BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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Department of Homeland Security

Federal Emergency Management Agency

U.S. Fire Administration

Board of Visitors for the National Fire Academy

August 15, 2022

J-102

Attendees:

The following members of the Board of Visitors for the National Fire Academy were in attendance 

for the Meeting.

John S. Butler (Chairperson)

Fire Chief 

Fairfax County Fire and Rescue Department

12099 Government Center Parkway

Fairfax, VA 22033

Dr. Patricia McIntosh (Vice Chair)

Lifetime Member (Inactive) 

League City Fire Department

555 West Walker Street

League City, TX 77573

Chief Kevin D. Quinn

First Vice Chair

National Volunteer Fire Council

7852 Walker Drive, Suite 375

Greenbelt, MD 20770

Thomas E. Romaine, Jr.

Smokechaser

Minnesota Department of Natural

Resources - Forestry

644 Pfaender Drive

New Ulm, MN 56073

Dr. Michael Macey

Director of Public Safety

St. John’s College

1160 Camino Cruz Blanca

Santa Fe, NM 87505

Steven Dubay

Deputy Chief

Colorado Springs Fire Department

375 Printers Parkway

Colorado Springs, CO 80910

Kristin Crowley

Fire Chief

Los Angeles Fire Department

200 N. Main Street, Suite 1770

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Dr. Mark A. Rivero

Site Coordinator

Southern Illinois University

1044 Beaver Crest Court

Henderson, NV 89015
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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Federal Emergency Management Agency/U.S. Fire Administration/National Fire Academy 

(FEMA/USFA/NFA) staff in attendance:

Mr. Eriks Gabliks, Superintendent, NFA

Ms. Deb Gartrell-Kemp, Program Support Specialist

Chief Tonya L. Hoover, Deputy Fire Administrator, USFA

Ms. Ellen Newlin, Program Specialist

Mr. William Troup, Branch Chief, Emergency Response Support Branch, USFA

Mr. David Millstein, Branch Chief, National Fire Data Center, USFA

Mr. Lester Rich, Branch Chief, Response Branch, NFA

Ms. Christine Spangler, Branch Chief, Leadership and Community Risk Reduction Branch, NFA

Ms. Michelle Spielman, Secretary

Ms. Tiffany Warren, Branch Chief, Training, Administration, Planning and Analysis Branch, 

NFA

Mr. David Brummett, FEMA Office of Chief Counsel

Others in attendance/public attendees:

None

Convene Board of Visitors Meeting/Welcome

Chief John S. Butler, Chairperson, Board of Visitors

Dr. Patricia McIntosh, Vice Chairperson, Board of Visitors

Mr. Eriks Gabliks, Superintendent, National Fire Academy

Chief Tonya Hoover, Deputy Fire Administrator, U.S. Fire Administration

Mr. Eriks Gabliks welcomed everyone to this meeting of the USFA/NFA Board of Visitors. The

meeting was being conducted under regulations outlined in the Federal Advisory Committee Act 

(FACA). Everyone is a Special Government Employee (SGE). Mr. Gabliks served as the 

Designated Federal Officer for the meeting to make sure everyone followed the federal 

requirements.

Mr. Gabliks stated that Ms. Deb Gartrell-Kemp, who did a great job coordinating this group and 

making this meeting possible, was in the back of the room. She would make sure the meeting 

stayed on schedule. She also made sure everyone was able to get to the campus for the meeting

and helped with everyone’s travel. Ms. Michelle Spielman and Ms. Ellen Newlin were Ms. 

Gartrell-Kemp’s backups in case anyone needed additional help with administrative functions.

Mr. Gabliks stated that the Board of Visitors agenda is published in the Federal Register. The times 

listed are approximate, and they might need to adjust the schedule as needed. There should be 

enough time scheduled for all speakers, comments and questions, as well as for interaction. Mr. 

Gabliks stated that under the FACA requirements, anyone wanting to send something in to be 

reviewed had the ability to do so. There were no comments sent in from the public.
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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Dextera/Leading Solutions support staff, Ms. Jennifer Vanover, would be taking notes and would

compile minutes. The minutes would be prepared and sent to the meeting chair within 90 calendar 

days. All comments and notes would be available for public review forever; they would be

archived. Mr. Gabliks advised everyone to be sure they state their name before speaking so the 

minutes could be recorded accurately. If anyone has notes, email them to Ms. Gartrell-Kemp so 

she can forward them to Ms. Vanover. Mr. Gabliks stated that for the meeting order they would

follow Robert’s Rules for motions. 

Mr. Gabliks convened this meeting of the USFA/NFA Board of Visitors. 

Mr. Gabliks introduced himself and everyone in the room introduced themselves, said what they 

do and where they were from and stated why they are a part of the Board of Visitors. Once 

everyone had the chance to introduce themselves, Mr. Gabliks turned the meeting over to Chief 

John Butler to start the meeting off. 

Chief Butler stated that he would have said most of the stuff that he said in his introduction. Chief 

Butler stated that he enjoys being the chair for the Board of Visitors. He is excited that this meeting 

is in person and virtual. He stated that the Board of Visitors is important because it is an

opportunity to give back. Chief Butler welcomed and thanked everyone for being at the meeting 

in person and virtually. Chief Butler turned the meeting over to Chief Tonya Hoover. 

Chief Hoover stated that Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell was on her way to the Truman Symposium in 

Independence, Missouri. She sent her regrets for not being at this meeting. Chief Hoover stated 

that Dr. Moore-Merrell had a lot going on and a lot to share with the country as it relates to the 

USFA. She was raising the profile of the USFA throughout the country and tying it directly to 

important stakeholders. Chief Hoover turned the meeting back over to Chief Butler.

Chief Butler turned the meeting over to Mr. Gabliks.

Mr. Gabliks stated that a number of classes were ongoing, and he gave the Board of Visitors a 

printout of the classes ahead of the planned campus tour. Mr. Gabliks stated that campus is at about 

65% capacity. The students are slowly being brought back on campus, and there are more classes 

going on. The students are engaged, happy and thriving. The goal is to be back to 100% capacity

by October, meaning more classes and larger class sizes.

They were seeing enrollments fluctuate based on the local COVID-19 case counts. Students that 

were going to attend may not be able to because they have to cover for a colleague that is ill. The 

departments may not let them come because of staffing issues. There are 2 classes that are full this 

week. Mr. Gabliks stated that while some classes are not full, the NFA has a commitment to 

providing professional development opportunities for its career and volunteer students. Some 

students in the smaller classes have already been delayed a couple of times because of the 

pandemic, so they wanted to get them back on campus. There have been classes with only 5 people. 

Mr. Steven Dubay asked if the instructor numbers were being adjusted with smaller class sizes. 

Was there just one instructor for 5 students, or are there still 2 instructors? What has been the 

student experience and their feedback on the smaller classes? Mr. Gabliks stated that they have 
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applied data to a lot of the decision-making. One example is the Managing Officer Program with

a cohort of 7 and another of 9. It does not make sense to run both classes, so they are combined.

The student feedback is that they either love it or hate it. They like that it is more intimate, and 

they have more discussion time with fewer students. About 98% of the students like the smaller 

classes, and 2% do not. The 2% are usually the quiet students that do not want to be pulled into 

discussions. Nevertheless, they are managing the instructor cadre. There are some instructors that 

cannot come on campus because of vaccination status. There are some that do not want to come 

on campus with the pandemic still going on. There is the challenge of getting people available to 

teach. There are weeks in which there are a lot of instructors available, and there are weeks in 

which there are none. They have had to cancel some classes because of that. Mr. Gabliks stated 

that another issue is that some agencies are paying a lot more for their people to stay there and 

work because of the lack of staff. The states are having the same issues.

Chief Kevin Quinn asked if they were finding that students and instructors were excited to be back 

on campus. Mr. Gabliks replied yes. They were excited to be on campus and were also excited 

about how the campus was being maintained due to the facility staff of Management, Operations, 

and Support Services (MOSS). Mr. Gabliks stated that the trailer at the main entrance is gone, and 

there is more of a professional look. Students are generally excited to be back and are interested 

in the class opportunities; there are a few students that have not been on campus before. Those 

individuals who did not know about the campus are told to tell everyone they know about their 

experience. The NFA hosted a national weekend. There were people from more than 15 states —

including Alaska, California, Florida and Texas — on campus for 2 days. The agencies they were 

from could not afford to send them for a week or 2. It was not a budget issue but related to staffing. 

Mr. Gabliks turned the meeting back over to Chief Butler for the selection of the Board of Visitors

Officers. Chief Butler stated that they would select board officers for Fiscal Year (FY) 2023. Chief 

Quinn stated that he would like for Chief Butler to stay on as the chair and Dr. Patricia McIntosh 

to stay as vice chair. He stated that they are doing a great job. Those are the only 2 positions that 

needed to be filled. Chief Butler asked if there were any other nominations for those positions;

there were no other suggestions for nominees. Chief Quinn motioned for Chief Butler and Dr. 

McIntosh to stay in those positions, and Mr. Thomas Romaine made the second motion for the 

positions to stay as is.

Chief Butler turned the meeting over to Chief Hoover for remarks on the strategic plan updates.

Chief Hoover stated that FEMA had just completed its strategic plan, so the USFA could start its

own strategic plan. A meeting was planned in September. They would begin by walking through 

what the USFA strategic plan would look like. When having conversations with the fire 

administrator, they would need to make sure they included stakeholders and the Board of Visitors. 

Their first meeting would be a planning meeting, and the fire administrator would reach out to the 

Board of Visitors to start the process. That way, the Board of Visitors would have an opportunity 

to see, comment and provide input and advice for the strategic plan as it relates to the NFA. There 

would be more on that later. Chief Hoover then provided information about MOSS.
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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Deferred Maintenance and Capital Improvements on the National Emergency 

Training Center Campus

Chief Tonya Hoover, Deputy Fire Administrator, U.S. Fire Administration

Chief Hoover stated that she took over as MOSS director in December when Mr. Al Fluman 

retired. In about a week there will be a new MOSS director. The new MOSS director is driving 

cross-country with his family, and he is from California. He is very familiar with everything that 

is going on with the campus. His name is Mr. Vince Hodge, and they are excited to have him as 

the MOSS director. 

Chief Hoover stated that there are some exciting things going on with MOSS. There are a number 

of completed deferred maintenance and capital improvement activities on campus. Chief Hoover 

stated that she did not care for not having a lot of students on campus, but when there is not a lot 

of activity on campus, that gives more opportunity to get things done. In 2021, a lot of items were 

completed. Some big projects were painting, roof replacements and the front trailer removal. There 

is a new building out front for security. 

