IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( OCTOBER 16, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 19 OF 37

______________________________________________________________

STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242.

 (214) 753-2349

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INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

ROBERT MIRANDA

Cross By MR. DRATEL............................................. 14

Redirect By MR. JACKS........................................... 59

Recross By MS. HOLLANDER........................................ 83

Recross By MR. WESTFALL......................................... 86

Recross By MR. DRATEL........................................... 92

MATTHEW LEVITT

Direct By MR. JONAS............................................. 101

DAWN GOLDBERG

Direct By MR. JONAS............................................. 132

Cross By MS. DUNCAN............................................. 163

Cross By MR. CLINE.............................................. 172

Redirect By MR. JONAS........................................... 175

Recross By MS. DUNCAN........................................... 179

STEVE McGONIGLE

Direct By MR. JONAS............................................. 179

Cross By MR. WESTFALL........................................... 200

Cross By MS. MORENO............................................. 202

Cross By MS. HOLLANDER.......................................... 219

Redirect By MR. JONAS........................................... 223

Recross By MR. WESTFALL......................................... 225

Recross By MS. HOLLANDER........................................ 226

MOHAMED SHORBAGI

Direct By Mr. Jacks............................................. 229

Government Exhibits

Government Exhibits Page

HLF Tax No. 10 152

HLF Tax No. 11 155

HLF Tax No. 1-9 157

Government's Exhibit MAYA Conf. 272

Defendants' Exhibits

Defendants' Exhibits Page

No. 1340, 1340A, 1342, 1342A Admitted into Evidence. 27

No. 1080-1082 Admitted into Evidence. 165

No. 1083 Admitted into Evidence. 170

No. 669 Admitted into Evidence. 214

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THE COURT: Let's take up the issue of Defense 

Exhibit No. 1340 and 1342. You wanted to try to get those in 

through Agent Miranda? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes.

THE COURT: And what is the state of mind issue that 

you see that these go to? 

MR. DRATEL: Well, that if a Hamas person is in 

charge of that hospital, which is this issue, that it is a 

problem for the Foundation because it is going to undercut the 

whole work of the foundation.

THE COURT: I thought that was it, but I wasn't 

sure.

MR. DRATEL: And also his efforts obviously to stop 

it.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, any other thoughts on that? 

MR. JACKS: Well, Your Honor, again, it is his own 

statements, and they -- As the cases state, generally a 

Defendant cannot introduce his own statements. And in terms 

of my understanding of the cases that permit a Defendant to 

introduce his own statements to show his state of mind, it is 

a very narrow exception for specific instances at specific 

times. And I don't believe that particular conversation falls 

into that category. It is a general conversation.

THE COURT: Who is the conversation with, the first 

one? 

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MR. DRATEL: With his brother. The second one is 

with his parents.

THE COURT: The hospital conversation is with the 

dad? 

MR. JACKS: And we don't believe it fits within the 

exception, Your Honor. Obviously he can get up and testify 

about it, but it is not within that exception. 

THE COURT: All right. And I think it does come in. 

It is arguable as far as what the conversation is subject to, 

but I think that is ultimately for the jury. It could be 

argued that it goes to the state of mind. 

So the objections to Defense Exhibit No. 1340 and 1342 

are overruled.

MR. DRATEL: I guess the accompanying audio, I will 

move those. We don't have those teed up, but we will get them 

ready. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I haven't looked at the 

entire transcript with a view toward there are other parts 

that are extraneous, but I will do that.

THE COURT: Take a look at those. A lot of it is 

about the hospital. There were other things, but most of it 

would -- 

MR. DRATEL: I think I have -- 

THE COURT: Did you say you were going to read 

those, or do you want to play the tapes? 

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MR. DRATEL: I don't want to play the tapes, and it 

is in Arabic and I don't have the translation scrolling. At 

some point I may want to play those parts, but I have a couple 

of sections that I would like to read.

THE COURT: At some point when you determine that, 

let the Government know -- 

MR. DRATEL: I will try to show them right now where 

they are.

THE COURT: All right. And then with respect -- And 

I think that covers the remaining exhibits as far as Agent 

Miranda.

With respect to the motion to exclude the second trial 

testimony of Dr. Matthew Levitt, I have read the briefs and 

the cases, and I am going to deny the motion. I think they 

are entitled to put him on. I don't think there is any undue 

prejudice in allowing them to call him a second time. 

I understand your objections based on the Mejia case, but 

that is just going to have to be a question by question issue. 

If a particular question is asked that you think is improper, 

you just need to object and I will make a ruling on it at that 

point. But I will permit the Government to put on Doctor 

Levitt again. 

Any other issues, then, that we need to take up this 

morning? 

MR. JONAS: No, Your Honor, not from the Government.

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THE COURT: Anything from over here? All right. 

We are still short a few jurors, so we are wait for a few 

minutes.

Yes? 

MR. CLINE: May I mention one thing, Your Honor, as 

long as we have got a few minutes here. 

It is a defense issue we won't see for some time, but his 

name is Edward Abington. We filed a CIPA notice which 

addresses part of the issue involving him. We filed that with 

Ms. Helms, I think. We are going to be filing an unsealed 

motion that will address a related aspect of his testimony. I 

just wanted to alert the Court that that is coming probably 

sometime this week, or maybe early next week we will file 

that. 

And then there was that -- Your Honor may recall that 

discovery order that Your Honor entered I think shortly before 

trial, if I recall correctly, and we filed a supplemental memo 

and the Government disagreed with our view of what should 

happen going forward on that. And that evidence, were it to 

be produced to us, would relate to Mr. Abington's testimony. 

So we have those three things -- 

THE COURT: Is this where you were seeking to have 

some evidence produced to the Court in camera, or am I 

thinking of something else?

MR. CLINE: We were. Essentially what happened is 

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Your Honor ordered some production, the Government -- 

THE COURT: I do recall. 

And Mr. Jacks, Mr. Jonas, I am going to require 

production in camera. I am not sure -- So we are all on the 

same page, we actually have a draft order but I haven't 

finished it. There was some documents that I had ordered 

produced that was Rule 16 and perhaps Brady. It was those -- 

MR. CLINE: It was the reports by -- 

THE COURT: CIA reports.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, can we do this at a sidebar? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

MR. JONAS: First with regard to the CIPA matter 

that Mr. Cline has raised, we forwarded that notice to the 

CIA, and they are going to be the ones who will be required to 

respond. So I reached out to them again today to find out 

about them getting response to that. I think we have a few 

weeks to deal with that, because I doubt he is getting on in 

the next couple of weeks.

MR. CLINE: It depends on how fast you finish. 

MR. JONAS: With the matter of production, we don't 

have a problem with that, but collectively we looked at over a 

thousand documents, and we did not know which ones mentions 

zakat committees and which ones didn't. We were looking for 

which ones said these zakat committees would be favorable to 

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the Defense and which was zero. This stuff is like gold to 

the Government. 

How does Your Honor want to proceed? I mean, in talking 

to the CIA again, I know in a brief discussion with them a 

while ago they said it wouldn't be a problem. I think they 

may have to have a classified computer down here. It is a 

thousand documents. Your Honor, it is time consuming. I 

don't know how you want to do it.

THE COURT: I probably won't have time to look at a 

thousand documents. If there is some kind of an index or --

MR. JONAS: There is an index. I am not sure if the 

index will be helpful. Let me reach out to the CIA again 

during the break, or maybe I will just step out during Agent 

Miranda's testimony and try to reach out to them and see if 

they can get the index down here, and see if you can start 

with that.

MR. CLINE: And Your Honor, one possible way to deal 

with this is -- And maybe Mr. Jonas could propose this to the 

CIA. We, the Defense, have clearances for this stuff. It may 

well be, as Mr. Jonas says, that there is nothing helpful in 

there to the Defense even under our view. If there is not, of 

course we are not going to pushing to introduce it. We are 

happy to keep it out. 

But if we could look at this material, we could go to 

Washington and look at the material and just go through it. 

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First of all, that would narrow it substantially because I 

suspect a lot of it is irrelevant. The thousand documents I 

mean. It is not irrelevant. They are peripheral, let's say. 

My guess is there are going to be a few documents in 

there that we are going to have a different view of than the 

Government. That is just the way it normally is. And we 

could probably limit the necessity for the Court to review to 

a small fraction of that thousand documents if they would give 

us the opportunity -- 

THE COURT: That would be helpful.

MR. JONAS: I understand that would be helpful, and 

I will propose it to the CIA. I seriously doubt they are 

going to agree to that, because there is very sensitive 

information in some of these cables. And even though the 

Defense attorneys have the clearance -- 

THE COURT: Can they excise what they consider to be 

sensitive, or is that just too --

MR. JONAS: It is very time consuming. And they 

would need our guidance as to which ones are even relevant, 

and we are here not there. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Let me -- If we can take this one step 

at a time, let me reach out to them.

THE COURT: And if there is some of it that 

redacting or there are some documents that don't have any of 

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that, maybe they could agree to those at least. Any way to 

narrow it.

MR. JONAS: Let me make a suggestion here. If Your 

Honor wants, and I would just suggest we do this, if Your 

Honor wants to speak to the CIA yourself -- 

THE COURT: If they want to that is fine. I don't 

mind it.

MR. JONAS: They may not want Defense counsel in the 

room at the time. And we are fine not being there ourselves. 

I can arrange the call. But again, let me talk to them and 

see what they want to do. I am just trying to expedite 

things. I think cutting out the middleman may help. 

So I will step out during Agent Miranda's testimony and 

try to reach out to them this morning and try to get some more 

information.

MR. CLINE: That is fine. And just to clarify what 

I am suggesting and asking that Mr. Jonas suggest to the CIA, 

they wouldn't even have to give us copies of this stuff. 

Maybe even no note beyond just a bare description of the date 

of the document so we can specify the ones that we think Your 

Honor needs to look at. 

Any protective measure they want to keep us from doing 

something that they are worried about is fine. It just would 

cut through a lot of time, and it is just the case -- I mean, 

going back to that Supreme Court case Alderman, we are the 

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advocates here and Your Honor of course isn't. We have been 

in this case forever. I think it is just inevitable that we 

are going to have a better idea of what is helpful to us than 

you are. 

MR. JONAS: I understand, but it is also the 

prosecutor's responsibility to make that first decision to 

provide the material, and if we are exercising our discretion 

and that is what is helpful or not. And if we are wrong it is 

going to come back and haunt us. 

Having said that, I think the only protective measure the 

CIA would agree to is yet to be invented. It was in the movie 

Men In Black. If we could flash you and remove your memory 

after you walk out to the CIA, they would probably agree to 

that. 

In all serious, when we take notes, no matter what we are 

writing down, we have to leave those notes with the CIA and 

they scrub them and send them to us a few weeks later. So 

even if you took notes, you are not walking out of there with 

those notes. 

MS. SHAPIRO: And that is not even the real problem. 

The real problem is that each of these cables is intermixed 

with information that people wouldn't have a need to know and 

would not be cleared. I am not even sure that -- Some of them 

may be above the secret level. And I have a fair amount of 

experience with this. I am about 99.9 percent sure that that 

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will not be permitted. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I just want to add for the record 

here that some of us, myself, Ms. Duncan, and I am not sure 

who else, already have top secret clearances, 

compartmentalized clearances. So if in fact the issue is that 

this stuff -- I understand the need to know. But if it is 

above the secret level, some of us have been cleared for top 

secret compartmentalized information. I think Mr. Cline is, 

too. So it is not an argument that our clearances are not 

sufficient. 

MS. CADEDDU: And I would point out also, I want to 

add to what Ms. Hollander said. When we were cleared, that 

would include me, they cleared us for top secret. They didn't 

give us top secret because they didn't believe there were any 

documents that were top secret that we needed to see, but we 

have all been cleared for the top secret. We went through the 

clearance process for top secret.

MR. JONAS: It is more than that. It is more than 

that. I will -- 

MR. CLINE: And the bottom line for us, and I 

understand what Mr. Jonas is saying, but anything we can do to 

expedite this -- We are happy to do travel to Washington and 

look at documents. We would like to speed it along.

MR. JONAS: We appreciate that. And Ms. Shapiro 

would like to have us over to her house for dinner. 

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We are not trying to be obstructive here.

THE COURT: I understand that, and somebody else 

will be making those decisions and we will go from there. 

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, it seems perhaps the order 

of witnesses has changed somewhat, and one of these witnesses 

may come on earlier than I had anticipated, Mr. McGonigle. 

And all my materials are back at the hotel, so if it is all 

right with the Court, at some point in time I may leave the 

courtroom.

THE COURT: That is fine. 

(The following was had in open court.) 

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed. 

And Mr. Dratel, you are up. 

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Dratel: 

Q. Good morning. 

A. Good morning.

Q. On your direct testimony, I think it was close to the 

beginning, you talked about intelligence investigations. Do 

you recall?

A. Yes, sir.

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Q. And you talked a little bit about the search of Mr. 

Ashqar's house in December of '93. Correct? You didn't 

participate in that, but you talked about the general nature 

of how those are conducted. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And they are done obviously at a time when the person is 

not at home because the object is to search the house for 

documents and other materials.

A. They are done so it is covert.

Q. Right. And so the person doesn't even know when he comes 

back. 

A. In theory.

Q. Yes. And as a result, you would have to monitor in 

advance to know when the person is going to be gone for a 

sufficient amount of time. 

A. Yes.

Q. So if the person was just going to the grocery store, you 

wouldn't go in and spend hours in the house, or if you didn't 

know where they were going, if you didn't know how long they 

would be gone. 

A. Possibly.

Q. It might put the intelligence operation in jeopardy if 

you took a chance like that. Right?

A. There are ways around that.

Q. There are ways around having the person come home?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. So you could interfere with that in other ways?

A. It is possible, yes.

Q. Like a car stop or something like that?

A. It is possible.

Q. Okay. But that would require, obviously, resources and a 

lot of coordination. 

A. Yes.

Q. During your direct testimony, you put in I think through 

you El-Mezain Wiretap No. 10. Do you recall that?

A. Can you repeat your question? 

Q. During your direct testimony you put in an exhibit called 

El-Mezain Wiretap No. 10. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that was a fax to Mr. El-Mezain. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. I am just going to put this on the elmo. And that is 

the -- I am just going to zoom out. That is the Arabic 

version. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And the date of this fax is -- I will zoom in so you can 

see it if you don't recall. Can you read it?

A. Yes, sir. It reads November 13th, 1994.

Q. Right. And that is about three years before October 8th, 

1997, the designation of Hamas as a foreign terrorist 

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organization?

A. Yes.

Q. And this fax is not addressed to Mr. El-Mezain. Right? 

His name doesn't appear anywhere on it?

A. No.

Q. And there is a note from somebody about brother Osama in 

the margin?

A. Yes.

Q. And you are assuming that it is a particular -- Osama who 

is mentioned in other documents. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. But you don't know that for sure?

A. No.

Q. There may be many Osamas? 

A. There may be many Osamas, but not that many that work for 

the IAP.

Q. But you don't know necessarily that the person who faxed 

this worked for the IAP. You don't know for sure that the 

person who wrote that note is the same one. That is an 

assumption you are making based on context. 

A. Context and my interview of Osama.

MR. DRATEL: I object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You asked him what it was based on. He 

didn't get into it. You can't limit him like that. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Now, for Demonstrative No. 16, that is 

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the demonstrative with the phone calls back and forth. 

A. Yes.

Q. Can you read that?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that large enough to read on the screen?

A. It is.

Q. The reason I ask is the contrast here is very difficult. 

I can only see that one clearly.

Now, with respect to those New Jersey Bell records. 

Right? Those are the records of Mr. El-Mezain's phone. 

A. Yes.

Q. Right? And those are the calls to the number associated 

in the Marzook phonebook with Doctor Rantisi. 

A. The two numbers, correct.

Q. And those calls are in a two-day period, July 5th and 6th 

of 1993. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. More than four years before October 8th, 1997. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And if you look, I have highlighted the calls, and there 

are six calls total. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And five of them are one-minute calls. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And in fact, if you look at the ones after the break 

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there, which to the 3313, they are all made one minute after 

the other. Right?

A. I think that is right. Can you just maybe enlarge that a 

little bit? 

Q. Oh, certainly. I can do more. I think we have room to 

do more. 

A. I think we can see that. My response is yes.

Q. Okay. And you don't know whether Mr. El-Mezain You don't 

know who spoke to whom in that conversation or in any of those 

conversations, if they were conversations at all. 

A. Right.

Q. It doesn't say in that address book whether it is a home 

or office number. 

A. In the Marzook book? 

Q. Yes. 

A. No.

Q. So if it is an office, it could be other people in that 

office. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And this is -- Doctor Rantisi was one of the people who 

was deported in late November/December 1992 by the Israelis to 

Lebanon. Right?

A. He was.

Q. And isn't it true that in July 1993, seven months later, 

he still had not been returned?

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A. That is correct.

Q. So he wasn't even there?

A. That is correct.

Q. So Mr. El-Mezain even if it was Mr. El-Mezain calling 

that number, he would not have spoken to Doctor Rantisi. 

A. No, not necessarily.

Q. Now, with respect also to Marzook, the Marzook 

phonebook -- 

MR. DRATEL: If I may just have a second, Your 

Honor?

THE COURT: Sure. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) You went through the Marzook phonebook 

trying to line up some telephone numbers. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Among other things with that. 

MR. DRATEL: Can we have page 58 of the Marzook 

Phonebook, please? Thank you. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) I think it is the bottom part of the 

page. Now, there is one call on your demonstrative where you 

have a call going to Syria from Mr. El-Mezain's house. 

Correct?

A. Right.

Q. And that is March 27th, 1994. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And that is three and a half years before October 8th, 

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1997. 

A. Right.

Q. And you said it was to a number Moustafa Qanou in the 

middle. See that? 3711159?

A. Yes.

Q. And there is a Munir right underneath that with basically 

the same number. It has a prefix for Syria, but the last 

digits -- 

A. Right.

Q. That is how you connected that to Moustafa Qanou?

A. And the other numbers across, sir.

Q. Right. But in fact those ones were crossed out in the 

notebook. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. So you are assuming that that was Moustafa 

righteousness's number and it is not Munir's number and put 

next to Moustafa righteousness and then crossed out?

A. No, that is not my assumption.

Q. Now, again on this exhibit, the Demonstrative No. 16, all 

those calls, except for the calls between Mr. Abu Baker and 

his brother, all those calls are before 1995. Right? On this 

demonstrative?

A. Yes.

Q. And in fact, of all the people to whom these calls were 

made, the only people who were ever designated were Khalid 

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Mishal in 2003. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And Rantisi was designated as well?

A. And Ahmad al-Alami.

Q. Ahmad al-Alami, the Tehran number. 

A. That is right.

Q. But not at that time that these calls --

A. There was no designation process at that time.

Q. Now, you also admitted El-Mezain Wiretap No. 14. Right? 

That is the voicemail from Khalid Mishal. 

A. Right.

Q. Do you recall the date on that?

A. '94. I don't have the exact date. October '94, I 

believe, but it is on the demonstrative.

Q. So it is October of '94. Right? Three years before 

October 8th, 1997. 

A. I think it is October. We can look.

Q. It is October 4th. 

A. It is before 1997. That is right.

Q. And it talks about a conference in Turkey. 

A. Right.

Q. And Mr. El-Mezain didn't go to a conference -- Withdrawn. 

Mr. El-Mezain didn't go to Turkey that month. 

A. I am not aware that he did.

Q. And as we have seen before when Ms. Hollander used, there 

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are searches that can be done with respect to people coming in 

and leaving the country. 

A. Actually searches on people entering the country, sir.

Q. Entering. Okay. So if someone comes back from 

somewhere. Right?

A. Not exactly as you describe it.

Q. Demonstrative No. 6, the family relationships, do you 

remember that one?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that -- Can you see the part basically about Mr. 

El-Mezain Is that legible?

A. No, not really, but we will work through that.

Q. Let me try to zoom in, because this is obviously a Xerox. 

Is that better?

A. That is good enough, sir.

Q. Okay. Okay. Now, when you wrote here that Ahmed Hamdan 

was a member of Hamas, you are saying that you base that on 

Agent Burns' interview. Correct?

A. Right.

Q. And in fact, didn't Mr. El-Mezain tell her that -- Mr. 

El-Mezain told her that he was -- about his relationship with 

Mr. Ahmed Hamdan. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And in fact, didn't he say that his cousin Mr. Ahmed 

Hamdan was a supporter of Hamas? Correct?

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A. I would have to look at the 302, sir.

MR. DRATEL: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Right. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) So that demonstrative is incorrect. He 

wasn't -- Mr. El-Mezain didn't say he was a member of Hamas, 

his cousin was a member. He said his cousin was a supporter. 

Correct?

A. He said he was a supporter and a deportee along with 

those 400 --

Q. So -- 

A. I am sorry. I haven't finished.

Q. So you don't distinguish between member and supporter. 

A. What I was attempting to answer was that --

Q. Do you distinguish -- 

THE COURT: Counsel, you cut him off. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: First off, Mr. El-Mezain said that 

Hamdan was a supporter, but he also said he was a deportee 

with the 415 other individuals that went to Marj al-Zahour. 

Those individuals were largely Hamas members or members of 

another terrorist organization. 

In addition, Mr. El-Mezain through his deposition hasn't 

been exactly forthright -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. That is 

completely -- 

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THE COURT: Let's not go there.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Mr. El-Mezain also told Agent Burns that 

he was unaware if Mr. Hamdan, his cousin, supported the 

military wing of Hamas. Correct?

A. Did you say support, or was a military wing member? 

Q. No. Did Mr. El-Mezain didn't he also tell her he was 

unaware whether Mr. Hamdan was a supporter of the military 

wing of Hamas?

A. May I see that again? 

Q. Sure. 

A. That is right.

Q. Thank you. By the way, the deportation that talks about 

in 1992, that was the same incident we talked about during 

this trial that brought international condemnation on Israel. 

Right?

A. I don't know about the international condemnation.

Q. You weren't here when Doctor Levitt testified about that?

A. I don't recall that section of his testimony. If that is 

what he said, that is what he said.

Q. Now, you know who Mahmoud Marzook is. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. He was a general in the Palestinian Authority in the 

'90s. 

A. Right.

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Q. During this relevant period we have been talking about. 

A. Right.

Q. And he was Mousa Abu Marzook's brother, and is still his 

brother. Correct?

A. Right.

Q. And they are on opposite sides even though they are 

brothers. One is Palestinian Authority; one is Hamas. 

A. Right.

Q. And they are -- And Mr. El-Mezain would tell people who 

called from Gaza to say hello to General Marzook, the brother, 

Mahmoud. Correct?

A. I think I recall something like that a long time ago.

Q. Now, you didn't put General Marzook on the chart. Right?

A. He is not Hamas.

Q. Abu Marzook's brother?

A. No.

Q. But relationships -- You have heard of the Dar el-Salam 

Hospital. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In Gaza. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And Holy Land provided funding to that hospital. 

A. Yes.

Q. And when you talked about family. Right? There is also 

another family member -- 

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MR. DRATEL: Well, I am going to move No. 1340 and 

1342 into evidence at this time, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Did you also want the A portions with 

that? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes; No. 1340-A and 1342-A.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, same objection? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Those have been overruled, and 

Defendants' Exhibit No. 1340 and 1340-A and 1342 and 1342-A 

are admitted. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I am informed the way we 

did it on our exhibit list is that No. 1341 was the audio for 

1340, and 1343 was the audio -- I think it is better that we 

conform it to the A, and we will change that.

THE COURT: All right. 

MR. DRATEL: Thank you. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Now, Ahmed Nimer is a person who is 

affiliated with Hamas. Correct? There is an Ahmed Nimer who 

is affiliated with Hamas?

A. I think that is correct.

Q. And he is a cousin of Mr. El-Mezain. 

A. I think that is correct.

Q. And I just want to show you -- 

MR. DRATEL: If I may approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

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Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) No. 1340 and 1342 are telephone 

conversations intercepted by the wiretap on Mr. El-Mezain's 

phone. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And could you just give the dates of those two, please?

A. No. 1342 is dated 10/26/1995. No. 1340 is dated 

0/25/1995.

Q. Thank you. And I will show you No. 1340. Can you see 

that?

A. Yes.

Q. So the participants in this call are Mohammad El-Mezain. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. That is Mr. El-Mezain. Right?

A. The Defendant, yes.

Q. And his brother Dawud El-Mezain.

A. I wasn't aware that that is his brother.

Q. You weren't here when Agent Burns testified that he had a 

brother named Dawud?

A. I may have heard that.

MR. JACKS: I don't believe there is any testimony 

in the record -- 

MR. DRATEL: I asked Agent Burns and she said yes. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Let's go to page 3. And we will -- Can 

you read that?

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A. Yes.

Q. I will be Mr. El-Mezain and you will be Dawud El-Mezain. 

Okay?

A. Right.

Q. "We are in a catastrophe."

A. "What?"

Q. "A catastrophe with our cousin."

A. "Who?"

Q. "Mr. Ahmad."

A. "Why?"

Q. "Because of the hospital."

A. "What happened?"

Q. "When he stopped coming to the hospital three months ago 

he was in jail."

A. "Okay."

Q. "The people of the hospital brought his son and hired him 

without an intermediate or any qualifications."

A. "Okay."

Q. "They signed a contract with him for three months as a 

training period to try him to see if he can do it or not. If 

he couldn't do it, everyone will go on his way and those who 

want to fill out a new application, let them fill out a new 

application and they would be hired anew if they passed. The 

policy. It is the policy, that is."

A. "Ah."

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Q. "His son Ismail, it looks like they put him in the lab."

A. "Ah."

Q. "He was in the lab and he applied and he used to get out 

wrong results. And the -- based on the results were wrong, so 

he didn't pass the evaluation. A resolution was made by the 

chairman of the board of directors that the new hires who want 

to submit new applications for work should do so in order to 

be hired. Everybody applied except Ismail. So Ismail came 

and told Doctor Mufid, 'Save yourself the trouble. I am not 

going to apply. I have been appointed, and it is better for 

you to keep quiet and not to tell me this kind of stuff.' Of 

course I learned this stuff because -- on Sunday from Mohamed 

al-Najar. The youth didn't tell me that. So I called him 

Saturday in Dallas. I had just arrived from a trip which God 

only knows how it went. He told me, 'Man, you want a shop in 

an alley of your own, this is yours and this is ours. Let 

people take a their hands off of the camp so that people can 

enter.' He said that Sheikh Ahmad is saying, 'If you don't 

keep quiet, I will stand up in the hospital and say, "This 

hospital is ours, and that hospital belongs to so and so 

people, and those who like it, fine, and those who don't like 

it should leave."'"

A. "What is that?"

Q. "What?"

A. "To whom it belongs?"

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Q. "To him, that is."

A. "How come?"

Q. "Yeah. Ahmad is saying that this hospital belongs to so 

and so parties. He who wants to work, let him, and he who 

doesn't work should not work. Of course all of that is wrong 

from beginning to end; talk which harms and doesn't benefit. 

There are some people who are waiting for such a day, and I 

found that the youths are upset. We told them not to get 

upset. 'I will make the call right now.' And we decided not 

to resort to -- until at the end when all ways were blocked. 

So Doctor Mufid, go to hell. There is an appointment without 

a hiring process and stuff like that, and this is our 

hospital, and the corruption at the hospital must be 

corrected. It is the first hospital to serve all kinds of 

people, my brother. You say 'my hospital.' Not all of the 

women are veiled. One is like this and one is like that. Not 

at all. This so and so people, this female doctor, and this 

female doctor?"

A. "Who?"

Q. "This female doctor wears knee-length clothes. I mean, 

there are four employees and this person works with this party 

while that person works with this party and stuff like that. 

I verified the talk and it is true. Even if I am alone, he 

said. Those are the corrupt ones, the collaborators and -- 

very ugly talk. He said, 'You made Abou Sakr greedy. You did 

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this, that, and I don't know what else.' Before I called him 

I told his father, "Father, may God be pleased with you. Go 

tell him to stop his evil. Let him be fair and that if the 

solution is hiring his son, the youths are willing to hire his 

son so that the problem ends, but in a way in which the 

chairman of the board of directors, a person like Mufid, is 

not destroyed by them.' They tell him, 'Resign from the 

hospital and stay and this week four clinics will be open 

here.' And then he comes and treats the hospital in such a 

manner? By God, this is not right. So our brother in God 

went and told Sami al-Agha, he went and told Sami al-Agha that 

'If you're not quiet, we will say this and that, kick the 

people out, and take over the hospital within two hours.' 

"So I want to find Aboul Khodary, I want to see, and I 

want to see this and that person. Of course when they told me 

that stuff, I told his father. 'Tell them, Father, by God. 

Let him find his occupation in Dawa'a to God the Almighty, and 

correcting people and stay away from the hospital. Otherwise 

if he starts circulating this kind of talk around, it is over. 

I mean, there won't be a connection or anything else. He told 

me, 'Son, I will do whatever you want.' I told him, 'Yes, 

Father. Go, by God.' 

"It was 10:00 at night. He took the car with Halima and 

Mahmoud and they went over to his place. And I told them, 'I 

will call with you later.' I called him for an hour over the 

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phone and the man's heart won't change. The man, do you know 

what he is saying? He is saying, 'I want everything to be 

under my control,' he told him. I asked him, 'Who are you, 

sir? What do you mean "everything under my control?"' He 

said, 'I mean appointing people.' I told him, 'This is not 

your business. The hospital belongs to all Muslims. It 

doesn't belong to Zeid or Amr. And the people who are in the 

board are approved by us, and this is the Foundation's 

business and not your business.' He said, 'My friend, take it 

away from under my control.' I told him, 'Yes, I will take it 

away from under your control.' I told him, 'Be the head of 

reform and not the head of corruption.' Honestly, I mean, I 

said extremely harsh things to him. I said, 'By God, I resort 

to God from your work, from listening to you and from your 

tongue.'"

A. "You told him that."

Q. "Yes, I told him that. I told him, "Man, fear God. This 

is people's sweat. All over the world right now there is not 

one hospital like it, not among the organizations which built 

things in the inside. Haider Abdel Shafi was visiting us a 

few days ago -- two months ago, I mean, he said great things 

about people in Gaza, about the Foundation's work here and 

there and while people are going and coming to the buffet are 

heaping praise right and left, you are coming to say you want 

to do this. Do you think that you can do what you please? He 

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said, 'I don't keep quiet in what is right. I vent out at 

al-Khodary. Why did you keep Abou Sakr? Why did you keep --" 

everybody in the country agree that he is a fool. 

A. "He is a fool, Sheik."

Q. I am going to go to page 8. I am going to start right 

here. 

"And they keep coming and going. What do you guys want? 

This is a national organization we told you. And because one 

female employee wore long or short dress and because you want 

to divert attention, you would rise the entire world against 

you? And what do you mean I want everything under my control? 

No, in management, the general business, there is nothing 

called everything under your control. Let everything be under 

your control, my brother. By God, I don't know what to do 

Abou Ahmad."

A. "Does he want to a bribe?"

Q. "What?"

A. "Does he want to a bribe?"

Q. "He wants everything to be under his control."

A. "Does he want to get a bribe like highway robbers? If 

that is what he wants we will give him a bribe. Tell him 

that."

Q. "By God, we won't pay him a bribe."

A. "If that is what he wants -- If he wants to be highway 

robbers, huh? A highway robber means a thief -- he should 

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understand that. What is this son-of-a-gun?"

Q. "By Almighty God, yesterday I was -- Do you know, the 

entire sector would seethe for Aboul Naji, the entire sector 

in the West Bank would seethe for Mufid, the entire sector and 

the West Bank would seethe for Omar. Dr. Sami al-Agha, 

Zakaria's brother, is an honor to the entire world. He is an 

honorable person, a radiologist and a well-known person. He 

has -- all of them have Ph.D.s. I am telling him, 'Abou 

Mohamed, neither I nor you know anything about the hospital, 

my brother. Let's out in its administrative and practical 

affairs.'"

A. "He needs a beating."

Q. "Huh?"

A. "He needs a beating."

Q. "Who needs a beating? He is the one who gives beatings, 

my brother. He is with them or against them under the slogan, 

'For God or his profit.'" 

I am going to go to page 15 and start under the yellow 

line. 

"God forbid, if something happens, that's it, many happy 

returns to you. I mean, he would have ruined matters for the 

whole Foundation in this manner, and this is what people over 

here and over there are waiting for."

A. "Yes."

Q. "Because of someone who is -- "

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A. "So, what are you the legal action you are talking 

about?"

