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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

EASTERN DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Docket No. 03 CR 978

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. )

)

MUHAMMAD HAMID KHALIL SALAH AND )

ABDELHALEEM HASAN ABDELRAZIQ ASHQAR, ) Chicago, Illinois

) November 17, 2006

Defendants. ) 9:00 o'clock a.m.

VOLUME TWENTY-TWO

EXCERPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE AMY J. ST. EVE, AND A JURY

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff: HON. PATRICK J. FITZGERALD

United States Attorney

BY: MR. JOSEPH M. FERGUSON

MR. REID J. SCHAR

MS. CARRIE E. HAMILTON

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 500

Chicago, Illinois 60604

For Deft. Salah: PEOPLE'S LAW OFFICES

BY: MR. MICHAEL EDWARD DEUTSCH

MS. ERICA THOMPSON

MR. BENJAMIN H. ELSON

1180 North Milwaukee Avenue

Chicago, Illinois 60622

For Deft. Ashqar: MR. KEITH ALLAN SPIELFOGEL

20 North Clark Street, Suite 1200

Chicago, Illinois 60602

MR. WILLIAM MOFFITT

11582 Greenwich Point Road

Reston, Virginia 20194

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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):

Also Present: S/A BRADLEY BENAVIDES, FBI

S/A JILL PETTORELLI, FBI

Court Reporter: MR. JOSEPH RICKHOFF

Official Court Reporter

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 1232

Chicago, Illinois 60604

(312) 435-5562

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PROCEEDINGS RECORDED BY

MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY

TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER

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183

THE CLERK: 03 CR 978, USA vs. Muhammad Salah and

Abdelhaleem Ashqar. Jury trial continues.

THE COURT: Good morning.

MR. FERGUSON: Good morning, Judge, Joe Ferguson,

Reid Schar, Carrie Hamilton for the government.

MR. DEUTSCH: Michael Deutsch and Erica Thompson and

Muhammad Salah for Mr. Salah.

MS. THOMPSON: He is here. He's just getting water.

THE COURT: Yes, I saw him earlier.

MR. MOFFITT: William Moffitt and Keith Spielfogel,

and we are awaiting Dr. Ashqar.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: We have no reason to believe that he

won't be here or wouldn't be here.

THE COURT: Do you want to check outside and see if

he is --

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I just did.

MR. MOFFITT: We know that he is driving. Sometimes

he gets lost. I've been with him when that has happened.

THE COURT: Okay.

Well, we cannot start the trial without him.

Do you have a cell phone or a way of contacting him?

MR. MOFFITT: I do, but it's over -- it's over in the

office where --

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I can call him, Judge.

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THE COURT: Would you please?

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I will.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. MOFFITT: And I left my cell phone because we

were having trouble turning it off.

THE COURT: That is probably a good idea.

Here he comes. He is on his way.

(Brief pause.)

MR. SPIELFOGEL: For the record, Dr. Ashqar is

present in court.

THE COURT: Okay.

Please bring in the jury.

Mr. Spielfogel, are you ready?

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I am, Judge.

(Jury in.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Good morning.

I see you brought your sweaters with you.

(Laughter.)

THE COURT: I do not blame you.

We are going to continue today with the presentation

of evidence. Remember today is a half-day.

Mr. Spielfogel, you may continue.

Agent --

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Thank you, your Honor.

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185

THE COURT: -- before you do, let me remind you that

you are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.

ROBERT MIRANDA, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY SWORN

CROSS-EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT ASHQAR - Resumed

BY MR. SPIELFOGEL:

Q. Good morning, Agent Miranda.

A. Good morning, sir.

Q. Agent, during the course of the conversations that went on

at the Philadelphia meeting, there were several topics that

were discussed by the participants, as far as how the movement

would now be viewed in light of the Oslo Accord; is that

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And they had some real fears about some of the things that

the Accord would mean as to the Islamic people; isn't that

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, one of the things that they were concerned about was

that now if anyone took a position against the Accords, they

would be termed terrorists; isn't that correct?

A. That's partially correct, yes, sir.

Q. And, in fact, that was discussed during the meeting.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: And I would ask, your Honor, if you

would direct the jury to Tab 19, Page 1.

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THE COURT: Of Philadelphia Conference, correct?

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Everything is Philadelphia

Conference.

THE COURT: Okay.

Please grab your Philadelphia Conference binder.

When you get it, turn to Tab 19, please. Page 1, Tab

19.

BY MR. SPIELFOGEL:

Q. I'm going to direct your attention to Lines 30 through 42

on that page.

Agent, during the course of that meeting on the issue

that I just discussed, the person with the initials "Ak" made

the following statement; is that correct?

Line 30: "For example, there was a seminar at George

Washington University a week ago about the Middle East process

and terrorism. This was its title. They brought experts

from -- er, from the Center of Strategic International

Studies, from the Near East Policies, from the Israeli

Embassy, the military attache and his deputy. I mean, there

were some people who were trying to present the Israeli point

of view mostly about how the coming stage will be like. I

just wanted to mention some of the points which they

unanimously agreed on, as these will be the points we will

work on in the future. For example, instead of saying that

terrorism now is -- so that all of you are in the picture,

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they defined terrorism as anyone who is opposed to the

agreement. You are against peace and a terrorist if you

oppose the agreement. The issue of being opposed to the

agreement as a point of view is no longer there with them.

You are against peace. If you are opposed to peace, it means

that it is okay to slaughter you in any suitable manner they

deem fit."

Was that said during the course of this conference?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. There was also a tremendous amount of concern by many of

the participants that Yasir Arafat would now have his people

running Gaza and the West Bank, and that his people's number

one goal was the elimination of the Islamic movement; isn't

that correct?

A. Yes, it was a concern.

Q. He was -- they were concerned -- and, by the way, Yasir

Arafat's people, prior to the Oslo Accord, they were at war

with Israel; isn't that correct?

A. The PLO, sir?

Q. That's correct.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then, one day you have this agreement reached and the next

day they're working with the Israelis; isn't that correct?

By and large.

A. By and large.

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Q. Okay.

So, one of the concerns that the movement had at this

conference was that now that the PLO people were out of jails,

they would be running the situation in Gaza; they would be the

ones with weapons; and, they would be coming against the

people who were part of the movement; isn't that correct?

A. That's partially correct.

Q. Well, let me turn your attention, if we could, to Tab 7.

THE COURT: Please turn to Tab 7 in this binder.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Page 5.

THE COURT: Page 5 of Tab 7.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: And I would ask you to please look

at Lines 15 through 22.

BY MR. SPIELFOGEL:

Q. A person with the initials "Ga," did he make the following

statement at the meeting:

"Number one is the reality and it will be. There are

available information -- unintelligible -- that Abou Ammar --

" who is Abou Ammar?

A. That is an alias for Arafat.

Q. " -- has authorized his special forces to erect the

gallows for the movement in Gaza. This is one. Two, Fatah --

unintelligible -- they used to be persecuted, on the run and

locked up like you, I mean, in jails. That is what -- in the

jails they're just like you. How about when they have

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Miranda - cross by Spielfogel

189

authority, an -- a flag, an Army, money and a job, jobs and

ID's? What do you expect will happen? They will be murderer

criminals, my brothers. Even the doctors among them. Doctors

among them have criminal mentalities."

Was that said during the course of that conference?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. We heard a lot of transcripts and a lot of transcripts

were played as far as things that Dr. Ashqar, himself, said

during the course of the Philadelphia conference; is that

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I know that this one on Tab --

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I'd ask if the jury could go to Tab

11, Page 10 and 11.

THE COURT: Please turn to Tab 11, Page 10.

BY MR. SPIELFOGEL:

Q. And this was an address that Doctor -- we're going to

start on Line 22.

This is an address that Dr. Ashqar gave at the

conference; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And I know that we played this on the computer and we put

it up on the screen.

Do you remember that?

A. Yes, sir.

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190

Q. And we went through it quickly at that time.

Do you remember that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I want to ask you, again, if this is what Dr. Ashqar had

to say to these people in the meeting in Philadelphia:

"I resort to God from the pelted devil. As you know,

of course, due to the bad situation of education in the

inside, there was a need for specialized centers abroad.

Education is the movement's capital in the inside. The future

of the struggle depends on education, whether we like it or

not. Also, due to the deterioration of -- or the bad level of

education in -- unintelligible -- are mostly laborers in

Israeli factories. It was very hard to find a college

graduate from the 48, the territories. Maybe in the '60s. In

the '70s, you wouldn't find one college graduate. This is

generally speaking. The reality is even worse in the Islamic

surroundings and the Islamic movement. College graduates are

very few. College graduates are very few -- " I'm sorry -- "

and a large segment of laborers support them. As for the

educated ones, they're few in number. The danger is that --

this is like a building without columns, especially when it

comes to Sharia education. People send very few people to

education. To build a college called David of Dawa'a and

Islamic Sciences and they carried their papers to all parts of

the world: America, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. And, until now,

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191

it still doesn't have a building or a college staff of its

own. Their college staff is from the West Bank and Gaza.

They come upon order from the military commander and return

every day. The building is still housed in the Noble Quran

House made up of four or five rooms only. They had a project

and they went to the municipality where they got a lot of

land, but the project is not completed. It seems that a donor

from Britain or something had donated a hundred thousand to

this project. Anyway, we at the Al Aqsa fund, briefly, had a

fundraising campaign during the month of Ramadan, which wasn't

successful. It wasn't as we hoped. But we hope it will be a

good start, God's willing. We set as goals for us the

following: First of all, supporting the specializations which

we need in the inside; particularly, media, journalism, law,

political sciences. Two, supporting higher education and

higher studies in Arab countries, as their cost is small and

we are ready to support any specialized higher studies in Arab

countries. It is true that we have allocated a humble budget;

a specialization in the inside, a thousand dollars annually;

1500 annually for higher studies in Arab countries. Three,

attempting to benefit from our brothers in colleges to get

accepted for higher studies in America. We don't have an

ability right now -- right now we don't have an ability to

support any students for higher studies in America. A student

costs between 15,000 and 20,000. But it is possible that we

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192

have his -- unintelligible -- and they prepare his file and we

try through our brothers in colleges to get him accepted

through a scholarship. This is, of course, inapplicable to -- "

"this is, of course, is applicable to higher studies in

America. Talking about the future, if God renders things easy

for the fund, we can support some of the Islamic brothers who

can come to America to do a specialized study in the three

fields I mentioned before: Law, advertising and journalism,

and political sciences, if things go well. As for the near

future, we have an upcoming visit by a brother from the

faculty of Dawa'a and Fundamentals of Religion, Jerusalem

University. He was recommended by our brothers in Jerusalem.

His name is Mr. Ahmad Moustafa Waffaqa. He will arrive next

Wednesday and, God's willing, we will arrange with the fund a

tour in some of the cities hoping that we can raise as much as

we can to achieve the goals we have. In addition to that,

there is an attempt to sell the project for the college of

Dawa'as and Islamic Sciences in Um El-Fahem. And I speak from

a position of someone who knows the current status of

education and knows that -- unintelligible -- 90 percent or 95

percent of the ranks of our Islamic brothers in the Islamic

Movement do not -- unintelligible. There must be equality.

This is it. They can carry out any project, but --

unintelligible.

"A quick comment. The true blessings then come from

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193

the laborers and -- all those who have college degrees are the

ones who are behind." I guess there was laughter.

"As for the institutional activism, I don't disagree

with the person who -- part of the problem of our brothers --

unintelligible -- is that they are all educated. But I'm

saying that it is a matter of balance. The other project

which are trying to sell is the labs of the College of

Engineering at the Islamic University. They opened a new

college for engineering. The entire number of students at the

Islamic University was 5,000 students. Now the students are

less than 2,000. Of course -- unintelligible -- there is no

time for details right now. Generally speaking, other

universities were built to steal the show from the Islamic

University. There is a competition between them and the

Islamic University. Al Azhar University started new

specializations, which they are needed in society, such as

pharmacy, agricultural -- things which people need. For the

Islamic University, in order for it to exist, it had to change

its specializations, at least, and start a college for

engineering. But the College of Engineering right now has no

lab or educational staff. We will try, God willing, to sell

these projects. May God reward you well."

Was that what Dr. Ashqar told the people gathered in

Philadelphia?

A. Yes, it is, sir.

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Q. He spoke about several other things that he felt were

necessary that the people who were gathered tried to advance.

He talked about the need for official delegations of the

Islamic community to go visit families of those who had been

deported; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he talked about the need to get assistance to the

families of those people; is that correct?

A. That's correct, sir.

Q. And, as a matter of fact, at one point, he asked a

congregation, "My God, what crime has the child of a person in

prison committed?"

Isn't that correct?

A. I think he makes a comment like that, yes, sir.

Q. He talked about the dire need for charitable work in

America; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the need to raise human rights issues, that they had

to be brought up in the United States; isn't that correct?

A. He addresses that.

Q. And he talked about the fact that we needed to establish

an archive for all of the materials relating to the

Palestinian people; did he not?