Chief Hoover stated that in 2022, there are ongoing projects and deferred maintenance that 

included things like fire alarm system upgrades and floor renovations. There was also some 

extensive work going on in Building N on floors 3 and 4; they are not touching anything historic

but opening up some space in that building. NETC is on the national and state historical 

preservation list, so there are some limitations on what they can and cannot do. They need to 

comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Plumbing and elevator upgrades are 

going on also.

Chief Hoover stated that they thought they would be further along on some of the projects but 

because of supply chain issues they are not. They did go through some buildings that were not

being used and borrowed things to use for the buildings that were. The heating, ventilating, and 

air conditioning (HVAC) in the buildings on campus match the HVAC systems in hospitals. The 

filtration systems on campus are a replica of what goes into medical facilities because the 

atmosphere needs to be clean. Chief Hoover stated that the reason for not opening windows is to 

avoid throwing off the balance of the HVAC. She is proud of the work done to the HVAC systems. 

Chief Hoover stated that campus is over 150 years old, and they are the gold star for not just FEMA 

but also for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). Chief Hoover stated that the campus 

has been doing great with reducing the carbon footprint from lighting systems, from solar on all 

of the flat roofs to the use of ion battery vehicles and to how they recycle and reuse water-reducing 

flow that has been going on for years.

Chief Hoover stated that the burn range is getting improvements. They are adding classrooms and 

bathrooms. She stated that the current FEMA administrator is very supportive of the work going 

on at NETC. 

Chief Hoover stated that they are increasing dorm spaces and improving existing dorm spaces. The 

15 current electric carts are to be replaced. She stated that they are aware of the challenges that ion 

batteries have when it comes to vehicles, and the last thing they need on campus is thermal runaway 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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on a charging station. Chief Hoover stated that the electric vehicles will be charged at the 

appropriate locations and will be monitored appropriately. They will not be charged in buildings, 

under buildings or too close to buildings. They will be following the requirements and standards 

for the location of those vehicles. 

Chief Hoover stated that it has been a long time since they have had Emmitsburg, Gettysburg or 

Frederick County first responders on campus to actually walk the site and the buildings and 

actually touch things. She wants to do an extensive tour and educational opportunity with the local 

responders so that if they would have to respond here, they know what to be aware of. 

Chief Hoover stated that the Wi-Fi on campus has been an issue, and they have been working on 

it for over 5 years. She is happy to report that they have received some fallback funding and are 

going to be doing everything they can to work on the Wi-Fi upgrade. Some difficulties are because 

it is an information technology (IT) system, and they have to go through a few hoops with FEMA, 

procurement and the contractor. Everyone is aware of what is needed, and it is just the paperwork 

and time that goes with it. They want to get started and the funds committed before the end of 

September. Heat maps from AT&T have been received and they show where the good spots are 

and where the bad spots are. They are working with them to get things approved.

Chief Hoover stated that 2023 projects were getting in motion. For them to obtain funding, there 

is an internal process with FEMA. There is an opportunity to put in a number of funding asks this 

year to go through FEMA, DHS, and the Office of Management and Budget. The projects are 

deferred maintenance projects. There are things like staffing requirements, a full-time nurse, 

increased security presence, capital improvement needs and IT infrastructure improvements. There 

is a lot of work tied to the IT infrastructure funding request. 

Chief Hoover stated that there are a number of items projected for 2023. The improvements are 

focused on the carbon footprint and environmental considerations. While they have time and 

reduced capacity, they want to get the improvements done. Chief Hoover asked if there were any 

questions.

Dr. McIntosh asked if this was the deferred maintenance emphasis list and was it appropriate of 

her to think that there had been huge accomplishments over the last couple of years. It used to 

seem like the list was so extensive and it seemed like campus was falling apart, but it did not look 

or feel that way now. It seemed like so many things had been accomplished. Chief Hoover stated 

that she attributed that to a lot of the work of Mr. Fluman, who made sure he had an active list all 

the time and was constantly finding funds. Over the last few years, they have had the ability to 

show the importance of NETC; it is not just a plot of land. They have a number of agreements with 

other federal entities and memoranda of understanding (MOUs) in place if things should happen 

that other entities of government could use the facility and how they tie into the Secret Service, 

FBI, Raven Rock, Department of Defense, partners at the Department of Justice, U.S. Coast Guard

(USCG), etc. They have been able to articulate the importance of the campus to the student 

population as well as the government.

Dr. McIntosh asked if they felt they were getting the appropriate support and funding needed to 

maintain and support campus. Chief Hoover stated that she thought it important that the Board of 
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Visitors recognize that funding is fluid. Chief Hoover stated that you keep at it whether things are 

100% funded or 50% funded. The campus gets used 49 weeks out of the year by students and staff. 

Chief Quinn stated that Mr. Fluman had a vision on a new building by the tennis courts. That was 

supposed to be a health and safety building. When a lot of college campuses start attracting 

students, they build new health facilities forstudents. Chief Quinn stated that he thought that would 

draw more students because the health facility now is kind of depressing. Chief Hoover stated that 

right now it is a room with a bed in it and an office for the nurse. Chief Quinn asked whether that 

was still in the capital improvements and whether it could be moved up in priority. Chief Hoover 

replied that it was still in capital improvements. There has been a lot of discussion about that 

particular building. It is closer than it has been. The health, wellness and security footprint is 

increasing, so that building would serve that purpose as well as dorm rooms, a fitness center and

classroom space for health and safety. Chief Hoover stated that they did not get a no to the idea,

but it is the whole process as FEMA looks at the landscape for all buildings. Chief Quinn stated 

that maybe the Board of Visitors could stress and reinforce the importance of health and safety in 

the annual report. 

Chief Hoover stated that they have an opportunity to acquire some land adjacent to the campus. It 

is outside the fence line but runs up against it. Campus would like to do more ground-mounted 

solar panels. They are running out of flat roofs to put the solar panels on. Everyone is hopeful that 

they can go through the land acquisition successfully in the next couple of years. 

Mr. Dubay asked how many acres the potential land was. Was it double the size of campus? Chief 

Hoover replied no, it was probably 10 acres, but she was not sure. 

Dr. Michael Macey asked about whether, in the future, there would still be hybrid classes and 

video streaming across the country. If so, would there need to be an IT infrastructure for that?

Chief Hoover stated that she would speak briefly on that. There could be another situation where 

campus would have to go back to the use of technology. She stated that because of what did happen 

with the pandemic, it is now known where their vulnerabilities, strengths and weaknesses are, 

which does go back to the IT infrastructure agenda. Chief Hoover stated that even though more 

students are on campus, she still uses more video and bandwidth. Like any hydraulic system, there 

can only be so much at one time going through a pipe. The IT infrastructure improvements are 

based on what they need the technology for. Chief Hoover stated that there have been 

conversations about virtual learning. It is nice and can reach people who cannot travel, but it is not 

a replacement for the in-person experience. They did an excellent job with virtual when they had 

to do it that way. Chief Hoover stated that it was the best work for the situation that they were in.

There is a need for a strong IT infrastructure, and that is why they keep pushing for this. Campus 

has challenges with the phone system because the system is old. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that campus does not have the IT infrastructure to do what other facilities do 

because they do not even have an IT department. They have a lot of talented people that know a 

lot of stuff, but not an actual department. NETC did do a lot with Zoom, but that is a very basic 

platform. They can do classes in different states, but when they bring people to NETC, they have 

different people from all over and can communicate in person. The students are from different 

states and get the experience of being around someone who does the same job but is in a different 
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environment. NETC is not set up as an academic facility, so they do not have the infrastructure 

that colleges or universities have.

Chief Hoover stated that the USFA is going through a reorganization. They need to align the USFA 

with the 4 stars, and that means staffing as well. They have a lot of people filling in on different 

positions. They have had retirements and the ability to move staff around. They have people who 

have been on campus for a while in new positions, and they have new people that are in new 

positions. They have been focusing on developing and bringing together an IT team. IT is 

controlled by FEMA, so all the main people are downtown. The group they have on campus, of 

course, is focused on the campus needs. With the potential for a section manager for IT and filling 

the vacant program manager position, as well as bringing other groups together, that can define 

that IT section. Being more than 1 person deep and sharing information across all program areas 

will be more efficient. A lot of work has gone on by adding a new person to the IT team. How the 

new person sees things and deals with things is much different than how it was dealt with 10 or 15

years ago. Campus is close to getting a student to just push a button and get their transcript without 

picking up a phone and talking to someone. 

Mr. Dubay asked how many years Mr. Fluman worked on campus and what they owed him. Chief 

Hoover replied that Mr. Fluman came from the Emergency Management Institute (EMI) and 

served as the MOSS director for about 6 years. He had been with FEMA for a very long time. Dr. 

McIntosh stated that she felt that Mr. Fluman should receive big recognition in the report. Mr. 

Fluman did great things and got things done across the campus. 

Mr. Romaine asked if the Board of Visitors could send Mr. Fluman a letter congratulating and 

thanking him for all he had done for campus. Everyone agreed to make it known in the report and 

that a letter should be sent to Mr. Fluman. Chief Quinn made the first motion, and Dr. McIntosh 

made the second motion. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that for the NFA updates they would start with Ms. Tiffany Warren of the

Training, Administration, Planning and Analysis Branch.

National Fire Academy Updates on Developments, Deliveries, Staffing and 

Admissions

Ms. Tiffany Warren, Branch Chief, Training, Administration, Planning and Analysis

Ms. Warren stated that she was going to start with talking about the Government Performance and 

Results Act. The end-of-year results for FY 2021 on the supervisors of students trained was 92.5%. 

This is the supervisor who believes that their staff are better prepared as the result of the NFA 

training. The target that they wanted to hit is 87%. There was a 29% increase in student responses 

and over 100% increase in supervisor responses. They emailed everyone the survey, so they had 

to opt out instead of opting in. 

Dr. Macey asked how they picked 87% to be the benchmark. Ms. Warren replied that she was not 

sure, but she did know there is an office of programs and policy analysis at FEMA headquarters 

and a group that determines those metrics based on a number of factors. It is decided outside of 

the USFA. 
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Ms. Warren stated that they are aiming for more diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) with the 

contract instructors. They have problems with instructors not winning the bid because of travel 

costs, where they live, etc. They have started an analysis of looking into their set rates and levels 

of courses and instructors. That would require a lot of research, and they have begun. They are 

trying to find a set rate and still have the budget to have the same number of offerings. They have 

separated the travel costs from the instruction cost. There are a few IT things that need taken care 

of before they roll that process out. They do recognize that that is something that needs to happen. 

