IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( SEPTEMBER 29, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 10 OF 37

______________________________________________________________

STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 (214) 753-2349

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INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

LARA BURNS

Direct By MR. JONAS ............................................. 39

Government's Exhibits

Government's Exhibits Page

Hamas Charter No. 3 Admitted into evidence. 43

El-Mezain Deposition Admitted into evidence. 46

HLF Wiretap 2, 2-A Admitted into evidence. 53

OLF 1988 Disbursements Admitted into evidence. 56

1989 OLF Disbursements Admitted into evidence. 63

HLF Search No. 7 Admitted into evidence. 65

HLF Search No. 8 Admitted into evidence. 66

Baker Declaration Admitted into evidence. 67

HLF Search No. 108 Admitted into evidence. 69

InfoCom Search No. 28 Admitted into evidence. 73

Payments To IC/Gaza Admitted into evidence. 74

HLF Bank Account No. 1, 3 Admitted into evidence. 76

HLF Search No. 42 Admitted into evidence. 76

InfoCom Search No. 20 Admitted into evidence. 76

HLF Foreign Bank Account No. 1 Admitted into evidence. 76

Chart Bank Accounts Admitted into evidence. 77

Payments to K&A Trading Admitted into evidence. 84

K&A Trading Account Admitted into evidence. 87

K.Agha/K&A/Marzook Admitted into evidence. 91

Elbarassee Search No. 36, 39 Admitted into evidence. 92

Marzook Bank Account No. 4 Admitted into evidence. 92

Chart Marzook/UASR Admitted into evidence. 95

Marzook Bank Account No. 1, 3 Admitted into evidence. 96

Elbarasse Search No. 38 Admitted into evidence. 96

Marzook/IAP Admitted into evidence. 97

Marzook Bank Account No. 2 Admitted into evidence. 98

Marzook/Defendants Admitted into evidence. 101

Elbarasse Search No. 40 Admitted into evidence. 105

Marzook Tax No. 1 Admitted into evidence. 107

InfoCom Search No. 83 Admitted into evidence. 112

Baker Wiretap No. 2, 2-A Admitted into evidence. 113

El-Mezain Wiretap 11, 11-A Admitted into evidence. 118

Marzook/Defendants Phone Calls Admitted into evidence. 125

HLF Search No. 9, 10 Admitted into evidence. 126

Bell Atlantic 1, 2 Admitted into evidence. 126

South Central Bell Admitted into evidence. 126

New Jersey Bell Admitted into evidence. 126

Payments to Islam RA Admitted into evidence. 136

HLF Search No. 44 Admitted into evidence. 137

Elbarasse Search No. 17 Admitted into evidence. 139

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InfoCom Search No. 3 Admitted into evidence. 140

InfoCom Search No. 4 Admitted into evidence. 140

Demonstrative No. 8 Admitted into evidence. 142

InfoCom Search No. 22 Admitted into evidence. 143

Elbarasse Search No. 18 Admitted into evidence. 150

Ashqar Wiretap No. 1, 1-A Admitted into Evidence 163

Ashqar Wiretap No. 2, 2A Admitted into evidence. 168

Ashqar Search No. 4 Admitted into Evidence 171

Philly Meeting Summary Admitted into Evidence 173

Philly Meeting No. 1-18 Admitted into Evidence 177

Baker Wiretap No. 4, 4A Admitted into evidence. 196

Elbarasse Search No. 19 Admitted into evidence. 224

InfoCom Search No. 5 Admitted into Evidence. 233

El-Mezain Wiretap No. 2 Admitted into Evidence. 234

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THE COURT: I have not had a chance to look at all 

these written objections, but I have looked through a good 

portion of them and I understand Mr. Elashi is the Defendant 

who is in custody. Is your client here? 

MR. CLINE: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And the rest of the Defendants, we don't 

need them here for this hearing? 

MR. WESTFALL: That is true, Your Honor. 

MR. DRATEL: Based on timing of morning prayer and 

the traffic, I didn't think they would be able to make it 

until 8:45.

THE COURT: That is fine.

All right. The objections to the search exhibits, 

Abdulqader wiretaps, the Ashqar wiretaps, the Baker 

wiretaps -- Let me start with the wiretaps. Those objections 

that were based on the hearsay and the timing, those are 

overruled, the same rulings that we have had previously.

And then the items that were recovered in the searches, 

the Ashqar search and Elbarasse search, those are also 

overruled. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, may I ask one question on 

that?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. CLINE: At the last trial Judge Fish 

conditionally admitted the co-conspirator statements subject 

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to a motion to strike at the end of the Government's case.

THE COURT: And you can have that. 

MR. CLINE: So at the end of the Government's case 

we can renew -- 

THE COURT: Correct. I understand the argument with 

whether a conspiracy is established or not. We are early on 

in the case, so certainly you can have that conditional 

admitting. So that would apply to all -- the wiretap? 

MR. CLINE: And I am sorry to keep interrupting. 

One other thing. May we have -- Just to make sure our record 

is clear, may we have a conditioning objection to the various 

exhibits based in what is stated in our pleadings so we don't 

have to keep hopping up and objecting to things.

THE COURT: Yes, sir. And you may have that 

continuing objection. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, since it is going to be a 

continuing objection, we would ask that the Defense not stand 

up and make an objection if the document or exhibit doesn't 

have an author or indicated. We think that is unnecessary, 

and in a way it is intended to communicate something to the 

jury that is not necessary and appropriate at that time.

THE COURT: Counsel, any response to that? 

MR. CLINE: I think we have a continuing objection, 

so I don't think --

THE COURT: And I have ruled on those objections. 

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All right.

I am on page 11 and 12 of the Defendants' written 

objections, the El-Mezain deposition. And on page 12 at the 

very end of Roman numeral paragraph 4, pages 2 to 6 of the 

proposed El-Mezain deposition, Mr. Jonas, do you see that? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, Your Honor. And if I may address 

the deposition issue. Ms. Hollander and I met yesterday to go 

over the deposition of her client Shukri Baker as well as the 

declaration. I believe we came to an agreement as to how the 

final form should be, and those changes were made this 

morning.

THE COURT: Are you in agreement with that? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am. And I brought a copy just to 

make sure -- We were doing it pretty fast, but I think we have 

it, Your Honor.

MR. JONAS: On the El-Mezain deposition, we received 

an email from his counsel late last night that they have some 

objections. We just had a very, very brief discussion on it 

just before Your Honor got on the bench. There is one or two 

pages of that I plan to getting into this morning with Agent 

Burns. I don't believe I am get into anything else. 

We will meet to discuss the rest of their issues and try 

to work something else at the end of the case. So I guess my 

point is if Your Honor can reserve ruling on that.

THE COURT: Certainly.

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MR. DRATEL: That is appropriate, Your Honor. 

MR. CLINE: And, Your Honor, on the subject of the 

depositions and declarations generally, on behalf of Mr. 

Elashi, and I suspect the other Defendants not involved will 

agree with this, we would ask the Court at the time the 

excerpt is read into evidence to give a limiting instruction 

that it applies only to the Defendant who is the declarant in 

the particular piece of evidence. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, our position is that is fine 

if we are offering the statement for the truth. But if it is 

a statement that is a false statement that we say is done to 

further conceal the conspiracy, we don't think such an 

instruction is appropriate. 

And I think we need to be clear, because given the 

instruction last week that the instruction is because this 

particular statement in this particular deposition was made 

after the conspiracy pretty much ended, after Holy Land was 

shut down--I don't want to say after the conspiracy ended. 

That is the wrong term. But, this is after HLF was shut 

down--is very limited. I am concerned that what I said last 

week at the bench that if a Defendant makes a statement in the 

'90s, let's say, when the HLF was up and running, those 

statements certainly are statements made in furtherance, and 

we don't want the jury to confuse what they can limit to one 

Defendant versus what they can hold against everybody. So I 

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think we need to carefully craft an instruction for Your Honor 

to give at those appropriate times. 

MR. CLINE: And I am not sure what is coming in today. 

If we have time to do that, I am happy to meet -- 

THE COURT: And I think we will have some time. We 

will finish up here in just a few minutes, and then you can 

work on that or even during the day. And I won't give it 

until we come up with something. 

The wiretap and the search exhibits, then, those 

objections have been overruled. 

And then we are withholding on the depositions to give 

counsel a chance to work it out. 

What other exhibits, then, do I need to rule on? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Roman numeral five, the Al Zatounia 

and Illa Falistine exhibits. And I believe there are some 

more after that, Your Honor. Those are the next ones.

THE COURT: Those are the ones we will start with. 

And I don't have those. Do you have a copy of those that I 

can see? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we are going to have paper 

copies of those brought up. It may just take a few minutes. 

THE COURT: Okay. And you are seeking to introduce 

the entire documents found these newsletters? 

MR. JONAS: Honestly, we are still undecided about 

that. I think the way it stands right now, one is in its 

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entirety, and the others are just redacted versions. And I 

think the one in its entirety, we just have a translation for 

a few pages of it that we believe are relevant.

THE COURT: Which one is that one? 

MR. JONAS: I believe that is Illa Falistine No. 1. 

And then the rest are just a few pages in Arabic that match up 

with the few pages in English that we have. And I can address 

the background of this if Your Honor wishes.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

MR. JONAS: In some of the Elbarasse documents that 

have already been admitted, they discuss the role and the 

purpose of the IAP, the Islamic Association of Palestine. And 

one of the functions of that organization was to publish a 

magazine. I can't remember if it is monthly. It is 

periodically. I can't say monthly or bi-monthly, and 

specifically identifies these particular magazines these Illa 

Falistine and Al Zatounia. 

Contained within some of them are certainly ads from the 

HLF. And in one of them in particular there is a, for lack of 

a better word, a poem from the Defendant Shukri Baker that is 

an ode to Hamas. There is also an article in one of them that 

we seek to admit that talks all about Hamas, it is pro-Hamas, 

encourages people to donate to Hamas, and says to give your 

donations to the Occupied Land Fund, the predecessor to the 

HLF. 

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Clearly these magazines, if you look at the comment, are 

pro-supportive magazines of Hamas; consistent with everything 

we have seen so far, and everything we will see, about the HLF 

and the IAP, the Defendants, and the co-conspirators. 

We received these magazines from a third party. They 

weren't obtained in a search warrant. They were not obtained 

by grand jury subpoena. They were given to us by third 

parties. 

It is our position that they are self-authenticating 

under 902, I can't remember if it is (6) or (8) as 

periodicals, and that they are co-conspirator statements or 

joint venture statements made in furtherance of the 

conspiracy, so we think that they come in that way. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes, Your Honor. The third party 

they received these from we believe were the plaintiffs in the 

Boim litigation that you have heard about before. They are 

not -- They are parts of these magazines. There is one that 

is a complete magazine. The rest of those are just portions 

of them. The translations in many cases don't even include 

the whole thing. 

In other words, they will translate it, and it will say 

"caption for photo," and the photo isn't even there of a 

demolished home or whatever. 

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I mean, they are hearsay within hearsay within hearsay. 

There is no way to know what they are, who said them. They 

weren't written -- We don't know who wrote them. Even the 

story that is allegedly written by Shukri, we don't know 

whether he wrote it. We don't know who wrote the headline of 

it, because editors write things and change things. We have 

no idea of these except to know they came from the Boim 

litigation. They came in in bits and pieces, and they are 

just rank hearsay. 

THE COURT: What about the hearsay objection, then? 

You have covered authentication, but what about hearsay? 

MR. JONAS: Because these magazines that are being 

published by the IAP, which, as we have already established, 

the Defendant Shukri Baker was involved with the IAP, but also 

he acknowledged in his deposition that he was on their 

advisory board at this time. It is co-conspirator statements. 

The IAP is publishing and creating this magazine. 

With regard to the poem written by Shukri Baker, his name 

son it, and I think that goes to weight as to whether or 

not --

THE COURT: I agree with that. She has a hearsay 

objection just generally to these periodicals. And most of 

what she stated I think goes to weight, but what about the 

hearsay? 

MR. JONAS: I guess, Your Honor, it depends upon the 

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particular item that she is referring to.

THE COURT: Let's say she is applying hearsay to the 

entire periodical. 

MR. JONAS: Again, we think it is a co-conspirator 

statement that is published and created by the IAP. The 

article I referenced a moment ago, not the one that is 

authored by Shukri Baker, but the one that encourages people 

to donate to the HLF -- 

The article I mentioned a moment ago -- Well, two things. 

One, again, it is like the Elbarasse documents. It doesn't 

always matter who authored it. The content clearly indicates 

that it is someone who is part and parcel to this Palestine 

Committee and is a co-conspirator, first of all. 

Second of all, we are not offering it for the truth. The 

content is all about Hamas and support of Hamas. We are 

offering it to show this is what is going on during this time 

frame involving these Defendants, this Palestine Committee, 

these co-conspirators, of encouraging people to donate to the 

HLF to support Hamas. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, Your Honor, two things. If 

they are not offering it for the truth, it is not relevant at 

all. 

And secondly, if they are not offering it for the truth, 

the jury is never going to get that distinction, anyway. 

And third, if these things come in, they involve all 

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kinds of political issues. For example, one of them is about 

the deportees in 1992, and it talks about some of the 

detainees who came back and were detained. Well, I believe 

that they were immediately released. This is a whole 

political issue that we are going to have to get into. 

One of them talks about how the United States, even 

though it supported the resolution 799 in the U.N. condemning 

Israel, that there is a whole article about how later the 

U.S., somebody from the U.S. talked to Prime Minister Rabin 

and said, "Don't worry. We will make sure a vote doesn't come 

up." So we will have to bring that issue in. 

It raises enormous numbers of political issues we can't 

just let sit there, and that are totally irrelevant. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I don't any of that is in 

the translation.

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes, it is. It is. I mean, I read 

it last night. That whole thing about the deportees, there is 

a whole -- all kinds of political issues raised in these. 

Even the one that has the statement that is attributed to 

Shukri has another article about Hamas in it, and we don't 

know who it is. 

These were not -- There is one that they claim is an 

advertisement by Holy Land in this magazine, but the others 

are somebody in this magazine saying donate to Holy Land, and 

we have no idea who did that.

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THE COURT: I still think that goes to weight. What 

about these articles that have to do with the politics? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I honestly don't recall that 

being in there. I will accept Ms. Hollander's word at this 

moment. But may I make a suggestion? There are very few 

pages that are translated right now that we plan on offering 

into evidence in English. If we could just show them to you 

and Your Honor can make the decision if they are issues that 

you are concerned about --

THE COURT: And we can deal with that later, as long 

as they don't get to the jury. You are not planning on 

showing any of that to the jury today? 

MR. JONAS: Not today. I doubt we will get to it 

today.

THE COURT: Even when you get to them, are you 

planning on getting into those political stories that she is 

talking about?

MR. JONAS: No, sir, that is not the plan.

THE COURT: So before you get into anything like 

that, approach the bench. And I think for what you are 

offering it, I think that is permissible and I will overrule 

the objections, those objections to those articles that you 

are talking about.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, can we have a limiting 

instruction that they are not being offered for the truth? 

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THE COURT: No. I think if you are offering them as 

part of co-conspirator statements, then they do come in and 

they can be considered for the truth. And I think, frankly, 

you are offering them for the truth. You say you are not, but 

then you are saying you want to show that in fact they are 

supporting Hamas, encouraging. That sounds like you are 

offering it for the truth. I think they come in with that 

exception, through that exception.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, just with respect 

authentication, I just want to just lodge an objection based 

on the fact of I think in this day and age, in the context of 

self-publishing, that a third party giving something to the 

Government is not authentication of a published document, that 

it is what it purports to be.

THE COURT: I don't think it is the fact who gave it 

to the Government. It is the document itself that 

authenticates itself by simply looking at it. And if you tell 

it is what it purports to be -- 

MR. DRATEL: But no one can, because no one can tell 

us what an authentic version of these magazines look like. We 

have no testimony -- I realize the hurdle is not that great, 

but I think at some point -- 

THE COURT: I don't think they are required to do 

that, otherwise there wouldn't be self-authenticating. I 

think that is the purpose of having the self-authentication 

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rule is the document authenticates itself. Unless there is 

something about it that is intrinsically unreliable. And if 

it looks like it is a periodical, I am not going to find that 

the self-authentication is not permissible. 

MR. DRATEL: I just object on those grounds.

THE COURT: All right. You have your objection.

MS. HOLLANDER: So you are going to take a look at 

them, though, before --

THE COURT: I will take a look for those specific 

articles that you are objecting to. But in terms of the 

periodicals themselves, I think they are admissible for the 

purposes that Mr. Jonas has identified in terms of showing the 

link between -- Anything that has to do with the Holy Land 

Foundation, Occupied Land Fund, obviously that is admissible, 

and then having to do with Hamas, that is admissible for those 

purposes. 

If there are other articles or other reasons you want to 

get into those, you would need to approach the bench before 

you get into those in front of the jury, Mr. Jonas. 

Ms. Moreno?

MS. MORENO: Good morning, Your Honor. 

I was trying to keep up over there. I may not have. On 

the HLF/InfoCom search documents category, has the Court ruled 

on those? 

THE COURT: I don't know that I specifically did. I 

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think I stated the search and the wiretaps. Do you have 

objections to those, other than the general hearsay and the 

timing? 

MS. MORENO: I do have a very strong hearsay 

objection. And if the Court would look on page 14, footnote 

10, the Court will see the kinds of articles that the 

Government readily admits it wants to -- it offered for the 

truth of its contents. And if they are not going to do that 

today, I can go more specifically at a later time into the 

specific objections with respect to these newspaper articles. 

But these are clearly hearsay.

THE COURT: What about these newspaper articles? 

MR. JONAS: I don't think we readily admitted that 

we are offering them for the truth. In the fact, quite to the 

contrary. These were articles that were found in either HLF 

or InfoCom, and in many instances -- Not all, but in some 

instances they relate to conversations that the Defendants 

had. They are offered to show the Defendants' state of mind. 

In other words, there is a call between two of the 

Defendants discussing one of the articles, and then we found 

the article at HLF or InfoCom. I think it is perfectly proper 

for us to introduce that article so the jury can see that this 

is what they are talking about.

THE COURT: She listed four articles there. 

MR. JONAS: Off the top of my head, I honestly don't 

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know which article goes to which issue I just addressed, and I 

apologize for that. I think generally they are for the state 

of mind of the Defendants. 

Some of them are for the conversations. Some of them 

just were found, for example, in Ghassan Elashi's office. It 

goes to show his knowledge, what he has been made aware of 

that is going on with Hamas and some of the Hamas leaders. So 

it is a state of mind issue. It is not a truth issue.

THE COURT: And I have not looked at those 

particular documents. 

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, if he is offering it for a 

state of mind, that is an exception to hearsay. I mean, it is 

a hearsay document. And I believe if the Court looks at those 

articles particularly, and allows me to argue further -- 

Unless they are getting into it this morning. Are you? 

MR. JONAS: There may be one article we are getting 

into this morning.

THE COURT: Which one is that one?

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, may I raise another issue 

that is related, and that is that my client was not an 

employee or board member of Holy Land, and so what I am 

concerned about is these things that are found on Holy Land 

premises that are being offered to show the Defendants' state 

of mind, without some evidence that he had any connection to 

that document, or exhibit, I believe I am entitled to a 

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limiting instruction.

THE COURT: Let me finish ruling on this. That is a 

valid point, but we need to come back to that. 

Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: I am checking my order of exhibits for 

this morning, and I haven't seen any that will be addressed 

this morning.

THE COURT: This morning? 

MR. JONAS: This morning. So if I am incorrect, I 

will ask for a sidebar.

THE COURT: Approach the bench. And then if you get 

into any this afternoon, be sure to let us know sometime 

before we break for lunch so I can look at them over the lunch 

hour, and I will take a look at them.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor -- 

THE COURT: Are you back on these newspaper 

articles, or something else? 

MR. WESTFALL: Just one very short thing on the 

newspaper article. 

Particularly on the Judith Miller article, that was an 

exhibit that Judge Fish actually kept out. Please read it. 

She has been very discredited as an author apparently some 

time ago. And the article has some very serious 403 

implications on top of the hearsay, and the fact that they are 

offering it for the truth, Your Honor. 

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MS. MORENO: That is specifically the article I 

wanted to address with Your Honor. I think you need to read 

the article.

THE COURT: And I plan on it. I just haven't done 

it yet. But you are saying you are not offering it for the 

truth, these particular articles.

MR. JONAS: In fact, that particular article, if it 

is the one I am thinking of, the Defendants in this 

Philadelphia meeting that we are going to get to at some point 

today, the participants in this Philadelphia meeting, because 

I can't recall exactly who said it, but I think maybe the 

Defendant Shukri Baker made this comment at least once, talk 

about them being exposed, and exposed publicly. They use the 

word marked or stamped. This Judith Miller article is what we 

are going to offer to show this is what they are referring to 

is them being marked or stamped as Hamas. 

So it is not being offered for the truth. It is being 

offered to show this is what they mean when they say they are 

being marked or stamped. And it was found in the HLF.

THE COURT: All right. I will take a look at that 

article. We will come back to that. 

Anything else on the newspaper articles? 

MS. CADEDDU: Just re-raising my objections about 

the state of mind issues.

THE COURT: On the newspaper? 

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MS. CADEDDU: In other words, that is being offered 

to show the Defendants state of mind.

THE COURT: I was going to get to yours in a minute. 

I am trying to finish up the newspaper --

MS. CADEDDU: I don't want to waive anything, Judge. 

THE COURT: Just hold on. 

Anything else on the newspaper articles, as far as their 

admissibility? 

Marlo, your turn. I think I have your objection. 

Mr. Jonas, do you want to respond? 

MR. JONAS: I am not quite sure -- 

THE COURT: She says he was never an officer or 

board director member of HLF, and you have these documents 

that you are going to show state of mind of these HLF member 

Defendants, whether they are officers or board of directors, 

they are connected more directly to HLF. And she is concerned 

if he is not an officer or director or board member -- Did I 

get it right? 

MS. CADEDDU: Yes. Or an employee, and he had no 

office, and he wasn't there. And something that is found on 

the HLF premises, unless they have some evidence to show that 

he was aware of it, I don't know that that can go to his state 

of mind, so I ask for a limiting instruction.

MR. JONAS: I am not quite sure -- I don't believe 

that the co-conspirator joint venture requirement goes to 

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whether you are an officer or director. It is whether you are 

a member of the joint venture. So the issue is whether or not 

the jury finds him to be a member of the joint venture. 

We are going to establish, using as an example this New 

York Times article, that the Defendant Mufid Abdulqader was at 

the Philadelphia meeting. And that is where they discuss 

being stamped or marked. I believe it goes to weight. 

If Ms. Cadeddu wants to argue that he was not that 

associated with the HLF and he wasn't aware of these issues, 

let her argue.

THE COURT: She is really not arguing that it is not 

admissible. She is trying to get a limiting instruction as 

to -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Let me be specific, Judge. There are 

some that the Government is offering as co-conspirator 

statements, and I don't think I am entitled to a limiting 

instruction as to that. But when the Government is offering 

something not as a co-conspirator statement, like these 

newspaper articles that are being offered for state of mind, I 

think they need some connection to my client in order to be 

able to show that --

THE COURT: That is the point -- 

MR. DRATEL: Or any specific Defendant, Your Honor, 

who is not in Dallas, because my client is in New Jersey and 

then in San Diego. So if it is found in somebody's desk in 

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Dallas, I don't see how that applies to his state of mind, 

unless they are connected in some way.

MS. CADEDDU: We are distinguishing that from the 

co-conspirator statements, Your Honor. 

MR. DRATEL: That are not offering the newspaper 

article as a co-conspirator statement, a New York Times

article.

THE COURT: He says they are not offering it for the 

truth, but to show state of mind.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I don't have so much of an 

issue if there is an instruction that this could be viewed by 

the jury for the Defendants' state of mind for those 

Defendants that may be aware of them. 

In other words, this particular newspaper article from 

the New York Times that I say relates to the conversation at 

the Philadelphia meeting, well, the Defendant Mufid Abdulqader 

was in the Philadelphia meeting, so I don't think we can cut 

him out from that. 

Newspaper articles that are found in the desk or the 

office of Ghassan Elashi that we are offering to show his 

state of mind, I agree. Give a limiting instruction. That 

should be held against Defendant Ghassan Elashi alone. 

But I just want to make sure that we are not making a 

general instruction that applies to all exhibits when there 

shouldn't be. 

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MS. MORENO: And Your Honor, the article in question 

is February of 1993. February of '93 is in the footnote that 

I oriented the Court to.

THE COURT: I see that.

MS. MORENO: The Philadelphia meeting is eight 

months later in October of 1993. It is a stretch to say that 

eight months later these gentlemen are talking about, without 

naming the article, without naming Judith Miller, that when 

they are talking -- whatever conversation they are having, 

they are referring to this article. So I think that the time 

is also something that the Court should focus on.

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. CADEDDU: Well, and I also -- Mr. Jonas keeps 

saying that Mr. Abdulqader was at the Philadelphia meeting. 

We are going to contest that rather vigorously. He was not at 

that meeting. The translator who testified that he was there 

said he was 80 percent sure, but he wasn't positive so he 

didn't put his name on it. I mean, this is a huge issue. 

This is the first time I have ever heard that testimony. That 

did not happen at the first trial. 

So, you know, Mr. Jonas can claim that he was at the 

Philadelphia meeting. I know he wasn't. And that is going to 

be a huge bone of contention. I wanted to make sure the Court 

didn't take that as a given.

MR. DRATEL: And it has been conceded by the 

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Government that Mr. El-Mezain was not present at the 

Philadelphia meeting. 

MR. JONAS: I am not sure there is anything I have 

to add on that. We are just going round and round.

THE COURT: And we are not to the newspaper articles 

yet. It appears that you are willing to limit -- agree to 

some limiting instruction as to at least Mr. El-Mezain who 

wasn't there, or the newspaper articles that were found. Mr. 

Jacks is shaking his head no. It doesn't sound like you are 

in agreement to that.

MR. JACKS: Judge, I think the newspaper article is 

relevant to show knowledge. The fact that they had it, you 

can infer that they saw it when it came out and they kept it 

for a reason.

THE COURT: But you are saying they and -- 

MR. JACKS: I understand.

THE COURT: The specific objection is like if one 

was found in the desk of one of the Defendants.

MR. JACKS: And I think it is reasonable to infer if 

one member of the conspiracy saw it and read it, that it was 

conveyed to the others.

THE COURT: So you are not willing to concede a 

limiting instruction, then.

