EXHIBIT 84 

FILED UNDER SEAL 

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 1 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3 SAN FRANCISCO DIVISION

4 _____________________________

5 WAYMO LLC, )

6 Plaintiff, )

7 vs. )Case No.:

8 UBER TECHNOLOGIES, INC., )3:17-cv-00939-WHA

9 OTTOMOTTO LLC; OTTO TRUCKING )

10 LLC, )

11 Defendants. )

12 _____________________________)

13

14 CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

15

16 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL LEBBY

17 San Francisco, California

18 Monday, April 17, 2017

19 Volume 1

20

21 Reported by:

22 RACHEL FERRIER, CSR No. 6948

23 Job No. 2596388

24

25 PAGES 1 - 80

Page 1

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 2 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 2

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3 SAN FRANCISCO DIVISION

4 _____________________________

5 WAYMO LLC, )

6 Plaintiff, )

7 vs. )Case No.:

8 UBER TECHNOLOGIES, INC., )3:17-cv-00939-WHA

9 OTTOMOTTO LLC; OTTO TRUCKING )

10 LLC, )

11 Defendants. )

12 _____________________________)

13

14

15

16 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL LEBBY,

17 VOLUME 1, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff, at

18 Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan, LLP, 50 California

19 Street, 22nd Floor, San Francisco, California, beginning

20 at 1:03 p.m. and ending at 3:12 p.m. on Monday,

21 April 17, 2017, before RACHEL FERRIER, Certified

22 Shorthand Reporter No. 6948.

23

24

25

Page 3

1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 For Plaintiff:

4 QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN LLP

5 BY: JARED NEWTON

6 Attorney at Law

7 777 6th Street NW, 11th Floor

8 Washington, D.C. 20001

9 202.538.800

10 jnewton@quinnemanuel.com

11 and

12 QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN LLP

13 BY: DAVID PERLSON

14 Attorney at Law

15 50 California Street, 22nd Floor

16 San Francisco, California 94111

17 415.875.6600

18 davidperlson@quinnemanuel.com

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4

1 APPEARANCES (continued):

2

3 For Defendants:

4 MORRISON & FOERSTER, LLP

5 BY: DANIEL MUINO

6 Attorney at Law

7 2000 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Suite 6000

8 Washington, D.C. 20006

9 202.887.1501

10 dmuino@mofo.com

11

12

13 Also Present:

14 MICHAEL FOOR, Videographer

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5

1 INDEX

2

3 WITNESS EXAMINATION

4 MICHAEL LEBBY

5 VOLUME 1

6 BY MR. NEWTON 7

7

8

9 EXHIBITS

10 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE

11

Exhibit 30 Declaration of Michael

12 Lebby 8

13 Exhibit 31 Dr. Lebby's Curriculum

14 Vitae 8

15 Exhibit 32 List of Materials Considered 8

16 Exhibit 33 Excerpt of the textbook

17 "Packaging of High Power

 Semiconductor Lasers" 51

18 Exhibit 34 Excerpts from the

19 Dissertation of Christian

20 Sholz 57

21 Exhibit 35 U.S. Patent No. 4,244,109 67

22 Exhibit 36 German Patent No. DE 3031103 70

23 Exhibit 37 U.S. Patent No. 4,432,037 74

24

25

2 (Pages 2 - 5)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 3 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 34

