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JIFSAN SYMPOSIUM 

ASBESTOS IN TALC 

BREAKOUT SESSION A 

TEST METHODS FOR ANALYSIS OF TALC AND MINERAL 

FIBERS IN COSMETICS 

Conducted by Frank Ehrenfeld and Robyn Ray 

1:30 p.m. 

7777 Baltimore Avenue 

College Park, MD 20740 

(202) 857-3376 

Reported by: KeVon Congo 

Capital Reporting Company 

1250 Eye Street, NW, Suite 350 

Washington, D.C. 20005 

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S 

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4 Robyn Ray 

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P R O C E E D I N G S 

FRANK EHRENFELD: So let's see if we can -- we 

put together a little something here to keep the 

discussion going. But before I do, I thought it was 

appropriate that we could at least talk about a couple 

items that we covered this morning before I get going. 

However, I wanted to introduce ourselves up here. 

I'm Frank Ehrenfeld. For those who do not know 

me, I'm the chair of ASTM D2207 in my spare time and 

then a laboratory director at International Asbestos 

Testing Labs in New Jersey. 

To my left, a partner here for today, Robyn 

Ray; and Robyn is the special projects manager for 

asbestos for EMSL nationally, and she's doing a great 

job. 

Robyn and I put this together to help our 

discussion today. At some point I hope to be directing 

traffic, meaning I hope I see multiple hands in the air 

so we can have some participation. But again, I want to 

start with a little bit -- a couple points that I heard 

this morning, and I thought it was interesting to 

perhaps reiterate. 

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Greg Meeker said, "Is it possible to protect 

public health without regulating everything?" So we 

have to keep that in the back of our mind as we go 

through the rest of the sessions this afternoon. 

Also, in a side discussion with an anonymous 

source here today, who was wearing a hat last time I 

saw him in the hallway, Martin Harper indicated that 

the geologist used to own -- yeah -- geologist used to 

own the definition of asbestos. He says, "Now it has 

been turned over to the legal community." 

In Greg Meeker's talk, he also had that --

just those few short words that also put things in 

perspective. "What does your lung know?" So what do 

your lungs know I think is an important concept to keep 

things into perspective. 

I think I have one other that -- just one. 

Yeah. One other here that both Ann Wylie implied --come 

on in, Julie, we saved you a seat -- that Ann Wylie 

implied and that Martin Harper and others also mentioned 

today that maybe perhaps, not in this same sense, and 

that is that the original definition of asbestos, when 

it was being put together past 1975, had 

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to do with the mineral that we analysts -- that was 

intentionally formulated into the bulk building 

materials but that anything contaminated by materials or 

from a natural occurrence of asbestos maybe needs 

another definition---- that would help, perhaps, 

segregate employees, populations, and perhaps more 

problems that we are finding. 

The last thing was a more practical concern, 

and that is in ASTM D2207, we have a terminology guild. 

That's D7712. And Steve Compton, are you in the room 

here today? Steve, yes. The problem children are 

having -- here in front, Martin. That's why you're 

there. (Audience laughs.) But it's easier than that. 

Steve will tell you that maintaining that document over 

the years has been -- it's taken a lot of your time. 

It is a difficult complication on his part. Same thing 

with the subcommittee. We will be sending around to 

the ASTM roster a survey -- three surveys over the next 

nine months to determine what definitions may stay or 

go or are popular or not popular or need to be revised, 

amended, or deleted. 

The problem is, in these terminology 

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1 documents, we have multiple definitions for fiber, 

2 multiple definitions for asbestos, etc.; and this has, 

3 obviously, creating problems over the years as these 

4 were created, sometimes without knowledge of another 

5 subcommittee's work going forward. So I wanted to get 

6 that out there and I thought that would be a good place 

7 to start. 

8 I think the ground rules for this short 

9 session today are, again, to think about the terms we 

10 have up here: talc, obviously; cosmetic talc; and then 

11 mineral fibers. Notice that our charge today does not 

12 use the word "asbestos" here. It uses "mineral 

13 fibers." And again, the objective that we got from 

14 JIFSAN was to establish concurrence on an analytical 

15 protocol for mineral fibers in cosmetics containing 

16 talc. 

17 And this is where we want to know about the 

18 audience, so show of hands here. How many of you 

19 consider yourself geologists? Okay. Very good. How 

20 many of you are primarily lab analysts? Okay. How many 

21 that are related almost exclusively to the medical 

22 epidemiological, toxicological, biological side of 

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things? Show of hands. Okay. Good. How many of you 

are regulators, not work for a government agency but 

actually have a role in regulating something? Are you 

FDA? Okay. 

So, obviously, the really cool kids here are 

the lab analysts, so -- but, no. We have a good 

population now of geologists, some people involved in 

the medical and biological side and regulators who want 

to hear what we have to say. We do this because we 

know that you'll be using those filters to help answer 

questions and move this along, and that's certainly 

what JIFSAN wants to know as well so --

You got all that down? 

ROBYN RAY: Got it. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. Thank you. 

Here's some other things to consider. Some of 

these items were actually mentioned this morning, so in 

general, you know, we have prep and homogenization as 

very important steps to consider in any analytical 

method that Micky proposed. 

How many here have prepped a cosmetic talc 

sample? Okay. We got it. And there's a number of 

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1 ways you can try to segregate the waxes and binders and 

2 everything that are present from the minerals that 

3 you're trying to detect. We've identified a few 

4 errors, as far as waxes and binders. Consequently, many 

5 times there's gravimetric reduction. There's ash and 

6 there's something you can remove that properly. 

7 Identification of the minerals can be 

8 problematic, and we talked about that earlier; and 

9 we'll have a few examples, I'm sure, from you today 

10 about some of those problems using the various 

11 techniques and technologies that we have introduced, 

12 again, this morning that we will read this in here and 

13 another slide or two. 

14 We talk about mineral habit as well, and again, 

15 many times it's not necessarily something that you run 

16 into on a practical basis. 

17 When Ann was looking at some of those 

18 tremolite structures from that baby powder she found in 

19 her bathroom closet, it's -- as an analyst, when you're 

20 not Ann Wylie analyzing it, when you're somebody who's 

21 had a year or two of training and is looking at this 

22 stuff -- hey, let me sniff it. You've only had a year 

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or two with training with a light microscope. Please 

don't look at this stuff, right? But if you were, you 

need to have some sort of guidelines as to what's 

countable, what's not countable, regardless of its 

geological formation and habit or the definition of 

asbestos. 

Where's the cosmetic you've used? And Julie 

nailed this one here. Is it going to be for -- is it

going to be something regarding lip stick or is it going 

to be a powder that will tend to be more 

airborne? Do we look at these minerals and these 

products and do the methods change based upon the 

matrix that we're looking at? And as mentioned a 

couple of times earlier today, there is a lack of good 

reference standards. We can certainly find certain 

minerals, but where do we find certain minerals with 

the same binders and waxes and other items that might 

be in cosmetics, unless we actually go to the producers 

and ask them to share their formula. 

So we threw other up here as well in case 

somebody had some sort of magical analytical technique 

that we're all missing, and again, whether that is 

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1 using the Brookhaven National Lab's Synchrotron or 

2 something; but I don't think there is a magic answer, 

3 and I think what we heard this morning, what we've 

4 heard from you as pain over the years and from the 

5 group at ASTM that is formulating these analytical 

6 amounts as well is that the -- having a suite of 

7 methods -- s-u-i-t-e -- would be certainly beneficial. 

8 There is good information. Marty expressed this as 

9 well. There's good information that we see when we're 

10 looking at a bulk material under a stereomicroscope on 

11 as a monolayer of particles on a slide with a light 

12 microscope with a experienced microscopist; and then 

13 additional information that can be gleaned by SEM, by 

14 EDS and certainly by TEM. XRD, there being the 

15 nonmicroscope technique where you're not actually able 

16 to see if it's even fibrous but at least you have the 

17 basic crystal structure and the chemistry. So all that 

18 was discussed this morning. We're going to circle back 

19 certainly to this. 

20 Prep options. We mentioned gravimetric 

21 reduction. To what extent where you use a wet 

22 analytical prep method or a dry method. If it's a 

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raw material, certainly sieving to do some segregation 

by size. Milling -- but careful because we have all 

heard what milling does, and you certainly don't want to 

produce fibers, and you don't want to have to make sure 

there's material to interfere with you being able to 

detect that. Density separation, not only using methods 

such as Eric Chatfield's ISO, some of the elements of 

his method for ISO but even some of the heavy liquid 

separation for such things as vermiculite and sprayed on 

insulation. So there's a number of different analytical 

approaches to prep. 

Solvent separation. Addison-Davis, I've heard 

mentioned, again, a few times this morning, where you 

are dissolving the other asbestos and other minerals to 

see if any of that contaminant asbestos might be in the 

property. Using the fluidized bed segregator that Ed, 

I think, is going to be selling for Christmas --

(audience laughs) -- that can also be used to help 

separate some of these minerals and at least, 

potentially, collect them and take them away. 

And then data recording. Here the analytical 

method what’s going to be important. We heard an awful 

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lot about morphology today. Session B, we're going to 

be talking about the measurement criteria and 

identifying and fiber counting; but morphology is 

certainly key. 

And yet you also heard from Ann, "Don't talk 

to me about aspect ratio. That's -- may not be 

important." Okay? And yet the morphology we heard over 

and over again this morning, is important. Until you get 

back to what Greg's slide was: "Does your lung care if 

it's prismatic or some sort of fragment?" And then 

interpretation of: "What are we going to do with all 

that data? How are we going to deliver that data in an 

analytical method?" 

Oh, RJ Lee is here today. 

ROBYN RAY: Matt [Sanchez]'s right here. Matt. 

Is Matt -- is he going to have a weight 

percent? You going to do a volume-type of quantitative 

approach? Is this analytical method going to be 

utilized while manufacturing professionals, people 

doing the exposure work, regulators? Is it going to be 

involved into the risk side of things or limitation? 

Currently you can use some tried-and-true 

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light microscopy methods and the TEM gravimetric 

reduction methods that are out on the APA600. And if 

it's in there, and if you know what you're doing, you 

can find it. I think that's our last slide. 

So with that, I wanted to sort of open it up 

and say: Where should we go and what are some of the 

other elements? And if you need me to, I'll go back to 

a certain slide if it means that it helps with the 

conversation. 

So we had our hands up earlier for how many of 

us were lab rats and had experience with microscopy or 

XRD. I see one XRD expert here. Anybody else who's an 

XRD person? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: Besides me? 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. Well, I'm looking at 

Gary, Julie, and Allen and Sean. They've all had 

experience, and yes, I have an XRD in my laboratory. I 

turn to Dr. Rozinski (ph) and say, 

"Go get me that data because I" --

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: I can do that. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. I mean, for me, back 

in the day, I remember putting film on the inside of my 

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1 XRD. 

2 AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: You're sure? 

3 FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I 

4 think these students and the people who are looking at 

5 that data now absolutely have -- they can't believe it. 

6 They were still in the dark at one point. 

7 Martin? 

8 MARTIN RUTSTEIN: Just an observation. When 

9 this thing with talc and cosmetics came up, my wife, 

10 Sean, said Sephora was holding them for women last 

11 year. I started --

12 FRANK EHRENFELD: She has a way out. 

13 MARTIN RUTSTEIN: It's a great place to hang 

14 out with. 

15 FRANK EHRENFELD: Have you got any --

16 MARTIN RUTSTEIN: I'm starting to go there and 

17 read the labels on what's in these containers. You've 

18 heard that one, mineral powder. There's no minerals in 

19 it. Everything under the sun. It's there, at least, 

20 is your starting point from all the -- I'll call it the 

21 "smart lid," sure. 

22 FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. Speaking of reading 

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1 the labels, a large litigation case was avoided years 

2 ago when a floor tile manufacture wanted some new 

3 product tested and indeed there was tremolite detected; 

4 and I didn't say tremolite asbestos, but it was 

5 tremolite. However, there was a small portion of the 

6 population of tremolite -- it was in these brand-new 

7 floor tiles that was asbestiform tremolite asbestos. 

8 A few laboratories -- in fact, Dr. Chatfield 

9 and I shared a presentation to Johnson two Johnson's 

10 ago, I think, on this. And after his fibrosity study 

11 he didn't -- was able to show that indeed about 0.1 

12 percent of the overall material was asbestos tremolite. 

13 The flooring company said, "Oh, we'll take those back. 

14 We're going to give you another lot worth of floor 

15 tiles. The school was good to go. Everything's fine. 

16 But interestingly enough, only MSDS, shoot, from the 

17 manufacturer that, I guess, had the mineral come in, the 

18 dolomite. In the dolomite they listed, "Contains 1 

19 percent tremolite." They were about spot on with that. 

20 There was -- a fraction of it was asbestos tremolite. 

21 So back to technologies and methods, does 

22 anybody have the answers so we can just cut this short 

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and go to the bar? (Audience laughs.) 

GREGORY MEEKER: No. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: No. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Can you go back to the 

slide on preparation? 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Absolutely. And this may 

not have all the factors in prep but it's at least 

some. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: So you know, presumably 

we're here because there's health effects associated 

with this; and as a toxicologist, what is important to 

me is that the -- what we're looking at is as close as 

possible to the exposure material that causes the 

disease. In other words, is the pathway the same? Is 

the realm of exposure the same? Is the point of 

contact similar? Anything you do to a sample that 

moves it away from that dose -- the actual dose that 

causes the disease, moves you further from what you 

really want to know, and so -- and we saw that. I 

think Martin -- Martin's not here -- but this morning, 

for example, he showed that the little -- I forget 

what he called them -- little --

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1 FRANK EHRENFELD: Adherences. 

2 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: -- little adherences to 

3 the --

4 FRANK EHRENFELD: The "Jimmies." The 

5 Jimmies on the long lost case. 

6 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Right. 

7 AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: What do you call them? 

8 FRANK EHRENFELD: Jimmies. 

9 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Jimmies. 

10 FRANK EHRENFELD: Jimmies. 

11 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: It's a --

12 AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: More than one jimmies. 

13 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: That's a technical --

14 FRANK EHRENFELD: That's a geological term. 

15 (Audience laughs.) 

16 (Crosstalk) 

17 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: But it's that sort of 

18 thing that if you disturb that -- you know, if you use 

19 a technique that disturbs the sample in any way --

20 breaks fibers, it disperses bundles in a way that 

21 wouldn't happen biologically, if it causes Jimmies on 

22 the surface that you don't know anything about or its 

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effect -- then you really are moving away from what you 

want to know. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: So two things. In an 

analytical lab, we want to follow a SOP or a method so 

that we can say we followed this; and so in purposing 

one, or for those methods that are already in 

development, to amend or revise and make sure we have 

them right. Are you saying -- because I want to get 

this right because Robyn's taking notes feverishly there 

-- don't do anything in prep that's going to alter the

potential fiber content? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3 : A fiber characteristic is 

what I -- and that might --

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: -- include content. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: So fiber characteristic --

so don't mill it. Maybe don't do something else to 

create fibers. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: And you know -- to, you 

know, to clarify. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: My perspective as a 

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toxicologist again, I understand there might be reasons 

that you want to know, you know. You might want to know 

weight, you might want to know bulk. But in terms of 

what you want to know for disease characterization, the 

least amount of disturbance to that sample is critical; 

and, in order to address that, in some situations, we've 

turned to what's called exposure-based monitoring, where 

you actually pick the sample up from the breathing zone. 

NIOSH has done this for decades and decades. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: An activity base? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: Activity-based monitoring. 

If you need a way to simulate that, the fluidized bed, 

which Martin, I think, also mentioned this morning --is 

a, you know, a close rendition of that for solid- phase 

sampling. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: I see a few show of hands. 

Let's keep moving with that, but I would submit that in 

its purchased form, lipstick is not going to cooperate 

but, certainly, powder would. Steve (ph)? 

