CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcripts of Audio Files Attached as Exhibit A* 

Transcript 

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*Transcripts prepared by CFTC staff 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 128190.wav 

Description: Call from Gerben Gooijers to Ferhad Mekic 

Date: 3/5/2007 

Parties: Ferhad Mekic; Gerben Gooijers 

Mekic: Hello, Ferhad speaking 

Gooijers: Gerben 

Mekic: Hey Gerben, how's it going? 

Gooijers: Hey Ferhad. Yeah. Not bad. How's it going with you? 

Mekic: Oh, it's alright. 

Gooijers: Okay. 

Mekic: Not too busy today, but I've got a bunch of stuff going on. 

Gooijers: Yeah, same here. 

Mekic: How's, urn. You're doing the spread features over there? 

Gooijers: Yeah, and the EPF. 

Mekic: Oh, okay. Are they working? 

Pg2 ofl32 

Gooijers: Yeah, yeah. Both of them are working pretty well. I think we're on 

100,000 today. 

Mekic: Wow, that's good volatility. 

Gooijers: I was calling about theTAS's. 

Mekic: Yeah. 

Gooijers: Cause I got an e-mail from Mark saying that we aren't first anymore. 

Mekic: Uh, yeah. 

Gooijers: Urn, so I want to look into, yeah, increasing the frequency of sending 

orders. 

Mekic: Yeah. 

Gooijers: But what has beeri happening lately? How many of our orders have gotten 

in and are we uh just always late or whatever? 

Mekic: We (unintelligible) hammer seven, and then uh, four orders get in, and then 

over the last week we haven't been first once. 

Gooijers: Okay. But, okay, it's good to know that still a number of orders get in, so 

it's really increasing the frequency that will, uh, that should do the trick. 
( 

CFTC v. Qptiver US, LLC, et al. Pg3 of132 

Transcript of 128190.wav 

Description: Call from Getben Gooijers to Ferhad Meldc 

Date: 3/5/2007 · 

Parties: Ferhad Mekic; Gerben Gooijers 

Mekic: Yeah, I think that's what other people are doing. 

Gooijers: Yeah. 

Mekic: And, uh, yeah, so ...:. but first it was like we were in all the time~ then it was 

like 90%, 80%, then quickly down to 0 times, number oftimes, that we 

were flrst 

Gooijers: 

Meldc: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

. Gootjers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Meldc: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Yeah, it was to be exJK:cted I think. 

Yeah, exactly. If they just not use excel. (laughter). 

Yeah. 

They'd improve very quickly. 

Yeah . 

So, um, but we've done recently well in those anyway. 

OkayIn theTAS's. And, uh, we're getting better at hedging them off. 

Okay, good. Sounds good. 

Yeah. 

. Yah, I tried to put a close here, so I uh -

Okay. 

I have to do some other stuff now, but I'll look into uh, improving the 

Hammer tool tomorrow so that we can uh, do this with a finer frequency~ 

so that should give us a better chance of being up front again. 

REDACTED 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC. et al. 

Transcript of 128190.wav 

Description: CaU frotn Gerben Oooijers to Ferhad Mckie 

Date: 3/5/2007 

Parties: Ferhad Mekic; Gerben Gooijers 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooljers: 

Mekic: 

Goofjers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooljers: 

Meldc: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

REDACTED 

Mekic: 

. Gooijers: 

Alright, if you want to speak after the close, give me a ring. 

Uh, yeah . 

Mekic: I'll tell you what's going on here. 

Pg4ofl32 

Gooijers: Urn, yeah not today because I have to hurry today but I'll talk to you 

tomorrow. 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Meldc: 

Gooijers: 

Mekic: 

Gooijers: 

Ok. Sounds good. 

Ok. 

Good luck and uh. 

Yeah, you too. And I'll talk to you tomorrow. 

uhbye. 

ok. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 128190.wav 

Description: Call from Gerben Gooijers to Ferhad Mekic 

Date: 3/5/2007 

Parties: Ferhad Mekic; Gerben Gooijers 

END 

Pg 5 ofl32 
.· -~ 

CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Allison Optiver, this is Allison. 

van der Kruk Yes, hello. This is Edwin speaking from Amsterdam. 

Allison Hi. 

van der Kruk Hi, how are you doing? 

Allison Good. 

van der Kruk Ah, can I speak to Chris please? 

Allison To, sorry, Chris Dowson? 

van der Kruk To Chris, yes. 

Allison Sure, just a minute please. 

van der Kruk Ok, thank you. Bye. (On hold). 

van der Kruk (Dutch). Hello? (Dutch). (On hold). 

van der Kruk Hello? (Phone Ringing) 

Dowson Yup? 

van der Kruk Hi Chris, how are you doing? 

Dowson I'm alright, thanks~ How are you doing? 

van der Kruk Yeah, fine, fine. It's hard work, hard work these days. 

Dowson Yeah, you're very busy? 

van der Kruk Yeah. We've had some two men these days last week. 

Dowson Yeah, making some cash? 

Pg 6 ofl32 

van der Kruk Yeah, we made two million on Thursday, day trading eh day trading. 

Dowson 

With positions 2.2 I think. And Friday we made 1.2 million. Today we 

made probably 400. Somewhere between 4-500. Day trading. 

Yeah, I got an email from Matt that said he made half a million or 

something. 

van der Kruk Yeah, the (inaudible) was absolutely brilliant. We didn't anticipate on 

it but we just waited till the moment. We had small positions. And 

then out ofthe close we just took like uh some positions. And in light 

of them, really fast, so we were within a day we were waiting for 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Pg 7 ofl32 

position due to losses. And I think we made in total something like one 

half million from it. 

Dowson Oh, that's nice. 

van der Kruk So that's really good. I was actually pretty happy that we didn't 

prepare anything but still we made like good profit on it. Well, we 

prepared some things but not really. 

Dowson Not as thorough as normal. 

van der Kruk Yeah, we don't. I don't think it would be like ah so good. Although I 

said, well, I expected that this time there wouldn't be so much 

anticipation because people were way too busy with it. But yeah, you 

never know. On the other end you don't want to distract your traders 

when the trading is so brilliant. But I think like a big delta position. So, 

you don't do it yourself as well so then you yeah you like get 

ridiculous closes but still we anticipate that it's pretty low and we 

made quite some money there and furthermore the trading is good. But 

urn, so, yeah, that's going pretty well. Of course, the systems and the 

programs yeah they are helpful pretty well on Thursday and Friday. 

Dowson 

On Wednesday I had quite some problems but Friday afternoon again 

we had some problems. Did you have also on Friday the problems? 

We weren't too bad. I mean apart from (inaudible) which just has not 

been virtually not working at all, they at times have been reasonably 

stable, so. 

van der Kruk Ah, ok. 

Dowson It's been ok. 

van der Kruk So you've made good money last week? 

Dowson Yeah, we had a decent week. We're now up to, we're almost the same 

as what we made last year. 

van der Kruk Oh ok. That's good. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, UC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl. wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der K;uk. to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Dowson We're almost 12 million now basically. 

Pg 8 of 132 

van der Krnk So that's really going well then. So you've got like. So you're six 

million a month and improving through the year. 

Dowson Yeah, exactly. We've had no technological improvements really. We 

had the one thing from the feed for the uh. 

van der Kruk Ye~ exactly. The one thing, how do~s it look with those guys? 

Dowson Well now, it seems it's all goma be done through Australia. Maxwell 

is going to Australia for a couple months. We're also looking to recruit 

some uh some new developers here, We've got the recruitment things 

from Australia. They will also go to Australia for some time. I'm uh 

I'm pretty happy with the current status of it. 

van der Kruk Ah, ok, so you're gonna (inaudible) your support done more or less by 

Australia. 

Dowson Yeah; actually in Australia they're just gonna train some people for us. 

Then probably 1 or 2 of Australian guys will come over here with the 

guys we've got from America and we'll be supported like that. 

van der Kruk Then they will be really good. 

Dowson Yeah, I'm pretty happy about it. It should be good. 

van der Kruk Yeah, that's really good. And will those Australians stay worldng in 

America? 

Dowson Yeah, probably 1 or 2 ofthem yeah. 

van der Kruk Ah, yeah that's brilliant. That's brilliant. 

Dowson Yeah so that's good. 

van der Kruk And when do they expect to deliver the first phase? 

Dowson I'm not so sure. They're still writing up the plan now. But I don't think 

it's going to take too long. 

van der Kruk 

Dowson REDACTED 
( 

CFTC 11. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kmk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

vanderKruk REDACTED 

Dowson 

van derKruk 

Dowson 

van derKruk 

Dowson 

van derKruk Yah, so ok, yeah. 

Dowson Hey is Randal in work today? 

van derKruk Yeah, he's in but I think be's left already. 

Pg9ofl32 

Dowson: Nah. I don't want to speak to him now. I was just curious. Do you 

want to lmow what happened in the TASes on Friday? 

van der Kruk: I heard you made like a killing there. 

Dowson: Did you hear what they did in Amsterdam? 

van der Kruk: They made also good money. 

Dowson: Did you hear how? 

van der Kruk: Yah, basically they front-run you. 

Dowson: Yeah. (laughter) Who have you been talking to about it? (laughter). 
. CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

van der Kruk: I heard it from Nick and a bit from Randal. 

Dowson: Yeah. 

van der Kruk: Yeah. What do you think about it? 

Pg 10 of132 

Dowson: I think, ah, I don't really blame Nick for it. Ifl was in his position, I 

might have done the same thing, but I think it's not a way that we 

should be trading. 

van der Kruk: No. Yeah, that's like that's the thing. It's just leaning a bit on your 

thing. But, lets first of all, it's going really well. 

Dowson: Yeah. That's a good thing so. We made like 180 grand or something. 

van der Kruk: How much are you now for the year in the T AS trading? 

Dowson: Like 450 or something. 

van der Kruk: Whoa! Is it really good? 

Dowson: After that, Ferhad and I were just talking about it a little bit and we 

just said look, we basically just want to have a position, we pretty 

much want a position every day. So we're just, we're just 99 and I 01 

now for 500 and then, we can also, what we thought then, we can 

probably disguise it a bit better as well. 

van der Kruk: How do you mean? 

Dowson: Yeah well, it's not as obvious ifpeople are like 107 or 108 bid 

everyone knows that there's going to be something coming, whereas if 

it trades normally like close to one, yeah, you can hack sometimes, 

you can be aggressive, pushing it other times, you can even do it a bit 

the other way around, uh sometimes. 

van der Kruk: Yeah, ok. It's a bit like, I don't know if it's getting pushed to 107 how 

much they trade because -. 

Dowson: No, no the volumes already went up. 

van der Kruk: They weren't that high? 

Dowson: No. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der K.ruk; Christopher Dowson 

Pg 1 I ofl32 

van der Kruk: Okay, it can be 99 -1 01 and one bid at 101 and everything (inaudible) 

and in the oil, are we getting in front? 

Dowson: No, we keep being behind it. We've been behind consistently for more 

than a week now, so. 

van der Kruk: Okay, that's a pity, eh -. 

Dowson: It's pretty annoying. But Gerban's been looking into it. Today, I 

believe uh-. 

van der Kruk: Yeah he's just back from holiday. 

Dowson: Yea, exactly, so. 

van der Kruk: So uh, yea that's good, so, uh any, some other developments, new 

things or-. 

Dowson: No not really, the urn, for the rest things go quite okay here, it's 

really nice to first have Paul and (inaudible)----- been cleaning up in 

the NASDAQ so. 

van der Kruk: Yeah. 

Dowson: Really yea. Basically all our money from last week just all came from 

NASDAQ and RUSSELL , nothing else, literally two spots we made 

all our money. 

van der Kruk: Okay Tuck wasn't there? 

Dowson: No, Tuck was back in Amsterdam. 

van der Kruk: Ok, are there your other human resources in the stocks? How did they 

do? 

Dowson: Nothing, just nothing and also in the treasuries Jordan made a minus 

last week. 

van der Kruk: So is there some hacking going to be happening? 

Dowson: We'll have to see, Jordan also changed some marc and they were 

pretty bad last week in fact very bad. 
•. 

CFTC v. ()ptiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der K,t;uk to Christopher Dowson 

Pate: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

van der Kruk: So you will be sitting down there on your ann then? 

Pg 12 of 132 

Dowson: (Laughter) Exactly. That's a bit ofyourproblem. Ifs like, where the 

fuck do you start? Linbach is still off sick. 

van der Kruk: 

Dowson: 

van der Kruk: 

Dowson: 

van der Kruk: 

Dowson: 

van der Krnk: 

Dowson: 

van der Kruk: REDACTED 

Dowson: 

van der Krnk: 

Dowson: 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Pg 13 of132 

van der Kruk: Ok. On a different note we're gonna be like, I see we are getting a bit 

short in people in Australia we lost quite some traders. We are losing 

some people to Australia, you need some people there, I need some 

people, we need to fill up so it's gonna be like for this year already 

filling up the spots that are going to be empty. We already need find 

some people. Probably and maybe some people are going to be leaving 

I don't know especially from Australia. I think big chance that some 

people will leave there, just like to settle the deal and watch for their 

bonus. Because already three guys just headed off there, did they tell 

you? 

Dowson: No. 

van der Kruk: Some of them didn't even take bonus. 

Dowson: Yeah? 

van der Kruk: They went straight ahead to the other three competitor. 

Dowson: When was that? 

van der Kruk: It's already like at the end of the year. They took the chance of not 

getting a bonus and everything. They must have been promised quite a 

good deal there. 

Dowson: Exactly. 

van der Kruk: Probably need some people there. You need some people. 

Dowson: Yeah. 

van der Kruk: Let's hope we'll get good ones. 

Dowson: Well, someone's got to train them. (hehe) 

van der Kruk: That's like, yea that helped last time. (inaudible) If you think about it 

it's a pretty big if you (inaudible) would and you basically would have 

to find out that we didn't take enough time for them and it's pretty 

shit. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Pg 14 of 132 

Dowson: I said my suggestion and it was ignored. I think we should just get 

someone that's, pay a teacher to be like up looking after them 

properly. 

van der Kruk: Or maybe even, get like a reasonable trader who is just sitting there 

with them trading them like (inaudible) ball and uh furthermore 

teaching them. It may be a bit more expensive one but it may be a 

better solution. Because what are you going to get if you get a teacher? 

. You also don't know. (Inaudible). 

Dowson: They can be nice. 

van der Kruk: But ok, you're really positive about working together with the 

Australians to get that going? (Inaudible). 

· Dowson: Yeah, I think that's gonna go pretty well. 

van der Kruk: I think that's gonna go really brilliant. I don't know. These (inaudible) 

it looks pretty fast. That's what I could see. I've traded myself with it. 

The functionalities that are in it are pretty good and it's doing the job 

properly. The only thing is it has a lot of and burkes and caches but 

they're working on it to get it stable. 

Dowson: Sounds good. 

van der Kruk: That's how they are. And for the future trading they expect to deliver 

something in three months. 

Dowson: That's just building the gateways and getting them connected right? 

van der Kruk: Yeah, but now we'll see. 

Dowson: I presume we're gonna build the gateways completely new. 

(Laughter). 

van der Kruk: Yeah, something like this, I don't know. Oh shit I (inaudible), I'll call 

him later. Maybe later on this week we should have (inaudible) a more 

if its maybe a bit later (inaudible) talk. 

Dowson: Yeah, exactly. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Pg 15 ofl32 

van der Kruk: What are the other things we need, you need. That's what the marker 

said. If you look at the paper that got out. If you roll in Fl. There's like 

a lot of things are gonna be almost no really big things you need for 

Amsterdam then. 

Dowson: Yeah exactly, that's what I think as well. It's basically getting sort of a 

future trader is the key thing. 

van der Kruk: Yeah, then it's basically then it comes down to, we have to on this side 

make like, get the OET working properly and get the futures behind it 

and see how good it is. 

Dowson: Yeah, exactly. 

van der Kruk: Ok. So, now well good work and we will maybe talk later this week 

then. I'm going home. 

Dowson: Yep. Alright, take it easy. 

van der Kruk: I'm having a busy day, busy day. I'm trading myself. 

Dowson: Wow, that's been the first for awhile, huh? 

van der Kruk: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just sitting there. (inaudible) And it's not so 

hard. 

Dowson: Not so hard. You can trade some monkeys, today eh? 

van der Kruk: On the <?ther hand, I do think, that if you just you have those spots 

making so much money if you've got someone smart sitting behind it. 

And he does for whatever reason 10% better, or 20% better, its already 

full trading spots. But I could imagine that if you, to make it properly, 

that you just may need less people. Because that's, yeah anyhow, we'll 

Dowson: 

see-. 

I got a book last week for me to read. James J. Kramer. "Confessions 

of a Street Addict." 

van der Kruk: Oh, ok. I didn't read that one. I read, "New Money." Good one. 

Dowson: This is his autobiography. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Pg 16 of132 

van der Kruk: Ok ok, yeah yeah yeah. I find him pretty cool. I should get him on 

television Holland as well. 

Dowson: Yeah exactly. 

van der Kruk: Ye3h, we'll see. I, because maybe I'm a probably a first (inaudible) to 

Stanley as well. It see a bit of planning and see when I can come over. 

Dowson: Yeah. 

van der Kruk: And you bought a speed boat already? 

Dowson: It's on the way, it's on the way (laughter). 

van der Kruk: It's on the way? 

Dowson: Yeah with these profits, might have to get a bigger one, huh? 

(laughter) 

van der Kruk: It's gonna be, if things go on like this, why not? 

Dowson: One last thing (inaudible), did you see the advert from the Australian 

office? 

van der Kruk: Yeah. I also didn't find it in line with his. 

Dowson: Yeah, that's what I thought as well. I wonder if Cathy knows about it 

or. 

van der Kruk: (Inaudible). 

Dowson: I don't fucking care about it but it seems pretty strange so. (laughter). 

van der Kruk: Yeah, I think it's uh. Did you hear we're sponsoring the Dutch 

national cricket team? 

Dowson: No, I didn't hear that. 

van der Kruk: We're sponsoring. It's going to the World Cup. 

