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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

EASTERN DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Docket No. 03 CR 978

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. )

)

MUHAMMAD HAMID KHALIL SALAH AND )

ABDELHALEEM HASAN ABDELRAZIQ ASHQAR, ) Chicago, Illinois

) October 24, 2006

Defendants. ) 11:00 o'clock a.m.

VOLUME SIX

TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE AMY J. ST. EVE, AND A JURY

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff: HON. PATRICK J. FITZGERALD

United States Attorney

BY: MR. JOSEPH M. FERGUSON

MR. REID J. SCHAR

MS. CARRIE E. HAMILTON

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 500

Chicago, Illinois 60604

For Deft. Salah: PEOPLE'S LAW OFFICES

BY: MR. MICHAEL EDWARD DEUTSCH

MS. ERICA THOMPSON

1180 North Milwaukee Avenue

Chicago, Illinois 60622

LAW OFFICE OF ROBERT BLOOM

BY: MR. ROBERT JAY BLOOM

3355 Richmond Boulevard

Oakland, California 94611

For Deft. Ashqar: MR. KEITH ALLAN SPIELFOGEL

20 North Clark Street, Suite 1200

Chicago, Illinois 60602

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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):

For Deft. Ashqar (Cont'd): MR. WILLIAM MOFFITT

11582 Greenwich Point Road

Reston, Virginia 20194

Also Present: S/A BRADLEY BENAVIDES, FBI

S/A JILL PETTORELLI, FBI

Court Reporter: MR. JOSEPH RICKHOFF

Official Court Reporter

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 1232

Chicago, Illinois 60604

(312) 435-5562

MS. KATHLEEN FENNELL

Official Court Reporter

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 2144

Chicago, Illinois 60604

(312) 435-5569

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PROCEEDINGS RECORDED BY

MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY

TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER

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209

THE CLERK: 03 CR 978, USA vs. Muhammad Salah and

Abdelhaleem Ashqar.

THE COURT: Good morning.

MR. MOFFITT: Good morning, your Honor.

MR. DEUTSCH: Good morning.

MR. SCHAR: Good morning, Judge, Reid Schar and

Carrie Hamilton on behalf of the United States. Mr. Ferguson

is on his way up. He should be here by 11:00.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: Michael Deutsch --

THE COURT: It is 11:00. That clock is slow, just so

you know.

MR. SCHAR: Mr. Ferguson is late.

(Laughter.)

MR. DEUTSCH: Michael Deutsch, Robert Bloom and

Muhammad Salah here for Muhammad Salah.

Ms. Thompson is -- will be here.

THE COURT: Okay.

What happened with respect to Mr. Salah? I thought

we were delaying today so he could go to mosque.

THE DEFENDANT SALAH: Just -- they sighted the moon,

like, 11:00 p.m. So, they decided to pray on Monday.

MR. DEUTSCH: I guess at the last minute -- they look

at where the position of the moon is, and I guess at the last

minute they changed their position and decided to pray on

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Monday.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: Good morning, your Honor, William

Moffitt, Keith Spielfogel and Dr. Ashqar.

THE COURT: Good morning.

And Mr. Ferguson is present now.

I have two things I would like to take up.

The clock is slow, Mr. Ferguson. I see you looking

at it.

I have two things I would like to take up, and then I

will take up anything else you have for me to take up.

I would like to take up where we left off with

respect to the testimony of Dr. Levitt -- and, Mr. Spielfogel,

I think this is you; you filed a motion with respect to it on

Monday, in response to my invitation to do so -- in

particular, addressing the issue of whether or not Dr. Levitt

can opine that, in his opinion, Hamas carried out certain

acts.

And, then, the other issue I would like to take up

this morning is the Court's instruction that I gave you on the

CIPA substitutions.

First, with respect to the motion regarding

Dr. Levitt, I did not see anything from the government

yesterday, Mr. Ferguson.

MR. FERGUSON: The motion that was filed yesterday by

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Dr. Ashqar, the government is prepared to respond orally,

Judge.

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.

MR. FERGUSON: Ready?

THE COURT: Go ahead. I am ready.

MR. FERGUSON: All right.

There are six separate arguments that were raised in

that motion.

Joe, if I start talking too fast, just throw up the

red flag.

The first is that Dr. Levitt's testimony because --

it is inappropriate because -- it is with respect to the

mental state or intent of the defendant. Quite frankly,

Judge, I have no idea what that's about because Dr. Levitt in

no way is going to comment on Dr. Ashqar's mental state in any

respect.

What he is testifying to is the pattern of terrorist

acts undertaken by the enterprise which is charged in the

indictment, for which defendant is charged with conspiring to

further by various unlawful means. He is not going to be

testifying as to Dr. Ashqar's mental state.

The second argument: Testimony on the ultimate fact,

also characterized as "the usurpation of the jury's province."

Judge, our position there is, the ultimate fact here

is defendant Ashqar's participation in a conspiracy to assist

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and provide facilitating support to the charged enterprise.

Dr. Levitt isn't testifying on that matter.

The government disagrees that it's improper for

Dr. Levitt, on the basis of his expertise in the field, to

offer an opinion on whether terrorist strikes that are to be

discussed were Hamas attacks. However, for the sake of

getting us through the issue, we're prepared to limit

Dr. Levitt's testimony -- and it's something that was signaled

last Friday with respect to the Court's remarks -- limit his

testimony only to his expert opinion that the attacks

discussed were claimed by Hamas or were attacks for which

Hamas took credit or responsibility through various means.

Thus, leaving to argument and to ultimate findings by the jury

whether they were or were not Hamas attacks.

But Dr. Levitt is not going to testify that these --

he's not going to offer the -- I guess, the -- final position

that these were Hamas attacks.

That, I think, peeling it back to that point, largely

addresses all of the remaining arguments. But in very quick

order, "the testimony goes beyond his qualifications." That's

cast in terms of his qualification to offer on whether the

attack was a Hamas attack versus simply claiming

responsibility.

The 403 argument is cast on the same terms, as well.

But, in general, on the 403 issue, we would say, Judge, that

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this is a case about conspiratorial involvement in a terrorist

organization. We're going to talk about terrorism.

Finally, "that it's outside the scope of the expert

summary."

We think, Judge, that the expert summary or report or

disclosure or notice covered this base. It's very broad.

That being said, by paring it back to what I have just

discussed, it is certainly within -- and I'm reading now from

the government's letter to defense counsel disclosing

Dr. Levitt as an expert --

THE COURT: Is this Exhibit 1 to the motion?

MR. FERGUSON: It is, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. FERGUSON: -- "Hamas' uses of use of force and

violence to achieve its goals; but, more particularly, Hamas'

claims of responsibility for a variety of terrorist attacks,

as well as the method and means by which Hamas claims

responsibility for various terrorist attacks."

And that's what we're focused -- that's what we're

going to focus on here.

That being said, I think the final argument, as well,

with respect to the Sixth Amendment confrontation rights,

also, goes to the -- whether or not Dr. Levitt would be

opining as to whether they were not Hamas attacks. That's not

the case here.

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But, in general, Judge, I would say the witness is on

the stand. He's certainly going to be confronted on

cross-examination as to what it is he does say.

THE COURT: It sounds like your motion is moot.

MR. MOFFITT: I would only raise one other issue.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. MOFFITT: And it goes to the Sixth Amendment

issue.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: Dr. Levitt, by his testimony, is

adopting what someone told him as the basis of his testimony.

If he has any notes or anything with regard to that -- those

interviews or where he got the information -- I would suggest

to the Court because of his adoption of that information,

that's Jencks material and should be provided.

THE COURT: My impression from what he testified to

was that he has written about all of these topics in his

books, articles, et cetera, which address all of the issues he

is opining on have been disclosed to you.

MR. MOFFITT: I don't disagree with that. The book I

bought -- we bought -- personally. All right?

But the book doesn't say, for instance, "I spoke to

James Jones. James Jones told me X, Y and Z." The book is

more of the historical record and it doesn't discuss it in

those terms.

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What Dr. Levitt has testified to is that he used

newspapers, that he used interviews and various -- that kind

of background information.

THE COURT: Web sites, reviewed Hamas --

MR. MOFFITT: What I am --

THE COURT: -- publications.

MR. MOFFITT: Right.

THE COURT: I am trying to remember the interview

part.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, let me give you --

THE COURT: He spoke with diplomats, he said --

MR. FERGUSON: Diplomats.

THE COURT: -- state officials.

MR. FERGUSON: Government officials on both sides.

And there was -- but he actually has also testified that he

has actually interviewed terrorists. And there's one instance

in particular he spoke of -- which was the Park Hotel bombing,

I think, which occurred in 2002 -- in which he had interviewed

two of the people involved in the cell supporting the suicide

bomber in that respect. That is in his book.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, can I be heard, please?

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. MOFFITT: I want to finish.

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm sorry.

MR. MOFFITT: But go ahead.

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MR. DEUTSCH: No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

MR. MOFFITT: To the extent he is relying on that

type of source material and adopting it, I believe that that

would be Jencks material and we should be entitled to it.

In other words, when the government says, "You have

the right to cross-examine him," I have a right to ask him

questions, but I don't have the right to cross-examine him if

I don't have the materials.

For instance, I can't say to Dr. Levitt, "On

such-and-such a day, you interviewed this person. How did you

know that this person was involved in Hamas on -- "

THE COURT: Sure you can. You can say that. Nothing

--

MR. MOFFITT: Well, but I don't know the person that

he interviewed. So, I'm asking a series of cross-examination

questions entirely in the dark and I have to make a decision

about whether or not I can ask them.

And I've never had an expert rely on that kind of

face-to-face contact.

THE COURT: Are those sources not -- I have not

bought or read the book, but are those sources not identified

in his book or articles?

MR. FERGUSON: Sources are identified.

Judge, as a general backdrop here, what we're talking

about is the reliance on hearsay by an expert, which is

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completely appropriate. I did elicit from Dr. Levitt at an

earlier stage of his testimony on Friday, I believe, that he

assessed the individuals to be Hamas because the individuals

told him that they were Hamas. He writes of those individuals

and the instance in his book.

There is -- at some level here, there is -- an

attempt to push the concept of Jencks -- I mean, look, taken

to its logical conclusion, really what's being called upon

here is for Dr. Levitt to produce every bit of writing that he

has ever generated underlying his actual publications.

THE COURT: Right.

MR. FERGUSON: Every piece of paper.

That's just not how the expert testimony procedures

function here. And they are on full notice as to what his

positions are and what the sources of these materials are,

generally.

THE COURT: Does his book disclose these interviews

and substance of them?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I don't -- I didn't -- I ran up

here, obviously, and --

MR. DEUTSCH: It does not, Judge.

MR. MOFFITT: Here it is.

MR. DEUTSCH: Does not.

Let me be clear here.

THE COURT: Wait.

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Are you finished, Mr. Moffitt?

MR. MOFFITT: No, I was actually -- I was allowing my

colleague to look at his book, if he wanted.

THE COURT: I understand, but are you finished with

your argument?

MR. MOFFITT: Yes. Yes, ma'am.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: Mr. Ferguson continues to refer to

Mr. Levitt's interview with Hamas terrorists. Okay?

Those interviews occurred in, as I understand it, in

2002 and later. Okay?

What I'm mostly concerned with are allegations that

are contained by Mr. Levitt that occur prior to the time that

Mr. Salah was arrested and in Israel, which is January of

1993.

And, particularly, I'm concerned with what's

indicated on this chart, which is dated February 13th, 1992,

which says, "The Al-Qassam Brigades identified as the Hamas

military wing." And, then, after that it says, "Following the

February 9th, '92, bombing in Gaza which injured three"; that

"Al-Qassam Brigades claimed credit"; "Hamas military commander

Salah Shahadah is later identified as the Al-Qassam Brigades

founder."

It seems to me what's being said here is there was a

bombing in February 9th, '92, that somebody claimed credit

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for. And that is the basis of this kind of indirect notation.

Because it doesn't actually list the bombing. It lists it as

something going back to -- it says 2-13-92 is when credit is

taken for something that happened 2-90- -- February 9th, '92.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

Mr. Levitt, in 1992, was a college student. Okay?

He wasn't an expert. He wasn't involved in anything. So, he

obviously had some document which he's relying on to make this

conclusion. I'm entitled to that document to say -- if it's

something taking credit, if it's a police report about what

happened, if it's some other person that told him that.

If I'm going to confront him about this, I need to

know what he's basing this conclusion on that this was a

bombing in Gaza in February, 1992. I think that's critical to

my case. For him to get on the witness stand and say there

was this, without giving us any background, is just unfair and

it denies Sixth Amendment right. He doesn't talk about this

in his book. He doesn't show us any type of basis for it in

his book or any of his writings.

So, specifically, I'm entitled to know what he bases

that entry on that there was a bombing on February 9th, '92,

in which some brigade allegedly associated with Hamas took

credit.

Beyond that, one other point I want to make. And the

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Court knows very well that I've tried to make this point with

Mr. Ferguson's direct.

According to his chart, there was a Hamas bombing

foiled on November 19th, '92, in which he says, "Al-Qassam

Brigade operatives attempted a car bombing in a heavilypopulated area in the center of the country." It doesn't even

say where it is. It doesn't say anything about it. What is

he basing that on? Is it a report? Is it a police report?

Is it a conversation with some intelligence -- Israeli

intelligence -- officer?

It gives the impression that there was some kind of

car bombing in November 19th, '92, in a heavily-populated area

in the center of the country. That's pretty vague. It's not

in his book. It's not in any of his writings. So, I think

we're entitled to know the basis of that conclusion, at least

what he's relying on. Of course he can rely on hearsay.

We're not saying he can't. But what is the hearsay he's

relying on?

Finally, April 16th, 1993, which is several months

after Mr. Salah was arrested, he indicates that there -- "a

Hamas suicide bombing, driving an explosive-laden van." And,

of course --

THE COURT: I am sorry, what date was that?

MR. DEUTSCH: That's February 16th, 1993. That's the

first entry on the second page.

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THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: And, of course, this is very important.

THE COURT: April 16th?

MR. DEUTSCH: April 16th.

THE COURT: Okay. That is --

MR. DEUTSCH: After -- it's after -- Mr. Salah is in

prison, but it's still important because I have read experts

who have written books about Hamas and who have said

repeatedly that the first Hamas suicide bombing was in April

of 1994, not '93. And I think I'm entitled to know what he

bases this determination that this was a Hamas suicide bombing

on April 16th, 1993. Again, I don't object to him testifying

on hearsay. But, again, I think I'm entitled to have the

basis for his determination of that.

And, so, it seems to me if I'm going to at least

challenge his conclusion that -- the dates of these things and

whether they actually happened, we're entitled to know that.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: A lot of this will be elicited. This

is a summary chart, Judge. It is a summary simply to aid what

is a fairly long sequence -- and certainly not a complete

sequence -- of attacks. The witness is going to testify as to

sourcing of materials for these various things.

And they're public sources. We're talking public

sources. He is an expert researcher and analyst on the

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subject of Hamas, for whom the defense has substantial

publications and could equally have combed, on the basis of

the long list of publications that were provided in the CV of

Mr. Levitt, what he has out there. It is no secret what he is

talking about. The defense certainly had the capacity to go

and comb public databases.

I will tell you, Judge, for example, with respect to

the whole early sequence -- when I say "early," let's just say

1989 until 1997 -- Hamas published -- publishes -- what

Dr. Levitt has already referred to as a glory record.

THE COURT: As a, what?

MR. FERGUSON: The glory record, which is a listing

in laudatory terms of all sorts of terrorist attacks. It's

publicly available. These things generally, they're on the

glory record. They're all on the glory record.

In some instances, he's going to talk about -- well,

in most instances, he's going to talk about -- the fact that

these things are broadly publicized. In a number of

instances, he'll be talking about it in the glory record. In

other instances, he'll be talking about Hamas declarations

that he -- that have been issued publicly.

None of this is a secret. All of it's subject to

cross-examination. If the witness doesn't have an adequate

basis for his offering that Hamas has claimed responsibility,

it certainly will come out on cross-examination. If

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Mr. Deutsch disagrees as to what other analysts would suggest

is the first Hamas date, that's cross-examination.

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, I would raise with you, if

he's now testifying as a summary witness, Rule 1006.

THE COURT: Well, I do not think he is --

MR. FERGUSON: No, it's not --

THE COURT: -- testifying as a summary.

MR. FERGUSON: My --

THE COURT: He is testifying -- my understanding --

as an expert. And the timeline that we talked about last

Thursday is a demonstrative exhibit they want to use with him

to assist him in his testimony, not a summary that is going to

be admitted substantively into evidence. It is just for

demonstrative purposes.

MR. FERGUSON: Correct.

THE COURT: So, that rule does not apply.

With respect -- go ahead.

MR. FERGUSON: I just want to make a point here. The

draft that existed last week, in light of the objections that

were raised by the defense with respect to what it

characterized as the ultimate issue -- that is, whether Hamas,

in fact, did these things -- we have edited this to remove

Hamas and the references to Hamas attack to attack to attack.

I think a lot of them actually say "a Hamas suicide bomber."

So, there is a cleaned-up version of that I will hand out --

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THE COURT: May I have a copy of that, too, please?

MR. FERGUSON: -- to everybody.

THE COURT: With re- --

(Document tendered to the Court.)

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I would just ask if, in fact,

they have a document which Mr. Levitt relied on in reaching

his conclusion, for example, that there was a Hamas car

bombing foiled, which is indicated 11-19-92; or, that there

was in the center of the country, which is pretty vague, I

would submit to you. If he has a document on which he's

relying on and the government has it, they should turn it over

to us.

THE COURT: Well, if you look at the revised timeline

that I was just given, as well, it looks like a lot of these

Hamas references are taken out, as Mr. Ferguson just

explained.

Mr. Ferguson, do you have any specific underlying

documents?

MR. FERGUSON: What I've handed up to the Court that

should include an edited-down timeline are additional

materials that include declarations, statements of attribution

by Hamas, by the Al-Qassam brigades, by the Hamas Web site;

other materials from the Hamas Web site.

I have -- and I will bring back with me shortly, if

the Court would like, and we will do so -- the Hamas glory

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record which, I think, we have copied and should have been in

this packet. And I apologize for not having it with me at the

moment. That will speak to that, as well.

Beyond that, Judge, a lot of what we're talking about

is simply Lexis/Nexis search materials. You take -- you do a

search, you get fifty hits, you get a hundred hits. Have a

few been picked out? Sure. Do we have a stack somewhere?

Sure. But it's just this is sort of opening us up to just an

absurd claim of what discovery requires here.

And if, you know, the defense would like to have

copies of that, we'll make copies of it.

THE COURT: Rule 705 of the Federal Rules of Evidence

and the Seventh Circuit in the Lawson opinion make clear that

you do not have to turn over all of the underlying facts and

disclose all of the underlying data that an expert is relying

on.

Let us hear what his testimony is.

You have disclosed his writings, which, given the

peer review they have been through, I am assuming set forth

the sources clearly that he has relied upon in making his

assertions.

He's published many, many, many, many, articles that

were noted in his CV. All of those have been identified and

turned over to give you adequate basis to cross-examine him.

We have not heard any testimony yet regarding these underlying

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events. Let us take it one at a time and see what the basis

is; and, if you have an objection at that point, you can raise

it.

And with respect to the motion that was filed to

exclude a portion of Dr. Levitt's testimony, your motion is

denied as moot, in light of the government's representation

that it is not going to elicit testimony from Dr. Levitt

regarding his opinion as to who was ultimately responsible for

these bombings.

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, I'm --

THE COURT: Without saying more, that is a wise

decision.

Yes?

MR. MOFFITT: With respect to the admission of any

Internet information, I'm going to raise a question as to the

reliability of any Internet information, so that the Court

should know that; and, we'd like to be heard before the

government enters any Internet information.

THE COURT: I do not think it plans to enter any into

evidence. I think that is just part of what Dr. Levitt said

he relied on.

MR. FERGUSON: It's part of what he relied on. It's

the government's intention, however, to -- in light of all the

objections that have been raised in front of the jury and in

the sidebar and in the papers -- to actually put before

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Dr. Levitt some of these declarations, for example, which can

be printed off of the Internet. And he will testify as to

them being materials that are relied on within his field and

part of what causes him to conclude that Hamas has, in fact,

taken responsibility.

Our intention is to publish them as demonstratives so

that the jury can see the Arabic that says "Hamas" with the

seal of Hamas or Al-Qassam, and so on. But it's not going to

be admitted into evidence as substantive evidence for the

jury. Simply, they'll be a series of demonstratives which he

will testify to.

MR. MOFFITT: The reliability of the Internet has got

to be of some question to everybody in this courtroom. I

mean, we deal with things like false identities on the

Internet all the time. The question -- there has to be a

question beyond what is said on the Internet, it seems to me,

as to whether or not you can rely on the Internet.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, it's cross-examination as to

reliability of the materials that the witness says he's relied

upon to form an opinion as to a claim of responsibility.

THE COURT: I agree.

If you have a specific objection with respect to a

specific document, you can raise it; but, I agree that is a

weight issue. And you are free to cross-examine on it.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, we would --

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THE COURT: And, also, he -- I am sorry, one more

thing, Mr. Deutsch.

MR. DEUTSCH: Sorry.

THE COURT: He has testified that experts in the

field rely on this, and he is testifying as an expert.

Yes, Mr. Deutsch?

MR. DEUTSCH: We've been given a folder of documents

just now by Mr. Ferguson. And I, obviously, haven't had time

to read them, but I'm noticing that each one of the documents

that have been given to us starts out with an Arabic version

and, then, behind it there's a translation. You can just look

at the first one.

THE COURT: Yes, I see.

MR. DEUTSCH: And if you notice, on top of the

document, it says, "Salah 00549." I don't know if he intends

to show --

MR. FERGUSON: Judge --

THE COURT: Mine does not.

MR. DEUTSCH: Oh.

MR. FERGUSON: The translations are not going into

evidence.

THE COURT: Oh, I see where you mean. Okay.

MR. FERGUSON: For --

THE COURT: The Arabic does not on mine, the English

version does.

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MR. FERGUSON: Correct. The Arabic would have a

stamping on it that's a YF number.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: There may be a document or two that

says "Salah" in the translation. That's an oversight.

The translation is not going into evidence. It's not

being put up on a screen. Nothing --

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

MR. FERGUSON: -- at all.

I would add that the "YF" designation reflects

materials that were provided in discovery two years ago to the

defense.

THE COURT: Okay.

Anything else on Dr. Levitt?

(No response.)

THE COURT: Is he here?

MR. FERGUSON: He's here, but I've got to go get him.

I think the Court's instruction was to be here at 11:45.

THE COURT: I am just making sure he is --

MR. FERGUSON: Okay.

THE COURT: -- in the building or somewhere close.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge --

THE COURT: We do not have a jury yet, so we cannot

begin.

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah.

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THE COURT: I would like to -- and, Mr. Deutsch, this

is more of your issue -- take up the Court instruction that I

gave you the other day on classified information.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I --

THE COURT: I brought extra copies for you in case --

assuming you probably did not bring yours.

MR. DEUTSCH: I was just going to suggest -- we had a

little logistics problem today.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, if I could step out --

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. FERGUSON: -- so that I could get --

THE COURT: You may.

MR. FERGUSON: -- the witness?

THE COURT: Is Mr. Schar going to take --

MR. FERGUSON: I'll get all the materials ready and

Mr. Schar will carry on.

