs, so it would be good to understand what

 20 types of due diligence does the U.S. FCM do when

 21 picking local FCMs, how much of that can be given

 22 to the client and how much of that is ongoing?
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Christine?

 2 MS. AYOTTE-BRENNAN: Christine Brennan

 3 from Fidelity. I'm getting back to the unintended

 4 consequences argument. I think we do have to be

 5 extremely thoughtful about how we present this

 6 information so we don't have unintended

 7 consequences. However, in a couple of the

 8 examples that I've heard of moving for commercial

 9 reasons, I think that's a good story for an FCM,

 10 right? So it gets back to disclosure, you're

 11 moving from one bank to another for a commercial

 12 reason, or from a clearinghouse to another for a

 13 commercial reason. Why not disclose that? Hey,

 14 we moved from X to Y because we think they can

 15 give us better service. I mean, I think that's a

 16 good story and can be disclosed in a way that

 17 doesn't create these unintended consequences.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Warren?

 19 MR. DAVIS: Just to make it a little

 20 more complicated. In our negotiations of clearing

 21 arrangements, talking about disclosure issues, one

 22 of the points that was made by a number of FCMs
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 1 was we can't give you that information because

 2 we're not giving it to everybody else, and there's

 3 potential, you know, inappropriate disclosure to

 4 some people and not to others. So that's why we

 5 sort of urged a lot of this information to be made

 6 public, so we take that issue off the table.

 7 MR. DAWLEY: Just to be clear, that

 8 point wasn't made here today, right?

 9 MR. DAVIS: (Laughter) No, today,

 10 everyone's transparent, I don't recall that being

 11 made, no.

 12 MR. BARNETT: So how do we close the

 13 gap? I hear a lot of buy side concerns about

 14 disclosure, and then concerns on the other side

 15 about, you know, excess disclosure. How do we

 16 find the right balance, what do we do?

 17 MR. DAWLEY: I'll jump in. Look, I

 18 think the FIA has already kind of started a

 19 process, here, and we would welcome the buy side

 20 to also participate, along with the SROs and the

 21 exchanges. I think it's, there's a complete

 22 alignment and synchronization across the FCMs, the
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 1 CCPs, and the regulators that a more educated

 2 client is a better client. So I think we should

 3 work as an industry to just make sure we have the

 4 proper education out there, whether it's via some

 5 sort of informational portal or more disclosure

 6 docs, et cetera. I think there shouldn't be any

 7 disagreement around here as to that being an

 8 objective. And I think, during that process, we

 9 can delve into the detail around what type of

 10 information is easily presented to the public

 11 versus --

 12 MR. BARNETT: Where does that process

 13 take place? I mean, what are you proposing? I'm

 14 just trying to understand, how is that

 15 communication and dialog and --

 16 MR. DAWLEY: Where does the

 17 communication take place to form that --

 18 MR. BARNETT: Getting together -- and --

 19 MR. DAWLEY: Yeah. I don't know, I

 20 would recommend -- I don't know how Walt feels

 21 about this, but I think we could utilize the same

 22 FIA task force that was created to work on that.
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 1 That contains the SROs and the exchanges, and we

 2 could add buy side participation to that, and try

 3 and craft some sort of a plan and come back to

 4 you. Does that make sense?

 5 MR. BARNETT: Yeah, that would be great.

 6 MR. LUKKEN: And I don't think there's

 7 as big of an out trade as you might think. I

 8 mean, I just think everybody around this room, I

 9 think, is actually pretty close to sort of

 10 understanding where the tradeoffs have to occur

 11 and the disclosures that will have to happen, so

 12 we're happy to host a round table if that's

 13 necessary. Certainly, we don't have the force of

 14 law that we have with disclosures. We can

 15 encourage, we can try to get on the bully pulpit

 16 and encourage our firms to do these things, but I

 17 think it's going to ultimately be the SROs and the

 18 regulators that are going to have to --

 19 MR. BARNETT: I mean, we could do

 20 another round table that focuses just on this one

 21 issue --

 22 MR. LUKKEN: Yeah.
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 1 MR. BARNETT: And have, you know, the

 2 buy side with their list of issues. I don't know

 3 how else to do it, but it seems like you started,

 4 with the way Mike is suggesting, would narrow it

 5 somewhat and see where the real disagreements

 6 really are.

 7 MR. LUKKEN: Absolutely, absolutely.

 8 And we're happy to host that, so.

 9 MR. COCCO: I just had a suggestion --

 10 this is Alessandro -- we've been working with the

 11 buy side, some of the people here today, on some

 12 other related issues, for instance, the

 13 implementation of pre trade limits for swaps. And

 14 that's been very fruitful. We've had the

 15 clearinghouses, the staff exchanges present,

 16 buy/sell side. So I think that having the

 17 opportunity -- and that was within FIA, as well,

 18 so having the opportunity to have one of those

 19 meetings, as well, like Mike was saying, would be

 20 helpful.

 21 MR. THUM: It's Bill Thum with Vanguard

 22 -- I'll second that. I think the FIA has provided
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 1 a really strong forum and has been very productive

 2 in terms of producing the execution agreement, in

 3 terms of producing the cleared swaps addendum, and

 4 I think that this will be another great area for

 5 us to work on in a partnership. And we, the buy

 6 side participated in meetings as late as

 7 yesterday, so we actively work with the FCMs and

 8 DCOs on these sorts of issues, so I think we could

 9 probably make some good progress on that.

 10 MR. BARNETT: Sounds good. What I would

 11 propose is, if there's nothing anybody wants to

 12 immediately raise, we'll take a 15 minute break

 13 before we start the third session. Thank you all

 14 very much.

 15 (Recess)

 16 MR. BARNETT: So first an announcement.

 17 So FIA has a new FAQ, and it's on the side over

 18 there, on the table over there, and you can pick

 19 one up, and it's also on the website. Okay. Now,

 20 this last session of the day, it's sort of free

 21 form, free style, and we're talking about

 22 alternative models to seg, and what we really mean
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 1 is any kind of substitute, add-on, variant.

 2 People have asked me, well, can we talk about

 3 insurance. The answer is yes.

 4 And so, what we're trying to do is

 5 figure out, we've tried to invite people who are

 6 part of, or advocating, or whatever, just part of

 7 the industry discussion of different

 8 considerations. Again, these substitutes, add-on,

 9 variants and so on. So it would help us to

 10 understand what's going on in the market, how each

 11 of you know what's going on, help people connect

 12 to each other if you're not part of a conversation

 13 that's happening by itself, that sort of a thing.

 14 So what we're going to do is we're going to

 15 quickly -- you know, we'll actually introduce

 16 ourselves, go around, and then what we'll do is,

 17 and Cam's going to help me, every time we come to

 18 -- we'll go around the room, and everyone who's

 19 got a new one, we'll write it on the board, and

 20 we'll come up with a list. So just give it, like,

 21 a two minute, here's who, I'm working with this

 22 particular group, and we're pursuing such and such
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 1 a thing, and don't go into a long thing about it

 2 because we will come back around.

 3 We'll get a list created of what our

 4 discussion topics are, and then we'll go back

 5 through it again, okay? Bob?

 6 MR. WASSERMAN: I would make one

 7 request, which is; help delineate, from your

 8 perspective, which of the things that we can do

 9 within our current regulatory structure, which are

 10 those things for which we can, by regulation,

 11 change and accomplish, and which are those things

 12 which, in order to accomplish, we would need

 13 Congressional action.

 14 MR. BARNETT: And I think you can do

 15 that when we come back around to the topic

 16 discussion, let's get a list up there first, okay?

 17 But let's go around and introduce ourselves, and

 18 -- so Gary Barnett, I'm Director of DSIO.

 19 MR. PICCOLI: Kevin Piccoli, Deputy

 20 Director.

 21 MR. WASSERMAN: Bob Wasserman, Chief

 22 Counsel Clearing and Risk.
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 1 MR. COOPER: Charley Cooper, State

 2 Street.

 3 MR. HURST: Steve Hurst, Merchants Data

 4 Repository.

 5 MR. KEMP: Todd Kemp, National Grain and

 6 Feed Association.

 7 MR. ROTHMAN: Howard Rothman, Vision

 8 Financial Markets.

 9 MR. FOLEY: Kevin Foley, Katten Muchin

 10 Rosenman, and I'm half of FIA.

 11 MR. LUKKEN: Walt Lukken, FIA.

 12 MR. DAWLEY: Mike Dawley, Goldman Sachs.

 13 MR. DAVIS: Warren Davis, Sutherland, on

 14 behalf of Federal Home Loan Banks.

 15 MR. PERKINS: Chris Perkins, Citi.

 16 MS. AYOTTE-BRENNAN: Christine

 17 Ayotte-Brennan from Fidelity.

 18 MR. THUM: Bill Thum from Vanguard and

 19 the ICI.

 20 MS. BREGASI: Nevis Bregasi, MFS and

 21 ICI.

 22 MR. RICHARDSON: Bob Richardson from
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 1 Richardson Consulting.

 2 MR. YERES: David Yeres from Clifford

 3 Chance.

 4 MR. DRISCOLL: Dan Driscoll, NFA.

 5 MR. ROE: John Roe with BTR Trading

 6 Group on behalf of the Commodity Customer

 7 Coalition.

 8 MS. BURKE: Maureen Burke, Bank of

 9 America, Maryland, representing FIA.

 10 MS. TAYLOR: Kim Taylor, CME Clearing.

 11 MR. NUNERY: And Cam Nunery, Office of

 12 Chief Economist.

 13 MR. BARNETT: Okay. So now we'll go

 14 back around, and Cam will help make this list.

 15 Again, if your product is already mentioned, just

 16 pass, if you don't have, if you're one of the

 17 other experts on the participants, that's okay.

 18 We'll just go around to find the first time for a

 19 product and get a list made up, okay? We'll start

 20 with Charley.

 21 MR. COOPER: State Street is going to

 22 talk about, and you have a presentation in front
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 1 of you for Tri-Party custody.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Tri-Party custody, okay.

 3 Steve?

 4 MR. HURST: MDR is going to present

 5 something very similar to Charley's, but where

 6 it's an industry owned and operated service bureau

 7 that facilitates the Tri-Party custody model for

 8 futures and cleared swaps.

 9 MR. BARNETT: Okay. So service bureau,

 10 no problem. Todd?

 11 MR. KEMP: National Grain and Feed

 12 Association has recommended a couple things, one

 13 is an optional full segregation structure, could

 14 involve something similar to what Charley's going

 15 to talk about, could be different. We've not

 16 suggested a particular model. Also, we believe

 17 that some form of insurance coverage needs to be

 18 layered in, in addition to that full seg structure

 19 for customers that opt not to go full seg.

 20 MR. BARNETT: Okay. So let's put

 21 optional -- put insurance, yeah. And I know

 22 there's are others with insurance, okay, we'll
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 1 just get a list up. Howard?

 2 MR. ROTHMAN: I'll pass, insurance is on

 3 there.

 4 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Kevin, pass.

 5 Warren?

 6 MR. DAVIS: I won't pass. We've been

 7 thinking about the problems with LSOC, the gaps.