MR. JACKS: No. Because they do in fact have 

conversations later where they talk about these articles. And 

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that proves the point that the fact that these articles are 

found in the possession of one of the co-conspirators, and the 

evidence shows that they talk about these articles among 

themselves, that the knowledge that it conveys to one 

co-conspirator, it is permissible to infer that other 

co-conspirators were made aware of those articles. Plus the 

fact that it is in the New York Times. That is a pretty 

widely circulated newspaper. 

So the fact that these articles are imputed to show 

knowledge, I don't think you can cut it off and say that these 

other co-conspirators, therefore, didn't have any knowledge. 

I think that is a matter for the jury to discuss and to weigh 

and to decide. 

MS. CADEDDU: Well, and Your Honor, again, when you 

are offering it as a co-conspirator statement it is one thing. 

When you are offering it to show state of mind, you need to 

show that there is a connection to show state of mind. 

And I also want to express a concern about this 

monolithic "they." The Government is not going to offer any 

conversations by my client where he talks about any of these 

articles. There are two conversations they are offering. 

Both have to do with fundraising, volunteer fundraising trips 

that he took. 

So, you know, I don't want to get swallowed up into this 

monolithic "they," because there isn't any evidence of that. 

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It is not appropriate.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, can I just make sure 

that we raised a 403 argument, because what I believe the 

reason the Government wants to introduce particularly the 

Judith Miller article is that it has a lot of information 

about someone who was arrested in Israel that they are going 

to try to link -- And the jury cannot decipher what is true 

and what isn't. And the unfair prejudicial effect of these 

newspaper articles, particularly that one, seriously outweighs 

any probative value it has, and I think you will see that when 

you read it.

THE COURT: All right. 

Mr. Cline? 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, one other limiting 

instruction issue with the newspaper articles. Of course, we 

object to their coming in at all on hearsay and 403 grounds, 

and so on. 

If they do come in to show notice or knowledge or 

something like that, we would ask that the jury be instructed 

that they are not being admitted for the truth, but solely for 

whatever purpose Your Honor decides to admit them.

MR. DRATEL: And Your Honor, I think Mr. Jacks' 

construction of the law of inference is actually in reverse of 

what it ought to be. You don't get an omnibus inference that 

the Defense essentially has to disprove; that the Government 

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has to connect evidence in order to make evidence reasonable.

THE COURT: Okay. And I may need you to be more 

specific at some point, Mr. Jacks, when you get to it. You 

say there are phone conversations, so that is some evidence 

that would with a link. But I think you need some specific as 

to who are the parties to those phone conversations. And I 

think that is the point Ms. Cadeddu makes is that her client 

is not going to be involved in any of those conversations, so 

you are trying to impute knowledge to him.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I will find out and make 

that known to the Court which exhibits include those 

conversations.

THE COURT: And who the parties are that are 

discussing those articles? 

Is the jury here? 

Was there anything else on the HLF and InfoCom search 

documents that we needed to address, besides those newspaper 

articles? Ms. Moreno or anyone else? 

MS. MORENO: Not at this point, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Those, then, the remainder of those are 

admitted pursuant to the earlier rulings. 

Anything else we need to address? 

We will be in recess until we get the jury -- 

MR. DRATEL: The first part of the El-Mezain 

documents really has to do with collateral estoppel. But the 

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second part, there is one specific conversation. I don't know 

if the Court wants to hear argument on that. I don't know the 

time of when you think you are going to get to that, this 

morning, or -- 

MR. JONAS: I don't know what conversation you are 

referring to.

MR. DRATEL: No. 27 or 12, however you denominate 

it.

MR. JONAS: That won't be this morning.

THE COURT: What was the issue with that one?

MR. DRATEL: This was a conversation that -- Well, 

we have a number of objections--403, collateral estoppel. I 

think the collateral estoppel aspect of this is -- 

THE COURT: And do you know right off which 

particular exhibit that is? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes. It is El-Mezain Wiretap No. 27, 

but also may be called No. 12. 

MR. JONAS: It is not 27. 

MR. DRATEL: No. 27 is the entire conversation.

MR. JONAS: No. 27 is a misprint. It is No. 12. 

MR. DRATEL: So it is 12. El-Mezain Wiretap No. 12.

THE COURT: And I have No. 27 also listed. So that 

should be No. 12? 

MR. JONAS: No. 12, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right. And then your particular 

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objection on that.

MR. DRATEL: Mr. El-Mezain has been acquitted of all 

money laundering charges, and that is the inference the 

Government wishes to draw from that conversation, which is 

totally separate. It also raises the prospect of prejudicial 

variance, and even ultimately perhaps an amendment in the 

indictment because the specific allegations of money 

laundering in this indictment, which Mr. El-Mezain has been 

acquitted of, Mr. Odeh is part of that conversation as well. 

So I am sort of making that argument at the same time, which 

is that the money laundering is alleged to have been the 

payments by HLF to the institutions overseas. This gets into 

a totally separate issue which essentially could create 

another theory for the Government to argue money laundering, 

which wouldn't be proper, which is the notion of deposit 

structuring, which has nothing to do with the concealment that 

the Government is alleging or the transfers that the 

Government is alleging, which has to do with where it is 

going, not where it is coming from. 

So it is completely outside the box of what these charges 

are, and creates a real danger of the jury being misled and 

confused.

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Mr. Dratel's theory of our offer of 

proof is wrong. This is a conversation between the Defendants 

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Mohammad El-Mezain and Abdulrahman Odeh that occurred about a 

month or so after Hamas was designated initially as a 

terrorist organization. They talk about structuring the 

deposits of HLF's cash into the HLF bank account. They 

mention about how the accounts are being watched. 

It is our position that they intend on structuring, or 

El-Mezain instructing Odeh to structure in order to conceal 

from the government the fact that they are receiving all this 

money. It is not a matter of the money laundering charges and 

where it is going to. It is a matter of how they are 

depositing their cash into their accounts right after Hamas is 

designated, and their belief that their accounts are being 

watched. 

MR. DRATEL: But, Your Honor, that is -- It is not 

what the conversation says in toto. But also it is exactly 

what I am saying. They are alleging a separate money 

laundering mechanism, which is not charged, which is not what 

this case is about. This case is about where the money went 

to. The notion of some concealment of where the money is 

coming from, in other words, that contributions and their 

amounts, has nothing to do with this case or the charges. 

The other thing is that the reference in the calls is 

that this is the way that this has always been done; that it 

has been a practice to break these up. And the Supreme Court 

case cited in our papers says you not only have to have an 

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intent to circumvent the reporting requirement, but have to 

know it is illegal. There is nothing in the conversation that 

would suggest that. So in that context it is not even really 

a bad act. It doesn't even constitute it, but it is being 

used for that inference, I think, in a way that would run 

afoul of 403, as well at the collateral estoppel. 

They are talking about charges that Mr. El-Mezain has 

been acquitted on, not only with respect to collateral 

estoppel but also with respect to double jeopardy, because in 

effect they are trying to get him convicted on the basis of 

charges that he was already acquitted on.

THE COURT: I understand the argument. 

Anything else you want to add? 

MR. JONAS: Briefly, this is for concealment 

purposes. It goes to in total their actions in order to keep 

away from the government, which is consistent with other 

things they have done with the government--their behavior, 

their connection to Hamas, all of that.

THE COURT: I think it could go to show knowledge. 

But I haven't read the conversation. I will go back and take 

a look at that. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, just one quick point. We 

have not received from Defense the exhibits they intend on 

showing to Agent Burns. I am not sure when we are going to 

get that. I am assuming it is closer to the time she is off 

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the stand. We may need another session like this.

THE COURT: I suspect we will need more than one. 

We may do another one this afternoon, and then another one in 

the morning if we need to, or at some point before we get to 

the documents.

When do you expect -- Of course, I guess she will be on 

direct for a number of days. 

MR. JONAS: It is possible she could be off direct 

by tomorrow the end of the day.

THE COURT: All right. Well, then, at some point if 

you will make sure you give your list of exhibits, then, to 

the Government so we can take those up, whether it be this 

afternoon or tomorrow morning. 

Anything else? The jury is here. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I don't believe we can 

give ours to the Government until we are finished with direct. 

We are not going to be able to give them our cross 

examination. We will give them to them as soon as she is off 

direct.

THE COURT: And why do you think you can't do that? 

MS. HOLLANDER: For a number of reasons. One is we 

are not sure what they are until she finishes her direct. 

Another is if we give them our exhibits -- You know, the 

witness isn't supposed to know what you are doing on cross, 

nor is the Government really, but certainly the witness is 

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not. And if we give them to them now, they just basically get 

an advantage of incorporating whatever it is that -- kind of 

getting a telescope of the cross. 

We can do it, and we thought we were doing it the same 

way we did it during the first trial, which is that as soon as 

they finish their direct --

THE COURT: Except we have already had a trial here, 

so I didn't see there was a big surprise.

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, I think there may be some 

different exhibits. They may be exhibits being used 

differently. They are using exhibits differently.

THE COURT: But they are giving you notice.

MS. HOLLANDER: And they are using new exhibits.

THE COURT: Yes, but they are giving you notice.

MS. HOLLANDER: They are giving us notice, and we 

will give them notice as soon as she finishes direct, on the 

condition that they not show them to the witness, of course. 

THE COURT: That is fine. But if they are not going 

to show them to the witness, then I don't see any reason why 

you can't give them to them sooner than that so that they can 

prepare their objections and we can have these hearings.

MS. HOLLANDER: If we know what they are. 

THE COURT: And I can't accept that, counsel. I 

can't accept that you haven't prepared your case sufficiently 

to where you have some idea what your cross is going to be. I 

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know you don't start planning your cross after she testifies.

MS. HOLLANDER: We have some idea.

THE COURT: Of course.

MS. HOLLANDER: And I think that they know about.

THE COURT: They don't know that if you haven't told 

them, anymore than you knew exactly what they were going to 

put on unless they tell you. You have some idea from the last 

trial, but they don't know. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, obviously we will do 

what you require us to do.

THE COURT: That is what I am requiring you to do.

MS. HOLLANDER: But I think that it is really, 

frankly, from our perspective -- And I will let -- Ms. Moreno 

wishes to address that. 

THE COURT: We will address that later. The jury is 

already here. We will get started. 

Mr. Dratel, is there something else?

MR. DRATEL: There is something I would like to 

approach on for reasons that Your Honor will understand when I 

approach. It will take one minute.

THE COURT: Approach the bench. 

(The following was had at the bench.)

MR. DRATEL: I didn't want a conference already this 

morning. 

THE COURT: I didn't either.

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MR. DRATEL: Now I see the courtroom filling up, so 

I just wanted to raise this here for obvious reasons. 

The Court indicated, and I don't know whether the Court 

-- Thursday afternoon when we broke, the Court -- And I don't 

know whether you were talking about this case or other matters 

on the Court's docket when you said something about getting 

stuff done Wednesday, which is the day that we are off.

THE COURT: That wasn't this conference that we held 

this morning, but these kinds of conferences.

MR. DRATEL: Right. But regardless of how much 

progress is made in the next two days with respect these types 

of issues, I would object to proceeding Wednesday under any 

circumstances in the case because I am -- It is a religious 

holiday for myself, for my client, and I don't think he should 

be disadvantaged by our exercise of religious freedom, and I 

just sort of register a formal objection to proceeding 

tomorrow. 

THE COURT: You said one minute. 

MR. DRATEL: Okay. 

THE COURT: You are overruled. 

(The following was had in open court.) 

THE COURT: Bring in the jury.

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed. 

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Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Good morning, Agent Burns. 

A. Good morning. 

Q. Before we move to the next subject matter, I just wanted 

to briefly go over some of the questions and answers that we 

had on Thursday just to clarify some things. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. We discussed a document Elbarasse Search No. 8. Do you 

recall that document?

A. I do. If you will give me one second. I have it.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull Elbarasse Search No. 8 on 

the screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) You had me at a disadvantage because I 

don't have the exhibits with me. There are a lot of exhibits 

we are going to go through today, so I didn't bother bringing 

binders up like you have there. 

In particular, this document discusses a trip taken by 

the Defendant Shukri Baker to the West Bank and Gaza. Can you 

tell us which page number that discussion is on.

A. That is on page 6, paragraph C. 

Q. This discusses him going to the inside. And what is the 

inside again?

A. Inside the Palestinian territories in Israel.

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Q. We also discussed a report of the trip which was marked 

as InfoCom Search No. 51. Do you recall that document?

A. I do.

Q. And we don't need to pull that one up. Who authored 

InfoCom Search No. 51?

A. If you give me one second. 

Q. Sure. 

A. This was a report from Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. And does that reference the trip that was discussed in 

Elbarasse Search No. 8?

A. It does.

Q. And there is also another report of a trip that was 

marked or in evidence as Ashqar Search No. 2. Do you recall 

that document?

A. I do.

Q. Do you know who authored that document?

A. I do not know who authored that document.

Q. Does that document relate in any way to the report 

authored by the Defendant Shukri Baker in InfoCom Search 

No. 51?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. How does it relate, based upon the exhibits you reviewed?

A. This document, the one we are referring to now, which is 

Ashqar Search No. 2, is a report of a trip in 1991 to the 

Palestinian territories by someone -- based on the content, by 

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someone within the Palestinian Committee. They were reporting 

on Hamas activities in the territories. 

In that document, if you will turn to page 11 -- 

Q. Which exhibit is this? InfoCom Search No. 51?

A. Ashqar Search No. 2. 

MR. JONAS: Ashqar Search No. 2, page 11. 

THE WITNESS: Under Section K, the individual who 

wrote this is reporting on activities in the Gaza area, which 

is in the Palestinian territories. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And that is reflected in this document, 

the Gaza Sector?

A. Yes. At the top you will see where it says the south 

region and refers to the Gaza Sector. And throughout this it 

refers to the Movement, which is Hamas. 

And under Section K, at the bottom if you will look, it 

says, "The brothers asked Dr. Al-Zahar to open a center for 

studies and research, and he approved that." Doctor Al-Zahar, 

as we identified last week, is Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahar.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, for the record I am going to 

hold up Demonstrative No. 17. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And he is here on this chart here?

A. The closest to you.

Q. Where I am pointing?

A. Yes. So this document is reporting that the brothers met 

with that individual to discuss opening a center for studies 

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and research. This document is based on a trip in 1991. 

If you will turn back to Shukri Abu Baker's report from 

1991 and turn to -- that exhibit number is InfoCom Search 

No. 51. If you will turn to page 11 under "Gaza," Shukri Abu 

Baker reported that he met with Mr. Abu Khalid, Abu Nasser, 

and some other officials. They discussed with Mr. Abu Khalid 

the subject of building a research organization. Abu Khalid 

is the nickname for Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar. 

So the way I connected these two reports is that the 

individual who wrote Ashqar No. 2, the Hamas report, the 

Palestinian Committee member was actually reporting on Shukri 

Abu Baker's meeting with Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, if you recall, when you testified on 

Thursday I showed you Hamas Charter No. 2, which is in 

evidence, and that is the Arabic version of the Hamas charter. 

Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Who published that document?

A. The IAP.

Q. Did you find -- Where was that document found, if you 

recall?

A. That one was found at the home of Ismail Elbarasse.

Q. Do you have before you Hamas Charter No. 1, which is not 

in evidence?

A. I do not have the Hamas charters here.

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MR. JONAS: Your Honor, one moment, please?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am referring to Hamas Charter No. 3. 

MR. JONAS: And if I may approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where was that document found?

A. This document was found at the home of Ismail Elbarasse.

Q. And without going into the contents, what is it?

A. It is the English version of the Hamas charter.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Hamas Charter No. 3. 

THE COURT: Any objections beyond what we have had? 

That is admitted.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, you testified based upon the 

Elbarasse search documents about a relationship between the 

Holy Land Foundation the Islamic Association of Palestine. 

Just to go back to that, what was the relationship between 

those two organizations, from the Elbarasse search documents?

A. Based on all the exhibits that we reviewed last week, 

they were members of the Palestine Committee whose job it was 

to support Hamas, according to the 1992 memorandum from the 

international Muslim Brotherhood.

MR. JONAS: And if we can quickly pull up Elbarasse 

Search No. 10 on the screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see the HLF and IAP on this chart?

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A. I do.

Q. And does that support your statement about what you made 

about the relationship between the HLF and the IAP?

A. It does. As we discussed on Thursday, the Central 

Committee was the Palestine Committee.

Q. Have you reviewed the Baker deposition that we discussed 

the other day?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And in the Baker deposition does the Defendant Shukri 

Baker discuss the relationship between the HLF and the IAP?

A. He is asked about it.

MR. JONAS: If we can put page 5 of that deposition 

on the screen. If we can enlarge it. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see where it says -- 

MR. JONAS: One moment, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you have deposition page 

64 and 65 in front of you?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: We are trying to get it on the screen, 

Your Honor. I think because it is a Monday morning the 

computer is a little groggy. 

And if you can enlarge the right hand column. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you read the question and the answer 

regarding the relationship between the HLF and the IAP?

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A. I can. The question that the lawyer asked is, "Now, you 

understand" --

Q. Agent Burns, let me provide you my copy. 

A. I will read it off the screen. "Are you aware of any 

relationship or affiliation of any sort between that entity 

IAP and HLF?" 

Shukri Abu Baker's answer is, "No affiliation. But what 

do you mean by relationship? Can you itemize that?" 

And the question, "Well, did you undertake any programs 

together, work together in -- in any fashion?" 

Answer: "We had a business relationship with the IAP." 

Question: "Okay. Can you describe for me in general 

terms the nature of that business relationship?" 

Answer: "We advertised with their paper, and we used 

their graphic design services. There were invoices for that, 

and we had a contract to help us through their grass roots 

volunteers, help the Foundation through its grass root and 

volunteers to help dispense Holy Land Foundation literature 

and fund raising material." 

Question: "I've seen some indication that -- somewhere 

that indicated that you were a member of an IAP advisory 

board." 

Answer: "Yes." 

Question: "What was -- What was the advisory board?" 

Answer: "You know, we would meet once a year, just 

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discuss overall issues, strategies."

Q. That is fine. Agent Burns, has Shukri Baker discussed 

the HLF and IAP being part of the Palestine Committee in his 

deposition?

A. No, he does snot.

Q. Was the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain also deposed in the 

same lawsuit?

A. He was.

Q. And do you have his deposition before you?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time, subject to the 

discussion prior, I would offer into evidence the Defendant 

Mohammad El-Mezain's deposition. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, based on what Mr. Jonas is 

doing now, and subject to the other previous objections -- 

THE COURT: Give me that exhibit number again. 

MR. JONAS: The exhibit is Exhibit El-Mezain 

deposition is the title of the exhibit.

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, could you turn to page 25? 

It is deposition page 25. 

A. Okay.

MR. JONAS: I believe for purposes of putting it on 

the screen, it is page 5. If you could enlarge the top left 

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hand corner.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Starting with the question on line 2. 

THE COURT: Counsel, what are the dates of these 

depositions? Has that been established? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) For the record, the date of this 

deposition is what, Agent Burns?

A. The date of this deposition is September 10th, 2003.

Q. And the date of the Baker deposition?

A. January 30th, 2003.

Q. Okay. If you can read this page, please. 

A. It says -- Mohammad El-Mezain's answer is, "You're 

right." Question: "The MAYA conferences that you're 

referring to, do you recall where those were held?"

Answer: "I Don't recall exactly what one of them." 

Question: "Do you recall where whether any of them were 

in Kansas City?"

Answer: "I don't recall." 

Question: "The MAYA conferences where you met Mr. Ahmad 

was either one of you a speaker at the conference?" 

Answer: "No." 

Question: "No? Have you had any personal dealings with 

Mr. Ahmad outside of the MAYA conferences --" 

Answer: "No." 

Question "-- you testified about."

Q. Let me interrupt you for a moment. Based upon Elbarasse 

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Search No. 10, is that the document that listed out the 

members of the Palestine Committee?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is Mr. Ahmad?

A. Ahmed Yousef.

Q. Continue please. And is Ahmad Yousef one of the 

individuals listed in the Palestine Committee document?

A. He is. You will see him referenced both as Ahmed Yousef 

and Yousef Saleh.

Q. Is the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain also listed as a 

members of the Palestine Committee on that document?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. Please continue reading. 

A. Question: "Do you know a man by the name of Ismail 

Elbarasse?" 

Answer: "Yes." 

Question: "How is it you know Mr. Elbarasse?" 

Answer: "One of the MAYA conferences also." 

Question: "Do you recall where that MAYA conference was 

held?"

Answer: "I don't know. MAYA conferences, years, too 

long." 

Question: "Do you recall roughly what the time frame was 

you met Mr. Elbarasse at a MAYA conference?" 

Answer: "Is in the eighties." 

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Question: "How about Mr. Omar Ahmad? Can you tell me 

the time frame?" 

Answer: "It is in the eighties." 

Question: "So you met both of these gentlemen at MAYA 

conferences in the eighties?" 

Answer: "Yeah." 

And excuse me. I was referring to another part of the 

deposition. When he said Mr. Ahmad, he was referring to Mr. 

Omar Amhad not Ahmed Yousef.

Q. Who is Omar Ahmad?

A. He was a member of the IAP, also a member of the 

Palestine Committee.

Q. Is he on the same list of the Defendant El-Mezain in 

Elbarasse Search No. 10?

A. Yes, he. 

Q. Agent Burns, was the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain 

questioned about the relationship between the HLF and the IAP 

in his deposition?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. If you can turn to deposition page 87. 

MR. JONAS: Which I believe is page 8 for the 

purposes of pulling it up on the screen. No, I was wrong. 

Take that down. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, just read on deposition page 

87 line 15 where the Defendant El-Mezain discusses a 

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relationship between the HLF and IAP. 

A. Give me one second to see where it begins.

Q. Line 15 on page 87. 

A. Okay. The question is, "Do you know of any relationship 

or dealings that any of you principals of the Holy Land 

Foundation had with the Islamic Association for Palestine in 

January of 1989 that would have caused IAP to know about the 

Occupied Land Fund and what it was doing?" 

Answer: "No. Actually we -- You asked me before about 

the people of IAP, and I said to you we know these people but 

we don't have any relation with them, and they know that we 

have established Occupied Land Fund in that time. Not only 

the IAP actually, it became like, let me see, a custom with 

the Muslim organizations to recommend a good organization for 

the good cause."

Q. Again, Elbarasse Search No. 10, what does that document 

indicate the relationship between the IAP and HLF is?

A. That they were both organizations within the Palestine 

Committee working together.

MS. MORENO: Excuse me, Your Honor. I apologize for 

interrupting. With respect to both the Baker deposition and 

the El-Mezain deposition, we would ask on behalf of Mr. Elashi 

for a limiting instruction to the jury. 

THE COURT: And we will come back to that later. 

Go ahead.

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, were there any -- Withdrawn. 

In the Elbarasse search documents, do you recall there being 

discussions about there being Palestine committees in other 

countries?

A. I do.

Q. Was there one document that discussed any of the 

Defendants traveling to another country in order to help 

establish the Palestine Committee?

A. Yes. That Occupied Land Fund report we discussed 

earlier.

Q. And what did that say, if you recall? If not, we can 

pull the exhibit up on the screen. And we discussed that on 

Thursday. Correct?

A. We did. And I have the exhibit here and I can tell you 

what it says. It was Elbarasse Search No. 8. And under that 

page 6 -- Do you --

MR. JONAS: If we can put it on the screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Which exhibit is this?

A. Elbarasse Search No. 8, page 6. No. 8 at the bottom 

under the Central Committee for charity work, it says, 

"Brother Ghassan," which is the Defendant Ghassan Elashi, "is 

currently on a visit to Britain representing the Fund in order 

to study the possibility of forming a Central Committee for 

charity work affiliated with the Apparatus in all the 

countries with the goal of coordination, exchange of 

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experience, and finding the best ways to increase donations, 

and to quickly respond to the request of the people inside."

MS. HOLLANDER: Excuse me. Your Honor, I am just 

going to object to just repeating testimony here that the jury 

already heard on Friday, and object to repeating the 

testimony, exactly the same testimony.

THE COURT: Overrule the objection. He is 

connecting it to a new exhibit. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, were there any phone 

conversations involving the Defendants where they discussed 

the Palestine Committee in another country?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have before you HLF Wiretap No. 2? I know you 

have several binders you need to look through. 

A. If you will bear with me. I have it.

Q. Okay. Who are the participants on that call?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker, Akram Mishal.

Q. Who is Akram Mishal?

A. He was an HLF officer. And Ramsey Abu Baker.

Q. What is the date of the call?

A. June 25th, 2001.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence HLF Wiretap No. 2.

THE COURT: And those have been admitted. Those 

ones we admitted this morning. Are you also offering 2-A? 

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MR. JONAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I don't want to play the 

whole call now. I think there are going to be portions that 

we will address later on. But if you can turn to page 4 of 

that transcript of HLF Wiretap No. 2. 

Agent Burns, do you see the line where it starts "AK"? 

A. I do.

Q. Who is that?

A. That is Akram Mishal, the HLF officer.

Q. And where it says "SH" underneath that, who is that?

A. That is Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Okay. 

A. The Defendant.

Q. I just want you to read this page and then some of the 

next page, if you would, please?

A. Okay. Akram Mishal says, "Hello." 

Shukri says, "Peace be upon you." 

"Upon you be peace."

"How are you?"

"Praise be to God. What's new?"

"Good."

"This guy, a person named Mahmoud Ghazal called me from 

Jeddah. Who is he?"

Akram Mishal says, "I believe he's from the Palestine 

Committee."

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"Hmm."

"When did he call you? Today? 

"He left me a message today."

"Where? At home or --"

"No, on the -- At the foundation."

Q. And the top of the next page. 

A. "Strange. Its possible that he left it and someone 

transferred it to you."

"Hmm."

"Yes, yes. Maybe I called him or I sent him a fax."

"Yes. They are from the Palestine Committee in the world 

assembly."

"Yes, yes."

"Uh-huh."

"Okay. Call him and see what he wants. I wanted to --"

Q. That is good enough. That is fine. 

Agent Burns, I want to move away to another subject, and 

I want to talk to you about the HLF money in the early years 

of the Holy Land Foundation's life. Okay? 

Do you recall some of the Elbarasse documents talked 

about how much Holy Land Foundation raised in those early 

years and sent over to the West Bank and Gaza?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you review any records that talk about how much money 

was sent over to those areas?

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A. I did.