STEVE: That's exactly what I was going to 

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ask, is how do you feel about some kind of an 

application so that we're collecting an air sample as 

opposed analyzing the bulk product. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: See, I think you're -- you 

-- again, there are situations where you want to 

analyze the bulk and you don't really care what the 

disturbance to the sample is because you want to know 

the weight or whatever; but I -- it's hard for me, as a 

toxicologist, to think of a way that you couldn't 

simulate the exposure. If you fix this lipstick you're 

concerned about, you want to collect that sample off 

the lips of someone who used that sample. (Audience 

laughs.) 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: Is this a personal -- is 

this a personal reflection? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: It happens. It happens. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. We have a number of 

hands up. I want to keep moving. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 5: I've done a number of 

contact samples, and so much of what you get has --

unless it's a straight-up talcum powder, which often 

isn't, has a lot of other materials in there that you 

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1 will not be able to analyze that sample unless you do 

2 something to get rid of those. I've seen where it's up 

3 to 90 percent of the materials, and there's waxes, 

4 there's cellulose, there's coloring in there. So --

5 and then the process of getting rid of that is going to 

6 grab microproduction. You're gonna burn the sample. 

7 Other times we can alter some sonication involved with 

8 it to try to free it up. That's going to change the 

9 nature of the fibers, but the task of the lab is often, 

10 "Tell me what's in there and how much of it is in 

11 there."So we have a different concern than you do, 

12 but there's often not a way for us to determine what's 

13 in there without altering the sample. 

14 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: I get that. I get that. 

15 And don't --

16 AUDIENCE MEMBER 5: Separation --

17 (Crosstalk) 

18 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Let me just quickly 

19 respond to that. 

20 FRANK EHRENFELD: Very aggressive. 

21 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Let me just quickly --

22 FRANK EHRENFELD: Follow up to that and we're 

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done. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: -- respond to that. It's 

common in my world that the matrix for the poison is 

always a problem. It's always different. I mean, if 

you're looking at pure product, this is going on 

glyphosate, which is a big problem right now. We look 

at -- if you go to the hardware store and we get 15 

different formulations of glyphosate, they're all 

different and they all have different toxicities. 

That's the only point I'm trying to make. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Yep. Okay. Gary. 

GARY: Well, you just bring up a good point. 

So you're on -- let's say you're out on a cosmetic --

I'd say in a wax matrix. So the process, the 

formulation, the people that made that are making --

they have a process; and they're saying that, to the 

best of their knowledge, that product is uniformly wax 

coated. So it's actually almost like encapsulating even 

the potential problem that you're talking about. So you 

would always look at the material as is. That's the way 

I approach everything. I don't care if I got rocks, 

whatever. I do studies, I look at it 

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incrementally. That's the way I educated myself on what 

-- how to do things during sample preparation. If you 

remember the original Crayola problem, 2000-2001, they 

did a study. What did they do? They sat there and they 

got a Crayon and they went like this, and guess what? 

They found nothing. Why? It's in it. It's in a matrix 

that will not release it. Even though you would burn it 

off, ground measure it, reduction, 

(inaudible), quote, transition structures, whatever, it 

never was going to be released. And I thought, so it is 

product specific here with some cases, so you have to 

use common sense in how we approach things. Now, if you 

go back, it's the provider of the raw material of the 

talc --

FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. Go ahead and finish 

that up. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Okay. I didn't know if 

Sean had a problem, but --

FRANK EHRENFELD: No. No. No. Sean does 

have a problem. 

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AUDIENCE MEMBER 5: It's not my usual problem. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: All right. 

(Crosstalk) 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: So there it's on -- you 

know, it's the producer's problem up front to do the 

analytical characterizations prior to the end use 

consumer product, okay? And I understand what you're 

saying. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: God's given me about three or 

four other hands up, Greg. I'll get to you in a second. 

We'll do Sean next, but maybe we can also say this: 

Perhaps the exposure side of this is another issue and 

the detection, the technologies, the techniques, the 

prep, the homogenization that might have to be used to 

do what you're charged to do how much is in there -- 

right? -- and what is it may have to be a separate type 

of technique, but well noted. 

Okay. Sean. 

SEAN: Well, that's a good segway. The 

problems with your segway: We've got a product, and 

why do we suspect that there might be asbestos in the 

first place? Because it had talc in it, all right? In 

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1 testing, like you said, Andreas, thousands of cosmetics 

2 that's made in a laboratory. Because of their recent 

3 issues, do we see it when mica is the number one 

4 ingredient? Rarely, if ever. Do we see it when talc is 

5 not listed as an ingredient in those cosmetic? Rarely, 

6 if ever. The issue is asbestos in the talc, and we know 

7 that that's plausible. 

8 So we did testing by burning a piece of those 

9 Crayola Crayons back in the day, and we found the talc 

10 was from RT Vanderbilt and it did have anthophyllite and 

11 tremolite in the Crayons, so it's in there. Now the 

12 question Chris was asking is answered by the test that 

13 you're alluding to, where you took a Crayon, rubbed it 

14 all over you, took air samples, found out if regular use 

15 is really going to be suffice. Well, that's -- I think 

16 what we need to do every time we deal with asbestos in 

17 cosmetics, just like we did with asbestos in crayons. 

18 First thing we need to establish is whether or not there 

19 are releasable --potentially releasable, countable,

20 asbestos structures in product. So the first thing you 

21 got to do is get rid of anything that might be 

22 interfering. So there 

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FRANK EHRENFELD: I got it. So then you go do 

the Karate Kid method -- wax on, wax off. 

SEAN: Wax off. Only wax. 

Okay. Robert. 

ROBERT: Well, I just wanted to say I was 

involved with the OSHA regulations concerning cleavage 

fragments, and when you read what came out in the 

federal registry, OSHA said you should actually use a 

mineral science to define what fibers are. In whatever 

the lung sees, it has nothing to do with whether or not 

-- what the mineralogical identification of the fibers 

are. If the cleavage fragments were carcinogenic, they 

would be in a cleavage fragment standard. You don't 

make cleavage fragment asbestos because they cause 

mesothelioma. We're not going to make erionite asbestos 

because it causes mesothelioma. 

In this question, miles continues to persist 

in this area but OSHA clearly did not want to regulate 

cleavage fragments as asbestos. They didn't say they 

were safe, but they didn't want them to meet asbestos 

standards. So I finally see the biological properties 

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are separate from the mineral properties. This is a 

cleavage fragment. It's a minerological definition, and 

then there's the biological definition of the health 

effects. Because the cleavage fragments, they tried 

really to kind of convince you they were the same as 

asbestos. So they were going to do it by analogy. They 

didn't have the respirable analytical data or you do the 

data that shows response to the (inaudible). 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: Which outcome are we 

trying to protect from? Is it cancerous side or the 

noncancerous side? 

ROBERT: Well, you're obviously trying to 

protect from both, but you should use mineral science 

to define what the minerals are. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 7: Yes. So if you're gonna -

- if there's like a court case or something, when you 

go to court, the first thing you're going to have to 

establish is what is in the starting material and it 

has to be reproducible and verifiable. So then when 

you -- the next step is on the exposure, which is what 

you're talking about. That opens like endless areas of 

argument between multiple sides. Well, how -- does 

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that really simulate the exposure? You know, so the 

starting point is you have to have a bulk analysis and 

then you have to move on to the exposure. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: And I think that is the --

what we are charged to help have some sort of consensus 

here today. 

Greg. 

GREGORY MEEKER: Two comments. What if the 

kid eats the crayon? (Audience laughs.) And then on 

the cleavage fragment issue, once it's identified as a 

cleavage fragment, it's ignored by a lot of people. 

And --

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Once it's identified as a 

cleavage fragments, it's ignored by a lot of people. 

GREGORY MEEKER: Once someone says, "This is a 

population of cleavage fragments," then everyone 

assumes, oh, it's not a problem. We don't have to 

worry about it. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Right. Which, again, Greg 

gets back to, hey, what does my method or SOP say? If 

I'm a bench analyst, am I counting it, not counting it, 

bending it? Do I count everything? But, yeah, I 

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1 agree with you. A lot of that stuff's probably 

2 ignored. 

3 I have one down here, then I'll get the back. 

4 Greg, anything else to finish up that thought? 

5 GREGORY MEEKER: Well, no. (Audience laughs.) 

6 FRANK EHRENFELD: That gets us back to the 

7 quote that I had from you earlier, which is: "To what 

8 extent do we have to -- can we protect the public 

9 health without regulating everything?" 

10 GREGORY MEEKER: I mean, if it's long and 

11 thin, it's probably going to behave the same way. I'm 

12 sorry. If it's the same size, same shape, it doesn't 

13 matter what you call it. 

14 FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. 

15 GREGORY MEEKER: No one has shown that, that I 

16 know of. 

17 AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Lee, I want to the back 

18 just to the different analytical methods and kind of 

19 coming up with this industry is a "TEM snob." "TEM's 

20 the best." I've come to realize -- the example I told 

21 over lunch, where I'm looking at Nytal, and I -- if I'm 

22 friends with anthophyllite, you're having a hard time 

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1 finding asbestiform tremolite, but then you run it by 

2 XRD, which everyone agrees it's got horrible 

3 sensitivities; it's worthless; you can't use it; and it 

4 tells you that it's about 55-60 percent tremolite, 

5 which I never saw unless I'd run it by XRD. The point 

6 I'm getting at is all these tools -- you know, PLM 

7 gives you a population. It helps you to find the 

8 population of asbestos that's in that material. 

9 Electron microscopy will show you a completely 

10 different population of fibers that's possibly in or not 

11 in that material as does XRD; and even the prep methods, 

12 you know, there's a big push right now with the heavy 

13 liquid separation which would -- talc works well for, 

14 say, iron-rich species -- tremolite or cummingtonite. 

15 It will -- it's effective for that, but you'll never 

16 find an anthophyllite that doesn't have iron in it. 

17 You're not going to find chrysotile using heavy liquid 

18 separation, so you have to go back to the EPA 600 or 

19 behind a tree to have any hopes of finding this. So I 

20 guess -- that's the only point I'm making is there's not 

21 a simple -- a lot of people say, well, you know, 

22 asbestos is just one thing. Which method is 

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1 the best? And really, depending on the -- with 

2 something like talc, it takes every tool we have in the 

3 tool box to even get close. 

4 FRANK EHRENFELD: So can I reiterate that to 

5 say that all these tools can be used, they each have 

6 advantages, disadvantages, and it's gonna have to be 

7 matrix specific as well? 

8 AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: I would -- to get to the 

9 right answer, all of those -- all the tools available 

10 to us need to be utilized, including things like, 

11 potentially, gravimetric reduction. 

12 FRANK EHRENFELD: And unlike analyzing for 

13 asbestos in a ceiling tile or a floor tile, this is not 

14 going to be some 5-dollar light microscopy method. And 

15 so those that will be providing these services have to 

16 somehow differentiate themselves from those who are 

17 doing this routinely on building materials I imagine. 

18 That then gets us back to where are the reference 

19 materials. 

20 Yes, sir. 

21 AUDIENCE MEMBER 8: Well, I was saying that. 

22 You just said what I was going to say. I mean, as a 

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1 retired analytical chemist and toxicologist, the thing 

2 that scares me to death is Martin's talk where he says 

3 there's not very many standards even left out there. 

4 Some of them are buried out in South Africa somewhere; 

5 and you know, without standards, we can't qualify the 

6 methods we're using that drives the narrative, that 

7 takes the court action, that -- it won't stand up. So 

8 where are we going with this? 

9 FRANK EHRENFELD: Well, this is where it gets 

10 back to either FDA or JIFSAN or somebody to say -- or 

11 USP to say, okay, manufacturers of cosmetics formulate 

12 these or get us RTI; and say, hey, RTI, we're going to 

13 provide you with a five-gallon pail of our base 

14 material; and if you could spike or blend in fractured 

15 Lone Pine tremolite at a certain percentage -- because 

16 we need to have some studies done as far as what's the 

17 recovery of certain methods based upon the size of 

18 fibers and a multitude of other variables on the 

19 analytical side. 

20 AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Right. 

21 AUDIENCE MEMBER 9: A couple questions that 

22 are -- it's more of a question to the analysts. First 

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1 of all, what is the definition of cosmetic talc? And 

2 what type of products -- I mean, baby powder, lipstick. 

3 But what kind of products are we talking about? 

4 FRANK EHRENFELD: Sean? Gary? 

5 SEAN: Yeah. Those two should answer that 

6 question --

7 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. Yeah. 

8 SEAN: -- as far as what defines cosmetic, 

9 yeah. 

10 GARY: Physical, chemical, mineralogical. 

11 SEAN: It doesn't matter. 

12 FRANK EHRENFELD: Well, I mean --

13 SEAN: Question: How do we -- give us your 

14 definition because I have doubts. 

15 FRANK EHRENFELD: A certain purity but what is 

16 that based on? 

17 GARY: Well, there's -- they're all --

18 AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: They're in their new 

19 standards, probably the USP Standard is the one that we 

20 use most of the time. To turn in the quality, it's 

21 typically a certain pure --

22 GARY: It's also particle size to the cosmetic 

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1 --

2 STEVE: Physical. 

3 GARY: I believe it's about 90 percent or 

4 greater talc -- the mineral talc. 

5 That's two 

6 

7 hundred mesh or less, particle size. 

8 FRANK EHRENFELD: Platy talc? 

9 GARY: And they do allow certain other 

10 constituents like chlorite in talc but not above a 

11 certain limit. 

12 AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: I can give you the 

13 definition if you want it as a reference. 

14 AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: Yeah, I do. 

15 AUDIENCE MEMBER 10: CTFA did issue several 

16 years ago, a definition of what cosmetic talc is. 

17 

18 AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: Yeah. 

19 AUDIENCE MEMBER 10: I don't know whether 

20 that's changed over time, but --

21 AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: And it's not --

22 (Crosstalk) 

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AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: It doesn't -- it has 

nothing to say that it has to be 99 percent. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: If I can have your 

attention, please. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: CTFA or the USP monograph, 

if you look at the attributes, there's many attributes. 

You look at it. You're ranging between 82 to 85 

percent or better talc. The rest can be chlorite, 

carbonates, and other accessory minerals. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: Yep. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: CTFA is a little higher 

standard, probably more like 90 percent -- 92 percent, 

but it has nothing to do with you have got to have 

99.99 percent talc to be cosmetic or pharmaceutical. 

STEVE: Okay. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: There's physical 

attributes that have to be met as well --

STEVE: Right. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: -- which are even more 

important in some respects because of its properties 

are used in an end-use consumer. 

BRAD: And platy --

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FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. Hold on. One at a 

time. Brad, does that answer your question or at least 

part of it? 

BRAD: Not quite. Platy -- because if it were 

fibrous, it wouldn't -- or could it still qualify? 

BRAD: Yeah. Playtiness, obviously gives it -

- the word is liden (ph), you know --

STEVE: Lubricity . 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 7: It wouldn't get very high 

quality talc --

BRAD: Yeah. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 7: -- if it was in what 

you're talking about. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: That's what I thought. 

And then what cosmetics does it end up in? 

GARY: There's a lot. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: A lot? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: Industrial probably has a 

(Crosstalk) 

GARY: A lot of different types. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: -- because of -- I 

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have fibrous talc. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: So I'm also conscious of the 

time that we have right now. We're trying to make sure 

that we cover multiple aspects. Okay. 

So thank you for your volunteering just for 

the group here. You get a receipt on the wait out. 

(Audience laughs.) Robyn's gonna have a question for

Catherine. 

ROBYN RAY: Yeah, just for clarification for 

the purposes of this discussion. Do you want the 

definition of the official USP Standard for talc? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: From USP? 

ROBYN RAY: Yeah. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Sure? 

ROBYN RAY: Okay. I can get you that. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: Okay. 

STEVE: That's the CTFA definition for 

cosmetic talc. The department --

FRANK EHRENFELD: It's probably very close to 

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that but --

GARY: Yep. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: As we know in this industry, 

every word --

ROBYN RAY: Oh, believe me, USP --

FRANK EHRENFELD: -- every comma counts. 

ROBYN RAY: -- every word counts. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Absolutely. 

Martin? 

MARTIN RUTSTEIN: Gary mentioned a few minutes 

ago other dangerous things in this product, in 

cosmetics? I Googled it. I got five hits on 10 to 12 

dangerous things that cause -- things you should be 

aware of, bla, bla, bla. Only one of them in Australia 

mentioned talcum powder. They say the evidence was 

very weak. 

