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1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

EASTERN DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Docket No. 03 CR 978

)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. )

)

MUHAMMAD HAMID KHALIL SALAH AND )

ABDELHALEEM HASAN ABDELRAZIQ ASHQAR, ) Chicago, Illinois

) November 29, 2006

Defendants. ) 4:15 o'clock p.m.

E X C E R P T

TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE THE HONORABLE AMY J. ST. EVE, AND A JURY

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff: HON. PATRICK J. FITZGERALD

United States Attorney

BY: MR. JOSEPH M. FERGUSON

MR. REID J. SCHAR

MS. CARRIE E. HAMILTON

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 500

Chicago, Illinois 60604

For Deft. Salah: PEOPLE'S LAW OFFICES

BY: MR. MICHAEL EDWARD DEUTSCH

MS. ERICA THOMPSON

MR. BENJAMIN ELSON

1180 North Milwaukee Avenue

Chicago, Illinois 60622

For Deft. Ashqar: MR. KEITH ALLAN SPIELFOGEL

20 North Clark Street, Suite 1200

Chicago, Illinois 60602

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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):

For Deft. Ashqar (Cont'd): MR. WILLIAM MOFFITT

11582 Greenwich Point Road

Reston, Virginia 20194

Also Present: S/A BRADLEY BENAVIDES, FBI

S/A JILL PETTORELLI, FBI

Court Reporter: KATHLEEN M. FENNELL, CSR, RMR, FCRR

Official Court Reporter

219 S. Dearborn St., Suite 2144A

Chicago, Illinois 60604

(312) 435-5569

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PROCEEDINGS RECORDED BY

MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY

TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED BY COMPUTER

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(Proceedings heard in open court; jury present:)

* * * * * *

MR. SCHAR: Judge, the government calls Mohamed

Al-Shorbagi.

THE COURT: Please come forward, sir. Raise your

right hand, sir.

(Witness sworn.)

THE COURT: You may be seated.

You may proceed.

MR. SCHAR: Thank you, Judge.

MOHAMED SHORBAGI, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, DULY SWORN,

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Sir, could you please state your name, spell both your

first name and your last name.

A. Yes. My name is Mohamed Shorbagi. My first name is

Mohamed, M-O-H-A-M-E-D. Last name is Shorbagi,

S-H-O-R-B-A-G-I.

Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to October 1997 to

about December 2001. During that time period, did you enter

into an agreement and understanding with others to provide

monetary support to the Hamas terrorist organization?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the time you provided money to Hamas, did you know that

Hamas was engaged in terrorist activities?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. Based on your involvement with providing money to Hamas,

were you criminally charged in federal court with providing

material support to a terrorist organization, namely, Hamas?

A. Correct.

Q. In addition, from approximately 2001 to 2005, you

defrauded your employer of approximately $240,000.

A. Correct.

Q. Direct your attention to August 28th of this year.

Did you plead guilty in federal court in Georgia to

providing material support to Hamas?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you enter into a plea agreement with the government

before you pled guilty?

A. Correct.

Q. In that plea agreement, did you agree to cooperate with

the government?

A. Correct.

Q. What, Mr. Shorbagi, did you agree to do?

A. To say the truth.

Q. Have you been sentenced yet?

A. Not yet.

Q. What is your understanding of the sentence you were facing

if you had not cooperated with the government?

A. 15 years.

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Q. In return for your cooperation, what do you understand the

government will do for you at the time of your sentencing?

A. To recommend reduction to the federal judge.

Q. Reduction in what?

A. Reduction of the jail time.

Q. Has the government indicated at this point how much of a

reduction it will request?

A. None.

Q. What do you have to do in order for the government to make

that motion for you to receive a reduced sentence?

A. To say the truth.

MR. MOFFITT: Objection. May we approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Proceedings heard at side bar:)

MR. MOFFITT: Your Honor, he's bolstering this

witness's testimony. Now he's got this witness saying that

what he's got to do is to say the truth, and that is

bolstering the testimony.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, in the 7

th Circuit at least, I

think the law is fairly clear that I'm allowed to front the

plea agreement and the terms of the plea agreement and what it

is he needs to do to abide by the terms of the plea agreement,

and that's all I'm doing.