Q. "Huh?"

A. "What legal action?"

Q. "Legal action? I would call the U.S. embassy."

A. "Yes."

Q. "There are legal action but, of course, this is wrong, by 

Almighty God. I can line up 60 attorneys over there. This 

guy is an idiot and I know, there will be spilled blood then 

and it won't benefit Zeid or Amr. By God, how about if 

someone did something to Mufid, Omar, or Aboul Naji in order 

to banish them from Khan Younis? Gaza and Khan Younis..."

I am going to go to No. 1342. And this is between Mr. 

El-Mezain and his parents. Right? I will put it on here. 

A. Yes.

Q. I am going to start under the yellow line. MO is Mr. 

El-Mezain?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And just to go back, MF is Mr. El-Mezain's father?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. "It is a different issue from Ahmad's father, they hired 

Ahmad's son, Ismail, when Ahmad was in jail and they put him 

-- they put everybody in the hospital in training for three 

months."

A. "Yes."

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Q. "And after the three months were up, they were evaluating 

people to see if he should continue or not. Ahmad's son 

turned out to be incompetent in the specimens he was 

analyzing, and they were prescribing the wrong medications, 

and Ahmad's know. And Ahmad's anger is not for God's sake. 

It is anger to have his way. And Father, if I am in charge of 

something, I must try to please Almighty God, and I don't want 

to please any other human being. My brother, God willing, 

even if I sell my children, by God, I will not be negligent 

with him. But I don't want to -- " 

A. "May God make things easy."

Q. "But I don't want to -- "

A. "May God makes things easy for you, be pleased with you, 

and shield you from human's evil."

Q. "But just listen to me, Father. Let me tell you. For me 

to hire -- But for me to hire an employee who doesn't know how 

to work, by God, this is not from the religion. They also 

told me, man, a decision has been reached by the entire board 

of directors. Go tell Hajj Mohamed what happened. Tell them, 

man, Ismail will stay and we will give him his salary. But 

instead of him being a person in charge, he will train in 

order to learn how to do the work. He will be in training for 

six months. And then Abou Mohamed comes and says this kind of 

stuff. By God, this is wrong of him and shows lack of 

religion with him, this kind of things. And for your own 

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knowledge, there is not a single person who heard about the 

issue but got upset at Abou Mohamed. By God, Father, the 

issue is not like the hospital belongs to Abou Ibrahim, 

Father."

A. "I -- Son -- We know the hospital doesn't belong to you."

Q. "By God, it doesn't belong to me, and neither does it 

belong to anybody. It is a public venue for all Muslims, 

Father. Am I going to -- How did I know Mahmoud wanted to 

work at the hospital?"

A. "Son, son."

Q. "Don't be upset with me. I have no other person in the 

world for you to get upset with me." 

Can you see -- Okay. We are going to read between the 

yellow lines here. 

A. Yes, sir. Should I start? 

Q. Yes, sir. 

A. "I went to him at his end at night, at 12 o'clock that 

night. He said, 'Never, never, never.' Okay. What should I 

do with him? Should I fight with him, son?"

Q. "No, Father, I told you don't fight with him."

A. "Yes, I tried to convince him peacefully."

Q. "No, no, no. Between you and me, I want to get my aunt 

on the line and speak with her and tell her -- What."

A. "Listen to me. Listen to me."

Q. "Yes."

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"He doesn't listen to your aunt, he doesn't listen to 

anybody or anything. He says, 'I want martyrdom. I want to 

die.'"

A. Is that my line? 

Q. I am sorry. I apologize. 

A. "He doesn't listen to your aunt, he doesn't listen to 

anybody or anything. He is saying, 'I want martyrdom. I want 

to die.'"

Q. "Let him go to hell and die."

A. "He won't listen to your aunt or anyone else."

Q. "Man, let him go to hell and die. Do those who want to 

die -- I mean, Ahmad Nimr died. Abou Ibrahim died. The world 

won't stop. But, one should leave people in agreement behind 

him, that people are not in dissension because of him." 

I just want to go back to page 8 for just a moment, and 

if you can start with "shut down business." Do you see that 

at the third or fourth from the bottom?

A. Yes, sir. "Shut down business -- he wants to shut down 

business? By God, may God guide him, may God guide him."

Q. "This is due to -- this is due to a lack of religion." 

And it says crying there. Right?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Okay.

A. "Why are you crying? Stop crying."

Q. "I am crying because I feel that you are still upset with 

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me."

A. "No. I'm not upset with you nor am I mad at you. By 

God, I'm not mad at you. By God, I say prayers for you day 

and night and say, 'May God bring you good people around you. 

May God assist you. May God make you successful. May God 

keep people's evil away from you.' Why is Ahmad acting that 

way? He is neither educated, nor does he understand."

Q. "Ahmad pretends that he is the one who understands 

things, Father, while he doesn't."

A. "I went to him. I went to him at his house."

Q. "By God, he didn't respect you. By God, he didn't 

respect you. And he is circulating among the people that this 

hospital belongs to El-Mezain's household."

A. "He didn't respect me. He didn't respect me. He didn't 

respect me, and neither did he tell me -- At the end I told 

him, 'Do as you please. God will make things easy for 

Mohamed. He will be with him.' Ahmad didn't respect me 

neither did he respect any other person."

Q. Thank you. Now let's go to page -- This is the last one. 

Okay. Can you see under the highlighted --

A. Yes.

Q. "Would Ahmad Nimr dare to do the same thing at Nasser 

hospital. Would Ahmad Nimr dare to do the same thing with a 

governmental agency? Let him fear God with his beard." 

That is the mother; that is El-Mezain's mother, MM. 

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A. Right. "It is because his son is --"

Q. "Give me my father so I can tell him that."

A. "Son, don't upset yourself. Forget all of them."

Q. "Mother, he lies to you. He lies to you, unfortunately. 

His beard is leaky, his beard is leaky. He doesn't possess 

any religion, this guy."

A. "Son, we're not intervening in anything. May God be 

pleased with you."

Q. "Don't go to see him, don't greet him, and don't say to 

him more than 'Peace be with you. And peace be with you, 

too.' And I ask you, by God, to get my aunt to make a vow and 

tell her, 'Be upset with him if he doesn't straighten up.'"

A. "By God, I don't answer her, son. By God, I don't answer 

her, son."

Q. "Give me my father, by God."

A. "I went to her when he was in jail."

Q. "Give me -- Okay, by God, he was giving people hard time 

in Lebanon, he was giving people hard time in jail inside and 

outside. Mother, what do you want to tell me -- When a person 

grows up, he should get wiser. But he -- I ask almighty God 

for forgiveness." 

Now, Mr. El-Mezain's parents live in Gaza. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. So that is where they are during this conversation?

A. It is my understanding.

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Q. And that family part is not on your demonstrative either. 

Right?

A. No.

Q. Now, I want to turn to Elbarasse Search No. 29. Do you 

remember that document?

A. If you hold it up --

Q. Sure. This is the Arabic?

A. Yes, I recall that.

Q. Okay. And it is essentially a full 1990 fundraising 

recap for IAP. It is from IAP. 

A. To the OLF.

Q. And it talks about money that has been raised by various 

people, including Mr. El-Mezain?

A. I think it is just three people--two Hamas and Mezain.

Q. And this is 1990. Right?

A. Right.

Q. It is seven years at least before the October 8th, 1997 

designation. 

A. Right. The foreign terrorist -- Yes.

Q. And I just want to show you one notation here on page 2 

of the translation where I am pointing. Can you read that?

A. Yes.

Q. It says, "Abu Ibrahim took it." Now, you don't think 

that Mr. El-Mezain pocketed the money. Right?

A. No.

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Q. That he just forwarded it to the organization; that he 

was responsible for taking the money that he raised and making 

sure it got to the right place. 

A. I interpret that to mean that he took possession of the 

money at the fundraiser.

Q. And a bunch of these, if you look down at the bottom, and 

they are all under Abu Ibrahim, who is Mr. El-Mezain. Right?

A. No, there is some -- 

Q. No, I am just talking about from here down. 

A. Oh, from that point down, yes.

Q. They are all Abu Ibrahim. That is why the little line is 

there. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And that is Mr. El-Mezain?

A. Right.

Q. And we have I think six in a row Friday sermons. Right?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. So that would be at a mosque. Correct?

A. Right.

Q. And there are -- all the same day. 

A. Right.

Q. They are listed from Milwaukee, Cleveland, Toledo, 

Detroit, Chicago, and New Jersey. 

A. Right.

Q. Do you think he could be in all those places in one day?

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A. Probably not.

Q. Now, do you know any arrangements, or if there were 

arrangements with speakers in terms of whether they received a 

commission on money they raised or expenses?

A. I have seen some evidence of that.

Q. Okay. Do you know the amounts -- Do you know the figures 

or the arrangements with each percentage or anything?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And in fact, when this occurred there were no 

designation statutes at all. This is five years even before 

the 1995 -- 

A. Right.

Q. And all the Mushtaha search videos that you put in or 

that you talked about, Mushtaha Search No. 3, that is the one 

with El-Mezain at the end talking about the developmental 

programs, economic programs, the girls' high school. Do you 

recall that?

A. I am trying to figure out which one -- Was that with the 

other speakers? 

Q. That was with other speakers before. I mean, it is the 

one where at the beginning there is Mohammed Siam being 

greeted and Jamil Hamami -- 

A. When they are kissing on each other? 

Q. Yeah. 

A. I am familiar.

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Q. That is 1990 also?

A. Yeah, I think that is '90.

Q. Do you recall Mushtaha Search No. 11 and 12, the dates?

A. No. I am sorry. I don't have them memorized by exhibit 

number.

Q. One is at the OLF. If it has OLF, obviously it is going 

to be before 1991. Right?

A. No. It could be -- Probably. It is -- I don't want to 

say that is a hard and fast rule.

Q. And the Dallas -- Do you remember the Dallas video, 

Mushtaha No. 12, that is also 1990, '91?

A. Is that the one where the guy comes dressed up with the 

flag and holding the Quran in the air? 

Q. I don't recall that one. I just know Mr. El-Mezain is in 

that one. 

A. I would have to see a portion of it, or maybe you could 

show me a bit of the transcript. I don't recall which one 

that is.

Q. Okay. Now, Elbarasse Search No. 28. Right? I will put 

the English translation -- 

A. Thank you.

Q. Can you see that? Can you read it?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, it is a handwritten Arabic original. Right?

A. Yes.

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Q. And it talks about -- It is essentially a handwritten 

version of announcement for an event. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know if this event ever took place?

A. I don't know.

Q. And just from the context, you would think it is during 

the first Intifada. Correct? The name of the poem is "The 

stone has spoken."

A. Oh, I am sorry. I thought you were trying to address a 

specific year. Yes, it would be sometime probably within the 

first Intifada.

Q. Which would be years before the 1997 designation. 

A. Yes.

Q. And a couple of years even before the 1995 designation. 

Right?

A. Right.

Q. With respect to InfoCom Search No. 35, the security 

document. 

A. Yes.

Q. Right? There is a section -- I will put it on here. Do 

you see that one that is highlighted?

A. Yes.

Q. "Avoiding having the meetings at the homes of those who 

are under watch." Right?

A. Yes.

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Q. And in fact, in 1994, in the spring of '94 there was a 

meeting at Mr. Ashqar's house. Correct? It has been put in 

evidence through Agent Burns. Right?

A. Are we talking the meeting with Zahar and Siam? Which 

meeting are we talking about, sir? 

Q. Yes, yes. 

A. Yes.

Q. And you see that section there?

A. Yes.

Q. The highlighted section, it talks about suitable cover 

for travel?

A. Yes.

Q. Right? And it says, "Commerce, tourism, visiting 

relatives, and supporting with documents, tourist brochures, 

commercial samples, catalogs." Right?

A. Right.

Q. Now, you are aware. Right? That Jamil Hamami came to 

the United States in 1998 and again in '99 for the United 

States Information Agency. Correct? That was the sponsor. 

A. I don't know who the sponsor was, but I heard that he 

came here.

Q. The United States Information Service. I am sorry. Do 

you want to -- 

MR. DRATEL: If I may refresh his recollection? 

THE COURT: Yes.

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MR. DRATEL: This is in evidence. This is 

Defendants' No. 87. 

THE COURT: All right. 

THE WITNESS: Do you mind if I move this? 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Sure. I am not going to discuss the 

entire exhibit. I don't know if you are reading -- 

A. Very good.

Q. My initial question is the United States Information 

Service was the sponsor of his trips. Correct?

A. That is what it appears to be.

Q. Yes. And this is one of the pages, and I am going to 

highlight -- Do you see the top where it says United States 

Information Service up here?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you read that?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you see what I am highlighting here? It says, 

"Our office will provide the ticket for travel to the U.S. and 

per diem to cover hotel and meal costs"?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, this is October 28th, 1998. Right?

A. Right.

Q. So it is in the time period of both designations, the 

1995 designation of Hamas and the 1998 designation -- The 1998 

designation of Hamas. Correct?

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A. No, sir. It was '97.

Q. I am sorry. '97. Yes. Thank you. It is within the 

period of both?

A. Right.

Q. And so the United States during this period paid for his 

ticket. Right?

A. It said it would pay, yeah.

Q. And he came here. Right?

A. Actually I don't have any independent knowledge of that.

Q. And would -- You put in evidence with an American Express 

No. 2, you showed those receipts where back in 1990 or from 

1992 there was a trip that Holy Land paid for Jamil Hamami. 

Right?

A. Right.

Q. And that was four years before even the first 

designation. 

A. Right.

Q. Okay. And I just want to show you here, do you see 

that--February 5th, 1999?

A. I do.

Q. And it is to Mr. Hamami, Sheikh Jamil Hamami at the 

Doubletree Park Terrace in Washington, D.C.

A. Yes.

Q. It says, "It is a pleasure to welcome you to Washington, 

D.C. and to the United States."

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A. Yes.

Q. Right? And it says later in that paragraph, "In 

cooperation with the U.S. Information Agency"?

A. Yes.

Q. And this is February 17th, 1999 from the same exhibit, 

"Dear Mr. Hamami, welcome to Cincinnati. The International 

Visitors Council is pleased to coordinate your Cincinnati 

program. Your packet includes" -- Here it says, "Your packet 

includes a map of information about the city, which we hope 

will be helpful to you." 

Was that part of the security document? Was that 

according to the security document that they did this?

A. No.

Q. Now, also with respect to the security document, now, 

Holy Land Foundation stored numerous boxes, how many boxes, at 

InfoCom?

A. I am guessing 20 maybe. Probably less than that. Well, 

are you talking T-shirts and coffee mugs? 

Q. That was also there, too. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And they were stored across the street from the Holy Land 

Foundation?

A. At InfoCom, yes.

Q. At a firm that was run by one of the founders of Holy 

Land. InfoCom was run by one of the founders of Holy Land. 

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A. Right.

Q. Ghassan Elashi. 

A. Right; Ghassan Elashi.

Q. And it is a firm that Holy Land had a written contract 

for use of that space. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. That Holy Land kept in its records?

A. Yes.

Q. And that around these boxes were also -- in that vicinity 

where these promotional items--T-shirts, mugs, all these 

things with Holy Land identification on it?

A. Yes.

Q. And in these records were all sorts of documents. Right? 

Telephone bills. Right? Included?

A. Yes.

Q. American Express bills?

A. I think there were some, yes.

Q. And some of these were ten years old at the time the 

search occurred in 2001. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Some of them were 10, 11, 12 years old, some of them. 

Right?

A. Approximately, yes.

Q. Now, I want to talk just about speakers. You talked a 

lot about speakers. If you recall with respect to Holy Land 

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Search No. 27, that is the Abu Zant audiotape. Right? Do you 

recall that one?

A. Yes.

Q. I am not going to get into the content. That is from 

October '94. Right? And that is the one that you initially 

made a mistake that said that Oslo was at that time, when in 

fact Oslo was a year earlier. Right?

A. Right. Oslo was '93. The peace treaty with the 

Jordanians was '94. I think there was some confusion on that.

Q. It was a failure of memory. It is ten years ago. It is 

almost 15 years ago. 

A. I wouldn't call it a failure of memory. I just confused 

the dates. That is all.

Q. Okay. And with respect to El-Mezain Wiretap No. 1, which 

are the faxes. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you put in three pages. You talked about three 

pages. The whole exhibit is in, but you talked about three 

pages. Some were fliers at the end for the telephone 

conference. Do you recall?

A. The Zahar conference? 

Q. Yeah. I will show you. 

A. Okay.

Q. There are two conferences, rather. I am sorry. Just 

this conference. 

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A. Right. There were several conferences. I just wanted to 

confirm which one you were talking about. Right. I am 

familiar with that.

Q. Right. And that is faxed from the IAP. Correct?

A. Right.

Q. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And that is September 16th, 1994?

A. Right.

Q. Right? That is three years before the designation, the 

October 8, 1997 designation. 

A. Right.

Q. Now, do you recall Baker Wiretap No. 21?

A. No.

Q. Okay. 

A. Can you show me a front page.

Q. Yeah, yeah. That is what I am looking for here. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you see that one?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. Now, one of the speakers there is Abdullah Gul. 

Right? 

A. Right.

Q. And he is currently the president of Turkey. Right?

A. Right.

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Q. And he is also -- And you served two tours in Turkey. 

Right?

A. Right.

Q. And he was the first Turkish president to visit Armenia 

this past year. Right? He did that?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. And there is another person mentioned. Do you see where 

it says, "We are still trying to get through to Sarajevo to 

get either brother Izetbegovic or his advisor"?

A. I see that. 

Q. And Mr. Begovic became the president of 

Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1990. Right?

A. I wasn't aware of that. 

Q. You didn't check who he was?

A. He wasn't on the speakers list.

Q. But he was supposed to be part of this conference call. 

A. That is what it says.

Q. Yeah. And Qadi Hussein?

A. Who? 

Q. Qadi Hussein, another person on the call?

A. Yes.

Q. He is the head of a political party in Pakistan to this 

day. Right?

A. Right.

Q. Now, with respect to Baker Wiretap No. 23, No. 22 and 23, 

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just to show you what they are. That is for the two 

conference calls. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And No. 23 is the face page of the conference call for 

that right side of the page that is in Arabic?

A. Right.

Q. And that was the conference call that was in Arabic. 

Right?

A. Right.

Q. And isn't it a fact that Sheikh Mohammed Siam and Sheikh 

Al-Bitawi don't speak English, and that is why it is in 

Arabic. 

A. I don't know whether they speak English or not, sir.

Q. Now, you also put in, and I don't think you can see it on 

the Xerox, but do you recognize this is HLF Search No. 88?

A. Yes.

Q. And this is the platform for the Islamic Action Front in 

Jordan. Correct? It is a party platform. 

A. Right.

Q. It is a political party. 

A. Right.

Q. And we have photos in of people who are actually on the 

platform running for office. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And many of them in fact have been elected from time to 

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time to the Jordanian parliament. 

A. Right.

Q. And it says 1993 to '97, but in fact this is 1993, this 

document, because they are talking about the 1993 to 1997 

term. Right?

A. That makes sense.

Q. And I want to talk about some of the people in here. Abu 

Zant, he is one of the people who is in here. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And he was elected to the parliament?

A. Yes.

Q. Al-Kofahi, elected to the parliament?

A. Yes.

Q. Hamzah Mansour?

A. Yes.

Q. And in the platform, you read from parts that talk about 

the position on Palestine. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. But it doesn't mention Hamas. Correct?

A. I don't know if they mention it indirectly.

Q. And the platform, by the way, is a long document. Not 

all of it has been translated into English. Right?

A. I don't know if the entire thing has been translated.

Q. It is a whole list of legislative objectives and the 

objectives of the party for the electorate in Jordan to make a 

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determination. Right?

A. That is my understanding.

Q. And by the way, the Muslim Brotherhood is permitted in 

Jordan. Right? It is active. 

A. It is.

Q. And that is what the Islamic Action Front, to an extent, 

embodies in the political arena. 

A. No, I think it is -- not embodies. I don't think that is 

strong enough.

Q. Now, the Islamic Action Front is not designated here in 

the United States. Right?

A. No.

Q. And the Muslim Brotherhood is not designated here in the 

United States. I mean, there is no terrorist -- specially 

designated terrorist or foreign terrorist organization for 

Muslim Brotherhood. Right?

A. No.

Q. Or for -- no meaning correct. There is no designation?

A. Say that again.

Q. There is no designation for the Muslim Brotherhood. 

Right?

A. No, just -- No. The answer is no.

Q. Well, I am saying is there a designation for the Muslim 

Brotherhood?

A. I said the answer is no.

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Q. I just want to make sure I phrased the question properly. 

And the same is true for the IAF, for the Islamic Action 

Front. 

A. Correct.

Q. An emam, that is an Arabic term for a spiritual prayer 

leader in the mosque?

A. I think it has greater meaning than that, depending on 

what you are talking about. You could also be talking about 

the 12 emams and the Shia.

Q. So the answer -- 

A. So there is -- It also could mean leader in a sense, so 

there is variations of the definition.

Q. So it could have a larger religious meaning as well, in 

addition to just a community meeting?

A. Yes.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: You are welcome. 

MS. CADEDDU: On behalf of Mr. Abdulqader, I have no 

questions of this witness.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, any redirect? 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, could you post the Marzook 

phonebook on the screen, please? 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

By Mr. Jacks: 

Q. Agent Miranda, do you see the depiction of the Marzook 

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phonebook on the screen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is the picture of the cover?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were asked about the calls -- Just one moment. For 

the record, I have posted on the easel Demonstrative No. 16. 

Is that the demonstrative that shows the phone calls going 

between individuals or telephone numbers assigned to 

individuals and to different Hamas officials?

A. Just some of the phone calls, but yes.

Q. Okay. And you were asked about this call from Mr. 

El-Mezain's telephone to Moustafa righteousness. And again 

Moustafa righteousness, his relevance in this case is what? 

Who is he?

A. He was the Hamas representative in Syria.

MR. JACKS: Okay. And if you would, I believe it 

was page 58, Mr. Lewis, and the bottom of the page. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And Agent Miranda, is this entry in Mousa 

Abu Marzook's phonebook one of the pieces of evidence that is 

used to link up this telephone call -- 

A. Yes.

Q. -- to Moustafa righteousness? And the name is obviously 

-- I think you have testified, and others, sometimes the names 

are spelled differently in English?

A. Right.

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Q. But are intended to convey the same name. 

A. Correct.

Q. And you said the number that actually appeared on the 

phone bill on Mr. El-Mezain's phone bill was this 1159 number?

A. 11159.

Q. Okay. 

A. I am sorry. With the Syrian prefix.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Agent Lewis, could you zoom out, please?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And Agent Miranda, at the top of this 

page there is a page 21, and what does that reference?

A. Page 21 of Marzook's phonebook. 

Q. The original phonebook? 

A. Correct, the original phonebook. 

MR. JACKS: Agent Lewis, could you go to page 21, 

please, of the exhibit or the phonebook? I believe it would 

be page 21 of the exhibit. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. Now, Agent Miranda, does it 

appear that the entries in that phonebook are grouped 

together?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And so that there are phone numbers -- each 

entry has the capacity for three lines?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. And then in the other column there would be 

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corresponding information. Is that correct?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. And so if you go back to page 58, and are those 

kind of broken up there in the entry as well?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. You were questioned about some telephone calls 

that were between the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain and his 

parents, and I think one of them was between Mohammad 

El-Mezain and a person represented to be his brother. Do you 

recall being asked about those?

A. Yes.

Q. And I believe Mr. Dratel asked you if those calls were 

reflected on Demonstrative No. 16, and your answer was they 

were not. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the title of Demonstrative No. 16?

A. HLF phone calls to top Hamas officials.

Q. Okay. Any indication -- I assume that there is no 

indication that Mohammad El-Mezain's parents are top Hamas 

officials. 

A. No.

Q. Nor his brother?

A. No.

Q. I want to ask you a couple of questions about those calls 

which you read, and it was represented to you that the person, 

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one of the persons that was being talked about was this person 

Ahmad Nimr. Do you recall that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was there a reference in that phone call to the fact 

that he had been in jail?

A. Yes.

Q. And then there was a reference to an individual I believe 

by the name of Ismail who was his son and was working at this 

hospital. Is that correct?

A. The one at the lab? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Yes.

Q. I just want to show you a part that was read. Are you 

able to see that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And just that last statement. Let me move it over so you 

can see who is speaking. MO is Mohammad El-Mezain? 

A. That is right, sir.

Q. And he is speaking and he says, "He was in the lab and he 

applied and he used to get out the wrong results." And is 

Mohammad El-Mezain relating information about this individual 

Ismail and the conversation that Mohammad El-Mezain had with 

Ahmad Nimr about his son Ismail?

A. Right.

Q. And let me just, then, go to the next page. 

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A. Or he is relaying a conversation concerning the topic.

Q. Okay. Well, let me go to the next page. And do you see 

the continuation of Mr. El-Mezain's statement, if you would 

see where it says unintelligible, and then it says, "He said."

A. Yes.

Q. Can you read that sentence?

A. "He said that Sheikh Ahmad is saying, 'If you don't keep 

quiet I will stand up in the hospital and say this hospital is 

ours, and that hospital belongs to so and so people, and those 

who like it fine, and those who don't like it should leave.'"

Q. Okay. The reference to "ours," did you take note of that 

use of the possessive pronoun?

A. I have discussed this with Agent Burns.

Q. All right. 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) But that was the possessive pronoun that 

was used?

A. Yes.

Q. And does it appear that Ahmad Nimr was threatening to 

reveal something about the hospital?

A. That is exactly what I was trying to say, yes.

Q. And was his threat, from your reading of the 

conversation, an effort to keep his son Ismail employed at the 

hospital?

A. Precisely.

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Q. And in that same conversation between Mohammad El-Mezain 

and this person Dawud El-Mezain represented to be his brother, 

let me direct your attention to a part that you read. And if 

you -- Do you see where the brother says, "He needs a 

beating"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And Mr. El-Mezain says, "Who needs a beating?"

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he says, "He is the one who gives beatings, my 

brother." And then you see the statement by Mohammad 

El-Mezain that begins, "By Almighty God, my brother." Would 

you read that?

A. "By Almighty God, my brother, I don't know whom to talk 

to, honestly. By God, if you know someone at your end whom he 

would have regard for, tell him to be quiet before the 

hospital" --

Q. That is fine. 

MR. DRATEL: What page is that, Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Page 9.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Now, you were questioned about some of 

the persons that were on the speakers list and some of the 

persons that were in the conference call. One of them that 

you were asked about is this person Abdullah Gul who was from 

Turkey. And you testified that he was elected to be the 

president of Turkey. And what party is he a part of in 

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Turkey? What political party?

A. The Justice and Development Party.

Q. And is that an Islamist party in Turkey?

A. Yes. That party is derived from the Refah Party, which 

is an Islamist party.

Q. Will you spell Refah?

A. R-E-F-A-H.

Q. Thank you. You were also asked about individuals in the 

Islamic Action Front and whether some of those persons on the 

speakers list in fact were elected to parliament. And you 

said that the Islamic Action Front is -- I believe you were 

asked is it some relation to the Muslim Brotherhood, and you 

said that is not a strong enough statement. What is the true 

answer that you would give regarding the Islamic Action Front 

and the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan?

A. Yes. I was asked if it embodied, and I said it wasn't 

strong enough. It has already been described as the ally of 

Hamas in Jordan.

Q. Well, as far as the Islamic Action Front -- 

MR. DRATEL: I don't think that was the question. I 

asked -- my question was about Muslim Brotherhood and IAF, not 

about Hamas, so I don't know why he put Hamas. I don't 

understand that to be the question.

THE COURT: I think it was brought up by the 

question that you asked and then he asked another question 

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related to that. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) My question is, is the Islamic Action 

Front the same as the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan?

A. Yeah, absolutely.

Q. And again, Hamas, how does it describe itself as relates 

to the Muslim Brotherhood?

A. Hamas is the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. 

It is right there in the charter.

Q. So that statement is in their charter that we have seen 

in this case?

MR. DRATEL: Asked and answered, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Those are Hamas' words.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is it uncommon or rare for Middle Eastern 

politicians to support and praise Hamas?

A. No, not at all.

Q. In fact, did Saddam Hussein praise Hamas?

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained, counsel. We are getting far 

afield.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) With regard to many of these politicians, 

have we heard speeches and remarks where they have praised 

Hamas? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am going to object.

THE COURT: I am going to sustain if you ask 

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generally. He asked about some specific names on the list. 

If you want to ask about those.

MR. JACKS: That is what I was implying.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I have a motion to make 

at an appropriate time.

THE COURT: All right.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Have we heard, for example, individuals 

that have praised Hamas, politicians, persons that are 

politicians in this case?

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor.

THE COURT: Counsel, I still think that is a little 

too broad. Which politicians? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Was Deeb Anees at one time elected to the 

Jordanian parliament?

A. Yes. He is Islamic Action Front.

Q. And in fact, are many -- Is Hamas now the -- Or prior to 

the summer of 2007, were many of these Hamas individuals in 

fact elected to the Palestinian parliament?

A. Yes. In fact, several of the speakers on the overseas 

speakers list were members of the Hamas government.

Q. After January of 2006. Is that correct?

A. Right. I am talking not the municipal elections but the 

national.

Q. So persons that have been shown or talked about in this 

case in fact now have some kind of government position in the 

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Palestinian Authority. Is that correct?

A. Yes. For instance, Mahmoud Zahar, who we have seen the 

videos of the early fundraising, listing on the overseas 

speakers, there was a couple of exhibits we showed this 

morning, he is essentially the Hamas government's foreign 

minister.

Q. You were asked about the documents, the Holy Land 

Foundation documents found inside InfoCom. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you indicated -- Let me ask you, when the search 

warrant was being prepared for InfoCom, were you expecting or 

anticipating that you would find Holy Land Foundation 

documents in there?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. We don't have a 

foundation at this point.

THE COURT: He was asking "Were you expecting." He 

may answer. 

MR. DRATEL: I also think it is leading as well.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: I was aware of a close relationship 

between InfoCom and the HLF. I was hopeful, but I was quite 

honestly surprised at what I found at InfoCom as it relates to 

the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) I want to clarify something with you. We 

have made reference in this case to the Baker wiretap, and I 

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think it is sometimes Shukri Abu Baker wiretap and the Holy 

Land Foundation wiretap. And if you could explain if -- Are 

some of the Shukri Abu Baker wiretap calls calls that were 

from electronic intercepts at the Holy Land Foundation office?

A. Phrase that one more time. I want to make sure I get it 

right.

Q. Let me rephrase it another way. 

THE COURT: Before you do that, let's take the 

morning break. Let's take 20 minutes. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Counsel, come on up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. JONAS: I wanted to give an update on the issue 

I discussed earlier. I spoke with John McPherson, who is head 

of the Litigation Division of the Office of General Council of 

the CIA. I related to him our conversation from this morning 

with regard to Mr. Cline's suggestion that Defense attorneys 

travel to Virginia to view the material. As suspected, no. 

With regard to Your Honor viewing the material, not a problem. 

I asked him about the index. As I said earlier, he 

doesn't think it is going to be very helpful, but he is 

willing to print it up and secure fax it down here. 

I also suggested to him about the call that maybe you and 

he speak directly during lunch. He is completely fine with 

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that. 

So Your Honor, what time do you want to do that? I can 

pass the phone number for him to Ms. Helms.

THE COURT: We will probably break around 12:30, 

like we usually do, so any time between 12:30 and 1:00 our 

time.

MR. JONAS: And do you want to initiate the call 

yourself? 

THE COURT: I can do that. We will do that and 

call. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, this is what I would say 

about the call. I have no problem with Your Honor speaking to 

him without us present. What I would ask is that to the 

extent that the call is unclassified, and I suggest it will 

be, that we get at least a summary of what was discussed.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. JONAS: That is fine. And Mr. Cline raises a 

point. When I mentioned to Mr. McPherson about the call with 

Your Honor, he didn't say what I am about to say, but in my 

experience in dealing with the CIA, they often like to speak 

on secure lines. So just an FYI, he may at some point in the 

conversation suggest that you move to a secure line. I don't 

know if Your Honor has one.

THE COURT: I don't know what they are, frankly.

MS. HOLLANDER: I don't think there are any in the 

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building.

MR. JONAS: In the U.S. Attorney's Office there is a 

secure line. If Your Honor needs, we can make arrangements 

for you to make the call from down there. And we won't be 

present during the call so it is fair that both sides aren't 

there.

THE COURT: Okay. And the call you think -- What 

would that be about? 

MR. JONAS: Just for you to make arrangements for 

him, for Your Honor to review the materials that are in 

question, so you can talk to him about whether you want it in 

paper or computer form or if you want this guy to come down 

here.