The others are witches brew of organics and 

inorganic compounds, especially the oleander, that are 

problematical. So I suggest if you go looking at 

cosmetics, you're not going to look at the list of the 

stuff that they put in there. Woman have to be crazy 

to put this stuff on -- people have to be crazy --

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1 ROBYN RAY: Not crazy. 

2 MARTIN RUTSTEIN: Look how quick her --

3 (Audience laughs.) 

4 MARTIN RUTSTEIN: I'm not shaming you. 

5 Please. 

6 ROBYN RAY: Uh-huh. 

7 MARTIN RUTSTEIN: This stuff is really a 

8 witches brew. 

9 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. 

10 AUDIENCE MEMBER 9: I think he was looking at 

11 this. 

12 

13 FRANK EHRENFELD: Yes. 

14 MARTIN RUTSTEIN: Well, I'm working on it. 

15 FRANK EHRENFELD: So I would like to turn our 

16 attention now to a couple other things, again, because 

17 of the time. And that is the analytical technique 

18 and/or technologies that would be used. We've heard 

19 about some of the prep and some of the pluses and 

20 minuses, how it could be used, how it could be limited, 

21 how it can be aggressive, or how maybe it shouldn't be 

22 that aggressive if we want to preserve what might be in 

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that product. 

Let's talk about the technology. We saw some 

PLM micrographs up here today. We saw SEM, XRD Spectra; 

of course, TEM. 

Pluses and minuses, hey, use them all. By the 

way, if you're going to use them all, have a disclaimer 

saying you didn't find anything with, you know, 

technique one, in order to confirm you need to also use 

technique two and three. Any thoughts from the group 

here today about the technologies and techniques? 

GARY: Now, we heard a lot of this earlier 

about the advantages and disadvantages. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Right. 

GARY: And I -- I guess I go back to what Dr. 

Wylie was saying, her talk about, you know, the ability 

of an experienced person by PLM, to pick up, evaluate a 

sample that way. Being a TEM guy, you know, I would 

also look at it by TEM, but I would not do one without 

the other. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Right. I agree. You can 

miss stuff with TEM. Martin said that, you know, you 

might have structures that are far greater than not 

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1 only just a field of view but multiple grid openings 

2 sometimes. 

3 Also, if you knew that it might contain 

4 asbestos, I don't think anybody would say, "I looked at 

5 it by light microscopy. I'm done." 

6 The other thing that Ann also indicated was, 

7 if you want to get a good reading on the width of those 

8 potential fiber structures, you have to use TEM. 

9 

10 GREGORY MEEKER: I think width is an important 

11 dimension that she brought up today that you can also 

12 find with PLM as well as TEM. She's tying that to what 

13 is known to be cause mesothelioma and other diseases, 

14 but the width I think is a good indicator and I think 

15 she brought up that. 

16 FRANK EHRENFELD: And TEM would needed to 

17 discover those widths? 

18 GREGORY MEEKER: Those thinner widths. 

19 FRANK EHRENFELD: Yes. Okay. I have one here, 

20 and then I have two more over here. Yeah. 

21 And this is just one question. Is there a process that 

22 allows the views -- a preferable process running 

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through these techniques? I mean, do you do TEM first? 

Do you do XRD first? Do you do PLM first? 

FRANK EHRENFELD: I start with XRD, go to PLM, 

and then end with TEM. 

GARY: So there's a decision tree involved in 

that? 

FRANK EHRENFELD: For me, no. I do it all the 

same. 

GARY: Same here. I do all three. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: I had Sean and somebody 

else with a hand up. Sean. 

SEAN: Yeah. Quickly, with what Ann found 

the tremolite in her closet, right? 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Right. 

SEAN: So does the room agree that if we looked 

at it by electron microscopy, it's possible that we 

could see countable asbestos structures by EM where she 

only saw blocky stuff by ---? 

GARY: Well, as she pointed out -- she 

answered the question twice. By TEM, you would count 

that bundle. If you saw it by TEM you wouldn't try to 

discriminate the individual fibers in that bundle, 

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right? 

MARTIN RUTSTEIN: I don't think that's what he 

asked. 

SEAN: No that's not what I'm saying. 

GARY: What she was saying was that you would 

expect to find discrete same fibers in an asbestos 

containing sample if you looked at it by TEM as well as 

PLM, but with PLM resolution, you're likely to see more 

of those bundles. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Sean. 

SEAN: I was just saying that she found 

tremolite in and out in her product. Does the room 

agree or disagree that it's possible that there would be 

countable structures findable by electron microscopy in 

that same container? 

GARY: I agree. And I think for all of those 

who have done that -- worked with an EM, you can go, 

yeah. 

ROBERT: That's in every matrix, not just talc 

and cosmetic. 

GARY: Right. 

STEVE: Every single type of sampling we do 

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Page 44 

1 for asbestos, they're what you see by optimal 

2 microscopy is an indicator. Yeah. You might have a 

3 high percentage, but if you do it by TEM, you're going 

4 to see a lot more. 

5 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. One at a time. 

6 Steve. 

7 STEVE: And that's why in that decision tree 

8 process that we were just talking about I always start 

9 with TEM because of all the reasons that we're talking 

10 about there. That's the one that's most likely the one 

11 to find countable asbestos fibers. If I find it there, 

12 if it's positive -- and that's the question at hand --

13 is it there? There's no other test that's going to get 

14 overrule that. 

15 GARY: Well, I got a clean exit then. 

16 FRANK EHRENFELD: This is just an opportunity 

17 to have this esteemed panel. Is there a consensus on 

18 what diameter asbestos bundle can be resolved by 

19 polarized light microscopy? 

20 GARY: Well, there's -- you can do the 

21 calculation for the limits of light and magnification. 

22 FRANK EHRENFELD: Back before you were born, 

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micrometer. So you can see it, but you don't know what 

it is. So I think one micrometer is the boundary where 

you can determine the optical properties. 

GARY: So there's two full questions. But you 

can see the 1 micrometer fiber. You just can't --

FRANK EHRENFELD: Not a 0.1. 

GARY: Right. Okay. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. Okay. We have Allen 

and then we have Andrew. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 8: All right. I was going to 

say the same thing as Jim. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. So then Allen and then 

back to you. 

ALLEN: I'm trying to remember my thought 

here. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 10: We're both named Allen. 

(Audience laughs.) 

ALLEN: Going back to PLM, you know, again, 

the value to me by PLM is, again, that example Jim just 

brought up with the, you know, one micrometer width. 

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1 You would expect if you had asbestos in a bulk sample 

2 looking at such a large amount of material, you would 

3 see other particles, and that goes to the population 

4 characteristics of the sample. 

5 By TEM, I disagree if you use a founding 

6 protocol, then you see one or two fibers that meet that 

7 protocol, you have now confirmed asbestos when you deem 

8 most of this top material comes from nonasbestiform 

9 contamination. Again, going back to PLM if you have a 

10 population or even further analysis -- by TEM if you 

11 have a lot of particles, the width factors that were 

12 brought up today by TEM comes to play, and I think you 

13 can apply that and start to make some sense of what 

14 you're actually seeing. 

15 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. Can we boil that down 

16 to, hey, in an analytical method in Section 16, we have 

17 to apply this -- you have to count so many particles to 

18 actually officially say that you have this hazardous 

19 fiber? 

20 ALLEN: Well, you have to. What if you looked 

21 at it by TEM and you didn't see anything and you put it 

22 on PLM and you saw a large particles. Now you've 

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characterized the whole population. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. Allen. 

ALLEN: Okay. I guess the question I have is: 

Should the -- or a question maybe -- it has to do with 

this analytical technique. Should the FDA fund -- put 

out a solicitation for civil labs to develop a protocol 

-- I'm thinking of TEM -- such that the issues that came 

up in the RJ Lee Group letter that was part of the 

materials wouldn't arise or would solve that dilemma? 

And that's the question I have. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. 

ALLEN: Are you going to just allow that? 

Because if you don't have a specific technique, that's 

going to come up over and over and over again. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Absolutely. Let me -- let me 

sort of promote the ASTM way. (Audience laughs.) So 

Catherine -- most everybody in here is related to USP or 

has been on one of those panels. There's a lot of ASTM 

members here as well. 

One of the things that ASTM has over ISO 

methods is that we require an inter-laboratory study to 

determine precision and bias and certainly 

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reproducibility and repeatability and confidence. 

So at the end of the day, yes, Allen. If --

should some group fund a study to determine, the answer 

is yes, but if you heard Martin Harper, he would say, 

"Yeah. But can we first start with the toxicologist so 

that we can determine which small piece of this or that 

is actually maybe causing the disease before we even go 

there?" And yet at some point, whether it's a PLM, 

TEM, XRD, combination, perhaps a study per matrix needs 

to be involved; and maybe that's where they go to RTI 

and they say, "Hey, we're ending a study down the road 

or SRI out in California. It's going to be cosmetic 

talc. Can you start getting this out to reference 

laboratories, and FDA is paying the bill," or something, 

but the answer is yes. To what extent I think is the 

follow-up on that one. 

Catherine. 

CATHERINE: Yeah, Frank, just to follow up, so 

to put it into perspective how USP are at the meeting 

today, back in 2010, the CDER part of FDA submitted to 

USP several letters for request to strengthen specific 

monographs. One of those was the talc USP 

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1 monograph. At the time you recall there were several 

2 fatalities where the supply chain had been adulterated 

3 with the heparins, the glycerins. This was kind of the 

4 next phase of FDA approaching USP to put in more 

5 specific methods. 

6 So the purview of USP is quality. It is not 

7 safety. It is not toxicology. Our goal within the 

8 panel is to come up with a method that will replace the 

9 existing method in the USP talc. So that is the scope 

10 of our work. The panel definitely can give you a lot 

11 more information in terms of, you know, the progress 

12 they have made towards getting that proposal out there; 

13 but from -- you know, from my exposure today -- pardon 

14 the pun -- I feel that we definitely need to engage all 

15 stakeholders before we put that revision proposal out 

16 in PF because I think it would be very beneficial to 

17 the panel and our expert committee to get feedback on 

18 the proposal that we will be putting in, in terms of a 

19 new method. 

20 So I put that out there today that USP will 

21 consider some kind of a convening invitation for all 

22 stakeholders to give us comment on the proposed method 

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that we're putting in there. I think it's important. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. I'll take one more 

question, then I need to slightly change the theme 

before we move forward. Yes. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: Yes. I wanted to bring up 

the topic you mentioned about ASTM. So before going to 

a test method which is going to be very specific using 

TEM, SEM, it could have a value that can have these 

steps that (inaudible) preparation of the sample if it 

is a -- just the material, the raw material kind of 

characterization versus actually in the product. So what 

I am hearing is that we're going on a case topic on the 

product containing the asbestiform or the methods for 

that -- the quantitative methods? 

FRANK EHRENFELD: If methods that are being 

currently in development for ASTM, qualitative and 

quantitative for asbestos in talc, mineral assemblages, 

I think. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Mineral powders? 

FRANK EHRENFELD: What's that? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Mineral powders? 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Mineral powders. I'm sorry. 

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Correct. So we're working on some of these obstacles 

and challenges. Are you saying, hey, can you just have 

a prep method and then maybe can you just have a suite 

of methods working. Just do them all. Make sure that 

this method A, you say, hey, if that's not good enough, 

we have to use these other ones to at least eliminate 

all the possibilities? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: Yeah. So my challenge and 

we have almost all the (inaudible) to do all those, and 

we work in a nanoscience lab and we work in a nano size 

range not in a micro size range

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. 

CATHERINE: Be a snob. (Audience laughs.) 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: I have a challenge in, 

let's say, using an SEM or a TEM. If I quantitated my 

-- it is quantitative. We get excellent structural 

details using EES calculation analysis, but if you give 

me a talc product and then ask me, okay, take a gram of 

this, tell me how much of this asbestiform is present, 

this will be qualitive, not quantitive. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Right. I -- many of us here 

today will disagree with you. I'll give one person the 

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opportunity. 

Sean? 

SEAN: Nuts. Thank you. (Audience laughs.) We 

have to realize that there's some unknown problems, but 

this doesn't necessarily correlate to exposure. But 

there's a -- it gives us some sort of idea potentially. 

If we have a talc product that contains 7,000 countable

asbestos structures per gram, it's much less likely in 

the same matrix as one that has 7 million asbestos 

structures per gram. So if we do do a quantification 

based on countable structures observable in the bulk 

material, not necessarily percentage, we are able to then 

know which ones are more likely to release asbestos, then 

we can move on to the top space where we actually 

simulate use. FRANK EHRENFELD: I have to move on to 

a slightly different theme, if it is real quick. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: It is quick. The 

structures per gram number that is used quite often in 

talc analysis now can be manipulated into anything you 

want it to be. You can find one big tremolite 

structure, calculate its mass and then translate that 

into a millions of the tiniest things you can possibly 

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see and then extrapolate that into structures per gram 

and you only saw one big structure -- not you. But I'm 

only saying this because I -- I saw this exactly done 

in a report I reviewed. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. So that falls under 

that category we had under reporting. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: I know. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Right? To what extent are 

we going to report our data? To what extent will be 

qualitative or quantitative and what might be the 

result and in what form? 

Okay. I need to get into another -- a final 

theme before we go forward. When the NIOSH roadmap was 

introduced and the elongated mineral particle concept 

was put out there -- now ten years ago, maybe more --

Jim Weber was present then in DC, and he purposed, 

slightly in the back, that it -- actually not just be 

EMP but be hazardous elongated mineral particles; and 

when they broke hemp on the board they realize that 

that wasn't going to fly. I. (Audience laughs.) 

GREGORY MEEKER: I moved to Oregon. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: That being said, we have to 

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make sure that we are true to our charge; and the 

charge here today from JIFSAN is -- if you move me back 

to slide one -- is for mineral fibers, right? Mineral 

fibers in cosmetics. So how does -- if we leave out 

that word "asbestos," how is that changing the 

complexion of anything we discussed? Meaning, hey, 

what about that ribbon talc? To what extent would that 

method capture that? What about those -- that Jim Weber 

or Millette -- I think Marty or somebody had a reference 

to the Millette 2015 --

MARTIN RUTSTEIN: Kinky Talc. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Kinky talc. Everybody 

perked up when somebody said "kinky." So but to what 

extent are these elongated mineral particles going to 

change the dynamic and the content of what we talk 

about today? Anybody? Yes. 

SEAN: Let me just make a bold statement, and 

then I wish I was sitting closer to the door. 

(Audience laughs.) 

CATHERINE: We'll give you a head start. 

SEAN: Any elongated rock that makes its way 

into fiber cleavage fragment particle, it makes its 

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1 way, whether we realize or not, is going to cause 

2 inflammation. That is the initiation of a series of 

3 biochemical steps that can lead to lethal lung disease, 

4 cancer, or mesothelioma. 

5 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. 

6 SEAN: And so that's your target. 

7 FRANK EHRENFELD: Right. 

8 AUDIENCE MEMBER 7: Can I say --

9 FRANK EHRENFELD: Is it respirable? Hold on. 

10 Hold on. 

11 SEAN: If its aspect ratio is correct, it's 

12 respirable. 

13 AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: I guess my point is in the 

14 absence of the full mechanism, should we be reporting 

15 as much data as possible at every step? Not just what 

16 fiber -- like, okay, here's fiber retail. Here's fiber 

17 of tremolite. Then just keep recording as much data as 

18 possible so in 20 years down the line, we've gotten 

19 closer and closer. But we're losing time by not 

20 recording, I think, as much data as possible; and I 

21 think that this is the time to try to narrow that down. 

22 FRANK EHRENFELD: Which brings us back to what 

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1 Greg's talking about earlier in your presentation. At 

2 some point -- and if you're a microscopist, you don't 

3 want to have to put that sample back in later. You 

4 want to get it all out of the way. So whatever is 

5 underneath that scope at that time, you want to count, 

6 analyze, characterize, whatever the case may be so you 

7 don't have to --

8 AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: You can thin out 

9 concentration any way you want, any size fiber you 

10 want. 

11 FRANK EHRENFELD: And so then you have the 

12 data, okay? So if down the road there's a decision 

13 that, you know, ribbons of kinky talc wearing red boots 

14 are a problem, you have data to capture that. Brad. 

15 BRAD: The good news is if you're gonna -- if 

16 we're going to stick to the discussion of talc, you're 

17 not going to find a wide variety of fibrous minerals. 