THE COURT: The law is clear here in this circuit

that that is appropriate.

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MR. MOFFITT: Okay. You can front the plea

agreement, but he can't comment on his own testimony and say

that I'm telling the truth. That's the problem that I'm

having.

THE COURT: He's not bolstering his testimony. He's

asking him about what the terms of his deal are, and what the

witness just testified to is I have to tell the truth in order

to get a reduction in my sentence. That's appropriate.

You're free to ask him who makes that determination.

You're free to do the standard cross of it, but it's not

bolstering. It's appropriate.

(Proceedings heard in open court:)

THE COURT: You may continue.

MR. SCHAR: Thank you.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. What do you have to do in order for the government to make

a motion for a reduced sentence?

A. To say the truth.

Q. Who decides whether you are actually going to receive a

reduced sentence?

A. It's the federal judge.

Q. Where?

A. In Rome, Georgia.

Q. And has the government also agreed not to prosecute you

for your defrauding of your employer?

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A. Correct.

Q. In addition to possibly receiving a lower sentence, has

the government also agreed to assist you to reside legally in

the United States?

A. Correct.

Q. And, if necessary, has the government agreed to assist you

in entering the Witness Protection Program once you're

incarcerated?

A. Correct.

Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention now to the early

1990s. Where were you living at that time?

A. In Houston, Texas.

Q. What type of job did you have?

A. I worked for Maxwell Coffee Company, and then I worked for

a shipping company in Houston, Texas.

MS. THOMPSON: We're having a little trouble

understanding.

THE COURT: Maybe you can slow down just a little

bit, sir, so we can make sure we can all understand you.

MS. THOMPSON: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, fine. Sorry.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Also if you can keep your voice up, I think that would be

helpful as well.

A. Okay.

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Q. You said it -- was it Maxwell Coffee one of the places

that you worked?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you indicated you worked for a shipping company. How

long did you work for the shipping company?

A. I worked for about year and a half there.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. Logistics, shipping overseas.

Q. What did you do after you left that job?

A. I moved to Rome, Georgia.

Q. And did you get a job in Rome, Georgia?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What type of job?

A. It's the same thing, it's in shipping company.

Q. Are you familiar with an organization called the Muslim

Arab Youth Association?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Is that organization commonly referred to as MAYA,

M-A-Y-A?

A. Correct.

Q. While you were in Houston, were you involved in doing any

work for MAYA, the Muslim Arab Youth Association?

A. Correct.

Q. What did you do?

A. My job with MAYA really was logistics stuff. I was MAYA

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representatives in the state of Houston. I used to -- MAYA

used to bring guest speakers from overseas, scholars, very

known prominent speakers from Middle East. I used to go to

the airport or arrange for someone to pick them up from the

airport, and I used to take them to find accommodation for

them at hotel and also take them to the Islamic Center in

Houston for the Friday sermon, which is our day of prayer.

And during the nighttime, I would arrange for a

lecture for that speaker in the Islamic Center to speak about

certain subjects, and sometimes after the speaking -- after

the speech is over, there will be donate -- collection for

money.

Q. Were you involved in any other organizations while you

were in Houston?

A. Correct.

Q. What other organization?

A. I was also representatives for -- in Houston for IAP,

Islamic Association for Palestine.

Q. What did you do for the IAP, the Islamic Association for

Palestine?

A. Exactly the same thing for MAYA, because IAP, Islamic

Association for Palestine would have their speakers also.

They would call me. I will go to the airport, pick up the

speaker, do the same thing, arrange for Friday sermon, and

then Friday night, he will be speaking about the subject that

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he came for.

Q. Were you involved in providing any literature or handouts

on behalf of the IAP?

A. That is correct.

Q. What were you involved with?

A. Now, IAP was, I think, founded in sometime mid '80s, but

then when the very famous Palestinian uprising started in

1987, early 1988 in the occupied territory against Israeli

occupation, Hamas came to exist, and then leaflets by Hamas

was printed in the occupied territory, faxed to IAP office.

It was reprinted again by IAP and was mailed to my

attention to the Islamic Center. I would get it, make copies,

and make distribution for those leaflets.

