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1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

EASTERN DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Docket No. 03 CR 978

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. )

)

MUHAMMAD HAMID KHALIL SALAH AND )

ABDELHALEEM HASAN ABDELRAZIQ ASHQAR, ) Chicago, Illinois

) November 30, 2006

Defendants. ) 9:20 o'clock a.m.

VOLUME TWENTY-SIX

EXCERPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE AMY J. ST. EVE, AND A JURY

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff: HON. PATRICK J. FITZGERALD

United States Attorney

BY: MR. JOSEPH M. FERGUSON

MR. REID J. SCHAR

MS. CARRIE E. HAMILTON

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 500

Chicago, Illinois 60604

For Deft. Salah: PEOPLE'S LAW OFFICES

BY: MR. MICHAEL EDWARD DEUTSCH

MS. ERICA THOMPSON

1180 North Milwaukee Avenue

Chicago, Illinois 60622

For Deft. Ashqar: MR. KEITH ALLAN SPIELFOGEL

20 North Clark Street, Suite 1200

Chicago, Illinois 60602

MR. WILLIAM MOFFITT

11582 Greenwich Point Road

Reston, Virginia 20194

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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):

Also Present: S/A BRADLEY BENAVIDES, FBI

S/A JILL PETTORELLI, FBI

Court Reporter: MR. JOSEPH RICKHOFF

Official Court Reporter

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 1232

Chicago, Illinois 60604

(312) 435-5562

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PROCEEDINGS RECORDED BY

MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY

TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER

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THE CLERK: 03 CR 978, USA vs. Muhammad Salah and

Abdelhaleem Ashqar. Jury trial continues.

* * * * *

(Jury in.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Two things before we continue with the presentation

of evidence.

First of all, I know they are predicting snow. And I

received your note regarding the procedures if there is snow.

I will give you further direction later on today. I am

watching. If things get bad, we may break and end early for

the day. That is about as much as I can tell you. But before

you leave here today, we will have a specific plan for

tomorrow if the weather is bad.

Secondly, I have not touched the thermostat since

yesterday.

(Laughter.)

THE COURT: It is quite different than it was in here

yesterday. So, feel free to bring jackets or whatever you

need to. There is no control over that.

We will continue with the presentation of evidence.

Sir, let me remind you that you are still under oath.

Mr. Schar, you may continue.

MR. SCHAR: Thank you, Judge.

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Shorbagi - direct

4

MOHAMED SHORBAGI, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY SWORN

DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Mr. Shorbagi, when we left off yesterday, I believe we

were discussing the closed Hamas meeting that was occurring at

the Chicago convention.

Do you recall that?

A. Right.

Q. Now, I recall your testimony Mr. Mishal had spoken,

Dr. Ashqar made some comments; and, we were in the

question-and-answer session.

During that question-and-answer session, did the

topic of the FBI come up, again?

A. Correct.

Q. Could you tell us what was discussed?

A. Yeah. There was a question I remember about now that more

concern to the FBI issue. Since Hamas was becoming a major

player in the Middle East, since things has been evolved

bigger than before, that we should be really more careful in

our conduct and our behavior than before because the concern

of the FBI.

Q. After the speeches and the question-and-answer session

were done, was anything done to implement Mr. Mishal's

comments about organizing Hamas within the United States into

different groups?

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A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell us what was done?

A. Yeah. After Mishal's speech, we broke into groups. The

groups were called, like, the Financial Group, the Media

Group, the Politics Group, Education Group; that there will be

different groups, and names will be assigned to different

groups and different leaders to different groups.

Q. What was your understanding of the goals of these groups?

A. The goal of this -- these -- groups really -- really -- to

work as different teams, but in the same time to work for what

Mishal was saying: To -- as a support to bring the support

for Hamas.

Q. Was there an indication or announcement made as to who

would be heading particular groups?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall who made that announcement?

A. I really don't recall who made the announcement. But

there was calls that the head of such a group like the Media

Group will be Ahmed Yusif, the Politics Group will be Mousa

Marzook, and so on.

Q. What other groups had people assigned to lead them?

A. I remember, like, the Financial is Muhammad Muzein,

Education is Abdelhaleem Ashqar. That's what I remember.

Q. Were you chosen for a particular group?

A. Yes, sir.

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Q. Which group?

A. The Media Group.

Q. After people were chosen for particular Hamas groups, what

happened?

A. There was a form distributed there. We filled in our

names, our address, phone numbers -- how to be contacted by

mail or by phone -- and the group that you are assigned to.

Q. During this formation of these groups and the breakout of

these groups, was there a particular individual who was or

became upset?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall who that was?

A. His name is -- his name was -- Khalid Habib.

Q. Khalid, K-h-a-l-i-d; Habib, H-a-b-i-b?

A. That is correct.

Q. Why was he upset?

A. Khalid Habib, I knew him because when I moved to Rome, I

met him in Rome in '93. He was jailed in Israeli jails for

four years because -- as a Hamas activist. And when he came

to United States, he did his Master Degree in Business in

Oklahoma.

When he was in the meeting, he was objecting that he

was not chosen to be a leader of a group.

Q. Why was he objecting?

A. Because he was thinking that he was Hamas activist and he

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was jailed in Israel for a long time and he should be chosen

to be a leader of a group.

Q. Had he told you why he was jailed in Israel?

A. Yeah. I remember him speaking about it publicly, really,

in Rome that he was the financial director --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: On what basis?

MR. MOFFITT: The question, is this in furtherance

of?

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I think it is in furtherance as an

explanation as to who it is, why he was involved.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. What did he tell --

THE COURT: You may continue.

MR. SCHAR: I'm sorry, Judge.

THE COURT: You can continue your answer.

If you need to rephrase it, go ahead.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Can you continue your answer as to why he -- what he had

indicated he had been jailed for in Israel?

A. I mean, you got to know that time, '93, I mean, there was

not a lot of news about Hamas in the media. So, things were

talk in publicly somehow. So, he was speaking publicly there

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in Rome with the community that he was arrested for being a

financial director under Sheikh Ahmed Yasin for Hamas.

Q. Do you understand Sheikh Ahmed Yasin to be the spiritual

leader of Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you fill out an application to provide information

for the Hamas Media Group?

A. That is correct.

Q. I should ask you -- I know it's been a long time -- do you

think you would recognize Abdelhaleem Ashqar if you saw him,

again?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see him in the courtroom here today?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you point him out or describe an article of clothing

that he's wearing?

A. Yeah. He's sitting in the last row, right there

(indicating).

Q. What is he wearing?

A. Can I turn to see what he -- he was wearing -- he -- I'm

not sure, is that black or blue jacket. He's -- he's --

standing right -- he's sitting right -- there in the last row,

in the corner.

Q. All right.

Is he wearing any -- is he wearing a tie or not

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wearing a tie?

A. I cannot see him because the computer monitor is in front

of me. But he's wearing eyeglasses. I mean, the three

gentlemen are wearing eyeglasses, but he's wearing also

eyeglasses.

MR. SCHAR: I think, Judge, the record should reflect

he's identified Abdelhaleem Ashqar.

THE COURT: The record will so reflect.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. At some point, did you actually become involved in doing

work for the Hamas Media Group in the United States?

A. That is correct.

Q. Before we get to that, what was it -- based on your

involvement with these meetings, what was your understanding

as to how, for instance, the Media Group -- or any of these

groups -- was to assist Hamas in the United States?

A. See, you got to understand that we were -- or we are --

Palestinians living under foreign Israeli occupation. So, we

wanted to help to get rid of the Israeli occupation. And we

were divided into these groups to help Hamas by getting rid of

the Israeli occupation.

So, you got Media helping in one way. You got

Politics helping in one way. You got Financial helping in

other way. Just like there is a big aim or a big goal for us,

as Palestinians and as Hamas, to really get rid of Israel

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instead of Israel over Palestine.

And that goal is just like an ocean there and you got

rivers going towards that ocean. That is the education river,

the politics river, the financial river; and, all of it is

going towards one direction, which is really to save Palestine

from the Israeli occupation.

Q. When you say "save Palestine," what was the ultimate goal

of Hamas?

A. I mean, for us, as -- as -- a Palestinian and as a Muslim

and as a Hamas supporter, Palestine is the whole Palestine.

We used to call it from water to water, from the Mediterranean

Sea to the Jordanian River. That's the whole Palestine for

us.

Q. Does that include what is now considered the State of

Israel?

A. That con- -- concluded the State of Israel, the West Bank

and the Gaza Strip.

Q. How does working -- your work -- for the Hamas Media Group

assist Hamas in taking back all of the land of Israel?

A. I was really working with the Media Group, along with

others, into preparing reports about what does the United

States look upon Hamas and what is United States is gonna do

for Hamas.

So, once we watch the news, read the paper and make

the reports and send it over to the one who will make the

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decision, so he will have a clear idea of what somehow is

going on into the minds of the decision maker in the United

States here toward Hamas. So, they will be prepared for it.

Q. How does working for the Education Group -- the Hamas

Education Group -- in the United States assist Hamas in its

ultimate goal of taking back all the land of Israel?

MR. MOFFITT: If he knows, your Honor.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I think the foundation is laid at

this point.

MR. MOFFITT: I don't think so. He said it was

broken into groups. He was in one group. He wasn't in the

Education Group.

THE COURT: Mr. Moffitt, is your objection a

foundation one or is your objection if he knows?

MR. MOFFITT: It's both.

THE COURT: Okay.

Lay a further foundation.

Sustained.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. During these meetings, was there discussions in relation

to each of these particular groups?

A. Somehow, yes. I mean, you can tell, like, what -- I mean,

in some regard. Not like -- I mean, the Media, I know exactly

what was my job and because we broke into different groups.

But you have some sense of, like, what others is

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gonna do, but not really in details what are they going to do.

Q. Well, not just specific details of what exactly the

Education Group was going to do. Do you have an

understanding, through these meetings and your discussions, as

to how each of these groups was going to ultimately work for

Hamas in the United States and the ultimate goal of the

destruction of Israel?

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I'm going to object. That's the

second time he's referred to the ultimate goal of the

destruction of Israel. I don't think it's proper.

He did mention that, but he also talked about ridding

the occupation -- ending the occupation by -- of the

Palestinian people. So, he's kind of repeating this kind of

ultimate goal in his question, and I don't thinks it's fair.

THE COURT: That came from the witness, though.

Objection overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I'm sorry, what was the question?

MR. SCHAR: I'm sorry, Judge, could you --

THE COURT: Okay.

(Whereupon, the record was read by the Court.)

BY THE WITNESS:

A. As I said, because I work for the Media, I know exactly

what I was going to do for the decision makers in Hamas. But

for the -- such as, like, the Financial, we know that

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collecting money -- I mean, though I was working for the

Media; but, also, I could help with others, if I have the time

and if I have the ability to do it, like, financially or

otherwise.

But for the Education, I heard -- and this is the

thing that I heard, also -- that one of the things that

Education used to do is collecting books and send it to the

university in -- in -- the West Bank and Gaza to help the

schools there; or, also, collecting money and sending it to

the universities there to help the university students and

teachers.

And, also, one other thing I heard is there was a lot

of encouragement for us as Palestinians that if you get a

higher education, really, to go back to Palestine and start

working there and people will look -- the less educated

Palestinians there, they will look -- high upon you because

you are an educated -- U.S.-educated, highly-educated --

person.

In the meantime, you are a Hamas supporter. So,

there will be a lot of influence by someone who is

highly-educated Hamas supporters towards the less educated or

the other Palestinians in the Palestinian territory.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. And how does that ultimately help achieve Hamas' goals?

A. The support for Hamas will be increased, absolutely. If

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you got someone who is really an educated Palestinian and

well-behaved and good-mannered and in the same time he's a

Hamas, then people will look high toward them and they will

follow what he is gonna say about Hamas. They're not gonna

follow the PLO corrupted ones. They would follow the Hamas

good -- the good -- ones, good educated ones.

Q. And in relation to, you say, these universities, do you

know which universities the Education Group was helping?

A. I mean, one of the universities, I understand, was the

Islamic University in Gaza.