18 AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: Okay. The actually 

19 finished product, like a lot of the talc-- a lot of the 

20 products that we've analyzed, I've seen in retail 

21 fibers left in them. There was stuff that they added to 

22 it that we're not -- they're all lost

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AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: I keep thinking about rock 

and stuff --

FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. You thinking about a 

talc -- a talc deposit. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: I wouldn't put it on my 

face. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Instead of the talc deposit 

thing, cosmetic talc. Sean and a couple others, and I 

think we're going to try to sum up. 

SEAN: Looking at a lot of these, what's the 

most common mineral fiber that you find in talc? Talc. 

All right. There's two ways it can be fibers. It can 

be this kinky stuff which is ribbon-y. It's more like 

--it exhibits its platy nature and the bends of white 

kinks. All right? It's still talc, and then you have 

blocky talc which is more often than not pseudomorphic

after a fibrous parent. If it came from an tremolite or 

an anthophyllite parent, it looks like an anthophyllite 

tremolite and often can be intergrown with those mother 

minerals. 

The other thing we see a lot when we have 

serpentine as a protolite is we see serpentine but more 

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often than not it's either antigorite or magnesium 

depleted chrysotile, which is actually, technically 

sepiolite. We see sepiolite all the time in talcs. So 

if we're going to look at all the known fibers that we 

see in talc. If we look at talc ore, it's very common 

to see fibrous talc -- either kinky or blocky. It's 

very common to see sepiolite, which has nothing to do 

with that thing. And then we start putting in 

particles we do often see -- the (inaudible) which is 

an interference. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: I'd like to come up with a 

few nuggets -- bullet points here so that we can 

summarize this eventually. Robyn has produced a few 

here for us listening to the discussion. We have less 

alteration. The less alteration to the sample during 

prep, the better. Anybody vehemently disagree with 

that? 

GARY: Yes. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Overruled. (Audience 

laughs.) 

GARY: It's not elongated. It took Brad a 

long time to convince you. Now it's elongate, and it's 

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1 a fragment. It's a particular, not necessarily a 

2 fiber; and you can take a platy talc and braid it so 

3 that you get fragments parallel to the hexagonal 

4 structural framework. They're elongate. So these are 

5 particles. When we start calling them fibers or 

6 asbestiform, we're already loading the gun. I know what 

7 they are. 

8 FRANK EHRENFELD: Right. And so to what extent 

9 would a method or an SOP either limit/censor --careful 

10 -- or allow or -- to use somebody's word --tolerate -- 

11 Martin's word -- tolerate these odd type of particle 

12 populations? Okay? And that's in the report inside as 

13 well. 

14 So we had -- it will take more than one 

15 technique. Are we pretty much in agreement? And, yes, 

16 Steve -- Steve's like, "I'm gonna write to TEM. I'm not 

17 wasting any time and money anymore right there." And yet 

18 we also have -- yet you might miss something or you get 

19 better be on the safe side, and quite frankly, a client 

20 might want the "peon potluck" method -- don't tell 

21 anyone I said that -- but before you go to TEM, which is 

22 the terribly expensive method. So I think 

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1 that was the only word I had. 

2 We can go right to this other method but --

3 GARY: Sean got hammered by the feds with a 

4 big PowerPoint because he skipped the initial methods 

5 --

6 (Crosstalk) 

7 FRANK EHRENFELD: And we've all seen Sean 

8 hammered. (Audience laughs.) 

9 The people -- no, it was unfair. It was 

10 unfair. I think what happened was that it was a 

11 Johnson conference by a really wonderful young lady 

12 standing in the corner. It's a schematic as a 

13 flowchart. (Inaudible). 

14 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. So I think we're going 

15 to go with that. 

16 ROBERT: If you go with what Robin just said 

17 and you try to characterize everything in the sample, 

18 you're going to miss a lot of the sample by only doing 

19 TEM. 

20 ROBYN RAY: Well, that's it. My multiple 

21 techniques. I tried to characterize as much as possible 

22 through each technique so that later you can build a 

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better --

STEVE: One more point. The other thing is is 

that I guess what I heard Dr. Wylie say --and maybe 

other health individuals can chime in -- But it seems to 

me that width is the common denominator -- at least for 

mesothelioma, at a certain width or less it's 

problematic. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: So that should be looked at.

Let's come back to that segment. Greg. 

GREGORY MEEKER: I'm not hearing SEM. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: You're not hearing SEM. It's 

in our pantheon of technologies. If it was up there, 

then it's a technique that should either be explored or 

as an option, but perhaps none of these are individual 

standalone and they need to be in conjunction with 

another. 

GREGORY MEEKER: Right. But SEM is fast. 

It's cheap. It's pretty. You can get very high 

magnifications these days. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 9: Yeah. (Inaudible) I think 

that ICPM can do elemental composition analysis. No, 

ICPMS. 

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1 FRANK EHRENFELD: So ICPMS. Possibly. That 

2 might be redundant with the XRD data and certainly under 

3 DES data for chemistry with TEM, but ICP mass spec is --

4 AUDIENCE MEMBER 9: Basic mass has to be 

5 quantitated. Something I can take around and then know 

6 exactly how much iron is in it. You just don't. 

7 

8 fiber. 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Just don't know if it's

GREGORY MEEKER: We do not recommend that. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Right. 

GARY: Yeah, but ICPM has its --- elements.

(Crosstalk) 

CATHERINE: Elements, yeah. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 9: I don't know. Something 

15 to see if it has iron or something.

16 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. Yeah. 

17 AUDIENCE MEMBER 10: Quick question. In one 

18 of the talks they pointed out that necessity of iron 

19 being present in the fibers and correlating the 

20 biological outcome. Will any of these methods pick up 

21 how much iron is there and if it surfaced, what charge? 

22 FRANK EHRENFELD: Wow, is that going to cost 

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1 you a lot of money after that. 

2 AUDIENCE MEMBER 10: I know. I know but, you 

3 know. I mean, something to answer. 

4 BRAD: I think at the end of the day, you 

5 know, the lab professionals would agree. Yeah, if you 

6 want to give me a sample that I know would have a 

7 hundred structures and I'm going to be able to take 100 

8 different spectra and accumulate enough data where 

9 there's some sort of conference. Says, "This is good 

10 data, and I can tell you what the iron content might 

11 be," I might have to take scans of this end of that --

12 of that structure all the way down to this end of that 

13 structure to really get a good --

14 (Crosstalk) 

15 AUDIENCE MEMBER 10: The person said the two 

16 distinguish between ferric and ferrous iron, you can't 

17 do that. 

18 ROBYN RAY: You can't do that. 

19 BRAD: You can't, but iron content you could. 

20 FRANK EHRENFELD: Certainly something that we 

21 did a method would want to capture. I have Greg and 

22 then I have Jim, and then we need to do a few more 

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1 (inaudible). Go ahead. 

2 GREGORY MEEKER: 

3 are estimated. Auger. 

4 FRANK EHRENFELD: 

5 GREGORY MEEKER: 

6 DR. 

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Surface with Auger

Auger. 

 And I'm gonna turn my pass to 

7 SEAN: That's good. 

8 FRANK EHRENFELD: And that's -- SEM would be -

9 - use that technique with SEM, right? 

10 GREGORY MEEKER: Well, you can attempt 

11 scanning imagines with Auger. 

12 FRANK EHRENFELD: Yes. Jim. 

13 AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: I wanted to address the 

14 iron question because iron is something that Dr. Mossman 

15 has looked at in great detail, and she's a great 

16 believer that it is a primary initiator of cell 

17 responses. You talk to other pathologists, they will 

18 say, "Well, it's not really that important." 

19 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: I know but in toxicology 

20 free iron it does contribute to an awful lot of 

21 reactive species generations, so it's sort of like the 

22 elephant that's standing there. 

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GREGORY MEEKER: Well, but then is that the 

only method by which damage comes to the cells? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: No. 

GREGORY MEEKER: Through free radicals. 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: No. No. It's not the 

only method, but it is another method. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: I had Allen. Go ahead. 

ALLEN: Same analogy. Lee and I were talking 

last night genetic predisposition. One person has a 

predispositon to get mesothelioma, another doesn't. Do 

you ignore it, or do you quantify the iron the best you 

can? 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 11: You (inaudible). 

ALLEN: Well, yes, you look at the iron but

whether or not you spend thousands of dollars on 

samples to determine whether or not it's FE2 or FE3--

AUDIENCE MEMBER 11: So what if he's off the 

(inaudible). 

ALLEN: True. And all these techniques you 

can look at it --

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1 cut you off. 

2 SEAN: Just to come back into the iron thing, 

3 iron doesn't have to be part of the actual mineral in 

4 order to bring iron there. It can be biologically 

5 placed. That's why we get iron nodules on fibers, and 

6 you ask these guys -- I knew a few of them, but there's 

7 a man in the front that does a lot of them. If you look 

8 at the lung tissue, you're going to see the ferruginous

9 bodies on almost any fiber type. 

10 (Crosstalk) 

11 ALLEN: Jaglets (ph) of body response 

12 (inaudible). 

13 SEAN: Right. It's going to -- you're going 

14 to get -- yeah, the body is going to produce iron to

15 coat. Any fiber, even silica fibers bring iron to the 

16 site which could be your toxicologic --. 

17 GARY: Geritol. 

18 SEAN: What? 

19 GARY: Geritol. 

20 FRANK EHRENFELD: Again --

21 (Crosstalk) 

22 A lot of good stuff here. We want to make 

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1 sure we are just trying to formulate something here 

2 that we can put forth to the group. 

3 So various techniques, use more than one, and 

4 we also put SEM and Auger spectroscopy on there as well. 

5 And then it's this quandary of are we going for asbestos 

6 and classical definitions in the laboratory over the 

7 years or definitions for the risk assessors for what 

8 asbestos is or definitions for the geologists and what 

9 is it for? Or are we going to go with something like 

10 EMP and what that entails? So again, we don't need to 

11 re-discuss that. I think these are some of the three 

12 main points that we discussed. 

13 I also have written down real small to make 

14 sure we capture the larger document later, measuring 

15 for iron and being able to differentiate some of the 

16 minerals with their iron content might be important, 

17 measuring width and making sure that that data is part 

18 of the data set. It may be important. ICPMS might be 

19 added to the library of methods that we might be about 

20 to choose from. 

21 Any other large issues that, again, fall under 

22 what we've been talking about; and I'll tell you what, 

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Page 68 

1 let's go through the slides again. This was our 

2 charge. We talked about -- well, we also talked about, 

3 you know, talc the deposit and perhaps talc in a 

4 cosmetic and what that implies; how it might be used; 

5 what might be holding it together or not holding it 

6 together. Reference standards, reference materials, we 

7 talked about that. 

8 We now have a couple others that we can 

9 promote. Prep techniques, again, the general statement 

10 here which I'm clearly not altering anything; and yes, 

11 some of these techniques can be rather aggressive. 

12 And then what are you going to do with all 

13 that data? Who's going to be the audience to you? 

14 Absolutely capture as much as possible and, you know, 

15 at some point it gets down to basic science, right? 

16 We're going to observe, measure, record document. 

17 There you go, Cline (ph). Right? You got it. 

18 AUDIENCE MEMBER 12: The good news is that if 

19 you do mass analysis by TEM, you're doing all those 

20 careful length and width measurements. So you've got 

21 all the data to report as a mass and as structure per 

22 gram, and if you put all that data out in a report, 

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1 they can see all the widths you contend, aspect ratios, 

2 my length. 

3 So for TEM labs -- TEM analysts here. Show of 

4 hands again. Who has done the old ASTMD5756? Right. 

5 Okay. You got to record length and width. There's a 

6 specific gravity that's thrown in there, so you can make 

7 certain calculations. 

8 Who's done work for EPA using the old NADES --

9 the NADES database, right? Same thing, collect 

10 everything that you can. Throw it in there because 20 

11 years from now, they want you to go back and look at 

12 something, and you don't want to put a sample or a grid 

13 back in that scale, right? 

14 Is anybody else have any other final comments 

15 before we dismiss you to the bar? No, I'm sorry, to 

16 the next session. Gary. 

17 GARY: When a structure's per gram, I think 

18 what should be presented on the denominator is the 

19 number of particles that are the nonstructures. So if 

20 you have a talc as a D50 of, let's just say, 2 micron 

21 on 5 micron, 10 micron, you should calculate a typical 

22 number; and it could be millions, and that should be 

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the denominator instead of what you see there is a one. 

Actually, your mind will see a large numerator and a 

one, and it says 1 gram. Your mind takes up one with 

possibly 10s to 100s of thousands of structures based 

on observing one TM structure -- calculated structures 

by gram. So if you think about it, it should really be 

represented in how many nonstructural particles are in 

that denominator and when you write out 10 million, 5 

million with all the zeros, it's a much different 

perspective. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: So can I summarize this 

thing? Put your data in context relative to what's in 

there? 

ROBYN RAY: Yeah. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: He just said, "Parts for 

million and parts for billions." 

GARY: Right. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: I had Lee. I had Greg and 

Shawn. Go ahead, Greg. 

GREGORY MEEKER: Standards are critical and 

I'm not -- it's spike talc, yes; but I'm talking also 

about standards to analyze to see if your EDS is giving 

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you the right answer, okay, to see if your measurement 

on your image is the correct size. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Yeah. 

GREGORY MEEKER: All of these things are 

really important, and I don't see them used enough. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Who has run out of SRM2063 

to calibrate their TEMEDS? We still have a few of 

those glass grids left, but you know, they're 

carbonized and everything else. 

Who's tried the Icelandic assault from USGS? 

Okay. Varying results? Yeah. 

GREGORY MEEKER: BIR-1G is what I would 

recommend. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: I'll be sending you an email asking. Just let us know. 

(Crosstalk) 

GREGORY MEEKER: No, I don't -- I don't work 

there anymore so --

ROBYN RAY: Yeah. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: That that's the Icelandic assault 

for you? Okay. 

ROBYN RAY: Yes. 

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GREGORY MEEKER: Is that yes? Honey, put some 

in there. Yeah, RO1G is --

(Crosstalk) 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. I think Shawn -- Lee 

and Shawn, anything else? 

SEAN: Go ahead. 

LEE: It was just a comment on the whole fiber 

per gram reporting to be going back to a era where one 

structure could be one chrysotile .5 or a huge, you 

know, bundle or seven plus in a 5755 or our -- your 

know, Jim Millette and Steve Haze spent a -- no one has 

ever really successfully extrapolated the concentration 

like that into a risk assessment that I'm aware of, and 

so I've always been little cautious about that type of 

report. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: Absolutely. Sean. 

SEAN: Well, we have Steve Haze on a lot of 

work. He obviously did a little bit of experimental

work and came up with rough categorizations. You have 

zero to 10,006; low to slight or none. You have 10,000 

to 50,000. I don't remember the exact bracket, but he 

had these bins of level of severity of overall

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contamination. You weren't saying this is specifically 

going to release this number of fibers. You just had 

some sort of idea in the number of asbestos structures 

per unit area of dust what the severity of the 

contamination was, and then the next step would be to go 

back and do, say, an aggressive air test. Well, that's 

the same thing that we need to do. If we have asbestos 

and talc, we need to say, "All right. Let's get some 

sort of idea how many asbestos structures there are per 

unit weight." 

AUDIENCE MEMBER 5: We can make it (inaudible) 

again, so worry about the large number. 

SEAN: It's the lack of SOP that concerns me. 

GARY: Yeah, and that's what it comes to. The 

SOP is standardization, is an example of the structure 

per gram, and you put -- one of the problems I have is, 

seeing one structure, you prep your sample in such a 

way that you have 50 million structures per gram based 

on the seeing one structure. That's not a valid 

analysis. 

FRANK EHRENFELD: It's certainly not telling 

the story correctly perhaps, and that's why putting it 

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Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

Page 74 

1 in proper context --

2 GARY: And ignoring something some other 

3 technique to look at the other population. I think 

4 it's important. 

5 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. I think we're done 

6 here. Julie, you have the last word. 

7 AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: I think one thing that is 

8 really important that any method is its validation at 

9 the end of it and the way you do that is to create 

10 standards, and there is absolutely no way to create a 

11 standard with x-number of fibers. We all create 

12 standards by the weight. That's the only thing I have 

13 to say. 

