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1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

EASTERN DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Docket No. 03 CR 978

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. )

)

MUHAMMAD HAMID KHALIL SALAH AND )

ABDELHALEEM HASAN ABDELRAZIQ ASHQAR, ) Chicago, Illinois

) November 30, 2006

Defendants. ) 2:00 o'clock p.m.

E X C E R P T

TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE AMY J. ST. EVE, AND A JURY

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff: HON. PATRICK J. FITZGERALD

United States Attorney

BY: MR. JOSEPH M. FERGUSON

MR. REID J. SCHAR

MS. CARRIE E. HAMILTON

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 500

Chicago, Illinois 60604

For Deft. Salah: PEOPLE'S LAW OFFICES

BY: MR. MICHAEL EDWARD DEUTSCH

MS. ERICA THOMPSON

MR. BENJAMIN ELSON

1180 North Milwaukee Avenue

Chicago, Illinois 60622

For Deft. Ashqar: MR. KEITH ALLAN SPIELFOGEL

20 North Clark Street, Suite 1200

Chicago, Illinois 60602

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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):

For Deft. Ashqar (Cont'd): MR. WILLIAM MOFFITT

11582 Greenwich Point Road

Reston, Virginia 20194

Also Present: S/A BRADLEY BENAVIDES, FBI

S/A JILL PETTORELLI, FBI

Court Reporter: KATHLEEN M. FENNELL, CSR, RMR, FCRR

Official Court Reporter

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 2144A

Chicago, Illinois 60604

(312) 435-5569

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PROCEEDINGS RECORDED BY

MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY

TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER

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(Proceedings heard in open court:)

THE COURT: Mr. Schar, is your witness here?

MR. SCHAR: Yes, Judge, he's here.

THE COURT: Okay. Bring him in, and then we'll bring

in the jury.

Before the jury comes in, the latest weather forecast

is it's supposed to start snowing around rush hour time, and

they're predicting between 8 and 12 inches between midnight

tonight and 12:00 tomorrow.

Now, as soon as I do this, it's not going to snow,

but I'm inclined just to cancel court tomorrow. It was going

to be a half day anyway. You've represented, Mr. Ferguson,

you think you're going to rest next Friday regardless, and

even if it's the following Monday, we're still ahead of

schedule.

The other thing I could do is see what the weather is

and start calling people at 5:30 in the morning, but --

MR. MOFFITT: It's not going to help me very much.

THE COURT: I know that doesn't help you.

MR. DEUTSCH: That's fine, Judge.

MR. FERGUSON: We would have no objection to you

putting in a wake-up call to Mr. Moffitt at 5:30.

MR. MOFFITT: Thank you, Mr. Ferguson. Appreciate

you looking out for me.

THE COURT: I'll call you first, Mr. Ferguson.

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Is that acceptable?

MR. DEUTSCH: Fine with us.

THE COURT: All right. I'll let the jury know that

we won't have court, but, Mr. Deutsch, you're not off

completely because let's have a hearing on the expert issue at

10:00 tomorrow. That will give you time even if there is

snow.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

(Jury enters courtroom.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Mr. Moffitt, you may continue.

MOHAMED SHORBAGI, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY SWORN,

CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Let me change for a moment Mr. Shorbagi. On your

direct-examination, you spoke about the Hebron massacre. When

was that?

A. It was February '94.

Q. February 1994?

A. That is correct.

Q. All right. What was the Hebron massacre?

A. It happened in the city of Hebron, West Bank. People were

praying, that was during Ramadan time, praying the early dawn

prayer before sunrise. Dr. Baruch Goldstein got inside the

mosque and start shooting at the worshipers while they were

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prostrate on the ground, going down, and I think he killed,

according to the reports came from there, 29 and injured about

50.

Q. This Mr. Goldstein, he was a settler, a Jewish settler?

A. He was an Israeli settler, Jewish settler in the -- yes,

in a settlement in Hebron, right.

Q. And he shot people while they were praying?

A. Correct.

Q. Was that one of the reasons that you supported Hamas?

A. Supporting the Palestinians, yes, sir.

Q. Now, we were -- we were talking about your agreement with

the government, correct? You have an agreement with the

government.

A. Plea agreement, yes, sir.

Q. Plea bargain. You made a plea bargain, right?

A. Plea bargain, uh-huh.

Q. And when you first started meeting with the government --

just answer this one yes or no -- did the government tell you

that it was important for you to tell the truth?

A. Yes.

Q. And despite the fact that the government told you that it

was important for you to tell the truth, you lied and

continued to lie.

A. Correct. But, again, like the statement is wrong and

right. I lied, but not continued to lied.

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Q. Well, you had more than one meeting with the government.

A. Correct.

Q. And in -- in those several meetings that you had with the

government, you lied more than one time, correct?

A. Correct, but not continued to lie.

Q. The first time you went in was on March 6th, am I right?

A. 9th, I think.

Q. March 9th, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You lied in that meeting.

A. Correct.

Q. Then you went back after that.

A. Correct.

Q. You met with the government, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you lied in meetings after March 9th, correct?

A. Now, some lie, some true.

Q. But you did lie, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And we discussed it earlier. You lied on -- on May 17th,

correct?

A. And that is specific thing, the package, correct.

Q. Okay. So you didn't just lie one time. You lied several

times.

A. Correct.

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Q. And each time you lied, you got caught, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And after you got caught on each time, the government

continued to seek information from you, correct?

A. Correct, telling me say the truth.

MR. MOFFITT: Now, bear with me again for a second,

please.

(Pause.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Now, you entered a plea of guilty, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, your plea of guilty was not a plea of guilty to

everything that you did, was it?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you were told when you were talking to the government

and creating the statements that you talked about today that

lying to an FBI agent was a crime, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. But you lied to an FBI agent, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You were not charged with lying to an FBI agent, right?

A. Yes, but they said if you say the truth, that's something

else.

Q. You were not charged with lying to an FBI agent, were you?

A. Correct.

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Q. Okay. Now, also you, when you were taking the money from

your employer, in several of those years, you did not file any

tax returns on that money, did you?

A. For one year.

Q. You were not charged with that either, were you?

A. Correct.

Q. And you were not charged at all with the embezzlement

crime, were you?

A. What is that?

Q. Stealing from your employer.

A. Correct.

Q. The only thing you were charged with was the conspiracy to

provide material support, right?

