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67

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

EASTERN DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Docket No. 03 CR 978

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. )

)

MUHAMMAD HAMID KHALIL SALAH AND )

ABDELHALEEM HASAN ABDELRAZIQ ASHQAR, ) Chicago, Illinois

) October 20, 2006

Defendants. ) 8:45 o'clock a.m.

VOLUME FIVE

TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE AMY J. ST. EVE, AND A JURY

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff: HON. PATRICK J. FITZGERALD

United States Attorney

BY: MR. JOSEPH M. FERGUSON

MR. REID J. SCHAR

MS. CARRIE E. HAMILTON

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 500

Chicago, Illinois 60604

For Deft. Salah: PEOPLE'S LAW OFFICES

BY: MR. MICHAEL EDWARD DEUTSCH

MS. ERICA THOMPSON

1180 North Milwaukee Avenue

Chicago, Illinois 60622

LAW OFFICE OF ROBERT BLOOM

BY: MR. ROBERT JAY BLOOM

3355 Richmond Boulevard

Oakland, California 94611

For Deft. Ashqar: MR. KEITH ALLAN SPIELFOGEL

20 North Clark Street, Suite 1200

Chicago, Illinois 60602

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68

APPEARANCES (Cont'd):

For Deft. Ashqar (Cont'd): MR. WILLIAM MOFFITT

11582 Greenwich Point Road

Reston, Virginia 20194

Also Present: S/A BRADLEY BENAVIDES, FBI

S/A JILL PETTORELLI, FBI

Court Reporter: MR. JOSEPH RICKHOFF

Official Court Reporter

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 1232

Chicago, Illinois 60604

(312) 435-5562

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PROCEEDINGS RECORDED BY

MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY

TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER

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69

THE CLERK: 03 CR 978, USA vs. Muhammad Salah,

Abdelhaleem Ashqar. Jury trial continues.

MR. FERGUSON: Good morning, Judge, Joe Ferguson,

Reid Schar and Carrie Hamilton for the government.

THE COURT: Good morning.

MR. DEUTSCH: Michael Deutsch, Robert Bloom and Erica

Thompson for Mr. Salah who is not here yet. I assume he will

be here any minute.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: Keith Spielfogel and William Moffitt on

behalf of Dr. Ashqar. And he is here. He just went outside

for a second.

THE COURT: Good morning.

It is quarter till. I know we have some jurors here.

I am not sure if they are all here yet.

Is there anything I need to take up before?

Do you have a revised chart for me, Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: I do, Judge.

THE COURT: Anything I need to take up before?

I do note your screen -- now that we are on the

record, your screen -- is on your table, Mr. Moffitt.

MR. FERGUSON: And, Judge, I just want to confirm

that we will end at 12:30 today.

THE COURT: Yes, we will end by 12:30.

MR. FERGUSON: All right.

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70

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, will the government be willing

to tell us whether they're going to actually be calling Judith

Miller? Because we have to go through some --

THE COURT: My guess is, based on what they told the

jury, they are.

MR. SCHAR: It's our intention to call her.

MR. DEUTSCH: And are they willing to tell us which

ISA agents they're going to be calling?

MR. SCHAR: No.

THE COURT: Who is your next witness after Dr.

Levitt?

MR. SCHAR: Interpreters, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay.

Do you have their names?

MS. HAMILTON: I've given their names. I e-mailed

the names to defense counsel --

THE COURT: Okay.

MS. HAMILTON: -- a few days ago.

THE COURT: My guess is Dr. Levitt is going to take

us over into Monday.

MR. DEUTSCH: Well, we don't have --

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Tuesday.

THE COURT: Tuesday. Thank you. Tuesday.

MR. DEUTSCH: Actually, Judge, I wanted to raise

something, and I understand the difficulties it presents. But

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71

I'm told by my client that there is actually some religious

interpretation difference as to the holiday in which Monday

you graciously allowed us to take off. Apparently,

Mr. Ashqar's mosque, because it's based on the moon,

celebrates the E'id, E-i-d, on Monday. But Mr. Salah's mosque

celebrates it on Tuesday.

So, Mr. Salah and his family has asked me to ask you

whether we could take off Tuesday, as well.

THE COURT: I really do not want to take off another

entire day. Is there -- I know he could always go to a

different mosque. Is there --

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah, I understand. And I do

understand that.

The problem is, as told to me by Mr. Salah and his

wife, is that this is the mosque that they're, you know, very

much involved with and they -- what happens is the families

get together for an all-day celebration. So, he wouldn't be

able to do that.

THE COURT: I do not want to cancel another entire

day, and especially given that the Monday would be available

to him. Is there -- I mean, I am willing to --

MR. DEUTSCH: Can we maybe break a little bit earlier

on --

THE COURT: Yes. I will take something like that --

MR. DEUTSCH: All right.

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72

Let me talk to them and see --

THE COURT: Talk to them and find out --

MR. DEUTSCH: -- if that in any way --

THE COURT: -- what the schedule is.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- assists them.

THE COURT: Mr. Schar, did you have anything you

wanted to add on that?

MR. SCHAR: No, Judge, nothing to add.

THE COURT: Anything else --

MR. DEUTSCH: Well --

THE COURT: -- before the jury comes in?

MR. DEUTSCH: -- it seems like the trans- -- I'm not

sure how long the translators are going to take, but I

don't -- I don't -- anticipate long. So, who follows the

translators?

THE COURT: At the end of today, let us see where we

are with Dr. Levitt.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: Because I want to get a better idea of

the schedule, as well.

Once the jury is here, I will come out and we will

start.

MR. SCHAR: Thank you, Judge.

(Brief recess.)

(Jury in.)

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Levitt - direct

73

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

I know that some of you had a couple questions this

morning for Ms. Rudolph about parking and pay and other

issues. They do not tell us any of that information. So, I

am going to have Ms. Rudolph at some point today come in and

talk to you and answer those administrative-type questions.

We are going to continue this morning with the

presentation of evidence.

Dr. Levitt, let me remind you, you are still under

oath, sir.

MATTHEW LEVITT, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY SWORN

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson, you may continue.

MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Judge.

DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Good morning, Dr. Levitt.

A. Good morning.

Q. I think when we ended yesterday, we were just at the point

where you had discussed the existence of an English language

version of the Hamas Covenant upon which you rely in your

field. That would be the Yale covenant; is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. All right.

You also indicated that the original document is

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Levitt -

74

published in Arabic; is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. All right.

Have you seen Arab language versions of the document?

A. I have.

Q. And where have you seen them?

A. I've seen them in your offices here. I've seen them in my

own offices --

MR. MOFFITT: I am going to object and ask to

approach.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, I don't want to say --

THE COURT: All right. All right.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. MOFFITT: It is my understanding from

cross-examining Dr. Levitt before, that he does not speak

Arabic.

THE COURT: Well, that was not the question.

Mr. Moffitt --

MR. MOFFITT: But has he seen Arabic -- how does he

know what they are if he doesn't speak the language?

THE COURT: Cross-examine him on it, Mr. Moffitt. He

said he is familiar with the Arabic language, he can recognize

it. He did not say he spoke it. He did not say he understood

it.

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Levitt - direct

75

MR. MOFFITT: What I'm saying --

THE COURT: Overruled.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: Overruled.

Go ahead.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Have you seen the Arabic language version published

anywhere?

A. I have.

Q. And where have you seen it published?

A. The Arabic language version was published through the IAP,

the Islamic Association for Palestine.

Q. And where is the Islamic Association of Palestine -- or at

least the version of that organization that you're familiar

with -- located?

A. It was here in Chicago.

Q. In the United States?

A. Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach.

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. I'm handing you what's marked Government Exhibit Hamas

Charter IAP --

(Document tendered.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

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Levitt - direct

76

Q. -- and ask you if you have seen that document before?

A. This is the one.

MR. MOFFITT: I ask to continue my objection, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Your objection will be noted for the

record.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt --

(Document tendered to the Court.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. -- you indicated yesterday that the Yale English language

version was a particularly good translation, from your

understanding, of the Arabic language version.

What have you done to come to that conclusion?

A. Well, first I sat down with an Arabic language translator

with this version -- the original Arabic -- and asked them to

confirm for me that the Yale version was accurate.

Then I also spoke with other academics in the field

to find out what versions of the charter they have used, and

the Yale version appears to be the most commonly used.

Q. And it's correct that that's the one -- the Yale version

is the one -- that you use in your field?

A. Correct.

MR. FERGUSON: Move admission for Government Exhibit

Hamas Charter IAP.

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Levitt - direct/voir dire by Deutsch

77

THE COURT: Objection?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I have a question. I can raise

it with you or ask the witness.

He says -- on the front of the document, as you may

see, it indicates that it's IAP Information Office, Tucson,

Arizona. And he testified somehow he saw it in Chicago.

THE COURT: You can ask him a question about that.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. Thank you.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT SALAH

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Do you have the document in front of you, sir?

A. I do.

Q. As you see the front page -- which is the only English

part of the document -- it indicates "IAP Information Office,

P.O. Box 44154, Tucson, Arizona."

When you saw it, did it appear like this, with the

Tucson, Arizona address?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you see it in the City of Chicago?

A. No.

Q. So, you did testify that -- somehow about Chicago in

relation to this, didn't you?

A. The IAP had an office in Chicago.

Q. But that -- you're testifying about this document. What

does that have to do with the office in Chicago?

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Levitt - direct

78

MR. FERGUSON: Judge --

THE COURT: Yes, sustained.

So admitted.

MR. MOFFITT: I object to the document.

THE COURT: Your objection is noted for the record.

You may proceed.

(Government Exhibit Hamas Charter IAP received in

evidence.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, I'd like to have you take us through the Yale

version -- the Yale English translation -- of the Hamas

charter and explain a number of components of it to the jury.

And do you have a copy of it up there? You should.

A. On my screen?

Q. First of all --

A. I have the hard copy.

Q. The hard copy?

A. Yes.

Q. All right.

I want to turn your attention to the screen and the

introductory section of the charter.

And it is denoted as, "The Covenant of the Islamic

Resistance Movement."

What is the Islamic Resistance Movement?

A. The Islamic Resistance Movement is Hamas. "Hamas" is an

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Levitt - direct

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acronym in Arabic for the Islamic Resistance Movement.

Q. And it is dated, that document; is it not?

A. It is.

Q. What's the date?

A. 18 August, 1988.

Q. And what does that date signify?

A. It signifies the date it was published.

Q. Does Hamas have -- you indicated that the Islamic

Resistance Movement is Hamas.

Is that how Hamas -- is the Islamic Resistance

Movement -- those words -- is how Hamas refers to itself?

A. More frequently it will refer to itself as "the movement."

Q. Okay.

And does Hamas stand for anything beside -- is

"Hamas" an acronym of some sort?

A. It is an acronym. Harakat al-Muqawa al-Islamiya, which is

Arabic for "Islamic Resistance Movement." The word also means

"zeal."

Q. And in your studies and field work, does Hamas or Hamas

members, do they refer to Hamas by any other term?

A. "The resistance," "the movement."

Q. The document starts with a salutation of sorts: "In The

Name Of The Most Merciful Allah."

And to make sure we're all on the same page, what is

the reference to "Allah" to?

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Levitt - direct

80

A. "Allah" is God.

Q. In the preamble there's a quote: "Israel will exist and

will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as

it obliterated others before it."

And the document reflects who that quote is from.

Would you tell us who it's from?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I think the document speaks for

itself. I don't think he needs to repeat what's on the face

of the document.

I object.

THE COURT: The question was who is it from.

Overruled.

You may answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. The quote is from Hassan al-Banna, who is the founder of

the Muslim Brotherhood that we discussed yesterday.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And the reference to Hassan al-Banna starts with the term

"The Martyr."

What does that signify?

A. The term "martyr" is used to refer to one who was killed

in the line of serving God as Hamas would perceive it.

Frequently, Hamas uses the term "martyr" to refer to

someone who is killed in a suicide bombing. They could also

refer to someone as a martyr who was killed by Israeli forces.

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Levitt - direct

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In this case, Hassan al-Banna was killed by the Egyptians.

Q. If you could just keep your voice up a little.

A. Sure.

Q. Appreciate it.

A. Is that better?

Q. That's better. Thanks.

Still in the preamble, following language: "This

covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) clarifies

its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand,

explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its

support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against

the Jews is very great and very serious."

What does this passage signify to you?

A. It signifies that this is the official document outlining

the goals and aims of Hamas. This document outlines its

strategies, its ideologies, what it stands for and what it

seeks to accomplish, and how it seeks to accomplish those

goals.

Q. In our discussion yesterday, we were speaking about the

disputed territories of the West Bank, Gaza and Israel.

Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. The reference at the very end of the passage that I just

read -- "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very

serious" -- is that a reference to Israel?

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Levitt - direct

82

A. It doesn't say "Israel." It says "Jews."

Q. Turning your attention, sir, to Article Two, which is

captioned, "The Islamic Resistance Movement's Relation with

the Moslem Brotherhood Group," and specifically the language,

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem

Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood movement is a

universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic

movement in modern times. It is characterized by its deep

understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace

of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture,

creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and

judgment, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information,

science of the occult, and conversion to Islam."

What does this passage signify, sir?

A. Well, first of all, it places Hamas within the family of

the Muslim Brotherhood. It describes itself as one of the

wings of the Muslim Brotherhood.

And, second, it makes clear that it sees a variety of

different areas of activity as important to achieving its

goals, including all aspects of life from education to

government, media, et cetera.

Q. Is there any sphere of endeavor which the Hamas ideology,

as reflected in the Covenant and in this language in

particular, would leave to what you refer to as the secular

sphere of life?

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Levitt - direct

83

A. No. This makes it very clear, and it's very clear from

the ideology of both Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, that

these are done to be done within the sphere of the Islamic

religion. This is a religious interpretation.

Q. And turn your attention to Article Three captioned,

"Structure and Formation"; specifically, the language, "The

basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of

Moslems who have given their allegiance to Allah, whom they

truly worship -- 'I have credited the jinn and humans only for

the purpose of worshipping' -- who know their duty towards

themselves, their families and country. In all that, they

fear Allah and raise the banner of jihad in the face of the

oppressors, so that they would rid the land and the people of

their uncleanliness, vileness and evils."

To what is this passage referring?

A. This is referring to the need to, in the words of the

passage, engage in jihad, to rid the land -- again, all of

historic Palestine -- of the Israeli occupants.

Q. And this is done with reference to Allah or God; is that

right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you said "God." Is that specifically the Muslim God?

A. It is the term in Arabic for the Muslim God, yes.

Q. Are non-Muslims welcome in the Islamic Resistance

Movement?

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Levitt - direct

84

A. No.

Q. The language "raising the banner of Jihad in the face of

the oppressors." You spoke yesterday somewhat of the term

"jihad" as having a couple of different facets or features.

Which form of "jihad" is being referred to in this

passage?

A. As we said yesterday, there's a jihad which can be

explained as personal betterment, and there's jihad which is

holy war against the perceived enemies of Islam.

And the way to determine which jihad is being

referred to is a common-sense test and a context test. When

the context is "facing oppressors, ridding the land of

unclean, vile and evil," that certainly implies the holy war

against perceived enemies of Islam version.

Q. And who are the oppressors here?

A. The implication appears to be the Israelis who are

occupying their land.

Q. "And ridding the land and the people of their

uncleanliness," what land is being referred to?

A. The -- Israel, West Bank and Gaza, all of historic

Palestine.

Q. And what makes these oppressors unclean, vile and evil?

A. Well, it's either -- or both -- the fact that they are

occupying this land or, as the previous passage referred, to

the fact that they're Jews.

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Levitt - direct

85

Q. Turn your attention to Article Six.

Sorry. Same slide, bottom of the slide that's up

there right now:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished

Palestinian movement whose allegiance to Allah and whose way

of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah

over every inch of Palestine."