A. No. He said an archive for the movement, which is Hamas.

Q. The movement --

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A. The movement's clear- --

Q. Your --

A. Go ahead, sir.

Q. -- definition --

A. Pardon me.

Q. -- of the movement is anyone who is involved in the

movement who believes in the rights of the Palestinian people,

that person is Hamas; is that correct?

A. No, sir. I am using the definition established in the

committee here where they would say "the movement equals

Samah," "Islamic movement equals Samah," "Hamas equals the

movement."

Q. You cannot be in favor of the Islamic people's rights, in

your mind, and not be a member of Hamas; is that what you're

telling us?

A. No. What I'm saying is you're saying that Ashqar said

something, and I'm telling you that's not what he said.

Q. Let's look at exactly --

A. Yes, sir.

Q. -- what he said.

A. Let's do that.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I'd ask if the jury could please

turn to Tab 8, Page 7.

THE COURT: Please turn to Tab 8 and Page 7 within

Tab 8.

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196

MR. SPIELFOGEL: And I would go to Line 2 of the top

of Page 7.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. SPIELFOGEL:

Q. Did he say the following: "Receiving delegations, as

well. Keeping an archive. The entire archive in the inside

might be confiscated entirely. If there was really no

duplicate for it, the Movement will really become without a

heritage and every moment will begin from zero --

unintelligible."

Is that what he said?

A. Well, actually, he said "and every movement will begin

from zero"; but, yes, that's what he said.

Q. "The movement will really become without a heritage."

He's talking about a heritage there; isn't that correct?

A. He uses the word "heritage."

Q. It's a heritage of the Palestinian people, Agent; isn't

that correct?

A. No. You are wrong, sir.

Q. Okay.

He talked about the fact that it was very important

to invest in the inside; spoke about investments that would

yield a high dividend, that will employ the youths who live in

the Palestinian -- in Gaza and in West Bank; isn't that

correct?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were those youths all Hamas people that he's talking about

there?

A. He doesn't say that there, sir.

Q. But I thought he would only be concerned about people who

were in Hamas?

A. I think he's primarily concerned about people in Hamas.

Q. Now, he got ready to leave the conference; isn't that

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And he said, "There's a couple things I just want to talk

about before I leave"; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And, actually, there were three things that he wanted to

talk about; do you recall that?

A. He had some points, yes.

Q. Okay.

The first one was he wanted more rights for women in

the movement; isn't that correct?

A. I'm not sure if he said that or another individual said

that, sir.

Q. Well, you don't recall him saying that women needed larger

roles?

A. I recall that an individual said that, but I wasn't

certain --

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Q. Let's go to Tab --

A. -- if it was him or another individual.

Q. Let's go to Tab 25, if we could, please.

THE COURT: Please turn to Tab 25.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I'm looking for the page, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Take your time.

(Brief pause.)

MR. SPIELFOGEL: And I'd ask you to please turn to

Page 19.

THE COURT: Page 19 of Tab 25.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: And I direct you to Line 11.

BY MR. SPIELFOGEL:

Q. Do you have that, Agent?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. "As" is Ashqar; is that correct?

A. That's correct, sir.

Q. Line 11: "Really, we should be opening the woman subject.

Unidentified -- a person who you don't know who it

was -- says, "The woman."

Ashqar: "The community and its women. It is true --

unidentified -- first of all, our women, our sisters."

Someone says, "May God have mercy on Dr. Bishtaqi's

soul."

"Amen."

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199

Ashqar: "The right thing to do is to give them

political representation in a manner which gives the ability

-- to give something, that is. In addition to their role in

organizing activities and attempting to highlight their role

in the activities of the association, charity work or anything

else."

Is that what Dr. Ashqar said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He also talked about, before he left the conference, that,

"We need to get better speakers to go and give talks on the

inside and here in the United States"; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And, finally, he spoke about the fact that we needed to

try to get minority scholarships for Muslim students so that

they could attend law schools here in the United States; is

that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, he then left the conference; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The conference continued; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There were more informal meetings that occurred at that

point? Do you know?

A. There was a continued discussion, yes, sir, that was

captured.

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Miranda - cross by Spielfogel

200

Q. The meeting that took place in Philadelphia, as we've

already established, this was at a public hotel; is that

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There were no locks on the doors; is that correct?

A. I have no idea about locks on the doors, sir.

Q. Well, you think walking in the front door of the

conference, that the front door was locked --

A. I --

Q. -- of the hotel?

A. I have no idea, but I seriously doubt it.

Q. Do you seriously doubt that the door going into the

conference room in Conference Room B was locked? Do you doubt

that?

A. I have no idea. I couldn't see the door from the

videotape, sir.

Q. Okay.

But, in your mind, maybe it was locked; is that

right?

A. No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying I have no

idea.

Q. Okay.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I have nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch?

Ms. Thompson?

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201

MR. DEUTSCH: Ms. Thompson.

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you, Judge.

CROSS-EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT SALAH

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Good morning, Agent Miranda. How are you?

A. Good, ma'am.

Q. I may find it necessary to refer to a couple of documents

in the Ashqar Search Documents, as well as in the Philadelphia

conference transcripts.

Do you have both of those available to you --

A. No, ma'am.

Q. -- up there?

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you.

MS. HAMILTON: Judge, I'm going to hand the Search

Documents binder to the witness.

THE COURT: Okay. You may.

(Document tendered.)

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Hamilton.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, Agent Miranda, you were not an agent when -- with the

FBI in 1993, were you?

A. Not with the FBI.

Q. Okay.

And this conference in Philadelphia that you've been

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talking about, in fact, took place in October of 1993; isn't

that correct?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. And just so the jury is absolutely clear, this conference

in Philadelphia -- which we have been talking about for a

couple of days now -- took place before the time that Hamas

was designated a terrorist organization by the United States;

isn't that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And, so, since you weren't with the FBI in 1993, when the

conference took place, it's fair to say that you weren't

listening to the conference at the time it took place; is that

right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And it would be fair to say, also, that you were not part

of any FBI surveillance of the Marriott Hotel in 1993, either,

were you?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. And, so -- and you don't -- I think you explained

yesterday that you don't really speak Arabic fluently; is that

correct?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. And, certainly, in 1993, you didn't even, for lack of a

better way to put it, hear Arabic fluently; isn't that

correct?

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A. That would be correct.

Q. Okay.

And, so, what you are familiar with, sir, is the

transcripts of the translations into English of a conference

which was pretty much exclusively conducted in Arabic; is that

right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay.

And I think you told the jury yesterday that you had

read over those translations -- those English translations --

of those documents -- that took place in a conference 13 years

ago -- that you had read those over a couple times?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. And the conference lasted approximately three days; is

that right?

A. That's right, ma'am.

Q. And you know as you sit there that the FBI, in fact,

bugged the entire conference 13 years ago; isn't that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Now, you have no information whatsoever that Muhammad

Salah was present at that Philadelphia conference 13 years

ago, do you?

A. No. He was in jail.

Q. He was in prison, in fact, wasn't he?

A. That's correct.

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204

Q. And he was under the custody, detention and interrogation

of Shin Bet at the Ramallah interrogation center; isn't that

right?

A. The Israelis. I'm not sure Shin Bet or not, but certainly

in Israeli custody.

Q. All right.

And, so, after reviewing those English translations a

couple of times, as you told the jury yesterday, you then came

here to Chicago and you have -- with Ms. Hamilton, you went

through a number of those translations on direct examination;

is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you and Ms. Hamilton didn't go through those

translations in order, did you?

A. Actually, yes, we did.

Q. On direct examination --

A. Oh, pardon me. I didn't --

Q. On direct examination to this jury --

A. No, not --

Q. -- you and Ms. Hamilton -- let me finish my question, sir.

A. Pardon me, ma'am.

Q. On your direct examination by Ms. Hamilton in front of

this jury, you did not go through the translations of those

three days of conference in order, did you?

A. Correct, ma'am.

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Q. In fact, we would go from Tab 25 to Tab 8 to Tab 11 and

sort of jumped all over the book; isn't that fair to say, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. And how many --

MS. THOMPSON: Well, strike that.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. And, in fact, you and Ms. Hamilton on direct examination

certainly didn't go through all of the English translations of

the three days of FBI bugging at the conference, did you?

A. No, we didn't go through all three days.

Q. And how many hours would you estimate that you have spent,

either with or without Ms. Hamilton, deciding which parts of

this conference and in what order you wanted to present them?

A. There's two questions there. I think maybe I spent a week

going through this. A solid week.

In terms of how much time we've spent deciding what

order, she decides the order. I probably worked with her -- I

know I worked with her -- a good five hours last Saturday over

a phone and maybe a couple hours here, and that's about it.

Q. All right.

And it's fair to say that the process that you went

through was to sort of, what we'd call, to cherry-pick which

parts of a three-day bugging by the FBI you wanted to present;

is that right?

A. No --

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206

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- I would disagree.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, other than, I believe, at one mention in your direct

examination by Ms. Hamilton -- and I've been through these

transcripts a number of times, and I think I saw one other

mention of the term "jihad" mentioned.

There is, in fact -- in three days of FBI bugging,

there isn't one word about planning any military activity at

that conference, is there?

A. No. This is not a conference about that.

Q. There is no mention in a three-day conference at the

Marriott Hotel of building a military structure, is there?

A. No, there is not.

Q. There is no mention, in a three-day conference -- one word

-- about planning any military action, is there?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. There is no mention anywhere in a three-day conference of

purchasing any weapons, is there?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. There is no mention anywhere in a three-day conference --

which the FBI bugged -- of building any bombs, is there?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. There is no mention anywhere in a three-day conference --

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

207

every moment of which was bugged -- of anything having to do

with suicide bombings; is there, sir?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. There is no mention anywhere in a three-day conference of

anything having to do with any kind of military purchase, is

there?

A. Correct.

Q. And, in fact, there is no mention -- in three days of FBI

bugging at the Marriott Hotel in October of 1993, no mention

whatsoever -- of even purchasing any kind of ammunition, is

there?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, just to be clear, because we don't want the jury to

be confused --

MS. THOMPSON: Judge, if we could direct the jury to

Tab 23 of the Philadelphia Conference binder.

THE COURT: Please turn to Tab 23.

MS. THOMPSON: On Page 2 --

THE COURT: Page 2 of Tab 23.

MS. THOMPSON: -- of that document, on the first

line.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Just because we don't want the jury to be confused, in

that first line -- and I'll read -- was this said:

"Okay. The points which were mentioned, our

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

208

brothers, are as follows: The summary of the issues is what

is needed is points, bullets, all of it."

Just so the jury is clear, we're talking about

talking points here, aren't we?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. We're not talking about bullet points coming from a gun,

are we?

A. No, ma'am, we're not.

Q. We're talking about, figuratively, the pen rather than the

sword, aren't we?

A. We're talking about bullet points.

Q. And we're talking about bullet points which would be found

to be issues summarizing a dialogue; isn't that accurate?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Now, there's certainly no mention -- in these entire three

days of FBI bugging at the Marriott Hotel, there's certainly

no mention -- anywhere about any act of violence contemplated

to be committed on American soil, is there?

A. No, I don't think there is.

Q. Now, you did tell Ms. Hamilton on direct examination

yesterday afternoon, you said, in answer to her question,

"People at the conference talked about destroying Israel's

military," didn't you?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Well, you're aware, aren't you, sir, that Israel has the

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

209

second most sophisticated and well-armed military in the

world, aren't you?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. THOMPSON: Judge, I just -- he can answer if he

knows or not.

THE COURT: Ms. Hamilton?

MS. HAMILTON: If he knows at the time that this

conference was being recorded, I would agree, but not

generally.

THE COURT: Yes, rephrase your question.

MS. THOMPSON: Well, I think -- I'll break it down,

Judge.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. First of all, as you sit there today, are you aware that

there has been any significant change in the amount of funding

provided by the United States to Israel's military since 1993

till today?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained on relevance grounds.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. In 1993 -- or -- in 1993, were you aware that the United

States, in fact, spent over a billion dollars a year, that

they gave to Israel, to fund their military?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

210

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained on relevance grounds.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Are you aware that in 1993, Israel was the only country to

whom the United States gave money that did not have to report

at all what they used those expenditures for?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained on relevance grounds.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. This was a conference about political issues at an

historic juncture for the Palestinian people, wasn't it?

A. I wouldn't characterize it that way.

Q. Well, this wasn't a conference about drug smuggling, was

it?

A. No, it was not a conference about drug smuggling.

Q. Was it a conference to do with drug lord territory?

A. No.

Q. It wasn't a conference that had anything to do with the

Mafia, was it?

A. No.

Q. It wasn't a conference that had anything to do with

gambling, was it?

A. No.

Q. It wasn't a conference that had anything to do with drug

cartels, was it?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

211

A. No.

Q. In fact, this was a conference about trying to get an

understanding and support in America for the Palestinian

struggle against occupation in the face of the powerful

Israeli lobby, wasn't it?

A. No. I would say that this was a conference about

supporting Hamas and aligning the organizations that support

Hamas in the United States in light of the Oslo Accords and

what they thought the actions were going to be to their

organizations, both in the territories, in Israel and in the

United States.

