IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( OCTOBER 3, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 13 OF 37

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STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

 COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 (214) 753-2349

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INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

LARA BURNS

Direct By MR. JONAS............................................. 36

Cross By MS. HOLLANDER.......................................... 87

Cross By MR. WESTFALL........................................... 136

Cross By MS. CADEDDU............................................ 195

Defendant Exhibits

Defendant Exhibits Page

No. 161 Admitted into Evidence 12

No. 1334 Admitted into Evidence 55

Secretary of State New Jersey 1 Admitted into Evidence 141

No. 204, 1016 Admitted into Evidence 147

No. 491, 750, 1005 Admitted into Evidence 165

No. 1350 Admitted into Evidence 172

No. 979, 984 Admitted into Evidence 189

No. 490 Admitted into Evidence 192

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THE COURT: Good morning. All right. Let's take up 

these objections.

Who is going to be speaking on behalf of the Defense? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I think it depends.

THE COURT: On the exhibit? 

MS. HOLLANDER: On the exhibit.

THE COURT: Okay. Let's start off with No. 94. We 

have a hearsay objection. Who wants to address that? 

MS. MORENO: Is that U.N. resolution 799.

MS. HOLLANDER: I believe so. 

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, I would ask you not to rule 

on this. This is just a mistake.

THE COURT: It won't come in through Agent Burns? 

MS. MORENO: No. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I think what happened 

was we sent the Government an initial list and then we changed 

our cross.

THE COURT: That is fine. Let's go ahead and get on 

to the other ones. We have No. 161 and No. 164. 

MS. HOLLANDER: No. 161 is -- 

THE COURT: That is the one from the mayor of San 

Diego.

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes. And No. 164, the Kosovo 

agreement. 

Your Honor, these all came from the Holy Land files. 

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Some of them don't have the Holy Land bates number stamps on 

them because -- And I think all but San Diego actually have an 

FBI bates number on them. 

What happened was my law firm represented Holy Land in 

the civil case designation, and back in 2002 and 2003 we sent 

people to the FBI to search for documents. At that time our 

clients couldn't join us. It is all licensing issues. We had 

no interpreters. We mostly searched for English documents. 

And we brought them back. 

The FBI knows every document we took because Lara Burns 

was involved with that. There is no document that we copied 

that the FBI didn't know about, but it was before we bates 

stamped them, so the Government knows these documents came 

from their files. 

They are obvious on their face that they came from their 

files, and, I mean, if there is a problem, I will have my 

partner Zachrey Ives come and explain to the Court the 

procedure. But it really -- they are Holy Land documents. On 

the face they are Holy Land documents. If there is any issue, 

it simply goes to weight. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, as to that issue, 

Ms. Hollander is correct in the sense that her law firm came, 

and I think it was in the spring of 2002, and scanned or 

photocopied a lot of documents, and it was before the FBI had 

been able to bates stamp the documents with their bates stamp. 

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The bates stamp on this document I am assuming was put there 

by Ms. Hollander's law firm, and it is FBI -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: That is correct.

MR. JACKS: -- and then a series of numbers. Well, 

we later bates stamped all the documents and then forwarded 

those documents to the Defendants, and for some reason, and I 

am not sure why, rather than going and finding that document 

with the FBI bates stamp on it, they used this copy that has 

their own bates stamp on it. 

And obviously Agent Burns cannot authenticate this 

document. If they want to put it in through a different 

witness, then that is something else, but she didn't memorize 

all these documents, so she relies on the bates stamp to be 

able to testify that that came from the Holy Land documents. 

And they have copies of these documents with the FBI bates 

stamp on them.

Now, beyond just the source of the documents and the 

authentication, of course, we still object on the grounds of 

hearsay and relevancy.

THE COURT: The hearsay, do you have the original 

documents, the FBI? Is that what you seized? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes. They have the originals.

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: I mean, through self-authentication. 

Certainly the second one, No. 164, that is a foreign 

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government record? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I think that is right.

MR. WESTFALL: No. 164 is an agreement between 

several parties to provide relief to Kosovo.

THE COURT: That is right. Catholic Relief Services 

and Holy Land and some others. Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: And we do have the one with the HLDL 

number on it. In fact, my client was one of the signatories 

to that. So to the standpoint of hearsay it really kind of 

goes to the state of mind not only of him but to charity, 

because it is not aid to Palestine. It is not money to 

Palestine.

THE COURT: What about the authentication issue?

MR. WESTFALL: Well, I have seen the one with the 

HLDL number a number of times, and I know I can probably find 

it in about five minutes since it has to do with my client. I 

am sure it is in the computer. 

The one -- nancy was intending to introduce this, and I 

guess she used that one with the FBI number. But I can have 

the HLDL one immediately almost, if that will solve the issue.

THE COURT: No. 161 appears to be 

self-authenticating if you have the original. That is from 

the mayor. It has a seal. I think that satisfies 902 as far 

as self-authentication, if that is the one I am thinking 

about. Some kind of commendation from the major of San Diego.

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MS. HOLLANDER: That is No. 161. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I don't know what the 

certification is. 

THE COURT: The copy I saw, it looks to have the 

seal. Of course you have the original. You should be able to 

tell on that whether that appears to be -- 

MR. JACKS: I don't know where to find the original, 

Your Honor. It doesn't have a bates number on it. So out of 

millions of pages of documents, I wouldn't be able to -- 

THE COURT: You wouldn't be able to find it very 

quickly? 

MR. JACKS: Right.

MS. HOLLANDER: If they can't find it, I can 

guarantee you some of the reason we are using some of the FBI 

documents is we have trouble finding anything. We don't have 

access to the FBI files unless we go to the FBI office and 

search -- all of these were moved in different boxes from the 

way we originally looked at them in the designation. So we 

have to use the ones that we got. I mean, it takes hours and 

hours and hours to find anything on this hard drive. 

There is no question that these came from the Holy Land 

files, that they go directly to showing our clients' intent, 

our clients' charitable work. The Government has said 

directly several times that this is a purported charity. 

Agent Burns talked about how little money we spent in foreign 

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countries and in this country. And I mean, if anything there 

is a weight issue, but there is just really not an issue about 

where these documents came from. There shouldn't be an issue 

with this. 

THE COURT: Anything else on that, Mr. Jacks, on 

those two, No. 161 and 164? 

MR. JACKS: I think we are talking about two or 

three different things. There is authenticity and there is 

hearsay and relevance. And --

THE COURT: Well, the hearsay, the public document I 

think would come under 803(8) if the authentication issue is 

resolved, and it is a public document so that would seem to 

take care of that. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I don't think it has been 

shown to be a public document.

THE COURT: If you have the original I think we can 

tell. It appears to be.

MR. JACKS: I don't know, Your Honor, because my 

understanding of the certification is you get something from 

the issuing authority and they say, "This is a document we 

issued."

THE COURT: But a document under seal I think is one 

of the ways -- a public government document under seal is 

self-authenticating. And you have the original. And you tell 

me you can't find it, so I am going to hold that against you. 

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The copy seems to be authentic, just from what I see there. 

So unless you can point to some way that it isn't or some 

reason it isn't, the way to determine that -- In my notes I 

have look at the original and we should be able to tell fairly 

easily. But if you can't produce the original and you have 

it, well then -- 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, with regard to this one, I 

am going to withdraw the objection. I will just withdraw the 

objection.

THE COURT: If it is self-authenticating and it is 

what it purports to be, also that comes in within a hearsay 

exception. The only other would be relevance, but I think 

those come in for the Defense, No. 161 and 164. Those 

objections are overruled.

MR. JACKS: I am sorry, Judge? 

THE COURT: No. 161 and 164. 

MR. JACKS: No. 164 I don't think has -- That it is 

not a public document.

THE COURT: What is that? 

MR. JACKS: It is some agreement for the production 

of bread for Kosovo refugees.

THE COURT: Right. 

MR. JACKS: And it is not -- It is hearsay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, it is signed by one of 

the Defendants.

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THE COURT: I understand that. I think you might be 

able to establish it as a business record or some other way, 

but I don't think the agent can do that. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, it comes in at this 

point because it is relevant to exactly what she said. She 

said -- 

THE COURT: But Ms. Hollander, you keep confusing 

relevance with getting it in properly, and we have been down 

this road before. It doesn't come in simply because it is 

relevant. They have a hearsay objection. It appears to be 

hearsay. You have to have somebody to authenticate it as a 

business record. No. 161 is self-authenticating. And once 

you do that it also takes care of the hearsay objection. 

How do you take care of the hearsay and authentication 

problems with No. 164 other than it is relevant? That doesn't 

take care of it, so tell me how you take care of those 

objections.

MS. HOLLANDER: It also goes to the intent of our 

clients.

THE COURT: And you still haven't answered my 

question.

MS. HOLLANDER: Then if comes in under their intent 

then it is not hearsay. It comes in to show the work that 

Holy Land -- 

THE COURT: But you are still offering it for the 

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truth. I think it is hearsay as to you. You can't offer -- 

It may not be hearsay as to the opponent. They may be able to 

get it in, but you can't get your own statements in unless you 

have some hearsay exception. And you are offering it for the 

truth, that this is what they do, that they are doing this 

kind of work. So I don't think that will get you there. You 

have to get it in under a business record or some exception 

and you have to lay some predicate for that. Do you have a 

witness that can do that? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I believe that we do, Your Honor. 

You know, but we can bring it in -- I think it really does fit 

basically the business records exception.

THE COURT: And I think it might, but you still have 

to have a witness lay that foundation. I can't assume and 

speculate it. You have to have somebody do it. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Okay. 

THE COURT: So No. 161 is in. No. 164, the 

objection is sustained subject to authentication and hearsay 

exception, prove-up.

No. 174? 

MS. HOLLANDER: No. 174 is the same issue, Your 

Honor. This one has an FBI stamp on it. It is not the same 

issue as No. 164. 

THE COURT: This is that foreign ministry. This is 

the one I was actually thinking of earlier. This appears to 

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be from some type of the Turkish ministry.

MS. HOLLANDER: This was seized from the Holy Land 

office, and the Government's objection is it can't be 

authenticated. Once again, they know this was seized from 

their Holy Land. We simply are using the one that we found so 

as not to waste thousands of hours searching for the other 

copy. But that is their objection, and they know that that is 

where we got it. They have it in their files.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Even if it came from the Holy Land 

doesn't authenticate it and make it true. Someone could have 

been, you know, creating these on the computer. So it is not 

authenticated. 

THE COURT: And that is a problem with not having 

the original again here. If you had the original, you would 

be able to tell more about it in terms of does it in fact 

appear -- 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we have -- If they asked for 

the originals, we went and found them, and so it is not a 

matter of not being able to find them ever. It is just with 

this last minute notification. Previously when they have 

said, "We need the originals of these," we have located them 

and turned them over. 

THE COURT: So why would it take so long. I don't 

know what kind of system you have. Why would it take so long 

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to find it? 

MR. JACKS: I don't know, Your Honor. It may not.

THE COURT: I am going to withhold ruling on that 

and see if we can find that.

MR. WESTFALL: For the record, this Exhibit No. 174 

and everything up to about 1200 we didn't change the exhibit 

numbers in our exhibits. These were exhibits last time. And 

there is about 500 bankers boxes in the possession of the FBI, 

and that is all the originals.

On the standpoint of authentication, is it what it 

purports to be, and anything above and beyond that really kind 

of goes to weight. And this certainly purports to be a 

certificate from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

THE COURT: But it is a foreign document, and that 

can be a little trickier getting in a foreign document than 

one under a public seal under the rules. That is why I think 

I would rather see the original. I agree in looking at it 

that it appears to be, but the point is these things can be 

faked. Obviously somebody can make these. But if we see the 

original, I think if it satisfies that and purports to be, I 

am with you. I think it comes in. And it probably takes care 

of the hearsay as well. But that one, because it is a foreign 

document rather than a domestic document, I think I would want 

to see the original on that one.

MR. WESTFALL: And just from the standpoint of the 

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hearsay, Your Honor, these documents that have come in up to 

this point, it is the possession of those things that is being 

used against the Defendants.

THE COURT: Right. But by -- The opposing party can 

do that. It is a little different than when you are offering 

something that is hearsay for your benefit. The Government 

can offer it for intent easier than a party can offer it on 

their own behalf.

MR. WESTFALL: Once they raised that intent issue 

with the possession of the documents, what we seek to do is 

with the possession of the exact same types of documents, with 

the same bates numbers on them, to rebut that, to meet that.

THE COURT: Well, I don't know that that gets you 

there because of these objections that they are posing with 

these documents that purport to be from a foreign government. 

So I don't know that that gets you there, simply their being 

in their possession. I will withhold ruling on 174. 

That gets down to the photographs. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I think most of -- well, some of 

them are mine. Some are other people's. Some of them may 

be --

THE COURT: It is going to be the same objection? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, Your Honor, maybe it is. 

THE COURT: The Government has it lumped under one 

objection. 

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MS. HOLLANDER: It is under one objection. Right. 

These photographs, which also -- all of which, the ones that I 

plan to introduce, which is much smaller than that list, 

actually, and I don't know whether some of those are other 

people's or whether they are for later, which may be, they 

have Holy Land logo on them. There is no question about their 

authenticity. Several of them came in through the last trial. 

Can I show them to, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: I saw them. I have gone on your disk.

MS. HOLLANDER: They have people who Burns can 

identify who are Holy Land workers. They have the Holy Land 

logo -- 

THE COURT: I think those that have the Holy Land 

logo and she can identify individuals, I think those come in. 

MR. JACKS: Well, Your Honor, she hasn't been able 

to look at these.

THE COURT: They can show them to her and lay the 

predicate. If she can do that, they come in. That is what I 

am saying. If she can't, then you are going to have to lay a 

predicate some other way. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I mean, the ones that have the Holy 

Land logo are pretty obvious.

THE COURT: They are not obvious to me and not 

obvious to the jury. Just get Agent Burns to testify to that. 

Okay? I mean, some of them were, but I can't tell that. And 

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if she recognizes Holy Land employees -- That is not obvious 

to me or the jury. You still need to lay your predicate. 

If you can lay your predicate through her, I think they 

come in, if she recognizes Holy Land logo, employees, 

something like that. If you can't, then you are going to have 

to find some way to lay a predicate. 

MR. JACKS: My concern is all of a sudden if she 

says this photograph came from the Holy Land Foundation, "Yes 

that is their logo; yes, I recognize that person," then beyond 

that she doesn't know where they were taken, when they were 

taken, what was going on, my concern is that through their 

questions that the lawyers are going to try to inject and put 

before the jury some evidence about that beyond what Ms. Burns 

can provide. 

THE COURT: And that is certainly a valid point. 

Somebody want to address that? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I think that clearly 

goes to weight. It just clearly goes to weight. These are 

Holy Land projects, they come from the Holy Land office, they 

have the Holy Land logo on them.

THE COURT: Right. But once you -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: That is all I am going to do is I am 

going to show her these pictures, show these pictures to the 

jury to show that Holy Land is a charity, in direct response 

to the Government's case. We have to be able to meet the 

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Government's case.

THE COURT: I understand that. But you have to 

still lay your predicates. You can't just come in and start 

saying this is relevant so it is in. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I understand. But I think that 

Mr. Jacks' objections go to the weight, not the admissibility, 

because they are Holy Land photos found in the Holy Land files 

with the Holy Land logo on them, and they are projects that we 

can link. In other words, there is wheelchair projects and 

these are wheelchairs. There is a bakery project. There is 

no question about that. The Government knows that. There is 

a jillion documents on it. And there is a bakery and Holy 

Land workers that she can identify. I know she can.

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall?

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, just one point. I mean, 

we know that just because we get a photograph in we are not 

going to be able to tear off in a million different 

directions. I mean, we know that. And I don't think that 

putting a photograph in gives us the power to do that. 

I think that if she can recognize the people, I agree 

with the Court's ruling on that. If she can recognize the 

people or some other way to say this photograph more likely 

than not is what it purports to be, then, you know, I agree 

with the Court's ruling. 

But as per Mr. Jacks' concern, the rules of evidence 

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aren't going to allow us to do what Mr. Jacks is concerned 

about, and I doubt the Court would. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, they have been doing it. 

They did it in their opening statement. And there is no 

question that they could probably get these in if they had a 

witness that could provide the information, and for some 

reason they are reluctant to go that route. They want to put 

them in through Agent Burns. 

And as I said, she says -- Ms. Hollander says they are 

photos of a Holy Land project. There is nobody to say that.

THE COURT: I agree with that. But still if you can 

show through Agent Burns that there is a Holy Land logo or 

employees, something that connects it to the Holy Land, then I 

think I am going to consider that sufficient to lay your 

predicate. But I am not going to let you go and start trying 

to go beyond her knowledge in terms of what this is through 

your statements of "This is obviously a wheelchair." You can 

describe what the picture shows and just leave it at that. 

You are going to have to object -- If you think they are 

going beyond that, you have to object and I will rule on it at 

that time. 

MR. JACKS: May I assume, Your Honor, that the ones 

that don't have the logo are excluded? 

THE COURT: Yes. Well, and they can ask her and if 

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she can't identify anything then they haven't laid a predicate 

and they are not in. So I don't know which ones those are. I 

will let them ask the agent.

MR. JACKS: As long as they are not displayed to the 

jury on the screen.

THE COURT: Nothing should be displayed until it is 

admitted. Once we know it is admitted, those are in and we 

can go from there. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, the -- I just wanted to 

tell him, the photographs, I will just show her the ones that 

I am going to use. It doesn't apply -- some of these, and 

there is a large group here, and some aren't coming in now 

anyway. 

THE COURT: All right. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, there is particularly one I 

wanted to touch on that seems different. It is DX 1197. It 

has got -- The way the exhibit was delivered to us is there is 

a series of photographs on a rolling file, I guess. And taped 

underneath it with scotch tape is a caption describing what is 

supposed to be depicted in the picture. And I am assuming 

that was put there after the fact. 

THE COURT: Okay. And I don't remember. 

MR. JACKS: It is the one with the U-Haul truck and 

somebody typed underneath it and put the caption.

THE COURT: Do you have that, Ms. Hollander? 

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MS. HOLLANDER: I do.

THE COURT: Let me take a look at that. What about 

the caption? 

MS. HOLLANDER: This was the way it was in the Holy 

Land files, and I just printed it the way it was in the file 

the way the Government seized it. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: I would have to check and see. I have 

seen it, but I don't believe -- First of all, they weren't 

scanned and they weren't in this sequence like that. I will 

have to go back and look and see. But regardless, the caption 

is certainly hearsay. 

THE COURT: What about that hearsay? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am sorry. He was telling me 

something.

THE COURT: He is objecting to hearsay as to the 

caption. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, again, I think that goes 

to the Government's argument of weight. It goes to show Holy 

Land's intent, what they were doing. It doesn't go to show 

even the truth, if they are objecting to it. But this is the 

way it was seized.

THE COURT: I understand. But I still think the 

caption is probably hearsay. I think the picture -- If she 

can identify the Holy Land employees, then the picture is 

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fine. But that caption is hearsay, and you are in fact, I 

think, offering it for the truth that that is what they were 

doing. I think that is why you are offering that statement, 

so I think it is hearsay.

MS. HOLLANDER: What I would like to do, Your Honor, 

is offer it through her with the caption covered, and then 

when we bring our witness in who can establish this as a 

business record, then we will uncover the caption.

THE COURT: I think if she can identify the Holy 

Land employees, well then -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: It has got Holy Land written on the 

side of the sticker.

THE COURT: That probably comes in without the 

caption until you can lay your predicate for that.

MS. HOLLANDER: If somebody has some of that white 

tape, we will put it over it before it goes to the jury.

THE COURT: And I have not looked at those DVDs and 

videos. Are you planning on getting into those today? 

MS. HOLLANDER: We are planning on showing one 

today, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Which one is that one? 

MS. HOLLANDER: That one is No. 1015. It is the 

tape "People in the Land." And it was admitted without 

objection in the last. 

THE COURT: I don't have a 1015 listed. 

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MS. HOLLANDER: I don't know. I gave it to Mr. 

Jacks last night. 

THE COURT: Okay. One of the new ones? 

MS. HOLLANDER: It has been on our exhibit list.

THE COURT: It may be, but I don't have it on the 

list that I asked you to provide. It is not there. Does 

somebody have it? The list I received from you as to the 

exhibits, it is not there. So the Government didn't object to 

it either. They don't have it on their list.

MS. HOLLANDER: We sent them another list last night 

with this one on it. 

THE COURT: And what is it about? 

MS. HOLLANDER: It is a documentary about Israel and 

Palestine that Holy Land used in its fundraising. 

THE COURT: I am going to have to take a look at 

that one.

MR. JACKS: Judge, it is a PBS documentary, and it 

is completely hearsay, and it is slanted toward the 

Palestinian side. And she says they used it in the 

fundraising. There is no evidence of that. Until somebody 

says that, then that threshold hasn't been crossed. But it is 

certainly hearsay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, the Government 

introduced a form fundraising letter yesterday. I believe it 

is Government's No. 95. I mean, Holy Land Search No. 95. I 

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believe that it is a form letter signed by Shukri Abu Baker. 

You know, it comes with the Holy Land ads, requests for funds, 

and it specifically says in the letter that the Government 

introduced, "A remarkable video of the current situation in 

Palestine produced by Tom Hayes, an American journalist, will 

leave you breathless." 

The Government found the documentary by Tom Hayes in the 

Holy Land search. That is how we got it because the 

Government found it. It is used for fundraising. It is not 

being offered for the truth. It is being offered to show the 

Holy Land's intent, how they raised money. The Government 

has --

THE COURT: And I have not seen that. I am not 

going to let you get into it until I see it. It wasn't 

provided in what I have, so you are just going to have to -- I 

will try to take a look at it over the lunch hour. 

How long is it? 

MS. HOLLANDER: What we did, Your Honor -- It is 

about I think an hour and a half video, but we made last night 

about a 15-minute clip of it.

THE COURT: Let me take a look at that over the 

lunch hour. Just give that to Jennifer or Brenda there. 

MS. HOLLANDER: But the purpose, Your Honor, is 

strictly to show our clients' intent. The Government has 

introduced this letter and has also introduced various 

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fundraising activities that Holy Land did. And this was a 

fundraising activity that Holy Land did that they didn't show 

the jury. 

THE COURT: All right. Okay. And of course, the 

difference that I see, the ones that the Government showed 

mostly involve Holy Land. This is some documentary by some 

other third party. Is that what you are saying? A PBS 

documentary? That is a concern I am having with the hearsay.

MS. HOLLANDER: It is not being offered for the 

truth so it is not hearsay. I mean, it is not being -- 

THE COURT: I think I have to disagree with you 

again on this one, Ms. Hollander. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I mean, it is offered to show -- The 

Government has talked about how they raise money, and this is 

how they raised money. I mean, the Government opened the door 

to every bit of this with their videos.

THE COURT: I think opening the door to something 

being relevant, again, going back to that, that doesn't create 

an exception to the hearsay rule. That is the concern I have 

with that. 

MR. DRATEL: The Government focused, particularly 

with respect to the letter and the fundraising matters, the 

letters coming from people and what went back out, this is 

referring to that. 

They talk about Holy Land's message. This is Holy Land's 

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message. It is not going for the truth. It is going to what 

is Holy Land's message, regardless of whether it is true or 

not. And that goes to intent, state of mind, all the things 

that are exceptions to the hearsay rule and would make this 

admissible. 

Thank you.

MS. HOLLANDER: And they are the ones who introduced 

this letter, and it is right in the letter.

THE COURT: Okay. I will take a look at that. I 

still don't think that does away with the hearsay, but I will 

look at that in light of the arguments you are making.

That is the only one you are planning on getting into 

today? 

MS. HOLLANDER: It is the only one I am planning on 

getting into. I don't know if anybody else is planning on 

showing any videos.

THE COURT: So what is the number of this one? 

MS. HOLLANDER: No. 1015. 

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Mr. Jacks, what about 

that argument that this goes to intent, state of mind, rather 

than -- 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, there is no evidence that 

this is indicative or reflective of their state of mind. If 

someone were to take the witness stand and say something, that 

might get them there, if one of the Defendants were to say 

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this is indicative of that, but out-of-court statements to 

show a person's state of mind, a Defendant's state of mind, is 

a very narrow exception and it has to be almost simultaneous 

with the event or the other statement that is being looked at. 

So just to broadly say that everything that was found at the 

Holy Land Foundation shows their state of mind is not an 

exception to the hearsay rule.

MR. DRATEL: Two things. I don't think the rule -- 

The rule does not distinguish between defendants and 

non-defendants with respect to state of mind, and I don't 

think the case law does either. But even notwithstanding 

that, even if that were the rule, there is a simultaneous. 

That letter shows that it is their state of mind because they 

are using that to fundraise. They are saying, "Watch this."

THE COURT: The problem I am having, this is a 

statement, out-of-court statement, and it is what -- they have 

introduced this letter from Mr. Baker and the HLF tapes. That 

is their statements and so that is what takes it out of the 

hearsay. You don't have that here. You are trying to offer 

something by PBS.

MR. DRATEL: But it is not for the truth. It is to 

show -- They are talking about Holy Land's message. They are 

suggesting that because these letters are coming back about 

jihad and all these other things -- 

THE COURT: But this is somebody else's statement as 

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to what Holy Land was doing, see.

MR. DRATEL: But it is Holy Land's message. It is 

not for the truth. It is to show what they tried -- how they 

tried to raise money. Mr. Abu Baker says -- You know, they 

have Holy Land sending books to people that were not written 

by Holy Land. I mean, we have an entire trove of things -- 

THE COURT: But they adopted them by sending out.

MR. DRATEL: And they adopted this by sending it 

out.

THE COURT: But you are offering your own client's 

statements. What I am saying, it comes in -- you are still 

offering your own client's statement to show this state of 

mind out of court. That is not the same as the opposing party 

offering it against an opposing party.

MR. DRATEL: I think it is. I don't think the cases 

make any distinction that hearsay from a defendant for state 

of mind is still an exception to the hearsay rule. It does 

not -- And there are cases that I can find for the Court that 

are legion on that.

THE COURT: You might want to work on finding those 

legion cases, then.

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I just want to clarify one 

thing, if I may. The letter that Ms. Hollander is referring 

to that says, "Here, hear watch," the Government introduced it 

yesterday.

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THE COURT: Right. But it is a letter from 

Mr. Baker.

MS. CADEDDU: It is already in evidence.

THE COURT: It is in evidence, but that still 

doesn't open up everything -- In terms of opening up an area 

for relevance is what I am saying, it doesn't do away with the 

hearsay exceptions. You still have to -- It may open up an 

area for questioning, but you still have to satisfy the rules 

of evidence in getting evidence in. We have a hearsay 

objection. That is what I am dealing with. 

I don't want to spend too much time on this. We are 

already late with the jury.

MS. CADEDDU: Can I just ask, you said it is your 

client's statement that is hearsay, and I understood you to 

say the statement in the letter, which is already in. 

THE COURT: Not the statement. The letter is in, 

but now we are going to a further statement.

MS. CADEDDU: But that is not the statement of the 

Defendants. That is something they sent out for fundraising, 

so it is not their statement.

THE COURT: It is a third party statement is the 

point I am making. At the time the letter came in, that was 

the Defendant's statement from the Government's perspective. 

I don't want to spend too much time on this. We will get 

back on it. 

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All right. One last word? 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Just since we are on it and it is in 

this context, yesterday, or earlier, the Government admitted a 

newspaper article to explain the meaning of the Defendants' 

conversation, you know the Hamas article in the Dallas Morning 

News. They put in this letter that was sent to Mr. Mahmoud 

and they gave a meaning to this letter. Well, this videotape 

is like the newspaper article that they put in.

