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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

DISTRICT OF OREGON

THE HON. MICHAEL J. McSHANE, JUDGE PRESIDING

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

Government,

vs.

DANIEL STEPHEN JOHNSON,

Defendant.

)

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No. 6:14-cr-00482-MC-1

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

EUGENE, OREGON

Wednesday, May 2, 2018

Day 3, Morning Session

Volume 3A PAGES 154 - 204

DEBORAH COOK, RPR, CSR.

OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

405 East 8th Avenue

Suite 2130

Eugene, Oregon 97401

(541) 431-4162

Deborah_Cook@ord.uscourts.gov

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APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

FOR THE GOVERNMENT:

Jeffrey S. Sweet

United States Attorney's Office

405 E. Eighth Avenue, Suite 2400

Eugene, OR 97401

541-465-6771

Fax: 541-465-6917

Email: Jeff.sweet@usdoj.gov

Lauren E. Britsch

U.S. Department of Justice

Criminal Division

1400 New York Ave NW, 6th Floor

Washington, DC 20530

202-514-2220

Fax: 202-514-1793

Email: Lauren.britsch@usdoj.gov

Ravi Sinha

United States Attorney's Office

1000 SW Third Ave, Suite 600

Portland, OR 97204

503-727-1014

Fax: 503-727-1117

Email: Ravi.sinha@usdoj.gov

FOR THE DEFENDANT:

Craig E. Weinerman

Office of the Federal Public Defender

859 Willamette Street, Suite 200

Eugene, OR 97401

541-465-6937

Fax: 541-465-6975

Email: Craig_weinerman@fd.org

Lisa A. Maxfield

Pacific Northwest Law LLP

1255 NW Ninth Avenue, No. 11

Portland, OR 97209

(503) 222-2661

Fax: (503) 222-2864

Email: Lamaxfield@pacificnwlaw.com

*****

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WITNESS INDEX

Page/Line;

LS XXXXX

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continuing)

BY MR. SINHA

163 4

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MS. MAXFIELD:

174 5

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SINHA

183 12

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MS. MAXFIELD:

200 3

EXHIBIT OFFERED INDEX

NONE

EXHIBIT RECEIVED INDEX

NONE

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PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, May 2, 2018, at 9:11 a.m.

THE COURT: We will go on the record. I've received

from the government a request for judicial notice regarding

per diem rates, witness fees, my understanding is theres no

objection.

MR. WEINERMAN: No, Judge, as long as it's clear

from the way it says to the jury that they are getting $99 a

day, so there's no confusion whether they are getting it. I

think they get something for $49 and something for $50, and

as long as they know the correct math of the total of $99 is

clear, we have no objection.

THE COURT: I think it's clear. In the -- how do

you want to present that to the Jury?

MR. SINHA: Your Honor, we would ask that the Court

read it to the jury when they come in this morning, and then

provide it to them for deliberations. I think there's a

pattern instruction on the 9th Circuit, but I am not sure

it's applicable here because I think this is like a

legislative fact, rather than adjudicative fact.

MR. WEINERMAN: Judge, I haven't been in this

situation recently, but I'm not sure the jury actually gets

documents that are not an exhibit. I think when you take

judicial notice or you stipulate, the judge reads the

stipulation or judicial notice, and that's it. It doesn't go

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back as a document. It's not an exhibit.

THE COURT: Well, I mean, generally we send

stipulations back, and this is really -- judicial notice is

really a stipulated fact. So I prefer to send it back, if

for the only reason I am going to be reading it to them, and

my voice is still not that great. And I would like to make

sure that they understand what fact is being noted here.

So I will work with Mr. Allnatt about what

specifically to send back.

Any other preliminary matters to discuss?

MS. BRITSCH: Your Honor, one matter, the defense

raised at the end of yesterday that the information from

SO XXX's attorney is potentially Brady, under Kyles and its

progeny. So I think we need to address that. The 9th

Circuit has said in a couple of cases that essentially when

there's no promise by the government to a witness, it's not

Brady material.

And that's primarily in the context of sentence

leniency where cooperating witnesses later on receive a

sentencing reduction. But the 9th Circuit and other courts

have said as long as there's no promise from the government

before that witness testifies, that's not Brady. And that

applies here.

And it's clear from Mr. Weinerman's questioning of

the witness yesterday and his answers that there's been no

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promise from the government of a visa or other citizenship,

so I don't think any other information from SO XXX's attorney

would be Brady in this scenario.

MR. WEINERMAN: Well, Judge, I think it's relevant

whether he has an expectation that he's going to be allowed

to stay in the United States.

I'm going to continue to reach out directly with his

attorney and find out what I can. And I am not accusing

anyone of any wrongdoing, but it seems to me that these

witnesses can get up there and say, deny or say, I don't

know. And then the next thing we know after they are done

here, they are going out and they are trying to stay in the

United States.

And I hope the Court will give me a little more

leeway for future witnesses to explore that, because I have

no indication that the government itself, the US Attorney's

office or the FBI, has promised them anything.

But I think any discussions that anybody from the

government has had with any of these witnesses about staying

here, about applying for visas, should be disclosed to the

defense.

And the government has, I believe, one witness, CCXX

XXXX asked if he could stay or apply for a green card, and

the government provided me a report.

So I am just saying expectations of the witness is

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relevant. And if the government is aware of expectations,

then I think the government should disclose that. I think

that is Brady --

MS. BRITSCH: Your Honor, the defense counsel had

ample opportunity to ask the witness about his expectations,

and the witness answered those questions. And for the

record, we have inquired of everyone on the trial team

whether they have had any discussions with the witnesses

about those issues, or made any promises. And nobody from

the US Attorney's office or FBI has made any promises related

to visa or citizenship.

