IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( OCTOBER 14, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 17 OF 37

______________________________________________________________

STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

1

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 (214) 753-2349

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

2

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

ROBERT MIRANDA

Direct By MR. JACKS ............................................. 31

Government's Exhibits

Government's Exhibits Page

Demonstrative No. 5 Admitted into Evidence 32

InfoCom Search No. 23 Admitted into Evidence 37

HLF Search No. 177, 178 Admitted into Evidence 44

Designation No. 1 Admitted into Evidence 54

Ashqar Search No. 3 Admitted into Evidence 68

HLF Search No. 130 Admitted into Evidence 74

HLF Search 115, 117, 119 Admitted into Evidence 76

El-Mezain Wiretap No. 14 Admitted into Evidence 87

El-Mezain Wiretap No. 14-A Admitted into Evidence 88

Baker Wiretap 25-27, 25A-27A Admitted into Evidence 91

HLF Search No. 27 Admitted into Evidence 99

Demonstrative No. 6, 16 Admitted into Evidence 135

InfoCom Search No. 37 Admitted into Evidence 139

InfoCom Search No. 38 Admitted into Evidence 144

Baker Wiretap No. 31, 31A Admitted into Evidence 145

Demonstrative No. 2 Admitted into Evidence 161

HLF/InfoCom Map Admitted into Evidence 166

HLF Search No. 165 Admitted into Evidence 175

InfoCom Search No. 35 Admitted into Evidence 184

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

3
THE COURT: Good morning.

All right. Let me -- Everybody present and accounted 

for? 

MR. CLINE: Yes.

THE COURT: Let's start off with that motion where 

we left off last week, the Defendants' joint motion for relief 

following admission of the evidence.

Mr. Cline, anything that you wanted to add beyond what is 

in writing to this? 

MR. CLINE: No, Your Honor. I think it is a 

five-factor double jeopardy test. Three of them the 

Government acknowledges point our way. We think the other two 

do as well. I think it is pretty clear, and I think those 

three counts need to go, just those three. The substantive 

counts don't, but I think those three counts do. Regardless 

of your ruling on that, we do want a 404(b) instruction at 

least as to the remaining counts.

And I think the other Defendants -- I think we have 

collectively come up with a proposed instruction that is 

patterned on the Fifth Circuit instruction.

THE COURT: Is that what you have in the written 

motion? 

MR. CLINE: Well, I had in the written motion a 

version that focused just on Mr. Elashi. I think the 

instruction that we collectively want to propose is almost 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

4

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
identical that will add the other Defendants as well.

One other point I want to make, Your Honor, I think the 

Government is now taking the position, contrary to what it 

said on Wednesday, that this is 404(b) evidence. Rule 404(b) 

requires advanced notice or notice in advance of trial, 

reasonably in advance of trial. We didn't get notice of this 

until the day before the evidence came in, if you can call 

that notice. We got notice in the form of these exhibits on 

October the 7th. The evidence was introduced on October the 

8th. 

The Court can excuse notice for good cause shown. I 

don't think there has any good cause here. And for that 

reason --

THE COURT: Did you make a request for advanced 

404(b) notice? 

MR. CLINE: I am confident in our discovery requests 

over the years we have consistently asked for 404(b) notice. 

I can't cite the Court to the record, but I can get that if 

you like. 

On that basis as well, in addition to all the other 

grounds, we move to strike this evidence and to preclude any 

further evidence along these lines. In other words, these 

Marzook, Nadia Elashi --

THE COURT: InfoCom relations? 

MR. CLINE: Yes.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

5

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, anything else besides what 

has been stated here? 

MR. JACKS: No, Your Honor. I think it is clear-cut 

that we are talking about two conspiracies here, and if you 

examine the universe of each conspiracy and the overt acts in 

the InfoCom indictment, in that IEEPA conspiracy, and the 

overt acts in this indictment, the fact that one talks about 

dealing with Marzook, whereas this indictment talks about 

taking donors' contributions and having transactions with 

Hamas, or entities controlled or affiliated with Hamas. I 

think the two separate universes of those conspiracies are 

very distinct and separate. 

As to the notice provision, I don't recall off the top of 

my head if the Defense filed a motion requesting advance 

notice, but we believe that there is no prejudice to the 

Defense. They certainly knew about this evidence. It was 

turned over years ago. 

And we believe that given the cross examination by Ms. 

Moreno of Agent Burns in an effort to show the lack of any 

contact or interaction with Marzook after his designation or 

after the designation of Hamas, that this evidence is 

admissible to rebut that impression, and that was the purpose 

that the Government sought to go into it. And we believe that 

under 404(b) that there is no prejudice to the Defense from 

this admission of evidence. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

6

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
And as we said, we have no objection and think that 

Ghassan Elashi is entitled to an instruction as to how the 

jury can view this evidence, and I am speaking of the 

transactions of funds going back to Mr. Marzook after his 

designation. And it goes to Mr. Elashi's intent, his 

knowledge, that type of thing.

THE COURT: Apparently in the '02 case there were 

two separate trials? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: And the first trial involved the 

Lybian/Syrian exports, and then the second time is what 

involved -- 

MR. JACKS: Dealing in the funds of a designated 

terrorist, namely Mr. Marzook. 

THE COURT: InfoCom/Marzook relationship, the 

evidence that you went into. Is that correct? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Was any evidence introduced at that 

trial about any of the other Defendants that are here? 

MR. JACKS: The only thing I can recall, Your Honor, 

was a telephone conversation between Ghassan Elashi and Shukri 

Abu Baker where it was intercepted. It was shortly after 

Mr. Marzook had been detained at Kennedy Airport, and they 

were talking about him being the head of Hamas and that it was 

foolish of him to come into the United States, and it was 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

7

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
introduced to show Ghassan Elashi's knowledge that he was the 

head of Hamas. And I can't remember if it was -- Because he 

came in in July of '95, and then he was designated about three 

weeks or two weeks later in August, and I think the 

conversation was in that two- or three-week time span. 

But nevertheless, that is the only reference to, as I 

recall, the Holy Land Foundation and the only other Defendant 

in this case Mr. Abu Baker; nothing with regard to Mr. 

El-Mezain, Mr. Odeh, Mr. Abdulqader. None of that was a part 

of that second InfoCom trial. 

THE COURT: All right. Okay. 

Ms. Moreno? 

MS. MORENO: May I briefly address the Court, Your 

Honor? 

With respect to the evidence, the InfoCom Aging Reports 

is really what we are talking about that I had originally 

objected to the Court on the double jeopardy basis, the emails 

from the Government, and Mr. Jacks himself, described these 

reports as new exhibits. These are exhibits as I as Mr. 

Elashi's attorney in this case have never seen before, nor did 

Mr. Evans give me that evidence.

Now, perhaps Mr. Jacks is confused when he says that they 

have had this evidence for years, he is talking about the 

InfoCom trial. I am talking about the Holy Land case. These 

reports were never turned over. I never saw them before the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

8

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
evening before the morning I made the objections to them. And 

in fact the Government described them in their emails to 

Defense counsel as brand new exhibits. So these were brand 

new.

THE COURT: Brand new exhibits is not the same as 

they haven't turned it over previously.

MS. MORENO: They didn't turn it over to me, Your 

Honor, as counsel in this case for Mr. Elashi, nor did 

Mr. Evans turn over any of these reports. So I just wanted 

the Court to be clear that when the Government makes that 

representation, I am not sure what trial they are talking 

about. They might have turned it over in the InfoCom case. 

We are talking about Holy Land, and in Holy Land I have never 

seen these reports before, and the Government described them 

as new exhibits to us. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. MORENO: And they were not used in the first 

trial.

THE COURT: I understand. That is in the written 

motion. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, anything else? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, these exhibits, all of the 

InfoCom exhibits were turned over to Mr. Evans, Tim Evans who 

represented Mr. Elashi in both trials in that case. That same 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

9

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
material was turned over again as a part of the Holy Land 

Foundation trial discovery before the first Holy Land 

Foundation trial. 

Now, I can't recall -- I can't specifically recall the 

location of this exhibit. It may have been among those that 

were on the computer hard drives that were turned over, but 

these documents have been turned over to the Defense. And the 

Court is correct. My use of the term new refers to new to 

this trial.

THE COURT: As exhibits? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well, and I have read 

certainly the motions and gone back over the indictment in the 

'02 case and then the indictment in this case. I am going to 

deny the motion for dismissal on double jeopardy grounds. 

And actually I think it is a relatively close call. 

Certainly there is arguments there for why it is one 

conspiracy, but I think when you look -- some of the factors, 

they do overlap. And we will enter a more specific order. I 

just wanted to get an order on the record today so we can move 

on. Some of the factors overlap, but it appears that 

agreement, the agreement in that case. 

And as the Fifth Circuit cases discuss in a double 

jeopardy conspiracy case that the central issue is whether 

there is one or more agreement. And it looks like that was 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

10

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
more a specific narrower agreement. The time frame does 

overlap, to a large extent. Certainly it could be argued that 

it is related. But it appears to be a different conspiracy, 

more narrowly defined, more specific agreement between a fewer 

individuals that are involved here. This appears to be a 

broader conspiracy. That appears to be solely between some of 

the Elashis -- some of the principals involved with InfoCom 

and Mr. Marzook and Mr. Marzook's wife. 

The indictment that we have in this case that we are 

currently in trial on is a broader indictment than that. The 

allegations are different. The overt acts are different. So 

I think the differences are sufficient, and even in looking at 

the specific evidence, the differences are sufficient that I 

am going to find they are two separate agreements. 

We will grant your request for a 404(b) limiting 

instruction. And then, of course, we will grant the other 

Defendants' request that this evidence not be considered in 

any way as to the other Defendants, which I think also does 

away with the prejudice arguments. 

That will be my findings on this case. And like I said, 

we will get an order out later. 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, I think the Defendants 

other than Mr. Elashi had worked on a proposed instruction, 

which I think is actually quite similar to the one proposed in 

the motion, with the exception of adding a sentence at the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

11

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
very end that says exactly what Your Honor just said, that 

they cannot consider this evidence --

THE COURT: Actually I had that. What I was going 

to do, if you look at the one that you gave on page 10 of the 

motion that you filed, on page 10 you have a proposed 

instruction.

MS. DUNCAN: Correct.

THE COURT: So just give what you have, and then, 

"You may not consider any of this evidence in any manner as to 

any of the other Defendants for any purpose," something along 

those lines? 

MS. DUNCAN: That is what we were thinking, Your 

Honor.

THE COURT: And we will add that sentence to that 

effect there. 

MS. DUNCAN: And Your Honor, I am not sure if this 

is clear. We are asking that that instruction be given today.

THE COURT: Yes, I think it is clear. And I have 

been debating it, but I will give it today since we are 

discussing the evidence. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, when the instruction says 

this evidence, what is the universe of the evidence that we 

are talking about? 

THE COURT: It starts off with "Last Wednesday, 

October the 8th, you heard evidence of acts of Defendant 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

12

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Ghassan Elashi involving InfoCom, Mousa Abu Marzook, Nadia 

Elashi, which may be similar to those charged in the 

indictment." So it refers to that, the October the 8th 

evidence involving InfoCom. 

And then it goes on, "You must not consider any of this 

evidence in deciding if Mr. Elashi committed the acts charged 

in the indictment. However, you may consider this evidence as 

to Mr. Elashi for other very limited purposes." 

And then we will give them that, and then also the 

limiting instruction that "You may not consider this evidence 

for any purpose with regards to the other Defendants."

MR. JACKS: The Government in its response narrowed 

its perspective that the payments going from InfoCom to 

Marzook was really the extrinsic part.

THE COURT: The payments from Marzook coming this 

way, that shouldn't be part of the limiting instruction? 

MR. JACKS: Correct.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I think those were also part 

of that other case. What happened here, as I understand it, 

is Marzook and/or his wife--this is what the evidence seems to 

show--invested a substantial chunk of money in InfoCom back in 

'93 or '92, and then they received payments, or Nadia Elashi 

received payments on that investment over the years. That is 

all part of one coherent set of facts, and we view all of that 

as 404(b) if it is not part of the same agreement, for double 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

13

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
jeopardy purposes. And I think the instruction should apply 

to all of them. 

THE COURT: I think I am inclined to agree. Do you 

have any other thoughts on that? That is part and parcel of 

that conviction, it appears to be, on the second InfoCom 

trial. That was all that part of that transaction that was 

involved--money coming from Marzook to InfoCom, and then money 

going back.

MR. JACKS: I understand, Your Honor. Of course, 

our position is there was -- The money coming in from Marzook 

to InfoCom is consistent with the money that Marzook was 

investing.

THE COURT: The other? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I think the problem you have is that you 

have gotten a conviction out of that particular transaction. 

You indicted it separately, you had a trial, and you have 

gotten a conviction and a sentence out of it now.

MR. JACKS: As to the funds going out.

THE COURT: Right. But it all seems to be part of 

that. You connected it in the indictment. You started off in 

that '02 indictment with money coming from Marzook to InfoCom 

and then money going back. So I think it is going to be 

related to that. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, may I ask whether there is 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

14

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
going to be anymore evidence along those lines? 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. We will go into the letter 

that was found in Bayan Elashi's safe, and then show what 

InfoCom and Ghassan Elashi did in response to that letter. 

There is some bank documents that show that in response to 

that letter they made a wire transfer that day to answer the 

demand in the letter from Ismail Elbarasse. There is about 

three exhibits that are already admitted that address that 

series of events. And it --

THE COURT: So you are going to offer the letter? 

Is that in? 

MR. JACKS: I believe the letter is already in, Your 

Honor. It is just to further corroborate the fact that Ismail 

Elbarasse is involved in these matters, and that the Defendant 

Ghassan Elashi was the one that the letter was addressed to, 

and that in response to that letter they transferred money to 

Marzook's account. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, a couple of quick points on 

that. 

First, I don't think that letter is in. I may be 

mistaken, but I don't believe it is. 

Second, we now have Ismail Elbarasse involved in these 

events, who is another key figure in this case, further 

sharpening the double jeopardy issue and showing the identity 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

15

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
between these two alleged sets of conspiracies. 

And third, for all the reasons that we have pointed out, 

lack of notice, 403, I think this evidence needs to be cut 

off. I really think, Your Honor, that we are playing with 

fire here in terms of the kind of error and prejudice that 

this produces. 

Again, I think we went too far on Wednesday, and I think 

now the Government just wants to go even further down a very 

dangerous and mistaken road.

THE COURT: Well, I think the 404(b) limiting 

instruction takes care of a lot of what you have stated. I 

have stated I believe -- Certainly there is an argument that 

the conspiracies are related, but I don't think they are the 

same conspiracy. I think that ruling is not affected.

MR. JACKS: So, Your Honor, I would just make the 

same argument that the Defense never raised this argument 

before. Regardless of whether the evidence comes in or not, 

they never made this double jeopardy argument before, so 

they --

THE COURT: But they are raising it now in response 

to you bringing in evidence. You didn't offer this evidence 

-- this evidence was not offered at the previous trial, and 

so -- 

MR. JACKS: But I guess my point is, regardless of 

whether the evidence was offered or not, you know, if they 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

16

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
really believed that he had already been convicted of this 

same conspiracy, it seems like they would have made that 

argument pretrial and said, "This conspiracy in this Holy Land 

Foundation is the same conspiracy that he was convicted of in 

the InfoCom case." They didn't do that, so I think that goes 

to --

THE COURT: Well, I think -- And that is a point, 

but the charges, the overt acts are different, which is one of 

the bases that I am using to find that they are separate 

agreements. But you have now brought into evidence this 

evidence, in this case, evidence from the prior case. And 

that is I think what has created the issue more specifically, 

in the sense of are you trying to use the same evidence now to 

get a conviction on the charges in this case. 

And of course the 404(b) instruction takes care of that. 

You are not doing that. And that addresses that issue. But I 

am a little concerned -- Once you get into Elbarasse, it looks 

like you are getting beyond the 404(b). That is a concern 

that I am having. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I will move on from that 

issue and that --

THE COURT: So you are not going into that anymore? 

MR. JACKS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Okay. It takes care of that, then. 

All right. Any other issues? 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

17

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I have one issue. It has to 

do with Ashqar -- It is Ashqar Search No. 7. It is the 

document that was taken in Ashqar's -- in the search of his 

house.

THE COURT: The one that refers to that Iran 

meeting? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. And there are a couple of 

passages in that exhibit that I would want to refer to through 

Agent Miranda's testimony because they are relevant to a point 

that we intend to make, and -- 

THE COURT: And those were not part of what was 

admitted last week? 

MR. JACKS: I don't believe so, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Come on up here. I don't have that 

before me. Let me take a look at those. 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

MR. JACKS: Judge, the parts that I intend to refer 

to are this. I don't know how the pages are numbered on this 

exhibit, but page 4, and it is just the part I bracketed there 

that talks about Hamas' first official meeting, the minister 

granted his approval by opening an office in Tehran and had 

approved brother Imad al-Alami as a representative. 

And the other part again is this. And the reason that we 

propose to introduce this is because very shortly Agent 

Miranda is going to be talking about telephone calls that are 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

18

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
shown on the Holy Land Foundation telephone bills going to a 

telephone number for Imad al-Alami in Tehran, and it is to 

show the fact that they are calling the Hamas representative 

in Tehran, and that it is not known that that is who it is.

THE COURT: Who is calling? 

MR. JACKS: The Holy Land Foundation. It is on 

their telephone bill. So those two excerpts we would propose 

to introduce. 

Now, I propose just to have Agent Miranda read that part 

and then later redact -- provide a redacted exhibit for the 

record. 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, this is hearsay. This is 

-- "They" is the government of Iran or some representative, I 

am guessing, and so they are not a conspirator in this case, 

so that is not going to come within the conspirator exception. 

With respect to this was Hamas' first official, again 

this is hearsay. It is the minister of Iran. They can bring 

in evidence, if they have it, of who the representative is in 

Iran for Hamas, but this is hearsay. Iran is not a 

co-conspirator in this case. And again, it is hugely 

prejudicial given our country's current position with that 

country. 

And Mr. Jacks, during his questioning of Agent Miranda, 

after raising that the limited portion the Court allowed him 

to introduce, again was saying, "And let's talk about the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

19

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Hamas meeting with Iran." So they don't need this. It is 

hugely prejudicial, it is hearsay, and we would ask that it be 

excluded. 

MR. JACKS: Well, Your Honor, it is written from the 

Hamas side, somebody from -- 

THE COURT: Ashqar? 

MR. JACKS: Yes. Somebody from the Hamas side is 

describing it, you can tell it by reading it. And we have 

already gone through this issue about it is not necessary to 

identify who the speaker is. And if it is clear from the 

evidence that he was a member of the conspiracy, the fact 

that, you know, whatever the relationship is between the 

United States and Iran, I mean, it is -- All probative 

evidence is prejudicial, but it is not unfairly prejudicial. 

THE COURT: I am just trying to understand, why is 

that relevant in this case? 

MR. JACKS: To show that they knew -- 

THE COURT: That who knew? 

MR. JACKS: That the Defendants, the members of the 

conspiracy knew who Imad al-Alami was, knew he was the Hamas 

representative in Tehran.

THE COURT: When the call goes over there to him? 

MR. JACKS: Exactly.

THE COURT: So that is your link. That is your 

relevance.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

20

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, I mean, first of all, this 

wasn't a document found at the Holy Land Foundation. It was 

found at Ashqar's house. And the Government has no evidence 

that it made it to anyone in this case. 

Secondly, even if the report was written by someone in 

Hamas, that doesn't make statements by Iranian officials come 

in under the exception of hearsay.

THE COURT: Why do you think that is a statement by 

an Iranian official?

MS. DUNCAN: That the minister granted his approval, 

that the minister -- someone in Iran granted his approval is 

hearsay, and the fact that someone in Hamas is reporting that 

doesn't make it not hearsay because -- I mean, that would be 

if someone in Hamas quoted Mr. Jacks, it doesn't suddenly make 

Mr. Jacks a co-conspirator.

THE COURT: That could be offered to show their 

understanding, and then you have got this call. They have an 

office, this is a representative, and then you have got this 

call from Holy Land, on Holy Land records going to this 

individual that they understood is their representative over 

there. Why isn't that -- 

MS. DUNCAN: Again, part of the problem is that 

there is no evidence that any of the Defendants in this case 

ever saw this document. It was found in al-Ashqar's house in 

'93.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

21

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
THE COURT: These conspiracy cases, once these have 

come in they don't have to have seen it. It becomes evidence. 

I don't think they have to have seen all of the documents 

generated by other members of the conspiracy. That is not a 

requirement. 

MS. DUNCAN: That is correct, Your Honor. But in 

this case this is somebody in Hamas apparently, and so it is 

not a statement by Ashqar, in which case his knowledge would 

be imputed against these Defendants. This is someone else's 

statement that was found in his house. And there has to be 

some evidence that the Defendants in this case had knowledge 

of this document.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, later they are charged with 

a conspiracy to support Hamas. That puts them in the 

conspiracy with Hamas. Now, the fact that there is a lot of 

people that are doing that, I don't think -- that goes to the 

weight. But the fact that this is a large number of people in 

this conspiracy, and I am making this just kind of as a big 

picture argument, but, you know, the evidence in the record so 

far is much more narrow than that. And I just agree with the 

Court.

THE COURT: I think you are right. I think with 

that link that you have made, I think that becomes relevant 

and I think that is proper. 

I am still trying to understand why is that relevant, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

22

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
that Iran had agreed. 

MR. JACKS: Well, Your Honor, we think it is 

significant that the Holy Land Foundation knew the number to 

call in Tehran for the Hamas representative.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Most people are not going to be able to 

call to Tehran and get the Hamas representative.

THE COURT: So it still shows the connection between 

Holy Land and Hamas, that they would know that number? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Okay. I think that is proper. 

MR. DRATEL: I just want to say two things. 

One is the rules, even if something is not hearsay but 

has hearsay within it, it still has to be evaluated at each 

level of hearsay, and I don't think this qualifies. 

The second thing, I think the Government makes a 

breathtaking argument that is completely contrary to settle 

the ball, which is that anyone is a conspirator who has any 

contact with anyone, without identifying who they are, and 

that they are a conspirator, that every anonymous person who 

makes any statement in any document -- 

THE COURT: I think they didn't go that far. And I 

have already admitted the Ashqar documents because there are 

connections there. The law is clear that you don't have to 

have identity of other documents to make it admissible. That 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

23

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
goes to weight. You can argue whatever you want, they can 

argue whatever they want, and it is going to be up to the 

jury.

MR. DRATEL: I just wanted to respond to that, 

because the Government never made that argument before.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, as a different exhibit, 

this is Holy Land Search No. 27, which the Court sustained -- 

This document is in evidence, but the Court sustained my 403 

objections the last day we were before the Court regarding the 

Blackhawk Down issue and Somalia on 403 issues. 

I asked Mr. Jacks to please indicate what Agent Miranda 

was going to go through to see if I had any further 403 

objections. He was kind enough to do so. And I don't have 

many, except I would point the Court to it is within -- these 

are Mr. Jacks' brackets, and this particular sentence talks 

about "...and bring it down, a storm over the Jews, especially 

their leader Clinton." 

We would object on 403 grounds, Your Honor, that that is 

highly prejudicial and inflammatory and is so unrelated to the 

charges in this case, and we would ask the Court to not allow 

Mr. Jacks to question Mr. Miranda about this. It was my 

understanding Mr. Miranda was actually going to read this and 

perhaps comment on it. So that would be one objection. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: We had gone through this exhibit before, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

24

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
she had her objections, and I believe that that is not 

unfairly prejudicial. It is consistent with the tenor of what 

the Defendants and Hamas have said. This man is on their 

speakers list, and this bringing down, whatever it says, on 

the Jews --

THE COURT: Storm. 

MR. JACKS: Storm is consistent with what the 

evidence has shown about the mindset of the Defendants and the 

individuals that they associate with, and we believe that 

sentence is relevant to show that.

MS. DUNCAN: And, Your Honor, I think if that 

sentence is allowed, I think it opens the door for us to bring 

in all the evidence and facts of why the Palestinian people 

were upset with the American government's support of Israel in 

the face of the atrocities committed against the Palestinian 

people.

THE COURT: Why is that relevant to any of the 

issues that the jury is going to decide? 

MS. DUNCAN: Because this is the mindset, and also 

we find it is relevant that this document is speaking against 

Clinton, and it becomes relevant why people in Palestine -- 

that people care -- that Palestinian people would be 

expressing those thoughts towards Clinton.

MS. MORENO: Additionally, Your Honor, again, the 

other sentence that he wants to go into, it says, "The scheme 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
concocted in the White House, may God envelope with it with 

darkness, and hatred. Say amen." We believe this is 403. 

There are other passages he has indicated that I in good 

faith cannot make a 403 objection to, Your Honor, but those -- 

in particular those two I do. 

Here is a long passage they are going to go into that 

talks about Hamas, and, quite frankly, I don't have a good 

faith objection to that. But in those two discreet portions 

where they are talking about Clinton and the White House, I 

think this is absolutely 403. 

The Defendants should not be convicted because 

Palestinians harbor prejudice or hatred or animus against 

Clinton and the White House. They should be convicted because 

there is evidence that shows they supported -- materially 

supported Hamas. 