A. Right.

Q. You were not charged with RICO.

A. What is RICO?

Q. Racketeering.

A. No.

Q. And as you told us today, you were providing money to

Hamas almost up to a year and a half ago, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, in your plea agreement, you agreed that the

government could prove certain facts, correct?

A. Um -- I don't understand question, sir.

MR. MOFFITT: May I approach, your Honor?

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THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Would you take a look at that, sir? Just read it to

yourself.

A. Just the first page or just --

Q. No, sir, I want you to look at the whole document because

I'm going to ask you about it.

A. The whole thing?

Q. The whole thing.

A. I mean we went over it with my lawyer before, so --

Q. I don't have a question in front of you. I just want you

to look at the document. I want to ask you a question about

the document.

A. Okay.

Okay. I'm through.

Q. Have you seen this document before?

A. Yeah, I've seen this before.

Q. That document is your plea agreement, is it not?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Or it's a copy of it, am I right?

A. It's a copy, you're right, uh-huh.

Q. And you signed this agreement, correct?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And you understood everything that was in it, correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. And, in fact, you were asked by a judge under oath whether

you understood everything that was in it.

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And you told the judge that you did understand everything

that was in it, right?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: Excuse me, Judge.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. I want you to look at Item Number 14. Is that your plea

agreement?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Item Number 14 says that you waived the statute of

limitations, correct?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. Can you tell me what that means?

A. Yeah, it was explained to me by my lawyer that I think

there is something in the law called the five years or the six

years limitation, and if this thing happened after -- this

being like five or six years, then there is some count in the

law that you will not be charged for or so.

And based on some of those things are going back to

the early '90s, so I'm waiving the statute of limitation based

on that.

Q. But you didn't plead to a crime that began in the early

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'90s, did you?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. Your crime, the crime that you pled to, began in,

according to your statement here -- hold on --

A. Yes, in --

Q. -- in 19 --

A. '97.

Q. -- '97, correct?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. In fact, the crime that they claim that you did began on

October 8th, 1997, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. So you didn't plead to a crime that began before 1997,

right?

A. No, was not -- the subject was not brought in as a crime.

Q. So but you waived the statute of limitations anyway?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. In fact, the date that your crime began on was

October 8th, 1997, correct?

A. I'm sorry, the question again?

Q. The crime that you pled guilty to began on October 8th,

1997.

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. Now, October 8th, 1997 was the day of the designation by

the Treasury Department of Hamas, correct?

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A. I did not know the exact, but I know it was '96, '97.

Q. All right. You didn't plead to a crime that began in

1995, did you?

A. No.

Q. And that was a day that you also know that Hamas was

designated, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. Who chose 1997?

A. I think the pros -- I mean the agreement between my lawyer

and the prosecution.

Q. The agreement between your lawyer and Ms. Dammers?

A. I think so, yes.

Q. Okay.

A. I mean in my presence, I'm sorry, my lawyer also.

Q. Your lawyer and Ms. Dammers, correct?

A. Myself and the lawyer and Ms. Dammers, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. But you were giving money to Hamas post the

designation in 1995, correct?

A. You mean both before or after?

Q. After the designation in 1995, you were giving money to

Hamas.

A. Correct, yes, sir, uh-huh.

Q. But you weren't charged with that either.

A. Yes, I mean according to the plea agreement.

Q. Well, wait a minute, sir. You just told me that the plea

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agreement started in 1997, right?

A. That's what I'm saying. I was not charged for the '95

according to the plea agreement.

Q. All right. Okay. I just want to be clear.

A. Good.

Q. This is, in fact, what you pled guilty to, correct?

THE COURT: Is that part of the plea agreement?

MR. MOFFITT: It's part of the plea agreement.

I'll show it to you.

THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.

MR. MOFFITT: It's what you gave me.

MR. SCHAR: Again, that's not the plea agreement.

It's the information.

(Counsel conferring.)

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. I want to talk to you about another section of the plea

agreement for a second.

Now, the government didn't accuse you of any violent

criminal activity, did they?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. The government didn't accuse you of any violent criminal

activity, correct?

A. No, no violence, no.

Q. And, in fact, they said they could change your deal if it

was found out that you were involved in any violent criminal

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activity, correct?

A. I mean if they found out that I'm involved in any

violence, yes, I mean, they could be bringing me to trial

again.

MR. MOFFITT: Excuse me, your Honor. It's taking me

a little longer to find what I'm looking for.

THE COURT: Take your time. That's fine.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Now, in your discussion with Mr. Schar, you said that you

were hopeful for a reduction, correct?

A. The government would recommend to the judge and the judge

would make the decision.

Q. Yeah, but you're hopeful that that happens, correct?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. All right. And so you want to please the government,

don't you?

A. No, sir. I want to say the truth.

Q. Just like you wanted to say the truth during the course of

the interviews that you had, correct?

A. Wrong.

Q. All right. So you changed your mind about that now.

A. Saying the truth, sir.

Q. Okay. Now, it is the government that will determine

whether or not you get the reduction, is it not?

A. No, sir.

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Q. Okay. It's not?

A. No, sir.

Q. Look at paragraph number 11, sir, of your plea agreement.

A. Number 11?

Q. Number 11.

A. Okay, I'm reading it.

Okay. There's a continuation on the second page

also?

Q. Did you read it?

A. I thought you said read the highlights. Is it the whole

paragraph?

Q. No, I said read 11.

A. Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

MR. SCHAR: I don't understand. If his recollection

needs to be refreshed, I don't believe that paragraph is

impeaching to what his answer just was.

MR. MOFFITT: I believe it's impeaching.

MR. SCHAR: Not based on the question that was asked.

MR. MOFFITT: I believe it's impeaching.

THE COURT: I will wait for the next question, and

then if there's another objection, you can make it. Overruled

for now.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: May I stay here for a second?

THE COURT: You may.

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BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Does it say, sir, "In addition, if the cooperation is

completed before sentencing, the government determines that

such cooperation qualifies as substantial assistance, the

government will consider whether to file a motion at

sentencing recommending a downward departure"?

A. Right.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I object. It's not impeaching.

MR. MOFFITT: It is impeaching. He said the judge

reduces the sentence.

MR. SCHAR: The judge does reduce the sentence.

THE COURT: Yes, sustained. The question wasn't who

makes the recommendation. The question was who --

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. Well, who makes the recommendation?

THE COURT: There you go.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. The government will make the recommendation.