THE COURT: I guess our court security officer, she 

mentioned, I had talked about that when we were working on the 

order based on the motion, and they oftentimes want to be 

here. 

MR. JONAS: I can give her a heads up.

THE COURT: I don't have a problem. Whatever we 

need to do. 

Are we done with that one? 

MR. JONAS: I think so. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I want to move for a 

mistrial on the basis of Mr. Jacks mentioning Hussein. Your 

Honor has been very clear throughout this case that we are not 

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going to bring these things in, and he did it, and he did it 

in a leading manner. There was no reason for it, no excuse 

for it. It was an attempt to inflame this jury and add Saddam 

Hussein, which he knows brings in all the fears that everyone 

has. And Your Honor has been so clear about this. And I 

think it was intentional on Mr. Jacks' part, and I move for a 

mistrial.

MS. MORENO: I would also add, Your Honor -- And I 

would join in the motion. I would also add that there are 

jurors, specifically my recollection is Juror Fabela who 

currently has a son in Iraq, and so this just exacerbated the 

prejudice and the aggravation, so I would join in the mistrial 

motion.

MS. CADEDDU: On behalf of Mufid Abdulqader, I would 

also.

MR. DRATEL: And on behalf of Mr. El-Mezain.

MR. WESTFALL: I will too, Your Honor.

MR. JONAS: If I can briefly address that, I don't 

know if Mr. Jacks has something else to address, there is 

material contained within the Holy Land documentation we 

haven't admitted yet which we plan on admitting, subject to 

Your Honor's ruling, that has Saddam Hussein's name as 

providing $10,000 to the same family members that the HLF is 

supporting themselves, so I do think there is a connection 

between him in this case.

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MR. JACKS: The other thing is, Your Honor, Mr. 

Dratel purported to reference that Abdullah Gul is now the 

president of Turkey and this other man is head of a political 

party, leaving the impression that high ranking government 

officials, you know, wouldn't -- you know, the inference being 

they are respectable, therefore -- 

THE COURT: I understand. I am going to deny the 

motion for mistrial. It was opened up, that area of 

questioning was opened up by what Mr. Dratel's questioning 

was, that area. But, you know, we don't want to mention 

Al-Qeada or mention those kinds of things. I think before you 

ask about those individuals, you need to go ahead and approach 

the bench before you mention those types of individuals.

MS. HOLLANDER: Does that include Hussein? 

THE COURT: That includes Hussein.

MS. CADEDDU: I would point out that the people Mr. 

Dratel -- I want to make sure the record is clear on this. 

The people he was talking about, Mr. Gul and Mr. Qadi and Mr. 

Begovic, those people were specifically named in a Holy 

Land --

THE COURT: The record will be clear, but I don't 

think he is limited to that because of the impression he was 

trying to lay. And he is correct on that. So you are not 

necessarily limited to those names. I wanted to limit it to 

some extent to the names that were mentioned, that were named 

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in those papers, but you were clearly trying to lay an 

impression that because they were involved in politics -- he 

was trying to explain that just because they are in politics 

does not mean they aren't tied in with Hamas. I think it was 

fairly raised by that. But we don't need to get into Hussein 

or Al-Qeada or those kinds of issues. 

We will be in recess.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, I wanted to clarify 

something, and I think I started to ask you that before the 

break, but with respect to the references to the Shukri Abu 

Baker wiretap and the Holy Land Foundation wiretap, did 

they -- Is that a naming distinction as opposed to a location 

distinction?

A. It is more of a naming distinction. It used to be that 

there was -- the Bureau made a big deal about always saying on 

the title blocks of our paperwork that, you know, that you had 

to have individuals as opposed to organizations. So the title 

of a FISA kind of reflected that attitude that it would be the 

Baker FISA. Does that make sense? I don't know if it makes 

sense, out of the bureaucracy that I live in. 

Q. So while it may be referred to as the Baker wiretap, it 

actually was a wiretap that existed at the offices of the Holy 

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Land Foundation and also on the home telephone of Shukri Abu 

Baker. 

A. Right. The logic eventually caught up with the 

paperwork.

Q. So later on the terminology changed, and then as to the 

wiretap at the offices that became or was referred to as the 

Holy Land Foundation wiretap?

A. Yes.

Q. Later in time during the lifetime of that electronic 

intercept?

A. Right.

Q. All right. During your cross examination you were asked 

regarding -- you were questioned regarding a couple of 

exhibits by Mr. Westfall. The first one was Holy Land 

Foundation Search Exhibit No. 23, which I am just holding up 

the original. And that is this multi-page, 231-page document 

which has been identified I believe by Agent Burns actually as 

a list of individuals' names and dollar amounts and cities. 

And it has been interpreted to represent who is being credited 

for donations or money raised. Is that a fair statement?

A. Right. Or possibly sponsoring of children or families.

Q. Right. But with regard to Government's Exhibit No. 23, 

this is in the original form in which it was -- This document 

was an electronic form when it was originally located?

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I am just going to object 

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to the leading nature of the question.

THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Government's Exhibit No. 23, what form 

was it in? Was it in paper form as first found or electronic 

form found on the computer?

A. On electronic form on the computer.

Q. When that electronic form is printed out, is that what is 

represented by Government's Exhibit No. 23?

A. Right, the chronological version, yes.

Q. All right. And it goes from -- The oldest entry 

reflects--and if you need to look at it, I will be happy to 

show it to the you--1989, and then the most recent entry 

reflects something in the year 2000, August of 2000. Is that 

correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then you were asked about a Defense exhibit, I 

believe it was No. 1087, which is a version of this 

Government's Exhibit HLF Search No. 23 wherein the entries had 

been re-sorted, if you will, into alphabetical order. Is that 

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And it still had the same entries so it would have the 

same -- Would it still have the same chronological range, if 

you will, from 1989 to 2000, although in alphabetical order?

A. Right. Now it was just sorted by who the speakers were.

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Q. All right. And as a part of your investigation, if you 

will -- And just -- 

MR. JACKS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) I am just going to show you HLF Search 

No. 23. And my question is, does that document have a total? 

I mean, is there any math that appears to have been done, or 

is it just entries so the numbers -- Are the numbers added up 

and totaled anywhere in there?

A. No.

Q. I want to direct your attention to Elbarasse Search 

No. 29. And Agent Miranda, this is a document which you 

testified about on direct examination. And I believe you were 

also asked about this on cross examination by Mr. Dratel. 

Correct? 

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Agent Lewis would you go to the fourth 

or fifth page which is in English? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And Agent Miranda, is this a -- Just tell 

us again what this is, this page of the exhibit. 

A. Well, this is a letter on the letterhead of the Islamic 

Association for Palestine dated December 19th, 1990, so 

clearly it is at the end of the year. It is to the director 

of the Occupied Land Fund. And the IAP is saying, "In 

reference to the ten percent we agreed upon last October to be 

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paid by the Occupied Land Fund to the Islamic Association for 

Palestine, for the expenses that the IAP incurred in the 

enclosed activities that they performed on behalf of the 

Occupied Land Fund," and they mention that they basically 

raised $396,880, and so they wanted their ten percent.

MR. JACKS: And if you would, Agent Lewis, go to the 

next page, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And does this exhibit contain a reference 

to who the speakers were that were a part of this fundraising 

tour or campaign?

A. Yes. I testified previously that this includes then 

Hamas figure Jamil Hamami, also current Hamas figure Mahmoud 

Zahar, and Abu Ibrahim, who is the Defendant Mohammad 

El-Mezain.

Q. And just to go back to what was -- Whether it was 

Defendants' Exhibit No. 1087 or Government's Exhibit HLF 

Search No. 23, did you look at the two exhibits and compare it 

to this exhibit to do a comparison?

A. You mean this exhibit to this exhibit? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Yes.

Q. And you are pointing -- 

A. I am not sure that is clear to the Court. Meaning the 

exhibit on the screen to HLF Search No. 23, yes, I have done 

that comparison.

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Q. And the exhibit on the screen is HLF Search No. 29. And 

in doing that comparison, did you find any indication that 

this $390,000 was included in that list?

A. No. Actually there was only one entry in this for 1990, 

and it was for Shukri Baker for $3,000, which falls kind of 

short of $396,000.

Q. Let me direct your attention to -- 

MR. JACKS: Agent Lewis, if the you would post what 

has been admitted as InfoCom Search No. 23. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, this is an exhibit that 

you talked about on your direct examination. 

MR. JACKS: And the bottom part of the page, Agent 

Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And does that have a heading for 

conference call?

A. Yes, sir, it does.

Q. And does that document purport to refer to a conference 

call that was played during this trial?

A. No. We didn't play this conference call, sir. I don't 

believe we captured this one, but we spoke of this one.

Q. All right. I am sorry. Then spoke of it. All right. 

And does it reflect a dollar amount that was supposedly 

collected?

A. Yes. It says right there on the sentence starting with 

"The performance was very good. We collected $18,500. This 

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is what we knew over the phone while the conference was going 

on."

Q. And who were the guests or the speakers that were 

speaking during that conference call, according to this 

document?

A. Hammam Saeed and Hamas figure Mohammed Siam.

Q. And did you take this piece of information and look at 

either Government's Exhibit HLF Search No. 23 or Defendants' 

No. 1087 and were you able to match or was there a 

corresponding entry that could be -- that would indicate that 

this information on InfoCom Search No. 23 was reflected on 

either HLF Search No. 23 or Defendants No. 1087?

A. Well, I did the comparison, and here is what I found. I 

looked for money corresponding to speakers Hammam Saeed and 

Mohammed Siam from the 9th of February when this conference 

call took place, and I looked for a bit, a period of time. I 

accounted for approximately $7,000 that was attributed to 

Mohammed Siam over various days after the 9th of February, but 

I didn't come anywhere near $18,500.

Q. And is that -- Did you find or do you have that page in 

front of you?

A. Sure. 

MR. JACKS: Can I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: For example, this is page 23 of 

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Exhibit HLF Search No. 23. And there is an entry on 15 

February for $2,000 to Mohammed Siam. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) If you would, let me just stop you. And 

how many pages do we need to go through here to cover the 

pages that you examined?

A. Just a second, sir. Four up to this point. I am still 

looking. I think four pages, sir, unless I have missed one.

Q. And that -- The individual in those four pages that is 

referenced that you have been looking for or comparing to is 

who?

A. M. Siam.

Q. And was there any reference for Saeed?

A. I mean, there is lost of references to Saeed in this but 

not -- not together with Mohammed Siam to reflect this 

particular conference call. 

Q. What dollar amount did you say that you were able to 

locate -- What time period are you talking about there that 

you are looking at?

A. Yes. To clarify, this conference call on the InfoCom 

Search No. 23 exhibit says it took place on the 9th of 

February, so I started looking on the 9th of February in HLF 

Search No. 23, the exhibit. The first entry I come across for 

money attributed to Siam would be 15 February, '96 for $2,000. 

Then I come across another one on 16 February, '96 for $3,650. 

I come across another one on 21 February for $1,304.

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Q. Any others?

A. 1 March, '96 for $425.

Q. And that is over a year after this conference call took 

place. Is that correct?

A. Not a year, sir. Maybe a month.

Q. I am sorry. You said '96?

A. Yes. And 5 March, '96 for $250.

Q. All right. And you said that the total that you came up 

when you added those numbers up was about $7,000?

A. Yeah, I did it real quick last night. I don't have the 

exact figure. But anyhow I was uncomfortable -- I didn't feel 

I could account for the total $18,500 through this document.

Q. All right. You were not able to locate what appeared to 

be the $18,000 or the amount of $18,000 that is indicated on 

InfoCom Search No. 23. Is that correct?

A. Right, yes. Short answer, yes.

Q. And I believe you were asked about the speakers list by 

Mr. Westfall. Do you recall that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that was HLF Search No. 87, and this is an 

enlargement of that. And just for clarity's sake, this 

document you said was found on the Holy Land Foundation 

computer. Correct?

A. Right. A computer.

Q. And this -- But for -- You said the document was how many 

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pages on the computer?

A. It is two pages. That is why you see the break on the 

bottom.

Q. Here?

A. Right.

Q. But for putting it on one page on this poster board and 

the numbers here, is this document exactly as it was found?

A. Exactly.

Q. So this heading "overseas speakers," was that on there 

when you found it?

A. Sure.

Q. That is not something that was added to illustrate this 

chart?

A. No. That is theirs.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: I pass the witness.

THE COURT: Mr. Cline? 

MR. CLINE: No additional questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes, sir. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Hollander: 

Q. Just a few questions, Agent Miranda.

You talked about Demonstrative No. 16, these calls?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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Q. You can see it?

A. I can see it, ma'am.

Q. Good. Now, the only call referenced on here after Hamas 

was designated is the call between Jamal Abu Baker and HLF. 

Correct?

A. The two calls, yes, ma'am.

Q. Two calls. Correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. 1998?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And Jamal Abu Baker is not designated, is he?

A. No, he is not.

Q. You also mentioned -- Mr. Jacks asked you about the 

Muslim Brotherhood. You were talking about the Muslim 

Brotherhood and the Islamic Action Front in Jordan. And he 

asked you about the Hamas charter. 

A. I think I mentioned it. I don't know if he asked me 

about it, but I mentioned it.

Q. You mentioned that according to the Hamas charter that 

Hamas is the Muslim Brotherhood wing in Palestine. That was 

your testimony. 

A. Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Q. Right. And in fact, what the Hamas charter says is that 

the Islamic Resistance Movement, which we know to be Hamas, is 

one of the wings of the Muslim Brotherhood. Correct?

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A. I think it depends on which charter you are looking at, 

which definition. Are you looking at the Yale version or the 

one found at the IAP? I am not sure, ma'am.

Q. So they are different in what they say. Is that what you 

are saying?

A. Yeah, I do believe there is variations in the two, the 

translations. The Yale one is slightly different. I would 

have to compare the two to see if that is correct.

Q. You know that the Muslim Brotherhood still exists in 

Palestine separate from Hamas. Correct?

A. I am not certain of that, ma'am.

Q. You are aware that Yasser Arafat was a member of the 

Muslim Brotherhood, weren't you?

A. I think somebody mentioned that earlier on. I don't have 

any independent knowledge of that.

Q. And you know that the United States sent observers to the 

election in Palestine in 2006. You know that, don't you?

A. No, actually I don't.

Q. Now, you also talked about Dar el-Salam hospital. 

Correct?

A. We discussed it.

Q. You discussed that with both Mr. Dratel and then with Mr. 

Jacks. Correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. And you knew that there was an issue, a conflict 

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that -- the one that Mr. El-Mezain talked about in the call. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You were aware of that?

A. Indirectly by talking with one of the other agents on 

this case. It wasn't really my area of investigation, but I 

was aware of it.

Q. And you were aware also that Shukri was concerned about 

that, too, weren't you?

A. No, I am not sure that I am aware of that, ma'am.

Q. One of the people mentioned in that call was Haider Abdel 

Shafi, who was head of Palestinian delegation to Madrid. You 

knew that, didn't you?

A. No. What is the name? 

Q. Dr. Haider Abdel Shafi?

A. No. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I will pass the witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall?

MR. WESTFALL: Yes, Your Honor. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Westfall: 

Q. Hello, Agent Miranda.

A. Good morning, sir. How are you? 

Q. I am doing well. How are you?

A. Fine, thank you.

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Q. So after court broke yesterday evening you went home and 

you looked at Defendants No. 1087 and the HLF Search No. 23 

and you did some calculations?

A. Kind of. I knew it before, but you didn't give me the 

opportunity to say it last night. I went and calculated the 

Siam money, but I already knew about the $396,000. 

Additionally there is another section we haven't even 

discussed yet missing. But anyhow, I calculated the $7,000.

Q. Did you do calculations last night?

A. Yeah.

Q. And did you do this at the direction of Mr. Jacks?

A. No.

Q. While you were doing your calculations, did you have a 

chance to calculate up the 1997 Anees Mezain to verify that it 

adds up to this?

A. I did not, but I didn't ignore your question. I did find 

a piece of paperwork relating to Anees with the figure, so I 

guess I am trying to say I looked into what you are saying. I 

did not add up those figures.

Q. This is page 141 out of Defendants No. 1087. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Who is that?

A. That is Jamil Hamami. 

Q. Who is that?

A. That is Mohammed Siam.

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MR. JACKS: Can we have a time period that is shown 

on the entry?

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) I am sorry. I didn't tell you a page 

number. Is that Mohammed Siam for 14 April, '94?

A. Right.

Q. And there are several in here for Siam. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. In the 500 bankers boxes that were taken from the Holy 

Land Foundation, there are literally tens of thousands of 

pages of financial documents. Wouldn't you agree?

A. There is tens of thousands of pages. I don't know how 

many there are going to be in terms of financial. They are 

certainly not all financial documents, sir. There are lots of 

financial documents. I would hate to put a figure on it.

Q. Right. But there are thousands and thousands of these 

wire transfer requests. Wouldn't you agree?

A. There is a lot, yeah; sure.

Q. And lists of orphans that were supposed to be paid?

A. Yes.

Q. And Quicken, you know, like accounting records, real 

accounting records?

A. Yeah, I think there is some of those, too.

Q. And there were also like end of year financial 

statements. True?

A. Yes.

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Q. And so, when we are talking about these financial records 

here, there is a whole lot more financial records where these 

came from. Wouldn't you agree? Being the Holy Land office?

A. I am sorry. When you say "these here," you are holding 

up -- 

Q. Defendants No. 1087. 

A. I have not seen a report like that other than the one 

generated from the computer. I am just trying to be precise.

Q. Okay. And you have at some point added up how much 

people made based upon this document, the Holy Land Foundation 

No. 23. At some point you have added that up, I guess. 

A. I have added some of the individuals who were on the HLF 

overseas speakers list who were significant because of 

connections, so I didn't -- For example, there are individuals 

on there that were domestic fundraisers, which was not what I 

was looking at. I looked at people who had Hamas connections 

or were Hamas, Islamic Action Front, that sort of thing. So I 

don't want to give you the impression that I added up 

everything for everybody.

Q. So people that you added up were the folks that you 

thought were Hamas. Is that what you are saying?

A. That I thought were Hamas? No, that are Hamas or are 

connected to organizations like the Islamic Action Front. I 

also had a category I believe for individuals who had the same 

telephone number as Hamas spokesman Ibrahim Ghousheh, the guy 

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who wrote the two letters to the Senate. I had those sorts of 

categories, sir.

Q. And those would be the things that you would call 

relevant to the investigation?

A. This is a trial about Hamas, is it not? 

Q. So whether numbers like this, which is your exhibit, 

whether that can be verified is not really relevant to you, I 

guess. Right?

A. You know, I didn't -- I never got the point of what you 

were trying to say yesterday, so to me -- 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I object as argumentative.

THE COURT: Go ahead. I will let him continue. I 

am not sure where you are going, but go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I guess my short answer was I wasn't 

sure of the relevance yesterday, and I am still not sure of it 

today, sir.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Okay. Well, this here is HLF Search 

No. 178. And you put this exhibit into evidence. You 

sponsored this exhibit, didn't you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you spoke about this exhibit.

A. Right.

Q. And when you put this exhibit into evidence, you didn't 

explain anything else about it other than this reflects money 

raised by Jamil Hamami. Isn't that what you did?

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A. I don't know about that. I guess we can look at the 

record and find out what questions I was asked.

Q. And it was in the context of this December '93 phone call 

or December '99 phone call, you discussed that first, and then 

you put this up without any further explanation. Isn't that 

what you did, Agent Miranda?

A. I don't know. We can look at the record.

Q. All right. Did you check the evidence that has been 

admitted in this trial?

A. Yes, I did. I looked for the evidence admitted in this 

trial, and my answer is no, I did not find anything for your 

client related to him being, I think your question was, Muslim 

Brotherhood.

Q. Right.

A. Or Palestine Committee.

Q. Right. 

A. My answer is no, I didn't find anything in the exhibits, 

sir.

Q. Very well.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, pass the witness.

THE COURT: Mr. Dratel? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes, Your Honor. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Dratel: 

Q. There was a discussion with Mr. Jacks and Ms. Hollander 

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about the Hamas charter and the Muslim Brotherhood. 

A. Right.

Q. And you talked about different versions. 

A. No --

Q. Different translations of different -- I am sorry. 

Withdrawn. 

MR. DRATEL: Can we pull up Hamas Charter 

Demonstrative, slide 4, please? 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) That was put in by Doctor Levitt. 

Right? The PowerPoint presentation on the Hamas charter?

A. Yeah.

Q. That is from Doctor Levitt?

A. Yes.

MR. DRATEL: Okay. I can move on and come back if 

it takes -- Okay. I will go to a different area and come 

back. Thank you. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) There may have been some confusion with 

respect to what I was asking you about the phone conversations 

that were read, that we read between Mr. El-Mezain and his 

relatives. You didn't put those on Demonstrative No. 6. 

Right? That is the one I was asking you about. That is the 

family relationships. Right?

A. Right.

Q. You didn't put anything about Ahmad Nimr. Right?

A. Right.

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Q. And he is Hamas. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And with respect to those conversations, you and Mr. 

Jacks read some sections. Right? Ahmad Nimr's threat. 

Right?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. And this is from No. 1340, defendants No. 1340, 

which is a conversation between Mr. El-Mezain and Dawud 

El-Mezain. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Can you read that section right here that is highlighted?

A. Can you focus it just a little bit? 

Q. Certainly. 

A. That is fine. "Ahmad is saying, 'This hospital belongs 

to so and so parties. He who wants to work, let him, and he 

who doesn't work should not work.' Of course, all of that is 

wrong from beginning to end; talk which harms and doesn't 

benefit."

Q. Okay. Now, if you look this next section where it starts 

"you say."

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you just read that? "You say my hospital."

A. Sure.

Q. Read the highlighted part?

A. Sure. It says "You say, 'My hospital.' Not all of the 

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women are veiled. One is like this and one is like that. Not 

at all."

Q. And the next highlighted section of the next paragraph?

A. "This female doctor wears knee-length clothes."

Q. And that would not be very Islamic. Correct? In terms 

of for women to be immodest in that way. Right? To be 

unveiled?

A. I don't know about that. I lived in the country where 

there were a lot of Muslims that dressed with knee-length 

skirts. I wouldn't say they weren't Muslim.

Q. I didn't say Muslim. 

A. You said Islamic.

Q. Meaning religious. 

A. I was conveying the same thing, sir.

Q. Hamas is a religious party organization. 

A. It is a terrorist group that is strongly influenced by 

the religion, yes.

Q. Same conversation. Could you read that highlighted 

section? Can you see it?

A. Yes, sir. Is this Mr. Mezain talking.

Q. Yes, it is. 

A. Okay. "I told him, 'This is not your business. The 

hospital belongs to all Muslims. It doesn't belong to Zeid or 

Amr, and the people who are in the board or approved by us, 

and this is the Foundation's business and not your business.'"

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Q. And No. 1342 is the conversation between Mr. El-Mezain 

and his parents?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. And I will be Mr. El-Mezain and if you can be Mr. 

El-Mezain's father. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you read that?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. "I -- Father, he should keep his evil away from us. I'm 

entrusted over money, Father. When we tell people that we are 

building a hospital in Khan Younis, is Ahmad going to come 

over and take over the hospital, Father?"

A. "No."

Q. "Should Ahmad Nimr come and appoint whoever he wants in 

the hospital? Do you know what he told me? Do you know what 

he told me yesterday? Do you know what he told me yesterday?"

A. "No."

Q. "He told me, 'Tell these people I want.' This was the 

day before yesterday when you're visiting him, and you heard 

him. He told me he wants everything to be under his control. 

I told him, 'By God, you won't see joy in that.'"

A. "Under his control?" 

Q. "Yes. He wants everything to be under his control. I 

told him, 'By God, you won't see joy in that."

A. "How come, son, he wants things to be under his control?"

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Q. "I, er, I, er" -- 

A. "Why is that?"

Q. "Ahmad Nimr is now a messenger of God in the Sector."

A. Oh God, oh God, oh God. Everybody is mad at him."

Q. "No, he won't see joy in that. And also -- also let me 

tell you, this is an American organization, Father. By God, I 

tell you, if one makes a phone call from here to the embassy 

at your end, he won't remain free for a day. Let him fear 

God. It is dishonor. We don't want to do this villainous 

work. Father, let's not destroy our work. It is wrong. Keep 

these words to yourself and don't tell anyone. But we don't 

do these things. Thanks be to God, Lord of the two worlds. 

Wherever people come, they comment about this work and this 

trust and this day." 

And one more, if you can read that. That is Mr. 

El-Mezain talking. Can you read that paragraph please?

A. Yes, sir. "May God bless you, Father. Have absolute 

trust that I won't do other than as you instructed me. The 

verse you recited for me a little while ago, when I went to 

Egypt in '72 you told me, 'Son, he who does righteousness 

should not fear injustice nor unfairness.' God's willing, we 

will not be unjust with Ahmad, and we will not be unjust with 

anybody other than Ahmad, and neither will we sever our ties 

with our brother or our cousins. Let's be better and let's 

those who want something bad be handled by God."

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Q. And going back to No. 1340, and this is just part of a 

section we read the first time. And where I am pointing, Mr. 

El-Mezain's brother says, "What legal action?" 

And Mr. El-Mezain says, "Legal action? I would call the 

U.S. embassy." 

Right? That is what is in there? Right?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. DRATEL: If you could, please. Slide 4, please. 

That is not it. It is the -- I can fill in. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) InfoCom Search No. 23. I will just put 

it on the elmo. Well, can I show it to you?

A. Sure.

Q. You discussed that with Mr. Jacks just now. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And that is a document that doesn't have a translation. 

It is actually an English document. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Found at InfoCom?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In 2001. 

A. Correct.

Q. And the date of the document is 1996?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Thank you. Just with respect to HLF Search No. 23 

and Defendants No. 1087. Right? Do you know what I am 

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talking about? That is right. 

Initially you in fact -- When I say you, I should say the 

Government, or you personally, or someone you directed, 

printed that out in alphabetical order. Correct?

A. Printed it out as it was you mean? 

Q. No. Directed that it be printed in alphabetical order. 

A. It was eventually sorted, yes.

Q. So you did that on the computer as well. In other words, 

you made it alphabetical at some point. 

A. No, I didn't.

Q. But someone at your direction. 

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Can you read that, the top part?

A. Uh-huh, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. And it says, does it not, "the Islamic Resistance 

Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brotherhood in 

Palestine"?

A. Yes, sir, it says that.

Q. Thank you. And the IAP version you think has something 

different?

A. I think you are taking what I said wrong. I said that 

the translations -- there are two translations. One is the 

Yale translation which Doctor Levitt relies on, and then there 

is a translation from the IAP. I know there are variations in 

those two. I think I said that the -- Hamas is the 

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Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Q. So you are saying the Yale version is not one of the 

wings?

A. No.

Q. Didn't you just say there is a variation on the one on 

the screen?

A. I am saying there is variation between the two charters. 

I am not saying anything about the first article.

Q. This is Article 2. 

A. I am sorry. I am not saying about that. I just read it.

Q. So that is the one -- You are not saying there is any 

other version somewhere that you know of for that particular 

sentence. 

A. I must be misunderstanding you. That sentence, I am not 

aware how that is varied or not varied from the IAP version. 

All I am saying is there is two translations out there, a Yale 

version and an IAP version. I am not saying anything about 

there being a difference between Article 2 in the Yale version 

and Article 2 in the IAP version. That is it, sir.

Q. When Ms. Hollander spoke to you and when I just asked 

you, did we discuss anything but that particular article? 

Were we asking about that?

A. You didn't ask me an article at all. You asked me if I 

knew whether it was part of the Palestinian -- 

Q. What it said in the charter, no? 

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A. I am trying to answer -- 

MR. DRATEL: Pass the witness, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Ms. Cadeddu, any questions? 

MS. CADEDDU: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. 

Anything further, Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Agent Miranda, you may step down.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, the Government calls Matthew 

Levitt. 

THE COURT: Doctor Levitt, good morning. Have a 

seat there. 

And you have been sworn previously. You are still under 

that oath. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am assuming I don't have 

to requalify Doctor Levitt as an expert.

THE COURT: That is correct. He has been on the 

stand previously.

MATTHEW LEVITT,

Testified on direct examination by Mr. Jonas as follows:

Q. Welcome back, Doctor Levitt. 

A. Pleasure. 

Q. I want to ask you some questions about certain exhibits 

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that have been admitted into this case since you testified 

last. Okay? 

MR. DRATEL: May we have a continuing objection.

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to start with one that has been marked as Marzook 

Defendant Phone Calls. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put it on the screen, please, 

and I will put an enlargement on the easel as soon as I can 

find it.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see that exhibit, Doctor Levitt?

A. I do.

Q. And you looked at it before. Correct?

A. I did.

Q. Okay. I am going to ask you some questions about this in 

a moment. I just want to establish that you have seen this 

and this is an exhibit we are going to talk about shortly. 

A. Okay.

Q. And what is your understanding of what this chart 

reflects?

A. It reflects phone calls between Mousa Abu Marzook at the 

various phone numbers on the left in blue with several of the 

Defendants marked in yellow or orange on the right between the 

period of 1989 and 1993. And the direction of the arrow 

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indicates the direction of the phone call.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If I can approach to give him this stack 

of exhibits?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt you have before you what 

has been marked as Marzook's Phonebook. Can you open that up, 

please? And there is -- You have the hard copy before you. 

Correct? The original?

A. Yes.

Q. These are also photocopies of that with the translations?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put Marzook Phonebook on the 

screen, page 48, please. 

Q. Doctor Levitt do you see the name of the Defendant 

Ghassan Elashi?

A. I do.

Q. Is it a 214 area code?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can put page 59, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see the name of the Defendant 

Mohammad El-Mezain anywhere? And he may be under his Abu 

name. 

A. The very last section the second name and a 201 area, 

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Mohamed Abu Ibrahim.

Q. Do you know where the 201 area code is?

A. New Jersey.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to page 63. 

Q. Doctor Levitt do you see the name of the Defendant Shukri 

Abu Baker on this screen?

A. Yes, in the second pairing, the second name Shukri Abu 

Baker, 310 area code.

Q. Doctor Levitt based upon your research as an expert, is 

there any significance to the fact that three of the 

Defendants' phone numbers are found in the phonebook of Hamas 

leader Mousa Abu Marzook?

A. It is. This is the personal phonebook -- 

MS. CADEDDU: We would object. 

MS. MORENO: 701 and 702, your Honor. 

MS. CADEDDU: And the written objections.

THE COURT: Those are overruled. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: It is significant. This is the 

personal phonebook of someone who is at the time the chief of 

the political wing of Hamas, and then became the deputy chief 

under Khalid Mishal. This is personal and direct evidence of 

a relationship. These people are in his personal literally 

black book.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I want to show you another chart, and 

this is Demonstrative No. 16. I am going to have this put on 

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the screen. You should have a copy of this before you also, 

Doctor Levitt. If you don't, do you see it on the screen?

A. I see it on the screen.

Q. Have you looked at this chart before?

A. I have.

Q. All right. Do you recognize any of the names of the 

people on the right hand side of the chart?

A. These are all names of Hamas leaders. Abdel Aziz 

al-Rantisi in Gaza, Khalid Mishal at the time in Jordan, Jamal 

Abu Baker at the time in Sudan, Mohamed Siam in Yemen, Imad 

al-Alami at the time in Iran, and Moustafa righteousness 

Syria.

Q. In fact, did you talk about some of these people during 

your first testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Many of these phone numbers were found -- there has been 

testimony that many of the phone numbers of these individuals 

on the right side of the screen that you have just identified 

have been found in Marzook's phonebook Is there any 

significance to that?

A. Yes, it is significant and it shouldn't surprise since 

these are Hamas officials on the right hand side of this 

chart, and Mousa Abu Marzook was and is one of the chief 

leaders of Hamas.

Q. And based upon your studies of Hamas, taking into account 

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everything you reviewed and the people you have everything you 

testified about in your first testimony, are the phone numbers 

of these individuals, as well as Mousa Abu Marzook, publicly 

available?

A. No.

Q. In your studies, have you found if anyone can get their 

phone numbers, these individuals' phone numbers?

A. I presume you mean just anyone. 

Q. Just anyone.

A. No. These dates are prior to the advent of the internet, 

but even in the age of the internet one cannot just go online 

and get the personal phone numbers of individuals who are 

officials of an organization like Hamas.

MR. JONAS: If we can put Hamas letter No. 1 on the 

screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And Doctor Levitt, you may have a copy of 

that in front of you, THE actually the original letter. Do 

you see -- What letterhead is this letter on, whose 

letterhead?