Q. And I don't want to be that specific. I am just talking 

about any money that they sent out from their bank accounts at 

all.

A. Yes. I reviewed their bank account records from the bank 

account they held at NAIT.

Q. Did you review other records as well?

A. I did. I reviewed search warrant material, things like 

that.

Q. Generally, without getting into the description of 

specific items, can you just summarize what you reviewed, what 

it revealed?

A. Are you talking about a specific year or --

Q. 1988. 

A. 1988. The financial documents from the bank accounts and 

the search warrant material, actually from the bank account I 

think pretty much solely, indicated that a majority of the 

HLF's money during that year was distributed to Mousa Abu 

Marzook, his associates, and other individuals and entities 

that were part of the Palestine Committee.

Q. Did you create a chart that summarizes these 

transactions?

A. I did.

Q. Do you have before you what has been marked as OLF 1988 

Disbursements?

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A. I do.

Q. Is this chart based upon documents currently in evidence?

A. Yes.

Q. Would this chart aid the jury in understanding your 

testimony?

A. Yes, it will.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence OLF 1988 Disbursements. 

MS. HOLLANDER: We have no objection, assuming it is 

accurate, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Actually I do have one objection 

which is remoteness, 1988.

THE COURT: That is overruled.

MS. CADEDDU: Is this a demonstrative?

THE COURT: No, ma'am. They are offering it -- 

MR. JONAS: As a 1006 summary chart.

THE COURT: OLF 1988 is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: Can we put the first page on the screen, 

please?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, before we get into the 

substance of the transactions, I would like you just to 

explain to us how this chart is constructed. 

A. Okay. The chart is constructed hopefully to make it easy 

to understand this mountain of bank records that we have. 

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The first column includes the date of the transaction. 

The next column indicates the source, where the payment in 

that transaction came from. In this chart in particular, all 

of the payments came from the Holy Land Foundation when it was 

known as the Occupied Land Fund.

Q. Let me interrupt you as you go along. It says underneath 

the Occupied Land Fund "North America Islamic Trust." What is 

that?

A. That is NAIT, the Muslim Brotherhood organization that we 

spoke about last week, and that is the entity through which 

the HLF held its initial bank account.

Q. Okay. Continue. 

A. Under the next section which is entitled "Authorization," 

on this chart it merely indicates whether or not the 

transaction was done with a wire transfer or a check or 

whether there was an expense voucher, and if on a particular 

transaction an individual was linked to the transaction. For 

example, if the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker requested the 

transfer, his name will appear in this column as well.

The next column is the amount of the transaction. The 

following column is the destination. That is to whom the 

payment was made. And finally, the last column is the column 

for exhibit number, which tells you the exhibit number and 

specific page that you can go to and look at to see the actual 

item that represents what is noted on this chart.

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Q. And in that particular column there is an I next to some 

of the page numbers and an S. What does that mean?

A. I represents the item, whether it be a check or expense 

voucher or something like that. S would indicate the actual 

statement. 

And on this I would need to note that NAIT was not a 

traditional bank like we are used to seeing, so the records 

from NAIT appear different. There are a lot of handwritten 

records and the bank statements look different than what you 

would expect to see from a Bank of America, for example.

Q. When you look under authorization, just looking at the 

first one as an example where there is a check and the number, 

what does that number represent? Do you see 702648?

A. That would be like the transaction number.

Q. Okay. Or the check number?

A. The check number.

Q. Underneath that it says EXP voucher. What does that 

mean?

A. Expense voucher.

Q. Where do you get that from?

A. From the records themselves.

Q. Well, let's look at some of these transactions. We are 

on the first one. We see its destination to MAYA. Have we 

seen MAYA somewhere else in some of the documents already 

admitted?

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A. We have. It was referenced on some of the documents that 

we looked at on Thursday indicating that it was part of the 

Muslim Brotherhood's organizations. If you will recall, the 

document that was in Arabic that had the last page attached to 

it with the list in English of the "organizations of our 

organizations the organizations of our friends," it was listed 

there. It was also listed on that chart that we saw of the 

Muslim Brotherhood's apparatuses, and Shukri Abu Baker's name 

was affiliated with it.

Q. Okay. Getting back to the first document you referenced 

that had the list of the Muslim Brotherhood organizations, to 

be clear, is that Muslim Brotherhood organizations in the 

United States?

A. That is correct.

Q. And on that same list was the HLF mentioned?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Okay. The next transaction you see is a $10,000 check to 

Yousef Salah. Do you know who Yousef Saleh is?

A. Yes. He is one of the members of the Palestine Committee 

who was a part of the United Association for Studies and 

Research, the UASR.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up what is in evidence 

Secretary of State VA-1, please, page 2 of that document. 

Enlarge the bottom half, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document again, Secretary of 

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State VA-1?

A. These are the articles of incorporation for the United 

Association for Studies and Research.

Q. And what is that organization again?

A. That was the -- We call it the UASR. It was listed on 

several of those documents you saw on Thursday, and is part of 

the Palestine Committee.

Q. So what does this identify Yousef Salah's role with the 

UASR?

A. On this part it lists him as a director.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 3, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And we see that again his name as a 

director?

A. That is correct.

Q. Does this document also have Mousa Abu Marzook as an 

individual associated with the UASR?

A. From the earlier papers, yes, it does.

Q. We covered that last week. Correct?

A. We did.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the OLF 1988 

disbursements, please, page 1. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, how many pages is this 

chart?

A. Four pages.

Q. Do you know every recipient on there? Are you able to 

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identify every recipient?

A. No. There are some on here that I wasn't able to 

identify, but I know a lot of them.

Q. We see Fawaz Mushtaha, who is receiving a $20,000 wire on 

April 15th, 1988. Do you see that document?

A. I do.

MR. JONAS: Why don't we pull up NAIT Exhibit page 

5, which references the supporting document for that 

transaction. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see that document before you, 

Agent Burns?

A. I do.

Q. What is that?

A. This is a request for a wire transfer to Fawaz Mushtaha 

for $20,000. And it is noted at the bottom, if you will look, 

it says "customer account, Occupied Land Fund."

Q. Who was Fawaz Mushtaha?

A. He was the Palestine Committee member whose yard the 

videotapes were found in.

Q. Is he also in the band?

A. He is.

Q. Okay. 

A. Or was.

Q. Going down on this -- Staying with the same page, do you 

recognize any other members of the Palestine committee on the 

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document you already discussed?

A. On the disbursement schedule on page 1? 

Q. Yes.

A. Yes. I think it is not on the screen yet.

MR. JONAS: Pull up 1988 OLF Disbursements. 

THE WITNESS: The person listed after Fawaz Mushtaha 

is Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to the second page of 

this document. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And do you see there is a transaction to 

an individual named Nadia Elashi?

A. Yes.

Q. And if we can -- Who is Nadia Elashi, if you know?

A. She is the wife of Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook and the 

cousin of the Defendant Ghassan Elashi.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to the third page, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see there is $50,035 wire to a 

company called K&A Overseas Trading?

A. Yes. There are a number of those transactions on this 

page to K&A.

Q. Did you create a sort of sub chart to K&A Trading?

A. I did.

Q. We will get to that in just a moment. 

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Did you also create a summary chart for the 1989 OLF or 

HLF Disbursements.

A. I did.

Q. And do you have that before you?

A. I do.

Q. What is that sub chart -- What is that chart based upon?

A. It is a summary of the HLF disbursements in the year 

1989, its second year of operation.

Q. And do these come from the NAIT records as well, like the 

prior chart?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Government's exhibit OLF 1989 Disbursements.

THE COURT: Same objections? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Same objections, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Those are overruled, and that is 

admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull that on the screen, 

please, page 1.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see that before you?

A. I do.

Q. All right. Do you see the second transaction on that 

screen, January 23rd, 1989?

A. I do.

Q. You testified Nadia Elashi is Mousa Abu Marzook's wife?

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A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up the NAIT records, page 

37. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is that item on the screen?

A. That is a check from NAIT out of the Occupied Land Fund's 

account to Nadia Elashi for $10,000 on January 23rd, 1989.

Q. During the course of your investigation, did you come 

across anything indicating whether Nadia Elashi was a charity 

or needy person?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Going back to the 1989 disbursements, please, do you see 

there are payments made to the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you create a sub chart of those payments as well?

A. I did.

Q. How much money was paid out? If you go to the third 

page. 

A. In 1989, approximately $956,705.

Q. Did you come across anything in the documents that 

indicated how much HLF claimed to have made or taken in 

donations in 1988 and '89?

A. I found some documents in English that indicated what 

they said they made in those two years.

Q. Do you have HLF Search No. 7 before you?

A. I do.

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Q. Okay. Does that document indicate how much was received 

by the HLF in these early years?

A. Yes. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence HLF Search No. 7.

THE COURT: That is admitted from this morning. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does this indicate how much money the HLF 

made in 1988? 

MR. JONAS: If we can enlarge the middle half, 

please? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am sorry. Before we do that, what is 

the document entitled?

A. This document, which came from the HLF -- one of the 

computers in the HLF offices, was originally in English and is 

titled "The Holy Land Foundation: A story of growth and 

prosperity."

MR. JONAS: If we can enlarge the middle half where 

it says "Income." 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) How much income did they receive in 1988?

A. The stated income here is $300.

Q. And how about 1989?

A. $400.

Q. Did you come across any other documentation that 

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indicates how much money they may have received in 1989?

A. I did.

Q. Do you have before you HLF Search No. 8?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Does that document indicate income from the HLF?

A. It does. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence HLF Search No. 8. 

THE COURT: And that is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put the first page on the 

screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) For the year 1989 how much -- Well, 

withdrawn. What does this document purport to be?

A. It is an IRS Form 8734 that was found at the HLF's Dallas 

office, and it says "support schedule for advance ruling 

period." It basically contains records regarding income for 

the Holy Land Foundation between 1989 and 1993.

Q. Agent Burns, does it have a date on the top right hand 

side?

A. It does. April 1st, 1994.

Q. Do you know -- You are not an IRS agent. Right?

A. No, I am not.

Q. Do you know what the purpose of this form is?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Outside of seeing this document itself, have you studied 

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these forms?

A. I have not.

Q. Line 1 says "Gifts, grants, and contributions received." 

How much do they indicate in this document that they received 

in 1989?

A. $210,275.

Q. Do you have -- Did Shukri Baker ever publicly say how 

much they received in 1989?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Okay. Do you have before you what is marked as Baker 

Declaration?

A. I do.

Q. And without getting into details, what is Baker 

Declaration?

A. This is a written sworn statement by Shukri Abu Baker to 

a federal court.

Q. Part of a lawsuit?

A. It is. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Baker Declaration. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Nothing beyond, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. That is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put page 2 on the screen, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, in this item how much is 

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Shukri Baker saying HLF took in for 1989 or 1990, at least?

A. And just for reference, the document is dated April 4th, 

2002, and on page 2, no. 13, it says, "Because...has taken our 

records, I am providing many of the financial and other 

details from memory. During our first year of fundraising 

ending in 1990, we raised approximately $700,000. Because the 

Intifada was going on in Palestine, we focused our charity on 

orphans, food, and aid to hospitals."

Q. So he is saying 1990 was their first year of fundraising?

A. That is what he says in this sworn statement.

Q. In the 1989 OLF Disbursements, how much did the OLF 

disburse again?

A. To be accurate, let me check. In 1989, $956,705.

Q. Did you come across any item in your review of the search 

warrant material, or all the material, indicating where they 

would have gotten $956,000 from?

A. Not other than -- No.

Q. We talked a moment ago about these charts I asked you, 

charts that came from the 1988 and 1989 disbursements.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. We saw on one of the charts were payments to -- 

Correct me if I am wrong. On one of the charts do we see 

payments to an organization known as the Islamic Center of 

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Gaza?

A. Yes. That was the 1989 disbursement chart.

Q. And do you know what the Islamic Center of Gaza is?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Have you seen anything in any of the search warrant 

material of the HLF that indicates what that entity or 

organization is?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have before you HLF Search No. 108?

A. I do.

Q. What is that item?

A. This is a Middle East Affairs Journal from the summer of 

1996 published by the UASR found at the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And does this Middle East Affairs Journal indicate 

anywhere anything about the Islamic Center for Gaza?

A. It does.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence HLF Search No. 108. 

THE COURT: And that is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, if you can turn to page 105 

of this document. 

A. I have it.

Q. Do you see -- On the top of 105, what does it say about 

the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. It says --

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Q. If you can read --

A. I am sorry. I have too many binders. It says, "In order 

to manage the Palestinian Brotherhood's daily activities, 

however, Yassin established al-Mujamma' al-Islami (The Islamic 

Center) in Gaza. He served as its secretary general until 

1984. The Center eventually coordinated the activities of all 

organizations administered by the local Brotherhood."

Q. Is the word in brotherhood in caps?

A. It is.

Q. Indicating it is an entity?

A. Yes.

Q. And let me just show you again Demonstrative No. 17. It 

says Yassin. Who is Yassin?

A. The founder and former spiritual leader of Hamas; the one 

in the middle on the top.

Q. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin?

A. That is correct.

Q. By the way, does this article identify any other member 

of Hamas we just saw on the chart, Demonstrative No. 17? And 

to make it easier for you, I will direct your attention to 

page 106, the bottom half. 

A. It does.

Q. And that particular paragraph -- 

MR. JONAS: Can we get the elmo?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see what the title of that 

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particular section of this article is?

A. I do.

Q. What is that?

A. "Hamas."

MR. DRATEL: I just object on hearsay grounds, Your 

Honor, this journal. 

THE COURT: That has been admitted. That has been 

overruled and that is admitted. That is HLF Search No. 108? 

MR. JONAS: Yes. 

THE COURT: That has been admitted. 

MS. CADEDDU: This would be one of the documents I 

would request a limiting instruction on.

MR. DRATEL: Yes. 

THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, who does can it identify as 

other members of Hamas, or the brotherhood as it says?

A. It identifies -- Under the section, the second paragraph, 

you will see where it begins, it says, "The Brotherhood began 

developing a strategy for dealing with the situation. These 

were Sheikh Ahmed Yassin" -- The person on the top the middle.

MR. JONAS: For the record, Your Honor, I am holding 

up Demonstrative No. 17 again. 

THE WITNESS: Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that the individual I am pointing to 

on Demonstrative No. 17?

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A. It is. 

Ibrahim al-Yazuri.

Q. I don't see him on the chart. 

A. He is not on the chart. 

Salih Shihada.

Q. Also not on the chart. 

A. No. Isa al-Nashar, Muhammad Shama'a, and Abd al-Fattah 

Dukhan.

Q. Getting back to the Islamic Center of Gaza, Agent Burns, 

did you find anything else that identifies what this 

organization is within the search marked material you 

reviewed?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have before you what has been marked as InfoCom 

Search No. 28?

A. I do.

Q. What is that item?

A. This was a manual from InfoCom which discusses the 

Islamic Center of Gaza, along with a number of other zakat 

committees.

Q. Is there a page number that discusses the Islamic Center 

of Gaza?

A. Yes. 

MS. HOLLANDER: What was the number of this exhibit? 

MR. JONAS: InfoCom Search No. 28. 

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Your Honor, at this time I would offer into evidence 

InfoCom Search No. 28. 

THE COURT: And that is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, if you turn to page 98 of 

that exhibit. 

A. I have it.

Q. What does it say about the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. It says, "The Islamic complex"--which is the same thing 

as the Islamic Center; the Arabic name is al-Mujamma' 

al-Islami and can be translated both ways--"was founded in 

1973 by a group of Muslims led by Mujahid Sheikh Ahmed 

Yassin."

Q. That is the same individual we pointed out on the chart 

as being the leader of Hamas?

A. That is correct. And some of the names below were some 

of the names that were identified in the Middle Eastern 

Affairs Journal that we just looked at.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, did you create some sort of a 

mini-chart or summary chart for payments to the Islamic Center 

of Gaza from the HLF?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have before you a chart that is marked as Payments 

To IC/Gaza?

A. I do.

Q. Is that based upon records already admitted into 

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evidence, as well as other bank records?

A. Yes. It is based on, as you said, records that have 

already been admitted and a few additional bank records.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence the chart marked as Payments To IC/Gaza. 

MR. DRATEL: One moment, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right. 

MR. DRATEL: Just as to time frame, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Do you want to establish a time frame? 

MR. DRATEL: The information -- In other words -- 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when is the first 

transaction between the Holy Land Foundation and the Islamic 

Center of Gaza?

A. 1989.

Q. When is the last transaction?

A. The last transaction on the chart is July 20th, 1994.

Q. Okay. 

THE COURT: And that is document -- 

MR. JONAS: Payments to IC, which stands for Islamic 

center /Gaza.

THE COURT: That is admitted.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And Agent Burns, you said this is based 

upon just not the NAIT records. Is that correct? But other 

records as well?

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A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, for the record I am going to 

offer into evidence the other supporting documentation to this 

chart, and I will go through them.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, what is HLF Bank Account No. 

3?

A. That is one of the HLF's bank accounts.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence HLF Bank Account No. 3. 

MR. DRATEL: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Do you have several of those you are 

going to do? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: Just Ask them all and then offer them 

all at once.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) HLF Search No. 42, what is that?

A. It is A document seized in the HLF search warrant that 

relates to this chart.

Q. Are those documents pertaining specifically to the 

payments to the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. Yes.

Q. InfoCom Search No. 20, what is that? 

A. That is a document that was seized from the InfoCom 

search warrant that relate to transactions in this chart.

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Q. Okay. Payments between the Holy Land Foundation and the 

Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. It says the Islamic Society here, but. 

Q. HLF Foreign Account No. 1, what is that?

A. That was one of the HLF's foreign bank records, bank 

account that it held in a foreign country.

Q. Okay. 

THE COURT: What was the number? 

MR. JONAS: HLF Foreign Account No. 1.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And HLF Search No. 108?

THE COURT: You did that one already. 

MR. JONAS: You are right. I am sorry, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And finally InfoCom Search No. 28?

THE COURT: You have done that one as well.

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir. 

So I offer into evidence HLF Bank Account No. 3, HLF 

Search No. 42, InfoCom Search No. 20, HLF Bank Account No. 1, 

and HLF Foreign Bank Account No. 1. 

MR. DRATEL: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. And those are overruled, and 

those documents are admitted.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, before we get into the 

substance of this chart, Islamic Center of Gaza, did you 

assist in creating a chart that just lists out all the bank 

accounts that are going to be referred to in this case?

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A. Yes.

Q. Would that chart aid the jury in understanding your 

testimony?

A. It would.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time -- 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I don't know if you have it before you. 

MR. JONAS: May I have one moment, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, let me show you what has 

been marked as I believe it is Bank Accounts. Is this the 

chart you are referring to?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I offer into evidence as a 

1006 summary the chart marked Bank Accounts, and we have a 

smaller version as well. 

THE COURT: Counsel?

MR. WESTFALL: We are fine with it, Your Honor.

MS. HOLLANDER: No objection.

THE COURT: That summary chart styled Bank Accounts 

is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I think we will keep this up 

there since we are going to be referring to other exhibits as 

well.

MS. HOLLANDER: I can't see the witness, Your Honor, 

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is the problem.

THE COURT: And feel free to move, Ms. Hollander, 

and all counsel, if you need to move.

MR. JONAS: Okay. If we could pull up the chart 

Payments To IC/Gaza, if we have that.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, let's look at the first 

transaction, April 26, 1989. 

MR. JONAS: And if we could pull up NAIT record page 

176.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. Who authorized this transaction to 

the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. If you will look at the bottom, it says "withdrawal 

requested by brother Shukri Abu Baker." That would be the 

Defendant.

MR. JONAS: Okay. If we can look at NAIT record 

page 74, which is another one of these transactions. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who authorized this transaction to the 

Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. The bottom section under withdrawal requested by brother 

Mohd. Mezain and brother Shukri.

Q. Who is Mohd. Mezain?

A. It is like a shortened form for Mohammed, which would be 

the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain. And Shukri would be the 

Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. How much is this transaction for?

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A. I believe it said $50,000.

Q. Your chart reflects a transaction of $50,035. Do you 

know what the $35 would have been for?

A. Likely for wire transfer fees.

MR. JONAS: If we can look at NAIT page 103, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is transaction dated September 21st, 

1989 for $100,000, not including the $35 fee. Who authorized 

this transaction?

A. If you will look at the bottom, it says "withdrawal 

requested by brother Abu Ibrahim," which that is the nickname 

for the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

MR. JONAS: If we can look HLF Bank Account No. 3, 

please, page 7. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Excuse me, counsel. Have these 

documents been introduced? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, they have. I just introduced some 

of these just now.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you make out -- Is this also to the 

Islamic Center?

A. It is. That is the name that I referred to earlier 

al-Mujama'a al-Islami. That is the written Arabic that 

translates into the Islamic Center or the Islamic Complex of 

Gaza.

Q. And we saw that in the book HLF Search No. 108?

A. That is correct.

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Q. Do you see who authorized or who signed this check?

A. This one is signed by Ghassan Elashi. It is a little bit 

dark on my screen, but you can see it at the bottom there.

Q. You recognize his signature?

A. I do.

Q. What is the date of this check?

A. June 20th, 1990.

Q. And how much money?

A. $25,000.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the chart Payments 

To IC/Gaza, please, page 2. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see the transaction 

on June 28th, 1994?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. This says "wire, Haitham Maghawri." Who is that?

A. He was also an HLF officer.

Q. You see this transaction has $45,000/$8,000. Can you 

explain that, please?

A. In the later years some of the larger wires were sent 

from the HLF offices here to bank accounts over there -- 

Q. Let me stop you for a moment. I am sorry. You mentioned 

earlier that some of the records you reviewed for this chart 

was HLF Foreign Account No. 1. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Looking at the chart Bank Accounts, I don't know 

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if you can -- Can you see this chart? Can you see where my 

finger is? It says HLF Foreign Account No. 1?

A. I do.

Q. What bank was this account at?

A. The Bank of Palestine.

Q. Do you know where that account was located?

A. In the Palestinian territories.

Q. West Bank or Gaza?

A. I believe it was in Gaza, but I am not positive.

Q. Okay. Please go ahead and finish your explanation of 

this transaction?

A. So a large wire would go from the HLF account here to the 

HLF's foreign accounts, and from there money would be 

disbursed to different parties.

Q. Okay. How were you able to determine that $8,000 of this 

$45,000 went to the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. By looking at the underlying records, both search warrant 

and bank records, to see who the ultimate recipient was.

Q. And you see under this column for the exhibit it says 

InfoCom Search No. 20. So if someone went to those words 

contained within InfoCom Search No. 20, would they be able to 

ascertain out of that $45,000 total wire $8,000 was meant for 

the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. That is correct.

Q. Are we going to see transactions like this throughout the 

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charts that you will testify about?

A. Yes. In the mid to late '90s you will see a lot of 

those.

Q. The transaction underneath that dated July 15th, 1994, is 

a similar set-up, the $21,000 and it says/ILS $39,000?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the ILS?

A. It stands for Israel shekels as opposed to U.S. dollars.

Q. If we don't see ILS, then what denomination are all these 

other denominations in?

A. U.S. dollars.

Q. Do you see the column right next where it says 

"Destination payment to Ibrahim Al Yazouri, Director of 

Islamic Council"? Why is that there and in bold?

A. That is the ultimate recipient of the money, and he was 

the individual that we saw referenced along with Sheikh Ahmed 

Yassin in HLF Search No. 108.

Q. How do you know he is the ultimate recipient?

A. Based on the records that are referenced in that exhibit 

column.

Q. Would that be InfoCom Search No. 20, or one of the other 

items?

A. That is correct.

Q. If you turn to the last page, page 3, do you see there 

are two lines that say "Hamas designation SDT, 1/23/95, and 

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then Hamas designation FTO, 10/8/1997"?

A. I do.

Q. What does that mean?

A. On the financial schedules, and we have a number of them 

that we will be discussing, they are done chronologically. 

And on all the charts we tried to note the dates of the 

designations of Hamas so that you could see which transactions 

occurred prior to and subsequent to those designations.

Q. In this instance, then, did the Holy Land Foundation send 

any money to the Islamic Center of Gaza after Hamas was 

designated?

A. I don't know the answer to that. I know that I could not 

link any money to the Islamic Center of Gaza.

Q. Based upon what you reviewed and what is in this chart?

A. Right. That is correct.

Q. There were no transactions post designation?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. The total amount sent is how much to the Islamic 

Center of Gaza?

A. $733,245, plus $56,100 Israeli shekels.

Q. You didn't convert that to dollars to include in the 

$733,000 number?

A. It has not been converted because it was impossible to 

get a completely accurate conversion rate for the specific 

date of the transactions, so we just left it in Israeli 

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shekels.

Q. Agent Burns, if you recall, on I believe it is the 1988 

or 1989 OLF Disbursement charts there were payments to an 

individual or organization known as K&A Trading. Do you 

recall that?

A. I do.

Q. Did you create a chart just reflecting on those 

particular payments?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have that chart before you?

A. That is one that I do not have.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, if I may approach? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you have that chart now?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Is that chart based upon items already in 

evidence?

A. It is.

Q. Would that chart aid the jury in understanding your 

testimony?

A. It will. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence the exhibit marked as Payments to K&A Trading. 

THE COURT: And those are admitted. The reason I 

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say it is -- On your chart, you show two, K&A/Marzook and K&A 

Trading.

MR. JONAS: Correct. The K&A/Marzook we are going 

to get to in a moment. It is a separate chart.

THE COURT: So this is the other one? 

MR. JONAS: Correct. 

THE COURT: Okay. Trading, that is admitted.

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when is the first wire 

transfer to K&A Overseas Trading?

A. September 1st, 1988.

Q. When is the last wire transfer?

A. October 27th, 1988.

Q. Basically a little under a two-month period?

A. That is correct.

Q. And in this two-month period, how much money did the HLF 

send to K&A Trading?

A. $250,175.

Q. Is it safe to assume that the $175 were wire transfer 

fees?

A. Yes.

Q. $35 per wire?

A. That is correct.

Q. Do you see where it says -- 

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MR. JONAS: Let's just pull up NAIT page 150 that 

reflects a transaction of September 15th, 1988. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who authorized this transaction, 

according to this document on the screen?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

MR. JONAS: If we can scroll up a little bit, 

please? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where was the HLF sending the money to 

for these transactions to K&A Trading?

A. The Banque De Paris in Switzerland.

Q. I assume that is a bank. 

A. I am assuming. I don't speak French.

Q. Neither do I. Did you, during the course of the 

investigation make a request, or did someone from the 

Department of Justice make a request to Switzerland to obtain 

those bank records?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have before you what is marked as K&A Trading 

Account?