1 A That is correct. 01:44:38

2 Q So that's not something you considered as part of 01:44:39

3 your declaration? 01:44:44

4 A That is correct. I did not consider that. 01:44:45

5 Q Turning to paragraph 30 of your declaration, 01:44:47

6 Exhibit 30, here your declaration is discussing -- 01:45:03

7 discussing Waymo trade secrets that you characterize as 01:45:16

8 the "six-board arrangement"; is that fair? 01:45:19

9 A Yeah, in line 13, I characterize Way's -- Waymo's 01:45:21

10 system as Yes, that's 01:45:27

11 correct. 01:45:30

12 Q You understand that what you have characterized 01:45:30

13 as covers two distinct trade 01:45:32

14 secrets from Waymo's trade secret list; correct? 01:45:35

15 A I've written on line 10, that covers created 01:45:38

16 Secrets No. 2 and 3. 01:45:42

17 I believe that's the one you are talking about; 01:45:49

18 right? 01:45:52

19 Q Correct. 01:45:52

20 Is it your opinion that both Trade Secret Nos. 2 01:45:54

21 and 3 are directed to 01:45:56

22 01:45:59

23 01:46:02

24 01:46:06

25 A I don't recall exactly what's written in the 01:46:07

Page 35

1 Trade Secrets 2 or 3, but given that I've written it 01:46:09

2 down in my declaration, that's my understanding. 01:46:13

3 Q You agree that the Fuji device has 64 laser 01:46:15

4 diodes on transmit boards; is that fair? 01:46:29

5 A The Fuji device is a different device. It has 01:46:33

6 boards per cavity. It has two cavities. So the 01:46:37

7 Fuji device is -- is different compared to the Waymo 01:46:41

8 device. Fuji is 01:46:45

9 composed of two cavities, each cavity having 01:46:49

10 boards. 01:46:53

11 Q Looking at the Fuji device overall, you agree 01:46:53

12 there's transmit boards? 01:46:56

13 A The Fuji device has boards for medium-range 01:47:02

14 cavity and boards for a long-range cavity. If you 01:47:09

15 want to sum the number of boards together, there are 01:47:12

16 boards, but there are two cavities and has two different 01:47:16

17 designs, and each cavity has boards, so the way I 01:47:21

18 look at this is boards per cavity. 01:47:24

19 Q Each of those boards has laser 01:47:27

20 diodes; correct, in the Fuji device? 01:47:35

21 A The Fuji device, if you are talking about one 01:47:37

22 cavity, one cavity -- let's take the medium-range cavity 01:47:43

23 has boards. On the boards, we have a total 01:47:48

24 of lasers. 01:47:50

25 My understanding is the lasers are distributed in 01:47:52

Page 36

1 a fashion where there is of the boards 01:47:56

2 and of the boards. 01:47:59

3 Q And that's the same for each cavity; correct? 01:48:02

4 A Yes. So for the long-range cavity, a similar 01:48:07

5 situation occurs where there are lasers, and the 01:48:10

6 lasers are distributed. 01:48:14

7 I believe, in this case, 01:48:18

8 if I 01:48:22

9 remember correctly. 01:48:27

10 Q So, again, the Fuji device, overall, total 01:48:27

11 lasers? 01:48:31

12 A If you add the two cavities together, lasers 01:48:32

13 per cavity, the Fuji device has lasers. 01:48:38

14 Q You agree the design files for the transmit 01:48:42

15 boards in the Fuji system are labeled 01:48:51

16 correct? 01:48:53

17 A Yeah. 01:48:53

18 If you take the medium-range cavity, you will 01:48:57

19 find that the -- the boards -- and I'm looking at 01:49:00

20 page 7, paragraph 25 of my declaration. You will see 01:49:04

21 boards labeled for the medium-range cavity, 01:49:08

22 and they are labeled for the long-range 01:49:11

23 cavity. 01:49:14

24 Q They are not labeled and then 01:49:14

25 again; correct? 01:49:18

Page 37

1 A They are labeled for medium range and 01:49:19

2 for long-range. 01:49:23

3 Q Okay. Other than the Fuji device, is the only 01:49:23

4 other LiDAR device that you considered in connection 01:49:32

5 with your declaration -- strike that. 01:49:35

6 Other than the Fuji device, is the only other 01:49:39

7 LiDAR device with that 01:49:42

8 you considered in connection with your declaration the 01:49:51

9 Waymo GBR3 device? 01:49:53

10 MR. MUINO: Objection to the form of the 01:50:04

11 question. 01:50:05

12 THE WITNESS: Could you restate the question a 01:50:06

13 different way? 01:50:08

14 MR. NEWTON: Sure. 01:50:09

15 Q Other than GBR3 and the Fuji device, your 01:50:09

16 declaration does not identify any other LiDAR systems 01:50:12

17 that 01:50:14

18 01:50:19

19 A I believe the answer is correct. I didn't see 01:50:20

20 other -channel units that had 01:50:22

21 . 01:50:28

22 Q If you look at paragraph 31, the Velodyne HDL 64 01:50:32

23 LiDAR system, this is one of the ones you considered as 01:50:37

24 part of your declaration? 01:50:40

25 A It is my understanding that the Velodyne has 64 01:50:41

10 (Pages 34 - 37)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 4 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 38