Q. How do you understand that?

A. Because, I mean, I kept hearing that, again, from, like,

one of the -- I mean, from not in the groups, but like outside

the groups -- that the Islamic University is one of the

priorities in the occupied territories.

Q. Priorities for whom?

A. For us, for Hamas.

Q. Now, you mentioned a collection of books. During the

Chicago MAYA convention -- I want to stay with the Chicago

MAYA convention -- did you see a booth that defendant Ashqar

had set up for the Al Aqsa Education Group?

A. Yeah, I saw that booth, yeah.

Q. What was happening at that booth? What was occurring at

the booth?

A. I mean, I remember passing by, that there were a

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collection of books into that booth. And they were selling,

also, some -- some -- books in that booth.

Q. So, they were both collecting books and selling books?

A. That is correct.

Q. What books did you see for sale there?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

May we approach?

THE COURT: Sure.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. MOFFITT: There can't be anything that's more the

First Amendment than the sale of books. Are we now trying to

claim that the sale of books is criminal activity?

MR. SCHAR: No. I don't believe he's charged with

any sale-of-books crime. I'm not sure in the United States

Code there is such a statute that would permit that.

However, I'm fairly confident that what we can do is

demonstrate that the books he had for sale were Hamas related

and, therefore, would certainly be suggestive of the

government's theory that, in fact, he was working for Hamas

and supporting Hamas.

And, so, it's incriminating evidence, despite the

fact he was legally permitted to do it.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

I certainly agree with you that nothing is more --

that the reading of books or purchase of books is protected by

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the First Amendment.

MR. MOFFITT: But now --

THE COURT: Wait. Let me finish.

And the jury instructions will clearly tell the jury

what the violations of law are.

MR. MOFFITT: But --

THE COURT: But the fact that you have them there is

evidence that they can use.

MR. MOFFITT: Now what we're saying is that the

content of the book determines whether or not it's evidence.

Now, that also is a problem with the First Amendment, that

we're now making content-based decisions on a particular book.

And we don't have the whole book here. We don't have -- we

only have this witness' opinion of what the book is. We don't

have the book. We can't -- no one can -- make an independent

determination.

THE COURT: That is a weight issue, and you are free

to cross him on it.

MR. MOFFITT: Ma'am, with all due respect to your

ruling -- and you know that I respect your rulings -- I am

asking for a mistrial.

THE COURT: Your motion for a mistrial is denied.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: You may continue.

MR. SCHAR: Thank you, Judge.

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BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Sir, when we broke, you indicated that you had seen

several of the books that were for sale?

A. Correct.

Q. Could you tell us or describe for us which books were for

sale at the Al Aqsa Education booth?

A. There were a few books, but two books that really grabbed

my attention is there is a book written by a prominent scholar

in the West Bank about the destruction of the State of Israel.

It's called, "Destruction of Israel: Myth or Fact."

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm sorry, I can't make that out.

MR. SCHAR: "Destruction of Israel: Myth or Fact."

BY THE WITNESS:

A. "Destruction of Israel: Myth or Fact." It's written by a

prominent figure in the West Bank. And it is verses from the

from the -- driven from the Koran, the holy books of us, the

Muslims. It's stated in the Koran that the Israelis will be

in Palestine. And, then, there --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Objection, with respect to

what's stated in the Koran. It doesn't have anything to do

with the book.

MR. SCHAR: I think he was describing what was in the

book.

THE COURT: Why do you not clarify, because his

answer was a little unclear.

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BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Sir, are you describing what you saw in the book?

Let me rephrase it.

Do you recall what you saw in the book?

A. That's what I'm talking about, yes, because --

Q. I'm sorry, could you please go ahead and describe for us

what you saw in that particular book about the destruction of

Israel?

A. Yeah, it's --

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, I'm going to raise another

objection at the bench.

THE COURT: I am sorry?

MR. MOFFITT: I'm going to raise another objection at

the bench.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MR. MOFFITT: We've gone through the First

Amendment --

(Brief interruption.)

MR. MOFFITT: We've gone with the First Amendment

with regard to books. Now we're in the First Amendment with

regard to religion. And I raise this same objection with

regard to religion that, certainly, someone can write a book

about the Koran and can interpret the Koran any way he chooses

to interpret it. In a free society -- at least in our

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society -- that's okay. That's not banned. That's not wrong.

There's nothing wrong with it. He can express his religion in

any way he chooses to express his religion.

Now what we're doing is that expression of religion

is being used against my client because it's a book written by

someone else which we, again, have no statement about the book

itself, other than from this particular witness. And this

particular witness' interpretation of the Koran is now being

put into evidence. And I suggest to you that that's

impermissible and improper.

MR. SCHAR: My response, Judge, is I don't, in large

part, disagree in terms of the freedom-of-religion issue. But

it goes exactly back to my point the last time we were at the

bar; which is, that he's allowed to describe what the content

of the book was because it's relevant to show what it is

defendant Ashqar was selling.

I'm not here debating whether or not it's a proper or

improper interpretation of the Koran or whether or not people

shouldn't be allowed. But the fact is, this was the

particular interpretation that was for sale. And that is

evidence.

MR. MOFFITT: Do you think that anybody would sell a

controversial tome --

THE COURT: A controversial?

MR. MOFFITT: A controversial tome -- anything that's

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controversial -- in this country if they knew that it could be

used as evidence against them in a criminal case?

The whole purpose of the First Amendment, it seems to

me, is that you can sell a book, you can advocate a position,

you can take a position, as long as you don't do it in a

violent manner.

Now, what we're doing here is we're on that slippery

slope, because if I have -- if I possess and sell Mao's Little

Red Book, that doesn't make me a communist. It makes me a

possessor of Mao's Little Red Book. If I sell Malcolm X's

autobiography and in Malcolm X's autobiography Malcolm X

advocates violence, that doesn't make me an advocate of

violence and it doesn't make me anything.

What the government is doing here is creating a

situation where the exercise of the First Amendment becomes

something sinister and something purposeful with respect to a

criminal case. That's inappropriate.

MR. SCHAR: Well, the exercise of the First Amendment

can be sinister. There's no debate about that. I can't

imagine there's debate about that.

And if it turns out we have lots of evidence that

Mr. Moffitt is a communist and was somehow charged in some

communist conspiracy and he had --

THE COURT: Let us not use Mr. Moffitt as an example.

(Laughter.)

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MR. SCHAR: Well, he --

THE COURT: I know he threw it open, but let us not

use him as an example.

MR. SCHAR: If somebody has a particular affiliation

and is charged with a crime in relation to that affiliation

and they have documentation which they may have every legal

right because it's not a crime to actually possess and to have

it and suggests that, in fact, they are what has been charged,

then it is incriminating evidence, even if they're allowed to

have it.

Judge, there are no allegations -- there are no

crimes here charged in terms of violating the First Amendment.

It's a racketeering conspiracy with the Hamas enterprise. And

it's our burden to show the enterprise existed and that this

defendant was a part of the conspiracy that went to further

the enterprise. His possession and sale of these books does

that. Whether he's legally allowed to do it or not doesn't

change it in terms of incriminating evidence.

MR. MOFFITT: The problem is that, just as your Honor

has said, Hamas activities broach both sides of the --

THE COURT: Bifarious nature of it.

MR. MOFFITT: Yes.

The activities that he just described, with respect

to the Education Committee, is selling books, promoting

education, collecting money and collecting books for the

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university.

THE COURT: Does that not help you, then?

MR. MOFFITT: I understand that.

But now what they're doing is they're saying there's

something sinister about the possession -- the mere possession

-- of a book.

THE COURT: If you are charged with the crime of

blowing something up and you have a book that teaches you how

to use explosives, that book could be evidence of the crime.

Possession of it alone is not a crime. And that is not what

they are saying here. And I certainly will not let them argue

that. And the instructions on the law will not reflect that

mere possession of these books is a crime.

MR. MOFFITT: But what we're talking about here,

Judge, is the possession of books that relate to a political

philosophy. Not to blowing up a building, not to doing

anything like that, but to a political philosophy.

THE COURT: But possessing a book that tells you how

to use explosives is not a crime in and of itself, either.

MR. MOFFITT: Well, but I'm saying it's like the

possession of the communist manifesto. The mere fact that I

possess the communist manifesto wouldn't make me a person who

believed that the government should be overthrown by violence.

THE COURT: I agree. And that is -- the mere fact

that they had these books, that alone is not a crime. But

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they can use it to the extent they want to argue in connection

with all the other evidence.

Your objection is overruled.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, can I say one other thing?

I want to join Mr. Moffitt's comments, but I also

want to say -- he didn't tell us the author of this book,

right?

THE COURT: No, he has not --

MR. DEUTSCH: No. Okay.

THE COURT: I do not know if he knows.

MR. DEUTSCH: Well, I --

THE COURT: And he has only had one question --

MR. DEUTSCH: Yes, yes.

THE COURT: -- that he has not answered fully. So --

MR. DEUTSCH: I want to know the author of the book,

and I think we're entitled for the government to produce that

book so we can look at that book, examine that book and see

what is in there.

If they have a witness that says that he was selling

a book and this book has these things in there, we are at

least entitled to have a copy of that book.

THE COURT: Well, if they do not have it -- which I

assume you do not --

MR. FERGUSON: We don't.

MR. SCHAR: We don't.

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THE COURT: -- then they are not required to turn it

over.

MR. DEUTSCH: Wait a minute.

THE COURT: Find out if he knows more about it. Find

out if he can tell you the author.

MR. DEUTSCH: Let me see if I understand this. They

never bothered to verify that book and what was in that book?

They're putting a witness on the stand who is mentioning a

book, it's something in the book and the government didn't

check the book to see if it's true or not?

THE COURT: Well, I do not think they are required to

do that, but you are free to cross-examine him on anything you

want. There is going to be a lot.

MR. DEUTSCH: Yes.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Schar.

MR. SCHAR: Thank you, Judge.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Sir, I think you were describing the contents of the book

when we broke. Could you continue with your answer?

A. Yes. I said it was really a small booklet, probably 30 to

40 pages, about the verses from the Holy Koran, about the

State of Israel, that the sons of Israel will be gathered in

the state of -- in Palestine -- in the land of al-Isra, the

land of Palestine -- for sometime and, then, there will be a

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time that they will scatter all over around the world.

And, then, there will be a time for them that they

will be back through the -- to Palestine, there for their

final residence in Palestine; and, there, there will be the

end for the Israelis in -- in -- the land of Palestine. That

Palestine will be, again, come a Muslim land and Arab land.

Q. Do you recall who the author of that particular book was?

A. Yes. I think his name is Bassam Jarar.

MR. DEUTSCH: Can you spell that for me? Can you get

a spelling of the last name, please?

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Do you know how to spell it?

A. B-a-s-s-a-m; Jarar, J-a-r-a-r.

Q. Was that the only book that you saw at the Al Aqsa

Education booth?

A. I saw, I think -- I remember -- another book for Sheikh

Ahmed Yasin.

MR. MOFFITT: May I have a continuing objection to

this line of questions?

THE COURT: You certainly may.

MR. DEUTSCH: I join, as well.

THE COURT: I am sorry, Mr. Deutsch?

MR. DEUTSCH: I said I join in that objection.

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. SCHAR:

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Q. You said you saw a book about Sheikh Ahmed Yasin?

A. That's correct.

Q. Do you recall who wrote that book?

A. I think Ahmed Yusif is the one. I'm not really sure.

Ahmed Yusif is the author of the book about the life of Sheikh

Ahmed Yasin.

Q. Do you recall whether or not defendant Ashqar was present

in the booth when you saw these books?

A. I didn't really recall that he was there at the time.

Q. Can you speak up, please?

A. I'm sorry.

I don't recall that I saw him at the booth that time.

Q. After you moved to Georgia, did you still host

individuals, as you previously described you had in Houston?

A. That is correct.

Q. Are you familiar with an individual named Jamil Hamami?

A. Correct.

Q. How are you familiar with Jamil Hamami?

A. Jamil Hamami came to Rome, Georgia, for collection

money -- collection of money -- to the Palestinians --

MR. MOFFITT: Can we have a date, time and place of

this?