THE COURT: You may.

MR. FERGUSON: Thank you.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, we had a little logistics

problem today and Ms. Thompson had to leave and is going to be

back. I know you want to do it now, but can we -- she's

really the one -- can we wait?

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you so much.

THE COURT: All right.

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The jury -- they are supposed to be here at 11:45.

If they are all here and ready to go a little bit early, I

will start a little bit early.

MR. DEUTSCH: Fine. Thank you.

THE COURT: Anything else for me that I need to take

up, Mr. Deutsch?

Mr. Moffitt?

MR. MOFFITT: No, ma'am.

THE COURT: Anything else before --

MR. SCHAR: No, Judge.

THE COURT: -- Mr. Schar?

Okay.

I will be back when the jury is all here and we will

get going.

Dr. Levitt -- I will give you a warning before I

bring them in so you can put Dr. Levitt on the stand.

See you in about 20 minutes or so.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken at 11:27 o'clock a.m.,

until 12:00 o'clock p.m., after which the following

further proceedings were had in open court, to wit:)

THE COURT: Is Dr. Levitt here?

MR. SCHAR: Yes.

THE COURT: Our jury is all here now.

Bring Dr. Levitt in, please, and I will bring in the

jury.

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Levitt - direct

232

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Please come forward, Dr. Levitt.

Theresa, would you go get the jury, please.

(Brief pause.)

(Jury in.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

We are going to continue with the presentation of

evidence.

Dr. Levitt is still on the stand.

Dr. Levitt, let me remind you that you are still

under oath, sir.

MATTHEW LEVITT, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY SWORN

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson, you may continue.

MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Judge.

DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Levitt.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. When we broke off on Friday, I think we were discussing

aspects of the structure and operation of the military wing of

Hamas.

Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Please remind us of the name of the military wing.

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Levitt - direct

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A. The Iz Al-Din Al-Qassam Brigades.

Q. And by what names are they generally referred to, as you

understand it from your field of expertise?

A. The Brigades, the Battalions, Qassam Brigades, Qassam

Battalions.

Q. If you could speak up?

A. Qassam Brigades, Qassam Battalions.

Q. Does the name "Iz Al-Din Al-Qassam" appear in the Hamas

Covenant or charter we were discussing last week?

A. It does.

Q. And last week, we also discussed the emblem or the seal of

Hamas. Do the Al-Qassam Brigades or Battalions also have

their own emblem or seal by which they are known?

A. They do.

Q. Are you familiar with it?

A. I am.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, I'm handing you what's been marked Government

Exhibit Al-Qassam Emblem --

(Document tendered.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. -- and ask whether you are familiar with what is depicted

on that page?

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Levitt - direct

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A. I am.

Q. What is it, generally?

A. This is the emblem of the Qassam Brigades.

Q. And where have you seen it before?

A. On Hamas documents, on Hamas posters.

Q. When you say "Hamas documents," could you describe what

sorts of documents you're referring to?

A. Communiques from the Qassam Brigades, for example; Hamas

posters they've put out; Hamas Web sites.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, move to admit and publish

Government Exhibit Al-Qassam Brigades Emblem.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. MOFFITT: No, ma'am.

MR. DEUTSCH: No, no objection.

THE COURT: So admitted and you may publish.

(Government Exhibit Al-Qassam Brigades Emblem

received in evidence.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, in much of the same fashion that you offered

on the Hamas emblem, I'd like for you to discuss your

understanding of a number of the icons or images that appear

in the Al-Qassam Martyr Brigades emblem.

There is a dome structure of a sort in the center of

the seal. What do you understand that to be?

A. That's a depiction of the Dome of the Rock, the gold dome

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Levitt - direct

235

on the Mount of Jerusalem. It is the third holiest site in

Islam, the Noble Sanctuary.

Q. Is that the same structure that appears on the Hamas

emblem?

A. Yeah.

Q. All right.

There is person depicted in front of the Dome of the

Rock. Would you please explain what that is?

A. This is a depiction of a Hamas militant wearing a Hamas

bandana -- the traditional kafia head covering -- covering his

head and, in this case, concealing his face, as is common with

militant operatives.

The person's holding a gun in one hand and what

appears to be the Koran in the other.

Q. We ended on Friday with you discussing various of the

sources that you review and rely upon respecting the various

ways Hamas and its military wing claim responsibility or

credit for attacks that have occurred in the Middle East,

including suicide bombings.

Just very briefly, again, if you would review some of

the general materials that you and people in your field rely

upon in determining or -- in determining whether Hamas has

claimed credit for any particular event?

A. Hamas issues communiques taking responsibility or claiming

credit for attacks. Hamas leaders will appear on mass media

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Levitt - direct

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doing the same. The living wills of terrorists before they

carry out their attacks are frequently published and made

available to the media, sometimes put on the Internet after

the actual attacks, in which the perpetrator claims to be a

member of Hamas and states that they're about to perpetrate an

attack.

Many of these claims of responsibility are not only

provided to the mass media in terms of, you know, radio and

television, but also subsequently put on the Internet.

Q. And how does a person in your field go about finding these

various types of materials?

A. They're not difficult to find at all. Basic Internet

searches will reveal those that are available on the Internet.

Some in English, more in Arabic. Lexis/Nexis or other

database searches will yield many examples of articles or, you

know, television transcripts where Hamas leaders take credit

for these attacks.

Q. And in terms of their number or volume, how would you

describe the number of attacks that in some fashion you have

determined that Hamas has claimed credit for over the course

of its history?

A. Dozens.

Q. In preparation for your testimony here today, have you

prepared a chart that highlights some of those attacks?

A. Yes, just a few.

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Levitt - direct

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MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach, Judge?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, I'm handing you what's marked as Government

Exhibit Levitt Timeline.

(Document tendered.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. If you'd take a minute and review that document.

(Brief pause.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Is this the chart or summary you prepared?

A. This is it.

Q. And, just generally speaking, what field of information

have you recorded?

A. There's the date of the attack and there's a summary of

the event.

Q. And in -- is every Hamas -- every attack that you believe

that Hamas has taken credit for in some fashion, is that

denoted on this timeline?

A. No. This is a small sampling. There are many other

attacks for which Hamas has claimed responsibility that are

not on this timeline. But all the events --

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- on this timeline have, in fact, been claimed by Hamas.

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Levitt - direct

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MR. MOFFITT: I'm going to object with regard to this

because of your earlier ruling. This was a -- had to be

Dr. Levitt's belief. It's not to be taken as fact.

THE COURT: He is testifying in an opinion capacity.

So, overruled.

MR. FERGUSON: With respect -- just so the record is

clear, with respect -- to his belief that Hamas has taken

credit for or responsibility for certain attacks that are

depicted there.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And, Dr. Levitt, in general terms, what have you relied

upon in compiling this chart?

A. Again, Hamas claims of responsibility, communiques,

statements of Hamas leaders to the media. In some cases, I've

interviewed participants of attacks, the living wills, et

cetera.

Q. And these materials that you drew upon, are they the same

sorts of materials that you draw upon in your work generally

in research and analysis on Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is the time period reflected in the chart?

A. The chart runs from December, 1987, to August, 2004.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I would move to publish for

demonstrative purposes Government Exhibit Levitt Timeline.

THE COURT: Any objection for demonstrative purposes

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Levitt - direct

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only?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I have an objection. I don't

think it's reliable information.

THE COURT: Mr. Moffitt?

MR. MOFFITT: I'll just join -- I will join my

colleague.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. It may be used for

demonstrative purposes only.

MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Judge.

Could we --

THE COURT: Do you need it switched back?

MR. FERGUSON: Switched over to Elmo.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, I'd like to focus your attention to the first

entries in your chart, which I hope to have up here shortly in

copy form for the jury.

Your first entry is for December 9th, 1987. What's

that entry for?

A. As we discussed last week, that's when the Palestinian

Intifada or uprising began.

Q. And is that when Hamas itself was founded?

A. Hamas was founded then, too, yes, right -- December, 1987.

Q. And the second entry is August 18th, 1988. And what is

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Levitt - direct

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the event that's depicted there?

A. That's the publication of the Hamas charter that we went

through last week, and the date was on that publication.

Q. Dr. Levitt, the first two entries -- February 16th, 1989,

and May 3rd, 1989 -- could you please elaborate on what those

two entries are for?

A. These entries reflect abductions or kidnappings of Israeli

soldiers that were claimed by Hamas.

Q. And the first one, IDF Sgt. Sasportas abducted?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. At the time of the abduction, as you understand it from

source materials that you reviewed, was Sgt. Sasportas on duty

and actively engaged when the kidnapping occurred?

A. He was hitchhiking.

Q. Was he off duty or on duty?

A. Off duty.

Q. And what do you rely upon to -- for the belief that Hamas

claimed responsibility for this particular attack -- or this

particular incident?

A. Hamas has claimed responsibility for this attack in

several documents, including a document on means of Qassam

Brigades attacks, these and other kidnappings are listed.

Hamas at the time claimed responsibility. This has been

reflected in Hamas communiques, as well.

Q. Are you familiar with the term "glory record"?

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A. Yes.

Q. What is the glory record?

A. The glory record is a list and description of attacks

claimed by Hamas that appears on one of the Hamas Web sites

that lists a series of terrorist attacks which together Hamas

describes as part of its, well, glory record of -- of --

terrorist attacks.

Q. I turn your attention to the second, May 3rd, 1989.

What's that event?

A. Similarly, the abduction or kidnapping of an IDF Israeli

Defense Forces off-duty officer, also while he was

hitchhiking.

Q. And what's his name?

A. This was Ilan Sa'doan.

Q. And was Corporal Sa'doan -- was he recovered from his

abductors?

A. No. He was killed and his body was found almost six years

later.

Q. And what sorts of materials do you rely upon to come to

the conclusion that Hamas claimed responsibility for this

attack?

A. The same: Hamas communiques at the time; public

statements at the time; this Qassam document laying out

kidnapping attacks and types of Hamas kidnapping attacks,

which lists both of these and other kidnapping attacks.

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Q. Are these the first events, from your understanding, that

Hamas claimed some responsibility for?

A. In this form, yes.

Q. Would you explain what you mean by "in this form"?

A. Later on, Hamas officials would claim that even before

Hamas was created under the name "Hamas" in December, 1997,

meaning when the Hamas -- the leaders who formed Hamas -- were

operating as the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, later on

those officials -- people like Khalid Mishal -- would state

that even prior to this date, they had engaged in some

low-scale attacks. But these are the first attacks --

MR. DEUTSCH: Could we have a foundation --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- in Hamas' name.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- for this? Later on? When later on?

THE COURT: Can you clarify that with the witness?

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. A couple things. You're referring to statements of Khalid

Mishal.

A. Yeah.

Q. Who is Khalid Mishal?

A. Khalid Mishal is the head of the Political Bureau of

Hamas.

Q. And you seem to be referring to some specific statements

of Mr. Mishal; is that correct?

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A. Correct.

Q. What specific statements and time frame are you referring

to?

A. Khalid Mishal was interviewed in a series of interviews at

great length in Arab media. I believe it was in Al Hayat. It

was about two years ago. The interview is available in

English on the Internet.

Q. And what was the general subject of that interview?

A. The history of Hamas, the history of the Palestinian

Muslim Brotherhood, his participation in it.

Q. And it is in that context that he made the remarks that

you were referencing a couple minutes ago?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you said these two incidents were the first in this

form. Did they have any particular significance in terms of

Hamas within the public eye generally, the media and

elsewhere?

A. This marked a turning point for Hamas as a terrorist

organization carrying out violent attacks. Prior to this,

Hamas' primary concern was in political activity, social

welfare activity and educational activity that would Islamize

Palestinian society. At this point, Hamas began conducting

violent attacks, as well, and it was the same political and

social leaders who were involved in these military attacks.

Q. From your studies, were any leaders of Hamas in any way

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held responsible or held to account for these two particular

incidents?

A. One of the founders, the spiritual leader of Hamas, Sheikh

Yasin, was convicted in an Israeli court for his role in these

abductions and murders.

Q. Was he accused of directly participating in the kidnapping

and murder?

A. No. He's a paraplegic. He was accused of overseeing

them.

Q. And just as a brief aside, when Sheikh Yasin was jailed in

association with these two attacks, who stood in his place as

the leader of Hamas?

A. His primary deputy at the time was Abdel Aziz Al-Rantisi.

Q. And was that on the inside or the outside, as you referred

to it before?

A. Last week we talked about leadership inside in the West

Bank and Gaza --

MR. MOFFITT: Judge --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- and outside. Rantisi, like Yasin, was on the inside in

Gaza.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And was there --

MR. MOFFITT: I ask that the witness be instructed to

answer the question.

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245

THE COURT: That was a long answer.

Overruled.

Listen to the question, Dr. Levitt.

THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And was there someone who emerged in the wake of Sheikh

Yasin's arrest and conviction as the leader on the outside?

A. That would be Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. After the ascension of Marzook, were there any other

notable operations in which Israeli soldiers or personnel were

kidnapped or murdered?

A. Yes.

Q. And when?

A. As we look down the chart, Israeli soldier Alon Caravani

is kidnapped, Israeli soldier Nissam Toledano. Both kidnapped

and murdered. There are others as we go farther along.

Q. And with respect to Caravani, what's the date of that

incident?

A. That's 9-18 -- September 18th -- 1992.

Q. And was that a military engagement in which he was

kidnapped?

A. No. He was off duty at the time.

Q. And what was he doing when he was kidnapped?

A. Again, hitchhiking.

Q. Is that another incident that you attribute as having been

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claimed by Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. And what's your basis for doing so?

A. Hamas communiques, the glory record we discussed earlier,

et cetera.

Q. Was this a publicized event?

A. Well publicized.

Q. When you say "well publicized," please describe what would

make something well publicized, in your view.

A. Since these were the first major Hamas attacks, they got a

lot of publicity, as Hamas attacks tend to do in general. But

because these were something new at the time, they were very

well covered in the media.

Q. And the next incident that you mentioned is with respect

to Officer Nissam Toledano. Would you please tell us when

that was and what that incident was?

A. Toledano was abducted in December, 1992, on his way to

work one morning. Hamas leaders claimed responsibility for

this and demanded the release of then-jailed Hamas spiritual

leader and founder Sheikh Ahmed Yasin.

Q. And from your studies, is the utilization of kidnapped

soldiers to procure the release of some figure within Hamas a

common practice?

A. Very.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Leading.

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THE COURT: Sustained.

Rephrase it.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. What strategic purposes, from your studies, have you

gleaned for the abduction of soldiers that have been claimed

by Hamas?

A. The primary objective in almost every instance has been to

seek the release of jailed Hamas operatives. Other goals have

included undermining the self-rule Palestinian Authority;

undermining negotiations then under way, including undermining

negotiations for the release of Palestinian prisoners.

Hamas has claimed at the time that it was their

belief, for example, that the Palestinian Authority was going

to seek the release of its own members -- members of Fatah, in

particular; Fatah, the group associated with Yasir Arafat --

as opposed to seeking the release, also, of Hamas operatives.

Q. And are these two incidents, the abductions of Caravani

and Toledano, are they publicized in what you have referred to

as the glory record?

A. Yes.

Q. With respect to Toledano, were there any reprisals or

responses taken by Israel based on your review of public

materials?

A. Well, I wouldn't say it was just in response to Toledano.

I'd say that Toledano was the straw that broke the camel's

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back.

After this series of attacks, Israeli authorities

detained over 400 Palestinian militants and deported them to

southern Lebanon to a barren hilltop called Marj al-Zuhur.

Q. And what prominent members, past or present, were among

those that were removed to this hilltop in Lebanon?

A. Abdel Aziz Al-Rantisi, Mahmoud Al-Zahar, Mahmoud Abu

Hanoud. There were over 400 not only Hamas, but including

Hamas leaders.

Q. And from your understanding, was it primarily one

organization or another that was -- that comprised the group

of those expelled?

A. The majority were Hamas, but there were also members of

Islamic Jihad and others.

Q. Did one person among the detainees -- based on

public-source materials, did one person among those detainees

assume a leadership or spokesperson position for the group?

A. The spokesperson who emerged was Abdel Al-Aziz Al-Rantisi.

Q. And was the expulsion permanent?

A. No.

Q. Approximately how long were these individuals expelled to

this hilltop in southern Lebanon?

A. I think it was about a year. They came back in two waves

-- or two waves of returns.

Q. And from your studies, what impact did these deportations

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have on Hamas on the inside?

A. They were crushing. The Hamas leadership was suddenly

absent. Hamas operatives were suddenly absent. It was an

absolutely crushing blow to Hamas at the time.

Q. You used the word "crush" twice. What was it about it

that constituted a major blow to the organization?

A. Political leadership was absent. Social welfare activists

tied to the political and military wings, absent. Militants

capable of carrying out attacks, absent. The ability through

people involved in Hamas infrastructure to raise, move and

distribute funds for political/military/charitable activities,

absent.

At every level of the Hamas infrastructure, at all --

through all -- types of its activity, its key leadership, its

key operatives were suddenly no longer on the ground.

Q. In the context of the glory record that you've been

referring to, is this deportation action something that is

referenced?

A. I don't recall.

Q. The next event on your timeline here is something that is

titled "The Mekholah Bombing," and I'm sure I've mangled the

name.

What is that?

A. This is a suicide bombing. The driver pulled up his van

full of explosives in between two civilian buses at a

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restaurant parking lot. It wasn't as successful as Hamas

would later become, meaning only one person was killed and

five wounded. But this is believed to be Hamas' first

successful suicide bombing.

Q. You indicated the first successful suicide bombing. Did

you have an understanding as to whether there were prior

unsuccessful suicide bombing attempts?

A. There were prior bombing attempts, and it's not clear if

they were suicide or otherwise.

Q. There is reference on your chart to an event on November

19th of 1992. Is that a reference to a prior attempted

suicide bombing?

A. Yes.

Q. What forms your understanding that Hamas claimed

responsibility for the Mekholah bombing?

A. Again --

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, excuse me. Just so we're clear,

he's now going back to the other bombing, right?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge --

MR. DEUTSCH: I think he's just, you know, playing a

little fast and loose here. He started to talk about this

failed bombing, and then he asked him the basis for the

Mekholah bombing.

THE COURT: His questions are appropriate.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

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THE COURT: You are free to --

MR. DEUTSCH: I just want --

THE COURT: -- cross-examine on it.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- to be clear that we're going back to

a different incident now.

THE COURT: He is free to ask his questions however

he would like. The government bears the burden. They can put

in their case how they would like.

Yes?

MR. FERGUSON: For the record, I object to the

argumentive nature of these objections. That was a bit of a

speech with respect to what I was doing in the context of the

government's direct examination and I think it's

inappropriate.

THE COURT: That one was overruled.

Ask your next question.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Is the Mekholah bombing referenced in the Hamas glory

record?

A. It is.

Q. We've made a number of references to the glory record.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach, Judge?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Where, again, have you seen and do you understand the

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glory record to have been published?

A. It's on a Hamas Web site.

Q. Have you seen English language versions of it published in

various places?

A. I have.

Q. I'm handing you what's marked as Government Exhibit Glory

Record --

(Document tendered.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. -- and Translation.

Is this an example of a Web site publication of the

glory record that you're referring to?

A. Yes.

Q. It is in Arabic and -- is it not?

A. It is.

Q. All right.

You don't speak Arabic; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. All right.

So, what do you do, in this instance and generally,

to determine what that document is and to conduct your

analysis of that document?

A. I get a translation from an accredited Arabic language

translator and usually, as was the case in this case, also sit

down with that person to go over their translation in Arabic,

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so that I can have a semblance of comfort that the translation

is accurate.

Often, I will sit down with another Arabic language

linguist to then independently confirm usually not every word,

but that the gist of the translation is accurate. It's

important for me to be able to have that kind of comfort,

since I'm working off a document that I can't read myself.

In many cases, including this one, the glory record

is something that is used by many scholars. And, so, many

others have gone through the same exercise, as well. And that

gives me additional level of comfort.

Q. At the very bottom of the page that's projected, Page 1 of

your chart, there's a reference to "the Oslo Accord

formalized."

Would you please explain what that entry is for?

A. This is the White House ceremony at which the Oslo Accord

or the Declaration of Principles was signed between Israel and

the PLO -- the Palestine Liberation Organization -- marking

the official start of the Oslo peace process.

Q. And September 13th, 1993, what specifically happened on

that day?

A. I'm sorry? Say again, please.

Q. September 13th, 1993, was there some particular event or

ceremony that occurred that day?

A. Yes. That was the White House ceremony, the signing of

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the treaty, the famous handshake between Arafat and Rabin on

the White House lawn.

Q. All right.

Was this a publicized event?

A. Yes.

Q. What was Hamas' position with respect to the Oslo Accords?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Hamas leaders opposed this event.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. I'm going to jump ahead to 1994 on the top of the second

page of your chart. And there are two references there for

April of 1994. I direct your attention to the first one

first, the Afulah car bombing.

What was that event?

A. This was a suicide bombing at a bus stop in northern

Israel in the City of Afulah in which eight Israelis were

killed and five were injured.

Q. And the second?

A. This was a few days later, another bus bombing, also in

northern Israel, in Hadera, killing six and wounding 28.

Q. And what's your basis for attributing claims of

responsibility to Hamas for these two incidents?

A. These are recorded in the glory record. Hamas issued

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communiques and many statements for both of these describing

these as a seri- -- part of a series of attacks and claiming

more would come.

Q. The glory record, to your knowledge and from your studies,

has it ever been renounced or disclaimed by any public member

of Hamas?

MR. MOFFITT: I'm going to object. There's no

requirement that anybody renounce anything.

THE COURT: You can answer that "Yes" or "No."

And, then, you can lay a foundation.

The question was "to your knowledge."

BY THE WITNESS:

A. No.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Have you ever seen a public statement or a media report

reflecting that any leader of Hamas has renounced or

disclaimed the glory record?

A. No.

MR. MOFFITT: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. The next event on your chart, "May 4th, 1994, Gaza-Jericho

Agreement, Oslo 1."

What is that a reference to?

A. Under the Oslo Accords, there were several milestones,

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specifically for when certain authorities would be given to

the Palestinian self-rule government and when Israeli

authorities would begin to withdraw from certain areas. So,

this was the first major milestone when Israeli authorities

withdrew from most of the Gaza Strip -- there were still some

settlements -- and the Jericho area in the West Bank.

Q. From your studies, is there any significance to the close

proximity in the timing of the Afulah and Hadera bombings to

the Gaza-Jericho agreement?

A. Hamas traditionally conducts attacks in periods of

negotiations in an effort to undermine them. This would fit

that pattern.

Q. Is there any -- is there anything significant about the

April, 1994, time frame regarding these two particular bombing

attacks?

A. This is in the period during which the Gaza-Jericho

agreement was being finalized. Critical negotiations were

going on at the time leading up to the May 4th signing of this

interim agreement. Until this point, the Israelis had not

withdrawn from territory. This marked a watershed event that

Hamas sought to undermine.

Q. Was there any prior event that your research of public

sources, including media reports, would reflect to be a

precipitant of these two bombings?

A. There was an attack by a Jewish terrorist in Hebron in the

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West Bank at the Ibrahimi Mosque, which is also referred to by

the Jews as the Cave of Patriarchs, where some 40 worshippers

were shot in the back as they knelt in prayer in cold blood.