14 FRANK EHRENFELD: Okay. I want to thank you 

15 for your time today. I don't know exactly -- since we 

16 were delayed in starting on that session to start, if 

17 there's anything you think we missed, come up and let 

18 us know. Otherwise, I wanted to thank Robyn and thank 

19 you, and we'll see you at the end of the session today. 

20 

21 

22 

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Page 75 

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 

I, KEVON CONGO, the officer before whom the 

foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that 

the proceedings were recorded by me and thereafter 

reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said 

proceedings are a true and accurate record to the best 

of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am neither 

counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 

parties to the action in which this was taken; and, 

further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 

counsel or attorney employed by the parties hereto, nor 

financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 

this action. 

KEVON CONGO 

Notary Public in and for the 

State of Maryland 

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Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

Page 76 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER 

2 I, CINDY FORRISTER, do hereby certify that 

3 this transcript was prepared from audio to the best of 

4 my ability. 

5 

6 I am neither counsel for, related to, nor 

7 employed by any of the parties to this action, nor 

8 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of 

9 this action. 

10 

11 

12 December 9, 2018 

13 DATE CINDY FORRISTER 

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Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[0.1 - allow] Page 1 

0 21:14,18,21 22:2 

23:17 24:2,4 

50:19,21 57:1,5 

64:19 65:3,5 

350 1:21 

4 

4 17:7,12 18:22 

19:12 20:4,14 

34:14,18 52:17 

53:7 64:13 

5 

5 20:19 21:16 24:1 

31:14 69:21 70:8 

72:9 73:11 

50 73:18 

50,000 72:21 

55-60 30:4 

5755 72:10 

6 

6 27:9 33:18 34:12 

35:10 36:18,22 

55:13 56:8,18 

74:7 

600 30:19 

7 

7 27:15 36:9,12 

52:9 55:8 

7,000 52:7 

7777 1:12 

8 

8 31:21 45:12 

82 35:8 

85 35:8 

857-3376 1:14 

9 

9 32:21 39:10 

61:20 62:4,14 

76:12 

90 21:3 34:3 35:12 

92 35:12 

99 35:2 

99.99 35:14 

68:14 72:16 74:10 

accessory 35:9 

accomplish 61:21 

accumulate 63:8 

accurate 75:6 

action 32:7 75:9 

75:13 76:7,9 

activity 19:11,12 

actual 66:3 

added 56:21 67:19 

addison 11:12 

additional 10:13 

address 19:7 

64:13 

adherences 17:1,2 

adulterated 49:2 

advantages 31:6 

40:12 

africa 32:4 

afternoon 4:4 

agency 7:2 

aggressive 21:20 

39:21,22 68:11 

73:6 

ago 15:2,10 34:16 

38:11 53:15 

agree 29:1 40:20 

42:15 43:13,16 

63:5 

agreement 59:15 

agrees 30:2 

ahead 23:15 64:1 

65:7 70:19 72:6 

air 3:18 20:2 

25:14 

airborne 9:11 

alice 69:3 

allen 13:16 45:10 

45:14,16,18,20 

46:20 47:2,3,12 

48:2 65:7,8,14,19 

66:11 

allow 34:9 47:12 

59:10 

0.1 15:11 

0.1. 45:8 a 

aaronfeld 1:8 2:3 

3:2,8 7:15 13:15 

13:21 14:3,12,15 

14:22 16:3,6 17:1 

17:4,8,10,14 18:3 

18:14,16,21 19:11 

19:18 20:17 21:20 

21:22 22:11 23:15 

23:20 24:9 26:2 

28:4,19 29:6,14 

31:4,12 32:9 33:4 

33:7,12,15 34:5,8 

35:3 36:1 37:5,22 

38:3,6,8 39:9,13 

39:15 40:13,20 

41:16,19 42:3,7 

42:10,14 43:10 

44:5,16,22 45:8 

45:10,14 46:15 

47:2,11,15 50:2 

50:15,20,22 51:12 

51:21 52:15 53:5 

53:8,22 54:12 

55:5,7,9,22 56:11 

57:3,7 58:11,19 

59:8 60:7,14 61:8 

61:11 62:1,7,10 

62:16,22 63:20 

64:4,8,12 65:7,21 

66:20 70:11,15,18 

71:3,6,14,20 72:4 

72:16 73:21 74:5 

74:14 

ability 40:15 75:7 

76:4 

able 10:15 11:6 

15:11 21:1 52:12 

63:7 67:15 

absence 55:14 

absolutely 14:5 

16:6 38:8 47:15 

1 

1 13:14,20 14:2 

15:18 45:7 50:5 

51:8,14 70:3 

10 34:15,19 38:12 

45:18 62:17 63:2 

63:15 69:21 70:8 

10,000 72:20 

10,006 72:20 

100 63:7 

100s 70:4 

10s 70:4 

11 65:13,17 

12 38:12 68:18 

1250 1:21 

14841 76:12 

15 22:7 

16 46:16 

17004 75:16 

1975 4:22 

1:30 1:9 

2 

2 28:13 29:17 31:8 

32:20 34:21 35:1 

35:5,11,16,19 

36:14,17 37:15,17 

37:19 69:20 

20 55:18 69:10 

2000-2001 23:3 

20005 1:22 

2010 48:20 

2015 54:10 

2018 76:12 

202 1:14 

20740 1:13 

3 

3 2:3 16:4,9 17:2,6 

17:9,11,13,17 

18:12,15,19 20:16 

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Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

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allows 41:22 

alluding 25:13 

alter 18:11 21:7 

alteration 58:15 

58:15 

altering 21:13 

68:10 

amend 18:7 

amended 5:21 

amount 19:5 46:2 

amounts 10:6 

analogy 27:6 65:8 

analysis 1:6 28:2 

46:10 51:17 52:19 

61:21 68:19 73:20 

analyst 8:19 

analysts 5:1 6:20 

7:6 32:22 

analytical 6:14 

7:19 9:21 10:5,22 

11:11,21 12:13,18 

18:4 24:6 27:7 

29:18 32:19 39:17 

46:16 47:5 

analyze 20:6 21:1 

56:6 70:22 

analyzed 56:20 

analyzing 8:20 

20:3 31:12 

andres 25:1 

andrew 45:11 

ann 4:17,19 8:17 

8:20 12:5 41:6 

42:12 

annalist 28:21 

anonymous 4:5 

answer 7:10 10:2 

31:9 33:5 36:2 

48:3,15 63:3 71:1 

answered 25:12 

42:20 

answers 15:22 

anthophyllite 

25:11 30:16 57:18 

57:18 

anthrophyllite 

29:22 

antigorite 58:1 

antoxillitis 66:16 

anybody 13:12 

15:22 41:4 54:16 

58:16 69:14 

anymore 59:17 

71:18 

apa600 13:2 

apologize 37:1 

application 20:2 

apply 46:13,17 

approach 12:18 

22:21 23:12 

approaches 11:11 

approaching 49:4 

appropriate 3:5 

area 26:19 73:4 

areas 27:21 

arenite 26:16 

argument 27:22 

asbestiform 9:6 

15:7 30:1 50:13 

51:19 59:6 

asbestos 1:3 3:11 

3:14 4:9,22 5:5 

6:2,12 11:14,15 

15:4,7,12,20 

24:21 25:6,17,18 

25:20 26:15,16,20 

26:21 27:5 30:8 

30:22 31:13 41:4 

42:17 43:6 44:1 

44:11,18 46:1,7 

50:17 52:7,9,13 

54:5 67:6,8 73:3,8 

73:9 

ash 8:6 

asked 43:3 

asking 25:12 

71:15 

aspect 12:6 55:11 

69:1 

aspects 37:7 

assault 71:10,21 

assemblages 50:17 

assessment 72:13 

assessors 67:7 

associated 16:10 

assumes 28:17 

ast 50:16 

astm 3:9 5:9,18 

10:5 47:16,19,20 

astmd5756 69:4 

astn 50:6 

attempt 64:10 

attention 35:4 

39:16 

attorney 75:11 

attributes 35:6,7 

35:17 

audience 5:13 

6:18 11:18 13:14 

13:20 14:2 16:1,4 

16:9 17:2,6,7,9,11 

17:12,13,15,17 

18:12,15,19,22 

19:12 20:4,12,14 

20:16,19 21:14,16 

21:18,21 22:2 

23:17 24:1,2,4 

27:9,15 28:9,13 

29:5,17 31:8,21 

32:20,21 33:18 

34:12,14,15,18,19 

34:21 35:1,5,10 

35:11,16,19 36:9 

36:12,14,17,18,22 

37:10,15,17,19 

39:3,10 45:12,18 

45:19 47:16 50:5 

50:19,21 51:8,13 

51:14 52:3,17 

53:7,20 54:19 

55:8,13 56:8,18 

57:1,5 58:19 60:8 

61:20 62:4,14,17 

63:2,15 64:13,19 

65:3,5,13,17 

68:13,18 73:11 

74:7 

audio 76:3 

australia 38:14 

available 31:9 

avenue 1:12 

avoided 15:1 

aware 38:14 72:13 

awful 11:22 64:20 

b 

b 12:1 

baby 8:18 33:2 

back 4:3 10:18 

12:9 13:7,21 

15:13,21 16:4 

23:13 25:9 28:20 

29:3,6,17 30:18 

31:18 32:10 40:14 

41:13 44:22 45:15 

45:20 46:9 48:20 

53:17 54:2 55:22 

56:3 61:9 66:2 

69:11,13 72:8 

73:6 

bad 52:20 

baltimore 1:12 

bar 16:1 69:15 

base 19:11 32:13 

based 9:12 19:8 

19:12 32:17 33:16 

52:10 70:4 73:18 

basic 10:17 68:15 

basis 8:16 

bathroom 8:19 

bay 34:15 

bed 11:16 19:13 

behave 29:11 

believe 14:5 34:3 

38:5 

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believer 64:16 

bench 28:21 

bending 28:22 

bends 57:14 

beneficial 10:7 

49:16 

best 22:17 29:20 

31:1 65:11 75:6 

76:3 

better 35:8 58:16 

59:19 61:1 

big 22:6 30:12 

53:2 60:4 

bill 48:14 

billions 70:16 

binders 8:1,4 9:17 

bins 72:22 

biochemical 55:3 

biological 6:22 7:8 

26:22 27:3 62:20 

biologically 17:21 

66:4 

bir1g 71:12 

bit 3:20 72:18 

bla 38:14,14,14 

blend 32:14 

blocky 58:6 

board 53:19 

bob's 45:4 

bodies 66:9 

body 66:11,14 

boil 46:15 

bold 54:17 

boots 56:13 

born 44:22 

bossman 64:15 

box 31:2 

bracket 72:21 

brad 35:22 36:2,4 

36:6,11 56:14,15 

58:21 63:4,19 

braid 59:2 

brand 15:6 

breakout 1:5 

breaks 17:20 

breathing 19:9 

brew 38:17 39:8 

bring 22:12 50:5 

66:4,15 

brings 55:22 

broke 53:19 

brookhaven 10:1 

brought 41:11,15 

45:22 46:12 

bubbled 72:22 

build 60:22 

building 5:2 31:17 

bulk 5:2 10:10 

20:3,6 28:2 46:1 

52:11 

bullet 58:12 

bundle 42:21,22 

44:18 72:10 

bundles 17:20 

43:9 

buried 32:4 

burn 21:6 23:8 

burning 25:8 

68:14 

carbonized 71:9 

carcinogenic 

26:13 

care 12:10 20:6 

22:21 

careful 11:2 59:10 

68:20 

case 9:20 15:1 

17:5 27:16 50:12 

56:6 

cases 23:11 

categorizations 

72:19 

category 53:6 

catherine 37:11 

47:17 48:17,18 

51:13 54:20 62:13 

cause 26:15 38:13 

41:13 55:1 

causes 16:13,18 

17:21 26:17 

causing 48:7 

cautious 72:14 

ceiling 31:13 

cell 64:16 

cells 65:2 

cellulose 21:4 

censor 59:9 

certain 9:15,16 

13:8 21:11 32:15 

32:17 33:15,21 

34:9,11 61:6 69:7 

certainly 7:11 

9:15 10:7,14,19 

11:1,3 12:4 19:21 

47:22 62:2 63:20 

73:21 

certificate 75:1 

76:1 

certify 75:3 76:2 

chain 49:2 

chair 3:9 

challenge 51:8,14 

challenges 51:2 

change 9:12 21:8 

50:3 54:15 

changed 34:20 

changing 54:5 

characteristic 

18:12,16 

characteristics 

46:4 

characterization 

19:5 50:11 

characterizations 

24:6 

characterize 56:6 

60:17,21 

characterized 

47:1 

charge 6:11 54:1,2 

62:21 68:2 

charged 24:15 

28:5 

chatfield 15:8 

chatfield's 11:7 

cheap 61:18 

chemical 33:10 

chemist 32:1 

chemistry 10:17 

62:3 

children 5:11 

chloride 34:10 

35:9 

choose 67:20 

chris 25:12 

christmas 11:17 

chrysotile 30:17 

58:2 72:9 

cindy 76:2,13 

circle 10:18 

civil 47:6 

clarification 37:12 

clarify 18:20 

classical 67:6 

c 

c 2:1 3:1 

calculate 52:21 

69:21 

calculated 70:5 

calculation 44:21 

51:17 

calibrate 71:7 

california 48:12 

call 14:20 17:7 

29:13 

called 16:22 19:8 

61:4 

calling 59:5 

cancer 55:4 

cancerous 27:10 

capital 1:20 

capture 54:8 

56:14 63:21 67:14 

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clean 44:15 

clearly 26:19 

68:10 

cleavage 26:7,13 

26:14,15,20 27:2 

27:4 28:10,11,14 

28:16 54:22 

client 59:20 

cline 68:17 

close 16:12 19:15 

31:3 37:22 

closer 54:18 55:19 

55:19 

closet 8:19 42:13 

coated 22:18 

code 66:15 

collect 11:20 

20:11 69:9 

collecting 20:2 

college 1:13 

coloring 21:4 

combination 48:9 

come 4:18 15:17 

29:20 47:14 49:8 

58:11 61:9 66:2 

74:17 

comes 46:8,12 

65:2 73:14 

coming 29:19 

comma 38:6 

comment 49:22 

65:21 72:7 

comments 28:8 

69:14 

committee 49:17 

common 22:3 

23:12 57:11 58:5 

58:7 61:5 

community 4:10 

company 1:20 

completely 30:9 

complexion 54:6 

complication 5:16 

compounds 38:18 

compton 5:10 

concentration 

56:9 72:12 

concept 4:14 

53:14 

concern 5:8 

concerned 20:11 

concerning 26:7 

concerns 73:13 

concurrence 6:14 

conducted 1:8 

conference 60:11 

63:9 

confidence 48:1 

confirm 40:8 

confirmed 46:7 

congo 1:18 75:2 

75:17 

conjunction 61:16 

conscious 37:5 

consensus 28:5 

44:17 

consequently 8:4 

consider 6:19 7:16 

7:19 49:21 

constituents 34:10 

consumer 24:7 

35:21 

contact 16:16 

20:20 

contain 41:3 

containers 14:17 

containing 6:15 

43:7 50:13 

contains 15:18 

52:7 

contaminant 

11:15 

contaminated 5:3 

contamination 

46:9 73:1,5 

contend 69:1 

content 18:11,15 

54:15 63:10,19 

67:16 

context 70:12 74:1 

continues 26:18 

contribute 64:20 

convening 49:21 

conversation 13:9 

convince 27:5 

58:22 

cool 7:5 

cooperate 19:20 

copy 15:13 

cordaites 35:9 

corner 60:12 

correct 51:1 55:11 

71:2 

correctly 73:22 

correlate 52:5 

correlating 62:19 

cosmetic 6:10 7:21 

9:7 22:13 25:6 

33:1,8,22 34:16 

35:14 37:3,21 

43:20 48:12 57:8 

68:4 

cosmetics 1:7 6:15 

9:18 14:9 25:2,17 

32:11 36:15 38:12 

38:20 54:4 

cost 62:22 

counsel 75:8,11 

76:6 

count 28:22 42:20 

46:17 56:5 

countable 9:4,4 

25:20 42:17 43:14 

44:11 52:11 

counting 12:3 

28:21,21 

counts 38:6,7 

couple 3:5,20 9:14 

32:21 39:16 57:8 

68:8 

course 9:5 40:4 

court 27:16,17 

32:7 

cover 37:7 

covered 3:6 

cpfa 37:20 

crayola 23:3 25:9 

crayon 23:5 25:14 

28:9 

crayons 25:9,11 

25:18 

crazy 38:21,22 

39:1 

create 18:18 74:9 

74:10,11 

created 6:4 

creating 6:3 

criteria 12:2 

critical 19:6 70:20 

crosstalk 17:16 

21:17 24:3 34:22 

36:20 60:6 62:12 

63:14 66:10,21 

71:16 72:3 

crystal 10:17 

ctfa 35:5 

ctfs 35:11 

cummingtonite 

30:15 

currently 12:22 

50:16 

cut 15:22 66:1 

d 

d 3:1 

d.c. 1:22 

d2207 5:9 

d50 69:20 

d7712 5:10 

dangerous 38:11 

38:13 

danish 65:2 

dark 14:6 

data 11:21 12:12 

12:13 13:19 14:5 

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Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[data - everything's] Page 5 