Q. This was a political conference, wasn't it?

A. "Political" is a broad term. This is a conference --

Q. Is it --

A. -- about supporting terrorism.

Q. Was -- sir, didn't you just tell this jury that there was

not a word mentioned anywhere, in three days of FBI bugging,

about a planned military action at -- any kind of ammunition,

bombs or violence, either overseas or on American soil?

Didn't you just tell this jury that?

A. I sure did.

Q. Okay.

MS. THOMPSON: Now, if we could direct the jury,

Judge, to the Philadelphia conference at Tab 8?

THE COURT: Please turn to Tab 8.

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212

MS. THOMPSON: And it's at Page 8, Line --

THE COURT: Page 8, also? Tab 8, Page 8?

MS. THOMPSON: Tab 8, Page 8, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay.

MS. THOMPSON: And Line -- it's sort of toward the

end of Line 11.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Didn't someone at the conference say the following:

"We are not an agent. We provide services to these

people, either by sending monies, spreading their news or by

informing them with this and that. I imagine that 75 percent

of our work is for relief and 25 percent concern with the

American -- " and the translator has inserted "front."

"Should we now work 75 percent for America and 25 percent

for -- " and then there's an unintelligible notation.

Isn't it true that when they are talking about the

current situation, that they are spending -- 75 percent of the

efforts of the conference participants are spent on social

service relief? Isn't that accurate?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. And they're saying that 25 percent of their current effort

of the participants at the conference is spent trying to lobby

in the United States to gain an understanding from U.S.

lawmakers about the plight of the Palestinian people; isn't

that right?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

213

A. I think that's one aspect of it.

Q. And what's being suggested here, is it not, is that at

this particular historical juncture, people are discussing

whether or not -- given the importance and strength of the

United States, whether or not -- 75 percent of their effort

shouldn't be to try and raise the consciousness of the

American people?

Isn't that what's being suggested here?

A. I -- I -- think that's just a small aspect of what it is.

Q. Well, the word "front," as inserted on Line 14, that's the

translator's word, right?

A. In that particular instance, it is; but, I'm pretty sure

it's used by some of the --

Q. And --

A. -- speakers, as well.

Q. I'm asking about that particular instance.

A. Yes, ma'am, in that particular instance.

Q. And that's an FBI translator, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And that's the FBI translator that you told the jury has

the office right across from yours, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you're certainly aware, sir, as you sit there, both

now and back in 1993, about just how powerful the pro-Israeli

lobby in this country is, aren't you?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

214

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained on relevance.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, you said before that you weren't particularly sure

about the strength of the Israeli military back in 1993; is

that right?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: What is the objection?

MS. HAMILTON: I don't know that that was his answer.

I don't think that question was actually ever asked or

answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You can answer.

The question was: "You said before."

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I don't think I answered that question.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Well, are you aware that in 1993, Israel was and, in fact,

remains the second most powerful military in the world?

A. Repeat that, again, one more time.

Q. Were you aware in 1993 that Israel was the second most

powerful and sophisticated military in the world?

MS. HAMILTON: I'm going to object to form.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You can answer that, if you can, or if you are aware.

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215

BY THE WITNESS:

A. As a military officer in 1993, I would wholeheartedly

disagree with that statement. There were a lot more powerful

militaries than Israel in 1993 and even now.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. They were the most sophisticated, besides the United

States, in terms of weaponry; were they not?

A. No --

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- I would wholeheartedly disagree with that.

THE COURT: It can stand. He has answered.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Are they, in fact, funded more heavily by the United

States than the entire continent of Africa?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained on relevance.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, in the early 1993 -- and that's the same year that

the FBI bugged this conference, right? In 1993?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. -- Israel was, in fact, engaged in a major media campaign

to stop funding to Palestinians living under occupation,

weren't they?

A. I'm not aware of that.

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

216

Q. Well, certainly, you were aware that Israel was engaged in

a major media campaign to deflect attention from their summary

deportation of 415 Palestinian men in December of 1992,

weren't you?

A. I am aware of the 413 individuals from Hamas and

Palestinian Islamic Jihad who were deported to Marj al-Zuhur

in Lebanon, yes.

Q. And, in fact, that was an act condemned by the United

Nations, wasn't it?

A. I think it was.

Q. And that was an act, in fact, highly criticized and

initially condemned by the United States, wasn't it?

A. I don't really know the U.S.'s position on that.

Q. And, in fact, Israel's campaign to stop any kind of

funding to the Palestinian cause of people living under

occupation was a result, sir, was it not, of trying to deflect

attention from those illegal deportations, wasn't it?

A. No. It was my understanding that Israel was trying to get

a handle on the terrorism and deported 413 leaders of Hamas

and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Q. Is that your understanding in 1993, sir?

A. No, that's -- that's -- my understanding from the work

I've done as a result of the Holy Land Foundation, which

supported those deportees. And, in that work, I've reviewed

numerous videotapes in their possession that covered that --

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

217

the deportation -- and interviews of the deportees --

Q. So --

A. -- including significant -- can I finish my answer, ma'am?

Q. You may.

A. -- including significant Hamas leaders who were deported,

such as Abdel Aziz Rantisi and others.

Q. So, you have chosen, in fact, have you not, sir, in your

analysis of the deportations, to take the side of Israel in

summary deportations, an act which was, in fact, criticized by

the entire world except Israel; and, as you sit there today,

you take the position that Israel was simply protecting

itself; is that accurate?

A. No. All I'm doing is --

Q. Thank you. That was a "Yes" or "No" question, sir.

MS. THOMPSON: Now, I would ask, Judge, if we have

them turn in the Search Documents to Tab 5.

THE COURT: Please switch binders and grab Search

Documents binder. Tab 5 in the Search Documents binder.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Tab 5.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, if I could --

THE COURT: One moment.

MS. THOMPSON: Sorry. Okay. I'll listen.

THE COURT: A lot of binders.

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

218

Tab 5.

MS. THOMPSON: In the first page of that document.

THE COURT: Okay.

You may proceed.

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you, Judge.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. And, on the first page of that document, behind Page 5,

which is enumerated No. 1, does that not say, "The FBI

Assistant Director completely denied -- " or "denied

completely that they are investigating or there is any plan to

investigate Arabs or Muslims based on the recent Israeli-led

media campaign. The FBI position is that they are not driven

by media to instigate an investigation and they are aware of

the fact that Israel is doing this to divert attention from

the deportees issue. In addition, it is the right of the

people in this country to raise funds."

Do you see that --

A. I see --

Q. -- in that document?

A. I see that.

Q. And you're aware of that; aren't you, sir? You read that

for Ms. Hamilton in direct examination yesterday, didn't you?

A. We read that.

Q. And, in fact, there was a media campaign by Israel to

deflect attention from the deportations, wasn't there?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

219

A. All I know is what this author wrote with respect to that.

Q. Well, now, there was a meeting that took place on February

24th of 1993 between representatives of the IAP and the FBI,

wasn't there?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. And, in fact, present at that meeting was Neil Gallagher,

who was the Assistant Director of the FBI, isn't he?

A. Not anymore. That's what it says.

Q. At that time?

A. At that time, ma'am.

Q. And have you seen the corresponding FBI memo, either by

Gallagher or someone else in the FBI?

A. I'm not aware that there is one.

Q. Did you make any effort to try and find that, sir?

A. Personally, me, no.

Q. Yes.

A. Other agents did.

Q. Might that have been something you would have been

interested in seeing?

A. Other agents did, ma'am.

Q. But as you sit there, you did not; is that accurate?

A. Other agents did, ma'am.

Q. My question is, sir: Did you make any effort?

A. Did I personally?

Q. Yes.

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A. No, ma'am, I did not personally.

Q. Thank you.

Now, I'd like you to turn to Page 2 of that same

document.

THE COURT: Page 2.

MS. THOMPSON: Tab 5.

THE COURT: Of Tab 5.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, in Page 2 of this document, which I believe you read

for Ms. Hamilton yesterday, doesn't it say that the FBI knew

that Israel's claim that the U.S. is the base for high-level

command leadership in Hamas is just simply part of their media

blitz and an exaggeration?

A. That's what the author of this document wrote, yes.

Q. And, again, that's a meeting which took place with the

then-Assistant Director of the FBI, Neil Gallagher; isn't that

right?

A. That's what's written in this document.

Q. And surely, sir, you know that on February 17th -- which

it would have been exactly one week prior to this meeting, but

-- with Mr. Gallagher and members of the IAP -- that, in fact,

the New York Times ran a front-page story by Judith Miller

claiming that Muhammad Salah was a high-level member of Hamas

living in the United States; isn't that right?

A. I recall the article. I don't know if he was referred to

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as a high-level member. It's been a while since I've read

that article.

Q. And, certainly, that was considered and, in fact, was

exactly what the Assistant Director of the FBI was claiming

was simply media blitz and exaggeration; isn't that right?

A. I don't know if he --

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained on foundation.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. What is the ADC?

A. Arab Discrimination Council.

Q. And what is that?

A. Sounds like a organization to support Arab rights.

Something along those lines.

Q. It's a major national civil rights group advocating on

behalf of Arab Americans in the United States, isn't it?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't -- you don't -- have any interest in knowing

what that organization is, sir, in your work?

A. Not unless it's Hamas.

Q. Have you ever met with them?

A. No, I haven't.

Q. Have you ever sought, perhaps, the opinion of the Arab

civil rights bar on any of the issues that you address in your

work?

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A. Actually, I think we have discussed with Arab community

members and civil rights leaders from the Arab community. We

do meet regularly.

Q. Well, do you know Craig Nojeim?

A. No, I don't think I do.

Q. Do you know whether other people in your office know him

and consult with him?

A. I have no idea. I'm from Dallas. This guy could be

anywhere.

Q. I'm from Houston.

MS. THOMPSON: Now, if we could turn now to Tab 8 of

the Philadelphia Conference binder, Judge.

THE COURT: Please switch binders, ladies and

gentlemen. Go to Tab 8.

(Brief pause.)

MS. THOMPSON: And behind Tab 8 in the Philadelphia

Conference, I would refer the jury and the Court and the

witness to Page 4.

THE COURT: Page 4 of Tab 8.

Okay.

MS. THOMPSON: And it's Line 37.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Did someone at the conference say the following: "First

of all, the incident of Muhammad Salah. I won't linger on it

in a narrative way. But you are all aware of it. And the

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media has exaggerated it. The first result, conclusion or

lesson from the incident of Muhammad Salah is that bearers of

U.S. passports are not above the reach of the law. But if the

issue has to do with -- unintelligible -- they're the same as

those who carry an Egyptian travel document or those who carry

an Israeli travel document. It is the same thing in front of

Israeli law. This is something which ought to be taken into

consideration."

Was that said at the Philadelphia conference?

A. Absolutely.

Q. I would now refer to -- flipping back and forth like

this -- the Search Documents at Tab 24.

THE COURT: We are back to Search Documents, Tab 24.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Tab 24.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. And on that document, under "No. 1," does it not say,

"Muhammad Salah-we are not above the law-accuracy-caution"?

Is that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Is that what's reflected in that document?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Would you say that those are consistent, the message being

communicated both at the conference and in that document?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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Q. And, in fact, the message being communicated here is that

Palestinian Americans are not immune; is that right?

A. No, that's not the message, ma'am.

Q. The conference participant, from what we read, is saying

that if you're Palestinian, even if you are an American

citizen and want to provide humanitarian assistance to people

living under occupation, you are, in fact, subject to summary

arrest, interrogation and detention by the Shin Bet and the

IDF in Israel; isn't that right, sir?

A. With all due respect, ma'am, you're not even close.

Q. Well, you know that when Muhammad Salah was arrested in

January 25th of 1993, he was taken to the Ramallah

interrogation facility, wasn't he?

A. I don't know what facility he was taken to.

Q. Well, in fact, he was taken to the Ramallah interrogation

facility. And are you aware, sir, that the reason that Shin

Bet and the IDF claim that he was taken to that particular

facility was because 26 years prior to that, he had grown up

in a refugee camp in the Ramallah district?

Are you aware of that, sir?

A. I am not aware of that.

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. And, in fact, the message is, "Once you're a Palestinian,

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it doesn't matter if you have an American citizenship; you are

always a Palestinian in the eyes of Israel," isn't it?

A. With respect to the documents you've asked me about --

Q. "Yes" or "No" question, sir.

A. I don't know.

Q. Now, I'm going to shift a bit to talk about the Oslo

Accords. Okay?

Now, the conference participants, as Mr. Spielfogel

talked to you about earlier, were very concerned about being

labeled terrorists because they were opposed to the Oslo

Accords; isn't that accurate?

A. That's one aspect of it.

Q. Kind of like being labeled unpatriotic if you're opposed

to the war these days, isn't it?

A. No. I wouldn't put those analogies together.

Q. Well, they were concerned about Islamists and Muslims

being labeled terrorists because they were opposed to the Oslo

Accords, though; isn't that right?

A. They were concerned with what was going to happen to

Hamas.