The event was -- the event -- the attack -- was

condemned by Palestinians, Israelis and really everybody else

alike. And Hamas claimed at the time that it would conduct a

series of attacks to avenge those 40-something murders.

Q. And in relation to when the Hebron attack or the Hebron

massacre occurred versus the April 6th, 1994, Afulah car

bombing, what was the proximity in time?

A. Weeks.

Q. Is there a typical mourning period in Muslim -- in the

Muslim religion, as you understand it?

MR. MOFFITT: I'm going to object. Again, he's not

an expert on the Islamic religion.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. As you understand it, is there anything significant with

respect to the timing of these two attacks in relation to what

you understand to be the mourning period in the Muslim

religion?

MR. MOFFITT: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. There was significant media coverage at the time

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reflecting that the attacks occurred after the traditional

mourning period within the Muslim religion, so that that time

had passed between the Hebron massacre by this Jewish

terrorist and, then, the terrorist attacks by Hamas.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And engaging in what it claimed responsibility for as

suicide attacks, did Hamas -- from the materials that you have

seen in your work -- put aside the tactic of kidnapping or

abducting soldiers?

A. It continued to abduct or kidnap soldiers. It's a tactic

that it has used sporadically.

Q. And when was the next time that such an abduction

occurred, at least as you have it recorded in your timeline?

A. That would be October, 1994.

Q. And what was that incident?

A. An Israeli soldier, who also happened to be an American

citizen, named Nahshon Wachsman was kidnapped in Israel. The

event transpired over several days during which he was

kidnapped. Hamas leaders publicly took credit for the

kidnapping; announced that they were holding him; demanded the

release of Hamas prisoners; and, threatened to kill him if

Sheikh Yasin and others were not released.

Israeli commandos working with their Palestinian

counterparts identified the hideout, raided it; and, in the

context of the raid, several Hamas operatives were killed,

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Wachsman was killed and one of the Israeli commandos was

killed.

Q. And were these all publicly-reported events?

A. Yes.

Q. And is this incident also in the glory record?

A. I believe it is.

Q. I turn your attention to specifically the translation that

you have in front of you to No. 94.

A. Yes.

Q. So, the Wachsman incident is reported in the glory record?

A. Yes.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I'm going to object. If he

doesn't want me to say it in front of the jury, I think I'll

need to say it to you outside the presence of the jury.

THE COURT: Can you give me any further hint about --

MR. DEUTSCH: I just think this -- there's no

authentication of this so-called glory record. He got it off

a Web site.

THE COURT: Okay.

It is a foundation as to the glory record.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Turn your attention to the first page of the glory record

and to the first page as translated.

What do you understand the header information to

reflect as to the source of this information?

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A. From a Web site called the Palestine Information Center.

In my translation, it's translated as Palestinian Information

Center. I think the actual Web site is Palestine, i-n-e at

the end.

This is widely known within the academic community

and regarded by Hamas to be a Hamas Web site.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Was there any consequence to the Wachsman kidnapping and

murder to the relations between the Israelis and Palestinian

Authority?

A. Israel and the Palestinian Authority had been engaged in

negotiations over several things, including an economic accord

and an agreement to release still further Palestinian

prisoners. Those negotiations were suspended because of this

attack.

Q. And, as reflected in your chart, was there another

significant event that occurred soon after the Wachsman

abduction?

A. Yes.

Almost immediately, several days later, there was

another suicide bombing aboard a bus in Tel Aviv.

Q. And how many people died in that attack?

A. 21 people were killed and 56 injured.

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Q. And was this event recorded in the Hamas glory record?

A. Yes, I believe it was.

Q. Do you want to check?

A. Sure.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I object to his use of this

glory record. I don't think they've established any

reliability as to what -- who published it, whether it's

accurate, whether it's linked to Hamas. He just says -- I'll

just leave it at that.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, that sounds like crossexamination.

THE COURT: He --

MR. FERGUSON: He's identified this particular

publication of the glory record as coming from the Palestine

Information Center, which is relied upon generally in his

field of expertise as a source of materials regarding Hamas.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

And the document itself is not coming in as evidence.

He is relying on it in giving his opinion. You are free to

cross-examine on that.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Let me ask you -- I keep going back to the glory record --

in all of these instances that we've been discussing, are the

events and claims of responsibility in some fashion publicized

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in any other media?

A. Certainly. All these attacks have been covered in the --

been covered in the media.

Q. And what sorts of media?

A. Western media, CNN; American media, NBC; radio,

television, print; Chicago Tribune.

Q. How about the Middle East?

A. Certainly.

Q. And in the context of the publicizing of those events, do

the media reference statements or claims by Hamas or Hamas

leadership?

A. They do. They'll often reference claims by Hamas

leadership and they'll reference claims that have been made on

the Internet, especially on known Hamas Web sites, statements

Hamas leaders make to the press, Hamas communiques, et cetera.

Q. And with respect to the events that we have been

specifically talking about, have any Hamas leadership

retracted their claim of responsibility respecting the event?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Not to my knowledge.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Not to my knowledge.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

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Q. The Web site of the Palestine Information Center, the one

that you've referenced as regarded in your field as tied to

Hamas, are there other Web sites that, in your field, experts

regard as a source of material coming directly from Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you name some of them?

A. Qassam, as in the Qassam Brigades, has its own Web site.

The Hamas student groups on campuses, Islamic Bloc -- in

Arabic, Kutla Islamiya -- have both an overall Web site and

many of the individual Islamic Bloc student groups on

individual campuses have their own Web sites.

Hamas is known to run a Web site geared at children

called Al-Fateh. There are several.

Q. And you've reviewed information from those sites in the

past?

A. Yes.

Q. And you've relied upon translators to assist you in that

process?

A. When they're not in English, yes.

Q. And are some of them in English?

A. Yes.

Q. Are they published solely in the Middle East?

A. Not the ones that are on the Internet for sure. You can

get them anyway -- anywhere.

Q. Are there English language versions of these Web sites?

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A. Yes. The glory record, for example, is published, I

believe, in Arabic. Others appear in English.

Q. And have you researched and, in the course of your work,

reviewed statements or published remarks that are on those

English language versions of those Web sites?

A. I have.

Q. And have any of them reflected a disclaiming of what is in

the glory record?

A. No.

Q. October 19th, 1994, we've been discussing the suicide

bombing aboard the Dizengoff Street bus. What sorts --

without reading from the glory record, what sorts -- of

information is stated in the glory record with respect to that

particular attack?

A. I'd have to look at the glory record to tell you anything

specific to this attack. In general, the entries will name

the perpetrator of the attack; will describe the attack; will

laud the attack, present it as a victory over the Israeli

enemy, penetration of the Israeli defenses; describe the

number of killed and wounded.

Q. The next event in your timeline, "August 21st, 1995,

Jerusalem bus bombing." Would you please tell the jury what

this refers to?

A. This was another suicide bombing targeting a Jerusalem

civilian bus in which four people were killed and nearly a

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hundred wounded. One of the people killed was an American

from Connecticut.

Q. We were talking about Sgt. Wachsman a little while ago.

From your review of public source materials, is there anything

to reflect whether he had any ties to the United States?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I object. First of all, it was

brought out. Second of all, it's irrelevant and prejudicial

and purposely done to prejudice us.

THE COURT: Do you want to respond?

MR. FERGUSON: I'd love to respond, but it will take

the form of fairly extensive argument. I think -- it is

prejudicial, Judge. I think it's appropriate in this context.

We have a case here about the support from the United States

of --

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, I --

MR. FERGUSON: -- activities --

THE COURT: Yes, wait, wait. Let us go to sidebar.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. DEUTSCH: Can I make myself a little more clear,

because I didn't want to in front of the jury?

It was my understanding that the Court told the

government to take those American flags off the --

THE COURT: I did.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- flow of the record. And it seemed

to me what underlying the Court's ruling was, is that we're

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not going to distinguish who the victims of these bombings

are, if they're -- if they happen to be an American citizen or

a Dutch citizen or an Israeli citizen. It's a suicide

bombing.

And they shouldn't be able to underline, as they did

and snuck in, all the people who are victims that are U.S.

citizens. I don't see that has any relevance here.

THE COURT: That was not the focus of my prior

ruling. My prior ruling was I thought the American flag icon

was prejudicial. I also made them take out the Hamas icon

flag that was next to -- or banner that was next to -- each of

the entries.

You are raising a separate objection now: Can they

even go into the underlying text -- or subject matter --

MR. DEUTSCH: The nationality.

THE COURT: -- that an American was killed.

MR. FERGUSON: First off, the objection as stated by

Mr. Deutsch before was with respect to the suggestiveness of

the icon of the American flag. It was not with respect to the

identity.

THE COURT: That is what my ruling was on.

MR. FERGUSON: Second of all, all of the versions of

this have included this information and there was no prior

objection.

Third, this is a case about support from the United

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States, a conspiracy to support from the United States an

enterprise that's engaged in terrorist acts abroad. And its

significance, given the arguments that have been stated in

opening to an American jury standing in judgment of the

meaning of all of this, I think, is highly relevant. It

matters.

It matters that there are illegal acts being taken

from the United States to serve an enterprise engaged in a

pattern of murderous activities and murder conspiracy, as

stated in the indictment, that result in the deaths of

Americans. Highly relevant.

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, the statute does not

require a death of an American. The statute itself doesn't

speak to the death of an American.

THE COURT: That is correct.

MR. MOFFITT: The sole purpose for putting this in is

to attempt to smear. There's no -- it's not relevant whether

it's an American or not. If the statute is to be accepted, if

the government -- there's no need to prove it was an American.

And the truth of the matter is even the government's own

evidence will show that Hamas has never attacked a place

outside the occupied territories.

So, what is the relevance of them being American to

the government's proof?

MR. FERGUSON: The argument that was made by the

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defense is this is purely freedom fighting that's occurring

over in Palestine. It's not, Judge. The intentional --

sorry, the collateral damage for intentionally reckless acts

of murder have resulted in the deaths of Americans. And given

the fact that the jury has been -- had suggested to them by

the defense that this is all something that's going on over

there, analogous to the American Revolution, it's not.

It's something that has an impact on America and

Americans, and is properly within the scope of this case. And

it is an understood and publicized outcome of the broader

activities of the enterprise that has been charged here with

engaging in these murderous attacks.

THE COURT: Last response, and then I am going to

rule.

MR. MOFFITT: The fact that it's publicized is

irrelevant.

THE COURT: I agree about that.

MR. MOFFITT: Absolutely doesn't have any -- I mean,

the idea that there might have been a collateral casualty -- I

mean, we talk about collateral casualties in virtually every

war and everything -- I'm suggesting to you that you don't --

they don't need to prove it to prove their case, and the only

point of it is to -- is prejudice here -- is an attempt to

prejudice the jury.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, first of all, the organization

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is reckless in how it goes about these attacks and certainly

does not act to avoid direct impact to Americans.

Second of all, it is engaged in attacks that are in

places where it could reasonably be expected that Americans

were going to die, one of them occurring at a bar that is

literally yards from the American Embassy.

THE COURT: Your objection is overruled.

I find that it is probative, and it does directly

respond to arguments that you made in opening statements. The

probative value is not substantially outweighed by any

prejudicial effect. And you are free to cross-examine and

cross-examine the expert on the fact that no bombings have

been targeted on United States ground.

Objection overruled.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

MR. MOFFITT: May I have a continuing line of

objection?

THE COURT: You may. The record will reflect that.

MR. FERGUSON: I'm not sure if the question was

answered before, Judge. Could I have it read back?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Record read.)

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I object. That was asked and

responded to that he was an Israeli Defense Force military

soldier and an American citizen.

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THE COURT: You may answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. He was an American citizen.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Jump ahead to a string of incidents that are dated in

February and March of 1996, starting "February 25th, 1996,

Jerusalem No. 18, Suicide Bus Bombing 1."

Would you please tell the jury what you are

referencing in that item?

A. This is another suicide bus bombing for which Hamas

claimed responsibility. It was the bombing of the No. 18 line

bus in Jerusalem near the central bus station, killing 26

people and injuring 80, including two Americans.

Q. And the second incident, March 3rd, 1996, approximately a

week later, what is that to?

A. That is another bombing of that same bus line, the 18 bus,

almost -- almost -- a week to the hour from the previous one,

killing 19 and injuring six.

Q. And a third one, the very next day, March 4th, 1996,

Dizengoff Square suicide bombing. What's that a reference to?

A. That's a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv in one of the largest

pedestrian squares downtown called Dizengoff. It was claimed

by Hamas and killed 12.

Q. Each of these were publicly reported events?

A. Yes.

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Q. Do they appear in the Hamas glory record?

A. I believe so.

Q. Would you --

A. Sure.

Q. -- like to check.

(Brief pause.)

BY THE WITNESS:

A. The two attacks on the No. 18 bus are in here, and it does

not appear that the Dizengoff attack is in here.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. These three bombings, I want to focus on having you

discuss a little bit as to their strategic significance.

Have you studied in particular the dynamics between

suicide -- between terrorist attacks and negotiations, and

specifically negotiations on the peace process?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you researched, analyzed and written about this

particular sequence?

A. In detail.

Q. And where -- have you published anything on that subject?

A. Yes. My Ph.D. dissertation includes three case studies.

One of them is this string of attacks.

Q. And from your work, research and analysis on this

particular string of attacks, did you -- have you come to any

conclusions about their strategic significance to peace

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negotiations?

A. Strategically, they are, in part, aimed and intended to

undermine those negotiations.

Q. And would you please explain in the context of what was

going on at that particular period in Israeli-Palestinian

relationships why you come to that conclusion?

A. Shortly before these attacks, a Jewish extremist had

assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Rabin. His deputy,

then-Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, became the Acting Prime

Minister and called for early elections in Israel.

He, Peres, was riding a significant wave of sympathy

and support, in large part, because of the Rabin

assassination. Peres, Rabin and Arafat had won the Nobel

Peace Prize for their efforts on -- in terms of the Oslo

Accords. And it was widely expected that Peres was going to

win the election with a significant mandate. And he had very

publicly announced that his primary intention would be to

finalize the Oslo Peace Accords and come to a permanent peace

settlement with the Palestinians.

Q. And, as you've written about it, what was the impact of

these three bombings on that particular set of facts and

circumstances?

A. The bombings, the fact there were so many bombings,

multiple bombings in the same locations completely undermined

Israelis' sense of security. Many Israelis believed that the

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Palestinian Authority had not done enough to crack down on

Hamas and, therefore, was not an appropriate partner for

peace.

Peres' opponent, Benjamin Netanyahu, portrayed Peres

as someone who was going to give all or part of Jerusalem to

the Palestinians in negotiations. Coming on the heels of

bombings in Jerusalem and, in general, Jerusalem being an

issue that is a core negotiating issue for both Palestinians

and Israelis, that was a significant shot at Peres.

The lead was quickly eliminated and, in fact, Peres

lost.

Q. And from that strategic vantage point, then, were these

incidents successful?

A. At multiple levels. Strategically, in terms of

undermining the peace process; undermining the Israeli

proponents for peace; equally undermining Palestinian

proponents for peace whose reputations are intimately

intertwined with the peace process.

Tactically, in terms of carrying out successful

attacks; murdering large numbers of individuals; undermining

Israeli civilians' sense of security.

Q. You touched on a number of incidents in which Americans

died. Based on your studies have you found any evidence that

Americans were specifically targeted in attacks claimed by

Hamas.

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A. There's evidence that Hamas has knowingly conducted

attacks in places where Americans are known to be present.

Attacks, for example, at --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Foundation.

THE COURT: Do you want to clarify the foundation?

Sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Let's break this down.

Have you encountered any -- focusing on this

particular time frame -- that being the mid-1990s and the

period up to March of 1996 -- from the public-source

materials, including statements of Hamas leaders and published

materials from sites associated with Hamas, have you seen any

statements or declarations attributed to Hamas that

specifically claims that the attacks or incidents were

directed to Americans?

A. Not in terms of this string of attacks. Hamas --

MR. MOFFITT: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. With respect to this specific string of attacks in which

some Americans died, was there anything that you read

attributable to Hamas or its leadership to indicate that it

was their intention specifically to kill Americans?

A. Not specifically to kill Americans.

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Q. From your research on the strategic operations of Hamas

and its military, is there anything about the locations where

some of these bus bombings occurred that would make it more or

less likely that Americans or interna- -- people from other

countries might be impacted physically directly by these

attacks?

A. This string of attacks, and many others we've discussed --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Is that "Yes" or "No," your

Honor?

THE COURT: Correct.

Answer that "Yes" or "No."

And, then, you can lay your foundation.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Yes.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And have you been focusing on this string of attacks?

Have you been to these locations personally?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you reviewed and observed these locations with

reference to specific attacks that have occurred that you

referenced in this chart?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you spoken, in the course of your studies, to

officials, to individuals from various walks of life directly

familiar with these locations on the subject of the tactical

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choice of these particular locations?

A. Yes.

Q. And from all of that, have you, from your work, come to

any conclusions about the likelihood that these public attacks

may or may not result in harm to people from countries other

than Israel?

A. These three attacks are all in central tourist locations.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. "Yes" or "No"?

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. What are your conclusions in that regard?

A. These three attacks are all in locations that are central

tourist locations where tourists from all over the world

congregate.

They're also targeting generally civilian areas with

a means of attack -- suicide bombing -- that is

indiscriminate. And, so, certainly, the attackers cannot

claim to have been targeting one civilian over another. When

you conduct an indiscriminate suicide bombing in a civilian

area, certainly one that is a tourist attraction, one should

expect that civilians of multiple nationalities are going to

be killed.

Q. Are you familiar with the name "David Boim" from your work

on the book "Hamas"?

A. I am.

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Q. And who do you understand David Boim to be?

A. David Boim was an American citizen living in Israel in the

West Bank who was shot in an attack claimed by Hamas and -- by

operatives driving by a group of teenagers. He was a

teenager. He was killed and one other person was injured.

Q. Was there anything with respect to the claims of

responsibility from Hamas that would reflect that they

intended specifically to kill an American?

A. No.

Q. Your next two entries -- July 30th, 1997, at the bottom of

Page 2; and, September 4th, 1997 -- two more suicide bombing

incidents.

First, reference to the first, July 30th, 1997.

What's being referenced in that event?

A. This was a double suicide bombing, meaning there were two

suicide bombers deployed, who detonated themselves and

explosives they were wearing inside the Mahane Yehuda Market,

an outdoor but enclosed -- partially; parts of it are

enclosed; the parts where the attack was are enclosed --

market in Jerusalem. 16 people were killed, including an

American. 178 were wounded, including two Americans.

Q. And the September 4th, 1997, incident?

A. This is a triple suicide bombing, also claimed by Hamas.

Q. When you say "triple" --

A. Means three suicide bombers who were deployed. And

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they'll be deployed not standing next to each other, but

within eyesight usually of each other but some distance, as a

means to further casualties.

Q. Okay.

And I interrupted you. More generally, what was this

incident?

A. Three suicide bombers deployed and detonated themselves --

five people were killed, 181 wounded -- along the Ben Yehuda

Pedestrian Mall. It's an area blocked off from cars. Cafes,

stores, a major tourist attraction in downtown Jerusalem. One

American citizen was killed, six were wounded.

Q. These two incidents, did they appear in the Hamas glory

record?

A. I don't recall.

(Brief pause.)

BY THE WITNESS:

A. They do.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And do you have any personal familiarity with either of

these two incidents?

A. I was in the West Bank for the first one, July 30th. I

believe we referenced this last week. This is the one that I

then observed after the fact that evening. Observed the

location, not the attack.

Q. And by -- and, in general, your understanding in your

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review of materials and your studies, was there anything

strategically being sought with respect to these two

incidents?

A. There were peace processes, peace negotiations going on at

that time. One of them, I forget which, immediately preceded

a major diplomatic visit by, I think it was, then-Secretary of

State Madeleine Albright.

Q. Your timeline next picks up in 2001. Does that reflect

that suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks stopped

during the intervening period?

A. No. We do reference one here in 1998. There were others.

Like I said, this is a selection.

Q. At some point, your chart picks up, again, with other

suicide bombing incidents. Is that a reflection of any

particular events that were occurring in Israeli-Palestinian

relationships?

A. Two. First, in the late 1990s, Israelis and the

Palestinian Authority went on a significant push to try and

secure a peace deal. And that included a significant

crackdown by both Israeli and Palestinian authorities which

thwarted a significant number of attacks. So, there was

actually a period where there were fewer successful, though

not necessarily fewer attempted, attacks.

But, in September, 2000, after that surge in peace

negotiations failed, the violence flared, again.

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Q. And was that flaring of violence in connection with any

particular event?

A. The eruption of the second intifada or the second uprising

in September, 2000, and the collapse of the peace process,

which had culminated in a very high-profile effort to secure a

final peace deal here in the United States at Camp David with

significant presidential -- U.S. presidential -- involvement.

When that failed and the intifada -- or second intifada --

erupted, this second intifada was far more violent than the

first and suicide bombings, in particular, started at a quick

pace.

Q. And, in general, the second intifada, what impact, based

on your studies, did it have on the standing of the leader of

the Palestinian Authority at the time?

A. It undermined his authority -- Yasir Arafat at the time --

significantly, as well as the authority of Israeli leaders

whose reputations had been pegged to the success of this peace

process.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I'm wondering if we could take

a short break right now.

THE COURT: Sure.

We will pick up at about 1:30.

(Jury out.)

THE COURT: Do you need the Court, Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: No, Judge.

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THE COURT: Okay.

I will see you at 1:30.

(Brief recess.)

(Jury enters courtroom.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Ladies and gentlemen, I apologize for the warm

temperature. I've got the thermostat as low as it will go and

I've requested somebody to come up and see what they can do.

So I'm hoping next thing will happen is you'll be

freezing in here, but I'm hoping to get it adjusted.

Mr. Ferguson, you may continue.

MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Judge.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Just before we broke, Dr. Levitt, we were having some

discussion about the indiscriminate nature of some of these

attacks.

I'm going to turn your attention to entry on

October 29, 1998 that is reflected in your timeline and ask

you to please describe for the jury what event is being

referenced there?

A. This was a suicide bombing in the Gaza Strip at a Jewish

settlement targeting a school bus carrying children. The bus

had an Israeli military escort vehicle which was able to

position itself between the bomber's car and the bus before it

could reach the bus.

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So the children in the bus were saved, but the

drivers in the military vehicle, the soldiers, were killed.

Q. And this was before the second Intifada, is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And approximately when was it the second Intifada emerged?

A. September 2000.

Q. All right. Moving forward to 2001, which is when your

next entry is, March 4, 2001, what is that incident reflected

there?

A. A bombing at a bus stop, a suicide bomber detonated his

explosive at a central bus station in the northern Israeli

city of Netanya. There were multiple statements issued by

Hamas leaders taking credit for this attack, including Abdel

Al-Aziz Al-Rantisi and Mahmoud Al-Zahar.

Q. And, again, continuing on, with respect to all of these

attacks, they were all highly publicized events?

A. Yes.

Q. And as reported in the general media, each of them having

some form of statement or declaration from Hamas claiming

responsibility?

A. Yes.

Q. June 1, 2001, Dolphinarium bombing. What's that a

reference to?

A. Dolphinarium is a night club along the beach in Tel Aviv,

Israel. This was a suicide bombing. The bomber moved himself

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into the middle of a crowd of teenagers on a Saturday night,

killing 20 and injuring over 120.

Q. August 9, 2001.

A. Suicide bombing at a pizzeria at one of the busiest

corners in downtown Jerusalem, killing 15 and wounding more

than 90, including several children.

