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·1· · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

·2· · · · · · ·NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

·3· · · · · · · · · · SAN JOSE DIVISION

·4

·5· ·CHRISTINA GRACE and KEN POTTER,

·6· ·Individually and on Behalf of

·7· ·All Others Similarly Situated,

·8· · · · · · Plaintiffs,

·9· ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·No. 5:17-cv-00551-LHK-NC

10· ·APPLE INC.,

11· · · · · · Defendant.

12· ·-------------------------------/

13

14

15· · · · ·HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

16

17· · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF GIGI CHOY WANG

18· · · · · · · · · PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA

19· · · · · · · · ·THURSDAY, JULY 19, 2018

20

21

22

23· ·Reported by:

24· ·JANIS JENNINGS, CSR, CCRR

25· ·Job No. 306598

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·1· · · · A.· Officially the title was Security

·2· ·Operations Engineer.

·3· · · · Q.· And what was your role in that position?

·4· · · · A.· I worked on the PKI services team.

·5· · · · Q.· By "PKI," is that public key

·6· ·infrastructure?

·7· · · · A.· That's correct.

·8· · · · Q.· What does the PKI team do?

·9· · · · A.· They issue and manage digital certificates

10· ·for Apple.

11· · · · Q.· Does the PKI team do anything other than

12· ·the issuance and management of digital certificates?

13· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· I object it's vague as to

14· ·time.

15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sorry.· Ask the question --

16· ·please ask the question again.

17· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

18· · · · Q.· I'll ask perhaps an easier question.

19· · · · A.· Okay.

20· · · · Q.· Is it fair to say that the focus of the

21· ·PKI team is the issuance and management of digital

22· ·certificates?

23· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Same objection.

24· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· As I mentioned, the team

25· ·manages and issues digital certificates.· There are

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·1· · · · Q.· Understood.

·2· · · · · · So is it accurate to say that the PKI

·3· ·team was examining the expiration dates for all

·4· ·of Apple's CA digital certificates?

·5· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.· Misstates

·6· ·the testimony.

·7· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I believe what I said is

·8· ·that the PKI team -- the PKI team does have a

·9· ·process to look at expirations of CA certificates.

10· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

11· · · · Q.· Does the PKI team ever exclude certain

12· ·CA certificates from the universe of CA certificates

13· ·for which it's looking at the expirations?

14· · · · A.· Not that I can recall.

15· · · · Q.· So the PKI team looks at the expirations

16· ·for all of Apple's CA certificates?

17· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

18· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So we -- the word "all"

19· ·always is -- if there are ones for whatever reason I

20· ·don't know about or -- I'm not sure how that could

21· ·even happen.· But for the ones that we know exist,

22· ·I believe we tried our best to -- to examine the

23· ·expiration date.

24· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

25· · · · Q.· Okay.· So just to tie things together.

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·1· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

·2· · · · Q.· You mentioned that in 2013 you and others

·3· ·took certain steps to identify that there was a

·4· ·certificate expiring in April of 2014 and to

·5· ·determine what we needed to do; is that right?

·6· · · · A.· Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· When taking those steps in 2013, were you

·8· ·aware at any point that one of the things that might

·9· ·happen on April 16th, 2014, was that there could be

10· ·a service outage of FaceTime?

11· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

12· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· We can't predict what happens

13· ·in the future.

14· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

15· · · · Q.· Was there ever any concern in 2013 among

16· ·the people with whom you worked to determine the

17· ·impact of the certificate that was going to expire

18· ·on April 16th, 2014, that FaceTime service could be

19· ·impacted?

20· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.· Calls

21· ·for speculation.· Lacks foundation about what other

22· ·people thought or were concerned about.

23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So in my role as it relates

24· ·to certificate expirations, we would need to

25· ·identify what is the impact of the expiration and

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·1· ·what we would need to do.

·2· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

·3· · · · Q.· Do you recall trying to identify the impact

·4· ·of the expiration of the certificate that ultimately

·5· ·expired on April 16th, 2014?

·6· · · · A.· Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· Do you recall ever identifying that the

·8· ·impact could at least potentially have been for

·9· ·FaceTime to stop working for at least some Apple

10· ·customers beginning on April 16th, 2014?

11· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.· It's

12· ·vague as to whether you mean her identifying the

13· ·impact or somebody else.· To the extent you're

14· ·asking about what somebody else might have done,

15· ·it lacks foundation and calls for speculation.

16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So to be clear, my team

17· ·manages and issues certificates, but my team is not

18· ·using those certificates; like we don't operate the

19· ·service that uses those certificates.· So we issue

20· ·a certificate to a team which creates a service and

21· ·they can choose how to use that certificate.

22· · · · · · So when there's a decision that needs to

23· ·be made about a certificate; like if it's about to

24· ·expire, what I would do in my role is I would go to

25· ·a team that we believe is using the certificate and

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·1· · · · Q.· And as best as you can remember, when you

·2· ·say you would review "Periodically" --

·3· · · · A.· Uh-huh.

·4· · · · Q.· -- approximately how often was that?

·5· · · · A.· At least once a year, I would say.

·6· · · · Q.· What was the goal in monitoring potential

·7· ·impending certificate expirations?

·8· · · · A.· From my team's perspective, we need to know

·9· ·whether we need to take any action.· Like if the

10· ·certificate -- if a particular type of certificate

11· ·is still needed, then do we need to create a new --

12· ·a new version of that certificate when their

13· ·certificate expires.

14· · · · Q.· Are there any advantages from the

15· ·perspective of the PKI team in knowing in advance

16· ·that a certificate is going to expire rather than

17· ·finding out after the fact that a certificate has

18· ·expired?

19· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

20· ·Incomplete hypothetical.

21· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think you would -- I mean,

22· ·you would typically want to determine what actions

23· ·you can take before a certificate expires.

24· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

25· · · · Q.· Why?

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·1· · · · A.· So that you can take action.· Although

·2· ·you could take action after as well, I guess.· So

·3· ·it's -- I'm sorry, back to your original question.

·4· ·You're asking if there was any advantage?

·5· · · · Q.· Yes.· Any advantage to identify an

·6· ·impending certificate expiration as opposed to

·7· ·trying to react after the fact.

·8· · · · A.· Then you can make any necessary changes

·9· ·ahead of time.

10· · · · Q.· Are the options for dealing with the

11· ·certificate expiration more expansive before the

12· ·expiration has happened as compared to after the

13· ·expiration has happened?

14· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

15· ·Incomplete hypothetical.

16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· "More expansive"?· What does

17· ·that mean?

18· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

19· · · · Q.· Are there more options to avoid potential

20· ·consequences from a certificate expiration when you

21· ·know ahead of time that the certificate is going

22· ·to expire as opposed to after the certificate has

23· ·expired?

24· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.· It's an

25· ·incomplete hypothetical.

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·1· · · · · · · · · ·AFTERNOON SESSION

·2· · · · · · · · · · ·*· · *· · *

·3· · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· The time is 1:07 p.m.

·4· ·We are back on the record.

·5· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

·6· · · · Q.· Welcome back.

·7· · · · A.· Hello.

·8· · · · Q.· Before we broke for lunch you mentioned

·9· ·working on approximately 10 certificate expirations

10· ·in connection with your work on the PKI team;

11· ·correct?

12· · · · A.· Yes, that was my estimate.

13· · · · Q.· What was the goal of the PKI team's work on

14· ·those certificate expirations?

15· · · · A.· To determine what my team needed to do.

16· ·Whether we would need -- whether the certificate

17· ·is still needed -- or that type of certificate was

18· ·still needed and whether we would have to create a

19· ·new one.

20· · · · Q.· Why might a new certificate need to be

21· ·created?

22· · · · A.· Because -- well, for whatever reason

23· ·the business team says that they're still using

24· ·that certificate to support their service, and you

25· ·need a new one when the existing one has expired or

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·1· ·if something needs to change from the existing.

·2· · · · Q.· What happens if a certificate that's still

·3· ·in use expires?

·4· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

·5· ·Incomplete hypothetical.

·6· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It depends on how the -- how

·7· ·the service that uses that certificate uses it.

·8· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

·9· · · · Q.· Would it be accurate to say that one of

10· ·the potential consequences of the expiration of

11· ·a certificate that's in use is that there will be

12· ·service outages?

13· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

14· ·Incomplete hypothetical.

