IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( OCTOBER 21, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 22 OF 37

______________________________________________________________

STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 (214) 753-2349

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

LARA BURNS

Direct By MR. JONAS............................................. 11

Government's Exhibits

Government's Exhibits Page

Islamic Center of Gaza Summary Admitted into Evidence 13

HLF Search No. 102 Admitted into Evidence 165

Mushtaha Search No. 5 Admitted into Evidence 202

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THE COURT: Good morning.

All right. Starting with the objections to Agent Burns' 

second round of testimony, I have looked at the ones where you 

had specific objections, and then through some of the others, 

and I am going to overrule the objections. 

I think you have withdrawn No. 9 at this time? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. 

THE COURT: Ashqar Search No. 9 and No. 7, you are 

going to limit it to the parts already admitted? 

MR. JONAS: If I even use it with Agent Burns.

THE COURT: And with respect to InfoCom No. 68 and 

those three -- That would be HLF InfoCom No. 68 and then HLF 

86, 183 and 184, I am overruling those objections as well. 

Those are HLF records and they were found there and they made 

them. I think the Government is entitled to use them as they 

are. So I will overrule those objections.

Any other issues on those, Ms. Duncan? 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, I understand your ruling on 

InfoCom Search No. 68. Can I clarify the record a little bit 

about that videotape? 

THE COURT: Sure. 

MS. DUNCAN: The very beginning of the videotape, 

and I don't know if Your Honor has seen it.

THE COURT: I have not seen the tape. I didn't have 

access to that. I was going on the basis of what -- 

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MS. DUNCAN: I actually snippeted it up so you can 

see what it looks like, but the very beginning of the tape are 

the video footage of different demonstrations. I am not sure 

that they are all in Palestine. I am not sure that they are 

even the same. So what you will see are different protesters 

and a scene of people walking on the American flag and people 

burning the American flag, and a blank spot where that clip 

ends, and then another clip will start. 

And in the middle there appears to be maybe an election 

or people are signing little pieces of paper, and there is a 

box that looks like they are putting it in which looks to be 

completely unrelated to those other videos. 

So then that sort of starts and stop of different 

protests, and then the voting starts, and then it starts this 

recording of the opening of a library that was funded by the 

Holy Land Foundation. 

So this is not a video that was made by the Holy Land 

Foundation. This is a video that was made by someone in 

Palestine who was copying onto a tape a video of the opening 

of the library. So the two segments, the protesting and it 

looks like election to me, or people signing something, and 

the opening of the library, those are very separate things. 

And the only part of it that pertains to the Holy Land 

Foundation is the opening of the library. 

And so with the two tapes -- I looked at the two tapes 

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and they are identical, but I think it is -- There is a note 

attached to one of the videos that says, "Please make me two 

copies of the opening of the library." I can't remember the 

exact wording but, "the stuff at the beginning, I don't want 

it," or "The protests at the beginning, I don't want it." 

So I think it is clear that the video itself was kept in 

the Holy Land offices because it showed the opening of a major 

public library. We have heard testimony about it. That was 

funded by the Holy Land Foundation. And when you watch the 

actual video itself with the stopping and the starting, it is 

clear that someone just recorded that opening on a tape that 

had other stuff on it, but the two are completely different. 

And it wasn't -- there is no evidence that a Holy Land person 

made the tape. 

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Mr. Jonas, do you 

want to address that? 

MR. JONAS: Factually she is accurate, except for 

one thing. I think the very first demonstration they show the 

burning of an American flag and Israeli flag chanting of death 

to America is a Hamas rally. I think Agent Burns can testify 

to that based upon the head gear worn by the participants in 

this rally. So I think there is a nexus in this case. 

We don't know who made the tape. It was found within the 

HLF records at InfoCom, and there is that note on there one of 

the copies. But the fact that they had this tape, and whoever 

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is making it for them, if they themselves are not making it 

themselves, and we don't know, goes to show the type of 

material they are collecting, the type of people they are 

dealing with. It is all part of the conspiracy, their intent 

and knowledge. So we do think it is relevant.

THE COURT: I had understood, of course, your 

argument from your written motions and their response, so that 

was the reason for my ruling. It still is an HLF record, and 

I think they are entitled to show it as is.

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I would register an 

objection to Agent Burns opining that it is an Hamas rally. I 

don't think she is an expert. She said she can't identify 

anything on these videotapes. She couldn't even identify the 

stone-throwing was the Intifada. So I think that would be 

improper.

THE COURT: That will be overruled. She may give 

her opinion based on her experience and understanding.

MR. DRATEL: Just to be clear, I would register a 

403 objection on that.

THE COURT: I understand 403 is really over all of 

these exhibits. That is there. And certainly I understood it 

with respect to these, and then the applications that had the 

references to the saying. But, again, as I said, these are 

HLF records. They are in their office. They are maintaining 

them there, so I think the Government gets to show them. I 

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don't think you can come back in and clean them up for the 

jury. I think these come in as they are. They are entitled 

to do that.

MR. DRATEL: I think the Court has kept out some 

other types of stuff like that, and I think this gets us into 

the danger area.

THE COURT: As I stated, because these are HLF 

records, rather than something that someone else was doing. 

These are their records. I think the Government is entitled 

to show them as they are. And that is the distinction that I 

made in my mind in terms of the difference in rulings that I 

made.

MS. DUNCAN: And Your Honor, we would like to burn 

the full video into a DVD and make it into a court exhibit 

just to preserve our record on this issue.

THE COURT: Sure. Remind me to do that and we will 

make that part of the record.

Any other issues with regard to these exhibits or 

anything else with Agent Burns that we need to address? 

MR. DRATEL: Not with Agent Burns.

THE COURT: We are moving on to other things. We 

have a few minutes.

MR. DRATEL: With respect to Mr. Shorbagi's 

testimony, I would move, with respect to Mr. El-Mezain, to 

strike it, and for an instruction to that effect on collateral 

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estoppel and double jeopardy grounds.

THE COURT: That is overruled. 

Anything else that we need to address? 

MR. JONAS: Very briefly. There is one 

demonstrative exhibit I am going to show through Agent Burns 

that is being created. I informed the Defense about that, and 

I believe I described what it is supposed to be. 

THE COURT: Do you have it with you? 

MR. JONAS: I don't. It is still being worked on. 

I don't think I will get to it until the end of her testimony.

THE COURT: What is it? 

MR. JONAS: There is two exhibits that we are 

admitting. One is a list of victims of the Ibrahimi massacre 

at the mosque there by Baruch Goldstein that has been 

testified about. HLF supported some of those victims. 

And then there is a U.N. document that lists out -- I 

don't know if it is called an official list, but it is a list 

of the victims as well as other people who have died in 

Palestine and the West Bank and Gaza, I am not sure exactly 

where, and we want to put both those lists on a poster board.

THE COURT: So one list will be the list -- 

MR. JONAS: Of people that the HLF supported that 

died in the massacre.

THE COURT: In that one particular massacre, or 

multiple? 

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MR. JONAS: Per their records.

THE COURT: Per whose records.

MR. JONAS: HLF records, people died in that 

massacre --

THE COURT: That they are supporting? 

MR. JONAS: Correct. And then there is a U.N list 

of people who died with many of the same people, and we want 

to have those two side by side. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I may have missed this 

but I am not sure how the U.N. list comes in, what foundation 

is for that.

THE COURT: Do you want to address that? 

MR. JONAS: First of all, there is a certification 

from the U.N. that that is an authentic -- 

THE COURT: That accompanies the list you have? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, the actual exhibit. And in terms 

of -- If there is a hearsay objection, there is case law out 

there that talks about U.N. documents being public records. I 

can pull up the cases if the Court wants. There is one case 

in particular that is a reverse. There is a U.N. document 

that says, "We have got nothing," and there is that hearsay 

exception that says lack of public record. So because this 

document has something, we are saying it is the converse of 

that. 

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THE COURT: Ms. Hollander, anything else on that, 

then? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Can I have just a minute, since we 

have a few minutes? 

THE COURT: Yes. We have a few minutes. 

Why don't we be in recess until we get -- the juror shows 

up. We will be in back.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed.

Mr. Jonas? 

And Agent Burns, you are still under the oath you took 

when you first got here.

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.

LARA BURNS,

Testified on direct examination by Mr. Jonas as follows:

Q. Good morning, Agent Burns. 

A. Good morning. 

Q. Welcome back. 

A. Thanks.

Q. When we ended your last testimony a few weeks ago you had 

testified about payment schedules to certain zakat and 

charitable committees in the West Bank and Gaza. Do you 

recall that?

A. I do.

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Q. Okay. Did you review the body of material that you 

accumulated through the investigation--bank accounts, search 

warrant material, et cetera--to see if there were other 

connections between the Holy Land Foundation and these zakat 

committees separate and apart from the financial connections 

that you testified about?

A. I did.

Q. And approximately how much material did you cull from 

your body of material that goes to the connections between the 

HLF and zakat committees?

A. A large number of documents, videotapes, wiretaps.

Q. Have you created a summary schedule per committee that 

summarizes all this material and this connection between the 

HLF and some of these committees?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you create one schedule per committee?

A. I did.

Q. Would those schedules assist the jury in understanding 

your testimony?

A. They will.

Q. Do you have before you binders of the schedules as well 

as other material?

A. I have the underlying materials, not the schedules.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, if I may approach the 

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witness? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the first schedule -- Withdrawn. 

Do you have the Islamic Center of Gaza schedule?

A. I do.

Q. What is that based upon?

A. Search warrant material, financial records, videotapes, 

wiretaps, things like that.

Q. Is some of the underlying documentation already in 

evidence?

A. It is.

Q. And is some not?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I offer into 

evidence the schedule known as Islamic Center of Gaza Summary. 

THE COURT: The previous objections? 

MS. MORENO: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Those are admitted. 

MR. JONAS: Before we put on this particular 

schedule on the screen, just to remind all of us of the 

financial schedules, if we can put the schedule of payments to 

the Islamic Center of Gaza on the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And Agent Burns, I understand the titles 

of these two schedules are very similar. One is called 

payments to and one is just called the name of the committee. 

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Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, can you just remind us how this 

schedule is set up?

A. Yes. This is again the financial schedule which shows 

the payments from the Holy Land Foundation to the Islamic 

Center of Gaza. And I believe this is the wrong financial 

schedule on the screen for what we are looking at. 

MR. JONAS: It will just take a moment, Your Honor. 

If I can have the elmo.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. Agent Burns, is that the right 

schedule?

A. It is.

Q. And can you walk us through this chart real quick?

A. Yes. Again, this schedule reflects the payments from the 

Holy Land Foundation to the Islamic Center of Gaza. It is 

prepared in chronological order with the date in the first 

column, the source of the payment, which in this case on this 

schedule is the Holy Land Foundation every time, the 

authorization column indicating if there were a wire transfer 

or a check, and if a specific individual were involved with 

that particular transaction their name will be included in 

that authorization column. The next column, if we can scoot 

it over --

Q. I understand we may be able to put it on the computer. 

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A. Okay.

MR. JONAS: There we go. Enlarge the top half, 

please. 

THE WITNESS: The next column is the amount, which 

will be the amount of the check or the wire transfer. The 

following column is the destination. And on this particular 

schedule that recipient is always going to be the Islamic 

Center of Gaza, also known as the Islamic Complex. And the 

final column, again, is the exhibit number and page number so 

that if you want to go and look at the actual item that proves 

what this states, you can go to that exhibit number and that 

page number and find that item.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the first payment made to the 

Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. April 26, 1989.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to the last page, page 3.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the last payment?

A. July 28th, 1994.

Q. And how much in total was the Islamic Center of Gaza paid 

by the HLF?

A. $733,245 plus $5600 Israeli shekels.

MR. JONAS: Let's look behind one of these 

transactions. If we can go back to the first page and enlarge 

the bottom half, please. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see the transaction 

that is one on the very bottom, October 2nd, 1989? 

A. I do.

Q. Who authorized that transaction?

A. It says Abu Ibrahim, who is the Defendant Mohammad 

El-Mezain, and brother Shukri who is the Defendant Shukri Abu 

Baker.

Q. How much is that for?

A. $100,000 plus the wire transfer fees.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up NAIT, page 106. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that the document that supports this 

transaction?

A. It is.

Q. Do you see the transaction on this page?

A. I do.

Q. Just explain how this supports the transaction, this 

document. 

A. This is the request from the North American Islamic 

Trust, which is the entity through which the HLF held its 

first bank account, and it is a request for $100,000. You can 

see amount to be transferred. The name of the payee is the 

Islamic Center of Gaza with the account number, the bank 

information, and then at the bottom it says "withdrawal 

requested by brother Abu Ibrahim/brother Shukri."

Q. Can you remind us why this is through NAIT, the North 

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American Islamic Trust?

A. Yes. In the beginning the HLF had an account under the 

Islamic Society of North America, also known as ISNA, that was 

held through NAIT, which is the North American Islamic Trust. 

They were like an Islamic bank.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Now, if we can go to the summary 

schedule, the Islamic Center of Gaza summary schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Now, Agent Burns, can you explain to us 

the top line, the title, and the line below that. 

A. Okay. On these summary charts, you will see they are 

three pages in length. Everything in this chart is going to 

relate to the Islamic Center of Gaza. So that is the title of 

the summary chart. 

Underneath that are a number of names of individuals. 

Those individuals are individuals who were leaders within that 

with whom the HLF had some type of connection. 

Do you want me to continue the exhibit columns? 

Q. No. How is it that you connected these people to 

the -- Is that the exhibit column?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. But before we do that, what is the last column on 

the far right?

A. The last column is the general committee column. And it 

will become a little bit more clear as we explain this chart, 

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but basically the purpose of this chart is to show you what 

types of evidence relate -- that we have that you will see 

that relate to this organization. And if a particular piece 

of evidence relates to one of these individuals there is an X 

in the column. 

And we had to make a general committee column because 

some of the evidence relates specifically to the committee as 

opposed to one of the individual leaders.

Q. Do you know if there are more people that are involved in 

this organization? And let me back up for a second. Withdraw 

that question. The questions I want to ask you now are 

just -- Let me withdraw that question. Are all the charts set 

up the same way?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Okay. The people that are listed on the charts, and I am 

using this one as an example for a moment before we get into 

the substance of the chart. 

A. Okay.

Q. Are these all the people associated with a particular 

committee?

A. No.

Q. Then why are these particular people here?

A. These individuals were key leaders within the 

organization over a period of time, and these individuals were 

also identified in evidence relating to the HLF showing that 

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they had knowledge of these individuals or connection to these 

individuals who were leaders.

MR. DRATEL: May we approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. DRATEL: Two fundamental objections with respect 

to this kind of testimony. One is that this all sounds like 

hearsay without foundation. It is all going to be hearsay. 

The second is this is really a summation.

MS. CADEDDU: There is a lot of Fifth Circuit case 

law, and I can get the Court the cites, about the impropriety 

of --

THE COURT: I have pulled up those cases because I 

knew this was coming, so I am prepared. It is proper to a 

certain extent. It is proper. You can cross the line, but I 

don't think they have gotten there. 

It isn't hearsay because she is explaining the chart and 

then the exhibits and then how these connections are made, so 

I haven't heard any hearsay yet.

MR. DRATEL: When she says they are all top leaders, 

that has all got to be hearsay. She has no personal --

THE COURT: Well, you can ask her about that. I am 

not sure what -- 

MS. CADEDDU: My concern is also, Your Honor, that 

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the other summary exhibits list which particular documents 

support them. These are general categories. We have no idea 

which video, we have no idea which -- I mean, these are lists 

with no supporting documents.

THE COURT: She said they are documents that are in 

evidence.

MR. JONAS: If you turn to the next schedule and 

then the third page.

THE COURT: The specific exhibits, yes, and the 

page.

MS. CADEDDU: All right. 

MR. DRATEL: One of the problems with hearsay is you 

can't cross examine it. So giving us the opportunity to go 

into it is not a solution for us. 

THE COURT: Well, I don't think it is hearsay. I 

think that is where we disagree. I haven't heard what I think 

is improper hearsay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: My concern is when she says these 

are key people, these are leaders, I mean, the problem is that 

is all hearsay because she just knows, you know, what she 

knows, but that is all information that I think if you asked 

her she would say she got from the experts.

THE COURT: Or from her investigation, the 

documents, just the things -- there is lot of sources of 

information I think she does know. That is why she is saying 

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that and that is why I think you can cross examine her and you 

can ask her specifically where it came from.

MS. CADEDDU: It is that kind of testimony that the 

Fifth Circuit has disapproved that when it goes from 

summarizing to actually rendering an opinion on what the 

meaning of that is.

THE COURT: She can render some opinions, a summary 

witness can, and this kind of witness can render some 

opinions. And as long as it is being based on her 

investigation, the documents in evidence, I think she can do 

that, because it is a voluminous case. And I don't think this 

is improper. I haven't heard it yet. 

Certainly you can object as we get further down the road, 

but so far I think he has asked proper questions. 

MR. JONAS: While we are here -- 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Where do you think the line is, Your 

Honor? 

THE COURT: Well, you start getting into where you 

start summarizing what other witnesses said, and then if you 

start getting beyond the investigation where I guess it can 

get a little murky as to exactly what it is. So far she has 

testified to the documents are in evidence. I guess the big 

problem we are having here is this opinion conclusion she 

stated that these are key leaders. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, this is something that I 

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think Agent Miranda -- In my cross examination of Agent 

Miranda, which is something that -- it is hard to parse out, 

which is I asked him a question, and he said, "Well, that was 

based on interviewing someone." So this raises underlying 

Crawford issues as well when you talk about how you know this 

stuff. She knows it from interviews and stuff --

THE COURT: That is different because she can still 

render an opinion. Even if the underlying bases for the 

opinion is not admissible, you can still render an opinion.

MR. DRATEL: As an expert, not as a summary, not a 

lay witness.

THE COURT: That is a good point. 

MS. MORENO: That is what she is being presented as, 

Your Honor. That is the problem we have.

THE COURT: I still think she is relying on 

documents, she said. There may be some underlying -- I mean, 

you were asking him what he was relying on, but you were 

trying to actually say he was relying on something, and it 

wasn't it was more than that. I thought that is why you were 

stuck with the answer because you were trying to make it look 

like this is what he was relying on.

MR. DRATEL: I understand that. What I am saying is 

this testimony is the same problem, we just don't hear it. 

Because when she says --

THE COURT: This is a lot more than just interviews. 

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Just what she stated so far and what we have heard so far, I 

know it is a lot more than interviews. She is talking about 

all these documents, so I just don't see the problem yet. 

MR. DRATEL: Just so long as we have our objection.

THE COURT: You have it. 

MR. JONAS: Just for housekeeping, I need to move in 

some -- some are in. I need to move in the rest. I will do 

it at some point.

THE COURT: In fact, even all these others we took 

up this morning, rather than offering, they are in. They are 

admitted. The objections we took up this morning, they are in 

evidence. I already looked at the exhibits. That has been 

admitted into evidence. And that way you don't have to go 

through all that. It is going to be the same objections, so 

no point in going through that.

MS. HOLLANDER: So we have a continuing objection? 

THE COURT: You have your objections to those on the 

record. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, you said a moment ago that 

these are top Hamas leaders. I want to -- with regard to the 

individuals on the chart Islamic Center of Gaza. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. You said these are top Hamas leaders, key leaders?

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A. I am sorry. I thought I said key leaders within the 

committee, the organization.

Q. Are you getting that from the records themselves that 

support the schedule?

A. Yes.

Q. I think I had asked you before the objection if there is 

other individuals who were maybe associated with the 

committee, not just this committee, the Islamic Center of 

Gaza, but the other committees we are going to talk about, who 

are not on your schedules?

A. Yes.

Q. Why is it, then, there are particular individuals -- and 

I may have asked you this, and I apologize if I did, but I 

want to make sure I am clear on it. Why are there particular 

individuals on the schedules?

A. These individuals are on the schedules because these are 

the individuals that most predominantly appear in the evidence 

that we have reviewed, all of the evidence we have talked 

about throughout the trial.

Q. So if there are other people that may be associated with 

the committees that are not on the schedule, is that because 

they are not mentioned in any of the evidence that you 

reviewed during the course of the investigation and which are 

in evidence in this case?

A. No. There are some that are mentioned maybe in one 

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document in a list of seven or eight people, but there is no 

other information relating to that individual, or they are 

just not key to the organization; whereas the other 

individuals are referenced in multiple times or in multiple 

pieces of information.

Q. All right. 

MR. JONAS: Let's go -- If we can enlarge are the 

left hand column, please, that says exhibits. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And if you can walk us through what these 

are. Let's take them one at a time. It says videotapes. 

What do you mean by videotapes?

A. Okay. Videotapes would be any of the videotapes that 

were seized in any of the search warrants that we have talked 

about, the HLF search warrant, the InfoCom search warrant, the 

Elbarasse search warrant, things like that.

Q. Generally speaking, what is it about videotapes that 

relate to committees?

A. Often you will have individuals who actually appear on 

these videotapes speaking, or you may have an individual who 

is referenced in the videotape by someone else. So generally 

for the purpose of these charts when videotapes are 

referenced, either the individual is going to appear on the 

videotape or someone is going to be speaking about that 

individual on the tape.

Q. And when you say the individual, again you mean someone 

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who is listed on the schedule?

A. Exactly. For example, under this column Ahmed Yassin has 

an X by the videotape. There are videotapes in which he is 

referenced. People speak about him in these videotapes.

Q. Okay. The next line underneath "videotape" says "general 

HLF/InfoCom." What does that mean?

A. This is a column, or a row rather, I guess, that refers 

to general documentation seized in the HLF and InfoCom search 

warrants. It could be correspondence like thank you letters, 

it could be signed receipts, various documents like that; 

documentary evidence.

Q. Okay. When you say correspondence, can you give us an 

example of between who to who?

A. Yes. For example, you might have a letter from the Holy 

Land Foundation to the committee or to the individual at that 

committee, or vice versa.