Q. And three or four weeks after that, September 4th, 2001?

A. Another suicide bombing in downtown Jerusalem, 13 people

were injured. It was in the middle of the morning rush hour.

Q. Five days later, September 9th of 2001, what's referenced

there?

A. Bombing at a train station in far northern Israel, not far

from the border of Lebanon, Nahariya. Three people are killed

and approximately 90 injured when a bomber detonated his

explosive at a train station.

Q. From your study and research, I'm going to ask you

questions, these attacks that you've been going through, Tel

Aviv, Netanya, Jerusalem, these are in different locations

within the country.

From your studies, what is the strategic

significance, if any, for the fact of these attacks occurring

in different places in Israel?

A. The purpose is to undermine public --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Some of these attacks are

in the occupied territories.

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BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And the occupied territories.

A. The purpose of attacks is to undermine Israeli sense of

public security. Most of these are in Israel proper. Some of

these are targeting Jewish settlements. There's that one in

1998.

By attacking all over the country, it sends a message

that Israelis aren't safe anywhere in the country.

Q. December of 2001, there are two entries on back-to-back

days, December 1st and December 2nd. What do those entries

reference?

A. Another suicide bombing at the Jerusalem Pedestrian Mall.

11 dead, over 100 injured. This was also a double suicide

bombing, meaning two suicide bombers were deployed in this

case 20 minutes apart at different locations along the mall.

The one the next day was in Haifa in northern Israel.

15 Israelis were killed and 60 wounded when a suicide bomber

detonated his explosive on a bus in a jointly Arab-Jewish

neighborhood. Haifa in particular is known for the

Jewish-Arab co-existence there.

Q. For many of these incidents, you've indicated that one of

the sources of information that you relied upon in your field

would include that Hamas claimed responsibility or

declarations or statements issued by the organization in some

form, is that right?

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A. Correct.

Q. Have you personally seen examples of such declarations or

statements?

A. Yes.

Q. And what form generally do they usually take?

A. The declarations are usually Arabic language, one- or

two-page statements with either the Hamas or the Qassam

Brigade emblem on them.

Sometimes they'll be distributed to mass media.

Often they will subsequently appear on the Internet, sometimes

immediately on the Internet.

Q. And are they, aside from the Internet, are they published

or collected in any other types of locations?

A. They're published in magazines by Hamas. They appear on

the streets distributed at mosques.

Q. Are they gathered or archived in any sorts of institutions

of higher education?

A. Yes.

Q. For example?

A. The Center For Special Studies in Israel tries to collect

these as an archive. There are others.

Q. And do you rely upon all of these sources for purposes of

gathering such declarations for purposes of your analysis?

A. I do, and then I also collect other sources of information

so that I'm never relying just on any one source.

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All of these, for example, will be prominently

featured in the media.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach, Judge?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, handing you what's marked Government Exhibit

Declaration 1 -- here's a stamped copy -- have you seen this

document before?

A. I have.

Q. And, in general terms -- and I should say it's Government

Declaration 1 and Translation.

It is in Arabic, is it not, sir?

A. It is.

Q. Is there anything from its Arabic form that informs for

you exactly what it is?

A. Not that the Arabic language. The Hamas symbol is there.

The name Hamas, and the full name of Hamas, the Islamic

Resistance Movement, are there in English.

Q. And what do you do in your work to identify exactly what a

document of this nature is and to understand its contents and

analyze it?

A. I have it translated by a professional translator.

Q. And let me ask you, do you simply accept translations as

they appear to you?

A. No.

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Q. What do you do?

A. As I said earlier, often I will then sit with another

linguist. When I can, another professional translator, but

often someone who speaks Arabic and sit with them to confirm

that the translation of the certified translator is, in fact,

accurate.

Q. And is that what you did with respect to this document?

A. Yes.

Q. And is there some specific incident or event that this

document is referring to?

A. This refers to the -- excuse me -- September 4th attack

that we have on here on page 3, the suicide bombing in

downtown Jerusalem.

Q. And is this the sort of statement or declaration that you

rely upon in the field of your expertise, specifically Hamas

and its activities and specifically the activities of its

military wing?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to publish as

demonstrative, Judge?

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I don't have an objection, but I

do -- are you going to do --

(Counsel conferring.)

MR. FERGUSON: Only publishing the first page.

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MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling regarding the

English translation.

MR. DEUTSCH: Right. Thank you.

THE COURT: Go ahead, you may publish.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Directing your attention to the top of Declaration 1,

there is a seal there. What is that?

A. That's the Hamas emblem.

Q. And the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas Palestine is

specifically stated in English, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that uncommon?

A. No.

Q. And in this instance, does this document reflect Hamas is

specifically taking some form of responsibility for the event

that occurred on September 4th, 2001?

A. Yes.

Q. And that specifically is a suicide bombing in downtown

Jerusalem that appears on your chart?

A. Yes.

Q. You've spoken of a December 1st, 2001 suicide bombing

attack in a Jerusalem pedestrian mall a minute ago. Do you

recall that?

A. Yes.

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MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Handing you what's marked Government Exhibit Declaration 2

and Translation. What's the nature of that document that you

hold?

A. Again, this is another -- I'm sorry? Oh, I thought you

said something.

This is another Hamas communique.

MR. FERGUSON: If I start talking to myself, let me

know, but I didn't say anything.

THE COURT: I'll let you know, Mr. Ferguson.

MR. FERGUSON: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Maybe I'm just hearing things.

This is another Hamas communique, this one claiming

responsibility for the December 1st attack in Jerusalem.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And what is it about that document that indicates it's a

Hamas communique?

A. Again, the face of the document is the same, the Hamas

emblem, and then the name in English and then the translated

text.

Q. And is this consistent with the sorts of declarations that

you relied upon in forming your expertise with respect to

Hamas and its military operations?

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A. It is.

Q. And did you go through the same process of having a

translation and speaking with the translator about the

contents of the document specifically to form your

understanding?

A. I did.

Q. And is it part of what you relied upon to attribute to

Hamas as having claimed responsibility for this specific

attack?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to publish as a

demonstrative, Judge?

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. DEUTSCH: No objection.

THE COURT: You may publish as a demonstrative.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And, again, the emblem that appears at the center of the

first page of this document?

A. The same emblem of Hamas and the name in English to the

left of it.

Q. And, generally speaking, including in this document, what

categories of information are specifically offered in this

document and documents like it on behalf of Hamas?

A. A description of the attack; the names of the

perpetrators; often one or more, for lack of a better word,

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justifications or reasons, often they are tied to revenge for

some past action; usually a call for further attacks and, in

general, glorifying the existent attack.

Q. From your understanding of your research, the media

reports of declarations issued by Hamas for the Qassam

Brigades, is this the sort of document that the media refers

to in making those statements?

A. Sometimes, yes, they'll refer to these documents and/or to

other public statements.

Q. Moving forward on your chart to March 9th, 2002, entry for

the Moment Cafe bombing. What is that a reference to?

A. This was a suicide bombing inside a Jerusalem cafe in

which 11 people were killed and over 50 wounded.

Q. And was this a broadly publicized event?

A. Yes.

Q. Based on your research of public sources, materials, did

Hamas take responsibility for this particular event?

A. Yes.

Q. Turning your attention to page 4 of your chart, there are

two more events listed here for March of 2002. The entries

are for the Park Hotel bombing and the Matza Restaurant

bombing, and if you would, sir, let's take the first one --

the last one first, the Matza attack. What's that a reference

to?

A. The Matza attack was a suicide bombing at a restaurant in,

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again, the northern city of Haifa. 15 people were killed and

over 35 wounded, a Sunday morning attack.

Q. And the first one, March 27th, 2001, Park Hotel. What's

that a reference to?

A. This was a suicide bombing attack inside the Park Hotel in

Netanya in northern Israel, targeting a group of elderly

people celebrating the Passover holiday. 29 people were

killed and over 150 wounded.

Q. That is an attack that you have devoted some more

particular study and research to, is it not?

A. It is.

Q. And have you written about it?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Handing you what's marked Government Exhibit Declaration

3. What's the nature of the document you have in front of

you?

A. This is a Hamas communique.

Q. And on the face of it -- it, too, is in Arabic, is that

right?

A. It is.

Q. And on the face of it, what indicates it to be a Hamas

communique?

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A. The Hamas emblem, the name of Hamas in English in the top

left like the others.

Q. And did you follow the same procedures that you described

before as utilizing a translator, were you able to question

about specific aspects of this document?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it of the nature that you rely upon in forming your

expertise in coming to the conclusion that Hamas took

responsibility for certain attacks?

A. Yes.

Q. And what attacks did Hamas take responsibility for with

this specific document -- with this specific document?

A. This is the Matza Restaurant bombing.

Q. And is there any other attack that's referenced in there?

A. As I recall, the Park Hotel is referenced in here, too,

but I don't have the full English translation in here.

Q. You should have the declaration with translation.

A. Thank you.

Q. And you have a copy of the translation.

Does that allow you to determine whether the Park

Hotel was specifically referenced and responsibility was

claimed --

A. Yes.

Q. -- by Hamas?

A. Yes.

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Q. All right. Besides the declaration here and media reports

regarding these two events, what other information have you

become aware of and have explored with respect to the Park

Hotel bombing that specifically brings you to your conclusion

that Hamas has claimed responsibility for it?

A. I interviewed the mastermind of the attack. I interviewed

the individual who drove the suicide bomber to the Park Hotel,

both of whom said they were Hamas members and that they were

involved in this attack and that the attack was carried out by

Hamas.

I've seen obviously significant press reporting on

it. I've also seen some of the indictment and other material

regarding this attack.

Q. And the individuals that you interviewed, did they

identify themselves as members of Hamas to you?

A. They did.

Q. In association with the bombing?

A. Yes.

Q. Turn your attention next to entry for July 31st, 2002 that

is in your chart. Hebrew University bombing. What's that a

reference to?

A. This was a suicide bombing inside a cafeteria at Hebrew

University. Nine people were killed and 70 wounded, including

the death of five Americans.

Q. And was this a broadly publicized event?

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A. It was.

Q. And did Hamas, from your review of public source

materials, claim responsibility for this attack?

A. They did.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach, Judge?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Handing you what's marked Government Exhibit Declaration 4

and Translation.

A. Thank you.

Q. Ask you whether you've seen those documents before?

A. I have.

Q. And what are they?

A. These are Hamas communiques.

Q. And what identifies them as such to you?

A. Again, the Hamas logo in the center, the names in English

on the left, and the translation that I had done.

Q. And is -- did you put this document through the same

analysis and vetting process with a translator that you've

discussed with respect to some of the others we have mentioned

in court here?

A. Yes.

Q. And what specifically is being referenced in this

document?

A. Among other things, the Hebrew University bombing on July

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31st.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to publish as a

demonstrative?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And, again, the upper portion of the first page of the

document, that's the Hamas emblem?

A. Yes.

Q. And is this part of what you relied upon to come to the

conclusion that Hamas, in fact, claimed responsibility for the

Hebrew University bombing?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there any other attack that is referenced in this

document?

A. There is.

Q. Are you familiar with the attack that's referenced in the

document?

A. Vaguely. It's not one that I selected for our chart.

Q. All right. Again, your chart is not intended to be

inclusive as to every Hamas-claimed attack or event, is that

right?

A. Correct.

Q. Turning your attention back to the chart, there's an

incident, jumping ahead a couple, April 30th, 2003, about

two-thirds of the way down the page, Mike's Place bombing.

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What is that a reference to?

A. This was a suicide bombing inside Mike's Place, which is a

bar right next to the American Embassy in Tel Aviv. It is

frequented by U.S. and other foreign embassy personnel. Three

people were killed, some 55 wounded, including an American.

Q. Have you seen Mike's Place?

A. Yes.

Q. Approximately how far is it from the American Embassy?

A. Literally next door.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Showing you what's marked Government Exhibit Declaration 5

and Translation.

A. Thank you.

Q. I'll ask you whether you've seen that document before?

A. I have.

Q. And is this also a Hamas declaration?

A. It is.

Q. And what from the face of it identifies it as a Hamas

declaration?

A. The Hamas emblem and Hamas name in English on the top

left.

Q. And did you go through the same vetting process that you

described with respect to a number of the other declarations

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that we've discussed here today?

A. Yes.

Q. And from that, what do you understand this document

specifically to be a reference to?

A. This is a claim of responsibility for this attack.

Q. Which attack?

A. The Mike's Place bombing.

Q. I skipped a couple of events in your chart. We are

getting to the end.

November 21st, 2002, Jerusalem bus bombing. What is

that a reference to?

A. Another rush hour suicide bombing in Jerusalem, ten people

killed and 50 injured.

Q. And from the same public sources that you've generally

referenced here, did Hamas take responsibility for that

attack?

A. Yes.

Q. And there is an entry for March 5th, 2003. What is that a

reference to?

A. This is another bus bombing again in the northern city of

Haifa. 15 people are killed and 40 are wounded on an

intercity bus that was departing Haifa to go to Tel Aviv. One

of the dead was an American teenager.

Q. And from your review of public source materials, has Hamas

taken responsibility for that attack?

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A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, I'm handing you three separate exhibits,

Government Exhibit Declaration 6A and Translation, 6B and

Translation, and 6C and translation.

A. Thank you.

Q. Take a moment to look at those, sir. And I'll ask you

whether you've seen those documents before.

A. I have.

Q. And in general terms, what are they?

A. These are three copies of the same Hamas communique

claiming responsibility for this attack as they appeared on

three different Hamas-related web sites.

Q. And is your understanding formulated on the basis of the

same process that you've described with respect to other

declarations that we have discussed here this afternoon?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to publish as

demonstratives?

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. DEUTSCH: No.

THE COURT: You may publish as demonstratives.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

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Q. You've indicated, Dr. Levitt, that these are three

different versions of the same declaration. What identifies

them to you as such?

A. First of all -- excuse me. First of all, the declarations

themselves are identical.

Q. Now, when you say the declarations themselves, you're

referring to the content or the wording?

A. The content. Excuse me. I'm sorry. Yes.

Q. Okay. Continue.

A. The content is identical. In all three they claim

responsibility for this attack.

The web sites on which they appear are web sites that

are known in the academic community to be associated with

Hamas. One is the Palestine Information Center that we

discussed earlier.

Q. And you indicated the contents is identical. I put the

heading -- the header of all three of them up there on the

screen in front of you.

The top one has a seal or emblem in the middle.

What's that emblem?

A. The top one is the same emblem of Hamas and the name of

the group in English in the top left.

Q. And does your inquiry into this document, with the

assistance of a translator, reflect this to be a statement

issued by Hamas itself?

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A. Yes.

Q. The second document has an emblem or a seal in the header

as well. Is that the Hamas emblem?

A. The second document is a Hamas emblem. It is the emblem

of the Qassam Brigades that we looked at earlier today.

Q. And in that respect, do you understand this to be a

document, a version of the declaration issued by the Hamas

organization itself?

A. Yes.

Q. But a particular branch of it?

A. This version appears on the web site for the Qassam

Brigades, Iz Edeen web site.

Q. And then the bottom one. This does not have an emblem on

it, but from working with a translator, what do you understand

the header to reflect?

A. This is the one from Palestine Information Center.

Q. So three different publications and sources for a single

declaration, is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. June 11, 2003, Jerusalem bus bombing. What's that a

reference to?

A. Another suicide bombing on a Jerusalem bus, killing 15 and

injuring 50.

Q. August 19th, 2003. Jerusalem bus bombing. What's that a

reference to?

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A. Another suicide bombing on a Jerusalem bus killing 21

people and wounding 102. Five of the dead were Americans.

Q. And in both instances, did all the reporting of these

particular events include claims by Hamas of responsibility or

credit?

A. Yes.

Q. The last event, Dr. Levitt, Cafe Hillel bombing,

September 9th, 2003. What's that a reference to?

A. Suicide bombing at a Jerusalem cafe. Seven people are

killed and 30 wounded.

Q. And did Hamas take responsibility, based on public source

materials, for that particular incident?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Handing you what's marked Government Exhibit Declaration 7

and Translation.

A. Thank you.

Q. Are you familiar with that document?

A. I am.

Q. What's the source of that document?

A. This is on the Hamas Iz Edeen Al-Qassam, terrorist wing of

Hamas web site.

Q. Dr. Levitt, have you ever heard of Wikipedia?

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A. I have.

Q. What's Wikipedia?

A. It's a search function on the Internet.

Q. And is that regarded as a highly reliable source of

information on the Internet?

A. Yes.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. The declaration that you have in front of you, did you put

it through the same vetting process with a translator as the

others that we've been discussing here?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to publish as a

demonstrative?

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. DEUTSCH: No objection.

THE COURT: You may publish as a demonstrative.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And Dr. Levitt, under whose emblem or seal or letterhead

does this particular declaration issue?

A. The Qassam Brigades.

Q. The military wing of Hamas?

A. Correct.

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Q. And what is the substance of what is being referenced in

this document?

A. Two attacks, one of them being the attack carried out in

Jerusalem on the 9th.

Q. Dr. Levitt, with respect to these declarations and others

like them that you've seen, when in proximity to the event do

they tip -- do these declarations typically issue or be issued

to the public?

A. Most often, immediately, especially in the age of the

Internet, but sometimes later.

Q. And do the claims of responsibility or credit end with

those nearly contemporaneous declarations?

A. No.

Q. What other sorts of materials are utilized by Hamas and

its various components that reflect their claim or continuing

claim of credit or responsibility for terrorist actions

generally and specific incidents?

A. Often Hamas documents including communiques will reference

back to prior attacks, sometimes in the context of claiming

responsibility for more recent attacks.

Hamas publications, magazines, for example, will

publish claims of responsibility, will publish the text of

martyrs' wills. The videotapes, living wills or martyrs'

wills are also published sometimes on the Internet, sometimes

to the media. There are a variety of means, including other

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public statements by Hamas leaders.

Q. You've testified earlier that these separate wings of

Hamas are interrelated in some facets of their operation and

structure. Is that fair?

A. Yes.

Q. Are there materials that are issued and that are seen in

the public domain from your travels in the West Bank and

otherwise that reflect that interconnectivity?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you give some examples?

A. Hamas materials, especially visual materials, posters in

particular, will depict the group's political leadership

alongside its military leadership or superimpose --

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection, foundation as to dates when

he observed these.

THE COURT: Sustained. You can clarify with him.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Have you traveled in the territories, Dr. Levitt?

A. I have.

Q. And when have you been in the territories?

A. Many times. I think the last one was late 2004.

Q. And do you remember approximately the first time?

A. July 1997.

Q. And in traveling in the territories, have you had

opportunity to observe some of these posters or photographic

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depictions that draw the associations --

MR. MOFFITT: I object. Posters are the least

reliable thing that we talked about. You can put a poster

together, two people on a poster and they don't even have to

be in the same place.

THE COURT: The question just called for a yes or a

no.

Objection overruled. You can answer that question

yes or no, and then see what he's going to do with it. You

can object again.

Do you need it read back?

THE WITNESS: No, thank you.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Yes.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And what sorts of places have you seen these posters or

photographic depictions associated with Hamas?

A. Seen them in a variety of locations, health clinics,

schools. I haven't spent significant time touring those types

of locations.

These types of posters are widely available and are

now collected by a variety of academic institutions, also

widely available on the Internet, so you don't need to go to

the territories to see them.

Q. From your research on the Internet and other locations,

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are there places where one can go and buy these posters?

A. Yes.

Q. And as an individual like yourself who drives through the

streets of Ramallah or other places in the West Bank, are

these posters that draw association with Hamas and its various

activities, are they seen on the street?

A. Yes.

Q. In what sorts of places?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I object. This -- this is

just -- I don't see where he's going with this. It's

irrelevant, what posters are put up by people in the streets

of Ramallah.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, they asked for foundation. I'm

detailing all of the --

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

You may answer.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. You spoke earlier, Dr. Levitt, about the proselytizing

function of the Dawa. From your studies, including studies of

poster and photographic and video depictions of Hamas and its

various activities, have you come to form an opinion as to the

role that they play in the proselytizing and I think you also

said radicalizing or Islamicizing element of Hamas's

operation?

A. Yes.

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Q. And what opinions have you formed in that regard?

A. These posters and other material placed in mosques, in

kindergartens, in clinic waiting rooms surround Palestinians

with images of terrorists, sometimes suicide bombers,

frequently on the same poster or superimposed against a

picture of an attack appearing with political leadership of

Hamas.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, handing you what's marked Government Exhibit

Photo 1. If you'll wait a minute while I do my tour of the

room.

Without specifying the content of Government Exhibit

Photo 1, is this demonstrative or emblematic of the type of

photographic materials that you see, you personally have seen

in schools, in hospitals, in public locations on the street in

the West Bank that relate to Hamas?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to publish as demonstrative

Government Exhibit Photo 1.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. DEUTSCH: I object. I don't see -- I don't see

what it's relevant to. It's certainly not relevant to the

case against Mr. Salah.

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MR. FERGUSON: It's relevant as a demonstrative for

exactly how Hamas conducts its proselytizing and radicalizing

through the dissemination and publications of materials such

as this.

THE COURT: You may use it as a demonstrative only.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, Government Exhibit Photo 1, are you familiar

with the individual who is depicted on the right side of this

exhibit?

A. It's Abdel Aziz Al-Rantisi.

Q. And to the left on this exhibit, there is depicted another

individual. Do you have an understanding as to what that is

representative of?

A. It's an individual representing a Hamas suicide bomber.

The person is wearing a Hamas head band and real or fake

suicide belt, bombing belt.

Q. And there is a structure at the bottom of the photo. Are

you familiar, can you identify what that structure is?

A. This is the Al Aqsa mosque, which is the second dome, the

silver dome, the actual mosque on the noble sanctuary or the

Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, can we have a date on which this

poster was made or when Mr. Levitt saw this poster?

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, it's being offered as a

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demonstrative exhibit. The foundation for time, place, manner

is -- if we do that, I think it then becomes fully admissible

as a substantive exhibit demonstrative of what Dr. Levitt is

testifying to.

I'm not sure that that's what the defense would like,

but I don't believe such a foundation is necessary for

purposes of a demonstration as to the type of materials that

Hamas issues for the purpose of proselytizing.

THE COURT: And he testified that he saw these

materials back in 1997, so --

MR. FERGUSON: These types of materials.

THE COURT: These types of materials, correct.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. So what do you construe this photo to mean in the context

of proselytizing and Islamicizing with respect to Hamas?

A. The most important message here is the juxtaposition of

what is clearly Hamas military activity with what Hamas

describes as Hamas political activity.

Abdel Aziz Al-Rantisi was at one time one of Hamas's

chief spokesmen, a public figure described as a political

leader, at one time briefly he actually was the political

leader of Hamas.

Juxtaposing him next to a suicide bomber is a visual

depiction of the fact that these are two sides of the same

coin.

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MR. DEUTSCH: Objection. Who -- who made this? Who

produced this? I don't understand how we can --

THE COURT: It's not admitted into evidence,

Mr. Deutsch.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. Thank you, Judge.

THE COURT: It's for demonstrative purposes.

Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. From your study, Dr. Levitt, have you seen either pictures

or news videos of Hamas leadership appearing before media

cameras and microphones offering statements?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Handing you what's marked as Government Exhibit Photo 2.