Dr. McIntosh asked if travel had been separated or if it was in the process. Ms. Warren replied that 

it was in the process of being separated. She stated that hopefully on the next bidding cycle it 

would be separated. 

Mr. Dubay asked how many contract instructors they had and how many they should have. Ms. 

Warren stated that she did not have the exact numbers, but she knew they needed more. She stated 

that she could get the numbers. There are some curricula areas that have a lot and some that do 

not. The few numbers can impact that budget because of the need for instructors. They are actively 

recruiting instructors. They had trouble this year when SAM.gov did a transition. Those issues 

should be resolved in the next couple of months. They do have a backup process through FEMA 

to get people on board because of those issues. 

Ms. Christine Spangler stated that they remain grossly understaffed. It is hard to interview the 

instructors because of work on 2 or 3 extra curricula. There are a lot of different factors that play 

a role in the instructor cadre. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that since he has been on campus, he has heard people talking about all the 

hoops that they have to go through to be an instructor on campus. He asked how they get 

practitioners engaged as instructors. He knows that it is hard for a working fire/emergency medical 

services (EMS) professional to do because they would have to take a vacation or something for a 

1-week or 2-week class. They do ask people if they cannot do a week at campus to do a weekend. 

They can bid on 2-day classes in their region. That still does not take away from all the things they 

have to go through to be an instructor. 

Mr. Dubay stated that his question did not take into consideration all of the different curriculum 

areas that they need instructors for. He thanked them for the explanation and stated that it is more 

complex than he expected. 

Chief Butler asked if the hoops the instructors have to go through are out of their control. Ms. 

Warren stated that when they started having issues with SAM.gov, they tried to remove one of 

those hoops, and they were told quickly by FEMA finance that because of the IRS reporting, they 

could not remove that hoop. The majority of the hoops are because of the Federal Acquisition 

Regulation. FEMA finance also has hoops to go through. The hoops happen outside of the USFA. 

Ms. Spangler stated that they have had numerous conversations about the issue of instructors, and 

once they are better staffed, they could improve the process of getting contract instructors. They 

talked about having quarterly open sessions with Zoom for question-and-answer discussions with 

instructors.
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Mr. Gabliks stated that in the eyes of the government, a contract instructor is no different than any 

other contractor in the federal system. 

Mr. Dubay stated that it was a process to get into the Board of Visitors as a volunteer. 

Dr. Mark Rivero asked if they had looked into recruiting instructors from colleges or universities. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that most of the instructors that work on campus are also working in other 

venues. They do have a lot of retirees that teach on campus. Sometimes those retirees lose their 

recency. The longer they are out of the job, the less they are connected to what they are teaching 

new individuals. 

Mr. Lester Rich stated that one of the effective things in the Executive Fire Officer (EFO) Program 

and in arson is to recruit from the student cadre. They have been looking at students that are looking 

to take that next step. 

Chief Quinn asked whether it was a funding issue that they are not fully staffed. Ms. Spangler 

stated that right now it is a FEMA human resource issue. They have tried 3 times for the training 

specialist EFO position. It took months to get a pass-over from someone that was not appropriate 

for the position. She stated that her branch is about 50% short, and she has been working 3

positions. Chief Quinn stated that that issue needs to be heard and made a priority. 

Dr. McIntosh asked what the metric was for contract instructors. How many do they have, and 

what is their average participation? Also, the DEI of that with the demographics regionwide, e.g.,

history, career, volunteer, etc. Ms. Warren stated that they can pull that together very quickly. 

Chief Kristin Crowley asked if there were any thoughts on whether she would be able to loan out 

her instructors. She would pay the instructor to go teach and then somehow get reimbursed for 

that. Ms. Warren stated that those types of things should be addressed by a lawyer because there 

are some concerns about providing things that look like a discount to the federal government. 

There are people that would teach at the NFA for free, but they cannot ethically do so as a federal 

entity. In the past, they have done the overarching contract. They have had contracts with entities 

that would provide instructors. Some of that gets to be budget prohibited. They are open to looking 

at the different options, but they have to run it through FEMA legal to see if they can go that way. 

Chief Crowley stated that when thinking about the next generation, they have to think about how 

to evolve, how to recruit, how to maintain, etc. They have to entice people and make it reasonable 

for them to do what they do. That has to be supported from the local level all the way up to the 

national level. Mr. Gabliks stated that it is something that will be looked into, but nothing is easy. 

There are a lot of policies and procedures to go through to safeguard the organizations. 

Chief Butler stated that it was an interesting concept to have a cadre of local talent. It is much 

easier for the fire chiefs to dispatch or seek volunteers to be dispatched to teach somewhere.

Ms. Warren stated that they had an American Council on Education (ACE) review at the end of 

2021 (Nov. 29 through Dec. 3). They had 15 courses reviewed, and they all retained their

previously approved credit. They have 2 new courses. 1 is a 6-week online course (M0566, “Hot 

Topics Research in Fire and Life Safety”), and it received 3 semester hours in the upper division 

baccalaureate degree category. The other is a 6-week online course (M0576, “Training Program 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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Design”), which received 3 semester hours in the upper division baccalaureate degree category. 

This year’s ACE review is scheduled from Dec. 5 through Dec. 9. ACE will let them know if those 

dates work. Ms. Warren stated that she does not have the list of courses that will be reviewed, but 

it can be provided if needed. 

Dr. McIntosh asked how many courses in total had been reviewed by ACE. Ms. Warren stated that 

she did not have that information at hand but could get it. Mr. Rich stated that almost all the NFA 

courses are ACE review courses.

Chief Butler asked what elements of instructor demographics were collected for reporting. Ms. 

Warren replied that what they had requested so far is where they are in the country, how many do 

they have, which curricula areas do they go to, etc. Ms. Spangler asked whether they could collect 

gender and race. Ms. Warren replied that she was not sure, but she could ask about that. 

Dr. Macey asked, from the perspective of the NFA, what DEI looks like and what it means. How 

does the NFA measure it, and how will they know of its success? Ms. Warren replied that in the 

overall strategic plan, they all have DEI initiatives. They are looking at what it looks like in practice 

and how to implement it and what their metrics would be for that. They are still in the working 

phase. They do know that there is an issue there. They do not have those actual goals set yet, but 

they are working on them. Dr. Macey asked if they had defined the terms. Ms. Warren replied they 

do have the FEMA definitions for DEI, but she does not have them with her. Mr. Gabliks stated 

that they need more diversity on campus. They need more women, more people of color and more 

representation outside the mid-Atlantic states. There are a lot of factors to that issue. Mr. Gabliks 

stated that he spoke at the Black Chief Officers Committee (BCOC) Conference last month. There 

were 3 people that said they would be interested in working at the NFA. The question is, would

they get through the hoops and come to work on campus? Most of the instructors that work on 

campus now are white, male and retired. 

Dr. McIntosh stated that DEI has always been a discussion, so why not put it on the agenda for 

next year? They have had people that have come to campus and said, “Nobody looks like me,” and 

they do not feel welcome, so they do not come back. They want to have a place where everybody 

feels welcome. Mr. Gabliks stated that it is that way with instructors and students. 

Chief Quinn asked how long they had been doing ACE reviews. Mr. Rich replied probably more 

than 6 years because they were doing it before he started on campus. There is a 3-year cycle with 

ACE, and they try to get all the courses back through. New and updated courses have to go through 

the ACE review process. There is an uptick in the ACE reviews because the 3-year cycle is 

catching up, and the new stuff is being added. Mr. Gabliks stated that ACE has been around for at 

least 10 years. ACE means having a third-party review on how the courses are doing. Dr. Rivero 

stated that he believes the ACE reviews go back to 2008. It is a very productive program and has 

been going on for a while. 

Ms. Warren stated that if anyone thinks of more things (data points) they want to know, just let 

her know. Her branch is the keeper of the data for the NFA. Mr. Gabliks stated that admissions 

does collect race on the students. 
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Dr. Macey asked Ms. Warren if she were sitting where the Board of Visitors is, what question she 

would ask. What is something that keeps her up at night? Ms. Warren stated that the thing that 

keeps her up at night is that they are very data rich. Some data they have to put in the system from 

paper records. They have been able to get the Excel data in raw form to analyze. She stated that 

they have a lot of dead capital, and they do not get to use it as effectively as they can. Ms. Warren 

stated that she would love to hear what data everyone is looking for because she will go on a search 

to find it or find a way to collect it. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that he will cover the Education, Training and Partnerships Branch that Mr. 

Ken Farmer used to take care of because Mr. Farmer retired. 

National Fire Academy Updates on Education, Training and Partnerships Branch

Mr. Eriks Gabliks, Superintendent, National Fire Academy

Mr. Gabliks stated that the challenges they have had are related to the number of retirements. They 

are going through the process of recruitment. Where they are at right now is that they pick their 

number and wait to move forward until the recruitment is opened. It can take up to 6 months just 

to get a position in the system to be able to recruit it. There are people that say they would love to 

work on campus, but they are from Utah, and the training specialists need to be on campus. Mr. 

Gabliks stated that he would discuss NFA Online, state fire training grants, Fire and Emergency 

Services Higher Education (FESHE), state weekends, and off-campus deliveries.

Mr. Gabliks stated that with FESHE, they are reimaging the position that used to be the FESHEonly position. They have kept that position vacant from a cost-saving standpoint. They do have a 

budget, but they do not have enough budget to cover salary and benefits. So, the NFA has to keep 

2 positions vacant at all times to cover that. They are merging FESHE and state fire training grants 

together. Then they will have a FESHE component and a state fire training grant component. Mr. 

Gabliks stated that they have currently more than 100 colleges and universities involved in FESHE. 

They want to build that because they know there are programs that are not engaged with the NFA. 

There are many colleges and universities that do not offer FESHE but would love to be a partner 

with the NFA. For example, the EFO Program; if a school offers a master’s degree in public 

administration, why is the NFA not working with them as an added value for the students and fire 

and EMS? So, they are going to have discussions about articulation agreements with those colleges 

and universities. The NFA is not an academic institution, but if they were partnered with a college 

or university that recognized the EFO Program and took so many credits, why wouldn’t they do 

that and add value for the students? They want the position when they fill it to interact with the 

ACE process. It makes sense because of the relationship with the colleges and universities. They 

still have fire and EMS programs that do not know that NFA exists and do not know what the NFA 

does. They have seen a growth in homeland security and emergency management degrees. They 

want to work on that and be a partner with EMI higher education. The Fire Department Instructors 

Conference (FDIC) has offered FESHE a place to have their symposium in 2023 and fold it into 

their conference. Mr. Gabliks made it clear to the group that while there is nothing preventing 

colleges and universities from doing that, they cannot do that as a federal agency. They cannot 

cross a bridge and endorse a conference by saying this is the NFA FESHE Symposium at FDIC. 