There's one FBI agent we haven't had a chance to

ask. We will ask him today about that specific issue, as

well. And the witness, BT XXXXXXX is material. His A file,

everything related to his visa, has been disclosed to the

defense.

THE COURT: Thank you. I do agree with the defense

that if the government is aware of any promises that have

been made by a government actor, or even a third party to --

any promise to assist in providing a visa or providing some

kind of residency in the United States for the witnesses in

exchange for their testimony, the government needs to

disclose that. I think they have been doing that.

I mean, the only evidence so far is from SO XXX

which he testified an attorney spoke to him. He doesn't

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remember the attorney's name. He didn't keep the attorney's

card. He asked the attorney if he could go to school in the

United States, and it doesn't sound like there was any

follow-up conversation regarding that.

So the defense can continue to inquire about --

well, with each of the alleged victims whether any promises

have been made, whether they are making any attempts to

remain in the United States now that they are here, or now

that they have testified.

It may be that the government is going to want to

put on whatever this organization is to clarify for the jury

what their role is with victims. It's unclear to me, and

it's unclear to the jury, I think, what this program is,

Hagar, whether they were simply advocates for children of

sexual abuse, or if they provide other kinds of services like

immigration services.

I think it's probably unlikely, but it may be

possible. But obviously, one of the jurors had a question

about who this organization was, and what they do. We may

want to have some clarification on that subject.

MR. WEINERMAN: Judge, hopefully my last thoughts on

this are as follows. SO XXX is, I think, done as a witness,

although technically I don't think he's been excused. Maybe

the Court did and I just --

THE COURT: I haven't excused any of the witnesses.

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MR. WEINERMAN: My understanding is all the

witnesses are going to remain until May 20th. So that's

almost three weeks. It seems to me if the government becomes

aware between now and the end of the trial that SO XXX is

making some efforts to stay in the country, however he's

doing it, whether applying for a certain type of visa, I

think the government has to disclose that. The government

can't wall themselves off from that.

So if it comes to the attention of the government

between now and the end of the trial that SO XXX is

proceeding in that direction, that has to be disclosed to the

defense even though SO XXX is done as a witness.

THE COURT: I agree. If that becomes known to the

government, they need to let the defense know.

MS. BRITSCH: We agree, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We will bring the jury back in. And we

have LS X.

(JURY IN.)

THE COURT: We're going to return to the testimony

of witnesses, so go ahead.

LS XXXXX,

produced as a witness, having been previously duly

sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 163

(NOTE: Unless otherwise indicated, all answers

represented by "A" and "THE WITNESS" will be answers given by

the witness through the interpreter after translation.)

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continuing)

BY MR. SINHA:

Q Good morning. Thank you for coming back to speak to us

today. I don't have a lot of questions for you, but I do

have some. So we will go through those questions and then

Mr. Johnson's attorneys will have a chance to ask you some

questions.

Do you understand?

A Yes, I do.

Q The first thing I want to do with you is go through some

photographs, and talk to you a little bit about them. So I

am going to ask for Exhibits 1 through 10 to be brought up on

the screen in order. And we will go through them one by one.

MR. SINHA: I believe these have been admitted and I

would ask the Court to publish them.

THE COURT: They may be published.

Q BY MR. SINHA: So LS X, we're looking at Government

Exhibit 1. And who is the person in this photograph?

A It's my picture.

Q Do you know about how old you were, about?

A Five or six years old.

Q Let's look at Exhibit No. 2. Do you know the people in

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 164

this picture?

A I do.

Q So LS X, this is going to be kind of fun. You can touch

this screen, and it will make a mark.

So will you touch each one of these people on the

screen and tell us who they are, please?

A This one is Tola.

Q And that's the person in the orange shirt?

A Yes. This one is me.

Q That's the smallest person, in the striped shirt?

A Yes.

Q Who else?

A And the other two, I don't remember anymore.

Q So you have identified two orange shirts. You have

identified the tallest person and the shortest person; is

that right?

A Yes.

Q Let's look at Exhibit 3. LS X, who is this?

A That's me.

Q How old are you in this photograph?

A Five to six years old.

Q Where was this photo taken?

A At the organization.

Q And when you say at the organization, what organization

are you referring to?

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 165

A It was Hope Organization.

Q And when you -- we're going to talk a little bit about

where the Hope Orphanage was, but did you live with the Hope

Organization at three different locations?

A Yes.

Q So let's go to the next exhibit. This is Exhibit 4.

Who are these two people?

A My older brother and me.

Q What are you wearing in this photograph?

A Gray and white.

Q And do you know about how old you guys were in this

photograph?

THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. The interpreter says

gray and white, but it's gray and blue.

THE WITNESS: About five to six years old.

Q BY MR. SINHA: That's how old you were?

A Yes.

Q And where were you guys living at this time, if you

recall?

A It was at the same place. It was the first place.

Q And LS X, I think earlier yesterday, when we talked

about your age and when you moved to Hope, we thought it was

closer to when you were about seven years old.

A Yes.

Q Is it possible in these photographs that were taken when

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 166

you were living at Hope, that you were closer to seven years

old?

A Yes.

Q Let's go to the next exhibit, Exhibit 5, please.

So LS X, who is this and when was this?

A It's my picture during Christmas.

Q Where were you living at this time?

A That was also at the first house.

Q And about how old were you in this photograph, if you

know?

A The same thing, maybe five, six, or seven.

Q Let's go to the next exhibit, please. Okay, LS X, is

this you, as well?

A Yes.

Q About how old were you in this photograph?

A Maybe between eight and 10.