"Every inch of Palestine." With reference to our

discussion yesterday about Israel, the West Bank and Gaza,

what is the reference to Palestine to there?

A. All three. Again, what they understand is all of historic

Palestine. What is today Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.

Q. Turn your attention to Article Seven of the Hamas

Covenant, the specific language, "The Islamic Resistance

Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle

against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the

emergence of the martyr Iz Al-Din Al-Kissam and his brethren

the fighters and members of the Moslem Brotherhood. It goes

on to reach out and become one with another chain that

includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem

Brotherhood in the 1948 War and the Jihad operations of the

Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after."

A few questions on this one, Dr. Levitt.

"Zionist invaders," what is that a reference to?

A. The Israelis.

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Levitt - direct

86

Q. And "1939 and the emergence of the martyr Iz Al-Din

Al-Kissam," what is being referenced there?

A. This is a reference to uprising against the then-British

rulers in Palestine. Iz Al-Din Al-Qassam was a Muslim

Brotherhood leader who came from Syria and led a violent

uprising against the British at the time. He called it a

jihad; obviously, of the holy war type. He was killed in a

fight with the British and is, therefore, referred to here as

a martyr.

Q. And the struggles of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948

war, what's being referenced there?

A. 1948 war was the war after the United Nations' decision to

partition Palestine. The Israelis refer to it as the War of

Independence. Palestinians refer to it as the Naqba or

catastrophe.

1948 is what led to the creation of modern-day

Israel.

Q. And "the jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in

1968 and after," is that a reference to the self-improvement

side of jihad?

A. No. That's clearly a reference to the operations of

members of the Muslim Brotherhood after the '67 war, and it's

of the violent nature.

Q. Still in Article Seven, the top passage, "Moreover, if the

links have been distant from each other and if obstacles

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placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of

the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the

Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realization of

Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The

Prophet, Allah, bless him and grant him salvation."

I'll stop right there.

Those first couple of sentences. "The

continuation -- " first of all, "the lackeys of Zionism,"

what's being -- what is Zionism?

A. Zionism is the movement that brought Jews back to Israel

to what Jews believe is the holy land. Like Muslims and

Christians, Jews believe that they needed to return to their

holy land. And there's a movement, especially after the

Holocaust, to establish a national homeland for Jews in

Israel.

Q. And the phrase "the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the

fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle."

Lackeys, struggle, what's going on there?

A. "Struggle" is a reference to the struggle by the Muslim

Brotherhood continued by Hamas as the Palestinian branch of

the Muslim Brotherhood to oppose Israel. "The lackeys of

Zionism" are those who have supported Israel and its right to

exist.

Q. All right.

Carrying up where I left off, "The Prophet, Allah,

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bless him and grant him salvation, has said: 'The day of

judgment will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews

(killing the Jews) when the Jew will hide behind stones and

trees. Stones and trees will say, 'O Moslems, O Abdulla,

there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad

tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the

Jews.'"

What is this quote a reference to?

A. I think the quote speaks for itself. It calls for Muslims

to fight Jews and to kill them.

Q. Is this -- there is a reference at the bottom "related by

al-Bukhari and Moslems." Is this a quote that comes from a

time that post-dates the formation of Israel?

A. No, this is predating it. I'm not an expert on Islam. I

don't know when. But this is a religious quote.

Q. So, is it a reference specifically to Israel?

A. No.

Q. Specifically to Zionism?

A. No.

Q. Would proponents of a two-state solution, which was

discussed in the context of the Oslo Accords, be regarded as

lackeys of Zionism in this framework?

A. Very likely.

Q. And in the context of relations -- modern relations --

between the Palestinians and the Israelis, who would fall into

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the category of the lackeys of Zionism?

A. First, those foreign nations or organizations --

international organizations -- that have supported Israel;

and, second, those members of the Palestinian community that

have promoted a two-state solution that recognizes Israel and

gives Israel a right to exist as a state alongside a

Palestinian state.

Q. Turning your attention, Dr. Levitt, to Article Eight, "The

Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement."

"Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the

Koran its constitution. Jihad is its path and death for the

sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

As the word "jihad" appears in this passage, which

form of the word is being invoked?

A. Again, it's the common-sense test. When "jihad" is

referred to in the context of death, it's quite clearly of the

violent nature.

Q. Can you, from your studies and your work, can you place in

context the notion of death as the loftiest of wishes?

A. There is this sense of martyrdom that if one is killed in

the process of defending Islam --

MR. MOFFITT: I object.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- one is a martyr.

MR. MOFFITT: I object.

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THE COURT: I cannot --

MR. MOFFITT: I object.

THE COURT: Okay.

Can you give me -- like, "foundation," "form" -- one

word that -- we cannot have a sidebar for every objection.

MR. MOFFITT: He has said he's not a religious

expert.

THE COURT: What is your response to that?

MR. FERGUSON: I'll ask a couple of questions to lay

further foundation.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, in the course of your research and your

writing, have you had an encounter -- either personal, face to

face or other form of encounter -- with expressions by people

claiming to be members of Hamas?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, objection. It's such a vague

question. It's based on --

MR. FERGUSON: I haven't gotten the question out.

MR. DEUTSCH: Who is he talking about?

I object. It doesn't --

THE COURT: The question is does the witness

understand? If he does not understand it, he can let

Mr. Ferguson know.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

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Q. Have you seen martyr wills?

A. I have.

Q. Have you seen --

MR. DEUTSCH: Foundation. Can we have a time, a

place, specifics?

MR. FERGUSON: I'd love to lay a foundation for this,

Judge.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Where have you seen martyr wills?

A. I've seen them on the Internet. I've seen them on

television. I collected them in the course of my research in

the West Bank and Gaza for the purpose of my book. I've

published some of them in the book and analyzed them. I've

met with Islamic scholars to further understand what martyrdom

means within Islam and how Hamas understands it.

Q. And these martyr wills take what specific form? Are they

written?

A. They are -- they vary. Sometimes the wills are written.

Often they are videotaped. In other words, a prospective

suicide bomber will appear on film; often will, also, sign an

actual written will. The will is not what we would normally

think about in terms of where you leave your possessions, but

it is a statement of the person's making very clear that they

are about to carry out a suicide bombing. They describe

Israelis and Jews in the language we've seen here. They talk

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about their allegiance to Hamas. They talk about how they're

doing this in furtherance of God's wishes. They talk about

how it's -- what kind of an honor it is to blow themselves up,

often in graphic detail. And the language is -- is -- is --

stated in such a way that the wills can later be used, as they

often are, to recruit and radicalize others to do the same.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I would like to know whether

he's talking about these things post-January 25th, '93, when

Mr. Salah was arrested, or pre.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I object to the speaking

objection. First of all, that's not an objection.

MR. DEUTSCH: It is an objection.

MR. FERGUSON: That's cross-examination.

MR. DEUTSCH: Clearly, it's an objection.

THE COURT: Wait. Counsel, you both cannot speak at

the same time. Joe cannot take it down if you do, and I

cannot hear it if you are both talking.

MR. DEUTSCH: Of course it's an objection. I said it

was an objection. I told you the basis of it. I want to know

whether or not this is before Mr. Salah was arrested in

January of '93.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson, he indicated that he has

seen many of these and the basis that he had seen them. See

if you can clarify with him time frame.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

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Q. Could you clarify for us time frame?

A. My field research in this began in 1997, but I've seen and

analyzed living wills from a wide period of time. I honestly

can't tell you the dates of all of them.

The ones that I know I used in my book were more

recent.

Q. And your understanding, from your work in your field of

expertise, does the expressions that you have seen and

analyzed from these martyrs equate to the term being used in

the slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement that death is

its loftiest of wishes?

A. It does.

Q. Continue on to Article Nine, "Incentives and Objectives."

"As for the objectives, they are the fighting against

the false, defeating it and vanquishing it, so that justice

could prevail, homelands be retrieved, and from its mosques

will the voice of the mu'azen emerge -- "

MR. FERGUSON: And I'll give you the spelling for

that later.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. " -- emerge declaring the establishment of the state of

Islam, so that people and things would return each to their

right places and Allah is our helper."

"Fighting against the false," what's the reference to

there?

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A. Again, this is a reference to fighting against the

perceived enemies of Islam. By failing to acknowledge Islam,

they are speaking falsehoods. Sometimes the word "infidel"

will be used to describe someone who doesn't recognize the

truthfulness of Islam.

Q. "Homelands be retrieved," what is that a reference to?

A. West Bank, Gaza, Israel. All of historic Palestine.

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, the document that we have

that we were given is in Arabic.

THE COURT: He is reviewing the one from yesterday,

that was admitted into evidence without objection, that is

in English.

MR. MOFFITT: That's all I wanted to know.

THE COURT: Okay.

You may proceed.

MR. FERGUSON: And the quoted passages are directly

from that.

MR. MOFFITT: I understand.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And what's your understanding as to the fact that the

declaration of the establishment of the state of Islam would

be coming from a mosque?

A. The state that Hamas would like to establish is not just

defined territorially in terms of it being in all of what is

now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, but it is a particular

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type of state. It's not a secular state. It is an Islamic

state.

Hamas pursues that goal through a variety of means,

including indoctrinating and making its position known,

especially through mosques. Many scholars -- many Palestinian

scholars -- like Ziad Abu-Amr and others have noted both the

Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood and -- then, once it changed

its name to Hamas -- Hamas' preference for the use of mosques

as a place to propagate its ideology.

Q. Turning your attention to Article Eleven, "The Islamic

Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an

Islamic waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until

judgment day. It or any part of it should not be squandered.

It or any part of it should not be given up.

"This is the law governing the land of Palestine in

the Islamic Sharia, and the same goes for any land the Moslems

have conquered by force because during the times of Islamic

conquests, Moslems consecrated these lands, the Moslem

generations until judgment day."

There are a number of terms being used here that I'd

like you to explain.

What is an Islamic waqf?

A. A waqf is an endowment. And it refers here to something

that is -- land in this case -- which is religiously

sanctioned for Islam.

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As the second paragraph makes clear, there's a

principle in Islam that once a land has been conquered by

Muslims --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- it is considered Muslim land.

MR. MOFFITT: Again, I object to him discussing

religion.

THE COURT: What is your response to that?

MR. FERGUSON: It's a religious organization. It

cannot be spoken of without reference to religion.

THE COURT: The objection is based on the witness'

prior statement that he was not an expert in Islamic

principles.

MR. FERGUSON: And this is with reference

specifically, Judge, to what the Hamas articulation of these

terms and ideology are.

THE COURT: Why do you not clarify that with your

witness.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And, Dr. Levitt, just so we're clear, in all respects, you

acknowledge you're not an expert in the Islamic religion; is

that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you've acknowledged that you don't speak Arabic

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yourself?

A. Correct.

Q. And you rely upon others with expertise to assist you to

come to the basic information from which you form your

opinions; is that right?

A. Yes, but not just, you know, the assistance of others in

terms of sitting with a translator. Because I'm not an expert

in Islam and because I'm studying groups that base their

ideology on Islam, it's incumbent upon me as a scholar to sit

down with people who are experts and to better understand

these concepts as they apply to my particular area of

expertise.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Non-responsive.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And in the context of reviewing things like martyr video

wills, are religious terms invoked and utilized?

A. Absolutely. Throughout.

Q. And what do you do to come to an understanding as to what

is being spoken of in those contexts?

A. Once I have sat with experts in Islam and have understood

how Hamas and groups like it use the term "martyr" or "jihad,"

then I'm better situated when I view these things to be able

to come to -- again, it's almost always a common-sense test --

conclusion as to what the context really means.

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Q. And understanding that there is a connection or touch

point between the religious and the organizational here, I

just want to make clear that you keep your comments directed

simply to the religious within the context of the

organizational, rather than religion generally --

A. Absolutely.

Q. -- is that fair?

The phrase "the law governing Palestine and the

Islamic Sharia," what's Sharia?

A. Sharia is law. It means Islamic law, religious law.

Q. And where we stopped off a minute ago, you were discussing

conquests in relation to land of Islam. Would you continue

your answer, please?

A. There's a principle that lands that have been conquered by

Muslims are -- become Muslim lands. And there's a principle

out there of the need eventually to reconquer those lands.

That would apply to Palestine, and it would apply to other

areas, as well.

Q. And what sorts of other areas?

A. The one that gets the most discussion in academic circles

is Spain, for example. At one point Spain was conquered by

Muslims. In my -- the time I've spent in Spain lecturing and

participating in conferences, this is something that academics

there bring up all the time.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, objection. Irrelevant. Out --

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just way beyond what we need for this case, his lecturing in

Spain.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge --

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: -- it is the constitutional document

of the enterprise that is charged here, of which the

defendants are charged as members of a conspiracy to further.

It is fundamental.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Is Spain in the Middle East?

A. No, it's not.

Q. I turn your attention to Article Twelve, "Homeland and

Nationalism."

"Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic

Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing

in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case

when an enemy should tread Moslem land. Resisting and

quelling the enemy becomes the individual duty of every

Moslem, male or female. A woman can't -- " I'm sorry. "A

woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's

permission, and so does the slave without his master's

permission."

"Nationalism is part of the religious creed," what is

your understanding of what that reference is?

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A. For Hamas, nationalism is not a secular principle. In the

context of Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood more generally,

nationalism is to be combined with religious Islamic

principles.

Those groups that pursue the Palestinian cause

through solely secular ideologies are not in agreement with

Hamas -- or, I should say, Hamas is not in agreement with

them. Because for Hamas, as the Covenant makes clear, this is

not only about nationalism. Certainly not the kind of secular

nationalism we in the West tend to think about.

Q. Article Thirteen, bottom of the slide which is captioned,

"Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International

Conferences."

And just -- it was mentioned yesterday. It's a term

that isn't always rooted for me. Would you please explain,

again, what you mean when you use the term "secular"?

A. Secular meaning non-religious.

Q. "Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International

Conferences.

"Initiatives and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the

principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. These

conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the lands

of the Moslems as arbitrators. When did the infidels do

justice to the believers?

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"'But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither

the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, the

direction of Allah is the true direction. Verily if thou

follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been

given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against

Allah.'

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question

except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and

international conferences are all a waste of time and vein

endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent

to having their future, rights and faith be toyed with?"

What does this passage indicate to you with respect

to any peacefully-negotiated settlement of the dispute between

the Israelis and the Palestinians?

A. I'm not sure it could be any clearer. Peaceful negotiated

solutions are against the principles of Hamas. A two-state

solution that would leave a State of Israel and any part of

what Hamas sees as historic Palestine is against Hamas. The

only way to pursue a solution to the Palestinian question is

through jihad, which is clearly the violent type of jihad by

the context here.

Q. Article Fifteen, "The Jihad for the Liberation of

Palestine is an Individual Duty."

"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad

becomes the individual duty of every Muslim. In the face of

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the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the

banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion

of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the

regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill

the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation, so that they

would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the

fighters."

What is being invoked here, in your understanding,

with respect to Hamas and its ideology?

A. This is a call for militant jihad, to participate in

fighting.

Q. Continuing on, "Jihad is not continued -- " "is not

confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the

enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book,

support and solidarity together with the presence of sincere

purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher.

All these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake.

'Whosoever mobilizes a fighter for the sake of Allah is

himself a fighter. Whosoever supports the relatives of a

fighter, he himself is a fighter."

All right. I read a fair amount there and I want to

reference back to a number of things.

"Whenever any part of Moslem land is usurped, Jihad

is an individual duty." Is that a reference to Palestine,

again?

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A. It doesn't only say Palestine; but, in this context, it

clearly certainly includes Palestine, yes.

Q. "Jihad is an individual duty." Explain that.

A. Every single individual -- every Muslim, in other words --

would have the individual obligation to do his or her part to

participate in or facilitate this jihad. This is not just

something that is the obligation of the greater community.

It's something that is each individual's obligation.