And we believe -- In fact, there are other areas that 

discuss Clinton that they are not going into, so I think those 

are -- And again, where they want to go into issues that talk 

about supporting Hamas and they have that inflammatory 

rhetoric, I am not making a 403 objection, but those two 

discreet sentences, Your Honor -- And in fact, in this 

particular sentence I would ask the Court to just redact the 

"...especially their leader Clinton," and stop "...after the 

Jews." I think that would be fair. And I would ask the Court 

not to allow them to go into this issue of the White House. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

26

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Those would be my two objections. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, this is again an attempt to 

water down the evidence and distort it in front of the jury.

THE COURT: I agree to some extent, but we can get 

too far afield is the other problem that I have. They keep 

wanting to get into this mindset and why they are mad. I 

don't think that is relevant. And the more you get into other 

things, I think the more perhaps it does open it up. I don't 

think that is a place we need to go, because that is just not 

an issue before this jury. 

And it is probably true there. I mean, the fact that 

they are mad at Clinton, it is really not relevant to your 

theory of the case. You have been showing, of course, they 

are upset with Israel and the Jews. That is what all the 

tapes and all that shows, and this shows that without having 

to get into Clinton or the White House. I think that does 

implicate 403. 

I am not even sure that that is really relevant; maybe 

just even 401, that it is just not relevant to an issue. They 

may have those attitudes, but it is just not relevant to the 

crimes they are charged with of supporting Hamas.

MR. JACKS: And it is not Clinton generally. It is 

Clinton because of his support. I mean, it is all linked. It 

is not just him generally. But that is fine, Your Honor.

THE COURT: What are they mad at? 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

27

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Support for Israel, and they equate 

that, the Defendants and their supporters and co-conspirators 

equate that with, you know, the actions of Israel.

THE COURT: And I understand that is a mindset, but 

I still don't understand how that particularly is relevant, 

other than they believe that, how that is relevant to these 

particular charges.

MR. JACKS: It goes to motive and intent, Your 

Honor. As I said, this is a man that they had on their 

speakers list. This is an audiotape in the Holy Land 

Foundation offices.

THE COURT: I understand. Part of it is coming in. 

I am going to sustain the objection as far as -- just stop it 

right there after "...the Jews." Leave out about the White 

House and -- 

MR. JACKS: Let me make sure Agent Miranda 

understands. 

MR. DRATEL: Two things. One is cosmetic. 

Mr. El-Mezain brought with him a blanket. He has 

arthritis, and so he may just use that during the day for his 

legs.

THE COURT: To cover? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes. 

THE COURT: That is fine.

MR. DRATEL: The other thing, I think this is Mr. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

28

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Jonas' issue so we don't have to do it at the bench, but I 

didn't know whether you wanted to address the Steve Simon 

memo. I mean the motion.

THE COURT: At some point we will, but I don't want 

to keep the jury waiting any longer. Let's move forward and 

pick that up at some point.

MR. DRATEL: I think they plan to bring him in 

tomorrow.

THE COURT: Just remind me sometime later in the 

day.

MR. WESTFALL: I just wanted to put into the record 

just basically for record purposes. It will take me about a 

minute or two minutes. Do you want me to do it now? 

THE COURT: Yes, while we are here. 

MR. WESTFALL: Now, I was not in InfoCom. Odeh was 

not in InfoCom. I don't know anything about InfoCom.

THE COURT: I don't think any of these others were.

MR. WESTFALL: And on behalf of Abdul Odeh, this is 

InfoCom Aging Report -- And you know, Your Honor, that the 

bates labeling system, we have heard testimony about that 

HLDL, HLNK, and all that. For the record I would like you to 

know that InfoCom Aging Report No. 1 has an NYG something or 

other bates number, not HLDL. InfoCom Aging Report 2 has NYGJ 

bates label. InfoCom Aging Report No. 3 has no bates label, 

which I believe is an indication that they backed it up off of 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

29

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
one of the computers. 

I have never seen these. I have no reason to have ever 

seen these. If I had seen them pretrial, I surely would have 

moved for a severance, just like he says we ought to have. 

Okay? If I had any knowledge of this, I would have moved for 

a severance. 

So I do appreciate the Court's limiting instruction. I 

think that is correct. However, I want the Court to 

understand that I do not waive my request for a severance 

based upon what they did with almost zero notice last 

Wednesday. The night before was the first time we ever knew 

they were going to do this. And I wasn't familiar with even 

where that was going. 

But on behalf of Abdul Odeh, despite the Court's 

instruction, I still request a mistrial and I still request a 

severance.

THE COURT: And those are still denied.

MR. DRATEL: Join for Mr. El-Mezain, Your Honor. 

MS. HOLLANDER: And I join for Mr. Shukri Abu 

Baker.

MS. CADEDDU: And I join for Mr. Abdulqader.

THE COURT: We don't grant 404 severances simply 

because 404(b) evidence comes in, and we don't grant mistrials 

based on 404(b) evidence coming in. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I just wanted it for the record.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

30

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
THE COURT: And I just wanted my reasons on the 

record.

(The following was had in open court.) 

THE COURT: Ready for the jury. 

Bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed. I hope you enjoyed your 

break. You look rested. We are ready to proceed. 

Mr. Jacks. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Good morning, Agent Miranda. 

A. Good morning, sir.

Q. I want to go back just very briefly to talk once again 

about the overseas speakers utilized by the Holy Land 

Foundation.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And let me show you what has been admitted as a 

demonstrative of HLF Search No. 87. And is that the overseas 

speaker list taken from the Holy Land Foundation computers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And I believe last week you indicated that you found 

evidence in the records of the Holy Land Foundation which 

addressed the issue of using speakers. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

31

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Could you please display HLF Search 

No. 5? 

And Your Honor, for the record, let me make a correction 

here. This exhibit was admitted previously, and there were 

some pages missing. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And Agent Miranda, have you seen the 

revised, for lack of a better word, HLF Search No. 5 with the 

missing pages added?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: So Your Honor, at this time we would 

move to admit HLF Search No. 5 as it was revised and it has 

additional pages added which have been provided to Defense 

counsel. 

THE COURT: Counsel? 

MR. CLINE: I think the previous objections, Your 

Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Those have been overruled. 

That is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, can you see on the screen 

the first page of the exhibit?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the documents, just generally what type of documents 

are these in this exhibit?

A. Occupied Land Fund board meeting minutes.

Q. And, for example, the first page here refers to what 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

32

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
board meeting? When did it take place and who was there?

A. It took place the 16th through the 18th of February, 

1991, involving the Defendants Mohammad El-Mezain, Ghassan 

Elashi, and Shukri Abu Baker, and that took place in Los 

Angeles, California.

Q. Do you see the items numerically listed below on that 

first page?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, could you enlarge the bottom 

half of the page, please? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And do you see item No. 4?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just read that into the record, please. 

A. "The OLF shall embark on telecommunication fundraising."

Q. And at this time in 1991 the Holy Land Foundation was 

still going by the name Occupied Land Fund. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where were they located -- Where was their main 

office located at that time?

A. Los Angeles.

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, could you go to page 7 of the 

exhibit?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, what particular meeting 

does this reference?

A. This references a meeting on the 5th through the 6th of 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

33

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
May, 1990, again in Los Angeles, California, involving the 

Defendants Mohammad El-Mezain, Ghassan Elashi, and Shukri Abu 

Baker. 

MR. JACKS: And if you would, please go to the next 

page, Mr. Lewis. And if you could enlarge the first page, 

please.

May I have a moment, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Would you show page 5, please? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, the board meeting minutes 

shown on this pages of the exhibit reflect what meeting and 

who was there and where was it?

A. Again, it is the meeting of the OLF, Occupied Land Fund, 

in Los Angeles on 25 through 26 July, 1990, with the 

Defendants Mohammad El-Mezain, Ghassan Elashi, and Shukri Abu 

Baker.

Q. And does it show, for example, agenda items?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just a heading in that document?

A. Yes, it does. 

MR. JACKS: Could you go to the next page, please, 

Mr. Lewis, and enlarge the top half?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And would you read, please, the top 

paragraph of that page, Mr. Miranda?

A. Yes. It reads, "Mr. Chairman confirmed that he is in 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

34

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
touch with the occupied land despite difficulties and that he 

arranged for guest speakers to visit the USA for fundraising 

purposes."

Q. And go ahead and read the next paragraph, please. 

A. "The agreed [sic] that more special events are needed in 

the field. Therefore, it has been decided that the months 

October through December should be the prime months for OLF 

special events fundraising activities."

MR. JACKS: And if we could scroll down a little 

bit. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And just read Item A. 

A. Item A, "The board advised the executive director to 

arrange activities during ISNA convention in September and 

MAYA convention in December."

Q. Who was the chairman of the board of the Holy Land, or 

excuse me, the Occupied Land Fund at that time?

A. I believe that was Mohammad El-Mezain at the time. It 

should be on the first page.

MR. JACKS: Can you go back, Mr. Lewis, to page 5? 

THE WITNESS: That is correct. Mohammad El-Mezain 

is listed as chairman, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. And in one of those board 

meeting minutes there was a reference to teleconference 

fundraising, and did you find any documents that -- And you 

testified last week about the use of teleconferences, or 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

35

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
conference calls I believe as you referred to them. Is that 

correct, sir?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. And did we hear an example of that last week?

A. Yes, we did, sir.

Q. And did we see fliers announcing that?

A. Yes, we have.

Q. Did you find other evidence in your examination of the 

evidence in this case that addressed the use of conference 

calls?

A. Yes, I have.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, do you show InfoCom Search 

No. 23 as being admitted?

THE COURT: Let me check. No.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, are you familiar with a 

document that is identified as InfoCom Search No. 23?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is it part of the documents -- Let me back up. The 

InfoCom search was conducted when?

A. September 5th through 7th, 2001.

Q. And during the course of that search, did the FBI find 

Holy Land Foundation documents within the premises of the 

InfoCom offices?

A. Many.

Q. And the documents that are in InfoCom Search No. 23, are 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

36

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
they a part of those Holy Land Foundation documents that were 

found within boxes within the InfoCom premises?

A. Yes, sir. That is correct.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would move for the admission 

of InfoCom No. 23. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MR. JACKS: Could you please display the first page 

of that, please? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And can you see the item on the screen, 

Mr. Miranda?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And just describe, if you will, what is shown on the 

screen, what the document references. 

A. This document is from the special events department and 

it is from HLF officer Haitham Maghawri for the date 3/3/96.

Q. And just to -- When was Hamas designated?

A. In January of 1995.

Q. How long after the designation of Hamas is this exhibit 

dated?

A. A year and a couple of months, roughly.

Q. And just the headings on this page or the categories, 

just what are they as shown on this first page?

A. It starts with "achievement," and you can see it says 

"field visits." There is three paragraphs under there. And 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

37

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
then it says "field trips." And then point 2 is "conference 

call" and point 3 is "infomercial and commercials, TV and 

radio."

Q. And under -- Do you see a heading for field visits?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. And item No. 2 on that particular heading, 

would you please read that into the record?

A. Yes, sir. Item No. 2 reads, "The shortage and number of 

speakers who were touring in that month, as an example we had 

two speakers till the third weekend. This affected us by 

losing many cities."

Q. Let me ask you, this document was found -- It was in 

English when it was found. Is that correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. This was not something in Arabic and then translated by 

the FBI?

A. Right.

Q. Read item No. 3 in that heading under field visits. 

A. Yes, sir. It reads, "IAP also arranged a tour to Sheikh 

Omar Sbeihi, and they tried not to create any conflict with 

our program, but they failed in a couple of cities, such as 

Tulsa, New Orleans, Puerto Rico. Accomplishments."

Q. And this Sheikh Omar Sbeihi, have we seen his name 

before?

A. Yes, sir. He is on the overseas speakers list.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

38

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Do you know what number he is? Is it No. 52?

A. No. 52. That is correct.

MR. JACKS: Would you go down to the part that says 

"field trips" and enlarge that.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Just read into the record about events, 

money collected, that type of thing.

A. Paragraph 1 says, "Field trips. Held 58 event. 

Collected $470,000. Distributed 19,000 fliers."

Q. And then the entry for conference call, if you would, 

would you please read that entry, please?

A. Yes, sir. "Conference call. Arranged two conference 

call, first one in Arabic the 9th of February '96. Speakers 

were Dr. Hammam Saeed and Mohammed Seyam, moderator was Osama. 

Performance was very good. We collected $18,500. This is 

what we knew over the phone while the conference was going on. 

The total Islamic centers who were on the line, 64. The 

second was on the 10th of February '96 in English. Speakers 

were Dr. Qadi Hussein and Abdullah Gul from Turkey. The 

performance wasn't good, especially Dr. Gul. You can hardly 

understand what he's saying. Total lines were 93."

Q. Thank you. And again, the persons referred to -- Let's 

take them in order. Hammam Saeed, is he on the speakers list?

A. Yes, sir. He would be overseas speaker No. 28.

Q. All right. And again these names on the speakers lists 

you said are arranged in what fashion?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

39

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Alphabetical by first name.

Q. Okay. The individual obviously Mohammed Seyam, we have 

heard a lot about him. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir; the Hamas leader.

Q. And in the diagram Demonstrative No. 17, which one is he?

A. He is in the orange field, upper left corner.

Q. Here where I am indicating?

A. That is correct.

Q. The individual identified as Dr. Qadi Hussein, is he on 

the overseas speakers list?

A. Yes, sir. He is overseas speaker No. 54.

Q. And is Abdullah Gul on the overseas speaker list?

A. Yes, sir. He is overseas speaker No. 5.

Q. Let me again direct your attention, Agent Miranda, on the 

topic of the speakers. You testified last week about an 

individual or gave testimony about an individual that went by 

the name of Deeb Anees. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he is No. 18 on the speakers list?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Is he sometimes referred to as Zeeb Anees, with the 

letter Z like in zebra?

A. I have seen that variation as well.

Q. Do you recall the intercepted telephone conversation that 

we played last week between Mr. Abu Baker and Abdulrahman Odeh 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

40

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
where they were discussing this individual Deeb Anees?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. And if you would, just refresh our memory. What was the 

subject matter of that particular conversation?

A. The Defendant Abdulrahman Odeh was telling the Defendant 

Shukri Abu Baker that Deeb Anees had raised some money in the 

name of Palestine and this upset Mr. Baker. And Mr. Baker had 

said something to the effect that Deeb Anees raises money 

openly in the name of Samah.

Q. Samah being?

A. Hamas spelled backwards.

Q. All right. And this fundraising, where was it supposed 

to take place?

A. New Jersey is my understanding.

Q. And what caused the problem with the Holy Land 

Foundation?

A. There was a couple of issues in the conversation. One 

was that it wasn't previously coordinated with the Holy Land. 

One was that it was done in the name of -- 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, he is misrepresenting 

this conversation and we object. They should read the 

conversation, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks?

MR. WESTFALL: It is in evidence. 

THE COURT: I understand. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

41

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Your Honor --

THE COURT: I think he is entitled to paraphrase. 

If you want to cross examine on that you may do so. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What was the second issue?

A. That Deeb Anees was raising money in the name of 

Palestine, and nobody does that except for the HLF. 

Another issue was that Mr. Baker was saying, "If I take 

$8,000 from this guy, he is going to ask me for $15,000." And 

then, of course, one of the issues discussed was how Mr. Baker 

had some special circumstances and that Deeb Anees was going 

to cause him problems.

Q. With regard to Deeb Anees, was there other evidence 

introduced last week showing his fundraising efforts for the 

Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes. We had evidence that he traveled to South America 

in 1994 and collected some money, spoke about the Islamic 

Movement, and that was in a fax that was sent to the Defendant 

Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And this conversation between Shukri Abu Baker and 

Abdulrahman Odeh about this problem in New Jersey, that was on 

December 12th, 1999. Is that correct?

A. Right, 12/12/1999.

Q. Did you find other evidence among the records of the Holy 

Land Foundation that reflected activity over a relationship 

between the Holy Land Foundation and this Deeb Anees?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

42

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall coming across some documents that bore the 

title "HLF general activities"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And other documents that bore the title "solicitor 

analysis report"?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we would move the admission 

of -- 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Were those items found in the search of 

the Holy Land Foundation materials or office materials?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And were some of those found in the Newark office of the 

Holy Land Foundation?

A. Right, in the New Jersey office, yes, sir, some of them 

were.

Q. When I say Newark, what FBI office covers New Jersey?

A. The Newark Division.

Q. But the Holy Land Foundation office was in what town in 

New Jersey?

A. Paterson.

Q. Okay. And were some of those documents also found in the 

Holy Land Foundation Dallas office?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would move the admission of 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

43

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Holy Land Foundation Search No. 177 and No. 178. 

THE COURT: Counsel?

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, may I just confer with 

Mr. Jacks for a second? I received these about 1:00 this 

morning.

THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead.

MR. WESTFALL: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That is HLF Search No. 177 and 178. 

Those are admitted. 

MR. JACKS: Would you please display No. 177, 

please, HLF Search No. 177?

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, may I confer with 

Mr. Jacks again?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, I am going to use the 

projector for these exhibits. Is what is shown on the screen 

the first page of HLF Search No. 177?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you said you found references to Deeb Anees, and can 

you just indicate where on that exhibit those references 

appear?

A. Yes, sir. On this page there are three entries for Theeb 

or Deeb Anees.

Q. If you would direct me where. 

A. If you go all the way to the left column it says the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

44

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
first entry on 6/20/1994. There is one underneath that.

Q. This one her?

A. Yes. That looks like a 1, but it is actually a hole in 

the page. And there is an additional one, so there is three 

in a row there all apparently for 6/20/1994.

Q. And the column to -- The second column to the right, how 

is it headed or titled?

A. "Deposit."

Q. Okay. And those reflect deposits of what amounts next to 

the name of Theeb Anees?

A. $50, $50, and $25 respectively.

Q. This is the second page of this exhibit. Does it have 

any reference to this Theeb Anees or activity regarding him?

A. Yes, sir. If you go to the date 11/8/1995, you will see 

it reads, "Tolls, Sheikh"--which is abbreviated--"Theeb Anees 

for $10."

Q. All right. And that is under the column for what type of 

a transaction? What is the heading for that column?

A. It reads "tolls."

Q. No, but the column, the heading of the column is what?

A. The date? 

Q. No, the column is called -- What is above it. What is 

the total for the column?

A. Yes, sir. On the very top of the page? 

Q. Yes, sir. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

45

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. "HLF New Jersey activities."

Q. All right. And the column with the $10 in it is titled 

what?

A. "Payment C."

Q. Thank you. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And going to the third page of the exhibit, any reference 

showing activity with this Deeb Anees?

A. Yes, sir. The third down on the date 10/31/1996 there is 

a transaction that reads "Lunch, Sheikh Anees Deeb" for the 

amount of $44.30.

Q. And again that is in the payment column?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you interpret that as money going out from the Holy 

Land Foundation that they wrote a check, or somehow -- 

A. In this case they paid for lunch.

Q. All right. That is what it looks like to you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And let me just show you the next page of the exhibit. 

Does that appear to have another entry for that lunch for 

Sheikh Anees?

A. Right, the second one there, the second line.

Q. And the fifth page of the exhibit, does this appear to be 

like some kind of summary of these transactions in this 

account?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

46

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. And are the references to Deeb Anees, do they 

appear on this page?

A. Yes, they do, kind of about -- not quite halfway down on 

the date 11/6.

Q. All right. 

A. It says "Sheikh Deeb Anees," it says "DI," and "minus 

70."

Q. All right. And to go to the next page, and I believe -- 

Again, this exhibit came from which HLF office?

A. The New Jersey office, sir.

Q. Is there a reference to this Deeb Anees on this page?

A. Yes. The very last entry is for -- It is kind of hard to 

read, but I think that is 11/6/1996. If you go to the top of 

the page I would like to confirm.

Q. The hole may have obliterated the month. 

A. I believe it is 11/6. It corresponds to the $70 we saw 

on the previous page.

Q. So it is another reference for the $70. 

A. Yes, this time for dinner.

Q. And do those entries appear again on this final page of 

the exhibit for Deeb Anees?

A. Right. Just maybe a line above the hole in the page 

there on 11/6. Actually there is a couple of entries on 

10/31, "lunch Sheikh Anees," and then if you go down a little 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

47

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
bit right above that hole you can see 11/6, "Sheikh Deeb 

Anees." That is for the $70 we just looked at.

Q. So apparently reimbursing him for lunch and dinner?

A. Or money spent on lunch and dinner.

Q. Okay. And let me show you what has been admitted as HLF 

Search No. 178. And the title of this exhibit?

A. "Solicitor analysis report."

Q. And are there references on this report -- And what is 

the date of this report?

A. 10/30/1997.

Q. Is this where it is shown? 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And references to Deeb Anees, do they appear on this 

exhibit?

A. Yes, sir; right in the middle of the page within the 

yellow highlighting.

Q. And just read what the entry is on that line by the pen?

A. Yes, sir. It reads, "Anees, plus Mezain, plus Jabbar 

$83,6300.30."

Q. And the entry above that?

A. "Anees plus Mezain by Said, $33,853.67."

Q. Let me show you the second page of the exhibit, and are 

there entries on that page that reflect activity in the name 

of Anees?

A. It is quite a few entries actually.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

48

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Okay. Just tell me where --

A. Probably the easiest way to do it is look under the 

column listed as "solicitor." That is the column all the way 

to the right.

Q. And again, is there a reference to show what date is 

being talked about or referenced?

A. Just the year. If you look all the way to the left, the 

first column says 1997.

Q. All right. Just for the record what are the columns as 

you go across the page?

A. It reads "year," "city," "sum," and "solicitor."

Q. All right. And let's start going through what is shown 

here that may have anything to do with Deeb Anees. 

A. Yes, sir. It shows in '97 in Chicago the amount of $975, 

the solicitors were Anees plus Mezain plus Jabbar.

Q. I have been preempted on the elmo. Is what you see the 

electronic version of this?

A. Yes, that is correct, sir.

Q. Okay. All right. If you, you were looking at Chicago. 

Is that correct?

A. Right. It says '97 Chicago, and I just read the amount 

of $975.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, may we approach for a 

second? 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

49

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
jury.)

MR. DRATEL: We just got these overnight, so the 

notations, the handwritten notations, whose are they? Are 

they on the document originally? 

MR. JACKS: Yes. 

MR. DRATEL: Okay. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) For the record, Mr. Miranda, there are 

marks, handwritten markings on this exhibit. Were those on 

there when they were seized?

A. Yes, sir, to my knowledge they were.

Q. Going back up to the entries you were talking about, 1997 

Chicago, what two entries there reflect some activity or 

attribution to Anees?

A. Yes, sir. The second one reads "$15,080, Anees plus 

Mezain plus Said."

Q. And is there one shown there for Detroit?

A. Yes, sir. "1997, Detroit, $400, Anees plus Mezain plus 

Jabbar."

Q. What is the next one shown there?

A. It reads, "Los Angeles." I believe this is still under 

the time frame of 1997. It reads, "$11,510, Anees plus Mezain 

plus are Jabbar."

Q. And just when was the -- When was Hamas designated as a 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

50

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
terrorist organization?

A. 1995.

Q. And when was it designated as a foreign terrorist 

organization?

A. 1997.

Q. And you have talked about Los Angeles. Could you 

scroll -- Do you see others there on the screen now?

A. Yes, sir. There is one under New Jersey for $4,150, 

Anees plus Mezain plus Jabbar.

MR. JACKS: Could you scroll down, please, Jim? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And do you see one there in San Diego?

A. Yes, sir. I believe this is still under 1997 San Diego, 

$1,775, Anees plus Mezain plus Jab. Chicago $50, Anees plus 

Mezain plus Jab, which is probably Jabbar. Chicago $550, 

Anees Mezain Jabbar. Chicago, $10,450, Anees plus Mezain plus 

Said.

Q. Los Angeles in '97, do you see some entries? 

A. Yes, sir. $2,000 for Anees, Mezain, Jab. The next on is 

$7,475, Anees plus Mezain plus Jabbar. 

Q. And New Jersey? 

A. New Jersey. $750, Anees plus Mezain plus Jab. The next 

line is $3,500, Anees plus Mezain plus Jabbar.

Q. Would you go to San Diego in 1997?

A. $150, Anees plus Mezain plus Jab.

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page of the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

51

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
exhibit, please, Jim?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And what is the date on the heading 

reflecting these records, Mr. Miranda? 

A. These are going to reflect 1998 and 1999 time frames.

Q. Under -- What is the first entry that shows any reference 

to Anees?

A. It is 1999 Chicago for $200, Anees plus Mezain plus Jab. 

The line underneath that is $4,000, Anees plus Mezain plus 

Said.

Q. And go down I guess to the Los Angeles entry. 

A. Yes, sir. Still 1999 is the date, $1,550, Anees plus 

Mezain plus Jab. The next entry is $1,000, Anees plus Mezain 

plus Jabbar.

Q. New Jersey?

A. Still 1999, $650, Anees plus Mezain plus Jab. The next 

line is $1,000, Anees plus Mezain plus Jabbar.

Q. Would you go down to Orange County?

A. Orange County is $70, Anees plus Mezain plus Jabbar. 

Then there is one for $100, Anees plus Mezain plus Said.

Q. And is there a total that reflects for all of these 

entries how much is attributed to these different solicitors, 

if you will?

A. The grand total is $542,531.33.

Q. And these records, according to the documents, makes 

reference to the years 1997, '98, and '99?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

52

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Agent Miranda, I want to move away from the overseas 

speakers and the speakers in general and ask you about another 

subject matter. 