BY MR. MOFFITT:

Q. You mean those people sitting in the front row that came

to see you testify?

A. The prosecution.

Q. Sitting in the front row right there, right? They're the

people that are going to make the recommendation, correct?

A. Only one woman right there, Ms. Kim Dammers, the

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prosecutor.

Q. Sitting in the front row, right?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. Now, the government also agreed to help you in some other

ways, did it not?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. It agreed to help your wife with an immigration problem,

correct?

A. No, not that regard.

Q. They didn't agree to help your wife with an immigration

problem?

A. To come back to the country. She was going to visit and

come back.

Q. So they did agree to help you get your wife back in the

country, right?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. What other ways did the government agree to help you?

A. In residing legally here in the States.

Q. Oh, you know that if you commit a felony in the United

States, you can be deported, right?

A. It's up to the judge.

Q. It's not up to the judge. It's up to Immigration. You

know that, don't you?

A. No.

Q. You didn't know that? Nobody told you that?

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A. You know, this is a long procedure. It's not an easy

thing like if you commit a felony, then you'll be deported.

Q. Nobody told you that?

A. Told me what?

Q. That you would be deported if you were convicted of a

felony?

A. If you break the law in this country and the government

decided that you are to be deported, I think that is an issue

there.

Q. But you're not going to be deported, correct?

A. If I am going to -- yes, sir, uh-huh.

Q. You're not going to be deported. And you broke the law in

this country, correct?

A. I broke the law in this country, yes, sir.

Q. And you broke the law in this country not with respect to

just material support, you broke the law in this country when

you lied to the government, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. You broke the law in this country when you embezzled

money, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And then you broke the law in this country when you

continued to give material support to Hamas post-1995,

correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

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Q. But you're not going to be deported.

A. Correct.

Q. The government's going to help you with that.

A. Correct.

Q. You can't go back to home, can you?

A. I can.

Q. You can go back to home? You're not afraid that the

Israelis would prosecute you?

A. I -- I don't know, sir.

Q. You don't know.

A. No.

Q. But you know that the Israelis have -- you've talked about

it in your direct-examination, that there's a relationship

between the Israelis and the United States, correct?

A. It's very well known, yes, sir.

Q. Very well known. And you know that all the information

that you gave to the United States would probably be given to

the Israelis, correct?

A. I don't know about that, sir.

Q. Well, you're concerned about it, aren't you?

A. I am concerned, but I don't know for a fact.

Q. But you are concerned about it, right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And if you go home to the occupied territories, you could

be prosecuted, correct?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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A. But now Gaza is not under the occupation, the Israeli

occupation.

Q. Okay. That's a recent phenomenon, correct?

A. One year, yes, sir.

Q. All right. So you're not worried about it because Gaza is

not under the occupation anymore?

A. Correct.

Q. But when Gaza was under the occupation, you would be

worried about it.

A. I think so.

Q. And if you were from the West Bank, you'd still be worried

about it, correct?

A. Correct.

MR. MOFFITT: Let me check.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. MOFFITT: I have no further questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch?

MR. DEUTSCH: Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Mr. Shorbagi --

A. Yes, sir.

Q. -- I represent Muhammad Salah.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You've never met Mr. Salah, have you?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

21

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, I want to discuss with you some of the interviews

that you gave to the FBI concerning this envelope that was

allegedly found in your house, okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Now, the first time you were confronted with it was on

April 28th, 2006, is that right?

A. I think so, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. And at that time, you were being interviewed by an

agent by the name of Rotti, R-O-T-T-I, right?

A. Rotti, uh-huh, yes, sir.

Q. And he's sitting right here in the courtroom today, right?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Did you know he was going to accompany you up here to

watch your testimony?

A. He got to be because I'm under the -- yes, sir. Uh-huh,

yes, sir.

Q. Now, Mr. Rotti, Agent Rotti actually showed you an open

manila envelope, right? Golden envelope, right?

A. Yeah, with a little tape, very old tape on it, yes.

Q. Okay. In fact, he actually took a document out of that

envelope and showed it to you, right?

A. Not that day.

Q. Well --

A. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I mean when he showed me the

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

22

envelope, I was surprised, and then I said, no, this is not my

envelope. Then I looked on the back, and there I saw my

handwriting, private, and I was -- I was not happy to see that

package.

And then, yes, I think either he got the documents

from the package or I got the documents and was reading the

first page, yes, sir.

Q. You don't remember exactly, right?

A. I don't remember if he, like, pulled those documents from

inside or I got -- or he was telling me see what is inside.

Q. Well, if I showed you the report that Agent Rotti wrote on

April 28th, might that refresh your recollection?

A. Yes, sir, uh-huh.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. Can I approach the witness,

Judge?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Just read this first --

A. Line?

Q. -- first paragraph, read it to yourself.

Just read it to yourself, and then I'll ask you a

question.

A. Yeah, that's what I'm doing now.

Q. All right.

A. Okay.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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Q. Okay. Is it not true, sir, that you viewed a document

written in Arabic which was contained in a gold manila

envelope?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And that document was written in Arabic, right?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And it was handed to you by Agent Rotti, right?

A. What happened is --

Q. Just yes or no, was it handed to you by Agent Rotti?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. Okay. And you looked at the document, and then you looked

at the envelope, right?

A. No, no, no. I looked at the envelope first and then I

looked at the documents.

Q. Okay. And they said that the document was found in a

briefcase, right?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And you said that you didn't know how it got into -- it

was your briefcase, but you said you didn't know how it got

into your briefcase, right?

A. Exactly, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And at that point, you were denying that that document

belonged -- someone -- you were implying that someone put it

in your briefcase, right?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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Q. Okay.

A. I'm sorry, that was -- the last line you said, what was

it?

Q. The implication was that you don't know how it got into

your briefcase, you didn't put it in your briefcase.

A. Exactly. I was so surprised to see it -- to see that

document there, right, that envelope.

Q. And you told him this is not my document. I don't know

how it got in my briefcase, right?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. Okay. And then -- you were shocked by it, though, right?

A. Exactly, yes.

Q. Okay. And then this was on April 28th, right?

A. Right, uh-huh.

Q. Then on May 17th, you had another interview with Agent

Rotti, correct?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And he again showed you the envelope, did he not?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And you told him that you don't believe that the

envelope -- you ever opened that envelope, correct?