They would have to do it differently. Mr. Gabliks stated that there would be a lot more added value 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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to go to FDIC. They could have an NFA FESHE meeting at FDIC without endorsing the 

conference.

Mr. Gabliks stated that the state fire training grants were being rolled out on that day. There would

be $20,000 allocated to each state that allows them to deliver NFA classes. They are updating the

reporting requirements and processes. They plan to ask the states how many people they trained 

and what area they train in. They want to be able to point out the return on investment with the 

$20,000. Some states do not take the $20,000 grants from the NFA as the amount of overhead it 

would take to process the grant does not make it worthwhile. In some states like North Dakota, the 

$20,000 is a big deal. If they take that money and deliver 10 2-day classes to career and volunteer 

firefighters and emergency medical technicians, that is a benefit to them that they did not have. 

The grants reach more than 10,000 students each year.

Chief Butler asked if the money could be repurposed if it did not get used. Mr. Gabliks said it 

could be. If 40 states accept the money and 10 do not, they could reinvest the funds into NFA 

classes, and most of those are done off campus. They send out updates to the state partners saying 

that they are offering 100 additional classes. Some states are active and will take the extra classes,

and some states will say they have enough. They could also invest that money into developing 

courses on campus. If courses need to be updated, then they have the money they could use for 

that. When a state gets the $20,000, and they only use $10,000, then that money will be lost. 

Mr. Romaine asked if the money that is not used could go to grants and then be given to another 

state that could use it. Mr. Gabliks replied that it could not under the current system because they 

would have to issue a notice of funding opportunity. It takes time to do the paperwork. And then 

how would that be judged? They are not set up to give $12,000 or $15,000; it is $20,000. They do 

not have the staff or process to manage that because of all the different costs in different states; it 

is too much to factor in. If the states apply for the grant, then they can get the $20,000.

Dr. Macey asked whether they looked at the pueblos and tribes differently. Mr. Gabliks replied 

that they did not. The tribes are not included in that grant because there are more than 100 tribes 

across the country. It is only opened to the 50 state training systems, which includes the territories. 

They expect the states to reach out to the tribal fire and EMS agencies in addition to the municipal 

fire departments, etc. 

Dr. McIntosh asked if that was explicit to the contract agreement. Mr. Gabliks replied that he had

not looked at that. They have had discussion with the states on that, and they do include the tribal 

agencies. They do have some tribes that choose not to engage with their state system because of 

their sovereign nation status. Each tribe is different with their relationships. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that state weekends are getting back to normal. They had canceled a number of 

weekends this year and pushed classes back into the states. All states are coming back in 2023. 

From October on, all the states that were always on campus will be back. They will be offering 

more of the national weekends — there is an interest in those — as their budget allows. State 

weekends are not expensive because they are 2 days. They are looking to add focus weekends. An 

example would be to have a leadership weekend with different leadership classes or a commandand-control weekend, etc. They have reached out to Women in Fire and discussed having a 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

14

women’s weekend at the NFA. That will give an opportunity for them to share what they are doing 

plus give the NFA the opportunity to work on diversity issues. They are careful about not doing 

the national weekends at the cost of state weekends, so they do understand the demographics there. 

They are having discussions with states that do not get big numbers, and they are opening up their 

classes to other participants. The national weekends also bring a lot of diversity into the classrooms 

because they are from different states, and different states do different things. 

Mr. Dubay asked how many national weekends are being hosted. Mr. Gabliks replied that they 

have only done maybe 3 so far. They would like to try to offer 1 every quarter. That will blend in 

with the 20 or so state weekends. Mr. Gabliks stated that he had people this weekend say that they 

did not know that the NFA did those classes. People are saying that they do not know who their 

state training provider is. There needs to be more communication. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that with off-campus classes, each state gets 9 2-day classes, and each region 

gets 3 6-day classes. They have reallocated classes because of COVID-19; some states were not 

doing these classes in state training, so they put them back in the system and other states got 

additional classes. All the state fire training academies work differently. They have a new 

partnership starting with the New York City Fire Department (FDNY)/New York State Academy 

of Fire Science. The NFA will be bringing 2-day classes and eventually 6-day classes to the FDNY 

and academy. New York City is interested in getting involved again as they have not been for a 

while. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that they had offered a lot of Zoom classes. The benefit was that it allowed 

them to stay relevant, and they did not have to close the doors of campus. They did reach career 

and volunteer fire and EMS providers in parts of the country who had never been to an NFA class. 

Zoom does take away the worries and issues involved in traveling to places. They have also had 

international people involved in the Zoom classes. Mr. Gabliks stated that one of Mr. Rich’s Zoom 

classes had someone from the Bahamas. Mr. Rich stated that they also had someone from 

American Samoa, and that person would wake up at 2 a.m. to take the class because of the time 

difference. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that they needed to add more classes to the “display case.” The 6-day classes

are really the display case and get a lot of people to come to campus. The display case is a little 

thin and stale, so they need to add some classes. They need to bolster the 2-day offerings and do 

more in that area.

Mr. Dubay asked if the regional deliveries were based on the FEMA regions. Mr. Gabliks replied

that they were. The NFA has a co-chair in each of the regions in fire and EMS. They get a list and 

figure out from the states and metros what they want to have in what region, and the NFA will 

bring those classes to that region. 

Dr. Macey asked whether the NFA wanted to offer more than 9 classes or if they wanted to change 

the types of classes being offered. Mr. Gabliks replied that his primary goal was to put more classes 

in the display case. They have heard that people want newer classes to choose from. They have 

the same people from the same states that keep coming and taking classes because they have been 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

15

updated, but they want something new. They could always use more classes because, with training,

it is never done. People can always learn more. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that they are still working through the process of Blackboard. They are trying 

to connect 3 different federal systems with Blackboard. It is different from a college because the 

NFA has the security hoops. That system is moving forward. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that they have a strong partnership with the National Wildfire Coordinating 

Group (NWCG). They manage the online courses S-130, “Firefighter Training,” and S-190, 

“Introduction to Wildland Fire Behavior,” for the structural wildland partners. Students could take 

the academic portion of wildland urban interface (WUI) firefighting and get those out of the way 

and then go to the training ground and do the hands-on part. Mr. Gabliks stated that in FY 2022,

more than 35,000 people completed some kind of an online class as of Aug. 10. There were 387 

new registrations between Aug. 1 to 8. 

Mr. Romaine asked if they had an idea of the breakdown between the classes. Mr. Gabliks replied

that they did not but that he could get that information. Mr. Gabliks asked if there were any more 

questions. There were none. Mr. Gabliks turned the meeting over to Mr. Rich with the Response 

Branch.

National Fire Academy Updates on Response Branch

Mr. Lester Rich, Branch Chief, Response Branch

Mr. Rich stated that he would go over the curricula that are in the Response Branch. Incident 

management and coordination have R0305, “Type 3 All-Hazards Incident Management Team,”

and there are a couple of developments going on. There is an entry-level all-hazards incident 

management team (AHIMT) course and a qualification team course. That is FEMA-initiated, and 

they are involved; it will be piloted at the end of the month. FEMA is looking for a search and 

rescue model for the AHIMTs and wantsto make sure they are qualified. The AHIMT qualification 

course will be for that reason. More on this will follow. Mr. Rich stated that part of the campus 

tour would be in Building S to see the new simulation equipment. 

Chief Quinn asked if that course would be Type 1. Mr. Rich replied that it is Type 3. Mr. Gabliks 

stated that NWCG has the Type 1 and 2 national team. Type 3 is AHIMT, and they have a 

partnership with NWCG that is going to adopt the AHIMT-NFA-FEMA standard and move away 

from the NWCG traditional standard. They have run out of teams and people. They are realizing 

that there are not only structural fire agencies but also government agencies. The Beltway region 

has a number of incident management teams. They are looking to bolster capacity for all-hazards. 

Mr. Rich stated that another curricula area is EMS. There is a plan in the works that will expand 

the EMS cadre in the NFA, and it will include a training specialist. It will be an additional training 

specialist and an additional program support person for EMS. Fire and Investigative Sciences is 

the investigation curriculum, and that continues to move along with the Bureau of Alcohol, 

Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) partners. They are also short staffed, so that makes the 

NFA down 1 full-time ATF agent. They are looking to add some 2-day courses to the Fire and 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

16

Investigative Sciences curriculum and the Hazardous Materials curriculum. They have a “Fire 

Investigation: Fire as a Weapon” course and a “Hazmat Response” course that are coming in as 2-

day courses, which they may roll out this year. The new curriculum expansion is Responder Health 

and Safety. About 3 years ago, that broke out into its own curriculum area. Mr. George Morgan 

had that curriculum area, and he has retired, so that is assigned to a current training specialist for 

now. The Planning and Information Management and Training Programs curricula areas are being 

covered by the Response Branch for now because of the staffing issue. 

Dr. Macey asked whether the AHIMT is a certification. Mr. Rich replied that it is a qualification. 

Mr. Rich stated that his understanding is that FEMA is looking at it based on the search and rescue 

model. They want to make sure that when all the FEMA teams are deployed, they have a list of 

federal resources to draw on to back stop and support FEMA AHIMTs. They want to make sure 

the AHIMTs are qualified. They want to make sure a team that has finished all their individual 

courses in EMI can function as a team and become qualified. Dr. Macey asked who qualifies them. 

Mr. Rich replied that it will be based on the curricula that was written through National Fire 

Programs (NFP), the NFA and FEMA. FEMA would be the qualifying agency. Mr. Rich stated 

that with the fire investigation courses, they do not certify students as an investigator, but they 

have an agreement with a professional organization that will issue a certification. Mr. Rich stated 

that there will be 3 teams coming in for the pilot for AHIMT. 

Mr. Rich showed a slide with some definitions and a table with staffing information on it. The 

asterisk beside EMS is because they are trying to bolster Mr. Mike Stern with another training 

specialist and maybe a program support person. Responder Health and Safety shows that it has a 

vacant position. Mr. Dave Donohue is covering Hazardous Materials as well as Planning and 

Information Management and the Training Programs curricula areas. Mr. Kevin Oliver is a new 

hire and has taken over the Fire and Investigative Sciences curriculum. Ms. Susan Denning is the 

Instructional System Specialist (ISS), and there is a vacant position for an ISS because Ms. 

Spangler got promoted. They have a program support specialist and an administrative person also. 