Q. The next item says "1991 Shukri report." What is that?

A. I believe --

Q. I skipped one. It says "InfoCom list." I apologize. 

A. Seized from InfoCom was a list of a number of committees, 

zakat committees and Islamic societies in the West Bank and 

Gaza. It was like a pamphlet that contained the names of the 

committees, individual members who are part of that committee, 

bank account information, phone numbers. That is what the 

InfoCom list is.

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Q. Is that a list that you testified about in your earlier 

testimony, if you recall?

A. I believe we did reference that in one specific section.

Q. So the first two categories, videotape and again HLF, 

that was a variety of items?

A. Correct.

Q. This is one specific document?

A. One document.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up InfoCom Search No. 28, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is this the document? I know this is the 

Arabic part, but I just want to identify it. 

A. It is.

Q. Are we going to go back to this document in the course of 

your testimony?

A. Yes, we are.

MR. JONAS: Get back to the schedule, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, the next item is the 1991 

Shukri report. What is that and what is the significance of 

it?

A. This is, again, just one document, and this is the letter 

or the report from 1991 written by Shukri Abu Baker, that we 

discussed in my first testimony briefly, about his trip to the 

territories in 1991.

Q. And how does that document relate to these charts?

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A. Therein he references a number of the committees that we 

are going to be talking about today.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up InfoCom Search No. 51, 

just to remind us what this document looks like.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is this the document? I know it is in 

Arabic. 

A. It is.

Q. Is this the document you are referring to?

A. It is.

Q. Does this document, many of the items in this column 

refer to multiple committees or individuals on multiple 

committees?

A. Yes. These documents, like the InfoCom list and this 

report, you are going to see on basically every chart for 

every committee.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the chart, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) After the letter to Shukri, there is 

Philadelphia meeting. What is that?

A. We skipped bank records and letters.

Q. I skipped a few things. Bank records. What are the bank 

records?

A. Those are just the domestic and foreign bank records of 

the HLF. Also you will see references to some foreign bank 

accounts for the actual committees that we are going to be 

talking about, in addition American Express records of the 

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HLF.

Q. What is it about the foreign bank accounts, the accounts 

of these committees, that are significant to these charts?

A. What is significant to these charts are the individuals 

who were in control of those bank accounts. The individuals, 

for example, on those -- You know, I don't think we have bank 

records on this chart, but the individuals who were on the 

bank accounts as the signatories as the people who had control 

over the money.

Q. Is that one way of helping you identify who was part of 

the committee?

A. Yes.

Q. And with regard to these particular bank accounts that 

are on these charts, was there a connection between them and 

the HLF?

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection to leading, Your Honor.

MR. JONAS: I will rephrase.

THE COURT: All right.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What, if any, connection is there between 

these bank accounts and the HLF?

A. The HLF sent money to these bank accounts.

Q. Next is "letter to Shukri." What is that?

A. This is a document that was seized in the Elbarasse 

search warrant, and it is a letter that is addressed to 

Shukri.

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Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Elbarasse Search 

No. 22. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Was this a document that you testified 

about in your first testimony?

A. I don't recall if we discussed this one on our first 

testimony or not.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can scroll through, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does it look familiar?

A. Oh, it does look familiar.

Q. Did you testify about this previously?

A. Yes, in one respect we did.

Q. Okay. We are going to cover it throughout the testimony?

A. In more detail.

Q. All right. 

MR. JONAS: Go back to the schedule, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Now, I believe it says we are up to the 

Philadelphia meeting. 

A. It does.

Q. What is that about?

A. In that Philadelphia meeting that we discussed from 

October of 1993, that meeting that the FBI wiretapped, during 

that meeting there were discussions about some of these 

committees, and if these committees or individuals were 

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discussed at that meeting, you will see an X in the 

appropriate column on the chart.

Q. Next it says "MEZ deportee." What does that mean?

A. That is short for Marj al-Zuhour, which is in Lebanon, 

and in 1992, in December of 1992 the Government of Israel 

deported over 400 individuals from the territories to Marj 

al-Zuhour, Lebanon. A majority of these individuals were 

known to be Hamas members. There were also some Palestinian 

Islamic Jihad members, as well as some other people. But a 

majority of them were known to be Hamas members.

Q. What is the significance about that deportation in these 

charts?

A. The HLF directly supported the deportees and their 

families, and also supported some of these individuals in 

other ways, but more specifically a number of these 

individuals who were deported were leaders in these committees 

that we are going to discuss.

Q. Okay. Did you find any videotapes seized from the HLF or 

InfoCom of the deportation?

A. Yes.

Q. InfoCom Search No. 27, does that sound like one of those 

videotapes?

A. It does.

MR. JONAS: If we can play InfoCom Search No. 27, 

please, both clips.

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(Whereupon, InfoCom Search No. 27 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see the individual in 

the center of the screen holding the handheld mic that goes to 

the bullhorn?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recognize who it is?

A. It is very blurry here, but from before it was Ismail 

Haniya. 

Q. We haven't pulled out Demonstrative No. 17 in a few days, 

the chart entitled "Hamas leaders in the 1990s." Is he on 

this chart anywhere?

A. He is on the bottom, the second from me, Ismail Haniya.

Q. Do you see that?

A. I do, yes.

Q. Were there other videotapes seized from InfoCom that 

pertain to the deportation?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play InfoCom Search No. 26, 

please, just the first two clips.

(Whereupon, InfoCom Search No. 26, Clips A and B, 

were played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, did you see a moment ago he 

said, "All the brothers belong to either jihad or Hamas"?

A. Yes.

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Q. Is that part of why you have this Marj al-Zahour category 

on these schedules?

A. Yes.

Q. Agent Burns, do you see there was a reference to Sheikh 

Yassin?

A. Yes.

Q. When you testified earlier about videotapes and being 

references to individuals and that is why it is on the chart, 

the name and the videotape, is that an example of that?

A. That is an example of that.

Q. Did you recognize anyone else in that last picture, that 

last clip?

A. I did.

Q. Who?

A. Hamas Abdel Aziz Rantisi.

Q. And let me pull out Demonstrative No. 17 again. Is 

Rantisi on the chart?

A. He is.

Q. If you can point him out. 

A. He is second from you on the second row.

Q. Right where I am pointing to?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you find any documentation anywhere in the search 

warrant material that pertained to the deportation?

A. I did.

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Q. And the individuals who were deported?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can put InfoCom Search No. 25 on 

the screen, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is this that item you are referring to?

A. It is.

Q. I realize this is in Arabic. Are we going to go to this 

document more in your testimony?

A. Yes, we will see it frequently.

Q. I just wanted to pull it up to identify it. Has it been 

translated?

A. It has.

Q. Fairly thick document?

A. It is.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the schedule, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Did you come -- Staying with the 

deportees, did you come across any intercepted phone calls 

from any of the Defendants discussing the deportees being 

Hamas?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Baker Wiretap No. 2. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) We played portions of that phone call 

between Shukri Abu Baker and Gayle Reeves during your last 

testimony. Do you recall that?

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A. I do.

Q. This is going to be another clip from that, clip C, Baker 

Wiretap No. 2-A. 

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap No. 2, Clip C was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, did you interview any of the 

Defendants regarding the deportation?

A. I did.

Q. Who?

A. The Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And what did he say about his knowledge of who was 

deported?

A. He said that it was reported in the media at that time 

that a majority -- 

MS. MORENO: Objection, Your Honor. May we 

approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, with respect to any 

statements that Mr. El-Mezain made in his deposition, we 

suggest that that raises a Bruton issue. Oh, it is a 302. We 

suggest that raises a Bruton issue, and ask for a limiting 

instruction, and also object on confrontation grounds.

MR. JONAS: We don't have any issue with limiting 

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instructions to the items that were said that were being 

offered for the truth, which this is one of them. I think the 

instruction is appropriate at the end when you give the 

general instructions to the jury. We don't have a problem 

with an instruction. 

THE COURT: And you don't see any Bruton -- I don't 

see what is coming, but --

MR. JONAS: No, because the testimony doesn't 

pertain to any of the other Defendants in this case.

MS. MORENO: This is a conspiracy case, Your Honor. 

The reason they are offering -- 

THE COURT: It is not a Bruton issue. I understand, 

but that is overruled. But the Bruton issue is what I was 

asking specifically about. You don't see one? 

MR. JONAS: No. In fact, this goes to an objection 

raised by the Defendants during the testimony of Agent 

Miranda, I believe, when he was talking about the family 

members, and there was one thing Agent Miranda said about a 

relationship between the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain and 

another individual as part of the deportation. And Mr. Jacks 

said, "We are going to get to that." We are there. It is 

covering that earlier objection as well.

MR. DRATEL: He is going to go beyond that, you 

know. I assume we get to it on cross examination as to what 

he actually said.

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THE COURT: I don't know what he is going to say.

MR. DRATEL: You are going to talk about what he 

said about the deportees and not just Hamdan. 

MR. JONAS: Am I really? I guess I will find out, 

because Mr. Dratel knows.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, just for clarification, 

objection for one is an objection for all? 

THE COURT: Yes. I think we discussed that several 

times. You have that. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I was asking about an 

interview you conducted of the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain 

with regard to the deportees. 

MR. DRATEL: Can we get a time frame, Your Honor, 

please? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) When was he interviewed?

A. It was either 2003 or 2002, somewhere -- It was after the 

HLF was shut down.

Q. Okay. Did Mohammad El-Mezain talk to you about if he had 

any family members that were part of the deportation?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. What did he say?

A. He said that he had a cousin who had been deported who 

was known to be a Hamas supporter.

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Q. What was the name of that cousin?

A. Ahmed Hamdan.

Q. Okay. A moment ago we pulled up InfoCom Search No. 25, 

which you identified as coming from InfoCom. That is in the 

Arabic document, and we said we will get to later. 

A. Yes.

Q. Just remind us again what that document is about. 

A. That was a list of deportees to Marj al-Zuhour in 1992.

Q. Is the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain's cousin listed in 

that list?

A. He is.

Q. Identified in that list?

A. He is identified, yes.

Q. Okay.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the summary chart, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I believe we are up to "Marzook's 

phonebook." And what is the significance of Marzook's 

phonebook to these schedules?

A. It was one of the pieces of evidence that I analyzed 

regarding these committees and the members of the committees. 

And if the committee or an individual who was on one of these 

charts as a leader of the committee is listed in Marzook's 

phonebook that was seized in 1995 from Marzook, then there 

will be an X in that column under that person's name.

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Q. The next item is "Ashqar's documents." What is that?

A. We discussed the December 1993 covert search of Abdel 

Haleem Ashqar's home where they took photographs of those 

documents. If any of these committees or individuals are 

referenced in those documents, you will find an X in that 

column.

Q. The next one is "Elbarasse's documents." What is that?

A. That is the same thing for the Ismail Elbarasse search 

warrant. If any of these entities are listed in a piece of 

evidence seized in that search warrant, there will be an X in 

that column.

Q. The last item on this column is "phone calls/faxes." 

What are those?

A. Those are the wiretap calls and faxes. If we selected an 

item from one of those wiretaps that will be discussed that 

references one of these individuals or the committee, there 

will also be an X in that column or row. 

Q. Agent Burns, there is a picture on this chart. Who is 

that?

A. That is Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

Q. Is that the same picture of the one admitted into 

evidence of him?

A. I don't know if it is the identical picture, but it is 

the same individual.

Q. Do all the charts have pictures on them?

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A. No.

Q. Just this one?

A. Yes.

Q. You testified there are Xs where the item on the other 

exhibits and the name or the general committee column 

intersect, as if there is an item that references that 

individual on the committee. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. But there are some spaces with no Xs. Can you just 

explain that?

A. Well, if there is not an X, that means that in the 

evidence that is being presented, that individual is not 

identified.

Q. For that particular item?

A. For that particular item. For example, under bank 

records here there is no X under Ahmed Yassin's name. That 

means that no bank records we are introducing or discussing 

discuss or reference Ahmed Yassin.

Q. Okay. 

A. But I might add, there is another column that has an 

asterisk with "see payments under general committee." Just to 

explain that, we looked at the financial schedules for these 

committees. Well, the financial documents that went in to 

make up those financial schedules are also evidence that 

sometimes relate to the summary charts. So when you see an 

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asterisk and it says "See payments to the Islamic Center of 

Gaza," you also need to reference the financial schedule and 

those underlying documents.

Q. Why didn't you just list out all those underlying 

documents in that schedule all over again in this schedule?

A. Because, one, it would have one made it very cluttered; 

and two, it would have just been, you know, double the work 

for -- I mean, when you can just go directly to the other 

schedule and look at it, it is much easier. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to page two 2 of the 

schedule.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you explain what this page is about?

A. Yes. On -- There are three pages to this exhibit, so we 

looked at the first page. The second page again shows the 

committee's name on the top, and the same list of exhibit 

types on the left. Then for every exhibit that will be 

discussed that relates to this committee, it is sorted by 

type. 

So videotapes, the exhibit numbers that pertain to this 

committee are listed out beside videotapes. HLF Search No. 32 

is a videotape. HLF Search No. 113 a videotape.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the last page, page 3 of 

the schedule.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Are you going to explain this page?

A. To help make it easier, since the records are so 

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voluminous, I tried to break it down by individual and page 

number, because some of these exhibits are a rather large. So 

all of the same individuals are listed on the third page that 

are listed on the first, and underneath them are the exact 

exhibit number with page number, so that if you want to go and 

look and see where Ahmed Yassin is referenced as it relates to 

this summary chart, you can look up the exact exhibit number 

and the page number and turn right to the page and see where 

he is referenced.

Q. Are the exhibits on this page that are sorted by the 

individual or the general committee the same exhibits that are 

on the second page that are sorted by the source, the exhibit 

itself?

A. Yes. They are just -- Here you have the additional 

benefit of page number, and it is broken down by specific 

individual.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, I want to now go through this chart. 

And we are not going to go through every single exhibit that 

supports the chart, but I want to go through some 

representative samples. 

A. Okay.

Q. And first let's start with the first person, Ahmed 

Yassin. 

MR. JONAS: And let's go to HLF Search No. 108, page 

11. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document and what does it 

say about Yassin?

A. Well, this is one of the Middle East Affairs Journals 

that was taken during the HLF search warrant. It is a 

document or a journal that was published by the United 

Association for Studies and Research, UASR, and in it there is 

an article that discusses Yassin and -- 

Q. Can you remind us what the UASR is?

A. Yes. They were one of the three initial organizations 

that were a part of the Palestine Committee. You had the HLF, 

the IAP, and UASR that we saw referenced multiple times in 

these early Palestinian Committee documents.

Q. And based upon the evidence, who created or who was part 

of starting the UASR?

A. That was Mousa Abu Marzook the Hamas leader.

Q. Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: What was that document number? 

MR. JONAS: This is HLF Search No. 108, page 11. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, if we can just point out 

where in this page it mentions Yassin, if you can see it?

A. He is discussed throughout, but if you look in the first 

paragraph it talks about how he established the al Mojama 

al-Islami, the Islamic Center we are talking about, in Gaza.

Q. Is this one of the items you relied on to connect Yassin 

to the Islamic Center?

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A. Yes.

MR. DRATEL: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. JONAS: Okay. Let's look at InfoCom Search 

No. 28, page 98, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, while we are waiting for 

that document to pull up, you testified that -- Well, 

withdrawn. What is the purpose of this chart?

A. To assist everyone in looking at the specific evidence 

that relates to the committees and the people who control 

them.

Q. Okay. Are you looking -- Is one of the purposes to 

connect the HLF to the committee?

A. Yes.

Q. Is also one of the purposes to identify who in 

the -- Withdrawn. Who runs the committees?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Is one of the purposes also to see if there is any 

information contained within the body of evidence gathered in 

this case connecting those individuals or the committee to 

Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So there are three purposes?

A. Right.

Q. All right. This particular item, InfoCom Search No. 28, 

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page 98, what is the purpose of this particular item?

A. This particular item shows that, again, the Islamic 

Center, which is also known as the Islamic Complex, was 

founded by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the document taken from 

InfoCom.

Q. Does this support that prior document we just looked at, 

the Middle East Affairs Journal?

A. It does.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull back and enlarge the 

middle half. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, are there documents that 

reference multiple individuals per committee? And I am asking 

not with regard to this particular schedule, but just 

generically with the other schedules as well. 

A. Yes.

Q. So do you reference that document under each person's 

name if it identifies each person?

A. I do.

Q. So this particular one, does this identify individuals 

who are on your chart, as well as Sheikh Yassin that you 

discussed a moment ago, in the top half of the page?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us who else is on your chart--which I 

realize is not on the screen right now, but you have in front 

of you--is identified, per this exhibit, as being connected to 

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the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. I can. It would be nice -- is there any way to pull it 

up on the screen with it? 

MR. JONAS: Can we split screen it, please. If you 

can enlarge the names on the right schedule. 

THE WITNESS: Actually I think this will be okay, if 

we leave it like this, because I wanted to show how the Xs 

appear.

MR. JONAS: Okay. Enlarge on the left page InfoCom 

Search No. 28, the names. Thank you. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. So again, this is -- If you 

will look on the right side of your screen on the summary 

chart, under exhibits, the third one down is InfoCom list, and 

then there are Xs under specific individuals' names. The 

document on the left is that InfoCom list, and it referenced, 

as we saw, Yassin in the first paragraph. And then No. 1, as 

chairman of that organization is Ibrahim al-Yazouri. And if 

you look over to the right there is an X under his name 

showing that he appears in this list. 

The same thing with No. 2, Mohammed Hassan Shama'ah. He 

is also on the summary chart and has an X under his name in 

this row. 

And finally Mohammed Saleh Taha is referenced in the 

summary chart and has an X under his name in this row.

Q. So when we talk about these individuals, we don't need to 

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go back to that document now, do we?

A. I hope not.

Q. Okay. I want to staying with Yassin. Did you come 

across -- Is there anything in your chart that references 

Sheikh Yassin's connection to Hamas?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull HLF Search No. 109, page 

140, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this item, by the way?

A. This is a book that was seized from Abdulrahman Odeh's 

office.

Q. Do you recall the title?

A. It was regarding a study about Hamas. I can't remember 

the exact title, but that was the essence of it.

Q. Can you remind us again who Abdulrahman Odeh is?

A. That is the Defendant Abdulrahman Odeh.

Q. What was his connection to the HLF?

A. He was the HLF New Jersey representative.

Q. Where was this book found?

A. In the HLF New Jersey office.

Q. Page 140, which is a translation, how does it reference 

Yassin's reference to Hamas?

A. It is actually reporting on an interview with Sheikh 

Ahmed Yassin, and identifies him of the head of the Hamas 

movement in the territories.

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Q. Was there other items that you came across that connected 

Yassin to Hamas?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Let's look at one more. If we can go to 

El-Mezain Wiretap No. 1, page 89, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And just can you remind us again what 

El-Mezain Wiretap No. 1, what that exhibit consists of?

A. Those are a number of faxes that were obtained from the 

wiretap on Mohammad El-Mezain's phone.

Q. And on this particular page where does it identify Sheikh 

Yassin?

A. In the first paragraph it says -- it identifies Sheikh 

Ahmed Yassin.

MR. DRATEL: Same foundation objection, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Overruled. 

MR. JONAS: Enlarge that first paragraph, please. 

THE WITNESS: And it says, "Sheikh Ahmed Bhar, one 

of the Hamas movement leaders in Gaza Strip, confirmed in a 

mass festival attended by thousands of Hamas supporters in the 

Strip, on the seventh anniversary of the movement that Hamas 

was established by a decision from the Islamic leadership and 

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, and that it came to fulfill the desire of 

the Palestinian masses to ignite the fire of revolution 

against the occupier on December 8, 1987."

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the summary 

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schedule, please, for the Islamic Center of Gaza. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) The next individual is Atef Abed. Am I 

pronouncing that correctly?

A. Right.

Q. And again, just before I leave Yassin for a moment, on 

page three of the schedule -- 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to that page real quick. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) There are other items that we have not 

covered?

A. That is correct.

Q. That support Yassin's connection to the committee and 

Hamas?

A. Yes. So you would want to look at all of those.

Q. Okay. We are not going to do that now. 

A. Okay.

Q. But it is all material that is in evidence. Correct?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Let's just move on to Atef Abed. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up InfoCom Search No. 49, 

please, page 8. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this item?

A. It is a letter I believe to the HLF from Atef Abdulrahmen 

Abed of the Islamic Center, you can see there on the signature 

line.

Q. This came from where?

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A. This came from the -- I can't remember if it is the Holy 

Land Foundation or InfoCom. It is the HLF.

Q. This is InfoCom Search No. 49. 

A. InfoCom search.

Q. The title of the exhibit, does that give you any help?

A. It does.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to the HLF Search No. 

149, please, page 11. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this?

A. This again is a thank you letter from Atef Abed from the 

Islamic Center, also known as the Islamic Complex--it is a 

different way of translating the same word--to the HLF, and 

it was found at the HLF.

Q. With regard to the material again that you reviewed and 

that you made part of your chart, did you find a connection 

between every individual in the chart and Hamas?

A. Not within the evidence that we are presenting here.

Q. That is what I am asking. 

A. Yes.

Q. So with regard to this individual, on the chart it just 

has these two exhibits we have pulled up that just connect 

them to the committee, as well as there is a connection to 

HLF. Did you come across anything within the body of material 

that you reviewed that is in evidence and supports this chart 

connecting Atef Abed to Hamas?

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A. Not other than his connection through the Islamic Center.

Q. Okay. If we can go to -- The next person on the chart is 

Ibrahim al-Yazouri. We don't need to keep going. Do you see 

he is the third name?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's look at a few of the examples. When we pulled up 

InfoCom No. 28, when we were talking about Shiekh Yassin, was 

al-Yazouri's name on that document?

A. Yes. Actually I believe he was listed as the chairman on 

the document.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to an HLF Foreign Account No. 

1, page 67. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is HLF Foreign Account No. 1 

Agent Burns?

A. That is one of the HLF's foreign bank accounts in the 

territories.

Q. And how do you connect this -- You have this exhibit 

listed under the Ibrahim al-Yazouri column. What is it about 

this exhibit that connects him?