 8 LSOC goes a long way, but could they be partially,

 9 at least, addressed by having the clearinghouses

 10 guarantee the margin payments for the day before

 11 default until the trades get moved, so that

 12 customers would have claims not against a

 13 defaulting FCM, but against the clearinghouse?

 14 MR. BARNETT: So we should call that,

 15 what, DCO guarantee, or -- we'll call that DCO

 16 guarantee, limited guarantee. Very limited.

 17 MR. PERKINS: Pass.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Pass, okay. Christine?

 19 Bill?

 20 MR. THUM: So I have a list of, I'll

 21 call it LSOC gaps that perhaps could be plugged by

 22 through interpretive guidance or a possible
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 1 additional rule making.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Okay. We'll call it LSOC

 3 gaps.

 4 MS. BREGASI: So, other than the LSOC

 5 gaps, excess being held at the DCO?

 6 MR. BARNETT: No, okay. David?

 7 MR. YERES: David Yeres. I'm not sure,

 8 and not having read the State Street presentation

 9 about third party custody agreements, I'm

 10 interested in talking about perhaps supplementing

 11 Interp 10, or alternatively setting up a direct

 12 relationship between certain customers and the

 13 clearing organization. This may overlap with

 14 what's already been discussed.

 15 MR. BARNETT: Okay. What should we call

 16 that one?

 17 MR. WASSERMAN: Guaranteed Clearing

 18 Participant, by chance?

 19 MR. BARNETT: We could call it that.

 20 (Laughter)

 21 MR. DRISCOLL: I'll pass.

 22 MR. BARNETT: Put down GCP.
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 1 MR. ROE: Insurance, but as well,

 2 bankruptcy reform.

 3 MR. BARNETT: And bankruptcy reform?

 4 MR. ROE: Insurance and bankruptcy

 5 reform, uhhuh.

 6 MR. BARNETT: Okay. All right, let's

 7 see if we can group any of these. I think, to

 8 give the appropriate freedom to everybody, we'll

 9 just go back, we'll just start at the top and go

 10 on. Now, we've got some overlap, and the speaker

 11 will just take it into account, okay? You've got

 12 -- how many topics have we got there, Cam? Nine.

 13 And we have how much time? So we have about five

 14 or six minutes per type, I guess. So what I would

 15 suggest is maybe take two or three minutes to

 16 explain the idea, and then let's open it to the

 17 floor for questions or observations, okay? So,

 18 Charley, you've got, talk to us about the first

 19 one.

 20 MR. COOPER: Yeah, I'd be happy to,

 21 thank you very much. All in front of you, you

 22 have a presentation from State Street entitled
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 1 Tri-Party Custody. I won't run through the entire

 2 presentation, in part to keep you all awake, but I

 3 think there are a couple of different things that

 4 I want to touch on, and the first one is to

 5 address Bob's initial question about current

 6 regulatory scheme, a future regulatory scheme, and

 7 what would require Congressional action. The

 8 proposal you have in front of you for Tri-Party

 9 could not be done in the current regulatory

 10 scheme, but the fix is actually, we believe, quite

 11 simple, and it would require a revocation of the

 12 amendment to Interp 10 that was issued in May of

 13 2005, which prohibited Tri-Party custody

 14 arrangements in the futures markets. There is a

 15 second piece related to ratable distribution,

 16 which we can talk about, which would require a

 17 change to the bankruptcy code, but let's be clear,

 18 it is not necessary to allow for Tri-Party

 19 accounts. Tri-Party accounts can exist within the

 20 current bankruptcy code. However, the monies in

 21 those accounts would still be considered customer

 22 property under 766(h) under Subsection 766 of the
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 1 Bankruptcy Code. So, the overall review;

 2 Tri-Party custody accounts are already in place

 3 here in the U.S., they are an option for people

 4 trading uncleared swaps, they are allowed under

 5 LSOC when LSOC goes into effect in November for

 6 cleared swaps. They are mandated under the CFTC

 7 for 40 Act mutual funds that are clearing through

 8 affiliates in the futures markets, and they are

 9 used in Europe, they are allowed regulatorily in

 10 Europe for futures markets. So, in a sense, the

 11 U.S. futures market is a bit of an outlier in not

 12 allowing it, and the current regime that disallows

 13 it for futures is at odds with the LSOC regime,

 14 which would allow for it in cleared swaps. That's

 15 sort of a broad brush. A Tri-Party custody

 16 account is literally just that, it is a custody

 17 account that is agreed to between a custodian, the

 18 futures commission merchant and their client for

 19 use for initial margin and excess margin. The

 20 reason variation margin is not included is because

 21 variation margin is effectively a passthrough,

 22 moving back and forth as positions move one way or
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 1 the other throughout a day. And at the end of the

 2 day, the variation movement is just that, it's a

 3 passthrough, it wouldn't require a custody

 4 account. I guess the easiest way to do this would

 5 be just to explain real quick how this works. If

 6 you go to the third slide, there's the only

 7 diagram in this otherwise word heavy PowerPoint

 8 presentation. In a Tri-Party account, when a

 9 position is put on by a customer and a margin call

 10 is made by the clearinghouse to that customer's

 11 FCM, when an FCM is willing to engage in a

 12 Tri-Party custody account, the FCM satisfies the

 13 margin call to the clearinghouse in the form of

 14 the accepted collateral by the clearinghouse. And

 15 the customer posts to a Tri-Party account the same

 16 amount or excess amounts of margin to be held

 17 within that custody account, which is opened in

 18 the name of the FCM on behalf of the client. The

 19 reason this is very important is because it's

 20 clear, within the confines of the agreement, that

 21 the FCM has unfettered access to those monies when

 22 those monies are needed. So the Tri-Party account
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 1 would operate, again, as a custody account where

 2 the margin monies from the client are kept at the

 3 custodian. And what this would do is preclude the

 4 type of misuse, intentional or unintentional, that

 5 we saw at places like Peregrine or MF Global.

 6 This does not, as discussed earlier, change the

 7 Bankruptcy Code, the proposal, the first part of

 8 the proposal revoking Interp 10, and therefore,

 9 monies kept in this custody account, this

 10 Tri-Party account, would still be subject to the

 11 ratable distribution under the Bankruptcy Code.

 12 That would be the second piece. But the CFTC has

 13 the ability now to revoke Interp 10's amendment,

 14 and I think it's 10-1, from May of 2005. A couple

 15 of the benefits, though, I'll just run through,

 16 and then be happy to take questions. First of

 17 all, we've already discussed it, we're talking

 18 about a protected account at a custodian, so that

 19 that money, while it's there and the FCM can have

 20 access to it, it can only have access to it in

 21 whatever times it's necessary to meet margin

 22 calls, or if the client is in breach of the
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 1 Tri-Party custody agreement. Therefore, the kinds

 2 of excess monies we saw in MF Global that

 3 disappeared would not be there to disappear in the

 4 first place. Second piece is independent

 5 verification of customer cash and collateral.

 6 This is something that custody banks do all the

 7 time, and that's deliver a daily statement from

 8 the Tri-Party account, or from the custodian to

 9 the client. Under current rules in LSOC,

 10 customers can get statements from an FCM, but they

 11 cannot get independent verification from either

 12 the FCM's bank or the CCP's. So they have to be

 13 relying upon the FCM's statement, which I think we

 14 recently saw in Peregrine, it's not necessarily

 15 worth as much as it could be. Third thing, the

 16 FCM plays a critical role in substituting their

 17 own cash and collateral. This is important

 18 because, in this system, the clearinghouse remains

 19 fully funded, as it would in the current system.

 20 So the Tri-Party monies that are kept in that

 21 custody account are separate and apart from monies

 22 that the FCM are putting up, and the CCP is fully
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 1 funded the entire time. And the final piece is

 2 that this creates less movement in terms of cash

 3 and collateral through the system every day, which

 4 decreases operational breakages and also mitigates

 5 operational risk. Margining works the same way as

 6 it does, bankruptcy works the same way as it does,

 7 the legal agreements, as I said, would be between

 8 those three parties. But the overall change,

 9 while different from the way things are going now,

 10 as I said, it's already in place in a number of

 11 other markets, and would require what is a small

 12 regulatory fix in terms of the revocation of

 13 Interp 10-1 from 2005.

 14 MR. BARNETT: Okay.

 15 MR. COOPER: That's the really truncated

 16 version.

 17 MR. BARNETT: Okay, great, thank you --

 18 MR. COOPER: We still --

 19 MR. BARNETT: I wish we had more time.

 20 MR. COOPER: No, understood.

 21 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Questions? Luke,

 22 Walt?
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 1 MR. LUKKEN: No, Charley. The Tri-Party

 2 custody bank, is it a registrant or just a

 3 contractual arrangement? Would it fit in some

 4 registration category or would it just be

 5 contractual between the FCM and the CCP?

 6 MR. COOPER: As it's currently

 7 structured, we're proposing it would not be a

 8 registrant, but to CFTC, if it so chose, could

 9 create a separate registrant category, which would

 10 be in addition to the Interp 10 revocation, if

 11 they so chose to do that. But as of right now,

 12 they would not be a registrant.

 13 MR. LUKKEN: Thanks.

 14 MR. BARNETT: Mike?

 15 MR. DAWLEY: I had a question, Charley,

 16 on the FCM/CCP relationship. Who is posting

 17 collateral to the CCP?

 18 MR. COOPER: The FCM.

 19 MR. DAWLEY: And whose collateral is

 20 that?

 21 MR. COOPER: It's the FCM's.

 22 MR. DAWLEY: Okay. So there's a funding
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 1 requirement on the FCM?

 2 MR. COOPER: Yes, correct.

 3 MR. DAWLEY: Okay.

 4 MR. COOPER: Actually, one other thing,

 5 if I could, which I just realized, and then

 6 questions. I should stress that this is optional,

 7 what we are proposing is optional in two different

 8 ways. First of all, the regulators wouldn't

 9 mandate that everyone use Tri-Party, but it would

 10 allow people to use Tri-Party, customers to use

 11 Tri-Party if they so chose. Second of all, we're

 12 also not asking the Commission to mandate FCMs to

 13 make it available, that would be on an FCM-by-FCM

 14 basis. So if an FCM made a determination that the

 15 Tri-Party model was not something they were

 16 comfortable with for risk management or whatever

 17 business reasons, they would not be forced into

 18 this regime, that would be a business decision.

 19 So there's two layers of optionality in this.

 20 Sorry, Kim, I interpreted you.

 21 MR. BARNETT: Kim?

 22 MS. TAYLOR: Actually, I didn't kind of
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 1 add anything to the initial list because I thought

 2 things were covered that we're working on, but

 3 we're working on also a version of this optional

 4 Tri-Party custody type of arrangement --

 5 MR. COOPER: Yeah.

 6 MS. TAYLOR: That does two things that

 7 you didn't mention, here.

