EXHIBIT 65 

FILED UNDER SEAL 

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-2 Filed 04/21/17 Page 1 of 10
ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3 SAN FRANCISCO DIVISION

4 _____________________________

5 WAYMO LLC, )

 )

6 Plaintiff, )

 )

7 vs. ) Case No.:

 ) 3:17-cv-00939-WHA

8 UBER TECHNOLOGIES, INC., )

OTTOMOTTO LLC; OTTO TRUCKING )

9 LLC, )

 )

10 Defendants. )

_____________________________)

11

12

13 ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

14 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ASHEEM LINAVAL

15 San Francisco, California

16 Thursday, April 13, 2017

17 Volume 1

18

19

20

21

22

23 Reported by:

RACHEL FERRIER, CSR No. 6948

24 Job No. 2594014

25 PAGES 1 - 92

Page 1

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Page 2

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3 SAN FRANCISCO DIVISION

4 _____________________________

5 WAYMO LLC, )

 )

6 Plaintiff, )

 )

7 vs. ) Case No.:

 ) 3:17-cv-00939-WHA

8 UBER TECHNOLOGIES, INC., )

OTTOMOTTO LLC; OTTO TRUCKING )

9 LLC, )

 )

10 Defendants. )

_____________________________)

11

12

13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ASHEEM LINAVAL,

14 VOLUME 1, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff, at Quinn

15 Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan, LLP, 50 California Street,

16 22nd Floor, San Francisco, California, beginning at

17 10:05 a.m. and ending at 12:34 p.m. on Thursday,

18 April 13, 2017, before RACHEL FERRIER, Certified

19 Shorthand Reporter No. 6948.

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 3

1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 For Plaintiff:

4

5 QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN LLP

6 BY: JORDAN JAFFE

7 DAVID PERLSON

8 Attorneys at Law

9 50 California Street, 22nd Floor

10 San Francisco, California 94111

11 415.875.6600

12 jordanjaffe@quinnemanuel.com

13 davidperlson@quinnemanuel.com

14

15 For Defendants:

16

17 MORRISON & FOERSTER, LLP

18 BY: WENDY RAY

19 Attorney at Law

20 707 Wilshire Boulevard

21 Los Angeles, California 90017-3543

22 213.892.5200

23 wray@mofo.com

24

25

Page 4

1 APPEARANCES (continued):

2

3 Also Present:

4

5 SHANA STANTON, Waymo

6 AARON BERGSTROM, Uber

7

8 Videographer:

9

10 CASSIA LEET

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5

1 INDEX

2 WITNESS EXAMINATION

3 ASHEEM LINAVAL

4 VOLUME 1

5

6 BY MR. JAFFE 7

7

8

9

10

11 EXHIBITS

12 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE

13 Exhibit 2 Milestones 44

14 Exhibit 3 Assembly Diagram 51

15 Exhibit 4 Declaration of Asheem Linaval

16 in Support of Defendants'

17 Opposition to Plaintiff Waymo

18 LLC's Motion for Preliminary

19 Injunction 64

20

21

22

23

24

25

2 (Pages 2 - 5)