A. This is a payment to him as director of the Islamic 

Assembly--and assembly is just a different way of translating 

the same word Islamic Center--and from the HLF. So it is a 

direct financial connection between the HLF and this 

individual.

Q. Okay. 

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MR. JONAS: Let's go to HLF Search No. 109, page 

143, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is the book we looked at a moment 

ago? 

A. It is.

Q. Is there anything in this document, in this book, that 

connects Ibrahim al-Yazouri to Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that?

A. I am looking for the specific paragraph. There he is 

listed, if you look, it says the Islamic Resistance Movement, 

Hamas, in Gaza, six people who are Salah Shehatah, Mohamed 

Shma'a who is also listed on this chart, Ibrahim Yazouri who 

is the individual we are speaking about, Abdel Aziz al 

Rantisi, Abdel Fattah Dokhan, and Issa AL Nashar. So it 

identifies him as a leader of Hamas.

Q. Abdel Aziz Rantisi, that is the individual we saw on the 

deportee tape that we pointed out a few moments ago?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Let's move to the next person on the list, then. 

You identified a guy named Mohamed Shama'ah?

A. Yes.

Q. Correct? He has been now -- I think we have seen his 

name twice on some of these exhibits. Is that correct?

A. That is correct. We saw him on the InfoCom list and we 

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saw him there -- as identified with the committee. And then 

we saw him there in that Middle East Affairs Journal 

identified as a leader of Hamas.

Q. Okay. Let's look at one more on him. Okay?

A. Okay.

MR. JONAS: InfoCom Search No. 25, page 24. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And while that is pulling up, can you 

remind us what InfoCom Search No. 25 is?

A. Yes. It is a list of those deportees to Marj al-Zuhour, 

Lebanon that was taken from InfoCom.

Q. Okay. And on page 24, which is the English translation, 

where do we see Mohamed Shma'ah's name?

A. He is the last individual listed on this page.

Q. Okay. Let's move on to the next individual, Mohamed 

Taha, T-A-H-A. 

MR. JONAS: I am sorry. Go back to that page, 

InfoCom Search No. 25. I am sorry. My mistake. Don't worry 

about that. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Have we seen Mohammed Taha's name already 

this morning?

A. It was in InfoCom Search No. 25 on page 64.

Q. Okay. 

A. It was also in the InfoCom list.

MR. JONAS: Let's look at another one. InfoCom 

Search No. 48, page 217. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that Mohammed Taha there?

A. I think there is a typo on the page number.

MR. JONAS: Try page 123. 

THE WITNESS: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. And what is this item? What is 

this exhibit?

A. This is a -- We talked about the prisoners projects, 

these needy family projects in my first testimony, with the 

individuals that had been detained for security reasons who 

were supported by the HLF. This is a certificate of one of 

the individuals who was supported by the HLF who had been 

detained for security reasons. 

So this particular individual was supported by the HLF as 

a prisoner in 1991, and as a deportee when he was deported in 

late 1992, early '93, and he was also identified on the 

InfoCom list as a member of this committee, of the Islamic 

Center of Gaza.

Q. And everything you just testified to, is that contained 

within the exhibits we just looked at?

A. Yes, it is just listed here on the third page.

Q. Let's go to the general committee column. 

MR. JONAS: Go back to the schedule, please, the 

third page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) We see a series of exhibits that are 

under the general committee column. And generally speaking, 

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can you tell us what these exhibits say with regard to this 

committee?

A. Well, the HLF search and InfoCom search documents will be 

a little bit different. Those are usually letters, thank you 

letters, things like that. The Ashqar documents, I believe 

those are more phone lists, things like that. Actually Ashqar 

No. 5 I know is also a letter. It is a Hamas letter. And 

Elbarasse Search No. 18 is the fax from the Islamic Relief 

Committee, from my first testimony that we discussed, wherein 

Hamas was requesting weapons, and they also requested aid to 

prisoners' families.

Q. Does that relate to the Islamic Center of Gaza?

A. It does.

Q. I want to go back to something you said a moment ago 

about the HLF search and InfoCom search, and those are 

letters. What is the purpose of those documents on this 

chart?

A. To show connection between the HLF and the Islamic Center 

of Gaza. And on this chart, because the Islamic Center of 

Gaza is a little bit different, it goes to show their general 

connection with the committee.

MR. JONAS: Let's pull up Elbarasse Search No. 18, 

page 14, please. Before we do that, we need to read the 

bottom of page 12. So let's go back to page 12 and then we 

will go to page 14. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you just read this bottom paragraph?

A. Yes. And again, this is that fax from the Islamic Relief 

Committee, that we initially talked about in my first 

testimony, from 1992, and this is part of it. And it says, 

"You do not know how happy people become when they watch those 

Mujahideen and how proud they feel when they parade in their 

uniforms and weapons, and the extent of their honor when they 

carry out their jihadist operations against the Jews and their 

tentacles. It is a feeling that no taste or enjoy its flavor 

except the one who lives it. Jihad in Palestine is different 

from any jihad. The meaning of killing a Jew for the 

liberation of Palestine cannot be compared to any jihad on 

earth. This is the meaning that I came out with from there."

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go now to page 14. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is it on this page that caused you 

to put this on the Islamic Center of Gaza chart?

A. Well, after the writer goes and requests aid for weapons, 

he says that he appeals to the reader to take quick action to 

feel the needs of the people inside. And he lists the 

delivery channels, the channels through which that aid could 

be given. And the first one is the detainees and the needs of 

their families. And if you scroll down, he lists the Islamic 

Complex, which is the Islamic Center of Gaza as one of the 

channels for delivering funds.

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Q. Okay. The last thing I want to ask you about on this 

particular schedule is the Philadelphia meeting. You said 

that they talked in the Philadelphia meeting about some of 

these committees. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play Philadelphia Meeting 

No. 13, clip A, please. 

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 13, Clip A was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is speaking?

A. This is Muin Shabib.

Q. He said, "We must speak about the situation and the 

organizations on the inside." Have we heard that terminology 

in this case?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is that terminology? How has that terminology 

been defined as in this case?

A. Inside the Palestinian territories as opposed to outside 

the Palestinian territories.

Q. Okay. 

MS. CADEDDU: I would object to that testimony as an 

improper summary.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see where he refers 

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to the Islamic Complex?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the Islamic Center of Gaza that you have been 

testifying about?

A. That is correct.

Q. Does he go on and talk about other zakat committees that 

the HLF gave money to?

A. He does.

Q. That we are going to talk about soon?

A. Yes.

Q. I am just going to let this clip play out. It is going 

to be easier, if that is okay with you. 

A. Okay.

Q. Do you see where he refers to al-Salah Society?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that a society you are going to testify about?

A. It is, just as the Islamic Society of Gaza, the one he 

mentions just before it.

Q. Okay. Do you see the Nablus zakat committee?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the HLF give money to the Nablus zakat committee?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see the reference to Islamic Movement?

A. Yes.

Q. Have we seen that mentioned in this case before?

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A. Yes.

Q. And based upon the evidence, what is the Islamic 

Movement?

A. That will be the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas.

Q. He references in Jenin a zakat committee. Did the HLF 

give financial aid to the Jenin zakat committee?

A. They did, as well as the hospital that is referenced 

there.

Q. Tulkarem. Did the HLF give money to the Tulkarem zakat 

committee?

A. Yes.

Q. And he mentions Qalqilya. Was there a Qalqilya zakat 

committee that the HLF gave money to?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see where it says SH and UI?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the UI?

A. That means unintelligible. The translator couldn't 

understand what was being said.

Q. Who is the SH?

A. That is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Do you see where he says, "In Jerusalem will remain some 

organizations, particularly the Islamic Sciences and Culture 

Society"? Did the HLF give money to the Islamic Sciences and 

Culture Society?

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A. Yes.

Q. And I know we are going to get to that soon, but who ran 

that society back when the HLF was giving money to it?

A. Particularly Hamas leader Jamil Hamami.

Q. Agent Burns, do you see where it says, "We could say that 

the Ramallah zakat committee is ours, including its management 

and officers"? Did the HLF give money to the Ramallah zakat 

committee?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take a break at this 

point. Be back at a quarter till 11:00. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 15 till.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I think the problem now 

with respect to the type of testimony we have had is that 

things that came in to show that Holy Land had them in their 

files or that things were faxed to Mr. El-Mezain have now come 

in for the truth. In other words, she has been reading as a 

foundation, things that are in the Middle East Journal 

articles and things like that, and using that for the truth. 

And I think that is one of the problems of not having an 

instruction contemporaneous with when those things came in 

initially, what they are being introduced for. Now I think it 

is completely muddled, and they are coming in for a purpose 

that they were not initially put in for. So that is my 

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objection.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I don't recall any 

limitation on these particular exhibits. And while there are 

some exhibits, and not these ones in particular, that may have 

been offered to show that the HLF had them, these exhibits are 

documents that were created by co-conspirators in this case. 

For example, The Middle East Affairs Journal was published by 

the UASR, which we have established is a co-conspirator as 

part of the Palestine Committee. 

That book that Agent Burns testified about with the red 

cover taken from the office of Defendant Odeh, if I remember 

correctly, and Agent Burns can correct me if I am wrong, has 

the HLF as the OLF in the back of it with an IAP publication. 

I am being told no. It is not that particular book. There is 

another book like that, though. 

So I think we -- And we are arguing that these are 

co-conspirator statements made in furtherance of.

THE COURT: And I don't remember the limitations, 

counsel, on these documents that they were admitted not for 

the truth. I don't remember that. The record will reflect 

that.

MR. DRATEL: I thought your basis for admitting 

them, Your Honor, was that they were found in the Holy Land 

files or they were received -- 

THE COURT: I don't remember that conversation. 

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That doesn't mean that they come in not for the truth because 

they were found there. That doesn't mean there is a 

limitation what they can be used for.

MR. DRATEL: They have hearsay within them, and I 

think that just because they were found --

THE COURT: Counsel, but part of what I am hearing 

here, that is the reason I asked the Government to give you in 

advance the exhibits so we could get objections. I have 

admitted these exhibits. They have been admitted. There were 

no limitations on those exhibits, except those that we 

specifically discussed. And there were a few that we 

discussed. But there wasn't a general limitation on these 

documents that they were being admitted not for the truth. 

And I wanted objections back then before I admitted; not now 

that they are in. I am getting these objections now. These 

exhibits are in. 

If you didn't make those objections, in my view they are 

untimely now and they have been waived. That is why I had the 

Government give you that list, so I could hear objections. I 

am not going to sit here and go through all these exhibits and 

listen to them to figure out what is right and what is wrong. 

That is your job. There is a lot more of you than me. So I 

need to hear the objections from counsel. And I dealt with 

those objections as I received them, and then we dealt with 

them. Some have been limited, some of them have been admitted 

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in part, and some of them are in. But those that are in are 

in. And if there was a limitation, the record will reflect 

it. I don't recall any limitations, like you are discussing, 

on these exhibits. So if they are in for all purposes they 

are in and this is not improper then.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, and I don't think it is 

untimely when the witness is testifying, but also --

THE COURT: I think it is untimely if the exhibit 

has already been admitted into evidence. You have been given 

an opportunity to object, and you didn't object on the basis 

you are now objecting.

MR. DRATEL: I am objecting to the use which they 

are putting it. 

But the other issue is that, for example, for example, 

the UASR Middle East Journal, it is not written by them. It 

is written by someone else. They haven't proved that person 

is a co-conspirator who wrote the articles. This expands the 

co-conspirator exception beyond the breaking point.

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I just thought, and I 

could be wrong, but I thought that when these documents came 

in originally that, and I have --

THE COURT: Like the first time she testified? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Right. Originally when they first 

came in, Mr. Jacks said, and I wrote it down, the quote, "The 

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jury is entitled to see what HLF kept as an indication of 

their state of mind," that they were being offered to show -- 

THE COURT: But that doesn't establish that they 

weren't offered for the truth. I don't ever recall having 

that limitation just generally on these exhibits that we are 

having now. 

And then we did admit some housekeeping towards the end 

of her first time that she testified, and there I think it was 

subject to some other provisions, and I don't recall the 

limitations. But now you have been given the list, 

housekeeping that she discussed later, and you have had the 

opportunity to object. That is the point I am making. That 

is what that list was for. You have had this list since when?

MR. JONAS: This particular list with regard to this 

testimony, Thursday maybe.

THE COURT: Last week sometime. And so that is why 

you received it, so I could get the objections. I have 

received the objections yesterday, and so now I have ruled on 

them and I am hearing more and more and more objections. So 

you have now had your objections. These objections raised now 

were not raised previously. You had, I guess to the extent 

you had hearsay or 403 generally, but now you are objecting to 

specific portions. You have previously objected to specific 

portions of some of these exhibits, and we have kept out part 

of them. 

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So I am assuming when I get objections that these are 

your objections, and that is the reason we were doing that, so 

we would haven't to keep doing this every time a line or a 

sentence is played. That is your job to give me the 

objections that you want to make. And I have now ruled on 

those, so as far as I am concerned the exhibits are in, and I 

don't need to be hearing additional objections. They are 

untimely, and I consider them waived, to the extent that you 

previously haven't made it. 

But if you have previously made it, you have it. It is 

on the record. It is there. But if it is something you 

haven't previously made, or to a specific portion that you 

haven't previously pointed out, then, you know, I consider 

that untimely and waived. 

All right. We will be in recess. Be here at a quarter 

till.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Do we need to take up a matter before 

the jury comes in? 

MS. DUNCAN: Yes, Your Honor. 

I think that part of the confusion from this side is that 

there are -- This morning you had overruled objections we had 

to some specific exhibits that we identified in our motion, 

and we had identified in particular those that we thought we 

needed to argue about, and we tried to include as many others 

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stating objections we had stated before. 

And so I think what is happening is because Mr. Jonas 

isn't identifying those exhibits that are coming into evidence 

today, we are getting confused whether they were in before or 

they are coming in today, and so that there are some, like, 

for example, hearsay objections that don't require any kind of 

argument but we need to make our objections to those. 

We tried to identify them all in the motion, but we may 

have missed some, and we are having a difficulty 

distinguishing what was admitted before and today. 

I spoke to Mr. Jonas, and we would appreciate it if Mr. 

Jonas would just identify this exhibit is coming in today for 

all those exhibits, except for the ones the Court specifically 

considered this morning which we already have written down. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, just so I can maybe add to 

that, a list that I sent on Thursday were exhibits that had 

not been admitted.

THE COURT: Yes. Some of them actually have been, 

but that has happened on every list. But by and large I would 

say 90 percent were not admitted. So these were new exhibits, 

which is what the list is designed to do. I am not asking you 

to give each other lists of exhibits that are already in that 

you want to talk with the witness about. I am asking about 

new exhibits that aren't in so that we can get objections, and 

then I can try to resolve those before we start questioning 

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the witness. 

So the purpose behind the list, both ways, is new 

exhibits that are not in evidence that you intend to use with 

any particular witness, and I want the objections in advance 

so then we can resolve them. 

So when I get objections, I am treating those as these 

are the objections. And when I get a hearsay objection, 403, 

your standard objections that you have to all of these 

exhibits, virtually, I am treating it as an objection to the 

exhibit as a whole, unless you identify a particular problems, 

which you have done on occasion. And I am treating those as 

objections to the exhibit as a whole, and then I will look at 

those exhibits, or I have done that mostly. And once I rule 

on it, then the exhibit is in. 

If it is in for a limited purpose, of course it is for 

that limited purpose, but once it is in, it is in. So I don't 

need to be hearing additional objections you didn't think 

about, or whatever happens. That is where I am, and that the 

purpose for the -- That is the only reason to have this change 

of exhibits is to avoid these objections during the trial and 

the discussions that come with it. All these bench 

conferences we were having to have that first or second day of 

trial that we spent so much time up here was designed to fix 

that.

MS. DUNCAN: Right, Your Honor. And with our 

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pleading, we hoped to identify all of those that would require 

us to go in depth into our objection, but there were some that 

we may not have identified. When we were just sort of 

reurging our prior objections, there may be some where we have 

those hearsay or 403, which the Court has overruled before, so 

they weren't identified in that motion just because we were 

going through it -- 

THE COURT: And in your objections they were not 

identified? 

MS. DUNCAN: Yes, Your Honor. 

So what we are asking, if we could simply identify the 

exhibits that are coming in today, being introduced today, 

versus the ones that were introduced, for example, during 

Agent Burns' testimony the first time. That would allow us to 

make sure we have got what we need today, so we are not going 

to be reurging objections to exhibits that were introduced two 

weeks ago, and just deal with the exhibits coming in for the 

first time today.

MR. JONAS: Let me just make a suggestion. As I am 

going through these exhibits with Agent Burns, I am just doing 

a representative sample of what supports the list, so my 

assumption is based on the sidebar that they are all in. 

I had created my own cheat sheet, for lack of a better 

term, for exhibits I thought I needed to admit per the 

schedule that had not previously been admitted. As long as I 

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know I can get this back, I am happy to give this to Ms. 

Duncan as a guide. Maybe that helps them so they can see what 

has not been admitted.

THE COURT: Let's do this. Also with respect to 

other lists, we have had objections that you had submitted, 

and you identified in those objections exhibits that you saw 

that had already previously been admitted, and you identified 

that in your objections. So that has been there, that we know 

some of those get on these lists. 

MS. DUNCAN: Correct, Your Honor. We have like -- 

All of us have master lists, the Government's exhibit list, 

and we are just keeping track of when exhibits are coming in 

and overruled, that sort of thing. So it is happening. 

What I think is causing some confusion, as we try to do 

that for exhibits coming in today, we are not able to do it 

quickly, because normally the Government will say, "We move 

into evidence Elbarasse Search No. 23, and we find it. But I 

think because that is not happening, it is causing some 

confusion and so I think we are confusing what was introduced 

a couple of weeks versus what is today.

MR. JONAS: My list, I am having a copy made. That 

way I don't have to worry.

THE COURT: Those are the exhibits that you have 

identified as not having been previously introduced and 

submitted? 

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MR. JONAS: Correct. And just to be clear, it only 

goes with regard to these specific zakat schedules, because 

after I move beyond these schedules I am going to go into a 

new area that may also have exhibits that have not been 

previously admitted, so I am clear. 

THE COURT: With Agent Burns, you are going to go to 

another -- 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: Then they are on the list? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Then they are admitted from this 

morning? 

MR. JONAS: Yes. What I am saying is The list I am 

going to give them of ones not admitted prior to this morning 

only covers the zakat schedules.

THE COURT: I got you.

MR. JONAS: When I am done going through the 

schedules, there is another section of her testimony that 

covers additional exhibits which are now admitted per Your 

Honor's ruling. 

THE COURT: That were admitted this morning? 

MR. JONAS: Correct. So I will address those with 

the Defense during lunch and let them know that this is the 

ones that were not admitted until this morning. 

Are we clear on that? 

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MS. DUNCAN: Thank you.

MS. HOLLANDER: I think maybe I am confusing things, 

but I think I figured something out. You admitted -- Your 

Honor admitted these exhibits, the majority of those that we 

had put into our objections? 

THE COURT: Right. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Some we had put into our objections. 

But I think what Ms. Duncan -- And she was in charge of this, 

and I think she didn't hear Your Honor say that. And that is 

part of the problem is that that didn't include all of 

our -- It included as much as we could get done by 6:00 

yesterday afternoon. There are still some that we just need 

to preserve, and those are the ones that she wants to be able 

to make the objection even if --

THE COURT: That is a problem that I have. We will 

have to discuss that further. I guess we can resolve that 

right now, because in my mind I had received the objections 

and it has been resolved, but we will go back to that.

MS. HOLLANDER: I think that is the problem, Your 

Honor.

THE COURT: I am not going to allow objections 

throughout the trial to the same exhibits. I want objections, 

I want to rule on them, and then we are done, and that is the 

procedure. 

MS. MORENO: And I appreciate that, Your Honor. Our 

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intent is not to waste the Court's time. Once in a while an 

exhibit will have 40 or 50 pages.

THE COURT: I understand that, counsel, but you have 

had these exhibits for months and months. I haven't.

MS. MORENO: I understand.

THE COURT: And there may be some new ones, but a 

lot of them have been there for a long time. These lists have 

been out -- This is not the first time around. That is still 

your job. That is just not acceptable to me that somehow you 

haven't had the time.

MS. MORENO: No. That wasn't my point, Your Honor. 

I am not quibbling with the Court. All I am saying is that 

sometimes there is a different focus on a particular exhibit. 

And so on some discreet portions of a particular exhibit from 

time to time I certainly have brought the Court's attention to 

certain areas.

THE COURT: I understand that. But that is the 

point I am making is we just can't keep allowing that to go on 

for the duration of the trial. Once you have been given an 

opportunity to object, and then I make the ruling anything, 

after that I am considering it waived and untimely, once you 

have been given that opportunity. We just don't keep going 

and going and going, and "I thought of something else." It 

doesn't work that way. That is really what you are saying, 

for whatever reason, you know, something else has come up; or 

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as Mr. Dratel was saying earlier, the use to which they are 

being put. Well, we don't know what they are being put in 

for, but once they are in they are in. Either side can use 

them for whatever purpose is proper. But We can't take new 

objections.

MS. MORENO: So I understand the Court's direction, 

is the Court saying that once you make your rulings, for 

instance in the morning to this comprehensive list, that the 

Court is not going to allow any further objections as to those 

particular -- 

THE COURT: As to those exhibits, yes. You have 

been given an opportunity to object. And that is why I am 

having the parties exchange the lists in advance is to avoid 

these objections during the testimony of the witness. And 

there are a lot of attorneys and a lot of objections, so it 

delays it. That is the purpose behind that, along with just 

the particular procedural posture of this case, that I didn't 

think that that would cause any harm to anybody. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, Two quick things. 

One is Mr. Jacks gave the Defense a copy of that 

demonstrative I mentioned earlier this morning. It has been 

created and they have copies now. 

And I late to do this. We need to have a real quick 

sidebar. 

THE COURT: Come on up. 

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MR. JONAS: I don't need this on the record. 

(discussion at the bench, out of the hearing of the 

reporter.)

THE COURT: All right. Ready? 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when we broke we were 

playing a portion of the Philadelphia meeting.