A. True.

Q. And you also told him that you do not recall reading

anything in the envelope, right?

A. True.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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Q. And then you stated that you did not read any of the

documents from the envelope, absolutely not, right?

A. True, true.

Q. So first you told him in April that you don't know how the

envelope got into your briefcase.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And then in May 17th, you told him that you -- the

envelope was never opened and that you absolutely not read any

document in there, correct?

A. Correct.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. Just one second.

(Pause.)

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Then on five days later on May 22nd, you were interviewed

again. This time you were interviewed by Mr. Benavides,

right? He's the agent that's sitting at the table here with

the yellow tie.

Do you remember being interviewed by him? He came

down to Atlanta and interviewed you?

A. No, I don't --

Q. You don't remember seeing Mr. Benavides ever?

A. Is he here?

Q. Yeah. He's right here with the yellow tie right at the

end of the table?

A. Oh, oh, I'm sorry. Oh, yes, yes. I'm sorry, yeah, right.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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I'm sorry, I know him -- fine, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And he was an agent from Chicago, correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. And you told Agent Benavides that the first time

you saw the opened package, the opened envelope and its

contents was when Agent Rotti showed them to you after they

had been seized from the briefcase, right?

A. Yes, uh-huh -- no, no, okay, if I said the statement based

on that after such a long years, that was the first time I saw

the package, yes.

Q. And you were saying that the package that -- the first

time you saw that package opened was when the FBI had opened

it and showed it to you, right?

A. No, the FBI did not open it, sir.

Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your answer.

A. The FBI did not open the package. The package was opened.

Q. Well, did you tell Agent Benavides that the first time you

saw the opened package and its contents was when Special Agent

Rotti showed them to you after they had been seized from your

briefcase by the FBI?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. Okay.

A. That's what I'm saying. When Mr. Rotti, the FBI, showed

me the package, the package was already opened. I did not

open the package.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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Q. You didn't open it, though, right?

A. No, I did open it, sir.

Q. But you didn't tell Agent Benavides you opened it, right?

A. I mean, listen, this thing happened in '96. Then we're

talking about 2006.

Q. Well, sir, you're testifying about things that happened in

1990, in 1992 and '94 to this jury. You want them to believe

you about that, right?

A. Right.

Q. So you're telling me that what happened in '96 you don't

remember anymore?

A. No, I remember, sir. That's what happened later on.

Q. All right. So let me ask you this then.

A. All right.

Q. Did you state to Agent Benavides that you never opened the

package and never reviewed its contents?

A. If I said that, that was wrong, sir.

Q. Well, you weren't wrong. You were lying, right?

A. Or -- I'm not actually sure that I said the statement,

sir.

Q. Well, on 4-28 you told one story, that you don't know how

the package got in your briefcase.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. On 5-17, you said you absolutely not saw any documents or

never read any documents in that envelope, right?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

28

A. Right, uh-huh.

Q. And then on 5-22 to this agent here, you said that you

never saw the opened package and that you never reviewed its

contents.

A. Correct.

Q. So is it fair to say -- and then you said to Agent

Benavides that you thought it was possible that Mr. Hindi

opened the package at your house to review its contents, but

since Hindi was in the middle of moving may have left the

package with you for safe keeping.

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh. I remember saying that, right.

Q. That was a lie?

A. That was a lie, yes, sir.

Q. So you lied on April 28th one lie, on May 17th, you told a

different lie, and then to this agent here in Chicago, you

told yet another lie, right?

A. No. You've got to understand one thing that when I opened

the package --

Q. Just answer my question.

A. Okay.

Q. Is it false what you told Agent Benavides on May 22nd?

A. Based on few seconds in 1996, I did not recollect what

happened on those seconds in 1996. That's why I made those

statements, sir.

Q. Okay, but that's what I'm trying to understand. On

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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April 28th, you were first confronted with the package.

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And you're saying you were taken by surprise, and it

happened so long ago that you just said I don't know how it

got there, okay?

A. Correct, correct.

Q. But then you had three weeks almost to think about it when

Agent Rotti again confronted you with it, and you still lied,

right?

A. True -- no, no, no. The thing is I still did not remember

exactly what happened to that package because it took only

probably a minute to open, close it, put it back. So that

minute, among all this time 1996, I did not remember that

exactly what happened in that exact minute.

Q. Okay, here's my question.

A. All right.

Q. That happened on April 28th, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. That was the first time he showed you the package and

opened it, right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And you're saying that you were so surprised by it, you

didn't remember it, you were taken by surprise.

A. Correct.

Q. Now it's May 17th, okay? It's like 20 days later, and now

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

30

he's showing you the package again and it's opened and you've

had time to think about it now for 20 days, right?

A. Well, not exactly.

Q. Well, not exactly.

Okay. But then you told him you didn't read any

documents in there, absolutely not, right?

A. True.

Q. You weren't surprised then on May 17th, were you?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. Were you surprised by the fact that Agent Rotti showed you

this package and these documents on May 17th?

A. No, I was not.

Q. Okay. And then five days later, another agent comes from

Chicago, and you're not surprised then when he's asking you

about the package, are you?

A. No.

Q. And you tell that agent that you never opened the package

and you never read its contents.

A. Exactly.

Q. You weren't surprised when you told him that.

A. No.

Q. That was a calculated lie, right?

A. That was based on loss of a memory for one minute in

these -- all these years, sir.

Q. What -- what minute was it that you lost your memory?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

31

A. The minute that opening the package, looking at it, put it

back. I did not remember exactly what happened in that minute

ten years ago.

Q. Okay. But I think we're having a communication

difficulty.

A. Okay.

Q. I can understand on April 28th, the first time you're

confronted with that package and you see it, you could forget

it. It happened long ago, and you could be surprised by it.

But what I don't understand is why you're still

surprised on May 17th and still surprised on May 22nd. Do you

have an answer for that?

A. The same answer, sir.

Q. You're just surprised, surprised over and over again.

A. No, it's not surprise. Losing the memory for that one

minute.

Q. So you lost your memory three different times for one

minute each time.

A. Trying to remember exactly what happened, sir.

Q. And when you created this story about Mr. Hindi actually

coming to open the package, that was as a result of you losing

your memory, too?

A. Wrong, sir.

Q. What was that about?

A. That was the truth, sir, about it.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

32

Q. That's the truth?

A. Exactly.

Q. So that when you told Mr. Benevides on May 22nd that you

never opened the package and never reviewed its contents,

that's true?