 8 MR. COOPER: Okay.

 9 MS. TAYLOR: One -- and they're not

 10 probably unlike GCP, although I think we can do it

 11 without, quote/unquote, GCP, that allows for there

 12 to be a fourth party so that clearinghouse can be

 13 a party, and that eliminates the funding problem

 14 that is part of the Tri-Party arrangement --

 15 MR. COOPER: Right.

 16 MS. TAYLOR: The FCM has to completely

 17 fund. And then the other thing is that, by

 18 structuring it in such a way that the first

 19 priority in the account is for the CCP versus the

 20 FCM. Our counsel has advised us that it becomes

 21 not a pro rata, a distributable property --

 22 MR. COOPER: Right.
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 1 MS. TAYLOR: It's not customer property

 2 under the way the bankruptcy regs are written, so

 3 it might be able to provide both levels of

 4 protection, the malfeasance protection, and the

 5 pro rata distribution protection, but it's --

 6 other than that, it sounds like just another

 7 flavor of what you're suggesting and what would be

 8 involving custodial would be Interp 10 to probably

 9 come off and all that.

 10 MR. COOPER: Right. I addressed

 11 Tri-Party, but obviously, the quad party that you

 12 all have been discussing is something we're

 13 willing to discuss, too.

 14 MR. BARNETT: Todd? Sorry, Warren?

 15 MR. DAVIS: I just want to ask a

 16 question. If one out of ten customers elected

 17 this, and then the funds disappeared from the nine

 18 others who didn't, isn't the person elected still

 19 going to suffer, because he's going to share pro

 20 rata and the loss? So what is the real benefit to

 21 the client?

 22 MR. COOPER: The benefit -- you're right
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 1 in the sense that, if the Bankruptcy -- well, I

 2 can't speak to Kim's quad party proposal, but in

 3 the Tri-Party proposal, in terms of the Bankruptcy

 4 Code, you're right, they would still suffer in

 5 their pro rata, a bit of a loss. Where this would

 6 have an effect is in a situation where the hole

 7 exists, or there's a misuse of funds at the FCM,

 8 MF Global, Peregrine, where the FCM wouldn't have

 9 the monies there to misallocate or lose, because

 10 it would be sitting in a custody account. So,

 11 yes, you're right in the event of a bankruptcy and

 12 there's a hole, without a change to the Bankruptcy

 13 Code, they would be sharing in that pro rata loss,

 14 that's correct. But, in terms of actually

 15 preventing fraud or misuse, not in the event of a

 16 bankruptcy, keeping monies at the custodian

 17 outside of the FCM is a layer of protection that

 18 the client could choose.

 19 MR. DAVIS: But that only works if

 20 everybody elects to use it.

 21 MR. COOPER: No, it only works for the

 22 clients who elect to use it.
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 1 MS. BREGASI: No, because if there is

 2 fraud in the rest of money, we're still pro rata

 3 sharing with everybody else's fraud. So if

 4 there's a short fall because the rest of the money

 5 that was fraud or misused there, doesn't the

 6 client that has a Tri-Party still share in that?

 7 MR. COOPER: Are we talking about the

 8 case of a default? I mean, maybe I'm not

 9 understanding.

 10 MS. BREGASI: If there's an insolvency

 11 and there's a short fall, and the short fall was

 12 caused because the FCM, there was either fraud or

 13 some sort of misuse of the customer funds that are

 14 not in the Tri-Party --

 15 MR. COOPER: Right.

 16 MS. BREGASI: Wouldn't the people who

 17 have the Tri-Party still pro rata share in that

 18 short fall?

 19 MR. COOPER: Yes. Again, that's in the

 20 case of an insolvency, yes.

 21 MS. TAYLOR: But that would be true with

 22 LSOC, too. I mean, there hasn't been a suggestion
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 1 put forward yet that would fully product the

 2 clients from some malfeasance risk.

 3 MR. ROE: With the exception of

 4 insurance.

 5 MS. TAYLOR: Well, insurance, or the

 6 quad party type of arrangement that gets you

 7 outside of the pro rata distribution.

 8 MR. THUM: I guess my question is, does

 9 the FCM benefit from the margin held at the

 10 custody bank? In other words, in terms of the

 11 investment of the margin, and then the upside in

 12 terms of investment, does the FCM direct the

 13 investments and reap the benefits of it, or is

 14 that severed?

 15 MR. COOPER: No, as envisioned, they

 16 would not continue to reap the benefits as they

 17 currently do, which we understand certain FCMs

 18 would not be happy with. But we would imagine,

 19 although I don't have any specific numbers to put

 20 against it, that would be included in the pricing

 21 the FCM would charge for allowing Tri-Party and

 22 for satisfying the margin calls that were required
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 1 by the CCP.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Okay, Todd?

 3 MR. KEMP: Yeah, I was just going to

 4 say, I think, conceptually, we very much like

 5 Charley's ideas, we like Kim's idea, you can

 6 probably combine No. 3 with No. 1 over there. But

 7 I think Kim's point is a really important one,

 8 which speaks to the concern over here; if this is

 9 really going to be of benefit to the customers who

 10 choose to use it, there's got to be a fix to the

 11 customer funds, the customer property definition,

 12 either by amending the Bankruptcy Code or by

 13 finding an appropriate account structure that

 14 doesn't define customer funds as customer funds.

 15 MS. BREGASI: So, sorry, isn't the only

 16 benefit to this, then, the reporting piece? Which

 17 is, for the client that has the Tri-Party, the DCO

 18 can see exactly what collateral they have with the

 19 FCM instead of having to base their information on

 20 what the FCM reports to the DCO. Is that --

 21 MR. COOPER: That's a definite benefit,

 22 yeah.
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 1 MS. TAYLOR: Actually, I'm going to

 2 challenge that, because the Tri-Party doesn't have

 3 the, the DCO sees nothing about the Tri-Party

 4 account. In the Tri-Party, the way I understand

 5 it, the way you laid it out, the assets that are

 6 in the Tri-Party account are in effect idle.

 7 They're margining the client's position, but the

 8 clearing member is forced to then doubly fund,

 9 because the client's margin can't be even

 10 appropriately passed through to the clearinghouse.

 11 So it actually will effectively double the amount

 12 of collateral that is needed in the system to

 13 support the activities of the business, which is

 14 certainly an option, but I think we need to

 15 consider that these types of frameworks have to

 16 work -- in order for them to work, they have to

 17 work for you, they have to work for the firms, and

 18 they have to work for the clearinghouses.

 19 And, personally, I look at this one, and

 20 think it is a very large demand and additional

 21 collateral in a world where we already know the

 22 industry is going to be facing a very large demand
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 1 for extra collateral, even at the end customer

 2 level. So that's just something to keep in mind.

 3 MS. BREGASI: Thank you for clarifying

 4 that. But if that's the case, then it doesn't

 5 help on the reporting piece, as well, and I'm just

 6 taking what's being said at face value. Isn't the

 7 only way for this to actually offer any benefit is

 8 to make it mandatory? Meaning to make it

 9 mandatory so that each client of the FCM must use

 10 a Tri-Party? I mean, maybe what you can do is

 11 have the FCM choose to either offer this or not

 12 offer this, but that it must do so for all

 13 clients. So certain FCMs might choose to be in

 14 this business and other FCMs might choose not to

 15 be in this business, but if they give it for all

 16 clients, then at least we know we are getting the

 17 benefit of not having to share in the pro rata

 18 short fall, if there is one.

 19 MR. PERKINS: I tend to -- this is Chris

 20 Perkins from Citi -- I tend to agree. I think,

 21 without a change to 766(h), this solution is

 22 expensive and it still exposes clients to loss.
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 1 As far as verification goes, we've initiated a

 2 transparency website of our own, and there's

 3 nothing on our site to prevent verification from a

 4 CCP to validate the numbers that we're putting

 5 out. Also, for our custodian banks, we don't see

 6 why they can't validate that the money that we've

 7 placed with them is actually there. So we think

 8 that the reporting aspect can be accomplished with

 9 the proper focus on transparency today.

 10 MR. BARNETT: All right. Let's --

 11 Steve.

 12 MR. HURST: Thanks. I'm going to echo

 13 much of what Charley said, just at a high level.

 14 There's three components to this that are very,

 15 very important; there's the structural protection,

 16 there's the transparency side of it, and then

 17 there's the debate over whether or not a structure

 18 can be put together that is bankruptcy remote.

 19 Let's just say Charley's right and there's no way

 20 around that without an act of Congress. You're

 21 batting 600, folks, and from the other end of the

 22 spectrum -- and you need to think about this from
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 1 where Todd's constituents are coming from -- not

 2 from the big institutional investor, but from the

 3 folks that got hurt in these last debacles, the

 4 folks that are required, by law, when they're

 5 buying crops forward, to hedge their positions, to

 6 be short in the market. They're the folks that

 7 got hurt by MF Global, and what they're asking

 8 for, and the NGFA has a very powerful letter that

 9 they've submitted to every member of the House Ag

 10 Committee, every member of the Senate Ag

 11 Committee, and all the Commissioners here,

 12 demanding some sort of optional program in which

 13 funds can be held in segregation tested in a pilot

 14 program. The only thing where you and I differ at

 15 all is, I think the question of whether or not the

 16 revenues from the investment of the proceeds are

 17 shared with the FCMs, that's a discussion between

 18 the client and the FCM. There's are some clients

 19 that might be just fine with that, they've been

 20 fine with that structure for years, it has

 21 resulted in lower execution costs. That's up to

 22 the market to decide. I don't think it should be
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 1 something that has to be done by anybody, because

 2 some of the customers that Todd represents can't

 3 afford it. So what I'm advocating, and I'm number

 4 two there, is that the industry to come together

 5 and create a service bureau that exists to support

 6 the FCM community. Many of these firms are

 7 already operating individually segregated

 8 accounts, they are really expensive, they're

 9 operationally complex, they are not scaleable, and

 10 everybody has a platform that does it. These

 11 platforms do the same thing for every one of these

 12 firms, and they gain no competitive advantage in

 13 it, it's just the cost of doing business. So why

 14 doesn't the industry come together, find a way to

 15 build one platform, structure it inside a utility,

 16 share the costs so that it can be affordable, and

 17 make it available to the FCM -- and that's the

 18 important point. This is a service bureau that

 19 I'm proposing that supports the FCM. So the FCM

 20 for a client that, as far as the FCM is concerned,

 21 can qualify to hold the segregated account, they

 22 can offer them that choice, and let the client
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 1 make a decision based on the client's own

 2 evaluation of the cost and the benefit. State

 3 Street has a platform that supports all of the

 4 Tri-Party custody arrangements that it holds in

 5 the market today. BNY Mellon has a platform that

 6 supports all the Tri-Party custody accounts that

 7 they hold in the market today. These are

 8 thousands and thousands of accounts. Northern

 9 Trust has a platform. Those platforms are all

 10 built on the same architecture, that technology is

 11 battle-tested, it has survived and worked very,

 12 very well through some major market meltdowns, and

 13 that platform is available in the market today.