In the course of your participation in this 

investigation, did you examine telephone records that were 

either acquired by subpoena or found in the execution of 

search warrants? 

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. And you have already told us that one of the exhibits or 

pieces of evidence that you looked at was a telephone book 

taken from Mousa Abu Marzook. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And when and where was that telephone book taken from 

him?

A. The telephone book was seized when he and his wife 

attempted to enter the country at JFK Airport in New York in 

July 1995.

Q. Did you look at, among other things, the telephone book 

and then see if there were any persons shown in that telephone 

book who are now specially designated terrorists?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Did you find any persons that fit that category?

A. Yes, sir, I found several.

Q. All right. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

53

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Could you please display Marzook 

Phonebook, just the first page?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is that a scanned copy on the screen, 

Mr. Miranda, the first -- the outside cover of that phonebook?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

MR. JACKS: And Mr. Lewis, could you display what 

has been admitted as Designation No. 1?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, I believe you testified 

previously regarding an individual Imad al-Alami?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: And Mr. Lewis, could you please enlarge 

designation No. 1? 

Your Honor, I am not sure Designation No. 1 has been 

admitted, and we would move its admission as a certified 

Government document. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JACKS: I apologize, Your Honor. I thought it 

had been admitted.

Mr. Lewis, can you show the second page of Designation 

No. 1? And the third page, if you would. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, do you see a reference to 

an Imad al-Alami?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. And the fact that his name is there, what is the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

54

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
designation -- what is the reference to him there?

A. He is being designated as a specially designated 

terrorist.

Q. And is he contained within Mousa Abu Marzook's address 

book or phonebook?

A. Yes, sir, he is.

Q. And what page was he shown on?

A. I would have to look, sir.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, can you show I believe it is 

going to be page 46 of the exhibit, of the phonebook exhibit, 

if you don't mind. 

THE WITNESS: That is correct, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And where is the entry for Imad al-Alami?

A. He is the fourth entry down on the left hand of the 

exhibit. It reads, "Imad al-Alami, office," and then there is 

two telephone numbers.

Q. The first being 6069313?

A. That is correct.

Q. And the last one being 687885?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, could we have a date on 

Designation No. 1, please.

MR. JACKS: Go back, Mr. Lewis, if you would, to the 

second page -- the last page actually I believe of that 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

55

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
exhibit.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What is the date shown, Agent Miranda, 

that this designation was entered into effect?

A. 8/21/03.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Would you go back, Mr. Lewis, on that 

exhibit to page 4?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And do you see other persons that are 

designated that were in Mousa Abu Marzook's phonebook?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. Which one? What is the first one?

A. Khalid Mishal.

Q. And his designation was in connection with which 

organization?

A. Hamas.

Q. And the entry -- Of course Mr. Marzook is shown there. 

And the entry under Mr. Marzook?

A. Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. Under him. I am sorry. 

A. I am sorry. Abdel Aziz Rantisi. 

Q. Which organization is he with?

A. Hamas.

Q. Mr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi, is he in Mr. Marzook's phonebook, 

please?

A. I believe he is, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

56

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: If you would go to page 38 of the 

phonebook, please, and enlarge the bottom part of the page, if 

you would. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you see an entry that is consistent 

with Aziz Rantisi?

A. Yes, sir. There is an entry for Abdel Aziz.

Q. And the 838017 number? 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And Khalid Mishal, was he referenced in Marzook's 

telephone book?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Would you go to page 54, I believe? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you see a reference to Khalid Mishal?

A. Yes, sir. Fourth up from the bottom it reads Khaled 

Abdel Rahim, 697163.

Q. And is there other evidence or other exhibits that 

connect that telephone number to Khalid Mishal that we will be 

getting to?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you talk about telephone records and you use the 

term telephone toll records, what do you generally refer to?

A. That is a request to the telephone company for the 

records of a particular phone.

Q. And toll records are what type of records? What do they 

show?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

57

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. They are going to show generally who the subscriber to 

the telephone is, whose account it is, telephones -- The dates 

that somebody made a telephone call, the numbers called from 

that account.

Q. Do they generally include long distance calls or local 

calls or both?

A. Sometimes both. Long distance generally are for sure 

something you would see.

Q. All right. And in your experience -- You said you have 

been with the Bureau for over ten years. Is that correct?

A. Over 11, yes.

Q. Over 11 years. Do telephone companies keep their toll 

records indefinitely or forever?

A. No. They only keep them for a certain amount of time 

before they destroy them.

Q. All right. And have you ever been told why that is?

A. Presumably because it just takes too much information.

Q. Do they purge their records periodically?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. And in the course of this case, did you ever come across 

telephone records that were taken during the execution of a 

search warrant?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And those records that would be found during the 

execution of a search warrant, what type of -- What form were 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

58

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
those telephone records in?

A. Those were typically phone bills, just like you would 

receive at home.

Q. All right. And did those bills include records of 

itemized calls that would be included in a bill?

A. Yes, sir, they did.

Q. When you were looking at this evidence and these phone 

bills or phone tolls, did you ever look to see if there were 

telephone connections between any of the Defendants, the Holy 

Land Foundation, and persons who have been or will be shown to 

be members of Hamas?

A. I did that given the extent of the information I had or 

the limitations on the information I had, but yes, I did that.

Q. You testified a moment ago about this individual Imad 

al-Alami. Is that right?

A. Right.

Q. And let me show you Demonstrative No. 17. And is he 

shown in this poster?

A. Yes, sir. He is in the black and white picture all the 

way on the bottom left in the orange area.

Q. Okay. Bottom row far left?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. And according to -- Who was Imad al-Alami in connection 

with Hamas?

A. He was originally their -- I should say he was the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

59

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
original Hamas representative in Tehran, Iran.

Q. And did you ever locate any evidence that corroborated 

that fact?

A. Yes, I did.

MR. JACKS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Mr. Miranda, I am going to show you an 

exhibit that is marked as Ashqar Search No. 7. And for the 

record, you were shown this exhibit last week and I believe 

you read certain excerpts from this exhibit, and I would like 

to ask you to do that again today. 

Just for the purposes of the record, just look at that 

and do you recognize that as a document photographed during 

the search of Abdel Haleem Ashqar's house in Oxford, 

Mississippi in 1993? 

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. And the document consists of several pages in Arabic. Is 

that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did the FBI later translate those pages into English?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Let me direct your attention, then, to the first 

page, and the English translation. And I believe you have 

already read the entry at the top which just contains a date 

range, does it not?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

60

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, it does, sir.

Q. And what is the date range shown on that particular 

entry?

A. October 13th through the 25th, 1991.

Q. And does that entry talk about the Hamas delegation and 

who was in it to visit Tehran?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And the persons that are referenced in that delegation 

are who?

A. It says Abu Omar, who of course is Mousa Abu Marzook, 

there is an Abdel Aziz, Abdel Bara, and Abu Mahmud, who I have 

mentioned several times is the Abu name for Mohammed Siam from 

our chart here and from the overseas speakers list. There is 

an Abu Hammam and an Abu Ali.

Q. And the Abdel Aziz, who uses that name?

A. Abdel Aziz Rantisi is one individual.

Q. Is he on the chart, Demonstrative No. 17?

A. Yes, in the orange section, top row, second from the 

right.

Q. All right. And I am going to ask you if you would just, 

Agent Miranda, would you read the entry that I have marked? 

It is about three lines there. Just read that into the 

record. And this is again under the heading the date range of 

October 13th to the 25th of 1991. Is that correct?

A. Right, sir. And it reads, "This was Hamas' first 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

61

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
official meeting with the Iranian government. The minister 

granted his approval to open an office for Hamas in Tehran and 

to approve brother Imad al-Alami as a representative for the 

Movement over there."

Q. And I am going to turn to the next page, if you will, and 

do these entries on these pages contain dates out to the side 

attributing whatever is written in to a particular date?

A. Yes, sir, they do.

Q. Directing your attention to item No. 7, what is the date 

shown there?

A. 5/22/1992.

Q. And then going to the next page, is there a heading, and 

if you would read the heading on the next page of the exhibit 

which has -- 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, can we approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, we discussed a very narrow 

portion of this document. Now Mr. Jacks is getting into a 

whole bunch of different pages. We have dates we haven't 

discussed, and now we are getting into events we haven't 

discussed.

MR. JACKS: This is the heading I was going to have 

him read and then have him read this sentence. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

62

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MS. DUNCAN: I think I may have got the page wrong. 

That wasn't the page that was up or you named because I 

thought we were reading -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: It is not. He was reading this and 

then the next page is totally different. This is not the next 

page on our exhibit. Our exhibit doesn't have that. It has 

that.

MS. DUNCAN: It goes to here and it goes to there. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. I will just reference it by that 

and have him read that and then that, so that the record is 

clear that it is talking about that page, that page, and that.

MS. DUNCAN: Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I just want to raise a 

problem that the Government keeps changing these exhibits 

after we get them. This is not the same exhibit that we have. 

We have an entirely different order. 

THE COURT: It is the same exhibit. It may be in a 

different order. Has it all come in? 

MR. JACKS: He has read from it, Your Honor.

THE COURT: A few portions.

MR. JACKS: Right. And our proposal is to redact it 

before it goes to the jury.

THE COURT: What you send back is what has been 

read? 

MR. JACKS: Yes. What happened was I had my pages 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

63

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
out of order in the exhibit, and I apologize for that.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

MR. JACKS: May I reapproach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) For clarity's sake, this was the page I 

was about to ask you to read from. And for reference, what is 

the heading, if you will? I am talking about these letters 

and numbers up in the upper left. 

A. Ash, A-S-H, 1586.

Q. That page, what is the heading for this particular page?

A. "Useful information regarding the relationship with 

Iran."

Q. And are there a series of items below that that are 

numbered?

A. Twenty of them, yes.

Q. Would you look at item No. 7?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And just read that one line, please. 

A. Item No. 7. "They are keen on maintaining the secrecy of 

the relationship in the present time."

Q. Getting back to your examination of the telephone 

records, did you find any indication of phone calls from the 

Holy Land Foundation to Imad al-Alami in Iran?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

64

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Are you familiar with a document identified as HLF Search 

No. 9?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And are those -- Is that a copy of phone bills that were 

seized during the search of the Holy Land Foundation 

materials?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we move the admission of 

Holy Land Foundation Search No. 9. 

MS. MORENO: I think they are already in evidence, 

Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, could you please display the 

first page of that exhibit? And just, if you would, enlarge 

the top portion.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What company records are these, Mr. 

Miranda?

A. These are for the Occupied Land Fund.

Q. And what is the company or telephone company that is 

reflected?

A. Pacific Bell.

Q. And again, these records were found in the records of the 

Holy Land Foundation, not -- These did not come from Pacific 

Bell. Is that correct?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

65

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. No. These were found at the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. All right. And is there a date for this particular 

statement?

A. That particular statement is May 8th, 1990.

Q. And is there anything that shows the telephone number?

A. Yes; the account number.

Q. Okay.

A. Basically portions of the account number is the telephone 

number.

Q. Okay. Which part of it represents the telephone number?

A. 213-568-9164.

Q. Okay. And where was the Occupied Land Fund located, 

according to this record?

A. At that time it was in Culver City, California.

Q. And is that near Los Angeles or a suburb of Los Angeles?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

MR. JACKS: If you could go to page 7 of this 

exhibit, please, Jim.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is this another telephone bill from 

Pacific Bell to the Occupied Land Fund?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. And what is the date for this statement?

A. This statement is dated March 8th, 1992.

Q. And how about the phone number? Is it the same or 

different on this particular statement?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

66

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. No, it is different. In this case it is 310-568-9164. 

MR. JACKS: Jim, could you go to page 27 of the 

exhibit? Could you go to the next page, please? I am sorry. 

Go back two pages, Mr. Lewis. Can you enlarge the bottom 

half, say, of that page? 

MS. HOLLANDER: What page of the exhibit? I have 

gotten lost there.

MR. JACKS: Page 26. I believe it is page 26. Mr. 

Lewis, would you just zoom out for a moment.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Mr. Miranda, what is the date of the bill 

and then the date range, if you will, for the calls shown on 

this particular page?

A. The date of the bill is March 8th, 1992, and the calls 

range from February 24th, 1992 through February 25th, 1992. 

MR. JACKS: And if you would, Mr. Lewis, just 

enlarge the bottom half of that page, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, are there calls to Iran 

reflected on this particular bill?

A. There are five phone calls to Iran on this bill.

Q. And are the calls numbered on the far left column?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. So what numbers would they be?

A. No. 32, 33, 34, 35, and 36.

Q. All to the same number in Iran?

A. Yes, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

67

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. And in the earlier evidence that you have shown us, what 

number is that or whose number is that?

A. This number is going to correspond to Imad al-Alami.

Q. And was that in Marzook's phonebook?

A. If it is not in Marzook's phonebook it is in Ashqar's 

documentation.

Q. And when you say Ashqar's documentation, what type of 

documentation are you talking about?

A. A phonebook for Abdel Haleem Ashqar.

Q. And is that something that was taken or photographed 

during the search of Ashqar's house in 1993?

A. Yes, sir, it was.

Q. Let me show you what has been marked for identification 

purposes Ashqar Search No. 3. And can you identify this as 

the document you were just referencing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. And is this a page from a telephone or address 

book photographed during the search of Ashqar's house?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we move admission of Ashqar 

Search No. 3.

MR. CLINE: We object on the basis of our written 

objections.

THE COURT: Those have been overruled. Ashqar 

Search No. 3 is admitted. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

68

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, can you do a split screen and 

show Ashqar Search No. 3? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, is that the first page of 

the exhibit that shows the reference to the camera roll and 

that type of thing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. I am talking about what is shown on the right 

hand side of the screen. 

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is that a photograph of the original page 

of that address book?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, Jim.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is that the translation that was done by 

the FBI of that entry, that page of the Ashqar phonebook?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Is there an entry there for Imad al-Alami?

A. Yes, it is the 7th down. It says "Imad al-Alami 

(Tehran)" and some telephone numbers after it.

Q. And do those telephone numbers correspond to the numbers 

shown on the phone bill from the Holy Land Foundation?

A. The first number does. The Holy Land phone bill is calls 

to Iran are to 98212-29510, and Abdel Haleem Ashqar's 

phonebook has it listed as 011-98212-29510.

Q. Have you made overseas long distance calls yourself?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

69

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes.

Q. All right. And to do that, do you have to dial certain 

numbers first to start that process or to make an overseas 

call?

A. Yes, you do.

Q. From the United States, what numbers do you need to dial 

first?

A. It depends on the country.

Q. Okay. But is there certain numbers you have to dial to 

even get to the line to make an overseas call?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Now, we are familiar that areas within the 

United States have area codes. Is that correct?

A. Right.

Q. What about foreign countries?

A. You have country codes and area codes.

Q. All right. And generally are country codes similar to an 

area code that you would dial to reach some place within the 

United States?

A. In general, yes.

Q. I mean, it is -- How many numbers generally are in a 

country code?

A. Three is what I am familiar with.

Q. And then depending on the country, can you tell us are 

there area codes within the country that you may have to dial?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

70

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Right. You have to do that, too.

Q. All right. And then would you also have to dial the 

number for the specific telephone?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. For example, in this particular case with 

Iran, what is the country code for Iran, or what does it 

appear to be?

A. In this case the country code I believe is going to 

be -- Let me back up the numbers here. I think it is going to 

be 98 or 982.

Q. All right. And then as I said, depending on the country 

and perhaps the number of phones in the country, will there 

sometimes be a city code within a country code that has to be 

dialed?

A. Right.

Q. And is this one way from these exhibits or this evidence 

that you connected this particular telephone number to Imad 

al-Alami?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this particular phone bill I believe was May of '92, 

and the reference to the establishment of an office in Tehran 

for Hamas that you read from that Ashqar exhibit, when did 

that begin?

A. In 1992 after these phone calls from the HLF, shortly 

after.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

71

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. I believe you testified last week regarding other 

evidence that you found that further identified Imad al-Alami. 

MR. JACKS: Can you please, Mr. Lewis, pull up 

Ashqar Search No. 14? And if you will go to the second page, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, do you recognize this as a 

document photographed during the search of Ashqar's house?

A. Yes, I do, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Could you go to the next page, please?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is this a translation of that one 

page of this exhibit?

A. Yes, of that one page.

Q. And is there identification of Imad al-Alami -- First of 

all, this document makes reference to what type of event?

A. It was the popular Arab and Islamic conference.

Q. What date?

A. 1/3/1993.

Q. And any reference in there identifying Imad al-Alami?

A. Yes. In the very first paragraph in the main body it 

says "in attendance," and it says, "Hamas delegation," and 

within the Hamas delegation Imad al-Alami is listed.

Q. All right. Did you examine telephone records from the 

Holy Land Foundation or any of the Defendants and find any 

reference to an individual identified as Mustafa Qanuo?

A. Yes, I have.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

72

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. And who is Moustafa Qanuo? 

A. He was the Hamas representative in Syria.

Q. And are you familiar with -- 

MR. JACKS: First of all, Jim, can you show Marzook 

phonebook page 58 of the exhibit, please? And can you find on 

that particular page -- This is obviously the English 

translation of what was in the address book. Correct?

A. Right, sir.

Q. And at the top of the page you see the reference to page 

21. What does that represent?

A. It is going to represent the page within Marzook's 

telephone book.

Q. All right. And then it has kind of got descriptors like 

right column?

A. Correct.

Q. And is there a reference there to a Moustafa?

A. Right. If you go to the section that says left column, 

that second paragraph down it has the numbers and then there 

is a line.

Q. All right. What is now the top line on the screen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And just describe -- It is not necessary that you read it 

exactly, but just describe what is shown there. 

A. There is an entry for the Hamas representative Moustafa 

al-Qanuo.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

73

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. And are there phone numbers or apparent phone numbers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The 963 country code, do you know what country that is?

A. Syria.

Q. Below that there is an entry. What is the entry on the 

left hand side below the Moustafa al-Qanuo name?

A. There is a entry for Munir with a Syrian telephone 

number.

Q. What are the last four digits of that particular 

telephone number?

A. 1159.

Q. Did you find that particular phone number had been called 

by examining any records within the Holy Land Foundation 

search warrant records?

A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. Are you familiar with what has been marked as Holy Land 

Foundation Search Records No. 130?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Are those copies of phone bills that were seized during 

the search of the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Right, the Dallas office in this instance.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we move the admission of 

Holy Land Foundation Search No. 130. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

74

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: And Jim, if you can just display that, 

please.

THE COURT: Before we get there, let's take the 

morning break.

Be back at ten after 11:00. 

(Brief recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, before we broke you were 

testifying regarding this examination that you did of Holy 

Land Foundation and other persons' phone bills, and numbers 

that they may have called.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you examine the evidence in this case to see if 

you could find records indicating calls to Mohammed Siam?

A. Yes, I did, sir.

Q. And again, Mr. Siam, Mohammed Siam is shown on 

Demonstrative No. 17 in the middle row to the far left?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. And how has he been identified in relation to Hamas?

A. He is a Hamas roving ambassador essentially.

Q. Has he been shown and depicted in some of the videos that 

were seized in this case?

A. Yes, we have shown some videos with him in it.

Q. Let me just make reference to -- 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

75

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) I show you was has been marked for 

identification purposes as Holy Land Foundation Search 

No. 115. And are those -- Is that the original of some 

telephone bills or a telephone bill that was seized from the 

materials seized during the Holy Land Foundation search?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. Let me show you what has been marked for identification 

as Holy Land Foundation Search No. 117. And is that also a 

telephone bill that was seized during the search of the Holy 

Land Foundation offices?

A. Yes, again it is, sir.

Q. And what has been marked for identification purposes as 

Holy Land Foundation Search No. 119, is that also a telephone 

bill seized during the search of the Holy Land Foundation 

offices in Dallas?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, we move the admission of Holy 

Land Foundation Search No. 115, 117, and 119. 

THE COURT: I think you previously indicated no 

objections on those. 

MR. CLINE: No objections. 

THE COURT: Those are admitted. 

MR. JACKS: And Jim, could you display Marzook 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

76

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Phonebook, page 41 of the exhibit?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, do you recognize part of 

the English translation of the contents of Marzook's 

phonebook?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. And again, page 5 reference at the top refers to what?

A. Page 5 of Marzook's phonebook.

Q. And the names and the numbers entered there, could you 

please just tell us for the record what names are there?

A. There is the name Abu Mahmoud and Abu Hamzah.

Q. And who uses the name Abu Mahmoud?

A. The Hamas leader Mohammed Siam.

Q. And the number that is shown there -- First of all, in 

your investigation did you determine where Mohammed Siam lived 

or stayed most of the time?

A. Yes.

Q. During this time frame?

A. During this particular time frame, yes.

Q. Where was that?

A. Yemen.

Q. Where is Yemen?

A. Yemen is at the bottom of the Saudi Peninsula.

Q. All right. And there is other numbers there. Did those 

numbers reappear in the exhibits?

A. Yes, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

77

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Which numbers will you see or show us later on?

A. We are going to see reference to the 3823 number. That 

would be -- The full number is 967 -- 

Q. That has home written beside it?

A. Yes, sir, home written beside it. And also there is a 

reference to the two numbers labeled office, the 216851, and 

further out the 204733.

Q. All right. And from your investigation, are those 

numbers also in the country of Yemen?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, could you display HLF Search 

No. 119? And if you could enlarge the page so that the 

witness can see it, just the top part, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, is this just an excerpt 

from the telephone bill that is reflected here?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. And who is the subscriber? Whose telephone bill is it?

A. It is to the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. What is the invoice date?

A. The invoice date is all the way to the far right and it 

is March 10th, 1994.

Q. So the calls that are reflected on this precede March 

10th, 1994. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: If you would go to the next page, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

78

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
please, and just enlarge the middle of the page.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And are there calls reflected on that 

phone bill to the country of Yemen?

A. Yes, sir. The calls would be No. 25, 26, and 27, if you 

look at the column all the way to the far left and just move 

over to the right.

Q. All right. And then the numbers called?

A. The first number is 9671204733. That is the call 

on -- That is No. 25. The call No. 26 is telephone number 

9671216851, and then call No. 27 is 9671203823, all of which 

occurred on February 9th, 1994.

MR. JACKS: And Mr. Lewis, if you could go back to 

page 41 of Marzook Phonebook. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) So you have calls to the 3823 number?

A. Yes, sir; the home phone number for Mohammed Siam.

Q. The 685 number?

A. The office number, yes, sir? 

Q. And then the 3662 number. Is that correct?

A. No, sir. I believe it was the 4733. 

Q. All right. 

A. That is correct. It is 4733.

Q. All right. Were there other records indicating other 

calls to Mohammed Siam?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Jim, could you display HLF Search 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

79

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
No. 115?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And these are records for what telephone 

company?

A. Coastal Telephone Company.

Q. And for the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is the phone number that these calls go to?

A. 214-699-9868.

Q. And this would have been after the Holy Land Foundation 

relocated to Dallas or Richardson?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. And just looking at the first page, what is the billing 

date -- 

MR. JACKS: Go to the second page of the exhibit, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) The billing date shown on this particular 

excerpt?

A. March 5th, 1995.

Q. And are there calls to Yemen shown on this particular 

exhibit?

A. Yes, sir. I see four calls.

Q. What number call is reflected in the column to the left?

A. There is No. 83, No. 84, No. 89, and No. 90.

Q. And what date are these calls made, according to the 

exhibit?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

80

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. No. 83 and 84 are February 22nd, 1995, and calls No. 89 

and 90 are February 25th, 1995.

Q. In relation to Hamas being a specially designated 

terrorist, is this before or after?

A. After Hamas has been designated. 

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Any other calls to Yemen on that page?

A. Yes. There is a call No. 197 on March 24th, 1995.

Q. And is that to the same numbers that were shown, one of 

the same numbers shown in Mousa Abu Marzook's address book or 

phonebook?

A. Yeah. In this case, sir, it is Mohammed Siam's home 

phone number.

Q. All right. And have all of the numbers that you have 

testified about with regard to calls to Yemen been connected 

to Mohammed Siam through that entry in Marzook's phonebook?

A. Through the entries, yes.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: Could you display, please, Mr. Lewis, 

HLF Search No. 117? And enlarge the top of the page.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Whose phone number is this? Whose phone 

bill is this?

A. This is for the phone bill or for the phone number 

214-690-6069, AT&T.

Q. And is that a part of the records of the Holy Land 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

81

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Foundation?

A. Yes, sir. 

THE WITNESS: Can you scroll to the bottom, Jim? 

Yes, I can see the HLF; there is a bates label down there.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. That means it came from the 

search of the Dallas office of the Holy Land Foundation?

A. That is right, sir.

Q. Is there -- The top portion, what is the date for this 

particular bill?

A. The bill date is April 1st, 1995.

Q. And are there calls there to Yemen or a call to Yemen?

A. Yes. Call No. 6 in the upper section there on February 

19th is again to Hamas leader Mohammed Siam's home telephone 

number.

MR. JACKS: Would you go down to the next segment of 

calls? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you see a call to Yemen on that 

particular page?

A. Yes, I see one on February 25th. That would be No. 21, 

and that again is to Mohammed Siam's home phone number.

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page, please, 

Mr. Lewis, and enlarge the second page of the phonebook there, 

please? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Are there calls reflected there to Yemen?

A. Yes. Call No. 87 is once again to the home phone number 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

82

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
of Mohammed Siam.

Q. And again, the time period when these calls were made, 

according to the exhibit?