1 channels -- or let's say it's 64 lasers. 01:50:52

2 Q And in the Velodyne system, each of those 64 01:50:58

3 lasers is on its own transmit PCB; is that correct? 01:51:04

4 A I don't know the actual layout of the Velodyne 01:51:07

5 system other than what I've seen in the '190 patent, 01:51:11

6 which is the Velodyne patent, and -- in the '190 patent, 01:51:15

7 there are 32 transmit boards and 32 receive boards. The 01:51:19

8 patent discusses one laser per board, but it also 01:51:27

9 discusses a potential for two lasers per board, so I 01:51:30

10 don't know if the '190 patent is related to the HDL 64 01:51:33

11 or not. 01:51:37

12 Q Okay. Fair enough. 01:51:37

13 You agree that one possible arrangement of the 01:51:41

14 LiDAR device with 64 lasers is one laser per board? 01:51:44

15 A Yeah. Hypothetically, yes, you could have 64 01:51:48

16 lasers, each having one laser per board. Yes, that is 01:51:51

17 one hypothetical situation. 01:51:56

18 Q And another one would be 21 or 22 laser diodes on 01:51:58

19 three boards? 01:52:03

20 A Yeah. That is another configuration that is 01:52:04

21 possible too, yes. 01:52:15

22 Q Another configuration is 16 laser diodes on four 01:52:16

23 boards? 01:52:21

24 A Yeah. There is -- there are a number of 01:52:24

25 different ways you can break up 64 lasers. As you say, 01:52:30

Page 39

1 you could have 64 lasers on 64 boards at one extreme, 01:52:35

2 and the other extreme, you could have one board with 64 01:52:39

3 lasers on it. 01:52:42

4 Both of those situations are, from my standpoint, 01:52:43

5 problematic from an engineering perspective, and there 01:52:49

6 are certainly other configurations that you just 01:52:52

7 mentioned. 01:52:55

8 Q Would you agree that an eight-by-eight 01:52:55

9 arrangement would be less problematic from an 01:52:57

10 engineering standpoint? 01:53:00

11 A I haven't seen all the engineering parameters. 01:53:01

12 You know, when you are designing an engineering 01:53:08

13 system, it's not just the number of boards or the optics 01:53:10

14 or the lasers or the photodetectors. You have to look 01:53:13

15 at the cost of the unit, and you have to look at the 01:53:16

16 size considerations, and you also have to look at things 01:53:18

17 like thermal loaded, as well as yield of the lasers once 01:53:22

18 you put them down onto the boards. 01:53:28

19 These engineering considerations have to be taken 01:53:30

20 into effect, and I don't believe I've been exposed to 01:53:33

21 all those details at this time. 01:53:36

22 Q Okay. In paragraph 32 of your declaration, you 01:53:39

23 say: Once Waymo had decided to develop a 64-laser 01:53:44

24 LiDAR, its range of choices for how many transmit PCBs 01:53:49

25 to use and how to distribute the laser diodes across the 01:53:53

Page 40

1 PCBs was limited by well-known design considerations for 01:53:59

2 automotive LiDARs. 01:54:00

3 Do you see that? 01:54:01

4 A I do see that. 01:54:02

5 Q Do you know when Waymo first decided to develop a 01:54:03

6 64-laser LiDAR system? 01:54:07

7 A It may have been in some of the documents I've 01:54:08

8 read, but I don't recall any dates to give you an answer 01:54:27

9 to that question. 01:54:30

10 Q Does sound approximately right? 01:54:31

11 A I probably need to look at the documents. I 01:54:35

12 don't recall that level of detail. 01:54:40

13 Q Okay. So assuming it would be , what 01:54:41

14 I want to get at is that your declaration mentions 01:54:49

15 this -- this point where Waymo had decided to develop a 01:54:52

16 64-laser LiDAR; is that correct? 01:54:55

17 A I certainly mentioned, on line 24 on page 8, that 01:54:57

18 Waymo decided to develop a 64-laser LiDAR, yes. 01:55:04

19 Q Okay. And regardless of whether that was 01:55:07

20 or another time, your declaration doesn't cite any 01:55:12

21 independent evidence to show that there were well-known 01:55:16

22 design considerations for automotive LiDARs at that 01:55:18

23 time; is that fair? 01:55:21

24 A Well, considerations for LiDARs are -- as far as 01:55:23

25 I can tell, from reading the documents I've seen, you 01:55:33

Page 41

1 know, one of the industry-leading LiDARs at the time was 01:55:38

2 the Velodyne, and the Velodyne, as we said earlier, had 01:55:40

3 one laser per board. The '190 patent shows 32 boards on 01:55:44

4 one side for the laser and 32 boards on the other side 01:55:50

5 for the photodetector. It's my understanding that the 01:55:53

6 alignment of the boards was actually difficult and 01:55:55

7 time-consuming. 01:55:59

8 And so I don't know the details of the design 01:56:00

9 team's work here, but certainly from my perspective, you 01:56:05

10 would want to look for easier ways to align the 01:56:09

11 channels. 01:56:12

12 Q Okay. And you didn't cite the Velodyne patent as 01:56:13

13 a specific example of a well-known design consideration 01:56:20

14 for automotive LiDAR? 01:56:24

15 A It's not cited in paragraph 32, but I believe it 01:56:25

16 may be cited elsewhere. I've actually cited it in 01:56:29

17 paragraph 38. So the patent has been cited in my 01:56:41

18 declaration. 01:56:47

19 Q Right. 01:56:47

20 But not cited to say that here's an example of a 01:56:48

21 well-known design consideration for automotive LiDARs; 01:56:53

22 is that fair? 01:56:57

23 A Yeah, I think that's probably a fair comment, 01:56:58

24 looking at what I've written in paragraph 32. I do not 01:57:14

25 go into details about well-known design considerations 01:57:22

11 (Pages 38 - 41)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 5 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 46

1 not be ideal for automotive LiDARs due to size 02:05:07

2 considerations; correct? 02:05:11

3 A Size considerations is one of the issues if you 02:05:11

4 had 64 lasers on a board, but the other thing you would 02:05:16

5 have to be careful of is these laser are high-power 02:05:21

6 lasers, and so there's going to be thermal effects, and 02:05:25

7 the thermal effects will translate into board warpage, 02:05:28

8 and if the board warps, then everything goes out of 02:05:33

9 alignment, so not only is it a size issue, it's a 02:05:36

10 thermal issue and, I would say, may even be a 02:05:38

11 manufacturing yield issue, because you are going to get 02:05:41

12 64 lasers dye bonded to the board all perfectly, and 02:05:45

13 there is, you know, reasonable chance that one of them 02:05:49

14 may not yield right, and that would add cost to the 02:05:51

15 board for rework. 02:05:55

16 Q Okay. So focusing just on size -- and that's 02:05:56

17 what I believe paragraph 33 of your declaration 02:06:10

18 addresses; right? I know you go on to mention thermal 02:06:14

19 considerations, but just looking at 33, you are talking 02:06:18

20 about size? 02:06:20

21 A Yes -- well, I discuss in paragraph 33 -- size is 02:06:20

22 certainly one of the parameters that has to be taken 02:06:29

23 into account to design, let's call it, efficient LiDAR 02:06:31

24 systems. 02:06:37

25 Q You say that use of larger PCB with numerous 02:06:38

Page 47

1 laser diodes would necessitate a larger LiDAR housing; 02:06:40

2 is that right? 02:06:44

3 A Well, yes, if you had larger boards, then the 02:06:44

4 housing most likely would have to be bigger, but I can't 02:06:48

5 comment on that because I haven't really designed the 02:06:56

6 housing, and maybe there's some innovative way to -- 02:06:58

7 to -- to deal with larger boards, but, generally 02:07:02

8 speaking, size would be an issue. 02:07:05

9 Q Is it fair, though, that if you had the same 02:07:08

10 number of lasers and you wanted to put them on smaller 02:07:12

11 boards, you would need more boards? 02:07:15

12 A Same number of lasers on smaller boards need more 02:07:18

13 boards. So, yeah, that's -- hypothetically, you could 02:07:23

14 have 64 lasers on one board on one extreme. On the 02:07:26

15 other extreme, you could have 64 boards with each having 02:07:29

16 one laser. 02:07:32

17 Q So when you add more boards, your size is going 02:07:33

18 to increase in some dimension; fair? 02:07:36

19 A Yeah, your -- if you have got 64 boards, yes, you 02:07:38

20 may have a size issue, but you also have -- probably 02:07:42

21 have a difficult alignment issue. Now you are aligning 02:07:45

22 64 boards as opposed to one board. That's optical 02:07:48

23 alignment. 02:07:53

24 Q And there's also a physical alignment; correct? 02:07:54

25 A Well, you have got -- 02:07:57

Page 48

1 Q You have to account for with more boards? 02:08:01

2 A Well, physical alignment, and will the boards 02:08:03

3 stay in alignment over the course of a lifetime of the 02:08:07

4 LiDAR. 02:08:10

5 Q So in terms of the alignment, both physical and 02:08:10

6 optical, more boards probably means more complexity? 02:08:13

7 A Well, the way I would look at this is if you have 02:08:18

8 more boards, then your testing and alignment costs are 02:08:21

9 going to go higher. If you have one board, your 02:08:26

10 alignment cost is going to go down, but then you have 02:08:29

11 the problem of large size thermal loading and warpage of 02:08:32

12 the board to go out of alignment. 02:08:38

13 So in both extremes, from an engineering 02:08:40

14 standpoint, you may run into problems. 02:08:43

15 Q Okay. 02:08:45

16 A Is it possible to take a break? 02:08:49

17 Q Absolutely. 02:08:51

18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It is 2:08. We are going off 02:08:52

19 the record. 02:08:55

20 (Recess taken.) 02:08:55

21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record. 02:19:55

22 It's 2:20. 02:20:06

23 BY MR. NEWTON: 02:20:08

24 Q Dr. Lebby, you also offered an opinion in 02:20:13

25 paragraph 35 of your declaration that it is important to 02:20:16

Page 49

1 have an equal or approximately equal number of laser 02:20:18

2 diodes per PCB to ensure an evil -- even thermal load 02:20:19

3 across the PCBs; is that correct? 02:20:24

4 A Yes. 02:20:26

5 In paragraph 35, I'm indicating -- agreeing with 02:20:32

6 what Mr. Kits was saying in his declaration of making 02:20:35

7 sure that you have a equal or uniform thermal load. 02:20:40

8 Q Is it fair to say that all -- 02:20:43

9 (Discussion off the stenographic record.) 02:20:43

10 MR. NEWTON: I'll start over. 02:20:56

11 Q All else being equal, is it fair to say that an 02:20:57

12 eight-by-eight arrangement of laser diodes would have a 02:20:59

13 more even thermal load than a 02:21:04

14 arrangement of laser diodes? 02:21:06

15 A I don't know the detailed answer to that question 02:21:07

16 because I haven't looked at the engineering 02:21:13

17 specifications for everything. 02:21:15

18 Certainly we have to take into account the size 02:21:19

19 that is being allowed in the LiDAR to position all the 02:21:24

20 boards. I'm not clear -- it's not clear to me that 02:21:28

21 there may be space for eight boards. I don't know the 02:21:30

22 actual space -- the space availability in these designs, 02:21:34

23 but what is really important is to make sure that you 02:21:42

24 can fit the boards in in a reasonable size. You can 02:21:45

25 make sure that the design is what I would term is 02:21:52

13 (Pages 46 - 49)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 6 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 50