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Page 30

1 Q And in the couple months prior, what kind of 10:52:57

2 ideas was he talking about? 10:52:59

3 A He didn't indicate to me the nature of the 10:53:00

4 business -- 10:53:04

5 Q Did you ask? 10:53:05

6 A -- or venture. 10:53:06

7 Not really. 10:53:13

8 Q You weren't interested in what kind of company he 10:53:17

9 was trying to recruit you to join? 10:53:20

10 A I -- I got the sense that he wasn't ready to talk 10:53:23

11 about it yet. 10:53:36

12 Q So you were just going to join some company doing 10:53:36

13 you have no idea what it was? Is that -- that was the 10:53:39

14 idea? 10:53:42

15 A I -- I hadn't committed to joining. 10:53:42

16 Q And you didn't press him to actually ask him what 10:53:45

17 the company would be? 10:53:50

18 A No. 10:53:51

19 Q Okay. When was the first time Mr. Levandowski 10:53:52

20 contacted you about joining what became 280 Systems? 10:53:57

21 A I only have an approximate recollection of the 10:54:02

22 time frame, and it was in the -- in a couple months 10:54:04

23 prior to January 2016. 10:54:08

24 Q So you can definitively say you guys were talking 10:54:09

25 about this company and then you joining sometime in 10:54:13

Page 31

1 2015, at least. 10:54:16

2 You would agree with that; right? 10:54:17

3 A Anthony had expressed interest in having me do 10:54:20

4 work for him in the last couple months of 2015. 10:54:25

5 Q And when did he reveal to you that it would be a 10:54:28

6 self-driving trucking company? 10:54:32

7 A In January of 2016. 10:54:33

8 Q What did you say? 10:54:37

9 A Would you clarify? 10:54:39

10 Q Sure. 10:54:46

11 When you found out -- when he finally revealed to 10:54:47

12 you, after months of talking about this unknown project, 10:54:49

13 that it would be a self-driving trucking company, what 10:54:51

14 was your reaction? 10:54:54

15 MS. RAY: Objection; form. 10:54:54

16 THE WITNESS: Generally positive. 10:54:55

17 BY MR. JAFFE: 10:55:13

18 Q Did you ever ask him about potential intellectual 10:55:14

19 property concerns with his work at Waymo or Google? 10:55:17

20 A I never asked him about -- I never asked him 10:55:21

21 about intellectual property concerns. 10:55:26

22 Q Did you ever have any -- personally, some 10:55:29

23 concerns about potentially using intellectual property 10:55:31

24 that is owned by Google or Waymo in this competing 10:55:34

25 project? 10:55:37

Page 32

1 MS. RAY: Objection; form. 10:55:39

2 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Would you repeat that. 10:55:40

3 BY MR. JAFFE: 10:55:44

4 Q Did you ever, personally, have any concerns about 10:55:44

5 potentially using intellectual property that is owned by 10:55:48

6 Google or Waymo in this competing project called 10:55:51

7 280 Systems? 10:55:54

8 MS. RAY: Same objection. 10:55:57

9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall being concerned 10:55:57

10 about running into IP issues regarding to -- regarding 10:56:12

11 IP from Google Waymo. 10:56:18

12 BY MR. JAFFE: 10:56:20

13 Q Ever? Before this lawsuit, clearly. 10:56:21

14 A It wasn't a concern, no. 10:56:26

15 Q Did Anthony ever tell you that he was going to 10:56:31

16 take material from Waymo or Google for use at 10:56:33

17 280 Systems or any other company that you are aware of 10:56:39

18 outside Google? 10:56:41

19 A Sorry. Would you repeat that? 10:56:43

20 Q Did Anthony ever tell you that he was going to 10:56:47

21 take material from Waymo or Google for use at 10:56:50

22 280 Systems or any other company that you are aware of 10:56:54

23 outside of Google? 10:56:56

24 A Anthony never -- never said anything about taking 10:56:57

25 IP from any other company to use at 280 Systems. 10:57:05

Page 33

1 Q Are you aware of Anthony -- Mr. Levandowski ever 10:57:08

2 taking documents or any other items, any sort of 10:57:13

3 proprietary information from Google or Waymo, for use in 10:57:19

4 any other company? 10:57:23

5 A I don't recall him taking any documents or items 10:57:25

6 for -- for use at 280 Systems. 10:57:29

7 Q Okay. Or any other company? 10:57:32

8 A Or -- or any other company. 10:57:33

9 Q Okay. You use Altium? 10:57:35

10 A I use Altium, correct. 10:57:43

11 Q What is Altium? 10:57:45

12 A Altium is a software computer-aided design 10:57:46

13 package for electronics design. 10:57:52

14 Q And you are an electronic engineer; right? 10:57:53

15 A I am -- I'm an electrical engineer. 10:57:56

16 Q Okay. Is Mr. Levandowski an electrical engineer? 10:58:01

17 A Not to my knowledge. 10:58:04

18 Q Have you ever seen him use Altium? 10:58:08

19 A I don't think I've ever seen him personally use 10:58:11

20 Altium before. 10:58:15

21 Q Okay. Have you ever talked to him about Altium? 10:58:15

22 A In the course of doing work for him, probably, 10:58:20

23 but I don't remember a specific instance. 10:58:22

24 Q You joined 280 Systems in January 2016; correct? 10:58:25

25 A That is correct. 10:58:38

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1 Q Between the time you joined 280 Systems and the 10:58:40