Q. And does the concept of jihad that's being referenced here

transcend simply the violence side, as we've been discussing?

A. It does. There are these two parts to jihad. There's the

personal improvement and there's the militant jihad. But

there are multiple components to the militant jihad. Not only

participating in it directly, but facilitating it, as the last

quote you read makes clear. Mobilizing others to do it,

funding it, all these types of activities would be considered

participation in the furtherance of the cause of jihad.

Q. Next part of Article Fifteen, I have to read a little

additional language.

"It is necessary that scientists, educators and

teachers, information and media people, as well as the

educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the

Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of

awakening the masses. It is important that basic changes be

made in the school curriculum to cleanse it of the traces of

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ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the

orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region

following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah

el-Din."

With reference to that broader concept of jihad,

would you please explain the passage that I just read?

A. As I mentioned, one of Hamas' goals is to Islamize

Palestinian society. Hamas believes that Palestinian society

should be based on Islamic principles.

In order to facilitate this jihad that it is calling

for, it needs to change the curriculum, change the way people

look at things to an Islamic -- or their perception of an

Islamic -- viewpoint. It is important for them to be able to

indoctrinate the future generations, so that they will be

interested and willing to participate in this jihad and to do

so from an Islamist perspective, not just the secular

nationalist one.

Q. Secular meaning non-religious?

A. Correct.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. So, the work of scientists, science is something that

should be done within the Islamic context?

A. Hamas' --

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MR. DEUTSCH: I object and ask for --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- from its --

MR. DEUTSCH: Strike it. I'm sorry.

THE COURT: You may answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Hamas and fellow Muslim Brotherhood Islamists are not

willing to cede any part of society to non-religious or

secular elements. For Hamas and other Muslim Brotherhood

followers, all these areas of life feed into Islam. Islam is

not just a religion but a way of life, and includes and

incorporates all these different things. And each of these

fields has its area where it can contribute and turn to Islam

and for Hamas to its Islamic Jihad.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And I turn your attention, with respect to the remarks

that you just made, to the last passage that's up on the

screen: "Whosoever mobilizes a fighter for the sake of Allah

is himself a fighter. Whosoever supports the relatives of a

fighter, he himself is a fighter."

What does that mean?

A. This is an important passage because the Covenant just

made clear that this jihad is incumbent upon every individual;

and, so, what happens for those individuals who don't find

themselves in a situation where they are able to physically

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participate in this jihad.

And, so, the Covenant quotes Islamic scholars who say

that those who mobilize or facilitate other fighters is

considered himself a fighter. Whoever supports the relatives

of a fighter is a fighter.

And, so, for example, one of the core principles of

Hamas is to raise funds for the families of its fighters, of

its suicide bombers and others.

Q. Are you familiar with the phrase "economic jihad"?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that relate to this particular broader concept of

jihad that you're discussing?

A. It does. Economic jihad is the principle by which if you

cannot actively participate in the jihad yourself, if you

cannot be a fighter, if you finance a fighter, if you finance

the family of a fighter so that a fighter can go out knowing

that his or her family will be taken care of in the event of

their death by suicide or otherwise, then you yourself --

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I object, again. He's talking

generally. I want him to set a date. Is he talking about

something subsequent to January of '93?

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson, why do you not clarify what

general time period he is talking about.

MR. MOFFITT: I object on another grounds.

THE COURT: On what grounds?

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MR. MOFFITT: On another grounds.

THE COURT: Okay.

Let us get this --

MR. MOFFITT: The term "economic jihad" is a term

that Dr. Levitt invented along with Mr. Emerson. It's not a

term that is -- was invented by Hamas or anybody. It's a term

of his own invention.

THE COURT: You are free to cross-examine on that,

Mr. Moffitt.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, you've heard Mr. Deutsch a couple of times ask

a date reference with respect to whether this is post-1993 or

pre-1993 with respect to the invocation and application of

these terms.

What is the date that the Hamas Covenant is

published?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, that's not my question.

THE COURT: I know, but he is --

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. All right.

THE COURT: -- laying his foundation.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. 18 August, 1988.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And is there anything in the document that indicates that

any of its provisions will not become effective until 1994?

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A. No.

Q. And, so, the concepts that you are discussing here, do

they have application for the period continuously that

post-date August of 1990 -- 1988?

A. They do.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, can he clarify whether or not

there were any martyrs, videos of martyrs, suicide bombings

prior to January of 1993?

He knows it. He knows it. Let's tell the jury.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge --

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch --

Wait.

-- you are free to cross-examine on these principles.

You have heard his testimony. He has laid the appropriate

foundation for the time period. That is fair game on

cross-examination.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you.

THE COURT: You may proceed.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. In our Constitution, there are amendments. They're added

over time. Have there been any amendments to this charter

since August 18th of 1988?

A. No.

Q. It's the same today as it was then?

A. Yes.

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Q. In our discussion a minute ago, you referenced a phrase

that discusses scientists, the educators. I want to turn your

attention to Article Sixteen, "The Education of the

Generations."

"It is necessary to follow Islamic orientation in

educating the Islamic generations in our region by teaching

the religious duties, comprehensive study of the Koran, study

of the Prophet'S Sunna, his sayings and doings, and learning

about Islamic history and heritage from authentic sources.

This should be done by specialized and learned people using a

curriculum that would helpfully form the thoughts and faith of

the Moslem student. Side by side with this, a comprehensive

study of the enemy, his human and financial capabilities,

learning about his points of weaknesses and strength, and

getting to know the forces supporting and helping him should

also be included."

Would you please explain this in the context of your

remarks about jihad having this broader context within the

Hamas ideology?

A. It's equally important for Hamas in its ability to fight

Israelis and Jews, as it says in its Covenant, it's equally

important for it to understand its enemy as it is for it to

train its own to its way of thinking.

Again, it's critical for Hamas to indoctrinate

Palestinian society to Hamas' understanding of Islamic

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principles, to Hamas' understanding of the core importance of

militant jihad, in order for it to have a future generation of

followers and militant activists.

Q. And how does education serve the fighter?

A. Education is the first step in indoctrinating and

radicalizing the next generation of fighters and of

supporters. Hamas runs extensive education programs. It not

only uses these to teach its interpretation of Islam and the

need for jihad, but it also uses these to provide discounted

and often free education to its followers.

It uses its schools as a place where students are

surrounded by the ideals as they are for Hamas of martyrdom

and jihad. Classrooms, for example, as I've seen pictures of,

will be decorated with posters of suicide bombers who are

described --

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- as martyrs.

MR. DEUTSCH: Can we get a foundation as to the date

when he saw these photographs?

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Where and when have you seen photographs of martyrs in

schools?

A. These are widely published. I've seen them many times

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over the course of many years. You can see them on mainstream

media, from NBC and CNN, to published media. This is

something that receives such wide coverage as to be very

widely known. The images are there for everyone to see.

They're on the Internet, as well. It's not complicated to be

able to see these if you're so inclined.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, the question was the date.

That's all. It's not a speech. It's about the date. That's

all I want, the date he saw it.

THE COURT: Your objection was about the date.

I think the question was a little broader.

He answered the where, but the other part of the

question was when.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Over the course of my research from 1997 on, hundreds of

times. I couldn't tell you any specific date that I saw these

any more than I could tell you when I read a specific book.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Have you seen posters that reference martyrs or jihadists

whose activities pre-dated 1994?

A. Can you restate the question?

Q. Have you seen any posters of jihadists or martyrs whose

activities for Hamas is earlier than 1994?

A. I may have. I'm not sure.

Q. The educators. Back with reference to Article Thirty,

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"Whosoever supports -- " I'm sorry, "Whosoever mobilizes a

fighter for the sake of Allah is a fighter."

Is an educator a fighter under that ideological

expression?

A. By Hamas' understanding, yes.

Q. Article Eighteen, "The Role of the Muslim Woman."

"Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether

she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role in

looking after the family, rearing the children and imbuing

them the moral values and thoughts derived from Islam. She

has to teach them to perform the religious duties in

preparation for the role of fighting awaiting them."

What does this mean?

A. It's part of the education issue in terms of the

importance of educating the young generation to be prepared to

fight. This includes teaching them of the core values of

jihad and martyrdom. It involves teaching them -- excuse

me -- of the perceived evils of their enemy, the Israelis;

and, preparing them for their role of fighting.

Q. Article Twenty-Seven, "The Palestinian Liberation

Organization."

"Secularism completely contradicts religious

ideology."

What does that mean?

A. It's pretty clear that secularism, meaning ideology that's

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devoid of religion, completely contradicts an ideology that is

based on religion.

Q. "That is why with all of our appreciation for the

Palestinian Liberation Organization and what it can develop

into, without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli

conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future

Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature

of Palestine is part of our religion, and whoever takes his

religion lightly is a loser."

What is being expressed there?

A. Again, the Palestine that Hamas wants to create is an

Islamic Palestine. There is no more room within Hamas'

Islamic Palestine for a secular Palestinian society than there

is for Israel, which is why Hamas states in its Covenant that

while it appreciates the role that the PLO played in the

past -- that is to say, the PLO engaged in terrorist attacks

against Israel throughout the 1970s and early '80s -- and

while it recognizes its role that it plays and it has played

in the Arab-Israeli conflict, that Hamas is not willing to

side with the PLO in the creation of a secular state and

insists on the creation of a purely Islamic state.

Q. So, they're supporters, at a level, of prior activities of

the PLO; that is a fair understanding?

A. They supported the violent activities that the PLO engaged

in against Israel. That support stopped when the PLO started

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engaging in peace negotiations with Israel.

Q. Article Twenty-Eight, "Arab and Islamic Countries."

"The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. Arab

countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders

before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so

that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their

Moslem brethren in Palestine."

What does that phrase -- or what does that passage --

mean to you, sir?

A. Hamas here is calling on the Arab countries that surround

Israel to -- if they are not going to actively participate in

war against Israel, to -- at least facilitate the cross-border

travel of fighters from throughout the Arab and Islamic world

so that they can participate in the Islamic jihad against

Israel.

Q. Continuing on, "As for the other Arab and Islamic

countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the

fighters from and to it. This is the least thing they could

do."

What does that mean?

A. Basically, the same thing, only here referring to Arab and

Islamic countries that are not directly bordering Israel; and,

therefore, it's not an issue just to open their borders into

Israel, but to facilitate the movement of fighters from

throughout the Arab world to be able to participate in this

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fight; and, if they're not going to participate in the fight

themselves -- these states -- facilitating this movement of

fighters is the least they could do.

Q. And I turn your attention to the last phrase on the

screen.

"Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the

Moslem people. May the cowards never sleep."

This is not a reference simply to Israel. So, would

you please explain it for us?

A. Here Hamas is saying that all three -- Israel; Judaism,

which is a religion; Jews, who are people who observe the

Jewish religion -- are perceived to be challenges to Islam and

to the Muslim people; and, therefore, an apparent reference

back to Israelis, Jews, describing them as cowards, they say,

"May they never sleep," meaning be in fear.

Q. Article Thirty-Two, "World Zionism, together with

imperialistic powers, try through a steady plan and an

intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state from another

-- " "after another from the circle of struggle against

Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian

people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the

circle of the struggle through the treacherous Camp David

agreement. They're trying to draw other Arab countries into

similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of the

struggle."

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Continuing on, "Their plan is embodied in the

'Protocols of the Elders of Zion.' Their present conduct is

the best proof of what we are saying. Leaving the circle of

struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who

does that. There is no way out except by concentrating all

powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion.

The Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself to be the

spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a

step on the road."

What's world Zionism?

A. There is a theory by conspiracy theorists and extremists

that the Jews control the world and world Zionism is some type

of overarching movement to do just that.

Q. And is there anything in the extended passage that I just

read that would indicate that world Zionism means specifically

what you're understanding it to mean here?

A. Hamas makes it very clear that's what they're referring to

here when they refer to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion,"

which is one of the oldest and most thoroughly debunked

anti-Semitic tracts known to mankind.

Q. There's a reference beginning part of that passage to

Egypt and Camp David accords. What's that a reference to?

A. Egypt negotiated a peace treaty with Israel. Israel

gave -- returned, that is -- back to Egypt the Sinai

Peninsula, which it had conquered and occupied. And Egypt

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signed a peace treaty with Israel that still stands today.

Q. So, it was treason for Egypt to enter into a peace

agreement with Israel?

A. For Hamas, it's treasonist on two grounds. On the first

ground, to engage in any type of peaceful negotiation, let

alone come to a final negotiated settlement with Israel that

recognizes Israel, is treason. Egypt has an Arab Egyptian

Ambassador in Israel. That's treasonist as far as Hamas is

concerned.

And the second reason is because from Hamas'

perspective, Egypt left the circle of the struggle and is no

longer participating in the struggle against Israel. And, so,

it has abandoned its Muslim brothers, as it were.

Q. In that last phrase that I read, "The Islamic Resistance

Movement considers itself to be the spearhead of the circle of

the struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road."

Step on the road to, what?

A. What -- there's plenty that's not clear here. What is

clear is that they're saying that their fight with world

Zionism in the context of pushing the Israelis out of Israel

and establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in all of

historic Palestine is but a step on the road, that there is

something they have to -- yet to accomplish after that,

apparently related to world Zionism.

Q. Dr. Levitt, does Hamas have an emblem or a seal that it

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utilizes in its communications and publications communicating

with the world?

A. It does.

Q. Are you familiar with the seal?

A. I am.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. I'm handing you what's marked Government Exhibit Emblem --

(Document tendered.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. -- and ask you if you have seen the image that is depicted

on that exhibit?

A. I have.

Q. What is it?

A. This is the symbol for Hamas. Its emblem.

Q. Where have you seen that symbol in the course of your

work?

A. It appears on Hamas Web sites. It appears on Hamas

publications. It appears on banners of Hamas at Hamas

rallies. The martyr living will videos we talked about are

almost always presented against the backdrop of Hamas banners,

often including this symbol. Hamas produces baseball hats and

bandanas with this symbol.

MR. FERGUSON: Move for admission of Government

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Exhibit Emblem.

MR. MOFFITT: No objection.

MR. DEUTSCH: No objection.

THE COURT: So admitted.

(Government Exhibit Emblem received in evidence.)

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to publish?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, I'd like you to explain your understanding of

a number of the symbols that this emblem is comprised of.

There is a domed structure that is right in the

center (indicating) of the emblem. What do you understand

that to be?

A. That is a picture of the Dome of the Rock.

Q. What is the Dome of the Rock?

A. Dome of the Rock is one of two structures on the Haram

al-Sharif, the noble sanctuary.

Q. What's Haram al-Sharif?

A. The noble sanctuary. It is what the Jews refer to as the

Temple Mount. It is in the Old City of Jerusalem. It is the

third holiest place in Islam.

Q. And what does it signify, in your experience, in the

context of Hamas and the dispute between the Israelis and

Palestinians?

A. It's placing at the center of this symbol, the center of

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the struggle an Islamic symbol. This is a religious issue.

This is not simply a nationalist one. It's also placing

Jerusalem and specifically this plot of land, also, at the

center of the struggle.

Q. And there is a vertical pointed image directly above

(indicating) the Dome of the Rock. What is that image?

A. That's an image of all of historic Palestine. In other

words, that is similar to the image we had up yesterday of

what is today Israel, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Q. But it does not separate the territories at all --

A. No.

Q. -- is that right?

Where is Israel in that map?

A. Israel is not on that map if it's Hamas' interpretation.

Q. There are two (indicating) banner-like objects circling

the Dome of the Rock. What are they?

A. These are Palestinian flags.

Q. And there are two crossing, slashing objects directly

beneath the Dome and pointing at the Palestinian flags. What

are those?

A. Swords.

Q. What do they signify?

A. They signify militancy.

Q. The Hamas charter, as you've discussed, reflects multiple

spheres or streams of activity in society and life. Are those

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expressions, within the context of the statement of Hamas'

goals, reflected in its structure?