27:7,7 53:9 55:15 detail 64:15 

55:17,20 56:12,14 details 51:17 

62:2,3 63:8,10 detect 8:3 11:6 

67:17,18 68:13,21 detected 15:3 

68:22 70:12 detection 24:13 

database 69:9 determine 5:19 

date 76:13 21:12 45:5 47:22 

davis 11:12 48:3,6 65:16 

day 13:22 25:9 develop 47:6 

48:2 63:4 development 18:7 

days 61:19 50:16 

dc 53:16 diameter 44:18 

deal 25:17 different 11:11 

death 32:2 21:11 22:4,8,9,9 

decades 19:10,10 29:18 30:10 36:21 

december 76:12 37:1,2 52:16 63:8 

decision 42:5 44:7 70:9 

56:12 differentiate 

deem 46:7 31:16 67:15 

define 26:10 27:14 difficult 5:16 

defines 33:8 dilemma 47:9 

definitely 49:10 directing 3:17 

49:14 direction 75:5 

definition 4:9,21 director 3:10 

5:5 9:6 27:2,3 disadvantages 

33:1,14 34:13,16 31:6 40:12 

37:14,20 disagree 43:13 

definitions 5:19 46:5 51:22 58:16 

6:1,2 67:6,7,8 disclaimer 40:6 

delayed 74:16 discover 41:17 

deleted 5:21 discrete 43:6 

deliver 12:13 discriminate 

dellamortal 65:10 42:22 

demand 43:15 discuss 67:11 

denominator 61:5 discussed 10:18 

69:18 70:1,8 54:6 67:12 

department 37:21 discussion 3:4,17 

depending 31:1 4:5 37:13 56:16 

depleted 58:2 58:14 

deposit 57:4,7 disease 16:14,18 

68:3 19:5 48:7 55:3 

des 62:3 diseases 41:13 

description 45:1 dismiss 69:15 

disperses 17:20 

dissolving 11:14 

distinguish 63:16 

disturb 17:18 

disturbance 19:6 

20:7 

disturbs 17:19 

dm 42:4 

document 5:14 

67:14 68:16 

documents 6:1 

doing 3:14 12:20 

13:3 31:17 60:18 

68:19 

doj 64:2 

dollar 31:14 

dollars 65:15 

dolomite 15:18,18 

door 54:18 

dose 16:17,17 

doubts 33:14 

dr 13:18 15:8 

40:14 61:3 64:6 

64:14 

drives 32:6 

dry 10:22 

dust 73:4 

dynamic 54:15 

effective 30:15 

effects 16:10 

either 32:10 58:1 

58:6 59:9 61:13 

electron 30:9 

42:16 43:14 

element 61:21 

elements 11:8 

13:7 62:13 

elephant 64:22 

eliminate 51:6 

elongate 58:22 

59:4 

elongated 53:14 

53:18 54:14,21 

58:21 

em 42:17 43:17 

emp 53:18 67:10 

employed 75:8,11 

76:7 

employee 75:10 

employees 5:6 

emsl 3:14 

endless 27:21 

engage 49:14 

entails 67:10 

epa 30:19 69:8 

epidemiological 

6:22 

era 72:8 

eric 11:7 

errors 8:4 

especially 38:18 

establish 6:14 

25:19 27:18 

establishes 69:7 

esteemed 44:17 

estimated 64:3 

evaluate 40:16 

eventually 58:13 

everybody 47:17 

54:12 

everything's 

15:15 

e 

e 2:1,1 3:1,1 10:7 

71:14 

e2 65:16 

e2207 3:9 

earlier 8:8 9:14 

13:10 29:7 40:11 

56:1 

easier 5:13 

eats 28:9 

ed 11:16 

eds 10:14 70:22 

educated 23:1 

ees 51:17 

effect 18:1 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[evidence - friends] Page 6 

evidence 38:15 

exact 72:21 

exactly 19:22 53:3 

62:5 74:15 

example 16:21 

29:20 45:21 73:15 

examples 8:9 

excellent 51:16 

exclusively 6:21 

existing 49:9 

exit 44:15 

expect 43:6 46:1 

expensive 59:22 

experience 13:11 

13:17 

experienced 10:12 

40:16 

expert 13:12 

49:17 

explain 57:14 

explored 61:14 

exposure 12:20 

16:13,15 19:8 

20:10 24:12 27:20 

28:1,3 49:13 52:5 

expressed 10:8 

extent 29:8 48:15 

53:8,9 54:7,14 

59:9 

extrapolate 53:1 

extrapolated 

72:12 

eye 1:21 

fatalities 49:2 

fda 7:4 32:10 47:5 

48:20 49:4 

fdas 48:14 

fe3 65:16 

federal 26:9 

feds 60:3 

feedback 49:17 

feel 20:1 49:14 

ferrous 63:16 

feverishly 18:9 

fiber 6:1 12:3 

18:11,12,16 41:8 

45:7 46:19 54:22 

55:16,16,16 56:9 

57:11 59:2 62:8 

66:9,15 72:7 

fiberless 37:4 

fibers 1:7 6:11,13 

6:15 11:4 17:20 

18:18 21:9 26:10 

26:12 30:10 32:18 

42:22 43:6 44:11 

45:2 46:6 54:3,4 

56:21 57:12 58:4 

59:5 62:19 66:5 

66:15 73:2 74:11 

fibrosity 15:10 

fibrous 10:16 36:5 

56:17 57:17 58:6 

field 41:1 

film 13:22 

filters 7:10 

final 53:12 69:14 

finally 26:22 

financially 75:12 

76:8 

find 9:15,16 13:4 

30:7,16,17 40:7 

41:12 43:6 44:11 

44:11 52:20 56:17 

57:11 

finding 5:7 30:1 

30:19 

fine 15:15 

finish 23:15 29:4 

finished 56:19 

first 24:22 25:18 

25:21 26:1 27:17 

32:22 42:1,2,2 

48:5 

five 32:13 38:12 

fix 20:10 

floor 15:2,7,14 

31:13 

florin 15:13 

flowchart 60:13 

fluidized 11:16 

19:13 

fly 53:20 

follow 18:4 21:22 

48:16,18 

followed 18:5 

food 27:3 

foregoing 75:3 

forget 16:21 

form 19:20 53:11 

formation 9:5 

formula 9:19 

formulate 32:11 

67:1 

formulated 5:2 

formulating 10:5 

formulation 22:15 

formulations 22:8 

forrister 76:2,13 

forth 67:2 

forward 6:5 50:4 

53:13 

found 8:18 23:6 

25:9,14 42:12 

43:11 

founding 46:5 

four 24:10 

fraction 15:20 

fractured 32:14 

fragment 12:11 

26:14,15 27:2 

28:10,11 54:22 

59:1 

fragments 26:8,13 

26:20 27:4 28:14 

28:16 59:3 

framework 59:4 

frank 1:8 2:3 3:2,8 

7:15 13:15,21 

14:3,12,15,22 

16:3,6 17:1,4,8,10 

17:14 18:3,14,16 

18:21 19:11,18 

20:17 21:20,22 

22:11 23:15,20 

24:9 26:2 28:4,19 

29:6,14 31:4,12 

32:9 33:4,7,12,15 

34:5,8 35:3 36:1 

37:5,22 38:3,6,8 

39:9,13,15 40:13 

40:20 41:16,19 

42:3,7,10,14 

43:10 44:5,16,22 

45:8,10,14 46:15 

47:2,11,15 48:18 

50:2,15,20,22 

51:12,21 52:15 

53:5,8,22 54:12 

55:5,7,9,22 56:11 

57:3,7 58:11,19 

59:8 60:7,14 61:8 

61:11 62:1,7,10 

62:16,22 63:20 

64:4,8,12 65:7,21 

66:20 70:11,15,18 

71:3,6,14,20 72:4 

72:16 73:21 74:5 

74:14 

frankly 59:19 

free 21:8 64:20 

65:4 

fridgemous 66:9 

friends 29:22 

f 

face 57:6 

fact 15:8 

factors 16:7 46:11 

fall 67:21 

falls 53:5 

far 8:4 32:16 33:8 

40:22 

faric 63:16 

fast 61:17 

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 

202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[front - hey] Page 7 

front 5:12 24:5 

66:7 

full 45:6 55:14 

fund 47:5 48:3 

funneled 43:14 

further 16:18 

46:10 75:10 

glyphosate 22:6,8 

go 4:3 5:20 9:18 

13:6,7,19 14:16 

15:15 16:1,4 22:7 

23:13,15 26:2 

27:17 30:18 38:19 

40:14 42:3 43:17 

48:7,10 53:13 

59:21 60:2,15,16 

64:1 65:7 67:9 

68:1,17 69:11 

70:19 72:6 73:5 

goal 49:7 

god's 24:9 

goes 46:3 

going 3:4,6 6:5 9:8 

9:9,10 10:18 

11:17,22 12:1,12 

12:12,16,17,18,20 

15:14 18:10 19:20 

19:22 21:5,8 22:5 

23:10 25:15 26:16 

27:6,17 29:11 

30:17 31:14,22 

32:8,12 38:20 

40:6 44:3,13 

45:12,20 46:9 

47:12,14 48:12 

50:7,12 53:9,20 

54:14 55:1 56:16 

56:17 57:9 58:4 

60:15,18 62:22 

63:7 66:8,13,13 

66:14 67:5,9 

68:12,13,16 72:8 

73:2 

gonna 21:6 27:15 

31:6 37:10 56:15 

59:16 64:5 

good 6:6,19 7:1,6 

9:14 10:8,9 15:15 

22:12 24:19 41:7 

41:14 51:5 56:15 

63:9,13 64:7 

66:22 68:18 

googled 38:12 

gotten 55:18 

government 7:2 

grab 21:6 

gram 51:18 52:8 

52:10,18 53:1 

68:22 69:17 70:3 

70:6 72:8 73:16 

73:18 

graph 8:5 10:20 

graphed 13:1 

gravity 69:6 

great 3:14 14:13 

64:15,16 

greater 34:4 40:22 

greg 4:1,11 24:10 

28:7,19 29:4 61:9 

63:21 70:18,19 

greg's 12:9 56:1 

gregory 16:2 28:8 

28:15 29:5,10,15 

41:10,18 53:21 

61:10,17 62:9 

64:2,5,10 65:1,4 

70:20 71:4,12,17 

72:1 

grid 41:1 69:12 

grids 71:8 

groggy 57:15 

ground 6:8 23:8 

group 10:5 37:9 

40:9 47:8 48:3 

67:2 

guess 15:17 23:6 

30:20 40:14 47:3 

55:13 61:3 

guidelines 9:3 

guild 5:9 

gun 59:6 

guy 40:17 

guys 66:6 

h 

habit 8:14 9:5 

hair 73:6 

hallway 4:7 

hammered 60:3,8 

hand 42:11 44:12 

hands 3:18 6:18 

7:1 13:10 19:18 

20:18 24:10 69:4 

hang 14:13 

happen 17:21 

happened 60:10 

happens 20:16,16 

hard 20:8 29:22 

hardware 22:7 

harper 4:7,19 

48:4 

hat 4:6 

hazardous 46:18 

53:18 

haze 72:11,17 

head 54:20 

health 4:2 16:10 

27:3 29:9 

hear 7:9 

heard 3:21 10:3,4 

11:3,12,22 12:5,7 

14:18 39:18 40:11 

48:4 61:3 

hearing 50:12 

61:10,11 

heavy 11:9 30:13 

30:18 

hebital 59:3 

help 3:16 5:6 7:10 

11:18 28:5 

helps 13:8 30:7 

hemp 53:19 

heparins 49:3 

hereto 75:11 

hex 59:3 

hey 8:22 28:20 

32:12 40:5 46:16 

48:11 51:2,5 54:6 

g 

g 3:1 

gallon 32:13 

gary 13:15 22:11 

22:12 33:4,10,17 

33:22 34:3,6,9 

36:16,21 38:2,10 

40:11,14 42:5,9 

42:19 43:5,16,21 

44:15,20 45:6,9 

58:18,21 60:3 

62:11 66:17,19 

69:16,17 70:17 

73:14 74:2 

general 7:18 68:9 

generations 64:21 

genetic 65:9 

geological 9:5 

17:14 

geologies 6:19 

geologist 4:8,8 

geologists 7:7 67:8 

geritol 66:17,19 

getting 21:5 30:6 

48:13 49:12 

give 15:14 33:13 

34:12 49:10,22 

51:17,22 54:20 

63:6 

given 24:9 

gives 30:7 36:6 

52:6 

giving 70:22 

glass 71:8 

gleaned 10:13 

glycerins 49:3 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[high - lab] Page 8 

high 36:9 44:3 

61:18 

higher 35:11 

hill 42:18 

hits 38:12 

hold 36:1 55:9,10 

holding 14:10 

68:5,5 

hominization 7:18 

homogenization 

24:14 

honey 72:1 

hope 3:17,18 

hopes 30:19 

horrible 30:2 

huge 72:9 

huh 39:6 

hundred 34:7 63:7 

i 

inability 45:1 

inaudible 19:3,4 

19:14 23:9 27:8 

37:3 41:13 50:9 

50:11 51:9 58:9 

60:13 61:20 64:1 

65:13,18 66:12 

72:18 73:11 

incapsulating 

22:18 

include 18:15 

including 31:10 

incrementally 

23:1 

indicated 4:7 41:6 

indicator 41:14 

44:2 

individual 42:22 

61:15 

individuals 61:4 

industrial 36:18 

industry 29:19 

38:3 

inflammation 

55:2 

information 10:8 

10:9,13 49:11 

interference 58:10 

interfering 25:22 

intergrown 57:19 

international 3:10 

interpretation 

12:11 

introduce 3:7 

introduced 8:11 

53:14 

invitation 49:21 

involved 7:7 12:21 

21:7 26:7 42:5 

48:10 

iron 30:17 62:6,18 

62:21 63:10,16,19 

64:14,14,20 65:11 

65:14 66:2,3,4,5 

66:14,15 67:15,16 

ironness 30:14 

iso 11:7,8 47:20 

issue 24:13 25:6 

28:10 

issues 25:3 34:16 

47:7 67:21 

items 3:6 7:17 

9:17 

k 

karate 26:3 

keep 3:3 4:3,14 

19:19 20:18 55:17 

57:1 

kevon 1:18 75:2 

75:17 

key 12:4 

kid 26:3 28:9 

kids 7:5 

kind 20:1 27:5 

29:18 33:3 34:5 

49:3,21 50:10 

52:7 

kinks 57:14 

kinky 54:11,12,13 

56:13 57:12,13 

58:6 

knew 41:3 66:6 

know 3:9 4:13,14 

6:17 7:10,12,18 

13:3 16:9,19 

17:18,22 18:2,19 

18:20 19:2,2,3,3,4 

19:15 20:7 23:17 

24:5 25:7 28:1 

29:16 30:6,12,22 

32:5 34:19 36:7 

38:3 40:7,15,17 

40:21 45:3,20,22 

49:11,13 52:12 

53:7 56:13 59:6 

61:4 62:5,7,14 

63:2,2,3,5,6 64:19 

68:3,14 71:8,15 

72:10,11 74:15,18 

knowledge 6:4 

22:17 75:7 

known 41:13 58:4 

ice 71:10,20 

icp 62:3 

icpm 61:21 62:4 

icpms 61:22 62:1 

67:18 

idea 52:6 73:3,9 

identification 8:7 

26:12 j 

identified 8:3 

28:10,13 

identifying 12:3 

ignore 65:11 

ignored 28:11,14 

29:2 

ignoring 74:2 

imagine 31:17 

71:2 

imagines 64:11 

implied 4:17,19 

implies 68:4 

ingredient 25:4,5 

initial 60:4 

initiate 64:16 

initiation 55:2 

inorganic 38:18 

inside 13:22 59:13 

instant 23:13 

insulation 11:10 

intentionally 5:2 

inter 47:21 

interested 75:12 

76:8 

jaglets 66:11 

jersey 3:11 

jifsan 1:2 6:14 

7:12 32:10 54:2 

jim 45:13,21 53:16 

54:8 63:22 64:12 

72:11 

jimmies 17:4,5,8,9 

17:10,12,21 

job 3:15 

johnson 15:9 

60:11 

important 4:14 

7:19 11:22 12:7,8 

16:11 35:20 41:10 

50:1 64:18 67:16 

67:18 71:5 74:4,8 

interesting 3:21 

interestingly 

15:16 

interfere 11:5 

johnson's 15:9 

julie 4:18 9:7 

13:16 74:6 

l 

lab 6:20 7:6 13:11 

18:4 21:9 51:10 

63:5 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[lab's - member] Page 9 