Dowson: Oh yeah? 

van der Kruk: I think this is brilliant. We're paying 25,000 Euro for it. And we're 

shirt sponsor of the Dutch national cricket team. 

Dowson: Oh that's good. 

van der Kruk: Who are going to play India and Australia? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Dowson: Yeah. 

Pg 17 of 132 

van der Kruk: No, S. Africa. You've heard of the two best countries in the world? 

Dowson: England? 

van der Kruk: No. I think it was Australia and S. Africa. 

Dowson: Yeah, Australia is definitely the best but I don't know. That's really 

good. 

van der Kruk: But even all of this. Of the second level ones, Holland is still like 

favored to come to this thing but I don't count on it. 

Dowson: I know, that's good. 

van der Kruk: I heard like 2.2 billion people are watching it. And in India for this 

amount of money it's brilliant. 

Dowson: Yeah. 

van der Kruk: I don't understand the Dutch companies that they didn't step into it. 

Dowson: There was a, who's idea was that? 

van der Kruk: Rashit came over and 1 was sitting together with Randal. And he was 

telling yeah they didn't have a shirt sponsor and they were going to 

this and blahdy blahdy blah. And then Randal and I were a bit like, no, 

no (inaudible). I don't understand. And Randal was a bit like I think 

you should do it. And Randal said yeah just go to Yella (ph.) maybe 

this can be good for us. And then it was arranged within a few days. 

But they didn't have like a sponsor up to now so they were really 

under pressure to get it, any kind of money they could get, they would 

do it. So now basically we're the official sponsor on all the shirts 

there. I think all the English guys here in the office, they love it. And I 

think the Australians, if they see it, they're gonna love it as well. 

Dowson: Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's good. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Pg 18 ofl32 

van der Kruk: Yeah, I think it's good for them. Yella (ph.) really really pushed them. 

Because they asked for $250,000 Euro which is normal and then they 

basically said yeah whatever you'll pay us. And then it went down to 

50 or 25. And then we went in for 25. And we had to pay 1,000 Euros 

to get the things printed on the shirts and then we were there. That's 

awesome. Yeah, I think it's a really good idea. 

Dowson: It's nice. 

van der Kruk: So, yeah. It's not gonna make us millions, but.· 

Dowson: No. 

van der Kruk: But it's starting. 

Dowson: So we all have to get cricket shirts now. 

van der Kruk: Yeah, exactly. Hey uh, good luck there. I'm curious to hear, how long 

is (inaudible) going to stay there? 

Dowson: He's staying another couple of weeks. 

van der Kruk: And Paul? 

Dowson: Paul's uh, back next week. 

van der Kruk: Ah, ok. I've been thinking also maybe of those two, Paul and Kip, I 

was thinking maybe its good, because Marcell is always pretty sharp 

and everything, to swap Marcell with one of those guys, with Kip or 

Paul. What would you suggest? 

Dowson: What do you mean to swap them? 

van der Kruk: No, I think-. 

Dowson: For permanently or for? 

van der Kruk: What say? 

Dowson: Permanently or for temporary? 

van der Kruk: No, just for a few weeks. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

Pg 19 of 132 

Dowson: Yeah, basically, actually might have been smarter is, was yeah to do 

the other way around. Because you wouldn't want. It's so chaotic here. 

There are so many difficulties with the administration and small 

details and things, you don't want Kip there on his own. 

van der Kruk: No. 

Dowson: But, urn. You could swap Marcell and Pa~l for a short time. But of 

course Paul is just really valuable so you want him wherever you can, 

everybody wants him. 

van der Kruk: Yeah, but I think maybe it's better to swap him off with Kip then. 

Dowson: 

Now then, uh. 

You could put Kip to just come and visit like for a bit or even just 

come and work here. 

van der Kruk: Yeah that would be good. They've been making lots of shit loads 

lately, like half a million. 

Dowson: I bet. I spoke to Hunter. He said they had a bit of a, some shit thing 

with positions that cost them. 

van der Kruk: Today, yeith. 

Dowson: Yeah. 

van der Kruk: He told me as well. 

Dowson: A mistake. 

van der Kruk: Before that they were a bit lucky he said. They had deltas and all. 

Dowson: Yeah, these things happen when it gets a bit more chaotic huh? 

Sometimes it's not as ah neat and tidy as you would like it to be. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg20 ofl32 

Transcript of 1281Xl.wav 

Description: Call from Edwin van der Kruk to Christopher Dowson 

Date: 3/5/07 

Parties: Edwin van der Kruk; Christopher Dowson 

END 

van der Kruk: As long as you keep on doing well, you should go big for the big 

monies. But they might be (inaudible) that everybody stays pretty calm 

and just keeps on trading. But you have to work on that. And in the 

end yeah if you then, yeah ok sometimes you let something fall but 

you just keep on trading. You keep marching and just check 

everything properly then you can make good money. 

Dowson: Yeah. 

van der Kruk: But good luck there. Say hi to everybody. 

Dowson: I will do. 

van der Kruk: I'm looking forward to my next visit to the Capitol Grill and to what 

was that bar? 

Dowson: I'll have the speedboat ready for you that time. 

van der Kruk: The speedboat. Alright. 

Dowson: Alright, take it easy. 

van der Kruk: I'm looking forward to it. 

Dowson: Ok, bye. 

van der Kruk: Ok, see you. Bye. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 21 of 132 

Transcript of 128XCP.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/8/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson; Randal Meijer 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

[This is J Randal 

Hey Randal, it's Chris. 

Hey. 

Got a minute to call you. 

Yah, I wanted to lmow how you exactly get theTAS contracts because 

we get one in the, there's also this, what's it called, the Brent, have 

you seen that one? 

Yeah, yeah, we quote in that as well. 

Yah, but is it a minute marker? 

Oh yeah, okay, the minute marker, so essentially that trades - it only 

can trade at even, basically -

Yah, we trade it at zero because I wanted to see how powerful you, 

you actually have it, how powerful your position is when you want to 

beat the VW AP -- or, well actually not even beat it, or just - yah, if 

you can move the market. So we did the thousand that were out there, 

it was just a bid for a thousand, and no counterparties. (Inaudible). I 

was just wondering how you guys traded it? 

How we make the money you mean? 

Yah, what exactly you trade - we now bought half of it, 3 minutes 

before hand, and the other 500- it's a one minute one, this one- so the 

other 500 during the minute. And it went up a little bit but I got a 

feeling it was more the market than we did anything (laughter). 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg 22 ofl32 

Transcript of 128XCP.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/8/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson; Randal Meijer 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Dowson: 

Yeah, exactly, I mean basically it depends on the product actually and 

for us for the oil, for the WTI, we've really not been trying to bully it. 

Normally you don't have some like big counter party there is enough 

liquidity there that basically the worse thing that can possibly happen 

to you is that you try to bully it and you run out of power. 

(laughter) and then the market just moves, I mean, apart from what 

you were doing. Of course, a thousand futures is at least something 

during your 3rd period but it's not like anything huge. 

So basically for us - if you compare that to the WTI, what we do with 

that, we never try and really pummel it anywhere. We never really try 

and push it, and so that's not the one where- where we're sort of using 

our scheme and what we do do, is this: we do a little bit - lets say we 

do less than 20% before hand when we do WTI, and we do it over the 

2 minutes in a trajectory, so basically the remaining 80%, you do twothirds of that 80% after 1 minute- and this is for a couple of reasons, 

I) it mirrors most accurately the volume that trades over that time and 

secondly, you've got more or less 3 things that can happen : either it 

goes with you; also if you have to buy it going up or if you have to 

buy and it's going down; or nothing is happening. So these are your 

three essential things 

If you have to buy and you see that there's big sellers in, actually that 

can be nice for you, you just layer your bids in things are mainly 

trading above you and you just get hit on the way down and you 

normally make a bit better than VW AP. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 23 ofl32 

Transcript of 128XCP.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/8/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson; Randal Meijer 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Yah exactly, then you've gotta beat VW AP, but of course in the end 

you try to make money. I mean the scalping beforehand and beating 

VW AP is quite nice but the most money you make when you can 

really-. of course, when you just have more than the liquidity 

available at the moment, let's say. 

But that's not for us; that's not been something that we've done in the 

WTI. 

Yah, I don't know how much trading (inaudible) done because in the 

Brent, only like 900 futures trading at normally 300 per minute or so 

and like 700 or 800 in that minute. 

Exactly. 

But is that a lot compared to Crude [oil contract] because it didn't 

seem too much? I mean, if you need to do a 1000, the it'sThis is the whole thing, I mean probably if you have like 2000 Crudes 

to do, you already -you've got a bit of power- and the other thing that 

you have to remember, let's say people are paying one over - in the 

Crude, then you're not the only one, so you can also anticipate that 

other people will have to buy during that time as well. 

Yah, that's a bit funny (inaudible) at zero? (chuckles) 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. Pg 24 ofl32 

Transcript of 128XCP.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/8/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson; Randal Meijer 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Exactly, that's the whole point that- in the crude we have more or less 

just looked at that as an indicator, and yes in general there's market 

bidders or something like this. But we've really not tried to push that 

because although - you then basically start to risk big amounts of 

money and when there is definitely going to be a time when there are 

people who just want to do a lot, for example, in the opposite direction 

and then you can really just get hammered from it. When we really 

made our good money it's come from in the products where - then 

you're talking about normal trading during those 2 minutes is 300 

futures or 400 futures, something like that. If you have a thousand to 

do then you (inaudible). 

We could have done more on this one. It seems also like genuine 

volume. I mean, when we hit the bids, in this case at least. It was also 

multiple counterparties. I don't even understand because sometimes 

you see three lot or eleven lot. What kind of orders are that? 

Yeah exactly. 

What the fuck do they want? (laughter) 

Why would anyone want to trade this and not just buy fu~es? 

Yah exactly, I just didn't get it, but anyway, so okay, say you have to 

be very careful with this one actually? 

The more likely that .there can be a counterparty; the more wary I am 

on it. We definitely are a lot less aggressive in the Crude than we are 

in theThan in the other ones. 

But I still think - this is the other thing as well, it's actually nicer to 

have a position of 800 than a position of200. A position of200 in the 

gasoline for example is probaQly the worst you can have because 

you've got-

.·· .. , 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg25 ofl32 

Transcript of 128XCP.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/8/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson; Randal Meijer 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

You really don't know what to do. You cannot move anything. 

You have to trade a big amount during the time, but you don't dare to 

bully anybody, so that's probably the worse position that you can 

have. 

Yeah, I want to see how it works a little bit because it's really 

interesting ifthere is bullying, let's say it's possible at a certain stage-

-it's definitely not risk free and this 32 doesn't mean anything, but I'll 

maybe try again tomorrow and see whatThis is a bit of a thing I also have over here as well - what I like being 

the-- sort of99 bid at 101 as well at least is that you got a good uh --I 

mean I suppose even if you sell even you could still say -- look we 

think we can get edge and trade in the same sector, it doesn't matter--

I was just thinking more about if people come to you with stories 

about why you manipulated the market and things like this. 

Yeah, okay, then you can still say yeah because we can still make 

some from scalping -- but you actually don't really manipulate 

because you actually have an order that you just need to close your 

positionWe just, we can execute better than VW AP, that's why we do it. 

Exactly, that's what we think at least (chuckling). 

·<· 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg26 ofl32 

Transcript of 128XCP.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/8/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson; Randal Meijer 

Dowson: · That's a fairy story. But I have the same over here that I do want to 

basically get some experience from it and I want to try to have a 

couple of days positions in the product close to a thousand seeing if 

we can just consistently beat it I think also what we have here -it's 

pretty interesting seeing what direction they're in at both times. We 

have a few types of tricks and slightly different strategies depending 

on, let say. The other day we had to buy all three. And so then they 

were really bidding in the oil. We sold our limit and then we also went 

short on the others, so we knew we were bidding all three so you 

expect some bidding pressure in the oil anyway. We were pretty 

aggressive beforehand then, but then you have another thing when 

let's say you have the oil opposite to one of your products. 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

They all expire at 8:30? 

Yeah exactly; they all have the same -

Yah, the nice one of this is that it's just 5:30 and there is nothing else 

expiring at that time. 

Yeah, you can watch it and -

(Laughter) Yah, we'll try again tomorrow and see when we start 

bleeding. 

Yeah, exactly. What you might want to do just as a tip for tomorrow -

do the pushing as much as you can in the minute before the marker. 

Yah, I already thought three minutes was a bit long. 
CFTC v_ Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 27 ofl32 

Transcript of t28XCP.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/8/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson; Randal Meijer 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

So don't try and- especially because it's more liquid you should just 

do this- basically, let's say you have a 1000 to do tomorrow, even just 

30 seconds before the minute marker starts, just do 500 then, let's say 

you have to buy, and really try and push it up as much as you can, and 

then in the minute don't try and push it too much harder, just try and 

defend it let's say. The thing that's nice about that- the minute, the 

idea of it is to attract the liquidity, so you have more chance to sort of 

bully in the minute before where-- that's the 300 minute as opposed to 

an 800 minute-- so that's one of the things we've tried as well. But 

the other thing to remember is that the worst thing that can happen is 

running out of power. So if you see somebody against youThen you have to be careful and put your bids in. I mean, the risk is 

not so much doing it a bit worse than VW AP. It's actually not the big 

risk. The big risk is the (inaudible) you take on from actually doing 

pre-buying or pre-selling and then suddenly something happening. 

And you just (inaudible) off for 300 futures. 

If you see someone big against you just accept that you gonna take a 

small loss on that day and just go defensive and just scale in your bids 

as much as possible. 

Yah, exactly, try to get VW AP or a bit worse but that's not so bad. 

Okay, we'll try again tomorrow. 

It's a fun game though, huh? 

Yep (laughter), it's a nice game. It's fun anyway, but if the flow is 

genuine- it's also in this one, although the product is funny, I can see 

that you can definitely make good money from it, so especially if you 

do it in all commodities, or any product actually in general. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 128XCP.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/8/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson; Randal Meijer 

Pg 28 ofl32 

Dowson: The soft commodities, they start next week. But we have to see if 

there is enough volume in the electronic underlyings and things like 

that. 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Miejer: 

Okay, we'll see. Enjoy your day. 

Have a good day. 

Thank you. Bye. 
CFTC v_ Optiver US, LLC, et a!. 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Pg29 ofl32 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

[Speaker [Dutch spoken] 

Unknown] 

[Speaker [Dutch spoken] 

Unknown] 

(Speaker [Dutch spoken] 

Unknown] 

(Speaker [Dutch spoken] 

Unknown] 

(Speaker [Dutch spoken] 

Unknown] 

[Speaker [Dutch spoken] 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Have you (inaudible) payment on him? 

Unknown] 

[Speaker [Dutch spoken] 

Unknown] 

[Speaker (inaudible) Did you have a different get his IP address now 

Unknown] 

[Speaker (inaudible) call us 

Unknown] 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. Pg 30 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

[Speaker [Dutch spoken] 

Unknown] 

00:38 Dowson The number that you're trying to call, which one is it? 

[Speaker What the- IP address? 10.51.10.30 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Yeah, that should be good. 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Is that the same as you were trying? 

Unknown] 

[Speaker No, that's not (inaudible) 

Unknown] 

[Speaker At least it's yours, you mean? 

Unknown] 

[Speaker 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Yeah, But the speed is only 512 kilobits. 

Unknown] 

[Speaker (laughter) (inaudible) 

Unknown] 

[Speaker I know, but it doesn't connect. Do you get the same error 

Unknown] message, disconnecting call? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. Pg 31 of 132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

[Speaker Yeah. 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Oh, great. Then we need some help, probably, from 

Unknown] somebody. 

[Speaker (inaudible) 

Unknown] 

[Speaker I'll put you on speaker, we can already start by phone then. 

Unknown] 

Dowson Are you asking for help? 

[Speaker Yeah, Jan asking for help. 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Ok 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Shall weUnknown] 

Visser (inaudible) 

[Speaker One minuteUnknown] 

[Speaker (inaudible) 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Shall we start with everyone? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 32 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Yeah 

Unknown] 

[Speaker yeah 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Get the weekly update. Yeah, from your end then. 

Unknown] 

van Kempen Me? It's em, we still have- Most of our questions we 

already discussed last week have been answered. So far on 

the development side, I don't know, if you see the Maxwell 

is going to Sydney to help with the development. (inaudible) 

is gonna lead to the development of the market links, in 

Sydney. The total development time, they described in the 

document; I have it compiled into one main document that it 

looks somewhere 6 months from today until implementation. 

On .the infrastructure side, Bas made some recommendations 

regarding infrastructure also regarding people into time to 

implementation he expected in total would be right about, for 

the York infrastructure, 2-4 weeks, but the total, other 

infrastructure would be around like 2 months. On top of that, 

he suggested certain skill sets related to certain people, but 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg 33 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.w~v 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

we're still trying to figure out how many people exactly that 

would be, and Jan is conferencing that with Michael and Bas. 

Visser I did this morning 

[Speaker Ok 

Unknown) 

Visser And, he will be updated on Monday. But what we will need 

is three unix guys, with slightly different expertises. Let's 

say, (inaudible) units (inaudible) But, a lot in about three 

with unix expertise. That's what you need for support. Of 

course, that's not including the support that's delivered by 

the developers. 

[Speaker Uh, yeah. 

Unknown) 

Visser So we will need, that's the estimate currently, at least a team 

of 3 developers to keep it up and running here and three 

support guys. I will detail the expertises together with 

Michael on Monday morning and send it over to Kevin so 

Kevin can can match it to what he already has and what he 

thinks he can use or whether he thinks he will need three 

brand new hires. 

Dowson Yeah maybe he can send some people (inaudible) but that's 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg 34 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

up to Kevin to decide. 

van Kempen Yah for the three developers, outside Maxwell we've 

discussed it with Charles, and Charles and Jessica have set 

out a recruitment plan and that's just started getting in motion 

as of probably 3:30 yesterday. So based upon, Australian 

specs the job description's been sent out and it'll go through 

recruitment as they do it through, through Australian 

standards. 