Q. You say make distribution. What would you do with the

Hamas leaflets that you were provided?

A. I'm sorry?

Q. What would you do with the Hamas leaflets that you were

provided?

A. Make copies and distribute them to the people at the

Friday prayer.

Q. Do you have a recollection of any of the leaflets that you

personally distributed?

A. Yes. Most of those leaflets were really, as I said,

printed in West Bank and Gaza under the Israeli occupation.

Those leaflets would call for like sometimes for a general

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strike or for encouraging the Palestinians for throwing stones

at the occupation, at the soldiers.

And some other leaflets, starting in I think after a

year or two year of the uprising, taking responsibilities of

some of the actions that Hamas is doing in the occupied

territory.

Q. What particular actions?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

THE COURT: What's your objection?

MR. MOFFITT: Best evidence. If he's going to speak

about a writing, then we should have the writing.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, he's going to speak from his

memory as to what he distributed.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DEUTSCH: Judge, also we should have a better

foundation. He said several years after. I don't -- I want

to know --

THE COURT: Sustained. See if you can get a better

foundation.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Directing your attention to approximately 1989, do you

recall any particular leaflets that you distributed -- Hamas

leaflets you distributed on behalf of IAP in 1989?

A. Correct.

Q. Which leaflets?

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A. There was a famous leaflet that I made copies and

distributed. There was the abduction of the two Israeli

soldiers. One of them is I remember is Ilan Sa'doan. And

also I think in 1990, there was another leaflet of abduction

of Nissam Toledan, the Israeli soldier.

Q. Were you involved in any way with the distribution of the

Hamas charter through IAP?

A. Correct.

Q. How were you involved?

A. Hamas came to exist in '87 and then a few months after

that -- late '87. A few months after that, they had their

charter in February of '88. The same thing, IAP made the copy

of that charter and sent several copies to the mosque in

Houston, and I got those copies. They were in Arabic.

I got those copies of the charter, and I distributed

them to the people that come to the mosque.

Q. Did you eventually distribute it in English as well?

A. A few months later in '88, another copy came in English.

First came in Arabic, the second came in English. I did the

same thing to the non-Arabic speaking comes to the mosque.

Q. You provided the English version of the Hamas charter?

A. Correct.

Q. During the early 1990s, did you involve or did you attend

any conventions held by the Muslim Arab Youth Association,

MAYA?

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A. Correct.

Q. To the best of your recollection, where were those

conventions held? Focusing on the early 1990s.

A. I'm sorry?

Q. Focusing on the early 1990s.

A. They were mainly held in big cities. I remember Oklahoma

City. I remember Kansas City. I remember Phoenix, Arizona.

I remember Houston, Texas. I remember Chicago.

Q. Could you explain to the jurors what type of events

generally would go on at a MAYA convention?

First let me ask you about how many people would

attend a MAYA convention?

A. Usually between like 6,000 to 8,000.

Q. So a number of people would attend these conventions.

A. Correct.

Q. Could you explain now generally what would occur, how long

would the convention last and generally what would occur?

A. Usually the convention held or happened during the

Christmas time, two days before Christmas and a day or two

days after Christmas, so that's five days. And it's five days

and five nights.

The MAYA leadership used to rent big convention

center, two or three hotels in the city, and then we used to

go there, get a room, and spend the five days and nights in

the convention between the hotel and convention.

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The day starts with the mayor of the city. The

convention starts with the mayor of the city having the

opening ceremony of the convention welcoming the people to his

city, and then there will be two major lectures, one in the

morning and one in the evening.

And during this, there will be lunch and dinner by

the leadership of the convention arranged, and also there will

be small lectures during the daytime.

Q. Could you buy things at these conventions?

A. Yes, absolutely.

Q. Can you explain what you could buy?

A. There would be a big area in the convention that there

will be booths for, I mean, anything you really want to buy,

like clothes, especially for women, head scarf. Books,

religious books, politics books, tapes, Islamic signs, and

videotapes. Also tapes of the lectures that's being -- during

the convention or of the last conventions, videotapes, same

thing. Cassette tapes.

Q. Buy food as well?

A. Yes, there was also booth for food.

Q. During two of these early 1990 MAYA conventions, were you

invited to attend small, closed meetings of certain

individuals?