Q. The conference attendees were concerned that the Oslo

Accords were simply not going to be able to change the

horrendous conditions of daily life -- the sewage in the

streets -- under which Palestinians were living every day;

isn't that right?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

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A. They mentioned the sewage. They mentioned that as a

description of the bad condition there.

Q. And the conditions were bad there; isn't that true?

A. I suspect they were.

Q. And they remain bad there; isn't that right?

A. I haven't been there.

Q. You've been to Israel, though, haven't you?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You've been to Israel on a number of occasions, haven't

you?

A. I think four times.

Q. Okay.

And during the time that you've been to Israel, you

never decided that you were going to go visit the occupied

territories to see what the situation is like?

A. I drove through the occupied territories, a portion of it.

But, otherwise, it's too dangerous.

Q. It's too dangerous and the conditions are just too bad.

It wouldn't be where you'd opt to stay, would it?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Do not argue with the witness.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. And the people at the conference were concerned that the

effect of the Oslo Accords would be that the Americans, in

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

227

particular, would believe that the humanitarian crisis would

be over and the Americans would turn their back on the plight

of the Palestinians; isn't that right?

A. Well, the attendance were -- of the committee were --

certainly concerned that --

Q. Is that true, what I've just said?

A. I'm trying to answer your question, ma'am.

Q. My question to you is: Were the participants at the

Philadelphia conference concerned that the Oslo Accords would

have the effect of convincing the American public that the

humanitarian crisis was over and simply turn their backs on

the issue; "Yes" or "No"?

A. No.

Q. Well, the Americans do -- we Americans, would you agree

with me, are a media-consuming culture, aren't we?

A. I haven't polled every American. I could speak --

Q. Well --

A. -- for myself.

Q. -- isn't it fair to say that when the images of

suffering -- say, of the Katrina hurricane -- go off the

screen and we believe relief has been provided, that we tend

to just sort of move on?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Isn't that accurate?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

228

THE COURT: Objection to form and relevance

sustained.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Well, that's what the people at the conference were

concerned about; isn't it, sir?

A. No, it's not.

Q. Well, let's refer to Tab 19 of the Philadelphia

conference.

THE COURT: Tab 19 of the Philadelphia conference.

MS. THOMPSON: And it is on Page 1 of Tab 19.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, I want to ask you about a statement which was read --

or, pardon me, which was stated at the Philadelphia

conference.

And I apologize that I think a couple of these lines

were read by Mr. Spielfogel, but I want to give you the

context. Because context is important; is it not?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Right.

So, did someone -- one of the participants -- "Ak" --

say the following -- and I would direct you to the middle of

Line 19 of Page 1.

"The second thing is that we must know the future

media strategy of the Jews in regard to the media campaign

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

229

they will launch against us in America and even in Palestine

itself. It is clear that the main enemy of the agreement

right now is the Islamists. The other people don't have a

public -- a weight like the Islamists. And it is clear that

the attack will be on the Islamists. In their minds, they

have no one else to focus on other than the Islamists. Not

only do they want a Jew to attack the Islamist, but they also,

the entire world, to march behind them to attack the

Islamists, as well. This will reflect on us here in America

because in the end, we will see that the American media, with

the Jewish media in America and Palestine implied in it,

discuss these issues. And we will be forced to respond to an

issue wherever one is raised. All of our positions will be

reactions and they won't have -- unintelligible -- what we are

expecting to happen, how to prepare for it so that we are not

surprised with the unexpected every time. For example, there

was a seminar at George Washington University a week ago about

the Middle East process and terrorism. This was its title.

They brought experts from -- er, the Center For Strategic

International Studies, from the Near East Policies, from the

Israeli Embassy, the military attache and its deputy. I mean,

there was some people who were trying to present the Israeli

point of view mostly about how the coming stage will be like.

I just want to mention some of the points which they

unanimously agreed on, as these will be points we will work on

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

230

in the future. For example, instead of saying that terrorism

now is -- so that all of you are in the picture, they defined

terrorism as anyone who is opposed to the agreement."

That's the Oslo agreement; isn't it, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. "You are against peace and a terrorist if you oppose the

agreement. The issue of being opposed to the agreement as a

point of view is no longer there with them. You are against

peace. If you are opposed to peace, it means it is okay to

slaughter you in any suitable manner they deem fit. They're

trying to discuss this issue and how they are going to present

it to the media in the future, in order to discredit those who

are opposed to peace. And the important party they talk about

is -- they didn't ask it like us. They say Hossam and stuff.

They are saying Hamas is our main goal in the next stage.

(Laughter). "So -- "

Unidentified male says: "You're quoting them?"

"Ak: Yes. That is what they said.

"Sh: Quote-unquote. He is quoting them. Don't you

hear them?

"Ak: They came up with some points, some of which is

that the near future will witness terrorism against the

Palestinians. There was almost complete accord that in the

next stage the Jews are used to terrorism. It is not

something strange to them. And the Americans are --

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

231

unintelligible -- and they deal with it.

"But the Palestinian people -- the new arriving

government is not used to terrorism and doesn't know how to

deal with terrorism. It still doesn't have the experiences to

deal with terrorism -- " there's unintelligible brief group

talk at that point " -- against the agreement in Palestine.

Therefore, it is something we ought to be ready for from now.

There is always -- unintelligible -- how to address even the

Americans and tell them that so -- " "those who oppose the

agreement do not oppose peace, for instance. We should

address the American mentality, which is one of their

convictions they always preach saying that, for instance, the

people who accepted the agreement and signed the agreement

didn't get an authorization from the people, nor did they get

an authorization from its organizations. I mean, some things

like that, in order to give credibility to the people who

oppose the agreement from now. You don't wait until the

self-rule takes place and, then, say, 'By God, we are against

the self-rule because it is not legal and stuff.' No. You

work on it from now in your media, so that you give -- so that

you prepare for the future opposition of the self-rule which

is about to take effect. You have to defend it as a real

target, as the real target is the Islamic movement over there.

This is the first thing. The second thing which must be

focused on is that we must attempt to improve the living

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

232

conditions of the Palestinians."

Was that said at the Philadelphia conference, sir?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Now, the conference participants were concerned that the

Oslo Accord was going to put a corrupt puppet government led

by Yasir Arafat and the PLO, as you mentioned, in power to

enforce the occupation under the guise of self-rule; isn't

that right?

A. I think that's only partly correct, ma'am.

Q. Well, let's turn to Tab 5 of the Philadelphia conference.

THE COURT: Please turn to Tab 5 of the Philadelphia

Conference Transcripts binder.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. And while people are finding their place at Page 5, when

the term "Jews" is used in the context of the Philadelphia

conference, it's simply the way that people refer to Israelis

in the same way that you have said "Islamists" or "Muslims,"

isn't it?

A. No, not necessarily.

Q. But, in this instance, sir, there is nothing derogatory

about the use of the word "Jews" as a religion in any instance

in here other than to represent the position of the Israeli

government; isn't that right?

A. I think you'd have to ask a participant what they had in

mind when they used that term.

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

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Q. Okay.

So, if we are now at Tab 5 of the Philadelphia

conference at Page 8 --

THE COURT: Page 8 of Tab 5.

MS. THOMPSON: And Line 20 on that page.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Did the person identified as "Om" -- and I would refer

people to the beginning page; I won't go back to the names

here -- say the following at the Philadelphia conference:

"There is an article -- someone wrote about the facts

of the agreement. An Israeli, Dr. Israel Shabib, you know him

-- unintelligible. He wrote a 13-page article in which he

analyzes the issue. I read it. He is saying that the current

situation -- the signed agreement -- is the worst thing to

happen to Palestinians. The Jews will now give Arafat what he

wants since he has now become like King Hussein or --

unintelligible. They're not planning to hold elections. The

whole thing is all lies, the elections things. They don't

want to have elections in the first place. They want Arafat

to remain -- unintelligible. Then he is saying that the

deportations was conducted by a joint operation between the

Israeli Intelligence and Arafat and the Palestinian Liberation

Organization. There were intelligence meetings and the first

aspect to have coordination between Jews and Arafat was

through intelligence.

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

234

"Sh: Really!

"Om: It is an incredible article by an Israeli."

Is that right, Agent?

A. That's what they're saying.

Q. Then another -- well, unintelligible. Then Om says, "No,

before that. He was saying that this was before the

deportation process. I mean, he is saying that the

deportation was planned by both sides or at least it was

approved by two sides."

The unidentified male says, "Oh, you mean the

Palestinian Liberation Organization approved it?

"Om: The Palestinian Liberation Organization

approved it along with Israel."

Were those words said at the Philadelphia conference,

sir?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Now, the conference participants were concerned that the

PLO -- the Palestinian Liberation Organization -- and Israel

were going to effectuate brutal oppression on the Muslims and

their widespread social service work as a result of the Oslo

Accords; isn't that right?

A. No, it was Hamas.

Q. Now, you say "Hamas," but when we talk about Hamas, sir,

isn't it accurate that Hamas is, in fact, a broad-based social

movement?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

235

A. It's a terrorist group with a social wing.

Q. In fact, it supports the social services, the life

services of thousands upon thousands of people living in the

occupied territories, doesn't it?

A. It is a -- it has a --

Q. That is a "Yes" or "No" question, sir. Please answer my

question so that the jury can understand the answer to my

question.

A. Please repeat your question.

Q. My question is: Is Hamas provide needed social services

to thousands of people in the occupied territories; "Yes" or

"No"?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, if I could direct you to Tab 6 --

THE COURT: Please turn to Tab 6.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. -- of the Philadelphia conference binder, and Page 16 of

Tab 6.

THE COURT: Page 16 of Tab 6.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, looking at Line 7 on Page 16 beginning there, did

someone referred to as "Ga" -- and just for reference, the

names are included in the front of this binder; is that right?

A. Correct, ma'am.

Q. Did someone named "Ga" then say the following:

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

236

"Therefore, retaliation will be widespread against our

individuals, our organizations, our supporters, our mosques,

our presentations, our media, our boys, our girls, our women,

our relationship with our brothers in the other Arab

countries. All of these will be affected, unfortunately, in a

negative way at least in the first phase. The --

unintelligible -- is that we ought to look at matters keeping

in mind that we are at an historical crossroads."

Is that what "Ga" said at the Philadelphia

conference?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Now, many scholars at major universities across the world

have, in fact, opined that Oslo was, in fact, calculated to

preclude the existence ever of a viable, functioning

Palestinian state; isn't that right?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Well, are you familiar with the scholarly opinions of the

late Edward Sa'id?

A. I'm familiar with Edward Sa'id as the author of

Orientalism and some other books; but, no, I'm not familiar

with that opinion.

Q. Are you familiar with the opinions on the subject of the

Oslo Accords from Dr. Sara Roy at Harvard?

A. No. I am familiar with Dr. Sara Roy as a author of Middle

Eastern and Central Asian studies, but I'm not familiar with

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

237

that opinion.

Q. In fact, Dr. Sara Roy has spent many, many years living in

Gaza and studying the economic conditions and conditions of

daily life in Gaza. You're not familiar with that?

A. No, I'm not.

Q. Are you familiar with the research and opinions regarding

the calculated failure of the Oslo Accords of Rashid Khalidi

at Columbia University?

A. I'm not familiar with that.

Q. Are you familiar with the opinions of Professor Glenn

Robinson at the Naval Postgraduate School that Oslo was

calculated, in fact, to fail and to get the world to forget

about the plight of the Palestinian people?

A. Dr. Glenn Robinson was my professor for my thesis work at

the Naval Postgraduate School. And I am familiar with him as

a Palestinian expert, but I do not know his opinion on that.

Q. Okay.

And he is, in fact, very much an expert on the

subject of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict; is that accurate

to say?

A. That's what I understand.

Q. And, surely, you know that the Oslo Accords left open

entirely the issue of the right of Palestinians to return to

their homeland, aren't you?

A. I'm not -- as I said yesterday, I'm not -- an expert on

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

238

the Oslo Accords. I'm a counter-terrorism guy.

Q. Kind of a singular tunnel vision kind of focus; is that

fair to say?

A. No, I wouldn't say that at all. I would just --

Q. Well, you're not familiar with -- you're not an expert on

the Oslo Accords, right?

A. I'll admit that.

Q. And, yet, you're coming in here and you gave an opinion on

cross-examination that you're convinced that the reason that

the Oslo Accords failed is all because of Hamas' opposition,

right?

A. Well, I think Hamas had a big part to do with it. I think

--

Q. Well --

A. -- anybody --

Q. -- if you're not an expert on the Oslo --

A. I'm sorry, I wasn't done with my answer.

THE COURT: Ms. Thompson, give him a chance to finish

his answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I was gonna say that I think anybody reading the paper

would see that the violence supported by Hamas and other

groups opposed to the Oslo Accord was a major factor in

undermining any credibility and in eroding the confidence of

the Israeli government with the Palestinian Authority to work

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

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together.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. So, you got your information --

A. It was effective.

Q. -- from the media on why Oslo failed; is that accurate to

say?

A. I've probably read some intelligence reports along the

way; but, yeah, I'm gonna say the media, in general.