2 time that Uber acquired Otto, please tell me the names 10:58:44

3 of the LiDAR projects that you are aware of at Otto, 10:58:51

4 slash, 280 Systems? 10:58:55

5 A There was and Fuji. 10:58:56

6 Q What's ? 10:59:06

7 A was -- was a -- could you be more 10:59:14

8 specific about that? Like -- 10:59:29

9 Q You -- you mentioned 10:59:34

10 My question is: What is it? 10:59:36

11 A It is a LiDAR. 10:59:37

12 Q What kind of LiDAR is it? 10:59:40

13 A It is a LiDAR that we wanted to -- it was a 10:59:41

14 prototype LiDAR. 11:00:08

15 Q How many optical cavities were in the 11:00:09

16 LiDAR? 11:00:13

17 A I don't recall exactly. 11:00:22

 

21 Q How many lenses did it have? 11:00:28

22 A I don't -- I don't -- I don't clearly recall the 11:00:30

23 configuration of the optical cavity, but I believe -- 11:00:46

24 yeah, I don't specifically recall the configuration of 11:00:53

25 the optical cavity. 11:00:56

Page 35

1 Q Okay. So you can't tell me how many lenses the 11:00:58

2 LiDAR had? 11:01:01

3 A I could only tell you what I suspect it had. 11:01:02

4 Q Okay. So you mentioned and -- and 11:01:11

5 Fuji. 11:01:17

6 There were no other LiDAR designs at Otto; is 11:01:18

7 that correct? 11:01:21

8 A and Fuji were our only two internal LiDAR 11:01:21

9 designs. 11:01:26

10 Q Okay. When did Fuji start? 11:01:26

11 A I don't -- I don't know of an exact date for 11:01:28

12 that. 11:01:35

13 Q Who came up with the name Fuji? 11:01:35

14 A That was Anthony's choice. 11:01:43

15 Q So Anthony was involved in the Fuji project; 11:01:45

16 right? 11:01:51

17 A Anthony was involved in naming the project. 11:01:51

18 Q Was Anthony involved in the Fuji project? 11:01:54

19 A At a high-level, Anthony was -- you know, at sort 11:01:59

20 of a overview level, Anthony was involved with the Fuji 11:02:18

21 project. 11:02:21

22 Q What does that mean? 11:02:21

23 A That means, like, while -- while he wasn't -- 11:02:24

24 wasn't really involved with, you know, day-to-day 11:02:28

25 engineering, you know, as -- yeah, he had -- it means he 11:02:31

Page 36

1 wasn't involved with day-to-day engineering but still 11:02:43

2 had other involvement. 11:02:46

3 Q He had input into the Fuji design; correct? 11:02:47

4 A He had -- he had other involvement than 11:02:51

5 day-to-day design. 11:02:54

6 Q So, again, I'm not sure that answers my question. 11:02:55

7 "Yes" or "no," did Mr. Levandowski have design 11:02:59

8 input into the Fuji LiDAR design? 11:03:02

9 A He had input that excluded day-to-day 11:03:04

10 engineering. 11:03:18

11 Q What does that mean? 11:03:19

12 A There's a lot of minutiae involved with 11:03:20

13 engineering anything, and he would -- Anthony would -- 11:03:23

14 is not somebody that would have been responsible for 11:03:25

15 those day-to-day design details. 11:03:30

16 Q Are you aware of a policy excluding 11:03:32

17 Mr. Levandowski from having any input into certain LiDAR 11:03:35

18 decisions? 11:03:38

19 A I'm not aware of any such policy. 11:03:39

20 Q So there's no policy that you are aware of within 11:03:41

21 Uber or Otto that prohibits Mr. Levandowski's input into 11:03:45

22 its LiDAR designs; correct? 11:03:50

23 A I'm not aware of any such policy. 11:03:51

24 Q Okay. And from your -- your experience at the 11:03:54

25 company, he has input into the LiDAR designs; correct? 11:03:56

Page 37

1 MS. RAY: Objection; vague. 11:03:59

2 THE WITNESS: He -- he has input that generally 11:04:00

3 excludes minute and day-to-day design input. 11:04:07

4 BY MR. JAFFE: 11:04:17

5 Q So I'm a little bit confused by this phrase that 11:04:17

6 you are repeating. My question is -- is very specific. 11:04:20

7 In your experience at Uber and Otto, 11:04:24

8 Mr. Levandowski has input into the LiDAR designs, 11:04:27

9 including the Fuji project; true? 11:04:29

10 MS. RAY: Objection; form. 11:04:31

11 THE WITNESS: Well, I want to be clear about the 11:04:41

12 nature of his input into -- into -- into Fuji, which is, 11:04:42

13 his input takes place at a high-level and is not -- and 11:04:46

14 he's not involved with the nitty-gritty of designing the 11:04:50

15 laser. 11:04:55

16 BY MR. JAFFE: 11:05:03

17 Q So you are not willing to answer my question 11:05:03

18 "yes" -- actually, let me start over. Let me start 11:05:05

19 over. Is that all right? 11:05:08

20 We are going to do this again the way that we did 11:05:09

21 it before. 11:05:11

22 If I were to write in a paper and submit it to 11:05:11

23 the Court and say, "Mr. Levandowski has input into the 11:05:14

24 Fuji project LiDAR design," would that be false? 11:05:18

25 A That wouldn't capture as much detail as I 11:05:24

10 (Pages 34 - 37)

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1 Otto have when it was acquired by Uber? 11:24:57