A. Correct.

Q. And which convention did the first closed meeting which

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you were invited to occur?

A. Oklahoma City.

Q. Where within the convention was the closed meeting held?

A. There was a room inside the convention center, a private

room inside the convention center.

Q. What did the room look like?

A. Probably the same size as this court here.

Q. What was in the room?

A. Staged like this and chairs for people to sit on.

Q. Let's talk specifically about the Oklahoma City closed

meeting.

Approximately how many people attended that meeting?

A. About 150.

Q. Excuse me?

A. About 150.

Q. 150.

A. 150, yes, sir.

Q. Who invited you, sir, to the closed meeting?

A. Close friend of mine in Houston, Jamil Dalu.

Q. First name J -- well, actually, J-A-M-I-L?

A. Correct.

Q. Last name D-A-L-U?

A. Correct.

Q. How did you know Jamil Dalu?

A. We went to the same school in Texas, and we were close

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friends in Houston, and we were working together also for the

IAP.

Q. When you say working together for the IAP, what were you

doing together?

A. Same thing, like doing the programs for the speakers when

they come, like what kind of program, how was the program

going to be and things of that nature.

Q. When Mr. Dalu invited you to the meeting, did he tell you

what was going to occur at the meeting or why you were being

invited?

A. He told me there will be a private speech.

MR. DEUTSCH: Objection, hearsay.

MR. SCHAR: It's offering to show why he ends up

going to the meeting, his understanding of what the meeting is

about.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, the answer you're

about to hear is not being offered for the truth of the

matter. It's instead being offered to show what actions were

taken.

You may answer.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I'm sorry, your question again, sir?

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. What did he tell you about the meeting?

A. That there will be a closed meeting by Mousa Abu Marzook,

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Hamas. They'll be speaking about Hamas from inside.

Q. You say from inside, what do you understand that to mean?

A. Means it's not going to be a public speech. It's going to

be a closed private speech about Hamas.

Q. And what was your understanding as to why you were invited

to this?

A. Because I was a supporter for Hamas.

Q. Did you go to the closed meeting in Oklahoma City?

A. I did.

Q. To the best of your recollection, who do you recall being

at that closed meeting in Oklahoma City where Mr. Marzook was

to speak?

A. I remember, of course, Jamil was there. I remember Ahmed

Yousef, Yasir Bushnaq, Ismail Barrasse. I remember Ziad

Hamdan. I remember Abdelhaleem Ashqar. That's --

Q. Do you remember whether Muhammad Muzein was present?

A. Muhammad Muzein, Shukri Al-Baker also.

Q. Now, prior to this meeting, had you ever met Abdelhaleem

Ashqar?

A. No.

Q. Did you meet him at this meeting?

A. After the meeting, I was introduced to him by my friend

Jamil Dalu.

Q. How were you introduced to Abdelhaleem Ashqar after the

meeting?

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A. I'm sorry, inside the meeting after the lecture was over,

inside the room.

Q. And how were you introduced to him?

A. "Hi, how are you. This is Mohamed Shorbagi. This is

Abdelhaleem Ashqar."

Q. Did Jamil Dalu tell you how he knew Abdelhaleem Ashqar?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection, hearsay.

MR. SCHAR: Co-conspirator, Judge.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Did Jamil Dalu tell you how he knew Abdelhaleem Ashqar?

A. He knew him because they went to the same school in West

Bank, Birzeit University.

Q. Birzeit, B-E-I-R-Z-E-I-T?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, at the closed meeting, did anybody speak or give a

lecture?

A. Correct.

Q. Who spoke?

A. Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. Had you heard of Mousa Marzook before this meeting?

A. Yeah, I heard about him.

Q. Who did you understand him to be?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection, foundation.

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BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. How had you heard of Mousa Abu Marzook prior to this

meeting?

A. I heard him -- I mean I'm a Palestinian. I came from that

area. And then Hamas was becoming very active in the occupied

territory, and the main associates to Hamas also becoming

known and known among the Palestinians. So his name was --

MR. MOFFITT: Objection, hearsay.