Q And you were living at the Hope Transition Center at

this time?

A Yes.

Q Let's go to Exhibit No. 7, please. Who are these two

young men?

A It's me and a friend of mine.

Q And about how old were you in this photograph?

A Eight, nine or 10.

Q And so this was also taken during the period that you

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 167

were living at the Hope Transition Center?

A Yes.

Q Let's go to the next photograph. How about this

photograph? How old were you in this photograph?

A That one, maybe I was nine, 10, or 11.

Q But that is you in the photo?

A Yes.

Q Let's go to the next photograph, please. Who is this?

A That's me.

Q And about how old were you in this photograph?

A 12 or 13.

Q But you were still living at Hope Transition Center

during this time, or you were gone, I guess?

A Yes.

Q Let's go to the next one, please, 10. And then finally,

this is you as well, correct?

A Yes.

Q I am going to show you three pictures of the Hope

Transition Center, next.

MR. SINHA: In the first one, 271, I would ask that

it be brought up and published to the jury, please.

THE COURT: All right.

Q BY MR. SINHA: Was this the first, second or third

location that you were with the Hope Transition Center?

A That was the first house for me.

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 168

Q How about Exhibit 272, please. This one, and the next

one will be published, please.

Is this the second or third house?

A Second house.

Q And then finally, the third one, Exhibit 139, please.

This seems like -- is this the third house?

A Yes.

Q So LS X, yesterday we talked about some difficult

subjects, and I am not going to ask you a lot of questions

about those today. I just have a couple of follow-up

questions.

Yesterday you told us about incidences in which

Daniel Johnson had sexually abused you, pretty much during

the time you were at Hope Transition Center.

A Yes.

Q Following those instances in which he abused you, did he

ever give you any food or money or gifts?

A Yes.

Q What did he give you?

A Sometimes cookies, and sometimes money.

Q Was that in the bedroom where the abuse was taking

place?

A Yes.

Q And how soon after the abuse did he give you money or

give you cookies?

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 169

A Sometimes immediately, sometimes a little bit after.

Q Did you understand that the money or the cookies that he

was giving you was, in part, because of what he had just done

to you?

A Yes.

Q So a better way for me to ask that question is, was

there a connection between --

MS. MAXFIELD: Objection; calls for speculation and

legal conclusion.

THE COURT: He can testify as to his understanding.

Q BY MR. SINHA: So what I would like to ask, LS X, did

you understand there to be a connection between the abuse and

the money and cookies that Daniel was giving you immediately

afterwards?

A Would you repeat that, please?

Q Sure. Did you understand the money and the cookies that

Daniel gave you after the abuse to be as a result of the

abuse?

A Yes, I do.

Q LS X, when Daniel was abusing you throughout this

period, and I think you said it was a few times a week, were

you ever scared that something bad might happen if you didn't

submit to him abusing you?

A Yes.

Q What types of things were you scared of?

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 170

A Like he did something to me, like police or something.

Q When you say he would do something to you like the

police, can you explain that a little bit more?

A Because of what happened, it happened, the same thing

over and over again, then it could cause the police to come

over. And then the police would ask -- and asking questions

in depth.

Q And were you scared that you were going to get in

trouble?

A Yes.

Q Were you scared of having to tell the police what had

happened?

A Yes.

Q Were you ever scared that if you didn't submit to Daniel

Johnson abusing you, Daniel Johnson would do you any physical

harm?

MR. WEINERMAN: Objection; leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: At times, yes.

Q BY MR. SINHA: What physical harm did you think he might

do?

A He pulled your hair.

Q Did he do anything else?

A No.

Q Did you ever see him physically harm any of the other

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Page 171

boys at Hope Transition Center?

A No, I haven't seen that.

MR. SINHA: Your Honor, if I could have just a

moment, please.

Q BY MR. SINHA: So LS X, I have a couple questions for

you. When Daniel Johnson was abusing you throughout this

period that you lived at Hope Transition Center, how did you

feel about Daniel Johnson?

A At times you didn't like him. And at times you loved

him like your father.

Q And why were the reasons that you loved him like a

father?

A Because he provided food, and schooling.

Q And when you didn't like him, what were the reasons that

you didn't like him?

A Because he violated me, and he sexually abused me.

Q And as you sit here today, how do you feel about him?

A I feel kind of like nervous.

Q I can understand that. Why do you feel nervous?

A I don't know. I just feel scared.

Q Are you -- as you sit here today, are you angry about

Daniel Johnson?

A No, I don't --

Q Have you forgiven him for what he's done to you?

A Yes.

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 172

Q LS X, why is it that you have been willing to come here

and testify today?

A Because I want to come and testify, and I want it to be

over fast.

Q What are you going to do once you are done testifying

and the case is over?

A Going back to Cambodia, and then continue my schooling,

just like usual.

Q And are you excited about going back to Cambodia?

A Yes.

Q Why are you excited about going back there?

A I get to continue my schooling, because I have been here

and I have been not going to school for about a month now.

Q Have you enjoyed your time in the United States?

A Yes.

Q LS X, has anyone talked to you about applying to live in

the United States permanently?

A No.

Q Is your testimony today motivated in any way by wanting

to live in the United States permanently?

A Well, I want to stay.

Q But are you testifying today because you want to stay?

THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, if the interpreter could

ask you to rephrase the question, because the word

"motivation" did not quite translate correctly.

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MR. SINHA: Okay.

Q BY MR. SINHA: Does your testimony today have anything

to do with wanting to stay in the United States?

A I still don't understand.

Q When you talked to the Cambodian National Police in

2013, and you told them that Daniel Johnson sexually abused

you, did you tell them that because you wanted to eventually

move to the United States?