THE COURT: I don't see it as the same, because the 

conversation quoted verbatim, which is the reason I let that 

newspaper article, it quoted virtually all of the substantial 

substantive portions of the that editorial. It was already 

in. This does not quote anything. It just refers to it by 

title. It is just not the same thing. 

And like I say, I have heard enough on that. We need to 

move on, because I don't want to keep this jury --

MR. WESTFALL: I don't anything on that, Your Honor, 

but there are a couple of other videos in there. I don't want 

to get lost in the shuffle.

THE COURT: I asked which ones we are going to get 

into today or this morning. Any others you are planning on 

getting into this morning? 

MR. WESTFALL: I am not going to be cross examining 

this morning.

THE COURT: Then we don't need to be worrying about 

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it.

MR. WESTFALL: Very well. Defense Exhibit No. 1013, 

this is that map. Is it a map of the West Bank? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I believe it is already in evidence.

THE COURT: I thought it was, maybe through Doctor 

Levitt. It seems like something like that came in. At least 

it was shown. I don't know if it is in evidence. 

MS. HOLLANDER: We moved it into evidence.

THE COURT: You might want to take a look at that. 

It has been shown.

No. 1019. Well, you said that has already been admitted. 

MR. JACKS: I don't understand the purpose of 

introducing it with a Defendants' sticker on it. And I didn't 

put them side by side to see if there was additional 

information put in there.

THE COURT: How are you getting this -- What is 

the -- You are wanting it with your own exhibit number? It is 

already in evidence. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Which one are you referring to?

THE COURT: No. 1019. 

MS. HOLLANDER: We are not using it, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You are withdrawing it? 

MS. HOLLANDER: For Burns at least. And No. 1013 

was admitted on the 23rd of September.

THE COURT: No. 1013 was admitted, that map? 

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MS. HOLLANDER: Yes.

THE COURT: So that will be admitted. 

No. 1020, progress report of victims' families? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I don't think we are using that. I 

can tell you, of the things I am putting in, the only ones 

they object to on theirs are -- 

THE COURT: We are almost through here. Who is 

putting in No. 1020? Who is offering that? It is on the 

list.

MR. MYSLIWIEC: This may have been one we put on in 

an abundance of caution, so I will defer on that one.

THE COURT: Okay. And then No. 1047, this amended 

declaration of Mr. Baker.

MS. HOLLANDER: That was just a total error.

THE COURT: You are withdrawing that one? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Because we have -- the corrected one 

is in evidence. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, there was a series before that.

THE COURT: Yes. I missed that. You are right. 

Those CAIR action alerts? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes. They are faxes to Mr. El-Mezain, 

just like the faxes they put in. They are designed, not for 

the truth, but to show the type of material that he received.

THE COURT: Why is that relevant? 

MR. DRATEL: They make it seem like his fax machine 

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was just all these -- Judge Fish let these in for this precise 

reason.

THE COURT: I don't see how they are relevant, so 

you have to convince me how they are relevant, not that Judge 

Fish let them in.

MR. DRATEL: I understand. But the relevance was to 

show they were received, to show other types of material he 

got on his fax machine. They are putting in one very narrow 

piece which are these IAP faxes.

THE COURT: Because it is relevant to the case. I 

wouldn't let them put in something that wasn't relevant, and 

the same rule applies to you. It has to be relevant.

MR. DRATEL: It is relevant. It is another 

organization that he gets material from that is similar. It 

is Islamic. It talks about issues that go on in the Islamic 

community. It shows the type of stuff that he gets by fax 

just by sitting there. It is not a question of him -- 

THE COURT: I am sure he gets a lot of things by 

fax, but it is not all relevant. 

Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: That is our point. Plus, what is 

contained within it is hearsay.

THE COURT: That is true. I will sustain the 

objection to those, No. 1023, 1025, 1029, 1030, and 1033. It 

is hearsay, as well, and I don't see those as relevant. 

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No. 1047 we have addressed. 

No. 1048, you say you may not have any objection. It is 

a passport. 

MR. JACKS: Correct, Your Honor. I am not sure -- I 

don't remember how that came -- Was it in the possession of 

the Government? 

MS. CADEDDU: That is another one of the ones -- Are 

we talking about Mr. Abdulqader's passport? That is one of 

the ones we put on two days ago because it was something I 

went through last time. It came in based on some testimony of 

Agent Burns that I don't know that she has given this time. 

So I don't know that it will come in. 

THE COURT: Okay. We can wait until we get there on 

that one, then. 

The last one that I show, next to the last one, No. 1057. 

It looks like a corrected translation. Who is offering that 

one? 

MS. HOLLANDER: We can withdraw that at this time.

THE COURT: Okay. And then No. 1069, some Wales and 

England committee finding on Interpal.

MS. HOLLANDER: That is not coming in at this time.

THE COURT: Okay. Withdrawing that one. 

My list that I had from you only went through No. 1320, 

exhibit No. 1320. So the last few that you have -- and there 

is some objections to those. I haven't seen them yet. I just 

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got the disk this morning, so I have to take a look at those.

MR. DRATEL: There were two that are on mine that I 

certainly won't be doing this morning.

THE COURT: Okay. We will deal with those later.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, there is one of mine. It 

is Defense Exhibit No. 1334, which I guess you do not have, 

but it is --

THE COURT: I have it now, but I just got the disk 

this morning when I got on the bench, so I haven't had the 

opportunity to look at that.

MS. MORENO: I don't think there is an objection 

from the Government. 

THE COURT: If there is no objection, you are all 

right. 

MS. MORENO: I just wanted to alert the Court.

THE COURT: The ones where there are objections, 

obviously I can't rule on them without seeing them.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, there are two that we 

have given the Government and added to our exhibit list, No. 

1336 and No. 1337. They are both documents involving the Holy 

Land wheelchair programs, and these are two of them again that 

bear the FBI stamps because they received them from Holy Land.

THE COURT: But I haven't seen them is the problem. 

I need to take a look at them. Those are disks that I got 

this morning, so I haven't had the opportunity to look at 

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them, and I don't want to make a ruling until I have seen 

them.

MS. HOLLANDER: I wanted to let you know their 

objection to those is that they -- 

THE COURT: That same issue we have been discussing. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Right. And I can assure the Court 

they came from the files. That is why we put the stamp on 

them.

MR. JACKS: We also objected on hearsay grounds.

THE COURT: I understand. That is why I want to 

look at them. I can't make that determination without seeing 

them. 

Anything else, then, on those issues before we bring the 

jury in? 

Are you ready, Mr. Jonas? 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Your Honor, I am going to be out for 

this morning.

THE COURT: All right.

Go ahead and bring in Agent Burns.

And go ahead and bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.) 

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed. 

Mr. Jonas.

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, good morning. 

A. Good morning.

Q. If you recall, yesterday we finished with you going 

through the financial schedules of payments between the Holy 

Land Foundation and certain zakat committees in the West Bank. 

Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. Are you going to be able to come back later in this trial 

and testify in greater detail regarding the relationship 

between the Holy Land Foundation and those zakat committees?

A. Yes, I am. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I pass the witness. 

THE COURT: And Ms. Moreno, I believe you stated you 

were first? 

MS. MORENO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Moreno: 

Q. Good morning. 

A. Good morning.

Q. How are you?

A. I am fine, thank you.

MS. MORENO: May it please the Court. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Agent Burns, you have been testifying 

for about a week now about a myriad of documents. Correct?

A. That is correct.

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Q. And let's see. You have described searches and bank 

accounts. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you have created PowerPoints for the jury based on 

underlying documentation?

A. That is correct.

Q. You have commented on videos and lectures. Correct? 

That you have found in the evidence?

A. That is correct.

Q. You have even read some poetry and identified certain 

pamphlets and certain journals for the jury. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Let's take a look in terms of the journals. 

MS. MORENO: And I am going to be using the elmo 

only, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) HLF Search No. 108. 

A. Okay.

Q. I am going to describe it to you. I am sure you will 

recognize it as soon as I put it on the elmo. First of all, 

do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. All right. And you recognize that as a journal that was 

seized, a copy of a journal that was seized from the Holy Land 

Foundation. Correct?

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A. That is correct. Can you scroll down so I can see which 

one it is? 

Q. It says, if you will accept my word, it says HLDL 111. 

A. Okay. What was the HLF search exhibit number? 

Q. No. 108. 

A. Okay.

Q. Do you remember seeing this document?

A. I do.

Q. It was admitted during your testimony. 

A. I do.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am sorry. Just real quick 

sidebar on this one issue regarding this. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, she is using a copy from the 

last trial. It has the old exhibit number on it. My only 

concern is that there were no -- We admitted a redacted 

version of this, and I wanted to make sure we are not going to 

get into pages that aren't admitted.

MS. MORENO: We aren't. 

MR. JONAS: Also I don't know if you want -- 

MS. MORENO: I will show you the exhibit so you can 

check on it.

MR. JONAS: No, I trust you. I just wanted to make 

sure there is no confusion, because you are asking her about 

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the exhibit number, and the number on the screen is different. 

And I am also concerned about reference to the prior trial.

MS. MORENO: Well, I said HLF Search No. 108, and 

she identified it, and then I directed her attention to the 

bates number seized from the Holy Land office. She identified 

that.

THE COURT: What is the exhibit number of this 

trial? Do you know?

MS. MORENO: HLF Exhibit No. 108.

THE COURT: What is on the screen is different. I 

think I was noticing that.

MR. JONAS: I want to make sure there is no 

confusion to the jury and that nothing comes out about the 

prior trial and page numbers -- 

MS. MORENO: Let me show you the exhibit.

MR. JONAS: I am not making any accusations. 

MS. MORENO: Okay. I know that.

MR. JACKS: Is there a reason we are not using a 

copy? 

MS. MORENO: I didn't have it for some reason. That 

is what I had. 

MR. JONAS: We can put it on the screen, if you 

want.

THE COURT: Well, let's go with this. Hopefully 

this won't be an issue, but let's see what happens.

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MS. HOLLANDER: I don't think there is any way the 

jury can identify this.

THE COURT: Probably not.

MS. MORENO: The whole document is in evidence.

MR. JACKS: But that is not the exhibit.

MS. HOLLANDER: That page is in your exhibit.

MR. JACKS: That item she is showing is not in 

evidence, not that version of it.

MS. MORENO: Yes, it is.

MR. JACKS: No, it is not. 

MR. JONAS: We will get the original, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Go ahead and pull the original.

MR. JONAS: And Ms. Moreno can use that.

MS. CADEDDU: The problem here is, as the Court told 

us, and we tried to prepare using the documents that we had 

before, we didn't get the Government's the CDs of any of their 

exhibits until the Friday before trial, so we have tried to 

prepare in advance, and we have done the best we can, and in 

some cases have the old exhibits. That is just by virtue of 

the fact that we don't have them.

MS. HOLLANDER: They didn't send their exhibits when 

they sent their list. We got them later, only after we asked 

for them.

MR. JONAS: It is very simple. Let's just use the 

one that is admitted.

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THE COURT: Do you want to use the one that is 

admitted? 

MS. HOLLANDER: It has that page on it.

MR. JONAS: It has the pages which is has been 

admitted, which is not the full version, and it also has the 

incorrect exhibit stickers. There is a simple solution. 

MS. MORENO: It has that first page, which Mr. Jacks 

says it does not.

MR. JACKS: I didn't say that. That first page has 

an exhibit sticker on it that is not in evidence.

THE COURT: That is what you were saying is not the 

same.

MR. JACKS: Right.

THE COURT: Okay. I took it like you took it.

MS. MORENO: That page is in evidence. We will use 

that exhibit.

THE COURT: You are just concerned about that 

sticker. All right. Okay. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

MS. MORENO: Can you pull up HLF Search No. 108, 

please? 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) I just want to talk about the exhibit. 

Okay. HLF Search No. 108. Do you see that?

A. I do.

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Q. Okay. I think that you read a particular page, the 

Government had you read a particular page from this exhibit, 

but let's take a look at the different articles. 

MS. MORENO: Can the jury see that? 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) This first page indicates Middle East 

Affairs Journal summer/fall 1996-1416. Do you see that?

A. Actually we can't see that. That part is not viewed on 

the screen. I saw it a second ago, but right now I don't 

think we can see that part. If you just move it a little bit 

it will -- 

MS. MORENO: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: Now we can see it. Thank you. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) All right. You agree with the date?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And the first article says, "Islamic Movements at 

the End of the 20th Century," does it not? 

A. It does.

Q. That is written by someone named Michael Collins Dunn. 

Correct?

A. That is what it says.

Q. The next says, "How Dangerous are the Islamists?" written 

by Nader Hashemi. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's take one last one. "Hamas' Military Operations: 

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Resistance or Terrorism?" by Khaled al-Hroub. Do you see 

that?

A. I do.

Q. All right. Now, if you turn to the next page, you see 

listed a board of advisory editors. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And on this board for this journal that was seized from 

the Holy Land, we see a number of names from some prestigious 

American universities. Correct?

A. There are names and universities listed, yes.

Q. Dr. William Zartman from Johns Hopkins University. Do 

you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Do you see Dr. Louis Cantori from the University of 

Maryland?

A. I do, on the right side.

Q. USA. Correct? 

Dr. Bruce Lawrence from Duke University USA. I am 

pointing to it. 

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And the very top Dr. John Entelis from 

Fordham University USA?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you agree with me that these are some of the more 

prestigious universities in the United States?

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A. I don't know how these universities are ranked, but they 

are universities in the United States.

Q. You have heard of Duke?

A. Yes.

Q. And heard of Fordham? 

A. I am not familiar with where Fordham is.

Q. And this is the board of advisory editors for this Middle 

East Affairs Journal. 

A. That is what it says.

Q. Right? And this is the document that you testified to?

A. That is correct. That came from the HLF search warrant.

Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that this is not the 

board of advisory editors for the Middle East Journal?

A. That is what the document says. I don't have any 

personal knowledge of whether or not these individuals 

actually sat on the board.

Q. Okay. Now, would it surprise you that in your testimony 

over the last week that you have actually discussed over a 

couple of hundred exhibits that were admitted?

A. That sounds about right.

Q. About 250, I think. 

A. I didn't count them, but that sounds about right. That 

wouldn't surprise me.

Q. We are not going to go through 250 exhibits.

A. Okay.

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Q. I am sure everyone is grateful for that. But I would 

like to go over some of the evidence that is unique to Mr. 

Elashi. 

A. Okay.

Q. And first I would like to begin with a volume of evidence 

to orient the jury on exactly how much we are talking about 

here.

I think you indicated that you have been on the case for 

the last seven or eight years; since 2001. Is that correct?

A. That is correct. Since December of 2001.

Q. You have described the search, the seizure of documents 

as filling 500 to 600 boxes. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you have observed perhaps not the content, but you 

have seen at least the number of thousands of videotapes in 

connection with this case. Correct?

A. Video and audiotapes, yes.

Q. Video and audiotapes. Thousands of them. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And some of the searches you were present for and some 

you were not present for. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And in fact, the investigation in this case was 

international in scope. Is that right?

A. Yes, it was.

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Q. It was in Europe. Correct?

A. I am not sure -- I want to be clear about what you are 

asking. The HLF had connections internationally. Therefore, 

our investigation inherently involved looking at individuals 

in other countries, but I am not sure what you are asking when 

you ask me specifically about Europe.

Q. Your investigation in this case was international in 

scope. Right?

A. I think I just said yes, we looked at their international 

connections.

Q. Germany. You looked at some evidence in Germany -- 

A. Yes. The HLF -- 

Q. -- in this case. Yes?

A. The HLF had connections in Germany.

Q. I think Sweden or the Netherlands or other places like 

that, and France. Correct?

A. I am not sure what you are -- I don't recall any 

investigation that we did in France.

Q. England?

A. Yes, we obtained records from England.

Q. Okay. But the biggest contributor of evidence from a 

foreign country in this case is the government of Israel. 

Correct?

A. We obtained a number of documents from the government of 

Israel. I don't know in comparison what the volume of that 

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would be compared to what we received from England, but I 

believe it was more.

Q. Would you say that the government of Israel, after the 

United States investigation, that the government of Israel 

documents that are going to be in this case surpassed the 

documents, in terms of volume, from any other country?

A. I believe that the number of foreign government exhibits 

that we are showing here today, that there are more of those 

from the government of Israel than from the other foreign 

countries.

Q. Okay. In fact, one of the first exhibits on the first 

day of this case was, do you know, Government of Israel No. 1? 

It was a videotape seized in Israel?

A. I am familiar with the videotape.

Q. Back to the volume a minute, Agent Burns. 

A. Okay.

Q. The Holy Land offices were searched in Texas, New Jersey, 

and California, and Chicago?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And then you -- Then the searches involved Mr. 

Elbarasse's home. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And Mr. Mushtaha's backyard?

A. That is correct.

Q. And Mr. Ashqar's home?

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A. That is correct.

Q. Any other searches I have left out?

A. The InfoCom.

Q. And the InfoCom searches. Correct. Thank you. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Any other searches?

A. I don't believe we discussed any other ones.

Q. Okay. And these documents and these videos that we have 

seen in this case and will see in this case are labeled by the 

FBI. Correct? Bates numbers, I think you called them. 

A. Yes. For the most part they have the bates numbers on 

them.

Q. And the bates numbers are also unique to the particular 

search, meaning the geographical location. 

A. That is correct.

Q. So for the Dallas search we would see HLDL. Right?

A. That is correct, on the bates number.

Q. And for New Jersey what would we see?

A. HLNK.

Q. And for San Diego, California what would we see?

A. HLSD.

Q. And for Chicago?

A. HLCG.

Q. And in terms of the searches for the documents and the 

evidence retrieved from InfoCom?

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A. Those begin with SW.

Q. And the Elbarasse searches?

A. I believe that is ISE-SW.

Q. And Mushtaha's backyard?

A. I don't believe -- Because most of those were videotapes, 

we didn't bates stamp videotapes.

Q. So I think -- Are those just labeled video or V something 

with a number?

A. I can't recall exactly how they were labeled, but we 

didn't bates stamp videotapes.

Q. Okay. Now, besides the searches, you had other tools for 

your investigation, including surveillance. Correct? That 

you have testified to?

A. That is correct.

Q. And before we get to that, let's talk a little bit about 

the wiretaps in this case, so we can be clear. How many years 

were the wiretaps in place?

A. Well, we have discussed a number of different wiretaps, 

and there were different times for each of those.

Q. Let's, instead of breaking it down like that, just give 

me a range from the very beginning of the first wiretap to the 

end of the last wiretap. What years are we talking about?

A. Well, again, as I said, there were different years for 

the different wiretaps, and I am not positive about the dates 

on all of them, but I will give you what I can. 

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I know that for the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain, 

coverage of his line began at some point in 1994 and extended, 

with gaps, through I think 2003. And the wiretaps of the 

Defendant Shukri Abu Baker started possibly '94, '95, and 

ended in approximately 2001. Again, I was not present during 

these, so I may have these dates a little off. But generally 

this is what my understanding is. 

For the Defendant Mufid Abdulqader, there were 

approximately eight months total of coverage, but there was a 

gap in a couple of months in that coverage. 

As far as the HLF, there was not extensive coverage of 

that entity. That I think began in 2000 or so and lasted for 

maybe until they were shut down.

Q. And Mr. Ashqar?

A. He was either the first or second wire -- He and Muin 

Shabib were covered in the very early years, so those were 

around 1993, 1994. They did not extend past 1995, I don't 

believe.

Q. So you think it was about a year for each of those, 

Ashqar and the Shabib?

A. Approximately.

Q. Okay. Now, it is true that my client Ghassan Elashi, he 

was never wiretapped. Correct?

A. He was captured on wiretaps, but he himself was not the 

subject of a FISA wiretap.

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Q. Meaning that his home was not wiretapped. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And so there are no FISA wiretap warrants for 

Ghassan Elashi in this case. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. All right. But you did capture him in conversations with 

others where the wiretaps were running?

A. Yes.

Q. And in fact, we have seen a couple of those already 

captured on Mr. Abu Baker's wiretaps. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. All right. The total amount of phone calls -- And I am 

going to include the Philadelphia meeting because Mr. Elashi's 

voice is heard there as well. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Would you agree with me that it is, in this case anyway, 

the number of phone calls where you will hear Mr. Elashi's 

voice, are under ten?

A. That we are presenting here today? I did not count them, 

so I don't know for sure how many he is in. I didn't count 

them.

Q. Does that figure sound right to you?

A. I would hate to guess on the stand so I would like to 

look through them. I am not saying you are wrong, but I have 

not counted them so I don't really have an idea how many he is 

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in, because I am not the only witness testifying.

Q. Right. But you are the case agent in this case. 

A. Right. But I didn't testify regarding all of the 

conversations that may include your client.

Q. Well, you read the FISAs. Right?

A. I did.

Q. Okay. In fact, you have read about 9600 summaries of 

FISAs. Correct?

A. That sounds about right.

Q. So you are familiar with the phone calls where Mr. Elashi 

is captured. Correct?

A. That is correct. But he was captured on a lot of calls. 

We are just playing a few.

Q. Right. Because you are using the calls that you believe 

are relevant to the crimes in this case. Right?

A. For efficiency purposes, we limited the amount of calls 

put here today so we all wouldn't be here for an extended 

period of time.

Q. So you are holding back on phone calls in this case?

A. I would not say that we are holding back on phone calls. 

You have all of them available to you. I think that they were 

all made available to you.

Q. You are putting into evidence in this case, Agent Burns, 

those phone calls where Mr. Elashi's voice is captured that 

you believe are relevant to this indictment. Correct?

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A. That is correct.

Q. The surveillance, you have got a couple of photographs of 

my client from the Philadelphia meeting. Correct? We saw a 

couple of those photographs.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And those photographs were taken about 15 

years ago. 

A. Yes; 1993.

Q. October 1993?

A. That is correct.

Q. Fifteen years this month. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And I think on a video that was played a few days 

ago, I think you pointed out Mr. Elashi walking out of the 

screen past the camera angle. Do you remember that?

A. I do. That was a 1990 festival in L.A.

Q. 1990 festival. Let's talk about some of the evidence in 

this case, and I am just going to break it down in terms of 

some documents and some bank accounts. 

A. Okay.

Q. First of all, you know what the designation dates are, 

which are highly relevant in this case. You have testified 

about those. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. All right. And January 23rd, 1995 is important why?

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A. That is the date that Hamas was designated as a specially 

designated terrorist.

Q. And October the 8th of 1997 is also significant. Why is 

that?

A. Because that is the date that Hamas was designated as a 

foreign terrorist organization.

Q. And on December the 4th of 2001, Holy Land ceased to 

operate. Do you agree?

A. Yes.

MS. MORENO: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) So do you see those dates?

A. I do.

Q. All right. 

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, I would like to offer into 

evidence Defense Exhibit No. 1334, which is a timeline labeled 

"time frame between Hamas designation and HLF closing." 

THE COURT: It is No. 1334? 

MS. MORENO: Yes, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MR. JONAS: No objection as a demonstrative.

THE COURT: I have it on the paper that you said no 

objection, so that is admitted. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Okay. One of the -- What I would like 

to do on the next number of exhibits is focus just simply on 

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the time, the time period of these documents, according to 

either what you have dated them to be by the content or what 

they have expressly indicated is the date. All right?

A. Okay.

MS. MORENO: And I am going to be using the elmo for 

all of these, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Let's start with Elbarasse Search No. 1. 

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And this particular document is dated November 9th, 1991. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And within it it discusses certain supplements, and those 

are dated, and they are all predated 1991. Correct?

A. They predate the November 1991 date.

Q. Right. And the first one starts, "Supplement No. 1, the 

substance of the long-term plan (1987)." Do you see that?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. So that is 1991. Now, remember the lecture that 

was played in Elbarasse Search No. 2? Do you see that?

A. I do. I think we actually read this one.

Q. You read portions of it. Do you recall?

A. I do.

Q. "Ikhwan in America, Zeid." Do you see that?

A. Yes.

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Q. Now, this is 1982. It was dated 1982. Do you recall 

testifying to that?

A. I believe that was it. I think we thought either 1982 or 

1983, but very early '80s.

Q. Elbarasse Search No. 3. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And I believe this was determined -- "Strategic 

goal for North America." And that was dated May 22, 1991. 

A. Correct.

Q. Now, Elbarasse Search No. 4, do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And this is a document dated December 18th, 1988. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Do you see that? 

Let's go to Elbarasse Search No. 5. Let me show you this 

sticker so you can see that. Yes?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And you remember testifying to all these Elbarasse 

search documents. Right?

A. I do.

Q. And this one is -- It says "Islamic Action for Palestine, 

an internal memo, October 1992." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Elbarasse Search No. 7. Do you see Elbarasse Search No. 

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7?

A. I do.

Q. This document, December of '91. Do you see that?

A. I believe -- Well, it is April 2nd, 1991 is the actual 

date.

Q. And then underneath it it says December?

A. It does. 

Q. April 21st, 1991, and then it says "outgoing #: 12/91"?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Now Elbarasse Search No. 8, you testified, and this 

involves Mr. Elashi. Let's talk about this a minute. 

Elbarasse Search No. 8. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And it says "Occupied Land Fund report." Correct?

A. It does.

Q. There is no date on this one. Do you recall?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. So we don't know when this was created. 

A. Based on the content of the document, you can determine 

it happened in 1991.

Q. '91. Okay. And I think you pointed out on page 6 "The 

Central Committee for charity work: 

"Brother Ghassan is currently on a visit to Britain 

representing the Fund in order to study the possibility of 

forming a Central Committee for charity work." Do you see 

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that?

A. I do.

Q. And I think you read that to the jury or you commented to 

the jury. 

A. Yes, we read it.

Q. Okay. And where did he go in Britain and who did he 

speak to?

A. Other than the content of the letter, I don't know. We 

did not have surveillance on that meeting so I don't know 

exactly with whom he met. It says the brothers. I would 

presume Muslim Brotherhood members in England to discuss, 

again, the creation of a Palestine Committee there just like 

the one here.

Q. Okay. So you presume that he went to England to meet 

with Muslim Brotherhood members. 

A. Based on the content of that. As I said, I do not know 

with whom he met.

Q. And you don't know if he even went to Britain, do you?

A. I think there are records that we don't have here that 

indicate that he did travel in 1991 there, but we have not 

discussed them here.

Q. And these are records that you have withheld from this 

case?

A. No, ma'am. I think you have all the records that are in 

our possession.

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Q. When did he go to Britain?

A. As I said just a minute ago, I am not sure exactly when 

he went and I don't know who he met with. This is their 

report.

Q. Are you sure that he went to Britain?

A. Based on their report he did, unless they lied in their 

report.

Q. When you say "their report," you mean?

A. The Holy Land Foundation, yes.

Q. Let's talk about Elbarasse Search No. 10 for a minute. 

You have referred to this chart a number of times. Do you see 

Elbarasse Search No. 10?

A. I do.

Q. And this is the Central Committee organization chart for 

the year 1991. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And let's go to page -- I think it says 7 of the 

document. And it has a number of names and different 

organizations. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And where is Mr. Elashi's name on this chart?

A. Ghassan Elashi's name is not on this document.

Q. It is not on this document. Let's go to the next page. 

Does Mr. Elashi's name appear there?

A. No, it does not.

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Q. But there is a Ghassan Dahduli there. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Who is Ghassan Dahduli?

A. He was one of the other attendees at the Philadelphia 

meeting who was also a member of the Palestinian Committee and 

worked with the IAP.