1 scalable, which means you can scale it in cost, so you 02:21:55

2 don't actually increase the cost, but you can reduce the 02:21:59

3 cost. You can maintain alignment, for example, and 02:22:01

4 that's making sure you have a thermal load. 02:22:04

5 So whether that's eight or six or seven and a 02:22:07

6 half or five and a half, I don't know that answer, but I 02:22:10

7 think it's important to take into account that you want 02:22:13

8 to try and minimize your thermal load issues and your 02:22:15

9 size issues when you come to your design. 02:22:20

10 Q Okay. I'll just ask you, since we are on a clock 02:22:22

11 here and we have a limited amount of time, if you could 02:22:29

12 try to answer my questions specifically. If you can't, 02:22:32

13 of course, I understand. 02:22:34

14 But just so we are clear, my question was: All 02:22:35

15 else being equal, an eight-by-eight arrangement of laser 02:22:38

16 diodes would have a more even thermal diode than a 02:22:41

17 arrangement, and with the 02:22:45

18 information, you can't give a "yes" or "no" answer to 02:22:49

19 that; is that fair? 02:22:52

20 A I can't give an answer because I don't have the 02:22:53

21 details. 02:22:57

22 When you say "everything being equal," I don't 02:22:59

23 know what "everything" is, so I can't really give you a 02:23:01

24 categorical answer there. 02:23:05

25 // 02:23:05

Page 51

1 (Exhibit 33 was marked for 02:23:05

2 identification by the Court Reporter.) 02:23:05

3 BY MR. NEWTON: 02:23:05

4 Q Okay. I've handed you Exhibit No. 33, and this 02:23:06

5 was Exhibit 4 to your declaration. It's a textbook 02:23:15

6 authored by Xingsheng Liu; is that correct? 02:23:18

7 And I should mention this is an excerpt from the 02:23:22

8 textbook. 02:23:25

9 A Yes, it is. 02:23:25

10 Q The title of the textbook is "Packaging of High 02:23:26

11 Power Semiconductor Lasers"? 02:23:29

12 A That is correct. 02:23:30

13 Q What does "packaging" refer to in that title? 02:23:31

14 A "Packaging" is usually the process of making 02:23:38

15 outside connections to a semiconductor chip. It doesn't 02:23:43

16 have to be a semiconductor chip, but it's usually 02:23:51

17 something that emits or detects light in this case. 02:23:53

18 Packaging usually allows both optical and electrical 02:23:56

19 connections to the outside world. 02:23:59

20 Q Okay. And this textbook is not specific to 02:24:01

21 LiDAR; is that correct? 02:24:03

22 A That is correct. 02:24:04

23 Q And the textbook does not describe any specific 02:24:05

24 LiDAR applications; is that correct? 02:24:11

25 A I don't believe the textbook discusses LiDAR 02:24:12

Page 52

1 applications. It just talks about the technology that 02:24:19

2 is used in terms of packaging semiconductor lasers. 02:24:24

3 Q And you -- I'm looking at paragraph 37 of your 02:24:27

4 declaration, which you might want to follow along with. 02:24:33

5 You specifically cite Figure 5.5 of the Liu 02:24:37

6 textbook; correct? 02:24:44

7 A Yes, I have cited that figure. 02:24:45

8 Q Okay. And this shows a semiconductor laser stack 02:24:47

9 that is composed of multisemiconductor laser bars 02:24:51

10 arranged vertically? 02:24:54

11 A That is correct; although, I would note, on 02:24:58

12 line 22 of page 9, I do not call out a laser stack of 02:25:02

13 bars, but I use the word three "boards," but I believe 02:25:07

14 that you are probably more correct. 02:25:12

15 Q Okay. "Boards" was your term, not the term from 02:25:14

16 the Liu textbook? 02:25:17

17 A "Board" was my term. 02:25:19

18 Q Okay. And laser bars, am I correct that they are 02:25:21

19 strips of multiple emitters on a common heat sink that 02:25:26

20 are all packaged together? 02:25:31

21 A Yeah. Laser bar is -- is a single piece of 02:25:32

22 semiconductor. 02:25:35

23 In this case, the laser bars are showing ten -- 02:25:36

24 ten emitters, and it would probably have ten stripes, 02:25:40

25 and they are not singulated, so they are not individual 02:25:43

Page 53

1 lasers. 02:25:46

2 Q And the LiDAR systems that we have talked about 02:25:47

3 in this case use singulated emitters; correct? 02:25:50

4 A Yes. They use singulated emitters. 02:25:55

5 I think I saw, in one of the documents, that the 02:26:00

6 emitter is composed of laser-emitting chips. I 02:26:05

7 haven't seen, in detail, what they look like, but this 02:26:11

8 example here just shows you that you could have a laser 02:26:14

9 bar with ten laser diode outputs. 02:26:17

10 Q You agree with me that Figure 5 is -- is it fair 02:26:20

11 to say it's kind of a crude representation of the laser 02:26:38

12 stack -- laser bar stack? 02:26:41

13 A When you say "crude," yeah, there's not a lot of 02:26:42

14 details in Figure 5.5. It just shows three substrates 02:26:48

15 mounted on top of each other with laser bars mounted on 02:26:52

16 the substrate and the -- what would look like the 02:26:55

17 emitted laser beam from each of the output emitters. 02:26:59

18 Q And do you agree that the number of emitters on a 02:27:03

19 semiconductor laser bar range from 19 to 69, typically? 02:27:06

20 A The number of emitters on a laser bar range from 02:27:12

21 19 to 69. I'm not sure I understand the question. 02:27:24

22 Q So a laser bar typically has a number of laser 02:27:27

23 emitters on it; correct? 02:27:32

24 A Yes. 02:27:34

25 Q Not just one, but multiple? 02:27:35

14 (Pages 50 - 53)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 7 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 54