15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It depends on how that

16· ·certificate is used.

17· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

18· · · · Q.· Understood.· But is one of the potential

19· ·impacts of a certificate expiration a service

20· ·outage?

21· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Objection.· Incomplete

22· ·hypothetical.· Asked and answered.

23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know.

24· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

25· · · · Q.· You don't know whether one of the potential

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·1· ·would be conveyed to the PKI team?

·2· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

·3· ·Incomplete hypothetical.

·4· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So if they -- if they needed

·5· ·a new certificate, yes, they would come to my team

·6· ·and say they need a new certificate.

·7· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

·8· · · · Q.· Do you recall the PKI team when you were

·9· ·working on that team ever having any idea why a new

10· ·certificate might have been needed?

11· · · · A.· Because they're still continuing to use

12· ·that type of certificate.

13· · · · Q.· Do you recall at any point during your

14· ·tenure at Apple the PKI team needing to create a

15· ·new certificate because the failure to do so might

16· ·result in a service outage?

17· · · · A.· Okay.· So if a service was using a

18· ·certificate and they were -- and they were -- okay.

19· ·If a service is expecting a certificate to be used,

20· ·then -- and they continue -- and they expect that

21· ·going forward it will also continue to be used,

22· ·then, I mean, that's a case of when they -- why

23· ·they would need to renew.· They would need a new

24· ·certificate.

25· · · · Q.· Yeah.· I'm asking about what the PKI team

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·1· ·based on because the certificate is about to expire

·2· ·and that means that we should be taking action on

·3· ·it.

·4· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

·5· · · · Q.· Miss Choy Wang, I'm not asking about the

·6· ·process.· I'm not asking about anything leading up

·7· ·to the point where the PKI team becomes aware that

·8· ·it needs to create a new certificate.· I'm asking

·9· ·about:· Was there ever a time during your tenure

10· ·on the PKI team when the PKI team was aware that

11· ·it needed to create a new certificate because the

12· ·failure to do so could potentially result in a

13· ·service outage?· "Yes" or "no."

14· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.· Asked and

15· ·answered.· Incomplete hypothetical.

16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I can say that when we go

17· ·to the team to tell them a certificate is about to

18· ·expire, we -- I would ask them to consider whether

19· ·that certificate could cause a service outage.

20· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

21· · · · Q.· Do you recall ever being told that a

22· ·particular certificate could cause a service outage?

23· · · · A.· The thing is that if you identify that --

24· ·if you identify how a -- the certificate is used

25· ·and look at the code to determine things that could

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·1· ·potentially cause issues, you can then fix them.· If

·2· ·you know -- if you know that a particular condition

·3· ·when met will lead to a condition that you don't

·4· ·want, then you can have the opportunity to go and

·5· ·fix them.

·6· · · · Q.· Miss Choy --

·7· · · · A.· Yes.

·8· · · · Q.· -- I'm asking you factual questions about

·9· ·whether things ever happened.· My question is:

10· ·Do you recall ever being told that a particular

11· ·certificate could cause a service outage?· "Yes" or

12· ·"no."

13· · · · A.· I want to answer accurately so I'm trying

14· ·to think about how to say it.

15· · · · Q.· It's a factual question, "yes" or "no."

16· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· She's trying to answer the

17· ·question.

18· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I guess my -- I guess it's

19· ·the...· I'm trying to get to the premise of the

20· ·question.

21· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

22· · · · Q.· What do you mean by "get to the premise of

23· ·the question"?

24· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Counsel, this is twice

25· ·now she's trying to answer the question and you're

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·1· ·that expiring certificate.

·2· · · · Q.· During your time on the PKI team, can you

·3· ·recall a time when the determination was made to

·4· ·allow a service outage that was anticipated to

·5· ·happen due to the expiration of a certificate?

·6· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

·7· ·Incomplete hypothetical.· Assumes facts not in

·8· ·evidence.

·9· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Please repeat the question.

10· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

11· · · · Q.· During your time on the PKI team, can

12· ·you recall a time when the determination was made

13· ·to allow a service outage that was anticipated to

14· ·happen due to the expiration of a certificate?

15· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Same objections.

16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· No.

17· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

18· · · · Q.· So it was always the case during your time

19· ·on the PKI team that when a potential service outage

20· ·was identified, an attempt was made to prevent that

21· ·service outage from occurring?

22· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.· Lacks

23· ·foundation.

24· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I would say that in --

25· ·from my experience, if we told the team that a

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·1· ·certificate was expiring and they then investigated

·2· ·how they used it and they determined that based on

·3· ·their business needs there was something they needed

·4· ·to change, then I believe they made the changes.

·5· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

·6· · · · Q.· Would it surprise you to know that a

·7· ·business team had decided to allow a service outage

·8· ·to occur by virtue of a certificate expiration?

·9· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.· Assumes

10· ·facts not in evidence.· Argumentative.

11· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I've not heard that.

12· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

13· · · · Q.· So that would be surprising to you?

14· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Same objections.

15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I've not heard of anyone

16· ·doing that.

17· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

18· · · · Q.· So is it fair to say that would be unusual?

19· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Same objections.

20· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I can just say that in my

21· ·experience I have not heard it.

22· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

23· · · · Q.· Okay.· Is it fair to say that when the PKI

24· ·team was investigating certificate expirations, its

25· ·sole goal was just to notify the relevant business

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·1· · · · Q.· And was that being done to mitigate

·2· ·potential service outages?

·3· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

·4· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I guess that's what's written

·5· ·here:

·6· · · · · · "The desire is to identify what may

·7· · · · · · break when the iPhone Device Sub-CA

·8· · · · · · expires and determine if anything can

·9· · · · · · be done to mitigate potential service

10· · · · · · outages."

11· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

12· · · · Q.· Why was it desirable to mitigate potential

13· ·service outages?

14· · · · A.· Service outage doesn't sound like a good

15· ·thing, if that's not what you intended.· So it's

16· ·really just -- again, it just goes back to really

17· ·challenging the team to really think about what the

18· ·impact could be.· If it's not what they intend, then

19· ·something needs to be done.

20· · · · Q.· In your experience, were service outages

21· ·generally something that folks at Apple attempted to

22· ·avoid?

23· · · · A.· Yes.· If a service is expected to be up

24· ·and running, then you want that service to be up

25· ·and running as much as possible.

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·1· · · · Q.· Is it your understanding that "iPhone

·2· ·Device CA" as used there is a reference to what we

·3· ·have been discussing as the iPhone Device Sub-CA?

·4· · · · A.· Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· Okay.· So is this email discussing renewal

·6· ·of the iPhone Device Sub-CA?

·7· · · · A.· It appears to be talking about renewal.

·8· · · · Q.· So was renewal of the iPhone Device Sub-CA

·9· ·one of the potential fixes that was being considered

10· ·in response to the impending expiration of the

11· ·iPhone Device Sub-CA?

12· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Objection.· Lacks foundation.

13· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I wouldn't call it a "fix."

14· ·But, as I mentioned before, when a certificate

15· ·expires, then you take action to determine whether

16· ·you still need to use that type of certificate and

17· ·create a new one.· That's just standard practice.

18· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

19· · · · Q.· I'm not trying to mince words, but would

20· ·you refer to the renewal as a solution to the

21· ·impending expiration of the iPhone Device Sub-CA?

22· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Same objections.

23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Solution to what?

24· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

25· · · · Q.· Well, let me ask it this way:· Why were

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·1· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Please repeat the question.

·2· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

·3· · · · Q.· Sure.· Can you think of any time when Apple

·4· ·allowed a certificate to expire despite knowing that

·5· ·the expiration would cause an application to cease

·6· ·to function on customer devices?

·7· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Same objection.

·8· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I can say that I don't recall

·9· ·when we've had a Sub-CA certificate expiration and

10· ·we didn't take action on it.

11· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

12· · · · Q.· What would be the purpose of taking the

13· ·action on a Sub-CA certificate expiration?

14· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Object to the form.

15· ·Incomplete hypothetical.

16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So that we could -- my team

17· ·would create a new one if necessary.

18· ·BY MR. TEJTEL:

19· · · · Q.· But when you say "take action," what is

20· ·the goal sought to be accomplished by taking such

21· ·action?

22· · · · A.· To create a new certificate.

23· · · · Q.· For what purpose?

24· · · · · · MR. PILMER:· Objection.· Incomplete

25· ·hypothetical.

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