MR. SCHAR: It's being laid to give his particular

understanding of who this was. I'm not offering it for that

particular truth. It's a foundation.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Now, based on your information, who did you understand

Mr. Marzook to be?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: What's your response?

MR. SCHAR: I don't think his understanding is

hearsay, and I think he's laid the foundation to explain he

had some understanding prior to the meeting as to who was

going to be speaking.

MR. MOFFITT: His entire understanding of who

Mr. Marzook was is based on hearsay. There's no

co-conspirator statements there.

MR. SCHAR: That's a weight issue, Judge.

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THE COURT: Are you offering it for the truth?

MR. SCHAR: No, his understanding. It's his

understanding.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MOFFITT: Can I have an instruction that it's not

being offered for the truth?

THE COURT: Certainly.

The witness's answer as to his understanding of who

Mr. Marzook is is not being offered for the truth of that's

who he is.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Sir, who was your understanding who Mr. Marzook was at the

time of this closed meeting in Oklahoma City?

A. That time I mean I knew Mousa Abu Marzook was active in

the -- in the MAYA, MAYA conventions, and also within the IAP

structure and also with Hamas because, as I said, like as

Palestinians, most of the names they were associated with

Hamas were coming to known to us by like whenever we talk

about Palestine, Hamas and so on.

Q. During the closed meeting, did Mr. Marzook speak?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Can you tell us what he spoke about?

A. I mean I don't remember -- I remember what he talked about

Hamas, and the statement that I remember he mentioned that

Hamas is becoming a major player in the Middle East policy,

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and Hamas is going to start creating actions to affect the

Middle East policy.

Q. And when Mr. Marzook said Hamas was going to start

creating actions, what did you understand him to mean?

MR. MOFFITT: Objection.

MR. SCHAR: He was present, Judge.

THE COURT: Overruled.

BY THE WITNESS:

A. I'm sorry, your question?

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. My question, sir, is when Mr. Marzook says in this closed

meeting that Hamas is going to create action or actions, what

did you understand him to be referring to?

A. Hamas is a resistance movement against an occupation,

foreign occupation to Palestine. Actions mean fighting the

occupation, which is he clarify it by jihad against the

foreign occupation of Palestine.

Q. You say he clarified. Who clarified?

A. Mr. Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. What did he say?

A. Later on, he, by mentioning creating actions against the

Israeli occupation, that is the only way by dealing -- to deal

with -- to end the Israeli occupation of Palestine is by

jihad.

Q. And did you have an understanding of what jihad meant?

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A. I mean as a Muslim, there are too many names of jihad, but

when dealing with occupation, jihad means armed struggle to

end the occupation.

Q. About how long did Mr. Marzook speak for in the closed

meeting in Oklahoma City?

A. About an hour.

Q. What happened after he spoke?

A. There was an open session for questions and answers.

Q. Were you present for the question-and-answer session?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. As you sit here today, do you have any recollection of any

of the questions and answers?

A. There was a question about really the concern of the FBI

watching over us as Palestinians working for the Palestinian

cause using Hamas way in the United States by concern over the

FBI watching some of our activities.

Q. Was there an answer provided or a comment made about that

particular concern, that is, the FBI beginning to watch

Hamas's activities in the United States?

A. Yes, there was an answer by Abu Marzook.

Q. What did Mr. Marzook say at the Oklahoma City closed

meeting?

A. That was in early '90s, so his answer was that really the

FBI has so many things to worry about rather than activity

here or activity there for a Palestinian's cause that is

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thousands of miles away from the United States inside the

occupied territory, so they wouldn't have really a lot of

concern about the activities inside the United States, that

not to worry about the FBI.

Q. Now, did you attend a second MAYA convention where a

second closed meeting was held?

A. Correct.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, I'm sorry, how long do you want to

go tonight? Should I keep going?

THE COURT: Another five, ten minutes.

MR. SCHAR: Okay. See how far we get.

BY MR. SCHAR:

Q. Sir, did you attend another second closed meeting at a

second convention?

A. Correct.

Q. Where was that convention?

A. It was in Chicago.

Q. Do you recall approximately what year that was?

A. I think '94.

Q. And were you again invited to a closed meeting at the

Chicago MAYA convention?