1 A Multiple, yes. 02:27:37

2 Q And that number is typically 19 to 69? 02:27:37

3 A I -- no. I would disagree, because the laser bar 02:27:42

4 is generally referred to as a plurality of lasers, so 02:27:45

5 it's more than one laser output, so I would say that it 02:27:49

6 will be two and above, and I've seen laser bars with two 02:27:52

7 lasers, three lasers, four lasers, all the way up to a 02:27:56

8 few hundred lasers. 02:28:00

9 Q So if you go to page 110 of the Liu textbook, 02:28:01

10 Section 5.1.2? 02:28:06

11 A Section 5.1, yes, I see it. 02:28:14

12 Q And do you see where it says: A semiconductor 02:28:18

13 laser bar is composed by multiple emitters arranged in a 02:28:21

14 row as shown in Figure 5.3. The emitter numbers of a 02:28:24

15 semiconductor laser bar range from 19 to 69 with 02:28:34

16 different fill factors. 02:28:37

17 Do you see that? 02:28:39

18 A Yes, I see what has been written. 02:28:39

19 Q Is that different from your understanding of what 02:28:43

20 a laser bar is? 02:28:45

21 A Yes. 02:28:46

22 I don't know if this author is referring to 02:28:49

23 Reference No. 9. I certainly haven't looked at 02:28:51

24 Reference 9, but a laser bar is more than one laser 02:28:54

25 because, otherwise, that's how you define a bar. And I 02:28:59

Page 55

1 think this author may be talking about a particular 02:29:04

2 example, but, in my experience, a laser bar would have 02:29:06

3 two to n lasers outputs. 02:29:10

4 Q And regardless of how many emitters are on the 02:29:14

5 laser bar, do you agree with me that they are typically 02:29:17

6 all on oriented the same direction? 02:29:20

7 A When you say "oriented," can I further understand 02:29:22

8 what you are trying to say? 02:29:28

9 Q Sure. 02:29:30

10 If the emitters are all mounted in the same 02:29:30

11 plane, then they are all pointing in the same direction 02:29:39

12 perpendicular to that plane? 02:29:42

13 A I've seen cases where that's not the case. 02:29:45

14 Typically, that is the case, but you can do 02:29:49

15 things in laser bars to change the output spot. 02:29:52

16 What we are looking at here in Figure 5.5 is fast 02:29:57

17 axis output where the vertical is the fast axis, which 02:30:02

18 is the -- yes, the vertical. It's the narrow part of 02:30:05

19 the beam and the white part of the beam. The fill axis 02:30:11

20 is the horizontal. 02:30:16

21 I've seen situations where the lasers can be 02:30:18

22 variably spaced. They can be spaced in parallel, 02:30:21

23 equally spaced, and I've seen it where the upper beam 02:30:24

24 has been modified by the fabrication techniques. 02:30:28

25 So although this is a -- a example in the book, 02:30:31

Page 56

1 but there are other examples in the literature which 02:30:34

2 show differences from this. 02:30:38

3 Q You didn't cite any of those examples in your 02:30:39

4 declaration, did you? 02:30:41

5 A That is correct. 02:30:42

6 Q And then Figure 5.5 -- so the fast axis is the 02:30:43

7 vertical access -- axis of each beam? 02:30:46

8 A That is correct. 02:30:50

9 Q And in the Figure 5.5, all of those fast axes are 02:30:50

10 in planes that are parallel to each other? 02:31:00

11 A Yes, I say that's correct, from what I can see in 02:31:04

12 the figure. 02:31:09

13 Q And you didn't cite any examples of laser bars 02:31:09

14 where the fast axis planes would be intersecting with 02:31:13

15 each other? 02:31:16

16 A No, I did not. 02:31:16

17 Q And if you go to Figure 5.3 of the Liu textbook 02:31:17

18 on the previous page, this identifies a heat sink? 02:31:27

19 A Oh, yes, it's on 5.3. I see it. 02:31:38

20 Q Those heat sinks are typically metal blocks that 02:31:41

21 the laser diode bar is positioned on top of? 02:31:53

22 A In some cases, yes. 02:31:58

23 In high-power lasers, the heat sink can -- can 02:32:02

24 well be a couple block. Most diode lasers have ceramic 02:32:05

25 heat sinks. I've seen lasers with, for example, silicon 02:32:11

Page 57

1 heat sinks, so there's various materials that can be 02:32:15

2 used. 02:32:17

3 Q Is metal the most common heat sink material, in 02:32:17

4 your experience? 02:32:20

5 A It depends. It's definitely an answer depends on 02:32:20

6 the performance of the laser. 02:32:24

7 In the lasers that this book is talking about, in 02:32:25

8 this chapter, these are high-power lasers. I would say 02:32:28

9 a combination of metal and ceramic is probably popular. 02:32:31

10 (Exhibit 34 was marked for 02:32:31

11 identification by the Court Reporter.) 02:32:31

12 BY MR. NEWTON: 02:32:31

13 Q Can you go to Exhibit 34, which I've also put in 02:32:37

14 front of you, and do you recognize this as a 02:32:40

15 dissertation that you cited in your declaration? 02:32:47

16 A That is correct. 02:32:49

17 Q And, again, this is excerpts of the dissertation. 02:32:50

18 And if you go to page 16 of Exhibit 34, and 02:32:54

19 Figure 2.6 shows two examples of heat sinks used for 02:33:06

20 laser diode bars; is that correct? 02:33:12

21 A Yes. This shows two copper heat sinks for 02:33:13

22 high-power lasers. 02:33:21

23 Q Okay. So if you go to paragraph 46 of your 02:33:23

24 declaration, back on Exhibit 30 -- and this part of your 02:33:50

25 declaration is discussing Waymo trade secrets related to 02:34:06

15 (Pages 54 - 57)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 8 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 58