A. This call occurred on March 11th, 1995.

Q. Okay. So this exhibit is for an AT&T account. Is that 

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the earlier one for Coastal Telephone, which was also 

during the 1995 period during the same time period. Is that 

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So does that indicate that Holy Land Foundation had more 

than one telephone company service?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you find evidence reflecting that fact that they used 

more than one phone carrier?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you find any evidence indicating that the Holy Land 

Foundation or anyone, any Defendant in this case, had made 

telephone contact to Abdel Aziz Rantisi?

A. Yes, I did, sir.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I show that New Jersey Bell 

Exhibit has been admitted, Government's Exhibit New Jersey 

Bell Exhibit has been admitted. I just want to confirm that. 

THE COURT: Okay. I am having trouble finding it. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

83

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Any objection to New Jersey Bell? 

MR. DRATEL: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Oh, it is in.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, did you examine telephone 

records identified as Government Exhibit New Jersey Bell?

A. I did, sir.

Q. And whose telephone records were those?

A. Those pertain to the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain. 

MR. JACKS: Would you please display page 49? 

MR. DRATEL: May we get a time frame for these 

records? 

MR. JACKS: They will be reflected on the record. 

THE COURT: All right. 

MR. JACKS: And if you would, Jim, enlarge the 

lower -- First of all, enlarge the upper right part.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, can you -- Do you see a 

date there indicating the date for this particular telephone 

bill in the middle of the page there?

A. That one says August 1st, 1993. 

MR. JACKS: If you could zoom out, and if you would 

go to the lower left portion of the page, Mr. Lewis, and all 

the way to the bottom.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Did you look at the calls that are 

reflected there to Israel, Agent Miranda?

A. Yes, I looked at the calls.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

84

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. What number calls are you talking about?

A. There is calls No. 6 and 7 which correspond to July 5th, 

and then there is a call, or I should say calls, on No. 1, 2, 

3, and 4 at the very bottom which are all on July 6th.

Q. What is the last four digits of the numbers called on the 

calls 1, 2, 3, and 4?

A. 3313.

Q. And the calls on No. 6 and 7 above that, just the last 

four digits? 

A. 2141.

Q. Okay. And did you find other exhibits or evidence 

identifying who that phone number can be attributed to?

A. Yes, I did, sir.

Q. And was that reflected in Marzook's address book or 

phonebook?

A. It is reflected in Ashqar No. 3, Exhibit No. Ashqar 3, 

sir. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, can you pull that up, split 

screen if possible? And go to the last page of Ashqar No. 3. 

And if you would kind of highlight the middle of the page 

there, if you don't mind. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you see an entry there that correlates 

to Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Agent Miranda?

A. Yes, it is pretty much in the middle of the page on the 

right hand side.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

85

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Can you enlarge that, please, Mr. Lewis? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is that the evidence that you used to 

correlate those calls to Abdel Aziz Rantisi's residence?

A. Yes. You will see to the right to the exhibit on the 

right hand -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection to mischaracterizing it as a 

residence when it doesn't say that.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. Is that the evidence that you 

looked at to correlate that this was a call to Abdel Aziz 

Rantisi's number?

A. Yes. There are six calls to Abdel Aziz Rantisi's 

numbers. If you look at the exhibit on the right hand side of 

the screen, there is a fax number, 853313 that is going to 

correspond to all your four phone calls on July 6th, and then 

in parentheses you will see phone calls -- the phone calls on 

July 5th are to 852141, and that is going to correspond to the 

number in the parentheses in the exhibit on the right hand 

side of the screen.

Q. All right. So perhaps these calls to the 3313 were 

faxes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you come across any evidence in the course of your 

work on this investigation, Agent Miranda, showing contact 

between any of the Defendants and Khalid Mishal, the current 

head of Hamas?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

86

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was that a phone record or an intercepted call?

A. Intercepted phone call.

Q. And the -- Was it one in particular intercepted call?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And over what telephone line was that call intercepted?

A. It was to the home telephone number of the Defendant 

Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And at that time where was he living?

A. I believe that was New Jersey at the time.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we would move the admission 

of El-Mezain Wiretap No. 14. 

MR. DRATEL: Just the previous objections, Your 

Honor.

THE COURT: All right. And those are overruled, and 

that El-Mezain Wiretap No. 14 is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Just for orientation purposes, the call 

that we are about to hear, Mr. Miranda, about how long was it?

A. It was very short; maybe a minute.

Q. All right. And was it an incoming call to El-Mezain's 

telephone number?

A. Yes, it was. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, are you able to play it?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) No. 14-A also, Your Honor. I forgot to 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

87

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
move the audio file also. 

THE COURT: The same objections? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And that exhibit is also admitted. 

MR. JACKS: And request permission to play -- 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you remember -- Agent Miranda, do you 

have a copy of the transcript of that call?

A. Actually I don't, sir.

Q. All right. Let me get that for you. 

MR. JACKS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) I just ask you, Agent Miranda, what do 

the records reflect in terms of when that call came in?

A. 10/4/1994.

Q. And what time?

A. 9:12.

Q. Morning?

A. It is going to be a.m., yes, sir.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you please play that, 

please? 

(Whereupon, El-Mezain Wiretap No. 14 was played in open 

court.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, this call was in early 

October of 1994. In connection with the designation of Hamas, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

88

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
how much time difference is there?

A. Less than six months.

Q. All right. Hamas was designated in January of '95?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I am going to object for 

reasons we already discussed to this line.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And who in this case uses the name Abu 

Walid?

A. That is the current Hamas Political Bureau leader Khalid 

Mishal.

Q. And was he a leader in Hamas even as early as 1994?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. And with regard to the contents of that message, what was 

he asking the Defendant El-Mezain to do?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. It speaks for 

itself.

THE COURT: Overruled. He may ask and answer that.

THE WITNESS: He was asking Defendant Mohammad 

El-Mezain to come to Turkey for a meeting.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And the number that he gave as a 

call-back number, is that number -- Has that been evidenced 

and reflected in other exhibits that you have testified about?

A. Yes, several times.

Q. As being the number for whom?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

89

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. For Abu Walid, Khalid Mishal.

Q. And that is this man here, the top left of the 

Demonstrative No. 17. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you examine evidence, phone records, intercepted 

calls, to see if there was any contact between the Holy Land 

Foundation or any of the Defendants and the individual who has 

been identified or referenced as Jamal Abu Baker?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And who is -- Is it Jamil or Jamal?

A. Jamal.

Q. Who is Jamal Abu Baker?

A. Jamal Abu Baker is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker's 

brother. He is also known as Jamal Issa. He is currently 

head of Hamas in Yemen and former head of Hamas in the Sudan.

Q. And is there any evidence indicating telephonic contact 

between any Defendant and Jamal Abu Baker?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was that in the form of phone records or intercepted 

phone conversations?

A. Intercepted phone conversations; intercepted 

conversations.

Q. Which Defendant was having conversations with him?

A. Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. And are you familiar, then, with what is marked for 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

90

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
identification purposes as Baker Wiretap No. 25, 26, and 27?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And are those intercepted conversations between the 

Defendant Shukri Abu Baker and his brother Jamal Abu Baker?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, we move the admission of Baker 

Wiretap No. 25, 26, and 27.

THE COURT: And you are also moving for the tapes? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: 25-A, 26-A, 27-A? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: The objections we stated previously, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Those have been overruled, and those 

exhibits are admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Did you, Agent Miranda, participate in 

preparing a demonstrative exhibit to kind of summarize or 

group together the evidence that you have talked about 

regarding these telephone contacts between the Defendants, the 

Holy Land Foundation, Occupied Land Fund, and these Hamas 

leaders?

A. Yes, sir. 

MS. HOLLANDER: What number is this? 

MR. JACKS: It will be Demonstrative No. 16.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

91

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Let me show you what has been marked for 

identification purposes, Agent Miranda, as Government's 

Exhibit Demonstrative No. 16. Is this the chart that you 

assisted in preparing that is reflective of the testimony you 

have given and your examination of these exhibits in evidence?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we move the admission of 

Government's Exhibit Demonstrative No. 16. 

MS. DUNCAN: May we please have a second, Your 

Honor?

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I have a specific 

objection to this Demonstrative No. 16. In New Jersey it says 

New Jersey HLF and has three different phone calls. That is 

misleading. It didn't come from New Jersey HLF. It came from 

New Jersey, but it was Mohammad El-Mezain who made the calls, 

and just to say New Jersey HLF is misleading, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. DRATEL: I think, if we can just approach for a 

second?

THE COURT: Okay. Come on up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. DRATEL: If it is not on the list of exhibits we 

have been given for this witness, I have not looked at it 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

92

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
whether it is accurate. I may have an objection.

THE COURT: Is this something that is new that you 

have given -- 

MR. JACKS: No, it is -- 

MR. DRATEL: The exhibit we have, but it was not on 

the list for Agent Miranda so I did not review it for today 

for purposes of determining whether I have an objection to it 

or not.

MS. DUNCAN: We didn't object to it in our written 

pleadings because we were never given notice of it. 

MR. DRATEL: It wasn't listed.

MS. DUNCAN: I think it is the second exhibit that 

wasn't. The first was short so we could make a decision 

quickly.

MR. DRATEL: I can look at it now, but I just 

haven't had a chance. And the other thing was on the other 

issue with respect to the other objection with respect to 

asking about Hamas designation in January of '95, you 

understood that.

THE COURT: I did. 

MR. DRATEL: I think it is outrageous to do that and 

try to obscure the issue as to the --

THE COURT: I think the jury understands the two 

different designations, and you can point out on cross, as 

everybody has been, so I don't think it is a question.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

93

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Your Honor, that evidence is still 

admissible.

THE COURT: And that is why I am overruling that. 

And you can point that out to the jury, but I think it is 

relevant and admissible.

MS. HOLLANDER: There have been several exhibits 

that weren't on the list. The ones we haven't looked at that 

we could look at quickly we haven't complained about.

THE COURT: As long as these were on the list -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: This is one we may have some 

objections to.

THE COURT: That was given to you a long time ago. 

If you were going to have objections -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: We were told, my understanding was, 

to raise the objections according to what was coming in that 

day, and not to just -- I mean, otherwise --

THE COURT: We didn't go that route until after the 

trial had started, so I assume you all had looked at these 

exhibits before then.

MS. DUNCAN: That is not true necessarily of the 

demonstratives. We got the Government exhibits sort of over 

time.

THE COURT: But that is on the exhibit list that I 

have a while back.

MS. DUNCAN: I understand, Your Honor, but the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

94

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
problem was we got the exhibit list without the exhibits, so 

it would just say Demonstrative No. 16, and we would get them 

later.

THE COURT: I gotcha. 

MR. JACKS: It is not a very complicated exhibit.

THE COURT: I know, but there is enough entries on 

there that they need to look at it. I mean, I think they need 

to look at it. Can you move on to something else and come 

back and give them a chance -- 

MR. JACKS: Yeah, I can. I mean, it is disjointed, 

but that is --

THE COURT: I will let you use it if you want to 

point to certain things, and we can correct it if in fact 

there are certain corrections. He has pointed to a specific 

-- I am assuming you have some evidence that ties into this.

MR. JACKS: What he has already testified about.

THE COURT: Are you going to use the chart to 

question him anymore? 

MR. JACKS: Briefly.

MS. HOLLANDER: There is all kinds of things on 

there.

MR. WESTFALL: I stated mine already, but if they 

are going to be allowed to get into it, we would ask once 

again for a limiting instruction on the demonstratives, just a 

general, you know, because there has been a couple of other 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

95

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
instances where things on these demonstratives have been a 

little shaky.

THE COURT: And you can inquire -- If there is a 

disagreement as to exactly what is on there, you can inquire 

to that on cross. I am not going to give them another 

instruction. I have told them once. They have got so much 

evidence. You can just inquire into that on cross if there is 

a disagreement. 

MS. HOLLANDER: One of the problems, Your Honor, is 

these jurors were advised by the Government to take notes, and 

they are taking notes of all these demonstratives. So unless 

they are advised contemporaneously, these are demonstratives 

they will have notes on.

THE COURT: That is fine. I have told them that the 

notes are not evidence, so I don't think that is a problem. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I just for the record would ask for 

a contemporaneous instruction.

THE COURT: And that has been given, so I am not 

going to give it every time. 

MR. DRATEL: The demonstrative, my objection is that 

they have referred to Hamas officials, they put names there. 

In fact, there are telephone numbers, except for maybe that 

voice mail message where there is a person giving a name. But 

it is a phone number. It is phone numbers, not the people.

THE COURT: But they have it in some of the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

96

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
documents. I haven't looked at it all, but in some of them 

they have Marzook Phonebook or in the Ashqar search they have 

got names there so -- 

MR. DRATEL: But to say -- I just think it 

doesn't --

THE COURT: The jury understands from these toll 

records that we don't know who is on there. They have been 

hearing that. They understand that. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, just an unrelated point but 

I wanted to make it while we were up here. We have been 

saying for some of our objections "our previous objections" or 

"based on our written objections." In some instances with 

respect to exhibits we did not specifically identify in our 

written objections, because the Government hadn't given us 

notice of them yet, I am guessing Your Honor understands that 

when we say that we typically mean hearsay, Rule 403.

THE COURT: Right. What you previously stated to 

those types of exhibits.

MR. CLINE: Exactly.

THE COURT: That is the way I am understanding it.

MR. CLINE: I thought you did. I just want to make 

the record clear. 

THE COURT: All right. Do you know where we are? 

MR. JACKS: Did he finish his objection?

THE COURT: I am overruling Mr. Westfall's objection 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

97

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
to that specific one, but they want time to look at the 

exhibits and I am going to give them the time in case there 

are some issues they want to raise. 

MS. DUNCAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, I am going to move away 

from your testimony regarding these phone records and calls 

and to whom they were made. And you will be glad to know I am 

moving back to the overseas speakers. There was one item that 

I wanted to finish up with regard to that particular subject 

matter.

Directing your attention to HLF Search No. 87, the 

overseas speakers list, who is No. 7? And I am not going to 

make you take an eye test. Who is No. 7 on the list?

A. Abdulmunim Abu Zant.

Q. And did you find any evidence in your examination of the 

evidence in this case that pertained to this Abu Zant person?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And are you familiar with an audiotape that was found 

during the search of the Holy Land Foundation in Dallas, their 

office materials?

A. Yes, sir, I am.

Q. And again I apologize. I am not sure this has been 

admitted, but this has been identified for identification 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

98

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
purposes as Holy Land Foundation Search No. 27. Do you recall 

that?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would move the admission of 

Holy Land Foundation Search No. 27 as modified per the Court's 

ruling. And if it will be agreeable with the Court and the 

parties, rather than playing that audiotape and having the 

transcript, I am just going to direct Agent Miranda to certain 

portions of the transcript and ask him to read that. And I 

will also ask him some questions about the context of that 

tape, just to put it in perspective.

THE COURT: All right. And that is fine. You may 

do that. I guess for the record -- I am not sure I have 

previously admitted HLF Search No. 27, and my records indicate 

no objection to those except as we have discussed, so that is 

admitted as modified. 

MR. JACKS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, I am going to show you a 

document, and I will just ask you, is this a transcript, an 

English transcript, translation, of this audiotape of this 

individual Sheikh Abdulmunim Abu Zant?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And is there a portion of the conversation in which an 

unidentified individual identifies the date that the statement 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

99

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
is being made?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. Let me ask you just to read, first of all, 

the bracketed portion there where the unidentified male is 

speaking, and in essence introducing Mr. Abu Zant. 

MS. MORENO: What page are you reading from, please? 

MR. JACKS: It would be page 2 of the transcript. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. It reads, "God's peace, 

mercy and blessings. This is the sermon of his Eminence 

Sheikh Abdul Mun'im Abu-Zant dated 16 1st Jarnadi, 1415 H, 

corresponding to October 21st, 1994 A.D."

Q. All right. And you have read this transcript, I take it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. And in October, October 21st, 1994, what was 

going on in the area of Israel and Jordan?

A. There was a peace treaty being worked out.

Q. Let me ask you because I am standing here, keep your 

voice up so that everybody can hear. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was going on at that time in October of 1994?

A. There was a peace treaty being worked out between Jordan 

and Israel.

Q. And was that treaty eventually signed?

A. Yes.

Q. And in your review of this speech by this individual Abu 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

100

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Zant, was he addressing the pending signing of that treaty?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. And was he in favor of it or critical of it?

A. He was very critical of it.

Q. All right. Let me direct your attention -- Let's see. 

You have it marked there. Just the entry that there is a 

sentence that begins, "Oh Lord, bring failure." Would you 

just read that sentence, please. 

A. Sure. It reads "Our Lord, bring failure to the 

reconciliation plot with the Jews. Our Lord, bring failure to 

the reconciliation plot with the Jews."

Q. Reconciliation plot with the Jews, would that be 

consistent with the signing of a treaty between Jordan and 

Israel?

A. Yes, sir, I think it is.

Q. And let me ask you to read the portion at the bottom of 

the page that begins, "O Lord, show us." Just read that 

portion there. There is about a sentence there. 

A. Right. "O Lord, show us the miracles of your strength 

and the reconciliation with the Jews and the marvels of your 

might next Wednesday and bring it down a storm over the Jews."

Q. All right. And let me ask you, if you would, to turn to 

page 8, I believe, and do you see the spot that begins, "O 

rulers of my country"?

A. Yes, I have that.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

101

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Would you read that part of Abu Zant's speech and it is 

about a paragraph or so?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just to the bottom of the page. 

A. "O rulers of my country, Hamas the beloved of the 

Merciful, the beloved of Mohamed God's blessings peace be upon 

him and his family. Hamas, Hamas is the one who raised up the 

heads of Muslims, and every Muslim who adheres to Islam in 

this country and in the Muslim world is Hamas. He is Hamas. 

He is Hamas, why? Because the hearts were attached to the 

only God, the conqueror, and is reiterating every morning and 

evening. 'We are the ones who pledge allegiance to Mohamed. 

We will stay on the path of jihad forever.' O rulers of my 

country, if you are being pressured by America the oppressor, 

the symbol of arrogance, but Hamas, the beloved of the 

Merciful, is pressuring the Jews by the strength of God. 

Firstly, the first lesson: The withdrawal of the alleged 

Israel from Gaza and Jericho, a bilateral withdrawal, came 

after two operations, the operation of Al-Afula at the hands 

of Hamas and Mohamedan hero, Raed Zakarnah, and Al-Khedira 

operation at the hands of the Godly Mohamadan hero, Ammar 

Amarnah, the first is from Qabatia and is second is from 

Ya'bad. These two operations are surrounding Tel Aviv until 

the last operation came before yesterday in the heart of Tel 

Aviv."

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

102

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. I think you skipped a word there?

A. I am sorry. Which one? 

Q. Just start, resume right there. Before you resume 

reading, the term operations, have you seen that term used by 

Hamas and then looking at the evidence in this case?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. What does the term operation refer to in your examination 

of the evidence?

A. Terrorist attack.

Q. All right. If you would resume reading at "these."

A. "These two operations are surrounding Tel Aviv until the 

last operation came day before yesterday in the heart of Tel 

Aviv. I was hoping for my beloved brothers to see the 

American and the European television how they exhibited the 

blood and the bodies of the Jews as they scattered. I was 

hoping while they see the weeping males and females, God has 

dedicated the television devices in America and in Europe to 

say every five minutes no less than 500 times Hamas, Hamas the 

Islamic Resistance Movement."

Q. And if you would, turn to page 11 of the transcript and 

beginning with, "O God, grant victory." Just read that one 

sentence. 

A. "O God, grant victory to your servants and beloved Hamas 

and those who stand by Hamas, sympathize with Hamas, and who 

supported Hamas."

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

103

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Thank you. That is all I need you to read. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this individual is No. 7 on the overseas speakers 

list?

A. Yes, he is, sir.

Q. One last thing in this area of speakers, Agent Miranda. 

You have testified about Mahmoud Zahar shown in the middle row 

far right. 

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Extensively in this case?

A. Yes, I have, sir.

Q. And he is No. 41 on the speakers list. Is that correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Did you find anything in your examination of the evidence 

indicating the announcements of any kind of speech by Mahmoud 

Zahar?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Let me direct your attention to what has been admitted as 

El-Mezain Wiretap No. 1. And that would be the series of 

faxes intercepted from the fax machine at Mohammad El-Mezain's 

house. 

MR. JACKS: And Mr. Lewis, if you could display page 

180 of that exhibit, please.

May I approach the witness, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

104

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, I am going to show you a 

copy of three pages from the exhibit El-Mezain Wiretap No. 1, 

pages 180, 181, and 182, which just appeared on the screen. 

Is that one of the documents or one of the items of evidence 

that you looked at in connection with your analysis of 

speakers and who is on the speakers list and who may have been 

advertised or promoted?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: And the first page of the exhibit 

there -- If you would, Jim, just go through the whole exhibit, 

please. And I think there is one more page. So there is two 

pages in Arabic and then one page -- 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And this particular last page bears the 

name of what organization at the top. 

A. The IAP, Islamic Association for Palestine.

Q. And obviously that page 3 is in Arabic. 

MR. JACKS: If you would go back to page 2. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And page 1, the first page of the exhibit 

shown on the screen, that was as it was found. Is that 

correct?

A. Right, sir.

Q. It was in English?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And what does it discuss or relate to?

A. It relates to a telephone conference call for September 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

105

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
16th, 1994.

Q. And what is the topic to be?

A. The peace process and the Palestine National Authority.

Q. Now, the peace process, what have we heard about what 

event happened that would coincide with this reference to the 

peace process?

A. This is the Oslo Accords.

Q. And this particular conference call is advertised to be 

occurring on September 16th, 1994. So in relation to the Oslo 

Accords, what is the time difference as far as when the Oslo 

Accords were announced?

A. Pretty contemporaneous.

Q. The Oslo Accords were in '93. Correct?

A. Oh, I am sorry. Yes. A year off, same month roughly.

Q. And it talks about the Palestine National Authority. 

What was the Palestine National Authority as a result of the 

Oslo Accords?

A. Well, it was -- Are you asking group-wise? 

Q. No. What was it supposed to be?

A. It was supposed to be the governing body.

Q. And who is the speaker that they are promoting?

A. That is the Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar.

Q. Okay. Agent Miranda, I want to change focus again and 

ask you whether or not when you worked on this investigation, 

did you look at whether or not there were any family 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

106

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
relationships between the Defendants and members of Hamas?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And were there any that you found?

A. Yes, there are several.

Q. Let me ask you just to go through the Defendants and the 

evidence that you found with regard to. I believe Agent Burns 

testified about an interview of the Defendant Mufid 

Abdulqader. Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. And were you one of the agents that sat in on that 

interview?

A. I was.

Q. And I believe the testimony was that that took place in 

his lawyer's office, although he was not represented by Ms. 

Cadeddu at that time.

A. That is correct.

Q. During the course of that interview, did you ever have 

the occasion, you or the other agents that were participating 

in this interview, did you have the opportunity to question or 

ask Mufid Abdulqader about his family and to describe his 

family and list his family and his siblings?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. And did he start to do that?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And did he name indicate whether he had brothers?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

107

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes.

Q. Did he indicate whether he had sisters?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he name -- In the course of doing that, did he name 

Khalid Mishal as his brother?

A. Eventually.

Q. Was that -- Did he volunteer that or did -- Was he -- Did 

you have to specifically ask him about that?

A. No, we asked about his family. He went through quite a 

few family members, and then he stopped as if he was done and 

we said, "What about Khalid Mishal?" And at that point he 

became uncomfortable, but eventually said yes.

Q. All right. And what did he say about how he was related 

to Khalid Mishal?

A. It was his half brother.

Q. And what is your understanding in terms of do they share 

the same father?

A. The same father. That is right.

Q. Different mothers?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you find out in that interview from Mufid Abdulqader 

if there were other family ties that he had or his family had 

with other individuals that have been testified about in this 

case?

A. Yes.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

108

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. And let me ask you specifically did Mohammed Siam's name, 

this individual in the middle row far left that we have heard 

about, did his name come up?

A. Yes.

Q. And what relation, if any, was shared between Mufid 

Abdulqader's family and Mohammed Siam's family?

A. The Mishals have a sister who is married to one of the 

sons of Mohammed Siam.

Q. And do you recall the name of the sister, the first name?

A. I believe it is Mufida.

Q. And I am not going to hold you to this, but M-U-F-I-D-A?

A. Yes, that is how I would spell it.

Q. You said that she is Mufid Abdulqader's sister. Is that 

right?

A. Yes.

Q. And who is she married to? Do you know his name?

A. It is Mohammed or Mahmoud, one of the two. I forget.

Q. All right. And that is a son of Mohammed Siam?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did he shed any light on whether or not Mohammed Siam 

had any other family in the Dallas area?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And what did Mufid Abdulqader say about that?

A. That Mohammed Siam has a daughter named Raida, R-A-I-D-A, 

or D-I-A maybe.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

109

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. All right. And that she lives here in the Dallas area, 

or did at the time?

A. She did at the time, or maybe a little bit earlier than 

the interview.

Q. And Mohammed Siam, this man's daughter, what is her 

family arrangement or situation? Is she married, according to 

Mr. Abdulqader?

A. Yes. She is married to Islam Siam.

Q. And the same last name, but the same name as -- Not a 

part of that family, or do you know?

A. It could be part of the same family. Same last name, 

though, yes.

Q. And Islam Siam, did he have any connection to any 

organization or Defendants in this case?

