IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ( NUMBER 3: 04-240-G 

(

(

VERSUS ( 

(

(

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL. ( July 16, 2007

__________________________________________________________

VOLUME 1

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BEFORE THE HONORABLE A. JOE FISH

__________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S:

For the Government: MR. JIM JACKS

MR. BARRY JONAS

MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

MR. NATHAN GARRETT

Assistant United States Attorney

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

U.S. Courthouse 

1100 Commerce Street

Dallas, Texas 75242

214/659-8600

For the Defendant and Shukri Abu Baker:

MS. NANCY HOLLANDER 

MS. TERESA DUNCAN

FREEDMAN BOYD DANIELS 

HOLLANDER 

20 First Plaza, Suite 700 

Albuquerque, NM 87102

505/842-9960 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

1

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
For the Defendant El-Mezain:

MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

14 Wall Street, 28th Floor

New York, NY 10005

212/732-0707 

For the Defendant Mufid Abdulqader:

MS. MARLO CADEDDU

LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

3232 McKinney Avenue, Suite 700

Dallas, Texas 75204

214/744-3015 

For the Defendant Elashi:

MS. LINDA MORENO

LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

PO BOX 10985 

Tampa, Florida 33679

 813-247-4500 

For the Defendant Odeh: 

 MR. GREG WESTFALL

WESTFALL PLATT CUTRER

Mallick Tower

One Summit Avenue, Suite 910

Fort Worth, Texas 76102

817/877-1700

Court Reporter: Cassidi L. Casey, CSR No. 1703

1100 Commerce Street, Rm 15D6L

Dallas, Texas 75242

214/354-3139

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
P R O C E E D I N G S:

THE COURT: Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. 

I have a few preliminary matters that I need to cover with 

you before we begin questioning the individual members of 

the venire. However, I hope to make this brief so that we 

can stay on schedule today. 

First, I wanted to inform you that Ms. Hudson 

either has or will before the members of the venire come 

up administer to them the general oath that I usually have 

administered in the courtroom. So we don't need to worry 

about that. 

Second, we have not previously discussed or 

established what order the questioning will go in; that 

is, whether the government or defendant will go first. 

But the procedure being utilized here is one that has been 

proposed by the defendants, and I don't know if it's fair 

to say the government has opposed it, but certainly they 

have expressed doubts about it, and so it seemed to me 

that we ought to have the defendants' counsel go first in 

questioning the members of the venire and the government 

second. 

And finally, I had a request this morning by Ms. 

Moreno that when the potential juror is being questioned 

that rather than have them stand at the lectern that we 

seat them in the jury box here and have questioning 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

3

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
counsel stand at the lectern, and I wanted to find out if 

the government had a position about that. 

MR. JACKS: We have no objection, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Let's try it. My only concern about 

it is the person being questioned will not have a 

microphone available. And there may be an issue if they 

are soft spoken, but I'm willing to give it to try. 

MR. JACKS: I would object to the Court 

determining that the defendants have the opportunity to 

question first. That's contrary to the standard practice, 

and I'm not sure if that practice goes because the 

government has the burden of proof, but generally the 

government has the opportunity to examine the panel after 

the Court does. 

THE COURT: So you want to go first? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. Well, as I said, I thought we 

should do it the other way because the defendants were the 

proponents of this procedure, and at least in the past, 

Mr. Jacks, you expressed some reservations about it, but 

if you want to go first, I'm willing to do that, too, 

since generally the government goes first in criminal 

cases. 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, one technical point. 

We had discussed the issues of challenges for cause, and 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

4

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
we wanted to throw this out because it will come up. What 

we feel the best way would be if a challenge is developed 

as soon as the juror leaves we would state our challenge 

to the Court. 

THE COURT: You said you had discussed that, 

what is the government's position on that. 

MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine. 

THE COURT: We'll take a brief recess while the 

first group of jurors are being brought to the courtroom, 

and when they are up here, we'll commence. We're on a 

tight time schedule, and I intend to enforce this 

fifteen-minute time limit strictly in questioning the 

venire. 

(Recess)

THE COURT: Good morning, Ladies and 

Gentlemen. Mr. Epperson, counsel for the parties have 

some questions for you in this case. Mr. Westfall, do you 

have questions for Mr. Epperson? 

MR. WESTFALL: I do, your Honor. Mr. Epperson, 

I'm Greg Westfall. I'm one of defense lawyers in this 

case. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: How are you this morning? 

VENIRE PERSON: Good. 

MR. WESTFALL: Good. Thank you for coming. In 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

5

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
your questionnaire you said you have observed the 

Palestinian-Israeli conflict somewhat well. Is that 

correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: Just what I read in the 

newspapers and see on television. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, let me tell you this case 

is the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development 

that is a Muslim charity that in this case is charged or 

accused of giving material support to a terrorist 

organization, specifically HAMAS. From anything you have 

read or heard in the news, does that ring a bell? 

VENIRE PERSON: I remember reading something in 

the newspapers when the case first came out. I think it 

was in Richardson or something like that, and I live in 

Garland. That's all I heard about it right there. I 

probably read some of those news accounts. 

. 

MR. WESTFALL: From what you have read and what 

you have heard, have you formed any opinions about the 

guilt or innocence of the defendants in the case? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I didn't read that much 

about it. Just a couple of paragraphs or headlines, 

whatever was in the paper. 

MR. WESTFALL: We have a Muslim charity charged 

with, like I said -- accused of giving material support to 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

6

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
a foreign terrorist organization. So obviously we have 

Islamic and then terrorism in the same sentence. 

Is there anything about the nature of those 

charges that would make it difficult for you to be fair 

and impartial or be able to render a fair verdict based 

just on the evidence in court? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: I probably do in a roundabout 

way, maybe from college days, but no close associates or 

anything like that. 

MR. WESTFALL: So have you had any bad 

experiences with Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Any good experience? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Epperson, thank you so much 

for speaking with us. We tender the juror to counsel. 

THE COURT: Counsel for the government have 

questions? 

MR. JACKS: Just briefly, your Honor. Mr. 

Epperson, my name is Jim Jacks. I'm an Assistant United 

States Attorney here in Dallas. Good morning. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good morning. 

MR. JACKS: How long have you been retired, sir? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

7

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Six years. 

MR. JACKS: Does your wife work? 

VENIRE PERSON: A teacher also. 

MR. JACKS: Is she retired or does she still 

work? 

VENIRE PERSON: She still works. 

MR. JACKS: You didn't mark it necessarily on 

your questionnaire, and I assume that may be because you 

don't remember. But your prior jury service, as far as 

when that was approximately? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think I have been three or 

four times there at the criminal courthouse and all within 

the last ten to twelve years. 

MR. JACKS: Would that be in Hunt County, 

Rockwall County or Dallas County, Texas? 

VENIRE PERSON: Dallas County, Texas. 

MR. JACKS: No further questions, your Honor. 

I'm sorry. I do have one question. I'm sorry. 

Mr. Epperson, I expect the Judge -- I know the 

Judge will give the jury instructions after all the 

evidence has been presented. He would tell you what the 

law is, and I expect that he would tell you that if an 

individual provides material support to a designated 

terrorist group knowing that it's going to a designated 

terrorist group, even if that support is in the form of 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

8

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
humanitarian aid -- it could be books, food or soccer 

balls or anything like that. Even if that support is of 

that nature, it's still a violation of the law. Would you 

have any problem accepting that instruction and following 

that aspect of the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, sir. 

THE COURT: Mr. Epperson, you may rejoin the 

others in the hall. Thank you. 

Good morning, Ms. Gartman. Counsel for the 

parties in this case have some questions for you. 

Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. 

Hello, Ms. Gartman. I'm Greg Westfall. I'm one 

of the defense lawyers in this case. 

This case is the case of Holy Land Foundation 

for Relief and Development which is a Muslim charity 

accused of giving support to a foreign terrorist 

organization and that terrorist organization is HAMAS. 

Knowing that, does that ring any bells from anything you 

have seen in the media? 

VENIRE PERSON: I vaguely remember that it was 

recorded on TV. I don't know when. I saw one report on 

it. That's all. That's the only thing I remember. 

MR. WESTFALL: Based on that, have you reached 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

9

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
any opinions about the case? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I don't really remember it. 

I have not been in the City of Dallas very much the last 

three or four years, and I might have seen one report on 

it, and I haven't formed any opinion because I really 

don't know anything. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have been doing work out of 

town a lot? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I took care of my parents in 

Arkansas. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, this is a criminal case, 

and in any criminal case the defendants have a number of 

protections. One of them is that the jury reaches a fair 

verdict based upon only the evidence that comes out in 

trial? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And another one is that everyone 

who's charged in the United States with a crime is 

presumed innocent unless and until the government proves 

its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and you are familiar 

with both of those? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And in this case we have Muslims 

who are charged with material support of terrorism. Think 

about those charges for a second. The nature of the case, 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

10

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
particularly in this day and age and the nature of those 

charges, will it be possible for you fairly to give the 

defendants the benefit of the presumption of innocence? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think so, yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you had good experiences, 

bad experiences? 

VENIRE PERSON: Some good and some bad. I had a 

brother-in-law that was a Muslim. 

MR. WESTFALL: Really. 

VENIRE PERSON: It was my sister's husband, and 

they have since divorced. 

MR. WESTFALL: Is that one of the bad 

experiences? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, that was the bad 

experience. Until they divorced, it was okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have an opinion of Muslims 

in general? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, not really. They are like 

everybody else. There are fanatics and some that aren't 

fanatics. Some good, some bad, just like any other person 

or group on earth. 

MR. WESTFALL: I'll just ask you, could you give 

a fair and impartial verdict rendered only on the evidence 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

11

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
in court if you are on the jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Ms. Gartman, thank you very much. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

THE COURT: Counsel for the government have 

questions for Ms. Gartman? 

MR. JACKS: Good morning, Ms. Gartman. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good morning. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks and I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas. Your 

former brother-in-law, you said he was Muslim. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: What nationality was he? 

VENIRE PERSON: He was from Iran. 

MR. JACKS: And how long has it been since he 

was divorced from your sister? 

VENIRE PERSON: Nine years. 

MR. JACKS: Is he still in this country? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Do you or your sister have contact 

with him? 

? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I haven't talked to him in 

like eleven years. 

MR. JACKS: I believe in one of your answers you 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

12

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
said you had been out of Dallas for some time. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. Up until my mother died in 

November and I came back to Dallas. I was part time in 

Arkansas, and I would bring my mother down here. So I was 

here for three months at a time, and I would go back up 

there for three months at a time. 

MR. JACKS: One of the lists that we have -- I 

think on the questionnaire -- you showed that you were a 

homemaker, and we have another list that shows you work as 

an item processor. 

VENIRE PERSON: I quit in 2002 I think, and then 

I haven't worked since then. I just stayed home. When I 

wasn't taking care of my mom and dad I was home. 

MR. JACKS: What kind of work does your husband 

do? 

VENIRE PERSON: He's a project manager for a 

laboratory. 

MR. JACKS: Who did you last work for? 

VENIRE PERSON: Ten years, Provident Bank, Bank 

One, Chase. 

MR. JACKS: Is that what used to be called the 

proof department of bank? 

VENIRE PERSON: I worked in proof part of time, 

and the last several years I worked in item processing 

which is where after the proof they run through the 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

13

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
sorter, and I did the balancing work on that. Mostly, I 

dealt with incoming checks rather than outgoing checks. 

MR. JACKS: Let me ask you some questions 

specifically about this case. At the end of all the 

testimony when both sides have rested their case, the 

Judge has written instructions in which he tells the jury 

what the law is so that you can use that to render your 

verdict. One of the instructions that will be included in 

that explanation of the law is that with regards to the 

charge of providing material support to a terrorist 

organization. One of those instructions will be that even 

if the support is in the nature of humanitarian aid -- 

clothing, school backpacks, pencils, soccer balls, food. 

Even if the aid is in that form, it's still against the 

law. First of all, would you be able to follow that 

instruction? 

VENIRE PERSON: Uh-huh. 

MR. JACKS: You don't have any question or 

disagreement with that aspect of the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you. That's all. 

THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Gartman. You may 

rejoin the others in the hall. 

THE COURT: Good morning Ms. Pritchard. 

Counsel for the parties in this case have some questions 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

14

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
for you. Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. 

Ms. Pritchard, I'm Greg Westfall. I'm one of 

the defense lawyers in this case. How are you doing? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm fine. 

MR. WESTFALL: I want to speak with you very 

briefly. 

VENIRE PERSON: What now? 

MR. WESTFALL: Can you hear me? 

VENIRE PERSON: I didn't hear that. 

MR. WESTFALL: I said I want to speak with you 

briefly. Do you remember the questionnaire you filled 

out? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: In response to the question about 

the Palestine-Israeli conflict you said something to the 

effect that both sides are Looney Toons and in serious 

need of intervention. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Tell us more about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm sixty. I have seen a lot of 

conflict around the world that I just think is crazy. 

It's just crazy. They have been fighting for five 

thousand years, you know, technically. And beyond it. I 

have never hated anyone. I have never had anyone hate me. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

15

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
I don't understand. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have a sense of who's is 

right or wrong in that conflict? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I think both sides are 

stupid. 

MR. WESTFALL: So is there anything about 

that -- Let me tell you this case is a Holy Land 

Foundation case, and the United States government is 

charging the Holy Land Foundation and these men of giving 

material support to a foreign terrorist organization, 

HAMAS. Does that ring any bells with you from anything 

you have heard or read? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think right after the towers 

went down I read something about they were looking into 

the Holy Land Foundation. I follow the news, but not that 

closely. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. Actually I work in a 

counseling agency, and we have interns that come and go 

with the different semesters, and actually we have a 

Muslim young woman that's working with us right now, and 

in the past we have had Muslims. We have had Hindus, 

Christians, Jews, everything. 

MR. WESTFALL: What agency is that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Irving Advocacy Center. It's 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

16

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
funded by the city. 

MR. WESTFALL: Does that like work in the 

divorce courts? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, actually we are a community 

counseling agency. We were started to deal with families 

whose children got in trouble, teenagers, but over the 

years we have evolved into individual and marital family 

counseling. 

MR. WESTFALL: And have you had good experiences 

with the Muslim people that you have worked with? 

VENIRE PERSON: In fact, one of them is so funny 

because she was with us through Ramadan, and she would 

come in and say I'm starving to death and it's not in 

sundown. So we would ask her to explain. 

MR. WESTFALL: What did you think about it? 

VENIRE PERSON: We had heard it before, but it 

was interesting to hear her personal take on it. When the 

month came to a close, why they had to wait for a certain 

hour. 

MR. WESTFALL: What ultimately happened to her? 

VENIRE PERSON: She moved on. She's probably in 

private counseling now. Her husband was a doctor. 

MR. WESTFALL: Now, there are protections that 

are for defendants on trial in a criminal case. Do you 

know what they are? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

17

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: A couple of them are the 5th 

Amendment, the right not to incriminate yourself or 

testify; the right to have the government prove its case 

beyond a reasonable doubt. And then a presumption of 

innocence. The point of all of this is the decision has 

to be made on just the evidence, and that's why we talk 

about the opinions and such that might keep a person from 

doing that. 

Do you think you could be fair and impartial in 

a case involving a Muslim charity charged with material 

support to a terrorist organization? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you so much? 

VENIRE PERSON: You are welcome. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Pritchard? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor. 

MR. JACKS: Good morning, Ms. Pritchard. My 

name is Jim Jacks. I'm an Assistant United States 

Attorney here in the Northern District of Texas at Dallas. 

In your questionnaire, you were asked if there 

were any potential medical problems that might affect your 

ability to serve in this case, and you mentioned diabetes 

and in terms of how that might present a problem if you 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

18

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
had a potential drop in blood sugar. Would that manifest 

itself in fatigue or drowsiness? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. It usually causes shakes 

and sweating. 

MR. JACKS: And you are able to regulate that; 

is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have an insulin pump, but 

sometimes things happen. 

MR. JACKS: Are you concerned that could be a 

problem if you were selected to serve on this jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know. I have been at 

this for over forty years, so it's kind of second nature. 

MR. JACKS: As far as handling the disease? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: I believe you said your husband is a 

retired school counselor. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. He has MS. 

MR. JACKS: I'm sorry. 

VENIRE PERSON: And it's affecting his mind. 

He's losing ground. 

MR. JACKS: And you are his sole care giver? 

VENIRE PERSON: He does all right. Like today 

he would be all right until I get home. He might forget 

to eat, but that's okay. 

MR. JACKS: And obviously you have provided that 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

19

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
information in your questionnaire. Is that something that 

you would be concerned about while you were here in court 

and on the jury? Obviously you are concerned about it. 

Is it something that would --

VENIRE PERSON: There is no chance that we would 

be sequestered, is there? 

MR. JACKS: Well, the Judge makes that decision. 

THE COURT: I don't know that I would say no 

chance, but the chances are minimal. I have been here 

almost twenty-five years, and I have never sequestered a 

jury. 

VENIRE PERSON: That would be the only thing. I 

would not, you know, want to be gone from him day after 

day, night after night. 

MR. JACKS: Do you have other family in town 

that could help you if something came up? 

VENIRE PERSON: My brother lives in Midlothian, 

and that's really about it. We do have friends, but my 

family is kind of scattered. 

MR. JACKS: Well, I believe you said the agency 

that you worked for has an office inside the Irving Police 

Department. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, because we were originally 

set up as a diversion program for juvenile offenders. We 

were originally funded through the police department. So 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

20

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
we continue to be funded through the police department. 

Our building that we have been in five years, we have the 

lower floor, and upstairs is the officers that deal with 

the victims of abuse and domestic violence, and CPS has 

offices up there, and our victims abuse case workers are 

upstairs. 

MR. JACKS: In your questionnaire you advised us 

that your brother and his wife are police officers with 

the Dallas Police Department? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, Richard has within DPD 

twenty-three years, and his wife retired after 

twenty-five. She's still a reserve officer. 

MR. JACKS: Your brother's name? 

VENIRE PERSON: Richard Kress. 

MR. JACKS: Where he did he work in DPD? 

VENIRE PERSON: He's in personnel. He does 

background. 

MR. JACKS: But he's a police officer, as was 

his wife? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Where did she work? 

VENIRE PERSON: First she worked Southwest 

Division, and that's where they met. And when she got 

pregnant, she went to the academy and worked there for a 

while, and then she went to the crime unit. They don't 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

21

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
call it CSI, but that's what it's like. 

MR. JACKS: Physical evidence section or 

something? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, she did fingerprinting and 

photographing and checking the fingerprints and stuff. 

MR. JACKS: Lastly I want to ask you your 

opinion about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Had you 

done any -- Research may be too strong a word. But have 

you read about it to try to learn the source of conflict 

or anything like that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, oh, yes. I'm kind of an 

amateur student of history. So yes, I probably know more 

than I want to know about it. 

MR. JACKS: How long have you been doing that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think I have been aware that 

there was a conflict practically since I was aware of 

anything because I was born in 1946, and the division 

happened in 1948, and it's been a conflict since then. 

MR. JACKS: You mentioned -- The questionnaire 

asked about wire taps and that type of thing. Your 

response was as long as there was a warrant issued before 

the taps by the judge. Does that mean if there was a 

warrant you have no problem accepting that type of 

evidence? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

22

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: The last question I want to ask you 

is, as Mr. Westfall said, this case is about individuals 

and an organization who are accused of providing material 

support to a foreign terrorist organization, specifically 

HAMAS. After the evidence is in and both sides have 

rested their case, the Judge will read the law to the jury 

which tells them what the statutes say and what law they 

are supposed to apply to the evidence. Part of that 

instruction and that law will be even if the aid provided 

to the foreign terrorist organization is in the form of 

humanitarian aid such as food, clothing, school equipment, 

medical equipment, even if it's in that type of 

humanitarian form, it's still against the law to provide 

that type of material to a foreign terrorist organization. 

Do you have any problem following that part of the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't think so. 

MR. JACKS: Do you have some doubt in your mind 

as to whether you could? 

VENIRE PERSON: Maybe a tiny bit, you know. But 

if it's the law, the way it's applied. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, your time has expired. 

Thank you, Ms. Pritchard. You may rejoin the others in 

the hall. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we would ask Ms. 

Pritchard be excused for cause given her last answer that 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

23

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
she may have a tiny bit of a problem following that 

portion of the law, and we would ask that she be excused 

for cause. 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I don't think they 

have made a challenge for cause. I don't think they built 

cause on this woman. First of all, it was the 

prosecutor's rendition of the law; it wasn't the Court's 

rendition of the law. And second of all, the last thing 

she said was if it's the law. I think she will follow it, 

your Honor. 

THE COURT: I am going to take the challenge for 

cause of Ms. Pritchard under advisement for the moment. 

And Mr. Kiblinger, do we have the next person here, Ms. 

Constantinescu. 

Good morning, Ms. Constantinescu. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good morning. 

THE COURT: Counsel for the parties in this case 

have questions for you. Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. 

Constantinescu, do you go by Dr. Constantinescu? 

VENIRE PERSON: Doctor of cardiology, yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do people address you as doctor? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, because I am a Ph.D. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, Doctor, good morning. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

24

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Thank you for coming in. You speak very softly, so would 

you please kind of speak up when I'm talking to you a 

little bit so that we can all hear you. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you. The questionnaire you 

filled out in response to a question that had to do with 

Israel and Palestine, I want to talk to you about your 

response. I'm Greg Westfall, and I represent one of the 

defendants in this Holy Land Foundation case, and this 

case is the Holy Land Foundation -- the United States 

government versus the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and 

Development. And what it is a Muslim charity who has been 

accused and some of its employees -- who have been accused 

of giving material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization, specifically HAMAS. Does that ring a bell 

with you? Have you heard anything about this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: What have you heard? 

VENIRE PERSON: I heard this morning on the 

radio. 

MR. WESTFALL: Which station? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think KRLD. 

MR. WESTFALL: KRLD? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Had you heard about it before 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

25

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
this morning? 

VENIRE PERSON: A long time ago. I don't know 

exactly. 

MR. WESTFALL: But based upon what you have 

heard, what are your feelings? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know the truth. I don't 

know the situation. 

MR. WESTFALL: You don't know the situation? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: So have you formed any opinions 

based upon what you have heard? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, because I don't know even 

where they are located and what they did. I don't know 

the facts. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims or have 

you known any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, we have a Muslim in our 

group at school. I am retired now, but I still work part 

time for UT Southwestern Medical Center, and he's very 

nice guy. 

MR. WESTFALL: Very nice guy? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Did he go to the mosque and 

things like that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know his personal life. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

26

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
He's a good worker, also Ph.D. He's from Iran or Saudi 

Arabia. I don't know where. 

MR. WESTFALL: But you liked him? 

VENIRE PERSON: I like him. 

MR. WESTFALL: Did you have any contact with 

Muslim in Romania? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, there were no Muslims. We 

came in 1984. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you lived there during the 

previous government? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you been on any juries? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Criminal juries? 

VENIRE PERSON: At the other court but I was not 

up to the end. It was postponed. One of them was 

postponed, and I don't remember. This has been maybe four 

and six years back, something. 

MR. WESTFALL: In every criminal case in the 

United States there are certain protections that everyone 

has if they are charged with a crime. One of those is, 

you know the, right not to testify against yourself. You 

are familiar with that? The right if you come into court 

you don't have to testify against yourself. You don't 

have to testify at all. Did you know about that? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

27

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: No. As a juror? 

MR. WESTFALL: No, as a defendant. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I know.

MR. WESTFALL: And you know there is a 

presumption of innocence. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: Everyone is presumed innocent 

unless and until the government proves its case beyond a 

reasonable doubt. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: How do you feel about those? Do 

you think it's fair? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's fair. 

MR. WESTFALL: The effect of that is decisions 

by juries have to be based on what's going on in the court 

and not on what's going on outside the court. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Now, you answered one of your 

questions that you didn't fill like a noncitizen should be 

entitled to Constitutional protection. Do you remember 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: I didn't know if maybe -- You 

answered everything else exactly like you have talked 

about. That one was checked no. Do you think it was 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

28

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
hastily done? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't remember the question. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know that somebody even if 

they are not a citizen is entitled to the protection of 

United States laws if they are charged with crimes? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: How do you feel about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's fair. If the crime was 

done in the United States, no? 

MR. WESTFALL: Right. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: It couldn't be prosecuted in the 

United States if it was done somewhere else? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Yes, that is absolutely correct. 

Tell me about your work. 

VENIRE PERSON: I work as a researcher, 

scientist, in Radiology Department of UT Southwestern 

Medical Center. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you work with a lot of people 

from other countries there? 

VENIRE PERSON: We have students, a lot of 

foreigners, many. Most of them are Indians and Chinese. 

MR. WESTFALL: And how do you like them? 

VENIRE PERSON: If they are good, I like this. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

29

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
If they are not -- 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, if they are incompetent, 

they are just incompetent? 

? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Doesn't matter what race or 

nationality? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: And I have told you about the 

charges, and they actually have that word "terrorism" in 

it. They are Muslims. Can you render a verdict based on 

just the evidence in a case that involves some sort of 

allegations like that in a case? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you feel strongly about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Why do you feel strongly about 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I cannot judge any person unless 

the evidence is very clear. 

MR. WESTFALL: You know the reasonable doubt 

standard is the highest standard in the law. Do you think 

that's fair? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's fair.

MR. WESTFALL: Well, I think I have asked you 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

30

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
all the questions I can ask you. Thank you, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Dr. Constantinescu? 

MR. JACKS: Good morning. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good morning, yes. 

MR. JACKS: Is it pronounced Constantinescu? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes good. Very close. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks. I'm Assistant 

United States Attorney here in Dallas. Just so that I may 

be clear, did both you and your husband immigrate to the 

United States from Romania? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Same time? 

VENIRE PERSON: Same time. And the children. 

Same year but not the same time. 

MR. JACKS: Have you lived anywhere else in the 

United States? 

VENIRE PERSON: Philadelphia for almost one 

year. 

MR. JACKS: And the rest of that time has been 

in this area? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: You said your husband is a chemical 

engineer? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

31

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Is he retired? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Who did he work for? 

VENIRE PERSON: City of Dallas, drinking water 

treatment. 

MR. JACKS: And when did he retire? 

VENIRE PERSON: Last year, 2006. 

MR. JACKS: When did you become a citizen? 

VENIRE PERSON: We come here in 1985 and two 

years after we were citizens. 

MR. JACKS: So 1987? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Your children, have they been 

naturalized as well? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Have you worked at UT Southwestern 

the entire time that you have been in Dallas? 

VENIRE PERSON: Absolutely. Since 1985. 

MR. JACKS: You said that your work is in the 

field of radiology. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. Mostly tumor 

detection, cancer tumor detection. 

MR. JACKS: You said that you may identify or 

refer to yourself as retired but you still work. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, part time. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

32

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: And how much? 

VENIRE PERSON: One day a week. 

MR. JACKS: How do you spend the rest of your 

time? 

VENIRE PERSON: I am quite busy. I have 

children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. 

MR. JACKS: Do you travel very much anymore? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not too much but we do. We go 

to visit our family because we are only ourselves here, 

and all the others are away. 

MR. JACKS: One of the defendants in this case I 

believe the evidence will show at one time worked for the 

City of Dallas. His name is Mufid Abdulqader. 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know that name. 

MR. JACKS: Is it possible that your husband had 

any contact with him? 

VENIRE PERSON: It depends on where he was 

located, his office, and what position he had. My husband 

was a professional in research. He is a professional 

engineer, and he was in research. 

MR. JACKS: You said your husband was in the 

public works department? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, the drinking water. 

MR. JACKS: Did he work in Dallas City Hall? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

33

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Where was his office? 

VENIRE PERSON: Sunnyvale.

MR. JACKS: The Judge will tell the jury -- 

people that are ultimately chosen to be the jury, he would 

tell them what the law is, and he would do that after all 

the evidence is in. After both sides have rested their 

case, and I expect and anticipate that as part of his 

instructions on the law regarding providing -- if a person 

is accused of providing material support to a designated 

terrorist group, I expect the judge will include in those 

instructions an instruction that even if the support is in 

the form of humanitarian aid -- in other words if it's 

food or school supplies or medical equipment, soccer 

balls, anything like that -- even if it's in that form, 

that is still a violation of the law. Do you have any 

disagreement with that provision of the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Could you follow that provision of 

the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: You indicated that you had a 

stepson. 

VENIRE PERSON: That I don't know actually. I 

know he did this, but I don't know him. 

MR. JACKS: And is what you wrote misdemeanor -- 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

34

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
I'm sorry. I couldn't read your handwriting. 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know what it was. It 

was a felony or misdemeanor. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know what happened to him in 

that regard? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, because the Court has --

MR. JACKS: Still pending? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think. 

MR. JACKS: Is that here in Dallas? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, in Nevada. 

MR. JACKS: Is he a college student or --

VENIRE PERSON: No, no. He worked in a store. 

MR. JACKS: Is he grown and moved away from 

home? 

VENIRE PERSON: Oh, yeah. I don't know too 

much. 

MR. JACKS: That's all I have. 

THE COURT: Dr. Constantinescu, you may rejoin 

the others in the hall. Thank you. 

Good morning, Ms. Simental. Counsel for the 

parties have some questions for you. Ms. Moreno. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you. My name is Linda 

Moreno, and I represent one of the gentlemen here in this 

case. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

35

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MS. MORENO: You filled out your questionnaire 

some months ago, do you remember that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And I'm wondering if between the 

time you filled out your questionnaire then and today if 

you have heard any media coverage about this case. This 

is a case that involved the Holy Land Foundation for 

Relief and Development, and I want to know if you have 

heard anything or read anything in the news about it. 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MS. MORENO: This is a case that involves an 

American Muslim charity that the government contends 

provided material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization called HAMAS. Does that ring any bells for 

you? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I'm sorry. 

MS. MORENO: Now that you know what the charges 

are -- because you were aware of the charges when you 

filled out the questionnaire, is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MS. MORENO: Now that you have heard the charges 

in this case are terrorism related, is there anything I 

have told you that causes you concern, that you think 

might affect your ability to be fair in this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: (Shakes head)

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

36

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MS. MORENO: This is a criminal case, and in a 

case like this the government has the burden of proof, and 

they have to prove each charge in this case beyond every 

reasonable doubt. Have you heard that concept before? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: Do you have any problems with that 

issue? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MS. MORENO: In a terrorism case where the 

charges are so serious, do you think the government's 

burden of proof should be any less than? Less than beyond 

every reasonable doubt? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. It should be that way. 

MS. MORENO: So it doesn't matter that it's a 

terrorism case or even a shoplifting case? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MS. MORENO: Do you feel if a case has come this 

far -- here we are assembled and talking to jurors -- that 

there might be a notion of where there is smoke there is 

fire? 

VENIRE PERSON: I guess now I do. 

MS. MORENO: Explain what those thoughts are? 

VENIRE PERSON: I just don't know what it's all 

about. I think it just has to be something serious. 

MS. MORENO: And because you say something 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

37

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
serious, does that cause you any kind of concern in your 

ability to sit as a juror if you are chosen? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MS. MORENO: You don't have any issues or 

problems with that? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MS. MORENO: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MS. MORENO: Never worked with any or known any? 

VENIRE PERSON: I work in a dentist's office. 

So we see a lot of people, but no, individually as a 

friend, no. 

MS. MORENO: And what do you do in the dentist's 

office. 

VENIRE PERSON: Front office.

MS. MORENO: Receptionist? 

VENIRE PERSON: In-take and insurance, right. 

MS. MORENO: Now, you are bilingual. Is that 

correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: Would you agree with me that he 

when someone is translating one language to another that 

the words can be translated correctly but the meaning is 

not? 

MR. JACKS: Judge, I object to this question. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

38

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
That doesn't go to this juror's qualifications to serve as 

a juror. 

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead, Ms. Moreno. 

MS. MORENO: You can answer. When I said that 

to you, what were you thinking? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's true. I know in the 

Spanish language you say something or translate and it's 

not totally the same as you meant it to be and vice versa. 

MS. MORENO: And does that also vary from Cubans 

Dominicans to Mexicans? Would you agree? 

VENIRE PERSON: I would agree to that, yes. 

MS. MORENO: Now, in this case the government 

alleges that the charity supported HAMAS, this terrorist 

organization, by distributing humanitarian aid through 

certain charities and committees in Palestine, in the West 

Bank in Gaza. That's what they allege. 

My question is, if at the end of the case you 

believe the government has shown that the Holy Land 

Foundation distributed humanitarian aid in the form of 

food, medicine, rebuilding of homes that were 

demolished -- if that's what you learned in this case and 

you were not convinced that that in any way supported a 

foreign terrorist organization, could you vote not guilty? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

39

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Simental? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor. 

Good morning, Ms. Simental. Did I pronounce 

that right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Pretty close. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks and I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas. I too 

have follow-up questions from the questionnaire you filled 

out sometime ago. We have also got another form that was 

provided to us by the Clerk. One of the things that is 

not clear is what does your husband do? 

VENIRE PERSON: He works for Highlight as 

quality control. 

MR. JACKS: What does Highlight do? 

VENIRE PERSON: Highlight does brake valves, 

automotive parts for Chrysler. I don't know what other 

companies. They do just brake valves. 

MR. JACKS: Is that a manufacturing facility? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And how long have you worked for 

this dental office that you work in? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fourteen years. 

MR. JACKS: Is El Paso where you grew up? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

40

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Have you lived anywhere other than 

El Paso since you moved to Dallas? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Is your husband from the Dallas area 

or El Paso? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, he's from El Paso. 

MR. JACKS: Regarding the conflict that exists 

between the State of Israeli and the Palestinians, have 

you followed that at all? 

VENIRE PERSON: Normally, I don't watch a lot of 

TV at all. I go home, and there is other priorities I 

need to take care of, and then I sit down. My husband 

will probably know, but not me. 

MR. JACKS: Do you mind if I ask you how long 

your husband has worked for highlight? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fourteen years. 

MR. JACKS: And again, it wasn't clear to me. 

Do you have any children or are they all away from home? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I have my two girls at home. 

They are twenty-five and one just went to Baylor 

University. Twenty-five and twenty-one. 

MR. JACKS: And is the younger one the one that 

is at Baylor? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Is the older one finished? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

41

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Not yet. She's attending UTD 

Dallas. 

MR. JACKS: Kind of touching upon what defense 

counsel mentioned to you, as she said, this case 

essentially charges the Holy Land Foundation as well as 

five of its directors or employees with conspiring to 

provide material support to a designated foreign terrorist 

organization, and that organization specifically is HAMAS. 

Have you heard of that organization before? 

VENIRE PERSON: (Shakes head)

MR. JACKS: You have not? 

VENIRE PERSON: (Shakes head)

MR. JACKS: After all the evidence has been 

presented, after both sides have had the chance to present 

whatever witnesses or documents they want to present, the 

Judge will tell the jury what the law is with regard to 

this case. He would tell you what the United States law 

is about providing material support to a terrorist 

organization. Part of those instructions or part of that 

explanation to you will include a statement or an 

instruction that even humanitarian aid in the form -- 

which could be in the form of food or clothing, medical 

supplies, school supplies, backpacks, anything like that. 

Even material support of that nature, if it's provided to 

or for the benefit of a foreign terrorist organization, 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

42

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
that's against the law. Do you understand that concept 

and do you have any problem or disagreement with that? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I understand. 

MR. JACKS: Do you believe that you could follow 

that instruction if the Judge told you that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, ma'am. 

THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Simental. You may 

rejoin the others in the hall. 

Good morning. Counsel for the parties have some 

questions for you. 

MR. WESTFALL: Good morning, I'm Greg 

Westfall, Mr. Baccus. 

VENIRE PERSON: Nice to meet you. 

MR. WESTFALL: Nice to meet you. This is a 

criminal case, as you know, and it's about a Muslim 

foundation, Holy Land Foundation for Relief and 

Development and accusations that the charity gave support 

to a foreign terrorist organization called HAMAS. Does 

that ring any bells with you? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have heard it. I didn't 

follow it. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you heard anything since you 

filled out the questionnaire? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

43

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Based upon what you have heard, 

do you have any opinions? What do you think? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. I heard it on the 

news a couple of years back that they arrested a couple of 

people, and that's about it. 

MR. WESTFALL: Were you living in Oklahoma City? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm from Oklahoma City. 

MR. WESTFALL: Were you living in Oklahoma City 

at the time of the Edward Murrow Building? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I was. I was in high 

school. 

MR. WESTFALL: How did that affect you? How do 

you feel about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: It was upsetting that it 

happened in our home city and our home state. I was 

sitting in high school English class actually, and you 

could feel the bomb when it went off. We thought it was 

thunder and went outside, and it was a clear sky. 

MR. WESTFALL: Ultimately we found out those 

were domestic guys that did that, but in the beginning 

there was a lot of speculation as to who it might have 

been. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: But that's deep experience, 

something that sticks with you. And this case doesn't 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

44

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
involve anything like that, but the word "terrorism" is in 

the charge. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: How do you feel about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, whether it's a white 

person or Middle Eastern, terrorism is terrorism in my 

eyes. 

MR. WESTFALL: In this case the ultimate 

decision is going to be whether charitable contributions 

that were sent over to Palestine -- whether those gave 

material support to HAMAS.

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: How do you feel about being on a 

jury where we're looking at issues of supporting of a 

terrorist organization? How does that strike you? How 

does it move you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, it's upsetting one way or 

the other when you look at it because of what happened on 

9-11 and the worldwide terrorism we have been looking at, 

whether it's over there or whether it's here. I think I 

could make a good decision, looking at all the evidence, 

of being guilty or not guilty. 

MR. WESTFALL: But in a criminal case, the 

ultimate decision, as you say, of guilty or not guilty has 

to be made on the evidence that comes off of this witness 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

45

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
stand or is admitted in evidence. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: It can't be made on experiences 

that we have had. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And people that we know and have 

liked or don't like. And your experience in Oklahoma, is 

that something you think would interfere with your ability 

to render a verdict in this case just based upon the 

evidence? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: I do know one, a friend of a 

friend. 

MR. WESTFALL: A friend of a friend? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you had much contact with 

him? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, not lately. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you think of him? 

VENIRE PERSON: He's a real good guy. We have 

gone out and played golf a couple of times. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you knew he was Muslim. Was 

he religious? 

VENIRE PERSON: We really didn't discuss it. He 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

46

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
was a friend of a fraternity brother of mine and a friend 

of my wife's friend, and I'll see him from time to time. 

I think he's in Kansas City now. 

MR. WESTFALL: What fraternity were you in? 

VENIRE PERSON: Sigma which is Sigma Phi 

Epsilon.

MR. WESTFALL: Right. Where do you work now? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm an insurance agent. 

MR. WESTFALL: Independent? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, I work for State Farm, but 

it's independently owned and operated. 

MR. WESTFALL: And where do you live? 

VENIRE PERSON: Plano. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you live --

VENIRE PERSON: In Addison and commute to Plano. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you have an eighteen-month 

old son? 

VENIRE PERSON: I do. 

MR. WESTFALL: Congratulations. The issue of 

child care, you know this trial could go on for months. 

Is there anything about your and your wife's -- Does she 

work outside the home?

VENIRE PERSON: No, she does not. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have no child care issues. 

You don't have to run back and forth to day care and stuff 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

47

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
like that?

VENIRE PERSON: I do not. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you. We'll tender the 

juror. Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Mr. Baccus?

MR. JACKS: Just briefly, your Honor. 

Good morning, Mr. Baccus. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good morning. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks, and I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas.

VENIRE PERSON: Very nice to meet you, Mr. 

Jacks.

MR. JACKS: You have been in Dallas for seven 

years; is that correct?

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct.

MR. JACKS: Following graduation from college? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct.

MR. JACKS: Have you worked in the insurance 

industry that entire time?

VENIRE PERSON: I have.

MR. JACKS: The same agency?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I was an employee of State 

Farm Insurance for about four years and then became an 

independent agent for them.

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

48

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Has your wife worked outside the 

home?

VENIRE PERSON: She has.

MR. JACKS: What type of profession did she 

have?

VENIRE PERSON: She was a teacher for a year in 

Carrollton-Farmer's Branch school system, and then she 

worked for a lady out of her house for about a year, and 

basically they would contract work with Neiman Marcus and 

a couple of other companies, but basically they would buy 

gifts and accessories overseas, like China, and import 

them and sell them to Neiman Marcus and companies like 

that, and she did that for about six months to a year and 

got pregnant, and we had our son and she's been at home 

ever since.

MR. JACKS: When she was teaching, what grade or 

level did she teach?

VENIRE PERSON: Special education.

MR. JACKS: Several levels or elementary? 

VENIRE PERSON: It was for three and four year 

olds. 

MR. JACKS: One of the -- You have not been on a 

jury before; is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct. First time I 

have ever been called.

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

49

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: One of the things that I want to ask 

you was at the end of the evidence after both sides have 

presented whatever witnesses or documents they intend to 

present, the Judge will read what's known as the Court's 

charge to the jury which basically contains the law that 

the jury is supposed to apply to the facts.

VENIRE PERSON: Okay.

MR. JACKS: And he would explain to you the law 

as it relates to all the charges in the indictment. With 

respect to the law in the United States prohibiting 

persons from providing material support to a foreign 

terrorist organization, I anticipate that he would tell 

you that a part of that law is even if the support, 

whatever it may be -- if it's money or whatever, even if 

the support is in the form of food, clothing, what might 

be called humanitarian aid, backpacks, soccer balls, 

materials for a hospital -- if it is for the benefit or 

use of a foreign terrorist organization it's still against 

the law. Do you have any problem if that instruction is 

given to you or do you have any disagreement with that 

provision of the law?

VENIRE PERSON: No, I don't.

MR. JACKS: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Baccus. You may 

rejoin the others in the hall. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

50

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Good morning, Mr. Maddox. Counsel for the 

parties have some questions for you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Maddox, good morning. I'll 

Greg Westfall. I'm one of the attorneys for the defense 

in this case. This case is the Holy Land Foundation, the 

U.S. Government versus the Holy Land Foundation for Relief 

and Development. It involves a Muslim charity accused of 

material support of a foreign terrorist organization, 

specifically HAMAS. 

Does that ring any bells? Have you heard about 

the case?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: What have you heard? 

VENIRE PERSON: That one of the defendants has 

been found guilty of supporting Syria and another country 

and perhaps having supported HAMAS before. 

MR. WESTFALL: Right.

VENIRE PERSON: It's an important yet difficult 

case for the government. 

MR. WESTFALL: What's your opinion? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know that I have much of 

one at this point. 