Mr. Rich stated that there are some courses under development. There are 3 hazardous materials 

courses scheduled for development this year. They are in a contract and waiting for funding. The 

curriculum overview for fire investigation that was done 3 years ago was delayed because of 

COVID-19. They are back to implementing those courses. The “Fire Investigation: Forensics” 

course is brand new and is getting piloted the third week of September. It will be like crime scene 

investigation for the fire investigator because they sometimes get caught up in floor patterns, blood 

spatter, etc. There is a spot near the burn range that is their “body farm.” They will have 4 shallow 

graves in there and some nursing mannequins, a body in a barrel (not real bodies) and some 

practical exercises for the forensic class. “Fire Investigation: Fire as a Weapon” is the new 2-day 

course that will be coming out. Every 3 to 5 years they will bring in a panel of nationwide experts 

to review a curriculum with the training specialist to make sure everything is on track, and that is 

happening for the EMS curriculum. Mr. Rich stated that they have purchased and installed the new 

simulation system. 

Mr. Rich stated that the last slide shows the courses that are going to be ACE reviewed. They are 

all courses that are rereviews or have been updated. They do already have credits. Those courses 

are:
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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• F/W0166, “EMS Functions in ICS.”

• R/N0147, “Emergency Medical Services: Incident Operations.”

• R/N0615, “Hazardous Materials Code Enforcement.”

• R/N0655, “Advanced Science of Hazardous Materials/Weapons of Mass Destruction

Response.”

• F/W0549, “Emergency Response to Terrorism: Strategic Considerations.”

• F/W/S0770, “Fire Investigation: First Responders.”

• R0772, “Fire Investigation: Essentials.”

Ms. Spangler stated that “Fire Investigation: Essentials” is the only 10-day course that they 

designed and completed internally without any contractor help. That was a success, and they are 

really proud of that. Mr. Rich stated that it is a popular class. Mr. Gabliks stated that there is a 

waiting list for that class. Mr. Rich stated that that class is unique in a lot of ways, and both 

firefighters and police officers take that class. 

Dr. Macey asked if “developed internally” means the NFA staff. Ms. Spangler replied that it does. 

Mr. Gabliks introduced Ms. Spangler; she is the branch chief of the Leadership and Community 

Risk Reduction Branch.

National Fire Academy Updates on Leadership and Community Risk Reduction 

Branch

Ms. Christine Spangler, Branch Chief, Leadership and Community Risk Reduction 

Branch

Ms. Spangler stated that she came to NFA from EMI because the system is so much better. It is 

much more effective when there is a training specialist who is a subject matter expert (SME), and 

they also have an ISS. She stated that not many places have that setup, but it is a great setup. 

Ms. Spangler stated that there were a couple of changes. They actually found a candidate for the 

EFO Program. Mr. Ed Kensler would be starting in October. He is a current instructor. The EFO

Program was divided into 4 years and managed by 4 different training specialists. She did not 

know why they had different people working on different things with EFO and Managing Officer; 

there was no consistency. That is changing, and Mr. Kensler’s primary responsibility will be EFO. 

The way they have designed the system will support that. Mr. Keith Heckler is the training 

specialist for Prevention, and Mr. Mike Weller is the training specialist for Community Risk 

Reduction. They are both passionate about those areas. Mr. Heckler has an asterisk because he is 

taking on the Executive Leadership Skills Series, and Mr. Weller is taking on the safety portion of 

the Managing Officer Program, the first course. The WUI position is new. The Planning and 

Information Management and Training Programs areas have Mr. Donohue as the training 

specialist, and they are now with Mr. Rich’s branch. Ms. Tina Crevier took Mr. John Carnagis’

place. Ms. Crevier is the program administrator. Ms. Crevier was in the position as course support 

and got promoted about 2 1/2 years ago. Mr. Daniel Novak is coming over from IT to fill the 

course support position, which will greatly help Ms. Spangler with the data analysis she is doing 

now independently. 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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Ms. Spangler stated that the Leadership and Community Risk Reduction curricula areas are:

• EFO.

• Managing Officer.

• Leadership and Executive Development.

• Community Risk Reduction.

• Planning and Information Management.

• Training Management.

• Fire Prevention: Public Education/Technical.

• WUI.

Ms. Spangler stated that they have not done a lot with WUI; they will not until they bring someone 

in that is split between command and control and community risk reduction. 

Ms. Spangler stated that they have some courses that are under development:

• “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in the Fire Service” (2-3 day).

• R/N0393, “Plans Review for Fire and Life Safety” (6 day).

• P0264, “Plan Review of Fire Alarm System Installations” (6 day).

• “Youth Firesetting Interviewing and Educational Intervention Strategies” (2 day).

• M5104, “Applications in the Exercise of Leadership: Capstone I.”

• R5204, “Applications in the Exercise of Leadership: Capstone II.”

The DEI class is going to be a 2- to 3-day class. They have engaged some national leaders in the 

area. They are waiting for the contract award. This would be the first of its own curriculum. There 

are a few plans to review courses and the youth firesetting course that is under development. Ms. 

Spangler stated that she will discuss more about the EFO Program as she goes on. They are in the 

final stage of the EFO Program. They have the community risk reduction curriculum review that 

is going on. A candidate that is participating in the community risk reduction curriculum review 

is an EFO graduate. He is recognized as a national expert, so he will bring a lot to the table. 

Ms. Spangler stated that the courses that are going for the ACE review are not new courses; they 

are going through for a second cycle. The only new courses are the EFO courses. All the EFO 

courses are going to be reviewed, and they are looking for them to be graduate courses. The courses 

going for ACE review are:

• R/N0385, “Applications of Community Risk Reduction.”

• R/N0378, “Demonstrating Your Community Risk Reduction Program's Worth.”

• R/N0671, “Managing Effective Fire Prevention Programs.”

• R/N0673, “Service Area Risk Reduction.”

• F/W0761, “New Fire Chief: Administrative Issues.”

• R/N0335, “Administration of Public Assistance for Community Recovery.”

• R/N0492, “Emergency Resource Deployment Planning (SOC).”

• R0506, “Executive Planning.”

• R5201, “Exercise of Executive Leadership: Self.”
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• R5202, “Exercise of Executive Leadership: Organization.”

• R5203, “Exercise of Executive Leadership: Community.”

Ms. Spangler stated that she got involved with the EFO Program in August 2021 as program 

manager. Mr. Rich had briefed out before that he was over both branches. They adopted a program 

management approach and released the existing EFO team. The training specialists that were doing 

it cared about it, but they were exhausted. When they let them go, it did put more work on Ms. 

Spangler, but it got them to where they are now. 

Dr. Macey asked what she meant by letting them go. Ms. Spangler replied that they were let go 

just from the EFO curriculum. EFO for 2 to 3 years was a team approach. They had all the different 

training specialists meeting on a regular basis as a team, and it was very difficult to come to 

consensus. Everyone was just getting worn down, and being short-staffed made it worse. There 

was a credibility problem with the EFO Program. The first thing they did was to review the existing 

course materials and student feedback. The feedback was the important part. What they found is 

that they only had 1 1/2 classes to show for it. That gave them a sense of where they were. 

Ms. Spangler showed a slide with comparisons of the programs. When she came on in August,

they had lost about half of the EFO students because they did not make it through Semester 1,

which was a red flag. When looking at it, in theory, it was good, but realistically someone could 

get a graduate degree in less time than finishing the program. Ms. Spangler was told that they 

switched to that program because they wanted a graduate PhD-type thesis for the research paper 

to push the field forward. They had to look at what they had and where they wanted to be. There 

was no infrastructure to support the old program. After doing the surveys, the second table on the 

slide is where they are now. 

Ms. Spangler stated that all of the old M-coded courses were terminated when they started 

restructuring things. They met with the instructors to gather feedback. At first, everyone was 

furious that they were being terminated and they realized no one was doing the same thing and 

everyone was on a different page. All the instructors are back on board and happy. Mr. Gabliks 

stated that that tied into a question Dr. Macey had earlier asked about the high dropout rate. Ms. 

Spangler did some digging and found out why. Ms. Spangler stated that she went back and started 

reading the needs assessments from 2016. They found that they were not addressing some of those 

needs. When the students were being communicated to, they were getting conflicting 

communication. They formulated a communication strategy and got the information out to share 

where they were with the EFO Program and that they still cared. 

Ms. Spangler stated that they have talked about the admissions system. They are using the 

application system as a registration system, and that is not what it is. When people apply to the 

EFO or the Managing Officer Program, they are not applying to a program; they are applying to a 

class. They historically set up a program that has requirements outside of those classes. Admissions 

can give a report on who finished the Managing Officer Program classes but not who finished their 

capstone. She stated that she had to go somewhere else for that information. Sometimes they did 

not even know how many EFO students they had or how many had dropped out, etc. They created 

a withdraw survey so that when they lost someone, they would get that survey. They built a new 

data tracking mechanism; it is very basic, and it is a spreadsheet. A lot of the student survey 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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feedback showed that the services provided by the NETC Library were very outdated. There was 

no fire science literature. They are looking to expand the research into public health and public 

administration. Ms. Spangler stated that the library did not understand why the students would 

need full-text articles. They are looking into partnering with some universities, but there is a lot to 

that process. 

Dr. McIntosh asked about partnering with the United States Naval Academy. Ms. Spangler replied 

that they have looked at that, but that is a different agency, and they have different security 

measures. They are looking into all avenues. There always seems to be a barrier of sorts. They 

have talked with Mount Saint Mary’s, and they may be able to help with some things. Unlike a 

university, they do not have any help for writing, and they do not want to cut someone out because 

they cannot write; they want them to succeed. When the survey was done in August, it showed 

that 33% of the current EFO students either had a graduate degree or were in a graduate degree

program. 

Ms. Spangler stated that they started redesigning the second course and put together contracts for 

the third course. They drafted a new handbook because they knew people would want to see one. 

Then they started planning the new capstone courses. The first course is R5201, “Exercise of 

Executive Leadership: Self.” The second course is R5202, “Exercise of Executive Leadership: 

Organization.” The third course is R5203, “Exercise of Executive Leadership: Community.” The 

first course is a 10-day course. That will stay a 10-day course because the students really need that

to help build relationships. They are making the next 2 courses 6-day courses. With those courses,

they do have about 40 hours of pre-course work. That is to not only inform them but to prepare 

them for the practical application. The mediated course surveys came back showing that the 

students had a lot of time constraints. They want to be able to work through those at their own 

speed. The pre-course work will be important for ACE accreditation on a graduate level. 