A. Yes.

Q. We have one more clip to play. 

MR. JONAS: Play Clip C, please, Philadelphia 

Meeting No. 13, clip C.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 13, Clip C was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see it says "Islamic 

Charitable Society located in Hebron"?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the HLF give to the Islamic Charitable Society in 

Hebron?

A. Yes.

Q. Agent Burns, do you see where he says, "The complex, 

Yassin"? What is the complex as it relates to your testimony 

this morning?

A. That is the Islamic Center of Gaza, and that is sheikh 

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Ahmed Yassin.

Q. And it says, "Islamic Society al-Kuka." Did the Holy 

Land Foundation give money the Islamic Society? 

A. Yes. The Islamic Society of Gaza.

Q. Does al-Kuka mean anything with regard to the Islamic 

Society of Gaza?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that?

A. Khalil al-Kuka was one of the leaders of the Islamic 

Society. We have seen him in one of our videotapes.

Q. Agent Burns, since we just discussed Islamic Society of 

Gaza, why don't we go to that chart. 

A. Okay.

MR. JONAS: Before we pull up the specific chart on 

the zakat schedules, lets go to the payment schedule first. 

If we can pull up Payments to Islamic Society of Gaza, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, is this the right exhibit 

for the society?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us the time period of payments between the 

Holy Land Foundation and the Islamic Society of Gaza, the 

first and last?

A. Yes. You can see that the first transaction that we have 

located here was November 23rd, 1992.

MR. JONAS: Go page by page, please, Agent Lewis.

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Before we go on, Agent Burns, what do we 

see in this page with regard to the transactions?

A. Again, these payments are listed chronologically by date, 

and so here because we have payments that go after the Hamas 

designation date, you have the line for January 23rd, 1995 

indicating the date that Hamas was designated, and then 

payments that are listed thereafter. And then there is the 

date for the Hamas designation as a foreign terrorist 

organization.

Q. Okay. 

A. And the transactions thereafter.

Q. And the transactions continue after Hamas was designated 

as a foreign terrorist organization?

A. Yes.

Q. When was the last transaction with the Islamic Society?

A. The last that we were able to track here was August 23rd, 

2001.

Q. How much total did the HLF pay to the Islamic Society?

A. $201,196 plus 68,792 Israeli shekels.

Q. Do you see where it says "destination payment to" on the 

previous page?

A. I do.

Q. Is there an individual listed?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

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A. Ahmad Bhar.

Q. Who is he?

A. He was one of the leaders of the Islamic Society of Gaza.

Q. Is he on the schedule we are about to go over for this 

organization?

A. Yes. 

Q. Did all the payments after a certain time, were they all 

in Israeli shekels from a certain time forward? 

A. I see that -- You know, you see the Israeli shekels and 

then there will be a dollar payment, and then there is Israeli 

shekels and a dollar payment. If you scroll to the next page 

I can confirm. No, they were intermixed.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can just look at -- Go back to the 

prior page, please. And let's look at HLF Foreign Account 

No. 1, page 281. This is a transaction on March 28th, 1995.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a translation of the Arabic on the previous page. 

It is a record from the HLF's Bank of Palestine account 

showing that the HLF paid Ahmad Bhar, and the payment 

identified him as the president of the Islamic Society, and it 

lists the amount in shekels.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Can we go back to the payment schedule, 

please?

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, with regard to the 

transaction that I just showed you, there is only one exhibit 

listed as supporting that transaction, the one we looked at. 

Did you or other agents search all the material that the FBI 

gathered to see if there is any other documentation supporting 

this transaction?

A. Yes. And other IRS agents examined the records and did 

not locate additional documentation regarding those specific 

transactions.

Q. Okay. If the FBI was not able to get the HLF bank 

account in the Bank of Palestine, would you have been able 

to -- How would you have been able to learn about this 

particular transaction to the Islamic Society?

A. Well, based on what we located, we would not have known 

about those had we not obtained the foreign accounts.

Q. In your experience as an agent, how does the FBI or the 

Government normally gather bank records?

A. Normally we subpoena the bank records.

Q. And what about if bank accounts are located in other 

countries?

A. Well, if it is a country that we have a mutual legal 

assistance treaty with, then we will seek those records 

officially through that mutual legal assistance treaty.

Q. Do you know if there is a mutual legal assistance treaty 

with the Palestinian Authority?

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A. There is no official relationship with them at all.

Q. How did the FBI get these records?

A. Through special subpoenas that came into effect 

after -- in recent years, like Patriot Act subpoenas, Nova 

Scotia subpoenas, things like that. 

Q. Those are subpoenas that are authorized by law?

A. Yes.

Q. And those require the banks to provide these records?

A. They do.

Q. Is this a new technique available to the FBI to gather 

bank records?

A. Yes, very recent.

Q. If it wasn't for this technique, would the FBI, would the 

Government have learned of these particular transactions to 

the Islamic Society after Hamas was designated?

A. I would not have learned of them, no.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Let's go to the Islamic Society of Gaza 

summary chart. So we are clear for the record, not the 

payments chart but the other chart that we discussed earlier. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, let's start with the first 

individual. Who is that?

A. Ahmad Bhar.

Q. You already mentioned him?

A. Yes.

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Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Let's look at HLF Search No. 156, page 

6, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this document?

A. This is a letter from the Islamic Society of Gaza dated 

November 12th, 2000 to the Holy Land Foundation, and it is 

signed by that individual Ahmad Bhar.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can look at El-Mezain Wiretap 

No. 1, page 89, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is Ahmad Bhar's name mentioned anywhere 

in this document?

A. It is, in paragraph one.

Q. Where does it say his name?

A. It says "Sheikh Ahmad Bhar, one of the Hamas movement 

leaders in the Gaza Strip." And this document I believe, if 

we go up to the date you can see that it predates that thank 

you letter by many years--December 17th, 1994.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Going back to the summary chart, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) We will move to the next individual. Who 

is that? 

MR. JONAS: Before we do that, can you just enlarge 

the top portion? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you just identify the names of the 

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people associated with the committee, since we will see their 

names on several documents together?

A. Yes. The names of the individuals that we will be 

discussing relating to this committee are Ahmed Bahr, Muhamad 

Barud, Khalil al-Kuka, Hamad al-Hassanat, and Ismail Haniya.

Q. Okay. Let's just go to Barud for a moment. Actually 

before we do that, has there been a videotape that identifies 

any of these individuals?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was the videotape seized from, if you recall?

A. I believe the one that we are referencing was seized at 

InfoCom. There were several videotapes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play InfoCom Search No. 57. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, before this plays, does this 

videotape -- is this in connection to the Islamic Society of 

Gaza that you are now testifying about?

A. Yes. This tape relates to a summer camp that was funded 

by the HLF through the Islamic Society of Gaza.

Q. Does this videotape identify some of the members of the 

committee?

A. It does.

Q. If we can play the tape, please.

(Whereupon, InfoCom Search No. 57 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, can you see what they are 

holding?

A. Yes.

Q. What?

A. Automatic weapons.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, did you see where it says -- in the 

top right hand side it is a translation of the banners. Is 

that correct?

A. Yes. You are going to see these children carrying 

banners, and as the banners come into view, the translation 

will appear up in the right hand corner.

Q. We first saw "Quran is our" -- do you recall what it said 

a moment ago?

A. "Quran is our constitution," I think, or some form of 

that.

Q. And "jihad is our path"?

A. Correct.

Q. Have we seen that phrase, or at least this being part of 

a larger phrase, in the evidence in this case?

A. In the evidence in this case we have seen it.

Q. Where?

A. In the Hamas charter.

Q. Agent Burns, where he says, "Who are deported from it in 

Marj al-Zahour," is that the deportation you testified earlier 

about in Lebanon?

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A. It is.

Q. Khalid al-Kuka, is he on your schedule?

A. He is.

Q. Ahmad Bhar, is he on your schedule?

A. He is.

Q. You testified about him already?

A. Yes. He was the one identified in the fax as one of the 

Hamas leaders.

Q. Hamad al-Hassanet, is he on the schedule for the Islamic 

Society of Gaza?

A. He is.

Q. Muhamad Barud, is he on the schedule?

A. He is. 

Q. Ismail Haniya, is he on the schedule for the Islamic 

Society of Gaza?

A. He is.

Q. Have we seen him elsewhere in this case?

A. Yes. In one of the videotapes that we played of the 

deportees, he was one of the individuals that was chatting and 

identified on that tape. He is also on your Hamas leader 

chart.

Q. Demonstrative No. 17?

A. Yes.

Q. I won't pull that one out again. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the schedule. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Khalil al-Kuka, you identified him twice. 

I believe his name was mentioned in the Philadelphia Meeting 

No. 13, the clip we played, as well as that last clip?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to HLF Search No. 109, page 

143, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see Khalil al-Kuka's name anywhere 

in the document?

A. I do. It says -- I am trying to figure out where to 

start reading. "It started those by deporting one of the most 

renowned preachers in the Gaza Sector." 

Q. If you could slow down, please.

A. I am sorry. And I should probably start reading from 

above that. It says, "The occupation authorities, political, 

administrative, and security apparatuses intensified their 

scrutiny of Hamas. They worked through their agents and eyes 

to collect as much information as possible, through which they 

could reach the suitable way to deal with this movement. This 

does not mean that the enemy during this stage has been lax in 

dealing with Hamas and ignored its moving and effectiveness, 

but it worked while monitoring it to deal preventative blows 

to it. It started those by deporting one of the most renowned 

preachers in the Gaza Sector, sheikh Khalil al-Kuka, and 

followed that a few months later by deporting 21 members of 

the teaching staff of the Islamic University of Gaza." And it 

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goes on.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Let's go back to the schedule, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) The next person there is Hamad 

al-Hassanet. Was his name mentioned in the clip from the 

summer camp that we just played?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there another video that he appears on?

A. Yes, there are two.

Q. Okay. We are going to play one of them. 

A. Okay.

MR. JONAS: HLF Search No. 70, if we can pull that 

up. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I assume you have seen this 

video?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you just tell us -- First of all, where was this tape 

seized from?

A. This tape was seized from the HLF offices.

Q. And so I am clear, with this video, as with all the 

videos that have been played in this case, has the FBI changed 

the content in any way at all?

A. No. We only selected portions to play, but those 

portions are in tact as they were on the original tape.

Q. Okay. Where is this tape -- where does the tape take 

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place?

A. Let me add that we added the translations.

Q. Okay. 

A. Okay? This tape takes place are during the deportations 

of the Marj al-Zahour deportees.

Q. Okay. Let's play the tape, please.

(Whereupon, HLF Search No. 70 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, just so we can orientate 

ourselves, this picture that is on the screen right now, is 

this from -- If you know, if you know, is this from the Marj 

al-Zahour deportation? Is this Lebanon?

A. No. This is the introduction, so this is not -- This was 

an introduction, and then it will go on to the area of Lebanon 

to where they were deported.

Q. Is this introduction telling you -- setting up what you 

are going to see?

A. Yes, it is about to tell you that it is an interview with 

the deported brothers.

Q. So when you identify what this tape is about, did you get 

that identification from the tape itself?

A. From the tape itself.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, the individual on the left, who is 

that?

A. That is Abdel Aziz Rantisi, the Hamas leader on your 

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chart there.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, the individual who is speaking, who 

was identified on the screen as Ghazi, Do you see that? 

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Let me show you -- I am holding up HLF Search No. 87, the 

overseas speakers chart. Are you familiar with this document?

A. I am.

Q. Is his name on this document?

A. It is.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am approaching the 

witness.

THE WITNESS: No. 25.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) No. 25? 

A. Yes.

Q. Agent Burns, did the FBI put that symbol on the screen?

A. No. That symbol was on the tape in its original form.

Q. Who is this individual?

A. This individual is Hamas al-Hassanat, who is one of the 

individuals on the chart that was identified in the previous 

video as a leader in the Islamic Society of Gaza.

Q. And he is on your schedule?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. It says Islamic Society. Is that the same Islamic 

Society of Gaza that you are testifying about right now?

A. Yes.

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Q. "He is the father of martyr Yasser al-Hassanat." Are we 

going to talk about his son a little bit later?

A. Yes.

Q. What is Izz el-Din al-Quassam?

A. That is the military wing of Hamas, and you saw that 

referenced when they were speaking of Yasser Hassanat, Hamad 

al-Hassanat's son, as well.

Q. Agent Burns, do you know who this individual is?

A. Aziz Dwaik.

Q. Is he involved in any of the zakat committees?

A. I don't have him listed on any of these zakat charts.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, are there other individuals on this 

tape that are referenced in your zakat charts for other 

committees, not just the Islamic Society of Gaza?

A. Yes.

Q. Have we come across any others yet?

A. We have one I believe in the beginning. I can't remember 

exactly who it was, but I know we passed him.

Q. Okay. If you see any others that are going to be 

referenced later in your testimony that are on your schedules, 

let us know, we will pause it, and you can identify it. This 

way we don't have to play the clip for each schedule. 

A. Okay. 

This is one of those individuals.

Q. Who is this?

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A. This is Jamal Mansour. He is referenced on the Islamic 

Relief Committee schedule. 

Q. Did the HLF Give money to the Islamic Relief Committee?

A. Yes.

This is one of those individuals.

Q. And who is this?

A. This is Mohamed Fuad Abu Zeid of the Jenin zakat 

committee.

Q. Did the HLF give money to the Jenin zakat committee?

A. Yes.

Q. I take it he is 59 years old during this video?

A. Yes.

This is one of those individuals. 

Q. Which committee is he affiliated with?

A. The Nablus zakat committee.

Q. Is your information as to where these individuals are 

associated with which committees, is that all coming from the 

evidence like we are seeing it on the tape now as they 

self-identify?

A. Yes. Here often they self-identify and identify which 

committee they are a part of, but once we get to those charts 

there is also other evidence listing those individuals and 

their connections to the committee.

Q. Okay. 

A. This is one of those individuals.

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Q. Which committee is he with?

A. With the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron.

Q. Did the HLF give money to the Islamic Charitable Society 

of Hebron?

A. Yes.

Q. Agent Burns, do you see it says MAYA?

A. Yes.

Q. Muslim Arab Youth Association?

A. That is correct.

Q. Have we seen MAYA mentioned in this case before?

A. Yes. There is a videotape actually from this MAYA 

conference in late 1992 that has been addressed in this case. 

We have also seen it listed as part of the U.S. Muslim 

Brotherhood's organizations, and Shukri Abu Baker was linked 

to it on some of those documents that we looked at in my first 

testimony.

Q. Okay. Who is Mahmoud Zahar?

A. He is a Hamas leader in Gaza that is on your 

Demonstrative No. 17.

Q. Have we seen him in other videos in this case?

A. We saw him in the video from 1990 seated in the audience 

next to the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain and Hamas leader 

sheikh Jamil Hamami.

Q. Is he referenced by any of the Defendants in that 

particular video?

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A. He was. He was thanked by Shukri Abu Baker for 

attending.

Q. Who is Sheikh Mohammad El-Mezain?

A. That is the Defendant.

Q. On the screen it says brother Shukri Abu Baker. Who is 

that?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Who is Haitham Maghawri?

A. He was one of the HLF officers.

Q. Agent Burns, what does the Hamas charter say about peace 

initiatives?

A. They are opposed to any type of compromise or peace 

process with the Israelis.

Q. Do you recognize who is speaking?

A. I do.

Q. Who is that?

A. That is Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar.

Q. Is he also on Demonstrative No. 17, the Hamas leaders 

chart?

A. Yes.

Q. Agent Burns, did you see in that second clip where 

Ghazi--or the third clip, I can't remember--was referring to 

traveling around the United States at the request of the Holy 

Land Foundation?

A. Yes.

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Q. And in that clip you saw the symbol of Hamas on the clip?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Baker Declaration, 

page 2, please. Enlarge the middle. 

Q. (BY MR. BAKER) What does Shukri Baker say in his sworn 

statement in the first line of paragraph 7?

A. In his sworn statement he says, "Neither I nor to my 

knowledge any of the other founders of this charity have had 

any connection whatever to Hamas, or to any terrorist groups, 

or to terrorism. I do not believe that suicide bombing is 

countenanced by the Islamic religion. I have always opposed 

radicalism. I have always been for dialogue and for peace, 

and I am firm in these convictions. I am confident that the 

other founders of the Holy Land Foundation feel the same way. 

Our objective was, and has always been, simply to alleviate 

suffering in Palestine and elsewhere."

MR. JONAS: Go back to the chart for Islamic Society 

of Gaza. Enlarge the top, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) We didn't discuss any exhibits supporting 

Ismail Haniya, but have we seen his name several times in your 

testimony this morning?

A. Yes, we have.

MR. JONAS: We will move on to the general committee 

section of this chart. If we can turn to HLF Search No. 85, 

page 3, please. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this item?

A. This is a thank you letter from the Islamic Society of 

Gaza to the Holy Land Foundation dated December 24th, 1999.

Q. Was this after or before Hamas was designated as a 

terrorist organization by the United States?

A. This was after.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to El-Mezain Wiretap No. 1, 

page 150, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is there anything in here referencing 

anyone from the Islamic Society of Gaza or the committee 

itself?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is that?

A. Hold on. I think it is at the top up above where it says 

"Palestinian sources in the Gaza Strip said that Palestinian 

police continued its arrest campaign in the ranks of Hamas 

Movement. Sources from the town of Jabalia near the city of 

Gaza said that members of the police arrested Dr. Muhammad 

Shihab from the Hamas Movement who also heads of the Islamic 

Society in town."

Q. Is Shihab on your list?

A. No.

Q. Is that the same Islamic Society that you have been 

testifying about?

A. It is. And actually it is the same branch, the Jabalia 

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branch. They had little field offices, and it is that same 

branch that we saw in the previous letter.

Q. Okay. Finally, Agent Burns, I am not going to replay 

this, tape but in the Philadelphia Meeting No. 13 that we 

played -- 

A. Yes.

Q. -- Was the Islamic Society mentioned?

A. It was.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: May I have the elmo real quick? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see where I am highlighting?

A. I do.

Q. That is the Islamic Society?

A. Yes.

Q. Thanks. 

Are you ready to move on to another schedule.

A. Okay.

Q. Are you familiar with an organization called the al-Salah 

Society?

A. I am.

Q. Did the HLF make payments to the al-Salah Society?

A. They did.

MR. JONAS: If we can get that chart on the screen, 

please, Payments to al-Salah. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when is the first payment 

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that the HLF made to the al-Salah Society?

A. November 2 3rd, 1992.

Q. When is the last date? 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the next page. 

THE WITNESS: March 3rd, 1999.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) How many transactions were there after 

Hamas became designated as a specially designated terrorist in 

1995?

A. Through bank records I was only able to track one.

Q. Did you come across any evidence that we are going to 

talk about that there were additional transactions that you 

were not able to find financial transactions supporting?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. How much in total did the HLF pay to the al-Salah 

Society?

A. The payments we were able to track through the bank 

records were $234,022. 

MR. JONAS: Let's look at HLF Bank Account No. 1, 

page 414. And look at the transaction on May 20th, 1994 for 

$13,500. Before we go there, if you can go back to the last 

page, since you pulled it up. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, what is this document?

A. This is part of -- the signature card for one of the 

HLF's bank accounts at Bank One.

Q. Who are the signatories on this?

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A. The Defendants Ghassan Elashi and Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to page 414, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does this page anywhere reference a 

payment to al-Salah?

A. This indicates the wire transfer.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the payment 

schedule, please.

Go a back to HLF Foreign Account No. 1, page 483, please. 

I apologize. It is HLF Bank Account No. 1.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And Agent Burns, what is the difference 

between HLF Bank Account No. 1 and HLF foreign account?

A. HLF Bank Account No. 1 would be from an HLF bank account 

in the United States, and we have that chart showing exactly 

which bank that would be from. And a foreign account 

obviously would be one of its bank accounts in the 

territories.

MR. JONAS: I am going to move on. Can we pull up 

the al-Salah Society schedule; not the payment schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. Agent Burns, you only have one 

individual listed on this schedule. 

A. Yes.

Q. Why is that?

A. Because that was the primary individual with whom the HLF 

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dealt in this committee.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Can we pull up HLF Search No. 157, page 

4, please? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a letter from Ahmad al-Kurd of the al-Salah 

Society to the HLF, thanking them for their assistance and 

services. And it is dated June 13th, 1999.

Q. Did you find any documents to support this payment, any 

documents within the HLF search warrant material, InfoCom 

search warrant material, or anything else?

A. I could not link this specifically to a transaction 

through the financial records from the United States.

Q. Were you able to link this through records from overseas 

bank accounts?

A. No.

Q. Other than this letter, do you know -- was there any 

evidence to show that this transaction actually happened?

A. Not that I and the IRS agents found.

Q. And al-Kurd who signs it, is that the al-Kurd that is on 

the schedule for al-Salah Society?

A. It is.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to InfoCom Search No. 90, 

page 4, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

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A. This is a project report. This is the second page. The 

document was originally in Arabic, and it was two pages in 

Arabic and two pages of translation. This is the second page 

of the translation just showing that the letter from al-Salah 

you can see at the bottom was signed by the person in charge 

Ahmad al-Kurd, the same individual on this chart, and the 

date, and he was listed as chairman of the association.

Q. Did you come across any evidence that you testified about 

that connects al-Salah to Hamas? 

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to El-Mezain Wiretap 

No. 1, page 80, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is al-Salah referenced here?

A. It is in the last paragraph on this page.

Q. What does it say about this?

A. It says, "Al-Salah Islamic Society in the Gaza Strip 

announced it will sponsor families and victims of the bloody 

confrontations which took place in the Gaza Strip this 

November 18th. Sheikh Ahmad al-Kurd, head of the Society, 

said that his association decided to sponsor the children of 

all martyrs killed during the events of sad Friday. Al-Kurd 

also pointed out that his society supports hundreds of 

families of martyrs. It is worth mentioning that the Society 

is closely associated with the Hamas movement."

Q. And El-Mezain Wiretap No. 1, Who received that?

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A. That was the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain That was 

obtained from his fax.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the top of the page, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the date of the fax?