A. Yes.

Q. In general terms, how is Hamas structured?

A. It's generally thought of as having three wings. It has a

political wing, a social welfare or charity wing, and a

military or terrorist wing.

Q. And what's the relationship, in general terms -- we're

going to break it down, but what's the relationship between

the three?

A. The three are intimately interrelated. The political wing

has overall decision-making authority, but each of these wings

is interconnected with the other.

Q. All right.

Let's break these wings down. The charitable or

social wing, what is that generally referred to as?

A. It's often referred to as the Dawa, which literally just

means "call," and is a reference to the need to proselytize to

non-believers and bring believers closer to the faith.

Social welfare and charity institutions are used for

this purpose. By providing discounted or free services,

people are drawn into these services. By providing them in

Islamic context, one goes a long way towards facilitating that

proselytizing and indoctrination?

Q. And what sorts of institutions or services does it provide

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in that context?

A. Hamas provides a wide array of services. Religious

services, mosques, classes; education services, from

preschools and kindergartens through elementary schools up

through university; medical facilities, from full-fledged

hospitals to clinics; charities that provide much-needed food,

basic services. There's really a very broad spectrum.

Q. And as provided by Hamas, are they available to all

Palestinians?

A. Hamas focuses its efforts on its members.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. That's not an answer to --

are they available to all Palestinians, was the question.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

The objection was "non-responsive."

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Do these institutions that you're referring in your

studies and work, are they designed and promoted and opened to

Palestinians other than members of Hamas?

A. They are not equally available to all Palestinians.

Q. And is their sole purpose to help the needy in the

Palestinian territories?

A. It's not their sole purpose.

Q. What other purposes do they serve?

A. These institutions also serve to indoctrinate and Islamize

Palestinian society; to spot and recruit future operatives; to

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radicalize them; to train them; to fund them; and, to

facilitate the movement of funds from elsewhere --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- to facilitate their activities.

MR. MOFFITT: I assume that this is his opinion.

THE COURT: Yes. All of this is his expert opinion.

Your assumption is correct.

You may continue.

MR. FERGUSON: Thank you.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Let me just ask you, have you written about this subject

specifically?

A. Extensively.

Q. Have you published materials on this subject in book form?

A. Yes.

Q. And where is it published in book form?

A. The book was published through Yale University Press.

Q. All right.

Proselytizing, recruitment, radicalizing. You

mentioned education -- educational institutions, schools -- as

part of the Dawa. Would you please explain a little bit more

exactly how they function in the context of the Dawa structure

and Hamas?

A. Kindergartens and summer camps, for example, will be run

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by Hamas, and students, young children will be surrounded by

images of posters of suicide bombers.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. They will be taught the importance of --

MR. DEUTSCH: Object- --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- jihad and martyrdom.

MR. DEUTSCH: Excuse me.

THE COURT: What is the objection?

MR. DEUTSCH: I want some kind of foundation here.

He simply always has this narrative answer which he floats in

"suicide bombers." And I want some, at least, time frame of

what he's talking about, a date. A general date, at least.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, Mr. Deutsch would like some

other information. Cross-examination is where the other

information comes from.

MR. BLOOM: Objection.

MR. FERGUSON: There is -- Judge, there is -- a

pattern here of stepping up, stopping the witness in the

middle of --

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. FERGUSON: -- his testimony.

THE COURT: Okay. That is enough. That is enough.

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You are free to cross-examine him, Mr. Deutsch. He

has laid the foundation as an expert for his opinion. He

clarified foundation earlier on the time frame, that he is

testifying with respect to Hamas matters from the 1988 forward

period, based on the charter. He is not -- you are free to

cross-examine him on more specifics. But he has laid the

foundation both for his expert opinion -- which he laid

yesterday and some today, again -- as well as the time frame.

MR. DEUTSCH: I understand that, Judge.

THE COURT: I understand you are asking and trying to

seek specific -- this year, that year. He has testified that

it covered the broad range, and you are free to cross-examine

him on particular years.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I understand that. I respect

your decision. I intend to cross-examine him at length about

this.

It just seems to me that when we're talking about

something that is so potentially prejudicial and he keeps

floating it into his narrative answer, at least he should tell

the jury what period of time he's relying on.

Now, if you want me to bring that out in crossexamination, I will do that.

THE COURT: It is not what I want or what I do not

want; it is what the rules provide for. You are free to

cross-examine him on all of the issues that you think are

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appropriate.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you.

THE COURT: You may proceed.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. I'm not sure where we are right now.

Education, take it from the top. Explain to us

education in the context of the Dawa in the service of Hamas.

A. Hamas educational institutions focus on the primacy of

jihad and martyrdom, key themes for Hamas. They focus on

demonizing the enemy, Israel in particular; Jews, as well.

They serve to highlight Hamas fighters, whatever the type of

terrorist attack they've carried out, as the types of

individuals these children should emulate. It is a truly

radicalizing environment, especially for the youngest and most

impressionable children.

But these continue throughout the educational career

with Hamas institutions up to and including university. Hamas

will produce schedules, for example, which students -- which

they'll hand out for free and give to students so they can

mark their class schedules. And these will have chronic

verses of the type that you put up on the screen about the

need to fight the Jews. It will quote Islamic leaders that

support Hamas' viewpoint about -- like, Hassan Al-Banna, the

founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, about -- the need to fight

the Jews.

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It will provide pictures of Hamas terrorists who have

carried out a variety of different types of attacks.

It will put pictures of the types of people they

think should be emulated on these and hand them out to

students for free, so that they'll use them and have them on a

daily basis.

Q. Are the activities of the Dawa in schools and colleges --

including colleges, universities, grade schools, all forms --

are those institutional resources, from your field work and

your study, utilized or have they been utilized to directly

facilitate or assist in military operations?

A. They have.

Hamas has used the playgrounds of at least one

kindergarten to bury and store weapons. Hamas uses all of its

infrastructure, whether it's schools or hospitals, as meeting

places. Particularly, when you get into the higher education,

into the colleges and universities, there are several

universities that have produced a long list of Hamas terrorist

cells that engaged in all kinds of terrorist activity,

including suicide bombings.

Q. You were speaking, at the point of one of our earlier

detours a few minutes ago, about money and financing in the

context of the Dawa. I don't think you had a chance to fully

explain that.

What role does the Dawa play with respect to

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fundraising and financing in relation to Hamas?

A. The Dawa is a primary fundraising mechanism for Hamas,

raising funds not only for the Dawa activities -- both the

provision of much-needed needs and the facilitation of those

institutions' ability to further military attacks -- but also

as a means to bring in monies that are used for alternative

purposes.

When you have charities operating in areas of

conflict, charities are an ideal way of moving funds and

laundering funds so that the ultimate end of their use is

unclear. Many scholars have documented the fact, for example,

that usually monies are expected to move in two directions.

The advantage to having a charity that's operating in a

conflict area is that no one raises an eyebrow when monies

flow in only one direction.

So, it also facilitates money laundering and money

transfer for all three branchs of the Hamas enterprise.

Q. And what sorts of specific things outside the context of

providing social services and filling social needs, from your

work, are you aware that the Dawa has directed money to?

A. The Dawa has provided tremendous amounts of funding to the

families of suicide bombers and other terrorists, not just

suicide bombers. And that is a particularly important area

because it creates almost an incentive. Certainly, it removes

a disincentive from people who might otherwise be concerned

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about how their families would be cared for after their death

in the context of an attack.

But it also provides funds for military cells. It is

used to launder funds for a variety of different types of

activities, which often are almost untraceable. Hamas

military activists will be provided day jobs in these various

Dawa institutions. They have not only daily income, but they

have cover and legitimacy for their other activities.

And it's not even necessarily the case that they have

a legitimate day job during the day and, then, put on a

different hat at night. Because it's a Hamas institution,

it's not that clear-cut. They can engage in whatever

activities they need to on behalf of Hamas -- illegal or

otherwise, militant or otherwise -- throughout the day. And

having this day job makes that all possible.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I'm about to go to another

section. I'm wondering if this would be an appropriate time

to take a break.

THE COURT: Sure.

We will pick up at about 10:30.

(Jury out.)

THE COURT: We will pick up at 10:30.

(Brief recess.)

THE COURT: Do we have a witness?

MR. SCHAR: Yes.

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THE COURT: Bring him back in.

(Jury in.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Mr. Ferguson, you may proceed.

THE WITNESS: I hit the microphone. Can you still

hear me?

MR. FERGUSON: I can hear you now.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. A couple of terms in the context of the Dawa that I'd like

to follow up on before we move on to the next section.

The term "economic jihad" came up earlier, and I

think there was -- one of the objections was that it was your

term. What is economic jihad?

A. Economic jihad is, first of all, just the translation of

the Arabic term "jihad bin mal." It's a term used a lot by

those who are trying to raise funds for Islamic causes. It's

certainly not a term that I made up. Individuals like Sheikh

Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Hizballah, has used it many

times.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection, Judge.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi has used it many times.

MR. DEUTSCH: I object to just floating in something

that's irrelevant and prejudicial. This case is not about

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that.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And is what you were discussing before we broke with

respect to fundraising and the utilization of funds in the

Dawa context for purposes other than social needs, is that

part of economic jihad?

A. Yes.

Q. And you used the term "proselytizing." What does that

mean in this particular context?

A. To proselytize is trying to bring someone else to your

religion. Many religions engage in proselytizing. Islam

believes in the need to bring others who are not adherent to

Islam to convert --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- to Islam and bring --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- others close.

THE COURT: What is your objection?

MR. MOFFITT: Object on the basis of the fact that he

is not a religious expert.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. He has already

addressed the context that he is making comments regarding

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religion in.

You may proceed.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. That was it.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. All right.

The social branch, charitable branch, the Dawa.

Let's move on to the political branch.

How is it structured and structured with relation,

keep in mind, to the Covenant that we were discussing earlier?

The political.

A. The political wing has a consultative council or a Shura

Council led by the group's outside leadership. What I mean by

"outside leadership" are those leaders outside the West Bank

and Gaza. The outside leadership of Hamas is today based in

Damascus, Syria.

Under that Shura Council, there are various

committees for the various activities that Hamas carries out.

There will be a Media Committee. There will be a Charity

Committee. There will be a Military Committee. And on the

ground in the West Bank and Gaza, there will be parallel

committees -- media committees, charity committees, military

committees -- that will report to those committees.

Now, there's also Hamas leadership, including

political leadership, on the inside. And by "inside," I mean

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within the West Bank and Gaza, meaning on the ground in the

West Bank and Gaza.

Q. Let me just stop you for a moment.

Inside the West Bank and Gaza. Everything's

beyond -- what's Israel?

A. For Hamas, Israel would be considered outside. Often they

refer to it as "48," meaning a reference to the 1948 war.

There are many Palestinians or Arabs of ethnic

Palestinian descent in Israel proper.

Q. You discussed this governing council with committees with

respect to the outside. Is there a parallel with respect to

the inside?

A. There's not a pure committee as it were, but there has

traditionally been a leadership. As we said yesterday, Hamas

was founded in Gaza by the leadership in Gaza. The key

founder and spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yasin, was in Gaza,

as were some of the other individuals we talked about

yesterday like Abdel Aziz Al-Rantisi, Mahmoud Al-Zahar. We

talked about yesterday Jamil Hamami in the West Bank. So,

there are political leaders in the West Bank and Gaza, as

well. And together they make up the internal leadership.

Sometimes people refer to a third aspect of the

political leadership, meaning -- referring to the Hamas

leaders who are in jail -- in Israeli jails. But, usually,

scholars include them under the overall term of the leaders in

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the inside, meaning those who are within West Bank, Gaza, in

this case Israeli jails.

Q. What's the relationship between the councils and

committees on the outside -- and I think you indicated

Damascus is where they're currently headquartered -- and those

on the inside, meaning West Bank and Gaza?

A. The overall leadership is on the outside. Khalid Mishal,

who is today the head of the Political Bureau, is considered

the head of Hamas. They have overall responsibility and

oversight and direction, and very often funding, for all of

the Hamas activities: Political activities, social welfare

activities and the military activities.

Q. Who have held the topmost leadership positions of the

political wing on the outside during the existence of Hamas?

A. Today it is Khalid Mishal, and before him it was Mousa Abu

Marzook. Marzook today is the Deputy Chief.

Q. Now, you indicated the outside oversees a number of

different committees handling different types of activity.

How hands-on is their role in directing various activities?

A. It varies. By and large, it is oversight and direction,

providing funding. Sometimes they will decide when attacks

should happen, for example. But very rarely will they be

involved in choosing a specific target.

There is really unanimity in the academic community

about the fact that the Political Bureau oversees the other

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two, the social and military wings of Hamas. Human Rights

Watch, for example, has said that there is abundant evidence

that the military wing of Hamas answers to the political wing.

The Jordanians kicked the political office of Hamas

out of that country. Before being in Damascus, Syria, where

they are now, the Hamas Political Bureau was based in Amman,

Jordan, until it was kicked out in 1999 not for engaging in

political activities, but for hoarding arms and engaging in

military activities, according to the Jordanian officials.

Q. One of the spheres of activities with respect to these

committees on the outside you mentioned is media. What role

does the Media Committee and activities out of the political

branch perform?

A. As we saw in the Hamas charter, media is extremely

important to Hamas, in terms of everything from producing the

living wills of martyrs to pushing forward its ideological

agenda. Its engagement in the battle of ideas against secular

Palestinian political leadership is robust.

Again, as the Hamas charter has made clear, Hamas

disagrees vehemently with secular or non-religious Palestinian

leadership; it disagrees vehemently with Palestinian secular

leaderships engaging in peace negotiations with Israel; and,

disagrees vehemently with the concept of a two-state solution.

All of that is at the core of Hamas' media campaign.

Q. And has Hamas had a principal spokesperson operating out

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of the political branch during the course of its history?

A. It's had several. At some times, Ibrahim Rousha was

operating out of Amman, Jordan, was the principal spokesman.

Abdel Aziz Rantisi has been a key spokesman and later leader

of the group, first out of Lebanon, where a large number of

Hamas and other militants had been deported, and then later in

Gaza.

Today, there are several spokesmen and Khalid Mishal

and Mousa Abu Marzook both do a lot of their own media.

Q. Does the political wing or branch of Hamas, as it has

conducted itself over its history, have representatives in

other countries in the region?

A. It does.

Q. Would you please elaborate on that?

A. Hamas will have representatives in countries that it

perceives as friendly. Traditionally, these have been

countries like the Sudan, Iran, Yemen. And some of its

leaders -- I'm sorry, representatives -- to some of those

countries have been people like Hamas leader Mohammed Syam,

Imad Al-Alami and others.

Q. You mentioned the name Imad Al-Alami.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission to approach, Judge?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Where has Imad Al-Alami been posted in the past?

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A. In the past, he has been a representative to Iran in the

capital Tehran. Today he is believed to be in Damascus and

spend some time in Lebanon.

Q. And within the political branch, has he been directly

involved in any of the particular committee spheres you've

been discussing?

A. Imad Al-Alami has been tied specifically to the Military

Committee.

Q. I'm showing you what's marked Levitt Photo 6.

(Document tendered.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. I ask you if you recognize the individual depicted in that

exhibit?

A. This is Imad Al-Alami.

Q. And how are you able to identify him as such?

A. This picture has been in the media many times.

MR. FERGUSON: Permission -- sorry, seek to admit

Photo 6 and publish.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. MOFFITT: No, ma'am.

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch?

MR. DEUTSCH: For what it's worth, no objection.

THE COURT: So admitted.

(Government Exhibit Levitt Photo 6 received in

evidence.)

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MR. DEUTSCH: Yes.

THE COURT: You may publish.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Does the political branch or leadership outside the

territories exercise any control over the Dawa or the social

welfare branch you've been discussing?

A. It does.

Q. And how does it do that?

A. It does that primarily by controlling much of the

pursestrings. The political branch won't necessarily engage

in all of the fundraising for Hamas, but it does oversee the

disbursal.