Q. But it's fair to say what you have focused on -- and I

think you've said this about five times already -- is you

focused on simply Hamas' relationship to the Oslo Accords?

A. No. What I focus on is Hamas in the United States.

Q. Okay.

But with regard to your opinions that you've given

here about the Oslo Accords, your opinion is you're a Hamas

guy; that's what you study; that's what you look at; and, it's

your opinion that they caused Oslo to fail; is that right?

A. Well, I'm a -- I'm a -- counter-terrorism agent, not just

Hamas. But, yes, that is my opinion.

Q. Okay.

A. That I think Hamas was a significant factor in the failure

of the Oslo Peace Accords.

Q. But it's fair to say that you haven't studied a number of

Israeli scholars' opinions on why Oslo failed, right?

A. Correct.

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Q. You haven't read Sara Roy's article on the post-mortem of

the Oslo Accords, have you?

A. No, I haven't.

Q. And it's fair to say that you think maybe one of the

reasons the Oslo Accords could have failed was because Prime

Minister Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli?

A. That could be an aspect of it.

Q. Okay.

And have you studied the effect on the failure of

Oslo by the violence of the Israelis, including that of Baruk

Goldstein?

A. No.

Q. But you certainly must be aware that the Oslo negotiations

entirely left out the question of Jerusalem?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection. He's already stated

numerous times that he's not an expert on what precisely is in

the Accords.

THE COURT: He has said he is not an expert.

You can answer --

MS. THOMPSON: But he --

THE COURT: -- that question. If you are aware or

not --

MS. THOMPSON: Yes.

THE COURT: -- is the question.

MS. THOMPSON: That's what I am asking because it

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

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seems to vacillate.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I think Jerusalem was left out. I am not certain of that

factor.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Okay.

And Oslo also -- at no point did it recognize any

right, under international law, of the Palestinians to even

one inch of land, did it?

A. Can you rephrase that, please?

Q. Did Oslo recognize, as a matter of international law, that

the Palestinians were entitled to any land?

A. I don't know the answer to that.

Q. Okay.

A. That's a complex question.

Q. And Oslo did not at all address the issue of Israeli

settlements, did it?

A. I am not certain of the settlement issue.

Q. Now, in fact, are you aware as you sit there today that

during the period of Oslo, the number of Israeli

settlements -- people deliberately sanctioned by the Israeli

government to move on to disputed lands -- doubled during that

period?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

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BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Are you aware that the number of settlements doubled

during the period of the Oslo Accord --

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. -- negotiations?

MS. HAMILTON: Relevance.

THE COURT: You can answer, if you are aware.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I'm not aware, ma'am.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Now, you know as you sit there today that it was, in fact,

Israel that wanted the United States to bug the Philadelphia

conference, don't you?

A. No, I have no idea of that.

Q. It was Israel that convinced the FBI, in fact, to trod

upon the rights of the First Amendment to discuss political

issues --

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. -- isn't that right?

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Well, would you agree with me that the Israeli-Palestinian

conflict is a topic of public concern and public debate?

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A. Yes.

Q. Would you agree that it is one worthy of debate and

dialogue?

A. Yes, if done legally.

Q. Would you agree with me that people have a right to

discuss their opinion on government policies in their country?

A. Yes, if done legally.

Q. Do you believe that people have a right to gather and

discuss these issues?

A. Yes, if done legally.

Q. And because you continue to throw in that phrase "if done

legally," can we remind the jury that nowhere in three days of

FBI bugging was there one word about planning a military

action, sir? Not one word, was there?

A. Correct.

Q. And you know as you sit there that, in fact, the United

States shared the information gathered in October of 1993 with

Israeli security agencies, aren't you?

A. No, I'm not aware of that, ma'am.

Q. Well, is it your position that the FBI did not give the

information at the Philadelphia conference to the Israelis?

A. Ma'am, I am not aware what the FBI did with this

particular information relative to the Israeli government.

Q. Well, you certainly know that Shin Bet uses the

information provided by the U.S. in this intelligence

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gathering, don't you?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. They use it in their interrogations, don't they?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Well, certainly, you're aware that when the Israelis

create bird documents, they use information provided to them

from the Americans about the identity and affiliations of

people here, don't they?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Well, people here who go to a conference, as

Mr. Spielfogel pointed out in his cross-examination, gave

their names and identities at the door of the hotel, didn't

they?

A. They sure did.

Q. Credit card numbers?

A. They sure did.

Q. Airline information?

A. No, they didn't give their airline information, but

there's airline information available.

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Q. There is airline information, though?

A. Available, yes, ma'am.

Q. Was anything at all, to your knowledge, done illegally to

set up the Philadelphia conference?

A. Illegally to set it up? I think that's debatable.

Q. Okay.

Well, nobody used fake names, to your knowledge; is

that right?

A. Wasn't necessary.

Q. In fact, they didn't -- to the extent that somebody's

identified as "last name unknown" or "unidentified male," it's

simply because the FBI wouldn't go in there, knock on the door

and say, "Could you give me your name?" Because they probably

would have given it, wouldn't they?

A. I seriously doubt that.

Q. Well, you don't have any information that they would not

have, would you?

A. You asked me an opinion and I just gave you an opinion.

Q. Okay.

THE COURT: Ms. Thompson, roughly how much more do

you have?

MS. THOMPSON: Just a few minutes, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay.

I am just trying to decide timing of the break.

MS. THOMPSON: Okay. It shouldn't be too much

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

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longer.

We can take a break now.

THE COURT: Okay.

Let us take our first break.

(Jury out.)

THE COURT: Let us pick up in about 15 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

(Jury in.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Ms. Thompson, you may proceed.

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you, Judge.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. One thing I neglected to ask you, Agent, when we were

talking about the Oslo Accords is that, certainly, you know

that Farouk Kaddoumi, the second under Arafat and one of the

founders of the Fatah party, in fact, opposed the Oslo Accords

from its inception until today?

A. I'm not familiar with that.

Q. Now, as you sit there, you are aware that information is

exchanged on intelligence matters between the United States

and Israel, aren't you?

A. I'm aware of that.

Q. Okay.

And as you sit there, you know that Israel gives

information that it gathers in its interrogations by Shin Bet

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and other agencies to the United States, don't you?

A. I'm aware of an exchange of intelligence information on --

Q. Okay.

A. -- terrorism matters, yes, ma'am.

Q. And you know that Israel, in fact, provided in this case

the statements obtained by Shin Bet of Mr. Salah, aren't you?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you're aware that Israel provided in this case the

Shin Bet-authored interrogation logs, right?

A. I don't know about the description of "Shin Bet authored."

I just understand that the interrogation was provided as part

of a extradition package on Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. Okay.

And those materials were provided in the Marzook

litigation, right?

A. I'm not actually familiar with them from the Marzook

litigation. We found them elsewhere.

Q. Okay.

But, certainly, those documents originated in Israel,

didn't they?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And they were supplied by Israel for use by the United

States in American courtrooms; is that right?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. Okay.

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And are you -- you're certainly aware that in this

case -- and, perhaps, others with which you are familiar --

that the State of Israel sends agents with code names to help

the prosecution prove their case, right?

A. I am aware that we've had some agents recently testify in

terrorism matters in U.S. courts.

Q. Okay.

And you know as you sit there that, in fact, this is

a cycle of information between the United States and Israel

which is really attempting to launder Israeli torture; isn't

that right?

A. That is a ridiculous statement.

Q. And, in fact, it's really a kind of rendition, isn't it?

A. I would not characterize that as a rendition.

Q. Well, certainly, you would agree with me that there is a

cooperative investigative and intelligence joint relationship

between the United States and Israel, isn't there?

A. The United States and Israel do cooperate on terrorism

matters that are of interest to the national security of both

countries. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. And, in fact, you, yourself, have shared information with

Israeli intelligence service people, haven't you?

A. I don't know if I can discuss what I've done with the

Israeli government, ma'am.

Q. Well, have you met with them before?

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Miranda - cross by Thompson

249

A. I have.

Q. And you've met with them on certainly more than one

occasion; isn't it fair to say?

A. That -- it's correct, ma'am.

Q. You've met with them on a number of occasions; isn't that

true?

A. Probably at least four.

Q. Okay.

And you've met with how many different Israeli

intelligence officers in your career?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Well, in fact, Agent, you are aware as you sit there today

that this case, with all of this old evidence generated in

Israel 13 years ago, is a test case to see whether a strategy

of laundering Israeli torture is going to work in an American

courtroom, isn't it?

A. Wrong.

MS. THOMPSON: No further questions.

THE COURT: Redirect?

MS. HAMILTON: Yes, your Honor.

MS. THOMPSON: I will advise Ms. Hamilton I didn't

spill the water.

(Laughter.)

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THE COURT: Is there water up there?

MS. THOMPSON: It was there when I got here.

I think I have a napkin.

(Brief pause.)

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Agent Miranda, you were just asked some questions about

cooperation between the FBI and agents of Israel, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Does the FBI work with agents of countries throughout the

world who are concerned about fighting terrorism?

A. Regularly.

MS. THOMPSON: Objection. Relevance to this case,

Judge.

THE COURT: Overruled. It is redirect in direct

response to cross.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. And you --

MS. HAMILTON: I just want to make sure the answer

got out. I think it was muffled by the objection.

THE COURT: The answer was: "Regularly."

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. And you were asked about your knowledge that Israel sent

agents here to testify, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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Q. Is it your understanding that this is the first time

Israel has ever sent agents to testify for a U.S. case?

A. Yes, ma'am. It's a very difficult and rare process.

Q. You were asked a number of questions about your

understanding of the Philadelphia conference?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. What is your understanding of what was happening at the

Philadelphia conference?

MR. MOFFITT: I'm going to object.

MS. THOMPSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Give --

(Laughter.)

MR. MOFFITT: Sorry.

His understanding is not relevant.

MS. HAMILTON: I did not elicit his understanding on

direct examination. It was elicited through a number of

questions on cross-examination.

THE COURT: Objection --

MS. THOMPSON: Judge, I believe that the questions we

asked was what was said during the course of the Philadelphia

conference. And he was not tendered for any other reason.

And I think he said he's completely unfamiliar other than

having read through it a couple of times.

THE COURT: There were questions regarding his

understanding.

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You may answer that question.

THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Here's my understanding.

The Philadelphia conference, as Omar Ahmad states in

the introduction, is a meeting of the Palestine Committee.

The Palestine Committee, at least partially, is described in

Ashqar Document 185, I believe, the Palestine six important

numbers in the United States. The top name: Mousa Abu

Marzook, current number two man in Hamas.

We can go through the list if you like and I'll point

out other Hamas members. But, in fact, it's even Omar Ahmad,

head of Hamas in the United States -- recognized by the FBI as

the head of Hamas in the United States -- who gives those

introductory remarks.

The cover position, as stated by Shukri Abu Baker,

the head of the now specially-designated group the Holy Land

Foundation, is that this is a meeting between the IAP and the

HLF --

MR. MOFFITT: I object.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- in case anybody asks.

MR. MOFFITT: I object.

May we come to side, please?

THE COURT: Yes.

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(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. MOFFITT: In 1993, when this meeting occurred,

the Holy Land Foundation was not a specially-designated

terrorist organization. So, it has absolutely no relevance to

what was going on in 1993.

Secondarily, I think it's now time for an instruction

to the jury regarding mere membership in an organization,

because this person is taking the position from the witness

stand that it is enough -- mere membership in Hamas is

enough -- to create a situation that makes something illegal.

He's tried to say that this meeting was illegal in answer to

Erica's questions. And that's not appropriate. And this

jury, I believe, now needs to be informed that they've got to

go beyond membership in proving this case.

MS. HAMILTON: I totally disagree with that.

THE COURT: Take both the objection and the

instruction.

And I will tell you now, I do not think it is

appropriate to instruct at this point. I will instruct them

on the law at the end of the case, after they have heard all

of the evidence, to the extent that there is not a successful

Rule 29 motion.

MS. HAMILTON: Agent Miranda was asked a series of

questions about his understanding of the purpose of the

meeting. I am asking the same question.

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His understanding is based on a number of things.

The questions on cross were not, "Based upon your review of

the transcripts, what is your understanding of this part or

this part of the meeting or the purpose of the meeting?"

Because of that, he should be entitled to give his

understanding based on whatever his understanding is based on,

whether it was current in 1993 or it's based on what he now

knows, based upon further investigation of things that have

been illuminated about HLF or the people who were present at

the meeting.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, you think that there were

questions asked about his understanding --

THE COURT: There were.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- and the purpose of the meeting. I

don't recall that.

THE COURT: There definitely were, because I was

waiting for the government to object and they did not.

MR. DEUTSCH: Well, be that as it may, I don't think

it's proper for him to get up and give just, like, a narrative

answer which throws in stuff that happened in 2001 --

MS. THOMPSON: He will be on the stand four more

days.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- what he knows from his work as an

FBI agent ten years later, referring to wiretaps and video. I

mean, that's ridiculous. He should just give an answer, "I

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think it's X, Y, Z." He's not supposed to give a speech up

there.