 14 And this utility that I'm proposing be formed can

 15 leverage that technology. I'm proposing that we

 16 put it into use now. One of the things I'm asking

 17 and that Todd is asking for, as well, is a pilot

 18 program for the folks that have an interest in

 19 doing this. And some people may not. But for

 20 those that have an interest in doing it, we'd like

 21 to create a safe harbor where they can come in, we

 22 can bring some technology in, we can bring some
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 1 customers in that have an interest in testing the

 2 model. We can bring some FCMs in that would like

 3 to facilitate their clients, and that's the

 4 important point. I mean, what I haven't heard a

 5 lot of here today is how do we take care of the

 6 needs of the lower end of the market that has a

 7 legitimate need for structural protection and

 8 transparency. And if they'd like to give this a

 9 go, why not, and why don't we do it today? And

 10 then my last point, let's -- just go with me for a

 11 second, here, and let's say that there were 10 or

 12 15 futures commission merchants in this room that

 13 think that maybe there's something to this and

 14 they'd like to have a go at it. There's all this

 15 talk about insurance and how expensive insurance

 16 is going to be. I don't think so. First, monies

 17 that would be held in a Tri-Party custody account

 18 are fully insured to start with, so there's a

 19 layer of protection that comes from the fact that

 20 it's sitting in a federally insured depository.

 21 Secondly, we aren't the first industry that has

 22 ever had a crisis like this. Accountants were
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 1 uninsurable after Enron, lawyers have been

 2 uninsurable for years, the medical profession has

 3 found ways to deal with their situation, and they

 4 did it by creating a risk pool, where they've

 5 provided some mutualized level of risk and they've

 6 purchased an excess of insurance policy on top of

 7 it. So if you have a utility, a service bureau

 8 that's holding funds in an account that is already

 9 insured under the existing regime, no act of

 10 Congress required, some layer of protection put on

 11 top of that by a risk pool by the participating

 12 FCMs, take that to the London reinsurance market,

 13 you will have that market competing vigorously to

 14 provide an excess layer of coverage on top of

 15 that. And at that point, you've delivered

 16 something that will be very, very useful to the

 17 people that got hurt at MF Global. So I'm open to

 18 questions about the service bureau model.

 19 MR. BARNETT: David?

 20 MR. YERES: Steve, do you anticipate

 21 that, in the service bureau model, the assets that

 22 are contributed by the customer will be held
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 1 outside of the FCM, but rather by the service

 2 bureau, perhaps as agent for the DCO, and thereby

 3 outside the customer property definition?

 4 MR. HURST: Right, that's the difference

 5 between the model that I'm proposing and the model

 6 that Kim's advancing, is that there would be a

 7 neutral, independent, third party that would

 8 operate the service bureau on behalf of the FCMs.

 9 MR. YERES: But when you say on behalf

 10 of the FCMs, my question again is; will those

 11 assets be outside of the FCM's customer property

 12 estate and therefore not subject to pro rata

 13 distribution in the event of default by the FCM?

 14 MR. HURST: And I can tell you that I've

 15 had not much luck trying to persuade CFTC staff on

 16 this. But let me give you a practical example

 17 that I've asked you to think about, about how

 18 there might be a way around the problem that

 19 David's referring to. A good deal of the money

 20 that was lost in the MF Global situation was from

 21 agricultural merchants that have lines of credit

 22 that they can draw on in order to meet their
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 1 margin requirements. It's standard practice. So

 2 they open an account, they put a position into the

 3 market, the market moves, they're drawing on the

 4 line of credit, the funds are paid into the

 5 omnibus account, there's a default, the firm goes

 6 into bankruptcy. Those firms that are paid are

 7 customer property and are subject to the

 8 jurisdiction of the bankruptcy trustee. The

 9 undrawn portion on that line of credit are

 10 completely bankruptcy remote, they cannot be

 11 touched.

 12 Believe me, if they could, they would

 13 have been. They can't. And that's to Todd's

 14 point about some things that might be done if

 15 you're willing to sit down around a table with

 16 some of the merchants, some of the banks that are

 17 loaning those merchants money, some lawyers that

 18 are of your par, Bob, that know a lot about this,

 19 and see if there aren't some alternative

 20 arrangements that could be made so that you could

 21 hit the trifecta and actually produce a bankruptcy

 22 protected custody account.
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 1 MR. WASSERMAN: So -- MR. Yeres: For

 2 clarification, Steve, I'm sorry, I wasn't

 3 questioning the efficacy of your proposal.

 4 Really, I support it. But I look at it from a

 5 different perspective. I'm looking at it from the

 6 perspective of the institutional participant that

 7 has had these protections in the swaps market up

 8 until now, and would, unless such an approach is

 9 taken, lose those protections upon the insistence

 10 of the statute to clear their trades and work

 11 through FCMs. So I think that there is a very

 12 valid structural solution. I tend to agree that

 13 if the FCM doesn't receive or require the assets,

 14 they're not part of the FCM's estate and should

 15 not be part of the customer property, and I think

 16 that's a very valid approach.

 17 MR. WASSERMAN: So, Steve, you referred

 18 to some conversations we had, and I'm going to

 19 repeat here a question I asked you back when you

 20 were speaking; you mention here that this would

 21 really not require any statutory changes. And so

 22 the concern I have is that we're going to have
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 1 some entity, and you mentioned it might be subject

 2 to regulation because it's subject to, it submits

 3 its rules to us. But, as I mentioned, we've had

 4 some experience with entities under one regulatory

 5 structure doing something that arguably that

 6 regulatory structure was never designed to do.

 7 Sentinel comes to mind. And so the question in my

 8 mind is; how do we have an enforceable regulatory

 9 structure to actually protect those customers who

 10 are electing to try this out?

 11 So that, because, of course, you mention

 12 because there are banks, but banks are rather

 13 famous for following their instructions and

 14 operating in accordance with their agreements, as

 15 opposed to supervising whether those instructions

 16 are the right instructions. And so I'm at a loss

 17 to understand how we can have a -- what is going

 18 to be wearing the clothing of a regulated entity,

 19 but actually seems to me to be entirely outside of

 20 any actual regulatory power, and not benefit from

 21 -- you know, the customer protections aren't

 22 perfect, but --
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 1 MR. BARNETT: Okay, look, we've got to

 2 keep going. Who is the next person who's got

 3 something on the list? Very quickly, and that's

 4 it, we've got to go.

 5 MR. HURST: Let's let form follow

 6 function, we've got lots of choices for

 7 organizational structures. It could be structured

 8 as a non depository trust bank in any number of

 9 states; it could be structured as a bank service

 10 bureau, I'll give you the citation for how that

 11 might work; and lastly, I think you guys have the

 12 power to create another form of registrant

 13 designation. Charley alluded to that. And if you

 14 need the power in order to implement this, we'd be

 15 happy to help you go get it.

 16 MR. BARNETT: Okay. Who's next on the

 17 list? Optional full seg, where do we go for that?

 18 MR. KEMP: That was me, Gary, but I

 19 think we can skip that, I think we've covered just

 20 about everything there.

 21 MR. BARNETT: Okay.

 22 MR. KEMP: The main thing we would say
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 1 is that there does need to be some solution to

 2 this Bankruptcy Code definition of customer

 3 property. That's a big point that we think would

 4 need to be resolved for customers to receive the

 5 full benefit. I think I might have mentioned

 6 insurance, too, and I won't dwell on that too

 7 long, but in our view, the full seg option would

 8 be optional to the customer, it would be an

 9 agreement between the FCM and the customer. And

 10 not all customers would be able or interested in

 11 taking on that additional cost, so we believe some

 12 form of insurance should be layered in on top of

 13 that. Maybe it's some SIPC-like insurance, maybe

 14 there is a private insurance alternative. We are

 15 very interested in exploring the various options

 16 there, but we think that's important for

 17 additional customer protection.

 18 MR. BARNETT: Okay.

 19 MS. BURKE: Gary, can I just ask a

 20 question before we move on?

 21 MR. BARNETT: Yes.

 22 MS. BURKE: It's for both Charley and
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 1 Steve. On your proposals, and even going to the

 2 four party, which seems as though the four party

 3 would not incur the cost of funding, which we know

 4 there's -- especially moving into OTC-cleared,

 5 what's the size, what's the number, how big will

 6 this be? But one of the issues that occurred when

 7 we had Tri-Party previously under Interp 10 is

 8 that there was unauthorized withdrawal of funds,

 9 whereby the custodians would release funds without

 10 the FCM's authority, and they were acting outside

 11 of the Tri-Party custodial arrangement. And the

 12 FCMs basically bore the brunt of that and had, you

 13 know, were cited for that, that they acted outside

 14 of the arrangement. So we would need automation,

 15 and there would have to be some oversight by the

 16 CFTC, and jurisdiction over the custodians or the

 17 service bureau that, in the event of unauthorized

 18 withdrawal, because that's imposing risk to the

 19 system. That's all about the fact that the FCM

 20 has the funds on hand, we're monitoring the

 21 counter party credit risk, and we're guaranteeing

 22 the obligation to the clearinghouse. So that
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 1 would have to be factored in, as well.

 2 MR. HURST: Yes, I agree, and you're the

 3 only one in the position to make credit decisions

 4 about the transactions that are implemented by

 5 your client. So our answer to that is, in the

 6 Tri-Party custody model that exists today over the

 7 counter, you have these, bespoke control

 8 agreements. In our model, it's a rule book. And

 9 it's a rule book that is worked through by the

 10 Commission, and it's in an entity that the,

 11 whether it's set up as a bank or set up as a bank

 12 service bureau, we want it to be subject to CFTC

 13 jurisdiction so the rule book will have the force

 14 of law.

 15 MR. BARNETT: Walt, do you have a

 16 question?

 17 MR. LUKKEN: I was just going to say,

 18 and it's not a theoretical proposition that

 19 Maureen's talking about. Bob mentioned Sentinel,

 20 it was a real life where we couldn't move the

 21 money potentially, and the downstream firms

 22 weren't able, and there was a systemic risk issue
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 1 there. So this is something, but I'm glad to hear

 2 that registration is an option in submitting. So

 3 that, I think, would help to solve for that.

 4 MR. BARNETT: Who's next on the list?

 5 You mentioned insurance first, right, but do we

 6 have other -- DCO limited guarantee?

 7 MR. DAVIS: I may just defer to Bill.

 8 But our thought is that can we avoid at least some

 9 of the limitations of LSOC? And I'm thinking of

 10 this sort of the last day movement of margin by

 11 somehow making that the responsibility of the

 12 clearinghouse, basically mutualizing that

 13 obligation. And our understanding is that, at

 14 least one of the clearinghouses is coming up with

 15 a proposal to essentially do that, and that would

 16 move us forward. I don't think this deals with

 17 the malfeasance risk, but it would be a step

 18 forward. Otherwise, I think I'll just defer to

 19 Bill on gaps.

 20 MR. THUM: Right. So Vanguard has been

 21 very supportive of clearing for swaps and has been

 22 very supportive of LSOC, because it starts to
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 1 introduce many of the protections that are

 2 available in the non cleared swaps market. In the

 3 non cleared market and the over the counter

 4 market, we have daily margining, we post our

 5 margin, it's held by a custodian, we don't suffer

 6 any fellow customer risk. And LSOC, obviously,

 7 was meant to plug that gap that exists in the

 8 futures market currently. So, that being said, we

 9 have some concerns that the reading of the LSOC

 10 rule could conceivably lead to a divergence, in

 11 terms of the level of protection afforded to

 12 different buckets of collateral. So, in terms of

 13 the buckets, we see them, one bucket is the DCO

 14 required margin, initial margin; another bucket is

 15 excess margin, and excess comes up in many forms.