A. Hamas, the Islamic Resistance Movement, Palestine.

MR. JONAS: And if we can enlarge the bottom half.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you recognize the name of the 

individual who signed this letter?

A. Ibrahim Ghousheh we spoke about last time I was here, was 

at the time the primary spokesman of Hamas.

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Q. So the fact that it says Hamas spokesman under his name, 

is that consistent with your testimony?

A. I would think so, yes.

Q. Do you see under that there is a phone number? It says 

T-E-L -- 

A. Yes, there is a telephone number and a fax number.

Q. Do you recognize the country code for that phone number?

A. It is the country code for Jordan.

Q. The fact that there is a letter with Hamas letterhead and 

a phone number on it, what significance does that have to you 

in terms of the public's availability of contacting Hamas?

A. Well, people who had access --

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, we would object again. 

This is not the proper basis for an expert testimony. He 

hasn't been shown to be an expert on what these people do not 

have and have.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: This is a letter that was not made 

public to the world. Those who had access to this letter 

would have access to this phone number, of course. But it 

does clearly establish a connection between Hamas and this 

phone number.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Are you aware, based upon again your 

studies of Hamas and all the research you have done on the 

organization, if an individual were to call that number would 

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they be able to speak to Mousa Abu Marzook, Khalid Mishal, or 

any of the other individuals on Demonstrative No. 16, the 

chart that is on --

THE COURT: They have an objection before you answer 

that.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I have a different 

objection that he hasn't established any foundation that he 

knows whether phone numbers of individuals in these countries 

are available, whether they there are phonebooks or whether --

THE COURT: You may ask that on cross examination 

overruled. You may answer the question.

THE WITNESS: Can you ask the question again.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) If I can remember it. Based upon your 

research of Hamas, okay? Everything you have looked into in 

this organization, can anyone call the number that is on Hamas 

Letter No. 1, anyone meaning just someone from the public, 

call that number that is on Hamas Letter No. 1 on the bottom 

of that letter and ask to speak to Mousa Abu Marzook, Khalid 

Mishal, or any of the other individuals that you have 

identified as leaders of Hamas? And when I say ask to speak, 

I mean get a response where these individuals actually get on 

the phone. 

A. That is the answer is they can ask, but they are not 

likely to get the senior leaders of an organization, any 

organization, Hamas or some other organization. The boss 

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isn't going to pick up the public phone that is listed on a 

letter. You wouldn't get me if you called my office picking 

up the phone directly either.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I object. This is 

speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, have you formed an opinion 

regarding the significance of phone calls between the Holy 

Land Foundation and some of the Defendants and these leaders 

of Hamas that you have testified about?

A. The fact that there are connections with so many -- 

MS. MORENO: Objection, Your Honor; improper; no 

foundation; 701, 702, 703. 

.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: The fact that there are connections 

with so many Hamas leaders is not coincidental, cannot be 

coincidental. These are connections with individuals with 

whom most of them are not related, they are over a period of 

time. And most telling, they are in a period of time when 

these connections with Hamas would not have been so much of a 

problem for them, meaning prior to the designation of Hamas 

and in some cases prior to the Oslo Accords when it became 

more difficult to be perceived as being opposing the budding 

peace process. So this is when one would expect these types 

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of open communications to be prominent.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does it matter -- Well, withdrawn. The 

fact that it is more open during at this time period in the 

earlier '90s before Oslo and Hamas is designated, does it mean 

that these Hamas leaders are more open and available to the 

public?

MS. MORENO: Objection; leading.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer that.

THE WITNESS: No. And all the research I have done 

on Hamas, including on many of these leaders, I have never 

heard or seen of anybody just being able to call them up and 

being able to reach out, with the exception perhaps of Ibrahim 

Ghousheh who was a public spokesman and was relatively 

available in Jordan. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And just so I am clear, that covers the 

time period from the early '90s up through today?

A. Correct.

Q. Does the fact that some of these phone calls may have 

been a duration of one or two minutes make a difference in 

your analysis?

A. There is a lot of phone calls. Some of them are going to 

be long, some of them are going to be short, some of them are 

going to be short in succession, meaning someone really wanted 

to get through. It is the totality. And, of course, it is 

not just the phone calls either.

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MS. MORENO: Objection; non-responsive to the 

question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I want to pull up another chart, if we 

can. If we can pull up the chart of payments to K&A Trading. 

I believe you should have a copy of that in front of you, 

Doctor Levitt. 

Doctor Levitt, in your last testimony you talked about an 

individual named Khari al-Agha.

A. Correct.

Q. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. The evidence has since come in to show that there 

have been payments made to K&A Trading from the Occupied Land 

Fund, and that the bank records supporting this chart show 

that K&A Trading is Khari al-Agha.

Do you have any -- Have you reviewed this chart prior to 

testifying?

A. I have.

Q. Have you formed an opinion on the fact that the HLF, at 

the time the Occupied Land Fund, provided $250,000 to K&A 

Trading? Is there any significance to that?

A. The significance is, as I testified earlier, that Khari 

al-Agha is known to be a major fundraiser for Hamas. So here 

you have relatively significant financial relationship between 

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the Occupied Land Fund, which later became the Holy Land 

Foundation, and Khari al-Agha.

Q. Does it matter in your analysis that this was -- It was 

five transactions over a very short period of time that 

occurred in the late '80s. Does that play into your analysis 

at all?

A. Clearly in late '80s this was a means that they were -- 

funds being sent. I don't know what they were being sent for 

or why this was the method that they chose then and not later. 

What is significant is you have a significant financial 

connection.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up the chart K&A Money To 

Marzook. I think it is K&A/Marzook may be the title of the 

chart. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, you may have a copy of 

that chart in front of you. 

A. I do.

Q. Do you see this chart, Doctor Levitt? It is on the 

screen now. 

A. Yes, but it is different from what I have in my hand.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I will grab the chart from 

Doctor Levitt and put it on the elmo. It will be quicker. 

THE COURT: Sure.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I will try to zoom in so you can see it 

better.

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MR. WESTFALL: What is the title of the chart? 

MR. JONAS: The title of the chart is 

K.Agha/K&A/Marzook. It may have a longer title in the list. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, can you read that, or do 

you need me to zoom in further?

A. I can read it here.

Q. This chart reflects payments roughly in the same time 

period as the prior chart, a little bit after, between K&A 

Overseas Trading that same organization that the HLF sent 

money to, and Mousa Abu Marzook. Okay. We have it on the 

screen. Let me hand you back your copy. 

A. This is not the same.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Sorry, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, let me ask you, did you 

look at this chart reflecting payments between Khari al-Agha 

and Mousa Abu Marzook prior to testifying?

A. I did.

Q. Okay. What, if anything, did these payments -- How, if 

anything, did these payments play into your analysis of the 

money between the Holy Land Foundation and Khari al-Agha?

A. You have around the same period of time significant 

amounts of money going between and among these three parties, 

demonstrating the relationship between the Holy Land 

Foundation here, Khari al-Agha in Saudi Arabia, and Mousa Abu 

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Marzook the head of Hamas.

Q. Does this have any play in your analysis of who Khari 

al-Agha is?

A. I knew of Khari Al-Agha from beforehand, but it fits with 

the known information about him as a facilitator of 

fundraising for Hamas on behalf of people like Mousa Abu 

Marzook.

MR. JONAS: If we can now get the screen the chart 

of payments between Marzook and the Defendants that you had on 

before. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, you should have that one 

before you as well. On the screen, is that the chart you have 

before you?

A. Yes.

Q. And does this -- What does this reflect, this chart?

A. Payments between Mousa Abu Marzook and the Defendants, as 

it is entitled, primarily Occupied Land Fund and later under 

the name Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And what are the individual Defendants reflected on this 

chart. 

A. Shukri Abu Baker is on the chart several times, Holy Land 

Foundation, a member of the Elashi family, and Mousa Abu 

Marzook.

Q. If you can turn the page and scroll through, you may find 

other Defendants. 

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A. Ghassan Elashi, Mohammad El-Mezain, more Mohammad 

El-Mezain.

Q. Okay. Do you attach any significance to the movement of 

money between three of the Defendants plus the Holy Land 

Foundation and Mousa Abu Marzook? I mean, directly between 

them. 

A. Yes. This is a direct relationship, a financial 

relationship between the head of the Hamas organization and 

several of the Defendants, in relatively large sums of money, 

not all of them but many of them, which indicates not only a 

financial relationship but a relationship of trust. I mean, 

this is significant money.

Q. In your studies of Hamas, have you seen movement of money 

between Marzook and other individuals?

A. Not like this, no.

Q. These other individuals that we have seen movement of 

money for, are they individuals that you have learned were 

associated with Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to move on to another area, and I want to play 

just a couple of video clips for you. Okay? 

MR. JONAS: If we can play Mushtaha Search No. 9 clip C, 

please.

?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt do you recognize the 

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individual on the screen?

A. This is Abdullah Azzam.

Q. You have testified briefly about him in your last 

testimony. Can you remind us who he is?

A. Abdullah Azzam is largely considered kind of the father 

or figurehead of the jihadist movement. Originally from 

Palestine, he is seen as a source of inspiration for Hamas 

members, and is often cited by them, but also has been 

involved in other jihad causes elsewhere.

Q. All right. Let's play, and I am going to have some more 

questions about him in a moment.

Doctor Levitt, do you recall testifying about a term you 

used, economic jihad?

A. Yes.

Q. And I believe you had another term. 

A. Arabic jihad bin mal, jihad with money literally.

Q. Do you see what it says?

A. I told you last time I testified I didn't make up the 

term myself. Jihad with money.

Q. Do you place any significance, in your opinion based upon 

all your research, to the fact that this term is being used 

and on the screen at the moment that term is being used it 

says "Send your donations to Occupied Land Fund"?

A. I think it is extremely significant. The message is 

everyone has an obligation if they can't go themselves to 

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participate in a physical jihad -- Again, we talked about the 

common sense test. This is not a jihad for self-improvement. 

This is a jihad of fighting the enemy. And if you can't do it 

one's self, one should be doing it by providing one's money to 

those who can. And if you are at all in doubt where to send 

your money, that is being flashed on the screen for you as 

Abdullah Azzam himself is speaking. "Send your donations to 

the Occupied Land Fund."

MR. JONAS: If we can play Elbarasse Search No. 32, 

please, Clip I.

MR. DRATEL: Can we get a date on this, Your Honor, 

please.

THE COURT: Counsel? 

MR. JONAS: I believe the videotape is dated around 

1988, although seized in 2004, I think. 

?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, you testified just now 

that Abdullah Azzam was an inspiration?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you elaborate on that, and as well discuss the words 

that he is saying that are on the screen now?

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, this is beyond the scope of 

what this particular aspect of his testimony was going to be 

at this time.

THE COURT: Overruled.

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MR. DRATEL: I don't see how it is related.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: As mentioned earlier, Abdullah Azzam 

was himself a Palestinian and before moving on to other venues 

was involved in orchestrating small scale attacks against 

Israel. But much more significantly was his role as an 

ideologue or as an inspiration and the way that he describes 

the need to live with self-respect or die honorably, that 

Palestinians need to pledge themselves to death, is something 

that has come full circle, as it is not uncommon for Hamas 

suicide bomb bombers and the living wills that they tape 

before going out on their suicide mission -- 

MR. DRATEL: I object to al-Moayad in particular.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: -- to specifically cite Abdullah Azzam 

in that living will.

MR. JONAS: One more video clip, please. Mushtaha 

Search No. 1 B.

MR. DRATEL: Can we get a date on this one, too, 

please, Your Honor? 

MR. JONAS: I believe it is 1990, but again seized 

with the other Mushtaha tapes in 2004, 2005.

(Whereupon, Mushtaha Search No. 1 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, you saw that was the 

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Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain talking about Abdullah Azzam?

A. Correct.

Q. How public a figure was Abdullah Azzam?

A. He was an extremely public figure.

Q. Was he accessible to anybody and everybody?

A. No. He was a public figure in the fact that he was 

well-known, but he was not accessible to the general public.

Q. I want to move on and show you what has been marked as 

HLF Search No. 87. You should have that before you. 

MR. JONAS: For the record, I am going to put the 

enlargement on this is the overseas speakers chart.

Q. Have you looked at this prior to testifying, Doctor 

Levitt?

A. I have.

Q. Do you recognize any names?

A. I do.

Q. Who do you recognize?

A. A lot of names. Bassam Jarrar for example, is a Hamas 

sheikh in the West Bank; Hamed Bitawi we discussed last time I 

was here, a senior Hamas official; Ahem Zahar we discussed 

last time another, a senior Hamas official; Mohammed Siam 

towards the bottom of the page. 

There are several members of the Islamic Action Front in 

Jordan that we discussed last time as well, Deeb Anees Mansour 

and others. 

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And there are more names on the second page as well, 

including people like Yusuf Qaradawi who we discussed last 

time as the head of the Union of Good which serves as an 

umbrella organization for charities sending money to Hamas 

from around the world, as well as Rashid Ghanoushi Muslim 

Brotherhood activists, al-Nahda, Tunisia, and others.

Q. In your studies of Hamas, have you come across any 

institutions that uses a collection of individuals like you 

just described?

A. It is not uncommon for Hamas institutions to use 

individuals like this as speakers, fundraisers on their 

behalf.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, may I approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am going to show you what is in 

evidence as El-Mezain Wiretap No. This is a collection of 

faxes. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up the first page.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, do you see what is on the 

screen?

A. I do.

Q. And if you want to flip through the book, is this 

document on the screen, page 1, just a representative of the 

faxes, a majority of the faxes contained in this exhibit?

A. Yes, it is.

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Q. Have you seen this type of document before?

A. I have.

Q. Where?

A. In the course of this case and others, in the course of 

my research, after material had become public from other 

cases. You can see at the top from the fax line this is from 

the IAP Information Office, the Islamic Association for 

Palestine.

Q. And what is it about this document -- Do you connect this 

document to Hamas, these faxes, in any way?

A. It is easier for me to do it once we have the translated 

version, but the IAP Information Office served as an 

information office for Hamas. As we discussed in my last 

testimony, they had publicized and translated the Hamas 

charter, and would send out via fax Hamas communiques of 

various types commenting on political events, taking 

responsibility for attacks, et cetera.

Q. Okay. Doctor Levitt, with regard to the various exhibits 

we have looked at, the telephonic contact, the monetary 

contact, Azzam videos and the use of Azzam on videos with the 

HLF, have you formed an opinion regarding the significance of 

all these contacts with these Hamas leaders?

A. There is a totality of different types of contacts which 

are beyond circumstantial or coincidental. What you have here 

is individuals who are in contact of various types with all 

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kinds of Hamas officials and supporters, suggesting some type 

of relationship.

Q. Is this common?

A. No.

Q. Have you seen this type of contact before, this level of 

contact?

A. In my experience I have seen this level of contact 

before, but only in the context of activity in cooperation 

with groups like this.

Q. Does it factor into your opinion that a lot of this 

contact was before Hamas was designated as a terrorist 

organization?

A. It is what one would expect to find.

Q. Can you explain?

A. That is to say that the more sensitive activity, that is 

to say activity in cooperation with a group like Hamas, a 

terrorist organization, would be much more -- expected to be 

more covert -- 

MR. DRATEL: I object, Your Honor. There is no 

evidence of that. 

THE COURT: Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: Would be expected to be more covert, 

meaning you would expect to find fewer phone calls or emails 

or different types of public interaction after a group is 

designated and that becomes contact with a banned illegal 

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organization. 

Frankly, you would even expect it a little bit as in this 

case '93 or '94 when the Oslo peace process started, because 

then, too, it became -- that kind of contact was contact with 

an organization that was -- seemed, deemed, and perceived to 

be opposing the peace process which had great promise at the 

time. And so the question are there relationships that 

continue, such as the speakers bureau list, for example, or 

other types of activities, for example, ongoing relationships 

with some of the committees, the charity committees, the zakat 

committees in the West Bank and Gaza that were tied to Hamas, 

does that continue, or does all of the relationships cease.

MR. JONAS: I will pass the witness. 

THE WITNESS: One of these folders, just so you know 

is empty.

MR. DRATEL: May we approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Sure. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. DRATEL: Doctor Levitt's testimony transgressed 

I think all bounds of permissible expert testimony, not only 

in regard to the opinions that he is issuing with respect to 

the Mejia opinion, but the content as well, specific content. 

The al-Moayad opinion that reversed the conviction had the 

very same -- 

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THE COURT: Counsel, I don't want to hear a lot of 

argument right now. We have got a jury waiting. I understand 

you are objecting. I will hear argument later. What is your 

objection? 

MR. DRATEL: I am asking for a mistrial.

THE COURT: Deny that. 

MR. DRATEL: Or in the alternative that his 

testimony be stricken and the jury be instructed to disregard.

MS. HOLLANDER: We would join that.

MS. CADEDDU: As do I on behalf of Mr. Abdulqader.

MS. MORENO: Join on behalf of Mr. Elashi as well.

MS. HOLLANDER: I have one other request. It is 

12:20. I wonder if we could break so we can start our crosses 

-- It will be a lot better if you give us lunch.

THE COURT: Who is going to start the cross? Have 

you decided that? 

MS. HOLLANDER: We will decide it --

THE COURT: I will ask when we come back. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: We will go ahead and break and begin the 

cross examination after lunch. 

Let me go over a couple of things. For your planning 

tomorrow, I have got a matter in the afternoon that I am going 

to have to tend to, so we will work through the lunch hour, 

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work until 1:00, like we did that last time, and then you will 

be done for the day. And then next week we will plan on 

working on Monday through Thursday. And we will plan on 

working a little later again tonight like we did last night to 

make up for some of the hours that we are missing tomorrow. 

So we be back at a quarter to 2:00, 1:45. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 1:45.

(Lunch Recess.)

THE COURT: For the lawyers, while the jury is 

coming in, that matter we were discussing at the bench right 

before lunch, remind me and we will have another sidebar at 

the break. I did have the phone conversation.

And who is up? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, on behalf of Mr. Abu 

Baker I have no questions of this witness.

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall?

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, on behalf of Abdul Odeh I 

have no questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Dratel? 

MR. DRATEL: Same. On behalf of Mr. El-Mezain no 

questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Cline or Ms. Moreno? 

MS. MORENO: No questions on behalf of Mr. Elashi 

based on this testimony.

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THE COURT: Ms. Cadeddu? 

MS. CADEDDU: No questions for Mr. Abdulqader.

THE COURT: Doctor Levitt, you are free to go. You 

may step down. You are free to go.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, the Government calls Dawn 

Goldberg. 

Your Honor, she will be up here any moment. 

THE COURT: That is fine. 

MR. JONAS: I will just wait outside for her. 

THE COURT: That is fine. 

While we are doing that, I will ask counsel to come up 

and we will have the bench conference that we were talking 

about. 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

THE COURT: I did have that phone conversation with 

Mr. McPherson. It was a short one. It wasn't classified. We 

just talked about the logistics. And he is going to fax me 

the index this afternoon. 

MR. JONAS: And it is coming to us? 

THE COURT: Yes. And so then bring that up to us. 

And what we discussed, preliminarily, tentatively, they will 

have somebody here next Thursday. And they need to be here 

until I finish looking at it. We will look some Thursday 

afternoon, and then of course all of Friday since we won't be 

in Court, and hopefully finish it then. 

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What I am going to do is I am going to look at the index. 

He doesn't think it is going to be particularly helpful, as he 

told you, but the way he described it, I want to take a look 

at it to see if that will help me narrow. 

And then he also mentioned about perhaps--it is several 

thousand pages--about maybe sending a sample. So I am going 

to look at the index and give that sample issue some thought. 

And then I told him I would let him know no later than Monday 

exactly what to send.

MR. JONAS: May I make a suggestion? The Defense 

may object to my suggestion. You may want to narrow your time 

frame, because the majority of the ones that we saw were mid 

2000s forward. I don't know if that helps or not. In other 

words, the time period that the Defense is interested in, 

because this came up through the testimony of Mr. Abington, 

was in the '90s. So if Your Honor wants to look at the time 

period, that is going to cut out a significant number of 

these.

THE COURT: That is a good point.

MR. CLINE: I think that is actually a useful -- 

THE COURT: So what time period would you be looking 

at, then? 

MR. CLINE: We would be looking at I would 

say -- When did Abington -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: I would say -- 

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MR. CLINE: '97? 

MS. HOLLANDER: You mean, when did he leave there? 

MR. JONAS: Can I make a decision. If you would 

just say up to 2000, that will be a huge difference.

MR. CLINE: Why don't we cut it off at 2000.

THE COURT: Through 2000? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Up to.

MR. CLINE: I would say through 2000. 

One other suggestion, Your Honor, and some courts have 

done this in these cases, it happened in Libby, it happened in 

North, in Poindexter, I think, you might consider--and this is 

in the supplement we filed, I think--letting us come in and ex 

parte but without seeing the documents give you obviously a 

somewhat hypothetical argument about what you might want to 

look for.

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. JONAS: I think there is no secret here, Your 

Honor, considering we went through the last trial, so I don't 

see the need for an ex parte. 

THE COURT: We could do an ex parte on the record. 

Frankly, it can be helpful to me in terms of -- Because I know 

you all look at things differently and I look at things 

differently, so I don't always have quite their perspective, 

so that could be helpful to me.

MR. CLINE: And certainly on the record. No 

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question about that.

THE COURT: And just have it there. That is a good 

idea.

MS. HOLLANDER: If we go through 2000, will that cut 

out a lot? 

MR. JONAS: I would say at least 75 percent is my 

estimate.

THE COURT: Let's do that, then. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Let's do that. 

MS. MORENO: Are we done with this subject? 

MR. JONAS: I am. 

MS. MORENO: I just wanted to make sure. 

On a completely unrelated issue but with respect to the 

next witness after Dawn Goldberg is Steven McGonigle, Your 

Honor, and the Defense is requesting the admission of three or 

four photographs. I have shown then to Mr. Jonas. I think he 

will probably want to make objections. I have them for you to 

look at, so whenever it is opportune.

MS. HOLLANDER: I actually have some, too.

THE COURT: If you have them I can be looking at 

them.

MR. JONAS: Are the ones you plan on doing in the 

email you sent? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am not sure.

MR. JONAS: I have the ones they sent in the email.

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THE COURT: How long do you expect putting on Dawn 

Goldberg?

MR. JONAS: Not long. I think Dawn Goldberg will be 

maybe a half an hour, assuming cross is the same as last time.

MS. MORENO: Not long. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, may I be excused? 

THE COURT: Certainly. 

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, Mr. McGonigle is a reporter 

for the Dallas Morning News, and he testified in the first 

trial. And his testimony, and I anticipate because Mr. Jonas 

has told me it is going to be the same testimony essentially, 

that he went to Gaza and he met with Mr. Abu Moharram, and in 

fact he talks about Mr. Abu Moharram and he talks about what 

he saw in Gaza, the conditions. And he also says he went to 

the Holy Land office in Gaza. 

This is all I am asking is to admit -- First of all, I am 

going to ask him to try to lay the predicate about Mr. 

Moharram and then ask him if he can identify Mr. Moharram and 

then also ask him if he went to the Gaza office, which I am 

sure Mr. Jonas will bring up in direct like he did in the 

first trial. I am going to show him that, can he identify 

this, and if he can, Your Honor, I think the predicate will be 

laid. I think it is relevant because -- so I think the 

foundation will be laid, and I think, as this gentleman 

actually went to Gaza saw these conditions and met 

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Mr. Moharram and went there. 

But the relevance issue, which is the objection I 

anticipate also from the Prosecution, my answer to that, Your 

Honor, is that his testimony is being offered by the 

Government to show that the Holy Land Foundation principals, 

including my client, actually manipulated the interviews that 

Mr. McGonigle had in Gaza with Sheikh Yassin and Mahmoud 

Zahar. Again, this shows the intent of our clients, that this 

was charitable work. And he will talk a little bit about that 

charitable work. I know this because he did this in the first 

trial. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. MORENO: And also there are, as you can see, 

Your Honor, there are Holy Land logo shirts.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. MORENO: So that is it. 

MS. HOLLANDER: These are also on the list. And I 

go after Linda, so I may or may not offer these. But they 

are --

THE COURT: Similar? 

MS. HOLLANDER: They are all the same person. And 

the only one that is different, and this is the one I don't 

know if you saw, he may or may not mention this this time that 

what he saw at the office, and last time he mentioned that he 

saw the backpacks. I don't know if he is even going to 

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mention it this time. So I was going to show him this one, 

but then I discovered it was Lebanon.

MR. JONAS: With regard to these pictures, we are 

going to object to the foundation. Ms. Moreno says it is 

charity, but this witness doesn't know what is going on in 

these pictures. So I am going to ask if I can voir dire the 

witness to ask him the same questions Mr. Jacks did. 

With regard to the picture Ms. Hollander showed, I think 

that is even further removed. There is no Holy Land logos or 

anything on that one.

MS. HOLLANDER: And I may or may not introduce it.

MR. JONAS: If she does introduce it. 

THE COURT: If she seeks to.

MR. JONAS: I have a stronger objection. 

THE COURT: All right. 

MR. JONAS: And Ms. Goldberg is here. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, as previously stated, the 

United States calls Dawn Goldberg. 

If I may approach the witness stand and give her the 

exhibits?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(Whereupon, the oath was administered by the Clerk.)

DAWN GOLDBERG,

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Testified on direct examination by Mr. Jonas as follows:

Q. Ms. Goldberg, what do you do for a living? 

A. I work for the Internal Revenue Service as a revenue 

agent.

Q. Okay. And how long have you been with the IRS?

A. Since 1985.

Q. What is a revenue agent?

A. The revenue agent is basically the accounting position 

for the Internal Revenue Service. We look at books and 

records, we do examinations, we do audits.

Q. Okay. You said accounting or counting?

A. Accounting.

Q. Accounting. Okay. Who does the IRS audit?

A. We audit -- Well, a revenue agent has a full realm. We 

can audit individual tax returns, we can do business returns, 

we can look at returns for tax exempt organizations.

Q. Okay. Do you yourself conduct audits?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is the IRS divided into different divisions and groups 

and sub groups?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. What part of the IRS are you with?

A. I actually work for an organization which is called Tax 

Exempt Government Entities, and the business unit under that 

is Exempt Organizations.

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Q. Tax Exempt Government Entities. Is that what you said?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is a sub unit under that called what?

A. Exempt Organizations.

Q. Okay. What is an exempt organization?

A. What is an exempt organization? 

Q. Yes, ma'am. 

A. An exempt organization is an organization that is a 

non-profit that is basically not paying taxes. It doesn't pay 

tax.

Q. Are you familiar with something called the 501(c)(3) 

organization?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that?

A. The Internal Revenue Code has different subsections, and 

501(c)(3) is a subsection within the Code. That is the subset 

that talks about organizations that are tax exempt. That is 

the largest of all the tax exempt organizations. 

Q. Are there different codes or sub codes within the IRS 

Code that address these tax exempt organizations? Are there 

different sections within the IRS code that addresses 

organizations that can be tax exempt?

A. Yes, sir. Well, there is approximately 30 different 

types of tax exempt organizations. 501(c)(3) is the largest 

category.

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Q. Okay. So that covers a few types of tax exempt 

organizations?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What type of tax exempt organizations are covered by 

501(c)(3)?

A. The largest part of that is going to be the charitable, 

religious, educational organizations, scientific purposes.

Q. Okay. For purposes of your testimony here today, I just 

want to focus on charities. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And to be clear, charities fall under 501(c)(3)?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does an organization have to do in order to become a 

501(c)(3) tax exempt charity?

A. In general, an organization that wants to be recognized 

as tax exempt would submit an application, which is a Form 

1023, to the Internal Revenue Service. The application is 

submitted with some basic information for us to determine 

whether they are going to operate -- whether they are 

organized and operated for an exempt purpose.

Q. Okay. Would that application go to your section?

A. No. There is actually -- Within the Exempt Organization 

Business Unit there is actually three sections. There is the 

Examination Section, which I am a part of; the Rulings and 

Agreement which handles the applications, which would be what 

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we call the Determinations Section, where they actually get 

the applications and determine whether they should be exempt; 

and we have a Customer Education Section.

Q. Okay. So the section that it is sent to, you said, is 

Rulings and -- 

A. Rulings and Agreements, yes, sir.

Q. What information is supplied on the application?

A. Well, the application begins with a general 

information--the organization's name, their address, it goes 

into their activities, who the officers are, it talks about 

their financial, either proposed or current financial 

information, and -- 

Q. Does it also include their charitable purpose?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. And when it is submitted, what happens?

A. In general, the application is submitted to our folks in 

Cincinnati, and they evaluate it. And again, all applications 

are looked at by somebody who is an exempt organization. They 

are going to look at it for activities to make sure their 

activities are related to an exempt reason, and then they are 

going to look at -- If everything required is submitted, let's 

say their activities are correct and all the required 

documentations are provided, because they send us their 

articles of incorporation and their bylaws, if they submit 

everything required, we basically issue a favorable ruling, 

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which means they get a determination letter saying that we 

recognize them as tax exempt.

Q. So basically if they supply all the information you need, 

they get the tax exempt status?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What happens if they don't supply all the information you 

need?

A. If information is missing or if the activities don't seem 

to be for an exempt purpose, it would get assigned to an 

exempt organization specialist who would be working with the 

organizations to correct or get additional information on the 

application.

Q. Are you familiar with something called an employer 

identification number?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do they also go by the acronym EIN?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that?

A. An EIN is similar to a social security number, also 

called an SSN. It is a unique number assigned to a business 

entity.

Q. Okay. I ask you to slow down a little bit. 

A. Yes, sir. Sorry.

Q. It is okay. Does the IRS try to work with organizations 

in order for them to get their tax exempt status?

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A. The whole point of the Determinations Section, the Ruling 

Agreement Section, is that is what their function is. They 

are there -- If somebody submits an application that is 

missing information or doesn't quite tell us what they are 

doing that qualifies to be exempt, we will work with them to 

have the application be corrected.

Q. So it is customer friendly?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What type of investigation, if any, does the IRS do of 

the entity or organization that is applying for tax exempt 

status to make sure that it is a true charity?

A. Well, since the application 1023 is submitted under 

penalties of perjury, signed under penalties of perjury, we 

are believing -- we work on the assumption that the 

application is correct as filed, so we don't do any 

investigations.

Q. So do most organizations that apply for tax exempt status 

get it?

A. It is my understanding, sir, they do.

Q. Are you familiar with something called the Form 990?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that?

A. That is the annual information return that a tax exempt 

organization files.

Q. If an organization is tax exempt, why do they need to 

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file a return with the IRS?

A. The Form 990 is actually not a tax return. It is an 

information return. And what that is, it puts out information 

to the public -- Not only does it tell the IRS what the 

organization is doing so we can make sure they are still 

operating for an exempt purpose, but it also tells the public 

what activities involved in, what their finances look like, 

who the officers are, so that the public can make an informed 

decision on whether to donate to this organization or not 

donate to the organization.

Q. Are most tax returns made available to the public?

A. Most Form 990s? 

Q. All tax returns?

A. No, sir, not all tax returns.

Q. But are 990s made available to the public?

A. Because Form 990s are an information return, they are a 

public record. In fact, there are several web sites. You can 

actually pull them up online.

Q. What information is called for on a Form 990?

A. The Form 990 begins with the basic 

information--organization's name, address, their EIN, employer 

identification number, it goes into the income of the 

organization, it talks about the expenses of the organization, 

officers, the activities.

Q. Does it list out where they gave their money to in 

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furtherance of the charitable purpose?

A. Absolutely; yes, sir.

Q. Do charities ever have their Form 990s or their 

organizations audited?

A. They could. That is the section I am assigned to.

Q. That is what you do?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When a charity is audited, what exactly do you look 

through? What sort of documents and such are you looking 

through?

A. Well, the organization of a Form 990 tax exempt 

organization is a little different than looking at the 1040 

for the individual or a corporate return. The 990 

examination, we are looking at not only the financial records 

but we are also looking at the activities--what is the 

organization doing, we would look at things like their 

website, their meeting minutes, we would look at if they had 

any contracts, anything that would show us what kind of 

activities the organization was involved in.

Q. Meeting minutes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What exactly is that?

A. Meeting minutes are basically notes taken from -- during 

a meeting.

Q. And that is the type of thing -- What do you look for 

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when you are doing an audit of a charity in a meeting minute? 

What type of information are you trying to gather?

A. Again, because it is an activity examination, we are 

trying to find out what kind of activities they are involved 

in, where their money is going, what kind of donations they 

are receiving.

Q. And that is usually reflected in meeting minutes?

A. It should be reflected -- Normally it is reflected in 

meeting minutes.