THE COURT: He is going beyond the scope of your

question, what is his understanding. You should focus him

more. The Philadelphia conference was a long event. He was

just going on and on. So, you can focus him more on specific

aspects, if you want.

I think he has answered the question, at least in

part. But a long narrative speech is not appropriate.

But I do think the questions -- "What is your

understanding?" -- based on the door being opened on cross are

appropriate.

MR. DEUTSCH: But here's what I'm concerned about.

As you said, he gave a long answer already. What more --

THE COURT: He was stopped, but --

MR. DEUTSCH: Well, can you strike the answer -- the

part of the answer -- that goes beyond that?

I don't think she should ask another question which

gives him a chance to make a further answer.

MS. THOMPSON: It's also the idea that he is starting

to talk about information about the Holy Land Foundation,

which is not in this indictment, has nothing to do with this

indictment, is completely one to subsume -- it could keep him

on the stand two or three more days -- and bring up profound

discovery issues in this case, about that litigation and those

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prosecutions.

MS. HAMILTON: Judge, the Holy Land Foundation --

MS. THOMPSON: He's answered it.

MS. HAMILTON: -- is represented by people at the

Philadelphia conference.

THE COURT: Right.

MS. HAMILTON: There have been questions about the

Holy Land Foundation that there have been insinuations this

was just people getting together to talk about charity. He

should absolutely be able to talk about what the Holy Land

Foundation is, from his understanding.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Your Honor, one other thing.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: The questions that we asked were

what his understanding was as to specific questions. Nobody

on cross --

THE COURT: Which is why I just told her to go back

and focus her questions.

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, for purpose of the record,

I renew my objection with regard to the First Amendment

aspects of the Philadelphia meeting; that this was clearly a

meeting where people discussed political views; that the

entire meeting was about political views. There is not one

statement, by the terms of this witness' testimony, concerning

violent activity or violence or anything like that --

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MS. THOMPSON: And that's --

MR. MOFFITT: -- anywhere.

And the First Amendment allows the American Nazi

Party to have that kind of a meeting. The First Amendment

allows the Ku Klux Klan to have that kind of a meeting. What

is it different about these people that they can't have that

same kind of meeting?

MR. SCHAR: You can have a meeting. That doesn't

make it any less incriminating. The issue is not whether you

are allowed to get up -- defendant Salah has a right to

confess if he wants. He has a First Amendment right to do it.

It doesn't make it any less incriminating. And that's the

issue.

MR. MOFFITT: It's not incriminating --

THE COURT: You know what? Wait, counsel.

You have made your record. I have addressed the

issue already.

MR. DEUTSCH: Can I just make one suggestion?

THE COURT: Brief. You can make a suggestion.

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah.

Can you strike the question and answer and ask her to

rephrase it; and, then, that will give a chance to --

otherwise, we're going to just repeat what he's already said.

THE COURT: No, I am not going to do that, because he

did answer, generally, what his understanding of the

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Philadelphia conference was.

I am directing her, though, that if she asks any more

"understanding" questions, that they be more focused.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: Ask your next question.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Agent Miranda, you were asked a question about the

conference attendees being concerned that they were not going

to be able to change the conditions of daily life. And you

said that was part of your understanding, correct?

A. Correct, ma'am.

Q. What is the full part of your understanding to that

question?

A. The participants were concerned that with the takeover or

the establishment of the --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Rule 704(b).

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- with the establishment of the Palestinian Authority

coming into power, that their organizations -- their Hamas

fronts in Gaza and the West Bank -- were going to be closed

down. That was one aspect of it.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. And you were asked a number of questions about the fact

that there was no planning of any military activity at this

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meeting, right?

A. Correct, ma'am.

Q. And in your answer to that question, you still classified

this meeting as a conference about terrorism?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. Even though there was no discussion about military

activity, why do you classify this as a conference about

terrorism?

A. Well, as Ms. Thompson was correct in her question to me,

Hamas has a very well-established social wing. The social

wing is an integral part of Hamas' operations, just as it is

with other terrorist organizations, such as Hizballah.

The social wing is -- is -- what gives life to the

Hamas movement. That's how Hamas is able to recruit so well.

That's how come they have so much support. That's how --

that's why they're able to do the things they're able to do:

Because they go ahead and provide social services, from the

kindergartens to the hospitals. If you support Hamas, Hamas

is going to support you.

Q. And were the organizations that were represented -- what's

your understanding of the organizations and the people who

were actually present at the meeting, what their relationship

is to Hamas?

A. Right. Well, first off, you have to look at it in the

context. As Ms. Thompson said, you have to look at the

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context, which is important. I wholeheartedly agree with her.

You have to look at the context of who is there.

It's a Palestine Committee meeting. As you know from my

testimony, this was labeled through the documents as an IAP

Information Services meeting. That's, at least, how the rooms

were reserved, which was brought up yesterday on my

cross-examination.

It wasn't listed as a Palestine Committee meeting.

Why? Because that's a secret organization. That's Hamas.

Who is on that list? Marzook, Izzat Mansour, an

individual that Salah, in his confession --

Q. Agent Miranda, let me --

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, this is --

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. -- stop you there.

A. Yes, ma'am.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, this is wrong, what he's doing

now. And I object to it.

THE COURT: Ms. Hamilton?

MS. HAMILTON: Your Honor, this all goes to the

purpose of the meeting and who the attendees were at the

meeting and how Agent Miranda knows that.

MR. MOFFITT: I --

MS. HAMILTON: And I can focus him on the particular

participants.

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THE COURT: I am going to strike the last portion of

the Agent's answer, and the jury should disregard it.

Ask your next question.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Just focusing on the people who were --

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. -- at the conference --

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. -- what is your understanding of what their relationship

is to Hamas, if any?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Objection, relevance.

MS. HAMILTON: Your Honor, there were --

MR. MOFFITT: On the very grounds that we talked

about at the bench.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Well, I'll start with the participants who represented the

Holy Land Foundation.

Holy Land Foundation, specially-designated terrorist

group --

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

MS. THOMPSON: Objection --

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Objection.

MS. THOMPSON: -- Judge. There's nothing in the

indictment about the Holy Land Foundation. This man is up

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here trying to prejudice in front of this jury.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: And --

MS. THOMPSON: And he's not -- this is way beyond the

scope.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: And it wasn't in 1993.

THE COURT: He has already testified to that.

Why do you not focus your question on the time period

at issue.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Let's go to the cover sheet.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. First list, Shukri Abu Baker. What's your understanding

of what his relationship is to Hamas, just generally?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: In 1993?

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. In 1993.

A. Hamas member.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Omar --

MR. MOFFITT: May I make a motion at the bench?

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THE COURT: You can.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. MOFFITT: They are focusing this issue on

membership and, because of that, your Honor, most

respectfully, I have to ask for a mistrial. We can't get an

instruction on the issue of membership, of membership not

being by itself an issue. You can be a member of Hamas.

Now what's happening is he's testifying that all

these people are members of Hamas, and that's being left

unattended in this record as if that in and of itself is some

act -- criminal act. For that reason, with all due respect to

your Honor's rulings, I ask for a mistrial.

THE COURT: Your motion is denied for the same

reasons that I detailed in prior rulings in this case

regarding the bifarious nature of the allegations in this

case.

Mere membership, you are correct, is not a crime.

But there is a bifarious aspect here, and that is what is

being presented to the jury.

So, your motion is denied.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge --

MS. THOMPSON: If I can just say with regard to the

Holy Land Foundation, which seems to be the only thing he has

worked on, there are no allegations in the indictment about

the Holy Land Foundation. There is no -- nothing that

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suggests that that is one of the front organizations in the

occupied territories.

THE COURT: And I sustained your prior objection

regarding the Holy Land Foundation when he said that they were

a designated terrorist organization.

The Holy Land Foundation was represented at the

Philadelphia conference, from the testimony that has come

through.

But I am not sure what you plan, if anything, on

asking about the Holy Land Foundation.

MS. HAMILTON: I'm not going to get into specifics.

The point --

MR. DEUTSCH: No, you're just going to get into

having him just say everybody at the conference is a

terrorist. That's what --

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch --

MR. DEUTSCH: -- you're doing.

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch, wait a minute.

MR. DEUTSCH: Sorry, Judge.

THE COURT: Take a deep breath.

MR. DEUTSCH: Yes, ma'am.

THE COURT: There is no need to start arguing with

counsel here.

MS. HAMILTON: Judge, there were numerous questions

insinuating that this was a meeting about a movement that was

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not Hamas, that was something much more general than that. It

is -- I believe it's -- absolutely fair for this witness to be

able to explain why he believes this was a Hamas meeting and

why when they say "movement" and "Samah," they're talking

about Hamas. Each one of these people is Hamas, by his

understanding; and, that's part of what informs his answer.

THE COURT: And when you ask him questions about

"What is your understanding of who this person was in 1993 in

Hamas," I am assuming he is going to give an answer about what

their role was, not, "Oh, they were a terrorist"?

MS. HAMILTON: No, he's not going to say they were a

terrorist. He will talk about particular entities that they

were aligned with or specific things he knows about them. I

don't anticipate he is going to say they're a terrorist.

THE COURT: And Ms. Thompson's concern is that it is

all going to end up being Holy Land Foundation.

MS. HAMILTON: Well, I mean, Holy Land Foundation is

a big part of this meeting.

MS. THOMPSON: Why isn't it in the indictment?

MS. HAMILTON: Holy Land Foundation was asked about

by Mr. Spielfogel on cross-examination.

I mean, I didn't elicit these things on direct

examination. They were brought up on cross to make it seem

like this is just a meeting about people talking about

charity; this is just a meeting about people who were

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concerned about Gaza and people on the inside.

And that's fine. But I should have a right to get

into what his understanding is about this meeting. He was

asked "Yes" or "No" questions. He was cut off before he could

answer. And I think I should be allowed to get into those

things they didn't get into on cross.

MR. MOFFITT: Well, my concern is, again, you're

going to have him identify all these people as Hamas members.

The question is whether or not that has any relevance just

simply because it is a bifarious organization. They can be

Hamas members and support the non-violent side of it.

THE COURT: And that is --

MR. MOFFITT: But this jury doesn't know that, Judge.

THE COURT: But you are going to argue that in

closings, I am sure. And I am going to instruct them on the

law, Mr. Moffitt.

MS. THOMPSON: He wasn't identified as an expert,

Judge, and --

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah. Judge, that's my problem, yeah.

THE COURT: Yes, that is a different issue.

MS. THOMPSON: He was not identified.

MS. HAMILTON: I didn't do that on my direct. This

didn't happen on my direct.

MS. THOMPSON: You can't open a door --

MS. HAMILTON: Excuse me, Ms. Thompson --

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267

THE COURT: Wait, counsel.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to

take about a ten-minute break.

(Jury out.)

THE WITNESS: May I step down?

THE COURT: You may.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MS. HAMILTON: I was speaking.

THE COURT: Yes.

Now, wait, I am speaking.

MS. HAMILTON: Sorry, Judge.

THE COURT: Ms. Thompson has raised the issue of he

was not identified as an expert. And she is taking the

position that some of his arguments and some of his answers

are of the expert type.

MS. HAMILTON: Your Honor, I did not -- he was not

tendered as an expert. The questions regarding opinions that

would even begin to go into expert opinions were elicited on

cross-examination first by Mr. Spielfogel with respect to the

Oslo Accords. They were very detailed, lengthy questions

about the Oslo Accords.

Ms. Thompson then went into it regarding not only the

Oslo Accords, but also all kinds of things about the Israeli

military; and, then, went into his understanding about

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268

specific things that happened in this meeting and, also, his

understanding about what was generally happening at the time

and general concerns.

Those were opinions elicited on cross.

Because his answers were at times, "That is, in part,

correct," or he would try to explain and he was cut off, or he

would explicitly disagree with the question that was asked, I

think that it is totally fair on redirect for me to go back to

those issues and have him illuminate the areas that were

specifically cut off on cross by their own questioning.

That's all I'm trying to do.

MR. DEUTSCH: Wait a minute.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson --

Wait, I want --

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson, you were going to say

something?

MR. FERGUSON: No, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: First of all, she's got an obligation.

If somebody asks a question on cross that she thinks is

objectionable, she's supposed to stand up and say, "Objection.

It calls for opinion, that the witness is not being offered

for that." She didn't do it. She lets it in and now she

wants to go back and have this witness testify as an expert

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269

and identify everybody who is in the conference.

And the reality is, the witness is basically somebody

who wasn't in the FBI in '93, wasn't involved in this

conference. He simply read this transcript -- this

translation -- two or three times and that's what he's offered

for.

If the cross-examination went too far, object and,

then, the Court would rule on it. Now she can't just --

MS. THOMPSON: And, in addition to that, had he been

identified as an expert, people might have phrased their

questions in different ways. But he said that he was not in

the FBI, he read them a couple of times. So, we asked

questions. And it's like a setup to then turn around and

suddenly he's the big expert on all this material and bring it

up on redirect.

THE COURT: Briefly respond. Go ahead.