A. November 27th, 1994.

Q. Was al-Salah Society mentioned in the Philadelphia 

meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. Any videotapes of al-Salah Society? 

MR. JONAS: Actually, before we do that, let's pull 

up HLF Search No. 102, page 7, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, what is this document?

A. This is a school backpack report showing that the Holy 

Land Foundation financed this project that was executed by the 

al-Salah Islamic association in the year 2000.

Q. Was this document before or after that fax to the 

Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain identifying al-Salah as being a 

part of Hamas?

A. Six years after the Defendant El-Mezain received the fax 

identifying the society as Hamas.

Q. Any videotapes of al-Salah Society, or referencing 

al-Salah Society.

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play InfoCom Search No. 66.

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(Whereupon, InfoCom Search No. 66 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where it says al-Kurd, is that the 

individual identified on your chart as Ahmad al-Kurd?

A. Yes. Just before this there was a caption that announced 

that it was the al-Salah Society and Ahmad al-Kurd, and he is 

speaking here.

Q. Do you know what year this videotape is from?

A. I was not able to date this.

Q. Agent Burns, did you notice a progression of 

payments -- Withdrawn. The first two committees we talked 

about, the Islamic Center and the Islamic Society, both of 

Gaza, where are they located?

A. They are in Gaza, as is the al-Salah Society.

Q. Okay. Did you notice a progression of payments coming 

from the HLF to these committees that we are talking about and 

will be talking about over a period of time?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Can you explain what you noticed?

A. In the beginning, in the very beginning we noticed that 

the payments were initially going to the Islamic Center of 

Gaza and to Gaza, in addition to one other organization in 

Israel.

Q. Is that what you testified about in your first testimony 

when you pulled up those schedule of payments in the early 

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years of HLF 1988 and '89? 

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. 

A. Then we noticed in approximately 1991 the HLF started to 

expand and send its money to certain committees in the West 

Bank as opposed to Gaza. We will talk about that or those 

committees in a little bit.

Q. Is there any evidence that we have seen or will be seeing 

that addresses that as not being a coincidence?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can put up on the screen Elbarasse 

Search No. 22, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document, Agent Burns?

A. This is a letter that was seized at the home of Ismail 

Elbarasse during that search warrant in like 2004, and it is a 

letter to Shukri from 1991, and it is in Arabic and the 

English translation is -- the individual is writing to Shukri 

about the zakat committees and the endorsed charitable 

organizations. And below it is a list of committees and a 

column called "percentage," which shows what amount of control 

they have over the committee, and then remarks.

Q. Okay. How are you able to date this document?

A. It is dated on top July 14th, 1991.

Q. Does this document identify the committees that the HLF 

gave financial support to that you have already testified 

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about in your payment section of your testimony?

A. It references those committees.

Q. How does this feed into what you testified about of the 

progression of payments starting with Gaza and then spreading 

to include the West Bank over time?

A. Taking into account this exhibit, as well as another 

exhibit from the Ashqar search that we will probably talk 

about in a minute, and the Philadelphia meeting that we have 

already discussed, these individuals were studying the 

committees and attempting to take control of them, and this 

document in 1991 -- 

MS. MORENO: Objection, Your Honor; improper 

opinion, "attempted to take control." There is no basis of 

that improper summary testimony.

THE COURT: Do you want to lay a predicate? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when you are saying they are 

attempting to take control, where are you getting that from? 

A. Based on the language and context within this document, 

within the document entitled Ashqar No. 5, or labeled Ashqar 

No. 5, and the Philadelphia meeting, where these individuals 

that are part of this Palestine Committee discuss what amount 

of control they have over these committees.

Q. Okay. Starting with this document, can you point to us 

where -- 

MS. CADEDDU: In which case, I object as an improper 

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expert testimony.

THE COURT: Overrule that objection, and overrule 

the previous objection by Ms. Moreno.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you point to us where in this 

particular document it says that?

A. We can take, No. 1, for example, where it says, "Ramallah 

zakat committee, all of it is ours."

Q. Okay. And where does it say about taking control of the 

committees in here?

A. Well, by the context it says, like under Bethlehem zakat, 

"we have 7 out of 11, and it includes the individuals' names. 

And then if you scroll on down, there will be a committee that 

says, "We have nobody in it."

Q. Okay. 

A. And then under Qalqilya it says, "All of it is ours, and 

it is guaranteed."

Q. Will we come back to this document?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Next page, please. 

THE WITNESS: And, for example, under No. 13, under 

Bir Nibalah zakat it says, "Guaranteed, trustworthy, and we 

have the final word in it."

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. So how do you go from this 

document to they, being Hamas, was trying to take over the 

committees?

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A. Well, this document was from 1991.

Q. Right. 

A. The document Ashqar No. 5 was from 1988, which shows --

MR. JONAS: Let's go to Ashqar No. 5. If we can get 

it on the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And we may be doing this in reverse 

order. 

A. It is important to look at these in the chronological 

order, this document being the earlier one from, based on the 

content, around '88, '89.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Next page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) It is in Arabic, obviously?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. JONAS: Keep going to the English, please. 

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, can we have a continuing 

objection to improper expert testimony, please? 

THE COURT: You may have that, and that is 

overruled. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where is this document talking about the 

committees?

A. I believe it is around page 20 for the reference. Yes, 

here it is. 

MR. JONAS: May I approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

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THE WITNESS: Thank you. And just -- The first page 

indicates that this is a work paper on rearranging the frame 

of the work inside. And the document talks about various 

items dealing with the inside, including items and Hamas. 

Under this section on page 20 it is entitled "social and 

charitable work," and it says, "This work is considered the 

Movement's pulse among the masses and its banner in solving 

their problems and alleviating their worries, as the enemy 

does not provide even the least minimum" --

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am sorry. Do you see on the page you 

are referring to on the screen?

A. Yes.

Q. Which portion of the page, so we can follow along?

A. I was just kind of giving the context in the first 

paragraph. I think you were asking me where the committees 

were listed, and they are just below. 

And again this document, based on the content, can be 

dated around 88 to '89, so it is an early document. And it 

lists the committees and identifies how many people and what 

kind of presence they have in these committees. 

And, for example, in Nablus it has two Islamists and the 

rest are dignitaries. The next one, it says, "The Islamic 

Charitable Society in Hebron, there is a decent Islamic 

presence in it." Under the Islamic Center of Gaza, "Its 

management is entirely in the hands of the Islamists, but the 

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Authority places hurdles in front of it." 

The Islamic Society of Gaza, "Same thing as the Islamic 

Center." The Nablus zakat committee, "One of the brothers 

work in it and the rest are dignitaries." And it goes on, 

showing that they only had one or two people in these 

committees. 

The same thing for Jenin zakat. It says, "Same as the 

previous," which is "two are supporters and the rest are 

dignitaries." 

So if you look at what they are saying in this document, 

which is 1989 to 1989, and then you go to the document that we 

were just looking at from 1991 -- 

Q. Hold on. Let's pull that up. 

MR. JONAS: Elbarasse Search No. 22, please.

THE WITNESS: According to what they say, "They have 

gained more control. All of it is ours." Under Jenin zakat, 

which in 1988 they only had two in, "This one is now 

guaranteed, by virtue of Mohammad Fuad Abu Zeid's position." 

So that is what I was talking about with the progression.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) When did the Philadelphia meeting happen 

again?

A. In 1993, two years after this letter.

Q. And we played that -- Withdrawn. Did we play the portion 

of the Philadelphia meeting that addressed what you are 

referring to right now?

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A. Yes. We played the part where Muin Shabib identified 

"our organizations," is what he said.

Q. So based upon these documents and what Muin Shabib says 

at the Philadelphia meeting, were you able to track a 

progression of control over some of these committees?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And from that did you look at the HLF payments to 

these committees and see a correlation in where the payments 

were going?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was that correlation?

A. It was that in approximately 1991, the year that this 

letter came out, the HLF -- we began seeing payments from the 

HLF to some of these committees in the West Bank, including 

the Jenin zakat committee that is listed as guaranteed here.

Q. Okay. We will talk more about the Jenin zakat committee, 

then. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put on the screen the schedule 

labeled "Payments to Jenin Zakat Committee." Enlarge the top, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when was the first payment 

to the Jenin zakat committee?

A. May 1st, 1991.

Q. And who made those payments or who authorized those 

payments?

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A. The Defendants Ghassan Elashi and Shukri Abu Baker.

MR. JONAS: If you can scroll through the schedule, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Did the HLF continue making payments to 

the Jenin zakat committee after Hamas was first designated as 

a specially designated terrorist organization?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they continue making payments after Hamas was again 

designated by the U.S. Government as a foreign terrorist 

organization?

A. They did.

Q. Agent Burns, when was the last payment to the Jenin zakat 

committee?

A. October 11th, 2001.

Q. How much in total did the HLF pay to the Jenin zakat 

committee?

A. We identified $554,500.

Q. Do you see on this page that three of the four 

transactions only have one supporting documentation to show. 

A. Yes.

Q. Can you explain that?

A. Well, the supporting documentation in those transactions 

came from the HLF foreign bank records that we received 

showing payments out of the HLF's foreign bank account in the 

territories to the Jenin zakat.

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Q. And again, if you didn't have those foreign bank records, 

would you have been able to locate -- Based upon the evidence 

you gathered in the United States, were you able to identify 

this transaction?

A. Based on what we looked at, we did not find those 

transactions in the information that we had over here.

Q. Do you see the transaction marked June 14th, 2001 as the 

second one from the top?

A. Yes.

Q. There is a tab on the far right. Can you remind us what 

that is?

A. That means that that particular transaction is referenced 

in the indictment in Count 1, Overt Act No. 8.

Q. And that particular transaction also has two numbers next 

to it?

A. Yes.

Q. The amount and amount to Jenin can you explain what that 

is again?

A. Well, that means that the first amount listed was the 

total wire transfer that was transferred from the Holy Land 

Foundation bank account here in the U.S. to the HLF foreign 

bank account at the Cairo Amman Bank and that we were able 

through the records to trace $4,412 of that money to the Jenin 

zakat.

Q. Of the $192,000 wire?

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A. Correct.

Q. Cairo Amman Bank, do you know where the branch was that 

the HLF had their account?

A. It was either in Gaza or Hebron, I believe. It was 

somewhere in Gaza or the West Bank.

Q. Not in Cairo, Egypt?

A. No.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Let's pull up HLF Search No. 36, page 

188, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Let's look at the documents supporting 

that transaction. What is this document? Does this relate to 

this transaction?

A. I think we are waiting on the page to be pulled up. 

MR. JONAS: HLF Search No. 35. I am sorry. I 

couldn't read the number on the screen. My fault, Your Honor. 

THE WITNESS: It is No. 35.

MR. JONAS: HLF Search No. 35, page 186. That is 

better. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) How does that -- What is this document 

and how does it relate to the transaction?

A. This is part of the internal documentation that goes to 

support that $192,403 wire transfer. There were a number of 

these requests for transfer of funds found at the Holy Land 

Foundation which tended to show where the money was destined, 

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and you often have to add them up to come to the total. 

MR. JONAS: Can we go to HLF Foreign Account No. 6, 

page 44, please?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, on the schedule it says HLF 

Foreign Account No. 6, page 44. If we go to that in the hard 

copy, would that support that transaction as well? 

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to the Jenin zakat committee 

schedule, not the payments to, the other schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) There is a lot of names on this one. 

A. Yes.

Q. Can you identify for us who are the members of the 

committee based on the evidence in this case?

A. The individuals that we identified that were important in 

this committee were Fawaz Hamad, Zeid Zakarneh, Ahmed Salatna, 

Mohamed Fuad Abu Zeid, Adeeb Aboushi, Ziyad Abdel Ghani Issa, 

Walid Jarrar, and Naser Yusef.

Q. Okay. I am not going to start with the first one, Fawaz 

Hamad. I am going to jump to the middle. It doesn't mean I 

am not going to get to Fawaz Hamad, but I want to start with 

someone else. Let's start with Mohamed Abu Zeid. 

MR. JONAS: Let's look at InfoCom Search No. 30, 

page 10, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a letter from Fawaz Hamad, who is also on the 

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schedule, and it is a letter to the Defendant Mohammad 

El-Mezain regarding the Jenin zakat committee and its 

hospital, and the members of the hospital board and the zakat 

committee board.

Q. Okay. And is Mohamed Abu Zeid listed anywhere in this?

A. Yes. He is listed toward the bottom of page 10 as No. 1, 

the board of directors for the hospital, which is the Jenin 

zakat committee's hospital is Sheikh Mohamed Fuad Abu Zeid, 

chairman, deportee brother. And as we saw in the previous 

deportee tent he was the 59-year-old, and had the head dress.

Q. Okay. Is there anyone else in this listing here that is 

on your schedule, just so we don't have to keep going back to 

this document?

Yes. You have No. 1, Mr. Abu Zeid; No. 2, Zeid 

Zakarneh; No. 3, Adeeb Aboushi; No. 4, Walid Jarrar; and if 

you are scroll to the next page there may be another. I will 

have to check. No. 9, Fawaz Hamad; and No. 10, Ziyad Abdel 

Ghani, which is Ziyad Abdel Ghani Issa.

Q. No. 10, Ziyad Abdel Ghani, where it says deportee 

brother, did we see him in -- We will call that that tent 

video where they sat around the tent and identified 

themselves. For reference it is HLF Search NO. 70 for the 

record, but for our conversation here, if you will just call 

it the tent video. In that tent video, was he in that?

A. No, but he was in that list of deportees we identified as 

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coming from InfoCom.

Q. Okay. Okay. Staying with Mohamed Abu Zeid, did we see 

him mentioned in another video?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: What I would like to play is the video 

MAYA conference. If we can play Clip F, starting at the 

four-minute mark. 

(Whereupon, MAYA Conference Video, Clip F at 4 

minutes was played, while questions were 

propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is this individual?

A. This is Hamas leader Khalid Mishal, and this is taking 

place at the MAYA conference in 1992 that was discussed in 

that tent video. 

Q. It says Sheikh Mohamed Fuad Abu Zeid. Is that part of 

what you are referring to, part of the Jenin zakat committee?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: That is enough. Let's look at HLF 

Search No. 109, page 142. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is Mohamed Abu Zeid mentioned in this?

A. Is this -- It should be HLF Search No. 109, page 142.

Q. What is HLF Search No. 109, agent Burns?

A. It is the book about Hamas that came from the Defendant 

Abdulrahman Odeh's office that we have referenced several 

times, and he is mentioned in that and he is mentioned in that 

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translation.

MR. JONAS: It could be page 143. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where do you see his name?

A. In the paragraph it says, "The occupation authorities 

also arrested many ranking personalities and figures and 

sentenced them to various administrative sentences. The most 

ranking among those are," and the first person listed is 

Sheikh Mohamed Fuad Abu Zeid.

Q. What is the subject matter of this book?

A. It is a study of Hamas.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Elbarasse Search No. 22, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Remind us what this document is. 

A. This is the letter to Shukri from 1991 analyzing the 

breakdown of the committees.

MR. JONAS: Page 40, please. 

THE WITNESS: And under Jenin zakat, you can see 

there No. 3. It says, "It is guaranteed by virtue of Mohamed 

Fuad Abu Zeid's position, and that is the same individual that 

we saw in the tent video and we saw reference by Khalid 

Mishal.

Q. What committee is that referencing?

A. The Jenin zakat committee.

Q. That is the one we are talking about now?

A. That is correct.

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MR. JONAS: Let's go back to that schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Let's now go back to the name on the far 

left, Fawaz Hamad. 

A. Okay.

Q. Let's look at what connects him to the committee. 

MR. JONAS: InfoCom Search No. 93 page 2, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a letter from the Tulkarem zakat to the HLF 

through their respectable representative in the Jenin zakat 

committee Mr. Fawaz Hamad.

Q. Did Fawaz Hamad wear two hats? 

A. Yes.

Q. What do I mean when I say two hats?

A. He had two jobs, basically, in this context.

Q. What were those two jobs?

A. He was a representative of the Jenin zakat committee and 

he was also the HLF representative in Jenin area.

Q. Does this letter on the screen now, InfoCom Search No. 

93, which job does this reference?

A. His job with the Jenin zakat committee.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to HLF Search No. 160, page 

69, please. 

THE WITNESS: I believe this is the Arabic.

MR. JONAS: Next page. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what does this say?

A. This is a letter and it refers to Fawaz Hamad as a 

representative of the HLF.

Q. Is this where you are getting, or a letter like this is 

where you are getting the connection?

A. This, among other things.

Q. His other job to the HLF?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: InfoCom Search No. 30, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) We have seen this document before. 

Correct?

A. Yes, we just looked at a very small portion of it.

Q. How does this relate to Fawaz Hamad?

A. This is a letter from him, and you see at the top of 

page 8 the translation. It is addressed to brother Abu 

Ibrahim, who is the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain. And in this 

letter you can see he discusses the Jenin zakat's hospital as 

well as the Jenin zakat and their board members, as you go 

through it.

Q. Is this what we looked at a moment ago to identify 

Mohamed Abu Zeid as well as other Jenin zakat members?

A. Yes, but I think we wanted to look at a couple of more 

pages in it.

Q. Okay. 

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A. Here on this page 9 he is still talking about the zakat 

committee's hospital, and he has noted individuals at the 

bottom who are current employees, and then he identifies them 

as Islamists or a returning deportee, supports the Islamic 

block, things like that. He has actually broken them down by 

what they are.

Q. Agent Burns, did you come across any evidence that would 

explain why the hospital needs to know whether the doctors are 

Islamists or not?

A. No.

MR. JONAS: The next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is the page we looked at before?

A. It is, identifying again the hospital board, and it 

identifies them as Islamists.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to Ashqar search -- 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am sorry. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: There were a couple of more pages I 

think that -- 

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to that, InfoCom 

Search No. 30. Sorry. I jumped the gun. 

THE WITNESS: And if you scroll through to the next 

page, he starts talking about the actual members of the 

committee itself; again, most of the same individuals. And he 

identifies whether they are Islamists. One of the individuals 

listed is No. 12 Abdel Qader Azzam, who is listed here as the 

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brother of martyr Abdullah Azzam.

Q. Have we seen Abdullah Azzam in this case?

A. Yes. He was the individual seen on the videotapes where 

the HLF ads were playing. He was the Palestinian martyr. He 

was also in that Illa Falistine that we saw where his 

martyrdom was announced. 

If you scroll again to the next page.

MR. JONAS: Go back to the bottom again. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does that last few lines say?

A. "Generally speaking, there is a control by the brothers 

of the zakat committee and matters run as they wish. The 

committee's chairman is very sympathetic to Islamists' 

requests, and no one is hired without consulting to the 

brothers." 

And if you scroll again to the next page, he goes on to 

describe the future of the charitable organizations. And I 

won't bore you with reading all of it. 

If you scroll to the next -- Actually go back to the 

previous page just for a second. At the bottom he says, "I 

expect that Arafat will try to build bridges of trust with the 

opposition in the beginning of the self-rule and will avoid 

confrontation due to his occupation with internal conflicts, 

the strength of the opposition, and the deep family roots in 

Palestine which will make it hard for him to strike the 

Islamists as it is happening in Egypt." 

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If you go on to the next page, at the top he says, 

"Therefore exaggerated fear is not desirable and work ought to 

be done with the same strength but with more logic. In that 

respect, a number of projects could be carried out under 

national companies whereby a number of brothers obtain a 

license for health, productive, or educational projects, and 

they are not under the Authority. This is in regards to 

Hamas' money which does not come from official 

organizations." 

MR. WESTFALL: What year is that? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you know the year this document was 

created?

A. Based on the content, it is discussing the upcoming 

self-rule, so it is around the time of the signing of Oslo.

MR. DRATEL: And that would be?

THE WITNESS: 1993. 

If you look actually at the last paragraph, it says, "The 

Accord the dead and stillborn, and that forward steps must be 

taken. The strength of the Islamists in the zakat committees 

in the Bank depends on the strength of the brothers in 

Jordan." Because he is referencing the Accord again, I would 

say that it happened in 1993. 

MR. JONAS: Let's go to Ashqar Search No. 6, please, 

page 13. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Again, we are talking about Mohamed Abu 

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Zeid for the moment?

THE COURT: Well, this looks like it is a good 

breaking point for lunch. 

Lets's take a lunch break. Be back at 1:45. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Anything else we need to address? 

MS. CADEDDU: Yes, Your Honor. I just want to make 

something clear for the record. I want to renew and make sure 

I have preserved an objection under 403, 701, and 702 to Agent 

Burns testifying as she has been; and under 701, that would be 

improper lay opinion; 702, that she hasn't been qualified as 

an expert and lack of notice if she is going to testify as an 

expert. And the case law I would like to address the Court's 

attention to, the first case is U.S. v. Lopez-Moreno, 420 

F.3d, 420. That is Fifth Circuit 2005. And in that case 

Chief Judge King in a specially concurring opinion opined that 

a Government lay witness is dangerously close to evading 

strictures on lay testimony. The witness was a Border Patrol 

agent. And the Government asked whether based upon his 

training he could identify that passengers in a car were 

illegal aliens, and he opined that they were. 

In U.S. v. Garcia, a DEA agent testified that in his 

opinion the Defendant was a partner in the charged conspiracy, 

and the testimony was found to be improper expert testimony in 

the guise of lay testimony because the agent was testifying 

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based on his specialized training and experience. 

And then also U.S. v. Castillo was a case, 77 F.3d, 1480, 

Fifth Circuit 1996. In that case the Fifth Circuit said it is 

possible for a witness to be a summary expert and in that 

capacity to render an opinion about the underlying exhibits, 

but that in that case the witness was merely a summary witness 

and thus couldn't opine as to the underlying documents. 