A. I do.

Q. And are those -- Is that the account where this money 

from the HLF was sent to?

A. It is. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence K&A Trading Account. 

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THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, the fact it is called K&A 

Trading Account, does that mean it is not a trading account; 

it is a bank account? Just so we are clear for the record?

A. Are you talking about our exhibit name? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. There is only so much space you can fit --

A. On the little exhibit stickers. That is right.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, how do you know that this is the same 

account that the money was sent to, that the HLF money was 

sent to?

A. Because the account number in these records is the same 

as the account number referenced in the NAIT records from the 

HLF.

Q. Okay. So if we can center on the middle, on the middle 

of this page, do you see where it says 110441?

A. I do.

Q. I am not going to make us jump back and forth between the 

documents, but is that number referenced on the wire transfer 

authorization we saw a moment ago from the NAIT records?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that is how you match up the wire transfers to 

this particular account?

A. That is correct.

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Q. Okay. Is there anywhere in this document that indicates 

who owns or operates K&A Overseas Trading?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we look to page 6 of this document, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you have any idea what language that 

is in?

A. It is not English.

Q. Okay. On the right hand side in the middle we see a 

name. 

A. If we go to the next page, it is actually in English.

Q. Okay. Is that a translation, the next page?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. JONAS: Go to page 7, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. What name do you see over there 

for this account holder?

A. Mr. Khairy H. Al-Agha, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

Q. Would it make sense that the K of K&A Trading, Khairy, A 

for Al-Agha, K-A?

A. I presume.

Q. Did you come across anything in the evidence you 

reviewed, including the documents we discussed, that identify 

who Khairy Al-Agha is?

A. Yes.

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MR. JONAS: If you will turn to Ashqar Search No. 1 

is. It is a document already in evidence. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you have that before you?

A. I do.

Q. Thursday when we talked about Ashqar Search No. 1, what 

did we focus on, what particular page?

A. We focused on page 4.

Q. Which was?

A. The important phone and fax numbers for the Palestine 

Section in America.

Q. And we looked at some of those names that matched up with 

the Palestine Committee names in the Elbarasse documents?

A. That is correct. We compared this to those lists.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to page 5?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is the title of page 5?

A. Again, this is a translation. It says, "Important phone 

and fax numbers. Palestine Section outside America."

Q. Do you see Khairy Al-Agha's name there?

A. He is the first person listed.

Q. Do you see where it says Saudi Arabia? Did we see Saudi 

Arabia anywhere on the bank records of his that we looked at?

A. In the bank records on page 7 it was noted that he was in 

Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

Q. Did you see his name anywhere else in any of the 

documents we discussed?

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A. Yes.

Q. Do you have Marzook's Phonebook before you?

A. I do.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Marzook Phonebook, 

page 54, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see -- Where do you see Khairy 

Al-Agha's name on the page?

A. The third name on the list says Dr. Khairy.

Q. How do you know that is Khairy Al-Agha?

A. Because if you look at the telephone numbers referenced 

to the side of his name, first 966 is the country code for 

Saudi Arabia.

Q. Okay. 

A. But both of those numbers are the same phone numbers 

referenced in Ashqar Search No. 1.

Q. Okay. While we are talking about Khairy Al-Agha and 

Marzook, did you come across anything indicating that those 

two individuals had a relationship?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did you look at?

A. There were bank records taken from Ismail Elbarasse's 

home indicating a financial relationship between Marzook and 

Khairy Al-Agha.

Q. Did you create a chart reflecting that financial 

relationship?

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A. Yes.

Q. Is the chart in the same format as these other charts we 

talked about?

A. It is.

Q. Do you have before you an exhibit marked 

K.Agha/K&A/Marzook?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the schedule you created to reflect transactions 

between Marzook and Khairy Al-Agha?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence the schedule marked K.Agha/K&A/Marzook. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, before I get into this one, 

can you remind us again the time period that the HLF was 

sending money to Khairy Al-Agha?

A. It was from mid to late 1988. I believe the last 

transaction was in late October. October 27th, 1988 was the 

last transaction.

Q. When is the first transaction of this chart for payments 

to Khairy Al-Agha and Marzook?

A. From Khairy Al-Agha to Marzook the first transaction is 

the second on the chart, which is February 8, 1989, about 

three and a half months after the HLF sent its last 

transaction to K&A Trading.

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Q. Was there a transaction prior to that between these two 

individuals?

A. Yes. Mousa Abu Marzook actually sent $15,000 to Khairy 

Al-Agha in 1988, and the remainder of the transactions on this 

chart were going the other direction--K&A was sending the 

money back to Marzook.

Q. Okay. You mentioned that some of these documents you 

looked at to support this chart came from the Elbarasse search 

warrant?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you look at bank accounts as well?

A. I did.

Q. It says Elbarasse Search No. 36. Is that some of the 

documents you are referring to?

A. Yes.

Q. And Elbarasse Search No. 39?

A. That is correct.

Q. Then it says Marzook Bank Account No. 4. What is that?

A. That is one of the bank accounts held by Mousa Abu 

Marzook.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Elbarasse Search No. 36, Elbarasse Search No. 

39, and Marzook Bank Account No. 4. 

THE COURT: Those are admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, how much money was moved 

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from Khairy Al-Agha to Mousa Abu Marzook?

A. I think it was approximately $1.3 million. There is not 

a total on here, but if you add them up, it is well over a 

million.

Q. Just so we are clear are, on the chart the first 

transaction is shaded. Why is it shaded?

A. On the very first transaction? 

Q. Yes.

A. To indicate the money was going in the other direction.

Q. You mean the other direction from Marzook to Khairy 

Al-Agha?

A. That is correct.

Q. Then you have money not shaded, and that reflects?

A. Money going from K&A Overseas Trading to Marzook.

Q. Agent Burns, in reviewing all the search warrant material 

and everything you have seen in the course of this case, did 

you come across any explanation as to why Holy Land Foundation 

was sending $250,000 to Khairy Al-Agha?

A. I have seen information indicating that they said they 

only sent to charitable organizations, and I researched this 

and Khairy Al-Agha -- K&A Trading is not a charitable 

organization. So no, I did not find an explanation as to why 

they were sending so much money to K&A Overseas Trading.

Q. Okay. Staying with Marzook, let's talk about him for a 

minute, did you see anything indicating that Marzook himself 

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sent money to the three organizations that comprise the 

Palestine Committee, the UASR, IAP, and HLF?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you create a chart that would summarize those 

transactions?

A. I did.

Q. Do you have those charts before you? 

A. I believe I need you to hand me those. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, may I have a moment, please?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you have a chart reflecting payments 

Marzook and UASR?

A. I do.

Q. And what are those payments based upon and that chart 

based upon?

A. Marzook bank records, Elbarasse search warrant material.

Q. Okay. And what is the time frame of the transactions 

between Marzook and UASR? 

A. March 2nd, 1992 through November 30th, 1992.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Government's exhibit I believe it is labeled 

Marzook/UASR on the exhibit sticker. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that correct, Agent Burns?

A. Yes.

MR. DRATEL: As to time frame, Your Honor.

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MR. JONAS: I believe she covered the time frame. 

MR. DRATEL: No, no. I am saying it goes to the 

time frame, that is the objection.

MR. JONAS: I thought that was a question, asking 

the time frame.

THE COURT: That is overruled, and that exhibit is 

-- That chart is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put page of that chart on the 

screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, this is based upon, again, 

Elbarasse search records?

A. In part, yes.

Q. As well as bank records?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I apologize. I am not 

keeping track of documents as I am admitting them, so I may 

offer documents that are already in evidence just to play it 

safe.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. JONAS: At this time I would offer into evidence 

Marzook Bank Account No. 3, Elbarasse Search No. 38, Marzook 

Bank Account No. 1. 

THE COURT: So Marzook Bank Accounts No. 1 and 3 -- 

MR. JONAS: Correct, yes, sir.

THE COURT: And then Elbarasse Search No. 38.

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MR. JONAS: Correct, yes, sir.

THE COURT: And those are admitted. 

MR. JONAS: Thank you.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, how many pages is this 

document?

A. Two.

Q. Two? What is the total amount of money Marzook sent to 

the UASR?

A. $286,272.49.

MR. JONAS: Can we pull up page 54 -- I am sorry. 

Page 52 of the Marzook Bank Account No. 3, and see one of the 

items that support this chart. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that -- That is from the -- That is a 

statement. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And that is the statement, if you can look at the chart 

does it reflect any of the payments between Marzook and UASR?

A. Yes, it does. The June 30th payment, if you will look at 

the second line from the bottom, it says June 30th with a 

check number and then the amount $34,169.42.

Q. Okay. Did Marzook make payments to the IAP?

A. He did.

Q. I am sorry. Before you leave the UASR, what was the 

total time period he was making payments to the UASR?

A. March through November of 1992.

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Q. 1992?

A. That is correct.

Q. What items did you review to support that he made 

payments to the IAP?

A. Elbarasse search warrant materials as well as Marzook 

bank records.

Q. Did you create a summary schedule of these payments, 

these transactions between Marzook and the IAP?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have that before you?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And is that labeled Marzook/IAP, the exhibit 

sticker?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Government's Exhibit Marzook/IAP. 

THE COURT: Okay. That is admitted. .

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And for the record, what is the title of 

the schedule on the top? Is it a little more expansive than 

on the exhibit sticker itself?

A. It is.

Q. What does it say at the top?

A. "Payments from Marzook to the Islamic Association for 

Palestine."

MR. JONAS: If we can put the first page of that 

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exhibit on the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And by the way, Agent Burns, with the 

last exhibit UASR and this current exhibit, were there any 

payments going from the UASR or IAP to Marzook, or was it 

purely a one way street from him to them?

A. I don't think that there were payments, but I can't say 

for sure that there weren't, based on these records. 

Q. Based upon the records. That is what I am asking. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Because in the Khairy Al-Agha transaction you said there 

was one transaction that went in the opposite direction. 

A. That is correct.

Q. From what you have seen, it is from Marzook to all these 

entities?

A. Yes.

Q. Agent Burns -- 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Marzook Bank Account No. 2. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, could you -- You see where 

it says authorization?

A. I do.

Q. There is a few times where it says Elbarasse's name. Why 

is that?

A. Because he was the individual identified as having 

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authorized the specific payment out of the Marzook bank 

account.

Q. And what is the time period of these transactions; 

starting when and ending when?

A. The transactions begin February 11th, 1985 and they end 

August 1st, 1992.

Q. Okay. In the Elbarasse records that we looked at the 

other day, does it indicate how long in existence the IAP -- 

how long IAP existed for?

A. Yes. I believe it was the first document we actually 

looked at from Ismail Elbarasse's home indicated that the IAP 

was originally created by the Muslim Brotherhood in the early 

'80s.

Q. So it predates the Palestine Committee?

A. Yes.

Q. And the HLF and UASR, do they predate the Palestine 

Committee, from the records we have seen and discussed?

A. They were all -- Well, the HLF was created about the same 

time. 1988 was when the Palestine Committee was formed, and 

the same thing with the HLF. And the UASR, I am not sure of 

the actual date, but it was around the same time.

Q. Okay. So the fact that Marzook is making payments to the 

IAP as early as 1985, I believe you said was the first 

transaction, is that consistent with the material we have 

discussed?

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A. Yes.

Q. And the fact he is making payments to UASR in 1992, is 

that also consistent -- 

A. Yes.

Q. In terms of the creation of the organizations. 

How much money did Marzook pay in total to the IAP? If 

you look at the bottom of page 5. 

A. $757,864.

Q. Do you see in the last transaction, last two 

transactions, it says Richardson, Texas?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the IAP have a presence in Richardson?

A. Yes.

Q. And are you basing that on the bank records that are in 

evidence?

A. And also I saw the office there.

Q. For purposes of this chart?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Did Marzook make payments to any of the 

Defendants, including the HLF or these Defendants 

individually?

A. He did.

Q. Did you create a summary chart reflecting those payments 

as well?

A. Yes.

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Q. And what is the name of the summary chart for the 

purposes of the sticker, the exhibit sticker?

A. The exhibit sticker says Marzook/Defendants.

Q. Okay. The title is different. The title says "Payments 

Between Marzook and the Defendants"?

A. That is correct.

Q. And what did you base this schedule on?

A. The NAIT bank records some of the Marzook bank accounts, 

Elbarasse search warrant material.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Government's exhibit Marzook/Defendants. 

MR. DRATEL: The only objection is as to time frame, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. That is overruled, and that chart 

is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put the first page on the 

screen, please. 

Your Honor, at this time I offer -- I don't believe I 

have offered Elbarasse Search No. 37 into evidence yet. If I 

have, I apologize. If I have not, I am offering it now.

THE COURT: No. 37 is admitted. That was one of the 

ones we discussed from this morning. That is admitted.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when is the first payment 

from the Holy Land Foundation to Mousa Abu Marzook?

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A. The HLF paid Marzook $10,000 on April 26th, 1988.

Q. Do you see on the far right on the exhibits there is 

several page numbers for the NAIT records?

A. Yes.

Q. One of them has the I and one of them has the S. Can you 

explain why there is multiple page numbers for this exhibit 

for this transaction?

A. Because there were several items that went into creating 

this transaction from the bank records, if you want to take a 

look at them.

Q. I didn't mean to interrupt.

But they all support that there is one transaction?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. The first part it says destination to Marzook and 

then Nadia Elashi. Again, who is she?

A. The wife of Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. She is getting two $10,000 payments; one on June 24th, 

1988, and then there is one on January 23rd, 1989. The 

spelling of the name is different. Why is that--Elashi?

A. As often with some of these Arabic names, as they are 

translated into English they are phonetically translated, so 

they can be spelled in many different ways. A-L-A-S-H-I is 

pronounced the same way as E-L-A-S-H-I.

Q. Is it spelled differently on this particular chart 

because that is how it is spelled in the records?

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A. That is correct.

Q. If you look at the second transaction to Nadia Elashi, 

again January 23rd, 1989, it says BR Shukri. What does that 

mean?

A. Brother Shukri, referring to the Defendant Shukri Abu 

Baker.

Q. How do you know? Were there any other Shukris that you 

came across in connection to the HLF?

A. At this time Shukri Abu Baker was the only Shukri that 

was affiliated with the HLF.

Q. If you go down further on the right hand side where it 

says destination, you have source now April 1985 Mousa Abu 

Marzook, and then destination Shukri Baker. Can you explain 

why we have had a shift in this chart from destination and 

payment?

A. Okay. The chart was created for all payments between 

Marzook and the Defendants, so it is organized by who the 

source and destination were. So the original transactions 

show Occupied Land Fund transactions with Mousa Abu Marzook. 

The next section are transactions between Mousa Abu Marzook 

and the individual Defendant Shukri Abu Baker chronologically. 

So the first transaction with Shukri Abu Baker was April 17th, 

1985.

Q. Going back to the top transaction, April 25th, 1988, how 

soon after was this transaction occurred after HLF was 

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created?

A. Very shortly. We first saw the HLF in operation in very 

early '88.

Q. And in going through all the search warrant material, did 

you come across any explanation as to why Holy Land Foundation 

is sending a total of $30,000 to Mousa Abu Marzook?

A. No.

MR. JONAS: Can we turn to the next page?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Was Marzook sending money to other 

Defendants besides the Holy Land Foundation and Shukri Baker, 

as we saw on the first page?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was he sending money to?

A. To the Defendant Ghassan Elashi.

Q. What is the time period for those payments?

A. Both of those were in 1988.

Q. And any other Defendant?

A. The Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

MR. JONAS: Turn to the next page, please. 

MR. DRATEL: What was the time frame on that? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What was the payment to Mohammad 

El-Mezain, the first and the last?

A. From July of 1988 through December 26, 1990.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, the payments to El-Mezain 

are also reflected in Elbarasse Search No. 40. I don't 

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believe I have offered that one yet, so I do at this time.

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

Let's go ahead and take the morning break at this time. 

Let's be in recess until 11:00. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Be in recess until 11:00.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, before the break we were 

talking about payments from Marzook and the Defendants, as 

well as the organizations that comprise the Palestine 

Committee. On those three charts, are total amounts listed?

A. On some of them they are; not on the chart between 

Marzook and the Defendants.

Q. Is that multiple individuals that are receiving money?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did you have an opportunity to total up the amount that 

Marzook paid to the Palestine Committee through the 

organizations or the Defendants themselves?

A. We did a rough estimate.

Q. Roughly how much did he pay?

A. Over $1.2 million.

Q. You testified that the money to UASR, a lot of it was in 

1992. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

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Q. And how about between him and the HLF?

A. Between Marzook and the HLF? 

Q. I shouldn't say him. Between Marzook and the HLF, what 

time period was he sending money to the HLF? 

A. 1992.

Q. Did you review anything that indicates how much money 

Marzook himself received in 1992 in order to make these 

payments?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Before we do that, can you just tell us again 

how much did he pay to the UASR in 1992?

A. To the UASR the total in 1992 was $286,272.49.

Q. And how much did he pay to the Holy Land Foundation in 

1992?

A. 1992, $210,000.

Q. So we are talking approximately half a million dollars 

that Marzook paid out to the UASR and HLF alone in 1992. Is 

that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Did you review any documents that indicates how 

much money he himself made in 1992 which would go to support 

these payments?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have before you what is marked as Marzook Tax 

Return No. 1 or Marzook Tax No. 1?

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A. I do.

Q. What is that item?

A. These are the tax returns for Mousa Abu Marzook that were 

signed on --

Q. What year is the return for?

A. It says 1992 at the top.

Q. Okay. You said tax returns. Is there just one return?

A. One return with supporting documentation.

Q. Is that tax return certified?

A. Yes. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Marzook Tax No. 1. 

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put the first page on the 

screen, please. Or the second page. Sorry. If we can scroll 

down now to the middle. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am sorry. Just to confirm at the top 

it says Mousa Abu Marzook and Nadia Elashi? 

A. It does.

Q. You said Nadia Elashi is his wife. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Does this say how much in wages Marzook earned in 1992?

A. It says under taxable interest income $6,809, and then 

under -- 

Q. I am sorry, Agent Burns. I don't mean to interrupt you, 

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but how much did he make in salary? How much does this 

document indicate he made in salary in 1992?

A. His adjusted gross income was $51,585.

Q. I don't think you understand my question. Line 7 says 

wages. Correct?

A. Right.

Q. Wages is salary?

A. I am sorry. Yes.

Q. How much did he earn in salary in 1992?

A. Zero.

Q. Okay. How much income did he earn from other sources in 

1992?

A. The interest income was $6,809.

Q. And then how much other income did he earn?

A. Business income was noted as $48,557.

Q. Without analyzing this whole return, is there anywhere on 

the return that indicates what the business income was?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was it?

A. Mecca Investments, an investment he had in a real estate 

company.

Q. Is there anywhere in the return to indicate Marzook was 

wealthy?

A. No.

Q. In the course of your investigation did you come across 

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any evidence that Marzook was wealthy?

A. I came across bank records to indicate he dealt with a 

lot of money, but I did not see a legitimate source for that 

money.

Q. Okay. Do you know what Marzook was doing in 1992 in the 

United States?

A. I believe he was still a student in Louisiana at that 

time.

Q. So did you come across, in examining this tax return, any 

justification or source for $500,000 that Marzook paid out to 

these two entities, UASR and HLF, just those two alone?

A. No.

Q. Did Marzook take a tax deduction for his payments he made 

to the HLF?

A. He took a tax donation for a payment that he made to the 

HLF, but not for the entire thing.

Q. You said he made a total of $210,000 in payments to the 

HLF in 1992. How many payments did that comprise?

A. Three.

Q. What was the breakdown?

A. $10,000, and then $100,000, and then about ten days later 

another $100,000.

Q. If we could turn to page 11 of his tax return, do you see 

where it says Schedule A?

A. I do.

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Q. Contributions by cash, check. I am assuming that is what 

it means?

A. Yes.

Q. How much does it say that he contributed to the Holy Land 

Foundation in 1992?

A. $25,000.

Q. Did the Holy Land Foundation give him a receipt for this 

money?

A. They did.

MR. JONAS: If you can turn to page 11, please. 

THE WITNESS: I believe it is page 13.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am sorry. We were on page 11. And do 

you see a receipt there from the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes.

Q. How much is it for?

A. $25,000.

Q. Based upon your review of the bank records and the 

Elbarasse material in creating that schedule of payments by 

Marzook to the Defendants, did you actually see checks or wire 

transfers totaling the $210,000 he made in 1992?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this $25,000 receipt accurate?

A. No.

Q. Based upon what you looked at?

A. That is correct.

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Q. Okay. Did any of the Defendants talk publicly about 

their relationship with Marzook?

A. They did.

Q. Was any of this public discussion in a phone call 

intercepted by the FBI?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have before you what has been marked as Baker 

Wiretap No. 2?

A. Bear with me while I find my other binder.

Q. Sure.

A. I have it.

Q. I am sorry. Before we do that, I skipped one question. 

Did you come across any evidence indicating that Marzook acted 

as an intermediary in getting money to the HLF?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have before you what has been marked as InfoCom 

Search No. 83?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Without getting into the details, what is this 

document?

A. It is a piece of correspondence that relates to a 

transaction involving Mousa Abu Marzook and the HLF.

Q. Who signed this letter?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Is it on any letterhead?

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A. The Occupied Land Fund.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence InfoCom Search No. 83.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What language is this letter in?

A. It was in Arabic.

MR. JONAS: If we can put page 2 on the screen, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the date of the letter?

A. February 17th, 1991.

Q. Okay. Just read where it starts, "His eminence," and the 

next line?

A. It is addressed to "His imminence, the honorable Sheik 

Omar Ahmad Badahdah. May good keep him. In reply to your 

notification which we received on February 3rd, I would like 

to inform you that we have received from your end the sum of 

$66,000 through brother Mousa Abu Marzook. We thank you, and 

may God bless you. Hoping for your continued support to the 

Fund, and apologizing for the delay in sending this note."

Q. That is fine. Okay. Getting back to where I was a 

moment ago, do you have Baker Wiretap No. 2 before you?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And is that a phone call involving any of the 

Defendants?

A. Yes.

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Q. Who?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. What is the date of the call?

A. April 1st, 1996.

Q. 1996?

A. That is correct.

Q. And is there a discussion between Shukri Baker and 

another party regarding his or HLF's relationship with 

Marzook?

A. Yes. This is a call in English between Shukri Abu Baker 

and a reporter, an American reporter named Gayle. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Baker Wiretap No. 2 and No. 2-A, the 

accompanying audio. 

THE COURT: Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am not sure. Is 2-A is first 

clip? Do they go in order? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, excuse me. 

THE COURT: Sure. 

Any objections, Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am not sure which clip this is, 

because I have them all as one, and I may have some 106, but I 

will know as soon as I see it.

THE COURT: All right. Baker Wiretap No. 2 and 2-A 

are admitted. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, for purposes of this trial 

is the whole call being admitted, the entire call?

A. No, it is not.

Q. And what did you do with the call?

A. A lot of these calls were fairly lengthy, so what we did 

was redact and include only the portions that were relevant to 

what we were wanting to show here today.

Q. That is similar to what you did with the videotapes?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did the FBI change the content of the call in any way?

A. No.

Q. For purposes of this call, then, I think -- Is this call 

broken down into segments?

A. It is.

Q. I think for right now we only want to play the fourth 

segment.

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap 2, clip 4 was played in open 

court, while questions were propounded.) 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am sorry. This is a woman named Gayle, 

you said, is a reporter. 

A. That is correct.

Q. She referred to Mr. Marzook's attorney. At the time of 

this phone call, do you know what was going on with Marzook?

A. Yes. Marzook had been arrested at JFK Airport in 1995 

and was currently, at the time of this call, detained and 

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fighting his extradition proceedings.

Q. Okay. Marzook's phonebook is in evidence. Correct? 

A. That is correct.

Q. Did you go through it?

A. Yes.

Q. Is the Defendant Shukri Baker's name in Marzook's 

phonebook?

A. It is.

Q. Any other Defendants' names in the phonebook?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Whose?

A. We went through it the other day and identified the 

number for Mohammad El-Mezain as well as Ghassan Elashi.

Q. Okay. Shukri Baker is telling this reporter that maybe 

his phone number is in Marzook's phonebook in relation to the 

$210,000 three donations that Marzook gave to the HLF. 

Correct?

A. Actually he said -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I object to the leading 

and repeating testimony.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to rephrase? 

MR. JONAS: Sure.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What was Shukri Baker referring to when 

he talked to Gayle, the reporter, regarding his name in 

Marzook's phonebook?

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A. He was -- Well, she had asked him why his number would be 

in Marzook's phonebook, and he said that he guessed that he 

probably picked it up around the time of the convention.

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. She is just 

repeating the transcript.

MR. JONAS: It is a foundational matter.

THE COURT: Yes. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) We looked at the chart before, the 

payments between Marzook and the Defendants. Focus on the 

bottom half, please. Do you see there is a payment from 

Marzook to the Defendant Shukri Baker?

A. I do.

Q. In 1985?

A. I do.

Q. And there is another one in 1985?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. How much earlier before Marzook gave $210,000 to 

the HLF were these payments to the Defendant Shukri Baker?

A. Almost seven years.

Q. And there are some more payments on the next page?

A. Yes.

Q. So seven years prior to Marzook making this donation, he 

is giving money to Baker. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Did Shukri Baker talk to any other Defendant 

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regarding the phone conversation we just played, the one with 

Gayle, the reporter?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. The Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Okay. Do you have -- Was that phone conversation 

intercepted by the FBI?

A. It was.

Q. Do you have before you what is marked as El-Mezain 

Wiretap No. 11?

A. Yes.

Q. And who is the participants on that call?

A. This is a call between the Defendants Mohammad El-Mezain, 

Shukri Abu Baker, and Haitham Maghawri.

Q. What is the date of the call?

A. April 3rd, 1996.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence El-Mezain Wiretap No. 11. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, beyond the previous 

objections, but also we have a 106 -- 

MR. JONAS: For this one? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes. 

MS. HOLLANDER: We do, too. I don't know if it is 

the same 106. 

THE COURT: Are you offering 11-A as well? 

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MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: No. 11 and 11-A. Those are admitted, 

and we will deal with the 106. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am sorry to interrupt. I was just 

going to see if we had the same 106. 

THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. Have you looked 

at their 106? 

MR. JONAS: I have not, sir. 