 16 It could be excess that is within the DCO required

 17 margin from day one to day two, the positions

 18 could change, DCOs holding more margin than it

 19 requires on day two. Also, the margin value

 20 itself could go up, so there could be excess

 21 margin at the DCO. The FCMs require a margin,

 22 which would be excess above the DCO required
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 1 margin. There's also a ten percent up charge for

 2 speculative trades, that would be excess above the

 3 DCO required margin. There's margin put into the

 4 system by the FCMs, either put in specifically

 5 with respect to individual customer accounts or,

 6 indeed, an overall buffer. All these are areas of

 7 excess. And the final bucket, I would say, is the

 8 variation margin or the profit/loss that Warren

 9 was talking about. And the concern there, of

 10 course, which we don't experience in the over the

 11 counter market, is that our trades have value or

 12 they don't, and the chips fall where they may,

 13 based on our own investment decisions. And, of

 14 course, we're not really, while we can do a lot of

 15 due diligence on our FCMs, we can do no due

 16 diligence on our fellow customers. So having our

 17 margin either subject to fellow customer risk or,

 18 indeed, our investments themselves, and the profit

 19 and loss associated with them, subject to fellow

 20 customer risk is really unacceptable. So we're

 21 very gratified by the LSOC rule, not only that it

 22 provided some protection against fellow customer
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 1 risk, but it built in a reporting requirement that

 2 we felt largely went to mitigate some of the

 3 operational and fraud risk that's presented in the

 4 system. That being said, as I pointed out in the

 5 beginning, the rules can be read in a couple of

 6 different ways. And while I know that the spirit

 7 of both the author of the rules, and the FCMs, and

 8 the DCOs that are in this room have been to do

 9 everything possible to protect a margin from

 10 fellow customer risk. Certainly, as we are now

 11 down to maybe 90 days until the go live for

 12 November 8th, let alone the later date for

 13 clearing for swaps to apply to swap dealers, or

 14 ultimately to us. We're seeing that there's

 15 tremendous level of practical challenges that are

 16 being applied to fully have LSOC protections apply

 17 to all margin levels. And in considering certain

 18 compromises that may be necessary, too, for the

 19 FCMs to move forward and achieve LSOC protection

 20 for the largest bucket of margin, or perhaps the

 21 most critical bucket of margin, that LSOC is being

 22 read, at this point, in terms of a phased approach
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 1 where heightened protections are applied day one

 2 to DCO required margin, and then ultimately to

 3 excess margin. In looking at some of the rules,

 4 we think that it would help if the CFTC issued

 5 interpretive guidance to clarify the intention of

 6 the some of the rules, starting with 22.1, the

 7 definition of Cleared Swaps Customer Collateral.

 8 And while it presently reads collateral which

 9 secures a cleared swap, we think that should be

 10 clarified to make sure that it refers to all

 11 customer property received by an FCM or a DCO.

 12 Also in the rule, there are other references to

 13 lower case collateral, or lower case margin, and

 14 we think there should be clarified in the

 15 interpretive guidance whether those references to

 16 lower case collateral or margin are to the upper

 17 case defined term, or whether they are meant to

 18 relate to some different definition. In terms of

 19 22.11-(c)(2), we also think interpretive guidance

 20 would help that the FCM's report of a customer's

 21 portfolio of rights and obligations arising from

 22 the cleared swaps includes all customer positions
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 1 and cleared swaps customer collateral. The upper

 2 case defined term, as we just mentioned. We also

 3 think that it would be helpful if the CFTC issued

 4 a new rulemaking to require that such FCMs report

 5 be made as frequently as technologically feasible.

 6 The rule right now requires it be made at least

 7 once each business day. And the DCOs take all

 8 steps necessary to confirm that such FCM's

 9 compliance is accurate and complete. Obviously,

 10 there's are a lot of technical issues based on the

 11 reporting requirement which is causing some of the

 12 anguish in implementing LSOC rules before November

 13 8th. We also feel that the Commission should

 14 consider, maybe sooner rather than later, if there

 15 is to be a phased approach of implementation of

 16 LSOC, should the Commission force the FCMs to

 17 implement LSOC on a limited basis in the near

 18 term, or work and devote all their energies to

 19 implementing LSOC, as we believe it should be

 20 applied to the required margin, all excess margin,

 21 and indeed, variation margin before the clearing

 22 requirement is mandated. So rather than have the
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 1 target date be November 8th, have it be the date

 2 in February for this swap dealers, or the date in

 3 May for the rest of us. Personally, I think that

 4 the buy side will have a limited appetite to

 5 engage in voluntary swap clearing ahead of full

 6 LSOC protection applied to all margin. So I think

 7 it is something to think about, at least, as the

 8 FCMs are forced to, for the earlier deadline, to

 9 apply more limited LSOC protection.

 10 22.13(c)(2), Additions to Cleared Swaps

 11 Customer Collateral; again, interpretive guidance

 12 would be helpful. The DCOs are required to

 13 provide a mechanism by which the FCM is required

 14 to identify each business day the amount of

 15 collateral posted in excess of the amount required

 16 by the DCO. Again, this, now, I think, is being

 17 viewed as a future state, looking at the

 18 protections and the requirements of the FCMs to

 19 provide the report, and the DCOs to require the

 20 report. But we think it should be clarified that

 21 the DCOs are definitely going to require this.

 22 And then, finally, 22.15, the Treatment of Cleared
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 1 Swaps Customer Collateral on an Individual Basis,

 2 confirm in that guidance that the requirement for

 3 the DCO to protect the value of collateral

 4 required, with respect to a portfolio of rights

 5 and obligations, actually includes all upper case

 6 defined term cleared swaps customer collateral.

 7 So rather than an alternative reading of this,

 8 which is that the protection is limited to the DCO

 9 required collateral, and not the excess.

 10 MR. BARNETT: Thanks, Bill.

 11 MS. TAYLOR: Before we have discussion

 12 of this, since we're on the topic of enhancements

 13 to LSOC, could I add a couple --

 14 MR. BARNETT: Okay.

 15 MS. TAYLOR: That I'm not sure that you

 16 mentioned, although one, I think, overlaps a

 17 little bit. One is, there seems to be confusion

 18 about the ability to continue to net the variation

 19 margin at or after the bankruptcy. And I think

 20 our concern is that netting the variation margin

 21 after a bankruptcy increases the risk that

 22 customers have to other customers. And we also
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 1 think that allowing it to be determined

 2 differently by each DCO subjects customers to a

 3 variant of that kind of risk that they have no

 4 ability to control or protect themselves against,

 5 even if they chose not to do business at the

 6 clearinghouse that was going to continue netting

 7 and make the problem worse. So consistency around

 8 the netting of variation margin at a bankruptcy,

 9 and then the other concern that we have is that

 10 the industry is working very hard to try and nail

 11 down the solutions to many of the issues that Bill

 12 mentioned. And we haven't gotten to very much

 13 discussion yet of the netting of variation margin

 14 of bankruptcy, and we haven't gotten yet to the

 15 issue of passing along in a port of positions and

 16 collateral. I have a very large concern that the

 17 way the porting works, it seems that the

 18 clearinghouse is allowed to port over whatever

 19 margin was required for that customer's account at

 20 the DCO, let alone whatever excess might be

 21 determined to belong to the client. But there's

 22 no requirement that that margin actually be on
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 1 deposit in the customer's account. And so if DCOs

 2 are allowed to port more money with a customer's

 3 position than that customer actually has in his

 4 account, that is creating a short fall right

 5 there. And I realize that the trustee will be

 6 able to technically call it back, but any time you

 7 have a trustee spending money, to try and call

 8 back payments that have gone out the door, I think

 9 what you're doing is, you're just depleting the

 10 estate and running the risk that the hole gets

 11 bigger, rather than trying to keep the hole as

 12 small as possible.

 13 MR. PERKINS: I have another improvement

 14 for LSOC. What LSOC does is it removes customer

 15 money from the clearing water fall, and I think we

 16 all welcome that as an improvement to client

 17 protections. I think one of the challenges facing

 18 CCPs is they have to figure out where to make that

 19 collateral back, how do they stay efficient and

 20 make up that short fall. They have some options

 21 in their approach, they can increase initial

 22 margin, they can increase the guarantee funds, or
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 1 they could increase their own contribution. I'd

 2 suggest that thought should be given to tying the

 3 CCP contribution to the ultimate guarantee fund

 4 contribution. That way, that have adequate skin

 5 in the game and don't end up ballooning, for

 6 example, the guarantee fund. If they were to do

 7 so, it would cause a breakdown potentially in

 8 portability, and I think sufficient controls

 9 around the relationship between CCP contribution

 10 and guarantee fund, as we move forward with LSOC,

 11 would help create a stronger system.

 12 MR. BARNETT: Great, thank you. I want

 13 to get through the list, so that's LSOC gaps. Who

 14 had excess held at DCO?

 15 MS. BREGASI: That was me. So I think

 16 that was in the middle between LSOC improvements

 17 and full segregation. So just getting back to

 18 excess -- to LSOC improvements, the only question

 19 I wanted to ask is how -- I'm still a little bit

 20 confused, now that we understand LSOC without

 21 excess, and excess is not required to be posted to

 22 the DCO. So as long as it's not required, let's
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 1 just assume that it's not done.

 2 If it's not done, it seems the rule is

 3 being read to only require position reporting to

 4 the DCO and not margin reporting. If that's the

 5 case, how does a DCO know which client defaulted

 6 on the day that the FCM defaults? Can anybody

 7 answer that question?

 8 MR. WASSERMAN: I think the answer is

 9 that one would look at the positions, because

 10 essentially, the positions will imply a variation,

 11 and so one would apply that variation to the

 12 collateral associated with those positions.

 13 MS. BREGASI: But, Bob, you're assuming

 14 that what the FCM reported yesterday was the

 15 client's position, was also what the client posted

 16 to the FCM for margin. If a client did not post

 17 them, they have up to three days before they

 18 really get hit, so if that client didn't post,

 19 then the DCO doesn't know that. I still don't get

 20 how the DCO is going to know who the defaulting

 21 client is.

 22 MR. WASSERMAN: The question is, what
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 1 can the DCO use?

 2 MS. BREGASI: Yes.

 3 MR. WASSERMAN: What collateral is

 4 available to the DCO to use?

 5 MS. BREGASI: Yes.

 6 MR. WASSERMAN: And the answer to that

 7 is, any collateral that is the FCM's, and to the

 8 extent for each of those sets of positions, they

 9 can use the collateral associated with that, those

 10 positions.

 11 MS. BREGASI: Right. But the problem

 12 is, they still need to know who the defaulting

 13 customer is. Because the whole point of LSOC is

 14 that they cannot use the collateral that the

 15 defaulting -- they cannot use the collateral the

 16 non defaulting customer for a defaulting customer.