THE COURT: Foundation.

Sustained.

BY MR. SCHAR:

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Q. Do you recall when he came?

A. Yes. He came in at the time of the Israeli massacres to

the worship prayers at Hebron mosque February -- after

February -- '94. There was a famous massacre of the worship

prayers in Hebron mosque. So, he was -- he came after that --

because I remember that time -- to collect money for the

Palestinians. So, it was in '94.

Q. Who sponsored him to come?

A. Al Aqsa Education Fund.

Q. Did you understand him to be affiliated with a particular

organization?

A. Yes.

Q. Which organization?

A. Hamas.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Foundation, please.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. How did you understand him to be affiliated with Hamas?

A. I mean, as a Palestinian and as a Hamas supporter, we used

to read a lot and hear the news, and so on. So, his name

was -- became a familiar with Hamas that he was Hamas --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Hearsay.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I think he can describe his

understanding.

THE COURT: Overruled. It is his understanding.

You may continue.

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THE WITNESS: Okay.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Again, as I said, like a Palestinian and a Hamas, that we

read a lot and we are concerned about our homeland and

Palestine, and so on. So, his name was coming a lot that he

is the Hamas representative in the West Bank.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. What happened when he came to Georgia?

A. To be honest, because that time Khalid Habib was there in

Rome and I was new in Rome, so he was in -- the one who was in

doing the logistics for Khalid -- for Jamil Hamami. But he

came to collect money.

Q. And did he, in fact, collect money on behalf of the Al

Aqsa Education Fund?

A. I remember so.

Q. Was Mr. Hamami eventually kicked out of Hamas?

A. Correct.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Again, reading the news --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection, again.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, can --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection, again. It's all hearsay.

It's rumor and innuendo. The newspapers. There's no basis to

believe necessarily anything in the newspaper is accurate.

MR. SCHAR: Whether the newspaper is accurate or not

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is a weight issue. If I could, I'd like to lay the

foundation.

THE COURT: Lay your foundation.

MR. SCHAR: Thank you, Judge.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Did you read or hear about particular individuals speaking

of kicking Jamil Hamami out of Hamas?

A. Again, I mean, I'm a very concerned Palestinian about my

homeland. So, I read a lot about Palestine and I do a lot for

Palestine.

So, there is a Web site -- or there are several Web

sites -- one which is very well known called

Palestine-info-info or based on -- based on -- -info.info, I'm

sorry. It's very well known that it's, like, pro-Hamas and

speaks highly about Hamas. And I usually go to that Web site.

A lot of news about Hamas there in Arabic, English and other

languages.

I saw that -- that -- some Hamas officials saying

that Jamil Hamami is no longer a Hamas member after that --

that -- thing.

MR. MOFFITT: Could we have a time?

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Approximately when did -- was Jamil Hamami kicked out of

Hamas?

A. I think '96, '97.

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Q. And is it your indication that certain Hamas leaders

announced that he was being kicked out of Hamas?

A. That he is no longer Hamas, just to be -- to clarify the

point that whenever he talks, he talks of his own; he doesn't

belong to Hamas anymore.

Q. What --

MR. DEUTSCH: I would object to the continuing

reference to him being kicked out of Hamas. That's not what

the witness is saying. He's saying he read something that

said he was no longer a member of Hamas.

THE COURT: Clarify that.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. What did the Hamas members say about Jamil Hamami, why he

was no longer going to be a part of Hamas?

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection. Objection. There's no real

foundation here and it is just blatant hearsay. And I don't

understand the purpose of it at all.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, he's saying he heard or read Hamas

members announcing this. So, I don't think that it is

hearsay. It's in furtherance --

MR. MOFFITT: Excuse me.

THE COURT: It is in furtherance of --

MR. MOFFITT: What he said was he went to a Web site

that he believes is a Hamas Web site and he saw it on the Web

site. That's what he said.

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THE COURT: Clarify the foundation with him, if that

is what he is basing it on, the Web site only.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Are you basing it on purely the Web site or anything else,

whether any articles -- what was it that you read or learned

or heard about from Hamas members specifically --

MR. DEUTSCH: Could he --

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. -- about Jamil Hamami?

MR. DEUTSCH: Could he identify who -- what other

persons he's talking about? "Hamas members," that's very

vague. Can he give us a name of someone who told him that, if

that happened?

THE COURT: Why do you not ask him first if he did

learn from other sources; and, then, find out who and when.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Who did you learn -- or how did you learn -- that Jamil

Hamami had been disassociated from Hamas?

A. Two main sources. One is that Web site,

Palestine-info.info.

The other source is there is a very well-known

magaz -- newspaper -- I'm sorry, magazine -- called Filistine

Al-Muslima -- Islamic Palestine -- that's also pro-Hamas

magazine. And I used to get that magazine every -- I think

it's a monthly magazine. And it was also said there that

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Jamil Hamami is no longer a Hamas member or no longer speaking

on the behalf of Hamas.

Q. As you sit here today, do you recall who said that?

A. To be honest, no. It was -- it was -- like, a statement

from Hamas itself that -- I mean, as you say, like, in those

press releases that -- Hamas press releases that -- Jamil

Hamami is no longer a member of Hamas.

Q. Would this be one of the leaflets you previously

described?

A. It was more than a leaflet. It was -- I mean, because

that time there is what we called al Maktab al-I'Alami in

Hamas, that -- the information center for Hamas. And they had

that press release inside the magazine and on the

Palestine-info press release by Hamas that Jamil Hamami is no

longer a Hamas member.

Q. Why was he kicked out, according to the Hamas press

release?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. Hearsay.

MR. SCHAR: That's in furtherance, Judge.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. THOMPSON: Judge, could you just read back his

last answer?

THE COURT: Sure.

(Record read.)

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you.

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BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Was there a reason as to why he was no longer going to be

a Hamas member?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the reason provided in the press release?

A. Now, Jamil Hamami is a member of Hamas. As any other

member of Hamas, that you have to follow the ideology of

Hamas.

So, Jamil Hamami attended a meeting in Copenhagen,

Denmark, by intellectuals from the Israelis and the

Palestinians called the Proclamation Or Declaration of

Copenhagen. Talks about peace between the -- or the

co-existence between the -- two nations, the Israelis and the

Palestinians.

And because of his attendance to that Copenhagen

conference, whatever, he was kicked out from there -- from

Hamas.

Q. As part of your role with the Hamas Media Group in the

United States, were you asked to perform any assignments?

A. Correct.

Q. Who asked you?

A. Friend of mine.

Q. What was his name?

A. Iyad Hindi.

MR. MOFFITT: Excuse us?

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BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. I -- is it I --

A. I-y-a-d, H-i-n-d-i.

Q. How do you know Mr. Hindi?

A. He was working the same company I work with in -- too, in

-- Rome.

Q. Did you know him to have an Abu name, as well?

A. Yes.

Q. What was his Abu name?

A. His son -- we have the Arabic tradition that as a respect

to the man, you call him Abu of his first son. His first son

is Abdel Rahman. So, we called him Abu El Abed or Abu Abdel

Rahman.

Q. When approximately did Mr. Hindi ask you to act or to work

in furtherance of the Hamas Media Group?

A. After the -- that meeting in Chicago in '94.

Q. What did Mr. Hindi ask you to do?

A. It was -- I mean, it was -- told that now we need to

really look into different types of media in the United

States. And they know that I like to watch the news a lot.

So, I was told to watch some of the news outlets, TV.

So, I used to watch C-SPAN, CNN. At that time, there

was no Fox News or Al-Jazeera. So, most of the times,

watching the C-SPAN 1 and 2, I think, and CNN, what they are

talking about Hamas; and, some of the Congress sessions, the

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Senate -- senator -- sessions about Hamas.

Because that time in '95, '96, Hamas became a very

major player in the Middle East, in the bombings -- the bus

bombings -- and other stuff. So, it was concern -- a lot of

concern -- to the American Congress and Senate how to deal

with Hamas since Israelis are the most or the biggest allies

to the Ameri- -- to the American government here.

So, I used to watch the news.

Q. What were you asked to do in terms of monitoring Hamas on

the news?

A. To write a report about what is the government -- the

United States government -- thinking about Hamas and thinking

to do with Hamas.

Q. Did you, in fact, do any monitoring of the news and the

United States positions in relation to Hamas?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did you do?

A. I monitored the -- those long Congressional hearings on

C-SPAN. And I used to most, like, nighttime spend hours

watching the C-SPAN and write the reports.

Q. When you say "write a report," what would you write?

A. Make notes about what's being said at the Congressional

hearings.

Q. Were you given any instructions after you completed the

report?

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A. Yeah. To, I mean, take the notes and, then, format it --

write it -- in a neat way and, then, fax it.

Q. Who gave you the fax number?

A. Mr. Hindi.

Q. How did he give it to you?

A. He gave it to me in a coded way.

Q. How was it coded?

A. To read it background. Like, if he's telling me, like,

the number is "1-2-3," the number would be "3-2-1."

Q. I thought I heard "background." Are you saying backwards,

to read it right to left?

A. Right. Like, if the number is written from left to right,

like "1-2-3," so the real number would be "3-2-1."

Q. After he gave you the coded fax number, what did you do

with the Hamas report that you had written?

A. Whenever I'm done with the report, to fax the report.

Q. Where did you fax it to?

A. It was a long distance. It was in the United States.

Q. In the United States?

A. That is correct.

Q. Do you recall where in the United States?

A. Later on, I found it was to UASR, the Research Center in

Washington, D.C.

Q. Who do you know to be affiliated with UASR?

A. Ahmed Yusif.

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Q. Anybody else?

A. I think at that time --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection to what he thinks.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Do you know?

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Do you know whether anyone else was?

A. Yeah. Mousa Marzook.

Q. In addition to giving you the fax number in code, did

Mr. Hindi ever talk to you about ways to avoid being tracked

or watched by the FBI?

A. Correct.

Q. When did that conversation occur?

A. I think in '95, '96.

Q. Where were you when it occurred?

A. In Rome.

Q. Was it over the phone or was it in person?

A. No, it was in private, person.

Q. What did Mr. Hindi tell you about being -- avoid being --

tracked by the FBI?

A. Because I was in the Media Group, so I used to write the

reports from the TV. There are others who would monitor the

newspapers, like New York Times and Chicago Tribune, and so

on, and Los Angeles Times, and write their own reports. So,

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sometimes we used to get together and do the report and fax it

over.

So, whenever using the travel -- travel -- not to use

the -- the advice was not to use the airline because your name

will be there, driver license, and so on. Try to use, like,

the bus, the train, to avoid having your name on the -- on the

-- airline.

Q. Did Mr. Hindi give you an example of how using airplanes

could hurt Hamas?

A. Correct.

Q. What example did he give you?

A. Mousa Abu Marzook example.

Q. What did he say about Mousa Abu Marzook?

A. He say that when Mousa Marzook used to live in Louisiana,

he used to travel inside the United States and outside the

United States. So, he used to use the airlines. And because

of his overwhelming travel plans here and there, the FBI were

able to track all of his cities and towns that he went to and

connecting the dots of Hamas members and Hamas activities

inside the United States and outside.

Q. Now, sir, were you concerned that your actions on behalf

of Hamas in the Media Group could get you in trouble with the

FBI?

A. Correct.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

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Can we have a date and time that he was concerned

about that?

THE COURT: You can lay a foundation as to when he

had that concern.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. When did you become concerned or -- let me ask it this

way: Was there always a concern that your actions --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. -- on behalf of --

MR. MOFFITT: Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. When did you become concerned your actions on behalf of

Hamas could potentially get you in trouble with the FBI?

A. To be honest, I mean, as a Palestinian and knowing exactly

what's going on in the Middle East -- with the Israelis, with

the Palestinians issue, occupation, demolishing homes,

killing, and so on; U.S. government, Israeli allies, Hamas,

and so on -- so there was a lot of concern from the beginning.

Like, when I start working for Hamas, I knew there is

a concern that this is not an easy thing. It's something

related to U.S. government, Israel, Hamas, bombings, killing,

occupation, a lot of things.