In your experience, Dr. Levitt, as part of Hamas's

publicizing efforts, does it appear -- do its figures appear

in front of symbolically significant backdrops?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recognize, without describing the details of what

is in Photo 2, do you recognize the figure depicted there?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it a Hamas leader?

A. Yes.

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Q. And what is the leader depicted as doing in this photo?

A. He's giving a press conference.

Q. And is it emblematic of the type of --

MR. DEUTSCH: Can we have a date?

THE COURT: He's not done and he has not moved for

any admission or publication of it yet.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And is it representative of the types of news photo and

video and video stills of Hamas leaders giving public

interviews that you have seen and relied upon in forming your

expertise?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Move to publish Photo 2 as a

demonstrative.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I object. I don't think it

even -- it has no relevance. I don't see what publishing it

does in terms of assisting the jury in deciding the real facts

of this case, and I object.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge -- let me ask a couple more

questions, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. With respect to Government Exhibit Photo 1, you've

indicated that to be representative of some of the visual

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media that is the manner in which Hamas proselytizes or

Islamicizes, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In your travels in the West Bank, have you seen murals or

other postings that perform the same function with respect to

Hamas's efforts at proselytizing and radicalizing?

A. I've certainly seen video and pictures of murals. I can't

recall if I've seen them myself.

Q. Is the mural that is depicted behind the Hamas leader in

Government Exhibit Photo 2 representative of the sorts of

painted imagery that you have seen reflective of Hamas's

proselytizing activities?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Move to publish Photo 2 as a

demonstrative, Judge.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained to the objection. Get a time

frame from him, since his answer on Photo 2 is different than

Photo 1.

MR. FERGUSON: Sure.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Sheikh Yassin I think you indicated earlier was jailed and

convicted in association -- for his activities in association

with the abducting and murder of --

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection --

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BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. -- IDF soldiers Avi --

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection, Judge. Objection. I object

to that. He's putting that evidence in, and that's not what

you asked for. You asked for a time frame.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I need --

MR. DEUTSCH: He's just putting that evidence in just

to prejudice us.

THE COURT: I think he's referring back to this

witness's testimony. I did ask for a time frame.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Approximately when was it that Sheikh Yassin was jailed

and convicted for those activities?

A. Late 1980s.

Q. And approximately how long was Sheikh Yassin in jail for

those activities?

A. I think it was three years.

Q. And was Sheikh Yassin jailed at any other point in time

during the history of Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. Off the top of your head, can you recall specific

additional periods in which he may have been jailed?

A. He was released again in 1995. I don't remember when he

was incarcerated.

Q. And was he released -- was he released again in 1997?

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A. Excuse me, it was 1997, yes.

Q. Okay. And you indicated from your testimony numerous

events where Hamas sought the release of Sheikh Yassin, is

that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And that occurred through much of the 1990s, is that

correct?

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. You've seen -- have you seen numerous pictures of Sheikh

Yassin?

A. Yes.

Q. Is Government Exhibit Photo 2 with respect to the

1987-to-2003 time frame, is this a later-year depiction of him

or an earlier-year depiction of him?

A. It's impossible to know, but from the context, it appears

to have been an earlier.

Q. But he was in jail for much of the earlier period?

A. Yes. I'm trying to answer this without getting into more

details of the picture.

Q. Sure. Is there something in the picture that would allow

you to identify it as to general time frame without telling me

what it is?

A. There's something in the picture that suggests general

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time frame. I don't know the time frame for this picture.

Q. Okay. And what -- what is the general time frame that

appears to be suggested by the picture without -- without

speaking of specific details?

A. It would likely be a picture from shortly after his

release from prison in one of those two instances.

MR. BLOOM: I didn't hear that.

THE COURT: "In one of those two instances."

MR. BLOOM: Thank you.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. So would it be fair to say in all likelihood this was a

picture taken of him after 1993?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection, Judge.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. After one of his two releases, which two releases again?

A. 1993 and 1997.

Q. So what is depicted in this picture, would it suggest --

does it suggest to you a likely time frame that post-dates

1993?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Move to publish Photo 2 as a

demonstrative.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I would object and ask for a side

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bar.

THE COURT: Your objection is sustained. We don't

need a side bar.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, you've indicated that part of how Hamas claims

and continues to claim responsibility for various attacks is

the publishing of suicide video wills, is that right?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, I'm handing you what is marked as Government

Exhibit Photo Group 6A, 6B and 6C and Translation and ask you

whether you are familiar with the imagery that appears in

these three photos?

A. I am.

Q. In general terms, Government Exhibit Photo Group 6,

specifically 6A, what generally is depicted there without

going into details?

A. This is a picture or what appears to be a specific frame

from a videotaped living will.

Q. And do you recognize the individual or figure that is

depicted in all three, 6A, 6B and 6C?

A. Yes.

Q. And are you familiar from your work with the specific -- a

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specific terrorist incident that would be associated with this

particular imagery?

A. Yes.

Q. Approximately when did that occur?

A. It was in the context of the second Intifada after 2000.

I think it was around 2004, 2005.

Q. And the second of these, would you describe it generally,

Photo Group 6B specifically, in general terms without

detailing the imagery.

A. This appears to be the same image of the individual,

superimposed against a different backdrop in a poster in part

of it, and then the other part there are three other pictures

of the individual.

Q. And Photo Group 6C in general terms?

A. Again, another depiction, likely from that same living

will video, she's wearing the same outfit, the same clothing,

superimposed against another background in a poster format.

Q. And all in relation to an individual who has claimed to

have committed a suicide attack in the 2000s, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right.

A. Claimed prior to the attack obviously.

Q. And is -- are these three, 6A, 6B and 6C, representative

of the various ways in which Hamas continues after the fact of

an incident to claim and utilize for its own benefit specific

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attacks?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it reflective of the various ways in which Hamas

proselytizes and radicalizes on the basis of specific

incidents or attacks?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Move to publish Photo Group 6A, 6B and

6C.

MR. DEUTSCH: I object on 403 grounds.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. You may publish for

demonstrative purposes only.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. With respect to Photo Group 6A, you indicated that you are

familiar with who the individual depicted here is. Do you

recall a name?

A. Her name is Rima Al-Riashi.

Q. And what is she depicted as doing --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. -- in the photo?

MR. MOFFITT: I object. This photo speaks for

itself. He doesn't need to say what she's depicted as doing.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: I disagree, Judge. There is -- there

are specific -- there's a specific stance, specific items and

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specific backdrop that all relate to the iconography of the

organization we've been discussing --

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. FERGUSON: -- which I think the jury is entitled

to hear.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You may answer.

THE WITNESS: Can you ask the question again?

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. What is this particular individual depicted as doing in

the photo?

A. She's wearing camouflage, standing in front of a Hamas

banner, wearing a Hamas bandana of sorts and another theme

across her chest. She is holding some type of assault rifle.

She has a pistol and a grenade strapped on to her. In her

other hand, she's holding what appears to be the Quran.

Q. And what's significant to the particular posing garb and

iconography depicted in this photo does this have with respect

to Hamas?

A. This is the traditional pose for the living will of a

martyr video. This particular video was widely circulated.

Q. I turn your attention to Government Exhibit Photo Group

6C, and would you please tell us what is depicted in this

photograph -- I'm sorry -- in this image?

A. Again, Ms. Riashi is posing with an assault weapon in

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military fatigues. There's a background of the emblem of the

Qassam Brigades, the terrorist wing of Hamas. In the bottom

foreground, there is a depiction of the Al Aqsa mosque in

Jerusalem.

Q. And directing your attention back to 6A, depicting the

individual holding a firearm and the Quran, what significance

does that have in relation to the iconography of the Al-Qassam

Brigades?

A. The symbolism of fighting with the holy book in one hand

and weapons in the other.

Q. And is that reflected in the emblem of the Al-Qassam

Brigades?

A. It is.

Q. In addition to individual suicide bombers, does Hamas and

its leadership issue statements glorifying or lionizing others

of its leaders?

A. Yes.

Q. And what sorts of places have you seen these statements

published or issued?

A. Magazines, leaflets, communiques, web sites.

Q. Within your field, are you aware of whether or not there

are any specific magazines that are regarded as published by

Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you name -- can you name a couple?

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A. The one that I'm familiar with is a Filistine Al-Muslema.

Q. And you've seen issues of Filistine Al-Muslema?

A. I have.

Q. And what sorts of purposes does Hamas put that publication

to?

A. Its radicalizing propaganda. It covers the plight of

Palestinians in general, particularly Palestinians in various

refugee camps, not only in the West Bank and Gaza but in other

parts of the Muslim world; but it also will publish the text

of the living will of suicide bombers, poems and articles

lauding them and their activities.

They will sometimes lay claim of responsibility for

attacks in the context of those -- those articles.

Q. And as you have seen, reviewed and analyzed that

publication and materials from it, does the publication

reflect any sort of division or separation of the political

branches -- of the branches of Hamas?

A. Absolutely not.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Handing you what's marked as Government Exhibit Filistine

Al-Muslema, specifically the back page of that publication.

In general terms, without identifying the specifics,

let me ask you, first of all, are you familiar with the

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magazine that you have in your hand?

A. I am.

Q. And are you familiar with the back page specifically of

that magazine that you have in your hands, Government Exhibit

Filistine Al-Muslema?

A. Yes.

Q. And without identifying the particulars, what is generally

depicted in that, the back page of the publication?

A. It's a letter. There's a small picture in the top right

corner of the author of the letter, and the text of the letter

is superimposed over an image of the person about whom the

letter is writing.

Q. And this is a 1996 issue of the publication, yes?

A. It is.

MR. MOFFITT: Can we see what he's looking at, your

Honor?

MR. FERGUSON: Sure.

MR. MOFFITT: Is it just the back page?

THE COURT: That's my understanding.

MR. FERGUSON: He has only the back page in front,

but I'm happy to show Mr. Moffitt --

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. FERGUSON: -- the full publication. We're only

going to speak from the back page.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

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Q. And is the back page reflective of the sorts of statements

that you're familiar with in which one Hamas leader lionizes

or glorifies another member of Hamas?

A. It is.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, excuse me, he's looking at a

document in Arabic, correct?

THE COURT: I don't think he has anything before him

now. Mr. Moffitt has it.

MR. DEUTSCH: Well, the document he's looking at that

was handed to me is in Arabic. He doesn't read Arabic, so I

don't understand what he's testifying to.

THE COURT: Lay your foundation.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, with respect to your understanding as to what

this particular document is, what have you done to form that

understanding?

A. I sat down with a certified Arabic language expert and had

some of the magazine, this particular volume, translated, and

then -- in written form, and then went through the rest of the

magazine together with the translator face-to-face.

Some of it I didn't feel the need to have translated

on paper and some I did, but we went through almost the

entirety of the magazine and the back page in great detail.

Q. And from that, did you form a general understanding as to

the content of what appears on the back page of the magazine?

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A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Move to publish as a demonstrative the

back page of Government Exhibit Filistine Al-Muslema.

MR. MOFFITT: I object.

THE COURT: On what basis?

MR. MOFFITT: Rule of completeness. Separating the

back page from the magazine. It's a publication. It's not

really fair to separate the back.

THE COURT: Do you want him to publish the entire

thing?

MR. MOFFITT: Yes.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. FERGUSON: I would publish the entire thing.

THE COURT: You may.

MR. FERGUSON: Including the back page. May I have

permission?

THE COURT: You may. Yes, you may publish the entire

magazine.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. From the process that you went through that you just

described, I'd like you to tell us your understanding as to

what this back page of the document actually is. There's a

photo in the upper right. Do you recognize the individual in

that photo?

A. Yes.

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Q. Who is it?

A. That is Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. And what's Mr. Marzook's position within Hamas?

A. He is the deputy chief of the Hamas political bureau.

Q. Okay. And in the center, the backdrop of this document,

there's another individual who is depicted. Do you recognize

that individual?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is it?

A. That is Yehiya Ayyash.

Q. And who is Yehiya Ayyash?

A. Yehiya Ayyash was a notorious Hamas bomb maker.

Q. And what was the time frame within which Yehiya Ayyash

engaged in these activities as you understand them?

A. 1994 when the string of Hamas suicide bombings picked up

in earnest as we saw earlier until he was killed in 1996.

Q. And what's your understanding as to this statement or the

content of the written portion of the back page of Government

Exhibit Filistine Al-Muslema?

A. There's a date just below what we're able to see here in

Arabic which indicates this is from early 1996, shortly after

Ayyash was killed. This is a letter by Marzook, lauding and

lionizing Ayyash and his contribution to the cause in the form

of producing bombs for Hamas.

Q. And is there anything about the statement as you

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understand it in which Mr. Marzook shies away from the

terrorist activities of Yehiya Ayyash?

A. No.

Q. Dr. Levitt as you sit here today, has Hamas to your

knowledge ever renounced claims of responsibility for the

incidents which you have discussed in court?

MR. MOFFITT: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. As you sit here today, Dr. Levitt, to your knowledge, has

Hamas ever issued statements to the media stating that it was

not in the terrorist or suicide bombing business as broadly

perceived by the rest of the world?

A. No.

Q. And as you sit here today, Dr. Levitt, has Hamas ever

renounced jihadist violence in the pursuit of its territorial

objectives as stated in its charter?

A. No.

Q. And as you sit here today, to your knowledge, has Hamas

ever renounced or modified its charter to outlaw or at least

no longer endorse violent jihad?

A. No.

MR. FERGUSON: No further questions.

THE COURT: Cross-examination.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

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BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Sir, in this event timeline that you prepared, I notice

that you didn't put in any of the killings of civilian

Palestinians by the Israeli military or armed settlers, is

that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. You left all those out, right?

A. They're not on trial here.

Q. Yes or no? Did you leave them out of your timeline?

A. They are not there, yes.

Q. And you're familiar with the Israeli human rights

organization B'Tselem, are you not?

A. B'Tselem, yes.

Q. Okay. And would you disagree with this finding by

B'Tselem: That between 1987 and April of 2006, the human

rights organization B'Tselem showed that 1,426 Israeli

military personnel and civilians were killed by Palestinian

factions --

MR. FERGUSON: I'm going to object --

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. -- compared with 5,050 Palestinians killed by Israelis

during those years?

Would you disagree with that?

THE COURT: What's your objection?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, he's simply reading into the

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record a quote from -- a hearsay quote from other sources. He

hasn't laid proper foundation for even discussing this

particular matter. He should ask the witness what he knows

about the subject matter first at least.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge --

THE COURT: Objection overruled. The question was

would you disagree with it.

MR. DEUTSCH: Right.

THE COURT: If he doesn't have any basis -- wait a

minute. Let me finish, Mr. Deutsch. If he doesn't have any

basis to answer, he can respond to that.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Do you need me to repeat the question, sir?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. I'll rephrase it though. In the period between

1987 and April of 2006, there was about 1,400 Israelis killed,

military personnel and civilians, while at the same time 5,000

Palestinians were killed by Israelis.

Do you disagree with that?

A. I have no basis to answer.

Q. Well, you have a lot of expertise on Israeli civilians

killed by Hamas, do you not?

A. That's part of my expertise, yes.

Q. Are you not interested in the fact that Palestinian

civilians, unarmed Palestinian people, are killed by Israelis

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five times more?

A. I can't speak to five times more, but, of course, I'm

concerned when any civilians are hurt.

Q. Well, did you ever read the Israeli human rights report

that talked about the killing of Palestinian civilians by

Israeli military and armed settlers?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I object. Two bases: First,

this is -- flies directly in the face of the motion in limine.

Second, it's beyond the witness's stated expertise,

which is specifically on the subject of Palestinian terrorist

organizations and specifically Hamas.

MR. DEUTSCH: It goes directly to the bias of this

witness, Judge.

THE COURT: The question was -- overruled.

Your objection, the question was did you ever read,

and you may answer that question. If you need the whole

question, I can read it back.

THE WITNESS: No, it's okay.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I've read many reports, including the human rights

organizations. I don't know if I've read that one.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, do you know whether or not approximately five times

more unarmed Palestinian civilians have been killed than

Israeli civilians?

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A. I don't.

Q. Do you disagree with that?

A. I have no basis to agree or disagree.

Q. Okay. Now, back in 1992 and up to January of '93, you

weren't holding yourself out as an expert on Hamas, were you,

sir?

A. No.

Q. How old were you back in 1992?

A. 22.

Q. You were a college student back then, weren't you?

A. I was.

Q. And, in fact, you were a student at the Yeshiva

University, were you not?

A. I was.

Q. And that's a Jewish institution, is it not?

A. It is.

Q. And it has very close relations with Israel, does it not?

A. I actually don't know.

Q. Well, does it have an extension of the university that's

in Israel?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, are you familiar with the S. Daniel Abraham Israel

Program?

A. No.

Q. How about the Hebron Fund?

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A. No.

Q. How about the Israeli Club at Yeshiva University?

A. No.

Q. How come you went to the Yeshiva University, sir?

A. It was an opportunity for me, before I engaged in full

life and didn't have the time, to explore my Jewish heritage,

to engage in a dual curriculum, Jewish studies and secular

studies.

Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the Yeshiva University

annually gives an honorary degree to the prime minister of

Israel?

A. No.

Q. Do you know that it gave honorary degrees to seven prime

ministers of Israel?

A. No.

Q. Now, I think you told the jury last week that one of the

most important part of your expertise is your field study,

where you actually went out and had firsthand interaction with

the subjects of your expertise, is that right?

A. In part, yes.

Q. And you indicated that was very important, right?

A. Sure.

Q. And, of course, you didn't start your field study until

1997, correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. In fact, you didn't go to the occupied territories of the

West Bank until 1997, correct?

A. Not to do research.

Q. And prior to 1997, you had been to Israel many times,

hadn't you?

A. I've been. Not many times.

Q. Well, you lived in Israel for two years, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was the occasion that had you living in the State

of Israel?

A. My father worked for an American drug company in its

Israel operations.

Q. And your father's name is Israel, isn't it?

A. No.

Q. Who is Israel Levitt?

A. That's my grandfather.

Q. Okay.

A. Actually, his name is Irving.

Q. Now, is it fair to say then that prior to your trip to do

your field study in 1997, the information that you have about

the period between let's say 1992 and January of 1993 is based

on what you read over the Internet, what you read in

publications and what conversations you had with other people?

A. No.

Q. Well, did you have any firsthand information prior to 1997

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of the conditions or the events in the occupied territories?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you ever do any field research in the occupied

territories prior to 1997?

A. No.

Q. Now, is it true that your information then is provided to

you based on what other people told you and what you read?

A. When you say what other people told me to include

interviews of people who were on the ground in that time

period, yes.

Q. Yeah, what other -- you weren't on the ground.

A. Correct.

Q. You had to talk to other people, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you don't speak Arabic, do you, sir?

A. Correct.

Q. And you don't read Arabic, right?

A. Correct.

Q. But you do speak Hebrew, don't you?

A. I do.

Q. And you do read Hebrew.

A. I do.

Q. And isn't it fair to say that, therefore, you would be

able to read Israeli documents in their original language?

A. Depending on how complicated they are.

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Q. Okay. And would you be able to speak to Israelis in their

language?

A. Again, depending.

Q. But the information that you have to get from people who

speak and write Arabic would have to go through a translator,

correct?

A. In some cases. Very often the people I speak to in the

territories speak English.

Q. When you say territories, sir, you're talking about

occupied territories, right?

A. Talking about the West Bank and Gaza.

Q. Are you talking about territories that are militarily

occupied by the Israeli army?

A. You can call it military occupied. You can call it

disputed.

Q. Well, is it or isn't it?

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch, let him finish his answer.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. I'm sorry.

THE COURT: I'll give you all the time you need to

cross-examine, but we need to hear the witness.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. They are military occupied. They are disputed. They

should hopefully be the Palestinian state some day. You can

call them what you like.

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BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, I would like to call them what's accurate.

Are those territories occupied by the Israeli Defense

Forces?

Let's go back to '92, okay? Were they occupied by

the Israeli Defense Forces?

A. Yes.

Q. And, therefore, isn't it correct to call them occupied

territories?

A. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you.

Q. I said, therefore, isn't it correct to call them occupied

territories?

A. Certainly.

Q. Why do you call them territories then instead of occupied

territories?

A. It's -- I call them both frankly. It's whatever comes off

the tongue.

Political science usually refers to them as occupied

territories or territories.

Q. Now, did you ever think it was important, based on your

expertise, to learn to read and speak Arabic?

A. Yes.

Q. But you haven't.

A. I've started several times, and the -- trying to do that,

Arabic is a very complicated language to learn, while

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finishing a Ph.D. and raising a family is difficult. It's

something I still hope to do.

I have started, but I don't claim to have mastered

anywhere near enough to be able to say that I speak or read

really any Arabic.

Q. That's a limitation on your expertise, is it not?

A. It's a significant one that I can overcome.

Q. That you think you overcome.

A. No, I overcome it.

Q. Now, you testified last week that you identified, as the

government flashed up on the screen, leaders of Hamas,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And one of the leaders that was flashed up was Sheikh

Yassin, right?

A. Correct.

Q. You never met Sheikh Yassin, right?

A. That's correct.

Q. You never interviewed Sheikh Yassin, right?

A. Correct.

Q. In fact, Sheikh Yassin was a paraplegic, right, from ten

years old, isn't that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And, in fact, in 2004, he was killed with nine other

people by an Israeli missile, isn't that right?

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A. That is correct.

Q. He wasn't carrying a bomb when he was killed, right?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, did you read about how he was killed?

A. I did.

Q. And was he carrying a bomb?

A. It didn't say.

Q. Was he carrying a weapon when he was killed in his

wheelchair by an Israeli missile?

A. Didn't say. It's unlikely, but --

Q. And you also showed -- they also showed you a picture and

you identified a man by the name of Rantisi, right?

A. Correct.

Q. You never met Mr. Rantisi, right?

A. Right.

Q. You never interviewed Mr. Rantisi, right?

A. Right.

Q. And by the way, Mr. Rantisi, he was a political leader of

Hamas, you said, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And he was also killed by an Israeli missile, was he not?

A. Yes.

Q. Assassinated, correct?

A. Sure.

Q. Sure?

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A. If that's the term you choose to use.

Q. Well, do you agree that he was assassinated?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he carrying a weapon when an Israeli missile shot him

down?

A. Again, I don't know, but he was certainly assassinated.

Q. You also identified a man by the name of Shahada, right?

Salah Shahada?

A. Salah Shahada, yes.

Q. And you never met him, right?

A. No.

Q. You never interviewed him, right?

A. No.

Q. And by the way, he was -- the Israelis dropped a two-ton

bomb on the apartment building where he lived and he was

assassinated, right?

A. Correct.

Q. How many other people, civilians, were killed when he was

killed?

A. There were many.

Q. Many.

A. I don't know the number.

Q. More than 20?

A. I don't know, but it was a tragedy.

Q. Tragic.

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A. Yeah.

Q. And you also identified Khalid Mishal, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you said that he is the political leader of Hamas,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you never met him, right?

A. Correct.

Q. You never interviewed him, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And do you recall that the Israeli secret police tried to

assassinate Mishal when he was in Jordan?

A. That's right.

Q. They put some poison in his ear, right?

A. That's right.

Q. And, in fact, President Clinton had to call the Israelis

to demand the antidote so his life could be saved, correct?

A. That's right.

Q. Is that shocking to you, too, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. And you also identified Dr. Mahmoud Al-Zahar, right?

A. Correct.

Q. You never met Dr. Mahmoud Al-Zahar, did you?

A. No.

Q. You never interviewed him, did you?

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A. No.