Mr. Dubay asked how Ms. Spangler would compare and contrast the 10- to 12-day mediated from 

the new model to the prior model. Is it that it is self-paced and not scheduled? Ms. Spangler replied 

that there are a lot of things. They did not take into consideration the amount of effort that it would 

take to complete the mediated portions. They gave more thought to the time put into the new 

courses because of all the writing and research. The times have been averaging out to about 40 

hours for the second mediated course. Some feedback they got with the first mediated course was 

that students did not see the application with a lot of what they were doing. With the mediated 

courses, the students had to meet every week. They had 2 papers due a week, so it was a lot. 

Ms. Spangler stated that they did stay with the self, organization and community parts. The R5203 

course was traditionally a community risk reduction class, and they really broadened that for this 

course with some public policy. The pre-course work is for students to do interviews from different 

facets of their community, and when they come to class, they are shocked at what they have 

learned. Ms. Spangler stated that the capstone is set up to be similar to a graduate degree, and at 

the end, the students will have a research paper, portfolio and a presentation. The difference 

between this one and the old one is that it is specific to their research and topic. The thinking in 

that course is to really prepare them for the research paper.
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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Ms. Spangler stated that since January she has been meeting with all the Year 4 legacy students 

from every class that they had. Those meetings were very informative. It was very apparent that 

the Applied Research Project (ARP) process was falling apart. It was a good process, but the 

administration of it was not good. Before the students would come to take their resident 6-day 

course, they would turn in their paper and portfolio. They would do a presentation in the last 6-

day course. They would make it challenging, so it is not just a presentation. They would get to see 

everyone’s presentations. The final 6-day course would also include the Gettysburg trip. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that from sitting in on the debrief of the first community course, some students 

said that they did not have time for the community stuff; they were too busy. It depends on where 

they are from because they said in some towns, the city manager said it was their job and not the 

fire chief’s job. 

Dr. Macey asked if they worked on the capstone from Day 1 to the end, or whether they took the 

12 weeks to write the capstone. Ms. Spangler stated that they are made aware of it the first time 

they are on campus. They had one of the SMEs who is also a facilitator for the capstone come in 

and talk to the classes and let them know what to expect. They are doing incremental research on 

their projects. They want them to be exposed to everything before their final topic. This program 

is going to be what they make it, and some students just do it to check a box. Ms. Spangler stated 

that it is amazing to watch the growth. 

Dr. Macey asked whether the capstone is more of a project or a thesis. What does it look like at 

the end? Ms. Spangler replied that in the handbook they talk about the portfolio, research paper 

and presentation. It is consistent with what a lot of graduate schools are doing. For the portfolio,

they will pick some things they have worked on throughout the program, and they will write an 

introspective type of paper on that. For the research paper, they will pick a topic and do 

independent research on that. They will have to use peer-reviewed literature, not other ARPs, to 

support their topics. In the last class, they will do their presentation. The portfolio and research 

paper will be graded before they arrive as a resident. They do this so that if someone is really not 

doing well with the paper, they should not come for the course. Next month, they are piloting the 

first capstone course. Ms. Spangler stated that she is waiting to schedule the final capstone course 

to talk to the students about the first one. They would probably have to make a time between the 

first capstone and the second capstone for them to finish and have it graded. 

Ms. Spangler is scheduling everything for the students. She stated that she is not going through 

NFA Admissions. She uses Survey Monkey to query the students; they would give them some 

choices and then she builds around that. If she has 40 students interested in a January class, then 

she adds that class. 

Chief Butler asked if there was an increased focus on DEI in the EFO Program. Ms. Spangler 

replied that it is touched on very abstractly when bias is talked about in the R5201 course. It is 

addressed in the R5202 course. They have a fire psychologist who comes in and teaches a section 

(this person also helped with the rewrite of that section). Ms. Spangler stated that the students 

either like talking about it or they do not like talking about it. They had some issues with an 

instructor, and now they hand-pick the instructors for those classes. They have come up with 2 

levels of criteria for instructors. The practitioner has got to be a current chief or has been one within 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

22

5 years, or an academic person who has a higher-level degree or has a specialty degree in

administration, like a psychologist, etc. 

Chief Crowley stated that it is good that the DEI is within the course materials, but it needs to be 

stressed throughout the careers of the students and through their leadership. Ms. Spangler stated 

that Chief Crowley was 100% right. Ms. Spangler stated that it does naturally evolve because she 

watches it in the classes. They did not grandfather in existing EFO instructors. She has met with 

all the EFO instructors to see how they are at being a leader and at being open to DEI, and there is 

a whole list of things she lets them know about what is expected from them. 

Dr. McIntosh asked if the people who dropped out of the old program had been approached about 

the new program. Ms. Spangler stated that she had talked to people about coming back for the new 

program. So much time had gone by that they have moved on. Ms. Spangler stated that there is a 

comparison chart of the programs that does need to be updated. There is still a lot of writing and 

academic rigor, but it is distributed differently. Mr. Gabliks stated that there is more writing in the 

new program. 

Dr. McIntosh asked about the student who made it through the first capstone but may not be ready 

for the second. Is there an opportunity for people to stretch out their timeline? Ms. Spangler replied

that they could. The students who stay together in the cohorts form strong cliques that really impact 

the rest of their classes. They have talked about creating a community of practice once they get the 

learning management system up and running. This would be a place everyone could go and enter 

information, and it would have bios there for instructors. She stated that she would like to have 

something similar to doctors and dentists like where they could post their information, and the 

students could reach out to them. 

Ms. Spangler showed a slide that gave some information about how often they were offering 

classes. Sometimes they had the same classes going on at the same time. She stated that it had been 

a great idea to do this. Then they have 4 instructors on campus and then everyone gets to meet 

everyone in the auditorium, and it is a good networking experience. Ms. Spangler stated that when 

meeting with the Year 4 students, it became obvious that they were not doing anything for the EFO 

graduates, and they should be. They do have the symposium, and they are trying to build a better 

relationship with the EFO section of the International Association of Fire Chiefs. In September 

2022, Ms. Spangler would like to put together a quarterly EFO newsletter for posting on the 

website that will have alumni hotspot highlights. They will have updates of what is going on in the 

program, alumni highlights and instructor highlights. That will become a good networking tool for 

people. There will also be some revisions to the EFO admission process. They will have a website 

with the list of alumni. Ms. Spangler stated that she has found that people lie about being EFO 

graduates. She would like to have a website where there are students’ names and when they 

graduated, and if they would choose to have their names actively linked, they can. 

Ms. Spangler stated that currently they have 245 students. There were 89 that completed the first 

semester before COVID-19. They have had 239 class completions since January. 

Ms. Spangler stated that they do need to update their application process and criteria. The criteria 

are vague, and the rating system is extremely vague. They need to have a rating system that is 

transparent so that everyone knows what they are looking for. There needs to be an essay 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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component. They want to engage stakeholders, but they are not sure how. They need to do this 

very quickly. She stated that it needs to be consistent and transparent. The have engaged the EFO 

section for their input. She would like to finalize this before October. They need to have a definitive 

time for students replying and a definitive time for reviewing. Then it does not keep people waiting.

Dr. Macey asked about the current capacity. Ms. Spangler replied that that depends on how staffed 

they are. She thinks they should start smaller because once the last class is done, they can take a 

step back and have a group of people look at the curriculum as a whole. Maybe 100 to 200 people

— usually 200 — are accepted, and that is a lot. It will also depend on the criteria because they

seem to have changed with keeping the numbers at a certain level. They have to be quality-specific 

when they are accepting people.

Chief Crowley asked about the time frame from the completion of the application to the end of the 

program. Ms. Spangler stated that they were counting the start of the program from the time a

person finishes the first course. There are so many schedule changes all the time. From the time 

the student finishes the first course, they could finish in 2 years. They are giving 3 stipends a year 

to EFO students. If someone’s schedule allows it, they could finish 3 courses in 1 year and then 

just focus on the capstone. Chief Crowley stated that, on average, students could finish in about 2 

years. Ms. Spangler stated that without exact data, she does not like to make assumptions. They 

will need about 3 solid years to engage that. Chief Crowley stated that they will have a lot of 

younger generations coming into the profession, so that will make the people coming to the EFO 

Program a lot younger. Ms. Spangler stated that they want that. Mr. Gabliks stated that 2 people 

that took the classes last week had mentioned that when they take the next class, they would be in 

a different agency. Ms. Spangler stated that everyone here would probably be a stakeholder to 

whom they could reach out for help with the process. Ms. Spangler asked if there were any more 

questions about EFO. 

Dr. Rivero stated that the master’s degree program in his university was one of the first to transfer 

in 9 credits of the EFO Program. Some will allow students to transfer in 6 credits. They had people 

calling the project a master’s thesis. He stated that it should be specific because they had students 

apply for jobs, and the interviewer was asking what their master’s thesis topic was. When the 

person described the paper, supposedly it was not a thesis; it was a project. Dr. Rivero asked if the 

EFO Program is in line with what the people will need to move onward in the world. He stated 

that he knew 2 people who dropped the EFO Program because it was too confusing, and they are 

not going back. They were going to move on and get their master’s degree and move to the next 

level. 

Ms. Spangler stated that Dr. Rivero was right; it is not a thesis. Half of the instructors are not even 

qualified to grade a thesis. The current iteration of this does address everything that Dr. Rivero 

mentioned. Once the program goes through ACE review and it gets a graduate credit, then the 

schools will make the decision of what they will accept and what they will not. Dr. Rivero stated 

that the students should be aware of that information. Ms. Spangler stated that the current students 

are well aware of that. She stated that they do monthly Zoom sessions with EFO students where 

they can ask questions. They need to see what the ACE credits will be. She stated that she is 

contacted by schools that have an articulation agreement or MOU. They are trying to put together 

a template for the EFO Program. The schools will accept a certain level of credit, but the NFA 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

24

does not get any information. She would like for the schools to give an annual report of who is 

using that credit because there is no way to track it. If there were a formal agreement, they could

then collect that data. 

Dr. Macey asked if the capstone guidelines on the website were current. Ms. Spangler replied that 

they are the new guidelines. She stated that she compared the ARP with the thesis. She combined 

those and ran them through a bunch of faculty and a lot of different stakeholders, and that is how 

they arrived at where they are now. Ms. Spangler stated that the guidelines for the old thesis were

never finished. When they started the program, the rubrics were not even done. The rubric for this 

is different. If someone is not good at writing and they had a great idea and followed through on 

it, they would not fail. With the old rubrics, they would have failed. 

Ms. Spangler showed a slide with the Managing Officer Program numbers on it. She stated that 

the numbers were not accurate. They have 285 current students in the Managing Officer Program. 

Year 1 has 105 students, and Year 2 has 180 students. In the application period ending 2022, there 

was a total of 185 applicants; 94 applicants were accepted and 91 were rejected. They were not 

rejected because they were not qualified; it was because of space. They know they are going to be 

revising it, and they did not want the same problem as they had with the EFO Program. 