A No.

Q Why did you tell them that?

A Because it was the truth, and on top of that, they were

asking the same questions over and over again, and I -- to

make me answer.

Q When you spoke to FBI Martha in 2014 and you told her

that Daniel Johnson sexually abused you, did you tell her

that because you wanted to move to the United States?

A No.

Q Why did you tell her that?

A Because I want it to be over, and because it is the

truth.

Q And then when you spoke to us yesterday and you told us

that Daniel Johnson abused you, did you tell us that because

you wanted to stay in the United States?

A No.

Q Why did you tell us what happened?

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A Because I want this story to be over.

MR. SINHA: One second. Thank you, LS X.

Your Honor, I will pass the witness.

THE COURT: All right. Cross.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MS. MAXFIELD:

Q Good morning, LS X. I am Lisa Maxfield, and I represent

Mr. Johnson. Do they call you LS X or Luke?

A LS X.

Q LS X, do you remember the day that the Cambodian

National Police came to Hope Transition Center?

A I don't. I don't remember. I don't remember very well.

Q That's sort of vague in your memory?

A Correct. I don't remember very well.

Q Do you remember how many police came? Was it many

police or just a few?

A Many.

Q And do you remember whether some of the children were

afraid?

A Majority of us who knew what was going on, we were

afraid. But the younger ones, they didn't know, so they were

just running around playing.

Q So the older kids who understood the seriousness were

afraid?

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A Yes.

Q And when you talked to the Canadian National Police, how

many police officers talked to you --

THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, you said Canadian.

MS. MAXFIELD: I made them Canadian.

Q BY MS. MAXFIELD: When you talked to the Cambodian

National Police, how many police officers questioned you?

A Four or five people.

Q Four or five people at the same time?

A So it was like there were three of them, so two would

walk around, arranging different things. And then one would

ask.

Q But they were all there with you, when you were being

questioned?

A Yes.

Q Did the police separate you from your brother, ES XXX?

A Yes, they separated us.

Q Did they separate you from any other children?

A Yes, they did. But some of the children were with me.

They separated us, and they came with me to live at another

organization.

Q Let's talk about while you were still being questioned

by the police. You said that they asked you questions again

and again and again. Did that happen at the Hope Transition

Center?

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A Yes.

Q So they asked you -- they would not stop questioning you

until you told them that you had been touched?

A Yes.

Q That was the only way to make the questioning stop?

A Yes.

Q And after all the questioning, it was late at night; is

that true?

THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, Counsel. Did you say

after?

Q BY MS. MAXFIELD: Yes, was it late at night by the time

the questioning was finished?

A Yes.

Q And after the questioning, did they put you on a bus and

take you to a new place to live?

A Yes.

Q Did you get to say goodbye to your brother?

A No, I didn't get to.

Q When you were living at the new place, your brother was

not there; is that true?

A Correct.

Q And while you were living at the new center, your

brother was not allowed to visit you?

A Yes.

Q They kept you and your brother separated for over two

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 177

years, didn't they?

A Yes.

Q Did anyone else in your family get to visit you at the

center?

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter was clarifying if

an aunt and uncle.

THE WITNESS: My family members did not, but my mom

and aunt came to see me.

Q BY MS. MAXFIELD: How many times did your mom and your

aunt come to see you?

A Once or twice a month, according to the time that they

had.

Q At Hagar, did they give you food?

A Yes.

Q And did they give you good shelter?

A Yes.

Q And did they let you go to school and pay for your

school?

A Yes.

Q Did the people at Hagar give you any money?

A No.

Q Did they give you any gifts?

A Yes, they gave me one.

Q What was that?

A Cologne and some stuffed animals.

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Q Was that for Christmas or your birthday?

A They were for Christmas.

Q Did you remember going to talk to, I believe you called

her FBI Martha?

A Yes, I do recall.

Q When you went to talk to FBI Martha, did your teacher

from Hagar go with you?

A Yes.

Q Did she sit in the room with you when FBI Martha asked

you questions?

THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, Counsel. Did you say

"he" or "she"?

Q BY MS. MAXFIELD: Was your teacher a she or a he? Let's

start there.

MR. SINHA: Could we approach and talk about

something real quickly, please?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Bench Conversation)

(Brief recess taken from 9:55 a.m.

to 9:56 a.m.)

THE COURT: Can you ask the question?

Q BY MS. MAXFIELD: Well, let's go back to the question.

Your teacher from Hagar who went with you to see Martha, or

FBI Martha, was that a man or a woman?

A There were men and women.

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Q Two?

A Yes.

Q So you had two teachers from Hagar with you?

A Some of them were not teachers. They were attorneys.

Q They were attorneys?

A There was an interpreter, too.

Q So in the room with you was FBI Martha, your teacher

from Hagar, a translator or interpreter; is that true?

A My teacher did not go in with me. Just myself, and FBI,

and interpreter.

Q You have talked with lots of lawyers over the last few

days; is that true?

A Yes.

Q Before you came to the United States, did you talk with

any lawyers?

A Yes.

Q Did you have a personal lawyer, or someone who was just

your lawyer that you talked with?

A I spoke with.

Q Do you remember that lawyer's name?

A I don't remember his name.

Q Did that lawyer call you on the phone, or meet with you

in person?

A In person.

Q And did Hagar pay for that lawyer?

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

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A I wouldn't know that. I don't know anything about the

payment.

Q Was that lawyer from the United States?

A Yes.

Q And when you talked with that lawyer, did you talk to

him about maybe moving to the United States?

A Yes, I did.

Q And have you talked with that lawyer since you have been

here, or another lawyer since you have been here in the

United States about staying here?