Q. Can you -- I should have done this a few minutes ago. 

Can you define what you mean by meeting minutes?

A. Define what we mean -- 

Q. When you say meeting minutes, just give us exactly what 

you mean. What is a minute of a meeting?

A. For example, if a board of directors gets together for an 

annual meeting or a periodic meeting, there will be people 

present and somebody would take notes, and those are 

considered meeting minutes.

Q. So is it like the transcript of what you are saying now, 

though maybe not word for word?

A. Correct. Usually it is like a summary what happened 

during that time.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, a couple of exhibits I 

forgot to show that I need to put up there. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Ms. Goldberg, I just handed you two 

exhibits that are already in evidence. If you look at HLF 

Search No. 5. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) It is on the screen, and you have the 

hard copy before you. What is this document, if you can 

identify it from your job. 

A. This appears to be the board meeting minutes for the 

Occupied Land Fund from the date 16th to 18th February, 1991.

Q. And who does it say the board members that are in 

attendance?

A. Present was Mohammad El-Mezain chairman; Ghassan Elashi; 

and Shukri Abu Baker. Sorry.

Q. It is okay. Is there anything unusual 

about -- Withdrawn. Is this the type of documentation you 

would look through in conducting an audit of a charity?

A. Certainly.

Q. Have you looked through this before testifying today?

A. I did look at this briefly a couple of days ago.

Q. Okay. Can you just tell us if there is anything unusual 

about these board meeting minutes?

A. Well, it has an agenda which talks about what they are 

going to talk about. It has the action plan of what their 

objectives are. It talks about their budget, the report. It 

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appears to be regular meeting minutes.

Q. Nothing unusual?

A. No, sir.

Q. Okay. Also before you is what has been marked and in 

evidence as Elbarasse Search No. 15. 

MR. JONAS: Can we do a split screen? 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, may we approach for just one 

moment?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. CLINE: Ms. Goldberg I don't believe testified 

in this area last year, so I am surmising that what Mr. Jonas 

has in mind is to show her what they consider to be the Arabic 

minutes of the Palestine Committee meeting that happened 

around the same time, and inquire whether there is something 

unusual about having two sets of minutes and so on. 

The bottom line is she has never looked at these 

documents in the course of her work; only for her testimony. 

The company was never audited. These minutes were never 

examined. She doesn't even have records that go back this far 

because the IRS didn't keep them. So it is entirely 

speculative on her part. 

She is not testifying as an expert, and I think it is 

beyond her personal knowledge, it is speculative, and it is 

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403 material to allow her to start comparing these two sets of 

minutes, if that is what he has in mind. 

MR. JONAS: My question is going to be -- First of 

all, I don't think we ever posed this whole Elbarasse Search 

No. 15 is Palestine Committee minutes. I think we postured 

that they are minutes of the HLF board of director meetings, 

and maybe there is more to it. Anyhow, this is the type of 

the material she reviews when she conducts audits. She just 

testified to that. 

My question is going to be is there anything unusual 

about these other minutes meetings which I think are pretty 

clear on the face is from the same meeting--the dates, the 

locations are the same. It says The Fund in Elbarasse one, 

and "Is there anything unusual?" And she is going to testify 

that, "I would expect there is information in the Elbarasse 

one that I would expect to be in the HLF one, that I normally 

would expect to see."

MR. CLINE: That assumes that they are the same 

meeting, and we don't concede that they are, and there has 

been no testimony that they are. It is equally plausible that 

there was a Palestine Committee meeting that occurred in the 

same place and overlaps. These actually aren't the same. 

They overlap, but they are not the same.

MR. JONAS: I think two points. One, it goes to 

weight and argument. Two, if you want to concede that your 

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client was a part of the Palestine Committee and this was 

minutes of a meeting that he attended, then I would be happy 

to withdraw the question.

MR. CLINE: I am not conceding anything, but my 

point is that this witness has no personal knowledge of this 

whatsoever, and to ask her to compare and draw inferences -- 

THE COURT: But she is comparing and drawing 

inferences from documents that are in evidence.

MR. CLINE: The documents are in evidence, but they 

are not documents that she has any knowledge of. She is going 

to be drawing inferences -- 

THE COURT: But from her knowledge. You are asking 

her based on her experience? 

MR. JONAS: Her experience as an auditor of 

charities and the type of material that she looks through when 

she audits charities, is this what she would normally see, and 

she -- 

THE COURT: Why is that improper for her to look at 

documents that are in evidence based on her experience? 

MR. CLINE: Because she doesn't know what these 

documents are. She is going to --

THE COURT: I understand that is subject to 

questioning, but why doesn't that go to weight? I am talking 

about what she is going to say. Looking at these documents, 

you are going to ask her to compare them. I don't have the 

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documents before me. I am assuming it is something that can 

be argued either way as to whether it is the same meeting or 

not. It would appear to go to the weight. You all can argue 

that, and the jury can make its own determination. But what 

she is going to say, that is not what she will testify about. 

She is going to look at the documents. You are going to ask 

her what is in the documents, and she will give her opinion. 

MR. CLINE: But the premise of her opinion -- And by 

the way, she is not an expert.

THE COURT: He is asking her to talk about what she 

does, so she can do that.

MR. CLINE: The premise is going to be that these 

are basically a double set of minutes from the same meeting.

THE COURT: I understand, and I understand you are 

disputing that. But what I am saying, why doesn't that go to 

the weight and the jury has to resolve that? Her opinion 

isn't going to go to whether they are the same meeting or the 

same organizations or the same meetings, but just what is on 

the documents. She is not going to give any opinion on this 

disputed issue between the parties. 

MR. CLINE: I think at some point weight figures 

into the 403 calculus, because you are weighing probative 

value against unfair prejudice.

THE COURT: Why is this unfair prejudice? 

MR. CLINE: Because the implication through this 

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witness' testimony on a matter for which she has no personal 

knowledge is that these are two sets of minutes from the same 

meeting, and that is an unfair inference to permit to be 

drawn.

THE COURT: It might depend on the conclusion that 

is drawn as to that issue, which will be for the jury. She is 

not going to make that conclusion.

MR. CLINE: Well, I am a little worried she is going 

to.

MR. JONAS: I am going to ask her do the dates and 

locations match up, which they do. 

THE COURT: But that is from documents.

MR. JONAS: It is from the documents. And the 

document talks about the Fund, which I think we have 

established the Fund is a shorthand term for --

THE COURT: There is evidence to that.

MR. JONAS: So I am not going to ask her to draw a 

conclusion that they are same, but I am just going to ask her 

those questions and let the jury draw their own conclusion.

MR. CLINE: I think the question only has 

significance if they are from the same meeting.

THE COURT: I understand. 

MR. JONAS: It is cross examination.

THE COURT: And I think that is an issue that is in 

dispute, and I think that still goes to the weight. I 

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overrule the objection. You may ask about that. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Ms. Goldberg, I am assuming you had a 

moment to look at Elbarasse Search No. 15 while we were on the 

sidebar. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can do a split screen, please. On 

Elbarasse Search No. 15, can we go to the first page of the 

English? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Ms. Goldberg, Elbarasse Search No. 15, 

which is the Arabic document, what is the date of that? The 

date of the meeting?

A. "The following issues have been agreed on during the 

meetings of the board of directors in the city of Los Angeles 

on 2/17/1991."

Q. And how does that compare to the date of the meeting 

minutes HLF Search No. 5, the ones in English?

A. It is the same dates. The other one is 16th through 18th 

of February.

Q. How about location?

A. Same location, Los Angeles.

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Q. And does the Elbarasse Search No. 15, the Arabic one, 

does that indicate anywhere as to who it is addressed to? 

What organization? You may find that near the top. 

A. It is addressed to "Dear brother, chairman of the board 

of directors of the Fund. May God keep and protect him."

Q. And whose board meeting minutes are HLF Search No. 5, 

which is the English one?

A. I am sorry. What is the question?

Q. What organization is on HLF Search No. 5?

A. The Occupied Land Fund.

Q. Okay. Now, Ms. Goldberg, is there anything unusual about 

these two documents? Based upon your experience as someone 

who conducts audits for the IRS, and that these are the type 

of documents you would look at, is there anything unusual, now 

looking at these two documents?

A. Well, there are some contradictory information. In the 

Arabic document it talks about the Fund is going to pay 

$25,000 annually to the Central Committee. It talks about 

brother Baker's salary is going to be $36,000 annually.

Q. I am sorry. Say that again. 

A. "Brother Shukri Abu Baker's salary will be $36,000 

annually, including everything. Brother Ghassan Elashi will 

commit to working four hours daily at the Fund as a public 

relations." These are items that should be in the general 

meeting minutes.

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Q. Are they?

A. I didn't see any indication of that, sir.

Q. Okay. Thank you. You can put that aside.

With regard to charities, are there -- 501(c)(3) 

charities, are there any type of restrictions on what they can 

do with their money?

A. Well, certainly. 501(c)(3) says an organization has to 

be operated for an exempt purpose. So the expenses have to be 

related to the exempt purpose. They couldn't use any of the 

funds for, like, benefiting an insider. An officer or 

director couldn't be paying themselves excessive salaries. 

They can't do any political activity. They can't do anything 

illegal. The earnings have to cannot inure to the benefit of 

someone.

Q. What do you mean by inure to the benefit of someone?

A. The money cannot actually be used for someone's personal 

use.

Q. Okay. When you say they can't do anything illegal, what 

do you mean by that?

A. Well --

Q. More specifically, with regard to the funds that they are 

distributing that are ostensibly for the charitable purposes, 

can you explain -- Does the statement you made about they 

can't do anything illegal relate to their distribution of 

funds?

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A. Well, because a 501(c)(3) is a public charity, it has to 

benefit the public. It has to be doing public good. If it is 

doing something illegal, that is not really in the public 

interest. So that would not be a good thing.

Q. Are these restrictions, such as not using the money for 

anything illegal, published anywhere?

A. Yes, sir. There has been published guidance since at 

least the 1980s.

Q. Published by whom?

A. Published by the Internal Revenue Service.

Q. Does the IRS expect a charity to be familiar with these 

type of restrictions?

A. Well, a charity is like any other business. They need to 

know what their responsibilities are and follow the law.

Q. In 1995, Hamas was designated as a specially designated 

terrorist organization, making it illegal to give money to 

Hamas. Is a charity allowed to make payments to a terrorist 

organization that has been designated by the United States 

government?

A. Absolutely not.

Q. How about if Hamas was using the money for what would 

appear to be charitable purposes?

A. It wouldn't make a difference. It is still benefiting 

Hamas.

Q. Is there anywhere in the Form 990 that would reflect a 

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charity being able to give money to a terrorist organization?

A. Well, since a tax exempt organization, cannot give to a 

terrorist organization, there wouldn't be a place for it on 

the 990.

Q. Have you heard of the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you aware if they themselves became a 501(c)(3) tax 

exempt organization?

A. I received information on their application, so yes, I am 

aware they are tax exempt, sir.

Q. You have before you HLF -- what has been marked and not 

in evidence HLF Tax No. 10. I am sort of skipping to the 

bottom of the pile first. Without reading the contents of the 

document, what is that?

A. This is the Form 1023 application for recognition of 

exemption.

Q. Is that the application filed when someone wants to 

become a tax exempt organization?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whose name is that in?

A. It is under the name of the Occupied Land Fund.

Q. Is that a certified copy? In other words, the blue sheet 

in front of it, does it make it certified?

A. Yes, sir. It says "Certificate of official record."

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

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into evidence HLF Tax No. 10. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Ms. Goldberg, you said this is for 

Occupied Land Fund. Is this document signed by anybody?

A. On the front page it is signed by -- The signature is a 

little blurry, but yes, it is signed.

Q. Can you read the name? If not, don't worry about it. 

A. It looks like the last name is Elashi, secretary.

MR. CLINE: We will stipulate, Your Honor.

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does this have an employment 

identification number, the EIN number you testified about 

earlier?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what is that number?

A. 95-4227517.

Q. 95-422?

A. That is what it appears to be on this copy.

Q. Okay. 

A. Maybe it is a 922.

Q. Okay. It is either 922 or 422. But you are going to 

talk about their number again later on?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In other documents?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. And on other documents is it typewritten?

A. I believe so, sir.

Q. Okay. Does it say anywhere in this Form 1023 what the 

charitable purpose of the Occupied Land Fund was purported to 

be?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Where is that?

A. On the second page, which is Part III, activities and 

operational information.

Q. Okay. Can you read that? 

A. "The organization has developed out of a working 

relationship with another non-profit organization by which it 

has acquired the experience needed to carry out its goals. 

Its goals include principally to provide disaster and medical 

relief to refugees in war torn areas of the world, and to make 

contributions to other organizations that have charitable 

activities benefiting the poor and indigent needy throughout 

the world. The organization is ready to commence mail 

solicitation activities under its own auspices, but will wait 

appropriate approval of its exempt status with the Internal 

Revenue Service. It has incorporated itself under the laws of 

the State of California as a non-profit public benefit 

corporation, and has applied for exemption from taxation 

within that state."

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Q. If an organization is part of a larger organization, 

should that be reflected anywhere on this form?

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. An affiliation where there is a larger organization that 

oversees it. 

A. Certainly.

Q. Is there anything like that contained within the Form 

1023? In fact, let me be more specific with my question. 

Does it say anywhere in this Form 1023 that the Holy Land 

Foundation, or the Occupied Land Fund at that time, is 

affiliated with something called the Palestine Committee?

A. I need a second to review the return.

Q. Sure. 

A. I don't see anything on here to say it is affiliated with 

the Palestine -- 

Q. Committee? 

A. Committee.

Q. Okay. What is the date, by the way, of this application?

A. This application was received by the Internal Revenue 

Service on July 19th, 1989.

Q. Do you know if the Holy Land Foundation was ever granted 

tax exempt status?

A. Actually I did review a document which was the letter 

granting them exempt status, the tax exempt letter.

Q. Before you is what has been marked as HLF Tax No. 11. Do 

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you have that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Again, without reading the contents, what is that 

document?

A. This is the letter 1045, which is the letter granting 

them tax exempt status.

Q. Them being who?

A. It was issued to the Occupied Land Fund on January 8th, 

1990.

Q. Is this form also certified?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence HLF Tax No. 11.

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Ms. Goldberg, what is the date of the 

letter granting them the tax exempt status?

A. January 8th, 1990.

Q. And when did the tax exempt status go into effect?

A. The tax exempt status was actually effective January 

11th, 1989.

Q. Can you explain how the IRS granted tax exempt status a 

year prior to the letter being issued?

A. Certainly. Organizations that submit an application 

within 15 months of formation can actually receive tax exempt 

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status as of the date of formation, so in this case it would 

be January 11th, 1989, so it is kind of a retroactive 

exemption.

Q. You should have also before you what has been marked as 

HLF Tax No. 1 through 9, nine separate folders. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Can you take a quick look at those and confirm 

what they are? 

A. These appear to be the Form 990s beginning in 1992, and 

they are certified copies.

Q. Form 990s for whom?

A. For the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development.

Q. Okay. 

A. And they seem to go all the way to 2000.

Q. Are they all certified?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence HLF Tax No. 1 through HLF Tax No. 9. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I believe No. 1 is what year, Ms. 

Goldberg?

A. No. 1 is the 1992.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: And I believe, Your Honor, No. 1 is 

1992, No. 2 is 1993, so forth, up until 2000. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

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THE COURT: Those are admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Ms. Goldberg, did these copies come from 

the IRS?

A. They are certified copies, so it appears this is a copy 

that came from the Internal Revenue Service, yes, sir.

Q. If you know, why is there no return for 1991, 1990, and 

the prior years?

A. Well, it is my understanding that we requested all the 

different years, and prior to '92 there were no returns 

available. We have something called retention period, when 

after so much time they actually do go in and destroy records.

Q. So it isn't that they didn't file any returns prior to 

'92; it is just that the IRS didn't keep them?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. We talked a moment ago about an EIN number, employer 

identification number. I had you read off of that first form 

from the Occupied Land Fund. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you just connect up that Form 1023, the letter that 

the IRS sent to the HLF granting its tax exempt status, and 

these tax returns, because I think the first two documents 

were addressed to the Occupied Land Fund and these documents, 

these later documents are the Holy Land Foundation tax 

returns. How do you connect the two?

A. As I mentioned, the EIN number, the employer 

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identification number, is a unique number, kind of like the 

social security is unique to us as individuals. So on the 990 

for 1992, it has the same EIN number, 95-4227517, which is the 

Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. So that is 

how you connect them. They are the same EIN number.

Q. When you say it is the same number, it is the same number 

on the application and the letter granting the tax exempt 

status?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Are the Form 990s, HLF Tax No. 1 through HLF Tax 

No. 9 the same in terms of the information called for on the 

form?

A. During these years the forms did not change 

substantially. They are substantially the same.

Q. So let's just pick one and walk through it. Okay. And 

we will take the last one, HLF Tax No. 9, which is 2000 year. 

MR. JONAS: And if we could put the second page on, 

the first page after the certification. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. Can you just walk us through the 

information in the top half of the form, please?

A. Sure. The beginning part talks about the name of the 

organization, their address. Again, their employer 

identification number is on the right in box D. It has a 

telephone number. It talks about in Part I -- The first part 

is basically general information as to what the organization 

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is. 

As you are scrolling down, the Part I talks revenue 

expenses. And that is exactly what that is--the source of 

contributions, whatever income they received, like in this 

case they had some interest and dividends from securities.

Q. Is that unusual for a charity to have interest off 

securities?

A. No, not at all.

Q. Okay. It says in line 1A, "direct public support: $13 

million." What does that mean? What is direct public 

support?

A. That would be contributions they receive from the public.

Q. Donations?

A. Donations, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Now if we can scroll down, is there anywhere on 

here that shows how much money they spent?

A. Well, on line 13 through 17 is the expense section, and 

line 17 is the total expense.

Q. Okay. I notice on line 21 it says "Net assets," and it 

is $5 million. Can you explain that?

A. That is basically the assets, like the property or 

whatever assets they have, their cash in the bank, whatever, 

and that actually comes from the balance sheet.

Q. Let me move up. On line 18, it says excess for the year, 

"Excess of deficit." There is an excess of $3 million. Is it 

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unusual for a charity to take in more money than it gives out?

A. Not at all, because even though it is a non-profit, we 

expect them to make money so they can have money to do their 

exempt purpose. They may be saving the money to build a 

building, they may be using that money for multiple purposes. 

So no, that is not unusual at all, sir.

Q. I want to go back to line 13 program services under the 

expense side. What exactly is that?

A. Program services are the expenses that directly relate to 

the organization accomplishing their exempt purpose.

Q. Okay. It refers to line 44 column B. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is line 44 column B on this page?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And can you explain that? Just break it down for us. 

A. Well, Part II is a statement of functional expenses, and 

what this is, all organizations complete column A, which is 

the total amount of expenses they incurred -- total amount of 

expenses they paid. Program services are those expenses 

directly relating to accomplishing their exempt purpose. The 

management fees, which is column C, is going to be like people 

running the office, the administrative stuff. And fundraising 

would be if they are doing any calling or doing any direct 

mail-outs or anything. But a charity would complete all the 

columns.

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Q. Okay. So program services includes different expenses as 

well as how they distribute their money in furtherance of 

their charitable purposes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Can you tell us if this return is signed?

A. The signature will be on page 6, which I believe is page 

7 of your document because you have the cover sheet. And it 

is signed at the bottom. And yes, sir, it is signed.

Q. Who signs it?

A. Well, the signature is not really legible, but it is -- 

To the right it says Ghassan Elashi, chairman.

Q. Okay. And I just need to go back to the prior return, 

HLF Tax No. 8, and go to page 7 of that one also. 

A. Is that the tax year 1999? 

Q. You tell us. 

A. You did say Exhibit No. 8. Right?

Q. HLF Tax No. 8. 

A. In that case the signature line is going to be on page 9.

Q. Okay. And who does it appear to have signed that one, if 

you can tell?

A. I am sorry. The signature is not really legible.

Q. Okay. And if we can go back one more return, HLF Tax 

No. 7.

A. That would be on page 7.

Q. What year is that for?

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A. And this is for tax year 1998.

Q. Okay. Who signed that one?

A. That one I can read. Actually the signature is not 

clear, but to the right it says Shukri A. Baker, CEO.

Q. Okay. Ms. Goldberg, did you go through the returns and 

total up the amount of donations that the HLF received from 

the returns you have before you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was a tax return filed for 2001?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you look -- were you able to determine how much in 

donations that the HLF received for 2001?

A. Using the bank records, I determined the deposits, which 

is basically I took the deposits that came in and took off 

anything that was not taxable, like transfers, and came up 

with a total for that, yes, sir.

Q. Approximately how much in donations did the HLF receive 

from 1992 through 2001?

A. From my recollection, it was approximately $56 million or 

$57 million.

Q. Did you also try to determine how much was paid out, 

according to the program services line on the returns, from 

1992 through 2000?

A. We did for 1992 through 2000. 2001 the records were not 

available. For those years, from '92 to 2000, it was 

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approximately $36 million.

Q. You say the records weren't available. You just haven't 

looked through them?

A. I didn't have access to the records.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: One moment, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. JONAS: Pass the witness. 

THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Duncan? 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Duncan: 

Q. Good afternoon, Agent Goldberg. 

A. Good afternoon.

Q. Now, you said that although you requested all available 

returns, you did not receive tax returns for the Occupied Land 

Fund in 1989, '90, or '91. Is that correct?

A. That is correct, ma'am.

Q. And you also testified that the IRS has a document 

retention policy that requires the destruction of documents 

after a certain period of time. Is that right?

A. I know we have a retention period, but I don't know what 

the period is or anything.

Q. Okay. But after that period then documents are 

destroyed. Is that correct?

A. It is my understanding that they are destroyed.

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Q. Okay. So the bottom line is that the IRS did not have 

copies of the Holy Land Foundation or Occupied Land Fund 

returns for those years. Is that correct?

A. For the years you mentioned, no, ma'am.

Q. Okay. 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, may I approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. DUNCAN) I am showing you what is marked as 

Defense Exhibits No. 1080, 1081, and 1082. If you could take 

a look at these for me, please. 

A. Okay. These appear to be copies of the '89, '90, and 

1991 Form 990.

Q. And those do not appear to come from the IRS, do they?

A. No, ma'am, because our copy would have our stamp on the 

front.

Q. Okay. And just to clarify, Defense Exhibit No. 1080, can 

you tell me what return for what year that is?

A. This is for tax year 1989 for the Occupied Land Fund.

Q. And Defense Exhibit No. 1081, could you give me the same 

information?

A. Sure. It is the Occupied Land Fund's Form 990 for 1990.

Q. And the same for Defense Exhibit No. 1082?

A. It is the Form 990 for 1991 for the Holy Land Foundation 

for Relief and Development.

Q. Thank you. 

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MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, we move the admission of 

Defendants' Exhibits No. 1080, 1081, and 1082. 

MR. JONAS: No objection.

THE COURT: Those are admitted. 

MS. DUNCAN: Thank you. 

Q. (BY MS. DUNCAN) Now, as a 501(c)(3) tax organization, 

the Holy Land Foundation was required to keep certain 

financial records. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. But they were not required to keep documents that went 

back as far as 1989, were they?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. And in fact the standard for a 501(c)(3) organizations is 

that they are require to keep records for three years. Is 

that correct?

A. In general, yes, but it kind of depends. If they had 

property they bought or sold, or assets they were 

depreciating, they could retain them longer.

Q. Okay. But for information, for example, bank statements, 

they are required to keep those for only three years. Is that 

right?

A. In general, yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. And canceled checks, receipts, also three years?

A. Same.

Q. Okay. Now, you testified--I am not sure if you did--but 

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the IRS never audited the Holy Land Foundation. Is that 

correct?

A. My review of the records indicated we did not do an audit 

for this organization.

Q. But the IRS could have audited them had it chosen to do 

so. Is that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And the Holy Land Foundation would have been required to 

show you those records?

A. Certainly.

Q. To back up the information provided on the Form 990. Is 

that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Now, I would like to ask you about the Holy Land 

Foundation's return for 1992, which is Government Exhibit HLF 

Tax No. 2. 

A. Did you say 1992, ma'am? 

Q. Yes. You know, I think I grabbed the wrong one. I think 

I have the one for 1993. 

A. Because the exhibit Tax No. 2 is 1993.

Q. Okay. We will look at that one. It has the same 

information. I would like to turn to page 7 of this exhibit. 

Actually, you know what? That is the wrong page. Oh, yes, to 

page 7. And can you tell us what this document is?

A. Are you talking about the Schedule A? 

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Q. That is right. 

A. The Schedule A is the organization 501(c)(3) supplemental 

information.

Q. This is a schedule that is attached to the Form 990. Is 

that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And I would like to turn to page 8, and I want to go down 

to line No. 26. And could you tell us, please, what 

information is required in line 26?

A. It says, "For organizations described in lines 10 or 11."

Q. So let's go back up to line 10 or 11. And are either of 

those boxes checked?

A. Yes, ma'am; 11a is checked.

Q. And what is that check? Could you just read what 11a 

says, please?

A. Certainly. "An organization that normally receives a 

substantial part of its support from a governmental unit or 

from the general public. It is a Section 170(b)(1)(A)(vi)."

Q. And now can we go back to line 26, and if you could tell 

me what information is required there, please?

A. You are going to enter two percent of the amount on line 

24, and you are going to attach a list showing the names and 

amount contributed by each person whose total gifts for 1989 

through '92 exceeded the amount in line 26a.

Q. And there is an amount written there. Is that correct?

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A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. If we could now turn to page 14. In the middle of the 

page you see here where it says Part IV, line 26b?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that would correspond with the line you just read. 

Is that right?

A. That is correct, ma'am.

Q. And we see three contributions. Is that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And in the middle we see a contribution under the name 

Mousa Abu Marzook, and then for the total gift, and it says 

here 1989 to 1992. Is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. So a total gift of $210,000. Is that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. And turning back to page 9, and if we could look 

at the entry on line 28, please. Now, this provision requires 

attachment of a schedule showing unusual grants for that same 

period. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. 1989 through 1992?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And if we turn back one more time to page 14, so 

we see the same sort of information. Correct? We see the 

year is 1989, 1990, '91, and '92?

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A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And looking at 1992, the first entry there is Mousa Abu 

Marzook, $210,000, and then one time cash. Is that correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And that is included among other large donations that 

were made during that period. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And I think that you testified on direct that these 

forms, these Form 990s were public. They were public forms?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Now, you discussed the letter that reflected Holy Land 

Foundation's tax exempt status. Is that right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you are aware that Holy Land Foundation maintained 

its tax exempt status until it closed in 2001?

A. That is my understanding, yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, may I approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. DUNCAN) I am showing you what has been marked as 

Defense Exhibit No. 1083. And do you recognize that document?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And could you tell us what it is?

A. This is a letter that is issued by our Cincinnati office. 

It appears somebody contacted -- the Holy Land Foundation for 

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Relief and Development contacted the IRS by telephone on May 

30th and asked for a copy of the determination letter, which 

is the letter we discussed earlier. And what this is, this is 

basically saying our records reflect that -- 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, it is not in evidence yet.

THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, we move the admission of 

Defense Exhibit No. 1083.

MR. JONAS: I would like to see a copy. I wasn't 

notified of these exhibits.

THE COURT: Do you want to let him take a look at 

it, counsel? 

MR. JONAS: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MS. DUNCAN) Okay. Go ahead. Could you tell us what 

is in this letter?

A. Yes. What this is, if somebody loses their exemption 

letter, which was the 1045 letter we looked at earlier, they 

can contact the Service and ask for either a copy of it or 

information. 

This letter was issued to them on May 30th, 2000 that 

says, "In response to your telephone request on May 30th, this 

letter takes the place of the copy of the letter you 

requested." And it basically talks about what code section 

they are exempt under, and that as of May 30th they were still 

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a tax exempt organization.

Q. Thank you. Now, you said that when you were tallying of 

the total contributions for the foundation from I believe 1992 

to 2001, that you did not have complete information for 2001. 

Is that right?

A. The only records that I had was the bank deposits which 

show the income and the transfers.

Q. For 2001?

A. For 2001. For the other years I took the calculation off 

of the Form 990 itself.

Q. Okay. So for the years 1992 to 2000 you had information 

regarding both the income and the expenditures for those 

years--the program expenses. Is that correct?

A. Well, the only thing I had was the 909s themselves. I 

didn't have any actual records.

Q. I am sorry. I am not being clear. But the numbers that 

you told us about, the totals that you came up with, those 

were calculated using the Form 990. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. For those years. But then for 2001, you added income 

based on your review of the bank records?

A. That is correct.

Q. Right? But you didn't have information regarding the 

program expenses for 2001. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

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Q. Okay. But that doesn't mean that there weren't 

expenditures in 2001. You just didn't have the records. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And did you calculate what the total income was just for 

the period of -- for just the period 1992 to 2000, the years 

that you also had program service expenses?

A. Again, using the 990 I added those up. I didn't bring my 

notes with me, so I couldn't tell you how much they were 

without the last year.

Q. Okay. So when you testified about the income from 1992 

through 2001 using the Form 990, and then also bank records, 

and then also testified about the program service expenses for 

1992 to 2000, the time periods of those two numbers don't 

match. Is that right?

A. That is correct, because we didn't look at program 

expenses for 2001.

Q. Thank you. 

MS. DUNCAN: No more questions, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Mr. Cline? 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Cline: 

Q. Good afternoon. 

A. Good afternoon, sir.

Q. I have just a few questions for you.

You testified a few moments ago about two sets of minutes 

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from February of 1991. Do you recall that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the first time you saw those two documents?

A. In preparing to testify, those documents were provided to 

me.

Q. And how long ago was that?

A. I don't recall exactly.

Q. A day or two?

A. No, it was a few weeks. To be honest with you, I think 

it is a couple of months ago. I am not exactly sure of the 

date.

Q. Within the last few months was the first time you saw 

those documents?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I take it you never encountered those documents as part 

of an IRS audit, or anything like that?

A. No, sir. We have nod conducted an audit of this 

organization, to my knowledge.

Q. So to your knowledge, no one from the IRS ever relied on 

these documents as part of an IRS audit. Correct?

A. I can't testify to that because I don't know who else had 

access to them.

Q. Well, you know that there was no IRS audit conducted of 

the Holy Land Foundation. Right?

A. That is correct.

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Q. And if there was no audit conducted, then there was no 

one from the IRS relying on documents in conducting an audit. 

Right?

A. Okay.

Q. Are you with me on that?

A. I am following, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Good. I take it that you have no personal 

knowledge of the meeting or meetings reflected in those two 

sets of minutes. Correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Did you notice that the date on one was February 16 

through 18, 1991, and the date on the other was February 17, 

1991?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I take it, ma'am, that you have no personal knowledge 

whether those minutes reflect the same meeting or two 

different meetings. Correct?

A. That is correct.

MR. CLINE: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall, any questions?

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I have no questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Dratel? 

MR. DRATEL: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ms. Cadeddu? 

MS. CADEDDU: No, Your Honor.

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THE COURT: Mr. Jonas, any redirect? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

By Mr. Jonas: 

Q. Ms. Goldberg, with regard to the tax returns that Ms. 

Duncan showed you of I guess it is '89, '90, '91 tax returns, 

do you know where they came from?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know if they were filed with the IRS?

A. No, sir.

Q. You don't know either way. 

A. Well, we know something was filed. I don't know if those 

were the returns that were filed.

Q. Okay. With regard to the letter she showed you for the 

year 2000, Defendants' Exhibit No. 1083, is that the letter 

you are holding in your hand right now?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Do you know, as part of your work with the Exempt 

Organizations Section, does the FBI ever notify your section 

when an intelligence investigation is being conducted of a 

charity?

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. Does the FBI ever call up your office and say, "Hey, we 

are conducting an investigation, an intelligence 

investigation, not a criminal investigation, of a charity"?

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A. Because it is a public charity, the Form 990s are public, 

so is the application, so if somebody who worked for the FBI, 

they could call up and ask for a copy.

Q. You misunderstand me. I am not asking you for any 

information. I am not saying the FBI is asking you for copies 

of any documents. I am just saying, does the FBI, when they 

conduct an intelligence investigation of a charity, do you 

know if they call your office and say, "Hey, we are conducting 

an intelligence investigation"?

A. To my knowledge, that is not something they would do, but 

that is not something I would deal with.

Q. Okay. 

A. Sorry.

Q. I want to go to the 1992 tax return. I believe it is HLF 

Tax No. 2. Or the 1993 return. I am sorry. Whichever return 

that Ms. Duncan was questioning you about when she showed you 

those donations from Marzook. Do you have that before you?