Visser Ok. There's one other thing that I would like and that's, 

that's, let's say to formalize the project structure. 

Visser I talked about this with Michael and what I had in mind was 

not too heavy, not too top heavy but that you would be the 

overall project leader. 

van Kempen Yeah. 

Visser That Michael would have the deliveries, so the development, 

van Kempen Yeah. 

Visser That Kevin, but I told you that, that Kevin would have, and 

it's an important part of the project, the let's say the, the 

managing and setting up the, at one, support, in Chicago of 

course with a lot of aid of Bas over in Australia and, and the 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 35 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 · 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaerningk 

(Amsterdam) 

developers that will visit, will visit Chicago; but that Kevin 

would take that responsibility say. 

[Speaker ·[inaudible] 

-Unknown} 

[Speaker If he has the time for it of course because he has a lot of 

Unknown} responsibilities too. But I think you should have someone in 

the lead to, implement the support structure over there 

van Kempen yeah, that's, uh, that's correct 

[Speaker ok; so how would you feel about it so that the day's project 

Unknown} team, project leading would be in principle Bastiaan and you, 

Michael and, uh, Kevin probably, and when needed, Charles 

could attend for in depth technical questions. Does it make 

sense to you? 

van Kempen Yeah, that makes, that makes sense to me. Like, right now, 

Bas has been quite involved in describing the infrastructure 

but I think it makes most sense if Kevin takes the lead on this 

on this end because he actually has to implement it. 

Visser Ok, and then yeah basicallyvan Kempen (Inaudible) into that, because that's a question that I asked 

you before. You said this would be somewhat like a steering 

committee. 

•·· .. , 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. Pg 36 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 · 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Visser Yah, I would prefer, let's say, it to have a steering 

committee, a steering committee which is basically here 

(inaudible) me or Randal (inaudible) and you would each 

Friday give a report about it in this and we would have a 

separate agenda point every day, every Friday like we more 

or less like we already have, where we report and we can, if 

needed, take very high level project positions. 

van Kempen Yeah, this makes some, it's sort Of in line with what I 

described, but I described Charles as the lead of development 

instead of Michael, I think Michael probably makes more 

sense. OK 

Visser So did we decide on that -

[Speaker Yep. 

Unknown] 

Visser Fine. Yeah, basically that was what -- Did you already 

receive the requirements from Michael? 

van Kempen We even responded ba~k to it already. 

Visser Oh you're so fast. 

Visser OK. I thought it was a very good document for starters. But 

what about, what do you think? 

[Speaker I think it's, yeah, I mean pretty much in depth and it 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 37 of 132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Unknown] describes all the potential issues we could see (inaudible) 

[Speaker Gor experienced people like you. 

Unknown] 

Dowson Sorry, I didn't get that. Can you say that again? 

Kaemingk Oh, I just made a joke. I said and how is it for experienced 

people, experienced project managers? 

van Kempen Oh, Ok. I, I don't know. (chuckles) You should ask an 

experienced project manager. 

Kaemingk That's you. 

van Kempen No this is a first timer. 

[Speaker No, you're skilled in, an experienced project manager. 

Unknown] 

van Kempen Ah, ok. 

[Speaker I won't do with anything less. 

Unknown] 

[Speaker Chris, you make sure he delivers on time. 

Unknown] 

Dowson Oh don't worry about that. 

[Speaker Alright, thank you. That's what I like to hear 

Unknown] 

van Kempen We're trying to put the deadline like at the end of2009 right 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg 38 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

now. 

Visser? Very good. Very good. Ok. So that's the project 

organization. We have, let's say, two reasonably short term 

deliverables. The first one is, let's say, to sign off the 

requirements so there's agreement on that? 

[Speaker Uhhuh. 

Unknown] 

Visser The second one will have to come from Michael, he's 

already preparing that, make a, let's say enough detailed 

project, development scheme that there are milestones on 

which you can get reports and, and steer a bit and to check 

whether everything's ok. 

[Speaker Sure. 

Unknown] 

Visser Ok, that's all. For me, that's all with regard to the to that one 

project right now. 

van Kempen I think the other issues can be discussed at a later time. 

Visser On more or less related - when Michael was going over to 

Australia he said he was very was fond of the idea but first he 

has to finish the NASDAQ reactor feed, feed scripts. 

[Speaker Yeah, you've spoken to him? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg 39 of 132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Unknown] 

Visser I did not. You were supposed to speak to him. 

van Kempen I spoke to him. He's fond of the idea. I've also heard from 

Jessica that there is no visa requirement so that he could 

leave relatively soon like on a travel visa and, Australia 

would be no problem. I'm not really sure yet how long the 

NASDAQ reactor project will take and hopefully he'll get 

back with a time line on that. 

Visser I'm thinking in terms of a few weeks, to be polished. 

(Speaker Yeah. 

Unknown} 

Visser Ok, you do to? 

van Kempen I'll contact Charles and maybe Yungjust to make sure that if 

you're building it to a specific protocol at least make sure 

you're building it to a similar protocol that they're using right 

now in Australia. 

Dowson One comment while we're on this subject. I didn't mention it 

in my emails this week to Randal because I was on, I just had 

a day off at the time. But, we Arwin had an incident where 

his ROX feed froze just before figures this week and, we lost 

like a quarter of a million on it. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al Pg40 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 · 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Meijer Ok. 

[Speaker What? 

Unknown] 

We, urn, Arwin, Arwin's proj--, this project ofMaxwell that 

we're trying to replace. Or the thing that we're trying to 

replace that we don't trust and we think it's unreliable proved 

those suspicions correct this week by breaking down, during 

some oil figures, and to quite the cost of like a quarter 

million What we've 9one is we've looked, the IT guys are 

still looking into it with ROX to see what exactly the issue 

was. It seems pretty clear it wasn't on, on our server side. 

And we've gone through again and checked our safety 

settings. They could have been a little bit better I have to 

say, but, even ifwe'd have had them exactly how we think 

they should be it wouldn't have made so much difference, it 

would have maybe saved a quarter of the cost, something like 

that. but that was pretty nasty. 

Kaemingk But, what happened to the feed he normally got? 

[Speaker (inaudible) it goes too wide 

Unknown] 

[Speaker -it goes, you see it going wide or being completely -
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 41 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Unknown} 

[Speaker Zero market 

Unknown] 

Dow son - completely zero market or completely the wrong price or 

something like this. In which case we have safety settings 

that pull our market but in this case more or less it just 

stopped. and we do have a safety setting that says after so 

many seconds if no updates then pull, but what happened 

here was that it just stopped working about I 0 seconds before 

oil figures and urn -

van Kempen We were already expecting the numbers coming out of 

course and they were quoting wider because of it and the 

exposure in general is large because you're quoting 

independent exchanges and those safety settings aren't set as 

a group but they're set by the exchange , the safety settings 

were triggered and they did work but the total exposure is 

still very great. 

Dowson So, that's urn, this is of course something we know about it 

and something we knew was a risk, it's just quite unfortunate 

that it happened the day before Maxwell was about to start on 

this project. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg42 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Meijer And Maxwell has got his NASDAQ feed but do you also still 

rely on NYSE feed for your (inaudible) option trading. 

Dowson Well, I mean, for Arwin, the preference would probably be 

for him to have NYSE feed but, he can get away with, he 

can get away with the NASDAQ feed and it would be 

preferable to the current situation. 

Meijer So if Maxwell has built NASDAQ reactor you don't need 

ROX anymore? 

Dowson No. 

Meijer At least not for feed purposes? 

Meijer You still need it for hedging purposes? 

Dowson Yeah, but it's satisfactory for that. 

Meijer Yah. Ok. Alright, then the third IT thing is the short sell 

investigation. 

Dowson What exactly, what exactly was the question on this? 

Meijer It's been there a while of course and everyone keeps asking 

· me what the hell do we want with this. My question is it still 

necessary. of course we left it long ago and Bastiaan made 

one comment about a rumor that it would be abolished at a 

certain stage. Is it now, yah, is it a request, does IT have to do 

anything about this, uh, short sell, do we have to implement it 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg43 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

other than we use at the moment? 

van Kempen I mean it's still a rule, it's still being reviewed by the other 

departments. We did get audited on it last August by the 

PHLX and they did write up that we had some violations. 

They did notify us that they recommended the letter without 

action, so no real sanctions based on those violations. The 

SEC, or some people within the SEC, had still commented 

that this part of the (inaudible) should be abolished but the 

timeline is normally- it's been regulated, it could be a year 

where right now we, go the individual instances that it 

happens and just give good education of the traders and with 

the systems that we currently have in place, we, we seem to 

be ok and if it becomes more of an epidemic that we have 

more and more violations then we should address it at that 

time. Right now I don't think we need to address anything in 

specific. 

Meijer Well, you couldn't make me happier, so we can remove it 

from the list. 

van Kempen] I would say so, yeah. 

Meijer OK, excellent. So now then we'll inform (inaudible). 

van Kempen I thought you had a short sale investigation (inaudible)? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg44 of 132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemiilgk 

(Amsterdam) 

Meijer Yah, but that's also the one or two, nobody's pushing me to 

do anything about it over here. 

van Kempen I mean, if there are changes in the regulatory spectrum, I'll 

let you know. 

Meijer Yah, ask them to hurry up. 

(laughter) 

Meijer Because, yah, we know that in time it will be likely at least 

that we have more issues, at least run the risk of more issues. 

Meijer Do you guys have any other IT? These were the three things 

I had. 

Visser I have one. I notice that still there's a bit of tension, more or 

less, between support over there and support over here about 

what authorizations Chicago should have and what 

authorizations Amsterdam should keep. It's a bit irritating 

every once in a while but I will address them together with 

{inaudible) and Kevin in one meeting the following week. 

van Kempen Kevin has written down all the authorizations he would like 

to have for the Chicago office. 

Visser Yeah, I gave them to (inaudible) and to Kevin in every 

respect, but he will, we will, I will have a meeting with the 

two of them and I'm sure we will have a sane division there. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg45 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

van Kempen One thing I'd like to mention for the daylight savings time, 

which happens this weekend, it's normal. Kevin has 

requested a couple of services from Amsterdam that need to 

be performed on our servers. I'm not sure how that's going 

but that actually needs to be addressed because otherwise 

there might be some issues on Monday. And there might be 

issues on your end as well, but I don't know what the impact 

is of that. 

Visser I think (inaudible) is already taking care of that, but I will 

. check it right after this meeting. 

van Kempen Okay, thanks. 

Visser Okay, that's all from me on the IT side. 

Meijer Anything from you? 

Visser No. 

Meijer Okay, then we can dismiss Jan Marten. 

Visser Thank you sir. [Chuckles] 

Meijer Then, the other trading please? 

[Inaudible.] 

Meijer· First the T ASes. 

Dowson The TASe? ---Okay. 

Meijer The TASes, trading at settlement, from uh, starting from a 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg46 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

risk point of view, I could see- or, at least I see three 

different uh situations, uh, one is being that the position we 

have traded before the expiration begins. That's like 

[unintelligible] involves a risk that we cannot trade anymore, 

let's say, so-

(Speaker Yeah, that the exchange is closed or whatever. 

Unknown] 

Dowson Yep. 

Meijer How, how have you solved this? 

Dowson Tthat the exchange is closed, then we would be in, urn yeah, 

quite some problems, I believe [inaudible]. Then I would 

want to know how they are going to do the settlement thing, 

so yeah, we can look into that if, if we have technical 

problems then we have the brokers to, and good traders, to 

trade futures for us on the floor. 

Meijer Okay, and you have the numbers of those brokers, you know 

who to call and uh what to do then already. 

Dowson And, and with regards to our systems we also have backup 

systems, so we have the TT as an alternative to the 

Eccoware. 

Meijer Yeah. But the products only trade, only on the CME at the 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 47 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

time eh? 

Dowson: Uh-

[Speaker -on GlobexUnknown) 

Dowson Yeah. 

Meijer Yeah, we have, at least we have if the ICE expiration then 

we'll always have the CME as a backup, let's say. 

Dowson Uh, well not in the Brent. 

Meijer No, not the Brent, but they trade the crude I mean, if it -

Dowson - the first, the first, the Crudes basically, the Crudes expire at 

the same time as each of those, so you have the two 

exchanges as a backup for each other for the crude let's say. 

Meijer Yah, okay, I see so that already helps. But I definitely think 

we should, uh, look into, uh, I mean I could see the brokers, 

if we cannot trade, we have the brokers. But if the exchange 

closes you definitely need to know what the rules are. 

Dowson Yeah, exactly. 

Meijer Yeah, maybe it's just an opening print of the next day, but 

it's very important you know what to do with your, possibly 

100 to 200 million that you have left. 

Dow son Yeah. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. Pg48 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

[Speaker Unkown] Yep. 

Meijer Uh, then the second and third positions I see just before -, 

well we have the position we pre-buy or pre-sell before the 

expiration begins. 

Dowson Yeah. 

Meijer And then we have the position going into the expiration. 

Dowson Yeah. 

Meijer And to, and to begin with uh, the latter one, yeah I don't see 

that as such a big risk because even if there is a market 

movement or we have a opposite partyDowson Yeah. 

Meijer We still, yeah, we're just going for VW AP and yah, I'm sure 

we, we, yeah, we try to be on bids or offers and it might be a 

bit messy, but the worst thing you will do is a couple of ticks 

worse than VW AP. 

Dowson Yeah, exactly. 

Meijer Yah, and that's ya, of course with a big enough position it 

can hurt you, but it's not a huge risk or anything, I think. 

Dowson I think if you, if you look for risk management purposes or 

something if you said you missed it by uh 30 ticks, that's, 

huge. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg49 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Meijer Yah, that's huge and, and, then you should fire the trader 

doing it. 

Dowson Exactly (laughter). 

Meijer Yah, it's then, it's just, I don't know what he has been doing 

then. And even if, so, so that makes also if you see funny 

things happening just - up till the expiration, you can still 

decide not to pre-buy or pre-sell. 

Dowson Exactly. 

Meijer Yah, so, actually, the biggest concern next to who is the part, 

we have pre bought or sold. 

Dowson Yeah. 

Meijer And so that's, actually-, I was happy with that because that's 

actually, that's where we can set the limits for. 

Dowson Yeah. 

Meijer So actually the limits I gave you - Yah and maybe now 

they're a bit big, but I don't have- I think that's the uh 

amount we should limit to maybe 40 or 50 million for an on 

the line. 

Dowson So the amount that we can do beforehand? 

Meijer Yah, exactly, so I don't have a problem if you buy, if you 

have already traded- and Johann should step in when he 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg 50 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

doesn't agree- for example, 5,000 futures, but you should 

limit to pre-buy or pre-sell, probably only 500. 

Dowson Yah, exactly. Now I also think-

[Speaker 500,000 mill 

Unknown] 

Meijer Yeah 500, but I- let's say, let's say 50 million. They can 

pre-buy or pre-sell 50 million, and then pretty close, but 

that's what we want anyway, pretty close before, so you're 

talking a couple of minutes before that it happens. 

Dowson Exactly. 

Meijer And pre-buy or pre-sell 50 million, depending on, per 

commodity. And then, whatever you, yah, of course you, but 

they might have maybe 300 million during the period. 

Dowson Now does - Bas just wrote it down exactly as I was 

thinking, ... 

Meijer Yah. 

Dowson There is a difference though, for example, let's say I'm 

gonna buy, -, I'm gonna buy oils and I'm gonna sell 

gasolines. The amount that you're be willing to do 

beforehand in that spread -

Meijer Yeah. 

'.'( 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et at. Pg 51 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Dowson - is bigger than the amount if you were just doing them both 

in the same direction. 

Kaemingk I agree with that. 

Meijer Yeah, because they spread out a little bit anyway. 

Dowson But, now well, let -

[Inaudible] 

Dowson Let, okay, let's say, you do this, the risk that you have just 

describedMeijer Yah. 

Dowson -let's say I just had one product, and I did 500 of them 

beforehand. 

Meijer Yah. 

Dowson And then there's a big market move or the exchange falls 

down or whatever -

Meijer Yeah. 

Kaemingk but 500 is 30 million -

Meijer No, let's say, let's just stop at 550 million. 

Dowson Yeah. 

Meijer Yah, in Crude, it's 30 million, that's right but yah-. 

Dowson Yeah, okay. 

Meijer 30 million, alright. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg52 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Dowson Okay. So ifl have a position of about 30 million deltas -

Meijer Yeah. 

Dowson -just in one thing, or I had bought 30 million in crude 

beforehand and I sold 30 million, in gasoline, yeah, this is 

just, uh, way lower risk of course. 

Meijer Yep. 

Dowson So. 

Kaemingk So, yes, but I assume you know yah, it can be manipulated 

let's say by major oil companies or whatever with one 

percent. 

Dowson Now, yeah, oh definitely, so I don't... listen, I don't say it's 

no risk ... (laughter). 

Kaemingk Oh, I see, yah. 

Dowson It will be for the, I'm talking for the sort of disaster scenarios. 

Kaemingk Yah. 

Dowson I see that as being being a lower risk, so -

Kaemingk But, but uh, because now I'm alert because normally, then 

certainly Tuesday or Wednesday I think have we thought on 

that, so I have to be now very careful. Urn, now first of all, 

Yung- is he completely aware of- Bastiaan? Cause Yung 

is also at least partly your responsibility. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. Pg 53 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

van Kempen Yeah, uh, I spoke to Yung about the TAS contracts 

themselves. There is an issue in that he can't really see them 

properly in the systems. 

[Speaker Unkown] Yep. 

Kaemingk But, does he, does he understand it and does he -? 

van Kempen He understands it I mean I went through the basics how it 

works and what we exactly do and he understands that part of 

it. But I, I,- during the day, like right now, he can't really 

assess the risk. At the end of the day everything settles and 

there's no future contract so he can't really see what we've 

done during the day. 

Kaemingk Yah, this -, okay, his first priority is to check all positions 

once a day, alright? But urn, urn there's also little bit, urn can 

he, can he understand it and everything? Basically -

van Kempen Actually the scenario is -

Kaemingk I, , I tend to agree with all the products have cash settlements. 

van Kempen No, they all settle in the physical future but if the future 

doesn't have a delta until you get to settlement price? 