Q. Okay. Now, in fact, I think that you used this 

chart -- Let me get this right. You were asked about an 

individual Issam Al-Sarraj. Do you remember that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And you were asked a question about who he was, 

and you referred to this chart and you said there he is, No. 

21. There he is--Issam Al-Sarraj?

A. I recall pointing to his name, yes.

Q. But you used this chart as an indication of who these 

people were with respect to the committee. Correct?

A. This chart, the Ashqar one, and the Philadelphia meeting, 

yes.

Q. You used this chart to locate Mr. Al-Sarraj's name?

A. When asked about him, yes.

Q. When asked about him. All right. And this is the 

Central Committee organization chart. That is what it says. 

Right?

A. It does.

Q. Now, so far we have seen two people named Ghassan. 

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Correct? Ghassan Elashi and Ghassan Dahduli. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And both were at the Philadelphia meeting. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Ghassan Salah Dahduli, he gave a report at the 

Philadelphia meeting. Do you recall that?

A. He did.

Q. And Mr. Elashi did not give a report at the Philadelphia 

meeting. Do you recall?

A. He spoke during the Philadelphia meeting, but I do not 

recall that he recited a report.

Q. Right. So you don't recall that he gave a report. 

Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. So when the documents in this case refer to Ghassan, one 

has to look at the context to determine which Ghassan it is if 

the last name is not included. Would you agree?

A. If the last name is not there, then you need to look to 

the context to determine who is who.

Q. Okay. All right. Elbarasse Search No. 9. Do you see 

that, Agent Burns?

A. I do.

Q. And again, this is a 1991-1992 document, according to the 

document itself. 

A. That is correct.

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Q. Now, Elbarasse Search No. 11. Do you see that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And this is a 1989 internally dated document. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. All these documents thus far are years before the 

designation of Hamas. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Now, Elbarasse Search No. 13. Let me show it to 

you quickly. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And this one indicates it is an annual report dated '89 

to 1990. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Do you know who authored this particular document? Do 

you remember this document?

A. If you can turn to the next page, I believe this was the 

Palestinian Committee report which was authored by someone 

within the committee, but as I recall there is no author 

noted.

Q. Right. So we don't know who authored this report. 

A. We don't know the individual who actually drafted the 

document.

Q. Correct. We have Elbarasse Search No. 14. I am showing 

you the sticker.

A. I see that.

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Q. And this document refers to events "preparing work 

program for 1992," so we know it is 1992 or before. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, here is a document again that discusses my client, 

Elbarasse Search No. 15. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And this is dated February 22nd, 1991. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And then there is a number of items listed. Do you see 

that?

A. I do.

Q. Now, this says in No. 7 that "Mr. Elashi will commit to 

working four hours daily at the Fund as public relations 

supervisor in compensation for $1500 monthly." Correct?

A. It does.

Q. And then he is mentioned again in No. 10, "Brother 

Ghassan Elashi will pay $17,000 to the financial controller of 

the Central Committee." Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. There is no evidence that any of that happened with 

respect to Mr. Elashi that you have found. Correct?

A. I did not find records indicating that he received the 

money, but that is not determinative because I don't have all 

the records as they were dated.

Q. You have not seen any evidence that Mr. Elashi did any of 

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these things or received these amounts of money. 

A. I didn't find any checks for $1500 monthly, no.

Q. So that would be -- You didn't find any evidence of that. 

Correct?

A. That is what I said.

Q. Okay. Now, I think in your -- Mr. Jonas had you look at 

HLF Search No. 5. Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. And that is -- appears to be on Occupied Land Fund 

letterhead. Correct?

A. It does.

Q. All right. What is this in the center?

A. It is a symbol or their symbol of Palestine to include 

Israel.

Q. What is in the middle of that? Can you tell?

A. It looks like a plant, maybe wheat.

Q. Okay. And what is the -- Can you read what is in English 

under "the Occupied Land Fund"?

A. It says up on the top, "The parable of those who spend 

their possessions in the sake of God is that grain of 

which" -- I am having a hard time. I think that says 

"...grows seven ears in every year a hundred grains. For God 

gives manifold increase to whom He wills, and God cares for 

all and knows all things."

Q. Okay. And this is entitled "the board meeting minutes." 

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Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And this is dated the first meeting 1991 in Los Angeles, 

California. Correct?

A. Yes. It says February 16th through 18, 1991.

Q. Now, this document, Elbarasse Search No. 15--I just want 

to be clear that I am showing you the first page--this doesn't 

have a logo on it. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And it doesn't have that same parable that you 

just graciously read for us. Correct?

A. No, it doesn't.

Q. And in fact, it begins with this salutation "In the name 

of God the beneficent the merciful." Correct?

A. That is correct. It was actually, if you look at the 

last page, drafted by the Central Committee, "Your brothers, 

head of the Central Committee."

Q. I understand. And that salutation does not appear on the 

Occupied Land Fund board meeting. Right?

A. Not on the English version, no.

Q. And these are also pre-1995. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Let's go to Elbarasse Search No. 16 and 17. Now, this 

Elbarasse Search No. 16, this is also a 1990 document. 

Correct?

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A. Correct.

Q. Elbarasse Search No. 17. Let me first show it to you and 

then I want to ask you a little bit about it. This is a 

document that is signed or it is indicated the words Seven Up, 

and above it I says 7/20. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. When you were asked on direct who is Seven Up, you don't 

know who Seven Up is. 

A. No, I don't.

Q. So you don't know who authored this. 

A. You can tell it came from Hamas, but someone used a code 

word to sign his name so we don't know.

Q. And you can tell it came from Hamas because of the 

content that is why it came from Hamas?

A. Yes. You can see they are requesting $100,000 for pieces 

of metal for the Ezz Eddin al-Qassam Brigades.

Q. And we don't know who wrote this and who it was written 

to, according to this document?

A. As I said, I don't know the identity of the author.

Q. And you don't know who it was written to, according to 

the document. 

A. I know that it was found in a section of documents 

belonging to Mousa Abu Marzook in the Elbarasse search 

warrant.

Q. It was not found at the Holy Land Foundation. 

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A. That is correct.

Q. Or InfoCom. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, this, along with some other documents, make up your 

Demonstrative No. 8, I believe. 

A. I can't recall the number, but I will take your word for 

it on that one.

Q. Okay. And this involves the Islamic Relief Committee. 

A. It does.

Q. Correct? Your Demonstrative No. 8. Do you recall that 

now?

A. It does.

Q. And the Islamic Relief Committee is a committee that you 

have testified about. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And in fact, I think you made a summary chart about the 

Islamic Relief Committee. 

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Okay. Now, in this indictment, and the charges against 

my client and these other gentlemen, the Islamic Relief 

Committee does not appear. Correct?

A. I don't believe that it does.

Q. Right. It is not a charged count in the indictment. 

Right?

A. It is not.

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Q. It is not an overt act in the indictment. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. So, in fact, if you looked through the entire indictment, 

you would never see the word Islamic Relief Committee. Right?

A. I don't recall that the Islamic Relief Committee appears 

at all, and I know it was not part of a count.

Q. Now, this Islamic Relief Committee, this is an Israeli 

charity meaning that it is based in Israel. You know that. 

Right?

A. It was located in Um El-Fahem which is within Israel, but 

it was closed down in 1996, I believe.

Q. Okay. I didn't ask you when it was closed down. And I 

may ask you that, but now I am asking you, was it located in 

Israel. And what is your answer to that question?

A. I am sorry. I thought you said is it located in Israel. 

At the time it was operating it was in Israel.

Q. It was in Israel. Okay. And do you know that it was 

established in 1991?

A. I don't know the exact date that it was established.

Q. So you don't know the history of the committee?

A. I have read it in some of the HLF documents, but I don't 

recall offhand the date of the creation.

Q. Okay. Now, in terms of your Demonstrative No. 8, let's 

talk a little bit about context. Okay?

A. Can we put it up so I can see it? 

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Q. Well, this is what I am talking about, this 

demonstrative. Do you remember this?

A. I do. I think there were two pages to it, so just to be 

clear which exhibits we are speaking about.

Q. Just where the Islamic Relief Committee is mentioned. 

And we are talking about the year 1992. 

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. So let's stay with 1992. In 1992, how long had 

the Intifada been going on?

A. The Intifada began in December of 1987.

Q. So it was going on for five years?

A. Almost, at that time.

Q. And this is the first Intifada. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, how long in 1992 had the West Bank and the Gaza 

Strip been occupied by Israel?

A. The uprising was in December of 1987 as a result of the 

occupation, so the occupation had been existing at that point.

Q. Do you know when the occupation began?

A. I am not an expert on the issue of Israeli occupation, so 

I don't feel comfortable speaking about it.

Q. Does the Six Day War ring any bell?

A. It does.

Q. 1967. So do you agree with me that at least since 1967 

Israel has been occupying the West Bank and Gaza up until 

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1992? 

A. That is correct. Israel was created in 1948, and I know 

there were a number of battles between then and --

Q. I am asking you about the beginning of the occupation of 

the West Bank and Gaza from 1967. Do you agree that in 1967 

those areas were occupied by Israel?

A. I know that Israel had a presence in those areas. As I 

said, I am not an expert on Israeli occupation, so I do not 

feel comfortable testifying at length about it.

Q. When you say a presence, what do you mean by that?

A. As I stated, I am not an expert on Israeli occupation, so 

I do not feel comfortable -- I don't know the extent of 

Israeli presence -- 

Q. Well, you just told the jury -- 

THE COURT: Ms. Moreno, she says she doesn't know 

much about that. Get onto is something that she knows about.

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) So you don't know about the occupation. 

A. I know that Israel had a presence, but I am not 

comfortable speaking about the extent of it, as I am not an 

expert in that area.

Q. Okay. The Project 236 that you mentioned in connection 

with the Islamic Relief Committee, do you remember testifying 

about that?

A. I do.

Q. And you said that you had looked through the documents in 

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Project 236. 

A. That is correct.

Q. All right. And you said that it was confusing to you and 

that the numbers didn't add up. Do you remember that 

testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, the documents in 236 also include a number of 

documents from the Red Cross. Do you recall that?

A. They do.

Q. Okay. And the Red Cross was involved with that Project 

236 in some fashion or another. 

A. I don't know that I would say that they were involved. 

They had issued certificates of security detention for 

individuals who had been detained by the government of Israel. 

So I don't know that the Red Cross -- I don't know what their 

involvement was, other than to print those certificates saying 

"These individuals are under arrest."

Q. So in Project 236 you saw documents evidencing the Red 

Cross and some sort of involvement, you don't know what it 

was, in that project. 

A. If you want to, we can look at one of the certificates 

and see, but what it is is the certificate of detention 

appeared to have been printed by the Red Cross. Other than 

that, I am not aware of their involvement.

Q. And you saw that in Project 236?

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A. If we can pull it up then I can say for sure.

MS. MORENO: May I have a moment, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, there were so many 

documents, may I approach the witness with -- 

THE COURT: Sure. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) The 21st Century demonstrative. 

A. Yes. This is what I was talking about.

Q. Can you describe it for the jury?

A. Yes. I wish we could put it on the screen for them to 

see. In the documents, along with the applications for the 

families, generally there were attached a document and it had 

a stamp on it and it said, "To whom it may concern: According 

to the records of the International Committee of the Red 

Cross, Mr. and Ms."--and then it has the name, it tells where 

they are from--"was arrested by the authorities for reasons 

related to security on"--and it gives the date, and it tells 

how long they were sentenced for, and where they are presently 

detained.

Q. And this is representative of the kind of Red Cross 

documents that you saw in Project 236. Would that be fair?

A. Yes. There are a number of those documents in that 

project.

Q. Thank you. By the way, on this Islamic Relief 

Committee -- 

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MS. MORENO: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Showing you what has been marked as 

Defense Exhibit No. 963, which is the blocking list. 

A. Okay.

Q. Okay? And when you talk about designation, you are 

really referring to this list, are you not; the list that is 

before you?

A. I am not referring to this list. This is a list of 

entities that had been designated. This particular list is 

dated June 29, 2001, so this list provides, you know, a 

listing of all the entities on that date that were designated 

as a terrorist, whether it is a specially designated terrorist 

or a foreign terrorist organization.

Q. Right. Is the Islamic Relief Committee a designated 

terrorist organization on that list?

A. I don't believe the Islamic Relief Agency is listed 

individually under here. It would probably fall underneath 

the Hamas designation, but I don't believe it is individually 

listed in this. I will confirm. It is not listed 

individually.

Q. And when you look at the Hamas designation, if you could 

turn to the Hamas designation, underneath it you don't see the 

Islamic Relief Committee. Correct? That is not in there. 

A. It says Hamas, aka Islamic Resistance Movement, and gives 

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several other names for it. That designation would include 

any part of Hamas.

Q. Right. The Islamic Relief Committee, the name of the 

committee is not on the list. 

A. The name of the committee is not on the list.

Q. So the committee is not a designated terrorist 

organization according to the United States. Correct?

A. As I said, the individual committee's name is not on this 

list.

MS. MORENO: May I approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Here is another document, Elbarasse 

Search No. 19. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. It is a document you testified about that is in evidence. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And again, we are talking about July 30th, 1994, 

according to its own internal indication. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Elbarasse Search No. 31. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Again, this is internally dated 1988. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Elbarasse Search No. 35. I believe it is right there. 

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A. It is.

Q. Okay. And we are looking at the dates now. June 10th, 

1992? 

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, is it fair to say that all -- When was the Ashqar 

search?

A. In December of 1993.

Q. Okay. So it is fair to say that all of those documents 

and any of that evidence that was retrieved from Ashqar 

predates the designation of Hamas. 

A. Yes. All of the Ashqar search documents would have been 

December 1993 or before.

Q. So all of that Ashqar evidence, however much it is, that 

you have testified about the last week, that all predates the 

designation date. 

A. Correct.

Q. Let's talk a little bit about context again. HLF Search 

No. 7. Do you remember testifying about this document?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And your attention was directed to this income by 

year and these numbers next to it. 

A. Correct.

Q. Do you remember that?

A. I do.

Q. Now, this was found in a computer. Correct?

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A. In an HLF computer, yes.

Q. In an HLF computer. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Where was this document used or filed?

A. I don't know where it was used.

Q. Okay. So you don't know if it was ever used. 

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know if it was a draft. Right?

A. All I can say is that the document title was found on the 

computer when the computer was seized in 2001.

Q. That is all you can say about this document. 

A. I don't know how they used it.

Q. Okay. 

MS. MORENO: If I may use one of the boards? 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) This is Government's Exhibit Bank 

Accounts. It is a summary of bank accounts that has been 

used, and there is a number of accounts on there. Do you 

agree?

A. I agree.

Q. And not all of the accounts actually have been discussed 

in this case, but let's just talk about the ones that have.

Now, all of the Occupied Land Fund -- What is missing 

from this chart are dates. Right?

A. There are no dates on this.

Q. No dates on here. So the Occupied Land Fund NAIT series, 

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that all predates the designation. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Those documents do?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. A number of the HLF bank accounts, not all of 

them, but a number of them predate the designation date. 

Correct?

A. I know that a number of the bank records that we had in 

other bank accounts included transactions that occurred prior 

to the designation, but without refreshing my memory and 

actually looking at all the account records I would not want 

to state that a number of these bank records in general 

predate the designation.

Q. Now, you with say the Marzook accounts predate the 

designation. 

A. The records we discussed regarding the Marzook 

transactions did predate the Hamas designations. I can't 

recall if there are some records in those bank accounts that 

postdate the designation or not. I would need to refresh my 

memory.

Q. There are nine accounts indicated as belonging to Mr. 

Marzook. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. On this chart?

A. That is correct.

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Q. Okay. And the zakat committee bank accounts, we really 

haven't gone into them yet. Right?

A. We have not. He introduced them yesterday, but we have 

not discussed them.

Q. And we are going to go into that when you come back?

A. That is correct.

Q. So I will save my cross on that issue, then. 

The charts that you prepared called OLF 1988, OLF 1989, 

obviously predate the designation. Right? 

A. That is correct.

Q. The payments to IC Gaza, Islamic Center of Gaza, they 

also predate the designation. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. The videos, let's go back to the context issue on the 

videos. I am not going to discuss the videos too much. I 

think Ms. Cadeddu might get into those. But certainly a 

number of the videos that we have seen also predate the 

designation. 

A. Yes, a number of them do.

Q. InfoCom Search No. 56, HLF Search No. 71, Mushtaha Search 

No. 1 and 6, and others, some of them are 1988, 1991, 1990. 

Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, let me just ask you, on those videos that were 

played, there is interspersed at times on some of the videos 

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what appears to be documentary footage. Do you recall?

A. I know what you are talking about, yes.

Q. And that appears to be scenes of fighting. Correct?

A. That is what it appears to be. I don't know exactly 

where the footage came from or who within the IAP put that in 

there.

Q. Those scenes appear to be fighting. Correct?

A. They do.

Q. And those scenes appear to depict persons, children 

throwing stones. You saw that. Right?

A. I saw people throwing stones, yes.

Q. And you also saw Israeli soldiers in those documentary 

pieces. Correct?

A. I saw what appeared to be Israeli soldiers. Again, I am 

not sure where the footage came from.

Q. And you saw what appeared to be in some of those cuts 

Israeli tanks. Correct?

A. That is what they appear to be.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, at this time I want to move 

into a phone call, a 106 phone call that has been agreed to 

with the Government.

THE COURT: All right. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) This is Baker Wiretap No. 37. Do you 

see that?

A. I do. I think it has an old exhibit sticker on it.

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Q. Sorry. 

A. Okay. Thank you.

Q. No. 37. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And it was played for the jury, but not all of it was 

played for the jury. 

A. Okay. Correct.

Q. Right? So this particular call ended on page 7. Do you 

remember that?

A. I do.

Q. It says by Mr. Elashi. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Can you read pages 8 and 9 to the jury?

A. Okay. SH is Shukri Abu Baker and GH is Ghassan Elashi. 

Shukri Abu Baker says, "Yeah. Definitely, definitely." 

Ghassan Elashi says, "So, they cannot tell me 

because -- they cannot say that because a Muslim kills he is a 

terrorist and when they kill it is their right." 

Shukri: "Hmm, hmm. Yeah, yeah. In the worst case 

scenario, this is, what you call it. This is an internal 

civil dispute. If we speak using their civilized language, an 

internal civil dispute between two people, and we have nothing 

to do with it in the country, to encourage the government, the 

U.S. government to side with a particular party, this 

is -- This is a very, very special case where two people are 

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struggling for the same land." 

Ghassan: "Yeah." 

Shukri: "And two people, if you can consider these 

people are using terrorist tactics, then Israel has -- has 

been established on terrorist tactics from the beginning." 

"Exactly."

"From The beginning, I mean. So if a Jewish person has 

the right to come to this country, a Palestinian person also 

have the right, too, to come to this country."

"Yeah, yeah."

"So, even Mousa has the right to live in that country."

"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we didn't see that they 

deported none of the Jewish groups, not even one of those 

criminals. On the contrary, they fled, went and came, those 

people charged and Alex Odeh. Israel has not -- America has 

not extradited."

"It is harboring. He sits there today."

"Yeah, yeah."

"Doesn't Israel harbor terrorists?"

"Yeah, it does. Yeah, it is possible that a person 

speaks up in this country, but I'm not worried about north 

Texas, south Texas. I'm not worried about nothing. One 

should let it slide. This is possibly an attempt to respond 

to -- to open --"

"I'm not going to respond to -- about the Foundation or 

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north Texas."

"Yeah, yeah, yeah."

"I'm talking about the philosophical basic of the 

argument."

"Yeah, yeah, yeah."

"There is no argument. This is a Steve Emerson article."

"Yeah, yeah." 

"And also on what basis does the article talk about the 

deportation?" What evidence does the writer of the 

editorial --"

"Aha."

"What is the evidence? Can you tell us what the evidence 

is?"

"Exactly. Right."

"Or is it that, from now on, any person that Israel 

dislikes, I mean, has to leave the country? Let Israel submit 

a list of all the people it does not want so that they could 

leave America. This will be a precedent. This won't -- I 

mean, this won't weaken terrorism. This will strengthen 

terrorism everywhere when Israel begins to intimate the lives 

of people, American citizens and green card holders even in 

America. This means who is ruling America? That is the 

question. Who is ruling America? And -- And what right does 

Israel have to demand the deportation if there is no evidence 

and says, 'Yes, deport it. Deport him.' Why? And it was 

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issued a warrant for the arrest 6 days after his detention in 

New York."

"Yeah, yeah, yeah."

"What is this? If they had something against him, 

wouldn't they have issued a warrant for the arrest long time 

ago?"

"Yes, yes. It is an opportunity it couldn't miss".

"What?"

"An opportunity that landed in its lap. An opportunity 

for Israel to distract eyes from its problems and stuff."

Q. All right. 

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, with respect to those two 

additional pages, there is an agreement with the Government 

that it will be part of the original exhibit, Government 

Exhibit No. 37. 

THE COURT: With the Baker Wiretap No. 37? And you 

are in agreement that this will be added to it? 

MR. JONAS: Yes. 

THE COURT: It is admitted. 

MS. MORENO: I just have a final question. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Agent Burns, you testified extensively 

about the Philadelphia meeting. Do you remember that?

A. I do.

Q. And there was a portion of the Philadelphia meeting that 

was played that included something that my client said, which 

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was excerpt 14-E. Do you recall that?

A. I don't recall which excerpt it was. I would like to 

look at it if we are going to talk about it. 

MS. MORENO: May I approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: You said excerpt 14-E of what exhibit, 

counsel? 

MS. MORENO: Philadelphia Meeting 14-E. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Do you recall that? 

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Now, you told the jury -- There was a long passage 

where Mr. Abu Baker had been talking, and it ended with -- The 

last sentence I believe of that passage he says, "Our 

relationship with everyone must be good regardless." Do you 

see that last sentence?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And then you told the jury that my client 

responded, "Including the Islamists, of course."

A. That is what it says.

Q. Right. And you know that that is incorrect. 

A. I believe it should have been corrected to say, 

"Including the Muslims, of course."

Q. Because you know there is a difference between Islamists 

and Muslims.

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A. Yes, there is.

Q. All right. And so he said, "Including the Muslims." 

Right?

A. I believe there was a correction on the translation. 

This does not say that, so I would like to confirm that the 

corrected copy of the translation actually said Muslims. But 

I recall seeing something about that.

MS. MORENO: May I approach? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: That is what I was thinking of.

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Okay. So in fact Mr. Elashi did not say 

"Including the Islamists." He said, "Including the Muslims." 

Right?

A. That is correct. This should have been corrected.

Q. And Mr. Abu Baker also did not say the Islamists. He 

also said the Muslims. Correct?

A. I believe, if I could see that again, but I believe in 

the corrected version he still said the Islamists. Okay. The 

third instance -- He did say it, but the first time he said it 

was supposed to be Muslims, and the second time he said 

Islamists.

Q. So in that particular passage where you told the jury 

that my client said Islamists, that was incorrect?

A. That is correct. The transcript was wrong.

Q. And when you indicated that Mr. Abu Baker in the 

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immediate response used the word Islamists, that was also 

incorrect. 

A. Correct. He said Muslims first and then he said 

Islamists.

Q. And that was a translation that came from Mr. Shafik. 

Correct? The original false translation came from Mr. Shafik. 

A. I think that he had done the original translation, and he 

also made the corrections after some discussion with the 

parties, I believe.

Q. All right. 

MS. MORENO: I have nothing further, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: All right. Let's go ahead and take the 

morning break. Let's be back at 11:00. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Who is up next? Ms. Hollander? Okay. 

We will be back at 11:00.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Hollander: 

Q. Good morning, Agent Burns.

A. Good morning.

Q. You testified that you have reviewed the majority of the 

documents from the Holy Land Foundation. Correct?

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A. That is correct.

Q. And you have had them now since 2002 really, all the 

documents. 

A. The ones from the Holy Land search, yes.

Q. Right. And so you have been through them and through 

them and through them. Would that be fair to say?

A. I and a lot of other people. There are a lot of 

documents.

Q. Right. Many of them were in Arabic. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And so you had to sit with your translator to work your 

way through those. Correct?

A. Actually the way we had it done, we would have the 

translators go through and initially conduct what we call a 

triage of the boxes, and generally gives a summary of what 

they were. And we would go from there and determine what 

needed to be translated verbatim and things like that. So we 

didn't actually sit with them while they were reviewing them.

Q. So the translators made an initial judgment about what 

was pertinent in that triage. Correct?

A. They were given instructions on what to look for, yes.

Q. But they made the initial judgment based on their 

instructions. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you have also mentioned, just so we get it straight, 

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that some people use what we refer to, and I am not sure it is 

proper, as an Abu name. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it is a custom to refer to the name of your eldest 

son as Abu and then the name of the eldest son. Correct? For 

men?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you have said that Shukri Abu Baker, my client, is 

sometimes referred to as Abu Mohamed?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you are aware that he has daughters. Correct?

A. I am.

Q. Right. So Mohamed was a child who died. Correct?

A. I don't have any personal knowledge of that. I think you 

have mentioned that to me before, but I don't -- I am not 

personally aware of what happened with that matter.

Q. You are aware that he doesn't have any living son named 

Mohamed. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, I am going to want to talk to you for a little while 

about the Philadelphia meeting.

A. Okay.

Q. And that meeting occurred over the course of three days. 

Correct?

A. It did. I think the actual meeting began on Saturday and 

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finished on Sunday, but they arrived on Friday.

Q. Right. So you have -- Actual recordings were marked by 

date and tape number. Correct?

A. I believe that is correct.

Q. Right. So, for example -- We are going to have to use 

the elmo, because I don't have access to all of these on here, 

but I think we will be able to get this to work here. 

A. Okay.

Q. I will just have to put it on and then talk to you about 

it, because nobody can hear me if I am over there. 

A. Okay.

Q. So bear with me a moment. 

For example, if we look at this one, it says Government 

Exhibit Philly Meeting No. 8. Correct? 

A. Correct.

Q. And then it has an audio file, too. Right?

A. Yes, up there.

Q. And if you can't read it I will read it to you. It says 

MTGB_19931003_3.WAV. Right?

A. It does.

Q. So that is how you know -- I mean, that is how you link 

it to the audio file. In other words, it is -- 19931003 would 

be the 3rd of October and then No. 3. 

A. I believe that is correct, but I didn't personally deal 

with any of the technical aspects of it, so I would rather 

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someone technical speak to that for certain. But that seems 

to stand to reason.

Q. Okay. The Government put these markings on basically so 

you could identify them and keep them in order. Right?

A. I believe that is why the audio file designator is on 

there. But again, I didn't put that on there, so I am not 

sure.

Q. But the purpose is to keep them in order. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. But even though you have this way of keeping them 

in order, when you look at the Government's exhibits that you 

have introduced -- that the Government has introduced of the 

Philadelphia files, they are not in chronological order, are 

they?

A. I believe that the way that they are exhibited puts them 

in chronological order. I can't state for certain because I 

didn't actually put the exhibits in their final order and I 

don't know exactly what that audio file .WAV represents. Like 

I said, that is a technical issue that the technical people 

dealt with. I believe that they should be in chronological 

order and that they are. But if you have something different, 

I would be happy to look at it.

Q. Well, let's look -- That one is Philly Exhibit No. 4, and 

it is .WAV file 11. Right? I am sorry. Philly Exhibit No. 4 

and it is .WAV file 15. Correct?