A I did.

Q Do you think there's some chance that you will be able

to stay?

A I hope, but I don't think I can.

Q You lived at Hagar for a little over two years; is that

right?

A Almost two years.

Q And then did you get to live with your brother, ES XXX?

A No, I didn't.

Q You never lived with ES XXX after Daniel's arrest?

A Correct.

Q Who do you live with now?

A I am currently living with the Water of Life

Organization.

Q And are there any people in this case who live with you?

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

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A I don't understand your question.

Q Yeah. Well, are any of the kids that you used to live

with at Hope Transition Center living with you now?

A You mean now, as in the US?

Q Oh, no. In Cambodia.

A No.

Q When you talked with FBI Martha, do you remember telling

her that you wanted to come to the United States to go to

school to be a doctor?

A Yes, I did tell her that.

Q Is that still your hope?

A Yes.

Q Before you got on the airplane to come here, did the FBI

give you $150 cash?

A Yes, they did.

Q And then last week, did you get $500 more?

A Yes.

Q And do you expect to get $500 again this week?

A Yes.

Q And do you expect to get $500 every week until you go

home?

A Yes.

Q Do you know when you will be flying home?

A I don't know.

Q When you lived at Hope Transition Center, were there

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rules for the children?

A Yes, there were.

Q And were some of those rules, you can't sneak out?

A You could leave. I mean, you could go out, but you just

couldn't go out too far.

Q And did you need to let the people in charge know where

you were going?

A Yes.

Q And were there other rules about no fighting?

A Yes, there was a rule.

Q And no stealing?

A Yes.

Q And no lying?

A Yes, there was.

Q And sometimes the punishments were stand against a wall?

A Yes.

Q And sometimes for the more serious breaking of the

rules, were you hit with a belt?

A Yes.

Q There was a time before Daniel was arrested when you got

in serious trouble with Daniel for stealing some money?

A Yes.

Q Do you remember that?

A I remember.

Q And on that time you were punished more seriously; is

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 183

that right?

A Yes.

Q And he hit you several times with a belt?

A Yes.

Q And that was just before Mr. Johnson was arrested; is

that right?

A Yes.

MS. MAXFIELD: I have no further questions. Thank

you.

THE COURT: Redirect.

MR. SINHA: Yes, Your Honor, thank you.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SINHA:

Q So LS X, thank you for speaking with us. I only have a

handful more questions.

So the first thing I want to talk to you about is

when you spoke to the Cambodian National Police officer, and

also when you spoke to the people from the organization that

is APLE, A-P-L-E.

That was the day on which Mr. Johnson was arrested,

wasn't it?

A Yes.

Q And was it prior to that day that you told Pastor

Sopheak that Daniel was abusing you?

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 184

A Before that day.

Q And I think you testified yesterday that it was a

couple -- or two or three weeks before Mr. Johnson's arrest

that you had told Pastor Sopheak that Daniel was abusing you;

is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And I think you also said yesterday that prior to Daniel

being arrested, you had told your brother ES XXX that Daniel

was abusing you; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And when the people from the Cambodian National Police

and APLE talked to you, did you feel pressured to make up

lies about Daniel Johnson?

A No.

Q Were there people who told the Cambodian National Police

and APLE that Daniel Johnson had not abused them?

MS. MAXFIELD: Objection; personal knowledge.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

Q BY MR. SINHA: Sure. Do you know if there were people,

kids at the orphanage, who told the Cambodian National Police

that Daniel had not abused them?

A I didn't know, because they interviewed us separately,

one individual at a time.

Q And when you say that they asked you the same question

over and over again, and I think you said something like

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 185

that's the only way they would stop asking, do you mean that

the way to make them stop asking was to tell them the truth

about Daniel Johnson, or do you mean that the way to make

them stop asking was to make up lies about Daniel Johnson?

A There were times that I told a lie, but there were times

that I told the truth. But I just didn't tell all of it,

just sparingly.

Q What was the lie that you told the Cambodian National

Police?

A I lied. I said that he did good, he did good deeds and

things like that.

Q Was that not true?

A Not true.

Q I want to talk to you a little bit about the

organization Hagar. Do you know what kind of organization

Hagar is?

A I do.

Q What kind of organization is Hagar?

A It is an organization to receive minors who have been

raped, violated.

Q And what types of things does Hagar do for those minors?

A Each minor has a counselor.

Q And what does the counselor do?

A Therapy, asking you questions, encouraging you, talking

to you, asking you questions.

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

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Q Okay. And what do you understand the purpose of those

things to be?

A They want to counsel you, they just want to know how you

are feeling regarding those issues.

Q And when you started working with Hagar, how long after

Daniel Johnson's arrest was that?

A I don't understand your question.

Q I am sorry. I will ask it again. Do you know how long

after Daniel Johnson's arrest Hagar started providing you

with services?

A Almost a year.

MR. SINHA: Your Honor, if I could confer with

defense counsel for a moment. Just one moment.

(Discussion off the record between

Mr. Sinha and Ms. Maxfield.)

MR. SINHA: Your Honor, I think we have a quick

matter to bring up with the Court.

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take a brief break.

We will be in recess for 12 to 15 minutes.

(JURY OUT.)

THE COURT: LS X, you can be excused for a moment,

if you will step out into the hallway.

MR. SINHA: So, Your Honor, the thing that I raised

with Ms. Maxfield, and I want to make sure we're staying on

the right side of everything before I ask it, is I would like

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 187

to ask the witness about his participation in the Cambodian

prosecution of Mr. Johnson.

Because, I think, we want to dispel any implication

that the services he's receiving from Hagar are as a result

of his participation in the United States case.