A. Yeah. I believe that was Exhibit No. 2, 1993.

Q. Okay. And for the record, HLF Tax No. 2. Okay. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I would like to show you -- 

MR. JONAS: If I may approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) A document that is already in evidence 

that has been marked as Marzook Tax No. 1. Now, Ms. Goldberg, 

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with regard to -- Just staying for a moment with the HLF tax 

return. Okay? With regard to that $210,000 contribution by 

Marzook, as reflected on the return -- And you recall she 

questioned you about that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Should the HLF have given Marzook a receipt for that 

money?

A. An individual is required to have a receipt. The 

organization is not required to give one, but the organization 

usually does because they want to have people continue to 

give.

Q. Would you expect the organization to give an accurate 

receipt?

A. Of course.

Q. What would you have expected the HLF receipt to be in 

this case?

MR. CLINE: We are in the realm of speculation. 

MR. JONAS: Let me rephrase the question, Your 

Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Based upon your experience as an IRS 

agent for 20 something years, including your experience 

working for the Exempt Org Section. Okay? And what you have 

seen in conducting your work, what would a charity -- what 

would the amount of the receipt be for the charity to give in 

this situation for a $210,000 donation?

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A. Well, they should give a receipt for $210,000 for that 

one time cash donation.

MR. JONAS: If we can put page 11 on the screen, 

please, of Marzook tax return No. 1. Enlarge the top half, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) If you go to page 11, Ms. Goldberg. I 

tabbed it to make it easier for you. 

How much did Marzook report as this donation to the Holy 

Land Foundation? 

A. Well, if it is Holy Land Fund, it is $25,000.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 13. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see the receipt on the bottom 

half?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much is the receipt for the Holy Land Foundation for 

the donation by Mousa Abu Marzook in 1992?

A. $25,000.

Q. Does that match up with what is reported on the HLF tax 

return for the amount of the donation for the same year?

A. No, sir.

MR. JONAS: No further questions. 

THE COURT: Ms. Duncan? 

MS. DUNCAN: May I have a moment, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Sure. 

MS. DUNCAN: I just have a few questions, Your 

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Honor. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Duncan: 

Q. Agent Goldberg, the receipt that Mr. Jonas just showed 

you, was it signed?

A. No, it was not signed.

Q. Thank you. 

MS. DUNCAN: No further questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Cline? 

MR. CLINE: Nothing further.

THE COURT: You may step down. 

Next witness? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, the United States calls 

Steve McGonigle. 

(Whereupon, the oath was administered by the Clerk.)

STEVE McGONIGLE,

Testified on direct examination by Mr. Jonas as follows:

Q. Sir, can you state and spell your name for the record, 

please? 

A. Steve McGonigle, S-T-E-V-E M-C-G-O-N-I-G-L-E.

Q. Mr. McGonigle what do you do for a living?

A. I am a reporter with the Dallas Morning News.

Q. How long have you been with the Dallas Morning News?

A. Twenty-seven years.

Q. Do you have a particular beat?

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A. No. I am assigned to our projects desk, but I am what is 

called a general assignments reporter.

Q. Okay. Have you always been a general assignments 

reporter?

A. No, I have had various reporting jobs. This is just my 

latest.

Q. I want to turn your attention to 1999. 

A. Okay.

Q. Were you with the Dallas Morning News then?

A. I was.

Q. What was your assignments back then?

A. I was a general assignments reporter.

Q. Did you ever travel to the Middle East during that year?

A. I did.

Q. Where?

A. I traveled to Israel, and from Israel into Gaza, and also 

into the West Bank.

Q. What was the purpose of your trip?

A. It was to work on a story about Holy Land Foundation and 

its works and its potential ties to Hamas.

Q. Do you remember specifically in 1999 when you went?

A. It was the first week of December.

Q. What was -- When you first got there, where did you land?

A. I landed at the airport in Tel Aviv, Israel.

Q. Did you spend time in Israel first?

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A. I did. I went from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem; stayed in 

Jerusalem for approximately a day.

Q. Where did you go from Jerusalem?

A. From there to Gaza, drove to Gaza.

Q. How did you get into Gaza?

A. Drove myself to the border checkpoint at Erez, which is 

on the Israeli side, left my car, and walked across the border 

crossing into Gaza.

Q. Did someone meet you on the other side in Gaza?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was that?

A. A Palestinian journalist named Taher Shriteh.

Q. Had you known Taher Shriteh before that day when you met 

him?

A. I had not met him, but I had spoken with him and 

exchanged messages with him.

Q. Can you try to spell his last name, please?

A. S-H-R-I-T-E-H.

Q. Thank you. 

If you had not met him, how did you come to become in 

contact with him.

A. He was recommended to me by other journalists in Israel 

as someone who was very well acquainted with Gaza and people 

in it.

Q. What was the purpose of hooking up with him?

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A. He would act as my interpreter and my guide.

Q. Is there a term used by reporters for someone like that?

A. A fixer.

Q. When you got there in Gaza and he met you in the Gaza 

side of the crossing, what did you do with him?

A. We went from the border crossing to the home of 

Dr. Mahmoud Al-Zahar.

Q. Why did you go to Doctor Zahar's home?

A. Doctor Zahar was one of the co-founders of Hamas, was 

someone who frequently spoke with reporters on behalf of 

Hamas, and had agreed to speak with me.

Q. Okay. I am going to hold up what has been marked as 

Demonstrative No. 17. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, if I can just take a moment 

to clean away some of those. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see on the screen -- This is an 

enlargement, like a lineup. Do you see Doctor Zahar you met 

in 1999?

A. It is a really dark picture, but that is him to the far 

right.

Q. Do you want to hold this enlargement up?

A. Yes. That is Doctor Zahar to the far right, 

approximately where you have your left hand.

Q. That is the top row, the orange section?

A. Correct.

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Q. Who arranged the interview with Doctor Zahar?

A. Taher did, my guide.

Q. What did you talk about with Doctor Zahar?

A. We talked about Hamas, the charitable works of Hamas, and 

I also talked to him about what he knew or what he was willing 

to talk to me about regarding Holy Land Foundation.

Q. What did he say about the Holy Land Foundation?

A. He was aware of their existence, but he claimed not to 

know very much about their work or about them.

Q. Did he say if he met any of the -- Withdrawn. What did 

he say his knowledge of their existence was? Did he give you 

any details?

A. What I recall is he was aware that they operated within 

the territories within Gaza, and he had -- he mentioned to me 

that he had once met Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Did he say anything else about the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Not really, other than he contended that there was no 

connection between the Foundation and Hamas.

Q. Did he tell you what his meeting with Shukri Abu Baker 

was about?

A. He said he had met Mr. Baker at a function in California. 

I believe it was a banquet or a dinner. He portrayed it as a 

very casual meeting and conversation where Mr. Baker asked him 

a medical question about a member of Mr. Baker's family. 

Doctor Zahar was a doctor.

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Q. I forgot to ask you, is this meeting with him in English 

or in Arabic?

A. In English. He spoke very good English.

Q. I am going to put up an enlargement of what has been 

admitted as HLF Search No. 87. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you have that before you?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Taking a look at this document, which is entitled 

"overseas speakers," do you see Doctor Zahar's name anywhere? 

It is alphabetical by first name, if that helps. 

A. Yes, I see it.

Q. Okay. Did Doctor Zahar tell you that he was an overseas 

speaker for the HLF?

A. He did not.

MR. JONAS: If we can show Mushtaha Search No. 1, 

the last clip, please. One moment, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) While that is coming up, how long did the 

interview last?

A. I would say the better part of an hour, 45 minutes maybe.

Q. Could you describe the atmosphere of the meeting?

A. Very casual. We were at his home. We were in kind of a 

living room/dining room kind of area in his home, and it was 

very casual. We sat and drank tea and talked quite amicably 

for 45 minutes or so.

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(Whereupon, Mushtaha Search No. 1 was played in open 

court.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Mr. McGonicle, did Mahmoud Zahar tell you 

that he attended this festival where he was thanked by Shukri 

Abu Baker?

A. That wasn't the way he described the way he met 

Mr. Baker, no.

Q. Okay. Thank you. After you met with Mahmoud Zahar, 

where did you go?

A. We went to a hotel in Gaza where we were staying and had 

lunch.

Q. Okay. From there?

A. Pardon? 

Q. And after lunch?

A. After that we went to the home of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, 

the spiritual leader of Hamas.

Q. Why did you go see Sheikh Yassin?

A. He, too, was one of the co-founders of Hamas, was someone 

who did on occasion speak about Hamas and its works, and I 

wanted to speak with him about what he knew about Holy Land 

Foundation.

Q. Who arranged this interview?

A. Taher Shriteh did.

Q. Where did this interview take place?

A. At a home in Gaza that I believe to be Sheikh Yassin's 

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home that was distance-wise maybe a mile or so from Doctor 

Zahar's home.

Q. Could you -- How did you get there?

A. Taher drove his car.

Q. When you got there, who was there?

A. Aside from the people who were with me, which was my 

translator and a photographer, Sheikh Yassin was there and 

probably two or three other people in the home that I saw who 

I presumed to be the Sheikh's bodyguards or assistants.

Q. Could you describe the atmosphere during this interview?

A. I would describe it as a much more formal, even tense 

atmosphere than at Doctor Zahar's home. There was not a lot 

of casual banter between us. It was strictly business, and I 

had been told it was going to be a relatively brief exchange. 

So we kind of got down to business right away.

Q. Was the interview in English or in Arabic?

A. He spoke Arabic and Taher translated to me in English.

Q. How did you greet him when he came into the room?

A. Sheikh Yassin was a paraplegic and was in a wheelchair, 

and I had been told ahead of time that the appropriate way to 

greet him was to walk up to him and touch him on the back of 

one of his hands. And I believe I said as-salamu alaykum, 

which is Arabic for peace be with you.

Q. Did you talk to him about the Holy Land Foundation?

A. I attempted to, yes.

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Q. What did he say?

A. He pretended to know next to nothing about it.

Q. Did he say anything at all about it or did you describe 

to him what Holy Land Foundation was? Can you tell us a 

little bit more about the conversation?

A. I did. I asked him if he was aware of the Foundation. 

He indicated to me that he was not aware of it. I asked him a 

few more questions as a follow-up to that about whether or not 

the Foundation was involved in the works of Hamas, whether he 

knew people in the Holy Land Foundation, and he indicated to 

all those questions that he didn't know what I was talking 

about.

Q. Did he make a joke with you?

A. He did make a slight joke to me when I asked him about 

whether Holy Land and Hamas were connected. He said -- When I 

told him they were a charitable organization, he said that is 

perhaps they could give him money for the school he was 

building, and he joked about that. He treated it as though 

that was a joke.

Q. Do you know if in fact Hamas builds schools?

A. They do.

Q. Okay. How long did the interview with Sheikh Yassin 

last?

A. It was a shorter interview than with Doctor Zahar. I 

would say about 30 minutes.

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Q. What did you do after you meet with Sheikh Yassin?

A. From there it was getting on towards dusk, and we drove 

to the Holy Land Foundation's office in Gaza, a short 

distance.

Q. Was this a prearranged interview?

A. It was not.

Q. What was the purpose of going to the Holy Land 

Foundation's office in Gaza?

A. To speak with whoever worked there about the works of the 

organization in Gaza.

Q. Why didn't you arrange this interview in advance?

A. Because I thought it would be more spontaneous if I 

simply appeared and asked if they would speak with me.

Q. When you got there what happened?

A. I was greeted by the office manager, a man by the name of 

Mohammad Moharram. He was very friendly. We sat and talked 

for a while about the Foundation and its works. And shortly 

thereafter, I would say within 30 minutes, perhaps longer, the 

chairman of the Holy Land Foundation's board in Gaza Dr. Asad 

Abu Sharkh appeared and we carried on the conversation.

Q. Generally what did you talk about?

A. The works of the Foundation in Gaza, the kind of work 

that they did, the kind of people that they helped. And of 

course we talked about affiliations with Hamas, which they 

denied.

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Q. Did you tell them who you were?

A. Sure. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you tell them the purpose of your visit?

A. Yes. I told them I was there to work on a story about 

the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. How did the meeting end?

A. Very politely, very amicably. We had discussed the 

possibility of me talking with some of their clientele at some 

future date, and we parted company with kind of an 

understanding that we would get back in touch.

Q. That you would get back in touch with him?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you?

A. Yes.

Q. Explain that. 

A. Well, that evening Doctor Abu Sharkh came to my hotel and 

we talked some more that evening, and then the next day I came 

back to their office and they arranged for me to be taken to 

where some of their clients lived.

Q. What was the atmosphere like the next day? You said the 

first day when you met with them the night before was 

friendly. Was it still friendly when you went back the next 

day?

A. Not as friendly. Clearly they had spoken with folks back 

in Texas, and I would say they were more formal than they had 

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been the day before.

Q. Okay. 

A. Not unfriendly, but more formal.

Q. You said you asked to see some clients. What do you mean 

by clients?

A. Well, the Foundation, of course, said that they assisted 

the poor and the sick and people in need in Gaza, and so I 

asked to meet with the people that they helped.

Q. And did you?

A. I did.

Q. Who took you to meet people they helped?

A. Mr. Moharram arranged for another member of his staff to 

show us--myself, Taher, and my photographer--where the clients 

lived. And Taher drove -- We drove in separate cars, but he 

led us to the homes where the clients lived.

Q. Did you ask to meet with a certain type of people, or did 

they just choose who you were going to meet with?

A. The latter. I did not specify what kind of people. I 

just asked if I could meet with clients.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would like to 

play an intercepted conversation that is already in evidence. 

I am going to play for the record the entirety of the call. I 

may interrupt a few times to ask Mr. McGonigle questions.

THE COURT: Do you want for the record to identify 

the exhibit? 

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MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. It is Baker wiretap 34-A is 

the audio that will be played.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Before we start, this is a call that 

involves an individual named Haitham Maghawri. Do you know 

who that is, Mr. McGonigle?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Who is that?

A. He was the executive director of the Holy Land 

Foundation.

Q. Okay. And it also involves Shukri Abu Baker. Do you 

know who that is?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

A. Mr. Baker is one of the co-founders of the Foundation, 

and was the executive director, as well as its president.

Q. And then Mohammad Abu Moharram, that is the individual 

you met with in Gaza?

A. Yes. My understanding is he was the office manager of 

the Gaza office of the Holy Land Foundation. 

MR. JONAS: Please play the call.

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap No. 34-A was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) You see the next line under the yellow, 

it says, "His name is Steven McGonigle." Would that be you?

A. Yes.

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Q. Do you see where Haitham says, "Right now he is in the 

middle of the meeting with Doctor Asad Abu Sharkh"?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the individual you mentioned a moment ago that 

you referenced you had dinner with?

A. Yes. 

Q. While it is paused, do you see where it says -- Shukri 

Baker says, "Tell them don't take him to any family to any 

martyr's family"?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know if you went to a martyr's family or not? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. Do you see Haitham Maghawri says, "Do you know Taher 

Shriteh?"

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the person you referred to as your fixer?

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you tell anybody when you were in Gaza that you were 

Shukri's friend?

A. No, I did not. 

Q. Mr. McGonigle, do you see where it says, "based on his 

conversation with Doctor Asad," referring to Taher Shriteh 

bringing you over, did you know if Taher Shriteh contacted the 

Holy Land Foundation in advance of you guys going over to the 

office?

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A. No, I was not aware of that.

Q. Was that something you would have wanted him to do?

A. No, it wouldn't have been.

Q. Do you see where it says, "He talked to him at noon today 

and made an appointment"? Were you aware if there was an 

appointment made for you to go to the Gaza office?

A. No.

Q. It says -- Shukri Baker says, "This journalist is a 

Zionist." Are you a Zionist?

A. No, sir.

Q. When you spoke with Moharram, did he tell you the Holy 

Land Foundation sponsored Christians?

A. I don't specifically remember that he told me that, but 

certainly I had been told that by people associated with the 

Foundation.

Q. How about that they sponsored Jews?

A. Yes, I had heard that as well, although I can't say 

specifically that Mr. Moharram said it. I just don't recall.

Q. Mr. McGonigle, are you in cooperation with the Jewish 

lobby?

A. No, sir.

Q. Mr. McGonigle, do you know if your meeting with Abu 

Moharram was recorded?

A. Initially my recollection is no, when we first met there 

was no recording. The recording device did not appear until 

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the next day.

Q. Did you record the conversation?

A. I did not.

Q. Either one either day?

A. No.

Q. Did you allow them to record the conversation?

A. Yes, they told me they had a rather large, almost like a 

boom box, that they were going to use to record, and they told 

me they were going to record and I said that was fine.

Q. Did they give you a copy of the recording?

A. No, sir. And I didn't ask for one either.

Q. Mr. McGonigle, do you see where Haitham Maghawri says, 

"It is important to keep away, keep away from the families 

that Shukri talked about?" Were you aware in the second day 

when they took you around if they were keeping you away from 

certain families?

A. No, I wouldn't say that I was aware of it, but I knew 

that they were choosing whomever they wanted me to see.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am going to play another 

call. 

THE COURT: Let's take a 15-minute break until about 

five till, and then we will take another break since we are 

working later. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: All right. We will be in recess.

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(Brief Recess.) 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, can we just do a quick 

sidebar? 

THE COURT: Yes, come on up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.) 

MR. JONAS: While we are waiting, the CIA is trying 

to secure a fax of that index that you wanted. I understand 

there is problems with the fax machine on their end, and they 

are trying to work with the U.S. Attorney's Office to work it 

out. So as soon as it is here, it will be brought up to us 

and I will give it to you at the break. 

THE COURT: Even if it is in the morning, that is 

okay.

MS. CADEDDU: There is always email.

MR. JONAS: You would think it is easy, wouldn't 

you, but when it comes to secure email, no.

MS. HOLLANDER: Can I ask a real quick funding 

thing? 

(discussion off the record.)

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Mr. McGonigle, I am going to play another 

call for you. It is in evidence as Baker Wiretap No. 38. The 

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call we just played before the break was December 2nd, 1999. 

This call is December 3rd, 1999. Does that correlate to the 

time period that you were in this area in Gaza?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we could play Baker Wiretap No. 38-A, 

the audio. 

Before we start it, for the record the participants are 

Shukri Baker, Ghassan Elashi, Haitham Maghawri, and Mohammad 

Abu Moharram. They are the same participants from the 

previous calls, except we also have Ghassan Elashi.

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap No. 38-A was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Mr. McGonigle were you surrounded so 

tightly?

A. I am not sure exactly what that means. I certainly 

didn't feel like I was surrounded tightly.

Q. Do you see where it says, "Taher is very intelligent. He 

went in advance to Sheikh Ahmed and told him," and it goes on? 

Do you know if Taher Shriteh went to see Sheikh Yassin in 

advance of your interview with Sheikh Yassin to inform him of 

the interview?

A. I did not know that, no.

Q. Do you know if he told Sheikh Yassin that you were 

targeting the Foundation?

A. No, I wouldn't know that.

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Q. All right. Do you see where it says, "Sheikh Yassin 

played a little dumb"?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell if Sheikh Yassin was playing dumb when you 

were questioning him about the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Sheikh Yassin is a very intelligent, highly political 

individual, and I didn't expect him to share everything he 

knew with me, so I was certainly skeptical of what he said, 

but I didn't know him well enough to know precisely whether he 

was playing dumb. 

Q. Where it says with them quoting Sheikh Yassin saying, 

"What is the Holy Land Foundation? I don't know anything 

about it," and goes on into the dark area about building a 

school, is that consistent with what Sheikh Yassin did say to 

you?

A. Yes, it is consistent.

Q. Do you see they are referring to a report?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know anything about a report being written 

regarding your visit?

A. No, I do not.

Q. Was there a side conversation while Taher Shriteh was 

talking to someone else that Abu Moharram is now referring to? 

A. I am sorry. Could you repeat that? 

Q. Sure. Mohammad Abu Moharram is saying that he had a side 

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conversation with you while Taher Shriteh was having another 

conversation.

A. Yes, that is true.

Q. That is true?

A. That is true.

Q. During that side conversation did you say, "Again, I know 

the Holy Land Foundation and Shukri is my friend"?

A. I did not say Shukri is my friend. I did say I knew the 

Holy Land Foundation, I did say I knew people associated with 

it, I did say I knew Shukri. I did not say he was my friend.

Q. Okay. Do you see where it says, "His newspaper"--I guess 

it means your newspaper--"was about to summon him"?

A. Yes, I see it.

Q. Were you about to be summoned by the Dallas Morning News?

A. I am not sure exactly what summoned means, but to my 

knowledge I was not being summoned by my newspaper, no.

Q. Okay. Mr. McGonigle, do you see where they talk about 

you visiting a hospital?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you visit a hospital?

A. No, I asked but they declined.

Q. Did you visit the outside of a hospital?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Okay. Do you see where Mohammad Abu Moharram was saying 

you were caught in a trap?

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A. Yes.

Q. When you were there, did you feel like you were caught in 

a trap?

A. No, I didn't feel like I was caught in a trap.

Q. Do you see where Shukri Baker asks if you visited anyone 

in the Authority?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you visit anyone from the Palestinian Authority on 

this trip?

A. Not in Gaza, no.

Q. Was your initial contact with Taher Shriteh through 

email?

A. It could well have been.

Q. Okay. Do you see where it says in the dark part and 

continues "Taher Shriteh went to Sheikh Yassin and told him 

such and such and so and so is coming and targeting the Holy 

Land," meaning he is targeting it? Were you aware if Taher 

Shriteh went to Sheikh Yassin before your meeting and told him 

you were targeting the Holy Land Foundation?

A. No, I was not aware of that.

Q. After the second day where you went back and was given 

the tour of some of the clients, did you have anymore meetings 

with anyone from the Holy Land Foundation in Gaza?

A. No.

Q. Okay. 

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MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I will pass the witness. 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall? 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Westfall: 

Q. Hello, Mr. McGonigle.

A. Hello, Mr. Westfall.

Q. I am Greg Westfall. You don't have to call me mister. 

It sounded like listening to the conversation that Shukri and 

Haitham and the folks at the Holy Land Foundation were 

genuinely surprised that you were there. 

A. Yes. I took it that way as well.

Q. Certainly you didn't consult with them before you went. 

A. No, I did not.

Q. And it sounds like two weeks prior, I mean, if we take 

Taher at his word, you started emailing with Taher to set this 

up. 

A. I couldn't tell you precisely how many weeks it was, but 

it was in advance. I work several weeks in advance of my trip 

to set things up with him, yes.

Q. Right. And Taher, was there mention in there that he is 

on the TV, that he is a journalist also?

A. Yes. He described himself as a Palestinian journalist. 

He had a small news office in Gaza City very close to where 

Sheikh Yassin lived.

Q. Right. And I guess this is common to have somebody like 

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Taher who kind of smoothes the path for you to be able to 

visit folks?

A. It is.

Q. Now, Doctor Zahar is a medical doctor?

A. Yes.

Q. Where does he work?

A. To my knowledge, he worked at he clinics in the area, 

hospitals in the area. I don't know that their set-up as 

completely comparable to ours in terms of being affiliated 

with any one medical institution, but he is a very well-known 

physician and works in a number of places, or worked at that 

time.

Q. And of course let me show you, this is one of the 

exhibits in evidence. It is a demonstrative exhibit called 

Government's Demonstrative No. 17. And this is Mahmoud Zahar 

right there?

A. Correct.

Q. Do you see -- And this is Sheikh Yassin. Right?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is this the man that you went to visit?

A. It is.

Q. And you see how he is like the number one person in the 

Hamas chain here?

A. Yes.

Q. And then Mahmoud Zahar, if we assume that this is above 

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these two, he is kind of like on the second and a half level 

or the third level?

A. Yes.

Q. But he is a high ranking Hamas guy?

A. He was.

Q. And you spent an hour in his house having tea with him. 

A. Correct.

Q. And then you went and paid a personal visit to Sheikh 

Yassin in his house?

A. Correct.

Q. And did this via setting it up email with a guy named 

Taher?

A. Correct.

Q. Whom you had never met?

A. Correct.

Q. And you don't have -- Well, thank you. I am not even 

going to ask. Mc, is what Irish or Scottish?

A. Depending on who you ask, yes, Irish.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, pass the witness. 

THE COURT: Ms. Hollander, any questions? 

Ms. Moreno? 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Moreno: 

Q. Good afternoon. 

A. Hello, Ms. Moreno.

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Q. Good afternoon, sir. How are you?

A. I am fine, thank you.

Q. Good. I want to talk to you about two different areas, 

and I am going to start with these phone conversations that we 

have been hearing, the two phone conversations. 

It is fair to say that in those phone conversations you 

were described in unflattering terms. Would you agree with 

me? 

A. Perhaps not ones I would have preferred, yes.

Q. All right. These people did not trust you. Is that 

fair?

A. I think there were some trust issues.

Q. There were some trust issues. Okay. Let's talk about 

those trust issues. It is true, is it not, that -- Let's see 

now. This took place in December of 1999. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And I believe the first story that you wrote about the 

Holy Land Foundation was in April of 1996. Would that be 

correct?

A. That is when it was published. Correct.

Q. And in fact, from April of 1996 until December of 1999 

you were really sort of the point person writing stories about 

the Holy Land Foundation for the Dallas Morning News. Is that 

fair?

A. Yes. I would say that I wrote the majority of the 

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stories about the Foundation that were written during that 

time, yes.

Q. Okay. And those stories, do you have an idea of how many 

stories you wrote during that three-year period of time?

A. It would be strictly a guess, but I would say it was 

somewhere around 10, maybe less.

Q. Okay. But no one else at the Dallas Morning News was 

really writing these stories about the Holy Land Foundation. 

A. There were a few of my colleagues that wrote I would say 

smaller scale stories, but in terms of larger scale stories I 

was the primary writer of those.

Q. And these stories, let's talk about the very first story 

that you wrote. Do you recall the headline of the first story 

that you wrote about the Holy Land Foundation?

A. No, I am sorry, I don't.

Q. Does this sound correct--"Paper trail leads to Hamas"? 

A. It sounds correct, yes.

Q. Okay. And in fact, the headlines for the subsequent 

stories, and I am really talking about this discreet period of 

time up until December of 1999, the stories were viewed by 

certainly the Muslim community of being unfair and inaccurate. 

Would you agree with me?

A. Certainly some members of the community who were 

sympathetic towards Holy Land Foundation felt that they were 

unfair, yes, ma'am.

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Q. Okay. And they felt that they were inaccurate as well. 

Correct?

A. Yes, I think that is a fair statement. Again, it was a 

portion of the community which was sympathetic towards HLF. 

But yes, I think it is fair to say that they thought the 

stories were unfair.

Q. And, in fact, those members of the community or 

supporters of the work that the Holy Land Foundation was 

doing, they wrote letters to the editor of your newspaper, did 

they not?

A. I am sure they did, yes.

Q. And those letters to the editor of the newspaper were 

highly critical of your reporting. Is that fair?

A. I don't know if I would say highly critical. They were 

certainly critical.

Q. They weren't supportive of the reporting. 

A. That is fair to say, yes.

Q. And they also wrote letters to the president of the 

Dallas Morning News. Correct?

A. That I do not -- I am just not aware of that.

Q. Okay. You saw personally supporters of the Holy Land 

Foundation protesting in front of the very building that you 

worked out of. Correct?

A. Many times.

Q. Okay. And in fact, they were picketing in front of the 

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Dallas Morning News office. 

A. Yes, ma'am, they were.

Q. And they had signs. Correct?

A. Yes, ma'am, they did.

Q. In fact, do you recall ever seeing my client Mr. Elashi 

with signs in front of your building?

A. I certainly recall Mr. Elashi in front of the building. 

Whether he was holding a sign, I don't recall that, but I 

certainly recall seeing him in front of the building, yes, 

ma'am.

Q. And would that have been in the context of protesting the 

kind of reporting that we are discussing right now?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. And you say you don't have any personal knowledge 

whether the principals of the Holy Land Foundation actually 

sought redress from your editorial board?

A. You asked me about a letter. I don't know anything about 

a letter. In terms of meeting with people in our editorial 

operation, I am aware there were meetings.

Q. Okay. And the meetings -- Are you aware that the 

meetings were with the principals of the Holy Land Foundation 

and the editorial board?

A. I believe -- I know that Mr. Elashi and Mr. Abu Baker 

were there, and I know that -- I can recall at least one 

member of our editorial operation, not our editorial board, 

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but our president and general manager at that time.

Q. And these meetings with the editorial board were really 

there, is it fair to say, to complain about what they 

perceived as unfair and inaccurate reporting by yourself, sir?

A. Of course I wasn't there, so I don't know precisely what 

was said. Given the context of the events, I didn't think it 

was to write me a Christmas card.

Q. You weren't getting any emails that the Holy Land 

Foundation was commending your work as a reporter. 

A. No, ma'am, I was not.

Q. Now, these conversations, then, that took place that we 

heard, were three years into the kind of reporting that was 

perceived as highly critical, as highly unfair, and inaccurate 

of the Holy Land Foundation. 

A. I am sorry. I missed that. Are you talking about 1999 

now? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Yes, it was approximately three years, three and a half 

years after the first article had been published.

Q. And I am trying to give the context to the jury. So the 

first article which title was "Paper trail leads to Hamas" was 

about the Holy Land Foundation. Right?

A. Yes, ma'am, it was.

Q. And subsequently, the ten articles or so that you 

published were critical of the Holy Land Foundation up to 

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December of '99. Correct?

A. Well, I don't know if the word critical would be the word 

I would use, but there were certainly stories about the Holy 

Land Foundation, yes, ma'am.

Q. They weren't supportive about the humanitarian relief 

work being done by the Holy Land Foundation. Right?

A. Again, when you say supportive, I am not sure precisely 

what you mean. They were stories about the Foundation and any 

kind of controversy surrounding the Foundation.

Q. And the controversy, according to you and your paper, was 

some sort of link between the Holy Land Foundation and Hamas, 

the terrorist organization?

A. That is what we were told, yes, ma'am.

Q. That is the angle of the reporting that came out of the 

Dallas Morning News with respect to the Holy Land Foundation. 

A. I am sorry. Could you repeat that for me? 

Q. That was the angle. The angle that the stories took from 

your pen were critical of the Holy Land Foundation because of 

what you claimed was a link between Holy Land and Hamas. 

A. Again, what I would say is the reporting was based on 

what we found to be criticisms of the Foundation and 

assertions, allegations against the Foundation that it was in 

fact connected with Hamas, yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. Now, when you went to Israel, Gaza, and the West 

Bank in December of 1999, you were there to do research on 

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this next story. Correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And I think you spent a couple of weeks in the area, all 

told?

A. Probably just a little bit less than that, yes.

Q. And in doing your research -- Let me just get a few 

things clear. You said that you in Gaza did not speak to 

anyone from the Palestinian Authority. Is that right?

A. I believe that is correct, yes.

Q. And in the other areas that you went to in doing any 

research, did you get to talk to anybody from the Palestinian 

Authority, meaning from the West Bank, or in Israel?

A. I am straining to recollect here, but my recollection is 

that I talked to a very, very low level official in the 

Palestinian Authority in Ramallah in connection with the Holy 

Land Foundation's office in Ramallah.

Q. Okay. Let's talk about Ramallah for a minute. You 

actually visited a zakat committee in Ramallah. Correct?

A. Yes, ma'am, I did.

Q. And, in fact, the zakat committee you visited was the 

Ramallah zakat committee. 

A. That is my recollection, yes.

Q. And when you visited the Ramallah zakat committee, you 

did not see in the offices of the zakat committee anything of 

a political nature. Correct?

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A. Well, let's put it this way. I don't speak or read 

Arabic, and there was nothing that caught my attention as 

being anything overtly political. But given that I don't 

speak or read Arabic, there could have been things, but I 

certainly did not recognize them as such.

Q. When you went to the Ramallah zakat committee, did you 

have a translator with you?

A. I did.

Q. Okay. And did you ask the translator to translate what 

you saw on the walls?

A. I am sorry. I don't recall. I just don't recall.

Q. And when you went to the Ramallah zakat committee, who 

did you talk to there?

A. I couldn't tell you the man's name. He was an office 

worker of some kind. He could well have been the office 

manager. I don't recall his name and I don't recall his 

title.

Q. Okay. And did you put anything that you learned from the 

Ramallah zakat committee into your story?

A. I am sorry. I don't recall that either. It is possible 

I did not.

Q. Okay. But your story was about a link between the Holy 

Land Foundation and Hamas. Right?