MR. WESTFALL: Is there anything about what you 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

51

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
said that would -- a criminal trial is supposed to be 

ideally decided on the evidence from the courtroom. Is 

there anything you have seen or heard that would make it 

difficult for you to do that?

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Tell me about international 

politics. That was your degree? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Was that MBA?

VENIRE PERSON: No. My undergraduate degree is 

in international politics. I went to Georgetown. And 

it's still something I enjoy, still do.

MR. WESTFALL: Georgetown has a lot of political 

programs? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Were you a helicopter pilot in 

Vietnam?

VENIRE PERSON: I was. 

MR. WESTFALL: How many tours did you do?

VENIRE PERSON: Just one right at the end. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you have traveled extensively 

in the Middle East?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: And do you know many Muslim 

people?

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

52

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And how is your relationship with 

them?

VENIRE PERSON: Well, I worked in the Middle 

East about twenty years. 

MR. WESTFALL: Where did you work?

VENIRE PERSON: United Emirates, Oman, Jordan, 

Egypt, a little bit across North Africa. 

MR. WESTFALL: What were you doing with them?

VENIRE PERSON: Working helicopter programs, 

selling helicopters. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you actually negotiated with a 

lot of Muslims?

VENIRE PERSON: Quite a number. 

MR. WESTFALL: How were your experiences with 

them?

VENIRE PERSON: I enjoyed it. I sort of grew up 

in the Middle East in terms of that's where my career took 

off in the early eighties, and I ended up working a lot in 

Iraq, and we had good relations with them for a while in 

the eighties and even Iran for a little bit. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you still keep up with any of 

the people that you worked with over there?

VENIRE PERSON: Somewhat. Our representatives 

are dealers that helped to put together some of the 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

53

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
programs. I see them almost on an annual basis. 

MR. WESTFALL: Where do you see them? Over 

there or here?

VENIRE PERSON: Mostly here. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you do over here that 

brings you in contact with them?

VENIRE PERSON: Well, I don't deal with them 

much. I have something called key accounts which is for 

the most part U.S. Government, U.S. and Canadian 

operators, some of the largest ones we have. 

MR. WESTFALL: While you were living there for 

so long, did you pick up any of the language?

VENIRE PERSON: I didn't live there. I know a 

few words, but by no means fluent. 

MR. WESTFALL: You said in your questionnaire 

that you followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict very 

closely.

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: But you didn't put any comment 

about that. Could you give us a little more information? 

What do you mean you followed them very closely? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, I read about it. Whenever 

it's in the paper. Periodicals. I read books about it. 

I enjoy politics. I enjoy history. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have an opinion as to 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

54

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
which side is right and which side a wrong?

VENIRE PERSON: I wouldn't go so far as to say 

that there is a right and wrong side overall. There is 

certain elements to both sides that have strength as 

opposed to countervailing positions. 

MR. WESTFALL: Like what? 

VENIRE PERSON: You are asking for my specific 

opinions on various issues. I think Americans -- 

America's ties to particularly the religious right in 

America and the way that has brought out support for the 

Israelis is perhaps not in our best interest. I think 

that we need to take a somewhat broader view as to what 

has happened in the Middle East, the difficulties that 

have been brought about by our support of the State of 

Israeli. 

On the other hand, I don't know that most of the 

Arab -- or not Arab but Islamic states have really covered 

themselves in glory in terms of setting up stable, viable 

governments that allowed people to flourish and do well, 

and that in itself is a major cause of discontent in the 

Islamic world. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have given this a lot of 

thought. 

VENIRE PERSON: A little bit. 

MR. WESTFALL: In a criminal trial now, of 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

55

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
course you will be -- you know the protections that apply, 

not to testify if you don't want to testify, if you are 

charged. The government has to prove its case beyond a 

reasonable doubt and the presumption of innocence. And 

the juror -- Those are the rules that we have to live by 

if we're going to be on the jury. 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: Anything about any of your 

experiences that would keep you, do you think, from making 

the government prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you think it's a fair burden 

even in a terrorism case? 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall, your time has expired. 

Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for Mr. Maddox? 

MR. WESTFALL: Good morning. My name is Jim 

Jacks. I'm an Assistant United States Attorney here in 

Dallas. I want to follow-up on some of the information 

you put in the questionnaire and also some of the 

questions that defense counsel asked you. 

Just as an aside you indicate that your wife 

works in sales. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: What type of sales work does she do? 

VENIRE PERSON: She sells business development 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

56

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
services to automobile dealerships. 

MR. JACKS: Does she work for another company or 

have her own company? 

VENIRE PERSON: She works for another company. 

MR. JACKS: And you have a daughter that is 

either graduating from high school or graduated? 

VENIRE PERSON: She graduated. She goes off to 

school this fall. 

MR. JACKS: And you still are with Bell 

Helicopter? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Involved in sales? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Is that a fair layman's description 

of what your job is? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Do you still travel quite a bit? 

VENIRE PERSON: Somewhat. Not as much as I used 

to but a fair amount. 

MR. JACKS: Does that include going through the 

Middle East? 

VENIRE PERSON: No so much the Middle East now. 

More Europe. I may have one trip planned to the Middle 

East this fall. 

MR. JACKS: In your job have you ever had to 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

57

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
receive a security clearance? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Do you still have a security 

clearance? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: You said you attended Georgetown. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Was that for your undergraduate 

degree? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Where did you receive your masters? 

VENIRE PERSON: At Wake Forest in North 

Carolina. 

MR. JACKS: How long were you in the Army, Mr. 

Maddox? 

VENIRE PERSON: Four and a half years on active 

duty, and then when I got out to go to college, I was in 

army guard for three years. 

MR. JACKS: With regard to your views and 

knowledge of the situation in the Middle East, would you 

say it's certainly above average as far as most people are 

concerned? 

VENIRE PERSON: Perhaps. 

MR. JACKS: One of the things that will happen 

is after all the evidence has been presented by both 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

58

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
sides -- and I'm sure you having been on a jury know that 

at the end of the case the court reads its instructions, 

several pages, which is essentially the law as it applies 

to the charges and that the jury is supposed to apply to 

the facts. I expect that the Judge will tell you what the 

federal statutes are as they relate to providing material 

support to a designated foreign terrorist organization. I 

also expect that as a part of those instructions or law he 

would tell the jury that even if the material support is 

in the form of so called humanitarian aid -- books, 

backpacks, food, construction materials, medical supplies, 

soccer balls, supplies for a hospital or a mosque, that 

even if it is in that form, if it is for the benefit of a 

foreign terrorist organization that's prohibited by law. 

Would you be able to follow that instruction or do you 

have any disagreement with that instruction? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. JACKS: So no, you don't have any 

disagreement and you could follow that instruction? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct. 

MR. JACKS: Defense counsel asked you to kind of 

expound on your beliefs about the Palestinian and Israeli 

conflict. You made a comment -- And if I'm misstating it, 

tell me -- that there is responsibility on both sides. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

59

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: If the government called witnesses 

who were from the State of Israel, would you be able to 

judge their testimony -- Is there anything about your 

views about the situation that would prohibit you from 

evaluating their testimony fairly and impartially? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Would you evaluate it to determine 

if it made common sense or comported with the evidence 

that was presented in the case? 

VENIRE PERSON: I could certainly do that. 

MR. JACKS: I may have made that question a 

little bit confusing, but I understand your answer. Just 

one moment, if I may. That's all I have. Thank you, your 

Honor. Thank you, sir. 

THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Maddox. You may 

rejoin the others in the hall. 

THE COURT: Good morning, Ms. Smith. Counsel 

for the parties have some questions for you. Ms. Moreno. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you, your Honor. 

Good morning. My name is Linda Moreno, and I 

represent one of the gentlemen. I'm a defense attorney. 

Do you remember filling out that questionnaire a few 

months ago? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: This is a criminal case that 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

60

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
involves accusations against an American Muslim charity, 

the Holy Land Foundation. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: Now, just saying that, have you 

heard anything about the Holy Land Foundation either on 

the radio or seen anything in TV or read anything in the 

newspapers? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, ma'am. 

MS. MORENO: Why don't you tell us what you 

heard, read or saw? 

VENIRE PERSON: What I remember is they was 

using charitable money for illegal things that they wasn't 

supposed to. 

MS. MORENO: Is that something you read, Ms. 

Smith? 

VENIRE PERSON: I heard it on the TV. 

MS. MORENO: And is that something you heard 

just in the last few days or months ago? What is your 

best recollection about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think both if I remember. You 

know several months ago and seems like I have heard 

something recently. 

MS. MORENO: And because of what you heard in 

the newspapers -- on the TV or what you read in the 

newspapers, have you already formed an opinion about what 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

61

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
might be going on in this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not for sure, you know, what you 

are asking me. 

MS. MORENO: You know, sometimes you read 

articles about cases or you hear about them on TV, and you 

come away from it thinking, you know, I think there is a 

problem there, I think these guys might be guilty or I 

think the government is all wrong. That's what I'm 

getting at. Do you have any impressions or have you 

formed any opinions based on what you have seen or heard 

thus far? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. I don't know how to 

answer that. 

MS. MORENO: Well, there is no right and no 

wrong answer. What we're trying to do is to find jurors 

who have no preconceptions or prejudices or biases. It's 

difficult to have that. We all have biases and 

prejudices, and that's okay. So we're trying to get 

honest answer here. There is nothing wrong with having 

those ideas or preconceptions. Having said that, and 

forgive me for exploring and pushing you --

VENIRE PERSON: No, that's fine. 

MS. MORENO: It's very important that we find 

this out. Have you made up your mind or do you have any 

opinions about this case so far? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

62

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: I'd say no. You know one way or 

the other. 

MS. MORENO: You think you need to know more? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. I mean, you know -- There 

is right and wrong, and you know -- but other than that I 

couldn't say. 

MS. MORENO: Now, this is a case that involves 

charges of terrorism. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MS. MORENO: The government alleges that Holy 

Land Foundation materially supported a terrorist 

organization named HAMAS. Have you ever heard of HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have heard of it. 

MS. MORENO: And the government alleges that 

this charity organization supported HAMAS by distributing 

humanitarian aid through other charities and somehow that 

benefited HAMAS. That's what they say. Now, this 

humanitarian aid was in the form of books, medicine, food, 

the rebuilding of homes. If the government at the end of 

its case does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the 

Holy Land Foundation and the gentlemen charged supported 

HAMAS, would you have a problem returning a verdict of not 

guilty? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's hard to say. 

MS. MORENO: Tell me why that's hard to say. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

63

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: I guess the way things are now, 

you know. 

MS. MORENO: Yes, ma'am. 

VENIRE PERSON: I had a daughter-in-law in the 

army and a son and just different ways. I can't say I'm 

going to find them guilty, but I'm not going to say I 

could find them not guilty. 

MS. MORENO: You mentioned your daughter-in-law 

in the army. Was she stationed in Iraq? 

? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. And I had a son-in-law 

that was in the army, too. 

MS. MORENO: Where was he? 

VENIRE PERSON: Like Bosnia and Italy and 

different places like that. 

MS. MORENO: Given your family's history and 

their fine service for our country in these places like 

Iraq, Bosnia I think you said --

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: -- does that give you some 

hesitation that you couldn't promise these gentlemen to be 

completely fair in evaluating the evidence? 

VENIRE PERSON: To a point, yes. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you for your honesty. Can 

you tell us a little bit more about that? When you say to 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

64

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
a point --

VENIRE PERSON: I can't just come and say well 

what they did was right or what they did was wrong. But 

to me, you know, it's human beings. I can't see things 

like that. I have seen too much stuff in my life to 

know -- the harm that different things can do and people 

can say I didn't do this or I did this. It's just talk, 

and I'm having a hard time up here. 

MS. MORENO: We all appreciate how difficult 

this is. Let me ask you a couple more questions on this 

issue. These gentlemen are presumed innocent. You have 

heard the presumption of innocence. Being American you 

have grown up with this. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: But that means you can't have any 

emotional reservations. You have to have no emotional 

reservations starting this case. Can you tell us that you 

can absolutely and honestly afford these gentlemen the 

presumption of innocence or would that be something you 

cannot do? 

VENIRE PERSON: At this point I could not do 

that. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you so much. Pass the juror. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Smith? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

65

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. Ms. Smith, good morning. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good morning. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks, and I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas. Thank 

you for being here, and I, too, want to ask you some 

questions regarding the answers that you have given on 

your questionnaire and to defense counsel. Let me ask you 

generally your husband -- you have listed his occupation 

as instrument technician. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Who does he work for? 

VENIRE PERSON: He retired from the City of 

Dallas Water Department. 

MR. JACKS: And where did he work? 

VENIRE PERSON: Sunnyvale in water purification. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know if he would have known 

an engineer in that office by the name of Mr. 

Constantinescu? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have no idea. 

MR. JACKS: You have never heard that name? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I'm not saying he didn't. 

I don't know. 

MR. JACKS: How long has he been retired? 

VENIRE PERSON: Five years. 

MR. JACKS: And have you worked outside the 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

66

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
home? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: What type of work did you do when 

you worked outside the home? 

VENIRE PERSON: In graphic arts, printing, 

making yearbooks. 

MR. JACKS: And how long did you do that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Seventeen years. 

MR. JACKS: And where was that? What company? 

VENIRE PERSON: Publishing in Dallas. 

MR. JACKS: Have you always lived in Kaufman for 

the most part? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fourteen years and we lived in 

Mesquite before. 

MR. JACKS: Let me back up and talk to you a 

little bit about some of the things that Ms. Moreno was 

asking you. You said you heard about this case in 

either -- on the radio or in the newspapers. Is that 

right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Anything about that that made you 

form an opinion about whether these individuals were 

guilty or not guilty. 

? 

VENIRE PERSON: I couldn't say if I found them 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

67

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
guilty, but when I heard it I thought that's not right. 

You know --

MR. JACKS: Is it fair to say that what you are 

saying is that if these people did this, that's not right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Let me make a point to you. There 

is nothing in the law that says the people that serve on 

juries have to have been living in a cave and totally cut 

off from everything around the world that goes on around 

them. Do you understand that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: The issue I believe, as it will be 

explained to you or put to you, is regardless of whatever 

you may have heard or seen can you put that aside and be a 

fair and impartial juror in this case. Listen to the 

evidence, and if the government proves the charges beyond 

a reasonable doubt find a person guilty. If the 

government does not prove the charges beyond a reasonable 

doubt, find that person not guilty. Can you do that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think so, yes. 

MR. JACKS: Well, somebody may push you and say 

you think so, but we need to know for sure. When you say 

I think so, is there anything that would prevent you from 

being a fair and impartial juror as you sit here today? 

You haven't heard any evidence today. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

68

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: No, I make my own decisions. 

MR. JACKS: And if the government does not prove 

its case beyond a reasonable doubt, can you return a 

verdict of not guilty? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Now, earlier you answered a question 

regarding the presumption of innocence. Do you believe in 

the presumption of innocence? 

VENIRE PERSON: That. 

MR. JACKS: That when a person is charged with a 

crime all they have to do is show up in court and it's -- 

the burden is on the government to prove that they are 

guilty. Do you believe in that and agree with that? 

MS. MORENO: Objection, your Honor, misstates 

the law as to what presumption of innocence is. 

THE COURT: I don't know that I agree it 

misstates the law. It's perhaps an incomplete statement 

of law. The presumption of innocence, Ms. Smith, is that 

when a person is charged with a crime he is presumed to be 

innocent unless and until the jury unanimously is 

satisfied that he has been proven guilty beyond a 

reasonable doubt. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: So with that explanation, I think 

the question Mr. Jacks wanted to pose to you is do you 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

69

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
agree with that concept and can you apply it in this case. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Even if the case is about charges 

that people are accused of providing material support to a 

terrorist group, even in that type of case, would you 

abide by the presumption of innocence and provide these 

gentlemen over here that presumption in this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: If they prove they are not 

guilty, yes. 

MR. JACKS: You understand they are not required 

to prove anything? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm saying if it's proven to 

me -- Yes, they are not guilty until they are proven to be 

guilty. That's the question you asked? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, ma'am. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: So you will look at the evidence and 

make a decision on your own based upon the evidence; is 

that what you are saying? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Even though you don't like 

terrorism -- and I don't expect anybody to come in and say 

I like terrorism. But even though you do not like the 

fact that there might have been terrorism committed or 

support for terrorism, you do not approve of that type of 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

70

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
conduct. Is that what you are saying? 

VENIRE PERSON: See, I'm confused now. 

MR. JACKS: I'm sorry. 

VENIRE PERSON: They are innocent until they are 

proven. I do not say, well, they are a terrorist. I'm 

not going to say well they are terrorists. 

MR. JACKS: You are not going to prejudge them? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Well, okay. And even though the 

charges in this case as opposed to being a robbery charge 

or an income tax evasion charge, the fact that this charge 

involves providing material support to terrorism, will you 

still give that presumption of innocence to the defendants 

and make the government prove its case beyond a reasonable 

doubt? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, your time has expired. 

Thank you, Ms. Smith. You may rejoin the others 

in the hall.

MS. MORENO: If I may, your Honor. At this 

point, we would enter a cause challenge against Ms. Smith. 

What she said was -- I think clearly when I was 

questioning her -- although it was difficult for her to 

admit to it that she could not afford the presumption of 

innocence. And she gave reasons why. Her family members 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

71

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
apparently were in Bosnia and Iraq, and this would be very 

difficult for her, and when Mr. Jacks tried to 

rehabilitate her, the juror clearly showed confusion about 

what she understood the presumption of innocence to be, 

and then she added another burden on the defense which was 

that the defense had to prove themselves not guilty. I 

think the defense would ask the Court to err on the side 

of caution, if at all, and excuse this juror for cause. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you oppose that 

challenge? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I think she indicated 

that she would be fair and impartial and that she had not 

made up her mind. Part of her I think confusion was by 

the way the questions were put to her, and we don't 

believe that she has shown herself -- that she should be 

excused for cause. 

THE COURT: I will take this one under 

advisement, as I did the earlier one for Ms. Pritchard. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, would it be possible 

for the jurors to sit on the back row? We can't see them. 

THE COURT: We will try that. That may create a 

problem for the ones that are soft spoken, but we'll try 

it.

MS. HOLLANDER: Thank you. 

THE COURT: I think we're ready to see Ms. Pena 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

72

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
next. Good morning, Ms. Pena. Counsel for the parties 

have some questions for you. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Yes, your Honor, thank you. Ms. 

Pena, how are you doing? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fine, how are you? 

MR. WESTFALL: My name is Greg Westfall, and I'm 

a criminal defense lawyer, and I'm one of the lawyers on 

this criminal case which is the United States versus Holy 

Land Foundation. This is a case that is -- involves 

allegations by the government that the Holy Land 

Foundation which is a Muslim charity was giving material 

support to a foreign terrorist organization, specifically 

HAMAS. Hearing that, does that ring any bells with you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, I probably only heard that 

it was starting today, the jury for that. That's it. 

MR. WESTFALL: Where do you think you heard 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I heard it on the radio this 

morning when I was coming into the train. 

MR. WESTFALL: To the train station? 

? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, my husband's radio that was 

on going to the train station I heard the jury would start 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

73

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
today. That's all I heard. 

MR. WESTFALL: What station do you listen to? 

VENIRE PERSON: Like a classic rock station. 

MR. WESTFALL: When you heard it did you think, 

oh, that's the case I'm going to? 

VENIRE PERSON: They said four- to five-month 

duration for the Court to start and begin. That's why I 

put it together. 

MR. WESTFALL: Right. Well, you know on that 

four- or five-month deal, you had expressed in your 

questionnaire that you have issues with migraine 

headaches. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: And I guess also asthma? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you are taking certain 

medication? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: And your jury service may be 

difficult because of that. Could you please tell us --

VENIRE PERSON: You want me to elaborate on 

that? 

MR. WESTFALL: Yes, because if your jury service 

is difficult, that's something we definitely need to talk 

about. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

74

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: I personally don't think it 

would affect it, but I didn't want it to be out there. I 

know I had to disclose everything, but regarding my 

migraine headache I take Ibuprofen, and I'm fine, and I do 

have something for the asthma which is a preventative, but 

I wanted to have it out because I thought everything had 

to be disclosed. 

MR. WESTFALL: And it won't cause you any 

problems? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, that's all we need to talk 

about. Let's talk about the charges. Based upon what you 

have heard in the news, which it doesn't sound like much, 

but I need to ask you --

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: -- have you formed any opinions 

as to whether the defendants are guilty or not? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir, what I heard was very 

brief and because I was kind of concerned about getting on 

the bus. I just wanted to let you know that's what I 

heard. And I was more concerned about getting on the bus 

and getting over here. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: I work at a school district, and 

I work with a lot of multicultural families as a clerk and 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

75

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
with the RISD program, but I have never asked about their 

religious background because it's only for the children. 

I don't make it an issue because I try to be fair with 

everyone. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you have not been aware of any 

dealings with other teachers or have you ever had any good 

experiences with people who are Arab or Muslim or bad 

experiences? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not good or bad. From what I 

have seen there are times that there are fasting, and when 

you work in a school you try to work with everyone and 

kind of be aware -- being indifferent to everyone's 

religions and trying to treat everybody fair. So I try 

not to make it an issue and try to be kind with everyone. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you teach with the RISD. 

VENIRE PERSON: I work as an aid, a translator. 

I work in the office as a clerk, and I work in a lot of 

different areas of the school. 

MR. WESTFALL: In a criminal case, it doesn't 

look like you have been on a jury before. 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: In a criminal case, there are 

protections that are given to people charged with crimes. 

One of those is the right not to testify unless you want 

to. Have you heard that? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

76

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: And another one is that the 

government bears the burden of proof, and the government 

is the only one that bears the burden of proof, and that 

burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. They have 

to prove their allegations beyond a reasonable doubt. And 

another important one is a presumption of innocence. That 

means as a person sits here before the trial begins and 

all the way until the verdict is rendered, that person is 

presumed to be innocent. That's a very important 

Constitutional protection. A person is presumed to be 

innocent. As we sit here today, anyone is innocent until 

the government proves them guilty beyond a reasonable 

doubt. This is a terrorism case. It's not a terrorism 

case as such, but it's material support of terrorism, and 

when I say terrorism, I mean terrorism is in the title 

somewhere. The allegation is that the Holy Land 

Foundation and these employees that are sitting here gave 

material support to HAMAS. Can you abide -- Can you 

presume them innocent as we sit here right now? 

VENIRE PERSON: Oh, yes, sir. Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And if at the end of the day, at 

the end of the trial, some months from now all that's been 

shown to you is that they sent humanitarian aid over to 

Palestine, but it has not been proven to you beyond a 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

77

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
reasonable doubt that they did so with the intent to help 

this HAMAS, can you render a verdict of not guilty? 

VENIRE PERSON: Oh, yes, clearly. Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you so much. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Pena? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. Good morning, Ms. Pena. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good morning. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks, and I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas. I'm one 

of the prosecutors on this case. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: You work for the Richardson School 

District? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: And do you work at a particular 

campus? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I work at O'Henry 

Elementary. 

MR. JACKS: And your husband, you have shown his 

occupation as electrical tech. Is that a technician? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. At DRS. 

MR. JACKS: What company is that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Dallas base, it's where the TI, 

that Sherman Street is, right there. They do contracts. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

78

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
He doesn't do contracts. He does more hands-on with the 

technology. 

MR. JACKS: What kind of a product is it that he 

works with? 

VENIRE PERSON: Infrared, night vision, goggles. 

MR. JACKS: Does he have a security clearance? 

VENIRE PERSON: He may have. I know he had one 

previously. I don't know if he has had it updated, but he 

has had one previously. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know what DRS stands for? 

VENIRE PERSON: Something to the effect of --

MR. JACKS: That's okay. There is lots of 

acronyms that I hear, but I don't know what they mean. 

How long has he worked there? 

VENIRE PERSON: Two years. 

MR. JACKS: Before that, where did he work? 

VENIRE PERSON: Steakley Chevrolet. 

MR. JACKS: What job did he have there? 

VENIRE PERSON: Car salesman. He had been laid 

off from Raytheon. 

MR. JACKS: How long did he work at Raytheon? 

VENIRE PERSON: I would say ten years. For sure 

he had a security clearance there. 

MR. JACKS: Does he have a college degree? 

VENIRE PERSON: An associate related to 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

79

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
mechanical. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. You have told us that you 

heard the news reports on the radio about this case. Is 

that the extent of what you have heard about this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: I heard it on the radio. 

Broadcasting on a small portion of it. 

MR. JACKS: One of the procedures -- As Mr. 

Westfall, the gentlemen that spoke to you a second ago 

told you, this case is a case in which the United States 

has charged the Holy Land Foundation and certain of its 

representatives or employees with providing material 

support to a foreign terrorist organization, specifically 

HAMAS. Have you ever heard of HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: I probably have heard very 

little. But I don't know anything about it. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. After everyone -- both sides 

have had an opportunity to present their evidence and to 

present any witnesses or documents that they care to 

present, the Judge will read his instructions to the jury, 

and essentially those instructions will be him telling the 

jury what the law is that applies to this case, what is 

the law in the United States regarding providing material 

support to a terrorist organization. What is meant by a 

terrorist organization, he would give you that definition. 

What is meant by material support, he would define that 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

80

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
term for the jury. And I expect and anticipate that one 

of the instructions that he would tell you if you are 

selected to serve on this jury is that even if the 

material support -- even if what is given over to this 

terrorist organization is in the form of so called 

humanitarian aid, even if what the individuals are charged 

with giving is food, clothing, medical supplies, school 

supplies, backpacks, books, even if it is in that nature, 

that it's still against the law to give that type of 

material for the benefit of a foreign terrorist 

organization. First of all, do you understand that 

concept? And secondly, do you have any problem with that 

provision in the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't have any problem, and I 

understand the concept. The way you described it right 

now, humanitarian aid is basically like sending foods or 

things that people use daily? 

MR. JACKS: Right. 

VENIRE PERSON: I understand. 

MR. JACKS: And even if it's that, it's still 

illegal if it's been given knowingly to a terrorist 

organization. 

VENIRE PERSON: I understand. 

MR. JACKS: And you could follow that if the 

Judge included that in the instruction? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

81

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: I do. I understand it. 

MR. JACKS: How long have you worked for the 

Richard School District? 

VENIRE PERSON: This will be my eleventh year. 

MR. JACKS: And it appears you have some 

background in health care or graphics. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I worked in a hospital 

previously, about twenty years ago as an aid and in a 

geriatric setting, and then I also worked in a print shop 

with graphics. I have a certification for that. 

MR. JACKS: Was that here in the Dallas area? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. In South Texas in the 

Brownsville area. 

MR. JACKS: And the hospital was that in South 

Texas as well? 

VENIRE PERSON: Harlingen. 

MR. JACKS: Nothing further, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Pena. You may rejoin 

the others in the hall. Ms. Bobbitt. 

MS. MORENO: Good morning. My name is Linda 

Moreno. I'm one of the defense lawyers in this case. I 

am going to ask you some questions about the charges in 

this case and the questionnaire you filled out all of 

those months ago? 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

82

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MS. MORENO: On that questionnaire, you were 

asked about media, and you answered that you watched CNN 

with your husband? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: This is the case that involves the 

Holy Land charity. This is an American Muslim charity. I 

want to know if you have heard anything about it in the 

last few days or read or heard anything about it in the 

recent past? 

VENIRE PERSON: In the last few days before I 

went to bed they said they would be screening for jurors. 

Holy Land Foundation?

MS. MORENO: Yes, ma'am.

VENIRE PERSON: Seems like it was a few years 

back that it all came back. I just remember something 

about an organization in Richardson. I don't know a lot 

of detail. I just know it's connected with something, 

terrorists or something like that. 

MS. MORENO: And what you heard in the last few 

days about the screening of jurors?

VENIRE PERSON: The only thing I saw was on the 

screen. It said Monday would start the jury selection. 

MS. MORENO: Did you know you would be one of 

the lucky jurors?

VENIRE PERSON: I had a feeling possibly. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

83

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MS. MORENO: And after understanding this was a 

case that had some terrorism-related charges, did you have 

any hesitation or apprehension?

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. 

MS. MORENO: About sitting as a juror?

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MS. MORENO: We'll talk more about that in a 

moment. So just to be clear, is there anything about what 

you have read or heard at this point that causes you any 

concern about sitting as a juror?

VENIRE PERSON: My only concern would be that I 

fully understood everything that went on, every angle or 

detail about the issue. Yeah, because a lot of times you 

hear about things like this, but you don't know the 

details. You just know the minor highlights. 

MS. MORENO: You mean from the news reports?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And those minor highlights that you 

have heard, is there anything about that that causes you 

any apprehension or concern right now as you sit there?

VENIRE PERSON: My only concern is that I fully 

understood what was going on. 

MS. MORENO: When you say you fully understood 

what was going on, what do you mean by that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, you hear about things 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

84

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
happening in the other parts of the world, and I'm not 

sure anybody really understands the whole detail of it, 

why, when, where, kind of that, just educational wise. 

MS. MORENO: This is a case where the government 

alleges that the Holy Land Foundation which is an American 

Muslim charity supported the foreign terrorist 

organization HAMAS. Have you heard about HAMAS?

VENIRE PERSON: I have heard the word "HAMAS." 

I don't know that much about it.

MS. MORENO: The government alleges that the -- 

in the distribution of humanitarian aid that this charity 

distributed, food, medicine, books, clothing, libraries, 

helped assist in the rebuilding of homes that were 

destroyed and demolished. That's the humanitarian aid 

that we're talking about. The government alleges that aid 

that the Holy Land Foundation distributed in Palestine and 

the West Bank and Gaza and other places that that 

benefited this terrorist organization, HAMAS. 

VENIRE PERSON: I understand that. 

MS. MORENO: Knowing those charges, do you have 

any opinions about that? Any concerns or any ideas just 

knowing what the allegations are?

VENIRE PERSON: No, not really. 

MS. MORENO: In a criminal case the defendants 

are afforded the presumption of innocence. You know what 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

85

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
the presumption of innocence is, correct?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And the government has the burden 

of proof, and they must prove beyond every reasonable 

doubt the charges that are alleged. Do you have any 

thoughts about the burden of proof or the presumption of 

innocence?

VENIRE PERSON: Well, I'm a person that's real 

detailed. I would want to know every angle, every "i" 

dotted, every "t" crossed, everything about it.

MS. MORENO: In fact, on your questionnaire, if 

I remember, you were asked something about if a person 

decides not to testify on their own behalf, would you hold 

that against them? 

VENIRE PERSON: Personally I would like to hear 

them explain their side of it. 

MS. MORENO: Let's say that one of these 

gentlemen decided not to take the stand -- all or one of 

them -- is that something you would think to yourself they 

must be hiding something?

VENIRE PERSON: I wouldn't think they were 

hiding something, but I really would like to hear everyone 

so that I could get a better opinion of the situation. 

MS. MORENO: And if you didn't hear someone 

testify on their own behalf, would you hold that against 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

86

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
them? Would you say they should be telling their side of 

the story? And I want to say to you there are no right or 

wrong answers here. We're just looking. This is a search 

for the truth by both sides, and we're trying to find 

those jurors who could be fair and impartial in this kind 

of a case. So knowing that, would you hold that against 

someone?

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I believe she has 

answered that question already. It was put to her 

earlier, and I believe she answered. 

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, I guess a lot of times it 

depends on the overall jury -- I mean the overall scenario 

whether you want to hear from that person or not. 

MS. MORENO: Do you understand in a criminal 

case that the defendants don't have to testify? 

VENIRE PERSON: I know they don't. 

MS. MORENO: But are you the kind of person that 

would want them to?

VENIRE PERSON: I pretty much like to hear all 

the opinions. I like to know every detail. 

MS. MORENO: And if they didn't take the stand, 

is that something -- 

VENIRE PERSON: It depends on the overall 

testimony of everyone else. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

87

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MS. MORENO: But you can't sit here and tell 

us --

VENIRE PERSON: I can't say that I absolutely 

have to hear them testify. I would like to hear them 

testify. 

MS. MORENO: In a case that involves charges of 

terrorism like this case, do you think that the burden of 

proof that the government has should be lessened somehow 

because these charges are so serious? They should have 

less of a burden of proof?

VENIRE PERSON: I don't think so. 

THE COURT: Ms. Moreno, your time has expired. 

Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for Ms. Bobbitt?

MR. JACKS: Good morning, Ms. Bobbitt. My name 

is Jim Jacks. I'm an Assistant United States Attorney 

here in Dallas, and I'm one of the prosecutors in this 

case. I also have some just brief follow-up questions. 

As I understand it from your questionnaire, you 

are presently retired, and before you retired you worked 

for a personnel service.

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, mortgage personnel.

MR. JACKS: All right. And you were a branch 

manager; is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes.

MR. JACKS: The only information we have 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

88

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
regarding your husband is that he is a project manager. 

Do you mind telling us who he works for generally?

VENIRE PERSON: He's retired also now.

MR. JACKS: How long has he been retired?

VENIRE PERSON: Gosh. Five years.

MR. JACKS: And before he retired, who did he 

work for?

VENIRE PERSON: I want to say it was called -- 

He worked there about a year and a half. Gosh. I don't 

know. I can't remember.

MR. JACKS: What type of a business or industry 

was it?

VENIRE PERSON: Well, see, my husband has always 

worked with a union usually, different jobs at different 

locations, and this was a job that he got. He was taking 

college courses, and they needed a project manager for 

like a year, year and a half.

MR. JACKS: Is it construction?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, construction. 

MR. JACKS: Commercial construction?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes.

MR. JACKS: And before the last company that he 

worked for before he retired, did he work for other 

companies in that field?

VENIRE PERSON: Well, belonging to the union, he 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

89

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
worked for various companies. Okay.

MR. JACKS: And what union was he a member of? 

VENIRE PERSON: Metal Lathe Workers Union.

MR. JACKS: Okay. And you have told us that you 

have minimal knowledge of this case from the newspapers or 

television. 

VENIRE PERSON: TV. 

MR. JACKS: And I gather from your answers that 

you want to hear as much evidence as there is to help you 

make your decision. Is that a fair summary? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, before -- Being in 

personnel, I worked in mortgage and banking, and you 

usually have to know everything about every little thing, 

and so probably from my background I would like that. 

MR. JACKS: And I gather you are telling us you 

haven't made up your mind, and that's what you are here 

for if you are selected to serve on this jury, is to 

listen to the evidence and render a fair decision. Is 

that a fair statement? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, I haven't heard enough 

about the situation. 

MR. JACKS: I understand. Now, regarding the 

right of a defendant not to testify, that's something that 

is in the Constitution, and I gather or I assume that your 

answer was that you understand that and you accept that. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

90

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Is that a fair statement? 

VENIRE PERSON: I accept that, but I usually 

like to hear their opinion. 

MR. JACKS: All right. If the Judge tells you 

in the instructions that if any defendant chooses not to 

testify for whatever reason, that that's something that 

you as a juror cannot hold against him -- if he tells you 

that as part of the law, can you follow that instruction? 

VENIRE PERSON: I will have to abide by that if 

the Judge tells me that. 

MR. JACKS: I expect that he would tell you 

that. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: So can you follow that instruction 

and abide by it? 

VENIRE PERSON: I can follow the instructions. 

MR. JACKS: Let me also touch on another point. 

As defense counsel told you, the central charges in this 

case -- I guess if you were to try to describe them in a 

sentence or two is that the United States government has 

charged the Holy Land Foundation and certain individuals 

that worked with that organization with conspiring to and 

actually providing material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization, and it's alleged that foreign terrorist 

organization was HAMAS, and I believe you said you had 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

91

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
heard of HAMAS. Is that right? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have. 

MR. JACKS: Have you ever served on a jury 

before? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: After both sides have presented 

their evidence and before they give their final summations 

or arguments, the Judge will read to you what's sometimes 

called the Court's charge or the jury instructions, and 

it's a multi-page document which you will be given a copy 

of after he reads it, but it basically contains the law 

that applies to the case, and the jury is instructed that 

you take this law and you apply it to the facts, and 

that's what you use to try to render a verdict, and he 

would include definitions in there so that you know what 

is meant by a foreign terrorist organization and that type 

of thing. I expect that one of the instructions or 

explanations of law that the Judge will give is that even 

if the aid -- the material support -- that is given by the 

defendants for the benefit of a foreign terrorist 

organization -- even if it's in the form of so called 

humanitarian aid -- food, clothing, medical supplies, 

school books, backpacks, that type of thing -- even if 

it's that type of material that it is still against United 

States law to do that. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

92

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Do you understand that idea? And can you follow 

that instruction if the Judge tells you that is part of 

the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. I understand that. 

MR. JACKS: I believe that's all I have, your 

Honor. 

THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Bobbitt. You may 

rejoin the others in the hall. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, may we approach the 

bench on a general housekeeping matter? 

THE COURT: All right.

MR. JACKS: Judge, we would ask if the Court 

would when these people are finished instruct them that 

they are not to listen to any media reports, just to keep 

them from doing any of that and maybe not speak to the 

other jurors as well when they go back to the juryroom. 

THE COURT: Good morning.

MR. WESTFALL: Good morning, Mr. Mosty. I'm 

Greg Westfall. I'm one of the defense lawyers in this 

case. I see you are from Richardson. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: This case is about Holy Land 

Foundation for Relief and Development which used to be in 

Richardson. Does this ring any bells with you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Oh, yeah. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

93

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: And can you tell me what you have 

heard about the case? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's been a few years ago. So I 

don't remember much of the stuff about it, but it was the 

fact that they thought that they were sending money to 

HAMAS or radicals and rather than going to where they said 

it was supposed to be going. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you know about HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't want to know anything 

about them. 

MR. WESTFALL: Don't want to know anything more 

than you have to know? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's right. I know they are 

somebody that I don't want to mess with. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know where they are 

supposed to be? 

VENIRE PERSON: Middle East, mainly Jordan, West 

Bank I think and then some of the other Arab countries 

there. I think they are pretty well all throughout the 

area. 

MR. WESTFALL: At various times the media has 

been pretty heavy on this story. 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: And recently, of course, because 

the trial is getting ready to start there is a resurgence. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

94

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Kind of give me your opinion of the situation based on 

what you have read, you know, on the case, whether they 

are good for it, whether they are not good for it. What's 

your overall opinion? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know for sure, but that 

would be something that I would just have to listen to the 

information and find out, you know, whether -- I feel like 

I could give a good -- I'm not biased either way. The 

only problem I have is that being if we were convicted -- 

I did find them guilty, I think somewhere down the line 

there would be some retribution to people that put them 

away. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you are personally afraid? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. I think something is going 

to happen. Found them not guilty, I doubt that anything 

would ever happen. But if I come to the conclusion that 

they are a part of that group, I don't put anything past 

that group. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you discussed this anxiety 

you have with your wife? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: You said in your questionnaire 

that you look at the Palestinian-Israeli conflict closely, 

but you didn't put any explanation. What did you mean by 

that? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

95

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: News. I do quite a bit of 

watching of, like, the History Channel and stuff like that 

where there have been documentaries on the different 

things that happen in the Middle East -- Six Day War, 

etcetera -- and kind of follow what's going on in Iraq, 

and in the past the deal here with the West Bank and Gaza, 

you know, I followed that. I don't know the names that 

good. But I know what's going on. 

MR. WESTFALL: And do you have a sense on who's 

right and who is wrong in the Palestinian-Israeli 

conflict? 

VENIRE PERSON: Two goats butting heads. You 

know, it's just something that is probably going to keep 

on going for years and years and maybe more centuries. 

It's too many different ideas of the way they want to do 

things, and some groups are, you know -- They are too 

wrapped up in what they are doing, and I'm sure they 

believe that what they are doing is right. But it doesn't 

follow with what I think. 

MR. WESTFALL: You know -- You have a good sense 

for what the issues are, and you have told us how you fear 

the retribution which you are not alone in that. I want 

to know how that might affect you being on the jury. Is 

this something that's very real with you? You have spoken 

with your wife. Is this the kind of thing that would 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

96

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
affect your jury service? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think I could still do the -- 

weigh the issue and do what I think is right. But if it 

came out that they were guilty, I think something is going 

to happen. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, I'll put the question out 

there. The way a trial is supposed to go is the decision 

on whether somebody is guilty or not guilty is supposed to 

be based only on what's in court, but it sounds like, you 

know, you have this other issue going on. Will that 

impair you in any way no matter how slight on your ability 

to render a fair and impartial decision just based on the 

evidence? 

VENIRE PERSON: Maybe just a little bit. Might 

have a ten percent that I'd hate to be in that situation. 

MR. WESTFALL: So if the choices are just yes 

and no, then yes is probably the answer on that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Mosty. Thank you so much. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Mr. Mosty? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. Good morning, Mr. Mosty. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good morning. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks. I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas. I'm one 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

97

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
of the prosecutors on this case. I would like to ask you 

a few follow-up questions if I could. You indicated that 

you have followed the situation between the Israelis and 

the Palestinians somewhat closely in your questionnaire. 

The next question in that questionnaire was have you 

formed any opinion or belief about the nature of that 

conflict that would prevent you from serving as a fair and 

impartial juror in this case and you checked no. 

VENIRE PERSON: (Witness nods)

MR. JACKS: That is correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Do you still believe that to be 

true? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Have you ever served on a federal 

jury before? Answer out so the court reporter can write 

down your answer. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: You shook your head no. Is that 

correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: It was no. 

MR. JACKS: Have you served on a state jury 

before at the county courthouse? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: I take it you are not aware in the 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

98

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
federal criminal case the jury does not assess punishment. 

That's done by the judge later on. 

VENIRE PERSON: I did not know that. 

MR. JACKS: With regard to your answer that you 

felt like that if the case was proven and a guilty verdict 

was returned that there would be some retaliation or 

reaction down the road --

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: -- is that something -- When you 

said that, did you mean against the people on the jury or 

just generally? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I think it would be on the 

jury or their families. 

MR. JACKS: Would that affect your ability to 

serve on the jury in this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: I told him. That might be ten 

percent of it. 

MR. JACKS: Well, if you thought something might 

happen to you, depending on what your verdict was, 

apparently that might cause your verdict to go one way or 

the other. Is that what you are saying? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Dispute whatever the evidence might 

be in the case? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

99

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: So even if the government proved its 

case beyond a reasonable doubt, you might return a not 

guilty verdict because you would be concerned about your 

safety later on? 

VENIRE PERSON: There would be a possibility of 

that. 

MR. JACKS: What about the flip side of that? 

If the government didn't meet its burden in your mind and 

didn't prove the defendant's guilty, are you saying that 

you would find them guilty even though you didn't think 

they had been proven guilty? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: So by your answer is it the 

government that may suffer if you are selected to serve on 

this jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Let me just cover some of the things 

that were in the questionnaire and I think you answered 

them. You will follow the Court's instructions regarding 

if a defendant chooses not to testify and the court says 

you cannot hold that against them. Can you follow that 

instruction if the judge tells you that's the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes.