Q. So, is it fair to say from the beginning of your work for

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Shorbagi - direct

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Hamas, you were concerned that what you might be doing could

get you in trouble with the FBI?

A. Correct.

Q. Why was that?

A. I mean, as I said, because you got occupation and you got

fighting. You got resistance. You got -- you got -- a lot of

activities going on.

Q. When you say "activities," what are you referring to?

A. Activities, meaning killing on both sides.

Palestinians -- I mean, Israeli killing Palestinians,

demolishing their homes; Palestinians are revenging back and

resisting the occupation. So, there's a fighting going on.

Q. I want to direct your attention to August, 1995. At that

time, did Mr. Hindi ask you to accept a package for him?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he ask you to do?

A. He said, "There will be package coming from Abdelhaleem

Ashqar. So, keep that package for me."

Q. Why did he ask you to accept that package and not simply

accept it himself?

A. He was really in --

MR. MOFFITT: Foundation as to how he knows why.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Hindi about why he

wanted you to accept the package?

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41

A. Correct.

Q. Who was present for it?

A. No one. Me and him.

Q. Where did it occur?

A. In Rome.

Q. What did he tell you about why he wanted you to accept the

package?

A. He was in transition. Like, he had lived in Rome for

sometime -- I don't remember how long, really. But he lived

in three different places. He used to move. And, then, he

moved to Atlanta. Same thing: He lived in two different

places in Atlanta.

So, because he was in transition, so he thought that

if the mail was coming, it will be lost in the mail. I was

sitting in my place, was not moving. So, that's why.

Q. What did you agree to do?

A. I agreed to accept the package.

Q. How did it arrive?

A. By mail.

Q. What did you do with the package when it arrived?

A. When it arrives, I kept it. And, then, I told Mr. Hindi

about it, that I got the package.

Q. What happened?

A. I kept it for sometime. And I think that time he had

moved out of Georgia after a while, and I kept the package

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42

with me.

Q. Did you open it?

A. Out of concern, yes, I did open it later on.

Q. When you say "later on," about how long after you received

it did you open it?

A. To be honest, I mean, because I knew it was a package

coming from Abdelhaleem to Iyad and I knew the situation, so I

kept it in a safe place knowing that I'll -- be handed over to

Iyad one time.

And, after that, I move from the apartment to a

home -- to house. And most -- I mean, some -- of the stuff

when you move, you throw away; but, I kept that package with

me. So, a little while -- probably year after that, maybe

year-and-a-half -- it came to my eyes, that I opened the

package.

Q. When you say that it came from Dr. Ashqar to Hindi so you

had an idea, what do you mean by that?

A. That is an important package.

Q. Why would it be an important package? Why do you think it

was an important package?

A. Maybe because we're all Hamas.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. "Maybe because we're all

Hamas." Ask that it be struck.

THE COURT: Sustained, if he is speculating.

And I will strike it.

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BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Are you guessing or did you have the belief at that time?

A. Yeah. We are Hamas.

Q. And did you believe that at that time, that this package

may be related to that?

A. Yes.

Q. And when you opened it, did you eventually look through

the contents of it?

A. I looked into the first page. When I got the package, I

wrote "private" on it so no one -- or in Arabic, so my wife

will not look in -- at there -- at it; or, when the kids,

also. But I kept it in a safe place. So, even if someone

came across at it, so no one will open it.

Q. I'm going to --

A. But --

Q. I'm sorry, you can finish your answer.

A. But I'm saying when I opened it, I looked at the first

page, I read the first page, and then I flipped through the

pages. And, then, I kept it back in the safe place.

Q. I show you what's marked Government Exhibit Shorbagi

Search Documents Group.

MR. SCHAR: May I approach, Judge?

THE COURT: You may.

(Document tendered.)

BY MR. SCHAR:

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Shorbagi - direct

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Q. I ask you to look at that.

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the package that you accepted for Mr. Hindi from

Mr. Ashqar?

A. Correct.

Q. Who is it addressed to?

A. Okay. You got two items there. The first one is Mr. Abu

El Abed, who I knew to be Iyad Hindi; and, then, it has my

address there.

Q. When you say "Mr. Abu El Abed," is that the Abu name of

Iyad Hindi?

A. Correct.

Q. And that was your old address?

A. Correct.

Q. Is there a return address?

A. There is a return address, right.

Q. Could you actually open it up and take out what's marked

Government Exhibit, I believe, A. It should be the cover

page, I think, you indicated?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that the cover page that you read when you opened it?

A. Correct.

Q. Does it indicate it's to Mr. Abu El Abed, who you

understand to be Iyad Hindi?

A. Correct.

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Shorbagi - direct

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Q. If you look at the last line of that cover page, does it

indicate that these documents are being sent for research?

A. Correct.

Q. And you're looking at the Arabic. Do you read Arabic?

A. Correct.

Q. What was Mr. Iyad Hindi's profession?

A. He was computer engineering.

Q. Do you know him to be doing any research?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: I am sorry?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: What is your objection.

MR. MOFFITT: He needs to lay a foundation, it seems

to me. Simply because he was a computer -- it doesn't mean he

wasn't doing research.

THE COURT: It is a "Yes" or "No" question, and then

you can find out how.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Did you understand him to be involved in any research?

Mr. Hindi.

A. No.

Q. Now, you said you had gone through these documents at some

point. Did you see that some of them were statements being

made regarding Hamas?

A. As I said, like, when I read the first page, I realized

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Shorbagi - direct

46

that it is -- that there are some documents in there. I knew

that I wasn't supposed to open the package, but out of

concern, I start flipping through the pages.

I start reading from the first page. It was Muhammad

Salah interrogation by the Israeli Securities in Palestine

when he was there. And I read, like, few pages and then

flipped, like, ten pages down; and, then, read few lines and,

then, the other. And, then, I realize that was the confession

of Muhammad Salah under the Israeli interrogation by the

Israeli Security in Palestine. So, I put it back and I left

it back -- I left it there.

Q. As a member of the Hamas Media Group, how would your

receiving confessions such as these assist you?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection.

MR. MOFFITT: He didn't receive them. He received

them for somebody else.

THE COURT: Sustained.

The question you asked asks for him to speculate.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. As a member of Hamas at that time, how would receiving --

how would the distribution of confessions help you?

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection. It's speculation and he --

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I'm just asking him as a member of

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Shorbagi - direct

47

the conspiracy.

MR. DEUTSCH: He didn't receive --

THE COURT: But you are asking, "How would it have

helped you?" without --

MR. SCHAR: Okay.

THE COURT: -- saying he ever received them.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Were you aware --

THE COURT: Or --

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Well, let me ask you this: Was Iyad Hindi part of the

Media Group, as well?

A. Yes.

Q. And was this directed towards him?

A. Correct.

Q. Were you also part of the Media Group?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you aware of the distribution of confessions from

time to time?

A. I'm sorry, I --

Q. Were you aware that there were confessions from Israel

being moved?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. And how would it help or how did it help the Hamas Media

Group to have these confessions?

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Shorbagi - direct

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MR. DEUTSCH: Objection. Can we lay a foundation as

to whether or not, and when, he saw any alleged confessions

from Israel?

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I know he saw these. He's

testified --

MR. DEUTSCH: He said he looked at one page, two

pages and flipped to the end of it.

THE COURT: Lay your foundation.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Other than these confessions, did you personally see any

other confessions?

A. Again, I mean, some of those things when Palestinians is

being taken by Israeli Securities under the pressure from the

Israelis, they say things. So, sometimes you read them in the

newspapers or the magazines or on the Web sites. So, those

things are there.

Q. In specific relation to these types of documents, did you

see any others?

A. No.

Q. How does receiving those confessions help you?

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection. He just said he didn't see

any others.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, in relation to his involvement in

the Media Group, he's saying that they did receive them; and,

in particular, Iyad Hindi, who was a member of the Media

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Shorbagi - direct

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Group, as well, received these.

MR. DEUTSCH: Well, I'm confused because, first of

all, he testified that Mr. Hindi wasn't doing any research,

right? Now he's saying Mr. Hindi's part of the Media Group.

So, I don't --

THE COURT: Well, you are certainly free to cross the

--

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah.

THE COURT: -- witness on --

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah. But it just seems like he's

shifting ground on us now.

He's now -- other than reading in the newspaper about

confessions, he hasn't really received any.

THE COURT: Mr. Schar?

MR. SCHAR: Let me ask it a different way.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. You reviewed some of these documents, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Did reviewing these documents help you in any way?

A. Yes.

Q. How?

A. By reading some of the names on the confession, that tells

me that these names are now at the Israeli Securities, which

means that the FBI will know these names eventually because of

the cooperation. And that means they will be under

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Shorbagi -

50

surveillance, so it's better to avoid those guys.

Q. I'd like to, if I could, show you some pictures.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I need a sidebar, please. I'm

sorry to interrupt, but I do.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Proceedings had at sidebar:)

MS. THOMPSON: Judge, the front row over there is,

apparently, all of the handlers for this particular witness,

including the FBI agent yesterday, who was in court the last

two days after he testified, who, apparently, did nothing more

than the search.

And I am seeing nods from the blond-haired woman

sitting next to the FBI agent who signaled to him to say "No";

when he answered that in the affirmative, got extremely upset.

THE COURT: I am sorry, you saw --

MS. THOMPSON: And there's whispering going on --

THE COURT: You saw the blond woman --

MS. THOMPSON: The blond woman in the front row,

second, is nodding --

THE COURT: To the FBI agent?

MR. DEUTSCH: No.

MS. THOMPSON: To the witness on the stand.

THE COURT: Okay.

MS. THOMPSON: And when they seemed disappointed that

he didn't give the answer, there was a big conversation that

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Shorbagi -

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took place between them.

Now, I don't want to cast aspersions about it, but I

am concerned about that front row. I think it's intimidating.

I think there's five of them. I don't know why that FBI

witness is in here. And it's very much concerning if there's

something going on.

MR. MOFFITT: Can we understand who the blond woman

is?

MS. THOMPSON: Who they are. Who that whole row is.

MR. SCHAR: As I understand -- well, obviously, one

of the witnesses testified. I think one is his lawyer. One

is --

MS. THOMPSON: Which one is the lawyer?

THE COURT: Is it the blond woman that is his lawyer?

MR. SCHAR: No, it's --

THE COURT: No, she is --

MR. SCHAR: -- the gentleman.

The blond woman is the assistant U.S. attorney

from --

MR. MOFFITT: Dammers? Ms. Dammers?

MR. SCHAR: Yes, yes, yes.

And I think there's two other FBI agents and maybe a

Customs agent, all from out of state.

Obviously, I have my back turned, so I don't know

what's going on.

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Shorbagi -

52

THE COURT: I did not see it.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: And I have been watching the audience.

We have a full house today. I will watch very closely.

That is, obviously, something you can cross-examine

him on.

MS. THOMPSON: Obviously. And we intend to

cross-examine him --

THE COURT: At a minimum.

MS. THOMPSON: -- on it.

THE COURT: At a minimum.

But I will watch and, if I see anything

inappropriate, will take the appropriate action.

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you, Judge.

Do we have a motion to exclude witnesses with regard

to the FBI agent or not?

THE COURT: There was motions in limine --

MR. SCHAR: I don't think there's a motion.

THE COURT: I thought we addressed this at the

beginning, but he has already testified.

MS. THOMPSON: May have, but I --

THE COURT: So, typically, if somebody has already

testified, I do not care.

MS. THOMPSON: That's fine.

THE COURT: The other thing I will do is when we

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Shorbagi -

53

break, I will have the marshal mention to those individuals in

the first row not to be giving any kind of gestures to the

witness.

MS. THOMPSON: And it may be -- I'm not going to

suggest anything about intent because sometimes people just

react.

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. THOMPSON: But --

THE COURT: That will be made clear.

MR. MOFFITT: But frowns and those kind of things are

not helpful, either.

MS. THOMPSON: Right, especially since he's being

judged whether he's getting a deal based upon the assessment

of that front row.

THE COURT: I will have a deputy marshal talk to

them.

For scheduling purposes, too, since we got started a

little later today, I was going to try to go until about 1:00

before we broke for lunch, if that is okay.