 17 But how do you know who the defaulting customer

 18 is?

 19 MS. TAYLOR: We agree with that problem.

 20 MR. FOLEY: I thought the rules

 21 contemplated that the defaulting clearing member

 22 is obligated to tell the DCO.
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 1 MS. BREGASI: Well, that's the problem.

 2 So the FCM is defaulting, and we have to rely on

 3 them to tell the DCO who defaulted?

 4 MR. FOLEY: Well, that was the point

 5 made some time ago, but --

 6 MS. BREGASI: Right. But when we

 7 thought the requirement was to report margin, we

 8 knew that there might be an issue where they might

 9 not be reporting it correctly, but at least they

 10 had an obligation to report it. Now that they

 11 don't even have the obligation to report margin,

 12 we're even two steps back --

 13 MR. FOLEY: It seems to me, if all that

 14 is asked of the DCO is 100 percent of their

 15 required margin --

 16 MS. TAYLOR: But you don't know from the

 17 client --

 18 MS. BREGASI: But you don't know that

 19 they posted it.

 20 MR. FOLEY: No, but it's either from the

 21 clients or it's from the clearing member's excess.

 22 MS. BREGASI: But that's a problem,
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 1 because the defaulting client, if what they have

 2 in there is some of the FCM's money, they're still

 3 a defaulting client, and the DCO doesn't know

 4 that.

 5 MS. TAYLOR: And the -- this has been a

 6 complication that we identified with the way that

 7 LSOC works at the time of a default right from the

 8 very beginning. It is very difficult to know what

 9 client has defaulted, there's a process built into

 10 the rules for the FCM to pass more information,

 11 but the FCM is potentially in disarray, the FCM

 12 is, you know, going out of business. And what we

 13 have determined would end up being the likely

 14 default assumption for a clearinghouse would be

 15 that, if you were a client who, when we unwound

 16 the netting of the variation margin on that day

 17 and looked at all the clients who were making

 18 money, coincidentally making money that day, they

 19 would be absolutely not defaulting clients,

 20 because they had their margin on deposit, plus

 21 profits. The clients who had their margin on

 22 deposit from the prior cycle and had losses would
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 1 all potentially be defaulting clients, even --

 2 MS. BREGASI: Even though they might

 3 have excess to the --

 4 MS. TAYLOR: Though they might have the

 5 excess -- at the FCM, and there's not a good way

 6 for the DCO to know it.

 7 MR. WASSERMAN: To the extent of those

 8 losses. And so, in other words, you've got three

 9 clients, each of whom has 100, one gains ten, he's

 10 a gainer, one loses ten, he's entitled to 90, the

 11 other loses 375, I think we've found our default.

 12 MS. BREGASI: So let me give you an

 13 example. You have a client --

 14 MS. TAYLOR: You might have that money

 15 in an account with an FCM --

 16 MS. BREGASI: That they're required

 17 well, their required initial margin is 100, so the

 18 FCM tells the DCO 100 is what their positions are.

 19 Well, they tell them positions, they know 100 is

 20 the requirement. But, in fact, that client has

 21 only posted 70 with the FCM. And then that

 22 client, let's say, has whether a loss or a gain,
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 1 it doesn't matter, but the gain is smaller than

 2 the short fall that they had with the FCM, that

 3 should be a defaulting client. But the DCO isn't

 4 going to know that.

 5 MR. BARNETT: Can we hold for a second?

 6 I want -- this LSOC is (laughter) everybody knows

 7 this exists, everybody's talking to each other,

 8 can we talk about the other alternatives, and you

 9 can all fight each other then?

 10 MS. BREGASI: I can move to my other

 11 alternative.

 12 MR. BARNETT: All right.

 13 MS. BREGASI: So, moving on from LSOC;

 14 having all excess held at the DCO, so that's

 15 between LSOC improvements and full physical

 16 segregation, and the point would be that, if you

 17 have all of the client's money held at the DCO,

 18 then you reduce, if not take away, I think, even

 19 though some people might disagree, fraud risk and

 20 investment risk. And in terms of, well, it's

 21 understandable that you're taking some of the

 22 income away from the FCM, one solution, I think
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 1 CME came up with something like this a few weeks

 2 ago, one solution would be to have the DCO invest

 3 the money, maybe in agreement with the FCM as to

 4 what those investments would be, and then share

 5 the income or pass all the income to the FCM. So

 6 that's one thought. Moving on to the third

 7 thought, which is full physical segregation, if

 8 you can take the -- leaving aside Bankruptcy Code

 9 changes, which we all understand would be the

 10 best, but are very hard to do, going with

 11 something that the CFTC can do by rule. They

 12 could require, on top of LSOC as it is today, they

 13 could require that all FCMs keep customer money in

 14 a Tri-Party account or four party account even

 15 better, so that there is no issue with the FCM

 16 having to come up with initial margin to post to

 17 the DCO. I would think that, if you combine the

 18 four party account type with LSOC, LSOC is taking

 19 care of fellow customer risk, the four party

 20 account is taking care of investment risk and

 21 fraud risk, so that gets you pretty much, pretty

 22 close to full physical seg, without any changes to
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 1 the Bankruptcy Code.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Who's next on the list,

 3 David? No. John?

 4 MR. RICHARDSON: This is Bob Richardson.

 5 I'd like to talk about insurance a little bit

 6 more.

 7 MR. BARNETT: Okay.

 8 MR. RICHARDSON: I mean, I hear all

 9 this, and I'm not, I don't have a commodities

 10 background, I have a SIPC background, and I've

 11 done it for 40 years, and somebody is going to

 12 steal the money some way. I mean, I hear all of

 13 these protections that are built in, all the

 14 segregation, all these other things, somebody's

 15 going to figure out how to steal the money,

 16 they've been doing it for forever. So I'm a

 17 proponent, and it's a long history of why

 18 commodities didn't get rolled into SIPC when it

 19 was legislated in 1970, but it seems to cry out

 20 now, with the two major cases that we've seen, for

 21 some type, and I'm going to bore down a little bit

 22 more on what those types are, of insurance
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 1 program. And all of these efforts to protect have

 2 failed, and some customer loses the money

 3 typically because somebody steals it.

 4 Commissioner Chilton put out today a proposal, I

 5 don't know if it was just a little while ago, so

 6 I don't know how many people have seen it

 7 proposing an insurance fund, laying out some very

 8 general background. His proposal provides for an

 9 entity just very similar to a SIPC entity. People

 10 can debate the need for having something like

 11 that. But I do think that there needs to be some

 12 kind of protection for customers that would be

 13 beyond the scope of the regulatory changes and the

 14 other changes that have been discussed here. And

 15 it would be some form of insurance. There are a

 16 lot of variations there, either a fund like SIPC

 17 with assessments on the FCMs, or a combination of

 18 a relatively small fund, and private insurance to

 19 be layered on top of that. I appreciate the

 20 expense associated with, you know, setting up a

 21 program and funding a program, but it seems to me

 22 that there is some needed today, in light of MF
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 1 Global and Peregrine to have some type of

 2 protections in the event there's a failure, in the

 3 event there's a theft of funds. And so, I mean, I

 4 can talk about some ideas, just to touch on some

 5 in terms of the structure, you could have

 6 something rolled into SIPC. I don't want people

 7 sitting around waiting for a commodities broker to

 8 fail, there are not that many that have failed,

 9 but clearly, if that happens, you can have the

 10 stand alone, you can have some hybrid of that, you

 11 can have funding directly assessments against the

 12 FCMs, you can have after the fact. In some

 13 countries outside the U.S. And I will note that

 14 the U.S. is just about, if not the only system

 15 that provides insurance. It doesn't cover

 16 commodities, it only covers securities, so we're

 17 very much behind in terms of protections for the

 18 commodities industry. But you can have a very

 19 modest administration, you can have a very modest

 20 fund, and then you can supplement that with

 21 private insurance. So there are a lot of

 22 variations of it, but I did want to at least make
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 1 a pitch for what happens if, you know, all of

 2 these protections don't work and we do see another

 3 failure. And I don't think this industry is

 4 really in a position right now to probably suffer

 5 through another one. And you never know, because

 6 I've been the trustee in SIPC cases, I've worked

 7 at SIPC, I've seen this. You don't know what's

 8 going to happen until 24 hours before you get that

 9 call and say we need a trustee.

 10 So I'm just a proponent of it, I don't

 11 know if I can bore down any more details --

 12 MR. ROE: If I can just.

 13 MR. RICHARDSON: But I did want to tee

 14 that issue up a little bit.

 15 MR. ROE: So when you mentioned you said

 16 you appreciate the expense, do you have any ideas,

 17 are there studies --

 18 MR. RICHARDSON: Well, that depends.

 19 Commissioner Chilton suggested in this proposal

 20 that came out today something not to exceed the 30

 21 or so employees at SIPC. I think an argument

 22 could be made that it could be a lot fewer
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 1 employees. And I haven't run this by anybody at

 2 the CFTC, but the idea that maybe, if you're not

 3 going to roll it into SIPC and have two separate

 4 funds, you know, just have -- but you have all the

 5 administrative personnel already in place at SIPC.

 6 And it seems to me that an argument could be made

 7 that it doesn't justify creating a duplicate

 8 system. Maybe you could have a hybrid where you

 9 have very few commodities employees in this fund,

 10 and you could tap into the SIPC employees.

 11 They're not all that busy all the time. Now,

 12 granted, they have three big cases right now

 13 (laughter) that they're dealing with, but that is

 14 some way that you can kind of reduce the

 15 administrative expenses and still have a separate

 16 entity. So the answer to your question, no, I

 17 haven't done any study, I think having a full

 18 blown -- despite what Commissioner Chilton said in

 19 his proposal, and I know it was only a proposal --

 20 I think having a full 30 to 40 employees running

 21 an insurance fund for the commodities industry is

 22 probably not justified.
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 1 MR. ROE: If I can just jump in there.

 2 MR. BARNETT: John, go ahead.

 3 MR. ROE: We've looked at this, we've

 4 studied this a little bit in our proposal to the

 5 Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition and

 6 Forestry, and, first, I want to absolutely agree

 7 that, no matter what method of segregation that we

 8 use, and we certainly agree we should try a pilot

 9 program, we should give customers more options

 10 just in terms of segregation. But all we're

 11 really doing is shifting around where that

 12 insolvency risk goes, we're just kind of shuffling

 13 a little bit over to a different, maybe to a

 14 custodian, or shuffling a little bit over to a

 15 utility, maybe we're creating more concentration

 16 risk. Really, we haven't addressed what the real

 17 problem is here; at some point, these things do

 18 blow up, someone is going to either steal it or

 19 someone's going to use it to prop up their firm,

 20 there have been two very recent examples of that.