Your Honor, this is the first I am looking at this. I 

just need a moment to see if we can agree. 

THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we are going to object to 

their 106 requests.

THE COURT: Okay. Let me take a look at that. 

(The following was had outside the presence and 

hearing of the jury.)

MS. HOLLANDER: This is where theirs ends, and it 

ends by saying "We don't give to individuals," and then they 

explain who they do give to. He is talking about who they 

give to and who they support. And then if you leave it there, 

it is just not complete, and in fairness the jury ought to 

hear the rest of it.

THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.

MR. JONAS: I am not sure that is where we end. I 

don't see that on mine. 

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MS. HOLLANDER: That is where that part of it ends. 

It may not where the whole thing ends. I am sorry.

MR. JONAS: There is two segments to this call. 

That relates to the second segment, which I am not playing 

with this witness. I am only playing the first segment, which 

is the conversation about Marzook in the phonebook.

MS. HOLLANDER: Okay.

MR. DRATEL: Okay. So we will reserve -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am sorry. I thought this is what 

he was -- 

MR. DRATEL: We have something that continues as 

well.

THE COURT: So it goes beyond? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes, but it is the next segment.

MR. JONAS: I am not sure what that is going to be. 

We can address it at that time. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Yes. Go ahead.

MR. JONAS: It is admitted, I assume, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Those are admitted.

MR. JONAS: If we can play the first segment of 

El-Mezain Wiretap No. 11-A. 

(Whereupon, El-Mezain Wiretap 11 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, who is SH?

A. That is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Who is MO?

A. That is the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, who is Abu Omar?

A. That is the nickname for Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. His Abu name?

A. Yes.

Q. His oldest son is named Omar?

A. Correct.

Q. Agent Burns, you see it says SB 210?

A. I see that.

Q. What is that? Do you know?

A. I think that is just an error on the screen. On the 

actual transcript that is Shukri Abu Baker SH saying 210.

Q. So that is just out of place?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Do you see where the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain 

says "In one lump sum"? 

A. Yes.

Q. Was the payment the $210,000 by Marzook to the HLF in one 

lump sum?

A. No.

Q. How many sums was it in?

A. Three sums, three transactions.

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Q. Do you see where it said -- the Defendant Shukri Baker 

said, "We have no relationship issue," and politics right 

above it. Was there a relationship between the Defendants, 

HLF, and Marzook at this time period and going back to 1988?

A. Yes. The documents that we have reviewed indicate -- 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I am going to object to the 

time period going back, because this call is in 1996.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: The documents that we reviewed, 

primarily on Thursday, but a few today, were dated in the late 

'80s up until that chart that we saw in 1991 where Mousa Abu 

Marzook was the head of the Palestine Committee of which the 

Holy Land Foundation and the Defendants Shukri Abu Baker and 

Mohammad El-Mezain were a part at that very time.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, did you review any evidence 

indicating that in fact there was telephonic contact between 

Marzook and the Defendants?

A. Yes.

Q. Are these phone calls that the FBI intercepted?

A. No. Primarily this information came from old telephone 

bills that were seized during search warrants and also what we 

call toll records, which are records from the phone company 

that were obtained by the FBI back during the time that -- or 

in, you know, the early to mid '90s.

Q. What time period do you have these phone records for?

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A. Approximately 1989 to early 1993, I think.

Q. Is there a reason why you don't have records for a later 

time period?

A. Well, we didn't have all the phone records, and I don't 

have all the phone numbers that the Defendants possibly could 

have used. So I am sure my records are incomplete, but I 

based my research on what I had available to me.

Q. Did you create a chart which summarizes the phone calls 

between the Defendants and Marzook?

A. Yes. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is this the chart that you are referring 

to?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this chart based upon the records you just testified 

about?

A. That is correct. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence what is marked as Marzook/Defendant Phone Calls. 

MS. HOLLANDER: May we approach about this exhibit, 

Your Honor?

THE COURT: All right. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

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MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, this exhibit was originally 

designated as a demonstrative exhibit by the Government, and 

then we learned yesterday that they are intending to, and I 

may be wrong about exactly when, but they are intending to 

introduce it as a summary. 

These are not voluminous records. This is not the kind 

of records that would come in substantive evidence under the 

summary rule. They are a demonstrative. So we object to it 

coming in as substantive evidence and as anything other than a 

demonstrative to illustrate the Agent's testimony.

MS. HOLLANDER: All they have are phone records. In 

other words, they have records of phone calls placed from a 

phone number to phone number, and I think this is misleading.

MS. CADEDDU: I also believe it is misleading, and I 

have some concerns about others of the Government's summary 

and demonstrative exhibits because they talk about the 

Defendants, or Defendants, and my client is not listed on any 

of those.

MR. WESTFALL: May I add one thing? 

THE COURT: One more.

MR. WESTFALL: I haven't heard a single thing that 

happened here, but for my purposes, they keep saying Marzook 

and the Defendants. My Defendant isn't in any of this, so I 

want to just ask for a limiting instruction, but I know you 

said we are going to take that -- I do not waive my ability to 

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get a limiting instruction before this jury, so how do you 

want to handle that? 

THE COURT: We just have to address that. I have 

not seen that exhibit. Do you have the Defendants, the names 

on there? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. The names are right there. 

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Okay. 

I think that does qualify as a summary. There are enough 

calls that it can come in as a substantive chart 106. And 

then I think it is self-explanatory. I understand the 

concerns you and Mr. Westfall have, but on its face it names 

the Defendants, and of course you are asking the witness that.

MR. JONAS: I will ask a clarifying question to make 

sure that we are not talking about the Defendants Abdulqader 

and Odeh.

MS. CADEDDU: I would like to object generally to 

the Government's statements "Have you seen evidence of such 

and such between this person and the Defendants." I mean, 

that implies that it is between other of the Defendants and it 

isn't. 

THE COURT: I don't know that the jury is catching 

all of that. The evidence that comes in will show who the 

calls are between, so I think the jury can understand what is 

going on.

MS. CADEDDU: I would just like -- If the Government 

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is going to talk about the Defendants, I would like them to 

perhaps say "some of the Defendants" instead of "the 

Defendants."

THE COURT: It is some of the Defendants. That 

would probably be good. 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Okay. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: All right. This is a chart, then, 

Marzook/Some of the Defendants Phone Calls? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: For the record, I would like to also 

admit the documents that Agent Burns referred to to support 

this chart, HLF Search Warrant No. 9 and HLF Search Warrant 

No. 10. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And Agent Burns, are those phone records 

HLF Search Warrant No. 9 and 10?

A. I am looking to make sure that is all of them, because I 

don't have a copy of the summary chart. There were --

Q. I know there are additional phone records, but HLF Search 

No. 9 and 10. 

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: Also Your Honor, I would like to 

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introduce Bell Atlantic No. 1 and Bell Atlantic No. 2. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, are those also phone 

records?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Also, Your Honor, South Central Bell. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, are those phone records as 

well?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: And lastly, Your Honor, is New Jersey 

Bell. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, are those phone records?

A. Yes. 

THE COURT: Any objections to HLF Search No. 9 and 

10, and then the Bell, South Central Bell and New Jersey phone 

records? 

MR. DRATEL: Just time frame.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, may I address Mr. Jonas? 

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And any other objections? Those 

exhibits are admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, just to be clear, there are 

three Defendants listed here?

A. That is correct.

Q. On the right. Defendant Shukri Baker, Defendant Mohammad 

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El-Mezain, and Defendant Ghassan Elashi. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And when we have been discussing the relationship between 

Marzook and some of the Defendants, does that include all five 

Defendants in this case, or all six if you include the HLF?

A. I am sorry. Can you repeat that? 

Q. Are there any Defendants that did not have this 

relationship with Marzook that we have been discussing, both 

monetarily in terms of financial transactions, and phone 

calls?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. The Defendants Mufid Abdulqader and Abdulrahman Odeh are 

not included on either the financial chart or the phone chart 

that we are discussing here.

Q. So the Defendants that had a relationship with Marzook 

are Defendants Shukri Baker, Mohammad El-Mezain, Ghassan 

Elashi, as well as the Holy Land Foundation?

A. The Defendants that had a relationship that I could 

establish.

Q. Can you walk us through this chart, Agent Burns?

A. Yes. Basically this chart just indicates phone calls 

between Marzook and the Defendants that are listed there. The 

numbers, the telephone numbers for Marzook that were analyzed 

are listed below Marzook's name. There were five of them; two 

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in Ruston, Louisiana. The 318 area code indicates the 

Louisiana numbers. And 703 are the phone numbers that he had 

once he moved to northern Virginia. 

And then the time periods and the number of calls are 

listed with an arrow indicating in which direction the phone 

calls were going. For example, if Marzook -- On the top line 

Marzook called the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker between January 

3rd, 1989 and January 22nd, 1990 25 times. 

And then on the other side it shows for the Defendant 

Shukri Abu Baker, the phone numbers that were analyzed to put 

together this chart. So those were the phone numbers 

belonging to Shukri Abu Baker that Marzook had telephonic 

contact with.

Q. And how soon -- How much time period -- Withdrawn. I 

wasn't phrasing that correctly. The donation or the money 

that Marzook gave to the HLF was in 1992, you stated. How 

soon before that was the first phone call between Marzook and 

Shukri Abu Baker?

A. Several years. 1989, January of 1989, so.

Q. And to be clear, did the FBI, as far as you know, 

intercept any of these phone calls?

A. No, they did not. There were no -- During the times of 

the calls referenced on this chart, there were no wiretaps of 

any of these individuals.

Q. Did the FBI intercept any phone calls at a later time 

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between Marzook and any of the Defendants listed here?

A. There may have been one that I am thinking of, but not 

anymore than that.

Q. Okay. And from your review of the evidence and from your 

review of these records, does this mean that there were no 

phone calls between Marzook and the Defendants after the last 

date on this chart?

A. No. As I said, I based this chart on the information 

that I had available to me. I could only base my research on 

what I had available.

Q. Did you try to get phone records going back to 1993 

forward?

A. By the time the criminal investigation was instituted in 

2001, a lot of older records, they were no longer maintained 

by the telephone companies. But in addition that, I also 

didn't have a complete listing of everyone's phone numbers, 

their cell phone numbers. Mousa Abu Marzook moved overseas in 

the mid '90s, or was overseas quite a bit. I don't have his 

numbers for over there.

Q. In the Defendant Shukri Baker's deposition that we have 

been referring to, did he discuss his relationship with 

Marzook?

A. He did.

Q. If you can turn to Baker Deposition, page 74, if you have 

it in front of you. I can hand you a copy, if you need. 

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A. I have it. I just have to find it.

MR. JONAS: If you can put it on the screen. I 

believe it is page 6 of the actual document. 

THE WITNESS: Okay.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) One moment to get it up on the screen. 

A. Excuse me, Mr. Jonas. To point out, I think that there 

is an error on that chart. That is what I wanted to check. 

The 317 area code is actually for Indiana, not California. 

That should be Indiana, not California.

Q. Okay. Thank you. 

MR. JONAS: Okay. If we can enlarge the top right 

hand page. That is 74 and 75. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, could you read what Shukri 

Baker said regarding his relationship with Marzook in this 

sworn deposition?

A. Yes. The question was, "How about Mr. Abu Marzook? Do 

you know who he is?" 

And Shukri Abu Baker's answer is, "Yes." 

Question: "Okay. Now, it's my understanding at some 

point he made a contribution to the Holy Land Foundation. Is 

that correct?" 

Answer: "Yes." 

Question: "Okay. And I want to ask you about that in a 

minute. Let's put that aside for the moment. Other than that 

contribution, are you aware of any relationship or involvement 

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that Mr. Abu Marzook had with the Holy Land Foundation?" 

Answer: "No."

Q. Did the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain also talk about his 

relationship with Mousa Abu Marzook in his deposition? 

A. He did.

Q. Do you have the El-Mezain Deposition before you?

A. I do.

Q. Do you have starting on page 57, line 15? And if you 

don't have that, I can hand you my copy. 

A. I do.

Q. Can you read from page 57, line 15, to page 59, line 10, 

please.

A. Okay. 

Question: "Now, have you actually met Abu Marzook?" 

Mohammad El-Mezain's answer is, "Yes." 

Question: "On how many occasions? Many occasions? One 

or two?"

Answer: "He was living in Fort Collins, Colorado." 

Question: "When you were there?"

Answer: "Yeah."

Question: "Did you socialize with Abu Marzook when you 

were in Fort Collins?" 

Answer: "Sometimes we sit in the mosque together, with 

the people of the mosque, basically." 

Question: "Other than your dealings with Mr. Abu Marzook 

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in the mosque in Fort Collins, did you have any other personal 

dealings with him?" 

Answer: "No. You cannot say personal dealings. 

Sometimes -- Sometimes he call, congratulate our festival or 

something like that. We go eat after or something like that."

Question: "Sometimes he called. When you say, 'our 

festival,' are you talking about an HLF festival?" 

Answer: "No. We as mosque" --

Q. Agent Burns, let me interrupt you. I believe in 

discussion with Defense counsel, that is not supposed to be 

mosque. That is supposed to be Muslims. But please continue. 

A. "We as Muslims have two festivals like the Christmas." 

Question: "Right. Like Ramadan?"

Answer: "After Ramadan." 

Question: "Okay." 

Answer: "This is before he left the country." 

Question: "Okay."

Answer: "After that, nothing more." 

Question: "When you say, 'He called us,' I guess I was 

confused. Who is 'us?'" 

Answer: "He called me."

Question: "He called you?" 

Answer: "Maybe once a year or something like that, or 

sometimes two, three years. It depends upon his call 

sometimes. But we don't have any relation, direct relation".

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Q. Agent Burns, let me interrupt you for a moment. How many 

calls did Marzook make to El-Mezain in the less than four-year 

period that is reflected on your chart?

A. Fifty-two times.

Q. And if he was calling him two or three times a year, per 

this deposition, during this time period alone, how many calls 

would there have been?

A. He actually says one a year or once every two or three 

years, so there would have only been a handful.

Q. Okay. Please continue. 

A. Question: "Okay. And these phone calls were around the 

time of the festivals, the holiday?"

Answer: "Yes."

Question: "Other than what you've described in terms of 

these phone calls Mr. Abu Marzook would make around the time 

of the festivals, your having sat with him in the mosque in 

Fort Collins, and the distant family relationship, do you have 

any other relationship with Mr. Abu Marzook over the course of 

the years?"

Answer: "No. Sometimes I saw him in the conferences."

Q. That is good enough. Thank you, Agent Burns.

Did you look to see if there was a correlation on the 

dates of the phone calls with any events going on at the Holy 

Land Foundation?

A. I did find a correlation with some of the calls.

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Q. And before I ask you that, I want to make sure that when 

you have a time range here for calls, and just using as an 

example the first one January 3rd, '89 to January 22nd, 1990 

with the phone calls to the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker, do you 

have the actual dates of those calls per the phone records?

A. Yes. You can actually go to the phone records and look 

for the telephone numbers referenced and see the actual call, 

the date, the length of time, et cetera.

Q. Okay. And in doing that, did you find a correlation 

between certain calls and certain events with the Holy Land 

Foundation?

A. Yes.

Q. What was your correlation?

A. On a couple of occasions I found that phone calls between 

the parties happened at the time of HLF board meetings.

Q. Okay. Did you find that on more than one time?

A. I did.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, I want to turn back to where we were 

earlier this morning, the Occupied Land Fund Disbursements 

1989 chart. Do you recall that?

A. I do.

MR. JONAS: If we can just pull that up real quick. 

I am being instructed I need to put it on the elmo, and I 

won't do that because I am moving on to another question. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) In that 1989 disbursement chart do you 

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recall seeing payments made to an organization known as the 

Islamic Relief Association?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the right title Islamic Relief Association? 

A. On the chart it says Islamic Relief. It is actually the 

Islamic Relief Committee or Association. The word translates 

to both.

Q. Okay. Did you create a sub-chart reflecting payments 

between the HLF and the Islamic Relief Association?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Do you have that chart before you?

A. I don't think I have the chart.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Just give me one moment, sir. May I 

approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Now do you have the chart?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And what is that chart based on?

A. This chart is based on search warrant material and also 

HLF bank records and some Islamic Relief Committee account 

records.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Government's Exhibit -- 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is it called on the sticker, Agent 

Burns?

A. It is called Payments to Islam RA.

MR. JONAS: I would offer into evidence Government's 

exhibit Payments to Islam RA. 

THE COURT: Counsel? That is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put the first page on the 

screen, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the title of the chart? I 

realize it is more expansive than on the sticker. 

A. "Payments to Islamic Relief Agency (Committee)."

Q. And what is the date of the first payment?

A. April 12th, 1991. 

Q. What does it go through? What is the last date of the 

payment on page 7?

A. February 15th, 1996.

Q. Now, you see where it says the Hamas designation-SDT 

1/23/95?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you explain again what that means, because we have 

some payments after that date?

A. The schedule lists the payments from the HLF to the 

Islamic Relief Committee chronologically, and the line there 

indicates the date of the designation so that you can 

determine which transactions occurred before and after the 

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designations.

Q. And are any of these transactions authorized by any of 

the Defendants in this case?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. The Defendant Ghassan Elashi, the Defendant Shukri Abu 

Baker. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time as supporting 

documents I would offer into evidence Government's Exhibit HLF 

Search No. 44.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, let's just look at the last 

transaction, the $40,000 transaction, February 1996. 

A. Uh-huh.

MR. JONAS: If we can put HLF Bank Account No. 1, 

page 732 on the screen.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is HLF Bank Account No. 1 a large 

exhibit?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And what is this document?

A. This is the signature card for that bank account.

Q. This is page 1 actually. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And whose name do you see on this card?

A. The Defendants Ghassan Elashi and Shukri Abu Baker.

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MR. JONAS: Can we get page 732, please, on the 

screen? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does this reflect -- this item reflect 

the payment to Islamic Relief?

A. This is part of the statement. I believe you have to 

scroll to some of the later pages to actually see the exact 

transaction.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see it here?

A. Yes. The wire transfer was dated February 15th, 1996 in 

the amount of $40,000. So if you look on the statement 

February 15th, you can scroll across and see wire transfer 

$40,000.

Q. How do you know that went to the Islamic Relief 

Association?

A. I believe if we scroll forward we will see the exact 

item. If not, then it is based on the search warrant records 

that are also referenced in the exhibit column.

Q. So the item that is telling you where this money went is 

contained either in the bank records or the search warrant 

records. 

A. They are referenced here, yes.

Q. And the schedule tells people where to go to find those 

items?

A. That is correct.

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Q. We are not going to go through every single page. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Did you find the letter in Elbarasse's material regarding 

a request for $100,000?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you have Elbarasse Search No. 17 before you?

A. I do.

Q. What is the date of that letter, if it is dated?

A. It is dated July 20th. Based on the content, we were 

able to put it in 1992.

Q. Okay. Do you have the author of the letter, who signed 

it?

A. It was signed in code.

Q. Is it addressed to anybody?

A. It is not.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Government's Exhibit Elbarasse Search No. 17. 

MS. MORENO: Subject to our previous objections, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. That is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you have in front of you 

InfoCom Search No. 3 as well?

A. I do.

Q. What is that item?

A. This is a project summary report for an HLF project with 

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the Islamic Relief Committee.

Q. Agent Burns, am I going somewhere with these random 

questions?

A. Yes, you are, I think.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Government's exhibit InfoCom Search No. 3. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And finally, Agent Burns, do you have 

Government's exhibit InfoCom Search No. 4 before you?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. What is that item?

A. It is also an HLF project summary report found at 

InfoCom. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I would offer into evidence 

Government's Exhibit InfoCom Search No. 3.

THE COURT: And you are also offering No. 4? 

MR. JONAS: I meant No. 4, yes, sir.

THE COURT: I thought you identified 3 and 4.

MR. JONAS: I believe I did No. 3, and I think that 

was admitted. 

THE COURT: You are right. It is admitted. No. 4 

is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, with regard to Elbarasse 

Search No. 17, with regard to some of these phone calls from 

Marzook, with regard to some of the bank records that we have 

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looked at, and for the moment I will talk about InfoCom Search 

No. 3, is there a correlation?

A. I found that certain circumstances and events happened 

during a relevant time period that all seemed to fit together.

Q. Okay. And did you create a chart that would demonstrate 

these events, a timeline, coming together?

A. I did I created a timeline.

Q. Do you have before you what has been marked as 

Demonstrative No. 8?

A. I do not have the demonstrative. 

MR. JONAS: May I have a moment, please?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we don't have a copy up 

here. I think we left ours downstairs.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you know what I am 

referring to when I refer to Demonstrative No. 8?

A. I do.

Q. Did you create Demonstrative No. 8?

A. Yes.

Q. And is it based upon the documents that are currently in 

evidence?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Demonstrative No. 8. 

MS. MORENO: Excuse me, Your Honor. I don't have it 

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so I can't -- I have seen it, but it is not in this particular 

group that I have, and I would object; hearsay, it is 

misleading, 403, it is inaccurate. 

THE COURT: And it is based on documents that are 

already in evidence, you say? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: It is admitted. Those objections are 

overruled. 

MS. CADEDDU: Can I clarify? It is admitted as a 

demonstrative? 

THE COURT: It is admitted as a demonstrative.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see on the screen 

Demonstrative No. 8?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you walk us through what is going on here?

A. I can. The first --

Q. Before you do that -- 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, there is one more exhibit I 

believe that is on this document that I didn't offer into 

evidence, InfoCom Search No. 22. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is InfoCom Search No. 22, Agent 

Burns?

A. It was a document seized from InfoCom that relates to the 

set of events that we are discussing.

MR. JONAS: I will offer into evidence InfoCom 

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Search No. 22.

THE COURT: Counsel? That is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: Agent Burns, if you can walk us through 

these series of events and the time frame they occur.

A. Okay. The first item listed on the timeline relates to 

exhibit Elbarasse Search No. 17, which is a letter that was 

found in the search warrant of Mr. Elbarasse's home, among a 

lot of other materials belonging to Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. Hold on a moment. 

MR. JONAS: Let's put that on the screen Elbarasse 

Search No. 17, please. We can look at that letter. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What language was that letter found in, 

by the way?

A. It was in Arabic.

Q. Did the FBI have it translated?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If you can put the next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, could you read that letter, 

please? It is fairly short. 

A. Yes. It says, "In the name of God the beneficent, the 

merciful. New daring operations for Ezz Eddin al-Qassam 

Brigades."

Q. Let me pause you for a moment. What is that Izz el-Din 

al-Qassam Brigades?

A. That is the Hamas military wing.

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Q. Have you seen that in some of the documents we have 

discussed?

A. Yes.

Q. The Hamas charter?

A. Yes.

Q. Please go on. 

A. Actually I don't believe it was in the Hamas charter, 

but, I mean, it has been in several of the documents that we 

have referenced.

Q. Okay. 

A. "In response to the martyrdom of the military leader of 

Ezz Eddin al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of the Islamic 

Resistance Movement, Hamas, the Brigades carried out a violent 

attack on a Zionist military patrol unit in the Jibalia region 

on Saturday July 18th. The attack led to the injury of a 

number of the patrol unit members, and the heroes of the 

Brigades returned safely to their bases. 

"It is a jihad for the sake of God. A victory or a 

martyrdom.

"We have bargains of very modern and different pieces of 

steel in front of us, and they are being offered to us for 

purchase now. Otherwise, they will be offered to Fatah. 

Therefore we hope" --

Q. Agent Burns, I am sorry. Have we seen Fatah in this 

case?

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A. Yes.

Q. What is Fatah?

A. It is basically the secular party in the Palestinian 

territories, the party of Yasser Arafat.

Q. Please continue.

A. "Therefore we hope that you send $100,000 very quickly to 

conclude the bargains before they are sold, as the positive is 

in dire need for them to replace the old pieces, all of which 

are not worth one new piece.

"Send us the approved budget for the company for month 7.

"Salah the treasurer still refuses to give us the sum of 

money. Contact him as our financial situation is difficult.

"Yesterday an agreement to solve Fatah's problem has been 

reached, and if the assaults continue we will respond to Fatah 

in the appropriate manner. 

"May God bless you. July 20th." 

Signed Seven Up.

Q. Were you ever able to determine who Seven Up is?

A. I don't know.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to Demonstrative No. 8 

now, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Please continue explaining this timeline. 

A. On July 30th, telephone records referenced here indicate 

that Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook placed a phone call to the 

Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

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Q. Let me ask you -- There are two pictures under that 

reference. Who are they?

A. The one on top is Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook and the 

one below is the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Please continue. 

A. Two days later Mousa Abu Marzook issued a $100,000 check 

to the HLF.

Q. Is that reflected on the summary schedule we looked at 

before of money moving from Marzook to the HLF?

A. It is. And the check is located in the bank account 

referenced, the exhibit referenced here.

Q. Is that part of the $210,000 that has been discussed?

A. Yes.

Q. Please continue. 

A. Five days later the Holy Land Foundation approved a 

project called Project 236 for $100,000 for prisoners' 

families through the Islamic Relief Committee. And the wire 

in that case was requested by the Defendant Ghassan Elashi.

Q. Is that a picture of the Defendant there?

A. It is.

Q. Continue.

A. Then four days later the HLF actually wired $100,000 to 

the Islamic Relief Committee for that project.

Q. Did you look at InfoCom Search No. 3, the project binder, 

which supported the $100,000 payment?

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A. Yes.

Q. And were you able to -- Based upon the documents 

contained within that project binder, were you able to account 

for the $100,000 being used for anything?

A. The project was very confusing. The initial 

documentation from the time -- 

MR. DRATEL: I object that the project was 

confusing, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: The time of the initial project in 

1992, the paperwork indicates that there was $100,000 to go to 

100 needy families. Attached to that were applications for 

approximately 100 families with a suggested amount to be 

issued to those families. Two years later -- 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am sorry. Before you go forward, 

roughly how much was the suggested amounts?

A. The suggested amounts varied, but on average about $200 

per family. 

Q. Did you figure out how much, based on those suggested 

amounts, should have gone to those 100 families?

A. Much less than $100,000. If you multiply on average $200 

for 100 families you have $20,000. 

But again, about two years later -- And if we could go to 

that exhibit, I can show you what I am talking about.

Q. Sure. Which page number? 

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A. Okay. If you go to page -- It is a very large exhibit 

because of the 100 families whose applications are attached.

Q. Are those 100 family applications, would that be 

supporting documentation for the wire transfer?

A. Correct. As I said, the initial paperwork said this 

$100,000 was to go to 100 needy family, and then approximately 

100 needy family applications were attached. 