And, so, by virtue of being able to control the

funds, the Hamas Political Committee can make decisions about

who raises funds; how those funds are sent; who receives those

funds; and, also, when funds are earmarked for other activity,

including there have been several instances that have been

documented where funds that were raised specifically for

charitable purposes were earmarked after the fact by the

Political Committee for military activity.

Q. You indicated a couple minutes ago that the Political

Bureau is involved in the oversight or management of some of

the military activities, but may not be directly involved in

specifying the sites or specific attacks. Given that

relationship, how is it that the political branch maintains

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any sort of accountability over the activities of the military

branch?

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection. Assumes that there is such

accountability. Assumes a fact not --

THE COURT: Objection to form sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Is there some manner by which the political branch

maintains accountability over the activities of the military

branch?

A. Hamas political leaders have made many, many statements

speaking on behalf of the Qassam Brigades, the Hamas terrorist

wing. It's for that reason, as I mentioned earlier, that

Human Rights Watch said there is, in their words --

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection. He's already said that

once. We don't need him to say it, again. Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You can finish your answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- that there is abundant evidence that the Hamas

Political Committee oversees the Military Committee.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Over the course of its history, has the political branch

of Hamas made or maintained relationships with other

Palestinian and Islamist groups or organizations?

A. It has.

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Q. And is it distinct from relations in other countries? How

does it engage those relationships?

A. The Hamas Political Committee reserves for itself the

right to establish relationships with other groups, especially

Palestinian groups. Hamas leaders in Damascus meet with the

leaders of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hizballah, other

organizations. They've also attended conferences throughout

the Middle East where they have met one another, as well.

Q. You did not mention the PLO. The PLO is specifically in

the Covenant. What is Hamas' relationship, or has it been,

with the PLO -- Palestinian Liberation Organization -- during

the course of its history?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Relevance.

THE COURT: What is the relevance?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, the witness has testified that

the PLO is a principal actor in the pursuit of peace and a

two-state solution, which Hamas is ideologically and actively

opposed to. The detailing of the nature of the

relationship -- how it works with political branch,

particularly -- is what is being elicited here.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You may answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. It's been a very tense relationship. Again, as the Hamas

charter stated, Hamas has a level of respect for the militant

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attacks the PLO conducted in the past. Once the PLO

recognized Israel, foreswore violence and began negotiating a

two-state solution with Israel, Hamas became very opposed to

them and has participated in what Hamas and the other groups

that have participated in this group called the Rejectionist

Front, meaning groups -- a grouping of Palestinian

organizations that reject the PLO's and Israel's peace

process.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. You indicated the political branch sits and meets in

conferences with some of these other rejectionist groups. Are

you aware of specific conferences or meetings that occur,

either individually or periodically?

MR. MOFFITT: I'm going to object and ask to approach

the bench, please.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, this whole notion of

rejecting a two-state solution, that's a political

determination. There's nothing illegal, nothing wrong,

there's nothing -- about having -- making a decision as a

Palestinian, or even as an American, to say that the two-state

solution isn't the appropriate one. It's almost being treated

as if the idea if somebody rejects the two-state solution,

it's treated as being criminal or bad thoughts or a bad idea.

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And I don't think that's fair.

You can certainly reject the two-state solution and

have your own reasons for rejecting it that don't have

anything to do with Hamas. Hamas is not the only organization

in the occupied territories that rejects the two-state

solution.

MR. FERGUSON: And that's -- I agree with all that.

The issue is how you go about rejecting the two-state

solution. And when you do it with violence, that is not

countenance and that is not legal under the law. And when you

do it from the United States with support for organizations

that engage in violence, including specifically Hamas, you are

violating American law.

And this is part of a misnomer that was created by a

misstatement in the law in the opening statements of both the

defendants here that this case hinges on the designation of

Hamas. It doesn't. The direction of funds overseas or

internally within the United States for the purpose of

facilitating murder, maiming, kidnapping, it's a violation of

the Money Laundering Act and it always has been. This

constitutes RICO predicates.

And, so, this is just part of the misnomer that has

been started out here with opening arguments and that I think

were improper. And it's completely appropriate in this

particular context, since the issue is not -- since the issue

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is ultimately what --

MR. BLOOM: Excuse me, it's a little loud, please.

MR. FERGUSON: -- with respect to Mr. Moffitt's

client, is what -- the intent of Dr. Ashqar was with respect

to his possession of materials, with respect to his financial

transactions, with respect to his communications, with respect

to his fax activities in which he was an intermediary.

It's the intent and whether or not the mere espousing

or belief of a particular outcome trips over into proactive

support that violates the laws of the United States.

THE COURT: Mr. Moffitt?

MR. MOFFITT: I still suggest that mere association

with a group that has a multifarious purpose is not illegal in

this country.

THE COURT: And you are right. And they will be

instructed on the law at the end. Every --

MR. MOFFITT: But I'm not suggesting that you

instruct them at this point. I'm just suggesting that the air

and elements here in this room is that no one can have a

different position other than the two-state solution without

violating the law. And that's wrong.

THE COURT: I disagree. They are introducing

evidence. They are not saying that every piece of evidence is

criminal. They are laying the context which the door has been

opened on and there have been arguments for that.

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You are free to cross-examine. And you are

absolutely right in your statement of the law that mere

association with a bifarious organization is not criminal.

And I will instruct them on that. But --

MR. MOFFITT: I understand.

THE COURT: -- that does not mean they cannot elicit

this, in part, context testimony and, in second part,

testimony explaining the bifarious nature.

MR. MOFFITT: I understand. But what is happening

here is there is one solution to the Israeli-Palestinian

conflict that is being elevated to being right, by the

questioning of the prosecutors here; and, that's the two-state

solution.

There's no suggestion by their expert that there's

any other way to solve this problem and -- within the

framework of the law. The suggestion is that if you don't

agree with the two-state solution, you're somehow violating

the law.

MR. FERGUSON: It's a wonderful line of crossexamination, if --

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: -- it's relevant, actually, on the

basis of the law. But this is cross-examination.

THE COURT: I agree.

Objection overruled.

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MR. MOFFITT: Would you note a continuing objection,

please?

THE COURT: Yes. It will be noted and continuing

overruled.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: You may proceed.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. I think where we were left hanging there was with respect

to your awareness of specific periodic meetings or conferences

that Hamas and its political branch participates in with these

other rejectionist organizations?

A. Correct.

Q. All right.

Are you aware of specific conferences or meetings?

A. I am.

Q. And can you describe some of them for us?

A. Hamas has attended meetings in Khartoum, Sudan. There has

been an almost annual meeting in Tehran.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, excuse me. Can we just get a

date?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. What do you mean by "almost annual"?

A. Just about every year.

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Q. Going back how far?

A. Throughout the '90s for certain. I don't know earlier.

The Khartoum meeting, I think, was around 1993.

Q. And the Tehran meetings, who are the participants, what's

the subject matter?

A. Iran hosts these meetings and as a -- one of the sources

of funding for Hamas and other similar groups. It calls

together many of the groups that it finances, including

Palestinian Islamic Jihad, various other Palestinian groups,

Hizballah. And the topic of discussion is --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- the --

MR. MOFFITT: I don't believe Hizballah is a

Palestinian group.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I think the question was what

other rejectionist groups.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Are you done?

A. Yeah.

Q. Which parts of the Hamas political leadership have

attended these meetings, to your knowledge, in Tehran?

A. The leaders of the Political Bureau, people like Khalid

Mishal, Mousa Abu Marzook.

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Q. How about Imad Al-Alami?

A. When he was in Tehran, sure.

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm sorry, did we get a year for that

Tehran meeting? I didn't hear it if we did.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I --

THE COURT: Ask what year.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Which years?

A. Throughout the 1990s.

Q. You've referenced political activities on the inside,

meaning the West Bank and Gaza. Throughout the 1990s, did

Hamas ever participate in any national elections for positions

that would have some authority over all of that territory?

A. Not in the 1990s.

Q. And why, to your understanding, was that the case?

A. Hamas' position at the time was that to participate in

national elections, that were called for under the rubric,

under the umbrella of the Oslo Accords, would be, in essence,

to acknowledge and accept the Oslo Accords and, thereby, also

acknowledging and accepting the existence of Israel.

Rejecting the entire peace process, Hamas refused to

participate in anything that was the by-product of that peace

process.

Q. And in connection with Hamas, have you heard use of the

term "syndicates"?

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A. I have.

Q. And what are syndicates in that context?

A. Well, Hamas has been very active politically, even if it

wasn't at a national level. So, Hamas would run candidates

for syndicates or unions -- meaning the umbrella organizations

for teachers or for engineers or doctors or lawyers -- often

with great success, as well as on student campuses and student

councils.

And this fit with Hamas' ideology of working from the

grassroots up. By virtue of having a political presence on

the ground at these very local political organizations, Hamas

was able to influence them towards their way of thinking in

terms of their indoctrination, Islamizing of Palestinian

society.

Q. And does that activity extend to universities?

A. It does.

Q. And how does it extend to universities?

A. Well, both in terms of teachers unions but, also, perhaps

more importantly, student councils. The West Bank and Gaza

has had a very robust political culture for a very long time,

perhaps nowhere more so than on college campuses. Student

council elections are fiercely contested between a variety of

groups from across the spectrum, from communist groups to

secular groups, Islamist groups, violent groups, not violent

groups. To control the campuses is to have significant

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influence among the student body.

Q. And are there any particular universities within Gaza or

the West Bank that over the years have been closely associated

with Hamas?

A. Over time, some of that has shifted. Some universities

were known as more secular. Some were more -- known as more

Islamic. In recent years, the An-Najah University in Nablus

has been dominated by Hamas.

The only university that has been widely cited as

dominated by Hamas -- in fact, created by the Palestinian

Muslim Brotherhood -- is the Islamic University in Gaza. And

many scholars -- Ziad Abu-Amr on the Palestinian side, Meir

Hatina on the Israeli side, and many others -- have all cited

to Islamic University in Gaza as a key Palestinian Muslim

Brotherhood and Hamas stronghold.

Q. And have any of the founding members of Hamas played any

leadership role within the Islamic University in Gaza?

A. Many. Abdel Aziz Al-Rantisi for one, but there are

several more.

Q. All right.

I'd like to turn your attention to what's been

referred to as the military wing. What organizational form

has it taken within Hamas?

A. The key form for the military or terrorist wing is what's

known as the Iz Al-Din Al-Qassam Brigades, named after the Iz

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Al-Din Al-Qassam that we referenced in the charter, the Syrian

Muslim Brotherhood fighter who led a jihad -- a holy war --

against the then-British occupiers of Palestine.

And it is the face of the Pales- -- the Hamas

military wing.

Q. And how is the military wing itself constituted?

A. It's compartmentalized as any covert entity is. And this

is an important point. Parts of Hamas are overt. The

political wing of Hamas is inherently overt. It's on

television. The social welfare wing of Hamas is inherently

overt. In both those cases that's up to a point, because both

those wings also support the military wing. That activity is

covert or hidden.

The military wing itself is a covert entity. You

can't walk -- you know, there's no office identified for the

average individual. Cells are compartmentalized, meaning

they're separated from one another so that if one is

infiltrated or caught, they won't be able to say anything

about the other cells. It's traditional operational security.

And they're built in such a way as to be able to have

direct contact to a leader. A leader may know of more than

one cell, but there are very few of those. And cells will

often have connections directly back to the Political

Committee -- when it was in Amman, Jordan, there; and, then,

afterwards to today, in Damascus, Syria.

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Q. So, how does the organization overall gather knowledge and

a sense of the collective of activities of these

compartmentalized units?

A. It's the political wing that has that oversight and

overall direction.

Q. And how do they keep track of the activities?

A. They will document them. They will claim responsibility

for the attacks that have been carried out. They're quite

careful to do that via television; media; communiques; now, in

the age of modern media, through the Internet. And they will

document their activities.

Q. Does the political branch in this regard act to gather

information from the field to determine what sorts of impacts

various attacks have had or frustrated attacks have had?

A. Absolutely. In order for the Political Committee to have

this kind of general oversight, decision-making role and

responsibility, it has to be able to know what's happening on

the ground: Is there sufficient funding for various

activities? Are cells structured properly? Are there

sufficient recruits? What's working well, what's not working

well.

So, there will be regular efforts to determine what

is the status of activity on the ground in the West Bank and

Gaza.

Q. And how does the political branch act to determine and

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assess what elements of the organization have been compromised

by arrests that -- of individual members?

A. One of the goals of the military wing is to eliminate

those who are believed to have served as collaborators with

the Israelis; that is to say, Palestinians. And a great many

Palestinians have been killed by Hamas, as well.

Q. Does the political branch in any way, shape or form

maintain archives or gather information from various sources

to inform their sense of what is going on in the field?

A. Certainly.

Q. And what are those archives generally comprised of?

A. Communiques, statements, copies of letters, communications

back and forth. It could include financial documentation. It

would include directives on how to maintain security, how to

behave under interrogation if captured. It would include

proselytizing and indoctrinating material. Really, the whole

gamut. To be able to sit at the top of an organization and

make, you know, high-level decisions, strategic decisions, one

has to be aware of the full gamut of the activity.

Q. And would it include court records and confessions?

A. It would if it -- yeah.

Q. Where does the military recruit its personnel from?

A. The largest source for the military to recruit -- really,

first to spot, radicalize and, then, recruit -- its operatives

is within the Dawa, within the social welfare infrastructure.

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Q. We talked some about the Dawa, the political and the

military wings. Where does the money come from to fund the

activities of all of these wings?

A. Money comes from a variety of sources. Some countries

fund Hamas, like Iran, as we mentioned. It is believed that

the vast majority of funding for Hamas comes from donations

raised internationally and funneled into the territories.

Some of those donations, believed to be a very small

percentage, will actually be raised for the purpose of --

express purpose of -- military activity. But there are very

few core Hamas supporters that knowingly and willingly provide

large amounts of money for Hamas operations.

So, instead, the vast majority of funds are raised

under the rubric of supporting needy Palestinians who are, in

fact, needy; and, supporting Palestinian social welfare

services, which do, in fact, provide social welfare services,

but also provide funds to the rest of Hamas.

Money being fungible, it's very difficult to document

how Hamas spends its money once it gets to its final

destination, which is the whole point of the enterprise.

Q. It's been suggested earlier in the case that there is no

such thing as Palestinian banks. From your work in the field

of terrorism financing, including your present position for

the Treasury Department, are there Palestinian banks?

A. There are banks in Palestine. Some of them are

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Palestinian banks.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection as to time frame.

THE COURT: You can clarify that.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Would you please put a time frame on the existence of

Palestinian banks?

A. As early as the 1990s, there were banks. In fact, at one

point, Hamas ran banks of its own.

THE COURT: Ask your next question.

That was a sneeze, not a comment.

(Laughter.)

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And --

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge --

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. -- it's been suggested earlier --

THE COURT: Wait. There is an objection.

MR. DEUTSCH: The witness keeps giving this answer

"as early as the 1990s," which could be 1990 or 1999. If he

doesn't know, that's fine. If he knows, I'd like a more

specific date of his expertise as to the alleged Palestinian

banks.

THE COURT: You can see if he knows more

specifically.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

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Q. Do you know more specifically within the 1990s?

A. I believe there have been banks in the West Bank and Gaza

throughout the 1990s, including the -- 1990, '91. I don't

have the details at my fingertips. I do know that Hamas had

some financial institutions, that were referred to as banks of

its own, that were operating also in the early 1990s. I don't

have dates at my fingertips.

Q. And it's been suggested earlier in the proceedings that

Palestinians are not able to use Israeli banks. From your

work in the field of terrorism financing and with respect to

the Treasury Department, is that the case?

A. Because of the nature of the occupation, it is sometimes

difficult for Palestinians to travel. But Palestinians can

and do maintain bank accounts at Israeli banks.