A. What I'm saying, sir --

Q. Answer my question.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. When you told Agent Benavides that you never opened the

package and never reviewed its contents, is that true?

A. That's not true.

Q. Okay. So you lied to Agent Benavides, too, right?

A. I mean you can call it lie, but I call it loss of memory

for that one moment.

Q. So let me see if we're straight on terms.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. When you say something that's not true, you can refer to

it as a loss of memory.

A. No, no, sir. What I'm saying is one minute in those all

years, so that is a problem to remember that exactly one

minute what happened in that one minute.

Q. Sir, it's not one minute. It's three different occasions

separated by one 20 days and another five days. You had a

chance to reflect on it, didn't you?

A. Sir, you have a lot of things in your life to worry about

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

33

rather than one minute.

Q. All right. Here's what I want to find out. When you came

on to this witness stand and raised your hand and said you're

going to tell the truth --

A. Right.

Q. -- you told this jury that you had actually opened the

package and read some of the documents, right?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, I want to find out after May 22nd, when was the next

time you talked to an FBI agent, if you remember?

A. After May 22nd?

Q. Yeah, after you told Mr. Benavides that you never opened

the package and never read its contents, when's the next time

you talked to an FBI agent?

A. I think two weeks after that, sir.

Q. And that would have been sometime in June, June 6th?

A. Correct.

Q. And who did you speak to then?

A. I think Mike Rotti.

Q. Okay. And at that time did you tell Mr. Rotti, hey, I

lost my memory. I now have it back. I did open the package,

and I did review some of the contents?

A. No, that did not happen like this.

Q. Okay. When was the first time you told -- well, strike

that.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

34

After you met with Mr. Rotti in June of 2006, when

was the next time you met with anyone from the government?

A. After June?

Q. Yeah, after June 6th.

A. Maybe --

Q. I won't hold you to a specific date, but more or less.

How much -- how many days after June 6th?

A. Maybe a week.

Q. And was that Mr. Rotti, too?

A. One minute, please. I think so, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And did there come a time when Mr. Schar came down to

Atlanta and spoke to you?

A. The same time as the FBI, yes, sir.

Q. The same time as Mr. Benavides did.

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. So you were lying to Mr. Schar as well. But apparently

Mr. Schar at some point in order to put you on direct found

out some other story that you told because you told this jury

that you did open the package and review the documents, right?

A. That is --

Q. When did you first tell anybody from the government that

you opened the package and reviewed the documents?

A. It could be in the same -- within that same time.

Q. What time?

A. May, June.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

35

Q. Well, do you have a specific recollection of sitting in a

room with agents of the U.S. Government and telling them,

look, I lied on April 28th, I lied on May 17th, I lied on May

22nd, but now I'm going to tell you the truth.

A. Sir, I just said --

Q. Just answer my question. Do you have a specific

recollection?

A. No, I don't have a specific recollection, sir.

Q. Do you know when you finally told the truth?

A. Yeah, I kept --

Q. It wasn't just here in this courtroom for the first time,

was it?

MR. SCHAR: It's compound, there are multiple

questions.

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm sorry. Let me rephrase the

question.

THE COURT: Okay.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. You're not saying that the first time you told anyone from

the government that you reviewed those documents in that

envelope --

A. I'm sorry, I lost you for a second there. I was thinking

of another thing.

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

Q. What are you thinking of?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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A. I'm sorry.

Q. You'd rather not be here, is that what you're thinking of?

A. No, no, I was thinking of you, sir. Go ahead, what was

the question?

Q. My question is I'm trying to find out you testified --

strike that.

You testified in this court before this jury that you

opened that envelope.

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And looked at the -- and skimmed the papers inside, right?

A. Correct, correct.

Q. And I'm trying to find out when you first told somebody

that version of the facts?

A. That's what I'm saying, sir. I kept working it in my mind

until I knew what exactly happened.

Q. Okay. But my question is when did you finally recall

that?

A. That's a tough question when because I don't know exactly

when, but once I knew exactly what happened, I remember

exactly what happened, then I said what happened.

Q. Do you remember who was present when you finally said

that -- gave that version?

A. The agents, the FBI agents.

Q. Do you know if the agents were taking down notes when you

gave that version?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

37

A. I think they were taking notes. I'm not sure.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, we do not have any document that

reflects Mr. Shorbagi changing his story yet again, and so I'm

wondering about that.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, that is an inaccurate statement.

There's a motion in limine on discovery requests. I have it

right here. It's been provided to the defense.

THE COURT: Why don't you show that to Mr. Deutsch so

he sees what you're referring to.

(Tendered.)

MR. MOFFITT: Can I see it?

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah, apparently neither of us received

this.

THE COURT: If there's an issue for the Court,

Mr. Deutsch, let's take it at side bar.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay. Let's -- Judge, we do need a

side bar.

(Proceedings heard at side bar:)

THE COURT: Can I see?

MR. DEUTSCH: Yes, sure.

There's a lot of documents in this case, so I'm not

accusing anyone of -- but I've never seen this document, and I

don't know if Mr. Moffitt has seen it or not.

THE COURT: This is a one -- a 302, just for the

record, a page and a quarter from --

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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MR. DEUTSCH: 8-28.

THE COURT: -- 8-28, 2006.

MR. SCHAR: And Bates stamped, Judge --

THE COURT: Bates stamped --

MR. SCHAR: -- pursuant to the protective order that

you entered.

THE COURT: The Bates stamp is 03 CR 978 021484

through 85.

MR. DEUTSCH: I have never seen it. If Mr. Moffitt

doesn't have it, then there's a problem. If he has it, then

it's my --

MR. MOFFITT: I'm just checking, your Honor, but last

document I have, these were the documents that were sent to me

over the break because I had gotten a series of documents, as

you remember, that I could not read. The last one I have is

815.

THE COURT: Okay. I know a handful --

MR. SPIELFOGEL: Are you saying they were in the 3500

material?

MR. SCHAR: Not the original 3500 material because

this is a later dated --

THE COURT: A handful of things were turned over in

court yesterday, too, where there were redactions --

MR. SCHAR: There was a cover letter as well that

talked about everything, including all the Bates-stamped

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

39

numbers, so if there was some issue in them not getting it,

which I don't understand there to be, all they had to do was

ask.