If you go to 336 of the exhibit, which is --

Q. InfoCom Search No. 3?

A. Yes. This is the Arabic version of the document, and I 

believe the translation is hopefully just after this. Yes. 

Later, two years after the initial project, a final report was 

filed along with this indicating that $100,000 was issued to 

500 families.

Q. Did you find supporting documentation for 500 families?

A. No. As I said, the paperwork included the initial 100 

family applications.

Q. Did you look to see if the paperwork for the 400 

additional families were anywhere in the search warrant 

material?

A. I looked for Project 236, and I could not find any 

additional families that went along with this project.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, after this first initial $100,000 

transaction occurred, did you see something similar happen 

shortly thereafter?

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A. Yes, very shortly thereafter.

Q. Did you create a timeline as part of Demonstrative No. 8?

A. I did.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, if we can put on the second 

page of Demonstrative No. 8.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is happening now? This is how soon 

after the last event?

A. Very soon after the actual -- the last wire went over to 

the Islamic Relief Committee, but a week after or two weeks 

after everything started in the last chart.

Q. Go ahead. 

A. Okay. On August 10th, 1992, Hamas leader Mousa Abu 

Marzook placed another call to the Defendant Mohammad 

El-Mezain. On that same day he issued another check for 

$100,000 to the HLF. Two days later we located or there was a 

fax dated August 12th, 1992 found in the Elbarasse materials.

Q. Let me stop you for a moment. Is Elbarasse Search No. 18 

that fax?

A. It is.

Q. And does it relate to these transactions that you are 

testifying about?

A. It does.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am not sure if I offered 

Elbarasse Search No. 18 into evidence. I am doing so at this 

time, if I have not already.

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THE COURT: I don't show it in. Any objection to 

that? It is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: And why don't we pull up Elbarasse 

Search No. 18 and look at it. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. It is in Arabic. Is that correct, 

Agent Burns?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did the FBI translate it?

A. Yes.

Q. What page is the English on?

A. Well, at first if you look on the original in the Arabic 

it says from Islamic Relief Committee or Islamic REL Committee 

with the date August 12, 1992.

Q. Is that the same committee that we looked at the last 

financial summary chart of where payments began in the early 

'90s, I believe, and ended up after Hamas is designated?

A. We looked at the chart from the HLF the to Islamic Relief 

Committee. Correct.

Q. By the way, how much did HLF pay the Islamic Relief 

Committee in total?

A. Over $1.4 million.

Q. Okay. What is the first page of the English on this 

document?

A. It is page 10.

Q. And what is it about this document that drew your 

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attention?

A. It was addressed to the brothers, and it was found at 

Ismail Elbarasse's home, along with all these other documents 

that we have been talking about. And it is a request -- it is 

a letter, it is probably about eight pages long, the 

translation is, anyway, addressed to the brothers, and it 

reports on a visit of the individual who wrote the letter, to 

Palestine in 1992 around the same time of the events that we 

are discussing in these charts. 

If go to page 13 of the exhibit, and in the middle there 

where it says "Our beloved...our brothers" the author is 

saying -- Do you want me to read it? 

Q. Yes, please. 

A. "It is an appeal for help from your brothers to you, and 

from hearts full of wounds, hearts that are not shaken by 

tornados, and that are not moved by the wind to their brothers 

in the leadership of Hamas: Do not forsake your 

brothers...you fill the earth, and the Muslim Ikhwan are in 

every part of it. 

"And they tell you, 'Give us weapons and take men whom 

the world will recognize,' God willing, even if the criminals 

hate it and even if the Christians and those who stir up 

sedition hate it. 

"And if the hateful hate it. 

"Weapons...to protect your brothers who are threatened by 

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the eagles of treason, weapons to carry out Jihad operations 

and ask Khan Younis about the day of July 22nd."

Q. Is there anything else in that letter of note?

A. Yes. On the following page, page 14, the author under 

the third paragraph says, "Therefore, I appeal to you to take 

a quick action and find out the needs of the Inside so that 

the families of our brothers do not suffer more frustrations 

than what is already there. To my humble knowledge, the 

transfer channels are now open and without problems. 

Examining the delivery channels, placing each channel in its 

main purpose without using its funds for other channel means: 

No. 1 "The detainees and the needs of their families. 

Their funds are to be in a specific channel and distributed 

throughout The Strip.

"The martyrs. 

"Those afflicted among our brothers by the demolition of 

their homes and severance of income.

"The activities...and these are numerous and varying.

"The economic projects.

The Islamic University. 

"The Islamic Complex. 

"The Islamic Society."

Q. The Islamic Complex, is that an organization that we have 

already talked about the HLF sending money to?

A. It is.

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Q. Okay. Agent Burns, you say this came from the Islamic -- 

By the fax title, it came from the Islamic Relief 

Organization?

A. Yes. According to the fax title, that is where it came 

from.

MR. JONAS: And if we can go back to the timeline. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Please continue explaining.

A. Six days after the date of that fax, the HLF approved 

another $100,000 wire transfer for the Islamic Relief 

Committee. And the individuals that were indicated in that 

committee, and we can go to it in a minute, most of them were 

families of prisoners.

Q. Well, were you able to account for the $100,000 in this 

project, this $100,000 wire?

A. No. This project was the same as the last. The initial 

paperwork -- If we want to go to it, it is InfoCom Search No. 

4, page 1. You will see there in the middle it indicates that 

the $100,000 went to 100 families in Gaza and the West Bank. 

And all of the supporting documentation, the applications for 

the families that needed support is attached, again, 

approximately 100 families. And as I stated in that chart, a 

majority of the families were family members of people who 

were detained, and that documentation is contained herein. 

In this project as well as the other one, there was a 

report on page 3 is the Arabic version, that in November of 

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1994 was filled out. And I am not sure what page the 

translation is on. If it is not immediately after that we 

will have to scroll through for the translation. But 

basically it says the same thing as the previous one did--that 

there were 500 families sponsored.

Q. Did you find supporting documentation for 500 families in 

this project?

A. No, I did not.

Q. So again, if you are looking at 100 families at 

approximately $200 a family, $20,000 is accounted for?

A. That is true.

Q. And this wire was for $100,000?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the chart, please, 

the timeline. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What happened after the $100,000 was 

approved by Ghassan Elashi to send to the Islamic Relief 

Association?

A. The next day the money was actually sent, the $100,000 

was sent from the HLF to the Islamic Relief Committee.

Q. Thank you. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I know it is a few minutes 

early, but I am at a real good breaking point. 

THE COURT: Let's take a break. Be back at 1:45. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

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THE COURT: Agent, you may step down. 

Ma'am, on the front row with that magazine, let me see 

those documents you are holding up. I could read them from 

here. Come up here a minute. 

Everybody else can have a seat.

Mr. Jonas, do you want to take the documents there? 

Hand those to Mr. Jonas so I can see what it is you are 

holding up. I could read something. 

MR. JONAS: Evolution. The back part is disputed 

territories. 

THE COURT: Flip to the front. The magazine is 

open. I saw something. And then the other side. That is 

what I saw. That is what I read. 

That is inappropriate for you to have that in here, 

ma'am. And I heard that you were displaying it out in the 

hall earlier. That is totally inappropriate. We have jurors 

that are coming in and out. I don't know whether you are 

trying to influence jurors or not.

UNIDENTIFIED OBSERVER: I am just trying to be 

informed about this.

THE COURT: You can be here, certainly, and be 

informed, but it is not proper to try and influence. It is 

improper to be showing it in here and be carrying it out there 

where others can see that.

THE OBSERVER: I appreciate that. 

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THE COURT: Make sure you don't do that. That is 

totally inappropriate.

THE OBSERVER: Thank you very much. 

THE COURT: All right. We are in recess.

(Lunch Recess.)

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, may we approach?

THE COURT: Sure. Come on up. 

(The following was had outside the presence and 

hearing of the jury.) 

THE COURT: Here we are again.

MS. CADEDDU: Here we are again. I am sorry. 

Your Honor, I was unaware until today of the lady you 

called out and what she was doing. But I wanted to put on the 

record exactly what the article said and where she was sitting 

and what she was doing. 

But before I do that, it has come to our attention that 

people in the gallery have us that she was holding up another 

article that said "Hamas rock star" during the Government's 

playing my client's performances with the band during the 

video being played for those.

She also today was --

THE COURT: Last week? 

MS. CADEDDU: That was Thursday, yes, sir. 

And today during breaks she was showing that article to 

various people in the hallway. And then during the lunch 

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break, I actually saw this myself, she was pulled aside by the 

CSO who asked I think for identification, and then when that 

interchange was done, she and her friend went and stood next 

to two of the jurors who were waiting for an elevator and 

proceeded to have a conversation and paged through the 

documents. This was after you instructed her. 

THE COURT: Just now at the lunch break?

MS. CADEDDU: Yes. And to put on the record, the 

article that she was holding up for the Court said "Hate 

speech is not free speech." And she was sitting directly 

behind -- and I am not suggesting the Government had anything 

to do with it, but that is where she was sitting.

THE COURT: In the middle of the courtroom.

MS. CADEDDU: Yes. So what we would like to do is 

to make inquiry of her the next time she is here about whether 

she has had any interchanges with jurors and whether she has 

shown them any documents or had any discussions with them. I 

mean, this is obviously of a very great concern.

THE COURT: All right. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, if I may add, in addition to 

making the inquiry, admonish her again not to have inside or 

outside the courtroom, any contact with the jurors. She seems 

like a person on a mission.

THE COURT: Do you know her? 

MR. JONAS: No, sir. We have no idea who she is.

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MS. HOLLANDER: If I may add a little bit, she is 

also drawing pictures, and I don't think we can stop her from 

this.

THE COURT: We might, depending on what she is 

drawing.

MS. HOLLANDER: She is drawing counsel. She was 

drawing one of the Defendants' and daughter.

MS. MORENO: Only if it is flattering to me. 

Otherwise -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: But I just want to make that part of 

the record, that that is what she is doing, and she was 

writing in Hebrew.

THE COURT: Okay. Just remind me next time she is 

in, and we will find a good time to break and I will talk to 

her about that, and I will talk to the CSOs and see what they 

saw as far as with having any contact. 

MR. JACKS: I might have missed, how do we know what 

the articles were about or anything? 

THE COURT: I don't know what they were about, but 

what I saw it said "Hate speech is not free speech." Of 

course, that is related to what is going on here, and we don't 

need that.

MR. JACKS: I understand.

THE COURT: She got up, as soon as they said, "All 

rise for the jury," she stood up and I saw that right away. 

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So I know the jury could see if they were looking. The jury 

is coming this way, so hopefully nobody saw it. But by the 

time she came up to Barry, she had already flipped the page 

and that is not what was showing, so it she indicated to me 

she knew, she was hiding it. And I had already heard that 

there was somebody showing something, but wasn't real 

specific. But when I saw that -- I knew it was her, but then 

when I saw that, that just caught my attention right away. 

MS. CADEDDU: Just for the record, Your Honor, the 

reason we know what the article said that she was showing to 

people is because she actually showed it to Ms. Hollander's 

paralegal. The article said, "Hamas' rock star," and was 

showing her "Is this Mufid? Is this his picture? This is 

Mufid Abdulqader And so she approached her without knowing who 

she was or who she was associated with. 

THE COURT: In the courtroom or in the hall? 

MS. CADEDDU: I believe in the hallway on a break. 

And of course our jurors are milling around with everyone 

else. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, two other quick things 

before we break here. I talked with Mr. Jonas, and with the 

Court's permission these 106 issues that keep coming up, if 

you don't mind, we would prefer to raise those on cross.

THE COURT: Yeah. I don't mind. That is generally 

the cleaner way to do it, rather than having to have this.

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MR. CLINE: The Government will reserve its 

objections under 106 to particular things we want to put in, 

but it won't argue we are too late because we are doing it on 

cross.

THE COURT: At that point I don't think it is even a 

106. If it is relevant you are entitled to cross on something 

that you think is relevant and get it in. 106 is a 

contemporaneous issue, and then you have to read it and take a 

look at everything. That is not a decision that I can always 

make just real quick. It takes some time.

MR. CLINE: So we will do that on cross.

THE COURT: I think you will get a lot more latitude 

on cross. 

MS. HOLLANDER: But it can still be a 106 on cross? 

THE COURT: If you want to call it that. I just 

generally call it cross.

MR. WESTFALL: Just related writings and the rest of 

the documents will come into evidence.

THE COURT: 106, I see this as a narrow rule. It is 

something that should be considered contemporaneous, and that 

is a narrow rule. I generally like to do it, prefer that you 

do it on cross, and you can get into whatever you want to on 

cross, if it is relevant.

MR. CLINE: The other thing is--again, I took this 

up with Mr. Jonas--we had the discussion this morning about 

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giving the Government on cross exhibits, which we will do. 

Mr. Jonas has agreed on behalf of the Government, and I agree 

on behalf of all the Defense, that we will not show that list 

to the witness who is on cross so that if there is an element 

of surprise to be had, we will preserve it, but the Government 

can prepare.

THE COURT: I think that is the way to handle it.

MS. MORENO: And also that may not be exhaustive, 

depending upon what testimony the witness --

THE COURT: I understand.

MR. CLINE: We will make a good faith effort to do 

that.

THE COURT: You should know most of it, but if 

something comes up we can all live with that. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I want to get back and talk 

about the Palestine Committee. 

A. Okay.

Q. Did the Palestine Committee have any meetings that were 

recorded by the FBI?

A. Yes.

Q. And is there one in particular that stands out in your 

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mind?

A. There is.

Q. When did that meeting occur?

A. October 2nd and 3rd of 1993.

Q. I am sorry. Could you repeat that?

A. October 2nd and 3rd of 1993.

Q. Where did it take place?

A. At a Courtyard by Marriott in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Q. With regard to the Israeli-Palestinian issues, what was 

going on at that time?

A. The Oslo Peace Accords had just been signed.

Q. Did the FBI record this entire meeting?

A. They did.

Q. And was the recording transcribed into a transcript?

A. Yes. A majority of the conversation was in Arabic, and 

there were English transcriptions of the conversations, and I 

have reviewed those.

Q. Okay. Generally speaking, what was the purpose of the 

meeting?

A. The purpose of the meeting was for the Palestinian 

Committee members to discuss how they were going to continue 

to operate in the United States in light of the signing of the 

peace accords between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Q. Okay. For purposes of your testimony, would it be fair 

to call this the Philadelphia meeting or the Philly meeting?

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A. Yes.

Q. Were there planning conversations on the 

call -- Withdrawn. Did any of the Defendants or any of the 

participants have any phone calls where they discussed the 

planing of the Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. And were those phone calls intercepted by the FBI?

A. Some of them were, yes.

Q. Do you have what has been marked Ashqar Wiretap No. 1?

A. I do.

Q. And can you remind us who Ashqar is?

A. Ashqar is one of the members of the Palestinian Committee 

that we saw on the list. Also his home is the one that was 

searched in that covert search in December of '93.

Q. With regard to Ashqar Wiretap No. 1, who are the 

participants in this call?

A. Abdel Haleem Ashqar, the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker, and 

Omar Yehia, also known as Omar Ahmad.

Q. What is the date of the call?

A. September 13th, 1993. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Ashqar Wiretap No. 1 and 1-A. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. .

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And again, Agent Burns, is this the whole 

call that we have, or are we offering into evidence a redacted 

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version? 

A. We are offering portions of the call.

Q. All right. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play the portions that we 

have, please.

(Whereupon, Ashqar Wiretap No. 1 was played while 

questions were propounded.) 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, this is moving pretty fast. 

Do you know why it is going fast, the words on the screen?

A. It is my understanding that the language specialist and 

the technical people tried to marry up the actual Arabic that 

is spoken with the English on the screen, and they are 

speaking very fast on the phone, so the print is going to run 

very fast on the screen.

MR. JONAS: With Your Honor's permission, I may stop 

it every few moments just to let everyone catch up. 

THE COURT: Sure.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, who is OM?

A. That is Omar Ahmad.

Q. And who is SH?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. It said a moment ago Association and Fund. Where have we 

seen those names?

A. The Association is the IAP, and the Fund is the Occupied 

Land Fund or the Holy Land Foundation.

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THE COURT: I don't know that the jury remembers 

always what these acronyms are.

THE WITNESS: The Islamic Association for Palestine, 

the IAP.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And where have we seen the IAP and the 

HLF together?

A. Organizations that were part of the Palestine Committee.

Q. Do you see where Omar mentions Abu Ibrahim?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

A. That is the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Do you know who Aboul Hasan is?

A. Aboul Hasan is the nickname for Abdel Haleem Ashqar, who 

is also a participant in this call.

Q. Would that be AB, the next person speaking?

A. That is correct.

Q. Who is Abu Mohamed? 

A. Shukri Abu Baker uses the name Abu Mohamed, but I believe 

Omar Ahmad also uses that nickname. 

Q. Agent Burns, they mentioned an individual who is out in 

the media all the time. Did they say that person's name?

A. They did.

Q. Who is that person?

A. Mohamed Helmy.

Q. Do you know who he is?

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A. There is a Mohamed Helmy Jerad in the Chicago area that I 

believe he is referring to.

Q. Is he part of the Palestine Committee?

A. He was at one point.

Q. Agent Burns, what does the UI mean in brackets?

A. Unintelligible. That means the translator couldn't 

understand exactly what was being said there. 

Q. Where Shukri Baker says, "Because of the Friday sermon 

that one gets the Foundation in grave trouble," what is the 

Foundation? 

A. The Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Agent Burns, again Abu Ibrahim is who?

A. Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Agent Burns, there is a discussion of papers and writing. 

From your review of the Philadelphia transcript, were papers 

presented to the participants?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. And what does that mean?

A. Well, the Philadelphia meeting was separated into 

sessions based on topics, and individuals wrote papers 

regarding certain topics, like media and charity work, and 

presented those papers to the meeting attendees and they 

discussed the papers.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, do you see where it says SC in 

parentheticals?

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A. I do.

Q. Do you know what that means?

A. Simultaneous conversation.

Q. Two people speaking at once?

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you see where it says "Haitham from the Fund"?

A. I do.

Q. Who is Haitham?

A. Haitham Maghawri from the HLF.

Q. What was his role at the HLF his title?

A. He originally had a different office, but he ultimately 

became the executive director later on.

Q. Agent Burns, do you see where it says, "But at people who 

have experience about the inside ought to write their visions 

about the inside, have we seen the term inside in this case 

already?

A. Yes.

Q. What does that mean?

A. Again, that means inside the Palestinian territories.

Q. That would be the West Bank and Gaza?

A. That is correct.

Q. Agent Burns, was there another call where there was a 

discussion about the meeting prior to the meeting taking 

place?

A. There was.

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Q. Do you have before you Ashqar Wiretap No. 2?

A. I do.

Q. Who are the participants in this call?

A. Abdel Haleem Ashqar and Omar Yehia, also known as Omar 

Ahmad.

Q. What is the date of this call?

A. This one is dated September 27th, 1993. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Ashqar Wiretap No. 2. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: I don't think we are going to play this 

one. I think we are just going to read the first page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you have that in front of 

you? 

A. I do.

THE COURT: Do you also want to offer 2-A? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you for 

reminding me. No. 2-A.

THE COURT: Those are admitted. 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir. 

MR. JONAS: Page 2.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, if you can just read this 

first page, and I will let you know when to stop. 

MR. DRATEL: Can we get a date of the conversation? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns do you know the date of the 

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call?

A. Yes. It is September 27, 1993.

Q. Do you see where the date is on the transcript?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. If you can read the first page or the second page 

of the transcript, the first page where there is actually 

conversation, and I will let you know when to stop. 

A. Okay. The first speaker AB is Ashqar, and he says, "By 

God, no. I mean, nothing. May God protect you. Everything 

is fine. Nothing new. May God bless you." Abou Mohamed Isam 

is coming."

"Who?"

"Isam." 

"Okay, good God willing."

"I am just waiting for what's his name, Riyad, to send me 

a reply about the other three, who are Yousif, Salah, and Al 

Hanooti."

"Oh, has not Salah answered you yet?"

"By God, my brother, I -- I couldn't get ahold of him. 

So, God willing, I will catch him tomorrow, I mean. I didn't 

find him yesterday. And I contracted him a while ago, but 

nobody answers, I mean, so -- "

"Good."

"Good. But I don't know -- "

"Now, it will become how many, six people, I mean, will 

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come."

"Hmm. What's his name, Al Hanooti, Salah as well, Riyad, 

Abou Ibrahim, and Isam. That makes it six, I mean".

"Jawad."

"No. I meant from New Jersey. Six, I mean."

"Abou Ibrahim, Riyad, and Isam. Those three are for 

sure."

Q. Agent Burns, you can stop there. And Abuo Ibrahim is?

A. The defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And where was he living at the time this call took place?

A. In New Jersey.

Q. Looking at the rest of this transcript, generally what do 

they talk about?

A. Who will be attending the Philadelphia meeting.

Q. Is this really following on the heels of the last call 

that we played?

A. It does.

Q. Agent Burns, in the course of the material that you 

reviewed, did you come across any written itinerary for the 

Philadelphia meeting?

A. I did.

Q. Do you have before you Ashqar Search No. 4?

A. I do.

Q. Where did that document come from?

A. That came from the covert search of the home of Abdel 

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Haleem Ashqar.

Q. And Ashqar was a participant in that first call we just 

played planning the meeting?

A. In both of the calls that we just discussed.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Ashqar Search No. 4. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, 

please, starting with the first page. The next page.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, the first page it 

said -- Withdrawn. What language is this document in?

A. Arabic.

MR. JONAS: And if we can go to page 4, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the title of this document?

A. "Future of Islamic Action for Palestine in North America 

seminar, 2-3 October, 1993."

Q. The title "Islamic Action for Palestine," have we seen 

that title used in any of the documents you testified about 

already?

A. Yes. I believe it has been in several, most prominently 

in the October 1992 internal memorandum from the international 

Muslim Brotherhood.

Q. That was one of the Elbarasse documents you testified 

about?

A. That is correct.

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Q. On this particular document, just summarize it for us so 

we don't need to read the whole thing. 

A. Basically it lists under No. 1 the goals of the seminar, 

the Philadelphia meeting. No. 2, describes how the sessions 

will be moderated and lists the names of like, for example, 

session moderator under the first session, if you will scroll 

down, is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker. So it identifies the 

topic of the first session, the people who will participate, 

the individual who is moderating. 

And the same thing for the second session, which is 

charity work, and identifies who will present the papers, and 

who will be moderating the session.

And on the next page it identifies the topic of the third 

session, and who would be presenting papers, and the moderator 

of the session.

Q. Thank you. 

Agent Burns, did you create a summary chart identifying 

who attended the session and the documents that you reviewed 

that helped you identify those people? 

A. Yes.

Q. What did you base your summary chart on?

A. We based the summary chart on a variety of different 

exhibits--the planning phone calls that we just listened to, 

the actual meeting transcripts themselves, and in the 

transcripts we were able to identify some of the speakers at 

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the conference. 

There were also records from the search warrant 

indicating -- like American Express bills indicating plane 

tickets that were purchased for individuals. In addition, 

there were records obtained from the Marriott Hotel at the 

time the meeting took place.

Q. What Marriott?

A. I believe it was Courtyard by Marriott in Philadelphia. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, may I approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I am holding up for you what 

has been marked as Philly Meeting Summary. Is this the chart 

that you prepared based upon the records you talked about of 

who attended the Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes, we prepared that.

Q. Would this aid the jury in your testimony this afternoon?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Philly Meeting Summary. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MR. DRATEL: I am going to object, Your Honor, 

because it is misleading with respect to Mr. El-Mezain. It 

says the meeting. He wasn't at the meeting. The Government 

acknowledges that. 

MR. JONAS: Agent Burns is going to explain exactly 

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that.

THE COURT: That entry? Okay.

MS. CADEDDU: I would object for the same reason, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Those objections are overruled. That 

Philadelphia Meeting chart is admitted.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, let me first start by asking 

you, the enlargement of this exhibit has tape over a couple of 

spots. Why is that?

A. They were corrections made at the last minute.

Q. Okay. The one on the screen, is that the corrected 

version, the one that is the actual exhibit?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Can you first walk us through this by explaining 

across the top what the row is?

A. Well, the first column would be the attendees, the name 

of the individual that we will be discussing. 

The next column are the organizations that the individual 

belonged to according to the evidence that we have discussed. 

The next column is a column which references AMEX No. 1, 

which is an exhibit that we will be discussing here. If that 

individual appeared in those records as having attended the 

Philadelphia meeting, there will be a checkmark by that 

individual's name under that column. 

The next column is Marriott Hotel records, which were the 

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records that were obtained from the Marriott Hotel at the time 

of the conference. If the individual Defendant's name appears 

in those records, a checkmark will appear across from his name 

under that column. 

The next column is listed "speaker at conference," and we 

have 18 transcripts of conversations that took place during 

the conference that were recorded. If the individual either 

self-identified or his voice was identified by the language 

specialist as speaking at the conference, there will be a 

checkmark under his name on the chart.

Next, there were some surveillance photos that were taken 

by FBI agents back in 1993 of the meeting, and if individuals 

could be positively identified in any of the surveillance 

photos, there is a check under that column by their name. 

And then finally, the last column is for planning phone 

calls, and if the individuals were mentioned as being invited 

to attend the conference in those calls, there will be a 

checkmark by that individual's name under that column.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would like to 

offer into evidence the supporting documentation for this 

chart, to the extent some of it is not already admitted. We 

have AMEX No. 1. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And Agent Burns, whose records are AMEX 

No. 1?

A. AMEX No. 1 are records obtained from the -- I am looking 

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to make sure I am right, because we had American Express 

records from two different places. From American Express.

Q. Whose American Express records are they?

A. The Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we also offer to admit 

Marriott. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is Marriott? What exhibit is that?

A. Marriott is the name of the exhibit for the Marriott 

Hotel records.

MR. JONAS: We offer to admit Philly Meeting No. 1 

through 18. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is that?

A. Those are the English transcriptions of the conversations 

at the meeting.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I will have to explain in a 

moment what we did with those. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And finally Philly Pictures 1 through 6?

A. Those were some of the surveillance photos that agents 

took back then.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, with Philly Meeting No. 1 

through 18, which are the transcripts of this meeting that 

took place, we are offering it a little bit differently than 

the intercepted calls. We are offering the whole conference 

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into evidence. And I will have Agent Burns explain in a 

moment why it is divided into 18. So the audio disk, which 

would be Philly Meeting No. 1-A is a disk of that whole tape 

for that section. 