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A. Correct. I can read what it says. But again, I don't 

know what the .WAV files necessarily mean, so I don't know if 

that means it is .WAV file 15. I see it says 

MTGB_19931002_15.WAV, but I don't know exactly what that 

indicates.

Q. Fine. We will get at it a different way here in a 

minute. 

But you agree with me that for the jury to follow the 

conversations they ought to all go in order. Right? 

A. Yes, they should.

Q. Okay. Now, the Government introduced 18 Philadelphia 

files. Correct?

A. That sounds right.

Q. But in fact there were 24 tapes. Correct?

A. I don't know the exact number of tapes. I know that 

there were some of the hotel room phone calls that were 

transcribed, very short conversations for the night before 

that probably aren't included in the actual meeting 

transcript, if that is what you are talking about. But I am 

not sure of exactly how many tapes there were.

Q. Okay. Well, we will get back to that, then, also.

Let me ask you some other things and we will get back to 

that when we actually talk about the files. And I think you 

will see, then, that yours are out of order and then we can 

straighten it out. Okay?

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A. Okay.

Q. Now, as an FBI agent, you sometimes attend meetings or 

conventions, don't you?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And there are law enforcement agencies and 

organizations that have calls to meetings, set up meetings, 

and that you go to them. Correct? Occasionally?

A. I have attended law enforcement meetings, yes.

Q. Right. And the fact that you attend a particular meeting 

doesn't turn that into an FBI meeting just because you are 

there, does it?

A. Well, if I were attending a law enforcement meeting, I 

mean, I am a law enforcement officer. It is not an FBI 

meeting, but it is certainly a law enforcement meeting.

Q. But it doesn't make a FBI meeting just because you or you 

and some of your colleagues show up. Correct. It is still 

whatever the agency called it that is the meeting. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, you testified that Shukri Abu Baker, my client, 

stated that in his 2002 declaration -- You recall that 

declaration?

A. I do.

Q. That the Philadelphia meeting was, and I will quote, "A 

meeting of Islamic intellectuals, academicians, community 

leaders, and representatives of American Islamic 

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organizations, such as the HLF."

A. I recall that he said that, yes.

Q. And that he said it was not a meeting of any 

organization. You recall that. 

A. I do.

Q. And you talked about that, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Because you made a point of saying that this 

wasn't a meeting of the Palestine Committee. That is the 

point you were making that that is what he said. In other 

words, that he didn't say this was a meeting -- I am sorry. 

Strike that. I said it all wrong. Let me say it again. You 

made a point of saying that Shukri in his declaration didn't 

say this was a meeting of the Palestine Committee. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Once I got it out of my mouth right.

And you were relying on a statement at the Philadelphia 

meeting by Omar Ahmad that says, and I will quote, I think you 

will remember this, "This meeting was called for by the 

Palestine Committee." And you compared that to what Shukri 

said. Right?

A. I compared that, as well as the planning phone calls, and 

the individuals who attended the meeting. So there were a 

number of things. But yes, that was one of the things, when 

Omar Ahmad announced it was a meeting of the Palestine 

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Committee.

Q. And you prepared a summary of the Philadelphia meeting, 

didn't you? And you call it Philly Meeting Summary. 

A. Yes, we prepared a summary chart.

Q. This is the chart. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Correct?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And it lists what organizations people are in, doesn't 

it? 

A. It lists what organizations I could establish through the 

evidence that we were introducing.

Q. Right. But not all of them are members of the Palestine 

Committee, are they?

A. I can't say that they are not members, but I cannot 

indicate that they were because I didn't have evidence to say 

for 100 percent that they were.

Q. So you don't -- According to your chart, going by your 

chart -- 

A. Correct.

Q. -- not all the members are listed as being members of the 

Philadelphia committee. Of the Palestine Committee. Correct?

A. Right. There are some people on there that I was not 

comfortable identifying as positively being members of the 

committee.

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Q. So there are some people on this chart -- it is a very 

simple question. There are some people on this chart who, 

according to your information, what you have available, are 

not members of the Palestine Committee. Correct?

A. That is not what I said. I said I didn't feel 

comfortable indicating that they were members. I didn't 

say -- I said that I could not say that they were not members. 

Does that make sense? 

Q. So you couldn't say that they were members either. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Correct? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I guess I need to ask 

you if you could ask the jury if it bothers anyone to have 

that screen on between these? If it is not glaring, I will 

just leave it on.

THE COURT: Anybody bothered by that monitor over 

there? Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I just wanted to make sure it wasn't 

too bright, because it is just easier to leave it on. Thank 

you. 

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Now, some people you said got 

together before the meeting to plan it. Correct?

A. They had phone calls to plan the meeting.

Q. And you actually intercepted some of those phone calls, 

and even told the jury about some of them, didn't you?

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A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. They decided that some people would deliver papers 

on certain topics. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And they planned the sessions out and, you know, who 

would work on what the topics for the sessions would be. 

Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And who would deliver papers at each session?

A. That is correct.

Q. And the meeting was held at a Courtyard by Marriott; 

courtyard Marriott in Philadelphia. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. That hotel was open to the public while they were there, 

wasn't it?

A. The hotel was. I don't think that the meeting room was, 

but the hotel was obviously.

Q. When organizations have meetings, they often don't invite 

the entire public to them, do they?

A. That is correct.

Q. So there wasn't anything odd about that, was there?

A. About --

Q. About not inviting the entire public to the meeting. 

A. I think in their conversations when they were planning, 

they discussed that they didn't want to invite certain people 

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because of --

Q. Right. That is not what I am asking. I am asking about 

the public. The meetings weren't open to the public, were 

they, as far as you know?

A. As far as I know, the Philadelphia meeting, no, was not 

open to the public.

Q. Right. But they all checked into the hotel using their 

own names, didn't they? As far as you know. 

A. From the records we received from the hotel, I know that 

those individuals used their own names.

Q. And that is the information that you have. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. And you have provided that information for 

the jury from the Marriott. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Shukri signed in using his name, didn't he?

A. I don't recall if we actually saw his signature, but he 

did use his name, yes.

Q. And you were able to subpoena credit card information, 

because people used credit cards there also. Correct?

A. Yes. The HLF purchased those airline tickets and the 

hotel rooms.

Q. Right. They didn't go in and pay in cash for their hotel 

rooms, did they?

A. I am not aware if anyone did that or did not, but I know 

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that the HLF paid for a number of rooms with their credit 

card.

Q. Right. And you took surveillance photographs of people 

coming and going. Correct?

A. The FBI did. I wasn't there.

Q. I am sorry. When I say you, I suppose I should say your 

organization. I don't mean you personally.

A. Yes, they did.

Q. And they met in actual hotel meeting rooms. Correct?

A. I believe the records indicated there was a conference 

room there at the hotel.

Q. In fact, the FBI had set up cameras in that conference 

room, but you weren't able to actually see very much. 

Correct?

A. They had cameras. When I viewed the tapes they were 

extremely grainy and very difficult to make out who was in 

the --

Q. Right. But the FBI had gone in before they got there and 

set up cameras. Right?

A. They did, yes.

Q. And actually the FBI also set up some video cameras in 

some of the individual hotel rooms that people were staying 

in, didn't they?

A. I recall at least one hotel room that did have a camera 

in it.

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Q. And the people staying in that room didn't know, of 

course, that they were being watched, did they?

A. I don't know if they did or not.

Q. You have no reason to think that they would know that, 

did you?

A. I know that in the Philadelphia meeting they did talk 

about, you know, being aware of surveillance, so I don't know 

if they thought they were being watched or not.

Q. But you didn't provide the jury here with any of the 

videos from the individual hotel room, did you? We don't that 

have information here, do we?

MR. JONAS: We object to the question, Your Honor; 

relevance.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) We don't have that information here 

from the video that was used in someone's hotel room, do we?

A. It has not been introduced. I think you have a copy, if 

we want to look at it.

Q. No, that wasn't my question. You guys -- You, the 

Government, didn't introduce it, did you?

A. No, we have not introduced it.

Q. Thank you. 

Now, you have discussed with the jury various portions, 

and you have read various portions, and I am going to ask you 

to read a few more portions. 

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A. Okay.

Q. I don't think they are going to be very long. If you 

have a problem with your voice, then I will take over.

A. I think I can do it.

Q. Okay. Because you didn't tell the jury everything that 

Shukri said during that three-day meeting, did you?

A. No. I think we would probably still be here with me 

reading.

Q. Right. And we are not going to do that now either. But 

you have read the whole meeting, haven't you?

A. I have.

Q. And you helped the Government lawyers pick out the 

sections to read, didn't you?

A. We met and discussed the Philadelphia meeting and 

determined what portions that we were going to introduce.

Q. Right. And you were part of that meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And that was based, to some extent, on the 

fact that you are knowledge about it because you have read it. 

A. I would hope that they appreciate the knowledge that I 

have.

Q. Right. Because you have read it. 

A. Because I have read it.

Q. Okay. Now, you pointed out, to start with, and let's go 

back to Shukri's declaration for a moment, that he said that 

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at the Philadelphia meeting everyone spoke their minds. You 

pointed that out to the jury from the declaration. 

A. That is correct.

MS. HOLLANDER: Can I have just a minute to make 

sure I have this correct?

THE COURT: Sure. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, can we approach? I 

think that will solve this problem. 

THE COURT: Sure. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MS. HOLLANDER: I thought she was going to tell me 

that she understood how the .WAV files worked. I know how 

they work. The Government knows how they work. They go in 

order. But she said she didn't know. The Government's Philly 

meeting is all out of order, which I can show. 

What I wanted her to read from, however, is Philly 

meeting which I have identified as meeting 14. It is one that 

they didn't introduce. There are six tapes that are not in 

theirs, and theirs are completely -- I mean, I can show it. 

It is going to come up in my cross that they are completely 

jumbled. But I had anticipated that once she told me the 

order of the .WAV files, which I assumed she would know 

because she has been working with these, I would just 

introduce the entire Philly meeting which we have in the right 

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order. And since she hasn't done that, the one I want her to 

read is one of ours. 

So I can just not identify it right now and just have her 

read it, or we are going to have to -- I am going to have to 

call someone, or the Government is going to have to 

acknowledge that we can introduce these without objection. I 

mean, they are their tapes, but they didn't introduce all of 

them and they are all out of order. 

MR. JONAS: First of all, I have no idea how these 

.WAV files work, Your Honor. I don't. So I resent the 

implication when she says that the Government knows, first of 

all. 

Second of all, I don't agree with her. Just looking at 

it, she had, from what I saw on the screen, one that was 

October 2nd with the number 15 and October 3rd with a number 

3. So that doesn't mean that the .WAV file numbers indicate 

that that is out of order. 

I do acknowledge, these are not in chronological order. 

It is partly miscommunication. It was my fault. I had given 

a list to the paralegal of the order I was going to show -- 

THE COURT: I am just trying to figure out why all 

of this is relevant to the jury.

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, it is relevant to the jury, 

Your Honor, because the Government has provided them in a form 

that they will never be able to find the consecutive things, 

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and that is -- 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, can I explain, because I 

actually put this stuff together? 

This were actually two sets of tapes, one for October 1st 

and 2nd, and then a second set for October 3rd. There are 18 

tapes for the 1st through the 2nd, and then 6 for the 3rd. 

And the last trial the Government put them all in order with 

Government exhibit numbers. So we compared the Government's 

exhibits with the old exhibit list and then with the 

Philadelphia tape, and so there are six that are missing. 

We need to use -- We want to use one of those six that is 

missing. There are other portions where Shukri is speaking, 

and which we are going to talk about in cross, and then what 

he is saying continues on the next tape. But if the jury 

wanted to look at that independently through the Government's 

exhibits, they couldn't do it because, where he starts, for 

example, like on Government transcript No. 15, but then where 

he finishes is Government transcript No. 13. 

We wanted to put them all in order so if the jury wanted 

to independently review what someone said, they would have it 

in the right order to do so, because there are several 

conversations and statements that continue over a transcript.

MR. JONAS: Can I make a proposal? 

MR. JACKS: Judge, what they are saying is that they 

are going to put them in what they believe is a chronological 

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order.

MS. HOLLANDER: It is a chronological order.

MR. JACKS: That is her testimony. Nobody has said 

that the fact that these are numbered indicates that that is 

the sequence they were recorded, because these meetings went a 

long time. You will see some of them where the tape ran out 

in the middle of the conversation, so I don't know -- Whoever 

numbered these recordings, I don't know what the code is that 

19931002 -- That is probably on October 2nd, 1993 and then it 

has a number. But does that mean that those tapes are 

numbered? 

THE COURT: I don't know any of this that you are 

talking about. This is all Greek to me. I don't want to get 

into that right now until we resolve it. What is it you are 

about -- You want to get that conversation, and you object to 

that? 

MR. JACKS: It is already in.

MS. HOLLANDER: It is not in. It is not there.

THE COURT: Take a look at it. 

MR. JACKS: This wasn't on their list either to what 

they were going to go into. 

MS. DUNCAN: I told you last night that we were -- 

MR. JACKS: It is not on the list.

THE COURT: Because none of the Philadelphia meeting 

was on the list. Well, was it? 

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MS. HOLLANDER: Well, I didn't think it was going to 

be an issue because it is --

MS. DUNCAN: I told him this last night. 

MR. JACKS: This was delivered last night, but we 

weren't told this.

MS. DUNCAN: I did. I said, "These are the ones we 

are going to use tomorrow. I think there may be some more, 

but of course" --

THE COURT: What is your exhibit number on this? 

MS. DUNCAN: These are the Philly meetings.

THE COURT: What is your exhibit number on it.

MS. DUNCAN: It is D-Philly Meeting No. 1 through 

24.

MR. JACKS: Implicit in this is that they have put 

them in chronological order, and there is nobody to say that.

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, I can show it from the 

conversation.

MS. DUNCAN: Also this is the order that they had in 

the first trial. When you look at their exhibit list from the 

first trial, it is clear.

THE COURT: But they are saying it is not.

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, he has admitted that they got 

out of order.

MR. JONAS: That doesn't mean that you put them in 

the right order either.

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MS. HOLLANDER: Well, then you can look at them and 

see.

THE COURT: But this should have been done before 

now is the problem. I mean, here we have been keeping the 

jury waiting again.

MR. JONAS: If you want us to address this during 

lunch, we can take a look at it then. Right now I have to go 

back and check ours to see if this is right. 

MS. DUNCAN: Can we break early and do this?

THE COURT: We are already going to take a long 

lunch, so we are going to work until 12:30. 

MR. JONAS: I don't know the procedure, Your Honor. 

I need to take a look at this.

THE COURT: I am not going to let you get into it. 

You didn't put it on the list, so I have not had a chance to 

look it. They haven't had a chance to look at it.

MS. HOLLANDER: We told them.

THE COURT: Yes, but you told them this morning. I 

haven't looked at it either. 

MS. HOLLANDER: We told them last night.

THE COURT: It is the same thing. I haven't looked 

at it, and I have got these objections, and of course I can't 

resolve it because I haven't looked at it. So I am not going 

to let you get into it. 

That was the whole purpose of exchanging these lists. 

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That defeats it when you are doing it late at night or in the 

morning. I didn't get it. I still don't have it. This is 

the first time I have seen it. I have some supplemental disks 

this morning that I haven't seen, and still haven't seen. 

That was the purpose of exchanging these lists is so we could 

get their objections, I could look at it in advance, and avoid 

these lengthy bench conferences.

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, this is cross, and we 

don't know until the end of cross -- 

THE COURT: But I don't believe that. You already 

knew about this out of order and all of this. I just can't 

accept that you all just decided sometime this morning to use 

this.

MS. CADEDDU: Is the Court taking the position that 

we have to disclose our cross exhibits early? 

THE COURT: No. Well, yes I have on those, because 

this is a retrial. I have already been over that, Marlo. 

There shouldn't be any surprises. Everybody has seen these 

exhibits. And we are doing it witness by witness as we go in 

advance so that I can take a look at objections to avoid this.

MS. CADEDDU: I would object to disclosing all my 

cross.

THE COURT: That is not my ruling on it. You have 

your objection, but it is overruled. And that is not my 

ruling. 

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I am not going to let you go into this.

MS. HOLLANDER: The problem, Your Honor, is I never 

anticipated that the Government was going to have an issue 

with this. I mean -- 

THE COURT: Part of the problem is they don't know 

because he says he needs to read it.

MS. HOLLANDER: I understand. 

MR. CLINE: Why don't we work this out over lunch.

THE COURT: That is what I am saying.

MS. HOLLANDER: Let me see if I can go to some other 

part of my cross. Just give me a minute.

THE COURT: I can't resolve this now. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

MS. HOLLANDER: Give me just a second, Your Honor. 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, can we approach briefly?

THE COURT: Sure. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, we just checked -- I know 

we were going to take a long lunch. We just checked, and it 

would be fine for them if we started it now and came back at 

1:30. So do the two hours starting now, resolve this issue, 

and then come back at 1:30, which may be the fastest thing, if 

that is okay with the Government.

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MS. HOLLANDER: That would help.

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Thank you. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to go 

head and take a long lunch break because of some things I need 

to take care of. So I will let you go, and be back at 1:30. 

We will plan on working until 5:00 or 5:30. 

Please recall the instructions we have been over. See 

you back at 1:30. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Be back at 1:15, unless you get this 

issue resolved. If I need to make a ruling on it, be back at 

1:15. If you get it resolved, we can start at 1:30. 

We will be in recess.

(Lunch recess.)

THE COURT: Where are we with respect to this 

exhibit? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, Mr. Jonas has I think 

the ball is in his court. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas. Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, with respect to the Philly 

exhibits, as I understand it the Defense wants to introduce 24 

transcripts of the conversations from the Philadelphia 

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meeting, and they want to introduce them and number them in 

such a fashion and make --

THE COURT: Twenty-four different conversations than 

the ones that are in? 

MR. JACKS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: I believe there is six -- There are 18 

in plus -- 

THE COURT: Six additional? 

MR. JACKS: Correct. And they want to number them 

and tell the jury that these are in chronological order in the 

way that the conversations occurred. I don't believe that 

there is any way to establish that, the chronological order 

part of that argument. The exhibits or the transcripts, or I 

guess actually it would have been the tape recordings from 

which the transcripts were made. 

Someone, and I am not sure who it was, someone within the 

FBI apparently gave them this numbering system of some 

letters, 199310, which would be for October, and then either 

02 or 03. I think they are all either 02 or 03 indicating the 

2nd or the 3rd of October, and then underscore, and then the 

number, and then the term .WAV. I don't think that term .WAV 

was even known or in existence in 1993, so that term or that 

labeling formula had to have been applied later.

I don't believe you can tell from looking at the 

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conversations necessarily that --

THE COURT: The chronological order? 

MR. JACKS: That they are necessarily chronological. 

Sometimes they are the same speaker, but you can't tell that 

it is the continuation of the conversation on the prior tape. 

The Government believes that it has yet to be shown that 

it is necessary to arrange them in chronological order. I 

don't believe any justification or reason has really been 

expressed that if they are put in this order then this point 

can be made. And I don't think that has been conveyed to the 

Court, and for that reason we also would object.

As to the six extra conversations, they are hearsay to 

these Defendants, and unless and until a hearsay exception can 

be overcome or shown, I don't believe they are admissible. 

And if -- Well, that is the extent of it.

THE COURT: All right. Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Ms. Duncan is the one who worked 

this exhibit, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That is fine. 

Ms. Duncan? 

MS. DUNCAN: Thank you, Your Honor. In terms of the 

date issue, the order that we placed our transcripts in is the 

same order that the Government had the transcripts in before, 

during the last trial, and that is also according to these 

.WAV numbers. So the tapes that were turned over to us by the 

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Government, there were 18 tapes for the first two days and six 

tapes for the second two days. And so now we have numbered 

the first two days 1 through 18 and the second -- the third 

day 19 through 24. 

What I would propose -- I mean, during her cross 

examination of Agent Burns, Ms. Hollander can go through the 

.WAV numbers and show we have 1003_3, 4, 5, 6, 7. There are 

some conversations that she is intending to get into where it 

is very, very clear that a conversation starts, for example, 

on our transcript 6 and it finishes on transcript 7. I think 

we have two places -- I am sorry. On Defense 6 and 7. Two 

places where it is very clear that it is the same speaker 

speaking on the same subject. And I think when the jury hears 

it that it will be apparent to them. 

And so I think through, you know, explaining the .WAV 

file numbering through Agent Burns, the jury can decide 

whether the Government's are in order or ours are in order, 

and it is really up to them to decide. 

THE COURT: But she didn't know about the .WAV 

numbering, did she--Agent Burns? I think Ms. Hollander was 

already asking her some questions. She didn't know that that 

was necessarily a sequence.

MS. DUNCAN: And I don't think that she has to know 

for it to come in. She has to acknowledge that the FBI put 

these numbers here, and we can say, "Now this is .WAV_6, 7, 8, 

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9, 10," and then look at these certain conversations that we 

show these numbers are in order, and then it is really up for 

the jury to decide whether ours are in the correct order or 

the Government's are in the correct order. But they will have 

both so that when they are considering this evidence 

independently and making their verdict, they can look at both 

and say, "Oh, the Defense makes more sense to me in this order 

or the Government's."

THE COURT: What about the six exhibits, the 

additional exhibits that the Government didn't put in? What 

about that hearsay objection? 

MS. DUNCAN: First, Your Honor, the Government 

represented to this jury that its transcripts represent the 

whole of the meeting, and that is just not true. There are 24 

and they only introduced 18. So it would come in for that 

purpose. 

As for the -- I think there is one transcript I believe 

that Ms. Hollander wants to get into in substance before the 

jury, and it is necessary under the rule of completeness to 

understand what is being said by the speakers and the purpose 

of the Philadelphia meeting. The Government introduced the 

entire meeting during the last trial, and I think you can't 

just pull chunks out of a three-day meeting and still give the 

jury the full sense of what was being said and what the 

purpose of that meeting is. 

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And because the Philadelphia meeting is so critical here, 

I think it is really important that the jury get that full 

view, and that is what those six tapes do is they give the 

jury the full view of the three-day meeting that the 

Government has put so much weight on. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I just would like to add 

that Mr. Jonas said to the jury this is the whole meeting, and 

I asked Mr. Jonas several days ago when I realized that -- I 

wasn't sure what they were going to do, I asked him, "Are you 

putting in the whole meeting?" And he responded that they 

were putting in the whole meeting. It took us quite a while 

to figure out that they weren't. 

Part of the problem here is the Government I think tried 

to simplify -- The numbering system last year was very 

confusing for everybody, and I think the Government tried to 

simplify that, which in fact they have, by identifying what 

things are. Whether that is the right way to do it or not, it 

does make it simple, Philly Meeting 1 through 18. And, I 

mean, it took us a long time to figure it out, because it says 

Philly Meeting 1 through 18, we knew there were 24, the 

Government kept saying, "We are putting them all in." So it 

took us a while to figure it all out. 

But it is a whole meeting, and I just wanted to explain 

partly why this is so confusing, because it took a long time 

to kind of -- It is a huge document, and it takes time to sort 

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it out. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, Ms. Hollander did ask me if 

we were putting in the whole thing, and I checked with support 

staff, and I thought the whole thing was going in. Obviously 

I was incorrect. If I can explain how I got to that. 

I did not take the numbering system from last year or 

what we used in the last trial. I decided to start over 

fresh, because Agent Burns wasn't my witness in the last trial 

and I wanted to start with a clean slate. So I went through 

the transcripts and identified the sections that I wanted her 

to testify about as we went through in this court. 

And then, without even thinking about whether the first 

time was in chronological order or not, because I didn't find 

that to be important, I arranged them by more subject matter, 

because, as Agent Burns testified, they jumped around a lot at 

the Philadelphia meeting what they talked about. So I tried 

to put it in some sort of subject matter relevance order. And 

to the best I could we did that. And even when I questioned 

her there was some jumping around as well between transcripts. 

One thing I did do is I stayed basically with the first 

ten or so transcripts, and for the most part left the rest 

alone because we are going to get to that later following the 

sequence of her testimony. So that is what happened.

Clearly the Defense is not prejudiced here. They are the 

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ones who were able to identify that there were six transcripts 

not admitted at this time. Ms. Hollander could have brought 

this to our attention when she asked me and I told her that it 

is my understanding the whole thing is being admitted. We 

could have then sat down and double checked, compared to the 

prior list and what we had. 

Having said all that, it still doesn't get around the 

hearsay argument that Mr. Jacks raised. 

THE COURT: She raised an optional completeness 

issue in terms of -- to give a context. What about that? 

MR. JACKS: Well, Judge, I think it needs to be more 

specific than just this general statement that these, however 

long they are, 30 minutes, you know, however many pages, 15, 

20 pages, needs to come in under rule 106. I believe it has 

got to be a more specific showing that these statements right 

here are completing what is shown over here. I think just 

this global assertion that it all ought to come in under 106 

is woefully insufficient. 

And then to touch on something that Ms. Duncan talked 

about, she says there is two instances where a conversation is 

continued from one tape or one exhibit on to another. Well, 

then maybe those two instances need to be referenced or put in 

sequence or just shown to the jury in sequence using the 

Government's exhibits, but it doesn't require or certainly 

doesn't justify the wholesale submission of all of these 

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transcripts again in what the Defendants claim is 

chronological order.

And again, the Government has the right to put on the 

evidence that it chooses to put on, in the order that it wants 

to put on, with the exhibit labels that it wants to put on, 

and however we choose to do that, and if it is different from 

the previous trial, that is within our prerogative, but it 

doesn't do away with the requirement that in order for the 

Defendants to try to admit somebody else's statements outside 

of court, it doesn't eliminate that requirement that there is 

still a hearsay problem there. And whatever happened in the 

first trial does not change the admissibility or the 

foundation that is still required for them to get these 

exhibits in.

And as I said, I think we need to be careful here about 

broad statements that, "Well, this exhibit will explain that." 

I think we need to ask specifically where -- This gamesmanship 

or holding -- trying to pull a surprise, now is the time to 

say, "This phrase or statement right here on this page 

explains better this statement over here on this." Not just 

this broad, "Well, it is part of this overall conversation." 

And lastly, the answer to the response that Mr. Jonas 

told the jury or had Ms. Burns say that these are all the 

tapes, the answer to that point is, "Well, Ms. Burns, in fact 

aren't there other transcripts of that meeting that have not 

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been introduced?" 

"Yes." 

And that is the end of it. That doesn't mean that all of 

a sudden all of those other tapes become admissible. 

THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Duncan? 

MS. DUNCAN: I will be brief. You know, under rule 

106 it is what ought in fairness to come in. And we have a 

three-day meeting, 18 tapes of which are being brought in. In 

fairness the jury should have the entire meeting to be able to 

put into context the statements that the participants made 

throughout the meeting. 

We are not arguing that these tapes come in because the 

Government introduced them before. We offered that as an 

explanation of why the order that we are putting them in, you 

know. 

And secondly, in terms of the prejudice, the Government 

has said that they thought they were putting them in to begin 

with, so I don't know how they are prejudiced by us now 

putting in that which they say they intended to do from the 

beginning. 

And for us -- We are entitled to comment on how the 

Government introduces evidence, which pieces they choose to 

introduce, and the order they choose to introduce it, because 

in this case we think that that order is misleading, and we 

are entitled to bring that to the attention of the jury. So I 

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think -- I mean -- 

So with the hearsay, you know, it is necessary for the 

jury to be able to make that independent determination of what 

were these people talking about, why were they getting 

together, and they need to have all the tapes to make that 

determination. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Let me just add one thing. The 

Government is backtracking here. The Government told the 

jury, "We are putting in the whole Philadelphia meeting."

THE COURT: But the fact is they didn't.