1 ? 02:34:10

2 A I see that. 02:34:12

3 Q Am I correct that you do not dispute that the 02:34:13

4 Fuji device includes a transmit block with a plurality 02:34:18

5 of laser diodes mounted on with 02:34:21

6 02:34:27

7 A So I have heard this from Mr. Haslim in my 02:34:30

8 video-call discussion with him, because I asked him the 02:34:37

9 question, though I have not actually seen a board or a 02:34:39

10 laser package in -- in real life, only from a 02:34:42

11 photograph, which I've used in my document, and the 02:34:47

12 resolution of which is -- doesn't allow me to take a 02:34:50

13 close look at the situation. 02:34:53

14 Q So you did not offer an opinion as to whether 02:34:54

15 this design is present or not in the Fuji device? 02:34:58

16 A It's my understanding that the laser diodes used 02:35:02

17 in the Fuji system are from my discussion with 02:35:08

18 Mr. Haslim. 02:35:12

19 Q Did he tell you 02:35:12

20 A I believe he may have said but 02:35:14

21 I can't be quoted on that because that number did come 02:35:22

22 up, and I wasn't sure if it related to 02:35:26

23 02:35:30

24 Q Is it correct that the only LiDAR devices with 02:35:33

25 that are identified in your 02:35:37

Page 59

1 declaration are Waymo's devices and the Uber Fuji 02:35:40

2 device? 02:35:44

3 A Well, I haven't done a industrial review of LiDAR 02:35:44

4 devices, so what I can say is that, from the documents 02:35:52

5 I've read, the Waymo device uses and on 02:35:57

6 the Fuji device, from what I've been told -- and I 02:36:03

7 haven't actually seen the board in detail -- that Fuji 02:36:06

8 device also uses diodes. I don't know if any 02:36:09

9 other laser -- LiDAR unit uses at this 02:36:13

10 point. 02:36:18

11 Q So you didn't identify any others besides the 02:36:18

12 Waymo and Fuji device in your declaration? 02:36:21

13 A I didn't identify any others because I haven't 02:36:22

14 done analysis. 02:36:27

15 Q Paragraph 49 of your declaration, you cite the 02:36:28

16 Liu textbook again; is that correct? 02:36:37

17 A Yes. 02:36:39

18 Q Okay. And I believe you cite page 224 of the Liu 02:36:41

19 textbook? 02:36:57

20 A Yes, I have it in front of me. 02:36:58

21 Q And your declaration at paragraph 49 includes 02:37:00

22 Figure 7.5.1 from Liu; correct? 02:37:09

23 A Could you tell me where you get 7.5.1? 02:37:12

24 Q You might have to cross-reference it with the -- 02:37:22

25 the Liu text itself. 02:37:25

Page 60

1 A Oh, Figure 7.51 [sic]? 02:37:28

2 Q Yes. 02:37:30

3 A Yes, I've got that in front of me. 02:37:31

4 Q And Liu also includes a Figure 7.5.0? 02:37:33

5 A That is correct. 02:37:36

6 Q And that's not cited in your declaration? I 02:37:37

7 should say, the figure itself is not included in your 02:37:47

8 declaration? 02:37:49

9 A Yeah, I think I just cited the Liu textbook 02:37:49

10 page 224. 02:37:53

11 Q You don't discuss Figure 7.5.0 in your 02:37:54

12 declaration? 02:37:57

13 A That is correct. 02:37:57

14 Q And figure -- page 224 of the Liu textbook, along 02:38:01

15 with Figure 7.5.0 and 7.5.1, this material is not in the 02:38:13

16 context of LiDAR; correct? 02:38:19

17 A Well, what we are looking at here is the 02:38:20

18 placement of laser diodes. 02:38:26

19 Q So my question, Dr. Lebby, was just: Is it in 02:38:28

20 the context of LiDAR specifically? 02:38:31

21 A Well, this is in the context of packaging laser 02:38:33

22 diodes in high-power environment, and LiDAR uses 02:38:37

23 high-power laser diodes, so I would agree with you that 02:38:41

24 LiDAR is not noted in the book, but I have to observe 02:38:46

25 that LiDAR uses high-power laser diodes in a similar 02:38:50

Page 61

1 fashion. 02:38:54

2 Q So page 224 of the Liu textbook, you would agree, 02:38:55

3 is not discussing LiDAR specifically; is that fair? 02:39:02

4 A Well, it's -- it's discussing -- it's discussing 02:39:05

5 the packaging of high-power semiconductor lasers are 02:39:09

6 used in LiDAR, but it does not, agree with you, call out 02:39:12

7 LiDAR specifically. 02:39:17

8 Q It doesn't say use these designs in a LiDAR 02:39:17

9 system? 02:39:20

10 A This book -- the context of this book is -- is 02:39:20

11 the packaging of the lasers, not the applications, so I 02:39:24

12 would agree with you that LiDAR is not called out or 02:39:28

13 mentioned. 02:39:30

14 Q And I believe you say that a known disadvantage 02:39:31

15 of is an effective heat 02:39:36

16 conduction; correct? 02:39:41

17 A That is correct. 02:39:41

18 Q And you agree with me that heat conduction and 02:39:42

19 other thermal considerations are important for 02:39:46

20 high-powered laser diode applications? 02:39:48

21 A I would go further to say that heat conduction is 02:39:50

22 important for all semiconductor diode lasers. 02:39:54

23 Q And then the -- I believe you also said the 02:39:56

24 downside of underhanging laser diodes is potential 02:40:00

25 blockage of emitted light? 02:40:03

16 (Pages 58 - 61)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 9 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 66