 21 So insurance is the simplest form of

 22 addressing this. Congress wants this, it actually
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 1 can be done very quickly through Congress. It

 2 will take an act of Congress, but surprisingly,

 3 this is going to be a fairly easy one. We can run

 4 that right up the middle, it will get support from

 5 both sides of the aisle. And in terms of a

 6 structure, we've looked at something that would be

 7 more like a liquidity facility. The problem in

 8 applying SIPC protections to commodity customers

 9 is they're fundamentally different than holders of

 10 securities. Holders of securities, for the most

 11 part, especially if you're talking about retail

 12 customers or investors, they want their securities

 13 back. Commodity customers are, it's a very broad

 14 term that can include all sorts of institutions,

 15 individuals that have different needs, but

 16 fundamentally, they're different, they require a

 17 lot speedier approach than SIPC. And we think

 18 that all sorts of terrible things happen in

 19 bankruptcy, and the best way to protect customers

 20 is to get them the heck out of bankruptcy. And

 21 that's by using a fund to port customers

 22 immediately to new brokerages, have that fund plug
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 1 the short fall, and then have that fund remove the

 2 moral hazard that an insurance mechanism like SIPC

 3 could actually be inserting into the system by

 4 going after recoveries and stepping into the shoes

 5 of customers by taking their claims in bankruptcy.

 6 This way, you have the -- there's a punitive

 7 aspect to it, these companies have to pay back

 8 this fund for any recoveries that it's paid out.

 9 And that may be another way to keep the fund

 10 whole. So I think that, I totally agree that

 11 we've got to look at insurance, it's actually the

 12 quickest thing to do. It's fairly simple,

 13 straightforward, easy, you have it through your

 14 bank account, you have it for your stock account,

 15 why don't you have it for your commodity account?

 16 And I think we can actually sit down in

 17 a room across a table and maybe it will be like

 18 LSOC and take us 16 months to do that, but we have

 19 to do that. We have the will in Congress to do

 20 it, people want it to happen, so I think it's time

 21 that we sit down as an industry and do it.

 22 MR. RICHARDSON: If I can just comment
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 1 on one thing. I was a trustee in a case that was

 2 filed on November 19, 1999. Everybody remembers

 3 2000, the world was going to melt down, we sold

 4 and moved every account before January 1, 2000.

 5 So there is a mechanism, I don't know if you were

 6 saying there wasn't, or are commenting on that,

 7 but you can -- SIPC advanced that money and got

 8 those accounts out the door to other brokers. I

 9 sold all those accounts, made a little bit of

 10 money from the estate, new brokers picked them up,

 11 and January 1, 2000, they were trading in their

 12 accounts.

 13 MR. ROE: Right. No, there is, and

 14 certainly SIPC has that mechanism. But I think

 15 the commodities industry is a different animal, I

 16 think it's going to need its own fund. That fund

 17 doesn't have to have 100 employees, I looked at

 18 Commissioner Chilton's proposal, he's absolutely

 19 right about that. And he also mentioned capping

 20 the fund, absolutely. I think, if you can insure

 21 $4.3 trillion in the FDIC system with a reserve

 22 requirement -- what is it now, about.13 percent,
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 1 severely underfunded -- we can probably do the

 2 same thing here; cap a fund. And, who knows, if

 3 everybody behaves, in ten years, we won't have to

 4 charge anybody anything. Just, if I could, I

 5 didn't mean to put insurance and bankruptcy reform

 6 in the same box, there, but moving on, I think we

 7 are going to have to roll up our sleeves and get

 8 deep into the Bankruptcy Code. All sorts of

 9 terrible things happen in bankruptcy, and we've

 10 got to address some of them, because some of that

 11 code is so old, it doesn't really work in the

 12 modern era. Specifically, one of the things that

 13 we have to look at, which could be very painful,

 14 perhaps even for some people sitting around this

 15 table, is ring fencing FCMs and Broker Dealers

 16 into separate corporate entities.

 17 That is something that, if you look at

 18 Refco and you say, well, that was a good

 19 bankruptcy; well, one of the reasons why is

 20 because their Broker Dealer and FCM were in

 21 separate corporate entities underneath their

 22 holding company structure. And if we look at that
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 1 and say, well, in that instance, the FCM was

 2 supported very easily, heck, even the stock owners

 3 got about $11, I think, or $12 back per share.

 4 When have you ever heard of that in bankruptcy?

 5 And that's only about a 50 or 60 percent loss from

 6 the IPO. I'll take that any day of the week and

 7 twice on Sunday for MF Global stock. So I think

 8 that we have to talk about that, I think we have

 9 to look at what that could look like. I think

 10 that you'll see a lot of Broker Dealers raise a

 11 huge cry and talk about how expensive that's going

 12 to be, when it's not really going to be all that

 13 expensive, and it's not going to create capital

 14 inefficiencies and all those terrible things. I

 15 think we have to talk about safe harbor and the

 16 automatic application of it -- excuse me, the

 17 application of it in instances of fraudulent

 18 conveyance, not actual fraud, and talk about how

 19 we can maybe remove some of that from the Code. I

 20 think we have to talk about fees. We have two

 21 trustees in the MF Global case, a Chapter 11 and a

 22 SIPC trustee, and through April -- I haven't
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 1 gotten their fee applications yet for past April,

 2 but through April, charged $47 million, $300 per

 3 hour for paralegals, and $450 an hour for

 4 attorneys with a year of experience past bar. No

 5 client in the private sector would ever pay these

 6 fees, so there's got to be some kind of market

 7 mechanism in bankruptcy that says, hey, just

 8 because that's the way it is, and that's just what

 9 it is, go ahead and pay it, is the way bankruptcy

 10 court seems to work. That's not the way it should

 11 work. So, again, I think we've got to roll up our

 12 sleeves, we've got to get down deep into the

 13 Bankruptcy Code, it's going to go through a couple

 14 of committees on the Hill, it's going to raise the

 15 ire of a bunch of lobbyists, it's going to be a

 16 nasty fight that takes three years, but it's got

 17 to be done.

 18 And circling back to the insurance point

 19 of this, the bankruptcy part will take a very long

 20 time, it's going to be very complicated, it's

 21 going to be like LSOC, they're going to be talking

 22 about it all day, all week, and all month and all
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 1 year. Insurance, we can get done next week, we

 2 really can. If we can get a proposal that 80

 3 percent of the industry agrees with, exchanges

 4 will come along. If the National Grain and Feed

 5 Association will come along, if a few other

 6 constituents will come along, we can get that into

 7 bill form and we can get it done in Congress

 8 quick. I'm talking by the lame duck session. So

 9 I really want to, must reiterate again, we're

 10 focused on insurance, but we have lots of other

 11 reforms we'd like to see done.

 12 MR. WASSERMAN: If I could just make one

 13 observation on bankruptcy. My experience is that

 14 it's less of a structural issue and more of a

 15 money issue. If the money is there in seg, then

 16 frequently, you can almost certainly, universally

 17 in my experience, you can find a willing and able

 18 transferee, one or more, and it happens. If the

 19 money isn't there, things go a lot worse. In

 20 Refco it was all there, in Lehman, in Lehman,

 21 there's a whole lot of complicated proceeding, but

 22 as for the exchange traded commodity customers,
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 1 they were transferred over the weekend. So --

 2 MR. ROE: Except some of it wasn't

 3 there. JP Morgan held on to a bunch of it, he was

 4 fined $20 million for that.

 5 MR. WASSERMAN: And the customers,

 6 though, ultimately, and, yes, there was some

 7 hiccups, but the fact of the matter is, they all

 8 got transferred over to Barclays, and I'm sure the

 9 MF Global customers would rather be in their shoes

 10 than otherwise. But it's a matter of "is the

 11 money there?". And, obviously, if you have an

 12 insurance scheme, it helps with the money is

 13 there. But, really, what it comes down to is,

 14 you're right, transfer is what we're trying to get

 15 at, and a lot of that depends upon where's the

 16 money.

 17 MR. PERKINS: And, Bob, the reason why

 18 the money isn't there -- I mean, the biggest

 19 threat in my mind is malfeasance and fraud, and I

 20 think we get back to the earlier panel around

 21 transparency and accurate books and records, and

 22 validation and audit. We could come up with the
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 1 best model in the world, but if people don't

 2 believe in it and violate rules, I think we get

 3 back to square one. So, again, our focus is on

 4 transparency at our shop.

 5 MR. BARNETT: Any alternatives we

 6 haven't discussed?

 7 MR. YERES: Yes.

 8 MR. BARNETT: Go.

 9 MR. YERES: David Yeres, as I said

 10 earlier, my focus has really been that of the swap

 11 market participant who, when clearing, becomes

 12 required, will forfeit the level of protection

 13 they now have utilizing a third party custodial

 14 arrangements and be put into a system which

 15 perhaps is enhanced significantly by LSOC, but is

 16 still not as secure as the third party custodial

 17 arrangements they now have, either from an

 18 operational point of view or from a bankruptcy

 19 point of view. As you know, they have bankruptcy

 20 protections, they have a safe harbor from the

 21 automatic stay with respect to their over the

 22 counter transactions. They don't get a safe
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 1 harbor with respect to the automatic stay in

 2 respect to the relationship with the FCM, so

 3 they're at risk of being in a more perilous

 4 position. But, nevertheless, I think it's worth

 5 mentioning now that Commissioner Chilton has made

 6 a proposal for insurance which others have talked

 7 about here, and I think it's to be commended.

 8 It's a serious proposal, it does certainly require

 9 serious consideration. If it is adopted, I would

 10 suggest it should pick up swaps, as well as

 11 futures. But even if that were to occur, because

 12 of the caps, and the fact that the swaps market is

 13 a large institutional market, it should not be in

 14 lieu of protections that would otherwise be of

 15 assistance to swap market participants. In that

 16 regard, my focus has been on trying to identify

 17 ways in which customers can feel comfortable, that

 18 whatever they contribute as collateral for their

 19 swaps, will be applied as collateral for their

 20 swaps. And to do that, the simplest approach is

 21 to provide that the customer has some relationship

 22 with the DCO, rather than the funds passing
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 1 necessarily through the FCM. It would be a

 2 possible choice. And I say just a choice, one

 3 option that a customer might take to, in one way

 4 or another, and I'll mention two of them; have a

 5 more direct relationship, i.e., its money is

 6 available only to support its positions, as

 7 opposed to support the positions of others, or

 8 make up for malfeasance or fraud. And, quite

 9 frankly, as we move to swaps, just to take a

 10 moment to digress, this Commission and the

 11 industry will take on some multiple, perhaps it's

 12 two times, perhaps it's 10 or 20 times, the amount

 13 of collateral that is has operated with before.

 14 It will take on a marketplace that has durations,

 15 according to your recent publication, out to 50

 16 years. And I could only imagine the volatility if

 17 the interest rate curve should steepen. So, the

 18 amounts of money that will pass through the system

 19 are a great multiple of what they are now,

 20 especially, again, by the swap customers. With

 21 that in mind, my suggests are two to be

 22 considered. One we've talked about before, the
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 1 guaranteed clearing participant. I know Bob's

 2 quite familiar with that approach. And the

 3 essence of that approach is that, rather than the

 4 customer's collateral, the swap customer's

 5 collateral passing through the FCM, that swap

 6 customer becomes a guaranteed clearing participant

 7 that has a direct relationship with the clearing

 8 organization. It has an account with the clearing

 9 organization called a settlement account that

 10 looks very much and operates very much the same

 11 way as any other clearing member's account does.