Q. Going back to the military, I want to focus your attention

on the tactics of the military wing of Hamas, Al-Qassam over

the course of its history.

What were the hallmarks, generally, of the early

terrorist activities of the Al-Qassam Brigades?

A. In the 1980s, both before Hamas was founded officially

under that name -- meaning when the people who founded Hamas

were still acting under the name of the Palestinian Muslim

Brotherhood -- and, then, throughout the end of the 1980s,

after Hamas was established under that name, the group was

carrying out primarily shooting attacks, stabbing attacks and

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kidnappings.

Q. Shooting and stabbing and kidnappings with respect to

specific types of targets?

A. Usually, Israeli soldiers or police officers.

Q. And were there any notable successes, so to speak, in the

1980s in this regard?

A. The first few -- and because they were the first few, they

received such significant media and diplomatic attention --

were the kidnappings and murders of Ilan Sasportas -- Avi

Sasportas -- Ilan Sa'doan --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. -- and Nissam Toledano.

MR. MOFFITT: Dr. Levitt is acting as judge and jury

with respect to this, and I have a problem with that, as I

noted yesterday.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt --

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, I'll lay more of a foundation.

THE COURT: Okay. Lay your foundation.

Objection sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. What's your basis for associating these two particular

kidnappings and murders with Hamas?

A. The Sasportas and Sa'doan kidnappings in particular were

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attributed to Sheikh Ahmed Yasin in part, his participation in

them. He is the -- one of the -- key founders and the

spiritual leader of Hamas and made statements to Israeli

authorities acknowledging his role in those attacks.

Q. And was there any consequence to Sheikh Yasin with respect

to these two particular operations?

A. He was arrested and detained. And the State Department

acknowledged that Sheikh Yasin --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Objection. I don't -- the

State Department doesn't decide guilt or innocence.

MR. FERGUSON: It's a foundation objection. It's

not -- this goes with the speaking objection.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Was there a determination of guilt or innocence with

respect to Sheikh Yasin in association with these two

operations?

A. Israeli authorities found him guilty, and the State

Department documented that.

Q. And was he sentenced to a prison term for his association

with these two operations?

A. He was.

Q. All right.

You've given us the early hallmarks. Did those

hallmarks change at some point in time?

A. They did.

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Q. And approximately when did they change?

A. Around 1992, '93, Hamas started to attempt and, then,

successfully carry out bombing attacks. At first,

straightforward bombing attacks, meaning not a suicide attack.

And, then, after 1993 -- and certainly picked up in 1994 and

has continued since -- Hamas' hallmark has been the suicide

bombing.

Q. And would you please define that term as you use it?

A. Suicide bombing?

Q. Suicide bombing.

A. Suicide bombing is a bombing in which the perpetrator

carries the explosive to the target on his or her person.

Sometimes in a vest with the explosives sewn in so that it can

be concealed with other clothing. Other times in a knapsack

with some other means of concealment.

It's a particularly effective attack because with a

human being there, decisions can be made. If there are

authorities there, the bomber can pick another target. The

bomber can move to the most densely-populated part of the bus

or the restaurant, or whatever the target is, to kill as many

people as possible.

And it also has a more significant psychological

impact than a traditional attack. Terrorism is not only

about --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Rule 704(b).

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THE COURT: What is your response?

MR. MOFFITT: Not an expert in psychology.

THE COURT: What is your response, whether or not he

is qualified to give the that particular opinion?

MR. FERGUSON: I'm going to lay some foundation.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, have you studied, researched and analyzed

specific suicide bombing attacks?

A. I have.

Q. And have you published on the subject with respect to

specific suicide bombing attacks?

A. I have.

Q. And what's the context for your publications on the

subject?

A. Primarily, the book that I published through Yale

University Press.

Q. And how about in any other places?

A. I've written about suicide bombing through the Washington

Institute many times, but nowhere as in as much depth as the

book.

Q. I'm sorry?

A. Nowhere in as much depth as in the book.

Q. And have you researched and analyzed the impact of suicide

bombings on public events, specifically with reference to

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Hamas' ideological objectives?

A. I have.

Q. And in what context have you researched, analyzed and

written on that subject?

A. In not only the context of the book that I wrote on Hamas,

but in the context of my Ph.D. dissertation.

Q. And tell the jury, please, in some more detail exactly

what the subject of your Ph.D. dissertation was.

A. The dissertation is on the impact of terrorist attacks on

ongoing negotiations. I studied both acts carried out by

Jewish terrorists and Islamist terrorists impacting the Oslo

peace process from 1994 to 1996.

Q. And, in that context, have you interviewed military

operatives and suicide bombing operatives of Hamas?

A. In the context of the Hamas book, not the dissertation.

Q. Okay.

And how about victims of suicide bombings?

A. I have.

Q. And have you had related to you in that context the

particular impact of suicide bombings?

A. I have.

Q. Emotionally and psychologically?

A. Yes.

MR. MOFFITT: I suggest to you he still is not a

psychologist. He is not qualified --

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THE COURT: I do not think he is done with his

foundation yet.

Or maybe you are.

MR. FERGUSON: I am.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: He's still not a psychologist. He's

not qualified to give an expert opinion on the psychology of

what happened.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, the question was not with

respect to psychology. The question was with respect to the

attributes of suicide bombing as it relates to effective

military tactics of Hamas in the service of its ideology.

MR. MOFFITT: That was not the question.

THE COURT: That was not the question. Rephrase your

question.

And, then, if you want to object after he poses it,

you may.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. What, in your opinion, Dr. Levitt, from your field work

and your analysis, makes suicide bombing particularly

effective or not effective as a tool used by the Hamas

military in the service of its objectives?

A. First of all, as I mentioned, tactically it has the

greatest potential for success because a suicide bomber can

make decisions, change targets, evade police, and move to a

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place to inflict most casualties.

But terrorism scholars have widely explained that

terrorism is not only about the impact on the immediate

victims, but terrorism is about -- it's a form of political

violence intended to literally terrorize the rest of the

population, not just those who have been injured or killed.

And to that effect, suicide bombing has a much more

significant terrorizing impact on society because you are

dealing with someone who cannot be deterred. Facing an entity

that is willing to -- a person who is willing to -- kill him

or herself just so long as they kill you, too, is

psychologically significant and is terrorizing to populations.

MR. MOFFITT: Once again, I object to his commentary

on the psychology. He's not an expert.

THE COURT: Objection overruled in response to the

response he just gave.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. From the exchange that we just had, you've indicated that

you've researched, studied, become familiar with numerous

attacks attributed to Hamas; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How does one -- and you indicated that Hamas, the military

branch, operates in this somewhat covert and compartmentalized

fashion; is that correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. So, how does one in your field assess what organization --

specifically, whether it's Hamas -- is responsible for a

particular attack?

A. Well, first and foremost, Hamas issues claims of

responsibility for its attacks. It's very careful to do so.

I can think of only one instance where Hamas delayed

claiming responsibility for attack. That was the attack on

Mike's Place, a bar next to the U.S. Embassy, that was carried

out by two British Muslims of Pakistani descent. And it's

believed that Hamas delayed that claim of responsibility --

which it did eventually issue -- because Great Britain at the

time was deciding whether or not to ban Hamas, and which it

eventually did.

MR. FERGUSON: And the reference to Mike's Place, to

save Mr. Deutsch here, that's 2002.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you.

Exactly.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson, you can save the side

comments. Just ask a question.

MR. FERGUSON: No, that was actually in deference to

his desire for a particular date.

THE COURT: Ask your questions.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. In the 2002 -- that was your -- it's in --

A. Yes.

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Q. -- 2002?

All right.

Hamas' claims of responsibility. How do you come to

know if Hamas has claimed responsibility?

A. Hamas leaders will go on television. They will issue

communiques. They will issue claims of responsibility on

their Web site. Very frequently, Hamas has preferred

appearing on Hizballah's Al-Manar television -- satellite

television -- station to issue its claims of responsibility.

These are also very public -- and intended to be very

public -- events. They receive significant media coverage.

The claims of responsibility receive significant media

coverage. You can run a Lexis/Nexis search on any one of

these attacks and get somewhere between probably 20 and 200

hits which will include documentation of the attack and of the

claim of responsibility.

Q. You mentioned Web sites. Are these general Web sites or

are they Hamas-specific Web sites?

A. Hamas runs several Web sites of its own and will issue

responsibility -- claims of responsibility -- for attacks on

those Web sites.

Q. Are these Web sites accessible to the public?

A. Certainly.

Q. And what -- and have you -- you've examined some of these

Web sites yourself?

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A. I have.

Q. Are they strictly in Arabic?

A. No, not all.

Q. What other languages are they published in?

A. Hamas has Web sites in English and Russian, Malay. It

runs these Web sites from various places throughout the world

and they're in several languages. I know I'm leaving some

out.

Q. What is your understanding as to the reason why Hamas so

readily and quickly takes claims of responsibility for these

attacks?

A. Hamas claims responsibility for attacks as a means of

opposing peace negotiations. Frequently, attacks are timed to

do just that. As we said earlier, Hamas has a tense and

confrontational relationship with the PLO and the Fatah party

that was run by Yasir Arafat and was, until the beginning of

this year, the dominant party in the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas would frequently portray itself as taking brave

action at great personal sacrifice -- which is kind of the

definition of suicide attacks in particular -- and contrast

that with the PA's gains at the negotiating table, and make

the argument that the Palestinian Authority was gaining very

little; whereas, Hamas was fighting for the rights of all

Palestinians.

So, the military attacks were always rolled into its

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larger political agenda.

Q. This media publication of attacks with claims of

responsibility, which branch of Hamas is responsible for

issuing them to the public?

A. The political wing.

Q. Does the political wing articulate them itself?

A. Yes.

Q. All right.

Hamas' own words, its claims of responsibility, what

other sources of information did you rely upon or do you rely

upon in your field to make a determination whether a specific

attack is properly attributed to Hamas?

A. Well, first of all, as I said, you know, if an attack is

attributed to Hamas in one or two sources, it's probably

incorrect. This vetting process we discussed earlier, there's

a little bit of common sense. And, so, I have seen examples

of attacks that were purportedly attributed -- or were

attributed to have purportedly been carried out by Hamas and I

haven't included them in lists of Hamas attacks because I

haven't been able to prove it.

But beyond the universe of, kind of, media coverage

and public documentation, I have interviewed Hamas officials.

I've interviewed various government officials. I've relied on

police and other government documentation, of which there is

plenty.

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Q. Have you reviewed court records?

A. I have.

Q. Have you reviewed police files?

A. I have.

Q. Are we simply talking -- I mean, to this point, you've

been speaking about the statements of others, some more

reliable than others, of course. But are there any types of

other materials besides specific statements, confessions,

articulations by politicians that you rely upon?

A. Often the police files will include DNA evidence. Often,

once they identify who the perpetrator is, Hamas will

reconfirm that he was a member of the organization. I don't

know any cases where it's not clear in the end who carried out

the attack.

Q. And we discussed earlier the preparation and issuance of

martyr wills, videos by the political branch. Are they

utilized as part of this process of claiming responsibility

for specific attacks?

A. They are. After the attack, the living will will

frequently be published, sometimes provided to television

media, sometimes placed on the Internet. And that, again,

leaves little doubt as to who carried out the attack and why.

Q. You've indicated that you've encountered cases where there

has not been widespread publication of a claim of

responsibility and you, therefore, put it to the side. Are

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there situations that you have encountered in your research

and writing --

MR. MOFFITT: I object. I have a concern and I don't

want to voice -- necessarily voice -- it in front of the jury.

THE COURT: Let us have a sidebar.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. MOFFITT: My concern is I'm not sure what the

government is seeking to prove through the admission of

Dr. Levitt's opinion about whether Hamas conducted an act. If

the government is seeking to prove predicate acts through

Dr. Levitt, I have an objection to this. It's not a way to

prove a predicate act. A predicate act has to be proven

beyond a reasonable doubt. And you can't put a person on the

witness stand and simply say somebody did something and that's

-- as an expert -- and, then, they did it, for purposes of the

jury.

So, I'm concerned at this particular time about what

is the basis for the admission of this evidence and if the

government is seeking to prove predicate acts through

Dr. Levitt's expert opinion.

MR. FERGUSON: First, the charge before the Court and

the jury is not a substantive RICO count. It is a --

THE COURT: Right.

MR. FERGUSON: -- conspiracy.

THE COURT: Right.

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MR. FERGUSON: And, so, the proof of predicate acts

is not required and proof of predicate acts is not required

beyond a reasonable doubt here.

Second, we've already had discussions on this

subject, Judge, with respect to the prior-provided draft of

the Hamas timeline. And the defense has raised all sorts of

objections about how one knows that these attacks even existed

and how it's Hamas and what the basis is for the attribution.

And I am laying the foundation for all of that so that it is

fully understood exactly what this witness relies upon.

And with respect to the -- sort of, the -- final

point here being made by Mr. Moffitt, really this is about

weight.

THE COURT: Right.

MR. FERGUSON: And if he wants to file a Rule 29

motion at the end of all of this, he can do that. But beyond

that, this is weight; and, in that sense, it is an infusion of

limiting the direct for purposes of serving cross-examination.

MR. MOFFITT: I'm not concerned about crossexamination now. And I want you to understand what I am

concerned about.

I am concerned about a single human being getting on

the witness stand and saying that people have committed

certain acts, with no background, no corroborative evidence of

any kind, no forensic evidence. He's not a forensics expert.

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In the only other case that I tried similarly to

this, the government, when it sought to prove that a

particular act occurred as a result of the PIJ, put on the

Israeli police officers. They put on -- they provided for us

the forensic tests and various other things as to whether or

not -- here, the government is simply putting on a "expert."

THE COURT: Well --

MR. MOFFITT: And I want to be clear that my

objection is that if they're seeking to prove the conspiracy

through the opinion -- mere opinion -- of Dr. Levitt, I

request a mistrial.

THE COURT: This is the first witness we have heard

from. And they have indicated they have a lot of other

witnesses.

Under the law -- and I do not know what your other

trial was about, nor do I need to know what your other trial

was about. That is not before me. There may have been

substantive RICO counts in your other trial, which that is

different than a RICO conspiracy --

MR. MOFFITT: No, it was a RICO conspiracy.

THE COURT: -- in terms of what you need to prove.

All I know is what is before me. I am not comparing

it to any other case.

The government does not, under the law, need to prove

in a RICO conspiracy all the predicate acts beyond a

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reasonable doubt. But whether or not they have met their

burden, again, is -- we are hearing their first witness.

MR. MOFFITT: I understand, ma'am, but -- and forgive

me if I'm ignorant or I'm silly or I'm --

THE COURT: No, that is not the issue.

MR. MOFFITT: I've never been in an American

courtroom where an expert can get on a witness stand and make

a claim of guilt without -- as an expert opinion. I just

never -- that's never happened before in my career. So,

naturally my insides are beginning to bubble over because

that's what I feel the government is doing. And I've never

seen this done before.

And forgive me if -- I don't mean to be

obstructionist here.

THE COURT: No, you are not being obstructionist.

MR. MOFFITT: But it seems to me that I've got to

make a record if I'm feeling uncomfortable about what's

happening here. And that's why I asked for an offer of proof

with regard to what the government intends to prove through

this witness.

Now, if they intend to prove the existence of a

conspiracy through this witness, it seems to me that they have

to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, as well.

THE COURT: They certainly do. Again, we are on the

first witness.

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Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: There's a lot going on there and I

can't unpack it all.

Obviously, what we're trying to prove here is that

the enterprise has among its means the commission of violent

acts, which is one of the components of what's been charged

here. And the defendants have joined a conspiracy that --

whose one of its primary means is to commit acts that include

murder and suicide.