Q. And by the way, you know, though, that the Israelis bombed

his house, did they not?

A. I don't know actually.

Q. Do you know his son was killed by an Israeli bomb in his

home?

A. I did not know.

Q. And I think you told the jury -- correct me if I'm

mistaken -- actually, the first Hamas you referred to

terrorist person you interviewed was in 2004, is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. So in 1992 to January of 1993, you never interviewed any

Hamas people, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. The first one was literally almost a decade later, right?

A. Actually, I think I did interview some in 1997.

Q. Okay. They told you they were Hamas people?

A. I don't recall.

Q. Okay. So you don't have any specifics. You think you

did.

A. Correct.

Q. You're not sure.

A. Correct.

Q. But you're sure in 2004 you did interview someone that

said they were a Hamas person, right?

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So the information that you're giving to the jury

as to the circumstances and the situation from 1992 to January

of 1993 is not based on any interviews with any Hamas leaders,

correct?

A. I can't recall --

Q. Your own interviews from 1992 to January of 1993. Did you

do any personal interviews with Hamas leaders?

A. Those are two different questions. Which one are you

asking?

Q. The question I'm asking you, sir, is from -- through 1992

up to January of 1993, did you interview, personally

interview, any Hamas leaders?

A. No, as I said earlier.

Q. Now, after you left the Yeshiva University, you went on to

the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts, right?

A. Correct.

Q. In fact, you were there in two occasions, in 1995 and then

again you got your Ph.D. there in 2005, is that right?

A. I was actually there for the duration, from 1993 to 1998,

one year at Harvard, but still in the program. Technically, I

was still enrolled at the school finishing my doctorate until

last year.

Q. Now, let me ask you, sir, did you choose to go to Tufts

because of its close links with the Israeli security

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establishment?

A. Actually, I don't know of such links. The reason I went

actually is because it has such a good program on the Middle

East, which is known to be Arabist in nature, which I felt

would be good exposure.

Q. Well, did you know that Jonathan Pollard who spied for

Israel, spied on the United States for Israel was trained at

Tufts, that program you were in?

A. He was in the program for a year. It's a big joke at the

school.

Q. Yeah. And what about Meir Lanski, a top figure in the

Israeli lobby, was also trained there. Did you know her?

A. Don't know her. Never heard of her.

Q. Okay. And did you know that the major benefactor of the

Tufts program is the Scaife Foundation, C-A-I-F-E?

A. I know there are Scaife support as well as Kuwaiti support

and Qatari support and lots of Arab support for the Fletcher

School.

Q. Any Palestinians in the program with you?

A. Sure.

Q. What were their names, sir?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Oh, sure, but you don't remember their names.

A. There were a lot of Arab students with us, Palestinians,

Bahrainis, Syrians, Kuwaitis. I was friends with many of

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them. I haven't stayed in touch with almost any of the people

I went to school with then --

Q. Now, you also know -- excuse me. Are you done?

A. You interrupted me. I'm finished.

Q. Go ahead if you have anything more to say.

A. I'm fine.

Q. And also, you also knew that this Tufts program has a lot

of corporate support from military contractors, right? U.S.

military contractors?

A. Actually, I didn't.

Q. Raytheon?

A. Didn't know.

Q. Do you know Theodore Elliott?

A. No.

Q. Do you know that the senior vice president of Raytheon,

which makes missiles that U.S. gives to Israel, sits on the

board of Tufts?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection. He said he doesn't know,

Judge.

THE COURT: Overruled. He can answer that.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. No.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Then after you -- in the period after '95, '96, you went

to work for the FBI in 1998, correct?

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A. That's right.

Q. And you know that there are FBI agents involved in this

case, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you know the FBI conduct could be an issue in this

case. Did you know that?

A. You're telling me now.

Q. Well, you didn't know that.

A. I had no reason to believe FBI conduct would be an issue

in this case, but, okay.

Q. All right. And you're testifying in a case in which your

former colleagues of the FBI are involved, is that right?

A. I don't know if any of my actual colleagues were involved,

but I was -- I was employed at the FBI. There is FBI

involvement.

Q. And then after you left the FBI, you went to the

Washington Institute For Near East Policy, correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. Sir, what is AIPAC?

A. AIPAC is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, and

it is the largest pro-Israel lobby in the United States.

Q. And there is a very strong pro-Israel lobby in this

country, is there not?

A. Yes.

Q. And that -- that -- those group of people led by AIPAC try

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

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to influence U.S. policy when it comes to Israel, isn't that

right?

A. Yes, within the system, sure.

Q. And it's accurate to say that the U.S. gives more money

and military aid and other aid to Israel than it does to

Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean combined, isn't that

right?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection. Relevance, scope.

THE COURT: You're pushing it on the outer edges, but

overruled, you can answer that if you can.

THE WITNESS: America gives more aid to Egypt and

Israel than anybody else.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Sir, would you answer my question? Does the United States

give more aid to Israel than Africa, Latin America and the

Caribbean combined?

A. I don't know what America gives to those areas of the

world combined.

Q. How much money does the U.S. Government give to Israel

every year?

A. I think --

MR. FERGUSON: Objection. Relevance, scope.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Now, the man that actually started the Washington

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Institute For Near East Policy, the think tank that you joined

in 2001 --

A. In 1998.

Q. -- was a man by the name of Martin Indyk, right?

A. It was 1998.

Q. Yeah, I'm sorry -- no -- 1998, yeah.

A. I'm sorry, you're right, 2001.

Yes, Martin Indyk.

Q. And Martin Indyk was the former director of research at

AIPAC, right?

A. I don't know what his title was, but he had worked at

AIPAC, then at the State Department.

Q. So he was active at AIPAC before he started the Washington

Institute For Near East Policy, right?

A. He was active at AIPAC. I actually don't know how

involved he was in setting it up. He was the first director

briefly before going to the State Department.

Q. And Barbie Weinberg, do you know who she is?

A. Yes.

Q. She's a former vice president of AIPAC, right?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, she was involved with AIPAC, was she not?

A. I don't know.

Q. Well, was she -- is she a trustee of the institute, the

think tank that you were part of?

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

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A. She was a trustee of the Washington Institute. Is, I

believe.

Q. And she's very involved in pro-Israel affairs, is she not?

A. I don't know.

Q. And what about Fred Lafer, L-A-F-E-R, former president of

the Jewish Federation of New Jersey. You know who he is,

right?

A. Fred Lafer, yes.

Q. And he's one of the trustees, right?

A. Was, I think still is.

Q. And you -- when you were at the Washington Institute, you

worked with a man by the name of David Makowski who was a

senior fellow with you, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Former editor of the Jerusalem Post, right?

A. And an editor at U.S. News and World Report.

Q. And the institute you were involved with worked very

closely with the Jaffee Center For Strategic Studies, correct?

A. No.

Q. You didn't work with the Jaffee Center?

A. I never did.

Q. Did your institute work with the Jaffee Center?

A. I don't know what you mean by worked with. I don't think

we ever had a joint event that I know of.

Q. Well, what about --

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A. At least while I was there.

Q. You know Ze'ev Schiff?

A. Yes.

Q. And Ehud Yaari?

A. Yes.

Q. They're both Israeli scholars from the Jaffee Institute,

right?

A. They're both Israeli journalists. I don't know what their

other affiliations are.

Q. Now, would you agree with Mr. Indyk, the founder of your

institute's statement that the central objective of the

institute is to keep the strategic relationship of Israel at

the center of U.S. Middle East policy?

A. I'm not familiar with that quote. I don't know where it's

from. I would certainly say that at least while I was there,

that's not what the Washington Institute was all about.

Q. Well, would you characterize it as a pro-Israeli think

tank?

A. No. I would and frequently have been asked that question,

and I've always answered that my personal analysis and

Washington Institute's -- bless you -- overall analysis should

be judged on the merits of its analysis alone, not whether we

have Jewish trustees or what color the skin of our trustees

are, not whether we're Jewish or Muslim or otherwise, but is

the actual analysis sound.

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Q. Well, isn't your analysis been consistently to favor the

State of Israel on all points?

A. No. Actually, I've been criticized for being

insufficiently pro-Israel and insufficiently pro-Arab, which

means I'm -- I think I'm probably somewhere right in the

middle.

Q. Who criticized you as being pro-Arab, sir?

A. Lots of people. Reviews of my book recently.

Q. Well, have you read a review of your book by Khalid Hroub,

H-R-O-U-B?

A. No.

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch, let me know whenever you're

ready for a break.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. I think this is good. I can

stop right here for now.

THE COURT: We'll take our second break of the day

and pick up in about 15 minutes, about 25 after.

(Jury exits courtroom.)

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson, I'll give you your exhibits

back, and I'll see you at 25 after.

(Recess from 3:12 to 3:25 p.m.)

(Jury enters courtroom.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Mr. Deutsch, you may continue.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you, Judge.

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BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Sir, the dissertation you wrote for your -- when you were

at Tufts University, it's In Honor of Israel Levitt, is that

right?

A. Yes.

Q. I thought you just told us a little while ago before the

break that that wasn't a person named Israel Levitt.

A. Irving is his name. My grandmother, for reasons I

honestly don't know, calls him Israel. It's my grandfather.

Q. Well, you put Israel Levitt in your book, right? You

didn't put Irving, right?

A. I honestly don't remember, but my grandmother calls him

Israel. That's probably what I did.

Q. Do you need for me to show it to you or do you accept my

representation?

A. I accept your representation.

Q. Okay.

A. It's not particularly important.

Q. And your grandmother called him Israel in honor of the

State of Israel?

A. No. I think that Israel is his Hebrew name, having

nothing to do with the country.

Q. Okay. And when you lived in Israel, was that during the

time of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and East

Jerusalem?

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A. Yes.

Q. Now, after you left the Washington Institute, you went

back to work for the government, is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And, in fact, you're working for the Treasury Department,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And, in fact, you know the Treasury Department has issued

some opinions about Hamas in this -- in this situation, right?

A. In what situation?

Q. They've issued some opinions about Hamas, correct?

A. Uh --

Q. They have a certain view of Hamas, the Treasury

Department, correct?

A. No.

Q. No, they don't?

A. The Treasury Department --

Q. They're neutral as to Hamas? They're neutral as to Hamas?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Yes, they are.

THE COURT: Let him finish his answer.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Are you telling this jury that the U.S. Treasury is

neutral as to Hamas?

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A. Your question is vague. If you're asking if the

Treasury --

Q. Well, wait a minute. If my question is vague, sir, I'll

rephrase it for you, okay?

A. That would be great.

Q. Are you saying that the U.S. Treasury Department doesn't

have an opinion as to Hamas?

A. The U.S. Treasury Department has designated Hamas as a

terrorist organization.

Q. Okay.

A. But --

Q. And those are the people you work for, right?

A. But I'm not sure what you mean by opinion.

Q. Well, those -- the people that you work for have taken a

position about Hamas, is that correct?

A. Hamas was designated --

Q. Sir, it is a yes or no question.

A. As phrased, no.

Q. Does -- do the people that you work for, have they taken a

position about Hamas? Yes or no?

A. Okay. As asked, no.

Q. No. So they don't have any view of Hamas, the U.S.

Treasury Department.

A. I'm sorry, are you asking if the individuals or the

department?

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Q. No, I'm talking about the department, the U.S. Treasury

Department that you work for. They've taken a public position

against Hamas, haven't they? Yes or no.

A. The U.S. Treasury Department has designated Hamas a

terrorist organization. Taken a public position against is

not in the Treasury Department's vocabulary.

Q. Well, when they designated Hamas as a terrorist

organization, that's a position against Hamas, isn't it?

A. It could be construed that way, yes.

Q. Thank you. Thank you.

Now, a lot of the information that you rely on that

you've testified to in the last -- last week and today come

from Israeli intelligence, does it not?

A. I can't tell you how much, but some does, and it's vetted

and corroborated against other sources.

Q. Does a substantial amount of information that you have

testified to come from Israeli intelligence sources?

A. Some of it does, yes.

Q. And you trust them, right?

A. As I said, I don't trust anything just because anybody

says it. The academic rigor requires that you try and vet it

against other sources and other scholars, so --

Q. They trust you, right?

A. You'd have to ask them.

Q. They talk to you, right?

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

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A. And other journalists and academics.

Q. Yeah. And they give you information, correct?

A. Along with many others, sure.

Q. And they -- and they're selective about the information

they give you, wouldn't you say?

A. Actually, I don't know, but I act on the presumption that

anybody who gives me information is selective in what they

give.

Q. Okay. They give you information that they want you to

somehow disseminate in your books and in your articles and in

your testimony, correct?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

If you can answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I don't know.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Have -- and you've also, among the Israeli intelligence

agencies that you've met with is the Shaba'k, right?

A. It's a nickname for the Shin Bet, yes.

Q. Shin Bet is another name for Shaba'k, right?

A. Shaba'k is a nickname. Shin Bet is what it's called, yes.

Q. Okay. And Shaba'k means those who must not be seen,

right?

A. No.

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Q. No? Okay. And they're the ones that interrogate and get

confessions from Palestinians who are arrested in the occupied

territories, correct, among other things?

A. Shin Bet and Israeli police both participate in those

types of procedures, yes.

Q. But the Shin Bet are the ones that interrogate them in

secret places, isn't that right?

A. I don't have any way to answer that question.

Q. Well, last week, you told this jury a couple of times that

you read Human Rights Watch Report about the relationship

between Hamas political and military, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. I take it you read the Human Rights Reports of the Human

Rights Watch?

A. And B'Tselem and many others.

Q. Okay. And you know then that Human Rights Watch and

B'Tselem have condemned the Shaba'k as carrying out systematic

torture and coercion of Palestinians who were arrested and

detained.

You've read that, right?

A. I've read that.

Q. Okay. And is there any reason that you don't believe

that?

A. It's complicated. I haven't done academic research into

it, so that I haven't vetted the sources against others.

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It is disputed. It is a sensitive issue. I haven't

viewed or certainly not participated in that --

Q. You're not an expert on that, right? Is that what you're

saying?

A. I'm saying that, and that the reports that I've used have

been by the Israeli police, which doesn't --

Q. Oh, you -- you have on one side the Human Rights Watch

which you designated twice last week as something that you

relied on, and B'Tselem, which is an Israeli human rights

group, and then on the other side you have the Israeli police,

and that's what makes it complicated, right?

A. No, what makes it complicated is that however that

information is derived, and I can't comment as to the

specifics of how, the information I've used is corroborated by

other sources.

Q. Well, I'm asking you, sir, whether or not you have read

that the Shaba'k or Shin Bet, as you call it, participate in

systematic torture and coercion against Palestinian detainees?

MR. FERGUSON: I'm going to object, relevance, scope,

expertise.

MR. DEUTSCH: No, Judge, it's totally relevant

because he's relying on information given to him by these

people which is based on statements of people who were

tortured. I want to find out his -- his -- the basis for it.

MR. FERGUSON: The witness has made very clear he

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relies on police reports. The question here is with respect

to Shin Bet.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. I'll clear it up.

THE COURT: Rephrase it. Clear it up.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. You say when you're making your determinations and your

opinion, you're relying on Israeli police reports, is that

right?

A. When we're talking about reports from so-called

confessions, yes.

Q. What -- and do you also rely on the Shin Bet reports of

confessions?

A. I've never seen such a report.

Q. You've never seen any Shin Bet reports.

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. Do you know that the Shin Bet works very closely

with the Israeli police?

A. I assume the -- all Israeli law enforcement and

intelligence work closely together.

Q. And do you know that first the Shin Bet coerces the person

and gets them to break down, and then they give them to the

Israeli police to make a statement?

A. I don't --

MR. FERGUSON: I object, relevance and scope and

expertise.

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THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, do you think it would be important when you're

relying on information to make expert determinations to

determine whether or not the information is reliable? Yes or

no.

A. Absolutely.

Q. And if you knew that the Israeli police were relying on

information that came from torture, would you discredit that

then?

A. If it could not be verified by vetting against other

sources, yes.

Q. And if it was just based on torture and could be verified,

then you'd rely on it, is that your testimony? It doesn't

bother you that relying on tortured evidence --

MR. FERGUSON: Objection, compound, argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Now, I take it you're familiar with the Israeli Supreme

Court opinions finding that the methods of the Shin Bet

violated international law and violated Israeli law and

constituted torture.

MR. FERGUSON: Objection, relevance, scope.

MR. DEUTSCH: It goes again to what he's relying on.

THE COURT: That's a yes or no question. Are you

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familiar with as Mr. Deutsch has just described?

THE WITNESS: No.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Are you telling us that you're not familiar with the

Israeli Supreme Court opinion of 1999?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection, asked and answered.

THE WITNESS: Never read it.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Never read it. It's not important, right?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection, argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained. He's not familiar with it.

Let's move on.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, is part of your expertise trying to understand what

happens to the Palestinian people who are living under

occupation? Is that within your expertise?

A. I don't know if it's within my expertise. It wasn't what

I was qualified for here, but it is something I try and do.

Q. Okay. And in order to try and do it, wouldn't you want to

know what happens to 5,000 Palestinians that were arrested

every year during the Intifada and subject to interrogation by

the Shaba'k?

A. I'm not sure how I'd go about doing that, and, again, it's

not an Arab expertise that I research, but I have, because of

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361

this, an interest in the Palestinian plight, spent time in the

West Bank and Gaza, including the refugee camps, to understand

the difficult conditions in which they live.

Q. So you -- you've read the B'Tselem Human Rights Report

about torture of Palestinian detainees. Is that what you're

telling us?

A. No, I didn't say that. I said I've read B'Tselem reports.

I couldn't sit here and tell you which ones I have or have not

read.

Q. How about the Human Rights Report on torture of

Palestinians under detention?

A. The same.

Q. You don't remember that?

A. I read a tremendous amount of material. It's possible I

read it. It would be something I'd be interested in reading.

Don't know if I did.

Q. Didn't make an impression on you, right?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection --

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. FERGUSON: -- relevance, argumentative.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. What about the United States State Department reports,

human rights reports on torture in the occupied territories?

Have you read those?

A. I've seen some of them.

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Q. And they -- what do you recall about those?

A. I don't offhand. I didn't review them in preparation for

this case.

Q. Well, all you reviewed in preparation for this case was

your book, right, and this chart you made and the Hamas

charter, right? Isn't that what you testified to?

A. Immediately preceding this case, correct.

Q. So everything that you may have read about Palestinians

being tortured under detention, you forgot, is that what

you're saying?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I'm going to object to

relevance here. The witness is not an expert and he has said

he is not expert and has not been qualified as an expert with

respect to the issues that are being inquired here. The

defense can call whomever they want, but that is not proper

cross-examination here.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Also that last

question was argumentative.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Is it not true, sir, that much of the available evidence

linking Hamas political leaders to terrorist activities come

from Israeli sources?

A. Some of it does.

Q. No, let me ask you this again, okay? I want to be very

clear with you.

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Much of the available evidence linking Hamas

political leaders to terrorist activities come from Israeli

sources.

A. Yes.

Q. Yes?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, of course, you say yes. You said it right in your

book at page 48, right?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection.

THE WITNESS: Excellent.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. And your book relies on the CIA information, right?

A. Only declassified information, nothing secret.

Q. The FBI?

A. Yes.

Q. The Department of Homeland Securities?

A. Again, all declassified material.

Q. The Canadian Secret Police?

A. Same.

Q. The Shaba'k or Shin Bet?

A. Same. Interviews mostly and some seized documents.

Q. So when you're testifying to this jury about the link

between Hamas political leaders and terrorist activities,

that's coming from the Israeli intelligence sources, correct?

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A. It's coming from multiple sources.

Q. Well, most of it is coming -- much of it is coming from

the Israeli sources, correct?

A. And if it's in there, it's corroborated by other sources

as well.

Q. You said that in your book, didn't you?

A. I believe I did.

Q. Okay. Now, you testified last week that you've testified

in several different cases, correct?

A. That's right.

Q. I think you testified in Cleveland, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. That was for the U.S. Government, the prosecution, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you were paid about $200 an hour, correct?

A. In that case, yes.

Q. And I take it you were paid for the time you spent

preparing and the time you spent testifying.

A. In that case, yes.

Q. And how much money total did you make in that case when

you testified for the U.S. Government?

A. I don't know.

Q. You forgot?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I'm going to object as to

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relevance as to other cases in this respect.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, this goes to his bias, his

prejudice. He testifies for the U.S. Government in all these

cases. I think it's totally proper to ask him these

questions.

MR. FERGUSON: How much money he previously earned

for services previously provided and completely rendered I

don't think is relevant to what's going on here now.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Okay. You also testified in a case in Charlotte, North

Carolina, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You testified for the U.S. Government, right?

A. Correct.

Q. For the prosecution, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you were paid $200 an hour in that case?

A. Yes.

Q. And I take it you don't remember how much money you made.

A. No, I don't.

Q. Okay. And then you testified in Brooklyn, New York for

the prosecution, for the U.S. Government, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you were paid $200 an hour in that case?

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A. Correct.

Q. And how -- and what year was that case?

A. The Brooklyn case was I think 2004, maybe early 2005.

Q. A couple years ago, right?

A. One or two years ago.

Q. How much money did you make in that case?

A. I have no idea.

Q. You don't remember what happened two years ago, how much

money you made in a case two years ago?

A. Exactly.

Q. But you're telling this jury what happened in 1992 and '93

when you were 22 years old, is that your testimony?

A. Based on the extensive research I've done, absolutely; and

if I did research into my earnings and looked it up, I can

tell you what it is. I just can't tell you by recollection

now.

Q. Well, maybe you can look it up and when you come back

tomorrow you can tell us. Is that possible?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. And then you also testified in a case in Tampa, Florida,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. How much money -- and it was for the government again,

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right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the prosecution, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you made $200 an hour in that case?

A. Yes.

Q. And how much money did you make in that case? You don't

remember, right?

A. I was about to guess. I have no idea.

Q. Well, give me a ballpark. I've just named four cases

where you testified for the government, for the prosecution.

$100,000?

A. Ballpark, I'd say probably total 50, 60. Honestly, I

don't have that recall here, but I made $200 an hour.

Q. Okay. So it's somewhere above $60,000, is that fair?

A. Maybe. Honestly, I -- you know, I want to be as

responsive to you as possible, but --

Q. And also you testified for the family of David Boim in a

civil case in Chicago, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you were paid $200 an hour in that case?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you were paid by the Anti-Defamation League in

that case?

A. No.

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Q. Well, were you hired by a man by the name of Nathan Lewin?

A. No.

Q. Who hired you in the Boim case?

A. Two lawyers from here in Chicago whose names are escaping

me, but --

Q. Did you work with Nathan Lewin in that case?

A. I didn't work directly with him. The Chicago law firm

that I worked with did work with Nathan Lewin.

My personal interaction was not with that law firm in

D.C. but with the law firm here in Chicago.

Q. But you know Nathan Lewin, right?

A. Uh --

Q. You know who he is?

A. I know who he is. I don't really know him.

Q. He's very much involved in the pro-Israel lobby in the

United States, is he not?

A. I really don't know.

Q. He's a leading figure in the Israeli -- in the pro-Israeli

Anti-Defamation League, is he not?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Do you know that the Anti-Defamation League was the one

that funded the Boim case?

A. I did not.

Q. But you developed a little cottage industry for yourself

going around the country testifying for the government in

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these cases, right?

A. I've developed expertise that federal judges have

recognized.