A. It was examining purported links, yes, ma'am.

Q. And you didn't put anything in that story examining that 

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link about the Ramallah zakat committee that you personally 

visited. Correct?

A. Again, I don't recall. I don't believe I did. I just 

don't recall.

Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about your meeting at the Holy 

Land Foundation Gaza office, if I may. You met with the 

gentleman who has been identified as Mohammad Moharram. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And, in fact, we heard Mr. Moharram's voice on the two 

phone calls?

A. Yes.

Q. And you met with Mr. Moharram on both days. Correct, 

sir?

A. Yes. That is right.

Q. And you also visited I think you described it as the Gaza 

office of the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. All right. Now, putting before you what has been marked 

as Defense Exhibits 698, 426, 706, and 709, can you take a 

look at those top four photographs, and we will discuss the 

fifth one in a moment.

A. Okay.

Q. And do you recognize the gentleman in the photographs?

A. I am sorry, I don't. It could well be Mr. Moharram. I 

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just don't recall.

Q. Does the Defense exhibit -- 

MS. MORENO: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Does Defense Exhibit No. 698 appear to 

have been taken in Gaza, the Gaza that you visited?

A. I just don't have any way to tell. It could well be. It 

is not inconsistent with what I saw in Gaza, but I just can't 

tell from the photograph.

Q. And you don't recognize the gentleman in the photographs?

A. Well, let's put it this way. It is a very vague 

recollection. It could well be him. I just couldn't tell you 

I was positive about it.

Q. Taking a look at Defense Exhibit No. 669, do you 

recognize that office building that is depicted in No. 669?

A. I am sorry. Yes, No. 669. It is a little difficult to 

tell, but it is possible. I mean, I am reading the sign. It 

is not inconsistent with what I recall the Gaza office of Holy 

Land Foundation looking like.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, I am going to move into 

admission Defense Exhibit No. 698, 426, 706, 709, and 669.

MR. JONAS: We object, Your Honor. If I can voir 

dire the witness on this? 

THE COURT: Go ahead and voir dire. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Mr. McGonigle, the pictures that 

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Ms. Moreno showed you that you have before you, do you 

recognize for sure anybody in these pictures?

A. Do I recognize for sure? No, I couldn't say for sure.

Q. Okay. Do you recognize the areas where these pictures 

were taken?

A. I do not recognize the area in Defense Exhibit No. 698, 

although, as I said earlier, it is possible it was in Gaza, 

but I just cannot tell from the photograph where it was taken. 

And in No. 669, I cannot see the entire building, but again, 

it seems to be consistent with what the office in Gaza of HLF, 

looked like.

Q. What about the other pictures--426, 706, and 709?

A. No. 426, I cannot tell where that was taken. No. 706 and 

709, I would say the same thing. I cannot tell for sure where 

they were taken.

Q. Do you any of the people in either No. 706 or 709?

A. Aside from the fact that the man in the gray suit could 

be Mr. Moharram, I am not certain, I do not know the other 

individuals.

Q. Do you know what is going on in these pictures?

A. Not of my own personal knowledge. I just -- I see what 

anyone else would see, which is someone walking around talking 

to people.

Q. Mr. McGonigle, you don't need to describe it; just if you 

know. 

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A. I am sorry.

Q. It is okay. Do you know when these pictures were taken?

A. No, sir.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we object. I don't think 

there is a foundation that has been laid.

THE COURT: Any other questions you want to ask on 

that, on the foundation? 

MS. MORENO: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will sustain as to 698, 426, 706, 709. 

I will overrule as to 669 and that one is admitted. 

MS. MORENO: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Now, Mr. McGonigle, you met with 

Mr. Moharram twice. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You met with him the first day that you went to the Gaza 

office. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you talked to him about the work that the Holy Land 

Foundation did. 

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you also remember that you saw backpacks in the Holy 

Land Gaza office. Correct?

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A. Yes, ma'am, I do.

Q. And this was during the period of Ramadan. Do you 

remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. And you had a conversation with Mr. Moharram about the 

charitable work that the Gaza office did. Do you recall that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And then you discussed going to -- You talked about that 

you wanted to meet with some families. 

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And Mr. Moharram helped facilitate that. Do you recall 

that?

A. Yes.

Q. And then the next day you saw Mr. Moharram again. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you talked to him further about the work and the 

families and various other things. Is that fair?

A. Yes.

Q. But you can't recall if the gentleman in these pictures 

is Mr. Moharram. Right?

A. It has been nine years, and I am sorry, I just don't 

recall.

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Q. But you recall after having tea for one hour with Mahmoud 

Zahar. Right?

A. A very, very well-known Hamas figure, yes, ma'am.

Q. You recall him. 

The next day, the second day when -- It might have been 

the first day. You said that a gentleman who was I believe 

you called him a member of the board came, a Dr. Asad Abu 

Sharkh. Do you recall that? 

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And you spoke with Doctor Sharkh. Correct?

A. I did, yes.

Q. Now, you have been shown this a couple of times. Do you 

see Doctor Sharkh on this chart?

A. No, ma'am, I do not.

Q. Of Hamas leaders?

A. No, ma'am, I do not.

Q. And that is because Doctor Sharkh is a member of Fatah. 

Correct? You knew that?

A. I am not sure that I know that, no, ma'am.

Q. You didn't know that?

A. I don't recall. I don't recall knowing that. 

Q. Did you do research about the Gaza office board of the 

Holy Land Foundation in preparation for your story?

A. No, ma'am, I didn't. In preparation for my story or in 

preparation for my trip? 

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Q. For the story that you wrote. 

A. In terms of talking to people about the office and about 

the people in the office, I mean, I am sure that I talked 

somewhat to people about that, yes, ma'am.

Q. So is the answer yes, you did research about the board of 

the Holy Land Foundation Gaza office?

A. Did I ask questions about the members of the board and 

specifically Dr. Abu Sharkh? I am sure I did inquire about 

that, because I spent a considerable amount of time talking to 

him.

Q. And did you find out if he was a member of Hamas?

A. I don't recall anybody telling me that, no, ma'am.

Q. And did you find out if anybody else on the board of the 

Gaza office was affiliated with Hamas?

A. No, ma'am. But I can't say that I really inquired about 

any other member of the board.

Q. You didn't inquire?

A. Not to my knowledge, no, ma'am.

Q. Okay. Only the phone call -- I think it was the second 

phone call where they were talking about the families and 

visiting the hospital, do you remember that part of that call?

A. Yes.

Q. And I think Mr. Jonas asked you if you went to visit a 

hospital. Do you remember that?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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Q. Okay. And I think you said they declined?

A. That is what I was told, yes.

Q. All right. And so did you go by yourself to a hospital?

A. No, I did not go.

Q. Okay. Remember the part of the phone call which was 

right around that discussion of the hospital where I 

believe -- Hold on. There was a discussion about a father who 

was paralyzed?

A. Yes, I recall that.

Q. And there was a further discussion about a family living 

on the roof?

A. Yes, I recall that, too.

Q. Okay. And is that sort of representative of the kind of 

poverty that you saw in Gaza?

A. Of those two families you mean? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Yeah, I would say so.

Q. Okay. 

MS. MORENO: May I have a moment, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) With respect -- Just one or two more 

questions. With respect to the families that you actually 

met, you asked the Holy Land people to select families for 

you. Right?

A. Yes, ma'am.

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Q. You asked them to select the families?

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. MORENO: Pass the witness, Your Honor. Thank 

you.

THE COURT: Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Hollander: 

Q. Feel like a gauntlet yet? You are almost finished. 

Good afternoon. 

A. Good afternoon, Ms. Hollander.

Q. You don't have any -- Mohammad Moharram was the head of 

the office in Gaza. Is that your understanding?

A. He was the office manager. He worked for the board and 

Dr. Abu Sharkh.

Q. He spoke little English?

A. He spoke pretty good English. It was not as good to 

Doctor Zahar, for example.

Q. Right. So this whole conversation about friend or not 

friend, it is possible that he could have misunderstood you, 

isn't it?

A. Yes, ma'am, it is possible.

Q. And you don't have any evidence that he was Hamas, did 

you?

A. No, ma'am, I don't.

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Q. Now, you did talk to him. You actually went into their 

office. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see anything else there besides backpacks?

A. I mean, as I recall, it was a fairly sparsely furnished 

place. You know, I was in his personal office. It was a 

relatively large building. I saw only a few rooms, and I 

really don't recall anything that caught my eye other than you 

saw the backpacks when you walked in. They were very brightly 

colored, so it was very hard to miss.

Q. Did you talk to them about the backpack program?

A. I wouldn't be surprised if we had some casual 

conversation about it, just noting that I had seen the 

backpacks, and I was aware that the Foundation, this was one 

of the things the Foundation did was to provide backpacks 

during Ramadan. So we probably had some conversation about 

it.

Q. And the backpacks were filled with things that kids 

needed?

A. That I couldn't tell. I didn't see any opened. They 

were zipped up and sitting on the floor, and I couldn't tell 

whether they were full of things or not.

Q. Okay. Do you recall a conversation with Abu Moharram or 

perhaps with the board people, whoever else you talked to, 

about how they explained that the families came in and filled 

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out a form to become a client of the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, ma'am, I do.

Q. Did you actually look at any of the forms?

A. I did and I saw a blank one. I recall that specifically.

Q. And do you remember what they explained to you?

A. I am sorry. Could you repeat that? 

Q. Do you remember what they explained to you about the 

forms and the families?

A. My recollection is that Mr. Moharram told me that 

families -- This was essentially an application for relief, 

for assistance, and that families would come in and fill out 

these forms in order to be considered for relief.

Q. Were there social workers there?

A. If there were I didn't recognize them as such.

Q. Now, you heard these calls played, and you heard Shukri 

say on the call that he wanted you to see the work they were 

doing. 

A. Yes, I heard that.

Q. Okay. And in fact, a few months before that Shukri sent 

you an email suggesting you go to Gaza and see that work. Do 

you recall that?

A. My recollection actually is that they made that offer to 

me quite a bit before that. It would probably have been 

during the initial meetings we had back in 1996.

Q. But Shukri suggested that you should go there and see it 

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for yourself? 

A. In 1996 he and Mr. Elashi I believe both did. But I 

remember specifically that Shukri did.

Q. And was Gaza -- Were you surprised by what you saw in 

Gaza?

A. I am trying to think of the right word to use. Surprise 

wouldn't necessarily be the word, but it was a place that you 

could not visit and not come away affected by it. That would 

be the way I would put it.

Q. And why would you say that one would be affected by it?

MR. JONAS: I object on relevance.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: It is an extremely desperate place; 

people in very desperate conditions. 

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Did it have any affect on you 

personally?

A. Yes, ma'am, it did.

MS. HOLLANDER: Nothing further, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Mr. Dratel, any questions? 

MR. DRATEL: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And Ms. Cadeddu? 

MS. CADEDDU: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas, any redirect? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

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By Mr. Jonas: 

Q. Mr. McGonigle, Mr. Westfall asked you about spending an 

hour with Doctor Zahar and the meeting with Sheikh Yassin, and 

he showed you the demonstrative where Sheikh Yassin is at the 

top and Doctor Zahar is lower on the list of Hamas leaders. 

Do you know, if you know, why would these Hamas leaders meet 

with you if they knew nothing about the Holy Land Foundation 

and that is what you wanted to talk to them about?

A. I do not know their motivation. I can tell you that they 

did on occasion speak with journalists about topics related to 

Hamas, and that is all I know.

Q. Did you ask them specifically questions about Hamas and 

those topics that they talked to journalists about?

A. I was not so much interested in Hamas' political agenda 

and Hamas' military operations or Hamas' view of Israel and 

its existence as I was Hamas' charitable organizations and 

whether they overlapped or coincided with Holy Land.

Q. Ms. Moreno asked you questions about your reporting on 

the HLF. Do you recall those series of questions a few 

moments ago?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have a personal vendetta against the HLF?

A. No, I don't.

Q. What did you base your stories on?

A. What I read and was told.

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Q. You did interviews?

A. Yes; many.

Q. And you base your stories on those interviews and the 

information you gathered?

A. Yes.

Q. And she talked -- Ms. Moreno questioned you about a 

controversy and that caused pickets in front of the Dallas

Morning News. Were you looking to create a controversy with 

the HLF?

A. Not necessarily, no, sir.

Q. Did you make up any of the information you put in your 

story?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. Did HLF sue the Dallas Morning News?

A. Yes, sir, they did.

Q. What was the result of that lawsuit?

A. The lawsuit was dismissed right after 9/11.

Q. Who dismissed it?

A. HLF did.

Q. Was that before or after they were closed?

A. It was pretty close to the time. I am sorry. I don't 

remember exactly. Pretty close to the time they were closed.

Q. Ms. Hollander, the last few questions to you was about 

your reaction to Gaza. 

A. Uh-huh.

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Q. You said you came away personally affected by that. 

A. Yes.

Q. Did your personal response to these situations in Gaza 

want to make you go out and want to provide support to Hamas?

A. No, sir.

Q. Thank you. 

MR. JONAS: No further questions. 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall? 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Westfall: 

Q. What was the year again that you went to Gaza?

A. '99.

Q. '99? And the fact is that the person that got you to be 

able to see Sheikh Yassin and Doctor Zahar in their homes was 

a journalist. 

A. That is a what he called himself, yes, sir.

Q. And not a Hamas operative. 

A. That I have no knowledge of. I knew him as a Palestinian 

journalist who assisted other journalists in meeting with 

various people, be they Hamas or otherwise.

Q. And you had never met him before?

A. Not in person, no, sir.

Q. And you had never met Doctor Zahar before?

A. No.

Q. And you had never met Sheikh Yassin before?

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A. No.

Q. And Taher, has he also worked for Reuters?

A. He has done -- my understanding is he did stream work for 

Reuters, yes, sir.

Q. And he has been a freelance writer with CBS News?

A. My understanding is he did work with CBS as a freelance 

writer, yes.

Q. He did work with the BBC?

A. That I don't know.

Q. How about the New York Times?

A. My understanding is he has done stream work for the New

York Times, yes.

Q. So a fairly established journalist?

A. A very well known guy, yes, sir.

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Ms. Moreno? 

MS. MORENO: Nothing further. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I have one additional 

question. 

THE COURT: All right. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Hollander: 

Q. Mr. McGonigle, did the fact that you were personally 

affected by what you saw in Gaza make you want to help these 

people?

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A. I am not sure I understand what you mean by help these 

people. I wanted to write an accurate story that reflected 

what I saw.

Q. Did you understand why people would want to provide 

charity assistance to these people?

A. Certainly, yes. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas, anything else? 

MR. JONAS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Mr. McGonigle, you may step down. You 

are free to go. Thank you.

Next witness? 

MR. JACKS: May we approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. JACKS: Our next witness is in custody, so I 

don't know if it is going to be a moment or two before he is 

brought down.

THE COURT: Who is it? 

MR. JACKS: Mohamed Shorbagi.

MS. HOLLANDER: Can I ask a question? Is it going 

to take more than an hour? Is your direct going to be more 

than an hour? 

MR. JACKS: Yes.

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MS. HOLLANDER: The only reason, we just got the 

3500 material. I just need overnight before I cross him.

THE COURT: How long do you expect on your direct? 

MR. JACKS: A couple of hours.

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I just wanted overnight before 

cross.

MR. JACKS: How late did you want to go? 

THE COURT: 6:30 to 7:00. Find a good breaking 

point. 

MS. HOLLANDER: You are going to stay until 7:00? 

THE COURT: 6:30 to 7:00. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.) 

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take our second 

break. Let's take 15 minutes, and we will come back and 

start.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Ready for the witness? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. Did you want to bring him in 

first? 

THE COURT: Yes, we will bring him in first. That 

was the idea.

Go ahead and bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

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THE COURT: Go ahead and have a seat. And raise 

your right hand. 

(Whereupon, the oath was administered by the Court.)

MOHAMED SHORBAGI,

Testified on direct examination by Mr. Jacks as follows:

Q. Would you tell us your name, please?

A. Yes. My name is Mohamed Shorbagi. 

Q. Would you spell your first name and last name for the 

court reporter? 

A. First name is M-O-H-A-M-E-D; last name Shorbagi, 

S-H-O-R-B-A-G-I.

Q. And where were you born, Mr. Shorbagi?

A. I was born in the city of Khan-Yunis in the Gaza strip.

Q. And is that in the area adjacent to Israel?

A. Israel is pulled out from there about three years ago, 

yes, sir.

Q. And how old a man are you?

A. I am 44 years old.

Q. And did you grow up in Khan-Yunis in Gaza?

A. Yes, sir. I grow up till I was 18 and a half.

Q. Is Khan-Yunis a town within the Gaza Strip?

A. It is a town within the Gaza Strip. Right.

Q. And it is spelled K-H-A-N, first word, and then?

A. U-Y-I-N-S [sic].

Q. All right. And you said you lived there until you were 

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18 years old. Is that correct?

A. That is correct, yes, sir.

Q. And when you turned 18, did you come to the United 

States?

A. Yes, sir. I came to the United States on a student visa.

Q. And did you graduate from high school in Gaza?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when you came to the United States, did you come with 

the intention of enrolling in college?

A. Correct.

Q. And where did you come to within the United States to 

attend college?

A. The first college I attended was in Texas here in a city 

called Jacksonville, Jacksonville College.

Q. And is that in east Texas?

A. South of Tyler, yes.

Q. All right. And how long did you attend school at 

Jacksonville College?

A. For six months.

Q. And was that in the spring semester?

A. Spring of '83. Right.

Q. 1983?

A. Correct.

Q. And then did you transfer or relocate to attend a 

different school?

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A. Correct.

Q. Where did you go?

A. To Blinn College in College Station, Bryan/College 

Station.

Q. And did you enroll in Blinn College?

A. Correct.

Q. And would that have been the next semester?

A. Next year.

Q. The fall of '83?

A. The summer, fall, and spring of '84. Right.

Q. All right. And did you relocate or move to attend a 

different school after you attended Blinn College?

A. Yeah. I was trying to admit to Oklahoma State in 

Stillwater but it did not work out, so I came back to Texas.

Q. And did you ever -- How long were you in Oklahoma?

A. For about six months.

Q. And you said that you tried to enroll in Oklahoma State 

at Stillwater. Did you attend school at all while you were in 

Oklahoma?

A. Yes, I attended the fall of '84.

Q. And what was the name of the school that you were 

enrolled in?

A. I attended Oklahoma State for fall of '84, but then after 

that they wouldn't transfer all the credits that I have, so I 

started the spring in a college south of Stillwater and then I 

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came back to Texas.

Q. And do you recall the name of the college that you were 

attending south of Stillwater?

A. I think Seminole, something like that.

Q. Seminole College?

A. Right, uh-huh.

Q. And you said that after you attended Seminole College you 

returned to Texas?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Where in Texas did you relocate to?

A. To Prairie View A&M University.

Q. What city is that in?

A. In Prairie View.

Q. And what city is it near?

A. Houston, Texas.

Q. And when did you enroll in Prairie View A&M?

A. Like summer of '84. Summer of '85. I am sorry.

Q. In '85?

A. Right.

Q. What was your field of study at Prairie View A&M?

A. Electrical engineering.

Q. Did you receive a degree from Prairie View A&M?

A. Correct.

Q. Was that in electrical engineering?

A. Correct.

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Q. And could you tell us when you received that degree? 

When did you graduate from Prairie View A&M?

A. December '87.

Q. December 1987?

A. Correct.

Q. After you received your undergraduate degree, did you 

continue to study or take any post-graduate courses?

A. I took some Master courses at the same university in the 

spring of '86.

Q. At Prairie View A&M?

A. Correct.

Q. And I am sorry. You said you graduated -- Your 

undergraduate degree you received in December 1987?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Okay. When you graduated from Prairie View A&M and while 

you were taking graduate courses, were you employed?

A. Correct.

Q. What kind of work did you do or who did you work for?

A. I worked for Maxwell House Coffee in the engineering 

field.

Q. I am sorry?

A. In the engineering field, PLC, programming language 

control with Maxwell House.

Q. And how long did you work for the Maxwell House Coffee 

Company there in Houston?

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A. Three years.

Q. So that would be from -- Did you go to work for Maxwell 

House shortly after you received your undergraduate degree?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. So that would have been in 1988?

A. Correct.

Q. And you said you worked there for three years, so 

approximately when did you leave Maxwell House or stop working 

there?

A. In the summer of '89. I am sorry. Summer of '91. I am 

sorry.

Q. All right. And did you take up another job after you 

left Maxwell House?

A. First I went to Gaza for a summer. I stayed there for 

almost five months, got married, came back in November of '91.

Q. Approximately when did you go back to Gaza in 1991?

A. The beginning of August of '91, after the first Gulf War.

Q. When you make reference to the first Gulf War, are you 

talking about the war that resulted from Iraq's invasion of 

Kuwait?

A. Correct.

Q. And how long did you stay in Gaza that trip?

A. About five months.

Q. You said you got married during that trip?

A. Correct.

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Q. And when did you return to the United States?

A. Late November of '91.

Q. When you returned to the United States in November of 

1991, did you take up another job or start working anywhere?

A. Correct. I took another job. Right.

Q. Where did you work?

A. I tried to get back at Maxwell House. They wouldn't take 

me because there was a lot of layoff after the Gulf War, last 

year of the Bush administration, the father, and so I applied 

for a job and got a job in a shipping company in Houston, 

Texas. 

Q. I am sorry. What kind of company? 

A. A Middle East shipping company.

Q. A shipping company?

A. Right.

Q. What kind of products did they ship, or was it all kinds 

of products?

A. It was a temporary job for shipping cars, containers 

overseas.

Q. And how long did you work for that shipping company?

A. One year.

Q. And at the end of that one year, what did you do in the 

way of employment?

A. After the year? 

Q. Yes. 

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A. I left that company and got another job in the same 

field, Southwest Shipping, for three months, before I got a 

job in Rome, Georgia.

Q. And is that -- You are saying Rome, Rome, Georgia just 

like roam Italy?

A. Correct, R-O-M-E.

Q. What part of Georgia is Rome, Georgia in; what part of 

the state?

A. It is northwest of Atlanta, about one hour northwest of 

Atlanta.

Q. All right. The company that you went to work for in 

Rome, Georgia what kind of company was that?

A. Called Alexandria Carpet. They used to manufacture 

carpet and ship overseas.

Q. And I am sorry. You are a little bit hard to understand. 

You are saying carpet?

A. Yes, correct; C-A-R-P-E-T, carpet.

Q. Thank you. When did you begin working at Alexandria 

Carpet?

A. 1993 before the Waco accident. I think April 1993.

Q. All right. How long did you work there? 

A. Till I got to jail, until I got in jail two years ago.

Q. Till 2006?

A. 2006. Right.

Q. Let me direct your attention back to when you first came 

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to this country on a student visa. Well, first let me ask 

you, are you a United States citizen?

A. No, sir.

Q. So during your tenure in the United States, has it been 

with either a visa or some kind of -- as a lawful resident 

alien?

A. Correct. I am a permanent resident. Right.

Q. And when you first came to the United States as a 

student, did you become involved in any organizations that 

were affiliated or that other people on campus were associated 

with?

A. Correct.

Q. And let me ask you, was one of those organizations an 

organization known as MAYA?

A. Correct.

Q. And MAYA is M-A-Y-A. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. What does MAYA stand for?

A. It stands for Muslim Arab Youth Association.

Q. And does its name generally reflect who its members or 

participants are?

A. Yeah. The name reflects that they are Muslims and they 

are Arabs. Correct.

Q. And is it a student organization or is it open to others 

that are not students as well?

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A. It is mainly a students organization. Correct.

Q. Are there persons who are not students that also are 

members or participate in MAYA activities?

A. Mostly like former students who graduated and then got a 

job and they have families so they are no longer students, but 

originally they were students. Mainly it was for students. 

Correct.

Q. All right. But former students continue to be members 

and continue to participate. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Did you continue -- After you had finished your studies, 

did you continue to attend MAYA events and participate in MAYA 

activities?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And the name Arab is a part of the title, so is it 

primarily for Arab individuals?

A. Correct.

Q. As opposed to Indonesians or Pakistanis or Afghans or 

that type of thing, is the principal membership Arab 

individuals?

A. The Arabic speaking language, yes, sir; middle 

Easterners.

Q. And for example, would there be Saudi Arabians, Saudis in 

that organization?

A. Correct.

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Q. Kuwaitis?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Let me ask you to say yes or no, because when you go back 

and read uh-huh you can't tell if it is a yes or a no. 

A. Okay.

Q. Egyptians?

A. Correct.

Q. Lebanese?

A. Yes.

Q. Syrians?

A. Correct.

Q. Iraqis?

A. Uh-huh. Yes. I am sorry.

Q. And then persons from Yemen?

A. If you want me to tell you the names, there is 24 Arab 

countries, you go from Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Lybia, 

Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Palestine, Iraq, 

Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar.

Q. So it is the Arab-speaking countries that generally this 

organization focuses on as far as its membership?

A. Correct. 

Q. And did you participate or attend MAYA activities when 

you were a student at Jacksonville College?

A. No.

Q. When you transferred or relocated to College Station and 

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were attending Blinn College did you participate in MAYA 

activities?

A. Correct.

Q. And what type of activities would MAYA have that you 

would attend?

A. MAYA mainly focused on the teachings of Islam for 

students who come from the Middle East to this country for the 

culture shock. We grow up in a very conservative society. We 

don't date, we don't drink, we didn't party. To come to a 

very open society like this, a lot of students could be lost 

in this culture here, so MAYA came to preserve that Islamic 

tradition, Islamic culture for those students to keep their 

Muslim Islamic morals and Islamic behavior. 

So the whole conference mainly were about the Islamic 

teachings, from the Quran and the Sunnah Prophet Muhammad, 

peace be upon Him, and also some other parts about the 

politics that is going on in the Middle East.

Q. You said conferences. And did MAYA hold conferences?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And would it hold several conferences or one conference 

during a year?

A. They mainly held one conference during the Christmas 

time, because that is the students are off school. As you 

say, MAYA is mainly for students. So usually around December 

the 25th, two days before the Christmas, Christmas day, and 

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two days after Christmas day, so five days and nights.

Q. And was that an annual event, these MAYA conventions, or 

conferences as they were called?

A. Yes, they were annual events. Correct.

Q. And were they always in the same place, or did they move 

around?

A. They were moved around, mainly in the central part of the 

United States, so it would be like fair for students living in 

the east and others living in the west, so just like states in 

the middle for both the students to travel to.

Q. And do you recall, when was the first MAYA conference 

that you attended?

A. It was 1983, St. Louis, Missouri.

Q. And you said those conferences generally were five days 

long?

A. Correct.

Q. And what would take place at those conferences? What 

kind of activities?

A. The first day will be opened by the mayor of the city, he 

will give a speech welcoming the visitors to his city. And 

then after that there will be the opening statement by the 

chairman of the conference welcoming all the visitors or the 

members, non-members, coming to the conference. And after 

that there will be a lay-out of the program, what the program 

can be for the next five days.

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Q. Were there speeches?

A. Correct. There were speeches. Right.

Q. Was there entertainment such as skits and music 

performances?

A. Yeah. The last night usually is reserved for 

entertainment. Right.

Q. And were there dinners or meals that were served to 

groups?

A. Correct. There were lunch and dinner. Right.

Q. Was there ever a portion or was there always a portion 

when there was fundraising or solicitation for donations?

A. Yes. Sometimes during the last night after the 

entertainment there will be call for fundraising. Right.

Q. Did every conference or convention have some portion of 

it that was devoted to fundraising?

A. In every conference there was fundraising. Right.

Q. Are you familiar with an organization known as the Muslim 

Brotherhood?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And what type of an organization is the Muslim 

Brotherhood?

A. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded by a very well-known 

man in Egypt named Hassan al-Banna and probably the same 

ideology of the -- MAYA has the same ideology of the 

Brotherhood, to keep the morals of Islam into the Muslims. 

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Because once the countries were taking their independence from 

the Europeans, a lot of countries were with the European 

culture and values, so the Muslim Brotherhood came to preserve 

the Islamic tradition again based on the Quran and the 

tradition of the Prophet MuhammadProphet Muhammad peace be 

upon Him.

Q. And when growing up were you an observant Muslim?

A. Correct. Yes, sir.

Q. And what did that entail? To do that, what were the 

things that you practice?

A. To grow up in a conservative family, my father and my 

mother used to pray. So I started praying when I was seven 

years old, fasting Ramadan. Same thing for my other six 

brothers and six sisters, we used to pray, fast. So we grow 

up in a Muslim family that you don't talk to girls, you don't 

hug girls, you don't date, you don't drink, you don't say bad 

words, you don't do bad things, you don't harm others, you 

always keep humbling yourself, being peaceful. All the good 

morals that is shared by the three major religions, that is 

what we grow up on.

Q. And are you familiar with the term Islamist?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Are you an Islamist?

A. Yes, I can say I am Islamist. Right.

Q. And as an Islamist and as an observant Muslim, does that 

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mean that you believe in sharia law--that that is the type of 

law that should be enacted or enforced or followed?

A. Correct. Yes. Islam to us is a way of life. It is not 

like taking into the mosque, and then outside the mosque then 

you do whatever. For us Islam is a way of life from the 

minute you go to sleep to the minute you wake up. It is a 

comprehensive package that God sent to Prophet Muhammad peace 

be upon Him, that this is the way a man should be, not the 

devil's way, but God's way.

Q. And you -- Is MAYA a Muslim Brotherhood organization?

A. I would say most of the scholars that were invited to the 

MAYA conferences, not all of them, most of them were from the 

Muslim Brotherhood, because you got other scholars also from 

Saudi Arabia who don't belong to Muslim Brotherhood, scholars 

from Kuwait, scholars from Egypt who don't belong to Muslim 

Brotherhood. But yeah, there were a big number of scholars 

came to MAYA conference from the Muslim Brotherhood. Correct.

Q. And does the Muslim Brotherhood have members in the 

United States? Does it have a branch in the United States?

A. I really don't know about that. I attended USRA in 1985 

in Stillwater, but I don't know exactly if they had like, as 

you say, a branch in the United States.

Q. Are there Muslim Brotherhood members in the United 

States?

A. I would imagine so, yes, sir.

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Q. Have you in fact met with and know people that are 

members of the Muslim Brotherhood?

A. Correct. The one who invited me to USRA, Eribhi 

Bishtawi, he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Q. What was that individual's name?

A. Eribhi, E-R-B-I-H-I is first name. Last name is 

Bishtawi, B-I-S-H-T-A-W-I.

Q. And he was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And where did you meet him?

A. In Stillwater, Oklahoma.

Q. Was he a student when you were there?

A. He was doing his Ph.D. in chemical engineering. Right.

Q. And you said he invited you to an USRA meeting. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And that is spelled U-S-R-A?

A. Correct. USRA in Arabic means a family, so you got like 

a family, like group of like four or five sitting down. We 

call it USRA. During like one hour, two hours, we read Quran, 

we study Quran, the sayings Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon 

Him, and study the morals of Islam.

Q. And does the Muslim Brotherhood have open meetings, such 

as you attended, as well as closed meetings that are not open 

to other people?

A. Yeah, I heard there are closed meetings. Correct.

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Q. And how many of these USRA meetings did you attend while 

you were in Oklahoma?

A. Every like two weeks we had one.

Q. And about how many people would participate in these 

meetings?

A. The USRA that I attended there were five people.

Q. You said that you got your undergraduate degree in 

December of 1987. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Even though you were a student and living in the United 

States, did you keep up with events that were going on back in 

Israel or in Palestine?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. A little bit or a lot?

A. A lot.

Q. And would that be something that you did every day to 

either check the newspapers or see what you could find out?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that something that you and your fellow Arab friends 

did together--keeping up with the events back in the Middle 

East?

A. Look, as someone who was born under the Israeli 

occupation there, so you grow up seeing the Israeli army every 

day around you, and you grow up with a lot of things that is 

happening around you. I have been there 18 years. I was born 

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there and raised there, so a lot of things were going on. So 

the only thing that you really grow up with is seeing the 

occupation, the killing, the destruction, and so on. 

I mean, my family were in Gaza just like for a year and a 

half. They just came -- just a month ago came back. My son, 

when I went to jail he was one-year-old. Now he is three 

years old. When he came back, he knows more about Hamas and 

Fatah more than his own father. So when he came back, he was 

talking about which uncle is Hamas, which uncle is Fatah, and 

which cousin, and so on, and he is just three years old. 

So growing up into that environment, that is the only 

thing you really talk about and that is the only thing you 

really are mainly concerned about.

Q. So your answer is that even though when you were in this 

country, you kept very close track of what was going on in 

that part of the world?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And just to cut to the point, Mr. Shorbagi, you are a 

supporter of Hamas. Correct?