A. Correct.

Q. Who invited you?

A. By my friend Jamil Dalu.

Q. Again, what did he tell you about this particular closed

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meeting, if anything?

A. He said the same thing, that there will be a speaker.

It's going to be about Hamas, and there will be a speaker

about Hamas.

Q. Where was the closed meeting held in Chicago?

A. Inside the convention center in a room, private room

inside the convention center.

Q. Similar to the room you described before?

A. Yes, similar to this room also.

Q. Did you attend the second closed meeting in Chicago?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who was present at the second closed Hamas meeting in

Chicago?

A. There were also about 150 or so there.

Q. Do you have a recollection as you sit here of any

particular people who were present?

A. Yes. I remember Mousa Abu Marzook, Ahmed Yousef, Ismail

Barrasse, Muhammad Muzein, Shukri Al-Baker, Abdelhaleem

Ashqar. I think those are some of the names I remember.

Q. Was Ziad Hamdan present?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. How about Mohammad Jarad?

A. Yes, Mohammad Jarad was there also.

Q. Now, was there a particular speaker at the second closed

Hamas meeting in Chicago?

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A. Yes, there was.

Q. Who spoke?

A. Khalid Mishal.

Q. Was he introduced as Khalid Mishal, or was he introduced

by another name?

A. He was introduced by Mousa Marzook as Khalid the Sheikh.

Q. And had you heard of Khalid Mishal before?

A. That was the first time I came in touch with Khalid

Mishal.

Q. What did Khalid Mishal speak about at this particular

closed Hamas meeting?

A. His speech was about Hamas, how Hamas became a big

organization inside the occupied territory and how Hamas

really is gaining the support inside the occupied territory.

And there is a peace process at this time, the Oslo agreement

that was signed in 1993 in Washington, D.C., and his two

topics -- he had really the thing I remember about two points

that he stressed and talked about, is that, number one is how

to stop the peace process because the PLO, who is doing the

peace process with Israel, is really selling out the

Palestinian rights by giving up the right of the Palestinian

land, most of the Palestinian land, giving up the right of the

return for the refugees who were forced to leave their homes

and lands in Palestine, and selling out the Palestinian

rights. So it will not be a good peace process for the

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Palestinians.

In order to do that, Hamas has to step up its

military actions, jihad, against the Israelis in order for the

Israelis to respond, and there will be violence on both sides,

so the peace process will not move on.

The second thing is that we, as Palestinians living

outside the territory, we've got to work on gaining the

support of the Palestinians outside Palestine for Hamas among

the Palestinians, Arabs as well as Muslims. So we need -- as

Hamas did its work inside the occupied territory, we need to

work hard outside Palestine in order to bring the support of

Hamas to -- from the people outside Palestine.

Q. Were those the two main points he spoke about during the

second closed Hamas meeting?

A. Correct.

Q. Did he speak in any way about how to organize support for

Hamas outside of the territories in Israel?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he say?

A. He said, like, for us really as Palestinians inside the

United States to work for Hamas, we need to have, like, groups

such as political group, media group, education group,

financial group, and every group is led by someone and some

people work for those groups to gain the support for Hamas.

Q. After -- after Mr. Mishal spoke, was there a

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question-and-answer session?

A. Yes.

Q. What, if anything, do you recall from the

question-and-answer session?

A. I recall a comment made by Abdelhaleem Ashqar.

Q. What was that comment? Was it in the form of a question

or an answer or a comment?

A. It was -- it was a comment.

Q. What was the comment?

A. The comment, I remember he was talking about how did

Israeli came to exist in 50 years. He was referring to the

founder of the Zionist movement, Theodore Herzl, that he had a

plan, he called it, Theodore Herzl called it the ten-year

plan, that in every ten year, he had a goal and this is how he

going to work for the goal.

And that was Theodore Herzl, the founder of the

Zionist movement back in 1897, and it came after 50 years in

1948, he fulfilled the establishment of the State of Israel

over the land of Palestine by following the ten-year plan.

Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Ashqar say about what Hamas

should do in that regard?

A. He said we could learn from -- from this plan really to

set a goal for us every ten years and -- or every few years

and to work toward the goal of ending the foreign occupation

of our land.