My understanding it was the full Bates stamp that was

under the protective order, which is actually why we've

actually Bates stamped it ahead of time to cover the

protective order, was all turned over. If they need

additional copies, I have additional copies.

THE COURT: Even if you didn't get it, you have it

now, and it's short.

MR. DEUTSCH: Yes. I'm prepared to go forward.

THE COURT: Okay. You can go forward. If you feel

like you want to look at it and reopen your cross --

MR. MOFFITT: I'd like to look at it, but --

THE COURT: But if you want to reopen your cross for

any reason, you can do it, or you can ask Mr. Deutsch to ask

the question.

MR. MOFFITT: I'm sure Mr. Deutsch will handle it

well.

THE COURT: I'm sure he will.

MR. MOFFITT: I would just like to read it.

THE COURT: Okay. Just so you know, I'm going to go

until about 25 after 3:00. I have a conference call I have to

take at 3:30, so keep going until about 25 after.

(Proceedings heard in open court:)

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

40

THE COURT: You may continue when you're ready,

Mr. Deutsch.

MR. DEUTSCH: Thank you, Judge.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Mr. Schar was kind enough to give me a copy of the

document, and do you remember being interviewed by Mr. Rotti

in August 28th of 2006?

A. August 28th, 2006?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. That's after the plea agreement, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. And do you recall telling Mr. Rotti that you

received the envelope 11 years ago and you did not recall what

you glanced at and you were allowed to view the first page of

the enclosure and you still did not recall or remember

specifically reading the enclosed documents?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you testified here, and correct me if I'm wrong, that

you did, in fact, read some of the documents enclosed, right?

A. I did, sir.

Q. So this was yet another lapse of memory?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. So this is the fourth time you've told a different

story about this envelope, correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. When did you finally tell the story that you told

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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to this jury on direct-examination? When was the first time

you told -- you told that story?

A. Probably on that day, August 28th, when I said I flipped

through the pages. I remembered some of the things.

Q. Well, Agent Rotti wrote a report of his interview with you

on August 28th.

A. Okay.

Q. You want to look at it just --

A. No, I remember the interview. I remember it was after the

court date.

Q. And you told him then that you didn't recall reading any

of the enclosed documents.

A. No, no, no. Sir, what happened is I was reading the first

page, and then there is like 40 pages in there. In one

minute, I was reading like one word here, one word there, one

word there and got it back into the package. So that was the

loss of one minute there, sir.

Q. That was another lapse of your mind for one minute.

A. That was another time that I did not remember exact what

happened in that one moment, sir.

Q. And but when did you -- when did your memory come to the

point where you were able to now testify under oath that you

read the first couple of pages of the document?

A. That's what I'm saying, sir. I was able to retrieve my

memory into reading the first page, but even those pages I did

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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not remember on these pages just like a few words here and

there, sir.

Q. Well, you read to this jury, did you not, the cover letter

that was sent with the documents?

A. That's what I'm saying, the first page, the cover letter,

right, uh-huh.

Q. And you told Agent Rotti on August 28th that you -- you

had no memory of reading the enclosed document -- you do not

recall or remember specifically reading the enclosed

documents.

A. Yes, sir. I did not have any memory of what's the inside

the package there.

Q. Do you -- and you're saying that that very day, you then

remembered what you testified to here on direct-examination?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. Well, I'm trying to find out when your memory got to the

point where you remembered as you testified here on

direct-examination?

A. I really can't tell you when exactly, sir.

Q. Well, was it yesterday?

A. It sure wasn't yesterday.

Q. Well, I take it before you got on the witness stand, you

sat down with Mr. Schar, and he went over the questions that

he was going to ask you, right?

A. Correct.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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Q. And you did like a role play. He asked you the question,

and you'd give the answer, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And when was that?

A. It was I think back in September and two days ago.

Q. So you did it once in September. Was that in Atlanta?

A. No, it was here.

Q. You came up to Chicago and did it in his office?

A. Correct.

Q. And how long -- for how long did you spend doing that?

A. I think one day.

Q. Okay. How many hours did you spend?

A. Hmm, I would imagine probably maybe four, five hours.

Q. Okay. And do you recall whether was it that time you said

to Mr. Schar what you testified to on direct?

A. No, sir, it was before that.

Q. It was before that.

A. Correct, sir.

Q. So it was sometime after the August 28th interview with

Mr. Rotti and your September rehearsal with Mr. Schar?

A. As I said, sir, on September 28th, I recognized seeing the

first page. After that, I also recognized seeing some of the

names inside that package.

Q. You may have misspoke. You said September 28th.

A. I'm sorry, August 28th.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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Q. But did you say that all to Mr. Rotti on August 28th?

A. That's what I'm saying, sir. That's the statement right

there. That I remember -- I did not remember exactly the

content of the package because I went through it very quickly,

sir.

Q. But you testified here on direct that you now recall

reading the cover letter and some pages of the enclosed

documents, right?

A. I recall that before August the 28th, yes, sir.

Q. You recall that before August 28th.

A. That's what I'm saying, August 28th.

Q. On August 28th.

A. And it could be before that also. That's when I said the

statement on August 28th.

Q. But his report doesn't say that.

A. I'm saying myself, sir, not to Rotti.

Q. Oh, in your mind. You didn't tell him that, but you

realized that in your mind.

A. Yeah, after this question, I start -- keep thinking about

this thing, and then on 28th, the question came back. That's

what I said, sir.

Q. Did you actually go home and think about it, or were you

with Mr. Rotti when you realized it?

A. No, I was driving thinking about it, sir.

Q. Okay. Did you call up Mr. Rotti and tell him look, hey,

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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now I realize what the truth is?

A. No, I did not call him and tell him.

Q. When did you tell Mr. Rotti this?

A. That's what I'm saying, sir, when the question came back

on August 28th, I said that, sir.

Q. Sir, this is Mr. Rotti's 302 interview. Just read this to

yourself and see if this indicates that you told him that now

you remember reading the cover letter and other documents?

MR. SCHAR: Judge, he hasn't indicated he needs his

recollection refreshed. He shouldn't be impeached with

someone else's document.

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm not impeaching him. I'm just

trying to get him to --

MR. SCHAR: He's asking him to read Agent Rotti's

report.

THE COURT: I think he said read it to himself.

MR. DEUTSCH: Right.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. That's what I am saying, sir. The statement says that he

does not -- if you don't mind to keep it for me a second.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Read it to yourself.