MS. HOLLANDER: The fact is they didn't. So now 

they are backtracking and saying -- 

THE COURT: I don't know about backtracking. They 

made a mistake. They didn't put it in. By stating that they 

were putting them in, that was a mistake. But that doesn't 

make it admissible. As the Government says, that doesn't make 

the rest of it admissible. There has to be a basis for that. 

And, frankly, I have not read all these transcripts, so I 

will have to take a look at them before I let you get into 

them. I don't have them. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I understand, Your Honor. I mean, I 

am concerned about a couple of things. I mean, I understand 

what you are saying that you haven't looked at them. And I 

will have to go -- You know, I mean, I had I was up to 1:30 in 

the morning putting this together so I could show the jury why 

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the Government's transcripts in the order they are in are 

misleading, and it has to do with statements of my client that 

either partially were introduced or weren't introduced that 

specifically complete other statements. And so you have to 

start with one transcript and go back to another to finish. 

And it would take me a little while to find that for Your 

Honor to show you exactly why these complete --

THE COURT: I will let you do that over the weekend. 

We are not going to take the time now. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, basically -- I mean, that 

means that I have to sit down and think about how I am going 

to cross this witness, because --

THE COURT: Well, if you are through crossing, you 

are through. I am not going to let you waste time, counsel. 

You should have done this and you should have been ready. 

That was one of the reasons I am asking for these exchange of 

exhibits sufficiently in time and then objections so everybody 

can look at this and I can make these rulings. 

But if you don't have anything else to cross on, you can 

sit down and come back Monday and cross if you need to. But 

we are not going to keep this jury sitting here much longer 

and I am not going to let you waste time. 

And I am still trying to understand, once I get those 

conversations, to understand how were you planning on 

establishing this chronology and that the Government's is 

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wrong? Through the witness, just asking her to read all of 

these -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: To read some very specific parts, 

and to read other parts that will show that it is just a 

continuation of the same conversation. And I will have 

to -- I mean, I am not finished with my cross. All I was 

trying to say is I may have to start somewhere else and leave 

this part.

THE COURT: That is what you will need to do. 

MS. HOLLANDER: But it is going to take me a little 

bit of time, which I can do over the weekend, to put it 

together for Your Honor so that -- Because you obviously don't 

want to read 500 pages of the Philly meeting. And I will put 

that together. I will just have to start somewhere else and 

then --

THE COURT: So the entire transcript of the 

Philadelphia meeting is 500 pages? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am guessing, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Roughly. I understand. About how much 

is in? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, you know, they are more or 

less the same size, and 18 of the 24, AND this is the whole 

thing.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Ms. Duncan thinks maybe 50 pages are 

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not in.

THE COURT: Maybe 50 pages are not in? 

MS. DUNCAN: I can actually look, Your Honor, right 

now. 

MS. HOLLANDER: But what I will have to do is spend 

some time organizing it so that I not waste your time.

THE COURT: Right. I mean, you don't have a hearsay 

exception except perhaps the context and the optional 

completeness, so you have to make a showing. Mr. Jacks is 

correct that you just can't globally say, "We want the rest of 

the meeting in." You have to make a showing that there is a 

reason for that context. I can't make that determination -- 

Obviously I will have to make the determination. He doesn't 

think it is proper. You are saying it is. I can't make that 

determination without reading that.

MS. HOLLANDER: I understand, Your Honor. The 

problem arose was we thought they were putting the whole thing 

in and we didn't have to make that showing. So that is where 

the problem arose. 

THE COURT: Well, you can do that over the weekend, 

and then I will need some time after that, of course, to look 

at it. In the meantime, we will just have to skip over that 

and get onto your next issue. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Are there any other issues? My 

other exhibits? Because they asked me about another exhibit. 

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Is there an issue? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I understand from Ms. 

Hollander that she is taking Government's exhibit Illa 

Falistine No. 1 and putting a Defense sticker on it, and she 

is claiming that there are translation differences, and I am 

not quite sure I understand. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, there are translation 

differences. This raises another problem, Your Honor, which 

we discovered quite by accident, and just discovered when we 

were looking at the Illa Falistine and I asked my client to 

translate something, because it looked like something was 

missing.

THE COURT: So how are you going to try to establish 

the difference in the translation? Through the agent? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes. Because we have the 

translation. They are both their translations that -- What 

has happened, and this raises another problem, the Illa 

Falistine ad for the Occupied Land Fund that they put in last 

time on Illa Falistine No. 1 includes a poem. This time they 

have basically air brushed that out, and that is -- It was my 

client who noticed it. So we went back to see what they did 

last time. And it has been translated. And while doing 

that -- 

THE COURT: And both of them are the Government's 

translations? 

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MS. HOLLANDER: Yes, sir. But while doing that, we 

also discovered, because the Government, you will recall, a 

few days ago introduced a poem that they attribute to my 

client. And we looked at that, and it has been translated 

differently. Some of the differences are subtle, but they are 

different. 

THE COURT: So you want to ask her about the two 

different translations made by the Government? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes, sir. And -- Yes. And I am 

going to be asking the Government by letter to let me know if 

there is any others, because there is no way for me to go back 

through these thousands of pages and see if they have 

translated things differently. We found this one just by 

accident. But I do want to show her both the Government 

translations and have her compare them. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I mean, it was during the 

lunch hour that Ms. Hollander pointed out that she is doing 

this with this particular exhibit. In the few minutes that we 

have had, I had a call placed to the translator and I checked 

with the person who pulled the exhibits from the last trial to 

reuse in this trial. What they both told me is there hasn't 

been a single change made to the exhibits. 

All I am asking is let Ms. Hollander -- and I looked for 

our version of it from the last trial, and it wasn't where the 

exhibits that were not using in this trial is, and the reason 

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is because we pulled it from the last exhibits and put it in 

this set of exhibits. 

So I asked Ms. Hollander, "Let me see a copy of what you 

are talking about," and maybe I can figure out whether she is 

right or not in terms of there being translation changes. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, I mean -- 

MS. DUNCAN: I can just -- Your Honor, the other 

translation from the last trial, that exhibit came off of the 

Court's website of admitted exhibits. So that may help you, 

Mr. Jonas. 

MS. HOLLANDER: And I gave you the number of it. 

And Ms. Duncan gave that to Mr. Jacks last night.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: But I mean -- We gave it to him in 

an electronic format. I mean, I can show it to Mr. Jonas. A 

couple of them are very obvious. The missing poem is 

glaringly obvious. 

But I am concerned that if things have been changed 

internally from last time to this time, we have no way to know 

that except if we discover it quite by accident, which this 

was.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I don't think it is proper 

to question Agent Burns about this. I think this is a 

question for the translator if changes were made. 

THE COURT: I think at some level that is right. 

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But if you have the English versions and you have two 

different English versions by the Government, I think she 

probably can point that out through the agent, just because 

that is easy enough to establish, so long they are the English 

translations. And if you want to bring in a translator to 

explain that, or if there is a difference, I think you can do 

that. 

MR. JACKS: Well, Your Honor, I would just ask that 

we be afforded the opportunity to see what the issue is. And 

if there is an explanation, then fine. But just to spring it 

on Agent Burns, who we can't talk to, is unfair. And so the 

fact that she says these are two Government translations that 

are different, I think if we were just asked that, maybe we 

could go find out what the answer is, rather than just asking 

Agent Burns in front of the jury, who may or may not know what 

the answer is. 

But before it is brought out in front of the jury, we 

would like to have the opportunity to investigate what Ms. 

Hollander says, and look at what she is talking about and see 

if --

THE COURT: Do you have those two documents that you 

can show them now? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I do have them, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Do you want to show them? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I can show you this one right here. 

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It is right here. I have -- 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you want to take a look at 

that? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I have this year's and last year's.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, or Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, there is nothing in the 

record that shows that whatever other version was a Government 

version. We may all know that, but that is not in the record 

in front of the jury. That is why I believe that the proper 

thing to do is if she has questions about the translation, 

bring them to us, to the Government, and we will look at it, 

we will check with the translator, and we can find out what 

the answer is to the situation. 

But just from looking at the two differences that she has 

shown here, one of them shows just in brackets, it just says 

"poem," and then another one shows the poem there. Now, is 

that a translation issue, or just that in one version the poem 

was not included and then the other it is? That is not really 

a mistranslation. 

And so I don't believe it is proper to try to confront 

Agent Burns with these discrepancies and imply that the 

Government has somehow changed something or done something 

improper and try to make that point to the jury.

THE COURT: So are you saying that in the last trial 

that document was introduced without the poem? 

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MS. DUNCAN: There is two changes, Your Honor. One 

is at the last trial the poem was included in the translation, 

and it has been omitted in the exhibit that they have 

introduced in this trial. And then the second -- It is part 

of the Holy Land Foundation ad. 

But there is the second issue, there is a poem that they 

claim was written by Mr. Abu Baker, and the translation of 

that poem in the exhibit they introduced last year is 

different from the translation of the poem that they are 

introducing this year. 

And there are portions of the Holy Land ad that they 

included last year and this year where the words are 

different. For example, last year they had a sentence that 

was translated "rebuild a mosque." This year they have 

translated it "refurbish a mosque." So some of the changes 

are a little more substantive than that, but there are these 

subtle changes. 

And in terms of the Government explaining away why there 

were two translation, that is a proper topic for redirect. It 

is not a reason to prevent Ms. Hollander from going into it on 

cross. And she will be establishing that foundation through 

her questions with Agent Burns and, therefore, bringing the 

issue to the jurors' attention.

MR. JACKS: Then, Your Honor, she would need a 

certified copy of the translation from the earlier trial, 

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then. She can't just represent that this is a translation 

from the first trial. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, it is right off the 

Court's website. I mean, I pulled it right off the Court's 

website.

MR. JACKS: She is not a witness, Your Honor, so she 

can't establish the foundation by telling the jury that it 

came off the Court's website. 

Again, Your Honor, it is not about finding out what these 

documents say. It is about trying to catch somebody in a 

mistake. And if the interest is to show what these documents 

say, then let's get to that and let's talk about that. But as 

I said, this gamesmanship to hold back, not deliver these, not 

point out these things that you are going to be bringing up so 

that we are standing here for 30 minutes debating this while 

the jury is waiting, that is the problem, Your Honor. They 

want to spring this on Agent Burns, and really don't have the 

proper foundation to ask her these questions. They are going 

to assume and imply a lot of things in their questions, but 

really they haven't done the proper foundation to use these 

things as evidence in front of the jury. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, this is cross 

examination.

THE COURT: I understand. But still part of what he 

is saying, you have to establish somehow, I guess through 

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Agent Burns by showing to her that this is a previous 

translation prepared by the Government.

MS. HOLLANDER: It has the Government's exhibit 

sticker on it, Your Honor. Now, I was --

THE COURT: But -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: It has the Government's exhibit 

sticker. It came from the Government's website. The 

Government knows that this is exactly what I have said it is.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, let me ask you about it. Do 

you have any disagreement that in fact that is an earlier -- 

MR. JACKS: I don't know, Your Honor, because I 

haven't had time -- 

THE COURT: You keep saying the Government knows, 

but then the Government says, "We don't know," and so there 

isn't agreement. I think if you could establish that in fact 

that is what it is, either through Agent Burns, and she is not 

going to know without you just asking her cold, having the 

exact doesn't establish that Ms. Hollander, in and of itself.

MS. HOLLANDER: Then I would ask Your Honor that the 

Court pull it off the website and certify that it is correct.

THE COURT: No, actually what I want you to do is at 

some point get with the Government and show them where they 

are coming from, so they can satisfy themselves that in fact 

that is a previous government translation. And once that is 

done, then we don't have to worry about where it came from. 

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You can just -- We can agree that that is a previous 

Government translation. We don't have to get into prior trial 

or anything. Just another, whether it is previous or 

whatever, just another Government translation. 

And I think you are entitled to get into that, but you do 

still have to establish that there are two different 

Government translations.

MS. HOLLANDER: I understand.

THE COURT: And you are telling me, "Well, this 

comes off the website," but you are not a witness. That can't 

be established in terms of evidence as far as predicate. And 

so unless you can get Agent Burns to look at that and say, 

"Yes, I know this is a previous Government translation," then 

you are not going to have a predicate. She is not going to 

know, and we are going to be right back where we are spinning 

our wheels.

MS. HOLLANDER: I gave this to the Government 

yesterday, and Mr. Jonas actually emailed me over lunch and 

asked me, "What is the difference and where is the Government 

exhibit?" And I told him the Government number, the previous 

Government number -- 

THE COURT: But how many of these do you have that 

you want to get into? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I have one, Your Honor. I have one. 

I mean, I am concerned that things are getting retranslated.

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THE COURT: You are what? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am concerned that exhibits are 

getting retranslated, and this one we just found by chance. 

But, I mean, the Government knows and could have pulled 

it up and looked at it if there was any question. It 

never -- I have to say, it never occurred to me that the 

Government would think that I have made up a Government 

exhibit from the last trial, that I invented it somehow, as 

opposed to believing that this is the Government exhibit. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas, have you had the opportunity 

to look at that.

MR. JONAS: Other than just what we did now? No. 

It came late in the lunch hour. One thing that we have done 

is we went back to our translator Mr. Shafik, who testified, 

and what he told us--I am hearing this third-hand now from the 

person that called him--he has not changed the translations. 

So Your Honor, we don't have an explanation. I would 

like to investigate to find out if there is a change in the 

translation and what is going on. This could be an earlier 

draft. Just because it is on the Court's website from the 

last trial, there have been mistakes in the Court's website, 

and I don't know if this is one of them or not. So we need to 

check it out. 

THE COURT: But are you disputing that that is a 

Government translation? Or you just don't know. 

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MR. JONAS: I don't know, sir. I don't know. I 

know the translation that is in the exhibit that is admitted 

is a Government translation.

THE COURT: In this case.

MR. JONAS: In this trial. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I think we had it electronically 

from the last trial. I mean, the poem was clearly translated 

again, because there is all kinds of subtle little differences 

in it. One says something has arrived and another says it has 

come. The poetry of it has essentially been effectively 

removed, so it is now very difficult to read in the way it was 

before. 

And part of the Holy Land ad, which is how they 

introduced these, has just vanished. And, you know, we 

literally just discovered this by chance. 

But it never occurred to me, Your Honor, that the 

Government would contest --

THE COURT: Well, they are, and I can't resolve it, 

obviously, with what I have before me, and so I will have to 

make sure that that can be established either to their 

satisfaction or my satisfaction. Ultimately I am going to 

have to make the ruling. If you can satisfy them, then I 

suspect there wouldn't be any objection. But I can't rule on 

that either, so I am not going to let you get into that, at 

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least not now. 

What other area? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, I need a few minutes --

THE COURT: You have had plenty of time, counsel. 

You have had plenty of time. This jury has been waiting 35 

minutes, and I am not going to let them wait much longer. You 

are either ready to go or you are not.

MS. HOLLANDER: I was just going to see whether one 

of my other counsel wanted to go first.

THE COURT: You can do that. I will give you a 

minute.

MS. HOLLANDER: That is all I wanted.

THE COURT: That is fine. You can do that. We just 

need to get moving.

MR. JONAS: Our paralegal checked from the last 

trial, and what we checked the translations are the same as 

the current trial.

THE COURT: Okay. Like I say, we will just have to 

resolve that. 

MS. HOLLANDER: We are just going to change the 

order and see if that will give me time to reorganize this so 

that we don't have to wait.

THE COURT: Right. Okay. Who is up next, then?

MR. WESTFALL: I will go, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And who is after Mr. Westfall? 

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MS. CADEDDU: I am, Your Honor. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Do we need to explain somehow that I 

started to examine her and now we changed? 

THE COURT: That is fine. Do you want to do that, 

that you are going to need to look at some things and we will 

come back with you later on? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Can I do that? 

THE COURT: Yes, since we were hearing from you.

All right. Bring the jury. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Ms. Hollander? 

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Good afternoon, Agent Burns. 

A. Good afternoon.

Q. We have had a slight change of plans to reorganize, and 

one of the other lawyers is going to be asking you questions 

and then I will come back to you later. 

A. Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall?

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Westfall: 

Q. Agent Burns, how is it going?

A. Great, thanks.

Q. I want to first talk to you the organizations, the 

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Palestine fund, the OLF and then the HLF. Okay?

A. Okay.

MR. WESTFALL: May I have this document viewer?

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Okay. The first -- When the 

organization was first begun, it was called the Palestine 

Relief Fund. Isn't that true?

A. That is correct.

Q. And that was in Plainfield, Indiana?

A. That is correct.

Q. And I am showing you what is already in evidence as 

Secretary of State California No. 1. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. This is the articles of incorporation for the 

Occupied Land Fund. Can you see that okay on your screen?

A. Yes, I can.

Q. Okay. And the articles of incorporation are from January 

11, 1989. Isn't that true?

A. Yes.

Q. And the Occupied Land Fund was what the Palestine Relief 

Fund became. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And it became that in January of 1989. 

A. I think it began actually using the name much earlier, 

but by the time they were incorporated they were definitely 

using the name Occupied Land Fund.

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Q. Okay. And then on page 3 actually of the same exhibit is 

an amendment to the articles of incorporation. Isn't that 

true?

A. That is correct.

Q. And this is September 16 of 1991. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it says, "It is hereby amended for the Holy Land 

foundation for Relief and Development." So it was September 

16 of 1991 when the OLF officially became the HLF. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Here at page 3 again, these are the officers of the 

corporation. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And Abdul Odeh wasn't one of the officers of the OLF. 

Right?

A. No, he was not.

Q. And in fact, the entire life of the OLF predated Abdul 

Odeh. 

A. He was not involved, he did not work for the HLF, to my 

knowledge, when they were the Occupied Land Fund.

Q. Right. And he was not in the Philadelphia meeting. 

A. He was not at the Philadelphia meeting, no.

Q. And there is nothing to suggest that he was a member of 

the Palestine Committee. 

A. I think we saw him on a couple of the earlier videotapes 

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in the audience at some of these festivals; however, I have 

not seen him on any documentation as a member of the Palestine 

Committee.

Q. Right. And these videos, though, they weren't Palestine 

Committee videos. They were IAP videos. Right?

A. They were videos of IAP videos, which of course we have 

stated the IAP was part of the Palestine Committee.

Q. Perhaps I am not being clear in my question. The 

Palestine Committee is pretty well set out in those Elbarasse 

documents. Right? And the al-Ashqar documents. 

A. Those lists are not exclusive, but those documents do 

identify a number of members of the Palestine Committee.

Q. And all of those, like the flow charts Ms. Moreno was 

showing you, the organizational charts of the Palestine 

Committee. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Odeh's name is not on those. 

A. No, it is not.

Q. And he is not on the board or an incorporator of the 

UASR. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Not an incorporator of the IAP. 

A. That is correct.

Q. It wasn't even an incorporator of the Holy Land 

Foundation. 

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A. That is correct.

Q. And when I say an incorporator, his name being in the 

articles of incorporation. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Wasn't on the board of directors of the Holy Land 

Foundation. 

A. That is correct.

Q. I am showing you now Secretary of State Texas No. 4. Do 

you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And this is a certificate of authority for a non-profit 

corporation dated November 18, 1992. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And this is when the California corporation, which was 

the Holy Land Foundation, came to Texas. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And Odeh's name is not on this. 

A. It is not.

Q. This is New Jersey -- Secretary of State New Jersey No. 

1, which is already in evidence. Right?

A. I believe it is.

Q. And this is filed June 2nd, 1994. True?

A. That is correct.

Q. And what it is is the same thing we just saw, except for 

New Jersey, when the Holy Land Foundation went to get a 

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certificate of authority to work in New Jersey. 

A. Yes.

Q. And New Jersey is where Odeh worked. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. You said he was the only employee at the New Jersey 

office. 

A. As far as I know he was, yes.

Q. And when they went to get the certificate of authority, 

Odeh is not even on the New Jersey one. Right?

A. He is not on this document, no.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I don't believe that 

document is in evidence. I have no objection if he wants to 

move it into evidence.

MR. WESTFALL: I checked these lists twice. If it 

is not in evidence, do you want me to move it in on your 

behalf? 

May I approach the witness?

THE COURT: Sure.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) I am showing you what is marked -- 

just look and make sure it is the same one that you --

A. I have seen this before.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I move Government's 

Exhibit Secretary of State New Jersey No. 1 into evidence.

MR. JONAS: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

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MR. WESTFALL: I apologize. 

This one is in evidence, isn't it? It is Ashqar Search 

No. 6, which is a phonebook. 

Q. (BY MR. Westfall) Do you want to see the English part?

A. I see what it is. I am waiting for somebody to tell me 

if it is admitted or not.

THE COURT: I don't show it as in evidence. I could 

be off after yesterday afternoon, but I don't show it in, 

counsel.

MR. WESTFALL: Really? Do you want me to move this 

one in? 

Your Honor, let me show it to her. 

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I move for the admission 

of Government's Exhibit Ashqar Search No. 6. 

MR. JONAS: No objection.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, may we approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I didn't cross this witness, 

but may I speak to this objection.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. WESTFALL: I will withdraw the offer.

MR. CLINE: I certainly don't want to interfere with 

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Mr. Westfall's cross, but we have a series of objections to 

these Ashqar exhibits on FISA grounds and hearsay grounds and 

all kinds of other grounds.

MR. WESTFALL: And I will withdraw the offer.

THE COURT: All right. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I withdraw the offer of 

Ashqar Search No. 6.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. WESTFALL: Lest I get beat up. 

May I confer with Mr. Jonas?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Is it safe to say that Abdul Odeh is 

not in Mr. Ashqar's phonebook?

A. I did not see his name in there, no.

Q. Okay. And then this here is Mr. Marzook's phonebook. 

A. I am sorry. I thought you were asking me about Marzook's 

phonebook.

Q. Mr. Ashqar's phonebook. Ashqar had one, too, that they 

got out of his house in '93. 

A. The document we are not bringing in? 

Q. Exactly. 

A. I don't think so.

Q. Okay. And then this one here is the Marzook's phonebook. 

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He is not in Mr. Marzook's phonebook?

A. I don't recall seeing his name in there.

Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you what I am convinced is in 

evidence is Holy Land Search No. 2.

A. Okay.

Q. And this is kind of a spreadsheet of all of the 

employees, at least all the employees of Holy Land that are on 

this sheet. Right?

A. I wouldn't want to say it is all the employees, but it is 

a list of HLF employees.

Q. That is why I said at least all of them on this sheet. 

A. Right.

Q. Here is another one where I kind of highlighted the line 

where Abdul Odeh is. 

A. Okay.

Q. He was the New Jersey representative. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. This is another one where -- You mentioned also -- It is 

the same thing. I have just done some highlighting on it. 

You mentioned also there were several different state 

representatives at I guess different times. Right?

A. Yes. The HLF had representatives in some states. In 

some states it had offices. So there was a difference.

Q. So here Abdullatif Alkosari who looks like -- The MI, is 

that Michigan?

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A. It is.

Q. And then Abdul Odeh. And Ahmad Hatem in Florida. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then this one here is a California representative?

A. Yes.

Q. And I think you even mentioned Kifah Mustapha who is the 

Illinois representative?

A. That is correct.

Q. So there -- He is one of eight representatives that are 

on this page, I guess. Right?

A. That looks about right. I didn't count them, but it 

looks about right.

Q. And this was the Holy Land Foundation Search No. 1. Do 

you remember this? This came in your first day. 

A. I do.

Q. And this is called a service agreement, but it is an 

agreement between Abdul Odeh and Shukri Baker as to what his 

job would be. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And I want to talk about it a little bit.

A. Okay.

Q. Now, I am going to zoom it in some and we will move down 

the document. This will make it easier to see.

First of all, it looks like he has agreed to a monthly 

fee of $2,079. Roughly would be $25,000 a year; a little less 

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than $25,000 a year. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And then these are sort of the things that he has agreed 

to do, or at least the duties that are set out. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Is to manage the HLF office in New Jersey; to build and 

develop public relations in the New York and New Jersey area; 

to market and present HLF literature, programs, and projects?

A. That is correct.

Q. And solicit specific donations on behalf of HLF and to 

facilitate HLF guest needs, which basically translated to 

running speakers around. Right?

A. He was the person responsible for the HLF speakers when 

they came into the area.

Q. Get them from the airport and get them to the mosque. 

And that was Abdul who was doing that?

A. And I believe he was also responsible for getting them 

set up with the venues where they were supposed to speak and 

things like that.

Q. It looks like, at least initially, we were on like an 

independent contractor status. Yes, he had to report to the 

headquarters. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Mohammad El-Mezain supervised his work and issued 

specific instructions. And then we know at some point he 

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became an employee. 

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I gave you a notebook, and would you please look in 

it? I did that so hopefully it will make it easier on you. 

It has got two exhibits in it. One is No. 1016 and one is 

No. 204, and they are separated by those tabs. 

A. Okay.

Q. And those are both exhibits, those are both documents 

that you have seen before. 

A. I definitely recognize this one on top.

Q. Take a look at that No. 204 there. Does it have the HLDL 

bates stamp on it?

A. It does. I have seen it before, but I am not really 

fresh on what is in here. So if you want to ask me questions, 

I would like to look into it.

Q. I have to get it in evidence first. Does it appear to be 

Abdul Odeh's personnel file?

A. It does.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, at this time I will move 

for admission of Defendants' 1016 and Defendants' 204. 

MR. JONAS: No objection.

THE COURT: Those are admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Let's go to No. 1016 first. 

A. Okay. 

Q. Now, it -- And I am looking at HLF Search again. Okay?

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A. Okay.

Q. And it said here that "Will present monthly reports of 

all activities," but what ended up happening was weekly 

reports. 

A. During the time period of this exhibit it appears that he 

was giving weekly reports.

Q. And the exhibit we are talking about there is No. 1016. 

A. That is correct.

Q. I would like to go through some of those weekly reports 

with you. 

A. Okay.

Q. So go to page 12. And I am going to put this on the 

document viewer, too, in case you --

A. Okay.

Q. Now, this is pages 12 and 13. Let me go out so you can 

see it. And this is one of the weekly reports. Right?

A. It is.

Q. And it has two pages, and we will go through these in a 

sec?

A. Okay. 

Q. This particular weekly report covers the period of time 

from June 1st to June 7th of 1996. True?

A. That is what it says, yes.

Q. And on this first section we have an overview of office 

hours and revenue generated for the week. 

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A. Correct.

Q. That is what it says?

A. That is what it says.

Q. And here we have a section where Odeh had to -- how many 

times did he contact the headquarters office during the week. 

So he apparently had to keep track how often he called 

headquarters on this sheet. 

A. I don't know if he had to, but obviously he did in this 

instance.

Q. Okay. And then "what was it regarding when you called," 

that is also on the sheet. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Here in the office, office work, we just see I guess kind 

of general stuff where he had to keep track of hours and such. 

Right?

A. Again, I don't know if he had to, but he did.

Q. Right. And the second page has some other categories. 

One is field work, and displaying a booth in the masjid that 

means mosque. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. So displaying a booth at a mosque or another place of 

worship. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And then a coin collection, you know that he had coin 

boxes in different places where he had to tend to. 

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A. Yes, you are correct.

Q. Like stores, grocery stores and such?

A. Things like gas stations where they would place the coin 

boxes for donations.

Q. And keep track of the needy family sponsorships and 

orphan sponsorships and mailing lists, sending new names down 

to headquarters so they can get on the list. 

A. Correct.

Q. Now, this is June 7th of '96. It references a trip to 

Egypt. Now, Odeh went to Egypt and took a relief mission to a 

U.N. Camp there, didn't he?