MR. MOFFITT: Are you going to have a break? Are you

going to have a mid-morning break?

THE COURT: Yes, I will break soon.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, actually, I don't have that much

more left in my direct. So, maybe --

THE COURT: When you are done.

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Shorbagi - direct

54

MR. SCHAR: -- that would be a good time to break.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Proceedings had in open court:)

THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Schar.

MR. SCHAR: Thank you, Judge.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. I don't know if your computer screen is on next to you,

Mr. Shorbagi, to your right.

I want to put up -- I'm going to ask you, do you see

the person who is on your screen?

A. Correct.

Q. Do you recognize that person?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is --

THE COURT: Is there an exhibit number on this, for

the record?

MR. SCHAR: I'm sorry, Judge. That is government

Exhibit Levitt Photo 1, in evidence.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Who do you recognize that to be?

A. That's Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. How do you recognize him?

A. I saw him.

MR. SCHAR: Move ahead to Government Exhibit Levitt

Photo 3.

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Shorbagi - direct

55

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Do you recognize that person?

A. Yes, I recognize him.

Q. Who is that?

A. That's Dr. Abdel Aziz Al-Rantisi.

Q. How do you recognize him?

A. I saw him on TV.

MR. SCHAR: Move ahead to the next exhibit,

Government Exhibit Levitt Photo 5.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Do you recognize that individual?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

A. Sheikh Ahmed Yasin.

Q. How do you recognize Sheikh Ahmed Yasin?

A. I saw him on TV, also.

Q. Moving ahead to Government Exhibit Levitt Photo 2, do you

recognize that individual?

A. Correct.

Q. Who do you understood -- who do you recognize that to be?

A. That's Salah Shahadah.

Q. How do you recognize Salah Shahadah?

A. I saw him in magazine; and, then, later on when he was

assassinated by Ariel Sharon, his picture was on TV.

Q. When you saw him in the magazines, what magazine did you

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Shorbagi - direct

56

see him in?

A. Filistine al-Muslima.

Q. Do you recognize that individual?

A. That's Imad Al-Alami.

Q. That's Government's Exhibit Levitt Photo 6.

How do you recognize Imad Al-Alami?

A. Same way: From the magazine and the Web site.

Q. Do you recognize that individual?

A. Correct.

Q. Who is that?

A. That's Dr. Mahmoud Zahar.

Q. How do you recognize Dr. Zahar?

A. From the TV.

Q. Sir, previously, I think, you testified yesterday that

you've pled guilty to providing material support to Hamas; is

that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Did the FBI first approach you about your criminal

activity in approximately March of this year, in March, 2006?

A. Correct.

Q. Since then, have you been interviewed on a number of

occasions by various FBI agents and attorneys?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you lie to the agents and attorneys about your

activities on behalf of Hamas during certain of your

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Shorbagi - direct

57

interviews?

A. Correct.

Q. Why?

A. It's a natural thing and obvious. It's Hamas, 9/11,

United States, FBI, Palestinian, legal resident in this

country. I was concerned for myself, my family -- I have five

kids -- and, my friends, the ones that I -- they trusted me,

we worked together for such a long time -- and, for the

movement, for Hamas. So, I lied.

Q. At some point did you decide to tell the truth about

Hamas?

A. Yeah, after a while, I decided to say the truth.

Q. Why?

A. Because I understand keep lying is gonna get me nowhere;

say the truth and take the responsibility.

MR. SCHAR: May I have one moment, Judge?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Brief pause.)

MR. SCHAR: I have nothing else at this time.

THE COURT: Let us take our morning break.

(Jury out.)

THE COURT: We will pick up at about 25 to 12:00.

(Brief recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Schar, do you have your witness?

MR. SCHAR: He is on his way, Judge.

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Shorbagi - cross by Moffitt

58

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.

(Jury in.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Mr. Deutsch?

MR. DEUTSCH: Mr. Moffitt is going to go first.

THE COURT: Okay.

Mr. Moffitt, cross-examination.

MR. MOFFITT: Thank you, ma'am.

CROSS-EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT ASHQAR

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Good morning, Mr. Shorbagi.

A. Good morning, sir.

Q. My name is Bill Moffitt and I represent Dr. Ashqar.

A. Yes.

Q. You ended your direct examination by telling us that you

lied to the government, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, from the moment you started meeting with the

government -- and that was in March; was it not?

A. Correct.

Q. -- they told you that you had to be truthful, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. But --

(Brief interruption.)

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MR. MOFFITT: Are we all right?

THE COURT: I am sorry. We had an issue with the

acoustics. The government had placed a cup over the

microphone, which messed up everything.

MR. MOFFITT: I knew they would do something like

that.

(Laughter.)

THE COURT: Fortunately, Mr. Moffitt, we were all

still able to hear you.

So --

(Laughter.)

MR. MOFFITT: I hope so.

THE COURT: -- you may continue.

MR. MOFFITT: I hope so.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. We were talking about now that from the very beginning, in

March -- or on March 9th -- when you went to see the

government, the first thing the government told you was that

you were going to have to be truthful, wasn't it?

A. Correct.

Q. And they've told you that over and over and over again,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you met with the government on March 9th, correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. March 13th?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. March 14th?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. March 16th?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Bear with me, sir.

(Brief pause.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. March 17th?

A. Correct.

Q. March 23rd, March 20- -- right? March 23rd?

A. I mean, you're saying the dates. I remember that I met

with them several times, but, I mean -- go on. These dates

seems to be correct, right.

Q. March 23rd, can you give me an answer?

A. I mean, March 23rd -- I didn't remember exact date, but

correct. Right, right, uh-huh.

Q. Do you want to look?

A. No, no, no. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying

it's correct.

Q. All right.

March 29th?

A. Correct.

Q. April 13th?

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A. Correct.

Q. April 18th?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. April 26th?

A. Correct.

Q. April 27th?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. April 28th?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. May 1st?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. May 10th?

A. Uh-huh.

MR. SPIELFOGEL: You need a "Yes" or "No" answer,

Bill.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Well, please answer me "Yes" or "No."

May 15th?

A. Yes.

Q. May 17th?

A. Yes.

Q. May 23rd?

A. Yes.

Q. June 5th?

A. Yes.

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Q. I think that was the last one that I have.

Have you met with the government since June 5th?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. What do you mean "the government," sir?

Q. All right.

Let's start in that front row right there

(indicating).

A. Right.

Q. All right.

Do you know who the people are in that front row?

A. Correct.

Q. Who is the person sitting in the corner?

A. That's from the FBI.

Q. All right.

And the person sitting next to him?

A. Is Kim Dammers.

Q. And who is Kim Dammers?

A. Prosecution.

Q. Prosecution.

Is she the prosecutor that you entered a plea

agreement with?

A. Correct.

Q. And she's from Georgia; am I right?

A. Correct.

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Q. She flew up here to see you testify, correct?

A. I guess so.

Q. Who is sitting next to Ms. Dammers?

A. Mike Rotti.

Q. Who is he?

A. FBI.

Q. Who is sitting next to -- Mr. Ryan?

A. Rotti.

Q. Riley?

A. R-o-t-t-i, Rotti.

Q. Okay. R-o-t-t-i.

Who is sitting next to him?

A. Matthew Saylor.

Q. Who is he?

A. Immigration. ICE.

Q. ICE.

He's a law enforcement officer, as well, right?

A. Correct. Correct.

Q. And where is he from?

A. He's from Georgia, also.

Q. Where is Mr. Rotto -- Rotti -- from?

A. Rotti.

Also, Georgia.

Q. And who is the woman sitting next to the ICE officer?

A. Lara.

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Q. Lara who?

A. Lara Burns.

Q. Who is she?

A. FBI.

Q. And you know her by the name "Lara"?

A. Correct.

Q. First-name basis, huh?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. You have a first-name relationship with her?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Not -- not -- relationship, but I know Lara Burns,

that what her name is.

(Laughter.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. All right.

And the gentleman sitting in the corner is your

lawyer, right, on the --

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And he -- what's his name?

A. Michael Tross.

Q. All right.

Now, you just told us that you lied to the

government --

A. Correct.

Q. -- correct?

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When you met with the government -- since I don't

know what you lied about, when you met with the government --

on 4-20 --

MR. MOFFITT: May I approach?

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. -- can you tell us what you lied about then?

(Document tendered.)

THE COURT: Can you, for the record, Mr. Moffitt,

describe what you are handing to the witness?

MR. MOFFITT: I'm handing him FBI 302s.

MR. SCHAR: Judge --

THE COURT: The ones you just went through?

MR. MOFFITT: Yes.

MR. SCHAR: I'm not sure what he's trying to do.

MR. MOFFITT: I'm trying to find out -- since I don't

know what he lied about, I'm trying to ask the witness what he

lied about.

What you just asked him.

MR. SCHAR: Does he need his -- refreshing

recollect- -- I mean, the document itself isn't in evidence

and, obviously, shouldn't be since it's not --

MR. MOFFITT: I haven't offered it into evidence. I

handed it to the witness.

MR. SCHAR: What I'm trying to figure out is whether

he's trying to refresh recollection, in which case there's

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actually no particular question pending right now.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. What did you lie about on 4-20-06?

THE COURT: And, for the record, Mr. Moffitt, maybe

you want to clarify first if he can answer that based on his

memory or if he needs to look at the document.

MR. MOFFITT: Well, I asked him if he can tell me if

he didn't -- if he doesn't -- remember what he lied about on

4-20.

THE COURT: I do not think you asked that question.

So --

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. What did you lie to the government about on April 20th --

no, I'm sorry, on 3-9; that's the right one -- on March 9th,

19 -- 2006?

A. As I said, the whole case was about my conduct with Hamas

and other stuff, the money issue with Alexandria. So, the

questions came from both sides and, like, "Whom do you know in

Hamas? Did you work for Hamas? Did you do anything for

Hamas?"

And my questions were "No."

Q. So, you lied about Hamas on 4-20?

MR. SCHAR: I think --

BY THE WITNESS:

A. It could be right, uh-huh.

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MR. SCHAR: -- March 9th he's asking him.

MR. MOFFITT: March 9th. I'm sorry.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. It could be? You don't know what you lied about?

A. This is what I knew that I lied about. When they start

asking me questions about Hamas, my answers were not true.

Q. Okay.

Well, on March 9th, the first thing they asked you

about was the money you stole, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And they asked you about how much money you stole,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you, basically, told them that you stole the money,

but you stole it because you were afraid to ask for a raise?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay.

And you also acknowledged that you stole money in

2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005?

A. Correct.

Q. Right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And it totalled up to almost a quarter of a million

dollars; did it not?

A. Correct.

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Q. All right.

Well, did you lie when you told them that the money

that you collected in -- you didn't steal any of the money

that you collected at the mosque?

A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

Q. Did you lie --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- about whether you stole any money that you collected at

the mosque?

A. No.

Q. That was the truth?

A. Right.

Q. All right.

Now, when you lied, did the government make a list of

the things that you lied about?

A. I don't know. I mean, I could answer it in different way,

also, that later on they told me, "You lied about this, you

lied about this, you lied about that."

Q. All right.

Well, what did they tell you you lied about?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. What did they tell you you lied about?

Didn't you tell them that you didn't use fraudulent

invoices?

A. I'm sorry? If you just say the question, again.

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69

Q. Didn't you tell them in your theft that you didn't use

fraudulent invoices?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. That was a lie, right?

A. That was a lie, right.

Q. Okay.

And that wasn't about Hamas. That was about your

theft, right?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. Okay.

And they didn't stop dealing with you after you lied

to them, did they?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. The government did not stop dealing -- stop -- the

government didn't stop dealing with you after you lied to

them?

A. No, they kept asking me the questions.

Q. Ultimately, you admitted that you never asked for a pay

raise, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. So, initially, you lied about that, as well, right?

A. I'm sorry, what was your question, again?

Q. Initially, you lied about the pay-raise situation?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And, then, you admitted that you had received a pay raise,

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70

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. So, you lied about that, as well?

A. Wrong.

Q. Oh, okay.

So, when you said you didn't -- the reason you stole

the money was you didn't get a pay raise -- then you admitted

that you had a pay raise -- that you did get a pay raise --

that wasn't a lie?