[Speaker Yep. 

Unknown] 

Kaemingk Yeah, alright, but let's- but the physical, you then have then 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 54 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) · 

to deliver something or have to buy something? 

Meijer You agree to sell or buy at the VW AP a certain amount of 

futures. 

[Speaker Yeah. 

Unknown] 

Kaemingk Yeah right, and then you have to -

Meijer and during the one or two minute period you, uh, get it back. 

Kaemingk Yeah umok. 

Dowson So we intend to have a zero position at the end of every -

urn, at 1:31 every day we intend to have a zero position. 

Meijer Yeah, but as I describe it now Chris, as I can see it you an 

have a bigger limit than, but because what we normally said 

was a thousand or we had said that was for having a position. 

Dowson Yah. 

Meijer· But like I'm suggesting now, you can, okay, you can, can--

I want to suggest you can have 250 million underlying. 

Dowson Yah. 

Meijer In position, but only pre-buy 50 million. 

Dowson Well, IMeijer And if you have a combination of positions then I'd like to 

see you schedule. What position you can pre-buy. 
_ .. ;_-

CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg 55 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Dowson Exactly. Yeah, I'll ask Ferhad to do that, uh for you. 

Kaemingk Yes, , because I like to have a second thought because now -, 

because the numbers are getting quite -, 

Meijer Yeah, I can get those numbers from the AEX expiration. 

Kaemingk Yeah, but for me a little bit you know, with uh .. I-I'd like to 

have some additional information about - yeah, about the size 

of the market and so on. Because when you're talking about, 

let's say S&P futures, AEX or whatever you're talking about 

an underlying basket of 4 or 500 billion. 

Meijer Oh we'd' like it to be little, eh? 

Dowson That's how, that's how, we make our money from. 

Meijer Oh, because my next sentence was going to be, exactly, this 

goes until. This is all built on the idea that we can control the 

VW AP. Yeah, as soon as we get indication that we can't 

we're not going to do it anymore actually or not like this at 

least. 

Dowson Exactly. And that's why we're also more cautious in the way 

-more cautious in the crude oil, than we are in the products. 

Meijer So illiquidity is a good thing to come back to Johann's 

theme. 

Meijer Yah. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 56ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 . 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Dowson Essentially, they demand huge liquidity in a product that's 

just not that liquid. And so what we do is, we say, okay, 

we'll take those from you and we just spread those, those 

futures out over, yeah, instead of a two minute period, we 

spread them out over a three minute period, let's say. 

Meijer Yah, yah, I understand. 

{Speaker Unkown] Yeah. 

Dowson That's what we make our money from. 

Kaemingk Yeah, yeah, it's like exactly you know like trading the basket 

without any professional counterparties and only a retail 

firm. 

Meijer Yeah, and it's a really, nice given thing, and at least we can 

explain from a fundamental point ofview, that if it's true, 

and it will also seem to be true and that's why I would like to 

do it. 

Kaemingk And this can work ... my experience is that it worked in the 

basket let's say for over a year, I think from '87 til the 

beginning of '88, and then some other traders would do it in 

a huge way and then you could better have no position ... 

{Speaker Yeah. 

Unknown] 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg57 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Meijer Because you will-[unintelligible] 

[Speaker - come forward. 

Unknown) 

Meijer Yeah. 

Dowson Well, to be honest, this is what I expect. I expect that at a 

certain stage, other people to uh, let's say spot it, which is 

why we want to disguise as much as possible and keep it, you 

knowKaemingk Exactly, you know -very good, yah. Talk with nobody about 

it, although I think that quite a lot of people are aware of it 

already. 

Dowson We don't want to be pushing up the futures and the 

expiration. I Actually don't want that big [of] a position. 

Let's say I want, let's say I'm gonna do 500 beforehand, my 

ideal, let's say in the gasoline for exampleYeah 

Dowson I think my ideal position is going be around a thousand 

because then I do 500 beforehand and I have 500 to push, I 

get, I, I can definitely push it, I'm very unlikely to go the 

other way. But I'm also not doing it so dramatically that it -

we're talking about it on CNBC and things like this. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. Pg 58 ofl32 

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Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Really. 

Kaemingk Exactly. And Bastiaan is getting all the uh possible 

compliance risks, eh? 

van Kenipen If s Steve from our conversation last week, I think it was on 

Thursday. I mean, I believe that we are only hedging 

ourselves because no manipulation in the -uhh - market 

manipulation. 

Kaemingk Oh, I agree completely with you. I don't consider this as 

being manipulation, but I know all ofthis discussions until 

the last day uh actually uh -.. actually and, uh I am not aware 

of all of the details at this time - for example the London 

Stock exchange is really checking whether you won't sell 

anything more than you actually need to sell. 

Dowson Yeah, exactly that's one thing I talked to Ferhad about 

already. And that's- uh, we already had that discussion 

because what we noticed is actualy, urn and this comes right 

back to the genuine flow part, that what we notice is that, 

let's say we're going to buy things and make it go higher, if 

even, you might expect because this is sort of artificial and 

pushing it up, that it comes back down afterwards. But what 

we've seen is, if anything it tends to continue the same way. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg59 ofl32 

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Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

In other words, there seems to be genuine flow or a buying 

pressure. 

Kaemingk Oh, okay, now let's leave it that way as long as possible. 

van Kempen I, asked, Steven to look into it on an anonymous basis. To, 

uh, just to see if there could be a potential --

Dowson But what you could do then is of course, buy extra during the 

time to get it even higher and then sell them out at the end. 

But we've discussed that this is something that we see is, uh 

potentially could be seen as market manipulation, so we 

decided to uh, to stay away from that. 

Kaemingk Okay, agreed? 

Dowson ·Yep. 

Meijer Okay so go in with 50 and the 250? 

Dowson Well, uh, uh, I'm uh, I think that's uh, yeah that's a good 

suggestion from you. I'm gonna come, also I've got Ferhad 

to write down about if we have opposing things type to what 

you see as a difference in risk and then come with a proposal 

for you. 

[Speaker Yep. 

Unknown] 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 60 of132 

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Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Kaemingk And about what Randal calls the 50 and 250, I'd like to have 

some sort of indication about the total size ofthe market. 

Dowson Yep. OK. I'm just gonna, uh, excuse me for 20 seconds, 

Ferhad' s got about 600 gasolines in his position, I'm just 

gonna make sure he's not hacking them too much ... 

(Laughter) 

van Kempen Is there any way else that we can ask Doug to uh make some 

kind of tool as to better estimate the volume during that time 

period so you can better see what kind of effect that it will 

have - on the market. Is that correct? 

van Kempen Can we ask Doug to make some time tool to see what effect 

this have on the market? 

Dow son Oh, we've, we've, been uh, now we've, but we've been 

running analysis on urn, yeah, because we are trying, umm to 

improve how we make the VW AP as much as possible, 

we've been running analysis on the volumes traded over the, 

yeah, uh the minutes before, the minutes during and how it 

goes, and, urn, and yeah, so we can better approach the 

VW AP apart from anything. But, uhh ... we should ... uh, 

I'm quite sure we should be able to get some of the 
., 

'< 

CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 61 of132 

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· Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Cluistopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk: 

(Amsterdam) 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer . 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

information you want I think. 

Yeah, what I would like to get is like a daily because it's 

quite big, so r d like to get the volume straight as to what we 

traded in the strategy that we followed et cetera 

Uhhuh. 

Because your, your and and.then, you'll all trade the products 

that is crude, the heating oil and everything. I'd like the 

minuie marker to be done over here for the moment, so that I 

can have, get a feel for exactly how it's going. 

Yeah, okay. 

Is that alright? 

Yep. 

Okay, then if we're really done, and of course we'll move 

them again if it's profitable, but that speaks for itself. 

Okay. 

REDACTED 

.·· ... , 
CFTC v. Optiver US, UC, et al. 

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Date: 3/9/fJ7 

Pg62 of132 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

REDACTED 

Meijer 

Dowson 

unknown 

van Kempen? 

unknown 

van Kempen 
( 

CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of l293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Pg 63 ofl32 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Dowson 

unknown 

Dowson 

REDACTED 

KaemJngk 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 64 ofl32 

TranscrJpt of l293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and. Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Meijer 

Dowson 

van Kempen 

REDACTED 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer Yeah, actually, the biggest hurdle for me probably would be . 

who's going to take over his role, so thafs something you 

have to answer 

Dowson Yeah, exactly. 

Meijer I think of· if you have time to think about it or to work on an 

alternative maybe. 

Ok, it's the news on the move of the building 
.·.,, 

CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta/. Pg 65 of 132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

van Kempen I discussed with Ari and Jan Marten how we going transfer 

the feel and look from the Amsterdam office to the Chicago 

office regarding engineering and all the installations and 

check the infrastructure. We are going to have a US engineer 

write up all the plans and have it checked by ADT. 

Meijer Yeah 

van Kempen? Yesterday we interviewed architects and engineers and I'll 

show to Ari which one I would prefer to pick and show him 

the pricing and give him the comments regarding to that. 

The most important of this interviewing of the technical 

consultant who is building the shared rootn and laying out the 

infrastructure; that will be done hopefully by the end of next 

week. With regards to the building, uh, general pricing on the 

lease, I think we're pretty much eh, we've seen the bottom on 

it but right now we're working on the base building work 

letter, how's the building going to deliver the space how 

would they, uh we first wanted them to do a lot of work on it, 

well we still want them to do work on the (inaudible), there's 

of course costs involved with that. We're negotiating that 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, ~~ al. Pg66 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaerningk 

(Amsterdam) 

back and forth and making sure we get all the right access to 

put our infrastructure up there. One of the bigger things that 

we always have out there is Chris and I discussed it with uh, 

whether or not we would want to input the generator into the 

building. I believe that's in flux as well, whether or not 

they're going to do that in Amsterdam. So, we actually 

think, given my experience over here so far, power 

distribution has been good and set by two power plants at 

least. 

Meijer Yeah. 

van Kempen So the actual failures have been minimal. 

Meijer Yeah. 

van Kempen So, having our own generator right now doesn't seem like a 

necessity. Because it also requires - setting up completely 

entire own cooling infrastructure into the building, and then 

powering it yourself. 

Meijer But you already have two power plants, you say. 

van Kempen I meanMeijer We only use one I think, right? 

van Kempen The building is fed by two separate power grids. So if one 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 67 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

fails, the other one picks it up. 

Meijer Also by two different companies then. Or just the company 

runs different grids? 

van Kempen It's pretty much all one company. But it's- it's so if one grid 

fails, then the other one would take over. 

Dowson Let me add one extra thing- Yeah, in that the rewards if you 

stay in when there's a crash should be smaller here as well. 

So the rewards that the thing that you( inaudible if everything 

breaks down in Chicago -

Meijer Yeah. 

Dowson It's umm, you miss a day's trading, or half a day's trading. 

Meijer Yeah. 

Dowson Where as in Amsterdam, if there's a huge power failure in 

Amsterdam, with all the other trading companies being there 

-yeah, you miss a day's trading where nobody else is in the 

market 

Meijer Yeah. 

Dowson It's probably-. a little bit more valuable. 

Meijer Well look, I don't have a problem with it. I mean, I've never 

been a great big (inaudible) fan at all, so, but if you, yeah, if 

the two of you agree it's not necessary, especially with a 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 68 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

double grid then. 

van Kempen No, no, we do put the UPS in there, which would give us like 

45 minutes more on all places on all systems -

[Unknown Only for the (inaudible). 

speaker) 

van Kempen No, for everything. 

Dowson But just not the generator that will keep you open all day if 

something strange happens. 

Meijer Ohokay. 

van Kempen So we'll have back-up power for up to 45 minutes for all 

systems and then, yeah, just get by to be enough to put a 

generator in there but you still have to (inaudible) with the 

building, if we ever want to do it. 

Meijer Ok, anything else on the building? 

van Kempen Yeah, I mean pretty much until receiving all the 

(inaudible) ... we've got a contractor there, I'd prefer to 

(inaudible) a project that I'm- I got the pricing from other 

contractors and I got a (inaudible) down on the price ... he's 

been pretty good in the selection process of the building and 

managing this entire process, so I would like to keep him on 

board, just gotta work with him on his pricing. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg 69 of 132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) · 

Meijer Okay. 

van Kempen Then, it's pretty much it. I mean, we are talking to all three 

buildings. But our primary focus is on (inaudible). 

Meijer Yeah, the Prudential one. 

van Kempen Yeah. 

Meijer Okay. Yeah, if it looks fine also, you should send it over 

here, but we should be able to sign it that really quickly then, 

I think. 

van Kempen Yeah, once we get the actual documents, this Steve of course, 

is going to be highly involved in making sure the language is 

correct. 

Meijer Okay, is- any other issues? 

[unknown] I don't think so really. 

van Kempen Look, I mean, I'm actually happy with what Jan Marten said 

this morning because at certain point it's (inaudible) at one 

project that's being led by two different people. (Inaudible). 

Jan Marten was highly involved as well. 

Miejer Yeah. 

van Kempen (Inaudible) I think this works out. 

[unknown] Okay. 

van Kempen Yeah, I just got some things with [ Ari regarding this 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 70 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher {Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

temporary fix for moving stock over to Fortis. And we get 

positions in a CSV and we offload those other (inaudible) to 

(inaudible). 

[nnknown] Yeah. 

van Kempen Just need to get more details on that if that is probably 

possible. Ari didn't seem negative about trying that, but I 

mean, it is of course, you add an extra point of.failure into 

your entire system. 

Meijer Yeah, and for all- yeah, of course it's been postponed all the 

time, but I hope it will only take another two months or so 

before you finally can move, right? 

van Kempen I hope so too. 

Dowson Fingers crossed. 

van Kempen I mean, I'm actually pretty - because I was getting kind of 

worried that going developments, what I've heard for 

(inaudible)- lot of people going away. Two people in the 

database team. 

van Kempen Yeah. 

Meijer (Inaudible). decent backup. 

van Kempen Well, at least we're looking for it, or it's already available, 

yeah. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 71 of 132 

Transcript of1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Meijer (Inaudible) .. ~ that there was any specific added delay on top 

of-

[Unknown (inaudible) Jan Martenhe keeps on naming the same 

Speaker] (inaudible),let's say. 

Meijer Yeah, that's your (inaudible). 

[Unknown End ofMarch, yeah. 

Speaker] 

Meijer And then, (inaudible) first month, we'll do the Chicago 

(inaudible). 

van Kempen Yeah. Exactly. 

Meijer And i(that's t:eally stillvan Kempen -that's the case, then I wouldn'tMeijer - it's not that much added value in -

van Kempen -and I wouldn't start working on a work-around and have 

people involved again and that for just one month of work of 

value. 

Meijer Yeah. 

Kaemingk And by the way, I don't know whether I'm connected on the 

right spot, but just we spoke with (inaudible - name) and I 

don't know whether it affects you, but his proposal is that, 

when in the morning the import isn't working correctly, we 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg72 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

don't override our position, we just continue working with 

what we had in ORC from the day before, where we left it. 

van Kempen If it works correctly or if it doesn't work correctly? 

Kaemingk? If it doesn't is correct. If we are not going, when the import 

arrives later --

[Unknown] Yup. 

Kaemingk it is not going to follow the procedure during the day. 

van Kempen OK. I agree that's usually what happens. 

Kaemingk But I don't know if it affects you. 

van Kempen If our imports arrives on time I would imagine that we would 

still want to upload it in there. 

Kaemingk Yeah when it arrives [unintelligible] in time. I don't know 

exactly- I can't always see that. Because I see it more as 

operational thing. It would look logical for me -- you know 

let's say-- we're here in Holland when the import isn't 

correctly implemented or whatever before 8 o'clock or uh 

whatever some cut-off time, then we won't import it for that 

day. And we still, they still, check the position but in another 

way and then they just override it the next day. 

van Kempen That makes the most sense. I think, I mean that's what's 

been happening over the last couple weeks when we were 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg73 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

missing imports. 

Kaemingk Yeah, but then when the import wasn't being correct we 

started importing at 12 o'clock during the day. 

van Kempen Uhhh, I don't think that happened on the U.S. side 

Kaemingk All right, okay, okay, so maybe my uhhh remarks are 

(inaudible) in Holland. 

Dowson I have a question. 

Kaemingk Yeah? 

Dowson It's about the request, the emails, uhh, from Yung. 

Kaemingk Yeah? 

Dowson There's something that I just, ummm, I don't know, it's 

something that just doesn't feel right to me but I'm not 

exactly sure what it is. That is, I can understand that you 

wanted to know information about what's going on --

Kaemingk Yeah? 

Dowson I understand that you might want it from a risk perspective, 

either from a risk perspective or from a trading perspective, 

ummm, but how it seems to be planned for you to get it 

seems a little bit strange to me because what's gonna happen 

now is that, ummm, essentially the traders will do a report 

through Yung and then he then will, yeah he's gonna put 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 74 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

that together and forward it to you. 

Kaemingk No, that's not the idea. 

Dowson But, because that's how it was at least --

Kaemingk He has to gather the information himself--

Dowson Yeah but he has to gather the information and he wants the 

traders to email him what happened and then he will tell you 

it which seems to me -- I mean I can just CC you on what 

happened if you want. 

Kaemingk You know how Willco works (inaudible) and then he's 

working around and then he's getting an indication so 

basically that's happening the same. 

Dowson Ummm. 

Kaemingk I wouldn't have some sort of a formal process, what he's 

processing through. I achieve two things. When he thinks at 

least he has to write something down so normally you write 

down what you think is worth mentioning and otherwise 

you'll forget it. And now he's in fact more or less obliged to 

have some sort of highlights from every day. Secondly, is 

what you're reporting to Randal. I want, in fact, risk should, 

let's say, have a separate line. 

Dowson Yeah, that's what I saw as well but the way it was going to 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 75 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) · 

be implemented was essentially --

Kaemingk OK, I think it's a good remark But I think that, uhh uhh, 

Bastiaan, he has to make sure that he can check --

Meijer And Yung is independent actually. 