A. He did.

Q. And that was called the Canada Camp.

A. I believe that is correct.

Q. This is page 18 out of the same exhibit. You see here 

where he contacted the headquarters about orphans?

A. I see that.

Q. Now, when Odeh would contact the headquarters about 

orphans, the person he would talk to is Ibrahim al-Samnah Does 

that name ring a bell?

A. That does. He was an officer at the HLF.

Q. And he was like the orphan director?

A. At one point he was, yes.

Q. Which means that he was the one that I guess stayed in 

touch with Palestine and got the orphan applications. Does 

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that make sense?

A. I believe at one time that was part of his duties, but I 

am not -- I haven't looked at that in a while, so I don't know 

exactly what he did in obtaining the orphan sponsorship, but I 

believe his exact title was social services director.

Q. All right. And the orphans that the Holy Land Foundation 

represented, I mean, you have seen the records of all the 

orphan applications that are in those 500 boxes of bankers 

boxes, haven't you?

A. I have seen a number of lists of orphans.

Q. There was orphans there not only from Palestine but also 

from Kosovo. Right?

A. I am trying to recall. I know they did administer aid in 

Kosovo at one time, but I don't recall specifically seeing an 

orphan's list from Kosovo. There may have been one, but I 

don't recall offhand.

Q. And there was also Jordan?

A. I recall seeing some orphans lists from Jordan in the 

boxes.

Q. And also from south Lebanon?

A. I recall seeing some from Lebanon.

Q. And they did a number of other things outside of 

Palestine, like Bosnia. They did some relief work in Bosnia?

A. They did some.

Q. Now, this is page 20 of the same exhibit. You see here 

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where it says "quarterly meeting and the headquarters."

A. I do.

Q. Odeh would go four times a year to Dallas for these 

meetings at headquarters, wouldn't he?

A. I have seen records indicating he traveled to Dallas for 

the meetings. I don't know if he always traveled four times a 

year or if there were more or less, but generally he traveled 

to headquarters for meetings.

Q. Right. And in fact, AMEX 1 in evidence. AMEX 1, page 

30, if you want to pull that up or take my word for it, that 

is Shukri's and the HLF American Express bill, AMEX 1. 

A. That is what AMEX 1 is. That is correct. That is the 

HLF AMEX records, the set we talked about yesterday.

Q. Page 30, it says A. Odeh, and says Newark to Dallas, 

Dallas to Newark where it says HLF bought him plane tickets to 

come to Dallas. 

A. I have to take the word for the page numbers, but I have 

seen the records where they paid for his plane ticket.

Q. Under here there is this a thing here called ICNA 

convention. Now, that is the Islamic Circle of North America. 

Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And they would have conventions, maybe not the exact same 

ones that we have seen these videos of, but there was a number 

of different organizations that had conventions where speakers 

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would come in and they would have dinner and fund-raise. 

Right?

A. I have not seen any videotapes of ICNA conventions that I 

can recall, so I am not sure exactly what they did at their 

conventions, but I am sure they had fundraising activities at 

their conventions.

Q. Right. But there was ICNA and MAYA and the IAP?

A. In the early years I think MAYA and IAP were the ones -- 

Are you asking specifically about HLF, or are you asking about 

ICNA? I just want to be clear.

Q. I am just asking about in general there are more than 

just the IAP that had conventions. And, I mean, if you know 

you know. But like here is a reference to the ICNA 

convention. You know that ICNA has conventions. Right?

A. Yes. I know -- Well, I have not seen any videos of them, 

so, I mean, I understand from paperwork like this that ICNA 

did hold conventions, but I have not seen any videos of them.

Q. And you know that Odeh would go and work at these 

conventions. Right?

A. Are we talking about all of them or just the ICNA.

Q. At least the ones where he said he worked. You know he 

worked at conventions. 

A. I do know he worked at conventions.

Q. On behalf of the Holy Land Foundation. 

A. Yes.

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MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, may I approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) I show you Defendants' No. 697?

A. Okay.

Q. Is that a photograph?

A. It is a photograph.

Q. And is that a photograph containing your bates label that 

you all put on everything?

A. It does. It was seized in the HLF search warrant.

Q. And that photograph there, I mean, you recognize the Holy 

Land Foundation logo across the top of this booth. 

A. That is their logo, yes.

Q. Okay.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I move for admission of 

Defendants' 697. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, based upon our previous 

objection, we are going to object.

THE COURT: You have that objection. I have 

overruled that. No. 697 is admitted.

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Now, I am going to put No. 697, which 

is that photograph we were just talking about, on the elmo. 

Can you see this okay?

A. I do.

Q. It is a little bit washed out. But see how it has got 

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the Holy Land Foundation across the top there are?

A. I do.

Q. And these are all photographs. And you see, does it look 

like handicrafts and stuff there on the desk, on the table?

A. The screens on these monitors are not the best, but that 

is what it appears to be.

Q. Okay. And this is the type of booth that the Holy Land 

-- In fact, this is an exact booth that the Holy Land would 

set up at these conventions. 

A. I never saw the booths that they set up at the 

conventions, and I know this picture came from the HLF search 

warrant material and it is of a booth, but as far as if that 

is what they set up at the conventions, I never saw one so I 

don't know if that is what they look like or not.

Q. Okay. So back to No. 1016 here, on Friday 7/5 traveled 

to Fong Valley to attend the ICNA convention. 

A. I see that.

Q. And you have seen this photograph before, haven't you?

A. I have.

Q. Okay. Here is pages 22 and 23 of the same exhibit. He 

is writing down that he has called the home office again about 

the ICNA convention, and then on page 23 displayed the booth 

during the community activity which was the ICNA. 

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Now, this is page 26 of this same thing. We are up to 

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July of 1996 now. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And he is calling now and he is putting in his report 

that he is asking for an orphan from Nablus. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And in the work that you have done and what you have seen 

in the 500 boxes, it is not unusual for a person who is going 

to sponsor an orphan to request a particular type of orphan. 

A. I have seen that donors request specific type of orphans.

Q. Right. And also request, "I want an orphan who is a 

girl," or "I want an orphan who comes from Palestine," or "I 

want an orphan who comes from a specific place in Palestine."

A. I have seen them make specific requests, yes.

Q. Here on page 28 now, he is calling the headquarters or 

writing down that he has called the headquarters because 

somebody has asked for a martyr's family, specifically a 

shahid's family?

A. Correct.

Q. And we see that also, don't we?

A. Yes, we do.

Q. And when we are talking about a martyr's family, from 

what we have seen in I guess the advertising and such that the 

Holy Land did, we are talking about like, for instance, the 

al-Aqsa massacre. Which I am not going to ask you if you are 

familiar with that, other than have you seen references to 

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that in like the literature, in their materials?

A. I have seen references to it.

Q. Okay. And the al-Ibrahimi mosque massacre. And these 

are things that would fall under the definition of martyr. 

A. I have seen that they do reference some of those 

individuals as martyrs, as well as other individuals like bomb 

makers' children.

Q. Here two weeks in a row where he is calling and asking 

for orphans. We see this all over the place, don't we? I 

mean, these orphans -- Mr. Odeh, I mean, that was one of his 

job duties was to have people to get sponsors for orphans. 

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Here is page 34 of the same exhibit. He is about to 

start work with -- start doing another convention. This one 

is an IAP convention. 

A. It says an IAP activity so -- Let's see. Hold on. It is 

an activity in the mosque. I don't know that it would be 

considered a convention, but it was an IAP activity.

Q. Right. And, you know, we have seen the ICNA now and the 

IAP and talked about the MAYA. Those were the ones who really 

had the conventions. Right?

A. I don't know about ICNA conventions until later in the 

'90s, but I know in the late '80s early '90s that MAYA was one 

of the organizations in this community that held yearly 

conventions at which the HLF participated and that the IAP 

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held festivals, what they called festivals, during that time 

period, and that in approximately 1994 the IAP began to have 

its own yearly convention at which the HLF participated. I 

have not seen information about ICNA conventions during that 

time period. There may have been some, but --

Q. But I think you just said it there, that the IAP had the 

convention and then HLF participated. 

A. That is correct.

Q. There is one where this fellow I mentioned to you, 

Ibrahim al-Samnah that is probably who he is referring to 

there. He calling and asking Ibrahim about orphans. 

A. Ibrahim al-Samnah the HLF handled social services, so 

that would stand to reason, but I don't know that that is for 

sure who it is.

Q. Chances are. But there was also people who would call 

and specifically request like a martyr's child or martyr's 

family. "I specifically want to sponsor a martyr's family."

A. Yes.

Q. You know, in addition, let me also -- In addition to the 

orphan sponsorships, there also were family sponsorships. 

A. There were.

Q. And there were needy child sponsorships?

A. Correct.

Q. And there were student sponsorships. Right?

A. That is correct.

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Q. Eid gifts -- Do you know what Eid is?

A. Like a holiday. They were -- Yes.

Q. Breaking of the end of Ramadan is the Eid. 

A. One of them.

Q. And the Holy Land Foundation would also go out and 

distribute gifts for that as well. 

A. According to the documentation that I have seen, that is 

what they did.

Q. And they would also do food packages. 

A. Food packages were one of their programs that they had 

listed in their documentation.

Q. And school bags and school books and stuff like that?

A. Those were also listed, yes.

Q. Here is one, page 56. Someone is asking specifically 

asking about the orphans from the Aqsa massacre. 

A. Actually based on this time frame, which was in 1996, I 

don't think that would be the al-Aqsa massacre. That was more 

likely another event that happened. There was an uprising in 

1996 and people were killed during that uprising. I think 

that would probably be what that is referencing. I can't say 

for sure, but I know that the massacre that you are 

referencing happened many, many years before this.

Q. Really? All I am asking about is what is on the paper. 

What do you know about the al-Aqsa massacre?

A. Well, I don't know which one that is referencing. If we 

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are talking about the time period in September of 1996, which 

is right after that, there was an uprising that occurred as a 

result of some tunnels around the al-Aqsa mosque, and fighting 

broke out and many of the people who were fighting ended up 

getting killed.

Q. Here we are talking about a MAYA convention. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And this would be an example I guess of Odeh, one of his 

job duties being to take speakers around. 

A. That is correct.

Q. This is page 76 of the same exhibit, and here he 

references leaving on 1/15/97 and traveling to Jordan. Do you 

see that?

A. I do.

Q. And in 1997, which is this, he went to Jordan and went 

and visited more U.N. refugee camps?

A. I know he traveled to Jordan for the HLF on their behalf 

to administer aid, but I do not recall which camps he visited 

or if he actually visited camps.

Q. Okay. And then this, did you know he went to Jordan 

twice in that year of 1997? You knew he made two trips to 

Jordan. Right?

A. I recall that he made one and possibly two, but I don't 

know the dates of those.

Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to doubt, though, that '97 

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is the correct year?

A. No, I do not.

Q. Now, let's move along -- 

A. Okay.

Q. -- into No. 204. 

A. Okay. 

Q. And this is Odeh's personnel file. And there were a 

number of people at the Holy Land Foundation that Abdul had to 

answer to that -- what I am trying to get to is where he is in 

the hierarchy. Okay? 

A. Okay.

Q. Obviously he had to answer to Shukri. 

A. Yes.

Q. And obviously he had to answer to El-Mezain. 

A. That is correct.

Q. This is page 8. These page numbers are in the lower left 

hand corner. He also had to answer to Akram Mishal. Right?

A. I am sorry. Bear with me, because I think -- My copies 

the page numbers are really light so -- I think I have it.

Q. Do you have it?

A. I think I did find it. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. It is a June 16, 1998 letter. Obviously he had to 

answer to Akram Mishal. Right?

A. He was also one of the directors at the HLF, yes.

Q. This is Haitham Maghawri. And he was also one of his 

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bosses. 

A. I don't know if you would consider him a boss, but 

obviously he had some type of authority, based on this, over 

Mr. Odeh's activities.

Q. Now, in addition to the Egypt and Jordan we already 

talked about -- Well, let me do this, first of all. Please go 

to page 76. 

A. Okay. Can you tell me what the title of the page is, 

because I am not seeing my page numbers down here.

Q. Are you really not?

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach, Your Honor? I can 

help her out. 

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: Unless I am missing it.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Also I can just put this on the 

document camera. This would be Odeh's resume. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it shows him he came over from Kuwait in 1982 to the 

United States. 

A. Yes. It indicates he was in Kuwait from 1977 through 

1982.

Q. And of course he became a U.S. citizen in the '80s. 

Right?

A. He did.

Q. And then the previous page, this is the last page of his 

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employment application with the Holy Land Foundation. 

A. Correct.

Q. And it shows his date of employment to be 2/1/94. 

A. That is what it says.

Q. And this spreadsheet kind of -- It says 1/1/94. 

A. It did.

Q. But it was 2/1/94. There is no question that he became 

an employee on 2/1/94, is there.

A. That is the date that this document is signed that 

indicates February 1st, 1994.

Q. Right. That is also the date of the service agreement as 

well. 

A. It was. Correct.

Q. Now, I want to -- I didn't make a copy of this for you. 

I want to go to HLF Search No. 94. 

A. Okay.

Q. And what it is is the Sultan Mahmoud mailer. 

A. Okay.

Q. Okay? And on page 6 of that is this letter. And this is 

a letter that the Holy Land Foundation sent, and it is a 

fundraising letter. Right?

A. Correct. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am not sure this one is 

in.

MR. WESTFALL: Yes, it is. 

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MR. JONAS: What is the exhibit number? 

MR. WESTFALL: HLF 94. 

MR. JONAS: Sorry.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Okay. What this is talking about is 

the situation in Kosovo where all the refugees were running 

away from the Serbs from Slobodan Milosevic. Wouldn't you 

agree?

A. That is correct.

Q. And this particular humanitarian mission, the Kosovo 

mission, Abdul Odeh went to Kosovo and worked on that. 

A. I believe that he did, yes.

Q. And when he went there, he took flour and a bread machine 

and facilitated them being able to make their own bread. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And he also took two ambulances, or they called them 

mobile clinics, ambulances like the EMTs use, with all the 

stuff in them. 

A. I don't know what they had in them, but I saw that they 

did take some ambulances.

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) I am showing you No. 750, No. 491, and 

then No. 1005. 

A. Okay.

Q. On No. 1005, do you recognize the Holy Land Foundation 

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logo?

A. I do.

Q. And you have seen that picture before?

A. Yes.

Q. And on the other two, do you recognize Abdul Odeh in both 

of those pictures?

A. I do.

Q. And you have seen those before?

A. I have.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, we move for admission of 

Defendants' Exhibits No. 491, 750, and 1005. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, the same objections.

THE COURT: Okay. Those are overruled and those 

exhibits are admitted.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) This is Exhibit No. 750. And is that 

Abdul Odeh there?

A. It is.

Q. And of course, Kosovo is not in the Middle East. It is 

in eastern Europe. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And you recognize Abdul Odeh here?

A. I do.

Q. And then this is the New Jersey office. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you know that in 1999 Abdul opened a pantry up there. 

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A. I can't recall a specific date, but he did open a pantry 

for the HLF.

Q. Right. And you know this was a pantry where people would 

come to get food. 

A. I think that was the stated purpose.

Q. Okay. And you know that people did go there and get 

food?

A. I have seen videotape of its opening. I don't know that 

people came there on a regular basis. I don't know a lot of 

details about the pantry other than the opening of it.

Q. You said you have seen a videotape?

A. I have.

Q. And you wouldn't know just from looking at the DVD, I 

don't guess.

MR. WESTFALL: May we approach for a second, Your 

Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. WESTFALL: This is the video that she just said 

she had seen, and we didn't get a chance to talk about my 

videos because I ended up cross examining a lot faster than I 

thought I would. This is the video of the pantry opening that 

she just said she has seen before, and I would like to move it 

into evidence.

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MR. JONAS: This is the problem. She saw it during 

the cross examination last year. I don't know if there is any 

evidence that she has seen it outside of last year's trial, 

and that doesn't authenticate it. And she maybe can recognize 

Odeh or El-Mezain on it, but she can't talk about what is 

going on other than Mr. Westfall leading her through it, as 

with the pictures where all she can say is what just went into 

evidence "That is Odeh." But Mr. Westfall through his 

questioning not even suggested, he said, "This is in Kosovo." 

She can't say that, so there is this impression being left to 

the jury about facts that Agent Burns isn't testifying to, and 

that is the problem. 

THE COURT: How long is this video?

MR. WESTFALL: Well, it is actually a whole lot 

longer than what I would publish. I would like to put the 

video in now.

THE COURT: Can she identify that as -- I know she 

has seen it, but did she identify -- She could tell that was 

the opening of that pantry?

MR. WESTFALL: She did last year. I have a record 

of her doing it. Now, what we did last year was gave her the 

cassette tape, because it was one that they seized, and this 

is a DVD minute-to-minute recording of that one that they 

seized, and we gave her the videotape, let her have it 

overnight, she watched it, she made herself satisfied that is 

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what it was, and the next day I came in, put it in actually 

without objection. And so yeah, she has seen or at least told 

me she has seen the whole thing the night before when I gave 

it to her. And Exhibit No. 993 is the same Exhibit No. 993 

that we put in last year. 

THE COURT: And she testified that she could tell 

that this was from that opening of the pantry. And how much 

do you intend to play?

MR. WESTFALL: Maybe five minutes of it.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. If you can get her to 

establish that, I will let you do that. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: What exhibit number is this, again, 

counsel.

MR. WESTFALL: This is Exhibit No. 993, Your Honor.

May I approach? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) This is a DVD, and there was a time 

when you -- First of all, this was a tape -- The original 

videotape was a tape that you all seized, or a tape that you 

all had in your possession. Isn't that true? The pantry 

videotape?

A. I am not sure. I would have to see the original 

videotape to tell you if it was part of what was seized or 

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not. 

MR. Westfall: May I, Your Honor, refresh her 

recollection? May I approach? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Did that refresh your recollection 

that you had seen it before?

A. I remember that I did see it, but I just didn't recall 

where it came from, but that reminds me that it did come from 

the search warrant.

Q. Okay. So now you know it came originally from you all's 

possession, and that is the DVD of that?

A. That is correct.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I move for admission of 

Defendants' No. 993.

THE COURT: Same objection, and that has been 

overruled. You may display a bit of that. That is admitted.

MR. WESTFALL: And I won't publish this at this time 

because I don't have it queued up in my computer, so I will 

press on and do that after a bit. 

THE COURT: Okay.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Now, you mentioned to maybe it was Ms. 

Moreno the number of FISA wiretaps that there were, didn't 

you?

A. We spoke about it, I believe.

Q. You said there was a wiretap on Shukri?

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A. That is correct.

Q. That was about nine years?

A. I believe that one was shorter because I believe it 

started in '94, '95, and I think it ended in 2001. But again, 

I was not here so I am -- The dates are estimates, so bear 

with me.

Q. And I was thinking about Mr. El-Mezain. It was Mr. 

El-Mezain's that was about nine or ten years.

A. I believe that is correct. I think it started in '94 and 

ended in approximately 2003.

Q. And then Shukri's was about five or six years?

A. That is correct.

Q. And these -- And then the Holy Land was also surveilled 

for how many years?

A. It was a couple of years later on, but I am not sure of 

the exact date. I think it was around 2000, 2001.

Q. These FISAs, these run, as long as you have them, they 

run 24 hours a day, don't they?

A. Yes.

Q. And they go in three-month increments?

A. I am not sure about that. I have never administered a 

FISA myself. I worked the criminal side.

Q. But when they do run, like they did for nine or ten 

years, or whatever, it is 24 hours a day seven days a week. 

A. That is correct.

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Q. And so literally thousands, tens of thousands of hours of 

conversation can be caught in this many FISA lines running. 

Wouldn't you agree?

A. With the number of FISA lines we had and the time frame, 

there were thousands of calls.

Q. It is like, I guess, one year at 24 hours a day seven 

days a week is almost 9,000 hours, just that. 

A. I guess. I would probably need a calculator to calculate 

the number of hours.

Q. The language specialist then goes through and summarizes 

certain calls for you. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you don't speak Arabic?

A. That is correct.

Q. And he summarizes them, or whoever it is summarizes them 

in English. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And then you get the summary and you review them?

A. That is correct.

Q. And in this case you have reviewed up to -- upwards of 

10,000 summaries?

A. Probably close to it. 

MR. Westfall: At this time, Your Honor, I would 

like to move into evidence Defendants' 1350. 

MR. JONAS: No objection, Your Honor.

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THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) And one of those calls that you have 

testified to in court was El-Mezain Wiretap No. 2. 

A. Correct.

Q. And this is the call where Abdul Odeh is calling Mohammad 

El-Mezain about doing something in Oklahoma City. 

A. That is correct.

Q. I would like to just read through this call again. 

A. Okay.

Q. And I will be Abdul and you be Mr. El-Mezain. 

A. Okay. 

"Hello?"

Q. "Peace be with you."

A. "Peace and God's mercy."

Q. "How are you, Sheik?"

A. "Good. May God bless you."

Q. "How are you?"

A. May God give you strength."

Q. "A little while ago I spoke with Shukri."

A. "Hmm."

Q. "So I don't know. I suggested to him that we must do 

something regarding this crisis in Oklahoma City."

A. "What do you want to do?"

Q. "If they can go there, distribute water to those who work 

there, send telegrams of condolence to the families of the 

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children who died or stuff, it is a good opportunity, Sheik, 

for us to be highlighted that we do something in America."

A. "Okay. Let the -- let them study the matter from over 

there."

Q. "Huh? No, I was just making a suggestion. They are not 

going to respond to us immediately, but --"

A. "Let the people --"

Q. "Because we said in the past in a meeting, my brother, 

that we must do something in America or contact the American 

Red Cross and tell them, 'Come, we would like to offer,' 

because they showed in the news that they are distributing 

food and water."

A. "Yes."

Q. "So why can't the Holy Land come, for instance, stand and 

distribute water and stuff?"

A. "It is close distance to them."

Q. "It is close to them. A four-hour car ride."

A. "They won't allow them."

Q. "Huh?"

A. "They won't allow them in the present time."

Q. "Okay. How about contacting the families of the children 

who died?"

A. "Yes. We can send cards or send something."

Q. "Yes. I mean, if we can benefit from the matter."

A. "It will be good, God's willing."

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Q. Now, Defendants' 1350 is the exhibit I just put into 

evidence, and this is actually more of the conversation. I 

would like to finish it up. 

A. Okay.

Q. And this is -- I will start here. 

"Yes. I mean, if we can benefit from the matter." 

"It will be good, God's willing." Through the 

highlighted part. 

"Okay. You think about the matter."

A. "God's willing. God's willing."

Q. "It's like we're here. We are an American organization, 

and we're supposed to not only send stuff over there, but help 

stuff over here as well."

A. "God's willing, it will happen."

Q. "Anyway, this is what I see. Maybe --"

A. "May God honor you."

Q. "You guys are more aware of these things. It will be 

good."

A. "We will do something, God's willing."

Q. "I mean, just to improve things over here in the country. 

What's wrong with you? You sound tired." 

And that is the end. 

And the pantry, of course, was helping people in this 

country also. In New Jersey. Right? 

A. I don't really know how to answer that, because I don't 

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know a lot about the pantry. I know that the documents state 

they opened a pantry there and, as we said, I have seen the 

opening video but I don't know specifically what aid they 

administered to whom.

Q. Did you also see that the Holy Land Foundation helped 

with the floods in Iowa?

A. They may have. I don't recall.

Q. And of course, this Oklahoma deal, they did quite a bit 

more than just send $5,000. 

A. As we talked about, they sent money and they had a blood 

drive and did some other things.

Q. And some folks actually did go up there?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Now, there has been a couple of references made to how 

much material -- how many boxes of things that you have as a 

result of this investigation. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it is somewhere between 500 and 600 bankers boxes. 

A. That is correct.

Q. In addition to that, I think there is thousands of 

videotapes. 

A. Video and audiotapes, yes.

Q. Video and audiotapes. And taken out of Mr. Odeh's office 

up in New Jersey, I think we are looking at about 45 or 50 

boxes right there. 

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A. I think that is correct.

Q. Plus videotapes and whatnot?

A. Correct.

Q. I want to show you a picture that I know is in evidence.

MR. WESTFALL: May I confer with --

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: For the record, this is the picture, 

this picture here that you talked about yesterday.

A. Yes.

Q. It was yesterday afternoon. Right?

A. I believe it was.

Q. Okay. And this is the one with Qaradawi and Nasrallah 

and Khalid Mishal?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, this picture was found somewhere in Odeh's office. 

A. That is correct.

Q. It was in one of those 45 or 50 boxes that you all have?

A. It was in one of the boxes, yes.

Q. And it has obviously been torn out of a newspaper. 

A. Correct.

Q. And I guess in the translation it mentions that it is a 

Reuters photo. 

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Reuters is one of those international news agencies, like 

AP. 

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A. It is.

Q. Do you have any idea when that is from, the photograph?

A. If I recall, it was from around 2000. I know it was 

seized in 2001, but we would need to look at it again to see 

if there was something on it to indicate the date.

Q. Didn't it say something about the Islamic conference in 

Beirut, Lebanon, something like that?

A. It did reference a conference in Beirut, Lebanon, but I 

can't recall if it referenced which conference. I know for 

sure it was seized in December of 2001.

Q. I can help you out on this, because I do have the 

translation. 

A. Okay.

Q. The Islamic National Conference in Beirut on Friday, 

Reuters. The Islamic National Conference in Beirut, I guess 

that is where the picture was taken?

A. That would be, but there is no date noted on it so I am 

not sure of the date.

Q. Do you know anything about that Islamic National 

Conference in Beirut?

A. I don't know which one. I know of a Jerusalem Foundation 

Conference in January of 2001, but I don't know if that is the 

same conference, so I wouldn't want to speculate on that.

Q. This is HLF Search No. 31? 

A. Correct.

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Q. And this is the original of it. Now, this appears to be 

from 1990. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Published by the Islamic Association for Palestine?

A. Correct.

Q. It gives some facts about Yassin.

Do you know how if you have something thumbtacked to your 

wall, it makes little holes?

A. Yes.

Q. There is no holes that would lead you to believe this was 

thumbtacked to the wall, is there?

A. I don't see any holes in it.

Q. And you know how if you have something framed how you get 

little fade marks around the edges?

A. I don't know about that. But it was not in a frame when 

we seized it, if that is what you are asking.

Q. Okay. So this flier, I guess, was in the files in his 

office, like that Nasrallah picture?

A. I don't know exactly where it was in his office.

Q. From 1990. 

A. That is correct.

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have the original of HLF 

Search No. 14?

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Okay. This here is HLF Search No. 14. 

A. Correct.

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Q. You discussed this yesterday as a booklet. This is of 

course in Arabic. 

A. It was, yes.

Q. Now, the translation is the Jihadist School, and it 

speaks about this Izz el-Din al-Qassam. 

A. Correct.

Q. Have you read this translation?

A. I have.

Q. Mr. Al-Qassam was born in Syria in 1871. 

A. That is what it says.

Q. According to this book. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And in all of the -- It kind of gives the history of him, 

what he did. In 1885 at the age of 14, went to Egypt. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it discusses, you know, this treaty of 1916, the 

history of this, and kind of ends in the '40s, the early '40s, 

something like that. 

A. I believe that is correct.

Q. And did you notice that in this entire translation the 

word Israel doesn't appear one time?

A. I didn't look for the word Israel.

Q. This guy fought against the British. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Back in the British mandate, which was -- This is a 

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history book, I guess. Right?

A. The title of it is I believe the Jihadist School, so it 

is the history of this individual.