So yesterday when Mr. Weinerman was cross-examining

SO XXX, he asked SO XXX whether SO XXX had testified at the

trial of Mr. Johnson. And we have already got out the fact

of the arrest. And if I take -- I think the motion in limine

that Mr. Johnson's counsel followed, it was about entering

the conviction.

So we have no intention of obviously entering the

conviction, or even the fact of conviction. But the jury is

aware that Mr. Johnson was arrested, they are aware that

there was a trial in which he could have testified. And I

think that Hagar support that he received has nothing to do

with our case. It was all predating our case, to my

knowledge.

So what I would like to be able to do is ask if he

participated in the Cambodian prosecution, and if, unlike

SO XXX, he testified at trial.

MS. MAXFIELD: I believe that's beyond the scope of

my cross-examination. I was very careful not to talk to this

witness about anything that happened at the Cambodian trial.

I don't remember the conversation that he's talking

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 188

about that happened between SO XXX and Mr. Weinerman, and

perhaps he's better able to address the specifics of that.

THE COURT: My concern, Ms. Maxfield, is that your

cross-examination certainly suggests that LS X is developing

his facts based on an interest in moving to the United

States, and not in telling the truth in order to prosecute

Mr. Johnson.

Factually, he has testified in another proceeding

that has nothing to do with him coming to the United States.

I assume he testified consistently, that Mr. Johnson abused

him. And it seems to me, based on your defense, that he's

making this up in order to come to the United States, the

government can rebut that with, in fact, he said the same

story, made the same statements of abuse in a Cambodian

prosecution. So I will allow the testimony.

MR. WEINERMAN: So I want to supplement the record,

Judge, since we're getting to the opening the door thing.

Part of the discovery is a translation of the trial verdict

in the Cambodian case. And I think a reasonable

interpretation of the translation is that SO XXX testified in

that trial that there was no wrongdoing, or it says something

to the effect -- it's not in front of me, so I don't want to

be held to saying exactly what the document says.

But the document says, in essence, that SO XXX

either testified that Daniel Johnson did not abuse him or he

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 189

withdrew previous accusations. So that was the point of me

asking SO XXX yesterday that question to see if he would

admit that he did testify in that case.

We're dealing with a translation, but I think a

reasonable interpretation of it is that he did testify and

did testify in an exculpatory fashion as to Daniel Johnson.

He denied it. He said, I didn't testify. So I left it at

that, and accepted his answer.

So that was the point in bringing that up. I didn't

pull that out of whole cloth. There's a document that I

think a reasonable interpretation of it would suggest that he

did testify, and he withdrew any previous allegations of

sexual abuse. But that was the purpose of bringing that

question up, not what the government is claiming now has

opened up the door to them inquiring about what is happening

with Hagar.

THE COURT: Again, the relevance is that the defense

is alleging that he is making up the accusation in order to

come to the United States. When, in fact, he made an

accusation in a Cambodian Court that isn't connected to any

motivation that the defense is alleging. So I think we can

keep it somewhat limited.

I don't want the conviction coming in from the

Cambodia Court. I have already ruled on that. But I think

he can be asked if he previously testified in a Cambodian

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 190

Court, if the abuse occurred, did he testify consistently

with what you are telling us now.

The problem, I think, is listening to SO XXX is that

what they consider testimony is very different than the

proceeding that they are going through today. But being

asked questions in open court, my guess is that they made

statements that were given to the judge prosecutor who

considered them.

But it's unclear to me that -- what that testimony

looks like. So I think it probably would be more appropriate

that, did you make a statement to the Cambodian Court about

being abused.

MR. SINHA: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I just don't know what that -- maybe

explore what that looks like, but I don't know if that's all

that significant.

MR. SINHA: I don't want to misstate something to

the Court. I suppose I don't know the extent to which the

FBI may have communicated with Hagar at any point in this.

So I -- my point was basically that we think Hagar would be

supporting these victims regardless of the FBI and Federal

prosecution, and I believe that's true. But I don't know, I

suppose, just to be clear with the Court.

I have two other things I was hoping to raise with

the Court. One, we would ask the Court in terms of the

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 191

judicial notice of fact, we would ask if you could instruct

the jury after Mr. LSX steps down.

THE COURT: I plan on doing that.

MR. SINHA: And the other one is, there's a forensic

interview of Mr. LSX that's about 37 minutes long -- about

40 minutes long. And we think he's been asked -- we would

like to play it as a prior consistent statement, and then I

will --

MS. MAXFIELD: I am not impeaching him with any

prior inconsistent statement. I don't think I have opened

the door to them introducing the interviews that are

consistent --

THE COURT: Your cross-examination is certainly

aimed at suggesting to the jury he has a strong motivation to

lie to come to the United States, and I think that's enough

to bring in consistent statements.

MR. WEINERMAN: Judge, again, would it be a

40 minute interview? I mean, there's not 40 minutes worth of

statements. At a minimum, the government should have to

bring forward just the actual consistent statement, and

that's it. This is a long-ranging interview that covers a

lot of different subjects, and I would suspect that the prior

consistent statement would take up a minute or two.

MR. SINHA: So Your Honor, I think, if it were not

the case that they asked Mr. LSX about the people who were in

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 192

the room with him and tried to, I think, imply that there was

some coercive aspects or there were people influencing him in

the course of this interview, I think we're fine going

forward playing clips.

But for Mr. LSX, one, we think it's important

because we're talking so much about the forensic interview,

for the jury to see the entire forensic interview, because

it's going to be so much, we think it's an issue in the

expert testimony, and with the other witnesses.