2 A Otto had -- Otto had back then, but I 11:24:59

3 don't know -- I can't speak to whether that was supposed 11:25:10

4 to be a medium or a long-range laser. 11:25:12

5 Q Fuji didn't exist until October 2016; right? 11:25:20

6 A I don't remember the specific month. 11:25:23

7 Q You don't know when Fuji started; right? 11:25:29

8 A I don't recall a specific date. 11:25:31

9 Q So you can't tell me whether it was October 2016 11:25:34

10 or April 2016; fair? 11:25:35

11 A I know that it was later than April 2016. 11:25:38

12 Q Okay. So I'm going to narrow it down here so -- 11:25:41

13 A Yeah. 11:25:46

14 Q -- July? 11:25:48

15 A Are you asking about Fuji? 11:25:49

16 Q Correct. 11:25:52

17 A I would say that Fuji was -- was started late 11:25:54

18 2016. 11:26:10

19 Q Fuji was started late 2016. 11:26:10

20 When was the first prototype built? 11:26:15

21 A I don't know. 11:26:17

22 Q Where did the Fuji design come from? 11:26:17

23 A The Fuji design used aspects of the -- Fuji 11:26:21

24 design used aspects of -- aspects from the and 11:26:45

25 also in-house development. 11:26:51

Page 51

1 Q Are you aware of any design elements that are the 11:27:01

2 same between the Fuji project and the LiDAR projects you 11:27:07

3 worked on at Google? 11:27:12

4 A Could you clarify what you mean by "design 11:27:12

5 aspects"? 11:27:16

6 Q Number of lasers, orientation of diodes, those 11:27:17

7 sort of things. 11:27:26

8 MS. RAY: Objection; form. 11:27:26

9 THE WITNESS: Not specifically. 11:27:27

10 BY MR. JAFFE: 11:27:28

11 Q So your understanding is that there's no overlap 11:27:29

12 in the design between the Fuji project and any of the 11:27:32

13 LiDAR projects that you worked on at Google; true? 11:27:34

14 A I mean, there are certain aspects of a laser -- 11:27:38

15 of a LiDAR unit that are going to be the same across all 11:27:44

16 LiDAR units. 11:27:47

17 MR. JAFFE: Okay. I'm going to mark what's 11:27:50

18 Exhibit 3. 11:27:53

19 (Exhibit 3 was marked for identification 11:27:53

20 by the Court Reporter.) 11:27:55

21 BY MR. JAFFE: 11:27:55

22 Q And this is a document that's produced to us 11:27:55

23 as -- I realize it doesn't have a number on it, but my 11:27:58

24 understanding is the number is UBER_00000727_AEO. 11:28:02

25 MS. RAY: Let's mark this transcript as AEO, and 11:28:11

Page 52

1 then we will go through and designate certain portions. 11:28:14

2 BY MR. JAFFE: 11:28:22

3 Q Mr. Linaval, have you seen the document I've 11:28:22

4 marked as Exhibit 3? 11:28:25

5 A I've seen a document very much like this 11:28:26

6 document. 11:28:40

7 Q What is it? 11:28:40

8 A This is the -- this is an assembly diagram for a 11:28:41

9 laser transmitter board. 11:28:48

10 Q Where did the idea come from to do a laser 11:28:50

11 transmit board with this kind of 11:28:55

12 here shown? 11:28:58

13 A The is -- is -- is defined by what's called 11:28:58

14 a Petzval surface, which is, if, you know, you have a 11:29:12

15 lens and you shine light through it, it -- it -- the -- 11:29:16

16 the focal surface of -- of that lens is going to -- is 11:29:21

17 going to follow that 11:29:24

18 Q Have you ever seen another transmit board in a 11:29:25

19 similar shape to this one for LiDAR design? 11:29:30

20 A I've seen something sort of similar before. 11:29:32

21 Q When? 11:29:36

22 A When I was -- when I was -- when I was working on 11:29:37

23 11:29:49

24 Q What about ; 11:29:51

25 who came up with that idea? 11:29:55

Page 53

1 A Well, I'm sure it's been done before, but like, I 11:29:57

2 mean, for example, Velodyne's been doing it for, like, 11:30:04