A. I read it, but I want to explain that.

Q. Okay. But I'm going to take it from you. Then I'll ask

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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you about it.

A. Okay, good.

Q. All right. Did you tell him that now you recall -- on

August 28th, now you recall reading the cover letter and some

pages of the enclosed documents?

A. That's what I'm saying, sir. When I was thinking before

that, true.

Q. Did you tell him that?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. But it's not in his report, correct?

A. I don't see.

Q. Pardon?

A. On August 28th, I still was saying that I did not really

remember exactly what happened --

Q. Okay.

A. -- but --

Q. When? When did you remember? That's all I'm asking you

right now. When did you finally remember?

A. See, that's the question I'm trying even to remember when

did this happen, but I remember reading that cover letter,

sir.

Q. When did you first remember reading the cover letter?

A. As I'm saying, it could be sometime in July, sometime in

August, around those dates.

Q. Now, you mentioned that -- July and August, but then you

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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had an interview with Rotti at the end of August, and you

still were telling him you don't recall reading the documents.

A. That's what I'm saying, sir. I was still working on my

memory for that.

Q. Okay. When did your memory finally reach the point where

you could say under oath, hey, I read those documents?

A. That's what I'm saying. Starting sometime in August and

going back August 28th and so on, sir.

Q. You did say that you met with Mr. Schar in September for

five hours, is that right?

A. Yes, could be, uh-huh.

Q. And then you met with him again?

A. Yeah, two days ago, yes, sir.

Q. And for how many hours did you meet with him again?

A. Two days, what, Thursday -- probably two, three -- two,

three hours maybe.

Q. And in the September meeting you had with Mr. Schar, did

you tell him then that you read the cover letter and some

pages of the other documents?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And -- but you're saying -- did you tell anyone

prior to that, any government official, agent of the

government?

A. I don't recall, sir.

Q. Okay. Now, part of your plea bargain in this case is you

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

48

have to come in here and testify, right?

A. Part of the plea agreement, to --

Q. Testify in this case, right?

A. Not part of the plea agreement. Part of the agreement to

cooperate with the government, yes, sir.

Q. And the government, part of that cooperation is to come in

here and testify, right?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And it's been pointed out that your testimony has to be,

in the eyes of the government, truthful, right?

A. In the eyes of myself, sir, before the government.

Q. Well, but regardless of what you think about your

testimony, if the government thinks it's not truthful, then

they're not going to make a recommendation to the judge,

right?

A. Well, I don't know about that, but I'm talking about

myself, sir.

Q. Yeah, I'm asking you whether or not your understanding is

is that if the government doesn't think that you're testifying

truthfully, that they will not make a recommendation to the

judge as to your sentence.

A. It's up to the government. I'm saying up to me I have to

say the truth, sir.

Q. And did you know that the prosecutor from Georgia would be

sitting here in the front row judging your testimony?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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A. I don't know that.

Q. Well, do you feel like she's evaluating the truthfulness

of your testimony as you sit here?

A. I know my lawyer will, sir.

Q. Well, your lawyer doesn't make the recommendation to the

judge, does he?

A. The lawyer along with the prosecution will, sir.

Q. Now, you testified that one of the things that you agreed

to do was be on some kind of media committee after a MAYA

conference, right?

A. For Hamas, yes, sir.

Q. And one of the things that you'd do as part of the media

committee is to monitor the television as to information about

Hamas, correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. There's nothing illegal about that, right?

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I simply object to that in terms

of a legal conclusion.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, did you think you were doing anything illegal when

you were watching television and writing reports about what

was being said about Hamas?

A. Not watching TV, but making the report something else.

Q. The reports you thought were illegal.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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A. No, no, no, not making the report, but what is adding this

report with others for decision makers in Hamas.

Q. Now -- and as part of that legal committee work, you

testified that what people may have said, what Palestinians

may have said under detention in the occupied territories may

be of some interest to you.

A. I'm sorry, I don't really understand the question.

Q. Okay. I'll rephrase it.

The government asked you whether or not it was

important or relevant to your media work to know what

Palestinians might have said under detention and interrogation

in the occupied territories, correct?

A. No, I don't -- I don't really understand your question,

but my answer could be no, sir.

Q. Well, didn't you testify that there was a document that

you may have read or did read or skimmed or didn't skim that

had to do with a confession, alleged confession that Mr. Salah

gave to the Israelis?

A. Yeah, but that was not part of my job, sir.

Q. Okay. So it wasn't part of your job to follow what was

going on with people who were under interrogation in the

occupied territories.

A. No, I'm saying from that package, sir.

Q. From that package, but you did say that it was something

of interest to you what happened in the occupied territories

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

51

when people were arrested, right?

A. Well, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Q. And you know, in fact, that Shaba'k, Shin Bet

systematically tortures people to get confessions, don't you?

A. No, I don't know about that, sir.

Q. You didn't know about that? You never read anything about

that?

A. Yeah, I read about that, but I'm saying you're asking is

just like a fact did I ever, being into that or seeing that,

no, sir.

Q. Well, I know you never experienced it, right?

A. True, yes, sir.

Q. You were never arrested by the Israelis?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. But as part of your collecting information,

watching the TV, reading the newspapers, going on the

Internet, did you ever learn about the systematic use of

torture against Palestinians under interrogation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you knew they routinely have certain methods which

they coerced people to give information, right?

MR. SCHAR: At this point, just a foundation issue.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Well, where did you learn about the Israeli interrogation

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

52

methods?

A. In the web site, in newspapers and my family, friends.

Q. You had friends or family that experienced that

interrogation?

A. Relatives.

Q. Relatives. They were tortured by the Shin Bet?

A. Yes.

Q. And when was that, sir?

A. That was --

Q. Do you want a drink of water?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. I just asked if you wanted to take a break.

THE COURT: We're going to take one in about

15 minutes.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: If you need one, let me know.

THE WITNESS: Okay. No, that's okay.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Can you tell us when that was?

A. It was during the first Intifada.

Q. And was that sometime after 1987?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it in the early '90s?

A. Yes.

Q. And was it a relative of yours?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

53

A. Correct.

Q. And who -- what kind of relative was it?

MR. SCHAR: At this point, just object to the

relevance and foundation.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, I think it's relevant because

here's somebody that is allegedly part of this media group

that's collecting information, and the government wants to

make a big deal about how these statements were found, and I

think I'm entitled to show what his job is and what he knew

from it.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You can answer.