MR. JACKS: If the Judge tells you that the 

government's burden is beyond a reasonable doubt will you 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

100

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
hold the government to that burden? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, sir. 

THE COURT: Mr. Mosty, you are currently a 

member of the pool from which this jury will be selected. 

We have a ways to go before we know who's on the jury and 

who's not. So in the meantime I am going to direct that 

you not watch or read or listen to any media accounts of 

this case, if there are any, and that you not have any 

conversation about the case with any of the other members 

of the jury panel. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: Ladies and Gentlemen, because of the 

hour I would like to take our luncheon recess at this 

time. I want to be in recess for an hour for lunch. 

We're making I guess reasonable progress, but we still 

have a long way to go, as I told Mr. Mosty just now, and 

also I wanted to let counsel and the parties know that two 

of the persons on our list were no-shows today. That's 

Number 3, Mr. Fletcher, and Number 28, Medina. 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, may I interpose a 

challenge for cause on Mr. Mosty? 

THE COURT: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Fear of retribution would affect 

his verdict. I think it's clear. He stuck to it under 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

101

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Mr. Jacks's questioning. I think that he's clearly 

challengeable, your Honor. We submit him. 

THE COURT: What do you say, Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Well, it sounds like it would be to 

the detriment of the government as opposed to the defense. 

So I believe they have shown that he should be challenged 

for cause. 

THE COURT: I'm not quite sure I follow the 

logic there, but I am going to grant the challenge to 

excuse Mr. Mosty for cause. We'll be in recess for lunch 

until 1:00. 

(Recess)

THE COURT: Good afternoon, Mr. Perry. 

Counsel for the parties have some questions for you. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. 

Mr. Perry, how are you doing? 

VENIRE PERSON: Good, thank you. 

MR. WESTFALL: I'm Greg Westfall, one of the 

defense lawyers in this case. We're a long away from each 

other and you don't have a microphone. Would you please 

speak up and speak a little louder? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have a low voice. 

MR. WESTFALL: Okay. You work at Frye's right 

now? 

VENIRE PERSON: I did. I actually quit not too 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

102

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
long ago. 

MR. WESTFALL: So are you --

VENIRE PERSON: Unemployed. 

MR. WESTFALL: Looking for a job? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: This case involves a Muslim 

charity called the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and 

Development, and the allegations are that the Holy Land 

Foundation gave material support to a terrorist 

organization, a foreign terrorist organization called 

HAMAS. Does that ring any bells? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: You never heard of the case at 

all? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have never heard of the case 

since you filled out this questionnaire? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Where do you live in Dallas, not 

an address but an area? 

VENIRE PERSON: White Rock Lake. 

MR. WESTFALL: So in the Dallas area? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

103

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Have you ever met any? 

VENIRE PERSON: I used to work with one at 

Frye's, a year back, year and a half ago. 

MR. WESTFALL: What was your relationship with 

that person, good or bad? 

VENIRE PERSON: Good. 

MR. WESTFALL: Tell me about the person. 

VENIRE PERSON: He was a salesman. He was 

motivated. He was Muslim, but he didn't have the 

stereotypical attributes you would say. Very 

Americanized. 

MR. WESTFALL: What are the stereotypical 

American attributes? 

VENIRE PERSON: No beard, no turban or anything 

like that. Well spoken. 

MR. WESTFALL: Where was he from? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know specifically. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you know about HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not very much. I don't pay much 

attention to the television or media. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you get your news over the 

media? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not too much. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know where HAMAS operates? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

104

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: This case involves allegations of 

terrorism, not terroristic acts per se but giving money or 

blankets or whatever. That's the essential charge here. 

How do you feel about being on a jury deciding a case with 

those sorts of issues? 

VENIRE PERSON: Although I'm not comfortable 

right now because it's the first time I have done 

something like this. I assume I would be fair because I 

don't know anything. I haven't read the media or anything 

like that. I assume I would be impartial. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have never been on a jury I 

guess? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: You probably know about some of 

the protections that are afforded to a person that's 

charged with a crime in the United States. One of them is 

they don't have to testify if they don't want to. How do 

you feel about somebody testifying in their own criminal 

trial? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's their choice. 

MR. WESTFALL: You wouldn't hold that against 

them? 

VENIRE PERSON: They may feel that their 

testifying may hurt their case. They are welcome not to 

do it. Some people aren't good with words. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

105

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Another protection is the 

presumption of innocence. Somebody is presumed innocent. 

You have heard that phrase? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: Somebody is presumed innocent. 

If they are charged with an offense they are presumed 

innocent unless and until the government proves its case 

beyond any reasonable doubt. So that means anybody 

sitting in trial is presumed innocent. Can you presume 

all the defendants are innocent? Is that a yes? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's a yes until I hear the 

evidence in the case.

MR. WESTFALL: You have some family in law 

enforcement, police officers? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Was your grandfather the last one 

that was a police officer in your family line? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Police officers you know often 

testify in trial. How do you feel about a police officer 

testifying versus just a regular witness testifying? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm not sure.

MR. WESTFALL: Well, let me be more clear. What 

the law presumes is that you will give the same 

consideration to a non police officer as you would to a 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

106

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
police officer. 

VENIRE PERSON: I see.

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have any problem with 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: I know you are currently 

unemployed. Anything about being in a jury for four 

months that would make it difficult for you to serve? 

VENIRE PERSON: It would keep me from finding a 

job. 

MR. WESTFALL: Is that a difficulty that would 

weigh on your mind while you are trying to do this 

service? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: The kind of difficulty that could 

distract you from this service? 

VENIRE PERSON: It might. 

MR. WESTFALL: If you had to answer yes or no, 

would it be yes? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Perry, thank you very much. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Mr. Perry? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor. Good afternoon, 

Mr. Perry. My name is Jim Jacks. I'm an Assistant United 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

107

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
States Attorney here in Dallas. I'm one of the 

prosecutors on this case. I have some questions that I 

want to ask you very briefly, if you don't mind. 

VENIRE PERSON: Go right ahead.

MR. JACKS: How long has it been since you left 

your job at Frye Electronics? 

VENIRE PERSON: About two weeks. Two or three 

weeks I believe. 

MR. JACKS: I'm not sure when -- It looks like 

you filled out this questionnaire on June 27th. So from 

the date you filled out the questionnaire about how long? 

VENIRE PERSON: I was still employed with 

Frye's. But I was considering leaving. I probably left a 

few days after. 

MR. JACKS: All right. What other kind of work 

have you done in your life? 

VENIRE PERSON: Frye's was my first job. 

MR. JACKS: At the present time do you live with 

your parents? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I moved out. 

MR. JACKS: Do you have a roommate or live by 

yourself. 

MR. JACKS: I have an occupant. He's not on the 

lease. 

MR. JACKS: Where did you go to school? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

108

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: I went to Bryan Adams, and I 

dropped out, and then I went to home school but based in 

Florida. 

MR. JACKS: It was based in Florida? 

VENIRE PERSON: I would send my curriculum 

through the mail. 

MR. JACKS: So you were at your home in Dallas 

and completed your requirements on line? 

VENIRE PERSON: Correct. 

MR. JACKS: Do you have brothers and sisters? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I do. 

MR. JACKS: Are they in the Dallas area? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Is there a particular field or area 

that you are looking in as far as your employment? Do you 

have a specialty that you focus in? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not necessarily. I was thinking 

of taking classes up at a college. I haven't decided 

which one yet. I might specialize in psychology. I don't 

know if I want to go in education or not. Maybe a 

teacher. 

MR. JACKS: I believe you indicated on your 

questionnaire that you have previously lived in Oklahoma 

and Wyoming. Did you move here to the Dallas area with 

your family? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

109

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And I suppose if I do the math, that 

would have been when you were about seven years old? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, and a little bit younger 

when I was in Wyoming. 

MR. JACKS: You indicated that you are really 

not a person that watches the news or do you read the 

newspapers? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. 

MR. JACKS: I understand what you said about you 

are in the process of looking for work. You understand 

that you will be compensated for your service as a juror. 

Would that make any difference or assist you in your 

financial situation? 

VENIRE PERSON: It would. 

MR. JACKS: I guess the question that may go to 

the heart of it, if you are selected to serve on this jury 

would you be able to give your full attention to it while 

you were in the juryroom and listen to the evidence and 

make decisions whenever the case is turned over to the 

jury. Could you do that? 

VENIRE PERSON: With a clear mind, yes.

MR. JACKS: I think you told defense counsel 

that you were not familiar with the organization known as 

HAMAS. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

110

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Have you ever heard of it? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: I take it then that you have not 

really followed the situation in the Middle East in terms 

of the Israelis and Palestinians? 

VENIRE PERSON: Whatever I have heard from 

people is hearsay. I don't really watch TV or read the 

newspaper. 

MR. JACKS: At the close of the case when both 

sides have presented all the evidence they intend to 

present, the Judge will give the jury its instructions 

which he would read to the jury, and it will be a written 

document which after he reads it the jury gets to keep a 

copy of it to refer to, but essentially it would be his 

telling the jury what the law is as it applies to this 

case. He would give you definitions. He would tell the 

jury what is meant by the term "foreign terrorist 

organization" and things such as that. He would read to 

the jury the United States law as far as it pertains to 

providing material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization. I expect that among those instructions and 

those descriptions of the law will be a description that 

says even if the funds that are used or given over to the 

foreign terrorist organization are used for humanitarian 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

111

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
purposes -- even if that money is spent buying food or 

books or medical supplies, educational supplies -- even if 

that is how the money is spent that it's still against the 

law to provide that money to a foreign terrorist 

organization. Do you have any feeling about that 

particular provision of law? And if so, do you feel like 

you could follow that instruction if the Judge told you 

that was the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, your time has expired. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, your Honor. Thank you, 

sir. 

THE COURT: Mr. Perry, you are a part of a pool 

from which this jury will be selected. We're still in the 

process of interviewing prospective jurors, and so until 

you hear further from us so that you know whether you are 

on the jury or not, you should not discuss this case with 

anyone or read or watch or listen to any media accounts of 

it. Thank you. You may rejoin the others in the hall.

MR. JACKS: Just for clarification, do the 

jurors leave the courthouse after they finished here? 

THE COURT: That's what the jury administrator 

has been doing this morning. I had a conference with the 

jury clerk to see if we could get those jurors up here to 

give the instruction you requested, and I was told they 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

112

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
had already left the courthouse. 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I believe that 

hardships are purely within the discretion of the Court. 

So as opposed to a challenge for cause, the Court is 

alerted to a possible hardship. This guy, I can still see 

him in Month Number 2. 

THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Kiblinger, I think 

we're ready to see our next potential juror, Ms. 

Lopez-Rogina. 

Good afternoon. Counsel for the parties have 

some questions for you. Ms. Moreno. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you, your Honor. Is it 

Shawn Lopez-Rogina? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, it is. 

MS. MORENO: My name is Linda Moreno, and I 

represent one of the gentlemen in the Holy Land case. I 

am going to ask you some questions that came out of that 

questionnaire that you filled out so many months ago. Do 

you remember that questionnaire? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: One of the things we need to 

discuss is whether you have heard or read anything that 

deals with this particular case. This is a case that 

involves the Holy Land Foundation. It is an American 

Muslim charity. There might have been some press reports 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

113

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
on the television or newspapers, and so we need to find 

out if you have heard anything about it in the resent 

past, now or years ago. 

VENIRE PERSON: I heard nothing, except this 

morning on the way here I heard -- they just made the 

statement that jury selection was beginning today in 

Dallas for the Holy -- I'm not sure. Holy Land and that's 

all they said. In my head I thought, oh, maybe that's the 

jury selection I'm going to. 

MS. MORENO: Let's talk about that, who you 

felt. Was that an "oh, great" or "oh, no, what have I 

gotten myself into"? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I was just thinking maybe 

that is the situation, my jury selection that I'm a part 

of. It was just a thought that it could be. 

MS. MORENO: And you were right. This is where 

we are now. I want to ask you some more questions, Ms. 

Rogina. What we're looking for is honesty. There is no 

right answer or wrong answer. We're just exploring 

whether you would be a good juror to sit on a case like 

this? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: I see on your questionnaire that 

you are an English-as-a-second-language teacher. How long 

have you been doing that? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

114

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Approximately four years. A 

teacher for ten years. 

MS. MORENO: And you teach kindergarten? 

VENIRE PERSON: Pre K, four and five years old. 

MS. MORENO: And in your English as a second 

language, are those adults? 

VENIRE PERSON: Oh, no, the children. 

MS. MORENO: Now, have you ever experienced in 

terms of translation -- Let me ask you, do you speak 

Spanish? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I do not. English as a 

second language you teach using strategies, pictures, body 

language, visuals. You don't have to rely on the first 

language because there might be children in the class that 

have different languages, but I do work with a class that 

is also one language. 

MS. MORENO: What language is that? 

VENIRE PERSON: That would be Spanish. 

MS. MORENO: And you don't speak Spanish? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. My husband is fluent. 

MS. MORENO: He's Cuban? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: Have you ever experienced the idea 

in translation that sometimes the words are right but the 

meaning is wrong? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

115

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: The words are right but the 

meaning is wrong? 

MS. MORENO: Perhaps a literal translation. 

VENIRE PERSON: Oh, yes, most definitely.

MS. MORENO: Tell us about that. 

VENIRE PERSON: Using a word for word 

translation to go home to parents, that in the past they 

said, oh, yes, this would work, and then a native Spanish 

speaker would read it and say, oh, my, goodness, this 

doesn't even make sense. So yes, we have had that 

experience. 

MS. MORENO: So the meaning was contrary to what 

you thought you were putting down when you put the 

word-for-word translation? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: All right. Thank you. Let me ask 

you. You were talking about your class is mainly Spanish. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: Have you ever had any experience 

with people of Muslim faith? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I have not. 

MS. MORENO: Never worked with or dealt with any 

Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I have not. 

MS. MORENO: Do you have any opinion about 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

116

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
people of the Muslim faith as you sit here now? General 

questions? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think we are all human beings, 

and we're different in our own ways, and I respect all. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Rogina. 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor, thank you. Good 

afternoon. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good afternoon.

MR. JACKS: When people address you, do they 

call you Ms. Rogina or Ms. Lopez or Ms. Lopez-Rogina? 

VENIRE PERSON: All of the above. 

MR. JACKS: What would you prefer? 

VENIRE PERSON: Rogina. That's fine.

MR. JACKS: When did your husband immigrate to 

the United States? 

VENIRE PERSON: When he was five. 

MR. JACKS: When did he move to this area? 

VENIRE PERSON: I believe he was about third 

grade or so, approximately. 

MR. JACKS: Did you meet here in the Dallas 

metroplex area? 

VENIRE PERSON: Huntsville, Texas. College. 

MR. JACKS: Sam Houston? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

117

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And I believe on one of the 

information sheets you showed that he is an IT manager? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And for whom does he work? 

VENIRE PERSON: He was just laid off. 

MR. JACKS: I'm sorry. 

VENIRE PERSON: But it was Dust Free in Royce 

City. 

MR. JACKS: And what type of business are they 

in? 

VENIRE PERSON: Air filtration.

MR. JACKS: Have you and your family lived in 

Royce City for sixteen years? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And prior to that it was Lewisville 

and Bedford. Is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct.

MR. JACKS: You indicated that you have 

previously been on a jury in a criminal case. Is that 

correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And that was in Hunt County? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And that's the one experience you 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

118

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
have had on the jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: How long did your husband work for 

that air filtration company? 

VENIRE PERSON: I am estimating about fifteen 

years I think. 

MR. JACKS: And you said it is located in Royce 

City? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Is his educational background in 

information technology? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. He had started out -- He 

has done many things -- plumbing, electrical. He's 

someone that -- get an idea about something he wants to 

do, learn it and do it. He started at that company as 

maintenance, and then he decided he enjoyed the computers, 

and he took over their computer program as he grew. He 

started their program with the network.

MR. JACKS: Okay. And I believe you said that 

after your marriage is when your husband became a 

naturalized U.S. citizen. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I'm not sure how long after 

we were married that he went.

MR. JACKS: I think that's all I have. Thank 

you. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

119

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
THE COURT: Ms. Rogina, you are part of the pool 

from which this jury will be selected. We're still 

talking with members of that group, and it will probably 

be later this week before we know who the jurors are. So 

in the meantime you should not discuss the subject of this 

case with anyone or watch or read or listen to any media 

accounts of it. Thank you. You may rejoin the others in 

the hall. 

Good afternoon, Mr. Lovely, counsel in this case 

have some questions for you. Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Lovely, how are you doing, 

I'm Greg Westfall. 

VENIRE PERSON: How you doing. 

MR. WESTFALL: I'm one of the defense lawyers in 

this case. How are you today? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm good. 

MR. WESTFALL: This case is the Holy Land 

Foundation. It's the United States versus Holy Land 

Foundation, and it involves a Muslim charity that is 

accused of giving material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization, HAMAS. Are you familiar with the case? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Haven't heard anything in the 

news or anything about it? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

120

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Are you surprised to hear that? 

This is the first time you have ever heard it? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm not surprised after what 

happened on 9-11 I guess. I'm not surprised too much. 

MR. WESTFALL: Tell me a little bit more about 

that. You are not surprised about what happens after 

9-11? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, things like that is 

capable of happening in this country. That's what I mean. 

MR. WESTFALL: Right. How do you feel being on 

a jury that's going to decide issues in any way related to 

terrorism? 

VENIRE PERSON: I feel I'm a citizen in this 

country, and it's part of my right. 

MR. WESTFALL: It's part of your right? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's my right, you know. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you -- Is there anything about 

it that would make it difficult for you to make a decision 

just based on the evidence? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: You work in the juvenile system? 

VENIRE PERSON: Correct. 

MR. WESTFALL: Tell me what you do. 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm a juvenile residential 

officer. I work in the therapeutic part. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

121

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: And what kind of therapy are we 

talking about? 

VENIRE PERSON: Teaching life skills to 

juveniles, males of course. Just do all type of 

therapeutic games and things of that nature. 

MR. WESTFALL: Does this age-wise run the gamut? 

VENIRE PERSON: From twelve to seventeen. 

MR. WESTFALL: How long have you been doing 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Last three years. 

MR. WESTFALL: How do you like it? 

VENIRE PERSON: I love it. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you think you are going to 

keep on doing it? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Sounds like you believe in it. 

Have you had any particular training in law enforcement or 

anything like that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, yes, you could say 

de-escalation and crisis and things of that nature. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, it's like social work? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, it's like social worker. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you done something like that 

all of your life, work with the church and stuff? 

VENIRE PERSON: Pretty much. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

122

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: What church? 

VENIRE PERSON: I go to Eternal Rest Baptist 

Church, but I worked in the drug prevention field for 

twelve years before I started in the juvenile department. 

Working for a nonprofit organization. 

MR. WESTFALL: Like which ones? 

VENIRE PERSON: A place called Nexus Recovery 

Center. I worked for a company called Rainbow Days. I 

work for an adolescent treatment facility, Home Street 

Foundation. 

MR. WESTFALL: And these were all organizations 

where people would donate money? 

VENIRE PERSON: Sure, yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you do your work based upon 

the money donated? 

VENIRE PERSON: Nonprofit. 

MR. WESTFALL: And how long have you done that 

kind of work? 

VENIRE PERSON: For the last fourteen, fifteen 

years. 

MR. WESTFALL: In a case where we're talking 

about material support of terrorism, you said you can be 

fair and impartial. You know there is a burden of proof 

beyond a reasonable doubt? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

123

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Can you hold the government to 

that burden? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Any problem with that at all? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: You know that everyone in the 

criminal justice system is presumed innocent until the 

government proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: Any problem with that in a case 

like this? 

VENIRE PERSON: None whatsoever. 

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Lovely, thank you very much. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Mr. Lovely? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. Thank you. Good 

afternoon, Mr. Lovely. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good afternoon. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks. I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas. I'm one 

of the prosecutors on this case. I have just a few 

questions that I would like to ask you as well, if you 

don't mind. In your job as the juvenile resident officer, 

have you ever had to testify in juvenile court or any 

court proceeding? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

124

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Is that just because nothing has 

happened or it's not part of your job? 

VENIRE PERSON: Because nothing has happened. 

MR. JACKS: Is your job one that you are -- that 

you live in a facility with these juveniles? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Can you then educate me about what 

it means to be a juvenile resident officer? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. The shift -- I work the 

first shift which is from seven to three o'clock, and I'm 

on duty from seven to three o'clock every day. Of course, 

somebody calls in or comes in late, then I would have to 

stay over because we are a twenty-four hour facility. 

MR. JACKS: Is this the juvenile detention 

facility on Interstate 30? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. It's a branch from that. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. 

VENIRE PERSON: The detention center is just 

like a holding center. I work for -- The branch I work 

for is called Youth Village, and it's more of a 

therapeutic part of the detention center. What we doing 

is we teaching the youth skills, life skills, teaching 

them to use thinking arrows so we can get them back in 

society. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

125

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Are they serving a sentence there or 

is it -- Is it mandatory that they be there or voluntary? 

VENIRE PERSON: Voluntary. And the way it works 

is they finish our program successfully, then their record 

will be sealed.

MR. JACKS: So they have done something to 

violate the law to end up there? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. It's a part of their 

probation.

MR. JACKS: One of the forms that we have, it 

looks like you indicated that your wife is a manager. 

What kind of manager is she or who does she work? 

VENIRE PERSON: She works for a company called 

Smith Ink Blot. It's a small architect firm over in 

uptown, and she's an office manager. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know about how big, as far as 

the number of people that work there? 

VENIRE PERSON: Six. 

MR. JACKS: How long has she worked for them? 

VENIRE PERSON: The last four years. 

MR. JACKS: Are you originally from Dallas? Is 

this where you grew up? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And some people on their 

questionnaire have indicated different things as far as 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

126

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
children. Some people have said they didn't have children 

and what they meant by that was their children were grown 

and left the house. Do you have any children? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: About what age are they? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't call my stepkids my 

stepkids, I call them my kids. I have four kids. 

MR. JACKS: And what age range do they cover? 

VENIRE PERSON: One is twenty-four. One is 

twenty and one nineteen and one is eighteen. 

MR. JACKS: And how many of them live with you 

and your wife? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right now, none. They all off 

to college. 

MR. JACKS: Were they her children by an earlier 

marriage? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, two of them is hers, and 

two of them are mine.

MR. JACKS: I believe you advised us earlier 

that you have not really followed or heard anything about 

this case in the news; is that true? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And Mr. Westfall mentioned that the 

charges in this case essentially are that the Holy Land 

Foundation and the men that worked in that organization 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

127

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
provided material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization, specifically HAMAS, H-A-M-A-S. Have you 

heard of HAMAS before? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: The Judge will give instructions to 

the jury after both sides have finished presenting their 

evidence, and he would read these instructions to you and 

then give you a copy of them in writing. But essentially 

he would tell the jury what the law is here in the United 

States as it pertains to these charges so that you can 

then take the facts and the law and apply them together to 

reach your verdict. One of the things I expect he would 

include in those instructions is that with regard to a 

charge of providing material support to a foreign 

terrorist organization, that he would tell you that the 

law is even if the funds or the money that is provided to 

that terrorist organization are used for things such as 

medicine or books or soccer balls or a backpacks or 

welfare payments -- even if that is how the money is 

spent -- that is still a violation of the law. Do you 

understand that principle? And do you have any question 

about that? Or is that something if the Judge told you 

that was the law that you could agree with that and follow 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I could.

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

128

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: You said that you were active in 

your church -- Was it Friendship West? 

VENIRE PERSON: Eternal Rest. 

MR. JACKS: You said that was a Baptist 

denomination? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: What part of Dallas is it located 

in? 

VENIRE PERSON: Northeast Dallas, off Ross and 

Washington. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, your time has expired. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Mr. Lovely, as you probably can 

tell, we are still in the process of interviewing members 

of the panel from which the jury will be selected. That 

process will probably take us until the latter part of 

this week. So until you hear from us again, you should 

not discuss this case with anyone or allow anyone to 

discuss it with you. Nor should you read or watch or 

listen to any media accounts of the case. Thank you. You 

may rejoin the others in the hall. 

Good afternoon, Ms. Marshall. 

VENIRE PERSON: Afternoon. 

THE COURT: Counsel for parties in this case 

have some questions for you. Mr. Westfall. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

129

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. 

Marshall, I'm Greg Westfall. How are you today? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fine, how are you? 

MR. WESTFALL: Very well. I was listening to 

see if I was going to be able to hear your voice. I am 

one of the defense lawyers in this case, and I am going to 

speak with you a little bit, and the government is going 

to speak with you a little bit. This case is the Holy 

Land Foundation case, United States versus Holy Land 

Foundation, and it involves allegations that the Muslim 

charity, the Holy Land Foundation -- it's an 

American-Muslim charity -- gave material support to a 

foreign terrorist organization, specifically HAMAS. 

Having heard that, do you recognize the case? 

VENIRE PERSON: I read in the paper this 

morning. 

MR. WESTFALL: You read in the paper this 

morning?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: Which paper did you read? 

VENIRE PERSON: Dallas Morning News. 

MR. WESTFALL: Did you read the whole article? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I did. 

MR. WESTFALL: And what sort of impressions or 

opinions did you form as a result of that? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

130

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Confused. 

MR. WESTFALL: Confused? Well, that's good. Do 

you remember ever hearing about it before this morning? 

VENIRE PERSON: I really hadn't, no. 

MR. WESTFALL: Having read that, do you think 

there is anything about that and you reading that that 

would make it difficult for you to serve as a juror in 

this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't think it would. 

MR. WESTFALL: How long have you been with 

Baylor? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fifteen years. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you work in the school part or 

treatment part? 

VENIRE PERSON: I work in the treatment part. 

I'm a dental technician. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have been on a jury before? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I have. 

MR. WESTFALL: And have you been on more than 

one you think? Criminal jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: One was civil, and the other was 

grand jury. I was on there for a couple of months, but it 

was like one day a week, and it was several cases every 

day. 

MR. WESTFALL: Where were you on the grand jury? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

131

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: At the Crowley Building. 

MR. WESTFALL: So here in Dallas? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: How did you like that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Very interesting. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you must be intimately 

familiar with the Constitutional rights people have when 

they are charged with crimes? 

VENIRE PERSON: A little bit. 

MR. WESTFALL: You know you have a burden of 

proof in criminal courts. It's not anything like the 

grand jury. Grand jury is probable cause. But once it 

gets here, we're talking about reasonable doubt, and of 

course, the presumption of innocence. Even though you 

have been indicted, the government still has to prove its 

case beyond a reasonable doubt, and anyone charged with a 

crime is presumed innocent up until the time that the jury 

decides the government has proven the case beyond a 

reasonable doubt. What do you think of those? Do you 

like those protections? Too protective, not protective 

enough? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think they are fair. 

MR. WESTFALL: Why do you think we have them? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well -- 

MR. JACKS: Judge, I object to the form of the 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

132

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
question. I don't believe that's germane to her 

qualifications to serve on the jury. 

THE COURT: I didn't understand the question. 

What was it, Mr. Westfall? 

MR. WESTFALL: I asked her why does she believe 

or why does she think that we have a presumption of 

innocence. 

THE COURT: I'll permit it. Overruled. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, it's to make it fair, just 

make the process fair? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you agree with those 

protections? Do you feel like they are good? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think so. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims in your 

work? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, not personally. You know, 

we have them, all nationalities go to school there. But 

you know -- 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you had any bad experiences 

with Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Any good experiences with Muslim? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have never had any problem 

with anybody really. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

133

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: This is a case that has terrorism 

in the name. In this case, can you presume a Muslim 

innocent until the government either carries his burden of 

proof or doesn't? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't feel like anybody is 

guilty until they are proven guilty, is my belief. 

MR. WESTFALL: Just like on the grand jury, the 

ones that do the accusing have to do the proving? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, that's my belief. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Marshall? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor, thank you. Good 

afternoon, Ms. Marshall. 

VENIRE PERSON: Hi, how are you. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks. I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas, and I'm 

one of the prosecutors in this case. I have a few brief 

questions that I would like to ask you to follow-up on 

your questionnaire and also questions that Mr. Westfall 

asked you if you don't mind. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: As I understand it, you have lived 

in the Dallas area all of your life. Is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And how long have you worked in the 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

134

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
field as a dental technician? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have been there fifteen years. 

Before I did that, I worked in the grocery business. 

MR. JACKS: Grocery business? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: For one of the major chains? 

VENIRE PERSON: It was Safeway. 

MR. JACKS: Did you work in a store or some 

other capacity? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. I worked in a store. 

MR. JACKS: Different parts of town or mainly in 

one store? 

VENIRE PERSON: Mainly in East Dallas. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. Your children are all grown? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, they are. 

MR. JACKS: Do they live in this area still? 

VENIRE PERSON: All of them live here in Dallas. 

MR. JACKS: On the questionnaire when it asked 

you about prior jury service, let's see, you said you had 

been on a jury in a civil case but you weren't sure of the 

date. 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I'm not sure of the date. 

It was so long ago. 

MR. JACKS: Do you remember what the nature of 

the dispute was? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

135

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: I can't remember. Really I 

don't remember. I know it was civil, but I don't know. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. You checked yes that you had 

been a juror in a criminal case. Is that accurate, that 

you have been on a trial jury in a criminal case? 

VENIRE PERSON: I was on a trial jury. I'm 

trying to think -- I remember one case was for incest, and 

I know I was on another one, but I was so young I can't 

remember what that case was for. I know I was on two. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know if the jury reached a 

verdict? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, we did. 

MR. JACKS: And you said you did serve on the 

Dallas County, Texas grand jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: About how long was that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think that was about ten years 

ago I believe. 

MR. JACKS: And you said the term was for sixty 

days. Is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: We were there -- I think it was 

a two-month deal, and we went one day a week, and they had 

several things on docket every Thursday. I know it was on 

a Thursday. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. Mr. Westfall briefly touched 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

136

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
on the nature of the charges in this case, and as he 

stated to you, the principal or I guess the way the case 

has been referred to is the United States versus the Holy 

Land Foundation and certain individuals that work with 

that organization, and they have been indicted for 

providing material support to a foreign terrorist group, 

specifically HAMAS. Have you ever heard of HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: Just what I read. 

MR. JACKS: Through the news? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's it. 

MR. JACKS: Do you regularly read the 

newspapers? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I do. 

MR. JACKS: And the Judge will -- as you 

probably remember from having been on a jury. After all 

the evidence has been presented, the Judge will read 

instructions to the jury telling them what the law is, 

giving definitions of words, principles of law that you 

are to apply to the facts that have come into evidence so 

that you can render your verdict. Do you remember that 

part of the procedure? 

VENIRE PERSON: I do. 

MR. JACKS: And the Judge in this case will do 

that same thing to those that are on the jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

137

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: I principles of law or the 

principles of the statutes that pertain to a charge of 

providing material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization, the Judge will tell the jury that even if 

the funds -- the money that is provided to a terrorist 

organization -- is spent for things such as books, 

backpacks or medicine or support funds for widows and 

orphans, even if it is spent for what would otherwise be 

good purposes, that is still a violation of the law. 

Having said that to you, I assume you probably weren't 

aware of that particular feature in the law. Is that 

right? Could you answer out? 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. Now what? 

MR. JACKS: I assume you were not aware of that 

before you came in here today. 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: If the Judge told you that was the 

law, could you abide by it and apply it? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think I could. 

MR. JACKS: There is one thing on the 

questionnaire that I wanted to touch on. There was a 

question that asked you whether you spoke Arabic or 

Hebrew, and you answered no. And the next question was -- 

and I'm not sure if you intended to answer this or not. 

But it was if you speak, read or understand Arabic or 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

138

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Hebrew, would you have any difficulty relying solely on 

the translator's translation of the evidence. And you 

said yes. Do you remember that question? 

VENIRE PERSON: That means if someone was 

translating it to me in English? 

MR. JACKS: Right. 

VENIRE PERSON: I understand English, yes. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, your time is expired. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, I think I understand your 

answer. 

Ms. Marshall, as you can probably tell, we're in 

the process of talking with members of the pool from which 

our jury will be selected. We probably will be at least a 

couple of days. So it will be later this week before we 

know who's on the jury or who's not. And in the mean time 

don't discuss this case with anyone or allow anyone to 

discuss it with you or read or watch any media accounts of 

the case. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

THE COURT: We're finished with our questioning 

of you, and so you may rejoin the others in the hall. 

Thank you. 

THE COURT: Good afternoon, is your name 

pronounced Arce? 

VENIRE PERSON: Arce. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

139

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
THE COURT: Counsel for the parties have some 

questions for you about this case. Mr. Westfall.

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Arce, I'm Greg Westfall. 

VENIRE PERSON: Hi. 

MR. WESTFALL: I'm one of the defense lawyers in 

this case. I want to talk to you a little bit, and then I 

imagine the government will talk to you a little bit. 

Okay?

VENIRE PERSON: Okay.

MR. WESTFALL: This case is about an allegation 

by the government that the Holy Land Foundation for Relief 

and Development, which is an American Muslim charity -- or 

was -- gave material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization, specifically HAMAS. Does that ring any 

bells with you? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have heard of HAMAS on news 

before, but don't remember exactly what it was connected 

with. 

MR. WESTFALL: This charity was in Richardson, 

Texas. Never. Heard anything about arrests or anything 

like that? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you know about HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: I just heard the name in the 

news. I know it's a terrorist group. I never paid too 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

140

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
much attention. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know where they are 

supposed to operate? 

VENIRE PERSON: Overseas somewhere. 

MR. WESTFALL: How long have you been with the 

post office? 

VENIRE PERSON: About seven years. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you like it? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you work with any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I don't believe I do. Not 

to my knowledge. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not personally. 

MR. WESTFALL: Anybody of Arabic decent? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think my mechanic is. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you like your mechanic? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I do. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you had any good experience 

with Muslims or bad experiences, anything that sticks out? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not to speak of, nothing bad or 

good. 

MR. WESTFALL: Israel and Palestine, have you 

ever done any studying on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 

at all? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

141

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: I haven't done any studying. I 

heard it on the news. I know there is conflicts between 

the two. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have an opinion on that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know enough to have an 

opinion on it. 

MR. WESTFALL: In a criminal trial, you know 

everyone has the right not to testify against themselves. 

Did you know that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you been on a jury before? 

I didn't think that you had. 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: In addition, there is the burden 

which is always on the government, never shifts. And it's 

called beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the highest 

burden in the law, and that's reserved only for criminal 

trials. Did you know that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And then there is the presumption 

of innocence that I'm sure you know about. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: It is that anybody who's charged 

with a criminal case anywhere in this nation, they are 

presumed innocent until the government proves its case 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

142

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
beyond a reasonable doubt. How do you feel about those 

protections? 

VENIRE PERSON: I feel it's very fair. 

MR. WESTFALL: So if somebody doesn't want to 

testify -- Can you imagine somebody not testifying in 

their own criminal trial? 

VENIRE PERSON: Can I imagine it? Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: Any problems at all, you know, 

with the length of trial being four months or somewhere 

thereabouts? Nobody can guarantee how long it's going to 

go, but it's going a while. Anything about that make it 

hard for you to serve and keep your mind on it? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: That's all, your Honor. Thank 

you. Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Arce? 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Arce, my name is Jim Jacks. I'm 

one of the prosecutors on this case. I have a few 

questions. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Are your children still at home? 

VENIRE PERSON: My daughter moved out, and my 

son recently moved out and moved back in, and I have my 

thirteen year old at home with me. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

143

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Have you lived in the Dallas area 

basically your entire life? 

VENIRE PERSON: Just about. 

MR. JACKS: And you said you had worked for the 

Postal Service about seven years? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, about seven years. 

MR. JACKS: What kind of work did you do before 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I was a homemaker. I stayed at 

home. 

MR. JACKS: Any other jobs that you have had 

outside the home other than for the Postal Service? 

VENIRE PERSON: I worked part time here and 

there. Kroger at one point. I also did the census, and 

when I was in high school I worked part time at a grocery 

store. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. One of the things that you 

responded to on the questionnaire was that a couple of 

your children had had a misdemeanor theft charge. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: How long ago was that? 

VENIRE PERSON: My daughter had one just at the 

beginning of the year, new year, to be precise, and my 

son, I think it was like two years ago. 

MR. JACKS: Were they juveniles or older than 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

144

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
seventeen at the time? 

VENIRE PERSON: Older than seventeen. 

MR. JACKS: Have those been resolved? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, they have. 

MR. JACKS: Do you feel like they were treated 

fairly when those were resolved? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Would you describe yourself as 

active in your church? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, not really active. I guess 

moderate.

MR. JACKS: I understand. You've told us that 

you don't know much at all obviously about this case from 

the media. Is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, it is. 

MR. JACKS: And you have not been on a trial 

jury before? You have never served on a trial jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct. 

MR. JACKS: Have you ever received a jury 

summons? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And have you been through this 

process before, not so much as an individual but as a 

group? Did you get summoned to a courtroom and go through 

the jury selection process? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

145

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I did. 

MR. JACKS: Was that at Dallas County, Texas? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, at Lew Sterrett. 

MR. JACKS: Crowley or whatever? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: At the end of the evidence when both 

sides have presented all their evidence, the Judge will 

deliver or read to the jury the Court's charge or its jury 

instructions which are basically the Judge telling the 

jury this is the law that should be applied to this case, 

and you have heard mentioned that one of the charges is 

providing material support to a foreign terrorist 

organization. Well, he would read that law to you and 

explain to you definitions like what is a foreign 

terrorist organization, that type of thing. In addition, 

as a part of those instructions, I anticipate the Judge 

will tell the jury that with regard to the notion of 

material support, whether it's money, currency or 

whatever, that even if that material support is in the 

form of food, clothing, books, medical equipment to be 

used in a hospital, even if it's in that type of form, if 

it's being provided for the benefit of a foreign terrorist 

organization, that that's against the law. 

Do you have any feelings one way or the other 

about that feature of the law? Do you agree with it, 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

146

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
disagree with it? Could you follow it? 

VENIRE PERSON: I could follow it.

MR. JACKS: Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, your 

Honor. 

THE COURT: Ms. Arce, as you can probably tell, 

we are in the process of determining now who will be on 

the jury that would hear this case. We are expecting that 

this process will extend over a period of days. So it 

will probably be later this week before we know who's on 

the jury, and in the meantime until you hear from us again 

you should not discuss this case with anyone or allow 

anyone to discuss it with you. Nor should you read or 

watch or listen to any media accounts of the case. Thank 

you. You may rejoin the others in the hall. 

THE COURT: Good afternoon, Ms. Ho. Counsel 

for the parties in this case have some questions for you. 

Ms. Moreno. 

MS. MORENO: Good afternoon. My name is Linda 

Moreno, and I represent one of the gentlemen here in this 

particular case. I want to ask you some questions about 

the questionnaire that you filled out all of those months 

ago. Do you remember that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not for sure. 

MS. MORENO: I am going to need you to speak up 

just a little bit. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

147

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Let me first ask you, this is a case that may 

take three months, four months, five months. It's 

uncertain at this time. Knowing that, would that pose a 

hardship for you, an economic hardship for you? Would 

that be a big problem for you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, one thing I would like to 

let you know, I don't think I'm good on a jury because I'm 

not speaking English very well. 

MS. MORENO: In fact, I saw from your 

questionnaire that English is your second language. Is 

that right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, that's correct. 

MS. MORENO: In this case there is going to be a 

lot of documents and transcripts and tapes. Do you think 

that you could follow along easily all of that kind of 

evidence in the English language or would that be too 

difficult for you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, that's very difficult for 

me. 

MS. MORENO: So what I understand you to say, 

because of the difficulty in comprehending the English 

language, you would not be able to be a good juror for 

this case and be able to follow the evidence. Is that 

right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

148

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MS. MORENO: Thank you so much. Pass the juror. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Ho? 

MR. JACKS: Very briefly, your Honor. My name 

is Jim Jacks, and I'm an Assistant United States Attorney 

here in Dallas and one of the prosecutors on the case. 

You said you had lived in the Dallas area for thirteen 

years. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Where did you live before that? 

VENIRE PERSON: In Grand Prairie. 

MR. JACKS: In Grand Prairie? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Were you born in the United States 

or did you immigrate to the United States? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm not born in the United 

States. 

MR. JACKS: When did you move to the United 

States? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't remember. It's been a 

long time ago. 

MR. JACKS: And is it your view that it would be 

difficult for you to understand the evidence because it's 

not your first language? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

149

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Well, I think your English is 

excellent, but I understand your concern. Thank you, your 

Honor. 

THE COURT: Ms. Ho, we are in the process of 

selecting the jury that would hear this case. But it 

probably will be later this week before we know who's on 

the jury. So in the meantime you should not discuss this 

case with anyone or allow anyone to discuss it with you. 

Nor should you read or watch or listen to any media 

accounts of the case. Thank you, you may rejoin the 

others in the hall. 

VENIRE PERSON: All right. Thank you.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, at this point we would 

move the Court to excuse Ms. Ho. She cannot understand 

the English language. She was very honest with us. She 

could not follow the evidence. She volunteered that 

information. I really didn't have to elicit it from her. 

So I think that rises to a cause challenge. 

THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: No, your Honor. 

THE COURT: I will excuse Ms. Ho for cause.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I have been asked to 

inquire -- We have a couple of people here with bathroom 

issues. Maybe after this one take a short break to go to 

the restroom? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

150

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
THE COURT: Okay.

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. Mr. 

Kiblinger, I think we're ready to see Mr. Smith. 

THE COURT: Good afternoon, Mr. Smith. Counsel 

for the parties have some questions they would like to ask 

you.

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Smith, how you doing? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fine. 

MR. WESTFALL: I'm Greg Westfall. I'm one of 

lawyers representing the defendants in this case. Do you 

know what case we're here on? 

VENIRE PERSON: (Shakes head)

MR. WESTFALL: United States versus Holy Land 

Foundation which is an American Muslim charity that is 

accused of giving material support to HAMAS which is a 

terrorist organization. Now, knowing that additional 

information, does that ring a bell at all? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. 

MR. WESTFALL: You haven't read anything about 

it in the paper or anything like that? 

VENIRE PERSON: It sounds kind of familiar 

but -- 

MR. WESTFALL: I guess you haven't made up your 

mind one way or the other? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

151

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Do you know what HAMAS is? Are 

you familiar with HAMAS, the organization? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's a Muslim organization? 

MR. WESTFALL: Right. 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I'm not familiar with it. 