3 you know, most of a decade now. 11:30:07

4 Q Velodyne puts multiple laser diodes on a single 11:30:09

5 PCB? Is that your understanding? 11:30:14

6 A Well, they have an arrangement of multiple 11:30:15

7 diodes. I don't know whether it's on a single PCB. 11:30:20

8 Q Have you ever looked inside a Velodyne LiDAR? 11:30:23

9 A Not with detail. 11:30:30

10 Q So you are not aware whether the laser diodes in 11:30:32

11 the Velodyne designs are on a single PCB or multiple 11:30:36

12 PCBs; is that fair? 11:30:42

13 A I may have misspoken. 11:30:43

14 Q So let me ask my question again, then. 11:30:45

15 Are you aware of whether the laser diodes in the 11:30:55

16 Velodyne designs are on a single PCB or multiple PCBs? 11:31:00

17 A I'm not aware. 11:31:05

18 Q Okay. Are you aware of any other designs that 11:31:07

19 have other than 11:31:08

20 and this design Fuji? 11:31:17

21 MS. RAY: Objection; form. 11:31:18

22 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any other specific 11:31:20

23 instances. 11:31:43

24 BY MR. JAFFE: 11:31:43

25 Q Referring to this design number, what I've marked 11:31:45

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1 as Exhibit 3, are you familiar with the placement of the 11:31:48

2 laser diodes on the transmit board? 11:31:51

3 A Sorry. Would you repeat that? 11:31:53

4 Q Referring to what we have marked as Exhibit 3, 11:32:00

5 this design, the Fuji design, are you familiar with the 11:32:03

6 placement of the laser diodes on the transmit board? 11:32:06

7 A I'm familiar with the -- the process generally 11:32:09

8 with which we decided where to place those decides. 11:32:12

9 Q Do the diodes 11:32:17

10 A I'm not sure. 11:32:21

11 Q Are you aware of any benefits or -- or lack of 11:32:22

12 benefits from either 11:32:24

13 11:32:29

14 A Okay. I'm going to correct myself. Actually, 11:32:31

15 we -- I believe 11:32:44

16 and one potential 11:32:50

17 would be the -- you might get whatever was used -- 11:32:55

18 whatever adhesive was used to attach the laser dye to 11:33:02

19 the board on the front of the diode. I -- my 11:33:07

20 understanding is it's -- is it's common practice to 11:33:12

21 11:33:16

22 Q Are you aware of any other LiDAR designs, other 11:33:17

23 than what we have described here in the Fuji design and 11:33:20

24 r 11:33:25

25 11:33:28

Page 55

1 A I haven't looked at any other -- any other LiDAR 11:33:30

2 in detail enough to see that. 11:33:34

3 Q So the answer is: Yes. You are not aware of any 11:33:35

4 other LiDAR designs, other than Fuji and 11:33:38

5 , that 11:33:41

6 like what's shown here on Exhibit 3? 11:33:47

7 A I haven't looked at any other lasers in enough 11:33:47

8 detail to see that. 11:33:49

9 Q Sir, that's not my question, and I understand 11:33:49

10 what you are saying. 11:33:51

11 But my question is: You are not aware of any 11:33:52

12 other LiDAR designs, other than the Fuji design here in 11:33:54

13 Exhibit 3 and , that 11:33:58

14 in this fashion; true? 11:34:01

15 MS. RAY: Objection; asked and answered. 11:34:03

16 THE WITNESS: No, and I haven't had the 11:34:04

17 opportunity to see that in any other laser. 11:34:15

18 BY MR. JAFFE: 11:34:19

19 Q Okay. The 11:34:19

20 who came up with that? 11:34:22

21 A The spacing was -- was a collaboration between 11:34:25

22 several people within -- within Otto and Uber. 11:34:29

23 Q Including Mr. Levandowski? 11:34:33

24 A I don't think he was -- I don't recall him being 11:34:36

25 involved with that. 11:34:39

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1 Q Who was involved? 11:34:40