But in addition, we are offering an excerpted transcript. 

So we have the full transcript and then an excerpted 

transcript, and that is Philly Meeting E. So if we have for 

example, No. 1 would be the full transcript, 1-A is the audio, 

and 1-E is the excerpt of that particular session of Philly.

THE COURT: You are offering No. 1, 1-A and 1-E.

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir, through No. 18, 18-A, and 

18-E. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I just have a question. We don't 

have any objection to these, but is that the entire Philly 

meeting? 

MR. JONAS: No. 1 through 18 is the entire Philly 

meeting. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Okay. We don't object, as long as 

it is the entire meeting. 

MR. JONAS: That is my understanding.

THE COURT: And the AMEX records is AMEX No. 1? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. 

MS. HOLLANDER: We don't object to the others. 

THE COURT: All right. Those are admitted, then.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, first of all, why is there 

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18 tapes or transcripts of the Philadelphia meeting?

A. As I understand it, back in 1993 the equipment that the 

FBI used to record these conversations, it was some type of 

tape. I don't know if it was a cassette tape, or I believe it 

may have actually been one of those old reel to reels. But 

they were limited in length, so that once one was filled up 

they would have to remove it and replace it with a new tape. 

So we have a transcript for each tape that was made. So there 

were approximately 18 tape recordings of that meeting.

Q. And did the FBI record this meeting pursuant to a court 

order?

A. They did.

Q. Was this part of the intelligence investigations of 

certain individuals?

A. It was the intelligence investigation of Ashqar.

Q. Agent Burns, there is a blank line about six names, seven 

names up from the bottom between the name Abu Ahmad and 

Mohammad El-Mezain. Can you explain why that is?

A. Yes. Originally when preparing this chart there were 

individuals who were invited to attend the conference based on 

the planning calls, but that we affirmed did not attend for 

one reason or another. Those individuals were to be listed 

below that line as having been invited but not having 

attended. 

However, there is I believe an error in that the second 

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individual listed, Mohamed Al Hanooti, should appear above the 

blank line, as there is other evidence that he did in fact 

attend.

Q. Is that other evidence contained within the evidence 

admitted?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Agent Burns, I just want to pull up some of these 

documents?

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up AMEX 1, page 6, 

please. 

Your Honor, I assume, just for the record, they are all 

admitted, the documents I offered into evidence?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see any individuals 

who went to the Philadelphia conference on this page with 

particular charges?

A. Yes. I am going to look at my hard copy because it is a 

little bit difficult to read on my screen.

Q. We will zoom in as soon as you tell me which one to zoom 

in on.

A. Okay. Third from the top on the left side there, item 

No. 27 I believe it is called.

Q. Who is being paid for here?

A. Okay. On this -- Again, this is an American Express 

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bill. It lists the transaction date, which would be the date 

of purchase. It does not list the date of travel. So this 

shows that on September 3rd, 1993, a ticket was purchased for 

Haitham Maghawri from Dallas to Philadelphia. We do not know 

the exact travel date for that ticket.

MR. JONAS: Page 11, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is traveling now to Philadelphia?

A. At the bottom, the two entries there show that on 

September 10th, 1993, airline tickets were purchased for 

Shukri Abu Baker the Defendant, and also the Defendant Ghassan 

Elashi, from Dallas to Philadelphia.

MR. JONAS: Page 12, please. 

THE WITNESS: I guess the entire middle section you 

can highlight. 

This shows that on September 16th up in the upper left 

corner, September 16, 1993, that the Holy Land Foundation 

purchased an airline ticket for G. Saleh, who is Ghassan 

Saleh, from Dallas to Philadelphia. 

Moving across the page, on September 17th, 1993, the Holy 

Land Foundation purchased an airline ticket for O. Amhad to 

Philadelphia, which would be Omar Ahmad.

Q. If I can interrupt you for a moment. Where have we seen 

Omar Ahmad's name on the Elbarasse documents?

A. Well, he was listed with the IAP, but also with the 

Palestine Committee, on the Elbarasse list of Palestinian 

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Committee members and the Ashqar list of Palestinian Committee 

members. 

Q. And was he involved in that planning phone call that we 

played for this meeting?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. You testified that these are the HLF AMEX records?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Omar Ahmad an employee of the HLF?

A. No, he was not.

Q. Was he a board member?

A. No.

Q. Was he an officer?

A. No.

Q. Based upon the material that you reviewed, did he have 

any role with the HLF?

A. Only in respect to his role in the Palestinian Committee.

Q. Okay. Thank you. 

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 14, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Whose tickets are the HLF paying for 

here?

A. This is Sharif Battikhi, the second from the top on the 

left column.

Q. We saw his name in a document the other day, didn't we?

A. We did.

Q. Who is he?

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A. In 1991, he was appointed as a member of the HLF's board 

of directors.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 12, back to page 

12. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see any hotel bills here?

A. Yes. In the bottom on the it shows that the HLF paid the 

Courtyard by Marriott in Philadelphia $116.41. And you can 

see the arrival and departure dates, so presumably this would 

be one room, october 1st through October 3rd.

MR. JONAS: Page 13, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Are they paying for more hotel rooms?

A. Yes. This entire page is filled with charges to the Holy 

Land Foundation's American Express bill for rooms at the 

Courtyard by Marriott in Philadelphia for that time period.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to page 1 on this 

exhibit. Enlarge the top half, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do we see -- I just want to confirm it 

says whose credit card this is?

A. The Holy Land Foundation, specifically Shukri Abu Baker's 

card.

Q. And do you see any other individual's names who have 

access to this card?

A. It says card member names down below, Shukri Abu Baker, 

the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain, and Haitham Maghawri.

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Q. Okay. Agent Burns, let's look at the Philly Pictures. 

If we can put up on the screen Philly Picture 1. You 

testified these are surveillance photos?

A. They are.

Q. Do you recognize this individual?

A. This person was identified as Ismail Elbarasse.

Q. And who is he again?

A. One of the IAP members; again, one of the Palestinian 

Committee members, whose home was search where we obtained 

most of these documents in Arabic that we have been 

discussing.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Philly Picture No. 2, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you recognize this individual?

A. Yes. This is a side view of the Defendant Ghassan Elashi 

in front of the hotel.

MR. JONAS: Philly Picture No. 3, please. 

THE WITNESS: This is a picture of the Defendant 

Shukri Abu Baker and Ghassan Elashi.

MR. JONAS: Philly Picture No. 4, please. 

THE WITNESS: Again, the Defendants Shukri Abu Baker 

and Ghassan Elashi.

MR. JONAS: No. 5, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you recognize these individuals?

A. The individual carrying the box is Haitham Maghawri and 

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the other individual has been identified as Mohamed Al 

Hanooti.

Q. Is Mohamed Al Hanooti a member of the Palestine 

Committee?

A. Yes.

Q. Pursuant to the Elbarasse documents you have looked at?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: And finally No. 6. 

THE WITNESS: The individual in the very back in the 

glasses with the tie has been identified as Abdel Haleem 

Ashqar.

Q. And are there some other individuals who just happened to 

get in the picture?

A. I don't know who they are.

Q. Okay. I want to quickly go to the Marriott records. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Marriott page 1, 

please. Whose bill is this?

A. It has Shukri Baker's name at the top.

MR. JONAS: Next page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Whose bill is this one?

A. Ghassan Saleh.

Q. Who is that?

A. This individual is Muin Shabib.

Q. Did you hear him on the tape speaking in Philadelphia?

A. They spoke about him in the call, in the planning call, 

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and that he would be an attendee.

Q. And was he actually there?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. What does this one indicate?

A. This, and a few of the following pages, are of the little 

signature cards that you sign at the hotel when you check in. 

This one is in the name, and you can see the original name it 

was in was Hasan Sabri, and then /Maghawri was written in, and 

it was signed at the bottom by Haitham Maghawri, the HLF 

officer.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Next. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is happening here?

A. Again, this one says has the name Hasan Sabri with a line 

through it and then has Ghassan Saleh and Riad Ahmed written 

beside it. And I can't tell by whom it is signed.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Next. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Which one is this?

A. This one is for room 227 under the name of M. Abdulqader 

of Richardson, Texas.

Q. Who is that?

A. That would be the Defendant Mufid Abdulqader.

Q. It says void across it. Does that mean he wasn't there?

A. He had to have been there because he signed the card, and 

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that is his actual signature at the bottom. I don't know if 

the room was canceled -- I don't know why the word void was on 

there, but he had to have at least been present at the hotel 

to sign the signature card.

Q. What does it say in the top right hand side of this 

document?

A. It says "Believe to move to 307 or 301."

MR. JONAS: Let me jump to page 13 the Marriott 

records. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this one?

A. This one is the signature hard for room 401 originally in 

Hasan Sabri's name, then Mohammad El-Mezain's name is noted, 

and Haitham Maghawri signed for the room.

Q. Okay. Thank you. Did Mohammad El-Mezain attend?

A. No, he did not.

Q. Was that discussed in the Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the reason for him not attending?

A. He was ill and not able to attend.

Q. Outside of the meeting did any of the Defendants publicly 

discuss what the purpose of the meeting was?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. If you have before you Baker Declaration, which is 

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already in evidence. 

A. I do. Bear with me one second while I find it.

Q. Sure. 

A. I have it.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to the third page, 

please, and put that on the screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) The bottom half where it says F, can you 

read that, please, Agent Burns?

A. Yes. He says in his sworn statement, "The 1993 

Philadelphia meeting was a meeting of Islamic intellectuals, 

academicians, community leaders, and representatives of 

American Islamic organizations, such as ours. It was not a 

meeting of any organization. No decisions were made by any 

organization about anything. Everyone there spoke their 

minds."

Q. At the Philly meeting was there an announcement made as 

to the actual purpose of the meeting?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, if we can play Philly 

Meeting 1 the first tape, segment B, please.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 1, Segment B was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Did you see where it says, "Abou Ibrahim 

should have been with us but he is at the hospital for those 

that don't know"?

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A. Yes.

Q. Is that your explanation for why Mohammad El-Mezain 

wasn't there, to your understanding?

A. Yes.

Q. In Shukri Baker's declaration did he say this is a 

meeting of the Palestine Committee?

A. No, he doesn't.

Q. Do you see where it says "union"?

A. I do.

Q. Is that correct?

A. It is correct, but it is not the -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Excuse me. Who is speaking? The 

tape doesn't say who is speaking.

THE WITNESS: Omar Ahmad is the individual who is 

speaking in clip 1. Clip 2 I have to see the beginning of it.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) We are still on clip 1. 

A. We are still on clip 1? Then it was Omar Ahmad.

Q. It says "union." Is that supposed to be Union?

A. Union was originally how the word for association was 

translated. That should be association, meaning the Islamic 

Association for Palestine.

Q. I was corrected. This is the B clip, not the A clip. 

Does it say who the speaker is on the transcript? If it would 

help, I can give you mine. 

A. I have it. Omar Ahmad.

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Q. Okay. When Omar Ahmad announced that this was a meeting 

of the Palestine Committee, was Shukri Baker in the room? 

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because he spoke like within a minute before Omar Ahmad 

announced this.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 3 of the excerpt. 

If we can get that on the screen, please, Philly meeting 1-E, 

page 3. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see that, Agent Burns?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Do we see Shukri Baker speaking?

A. Yes, we do.

Q. Does this area, this excerpt identify what his role is to 

be in this conference?

A. It does. It indicates that -- would you like me to read 

it? 

Q. Sure. Go ahead. 

A. Omar Ahmad says, "The third session, who has papers? 

Gawad. The third session, who has papers for it? From the 

beginning, the first session we have Sheik Sharif and brother 

Abdel Salam, brother Gawad, and Aboul Hasan, Abdel Halim. 

Anyone else? Did you write them down? The second session, 

guys, stay with me so that we could finish. The second 

session we have Osama, Mo'een, and Shukri Abu Baker. And it 

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will be about charity work. Anyone else? The third session 

will be about political media and popular activism and PR. We 

have Ghassan, Saleh, Gawad, and Abdel Rahman, Nihad and Akram. 

Anyone else? Who is going to be the moderator of the 1st 

session?" 

And he goes on, and down farther where Ghassan is 

speaking he says, "Regarding the 1st session, Shukri should be 

the moderator."

Q. By the way, Agent Burns, does each transcript, for either 

the full transcript or the excerpted transcript, identify the 

speakers for that particular transcript?

A. Yes. On the very first page of each transcript.

Q. So where we have initials on the attributions as to who 

is speaking, all one has to do is go to the first page of the 

transcript and they can see who that person is. Is that 

correct?

A. That is correct. And with each transcript, different 

speakers will probably be identified. So on one transcript 

you may have five or six people, and on another transcript you 

may have ten people.

Q. And did Shukri Baker in fact moderate any sessions?

A. He did.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, did Shukri Baker the Defendant talk 

about presenting a cover for this Philadelphia meeting in case 

anyone asks?

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A. He did.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Philly Meeting No. 3. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Before I ask you about that one, did they 

jump around in subject matter during their sessions?

A. Yes. As you can see, the conference was organized into 

sessions according to topic, but they did venture off of topic 

on several occasions, and then they would try to get back on 

topic. But they do venture around.

Q. Okay. So we may venture around ourselves, then?

A. Yes, we will be doing that.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Philly Meeting No. 3, 

page 3. This is the excerpted one, Philly Meeting No. 3-E. 

THE WITNESS: I have it.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do can you have it before you?

A. I do.

Q. This is a short one so we will just read it. Do you see 

the second from the top segment? Can you read what Shukri 

Baker says about the meeting?

A. "My brothers, this talk is to be continued, God's 

willing. There are remarks now. Please don't mention the 

name Samah in an explicit manner. We agree on saying it as 

sister Samah. We will talk about her honor, and the session 

is -- the session here is a joint workshop between the Holy 

Land Foundation and the IAP. This is the official form. I 

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mean, please in case some inquired."

Q. Agent Burns, going back to your Philly Meeting Summary 

Chart, under organizations you list several organizations--PC, 

HLF, IAP, depending upon the individual. Can you explain 

that, please?

A. Yes. Individuals who are affiliated with various 

organizations, according to the evidence that has already been 

presented, their affiliations are noted in that column. For 

example, with the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker we have seen 

documents that we have are introduced here showing that he was 

a member of the Palestinian Committee and the HLF, and we have 

seen his deposition testimony where he admitted being a member 

of the IAP's advisory board. Therefore, all three 

organizations are noted beside his name.

Q. Okay. And that continues throughout this chart?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. So Shukri Baker, what you just read, says, "In 

case someone inquired, the session here is a joint session 

between the Holy Land Foundation and the IAP." Is everyone 

who attended, pursuant to your summary, a member of the HLF or 

part of the HLF or the IAP?

A. No.

Q. Okay. He uses -- He uses a term sister Samah. Does he 

talk about that in his declaration what sister Samah meant in 

this Philly conference?

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A. In his sworn statement he does, yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Baker Declaration, 

page 4, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does Shukri Baker say about the term 

Samah?

A. He says, "The use of the word Samah was a whimsical and 

ironic" -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Would you have her read it from the 

beginning? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) There is a word at the top right. 

A. I am sorry. "Some people at the meeting spoke of Hamas 

openly, and there was no reason for them not to, since Hamas' 

role in Palestine was a natural subject of discussion, and 

Hamas was not a banned organization at that time. The use of 

the word Samah was a whimsical and ironic play on words. 

Samah means forgiveness in Arabic, and in my opinion those who 

used the term were making ironic fun of Hamas, not adopting a 

secret term to disguise their references to the organization."

Q. So, Agent Burns, in what we just read a moment ago when 

he says sister Samah, according to this declaration he is 

meaning sister forgiveness?

A. If you believe what he says in his declaration.

Q. Do you know what Samah is backwards?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, can I just use the elmo, 

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please? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see what I wrote?

A. I do.

Q. What did I write? What word that is?

A. Reading left to right it is Samah.

Q. Okay. What is Samah backwards?

A. Hamas, which interestingly in reading Arabic you read 

from the right to the left. 

MR. JONAS: Go back to the screen, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What meaning did the word Samah have in 

the conference?

A. It was a code word for Hamas.

Q. And is that identified in the conference?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. JONAS: Can you turn to Philly meeting 4-E? We 

are going to play segment A, please. 

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 4, Segment A was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, have we seen any documents 

during the course of your testimony to indicate who was going 

to commit jihad to liberate Palestine?

A. Yes.

Q. What document?

A. Hamas, according to the Hamas charter.

Q. The first thing, or one of the first things we saw on 

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that one, GA, which is who?

A. Gawad.

Q. Gawad says, "Hamas...the Samah Movement. I mean Samah." 

Did Shukri Baker express any concern over using the word Hamas 

during the course of this conference?

A. Yes, he did.

MR. JONAS: If we go back to Philly Meeting No. 3, 

page 3. This is a short one. The third segment. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you read that segment Agent Burns?

A. Yes. Let me find out who AU is. Aboul Osama is 

speaking. He says, "As far as the police is concerned, there 

is a good reaction to it. Expectations are that -- It depends 

on the media if we managed to reach the people."

An unknown male says, "What about people's opinions?" 

"That depends."

Unknown male asks, "Is this against Hamas?" 

Shukri Abu Baker says, "Didn't we say not to mention that 

term?"

Unknown male then says, "Is it against the Movement?"

Q. Agent Burns, have we seen the term Movement used in this 

case?

A. Yes, we have.

Q. What does that mean?

A. It is short for the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is 

Hamas.

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Q. Is the Philadelphia meeting the only time you have seen 

the word Samah used?

A. No.

Q. When else have you seen it?

A. Phone calls.

Q. Do you have before you Baker Wiretap No. 4?

A. I do.

Q. And who are the participants on that call?

A. Shukri Abu Baker the Defendant, and Abdel Haleem Ashqar.

Q. What is the date of the call?

A. January 11th, 1996. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Baker Wiretap No. 4 and 4-A. 

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play that, please.

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap No. 4, 4-A was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see where Shukri 

Baker says, "visited their aunt's house"?

A. I do.

Q. Have you seen that term used before?

A. I have.

Q. Where?

A. I have seen it in some of the evidence here; none that we 

have discussed yet.

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Q. Without giving your understanding of it, is it a word 

that -- In the context that you have seen it, not just in this 

call, but other contexts, is that a code word?

A. It is a code word.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, do you see where it says, "he claims 

a relation to her, this Hajja Samah"? 

A. I do.

Q. Using the definition as applied in Baker's declaration, 

the sworn statement, would that mean Hajja forgiveness?

A. If you look at his statement, but it makes no sense in 

this context.

Q. Have you seen the term Hajja before?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what that means?

A. It can be translated as sister. It is more of a 

respected female, but it can be translated as sister.

MS. CADEDDU: I object to her opining about what 

things mean in Arabic. She is not an expert or translator. 

She doesn't speak Arabic.

THE COURT: Overrule that objection. She may 

testify to her understanding. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And is sister Samah the term that we have 

seen used in the Philadelphia meeting?

A. It is.

Q. Agent Burns, do you see the term "old man"?

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A. I do.

Q. Have you seen that term used before?

A. I have seen that term used in the context of this issue 

and this evidence to mean Yasser Arafat. 

Q. Agent Burns, have you seen the use of the term Samah in 

other calls?

A. Yes.

Q. We will save them for later. 

A. Okay.

Q. All right. You testified that at the time of the 

Philadelphia meeting the Oslo Accords had just come out. 

Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Per the Hamas charter, what was Hamas' position on the 

Oslo Accords?

A. Well, according to the Hamas charter they were opposed to 

any type of peaceful compromise with the Israelis. The 

charter predated the Oslo Accords, the signing of the Oslo 

Accords.

Q. Did the participants in the Philadelphia meeting discuss 

moving in the same direction as Hamas on this issue?

A. They did.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Philly Meeting No. 2-E, 

Segment A, please.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 2-E, Segment A was 

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played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, what is the Fund?

A. That is the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Agent Burns, do you see where it says, "The programs or 

the organizations overall should be in complete harmony with 

the general directions of the Movement"? What is the 

Movement?

A. The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas. 

Q. Who is Abou Ibrahim?

A. The Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Agent Burns, the individual I believe was Gawad who was 

speaking, talked about moving in directions. They talked 

about the Movement being Hamas. Did Defendant Shukri Baker 

also talk about moving in particular directions?

A. He did.

MR. JONAS: Okay. If you will turn to Philly 

Meeting No. 6-E. If we can play Segment A, please. 

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 6-E, Segment A was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is speaking here?

A. This is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, do you see where Shukri Baker says, 

"We used to have an approach which probably had a glaring 

color, I mean, the jihadist [address], and this and that, 

focus on activism even through our lectures, conferences and 

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seminars"? 

You said you viewed videotapes, which we have seen some, 

and I assume we will see more. 

A. Yes.

Q. In those videotapes, did many of them predate the 

Philadelphia conference?

A. They do.

Q. The ones that predate Philadelphia, are they of the same 

nature of the ones we saw already talking about Hamas, Hamas 

symbols on the screen, et cetera?

A. The ones that predate the Philadelphia meeting, yes.

Q. The ones that postdate Philadelphia, does the nature of 

them change?

A. Yes. They are very toned down.

Q. Did you hear the Defendant Shukri Baker use the term 

"derailment"?

A. Yes.

Q. Used it a few times. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did any of the other participants discuss derailment?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Philly Meeting No. 

10-E, Segment D. 

One moment, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Yes. 

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MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we are about to play about 

four segments in a row, if you are ready to take a break.

THE COURT: This is a good time to break? Let's 

take a 20-minute break. Let's be back at 20 till. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: All right. We will be in recess, 20 

till.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: All right.

Mr. Jonas?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, before the break we had 

played a statement where the Defendant Shukri Baker used the 

term derailment a few times. And I believe I asked you, was 

the term derailment used which other participants in this 

Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. What was the context?

A. They were discussing how to derail the Oslo Peace 

Accords.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Philly Meeting No. 10, 

Segment D. 

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 10, Segment D, E, F, 

and K was played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, in the top right hand side 

it says D-E-R-A on the screen. What word is that in your 

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transcript?

A. That would be the word derail.

Q. Cut off here?

A. Apparently it is off center a little bit.

Q. Okay. Who is AS that is doing the speaking?

A. I will confirm from the front page. That is Abdel Haleem 

Ashqar.

Q. Ashqar. Okay.

Agent Burns, did the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker talk 

about his position on peace agreements in his declaration?

A. Yes.

Q. If we can look at Baker declaration, page 2 paragraph 7. 

MR. JONAS: Put that on the screen, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does Shukri Baker say regarding his 

support for peace?

A. He says "Neither I, nor to my knowledge any of the other 

founders of this charity, have had any connection whatever to 

Hamas, or to any terrorist groups or to terrorism. I do not 

believe that suicide bombing is countenanced by the Islamic 

religion. I have always opposed radicalism. I have always 

been for dialogue and for peace, and I am firm in these 

convictions. I am confident that the other founders of the 

Holy Land Foundation feel the same way. Our objective was and 

has always been simply to alleviate suffering in Palestine and 

elsewhere."

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Q. Does he talk about derailing the peace accords in his 

declaration?

A. No, he does not.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I would like to voice an 

objection. The Oslo Accords were not peace accords, and the 

Government keeps using the term peace accord. The Oslo Accord 

was the Oslo Accord. It was not a peace agreement.

THE COURT: You may cross examine Agent Burns on 

that when your turn comes, counsel. 

Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) During back to the Philadelphia meeting, 

did the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker discuss the support that 

the organizations must give to Hamas?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to Philly Meeting No. 12, 

Segment A, please, from the excerpt.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 12, Segment A was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Again, Agent Burns, what is the Movement?

A. That is the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas.

Q. Agent Burns, how does Shukri Baker refer to what is going 

on with the Oslo Accords in this attribution right here?

A. In this attribution he refers to the Oslo Accords as the 

peace project. 

Q. Agent Burns, based upon your review of the Elbarasse 

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records, which are in evidence here, was there one of the 

organizations of the Palestine Committee that functioned as a 

think tank?

A. The United Association for Studies and Research was what 

its title said, a research center, which would be a think 

tank. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play Segment B of Philly 

Meeting No. 12-E. 

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 12-E, Segment B was 

played while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, who is speaking here?

A. This is Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, did the participants in the 

Philadelphia meeting ever discuss what they can and cannot 

officially say in regard to their positions? 

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Philly Meeting No. 5 

and play Segment F.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 5, Segment F was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, who is speaking?

A. This is Gawad.

Q. On here it says GA, on the transcript, GA. Is Gawad on 

the Philadelphia meeting list of people who were there?

A. Yes. It is spelled with a J. Here they use the G and 

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the J interchangeably on his name. So Gawad is the same as 

Jawad.

Q. Did any of the participants in the Philadelphia meeting 

discuss how they would go about supporting the resistance?

A. They did.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Segment G of Philly 

Meeting No. 5.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 5, Segment G was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, where the Defendant Shukri 

Abu Baker says, "You Virginia guys got us in trouble," were 

there people from Virginia who attended this meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. One of them was Muin Shabib was in Virginia at that time.

Q. How about Elbarasse?

A. He was as well.

Q. Did any of the participants, in particular the Defendant 

Shukri Abu Baker, express any concern about Hamas being 

labeled as a terrorist organization?

A. They did.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Philly No. 5, Segment H.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 5, Segment H was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, did you see where it says Al 

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Zatounia?

A. I do.

Q. Have we seen Al Zatounia referenced in the Elbarasse 

records?

A. I believe it was referenced in one of the documents as 

one of the periodicals.

Q. Periodicals published by whom?

A. The IAP.

MR. JONAS: Play the next segment, Philly No. 5, 

Segment I.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 5, Segment I was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, you see where Shukri Baker 

-- Is he the one speaking?

A. He is.

Q. He talks about "Our brothers in the occupied territories 

will pretend to go along with the self-rule, and none of their 

societies will be shut down." During the course of your 

testimony have we talked about any societies that belong to 

Hamas?

A. The Islamic Center of Gaza would be one.

Q. That was the one that was founded by Sheikh Yassin?

A. That is correct. That the HLF gave money to in the early 

years. 

Q. Agent Burns, do you see where Shukri Baker uses the word 

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Samah again?

A. I do.

Q. And under his definition would that say, then, "America 

will classify forgiveness as a terrorist organization," if you 

used the definition he provided in his declaration?

A. If you use the definition he provided in his sworn 

declaration, in this context it makes no sense. 