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, rephrase the question again,

sir.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Can you tell us what you learned from your relative, what

happened to your relative?

A. I mean I did not know specifics, but I know what they said

that they went under -- there was some torture to them.

Q. You don't know what the methods of the torture was?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was this a cousin of yours?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you were shown some pictures of Hamas people in your

direct testimony.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

54

A. Correct.

Q. And one of them was a man by the name of Shahada, right?

A. Salah Shahada, yes, uh-huh.

Q. And I think you -- when his picture was flashed, you said

he was killed by Sharon, right, isn't that what you said?

A. That was, of course, live from breaking news broadcast.

Sharon was the prime minister, but he issued the order to kill

Salah Shahada.

Q. And I think you told the FBI in the course of one of your

interviews that -- who is Sharon, by the way, or who --

A. He was the prime minister of Israel.

Q. And did you tell the FBI in one of your interviews that

Ariel Sharon, the prime minister, kills innocent people?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was that based on, sir?

A. Based on several occasions. I mean he was accused by the

-- not accused -- but found convicted by the Israeli

government itself -- what I'm saying during 1982, he was found

guilty of the massacres of Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon and

during also the time of killing Salah Shahada when they

dropped the bomb on the building that Shahada was there, there

were several -- women and children were killed in that certain

accident there.

Q. They dropped a two-ton bomb on an apartment building,

right?

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

55

A. Exactly.

Q. Now, you were also shown a picture of Yassin, the

spiritual head of Hamas, right?

A. Correct.

Q. He's in a wheelchair, right?

A. Yes, sir, he is in a wheelchair.

Q. And what happened to him, sir?

A. The same thing, they drop a bomb on him.

Q. And were you also shown a picture of Rantisi?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what happened to Mr. Rantisi, sir?

A. Same thing, they drop a bomb on the car he was riding.

Q. Sir, isn't it fair to say that the FBI came and arrested

you, confronted you with the fact that you had stole a quarter

of a million dollars from your employer, and you were in a bad

situation, right?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And they told you that you were looking at 20 years on

each one of those fraud, wire fraud or mail fraud counts.

They told you that, right?

A. Correct, uh-huh.

Q. And they told you if you could provide some information

about Dr. Ashqar and other people, that maybe that would help

your situation, right?

A. Wrong.

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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Q. Well, didn't you tell -- didn't you ask them specifically

if I testify against certain people, will you drop the charges

against me?

A. Wrong.

Q. You didn't say that to them?

A. No. I don't remember saying that.

Q. Are you saying you don't remember that you said that?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to -- I'm going to show him a

document and ask him if it refreshes his recollection.

MR. SCHAR: Which --

THE COURT: What document?

MR. SCHAR: The Bates.

MR. DEUTSCH: It's Agent Rotti and Reid's 5-15, 2006,

302 report.

BY MR. DEUTSCH:

Q. Why don't you just read this to yourself, this sentence.

Just that. Just starting there and ending where the blue

ends.

A. Okay. I read the statement.

Q. Okay. Does that refresh your recollection that you asked

the agents that if you did testify against certain people,

would they drop the charges against you?

A. No. That was during the course of interrogation.

Q. Yeah, you wanted -- you wanted them to drop the charges in

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

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return for giving them what they wanted, right?

A. No, sir.

Q. You testified just before that you can go back to Gaza

because Gaza somehow is not under Israeli control, right?

A. Correct, yes, uh-huh.

Q. The Israelis still come in and can arrest people in Gaza,

right?

A. For some areas, yes, sir.

Q. And they can then take them to an interrogation center and

interrogate them, right?

A. Correct.

Q. And they can put them on trial before a military tribunal,

right?

A. Correct.

Q. With soldiers as judges, right?

A. Correct.

MR. DEUTSCH: I have no further questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Schar, redirect?

MR. SCHAR: Judge, if we could have a few minutes --

THE COURT: You can have a moment, sure.

MR. SCHAR: -- just to determine whether or not there

is any redirect.

THE COURT: Okay. Let me know when you're ready.

(Pause.)

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I think this is going to take a

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Shorbagi - cross by Deutsch

58

little bit longer than I thought. Could we take a quick break

now?

THE COURT: It's going to end up being a little bit

longer. As I told you, I have a conference at 3:30 that's

going to take about 10, 15 minutes, but -- so we won't -- it

will be about a 25-minute break. If you need it, that's fine.

MR. SCHAR: I apologize. I think that would be best.

THE COURT: Okay. We're going to take a long

afternoon break.

(Recess from 3:20 to 4:00 p.m.)

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, just in terms of scheduling, I

have -- the next witness is Ms. Thompson's witness for us.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: I'm going to have to leave at 4:30.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: So I'm going to just walk out.

THE COURT: Okay. That's fine. Ms. Thompson will be

here.

MR. FERGUSON: The reason that he's raising it is

that the next witness I expect is going to be about ten to

15 minutes on direct. There will be a cross, and it may leave

us in the position of having to go to the next witness before

5:00, and we will only just be getting into his direct, which

is Steve Landes. I believe Mr. Deutsch has Mr. Landes, and

clearly we're going to have a substantial break when we've

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59

just started the direct.

So I think the preference --

THE COURT: Do you want to wait until Thursday?

MR. FERGUSON: -- is just to wait until we resume.

THE COURT: Fine. Are you done with this witness?

No, remember, we don't have Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

MR. DEUTSCH: Oh, yes.

THE COURT: Are you done with this witness?

MR. SCHAR: We are. I think he should probably come

back up and be excused.

THE COURT: We'll bring in the witness, bring in the

jury. When you're done with the next witness, let me know.

It's starting to snow, so I'm fine having everybody leave a

little early.

MR. SCHAR: We're going to play one phone call.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Jury enters courtroom.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

Mr. Schar, redirect?

MR. SCHAR: I am pleased to report we will not be --

there will not be any redirect for Mr. Shorbagi. We would ask

that he be excused if he could be.

THE COURT: Okay. You are excused, sir.

* * * * *

(End of excerpt.)

CERTIFICATE

Case 1:03-cr-00978 Document 1072 Filed 01/05/09 Page 59 of 60
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We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from

the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

__________________________

Joseph Rickhoff Date

Official Court Reporter

__________________________ __

Kathleen M. Fennell Date

Official Court Reporter

Case 1:03-cr-00978 Document 1072 Filed 01/05/09 Page 60 of 60