Kaemingk Yung is independent and can check all the details and so on. 

van Kempen The problem for Yung right now is that he's very busy with, 

uhh, making sure the risk is right and that the positions are 

right and giving like color on what happened in the market is 

kind of difficult for him to do that at the same time. So the 

only way he can give color on the activities is if he asks the 

traders and you get similar -

Kaemingk I'll talk with him. I've been maybe too [inaudible] Maybe 

the Australian, basically what he should mention is let's say, 

the net [inaudible] this and this and this, and these results and 

what he is doing already with a day delay. Australian tech 

makes two reports, and secondly, yeah he can say that we 

have a big risk in this position or in that position or 

everything is within limits and no risky positions. 

van Kempen OK, that would make sense. I mean, the P&Ls he can grab 

from what the traders estimate and what was actually in the 

sheet in the morning and then just do a risk assessment and 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 76 of132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

let you know what the actual violations or the risks ar:e. 

Kaemingk Yeah, but basically --

van Kempen The e-mail that you actually forwarded with it was more 

(inaudible) the market, what happened -vols went down, vols 

went up, if you want him to do that --

Kaemingk No he cannot quote when he has a vague supposition of 

volatility went down so many points, I think that's also worth 

mentioning towards me because I now more or less see 

what's happening, we discussed with Will em as well. In fact 

we have two sides of risk, Will em is really concentrating on 

improving the processing and we have to improve this and 

this and this, but on the other hand I want to have risk 

managers who are on top of the position. In fact, I involved, 

yeah the Dutch word is [Dutch spoken], which is happening 

with the trading and they want to know this position and not 

like next time I want to process it better so that I can see it 

easier. I just want to check the position whether it's correct 

and that people stay within their limits. 

van Kempen I mean that'~, of course, it's undesirable everyone would like 

to go to right now. But now, Yung probably does not have 

enough time in his day to build a reconciliation --
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta/. Pg77 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaerningk 

(Amsterdam) 

Kaemingk Yeah, but I think he must be able to --

Dow son He has the skills yet--

Kaemingk Ifl ask him, he can write it in three minutes. He musn't 

make a too big thing of it, it's not getting to the Dutch 

Central Bank or whatever. It's just for internal reports. 

Secondly, for example, net I mean, liquidity.,or whatever we 

got it irregular or not on time, or - what I hated also a little 

bit was, first, Mark rated it and now it's being handed over to 

on who's working with Bob? 

van Kempen Derek. 

Kaemingk Derek. And nobody looks. I still -- in my opinion, when I do 

the risk assessments, I also follow all the results and look 

better to have strange results in it. And certainly, yeah yeah, 

it's done by Derek. It's not used as a tool to check whether 

there might be something not correct. 

van Kempen I mean, that's not completely- Derek pretty much does the 

processing of the mark to market feeds and comes up with 

the mark to market net liquidity. 

Kaemingk But to me it's still an input to check. 

van Kempen No, traders still input their theoretical [inaudible] although 

they had some problems over the last --
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a/. Pg 78 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Kaemingk Yeah, but I think that should be done and it should also be 

visible for risk, and risk should also check that with, and not 

only risk maybe also the traders and Derek, maybe also you. 

People should compare whether everything is, how do you 

call it, is correct and logical. 

van Kempen I mean, there, Johann, there is a check on that, and even 

Yung can see the check and he can determine whether or not 

that risk is, has there is too much of a closing difference or 

something like that. Over the last couple of weeks, the 

theoretical valuations have been relatively up compared to 

the mark to market, but now things quiet down a little bit I 

think that can be better under control again. But the risk 

definitely a check between what people say they get and what 

actually comes into the (inaudible). 

Kaemingk Yes, and one thing, it looks a little bit - what I've learned in 

and certainly in bigger organizations is, I don't want to have 

all paper loads and being reported, but some key things, even 

when I wouldn't look at it, by forcing him to report it to me, 

it made sure he has looked, or there's something like fraud or 

whatever 

van Kempen But Johann I am not arguing whether he should report it to it 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg79 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

you. I think it's very good if he reports it to you. Ifhe shows 

you the totals per group says this is what they theoretically 

estimated, this (inaudible), it's different because of this and 

this, and whether you look at the description, that's would be 

you, and that's also probably where he can add his skills as a 

risk manager. 

Kaemingk And, where, also, in the longer term I see it also as already 

implementing, let's say, preparing for growth, for example, 

where you have such a Blackberry or whatever as Jelle has, 

you know, you are sitting in- Yeah, because I think the 

distance between Chris and Yung is quite big, you know. __ So; 

when he makes his reports or whatever, and you are with, 

with whoever, with Jelle or for yourself whatever, 

negotiating some sort of deal in California, you still have the 

Blackberry and you can contact Chris what's happening with 

this position. 

van Kempen Unhmm. 

Kaemingk But also in the longer term, I see it also as already 

implementing let's say we are preparing for growth. For 

example, when you have such a Blackberry or whatever as 

(inaudible) has. You know you are sitting in eh- yeah 
· CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 80 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

because I think the distance between Chris and Yung is quite 

big, you know. So when he makes his report or whatever and 

you with whoever (inaudible) yourself or whatever 

negotiating some sort of deal in California, you still have the 

Blackberry and you can contact Chris, what's happening with 

his position. 

Unknown· Uhu 

Kaemingk Because, I I yeah I see when we continue and you are not 

sitting there with 10 or 15 people or 20 people anymore, you 

know you have just two reporting lines and the reporting line 

is from Chris is to Randall. And concerning on risk, it's 

Yung to you and to me, but given you know the time 

differences, (inaudible) as well. I think. yeah when you don't 

agree w:ith it or whatever, its as the situation is now. I am not 

saying its all three years As long as you are also responsible 

for risk in the United States it means also that you have to 

agree with every position more or less. 

Unknown Uhu 

Kaemingk At least, when and also when yeah Chris wants to go above a 

certain position, now, you can't always rely on me. It's first 

of all, he should get your eh eh yeah green light. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg 81 of 132 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaerningk 

(Amsterdam) 

Yep, I mean we yeah, I mean right now it's---

Kaemingk So the whole line, when you report, it's not only what I want 

but also what you want. And, and of course we can change it 

a little bit. And I definitely agree with Chris that when he 

would implement some informal screen where there is some 

sort of a transferent meeting or two to through me without 

any feasibility that he checked actually those figures. 

Unknown Yeah 

Kaemingk It's the same report basically what maybe Chris sends to 

Randal. I don't want that. 

Unknown No, no that makes, makes absolute sense--- Whatever we will 

get it in the right format and then we will be (inaudible) 

evaluate for the next coupie of week and then we can discuss 

(inaudible). 

Dowson I think we all want pretty much the same thing. We want two 

lines. We want independent checks. 

Unknown Yeah 

Dowson Yeah, okay that's good. Hey, lhave one other thing. 

(Inaudible) and I just discussed yesterday. That was about 

ah, ah we were planning to do our half-year talks pretty 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 82 of132 

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Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

soon. I am going on holiday the week after expiration. And, 

so we were planning to do it the week after that, but we were 

also curious about when ah ah people would be hearing their 

bonuses and when we would be discussing that. 

Unknown The last week of March eh everybody gets to hear their 

bonuses so yeah the week after expiration would -be more or 

less when I would be showing you the list I have, of course, 

for all your people. 

Dowson So, it's another postponed holiday for me. 

Unknown Yah, no (inaudible) we can probably Monday or Tuesday 

(inaudible). Maybe I have something to show you early next 

week. 

Kaemingk · To be more precise, yeah, I want to discuss some issues with 

(inaudible) and then Randal can discuss everything with you. 

Okay? 

Dowson Randal, just so you know, I've not booked a holiday yet. I 

was just planning to visit a friend. But, I've not booked 

anything yet. So if you---

Unknown Yeah, but (inaudible) the idea. Doesn't have to take too long. 

You got a proposal for your (inaudible.) You see the entire 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 83 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

list make you can make some adjustments or have questions 

and I do the same with the others. 

Dowson Okay 

Unknown And yeah before yeah next week probably, eh the five of you 

get your thing. So then that is out of the way. You know 

your own thing. You can look, look to the others. 

Dowson Okay 

Unknown Hey Mr. partners over here. Do you want to be involved 

with the half-year talks with them? 

Unknown Half-year talks? It's March. 

Unknown End of the year talks. 

Unknown (Laughing) Urn- yeah the partner's end of the year, I do with 

Johan as well. 

Dow son Basically, the last time we spoke to everyone was while you 

were here of course. 

Kaemingk Ye~, well I wouldn't mind or actually like to. Yeah, have a 

video conference with the two of you and the partner on that 

end and Johan and me listening in. 

Dowson Okay. 

Unknown So, if you can schedule it (inaudible) in with Iris. Because 

it's only four anyway, right? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 84 ofl32 

Transcript of 1293QN.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Netherlands to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/9/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Christopher (Chicago); Randal Meijer, Jan Marten Visser and Johann Kaemingk 

(Amsterdam) 

Dowson If you include Marcel, Marcel, Richard (inaudible) 

Unknown Richard is not here. 

Dowson No? 

Unknown (inaudible) 

Unknown Doesn't matter. Just schedule it (inaudible) for yeah for 

whenever there is room. 

Dowson Yeah, All right. 

Unknown Yeah. And (inaudible) one thing, the new limits. You tell to 

(inaudible) okay? 

Dowson I will let (inaudible) do it. 

Unknown Okay Yeah, of course, he's risky (laughter 

Dowson I will let you know how it goes today. 

Yeah, please do. 

Unknown Bye, Bye 

Unknown Bye 

END 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg 85 ofl32 

Transcript of 12B220.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Amsterdam to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/14/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson (Chicago); Randal Meijer (Amsterdam) 

Receptionist: Optiver. This is Allison. 

Meijer Hi Allison, Randal Speaking. 

Receptionist: Hi! 

Meijer ·Hi, can I talk to Chris Dowson please. 

Receptionist: Sure, let me find him for you. 

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yah, thanks. 

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Chris Speaking. 

Hey Chris, Randal. 

Hi Randal. 

Hi, good morning. I don't know quite what your positions were. How is 

it going? 

Umm, quite what the positions were? Which ones? 

No, I mean in gammas and thetas etc. 

Oh, okay Yeah, urn, we still have a long skew position. That's our main 

position, lets say. 

okay 

And it's nowhere near as big as it was before. We have a slope- we had 

a slope risk of something like 40,000 I believe. 

okay 

So, urn, we reduced it a lot, from you know, the first week. And we had 

spreads against each other in Russell and NASDAQ which were pretty 

ugly actually. That's mainly in Aprils and it's about Russell two points 

over and we had about think 150,000 vegas against each other. 

okay, but is it losing money now, or is itUrn, yeah today its, urn, not so much -not so bad, but yesterday it was 

pretty ugly, lets say. 

In the end I urged the people to re-buy gammas because I ... I am not 
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sure whether its going to work, but it was only up by half a point or one 

pointOh, it all got hammeredVery close to the end, yeah. And I think the trade of it is just too good, I 

mean. It might be a snowball thing. And with the mortgages and the the 

housing in America, maybe nothing happens, but I think that the odds 

are just too good, let's say. 

This has actually gone pretty ugly for us today, to be honest with you. 

This morning when we opened because the slopes in Europe are so 

much higher than over here, the European VOLs and because they had 

been bid up loads before _we opened- they were really higher than ours. 

So we talked to Paul, but he was a little bit short and we bought some 

and both - it really worked I think. Paul must have made decent money 

on it because his really got hammered. 

Well I think that Paul lost some money because he is using the wrong 

spreadyeah, but that specific tradeyeah, it might have made money yeah- (chuckling) 

No, but that specific trade after about 20 Minutes was really good. It 

cost us quite a bit here, and then we talked about it - that we were going 

to no longer have it against him, and so we are a bit hacked out of some 

of that premium. And uhIt' s gone up again. 

It went down as we were hacking- Ugly. And then we would get short 

as it comes back up. So it has been a pretty- its not been an exciting day 

today soyeah, okay, it's not really loss making 

No, no, we should be in the plus. I am pretty sure of that. 
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okay my message is just that we've got enough already. They were quite 

aggressive in the end. So I think we (inaudible) 800,000 (inaudible) 

That is quite a lot yeah. (Laughter) 

I don't mind for the last two days to pay four or five hundred a day. I 

don't mind, but they uh, I think we topped that. 

That is okay- they get a little excited (laughter) 

It is a bit better because we were short and had a risk on the downside, 

which is ·just normal. 

No, I definitely don't want to -

Yeah, so you can spread - I would be on the long side for you as well, 

but at least we have some 

Yeah, I know that you have a lot so I can. 

You can relax, but don't go short again or anything. 

No- okay 

Yeah? 

. And urn for the other things, yeah, the uhm RBOBs we have a 

reasonable size position now, we have 1400 long, something like that. 

okay, yeah. 

So, uhm, Ferhad has been desperate to get that he can sell some RBOBs 

(laughter) our position is just killing us 

(laughter) 

and the TASes (inaudible) or positions is just killing us and uhm, that's 

about all is exciting. We're also trying to do some uhm, sell some 

crudes against it let's sayYeah 

So, we can have it, again like I said to you, so we doing two things in 

opposite directions and we try to push the spread more than just the 

market. 
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Yeah, exactly. 

And in which case, uhm, if we, depending on how big the RBOB 

position is, but let's say we have 3000 RBOB's or somethingYeah 

Then I will, we talked about the 50 million, if it's set beforehand.-

Yeah 

But I think we can do, yeah, 50 million just on their own, and 50 against 

the crudes beforehand . 

The RBOB's are the heating oils eh? 

The RBOB's is the gasoline. 

Oh, the gasoline, the gasoline and the crudes are uh- paying pretty well 

86% or something. 

But it doesn't make sense actually to have then an opposite position in 

things that are correlated. 

Urn, well you're actually, the way I see it is this, you just it's urn 

potentially less profitable. 

Yah. 

Certainly, urn but that you could argue about but, it is certainly less 

risky; because if you look at it like this ok, urn if you do them both in the 

same direction, you just got more power essentially. 

Yah, exactly because if you look at the example more simple that you 

have a hundred percent let's say ah for the same product for just two 

months. 

Yeah. 

I mean, yeah of course the role is just yeah, you build your own urn 

resistance by doing it against each other of course. 

That's right. 

But. 
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So that's exactly correct. And that's why you don't want the time spread 

against each other actually- that's a bit nasty. 

Yeah. 

ButIf we get to a position, if we have 3,000 RBOBs. 

Yeah. 

Yeah, urn, 3 and a Yz thousand I believe is around about the 350 million. 

Yeah. 

You're just massive then, you're really big. So. 

Yeah. 

Yol1 don't need urn all of that in order to push it if you had a thousand 

you can really bully it around. 

Yeah, ok but you can bully around more with more, I meanYeah, exactly, eh but so the point is that urn what we thought about is 

what we think the risk is the ones you do before, of course. 

Yeah, I think the biggest. 

Yeah, urn but also if you let's say something bizarre happens and all our 

machines fall down and we can't even call brokers or something like 

this. 

(chuckles) Yeah. 

If we have two positions that are delta to neutral against each other, 

yeah. 

Yeah, get rich not being able to trade, I urn don't disagree there. 

But. 

But of course with a high correlation a lot of resistance comes from the 

crude. 

But you could what you can do of course, is urn let's say I have 3 

thousand crudes to do. 
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Yeah. 

Instead of doing my 50 million beforehand, I do a hundred million and 

so lets say urn. What you could say is the profit from d<?ing it twice is 

big beforehand. 

Yeah. 

Can be bigger than the amount of resistance you receive by having 

something opposite. 

Yeah, possibly of course you don't know you need to know more about 

the resistance. 

Exactly, exactly. That's basically the situation. I mean of course urn 

Ferhad prefers to have the opposite position. (chuckles) 

Yeah, Yeah. I might, well I would like to know let's say if you are on 

the same side then because, yeah you can take away a bit of your own 

resistance at least as how I like to look at it. 

I told that to Ferhad. There was one way we had a full house you know 

we had to buy. 

Yeah, yeah exactly. 

We had to buy in crude, heating oil and gasoline, and I really liked it, 

but Ferhad likes it, the opposing position 

Yeah, how was the day? How did it go? 

Yeah, then we made a load then we made 200 or something. 

Yeah, because the crude is - so add the crude and the Brent are the big 

ones, they provide so much resistance also in the other products. I can 

assume that I would like to, yeah if I'm able to take some away there as 

well. 

But what? I have to say when we had the thousand, when we had the 

thousand RBOBs against a thousand or I think it is 1200 against 1200. 

The RBOBs against the HOs. 
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Yeah. 

We also made 200 there. 

Well then you had opposite procedure. 

Yeah. 

Yeah, ok so it's not clear cut yet. 

So, I don't swear for it yet and what you have to do urn you just. 

Yeah. 

Basically you just take in more of a gamble if you have done the same 

way as each other. Alright so the thing the thing that's the deciding 

factor is really how powerful are we. 

Yeah, but I agree that the definitely will be more of a gamble but of 

course it will be relied in the entire idea relied on the fact or the 

assumption that we can move the market 

Yea it's a bit-- but what I'm sure of is we can move the gasoline 

market. Whether we can move the complex -

Yea. 

That, I'm not sure of. 

Yea, well with - yea, yea you said you need to try. 

Exactly so we need to try so when we have a good opportunity for it 

then uh we should definitely try. But urn what, what I would say is if 

you have a big gasoline against big oil. I'll be shocked if we don't make 

any money. 

Uh. 

If we don't make a load. Whereas if we have big and big, I still expect 

us to make a killing. 

Yeah. 

But I would be - lets put it this way. I would be more willing to 

manufacture a position opposite to each other. So trade -
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ah. 

Trade it even to get it opposite each other. Urn, rather than trade it even 

to get them in the same direction but. 

Ah, ah. I don't know yet. I haven't seen enough to really judge in the. 

But that's, it really comes from the crude, I'm still just a little bit 

cautious of the crude but urn. 