A. It's a compound question. Which one is the -- which is

the question?

Q. Are you a lawyer?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. You --

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I object. It is compound. So,

I'll object to the --

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SCHAR: -- compound nature of the question.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. Yeah, I -- I look at TV. I watched lawyers a lot.

THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry?

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Okay. Good.

(Laughter.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

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71

Q. Did you report that to Hamas?

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I watched TV and lawyers.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Did you report what you watched about lawyers to Hamas?

A. I reported you when you was interview with O'Reilly.

Q. You saw me on an interview with Bill O'Reilly?

A. Yeah, I saw you on an interview with Bill O'Reilly.

Q. Sir, I've never been on an interview with Bill O'Reilly.

Never in my life.

A. On Fox News, sir, after al-Arian convictions.

Q. I was never. I was never interviewed. I refused to go on

Bill O'Reilly.

A. You was there, sir. Anyway --

(Laughter.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. I was there? All right.

THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Moffitt, let us move on.

(Laughter.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Well, while you were watching me, let's talk about you.

A. Good.

Q. Okay?

Now, you received a pay raise, didn't you?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

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72

Q. And you received a pay raise before March 9th, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. So, when you told somebody that you stole money because

you didn't get a pay raise, you lied about it?

A. Correct.

Q. Thank you.

Now, among the things you did with the money that you

stole is you built an apartment in Gaza, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And how much was that?

A. 25,000.

Q. 25,000?

A. Right.

Q. Is it $25,000 today and was it a different amount on March

9th?

A. No. At that time, it was 25. It may have been March it

was 35 or so.

Q. Did you tell the government it was 40,000?

A. Could be 40,000.

Q. So, today it was 25, but then it was 40?

A. No. What I'm saying, like, I started with that number.

It could be, like, 40,000 in March.

Q. Did you tell the government on March 9th that it was

$40,000?

A. Correct.

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73

Q. Okay.

But today you're telling us it was 25?

A. That's -- and I said the number I started with, right.

Q. Well, weren't you supposed to be telling the truth, sir?

A. Right.

Q. And you're supposed to be -- and, in fact --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- in this courtroom, you held your hand up, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You swore on a bible, right?

A. Correct. No, I -- I -- didn't touch a bible, no. I --

Q. You didn't touch a bible?

A. Right.

Q. But you --

A. I swore.

Q. But you affirmed you'd tell -- to tell the truth, correct?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And you know that if you don't tell the truth, you could

be charged with perjury, right?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. So, what happened between March 9th and today to reduce

the value of the property from 40,000 to 25?

A. Nothing happened. I said -- I started by saying 25. Then

I said it ended up with 40,000. So, that's the number you got

there.

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74

Q. Well, wait a minute. But you told us 25 here.

A. Correct.

Q. Thank you.

Now, originally, when you went in on March 9th, you

went in and the FBI talked to you first about the fraud that

you were involved in; am I right?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And it was you who brought up Hamas and, actually, it was

you who first brought up the issue of Ramadan; am I right?

A. Ramadan?

Q. You talked with the FBI. When you talked with the FBI,

you were the person that brought up anything having to do with

Hamas, right?

A. I'm sorry, if you rephrase the question, again, please?

Q. When you spoke with the FBI on March 9th --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- it was you who brought up the issue of Hamas?

A. No, sir. I was there to answer their questions.

Q. Well, they -- the first set of questions they asked you

were -- had nothing to do with Hamas, right?

A. Right.

Q. Had to do with your fraud, right?

A. On the first day, there was mix of questions, this and

that.

Q. Do you recall, at 11:01 a.m., it was explained to you that

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since you mentioned the Holy Land Foundation -- which provides

funds to Hamas -- that there was an agent who would like to

speak to you?

Do you recall that?

A. On which date, sir?

Q. March 9th.

A. Uh-huh, right.

Q. So, it was you who brought up Holy Land and Hamas,

correct?

A. No, no. You're saying that they said that, right?

Q. "They" being the FBI.

A. The FBI, right.

Q. That's what they said --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- that you brought it up.

A. I brought it up?

Q. Yes, that you brought up Holy Land. That you were the

person who brought up Holy Land and Hamas.

A. No, sir. The question was: "Did you ever send money to

Hamas or to Palestine?"

I said, "Yes, I through -- I used to send money to

Palestine through the Holy Land Foundation."

Q. All right.

So, you didn't bring it up, correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. And --

A. That was based on the question.

Q. Okay.

And, then, you met Lara Burns, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, then you were asked whether you were -- had ever been

a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you lied about that?

A. No. I said the truth about that.

Q. Okay.

It isn't that you initially stated that "he had never

been a member and that he did not pay dues"?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. You didn't say that at first?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. That you had never been a member of the Muslim Brotherhood

and you didn't pay dues; you never said that?

A. Yeah, that's what I said. I am a sympathizer with the

Brotherhood, right; but, I never did dues. Right, uh-huh.

Q. Okay.

So, you were a supporter, not a member; is that what

you're saying?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And you can be a supporter of Hamas and not a member, too,

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77

correct?

A. Well, yeah, absolutely.

But you are not referring to me, sir. You're

referring to, like, in public, correct?

Q. Excuse me?

A. Are you referring to me that I could be a member or

supporter, or are you referring this thing in general?

Q. I'm saying, in general, you can be a supporter of Hamas

and not be a member?

A. True, yes, correct.

Q. When did you start sending money to the Holy Land to

Hamas?

A. I started doing that since the start of the intifada, in

'87.

Q. Well, there wasn't anything like Hamas before 1987, was

there?

A. That's -- the intifada started in 1987 -- late '87; then

went on '88; and, then, there was something called Occupied

Land Foundation. We used to collect money and send it through

the Occupied Land Foundation. And, then --

Q. That's not what I asked you, sir.

A. Yes.

Q. Hamas started in 1987; did it not?

A. Correct.

Q. So, you couldn't send money to Hamas before 1987, because

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it didn't exist, correct?

A. Before 1987, correct. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. All right.

And when did you stop sending money to Hamas?

A. I think in late 2001.

Not to Hamas. To Holy Land Foundation and, then,

Hamas. Right.

Q. Oh, well, but we know and you know -- and you've said in

your interviews -- that sending money to Holy Land was like

sending money to Hamas, correct?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. So, when you sent money to Holy Land, you were sending

money to Hamas, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You don't want to mislead us about that, do you?

A. Correct.

Q. All right.

And you stopped sending money to Hamas in

2000-and-what?

A. I continued to send money to Hamas after 2001, but not

through the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. All right.

So, you continued to send money to Hamas post-2001.

When did you stop?

A. Probably -- what -- we are in 2006.

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Q. So, you were sending money to Hamas --

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I don't think he's answered.

THE COURT: I am sorry? I cannot hear you.

MR. SCHAR: I'm not sure he answered. I'm not sure

he had actually answered the question.

THE WITNESS: I did not answer, no.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I'm thinking about the day, but I don't have a date.

Maybe, like, two years ago, year-and-a-half ago. Things like

that.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. So, you don't remember. It was either three years ago or

a year-and-a-half ago?

A. No, I'm not saying three years ago. I'm saying two years

or year-and-a-half ago.

Q. Now it's two years and a year-and-a-half ago?

A. You said three. I didn't say three. I said two.

Q. Didn't you --

MR. MOFFITT: Can you read back what his answer was,

please?

His first answer, please, may I have it read back?

THE COURT: Let me go back to where you started this

line of questioning.

(Whereupon, the record was read by the Court.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

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Q. All right. Let's go to two years ago.

Two years ago it was in 2004?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. Now, you were aware that Hamas was a designated

organization; were you not?

A. Yes, I was aware, uh-huh.

Q. And Hamas was first designated in 1995, correct?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. And you continued sending money to Hamas at least to

1995 -- to 2005 -- right?

A. Correct.

Q. Ten --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Ten years after it was designated, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And, then, Hamas was again designated in 1997; am I right?

A. Right, uh-huh.

Q. And you continued to send money after that?

A. Correct.

Q. And, then, Holy Land was designated, correct?

A. 2001, correct.

Q. And you continued to send money after that?

A. Correct.

Q. In March of 2006 -- March 9th --

A. Uh-huh.

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Q. -- again -- you told the FBI that you would not find any

computers with Hamas-related material on them, right?

A. I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time hearing you, sir.

Q. All right. Let's see if I can speak English more clearly.

A. Good. Please.

Q. All right.

In March -- on March 9th --

A. Right.

Q. -- 2005 --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- you told the FBI that they would not find any computers

with Hamas-related material on them, correct?

A. On, what?

Q. On them. T-h-e-m, "them."

A. You said 2005.

Q. In 2006, did you tell --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- the FBI --

A. Right.

Q. -- that they would not find any computers with

Hamas-related material on them?

A. You mean my computers?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. That was a lie, right?

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A. That was a lie.

Q. Now, on March 9th, 2006, you were not arrested, were you?

A. No.

Q. You were allowed to leave, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. The next time you met with the agents was 3-13 -- March

13th -- 2006?

A. Uh-huh, correct.

Q. Do you remember what you lied about that time?

A. Maybe everything. I don't remember.

Q. Maybe everything?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Okay.

Well, let's -- did you lie about telling the

government that the reason that you wanted money to go -- you

sent money -- to Hamas was you wanted it to go to the needy

people?

A. No, I didn't lie about that.

Q. That's why you sent money to Hamas, right?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. You are from where in the occupied territories?

A. I am from Gaza Strip, a city called Khan Yunus.

Q. All right.

And is that where you grew up, sir?

A. That is where I grew up, sir, yes.

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Q. All right.

And that is inside the occupied territories?

A. Inside the occupied territories, right.

Q. Okay.

And there were needy people there?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. There were needy people there?

A. Maybe 90 percent. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was some of the things they needed?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. And what was some of the things they needed?

A. They needed food, clothing. They need books, school

stuff. I mean, things like the ordinary belongings. Things

like everyone -- every human needs.

Q. Sort of the basics of life?

A. Basics of life, right, exactly.

Q. And that wasn't being provided for them?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. The basics of life were not -- was not -- being provided

for them?

A. By who?

Q. Well, let's try the group that occupied the territories.

Was it being provided by the Israelis?

A. You mean the Israelis, did they provide these things to

the Palestinians?

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Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. All right.

Well, who provided it to the Palestinians, the basics

of life?

A. Everyone got to really work for his own there. I mean,

some people has friends outside, such as myself and my family.

Some people work hard there. Some people just, like, get some

help from others.

Q. Did there come a time when Hamas provided the basics of

life?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Well, what did Hamas provide in Khan Yunus?

A. There are a lot of needy people. There are a lot of

destroyed home by the Israelis. So, they provided shelters,

homes. They provided basic needs, again.

Q. There were a lot of destroyed homes by the Israelis.

Would you tell us about that?

A. Yes, there was a lot of destroyed homes by the Israelis.

Q. Why would the Israelis destroy homes?

A. Collective punishment.

Q. Collective punishment.

I don't know what you mean by that. Tell me what you

mean by that.

A. I mean, sometimes there is, like, some -- let's say, like,

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if there is a rocket fired from a certain area. They want to

stop firing that rocket. So, they will go to that area and

destroy the area.

Q. And how would they destroy these homes?

A. By bulldozers. I mean, by bulldozers and the tanks.

Q. Would they tell people that that's what they were going to

do or would they just come up with the tanks and the

bulldozers and just destroy the homes?

A. Long time ago, they used to give them warning. Then they

start just, like, going there without any warnings.

Q. And, so, when you were contributing to Hamas, you were

trying to help those people?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay.

Was there anybody other than Hamas there to help

those folks?

A. Yes. There were other organizations helping the

Palestinians.

Q. Now, in 1987 -- you said Hamas had come into existence in

1987, correct?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. How long had the occupation existed prior to 1987?

A. Starting June or July, 1967. So, that could be, what? 32

years, I think, or something like that.

Q. Well, '67 to '87 is 20 years.

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A. 20 years. Okay.