MR. WESTFALL: You are retired now? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you do? 

VENIRE PERSON: I worked for the public schools 

in Dallas. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you do now that you are 

retired? Do you still have some jobs that you do? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I don't right now. I'm too 

old. 

MR. WESTFALL: Just kind of taking it easy. 

Have you ever been on a jury before? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you are probably familiar 

with these, but there are some protections that apply to 

anyone who's charged with a crime in the American jury 

system in a criminal case. I bet you already know what 

some of those are. You don't have to testify if you don't 

want to if you are a criminal defendant. Did you know 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

152

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: 5th Amendment, pleading the 5th 

Amendment? 

VENIRE PERSON: I remember that. 

MR. WESTFALL: That really is a protection in a 

criminal trial and a very serious one. If somebody 

doesn't want to testify in a criminal case, their own, 

they don't have to, and the jury is not allowed to hold 

that against them. Are you okay with that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you think that's fair? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And another one is called 

presumption of innocence. Anyone charged with a crime in 

the United States is presumed innocent? 

VENIRE PERSON: Until proven. 

MR. WESTFALL: As we sit here everybody is 

presumed innocent. The presumption of innocence is 

sufficient alone to acquit a person; that is, unless the 

government proves its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And 

you have heard about beyond a reasonable doubt? 

VENIRE PERSON: I understand. 

MR. WESTFALL: This is a case that the -- You 

know terrorism is in the name of the offense. How do you 

feel about giving those protections to somebody charged 

with terrorism in the name of the offense? Do you think 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

153

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
that they should have those protections like anyone else? 

VENIRE PERSON: Sure. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you ever known any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm not sure. 

MR. WESTFALL: How about Arabs? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have any opinions about 

Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, that's their belief. 

MR. WESTFALL: Right. Do you often go to church 

yourself? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Which church do you go to, just 

denomination? 

VENIRE PERSON: Baptist. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you volunteer at all at the 

church? Do any volunteer work? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you do? 

VENIRE PERSON: Sunday school superintendent. 

MR. WESTFALL: What does a Sunday school 

superintendent do? 

VENIRE PERSON: Teach the lesson and then I help 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

154

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
with other things, too, with the children. 

MR. WESTFALL: So do you have, like, some 

administrative duties in addition to teaching the Sunday 

school? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: You know that Israel is kind of 

disputed territory, some of it? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: Palestine-Israeli issue, how do 

you feel about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't have a feeling about it. 

To each his own. So I don't have an opinion how I feel on 

it. 

MR. WESTFALL: As between the Israelis and the 

Palestinians, you don't have a position on who's right or 

who's wrong in that? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I don't.

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you very much for speaking 

with me. 

VENIRE PERSON: You are welcome. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Mr. Smith? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor. Good afternoon, 

Mr. Smith. My name is Jim Jacks, and I'm an Assistant 

United States Attorney here in, Dallas and I'm one of 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

155

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
prosecutors on this case. I have a few questions that I 

would like to ask you if you don't mind. You've been 

retired from DISD for how long? 

VENIRE PERSON: Since 2000. 

MR. JACKS: And you worked there for how long?

VENIRE PERSON: Fifteen years. 

MR. JACKS: Did you work at different campuses 

or always at the same campus? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, to start out I was at 

different campuses until I became an assistant, and I was 

at one location then. 

MR. JACKS: Where was that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Pershing Middle School. 

MR. JACKS: How long did you work there at 

Pershing? 

VENIRE PERSON: Eleven years. 

MR. JACKS: Your wife -- On one of the forms 

that we have, you have shown that your wife is a housewife 

now? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Has she ever worked outside the 

home? 

VENIRE PERSON: She did at Salvation Army. 

MR. JACKS: And what kind of work did she do 

there? Was it one of their stores? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

156

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: No, where they take in abused 

children. Abused wives. 

MR. JACKS: At a shelter? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: How long did she work there? 

VENIRE PERSON: A couple of years. 

MR. JACKS: Any other work she did outside the 

home? 

VENIRE PERSON: I think she worked at Sears 

warehouse. 

MR. JACKS: Was that location down here on Lamar 

years ago or --

VENIRE PERSON: No, it was more or less Garland 

area.

MR. JACKS: Prior to working for DISD, what kind 

of work did you do? 

VENIRE PERSON: Warehouse work, forklift and 

filling orders. 

MR. JACKS: For whom did you work? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's slipping.

MR. JACKS: That's okay. Let me ask you this. 

What type of product did they sell? 

VENIRE PERSON: Washing powders and soaps and 

toothpaste. 

MR. JACKS: You said you have not served on a 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

157

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
jury before. 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct. 

MR. JACKS: I take it your children are all 

grown and left home. 

VENIRE PERSON: All grown.

MR. JACKS: One of the -- One of the questions 

that Mr. Westfall gave you was a very brief description of 

what this case is about, what the charges are. And at the 

end of the evidence, when both sides have rested their 

case, the Judge will read his instructions to the jury 

which it will be a multi-page document, and the jury will 

have a copy of it when they are deliberating. But it 

basically contains the law as it applies to this case. It 

will tell you what has to be present in the evidence in 

order to find that somebody has provided material support 

to a foreign terrorist organization. He would give you 

definitions like a foreign terrorist organization is what, 

and they will tell you what that means. I anticipate that 

as a part of those instructions he would tell you what 

must happen or must be present for you to find or believe 

that someone has violated this law, but I anticipate that 

he would also tell you that even if the defendant or some 

other -- that person gave support, whether in the form of 

money or goods like educational supplies, backpacks, 

books, food, money to support people, soccer balls, 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

158

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
anything like that, so called maybe humanitarian aid -- 

Even if the support is of that type, if it's for the 

benefit of a foreign terrorist organization, it's against 

the law. Do you understand that explanation as I gave it 

to you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Do you agree with that provision of 

the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't think so. 

MR. JACKS: You don't think so? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. JACKS: So if the evidence in this case 

showed that's -- For example, if money were given to this 

organization, this foreign terrorist organization, but it 

was spent for what would otherwise be in and of itself 

good things, that if that was what the evidence showed you 

couldn't return a guilty verdict? 

VENIRE PERSON: I look at it as a humanitarian 

situation. It's giving to help someone. 

MR. JACKS: I understand. 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't see where that's wrong. 

Maybe I'm wrong but --

MR. JACKS: Well, there are no wrong answers 

from where you sit. That's kind of the purpose of this, 

is to find out how jurors feel, what their life 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

159

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
experiences have been. And so it's not a question that 

your answer is right or wrong. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, your time has expired. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Smith, as you can tell, we're in 

the process of selecting a jurY from among the pool in 

this case, and so you should not discuss this case with 

anyone or allow anyone to discuss it with you. Nor should 

you read or watch or listen to any other media coverage 

about the case. Thank you. You may rejoin the others in 

the hall.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we would submit Mr. 

Smith for cause. 

THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Westfall? 

MR. WESTFALL: Yes, your Honor, we object. I'm 

not at all convinced that Mr. Smith understood the concept 

that the prosecutor was trying to get across, and the 

question itself had about a hundred fifty words including 

a laundry list of things. The issue is whether he can 

consider nonmonetary aid or non -- giving guns as material 

support of a terrorist organization. I don't think that 

question was fairly asked in a way that he could 

understand it, and I don't think they have made their 

challenge on the law, your Honor. 

THE COURT: This is another one that I will take 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

160

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
under advisement for the time being. 

Ladies and Gentlemen, we'll take a fifteen 

minute recess. 

(Recess)

THE COURT: Be seated, please. Good afternoon, 

Mr. Holmes. Counsel for the parties in this case have 

some questions for you. Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. I'm 

Greg Westfall. I'm one of the defense lawyers on this 

case. 

VENIRE PERSON: All right. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know what case this is? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: This is the Holy Land Foundation 

case, the United States versus Holy Land Foundation and 

several individuals. It is a case where what the 

government alleges is that the Holy Land Foundation, which 

is an American Muslim charity, gave material support to 

HAMAS which is a foreign terrorist organization. After 

telling you that, does that ring any bells? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you don't know anything about 

it? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: What do you do as a receiving 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

161

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
supervisor? 

VENIRE PERSON: We recycle cardboard. 

MR. WESTFALL: We recycle cardboard? 

VENIRE PERSON: Turn it into, like, what we call 

medium paper and liner paper, like paper sacks. Okay. 

It's in the form of that. But it's like sheets into six 

feet down. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you convert it into basically 

corrugated cardboard? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: How long have you been doing at 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Twenty-five years. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have been there a long time? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: What else did you do? Any 

volunteer work? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, except for at the church.

MR. WESTFALL: Which church is that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Mount Calvary Baptist church in 

Terrell. 

MR. WESTFALL: What kind of volunteer work do 

you do with them? 

VENIRE PERSON: Whatever the church requires to 

service the people. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

162

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Do you do any ministries with 

them at all? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: So just kind of help out at the 

church? 

VENIRE PERSON: Just help out wherever needs to 

be. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you do any other volunteer 

work? 

VENIRE PERSON: I do a lot of counseling. I 

like to talk to kids. I guess I put that in there.

MR. WESTFALL: How long have you done that? 

VENIRE PERSON: A little small town. Well, like 

most of the things I do is right there considered in the 

church. Sometime I help schools out. If they have 

athletes that need talking to, a lot of times if I know 

them personally I talk to them in that regard. 

MR. WESTFALL: So are you called to do that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Oh, no. 

MR. WESTFALL: You just see a need and you do 

it? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you ever known any 

practicing Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

163

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Have you had any experience with 

Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: How about Arabs in general? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: This is a case where obviously 

Muslim individuals are charged with a crime, providing 

material support to a terrorist organization? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Can you be fair and impartial if 

you're sitting on a jury with those types of charges? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: You just said no? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Can you be fair and impartial 

when we're talking about those types of charges? 

VENIRE PERSON: You are saying fair? 

MR. WESTFALL: Yes. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have any hesitation? 

VENIRE PERSON: Shouldn't have any hesitation. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know the rights that a 

criminal defendant has in our system? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. 

MR. WESTFALL: This will refresh you. You have 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

164

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
heard of them. Your right not to testify against 

yourself. 

VENIRE PERSON: Against yourself? Oh, yes, 

okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: If you don't want to testify in 

your own criminal trial, you don't have to? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you don't have to do that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: The government has to prove its 

case beyond a reasonable doubt. You are familiar with 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And everyone charged with a crime 

in this country, even in a case charging terrorism or any 

kind of case, you have the right to what's called the 

presumption of innocence? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you have any trouble with the 

presumption of innocence in a case like this? 

VENIRE PERSON: I say no. I don't know much 

about the judical (sic) system. I don't know that much 

about it. This is the first time I have ever been to a 

jury or called. So the stuff you asked about, I don't 

know anything about it. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

165

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: I understand. And we can't tell 

you much about it other than the charge. But the charge 

is material support of terrorism and the Constitutional 

protection is the presumption of innocence. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: So with the charge that has 

anything to do with terrorism, can you give a criminal 

defendant, somebody charged with that crime the 

presumption of innocence? 

VENIRE PERSON: Be pretty hard I guess. 

MR. WESTFALL: Tell me why. 

VENIRE PERSON: You said material, normally when 

you state that, that's right there in itself, you know. 

Me, my point I would say, boy, that's pretty hard there, 

trying to support it or not supporting it. I just can't 

see myself, me, supporting it because I know what it is. 

So terrorism, that's to act on something. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, what the issue will come 

down to is we're talking about charitable support. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: Charitable support given to 

people in another country, in Palestine, and the issue is 

going to be whether that charitable support helped HAMAS 

or only those people? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

166

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: And that is going to be basically 

your ultimate decision. Now, if the government proves to 

you beyond a reasonable doubt that it was given to those 

people with the intent to help HAMAS, you have to render 

your verdict accordingly which is guilty? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: But even though the material was 

given to those people over there -- when I say those 

people, I'm talking about Palestinians in Palestine. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: If the government fails to prove 

beyond a reasonable doubt that it was done to help HAMAS, 

then your verdict must be not guilty. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Does that make sense to you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Is that a law you can follow in 

this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: You don't have any problem with 

that? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall, your time is expired. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. Mr. 

Jacks, do you have questions for Mr. Holmes? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

167

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor. Good afternoon Mr. 

Holmes. My name is Jim Jacks. I'm an Assistant United 

States Attorney here in Dallas. I'm one of the 

prosecutors on this case. I have a few questions for you 

just to follow-up on some of the earlier ones that you 

were asked. You indicated that you have not served on a 

jury before. 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct. 

MR. JACKS: Have you ever been summoned for jury 

duty before? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Was that in Kaufman County? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: I don't know -- Some of the 

information we have is complete and some is not. Does 

your wife work outside the home? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: What type of work does she do? 

VENIRE PERSON: She's an MHMR assistant. 

MR. JACKS: Where physically does she work? 

VENIRE PERSON: Terrell State Hospital. 

MR. JACKS: You said she's an assistant, MHMR 

assistant? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: How long has she worked for that 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

168

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
organization? 

VENIRE PERSON: Twenty years I think. 

MR. JACKS: Your company is physically located 

where? 

VENIRE PERSON: Forney. 

MR. JACKS: And it looks like you have lived in 

the Dallas area most of your adult life. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Where did you live before that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Terrell. That's where I have 

been. 

MR. JACKS: And you attended college. Where did 

you attend college? 

VENIRE PERSON: McMurray College, Abilene, 

Texas. 

MR. JACKS: And your area of study was physical 

education and also real estate.

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: You have four kids. Are all of them 

grown and away from home? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: There was a part on the 

questionnaire that had several parts to it. One of them 

was do you have -- Let's see. You or anyone else close to 

you that has worked for a city or town attorney, attorney 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

169

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
general, state or federal prosecutor, and I think you 

indicated that you have a close friend. 

VENIRE PERSON: Oh, oh, oh, he's an attorney. 

Dave Mallard. 

MR. JACKS: Dave Mallard? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Is he from --

VENIRE PERSON: He's out of Terrell. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know what type of practice he 

has? 

VENIRE PERSON: He handled a divorce. He's like 

a collection lawyer. 

MR. JACKS: Mainly civil-type stuff? 

VENIRE PERSON: That, I don't know.

MR. JACKS: And then you said your wife has a 

close friend who works either in newspapers, radio or 

television or some other type of --

VENIRE PERSON: That was me. 

MR. JACKS: So the friend, your friend that 

works in that field, is it newspapers, radio, television? 

VENIRE PERSON: She works for Dallas Morning 

News. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know what that person's job 

is? Are they a writer or work on the business side? 

VENIRE PERSON: Just -- I don't know what she 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

170

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
work at. 

MR. JACKS: You indicated that you are not that 

familiar with the criminal justice system when Mr. 

Westfall was asking you about these concepts. Let me just 

ask you generally, whatever the Judge tells you regarding 

the law, regarding presumption of innocence, who has the 

burden of proof, that the government has the burden of 

proof, a defendant's right not to testify if he doesn't 

want to. And he can do that and not only can he do it, 

but the jury cannot hold it against him if he chooses to 

do that. Those types of things, could you follow those 

instructions if the Judge gave you those instructions? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: In that regard, after both sides 

have presented their evidence, all the evidence, witnesses 

and documents that they want to present and shortly before 

what's sometimes referred to as final summations or 

closing arguments, if you will, the Judge will read the 

law and tell the jury what the law is that should be 

applied to this case. And specifically with regard to a 

charge that somebody has provided material support to a 

foreign terrorist organization, he would tell you what 

that law says. He would define terms. He would tell you 

what a foreign terrorist organization is or this is the 

definition so that you can then say, all right, let's take 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

171

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
the evidence, has that been answered. I anticipate when 

he talks to you or tells you in his instructions in terms 

of what is prohibited in providing support to a terrorist 

organization that he would tell you that even if money is 

given over to an organization, a foreign terrorist 

organization, and that money is spent for so called 

humanitarian items -- medical supplies, books, other 

school supplies, athletic equipment, money to help people 

whose family member may be in prison or something such as 

that. Even if the money is spent in that way, I expect 

the Judge will tell you the law says if it goes for the 

benefit of a foreign terrorist organization, that's still 

a violation of the law. I wanted to ask you with that 

explanation, is there anything about that aspect of this 

law that concerns you or that would cause you to not be 

able to follow that aspect of the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, your time has expired. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Holmes, we're in the process of 

selecting the jury that would hear this case, and I expect 

this process will take another day or two at least. So 

until you hear from us again, you should not discuss this 

case with anyone or allow anyone to discuss it with you. 

Nor should you read or watch or listen to any media 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

172

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
accounts about the case. Thank you. You may rejoin the 

others in the hall. 

VENIRE PERSON: All right. 

THE COURT: Good afternoon Ms. Roberson, counsel 

for parties in this case have some questions for you. Ms. 

Moreno. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you, your Honor. Good 

afternoon, Mr. Roberson. My name is Linda Moreno, and I'm 

one of the defense attorneys in this case. I want to ask 

you some questions about some answers you gave on your 

questionnaire that you filled out months ago. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MS. MORENO: And I want to ask you some other 

questions as well. Let me tell you there are no right or 

wrong answers here. We're just here to find out if you 

could be a good juror for this particular case, if you can 

be fair to the parties involved. 

That said, this is a case involving the Holy 

Land Foundation charity. This charity is an American 

Muslim charity here in Texas. Have you heard anything 

about that either on television or on the radio or read 

anything in the news about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: This morning I did, coming here. 

It was on the radio. 

MS. MORENO: Do you remember what you heard? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

173

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Not too much. This morning when 

I heard it was on a Christian channel station that I 

listen to, and they was talking about the trial was going 

to be real big and how -- something about it was based on 

some Holy something and that's all I really heard. 

MS. MORENO: Now that you have found out that 

the case you heard about on your Christian radio station 

is this case, did you hear anything about the nature of 

the charges? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I did not. 

MS. MORENO: In this case the government alleges 

that this charity and these gentlemen supported a foreign 

terrorist organization called HAMAS. Have you ever heard 

of HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, ma'am. 

MS. MORENO: The government says that in this 

case the humanitarian aid that this charity distributed in 

Palestine in the form of medicine for children, books, 

toys, backpacks, this kind of humanitarian aid -- the 

government alleges benefited this terrorist organization. 

Okay? That's the allegation. Knowing that, is there 

anything about the nature of the charges that I have just 

described to you that gives you concern or if you have any 

opinions about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. I really don't have 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

174

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
an opinion, but one thing come to my mind when you said it 

benefited the people over in the Holy Land. 

MS. MORENO: Yes, ma'am. 

VENIRE PERSON: What do you mean by benefit? 

You mean they funded that over in the area? They went and 

gave them money to do what they wanted to do with the 

money. Is that correct? 

MS. MORENO: I think that -- If I can answer the 

question. The government alleges that the Holy Land 

Foundation charity distributed humanitarian aid in the 

form of food, helping build homes, toys, medicine -- and 

that aid actually went to the needy, actually went to the 

needy. But the government further alleges that that in 

some fashion benefited this terrorist organization. 

That's what they say. So my question is does that give 

you any pause or do you have any opinions about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: It makes me think it probably 

went over there, the money really did go to the needy over 

there. It throws a question up in my mind. 

MS. MORENO: When you say throws a question up 

in your mind, are you suspicious the money didn't go to 

the needy? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And having that idea in your mind, 

understanding that what we need in terms of jurors here 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

175

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
are people who have no opinions, have no prejudices, can 

you promise us that you can be fair and impartial and put 

aside those opinions or are those opinions, you know, 

strong? In other words, it would be difficult for you to 

put those opinions aside? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm not prejudiced, but it will 

be difficult for me to put those opinions aside. 

MS. MORENO: You sound like a lady who has 

strong opinions and is steadfast with them. Because of 

that, you couldn't really tell the Judge and the parties 

that you could put that aside and not consider that and be 

fair and impartial in this case. Is that right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Repeat the question one more 

time. 

MS. MORENO: I'm sorry. I don't mean to confuse 

you. Again, there aren't any right or wrong answers here. 

What we're looking for is jurors who don't have any biases 

or prejudices or opinions about the evidence or the 

evidence of this case. And you have expressed in hearing 

the charges some pretty definite opinions, and my question 

to you is I'm sensing that you could not put those 

opinions aside. Is that right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MS. MORENO: And because you cannot put those 

opinions aside, you could not fairly evaluate the evidence 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

176

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
in this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. After hearing that, 

correct. 

MS. MORENO: And because of those opinions, you 

cannot afford these gentlemen the presumption of innocence 

that they must have in this case, right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. Right now, yes. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you very much. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Roberson? 

MR. JACKS: Ms. Roberson, my name is Jim Jacks, 

and I'm one of the prosecutors on this case that will be 

representing the government. I have a few questions that 

I would like to ask you. You worked for Blue Cross Blue 

Shield. Is that right? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's right. 

MR. JACKS: Are they still located on Spring 

Valley? 

VENIRE PERSON: South Central. 

MR. JACKS: Is that the location you work at? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: How long have you worked for them? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fifteen years. 

MR. JACKS: As a financial coordinator, what do 

you do? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

177

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: We pursue refunds. When the 

doctor says we paid the incorrect provider, we go and sue 

that provider and get our money back. 

MR. JACKS: And one of the sheets I have -- just 

for your husband -- shows that he's a supervisor. Who 

does he work for? 

VENIRE PERSON: Aviall. 

MR. JACKS: I know I have heard that name, does 

that have to do with planes, airplanes? 

VENIRE PERSON: Airplanes. 

MR. JACKS: Is it at Love Field? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right by Love Field, yes. I'm 

sorry. DFW. 

MR. JACKS: What does he do for them? 

VENIRE PERSON: He's a supervisor. He's in 

shipping and receiving. He supervises a bunch of guys. 

When the army parts come in, he makes sure all the 

packages get to the right area. 

MR. JACKS: How long has he worked for them? 

VENIRE PERSON: Nineteen years. 

MR. JACKS: And I think you said that you have 

lived in the Dallas area for five years or you have lived 

in Rowlett for five years? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have lived in Rowlett for five 

years. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

178

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: How long in the Dallas area? 

VENIRE PERSON: Ten. 

MR. JACKS: Before that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I was in California. 

MR. JACKS: You were asked about your ability to 

be a fair and impartial juror, and you were asked about 

your opinions, and it wasn't clear to me what opinions Ms. 

Moreno was referring to. Do you remember what she had 

asked you or what opinion you held that might affect -- 

VENIRE PERSON: When she was explaining about 

the government and how long -- about the money situation, 

that the gentlemen were being accused about sending the 

money over to the Holy Land, and they was saying the money 

was going to benefit -- I believe it was the money for 

food and clothing and things like that, and that's when 

that thought came to my mind was the money really going 

over there to benefit those types of individuals, was the 

money really going to be used for that. 

MR. JACKS: Let me ask you this and get your 

reaction or response to this question. Have you ever 

served on a criminal jury before? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I have not. 

MR. JACKS: In a trial when the evidence is 

concluded, when both sides have called all the witnesses 

and introduced all the documents that they want to 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

179

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
introduce, the Judge will read a document and tell the 

jury this is the law that applies to this case, and the 

jury gets a copy of that document so that they can look at 

it while they are deliberating. And essentially, the 

Judge tells you this is the statute, the United States 

Statute, that applies to this case that the charges are 

brought under, these are the definitions of words that are 

contained in those statutes. He would define what is 

meant by material support, what is meant by a foreign 

terrorist organization. He would explain all of that to 

the jury, and then the jury applies -- They look at the 

evidence and say, okay, has this fact been proven in the 

trial, and that's how they arrive at their verdict. So he 

would tell you what the law is as it pertains to -- when a 

person is accused of providing material support to 

terrorism. One of the things that I am anticipating that 

will be in those charges, part of the law that he would 

tell to the jury, is that if money is provided or actual 

materials like books, food or as I said just money, and 

that money is turned around and used to buy those things, 

things that otherwise would be referred to as humanitarian 

things, if that is done for the benefit of a foreign 

terrorist organization, that's still a violation of the 

law. 

Now, with that explanation and if the Judge 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

180

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
tells you that which I anticipate he would in his jury 

instructions, is that something -- Do you understand that 

part of the law and could you follow that part of the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: I could follow the law. If the 

Judge explain it to us, I could follow it. 

MR. JACKS: So even if the evidence showed that 

every nickel that went over there went for something like 

books and money for a hospital but it was done in the name 

of or to benefit a terrorist organization and the Judge 

said if you find that to be true, then there has been a 

violation of that law, even if that was what the evidence 

showed, could you still return a verdict accordingly? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I could. 

MR. JACKS: Is there any question about that in 

your mind? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: I think one of the questions that 

you were asked dealt with a hypothetical or speculation. 

My question to you is, will you render your verdict based 

upon the evidence you hear in this courtroom and not 

anything else outside? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Ms. Roberson, I apologize for 

mispronouncing your name earlier, and as you can probably 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

181

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
tell we are in the process of selecting the jurors who 

will hear this case. I anticipate that that process will 

take another day or two. So until you hear from us again, 

you should not discuss this case with anyone or allow 

anyone to discuss it with you, and you should not read or 

watch or listen to any media accounts about this case. 

Thank you, you may rejoin the others in the hall.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, at this time on behalf 

of the defense we move to strike Ms. Roberson for cause. 

It was clear that she said in a number of ways that she 

could not afford these gentlemen the presumption of 

innocence, that she could not set aside her opinions. She 

talked about how she was already suspicious about the 

money issues in this case. When the prosecutor got up to 

try to rehabilitate her, he never asked the 

presumption-of-innocence questions. So she never came 

back and assured everyone, which she must do, that she 

could afford the presumption of innocence in this case. I 

would cite Irvin vs. Dowd 366 F 2nd 717 and its progeny, 

Virgil vs. Dretke, 446 F 3d 598. It's a bedrock 

fundamental law that the presumption of innocence is 

unequivocal. 

THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Jacks, do you have a 

response? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I disagree that it was 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

182

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
so clear cut that she could not follow the Court's 

instructions, and I think the Court saw and heard her 

answer counsel's questions, and I think counsel kind of 

put words in her mouth, and I'm not sure it's that clear 

that she could not follow the Court's instructions and 

observe the notions of presumption of innocence and that 

type of thing. I don't believe she has shown that she 

could not follow the Court's instructions and be a fair 

and impartial juror. 

THE COURT: This is another one of those that I 

will take under advisement for the time being. 

Good afternoon, Mr. Milburn. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good afternoon. 

THE COURT: Counsel for parties have some 

questions they would like to ask you. 

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Milburn, how are you doing? 

VENIRE PERSON: Nervous. 

MR. WESTFALL: Try to relax. I'm going to talk 

to you a little bit. I'm Greg Westfall. I'm a criminal 

defense attorney. This is the government. I will talk to 

you a very few minutes, and then the government will, and 

then you will be out of here. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have never testified in court 

before? 

VENIRE PERSON: First time. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

183

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: You are technically not 

testifying now. You are just on the panel. 

VENIRE PERSON: First time. 

MR. WESTFALL: The case is United States versus 

the Holy Land Foundation, and it is a case where the 

government alleges that the Holy Land Foundation gave 

material support to HAMAS which is a foreign terrorist 

organization. Just telling you that, does that ring any 

bells? Have you heard of the case? 

VENIRE PERSON: I never paid attention pretty 

much to it. I heard some things a couple of years ago, 

but I didn't pay attention for details. It wasn't 

something that really interested me. 

MR. WESTFALL: So it doesn't ring a bell? 

VENIRE PERSON: Just went in one ear and out the 

other. 

MR. WESTFALL: Were you in the army? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. I was in the army. 

MR. WESTFALL: I saw PFC. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: How long ago was that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Eighteen years old. I didn't 

join on my own, but for family reasons. It's something I 

would rather be doing something else. Somebody giving me 

orders, that wasn't my thing. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

184

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: So what did you do in the army? 

VENIRE PERSON: I was a medical supply 

specialist. 

MR. WESTFALL: Were you overseas? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I never did go overseas. I 

was in San Antonio, but it wasn't my cup of tea. 

MR. WESTFALL: I understand that. Have you ever 

had any dealings at all with people of the Muslim faith? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have some friends of mine. I 

never had no problem with them. Not close friends, just 

people on the job. As long as you treat them like human 

beings, they treat me like a human being, and other than 

that I haven't had a problem. 

MR. WESTFALL: You haven't had a problem? 

VENIRE PERSON: Never had no problems because I 

treat somebody like the way I want to be treated. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have never been on a jury 

before? 

VENIRE PERSON: Never have, sir.

MR. WESTFALL: What do you know about HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's a foreign group overseas 

fighting Israel. It's more like revolutionary. 

MR. WESTFALL: How did you come to learn about 

HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: You can't help but see it on TV, 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

185

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
you know, but I believe in a sense there is two sides to 

every story. My opinion. Maybe these people, maybe if 

they had a place they could call home that would relief 

some of the pressure. But due to the fact of injustice, 

they don't have the same rights as other people. So these 

people just trying to obtain some form of peace through 

blood shed. That's just my opinion. 

MR. WESTFALL: Right. Sounds like you know 

something about it. This is a criminal trial, and in a 

criminal trial you know, the government has the burden of 

proof, and that's beyond a reasonable doubt. The way the 

material support of terrorism works out is even if 

somebody is giving benign things like bandages, medical 

supplies or food, even if they are benign items, if they 

are doing that with the intent to give material support to 

a foreign terrorist organization -- which is HAMAS is 

on -- and if they prove that, if the government proves 

that beyond a reasonable doubt, regardless of what they 

gave, if it's to the benefit of HAMAS, then the verdict is 

guilty, right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. I don't want to say 

nothing that will incriminate me. But I think like -- I 

don't know. Depend on which side you are on. You know as 

long as it's not weapons of mass destruction or something 

like that I feel like in a sense -- You know you look at 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

186

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
aiding some group. They help supporting and aiding, but 

it makes me feel like it's their family and brothers. I 

know it's not helping us, but I look at it in the sense 

that I try to be realistic. Maybe they had -- 

MR. WESTFALL: Let me interrupt you for a 

second. We're talking about your duty as a juror. As a 

juror if the government proves its case beyond a 

reasonable doubt, you have to convict. If the government 

fails to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, then 

the law says you have to acquit, and that's basically the 

scope of your duty. The law says it doesn't have to be 

guns. It can be benign. But if it helps HAMAS and they 

prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, you would have to 

vote guilty. 

VENIRE PERSON: I agree with that. You still 

breaking the law. Even if it's ten percent, you are part 

of the organization even ten percent, you are part of the 

organization. I realize that. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you wouldn't have no problem 

following that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't have a problem because 

one percent still represents the whole. I realize that. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you very much. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Mr. Milburn? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

187

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Good afternoon, Mr. Milburn. My 

name is Jim Jacks. I'm one of the prosecutors in this 

case. I agree with Mr. Westfall. It sounds like you have 

given some thought to the situation in the Middle East. 

Is that a fair statement? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And it sounds like you believe that 

there are certain positions that perhaps the United States 

Government has taken that you disagree with. Is that 

true? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's true. 

MR. JACKS: For example, the United States 

Government has determined that HAMAS is a terrorist 

organization, and that determination is made by either the 

Secretary of State or someone such as that, Department of 

the Treasury. Do you disagree with that policy or do you 

think that decision is contrary to the way you feel about 

HAMAS and what it's trying to do and its purposes? 

VENIRE PERSON: I feel like HAMAS is mainly 

revolting against what opposition they are facing. If 

they had the same freedom -- You've got to think about it. 

During the civil right movement -- I hate to go back 

there, but just imagine if blacks and stuff like that and 

the Jewish people during that time. I hate to say that. 

If they had guns, it probably be more like a revolution, 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

188

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
also. 

MR. JACKS: Is your answer then saying that you 

do not think the government should have declared HAMAS a 

terrorist organization, that they are more revolutionary? 

VENIRE PERSON: More revolutionary. 

MR. JACKS: I suspect the Judge will tell you 

that decision has been made. The U.S. Government, whether 

you or I agree with it or not, that decision to determine 

that they are a terrorist organization has been made. If 

the Judge tells you that's the law, would that affect your 

ability to be a fair juror in this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't have a problem with it. 

I just feel like that they are probably a revolutionary 

group, but there are other ways to solve problems other 

than blood shed. 

MR. JACKS: Let me give you another example, and 

I think Mr. Westfall touched on this a little bit. At the 

end of the evidence the Judge is going to read the jury 

instructions to the jury and tell you what the law is. 

And he would tell you this is what the government must 

show to prove that somebody violated this law, and I 

expect to be included in those instructions and the Judge 

to tell you that the law says even if a person gives 

humanitarian things to this organization, to HAMAS or 

gives money, currency and then that money is spent on 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

189

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
humanitarian things, that's against the law. Could you 

abide by that instruction? Do you think that should be 

the law?

VENIRE PERSON: I think in a way -- I understand 

exactly what you are saying, and I understand the 

question, but one thing about it, if you think about it, 

if this money was given to another party other than maybe 

the Palestinians, would that be wrong for them doing that? 

If they were giving to some other organization or aid 

somewhere else. 

MR. JACKS: Well, I understand your question. 

My question is, if the Judge tells you that even 

humanitarian aid, you know, diapers and baby formula, and 

if it's given for the benefit of HAMAS, that's a violation 

of law, could you abide by that? Could you find somebody 

guilty if they had done that? 

VENIRE PERSON: If it was just diapers, I 

couldn't find them guilty. I'm being honest with myself. 

It's not something that's going to kill people. If it's 

something that's harmful toward humankind, man, they are 

guilty, talking about destroying life, but if it's just 

diapers and food, kids hungry, you think about it. Those 

people have sanctions. One thing about it through 

sanctions they are not able to be given medical supplies 

and stuff like that due to the war sanctions, and I feel 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

190

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
like it's not the children. It's the adults, and I feel 

like the children should have diapers and babies have baby 

food. Hey, it's not the children. It's the adults. I 

feel like it's a grown-up problem, and I feel like if 

those people had a homeland like I stated before, they 

probably have a whole different outlook. 

MR. JACKS: So in that circumstance you wouldn't 

be able to return a verdict of guilty? 

VENIRE PERSON: I couldn't say guilty. I'm 

being honest. 

MR. JACKS: I understand. Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Milburn, as you can tell, we're 

in the process of selecting a jury that would hear this 

case, and I anticipate that process will go on for at 

least another day or two, and until you hear from us 

again, you should not discuss this case with anyone or 

allow anyone to discuss it with you. Nor should you read 

or watch or listen to any media accounts about the case. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may rejoin the 

others in the hall.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, we would submit Mr. 

Milburn for cause in that his answers showed that he could 

not follow the Court's instructions and would not be able 

to follow them with regard to the law in this case. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

191

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
THE COURT: Mr. Westfall, do you have a position 

about that? 

MR. WESTFALL: I cannot, your Honor, in good 

faith argue against that. 

THE COURT: I will excuse Mr. Milburn for cause. 

Good afternoon Mr. Jackson. 

VENIRE PERSON: How are you doing. 

THE COURT: Fine, thank you. Counsel for the 

parties have some questions they would like to ask you.

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Jackson, how are you doing. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: I'm Greg Westfall, one of the 

defense lawyers in this case. I'll talk to you a few 

minutes, and then the government is talk to you a little 

bit. Okay? This is a criminal case, and it's the United 

States of America versus the Holy Land Foundation. Does 

that ring a bell at all with you? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: The allegation is that this was a 

Muslim charity here in Richardson, here in the area, and 

the government is accusing them of giving support to a 

foreign terrorist organization, HAMAS. Given that amount 

of information, do you recognize that from any media 

accounts or anything you have heard? 

VENIRE PERSON: I still don't know who they are.

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

192

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Well, now that you know what the 

charges are, what do you think? 

VENIRE PERSON: Sounds like it's pretty serious 

charges if it's true. 

MR. WESTFALL: Right. What do you know about 

HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: Who? 

MR. WESTFALL: HAMAS. 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you recognize the name at all? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: How do you feel about being a 

juror in a case that has anything whatsoever to do with 

terrorism? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't feel too comfortable 

with it. 

MR. WESTFALL: You don't feel too comfortable. 

What do you mean by that? 

VENIRE PERSON: What happens to me if somebody 

comes up to me and says that's what he did, oh, this is 

what we do. 

MR. WESTFALL: So retaliation, does that 

characterize what you are talking about? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you are worried that your 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

193

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
decision in this case could result in retaliation against 

the jury which would include you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you are not the only person 

that has said that. How long have you felt this way? 

VENIRE PERSON: I see what's going on as far as 

the world goes, and it's not too bright. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, you filled out the 

questionnaire two weeks ago. Did it strike you then that 

there might be retaliation against the jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. I figure if you are 

going to do something, might as well do it right. 

MR. WESTFALL: But as we sit here right now, the 

issue of retaliation is on your mind? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's on my mind now. 

MR. WESTFALL: This case would be about four 

months long or so. It may be a little less or maybe a 

little more, and day after day you would come in here and 

sit in the same room with the defendants, the government 

and everyone else, and then hopefully you would have to 

make your decision. The fear of retaliation is very real 

to you, it sounds like. 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: Would the fear of retaliation be 

something that might affect the way you look at the case? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

194

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Probably would. 

MR. WESTFALL: And the way that you give 

consideration to the evidence? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't think so. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, when you render a verdict 

at the end of the trial, that verdict has to be based on 

just the evidence. That's just out of fairness. That's 

the fair process. Okay? Only the evidence in this 

courtroom is what can be considered in reaching that 

verdict. Do you understand? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: It sounds to me though like the 

fear of retaliation is an issue with you. Would that 

affect your jury service? Would it be something that 

would be on your mind? 

VENIRE PERSON: It probably would. 

MR. WESTFALL: And something that may even from 

time to time distract you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: Sounds like it's something that's 

on your mind right now. 

VENIRE PERSON: Like I say, man, I knew it was 

serious. I didn't know it was this serious. This is not 

like who murdered who; this is serious. I look at it like 

that. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

195

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: Thank you very much. 

VENIRE PERSON: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Mr. Jackson? 

MR. JACKS: No, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jackson, as you can tell, we're 

in the process of selecting the jury that would hear this 

case. I expect this process to go on for another day or 

two at least. So until you hear from us again, you should 

not discuss this case with anyone or allow anyone to 

discuss it with you. Nor should you read or watch or 

listen to any media accounts about the case. Thank you. 

You may rejoin the others in the hall.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, we would submit Mr. 

Jackson for cause, fear of retaliation interfering with 

his ability to render a fair and impartial verdict. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you oppose that? 

MR. JACKS: No, your Honor. 

THE COURT: I will grant the motion to challenge 

Mr. Jackson for cause. 

Good afternoon, Mr. Henson. Counsel for the 

parties have some questions for you. Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Mr. Henson, how are you doing? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fine, how are you? 

MR. WESTFALL: My name is Greg Westfall. I'm 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

196

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
one of the defense lawyers in this case. I am going to 

speak to you for a few minutes, and then the government is 

perhaps going to speak to you. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: This case is called the United 

States versus the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and 

Development, and it is a case that involves allegations 

that an American Muslim charity -- that's the Holy Land 

Foundation -- that an American Muslim charity gave 

material support to a foreign terrorist organization, 

specifically HAMAS. Knowing that, after I told you that, 

does that ring a bell? Have you heard about it any time 

before today? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: So completely unfamiliar with the 

names, didn't hear them on the radio or anything else 

recently? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: How do you feel about the issue 

of being in a jury where it's a criminal case that has 

anything to do with terrorism? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, you have to do what you 

have to do as a citizen. I do what I have to do as a 

citizen. It has no bearings on Muslim on whoever it is.

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you. Do you understand 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

197

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
that I have to ask you these questions? 

VENIRE PERSON: Go ahead. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I do. 

MR. WESTFALL: Are you friendly with them? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I know a large variety of 

people in the field I works in. Everybody has the right 

to feel how they feel. So I know quite a few. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you had good experiences or 

bad experiences? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have a work relationship. 

MR. WESTFALL: Are you friendly or unfriendly? 

VENIRE PERSON: I'm friendly with anybody I 

meet. I have no reason not to. They gave me no reason to 

feel differently. I try not to judge people just because 

of their nationality. I'm a bus operator. So I see quite 

a few people a year. I cannot discriminate. I just look 

at people as people. 

MR. WESTFALL: You are a leader in your union? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I am. 

MR. WESTFALL: And are you a steward? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I am. 

MR. WESTFALL: And how long have you been a 

steward? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have been a steward for five 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

198

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
and a half years. 

MR. WESTFALL: Are you going to keep on doing it 

or -- 

VENIRE PERSON: I ran for another elected 

office, and I lost by seventeen votes, but right now what 

I'm doing is I just judge the situation for whatever it 

is, whatever it is, if it's in favor of the company or not 

in favor of the company. 

MR. WESTFALL: You haven't been on any juries 

before? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I haven't. 

MR. WESTFALL: In a criminal case in the United 

States, a person who's accused of a crime is presumed 

innocent. You know that? 

VENIRE PERSON: That should be in any case that 

you start in, until proven guilty. 

MR. WESTFALL: And then the burden of proof is 

beyond a reasonable doubt? 

VENIRE PERSON: It has to be. 

MR. WESTFALL: And you know that's the highest 

burden of proof? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's the same. It's a higher 

technique of what I deal with every day as a shop steward. 

Because I deal with a lot of times the person's 

livelihood. Their likelihood depends on the decision that 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

199

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
is made, and the decisions are made by facts. If the 

facts are there, you have them. If the facts are not 

there, we proceed on to the next step. 

MR. WESTFALL: So as a steward, do you actually 

monitor the disciplinary action against someone in the 

union? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I do. And if I feel it's 

too harsh, I must go to management and explain to them why 

I feel that way, and it's like anything else -- you have 

laws that govern, by laws and things that are govern as to 

how much it is.

MR. WESTFALL: It sounds like you like the 

responsibility. 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, sometimes after you are 

thrust into a position, you advance yourself, do what you 

have to do. 

MR. WESTFALL: Rise to the level? 

VENIRE PERSON: Just like you when you started 

your job, it might not have been something you really 

liked, but as you proceeded on, you did what you had to do 

to make the best assessment you could. 

MR. WESTFALL: Very true. Just out of 

curiosity, what did you do in the military? 

VENIRE PERSON: I was a cook. 

MR. WESTFALL: With the army? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

200

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: In Germany? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: How long ago was that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Nineteen -- I got out in 1977. 

Maybe 1975. 

MR. WESTFALL: I hate to say a long time ago 

because I remember those years, too. Thank you very much. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Mr. Henson? 