Q. And you've made a nice little pocket full of change for

yourself talking about things you read on the Internet and

read in books, correct?

A. It's about things that I've done research on, though not

in this case.

Q. Okay.

A. I haven't been paid here.

Q. Now, last week you gave the jury some background on the

Palestinian-Israeli conflict, correct? You mentioned some

things. I want to kind of review those with you.

Are you an expert on that?

A. I'm qualified here as an expert on Middle Eastern

terrorist groups.

Q. Oh, okay. What about what led up to the creation of

Middle Eastern terrorist groups? What causes it? Are you an

expert on it?

A. I believe I am an expert in what causes terrorism, but I'm

not sure that that is what you're looking for if what you're

looking for is historical expertise in the history of the

Middle East.

Q. Well, you probably have read and studied the history of

the Middle East, right?

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A. I have.

Q. Okay. And you did testify last week that there was a

partition of the British mandate by the United Nations in '47,

'48, correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And as a result of that partition, originally the land was

divided maybe 52 percent for the Israelis and 48 percent for

the Palestinians. Is that fair?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't even know how the UN partitioned the British

mandate?

A. By percentage? No.

Q. Well, is it -- am I off? What do you think it is?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. You're telling us that you are an expert on the Middle

East and terrorist groups, and you cannot tell this jury how

the UN partitioned the British mandate?

A. Down to the single-digit percentage, no.

Q. Well, give me what your best -- your best understanding

is.

MR. FERGUSON: Objection. Judge, he's not letting

the witness answer.

THE COURT: Sustained. Mr. Deutsch, Kathy's going to

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have a very hard time getting down everything that's said if

you keep interrupting the witness, and I'm concerned that

maybe the jury can't hear his answers. So let him complete

his answer, please.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. Let me just show you this chart

that we've developed. There's also a map I could show you as

well, and maybe I'll do that. Maybe I'm going to put the map

on the witness stand.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, we don't have a copy of what is

being utilized here.

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm going to use the map.

MR. FERGUSON: But there's lots of writing on what is

going to be utilized.

THE COURT: Show Mr. Ferguson what you plan on using

first.

MR. DEUTSCH: Show him -- but I'm not even going to

use that.

Excuse me, Judge, I just need to find --

THE COURT: That's fine. Take your time.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you.

(Pause.)

MR. DEUTSCH: Here it is, sorry. Please forgive me.

THE COURT: Show it to Mr. Ferguson, please.

MR. DEUTSCH: Oh, he's seen this one.

THE COURT: Nice try, Mr. Deutsch.

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(Laughter.)

MR. FERGUSON: I've seen it before, yes.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you have -- Mr. Deutsch, before

you put it up, do you have an exhibit number for it --

MR. DEUTSCH: No.

THE COURT: -- for the record?

MR. DEUTSCH: I will put an exhibit number on it.

THE COURT: Okay. Please do that for the record.

You can hand write it. That's fine.

MR. DEUTSCH: Defendant Salah Exhibit 1.

THE COURT: Whatever you want to call it is fine with

me.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: It's not my exhibit.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Okay. Those maps look -- have any familiarity to you,

Mr. Expert?

A. Yes. I'm sorry?

Q. I'm asking if they have any familiarity to you?

A. They are familiar.

Q. Okay. And the one on the left is the entire Palestine

that was the British mandate, correct?

A. That is British mandate Palestine, yes.

Q. Yeah. And then the one in the middle is the partition

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that was created by the United Nations, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And it says the partition provided 48 percent of the land

for a Palestinian state and a 52 percent for the State of

Israel. Does that refresh your recollection as to the

history?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection. It's not recollection

refreshed. The witness said he simply could not speak to

percentages. He is not an expert in this realm.

THE COURT: The question was does that refresh your

recollection which requires a yes or a no.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. No.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, based on your study of this -- I take it being

someone who's an expert on the Middle East terrorist groups,

one of the things you would be studying would be the history

of the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis,

right?

A. Yes.

Q. That would be a basic part of your information, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And based on your study, what's your best

recollection of how that land was partitioned by the United

Nations?

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A. Are you asking me how the United Nations decided how to

partition it?

Q. No. I'm asking you when the United Nations partitioned

the land, what's your best understanding of how much of the

land was given to the Palestinians for a state and how much

was given to Israel for a state or for the Jewish people for a

state?

A. We can --

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, so we're clear, is he asking

for a lay opinion because the witness is very clear that he is

not an expert in these matters.

THE COURT: Sustained. If you can lay a foundation

that he can give some answer, that's fine, but you're asking

him to speculate.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. When you were at the Yeshiva University, did you have a

course on Middle Eastern history?

A. I don't know.

Q. What do you mean you don't know?

A. I took courses in Jewish history as part of the Judaic

studies part of it. I don't think I took a Middle East

history course while I was there, but we're talking about a

while back now.

Q. Well, they give you a course -- two courses on Jewish

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history. Does that deal with the Palestinians, or it's just

about Jewish people?

A. This was ancient Jewish history.

Q. Okay.

A. Not necessarily in the Middle East.

Q. Okay.

A. Maybe Jewish history in Europe, for example.

Q. Okay.

A. It's an opportunity to study things I wouldn't get a

chance to do any other time.

Q. Okay. Now, you -- after you left there, you went to the

Fletcher School of International Diplomacy, right?

A. Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy.

Q. Law and Diplomacy.

And you got a master's there?

A. I did, and a Ph.D.

Q. And got a Ph.D. there, and you're a doctor, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And as part of your education at Fletcher, did you study

the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict just beginning

at the time that the land was partitioned, 1947?

A. I never took a course specifically on this, but it was

covered in many different things. I spent a lot of time

reading and studying it.

These maps you show reflect generally how I recall

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the maps to be, but you can ask me as many times as you like

what the percentages were, and I still don't remember.

Q. Okay. That's fair enough. The maps show on the left the

entire land of the British mandate and then the middle map is

how the partition was -- how the land was divided by the

United Nations more or less. I'm not going to hold you to 52

or 48 --

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Thank you.

And it was your understanding based on your study

that these were supposed to be two states, a Jewish state that

was going to be called Israel and a Palestinian state, is that

right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And then I think you testified last week there was

a war after the partition. After the UN voted and they

partitioned the land, there was a war, right?

A. There was.

Q. Okay. And you referred -- you said that the Israelis call

it the war of independence, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And the Palestinians call it Al Nachba, right?

A. Correct, catastrophe.

Q. Which is translated the catastrophe, right?

A. Yes.

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Q. So for the Israelis it was some type of war of

independence, right? Independence from who?

A. Independence not necessarily from whom, but independence

as in gaining sovereignty and an independent state. It wasn't

necessarily --

Q. Well, the UN gave them an independent state, didn't they?

When they partitioned the land, they said here, Jewish people,

you're going to have this state. You call it Israel. This is

your land, right? Before the war of independence, they had a

state that was given to them.

A. That's misleading in the extreme.

Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this: After the war of

independence, did the -- did the Jewish state get about

25 percent more land than was given to them by the United

Nations?

A. Again, I don't know percentages but it got significantly

more land after the war.

Q. And that land that they got after that war was not given

to them by the UN in that partition, right?

A. Correct.

Q. They conquered that land, right, by war?

A. Okay.

Q. Okay? And that, therefore, that map -- the third map, all

the way on the right, shows how much land after that war

Israel had, or the Jewish state, and how much was left to the

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Palestinians, correct, more or less?

A. Yeah, this line of questioning is misleading, and I'm wary

of answering it this way in part because --

Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you another question, okay?

A. Sure.

Q. After that war, and you probably know this from your vast

knowledge of this, current events, the Palestinians wound up

with about 22 percent of the British mandate, correct?

A. They wound up with what you're seeing here, whatever

number that is.

Q. Well, it's about 22 percent, isn't it?

A. If you say so. I -- you know, I would love to give you a

specific number. I don't know what it is.

Q. Well, you know that the -- okay. But you accept my -- my

statement that it's 22 percent, right? You have no reason to

doubt me.

A. I have no reason to -- to doubt it, to support it. I

don't know where you got that figure from.

I can tell you these maps depict -- you know, they're

vague -- you know, they're large-scale maps, but they

generally depict the way things panned out.

Q. Okay.

A. I apologize I can't do you more on the numbers. You might

want to get a cartographer.

Q. What I'm trying to find out is, again, I've asked you this

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question. I didn't really understand. You said the war of

independence. The Israelis call it the war of independence,

and I asked you war of independence against whom?

And you said -- was it like when the United States

was the 13 colonies and we had a war, it was the war against

the British. It was a war of independence, right?

A. After the part --

MR. FERGUSON: Objection, relevance.

THE COURT: Objection to the form of the question is

sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Let me phrase another question.

The Palestinians call it the catastrophe because as a

result of the war, 800,000 people, more or less, became

refugees, is that fair?

A. As a result of the war and because neither Palestinians

nor Arab states accepted the 1947 partition, therefore, it was

misleading to say that Israel was given the land. It wasn't

accepted, and they were -- fought on the battlefield.

As a result of the war, the Palestinians ended up

with far less land than they would have, and there were many

refugees. I can't speak with authority, but there's a lot of

authorship, scholarly authorship out there on some who were

kicked out by Israelis. Others who left because they were

told by the Arabs leave your homes, we'll kick the Jews into

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the sea.

I'm not an expert in that. I've read on it, but --

Q. That's not your area of expertise.

A. But it clearly was a catastrophe for the Palestinians.

Q. Okay. You agree it was a catastrophe for the

Palestinians, right?

A. I can certainly see why Palestinians describe it as such.

Q. And you would also agree that, not holding you to the

exact number, but hundreds of thousands of people became

refugees as a result of this post-partition war.

A. Some forced, some voluntary, yes.

Q. Okay. And I take it you also know that once -- that the

people who left their land, the refugees, the Palestinians,

they left everything. They left their houses, they left their

belongings, and they just fled, right?

A. I presume.

Q. Okay. And you also, do you know that the Israelis then

destroyed over 500 of those villages, tore down the houses,

destroyed the villages and took over that land, correct?

A. I -- I don't know, but I -- I'm not sure how I'm qualified

to answer that question. Numbers of villages, villages that

were destroyed, villages that were occupied, villages that

were abandoned, villages that were destroyed. All this

happened.

I can't speak to it just because I've read some books

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on it with any greater authority than you can.

Q. Are you saying that because you weren't there and didn't

personally experience it and you just read it in books you're

not an authority on it?

A. If I wanted to be an authority on it, I'd conduct field

research. I'd interview people. I'd also read books and

journals, and I'd spend much more time and effort researching

it, as I have on the areas that I have been qualified as an

expert, and this I haven't.

Q. You don't think it's relevant when you're an expert on

Palestinian terrorist groups to have some kind of

understanding of what preceded the creation or the emergence

of those groups?

A. Between having an understanding and being an expert,

there's a world of difference.

Q. Okay.

A. I have a very strong understanding, but I'm not going to

tell you that I'm an expert in something other than what I've

trained myself to be.

Q. Well, do you have a general understanding of the fact that

when the Palestinians fled their homes, the Israelis came in

and destroyed a lot of villages, took all the land?

A. I have read that it happened. I can't speak to how much,

how little, how much actually was destroyed, how much was

simply occupied, whether those people were forced to leave,

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they volunteered to leave.

I've never done any scholarly research into the 1948

war or the '47 armistice.

Q. Now, would you agree with me that the land that the

Israelis conquered in their war of independence was land that

was never given to them by the United Nations? It was never

part of the State -- original part of the State of Israel?

A. Again, original part of the State of Israel is a

misleading statement since the UN partitioned British mandate

Palestine. The Israelis accepted the partition. The Arab

states and Palestinian leadership did not.

So it's not clear that it officially took effect. It

takes both sides to agree to a partition.

Q. So what you're saying is the fact that the Palestinians

didn't accept it allowed the Israelis to take as much land as

they could by conquering it?

A. No, that's what you're saying.

Q. Well, I'm asking you if you disagree with that.

A. I'm saying that there was an attempt to have peaceable

division of the land. That attempt failed because both sides

didn't accept it and one side in particular.

Q. Both sides didn't accept it.

A. No. One side accepted it. It takes both sides to accept

it. One side accepted it, one side did not. That led to

war --

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Q. Okay.

A. -- an invasion of Arab armies. If you wanted to know what

Israel's independence from, you'd have to ask an Israeli. I'm

not Israeli, but I imagine they feel they got independence

from the Arab armies who went to war with them, but that's

just my supposition.

Q. So what you're saying is that when the partition wasn't

accepted, that gave a green light to the Israel or the Jewish

state to conquer as much land as possible?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection. Argumentative and --

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm asking him.

MR. FERGUSON: -- this is repeatedly and

fundamentally beyond the scope of what this witness has

repeatedly said his field of expertise is and what he has

testified to.

THE COURT: Sustained. We're way beyond his

expertise.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Now, when they partitioned the land, the United Nations,

it was for the Palestinians to have a state, too, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And after this war of independence, Israel made an

agreement with Jordan and Egypt to give Egypt the Gaza Strip

and Jordan the West Bank, right?

A. I don't know how much of an -- excuse me -- agreement it

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was. I don't remember the history of how it happened. But I

think it was as much a fact of that there were Jordanian and

Egyptian forces on the ground at the time. I don't know that

it was Israel that gave it to them, but the fact is that right

after the 1948 war, Gaza was under Egyptian military

occupation, and the West Bank was under Jordanian.

Q. Palestinians didn't get a state, correct?

A. That's right.

Q. Okay. Now, there was another war in 1967, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And that's when that more or less 22 percent of the yellow

on the map on the right was occupied by the Israeli army,

correct?

A. Correct. Talking about these two portions here.

Q. And that land that they occupied in 1967, the Israeli

army, that was never part of the Israeli state, right?

A. Again, you'd have to ask -- there's Israelis who say it

was, there's Israelis who say it wasn't. I'm not an

international legal expert.

Q. There's Israelis that want the whole British mandate for

themselves, right? They want all the Arabs out, right?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection. Argumentative, beyond the

scope, relevance.

THE COURT: Sustained. And form.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

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Q. Okay. Also, as part of the -- prior to 1967, the city of

Jerusalem was divided between the Jordanian east side and the

Israeli west side, correct?

A. By barbed wire.

Q. Yeah. And in 1967, when Israeli occupied the West Bank

and Gaza Strip, they also took over the city of Jerusalem,

correct?

A. They -- they -- they did. They removed the barriers.

There was still the Arab side to Jerusalem.

There are basically two segregated sides to

Jerusalem. After '67, both sides came under Israeli

authority.

Q. It's kind of even -- it's different than the occupied

territories of the Gaza and the West Bank. Those are

occupied. But Jerusalem was basically brought in under the

sovereignty of Israel, right, after 1967?

A. The Palestinians would say that they're occupied as much

in East Jerusalem as they were until recently in Gaza and the

West Bank. Israel annexed East Jerusalem, Palestinian part of

Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights in the way north into Israel.

They didn't expel the Arabs. There still is today the Arab

half of Jerusalem, but from an Israeli perspective, that is

what they call a unified city under Israeli sovereignty.

Q. Okay. So the answer to the question is yes, they did take

the sovereignty of Jerusalem as a spoil of the 1967 war. Yes?

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A. You're throwing in all kinds of loaded words like spoil,

but, yes, I think my answer is pretty clear.

Q. Okay. Now, after 20 years of occupation, there was an

Intifada, and you testified about that last week, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And I think you described it as a grass roots, nonviolent

uprising in response to 20 years of occupation in settlement

policies. Is that fair?

A. That would be an accurate description.

Q. Okay. And it was demonstrations, correct? Mass people

out demonstrating?

A. It was demonstrations. There was refusal to pay taxes.

It wasn't 100 percent nonviolent. There was stone throwing.

There was some shooting attacks. It was nothing like the

second Intifada that we saw start in September 2000.

Q. And there were work strikes?

A. Work strikes, yes.

Q. And people closing roads. It was kind of a mass uprising,

right?

A. It was.

Q. Okay. And would you say that it was triggered by the

suffering and frustration of the Israeli occupation and

settlement policy?

A. I think the way I put it last week largely parallels that

by describing it as a combination of precipitance and

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preconditions, so, yes.

Q. Okay. And by the way, in 1967 after the war and the

occupation, there was a process that began of Israel sending

Jewish people into the occupied territories to settle there,

isn't that right?

A. That's right.

Q. Okay. And those people are generally known as Israeli

settlers, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And these people built settlements in the territories that

was occupied in the West Bank and Gaza, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And by 1987, 20 years later, there was almost 100,000 of

those settlers living in that occupied territories, right?

A. I don't know the number, but there was a significant

settler presence.

Q. Right. And, of course, you told us that the settlement

was one of the aggravating factors to the -- causing the

Intifada, the occupation and the settlements, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And just so the jury gets an idea, you have written

about the incredible economic hardships of living under

occupation, haven't you?

A. I have.

Q. Okay. And I think you said that at one point, 75 percent

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of the families living in the occupied territories were living

on $2 a day or less, right?

A. I'd have to see it in front of me to verify all the

numbers, but that sounds right, and I don't know what the time

frame is either.

Q. Okay. Do you want to see your book and look at what you

said or --

A. If you want me to verify something I said in the book,

sure.

Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you a few other questions, and

then I'll show you your book.

A. Sure.

Q. Unemployment was incredibly high, over 30 percent?

A. It varied over this period of time, but at some points it

was at least that.

Q. And there was a problem with chronic malnutrition of

children. 30 percent of the children suffered from

malnutrition?

A. Especially in Gaza. Again, the numbers I'd have to

verify.

Q. Okay. And there was a high infant mortality rate, much

higher than in our country, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Probably seven or eight times higher?

A. Again, I don't know, but it was terrible.

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Q. Uh-huh.

A. And probably still is.

Q. And is it fair to say that as a result of the economic,

social and health conditions in the occupied territory, life

there was truly miserable?

A. Yeah, it sounds familiar.

Q. Yeah, it does.

And is it also fair to say that clearly the vast

majority of Palestinian people were in desperate need of

assistance from unemployment compensation to food, child care

and access to proper medical care?

A. Yes, and that's primarily what the UN does.

Q. Yeah. And a deplorable standard of living for those

people?

A. Yeah, again, it varies, but there certainly is -- I mean

for the vast majority it is deplorable. On the flip side, you

have Palestinians who live in luxury.

Q. Okay. And is it also fair to say that the Israeli

government has consistently failed to provide essential

services to the Palestinian people?

A. As the occupying entity, yes.

Q. And they have -- if they're an occupying force, they have

that responsibility under the Geneva convention, don't they?

A. I believe that's accurate. Certainly they failed to do

so.

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Q. Okay. And the refugee camps. You've been to a refugee

camp, right?

A. I have.

Q. After 1997, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And I think you described them as very sad, very

horrible, right?

A. Yes.

Q. People living in squalor, right?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, Gaza, the camps in Gaza has the world's highest

density population, right?

A. Gaza overall has the highest density population.

Q. And would you agree with me that there's a dire need for

social services for those people living under occupation?

A. Clearly.

Q. And, in fact, just looking at it in 1987, when the

Intifada began, that if there weren't the charitable

activities in the occupied territories by different groups,

people could die of starvation, is that fair?

A. The role that the international community played was

critical in preventing that starvation.

Q. Well, also not only the international community, but there

were groups on the ground that were providing charitable

social welfare assistance, correct?

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A. Compared to the level of assistance provided by the

international groups, it was a pittance; but, yes, there are a

great many groups on the ground providing estimated in the

tens of millions of dollars compared to I believe it's over a

billion dollars, one point something billion dollars that the

various UN agencies --

Q. Right. The United Nations was providing a great amount of

food and housing for the people living in the refugee camps,

right?

A. Was and is.

Q. Yeah, but you're saying tens of millions of dollars were

being provided in services for the people -- by the people on

the ground, the people running these charitable groups, right?

A. Tens of millions of dollars went through these various

groups. Not all of that necessarily went to charity work.

Q. Let me ask you this: Have you ever heard the fact that

the potential of starvation was so bad that when people went

to visit their loved ones who were in prison, the prisoners

actually smuggled food out to give to their family members?

Have you ever heard that?

A. I haven't heard that.

Q. Now, do you know Benny Morris, who Benny Morris is?

A. I know of him. I don't know him.

Q. And you know he is a very respected Israeli historian,

correct?

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A. He's respected and he's equally contentious. There's many

people who would describe him as respected as those who would

say he's very much the opposite.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you this if you agree with this

statement by Benny Morris: "Israelis like to believe and tell

the world that they were running an enlightened or benign

occupation, qualitatively different from other military

occupations the world had seen. The truth was radically

different. Like all occupations, Israeli's was founded on

brute force, repression and fear, collaboration and treachery,

beatings and torture chambers and daily intimidation,

humiliation and manipulation."

Would you agree with that?

A. Again, I'm not sure I'm expert to get into all that

detail, especially since it would involve, as it's stated,

being able to compare it to other occupations.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, why are we publishing this? I

object.

MR. DEUTSCH: I want him to --

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch, if you want him to see it,

you can show it to him. This exhibit or document you're

putting up on the overhead has not been admitted into evidence

or moved to be used as a demonstrative, so it's not proper to

show it.

MR. DEUTSCH: All right. I'd like to move to use it

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as a demonstrative so he can look at it and respond to my

questioning.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge --

MR. DEUTSCH: And the jury can see it, too. I mean I

read it, they could hear it, but if they see it, then they're

able to --

THE COURT: There are rules about what they can and

can't see.

Yes, Mr. Ferguson.

MR. FERGUSON: He read it. They heard it. The

witness is responding to it, and the only thing it's

demonstrative of is Benny Morris's particular view in that

particular publication, which has no relevance here.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Okay. I'm sorry, you were answering my question whether

you agree with what Benny Morris, the historian, said about

the occupation.

A. I think my statement that it's beyond my expertise and is

Benny Morris's opinion is best said.

Q. Is what?

A. Is the best way to put it. You can call Benny Morris. He

can tell you better.

Q. Okay. So you're not an expert on the occupation, right?

A. Correct.

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Q. You're not an expert on the history of the division of the

land, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. But would you agree that as a result of the

Intifada, this grass roots uprising, things got a lot worse

for the people in the occupied territories?

A. I honestly can't say because I haven't read comparative

studies. Israeli forces would sometimes respond especially to

rock throwing, et cetera. I don't know how the quality of

life changed specifically then.

Q. Well, let me ask you this: As a result of the Intifada,

were there sustained closures of the check points between the

occupied territories and Israel?

A. I would say no. There were sustained closures because

there were terrorist attacks the Israelis were trying to

thwart.

Q. Wait a second.

A. I don't know of evidence that the closures at check points

were necessarily part of the occupation strategy.

Q. In -- what period of time did the first Intifada last,

1987 till about 1992?

A. 1992, yes, '93.

Q. Okay. And these -- you did tell the jury that this was a

mostly nonviolent uprising, right?

A. Compared to the second one --

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Q. Yes.

A. -- certainly.

Q. Yes.

A. But there was plenty of violence there, too.

Q. Yeah. And are you saying that they closed the check

points as a result of -- in order to prevent people from going

into Israel from the occupied territories? Is that fair to

say?

A. I think that would be part of it.

Q. Yeah.

A. But you're asking a question about why and when the

Israelis did. You're best calling an Israeli.

Q. Okay. But you would agree with me that a great majority

of the Palestinian people, whether they were protesting or

not, were actually -- worked, made their livelihood by going

into Israel, correct, to work?