Q. You agree with me that's 20 -- it was 20 years?

A. Yeah, yeah, 20 years. You're right about this.

Q. How old are you, sir?

A. I'm now 42 years old, sir.

Q. So, most of your life there was an occupation?

A. Yeah. I was there till about 18-and-a-half, 19. Then I

came United States 22 years ago.

Q. Now, let me ask you another question.

A. All right.

Q. You're not a citizen of the United States, are you?

A. Correct, I'm not.

Q. Now, on 3-13-2006 -- March 13th, 2006 --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- you told the FBI that you were pro-Bush, right?

A. I was, but not -- no, I was. I said -- there was a

question about, like, Bush and something. And I was pro-Bush

because I didn't like Clinton the year 2000. And, then -- no,

I was not -- then I became not -- pro-Bush.

Q. Okay.

So, that was the truth, correct?

A. That was the truth, yes, uh-huh.

Q. Okay.

Do you recall on March 13th, 2006, asking, "What will

happen to me when I'm charged"?

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A. What will happen to me if I will be charged?

Q. When -- well, I'm using the word "when you were charged."

Do you recall asking that question?

A. I don't recall then, sir.

Q. All right.

Do you recall somebody telling you that you were

looking at five years?

A. Maybe so. I'm not really recalling the time. But, I

mean, I was looking for a serious time. That's what I was

told.

Q. Now, amongst the things that the Holy Land Foundation did

was it sent money to the refugee camps, right?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. All right.

There are refugees in the occupied territories?

A. Yes, sir, there are.

Q. What are they refugees from?

A. From cities inside what's called now the State of Israel.

Q. Well, how did these people get to be refugees?

A. They were forced to leave their homes.

Q. And when did that occur?

A. 1948.

Q. And, so, those refugee camps have existed since 1948?

A. Correct.

Q. And there are people still living in refugee camps in

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2006?

A. Correct.

Q. That's one of the reasons you contributed to Hamas,

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. How many refugee camps are there?

A. I mean, I know in Khan Yunus there are two. In Gaza,

there are more than three -- I mean, there's a big -- there's

a lot of refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza and outside

Palestine: Lebanon, Jordan, Syria.

Q. And these are Palestinian refugee camps?

A. That is correct.

Q. And these were people who used to live in what is

Palestine or greater Israel?

A. I mean, before, in 1948, they moved mostly to Lebanon,

Syria, West Bank and Gaza. And, then, the second war, 1967,

you got two kind of refugees: Refugees from what's called

Israel and refugees from West Bank and Gaza.

Q. Okay.

What are the conditions in the refugee camps?

A. I never lived in one, but when I used to go to school when

I was a little kid, I used to pass through the refugee camps.

It's very bad.

Q. Well, when you tell me it's very bad, tell me about them.

A. I mean, you can imagine, like, 30,000 -- 30,000 -- people

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living in one -- one -- kilomet- -- one square kilometer. So,

they will have, like, two rooms.

I mean, I have friends from the refugee camps because

that's the school we -- we -- went to; and, sometimes you

go -- I used to go -- visit. So, just like, I mean, a small

-- a small -- apartment trailer with two rooms -- two

bedrooms -- one bath and a small kitchen. It's very small --

very small -- places to live in.

Q. What about their conditions, in terms of healthcare and

various other things? The things of life that you talked

about.

A. They don't have any air-condition. I mean, the home --

Q. I'm not talking about air-condition. I'm talking about

food and water and various other things.

A. They used to get, really, assistance from the United

Nation. There is United Nation section for the refugees. So,

they used to wait in line and get, like, the basic supports

from -- by the United Nation.

Q. And the Israelis don't support people in the refugee

camps, either?

A. No, sir.

Q. Is that a reason why you became involved with Hamas?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, in fact, you became the representative for the Holy

Land Foundation in Rome, Georgia, correct?

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A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. What year did you do that?

A. Starting in 1993 till the closing of the Holy Land

Foundation, 2001, the Holy Land Foundation used to call on me

that, "We have a guest speaker." And, then, I used to arrange

with them when is a good time to bring him over to Rome, speak

and -- or sometimes to Atlanta, and -- collect funds.

Q. Now, let's talk about these guest speakers for a moment.

These were people from where?

A. Again, before, like, probably we are talking about '93,

'94, '95 -- before Hamas was designated as terrorist

organization -- many, they were from Jordan and inside the

occupied territories.

Q. Okay.

And they would be able to get visas and come to the

United States?

A. That's why I had -- that's how they came in here, yes,

sir.

Q. All right.

And you would have to get a visa through the United

States government, correct?

A. Through the embassy there, yes, sir.

Q. All right.

And they would come and speak about, what?

A. They would speak about the bad, terrible situation over

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the Palestinians and need for the basic livings.

Q. Now, on 3-14 -- again, that's March 14th -- you told the

government that the money from HLF went to Hamas

organizations, including the al-Salam Hospital known as the

Hospital of Peace, right?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. And to libraries?

A. Correct.

Q. How long have you been in this country, sir?

A. 22 years, sir.

Q. Okay.

(Brief pause.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Bear with me, sir.

A. Okay.

(Brief pause.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Now, you told the FBI on 3-16 -- I believe that's right --

that you believed that the checks sent to HLF would be

distributed to the infrastructure of Hamas, right?

A. I'm sorry, sir?

Q. That the checks that went from HLF would be distributed to

the infrastructure of Hamas, correct?

A. Did I say that?

Q. Yes.

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A. You're reading that from the script, sir?

Q. No matter where I'm reading it from, did you say that?

A. No. Sir, I said -- if I remember, I said -- that the

money was sent from the Holy Land Foundation to institutions

run by Hamas.

Q. Okay.

And tell us what those institutions were.

Was the Islamic Society of Gaza?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. The Islamic University?

A. Correct.

Q. Let me -- let me -- say it -- let me try to say it, okay?

Al-Mujamah?

A. Al-Mujamah Islamiya, sir. "The Islamic Compound," you can

call it.

Q. Okay.

And that has a center with a school?

A. That has a health center, school, kindergarten, and so on.

Right.

Q. And did you tell the FBI that it was hard to tell if any

of these funds were filtered to the military side?

A. Correct.

Q. That was the truth, wasn't it?

A. That was the truth, yes, sir.

(Brief pause.)

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BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. You spoke about a person called Iyad Hindi?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. And he is a person that you knew?

A. Yes, sir, uh-huh.

Q. And he is a person that -- I can't remember exactly what

you said about Mr. Hindi, but was Mr. Hindi somebody you

talked about sending you the envelope?

A. No, sir -- yes. Yeah, he did talk to me about the

envelope. Yes, sir.

Q. All right.

And you talked about Mr. Hindi on 3-17-2006. Do you

recall?

A. It could be, yes, uh-huh.

Q. Do you remember telling the FBI that the reason you

believed that Mr. Hindi had something to do with Hamas was

that because he lived in Kuwait?

A. I'm not really sure, sir.

MR. MOFFITT: May I approach?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Would you read the highlighted portion to yourself?

A. Okay.

(Document tendered.)

(Brief pause.)

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BY THE WITNESS:

A. Yeah, okay. That's difference from your statement, sir.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Okay.

Did you tell them that he lived in Kuwait?

A. Yes, sir, uh-huh.

Q. And that most of the Hamas leaders were from Kuwait?

A. That he knew -- he knew -- some of the Hamas leaders.

Q. Did you tell them that most of the Hamas leaders were from

Kuwait?

A. No, sir, I didn't say most. I said he knew some of the

leaders of Hamas that lived in Kuwait.

Q. And that's the reason why you thought he was Hamas?

A. No, no, no, no. That's -- that's -- wrong. I did not say

that, sir.

I said, "He's a Hamas, but he knows some of the Hamas

leaders because he used to live in Kuwait.

"How did he come to know those Hamas leaders?

"Those Hamas leaders used to live in Kuwait."

Q. Didn't you describe Mr. Hindi to the FBI as politically

favoring Hamas?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was the term that you used, wasn't it?

A. Yeah, yeah. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. All right.

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What year was the Oklahoma City MAYA Convention?

A. I think it was either '91, '92. I'm not really sure, sir.

Q. Did you tell the FBI on March 17th that the Oklahoma City

MAYA Convention was in 1994?

A. Yeah, I could say that. Right, uh-huh.

Q. So, you're not really sure when it was, are you?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. You didn't tell the jury that on yesterday -- when Mr.

Schar was asking you questions -- that you weren't really

sure, did you?

A. You know, I mean, the first meetings with the FBI about

these things, you are under pressure. So, sometimes you miss

a year here and a year there. So, that's true, yes.

Q. Well, did you tell them it was 1990?

A. Because I knew that Oklahoma City held more than one time

convention -- MAYA Convention; so, yes, sir.

Q. But you're not really sure, are you?

A. I mean, I'm sure it was in Oklahoma City two times, but,

you know, the year is -- it's probably because that's 16 years

ago, sir.

Q. All right.

You discussed something called Charitable

Departments, correct?

A. Charitable Departments, correct, yes.

Q. What are Charitable Departments?

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A. Those are what we call in Arabic "lajani (phonetic) zakat"

in West Bank, sir.

Q. Zakat?

A. Zakat, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And what are their functions?

A. As I said, they are existing West Bank, not Gaza Strip.

They collect the zakat, which is money that every Muslim must

pay out of his money for -- from the rich to the -- to the --

needy and to the poor.

Q. Now, some of these pamphlets that you distributed had

solicitations for the zakat, didn't it -- did they not -- for

the charitable organizations?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. And that was also to supply people in the occupied

territories with the necessities of life, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, on -- there was an individual whose last name is

spelled N-i-m-r; is that right? Or is that an organization?

A. I'm sorry? M --

Q. N --

A. N --

Q. -- i-m-r.

A. Oh, that's a person, sir.

Q. All right.

And you discussed that person with the FBI; did you

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not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And money went to him, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you were asked whether the money went to him --

whether it went to the military wing, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you said it's hard to track --

A. Correct.

Q. -- correct?

And that was the truth, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you met with the FBI on -- regarding, again, on --

4 -- on 3-23-2006, correct?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Now, on 3-23-2006, you told the FBI that the last time you

had contact with Dr. Ashqar was in 1994?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. Was that a lie?

A. No, that was not a lie.

Q. That was the truth?

A. I said in 1994?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. That is correct. That is the truth.

Q. And that was prior to Hamas becoming a designated

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organization, correct?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

(Brief pause.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Let me ask you -- let me change subjects for just a

moment, okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Now, when you were stealing money from your employer --

A. Yes, sir.

Q. -- was your wife aware of it?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay.

Now, you had an addition made to your house, correct?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And that was the reason that you gave the FBI for stealing

$91,000 in a year, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. Was your wife aware of the addition?

A. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Q. She was aware of your salary where you were working, as

well, right?

A. No.

Q. She wasn't?

A. Uh-huh.

(Brief pause.)

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BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Bear with me, again, a second, sir.

(Brief pause.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Now, these charitable organizations that you talked about,

the charitable committees --

A. Yes, sir.

Q. -- about 85 percent of them are run by Hamas, correct?

A. Yes, sir, uh-huh.

Q. How many speeches, sir, did you sponsor in the United

States?

A. How many -- I'm sorry?

Q. Speeches. People coming and making speeches.

A. Oh, how many persons, you mean?

Q. Yeah. Well, speeches, persons.

A. Okay.

I mean, I don't remember the number, but quite a good

number.

Q. You don't remember how many?

A. No, I don't remember, sir.

Q. Did you publicize it?

A. Publicize, what?

Q. The fact that somebody was coming to speak.

A. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Q. Did you give out leaflets with regard to it?

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100

A. I used to make the announcement in the mosque or calling

others. And whenever there's a function outside the mosque,

yes, we would make a leaflet and make a distribution for that

leaflet.

Q. What happened to those leaflets?

A. What happened to them?

Q. Yes.

A. I don't know. They were destroyed, gone.

Q. They were destroyed?

A. Right.

But, I mean, everyone take one. He knows if he want

to come, he can. If not, then he will just do whatever with

it.

Q. You didn't keep it -- keep --

A. I'm sorry?

Q. -- any of them?

You didn't keep any of them?