MR. JACKS: Good afternoon. My name is Jim 

Jacks. I'm one of the prosecutors representing the 

government in this case. I have a few questions for you 

as well that won't take but just a moment or two. When 

you were in the army what division or unit were you in? 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. When I come out of basic 

training, I went to 21st Cal which is a support unit for 

the 1st Calvary Armored Division. I was transferred to 

16th Armor which is an army unit under the direction of 

George Patton, Junior. We in turn went to Germany in 

1975. 

MR. JACKS: Were you ever stationed at Fort 

Hood? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I was. 

MR. JACKS: And how long was your army career? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

201

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Active duty three years, 

inactive three years, total six years. 

MR. JACKS: Do you still cook? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have no choice. 

MR. JACKS: Not unless it's for two hundred 

people or whatever? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, no, no.

MR. JACKS: And you have lived in Saint Louis 

and Shreveport? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, my mother lives in Saint 

Louis. 

MR. JACKS: I don't think I have who you work 

for? 

VENIRE PERSON: Greyhound Lines. 

MR. JACKS: How long have you worked for them? 

VENIRE PERSON: This is my nineteenth year. 

MR. JACKS: Has all of that been in Dallas? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Where else? 

VENIRE PERSON: I started working for Greyhound 

out of Saint Louis in 1989. 

MR. JACKS: And what union are you a member of? 

VENIRE PERSON: Amalgamated Transit, Local 1700. 

MR. JACKS: And in your work with the union, 

have you ever had to have any contact with the Department 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

202

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
of Labor or pension and welfare or pension and benefits or 

anything like that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I had some contact with the 

Department of Labor which was last year which was 

pertaining to the election itself and the way that the 

election was ran, because the election wasn't ran 

according to the bylaws. And by me being a person running 

in the election and we had one party had material that 

everyone else wasn't supplied with and I questioned the 

union about it, and I couldn't get a clear understanding. 

So I went to the Department of Labor. And they told me 

what to do, but I chose not to do it because of the 

financial burden it would place on the union. The union 

was already strapped because of misappropriation of the 

funds by the secretary. So I took the fall myself and 

say, you know, well, I just lost that one. 

MR. JACKS: Did the Department of Labor resolve 

it to your satisfaction or do as much as they could in 

your opinion? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, they gave me the 

information that I would need to pursue the situation if I 

was going to pursue it. But I in return addressed it 

would have been costly for the union. I in turn addressed 

it to which was the International Amalgamated Union, which 

I felt like them being the big brothers they should 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

203

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
overlook it because of them receiving some gains from the 

union dues that are being paid. I felt like they should 

look in the situation and address it so it wouldn't be a 

costly matter. 

MR. JACKS: Let me ask you some questions about 

this particular case that you are here for. Are you 

familiar the organization known as HAMAS? Have you heard 

of it? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I have not. 

MR. JACKS: Do you follow the news in terms of 

what's going on in the Middle East? 

VENIRE PERSON: Right now to be honest with you, 

I don't have time because of my work schedule. It's so 

unflexible (sic). Most of the times -- My day starts 

about twelve and ends at about three o'clock in the 

morning. I'm a sports fanatic which that's bad. I need 

to see more of the news you understand. But I don't do 

that, and I go from there to the sports channel. 

MR. JACKS: I don't mean to interrupt you, but I 

have a limited amount of time. I cannot remember if you 

in your earlier questions or in the earlier 

questionnaire -- did you make any statement about whether 

it would be a hardship for you to be on the jury for three 

or four months? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

204

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: You could serve on this jury if you 

were selected regardless of what's going on in your job? 

VENIRE PERSON: I do what I have to do. They 

understand. There is guidelines in place for jury duty 

and having to serve on jury duty. 

MR. JACKS: The Judge -- After the parties have 

rested their case, the judge will give you the 

instructions on the law that applies to the case, and for 

example, he will tell you what the law is as far as 

providing material support to a terrorist organization. I 

anticipate included in those instructions he would tell 

you that even if the person giving support -- if they are 

given money, for example, and that money is later spent 

for humanitarian items such as food, medical supplies, 

school supplies, books, money to support widows and 

orphans, even if that money is spent in that fashion, if 

it's spent for the benefit of the terrorist organization, 

that's a violation of the law. Now, having told you that, 

what is your reaction to that portion of the law? 

VENIRE PERSON: Exactly what I recently said. 

The burden of proof. You have to have the evidence. It's 

the same thing I do when I go to represent someone. If 

the proof is not there, you don't have it. If you got the 

proof there, then you make your call.

MR. JACKS: If the government proves that these 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

205

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
defendants sent money to a foreign terrorist organization 

and that money was spent for not bullets, not dynamite, 

not suicide vests but was spent for backpacks, soccer 

balls, bed pans for a hospital, syringes for a hospital, 

could you return a verdict of guilty on that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Sir, back to what I said, it's 

the intent. What was the intent to be done with it. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, your time is expired. 

Mr. Henson, as you can tell, we are in the process of 

selecting the jury to hear this case. But I expect that 

we will be at this process for at least another day or 

two. So until you hear from us again, you should not 

discuss this case with anyone or allow anyone to discuss 

it with you. Nor should you read or watch or listen to 

any media accounts about the case. Thank you and you may 

rejoin the others in the hall. 

Good afternoon, Ms. Johnson. Counsel for the 

parties have some questions to ask you. 

MR. WESTFALL: Good afternoon, Ms. Johnson. 

I'm Greg Westfall and I am a defense lawyer in this case. 

I'll speak with you a few minutes and then the government 

will speak to you. This is a case that the United States 

brought against Holy Land Foundation. It's a case that 

the government alleges that a charity association gave 

material support to a foreign terrorist organization. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

206

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Does that ring a bell? Have you heard it in the press or 

anything like that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: Tell us what you heard. 

VENIRE PERSON: I heard there was a church in 

Richardson or something like that was giving money to the 

Holy Land. I didn't really go into detail about it. They 

didn't. They were just speaking of it, and I was like 

what is that. 

MR. WESTFALL: How long ago is that that you 

heard this? 

VENIRE PERSON: Probably about three, four 

months ago. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you heard anything since 

then? 

VENIRE PERSON: I haven't. 

MR. WESTFALL: What you have heard so far from 

whatever source you heard it? I guess the radio or TV, 

right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Did you form any opinions as to 

the guilt or innocence of the defendants as a result of 

that? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

207

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: I haven't, no. 

MR. WESTFALL: How do you feel -- the prospect 

of being on a jury where the issues have anything to do 

with the terrorism. 

VENIRE PERSON: Not good.

MR. WESTFALL: Why? 

VENIRE PERSON: Because anything could happen. 

I have a family, and it's -- the fact of being on the jury 

has to do with other members of that family makes me 

nervous. 

MR. WESTFALL: Are you nervous because of some 

sort of retaliation? 

VENIRE PERSON: Could be, yes. Part of it. 

MR. WESTFALL: You said part of it. Is there 

any or part? 

VENIRE PERSON: Mainly the terrorist. 

MR. WESTFALL: Worried about being retaliated 

against? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's a major part of it. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, I want to talk to you a 

little bit about that, about the fear of retaliation. 

Okay? 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: When we seat a jury, the jury is 

going to have to decide whether the Government has proved 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

208

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and that decision has 

to be made only on the evidence in court, and there can't 

be any external influences or like pre-depositions. Some 

people have made up their mind already. But the issue of 

retaliation -- And you are not the only person who has 

talked about that. So don't worry about that, the fear of 

retaliation while we're in trial for several months. It 

may be four months, maybe less than, maybe more, but 

that's kind of what everyone is guessing right now. We're 

all going to be in the same room together day after day 

for four months. While we're doing that, is there going 

to be this niggling fear in your mind if you decide this 

case the wrong way your family may be hurt? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Is this the kind of fear that 

would distract you from doing your job as a juror? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: You feel pretty sure about that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Johnson? 

MR. JACKS: Just briefly, your Honor. 

Ms. Johnson, my name is Jim Jacks. I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney, and I'm one of 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

209

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
prosecutors in this case. I just have a couple of 

questions for you. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: I believe you indicated that you 

heard something about this case on the radio. Is that 

right? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I heard it on the news. 

MR. JACKS: Television? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: And at some point in time, did you 

connect that to the fact that this was the case you were 

summoned for? 

VENIRE PERSON: I didn't. 

MR. JACKS: You did? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I did not. 

MR. JACKS: The charges in the case are that 

this organization and these men that worked for this 

organization are accused of providing material support to 

HAMAS. Do you understand that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Have you ever heard of HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Do you even know what they are or 

where they are located? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

210

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: Is it your -- I guess not testimony 

because you are not really testifying, but is it your 

position that simply the fact that this case involves the 

allegations of people sending money or goods to support a 

terrorist organization is enough to prevent you from being 

a juror in this case? 

VENIRE PERSON: Could you repeat that? I'm 

sorry. 

MR. JACKS: Sure. Is what you are saying is 

just the fact that this is a case in which people are 

charged with supporting a terrorist organization, just the 

nature of that concerns you so much that you don't think 

you could pay attention to the evidence and render a 

verdict based on the evidence? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I would be nervous because 

I don't want to -- You know, it's my opinion and with the 

evidence that we have, the Court (sic) presents to the 

Court. But it would still be bothering me, knowing, yes, 

they were wrong or they were right and somebody is going 

to be put in jail or wherever they have to go. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, ma'am. 

THE COURT: Ms. Johnson, we are in the process 

of selecting the jury that would hear this case. I expect 

that that process will continue for at least another day 

or two. Until you hear from us again, you should not 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

211

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
discuss this case with anyone or permit anyone to discuss 

it with you. Nor should you read or watch or listen to 

any media accounts about the case. 

VENIRE PERSON: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Thank you, you may rejoin the others 

in the hall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, we challenge on the 

grounds that fear of retaliation will impair her jury 

service and not allow her to render a fair verdict based 

upon the evidence. 

THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: No, your Honor. 

THE COURT: I will grant the motion to excuse 

Ms. Johnson for cause. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I would ask and object 

to Mr. Westfall telling jurors that you are not the only 

one who has said that. I think that defeats the whole 

purpose of talking to these people individually. 

THE COURT: I agree. Mr. Kiblinger, I think 

we're ready to see next Ms. Mallory, Number 25 on the 

list. 

Good afternoon, Ms. Mallory. Counsel for the 

parties in this case have some questions they would like 

to ask you. Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: Ms. Mallory, my name is Greg 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

212

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
Westfall. I'm one of the defense lawyers in this case. I 

am going to speak with you for a few minutes, and the 

government is going to speak with you perhaps for a few 

minutes. Okay? This case is the United States versus the 

Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, and it is 

about an American Muslim charity that the government 

alleges gave material support to HAMAS which is a foreign 

terrorist organization. Having told you that, do you 

recognize the name or anything? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Tell me how. 

VENIRE PERSON: I just heard it on the news 

some. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you heard it recently? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. I don't know when, but I 

have heard it before. 

MR. WESTFALL: What was your -- What are your 

thoughts about it based upon what you heard? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't really know. 

MR. WESTFALL: I'm sorry. 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't really keep up with all 

of that kind of stuff. 

MR. WESTFALL: Did you arrive at any opinions 

based on what you heard? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

213

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. WESTFALL: How do you feel about being on a 

jury -- potentially being on a jury where the case is a 

criminal case, where the case has anything to do with 

terrorism? 

VENIRE PERSON: I would rather not be on a case. 

MR. WESTFALL: Any case period? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Is there anything about this 

case -- Let me ask you, are you afraid to be on jury? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you know any Muslims? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: You have never known any? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Have you had any dealings with 

people of Arab decent? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Where are you a nurse? 

VENIRE PERSON: At Tremont. 

MR. WESTFALL: What is that? 

VENIRE PERSON: It's a retirement center. 

MR. WESTFALL: How long have you been working 

there? 

VENIRE PERSON: About five years. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you like it? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

214

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you are kind of in the service 

world? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you do any other volunteer 

stuff? 

VENIRE PERSON: Same thing, like home health. 

MR. WESTFALL: So you do home health and your 

work at the --

VENIRE PERSON: At the nursing home. 

MR. WESTFALL: You work a lot? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: This trial could possibly go 

several months. Any problem with making ends meet if you 

are out of circulation that long? 

VENIRE PERSON: Probably so because I'm a single 

parent. 

MR. WESTFALL: How old is your child? 

VENIRE PERSON: Fourteen. 

MR. WESTFALL: But you still supervise him I 

guess? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: He or she? 

VENIRE PERSON: Boy. 

MR. WESTFALL: What is he doing during the 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

215

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
summer like today? 

VENIRE PERSON: He mostly stay at home. Doesn't 

do anything else. 

MR. WESTFALL: If you are in a trial that lasts 

as long as this one possibly could, three months, four 

months, five months -- No one knows for sure but the over 

and under is four months. Is that going to cause a 

hardship for you? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, because my job doesn't pay 

for it. 

MR. WESTFALL: Is that something that would 

impair your jury service? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, yes, because my job 

doesn't pay jury duty. 

MR. WESTFALL: You would just run out of money? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. I couldn't pay my bills. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you rent a house or an apt? 

VENIRE PERSON: I rent a condo, yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: And so you have to pay the rent 

each month? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Is there anyone else that 

supports you besides yourself? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I don't think I have 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

216

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
anything else. Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for 

Ms. Mallory? 

MR. JACKS: Just briefly, your Honor. Good 

afternoon, Ms. Mallory. 

VENIRE PERSON: Hello. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks, and I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas. I'm one 

of the prosecutors who will be representing the government 

in this case. I just have a few questions to ask you as 

well. You said you work at Tremont. It's a retirement 

facility? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Is it located on Harvest Hill? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: How long have you worked there? 

VENIRE PERSON: Five years. 

MR. JACKS: Have you done similar type of work? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: How long have you worked in that 

health care field? 

VENIRE PERSON: About twenty years. 

MR. JACKS: Has it always been at retirement 

facilities or have you worked at hospitals? 

VENIRE PERSON: Hospitals and retirement 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

217

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
centers. 

MR. JACKS: You have three sons; is that right? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Are all of them still at home or one 

or two? 

VENIRE PERSON: Just the one. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. You have never served on a 

jury before; is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I haven't. 

MR. JACKS: And if you were aware -- Are you 

aware that you will be paid for your jury service, forty 

something dollars a day? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Is that -- Does that help to 

alleviate your financial situation? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. It wouldn't help. 

MR. JACKS: If you were selected to be on this 

jury, would you be able to give your attention to the 

evidence and return a verdict based on the evidence that 

was presented? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Even if -- Well, let me ask you this 

question. Will your job still be there? I'm not sure how 

long this trial will last. I think all of us are going to 

try to make it go as quickly as we can. But do you know 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

218

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
if your job will still be there when you finish your jury 

service? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't know. 

MR. JACKS: Have you ever asked your employer? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well, no, but she told me they 

don't pay for it. That's all I know. 

MR. JACKS: And before coming down here today -- 

Well, let me ask you this question. Have you heard of the 

terrorist group HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. Just on TV and stuff. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know where they are located? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Have you followed any other, like, 

terrorism related cases in the news? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: If the Judge when he gives the jury 

the law -- And when I say that, I'm talking about at that 

point in the trial at the end of the trial after all of 

the parties have presented all the evidence that they want 

to present, the judge tells the jury this is the law that 

you have to apply to this case, and he would tell you what 

the law is on, for example, a charge of providing material 

support to a foreign terrorist organization. And he'll 

tell you what is the definition of a foreign terrorist 

organization and that type of thing. Part of the law that 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

219

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
he would give to the jury will be that if the evidence 

shows that the defendants -- not only if they gave money 

or simply materials, even if the materials or the money 

was spent on humanitarian items like diapers, food, 

clothing, books, medical supplies -- if it was spent with 

the intent to benefit this terrorist organization, even if 

that money was later spent for those types of items, that 

would still be a violation of the law. Now, having heard 

that, how do you feel about that aspect of the law? Do 

you agree or disagree with that? 

VENIRE PERSON: I agree with the law. 

MR. JACKS: So if the evidence showed that the 

only thing that was provided to this organization was not 

bullets or anything -- guns or anything like that but it 

was these types of so called humanitarian things, could 

you return a verdict of guilty if that's all the evidence 

showed? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MR. JACKS: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Ms. Mallory, we are in the process 

of selecting the jury that will hear this case. I 

anticipate that process of jury selection will continue 

for at least another day or two. Until you hear from us 

again, you should not discuss this case with anyone or 

allow anyone to discuss it with you, nor should you read 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

220

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
or watch or listen to any media accounts about the case. 

Thank you. You may rejoin the others in the hall. 

Mr. Westfall. 

MR. WESTFALL: It sounds like Ms. Mallory is 

going to suffer more of a hardship than she knows. She 

has demonstrated that she won't be able to give full 

consideration to the trial because of her significant 

financial issues. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, what is the government's 

position? 

MR. JACKS: Well, your Honor, I'm not sure 

that's clear. I understand what she's saying. But when 

you ask her point blank, could you pay attention and be a 

fair juror, she says yes. So I think this is one of those 

again where it's not a cause challenge, but one of those 

that the Court might just hold in abeyance and take under 

advisement. 

THE COURT: Yes, I don't have to make a decision 

about that now. So I think I will take that under 

advisement for the moment. 

Mr. Kiblinger, I think we're ready to see Mr. 

Cabrera next. 

Good afternoon. The parties to this case have 

some questions they would like to ask you. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

221

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MS. MORENO: Good afternoon. My name is Linda 

Moreno, and I represent one of the gentlemen here in this 

case. I want to ask you some questions about the 

questionnaire that you filled out several months ago. Do 

you remember doing that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I do. 

MS. MORENO: I'm going to ask you first if you 

have heard anything about this case. This is the case 

involving the Holy Land Foundation which is an American 

Muslim charity. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And I want to know if you have 

heard anything about this particular case or if the name 

rings a bell, if you have read anything in the newspapers 

or heard anything on the TV or radio. 

VENIRE PERSON: I know it was in the newspapers 

this morning. I didn't read it. I did hear about it in 

the news. I think it was yesterday or Sunday night I was 

watching the TV, and something came on about it. That's 

as far as I know. 

MS. MORENO: Is that the only time you recall 

hearing the name "Holy Land Foundation"? 

VENIRE PERSON: I remember it was a while back. 

It was a couple of years ago. I do remember that only 

because of what they said. Only because of the situation 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

222

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
I guess. 

MS. MORENO: This is a case that involves 

charges of terrorism. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And did you hear anything about the 

nature of the charges on the TV or the radio? 

VENIRE PERSON: All they said was like you said 

some kind of terrorist deal. Funding for the terrorists. 

That's all. 

MS. MORENO: Now, just hearing that, just 

hearing that description of the charges, is there anything 

about that description that makes you think I don't think 

I want to sit on this case or I have very strong opinions 

about these kinds of charges? 

VENIRE PERSON: To tell you the truth, not 

really. It doesn't bother me. I'm in the military right 

now so we deal with that. 

MS. MORENO: Well, when you say --

VENIRE PERSON: I myself. I'm in the army 

reserves, yes, ma'am. 

MS. MORENO: And you say we deal with that, what 

do you mean by that? 

VENIRE PERSON: Basically the army. What we're 

taught and stuff like that, you know. 

MS. MORENO: Were you in Iraq, sir? 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

223

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes, ma'am. I just got back in 

November. 

MS. MORENO: Where were you in Iraq? 

VENIRE PERSON: Nasiriah.

MS. MORENO: How long was your tour of duty? 

VENIRE PERSON: A year overseas. 

MS. MORENO: You are in the army reserves? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct. 

MS. MORENO: Did you see combat over there? 

VENIRE PERSON: Actually most of the time we was 

just getting mortared, and like, if we go on convoys, 

basically nothing happened to us. So that's pretty good, 

and that's about the only thing. 

MS. MORENO: Well, certainly your life was in 

danger? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, ma'am. 

MS. MORENO: And this case involves gentlemen 

who are of the Muslim faith. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And who are Palestinian. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And this is a time when there 

aren't any right or wrong answers, Mr. Cabrera. We just 

need to know how you feel in your heart, if this is a case 

you would be a fair and impartial juror on. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

224

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I understand. 

MS. MORENO: Now, I ask you, having really had 

this life-and-death experience in Iraq and dealing with 

persons over there who are Muslim and now you are in 

America in this courtroom having to decide a case that 

involves Muslims, Arabic men, what are your thoughts? Do 

you have any opinions? 

VENIRE PERSON: I don't have no opinions. I 

mean as far as a hatred towards them, I don't. I'm just 

glad to be back basically. Trying to get my life again. 

You know, that's it. What do you want me to say? Do I 

have hatred toward them? I don't. It's my job. Whatever 

happens. Just something happens.

MS. MORENO: Well, let me ask you this. Have 

you heard of the presumption of innocence? 

VENIRE PERSON: Well -- 

MS. MORENO: In criminal cases persons in this 

country who are charged with crimes are afforded certain 

Constitutional rights and protections. Okay?

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: And one of them is you are presumed 

innocent. 

VENIRE PERSON: Until guilty. 

MS. MORENO: Until the government proves its 

case beyond every reasonable doubt. That's presumption of 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

225

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
innocence. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: So given your experience and things 

that have happened to you, could you honestly say that you 

can afford these gentlemen the presumption of innocence or 

do you have hesitation? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I don't have no hesitation. 

Like you said, everybody is innocent until proven guilty. 

MS. MORENO: In this case, as I said -- And I'll 

explain the charge for you in a minute. 

VENIRE PERSON: Right. 

MS. MORENO: This is a terrorism-related charge, 

material support of a foreign terrorist organization, 

HAMAS? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: The government has the burden of 

proof. Do you think in this time in America in terrorism 

cases that the burden of proof should be less on the 

government because the charges are so serious? 

VENIRE PERSON: What do you mean by less? 

MS. MORENO: Well, the burden of proof 

ordinarily is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the 

standard. 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes. 

MS. MORENO: Do you think in a terrorism case 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

226

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
that burden should be less? 

VENIRE PERSON: Not really. 

MS. MORENO: Do you have any problem with that 

concept? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, I don't. 

MS. MORENO: In this case, the government 

alleges that the Holy Land Foundation sent humanitarian 

aid to Palestine -- and this aid was food, medicine, 

diapers, lollipops, books -- and that the Holy Land 

Foundation sent it to the needy and the children in the 

West Bank and Gaza. The government further alleges that 

that humanitarian aid that was sent benefited HAMAS. 

That's their allegation. That's what they say. 

VENIRE PERSON: Okay. 

MS. MORENO: Now, hearing those charges, does 

that cause you any concern? Do you have any opinions just 

hearing those kinds of charges? 

VENIRE PERSON: My concern is -- I mean are they 

really sending that? I have no idea. With the books or 

something, some kind of other deals of knowledge of the 

U.S., you know. I mean as far as you know some kind of 

ideas of what the U.S. has. Did they get the books or did 

they get something else besides the books? You know, 

yeah, you can -- It's like a front basically. What I'm 

trying to say, yes, this is just a front so it makes it 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

227

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
seem like they are getting lollipops or whatever. But if 

they are going to throw something else in there. That's 

how I see it. 

THE COURT: Ms. Moreno, your time has expired. 

VENIRE PERSON: Excuse me, sir. 

THE COURT: I was speaking to Ms. Moreno. 

Mr. Jacks, do you have questions for Mr. 

Cabrera? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor. Good afternoon. 

VENIRE PERSON: Good afternoon. 

MR. JACKS: My name is Jim Jacks. I'm an 

Assistant United States Attorney here in Dallas, and I'm 

one of the prosecutors representing the government in this 

case. I have just a few questions for you. I think first 

of all, all of us, everybody in this room, would like to 

thank you for your service. I think both sides of the bar 

would want to acknowledge that. 

Is what you are saying basically that if the 

army wanted you to have an opinion they would have issued 

you one? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: You when you are not working or on 

active duty, what kind of work do you do? 

VENIRE PERSON: I work for the school district. 

I work in a warehouse.

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

228

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: And what type of a warehouse is it? 

VENIRE PERSON: Basically we deal with 

maintenance, HBC, carpentry, plumbing, anything that deals 

with maintenance. 

MR. JACKS: And is this, for example, where 

these maintenance people need a part, they come to the 

warehouse to get the part to do whatever work that needs 

to be done at some school somewhere? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct. 

MR. JACKS: How long have you been there? 

VENIRE PERSON: I have been with the district 

for seventeen years.

MR. JACKS: How long have you been an army 

reservist? 

VENIRE PERSON: Three years, sir. 

MR. JACKS: And was there a period of time when 

you were on active duty? 

VENIRE PERSON: No, sir, straight into the 

reserves. 

MR. JACKS: What was your job in the army? 

VENIRE PERSON: My job basically when you go 

overseas, everything changes. My primary was MOS was 92 

Whiskey which was water purification. But during that 

time you could do a little bit of everything. Guard. 

Convoys. Just everything. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

229

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
MR. JACKS: All right. Do you know whether or 

not you are expected to return? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I do know. 

MR. JACKS: Do you know when that might be? 

VENIRE PERSON: 2008 is all I can say. 

MR. JACKS: You've not served on a criminal jury 

before; is that correct? 

VENIRE PERSON: That's correct. 

MR. JACKS: You grew up in Dallas? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, sir. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Cabrera, not having served on a 

trial jury before, at the conclusion of all the evidence, 

after both sides have presented all of the testimony and 

all the documents and before the final arguments or 

summations, if you will, the Judge will read his 

instructions or his charge to the jury which basically 

contains the law that applies to this case, and he would 

for example -- The charge of providing material support to 

a foreign terrorist organization, he would tell you what 

that statute is. And it will be included word for word in 

that charge. He would define words -- In other words, he 

would define what is meant by a foreign terrorist 

organization. As a part of that instruction, I anticipate 

that he would include the fact that the criminal law of 

the United States is that even if the material support -- 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

230

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
whether it's currency or actual goods and services, even 

if it's for so called humanitarian purposes, if it's books 

or if it's currency that is then later used to spend money 

on a hospital or something like that -- if it's provided 

for the benefit of a foreign terrorist organization, it's 

still a violation of the law. Having been told that, is 

there anything about that provision of the law that you 

disagree with or would not be able to follow? 

VENIRE PERSON: No. 

MR. JACKS: Okay. Thank you, sir. 

VENIRE PERSON: I got a question. I don't know 

if this is the last question. I don't know -- Let's say I 

get made for the jury and I get orders to go and train. 

Is this going to affect -- I mean is it going to put an 

affect on me or anything? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor -- 

THE COURT: I don't know that I know the answer 

to that either, Mr. Cabrera. That's something I guess 

we'll have to look into. Do you think it's a possibility 

that you will receive such orders? 

VENIRE PERSON: Yes, I do. It's annual 

training, two weeks to a month. I have no idea. 

THE COURT: Well, obviously you can't be in two 

places at the same time. So we do need to find out the 

answer to that. But thank you for raising the question. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

231

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
VENIRE PERSON: Thank you, sir. 

THE COURT: Mr. Cabrera, as you can tell, we're 

in the process of selecting the jury that would hear this 

case. I expect that process will continue for at least 

another day or two. So until you hear back from us again, 

you should not discuss this case with anyone or allow 

anyone to discuss it with you, and you should also not 

read or watch or listen to any media accounts about the 

case, if there are any. Thank you, sir, you may leave us 

and go to the hall.

MS. MORENO: The defense has a concern obviously 

that Mr. Cabrera's receiving orders may come at any time, 

and so I would raise this serious consideration to the 

Court. I think he indicated that he would receive orders, 

and this would be either two weeks to a month in training. 

Additionally, your Honor, I would also raise a 

cause challenge to Mr. Cabrera. He volunteered his 

opinion after I described to him what the allegations were 

by the government, that this was really a front, that -- I 

think his words were this is some kind of deal, would they 

be getting books or something else, are they really 

sending that, this is just a front. So I would move a 

cause challenge for Mr. Cabrera and raise the hardship 

issue as well. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, do you have a position 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

232

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
about that? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, your Honor, I don't believe 

there is anything that merits this juror being excused for 

cause. In terms of whether a problem later arises 

regarding orders that he might receive, that's total 

speculation as far as if and when that might happen. 

Secondly regarding his answer, I do not believe 

that that statement that he made in any way goes to show 

that he would be disqualified. He made very clear that he 

would listen to the evidence and follow the Court's 

instructions and the law. So I don't believe that any 

answer he has given is one that would merit him being 

excused for cause. 

THE COURT: I will deny the motion to excuse 

Mr. Cabrera for cause. And I will simply take note for 

the moment of his concern that he might receive orders for 

annual training with his military unit. That's something 

that I think I need to look into, but I don't think I need 

to take action on it today. 

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'd like to -- Mr. Cabrera 

will be the last member of venire that we can question 

today because of the hour. But I'd like to go back and 

just review where I think we are in this process so that 

we're all on the same page so to speak. 

I have excused some of the ones that we have 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

233

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
questioned today already for cause; namely, Mr. Mosty, 

Number 11; Ms. Ho, Number 17; Mr. Milburn, Number 21; Mr. 

Jackson, Number 22; and Ms. Johnson, Number 24. 

There are still pending challenges for cause to 

Number 3, Ms. Pritchard; Number 8, Ms. Smith; Number 18, 

Mr. Smith; Number 20, Ms. Roberson. And then there are a 

few instances where counsel have raised the question of 

whether I should exercise my discretion to excuse for 

hardship, and that's Number 12, Mr. Perry, who's currently 

unemployed; Ms. Mallory, Number 25, who's employed at 

Tremont Retirement Center, and I suppose in that same 

category would be Mr. Cabrera in the event he receives 

these orders for annual training. Did I misstate any of 

those?

MS. MORENO: We would agree, your Honor. 

THE COURT: Counsel, I wanted to provide to you 

some information that I received from the jury 

administrator. Number 28 who was a no-show today, Mr. 

Griffin, has been released by the jury administrator. She 

says that they found out that he resides in Collin County, 

although his jury information shows Dallas County, Texas, 

but the post office shows Collin County, and that's in the 

Eastern Direct of Texas rather than the Northern District. 

So he would not be eligible to serve. 

Mr. Brownell, would have been on the list for 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

234

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
tomorrow, July 17, but Mr. Brownell is in the hospital 

today and may be released tomorrow, and he requested an 

excuse and stated he is seventy-one years old and said he 

was not going to submit any additional information. So 

the jury administrator excused him on the basis of the 

information that he has already provided. And Juror 

Number 02-0391, Hobbs, called and stated he needed to go 

out of town to be with his son who's having eye surgery. 

He can be back and report on Thursday, the 19th, which may 

be the day he is to report in anyway. 

Ladies and Gentlemen, I wanted to commend 

counsel for the way the questioning went today. We didn't 

do as well as I had hoped in my best case scenario, but we 

also exceeded what I feared in the worst case scenario. I 

think we did make reasonable progress today. I do hope 

that tomorrow morning we can all be in place exactly at 

nine and can begin on time. We were a bit late getting 

started this morning, and I admit I was probably as much 

at fault as anyone else for that, and so we lost half an 

hour potentially at the beginning of the day today. But I 

think if we can get started at nine tomorrow, that we can 

make good progress again tomorrow. 

Is there anything else that we need to cover 

while we're all together this afternoon? 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, just a clarification. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

235

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00

18:00
You had mentioned last week what would happen if we had 

jurors left over at the end of the day. So am I guessing 

correctly that we're starting with Mr. Lennie Denton in 

the morning? 

THE COURT: I told Ms. Hudson who transmitted 

this information to the jury administrator that they 

should begin with the people at the place we left off 

today as the first group summoned tomorrow and to summon 

an additional number to equal approximately forty people. 

So I think that's what we will do. We'll be in recess 

until nine o'clock tomorrow morning. 

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

236

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

18:00
C E R T I F I C A T I O N

I, Cassidi L. Casey, certify that during the 

proceedings of the foregoing-styled and -numbered cause, I 

was the official reporter and took in stenotypy such 

proceedings and have transcribed the same as shown by the 

above and foregoing pages 1 through 237 and that said 

transcript is true and correct.

I further certify that the transcript fees and format 

comply with those prescribed by the court and the Judicial 

Conference of the United States.