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Q. When you say us, who are you referring to?

A. As Hamas member -- supporters or members.

MR. SCHAR: Judge, this probably would be a good

time.

THE COURT: Okay. Let's end for the evening. We'll

pick up tomorrow morning. Please meet on the second floor at

9:15. Remember, do not discuss the case or watch, listen to,

or read any media coverage. Have a good night. I'll see you

tomorrow morning.

(Jury exits courtroom.)

THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Please be back

tomorrow morning by 9:00.

A couple of things for you. One, I spoke with the

juror, and it looks like next Thursday if we can end by 3:00,

that will accommodate her situation. Start on time and end by

3:00. I will -- is that acceptable to everybody?

MR. FERGUSON: That's fine, Judge.

MR. MOFFITT: That's fine.

THE COURT: Mr. Deutsch, any objection to that?

MR. DEUTSCH: That's fine.

THE COURT: And I will let the jury know that

tomorrow.

Also I have the notes of Agent Pettorelli. I have

not reviewed them yet, but I will review them tonight so we

can take it up tomorrow to the extent we need to.

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I also have the motion Mr. Moffitt handed me this

morning. I don't know if you've had a chance to look at it

yet or if you want to respond. I'm sure you'll want to

respond. The question is orally or in writing.

MR. SCHAR: I think we'd probably prefer to do it

orally.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. SCHAR: I think the -- part of the difficulty --

first of all, the issue, I think, isn't formed unless there's

some proffer that Dr. Ashqar was aware of this leak or alleged

leak, and somehow it influenced his decision or belief about

why he couldn't testify in the grand jury, which I don't see a

proffer of in that at all.

Otherwise, this leak and basically every other leak

that exists in the investigation in the United States falls

under the same premise of, well, see, the government is

investigating leaks and, therefore, I wouldn't testify. So I

think there's a lack of connection that would make any of this

relevant.

The other problem I foresee but would be happy to

deal with this ex parte is the government as a rule does not

comment on ongoing investigations, which this is. However,

the AUSA who's involved, I'm sure, could brief your Honor

because I'm not sure there are some accurate statements in

there about who actually is being investigated and who's not

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being investigated.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. SCHAR: Dealing with the kind of Giglio-Brady

issue.

THE COURT: I'll look at it further tonight and hear

from you tomorrow on it.

Also just a word to put you on notice, I'm going to

have to figure out where in the schedule to do this, I'm going

to need to hear, Mr. Deutsch, from you and the government and

have a hearing or further argument on the expert issues.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: There are some ones I'll be able to tell

you based on the submissions yes, some ones I'll be able to

tell you based on the submissions no, and then there's a murky

area that I need more from you on.

MR. DEUTSCH: Okay.

THE COURT: Also, there is -- there are discrepancies

between your original disclosures, what the government

represents you plan on doing with these experts, which I know

that's their representation, but more puzzling to me and is

adding to some of my confusion, your response to their motion

to strike.

So there are discrepancies between your initial

disclosure and your response, where I think your response, at

least on some of them, more accurately portrays what could be

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expert testimony than in your disclosure, and I'm not sure

which one you're seeking.

MR. DEUTSCH: Well, I don't know specifically what he

refered to, but I could tell you that once we started to

grapple with what the government was saying and what we needed

for our case, I think we clarified in our own minds what the

kind of testimony we're seeking.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DEUTSCH: So I'm not surprised there's some

differences between the original disclosure and what we put in

now, but what we put in now is what we intend to do.

THE COURT: Okay. So I'll rely more on what you have

disclosed in your response.

MR. DEUTSCH: Yeah.

THE COURT: And maybe Friday after court since we're

done early, we can take up some of these things. I'll give

you a more definite time tomorrow.

MR. DEUTSCH: This is that CJA matter about the

affirmation that you want because I'm going to submit a

voucher.

THE COURT: Okay, thank you.

Anything else for me?

MR. SCHAR: No, Judge.

THE COURT: Okay. 9:15 tomorrow.

(Court adjourned, to reconvene at 9:15 a.m. on 11-30-06.)

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CERTIFICATE

I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from

the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

Kathleen M. Fennell Date

Official Court Reporter

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