MS. HAMILTON: I'm just not sure how -- if the

defense is asking for his understanding of things, how -- it

is remotely objectionable for me to get back up and,

basically, be asking the exact same question on redirect. If

the questions were not artfully worded on cross, that is not

my fault.

MR. DEUTSCH: You object. That's what you do.

MR. SCHAR: No.

THE COURT: But you do not have to.

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270

MS. THOMPSON: The basis of all the questions --

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge --

MS. THOMPSON: -- is the documents themselves, which

are in front of him.

MS. HAMILTON: That was not clear.

THE COURT: To the extent doors were opened on cross,

it is fair game to redirect them.

In answering your -- in asking your questions,

Ms. Hamilton, it would be helpful to refer to what was said on

cross --

MR. DEUTSCH: Yes.

MS. HAMILTON: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: -- to make it clear that that is what you

are doing: Redirecting on issues that came up during cross,

not opening up a whole --

MR. DEUTSCH: Yes.

THE COURT: -- new box of opinions.

So, in focusing your questions -- we will take a

break -- coming back and asking your questions, focus on them

that way.

MR. MOFFITT: May I have a continuing line on the

membership issue, your Honor?

THE COURT: Absolutely. And my continuing ruling

will stand.

MR. MOFFITT: I understand.

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271

MR. DEUTSCH: And, Judge, just so we can follow up,

there was no question asked on cross as, "Who was this

person -- "

THE COURT: That is correct. So --

MR. DEUTSCH: " -- who is this person, who is this

person?" So --

MS. THOMPSON: No.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- for her to go into that is improper.

MS. HAMILTON: There were questions, as I said

before, about the fact that this -- the movement was not

Hamas; that they were not talking about Hamas; they were

talking about a more general movement of --

MR. DEUTSCH: That's what he said.

MS. THOMPSON: That's what he said.

THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait.

MS. HAMILTON: -- of Islamic people generally. No,

that was the question posed on cross. I think it's fair for

me to get back up and say there was a question about whether

or not the movement was Hamas or something more generally:

"What is your understanding of why 'movement' equals 'Hamas'?"

MR. MOFFITT: There was no question about whether

"the movement" referred to Hamas.

MR. DEUTSCH: His answer --

MS. HAMILTON: Right. The question was that the

movement was as to Islamic Palestinian people.

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THE COURT: That was the question.

MR. FERGUSON: Right.

THE COURT: Okay.

You have my direction. On redirect, focus it based

on answers given on cross.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you, Judge.

(Brief recess.)

THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.

(Jury in.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Ms. Hamilton, you may continue.

MS. HAMILTON: Thank you, your Honor.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Agent Miranda, on cross-examination, you were asked

questions about the term "movement"?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you were asked a question that does "the movement"

really mean Palestinian people generally; is that correct?

Something like that?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And I believe your answer was "No"?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. Do you have an understanding as to what the word

"movement" means as used in the Philadelphia conference?

A. Yes, I do, ma'am.

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Q. What is it?

MR. DEUTSCH: Can we get a foundation about when his

understanding was created?

THE COURT: Sustained on foundation.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. When did you come to an understanding as to what the term

"movement" means?

A. As soon as I read this transcript.

Q. And is your understanding based on what was specifically

said at the Philadelphia conference?

A. Yes, it is, ma'am.

Q. And is your understanding based upon who the participants

of the Philadelphia conference were?

A. It's partially it, yes.

Q. And what is your understanding of what "movement" means as

stated in the Philadelphia conference?

A. Hamas.

Q. Among the individuals present at the Philadelphia

conference is an individual you were asked about yesterday on

cross, Nihad Awad; is that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you were asked specific questions about particular

organizations that Nihad Awad is associated with; is that

correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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Miranda - redirect

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Q. What else do you know about Nihad Awad other than what you

were asked on cross-examination?

A. He is associated with an organization called CAIR.

Q. And, generally, what is your understanding of that

organization?

A. CAIR was established under the Palestine Committee during

the tenure of Omar Ahmad as the leader of the Palestine

Committee.

Q. You were asked about the documents -- the first document

-- behind Tab 5, which is a summary of an FBI meeting,

correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And just so it's clear, is this summary an FBI summary?

A. No, not at all.

Q. Do you know who wrote this summary?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Do you know if the summary is accurate?

A. I have no idea.

Q. You were asked about the fact the meeting was between the

FBI and the ADC, correct?

A. That's how the question was posed.

Q. You were not asked about the fact that the IAP was also at

that meeting --

A. You are --

Q. -- is that right?

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Miranda - redirect

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A. You are correct, ma'am.

Q. You were asked what you know about the ADC?

A. That's correct, ma'am.

Q. What do you know about the AIP?

A. About the IAP, ma'am?

Q. Sorry.

A. The IAP was established with the assistance and the funds

of Mousa Abu Marzook, the number two man in Hamas.

Q. And was the IAP represented by anyone at the Philadelphia

conference?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Who represented the IAP at the Philadelphia conference?

A. Ghassan Saleh was one of the representatives. I believe

Omar Ahmad was also one of the representatives. And I'd have

to refresh my memory with the -- some of the other documents.

Q. You were asked questions about the purpose of the ADC?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. What is your understanding of the purpose of the IAP?

A. The purpose of the IAP is to be the mouthpiece of Hamas.

Q. You were asked questions about someone at the conference

speaking about Muhammad Salah, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. According to the translations, who was the someone at the

conference talking about Muhammad Salah 's arrest?

A. It was Ashqar.

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Miranda - redirect

276

Q. And you were asked about your understanding of what was

said at the meeting and what is in the document behind Tab 24

with respect to Muhammad Salah's arrest; is that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. What is your understanding of the message of that document

and that section of the Philadelphia conference?

A. That's the one urging caution and security, I believe, was

the term. But it's my understanding that they are saying just

because you're a U.S. passport holder, doesn't prevent you

from getting arrested while conducting activities on behalf of

Hamas.

Q. You were asked questions about the fact that people came

to this conference and they gave their real names, and they

checked in under their names, and they flew their under their

real names, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Did the planners of this meeting decide that there was

someone who was not allowed to come to the meeting and sign in

under their real name?

A. I don't recall that.

Q. I direct your attention to the phone call that was gone

through in some detail behind Tab 6. Do you have that up

there?

THE COURT: Would you like the jury to turn to Tab 6?

MS. HAMILTON: Yes.

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THE COURT: Okay.

Ladies and gentlemen, please turn in the

Philadelphia --

MS. THOMPSON: Judge, I just object. Is she trying

to refresh his recollection or just have him read it? He said

he doesn't remember and these aren't documents he had anything

to do with.

MS. HAMILTON: He's already testified about this call

in detail on cross-examination.

MR. DEUTSCH: That's not the question.

THE COURT: Are you --

MS. HAMILTON: I'm --

THE COURT: What are you seeking to do with it?

MS. HAMILTON: Refresh his recollection with the

phone call he already testified he looked at it in detail.

THE COURT: Ask your question.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Ma'am, I --

THE COURT: Tab 6, ladies and gentlemen.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I'm sorry, I don't think I have that.

THE COURT: Philadelphia Conference Transcripts?

THE WITNESS: Philadelphia Conference, I'm sorry.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Yes, I have it.

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BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. And I direct your attention to Page 6, Line 8.

THE COURT: Page 6 of Tab 6 --

MS. HAMILTON: Of the phone calls.

THE COURT: Of the phone calls.

There is a little confusion. One moment.

The Philadelphia Conference Transcripts --

MS. HAMILTON: No. Your Honor, I'm sorry, it's --

THE COURT: It is my fault.

MS. HAMILTON: -- Ashqar Phone Calls Tab 6.

THE COURT: Sorry. I caused the confusion.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Ma'am, I don't have that document.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach, Judge?

THE COURT: You may approach the witness.

(Document tendered.)

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Tab 6, Page 6, Line 8, there's a reference to Mohammad

Hilmi?

A. Right.

Q. And what is your understanding of who Mohammad Hilmi is?

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Your Honor, I'd ask for a --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I --

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MR. SPIELFOGEL: -- sidebar on this. Very brief.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. SPIELFOGEL: My understanding of this portion of

that phone call -- and I don't have it right in front of me

now --

MR. DEUTSCH: Here it is.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: The question that was asked by the

prosecutor was whether he had to use a different name and,

then, he could come to the meeting under a different name.

That's not at all what happens in that phone conversation.

MS. HAMILTON: That wasn't my question.

THE COURT: That is not what she just asked. She

asked who he was.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: No, but before that she said -- the

lead-in, she said -- there was discussion as to whether people

had to attend under a different name.

MS. HAMILTON: I said "people who were not allowed to

attend."

MR. SPIELFOGEL: No, that -- and she said "under a

different name." There's nothing --

MS. HAMILTON: They were not allowed to --

THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait.

MS. HAMILTON: -- attend and sign in under a

different name.

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MR. SPIELFOGEL: And the point is that there's

nothing in this phone conversation that talks about that he

can't sign in under that name.

MS. HAMILTON: I can rephrase it, if it's unclear. I

don't want to be confusing.

THE COURT: Okay.

MS. HAMILTON: Because that wasn't what I meant to

ask at all.

THE COURT: That is not how I took it, but I am not

sure what the link to the phone call is.

MS. HAMILTON: I'll rephrase it --

THE COURT: Okay.

MS. HAMILTON: -- if it's confusing.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Let me back up.

On cross-examination, you were asked questions about

this phone call and the fact that it was decided that this

would be an open meeting where anyone off the street could

come in, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you were also asked questions about people coming and

signing in under their true names, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Based upon your review of this phone call, is there anyone

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who the participants on this call decided was not allowed to

come to the meeting?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Who?

A. Mohammad Hilmi.

Q. And based upon what is said in this phone call, what is

your understanding as to why he was not allowed to come?

A. He might have --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Objection.

MR. MOFFITT: That's an opinion.

THE COURT: Sustained.

And you are going beyond -- you are now referring

to -- sustained.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Agent, I direct your attention to Page 37 --

THE COURT: Same call?

MS. HAMILTON: Same call.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. -- Lines 2 through 10. And I'd ask you to publish that,

please, read it.

A. Yes, ma'am.

Baker says: "I am still cautious, my brother. I

mean, let some distance between us and especially in a

situation like this where all the brothers are here. I am not

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against you working with him between you and him. However, I

suspect his presence. From our point of view, we'll be -- but

I still have feelings that those people remain under

surveillance for a period of time and I don't know how his

presence will serve the purpose exactly. I mean, I remain

wary. But, of course, it's up to you. I didn't want to hang

up the phone and say to myself 'Why?'"

Q. And you were asked questions on cross-examination by

Mr. Spielfogel about the fact that there's nothing unusual

about having a phone call setting up a conference, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And there were a number of questions you were asked,

"There's nothing unusual about other aspects of this phone

call, deciding topics and things of that nature"; is that

right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Is there anything unusual about planning a conference

that's supposed to be open but not allowing someone to come

because you believe they may remain under surveillance?

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: To form, sustained.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Is there anything unusual about not allowing someone under

surveillance to attend an open conference?

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Objection. There's nothing in there

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that he's under surveillance.

MS. HAMILTON: I'm reading directly from Line 6 and

7, "under surveillance."

THE COURT: Overruled.

You may answer that.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I think that is -- for most people, I think that would be

unusual. If you're talking about terrorist individuals being

concerned about who --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

And the jury should disregard the last part.

If you are asking him about what is unusual, that is

the answer he has been responding. He was about to answer

about what -- beyond that.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Based upon what's said in this transcript, as was

highlighted on cross-examination, there's a section about it

being an open meeting, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And we just went back to a section where they're talking

about not letting someone come because he is under

surveillance, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Is there anything unusual about that?

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A. I think that's unusual.

Q. You were asked questions on cross-examination about why,

as a federal agent investigating these matters, you don't go

into the West Bank and Gaza to check out the conditions,

right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Why don't you?

A. I want to stay alive.

Q. You were asked about the participants of the Philadelphia

conference being concerned about the effect of the Oslo

Accords, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And there is one section -- a couple sections -- of the

transcript where Muin Shabib, defendant Ashqar and others talk

about their concern about the Islamic University being shut

down --

A. That's correct.

Q. -- correct?

What is your understanding about why the individuals

at this conference were concerned about the Islamic University

being shut down?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. The Islamic University of Gaza is recognized as a Hamas

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stronghold.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. You were asked questions about the fact that participants

at the meeting specifically said there was to be no direct

confrontation in America, correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Based upon what was said at the meeting, what is your

understanding as to why?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. There's not one word in the

meeting about why. This is an opinion that's being offered --

his opinion is being offered -- here, again.

MS. HAMILTON: He was asked about his opinion, but I

can direct him to a specific portion of the transcript.

THE COURT: Okay. Why do you not do that.

MS. HAMILTON: I just need a moment, your Honor.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Do you have a particular tab you would

like the jurors to turn to?

MS. HAMILTON: Yes. In the Philadelphia conference,

Tab 23, Page 6.

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm sorry, what was it?