A. Yes. Islam Siam worked for a period of time at the Holy 

Land Foundation, and also for the InfoCom predecessor company 

known as ICC.

Q. All right. Did Mufid Abdulqader ever indicate whether he 

had had any meeting in Dallas with Mohammed Siam, or ever met 

him in Dallas?

A. Yes. I believe he talked about a meeting.

Q. And what was going on or what did he say about the time 

when he met Mohammed Siam in Dallas?

A. I think he said that -- It has been a while since I have 

reviewed the interview, but I think he said that Mohammed Siam 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

110

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
came to visit Raida.

Q. His daughter?

A. Right.

Q. And did Mufid Abdulqader meet with him or see him on that 

event?

A. Yes, my understanding he did.

Q. All right. Did you -- After talking about his 

relationship with his half brother, did you have any questions 

or ask him about any time that he might have seen his half 

brother in the United States?

A. Yes, we talked about that.

Q. And did you ask him about a specific time or event?

A. Yes. I asked about a conference that took place in 

Oklahoma City in 1992 in which Khalid Mishal was one of the 

keynote speakers at an event that included HLF fundraising.

Q. All right. And what type of a conference, what 

organization was the sponsor or host of that conference?

A. I believe it was a MAYA conference.

Q. And I know we have heard reference to MAYA, but what does 

that acronym stand for, as you recall?

A. Muslim Arab Youth Association.

Q. All right. And did you ask Mufid Abdulqader about that 

specific MAYA conference in 1992 in Oklahoma City?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you ask him whether he saw his brother on that 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

111

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
occasion?

A. Yes. He said actually his brother stayed with him at his 

house in Oklahoma City.

Q. So he was living in Oklahoma City at that time? Mufid 

Abdulqader was living in Oklahoma City at that time?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you ask him about the conference and whether or not 

he attended and whether or not his brother attended?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did he say about that?

A. As I recall, they both attended, but he didn't know what 

Khalid Mishal was doing there.

Q. Did not know what Khalid Mishal was doing where?

A. At the conference.

Q. All right. When you were doing this interview, did you 

have evidence at the time that Khalid Mishal was one of the 

main speakers at that conference?

A. Yes. I was aware and had reviewed a video of the MAYA 

conference showing Khalid Mishal as one of the keynote 

speakers, and Mufid Abdulqader was there present with the band 

as -- In addition to several of the HLF Defendants, 

specifically Shukri Baker and Mohammad El-Mezain come to mind, 

raising funds on behalf of the HLF.

Q. I want to turn to the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, may we approach?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

112

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
THE COURT: Come on up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. DRATEL: There is a demonstrative that wasn't on 

the list for Agent Miranda, but I think this is where we are 

going because I sort of recognize it. But there is a 

reference to a cousin of Mr. El-Mezain's. It is from the 302. 

It is not his 302. He wasn't there. So I don't know if he is 

going to try to get it in through him, but it is total 

hearsay. So there is no other information he would have on 

this person. 

MR. JACKS: Well, I think it is in evidence through 

the testimony of Agent Burns.

MR. DRATEL: No, she didn't testify at all about his 

302.

MR. JACKS: I would have to go back and check. But 

there is a reference in his deposition, he said that he is a 

cousin of Marzook.

MR. DRATEL: It is Marzook. I am talking about 

Hamdan.

MR. JACKS: If you would let me get to where I am 

going. 

MR. DRATEL: It is another person Hamdan. There is 

another cousin they are trying to put in through this 

demonstrative. There is no evidence about this person. It is 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

113

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
all hearsay. 

MR. JACKS: We can tie it up, Your Honor, through 

Agent Burns. Mohammad El-Mezain admitted in the interview 

with Agent Burns that he was related to this Ahmed Hamdan I 

believe is his first name, and he was one of the deportees in 

1992. I thought that Agent Burns had testified about that.

THE COURT: I don't remember. She may have. I just 

don't remember. 

MR. DRATEL: I remember by the absence. 

MR. JACKS: I can check on that. But I won't go 

into that right now. I don't have any intention to go into 

this chart until after lunch. 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, can I make a request? We 

have several exhibits now that we haven't been given notice 

that were going to come up. If we can get a complete list. I 

know we haven't looked at Demonstrative No. 6 on behalf of Mr. 

Abu Baker.

THE COURT: If you will give that over the lunch 

hour.

MR. DRATEL: I would just object to anything subject 

to connection for a witness who is already testified. She is 

supposed to come back for a specific purpose, so I would just 

object to that.

THE COURT: I will let you connect it up if you need 

to connect it up, but we will see what you have there.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

114

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. DRATEL: I may have 106 issues on that as well 

as the 302 on cross, but I will do that on cross with the 

agent.

You know, it puts me in an awkward spot. I would like to 

deal with it now, and I don't want to wait two weeks for Agent 

Burns. I want to deal with it now. So if he is going to put 

in something based on something that is hearsay for him 

because of a 302 he read, if it is in the 302, I will just get 

all the rest of it. It is probably a one question and answer. 

MR. JACKS: I am not sure what he wants to do.

MR. DRATEL: It depends on what he does on direct. 

If I see what happens on direct, then I will be able to -- 

MR. JACKS: If the Court is going to allow me to 

have Agent Miranda make reference to the fact that Mr. 

El-Mezain admitted in his interview to Agent Burns that he was 

related to this Hamdan individual, and then have Agent Burns 

confirm that when she comes back, if that is --

THE COURT: Then he wants to get into his 106 on the 

302 right now with him. And I guess we don't know what that 

is going to be, so we have to deal with that then. But I 

think that would be appropriate. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, turning to the Defendant 

Mohammad El-Mezain, you reviewed the deposition that he gave 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

115

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
that is in evidence and that was taken in connection with a 

lawsuit filed against the Holy Land Foundation in Chicago, I 

believe. Correct?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And in that interview, just to focus your answer, did he 

acknowledge that he is related to Mousa Abu Marzook?

A. He did.

Q. And did he acknowledge that they were cousins?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you also aware that in his interview he was 

interviewed by Agent Burns? Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Were you a participant in the interview?

A. I think I was a participant in one of the interviews.

Q. Do you recall, were you -- Did he make a statement to you 

regarding his relationship to anyone that was a member of 

Hamas during that interview?

A. I would have to review the 302. I believe the answer is 

yes, but I would have to look at the particular 302 to make 

certain.

Q. All right. Regardless, did he admit to either yourself 

or Agent Burns during an interview that he was related to an 

individual named Ahmed Hamdan?

A. Yes.

Q. And did he indicate what -- In terms of Ahmed Hamdan if 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

116

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
he had ever been associated with Hamas?

A. Yes. I recall that he said he was associated with Hamas, 

that Hamdan was.

Q. And how did he describe him as far as anything that had 

happened to Ahmed Hamdan to show his association?

A. He was one of, as I recall, one of the deportees, Hamas 

deportees deported to southern Lebanon, Marj az-Zuhour, in 

late 1992 approximately.

Q. The name Marj al-Zuhour, is that an area in southern 

Lebanon?

A. Yes, it is an area in southern Lebanon.

Q. Just across the border from northern Israel?

A. Yes.

Q. You said this deportation of Hamas individuals happened 

in late 1992?

A. Yes.

Q. With regard to the Defendant Ghassan Elashi, I believe 

you already testified as to his family relationship in this 

case. What relationship does he have, for example, with Mousa 

Abu Marzook?

A. Ghassan Elashi is first cousins with Nadia Elashi, and 

Nadia Elashi is the wife of Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. With regard to the individual Akram Mishal that was one 

of the Holy Land Foundation officers or employees, is he 

related to anyone?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

117

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes. Akram Mishal is a cousin of both Mufid Abdulqader 

and Khalid Mishal.

THE COURT: Are you at a good stopping point? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Let's take the lunch break. Be back at 

1:45. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Be back at 1:45. We will be in recess.

(Lunch recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, before lunch I was asking 

you about family or familial relationships between the 

Defendants and individuals identified as members of Hamas. 

You had indicated or you discussed Mohammad El-Mezain's 

interview, and you believe that you had sat in on one of the 

interviews in which he was interviewed by agents of the FBI. 

Did you have an opportunity to check your recollection on 

that?

A. Yeah. There was two interviews. I thought I was at one. 

I was mistaken. I was not at one.

Q. Was there another interview that you did of someone else 

in this case in San Diego around that same time?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. The interviews that were done by the FBI of 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

118

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Mohammad El-Mezain, were those done in San Diego, California?

A. Yes.

Q. You testified about the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker and 

his brother Jamal Abu Baker who has been identified as a Hamas 

representative in the Sudan and now Yemen. Is that correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. And you said that there were some intercepted 

conversations that you looked at that shed light on that 

aspect of your investigation. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, at this time the Government 

would request permission to play Baker Wiretap No. 25 and 

certain excerpts from that exhibit. 

THE COURT: Yes, sir. You may do so. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, may I just inquire? The 

whole call is in evidence. Is that correct? 

THE COURT: Yes, No. 25 is in evidence. 

MR. JACKS: I believe it is excerpts, Your Honor, 

that we are offering.

THE COURT: She is asking whether the whole call was 

in evidence. Is that what you were asking, Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes. The whole call was moved into 

evidence. 

MR. JACKS: Actually I believe it is just the 

excerpts we have chosen. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

119

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MS. HOLLANDER: The whole call is in. 

MR. JACKS: All right. We are just playing 

segments, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right.

(Whereupon, excerpts of Baker Wiretap No. 25 were 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, the speakers in this 

particular telephone call, how are they identified in the 

transcript?

A. SH is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker and JA is the Hamas 

leader Jamal Abu Baker.

Q. The brother of Shukri Abu Baker?

A. Right.

Q. All right. Agent Miranda, in the conversation there does 

Shukri Abu Baker ask his brother, "What is the last name you 

used?"

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever seen Jamal Abu Baker use another name?

A. Yes.

Q. What other name?

A. Jamal Issa, I-S-S-A.

Q. Agent Miranda, what were the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker 

and his brother talking about, generally?

A. Shukri's brother wanted to run a program over his 

computer so he could speak over the computer, make long 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

120

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
distance phone calls.

Q. Are you familiar with software called VOIP or voice over 

internet protocol?

A. I have heard of it, yes.

Q. Do you know what that program is supposed to allow you to 

do?

A. Use your computer to make long distance phone calls.

Q. And with regard to the payment, what was the discussion 

about the payment that you observed?

A. Jamal Abu Baker was asking his brother Shukri the 

Defendant to put some money into his, Jamal's, account so he 

could use this program.

Q. And just to clarify something, during this call there was 

reference to Sudan, and you indicated that this was one of the 

calls that showed you that there were calls between the 

Defendant Abu Baker and his brother in Sudan. Where is Sudan, 

just for the benefit of the jury?

A. It is a country south of Egypt in Africa.

Q. And on the eastern side of Africa?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Were there other conversations in which Shukri Abu 

Baker and his brother Jamal Abu Baker were intercepted?

A. Yes.

Q. Agent Miranda, is there an echo that you can hear in this 

call? Sometimes the speaker's voice is repeated? You are 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

121

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
picking that up?

A. Yes.

Q. There was a reference, I believe it has already passed 

off the screen, to the locusts or locust. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And I believe Mr. Shafik translated locust -- on his 

direct examination as to what the Arabic word is that 

translates to locust. Do you recall what that was?

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection. I don't believe there 

was any such -- Was there? Sorry. My mistake.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What is the translation, the word in 

Arabic that translates to locust?

A. Jarada.

Q. Can you spell that as near as you can?

A. J-A-R-A-D-A.

Q. And is there an individual named Jarada who showed up in 

the investigation?

A. Munir Jarada was the Hamas leader in Sudan immediately 

prior to Jamal Issa or Jamal Baker becoming the Hamas leader 

in Sudan.

Q. And when you saw the reference to locust, does that 

coincide with Munir Jarada's last name?

A. Yes. That is precisely what they are talking about here. 

Q. I want to direct your attention now to -- By the way, 

Agent Miranda, I believe the evidence shows that that call was 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

122

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
January 30th of 2000. Is that correct?

A. That sounds correct, sir.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: At this time we request permission to 

play the first segment of Government's Exhibit Baker Wiretap 

No. 26. And I believe the transcript that has been admitted 

shows that it took place on October 13th, 1997. So if we 

could play that first segment, please.

(Whereupon, Segment 1 of Baker Wiretap No. 26 was 

played in open court.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, in that portion of the 

call that was just played, who was Shukri Abu Baker pretending 

to be?

A. A journalist.

Q. All right. Did you see the reference where he asks -- 

Who was asking whom, "Do your children speak Sudanese yet?"

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker is asking his brother 

Jamal Abu Baker if his children speak Sudanese.

Q. "I saw this guy Abu Khalid." Who in this case uses that 

alias name or Abu name?

A. That is the Defendant Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar that is 

on the chart.

Q. The man in the middle row here on the far right on 

Demonstrative No. 17?

A. That is right.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

123

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Okay. And who is speaking behind Shukri's back? 

A. Mahmoud Zahar the Hamas leader.

Q. All right. Now, this call was in I believe the latter 

part of 1999. Excuse me October of 1997, I believe is what 

the exhibit indicates. Did you see the reference where he 

says, "Did you say anything to the son of your homeland?" And 

then Jamal Abu Baker says, "By God, he had called me before, 

ten hours before he got sick." Do you see that on the screen? 

A. I do, sir.

Q. Was there -- Immediately prior to October of 1997, was 

there anything that happened to anyone that these individuals 

would know that would coincide or match up with the reference 

to getting sick?

A. Yes. Coinciding with this phone call there was the 

assassination attempt on the Hamas Political Bureau Chief 

Khalid Mishal on the top of our chart there.

Q. The individual on the left. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And where was this assassination attempt? Where had it 

happened?

A. In Amman, Jordan.

Q. And in -- What method was used to try to kill him?

A. There was a poison of some sort that was injected into 

Khalid Mishal's ear.

Q. And who was held responsible -- Who was responsible for 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

124

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
that attempt?

A. The Israelis.

Q. And the reference to "the son of your homeland," what 

does that indicate or who -- would that be consistent with 

referring to Khalid Mishal?

A. Right.

Q. So Jamal Abu Baker says who had called him about ten 

hours before he got sick?

A. That would be Khalid Mishal had called Jamal Abu Baker.

Q. The reference or the quotes there, "I told him, 'No, man, 

your status is bigger than that.' The world would -- the 

world doesn't measure up to you, man. They will host you and 

give you stuff.'" Who is Jamal Abu Baker apparently referring 

to?

A. Khalid Mishal.

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection; speculation, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. He may testify to his 

understanding.

THE WITNESS: I understand that to be Khalid Mishal. 

Q. The reference there, "This was at night," this is Jamal 

Abu Baker speaking this was at night. "The next morning 

malaria struck." And is that consistent with the events in 

which Khalid Mishal, the attempt was made to poison him?

A. Yes, that is what I understand. 

Q. Do you see where Mr. Abu Baker says, "No. We spoke with 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

125

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
his father and stuff and comforted them." The reference to 

his father, did you uncover evidence or see evidence in which 

Abu Baker, Shukri Abu Baker contacted Khalid Mishal's father?

A. Yes. That was another piece of the evidence that I used 

in determining that they were speaking about Khalid Mishal. 

There was a phone call in which the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker 

called the father of Khalid Mishal in Jordan and they spoke 

about what happened. 

MR. JACKS: Play the next segment, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) This is the same call, Agent Miranda.

(Whereupon, Segment 2 of Baker Wiretap No. 26 was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, is Khartoum the capital of 

Sudan?

A. Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Was there another call between the 

Defendant Shukri Abu Baker and his brother Jamal Abu Baker?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was that call also intercepted?

A. Yes.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we move to play at this time what 

has been admitted as Baker Wiretap No. 27. 

THE COURT: You may do so.

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap No. 27 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

126

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. (BY MR. JACKS) The reference where Shukri Abu Baker 

says, "They are fine. We sent them to Ramzi's," is there a 

Ramzi that you know that is related to Shukri Abu Baker?

A. Yes. Ramzi Abu Baker is the brother of the Defendant 

Shukri Abu Baker and Jamal Abu Baker.

Q. And where does he reside?

A. Here in Texas.

Q. All right. Do you see a reference where it says, "It was 

about a 15-hour drive"? 

A. Right.

Q. Has Ramzi Abu Baker ever lived outside of Texas that was 

covered during this investigation?

A. He previously lived in Denver. 

Q. You see the reference where Jamal Abu Baker is saying, "I 

wanted to consult you regarding your work with Um Haitham." 

The name Haitham has appeared throughout this case. Is that 

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And who does that refer to?

A. It can refer to Haitham Maghawri, an HLF employee.

Q. Do you know what nationality he is?

A. Lebanese.

Q. What is Um, what is that a reference to?

A. Mother of.

Q. So that reference could be interpreted as mother of 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

127

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Haitham?

A. Could be.

Q. All right. And you said he is from what country?

A. Lebanon. 

Q. And do you see the reference where Jamal Abu Baker is 

saying that "You open a regional office and appoint an 

employee even if you have to send him from your end"? What 

business was Shukri Abu Baker in at the time of this call?

A. The HLF.

Q. And did it have other offices or what could be considered 

regional offices during the time of its existence?

A. It had some overseas offices and it also had some 

regional offices in the United States.

Q. As far as overseas offices, where did they have overseas 

offices, that you recall?

A. Gaza and the West Bank.

Q. Do you see the statement by Jamal Abu Baker where he 

says, "And it looks like that there are whispers that they can 

possibly devour"?

A. Right.

Q. And then it is followed, he makes the statement, "So 

don't fool these people," after which Shukri Abu Baker says, 

"No, they, they would destroy our house and we won't work. 

This is being considered, God's willing." 

During this time frame in 1998, was there anything going 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

128

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
on in terms of the situation with Hamas and where its external 

headquarters were located?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was Hamas' headquarters outside of the Palestinian 

territories?

A. It was in Amman, Jordan, capital of Jordan.

Q. And in terms of what ultimately happened with that 

office, was it ever -- Did anything happen to change the 

location of the office?

A. Yes. In 1999 the Jordanians kicked out the Hamas 

Political Bureau, including Khalid Mishal, Ibrahim Ghousheh 

Mohamed Nizal, and there is one individual -- 

Q. Marzook?

A. Thank you. Yes, Mousa Abu Marzook. They were kicked out 

of Jordan.

Q. And eventually where did Hamas' external office relocate 

to?

A. To Damascus, Syria.

Q. Is that where it still is?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see the statement there where Jamal Abu Baker 

says, "They said, 'by God, it is a sound idea,' and they asked 

me to do it quickly, 'so that he can have time.'" Any 

indication from the evidence who he -- the they he is 

referring to?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

129

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I object. This is 

really beyond speculation here.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Based on one of the previous 

sentences, which is partially off the screen at this time, 

Jamal Abu Baker is saying he consulted with people that Shukri 

Abu Baker would know, "our relatives, our cousins, and stuff." 

I take that to mean Hamas.

Q. And you see the statement there where Shukri Abu Baker 

says, "No, God's willing, even in Amman we started the 

procedures."

A. Right.

Q. And Amman is the capital of what country?

A. Jordan. 

Q. Do you see the exchange between Jamal Abu Baker and 

Shukri Abu Baker where he says, "Is my father -- Is my father 

aware?" And Shukri says, "Almost -- You know how your father 

is." And Jamal says, "Yes. He told me, "Why -- why are you 

naming the boy Issa?" And again Issa comes from where? What 

is the relevance of that name?

A. Jamal Abu Baker uses the Hamas name Jamal Issa. 

MS. HOLLANDER: May we approach?

THE COURT: Yes. Come on up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

130

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MS. HOLLANDER: I have the version of Baker Wiretap 

No. 27 that the Government sent us that is on their list and 

it doesn't include this part. 

MR. JACKS: It doesn't include what? 

MS. HOLLANDER: What you played about Issa. Here is 

what is on here and there is nothing about that. And I just 

looked on the latest version of their exhibits and I don't see 

anything on that. 

MR. JACKS: I will have to check, Your Honor. It is 

in the same conversation, and I am not sure why they have an 

excerpt that doesn't have this part of it.

MS. HOLLANDER: I can tell you why. It is because 

this is what the Government gave us. This is one of the 

problems, Your Honor, is they keep changing these internally. 

They change their exhibits, but they gave us a disk just 

before we left town, and then we asked them whether there were 

any changes and there is a long list that says, "These are 

changed. These are changed. These are changed." I can go 

into all of them, but I just looked at it now, the latest 

version, and Ms. Duncan looked at it, the latest version. 

Correct? 

MS. DUNCAN: Uh-huh.

MS. HOLLANDER: And it is not on there. So we have 

to be able to rely on what the Government gives us that says 

what they are going to introduce.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

131

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: Well, Your Honor, I would like to take 

one thing at a time and I would like to check and see, you 

know, where the problem is as far as this particular and see, 

you know, where this transcript -- Because my belief is that 

this transcript has been in this form for some time, and so I 

am not sure why -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: It has changed over time. 

MR. JACKS: I am not sure why the one she has got in 

her hand doesn't have this excerpt or this portion of the 

transcript on it. I don't know that it was ever -- I don't 

know the explanation.

THE COURT: Can you tell how much you are missing so 

far? 

MS. HOLLANDER: This particular part, which is 

particularly important to them, they have not -- Evidently 

they haven't put in, and I can show Mr. Jacks what I took from 

their disk.

THE COURT: We are going to do that later. I am not 

going to take that time to do that in front of the jury if 

that is the only part that is missing.

MS. HOLLANDER: This is a very significant part, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: We still have to deal with it later. I 

am not going to deal with it while the jury is in here.

MR. DRATEL: May I join Ms. Hollander's objection, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

132

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
and just cite the case, I have the site but I will give you 

the cite later, it is a recent Second Circuit case, Mejia, 

M-E-J-I-A, United States v. Mejia, which very carefully talks 

about the limits of testimony that goes from the general to 

the specific and becoming a witness -- or this is essentially 

summing up for the Government and giving a conclusion as an 

expert, a law enforcement witness in particular, and I think 

this is transgressing those bounds.

THE COURT: I don't think he is talking about 

conversations.

MR. DRATEL: Things like it is his Hamas name and 

that is why he took it, he is just expounding on that.

THE COURT: He asked him about that. You may just 

need to lay a predicate for that rather than -- Some of it you 

have, some you haven't. It just comes out. Some you may want 

to lay a predicate.

MR. JACKS: I understand. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you resume? 

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap No. 27 continued to be 

played in open court.)

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I object. This is 

exactly the same problem. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we will conclude with this 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

133

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
exhibit and find out what the problem is. 

THE COURT: All right.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, in the course of -- I want 

to -- 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, before I move away from this 

area, I would ask at this time, the Government would propose 

to admit the demonstrative exhibit, which was the basis of a 

bench conference earlier.

THE COURT: Of the phone calls? 

MR. JACKS: There is that one and then also another 

one which has been made reference to or noticed to the 

Defense, and we would propose -- There is one of them that 

relates to the family relationships, and then --

THE COURT: What is the number? 

MR. JACKS: The one with regard to the phone calls, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: No. 16 is the phone calls. What is the 

number of the one with the family relations? 

MR. JACKS: No. 6, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: And you are offering both of those? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, as demonstrative exhibits. 

THE COURT: Counsel? 

MR. DRATEL: Previously stated objections, Your 

Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. And those demonstrative exhibits 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

134

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
are admitted as demonstratives. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, let me show you what has 

been admitted as Government's Exhibit Demonstrative No. 16. 

MR. JACKS: Would it be acceptable, Your Honor, for 

Agent Miranda to step down from the witness stand, if he will 

keep your his voice up, and explain this?

THE COURT: Yes, sir. Keep your voice up.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Let me ask you, Agent Miranda, this 

demonstrative exhibit generally, what is it intended to depict 

or show?

A. It is intended to depict conversations or phone calls 

between some of the Defendants or the HLF offices and Hamas 

leaders overseas.

Q. All right. Let's take the top part. What is represented 

by that arc going from California to Iran?

A. This represents the five phone calls we discussed today 

to Imad al-Alami, who, as we pointed out with the evidence, is 

one of the representatives of Hamas in Tehran.

Q. And is this the man down here in the bottom row far left 

in the black and white picture? Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And let's look at the second arc going from New Jersey to 

Syria. What is represented by that arc?

A. This was the telephone call on the cellular phone records 

from the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain who was living in New 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

135

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Jersey which had an HLF office and that was to Moustafa Qanuo, 

who was the Hamas representative in Syria.

Q. For clarity sake, the block saying HLF under the word New 

Jersey is not intended to indicate or imply that the call was 

made from the New Jersey office of the Holy Land Foundation. 

A. No, just to point out that there was an office there at 

the time. These offices -- The OLF started off in California. 

That is why we put a box there. Of course, it was 

headquartered in Texas. That is why we had a box there. And 

it had an office in New Jersey at that time as well.

Q. And let's take the third arc, if you will, going from New 

Jersey to Gaza and Abdel Aziz Rantisi. That is to represent 

what?

A. These were the toll records of the Defendant Mohammad 

El-Mezain and he had those, if I recall right, six phone calls 

on one date and one on another, and those went to Abdel Aziz 

Rantisi, who is a Hamas leader in Gaza on the chart there, the 

second -- Yes.

Q. And again, that was from the home phone as shown by the 

records of Mohammad El-Mezain?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. Let's take the bottom arc that has an arrow going in a 

different direction. I am sorry. My fault. I am sorry. 