And two, with him, they seem to have called into

question the environment in which this interview took place,

so we don't think it's sufficient to tell the complete story

of the interview to just play a clip.

THE COURT: I agree.

MS. MAXFIELD: But it needs to be made clear to the

jury that this is not the interview that we discussed. He

and I discussed a very different interview with Cambodian

National Police. And then I simply asked him who was present

in the interview with Martha from the FBI. And I didn't ask

about any content or whether he was questioned repeatedly.

These are separate interviews.

THE COURT: I understand.

MR. SINHA: With the Court's permission, I will lead

him into making sure that that is clear. And one last

logistics question, we have the interview. It's in English

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 193

with the translator, but we also have translations that have

been provided to Mr. Johnson's counsel. What we hope to do

is hand out the written translations in case the jury wants

to follow along, because they have a hard time hearing

things. And then we will take them back afterward. And I

would like for Mr. LSX --

THE COURT: Any objection to having the jurors read

it?

MR. WEINERMAN: There's various translations, so it

would be good to know which one they are using. So we may

not like one, but may not have an objection to the other. It

depends.

THE COURT: We will take a look at that, and take it

up before we play it.

MR. SINHA: We could put an agent on to play this so

Mr. LSX is not sitting up there listening to this again. But

if Mr. Johnson's counsel would agree, because we would just

ask for it to be played. I can introduce it through him, but

we just ask that we play it after he's left the stand. That

would be my request.

THE COURT: It occurs to me, recross on statements

that were made -- he may have to come back to the stand.

MR. SINHA: Sure. Okay. Sure.

THE COURT: Any objection to Mr. LSX being off the

stand while the tape is being played? You can recall him for

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 194

recross on what you hear.

MS. MAXFIELD: I am going to have to look at this,

Judge. I didn't know we were going down this road. So you

are saying that you don't want him to sit in while you are

playing this?

MR. SINHA: I don't want -- I don't -- we don't want

him to be sitting up there while we play this video.

MS. MAXFIELD: And what you are suggesting is that I

simply have a chance to bring him back to ask questions about

this once it's played?

THE COURT: It makes some sense to have him listen

to it if you are going to ask questions about it.

MR. SINHA: We will have him stay there, then.

THE COURT: All right. Recess for ten minutes, and

take a look at the transcription and see if you have any

objection to that being handed to the jury.

(Brief recess taken from 10:28 a.m.

to 10:47 a.m.)

MR. WEINERMAN: I have been told -- it takes us

awhile. I have been told that there's nothing inflammatory

that would be subject, let's say, to a 403 objection in this

tape recording. But as we're going through it, we will read

ahead, and if there is something that we feel should not be

played for the jury, a portion of it, we would like

permission to at least raise that concern with the Court

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 195

before it's played and they hear it.

THE COURT: Have you had time to go through it yet?

MR. WEINERMAN: Well --

THE COURT: Let's finish that up, and see if there's

an area that you object to.

MS. MAXFIELD: (Reading document.)

MR. WEINERMAN: We're going to share it, Judge.

MS. MAXFIELD: We're on different standings.

(Brief recess taken from 10:48 a.m.

to a 10:55 a.m.)

MR. WEINERMAN: I think it would be best for the

Court to identify the parties in there. So Martha, I think,

is the FBI agent, and then there's Roth, who is the

interpreter. I think the jury should know who that is.

THE COURT: We have some questions for LS X before

we --

MR. SINHA: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay, bring the jury in.

(JURY IN.)

THE COURT: Please be seated. Mr. Sinha.

Q BY MR. SINHA: So LS X, I just have a handful more

questions for you. So thank you for sitting with us all day

this morning.

One thing I wanted to ask you about was your

participation in the Cambodian case against Mr. Johnson. And

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 196

so as I understand it, on the day of Mr. Johnson's arrest,

you talked to the Cambodian National Police and told them

that Mr. Johnson had sexually abused you.

A Okay.

Q In the Cambodian case was there a point at which you

also provided testimony to a Court in the prosecution?

A I spoke.

Q You spoke to a Court in Cambodia?

A Yes.

Q And did you talk to them about Mr. Johnson sexually

abusing you?

A Yes.

Q And what did you tell them?

A I said like what he had done to me.

Q And are those the same things that you have told us when

you talked to us about it yesterday?

A Yes.

Q And LS X, you talked a little bit about the organization

Hagar. Do you know if Hagar was helping the -- do you know

if Hagar got involved with you as part of the Cambodian case?

A Yes.

Q Do you know if it matters at all to Hagar what happens

in the American case?

MS. MAXFIELD: Objection; based on personal

knowledge.

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 197

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. SINHA: Has anyone from Hagar ever indicated to

you that your status with the organization would change if

the American case didn't go forward?

A Can you ask that again?

Q Sure. Has anyone at Hagar ever told you that if the

American prosecution of Mr. Johnson ended, or if you didn't

participate, they would no longer help you?

A No.

Q What about Water of Life? That's where you are living.

Did anyone at Water of Life tell you that if the American

case didn't go forward or you didn't participate in it, you

would get kicked out?

A No.

Q Do you believe that you staying at Water of Life has

anything to do with the American case?

A I don't understand.

Q Do you believe that you staying at Water of Life will

only continue if you participate in the American case?

A No.

Q So LS X, the next thing I want to talk to you about is

we talked about some money that you were given before you got

on the plane, and then also when you arrived in the United

States.

Did anyone -- what do you understand that money to

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 198

be for?

A It was for food.

Q How are the prices of food in America, compared to the

prices of food in Cambodia?

A A lot more pricey than Cambodia.

Q Have you used some of that money to buy food?

A Yes.

Q What about the money that you got before getting on the

plane? Was that also for food?