s/Cassidi L. Casey

_____________________________

CASSIDI L. CASEY

UNITED STATES DISTRICT REPORTER

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

CSR NUMBER 1703

CASSIDI L. CASEY, CSR, 214-354-3139

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

237

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
< A >

Abdulqader 2:12, 33:13

abeyance 221:16

abide 70:6, 77:19, 91:9, 

91:15, 138:18, 190:2, 190:15

Abilene 169:14

ability 18:24, 36:24, 38:2, 

46:8, 97:11, 99:14, 179:5, 

189:11, 196:16

able 7:5, 14:15, 19:5, 59:15, 

60:2, 110:18, 130:5, 148:22, 

148:23, 172:16, 190:24, 

191:8, 191:24, 218:18, 221:6, 

231:8

above 58:21, 117:13, 238:9

Absolutely 29:15, 32:18, 

65:18, 88:3

Abu 1:40

abuse 21:4, 21:5

Abused 157:1, 157:2

academy 21:24

accept 90:25, 91:2

accepting 9:4, 22:23

accessories 49:11

according 203:7

accordingly 167:5, 181:12

accounts 6:16, 54:8, 101:8, 

112:18, 120:7, 129:20, 

139:17, 147:13, 150:10, 

173:1, 182:6, 191:18, 192:24, 

196:12, 206:15, 212:3, 221:1, 

232:8

accurate 136:4

accusations 43:18, 61:1

accused 6:9, 6:25, 9:18, 

23:3, 25:13, 25:13, 34:9, 

51:9, 70:4, 120:20, 151:15, 

179:12, 180:15, 199:13, 

210:18

accusing 134:8, 192:21

acknowledge 228:17

acquit 153:18, 187:10

acronyms 79:13

across 53:8, 160:17

act 166:17

action 200:5, 233:19

Active 58:16, 129:1, 145:9, 

145:10, 202:1, 228:23, 

229:17

acts 105:2

actual 180:18, 231:1

Actually 16:18, 16:20, 17:4, 

30:10, 34:23, 44:16, 53:12, 

91:23, 102:25, 175:12, 

175:12, 200:4, 224:10

Adams 109:1

added 72:5

Addison 47:15

addition 142:14, 146:15, 

155:3

additional 151:16, 235:4, 

236:9

Additionally 232:16

address 24:23, 103:20, 

117:11, 204:3

addressed 203:22, 203:23

administer 3:9

administered 3:10

administrative 155:3

administrator 112:22, 

234:18, 234:19, 235:5, 236:6

admit 71:24, 235:18

admitted 46:1

adolescent 123:9

Adriene 237:28

adult 169:7

adults 115:6, 191:1, 191:3

advance 200:15

advised 21:7, 127:19

advisement 24:13, 72:18, 

161:1, 183:11, 221:17, 

221:20

Advocacy 16:25

affect 18:23, 36:24, 44:12, 

75:2, 96:23, 97:1, 99:14, 

101:24, 179:9, 189:10, 

194:25, 195:14, 231:14, 

231:15

affecting 19:19

afford 65:18, 71:24, 177:5, 

182:11, 182:18, 226:5

afforded 85:25, 105:15, 

225:18

afraid 95:13, 214:9

Africa 53:8

After 4:13, 8:20, 13:25, 

16:13, 20:13, 20:14, 21:11, 

23:5, 32:10, 34:5, 34:6, 

42:13, 42:14, 50:2, 58:25, 

80:16, 84:1, 92:6, 92:11, 

108:14, 111:14, 112:21, 

119:20, 119:22, 121:3, 121:6, 

128:6, 137:15, 150:24, 

161:19, 171:14, 177:2, 

194:18, 197:11, 200:14, 

205:6, 209:10, 219:18, 

230:13, 232:18

Afternoon 102:13, 107:24, 

113:10, 117:9, 117:10, 120:9, 

124:17, 124:18, 129:22, 

129:23, 134:13, 139:23, 

147:15, 147:18, 151:4, 

155:23, 161:5, 168:1, 173:4, 

173:8, 183:12, 183:13, 188:1, 

192:6, 196:21, 201:11, 

206:17, 206:19, 212:22, 

217:5, 221:23, 222:1, 228:9, 

228:10, 235:24

Again 41:17, 129:17, 147:10, 

172:23, 176:16, 182:3, 

191:16, 196:9, 206:12, 

211:25, 220:24, 221:15, 

225:10, 232:5, 235:22

Against 14:14, 23:13, 27:22, 

27:24, 43:1, 50:18, 61:1, 

71:21, 81:9, 86:14, 86:25, 

87:6, 91:7, 92:24, 99:10, 

100:21, 105:21, 112:3, 142:8, 

146:23, 153:8, 159:3, 165:1, 

165:3, 171:10, 188:20, 190:1, 

192:4, 194:1, 194:10, 200:5, 

206:23, 208:18

age 11:1, 127:5, 127:8

age-wise 122:6

agency 16:19, 16:24, 17:5, 

20:20, 48:22

agent 47:8, 48:25

ago 26:2, 36:2, 40:10, 60:23, 

61:18, 61:21, 80:8, 82:8, 

82:24, 94:3, 103:1, 104:3, 

113:18, 114:3, 135:23, 

136:18, 144:21, 144:24, 

147:22, 149:21, 157:12, 

173:11, 184:11, 184:21, 

194:9, 201:4, 201:7, 207:12, 

207:15, 222:4, 222:24

agree 38:21, 39:10, 39:11, 

69:13, 69:16, 70:1, 128:23, 

133:12, 146:25, 159:7, 

187:15, 188:3, 189:8, 212:19, 
220:10, 220:11, 234:15

ahead 39:3, 108:4, 198:2

aid 9:1, 14:12, 14:14, 23:9, 

23:11, 34:12, 39:14, 39:19, 

42:21, 50:16, 59:10, 63:16, 

63:18, 76:16, 77:24, 81:6, 

81:16, 82:8, 85:11, 85:14, 

85:15, 92:19, 92:22, 159:1, 

160:20, 174:17, 174:19, 

175:10, 175:12, 190:9, 

190:13, 227:8, 227:8, 227:12

aiding 187:1, 187:1

Air 118:12, 119:4

Airplanes 178:9, 178:10

AL 1:13

Albuquerque 1:48

alerted 113:5

allegation 77:17, 140:10, 

174:21, 192:19, 227:13

allegations 30:13, 73:12, 

77:6, 85:22, 103:8, 105:1, 

130:10, 197:7, 211:4, 232:18

allege 39:16

alleged 86:5, 91:24

alleges 39:13, 63:10, 63:14, 

85:5, 85:10, 85:15, 161:17, 

174:11, 174:20, 175:9, 

175:13, 184:6, 206:24, 213:7, 

227:7, 227:11

alleviate 218:15

allow 129:18, 139:16, 

147:11, 150:8, 160:8, 172:24, 

182:4, 191:17, 196:10, 

206:13, 212:9, 220:25, 232:6

allowed 55:19, 153:7

almost 20:10, 31:18, 54:1

alone 96:22, 153:18

along 148:15

already 61:25, 87:9, 113:1, 

152:21, 182:13, 203:14, 

209:4, 234:1, 235:6

also 8:3, 27:1, 39:9, 40:10, 

56:19, 59:8, 74:14, 82:9, 

88:17, 89:3, 91:17, 101:18, 

115:16, 134:19, 144:14, 

158:22, 169:17, 189:1, 232:7, 

232:16, 235:14

Although 71:23, 105:6, 

234:21

Alvin 237:22

always 67:11, 89:13, 142:15, 

156:8, 217:23

am 24:12, 24:24, 26:18, 33:5, 

82:22, 101:7, 102:9, 113:17, 

119:5, 130:5, 130:6, 147:24, 

180:16, 197:1, 198:20, 

198:22, 206:20, 213:2, 236:2

Amalgamated 202:23, 

203:24

amateur 22:12

Amendment 18:3, 153:1, 

153:2

America 1:7, 55:9, 55:10, 

192:16, 225:5, 226:17

American 36:12, 61:1, 65:12, 

83:6, 85:5, 104:13, 113:24, 

140:12, 151:14, 152:20, 

161:18, 173:19, 197:8, 197:9, 

213:6, 222:9

American-muslim 130:12

Americanized 104:11

Americans 55:8

among 111:22, 160:6

amount 57:19, 192:22, 

204:20

Anca 237:12

angle 84:12, 86:9

annual 54:1, 231:21, 233:17, 

234:13

Another 10:17, 13:9, 38:22, 

40:10, 51:17, 57:2, 57:4, 

72:5, 77:2, 77:7, 91:17, 

106:1, 136:8, 153:12, 160:25, 

166:22, 172:22, 182:3, 

183:10, 189:16, 190:7, 

191:15, 196:8, 199:4, 206:11, 

211:24, 220:23, 232:5

Answer 23:25, 39:4, 60:12, 

62:13, 62:15, 62:19, 87:11, 

90:25, 97:17, 98:16, 98:17, 

99:4, 100:13, 107:18, 114:19, 

114:19, 138:12, 138:24, 

139:10, 160:2, 175:8, 183:3, 

189:2, 231:17, 231:25, 233:7, 

233:12

answered 28:18, 28:24, 

69:6, 83:2, 87:9, 87:10, 

100:18, 138:23, 172:1

answers 12:25, 66:6, 87:3, 

90:8, 159:23, 173:10, 173:15, 

176:16, 191:23, 224:23

anticipate 34:7, 50:12, 81:1, 

146:16, 158:18, 158:21, 

172:1, 181:1, 182:2, 191:14, 

205:11, 220:22, 230:23

anticipating 180:16

Antonio 185:6

anxiety 95:19

Anybody 70:22, 85:2, 106:8, 

133:25, 134:5, 141:15, 

142:23, 198:13

anymore 33:7

Anyone 15:25, 15:25, 77:12, 

112:18, 120:6, 129:18, 

129:18, 132:16, 139:16, 

139:16, 147:11, 147:12, 

150:8, 150:8, 152:20, 153:13, 

154:1, 160:8, 160:8, 169:24, 

172:24, 172:24, 182:4, 182:5, 

191:16, 191:17, 196:10, 

196:10, 206:13, 206:13, 

212:1, 212:1, 216:22, 220:24, 

220:25, 232:6, 232:7, 235:19

anyway 235:10

anywhere 31:16, 41:1, 

142:24

apologize 181:24

apparently 72:1, 99:20

appears 82:5

applied 23:20, 146:10, 

171:20

applies 59:3, 80:21, 92:12, 

111:16, 158:13, 180:2, 180:6, 

180:11, 205:8, 230:17

apply 23:8, 50:6, 56:1, 59:4, 

70:1, 92:13, 128:11, 137:19, 

138:18, 152:19, 219:21

appreciate 65:9

apprehension 84:3, 84:20

approach 93:9

approve 70:25

Approximately 8:10, 115:1, 

117:21, 236:9

apt 216:17

Arab 55:17, 55:17, 76:7, 

94:18, 214:16

Arabia 27:2

Arabic 138:22, 138:25, 

141:15, 225:6

Arabs 154:7, 164:4
Arce 139:24, 139:25, 140:3, 

143:17, 143:18, 147:5, 

237:24

architect 126:14

area 31:21, 41:4, 82:11, 

82:13, 94:20, 103:20, 103:22, 

109:12, 109:14, 109:24, 

117:19, 117:23, 134:23, 

135:16, 144:1, 149:7, 157:14, 

169:7, 169:16, 175:5, 178:18, 

178:22, 179:1, 192:20

areas 76:18

aren't 11:21, 105:25, 176:16, 

224:23

argue 192:4

arguments 92:8, 171:18, 

230:14

arises 233:4

Arkansas 10:10, 13:4

Armor 201:19

Armored 201:18

Army 58:14, 58:18, 64:5, 

64:9, 64:12, 156:23, 178:17, 

184:17, 184:18, 185:1, 

200:25, 201:15, 201:19, 

201:25, 223:19, 223:23, 

224:7, 228:19, 229:13, 

229:20

around 15:22, 68:9, 68:9, 

180:20

arrested 44:4

arrests 140:20

Arrika 237:32

arrive 180:13, 213:23

arrows 125:24

article 130:22

articles 62:5

arts 67:5

aside 56:21, 68:14, 176:3, 

176:5, 176:7, 176:11, 176:22, 

176:25, 182:12

asked 18:22, 22:20, 30:25, 

56:20, 59:21, 70:14, 76:1, 

83:2, 86:12, 133:5, 134:20, 

135:18, 138:22, 150:22, 

160:22, 165:24, 168:6, 179:5, 

179:6, 179:9, 181:18, 182:15, 

219:4

asking 55:7, 62:3, 67:17, 

171:4

aspect 9:5, 14:19, 172:14, 

172:16, 220:9

assembled 37:18

assess 99:1

assessment 200:21

assist 85:13, 110:13

Assistant 1:31, 7:22, 12:10, 

18:20, 31:8, 40:8, 48:11, 

56:17, 66:4, 78:10, 88:15, 

97:25, 107:25, 124:20, 

134:16, 149:5, 155:24, 

156:10, 168:2, 168:19, 

168:22, 168:23, 209:25, 

217:8, 228:12

associate 79:25

associates 7:10

association 206:24

assume 8:8, 90:24, 105:8, 

105:10, 138:10, 138:14

assured 182:17

asthma 74:14, 75:5

athletes 163:16

athletic 172:8

attend 169:13

attended 58:6, 169:12

attending 42:1

attention 104:20, 110:18, 

141:1, 184:10, 184:12, 

211:13, 218:18, 221:13

Attorney 1:31, 7:23, 12:10, 

18:21, 31:9, 40:8, 48:11, 

56:17, 60:21, 66:4, 78:10, 

88:15, 97:25, 108:1, 124:20, 

134:16, 149:5, 155:25, 168:3, 

169:25, 169:25, 170:3, 

183:20, 209:25, 217:8, 

228:12

attorneys 51:6, 173:9

attributes 104:10, 104:13

automobile 57:1

automotive 40:17

available 4:6

Avenue 2:17, 2:35

average 58:21

Aviall 178:7

aware 22:15, 22:16, 36:18, 

76:5, 76:12, 98:25, 138:11, 

138:14, 218:10, 218:11

away 33:10, 35:13, 41:18, 

62:6, 95:12, 102:19, 169:20

< B >

babies 191:2

baby 190:13, 191:2

Baccus 43:13, 48:6, 48:8, 

50:24, 237:14

back 13:3, 13:5, 27:18, 44:4, 

47:25, 67:15, 72:20, 83:15, 

83:15, 93:16, 104:3, 125:24, 

143:24, 178:3, 182:17, 

188:22, 206:6, 222:23, 224:1, 

225:10, 232:5, 233:22, 235:9

background 21:17, 76:2, 

82:6, 90:14, 119:10

backpacks 14:13, 42:23, 

50:16, 59:11, 81:8, 92:23, 

128:18, 138:7, 158:24, 

174:19, 206:3

bad 7:12, 11:8, 11:9, 11:14, 

11:16, 11:22, 76:7, 76:9, 

104:5, 133:20, 141:20, 

141:21, 198:10, 204:16

Baker 1:40

balancing 14:1

balls 9:2, 14:13, 34:14, 

50:16, 59:12, 128:18, 158:25, 

206:4

bandages 186:13

Bank 13:19, 13:19, 13:22, 

39:16, 85:17, 94:18, 96:6, 

227:11

banking 90:12

Baptist 123:2, 129:4, 154:17, 

162:20

bar 228:16

BARRY 1:28

base 78:24

Based 7:5, 9:25, 10:14, 26:4, 

26:11, 28:15, 30:11, 44:1, 

46:9, 62:10, 70:18, 75:12, 

95:1, 97:9, 97:12, 109:2, 

109:4, 121:19, 123:14, 174:4, 

181:19, 195:6, 211:14, 212:9, 

213:18, 213:24, 218:19

basic 201:16

Basically 49:9, 49:10, 50:5, 

81:16, 92:11, 144:2, 146:9, 

158:13, 162:8, 167:1, 187:10, 

223:23, 224:12, 225:10, 
227:24, 228:18, 229:2, 

229:21, 230:16

basis 54:1, 235:5

bathroom 150:23

Baylor 41:20, 41:23, 131:11

beard 104:14

bearings 197:24

bears 77:3, 77:4

became 48:24, 119:20, 

156:10

become 32:8

bed 83:11, 206:4

Bedford 118:17

bedrock 182:20

begin 3:4, 74:7, 235:17, 

236:7

beginning 44:20, 114:6, 

144:23, 235:20

begins 77:8

behalf 86:13, 86:25, 182:8

beings 65:4, 117:3, 185:12

belief 98:6, 134:6, 134:9, 

154:11

beliefs 59:22

believe 12:25, 19:15, 20:20, 

33:12, 39:18, 43:4, 68:12, 

69:7, 69:13, 72:15, 87:8, 

87:10, 91:25, 93:5, 96:18, 

98:12, 102:6, 108:8, 109:22, 

113:2, 117:20, 118:2, 119:19, 

122:16, 127:19, 133:1, 133:5, 

136:18, 141:11, 158:20, 

179:14, 183:7, 186:1, 188:7, 

210:4, 233:2, 233:7, 233:11

Bell 6:11, 25:15, 57:9, 

151:17, 184:14, 192:17, 

197:12, 207:1, 222:14

bells 9:20, 16:11, 36:14, 

43:20, 51:12, 73:15, 93:24, 

103:11, 140:15, 161:20, 

184:9

belonging 89:25

bench 93:10

benefit 11:3, 42:25, 50:17, 

59:13, 81:10, 92:20, 146:22, 

159:3, 172:12, 175:4, 179:14, 

179:17, 180:22, 181:9, 

186:19, 190:14, 205:17, 

220:6, 231:5

benefited 63:17, 85:18, 

174:20, 175:2, 175:14, 

227:12

benefits 203:1

benign 186:13, 186:14, 

187:12

besides 216:23, 227:23

best 5:2, 55:11, 61:19, 

200:21, 235:13

bet 152:21

better 86:23

biased 95:8

biases 62:16, 62:17, 176:17

big 126:16, 148:5, 174:4, 

203:25

bilingual 38:18

Billie 237:16

bills 216:16

bit 23:19, 24:1, 25:3, 53:8, 

53:21, 55:24, 57:17, 60:12, 

64:25, 67:16, 96:1, 97:14, 

110:4, 121:5, 130:7, 130:8, 

132:9, 140:6, 140:7, 147:25, 

183:19, 189:17, 192:15, 

208:21, 229:24, 235:17

blacks 188:23

blank 221:13

blankets 105:3

blood 19:1, 186:7, 189:15

Blot 126:14

Blue 177:14, 177:14

Bobbitt 82:19, 88:13, 88:14, 

93:7, 237:18

body 115:12

bomb 44:17

books 9:1, 54:23, 59:10, 

63:18, 81:8, 85:12, 92:23, 

112:2, 128:18, 138:6, 146:20, 

158:25, 172:7, 174:18, 

180:19, 181:8, 205:15, 220:5, 

227:9, 227:19, 227:22, 

227:23, 231:2, 232:21

born 22:17, 149:14, 149:16

Bosnia 64:14, 64:18, 72:1

bother 223:16

bothering 211:18

BOX 2:26, 3:25

Boy 166:14, 215:24

BOYD 1:45

brake 40:16, 40:18

Branch 49:7, 88:22, 125:17, 

125:20

break 150:24

breaking 187:16

brief 3:5, 5:8, 75:19, 88:17, 

134:17, 158:7

briefly 7:21, 15:7, 15:12, 

48:7, 108:3, 136:25, 149:4, 

209:23, 217:4

bright 194:7

bring 13:4

brings 54:6

Broadcasting 80:6

broader 55:12

brother 20:17, 21:8, 21:13, 

47:1

brother-in-law 11:10, 12:11

brothers 109:10, 187:2, 

203:25

brought 5:9, 55:10, 55:14, 

180:7, 206:23

Brownell 234:25, 235:1

Brownsville 82:13

Bryan 109:1

build 175:11

Building 21:2, 44:9, 132:1

built 24:6

bullets 206:2, 220:14

bunch 178:16

burden 4:12, 37:2, 37:11, 

56:12, 69:12, 72:5, 77:3, 

77:4, 77:5, 86:3, 86:6, 88:7, 

88:10, 100:8, 100:25, 101:1, 

123:23, 124:2, 132:10, 134:3, 

142:14, 142:17, 171:7, 171:7, 

186:10, 199:17, 199:21, 

203:13, 205:21, 226:16, 

226:18, 226:21, 227:1

bus 75:20, 75:21, 198:16

business 56:25, 89:11, 

118:10, 135:3, 135:4, 170:24

busy 33:5

butting 96:12

buy 49:10, 180:20

buying 112:1

bylaws 203:7

< C >

Cabrera 221:22, 224:23, 

228:8, 230:11, 231:18, 232:2, 
232:12, 232:17, 232:23, 

233:15, 233:20, 234:12, 

237:34

CADEDDU 2:15, 2:16

Cal 201:17

California 179:4

call 22:1, 117:12, 127:6, 

127:7, 162:4, 186:3, 205:24

called 13:21, 36:14, 43:19, 

49:25, 50:16, 54:8, 59:10, 

60:1, 81:5, 89:8, 92:9, 92:21, 

103:7, 103:10, 123:7, 123:8, 

125:21, 126:13, 142:16, 

153:12, 159:1, 163:18, 

165:16, 165:24, 172:6, 

174:13, 179:24, 197:5, 

220:15, 231:2, 235:7

calls 125:13

Calvary 162:20, 201:18

campus 78:17, 156:8

campuses 156:7, 156:10

Canadian 54:9

cancer 32:22

capable 121:9

capacity 135:9

Car 79:19

cardboard 162:2, 162:3, 

162:9

cardiology 24:22

care 10:9, 13:13, 19:21, 

41:12, 47:20, 47:24, 47:25, 

80:18, 82:6, 217:21

career 53:18, 201:25

Carolina 58:13

carpentry 229:3

carries 134:3

Carrollton-farmer 49:7

Carter 237:24

cases 4:23, 62:5, 131:23, 

219:14, 225:17, 226:18

CASEY 2:40, 238:5, 238:19

CASSIDI 2:40, 238:5, 238:19

category 234:12

cause 4:25, 23:25, 24:3, 

24:6, 24:7, 24:13, 38:1, 

55:20, 71:21, 72:8, 72:16, 

75:8, 99:20, 101:22, 102:7, 

102:10, 113:4, 132:12, 

150:18, 150:21, 160:13, 

172:15, 182:9, 191:23, 192:5, 

196:15, 196:20, 212:14, 

216:7, 221:15, 227:16, 

232:17, 232:23, 233:4, 

233:13, 233:15, 234:1, 234:4, 

238:6

causes 19:3, 36:23, 84:9, 

84:19

caution 72:8

cave 68:8

census 144:14

Center 16:25, 26:19, 29:19, 

123:8, 125:19, 125:20, 

125:22, 214:21, 234:11

centers 218:1

Central 91:18, 177:19

centuries 96:14

certain 17:18, 27:20, 39:15, 

55:4, 74:16, 80:10, 91:21, 

137:4, 188:8, 225:18

certainly 3:17, 58:21, 60:10, 

224:14

certification 82:10

certify 238:5, 238:12

chains 135:6

challenge 5:2, 5:3, 24:6, 

24:12, 71:21, 72:10, 101:22, 

102:9, 113:4, 150:18, 160:24, 

196:19, 212:7, 221:15, 

232:17, 232:23

challengeable 102:2

challenged 102:6

challenges 4:25, 234:4

chance 20:5, 20:9, 42:14

chances 20:9

changes 229:22

Channel 96:2, 174:2, 204:18

characterize 193:23

charge 14:10, 37:3, 45:2, 

50:5, 71:10, 71:11, 71:11, 

92:9, 105:3, 128:14, 138:2, 

144:19, 146:8, 166:2, 166:2, 

166:6, 171:21, 219:22, 

226:10, 226:12, 230:16, 

230:18, 230:21

charged 6:8, 6:24, 10:18, 

10:24, 18:11, 27:21, 29:5, 

56:3, 63:21, 69:10, 69:19, 

76:23, 80:10, 81:6, 91:21, 

105:16, 106:6, 132:8, 132:16, 

142:23, 152:20, 153:13, 

153:24, 164:7, 165:14, 166:8, 

211:11, 225:18

charging 16:9, 165:15

Charitable 45:9, 61:12, 

166:19, 166:21, 166:23

charities 39:15, 63:16

charity 6:8, 6:24, 9:17, 

18:11, 25:12, 36:12, 39:13, 

43:18, 51:9, 61:1, 63:15, 

73:13, 83:6, 83:6, 85:6, 

85:11, 103:7, 113:25, 120:19, 

130:11, 130:12, 140:12, 

140:19, 151:14, 161:18, 

173:19, 173:19, 173:20, 

174:12, 174:17, 175:10, 

192:20, 197:8, 197:9, 206:24, 

213:6, 222:10

Chase 13:20

checked 28:25, 98:8, 136:3

checking 22:5

checks 14:2, 14:2

chemical 31:23

Chevrolet 79:17

child 47:20, 47:24, 215:18

children 17:6, 31:14, 32:13, 

33:6, 41:18, 76:2, 115:7, 

115:14, 127:1, 127:1, 127:2, 

127:3, 127:15, 135:14, 

143:22, 144:19, 155:1, 157:2, 

158:3, 174:18, 191:1, 191:2, 

191:3, 227:10

China 49:11

Chinese 29:23

choice 105:20, 202:4

choices 97:16

chooses 91:5, 100:20, 

171:10

chose 203:12

chosen 34:4, 38:2

Christian 174:2, 174:7

Christians 16:23

Chrysler 40:17

Church 122:24, 123:1, 

123:3, 129:2, 145:9, 154:12, 

154:15, 154:19, 162:18, 

162:19, 162:20, 162:24, 

163:5, 163:15, 207:7

circulation 215:15

circumstance 191:7

cite 182:19
citizen 29:4, 32:8, 119:21, 

121:13, 197:23, 197:24

citizens 32:10

City 10:3, 17:1, 32:4, 33:13, 

33:24, 44:6, 44:7, 44:8, 

44:15, 47:3, 66:12, 118:9, 

118:14, 119:8, 169:25

civil 131:21, 135:20, 136:2, 

188:22

civil-type 170:13

clarification 112:20, 235:25

class 44:16, 115:14, 115:15, 

116:17

classes 109:18

classic 74:3

clear 30:20, 31:10, 40:12, 

41:17, 44:18, 84:8, 101:25, 

106:23, 110:22, 179:7, 

182:10, 183:1, 183:4, 203:10, 

221:12, 233:9

clearance 58:1, 58:4, 79:6, 

79:23

clearly 71:22, 72:3, 78:3, 

102:1

Clerk 40:11, 75:25, 76:17, 

112:24

close 7:10, 17:18, 31:7, 40:6, 

111:10, 169:24, 170:2, 

170:16, 185:10

closely 16:16, 54:17, 54:21, 

95:23, 98:4

closing 171:18

clothing 14:13, 23:11, 42:22, 

50:15, 81:7, 85:12, 92:22, 

146:20, 179:15, 220:5

CNN 83:2

collection 170:12

College 7:10, 35:11, 48:17, 

58:17, 79:24, 89:16, 109:18, 

117:24, 127:14, 169:12, 

169:13, 169:14

Collin 234:20, 234:22

combat 224:9

comes 10:14, 45:25, 125:13, 

193:20

comfortable 105:6, 193:15, 

193:17

coming 5:25, 25:1, 73:21, 

173:23, 219:7

commence 5:10

commend 235:11

comment 54:19, 59:23

Commerce 1:35, 2:41

Commercial 89:20

committed 70:24

committees 39:15

common 60:8

community 17:4

commute 47:15

companies 40:18, 49:10, 

49:12, 89:24, 90:1

company 57:2, 57:3, 57:4, 

67:9, 78:23, 89:22, 119:4, 

119:15, 123:8, 126:13, 169:3, 

199:7, 199:8

compensated 110:12

complete 168:15

completed 109:8

completely 64:22, 197:15

comply 238:13

comported 60:8

comprehending 148:21

computer 119:17

computers 119:16

concept 37:4, 43:1, 70:1, 

81:12, 81:15, 160:16, 227:4

concepts 171:4

concern 4:4, 36:23, 38:1, 

84:10, 84:11, 84:20, 84:21, 

150:2, 174:23, 227:16, 

227:18, 232:11, 233:16

concerned 19:9, 20:2, 20:3, 

58:22, 75:19, 75:21, 100:3

concerns 85:21, 172:15, 

211:12

concluded 179:24

conclusion 95:16, 230:12

condo 216:18

conduct 71:1

Conference 112:23, 238:14

conflict 6:2, 15:16, 15:22, 

16:3, 22:7, 22:9, 22:16, 

22:18, 41:7, 54:16, 59:23, 

95:23, 96:11, 98:7, 141:24

conflicts 142:2

confuse 176:15

Confused 71:2, 131:1, 131:2

confusing 60:12

confusion 72:3, 72:13

Congratulations 47:19

connect 210:11

connected 83:17, 140:17

consider 160:20, 176:11

consideration 106:25, 

195:3, 221:7, 232:13

considered 163:14, 195:9

considering 108:13

conspiring 42:6, 91:22

Constantinescu 24:15, 

24:16, 24:21, 24:21, 31:3, 

31:6, 35:18, 66:18, 237:12

Constitution 90:24

Constitutional 28:20, 77:11, 

132:7, 166:3, 225:19

construction 59:11, 89:18, 

89:19, 89:20

contact 12:20, 27:5, 33:16, 

46:17, 54:6, 202:25, 203:3

contained 180:8

contains 50:5, 92:11, 

158:13, 230:17

contends 36:12

continue 21:1, 211:24, 

220:22, 232:4

contract 49:9

contracts 78:25, 79:1

contrary 4:10, 116:12, 

188:17

contributions 45:9

control 40:14

conversation 101:10

convert 162:8

convict 187:8

convicted 95:9

convinced 39:22, 160:16

Convoys 224:11, 229:25

cook 200:24, 202:3

coordinator 177:24

copy 92:10, 111:15, 128:8, 

158:12, 180:3

Correct 6:3, 19:6, 29:15, 

36:19, 38:19, 48:15, 48:16, 

48:18, 49:23, 49:24, 59:20, 

86:1, 88:23, 98:10, 98:20, 

109:9, 118:17, 118:18, 

118:21, 121:22, 134:23, 

136:20, 145:14, 145:18, 

148:12, 158:2, 168:8, 175:7, 

177:3, 218:8, 224:8, 229:9, 

230:7, 230:8, 238:10
correctly 38:23, 236:3

corrugated 162:9

costly 203:23, 204:4

Counsel 3:19, 4:1, 5:16, 

7:18, 7:19, 9:10, 12:5, 14:25, 

24:18, 35:20, 42:4, 43:10, 

51:1, 56:20, 59:21, 60:17, 

66:7, 73:1, 91:18, 101:18, 

102:14, 110:23, 113:10, 

120:9, 129:24, 140:1, 147:15, 

151:4, 161:6, 173:4, 183:3, 

183:3, 183:14, 192:8, 196:21, 

206:17, 212:22, 234:7, 

234:16, 235:12

counseling 16:19, 17:5, 

17:8, 17:22, 163:10

counselor 19:16

countervailing 55:5

countries 29:21, 94:18

country 12:18, 51:17, 64:17, 

121:9, 121:14, 165:15, 

166:22, 225:18

County 8:14, 8:15, 8:15, 

8:16, 98:23, 118:23, 136:14, 

146:2, 168:12, 234:20, 

234:21, 234:22

couple 6:22, 18:2, 44:4, 

44:4, 46:22, 49:10, 65:10, 

131:22, 139:14, 144:18, 

150:23, 157:6, 184:11, 210:1, 

222:24

course 56:1, 94:24, 122:4, 

125:12, 132:14

courses 89:16

Courthouse 1:34, 8:12, 

98:23, 112:21, 113:1

courtroom 3:10, 5:9, 52:2, 

145:24, 181:20, 195:9, 225:5

courts 17:3, 132:11

cover 3:3, 100:17, 127:8, 

235:23

coverage 36:6, 160:9

covered 55:17

CPS 21:4

crazy 15:22, 15:23

create 72:21

crime 10:18, 21:25, 27:21, 

29:8, 69:11, 69:19, 105:16, 

132:17, 152:20, 153:13, 

164:7, 165:14, 166:8, 199:13

crimes 29:5, 76:23, 132:8, 

225:18

crisis 122:20

Cross 177:14

crossed 86:10

Crowley 132:1, 146:4

CSI 22:1

CSR 2:40

Cuban 115:21

Cubans 39:9

cup 185:6

curiosity 200:23

currency 146:18, 189:25, 

231:1, 231:3

currently 101:4, 107:6, 234:9

curriculum 109:5

cut 68:8, 183:1

CUTRER 2:33

< D >

dad 13:13

daily 81:17

danger 224:15

DANIELS 1:45

date 108:11, 135:21, 135:22

daughter 57:5, 143:23, 

144:22

daughter-in-law 64:4, 64:8

Dave 170:4, 170:5

Day 11:1, 20:13, 20:14, 33:2, 

47:25, 77:22, 96:4, 125:12, 

131:23, 131:24, 136:22, 

172:22, 182:3, 191:15, 

194:18, 194:18, 196:8, 

199:23, 204:14, 206:11, 

209:10, 209:10, 211:24, 

218:12, 220:23, 232:5, 

235:10, 235:20, 236:2

Days 7:10, 61:18, 83:8, 

83:10, 83:20, 108:14, 123:8, 

136:20, 139:14, 147:8

de-escalation 122:20

deal 17:5, 21:3, 54:7, 74:10, 

96:6, 136:22, 199:23, 199:24, 

223:8, 223:17, 223:21, 229:2, 

232:20

dealers 53:25

dealerships 57:1

dealing 225:3

dealings 76:6, 185:8, 214:15

deals 113:23, 227:20, 229:3

dealt 14:2, 116:22, 181:18

death 17:13

decent 141:15, 214:16

decide 121:11, 208:25, 

209:12, 225:5

decided 52:2, 86:18, 109:18, 

119:16

decides 86:13, 132:18

deciding 105:4

decision 18:6, 20:7, 45:9, 

45:21, 45:24, 70:18, 90:10, 

90:18, 97:7, 97:12, 121:18, 

167:2, 188:17, 189:7, 189:8, 

194:1, 194:21, 199:25, 209:1, 

221:18

decisions 28:14, 69:1, 

110:20, 200:1

declared 189:3

deep 44:24

defeats 212:17

Defendant 1:40, 2:3, 2:12, 

2:21, 2:30, 3:14, 28:2, 90:23, 

91:5, 100:9, 100:20, 152:23, 

158:22, 164:23, 166:8, 171:8

defendants 3:16, 3:19, 4:9, 

4:18, 6:20, 10:12, 11:3, 

17:24, 25:9, 33:11, 51:16, 

71:13, 75:17, 85:24, 87:16, 

92:20, 106:10, 151:10, 

194:19, 206:1, 207:24, 220:2

Defense 5:20, 9:15, 15:4, 

42:3, 51:6, 56:20, 59:21, 

60:21, 66:7, 72:5, 72:6, 72:7, 

73:9, 82:21, 91:18, 93:19, 

102:5, 102:19, 110:23, 

120:14, 130:6, 140:5, 161:9, 

173:9, 182:9, 183:20, 192:13, 

197:1, 206:20, 213:1, 232:11

define 80:25, 171:23, 180:8, 

230:21, 230:22

definite 176:20

definitely 74:24, 116:4

definition 80:24, 171:25, 

219:24

definitions 92:15, 111:17, 

137:18, 146:14, 158:17, 

180:7

degree 52:7, 52:10, 58:9, 
79:24

deliberating 158:12, 180:4

deliver 146:8

demolished 39:21, 85:14

demonstrated 221:6

denomination 129:5, 154:16

dental 40:22, 131:16, 135:1

dentist 38:10, 38:13

Denton 236:3

deny 233:14

Department 1:32, 13:22, 

20:22, 20:25, 21:1, 21:9, 

29:18, 33:22, 66:13, 123:4, 

188:15, 202:25, 203:4, 

203:11, 203:17

Depend 186:23

depending 99:19

depends 33:17, 87:13, 

87:24, 199:25

Derenda 237:33

describe 91:19, 145:8

described 81:15, 174:23, 

232:18

description 57:14, 111:23, 

158:7, 223:11, 223:12

descriptions 111:23

designated 8:23, 8:24, 34:9, 

42:7, 59:7

destroyed 85:14

destroying 190:21

destruction 186:24

detail 83:17, 84:13, 85:2, 

87:21, 207:9

detailed 86:9

details 84:15, 184:12

detection 32:22, 32:22

detention 125:15, 125:19, 

125:22

determination 188:14

determine 60:7, 189:8

determined 188:13

determining 4:9, 147:6

detriment 102:5

developed 5:2

Development 6:7, 9:17, 

25:12, 36:8, 43:18, 51:9, 

56:25, 93:23, 103:8, 140:12, 

197:7, 213:5

DFW 178:13

diabetes 18:24

diapers 190:13, 190:17, 

190:22, 191:2, 220:4, 227:9

died 13:2

difference 110:13

Different 16:20, 64:5, 64:15, 

65:6, 76:18, 89:14, 89:14, 

96:3, 96:15, 115:15, 117:4, 

126:25, 135:11, 156:7, 

156:10, 191:6

differently 198:15

difficult 7:4, 51:20, 52:4, 

62:17, 65:9, 71:23, 72:2, 

74:20, 74:24, 107:8, 121:18, 

131:7, 148:17, 148:18, 

149:23, 176:4, 176:7

difficulties 55:13

difficulty 107:11, 107:15, 

139:1, 148:21

DIRE 1:17

Direct 101:7, 234:23

direction 201:19

directors 42:6

disagree 147:1, 182:25, 

188:9, 188:16, 220:10, 231:8

disagreement 14:19, 34:16, 

43:2, 50:20, 59:16, 59:19

disciplinary 200:5

disclose 75:3

disclosed 75:7

discontent 55:20

discretion 113:3, 234:8

discriminate 198:17

discuss 46:25, 112:17, 

113:22, 120:5, 129:18, 

129:19, 139:16, 139:17, 

147:11, 147:12, 150:7, 150:8, 

160:7, 160:8, 172:23, 172:24, 

182:4, 182:5, 191:16, 191:17, 

196:10, 196:11, 206:13, 

206:13, 212:1, 212:1, 220:24, 

220:25, 232:6, 232:7

discussed 3:12, 4:25, 5:5, 

95:19

DISD 156:3, 157:15

disease 19:13

Dispute 99:23, 135:25

disputed 155:7

disqualified 233:9

distract 107:16, 195:18, 

209:16

distributed 39:19, 85:12, 

85:16, 174:17, 175:10

distributing 39:14, 63:15

distribution 85:11

DISTRICT 1:1, 1:2, 1:33, 

18:21, 75:24, 78:14, 82:3, 

228:24, 229:11, 234:23, 

238:20, 238:21

diversion 20:24

DIVISION 1:3, 21:23, 22:17, 

201:15, 201:18, 238:22

divorce 17:3, 170:11

divorced 11:13, 11:17, 12:16

docket 136:23

Doctor 17:22, 24:22, 24:23, 

24:25, 178:2

document 92:10, 111:14, 

158:11, 180:1, 180:3

documentaries 96:3

documents 42:15, 50:3, 

80:18, 148:14, 171:16, 

179:25, 230:14

doing 10:7, 15:4, 18:9, 

22:14, 53:9, 73:6, 93:15, 

96:17, 96:18, 102:16, 112:23, 

114:25, 120:11, 120:13, 

122:8, 122:14, 125:22, 151:7, 

162:11, 183:16, 184:24, 

186:15, 190:8, 192:7, 192:10, 

196:23, 199:2, 199:6, 209:11, 

209:16, 215:25, 222:5

dollars 218:12

domestic 21:4, 44:20

Dominicans 39:10

donate 123:12

donated 123:15

done 22:8, 29:1, 29:9, 29:13, 

99:2, 105:7, 108:16, 119:13, 

122:23, 123:17, 126:6, 

141:24, 142:1, 163:12, 

167:12, 180:22, 181:8, 

190:16, 206:7, 217:18, 229:8

dotted 86:10

doubts 3:18

Dowd 182:19

down 13:4, 16:14, 41:12, 

95:10, 98:17, 99:7, 116:13, 

157:11, 162:7, 166:19, 219:7

DPD 21:10, 21:15

DRATEL 2:5, 2:6
Dretke 182:20

drinking 32:4, 33:23

drop 19:1

dropped 109:2

drowsiness 19:2

DRS 79:10

DRS. 78:22

drug 123:3

due 186:4, 190:25

dues 204:2

DUNCAN 1:44

duration 74:7

During 27:9, 188:22, 188:24, 

215:25, 229:23, 238:5

Dust 118:8

duties 155:3

duty 58:17, 125:12, 168:10, 

187:6, 187:11, 202:1, 205:4, 

205:5, 216:14, 224:5, 228:23, 

229:17

dynamite 206:2

< E >

ear 184:15

earlier 69:6, 72:18, 87:10, 

127:15, 127:19, 168:5, 

181:25, 204:21, 204:21

early 53:19

earth 11:23

easily 148:15

East 52:22, 53:5, 53:18, 

55:13, 57:21, 57:22, 57:24, 

58:20, 94:17, 96:4, 111:5, 

135:13, 188:4, 204:11

Eastern 45:6, 234:23

easy 152:15

eat 19:24

economic 148:4

educate 125:8

education 49:18, 109:20, 

169:17

educational 85:3, 112:2, 

119:10, 158:24

Edward 44:9

effect 15:17, 28:14, 79:11

Egypt 53:8

Eighteen 127:10, 184:22

eighteen-month 47:16

eighties 53:19, 53:21

either 3:8, 57:6, 61:5, 67:18, 

95:8, 134:3, 170:16, 173:21, 

188:14, 231:18, 232:15

El 40:24, 41:2, 41:5, 41:6

El-mezain 2:3

elaborate 74:21

Elashi 2:21

elected 199:4

election 203:5, 203:6, 203:6, 

203:8

electrical 78:21, 119:13

Electronics 108:6

Elementary 49:19, 78:19

elements 55:4

Eleven 12:24, 156:16

eleventh 82:4

elicit 150:17

eligible 234:24

ELIZABETH 1:29

Emirates 53:7

emotional 65:16, 65:16

employed 108:12, 234:10

employee 48:23

employees 25:13, 42:6, 

77:18, 80:11

employer 219:4

employment 109:15

end 14:4, 27:16, 39:17, 50:2, 

52:20, 59:2, 63:19, 77:22, 

77:23, 126:7, 146:6, 158:9, 

189:18, 195:6, 219:18, 236:2

ended 53:19

ends 204:15, 215:14

enforce 5:11

enforcement 106:14, 122:17

engineer 31:24, 33:20, 66:17

English 44:16, 115:5, 

115:11, 139:5, 139:7, 148:8, 

148:10, 148:16, 148:21, 

150:1, 150:15

English-as-a-second-langu

age 114:24

enjoy 52:12, 54:24, 54:24

enjoyed 53:17, 119:16

enough 90:20, 132:21, 

142:5, 211:5

enter 71:21

entire 32:17, 48:20, 144:2

entitled 28:20, 29:4

Epperson 5:16, 5:18, 5:19, 

7:17, 7:22, 8:19, 9:8, 237:9

Epsilon 47:6

equal 236:9

equipment 23:11, 23:12, 

34:13, 146:20, 172:8

err 72:7

essential 105:3

essentially 42:5, 59:3, 80:20, 

111:15, 127:24, 128:8, 180:4

established 3:13

estate 169:17

estimating 119:5

ET 1:13

etcetera 96:5

Eternal 123:2, 129:3

Europe 57:23

evaluate 60:7, 176:25

evaluating 60:5, 64:22

evasion 71:11

event 234:12

Everybody 11:21, 76:13, 

153:16, 198:7, 226:8, 228:15

Everyone 10:17, 27:20, 28:7, 

76:4, 76:11, 76:12, 76:14, 

80:16, 86:22, 87:25, 124:6, 

142:8, 165:14, 182:17, 

194:20, 203:9, 209:9

everything 16:23, 28:24, 

68:9, 75:3, 75:6, 84:12, 

86:10, 90:13, 229:22, 229:24, 

229:25

evolved 17:7

Exactly 26:3, 28:24, 140:17, 

190:5, 205:20, 235:16

EXAMINATION 1:17

examine 4:13

example 159:13, 188:12, 

189:16, 205:9, 205:13, 

219:22, 229:5, 230:18

exceeded 235:14

excellent 150:2

except 114:4, 162:18

Excuse 72:8, 102:10, 

150:14, 150:21, 192:5, 

212:13, 228:5, 233:14, 234:8, 

235:3

excused 23:25, 24:2, 72:16, 

233:3, 233:13, 233:25, 235:5

exercise 234:8

exists 41:7
expect 8:19, 8:22, 34:7, 

34:10, 59:5, 59:8, 70:22, 

81:1, 91:11, 92:17, 111:22, 

128:12, 172:10, 172:21, 

189:22, 196:8, 206:10, 

211:23, 232:4

expected 230:2

expecting 147:7

experience 7:15, 11:17, 

44:24, 46:7, 116:11, 116:19, 

118:25, 141:19, 164:1, 225:3, 

226:3

experienced 115:8, 115:23

experiences 7:13, 11:7, 

11:8, 11:15, 17:9, 46:3, 

53:15, 56:9, 76:7, 76:8, 

133:20, 133:23, 141:20, 

160:1, 198:9, 198:10

expired 23:21, 56:14, 71:17, 

88:12, 112:10, 129:11, 139:8, 

160:3, 167:23, 172:18, 206:8, 

228:4

Explain 17:14, 37:22, 50:8, 