And then finally in U.S. v. Brito, 136 F.3d, 397, Fifth 

Circuit 1998, the Court disapproved testimony that the 

Defendants met a certain drug organization profile. And this 

is actually a slightly different objection, Your Honor. In 

this case the detective opined about how difficult it was to 

infiltrate a particular organization and that, therefore, it 

was hard to get evidence about particular facts. And I would 

object to Government witnesses testifying that it is difficult 

to -- Similar kinds of testimony that it is difficult to 

obtain evidence from overseas and so forth. And in Brito the 

Court said it is -- that that leads to the conclusion or it 

implies that the Defendants should be convicted on a lower 

standard of proof, that the Government should have a lower 

burden of proof, and that an instruction as to burden of proof 

is proper. 

So I just wanted to put those into the record.

THE COURT: And assuming that those are timely, they 

are overruled. I don't know that you objected to all of that 

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at the time they were made. I have read some of those cases. 

They are clearly distinguishable from what we have going on 

here.

MS. CADEDDU: And I just want to make sure that we 

have a continuing objection on all those grounds.

THE COURT: Well, to the extent that they are 

talking about that, yes. If you have a specific objection, 

you need to make it. I am not going to give a continuing 

objection on broad grounds like that. You just need to object 

as to each particular one, because not all this testimony 

falls under this category.

MS. CADEDDU: I will make the appropriate objection. 

Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We will be in recess. Be back at 1:45.

(Lunch Recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

MR. JONAS: If we can put the Jenin zakat summary 

schedule back on the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, we had left off right before 

lunch with Fawaz Hamad, the first name on the left, but I want 

to go back to Mohamed Abu Zeid. There is something I forgot 

about. 

A. Okay.

Q. What number is he; what name, on this column or row?

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A. He is the fourth name.

Q. Just remind us, where did he we see him this morning when 

you testified about him?

A. He is the older gentleman in the tent video with the head 

dress who identified himself as the head of the Jenin zakat 

committee. He was also the individual who was referenced by 

Hamas leader Khalid Mishal at the MAYA conference as one of 

their people who had been deported. And he was also 

referenced in that UASR publication that was found in 

Abdulrahman Odeh's office that listed Hamas leaders, and he 

was one of them.

Q. Okay. Were there any videos of him, any additional 

videos of him that were seized by the FBI?

A. Yes. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play InfoCom Search No. 7, 

clip D, please.

(Whereupon, InfoCom Search No. 7, Clip D was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is this the same individual you have 

identified as being part of the Jenin zakat committee?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you been able to date this particular tape?

A. No.

Q. Agent Burns, it looked like the audio and his mouth was 

moving were not synced. Did the FBI do that? 

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A. No. The tape was as it was.

Q. Okay. Getting back to Fawaz Hamad, he is the individual 

that you said had two jobs--one for the HLF as their 

representative and one on the Jenin zakat committee. We were 

going over some things identifying him, connecting him to the 

committee, and we had gone over one document, InfoCom Search 

No. 30, which talked about the hospital and Islamists members, 

or Islamists. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the HLF receive anything indicating that he himself 

got into trouble with the law?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Baker Wiretap No. 19, 

please. The next page.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a fax in Arabic from the al-Razi Hospital in 

Jenin, which is the Jenin zakat committee's hospital, dated 

February 21st, 1998.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is this a translation of that fax?

A. It is.

Q. And who is this addressed to?

A. It is addressed to the brothers in the Holy Land 

Foundation.

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Q. This is marked as Baker Wiretap No. 19, so where was this 

sent to?

A. This would have been sent to Shukri Abu Baker. It may 

have been either at the HLF office or at home. I am not sure. 

I would have to check the phone number.

Q. Can you just read this document?

A. It says "Dear honorable and respectable brothers at the 

Holy Land Foundation, God's peace, mercy, and blessing be upon 

you. 

"We ask that you send the following papers concerning my 

husband Fawaz Abd'al-Rahman Hammad who is presently detained 

the Israel. 

"A certificate proving that Mr. Fawaz Abd'al'Rahman 

Hammad was working as an economic consultant for your projects 

with charitable legal organizations. 

"A copy of the Holy Land Foundation licensing." 

"A copy of the cancellation of the order to close down 

the Holy Land Foundation. 

"These papers were requested by the attorney defending my 

husband because it seems that the matter is related to his 

work with you. We hope that you take care of this and send 

them quickly. 

"May God reward you good. 

"Your sister, Sumaia Hammad, Fawaz Hammad's wife."

Q. After this letter was sent in February of 1998, are there 

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additional calls that are listed in your schedule that 

indicate that he continued to work for the HLF after this 

date?

A. Yes. After he got out of prison he went to work with the 

HLF.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Based on documents and phone calls.

Q. And are those documents and phone calls listed in the 

Jenin zakat committee schedule under his name as exhibits?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: I want to go to Ashqar Search No. 6 

specifically page 13, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is Ashqar Search No. 6, Agent Burns?

A. This is a list of names and phone numbers that was taken 

from the home of Abdel Haleem Ashqar in December of '93.

Q. And is Fawaz Hamad's name and phone number anywhere on 

this list?

A. It is.

Q. Where is that?

A. Well, it is down at the bottom, Fawaz Hamad.

Q. Have you looked at this phone list?

A. I have.

Q. Are there any other individuals on here that you already 

talked about?

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A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Well, individuals that have been mentioned are one 

Dr. Soliman just above Fawaz Hamad. He is the individual with 

the Islamic Relief Committee that we talked about the other 

day. And I believe another individual is Ahmad al-Alami, the 

Hamas leader in Iran. And Jawad Hamad we saw referenced in 

context of the Palestinian Committee overseas during my first 

testimony.

Q. I want to stay with this phone list for a moment, but I 

want to step away from the Jenin zakat committee and ask you a 

question regarding this exhibit. 

Are you familiar with someone named Steve McGonigle? 

A. Yes.

Q. Were you here when he testified in this trial?

A. No.

Q. Are you familiar with his testimony, though?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you familiar that he traveled over to -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor.

MR. JONAS: I am trying to lay a foundation to get 

to this document.

THE COURT: He can lay a foundation. He didn't get 

into what he said yet. Go ahead and ask this question.

MR. DRATEL: He prefaced by saying "It is his 

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testimony that" -- 

THE COURT: He hasn't gotten there yet, counsel. 

Let's see where he is going.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Are you aware Steve McGonigle traveled to 

Gaza to do a story on the Holy Land Foundation? 

MR. DRATEL: Objection as to hearsay.

THE COURT: She may answer yes or no.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Are you aware of an individual who met 

Mr. McGonigle to accompany him and set up interviews for him 

and act as a translator for him.

MR. DRATEL: Same objection, Your Honor?

MS. MORENO: Objection; hearsay and leading.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see that individual's name on -- 

Have you seen that individual's name in this exhibit?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If you can turn to page 11, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where is that name?

A. The second name on the list, Taher Shretah.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, as to this testimony I 

would also like to object under 701 and 702 specifically.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Have you seen Taher Shretah's name in any 

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other document seized by the FBI?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Elbarasse Search 

No. 24, page 3, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where do you see his name?

A. I see it here. If you go down the list the names of the 

individuals we have talked about above, and then Taher 

Shreiteh (Gaza). And if you could scroll up just a little 

bit, I would like to see the whole document.

MR. JONAS: Can you enlarge the top half? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see any other names of people that 

have been discussed in this case that you have testified 

about?

A. Yes. Jamal Mansour was one of the individuals on that 

list of the deportees where we saw the Hamas symbols flashing 

on and off. Dr. Soliman is with the Islamic Relief Agency. 

We have talked about -- Bassam Jarar is one of the individuals 

listed in that Middle East Affairs Journal as a Hamas leader, 

HLF Search No. 109. Mahmoud Romhi we will talk about later, 

as well as Hashem Natsheh. Dr. Aziz Dweik was also one of the 

individuals who was one of the deportees in that tent video 

where you saw the Hamas symbol flashing. He was also an HLF 

speaker. And then Mahmoud Zahar is Hamas leader in Gaza on 

your chart. 

And if you could expand out, you can see, again we have 

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Ahmad Bhar. We identified him as part of the Islamic Society 

of Gaza earlier today. He is one of the individuals that was 

identified in the faxes to Mohammad El-Mezain as being close 

to Hamas. Again, Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader on your chart 

listed in several exhibits we have presented today. And then 

skip down three or four names and you have Taher Shreiteh.

MR. JONAS: Go back to the Jenin zakat committee 

chart, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) The next name after Fawaz Hamad is Zeid 

Zakarneh. 

MR. JONAS: And if we can go to Baker Wiretap 

No. 13, page 3, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a fax to the HLF Jerusalem office, and it 

identifies the names of the representatives of the committees 

that they are dealing with, and the date of the document is 

January 25th, 1997.

Q. Okay. And do you see Zaid Zakarnah's name on that 

document?

A. I do. He is listed under Jenin zakat committee, with a 

telephone, fax number, and then the person in charge is noted 

to be Sheik Zaid Zakarnah.

Q. Okay. And there are other committees listed as well?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have this document listed under the individuals 

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who is identified on these committee charts that we are going 

to be speaking about shortly?

A. Yes. This document is referenced on a number of charts.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Let's go to Jenin Zakat Account No. 1, 

page 2. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is one of the exhibits you have 

listed under Zeid Zakarneh on your chart. 

MR. JONAS: Jenin Zakat Account No. 1. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see Zeid Zakarneh's name there?

A. He is listed as Zaid Mahmoud Ahmad there. It is part of 

his name.

Q. Okay. Do you see -- Is he a signatory on the account?

A. Yes.

Q. This is an account for the Jenin zakat committee, but do 

you know what bank this account is from?

A. Arab Bank.

Q. Do you know where the branch of Arab Bank was located 

that the Jenin zakat committee had an account?

A. It shows an address in Jenin, so it was in the West Bank 

of the Palestinian territories.

Q. Do you know if any of the zakat committees had bank 

accounts in any other countries besides the West Bank and 

Gaza?

A. I have seen some.

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Q. Where?

A. In the early years I know that Tulkarem, and one other of 

the zakat committees had an account in London for a little 

while.

Q. Okay. Let's go to the next name on the chart. Ahmed 

Salatna. Am I pronouncing it wrong? 

A. I pronounce it Salatna, but my pronunciation may not be 

any better than yours.

Q. Okay. Let's see what connects him to the committee. 

MR. JONAS: HLF Search No. 160, page 2, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. If you go back to the Arabic version, page 1, or the 

original it will be easier for me to explain it. 

This is a copy or a document that is very difficult to 

read. It has been a fax. But it is a fund transfer 

notification, and it shows for social dues to the Jenin zakat 

and an amount of money, what the money was supposedly allotted 

for, and the date. And then down below there is a space for a 

signature for the receipt. And as you can see on this 

receipt, there is only a signature in Arabic, so that is the 

portion that is translated on the following page. It is the 

signed portion of the receipt. So if you go to the 

translation on page 2 -- 

Q. Before we do that, where was this document taken from?

A. This was taken from the HLF office.

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Q. Whose wire transfer is it?

A. The HLF wire transfer.

Q. To?

A. To the Jenin zakat committee.

Q. Okay. So one top half is in English; the bottom half is 

in Arabic?

A. That is correct.

Q. Is the actual paper document easier to read than what is 

on the screen?

A. It is. But it is not great either, because it was faxed.

Q. Okay. And now we are on the translation page. And how 

do you connect this to Salatna?

A. He signs the receipt on behalf of the Jenin zakat 

committee as office director.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to the Jenin zakat 

schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) The next person is Adeeb Aboushi. Is 

that right?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: And looking at what connects him, if we 

can look at InfoCom Search No. 30, page 10. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this document?

A. This again is that letter to the Defendant Mohammad 

El-Mezain from Fawaz Hamad that identified the members of the 

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Jenin zakat committee and their hospital, and identified a lot 

of them as Islamists. 

Can you scroll up a little bit, please? 

Mr. Adib Abboushi is listed No. 3 under the hospital's 

board as an Islamist.

Q. Are there other names on the Jenin zakat committee that 

we haven't discussed that are also on this list?

A. There are. And if you -- Just as a reminder, when you 

are looking at the Jenin zakat committee chart if you want to 

see specifically what individuals appear there, you can go to 

page 3 of the chart and look under their name under InfoCom 

Search No. 30 and see if they appear there.

Q. While you have the chart in front of you, can you just 

tell us, so we don't have to keep going back to this document, 

who else on your chart is listed in this document?

A. Okay. I think we may have done this earlier, but No. 1 

Sheik Mohammad Fouad Abu Zeid, someone we have already spoken 

about, is on this chart; sheik Zeid Zakarneh is on this chart; 

Adib Aboushi; Walid Jarrar; and then if you scroll to the next 

page Fawaz Hammad and Ziyad Abdel Ghani, who is Ziyad Abdel 

Ghani Issa those people are on the Jenin zakat summary chart.

Q. I want to go now to the general committee section of this 

chart. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. We have read -- I am sorry. We have heard the portion 

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from the Philadelphia meeting from Muin Shabib talking about 

committees, but I want to go back to that. 

MR. JONAS: And if I could get the elmo. I am not 

going to play the whole portion again. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see what I highlighted?

A. I do.

Q. Agent Burns, this is from Philadelphia meeting No. 13. 

Could you just read the portion that I highlighted regarding 

the Jenin zakat committee?

A. Can you bring it out a little bit? 

"In Jenin, the zakat committee there has built a hospital 

which is really ours."

Q. Okay. If you -- I know I didn't highlight the rest of 

the sentence, but you might as well read the rest of the 

sentence?

A. "For the Islamists, either in management or in the teams 

working in it."

Q. Is this language "is ours" and talking about Islamists 

consistent with this other document that we looked at earlier, 

Ashqar Search No. 5?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Can we put Ashqar Search No. 5 on the 

screen, please?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Again, just give us -- The Philadelphia 

meeting was when?

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A. '93.

Q. And Ashqar Search No. 5 is?

A. '88, '89. This is very early on.

MR. JONAS: If you can scroll to the English page, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does this say about the Jenin zakat 

committee?

A. It says, "At this time"--which again is very early 

on--"it is the same as previous, which is two supporters are 

in it and the rest are dignitaries."

MR. JONAS: If we can go to Elbarasse Search No. 22, 

please, page 4. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I know we referenced this document 

earlier, but I want to go back because I want to ask you about 

the language we have seen connecting these -- discussing these 

committees. 

A. Okay.

Q. Is the language in this document similar to the Ashqar 

document we just looked at in the Philadelphia meeting that 

you just read with regard to it "being ours"?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you point out where that is?

A. Okay. This is from 1991, which is two to three years 

after that Ashqar document, and under No. 3 it says "Jenin 

zakat committee, guaranteed by virtue of Mr. Mohamed Fouad 

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Abou Zeid's position."

Q. Let's move to another committee. 

A. Okay.

Q. Ramallah zakat committee. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put up on the screen the 

schedule of payments to Ramallah zakat. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see that schedule?

A. I do.

Q. What is the date of the first payment to the Ramallah 

zakat committee?

A. September 23rd, 1991.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can scroll through this document, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Did the HLF continue making payments to 

the Ramallah zakat committee after Hamas was designated as a 

specially designated terrorist?

A. They did.

Q. Did they continue making payments to THE Ramallah zakat 

committee after Hamas was designated as a foreign terrorist 

organization?

A. Yes.

Q. And on those payments do you see any of the Defendants 

listed as authorizing the wires?

A. I do.

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Q. Who?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker and Ghassan Elashi.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the next page. Keep 

scrolling to the last one. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the date of the last transaction 

between the Holy Land Foundation and the Ramallah zakat 

committee?

A. October 11th, 2001.

Q. And how much total did the HLF give the Ramallah zakat?

A. We were able to track $494,252.

Q. Okay. There are a couple of footnotes on this schedule. 

Do you know what those are about?

A. They would be referencing -- If you see an asterisk and 

it says "See payment to Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron," 

that would indicate that that transaction likely came through 

the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron. I would have to 

look at the specific example to tell you for certain that that 

is what happened, but those comments explain the transaction.

Q. Did you see on occasion where a transaction went to one 

zakat committee and then based upon internal records it was 

meant for another?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that common?

A. I saw it more than once.

Q. Okay. 

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MR. JONAS: If we can go to the schedule of the 

Ramallah zakat committee summary.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, we see seven names on this 

schedule. Can you tell us who these people are? Who are the 

names?

A. Mahmud Rumahi, Hosni Abu Awad, Omar Hamdan, Mahmoud 

Mosleh, Darwish Zein, Hamza Deeb, and Fadel Hamdan.

Q. Okay. I want to start with Mahmud Rumahi, the first name 

on the left. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to HLF Search No. 152, page 

3, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this document?

A. This is the second page of a translation of a letter from 

Mahmoud Romhi to the HLF.

Q. Does this connect him to the Ramallah zakat committee?

A. It does.

Q. How so?

A. In this particular letter he is signing as the Ramallah 

zakat hospital's general director, but there are other 

documents that you will see where he actually signs as a 

representative of the committee as well.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Let's turn to InfoCom Search No. 32, 

page 10, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

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A. This is a letter from Shukri Abu Baker at the HLF to 

Mahmud Romhi as the chairman of the Ramallah zakat committee.

Q. Have we seen Mahmud Rumahi's name in anything else that 

you have previously discussed?

A. We have seen his name and also seen references to him in 

the Philadelphia meeting.

Q. What did they say in the Philadelphia meeting? And if 

you want the transcript, maybe that will be easier. 

A. It is up to you. I can tell you generally what they 

said. When they were talking about the area of Ramallah, they 

mentioned that the head of the syndicate there was -- 

Q. I am sorry. Would this be in the section that has been 

played regarding the committees?

A. Yes.

Q. This would be Philadelphia Meeting No. 13?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. 

A. They are discussing the head of their syndicate there and 

saying that he was arrested and under investigation and it was 

causing problems for them. They referred to him as being a 

doctor who started the hospital, and that is Doctor Mahmud 

Rumahi, this individual.

Q. Okay. The next person on the list is Hosni Abu Awad. 

MR. JONAS: Let's look at the Ramallah Zakat Account 

No. 1, page 34. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a document that indicates the members of the 

Ramallah zakat committee.

Q. This is from their bank account?

A. It is.

Q. Does it identify Hosni Abu Awad?

A. It does. It lists him here as Hasan, but if you go on 

further through the bank account records you see where he is 

referenced as Hosni Hasan Abu Awad.

Q. Okay. Before I do that, there are other names on this 

document. Is there anyone else who is listed on this document 

that is also on your schedule?

A. Yes. No. 2 Darwish Zein is on the list.

Q. Okay. 

A. I believe he is the only one from this particular list.

Q. Okay. Now just so we are clear on something, No. 8, do 

you see that name?

A. I do.

Q. Is that the same Mahmoud Zahar that you have testified 

about previously?

A. No. He resides in Gaza. This is in the West Bank in 

Ramallah.

MR. JONAS: Let's turn to page 36 of this exhibit, 

Ramallah Zakat Account No. 1.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

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A. These again are records from the Ramallah zakat bank 

account.

Q. Does this identify the same individuals or some of the 

same individuals that are on the schedule?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

A. Darwish Zein. And again, these translations are done 

phonetically so there are variations in the spelling. No. 3 

is Husni Abu Awad.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to another exhibit, InfoCom 

Search No. 32, page 26, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a letter from Ramallah. I am trying to see who 

it is -- It is addressed to Dr. Hosni Abu Awad, the man that 

we have been talking, about as chairman of the 

Ramallah/Al-Bireh zakat committee, and it says, "I am pleased 

to inform you of the approval of the director of the zakat 

fund to reform the Ramallah/Al-Bireh zakat committee as 

follows." And it lists the individuals who are members. And 

this is from 1989.

Q. And this was taken from where?

A. This was taken from InfoCom.

Q. Does that list have other people who are on your 

schedule?

A. It does.

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Q. All right. By the way, the bank account we looked at a 

moment ago, do you remember what time period these records are 

for?

A. I believe those were from '89 as well.

Q. Those bank records?

A. To state, the ones we looked at were from '89, but if you 

scroll through that bank account, you will see records as they 

progressed in time, so they are not just limited to 1989. You 

can see records that go on beyond that time period.

Q. Let me ask you a general statement. In the records that 

you have compiled that support your schedules, is there 

anything to indicate that any of these individuals left the 

committee?

A. No. And in a lot of the individuals I found documents, 

like in this one, where they appear in 1989, and then you will 

see another document referencing the individual in the year 

2000, over a decade later. And I found nothing on the 

individuals listed on here that indicated they left the 

committee, with a small exception of a couple of individuals 

who have died.

Q. I guess that means they left the committee. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So I haven't really focused on with you the time 

period, but would you say -- I mean, can you tell us whether 

or not, just so we are clear, that these records focus on a 

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particular sliver of time, or are they covering multiple years 

period?

A. What we tried to do when putting this picture together 

was to take the picture in general from the HLF's beginning to 

end, so that a lot of the evidence will come from the 

beginning to show with whom they were dealing in the beginning 

when we have all these videotapes of these festivals that we 

have shown, and to show that those same individuals were the 

people they were dealing with much later on after the Hamas 

designation and until they closed down.

Q. And the exhibits that we have shown with regard to 

particular individuals, have they been all the exhibits or 

just a sample?

A. They are a sample.

Q. Okay. Let's move on to Omar Hamdan. I think he is the 

next name on the list?

A. Yes.

Q. Is he also on this schedule, before we go away from this?

A. He is listed as the treasurer, No. 3.

MR. JONAS: And if we can go to the Ramallah Zakat 

Account No. 1, page 10, please. 

THE WITNESS: I don't think that is the Ramallah 

zakat account.

MR. JONAS: No, Ramallah Zakat Account No. 1. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

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A. This is part of the Ramallah zakat bank records. This 

also is dated -- It lists the account date opening for 1989, 

and it shows that one of the signatures on the account, 

authorized signatures is Omar Muhammad Ahmad Hamdan, who is 

the individual listed on this chart.

Q. The next person on the chart is a person Mahmoud Mosleh, 

M-O-S-L-E-H. 

A. Yes.

Q. Is there a videotape involving him?

A. There are several.

Q. All right. 

MR. JONAS: Elbarasse Search No. 23. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does he appear in that?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Elbarasse Search No. 23.

(Whereupon, Elbarasse Search No. 23 was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that the individual Mahmoud Mosleh 

that is listed on your Ramallah zakat schedule?