What is represented by that arc going from Jordan to New 

Jersey?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

136

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. This was a call we played for you earlier where Khalid 

Mishal, who is represented here as the Hamas Political Bureau 

leader, called the home phone of the Defendant Mohammad 

El-Mezain and left a message on his answering machine saying 

he was in Amman and that he wanted El-Mezain to come join him 

in Turkey for a conference.

Q. Let's go to the very bottom, these calls here in 1994, as 

shown on the chart between it looks like Texas and Yemen and 

Mohammed Siam. What is that bottom arc representing or 

intending to represent?

A. We showed you earlier some phone records that indicated 

that they were calling two office numbers in Yemen, and that 

immediately after contacting those office numbers in Yemen 

they called the home phone associated with Mohammed Siam.

Q. Now, this block in the middle of this arc shows a date or 

time period around February of '94, but in fact did the phone 

records themselves show other calls to Yemen at different 

times than just what is shown or represented in that block?

A. Right. This is not a complete listing of the phone calls 

in this instance to Mohammed Siam.

Q. And lastly, there is an arrow or an arc going from Sudan, 

as you pointed out which is on -- below Egypt on the eastern 

side of Africa, and it shows a link between Texas and Jamal 

Abu Baker and what is represented by that arc and the dates 

there?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

137

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Right. Jamal Abu Baker was at that point the Hamas 

leader in the Sudan, and he was making some phone calls back 

to his brother the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Just while the map is up there, you said that Jamal Abu 

Baker later or since these calls has relocated or located 

somewhere else?

A. Right.

Q. Where is he now?

A. He is in Yemen.

Q. And the country of Yemen is located at the end of the 

Saudi Arabian Peninsula just bordering the Arabian Sea and 

slightly the Red Sea. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. I have one more demonstrative which I would 

like you to address, Agent Miranda. If you will just resume, 

I will have to come back to that particular demonstrative in a 

moment.

I want to ask you, Agent Miranda, if in the course of 

your investigation you were able to find any evidence that was 

indicative of or could be interpreted as showing any of the 

Defendants' familiarity or knowledge with the laws of the 

United States as they related to designated terrorists, 

restrictions on designated terrorists, and that type of thing. 

Was any evidence of that nature located during the course of 

your investigation?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

138

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And specifically -- 

MR. JACKS: Just one moment, Your Honor. I don't 

want to refer to the wrong -- 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Are you familiar with what has been 

referred to in this case as Executive Order No. 12947?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you ever receive or uncover or locate a copy of 

that exact executive order during any of the searches in this 

case?

A. I did.

Q. Where was that located, that copy of Executive Order 

12947?

A. At InfoCom.

Q. And was that as a result or during the search of InfoCom 

in December of 2001?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where within the premises of InfoCom was that 

particular exhibit located?

A. In the office of the Defendant Ghassan Elashi.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we move the admission of InfoCom 

Search No. 37. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JACKS: Would you please, Mr. Lewis, display the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

139

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
first page of that exhibit? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, what is shown on the 

screen, is that a depiction of the paper document that was 

recovered?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what is the -- What is the title of the document? 

Where is it published, if you will?

A. The Federal Register.

Q. That is the vertical words there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the date that shows for this particular document?

A. January 25th, 1995.

Q. And then just the caption on the right side of the page, 

just read that into the record, if you would, please?

A. "Part IX. The President: Executive Order 12947 

prohibiting transactions with terrorists who threaten to 

disrupt the Middle East peace process."

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you go to the next 

page, please?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is this the body of that particular 

executive order?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. And if you would, the second full paragraph where it 

begins, "I, William J. Clinton," would you just please read 

that paragraph?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

140

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes. "I, William J. Clinton, President of the United 

States of America, find that grave acts of violence committed 

by foreign terrorists that disrupt the Middle East peace 

process constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the 

national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United 

States, and hereby declare a national emergency to deal with 

that threat."

Q. And if you would, if you would go down, do you see where 

it says, "I hereby order," below that, below the last sentence 

you just read?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. Okay. And below where it says, "I hereby order," there 

are it looks like four subparts or three subparts i, ii and 

"a" and "b." Just summarize those or paraphrase them, if you 

would, as you look at them?

A. Sure. It says, "The persons listed in the annex to this 

order, foreign persons designated by the Secretary of State, 

in coordination with the Secretary of the Treasury, the 

Attorney General, because they have found have committed or 

pose a significant risk of committing acts of violence that 

have the purpose or effect of disrupting the Middle East peace 

process, to assist in, sponsor, provide financial material or 

technological support for or services in support of such acts 

of violence, and, persons determined by the Secretary of the 

Treasury, in coordination with the Secretary of State and the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

141

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Attorney General, to be owned or controlled by, or to act for 

or on behalf of, any of the foregoing persons that are in the 

United States that hereafter come within the United States, or 

that hereafter come within the possession or control of the 

United States persons are blocked."

Q. Read paragraph little b there, please?

A. Yes, sir. "Any transaction or dealing by United States 

persons, or within the United States, in property or interests 

in property, of the persons designated in or pursuant to this 

order is prohibited, including the making or receiving of any 

contribution of funds, goods, or services to or for the 

benefit of such persons."

Q. And just read that one paragraph c, if you would?

A. "Any transaction by any United States person, or within 

the United States, that evades or avoids, or has the purpose 

of evading or avoiding, or attempts to violate any of the 

prohibitions set forth in this order, is prohibited."

Q. This order was signed in January of 1995?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And refresh our memory. When was the Philadelphia 

meeting we have heard testimony about?

A. October '93. It might have been earlier than that. 

Yeah.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, please, Mr. Lewis.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

142

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And this bears the signature of the 

President and the date. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: And would you go to the next page, Mr. 

Lewis?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is this the annex that is referenced 

in the body of the executive order?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And in the annex are there several organizations listed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what is the fifth organization listed there?

A. The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas.

Q. Okay. You said you found this within the offices of 

Ghassan Elashi at InfoCom. Is that correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Were there other documents that related to legislation or 

statutes that pertain to terrorism issues, that type of thing?

A. Yes, sir, there was.

Q. Directing your attention to InfoCom Search No. 38, a 

document with background on the Omnibus Terrorism Act, do you 

recall such a document being found?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was it also found within the offices of InfoCom?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Where within the offices more specifically was it found?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

143

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Ghassan Elashi's office. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, we move the admission of InfoCom 

Search No. 38. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you display, please, 

InfoCom Search No. 38?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is this the document that was found 

within that office?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And at the top of the document does it indicate who is 

disseminating this particular copy of this legislation?

A. The Antidefamation League.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: If you could scroll down, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is there a bates number at the bottom?

A. Yes, sir, there is.

Q. And does this bates number indicate to you that this 

document in the form it is in was found within the offices of 

Ghassan Elashi at InfoCom?

A. Yes.

Q. How many pages -- 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you just go through the 

pages, please? And go back to the first page, please, if you 

don't mind.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

144

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And in terms of -- This document itself 

does not bear a date on it. Is that correct?

A. I don't believe it does.

Q. Okay. And the date that it was found, though, was in 

September of 2001. 

A. Right. Between the 5th and the 7th.

Q. Were there other items of evidence, if you will, that 

were informative to you about the Defendants' familiarity or 

knowledge about legislation or statutes that addressed 

terrorism, specially designated terrorist groups, that type of 

thing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were there any intercepted calls that were -- That you 

considered informative or relevant to that issue or that 

knowledge?

A. Yes, sir, there was.

Q. Let me direct your attention to what has been marked as 

Baker Wiretap No. 31, the call on April 15th of 1996. Have 

you reviewed that call?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would move the admission of 

Baker Wiretap No. 31 and 31-A. 

MS. HOLLANDER: No objection. 

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JACKS: Would you play the first segment of 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

145

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
that, Mr. Lewis? 

(Whereupon, Section 1 Baker Wiretap No. 31-A was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, the answer "InfoCom 

Corporation what does that indicate about where this call was 

being placed to?

A. To InfoCom.

Q. And the initials GH and SH are reflective of who as the 

participants in this call?

A. GH would be the Defendant Ghassan Elashi and SH would be 

the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker. 

Q. You see the reference to an individual whose initials TH 

that says "This is America. Speak English." And I think we 

just heard his voice. Who was that person identified as?

A. If I recall correctly, that is an individual named Thomas 

Mohammed. 

Q. Agent Miranda, this passed by a second ago, but did you 

see the reference to John Bryant?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And there was a statement made that he was on the 

Judiciary Committee. Was he at the time a U.S. Congressman?

A. He was a Congressman at one point, yes.

Q. Did he later -- Is he also a lawyer?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he later represent the Holy Land Foundation?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

146

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes. 

Q. Agent Miranda, the exhibit indicated that call was April 

15th of 1996. And there was a reference or a statement by the 

Defendant Ghassan Elashi about Mousa Abu Marzook. Did you 

hear that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was Mousa Abu Marzook still in custody in New York 

during the time of this telephone call?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. And just to clear it up, he was not being held at the 

airport, was he?

A. No, he was not.

Q. Okay. He was in a detention facility there in New York?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. All right. I want to change topics at this time to ask 

you about did you -- Were you responsible or did you undertake 

to look into investigation of, for lack of a better term, what 

would be referred to as security or security measures that you 

found in the evidence in this case?

A. Yes.

Q. And let me just ask you -- Again, you have testified that 

you have been with the FBI for ore 11 years. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you have a military career prior to that?

A. Yes, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

147

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. In your military career -- In both of your careers have 

you received training in regards to security, both security 

from the standpoint of an organization of which you are a part 

of, and then security from the standpoint of organizations or 

individuals which may be an adversary to the organization that 

you are a part of?

A. Both.

Q. All right. Is the term operational security, is that 

something that you were taught or was covered in your military 

training?

A. Yes, op sec.

Q. Operation security, for a layperson, generally refers to 

what?

A. That is the security measures you take as an organization 

to deny the enemy knowledge of your operations and what you 

are up to.

Q. And what areas might it touch upon or include?

A. Telephone communications, maintenance of your security 

documentation, security clearances, things of that nature.

Q. And in the course of examining the evidence that was 

found in this case, did you find specific items of evidence 

that addressed the issue of security?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Let me ask you if you are familiar with a document that 

is identified as Elbarasse Search No. 15, specifically board 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

148

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
minute meetings. Are you familiar with that document?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that document, was that one of the documents that was 

found in the search of Ismail Elbarasse's house in northern 

Virginia in August of 2004?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would move the admission of 

Elbarasse Search No. 15.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor I think it is in. But if it 

is, not we have the same objection.

THE COURT: It is in. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, Your Honor. I think it was 

admitted by Agent Burns. 

Mr. Lewis, could you display the first page of Elbarasse 

Search No. 15?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And Agent Miranda, do you recognize this 

as the first page of Elbarasse Search No. 15?

A. I do.

Q. And the original document obviously is in Arabic. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: And if you would just go through the 

pages.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. The first page after the 

Arabic page, is that the English translation of the preceding 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

149

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Arabic page?

A. Yes, it is, sir.

Q. And are there or is there a reference in that particular 

page that addresses the issue of security?

A. Yes, there is.

Q. And first of all, just to orient the jury, if you would, 

and I think Agent Burns has already testified about this 

document, but just regarding the date and the title that this 

document bears, would you read that into the record?

A. Yes, sir. There is a date that is 2/22/1991, and then 

outgoing No. 7/91, and the title is "Relations relating to the 

Occupied Land Fund."

Q. That outgoing number, would that be or could that be 

consistent with July of 1991?

A. Yes, sir, it could be.

Q. Okay. And if you would, read the first line, second 

line, and then that phrase there; not the numbered things, but 

just the first three or four lines there?

A. It says, "Dear brother/chairman of the board of directors 

of the Fund. May God keep and protect him. God's peace, 

mercy and blessings upon you. 

"The following issues have been agreed on during your 

presence and the brothers, members of the board of directors, 

and the city of Los Angeles on 2/17/91."

MR. JACKS: And Mr. Lewis, if you would zoom out, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

150

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And let me introduce you to item No. 11 

at the bottom of the page, the last entry on the bottom of 

this page. And if you would just read into the record what 

item No. 11, what action item, or whatever you want to call 

it, item No. 11 is. 

A. "Brother Izzat Mansour is requested to visit the office 

of the Fund to take the necessary measures in regards to 

maintaining security."

Q. This is February of '91 and -- February 22nd of '91 is 

when this meeting took place. Correct?

A. It looks like the meeting took place on February 17th, 

'91, and then there was dated 2/22/91 with the other date as 

well.

Q. All right. And in February of '91 -- And of course the 

caption reads "Occupied Land Fund," so this document was 

created during the time that the Holy Land Foundation was 

still using the name Occupied Land Fund. Is that a fair 

statement?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. At the time in February of '91, where were their offices 

located?

A. California.

Q. And do you recall approximately when they relocated to 

Richardson, Texas?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

151

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. 1992.

Q. And so this reference to Izzat Mansour visiting the 

office of the Fund, the Fund would be indicative or consistent 

with the Occupied Land Fund?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Has the name Izzat Mansour, did you see that in any other 

documents to shed light on who he might have been?

A. Yes, we have seen that in a couple of documents.

Q. If we can go to the second page the signature line and 

who got a copy of this, what is the translation of that?

A. It says, "Your brother/head of the Central Committee," 

and it says "signed" in brackets. And then courtesy copy, the 

cc, "members of the Central Committee," courtesy copy, 

"members of the Fund's board of directors."

Q. And the term Central Committee, where else have we seen 

that?

A. Palestine Committee.

Q. All right. That is the reference to the Palestine 

Committee?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And of course the Fund's board of directors, according to 

the evidence you have examined, who were the persons 

most -- Were any Defendants members of the Fund's board of 

directors? 

A. On the board of the directors at the time would be the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

152

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Defendant Shukri Abu Baker the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain 

and the Defendant Ghassan Elashi.

Q. And let me ask you -- 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you please display 

Elbarasse Search No. 4? And if you would, just go to the 

first translation, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Now, Mr. Miranda, this document I believe 

was admitted during the testimony of Special Agent Burns, and 

do you recall having examined this document previously?

A. I have seen it, but it has been a while.

Q. And the first two or three pages, were they in Arabic or 

English of the original document?

A. Arabic.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: If you could, Mr. Lewis, go to the last 

page of the exhibit.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And have you seen this particular chart 

before?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And with regard to the individual identified as Izzat 

Mansour, is there a reference to an Izzat in this particular 

document?

A. Yes, there is. If you look under the apparatus labeled 

No. 14, "security."

Q. Is that visible on the screen now?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

153

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, pretty much in the middle of those -- You can see it 

with the No. 14 next to it. The very first name is Izzat.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: And if you could, zoom out, Mr. Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) The column that the word "security" and 

the number 14 next to it, what is the heading for that column? 

The person that created this chart, what does he call those 

entries underneath?

A. "The apparatuses."

Q. And are there other places in here that -- Let me direct 

your attention specifically to about halfway or two thirds of 

the way down. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, could you enlarge that part 

of the page?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And do you see the term Izzat or the name 

Izzat included in any of those blocks or boxes there?

A. Yes. On the line for No. 19, MAYA, if you go five over 

you will see the name Izzat.

Q. Where the curser is?

A. Yes.

Q. And MAYA is the organization you have previously 

testified about?

A. Yes, the Muslim Arab Youth Association.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: Let me ask Mr. Lewis if you could 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

154

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
display Elbarasse Search No. 10.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you recognize this exhibit?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. And is this the I think either org chart, or wire chart 

some people may have called it, for the Central Committee?

A. Correct.

Q. And in those blocks or boxes, at least the different 

entities under each part of that committee?

A. Correct. 

MR. JACKS: Would you go, please, to I believe it is 

the last page of the exhibit, Mr. Lewis? I am sorry. The 

next to the last, if you don't mind.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And let me ask you, Agent Miranda, is 

there a reference to an Izzat Mansour or Izzat on this 

particular translation of Elbarasse Search No. 10, that page?

A. Yes, there is, sir.

Q. If you would, start on the far right, which is the longer 

list, and then if his name appears elsewhere move across the 

page right to left does the name appear anywhere on the right 

hand side?

A. Yes, he is No. 23, Izzat Mansour.

Q. All right. No. 23?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. As you move across the page, is there any other reference 

to Izzat in that particular document?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

155

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Let me see. I thought there was. Maybe on another 

document.

Q. All right. Regardless, with regard to Elbarasse Search 

No. 4, he was shown as the number one person on the security 

apparatus?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page of this 

exhibit?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And there is no reference there on that 

particular document to Mr. Mansour. Correct?

A. Correct.

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you display Ashqar 

Search No. 1?

THE COURT: Before we go there, let's take the 

afternoon break. Let's take a 20-minute break. Be back at 

ten till. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: All right. We will be in recess for 20 

minutes.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, we were focusing on 

references to Izzat Mansour, and -- 

MR. JACKS: Let me ask, Mr. Lewis, would you please 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

156

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
display Ashqar Search No. 1 on the screen?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, this exhibit has been 

admitted, and you have seen it several times, I am sure. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you please go to I 

believe it is going to be the fifth or sixth page of the 

exhibit. Go back to the next page, if you don't mind.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, this has been admitted and 

identified as a list taken or photographed in Ashqar's house. 

And is the name of Izzat Mansour appear in this document?

A. Yes. Izzat Mansour is No. 41 on this particular 

document. I am sorry, No. 14.

Q. Okay. And is that his name at the very bottom?

A. Yes, it is, sir.

Q. And it shows a city of Ruston. Is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Ruston is what state?

A. Louisiana.

Q. Who else have we heard in this case that lived in Ruston 

for a period of time?

A. The Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. And the list there, if you would -- Is there any -- Is 

Marzook's name on this list as well?

A. Yes. Marzook's name is the first on the list. There is 

a similarity.

Q. What is the similarity, other than they both show the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

157

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
city of Ruston? What else is similar between Izzat Mansour 

and Marzook?

A. They both share the same fax number, which is 

318-255-6102.

Q. All right. With regard to this relationship between 

Marzook and Izzat Mansour and the Occupied Land Fund/Holy Land 

Fund, did you have occasion to prepare a demonstrative exhibit 

that pulls the evidence together that refers to that 

particular circumstance or situation?

A. Yes, I did, sir.

Q. Let me show you what is marked for identification 

purposes as Demonstrative No. 2. 

A. Right.

Q. And is this a demonstrative exhibit that seeks to connect 

the exhibits or evidence that relates to this particular 

topic?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And there appears to be one exhibit on there that I 

didn't get a chance to ask you about. Let me just show you on 

this demonstrative, there is an item on there, it is marked 

for identification purposes as Marzook Bank Account No. 1, and 

do you recognize that item as it appears on this 

demonstrative?

A. I do, sir.

Q. And without describing the writing on it, what is it a 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

158

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
reproduction of?

A. A check.

Q. And is that a check that was acquired from the bank 

records of Mousa Abu Marzook?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Judge, I don't remember if this was 

admitted through Agent Burns or not, but it is Marzook Bank 

Account No. 1.

THE COURT: That is in evidence. I show that in. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. Could you please display that 

exhibit, Mr. Lewis? Let me ask you if you could scroll 

through the pages.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, does this show or identify 

this bank statement as being a bank statement for Mousa Abu 

Marzook in Ruston, Louisiana?

A. Yes, it does, sir.

Q. And the time frame for this particular statement, what is 

the date of this statement?

A. 12/13/1990.

Q. And just to refer back to put things in chronological 

perspective, do you recall the exhibit that talked about the 

Hamas delegation to Iran?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And when was the first visit that was referenced in that 

exhibit with regard to Mr. Abu Marzook and his heading up that 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

159

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
delegation?

A. I believe it was September of 1990. It may have been a 

little bit earlier than that, but he headed up the delegation.

Q. So it would predate this bank statement?

A. Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you zoom out and go to 

the next page, please?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is this the item or the bit of 

evidence that you found that is a further connection or link, 

if you will, between Marzook and Izzat Mansour?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just describe it now for the record as far as what is 

shown in this particular exhibit?

A. Yes, sir. This is a check from Mousa Abu Marzook with an 

address on the face of the check from Ruston, Louisiana, dated 

11/9/1990, and it is to the order of Izzat Mansour in the 

amount of $3,218. And it is signed with a signature that I 

recognize as being of Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, go back to the preceding 

page, if you would.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Does that bank statement there show the 

check or the amount of the check being taken out of the 

account?

A. Yes, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

160

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Up there kind of to the right side?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, the Government would move 

for the admission of Government's Exhibit Demonstrative No. 2, 

which pertains to this security issue for the Occupied Land 

Fund/Holy Land Foundation. 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, we object to this 

demonstrative on the grounds it is misleading; it doesn't 

fairly characterize the evidence on which it relies. 

THE COURT: Okay. Overrule that objection, and 

Government's Demonstrative No. 2 is admitted. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, may I again request the 

Court's permission for Agent Miranda just to step down from 

the witness stand to describe or explain Demonstrative No. 2? 

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, would you mind?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In looking at Demonstrative No. 2 it bears the caption 

"Marzook orders security for OLF (HLF)." And what is the 

evidence that supports the word "orders"?

A. Right. First we will work on this document. This is the 

document entitled "resolutions relating to the Occupied Land 

Fund." Point 11 was Izzat Mansour was to go to the office of 

the Fund, which of course is the Occupied Land Fund, and take 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

161

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
the necessary measures in regards to maintaining security.

Q. Just let me interrupt you. Are these reproductions on 

this chart, do they have their respective exhibit label 

numbers or names next to them?

A. Yes, out to the side here.

Q. So the one -- The record doesn't show what you are 

pointing to, so the one you are pointing to is identified how 

on this particular poster?

A. Elbarasse Search No. 15.

Q. Okay. Go ahead. 

A. So on the second page of this exhibit it said "Head of 

the Central Committee," and then it was signed, and then it 

said cc, courtesy copy that went to the board of directors of 

the Occupied Land Fund. Well, the head of the Central 

Committee, this is a '91 letter, this is '91 organizational 

chart for the Central Committee or the Palestine Committee. 

And we have shown evidence that the head of the Central 

Committee at that time was Mousa Abu Marzook, who we have 

already discussed was greeting delegations of Hamas to Iran.

Q. You are indicating on the lower left side of the poster 

what has been identified as Elbarasse Search No. 10. Is that 

right?

A. Yes. I first went to the wire diagram on Elbarasse 

Search No. 10, and you can see here it says "President Central 

Committee," and those are the organizations underneath the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

162

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Central Committee to include the Occupied Land Fund. And that 

is by the way of diagram there is the name Mousa, which is 

Mousa Abu Marzook, and it even says "the administrative aspect 

chairman Mousa." So that is his signature block at the bottom 

of this letter telling Izzat Mansour to go do the security at 

the HLF. 

And as we just pointed out from Ashqar Search No. 1, this 

is the Palestine Committee list we have already shown you that 

Izzat Mansour was a member of the Palestine Committee in fact 

living in the same town and sharing the same fax number as 

Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzook, and they even had a financial 

relationship as well.

Q. All right. And directing your attention to Elbarasse 

Search No. 10 as it is reproduced on this chart, is Izzat 

Mansour shown on that chart -- I am sorry. There is another 

exhibit that is not depicted on this, but the apparatus chart 

that we looked at, and is that a document that you also used, 

even though it is not depicted on this particular poster, that 

sheds light on this particular arrangement?

A. Right. Of course, this is saying for him to take care of 

the security of the Occupied Land Fund. And the document you 

just mentioned was the one that had all the apparatuses, and 

it had one for security, and the first individual listed for 

security was Izzat.

Q. All right. And that was that larger chart with all the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

163

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
boxes and the organizations down the left hand column?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Just for clarification's purposes, the board of 

director minutes have or contain a statement by the head of 

the Central Committee. Is that the terminology?

A. Yes. That is going to be on the second page of this, the 

second page of the translation.

Q. Okay. But the original, did you look -- Was there a 

signature on the original, and was it necessarily Marzook's 

signature?

A. No, it was not Marzook's signature.

Q. All right. 

A. It said "head of the Central Committee," and then there 

was a signature underneath that.

Q. Okay. Have you ever seen documents where under one 

person's name someone signs for them?

A. Yes. I have done that myself lots of times.

Q. All right. Thank you. You can resume the witness stand. 

Staying in the area of security or security measures 

-- Let me ask you this question. In the course of your 

participation in this investigation, did you have a chance to 

look at evidence to see the relationship that existed between 

the Holy Land Foundation and InfoCom and the extent and nature 

of that relationship? 

A. Yes, I did, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

164

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. I believe you indicated that you were involved in the 

search of InfoCom in September of 2001. Is that correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Were you a primary agent or case agent on that portion of 

that investigation?

A. Yes, I was the primary case agent.

Q. All right. And obviously you went there on the date of 

the search to InfoCom. Had you been to that location prior to 

that day, prior to September of 2001?

A. Not on the interior, but I had been to the InfoCom area 

numerous times prior to the date of the search or the days of 

the search.

Q. Did you or other agents -- First of all, let me ask you, 

did other agents do periodic physical surveillance, just 

watching the comings and goings?

A. I and other agents, yes.

Q. Okay. What, if anything, did you observe as far as 

activity between the Holy Land Foundation and InfoCom?

A. There was a lot of foot traffic between both locations. 

As I have mentioned before, they were directly across the 

street, within a stone's throw of each other, and there was 

always movement back and forth.