86:16, 146:14, 180:10, 181:5, 

200:8, 226:10

explained 68:13

explaining 179:10

explanation 14:9, 42:20, 

69:24, 95:24, 159:4, 172:14, 

180:25

explanations 92:18

exploring 62:21, 114:19

expound 59:22

expressed 3:18, 4:20, 74:10, 

176:19

extend 147:8

extensively 52:21

extent 80:4

external 209:3

eye 235:8

eyes 45:7

< F >

facilities 217:24

facility 40:19, 123:9, 125:6, 

125:14, 125:16, 217:12

facing 188:20

fact 17:11, 70:24, 71:11, 

86:11, 94:5, 148:9, 180:12, 

186:4, 208:8, 210:11, 211:3, 

211:10, 230:24

facts 26:14, 50:6, 59:5, 

92:13, 128:11, 137:19, 200:1, 

200:2, 200:2

fails 167:11, 187:9

fairly 11:2, 60:5, 145:6, 

160:22, 176:25

fairness 195:7

faith 116:20, 117:1, 185:8, 

192:4, 224:18

fall 57:8, 57:24, 203:15

familiar 10:20, 27:23, 

110:24, 120:21, 132:7, 

151:21, 152:2, 152:5, 152:18, 

165:11, 171:3, 204:7

families 17:5, 75:25, 99:13

family 17:7, 20:15, 20:19, 

33:9, 64:16, 71:25, 106:13, 

106:17, 109:25, 118:13, 

172:9, 184:23, 187:2, 208:8, 

208:9, 209:13

fanatic 204:16

fanatics 11:21, 11:22

far 8:9, 19:13, 37:18, 55:2, 

58:21, 62:11, 62:25, 109:15, 

111:20, 126:16, 126:25, 

194:6, 205:9, 207:19, 222:20, 

225:9, 227:21, 233:6

Farm 47:10, 48:24

fashion 175:14, 205:16

fasting 76:10

fatigue 19:2

fault 235:19

favor 199:7, 199:8

Fear 96:21, 101:24, 194:21, 

194:24, 195:13, 196:15, 

208:21, 209:6, 209:12, 

209:15, 212:8

feared 235:14

feature 138:11, 146:25

federal 59:6, 98:15, 99:1, 

170:1

feeling 83:25, 112:5, 155:11

feelings 26:5, 146:24

fees 238:12

feet 162:7

felony 35:3

felt 99:5, 114:11, 194:5, 

203:25, 204:2

few 3:3, 54:14, 60:22, 61:18, 

83:8, 83:10, 83:14, 83:19, 

94:3, 98:2, 108:14, 124:21, 

134:17, 143:19, 156:1, 168:4, 

177:13, 183:21, 192:13, 

197:2, 198:8, 198:17, 201:13, 

206:21, 213:2, 213:3, 217:10, 

228:14, 234:7

Field 32:20, 89:24, 109:14, 

123:3, 135:1, 170:20, 178:11, 

178:12, 198:7, 217:21

Fifteen 119:5, 123:19, 

131:12, 135:2, 156:6, 161:2, 

177:23

fifteen-minute 5:12

fifty 160:18

fighting 15:23, 185:22

figure 194:11

fill 28:19

filled 15:12, 25:6, 36:1, 36:5, 

36:19, 40:9, 43:24, 82:23, 

103:17, 108:10, 108:11, 

113:18, 147:21, 173:11, 

194:8, 222:4

filling 60:22, 157:18

filtration 118:12, 119:4

final 92:7, 171:17, 230:14

finally 3:22

financial 110:14, 177:24, 

203:13, 218:15, 221:8

find 4:1, 62:15, 62:23, 64:6, 

64:7, 68:17, 68:19, 87:4, 

95:7, 95:10, 100:10, 114:1, 

158:15, 158:20, 159:25, 

173:15, 181:10, 190:15, 

190:18, 231:24

finding 107:9

Fine 5:7, 15:5, 62:22, 64:17, 

73:7, 75:4, 117:15, 130:3, 

151:8, 192:8, 196:24

fingerprinting 22:4

fingerprints 22:5

finish 126:4, 219:1

finished 41:25, 93:13, 

112:21, 128:6, 139:20

fire 37:20

firm 126:14

firs 3:7, 4:21

First 1:47, 3:14, 3:19, 4:10, 

4:15, 4:22, 5:9, 6:13, 14:15, 
21:22, 24:7, 49:24, 81:11, 

105:7, 108:17, 115:13, 121:2, 

125:11, 148:1, 149:24, 

165:23, 183:25, 184:3, 222:7, 

228:14, 236:8

FISH 1:18

Five 15:23, 21:2, 42:6, 66:24, 

89:5, 115:4, 117:18, 148:2, 

178:22, 178:23, 178:24, 

198:25, 214:24, 216:6, 

217:17

five-month 74:6, 74:10

Fletcher 101:20

flip 100:7

Floor 2:7, 21:3

Florida 2:27, 109:3, 109:4

flourish 55:19

fluent 54:14, 115:20

focus 109:16

follow 14:15, 16:15, 24:10, 

34:18, 43:4, 43:22, 59:15, 

59:19, 81:24, 91:8, 91:14, 

91:16, 93:1, 96:5, 96:19, 

100:19, 100:21, 102:8, 112:7, 

128:23, 147:1, 147:2, 148:15, 

148:23, 150:16, 167:17, 

171:11, 172:16, 181:3, 181:4, 

181:5, 183:1, 183:5, 183:8, 

191:24, 191:25, 204:10, 

231:8, 233:10

follow-up 40:9, 56:18, 88:17, 

98:2, 134:18, 168:5

followed 41:9, 54:16, 54:21, 

96:7, 98:3, 111:5, 127:20, 

219:13

Following 9:4, 23:15, 24:1, 

48:17, 187:20

food 9:1, 14:13, 23:11, 

34:13, 39:20, 42:22, 50:15, 

59:11, 63:18, 81:7, 85:12, 

92:22, 112:1, 146:20, 158:25, 

175:11, 179:15, 180:19, 

186:14, 190:22, 191:3, 

205:14, 220:4, 227:8

foods 81:16

foregoing 238:9

foregoing-styled 238:6

foreigners 29:23

Forest 58:12

forget 19:23

forgive 62:21

forklift 157:17

form 8:25, 14:14, 23:10, 

23:13, 34:12, 34:14, 39:19, 

40:10, 42:21, 42:22, 50:15, 

59:10, 59:13, 63:18, 67:22, 

81:5, 92:21, 130:25, 132:25, 

146:20, 146:21, 158:23, 

162:6, 174:18, 175:11, 186:6, 

207:23

format 238:12

formed 6:19, 10:5, 26:10, 

61:25, 62:10, 75:16, 98:6

former 12:11

forms 126:10, 156:17

formula 190:13

Forney 169:5

Fort 2:36, 201:22

forth 47:25

forty 19:12, 218:11, 236:9

Found 44:19, 51:17, 67:25, 

95:15, 174:6, 234:20

Four 8:12, 10:4, 27:17, 

48:24, 49:20, 58:16, 107:7, 

115:1, 115:4, 126:20, 127:7, 

143:9, 148:2, 169:19, 194:16, 

204:24, 207:14, 209:8, 

209:11, 216:5, 216:7

four- 74:6, 74:10

fourtee 123:19

Fourteen 40:23, 41:16, 

67:13, 215:19

fraternity 47:1, 47:4

Free 118:8

FREEDMAN 1:45

freedom 188:21

friend 38:12, 46:13, 46:14, 

46:15, 46:15, 47:1, 47:1, 

47:2, 170:2, 170:16, 170:19, 

170:19

friendly 198:5, 198:12, 

198:13

friends 20:18, 185:9, 185:10

Friendship 129:2

Front 38:15, 227:24, 227:25, 

232:19, 232:22

Frye 102:23, 104:3, 108:6, 

108:13, 108:17

full 110:18, 221:6

fully 84:12, 84:21, 84:23

fundamental 182:21

funded 17:1, 20:25, 21:1, 

175:5

Funding 223:8

funds 111:24, 128:16, 138:5, 

138:7, 203:15

funny 17:11

< G >

gains 204:1

games 122:5

gamut 122:6

Garland 6:15, 157:13

GARRETT 1:30

Gartman 9:10, 9:14, 12:3, 

12:6, 12:7, 14:22, 237:10

gather 90:8, 90:15, 90:24

gave 43:18, 45:10, 71:25, 

77:18, 103:9, 130:12, 140:13, 

158:7, 158:23, 159:4, 161:18, 

171:12, 173:10, 175:6, 184:6, 

186:19, 197:9, 198:14, 

203:20, 206:24, 213:7, 220:2

Gaza 39:16, 85:17, 96:6, 

227:11

General 3:9, 11:19, 93:10, 

117:1, 164:4, 170:1

generally 4:12, 4:22, 66:8, 

89:2, 99:11, 171:5

Gentlemen 3:2, 5:16, 35:23, 

60:21, 63:21, 64:21, 65:11, 

65:18, 70:7, 80:8, 86:18, 

101:13, 113:16, 147:19, 

161:2, 174:12, 177:5, 179:12, 

182:11, 222:2, 224:17, 226:5, 

233:20, 235:11

George 201:20

Georgetown 52:11, 52:13, 

58:6

Geraldine 237:11

geriatric 82:9

germane 133:1

Germany 201:2, 201:20

gets 111:14, 132:13, 180:3

getting 62:9, 75:19, 75:21, 

75:22, 94:25, 224:11, 228:1, 

232:21, 235:17

gifts 49:11

girls 41:19
give 4:7, 8:20, 11:2, 11:24, 

54:20, 64:20, 71:13, 80:24, 

81:9, 92:7, 92:18, 95:1, 95:8, 

106:24, 110:18, 111:12, 

111:17, 112:25, 128:5, 128:8, 

158:16, 166:7, 175:15, 

186:15, 189:16, 195:2, 205:7, 

218:18, 220:1, 221:6

Given 23:25, 50:20, 55:22, 

64:16, 66:6, 76:23, 81:4, 

81:21, 92:10, 92:19, 111:24, 

159:13, 166:21, 167:3, 167:8, 

172:5, 188:4, 190:7, 190:14, 

190:24, 192:22, 205:13, 

226:3, 233:12

giver 19:21

gives 174:23, 189:23, 

189:25, 219:16

giving 6:9, 6:25, 9:18, 16:9, 

25:14, 73:13, 81:7, 105:2, 

120:20, 137:18, 151:15, 

153:24, 159:19, 160:20, 

184:24, 186:13, 190:9, 

192:21, 205:12, 207:8

glad 225:10

glory 55:18

goats 96:12

goggles 79:5

golf 46:22

goodness 116:9

goods 158:24, 211:4, 231:1

Gosh 89:5, 89:9

gotten 114:12

govern 200:10, 200:10

governments 55:19

grade 49:16, 117:21

graduated 57:6, 57:7

graduating 57:6

graduation 48:17

Grand 131:22, 131:25, 

132:12, 132:12, 134:7, 

136:14, 149:11, 149:12

grandchildren 33:6, 33:6

grandfather 106:16

grant 102:9, 196:19, 212:13

graphic 67:5

graphics 82:6, 82:10

great 33:6, 114:11

Greg 2:32, 5:20, 9:14, 15:3, 

25:8, 43:12, 51:6, 73:8, 

93:19, 102:18, 120:12, 130:2, 

140:3, 151:9, 161:9, 183:19, 

192:12, 196:25, 206:20, 

212:25

grew 40:24, 53:17, 119:17, 

126:22, 230:9

Greyhound 202:14, 202:20

Griffin 234:19

Grocery 135:3, 135:4, 

144:15

ground 19:20

grounds 212:8

group 5:9, 8:24, 8:25, 11:23, 

26:18, 34:10, 70:5, 95:17, 

95:18, 120:3, 137:6, 140:25, 

145:24, 185:21, 187:1, 

189:14, 219:9, 236:8

groups 96:16

grown 35:13, 65:13, 127:2, 

135:14, 158:4, 158:5, 169:20

grown-up 191:4

guarantee 143:10

Guard 58:18, 229:24

guess 37:21, 64:1, 74:14, 

87:12, 91:19, 101:16, 105:12, 

110:16, 121:4, 137:2, 145:10, 

151:23, 163:11, 166:10, 

207:20, 211:1, 215:21, 223:1, 

231:18

guessing 209:9, 236:2

guidelines 205:4

guilt 6:20, 124:8, 207:24

guns 160:20, 187:12, 

188:25, 220:14

guy 26:20, 26:21, 46:21, 

113:5

guys 44:20, 62:7, 178:16

< H >

H-A-M-A-S 128:2

half 58:16, 89:9, 89:17, 

104:3, 199:1, 235:19

Hall 9:9, 14:23, 23:23, 33:24, 

35:19, 43:9, 50:25, 60:16, 

71:19, 82:19, 93:8, 112:19, 

120:8, 129:21, 139:21, 

147:14, 150:11, 160:11, 

173:2, 182:7, 191:21, 196:13, 

206:16, 212:6, 221:2, 232:10

HAMAS. 85:8

hand 55:16

handled 170:11

handling 19:13

hands-on 79:1

handwriting 35:1

happen 19:8, 58:24, 95:15, 

95:16, 96:4, 97:5, 99:19, 

158:20, 208:7, 233:6, 236:1

happened 17:20, 22:18, 

35:4, 44:15, 45:18, 55:13, 

121:4, 125:3, 125:4, 224:12, 

226:4

happening 85:1, 121:9

happens 121:6, 193:19, 

225:13, 225:13

hard 63:24, 63:25, 65:8, 

143:12, 166:10, 166:14

hardship 113:5, 148:4, 

148:4, 204:23, 216:8, 221:5, 

232:23, 234:9

hardships 113:3

Harlingen 82:16

harm 65:6

harmful 190:20

harsh 200:8

Harvest 217:14

hastily 29:1

hate 15:25, 97:15, 188:22, 

188:24, 201:7

hated 15:25

hatred 225:9, 225:12

Hattie 237:23

HBC 229:3

he'll 219:23

head 36:25, 42:10, 42:12, 

98:19, 114:8, 151:12

headache 75:4

headaches 74:12

headlines 6:22

heads 96:12

health 82:6, 215:7, 215:8, 

217:21

Hearing 73:15, 131:3, 

176:19, 177:2, 222:22, 

223:10, 223:11, 227:15, 

227:17

hearsay 111:8

heart 110:17, 224:24

heavy 94:22
Hebrew 138:23, 139:1

held 179:9

Helicopter 52:16, 53:10, 

57:10

helicopters 53:11

Hello 9:14, 217:6

help 20:16, 78:1, 90:9, 

154:25, 159:19, 163:4, 163:6, 

163:15, 167:4, 167:12, 172:8, 

185:25, 187:1, 218:14, 

218:16

helped 53:25, 85:13, 166:23

helping 175:11, 187:3

helps 187:12

Henson 196:21, 196:23, 

201:10, 206:9, 237:31

Hermelinda 237:13

herself 72:15

hesitation 64:21, 84:3, 

164:20, 164:21, 226:6, 226:7

hiding 86:20, 86:22

high 44:10, 44:16, 57:6, 

144:15

higher 199:22

highest 30:22, 142:16, 

199:20

Highlight 40:13, 40:15, 

40:16, 41:15

highlights 84:15, 84:18

Hill 217:14

Hindus 16:22

History 22:12, 54:24, 64:16, 

96:2

Ho 147:15, 149:3, 150:4, 

150:14, 150:21, 234:2, 

237:25

Hobbs 235:7

hold 86:13, 86:25, 87:6, 

91:7, 100:21, 101:1, 105:21, 

124:1, 153:7, 171:10, 221:16

holding 125:20

HOLLANDER 1:43, 1:46

Holmes 161:6, 167:25, 

168:2, 172:20, 237:27

Home 13:12, 13:13, 19:23, 

35:14, 41:11, 41:18, 41:19, 

44:15, 44:15, 47:22, 49:2, 

49:14, 67:1, 67:4, 109:2, 

109:7, 116:7, 123:9, 143:22, 

143:25, 144:10, 144:12, 

156:22, 157:8, 158:4, 168:16, 

169:20, 186:3, 215:7, 215:8, 

215:10, 216:2, 218:4

homeland 191:5

homemaker 13:9, 144:9

homes 39:20, 63:19, 85:13, 

175:11

honest 62:19, 150:15, 

190:18, 191:10, 204:12

honestly 65:18, 226:4

honesty 64:24, 114:18

HONORABLE 1:18

Hood 201:23

hope 3:5, 235:15

hoped 235:13

hopefully 194:20

Hospital 50:17, 59:12, 82:7, 

82:14, 146:21, 168:21, 181:8, 

206:4, 206:4, 231:4, 235:1

Hospitals 217:24, 217:25

hour 17:19, 101:14, 101:15, 

125:14, 233:22, 235:20

house 49:8, 127:3, 216:17

housekeeping 93:10

housewife 156:18

Houston 117:25

Hudson 3:7, 236:5

human 65:4, 117:3, 185:11, 

185:12

humanitarian 9:1, 14:12, 

23:11, 23:13, 34:12, 39:14, 

39:19, 42:21, 50:16, 59:10, 

63:16, 63:18, 77:24, 81:6, 

81:16, 85:11, 85:14, 92:22, 

111:25, 159:1, 159:18, 172:7, 

174:17, 174:19, 175:10, 

180:21, 189:24, 190:1, 

190:13, 205:14, 220:4, 

220:15, 227:7, 227:12, 231:2

humankind 190:20

hundred 160:18, 202:5

hungry 190:22

Hunt 8:14, 118:23

Huntsville 117:24

hurt 105:24, 209:13

husband 11:12, 13:14, 

17:22, 19:15, 31:10, 31:23, 

33:15, 33:18, 33:21, 40:12, 

41:4, 41:12, 41:15, 66:8, 

73:24, 78:20, 83:3, 89:1, 

89:13, 115:20, 117:16, 119:3, 

119:20, 178:5

hypothetical 181:18

< I >

Ibuprofen 75:4

idea 66:19, 93:1, 115:23, 

119:14, 175:24, 227:19, 

231:22

ideally 52:2

ideas 62:20, 85:21, 96:15, 

227:22

identify 32:23

illegal 61:12, 81:21

imagine 140:7, 143:5, 143:7, 

188:23

immigrate 31:10, 117:16, 

149:15

impair 97:11, 212:8, 216:12

impartial 7:5, 11:25, 18:10, 

68:15, 68:24, 72:12, 87:5, 

97:12, 98:8, 105:10, 123:23, 

164:10, 164:15, 176:2, 

176:12, 179:6, 183:9, 196:16, 

224:25

impartially 60:5

import 49:11

important 51:20, 62:23, 

77:7, 77:10

impressions 62:9, 130:24

In-take 38:17

in. 25:1, 34:6, 198:7

inactive 202:2

incest 136:7

include 34:10, 42:20, 57:20, 

92:15, 128:13, 194:2, 230:24

included 14:8, 81:25, 

189:22, 205:11, 230:20

including 160:18

income 71:11

incoming 14:2

incompetent 30:2, 30:3

incomplete 69:17

incorrect 178:2

incriminate 18:3, 186:22

Independent 47:9, 48:25

independently 47:11

INDEX 237:3

Indians 29:23
indicate 56:21

indicated 34:21, 72:11, 98:2, 

109:22, 110:6, 118:19, 

126:11, 126:25, 168:6, 170:2, 

171:2, 210:4, 232:14

indicted 132:15, 137:5

indictment 50:9

indifferent 76:12

individual 3:4, 8:23, 17:7, 

145:23

individually 38:11, 212:18

individuals 23:2, 67:22, 

81:6, 91:21, 137:4, 161:16, 

164:7, 179:17

industry 48:20, 89:11

influences 209:3

inform 3:7

information 20:1, 54:20, 

56:18, 88:25, 95:7, 118:3, 

119:11, 150:17, 151:17, 

168:15, 192:23, 203:21, 

234:17, 234:21, 235:4, 235:6, 

236:6

Infrared 79:5

injustice 186:4

Ink 126:14

innocence 6:20, 11:3, 18:6, 

28:5, 56:4, 65:12, 65:19, 

69:7, 69:8, 69:15, 69:18, 

70:6, 71:13, 71:25, 72:4, 

77:7, 85:25, 86:1, 86:7, 

106:2, 132:14, 133:7, 142:21, 

153:13, 153:17, 165:17, 

165:20, 166:4, 166:9, 171:6, 

177:5, 182:12, 182:18, 

182:21, 183:6, 207:24, 

225:15, 226:1, 226:5

innocent 10:19, 28:7, 65:11, 

69:20, 71:4, 77:10, 77:12, 

77:12, 77:20, 106:2, 106:5, 

106:7, 106:9, 106:10, 124:7, 

132:17, 134:3, 142:25, 

153:14, 153:17, 199:14, 

225:22, 226:8

inquire 150:23

inside 20:21

instances 234:7

instruct 93:13

instructed 92:12

instruction 9:4, 14:16, 23:9, 

34:11, 42:21, 43:5, 50:19, 

59:15, 59:16, 59:19, 81:25, 

91:8, 91:14, 93:2, 100:22, 

112:7, 112:25, 190:2, 230:23

instrument 66:9

insulin 19:7

Insurance 38:17, 47:8, 

48:19, 48:24

intend 5:11, 50:3, 111:11

intended 138:24

intent 78:1, 167:4, 186:15, 

206:7, 206:7, 220:6

interest 55:11

interested 184:13

interesting 17:17, 132:5

interfere 46:8

interfering 196:15

International 52:6, 52:11, 

203:24

interns 16:19

interpose 101:21

interrupt 187:5, 204:19

Interstate 125:16

intervention 15:18

interviewing 112:15, 129:14

intimately 132:6

introduce 180:1

introduced 179:25

involve 45:1

Involved 36:7, 57:12, 173:17

involves 30:12, 36:11, 51:9, 

61:1, 63:7, 71:12, 73:11, 

83:5, 88:6, 103:6, 105:1, 

113:24, 120:19, 130:10, 

197:7, 211:3, 223:2, 224:17, 

225:6

involving 18:11, 173:18, 

222:9

Ira 237:26

Iran 12:14, 27:1, 53:21

Iraq 53:20, 64:9, 64:18, 72:1, 

96:5, 223:25, 224:3, 225:3

Irvin 182:19

Irving 16:25, 20:21

Islamic 7:2, 55:17, 55:21

Israel 25:7, 60:2, 141:23, 

155:6, 185:22

Israeli 41:8, 55:15, 59:22

Israeli-palestinian 54:16, 

141:24

Israelis 55:11, 98:3, 111:6, 

155:14

issue 4:6, 37:7, 47:19, 65:11, 

68:12, 76:3, 76:14, 84:13, 

97:3, 97:10, 155:9, 160:19, 

166:18, 166:22, 194:14, 

195:13, 197:19, 209:4, 

232:24

issued 22:21, 228:19

issues 4:25, 38:4, 45:14, 

47:24, 55:8, 74:11, 96:21, 

105:5, 121:11, 150:24, 

182:14, 208:3, 221:8

Italy 64:14

item 13:10, 13:24

items 172:7, 186:14, 205:14, 

220:4, 220:7

itself 19:2, 55:20, 159:15, 

160:18, 166:13, 203:5

Ivan 237:34

< J >

Jackson 192:6, 192:10, 

196:4, 196:6, 196:15, 196:20, 

234:3, 237:30

Jacob 237:14

jail 211:20

Jerry 237:31

Jewish 188:24

Jews 16:23

Jim 1:27, 7:22, 12:9, 18:20, 

31:8, 40:7, 48:10, 56:16, 

66:3, 78:9, 88:15, 97:24, 

107:25, 124:19, 134:15, 

143:18, 149:5, 155:24, 168:2, 

177:11, 188:2, 201:11, 

209:24, 217:7, 228:11

job 57:15, 57:25, 79:18, 

89:15, 103:4, 107:10, 108:6, 

108:17, 124:23, 125:3, 125:5, 

170:23, 185:11, 200:19, 

205:2, 209:16, 216:9, 216:13, 

218:23, 219:1, 225:12, 

229:20, 229:21

jobs 89:14, 144:11, 152:12

JOE 1:18

John 237:19

Johnson 206:17, 206:19, 

209:22, 209:24, 211:22, 
212:14, 234:3, 237:32

join 184:23

JONAS 1:28

Jordan 53:7, 94:17

JOSHUA 2:5, 2:6

judical 165:22

Judicial 238:13

July 235:1

June 108:10

Junior 201:20

juries 27:12, 27:14, 28:15, 

68:8, 199:9

Juror 3:23, 5:3, 7:18, 28:1, 

38:2, 39:1, 39:2, 48:4, 56:5, 

65:23, 68:15, 68:24, 72:3, 

72:8, 84:5, 84:10, 91:7, 98:8, 

110:12, 113:8, 114:20, 131:7, 

136:4, 148:22, 149:1, 173:16, 

179:6, 183:9, 187:6, 187:7, 

189:11, 193:13, 209:16, 

211:6, 221:14, 224:25, 233:3, 

235:6

jurors 5:9, 37:18, 62:15, 

72:20, 83:11, 83:20, 83:24, 

87:5, 93:16, 112:15, 112:21, 

112:24, 120:4, 159:25, 

175:25, 176:17, 182:1, 

212:16, 236:2

juryroom 93:16, 110:19

JUSTICE 1:32, 124:7, 171:3

juvenile 20:24, 121:21, 

121:24, 123:4, 124:23, 

124:24, 125:9, 125:15

juveniles 122:4, 125:6, 

144:25

< K >

Kansas 47:3

Kaufman 67:11, 168:12

keep 18:8, 53:22, 56:9, 

93:14, 96:13, 107:9, 111:14, 

122:14, 143:12, 199:2, 

213:21

key 54:8

Kiblinger 24:14, 113:7, 

151:3, 212:19, 221:21

kids 127:7, 127:7, 163:11, 

169:19, 190:22

kill 190:19

kindergarten 115:3

kinds 223:14, 227:17

Knowing 8:24, 9:20, 85:20, 

85:22, 87:6, 148:3, 151:16, 

174:21, 197:11, 211:18

knowingly 81:21

knowledge 58:20, 90:5, 

141:12, 227:20

known 26:16, 38:9, 50:4, 

66:16, 110:24, 154:5, 163:23, 

204:7, 214:13

knows 216:6, 221:5

Kress 21:14

KRLD 25:22, 25:23

Kroger 144:14

< L >

L. 2:6, 2:40, 238:5, 238:19

Labor 203:1, 203:4, 203:11, 

203:17

laboratory 13:17

Ladies 3:2, 5:15, 101:13, 

161:2, 233:20, 235:11

lady 49:8, 176:8

laid 79:19, 118:6

Lake 103:21

Lamar 157:11

language 38:22, 39:7, 54:12, 

115:6, 115:12, 115:13, 

115:14, 115:16, 115:17, 

148:10, 148:16, 148:22, 

149:24, 150:15

languages 115:15

large 198:6

largest 54:10

Last 8:13, 10:3, 13:18, 

13:24, 23:1, 23:25, 24:9, 

32:7, 61:18, 83:8, 83:10, 

83:19, 89:22, 106:16, 122:10, 

123:19, 126:20, 203:4, 

218:24, 231:12, 233:21, 

236:1

Lastly 22:6

lasts 216:4

late 125:13, 235:17

lately 46:19

later 99:2, 100:4, 120:4, 

139:14, 147:9, 150:6, 205:13, 

220:7, 231:3, 233:4

Lathe 90:3

latter 129:16

laundry 160:19

laws 29:5, 200:10, 200:10

lawyer 73:9, 170:12, 206:20

lawyers 5:20, 9:15, 15:4, 

73:9, 82:21, 93:19, 102:19, 

120:14, 130:6, 140:5, 151:10, 

161:9, 192:13, 197:1, 213:1

layman 57:14

leader 198:19

learn 22:9, 119:15, 185:23

learned 39:21

lease 108:24

least 4:19, 139:13, 172:22, 

191:15, 196:9, 206:11, 

211:24, 220:23, 232:4

leave 112:21, 232:9

leaves 5:3

leaving 108:13

lectern 3:24, 4:1

left 108:5, 108:13, 113:1, 

127:3, 158:4, 236:2, 236:7

length 143:9

Lennie 236:3

Leonard 237:30

Less 37:11, 37:11, 88:10, 

157:13, 194:17, 209:8, 

226:18, 226:20, 227:1

lessened 88:8

lesson 154:25

level 49:17, 200:17

levels 49:19

Lew 146:3

Lewisville 118:16

libraries 85:12

life 26:25, 65:5, 108:16, 

122:3, 122:24, 125:23, 

134:23, 144:2, 159:25, 169:7, 

190:21, 224:14, 225:10

life-and-death 225:3

likelihood 199:25

limit 5:12

limited 204:20

Linda 2:24, 2:25, 35:22, 

60:20, 82:20, 113:15, 147:18, 

173:8, 222:1, 237:10

line 95:10, 106:17, 109:8

liner 162:5

Lines 202:14
list 13:9, 101:19, 160:19, 

212:21, 234:25

listed 66:8

Listen 68:15, 74:2, 90:18, 

93:14, 95:6, 101:8, 110:19, 

112:18, 120:6, 129:20, 

147:13, 150:9, 160:9, 172:25, 

174:3, 182:6, 191:18, 196:12, 

206:14, 212:2, 221:1, 232:8, 

233:10

listening 130:4

lists 13:7

literal 116:3

little 25:3, 53:8, 53:21, 

54:20, 55:24, 60:12, 64:25, 

67:16, 80:15, 90:13, 97:14, 

102:21, 110:4, 121:5, 130:7, 

130:8, 132:9, 140:6, 140:7, 

147:25, 163:13, 183:19, 

189:17, 192:14, 194:17, 

194:18, 208:21, 229:24

live 6:14, 47:12, 47:14, 

54:13, 56:5, 103:19, 108:18, 

108:21, 125:6, 127:11, 

135:16, 135:17, 149:10, 

169:9

lived 27:9, 31:16, 41:1, 

67:11, 67:13, 109:23, 118:13, 

134:22, 144:1, 149:7, 169:6, 

178:22, 178:22, 178:24, 

202:8

livelihood 199:25

lives 20:17, 202:10

living 44:6, 44:8, 54:11, 68:8

Local 202:23

located 26:13, 33:18, 119:7, 

129:7, 169:3, 177:17, 210:24, 

217:14, 219:11

location 156:11, 157:11, 

177:20

locations 89:15

logic 102:9

lollipops 227:9, 228:1

look 45:18, 70:17, 76:20, 

95:23, 159:18, 180:3, 180:11, 

186:25, 187:3, 194:25, 

195:24, 198:17, 204:3, 

231:19, 233:18

Looking 16:14, 45:14, 45:19, 

45:21, 87:3, 103:4, 109:15, 

110:11, 114:18, 176:17

looks 108:9, 126:11, 169:6

Looney 15:17

Lopez 117:12

Lopez-rogina 113:9, 113:13, 

117:12, 237:21

losing 19:20

lost 199:5, 203:16, 235:19

lot 10:8, 15:21, 29:20, 29:22, 

38:11, 41:10, 44:21, 52:13, 

53:13, 53:19, 55:22, 75:25, 

76:17, 83:16, 84:13, 87:12, 

148:14, 163:10, 163:16, 

199:24, 215:11

lots 79:12

louder 102:21

Louis 202:8, 202:11, 202:21

Love 122:12, 178:11, 178:12

Lovely 120:9, 120:11, 

124:13, 124:15, 124:17, 

129:13, 237:22

low 102:22

lower 21:3

lucky 83:24

lunch 101:15, 102:10

luncheon 101:14

< M >

ma'am 43:7, 61:8, 64:3, 

70:15, 83:13, 147:3, 174:15, 

175:3, 211:21, 223:20, 224:1, 

224:16

Maddox 51:1, 51:5, 56:15, 

58:15, 60:15, 237:15

mail 109:6

Mainly 94:17, 116:17, 

135:11, 135:13, 170:13, 

188:19, 208:16

maintenance 119:16, 229:3, 

229:4, 229:6

major 55:20, 135:6, 208:19

males 122:4

Mallard 170:4, 170:5

Mallick 2:34

Mallory 212:20, 212:22, 

212:25, 217:3, 217:5, 220:20, 

221:4, 234:10, 237:33

man 190:20, 195:22

management 200:8

manager 13:16, 88:23, 89:1, 

89:16, 118:3, 126:11, 126:12, 

126:15

mandatory 126:2

manifest 19:1

manufacturing 40:19

Marcus 49:9, 49:12

marital 17:7

mark 8:7

MARLO 2:15, 2:16

marriage 119:20, 127:16

married 119:23

Marshall 129:22, 130:2, 

134:11, 134:13, 139:11, 

237:23

Mary 237:17

mass 186:24

masters 58:11

materially 63:11

materials 50:17, 59:11, 

180:19, 220:3, 220:3

math 110:2

matter 30:6, 37:14, 93:10, 

97:11, 204:4

matters 3:3

MBA 52:9

Mckinney 2:17

Mcmurray 169:14

mean 22:22, 54:21, 63:4, 

77:16, 79:13, 84:16, 84:24, 

87:13, 95:24, 99:10, 121:9, 

139:15, 175:4, 175:5, 176:15, 

193:18, 204:19, 223:22, 

225:9, 226:20, 227:18, 

227:21, 231:14

meaning 38:23, 115:25, 

116:2, 116:12

means 54:14, 65:15, 77:8, 

106:8, 125:9, 139:4, 158:18

meant 39:8, 80:23, 80:25, 

92:16, 111:18, 127:2, 180:9, 

180:9, 230:22

meantime 101:7, 120:5, 

147:10, 150:7

mechanic 141:16, 141:17

mechanical 80:1

media 9:21, 36:6, 83:2, 

93:14, 94:21, 101:8, 104:20, 

104:22, 105:9, 112:18, 120:6, 

129:20, 139:17, 145:14, 
147:13, 150:9, 160:9, 172:25, 

182:6, 191:18, 192:23, 

196:12, 206:15, 212:3, 221:1, 

232:8

Medical 18:23, 23:12, 26:19, 

29:19, 34:13, 42:22, 59:11, 

81:7, 92:22, 112:2, 146:20, 

172:7, 185:2, 186:13, 190:24, 

205:14, 220:5

medication 74:17

medicine 39:20, 63:18, 

85:12, 128:18, 138:7, 174:18, 

175:11, 227:8

Medina 101:20

medium 162:5

meet 43:14, 43:15, 48:12, 

100:8, 117:22, 198:14, 

215:14

member 90:2, 101:5, 172:9, 

202:22, 233:21

members 3:4, 3:8, 3:20, 

71:25, 101:10, 120:3, 129:14, 

139:12, 208:9

men 16:9, 127:25, 210:17, 

225:6

mentioned 18:24, 22:19, 

42:4, 64:8, 127:23, 146:11, 

236:1

merit 233:12

merits 233:3

Mesquite 67:14

mess 94:14

met 21:23, 104:1

Metal 90:3

metroplex 117:23

Mexicans 39:10

MHMR 168:19, 168:22

microphone 4:6, 102:20

Middle 45:6, 52:22, 53:4, 

53:18, 55:13, 57:21, 57:22, 

57:23, 58:20, 94:17, 96:4, 

111:5, 156:13, 188:4, 204:11

Midlothian 20:17

migraine 74:11, 75:4

Milburn 183:12, 183:16, 

187:25, 188:1, 191:12, 

191:23, 192:5, 234:2, 237:29

military 200:23, 223:16, 

233:17

mind 19:19, 23:17, 41:14, 

62:24, 72:13, 89:2, 90:16, 

100:8, 107:12, 108:3, 110:22, 

124:23, 134:20, 143:12, 

151:24, 156:2, 175:1, 175:19, 

175:21, 175:24, 179:16, 

181:15, 194:14, 194:15, 

195:15, 195:21, 209:4, 

209:12

mine 47:1, 127:18, 185:9

minimal 20:9, 90:5

ministries 163:1

minor 84:15, 84:18

minute 161:3, 226:10

minutes 183:21, 192:14, 

197:2, 206:21, 213:2, 213:4

misappropriation 203:14

misdemeanor 34:25, 35:3, 

144:19

mispronouncing 181:25

misstate 234:13

misstates 69:14, 69:17

misstating 59:23

moderate 145:11

mom 13:13

moment 24:13, 60:13, 84:8, 

201:14, 221:20, 233:16

Monday 83:22

monitor 200:5

Month 17:18, 113:6, 216:20, 

231:22, 232:15

months 13:5, 13:6, 36:2, 

47:20, 49:13, 60:23, 61:18, 

61:21, 77:23, 82:24, 107:8, 

113:18, 131:22, 143:9, 

147:21, 148:2, 148:2, 148:2, 

173:11, 194:17, 204:24, 

207:15, 209:7, 209:8, 209:11, 

215:14, 216:5, 216:6, 216:6, 

216:7, 222:4

Moreno 2:24, 2:25, 3:23, 

35:21, 35:23, 38:16, 38:18, 

39:3, 60:18, 60:20, 65:15, 

67:16, 82:21, 84:23, 88:12, 

113:11, 113:15, 147:17, 

147:19, 173:6, 173:8, 175:24, 

179:8, 222:2, 224:5, 228:4, 

228:6

mortared 224:11

mortgage 88:21, 90:12

MOS 229:22

mosque 26:23, 59:12

Mostly 14:1, 32:21, 54:4, 

216:2

Mosty 93:18, 97:19, 97:21, 

97:22, 101:4, 101:17, 101:22, 

102:10, 234:1, 237:19

mother 13:2, 13:4, 202:10

motion 196:19, 212:13, 

233:14

motivated 104:9

Mount 162:20

mouth 183:4

move 45:16, 109:24, 117:19, 

149:18, 150:14, 182:9, 

232:22

moved 17:21, 35:13, 41:2, 

108:20, 143:23, 143:24, 

143:24

movement 188:22

Mufid 2:12, 33:13

multi-page 92:10, 158:11

multicultural 75:25

murdered 195:24

Murrow 44:9

Muslims 7:8, 7:13, 10:23, 

11:5, 11:18, 16:17, 16:22, 

26:15, 26:16, 27:7, 30:11, 

38:7, 46:12, 53:13, 75:23, 

103:24, 116:23, 133:15, 

133:21, 141:10, 141:20, 

154:3, 154:5, 154:10, 163:24, 

164:2, 198:3, 214:11, 225:6

myself 114:12, 166:16, 

190:18, 203:15, 223:19

Mytien 237:25

< N >

named 63:12

namely 234:1

names 96:7, 197:16

NANCY 1:43

Nasiriah 224:4

NATHAN 1:30

nation 142:24

nationalities 133:18

nationality 12:13, 30:7, 

198:16

native 116:8

naturalized 32:14, 119:21
nature 7:3, 9:3, 10:25, 11:1, 

14:12, 19:12, 42:24, 81:8, 

98:6, 122:5, 122:20, 135:24, 

137:1, 174:8, 174:22, 211:12, 

223:6

necessarily 8:7, 109:17

need 3:3, 3:10, 15:18, 41:12, 

55:12, 63:3, 68:22, 74:24, 

75:11, 75:14, 113:21, 114:1, 

147:24, 163:16, 163:20, 

175:25, 203:21, 204:16, 

224:24, 229:6, 231:24, 

233:18, 233:18, 235:23

needed 89:16, 235:7

needs 163:6, 229:7

needy 175:12, 175:13, 

175:18, 175:22, 227:10

negotiated 53:12

Neiman 49:9, 49:12

Nervous 183:17, 208:10, 

208:11, 211:15

network 119:18

Nevada 35:10

New 2:8, 144:23

News 6:11, 6:16, 16:15, 

36:9, 44:4, 75:13, 80:3, 

84:16, 96:1, 104:21, 110:7, 

120:24, 127:21, 130:21, 

137:9, 140:16, 140:25, 142:2, 

170:22, 173:22, 204:10, 

204:17, 210:7, 213:12, 

219:14, 222:18

newspaper 111:9

newspapers 6:5, 6:13, 61:7, 

61:24, 61:25, 67:18, 90:5, 

110:8, 114:1, 137:12, 170:16, 

170:20, 222:14, 222:16

next 24:14, 73:1, 98:5, 

113:8, 138:23, 200:3, 212:20, 

221:22

Nexus 123:7

Nice 26:20, 26:21, 43:14, 

43:15, 48:12

nickel 181:7

niggling 209:12

night 20:14, 20:14, 79:5, 

222:18

Nine 12:17, 235:17, 235:21, 

236:11

Nineteen 127:10, 178:20, 

201:5

nineteenth 202:16

NM 1:48

no-show 234:18

no-shows 101:19

Nobody 143:10

nods 98:9

non 106:25, 160:20

noncitizen 28:19

None 124:12, 127:13

nonmonetary 160:20

Nonprofit 123:5, 123:16

Nor 129:19, 147:12, 150:9, 

160:8, 172:25, 191:17, 

196:11, 206:14, 212:2, 

220:25

Normally 41:10, 166:12

North 53:8, 58:12

Northeast 129:9

NORTHERN 1:2, 1:33, 18:21, 

234:23, 238:21

note 233:15

Nothing 62:19, 68:7, 82:17, 

114:4, 125:2, 125:4, 141:21, 

186:22, 224:12

notion 37:19, 146:17

notions 183:6

November 13:3, 224:2

Number 1:7, 10:12, 53:14, 

101:20, 101:20, 113:6, 

126:17, 182:10, 212:20, 

234:2, 234:2, 234:2, 234:3, 

234:3, 234:5, 234:5, 234:5, 

234:6, 234:9, 234:10, 234:18, 

235:7, 236:9

nurse 214:18

nursing 215:10

NY 2:8

< O >

o'clock 125:11, 125:12, 

204:15, 236:11

O'henry 78:18

oath 3:9

object 4:8, 38:25, 132:25, 

160:15, 212:15

Objection 4:3, 69:14, 

150:19, 160:14, 212:11

observe 183:6

observed 6:1

obtain 186:6

Obviously 7:1, 19:25, 20:3, 

145:13, 164:6, 231:23, 

232:11

occupant 108:23

occupation 66:8, 78:21

Odeh 2:30

offenders 20:24

offense 106:6, 153:23, 

153:25

OFFICE 2:6, 2:16, 2:25, 

20:21, 33:18, 34:1, 38:10, 

38:14, 38:15, 40:22, 66:17, 

76:17, 126:15, 141:6, 199:5, 

234:22

officer 21:12, 21:18, 106:17, 

106:20, 106:25, 107:1, 

121:25, 124:23, 125:9

officers 21:3, 21:8, 106:14, 

106:19

offices 21:5

official 238:7

often 106:19, 154:12

Oklahoma 44:6, 44:7, 44:8, 

46:7, 109:23

old 47:17, 110:3, 115:4, 

143:25, 152:14, 184:22, 

215:18, 235:3

Older 41:25, 144:25, 145:2

olds 49:21

Oman 53:7

once 132:12

ones 54:10, 72:22, 123:6, 

134:8, 168:5, 233:25

operate 141:3

operated 47:11

operates 104:24

operator 198:16

operators 54:10

opinion 10:5, 11:18, 22:7, 

51:22, 54:25, 61:25, 67:22, 

86:23, 91:3, 95:1, 95:4, 98:6, 

116:25, 142:4, 142:6, 155:12, 

175:1, 179:9, 186:2, 186:7, 

203:19, 211:16, 228:19, 

232:18

opinions 6:19, 10:1, 18:8, 

26:10, 44:2, 55:8, 62:10, 

62:25, 75:16, 85:21, 87:21, 
130:25, 154:9, 174:24, 

175:16, 176:1, 176:3, 176:3, 

176:5, 176:7, 176:9, 176:18, 

176:20, 176:22, 176:25, 

177:4, 179:7, 179:7, 182:12, 

207:23, 213:23, 223:13, 

225:7, 225:8, 227:16

opportunity 4:9, 4:13, 80:17

oppose 72:9, 196:17

opposed 3:17, 55:5, 71:10, 

102:5, 113:4

opposition 188:20

order 3:13, 158:15

orders 157:18, 184:25, 

231:13, 231:20, 232:12, 

232:14, 233:5, 233:16, 

234:13

ordinarily 226:22

organizations 123:11

originally 20:23, 20:25, 

126:21

orphans 138:8, 205:16

others 9:9, 14:23, 23:22, 

33:10, 35:19, 43:9, 50:25, 

60:16, 71:18, 82:19, 93:8, 

112:19, 120:7, 129:21, 

139:21, 147:14, 150:11, 

160:10, 173:2, 182:7, 191:21, 

196:13, 206:16, 212:5, 221:2

otherwise 138:8, 159:15, 

180:21

ought 3:19

ourselves 33:9

outgoing 14:2

outlook 191:6

outside 28:16, 44:18, 47:22, 

49:1, 66:25, 67:4, 144:12, 

156:21, 157:7, 168:16, 

181:21

overall 55:3, 87:13, 87:13, 

87:24, 95:4

overlook 204:1

Overruled 39:3, 87:11, 133:8

Overseas 49:11, 141:4, 

185:4, 185:5, 185:21, 224:6, 

229:22

own 57:3, 69:1, 70:18, 86:13, 

86:25, 105:18, 117:4, 143:6, 

153:6, 155:12, 165:6, 184:23

owned 47:11

< P >

P. 2:16

packages 178:18

PAGE 233:24, 237:6

pages 59:3, 238:9

paid 140:25, 178:2, 184:10, 

204:2, 218:11

Palestine 25:7, 39:15, 45:10, 

77:25, 85:16, 141:23, 166:22, 

167:9, 174:18, 227:8

Palestine-israeli 15:16, 

155:9

Palestinian 59:22, 224:20

Palestinian-israeli 6:2, 22:7, 

95:23, 96:10

Palestinians 41:8, 98:4, 

111:6, 155:15, 167:9, 190:8

panel 4:13, 101:11, 129:15, 

184:2

pans 206:4

paper 6:23, 54:23, 130:15, 

130:17, 130:20, 151:20, 

162:5, 162:5, 162:5

paragraphs 6:22

parent 215:17

parents 10:9, 108:19, 116:7

particular 78:16, 109:14, 

112:6, 113:23, 122:17, 

138:11, 147:20, 173:16, 

204:6, 222:13

particularly 11:1, 55:9

parties 5:16, 9:11, 14:25, 

24:18, 35:21, 43:10, 51:2, 

60:18, 73:1, 101:18, 102:14, 

113:10, 129:24, 140:1, 

147:16, 151:5, 161:6, 173:5, 

173:17, 176:10, 183:14, 

192:9, 196:22, 205:6, 206:18, 

212:23, 219:19, 221:23

parts 40:17, 85:1, 135:11, 

169:23, 178:17

party 190:7, 203:8

Paso 40:24, 41:2, 41:5, 41:6

Pass 65:23, 149:1

past 4:19, 16:22, 83:9, 