We understand that we have an obligation to prove the

conspiracy, hook it up to the defendants. But this is one

component of the organization. And this is part of our proof

as to establishing that this organization, the enterprise --

of which the defendants are charged with conspiring to assist

in the furtherance of the enterprise -- has as one of its

tactics or means suicide bombings, murders, kidnappings.

We're proving up what's in the indictment, Judge.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, let me say just one thing.

It's my understanding that if you have a RICO

conspiracy and you're saying there's a criminal enterprise

that's the conspiracy, you have to show that that RICO

enterprise committed a pattern of racketeering acts. And that

means they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they

committed a pattern of racketeering acts or else it's not a

RICO conspiracy.

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MR. FERGUSON: Judge --

THE COURT: Wait.

MR. FERGUSON: The jury has been sitting here for a

while. We may have time for one short break. This might be a

good time to let them --

THE COURT: Okay. I will break and, then, hear more.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to

break until about a quarter to.

(Jury out.)

THE COURT: Do you need a break, counsel? Because we

can pick up in five minutes, if you need a break.

MR. DEUTSCH: That would be fine, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay.

Come back in five minutes.

(Brief recess.)

THE COURT: Did we lose Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: He just went downstairs to get

something, Judge; but, on the legal argument, we can continue.

THE COURT: Pardon me?

MR. SCHAR: On the legal argument, we can continue.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. SCHAR: It would be difficult to continue with

the witness.

THE COURT: And the witness is not in here?

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MR. SCHAR: No.

THE COURT: You may be seated.

And we may need Mr. Ferguson for this.

I want to be sure I understand where you are going

with Dr. Levitt in terms of what he is ultimately going to

opine on.

And, Mr. Moffitt, do not go away, please.

MR. MOFFITT: No, I didn't intend to go away, your

Honor.

THE COURT: Okay.

What ultimately is he going to opine as to? Is his

ultimate opinion going to be Hamas is responsible for these

suicide bombings?

MR. SCHAR: Yes, Judge.

He's not going to opine that these defendants were

part of a conspiracy.

THE COURT: Right, I understand that.

MR. SCHAR: But based on his expertise -- and that's

the foundation that's being laid now, in terms of all the

claims of responsibility, the public attribution, his review

of certain files and everything else -- is that Hamas has

publicly claimed and is responsible for these particular

attacks.

I mean, it's -- in some ways, it's almost -- I guess,

I'm surprised that there's even a debate about this in the

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sense that this is what Hamas does. They get out and take

credit for these particular attacks.

THE COURT: But it is different to say they get out

and take credit for it, which he can certainly --

MR. SCHAR: Well, in certain instances --

THE COURT: Well, wait. Let me finish.

MR. SCHAR: Okay.

THE COURT: He can certainly testify about that,

based on his expertise, that Hamas has taken credit for a

particular incident.

But if I understand Mr. Moffitt correctly, it is the

next step that he is objecting to, that, "They took credit for

it and, based on all my other experience, therefore, Hamas did

it."

MR. SCHAR: Well, in some instances, I believe,

Judge -- and maybe we do need Mr. Ferguson for this. So,

we'll address it. But I will give you my understanding, at

least in part.

He's actually interviewed certain Hamas terrorists

who have admitted responsibility for particular attacks or

attempted attacks. Obviously, he knows of additional other

confessions of people who have accepted responsibility for

attacks. The martyrs' wills don't just suggest

responsibility; they say, "We're the ones; that we did it;

and, we're Hamas."

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So, this is not just a claim of responsibility. This

is admissions by the actual enterprise that they are

responsible and did do these attacks.

So, I don't -- and I think the list that we've

narrowed down -- I want to check with Mr. Ferguson -- are ones

that are clearly attributable in some way to not just claims

of responsibility, but actually having done them. For

instance, Sheikh Yasin went to jail in particular for the

particular early attacks. So, there's -- it's not just, "I

read a public communique and Hamas claimed responsibility;

and, therefore, I assume that they did it." It is plus.

But I will double-check with Mr. Ferguson that

everything on that list is there.

THE COURT: But it is the next step that Mr. Moffitt

is objecting to, not just the taking credit, "Here is what the

video said, here is what the Hamas member said." It is the,

"And, then, because of that, it is my opinion that Hamas did

it."

Mr. Moffitt?

MR. MOFFITT: That is absolutely what's causing me

indigestion, your Honor.

MR. SCHAR: Let me just check with Mr. Ferguson.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. SCHAR: Let me make sure.

(Brief pause.)

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THE COURT: Are you ready?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, as I understand what was

discussed in my absence -- and I apologize, I ran down to try

to get some materials and I was unsuccessful -- what is at

issue, what is being presented here is how this witness

assesses whether or not Hamas has engaged in particular

attacks. And what --

THE COURT: Is it your intention to elicit an opinion

from him that -- you know, pick a particular attack -- "Based

on -- " whatever the factors are " -- my experience; my review

of the video of the bomber beforehand; Hamas taking credit;

therefore, Hamas, it is, in my opinion" -- Dr. Levitt --

"Hamas carried out this attack"?

MR. FERGUSON: Attack by attack by attack?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: There are hundreds of them, Judge.

THE COURT: Well, okay.

Then is it your intention to elicit from him that

Hamas carried out all of these attacks?

MR. FERGUSON: Yes.

THE COURT: That that is his opinion.

MR. FERGUSON: That that is his opinion that Hamas

carried out all of these attacks.

The idea is to lay a foundation with respect to all

of the various sources that he draws upon in order to reach an

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assessment and reach an assessment with respect to these,

including Hamas' own claims of responsibility in all the

various forms which it takes, which he's already said

issuances of declarations going to mainstream media;

statements by its leadership regarding the same, broadly

distributed; beyond that, the video wills which are published

through various types of media, which he himself has reviewed;

his interview of terrorists and his interviews of Palestinian

officials, Israeli officials; his review of court records

which contain not merely statements, although the statements

are of value; the records of conviction; the additional

evidence; the additional evidence independent of statements in

the form of what he referenced -- DNA analysis -- which ties

to a specific video will.

Beyond that, Judge, he's already referenced Web

sites. There has been and functioning a Hamas Web site in

multiple languages which includes what's called the Glory

Record in which Hamas itself says, "This is us. We did this

stuff."

Beyond that, he's going to talk about the fact that

there are publications where this is discussed, analyzed,

including publications on the Palestinian side of the ledger,

as well as the Israeli side of the ledger.

Beyond that, Judge, he's personally been at suicide

bombing sites to observe for himself their impact and their

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assessment. He's spoken to victims.

All of this informs what he is doing here in saying

that it is his opinion that these are properly attributed to

Hamas. And all of the arguments that are being raised here

are simply about the weight that is to be accorded this

witness' opinion.

THE COURT: Mr. Moffitt?

MR. MOFFITT: Absolutely not, your Honor.

If we had an individual, for instance, who was

convicted in Tennessee and we were trying him in Illinois, the

Tennessee conviction might be some evidence, but we would

still have to try him in Illinois to decide that.

THE COURT: But the distinction is he is not opining

that these particular defendants did this.

MR. MOFFITT: But it's part of this conspiracy. It

is still part of the conspiracy. He's opining that these acts

are part of the conspiracy.

The government's going to later say that they should

have known about these acts and understood that that was the

nature of the conspiracy. So, he is actually putting in

proof, for purposes of this indictment, of these acts. And

all he is -- he may be everything that they say he is. He

can't do that. He's not permitted as an expert to do that.

The government would have to -- would still have to

-- bring in -- there's probably forensics reports. There's

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probably all sorts of stuff that exist around these attacks

and the government -- that's got to be part of the

government's proof, I suggest.

It's not just to put a witness on the stand who is an

expert in terrorism to say that this enterprise -- first of

all, I assume that he can opine that there's something called

Hamas that existed. But I don't think he can opine the events

that he's suggested here actually happened as part of the

proof in this case, because I think they've got --

THE COURT: Well, that is something -- that is a

different point.

MR. MOFFITT: But --

THE COURT: I mean, you are saying he cannot testify

that these events happened?

MR. MOFFITT: No, no, no.

THE COURT: That is what you just --

MR. MOFFITT: No, no.

THE COURT: -- said.

MR. MOFFITT: What I'm saying is, if he were an

expert -- if this were a different kind of trial -- and the

only way I can analogize it is by analogy. I hope I'm not --

again, I'm having some -- I've never seen anything like this.

So, it's hard for me, on first blush, to articulate what is

going on in my own mind about it.

But it seems to me if this was an organized crime

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case and we were talking about events that a gang had

committed, you just couldn't put an organized crime person on

the witness stand, a police officer on the witness stand to

say, "In my opinion, this is what happened," and have the

Court accept it as truth and verdict.

Even when someone admits in a court or admits --

makes a confession --

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson, we only have roughly a half

hour left today. How much longer do you have with Dr. Levitt?

MR. FERGUSON: At this point, we'll be going into

Tuesday no matter what.

THE COURT: Okay.

I do not want to end, but can you --

MR. FERGUSON: Well, frankly, Judge, this is not

merely the next sequence. It is a substantial sequence, which

brings us pretty close to the end.

THE COURT: Okay.

You can go into your sequence, but without getting

his ultimate opinion attributing specific events to Hamas in

his opinion.

So, I do not want you -- because we need to discuss

this issue further. He has a half hour left. You can ask him

about these events, the people he interviewed, the video, go

through the specific events. I do not know how you are going

to conduct your testimony, but I do not want you -- soon to be

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this afternoon -- to go into his ultimate opinion: "Is it

your opinion that Hamas carried out this specific or these

specific events?"

MR. FERGUSON: Well, I think that brings us through a

foundation sequence of questions stopping short of asking him

whether he prepared a summary and what's in that summary,

which is ten or fifteen minutes more.

THE COURT: Okay. Well, we can do that.

And even the summary lays out the events themselves.

I do not think there is anything in the summary -- now that

you have taken out the two things I asked you to yesterday, I

do not think there is anything in the summary that says --

MR. FERGUSON: Well, I think there is -- the

implication is there, Judge, because it says, "Hamas

Timeline," with the Hamas symbol at the very top.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: Judge, I have -- your Honor, with all

due respect to your Honor's ruling, I have a real concern

about this. And I wouldn't have raised it with you the way I

did, but I'm still struggling, frankly, with how I want to

articulate this to you.

THE COURT: Well, that is why I am going to give you

more time and he cannot go into his specific opinions that

"Because of all of these things in my background, it is my

opinion that Hamas carried out these particular events."

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MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I have a related problem.

It seems to me that even if he's going to say that,

"I read the communique. I talked to the Israelis. I was at

this place," where is the -- we never received any

documentation like that. We don't know the underlying -- we

didn't have the documentation of his underlying -- basis of

which he's going to give an opinion. We don't have that.

THE COURT: It is all public, I believe.

MR. FERGUSON: One, it is public. Two --

MR. DEUTSCH: Public?

MR. FERGUSON: -- the --

MS. THOMPSON: The reports you just referenced are

not public, Joe. You just said he reviewed reports. We

haven't received any of that material.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, look, there's some logic that

should prevail here.

First of all, the persons most qualified to talk

about whether their acts were Hamas or not blow themselves up.

So, it's really somewhat bizarre here for this argument to be

raised. There is -- the best evidence simply doesn't exist.

It's by design that it doesn't exist.

Second of all, this witness has in his writings

attributed these attacks to Hamas before. They've been

provided with his dissertation, which is about to be

published, that contains an annex of --

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MR. DEUTSCH: It's --

MR. FERGUSON: Please.

MR. DEUTSCH: It's the same list --

MR. FERGUSON: Please, please.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- that he did dissertation of.

THE COURT: Wait, wait. Counsel, what did I tell

you? If you both talk at the same time -- and now all three

of you -- I cannot hear you and Joe cannot take it down.

MR. FERGUSON: Sorry.

MR. DEUTSCH: There's nothing in his dissertation,

which I have read from beginning to end, which provides the

underlying basis for this chart. No police reports that he

relied on; no DNA; no forensics; no specific communiques; no

interviews with alleged Hamas terrorists, which I would --

recall he said the first one was in 2004. This chart starts

in 1989. This guy was about 12 years old in 1989.

So --

THE COURT: I do not think he was quite that young.

MR. DEUTSCH: Close, though.

So, I don't -- the thing that troubles me is if

you're going to have somebody get on the witness stand and

even say, "Based on my expertise and what I reviewed -- X, Y,

Z -- I made the conclusion that Hamas took credit for it" --

like you're saying; he can't go to the next step, but he can

say that -- aren't we entitled to the underlying materials on

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which he bases his opinion?

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: I'm thinking.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, it's just not the standard.

MR. FERGUSON: We're talking weight here. This is

opinion testimony. It's opinion testimony from someone who

has studied Hamas in particular, its military activities in

relation to its organizational objectives. It has the -- this

goes to weight. All of these arguments go to weight.

MR. MOFFITT: With all due respect to my colleague, I

don't believe that's the case. It goes to the government

meeting its burden of proof. And they cannot simply put a

person up on the witness stand who opines -- no matter what

kind of expert he is, who opines -- that these things happened

and, then, we assume for the sake of argument that it

happened. That's not a weight issue, your Honor. That's far

more. That's a far more evidentiary issue than simply weight.

The question is, is that -- is his opinion competent

evidence, it seems to me, of what they expect to elicit from

him and whether it's competent evidence to be proof beyond --

to constitute proof beyond -- a reasonable doubt in a

courtroom.

Now, I may admit something and you may have an

admission. It's admitted as a piece of evidence. It is not

the sine qua non of whether a person is guilty, even if it is

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an admission. It's admitted and it goes in with the evidence;

and, ultimately, the people who make the decision of whether

the admission itself decides the issue is the jury, not the

expert.

MR. FERGUSON: This is really about the final

question: "As to whether, in your opinion -- "

THE COURT: Right.

MR. FERGUSON: " -- Hamas did this act."

The series of questions that preceded -- and I was in

the process of laying a foundation to go through all sorts of

categories of information, generally, in the field that are

relied upon to come to an assessment to show that this witness

has examined all sorts of sources to come to that assessment

himself.

It sounds like here what is being sought is simply

the witness' statement as to whether or not there are these

types of materials with respect to each one of these things on

the basis of his expertise.

MR. MOFFITT: My --

THE COURT: I have already said today you cannot

elicit the ultimate opinion.

MR. MOFFITT: I want to be -- I'm sorry.

THE COURT: I want to revisit that --

MR. MOFFITT: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: -- further. And we have Monday off and I

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will hear further argument with you on Monday about that

point: Eliciting the ultimate opinion.

MR. MOFFITT: All right.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge --

MR. MOFFITT: All right. I just --

THE COURT: Or today. I do not care.

MR. MOFFITT: My mind just went crazy because I

wasn't coming back until sometime Monday.

THE COURT: Well, we can coordinate with your

schedule.

MR. MOFFITT: It seems to me -- I just want to be

clear that my objection is more fundamental than that. It is

more -- my secondary objection is I don't have any way to

cross-examine him on his opinion because, obviously, I can't

examine the materials that he examined. But --

MR. DEUTSCH: We haven't gotten the materials that he

examined.

MR. FERGUSON: "Sir, you, in fact, don't know that

Hamas committed that attack, do you?"

"No, it's simply my general assessment on the basis

of the materials I see."

MR. DEUTSCH: He's going to say he read this -- he

read this -- police report?

THE COURT: Let us bring him back in and hear what he

has to say. I do not know what he is going to say.

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Levitt - direct

188

Bring him back in.

We will go until 20, 25 after.

Do not elicit that ultimate opinion. We need to

explore that further.

Bring in the jury, please.

(Jury in.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Mr. Ferguson, you may proceed.

MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Judge.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Dr. Levitt, are there terrorist attacks that you have

examined through your research and writing where more than one

organization has claimed responsibility?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you please provide us with an example?

A. The Afulah bombing.

Q. And what was the Afulah bombing?

A. Afulah bombing was a suicide bombing in 1994 that was

claimed by Hamas and subsequently is believed Islamic Jihad

also participated.