1 A If I remember correctly, my understanding of the 02:46:37

2 trade secret is 02:46:41

3 02:46:45

4 . 02:46:50

5 Q So it's your understanding of the trade secret 02:46:54

6 02:46:56

7 02:47:01

8 02:47:06

9 A No. No. That's not exactly what I'm trying to 02:47:08

10 say. 02:47:11

11 What I'm trying to say is you have two parts to 02:47:11

12 this trade secret, is the best of my understanding. The 02:47:14

13 first part is 02:47:17

14 is 02:47:23

15 the first part. And the second part is -- 02:47:28

16 02:47:33

17 02:47:36

18 Q And do you agree that the trade secret also 02:47:36

19 includes the 02:47:39

20 A I'm not sure I understand that -- that question, 02:47:42

21 other than the fact that 02:47:57

22 02:48:01

23 02:48:05

24 02:48:09

25 02:48:14

Page 67

1 Q Okay. In paragraph 53, you say: The concept of 02:48:14

2 has been 02:48:22

3 known to the public since at least the 1970s, and you 02:48:24

4 cite U.S. Patent No. 4,244,109? 02:48:28

5 A Yes, I do. 02:48:33

6 Q I've marked that patent as Exhibit No. 35, which 02:48:33

7 is in front of you. 02:48:38

8 (Exhibit 35 was marked for 02:48:40

9 identification by the Court Reporter.) 02:48:49

10 BY MR. NEWTON: 02:48:49

11 Q And the '109 patent is directed to a read/write 02:48:51

12 head and a magnetic disk data storage system. 02:48:57

13 Does that sound correct? 02:49:01

14 A Yes. In the "Background of the Invention," the 02:49:02

15 '109 patent does talk about that as the application. 02:49:04

16 Q So it's not in the field of LiDAR? 02:49:07

17 A I would agree that the patent is written towards 02:49:12

18 optical storage. 02:49:15

19 Q And the '109 patent does not deal with 02:49:16

20 correct? 02:49:25

21 A If you look at the sections I've cited in 02:49:26

22 column 1 -- 189, that talks about the aligning of the 02:49:32

23 printed circuit board, and 163 talks about having a 02:49:38

24 cylindrical pin for the alignment. 02:49:47

25 But if you also look at column 3, which, I might 02:49:50

Page 68

1 note, that I did not cite in my report because I 02:49:53

2 forgot -- let's see. The -- from line -- column 3, 02:49:57

3 line 10 to 16 talks about the alignment of photodiodes 02:50:05

4 towards the hole. I can read it if you wish. 02:50:11

5 Q No, that's okay. 02:50:13

6 Did you understand my question? 02:50:14

7 A Well, your question is, is the patent is -- 02:50:17

8 teaches and what I'm 02:50:20

9 suggesting is that the patent, if you look at column 3, 02:50:23

10 actually does more than that. It actually teaches the 02:50:26

11 02:50:30

12 02:50:35

13 02:50:38

14 MR. NEWTON: I'll move to strike that response as 02:50:41

15 nonresponsive and outside the scope of your declaration. 02:50:44

16 Q My question was simply that this patent does not 02:50:47

17 deal with 02:50:51

18 It's just a single printed circuit board; 02:50:53

19 correct? 02:50:56

20 A I believe there are two boards that are aligned 02:50:56

21 together here, and I believe that this patent teaches 02:51:00

22 the alignment of photodiodes to the board using the pin 02:51:05

23 as the source. 02:51:08

24 MR. NEWTON: Okay. I'll move to strike that as 02:51:11

25 well. 02:51:13

Page 69

1 Q If you look at Figure 3, that shows just a single 02:51:13

2 printed circuit board; correct, labeled 10? 02:51:16

3 A Figure 3 shows a number of things here. 02:51:23

4 No. 10 -- 02:51:46

5 Q Dr. Lebby, I'm sorry, just, again, in the 02:51:46

6 interest of time, if you could answer my question as 02:51:49

7 I've asked it, and I don't think the question was 02:51:51

8 complicated. 02:51:54

9 I just said, if you look at Figure 3, it shows a 02:51:54

10 single printed circuit board labeled No. 10; correct? 02:51:57

11 A Figure 3 shows a printed circuit board 10, plus a 02:51:59

12 alignment of a plate, which is aligned to the printed 02:52:04

13 circuit board, which I'm looking for the number and I 02:52:07

14 can't find it. 02:52:09

15 Q Okay. So you agree that Figure 3 shows only one 02:52:10

16 printed circuit board, "yes" or "no"? 02:52:13

17 A Let me just check what No. 14 is. 02:52:17

18 It certainly looks like Figure 3 has one printed 02:52:35

19 circuit board labeled 10. 02:52:38

20 Q And paragraph 53 of your declaration does not 02:52:39

21 describe more than one printed circuit board; correct? 02:52:52

22 A Paragraph 53 discusses the concept of using holes 02:52:55

23 to align printed circuit boards, and I've just given you 02:53:05

24 one patent, which is patent '109, that shows that you 02:53:07

25 can align components on a printed circuit board that's 02:53:12

18 (Pages 66 - 69)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 10 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 70

1 actually sourced to a pin to do it -- to align the board 02:53:14

2 to a glass plate, and there was a glass plate and a 02:53:17

3 board, and the components were all aligned based to the 02:53:23

4 pin. 02:53:25

5 Q Okay. So in your description of the '109 patent 02:53:25

6 in paragraph 53, you only mention the one PCB that's 02:53:28

7 disclosed in that patent; correct? 02:53:31

8 A Yes, that's correct. 02:53:32

9 Q And paragraph 54 of your declaration cites a 02:53:51

10 German patent from 1980? 02:53:55

11 A That is correct. 02:53:58

12 Q It's actually a patent application; correct? 02:53:59

13 A I take it that's Exhibit 36? 02:54:05

14 Q That's correct. Exhibit 36 was Exhibit 7 to your 02:54:13

15 declaration, I believe. 02:54:18

16 (Exhibit 36 was marked for 02:54:20

17 identification by the Court Reporter.) 02:54:21

18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if it's patent 02:54:21

19 application or not, but certainly it's a German patent, 02:54:25

20 and I've cited the abstract of this patent. 02:54:30

21 BY MR. NEWTON: 02:54:32

22 Q And the version of it that you have attached to 02:54:37

23 your declaration is -- looks like an English 02:54:39

24 translation; correct? 02:54:41

25 A Yes, I believe there's English and German. 02:54:42

Page 71

1 Q Doesn't have any figures in it, does it? 02:54:45

2 A That is correct. 02:54:47

3 Q And in paragraph 54, you describe the German 02:54:48

4 patent as describing board holes that all have an exact 02:55:00

5 relative position to one another; correct? 02:55:05

6 A Correct. 02:55:07

7 Q And the board holes are not 02:55:08

8 correct? 02:55:15

9 A That I'm not sure about, because the abstract 02:55:16

10 talks about boards in a stack, so I would presume that 02:55:25

11 these are boards aligned in a stack using a reference 02:55:29

12 hole to align those boards. 02:55:33

13 Q But the abstract also discusses the board holes 02:55:34

14 as being positioned over a salter boss [phonetic]; 02:55:38

15 correct? 02:55:42

16 A That is correct. 02:55:42

17 Q So if each hole is positioned over a salter boss, 02:55:53

18 then the holes are not going to be positioned over each 02:56:03

19 other? 02:56:06

20 A Well, the design of the patent is to certainly 02:56:06

21 make holes in the printed circuit board so they could be 02:56:08

22 used in a stack minus, then, in a stack is a stack of 02:56:11

23 printed circuit boards that are aligned to the holes. 02:56:16

24 Q Right. 02:56:18

25 But there's not enough description in that 02:56:19

Page 72

1 abstract to say that 02:56:22

2 02:56:25

3 A Well, you talk about 02:56:26

4 02:56:29

5 02:56:33

6 Q So it's your opinion that this patent discloses 02:56:34

7 02:56:38

8 02:56:42

9 02:56:44

10 A It's my understanding this patent teaches that 02:56:44

11 02:56:49

12 02:56:51

13 Q And that's the -- 02:56:54

14 A I believe the patent doesn't talk about the stack 02:56:55

15 per se, but it talks about the process of putting a 02:57:00

16 reference hole or an accurately located hole into 02:57:03

17 printed board so that 02:57:06

18 02:57:09

19 Q Okay. And, again, you didn't cite the figures 02:57:09

20 from this patent as part of your declaration? 02:57:13

21 A I didn't cite the figures because I haven't seen 02:57:16

22 the figures and I couldn't find the figures. 02:57:18

23 Q You looked for them? 02:57:20

24 A I tried. 02:57:21

25 Q And it's not your opinion that this German patent 02:57:22

Page 73

1 is in the field of LiDAR; correct? 02:57:31

2 A Well, the patent doesn't teach the use of these 02:57:33

3 boards in LiDAR, but boards, as we know, are used in 02:57:39

4 LiDAR, so -- but it doesn't explicitly talk about LiDAR. 02:57:43

5 It talks about printed circuit boards. 02:57:46

6 Q And the portion of the -- or, I should say, the 02:57:48

7 German patent, it's not your opinion that it describes 02:57:53

8 02:57:56

9 02:57:59

10 A It's my understanding this patent doesn't discuss 02:58:00

11 . 02:58:04

12 Q Does it discuss 02:58:09

13 A Just give me 30 seconds. 02:58:12

14 I believe are not mentioned in this patent. 02:59:22

15 MR. NEWTON: Okay. Can we take a break real 02:59:24

16 quick? 02:59:26

17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yeah. I've got to change the 02:59:27