Ms. Spangler stated that the plan is to put together a package. They know this program needs a 

refresh, but they are not sure how extensive it needs to be. They need to engage stakeholders and 

put together focus groups to figure it out. They need to do a gap analysis. So many states are doing 

their own training, and they need to see what is out there, but they have not had time. They need 

to know what infrastructure is needed to support the program. The courses for this may be fine and 

just need to be made relevant. There may be other areas that they want more information from. 

Maybe there could be a group of courses that students could pick 4 from to complete the program. 

Once they finish the criteria, then they could apply for a certificate instead of the NFA tracking 

them. This is not available to all the students, so if they want to make it available to everyone, then 

how could they do that? They need to engage stakeholders to see what they think, and they need 

to think this through. Mr. Gabliks stated that some volunteers feel excluded from this. There could 

be an opportunity for online versus in person. The EFO is also interested in being on the Managing 

Officer Program redesign. Ms. Spangler stated that she is not a fire person so she would need help 

with it. Where does the Managing Officer Program stop, and where does the EFO Program begin?

The question they get all the time is where the students belong.

Mr. Gabliks turned the meeting over to Mr. David Brummett for the ethics briefing.

Ethics Training

Mr. David Brummett, FEMA Office of Chief Counsel

Mr. Brummett is the embedded attorney and the ethics counselor who advises the NFA and the 

Board of Visitors. Mr. Brummett stated that 7 out of 8 of the current Board of Visitors had had this 

briefing, and that there have been no ethics issues from any Board member this past year.
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

25

Mr. Brummett proceeded with delivering the annual Ethics Briefing as required for SGEs. The 

briefing consisted of a 42-slide PowerPoint presentation tailored for the Board by the Office of 

Chief Council.

Mr. Brummett offered to take questions from the members, either in the room or directly by email 

or by phone. Mr. Brummett thanked everyone for listening and concluded the briefing.

National Fire Academy, Superintendent’s Updates

Mr. Eriks Gabliks, Superintendent, National Fire Academy

Mr. Gabliks stated that what the Board of Visitors has heard from NFA staff is that they are moving 

to a student-centric approach. That is the number 1 item in the strategic plan for the NFA. There 

are some challenges the NFA is having with staffing, recruiting and hiring. There have been some 

challenges and successes on campus the past year. Health and safety; the NFA has never been 

through a pandemic, but they managed to get the campus open and running. They have never had 

a nurse, and now they have one. They are putting that in as a budget request to have a nurse on 

campus at all times. That is important because there was a student on campus this weekend that 

had chest pains. They have delivered training both on campus and off campus. They did a lot with 

Zoom. They did a lot of outreach and engagement with their stakeholders. They always want to 

engage with the Board of Visitors. They are trying to be more engaged with different organizations

as they update different programs. They want to get a second set of eyes to make sure they are 

meeting the mark. They want to maintain partnerships with national associations, and Chief 

Hoover and Dr. Moore-Merrell are all in with that. Dr. Moore-Merrell has really embraced the 4 

stars of the hotfoot logo: fire and EMS training, research, data collection, and prevention. They 

are creating partnerships with a number of different national organizations: NWCG, National 

Fallen Firefighters Foundation (NFFF), USCG, U.S. Secret Service (USSS), etc. The USCG has

sent some of their hazardous materials people to take the hazardous materials courses. The USSS 

has taken the I-300 and I-400, but they decided that they need more than that. They have realized 

that their incident commanders need more experiences. They want to send their top-level leaders 

and their middle managers to some classes. They want to come to campus instead of the classes 

going there because there would be too many interruptions. There have been a lot of retirements. 

They have had people that have been on campus for about 30 to 40 years. Mr. Smiley White has 

been at the campus for 51 years, and he is still as active as the day he started. He still teaches for 

Maryland Fire and Rescue, and he loves the organization. When there are a lot of retirees, a lot of 

institutional knowledge is lost. 

Mr. Dubay asked how many people would be at the NFA when it was fully staffed. Mr. Gabliks 

replied about 55 or more. What is misleading about the organization chart is the people who work 

on campus that are not on the chart. There is a lot of support staff on campus that are contractors. 

Mr. Dubay asked if they were having staffing issues too. Mr. Gabliks replied, yes, in some places. 

IT has had some turnover with staff and also the food service. There have also been businesses

around the area having the same issues with staffing. Mr. Rich and Ms. Spangler are dealing with 

the issues because there is no backup until they hire people. 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

26

Chief Butler asked how to address human capital in the report when the Board of Visitors 3-legged 

stool is physical planning, programs and funding. Mr. Gabliks replied that it is probably through 

funding. It comes down to time, money and people. There are not enough people on campus to do 

what they want to do, but they are moving forward. There is limited funding, so they are keeping 

positions vacant. The American fire service has more needs than they can deliver right now. Mr. 

Gabliks stated that they have said no to a number of things because they did not want to overextend 

or underdeliver because then there would be a problem. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that they had been doing a lot of conference presentations. There are a lot of 

organizations that they have given updates to, including:

• International Association of Fire Chiefs (IAFC).

• National Volunteer Fire Council (NVFC).

• International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF).

• International Association of Arson Investigators.

• North American Fire Training Directors.

• Congressional Fire Service Institute (CFSI).

• National Fire Protection Association (NFPA).

• BCOC and more.

Mr. Gabliks stated that they asked the NFA staff first if they wanted to give the presentation 

because it is a good professional development experience for them. They also get to share the work 

that they are doing with their stakeholders, and they get to go to conferences. They have been very 

active with conferences and expos as they move out of the pandemic. Some conferences include:

• Fire-Rescue International Conference.

• FDIC Conference.

• National Association of Counties Conference.

• League of Cities; this is coming up in a few weeks.

• NFPA; this is more international interest than national interest. There were 70 countries at 

NFPA, and most did not know what the USFA was. They are trying to figure out how the 

USFA works. 

• CFSI.

• Fire Expo in Lancaster, and this brings in about 10,000 people from the mid-Atlantic states.

Dr. McIntosh asked if there had been a significant increase over the past. Mr. Gabliks replied that 

there had been. It was also more direct. At the beginning of the year, they looked to see what 

conferences were happening and where they were and who was attending. There are some 

conferences that NFP covers that the NFA does not because the NFA does not have a stakeholder 

group there.

Mr. Gabliks stated that they were working with all their partner organizations in messaging. Dr. 

Moore-Merrell identified that their national partners message different things each month. It is 

confusing to the public because one is talking about candle fire safety, and another is talking about 

wood-burning stoves. Dr. Moore-Merrell and the communications team have created a 

communicator panel where they meet and discuss what the theme is for the month. The NFA has 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

27

been pushing out their information to all the infinity groups, like Women in Fire, BCOC, National 

Association of Hispanic Firefighters, and a new LGBTQ fire service group. They are pushing 

recruitments, class vacancy information and instructor recruitment out to them. They are giving 

them information to put on their networks. They have been involved in dozens of podcasts letting 

people know what the NFA does. 

Mr. Gabliks stated that he wanted to share one partnership that they had bolstered over the last 2 

years. They had strengthened a partnership with NFFF on campus. Twice a month, NFFF is having 

an open house on campus for students from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. A lot of students think NFFF is just a 

memorial, but it is more than a memorial. They are learning about its cancer prevention programs 

and its behavioral health resources. They are learning about line-of-duty deaths (LODDs) and the 

assistance that NFFF provides. Last week, 2 agencies that had students on campus had LODDs. 

The students can go to NFFF and ask them what to do on their end to make sure the families get 

assistance and what happens after the funeral, etc. The open house allows NFFF to share their 

work. Some people have mentioned the historic displays they have received from someone in 

California. There are 2 ocean-going containers that have fire memorabilia from across the world. 

There are 10,000 items in that collection. The classes are engaging and looking at LODDs 

especially in the health and safety arena. The students are doing a paper that focuses on a name on 

the wall, like how they died and how they could prevent it. They have 3 people from NFFF; one 

is going to Mr. David Millstein’s group with NFP, and the other 2 will be working with Ms. 

Spangler, focusing on the health and safety arena. They will have 1 of those people go through the 

health and safety curriculum to see how they line up with the 16 initiatives to make sure they are 

covering everything. They have added NFFF classes to their schedule on campus with the state 

weekends. This will give the students something new. This will bring more students on campus 

and more professional development opportunities. 

Mr. Dubay asked whether people had taken advantage of those classes and had they been well 

received. Mr. Gabliks replied that they had. There are people that do not know that NFFF provides 

classes. Mr. Gabliks asked if there were other questions. 

Dr. McIntosh asked whether the students are partially back or fully back to campus from the 

pandemic. Mr. Gabliks replied that if he was using a number, it would be 65%. They have had 

classes scheduled that they postponed because of the on-and-off COVID-19 vaccination 

requirements. They had a plan to go back to 100% back in April or May, and then the numbers 

went up, so they just left it where they were. They told students that they would get back to them 

when classes were rescheduled. They implemented the red, yellow and green status. The red 

classes have 5 or fewer people, and if they do not fill it in a couple of days, they cancel it. When 

they cancel those classes, they let students know that there are other classes available that need 

students. Yellow means that the class is close to having enough people. Green means the class is 

good and ready to go. They hope to be at 100% by October. Mr. Gabliks stated that they will have 

a discussion with FEMA medical since there are new Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

guidelines on vaccinations, and that will be on Chief Hoover’s list. 

Mr. Dubay asked how many students would make up 100% capacity per week, and he asked how 

many classes that would be. Mr. Gabliks replied that there is now an average of 5 or 6 classes.

They would try to bump that up to 7 or 8 a week. Mr. Rich stated that the classes have different 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

28

numbers of people, so he could not be sure exactly on the number of students. They are now 

scheduling the 6-day classes in addition to the 10-day classes. There are only 4 10-day classes that 

are consistently full. They have thought about getting away from the 10-day and mainly having 6-

day classes because of time commitments. Mr. Dubay asked how many there would be if every 

bed had a head. Mr. Gabliks replied 400. Dr. McIntosh stated that that number is both EMI and 

NFA. Mr. Gabliks stated that the partnership with EMI and NFA had never been better. They both 

move across campus like there is no big deal because they are all FEMA components. They are on 

the same page, and if it is a classroom and one or the other needs it, then they use it. There are 

times when there may be 300 NFA students and 100 EMI and times when there are 300 EMI and 

only 100 NFA students. They may not run some classes if they cannot sustain them internally. If 

they are still down that many training specialists, they will not be at 100% capacity in October. 