lab's 10:1 limits 44:21 

labels 14:17 15:1 line 55:18 

laboratories 15:8 lip 9:9 

48:14 lips 20:12 

laboratory 3:10 lipstick 19:20 

lubricity 36:8 

lunch 29:21 

lung 4:13 12:10 

26:11 55:3 66:8 

lungs 4:14 

16:13 22:20 23:13 

27:18 30:8,11 

32:14 46:2,8 

50:10,10 52:11 

materials 5:3,4 

20:22 21:3 31:17 

31:19 47:9 68:6 

matrix 9:13 22:3 

22:14 23:7 31:7 

43:19 48:9 52:9 

matt 12:16,16 

matt's 12:15 

matter 29:13 

33:11 

md 1:13 

mean 13:21 22:4 

29:10 31:22 33:2 

33:12 37:1 42:1 

63:3 

meaning 3:18 54:6 

means 13:8 

measure 8:5 10:20 

23:8 45:2 68:16 

measurement 

12:2 71:1 

measurements 

68:20 

measuring 67:14 

67:17 

mechanism 55:14 

medical 6:21 7:8 

meeker 4:1 16:2 

28:8,15 29:5,10 

29:15 41:10,18 

53:21 61:10,17 

62:9 64:2,5,10 

65:1,4 70:20 71:4 

71:12,17 72:1 

meeker's 4:11 

meet 26:21 46:6 

meeting 48:19 

melet 72:11 

member 13:14,20 

14:2 16:4,9 17:2,6 

13:18 25:2 47:21 20:10 33:2 

67:6 liquid 11:9 30:13 

labs 3:11 47:6 30:18 

69:3 list 38:20 

lack 9:14 73:13 listed 15:18 25:5 

lady 60:11 listening 58:14 

landed 71:10,20 litigation 15:1 

large 15:1 46:2,22 little 3:3,20 16:21 

67:21 70:2 73:12 16:22 17:2 32:1 

larger 67:14 35:11 72:14,18 

laughs 5:13 11:18 loading 59:6 

16:1 17:15 20:13 long 17:5 29:10 

28:9 29:5 37:10 32:15 52:9 58:22 

39:3 45:19 47:16 look 9:2,11 22:6 

51:13 52:3 53:20 22:20,22 35:6,7 

54:19 58:20 60:8 38:20 39:2 40:18 

lead 55:3 58:4,5 65:14,20 

leave 54:4 66:8 69:11 74:3 

lee 29:17 45:1 looked 41:4 42:16 

47:8 65:8 70:18 43:7 46:20 64:15 

72:4,7 looking 8:17,21 

left 3:12 32:3 9:13 10:10 13:15 

56:21 71:8 14:4 16:12 22:5 

legal 4:10 29:21 38:19 39:10 

length 68:20 69:2 46:2 57:10 

69:5 looks 57:18 

lethal 55:3 losing 55:19 

letter 47:8 lost 17:5 

letters 48:21 lot 5:15 12:1 15:14 

library 67:19 20:22 28:11,14 

lid 14:21 29:1 30:21 36:16 

liden 36:7 36:17,21 40:11 

light 9:1 10:11 44:4 46:11 47:18 

13:1 41:5 44:19 49:10 56:19,19 

44:21 57:10,21 60:18 

limit 34:11 59:9 63:1 64:20 66:7 

limitation 12:21 66:22 72:17 

limited 39:20 low 72:20 

m 

magic 10:2 

magical 9:21 

magnesium 58:1 

magnification 

44:21 

magnifications 

61:19 

mail 71:15 

main 67:12 

maintaining 5:14 

making 22:15 

30:20 67:17 

man 66:7 

manager 3:13 

manipulated 

52:19 

manufacture 15:2 

15:17 

manufactures 

32:11 

manufacturing 

12:19 

marin 38:9 

mark 19:14 

marky 25:10 

martin 4:7,19 5:12 

14:7,8,13,16 

16:20 38:10 39:2 

39:4,7,14 40:21 

43:2 48:4 54:11 

martin's 16:20 

32:2 59:11 

marty 10:8 54:9 

maryland 75:19 

mass 31:11 52:21 

68:19,21 

material 10:10 

11:1,5 15:12 

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 

202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[member - noted] Page 10 

17:7,9,11,12,13 65:6,6 74:8 

17:17 18:12,15,19 methods 1:6 9:12 

18:22 19:12 20:4 10:7 11:7 13:1,2 

20:14,16,19 21:14 15:21 18:6 29:18 

21:16,18,21 22:2 32:6,17 47:21 

23:17 24:1,2,4 49:5 50:14,14,15 

27:9,15 28:13 51:4 60:4 67:19 

29:17 31:8,21 metric 13:1 

32:20,21 33:18 mica 25:3 

34:12,14,15,18,19 micky 7:20 

34:21 35:1,5,10 micro 45:3,7 

35:11,16,19 36:9 micrographs 40:3 

36:12,14,17,18,22 micrometer 45:22 

37:15,17,19 39:10 micron 51:10 

45:12,18 50:5,19 69:20,21,21 

50:21 51:8,14 microproduction 

52:17 53:7 55:8 21:6 

55:13 56:8,18 microscope 9:1 

57:1,5 61:20 62:4 10:12 

62:14,17 63:2,15 microscopist 

64:13,19 65:3,5 10:12 56:2 

65:13,17 68:18 microscopy 13:1 

73:11 74:7 13:11 30:9 31:14 

members 47:19 41:5 42:16 43:14 

mental 8:14 44:2,19 

mentioned 4:20 miles 26:18 

7:17 9:13 10:20 mill 18:17 

11:13 19:14 38:10 milling 11:2,3 

38:15 50:6 million 52:9 70:8 

mesh 34:7 70:9,16 73:18 

mesothelioma millions 52:22 

26:16,17 55:4 69:22 

61:6 65:10 mind 4:3 70:2,3 

met 35:17 mineral 1:6 5:1 

meter 45:3,7 6:11,12,15 14:18 

method 7:20 15:17 26:10 27:1 

10:22,22 11:8,22 27:13 34:4,6 

12:13,18 18:4 50:17,19,21,22 

26:3 28:20 30:12 53:14,18 54:3,3 

30:22 46:16 49:8 54:14 57:11 66:3 

49:9,19,22 50:7 mineralogical 

51:3,5 54:8 59:9 26:12 33:10 

59:20,22 60:2 minerals 8:2,7 

62:20 63:21 65:2 9:11,16,16 11:14 

11:19 14:18 27:14 

35:9 56:17 57:20 

67:16 

minuses 39:20 

40:5 

minutes 38:10 

missed 74:17 

missing 9:22 

money 59:17 63:1 

monitor 35:5 

monitoring 19:8 

19:12 

monograph 35:6 

49:1 

monographs 37:2 

48:22 

monolayer 10:11 

months 5:19 

morning 3:6,21 

7:17 8:12 10:3,18 

11:13 12:8 16:20 

19:14 

morphology 12:1 

12:3,7 

mother 57:20 

move 7:11 28:3 

50:4 52:14,15 

54:2 65:22 

moved 53:21 

moves 16:17,18 

moving 18:1 19:19 

20:18 

msds 15:16 

mulet 54:10 

multiple 3:18 6:1 

6:2 27:22 37:7 

41:1 60:20 

multitude 32:18 

nanoscience 51:10 

narrow 55:21 

narrower 45:2 

national 10:1 

nationally 3:14 

native 32:6 

natural 5:4 

nature 21:9 57:14 

necessarily 8:15 

52:12 59:1 

necessity 62:18 

need 5:20 9:3 13:7 

19:13 25:16,18 

31:10 32:16 40:8 

49:14 50:3 53:12 

61:15 63:22 65:22 

67:11 73:7,8 

needed 41:16 

needs 5:5 48:9 

neither 75:7 76:6 

neurological 27:2 

never 23:10 30:5 

30:16 

new 3:11 15:2,6 

33:18 49:19 

news 56:15 68:18 

nical 29:21 

night 65:9 

nine 5:19 

niosh 19:10 53:13 

nodules 66:5 

nonasbestiform 

46:8 

noncancerous 

27:11 

nonmicroscope 

10:15 

nonstructural 

70:7 

nonstructures 

69:19 

notary 75:1,18 

noted 24:17 

n 

n 2:1 3:1 

nabes 69:8,9 

nailed 9:8 

named 45:18 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[notes - points] Page 11 

notes 18:9 

notice 6:11 

nuggets 58:12 

number 7:22 

11:11 20:17,19 

25:4 52:18 69:19 

69:22 73:2,3,12 

74:11 

numerator 70:2 

nuts 52:3 

nw 1:21 

69:5 71:1,11,21 

72:4 74:5,14 

old 69:4,8 

oleander 38:18 

once 28:10,13,15 

ones 37:3 51:6 

52:13 

open 13:5 

openings 41:1 

opens 27:21 

opportunity 44:16 

52:1 

opposed 20:3 

optical 45:2,5 

optimal 44:1 

option 61:14 

options 10:20 

order 19:6 40:8 

66:4 

ore 58:5 

oregon 53:21 

organics 38:17 

original 4:21 23:3 

orock 72:22 

osha 26:7,9,19 

outcome 27:9 

62:20 75:12 76:8 

overall 15:12 

overrule 44:14 

overruled 58:19 

park 1:13 

part 5:16 36:3 

47:8 48:20 66:3 

67:17 

participation 3:19 

particle 33:22 

34:7 46:3 53:14 

54:22 59:12 

particles 10:11 

46:11,17,22 53:18 

54:14 58:9 69:19 

70:7 

particular 59:1 

particulars 59:5 

parties 75:9,11 

76:7 

partner 3:12 

parts 70:15,16 

pass 64:5 

pathologists 64:17 

pathway 16:14 

pay 48:14 

peon 59:20 

people 7:7 12:19 

14:4 22:15 28:11 

28:14 30:21 38:22 

60:9 65:22 

percent 12:17 

15:12,19 21:3 

30:4 34:3 35:2,8 

35:12,12,14 

percentage 32:15 

44:3 52:12 

perfectly 42:12 

perked 54:13 

persist 26:18 

person 13:13 

40:16 51:22 63:15 

65:9 

personal 20:14,15 

perspective 4:13 

4:15 18:22 48:19 

70:10 

pf 49:16 

ph 4:18 5:10 13:16 

13:16,16,16,18 

15:13 17:4 19:21 

25:1,10 36:7 45:1 

63:16 64:15 66:9 

66:11,16 68:17 

72:22 

pharmaceutical 

35:14 

phase 19:16 49:4 

physical 33:10 

34:2 35:16 

pick 19:9 40:16 

62:20 

piece 25:8 48:6 

pine 32:15 

place 6:6 14:13 

24:22 

placed 34:6 66:5 

platy 34:8 35:22 

36:4 59:2 

plausible 25:7 

play 46:12 

playtiness 36:6 

please 9:1 35:4 

39:5 

plm 30:6 40:3,16 

41:12 42:2 43:8,8 

45:20,21 46:22 

48:8 

plus 72:10 

pluses 39:19 40:5 

pm 46:5 

po 60:19 

point 3:17 14:6,20 

16:15 22:10,12 

28:2 30:5,20 48:8 

55:13 56:2 61:2 

68:15 

pointed 42:19 

62:18 

points 3:20 58:12 

67:12 

o 

o 3:1 

objective 6:13 

observable 52:11 

observation 14:8 

observe 68:16 

observing 70:5 

obstacles 51:1 

obviously 6:3,10 

7:5 27:12 36:6 

72:18 

occasion 41:11 

occurrence 5:4 

odd 59:11 

officer 75:2 

official 37:14 

officially 46:18 

oh 12:14 15:13 

28:17 38:5 

oj 64:3,4,11 67:4 

okay 6:19,20 7:1,4 

7:15,22 12:7 14:3 

18:14 20:17 22:11 

23:17 24:7,18 

26:5 32:11 33:7 

35:15 36:1 37:7 

37:18,19 39:9 

41:19 44:5 45:9 

45:10,14 46:15 

47:2,3,11 50:2 

51:12,18 53:5,12 

55:5,16 56:12,18 

59:12 60:14 62:16 

p 

p 2:1,1 3:1 

p.m. 1:9 

pail 32:13 

pain 10:4 

panel 44:17 49:8 

49:10,17 

panels 47:18 

pantheon 61:12 

parallel 59:3 

pardon 49:13 

parent 57:17,18 

parity 72:22 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[poison - quote] Page 12 

poison 22:3 

polarized 44:19 

popular 5:20,20 

population 7:7 

15:6 28:16 30:7,8 

30:10 46:3,10 

47:1 74:3 

populations 5:6 

59:12 

portion 15:5 

positive 44:12 

possibilities 51:7 

possible 4:1 16:13 

42:16 43:13 55:15 

55:18,20 60:21 

68:14 

possibly 30:10 

52:22 62:1 70:4 

potential 18:11 

22:19 41:8 

potentially 11:20 

25:20 31:11 52:6 

potluck 59:20 

powder 8:18 9:10 

19:21 20:21 33:2 

38:15 

powders 50:19,21 

50:22 

power 14:18 

powerpoint 60:4 

practical 5:8 8:16 

precision 47:22 

predisposed 65:10 

predisposition 

65:9 

preferable 41:22 

prep 7:18 10:20 

10:22 11:11 16:7 

18:10 24:14 39:19 

51:3 58:16 68:9 

73:17 

preparation 16:5 

23:2 50:9 

prepared 76:3 

prepped 7:21 

preps 30:11 

present 8:2 51:19 

53:16 62:19 

presentation 15:9 

56:1 

presented 69:18 

preserve 39:22 

presumably 16:9 

pretty 59:15 

price 47:22 

primarily 6:20 

primary 64:16 

prior 24:6 

prismatic 12:10 

probably 29:1,11 

33:19 35:12 36:18 

37:22 

problem 5:11,22 

22:4,6,19 23:3,18 

23:21 24:1,5 

28:17 56:14 

problematic 8:8 

61:7 

problematical 

38:19 

problems 5:7 6:3 

8:10 24:20 52:4 

73:16 

proceeding 75:3 

proceedings 75:4 

75:6 

process 21:5 22:14 

22:16 41:21,22 

44:8 

produce 11:4 

66:14 

produced 58:13 

producer's 24:5 

producers 9:18 

product 15:3 20:3 

22:5,17 23:11 

24:7,20 25:21 

38:11 40:1 50:13 

51:18 52:7 56:19 

production 8:5 

10:21 31:11 

products 9:12 

33:2,3 56:20 

professionals 

12:19 63:5 

progress 49:11 

projects 3:13 

promote 47:16 

68:9 

proper 74:1 

properly 8:6 

properties 26:22 

27:1 35:20 45:2,5 

property 11:16 

proposal 49:12,15 

49:18 

proposed 49:22 

protect 4:1 27:10 

27:13 29:8 

protects 43:12 

protocol 6:15 46:6 

46:7 47:6 

protolite 57:22 

provide 32:13 

provider 23:13 

providing 31:15 

pseudomorphate 

57:16 

public 4:2 29:8 

75:1,18 

pun 49:14 

purchased 19:20 

pure 22:5 33:21 

purity 33:15 

purposed 7:20 

53:16 

purposes 37:13 

purposing 18:5 

purview 49:6 

push 30:12 

put 3:3,16 4:12,22 

38:21,22 46:21 

47:5 48:19 49:4 

49:15,20 53:15 

56:3 57:5 67:2,4 

68:22 69:12 70:12 

72:1 73:16 

putting 13:22 

49:18 50:1 58:8 

73:22 

q 

qmi 19:2 

qualify 32:5 36:5 

qualitative 50:16 

53:10 

qualitive 51:20 

quality 33:20 

36:10 49:6 

quandary 67:5 

quantification 

52:10 

quantify 65:11 

quantitated 51:15 

62:4 

quantitative 12:17 

50:14,17 51:16 

53:10 

quantitive 51:20 

question 25:12 

26:18 32:22 33:6 

33:13 36:2 37:10 

41:21 42:20 44:12 

47:3,4,10 50:3 

62:17 64:14 

questions 7:11 

32:21 45:6 

quick 39:2 50:6 

52:16,17 62:17 

quickly 21:18,21 

quite 36:4 52:18 

59:19 

quote 23:9 29:7 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[r - sample] Page 13 