A little bit cautious. But the Brent. Yeah, well I don't give it a ok in the 

end they did not make much I believe, because I think they made 38 

again on the 38000 or 2400. But they had 300 rolls left because 300 

came from the agent that went almost the same against them so. 

Oh. 

But, again they could move it with the. 

Yah. They urn, the Brents, we're really trying get a big position now. 

Ok. 

Urn one because this Brent-WTI spread it would be nice to push that in 

our favor. 

Yeah. 

And urn and secondly because the actual volume trading there today is 

nothing. So if we can have a thousand there, we're already pretty big, 

so. 

Yeah. 

I think we got about 800 there at the moment in the Brent position, so. 

okay. 

Alright, I'll speak to Marcel and make sure he doesn't sell anything. 

Just stay on the long side if anything. 

The other thing, we traded, I traded Google for about 40 minutes this 

morning with Lee. 

You wrote how interesting it is. 
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I still think it's interesting. We made a couple of thousand in the period 

like 9:30 tilllO:OO or something like this. I still see there being money 

there, soI thought he is staying for four weeks at least in Amsterdam, right? 

Yeah, I spoke to him yesterday and I agree that it is not worthwhile 

coming over here for two and a half weeks and then going back for two 

and a half for something like this. 

And then we run the risk of them making it difficult for us. 

So hopefully we have the NASDAQ (inaudible), by the time he gets 

back. 

Yeah, I told him as well, and he is a bit happy as well. But hopefully 

(inaudible) 

And you saw my comments from the bonuses? 

Yeah, but there is nothing new of course. It was more the comment of 

Hans that actually your own and Bastiaan should at least be the same. 

But I asked Ari to give me another benchmark on the sales. 

But the thing is, there a couple of things I was thinking: the first one is 

that they just don't have very much risk- that is what I said to you about 

yesterday, and so if you compare that to a broker, the guys that are 

sitting in house are really not carrying that much risk with them 

basically. 

I have two questions. What is that for (inaudible)- what is the risk for 

cross traders for example? And secondly, what exactly is the risk of a 

broker? 

There are a couple ofthings, if he doesn't perform as a salesman he 

won't get any customers and therefore won't get any commission. And 

when he makes a mistake, he has to often pay for it out of his 

commission as welL 
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Yeah, well that can still be introduced in our scheme. 

And the other thing I was thinking about was realistically how much 

money do we make from prop trading. And, I have been thinking about 

it, I know some people - when I talked to Richard for example he will 

sell to you not much above zero for the sixth floor. I can't say anything 

about that but from the 5th floor I definitely see we make money on it. 

My guess would be something on the order of 10 million or around this, 

maybe on the high side for last year. Five to ten million, something like 

this. I am just thinking about the highest amounts that they get, you 

know so that the top of their level - if you are looking at a team of 10 

sales people and the top level is 400,000-500,000 it starts to get 

expensive. When they all get some experience -

I need to get more figures but I heard it from Y enalbo. You have been 

talking to Y enalbo because you both use the exact same argument. 

Well I have not been talking to Y enalbo recently but I have been talking 

to Yenalbo six months ago about this subject. 

Well, it was just a bit funny, you mentioned the risk thing ... and I went 

through the list with him, and the first thing he said, "Yeah .. . 

(inaudible)." 

Yeah, we we definitely talked about it I think, while I was in Amsterdam 

still. And he complained about it while he was here, but I didn't want to 

talk about itthen. I just told him I didn't want them particularly in 

America. But yeah I think it's just what do they do 

But yeah ummm a question for you I mean, at least remarks or Richard's 

remarks about the (inaudible) above zero then why does he play in the 

props? I mean -

He feels pressured to by Hans, he tells me. 

Yeah. 

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That's literally is what- He thinks that it's not viable he thinks in some 

of the stocks it is, but in some of the smaller ones that we just to try and 

get our name better it costs quite some money. 

In some occasions, I think Hans can definitely do some trades let's say 

at even money or so. Otherwise people will seem to think he'll be 

throwing money away. We definitely have quite some examples if we 

just make plenty sure he (inaudible) trade passing by. 

Yeah. 

And I don't expect the traders, at least not the way I know them the 

traders are just not going to give away money. Just so much against their 

beliefs, let's say. 

Yeah I think they're at least when I was talking to Richard about it when 

he was because I was asking him about the prop over here and whether 

he really wanted to put some effort into it and things like this. 

Yeah. 

And, urn the thing that he had most problems with was the smaller 

stocks where we're doing prop trades that are bigger than the open 

interest and as big as the volume traded on the day. 

Yeah. 

And that they look nice on the day, but nine times out often they don't 

end up being nice uhh but yeah I really have no idea about it, because I 

only see the prop trading on the fifth floor, I think it's reasonable, 

profitable activity 

Yeah, I'm reasonable I think it will definitely add to the failure ofthe 

company 

Yeah. 

.And of course we have to and that's of course we are working with you, 
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how much added value there is in (inaudible) and what percentages of 

them are together but either you want them or you don't want them 

I mean of course the other thing is as well if you have the model which 

we talked about with (inaudible) where she is really taking more 

responsibility and being closer to the traders and even getting to the 

point were she makes some decisions then the discussion is just over of 

course, right? 

I think less ah 

Because then none of the arguments that I have said hold anymore, 

right? 

ah no two you mentioned are taken away 

yeahand hopefully the four of mine still stands 

(chuckles) but ah okay 

{chuckles) but uh at least we- I've got a benchmark because as of course 

our strongest point I mean that this (inaudible) ifl want them and I 

definitely want them I don't we can still argue whether traders can do it 

but I don't believe that and that's also failure that's also in addition a 

we just make 15 or 20 million more in the end 

Yeah 

and I don't understand the process 

(chuckles) I think no, the first is of course people seeing guys who have 

a real easy job who sit on the internet a lot of the day 

Yeah but that's not true I mean ifl see what they do all day its just a bit 

of a character flaw of traders I mean what they do themselves they are 

brilliantYeahand what sales people do what IT see people do yeah shouldn't be so 
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hard (inaudible) 

Yeah exactly now everybody's everybody's doing the hardest job in the 

country that's true (laughs) 

(laughs) it's a bit dumb or so I am sure IT people but it's also one way 

traffic because I am sure IT people I sometimes see traders and think I 

cando that 

Yeah 

Yeah and maybe they're right as well, but it's just- yeah 

Yeah from my perspective I definitely don't have that with the IT people 

it seems that if we have a good IT person he's worth way more than we 

are paying him 

yeah but that's also not I mean but do you agree actually with policy that 

the that the market is leading -

urn-

-that he is worth more but yet the market doesn't say so 

no exactly but then the question is of course where do you what do you 

compare to and you we of course we compare and our sales people to a 

brokerno no no no not just a broker also commercial and sales functions within 

a bank. I find brokers only because I don't find them in the exact same 

position or so so it's not just that. We definitely also want sales and 

investment bankers and I don't know commercial positions within banks 

Yeah but I what I was going to say is you could also compare them to a 

sales person who is selling just anything, no? paperclips or telephones 

or something like this they urn that's because with the IT that's often 

what you look at as well you look at a bit something that's a bit broader 

yeah 

and I think it's the same as anything else as soon as you mention finance 
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finance in it you put sort of a premium on a -on what people are going to 

get paid, right 

well you don't want to but yeah it happens I think yeah 

so that's that's also something to think about when you're 

benchmarking the sort of the skills required for thejob probably you 

have some people doing yeah do.ing very menial telephone work that are 

you know getting 5 euros an hour I think to cold call people that are that 

have more experience than they're all the right skills for the job 

I don't think so. I think the skills they need are different from those but 

yeah that's of course the basic of the difference of opinion 

yes 

the skill set needed or the unity of the uniqueness of that skill set 

yes I mean if definitely if they can understand the trading and they can 

and they can add extra value in that way then they definitely become 

more valuable but ah I don't see that in huge quantities in the current 

group at the moment at least I see it on occasions and then if you if you 

started to see that regularly you would definitely I don't know whether 

that's what you want but 

the weight it's also skewed to the way you round up things I think that's 

also where we disagree I think the Simon way of doing I also just is 

more failure in the long-term 

yeah but what do you mean the Simon way of doing things though? 

Well just the more let's say the maybe its more skewed at least 

compared to the (inaudible) to the opposite party 

oh 

as whereas (inaudible) is more or learned to be more reacting on the 

trader's behalfDowson: - oh-
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At least for the trade at hand ... and I think Simon builds niore of a 

relationship, yeah, that doesn't pay off in the trade at hand, but uh, 

possibly in the future 

YeahThat's very little- yah- feeling or reward for uh, let's say, uh, well 

yourself or people in the pit 

Yeah, uh, the problem I have with it is if my uh- if I didn't quote very 

well, I still wouldn't do any trades no matter how nice things for being 

sold (chuckling). The uh, the thing that I see making the most difference 

to uh the number of trades we doYeah 

Is just - yeah, how much urn - yeah, myself enhance now force the 

traders to just stick on their quotes and uh try and do as much as 

possible. 

Yeah. 

I really see that made- I've not seen one sort of development where I 

re-thought- urn, I'm excluding the things that's going around and 

searching for people because I definitely think that's valuable and that's 

uh that's adding- adding money to us. But in the, in the bit of how 

friendly or uh how much side of the broker you take- yeahYeah, but it's we're all- yeah, (inaudible) but the acquisition part you 

sort of can't see- . 

Yeah 

But there is- yet and so- uh limited because it's not- I mean, yeah, see 

if you can bring somebody in because she's a girl and smiles friendly 

and pretty quickly already it has to be transferred to the guys on the 

phone who actually maintain the relationship- that's the hard part- and 

yah, believing that that is easy or even worse, traders can do that it's just 
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a misconception -

Uh 

(chuckling) It's got the same discussions all overyeah exactly.- I think that- it's not, it's not going to easily find a 

conclusion 

No 

I uh, yeah, I've quite resigned to it so uh, don't worry about it, you know 

what's I'm like, I come back every three months, three months or 

something like that. - (chuckles) 

Probably. every year but uh-

(still chuckling) yeah, exactly. But now that I'm further away, maybe 

I'll slow down a little bit. 

But yah- yah- but even- yah, I think, yah, because of your beliefs, and 

your, or Johann being able to convince you. But I do think that the cross 

trading works better when you're not around. 

Wowyeah, and uh because of course we need to get some traders to uhbecause uh, they uh you still live there let's say in their mindsYeah 

So what I think it works better without you. 

Yeah, I'm not surprised about .that. But I also expected it to be going 

better. I mean, we have uhy ah and of course there are more people that have stock traded and uh 

there was a good, definitely a very good addition so $ and it came from 

you, so uh I know thatWe just have extra resources for now, since I, uh since I left that's uh, -

YahThat's uh-
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 101 ofl32 

Transcript of 12B220.wav 

Description: Call from Optiver, Amsterdam to Optiver, Chicago 

Date: 3/14/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson (Chicago); Randal Meijer (Amsterdam) 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

Dowson: 

Meijer: 

END 

yah, and uh Marlaine really pushed 

Yah exactly. That's uh - so I did expect the cross trading to improve, 

and uh in the last six months or somethingYeah-(inaudible)- okay, anyway, I gotta get a benchmarkI'm, I'm gonna see what our position is and then uh do what our 

positions have gone up-

- Yeah see about our positions and make sure we have profits aroundYeah-no worries. 

(chuckling) okay- talk to you latertalk to you laterokay. bye. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg 102 of132 

Transcript of 12BM2P.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/16/07 · 

Parties: Christopher Dowson (Chicago); Randal Meijer (Amsterdam) 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dow son 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

(Dutch) 

Hi Randal, it's Chris. 

Hi, good. it's midday afternoon. 

Afternoon? Yeah. 

What's up? 

I thought you might want your Friday evening interrupted. 

(Laughter) No worries. 

I'll write e-mails with bad news. But urn, we made, uh, 660 in the 

TASes. 

660 yeah? Finally it's paying off. 

Exactly. 

The real size. (Laughter) What did you do? 

Well, basically we were long RBOBs on the day, quite a bit 

Yeah, yeah. 

We had, like. We were long like 1800 TASes, or something like this. 

Ferhad had sold some Heating Oil TASes against it. 

Yeah. 

And urn, yeah, because of our oil spread position in between the two 

indices, which sold at even at like 600 or something on the ICE. 

OK. 

And urn, so we sat there and we, we were --just not a lot was going on 

and we were talking about things and I was complaining about the 

Heating Oil one that I thought -- I didn't like the size of it and I thought 

it was nasty and things like this 

Yeah. 

and, urn, so we talked about it a bit and we decided, OK let's just whack 

the oil. So we sold the even bid in the oil for like 2 and half thousand 

and urn we scratched out of our -
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 103 of 132 

Transcript of 12BM2P.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/16/07 · 

Parties: Christopher Dowson (Chicago); Randal Meijer (Amsterdam) 

Meijer 

Dow son 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Yeah, by the oil-the crude then? 

Yeah the crude oil yeah, and we scratched out of our heating oil 

position. So we were basically in the end we were short like uh 4000. 

We had to buy 4000 oils, crudes, and we had to buy 2200 uh RBOBs. 

Yeah so you had like a double whopper. 

Yeah exactly. The Brent, we had a position opposite it, so we had to sell 

1200 Brents. So, that was basically our only 3 positions. And what we 

saw was yeah just how I told you it before. I basically, I think our 

counterparty- our counterparty- our competitor, I think today has lost 

a really really a lot of money. Because there was, when, after he sold all 

his bids at even and just offered over, there's really big down ticks in the 

oil the whole complex went down and actually afterwards we thought it 

was like there was some news or something. So he must have bought 

really a lot of uh crudes on the day - in the TASs - sold them all out 

beforehand so there's a big spike down and then at sort of26, 27 past we 

started buying and basically bought it all the way back up and more. 

OK, so he was really screwed then. 

So I pretty much think he does all his futures peforehand, or a big chunk 

of them anyway. 

And then just hopes it just keeps him trading there and uh. 

Exactly, and just says well, if it stays at this level and nothing really 

goes on, normally he'll make a load from it of course. 

Meijer Yes. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 104 of132 

Transcript of 12BM2P. wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/16/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson (Chicago); Randal Meijer (Amsterdam) 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Especially if we've got the same side as him and we're pushing it in the 

way for him. It's like uh, Nick was doing, we do all the work and he 

just, yeah. But he does it massively before hand so I'm sure in the past 

he's made like huge money from it. 

Yeah, Ok, the crudes he's a counterparty but he's not so much in the 

heating oil and the others. 

No we don't really see him in the others. You see-. 

That's a bit funny because if you really make money from it, the first 

thing to do is to see are there any more, so it is a bit funny of course. 

That's what I thought as well. We may be wrong about that guy getting 

killed, but I think there's a good chance of it. But for us it just went 

really nicely. 

Oh, yeah of course. But how much did you do then beforehand, before 

you brought it up. 

Urn, I did the crudes, and I did about 800 of my 4000 beforehand. 

So 40% uh -.(inaudible) 

Yeah, maybe even a bit less than 800, but uh. 

That's quite nice. 

That's pretty good. 

(Laughter) 

Yeah so the total this week is like $1.2 million from the TASes. 

And we're now on like $2million or so -

Yeah, exactly. That's really good. So what I was going to say was 

basically, you can get the positions you want to actually. If you leave it 

till sort of 12:00 and then start trying to get positions it's sort of, often 

you don't always get some nice ones and you end up with a bit inbetween positions, but if you're sort of more aggressive, if you just 

picked a random side and so lets say put an even bid in or an even offer 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 105 ofl32 

Transcript of 12BM2P. wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/16/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson (Chicago); Randal Meijer (Amsterdam) 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

on a given day for a couple of thousand, there's a good chance if you 

doing a lot then. Urn, so what I would say is, if a couple of, if everyday 

next week you could give Ferhad a call and make sure he doesn't- sort 

of try to force him to get, to build up some positions, I think it will be 

worthwhile. 

Yeah, of course if it's really a counterparty, a marketmaker, then it's a 

bit still dangerous. 

Yeah exactly, especially with the crudes, what we did today, I really 

don't think it's a smart thing to do everyday because you will become 

predictable. 

Yeah, definitely. 

You definitely want to mix it around a little bit and not have -- not do 

that all the time. Basically the reason we did it in the crude today was 

because hardly any trades had happened and we thought, well it's better 

to have it the same side because we had such a big RBOB position. 

Yeah, exactly so. you just make it a bit more powerful for either one. 

Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so I'm still cautious about the crude, although 

I think its -- the fact that is -- we set it for, on the Friday before the 

weekend and with it also close to expiration is sort of the nicest situation 

to do it in. So, yeah if you could give Ferhad a call each day and just 

sort of-. 

I'll ask him what his plans are. 

Yeah exactly. 

Yeah, of course, when no body's around pushing him might be a bit 

difficult 

Yeah, otherwise we'll be back to scalping for 10 lots. (Laughter) 

Yeah exactly, making one halfthousand. (Laughter) 

Yeah, exactly. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg106ofl32 

Transcript of 12BM2P.wav 

Description: Call from Christopher Dowson to Randal Meijer 

Date: 3/16/07 

Parties: Christopher Dowson (Chicago); Randal Meijer (Amsterdam) 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Alright, for the rest, was slower probably. 

For the rest? 

Meijer Yeah, Yeah. 

Dowson Oh, the rest of the floor? Urn, yeah, exactly. The NC is next to nothing. I 

think Arwin has a bit of a loss from his; on his premium against. 

END 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dow son 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Meijer 

Dowson 

Oh, ok. 

But urn, its virtually, virtually nothing actually. 

Ok, well luckily we've got this. 

Yeah, exactly it keeps you uh it keeps you. 

Open eyes. 

It gives you a bit of excitement once a day. So. 

Yeah, exactly. For five minutes a day. 

Yeah, exactly. 

Quite efficient, having to do with trading this product. 

No, exactly, yeah 

We can make them do the normal trading swap and then for a couple 

minutes you need them. 

Yeah, that's what we had, we taught James how to do it and we taught 

Rishad as well and we're starting to show Lee as well so. 

Ok. 