95:17, 96:6, 114:3, 116:7

Patton 201:20

pause 175:16

pay 104:19, 184:12, 211:13, 

216:9, 216:14, 216:16, 

216:19, 219:6, 221:13

payments 128:19

peace 186:6

Pena 72:25, 73:1, 73:6, 78:6, 

78:7, 82:18, 237:17

pencils 14:13

pending 35:7, 234:4

pension 203:1, 203:1

per 105:2

percent 97:15, 99:17, 

187:16, 187:17, 187:22

Perhaps 51:18, 55:11, 58:23, 

69:17, 116:3, 188:8, 197:3, 

213:3

period 147:8, 214:6, 229:16

Periodicals 54:23

permit 133:8, 212:1

Perry 102:13, 102:16, 

107:21, 107:23, 107:25, 

112:13, 234:9, 237:20

Pershing 156:13, 156:15

personal 17:17, 26:25

Personally 75:1, 86:15, 

95:13, 133:17, 141:14, 

163:17

personnel 21:16, 88:20, 

88:21, 90:12

persons 50:11, 101:19, 

225:4, 225:17

pertain 138:2

pertaining 203:5

pertains 111:20, 128:10, 

180:14

PFC 184:19

Ph 24:24, 27:1

Phi 47:5

Philadelphia 31:18

photographing 22:5

phrase 106:3

Physical 22:2, 169:16

physically 168:20, 169:3

pick 54:12

pictures 115:12

pilot 52:16

place 123:7, 186:3, 203:13, 

205:4, 235:16, 236:7

places 64:15, 64:17, 85:17, 

231:24
planes 178:9

planned 57:23

Plano 47:13, 47:15

PLATT 2:33

played 46:22

Plaza 1:47

pleading 153:1

please 25:2, 74:20, 102:20, 

161:5

plumbing 119:13, 229:3

PO 2:26

poin 64:23, 71:21

point 4:24, 18:6, 51:24, 65:1, 

65:21, 68:6, 84:9, 91:17, 

144:14, 150:13, 166:14, 

210:10, 219:18, 221:13

Police 20:21, 20:25, 21:1, 

21:8, 21:9, 21:18, 106:14, 

106:17, 106:19, 106:20, 

106:25, 107:1

policy 188:16

political 52:13

politics 52:7, 52:11, 54:24

pool 101:5, 112:13, 120:1, 

139:12, 160:6

portion 24:2, 80:6, 205:19

pose 69:25, 148:3

position 4:2, 5:6, 33:18, 

155:15, 192:1, 200:15, 211:3, 

221:10, 232:25

positions 55:5, 188:8

possibility 100:5, 231:19

possible 11:2, 33:15, 72:19, 

113:5

possibly 83:25, 215:13, 

216:5

post 141:6, 234:22

Postal 144:5, 144:12

postponed 27:16, 27:17

potential 3:23, 18:23, 19:1, 

113:8

potentially 214:2, 235:20

powders 157:23

practically 22:16

practice 4:10, 4:11, 170:9

practicing 163:24

Prairie 149:11, 149:12

Pre 115:4

pre-depositions 209:3

precise 144:23

preconceptions 62:16, 

62:20

prefer 117:14

pregnant 21:24, 49:14

prejudge 71:7

prejudiced 176:6

prejudices 62:16, 62:18, 

176:1, 176:18

preliminary 3:3

prescribed 238:13

present 18:25, 42:14, 42:15, 

50:4, 80:17, 80:18, 80:19, 

108:18, 111:12, 158:14, 

158:20, 171:16, 219:20

presented 8:21, 42:14, 50:3, 

58:25, 60:9, 92:6, 111:11, 

137:16, 146:7, 171:15, 

218:20, 219:19, 230:13

presenting 128:6

presently 88:19

presents 211:17

press 113:25, 207:1

pressure 186:4

presume 77:20, 106:9, 134:2

presumed 10:19, 28:7, 

65:11, 69:19, 77:10, 77:11, 

106:2, 106:5, 106:6, 106:9, 

124:7, 132:17, 142:25, 

153:14, 153:17, 199:13, 

225:21

presumes 106:24

presumption 11:3, 18:5, 

28:5, 56:4, 65:12, 65:19, 

69:7, 69:8, 69:15, 69:18, 

70:6, 70:7, 71:13, 71:24, 

72:4, 77:7, 85:25, 86:1, 86:6, 

106:2, 132:14, 133:6, 142:20, 

153:13, 153:17, 165:17, 

165:20, 166:4, 166:9, 171:6, 

177:5, 182:11, 182:18, 

182:21, 183:6, 225:15, 

225:25, 226:5

presumption-of-innocence

182:16

Pretty 40:6, 87:20, 94:19, 

94:22, 122:25, 166:10, 

166:14, 176:20, 184:10, 

193:3, 209:18, 224:12

prevent 68:23, 98:7, 211:5

preventative 75:5

prevention 123:3

previous 27:10

previously 3:12, 79:8, 79:9, 

82:8, 109:23, 118:20

primary 229:22

principal 137:2

principle 128:21

principles 137:18, 138:1, 

138:2

print 82:9

printing 67:5

Prior 8:9, 118:16, 135:19, 

157:15

priorities 41:11

prison 172:9

Pritchard 14:24, 15:3, 18:17, 

18:19, 23:22, 23:25, 24:13, 

72:18, 234:5, 237:11

private 17:22

probable 132:12

Probably 6:16, 7:9, 17:21, 

22:12, 41:13, 73:16, 80:14, 

90:14, 96:13, 97:17, 105:14, 

108:13, 120:3, 129:13, 

129:16, 137:15, 138:10, 

139:11, 139:13, 147:5, 147:9, 

150:6, 152:18, 175:17, 

181:25, 188:25, 189:13, 

191:6, 195:1, 195:16, 207:14, 

215:16, 235:18

probation 126:9

problem 9:4, 18:25, 19:10, 

22:23, 23:15, 24:1, 43:2, 

50:19, 62:7, 63:22, 72:22, 

81:12, 81:14, 95:9, 107:3, 

124:4, 124:10, 133:24, 148:5, 

167:20, 185:10, 185:13, 

185:14, 187:19, 187:21, 

189:12, 191:4, 215:14, 227:3, 

233:4

problems 18:23, 37:6, 38:5, 

75:9, 143:8, 185:15, 189:14

procedure 3:15, 4:19, 

137:21

procedures 80:7

proceed 200:3

proceeded 200:20

proceeding 124:25

proceedings 238:6, 238:8

process 110:11, 112:15, 
129:14, 129:16, 133:10, 

139:12, 145:23, 145:25, 

147:6, 147:8, 150:4, 160:6, 

172:20, 172:22, 182:1, 182:2, 

191:13, 191:14, 195:8, 196:7, 

196:8, 206:9, 206:11, 211:22, 

211:24, 220:20, 220:22, 

232:3, 232:4, 233:23

processing 13:24

processor 13:10

product 79:3, 157:22

profession 49:4

professional 33:19, 33:19

progeny 182:19

program 20:24, 76:1, 

119:17, 119:18, 126:4

programs 52:14, 53:10, 54:1

progress 101:16, 235:15, 

235:22

prohibit 60:4

prohibited 59:14, 172:3

prohibiting 50:10

project 13:16, 89:1, 89:16

promise 64:21, 176:2

pronounce 40:4

pronounced 31:6, 139:24

proof 4:12, 13:22, 13:23, 

13:25, 37:2, 37:11, 77:3, 

77:4, 77:5, 86:4, 86:6, 88:8, 

88:10, 123:23, 132:11, 134:4, 

171:7, 171:8, 186:11, 199:17, 

199:21, 205:21, 205:23, 

205:24, 226:17, 226:18, 

226:21, 226:22

proponents 4:19

proposed 3:16

prosecuted 29:12

prosecutor 24:8, 160:17, 

170:1, 182:14

prosecutors 78:11, 88:16, 

98:1, 108:2, 124:21, 134:17, 

143:19, 149:6, 156:1, 168:4, 

177:12, 188:2, 201:12, 210:1, 

217:9, 228:13

prospect 208:2

prospective 112:15

protection 28:20, 29:4, 

77:11, 106:1, 153:4, 166:4

protections 10:13, 17:23, 

27:20, 56:1, 76:23, 105:15, 

132:20, 133:13, 143:2, 

152:19, 153:24, 154:1, 

225:19

protective 132:20, 132:20

prove 18:4, 37:3, 56:3, 

56:10, 63:20, 68:18, 69:2, 

69:12, 70:8, 70:11, 71:14, 

72:6, 77:6, 86:4, 100:9, 

132:15, 165:10, 167:11, 

186:17, 187:9, 187:13, 

189:21

proved 100:1, 208:25

proven 69:21, 70:12, 70:13, 

71:5, 77:25, 99:5, 100:11, 

132:18, 134:6, 153:15, 

180:12, 199:16, 226:8

proves 10:19, 28:8, 68:16, 

77:13, 106:7, 124:8, 142:25, 

153:19, 167:2, 186:17, 187:7, 

205:25, 225:24

provide 23:13, 42:7, 70:6, 

112:4, 234:16

provided 19:25, 23:9, 36:13, 

40:11, 42:24, 128:1, 128:16, 

138:5, 146:22, 158:15, 

171:21, 180:18, 220:13, 

231:4, 235:6

Provident 13:19

provider 178:2, 178:3

provides 8:23

providing 14:10, 23:3, 34:8, 

34:9, 42:18, 50:11, 59:6, 

70:4, 71:12, 80:11, 80:22, 

91:23, 111:21, 128:14, 137:6, 

138:3, 146:12, 164:7, 172:3, 

180:15, 205:10, 210:18, 

219:22, 230:18

proving 134:8

provision 34:16, 34:18, 

50:21, 81:13, 112:6, 159:7, 

231:7

psychology 109:19

public 33:22, 152:9

Publishing 67:10

pump 19:7

punishment 99:1

purely 113:3

purification 66:15, 229:23

purpose 159:24, 212:18

purposes 112:1, 138:9, 

188:18, 231:2

pursue 178:1, 203:21, 

203:22

push 68:21

pushing 62:21

put 53:25, 54:19, 56:19, 

68:13, 68:14, 72:14, 74:8, 

87:9, 95:11, 95:17, 95:24, 

97:6, 116:13, 163:11, 176:2, 

176:5, 176:7, 176:11, 176:21, 

176:24, 183:4, 211:20, 

231:14

putting 116:13

< Q >

qualifications 39:1, 133:2

quality 40:14

questioned 3:23, 4:5, 203:9, 

234:1

questioning 3:4, 3:13, 3:20, 

3:25, 5:12, 71:23, 102:1, 

139:20, 235:12

quickly 218:25

quit 13:11, 102:25

Quite 33:5, 53:14, 57:17, 

96:1, 102:8, 198:8, 198:16

< R >

race 30:6

radicals 94:6

radio 25:20, 61:6, 67:18, 

73:20, 73:24, 80:3, 80:5, 

170:16, 170:20, 173:21, 

173:24, 174:7, 197:16, 

207:20, 210:5, 222:15, 223:6

Radiology 29:18, 32:20

Rainbow 123:8

raise 232:13, 232:16, 232:23

raised 234:7

raising 231:25

Ramadan 17:12

ran 199:4, 203:6, 203:6

range 127:8

rather 3:24, 14:2, 94:6, 

184:24, 214:5, 234:23

Raytheon 79:20, 79:21

reach 128:12

reached 9:25, 136:10
reaches 10:13

reaching 195:9

reaction 99:7, 179:20, 

205:19

reading 6:12, 131:6

reads 59:2, 92:11, 111:14

ready 72:25, 94:25, 113:8, 

151:3, 212:20, 221:21

real 46:21, 86:8, 96:24, 

169:17, 174:4, 194:21

realistic 187:4

realize 187:18, 187:22

reason 91:6, 198:14, 198:14

reasons 71:25, 184:23

rebuilding 39:20, 63:19, 

85:13

recall 222:21

receive 58:1, 58:11, 231:20, 

232:14, 233:5, 233:16

received 145:19, 234:17

receives 234:12

receiving 161:25, 178:16, 

204:1, 232:12

recent 83:9

recently 61:22, 94:24, 

143:24, 197:17, 205:20, 

213:14

Receptionist 38:16

Recess 5:8, 5:14, 101:14, 

101:15, 102:10, 102:12, 

161:3, 161:4, 236:10

recognize 130:14, 192:23, 

193:10, 213:9

recollection 61:19

record 126:4

recorded 9:23

Recovery 123:7

recycle 162:2, 162:3

refer 32:24, 111:15

referred 137:3, 171:17, 

180:21

referring 179:8

refresh 164:25

refunds 178:1

regard 35:5, 42:16, 58:19, 

99:4, 128:13, 146:17, 163:17, 

171:14, 171:20, 191:25

Regarding 34:8, 41:7, 66:6, 

69:7, 75:3, 80:22, 89:1, 

90:22, 100:19, 171:5, 171:6, 

233:5, 233:7

regardless 68:13, 186:18, 

205:2

regards 14:9

regular 106:21

regularly 137:11

regulate 19:5

rehabilitate 72:3, 182:15

rejoin 9:8, 14:23, 23:22, 

35:18, 43:9, 50:25, 60:16, 

71:18, 82:18, 93:8, 112:19, 

120:7, 129:21, 139:21, 

147:14, 150:10, 160:10, 

173:1, 182:7, 191:20, 196:13, 

206:16, 212:5, 221:2

relate 59:6

related 36:22, 79:25, 121:11, 

219:14

relates 50:9

relations 53:20

relationship 53:2, 104:4, 

198:11

relax 183:18

released 234:19, 235:2

Relief 6:7, 9:17, 25:11, 36:8, 

43:17, 51:8, 93:23, 103:7, 

140:11, 186:3, 197:6, 213:5

religions 76:13

religious 46:24, 55:9, 76:2

rely 115:13

relying 139:1

remember 6:12, 8:9, 9:22, 

9:24, 10:2, 15:12, 27:17, 

28:20, 29:2, 36:2, 60:22, 

61:11, 61:20, 83:15, 86:12, 

89:10, 94:4, 113:19, 131:3, 

135:24, 136:1, 136:2, 136:7, 

136:9, 137:15, 137:20, 139:3, 

140:17, 147:22, 149:20, 

153:3, 173:25, 179:8, 201:8, 

204:20, 222:5, 222:23, 

222:24

render 7:5, 14:7, 30:11, 46:9, 

78:2, 90:18, 92:14, 97:12, 

137:20, 167:4, 181:19, 195:5, 

196:16, 211:13, 212:9

rendered 11:25, 77:9

rendition 24:8, 24:9

rent 216:17, 216:18, 216:19

Repeat 176:13, 211:7

report 9:23, 10:4, 235:9, 

235:10

REPORTER 2:40, 98:16, 

238:7, 238:20

reports 80:3, 84:16, 93:14, 

113:25

represent 25:8, 35:23, 

60:21, 113:16, 147:19, 

205:22, 222:2

representatives 53:24, 

80:11

representing 151:10, 

177:13, 201:12, 217:9, 

228:13

represents 187:22

request 3:22

requested 112:25, 235:2

required 70:10

requirements 109:8

requires 162:24

Research 22:8, 33:19, 33:20

researcher 29:17

resent 114:2

reservations 4:20, 65:16, 

65:17

reserve 21:12

reserved 142:17

reserves 223:20, 224:7, 

229:19

reservist 229:14

resident 124:23, 125:9

residential 121:24

resides 234:20

resolve 203:17

resolved 145:3, 145:6

respect 50:10, 117:4

responded 144:18

response 15:15, 22:21, 25:6, 

25:8, 179:20, 182:24

responsibility 59:24, 200:13

Rest 31:20, 33:3, 123:2, 

129:3

rested 14:5, 23:6, 34:6, 

158:9, 205:7

restroom 150:25

result 130:25, 194:1, 207:24

resurgence 94:25

retaliated 208:17

retaliation 99:6, 193:22, 

194:1, 194:10, 194:14, 
194:21, 194:24, 195:13, 

196:15, 208:12, 208:21, 

209:5, 209:7, 212:8

retire 32:6

retired 7:25, 8:4, 19:16, 

21:11, 26:18, 32:1, 32:24, 

66:12, 66:23, 88:19, 88:19, 

89:3, 89:4, 89:6, 89:23, 

152:6, 152:12, 156:3

Retirement 214:21, 217:11, 

217:23, 217:25, 234:11

retribution 95:11, 96:22, 

101:24

return 69:3, 100:2, 159:17, 

181:12, 191:8, 203:22, 206:5, 

218:19, 220:16, 230:2

returned 99:6

returning 63:22

review 233:23

revolting 188:20

revolution 188:25

revolutionary 185:22, 189:4, 

189:5, 189:13

Richard 21:10, 21:14, 82:3

Richardson 6:14, 78:13, 

83:16, 93:20, 93:24, 140:19, 

192:20, 207:8

rights 132:7, 164:22, 186:5, 

225:19

ring 6:11, 9:20, 16:11, 25:15, 

36:14, 43:20, 51:12, 73:15, 

93:24, 103:11, 140:14, 

151:17, 161:20, 184:8, 

184:14, 192:17, 197:12, 

207:1

rings 222:14

RISD 76:1, 76:15

Rise 200:17

rises 150:18

Rm 2:41

road 99:7

robbery 71:10

Roberson 173:4, 173:8, 

177:10, 177:11, 181:24, 

182:9, 234:6, 237:28

Rock 74:3, 103:21

Rockwall 8:15

Rogina 114:18, 117:7, 

117:12, 117:15, 120:1

Romania 27:6, 31:11

room 194:19, 209:10, 228:15

roommate 108:21

Ross 129:9

roundabout 7:9

row 72:20

Rowlett 178:23, 178:24

Royce 118:8, 118:14, 119:7

rules 56:5

run 13:25, 47:25, 122:6, 

216:15

running 203:7

< S >

sacks 162:5

safety 100:4

Safeway 135:7

Saint 202:8, 202:10, 202:21

sales 56:22, 56:24, 57:12

salesman 79:19, 104:8

Salvation 156:23

Sam 117:25

San 185:6

sanctions 190:23, 190:24, 

190:25

Sandra 237:18

satisfaction 203:18

satisfied 69:21

Saudi 27:1

saw 9:23, 61:10, 83:21, 

148:9, 183:2, 184:19

saying 61:4, 66:21, 68:4, 

70:12, 70:19, 71:1, 99:21, 

100:9, 164:17, 179:13, 189:2, 

190:5, 211:9, 221:12, 228:18

says 68:7, 100:20, 111:24, 

171:23, 172:11, 174:16, 

178:2, 187:10, 187:11, 

189:23, 193:20, 221:14, 

234:20

scattered 20:19

scenario 87:13, 235:13, 

235:14

schedule 3:6, 5:11, 204:13

School 14:13, 19:16, 23:11, 

26:18, 34:13, 42:23, 44:11, 

44:16, 49:7, 57:6, 57:8, 

75:24, 76:11, 76:18, 78:13, 

81:7, 82:3, 92:23, 108:25, 

109:2, 131:13, 133:18, 

144:15, 154:22, 154:23, 

155:4, 156:13, 172:8, 205:15, 

228:24, 229:8

schools 152:9, 163:15

scientist 29:18

scope 187:11

screen 83:22

screening 83:11, 83:20

se 105:2

sealed 126:5

search 87:3

Sears 157:9

seat 3:25, 208:24

seated 161:5

secon 3:12

second 3:21, 10:25, 19:12, 

24:9, 80:8, 115:5, 115:12, 

148:10, 187:6

Secondly 81:12, 233:7

Secretary 188:15, 203:15

section 22:2

security 58:1, 58:3, 79:6, 

79:23

seem 228:1

seemed 3:18

Seems 61:21, 83:14

seen 9:21, 10:4, 15:21, 52:3, 

61:6, 62:10, 65:5, 68:14, 

76:10

selected 19:10, 81:3, 90:17, 

100:14, 101:5, 110:17, 

112:14, 120:2, 129:15, 

139:13, 205:2, 218:17

selecting 150:5, 160:6, 

172:21, 182:1, 191:13, 196:7, 

206:10, 211:23, 220:21, 

232:3

selection 83:22, 114:6, 

114:9, 114:14, 145:25, 

220:22

sell 49:12, 157:22

selling 53:11

sells 56:25

semesters 16:20

send 109:5

sending 81:16, 94:5, 179:12, 

211:4, 227:19, 232:22

sense 16:2, 60:8, 96:9, 

96:20, 116:10, 167:15, 186:1, 

186:25, 187:3
sensing 176:21

sent 45:10, 77:24, 206:1, 

227:7, 227:10, 227:12

sentence 7:2, 91:20, 126:1

sequestered 20:6, 20:10

serious 15:17, 37:10, 37:24, 

38:1, 88:9, 153:5, 193:3, 

195:23, 195:23, 195:24, 

226:19, 232:13

serve 18:24, 19:10, 39:1, 

68:7, 81:3, 90:17, 99:15, 

100:14, 107:8, 110:17, 131:7, 

133:2, 136:13, 143:12, 205:1, 

205:5, 234:24

served 92:3, 98:15, 98:22, 

145:17, 157:25, 168:6, 

179:21, 218:7, 230:6, 230:11

Service 8:9, 64:17, 74:19, 

74:23, 88:20, 97:1, 107:13, 

107:16, 110:12, 135:19, 

144:5, 144:12, 162:25, 

195:14, 212:9, 215:2, 216:12, 

218:11, 219:2, 228:16

services 57:1, 231:1

serving 98:7, 126:1

set 20:24, 182:12

setting 55:18, 82:9

seven 48:14, 110:3, 125:11, 

125:12, 141:7, 144:5, 144:6

Seventeen 67:8, 122:7, 

145:1, 145:2, 199:5, 229:12

seventy-one 235:3

Several 13:24, 49:19, 59:3, 

61:21, 131:23, 136:23, 

161:16, 169:23, 209:7, 

215:14, 222:4

Shakes 19:3, 36:25, 42:10, 

42:12, 151:12

SHAPIRO 1:29, 5:7

Shawn 113:13, 237:21

shed 186:7, 189:15

sheets 118:3, 162:6, 178:4

shelter 157:3

Sherman 78:25

Shield 177:15

shift 125:10, 125:11

shifts 142:15

shipping 178:16

shook 98:19

shop 82:9, 199:23

shoplifting 37:15

short 150:24

shortly 171:16

Shouldn't 164:21

show 33:12, 69:11, 189:21, 

233:8

showed 13:8, 72:3, 118:3, 

159:13, 159:16, 181:6, 

181:12, 191:23, 220:12, 

220:17

shown 39:18, 72:15, 77:24, 

78:20, 102:6, 156:18, 183:7, 

238:8

shows 13:9, 178:5, 220:2, 

234:21, 234:22

Shreveport 202:9

Shukri 1:40

sic 165:22, 204:14, 211:17

side 55:1, 55:1, 55:3, 72:7, 

86:16, 87:1, 100:7, 170:24, 

186:23

sides 14:5, 15:17, 16:4, 23:5, 

34:6, 42:14, 50:2, 55:4, 59:1, 

59:24, 80:16, 87:4, 92:6, 

111:11, 128:6, 146:7, 158:9, 

171:14, 179:24, 186:1, 

228:16, 230:13

Sigma 47:5, 47:5

significant 221:7

Simental 35:20, 40:2, 40:4, 

43:8, 237:13

similar 217:18

simply 211:3, 220:3, 233:15

single 215:16

sister 11:12, 12:16, 12:20

sisters 109:10

sit 38:2, 41:12, 68:24, 72:20, 

77:12, 77:20, 84:20, 88:1, 

114:20, 117:1, 153:16, 

159:24, 194:13, 194:19, 

223:13

sits 77:8

sitting 44:16, 77:18, 84:5, 

84:10, 106:9, 164:11

situation 26:7, 26:8, 58:20, 

60:4, 86:23, 90:21, 95:1, 

97:15, 98:3, 110:14, 111:5, 

114:14, 159:19, 179:11, 

188:4, 199:6, 203:21, 204:3, 

218:15, 222:25

Six 8:1, 27:18, 49:13, 96:4, 

126:18, 162:6, 202:2

sixteen 118:14

sixty 15:21, 136:19

skills 122:3, 125:23, 125:23

sky 44:18

slight 97:11

slipping 157:20

Slyvester 237:27

small 80:6, 126:14, 163:13

Smith 60:17, 61:15, 65:25, 

66:1, 69:18, 71:18, 71:21, 

126:14, 151:3, 151:4, 151:7, 

155:22, 155:24, 160:5, 

160:13, 160:16, 234:5, 234:6, 

237:16, 237:26

smoke 37:19

soaps 157:23

soccer 9:1, 14:13, 34:13, 

50:16, 59:12, 128:18, 158:25, 

206:3

social 122:21, 122:22

society 125:25

soft 4:7, 72:22

softly 25:1

sole 19:21

solely 139:1

solve 189:14

Somebody 29:3, 68:21, 

94:14, 97:8, 105:18, 106:2, 

106:5, 125:13, 143:4, 143:5, 

153:5, 153:24, 158:15, 166:8, 

171:21, 184:24, 185:16, 

186:13, 189:21, 190:15, 

193:19, 211:19

somehow 63:16, 88:8

someone 38:22, 86:24, 87:7, 

119:14, 139:4, 158:21, 

159:19, 188:15, 200:5, 

205:22

Sometime 40:10, 163:15

sometimes 19:8, 62:4, 92:8, 

115:24, 171:17, 200:14

Somewhat 6:2, 53:24, 55:12, 

57:18, 98:4

somewhere 29:13, 77:17, 

95:10, 141:4, 143:9, 190:10, 

229:8

son 47:17, 49:14, 64:5, 

143:24, 144:24, 235:8
son-in-law 64:11

sons 218:2

soon 5:3

sorry 8:18, 8:18, 19:18, 35:1, 

36:16, 71:3, 118:7, 176:15, 

178:13, 211:8, 213:20

sort 30:12, 53:17, 130:24, 

208:12

sorter 14:1

sorts 105:5

sound 75:13, 176:8

Sounds 97:9, 102:4, 122:16, 

151:21, 186:8, 188:3, 188:7, 

193:3, 194:22, 195:12, 

195:20, 200:12, 221:4

source 22:9, 207:20

South 82:12, 82:14, 177:19

Southwest 21:22

Southwestern 26:19, 29:18, 

32:16

Spanish 39:7, 115:10, 

115:18, 115:19, 116:8, 

116:17

speaker 116:9

speaking 7:18, 148:8, 

155:18, 207:10, 228:6

Special 49:18

specialist 185:3

specialize 109:19

specialty 109:16

specific 55:7

specifically 6:10, 14:4, 23:4, 

25:15, 42:8, 51:11, 73:14, 

80:12, 104:17, 128:2, 130:13, 

137:7, 140:14, 171:20, 

197:11

speculation 44:21, 181:18, 

233:6

spend 33:3, 231:3

spent 112:1, 112:3, 128:20, 

138:6, 138:8, 159:15, 172:6, 

172:10, 189:25, 205:13, 

205:16, 205:17, 206:2, 206:3, 

220:4, 220:5, 220:7

spoke 80:8, 138:22

spoken 4:7, 72:22, 96:24, 

104:15

sports 204:16, 204:18

Spring 177:17

stable 55:18

stand 3:24, 4:1, 46:1, 86:18, 

87:22

standard 4:10, 30:22, 30:22, 

226:23

stands 79:10

start 73:25, 74:7, 83:22, 

94:25, 156:9, 199:16

started 17:5, 119:12, 119:15, 

119:18, 123:4, 200:18, 

202:20, 235:18, 235:21

starting 65:17, 73:17, 236:3

starts 204:14

starving 17:13

State 5:3, 41:8, 44:15, 47:10, 

48:23, 55:14, 60:2, 98:22, 

166:13, 168:21, 170:1, 

188:15

stated 137:2, 191:5, 235:3, 

235:7

statement 42:20, 69:17, 

90:19, 91:1, 114:6, 188:5, 

204:22, 233:8

station 25:21, 73:22, 73:25, 

74:2, 74:3, 174:2, 174:7

stationed 64:9, 201:22

Statute 180:5, 180:6, 230:20

statutes 23:7, 59:6, 138:2, 

180:8

stay 3:6, 125:14, 216:2

stayed 13:12, 144:9

steadfast 176:9

Steakley 79:17

stenotypy 238:7

step 200:3

stepkids 127:6, 127:7

stepson 34:22

stereotypical 104:10, 104:12

Sterrett 146:3

steward 198:21, 198:24, 

198:25, 199:23, 200:4

sticks 44:25, 141:20

store 35:12, 135:8, 135:10, 

135:12, 144:16

stores 156:25

story 87:2, 94:22, 186:2

straight 229:18

strapped 203:14

strategies 115:12

Street 1:35, 2:7, 2:41, 78:25, 

123:9

strength 55:4

strictly 5:12

strike 45:15, 182:9, 194:9

strong 22:8, 176:4, 176:9, 

223:13

strongly 30:15, 30:17

stuck 101:25

student 22:12, 35:11

students 29:22

study 169:16

studying 141:24, 142:1

stuff 22:5, 47:25, 65:5, 94:4, 

96:2, 122:24, 165:24, 170:13, 

188:23, 190:25, 213:22, 

215:6, 219:10, 223:24

stupid 16:5

subject 120:5

submit 102:2, 160:12, 

191:22, 196:14, 235:4

successfully 126:4

sue 178:2

suffer 100:14, 221:5

sufficient 153:18

sugar 19:1

suicide 206:3

Suite 1:47, 2:17, 2:35

summary 90:10

summations 92:7, 171:17, 

230:15

summer 216:1

Summit 2:35

summon 236:8

summoned 145:24, 168:9, 

210:12, 236:8

summons 145:20

Sunday 154:22, 154:23, 

155:3, 222:18

sundown 17:14

Sunnyvale 34:2, 66:15

superintendent 154:22, 

154:24

supervise 215:20

supervises 178:16

supervisor 162:1, 178:5, 

178:15

supplied 203:9

supplies 34:13, 42:23, 

42:23, 59:11, 59:12, 81:7, 

81:8, 92:22, 112:2, 112:2, 

158:24, 172:7, 172:8, 186:14, 
190:24, 205:14, 205:15, 

220:5

supply 185:2

supported 39:13, 39:22, 

51:18, 63:11, 63:15, 63:21, 

85:6, 174:12

supporting 45:14, 51:17, 

166:15, 166:16, 187:1, 

211:11

supports 216:23

suppose 110:2, 234:11

supposed 23:8, 50:6, 52:1, 

59:4, 61:13, 94:7, 94:16, 

97:7, 97:8, 141:3

surgery 235:8

surprised 121:1, 121:3, 

121:4, 121:6

suspect 189:6

suspicious 175:21, 182:13

sweating 19:4

Syria 51:17

syringes 206:4

system 49:7, 121:21, 124:7, 

152:21, 164:23, 165:22, 

171:3

< T >

talked 12:23, 28:24, 182:13, 

209:6

talks 172:2

Tampa 2:27

tapes 148:14

taps 22:20, 22:22

taught 223:24

tax 71:11

tea 185:6

Teach 49:17, 76:15, 115:3, 

115:12, 154:25

teacher 8:3, 49:6, 109:21, 

114:24, 115:2

teachers 76:6

Teaching 49:16, 122:3, 

125:23, 125:23, 155:3

tech 78:21

technical 4:24

technically 15:24, 184:1

technician 66:9, 78:21, 

131:16, 135:1

technique 199:23

technology 79:2, 119:11

teenagers 17:6

Television 6:5, 90:6, 104:20, 

114:1, 170:17, 170:20, 

173:21, 210:8

tells 14:6, 23:7, 91:4, 91:7, 

91:10, 93:2, 100:22, 100:24, 

171:5, 172:2, 180:5, 181:1, 

189:10, 190:12, 219:20

Ten 8:13, 13:19, 79:22, 

97:15, 99:16, 115:2, 136:17, 

179:2, 187:16, 187:17

tender 7:18, 48:3

TERESA 1:44

term 81:1, 111:18, 136:19

terms 18:25, 53:18, 55:18, 

111:5, 115:9, 171:23, 172:2, 

175:25, 204:10, 233:4

Terrell 162:21, 168:21, 

169:10, 170:8

territory 155:7

terrorism-related 84:2, 

226:12

terroristic 105:2

terrorists 71:6, 83:18, 223:8

testified 183:23

testify 18:4, 27:22, 27:24, 

27:25, 56:2, 56:2, 76:24, 

86:13, 86:25, 87:16, 88:4, 

88:5, 90:23, 91:6, 100:20, 

105:17, 106:20, 124:24, 

142:8, 143:5, 152:22, 153:6, 

165:1, 165:5, 171:8

testifying 105:18, 105:24, 

106:21, 106:21, 143:5, 184:2, 

211:2

testimony 14:5, 60:3, 60:5, 

87:25, 211:1, 230:13

TEXAS 1:2, 1:33, 1:36, 2:18, 

2:36, 2:42, 8:15, 8:16, 18:21, 

82:12, 82:15, 117:24, 136:14, 

140:20, 146:2, 169:15, 

173:20, 234:21, 234:23, 

238:21

theft 144:19

themselves 55:18, 72:6, 

142:8

therapeutic 121:25, 122:5, 

125:22

therapy 122:1

thereabouts 143:10

thinking 39:5, 62:6, 109:17, 

114:13, 125:24

third 117:20

thirteen 143:25, 149:7

Thomas 237:29

though 70:21, 70:23, 71:9, 

100:10, 132:14, 167:7, 

195:12

thoughts 37:22, 86:6, 

213:18, 225:6

thousand 15:24

thre 207:14

Three 8:11, 10:4, 13:5, 13:6, 

49:20, 58:18, 108:7, 122:10, 

125:11, 125:12, 148:2, 202:1, 

202:2, 204:15, 204:23, 216:5, 

218:2, 229:15

throughout 94:19

throw 5:1, 228:2

throws 175:19, 175:20

thrust 200:15

thunder 44:18

Thursday 136:23, 136:24, 

235:9

TI 78:24

ties 55:9

tight 5:11

tiny 23:19, 24:1

title 77:16

today 3:6, 19:22, 36:5, 

68:24, 68:25, 73:17, 74:1, 

77:12, 101:19, 114:6, 120:15, 

130:2, 138:15, 197:13, 216:1, 

219:7, 233:19, 233:22, 234:1, 

234:18, 235:2, 235:12, 

235:15, 235:20, 236:8

together 53:25, 74:8, 

128:11, 209:10, 235:24

tomorrow 235:1, 235:2, 

235:16, 235:21, 235:22, 

236:8, 236:11

took 10:9, 53:18, 119:17, 

203:15, 238:7

Toons 15:17

toothpaste 157:24

total 202:2, 233:5

totally 39:8, 68:8

touch 91:17, 138:21

touched 136:25, 189:17
touching 42:3

tour 224:5

tours 52:19

toward 190:20, 225:12

towards 225:9

Tower 2:34

towers 16:13

town 10:8, 20:15, 135:11, 

163:13, 169:25, 235:8

toys 174:19, 175:11

train 73:21, 73:22, 73:25, 

231:13

training 122:17, 201:17, 

231:22, 232:15, 233:17, 

234:13

transcribed 238:8

transcript 238:10, 238:12

transcripts 148:14

transferred 201:18

Transit 202:23

translate 39:7

translated 38:23

translating 38:22, 139:5

translation 115:9, 115:24, 

116:3, 116:7, 116:14, 139:2

translator 76:16, 139:2

transmitted 236:5

travel 33:7, 57:17

traveled 52:21

Treasury 188:16

treat 76:13, 185:11, 185:12, 

185:16

treated 145:5, 185:16

treatment 32:5, 123:9, 

131:14, 131:15

Tremont 214:19, 217:11, 

234:11

trial 10:15, 17:24, 47:20, 

52:1, 55:25, 77:8, 77:23, 

94:25, 97:7, 105:19, 106:9, 

106:20, 136:5, 136:6, 142:7, 

143:6, 143:9, 145:16, 145:17, 

153:5, 165:6, 174:3, 179:23, 

180:13, 186:9, 186:10, 195:6, 

209:7, 215:13, 216:4, 218:24, 

219:18, 219:18, 221:7, 

230:12

trials 142:18

tried 72:2

trip 57:23

trouble 17:6, 165:19

true 39:6, 98:13, 127:21, 

181:10, 188:10, 188:11, 

193:4, 200:22, 238:10

truth 26:6, 87:4, 223:15

Try 4:4, 4:7, 22:9, 72:21, 

72:22, 76:3, 76:11, 76:13, 

76:14, 91:19, 92:14, 182:15, 

183:18, 187:4, 198:15, 

218:25

Trying 62:15, 62:18, 76:13, 

87:4, 107:12, 136:7, 160:17, 

166:15, 186:6, 188:18, 

225:10, 227:25

tumor 32:21, 32:22

turban 104:14

Turn 162:4, 201:20, 203:23

turned 110:20, 180:20

TV 9:23, 41:11, 61:6, 61:16, 

61:24, 62:5, 90:7, 111:8, 

185:25, 207:20, 219:10, 

222:15, 222:19, 223:6

tw 191:15

twelve 8:13, 122:7, 123:4, 

204:15

Twenty 53:5, 82:8, 127:10, 

169:2, 217:22

Twenty-five 20:10, 21:12, 

41:20, 41:21, 162:13

twenty-four 125:14, 127:9

twenty-one 41:21

twenty-three 21:11

Two 32:9, 41:19, 79:15, 

91:20, 96:12, 101:18, 108:7, 

108:7, 127:17, 127:18, 136:9, 

142:3, 144:24, 172:22, 182:3, 

186:1, 194:9, 196:9, 201:14, 

202:5, 206:12, 211:25, 218:5, 

220:23, 231:22, 231:23, 

232:5, 232:15

two-month 136:22

type 22:20, 22:23, 23:12, 

23:14, 49:4, 56:24, 67:3, 

70:5, 70:25, 81:9, 89:11, 

92:16, 92:23, 92:24, 118:10, 

122:4, 146:15, 146:21, 

157:22, 159:2, 168:18, 170:9, 

170:17, 183:7, 217:18, 

219:25, 229:1

types 164:11, 164:16, 

171:11, 179:17, 220:7, 

220:15

< U >

ultimate 45:8, 45:24, 167:2

Ultimately 17:20, 34:4, 44:19

unanimously 69:20

uncertain 148:3

undergraduate 52:10, 58:8

understanding 84:1, 175:25, 

203:10

understands 85:2

understood 72:4, 84:12, 

84:22, 84:23, 160:16

Unemployed 103:3, 107:7, 

234:10

unequivocal 182:22

unfamiliar 197:15

unflexible 204:14

unfriendly 198:12

Union 89:14, 89:25, 90:2, 

90:3, 198:19, 200:6, 202:22, 

202:24, 203:10, 203:13, 

203:13, 203:23, 203:24, 

204:2

unit 21:25, 201:15, 201:17, 

201:19, 233:17

University 41:21

unless 10:19, 28:8, 30:19, 

69:20, 76:24, 106:7, 153:18, 

202:5

Until 10:19, 11:17, 13:2, 

19:23, 28:8, 69:20, 70:13, 

71:4, 77:9, 77:12, 102:11, 

106:7, 106:11, 112:15, 124:7, 

129:16, 129:17, 132:17, 

134:3, 134:6, 142:25, 147:10, 

153:15, 156:10, 172:23, 

182:3, 191:15, 196:9, 199:16, 

206:12, 211:25, 220:23, 

225:23, 225:24, 226:8, 232:5, 

236:11

updated 79:8

upsetting 44:14, 45:17

upstairs 21:3, 21:6

uptown 126:15

Using 61:12, 115:12, 116:6

UT 26:19, 29:18, 32:16

UTD 42:1
utilized 3:15

< V >

vaguely 9:22

Valley 177:18

valves 40:16, 40:18

variety 198:6

various 55:8, 90:1, 94:21

vary 39:9

verdict 7:5, 10:14, 11:25, 

14:8, 30:11, 46:9, 63:22, 

69:4, 77:9, 78:2, 92:14, 99:5, 

99:19, 99:20, 100:3, 101:25, 

128:12, 136:11, 137:20, 

159:17, 167:5, 167:13, 

180:13, 181:12, 181:19, 

186:19, 191:8, 195:5, 195:6, 

195:10, 196:16, 206:5, 

211:14, 212:9, 218:19, 

220:16

versa 39:8

VERSUS 1:10, 25:11, 51:8, 

73:10, 106:21, 120:18, 130:9, 

137:3, 151:13, 161:15, 184:4, 

192:16, 197:6, 213:4

vests 206:3

viable 55:18

vice 39:8

victims 21:4, 21:5

Vietnam 52:17

view 55:12, 149:22

views 58:19, 60:4

Village 125:21

violate 126:7

violated 158:21, 189:21

violation 9:3, 34:15, 128:20, 

138:9, 172:13, 180:23, 

181:11, 190:14, 205:18, 

220:8, 231:6

violence 21:4

Virgil 182:20

vision 79:5

visit 33:9

visuals 115:13

voice 102:22, 130:5

VOIR 1:17

VOLUME 1:16

Voluntary 126:2, 126:3

volunteer 154:18, 154:19, 

162:17, 162:22, 163:8, 215:5

volunteered 150:16, 232:17

vote 39:23, 187:14

votes 199:5

vs 182:19, 182:20

< W >

wait 17:18

Wake 58:12

Wall 2:7

wanted 3:7, 4:1, 5:1, 69:25, 

75:6, 75:20, 101:18, 138:21, 

172:13, 175:6, 228:19, 

234:16, 235:11

wants 119:14

War 96:4, 190:25

Warehouse 157:10, 157:17, 

228:25, 229:1, 229:7

warrant 22:21, 22:23

Washing 157:23

Washington 129:10

watch 41:10, 101:8, 111:8, 

112:18, 120:6, 129:19, 

139:17, 147:13, 150:9, 160:9, 

172:25, 182:6, 191:18, 

196:11, 206:14, 212:2, 221:1, 

232:8

watched 83:2

watches 110:7

watching 96:2, 222:19

Water 32:4, 33:23, 66:13, 

66:15, 229:23

ways 64:5, 101:6, 117:4, 

182:10, 189:14

weapons 186:24

week 33:2, 120:4, 129:17, 

131:23, 136:22, 139:14, 

147:9, 150:6, 236:1

weeks 108:7, 108:8, 194:9, 

231:22, 232:15

weigh 97:3, 107:12

welcome 18:15, 105:24, 

155:20

welfare 128:19, 203:1

West 39:15, 85:17, 94:17, 

96:6, 129:2, 227:11

Whatever 6:23, 42:15, 50:3, 

50:14, 50:14, 68:13, 91:6, 

99:23, 105:3, 111:7, 146:4, 

146:19, 162:24, 171:5, 199:6, 

199:7, 202:6, 207:20, 225:12, 

228:1, 229:7

whatsoever 124:12, 193:13

Whenever 54:22, 110:20

wherever 163:6, 211:20

whether 3:14, 23:18, 45:5, 

45:9, 45:10, 45:20, 45:20, 

67:22, 75:17, 87:14, 95:2, 

95:3, 95:7, 97:8, 112:16, 

113:22, 114:20, 138:22, 

146:18, 158:23, 160:19, 

166:23, 189:7, 204:22, 

208:25, 230:1, 231:1, 233:4, 

234:8

Whiskey 229:23

White 45:5, 103:21

whoever 197:24

whole 85:2, 130:22, 187:22, 

191:6, 212:17

whom 118:5, 157:19

widows 138:7, 205:15

wife 8:2, 21:8, 21:11, 21:19, 

47:2, 47:21, 49:1, 56:21, 

95:20, 96:25, 126:11, 127:12, 

156:17, 156:18, 168:16, 

170:15

William 237:9, 237:15, 

237:20

willing 4:7, 4:21

wire 22:20

wise 85:3

within 8:12, 21:10, 113:3

Witness 45:25, 98:9, 106:21

witnesses 42:15, 50:3, 60:1, 

80:18, 171:15, 179:24

wives 157:2

woman 16:21, 24:7

wondering 36:4

word 22:8, 30:10, 45:1, 85:8, 

116:6, 116:6, 230:20, 230:20

word-for-word 116:14

words 34:12, 38:23, 54:14, 

105:25, 115:24, 116:1, 

137:18, 160:18, 176:4, 180:7, 

183:4, 230:21, 230:21, 

232:20

worker 27:1, 122:22

Workers 21:5, 90:3

Working 16:21, 53:10, 
53:19, 123:5, 157:15, 202:20, 

214:22, 228:22

works 8:6, 33:22, 40:13, 

56:22, 57:4, 79:4, 89:2, 

126:3, 126:13, 170:16, 

170:20, 170:21, 186:12, 

198:7

world 15:22, 55:21, 68:9, 

85:1, 194:7, 215:3

worldwide 45:19

Worried 193:25, 208:17

worry 3:10, 209:6

worst 235:14

Worth 2:36

wrapped 96:17

write 98:16

writer 170:24

writing 128:8

written 14:6, 111:13

wrote 34:25

Wyoming 109:24, 110:5

< Y >

year 31:15, 31:19, 32:7, 

49:6, 49:8, 49:13, 49:20, 

82:4, 89:9, 89:17, 89:17, 

104:3, 104:3, 143:25, 144:23, 

144:23, 198:17, 202:16, 

203:4, 224:6

yearbooks 67:6

yesterday 222:18

York 2:8

young 16:21, 136:8

younger 41:22, 110:4

yourself 18:3, 27:22, 27:24, 

32:24, 86:19, 108:22, 145:8, 

154:13, 165:2, 165:3, 200:15, 

216:23

Youth 125:21, 125:23

< Dates >

july 16, 2007 1:13, 1:13, 1:13