Q. Let me ask you, are you familiar with what we have marked 

as a Government exhibit called HLF/InfoCom Map? Are you 

familiar with that exhibit?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

165

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. I think I am, sir.

Q. All right. And is it an aerial photo of the location 

where InfoCom and Holy Land Foundation were located in 

Richardson, Texas?

A. Yes, sir. That is right.

Q. And is it something that just was acquired from the 

internet?

A. Right.

Q. Does InfoCom -- Excuse me. Does Government Exhibit 

HLF/InfoCom Map fairly and accurately portray what it attempts 

to portray--that is, the physical relationship between the 

offices of InfoCom and the offices of the Holy Land Foundation 

in Richardson, Texas?

A. It does. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would move the admission of 

Holy Land Foundation/InfoCom Map. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Would you please display that, Mr. Lewis?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) This may be better, Agent Miranda. Do 

you recognize what is shown on the screen as HLF InfoCom Map 

Government's exhibit?

A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. And the heading is 630 International Parkway, Richardson, 

Texas. Whose address was that?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

166

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. The address of InfoCom.

Q. All right. And it has got a star in the middle of the 

street, but just, if you don't mind, would you kind of orient 

the jury -- Let me ask you questions regarding this particular 

location that we are looking at. Is it east or west of 

Central Expressway?

A. East.

Q. And are you familiar with the east-west street known as 

Arapaho Road?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And is Arapaho north what we are looking at or south?

A. I believe it is north and then you come down 

International Parkway, as I recall.

Q. So the direction -- This direction is north. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So Arapaho would be somewhere off the map here and it is 

an east-west street. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this International Parkway that kind of bisects the 

map, that is a north-south, generally, street?

A. Yes, it is, sir.

Q. And if you would, guide me to the location among these 

buildings shown on this aerial map, which one of these contain 

the offices of InfoCom?

A. Do you see where the star is with the A right on the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

167

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
middle of International Parkway? 

Q. Yes, sir.

A. It is going to be to what amounts to the east. Right. 

Now, InfoCom did not have control of the entire building. 

They had a portion of that building, and it was the southern 

portion of the building.

Q. All right. Where the end of my pen is, is that where the 

offices of InfoCom were located?

A. Right. Exactly. There was, in fact, if you will -- You 

will see kind of it cuts the corner there. I guess that is 

going to be the southwest corner where your pen is at, that 

would be the main doorway into InfoCom.

Q. All right. And did their office space go from the west 

side of this building to the back, the east side? Did they 

have that entire space?

A. Yes, they did. They just didn't control the entire 

building. But yes, it went from the west side all the way to 

the east side of the building.

Q. And as far as how much in a northerly direction, can you 

tell me about where their office ended here?

A. Not more than probably -- you can see a third vehicle 

there. Not more than there, I believe.

Q. The vehicles there in front?

A. Right.

Q. So somewhere around there their office would have been 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

168

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
the southern end of this particular building that the pen is 

over?

A. Right. In fact, if you look at the back of the building, 

the east side, there is something that either looks like maybe 

a delivery truck or some sort of vehicle possibly.

Q. This object there?

A. Right. There was a loading dock back there, and the 

loading dock was pretty much towards the northern end of the 

extent of their building.

Q. So somewhere in this area is where the loading dock was?

A. Uh-huh, right.

Q. And this other part of the building, that was other 

tenants, other companies?

A. Right, exactly.

Q. Okay. Now, the Holy Land Foundation offices were where 

in relation to the InfoCom offices?

A. Just across the street, diagonally across International 

Parkway.

Q. Diagonally this way or this way?

A. The second way.

Q. This building?

A. Right.

Q. And as far as their office space, was it limited in this 

particular building?

A. It was limited in that building. I believe there was 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

169

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
other tenants again on the south side.

Q. Down here?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. And so we are basically talking about this 

part of this building, which would be the northeast portion of 

this building on the west side of International Parkway would 

be where the Holy Land Foundation offices were?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then on the east side of International Parkway the 

southern part of this longer building would be where the 

offices of InfoCom was. Is that correct?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. Okay. And you said that in your capacity being out 

there, you would see foot traffic going back and forth between 

the two?

A. I would.

Q. Did you, in looking at exhibits, find evidence of 

individuals that were somehow associated or affiliated with 

both organizations?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you find any evidence indicating that they had 

business transactions with one another?

A. They had business transactions, yes, they did.

Q. Directing your attention to the search that was 

conducted at InfoCom in September of 2001, was that the first 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

170

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
time that you had ever been inside the premises or the offices 

of InfoCom?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. And, if you would, I believe you have testified that 

within the premises of InfoCom you found materials that 

belonged to the Holy Land Foundation. Is that correct?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what was it that led you to the conclusion that they 

belonged to the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Well, quite a few things. First, there was -- Towards 

the east side of the building there was a bit of a more narrow 

section of the building that was essentially being used for 

photography. There were lights that you would find in any 

studio, there was a big cardboard cut-out of the Dome of the 

Rock, there was a cardboard cut-outs of kids, and --

Q. Let me just stop you for a second. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you mind turning on the 

elmo again?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, you called it a studio?

A. Yeah, it was, exactly.

Q. Okay. What part -- To the extent that this photograph is 

big enough, what part of the office were you talking about 

where you found this studio?

A. Towards the east side of the building, backside, it was a 

narrow -- let's just describe it as a narrow triangle running 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

171

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
along the east side of the building.

Q. Near the back?

A. Or rectangle I should say, yeah.

Q. And what led you to describe it as a studio? What were 

the things that you saw in there?

A. Well, there were, again, some cut-outs, cut-out kids, 

cut-out Dome of the Rock, cameras -- Not cameras, but the 

typical lights that you would see in a photograph studio where 

you go take a family picture or something. And then off of 

that was a closet big enough to walk in, probably no longer 

than the front of the jury box here, and in that was quite a 

few boxes to include things that were obviously on the face of 

it Holy Land materials--Holy Land T-shirts, Holy Land coffee 

cups, magnets for your refrigerator, that sort of thing. 

Intermixed with all of that, there were pamphlets. So it was 

pretty easy to deduce that.

Q. All right. And just to refresh the jury's memory, you 

said a photo of the Dome of the Rock. 

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And what did it look like? The Dome of the Rock refers 

to what or is it part of a place that is known by another 

name?

A. Well, it is part of the noble sanctuary the Haram 

al-Sharif in Jerusalem. But it is the gold-domed mosque that 

we have seen within various symbols within this case.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

172

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. All right. 

A. I mentioned it is in Jerusalem, if I didn't mention that. 

It is in the old city.

Q. So it is a location, and I think you have testified about 

this last week, that is one of the holiest sites in the 

Islamic religion. Correct?

A. The third.

Q. It is in the old city of Jerusalem?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And there are at least two principal buildings within 

that area. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when you said this photo was there, is it the 

building with the gold dome that we have seen in other 

exhibits?

A. Right. There is a big cardboard cut-out which was 

standing up.

Q. Is it a backdrop?

A. Exactly.

Q. All right. And you said there were cut-outs of kids. 

Are those made from cardboard or posterboard or something?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. You have told us about the paraphernalia that 

you saw in there. Were there -- Was there other equipment 

that you saw that you can tell us what it was or how it 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

173

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
appeared to be used, what type of equipment it was?

A. Right. Right off of what I described as the studio was 

another room more to the interior of the building that had 

lots of videotapes in it and lots of equipment that looked 

like it was used to make videos, dub videos, mix videos.

Q. Electronic equipment?

A. Yes.

Q. Or I guess it is electronic. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And within all of this other area were there any paper 

documents or paper records that were also located in this part 

of InfoCom?

A. Yes, there were, in that closet I described there were 

various boxes, and Holy Land Foundation materials were within 

those boxes.

Q. And are some of those the documents that have been 

admitted in this trial which bear the label InfoCom Search 

whatever, 1, 10, 50, whatever?

A. Right. Either as an exhibit it will say InfoCom Search 

or the bates label it will say SW, and that refers to the 

InfoCom search warrant.

Q. All right. When you were looking at documents that were 

recovered through this search, did you come across documents 

that were indicative of a relationship between InfoCom and the 

Holy Land Foundation transactually or a business-type 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

174

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
relationship?

A. Yes, I came across many.

Q. I want to direct your attention to what has been 

identified as Holy Land Foundation Search, and this particular 

document was found within the Holy Land Foundation offices. 

Is that correct? If it bears the name Holy Land Foundation 

search?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And did you find evidence that was indicative of a 

contract between the Holy Land Foundation and InfoCom that 

pertained to this space that you just finished telling us 

about?

A. Yes, I did, sir.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can we get a number on the 

document? I think he said Holy Land Foundation Search. 

MR. JACKS: No. 165. I may have stopped. I 

apologize. 

Judge, we would move the admission of Holy Land 

Foundation Search No. 165. 

MR. CLINE: No objection. 

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, depicted on the screen is 

a document, and can you tell us, is that a picture of the 

document that has been admitted as Holy Land Foundation Search 

No. 165?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

175

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir. That is correct.

Q. And the bates stamp at the bottom, the very tiny little 

letters that say HLDL and then it has got a series of numbers, 

what does that tell you about where it was found, in which 

premises or box materials from which premises?

A. Holy Land Dallas is what that represents, HL being Holy 

Land, DL being the specific city of the search. And the first 

two numbers afterwards indicate a box that it came out of, and 

then the number to the far right would be the number of the 

document within that box.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: Could you zoom out, Jim? Thank you.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) I didn't want to try to throw you a 

curve, but this particular document, whose letterhead is it 

on?

A. InfoCom Corporation.

Q. And does it have the address and telephone and fax 

numbers and that type of thing?

A. Yes, in the upper right hand corner.

Q. Is there a date?

A. Yes, right under the InfoCom logo it is dated Monday July 

31st, 2000.

Q. And the heading of the first paragraph there tells us 

what kind of a document it is. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir. It says it is a services contract agreement.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

176

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Between what parties?

A. The parties are the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and 

Development and InfoCom Corporation, which is in the first 

paragraph under agreement. 

MR. JACKS: Go down to the outline of services, Mr. 

Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And Agent Miranda, does this part of the 

document show what services InfoCom as the service provider is 

going to be providing?

A. Yes, sir, it does.

Q. And it just specifies those there in that paragraph. Is 

that correct?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Could you go to the next page, please, 

Mr. Lewis?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And the top of the page, does it continue 

to list the things that InfoCom is supposed to be doing for 

the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, it does, in paragraphs with kind of a main heading 

there.

Q. All right. And does one of -- It just goes "maintenance, 

management, local area network, consulting." Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, please, Mr. Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And the top of that page, does it have a 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

177

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
category or a paragraph for facilities?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. All right. And what is represented as being provided by 

InfoCom to the Holy Land Foundation under that part of the 

document?

A. It says, "The client"--which in this case is going to be 

the Holy Land Foundation--"has the use of 1400 square feet of 

InfoCom Corporation for the purpose of executing projects and 

needs requiring technological facilities not available at 

client location."

Q. All right. And the next sentence indicates what will 

InfoCom provide?

A. They will "supervise and offer consultation to the 

client's information technology staff."

Q. Okay. And is there -- Then there is a part of the 

contract that talks about compensation. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what is the agreed upon compensation, according to 

this document?

A. The Holy Land was supposed to receive $6,000 per month 

for 12 months.

Q. Receive or pay?

A. No, the Holy Land was to pay. I am sorry.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: If you would, go to the next page, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

178

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is this a continuation of that 

agreement?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: And the next page, please, Mr. Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And then again the agreement continues. 

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is this the signature page for the 

agreement, Agent Miranda?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. And who has signed for the different parties? Who signed 

for the Holy Land Foundation?

A. The name is Haitham Maghawri.

Q. Is that a name we have heard throughout this case?

A. Yes, we have, sir.

Q. And the signature for InfoCom?

A. It is going to be Bayan Elashi.

Q. And is that one of the Defendant Ghassan Elashi's 

brothers?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, if you would.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And is this a check stub, for lack of a 

better word a check stub, Agent Miranda?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And who does it show to be the vendor or the person that 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

179

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
is being issued a check?

A. InfoCom Corporation is being issued a check.

Q. What amount of rent is being paid?

A. The monthly rent is $1400.

Q. And then there is a charge for what else?

A. Design and development.

Q. Okay. And the date, please, for those two charges or 

disbursements or whatever?

A. 7/3/2000 and 7/1/2000.

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page, please, 

Mr. Lewis? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is this an invoice, Agent Miranda, from 

InfoCom?

A. Yes, I recognize this as an invoice from InfoCom.

Q. To the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the amount of invoice as far as dollar amount?

A. $3,000, I believe. If we can go to the bottom. Yes, it 

is going to be $3,000, amount due. 

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page, Mr. 

Lewis?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And this is a second invoice, a different 

invoice? 

A. Yes. This is for a different item.

Q. What is the date on this particular invoice, either the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

180

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
date it was issued or the date it bills for? What dates 

appear on this page?

A. Well, the invoice date is 7/3/2000. You can see that in 

the box up to the right where it says "invoice," and there is 

a due date there as well of 7/23/2000.

Q. And what property or service was being charged for, 

according to this invoice?

A. You can see in the main body of the invoice towards the 

bottom there it says, "Monthly rent, media room, July 2000, 

(2) phone lines and PC connection for the internet."

Q. And the price that is charged for that?

A. $1600, it looks to be monthly.

Q. All right. Did -- The search of InfoCom, to your 

knowledge, was the FBI aware that the Holy Land Foundation had 

two additional phone lines across the street at InfoCom?

A. No.

Q. Was the FBI aware that the Holy Land Foundation had an 

internet connection or access across the street at the 

premises of InfoCom?

A. I don't believe we were.

Q. All right. Now, is it fair to assume that -- You said 

this search warrant at InfoCom lasted three days?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So I take it that not everything in that search was 

immediately able to be read within a day or two. Is that 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

181

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
correct?

A. No. There was quite a few boxes and computers.

Q. Okay. So there was obviously some time that was required 

to locate and review whatever was taken out of there. Is that 

correct?

A. An extensive amount of time.

Q. Okay. And the closure of the Holy Land Foundation came 

before or after the search at InfoCom?

A. After.

Q. About how much time after?

A. Three months.

Q. All right. And the materials that were seized from the 

Holy Land Foundation, were they available to be reviewed 

immediately and extensively after they were seized?

A. No, they were not. By the FBI? 

Q. Yes. 

A. No. The answer is no.

Q. I want to direct your attention again back to your search 

of the premises at InfoCom. And within the area where you 

said you found Holy Land Foundation records, was that area 

close to or among these other Holy Land Foundation -- this 

other Holy Land Foundation property that you have told us 

about?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And so the Holy Land Foundation paper records, paper 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

182

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
documents, were close in area to where the mugs and the 

T-shirts and that type of stuff was located?

A. Same area.

Q. Okay. And were those paper records in boxes?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Were some of the documents within those boxes in their 

own files?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. At some point in time after the FBI had time to 

review that material, did you come across a document which 

appeared to be related to or focused on security or security 

issues?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And was that document found -- Where was that document 

found? Was it found within the Holy Land Foundation search 

materials or the Holy Land Foundation materials that came from 

within InfoCom? Which of those two?

A. From within InfoCom.

Q. Okay. And was that document in its original form in 

Arabic or in English?

A. Arabic.

Q. And was it eventually translated by the FBI?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And I take it you have seen that document several times 

since it was returned from translation?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

183

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir, I have.

Q. Are you familiar, then, with the document identified as 

InfoCom Search No. 35?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And is this the document that we have been talking about?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would move the admission of 

InfoCom Search No. 35. 

MR. CLINE: We object as previously stated. 

THE COURT: And those are overruled, and InfoCom 

Search No. 35 is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Now, Agent Miranda, I do not mean to beat 

a dead horse, but I just want to make sure that it is clear. 

This document was found within InfoCom. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. But within the Holy Land Foundation boxes within InfoCom. 

A. Correct.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, could you display the first 

page of InfoCom Search No. 35?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And Agent Miranda, do you recognize that 

as the first page of this document?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. I am going to refer to it as a security document, for the 

ease of reference. Is that all right?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

184

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. First of all, this is a scanned picture of 

that document. Correct?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. And it obviously has smudges or discoloration on it. 

What caused that?

A. We attempted to fingerprint it.

Q. So it was examined to determine if any fingerprints, 

identifiable fingerprints could be raised or located on it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And were there any identifiable fingerprints located on 

that?

A. No, they couldn't determine.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: And if you would, Agent Lewis, would you 

scroll through these pages, just the Arabic pages, if you 

don't mind.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And again, Agent Miranda, Arabic is read 

from right to left. Correct?

A. Right.

Q. So the first part of a sentence or paragraph would begin 

on the right side of the page and move across. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. The image that is shown on the screen now, is this the 

English translation of the first page of that security 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

185

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
document?

A. Yes, sir, it is.

Q. And is there anything about the document, besides where 

it was found, that leads you to believe that it was a document 

that belonged to the Holy Land Foundation?

A. The title.

Q. What about the title?

A. It reads "The Foundation's policies and guidelines."

Q. And that is of course the heading of the document. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there a number that appears below the title?

A. Yes, sir, No. 2.

Q. And was that number in Arabic on the original page?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So this No. 2 is not something put there by the 

translator, other than the fact he translated something from 

the original. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. I believe the original document was 

approximately 10 or 12 pages in Arabic?

A. Approximately.

Q. Okay. The English translation, can you just -- 

MR. JACKS: Let me ask you, Mr. Lewis, if you could 

just zoom out, please.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

186

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, are there headings that 

appear throughout this document?

A. Yes, there are.

Q. Okay.

A. Headings and sub headings.

Q. Okay. Point out the two that are on this page. 

A. "No. 1, in meetings; A, periodical meetings."

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, go to the next page.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Headings under meetings, what are the 

next headings that appear?

A. "1-B, public activities; 1-C, courses."

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, please, Mr. Lewis. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Go ahead. What is the next topic that 

appears?

A. "No. 2, documents safety."

MR. JACKS: And the next page, Mr. Lewis.

THE WITNESS: "No. 3, communications safety. 

Administrative communications. No. 1, communication between 

levels of the apparatus and its field committees; no. 2, 

communication between the general secretariat and work 

committees in the apparatus; No. 3, field communication 

between various institutions; A, mail correspondence."

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, Mr. Lewis. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What headings appear on this particular 

page?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

187

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. "B, telephonic communication; C, communication via fax."

Q. Continue. 

A. "D, communication via live (human) points. Basic 

security measures in communications, No. 4, safety of 

relationships; A, relationship with the Administration."

MR. JACKS: And the next page, please.

THE WITNESS: "B, relationship with parties and 

movements; C, relationship with the state and official 

organizations, D, media and newspapers interviews; E, 

contacting news agencies or different media outlets."

MR. JACKS: And the next page, please, Mr. Lewis. 

THE WITNESS: "No. 5, travel and transportation 

safety; No. 6, practical (or operational) names and 

administrative skeletons; No. 7, safety of offices and firms."

MR. JACKS: And the next page, please? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What are the headings -- Apparently this 

is a continuation of the heading from the previous page. 

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Jim, go to the next page.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What is the heading for this page 11 as 

it is labeled?

A. "No. 8, safety of personal residences, work apartments, 

cars, and possessions."

MR. JACKS: Next page, please, Jim. 

THE WITNESS: "No. 9, money safety; No. 11, hotels 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

188

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
safety; No. 12, services and maintenance safety."

MR. JACKS: Next page, please, Jim.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And this is a continuation of -- I 

believe you said the previous page heading was services and 

maintenance safety?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. This is a continuation of that?

A. Correct. 

MR. JACKS: Next page, Jim.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What is the heading for this page?

A. "Documents classification, appendix."

MR. JACKS: And the next page, Jim. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And this is a continuation of that 

document classification heading?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: And the last page, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And does that appear to be a continuation 

of document classification?

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Go back, if you would, Mr. Lewis, to the 

first page of the translation, which is going to be page 12. 

Thank you.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. Let's go back to the 

different headings and examine this document and what it talks 

about.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

189

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
The heading meetings and the sub heading periodical 

meetings, there is about 11 entries or guidelines or policies 

typed out there. Is that correct? Excuse me. No. 11, and 

then they continue on below that gap in the page. 

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, Mr. Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) So how many guidelines or policies are 

shown under that first heading for periodical meetings?

A. Twenty-five.

MR. JACKS: If you would go back to the first page. 

Thank you.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Would you look at item No. 2, Agent 

Miranda, and just read into the record? What policy or 

guideline is set forth in item No. 2 under periodical 

meetings?

A. Item No. 2 reads, "Agreeing on a cover for the reason of 

the meeting, which is in harmony with the type of the 

relationship."

Q. And let me just ask you to go down to No. 13, and can you 

read the policy or guideline that is labeled No. 13?

A. Yes, sir. No. 13 reads, "Agreeing on an upper ceiling 

for what could be said in case of summons."

Q. And those two policies, agreeing on a cover for the 

reason for the meeting and agreeing on what can be said in 

case of summons, did you ever find any evidence in 

investigating this case that indicated that the Holy Land 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

190

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Foundation or any of its officers or any of the Defendants 

adhered to or appeared to be following these particular 

guidelines or policies?

A. Yes, I think there was a very good example of that in the 

Philadelphia conference. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you please go to 

Philadelphia Meeting No. 1, and page 10, if you would? And if 

you would, enlarge where OM is speaking at the bottom of the 

page, I would like you to enlarge are that. Thank you.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And OM refers to who, Agent Miranda?

A. Omar Ahmad.

Q. Okay. And if you would, do you see it is going to be the 

third line where it begins "This meeting"?

A. Yes, sir, I see that.

Q. Would you read that sentence, please?

A. "This meeting was called for by the Palestine Committee 

in order to have a seminar or a meeting to the brothers 

present here today in order to study the situation in light of 

the latest developments on the Palestinian arena, its effects 

and impact on our work here in America."

Q. All right. Thank you. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you please go to 

Philadelphia Meeting No. 3, page 10, likewise of that 

transcript? And if you would, the large paragraph kind of in 

the middle of the page with SH, would you enlarge that, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

191

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
please?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And who is SH that is speaking at this 

part of the Philadelphia meeting?

A. This is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. And if you would, read about the first five lines of that 

comment or that statement by Shukri Abu Baker. 

A. Yes, sir. "My brothers, this talk is to be continued, 

God's willing. There are remarks now. Please don't mention 

the name Samah in an explicit manner. We agree on saying it 

as Sister Samah. We will talk about her honor, and the 

session is -- the session here is a joint workshop between the 

Holy Land Foundation and the IAP. This is the official form. 

I mean, please, in case some inquired."

Q. Thank you. Those two statements, do they appear to be 

consistent with those policies that you talked about on the 

first page of the English translation insofar as periodic 

meetings or meetings and how they are to be conducted?

A. On the security document, yes.

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, would you put InfoCom Search 

No. 35 back up there on the screen, please? And I believe as 

I said, page 12 is the first page of the English.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Would you look at item No. 5 or policy 

No. 5 that is set forth there under periodical meetings and 

read that policy into the record, please, Agent Miranda?

A. Yes, sir. No. 5 reads, "Avoiding having the meetings at 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

192

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
the homes of those who are under watch."

Q. Would you go down to No. 8, and would you read into the 

record that policy or guideline for periodical meetings?

A. No. 8 says, "During the meeting, arrange papers and 

meeting materials in a manner which makes them easy to get rid 

of in an emergency." 

MR. JACKS: Let me ask you, Mr. Lewis, would you 

scroll down, please, to the bottom of this page? Thank you.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you see item No. 14, Agent Miranda?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is the policy or guideline that is set out next to 

item No. 4?

A. It reads, "Conducting distortion and detection techniques 

to reveal any hidden equipment in the location before the 

meeting is underway." 

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page, Jim?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you see -- Now, this next page 

continues to list the policies for periodical meetings. Is 

that correct?

A. Up to -- Yes, sir. That is correct.

Q. All right. Do you see item No. 19 there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you read item No. 19 into the record?

A. No. 19 reads, "Not arriving to the meeting place directly 

from exposed locations (offices, centers, et cetera.)"

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

193

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. The word exposed, have we seen that word in other 

evidence or exhibits in this case?

A. Yes.

Q. And will it be -- Does it appear other places in this 

document?

A. I believe it does.

Q. Okay. Let me direct your attention -- 

MR. JACKS: Jim, if you could go down to sub heading 

1-C, courses.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And do you see those entries, Agent 

Miranda?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. I direct your attention to item No. 2, and just read that 

into the record?

A. No. 2 reads, "Avoiding the overlapping of unexposed 

elements from different committees in the same course to avert 

being exposed."

Q. So there is again a reference to the term exposed and 

unexposed. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you see item No. 3 beneath that? Would you please 

read item No. 3 into the record? 

A. No. 3 states, "The rule is to avoid gathering individuals 

who know others by their real names in the same course if they 

have no knowledge of their roles in the apparatus, unless they 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

194

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
are in the same formation or will be later grouped in the same 

formation due to work necessity."

Q. The word apparatus that appears in item No. 3, have we 

seen that word used in other documents in this case?

A. Just today we saw it.

Q. Remember the big chart that had all the blocks and small 

print in it?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What was the name for the entries on the far left hand 

column? What were they referred to as?

A. The apparatuses.

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page, Agent 

Lewis? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And again this is under sub heading 1-C, 

"courses," and would you read item No. 5 into the record, Mr. 

Miranda?