18 disc, so -- 02:59:27

19 MR. NEWTON: Okay. 02:59:27

20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: -- that will work out. 02:59:27

21 This is the end of Disc 1 in Volume 1 in the 02:59:29

22 deposition of Dr. Lebby. It is 2:59. 02:59:31

23 (Recess taken.) 02:59:35

24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record. 03:05:16

25 This is the beginning of Disc 2 in Volume 1 in 03:05:27

19 (Pages 70 - 73)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 11 of 12
CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

Page 74

1 the deposition of Dr. Lebby. It's 3:05. 03:05:31

2 (Exhibit 37 was marked for 03:05:31

3 identification by the Court Reporter.) 03:05:33

4 BY MR. NEWTON: 03:05:33

5 Q Okay. Dr. Lebby, if you go to Exhibit No. 37, 03:05:34

6 Deposition Exhibit No. 37, which is Exhibit No. 8 to 03:05:38

7 your declaration. 03:05:42

8 Do you recognize this as the '037 patent? 03:05:44

9 A Yes, I recognize it. 03:05:46

10 Q And this is directed to a multilayer printed 03:05:47

11 circuit board? 03:05:50

12 A That is correct. 03:05:51

13 Q And that's just a single printed circuit board, 03:05:51

14 not multiple printed circuit boards? 03:05:55

15 A I believe this is a single printed circuit board. 03:05:56

16 Q And this is -- patent is not in the field of 03:06:01

17 LiDAR; correct? 03:06:05

18 A The patent doesn't mention LiDAR at all. It just 03:06:05

19 talks about the process to drill holes into a printed 03:06:15

20 circuit board and position hidden conductive layers. 03:06:18

21 Q Okay. And it doesn't talk about 03:06:22

22 03:06:25

23 correct? 03:06:29

24 A That's my understanding of this patent. Doesn't 03:06:30

25 discuss 03:06:33

Page 75

1 03:06:37

2 03:06:41

3 but they are not directly called out in this patent. 03:06:44

4 Q And so we have looked at the Liu textbook, the 03:06:47

5 Scholz dissertation, the '109 patent, the German patent, 03:06:54

6 and the '037 patent, and you haven't cited any evidence 03:06:59

7 in your declaration that someone has actually taken the 03:07:04

8 teachings of these references and applied them to LiDAR; 03:07:07

9 correct? And I'm just asking what you have cited in 03:07:13

10 your declaration. 03:07:15

11 A Yeah, what I've cited in my declaration is 03:07:16

12 technologies that are common to myself as an experienced 03:07:20

13 person in the field where -- 03:07:24

14 Q And, I'm sorry, Dr. Lebby, to cut you off, I'm 03:07:27

15 just really under the clock here. 03:07:29

16 I just -- if you can answer them "yes" or "no," 03:07:31

17 you don't cite any evidence in your declaration of 03:07:33

18 someone taking these references and applying their 03:07:35

19 teachings to LiDAR? 03:07:38

20 A I have not observed any of these references 03:07:40

21 directly, either being taught or mentioned in LiDAR, but 03:07:44

22 the technologies within these references are certainly 03:07:49

23 something that could be used in LiDAR. 03:07:52

24 Q Okay. And it's not your opinion that Uber took 03:07:53

25 these references and used them as a guide to develop its 03:07:57

Page 76

1 LiDAR system; correct? 03:08:02

2 A I cited these references to show that industry 03:08:03

3 technology is out there and in public that addresses 03:08:07

4 some of the trade secrets that I read in the Jaffe 03:08:12

5 Exhibit 1 document. 03:08:17

6 Q You did not cite them to show that Uber used 03:08:17

7 these references or these teachings to develop its 03:08:20

8 system; correct? 03:08:23

9 A These references were cited to show 03:08:24

10 state-of-the-art in technology of printed circuit boards 03:08:28

11 and -- and recent placement in alignment, things like 03:08:32

12 That -- that's the only reason I cited them. 03:08:35

13 Q Okay. So the answer to my question is "correct"? 03:08:39

14 A I did not use these references to show anything 03:08:44

15 about Uber, just where the technology is in the -- from 03:08:47

16 an experienced engineer. 03:08:53

17 Q Okay. If you go to paragraph 59 of your 03:08:54

18 declaration here, you discuss Trade Secret Nos. 94 to 03:08:58

19 99? 03:09:08

20 A Yes, I see that. 03:09:08

21 Q And these trade secret numbers refer to the PCB 03:09:12

22 design schematics and layouts for the transmit boards in 03:09:20

23 Waymo's GBR3 LiDAR device? 03:09:24

24 A That is correct. 03:09:26

25 Q And we talked earlier about your materials 03:09:27

Page 77

1 considered. 03:09:29

2 You didn't consider these specific design files 03:09:29

3 as part of your declaration; correct? 03:09:31

4 A I only considered what was shown to me in the 03:09:33

5 exhibits, and I think they were the Jaffe exhibits. 03:09:38

6 Q Okay. You didn't look at the native versions of 03:09:41

7 the design files, for example? 03:09:45

8 A That is correct. 03:09:46

9 Q And you didn't offer an opinion about whether 03:09:46

10 these files themselves are trade secrets; correct? 03:09:56

11 A I never looked. It wasn't part of my remit to 03:09:59

12 look at native files, so I haven't offered any opinions. 03:10:04

13 Q And do you agree with me, generally, that, you 03:10:08

14 know, based on your experience that a company's design 03:10:12

15 files can be trade secrets and include trade secret 03:10:15

16 information? 03:10:19

17 A It depends. 03:10:19

18 Also, from my experience with trade secrets is 03:10:24

19 that you have got to have very clear specificity of your 03:10:27

20 trade secret. I guess it could be in -- trade design 03:10:31

21 files could be included in that. 03:10:35

22 Q And you understand, as part of this case, Waymo 03:10:36

23 has alleged that Anthony Levandowski stole 14,000 files 03:10:42

24 related to Waymo's LiDAR systems? 03:10:47

25 A I have certainly read that in some of the 03:10:50

20 (Pages 74 - 77)

Veritext Legal Solutions

866 299-5127

Case 3:17-cv-00939-WHA Document 248-9 Filed 04/21/17 Page 12 of 12