Q. Agent Burns, are you familiar with the al-Aqsa 

educational that is in quotes there?

A. I am.

Q. Is that an entity we are going to talk about in a little 

while?

A. That is an entity that we actually spoke about on 

Thursday, Abdel Haleem Ashqar's educational fund.

Q. Ashqar is again who?

A. A member of the Palestine Committee.

Q. He was a participant in the Philadelphia meeting?

A. That is correct. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play from Philly Meeting No. 

5, Section J. 

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 5, Section J was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, at the time of the 

Philadelphia meeting in 1993, had Hamas been officially 

designated as a terrorist organization by the United States?

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A. No. Actually the mechanism for designating an 

organization as a terrorist did not exist at the time of this 

conference.

Q. Are you aware if the United States in any way recognized 

Hamas as a terrorist organization at around this time?

A. After the Oslo Accords, the U.S. State Department came 

out and named them as a terrorist organization, but it did not 

have the same effect as what an official designation would 

later on.

Q. What was that document that it came out in?

A. Generally they print these things in what is called -- 

They have a pamphlet called The Patterns of Global Terrorism.

MR. JONAS: Finally, if we can turn to Philly 

Meeting No. 6 and play segment D. 

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting NO. 6, Segment D was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, who is speaking now?

A. This is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, did the participants discuss what 

they can and cannot say to America? 

A. They did.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Philly Meeting No. 6, 

segment E.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 6, Segment E was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, who is speaking now?

A. This speaker is an unidentified male. 

Q. Agent Burns, are you familiar with what is termed the 

1948 territories?

A. Yes.

Q. What does that mean? What is your understanding of what 

that means?

A. That means Israel as it exists. Israel was established 

in 1948, so if you are requesting the 1948 territories you 

want the land that is now considered Israel. 

Q. Agent Burns, what document have we seen that discusses 

demanding the 1948 territories?

A. The Hamas charter.

Q. Are there other times when they discuss what they can and 

cannot say to the Americans?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Philly Meeting No. 7, 

Segment A.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 7, Segment A was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is speaking here?

A. This is an unknown male.

Q. And this unknown male refers to Shukri. Was there any 

other Shukri at the Philadelphia meeting besides the Defendant 

Shukri Baker?

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A. No. 

Q. Agent Burns, you see where it says, "You can try to 

convince people from behind saying tone it down a little"?

A. I do.

Q. Is that consistent with what you testified earlier about 

the videotapes of the conferences, toning it down post 

Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes. 

Q. Agent Burns, do you see -- Who is OM that is speaking?

A. That is Omar Ahmad.

Q. Do you see where he references Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman?

A. I do.

Q. Do you know who that individual is?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

A. He is one of the individuals who is currently 

incarcerated for his role in the plotting of the first World 

Trade Center bombing.

Q. Which occurred in the early '90s?

A. In 1993.

Q. He is not a member of the Palestine Committee, is he?

A. No, he is not.

Q. Was he part of this meeting at all?

A. No, he was not.

Q. Other than a reference to him here, does he have any 

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involvement to the Defendants, based upon the evidence that 

you have seen?

A. Not based on the evidence that we have discussed, no.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Did the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker 

discuss deception?

A. He did.

Q. If we can, staying with Philly Meeting No. 7, do you have 

page 6 before you?

A. I do.

Q. We will put it on the screen and read this one. It is 

fairly short. I believe it is page 5, the second segment 

there. Who is speaking?

A. That is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Okay. Can you read this segment?

A. He says, "I swear by your God that war is deception. War 

is deception. We are fighting our enemy with a kind heart and 

we never thought of deceiving it. War is deception. Deceive, 

camouflage, pretend that you're leaving while you're walking 

that way. Or do we have to be -- Deceive your enemy." 

Omar Ahmad says, "This is like one who plays basketball. 

He makes a player believe that he is doing this while he does 

something else. I agree with you. Like they say, politics is 

a completion of war."

Shukri Abu Baker says, "Yes, politics, like war, is a 

deception."

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Q. Agent Burns, in 1993 when the Philadelphia meeting took 

place, what was the Holy Land Foundation supposed to be?

A. A Muslim charity.

Q. Did this discussion of war being deception come up again?

A. It did.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Philly Meeting No. 

12-E. If we can play Segment E of Philly meeting 12.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 12-E, Segment E was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, who is speaking here?

A. I believe it was -- I need to look at the beginning of 

it, or if you can tell me what page it is on in the 

transcript.

Q. On the excerpt it is page 6. 

A. Unknown male.

Q. Okay. You see he says, "The first goal is to continue to 

support the Palestinian cause and defending the Movement's 

positions," what is the Movement?

A. The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas. 

Q. Agent Burns, do you see where it says, "Working to make 

the Islamic Association for Palestine the main source of 

information which represents the movement's positions," who 

published the Hamas charter in the United States?

A. The IAP.

Q. Is that the Islamic Association for Palestine?

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A. Yes, it is.

Q. Agent Burns, who is SH that says "It should lie"?

A. That is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker. 

Q. Agent Burns, did you see where it said, "Learn from your 

masters in the Fund"? What is the Fund?

A. The Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Agent Burns, do you have the last page of Philly segment 

12-E before you? There is just one line there that is the 

last segment?

A. I do.

MR. JONAS: If we can put that last page, page 8 

open the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, just one line. What does 

Shukri Baker say, the last line in the excerpted transcript?

A. He says, "Your mother Samah is the mother of democracy."

Q. Did Shukri Baker the Defendant say anything about what he 

can and cannot say to America about his relationship to Hamas?

A. He did.

MR. JONAS: If we turn to Philly Meeting No. 8, in 

the excerpts if you can turn to page 3. Can we get page 3 on 

the screen, please?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, starting with the top where 

it says UM, "I can repeat the text," can you read the rest of 

this segment please?

A. "I can repeat the text if that is going to solve the 

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problem. We can say attacking the -- the credibility of the 

representation of the Organization, the Organization's right 

to sign an accord on behalf of the Palestinian people."

Q. Let me pause you for a moment. Which organization signed 

the Oslo Accords on behalf of the Palestinian people?

A. The Palestine Liberation Organization.

Q. Okay. Continue. 

A. Gawad says, "No, he didn't sign as the Organization. He 

signed as Abu Ammar. He didn't sign as the Organization." 

Unknown male says, "No, he signed the Palestinian people. 

What's his name? Abu Abbas signed as the Palestinian 

delegation."

Gawad said, "But not even one major democratic 

Palestinian organization until now has --" 

Unknown male says, "This is the point. This is the 

point." 

Shukri Abu Baker said, "This is what they understand -- 

Abu, Abu. This is what they understand. Currently Abu Ammar 

is the chairman of the PLO. Our brothers, we cannot use the 

same poetic Arabic style when addressing the American 

mentality. Our brother, the American will not understand it. 

Please allow me. They will tell you, 'If he doesn't represent 

you, why the hell don't you get rid of him?' He will tell 

you, 'If he doesn't represent you, who represents the 

Palestinian people?'" 

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Unknown male says, "We should drop the Arafat issue now. 

We're talking about the Organization." 

Shukri Abu Baker says, "These are very critical 

questions. We're replying to the question. It is very 

critical." 

Unknown male, "If he is democratic." 

Shukri Abu Baker says, "I cannot say to him that I'm 

Hamas."

MR. JONAS: If we play the next segment of Philly 

Meeting No. 8, which is Segment B.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 8, Segment B was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see where it says, "I 

mean, in the same style as Samah's"?

A. Yes.

Q. Would that mean "in the same style of forgiveness"?

A. No, it doesn't. 

Q. Who is speaking right now?

A. Shukri Abu Baker is.

Q. And Omar Yehia is who?

A. That is the same as Omar Ahmad the IAP member/Palestinian 

Committee member who has been speaking quite frequently 

throughout this. 

Q. Shukri Baker says, "You can go meet a Congressman in your 

name, in Omar Yehia's name, in the name of the Association's 

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present, and tell him [UI] doesn't represent us. Mr. Ahmad 

Yassin represents us." Who is Ahmed Yassin?

A. The Hamas founder, the former spiritual leader that is on 

your board there in the middle on the top.

Q. The top, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: If we can stay with Philly Meeting No. 

8, page 5 of the Philly meeting 8-E, the excerpted portion, 

the top half, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, if you can read what Shukri 

Baker says at this point in the meeting?

A. He says, "The point you presented which is -- which is 

withdrawing, attacking his credibility as a representative and 

a leader of the Palestinian people. But I tell you that we 

don't want the American front to become a front for direct 

conflict. These things will put us in direct conflict, not 

only with the Palestinians, even with the official government 

circles. What is our benefit? What is our interest? As 

Palestinian action organizations in America, what is our 

benefit in creating more enemies than necessary? What is the 

interest that -- Are you going to win the Palestinian cause if 

this guy who works at McDonald's, the worker who works there 

for $4 an hour understands whether Abu Ammar represents us or 

not, or the Congressman? If you explain the situation to him 

that he is -- and doesn't represent the Palestinian people, is 

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he going to tell you, 'Yes, by God, you convinced me.' 

Despite that everything goes as planned. The point is that we 

are not going to expose ourselves to another wave and be 

anti-establishment -- anti-establishment. Okay? Because for 

the American organizations, if you're against peace you're a 

terrorist. When you start attacking Abu Ammar, his 

leadership, the people who signed and attended and arranged 

their affairs with -- such as a Saudi person who attacks the 

Saud family and say that he is not a ruler, my brother, let 

him --" 

Unknown male says, "Okay. Amazing. But brother, please 

finish."

Q. That is fine. Were there any other discussions regarding 

their presentation or their face to America?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there several more discussions regarding that topic?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, was that the subject matter of this whole 

conference, this whole meeting?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Let's look at one more. Philly Meeting 

No. 10 in the excerpt page 2. Can you get that on the screen, 

please, the bottom half? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, are you up to reading one 

more?

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A. Okay. Gawad says, "America and the American, in order to 

convince the people, because everybody is convinced; the 

Americans are convinced and the Jews. People must -- On the 

ground they're happy with the flag now, but the flag will last 

one week, two weeks, or a month. And what is after that? We 

need bread. This will be -- The propaganda will be spread 

will affect Hamas. In the meanwhile, are you going to collect 

a million? Not a million for instance. The media and 

political support for the Cause in general terms, and to the 

rights of the Palestinian people specifically will be 

negatively affected in my opinion. Why? First, the 

organizations which work on these issues are American and they 

deal from the -- from America's mentality. A prominent 

example for that is the occupation. The U.S. government used 

to call it occupation, and used to reject its measures and 

reject this and that, and used to call to the implementation 

of the Geneva agreement. This was the official America, State 

department and otherwise. It tried to, because all became a 

United Nations, so you no longer have the right to resist the 

occupation. All of that will be classified according to the 

American concept. There is no occupation now. There is an 

understanding and there are no weapons to be carried because 

there is no occupation to be fought. There is no more 

suffering because of the occupation. Suffering now is on the 

hands of the local government. This will be classified as 

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terrorism according to America. How are you going to do it? 

How are you going to perform jihad?"

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, have we already heard in some of the 

calls or some of the segments that we have played or read a 

discussion for a new organization?

A. Yes.

Q. Has that discussion -- did that happen several times 

where they discussed creating a new organization?

A. It did.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Philly Meeting No. 5, 

and the excerpt if we can get page 1 on the screen, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I will give your voice a 

break and I will just read this one. 

Unknown male 2 says, "In my opinion, we must form a new 

organization for activism which will be neutral because we are 

placed in a corner. We are placed in a corner. It is known 

who we are. We are marked. And I believe that there should 

be a new neutral organization which works on both sides so 

that -- because this state is coming no matter what, and this 

is a new existing order." 

Agent Burns, were there any other discussions about them 

being marked?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Philly Meeting No. 13 

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in the excerpt, and if we can play segments F and G, please.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 13-E, Segment F and G 

were played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see where it says ISNA and ICNA? 

Have we seen those names before?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. ISNA was on several of the documents we have already 

discussed as one of the Muslim Brotherhood organizations. 

MR. JONAS: I believe we need to approach for the 

next question I will ask Agent Burns. 

THE COURT: Sure. Come up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we have played two segments 

so far where participants discussed being marked, and in fact 

the last one someone said the Holy Land Foundation has been 

marked. I think in the context it is clear that they are 

concerned about being marked as Hamas, and they discuss 

creating a new neutral organization. 

At this point I was going to ask Agent Burns if she came 

across any document within the search warrant material that 

would show how they were marked, and that is the New York

Times article that was found at the Holy Land Foundation, 

which I have right here. 

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MS. MORENO: If I can get my notes, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Go ahead. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we may have a resolution. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Mr. Cline can approach. In the last 

trial I believe that we had a stipulation that I don't 

remember the exact terminology.

MR. CLINE: Mr. Jacks just reminded me of this. We 

had a stipulation, and I am paraphrasing, but the basic idea 

was that Holy Land at that point had been publicly associated 

with Hamas in some fashion. I forget exactly how we worded 

it; publicly accused or named or something like that. And 

that was how we dealt with this issue in the last trial. I 

had forgotten about that.

THE COURT: By a stipulation? 

MR. CLINE: By a stipulation.

THE COURT: That had been -- 

MR. CLINE: That it had been publicly identified, 

accused, there was some term like that. We can -- 

THE COURT: Come up with something or find it? 

MR. JONAS: That is fine with me. It is just that I 

am at the point now where I think it would be relevant. So I 

don't know if you want to give us five minutes to work out the 

language.

THE COURT: Sure. We can do that.

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MS. MORENO: Because I have all my wonderful 

objections lined up, Judge, that are devastating.

MR. CLINE: Let me consult with my colleagues on the 

Defense side.

THE COURT: Sure. Do you want the jury out for a 

few minutes? 

MR. CLINE: That might be good. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Members of the jury, if you want to step 

back into the jury room for just a few minutes. The lawyers 

are trying to work out something, and see if we can work 

something out. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Go ahead and be seated. 

Do you remember the last time, the stipulation -- there 

was about three or four of these newspaper articles. Did it 

cover all of them, or just this particular one.

MR. JONAS: I believe just this particular one, Your 

Honor. 

MS. HOLLANDER: It just covered this one. I think 

we have all the stipulations, but they are -- I don't have 

them up here. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, Mr. Cline is going to write 

out the language. 

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THE COURT: All right. 

THE COURT: Go ahead and bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, the last segment we played 

from Philly Meeting No. 13-E, the unidentified male that was 

speaking said that the Holy Land Foundation was stamped, or 

ready as whatever. And the prior segment I read from Philly 

Meeting No. 5, the unidentified male talked about that "We are 

placed in a corner. It is known who we are. We are marked." 

Okay? 

MR. JONAS: Per stipulation, Your Honor, I would 

like to read to the jury, upon agreement of the parties, the 

following: 

"As of the date of the Philadelphia meeting, the HLF has 

been publicly named in a newspaper article as being associated 

with Hamas."

THE COURT: Okay. And that stipulation the parties 

have agreed to, so you can accept that as an established fact 

without hearing any additional evidence. 

I guess for the record we should get -- Mr. Cline, that 

is language you have agreed to. Correct? 

MR. CLINE: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: On behalf of all counsel and all the 

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parties? 

MR. CLINE: Yes, Your Honor.

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, that Philly Meeting No. 5 

segment I read, as well as some other segments we read and 

played, discussed a new organization being created. A neutral 

organization is a term that was used. Do you have before You 

Elbarasse Search 19?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And what is the date of that document?

A. July 30th, 1994.

Q. And was this document created -- Is that after the Philly 

Meeting in 1994?

A. It is.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Elbarasse Search No. 19. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we could put page 1 of that on the 

screen, first.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, what language is this 

document in?

A. It is primarily in Arabic, but there are a few words 

there that were in English in the original document.

Q. Starting with the English words on this first page that 

you see, what are those organizations? What is that?

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A. The UASR that we have discussed at length, the HLF, the 

IAP, and a new organization CAIR.

Q. Was this page translated?

A. It was.

Q. The whole document was translated?

A. It was.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to page 6. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the title of this document?

A. "Meeting agenda for the Palestine Committee, July 30th, 

1994."

Q. And if you go to No. 3, can you read what it says?

A. It says, "Reviewing reports of the working organizations, 

and it includes: 

"Reviewing work report of the previous stage. 

"Financial situation. 

"Future suggestions to develop work of the following 

organizations: IAP, HLF, UASR, Coordination, CAIR."

Q. Do you know what CAIR stands for?

A. Yes.

Q. What does it stand for?

A. Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Q. Prior to the Philadelphia meeting did you see the 

organization CAIR mentioned in any of the Elbarasse documents?

A. It did not exist prior to the Philadelphia meeting.

Q. So it came into being after Philadelphia?

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A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Were there any additional discussions by the 

participants about how they would portray themselves to 

America?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we turn to Philly Meeting No. 16 and 

the excerpts, if we can play Segment F and G together, please.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting NO. 16-E, Segment F and G 

were played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is speaking here?

A. This is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Agent Burns, did you see in that segment where the 

Defendant Shukri Baker talked about making presentations on 

human suffering and the rights, the issues he understands, he 

says?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there additional discussions making presentations to 

America on human rights?

A. Yes. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to Philly Meeting No. 10, 

Segment G. That is on page 5 of the excerpted portion. If we 

can put that on the screen, please, the bottom segment.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does this unidentified male say, 

please? 

A. He says, "The first is to make the agreement fail, and 

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this is a public policy and all of us are opposing it. It is 

the just the media which exaggerated the issue. Second, 

finding the alternatives. The first step should be taken 

advantage of by the brothers in -- how to make the agreement 

fail. The national rights, human rights, stuff which will be 

exploited in order to make you look legitimate while you call 

on the annulment of the agreement. I mean, there should be 

legitimacy to everything we do so that they won't -- they 

should always be in -- this is one aspect. The other aspect 

is working to find the alternatives. Create programs in order 

to target the agreement."

Q. Agent Burns, were there other discussions about 

exploiting human rights?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to Philly Meeting No. 12 

and play Segment D. 

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting NO. 12, Segment D was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, did you see where the 

Defendant Shukri Baker talked about neglecting camps in the 

past? 

A. I did.

Q. Did he talk -- Were there any other times where he talked 

about the camps and taking advantage of them?

A. Yes.

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MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Philly Meeting No. 

14-E for the excerpt, play Segment B, please.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 14-E, Segment B was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, some of the words are cut 

off on the right. Do you see that on your screen?

A. I do.

Q. Do you have this particular portion in your transcript in 

front of you?

A. I do. It may take me just a minute to find it. Okay. I 

have it.

Q. Go ahead. 

A. Beginning with "Stressing the suffering," "Stressing the 

suffering in the Palestinians' camps in Palestine and outside 

it. The camps program which is excluded in the agreement 

process...the suffering still exists, and we could benefit 

from the suffering in the camps from the angle of approaching 

the Palestinian cause from this angle at least. Inside 

Palestine and in all the camps all over the world. The third 

item is focusing on the humanitarian needs which are not much 

affected by the political changes to start with. An example 

is the orphan sponsorship program. It has no relationship 

with the changes. Okay? The needy or the handicapped child 

fund, the student fund, anti-poverty projects, these are 

projects which will remain even if there is a Palestinian 

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state in place. How much more for people without a 

leadership? The...always negates the religious sentiment at 

the donors. There is a religious sentiment at the donor. I 

tell him, 'Come on. You will give you zakat out anyway. Give 

me your zakat and I will send it to Palestine.' He will give 

it anyway. It won't make a difference to him. Sacrifices, 

establishing endowment projects and drinking fountains and 

carrying out the legitimate will project. It is a long term 

plan. That's fine. Now, if three or four people wrote their 

wills, we could get half a million dollars. It is a long 

term, but it is a legitimate will which he will carry out 

whether with you or with somebody else, focusing on the 

importance of supporting the Islamic organizations in the 

upcoming stage. I will speak about a specific population 

which is the Islamic population. See, if we don't support the 

Islamic organizations, other organizations will come to 

destroy and crush them. The Islamic University, the 

University, this is a very private address. I cannot place an 

ad in the newspaper saying, 'Save the Islamic institutions.' 

Starting a dialogue with the American public to contribute to 

the new phase of rebuilding in Gaza and Jericho. This is an 

important issue. What happened happened. Why should I rely 

on self-rule? No. Come here. I go to the American public 

and tell him, 'That is excellent. Good. We are going to 

build Gaza and we are going to build Jericho. I want you to 

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help me.' That is because I will be in a position of 

competition with the other Palestinian organizations which 

work with...and which work with the American public. They 

will now have impetus, strong media, and they will have strong 

credibility and legitimacy. We will find ourselves competing 

with the Americans. Why should I portray myself as...saying 

that I am an Islamist, only an Islamist, and don't 

want...don't want the Americans. No, I will open a new 

dialogue with the Americans and benefit from...and let them go 

to Jericho and Gaza. Yes, it is not wrong. Seven, start a 

dialogue with the U.S. and international charitable 

organizations, U.N organizations, and embarking on new joint 

projects in Palestine. Please note that if there is one 

advantage of this Palestinian-Israeli agreement to me, it is 

that your address to the American public about the Palestinian 

cause will be easier. The psychological barrier between the 

Americans and the Palestinian people has begun to erode or 

disappear. I can benefit from this point by...but I cannot 

approach them through my strict Islamic address. I can't tell 

him 'I demand 48 borders.' No way. No way on earth. Okay?" 

Q. Agent Burns, to pause for a moment, what items have we 

seen that addresses the demanding of 48 borders?

A. Again, that was the Hamas charter.

Q. Okay. Please continue.

A. "No. I approach it through humanitarian suffering, 

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refugees' rights, and issues which the Americans will agree 

with you on. An example of that is the U.N. organizations and 

the institutions which give grants, and we could do various 

projects. Finally, the broad lines which you could call them 

strategies, one, the...address should steer totally clear from 

any tension towards the issue of the self-rule. I believe 

that I as a charity organization should not give an opinion or 

a political judgment at all. I have no relationship with 

that. I am not a political institution. I want to...there is 

a new reality I'm dealing with now. It is not my job to 

attack the self-rule. This is my view. Amicable relationship 

must be maintained with all parties inside Palestine. This 

goes without saying, my brothers. We must not put any 

factional or partisan influence on the Foundation of America 

as it is the charitable arm of this or that. No. I say that 

this is wrong and we must act out of a charitable stand. We 

must act as an American organization which is registered in 

America and which cares for the interests of the Palestinian 

people. It doesn't cater to the interests of a specific 

party. Our relationship with everyone must be good, 

regardless." 

Ghassan Elashi says, "Including the Islamists, of 

course." 

And Shukri Abu Baker says, "The Islamists, of course. 

No, there is no problem, my brother. This is...we gave the 

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Islamists $100,000 and we gave others $5,000."

Q. I believe on the screen it is slightly different, if you 

could read it. 

A. I am sorry. "In the past we gave the Islamists $100,000 

and we gave others $5,000."

Q. Agent Burns, is there any other discussion about that 

last statement, "In the past we gave the Islamists $100,000 

and we gave the others $5,000"? Did anyone else reference 

back to that?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to Philly Meeting No. 13, 

segment H, and play that, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Before we do that, Agent Burns, who are 

the Islamists, or what are the Islamists as referenced in this 

case?

A. In this context, the Defendants. That would be people 

with the Muslim Brotherhood, supporting Hamas, like that.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I am going to object to 

her defining the term Islamist. I don't believe she has any 

expertise to do that.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who are the others? They say "The 

Islamists $100,000 and we gave the others $5,000." 

A. Anyone else who is not an Islamist.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Segment H of Philly 

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Meeting No. 13.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 13, Segment H was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, did the Holy Land Foundation 

give $100,000 to Islamists?

A. They gave much more to Islamists.

Q. As an example, did they give $5,000 or some other nominal 

amount to others?

A. They did.

Q. Is there a particular of that?

A. One good example that I looked at was a donation to the 

victims of the Oklahoma City bombing.

Q. Do you have before you what has been marked as InfoCom 

Search No. 5? 

A. I do.

Q. What is that item?

A. It is a thank-you letter from the Oklahoma City Community 

Foundation to the Holy Land Foundation.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence InfoCom Search No. 5.

MS. HOLLANDER: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does this document state?

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A. It says -- Do you want me to read it? 

Q. Sure. 

A. "On behalf of the citizens of Oklahoma City, Mayor Ronald 

J. Norick joins me in thanking you for sharing your generosity 

with the Community Foundation and helping the charitable needs 

of Oklahoma City. The Oklahoma City Community Foundation 

thanks you for your gift of $5,000. It will be a credit in 

your name for the benefit of the Mayor's Disaster Relief 

Fund."

Q. Agent Burns, were there any phone calls between any of 

the Defendants regarding the Oklahoma City bombing?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. The Defendants Mohammad El-Mezain and Abdulrahman Odeh.

Q. Do you have before you what has been marked as El-Mezain 

Wiretap No. 2?

A. I do.

Q. Is that a phone call?

A. It is.

Q. What is the date of it?

A. April 19th, 1995.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence El-Mezain Wiretap No. 2. 

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play that call, please.

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(Whereupon, El-Mezain Wiretap No. 2 was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is the MO?

A. That is the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And who is the AB?

A. That is the Defendant Abdulrahman Odeh.

Q. Agent Burns, I want to move away from the Philadelphia 

meeting. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I can keep going, or we can 

break. It is up to you?

THE COURT: Are you at a good breaking point? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and break for the day, 

then. 

Be back at 9:00 in the morning. Please recall the 

instructions about not discussing the case with anyone or not 

reading anything about it. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Agent Burns, you can step down.

Do we need to come in early in the morning and finish up 

the rest of these exhibits you intend to offer through Agent 

Burns, or where are we with that? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I believe the only other 

issues are the magazines -- 

THE COURT: The magazines, and maybe the rest of the 

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newspaper articles. 

Anything else that anybody thinks we need to address as 

far as the exhibits that were given to you that he plans on 

offering through Agent Burns? 

MR. CLINE: I don't think so, other than the ones 

that Mr. Jonas has mentioned that we have our continuing 

objections.

THE COURT: I understand those. Why don't we be 

here at 8:30 in the morning, and we will address those issues. 

If you can think of something else, we will address them then. 

Don't work too hard on it.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am going to go through the 

schedules and summaries that we admitted today, and I am going 

to make sure that I offered for admission all the supporting 

documentation. And if I missed any of that, I would like to 

clean that up in the morning.

THE COURT: Sure. We will do that.

(End of day.)

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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts 06/04/2009

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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