2 A I know Scott Baumkey [phonetic] was involved with 11:34:41

3 that. 11:34:45

4 Q Who else? 11:34:45

5 A Gaton. 11:34:46

6 Q Anyone else? 11:34:47

7 A I'm not sure. 11:34:49

8 Q Okay. So Mr. Baumkey and Mr. Penticote 11:34:51

9 [phonetic] were involved in the design of the 11:34:55

10 shown here on Exhibit 3; right? 11:34:57

11 A They were both involved with that process. 11:34:59

12 Q Do you know who came up with the idea? 11:35:01

13 A I'm not aware. 11:35:03

14 Q Do you know whether Mr. Penticote came up with 11:35:04

15 the idea and communicated it to Mr. Baumkey, or vice 11:35:07

16 versa? 11:35:10

17 A The idea of ? 11:35:10

18 Q Yes. This . 11:35:12

19 A That specific 11:35:14

20 Q Correct. 11:35:16

21 A I'm not -- I don't know from whom that -- I'm 11:35:17

22 not -- I'm not sure who was responsible for deciding the 11:35:25

23 11:35:28

24 Q But you know that Mr. Penticote and Mr. Baumkey 11:35:28

25 came up with it; correct? 11:35:32

Page 57

1 A I know that they were involved in the process of 11:35:34

2 designing . 11:35:35

3 Q Who else was involved, to your -- to your 11:35:36

4 knowledge? 11:35:38

5 A I don't know. 11:35:40

6 Q Okay. Similar question to what I asked before: 11:35:42

7 Are you aware of any other design than 11:35:45

8 and this design here in Exhibit 3 that has 11:35:49

9 this 11:35:51

10 A I don't recall if 11:35:53

11 11:36:02

12 Q Are you aware whether it does or not? 11:36:05

13 A I'm not aware of 11:36:07

14 11:36:10

15 Q Do you have any understanding at all whether 11:36:11

16 11:36:15

17 11:36:19

18 A Sorry. Would you repeat the question? 11:36:19

19 Q Do you have any understanding at all whether 11:36:32

20 11:36:34

21 11:36:38

22 A With anybody else? 11:36:41

23 Q Let me say it again. 11:36:43

24 Do you have any understanding at all whether 11:36:47

25 11:36:49

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1 11:36:51

2 A I know that people at Uber and Otto were working 11:36:53

3 on I don't know whether 11:36:59

4 11:37:03

5 Q You have no understanding about that? 11:37:04

6 A I wasn't aware of 11:37:08

7 11:37:11

8 Q Okay. So, to your knowledge, no one else in the

9 world has 

10 other than what's shown here on Exhibit 3 in this

11 project Fuji; right?

12 MS. RAY: Objection; form.

13 THE WITNESS: I haven't really come across very

14 many LiDAR designs.

15 BY MR. JAFFE:

16 Q So yes?

17 A Would you repeat the question?

18 Q To your knowledge, no one else in the world has a

19 like what's shown in

20 here for the Fuji project on Exhibit 3, other than Uber;

21 right?

22 MS. RAY: Objection; form.

23 THE WITNESS: I don't know of any other designs

24 involving a in the world.

25 BY MR. JAFFE:

Page 59

1 Q Okay. Do you work with Gorilla Circuits?

2 A I haven't worked personally with Gorilla

3 Circuits.

4 Q Okay. Are you familiar -- turning back to

5 Exhibit 3 here, do you see the 

6

7 A Yes, I see those.

8 Q What are those?

9 A I believe those are 

10 Q What do those do?

11 A They are used at some point in the manufacturing

12 and/or assembly process.

13 Q Who came up with the idea to use 

14

15 A I don't know.

16 Q Are you aware of any other LiDAR designs that use

17 in the same way as described here in

18 the Fuji design?

19 A I'm not aware of any others.

20 Q So, to your knowledge, no one else in the world,

21 other than the Fuji project here in Exhibit 3, has 

22 in the same manner; right?

23 A Not that I'm aware of.

24 MS. RAY: Objection; form.

25 BY MR. JAFFE:

Page 60

1 Q Okay. The Fuji device has 

2 right?

3 A As designed currently, it utilizes 

4

5 Q And Uber labels right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q 

8

9 A That is correct.

10 Q Why does 

11 A My understanding is that's just a 

12

13 Q That's it?

14 A Yeah, and, I mean -- well, yeah, but you would

15 want them to have so.