THE COURT: Tab 23, Page 6 in the Philadelphia

Conference binder.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Agent -- and we went through this on direct examination,

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correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. I direct your attention to Lines 4 through 7.

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And just flipping back, who is speaking?

A. Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. And at Line 4, he says, "When we say 'avoiding any kind of

direct confrontation on the U.S. front,' this is our

understanding of the ramifications of the situation. When we

had a discussion, we understood that if we escalate the

situation on the U.S. front, there will be big problems which

are not in our favor."

What is your understanding of what Shukri Abu Baker

was saying about why there was to be no escalation on the U.S.

front?

MR. MOFFITT: I object to his understanding about

what --

THE COURT: Sustained.

(Brief pause.)

MS. HAMILTON: One moment, your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Brief pause.)

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. You were asked questions on cross-examination about your

understanding that there was nothing in the Philadelphia

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conference about planning military activity in the United

States?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And your answer was that there was not any discussion

about planning military activity in the United States?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Do you have an understanding based upon this section and

others as to why?

A. Any escalation of activities --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

MS. THOMPSON: Objection, Judge.

MR. MOFFITT: It's the same question rephrased as the

one that was sustained just a minute ago.

MS. HAMILTON: It is not. I tied it directly back to

a question asked on cross-examination.

MR. MOFFITT: Excuse me. The question, I believe,

that was asked on cross-examination is, "Did you examine the

transcript and did you find anything in there that talked

about violence or anything?"

Now she's asking the question why. And that's his

opinion.

THE COURT: Ms. Hamilton?

MS. HAMILTON: The question was not that specific.

MS. THOMPSON: Judge, I asked the question and it was

very specific. I picked up the binder. I showed him the

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binder. I said, "Is there any evidence in here of any mention

of it?" I used the word "mention." I used the binder. I

showed it to him. It was no broader than that and

Ms. Hamilton knows it.

MS. HAMILTON: I don't believe that's correct. I

think that it was his understanding of whether there was any

discussion about it.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

(Brief pause.)

MS. HAMILTON: Your Honor, just a moment. I'm sorry.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Anything further?

MS. HAMILTON: Just one question.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Based upon your review of this section and others like it,

was there discussion at the Philadelphia conference about

military action in the United States?

MS. THOMPSON: Objection as to form, Judge. "And

others like it"? There was specific questions. This is the

same question. She's trying to reword it by simply putting in

some vague notion about others like it and it's the same

question, again.

THE COURT: Overruled. The question is focused on

the transcripts.

BY THE WITNESS:

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A. Can you repeat the question, again, ma'am?

MS. HAMILTON: Your Honor, could you read it, please?

THE COURT: Sure.

(Whereupon, the record was read by the Court.)

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I do not recall that.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. This particular section was --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge --

MS. THOMPSON: Objection.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- now because he can't recall --

MS. HAMILTON: He said he can't recall.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- and she doesn't like that answer.

THE COURT: He said he cannot recall. If you need to

point him to a specific provision in there or a specific line,

you may do so.

BY MS. HAMILTON:

Q. Focusing on the line that was published -- I'm sorry,

Agent -- Tab 23, Page 6, Lines 4 through 7.

A. It does not specifically say military. It does mention

escalating the situation and ramifications of that and there

being big problems as a result.

Q. And what do you take that to mean?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

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THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. HAMILTON: No further questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Spielfogel.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. SPIELFOGEL:

Q. Agent, did you just tell us that the Islamic University is

a university that's a strong front for Hamas? Is that

correct?

A. I called it a stronghold of Hamas.

Q. Stronghold of Hamas; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There to benefit the people of Hamas; is that correct? Is

that your understanding?

A. Can you rephrase the "benefit" asked?

Q. Well, let me ask you this: The Islamic University, do you

know what kind of courses they teach over at that university?

A. Haven't been there, sir.

Q. Okay.

Do you know if they teach courses in business and in

education?

A. Don't know.

Q. Do you know if they teach courses in sciences, pharmacy

and agriculture?

A. Don't know.

Q. Do you know if they teach nursing, engineering, medicine

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and computer sciences?

A. Don't know.

Q. Do you think that those things would only be for the

benefit of people who are associated with Hamas?

A. That's not what I said.

Q. You told us -- I'm trying to understand this.

Are you saying that you can't have a meeting in this

country where you don't speak about violence and you speak

about ideas if you are labeled part of a movement? That's --

you're not supposed to do that in this country?

A. I think your question is pretty general. And I think I'd

have to look at the circumstances of meetings that you're

talking about.

Q. I'm talking about a movement, part of the movement that

we're talking about that we're on trial here today.

Are you trying to tell us that you cannot have a

meeting of those people -- when you don't discuss violence and

you discuss the things that are in those transcripts -- that

you can't do that in this country?

A. I can tell you that if you want to go ahead and discuss

supporting a -- terrorist groups, you might have to eat those

words later on.

Q. You can't -- can't I have a meeting in this country -- the

Ku Klux Klan can have a meeting, can't they?

A. And I hope to God we're listening to them.

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Q. And they can go and they can have demonstrations; is that

right?

A. And I hope they're surveilling them.

Q. And so can the -- and you can surveil them all you want;

isn't that true?

A. If I'm legally entitled to, yes.

Q. But the fact of the matter is that in this country, they

can have their meeting and they can present their ideas; isn't

that true?

A. And their ideas may be evidence later on, sir.

Q. And they should be convicted for their ideas?

A. I don't think anybody's been convicted on an idea.

Q. Aren't there countries where you can't even have the idea

and express it in the public?

A. Are we still talking about the U.S. or other countries

now, sir?

Q. I said other countries. Countries --

A. Sure, there's other countries.

Q. But in this country, you can?

A. You can, but the ramifications are that it may be

evidence.

Q. But you're not going to be convicted of a crime just for

expressing ideas. That's what this country is all about;

isn't it, Agent?

A. You would never be convicted on your word alone. But

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those words may represent what the people think --

Q. And --

A. -- and shine light onto their actions and on who they

really are.

Q. And as you've told us here today, there was no discussion

about violence in that Philly meeting. There was a discussion

on ideas; isn't that correct?

A. Ideas on supporting Hamas, a terrorist organization.

Q. And if you support -- by the way, it wasn't a terrorist

organization -- it wasn't designated that -- at the time of

that meeting. We've established that, haven't we?

A. It was a terrorist organization. Designation was not a

function of the U.S. government until 1995. But -- --

Q. Let me ask you --

A. -- it was a terrorist organization, sir.

Q. Let me ask you this: This meeting happened in '93; is

that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay.

And in '93, the FBI -- obviously, they had this whole

thing bugged; is that right?

A. They had it surveilled and -- yes, sir.

Q. And this is a meeting of an organization that you're

telling us is a terrorist organization; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

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Q. And we already at this time had -- Dr. Ashqar's phones had

been wired; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In 1994, did they indict Dr. Ashqar?

A. No, they sure didn't.

Q. In '95 and in '96, did they indict Dr. Ashqar?

A. No.

Q. It's 13 years later that we've brought him into this

courtroom; isn't that correct?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

He can answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Yes, sir.

BY MR. SPIELFOGEL:

Q. And he didn't say one word at that meeting about the use

of violence; isn't that correct? Isn't that correct, Agent?

A. I'm trying to figure out whether he was involved in

talking about the military against the Israelis. That's all

--

Q. Well --

A. -- I'm trying to decide.

Q. -- think about that.

Did Dr. Ashqar ever, during the course of that

conversation, advocate the use of violence?

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A. I don't think -- certainly not directly.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I have nothing else, Judge.

THE COURT: Ms. Thompson?

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you, Judge. Just a few

questions.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Agent Miranda, CAIR is an acronysm (sic), isn't it?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. CAIR is an acronysm (sic)?

A. Acronym?

Q. Yes. Sorry. Acronym.

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And it stands for the Council on American Islamic

Relations; isn't that right?

A. I think it's Council on Arab Islamic Relations.

Q. And, in fact, they have a national office, right?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. A national office.

They have an office in Chicago; isn't that right?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. And they have 30 offices across the United States; isn't

that true?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. And on that document that Ms. Hamilton pointed to you, you

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don't have any basis to dispute the accuracy of what's

contained in that document because, as you told this jury on

cross-examination, you never sought out the FBI version of

that meeting, did you?

A. That's not correct. You just misspoke. I didn't -- I

said I personally didn't. You --

Q. My question was: Did you --

A. Ma'am, can I --

Q. -- seek it out?

A. -- finish my answer?

Can I finish?

Q. You can answer my question, sir.

Did you seek out the FBI version of that document?

You, sir.

A. And my answer was other agents did.

Q. You did not, though?

A. Other agents did.

Q. My question is: Did you, sir?

A. And I answered earlier I didn't, ma'am. I said --

Q. Thank you.

A. -- other agents did.

Q. Now, you were not part of the FBI in 1993; is that right?

A. Correct, ma'am.

Q. And do you know who Robert Wright is -- Special Agent

Robert Wright -- with the FBI?

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A. Yeah, I sure do.

Q. Okay.

And, in fact, he at that time in those early years

was the Hamas expert, wasn't he?

MS. HAMILTON: Objection. Relevance, beyond the

scope. The question --

THE COURT: Overruled.

You can answer that.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. No, I would disagree with you on that.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. He was, in fact, investigating Hamas for the FBI in the

early years; was he not?

A. He was one of many agents investigating Hamas.

Q. And, in fact, he was headquartered here in Chicago, wasn't

he?

A. That's my understanding, yes.

Q. And, in fact, he was fired twice because the FBI said that

he was a nut; isn't that right?

A. I don't understand the -- why he was --

Q. I don't --

A. -- dismissed.

Q. You don't understand why he was dismissed?

Did you ever hear that Robert Wright was a nut in the

investigation and the intelligence on Hamas that he created?

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MS. HAMILTON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. Well, you know he was fired twice, right?

A. No, actually, I don't know that he was fired twice. I --

Q. Well, you know he was only hired back by the President of

the United States today, George Bush, Jr., right?

A. No, I didn't know that, either.

Q. Well, it's your opinion, in fact, that the Philadelphia

conference was just all about terrorism, isn't it?

A. Sure is.

Q. But, in fact, none of the participants of the Philadelphia

conference, which are listed at the front of that binder, were

indicted in 1993, were they?

A. In '93, no. Not in 1993.

Q. Were any of them indicted in 1994?

A. Not in 1994.

Q. '95?

THE COURT: Ms. Thompson, let him finish his answer,

please.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Not in 1995.

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. '96?

A. Nope.

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Q. 13 years later, none of these people have been indicted

and yet you look at it and you say it's all about terrorism;

is that right?

A. Actually, it wasn't 13 years. Ghassan Elashi, Haitham

Maghawri, Shukri Abu Baker were indicted in 2002. In --

Q. And, in fact, that's been --

A. I'm not done with my answer, ma'am.

Q. Let me stop you.

MS. HAMILTON: Your Honor --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I'm not entitled to finish my answer?

BY MS. THOMPSON:

Q. You may finish your answer.

A. So, let's see. Ghassan Elashi was indicted in 2002 in a

case that I was --

Q. I don't need to know the case. I asked you what year.

A. Oh, okay. 2002.

Shukri Baker, Haitham Maghawri, Ghassan Elashi -- let

me look at the list -- were indicted in 19 -- or, I'm sorry,

2004.

Q. Is it --

A. And -- wait, I'm not done yet.

Let's see. Abdel Jabbar Hamdan was ordered deported,

I think it was, this year.

Q. And isn't it a fact that there was no action taken by any

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prior administration until right before the last contested

Presidential election?

A. No, that's not entirely correct, either.

Q. Now, let me ask you, is it your opinion that Israel is a

terrorist state?

A. No, they're not on the state sponsors of terrorism.

Q. And, in fact, CAIR isn't on the state-sponsored terrorism

list, either?

A. A state sponsor only applies to a state, ma'am. CAIR is

an organization.

Q. CAIR --

A. It's not a state.

Q. But CAIR isn't listed as a terrorist organization, is it?

A. Are you asking -- are you asking -- me now is it a state

sponsor or a specially-designated --

Q. I'm asking you --

A. -- terrorist group?

Q. -- whether it's a specially-designated terrorist

organization.

A. Thank you.

No, it's not.

Q. And, in fact, just a moment ago you told Ms. Hamilton that

the reason you don't go to Gaza to study the situation there

is you want to stay alive, right?

A. That's right.

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Q. Is that because you're scared of being run over by an

Israeli bulldozer like Rachel Corey was?

A. The -- there were --

Q. Answer the question. It's a "Yes" or "No" question,

Agent.

A. I'm answering your question, ma'am.

Q. Is it because you're scared of being run over by an

Israeli bulldozer like Rachel Corey; "Yes" or "No"?

A. I'm afraid of being blown up like the American diplomats

were.

MS. THOMPSON: No further questions of this witness.

THE COURT: Thank you, Agent. You may step down.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

* * * * *

I certify that the foregoing is a correct excerpt from the

record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

, 2006

Official Court Reporter

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