A. I kept some. Then I don't know what happened to them.

Q. All right.

And the magazines that you talked about --

A. Correct.

Q. -- distributing, did you keep any of those?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where are they today?

A. I'm sorry?

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101

Q. Where are they today?

A. I think when the FBI came and searched the house, they

took almost everything.

Q. Took almost everything?

A. Yeah, concerning the magazines. Right, uh-huh.

Q. They took the magazines, as well?

A. I think so, yes, sir.

Q. Okay.

Now, among the things that were found when your house

was searched was a lockbox; am I right?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. And in that lockbox was $29,500, correct?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. And that was money that was proceeds that you -- of your

theft?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. What happened to that money?

A. It's in the hand of the FBI now.

Q. Do you still have those documents that Mr. Schar showed

you in front of you?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

MR. MOFFITT: May I approach the witness?

THE COURT: You may.

And just note for the record what the exhibit sticker

is, please.

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102

MR. MOFFITT: Yes, ma'am.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. I'm going to want you to look at C and D in here, okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Would you do that?

A. Okay. This is C.

Q. Okay.

Would you look with me?

A. I'm sorry.

Q. Do you see at the top of it a fax number?

A. Yeah, it says, "From," and then a fax -- a fax -- number.

That is correct, yes, sir.

Q. Would you read that number, please, for me?

A. 703-237-9851.

Q. Are you familiar with what that number is?

A. No, sir.

Q. All right.

Would you also look at D, please?

A. D.

Okay, I'm looking at D.

Q. Do you see a fax number on that?

A. That is correct.

Q. Would you read that number for me, please?

A. Yes. It's 703-237-9851. It's the same number.

Q. Thank you, sir.

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103

A. You're welcome.

Q. You can put them back.

(Brief pause.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Now, you spoke with the agents, again, on 5-17?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. All right.

And there was some discussion about that envelope,

correct?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. Do you remember telling them that you didn't open the

envelope, sir?

A. That is correct.

Q. That was a lie?

A. That was a lie, yes, sir.

Q. All right.

In fact, you opened it a year later?

A. That is correct, yes, sir.

Q. All right.

And that was this important envelope that was

important to get to somebody; you didn't get it to that

person; and, you opened it and you waited for a year to open

it, correct?

A. Because I kept it in a safe place and just forgot about

it. When I moved, I -- then that time I find out that I still

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104

have that package.

Q. And you didn't get it to anybody?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. You didn't get it to the person that it was supposed to go

to?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did you tell the FBI that you didn't recall reading

anything in the FBI --

A. Yes.

Q. -- in the envelope?

A. Yeah. Because I was surprised to see that envelope. But,

I mean, the last time I saw it was maybe in '96, '97. Then

you're talking about ten years later. So --

Q. And you told them absolutely not -- that you read

anything -- correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. So, you lied to them, then?

A. Yeah, because I was surprised to see that package there.

Q. I see.

And when was the first time you bothered to tell them

the truth?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. When was the first time -- the first time -- that you

bothered to tell them the truth?

A. I mean, after they faced me with all these lies. And,

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105

then, I decided to say the truth.

Q. When was that, sir?

A. Maybe it was on and off. Like, sometimes I would lie,

sometimes I would say the truth.

Q. Well, I'm not asking you about -- I'm asking you about

this particular incident.

A. Oh, this particular -- okay.

Q. When did you tell the FBI the truth about that?

A. Maybe a week later or so.

Q. A week later.

Who did you tell?

A. When I was approached by the FBI, again, about the same

package.

Q. Who did you tell?

A. The FBI. Mark Rotti.

Q. Do you know whether he wrote a report about it?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. Do you know whether he wrote a report about you changing

your mind about what you did?

A. Maybe it's in the scripts there. I don't know.

Q. Now, this was in May when you lied about this, correct?

A. Correct, yes.

About the package, you mean?

Q. Yes.

A. Uh-huh.

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106

Q. And that wasn't the first thing you lied about, correct?

A. About the package, right?

Q. Yeah.

A. Correct.

Q. The package was not the first thing you lied about?

A. No, no, please. Now are you talking about the package or

something else? So, let's be specific.

Q. No, sir. I'm asking you a very simple question.

A. Okay.

Q. The package was not the first thing you lied about?

A. That is correct.

Q. So, you were lying throughout your interviews with the

FBI, correct?

A. Not through the lying, but for the first meetings, yes,

sir.

Q. Well, this wasn't one of the first meetings. This one was

in May?

A. Yes, this was in May, but it was the first time about this

package, sir.

Q. I see.

So, what you would do is you would see if you could

get away with a lie and see how long that would work, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And nobody said after they caught you in a lie that they

would no longer deal with you, correct?

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107

A. Correct.

(Brief pause.)

BY THE WITNESS:

A. But what I'm saying, they told me, like, "We know that

you've been lying. So, it's better you say the truth.

Otherwise, you will be more in trouble by keep lying."

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. They said to you. Tell me who "they" are, who said that

to you.

A. All these meetings I'm talking about -- talking about --

both the FBI, Mark Rotti; and, the ICE, Matthew Saylor.

Q. All right.

How about Ms. Dammers? Did she tell you anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. How about Lara? Did she tell you anything?

A. No, sir.

Q. But every time they lie -- you lied -- and they caught

you, they didn't stop dealing with you, right?

A. No, no, but they cautioned me that, "Mohamed, you are

lying."

Q. I see.

So, you would lie and they would say, "Don't lie,"

right?

A. No, no.

Q. And you would continue to lie and they would say, "Don't

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108

lie," right?

A. No, no, not like in that exactly scenario.

But, like, they will take my words; they will record

them down; and, then, they will ask me another -- about

another -- issue; I would lie, again; and, then, few days

later they will go back to the first issue and, then, they

will -- I mean, I will -- say probably different thing or so.

Then I'll be proven to be lying.

So, finally, I decide to say the truth about the

whole thing.

Q. I see.

So, you waited until somebody could prove that you

were lying to change what you said, correct?

A. I was lying, thinking that I could go away lying and,

then, the FBI will not call me, again, for interview.

Q. I understand, sir, but I'm asking you my question.

A. Right.

Q. You would lie, right?

A. Right.

Q. A few days would pass, right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And they would come back to you and they would tell you

that you were lying, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And, then, you'd change your story, right?

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109

A. (No response.)

Q. Right?

A. Well, not changing the story, but they will tell me, "You

are lying about this and that."

Q. All right.

And, then, you would say something different?

A. Then I would say the truth, sir.

Q. Then you would say the truth.

And the only person we have to rely on that is you,

correct?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. All right.

But let me see if I got it right.

A. Right.

Q. You would lie, they would catch you, right?

A. Right.

Q. And they would continue to deal with you, and then you

would lie, again?

A. No, no, that's not true, sir. That's -- that's -- not

what I said. I said --

Q. I don't care what you said.

You lied, right?

A. Right.

Q. The FBI would catch you in a lie --

A. Right.

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110

Q. -- right?

A. Right.

Q. Then you'd find something else to lie about, correct?

A. No.

Q. Oh, you only lied one time?

A. No, no, no.

MR. SCHAR: I'm going to object. I think he's made

it clear. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You can answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I'm sorry, say your question, again.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. You lied many times, correct?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And each time you lied, you'd get caught, correct?

A. Now, the first --

Q. Answer my question: Each time you lied, you'd get caught?

A. I'll answer your question if you give me a time.

My --

Q. That requires just "Yes" or "No."

Each time you lied, you'd get caught?

A. The answer is "Yes," but there is an explanation, sir.

Q. Well, there's an explanation of why you lied?

A. No, sir, not that explanation.

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111

Q. There's an explanation why you got caught?

A. No. If you want to give me a minute, then I can tell you

what is it.

Q. Well, I'm not sure I want to know.

A. Well, it's up to you.

Q. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Let me see if we can get this right.

A. Right.

Q. You were being interviewed by the FBI --

A. Right.

Q. -- right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. The FBI told you from the very beginning that the thing

that was most important was the truth, right?

A. Correct.

Q. That they were willing to deal with you as a potential

witness if you would tell them the truth, correct?

A. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. That's not correct.

Q. Okay.

A. The cor- -- no, no.

Q. Let me see if this is right.

A. Okay.

Q. Let me try, again.

A. Okay.

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112

Q. You certainly got the belief from the FBI that it was

important for you to tell the truth, correct?

A. It was every time that saying the truth is the right thing

to do.

Q. No, let me -- again, answer my question.

The FBI told you it was important for you to tell the

truth?

A. That is correct.

Q. Right.

And you were trying to get your sentence reduced,

correct?

A. Sir, we were not talking about sentencing that time, just

like --

Q. Listen to me for a second.

A. All right, uh-huh.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I object.

THE COURT: Mr. Moffitt, let him finish his --

MR. MOFFITT: Well, I --

THE COURT: -- response.

MR. MOFFITT: I didn't say --

THE COURT: Wait, wait.

MR. MOFFITT: -- that he was --

THE COURT: Mr. Moffitt --

MR. MOFFITT: -- talking about sentence, ma'am.

THE COURT: Mr. Moffitt, do not talk at the same time

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Shorbagi - cross by Moffitt

113

that I talk. We have been through this before. Joe cannot

take it down. You get to ask your questions, but he gets to

answer. If you both talk at the same time, Joe cannot take it

down, I cannot hear and the jury cannot hear.

MR. MOFFITT: Well, let me change the question, then.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

THE COURT: Ask your question.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. From the very beginning, you were asking the FBI questions

about what your sentence was going to be, correct?

A. I don't remember, sir.

Q. You were interested in what your sentence was going to be,

right?

A. Right.

Q. You wanted it to be as low as possible, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And one of the things you were told was that if you told

the truth, you could keep your sentence from being too high,

correct?

A. No, no, no, sir. That's not correct.

Q. Okay.

So, they said that you could lie and they would make

your sentence lower?

A. No, sir. If you give me a minute now, I'll explain it to

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114

you.

Q. I'm not sure I want you to explain it to me.

A. I mean, I will say what I said, sir.

Q. All right.

Did you have a concern about your sentence?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. And your concern was that your sentence was to be as low

as possible, correct?

A. But they were kept telling me that they are the

investigation and they have to turn the report to the

prosecutor; and, then, there is decision made by the

prosecution and --

Q. I'm not --

A. -- by the --

Q. -- asking you about the prosecutor's decision. I'm asking

you about in your mind --

A. Yes, sir.

Q. -- you wanted your sentence to be as low as possible?

A. Yeah, because I did not know what is the prosecution, the

FBI. I thought they're just, like, the same thing.

Q. Okay.

A. And they said they are investigation, not prosecution.

Q. And the prosecution, they -- the FBI -- told you that they

were going to talk to the prosecutor about your performance in

these interviews, didn't they?

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115

A. They said that, "We will turn the reports to the

prosecution." They --

Q. Right.

And, so, you knew if you lied, the FBI would tell the

prosecutor that you lied, correct?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. But you continued to lie, anyway?

A. Yeah, for the first few days, right.

Q. First few days?

We had -- we just discussed May 17th and you told me

you lied on that day?

A. No, I --

Q. That wasn't the first few days, was it?

A. No, I lied on a specific certain thing because I was

confused. See, that package there, it's been ten years that I

saw it before that.

Q. So, when you get confused --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- your first response to anything is to lie?

A. Wrong.

Q. Well, that's what you did that time, right? You were

confused, so you lied?

A. Sir --

Q. Your excuse for that lie is because you were confused --

A. No, sir.

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116

Q. -- correct?

A. That is a very specific thing that I did not even

recognize that there was a package there. Be specific, sir.

THE COURT: Mr. Moffitt, let me know when you are at

a good breaking point.

MR. MOFFITT: I'm at a good breaking point.

THE COURT: Okay.

We will pick up at 2:00 o'clock.

(Jury out.)

(Whereupon, a recess was taken at 12:50 o'clock p.m.,

until 2:00 o'clock p.m., of the same afternoon.)

* * * * *

I certify that the foregoing is a correct excerpt from the

record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

, 2007

Official Court Reporter

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