A. It is.

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, can we approach for just a 

moment?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

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MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, I think in our written 

objections one thing we didn't raise with this video is it is 

video of people being interrogated or detained in prison, so 

we have a Crawford objection that their statements are clearly 

testimonial. We objected on hearsay grounds but did not raise 

the Crawford objection, so I just wanted to lodge that 

objection now. 

MR. JONAS: I think they are being interviewed. I 

don't think it is interrogation, because I think this was 

seized at Elbarasse's house. And it appears to be a TV 

interview, or some sort of interview, not an interrogation.

MS. DUNCAN: They are identified as being detained 

in Israeli prisons. Is that right? 

MR. JONAS: That is how it starts. I made my point. 

I will stop the video, but we still think it is admissible. 

It identifies him as who he is. I don't need -- 

THE COURT: All of it, or just this part? You are 

saying it is admissible.

MR. JONAS: I think the whole thing is admissible, 

yes. 

THE COURT: I haven't seen it. I would have to take 

a look at it.

MR. JONAS: I made the point. I wanted to show who 

he was, so I don't need to play anymore.

THE COURT: All right. He is not going to play the 

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rest of it.

MS. DUNCAN: Is it not coming in? 

THE COURT: We will have to deal with it later. He 

says it is admissible, you don't want it, so I will have to 

look at it. I haven't listened to this yet.

MS. HOLLANDER: So we can put off whether it is 

coming in or not? 

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. HOLLANDER: Is there another one like this.

MR. DRATEL: I think there is another one.

THE COURT: A disagreement again. 

MR. DRATEL: Is that the only one? 

MR. JONAS: Of him.

MS. DUNCAN: There was another? 

THE COURT: On at a time. This is on the record, 

guys.

MR. JONAS: You need to be a little more clear. Are 

there other TV interviews of people, or other interviews of 

people in prison? 

MR. DRATEL: Prison.

MR. JONAS: Not that I am aware of.

MS. DUNCAN: I think you may be thinking of is it is 

an actual document that you said you are not going to use, one 

of the Ashqar -- 

MR. DRATEL: I just thought there were two of those 

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interviews, but maybe I was mistaken.

MR. JONAS: I am not aware of that. 

MR. DRATEL: Okay. 

THE COURT: All right. For now. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I just want to be clear. In 

that videotape, it identified the individual who is on the 

Ramallah zakat committee schedule?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to HLF Search No. 106, page 5. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Again we are staying on Mahmoud Mosleh. 

What is this document?

A. This is part of a journal that was taken from the Holy 

Land Foundation, and this is an article that was contained in 

it that says "Communique from Islamic Resistance Movement, 

Hamas, in Palestine, August 17th, 1998."

MR. JONAS: If we can go to page 10 of this 

document. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does this identify Mahmoud Mosleh 

anywhere?

A. It does.

Q. Where is that?

A. It says -- It is discussing -- If you go from the top it 

talks about the process of arresting Palestinians in mass has 

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never ended. It is referring to the PA has adopted the 

techniques of the Israeli security forces, arresting hundreds 

of innocent people. So it is talking about the Palestinian 

Authority arrests. 

And then it goes down in the third paragraph and says, 

"Arresting Palestinian mothers, wives, and fathers of wanted 

Palestinians by the intelligence agencies has not stopped. 

Police harassment against suspects of resistance went beyond 

the common person on the street all the way to the political 

leaders, such as Abdulaziz Ranteesy, Ibraheeem Maqadmeh, 

Mahmoud Mosleh, and Jamal Mansour.

Q. Have we seen Jamal Mansour anywhere else already?

A. Yes, he was also in that deportee video in the tent, and 

he is a member of the Islamic Relief Committee as he 

identified himself.

Q. Okay. Let's move on to the next person on the schedule, 

Darwish Zein. I may be completely mispronouncing that one. 

A. Yes.

Q. Am I mispronouncing it, or is that right?

A. No, I know who you are talking about.

Q. Is he connected to the Ramallah zakat committee?

A. He is.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to InfoCom Search No. 32 

page 26, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is he listed there?

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A. Yes.

Q. Where is he what number?

A. No. 6. And again, these names are, the translations are 

phonetic, and so sometimes you will see different spellings 

that sound the same way. So Zayn, Z-A-Y-N. 

Q. The next person is Hamza Deeb. Is he also listed on this 

particular document, InfoCom Search No. 32? 

A. Yes, No. 2.

Q. The next person after that is Fadel Hamdan. Same 

question. Is he listed?

A. Yes, No. 12.

Q. Okay. Why don't we go to the general committee section 

for this particular committee, the Ramallah zakat committee. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go first to Baker Wiretap 

No. 13. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I know we covered this document, but how 

does this document relate to the Ramallah zakat committee?

A. It just indicates that the HLF's representative for the 

Ramallah zakat is Abu Tareq, but I don't know who he is so 

that is why this document is referenced under the general 

committee to show that they were dealing with them, but not 

under an individual because I can't say who Abu Tareq is.

Q. You said the HLF representative to the Ramallah zakat 

committee?

A. The Ramallah zakat committee's representative with whom 

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the HLF is dealing.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to Elbarasse Search No. 22, 

please, page 4. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I know we have gone to this document a 

few times, but because you list so many committees I want to 

go back to it again. 

With regard to Ramallah zakat committee, what does it 

say.

A. It says, "All of it is ours."

Q. And by the way, one thing I didn't ask you. Who is this 

addressed to?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Did they discuss the Ramallah zakat committee in the 

Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If I can have the elmo, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I will try to move this 

without making you nauseous. If you can just read what I 

highlighted. 

A. Okay. It says, "The Ramallah region really has some 

noticeable activity for our organizations, and particularly 

the activity of the zakat committee. We could say that the 

zakat committee is ours, including its management and 

officers."

Q. Okay. I just want to make sure I am clear. I am told 

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the whole thing might not have been on the screen. Just read 

that last line again. 

A. "Ramallah zakat committee is ours, including its 

management and officers."

Q. Okay. Is that language consistent with Elbarasse Search 

No. 22, the document from a couple of years earlier regarding 

the Ramallah zakat committee that we just put on the screen a 

moment ago?

A. Yes. That is what they said in 1991 and in 1993.

Q. Okay. I want to move now to the Islamic Charitable 

Society of Hebron. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put the schedule Payments to 

ICS Hebron. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And is ICS Hebron sort of a nickname or a 

shortened name of Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron?

A. It is an easier way so you don't have to say the Islamic 

charity society of Hebron every time.

Q. So if I refer to it as ICS Hebron, you will know what I 

am talking about?

A. I will.

Q. With regard to the payments made from the Holy Land 

Foundation to ICS Hebron, when was the first payment? 

A. May 1st, 1991.

Q. Did the Holy Land Foundation continue making payments to 

ICS Hebron after Hamas was first designated by the United 

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States?

A. Yes.

Q. Did it continue making payments after Hamas was 

designated as a foreign terrorist organization?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was authorizing those payments?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker and also Ghassan Elashi.

Q. When is the last payment between the Holy Land Foundation 

and ICS Hebron?

A. November 1st, 2001.

Q. And how much did the Holy Land Foundation pay in total to 

the ICS Hebron?

A. We were able to track $1,674,594.

Q. Okay. If we can just look at the last transaction dated 

November 1st. It says HLF Foreign Account No. 5, page 137, if 

I am reading that right. 

MR. JONAS: Can you pull that up? HLF Foreign 

Account No. 5, page 137. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, this part is in Arabic?

A. It is.

MR. JONAS: Can you scroll to the next page and look 

for the English? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is this the transaction that you just 

referred to, the last transaction on that schedule?

A. That is correct.

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Q. Who is this from?

A. It is from the HLF's foreign bank account to the Islamic 

Charity Society in Hebron.

Q. On the payment schedule to ICS Hebron, for this 

transaction this is the only document. Were you able to find 

anything else supporting this transaction besides this foreign 

bank account record?

A. No. And just to be clear, because we have had several 

instances like this, in the domestic bank records I did not 

find anything to indicate anything else about this 

transaction. I and a team of IRS agents looked through the 

search warrant material and did not locate documentation 

surrounding this transaction. A lot of their paperwork, it 

was very voluminous and quite confusing, but this is what we 

found.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the ICS Hebron Summary 

Schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) We have a lot of names on this schedule, 

Agent Burns -- 

A. Yes.

Q. -- connecting to ICS Hebron. We will try to go through 

them one at a time, but I am assuming there is a lot of the 

same documentation covering multiple names. 

A. Yes; a lot of the documents we have already talked about 

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and the videos.

Q. Okay. So we may be able to go through this at a fairly 

quick pace. Starting with the first one Abdel Khaleq Natshe, 

let's look at what you have listed connecting him to the 

committee. 

MR. JONAS: Starting with InfoCom Search No. 51, 

page 11. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is that 1991 report from the Defendant Shukri Abu 

Baker regarding his tip trip to the Palestinian territories in 

1991.

Q. And does he identify who he met?

A. Yes. He says, "In the Hebron area," which is what we are 

discussing, "I visited the Islamic Charitable Society and met 

those in charge in it, including Mr. 'Abd'al'Khaliq al-Natshah 

and Kamal al-Tamimi."

Q. Okay. Abdel Khaleq Natshe is the first name I asked you. 

Is Kamal al-Tamimi also on the list?

A. Yes. He is No. 4 on the summary chart.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to InfoCom search 89, page 12, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is the second page of a translation of an Arabic 

project report.

Q. Is this somehow -- How do you connect this to Abdel 

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Khaleq Natshe?

A. The project report is signed at the bottom by a Abdel 

Khaliq al-Natsheh, the committee's secretary.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to Marzook Phonebook, page 

45. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What to you see there related to this 

particular schedule?

A. The last name on this page is this individual Abdel 

Khaleq al-Natsheh with his phone number.

MR. JONAS: And let's go to InfoCom Search No. 25, 

page 111. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you remind us what InfoCom Search 

No. 25 is?

A. This is the list of the deportees taken from InfoCom, 

which was the business of the Defendant Ghassan Elashi. And 

so in this list we have the names of the deportees. And 

specifically, the first one on this page is this individual 

'Abd'al'Khaliq Natshah. And just to be clear, these 

individuals generally have four to five names, so you may have 

to look -- In this instance he is referred to as 

'Abd-al-Khaliq Hasan Shathili al'Natshah, although I probably 

pronounced that wrong, but we are using Abdel Khaleq Natshe. 

It is an easier way to write it. 

MR. JONAS: I want to go back to Elbarasse Search 

No. 22, if we can pull that up. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is his name mentioned anywhere in this 

document? 

MR. JONAS: Going to page 5, please.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can enlarge the middle section.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, this is a page of the 

document I don't think you have referred to yet, and as a 

separate category that says "to the charitable organizations." 

Does this divide up to the zakat committee and charitable 

organizations?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the first one underneath "charitable 

organizations"?

A. Again, this is the letter to Shukri from 1991, just 

because it looks different on this page, under charitable 

organizations the first one listed the Islamic Charity 

Society, Hebron. "All of it is ours it has Adnan, Abdel 

Khalik Al Natshe, and Hashm El Natshe, our people."

Q. Is Hashem El Natshe on your schedule?

A. Yes, and so is Adna, both of them.

Q. Do you know if they are related?

A. I believe that they are, but I don't know if they are 

cousins or what. From the same general family, but it is a 

large family.

Q. Okay.

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A. But Adnan is Adnan Masouwda. So Abdul Khaleq Natshe is 

No. 1 on the summary chart. Hashm Natshe is No. 2 on the 

summary chart. And Adnan Masouwda is No. 5 on the summary 

chart.

Q. Let's talk about Hashem. Besides this document 

connecting him to the committee -- 

MR. JONAS: Let's go to InfoCom Search No. 28, page 

87. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This was that list taken from InfoCom, which again was 

the business of Ghassan Elashi, that list of all the 

committees with their members and bank information, things 

like that. And this is the second page of the list on Islamic 

Charitable Society of Hebron.

Q. Who does it list here that is on your schedule?

A. It lists No. 2, that is Hashem Sadek Abdel Nabi Al 

Natasheh, which is No. 2 on the chart, Hashem Natshe, just a 

shortened version of his name.

Q. And can you tell us their role in the committee if it is 

listed?

A. Yes. Here it is vice president. And then Saleh Salem 

Abdel Nabi Natsheh is listed as treasurer. He is listed as 

No. 7 on the summary chart. No. 5 on the list -- on the 

InfoCom list is Adnan Abdel Hafiz Masouda, house director. 

And he is No. 5. He was also one of the people referenced as 

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"our people" in that letter to Shukri. And then No. 8 is Mr. 

Mohamed Eid Misk, and he is No. 3 on the summary chart.

Q. Okay. And so we are clear, we have nine people listed in 

this document but not everyone you have named is on your 

summary chart. How come you didn't name everybody in this 

document on your summary chart?

A. Because there were a number of people with whom the HLF 

dealt or whose names appeared in multiple sources of the 

evidence. Those are the people that we focused on. And as 

you can see, there were a number of them. The other people in 

comparison just did not appear that frequently.

Q. Okay. Staying with Hashem Natshe -- 

MR. JONAS: And if we can pull up the ICS Hebron 

Account No. 1, the bank account, page 43, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see that on the 

screen?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. Are you able to make it out?

A. No.

MR. JONAS: Next page, please. And a translation of 

that document. 

THE WITNESS: That looks like a travel document or 

an identification document. It gives an I.D. number, and then 

it shows the person's name, which is -- The first name is 

Hashim under personal name. Father's name would be Sadiq. 

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Family name last name Al-Nitshah. It is just a variation 

phonetically in the spelling.

Q. So does this document connect Hashem Natshe to the IC 

Hebron bank account?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to Baker Wiretap No. 15. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a fax received on April 18th, 1999 regarding the 

HLF library in Hebron.

Q. The HLF library?

A. Well, it was a library funded by the HLF in Hebron 

through the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron.

Q. How do you connect -- I am sorry. Say that again. It 

was funded through?

A. The Islamic Charitable Society.

Q. Does this document referencing that?

A. Yes.

Q. Does this document identify any of the people on your 

chart?

A. It does.

Q. Who?

A. Hashem Natshe is identified in this document as well as 

Mohammed Eid Misk. I believe the second page here he is 

listed Hashem Natshe as the -- listed as the chairman of the 

chamber of commerce, but if you go to the next page it has him 

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listed as the president of the Society, the Islamic Charitable 

Society. And scrolling on he is referenced again. Keep 

scrolling. 

And then it identifies in the last sentence that the 

appointed educator at the library as the library director 

would be Eid Misk, who is Mohamed Eid Misk, who is No. 3 on 

this chart.

Q. Does this reference the opening of the library?

A. It does.

Q. I thought I saw the name the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker 

in there. 

A. Yes.

Q. What was his connection for this document?

A. He delivered a speech over the telephone at the opening 

of the HLF -- or of the library in Hebron.

Q. Did you see any videotapes of the opening of the library?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did that tape come from?

A. InfoCom.

Q. How many copies of the tape did the FBI come across?

A. Two.

Q. Is there anything else on the tape besides the opening of 

the library?

A. Yes.

Q. What?

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MS. MORENO: Your Honor, may we approach, please?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the presence and 

hearing of the jury.)

MS. MORENO: I need to be excused. The problem is I 

can't leave my client unrepresented, so I would ask the Court 

to take an early break now, but I really have got to go. 

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. MORENO: Sorry.

THE COURT: Go ahead and go, and then we need to 

discuss an issue anyway on this question. Are you planning on 

going over every one of these charts and everybody's names? 

MR. JONAS: I am hoping I can speed it along as I 

move along.

THE COURT: I don't see the point in going over 

every name. You have covered six charts and you have six left 

and over 20 names, and I don't see the point of that. I mean, 

I think you are entitled to get into amounts, things that show 

control. I mean, I think you have made your point, but I 

don't see the point of every name. They are in evidence -- I 

will give you a chance in a minute. They are in evidence, and 

you have got the document. You have made your point where the 

jury can go and find -- Go ahead.

MR. JONAS: The comment Your Honor just made, you 

made your point actually is a good one, because speaking to my 

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colleagues, there is a difference of opinion as to when I made 

my point.

THE COURT: You made it.

MR. JONAS: I am very mindful of boring this jury. 

There are -- Part of what I am doing, though, is laying the 

foundation for a witness later on, for Avi. But I will 

absolutely move faster. There are some points where I need to 

stop because it is not the same thing.

THE COURT: Yes. And I will let you use your own 

judgment as to what you need to get in. And I know you 

probably want to cover some for each committee, but we just 

don't need to go over every name for every committee. There 

is 20 plus left. That is too much time. We don't need to do 

that.

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. I fully appreciate that.

THE COURT: Find some way -- 

MR. JONAS: I will absolutely do that. 

THE COURT: Okay. All right. 

Anything else while we are up here? 

MR. JONAS: If I can raise something, since we are 

up here? 

THE COURT: Let me let the jury go. 

Members of the jury, we are going to take our afternoon 

break. Be back at ten after. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

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MR. JONAS: I mentioned this to Jennifer before we 

started up this afternoon, and Ms. Duncan, there were to two 

mistakes on my list, the courtesy list. One Ashqar -- 

THE COURT: For this witness? 

MR. JONAS: For this witness. Ashqar Search No. 7, 

that was objected to. I realize it is supposed to be Ashqar 

Wiretap No. 7 instead of Search No. 7. 

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. JONAS: The other one is HLF Search No. 102 

wasn't on my list. That was inadvertently left off. It is on 

Agent Burns' schedule. In fact, I did pull up a document from 

there already. I don't know if the Defense wants to raise 

additional objections besides the ones that currently covered.

MS. DUNCAN: As to HLF Search No. 102, we don't have 

additional objections. I haven't looked at Ashqar Wiretap No. 

7. I haven't looked at that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Take a look at that one. And then what 

is the other one? 

MR. JONAS: HLF Search No. 102, which I believe is 

written down right there. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I have one other thing.

THE COURT: You don't have any additional 

objections? 

MS. DUNCAN: No. And I will look at Ashqar Search 

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No. 7.

THE COURT: You have the general objections on 

those. Those are overruled, and HLF Search No. 102 is 

admitted, then. 

MR. JONAS: I apologize, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: That is all right. We have all made 

mistakes at this trial. 

It is something we have to deal with? 

MS. HOLLANDER: This video they are about to play is 

one we talked about this morning that shows the American flag 

being stomped on.

THE COURT: Burned and -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: We would like Your Honor to look at 

it so that you can make a ruling on whether you think under 

403 whether it should come in.

THE COURT: I made that ruling. You described it 

and you described it in your motions, and it was found there 

at the HLF premises, so I have already made my ruling on that. 

It is within the HLF material at InfoCom. 

And one other thing, and this is on the summary witness. 

I think one question that you are asking is improper when you 

are asking her is consistent with this. That is more into 

argument. 

You can certainly direct her to where you find the names 

and documents, because there are so many documents. I think 

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that is helpful to the jury. But once you start saying, "Is 

this consistent with this," you are really getting into 

argument and she becomes a summary argument witness, and is 

what the Court has spoken against. 

MR. JONAS: I will make sure I don't do it again.

THE COURT: Avoid that.

(Brief recess.)

THE COURT: I understand we need a bench conference.

MS. CADEDDU: Yes.

(The following was had at the bench.) 

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I think at the end of the 

bench conference before you indicated that you believe that 

the questions that Mr. Jonas was propounding to Agent Burns 

about whether something was consistent with something else 

were improper, and so we would ask the Court to strike those 

questions and answers, and to instruct the jury to disregard 

those as being improper.

THE COURT: Okay. And I will deny that request. I 

don't remember how many of them there were. I remember one at 

the end, and I don't even remember what it was about, so I 

will deny that request. 

MS. DUNCAN: I had said I would look at Ashqar 

Wiretap No. 7, and we would state our standard objections as 

to hearsay.

THE COURT: What is that? 

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MR. JONAS: Honestly I have to look. I am sorry.

THE COURT: Do you remember? 

MS. DUNCAN: I looked at it very, very quickly. It 

is call between Jamil Hamami and Ashqar, I think.

MR. JONAS: It is on the Islamic Science and Culture 

schedule, part of connecting Jamil Hamami to everything we 

have been connecting him along with, the Islamic Science and 

Culture Committee to Hamas. It is all in the same vain.

MS. HOLLANDER: Which reminds me, there are also 

some Hamami 302s you are looking at.

THE COURT: Right.

MS. HOLLANDER: We will need those before cross, 

particularly to see if he said anything about HLF and its 

relationship to Hamas. 

THE COURT: Before cross on this witness? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Yes.

THE COURT: How much longer do you anticipate on 

this witness? 

MR. JONAS: I think I will take to the end of the 

day. If I can ask Ms. Moreno a question on that. You had 

asked me about objecting if we break an hour early.

MS. MORENO: However the Court can accommodate me. 

I am trying really hard, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's see if we can make it until about 

4:30 or so. I would like to work at least an hour. That will 

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give us a little over an hour.

MR. JONAS: I am not going to pass her today.

MS. HOLLANDER: You aren't anyway? 

MR. JONAS: Because we are breaking early, and even 

speeding things up I don't think I will pass her today, but I 

think it will be sometime mid morning. So that we are not 

using a chit, at the request of the Defense they ask that we 

put Robert McBrien from OFAC on tomorrow, because Mr. Cline is 

only going to be here tomorrow and he is going to be the one 

to cross him. So tomorrow we will have to stop Agent Burns 

and put Mr. McBrien on.

MS. HOLLANDER: That is one for us.

MS. CADEDDU: There is a chit list? 

MR. JONAS: You guys let us know whenever you want 

to put him on. 

MS. CADEDDU: Can we talk to John about that?

MR. JONAS: Sure.

MS. DUNCAN: Do you guys have a sense of how long he 

will be on direct? 

MR. JONAS: Not long. It is Betsy's witness. Maybe 

half an hour, 45 minutes.

MS. HOLLANDER: As long as we can finish him 

tomorrow.