r recovery 32:17 

red 56:13 

reduced 75:5 

reduction 13:2 

23:8 

redundant 62:2 

reference 9:15 

31:18 34:13 48:13 

54:9 68:6,6 

reflection 20:15 

regarding 9:9 

regardless 9:4 

registry 26:9 

regular 25:15 

regulate 26:19 

regulating 4:2 7:3 

29:9 

regulations 26:7 

regulators 7:2,8 

12:20 

reiterate 3:22 31:4 

related 6:21 47:17 

75:8 76:6 

relative 70:12 

75:10 

releasable 25:19 

25:20 

release 23:7 73:2 

remember 13:22 

23:3 45:16 72:21 

remove 8:6 

rendition 19:15 

repeatability 48:1 

reproducible 

27:19 

request 48:21 

require 47:21 

resolution 43:8 

resolved 44:18 

respects 35:20 

respirable 27:7 

55:9 

respond 21:19 

22:2 

response 27:8 

64:17 66:11 

respro 55:12 

rest 4:4 35:8 

result 53:11 

results 71:11 

retail 55:16 56:20 

retiring 32:1 

reviewed 53:4 

revise 18:7 

revised 5:20 

revision 49:15 

ribbon 54:7 57:13 

ribbons 56:13 

rid 21:2,5 25:22 

right 9:2 12:15 

17:6 18:8,9 22:6 

24:2,16,22 28:19 

30:12 31:9 32:20 

35:18 37:6 40:13 

40:20 42:13,14 

43:1,21 45:9,12 

road 48:11 56:12 

roadmap 53:13 

robert 26:5,6 

27:12 43:19 60:16 

robert's 45:4 

robin 1:8 2:4 3:12 

3:13,16 7:14 

12:15 37:12,16,18 

38:5,7 39:1,6 

58:13 60:16,20 

63:18 70:14 71:19 

71:22 74:18 

robin's 18:9 37:10 

rock 54:21 57:1 

rocks 22:22 

role 7:3 

room 5:11 42:15 

43:12 

roster 5:18 

rough4 72:19 

routinely 31:17 

rozinski 13:18 

rti 32:12,12 48:10 

rubbed 25:14 

rules 6:8 

run 8:15 30:1,5 

71:6 

running 41:22 

rutstein 14:8,13 

14:16 38:10 39:2 

39:4,7,14 43:2 

54:11 

r 2:1 3:1 

radicals 65:4 

ranging 35:7 

rapid 31:11 

rarely 25:4,6 

ratio 12:6 55:11 

ratios 69:1 

rats 13:11 

raw 11:1 23:13 

50:10 

ray 1:8 2:4 3:13 

7:14 12:15 37:12 

37:16,18 38:5,7 

39:1,6 60:20 

63:18 70:14 71:19 

71:22 

reactive 64:21 

read 8:12 14:17 

26:8 

reading 14:22 

41:7 

real 52:16 67:13 

realize 29:20 52:4 

53:19 55:1 

really 7:5 16:19 

18:1 20:6 25:15 

27:4 28:1 31:1 

39:7 60:11 63:13 

64:18 70:6 71:5 

72:12 74:8 

realm 16:15 

reasons 19:1 44:9 s 

recall 49:1 

receipt 37:9 

recommend 62:9 

71:13 

record 68:16 69:5 

75:6 

recorded 53:6 

75:4 

recording 11:21 

55:17,20 

replace 49:8 

replaced 23:10 

report 53:4,9 

59:12 68:21,22 

72:15 

reported 1:18 

reporting 1:20 

55:14 72:8 

represented 70:7 

reproducibility 

48:1 

51:21 53:8 54:3 

55:7 57:12,15 

59:8,17 60:2 

61:17 62:10 64:9 

66:13 68:15,17 

69:4,9,13 70:17 

71:1 73:8 

risk 67:7 72:13 

rj 12:14 47:8 

ro1g 72:2 

s 2:1 3:1 10:7 

safe 26:21 59:19 

safety 49:7 

sample 7:22 16:16 

17:19 19:6,9,16 

20:2,7,11,12 21:1 

21:6,13 40:17 

43:7 46:1,4 50:9 

56:3 58:15 60:17 

60:18 63:6 69:12 

73:17 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[samples - spider] Page 14 

samples 20:20 

25:14 65:16 

sampling 43:22 

51:10 

sat 23:4 

saved 4:18 

saw 4:7 16:19 30:5 

40:2,3 42:21 

46:22 53:2,3 

saying 18:8 22:16 

24:8 31:21 40:7 

40:15 43:4,5,11 

51:2 53:3 73:1 

says 4:9 28:15 

32:2 63:9 70:3 

scale 69:13 

scanning 64:11 

scans 63:11 

scares 32:2 

schematic 60:12 

school 15:15 

science 26:10 

27:13 68:15 

scope 49:9 56:5 

seat 4:18 

seatown 34:15 

second 24:11 

section 46:16 

see 3:2,18 10:9,16 

11:15 13:12 19:18 

20:4 25:3,4 26:22 

42:17 43:8 44:1,4 

45:3,7 46:3,6,21 

53:1 57:21,22 

58:3,5,6,7,9 61:22 

66:8 69:1 70:1,2 

70:22 71:1,5 

74:19 

seeder 48:20 

seeing 46:14 73:17 

73:19 

seen 21:2 56:20 

60:7 

sees 26:11 

segment 61:9 

segregate 5:6 8:1 

segregation 11:2 

segregator 11:16 

segway 24:19,20 

selling 11:17 

sem 10:13 40:3 

50:8 51:15 61:10 

61:11,17 64:8,9 

67:4 

sending 5:17 

71:14 

sense 4:21 23:12 

26:1 46:13 

sensitivities 30:3 

separate 11:19 

24:17 27:1 

separation 11:6,9 

11:12 21:16 30:13 

30:18 

sephora 14:10 

sepiolite 58:3,3,7 

series 55:2 

serpentine 57:22 

57:22 

service 34:5 

services 31:15 

session 1:5 6:9 

12:1 69:16 74:16 

74:19 

sessions 4:4 

set 67:18 

seven 72:10 

severity 73:4 

shaming 39:4 

shape 29:12 

share 9:19 

shared 15:9 

shawn 13:16 

14:10 23:18,20 

24:11,18,19 26:4 

33:4,5,8,11,13 

42:10,11,12,15 

43:4,10,11 52:2,3 

54:17,21 55:6,11 

57:8,10 60:3,7 

64:7 65:21 66:2 

66:13,18 70:19 

72:4,5,6,16,17 

73:13 

shoot 15:16 

short 4:12 6:8 

15:22 

show 6:18 7:1 

15:11 19:18 30:9 

69:3 

showed 16:21 

shown 29:15 

shows 27:8 

side 4:5 6:22 7:8 

12:21 24:12 27:10 

27:11 32:19 59:19 

sides 27:22 

sieving 11:1 

signature 75:16 

76:12 

silica 66:15 

similar 16:16 

similarly 52:14 

simple 23:2 30:21 

simulate 19:13 

20:10 28:1 

single 43:22 

sir 31:20 

site 66:16 

sitting 54:18 

situations 19:7 

20:5 

size 11:2 29:12 

32:17 33:22 34:7 

56:9 71:2 

skills 75:7 

skipped 60:4 

slide 8:13 10:11 

12:9 13:4,8 16:5 

54:3 

slides 68:1 

slight 72:20 

slightly 50:3 52:16 

53:17 

small 15:5 48:6 

67:13 

smart 14:21 

sniff 8:22 

snitch 61:4 

snob 29:19 51:13 

solicitation 47:6 

solve 47:9 

solvent 11:12 

somebody 8:20 

9:21 32:10 42:10 

54:9,13 

somebody's 59:10 

sonication 21:7 

sop 18:4 28:20 

59:9 73:13,15 

sorry 29:12 50:22 

69:15 

sort 9:3,21 12:10 

13:5 17:17 28:5 

47:16 52:6 63:9 

64:21 73:3,9 

source 4:6 

south 32:4 

space 52:14 

spare 3:9 

speaking 14:22 

special 3:13 

species 30:14 

64:21 

specific 23:11 31:7 

47:13 48:22 49:5 

50:7 69:6 

specifically 73:1 

spectra 40:4 63:8 

spectroscopy 67:4 

spends 65:15 

spent 72:11 

spider 32:14 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[spike - tend] Page 15 

spike 70:21 72:11,17 

spot 15:19 steve's 59:16 

sprayed 11:10 stick 9:9 56:16 

srd 13:12 store 22:7 

sri 48:12 story 73:22 

srm2063 71:6 straight 20:21 

stakeholders stream 34:5 

49:15,22 street 1:21 

stamp 10:21 strengthen 48:21 

stand 32:7 structural 51:16 

standalone 61:15 59:4 

standard 26:14 structure 10:17 

33:19 35:12 37:14 52:21 53:2 63:12 

74:11 63:13 68:21 70:5 

standardization 72:9 73:15,17,19 

73:15 structure's 69:17 

standards 9:15 structures 8:18 

26:22 32:3,5 23:9 25:20 40:22 

33:19 68:6 70:20 41:8 42:17 43:14 

70:22 74:10,12 52:8,9,11,18 53:1 

standing 60:12 63:7 70:4,5 73:3,9 

64:22 73:18 

start 3:20 6:7 42:3 stuart 45:1 

44:8 46:13 48:5 students 14:4 

48:13 54:20 58:8 studies 22:22 

59:5 74:16 32:16 

started 14:11 study 15:10 23:4 

65:22 47:21 48:3,9,11 

starting 14:16,20 stuff 8:22 9:2 

27:18 28:2 74:16 38:21,22 39:7 

state 75:19 40:21 42:18 56:21 

statement 54:17 57:2,13 66:22 

68:9 stuff's 29:1 

stay 5:19 subcommittee 

step 27:20 55:15 5:17 

steps 7:19 50:9 subcommittee's 

55:3 6:5 

stereomicroscope submit 19:19 

10:10 submitted 48:20 

steve 5:10,11,14 successfully 72:12 

19:21,22 34:2 suffice 25:15 

35:15,18 36:8 suggest 38:19 

37:20 43:22 44:6 suite 1:21 10:6 

44:7 59:16 61:2 51:3 

sum 57:9 

summarize 58:13 

70:11 

sun 14:19 

supply 49:2 

sure 8:9 11:5 14:2 

14:21 18:7 37:6 

37:17 51:4 54:1 

67:1,14,17 

surface 17:22 64:2 

surfaced 62:21 

survey 5:18 

surveys 5:18 

suspect 24:21 

symposium 1:2 

synchrotron 10:1 

talk 3:5 4:11 8:14 

12:5 32:2 40:2,15 

54:15 64:17 

talked 8:8 68:2,2,7 

talking 12:2 22:19 

27:21 33:3 36:13 

44:8,9 56:1 65:8 

67:22 70:21 

talks 62:18 

target 55:6 

task 21:9 

technical 17:13 

technically 58:2 

technique 9:21 

10:15 17:19 24:17 

39:17 40:8,9 47:5 

47:13 59:15 60:21 

60:22 61:13 64:9 

74:3 

techniques 8:11 

24:14 40:10 42:1 

65:19 67:3 68:9 

68:11 

technologies 8:11 

15:21 24:13 39:18 

40:10 61:12 

technology 40:2 

tell 5:14 21:10 

51:19 59:21 63:10 

67:22 

telling 73:21 

tells 30:4 

tem 10:14 13:1 

29:19 40:4,17,18 

40:21 41:8,12,16 

42:1,20,21 43:7 

44:3,9 47:7 48:9 

59:16,21 62:3 

68:19 69:3,3 

tem's 29:19 

temeds 71:7 

ten 53:15 

tend 9:10 

t 

t 10:7 

take 11:20 15:13 

50:2 51:18 59:2 

59:14 62:5 63:7 

63:11 

taken 5:15 75:3,9 

takes 31:2 32:6 

70:3 

talc 1:3,6 6:10,10 

6:16 7:21 14:9 

23:14 24:22 25:5 

25:7,9 30:13 31:2 

33:1 34:4,4,6,8,10 

34:17 35:8,14 

36:10 37:3,4,14 

37:21 43:19 48:13 

48:22 49:9 50:17 

51:18 52:7,19 

54:7,11,12 56:13 

56:16 57:4,4,7,8 

57:11,11,15,16 

58:5,5,6 59:2 68:3 

68:3 69:20 70:21 

73:8 

talcs 58:3 

talcum 20:21 

38:15 

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202-857-3376 
Breakout Session November 28, 2018 

[term - verifiable] Page 16 

term 17:14 thinner 41:18 toxicological 6:22 

terminology 5:9 thought 3:4,21 6:6 toxicologist 16:11 

5:22 23:10 29:4 36:14 19:1 20:9 32:1 

terms 6:9 19:4 45:16 48:5 

49:11,18 thoughts 40:9 toxicology 49:7 

terribly 59:22 thousands 25:1 64:19 

test 1:6 25:13 65:15 70:4 traffic 3:18 

44:13 50:7 73:6 three 5:18 24:9 training 8:21 9:1 

tested 15:3 40:9 42:9 67:12 transcriber 76:1 

testing 3:11 25:1,8 threw 9:20 transcript 76:3 

thank 7:15 37:8 throw 69:10 transition 23:9 

52:3 74:14,18,18 thrown 69:6 translate 52:21 

theme 50:3 52:16 tile 15:2 31:13,13 tree 30:19 42:5 

53:13 tiles 15:7,15 44:7 

thin 29:11 56:8 time 3:9 4:6 5:15 tremolite 8:18 

thing 5:8,16 14:9 25:16 29:22 33:20 15:3,4,5,6,7,12,19 

17:18 25:18,21 34:20 36:2 37:6 15:20 25:11 30:1 

27:17 30:22 32:1 39:17 44:5 49:1 30:4,14 32:15 

41:6 45:13 57:8 55:19,21 56:5 42:13 43:12 52:20 

57:21 58:8 61:2 58:3,22 59:17 55:17 57:17,19 

66:2 69:9 70:12 74:15 tried 12:22 27:4 

73:7 74:7,12 times 8:5,15 9:14 60:21 71:10 

things 4:12,15 7:1 11:13 21:7 true 12:22 54:1 

7:16 11:9 12:21 tiniest 52:22 65:19 75:6 

18:3 23:2,12 tissue 66:8 try 8:1 21:8 42:21 

31:10 38:11,13,13 tlm 42:3 46:9,10 55:21 57:9 60:17 

39:16 47:20 52:22 tm 46:12,21 50:8 trying 8:3 22:10 

71:4 51:15 70:5 27:10,12 37:6 

think 4:14,16 6:8 today 3:12,17 4:6 45:16 67:1 

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