A It was for something to eat at the airport -- airports.

Q And has anybody ever told you how much money you will

receive -- let me start again.

Prior to Ms. Maxfield asking you, did you ever know

how much money you were going to receive while you were in

the United States?

A They did tell me, and they said it was like $50 a day,

or something like that.

Q So I have just a couple of more questions for you. The

next thing I am going to do is I am going to show you what

has been marked as Government's Exhibit 241 A, as in apple.

MR. SINHA: And I want to tell the Court,

Exhibit 241 is a forensic interview of Mr. LSX that occurred

in 2014 with an FBI forensic interviewer named Martha

Finnigan. The reason there's an "A" after the exhibit number

is because there were points in the room where everyone

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 199

except LS X left, and he was sitting there in silence.

So to try to cut it down a little bit, we have cut

out those portions. But I can represent to the Court that we

haven't cut out any portions where anyone was talking to

LS X.

THE COURT: There's a third person mentioned that

looks like a translator.

It's spelled "Roth," but may be pronounced

differently.

MR. SINHA: It's spelled R-O-T-H. My understanding

is that it's pronounced "Rohat," but that's the third person

in the room. He's a translator to help translate the English

into Khmer.

THE COURT: We will play the exhibit. And folks,

Ms. Pew will hand out what is a transcription of the

interview to assist you in reading along with the exhibit

that is played. You will not get to keep the transcript, but

it is there to help you understand the video.

MR. SINHA: Your Honor, if this is not being

published to the jury, I would ask that it be published.

THE COURT: We are publishing it, correct.

(Video Played.)

MR. SINHA: Thank you, Your Honor. The government

passes this witness.

THE COURT: Any follow-up questions based on the

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 200

video?

MS. MAXFIELD: Just a couple.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MS. MAXFIELD:

Q LS X, have you spent all the money on food?

MR. SINHA: Objection; beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I have.

Q BY MS. MAXFIELD: It's all gone?

A No, not all of it, because I shared with my older

brother.

Q Okay. Did your older brother get some money, too?

A Yes.

Q When we listened to the tape, Martha asked you whether

you got any gifts after Daniel touched you, and you said

this: "He gave on Christmas, but when he did that he didn't

give."

A At times I received them, but sometimes I didn't. So

sometimes he gave me money, sometimes he gave me cookies.

Q And the only other thing I wanted to talk to you about,

and maybe this is because I goofed. You talked to two FBI

agents; is that right?

A Yes.

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 201

Q One was FBI Martha, the person we just listened to, and

the other person was FBI Daniel; is that right?

A Daniel, I didn't get to speak to him very much, because

as soon as Martha walked in, he left.

Q Okay. Did you go to talk to the FBI two different

times?

A Yes.

Q I want to play a clip for you and ask you if it helps

you remember something.

MS. MAXFIELD: Could you play ID 1902?

MR. SINHA: I object, Your Honor. It's beyond the

scope.

THE COURT: It's beyond the scope, and I don't know

if it would play -- to refresh his memory on something, if we

play it in front of the jury.

MS. MAXFIELD: I wonder if -- it's not in Khmer, so

I don't know how to do it.

Q BY MS. MAXFIELD: Let me ask you this, do you remember

speaking with Agent Dan --

MR. SINHA: I object to the content of this

question. He can be refreshed on whether he spoke to him,

but the content of their conversation, I don't think he

said -- I don't know where we are with that in regards --

THE COURT: I will have to hear the question first

before I can rule.

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

deborah_cook@ord.uscourts.gov

DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 202

Q BY MS. MAXFIELD: Do you remember telling Agent Daniel

that -- you told him you wanted to live in the United States?

A I am not quite sure.

MS. MAXFIELD: Well, I am not going to keep you here

over lunch. We will leave it right there. Thank you.

THE COURT: Thank you very much. You can be excused

at this time. You could be called back later as a witness,

so please be available.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: Folks, I will read to you what is a

judicially noticed fact, so this is a fact that you can

accept as true in the case.

In accordance with Title 28, Section 1829 of the

United States Code, Any fact witness for either party must be

paid a $40 witness fee for each day they attend trial, and

for each day necessarily occupied going to and returning from

the place of attendance. The same familiar law requires that

in addition to travel-related witnesses, fact witnesses must

be paid a subsistence allowance. The subsistence allowance

paid to any fact witness in this case will be the current

Federal per diem rate for Eugene, Oregon, of $59 a day.

So folks, we're going to break for lunch. We'll

have you back at 1:15, and we will resume at that time with

our next witness.

(JURY OUT.)

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

deborah_cook@ord.uscourts.gov

DIRECT EXAM CONTINUING - LS XXX

Page 203

THE COURT: Okay. We're recessed until 1:15.

(Proceedings concluded at

11:55 a.m.)

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DEBORAH COOK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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Page 204

STATE OF OREGON )

)ss

COUNTY OF YAMHILL)

I, Deborah L. Cook, RPR, Certified Shorthand

Reporter in and for the State of Oregon, hereby certify that

at said time and place I reported in stenotype all testimony

adduced and other oral proceedings had in the foregoing

hearing; that thereafter my notes were transcribed by

computer-aided transcription by me personally; and that the

foregoing transcript contains a full, true and correct record

of such testimony adduced and other oral proceedings had, and

of the whole thereof.

Witness my hand and seal at Dundee, Oregon, this

2nd day of May, 2018.

/s/ Deborah L. Cook, RPR, CSR

__________________________

DEBORAH L. COOK, RPR

Certified Shorthand Reporter

OREGON CSR #04-0389

CALIFORNIA CSR #12886

WASHINGTON CSR #2992

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