Alright, well have a good weekend. 

Have a good day. 

Thank you very much. 

Talk to you next week. Bye. 

Bye. 

.~: . 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 12BXQ2.wav 

Description: Call between Bastiaan van Kempen and several Optiver employees 

Date: 3/19/07 

Pg 107 ofl32 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen; Yung Tang; Ferhad Mekic; Marcel Klooss; Michel van der Lubbe; Dave Willerman 

Tang Hello, Yung Tang speaking 

van Kempen HeyYung, it's Bastiaan. 

(conversation in Dutch for several minutes) 

Mekic Hello? 

van Kempen Hey. 

Mekic Hi, how's it going? 

van Kempen It's good. How are you doing? 

Mekic It's good. Are you in Dubai or something? 

van Kempen No (chuckles). I'm in Phoenix. 

Mekic Nice. That's also nice. Pretty warm? 

van Kempen It's pretty warm. It's like a hundred degrees over here. It's like 

95 (chuckles). 

Mekic Okay. It's a shame (chuckles). 

van Kempen It's a shame. It's 32 over there? 

Mekic Yeah, it's not too warm. It get's cold at the end ofthe day as 

well. 

van Kempen: Is everything working for you today? 

Mekic: Yeah, it was fine, I think it should have been better, I think. We 

made 240. We had 2200 front month Crudes [oil contract]. And 

so, uh, it's expiration tomorrow so we had a fair amount of 

influence. 

van Kempen: Alright. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, eta!. Pg 108 ofl32 

Transcript of 12BXQ2.wav 

Description: Call between Bastiaan van Kempen and several Optiver employees 

Date: 3/19/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen; Yung Tang; Ferhad Mekic; Marcel Klooss; Michel van der Lubbe; Dave Willerman 

Mek.ic: So, we managed to hedge our TASes off at 10 ticks below; so 

that made, 220, like Mark did those. I did the Heating Oils 

[contracts] and we had almost 800. That should be enough 

influence. Like, so we did like 25% beforehand, I did. But then 

it just didn't tick down, it actually ticked up a bit (chuckles) in 

the VW AP. So, I had a similar thing on Friday. Like the tick 

happens and then the VW AP nothing happens because there are 

counterparties. 

So, it's either people front-running us in the future or people 

trading the TASes the opposite direction and we trade against 

them in the VW AP. So tomorrow we're going to try to do all the 

T ASes, like at 2- 2 and a half thousand -

Mekic: -2 and half thousand tick-wise even bid at 1 over, just like in the 

Crudes. 

van Kempen: Yep. 

Mekic: So, and then- So then I think we should almost do everything. 

And then, like, toward the end of the day just try and maintain 

the tight market. 

van Kempen: Yeah and then you probably don't~. Make sure you don't do too 

much beforehand - probably not more than 25%. 

Mekic: Oh, no for sure not. We, we'revan Kempen: 20% 

Mek.ic: I only did 25 because I had a second month position, I'm 

including them together. 

van Kempen: Yep. 

Mekic: And then in the RBOB we didn't do enough in the first minute. 

van Kempen Who was handling that? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et aL Pg 109 of 132 

Transcript of 12BXQ2.wav 

Description: Call between Bastiaan van Kempen and several Optiver employees 

Date: 3/19/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen; Yung Tang; Ferhad Mekic; Marcel Klooss; Michel van der Lubbe; Dave Willerman 

Mekic: James had big downticks so he could hardly get the future, and 

so like a tick down at 40 ticks in 20 seconds or something. So 

we'll just have to stay on schedule. And Don did 100 Brents 

[contracts] and he beat it by a tick; so he did well. So 240 in 

total. 

van Kempen: And what's Craig doing in total? 

Mekic: That we're down 50 on position or something. So, good 

scalping. Good scalping (chuckles). Fayid, he looks alright. I 

mean the Brent WTI [contract] sorta thing made money today, 

and the Crush lost some, but we scalped reasonably well and we 

rolled some of that. It's alright. The crack is at 28% in the second 

month and 38% in the first month, so it's pretty big upticks. The 

main loser was the whole RBOB spread, but that seemed to scalp 

pretty well and we already have half-our position in the second 

month, so that's not too bad. The TASes are obviously the main 

. . wmneragam. 

van Kempen: Fair enough but you should milk it for right now, as much as you 

can, because you never know how long this thing is going to last. 

Mekic: Eventually, we should -. I think the Crudes are the most 

advanced markets and that's where we made most of our money 

anyway (chuckles). How much can the other ones. develop? I 

think at some point we'll be hammering in all three of them. We 

need a good hammer because we need to know what we do no 

without worrying about other people. I think if we do well on 

the crudes I don't see why the products shouldn't remain good 

for a while, at least. 

van Kempen: I mean it's good the way it's running. 

Mekic You're not unhappy (chuckles)? 

... , 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 12BXQ2.wav 

Description: Call between Bastiaan van Kempen and several Optiver employees 

Date: 3/19/07 

Pg 110 ofl32 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen; Yung Tang; Ferhad Mekic; Marcel Klooss; Michel van der Lubbe; Dave Willerman 

van Kempen No, I'm not unhappy. 

Mekic: I think it's like 2.4 or something, year to date. I think it was like 

llast week. 

van Kempen: What was it on Friday? 

Mekic: 650. 

van Kempen: Ok, it goes pretty quick now. Do you know where the CME and 

CBOT are trading? 

Mekic: I could check it for you. I'll have to leave the phone for a 

second. 

van Kempen: Sure. 

[Pause] 

Mekic: Hello. The BOT is 196.70 the other one is 528.70. 

van Kempen: 528.70 and 196.70, ok. Thanks a lot. 

Mekic: That's alright. 

van Kempen: Could you pass me on to Marcel: For one second? 

Mekic: Do you know the extension? 

van Kempen: I think it's 61. 

Mekic: Ok, I'll transfer you. You're in tomorrow? 

van Kempen: I'll see you tomorrow. I'll be in about probably like 12 o'clock. 

Mekic: Oh, okay. Because we want to transfer the positions to London 

like tomorrow or the day after. 

van Kempen: You want to do that already? 

Mekic: Yeah, we'll do it on Wednesday, actually. 

van Kempen: We don't have everything in place, I think. 

Mekic: No? 

van Kempen: No. 

Mekic: Oh, okay, well, we'll do that Wednesday. 

van Kempen: I'll have to talk to Yella [phonetic] about this. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 12BXQ2.wav 

Description: Call between Bastiaan van Kempen and several Optiver employees 

Date: 3/19/07 

Pg Ill of132 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen; Yung Tang; Ferhad Mekic; Marcel Klooss; Michel van der Lubbe; Dave Willerman 

Mekic: 'Cause we don't have an expiration for another 10 days and all 

this margining stuff is really annoying. 

van Kempen: Ok, that's fine, but I'd rather have the fee schedule with our 

Mekic: 

name on it in my hands before I start moving more business 

there. 

Ok, yeah, that makes sense. So we'll talk about it I guess 

tomorrow Wednesday. 

van Kempen Ok, we'll talk about it tomorrow. 

Mekic Ok, alright, have a good flight. 

van Kempen Thanks, bye. 

Mekic Bye. 

[Pause] 

[Telephone rings] 

Lee This is Lee, Optiver. 

van Kempen Hi Lee, it's Bastiaan. Is Marcel there? 

Lee Ah, yeah, could you hold on? [To Marcel] Marcel, it's Bastiaan. 

Marcel Hi, Bas. 

van Kempen Hey. [Conversation in Dutch] 

van Kempen Ok. [Pause] 

[Telephone rings] 

Unidentified Hi. 

person 

van Kempen Hey. 

Unidentified So where we at? 

person 

van Kempen Phoenix 

[Conversation in Dutch for several minutes] 

Willerman: Hello? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 12BXQ2.wav 

Description: Call between Bastiaan van Kempen and several Optiver employees 

bate: 3119/07 

Pg 112 of132 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen; Ynng Tang; Ferhad Mekic; Marcel Klooss; Michel van der Lubbe; Dave Willerman 

van Kempen: Hey Dave, how you doing? 

Willerman: I'm doing okay, how are you? 

van Kempen:" I'm good, I'm good. Hey, I read there were a couple of issues 

today. 

Willerman: Ah, yes. 

van Kempen: What's going on? What are the issues? 

Willerman: . Okay, the VOX server, we had two issues with actually the 

VOX. The VOX was not sending out data for the front two 

months- so April and May. 

van Kempen: I know the details- do you know what the follow-up is? What 

results? 

Willerman: Okay, they confirmed that the problem was on their end; they 

were not gonna be able to fix it until after the close today. 

van Kempen: Okay and how about our issue with VOX, can you give us an 

update on that? 

Willerman: Ah, yes, Dan did work on that- he found that only one of the 

channels will connect at a time; so that is gone off to Atkins 

Developers to fix. 

van Kempen: Okay that's one, what else is going on? 

Willerman: We've got three computers that we're connecting to today or 

new ones that we're putting in today; those are set-up- we just 

need to copy everything over from them. Ah, I'm sorry? 

van Kempen: Any issues? 

Willerman: No major issues, no. The VOX is a major one. 

van Kempen: Okay, the VOX I read about already. I also heard that the Excel 

sheets aren't able to connect to remote PC's. 

Willerman: Yeah, we're having problems with the indices -they're stopping 

with an OLE error; like the data sources are locked. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 12BXQ2.wav 

Description: Call between Bastiaan van Kempen and several Optiver employees 

Date: 3119/07 

Pg 113 of 132 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen; Yung Tang; Ferhad Mekic; Marcel Klooss; Michel van der Lubbe; Dave Willerman 

van Kempen: Okay, so how is that being addressed? 

Willerman: I've been trying to step through the sheet to find out what is 

actually causing the problem. 

van Kempen: But the sheets were working before so do you really think it's a 

problem with the sheet or is it a problem with the permission? 

Willerman: We didn't change anything on the permissions over the weekend 

though. 

van Kempen: No, but did somebody maybe in Amsterdam change something? 

Willerman: Not that I'm aware of. 

van Kempen: Did we check though? 

Willerman: Ah, no, we did not. 

van Kempen: Okay, I mean that since there is nothing really changed through 

the sheets, if one would fail then I would say then might be it's 

the sheets, then since all of them are failing - and why do they 

all have to be logged in as the same user? 

Willerman: I'm not sure why they have to be logged in as the same userthey told me about that and I was trying to figure that one out 

myself. 

van Kempen: Ah, okay, don't try to do too much yourself; put this Excel issue 

-is Eric working on that as well? 

Willerman: Actually, Dan and I were taking a look at it. 

van Kempen: Okay; that one is pretty important- that's the only way how they 

can do their proper admin right now. 

Willerman: Okay, I'll get with Eric and have him take a look at the 

van Kempen: 

Willerman: 

permiSSIOns. 

I mean, I'm just throwing something out there. 

Oh yeah, and I appreciate it. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. 

Transcript of 12BXQ2.wav 

Description: Call between Bastiaan van Kempen and several Optiver employees 

Date: 3/19/07 

Pg 114 of132 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen; Yung Tang; Ferhad Mekic; Marcel Klooss; Michel van der Lubbe; Dave Willerman 

END 

van Kempen: And, if that doesn't work, send an email to Amsterdam that they 

look at it overnight. 

Willerman: Okay. 

van Kempen: Yeah? 

Willerman: I will do. 

van Kempen: If there is anything that you need me for give me a call on my 

cell or just shoot me an email. 

Willerman: Okay. 

van Kempen: Yep? 

Willerman: Alright. 

van Kempen: Later. 

Willerman: Thanks. 

van Kempen: Bye. 

Willerman: Bye. 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 115 of 132 

Transcript of OPTUS0002406.wav 

Description: Call from Fortis Clearing and NYMEX to Optiver 

Date: 3/26/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Steven Schwab (Optiver); Linda, Thomas LaSala, Nancy Minett, Anthony 

Densieski, Michael Hillebrenner and Wing Chang (NYMEX); John Ruark (Fortis Clearing) 

Automated 

Voice 

Ruark 

Linda 

Ruark 

Linda 

Ruark 

Linda 

Ruark 

van Kempen 

Ruark 

van Kempen 

Ruark 

Schwab 

van Kempen 

Ruark 

Welcome to BT Meet Me. Please enter your passcode followed 

by the pound sign. [Passcode entered.] After the tone, please state 

your name. 

Optiver 

John? 

Yes 

Hi. It's Linda. 

Hey, Linda. 

Tom is just finishing up another call, and I'm rounding up the rest 

of the guys, so if you have just a little bit of patience, we '11 be 

right with you. 

Terrific 

Hey John. 

Yes 

It's Bastiaan and Steve from Optiver. We just dialed in. 

Hi Bastiaan. Hi Steve. 

Hey John. 

Is Linda still there? She just left. 

Yeah. It sounds - She ah - Did you hear the tail end of what she 

was saying? 

van Kempen Yeah 

Schwab Yeah 

Ruark OK 

Ruark 

van Kempen 

Schwab 

Ruark 

no vmces 

I hope you two have been able to get out of the office today. 

No 

No 

Oh. I'm sorry to hear it. I went out to get lunch for a couple 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et al. Pg 116 of132 

Transcript of OPTUS0002406.wav 

Description: Call from Fortis Clearing and NYMEX to Optiver 

Date: 3/26/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Steven Schwab (Optiver); Linda, Thomas LaSala, Nancy Minett, Anthony 

Densieski, Michael Hillebrenner and Wing Chang (NYMEX); John Ruark (Fortis Clearing) 

van Kempen 

Schwab 

Ruark 

van Kempen 

Ruark 

NYMEX 

Ruark 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

Ruark 

NYMEX 

Ruark 

van Kempen 

NYMEX 

Schwab 

NYMEX 

van Kempen 

Schwab 

NYMEX. 

? 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

minutes about an hour ago and it's so nice outside after the 

weather we've had. It is really terrific. 

Hmmmm. 

Yeah. It looks it. 

Yeah. 

So, you're alone from Fortis camp? You're the only one? 

Ah. Yes. 

Hello? 

Hello 

Hi. It's Tom NYMEX and Nancy NYMEX. 

Hello 

Hi Tom. Hi Nancy. John. This is John Ruark. 

OK. I've got now with me also Michael Hilbrenner and Wing 

Chang. They were both on Friday's calL 

OK 

Tom, it's Bastiaan from Optiver and Steven from Optiver. 

Hi Bastiaan. You know, Bastiaan, can you- what's Steve's last 

name? Steve, what's your last name? I'm sorry. 

It's Schwab. Just like Charles Schwab. 

Got it. 

Just a quick question. Was that call on Friday? I thought it was 

Thursday. 

Thursday 

Was it Thursday? 

Yes 

Thursday 

OK. Tony NYMEX also joined us. Tony, I don't know if you 

were on the last calL I don't think. Were you? 
CFTC v. Optiver US, LLC, et a!. Pg 117 of132 

Transcript of OPTUS0002406. wav 

Description: Call from Fortis Clearing and NYMEX to Optiver 

Date: 3/26/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Steven Schwab (Optiver); Linda, Thomas LaSala, Nancy Minett, Anthony 

Densieski, Michael Hillebrenner and Wing Chang (NYMEX); John Ruark (Fortis Clearing) 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

van Kempen 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

NY MEX 

NYMEX 

NYMEX 

That was Thursday 

That's it. 

Uhhuh. 

Inaudible 

Alright. 

Yes, Tom. This is Bastiaan from Optiver. Just ah since our call 

last Thursday we pretty much [inaudible] about into severely 

toning down the activity in the TAS contract and the subsequent 

hedging in it to actually sharp - having fairly limited liquidity in 

the T AS contract and subsequent less hedging during the 2 

minutes elapse period. I was just ah - first would like to know 

how it was perceived on your end. 

Yeah. Mike, can you speak to that? 

Yeah. I mean all T AS trades all together what I saw on Friday 

was in all markets was 643 buys 675 sales. Ah. Crude, heat, 

gasoline. Urn. And ah basically there wa- I don't think there was 

anything of too much significance. OK. I mean gasoline was the 

most significant market that you traded. 

What was the gasoline T AS, Mike? 

Urn. Basically, they traded - I can get you a breakdown. 

What's the- what's theGasoline, basically, they sold net about 175 short TAS in the 

gasoline. 

What's the gross? Do you have the gross? 

You mean what they made? 

No, no, no, no. Was- Buy. Sell. Is that a net number you're 

giving me? 

That was the net number. They had in both the April and the May 
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contract they had 215 buys versus 390 sales. Urn, the May was, I 

believe, 205 by 210, so that was like a negative 5. April was plus 

10 by negative 180 so that was negative 170. So. 

OK 

So that's how I got the negative 175 

And what about the trading in the corresponding closes? 

Urn - it was - They covered the - they covered the gasoline in the 

close. That's why I said [inaudible]. I think here it is. They were 

175 urn- Let's see if it was all Aprils. Yeah. They bought 175 

Aprils in the close- closing period thereabouts. 

How were those orders laid in? 

Uhhh-- fairly orderly. I can let you-- I can let you see them. I 

mean-- (inaudible)-- they start here-- you know-- there's one trade 

here at 27 times-versus at-in the closing range-14.01s and 2s-

- a couple 10s-12s-13s-and that's it. Basically-they had a 

good-- they had good TAS trade prices-ummm--

The price moved quite a bit though. How much-what-- what 

percentage of the closing range volume were they? 

I don't- I'd have to go and get the--- gasoline--- (inaudible) 

I guess my comment is-it's obviously-- significantly tuned down 

in terms of the volumesUmm-huh. 

--which is-- obviously-- you know-- appreciated-- and-- uh--

responsive to what we were looking to see. I don't know if I'm in 

the position to just simply say-- uh-- that's-- that's the way to go 

and-- uh-- that's an acceptable outcome. I'm-- I'm not ready to 

say that. 