16 Q Are you aware of any other LiDAR devices that

17 have other

18 than the Fuji design?

19 A No.

20 Q Okay. Do you think there's a benefit to that

21 arrangement?

22 A I believe that's why we designed it that way.

23 Q So yes?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Prior to Fuji, have you ever worked on a device

Page 61

1 that had 

2

3 A No.

4 Q Uber uses -- going back to the that

5 we talked about before, those -- do you know whether

6 those are used as a 

7

8 A I'm not sure.

9 Q How did -- actually, let me stop.

10 The -- are you aware of the receive board in the

11 Fuji design, how it's designed?

12 A Yes.

13 Q There's one receive board with 32 photodetectors

14 on it; right?

15 A That is correct.

16 Q How does Uber align the individual photo

17 detectors on the receive board with the diodes on the

18 transmit board?

19 A I'm not an optical engineer, and I'm not really

20 sure how to answer that.

21 Q So you don't know how those two get -- get

22 aligned?

23 A Not really.

24 Q Does the Fuji LiDAR work?

25 A What -- what do you mean by "work"?

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Page 62

1 Q I mean, can I turn it on and does it generate

2 information?

3 MS. RAY: Objection; form.

4 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about currently?

5 MR. JAFFE: Sure.

6 THE WITNESS: All right. Current- -- currently

7 a -- well, currently, there -- 

8

9

10 BY MR. JAFFE:

11 Q Have you ever put it on top of a car and tested

12 it?

13 A It's never been on top of a car.

14 Q The -- what we have marked as -- what I marked as

15 Exhibit 3, this is not a standard file from Altium;

16 right?

17 MS. RAY: Objection; form.

18 THE WITNESS: This is not -- well, this was

19 generated via Altium.

20 What do you mean by a "standard file"?

21 BY MR. JAFFE:

22 Q Like if I just turned on Altium and generated

23 dummy projects --

24 A This would not --

25 Q -- I would not get this file?

Page 63

1 A You would not get this file from a dummy project.

2 Q Right.

3 So this file is a specific file that you

4 generated; right?

5 A I don't know if I generated this file. It may

6 have been one of my colleagues.

7 Q Are you aware that Uber's counsel produced this

8 file to us from your computer?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Okay. You would agree, then, that all the files

11 that got produced from your computer are not standard

12 Altium or output files; right, because they included

13 this one here, Exhibit 3?

14 A Sorry. Would you repeat that?

15 Q Sure.

16 You would agree that some of the files that got

17 produced from your computer are not standard Altium

18 files; right?

19 A I would agree some of the files produced are not

20 standard files.

21 Q So there were some matches from your computer

22 that corresponded to things like Exhibit 3; right?

23 MS. RAY: Objection; form.

24 THE WITNESS: That -- sorry. Would you repeat

25 that?

Page 64

1 BY MR. JAFFE:

2 Q There was some matches from your computer that

3 were produced to us that corresponded to things like

4 Exhibit 3; right?

5 MS. RAY: Objection; calls for speculation.

6 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't believe so.

7 BY MR. JAFFE:

8 Q Well, Exhibit 3 was produced from us -- to us

9 from your counsel.

10 You understand that; right, or do you not

11 understand that?

12 A I'm not sure which subset of files was -- was

13 procured.

14 Q It's not accurate to say that all the files that

15 were produced to us from your computer by your counsel

16 were standard Altium files; right?

17 MS. RAY: Objection; form.

18 THE WITNESS: I don't know which subset of files

19 were procured from by --

20 MR. JAFFE: Let do this. Mark this as Exhibit 4.

21 (Exhibit 4 was marked for identification

22 by the Court Reporter.)

23 BY MR. JAFFE:

24 Q Sir, Exhibit 4 is the declaration you signed in

25 this matter; correct?

Page 65

1 A This appears to be my declaration.

2 Q Do you see paragraph 4 talks about you using

3 Altium?

4 A I see that.

5 Q And let's -- turning to paragraph 7, you say: I

6 understand that certain Altium, LTSpice and SolidWork

7 files from my computer were produced in this action

8 because they matched certain file names that Waymo has

9 provided for a search of Uber's files or they were MD5

10 hash matches for certain files Waymo identified.

11 Do you see that?

12 A Uh-huh.

13 Q What's the basis for that statement?

14 MS. RAY: Objection. I'm instructing him not to

15 answer on the basis of attorney-client privilege.

16 THE WITNESS: I'm going to follow my counsel's

17 advice.