There were fewer such attacks earlier on. After

2000, when what's called the second intifada or second

uprising erupted, there were many more joint attacks.

Q. And how do you treat an incident like that --

specifically, with respect to the example that you gave, how

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Levitt - direct

189

do you make an assessment -- as to whether it is better

attributed to Hamas versus the Palestinian Islamic Jihad?

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, just for the purposes of

the record, may I have a continuing line of objection to this

line?

THE COURT: Yes.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. And tell you what --

THE COURT: Rephrase that so you are clear.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. On this specific instance, I don't want you to say what

your conclusion is.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. I want you to tell us how you sort out those situations

where there are claims of responsibilities for a bombing by

more than one organization?

A. Sometimes organizations themselves will clarify.

Sometimes the authorities will be able to clarify through, for

example, DNA evidence who the specific perpetrator was; and,

then, they'll be able to work backwards and figure out what

group he or she was affiliated with.

Sometimes there are attacks that were jointly carried

out, and so they deserve attribution to more than one group.

Q. Are there major terrorist attacks, that you recount from

your research and writing, that were not broadly publicized in

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190

the media?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Have you encountered a terrorist attack, in your studies

and research with respect to Hamas and Palestinian

rejectionist groups, that was broadly publicized and turned

out not to have actually happened?

A. An attack that was broadly publicized and turned not to

have happened.

I have in my mind that that happened once, though I

can't remember when. And I think it involved a situation

where both Hamas and Islamic Jihad had dispatched suicide

bombers without either one another knowing; and, then, one

group had claimed responsibility thinking it had been their

bomber when it had been another bomber.

In that case, for example, one would have had to have

waited until the investigation was concluded to really know

who it was.

Q. And that would have been a scenario that -- and I want to

make sure -- you may have misunderstood my question.

That's a scenario where one side claims

responsibility and it turned out not to have been that

party --

A. Correct.

Q. -- who carried it out possibly?

My question is: The publicizing of an attack that

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Levitt - direct

191

turned out not to have occurred at all. A bus bombing that

wasn't -- never really happened?

A. Not to my knowledge, no.

Q. Are you personally familiar with sites of suicide

bombings?

A. I am.

Q. And are these sites, from your personal experience through

your field research, marked or commemorated in any way?

A. The vast majority are commemorated with some type of small

plaque or memorial.

Q. Have you personally seen a suicide bombing site in the

immediate aftermath of the bombing?

A. I have.

Q. Without attribution of that attack, would you please

describe what you have observed and seen?

MR. DEUTSCH: Can we get a date of this?

MR. FERGUSON: I'll --

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FERGUSON: More foundation.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. When was one of these suicide bombings that you actually

observed the immediate aftermath of?

A. July, 1997, I was in the West Bank conducting research for

my dissertation when a double suicide bombing -- meaning there

had been two suicide bombers -- detonated themselves in the

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Mahane Yehuda Market in Jerusalem.

Q. And what were you doing in Ramallah?

A. I was interviewing Palestinians for my dissertation. I

was at the Palestinian Legislative Council, their parliament.

There was a major meeting and I was interviewing as many

Palestinian leaders as I could. That day was focused to the

parliament.

Q. And when word of this double bombing occurred, what did

you do?

A. We heard about it through all the media that was there to

cover the parliamentary discussions, and all of them

immediately tore out to go cover the bombing. The Israelis

often put up a blockade immediately after these attacks to try

and prevent the perpetrators from getting out and others from

getting in.

Q. And let me stop you there.

Did you go -- did you attempt to go -- to the site?

A. I did.

Q. Did you go alone or with any others?

A. There were lots of people. I was there with my

Palestinian translator. We tried to go to the site

immediately afterwards and it was blocked. The whole area of

town was blocked off by police.

Q. Were you with any -- who else might you have been with

besides your Palestinian translator?

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A. I was with a reporter from NPR, National Public Radio,

and, I mean, many, many other journalists.

Q. All right.

So, you tried to go to the site. You were saying

that there are blocks put up by Israeli authorities.

What did you do?

A. Waited our turn in line and showed our passports and made

our way into Jerusalem. As we neared the area of town where

the bombing had occurred, the streets were blocked off by

police, couldn't go any further. So, I just found a cafe

where I could call my family and let them know that I was

okay. Ironically, it was a cafe that would be bombed a few

years later.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, this seems very far afield and

irrelevant. And I move that -- object and move that -- this

be stricken.

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, there have been a string of

objections as to this witness' qualifications to testify about

bombings themselves, as well as attribution of bombings. This

is foundation for what this -- where this -- witness'

knowledge for these things comes from.

MR. DEUTSCH: I didn't hear anything about any

knowledge. I heard he was blocked and sat in a cafe and

called his family --

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MR. FERGUSON: That's because I was interrupted.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- and then he said there was --

THE COURT: Wait, counsel.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- there was -- another bombing two

months later in the same cafe.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. It is for

foundational purposes.

You may continue.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. So, you make a phone call from the cafe where there's a

bombing some years later. And what happens after that call?

A. Later that day, I heard that the site had been somewhat

cleaned up and the investigation had been concluded. Because

this is my area of research, I decided to go and take a look

for myself.

Q. And were you able to get to the site?

A. I was. There was still a lot of media there, a couple of

investigators. But it was all open. You could walk through

what was left.

Q. And let me ask you this: Is it a common occurrence, to

your understanding, that media converge on these sites where

these attacks occur?

A. Absolutely. Whenever there's an attack, you can turn on

CNN and see footage of it almost immediately after.

Q. All right.

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195

So, you're there. What do you actually observe?

A. It was devastating. The market is an enclosed space.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Suicide bombers --

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection. I think it's prejudicial,

irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. FERGUSON:

Q. Was this July, 1997, double suicide bombing the only

incident that you were in Israel or the territories when it

occurred?

A. No.

Q. And, in those other instances, how did you become aware

that the bombing had occurred?

A. Heard about them on the radio minutes after they happened.

Q. Were they broadcast on television?

A. Yeah.

Q. Published in the newspapers?

A. Yeah.

Q. Pictures?

A. Yes.

Q. Video?

A. Yes.

Q. And in association with those that you were in the

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196

territory or region when they occurred, was there

publicization of an organization claiming responsibility for

them?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that common?

A. Yes.

Q. How soon after the bombing did you come to see something

in which a claim of responsibility is made, either through a

declaration or a statement from a political leader?

A. The one that I saw for my own eyes, it was very soon

after, an hour or two after. By the time the papers went to

press the next day, that was all in there. Some others, it

varies. If it's on television or other media, obviously

that's much faster. Internet, that's fast. If there's a

communique of some sort, that might take more time to filter

down to the media.

Q. We discussed a little earlier Web sites, and Hamas, in

your understanding, itself maintains Web sites.

What's the purpose for which Hamas would maintain a

Web site, as you understand it?

A. To promulgate its ideas. As we discussed earlier, Hamas

is very focused on its media efforts. To reach out to

diaspora communities that might support it. That's in large

part why it's published on so many different Web sites and so

many languages. Some of these Web sites actively solicit

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197

funds; others promote the cause. Some of them publish claims

of responsibility, living wills. One of them has what they

call a glory page of suicide bombers.

Q. Describe the glory page, without reference to an

organization -- actually, with reference to the organization.

A. This is on a Hamas Web site. It's a glory page of suicide

bombers that Hamas claims responsibility for and holds up as,

well, glory. Something --

Q. Just suicide bombers?

A. I haven't seen the page very recently, but it actually

covers an earlier period of time. I think it only goes up to

maybe '94. So, in all like likelihood, it covers much more

than just suicide bombers because the suicide bombings started

happening in full force -- only really had started in '93, but

in full force -- in '94.

Q. And, to your knowledge, has there ever been any disowning

or disclaiming or denial by Hamas or its leadership that these

Web sites were its own?

A. No.

Q. Has there been any claim or denial or disowning of the

reported claims of responsibility?

A. Not to my knowledge, no.

Q. Has there been any claiming, disowning or denying that the

glory record listings were not Hamas operations?

A. No.

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MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, it's clear that I have --

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. MOFFITT: Okay.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, this would be, in light of the

issues that have been raised, an appropriate time to break.

THE COURT: Okay.

Ladies and gentlemen --

MR. DEUTSCH: Before you release the jury, I wanted

to see you on a scheduling thing at sidebar.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. DEUTSCH: In reference to what I raised this

morning about the holiday --

THE COURT: On Tuesday?

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah.

-- I spoke to Mr. Salah, and what he tells me is the

prayer and the services is in the morning.

So, I'm wondering whether we could start at 1:00

o'clock, have the jury take lunch and come in and we could go

until 5:00 or even later, if you wanted; and, therefore, we

wouldn't be sacrificing that much time.

MS. HAMILTON: It's fine.

MR. FERGUSON: I don't have a basis for saying "Yes"

or "No." So --

THE COURT: I am so reluctant to do that --

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MR. DEUTSCH: I understand. I do understand.

THE COURT: -- given the schedule here.

MR. FERGUSON: Judge, what certainly would help is

that all such situations for the next couple of months be

identified beforehand.

THE COURT: That is why I asked for them before.

What time?

MR. DEUTSCH: Well, here's the thing --

THE COURT: Could we start it at 10:00?

I do not want to lose a whole morning, especially

given how long --

MR. DEUTSCH: I understand, Judge.

THE COURT: -- it is taking.

MR. DEUTSCH: I know.

THE COURT: I am trying to accommodate wherever I

can, but --

MR. DEUTSCH: I understand.

And what he says is that the prayer is at 10:00 and

he couldn't get here before 12:30 or 1:00. And what he was

suggesting is the jury come in after lunch and we go straight

through.

Now, we lose a couple of hours, but not -- not that

many because, you know, we don't have a lunch break and --

THE COURT: Mr. Spielfogel?

MR. SPIELFOGEL: I'm sorry.

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Levitt -

200

Yes?

THE COURT: Do you have a position?

MR. SPIELFOGEL: No, that's -- whatever his position

is on that is fine.

We actually need permission on Monday that he be able

to leave his house from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.

THE COURT: Fine.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Okay.

THE COURT: I will modify the conditions of his bond.

Can he get here by noon?

I hate to quibble over an hour.

MR. DEUTSCH: What if -- yeah. What if we do --

THE COURT: I just think it is --

MR. DEUTSCH: What if we do this: We can start at

noon. I guess we'll have -- we'll have -- lunch before.

Okay?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. DEUTSCH: We start at noon. And if he can't --

if he doesn't get here until 12:30 or 1:00, I'll waive his

appearance for that period of time.

THE COURT: Are you comfortable with that?

MR. SCHAR: As long as it's on the record.

MR. FERGUSON: As long as it's on the record, Judge.

THE COURT: Yes. I will have him --

MR. DEUTSCH: Do you want to bring him up right now

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Levitt -

201

and do that?

THE COURT: Please.

MR. FERGUSON: Could we let the jury go?

THE COURT: Yes, I will let the jury go.

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah.

THE COURT: But 12:00.

I --

MR. DEUTSCH: I understand, Judge.

THE COURT: Let me know about these because, then,

the following week we do not have court on Tuesday.

MR. DEUTSCH: I know.

THE COURT: We have to start late on Monday to

accommodate a juror. I have told this jury 12 to 16 weeks.

As you all know, I have another trial back to back with this.

I know you have other things to do back to back with this. I

do not want this to keep slipping. And I gave Monday off

because I thought that was the --

MR. DEUTSCH: That was just a --

THE COURT: -- religious day.

MR. DEUTSCH: -- misunderstanding when the moon is.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: But you know what? And I'm sure the

government might disagree, but I don't have any belief that

this trial is going to take that long.

THE COURT: Can I hug you?

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202

(Laughter.)

MR. SCHAR: At the rate we're going, it's going to

take that long.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are done for the

day. If you remember, we do not have trial on Monday.

And just another little scheduling issue. On Tuesday

we are going to pick back up with the presentation of

evidence, but we are going to start at noon. So, I am going

to ask if you could eat an early lunch. We will start at

noon, go noon to 5:00, with two breaks in there. I will make

sure you have coffee in your room.

But please -- why do you not get here by 11:45, go to

the 2nd Floor like you have been doing, and then you will be

brought up and we will pick up with the presentation of

evidence at noon.

Mr. Ferguson, is there -- okay. I thought you wanted

to add something.

Remember, please do not discuss the case and do not

read any media coverage of the case or do any of your own

research on it.

Have a wonderful weekend.

Please leave your notebooks in the jury room and I

will see you Tuesday by noon.

Thank you.

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(Jury out.)

THE COURT: Dr. Levitt, you are excused. Please be

back here Tuesday morning. Make sure you are here by 11:45 at

the latest.

THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.

(Witness excused.)

THE COURT: Okay.

Two things. First of all, I want to get your

client's waiver on the record --

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: -- with respect to what we spoke about.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I want to thank you for

accommodating him.

THE COURT: Mr. Salah, your lawyer asked me this

morning if we could take part of Tuesday or all of Tuesday

off, in addition to Monday, given the religious holidays. I

was under the impression, because it is what had been raised

to me before by Dr. Ashqar's lawyers, that Monday is the

religious holiday. So, I gave Monday off. And, then, this

morning Mr. Deutsch asked for Tuesday, as well.

I have agreed, as you heard me instruct the jury, to

come back at noon. So, the morning we will be off, that you

can go to the prayer service that you go to. Your lawyer

indicated you may not be able to make it here right at noon,

but that you would be willing to waive your appearance during

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trial for the --

THE DEFENDANT SALAH: Yes.

THE COURT: -- half hour or so that you might be

late.

THE DEFENDANT SALAH: Yes.

THE COURT: Do you understand, Mr. Salah, that you

have the right to be here for all of your trial?

Do you understand that?

THE DEFENDANT SALAH: Yes.

THE COURT: I know we have talked about this issue

before, but have you talked to your lawyer about waiving your

appearance for either a half-hour or an hour or some period of

time on Tuesday?

THE DEFENDANT SALAH: Yes, I did.

THE COURT: And is it your desire to waive your

appearance for some period of time -- let us say up to -- it

could be two to three hours if you are running really late --

where you will not be here for the jury portion of your trial?

THE DEFENDANT SALAH: Yes, I am.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you, Judge. Thank you.

THE COURT: Why do we not meet -- the lawyers meet --

on Tuesday at 10:00 to talk about this expert issue.

If you would like to file anything on the issue -- I

am going to do my own research, but if you would like to file

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anything on the issue -- please do so by noon on Monday. That

will give you the weekend; it will give me the weekend to look

at it; and, I will hear whatever you have to say on Tuesday.

That should accommodate your schedule, as well,

Mr. Moffitt --

MR. MOFFITT: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: -- since you were not planning on coming

back until later on Monday.

One other thing, Mr. Moffitt. I do not know if you,

Mr. Spielfogel or your client want to switch places, but you

are loud in talking to your client. So, maybe it would make

sense, rather than trying to talk over Mr. Spielfogel, if you

switch places.

My only concern is, I hear you. I look over and --

MR. MOFFITT: I understand.

THE COURT: -- I notice the jury looking at you. I

do not know if you realize that, but it is distracting.

MR. MOFFITT: I appreciate that.

Mr. Spielfogel is so large, it is hard for me.

(Laughter.)

THE COURT: No comments about short people are

allowed in this courtroom.

(Laughter.)

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Thank you, Judge.

MR. MOFFITT: I didn't say "short," I said "large."

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(Laughter.)

THE COURT: Mr. Ferguson?

MR. FERGUSON: Nothing further, Judge.

THE COURT: Have a good weekend. I will see you

Tuesday morning at 10:00 o'clock.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you, Judge.

(Whereupon, an adjournment was taken at 12:30 o'clock

p.m., until 10:00 o'clock a.m., the following Tuesday,

October 24, 2006.)

* * * * *

I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from the

record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

, 2006

Official Court Reporter

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