Yeah-- I mean-- yeah-- looks specifically with the RBOB-- I 
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believe that-- uh-- we were probably less than like 5% of the 

closing volume in there. Because we did see a significant price 

jump ourselves out there and-- we were very conservative in--

ehh-- in the way we hedged it. During this period based on our 

conversation. But we did see that pump(?) out there as well. We 

thought it was something we had to deal with. And-yeah-pretty 

much what I'd like to know is--like I believe we're adding value 

to the end user of the T AS contract by providing size liquidity out 

there-- and--one of the--one of the-- ehh-- specifications of the 

TAS contract is pretty much that we-- we have to hedge it out in a 

period right around the VW AP. The most pronounced during 

hedging-- hedging is during VW AP. And whether we do that 

hedging activity because we have a larger part of the open interest 

in the T AS contract or someone else. I believe-- either way the 

exposure to the market would be similar. So-- I would-- what I 

would like-- is to get like some clear idea of what-what is 

acceptable and what is not acceptable on your end. 

Why are they hedging? They're nuts. I'm-- Tony-- there's no 

hedge. It's-- it's just- you're covering theTAS. 

Well-April had a total closing range volume of 1229. OK-- and 

they-- they had a 17 5 purchases. 

1229 times 2. 

Right so-- buy-- the-- the-- buying enough for every seller. 

No-- (inaudible)-- 175 over 1229-- you can look at it single 

sidely. 

Right. 

So-- that's-- uh-- ? 

15%? 
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15%. Ba-- Bastiaan. We-- that 175-- we're seeing the closing 

range-that's the cumulative across both menus-- Mike? Or is that 

just Globex? 

No-- this is both menus 

So-- we're seeing you-- the 175 not being 5% --it's-- I don't 

know--

Eh-- he probably added-- eh-- eh-- both the closing of April and 

May-- and we probably added both by themselves. 

OK. 

That's probably how he came up the figure. 

OK. I'm looking--looking-- totally-- solely at April and it's 

about-- you know 14%. 

(inaudible) 8. 

It certainly seems-- to be-- uh-- a change in the profile-- so to 

speak-- umm-- I don't know-- I'm-- I'm really uncomfortable in 

giving finite guidance at this point with regards to giving-- you 

know-- percentages and what not. 

Uh.-- huh. 

Nancy-- you want to add to that? 

No-- I agree with Tom-- urn. 

(inaudible) 

I understand why you're asking. Bu_t-- I-- I-- right now-- with the 

regulator knows on our part is we put out-- you know-- guidance. 

And I think we appropriately addressed our observations with you 

last week-- umm-- in terms of simply-- you know-- laying up-- uh-

- firmer guidance I don't think we're ready absolutely to give that 

yet. 

It's-- it's not just the numbers. It's the way the number's used. So-
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-if--

Sorry Nancy. I didn't get that. 

It's not just the-- the raw number-- how many contracts you're 

acquiring, what percentage-- but it's-- it's how that number is used 

in the-- uh-- closing range and I think that the notice to members 

that Tom pointed you to from October to speaks to that. That the 

urn, the compliance department is going to take a hard look on 

what type of use the, what type of trading is done and how the 

trading is done and evaluating whether the T AS position is being 

accumulated in order to push that closing number. 

Yeah. I mean what we're trying to do is just make markets in the 

TAS contract and hedge ourselves as well as possible during that 

closing period and maybe slightly before. But you gotta do it 

before 1:30 'cause afterwards liquidity.dries up completely. 

Well, you know guys making markets in TAS may not be a 

regulatory safe--

Haven. 

Haven. 

Matter of fact- this is Tony NYMEX - One of the things you have 

to consider is congestion in the market and what your need to be in 

the market at a certain period of time is. And like all things, that 

needs to be discussed, looked at, reviewed. But they always come 

back to say, what is your commercial need for you to be in the 

market at a certain period oftime and did you trade the market in a 

commercially reasonable manner. 
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I just am not of the mind to speak in broadly that, uh, this is 

necessarily a prudent path to go do~, providing liquidity in T AS. 

I think that by, based upon our observations, our concerns, our 

notice, I think there should be bright lights all over, doing exactly 

that. 

Em. So, so you would suggest that, that uh not making markets in 

T AS at all? I mean that doesn't seem like the best thing for the 

(inaudible) of the TAS conference though. 

I think that- I'm not - I'll be honest with you, I'm not so 

convinced of that. I think there are users, commercial users, of 

TAS and that there are natural buyers and sellers. You know, in so 

far as - you know - market making, I'm not so convinced we need 

someone to make a market in these things. What I am convinced 

of is that, you know, what we saw, in the firms trading, and I 

admit you made a change, I, you know, would be just as 

concerned tomorrow if I saw someone else do it. I think that, you 

know that, that making that market in TAS and then how, you 

know, your systems or your persons, you know, put the liquidating 

orders in I think uh, you know, create, you know, pressure and it 

sure as heck looks like it's to achieve an outcome. And I think it's, 

you know, I'm concerned with it. So, I mean, if at the end of this . conversation, you know, you conclude that making markets in 

TAS is not something you want to do, that's, that's your business 

decision. If you conclude that, you K.now, you feel you want to 

make them, and you can deal with- and I can't give you guidance 

as we sit here today in absolute terms as to what's the (inaudible) 

-as to what's the secret sauce, as to a safe haven insofar as what 

kind of volume can you do without getting the eye of the 
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regulator. I'm not ready to do that. If, you know, then again, in a 

business matrix, if you guys feel you can operate and, you know, 

in light of that Market Advisory we put out, and, you know, tread 

water in there, and not affect settlement valuation, urn, you know, 

that's your call. If, for whatever reason, we feel otherwise, we're 

certainly gonna reach back. 

Mm-hmm. Would it make sense to have a continuous dialogue 

with you regarding the activity that, that we see, and that we have 

in that contract? I mean, is that something that you're opening, or, 

open to? 

Sure. Ummm- be willing to talk about it, you know, again. Umm, 

and, you know, it makes sense to talk, you know, later in the week 

or early next week. If we see, again, if we see, you know, your 

participation, you know, you know, increase and replicate to what 

we saw last week, I can assure you we're gonna be reaching out 

van Kempen I Okay, alright 

Schwab 

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van Kempen 

Assuming that, that, that doesn't occur, umm, [we'd] be more than 

willing to, to, you know, take a, to take a, a weaker review, and 

talk about it again. But I, you know, I will tell you I'm, I don't 

have any kind of regulatory hangover insofar as, you know, 

expressing to you, you know, the concerns I had last week, and the 

reasoning why we, you know, reached out to you. 

Mmrn-hmm. I, I mean I understand it, and we also take this very 

seriously on our end. We want to comply with whatever rules or 

guidelines, you, you set and whatever (inaudible) you give us. We 

just want to make sure that, uhh, we can still perform our business 

within the guidelines that you say, er, that you set. And at the 
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same time, we just want to make sure also that we, uhh, that 

whatever we do is in comparison equal to what other market 

participants are doing. So that we don't affect the market in a 

severe way- or in any substantial way-just like you expect that 

from other market makers, other liquidity providers- I don't, you 

don't have any specific market makers in theTAS contract. 

And just as a note, it may be that we, uhh, and we're talking about 

it internally, which is why maybe a call in a, in a week, ummm, is 

prudent. Maybe we need to put out even more specific guidance. 

Or if we see something -like we tell it to him earlier -

Right, but maybe we need to put out more specific guidance 

insofar as notice to the market. You know, (inaudible) warning 

around the notion of, you know, providing liquidity in TAS. Just 

to the very nature of, of the product. But we're not there yet. But 

maybe that's something that we, uhh, are going to be talking about 

internally. 

(Mumbling) 

Maybe, you know, providing- a liquidity provider, you know, a 

two-way market- hey, you know, broadly speaking on the 

electronic trading system, on standard markets, is a great thing. 

This is a unique instrument. And, you know, the genesis of it came 

from commercial users, and, I just, you know, I, we, from a 

regulatory perspective, saw concerns with TAS, you know, issues 

around TAS- as I said to you last week there urn- there's history 

of issues in London. FSA has taken issues - urn - with - urn I 

think it was when IPE was operating - you know - the markets 

there regarding similar activity. So it's not- it's not new stuf£ 

What's new here obviously is the advent of electronic trading. So, 
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it's obviously something that we're gonna to look at. And if it's 

prudent - if you guys would like to talk about a day next week to 

have a follow up call.:.... I'm more than welcome. And I'll leave 

you with the point I mentioned earlier that we're going to keep on 

looking at these closes and at the activity of yourself and others. 

And if we feel- if we're concerned about something, believe me, 

you'll hear from us first. 

Yeah. I mean- I just want to be proactive on that part if there's 

something that we can improve or we can change that we'll do 

that in a communication with you. 

Mmm. Hmmm. 

And- I mean. The specs of this TAS contract pretty much to my 

understanding will result in that somebody will have to - eh -buy 

or sell these contracts in the underlying during that time period. 

So my feeling is that if we don't make the market and provide the 

liquidity probably somebody else will. And- uh- which will 

have a similar effect on the underlying market of- do you agree 

with that? 

No. 

Not really. Some of the people that may transact business or 

refiners that are producing gasoline and sell it on an average price, 

small consumers that are buying it .on these prices - in other words 

a cash offset- a commercial need for why they're doing -

They're not squaring- , a lot of the people, guys, are not squaring 

up. Meaning that they are completely fine. It's a commercial tool. 

Now I was long a thou- 500 contracts in crude oil. Let's make it 

simpler- 300 uh- 200 contracts- there's 20 business days. I am 

going to liquidate, and that is the convention in crude oil. They 
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average the month. They do 10 a day for 20 business days. And 

the ideal result for them is to lift that hedge at settlement. 

Meaning they buy or sell TAS, they are done. 

Mmm. Hmmm. 

There is no - you know - trading around it. That is the trade for 

them. All it is is a liquidating transaction. That was the genesis of 

the trading instrument. It was - It was fo - requested by and 

fostered by institutional- you know - energy participants who are 

looking to square their book up with theTAS. It wasn't 

constructed around someone making a market in theTAS which 

then requires them to square the book. 

Ah. Well, I mean - I understand the commercial end user uh part 

of it but if we net all the commercial end users we're going to 

have still probably some kind of result whether it's long TAS or 

short TAS or probably if there's no market makers there's not 

enough liquidity so somebody who would have liked to have 

bought T AS would actually have to execute it in the underlying 

market themselves 

Mmmhmmm 

So wouldn't that still result in the same net effect on the 

underlying market? 

I don't know. If someone couldn't get theTAS, maybe they had to 

pay more ticks for the TAS. 

mhmm. 

You know, maybe instead of paying a tick over or two ticks over, 

they gotta buy 10 ticks over. Or, they wind up going, as you said, 

to the close. But, you know, I'm much more comfortable with 

someone placing their order into the close than, you know to 
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effectively liquidate their hedge than you know, a market making 

scenario that urn. 

Concentrates-. 

Concentrates the activity. I mean, again, I think that there's 

concern around a market making strategy as you had in place. I 

don't know how else to put it. 

That's purely because of the concentration, of the, activity and 

having a large part of the open interest? 

Yeah, yep. A large part of the open interest, a large part ofthe 

closing range volume. 

mmhm. 

How the orders get placed in. As I said to you, you know we went 

through looking through at least one of those days, gentlemen. I 

mean, you start tolling in at 2:05 with tens and twenties, and then 

come 28 time you know the big blocks and 300s are coming off, it 

looks like there's a kicker being applied, that's how it looks. 

The reason that we, that we - like, before the 28, before the 

VW AP starts, we have a larger market risk and say the market is 

moving up and we n~ed to and we're selling prior to, then the 

chances that we get close to a settlement price become much 

smaller. So that's why we can spread a little of the risk over a 

wider area because most of the exposure is during that two minute 

period. 

(Inaudible) 

You know, one thing, you know most customers I'll ask them, and 

they'll tell me what they're hedging, what they're buying against, 

what they use as tools, what they're using as a hedging tool. What 

is your reason for doing this trade? 
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Providing liquidity. Uh, that's our goal as a business model. We, 

uh, anywhere where we trade, we make a bid and an ask spread 

and we believe we get paid on buying on the bid and selling on the 

offer. 

Okay. Is there a profit motive? 

Uh, yes. 

What is your profit motive? 

The spread, capturing the spread. 

Ok. 

I mean we do that in lots of options transactions worldwide and uh 

in most options series there's a multitude of series or a multitude 

of products which we can lay our hands on and that's why there's 

over time you can spread it better so there's less of a direct market 

effect comparatively to what you see right now in theTAS 

contract. Because the only way to really substantially, really 

actually hedge this contract is to trade it during that time period. 

I understand the point, but when you talk about trading it, the 

observations on how you're trading it, seem to, you know, the 

market seems to move in reaction to you know, your orders. And I 

don't think that that a market making strategy--. 

No, No, No. I give you assurance and what I was trying to say 

before, is if you're like providing liquidity, you're pretty much 

taking the opposite side of the commercial end users-. 

Mmhm. 

Both ways. Indirectly there's going to be an imbalance that the 

commercial end users have on the market. Effective they don't 

hedge themselves off directly doing it themselves in the settlement 

period but by trading these TAS contract doesn't change the fact 
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that they are a natural buyer or they are a natural seller. 

I understand the point you're raising. 

Alright. Urn. You guys want to talk about is - we're gonna 

obviously talk further internally here. I think you know what ourI think we articulated what our concerns are, how we are going to 

be looking. Umm - would it be prudent to look towards setting 

something for early next week sometime? 

Yeah. I mean I would prefer it. I mean this is something that - we 

believe in our expanding the global products range that we do, 

that the TAS contract could be one of the contracts we can 

provide liquidity in ... each one in according to exchange 

standards, and would love to have this conversation with you 

going forward. 

Let me ask a question. Do you provide liquidity in a similar 

fashion in a product like this on other markets? 

We have similar kind of activity that we do on the I C E. We trade 

one TAS contract also versus the other. So, we provide liquidity in 

both markets. 

Right, but- is it- you're talking Intercontinental Exchange or 

Intercontinental Futures? Y ~m're talking about the natural gas one 

or we're taking the - previous I P E? 

We're talking about the previous I P E. We don't trade anything 

over the counter so we only trade listed products. 

So you be (inaudible) talking the Brent contract? 

For example, yes 
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So you, so you do similar market making in Brent? 

Yes. 

And let me ask you - have they- have IPE -have Intercontinental 

Futures or FSA ever raised an issue with it? 

No they have not, but based upon your concerns I am going to 

address it with them see if they see any issues. 

If, if you do so, I'd certainly- I would like to follow up and see 

what their thoughts are and pass those along Bastiaan, I'd 

appreciate that. 

Sure! 

I, I can tell you that when we opened up - as silly as that exercise 

was, the NYMEX Europe Limited, the gentleman that we put on 

as our Chief, our basically our Regulatory Officer previously 

worked for the I-P-E in a regulatory capacity and he was quite 

articulate in talking about how that activity was one that while he 

was there was hawked closely. But, you know, times change. 

yeah, I mean, it's- it's definitely something that's on my list to 

talk to them about. I mean, it's done in a similar fashion, but it's 

done on NYMEX's (inaudible) we've toned down our activity in 

order to prepare to talk to the I-C-E as well. Cause we think it's 

more of a global marketplace discussion that will happen at some 

point in time and maybe it's related to transitioning from a floorbased model to an electronic based model where there might be 

some temporary or some more long term differences in the 

contract and the way they are hedged. I think whatever the I-C-E 

and the NYMEX set up as a guideline we believe probably global 

both exchanges would want to have a similar kind of guideline. 
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One doesn't want to seem more or less competitive than the other. 

I broadly have to agree with that except for the caveat that it seems 

that the regulatory schemes, although similar, are not quite in 

complete lock-step. 

Yeah, that's ah [inaudible]. 

Meaning I think that, ah, that the U.S. regulators seem to have a 

firmer grip on a lot of things and requirements- position limits, 

and the sort- but that's my observation. Anyway, urn, we're in a 

conference room- I don't have access to calendars at the 

moment.- Would it be alright if weEnd of the month is this week soWhat's that? 

-end of the month is this week. 

Yeah, I was going to say, would it be alright if we circle back 

through possibly John in coordinating a call for next week? 

Yeah, that's perfect. 

Sure, I'm happy to be the contact point on it ifthat' s useful, 

although you know I am, judging from the conversation today, I'm 

not necessarily sure that the conversation at this point wouldn't be 

purely be an Exchange and Optiver conversation. 

I understand John, because you're acting as Fortis counsel, 

correct? 

Correct. 

Ah, that's right- that's a fair point. 

I mean, I'm happy to pass on the information, and if you think 

there is anything, and ifBastiaan or Tom if you think there is 

anything that we can add I'm happy to participate. But you know 
CFTC v_ Optiver US, LLC, et at. Pg 132 ofl32 

Transcript of OPTUS0002406.wav 

Description: Call from Fortis Clearing and NYMEX to Optiver 

Date: 3/26/07 

Parties: Bastiaan van Kempen and Steven Schwab (Optiver); Linda, Thomas LaSala, Nancy Minett, Anthony 

Densieski, Michael Hillebrenner and Wing Chang (NYMEX); John Ruark (Fortis Clearing) 

END 

NYMEX 

van Kempen 

NYMEX 

van Kempen 

Ruark 

NY MEX 

Ruark 

NYMEX 

Ruark 

NYMEX 

van Kempen 

Ruark 

NYMEX 

All 

at the same time it does seem like it's urn- you two exchanging 

thoughts and ideas. 

You know what, that's a very fairpoint Bastiaan, what ifl reach 

out to you directly to coordinate a time- if for some reason it 

seems in our assessment we need to involve you know the FCM, 

Fortis, we'll reach out to John. 

That makes sense. 

What's your direct contact Bastiaan? 

I was just gojng to ask - John could you provide us with an email 

for Tom's contact info and provide Tom with our contact info? 

Ah, I'd be happy to do it Uhm Tom, I think I've emailed you 

stuff in the past, but I'll have to dig through my emails. 

Again, I'm tlasala@nymex.com. 

I will pass everything on. 

That's great. 

Okay. 

If! get that I'll coordinate directly with Bastiaan. 

Okay. 

Sounds great. 

Okay, thank you. 

Bye_