18 BY MR. JAFFE:

19 Q Are you aware of what files were produced from

20 your Uber computer in this action?

21 MS. RAY: So you can tell him what you are aware

22 of, but not any other additional attorney-client

23 discussions.

24 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Would you repeat that.

25 MR. JAFFE: If you can just restate that.

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Page 66

1 (Record read by Reporter as follows:

2 "QUESTION: Are you aware of what files

3 were produced from your Uber computer in

4 this action?")

5 THE WITNESS: I'm aware of, generally, what

6 was -- what was produced.

7 BY MR. JAFFE:

8 Q What is the basis for that awareness?

9 MS. RAY: Objection. I instruct him not to

10 answer on the basis of attorney-client privilege.

11 MR. JAFFE: Counsel, we -- we disagree. This is

12 the source of his declaration. Are you claiming

13 privilege over the basis of his statements in his

14 declaration?

15 MS. RAY: Well, he's told you he's seen the

16 files. I'm not going to let you get into discussions

17 with him about anything further than that.

18 MR. JAFFE: I mean, he actually just testified to

19 the opposite of that.

20 Q What is your basis for your understanding --

21 MS. RAY: Wait. Can we -- hold on a second,

22 please. Wait. Can you hold on just a second. There's

23 no pending question.

24 He says: I'm generally aware of what was

25 produced.

Page 67

1 MR. JAFFE: And I'm asking what's the basis for

2 that statement.

3 MS. RAY: So I'm instructing him not to answer

4 because it goes into attorney-client-privileged

5 information.

6 I'll tell you, we made available --

7 MR. JAFFE: I don't want you --

8 MS. RAY: -- we made available to him the files.

9 MR. JAFFE: -- I don't want you to testify. I

10 want him to testify today.

11 MS. RAY: I'm not looking to testify. He's been

12 given an instruction not to answer.

13 BY MR. JAFFE:

14 Q Sir, have you seen the files produced from your

15 computer in this action?

16 A Would you mind if I -- if I took a break?

17 Q Sorry. This is -- this is a basic question I

18 need to get an answer from.

19 MS. RAY: So can I just clarify? It's because he

20 doesn't know what was -- there's certain -- I'm not

21 trying to game you here, but I think he doesn't

22 understand because he won't know the basis.

23 MR. JAFFE: I mean, I'm sorry, I understand, but

24 my question is very simple.

25 Q Have you seen -- I'll say it again because I

Page 68

1 don't want it to be --

2 Sir, have you seen the files produced from your

3 computer in this action, "yes" or "no"?

4 I don't think there's any privilege issue to talk

5 about here.

6 MS. RAY: Jordan, it might help if you and I just

7 step out of the room so you don't think I'm coaching him

8 and I'll explain to you what the issue is.

9 MR. JAFFE: Well --

10 MS. RAY: I think you would be okay with that.

11 Do you want to do that?

12 MR. JAFFE: I want to hear his answer to the

13 question, please.

14 MS. RAY: Okay.

15 THE WITNESS: Are -- are you asking if I've seen

16 it -- if I've seen a listing of the files that were

17 procured?

18 MR. JAFFE: No.

19 Q I'm going to repeat it again because I'm not

20 trying to change the question here.

21 Sir, have you seen the files produced from your

22 computer in this action, "yes" or "no"?

23 A What does the "action" refer to?

24 Q In this litigation.

25 A And by -- by seeing the files, do you mean that

Page 69

1 I've, like, looked -- looked at every single one and

2 looked at the contents thereof, or do you mean that I'm

3 just, like, aware of their existence?

4 Q I'm asking if you have seen them.

5 A What does it mean to "see them"?

6 Q Do you know not know what it is to see something?

7 A I -- I -- well, do you mean that I'm aware of --

8 that I've, like, seen them in a listing or that I've

9 seen the content of them?

10 Q Sir, you put in a declaration talking about these

11 files; right?

12 A Okay. But --

13 Q Have you seen them?

14 A I've not inspected the contents of every single

15 file. Some of them were very similar to others.

16 Q So let's be clear, then.

17 When you put in your declaration for the Court,

18 the Court shouldn't be under the misimpression you

19 actually looked at the files that you were talking

20 about; right?

21 MS. RAY: Objection; form.

22 THE WITNESS: I've looked at the file listing.

23 I've looked at the file listing enough to be able to --

24 to understand generally what I was looking at.

25 BY MR. JAFFE:

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