A. Correct. As whether the occupation was benign or not, one

thing the Israelis did do in an effort to try and maintain the

fledgling Palestinian economy is to allow Palestinian workers

into Israel proper to work there.

Q. Rather than helping their own economy build up in the

occupied territories, they let them go and work for -- be the

maids and the lowest level workers in Israel, right?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection to form.

THE COURT: Sustained.

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BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. But it's fair to say, regardless of why they closed --

they did close those check points as a result of the Intifada,

right?

A. They were open. They were closed. There were check

points that --

Q. It cut down quite a bit on the people's ability to work in

Israel and earn a living, right?

A. When those closures happened, yes.

Q. Okay. And it's closed as to people regardless of whether

they were involved in the acts of the Intifada. It's kind of

a collective punishment, right?

A. One could also say that because the activities of groups

like Hamas are covert and they don't wear uniforms or carry

I.D.s saying they're Hamas, therefore, the Israelis couldn't

identify who they had to stop or not. In balance, in trying

to prevent attacks against civilians and trying to maintain a

level of existence for Palestinians, this is what they did.

I'm not saying it was good. This was just what it was.

Q. Well, you agree with me that imposes a collective

punishment on a large population in response to the crimes of

a few?

A. Unfortunately, yes.

Q. Okay. And I want to be clear because the Intifada started

in 1987. According to your chart, Hamas began around that

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time, and there was no -- the first -- according to your

chart, the first suicide bombing attack against a civilian of

that nature began in March or April of '93, right?

A. The first successful attack of that nature was in the

spring of '93 --

Q. Okay.

A. -- of a suicide nature.

Q. Okay. So I take it they weren't closing the check points

and preventing the people from going to work between 1987 and

January of 1993 because of suicide bombings because there

hadn't been any, correct?

A. There were other attacks, and I also don't know how

extensive and regular those closures were.

My assumption would be that they became a much larger

issue much later in the process --

Q. Okay.

A. -- in the time line.

Q. In addition to the closing of the check points, as part of

the Intifada, and I'm talking about a period from '87 to '92

more or less, okay?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. There were also curfews imposed on the people who lived in

the occupied territories, right?

A. Again, I know there have been curfews. I don't know how

much or how few in that particular period of time; but there

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were, as Israeli authorities tried to calm tensions on the

street and prevent violence.

Q. Okay. And that's also a form of collective punishment.

Curfew means nobody can go out of their house for periods of

time, right?

A. First of all, there's water if you'd like.

Q. Okay, thank you.

A. That's what curfews mean, yes.

Q. Okay. And these are not curfews that necessarily last one

day. They could last 30 days or 60 days, right?

A. I honestly don't know. That would strike me as irregular

at best. I don't know.

Q. And, of course, there were a lot of arrests during the

Intifada, right?

A. I would assume so, but, again, I don't know.

Q. You're not an expert on the Intifada.

A. I don't have at my fingertips the kind of data that you're

hoping I can have.

Q. Well, I'm not asking you for any specifics. I asked you

if there were a lot of arrests.

A. I assume there were. I don't know.

Q. Okay. Thousands of arrests every year, right?

A. That's possible. Given activities on the ground, it's

probably likely.

Q. And, of course, you said that there was people throwing

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stones at the soldiers and at their tanks, right?

A. There were stone throwers and tax evaders and all kinds of

protests.

Q. Okay. And several hundred children were killed by the

soldiers, weren't they, during the Intifada?

A. Again, I don't know the numbers, but one of the great

tragedies is that not just children, certainly plenty of

children, but all kinds of civilians were killed, some in what

might be perceived as more legitimate fighting and many more

in just Israeli efforts to quell stone throwing and other, you

know, tragedies.

Q. Well, I mean, what would be a legitimate fight between an

Israeli tank and somebody who was unarmed?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection to form.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. And also there were the beginnings of house demolitions,

right? If the Israeli military thought that you were a leader

or involved in the Intifada, they could come and take a

bulldozer and knock your house down, correct?

A. I don't know when it started, but the Israelis did do

that. They would get some type of Israeli court approval for

it, but that's what they did.

Q. And are you familiar with in May of 1987, the killing of

seven Palestinian laborers in Rishon LeZion by an Israeli

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reservist soldier?

A. Not specifically, no.

Q. But you know there were acts of killing unarmed civilians

in retaliation for the nonviolent demonstrations, right?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I'm going to object. It

precedes the time at issue in the indictment, and I just don't

see how it's relevant.

THE COURT: Sustained, and he said he wasn't aware.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. And I think you agreed with me, not as to the exact

number, but by 1987, there were merely a hundred thousand

settlers living in those territories, right?

A. Many settlers.

Q. Many settlers.

A. I don't know the number.

Q. And those settlers kind of had their own land, right?

A. The settlers would purchase land and establish a

settlement, usually put a fence around it, prevent intruders,

and they would occupy that land.

Q. They had their own roads, too, right?

A. Actually, I think their own roads started later, much

later, but eventually they did.

Q. Okay.

A. Mostly used bypass roads so they wouldn't be driving

through Palestinian towns and villages.

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Q. And, in fact, the settlers refer to these areas not as

Palestinian occupied territory or territories. They had names

for them. Judea and Samaria, right?

A. Judea and Samaria are the Biblical names for those areas,

so they're not necessarily settler terms. Because some, there

are all kinds of settlers there, some who are extreme, some

who are not, but those settlers who felt that there was, from

a Jewish perspective, a Biblical injunction to settle all of

what they perceived as holy land. There are Jews who see it

all as holy land like there are Islamists that see it all

as holy land. They often refer to it by its Biblical title.

Q. You know who Abba Eban was, right?

A. He was an Israeli foreign minister.

Q. And he was a member of the Israeli legislature called the

Knesset, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Respected member of Israeli society?

A. He was a major political dovish figure.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you if you agree with how he described

the relationship between the settlers and the Palestinian

people: "In the areas of Judea and Samaria, which are, he

says, Israel's appellations for the West Bank and Gaza, today

there are 1.3 million Arabs and less than 50 Israeli settlers.

The Arabs cannot vote or be elected at any level, have no

degree of juridical control over the government that

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determines the conditions of their existence, have no rights

or appeal against the judgments of the military courts, and

are not free to leave their land with assurance of a right to

return, are not immune from judgments of expulsion from their

birth place and homeland" --

MR. FERGUSON: I'm going to object, irrelevance,

compound. This is just -- this is speechifying through

reading a very lengthy quote. If he has a particular question

on a particular subject, let him ask it.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I'm asking him about what the

prime minister -- the foreign minister of Israel said about

the issue of the settlers which directly relates to the issues

in this case.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, he's giving a speech of --

MR. DEUTSCH: I'll just put it up on the --

THE COURT: No, you won't. No, you won't.

Objection sustained. If you want to break down your

question --

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: -- go ahead, or if you want to ask the

witness to read it to himself and see if he agrees, you can do

that.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, let me ask you this: Would you agree that the Jews

who live as settlers have totally different rights and

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immunities than the Palestinian people?

A. To the Jews who live in the West Bank -- at the time,

Gaza, too -- have different rights than Palestinians, I

believe so --

MR. FERGUSON: Judge --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- but again, that's a legal issue. I --

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Would you agree --

MR. FERGUSON: I just would like a time frame for all

of this. There have been many changes and evolutions in all

of this.

THE COURT: Sustained. Clarify a time frame.

MR. DEUTSCH: 1987, the beginning of the Intifada.

This is what he said at the beginning of the Intifada about

the relationship between the people, the indigenous people in

the occupied territories and the people who are settlers.

I'll ask you just one more question without reading

it.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Would you agree that there is a society in the West Bank

and Gaza in which a man's rights are defined not by his

conduct or by any egalitarian principle but by his ethnic

identity?

A. No, I wouldn't. I think it had more to do with national

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

404

identity, and I'm not saying I agreed with it, but the point

was that by virtue of those Palestinians not taking Israeli

citizenship, they didn't have full Israeli rights. Many

Palestinians did take Israeli citizenship.

I'm not saying that they should have. This is the

nature of occupation, and I'm not saying occupation is good;

but it had less to do with an ethnic issue and more to do with

a nationalist conflict.

Q. Well, the people who lived in the occupied territories,

the ones that lived in the refugee camps, they didn't have a

right to take Israeli citizenship, did they?

A. Not the ones who lived in camps, no.

Q. No, right? In fact, if you're a Jewish person anywhere in

the world, you have a right to go and live in Israel and

become a citizen, right?

A. Yes.

Q. It's called the right of return, right?

A. Correct.

Q. The Palestinian people don't have a right even to return

to their own little 22 percent land under the occupied

territories, right?

A. If there were to be a Palestinian state and especially in

the context of a two-state solution, they would. Currently --

Q. But they don't -- they didn't in 1992, did they?

A. As a non-sovereign entity, they did not.

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405

Q. So -- and if they left the occupied territories to go

somewhere to visit a relative, they might not be allowed to

come back, right?

A. That's right.

Q. And who decided whether they could come back to their land

in the occupied territories? Whose decision would it have

been?

A. That would have been the Israeli authority's decision.

Q. Now, there is an ideology. You talked quite a bit last

week about the charter and you read from the Hamas charter and

quoted at length some ideology that was in the charter,

correct?

A. That's right.

Q. All right. And it was referred to as some ideology that

the land belongs to the Palestinian people, right? All the

land. They want all the land, right?

A. That's --

Q. That was the thrust of your reading that charter, correct?

A. It's not my thrust. It's what the charter says. That's

Hamas's position.

Q. Right. You were presenting it, you and Mr. Ferguson were

presenting it back and forth, right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. There is an ideology among the Jewish people, too,

that all the land, that whole mandate, British mandate,

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406

belongs to them, right?

A. There is.

Q. And, in fact, the idea is that God gave them that land,

and they have the right to have that land for themself,

correct?

A. There are some who believe that way.

Q. Yeah. And, of course, there is an ideology that the

Jewish people are the chosen people by God, right?

A. There are some who believe that, too.

Q. Yeah. And do you know what the word Amekelites mean?

A-M-E-K-E-L-I-T-I-S -- T-E-S.

A. I think what you're trying to read to me is from the root

of Amalek, which is kind of in Jewish ancient history the

quintessential enemy of the Jewish people.

Q. And Arabs are often called that, right?

A. Jewish extremists have all kinds of nasty names for Arabs

as Arab extremists do for Jews. It's ugly on both sides.

Q. All right. And you're talking about Jewish extremists,

right? But there is actually a political party in Israel at

least in 1991 and 1992 called the Moledet party,

M-O-L-E-D-E-T, correct?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I'm going to object to

relevance on all of this.

MR. DEUTSCH: It's directly relevant.

MR. FERGUSON: The fact that there's --

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407

MR. DEUTSCH: I want --

MR. FERGUSON: The fact that there's some extremists

on the other side does not countenance, forgive, justify the

terrorist issues that are -- the terrorist activities that are

at issue here.

MR. DEUTSCH: This is not about extremists on the

other side. This is about people who are part of the Israel

government, the Israel legislature. And I would point out

that the term Judea and Samaria, which is the term that these

people use, is the same term that the GSS, the Shaba'k used.

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch, but you are asking

Dr. Levitt this who's been qualified as an expert in Hamas

terrorist acts.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, do want me to --

MR. FERGUSON: Can we do this at side bar?

THE COURT: We can do it at side bar.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you need to stand up and

stretch, go ahead.

(Proceedings heard at side bar:)

MR. DEUTSCH: I think it's unfair to have a witness

come on the stand and say I'm an expert on terrorist groups

and Hamas, but anything else I don't have any expertise on.

This directly involved whether or not this Hamas is

in fact a terrorist group, whether --

THE COURT: How does the Israeli political party,

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408

extremist political party in 1991 relate to it?

MR. DEUTSCH: Because -- here's how it relates.

Mr. Salah is charged, among other things, with bringing

money --

THE COURT: Right.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- in 1992 and early 1993, and I'm

going to bring out from this witness at that particular time

there was extremist settlement groups that were attacking

Palestinians and as a result of that, the Palestinians were

suffering greatly and had great need for the funds that he was

bringing.

It's part of the Intifada, and that I want to bring

out -- they were allowed to bring out this whole very

prejudicial thing about the charter and how Hamas believes

that they're entitled to all the land there and that the Jews

are bad, et cetera, and I think that I'm entitled to show

that, in fact, there are people on the other side that are

doing the very same thing and that, in fact, this is one of

the reasons why the Palestinians have suffered so much and why

they, in fact, need the economic aid that Mr. Salah brought.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, this is really in the form of

selective prosecution. Who's on trial here right now are

defendants charged with conspiring to facilitate Hamas, a

designated terrorist organization, but a group engaged in

terrorist acts regardless of whether it was designated or not

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

409

at any particular time.

Whether or not there are extremist groups out there

does not in any way constitute a defense or justification for

the provision of support for military activities by a

non-governmental entity such as Hamas here. This is simply an

attempt to introduce the notion that there are extremists that

are not being brought before the bar here by the government --

MR. DEUTSCH: No.

MR. FERGUSON: -- in this particular action, and

there has been a long line of cross-examination that we did

not object to in which Mr. Levitt has discussed the social

situation, the economic situation, various aspects of life in

Palestinian society coming at the time of the Intifada and

then during the Intifada and moving forward that all seem to

constitute the relevant justification for what really has been

stated as the defense here, which is the movement of money was

simply to support charity and social services.

What an extremist Jewish group's ideology has to do

with any of that is completely beyond me.

MR. DEUTSCH: He's testified on direct about Baruch

Goldstein going into a mosque and shooting down unarmed Muslim

prayers, and then he says that as a result of that, there were

these bombings, okay?

I think I'm entitled to probe from him the situation

that was existing on the ground when Mr. Salah decided he was

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

410

going to go there with that money or help bring that money,

and for the jury to understand it. It's not just about what

the Israelis were doing. The settlers were part of the

Israeli state.

THE COURT: If you want to bring out the conditions,

because I know that's your defense and that Mr. Salah was

bringing money in to -- for the refugees for the conditions,

that's fine and I've let you go into that, but we're not going

into political parties who are extremists and that's, A, going

beyond this witness's expertise, and, B, not appropriately

brought out here.

So I'm sustaining the objection to the last question.

Again, you can go into with him, to the extent he can answer,

the social conditions that Mr. -- you are claiming Mr. Salah

was bringing money to, but you've gone beyond that.

Objection sustained.

(Proceedings heard in open court:)

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch, just for planning purposes,

you have about 15 more minutes for this evening before we pick

up tomorrow.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. Thank you.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. You testified I think today and I'm sure last week maybe

about a situation in which about 450 accused or believed

militants were expelled from their country and put into some

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

411

mountain camp in Lebanon, right?

A. 400 --

Q. Yes or no?

A. 415.

Q. 415, okay.

A. Yes.

Q. And am I correct in saying that they were just summarily

arrested and taken out of their country and put in another

country? Is that a fair description of what happened?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. They didn't have a trial, right?

A. Correct.

Q. No one said you did X, Y and Z and we're going to decide

whether you're guilty or not, right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And there was a concern even before that that there

was some kind of effort to expel Palestinian people from their

own land, correct?

Among the Palestinian people, there was a concern

that there was going to be some ethnic cleansing, where people

would be moved out of their own territory.

MR. FERGUSON: I'm going to object as to vagueness,

foundation, time frame.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

412

Q. Well, at the time that these deportations happened or

expulsions.

By the way, there was no judicial process by which

these people were taken away from their families and put in

another country, right?

A. I don't know if there was some excuse for a judicial

process. I don't know how the Israelis decided or selected

individuals, but for the purposes of Western standards, there

was not, and the U.S. Government condemned it.

Q. Okay. That's right. The U.S. Government condemned it and

the United Nations condemned it, right?

A. Yeah, I believe so.

Q. And was there not a -- beyond the people and families of

the people who suffered as a result of it, was there not a

concern expressed by Palestinian people that this was a

prelude to mass expulsion of people from their land?

A. I hadn't heard that.

Q. Okay. You do know that there were people, Israeli people

that advocated that, right?

A. There's an extreme fringe that advocates that, but I don't

know that there was any type of mainstream voice for that.

Q. Well, would you consider the Likud party an extreme

fringe?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I'm going to object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

413

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, have you ever heard of the term engineered

immigration?

A. No.

Q. Do you know of a man by the name of Rechavam Ze'evi,

member of the Knesset, member of the ministerial committee on

defense and security?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection.

THE COURT: The question is do you know a man by that

name.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Not personally.

A. I think you're referring to Rechavam Ze'evi.

Q. Yeah.

A. I've heard of him. I don't know him.

Q. Okay. And he openly advocates expelling --

MR. FERGUSON: Objection.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. -- all Palestinians from the occupied territory.

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. The people that were deported, the 415, there were other

people that were also arrested at that time and put in prison,

right?

A. I believe so.

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

414

Q. About 1,600 more people, right?

A. I don't know.

Q. They didn't have charges or trials. They were just

rounded up and arrested, right, as far as you know?

A. I -- it's not as far as I know. I don't know.

Q. Okay. Did you know that at least 25 percent of the people

who were deported or expelled from their country were faculty

and students at Palestinian universities?

A. I did not.

Q. Now, at the time of -- in the '91, '92, do you know how

much of the land of the West Bank was controlled by the

settlers?

A. No.

Q. It's true, is it not, that a lot of these settlers are

armed with machine guns, correct?

A. I've seen settlers with pistols for defensive purposes.

I've seen -- there's plenty of Israeli army presence, and they

will have other weapons.

Q. Well, everybody -- every Jewish person who is a citizen of

the State of Israel has to serve in the army, correct?

A. Almost without exception.

Q. And then you become a reservist. After your term of duty,

you become a reservist, correct?

MR. FERGUSON: Objection, relevance.

THE COURT: Sustained.

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

415

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. You visit -- I take it you have visited the settlements in

the West Bank, right?

A. I have.

Q. And you have seen that they have swimming pools, correct?

A. I actually haven't seen the swimming pools, but I've heard

that there are some that do, yes.

Q. And some of them have villas on hills. They're very nice,

aren't they?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, objection, relevance.

MR. DEUTSCH: Again, Judge, it goes to what was going

on at the time that Mr. Salah brought that money.

THE COURT: Objection to the swimming pool question

is sustained.

If you can tie it back up consistent with what I

said, go ahead --

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: -- but you're not there.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. The people that are the settlers -- not all of them, but a

certain percentage of them are very hostile to the

Palestinians, correct?

A. There are some, yes.

Q. They -- they call them all kinds of derogatory names,

right?

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

416

A. Like I said, there's horrible name calling on both sides.

Q. Okay. And the settlers, though, they're kind of --

they're protected by the Israeli army, right?

A. To one extent or another, yes.

Q. And they have tremendous security around their

settlements, right?

A. Again, tremendous, I don't know. It varies.

Those settlements that have been attacked in

terrorist attacks tend to have more security. Those that are

deeper into the West Bank tend to have more security. It

varies.

Q. And if you know, the settlers are actually encouraged by

the Israeli government to go and settle in the Palestinian

lands, right?

A. There have been times in Israeli history where there have

been administrations that have pushed that, and there have

been other times where there have been administrations who not

only opposed it but withdrew settlements.

Q. All right. Well, what about in '91, '92, were they -- or

'87 to '92, were they encouraging people to go and settle in

that territory?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, objection, relevance.

THE COURT: Sustained, and vague.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Okay. And the natural resources of the land, the water,

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

417

is disproportionately used by the settlers as compared to the

Palestinians, right?

A. In some cases, yes.

There have been other cases where settlements have

been delayed opening or not opened because water was reserved

for Palestinians, but there's no question that there is a

severe water shortage, and it's an important part of the

conflict.

Q. You're familiar with Maron Benvenisti?

A. No.

Q. Never heard of him?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Well, would you agree or disagree with his statement:

"The total amount of water planned for allocation in

the Arab sector, agriculture and domestic consumption, at the

end of the decade of 1980 is 137 million cubic meters --

MR. FERGUSON: Objection, time frame, relevance.

THE COURT: Sustained, and he doesn't know him.

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm asking him if he agrees with his

statement. He's saying that --

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- the settlers use all the water.

THE COURT: Ask your next question.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Okay. Now, are the settlements basically placed in areas

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

418

to prevent a contiguous Palestinian state developing?

A. There's debate about that.

It's more accurate that settlements were originally

strategically placed in defensive measures after the wars on

the Jordan ridge, for example, around Jerusalem to solidify

Israel's claim to Jerusalem.

Sometimes settlements were just put in certain places

because that's where the Israelis who were moving to settle

that area could find the land that some Palestinian would sell

them. So it varied.

Q. Are you familiar with Naomi Chasen, deputy speaker of the

Israeli Knesset?

A. No.

Q. Never heard of her?

A. No.

Q. Would you disagree with her statement that settlements

were purposely placed in areas that would separate Palestinian

population clusters --

MR. FERGUSON: Objection to form.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. -- denying the possibility of Palestinian integrity?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Would you agree that because a lot of the settlers are

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Levitt - cross by Deutsch

419

reservists in the army -- well, strike that.

Do the people who are reservists in the army have a

right to carry their weapons?

A. My understanding is that they are not allowed to carry

their weapons when they're not on duty.

But Israelis, like Americans here, can get permits to

carry weapons. Not their, but official issue. At least

that's what I've observed. I'm really not an expert on this.

Q. Okay. And in your observations, have you observed a lot

of settlers, armed settlers?

A. I've seen settlers with side arms.

I don't -- I've never tallied, but I've actually

commented in the past that I was surprised there were as few,

that I observed as few as I did, given how much people talk

about how settlers are armed.

Q. Well, would you agree that there's -- the line between a

civilian and a settler is a blurred one?

A. No.

Q. You wouldn't agree.

A. No.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. Judge, this is actually a good

time to break.

THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, we are done

for the evening. 9:15 tomorrow morning. We're back on our

regular schedule.

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420

9:15, meet on the second floor where you've been

meeting, and please do not discuss the case, and don't watch

any media coverage. Thank you. Have a good evening.

(Jury exits courtroom.)

THE COURT: Dr. Levitt, you may step down. Two

things before you do.

First of all, please be back here tomorrow morning by

9:15. You have been tendered for cross-examination, so you

may not discuss your testimony with any of the prosecutors.

Have a good evening.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: With respect to everybody else, please be

here by 9:15 tomorrow morning.

If Ms. Thompson could be here, I would like to take

up at that point the jury instruction on CIPA material.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: How much longer roughly do you think you

have, ballpark? One hour or six hours?

MR. DEUTSCH: Two hours, two or three hours.

THE COURT: Okay. Then, Mr. Moffitt, you will go.

My guess is Dr. Levitt will be on the stand a chunk

of tomorrow, if not all of it. And then the translators are

next.

MR. FERGUSON: Yes, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay. How many of them?

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421

MS. HAMILTON: Three after a stipulation.

THE COURT: Okay. My guess is that will take us

through most of tomorrow. Have a good evening. I'll see you

at 9:15.

MR. BLOOM: If we finish with them tomorrow, could we

be notified as to who the next witness will be after that?

MR. FERGUSON: We'll let the defense know.

THE COURT: Okay. I'll see you tomorrow.

CERTIFICATE

I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from

the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

Joseph Rickhoff Date

Official Court Reporter

Kathleen M. Fennell Date

Official Court Reporter

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