Q. By the way, at the end it has, and you testified to this, 

this Palestine Relief Fund. 

A. Correct.

Q. And so that would have had at least been prior to 1989. 

A. Correct.

Q. This is HLF Search No. 109. 

A. Okay.

Q. This is a copy of it. Now, this is -- The copy in the 

English numbering that you all did down at the bottom, it 

appears to be roughly 250 pages long. 

A. Okay. I don't have a copy in front of me, but I see -- 

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) So it may be 260 pages long?

A. Something like that.

Q. Roughly?

A. Roughly.

Q. And of that we have eight pages of translation, if you 

count the title page. 

A. I think that is correct. I can't remember specifically 

which one this is based on the cover. If I could look at the 

title page in English, it would help me remember which one it 

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is.

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: Okay.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) And since you don't speak Arabic, 

obviously somebody else translated it for you. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And this is called the Palestinian Intifada in the Hebrew 

Press, and I think you said yesterday a Study About Hamas, 

which is I guess the subtitle. And this was published in 1991 

by the UASR. 

A. Correct.

Q. And in it you actually published--or you -- Yeah, you 

published, you read part of this to the jury and it is a 

reporter speaking with Sheikh Yassin. 

A. Correct.

Q. And this was Radio Israel on 9/23/89. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Where he is giving this statement. And it talks about 

when Hamas was established. And I don't know how far you 

read. You didn't read all of it though. Right?

A. I believe we stopped after -- because Mr. Jonas was 

asking me about the Palestinian Mujahideen.

Q. Okay. Do me a favor. Read the questions.

A. All of them? 

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Q. No, just start right here. 

A. Okay. "Who among the known personalities in the West 

Bank and Gaza Sector are members of this movement?"

Q. "Whom do you mean?"

A. "Dr. Ibrahim al-Yazouri for instance?"

Q. "He is a member of Hamas in the political activity."

A. "Who else among the known person amounts took part?"

Q. "Among them is engineer Issa al-Ashqar, Dr. Abdel Aziz 

al-Rantisi, Abdel Fattah and Salah Shehatah."

A. "What is the relationship between the West Bank and Gaza 

Sector in regards to Hamas?"

Q. "A man called Jamil Hamami used to call us from the West 

Bank. He also used to convey information from our side."

A. "Is the ongoing coordination?"

Q. Now, this is Demonstrative No. 17. 

A. Correct.

Q. And this Jamil Hamami I imagine is this person here?

A. It is.

Q. So in 1989 it doesn't appear as though Sheikh Yassin is 

saying "Hamami used to speak with us."

A. The next question is, "Is the ongoing coordination," 

which I am assuming means is the coordination ongoing, and he 

says, "yes." So I don't think that indicates that it stopped 

in 1989.

Q. Clearly he said "Jamil Hamami used to call us from the 

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West Bank." Clearly he said that. Right?

A. That is what it says.

Q. And then we know at some point after that Hamami is 

coming to the United States. 

A. That is correct in 1999, I believe.

Q. And then this book was from '91. Right?

A. I believe so.

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have the original of HLF 

Search No. 25?

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Do you recognize this?

A. I do.

Q. This is the Sultan Mahmoud letter?

A. That is correct. 

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach the witness, Your 

Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Does it appear to you -- I will just 

hand this to you. 

A. Okay.

Q. Does it appear as though the letter was folded up in the 

envelope?

A. It has crease marks.

Q. It has creases like that is where it stayed. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. I want to talk to you a little bit about the Sultan 

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Mahmoud letter. 

A. Okay.

Q. Have you ever spoken with Sultan Mahmoud?

A. I have not.

Q. Sultan Mahmoud, let me show you something in here. In 

his letter he actually puts the word Sultan Mahmoud in 

quotation marks. 

A. He does.

Q. And you notice right off, don't you, that the letter is 

in English and not Arabic? 

A. That is correct.

Q. And this was sent to the New Jersey office, which is this 

2115, and Paterson, New Jersey.

A. Correct.

Q. From no return address. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And the letter says modest. He wasn't lying there, was 

he? "This is for relief supplies and weapons to crush the 

hated enemy. Thank you." Is that what it says?

A. That is what it says.

Q. And then "nuclear weapons." And then what was included 

in the letter apparently was $25. Stands to reason that MO 

No. 6 means money order. 

A. That makes sense. I don't know if it was in the form of 

a money order or not, but it makes sense.

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Q. So assuming that the money order also didn't have a 

return address, there is really not much that can be done with 

it other than just throw it away. Right?

A. I don't know if the money order -- If there was a money 

order, and I don't know if there were if it had a return 

address on it, so I wouldn't want to speculate about what 

could or could not have been done with it. 

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take the afternoon 

break. Be back at 4:00.

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 4:00.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: I understand counsel wants to take up a 

matter. 

MR. JACKS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Maybe a couple of matters. 

MR. JACKS: Sorry. Did I cut in front of you? 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I understand that there are 

-- not myself, but others, some travel issues if we could 

break at 5:00, and I think the Government is in agreement.

THE COURT: I think I told the jury, and I mentioned 

yesterday that if we took the long lunch we would go until 

5:30 or 5:30, so I am not agreeing to 5:00. If you had told 

me that yesterday, I wouldn't have taken the long lunch. And 

I specifically asked yesterday for that very reason. I was 

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concerned that we would take the long lunch, and then somebody 

would come up and say, "We need to leave early." So I asked 

yesterday if working until 5:00 or 5:30 would work, and nobody 

said a word. So we will -- I am not saying that time, we will 

find a time, but we are not breaking at 5:00.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor.

MR. JACKS: Judge, you admitted Defense Exhibit No. 

993, which is that DVD of the pantry, the HLF pantry, and we 

have an additional objection to the audio portion of that, and 

we would object to that as hearsay. And I believe, just 

talking to Mr. Jonas, that that was the way it was admitted 

last year. But if the video is admitted, certainly the audio 

is hearsay and we would object to that and ask that it only be 

admitted -- the video portion be admitted.

MR. WESTFALL: And at this time, Your Honor, I was 

going to publish a portion of it without sound.

THE COURT: Today.

MR. WESTFALL: So maybe we can take that matter up 

later on. 

And I am also going to move for the admission of two 

other videos, a little portion of those, and I am going to do 

those without sound also.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you have those exhibit 

numbers? 

MR. WESTFALL: She has them right there. They are 

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Defendants' No. 979 and Defendants' No. 984. And No. 984 is 

the video of Jordan. No. 979 is the video of Albania, Kosovo. 

Both of them have Abdul in them, and both of them I intend to 

publish without sound. 

MR. JACKS: Judge, we still object to lack of 

foundation and hearsay.

MR. WESTFALL: And Your Honor, these are also videos 

she reviewed at the same time, and I have spoken with her 

about it. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) And do you still remember that?

A. I recall seeing them, yes.

THE COURT: And you can state what they relate to? 

THE WITNESS: I can state that Mr. Westfall showed 

them to me last year, so I know that they came from the HLF 

search warrants, but other than that I don't know what was the 

basis underlying them, other than what is on the tape.

THE COURT: Okay.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) You recognize Odeh is in it? 

A. I do.

Q. And also Dalell Mohmed is in one. You recognize her? 

A. I do. 

THE COURT: And these are videotapes? 

MR. WESTFALL: They were videotapes that they 

seized, and I put them on DVDs.

THE COURT: Identifying someone from a photograph, I 

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think that is one thing. If you want to try to sponsor a tape 

because this is X event or Y event, it needs to be from 

somebody that knows it is X event or Y event. Are you saying 

the tape itself establishes what it is? 

THE WITNESS: It has been about a year since I have 

reviewed these. On the HLF pantry opening, the tape itself 

does establish what it is. 

I can't recall on these two. I remember the pictures and 

the scenes, but I don't remember exactly what is in it. I am 

sorry. I haven't reviewed it in like a year.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Do you remember that the very first 

thing you see is a sign that says "Kosovo Relief"? Do you 

remember that?

A. If you say so I will believe you.

Q. And the Jordan one, there is a big sign that says 

"Jordan", you know, "Iftar Food Parcel Project."

MR. Westfall: It does self-identify what it is and 

Odeh is in both of them. 

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: I am not sure that Agent Burns just 

accepting Mr. Westfall's word is sufficient to lay the 

foundation.

THE COURT: I mean, you have seen -- Have you seen 

these? 

MR. JONAS: Agent Burns? 

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THE WITNESS: And I haven't seen them since they 

were played in last trial, so I have minimal recollection what 

is on there.

THE COURT: But you are saying that they have that 

there? 

MR. WESTFALL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. I think that will be 

sufficient then. Those will be admitted. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, will the sound be admitted? 

THE COURT: No. He said he wasn't playing them with 

the sound.

MR. JACKS: I want to make sure if and when they get 

back to the jury there is no sound.

THE COURT: We will resolve -- We are deferring a 

ruling on the sound for now, and just remind me at some point 

to take that up.

Go ahead and bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall?

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

At this time, with permission of the Court, I would like 

to publish three short video clips. 

THE COURT: All right.

MR. WESTFALL: For the record, I am publishing these 

without sound at this time, Your Honor. 

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THE COURT: All right.

MR. Westfall: No. 993. 

(Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit No. 993 was played, 

while questions were propounded.) 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Agent Burns, do you see that this here 

is the same as that picture of the HLF pantry where Abdul's 

office was?

A. Yes.

Q. Right over on the far left hand side of the screen, do 

you recognize that as Abdul Odeh?

A. I do.

Q. And on the far right hand do you recognize that as 

Mohammad El-Mezain?

A. I do.

MR. WESTFALL: At this time, Your Honor, I would 

like to publish a portion of Defendants' 979.

THE COURT: Yes, sir, you may do so. 

(Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit No. 979 was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. Westfall) Agent Burns, this is kind of grainy, a 

little bit, but you see over here in the right hand part of 

the screen?

A. I do.

Q. Does that look like Dalell Mohmed?

A. It is hard to tell. Maybe if we play a little bit more I 

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will get a better picture. Right now I can't really tell who 

that is. 

Q. Dalell Mohmed was like another relief worker that worked 

with the Holy Land Foundation. Right?

A. She was an employee at the HLF, yes.

Q. And she kind of did the relief missions. Also she took a 

relief mission to Turkey. You knew that.

A. She did travel on behalf of the HLF to foreign countries.

Q. Do you recognize her name?

A. I do.

Q. You recognize the work she did. 

And then this is Abdul Odeh. Right.

A. That is correct.

Q. I didn't have you do this because I was still jacking 

with my equipment, but this says Kosovo relief Holy Land 

Foundation USA.

A. That is what it says.

Q. Here would be flour, or white bags that could be flour?

A. It could be.

MR. WESTFALL: Can you give me the elmo?

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) And this is Defendants' 491, again, 

which is already in evidence. And this is -- That is the same 

little guy that was working the machine. Do you recognize 

him?

A. It looks like him.

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Q. But this is the bread. Did it appear they were making 

bread?

A. It did.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, may I approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) I am showing you Defendants' 490. Can 

you please tell me at least two of the people in that 

photograph do you recognize as being Dalell and Abdul Odeh?

A. I see Dalell in this photo but I don't see Mr. Odeh. 

Q. Oh, that is because he is not there. Do you recognize 

Dalell?

A. I do.

Q. And do you also see the Holy Land Foundation logo?

A. I do.

Q. Okay.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, we move for the admission 

of Defendants' 490.

MR. JONAS: Same objection.

THE COURT: Okay. Same objection. And that is 

admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) And this here is Dalell?

A. That is correct.

MR. WESTFALL: At this time, with your permission, 

Your Honor, I will publish a short portion of Defendants' 984.

THE COURT: All right. Yes, sir. You may do so.

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(Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit No. 984 was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Now, you remember we discussed earlier 

the trips that Abdul Odeh made to Jordan to work in -- to take 

a mission over there. 

A. Yes.

Q. And that is Abdul there. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Do you see that lady just went over to the table and did 

something there before she picked up her bag?

A. I didn't see exactly what she did.

Q. You see they are doing something at the table first and 

then going to pick up their bag of food?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Can you see that?

A. I do.

Q. It appears as though she is putting a thumbprint on a 

piece of paper?

A. It does.

Q. Now, in the 500 boxes of materials from the Holy Land 

Foundation, you have seen a lot of these forms that have these 

fingerprints on them like this. Right?

A. I don't know that I would characterize it as a lot, but I 

have seen forms where people have put their thumbprints.

Q. Now, it appears we changed location. Would you agree?

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A. It appears there is a different setting there, yes.

Q. Right. Are they handing their little book to them?

A. Yes.

Q. Some of these forms have like signatures and some have 

the thumbprints?

A. I have seen forms with both.

MR. WESTFALL: Could I have this again?

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Let me show you this one more time. 

It is kind of grainy. This right here, if we go out, does 

that appear to be a U.N. symbol with the globe in the middle 

and kind of light blue?

A. I honestly can't tell on this screen. Maybe it is better 

on your picture, but here I see just kind of a blue tag with 

something in the middle. I can't tell on this one. Do you 

have the original of the photo? You can't really tell 

anything from -- 

Q. Does that appear to be the same color shade as the U.N. 

uses and the little white thing in the middle?

A. It could be.

Q. You know the Holy Land Foundation did ventures with the 

U.N.

A. I have seen that they administered aid to some of the 

same projects the U.N. was working on, but I have no personal 

knowledge that this was one of them.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, thank you.

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MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I will pass the witness.

THE COURT: Ms. Cadeddu? 

MS. CADEDDU: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Cadeddu: 

Q. Good afternoon, Agent Burns. 

A. Hi.

Q. I would like to talk to you first about a couple of the 

exhibits that you looked at on direct examination. Okay?

A. Okay.

MS. CADEDDU: I am going to need Government's 

exhibits -- This is the Government exhibit Demonstrative 

No. 15, page 16, please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) While we are waiting, Agent Burns, do 

you have your list of exhibits that have been admitted?

A. I do not.

Q. No? You might need that. We will try to muddle through. 

MS. CADEDDU: Page 16, please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. Agent Burns, this is a chart 

that you made. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you made it, I think like some of the others, based 

on other documents that are -- that the Government has 

introduced. Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

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Q. And I think at the bottom -- 

MS. CADEDDU: If you could enlarge the bottom right 

hand corner, please. You can't? Okay. I will just read it 

to you. 

Q. (BY MR. CADEDDU) The bottom right hand corner says -- 

See Elbarasse Search No. 5, Elbarasse Search No. 7, Elbarasse 

Search No. 10, Elbarasse Search No. 31, Secretary of State 

Virginia-1, and Elbarasse Search No. 20, Ashqar Search No. 1? 

Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. So I want to take a look at some of those documents. 

MS. CADEDDU: Could we take a look at Elbarasse 

Search No. 5, please? And if we could go to the English, I 

think -- I don't have the page, but the first page of the 

English translation, please. And if you could enlarge that, 

please, the top. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. Agent Burns, this document is an 

IAP internal memorandum. Right?

A. No.

Q. Islamic Action for Palestine internal memorandum?

A. It is an international Muslim Brotherhood memo. 

Q. Okay. It says Islamic Action for Palestine internal 

memo, October 1992. 

A. Correct.

Q. And that the date on that, as I said, is October '92. 

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Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that document does not contain Mufid Abdulqader's 

name. Right?

A. Correct.

MS. CADEDDU: Elbarasse Search No. 7, please. And 

the first page of the English translation, if you could. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) This document is entitled -- Across the 

top of this page it says, "Re: A suggestion to amend the 

bylaws of the Central Committee." Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And the date on that is April 2nd, 1991.

A. Correct.

Q. Now, Mufid Abdulqader's name doesn't appear in that 

document either. Right?

A. Correct.

MS. CADEDDU: Elbarasse Search No. 10, please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. Now, this document, the title on 

it is "Central Committee organization chart for the year 

1991." Right?

A. Right.

MS. CADEDDU: And if you will please enlarge the far 

left portion of that. That is still kind of hard to see. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Can you see that, Agent Burns, on your 

screen?

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. The third one from the bottom there lists Sakhra 

Group. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. But on that page at least, which is page 1, there are no 

names of individuals. 

A. Correct.

MS. CADEDDU: If you could turn to page 4 of that 

translation, please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) And again this is -- Can you read it on 

your screen, Agent Burns?

A. I can.

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I am going to move over to 

this edge, because I am trying to read them at the same time. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) And this document contains a lot of 

individuals' names, and I think you said that some of them are 

repeated. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And Mufid Abdulqader's name does not appear on this 

document. 

A. Correct.

Q. Now, actually I believe that there are a couple of band 

member names that do appear on this document. Isn't that 

right?

A. Yes.

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Q. For example, Fawaz Mushtaha?

A. That is correct.

Q. And he is the guy with the backyard?

A. Yes.

Q. And Munzer Taleb, his name also appears on this document. 

Is that right? 

A. That is correct.

Q. We are going to talk more about them in a minute. 

MS. CADEDDU: I would like to turn to Elbarasse 

Search No. 31, please, and the first page of the English 

translation. If you could enlarge it, please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. Now, this document is entitled, 

and I want to read it correctly for you, "An introduction to 

the bylaw of the Palestine Committee in America and Canada."

A. I see that.

Q. And you are familiar with this document. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And this document does not contain Mufid Abdulqader's 

name either. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, could we -- There was -- There is actually an 

exhibit listed on the page that we started with, the diagram 

that you created, and I read the bottom right hand portion 

that talks about which exhibits are included. There was one 

on there that is Elbarasse Search No. 20. And we are not 

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going to talk about that today, because my understanding is 

from my review that that is not in evidence. 

So let's move on to Ashqar Search No. 1, please. And 

this is -- And I should have written down the page number for 

this. There is page number that has "Palestine Section, 

important phone numbers." If you could page to that.

A. It is page 3, maybe page 4.

Q. Okay. And Mufid Abdulqader's name is not listed on this 

document either. Is that right?

A. Correct.

MS. CADEDDU: And so let's go back here to -- If we 

could have Demonstrative No. 15 page 16 up again, please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. Agent Burns, I just wanted to go 

through that with you, because I want to understand the basis 

for including -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Actually if you could enlarge the 

bottom left hand quadrant for me, I would appreciate it. That 

is right. You can't enlarge it. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Do you see Mufid Abdulqader's picture 

in the bottom?

A. I do.

Q. And his picture appears under the name Sakhra Band. 

Right?

A. It does.

Q. So you have put him there because you know that he is a 

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member of the Sakhra Band. 

A. Based on all the videotapes we have shown here, yes.

Q. Right. But his name doesn't appear in any of the 

documents that are listed here as the source documents. 

A. Not in the documents, no.

Q. Okay. And there are actually a whole large number of 

band members who have been involved with the band over the 

course of its history. Isn't that right?

A. During this time period I think maybe there were five or 

six band members.

Q. Okay. Well, I would like to actually talk to you about 

the band members who have at one time or another been a part 

of the band, and you can identify for me those whose names you 

can recollect. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. So we have Fawaz Mushtaha, of course. We know he was 

involved. 

A. Correct.

Q. And we have seen him in some of the videos. Is that 

right?

A. Yes, we have. 

Q. I am sorry. I am so cold, my lips are numb and I can't 

talk. 

And Munzer Taleb is another band member whose name you 

recognize? 

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A. That is correct.

Q. And we have seen him in some of the videos also?

A. We have.

Q. And Sammy Hamad. Is that name familiar to you?

A. I have heard it, but I would not know his face to put it 

with his name.

Q. Sure. And I am not going to ask you to identify them, 

but do you understand him to be a member of the band also?

A. I believe that is correct.

Q. How about Kifah Mustapha?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. As a matter of fact, Kifah Mustapha also worked at one 

time for the Holy Land Foundation. Is that right?

A. He did. And let me clarify my answer, because I know we 

are talking about the band in general, but Al Sakhra Band was 

the band's name in the earlier years.

Q. Yes. We are going to get to that, I promise. 

A. Well, just to be clear, I believe Kifah Mustapha was not 

a part of that band, but was a part of the band later when it 

became Al-Nujoom.

Q. So you believe Kifah Mustapha wasn't involved in the 

al-Sahkra Band itself?

A. He may have been, but I know him to have been part of 

Al-Nujoom I have not seen any tapes on him on it as part of Al 

Sakhra.

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Q. Okay. No problem. How about Sabri Sabri?

A. I have seen the name in connection with the IAP, but I am 

not sure if he was a band member or not.

Q. Okay. How about Mahmoud Abu Hashem?

A. I don't know that individual.

Q. Okay. Ibrahim Albers?

A. I am sorry. Can you repeat that.

Q. Sure. Ibrahim Albers. 

A. I don't know the individual.

Q. Nadal el-Las?

A. I don't know him.

Q. Salah el-Muni?

A. I have seen that name before, but I can't recall if it 

was in the context of the band or not, so I am not sure about 

that one.

Q. Okay. How about Amon Dahelrah?

A. I don't know him.

Q. Abdullah Gabiyen?

A. I don't know him.

Q. Okay. Perhaps why don't I -- 

MS. CADEDDU: May I approach and I will go through 

these? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Agent Burns, would you take a look at 

the list of names over here in the left hand column and see if 

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you recognize any of those as having been associated with 

al-Sahkra?

A. Okay. And again, not to say that they are not. I am 

just telling you that I don't recognize these names. 

Well, I know that -- You have Mohamed Abu Roth up here. 

That is Mohamed Musphaka that we identified in one of the 

videotapes. But again, he appeared in the later years, so I 

think technically the band had changed its name to Al-Nujoom 

at this time. I have not seen him perform with Al Sakhra in 

the early years. 

Let me see the other names. I don't recognize these 

other names.

Q. Okay. And would you take a look at this column, the 

column on the right. That actually comes from the Government 

exhibit, and I can tell you which one it is. It is the -- 

A. Okay.

Q. HLF Search No. 147. That is actually a document that you 

rely on in the summary for Mufid Abdulqader that talks about 

an IAP convention. 

A. Okay.

Q. Do you recognize any of those names?

A. I don't know who any of these individuals except for 

Abdulqader, depending on the exhibit. I would need to look at 

the context, but I presume since we are in this context it is 

Mufid Abdulqader. And I would like to look at the document, 

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because there may be a couple of others that I recognize. But 

in this form, I don't recognize the other individuals.

Q. Okay. Actually let's take a quick look at that form. 

Let's take a quick at Government's Exhibit HLF Search No. 147, 

please. That is the one I was referring you to. 

MS. CADEDDU: And if you could enlarge the section 

-- I believe the names start at line 7 through maybe 2. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Can you see that Agent Burns?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And this is the exhibit I was talking about 

before. Do you recognize any of those names as being involved 

with the Al Sakhra Band?

A. Again, we have No. 9 which would be Mufid Abdulqader, and 

then two names below that is Monzer who is Munzer Taleb that 

we discussed. No. 5, I don't know how they have this 

numbering system done, but No. 5 is Kifah, which would be the 

HLF representative and band member Kifah Mustapha. And if we 

can scroll down the page a little bit, or I guess this doesn't 

scroll.

Q. I think those are actually all the names. So would you 

say that Kifah Mustapha would be another name? Or that is the 

one you said was associated with Al-Nujoom. Is that right?

A. I know him to be have associated with Al-Nujoom. He may 

have had affiliation a with Al Sakhra but I haven't seen it.

Q. So it would be fair to say that to list -- That there are 

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other names that ought to be listed under the Al Sakhra Band. 

It is not a band of one. Would you agree with that?

A. I can't base that on this document just because this is 

for a document about an IAP convention. I know that --

Q. Agent Burns, I am sorry. That was a very bad question. 

Let me start over again because I think I am overcomplicating. 

Based on the documents that we have just gone through, I 

was comparing those with the Demonstrative No. 15, page 16, 

and you had Mufid Abdulqader's name listed under the Al Sakhra 

Band. There were a number of band members under the Al Sakhra 

Band umbrella. 

A. As I have stated, I base my answer on the videotapes that 

I have seen of Al Sakhra Band, and there were generally five 

to six people in Al Sakhra Band.

Q. Okay. That is what I was looking for. So in other 

words, Mufid Abdulqader's name is on that chart because he was 

one of at least five or six other band members during that 

time. Is that right?

A. His name is on the chart because he was a band member and 

he is one of the Defendants in this case.

Q. I understand. But there are other members of the band.

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Now, let's -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Thank you. Actually let's keep this 

one up, if you don't mind. Let's take a look at this exhibit 

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again. This is HLF Search No. 147. And I would like to 

actually -- Do you have the Mufid summary chart over here? 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) All right. Can you see this, Agent 

Burns?

A. I can.

Q. I hope I can see you after I put it up. Okay. So just 

to reorient all of us, this is an exhibit that you put in as a 

demonstrative exhibit as examples of Mufid Abdulqader's 

activities as a band member and then as a Holy Land Foundation 

volunteer. And you have done this in a chronological order. 

Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And then over here you have the exhibits that you are 

referring to. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And in 1988, which is the first entry that you have, 

these exhibits that you are referring to over here are videos. 

Is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And then we go down and we have -- I am not sure that 

this is admitted yet, but we have the Philadelphia meeting 

which we will get to, and then the entries all the way to -- I 

believe it is all to the end of 1996, these are all 

videotapes. Is that correct? Can you see it?

A. Yes. That is correct.

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Q. I know it is kind of far away. And then below 1996 

starting about here, this is documentary evidence. Is that 

right?

A. Documentary, and there are telephone calls.

Q. Okay. Documents and telephone calls starting with 1997. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And so 1995-1996 is approximately when Mufid Abdulqader 

moved to Dallas from Oklahoma City. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. So let's take a look -- I think HLF Search No. 147 

is -- We are going to have to go all the way down to the 

bottom here. It is referred to IAP convention, $2,721 

attributed to Mufid Abdulqader. Do you see that?

A. I do.

MS. CADEDDU: Let's take a look at HLF exhibit 147, 

please. Could you actually pull out on the whole exhibit for 

me for a second, please? Okay. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Now, this document doesn't have a title 

at all, does it, Agent Burns?

A. It does not.

Q. Okay. And no signature or anything like that on it?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it appears to be a chart of expenses associated with 

a band. Is that right?

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A. Actually I don't know if it is expenses or not. That is 

why we put the word "attributed" on there. I don't know if 

these are expenses or amounts raised. It just has the column 

amount, so I wouldn't want to guess as to what those columns 

in the amount column represent.

Q. Sure. So you are not actually really sure what the chart 

represents, but Mufid Abdulqader's name appears there and it 

appears there are other band members listed there, too. 

Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And down at the bottom here it says -- It makes 

reference to an IAP convention '97.

A. It does.

Q. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And then it also talks about Isra band wedding paid 

through Al-Nujoom and taken back. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And total expenses through the year--office, phone, 

compensation--and it lists that number as $29,108. Do you see 

that?

A. I do.

Q. Now, there is also a notation here "tickets were 

purchased on my credit card." Do you see that?

A. I do.

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Q. Up above that there is a line that says "total expenses 

that were put on Kifah credit card, namely tickets," and has 

an amount of $4,082. 

A. I see that.

Q. Then down at the bottom underneath where it says "tickets 

were purchased on my credit card," there is an amount it looks 

like $4,276, and then it shows separate amounts added 

together, and one of those is $4,082 Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. So could it be that this is something that was produced 

by Kifah Mustapha, since it talked about "my credit card" and 

has that same number?

A. It could be. I believe this document, if we scroll down, 

came from the HLF Chicago office.

Q. So Kifah Mustapha actually worked at the HLF Chicago 

office. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Actually, as you said, Kifah Mustapha was a band member. 