A. Yes, sir. "Getting rid of any materials related to the 

course after the meeting."

Q. Item No. 6, would you read that, please?

A. "Securing documents during moving and transportation."

Q. The next segment is entitled "documents safety." Is that 

correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And on this page at least, there are nine policies or 

guidelines. Is that right?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

195

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Item No. 3, the policy or guideline in item No. 3, would 

you read that, please?

A. Yes, sir. No. 3 states, "Classifying documents with 

every committee in four categories: General, limited, 

private, and very private. (see appendix.)"

Q. And does this policy make reference to the last two or 

three pages that you referenced a few moments ago of this 

document?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Would you go down to item No. 7? Could you read item 

No. 7, please?

A. No. 7 states, "Destruction of documents is to be done by 

burning or shredding. Also all equipment used in saving 

documents and which do not agree with the nature of the 

location are to be removed."

Q. Would you look at policy or guideline No. 9 under 

"document safety" and read that, please?

A. No. 9 states, "Using the computer to send faxes between 

exposed offices, keeping in mind to encrypt the files before 

they are sent. This could be coordinated with the maintenance 

committee."

Q. Again there is the reference or use of the word exposed. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

196

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. And the reference to the maintenance committee, do you 

recall -- Strike that. Let me just go to the next page. This 

is page 15 of the exhibit, I believe page 4 of the original. 

And do you see the heading there for communication safety?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. And then the sub headings it looks like, well, several. 

Do you see the first entry numbered No. 1, "Communication 

between levels"?

A. Yes, sir, I see that.

Q. Read that into the record, please. 

A. "Communication between levels of the apparatus and its 

field committees." 

Q. And then would you go read item No. 2 of that underlined 

Section 1?

A. Yes, sir. It reads, "Descending, ascending, and 

horizontal communication are to be conducted through 

committees chairmen or communication officers."

Q. And in your experience what would be descending and 

ascending communication? In an organization what would that 

be talking about?

A. Orders up the chain or orders down the chain of command.

Q. And then horizontal communication in an organization in 

your experience would be what?

A. Communication between organizations at the same level.

Q. Or parts of an organization?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

197

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Correct.

Q. And what is the heading of the next section? 

A. "Communication between the general secretariat and work 

committees in the apparatus."

Q. All right. The word or words "general secretariat," 

where have we seen that before?

A. We have seen some early on. Agent Burns had some 

documents regarding the Muslim Brotherhood, regarding the 

Palestine Committee. We have seen that.

Q. All right. Is that a position within those 

organizations?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Underneath No. 2, do you see the entry for 2, there not 

the one underlined but it begins "instructions and 

follow-ups"? Just read that sentence there. 

A. Yes, sir. "Instructions and follow-ups are to be sent to 

the work committees in the various countries through the 

central communication point. Responses are to be received 

through the same points."

Q. The phrase "in the various countries," what if anything 

does that indicate to you about whether the organization that 

created this document has parts or members in other countries?

A. It indicates there are parts or members in other 

countries.

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, please, Mr. Lewis. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

198

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Before you do that, I am sorry, go back to page 15.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) The heading at the bottom of the page 

beginning with No. 3 and then "A" below that, what are those 

headings?

A. "Fields communication between various institutions; A, 

mail correspondence."

Q. And then there is No. 1 and 2 shown there. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And would you look at item No. 4 under 

"mail correspondence"?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Read that, please. 

A. No. 4 states, "Camouflaging the contents".

Q. Do you see item No. 6 there? What is the policy for mail 

correspondence according to No. 6?

A. No. 6 states, "Using human couriers to transport 

important documents (traders, drivers.)"

Q. And the heading below that is entitled what, the section 

below the one you last read?

A. That would be "telephonic communication."

Q. What is the first policy or guideline under that 

particular heading?

A. No. 1 states, "Exposed individuals are not to contact 

unexposed individuals or vice versa from home phones, but from 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

199

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
public phones." 

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page, please. 

I am sorry, Jim. Would you go back? The bottom category, 

"communication via fax."

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you read the two policies No. 1 and 2 under the 

heading "communication via fax"?

A. "Documents from the private and very private categories 

are not to be faxed. No. 2, documents from the second 

category are to be faxed through a number of non-monitored 

machines, with attempts at encryption and intermittent 

faxing." 

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page, please, 

Mr. Lewis?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) The heading marked D reads what?

A. "Communication via live (human) points."

Q. The first policy under No. 1, read that, please. 

A. No. 1 states, "Assigning a live point of contact through 

which contact with unexposed individuals could be 

established."

Q. And item No. 5 under that as far as the policies for 

communication via live human points, read No. 5?

A. No. 5 states, "Coordinating with the maintenance 

committee and putting in place a covert monitoring system for 

the live points if possible."

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

200

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Covert means what?

A. Hidden.

Q. The heading entitled "basic security measures in 

communications," do you see that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you read item No. 3?

A. No. 3 states, "Not exposing parts of the work's 

administrative skeleton."

Q. And let me ask you, the next heading No. 4 is entitled 

what?

A. "Safety of relationships." 

Q. And the sub heading is entitled what?

A. "Relationship with the Administration." 

MR. JACKS: Move to the next page, if you would, Mr. 

Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And the second sub heading under "safety 

of relationships" is entitled what?

A. "Relationship with parties and movements.

Q. Would you look at item No. 7, the policy or guideline 

under that particular sub heading, and read that into the 

record?

A. Yes. Item No. 7 states, "Regarding unexposed 

individuals, caution should be practiced not to reveal true 

identity."

Q. Go down, if you would, to the heading D "media and 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

201

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
newspaper interviews." What is the policy or guideline No. 1 

under that sub heading?

A. No. 1 states, "An interview is not to take place unless 

preapproved by the concerned authority regarding the unexposed 

elements." 

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the next page, Mr. 

Lewis?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And what is the heading under item No. 5 

there? What area is it pertaining to?

A. "Travel and transportation safety."

Q. Item No. 2 under the policies and guidelines, would you 

please read that into the record?

A. Yes, sir. Item No. 2 states, "Providing a suitable cover 

for travel (commerce, tourism, visiting relatives), and 

supporting it with documents, commercial samples, catalogs, or 

tourist brochures. Also achieving this pretext in the visited 

country by taking tourist tours, making commercial meetings, 

or reaching bargains."

Q. Is there a reference to what to do with documents when 

you travel?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is under item No. 3?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just read item No. 3 and the three things underneath it. 

A. Item No. 3 states "Precaution regarding carried 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

202

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
documents. Not carrying what is not necessary.

"Hiding them good.

"Agreeing on a pretext in case they are discovered upon 

search."

Q. Would you go down to item No. 7 under "travel and 

transportation safety" and read that into the record, that 

policy or guideline?

A. Yes, sir. Item No. 7 states, "Not taking regular phone 

lists or phonebooks. Alternatives are writing only necessary 

phones for your trip on a piece of paper, writing them and 

dispersing them among your luggage or using phone 

organizers." 

MR. JACKS: Could you go to the next page and 

continue -- This is under "travel and transportation safety." 

And I would like to direct your attention to item No. 16 as a 

policy or guideline, and ask you to read that into the record. 

A. No. 16 states, "Attempting reservation and travel on safe 

Arab airlines or the ones with good relationship with the 

adversary (from the Middle East) such as Jordanian, Saudi 

Arabian, Kuwaiti."

Q. If you would go down to the heading No. 7 "safety of 

offices and firms."

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you see policy or guideline No. 2?

A. Yes, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

203

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Would you read that, please? And I think it continues 

one word on the next page so, if you will give Mr. Lewis time 

to turn the page.

A. Yes. No. 2 states, "Not using firms as places to keep 

work-related documents from the first and the second 

categories."

Q. Let me interrupt you there. When it talks about 

"documents from the first and second categories," and given 

the examination of this document and what is contained herein, 

what possibly could documents from the first and second 

categories be referring to? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection, Your Honor. He is asking 

him what possibly it could be. It calls for speculation.

THE COURT: He asked him based on the document. He 

may ask it. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question? Sorry.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Apparently it wasn't that clear. With 

that sentence that says, "Work-related documents from the 

first and the second categories," where it says "the first and 

the second categories," is there anything else in this 

document that sheds light on what this phrase "the first and 

the second categories" are talking about?

A. Yes, the appendix of this document.

Q. Which deals with what subject?

A. Document classification.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

204

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. All right. I interrupted you, so pick up from "the first 

and the second categories" and resume reading. 

A. Yes. "Not using firms as places to keep work-related 

documents from the first and the second categories. Documents 

from the third category are allowed if there is a convincing 

pretext for their presence."

Q. And would you read the policy or guideline No. 3 under 

"safety of offices and firms"?

A. Yes, sir. It reads, "Firms are to be used as covers 

which bring together members of the same committee. The 

nature of their commercial or employment relationship is to be 

ascribed according to the specialty of each member, as much as 

possible. (this relationship) is also to be used as a cover 

to contact firms or other committees."

Q. Policy No. 4, read that into the record. 

A. No. 4 states, "Technical supplies at the office have to 

be in harmony with the nature of the company or the foundation 

and with its financial standard."

Q. The reference to technical supplies being in harmony with 

the nature of the company, can you give an example of what 

would be something technical that would not be in harmony with 

the nature of a company; something that you can think of?

A. Yeah, maybe some communications equipment at a facility 

or an office that you would think would not need 

communications equipment.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

205

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. Let me ask you about talking about things being in 

harmony. Would you, given your involvement in this 

investigation, or just your experience in the world, would you 

think that this document that we are going through is in 

harmony with a charitable organization?

A. No, it is definitely not in harmony with a charitable 

organization, and in fact it is labeled as such with the No. 2 

on the very front which speaks to not supposed to be -- it is 

not supposed to be at the foundation. It is right there. It 

states it.

Q. All right. So going back, you are talking about the fact 

on the preceding page -- 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Lewis, if you would go back to page 

20 item No. 2 at the very bottom. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is that what you are talking about?

A. Right. No. 2 on the very front page of this document 

that we pointed out, it says here, "not using firms as places 

to keep work-related documents from the first and the second 

categories."

Q. Was this document found within the offices of the Holy 

Land Foundation?

A. No. It was found across the street at InfoCom.

MR. JACKS: Could you go back to the next page, 

Agent Lewis?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And this continues to talk about safety 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

206

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
and document issues. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Item No. 8 on the page in the middle, do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Read that into the record. 

A. No. 8 states, "Having a shredding machine at the offices 

to destroy documents which are justifiably present."

Q. Now, did you ever in the Holy Land Foundation closure or 

search, was there a shredding machine found, that you are 

aware of?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever see any evidence to indicate that they had 

acquired or used one?

A. Yes.

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, Mr. Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) This document or this page of the 

document bears what heading, No. 8?

A. "Safety of personal residences, work apartments, cars, 

and possessions."

Q. Item No. 1, the policy or guideline contained in item 

No. 1, read that, please. 

A. "Constant observation of any individuals or unusual 

phenomena in close neighbors and those around them."

Q. Go down to item No. 5 and read that, please, just the 

first sentence. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

207

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Yes, sir. "Using a specific suitable cover for the 

apartment (students cover, for instance.)"

Q. Item No. 6, what is the policy or guideline set forth 

there?

A. No. 6 states, "Avoiding use of the apartment by activists 

at the same time to avoid exposing it."

MR. JACKS: Would you go to the bottom of the page? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Agent Miranda, what is the policy or 

guideline set out in item No. 16?

A. No. 16 states, "Assuring the legal residence status of 

those who work at the different offices and institutions and 

not being subjects of previous legal problems." 

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, please.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And the heading "money safety," item No. 

9, do you see that, Agent Miranda?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. Do you see item No. 2 under that topic? What is the 

policy set forth next to item No. 2?

A. No. 2 states, "Transfers could be conducted between 

exposed individuals or between commercial firms. Other than 

that, it is done by cash delivery." 

Q. And the heading "hotel safety." It is item No. 11 or sub 

topic 11. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you look at policy No. 3 underneath "hotel safety" 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

208

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
and read that into the record? 

A. Yes, sir. No. 3 states, "Avoiding contacting unexposed 

individuals on the field from the room."

Q. And again, there is the reference to exposed and 

unexposed. Just generically, exposed means what?

A. The true nature of something.

Q. Unexposed would indicate what?

A. Hiding the true nature of something.

Q. Do you see item No. 6 under "hotel safety"?

A. No. 6 states, "Attempting to place the manager with a 

companion in the same room or in connecting rooms."

Q. Item No. 7?

A. "Occupying the room directly across from the manager's 

room for protection."

Q. And item No. 8?

A. "Thorough searching of the manager's room."

Q. Did you take this to mean the manager of the hotel?

A. No.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Would you go to page 25? I believe that 

is two pages, Mr. Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is this the part of this document that is 

the appendix or that is headed "documents classification, 

appendix"?

A. Yes, sir.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

209

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. And is there anything on there that would be consistent 

with its own document classification code?

A. Yes. There is the No. 2 in the upper left hand corner.

MR. JACKS: Could you enlarge that part of it, Mr. 

Lewis? Thank you. And zoom back out.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) The first sentence under the title of the 

document, would you please read that, Agent Miranda?

A. Yes. "Documents are to be classified into four 

categories: General, limited, private, and very private."

Q. Agent Miranda, I guess you have worked for the government 

your entire adult life. Is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. Does the government have a document 

classification index as it relates to the security of 

documents that it generates?

A. Yes, we do.

Q. Can you kind of walk us through the lower security and 

then the higher security that would be -- This talks about 

four categories. Can you give us about four categories that 

the government would use in its classification?

A. Sure. At the lowest category is going to be for official 

use only, then after that you are going to have confidential, 

then secret, and then, of course, top secret.

Q. And are there even sometimes documents that are above top 

secret?

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

210

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
A. Then there is different compartmentalizations; SCI, for 

example.

Q. Okay. But the four basic are limited official use, 

confidential, secret, and top secret?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Those are the four major categories of document 

classification?

A. That is correct.

Q. All right. And what are the four categories this 

document attempts to set up?

A. General, limited, private, and very private.

Q. And would those be from least secure to most secure, as 

you read them?

A. Yes.

Q. And item No. 1, then, on this list -- First of all, let 

me ask you, does it appear that this document has taken 

different types of documents and given them a general category 

that they are supposed to be put in or treated?

A. Right. It gives examples of the different categories of 

documentation.

Q. Just take the first one, item No. 1. What does it say 

and how is it supposed to be categorized?

A. No. 1 is "overall plans for over a year period suggested 

or approved, including budgets." And they have it listed as 

very private, which would correspond in the description I gave 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

211

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
as top secret.

Q. And just go down to item No. 7. Would you read what item 

No. 7 says and how that type of material is classified?

A. Yes. Item No. 7 states, "Reports about any incidents 

regarding individuals at level of head of a sector in a 

committee or higher. Very private."

Q. Item No. 11, what is the item and how is it classified?

A. Item No. 11 is "codes and passwords, very private." 

Q. Item No. 12?

A. No. 12, "Work-related computer disk. Very private." It 

is missing an E, but "very private."

Q. Item No. 13?

A. No. 13 states, "Reports related to matters which directly 

touch the country where the report is written. Very private."

Q. And it continues onto the next page with some other 

types. Is that correct?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Types of materials?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. JACKS: And if you go to the last page, please, 

Mr. Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And this summary just has 

categories -- It has the classification categories to the 

left?

A. Yes.

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

212

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Q. And columns for reviewing, copying, and temporary filing 

and how those documents are to be treated?

A. Correct, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Could you go to the first page of this 

exhibit, Mr. Lewis? I am sorry. The very first page of the 

Arabic version of the exhibit.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And do you see a number that can be seen 

on that exhibit, Agent Miranda, that would be consistent with 

this document classification category that is set out in the 

appendix?

A. Yes. If you will see to the left hand side of the 

document -- Not very far. If you can go down further, Jim. I 

will tell you when to stop. You can see the 2 off to the left 

hand side with the number sign by it.

Q. Also at the top, is there the number 2, does it appear 

near one of those smudges?

A. Yes. It is kind of tough to tell, but left of the big 

smudge there.

Q. All right. 

MR. JACKS: And just if you would, Mr. Lewis, kind 

of go through these pages. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And Agent Miranda, does the number 2 

reoccur on these various pages?

A. Yes, I see it there. I see it there.

Q. And that was there on the exhibit when it was seized. Is 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

213

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
that correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Go to the next page, Mr. Lewis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And you continue to see that 2 and then 

number sign? 

A. Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Go to page 8. Page 9. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you see it on page 9? 

A. Yes, upper left hand corner.

Q. And I believe that is it. 

These policies and guidelines that are set forth in this 

document, Agent Miranda, and the terminology that is used, the 

reference to exposed, unexposed, and just the wording in 

general, in your experience either in the military or with the 

FBI, have you seen similar type terminology in documents that 

relate to security? 

A. I have.

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. He is not an 

expert and I don't -- I think it goes back to the Mejia issue 

I raised earlier.

THE COURT: Overruled. He asked him based on his 

experience. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Just to cover it again, when you were in 

the Air Force, what was your -- You said you were in OSI, 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

214

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
which stands for what?

A. I was a special agent for the Air Force Office of Special 

Investigations.

Q. What area did you -- were you involved in investigating?

A. Counterintelligence and counterterrorism primarily.

Q. And the groups that -- Whether it was in the FBI or 

within the Air Force, did you see these types of documents 

that were used by groups or organizations?

A. Yes.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can we approach?

THE COURT: Yes. Come on up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. DRATEL: I thought we were keeping other groups 

out of this trial. This is where we are headed right now with 

this question. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, I am going to ask him, you know, 

what types of groups use these, and they are terrorist groups, 

organized crime groups, and intelligence agencies use this 

type of terminology and language, and that is just going to be 

his answer. 

MR. DRATEL: It is -- 

MR. JACKS: He is not going to name Al-Qeada or 

anything else.

MR. DRATEL: That is what this is all about, the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

215

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
inference without the name. It is just way beyond what he is 

supposed to do.

MS. HOLLANDER: He is also not an expert witness and 

no notice that he is going to give expert testimony.

THE COURT: He is not doing it as an expert. He is 

asking his experience in the FBI and the Air Force.

MR. DRATEL: That is exactly what the Mejia case 

says he shouldn't be doing.

MR. JACKS: The Mejia case had to do with 

interpreting evidence, and he is giving -- 

MS. CADEDDU: My objection is the same thing. He 

hasn't been qualified as an expert. We haven't been given 

notice as an expert, and this is basically an agent testifying 

as an expert. The Fifth Circuit has warned against it. The 

Second Circuit just reversed a conviction based on it. 

THE COURT: I think you are -- Interpreting 

evidence, that is a different matter than testifying based on 

experience. I have a bit of a concern -- Organized crime, as 

you start getting into -- 

MR. JACKS: Terrorist groups are okay? 

THE COURT: That is what this is about.

MR. JACKS: I understand. I agree with you in that 

regard. 

THE COURT: And what else is he going to say? He 

said the military, the government. 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

216

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
MR. JACKS: What did he say? Intelligence agencies 

used this type of terminology.

Your Honor, I will just move on.

THE COURT: Okay. It sounds good. 

How much longer do you expect to be in this topic? He 

says he is going to move on. 

MR. JACKS: I am almost -- No, I have got maybe 30 

or 45 more minutes, and obviously I would prefer not to pass 

him, but --

THE COURT: We won't be here that much longer. 

MR. JACKS: If I could go back and look at my notes, 

I may be at a stopping point.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: You know, because I think I was going 

to -- I have gotten sub topics that I was going to go into, so 

I may be about to go into one.

THE COURT: Okay. Just let me know when you are at 

a good breaking point, then. 

MR. JONAS: This is the case decided by the Second 

Circuit which discusses testifying as experts, which Mr. 

Miranda has not been qualified as, and I don't think it is an 

appropriate --

THE COURT: And I haven't read it, but I will take a 

look at it. 

MR. DRATEL: My position would be there is no 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

217

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
functional difference between what is improper here and what 

they are trying to do here, whether he is an expert qualified 

or not.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

MR. JACKS: Your honor, that is -- In reviewing my 

notes, that was my final question on this topic, so I was 

going to be moving to another sub topic of this part, so if 

the Court would like to stop.

THE COURT: All right. Let's go ahead and break 

here for the day. 

Be back at 9:00 tomorrow morning. Please recall the 

instructions we have gone over. See you back in the morning. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Anything we need to address before we 

leave? 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, the Simon motion, I think 

we can save the Government some money and not have him fly 

here tomorrow by precluding him today based on that motion. 

The only thing I would add to my papers, by the way, Your 

Honor, is the Al-Moayad case that obviously we have cited in 

other pleadings. The focus is on in terms of trying to 

maintain an evidentiary threshold. That is what is relevant 

to the charges and what is relevant to the case. And I think 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

218

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
we have set forth in our motion obviously this particular type 

of testimony for why the statute is enacted. It is really 

unprecedented in a criminal case. It is sort of off limits 

for everybody and I think Al-Moayad would reaffirm that and 

make it even stronger.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? Are you intending -- 

Ms. Shapiro, this is your witness. Are you intending on 

getting into why the statute was enacted? 

MS. SHAPIRO: Not exactly. First of all, Mr. Simon, 

he is a very short witness. He was actually meant to testify 

on the afternoon of Judge Sanders' memorial service, so we 

meant for him to go a little earlier in the case. He is going 

to talk about the foreign policy and military and economic 

reasons that animated the executive order that is at issue 

here. 

And the reason that that is relevant is because it is 

important for the jury to understand why the United States has 

an interest here. A terrorist organization has a focus on a 

geographic region that is far away from the United States, and 

it is important for them to be able to tie the concerns that 

animated the designation of Hamas so that they understand why 

this case is relevant to them. 

MR. JACKS: May I have a moment, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Sure. 

Everybody can have a seat. We are in recess, so you can 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

219

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
leave in you want to, or you are free to stay. But you may 

have a seat.

MR. WESTFALL: But not the lawyers? 

THE COURT: Not the lawyers. Well, you can leave. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Essentially the jury, this whole 

subject matter is foreign to them. Literally, it is outside 

their normal experience and it is far away. So basically what 

this witness does very briefly is to explain the relevance of 

it, and it is not uncommon or unprecedented that somebody will 

explain the context of a matter or of a law. And in fact we 

cited in our opposition to Mr. Dratel's motion we cited a case 

where -- I think it was the Lybian Sanctions case where 

somebody did exactly that--explained the context behind a 

designation, an expert designation. 

So it is neither unprecedented nor unusual, and it is 

necessary for the jury to be able to tie it back to their 

common experience. And in fact I believe in voir dire we 

actually had a juror ask the question about why this is 

happening here. And that is directly relevant to I think what 

jurors might ask themselves about why this case that takes 

place overseas, why it concerns the United States. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, that sounds like a much 

longer version of why the statute was passed. That is one. 

Two, the case that the Government cites I think we 

address in our reply which is a totally different case with a 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

220

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
totally different focus. So I am not going to get into the 

detail. 

But the third thing is that this is really reverse juror 

nullification. And, you know, so I don't think it is proper. 

And I think Mr. Cline has something to add as well. 

MR. CLINE: I would just sum up the argument like 

this. The law is the law, and why the law was enacted is 

totally irrelevant. 

THE COURT: And generally that is true. I mean, the 

jury is under an obligation, we have told them in voir dire 

and we will tell them again in the instructions, that they 

have to follow the law. It is not their place to question. 

So I am struggling somewhat with the relevance of that. That 

is not something we normally get into in any law is why, 

because we are all obligated to follow it. We are supposed to 

follow it and so is the jury. 

Let me take a look at that further, and I will let you 

know first thing in the morning.

MS. SHAPIRO: I would simply add to that, the case 

we cited, the First Circuit case I believe is directly on 

point. I think if Your Honor looks at that case it will --

THE COURT: I haven't looked at that. I intended to 

after reading the briefs. So I will take a look at that.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, we are precluded from 

challenging the designation or the reasons behind the 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

221

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
designation, and because we are and we know we are and the law 

says we are, it seems fundamentally unfair for them to bring a 

witness to talk about the reasons behind the designation and 

things that we couldn't challenge. And it is like bringing 

somebody after -- in a murder case bringing somebody in to 

talk about why murder is so bad, you know, as a witness. It 

is unheard of, Your Honor. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, Mr. Westfall couldn't have 

made my point better--that everybody understands murder and 

why it is against the law, so you don't have to do that. 

These jurors have, I guarantee you, had no clue what an 

executive order was, a specially designated terrorist, the 

Middle East peace process, and that is what makes this case 

unique and why it is necessary to educate them and to help 

them to understand the process. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, Doctor Levitt actually 

defined most of those terms and talked about them it is a 

cumulative aspect as well. 

Just, I mean, in terms of the case that the Government 

cited, obviously we addressed that in our reply and I won't go 

into that any further. But all of the aspects of this, No. 1, 

the preclusion on our side, the fact that there is no basis 

for why a statute is on the books, Mr. Cline's position to the 

Court acknowledged, and what the Court has said as well, I 

think they all go to the fact that this is a witness who is 

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

222

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
irrelevant and cumulative, if there is any marginal relevance, 

which there isn't. 

So I think on all those grounds it would be something 

that this Court should preclude. Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall, did you have anything?

MR. WESTFALL: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 9:00 in the 

morning. Why don't you be here about 8:45. I will let you 

know of my ruling on this.

(End of day.)

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

223

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts 06/05/2009

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

224

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25