A. Yes, sir, I am.

Q. And you believe in Hamas. 

A. Correct.

Q. And you have done things to support Hamas and its goals. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

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MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I am going to object to 

the continuous leading.

THE COURT: Sustained, counsel.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) When went from Oklahoma to Houston, were 

you -- This person that invited you into the Muslim 

Brotherhood meeting, this Bishtawi, did he refer you or 

introduce you to anybody in Houston?

A. No.

Q. And were you connected or able to find anybody in Houston 

that was -- that knew Mr. Bishtawi?

A. When I went to Houston, I went to the Islamic Society of 

Greater Houston, ISGH, and I started attending the Friday 

prayer there. And then from there I started knowing other 

people from the Gaza Strip--Palestinians and Arabs.

Q. But did you have any kind of introduction that you took 

with you or that was conveyed to Houston by persons in 

Oklahoma that referred you to persons in Houston?

A. No.

Q. When you went to Houston, did you continue to participate 

in MAYA activities?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And did you ever do any work for MAYA, either as a 

volunteer or as an employee?

A. No, I never been employee at MAYA. Most of MAYA are 

volunteer basis.

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Q. Did you ever volunteer and do any work for MAYA after you 

got to Houston?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. What would you do for MAYA?

A. The main event for MAYA, as I said, was in December, but 

during the year MAYA used to invite, send an invitation for 

some of the permanent scholars in the Middle East, they will 

get a visa from the U.S. embassies there, and then they will 

come to this country during the year, like March or April and 

so on. 

So when there is a scholar around, then they will 

designate them to different cities and then I will be their 

representative in Houston by going to the airport, pick him 

up, take him to hotel or my apartment for accommodation, and 

then take him to Friday sermon, giving the speech on Friday 

sermon. And then after that at night -- Of course, there will 

be announcements about the scholar in town before his arrival, 

and then at night there will be special night for the scholar 

to talk about the subject that he came for.

Q. And then would there be fundraising after the scholar had 

spoken?

A. I remember really most of that time in '85 was during the 

Russian invasion to Afghanistan, there was some donation for 

the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.

Q. So there would be fundraising, though?

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A. Sometimes, yes.

Q. And are you familiar with an organization known as the 

IAP?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And is that the Islamic Association of Palestine?

A. The Islamic Association for Palestine, yes, sir.

Q. And is it an organization that is associated with MAYA?

A. I think MAYA, IAP they all belong to a big organization 

called ISNA, Islamic Society of North America. That is 

considered like the Muslim leadership, national leadership in 

this country.

Q. And did the IAP and MAYA work together and conduct events 

together?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever do any work for the IAP?

A. I was the IAP representative in Houston, yes, sir.

Q. And when did you perform or work as the IAP 

representative in Houston?

A. I started working for MAYA, then around '86, before the 

start of the first Intifada, I started working for IAP, again 

voluntarily. Same thing, speakers would come to the city and 

I would do the same thing with those speakers.

Q. When did you start working or volunteering for the IAP?

A. In '86.

Q. And who were the principals or the leaders of the IAP?

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MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can we get a time frame, 

please?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) When you started working for the IAP in 

1986-'87, who were the leaders of the IAP?

A. I don't know who was in '86, but '87 I think Yasser 

Bushnaq was the president of IAP.

Q. Who else, do you know, that was --

A. After Yasser a man by the name Omar Ahmad I think.

Q. Is he from northern California?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, Yasser Bushnaq and Omar Ahmad didn't work by 

themselves. They weren't the only persons working for the 

IAP. Correct?

MR. DRATEL: Objection to leading, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained, counsel. Do you want to 

rephrase? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Who else did you know that worked with 

the IAP or was an officer in the IAP or had some position with 

the IAP?

A. I know Osama Ahmad. 

Q. Excuse me?

A. Osama. I think the last name -- What is his last name 

They have an office here in Dallas, and I used to come to the 

office here in Dallas. I mean, I really don't know most of 

the guys here, but only the most important one I know was 

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Yasser Bushnaq.

Q. And was Dallas or Richardson the national office of the 

IAP?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. The national headquarters, I should say. 

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And you said, whereas MAYA was Muslim Arab Youth 

Association, the IAP was Islamic Association for Palestine. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. So it was more specific than MAYA. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection; leading.

THE COURT: Sustained, counsel.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Was IAP focused on Palestine issues?

A. I would say yes.

Q. The IAP What were the activities that you participated in 

and that were held or conducted by the IAP when you were in 

Houston?

A. As I said, before the Intifada, it was mainly like the 

MAYA, guest speakers will come and I will pick them up or 

arrange for someone else to pick them up and then move them to 

the program. After the Intifada started in December of '87, 

things completely changed.

Q. Was the -- Did the Intifada begin, the first Intifada, 

begin at the same time that you graduated from Prairie View 

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A&M?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And was the IAP a part of or connected to an organization 

that began after the first Intifada?

A. Be connected to organization? 

Q. Yes. 

A. No, sir.

Q. Was it connected to Hamas?

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection, Your Honor.

MR. DRATEL: Leading.

THE COURT: That is not suggesting an answer. You 

may ask. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Was the IAP connected to Hamas?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did the IAP do anything in connection with Hamas?

A. Okay. When the Intifada started in '87, the IAP started 

getting the leaflets of Hamas. There were issued in the Gaza 

Strip or West Bank, then the IAP will reprint these leaflets 

and then mail them to different Islamic Centers in the United 

States. I used to get these leaflets by Hamas in ISGH, make 

copies, and then distribute them to the public after the 

Friday sermon in Houston.

Q. When you talk about leaflets, how long are these 

documents?

A. About one page.

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Q. And what kind of information was on them?

A. It was about what the occupation were doing in the 

occupied territories, and how to fight the occupation, resist 

the occupation, to get rid of the occupation for the homeland 

of the Palestinians. They were subjected to occupation for 

the last 20 years when the Intifada started.

Q. What else was contained within these leaflets?

A. It contained, some of it, like how to be helping each 

other as families because of the pressure by the Israelis, and 

some of it on days sent by Hamas for resisting or throwing 

stones at the Israeli occupation.

Q. Did these leaflets contain reports about things that 

Hamas had done?

A. About what? I am sorry? 

Q. Reports about activities that Hamas had coordinated or 

caused to happen?

A. That happened later on in I think '88 or '89 when I think 

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was arrested by the Israelis. I think 

Hamas kidnapped two soldiers in order to get the release for 

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who was paralyzed, and they could not 

meet -- or the Israelis did not release the Sheikh, so they 

killed the two soldiers, so Hamas took the responsibility for 

that.

Q. Well, and then were those reports or those claims printed 

in these leaflets or communiques?

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A. Correct, yes.

Q. And you testified earlier that these communiques would be 

printed or typed up or written in Gaza or in the territories. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And then how were they conveyed to the United States?

A. They used to be faxed to the United States.

Q. And where would they be faxed to?

A. To the IAP office in Dallas.

Q. And you said from there they were distributed by the IAP?

A. IAP will reprint them and then mail them different 

centers in the United States. Right.

Q. And where did you receive these?

A. They used to be sent to the ISGH main office in Houston, 

the Islamic Society of Greater Houston.

Q. I am sorry. Your voice trailed off. What is ISGH?

A. The Islamic Society of Greater Houston.

Q. And that name, what does it consist of? Is it a mosque?

A. It is an Islamic Center that have about like 16 centers 

spread around the greater city of Houston under one 

leadership. It is -- At that time mainly was mosques. Now 

after that there were schools, like kindergarten, and then 

different schools around the city of Houston.

Q. Well, as far as the structure or the building that you 

went to, did it have offices?

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A. Correct, yes. It has -- Yes, there is like the mosque, 

and then the offices for the administration of the mosque. 

Right.

Q. And is that the place that you would go to to do anything 

with the Islamic Center or society? What is it called?

A. Islamic Society of Greater Houston.

Q. All right. But that is the facility that you would go to 

-- Is that where you receive these communiques in the mail?

A. That is correct. I will use their -- I mean, I used to 

go there before Friday sermon, take that leaflet, and go to 

Kinkos, make like a few copies, like 200, 300 copies, and then 

go back to the mosque and distribute them.

Q. Do you know an individual named Mufid Abdulqader?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when did you first meet him?

A. I met him very briefly in Stillwater, Oklahoma.

Q. This would have been during the time period of -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection to leading, Your Honor.

THE COURT: He has already testified to that. Go 

ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) In 1984-'85?

A. 1984. Correct.

Q. And where did you meet him?

A. I met him in the mosque.

Q. And did you ever have an occasion to go anywhere with him 

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or take a trip with him?

A. One time I think in the MAYA convention in Oklahoma City 

in '84 we were a group of students that left Stillwater to 

Oklahoma City to attend the MAYA conference.

Q. And was he one of those students that traveled to 

Oklahoma City with you?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Do you know Mohammad El-Mezain?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when -- First of all, where did you meet him for the 

first time?

A. I met Mr. El Mezain in Houston I think in '87 or '88; 

late '80s.

Q. And where did you meet him in Houston?

A. I think the first time I met him -- I am trying to 

remember. I think before '87 I met him in the MAYA 

convention, one of the MAYA conventions. And then he came to 

Houston in 1990. That time the Israelis invaded the al-Aqsa 

mosque, and there were a lot of people who got killed, shot 

there, and he came in there because the Israelis also 

destroyed the system, the speaker system of al-Aqsa mosque. 

He came in there for fundraising for the speakers of al-Aqsa 

mosque that were destroyed by the army, the Israeli army.

Q. Well, then let me back up. You said you first met him at 

a MAYA convention. 

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A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Where was that?

A. I think in Kansas City, '88.

Q. Kansas City, Missouri?

A. Kansas City, Missouri. Correct.

Q. 1988?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And did you personally meet him; in other words, walk up 

and talk to him?

A. Yes, sir. I think I was introduced to him by someone, 

because he is from the same city I am from, and that is how I 

was introduced to him and I got to know him. Right.

Q. Do you recall who it was that you introduced you to him?

A. I don't remember, sir. No.

Q. And you said that he is from the same city that you are?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Khan Yunis?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. What was he doing at the MAYA convention? What was his 

purpose in being there?

A. I think like everybody else. He was attending -- 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, basis of knowledge. He 

asked him what Mr. El-Mezain was doing at the MAYA convention. 

I object to the form of the question on basis of knowledge.

THE COURT: Do you want to ask another question and 

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lay a predicate, if he knows.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you know what Mr. Mohammad El-Mezain 

was doing there at the MAYA convention?

A. As I said, just like any other person attending the MAYA 

conference.

Q. Was he just sitting in the audience?

A. Sitting in the audience? 

Q. Did he have a role? Did he get up on the stage?

A. I remember him getting for donation, yes, in '88.

Q. On behalf of who?

A. That time there was an organization called the Occupied 

Land Fund, OLF.

Q. Occupied Land Fund?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Did that organization change its name later?

A. Correct.

Q. What name did it change to?

A. Holy Land Foundation.

Q. What was he doing at this Kansas City convention in 1988 

for the Occupied Land Fund?

A. Calling for the donation for the needy families and the 

poor families in the occupied territories.

Q. Did you see Mr. El-Mezain after that over the years?

A. Right. As I said in 1990.

Q. Other times would you see him periodically while you were 

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in Houston and while you were in Georgia?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And as you would see him through the later years, who was 

he working for?

A. He was working for the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Did you see Mufid Abdulqader ever at MAYA conventions 

through the years?

A. The only time -- As I said, I knew Mufid only very, very 

briefly. The only time I see him is singing in the MAYA 

conventions.

Q. What about at IAP conventions or festivals?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And what was he doing at those events?

A. He had a nice voice, so singing in these conventions.

Q. Did he have a band?

A. He belonged to a band. Right.

Q. What was the name of the band?

A. It was called Al Sakhra, the rock.

Q. Do you know a man by the name of Abdel Haleem Ashqar?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And how long have you known Abdel Haleem Ashqar?

A. I met him just a few times, and I didn't see him since 

like '94 or '95. I think the first time I met him was in '92.

Q. Where did you meet him?

A. In Oklahoma City.

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Q. And how did you meet him?

A. I was introduced to him by a friend of mine from Houston.

Q. Who was that friend?

A. Jamil Dalu. 

Q. J-A-M-I-L?

A. Right.

Q. And the last name?

A. D-A-L-U.

Q. D-A-L-U. And how did Jamil Dalu know Abdel Haleem 

Ashqar?

MR. DRATEL: Objection; hearsay. 

THE COURT: Do you want to ask if he knows.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What did Jamil Dalu tell you regarding 

how he knew --

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I am not offering it for the 

truth. It is just to show what was expressed to him when he 

was introduced to Mr. Ashqar.

MR. DRATEL: Then I don't think it is relevant, Your 

Honor. I don't know why that is relevant.

MS. HOLLANDER: If it is not true, it certainly is 

not relevant.

THE COURT: Overrule the objection. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What was represented to you about how 

Jamil Dalu knew Abdel Haleem Ashqar?

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A. They were attending the university in West Bank called 

Bir Zeit University.

Q. They went to school together?

A. Correct.

Q. And you said that you first met him in 1992?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And you said the last time that you saw him was when, 

approximately?

A. About '94.

Q. And in that interim period would you see him 

periodically?

A. Not really, other than the MAYA convention if he was 

there. That is the only time.

Q. At these conventions, were there things for sale at the 

conventions?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What types of things?

A. Like those lectures that were made by the guest speakers, 

MAYA will make them available in tapes, cassette tapes or 

videotapes. They will be sold there. Books will be sold 

there, clothes, food, things like that nature.

Q. And did you purchase -- ever purchase videotapes of these 

speeches or audiotapes of speeches?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever in the audio -- Excuse me. In the 

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videotapes did you ever see Ashqar depicted?

A. Right, yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, at this time I would request 

permission to play a video which has been admitted. I believe 

it is HLF Search No. 32. 

THE COURT: All right.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, we need to approach on 

this. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.) 

MR. DRATEL: I was going to defer to Ms. Duncan, 

because I think -- Looking at it, it apparently has been 

admitted conditionally. I don't know if we remember 

precisely. It wasn't a familiar number, which is why I was 

kind of curious.

MS. DUNCAN: This was one of the exhibits introduced 

conditionally through Agent Burns in bulk.

MS. HOLLANDER: They were admitted, and they were 

all admitted -- I think that is one of the housekeeping ones 

through Agent Burns, and we said that if we had objections to 

them we could make them later.

THE COURT: So do you have an objection? 

MR. DRATEL: We didn't know it was coming today.

MS. HOLLANDER: I was not anticipating this one.

MR. JACKS: It has already been played, Your Honor.

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MS. HOLLANDER: I don't think so.

MR. DRATEL: I don't believe it has been played. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am concerned about what he is 

going to do.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, this is one of the same 

videos we have played already. If it hasn't been played, it 

is the same nature, so I don't see -- 

MR. DRATEL: Can we just perhaps get a proffer of 

what is going to be on this particular snippet, maybe it won't 

be a --

MS. HOLLANDER: If it has already been played, why 

is it being played again?

THE COURT: One at a time.

MR. JACKS: He is going to identify one of the 

individuals as Ashqar in that video.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. DRATEL: May I inquire just, is it just Ashqar? 

Is there audio we are going to hear? 

MR. JACKS: Yes. It is Ashqar making a speech 

wearing a hood. He knows that is Ashqar. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. DRATEL: We object on 403 grounds.

MR. JACKS: It has already been played, Your Honor.

MR. DRATEL: It has not been played.

THE COURT: I am going to let you play it. 

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MS. HOLLANDER: I think it maybe has been played, 

but -- And I know -- Now I know which tape this is, and I do 

object 403 grounds. And I also object that I don't know that 

they can play it -- lay a foundation that he knew who this was 

before the Government played it for him before, because it is 

almost like a show-up; you know, they are going to play him a 

tape that I belief they played for him before and told him who 

it was, and we don't have any way of knowing that.

MS. CADEDDU: And I am concerned about foundation, 

given the testimony that just came out that he will see him 

occasionally at the MAYA conventions. But how he is going to 

identify his voice, I don't know that he has a foundation to 

do that.

THE COURT: He is going to ask him, and of course 

you can cross examine him. I don't know either.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I just -- I was not here 

for half a day, and I think probably that is when it was 

played. I don't remember it, but if everybody else does I am 

sure it was played.

MS. HOLLANDER: I don't know if it is played. I 

know the tape, whether it was played here or whether I 

remember it from somewhere else.

THE COURT: All right. You can play it, then. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

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MR. JACKS: Please play HLF Search No. 32.

(Whereupon, HLF Search No. 32 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. Have you seen this tape before, Mr. Shorbagi?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Go to the next segment, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Mr. Shorbagi, do you see the object in 

the top of the screen there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that? What is shown there?

A. That is the Palestinian flag.

Q. And describe the colors, if you would. It is not a very 

clear picture, but what colors is it when it is visible?

A. The top is black and then you have got the middle is 

white and the bottom is green and the triangle is the red.

Q. And the Arabic writing in the white part, what does that 

say?

A. It says in Arabic Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas.

Q. Do you recognize that voice?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whose voice is that?

A. I knew later on that was the voice of Abdel Haleem 

Ashqar.

Q. You have talked to him? You have talked to him?

A. Right.

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Q. And you have heard his voice?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. To you is it a distinctive voice?

A. I would say yes, uh-huh. 

Q. Did you see the caption on the screen, the Majd 

Organization?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that? 

A. It says right in Arabic it is the security authorities.

Q. Well, do you know what it is without having seen it on 

the screen? Do you know what that --

A. I was reading in the newspaper -- 

Q. No. I am not asking what you read in the newspaper. Do 

you know what that organization is, the Majd Organization?

A. No, sir.

Q. Who is that speaking on the screen?

A. That is Abdel Haleem Ashqar.

Q. Say it a little slower. 

A. That is Abdel Haleem Ashqar. 

Q. Do you see the reference there to the al-Majd 

Organization?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And seeing it there, do you know what it refers to?

MR. DRATEL: Object. It has been asked and 

answered.

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THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Have you heard of the al-Majd 

Organization?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. What is it?

A. Al-Majd is the security apparatus that was looking after 

the collaborators of Israel in the occupied territories, 

interrogate them, and then investigate their collaboration 

with Israel.

Q. For who? What organization are they a part of?

A. They are part of Hamas.

Q. And what do they do to persons they perceive as 

collaborators?

A. It depends on what collaboration, like either a small 

one, a middle one, or a big one. A big one, who joined the 

Israeli army by shooting at the Palestinians, and if they 

found that he killed Palestinians, they have to get a decree, 

an Islamic decree for him to be killed, so some of them, yeah, 

they were killed.

Q. And how soon after they were captured were they killed?

A. I really don't know, but I knew they would be taken for 

interrogation, and then if there is a decree for him to be 

executed they will execute him.

Q. Is there appeal from that? Can you appeal that if you 

are accused of being a collaborator?

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MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, may we approach?

THE COURT: No. Overrule the objection. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: Excuse me.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) A person that Hamas determines to be a 

collaborator, do they have an appeal from that?

A. You are talking about occupation.

Q. I am sorry. My question was -- 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, if he can let him answer.

THE WITNESS: No, there was no appeal, sir.

MS. CADEDDU: Have you given a date for this video? 

MR. JACKS: I am sure we have but I don't remember 

it.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is that still Mr. Ashqar?

A. Correct.

Q. Mr. Ashqar?

A. Correct, yes. 

Q. Do you know who that is shown on the screen?

A. I read about him in the newspaper. Right.

Q. What did he do?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is this part of the information that you 

have kept up with regarding your home?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Have you talked to people about this?

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A. Correct. I mean, that was a very, very popular accident. 

That was broadcast all over the news--ABC NBC, CBS, about the 

bus accident.

Q. The bus accident?

A. Right, yes, sir.

Q. What did this person do?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor, if he heard it 

on the news.

THE COURT: Which person are you referring to, 

counsel? 

MR. JACKS: The person that was depicted on the 

screen a moment ago.

THE COURT: If he knows personally. But if he is 

talking about news reports, that has been sustained. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Sir, the flag that was shown in that 

video, you said it was the Palestinian flag?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And now, the official Palestinian flag, what does it look 

like?

A. It looks like the one that was shown on the screen--the 

black in the top, white in the middle, green in the bottom, 

and the red is the triangle.

Q. And does it have writing in the white part in the middle, 

the official Palestinian flag?

A. The official Palestinian flag that was founded like late 

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'20s early '30s, it doesn't have any writing.

Q. What flag -- Who displays the flag with the writing in 

the middle?

A. When the Intifada started in '87, in order for Hamas to 

distinguish themselves from the other factions of the PLO, 

whatever they used to go into the administration, they used to 

hold the Palestinian flag with the writings of the Shahada 

which there is no God but one, and Muhammad, peace be upon 

Him, is his messenger, so to distinguish himself from the 

other factions of the PLO.

Q. So Hamas had its own version of the Palestinian flag?

A. It is the same flag but with the Shahada in the middle of 

it, so Hamas has its own -- like their own Palestinian flag.

Q. What else may be written in that white part in the Hamas 

flag?

A. Sometimes, as you see on the screen, it will say the 

Islamic Resistance Movement.

Q. And the name of the expression or the religious saying 

that you said was written in some of these Hamas flags?

A. Correct. That is the Shahada. Right.

Q. I want to direct your attention to 1992. Do you 

recall -- Did you go to a MAYA convention in 1992?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Where was that convention held?

A. In Oklahoma City.

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Q. And have you looked at a video that is referred for 

identification purposes as Government's Exhibit MAYA 

Conference? Have you seen a video of that conference?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And is that video a true and accurate representation of 

the events as they happened at that conference?

A. Correct, yes.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would move the admission of 

Government's Exhibit MAYA Conference. 

THE COURT: Counsel? 

MS. HOLLANDER: We never got a list for this. This 

has not been admitted before, and it was not on any list that 

we knew --

THE COURT: Did you give a list in advance -- 

MR. JACKS: This is the only exhibit, Your Honor, 

that he is going to introduce.

THE COURT: We didn't discuss about a list on this 

one, counsel, and that is inappropriate to be going into that 

right now. Is it on the exhibit list that counsel received in 

advance? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: Well, I am hearing -- Anybody know? Is 

it on the exhibit list? 

MR. DRATEL: I don't know.

THE COURT: The general exhibit list. 

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MR. DRATEL: I will have to check. No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: It is not on the exhibit list? 

MR. JACKS: It is, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: I show it on page 35.

MR. WESTFALL: It is on the list, Your Honor. It is 

on that list that we were provided at the beginning.

MR. DRATEL: I am looking at the disk that we 

received the 8th of October.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. MAYA Conference 

Exhibit is admitted. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis? 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I am going to object on 403 

grounds as well.

THE COURT: That is overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Sir, what does Mujahideen translate to?

A. Mujahideen is the plural of a single Mujahid. Mujahid in 

Arabic means the one who is struggling for the best. There 

could be different explanation for it. But mainly when he is 

referring to Mujahideen, the same thing when you say the 

freedom fighters, the one who is fighting for their homeland.

Q. Fighters?

A. Freedom fighters, yes, sir.

Q. Mujahid is singular and Mujahideen is plural?

A. That is correct. Mujahid is single, and Mujahideen is 

plural of Mujahideen.

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Q. The word on the screen is plural, fighters? 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. It is not what 

he said the definition is. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is it?

A. Yes, sir. It is the freedom fighters, yes.

MR. WESTFALL: Can we have a date on this movie? 

MR. JACKS: December 1992.

?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) The caption that just appeared, is that 

consistent with what you have said about the association 

between MAYA and the Islamic Association for Palestine?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. The man on the right there is who?

A. That is Mufid.

Q. Do you see him in the courtroom today, Mufid Abdulqader?

A. Yes, sir. He is right there.

MR. JACKS: May the record reflect he has identified 

the Defendant Mufid Abdulqader.

THE COURT: It may do so. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Just for the record, do you know Ghassan 

Elashi? 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you see him in the courtroom?

A. Yes, sir. He is right there. 

MR. JACKS: May the record reflect --

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THE COURT: That is too vague--"He is over there."

THE WITNESS: He is sitting next to the female 

there.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) The woman in the black dress, to her 

right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And Mohammad El-Mezain?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is he in the courtroom?

A. Yes, sir. He is in the courtroom.

Q. What colored coat is he wearing?

A. I think that is beige color.

Q. All right. And do you know Shukri Abu Baker?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where is he in the courtroom?

A. He is sitting by the female -- between the two females 

there.

MR. JACKS: May the record reflect he has identified 

those Defendants? 

THE COURT: It may do so.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you know Abdulrahman Odeh?

A. No, sir.

MR. JACKS: If you will resume it, please, Jim.

(Government's Exhibit MAYA Conference continued to be 

played, while questions were propounded.)

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Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you know that man on the screen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who is that?

A. That is Fawaz Mushtaha. 

Q. The man on the far right, do you know him?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

A. That is Munzer Taleb. 

Q. Who was that person?

A. That is Kamal Hilbawi.

Q. H-I-L-B-A-W-I?

A. Correct.

Q. Who is that on the screen?

A. That is Khalid Mishal.

Q. And what was his position, if any, with Hamas?

A. Now? 

Q. Now. 

A. He is the head of Hamas political wing.

Q. What was his position in 1992?

A. I don't think that he has any position in 1992. He was 

-- I met him in 1994, and then he was introduced as one of the 

leaders of Hamas. 

Q. Who is the man on the right of Mr. El-Mezain?

A. That is Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. The man on the left, who is that?

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A. The man on the left is Omar Ahmad.

Q. The man you made reference to earlier? You said he was 

from?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Sir, what is going on now on the screen? 

What part of the program is this?

A. This is the fundraising during the MAYA convention.

Q. Who is raising funds?

A. Mr. Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. For what organization?

A. For the Holy Land Foundation. 

Q. Do you see the caption on the screen?

A. Right.

Q. And it says Rome mosque in Georgia?

A. Correct.

Q. And did you after this date become or have an association 

with that entity?

A. This thing was in '92. In 92 I was in Houston. I moved 

to Rome in '93.

Q. Did you after this date have an association with this 

mosque in Rome, Georgia?

A. Correct, I did. 

Q. Did you see the reference to brother Samir for a $50,000 

donation?

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A. Correct, yes.

Q. Do you know who that person is?

A. Yes, I know who that person is.

Q. And who is that?

A. He was the founder of Alexandria Carpet He passed away, 

and peace be with his soul, last year.

Q. And is he the person that you went to work for after you 

left Houston? When you moved to Rome, Georgia is that the man 

you went to work for?

A. Correct.

Q. It is difficult to see, but do you see the man in the 

center of the screen?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And who do you recognize in that picture, the man in the 

middle of the screen?

A. The one who is sitting down wearing the Afghan dress, 

wearing the Afghan hat is Hadj Samir Khatib.

Q. I am sorry. You said that fast. Who is that?

A. Samir Khatib.

Q. He is the man wearing -- You described it as an Afghan 

what?

A. The Afghan dress and the Afghan hat.

Q. All right. Is he the individual that had donated the 

$50,000?

A. Correct, yes.

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Q. Do you see the man moving down the aisle?

A. Right.

Q. Who is that?

A. That is Omar Ahmad.

Q. The one holding the container or box or whatever?

A. Correct.

Q. Do you know what he was doing? At that moment what was 

he doing?

A. That is the time when people were pledging money and 

people donating money, so he was holding a box moving around 

people for whoever wanted to donate money so they can put it 

in a box. 

Q. Is that Mr. al-Khatib in the close zoomed in picture?

A. Yes, that is Hajj Khatib.

Q. The man behind the two men in the foreground. Is that 

correct?

A. Yes, sir. That is correct.

Q. Who is that man that is depicted on the front row there?

A. That is Khalid Mishal.

Q. The man on the far left on the front row, who is that?

A. That is Moustafa al-Mansour.

Q. What was his position? What title did he hold?

A. He was the general chairman of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Q. For the entire world?

A. Correct, yes.

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MR. JACKS: Your Honor.

THE COURT: You are at a good stopping point? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Let's break here for the day. We will 

See you back in the morning at 9:00. Remember we will work 

until 1:00, and then we will be done for the day. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Anything we need to address? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes, Your Honor. If we could, after 

the witness is gone.

THE COURT: All right. You may go ahead and take 

Mr. Shorbagi. 

And you can be seated, those that want to stay. 

Do we need to have a sidebar, or from there? 

MR. DRATEL: We may. I have two other things first. 

First is, again we have and I will be quick, the 

introduction of acts of violence, and these Defendants are not 

charged with any. Collaboration killers, collaborators, that 

has nothing to do with this case. This is again -- I will 

cite al-Moayad again. This is really beyond the pale. I am 

going to ask for a mistrial again. I just feel compelled to 

do so.

THE COURT: The request for mistrial is denied.

MR. DRATEL: And, Your Honor, just with respect to 

the exhibits, just so you understand logistic issues for us, I 

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get a disk on October 8th that says -- where I am told these 

are all the Government exhibits. This tape is not on there, 

so I don't know that I have to go back to another list that I 

got when --

THE COURT: Well, but we know there are multiple 

lists and multiple disks. The best thing to do is don't say, 

"No, I don't have it." Take a look and look at what you have. 

And Ms. Hollander, you do that repeatedly. You are 

sitting over there shaking your head no all the time. You 

obviously haven't looked, because then it turns out that they 

are there. 

And the list you were talking about was this convenience 

list that we have been doing with the longer witnesses. We 

didn't do that with this witness. That is not a basis for 

excluding anything. And that is certainly improper getting 

that in front of the jury that you don't have something, and 

then we go through this exchange and then you do have it. 

That is improper.

MR. DRATEL: I was told when I was given that disk 

that it superseded all prior exhibits, so that is what I am 

working on. If I know now I have to check six or seven lists, 

then --

THE COURT: Just check your list. We checked our 

list and it is on there, the very first list. I say the 

first. It is one of those lists we got; not the superseding 

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ones. It is on there. 

MR. DRATEL: Okay. I understand. I just wanted you 

to understand what we are dealing with here.

THE COURT: That is fine. I know we are all dealing 

with a lot, but the best thing to do is if you don't know, 

just don't--in front of the jury especially--be claiming that 

you don't have it, that it wasn't given to you, before you 

check. Just hold off and then we can check. 

MR. DRATEL: Fair enough, Your Honor. 

Also I was also under the impression, by the way, that 

the Court had ordered that prior to witnesses, and I didn't 

know that applied to certain ones.

THE COURT: We haven't discussed any past Agent 

Miranda the longer witnesses. We can discuss that. I didn't 

know how many more exhibits we have left. I saw where you did 

that with Agent Burns, and that is good because that is a 

fairly long list, so I want to get objections to those.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I am sorry, but when you 

said was it on the list, I thought you meant the list for this 

exhibit.

THE COURT: No, you were the one that objected, 

counsel. You objected first that it wasn't on the list that 

they were supposed to have turned over to you, and I assume 

that you were speaking of that convenience list. You said, 

"It is not on the list that they plan on introducing with this 

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witness." We have never discussed exchanging that with this 

witness. That has just never come up. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, maybe this is an issue that 

we should approach on. 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am sorry, Your Honor. I thought 

that was for all of us. It is my mistake. I am sorry.

MR. DRATEL: That paragraph which I am pointing to, 

the second paragraph on page 3 -- The Government gave us a 

letter today this afternoon with respect to Mr. Shorbagi, and 

it is about sort of unredacting a redacted 302. However, the 

unredacted part still has a redacted part. 

I think that at the very least the Court should look at 

it to determine whether it is relevant and -- 

THE COURT: You are talked about second redacted and 

unredacted.

MR. DRATEL: In other words, this is supposed to be 

something that is fully unredacted, and then it is still 

redacted.

MS. HOLLANDER: The letter says we previously --

THE COURT: Just a minute. Let me read it. Okay. 

So what is it here that we are dealing with? 

MR. DRATEL: Well, It says -- 

THE COURT: What is it that you want? 

MR. DRATEL: I want to know who the redacted parts 

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are. It may be very well relevant to this case and relevant 

to impeaching this person, and we are talking about money to 

Hamas.

THE COURT: What is your position? 

MR. JACKS: I will tender it to the Court. And let 

me check with the agent, because some of this activity may 

involve other investigations and that may be the reason other 

districts -- And let me find out. I will have to see.

THE COURT: That is fine. 

MR. JACKS: I will be happy to tender it to the 

Court.

THE COURT: Anything else on that? 

MR. DRATEL: No. Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Anything else? See you at 9:00.

(End of day.)

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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts 06/05/2009

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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