Are you aware of the fact that he managed the Al-Nujoom Band 

in the 1997 time period?

A. I know that he was a part of the Al-Nujoom. I don't know 

if he was a manager or not.

Q. Okay. And you also know that the Al-Nujoom Band, and 

before that the Al Sakhra Band, were managed for a time by 

Fawaz Mushtaha. Right.

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A. I know that Fawaz Mushtaha managed Al Sakhra at some 

point. I don't know if he managed Al-Nujoom or not.

Q. Okay. And then is it your understanding that Munzer 

Taleb took over management of the band at some point in the 

later years?

A. I don't know that.

Q. But you know Mufid Abdulqader began managing the band in 

2000. 

A. I don't recall that. Maybe I knew that at one point, but 

I don't remember it now.

Q. All right. Fair enough. Okay. 

MS. CADEDDU: Let's take a look now if we can at HLF 

Search No. 15, please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) And Agent Burns, this is actually an 

invoice by Al-Nujoom Band. I think it is one of the ones on 

your list here, the summary list for Mufid Abdulqader. 

A. It is.

Q. Okay. And this is an invoice that dates from September 

1st, 1998. Does that look right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that invoice lists a number of band members who 

include Kifah, Monzer, Mufid, and Sabri. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And do you see the bill to address up at the top? Not 

the bill to address; the address above the bill to address, 

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the address that is attributed to Al-Nujoom there? 

A. I do.

Q. And do you recognize that address to be Munzer Taleb's 

address at the time?

A. I don't know if it is or not. It may be.

Q. Now, the band -- You are aware that the band was hired to 

perform at a number of different cultural festivals. Right?

A. I know that they did perform at different events.

Q. Okay. So an IAP festival, a MAYA festival?

A. Yes. They performed at a lot of those.

Q. Okay. And they also performed at weddings and 

graduations. 

A. I know that they did perform at weddings. I don't know 

about graduations.

Q. And that they put out music CDs and sold those. 

A. I have heard that, but I have not seen any myself.

Q. I can get you some if you like. 

Al Sakhra, the name of the band, what do you understand 

that to mean? 

A. I have not been told by a translator what it means. I 

have heard that it means the rock, but I don't know that for 

sure.

Q. Okay. And you don't know what that would be a reference 

to? What it would mean beyond the words?

A. What Al Sakhra means beyond -- 

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Q. What the significance of the words is?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Now, the band changed its name, I think you said 

at some point, and that would have been around 1994. Right?

A. I think that is correct.

Q. And actually I know you don't have the exhibits. We can 

take a look, and we will in a little bit, at one of the 

transcripts, and you can see in the transcripts of the videos 

where the band name changes from Al Sakhra to Al-Nujoom. 

Right?

A. You can see the difference in the videos they announce 

the band's name.

Q. So that would be how you would conclude that the band 

changed its name?

A. That is correct.

Q. And do you know what Al-Nujoom means?

A. I don't.

Q. Now, yesterday you talked a little bit about Baker 

Wiretap No. 6. That is -- Just to reorient you, that is a 

conversation between Mufid and Akram Mishal from July of 1998. 

Do you remember talking about that call?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And Akram Mishal is actually an HLF employee at 

that time. Right?

A. He was.

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MS. CADEDDU: And could we take a look at Baker 

Wiretap No. 6, page 2, please? 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) And I think you made a reference -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I am sorry. This is just 

so hard it is over here. I can't read it. 

THE WITNESS: I don't believe the transcript on the 

screen is the conversation you are referring to.

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) I think you are correct. 

MS. CADEDDU: Okay. Can you go to the next page, 

please? 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) And I may have to do this with my paper 

copy because it seems to be a little tough. And you know why? 

Because I have the wrong number. It is actually Baker Wiretap 

No. 7. Let's do it on here. I think this will be easier.

And I think you made reference to this transcript, and so 

I would like to read a little bit of this with you. I think 

the part you referenced yesterday, Akram -- 

MS. CADEDDU: I am sorry, Your Honor. I am mixed 

up. I think I put No. 7 where No. 6 should be, and I think I 

put No. 6 where No. 7 should be. I am going to come back to 

that later. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) You testified yesterday about 

interviewing Mufid Abdulqader in 2002. Do you remember that?

A. I do.

Q. And you asked him how much money that he had raised in 

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that interview. Do you remember that?

A. Yes. I asked him how much he raised on, you know, 

average per event.

Q. Sure. And he told you that it was difficult to estimate 

an average amount that he raised, because some of the funds 

were in cash and some were in pledges. Is that right?

A. Initially he told me that he did not know because he 

didn't handle the money. When questioned further, he said 

that he -- that some of the money was in cash and some was in 

pledges and things like that. 

Q. And he told you during the interview that he raised an 

average of $10,000 to $20,000 in cash at fundraising events. 

Right?

A. He ultimately said that, yes. But he couldn't tell me 

what his biggest day was or anything like that.

Q. Right. And you actually, after the interview -- One of 

the three of you who are in attendance at this interview wrote 

up a report of the interview. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And that report reflects what happened during the 

interview. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And the description of how things went. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And I am going -- 

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MS. CADEDDU: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Agent Burns, I would like to ask -- I 

am going to ask you to follow along with me as I read this. 

In your report you state --

MR. JONAS: I am going to object. This report is 

not in evidence. It is hearsay. It is not proper to read 

from it. She can ask questions about what went on during the 

interview -- 

THE COURT: If it is not in evidence, I agree. Is 

it in evidence? 

MS. CADEDDU: No, Your Honor, but the report 

reflects something that is certainly in a different tenor than 

the tenor that the witness is taking now, so I believe it is 

impeachment. 

THE COURT: I will have to take a look at it. Let 

me take a look at it. Come on around. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

THE COURT: Okay. What is this?

MS. CADEDDU: Okay. This is the FBI 302, and in it 

they don't -- she doesn't talk about how he lied or he had to 

be further questioned. It is just sort of a general very 

benign discussion of how the money was raised. It is 

consistent but without the tone that it was a lie, and so I 

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just want to -- 

THE COURT: Consistent with what? 

MS. CADEDDU: It is inconsistent with her testimony 

that he lied and that he had to be pushed and all of that. I 

believe the way it is written in here shows that it was just a 

conversation rather than, you know -- Agent Burns was making 

it out that he was mendacious and he had to be pushed and he 

lied, and so I want to say what it is that he said during the 

interview as it was written contemporaneously. 

THE COURT: And you want to read just this section 

here. 

MS. CADEDDU: Just this part here that she has 

testified to. I mean, she has testified to the substance of 

it, but not the way it came out. 

MR. JONAS: I think this is improper. She can 

question her, "Well, isn't it a fact that you had asked him, 

he answered truthfully after several" -- I mean, I think the 

question can be asked without having to read from the 302. 

This is hearsay. This is just another way of trying to get in 

a statement of the Defendant without him getting on the stand.

MR. JACKS: Judge, another issue is that there were 

three people that attended the interview, three agents. If 

you will look on the front -- 

MS. CADEDDU: There are, but she signed it, and she 

testified at the first trial that she has to she reviewed it 

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and said that it was correct. I mean, it is -- It doesn't say 

who wrote it, and I can impeach her on this.

MR. JACKS: That is not the way to impeach a 

witness.

THE COURT: You can impeach, but normally you don't 

just -- Without laying a predicate, you just don't start 

reading. You have to call the party's attention to it. And 

your position is that it is inconsistent with her testimony, 

this is inconsistent with her testimony here? 

MS. CADEDDU: Yes, I am making that contention, 

because it doesn't say that he initially lied and that he had 

to be pressed. It just says that he was questioned and this 

is what he said, and I want to say exactly how was that.

THE COURT: Well -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Every impeachment I have ever done, I 

have said, "Okay. You said X. Isn't that correct?" I mean, 

you know, for impeachment you read something that someone has 

approved of before that is inconsistent with what they are 

testifying to.

THE COURT: Generally you call their attention to 

what it is that is supposed to be inconsistent, and if they 

acknowledge -- she denies it is inconsistent, then you can get 

into that. 

MS. CADEDDU: Perhaps I am being inartful because I 

am tired and frozen.

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THE COURT: Just starting to read it, I think that 

is improper just to begin to read it. I think you have to 

call the witness' attention to whatever it is you think is 

inconsistent, and then ask her, "In these reports it doesn't 

state that he lied," or whatever it is you think is 

inconsistent. But let her read it and then if she disagrees 

with you, then I think you can get into that.

MS. CADEDDU: She has to read the impeachment before 

I can cross --

THE COURT: You call her attention to it first, her 

report, and in her report that she didn't state that he lied 

and she had to prod him, or after further questioning. Then 

once you call her attention to the report -- You don't have to 

show it to her, but you have to call attention to what it is 

you are asking where she wrote it. And then -- 

MS. CADEDDU: I think I will just go about this a 

different way because I am tired. 

THE COURT: We all are. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. We are going to do this a 

different way, Agent Burns. 

A. Okay.

Q. And I just want to go back for a second to your testimony 

that you gave just a few minutes ago and clarify. 

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You interviewed Mufid Abdulqader in 2002. Right? 

A. That is correct.

Q. And it was a pretty lengthy interview. 

A. It was.

Q. In his attorney's office; not my office, a different 

attorney. 

A. Correct.

Q. And during that interview you asked him about a number of 

subjects. 

A. That is correct.

Q. One of those subjects was work that he had done with the 

band. 

A. After looking at the 302, I don't believe that was a 

topic of the interview. I think afterwards he joked about 

some CDs and some issues like that about the band. But after 

looking at the 302 I don't believe that we questioned him as a 

result of the interview or as part of the interview about the 

band.

Q. Okay. But you did question him about his volunteer work 

with the Holy Land Foundation. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And you asked him how much money he raised. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And he told you it was difficult to estimate an amount 

that he raised. Right?

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A. He stated originally, when we first asked him the 

question, that he didn't really know because he didn't handle 

the money.

Q. Okay. And then eventually he told you, when you asked 

him again, that he didn't know -- Let's see. It was difficult 

to estimate the amount that was raised because not all of it 

came in at that time. Right?

A. Right. We talked about the pledges; some of it came in 

pledges and some of it came in cash.

Q. All right. So some of it came in in cash that was 

received on the spot. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And then some of it came in pledges, and people would 

send their money in I guess later on. 

A. Correct.

Q. And sometimes people would call the Holy Land Foundation 

after a fundraiser and would donate over the phone with a 

credit card. 

A. Correct. Like we saw reference to in a conversation the 

other day.

Q. Okay. 

MS. CADEDDU: In fact, if we can take a look at 

that, Abdulqader Wiretap No. 1, please, at page 2. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. Now, this is actually a 

conversation between Mr. Abdulqader and Ibrahim Khalil. 

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A. That is right.

Q. And we know that from the front page. And you recognize 

this conversation. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And Ibrahim tells Mufid up here at the top, "We hear good 

news about you." Right?

A. That is right.

Q. And then what Ibrahim tells Mufid is that a woman has 

called the Holy Land offices and donated money. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And that happened as a result of one of Mufid's 

fundraising speeches that he gave. 

A. Correct.

Q. And so she called after the fact and donated with a 

credit card. 

A. That is correct. I can't recall if this says she donated 

with a credit card, but she did call after the conference to 

the Holy Land Foundation office and made her donation. It may 

say credit card, but I don't remember that. 

Q. I think it does on the next page, but we will get to that 

in a second. 

So Ibrahim tells Mufid that she said she just heard a 

sermon and she was very impressed, and she would like to 

donate. Right?

A. That is correct.

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Q. And then Mufid asks how, "Much did she donate?" Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Because that is not a donation that came in at the time 

of the original sermon. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And Ibrahim is joking around with him and says, "Well, 

what do you think?" And kind of makes him guess. Right?

A. Right.

MS. CADEDDU: Can we go to the next page, please? 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) And then you can see there, I think it 

is the fourth line down, that Ibrahim finally tells Mufid that 

she donated $5,000. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And I think she says -- I thought she said with a credit 

card, but she may not have. That could have been a pledge 

that she mailed in. Right?

A. I don't recall offhand how she ultimately was supposed to 

send the money.

Q. Okay. 

MS. CADEDDU: And if we can turn to page 4 of this 

same exhibit, please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. And this is a continuation of 

the same conversation. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And Mufid is telling Ibrahim that he received $17,000 in 

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cash at the fundraising. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And then somebody donated -- someone donated $5,000, 

which he said he would mail. Do you see that on I think it is 

the fifth line?

A. I do.

Q. And then there were four people who were going to donate 

$1,000, and they said they would mail their money in after the 

fact. Right?

A. Correct.

MS. CADEDDU: Could we take a look at page 5, 

please? 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Now, this conversation is actually 

talking about -- it is the same fundraising trip, but it is a 

different locale. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. So this was a Boston fundraiser?

A. The topic on this page, yes.

Q. Yes. And so Mufid flew up to the northeast, and then 

went to a couple of different cities and raised money for Holy 

Land over I think a weekend or something like that. Is that 

your understanding?

A. Yes.

Q. And this one was in Boston. Right?

A. That is correct.

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Q. And there is a conversation -- Mufid makes a reference, 

"Did the guys tell you that they take 15 percent?" Do you see 

that?

A. I do.

Q. And what he is talking about there is that when Mufid 

raised the money in Boston, the place where he did that kept 

some sort of a commission of 15 percent. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact, they didn't give Mufid the cash to bring 

back at all for Holy Land. Isn't that right?

A. They gave him a check, according to this.

Q. Right. They gave him a check less the 15 percent. 

Right?

A. Based on this, yes.

Q. Okay. I would like to turn -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Thank you very much. I am done with 

that. I need another summary here. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Can you see this, Agent Burns?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. This right here is what you have put in as 

the Philadelphia meeting summary. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And perhaps I should put it up. It is hard to 

see. 

THE COURT: That is fine. 

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Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. And on this chart, this is how 

you summarized the records that you have that relate to the 

Philadelphia conference. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you have over here Mufid Abdulqader's name listed -- 

I think you say he is the third one down on the list?

A. Correct.

Q. And here you have him listed with Al Sakhra Band, and you 

also have Holy Land Foundation, HLF, noted right here.

A. That is correct.

Q. Do you see that? And I guess that would be because the 

Al Sakhra Band had performed at Holy Land fundraisers. 

A. The reason the HLF is on there is because he ultimately 

became, you know, a fundraiser for the HLF.

Q. Okay. So it is not that he was actually a fundraiser for 

Holy Land at the time the Philadelphia meeting took place. 

This is on there because of his later association. 

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And then we have got the Al Sakhra Band here. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And then we don't have any AMEX flight records that 

relate to him. 

A. Not from the Holy Land AMEX records that we introduced.

Q. Okay. And then we have Marriott Hotel records, and we 

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will talk about those in just a second. 

A. Correct.

Q. And then his name is not identified as one of the 

speakers at the Philadelphia conference. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. There are no surveillance photos of him. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And then his name is also not listed in the Ashqar 

planning meeting. 

A. That is right.

MS. CADEDDU: Okay. I would like to take a quick 

look, if we could, at Ashqar Wiretap No. 1, page 4, please, 

which is the planning call. And could we enlarge actually the 

top half of that document, please? 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. Now, at this point in the 

conversation Omar and Shukri are talking about how to organize 

the meeting and the numbers of people who are going to be 

included. Right?

A. Right.

Q. And so here you see that Shukri says, "I mean, if the 

number exceeds a certain limit, I think there will be a 

counterbalance. I mean, if there will be no -- if there is 30 

people, each one wants to speak for five minutes, it will not 

work. I am afraid it will turn into a conference." Do you 

see that?

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A. Yes.

Q. And is Shukri says, "A forum or an conference. What we 

want is a session, I mean, it is a session, a session or two, 

especially that they will be coming from the festival." Do 

you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Thank you. 

MS. CADEDDU: Now I would like to take a look at the 

Marriott records, please, and I would like to start with page 

4 of those. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. Now, if you -- Can you see that, 

Agent Burns?

A. I can.

Q. This one looks pretty clear are. This looks as if the 

form has been preprinted. You can see there it says Hasan 

Sabri. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And it has an address 1000 West Spring Valley 237, 

richardson, Texas, 75080. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And then next to the preprinted Hasan Sabri, it is 

handwritten in Maghawri. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

MS. CADEDDU: Could we take a look, then, at page 5, 

please? 

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Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) And this one again -- It looks similar 

to the last page that we looked at. Right? With Hasan 

Sabri's name preprinted on the form. Right?

A. It is printed on the form. I don't know at what point 

the hotel printed these up.

Q. Well, it is printed. It is not handwritten. 

A. Correct.

Q. And it has got the same address--1000 West Spring Valley 

237, Richardson, Texas. Is that right?

A. Yes.

MS. CADEDDU: If we can take a look at page 8, 

please. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) And page 8 it looks like is actually 

two forms, and there is -- Again, they both have Hasan Sabri's 

name printed and the same 1000 West Spring Valley, Richardson, 

Texas address on each of these two slips. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. 

MS. CADEDDU: Could we take a look now, please, 

at -- That was page 8. Can I look at page 9, please? 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Same deal here. Right? Hasan Sabri, 

1000 West Spring Valley, and then there is a handwritten name 

in there Haitham Maghawri. 

A. Correct.

MS. CADEDDU: Could we look now at page 6, please? 

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Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. This form, and I think we looked 

at this, I can't remember if it was yesterday or a couple of 

days ago, this one looks different from the ones that we have 

been looking at. Right? It has got a handwritten 

name -- Well, let me do this. The name is handwritten in. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And it says M. Abdulqader. Do you see that?

A. It does.

Q. And the room number is handwritten in. Right?

A. Yes. I think some of the other ones had the room number 

written in, but the names were printed.

Q. Okay. And there is an address that is actually listed on 

here and it is something like 929 St. Paul. Right?

A. I see that.

Q. And do you understand that to be Munzer Taleb's address 

in Dallas?

A. I don't know.

Q. Okay. Well, you know that Mufid Abdulqader didn't live 

in Dallas at the time. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. He lived in Oklahoma. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And Munzer Taleb is one of the band members we talked 

about before. Is that correct?

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A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. 

MS. CADEDDU: Back to the summary chart for a 

second. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) All right. Now, we talked a little bit 

about some of the entries down here. I want to kind of turn 

our attention to the videos, doing this kind of in reverse to 

the videos that also formed the basis for this chart. 

A. Okay.

Q. Okay? The first video that is listed there at the top of 

the chart is Mushtaha Search No. 7. 

A. Okay.

Q. Is that right?

A. It is.

Q. Okay. And that I believe you identified for us already, 

and it says there on the chart that this video dates from 

1988. Is that correct?

A. Let me check my cheat sheet to confirm that that is 

correct. Yes, that is the date we were able to determine was 

1988.

Q. And it is also -- This is in date order, and so the date 

is also indicated there on the left. 

A. Correct.

MS. CADEDDU: And could we take a look, 

please -- Could you play for me Mushtaha Search No. 7-B? And 

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I am going to tell you when to stop the video. 

Your Honor, I am afraid the Government doesn't have the 

Government's video exhibits here, and so that is -- 

THE COURT: That is where you are.

MS. CADEDDU: That is where I am. I apologize for 

that. I have them, but not here.

THE COURT: Let's break for the day. 

Also for your planning purposes, we will see you back 

Monday morning at 9:00. Please recall the instructions. 

Next week we will work three days--Monday, Wednesday, 

Friday. I have some things to take care of Thursday, and we 

will take off Friday. 

The following Monday, the 13th, is a federal holiday, so 

we will have a long weekend in there. I will remind you again 

next week, but for planning purposes we will be here Monday 

Tuesday and Wednesday of next week. 

I am sorry. That is how tired I am. Monday, Tuesday, 

Wednesday, those three days we will be here next week. You 

will be off Thursday, Friday, and the following Monday. I 

will remind you next week, but I wanted to let you know for 

your planning purposes. 

Have a good weekend. We will see you Monday. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Anything we need to address? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I wanted to address that 

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Illa Falistine No. 1 translation discrepancy issue.

THE COURT: Everybody can be seated.

MR. JONAS: We looked at the one on the Court's 

website from the last trial, which is not the one that was 

admitted in the last trial. We gave a copy to our translator 

Mr. Shafik. He says that is not on FBI product. We don't 

know where it came from. Maybe it did come from us, but if it 

came from us we didn't produce it. It is possible that it 

could have been given to us by the person that gave us the 

original document, and somehow that one went on the Court's 

website instead of the one that was actually admitted in the 

last trial and this trial. 

I think it is completely improper for Ms. Hollander to 

ask Agent Burns about the discrepancy to the translation that 

we did not create.

THE COURT: And I would agree, if that is the case. 

So it is on the Court's website? 

MR. JONAS: It is on the Court's website.

THE COURT: And how can you tell that that is not 

the one that was admitted.

MR. JONAS: There is a file number on it which is 

not an FBI file number. 

THE COURT: And I understand, for the record, that 

we found some mistakes on that website from the first trial. 

We tried to get in there as we were dealing with some of these 

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early motions that were filed, motions for acquittal from I 

think Ms. Cadeddu that we were dealing with early on. So we 

got on there looking at some of these exhibits, and we knew 

that some of them were incorrect. So that is not a completely 

accurate, but I am just trying to determine how you know that 

this particular exhibit is not -- 

MR. JONAS: Besides the file number, there are other 

markings on there that are inconsistent with what the FBI 

would do in creating the translation, as well as having shown 

it to Mr. Shafik who said that is not his product. 

And everything we have regarding the exhibit for the 

first trial, when we looked up on our documents as well as 

some other indicators, all indicate the translation we are 

using today is the exact same translation we used last time. 

And for the Court, I think all we did was just take that 

exhibit and slap a new sticker on it. In fact, I am being 

told on ours you can see the old exhibit sticker underneath 

it. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Well, ours has the Government's 

exhibit sticker on it, and I don't know how that could have 

gotten on it unless it was the Government's. And last time 

they actually introduced the whole -- We had an issue about 

Illa Falistine No. 1, and I believe they introduced a large 

portion of it than they did this time. But it had the 

Government sticker on the front, and it is the one that we 

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have always believed was the one that was admitted. 

I mean, I would like to see what it is that they have 

found, and perhaps Mr. Jonas could explain to me why this one 

with the Government's exhibit sticker on it is not a 

Government product. But it just seems odd to me it has the 

Government's identification from that case on the front page. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, it is very possible that the 

original exhibit in Arabic was the one that we used at trial, 

and somehow there is another translation that was attached to 

it that went to the Court. Like I said, it could have been 

the translation that came to us from a third party, and that 

that somehow was the one that went for the website, but was 

not the one -- 

THE COURT: What third party was doing the 

translation? 

MR. JONAS: If Your Honor will recall, there was 

testimony about the Boim lawsuit that the HLF was sued at. In 

fact, that is where the depositions came from. That document, 

Illa Falistine No. 1, was a document that was shown to the 

Defendant Shukri Baker and discussed in his deposition. And 

so with the deposition we got a copy of Illa Falistine No. 1. 

So I am assuming, considering that, that the translation that 

is on the Court's website is a translation that we received 

from a third party. I can't say that for sure, but I can say 

that from everything that we have seen and being told is it is 

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not an FBI product. It is not what was used in the last 

trial.

THE COURT: Why don't you get with Ms. Hollander and 

show her what you have and what you are talking about in terms 

of the markings and the things you are explaining here. It 

may be that we need to get the translator Mr. Shafik, get him 

on the witness stand and testify at some point.

MR. JONAS: He is here if you want to do it right 

now.

MS. HOLLANDER: I would like an opportunity to look 

at this, and not do it right now if we can, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Because I would like to be able to 

sit down, look at this, look at ours, and see where they came 

from.

THE COURT: Do you have -- Did you get the exhibits 

on disk the last time from the Government? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes.

THE COURT: And do you still have those? Have you 

gone back to look at that? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes.

MS. DUNCAN: We do have the disks, Your Honor. We 

pulled this off the website, and I haven't compared the 

website --

THE COURT: Go back and look at your disk and see 

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that, and then get with Mr. Jonas. Maybe you can work it out. 

If not, we will have to have a hearing and I will have to make 

a decision on it. But see if you can work that out. 

MS. HOLLANDER: We can look at the ones on our disk. 

We just had no reason to think that the one on the website was 

not correct.

THE COURT: Well, except -- You wouldn't think that, 

but we have found mistakes on there. And of course we weren't 

involved in that, so I don't have any explanation other than 

we found mistakes on the website when we were going back 

looking for exhibits for our orders that we were doing on 

motions. So we know it is not a perfect list, that website.

MS. HOLLANDER: If Mr. Jonas would be in town 

tomorrow we can --

MR. JONAS: I haven't been home for a while. I was 

planning on going home tonight.

THE COURT: Why not Monday morning, or if you have 

time now, at least let her know what you are looking at.

MS. HOLLANDER: If they can give me a copy of what 

it is they think was on the website -- what it is they think 

was introduced, then I will have that plus the website plus 

ours.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JONAS: It is the same thing that is in 

evidence. We can print them a copy off the disk we have.

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THE COURT: So what you are saying is what is in 

evidence now is what was introduced the same time.

MR. JONAS: It is the same.

MS. HOLLANDER: We will look at the disk.

THE COURT: All right. And then the issue that 

remains still is this chronological order -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: We have -- Tomorrow we are going to 

try to figure out what of those six documents, those six parts 

we actually -- As I said to you, I want to isolate what is 

106. I mean, I wasn't anticipating having to do it as 106, 

but I will isolate that so you don't have to read 50 pages, 

because we are not going to need to put in 50 pages nor will 

50 pages be 106.

THE COURT: And that is a separate issue of what 

comes in, besides what the Government put in. But then you 

are still dealing with this issue of trying to establish the 

chronological order, and that is a different issue.

MS. HOLLANDER: We will see if we can find the 

example -- 

THE COURT: My concern there is, I mean, you have to 

find somebody to do it through. Obviously you can't do that.

MS. HOLLANDER: I think it will be obvious.

THE COURT: Well, yeah. But somebody is going to 

have to look at it and then make that determination that it is 

obvious or not. 

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MS. HOLLANDER: I mean, it may be that it is going 

to have to be a jury decision if nobody knows. They can 

read -- 

THE COURT: No. You are going to have to present 

some evidence that this is chronological. I mean, you can't 

introduce that as your exhibit and not have any evidence to 

support what you are saying. There has to be some evidence.

MS. HOLLANDER: I think it will be obvious from 

reading the transcript.

THE COURT: Reading which transcripts? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Reading the transcript of how a 

conversation flows.

THE COURT: How it flows? Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Give me a chance to figure that out. 

Otherwise I will figure out some other way. 

Mr. Jonas admitted theirs are not in chronological order, 

so my question is --

THE COURT: I think they are saying they don't know 

what the chronological order is. 

MR. JONAS: I tried to put it in order that followed 

the logical -- followed the questions I was asking her. I 

struggled very hard with trying to come up with a way of 

asking the questions regarding the Philadelphia conference in 

a manner that flowed instead of saying, "Let's put in a tape 

and play what are they saying." So I ordered it that way. I 

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can't say it was chronological order when I first started or 

it ended up in chronological order or what. 

And frankly, Your Honor, I understand Ms. Hollander's 

point, but I don't think it makes a difference at the end of 

the day.

MS. HOLLANDER: I do think it makes a difference. 

But let me see if I can figure out a way to make it obvious.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. 

MS. HOLLANDER: And that is what I will try to do.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Be back, then, at I 

guess 8:30 Monday morning and we will take up some of these 

issues and see where we are. 

(End of Day.)

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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts 06/05/2009

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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