Mr. Rich stated that there are also some construction projects planned that will affect the number 

of students. There were no other questions. 

Mr. Gabliks turned the meeting over to Mr. William Troup.

U.S. Fire Administration Data, Research, Prevention and Response

Mr. William Troup, Branch Chief, Emergency Response Support Branch, U.S. Fire 

Administration

Mr. David Millstein, Branch Chief, National Fire Data Center, U.S. Fire 

Administration

Mr. Troup stated that Mr. Richard Patrick sent his regrets for not being at the meeting. There were 

a lot of things going on in NFP. They partner with just about every major national fire service 

group, including NVFC, IAFF, IAFC and many other organizations; they are working on a lot of 

projects. They look at emerging issues, and if there is a problem, they try to develop a program to 

deal with it. Mr. Troup stated that he has looked at every single firefighter fatality and asked if 

there is a way the USFA could have prevented it. If not, then they will look to create a program to 

do so. 

Mr. Troup stated that 1 issue they are looking at is the electric vehicles with response, size and 

technology. They are partnering with the IAFF on a project that is funded by the U.S. Department 

of Transportation’s (DOT’s) National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. They do receive 

money from other federal agencies as well as generous benefactors across campus in performing 

a lot of research that benefits fire and EMS, as well as the citizens they protect. The electric vehicle 

response project is really a great initiative. They had the opportunity with the Montgomery County, 

Maryland, Fire Training Academy to bring a panel of national experts together like the scientists 

that deal with batteries, thermal runaway and the vehicles, as well as members of the fire and EMS 

and law enforcement. Law enforcement are often the first ones on the scene as well as DOT 

responders. They are also working with their partners with DHS Science and Technology, and they 

are going to look at some of the technologies and operational practices. They want to take those 

operational practices and technologies and see if they can do an operational field assessment. That 

will probably be a year or 2 down the road. 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

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Mr. Troup stated that he would like to talk about their great partnership with the NVFC on a study 

of the retention and recruitment of volunteer firefighters and EMS responders. They had done 

some great work with them on a lot of studies. They did an extensive study on volunteer retention 

and recruitment and are about ready to release the final report. At least 70% of firefighters are 

volunteers. There are a lot of challenges in a volunteer fire service. Mr. Troup stated that he is a 

40-year plus volunteer firefighter. It is an incredible challenge to retain and recruit firefighters. 

Mr. Troup stated that they are working on updating the “Guide to Funding Alternatives,” which is 

a manual on grant funding. That is one of their most popular documents. It provides A-to-Z 

information and a state-by-state breakdown on sources of alternative funding. Hopefully, that 

would be out by the end of the year. 

Mr. Troup stated that Mr. Michael Pritchard is the chief of the Prevention and Information Branch. 

They do a lot of outreach. They do the pictorial cards that provide illustrations on fire and life 

safety practices. Mr. Troup stated that in Los Angeles, there are some 200 languages spoken. The 

pictorial cards can be used universally across the city of Los Angeles or anywhere. Mr. Gabliks 

showed some examples from the website. 

Mr. Troup also showed some examples of the pictorial cards for fire and injury prevention efforts. 

Falls are a big issue in the fire service. There are a lot of calls for people falling in general. There 

are other things like cooking, smoking, escape planning, carbon monoxide, etc. There are a lot of 

multicultural things in Fairfax County. Mr. Troup stated that in his community, they had a large 

Hispanic population. The pictorial cards would benefit everyone in the fire service. 

Mr. Troup stated that they are also doing podcasts. They are doing a series of podcasts on a monthly 

basis. They have done a few with Dr. Moore-Merrell and Chief Hoover on the new leadership and 

focus of the USFA. The one they did last month was about the research program starring Mr. 

Troup. The podcasts have a wide variety of messages. It is not just the USFA staff that are doing 

the podcasts; they have outside experts come in and talk about things of interest. 

Mr. Troup turned the meeting over to Mr. Millstein.

Mr. Millstein stated that this is his second time speaking with the Board of Visitors. The first time 

was 4 years ago when he was a new federal employee. It was good to be back on campus in a 

different role. He is the branch chief of the National Fire Data Center. There are a lot of things 

they are looking at from the data perspective. He has been working with the National Fire Incident 

Reporting System (NFIRS) at the national level for about 20 years — from being a contractor 

doing the NFIRS support to being on campus federally as NFIRS support and now as a branch 

chief. His fire service background is 20 plus years — both volunteer and career firefighter. He 

retired out of Frederick County, Maryland, in 2018. He has served in roles from a paramedic to 

chief officer. He has not only handled incidents from boots on the ground operationally to using 

the data locally, but also at the county level all the way through the national level. There are a lot 

of facets to fire incident data. Mr. Millstein stated that his undergraduate degree was in business. 

He also has a recent Master of Science in Emergency Management. With his background, this 

education — coupled with experience — is extremely useful in driving the future of fire incident 

data. 
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Mr. Millstein stated that they are looking to enhance the fire department registry for not only the 

data collected but also for the useability of the data. The fire department registry is a collection of 

fire department demographic data that is geocoded for specific location information and the types 

of assets used by the department, as well as the training levels of the responders. 

Firefighter fatality reporting is an ongoing project. They are currently working on the 2021 annual 

report with the NFFF. 

The NFIRS needs assessment project is being done by a contractor looking at the use and users of 

NFIRS, and it is currently in draft form. This is a really in-depth, no-holds-barred look at what 

NFIRS is, what it is not and what it needs to be to move forward to benefit its stakeholders. NFIRS 

is tricky because it is not just for firefighters, fire departments or municipalities; it is for a large

and interrelated group of stakeholders, part of a much larger NFIRS “ecosystem.” A new vision of 

NFIRS is taking shape and is taking a fresh look at aligning the data collected with the methods of 

collection and what is needed by USFA and all the stakeholders. This NFIRS realignment with 

stakeholders does correspond with the visions of Dr. Moore-Merrell and Mr. Millstein. 

Mr. Millstein stated that in terms of data and analytics, they are investigating new ways to look at 

and compare data. They are trying to find some of the interesting interrelationships that may be 

impactful to the response community and the citizens of the U.S. and beyond. One example is a 

socioeconomic data study that looks at the relationship between socioeconomic status and fire 

incidents. It is something that has been done previously, but they are taking a fresh look at it. These 

are types of things that they would be moving forward with — trying to identify and address the 

interrelationships that they may not even know exist yet, and it starts with an exploration. Mr. 

Millstein stated that was all he had and asked if anyone had any questions. 

Dr. Macey asked if Mr. Millstein was familiar with the New York City open data and whether that 

was what they are moving to. Mr. Millstein replied not necessarily. Moving forward they were 

going to focus on what types of information would be needed based on the various stakeholder 

groups. “Stakeholders” meaning the fire service both at an individual level and at an agency level, 

and including groups such as NVFC and IAFC; academia; research; federal; and state, local, tribal 

and territorial partners. Mr. Millstein stated that the data analytics group met with the Fairfax 

County data analytics group, and they asked them questions about what it is they do and how they 

get their data. They said that they use NFIRS data but not all of it. A lot of the information they 

get is going to be ”seeded” or connected from other data sets. This includes leveraging technologies 

such as machine learning. There is a program in the state of Virginia to take pictures of every 

stretch of highway every so many years. How do they identify where the fire hydrants are? Do 

they send out someone on light duty with a GPS to record the location or do they use something 

like machine learning and train a computer to identify the fire hydrant and then identify what that 

geocoded location is? Now it is known that the fire hydrant is there. Next year pictures are taken 

again, and the fire hydrant is not there. Does the fire department know that it is not there?

Dr. Macey asked if it is the community’s and public’s data. Mr. Millstein replied that the data 

belongs to the fire department. Dr. Macey asked why not share that data with the public, wherein 

quantitative analysts and others can easily access the data? Why do they not have open access to 

it? Mr. Millstein replied that they do. The public data release is requested via CD or DVD. It is 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

31

also available through OpenFEMA as a direct download. The disadvantage of OpenFEMA is the 

loss of the introductory materials that would help someone who is unfamiliar with data analytics 

understand what the data is. They just closed out the 2021 data. By the time the data gets in the 

system, it is 1 year old, a challenge the new vision of NFIRS aims to rectify.

Dr. Macey asked if anyone was mining it. Mr. Millstein replied that a lot of different people mine 

it. There are hundreds of requestors that pull that information for various reasons. There were no 

other questions. Mr. Troup stated that if anyone had any questions or needed anything to let him 

know.

Chief Butler turned the meeting over to Chief Quinn.

Board of Visitors Subcommittee Activity Reports

National Fire Incident Reporting System

Chief Kevin Quinn, Chair

Chief Quinn stated that Ms. Kathy Patterson had a criteria development meeting about a month 

ago on campus. One of the sessions that Dr. Moore-Merrell was at the whole day was on the data 

and modernization in terms of updating the interrelationships. He stated that it was one of the most 

exciting days he has spent with the fire service in terms of its future and where Dr. Moore-Merrell 

sees this moving from where they are to where they will be, and it is an exciting place. Chief Quinn 

stated that Mr. Millstein mentioned a fresh look. They talked about that idea, and they put forth a 

lot of great suggestions that day. Dr. Moore-Merrell’s timeline seemed pretty scripted in what she 

would like to see happen. There are a lot of things going on, and it does tie into the subcommittee 

report. Basically, they are just watching and waiting to see where they go with the modernization 

of NFIRS.

Chief Butler stated that the fire department he is with is fortunate to have a built-out data analytics 

section. It is good to see the locals work with the staff to improve data analytics.

Chief Quinn stated that at the meeting they talked about being in the field and entering 5 or 6 clicks 

on a device and follow-ups with the fire investigator. It is really changing the ways they do business

in the field and on-the-go data collection. Chief Butler asked if there were any more questions; 

there were none. 

Professional Development Initiative Update

Dr. Patricia McIntosh, Chair

Dr. McIntosh stated that they were standing by to stand by. They had been charged with doing a 

deep dive into the Managing Officer Program, which has been on hold. She stated that it was 

exciting to hear everything that was happening with EFO and its changes. 
BOARD OF VISITORS FOR THE NATIONAL FIRE ACADEMY August 15, 2022

32

Final Comments/Adjournment

Chief Butler stated that there were no other comments at this time. Chief Butler turned the meeting 

over to Ms. Gartrell-Kemp. Ms. Gartrell-Kemp stated that the Board of Visitors members would 

now take the campus tour. Chief Butler thanked everyone for being there. Chief Quinn made the 

first motion to adjourn the meeting, and Mr. Dubay made the second motion.

The meeting was adjourned at 2:40 p.m.