 12 The funds that pass through that account are never

 13 received or acquired by the FCM. Per the

 14 definition of the Bankruptcy Code, they cannot be

 15 customer property, and therefore, they are not in

 16 the estate, hence, they're only available to pay

 17 down the obligations of that customer for that

 18 customer's positions. They shouldn't very much

 19 imperil the FCM because, as I understand it, the

 20 only reason the FCM takes custody of these funds

 21 in the normal event is to satisfy the obligations

 22 through this customer's position. They don't take
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 1 custody of them for investment purposes or to use

 2 them in their business, so the funds would serve

 3 the same purpose they're now serving, secure the

 4 customer's position through the marketplace of the

 5 DCO. The system would be simpler, it would be less

 6 prone to risk of any FCM default and shortfall,

 7 and for the DCO to make up the funds or for the

 8 market itself to suffer a loss. So that's one

 9 approach, and we've talked about that before, but

 10 there's a simpler approach potentially, and it's a

 11 variant of what Charley raised for State Street;

 12 that is, Interp 10. Interp 10, per your LSOC

 13 relief, is now available to swaps. But as Interp

 14 10 is now written, it is an agreement between the

 15 customer and the FCM. And the protection the

 16 system gets is the FCM has unfettered drawing

 17 rights on that account. And people have expressed

 18 concerns that perhaps the custodians may not abide

 19 by their agreement. Interp 10 could be improved

 20 upon by having the DCO be the drawing agent on

 21 that account. The account could be set up much

 22 the same way, the custodians could conceivably be
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 1 limited to those with whom the DCO has a

 2 relationship, or alternatively, is satisfied, has

 3 confidence in. And the DCO as drawing agent,

 4 then, would be able to draw down the funds in

 5 almost all instances. There could be instances in

 6 which, for example, the FCM has residual drawing

 7 rights.

 8 But we would try to set up that account,

 9 structure that account in such a way that, A, if

 10 at all possible, and I think it is possible, the

 11 funds in that account never became customer

 12 property of the FCM unless and until the FCM drew

 13 on them. And, number two, harder question is

 14 trying to avoid the funds in that account being

 15 subject to the automatic stay in the event of an

 16 FCM bankruptcy, because if the FCM has a lien, a

 17 security interest on those funds, the likelihood

 18 would be that the funds would be subject to a

 19 stay. Unlike funds that are customer property,

 20 which are, by the Bankruptcy Code, excluded from

 21 the stay. We would have to deal with that issue,

 22 and I think that's an issue that could be dealt
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 1 with most easily, although legislation is never

 2 easy, most cleanly usually through legislation so

 3 that the customer got the same protection in the

 4 cleared market that it now has in the over the

 5 counter market, where, as you know, there is an

 6 exception, a safe harbor from the automatic stay,

 7 or alternatively, through structural devices.

 8 But either way, we're coming up to a

 9 date in the fall or the winter when financial

 10 institutions and others will be forced into a

 11 clearing environment which is, I think it can't be

 12 said to be quite as secure as the one they're

 13 presently in. And I think that should be avoided

 14 by the Commission wherever possible, especially in

 15 light of the fact as you're taking on a new

 16 marketplace, a marketplace as hard as you may have

 17 worked on this, is new to the Commission staff.

 18 The Commission is an organization with finite

 19 resources, as you well know, it has a very hard

 20 time in actually putting people on the ground

 21 doing auditing, monitoring behavior, so structural

 22 solutions, I think, should generally be favored in
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 1 that environment. And that's what I'm proposing.

 2 MR. BARNETT: Any other reactions to

 3 David's statement?

 4 MR. LUKKEN: Just a quick question,

 5 David. The first option you talked about,

 6 becoming a direct clearing -- I don't know what

 7 you would call that, clearing members -- are they

 8 contributing to the guarantee fund, or would they

 9 be similarly situated as a clearing member itself,

 10 or --

 11 MR. YERES: They would be a special

 12 class of clearing member.

 13 MR. LUKKEN: But not --

 14 MR. YERES: And they would not

 15 contribute to the guarantee fund. Rather, they

 16 would be guaranteed by a guaranteeing clearing

 17 broker, and there would have to be proper

 18 financial arrangements in place if, if clearing

 19 brokers offered the service. So there's a market

 20 issue, here.

 21 MR. LUKKEN: Right.

 22 MR. YERES: Will it be offered. But one
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 1 thing I would suggest in coming towards November

 2 or December, here, I think it's kind of imperative

 3 that the Commission make clear, at least, that it

 4 is not prohibiting or otherwise making unlawful

 5 these kinds of arrangements. Whether it be the

 6 guaranteed clearing participant or some variant of

 7 the modified Interp 10.

 8 Because, right now, I think, if you talk

 9 to many clearing brokers, they would say those

 10 things are now unlawful under the present

 11 Commission structure, and they can't be offered.

 12 And we've heard that from some clearing firms who

 13 would say we would offer if it were lawful. But

 14 it isn't. And I think the Commission is in an

 15 awkward position if it is seen as stopping the

 16 offering of that kind of service.

 17 MR. PERKINS: A quick question on the

 18 GCP model. I appreciate what you're doing, we all

 19 want the best segregation possible in accordance

 20 with the law. Upon the insolvency of a guaranteed

 21 clearing participant and the FCM essentially takes

 22 control over the collateral; does that defaulted
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 1 entity and the collateral associated with it

 2 become part of the customer account, thus subject

 3 to 766(h)? Does it spring into -- for those who

 4 couldn't opt into the GCP, are they now subjected

 5 to share in any kind of losses upon the insolvency

 6 of the GCP?

 7 MR. YERES: Well, in the first instance,

 8 the draw would be by the DCO. The purpose of the

 9 FCM taking control would only be, I assume, to

 10 satisfy obligations of the GCP in respect to the

 11 GCP's own positions at the DCO. Or, principally,

 12 let's start with that. Those funds would already

 13 be at the DCO, so there's no reason for the FCM to

 14 take control of those assets except to the extent

 15 there are other debts to the FCM, for example,

 16 fees, penalties, et cetera. That could be

 17 arranged through a separate account, apart and

 18 away from the GCP, so there would never be a need

 19 for the FCM to take control of that account in the

 20 main. Since, again, the purpose of those funds is

 21 to guarantee the obligation to the DCO, and the

 22 DCO has drawing agent rights, there's very limited
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 1 situation in which the FCM should have any

 2 interest or right to take residual funds.

 3 MR. BARNETT: Okay.

 4 MS. TAYLOR: I actually think that Chris

 5 has a very good question there that we would have

 6 to make sure worked, because if the -- your

 7 assumption is that the client who had the GCP

 8 account defaulted.

 9 MR. PERKINS: Yeah, that's right,

 10 exactly.

 11 MS. TAYLOR: So, at that point in time,

 12 the clearinghouse would be looking to you to make

 13 good on that obligation --

 14 MR. PERKINS: Yeah.

 15 MS. TAYLOR: And I think the presumption

 16 would be that then, because you were making good

 17 on the short fall and you were responsible for

 18 liquidating the positions, and all of that, that

 19 you probably would need to have access to that

 20 collateral. So --

 21 MR. YERES: If I can answer that for a

 22 moment. I think it's absolutely necessary for the
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 1 clearing firm that is the guarantor to have

 2 control over the positions it will guarantee, and

 3 to have control over the positions in the event of

 4 default. That's separate from the funds. The

 5 funds are only going to be used to satisfy the DCO

 6 upon the FCM's liquidation in the first instance,

 7 right? Where's the money going first? It's going

 8 to satisfy you with the DCO.

 9 MR. WASSERMAN: Actually, another way of

 10 looking at it is, if Chris, as the guarantor, has

 11 to make good on the guarantee, your rules, Kim,

 12 could then provide that upon his making good on

 13 the guarantee, he would then be entitled to

 14 reimbursement subordinate to you --

 15 MR. YERES: Yeah.

 16 MR. WASSERMAN: From those funds.

 17 MR. YERES: Precisely.

 18 MS. TAYLOR: I'm not saying there aren't

 19 ways to solve the problem, but I am, I am

 20 suggesting that Chris has a good point.

 21 MR. YERES: And my point is, we'd never

 22 suggest, or I would never suggest that the FCM
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 1 wouldn't have control, since it's the guarantor to

 2 liquidate the positions, would also have the

 3 benefit of the fact that if it had any obligation

 4 with respect to the DCO, with respect to those

 5 positions, the funds would already be available to

 6 the DCO. There would be no question of that. The

 7 DCO is the drawing agent, would have the funds

 8 available. To the extent there were excess funds,

 9 then there's the possibility, as Bob pointed out,

 10 DCO rules determining that it's the allocation of

 11 those funds is among its members.

 12 MR. BARNETT: Okay.

 13 MR. DAVIS: David, we've just gone

 14 through several months of negotiating the

 15 liquidation provision in the FIA addendum, and my

 16 understanding is one of the first things that the

 17 FCM might want to do is pay someone to put on a

 18 hedging transaction, assuming that required a lot

 19 of money. Are you saying, basically, to

 20 neutralize the risk in the portfolio, are you

 21 saying that the FCM would have access to the funds

 22 in that defaulting customer's account in order to
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 1 put that hedging position on, or not?

 2 MR. YERES: With the same DCO?

 3 MR. DAVIS: It might be with the DCO, it

 4 might be over the counter with another firm.

 5 MR. YERES: I think the answer to that

 6 is, the genius of segregating and isolating the

 7 funds is the customer is protected, the funds are

 8 only available to support its position at the

 9 relevant DCO. And the flip side of that is,

 10 they're not available to support positions outside

 11 that DCO. That is correct, they're dedicated to

 12 that purpose. That --

 13 MR. BARNETT: All right. I think we're

 14 going to call it. So the conversation on all of

 15 these structures will continue, people will keep

 16 working it out, the transcript will be worth

 17 acquiring when it comes out. So it is valuable in

 18 that sense, that people know what's going on, and

 19 we hear the state of things, and people can reach

 20 out to each other. Thank you very much for your

 21 participation on this panel. Thanks very much.

 22 (Whereupon, at 17:06 p.m., the
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 1 PROCEEDINGS were adjourned.)

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 1 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC

 2 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

 3

 4 I, Irene Gray, notary public in and for the

 5 District of Columbia, do hereby certify that the

 6 forgoing PROCEEDING was duly recorded and

 7 thereafter reduced to print under my direction;

 8 that the witnesses were sworn to tell the truth

 9 under penalty of perjury; that said transcript is

 10 a true record of the testimony given by witnesses;

 11 that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor

 12 employed by any of the parties to the action in

 13 which this proceeding was called; and,

 14 furthermore, that I am not a relative or employee

 15 of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties

 16 hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in

 17 the outcome of this action.

 18

 19 (Signature and Seal on File)

 20 -----------------------------------

 21 Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia

 22 My Commission Expires: April 30, 2016