MR. JONAS: So we might want to wait until later in 

the day. Whatever you want to do.

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MS. DUNCAN: We will talk to John. 

(The following was had in open court.) 

THE COURT: Go ahead and bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I was asking you about a 

videotape. There are two copies of the tape found at InfoCom?

A. Yes.

Q. This pertains to the opening of the library at Hebron?

A. Yes.

Q. That the HLF supported?

A. Yes.

Q. Besides opening of the library, is there something else 

on the tape?

A. Yes.

Q. Before you play the tape, can you briefly describe what 

it is?

A. Yes. Prior to the opening of the Hebron library, there 

are clips from a demonstration on the videotape. They were on 

there as it was -- I mean, that is the way we seized it.

Q. Is it one demonstration, or does it appear to be multiple 

demonstrations?

A. I wasn't there so I can't say that it wasn't different 

parts of one demonstration, but there are several clips of 

different crowds demonstrating.

Q. Is it the same -- Are these demonstrations on both copies 

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of the tape that was found by the FBI?

A. Yes. The tapes were identical.

Q. Was there a note on one of the tapes?

A. There was.

Q. What was that note? What did it say?

A. The note was a handwritten note, and it said something to 

the effect of, "Please make me two copies of this tape. There 

is a demonstration at the beginning. I don't want it."

Q. Was that note in English or Arabic?

A. I am not sure. A translator brought it to my attention, 

so I don't know if I saw a translation or if I saw what was 

written on a note.

Q. Okay. And then just so I am clear, it goes from the 

demonstrations on the videotape into the opening of the Hebron 

library?

A. That is correct.

Q. Are we seeing the whole tape this morning, or this 

afternoon?

A. No. We are seeing clips of the demonstrations that 

preceded the opening of the library, and then a small clip 

from the opening of the library.

Q. Okay. And again, so we are clear, you are saying 

demonstrations that preceded the demonstration of the opening 

of the library. 

A. On the tape.

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Q. Do you know if those demonstrations actually occurred in 

the front of the library?

A. I don't know.

Q. Or the time the library was opened?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did the FBI alter this tape in any way?

A. No, other than to put the translations on it so we can 

see what is being said.

Q. And on the part of the library portion, do we see any of 

the ICS Hebron representatives that are in your chart?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play InfoCom Search No. 68, 

please.

(Whereupon, InfoCom Search No. 68 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see the headbands 

around these individuals?

A. Yes.

Q. Have we seen those same headbands before in other videos?

A. Yes.

Q. Those green headbands that they are wearing that you said 

we have seen earlier, in what context were the people wearing 

it where we have seen it earlier? 

A. To symbolize Hamas.

Q. Agent Burns, the individual on the left is wearing a red 

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headband. Do you know if that is a Hamas headband? I know it 

is off the screen now. Were you able to see if that is a 

Hamas headband, or is Hamas' color red? 

A. Hamas' color is green.

Q. Do you know if there were any other parties whose colors 

are red?

A. I can't see the headband well enough to describe it, so I 

wouldn't want to discuss that.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, do you see the way it jumped 

sometimes, kind of spliced out and spliced in?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the FBI do that?

A. No. On the original tape it did like that. And that is 

what I was saying. I couldn't tell if it was from different 

clips of the same protest or different protests themselves.

Then the last -- In the last clip at the end you could 

see them holding a photograph in the background, and that was 

of the bombmaker Yehia Ayyash.

Q. Is the individual, the name on the screen, Hashim 

al-Natshe, is his name on the list?

A. Yes, Hashim Natshe, the second on the Islamic Charitable 

Society chart. 

MR. JONAS: If we can get back to the chart the 

Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron summary. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, there are two names on here 

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Mohamed Eid Misk and Kamal Al Tamimi. Did these two 

individuals have two jobs?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you explain that?

A. Yes. Kamal Al Tamimi also was the HLF's representative 

in the Hebron area, and Mohamed Eid Misk was the administrator 

of the library, and he was on the HLF's payroll.

Q. And is that information coming from documents that are 

referenced on this list?

A. Yes.

Q. We discussed an InfoCom Search No. 25 exhibit. What was 

that again?

A. That was the list of deportees taken from InfoCom, the 

business of the Defendant Ghassan Elashi.

Q. Was Kamal Tamimi's name on that list?

A. Yes.

Q. There is a bunch of names on here, and I am going to jump 

to the general committee section. Just so we are clear, the 

people whose names are on here, if we turn to page 3 of the 

chart, in looking at your chart if someone just went to those 

exhibits listed under their names would they find connections 

between these individuals and the committee and HLF, or Hamas 

if applicable?

A. Yes. Considering we were just discussing a very few of 

these, one would, to see a better picture, would go to and see 

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all the exhibits referenced under these individuals and look 

at those exhibits to get a broader picture than just the 

highlights that we are looking at today.

Q. Okay. 

A. Excuse me. As well, not to forget to look at the 

financial schedule and the underlying exhibits for the 

financial schedules, because those underlying exhibits tend to 

relate to the committee and these individuals as well.

Q. Okay. Have which seen any of these people on the tent 

video?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Azzam Halsab, the eighth person on the chart.

Q. Okay. And is there -- 

MR. JONAS: Elbarasse Search No. 22 which lists out 

the committees, if we can pull that up real quick. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is there anyone on this Islamic 

Charitable Society of Hebron committee listed?

A. On this letter to Shukri, page five, the next page, if 

you look under Young Men Muslim Association, No. 5, which is 

affiliated with the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron -- 

Excuse me. No. 3. The Young Men's Muslim Association which 

is affiliated with the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron, 

it identifies "brother Talal Sadr as one of our people," and 

he is the last person on this Islamic Charitable Society of 

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Hebron chart.

Q. The connection between the Young Men's Muslim Association 

and the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron, is that 

connection contained within the documents that support this 

chart?

A. Yes. You can see it on some exhibits that are referenced 

specifically in here. Money was sent to the Young Muslim 

Association through the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron 

on several occasions.

Q. Okay. And what does it say about the Islamic Charitable 

Society of Hebron on this document?

A. "All of it is ours. It has Abdel Khalik Al Natshe and 

Hashem Al Natshe, our people."

Q. Do they discuss the ICS Hebron committee in Philadelphia?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If I can get the elmo real quick. 

Philly Meeting No. 13. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, if you can read what I 

highlighted. 

A. "In Hebron, Hebron is a city, is a place where we 

consider that we have a good presence and weight as Islamic 

organizations such as the Islamic Charitable Society."

Q. Okay. Let's move to the next committee. Nablus zakat 

committee. 

A. Okay.

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Q. And it is called Payments to the Nablus zakat committee 

chart. Okay. Agent Burns what chart is this?

A. I am sorry? 

Q. What chart is this on the screen now?

A. Payments to the Nablus zakat committee.

Q. When was the first payment made to the Nablus zakat 

committee made by the HLF?

A. May 1st, 1991. 

Q. Did the HLF continue to make payments to the Nablus zakat 

committee after Hamas was designated as the terrorist 

organization?

A. Yes.

Q. And it goes to the second designation as an FTO. Same 

question. 

A. That is correct; they did.

Q. Who was making the payments -- Who is authorizing the 

payments to the Nablus zakat committee?

A. Defendant Shukri Abu Baker, Ghassan Elashi, and several 

other HLF employees.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Go to the last page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the date of the last payment to 

the Nablus zakat committee?

A. October 11th, 2001.

Q. And how much was paid in total from the HLF to the Nablus 

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zakat committee?

A. We tracked $475,715.

MR. JONAS: If we can put on the screen the chart 

Nablus Zakat Summary. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, there is four individuals on 

this one, and we are not going to hit them all but I do want 

to talk about the first one, Hamad Bitawi. 

A. Okay.

Q. Were there any pictures of Hamad Bitawi seized from the 

Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes.

Q. Do the pictures identify him as Hamad Bitawi?

A. Some of them do.

MR. JONAS: If we can put HLF Search No. 101 on the 

screen, and go to the second picture, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is there a translation of the document 

and identification of the individuals in this picture 

somewhere in this exhibit?

A. There are several pictures. Hamad Bitawi is in the black 

the white hat and the long white beard. If you go back to the 

previous picture, you can recognize him from that tent video 

that we saw. He is the second one from the left. We saw him 

on the tent video. But in one of these pictures on the back 

of the picture he is identified.

Q. Okay. 

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MR. JONAS: If we can go to the translation. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does that identify him?

A. It is probably the next one. There.

Q. Okay. Is there another picture of him seized from the 

Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, I believe from the computers.

Q. When you say you believe from the computers, what do you 

mean?

A. Items that were downloaded off of the HLF computers that 

were seized during the search warrants.

MR. JONAS: If we can put HLF Search No. 131 on the 

screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that Hamed Bitawi?

A. It is.

Q. Is there writing on this that you have seen from the 

downloaded picture that is kind of whitewashed out of this 

picture because it is kind of bright?

A. Yes. When you are looking at the actual image from the 

computer on the disk, the word Hamas in English is behind his 

head, but when printed out the ink is too light or something 

and it will not print out, so the only way you can see that is 

by looking at the actual image from the computer. But you can 

still see the gun in his hand and I guess the Quran in the 

other one.

Q. Did we see him in any of the videos we have played today?

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A. In the tent video.

Q. Okay. Is he praised or referenced in any other videos we 

have seen? 

A. He has been praised by Hamas leader Khalid Mishal in the 

1992 MAYA conference and also a videotape that we haven't 

played wherein he discusses the HLF.

Q. Okay. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Is there a date for this picture? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you know the date of the picture, the 

date the picture was taken. 

A. I don't. We would have to ask the computer people what 

date the image was created. I don't know. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to Baker Wiretap No. 22. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Staying with Hamed Bitawi, is he 

mentioned in this document? Withdrawn. What is this 

document?

A. This is a flier regarding an HLF fundraising event or 

events. One side of it is the English discussing one evening 

I guess with speakers, and then the other side is in Arabic 

discussing another evening with other speakers.

Q. Is Hamed Bitawi on the other English side?

A. No.

Q. What does the translation say with regard to Hamed 

Bitawi?

A. It indicates during the Ramadan program that Sheikh Hamed 

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Bitawi would participate, and it is a Holy Land Foundation 

teleconference.

Q. I am holding up HLF Search No. 87, which is the overseas 

speakers list. Is Hamed Bitawi on the overseas speakers list?

A. He is, No. 27.

Q. All right. Hamad Bitawi is there any evidence listed on 

this chart that connects him to the Nablus zakat committee?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Nablus Zakat Account No. 2, page 1. 

THE WITNESS: We need to note the picture, because 

this is the first document -- These are the bank records, and 

this is his identification document. You can see his face. 

Because his name, as I stated before, they have very long 

names, and so his name, as noted on the translation, is just a 

portion of his name, and you will see what I am talking about, 

so that is why I wanted us to look at the picture.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) These are the bank accounts for?

A. Nablus zakat.

Q. And on the translation do we see his name?

A. You see part of his name. You see Hamid Sulaiman Khdeir. 

You don't see the last name Bitawi. You see it later on in 

the bank records, but not here.

Q. Okay. Do they discuss Nablus in the Philadelphia 

meeting?

A. Yes.

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Q. On Elbarasse Search No. 22, which is that letter to 

Shukri Baker listing out committees, where it says, "Some of 

it is ours," "all of it is ours," "guaranteed," is the Nablus 

zakat committee listed on that document?

A. It is.

Q. What does it say for that document? 

MR. JONAS: Just pull it up. I am sorry. Elbarasse 

Search No. 22. If we can put that on the screen, please. 

THE WITNESS: At this point in '91 they say, "We 

have nobody in it. His wife is one of us. We have a 

relationship with Haj Yaish."

MR. JONAS: If I can get the elmo, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Again I am going to refer back to 

Philadelphia Meeting No. 13, which occurred how long after 

Elbarasse Search No. 22?

A. A couple of years.

Q. And do you see where it is marked Nablus zakat committee?

A. Yes.

Q. Reading from I guess -- I am looking for where the 

sentence starts. Do you see it says, "In the West"? Do you 

see that?

A. I am looking for it, but there is so little print on --

Q. Start from there. Do you see, "In the West"? Do you 

want me to hand it to you? Would it be easier?

A. No, it is okay. "In the West Bank in the north region, 

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which includes Nablus, Jenin, Qalqilia, and Al Biqa'a 

[valley], there was relatively old activity such as Nablus 

zakat committee in Nablus, which was founded in 1976. It is 

very advanced in comparison with the other committees. For 

instance, they have over 1,000 orphans, over 2200 families 

which are sponsored monthly. They have investment activities 

and other activities. But when we speak about it as a zakat 

committee, we tie it to us."

Q. Okay. Let's move on to another committee. Islamic 

Science and Culture Committee. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Payments to Islamic 

Science and Culture on the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. What is the date of the first payment to the Islamic 

Science and Culture Committee by the HLF?

A. May 1st, 1991.

Q. And if we can scroll through this document, do they 

continue making payments after Hamas was first designated as a 

specially designated terrorist?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they continue making payments after Hamas was 

designated as a foreign terrorist organization?

A. No, they stopped after July 18th, 1996.

Q. How much in total did the HLF pay the Islamic Science and 

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Culture Committee?

A. $485,468 that we identified.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the Islamic Science and 

Culture Committee Summary, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) There are four names here, and the first 

name is Jamil Hamami, who there has been quite a bit of 

testimony about. Was there a videotape that was seized that 

shows Jamil Hamami?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there several?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: All right. Let's play InfoCom Search 

No. 67.

(Whereupon, InfoCom Search No. 67 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is Jamil Hamami in this screen?

A. He is. He is the individual on the right of the screen 

with the long beard.

Q. Do you know when this video was taken?

A. This would have been late '80s, early '90s.

Q. The picture on Demonstrative No. 17 of Jamil Hamami, if 

you can see it, shows him with a shorter beard?

A. Yes.

Q. So the fact he has a dark beard in this video, does that 

help approximate the date?

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A. It does. And let me modify my statement, because this 

was when the funding of the al-Noman School was going on. 

This would have been early '90s. 

Q. Who is brother Abu Ibrahim?

A. That would be the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And brother Shukri?

A. That is brother Shukri Abu Baker. And in looking at 

this, you can determine -- you can even more narrow down the 

date, because it shows that the Holy Land Foundation had 

already changed its name and moved to Dallas, so that would 

mean that it was at least 1992.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, were there discussions about Jamil 

Hamami at the Philadelphia conference?

A. Yes.

Q. Specifically him?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: So I don't have to keep going back to 

the elmo and moving the document around, I am going to try to 

pull up the transcript. 

Can We have page three, please? Can you enlarge the 

center? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see where it says, 

"This is one of the problems which are not solved"?

A. Yes.

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Q. Can you read from there?

A. It says, "This is one of the problems which are not 

solved, the affiliation of the organization with exposed 

people, so when a problem happens with a man, a problem 

happens with the organization. I mean, the Islamic Sciences 

and Culture Society used to have a research center which was 

the nucleus for a huge research center until the person in 

charge Sheik Jamil Hamami was arrested and this became an 

obstacle and a hindrance for the development of that project. 

We have a school and a kindergarten and some orphan 

sponsorships in that region."

Q. Okay. Did you come across anything in the search warrant 

material connecting Jamil Hamami to Hamas?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to HLF Search No. 108, page 

13. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a Middle East Affairs Journal taken from the HLF 

offices reporting on Hamas.

Q. What does it say about Jamil Hamami?

A. In the paragraph next to the last at the bottom it says, 

"Yassin"--who is the Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin--"in 

consultation with the six other founding members managed the 

complexities of administers Hamas' affairs. Prior to his 1989 

arrest, Yassin was al-Mas'ul al'Am (director general) of the 

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Movement. He assigned Shaykh Jamil Hamami, a brotherhood 

activist in the West Bank, to establish with his colleagues a 

branch for Hamas there. Hamami thus became the liaison 

between the leadership in Gaza on the one hand and the Hamas 

command in the West Bank and the brotherhood command in Jordan 

on the other."

Q. Okay. Is the Islamic Science and Culture Committee also 

referenced in Elbarasse Search No. 22, the letter we have gone 

to a few times?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull that one up real quick, 

page 5. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what does this letter to Shukri Baker 

say about the Islamic Science and Culture Committee?

A. The writer says, "We have three of our people in it."

Q. Okay. Are you ready to move on to another committee?

A. Yes. Just to point out, though, that Jamil Hamami we 

have been discussing him as a Hamas leader. Just as a 

reminder -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection, Your Honor. I don't 

think there is a question on the floor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, let's move to Islamic Relief 

Committee. 

MR. JONAS: If we can get to Payments to Islamic 

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Relief Committee schedule on the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And when did the HLF start making 

payments to the Islamic Relief Committee?

A. April 12, 1991.

MR. JONAS: If we can scroll forward. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Did they make payments after Hamas was 

first designated as a specially designated terrorist?

A. Yes.

Q. How about after they were designated as a foreign 

terrorist organization?

A. No.

Q. How much in total did the HLF give the 

Islamic -- Withdrawn. What is the date of the last 

transaction between the HLF and the Islamic Relief Agency?

A. February 15, 1996. 

Q. How much in total did the HLF give to the Islamic Relief 

Committee?

A. $1,430,811.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the Islamic Relief 

Committee summary chart, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) You have got three names on here. I want 

to talk to you just about one of them, Jamal Mansour. He is 

the name on the far right. 

A. Actually there is four names.

Q. Right. He is still the name on the far right? 

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A. Yes.

Q. Have we seen him today, this morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. He was in the deportees video in the tent. He identified 

himself as a representative of the Islamic Relief Committee.

Q. HLF Search No. 70, the tent video?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up also --

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) is he referenced in Marzook's phonebook?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Marzook Phonebook, 

page 52. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where is that?

A. He is about halfway down, Jamal Mansour.

MR. JONAS: Finally, if we can look at Elbarasse 

Search No. 24, page 3. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a list that we looked at a little bit earlier 

with some of the Hamas leaders' numbers on it, and Jamal 

Mansour's number, he is the second one listed.

Q. Okay. Getting back to the committee as a whole, under 

the general committee column -- 

MR. JONAS: I want to turn to Elbarasse Search No. 

18. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I believe this is a letter you may have 

testified about in your first testimony. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the English, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is the fax from the Islamic Relief Committee in 

August of 1992 that was found in the Elbarasse materials, 

along with some other Marzook documents.

Q. What is this letter asking for?

A. It is asking for money for weapons for jihad.

MR. JONAS: Scroll down, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you have a copy of the letter before 

you?

A. I do.

Q. You haven't pulled out your binders in a while. 

A. I just have to figure out which binder it is in. 

Q. Can you just tell us where within the letter it asks for 

money for weapons that the Islamic Relief Committee is sending 

out this letter?

A. Okay. There are several references in the letter, so 

just bear with me for a second as I identify the specific 

paragraphs. 

If you turn to page 12, there is a portion of it where it 

talks about the pride of jihad and martyrdom and the Al-Qassam 

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Brigades.

MS. MORENO: Where is she reading from? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you identify on the screen the 

portion of the letter?

A. Yes. Right there, "If we have another source of pride 

and glory, I cannot but convey to you the people's feelings 

and joy for the pride of the jihad and martyrdom and for the 

bearers of the banner of dignity and glory Al-Qassam 

Brigades." And it goes on to talk about the paragraph that we 

read this morning. 

The next page the first paragraph he says, "Do not rest 

and do not twinkle until you care about us, and provide us 

with what helps us of funds and weapons, weapons, weapons, our 

brothers."

Q. Okay. 

A. There are several other references throughout the letter 

to needing weapons.

MR. JONAS: Okay. And finally on this committee, 

let's go to Ashqar Search No. 11 page 3, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And does this have any reference to the 

Islamic Relief Committee?

A. Yes. It actually has Sulieman Ighbariya, No. 43. That 

is one of the individuals on this chart referenced as a leader 

in the Islamic Relief Committee.

Q. Okay. Do you see anything else pertaining to the Islamic 

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Relief Committee?

A. I see the Islamic Relief Committee in No. 45, and it is 

referenced Dubai, but I can't say for certain that that is the 

same committee.

Q. What is the title of this document, this particular page?

A. "Important phone and fax numbers."

Q. Okay. Let's move on to another committee. The Bethlehem 

Orphan Society. Did the HLF make payments to the Bethlehem 

Orphan Society?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull the Payments to Bethlehem 

Orphan Society schedule on the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And when was the first payment made?

A. June 20th, 1991.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can scroll through this exhibit. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Were there payments made after Hamas was 

designated as a specially designated terrorist organization?

A. Yes.

Q. How about after Hamas was designated as a foreign 

terrorist organization?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was making authorizing the payments?

A. The Defendants Shukri Abu Baker and Ghassan Elashi.

Q. When is the date of the last payment?

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A. October 23rd, 2001.

Q. A how much in total did the HLF pay to the Bethlehem 

Orphan Society?

A. Let me just state for clarification purposes, on this 

chart initially the payments were being made to the Bethlehem 

zakat committee, and then to the Bethlehem Orphan Care 

Society, so this is actually two societies.

Q. Okay.

A. And it is $429,006.

Q. Is there a reason why both of them are on one chart?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is that?

A. An individual named Ghassan Harmas was the primary person 

that the HLF had contact with through the Bethlehem zakat, and 

in the late '90s he moved to the Bethlehem Orphan Society and 

so did their money.

Q. Did they continue giving money to the Bethlehem zakat 

committee after Ghassan Harmas left that organization?

A. I did not identify any payments to the Bethlehem zakat 

committee after they began paying to the Bethlehem Orphan Care 

Association.

Q. Was there payments to the Bethlehem Orphan Society prior 

to Ghassan Harmas going to that organization?

A. No.

Q. So they basically followed him?

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A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the Bethlehem Orphan 

Society summary schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, there is only three names on 

this one, and one of them is Ghassan Harmas that you just 

mentioned, so I want to talk about him for a moment. Did he 

have two jobs?

A. He did.

Q. And what were his two jobs?

A. Well, he was with these committees, as we have talked 

about, and he also served as the HLF's representative in 

Bethlehem, according to a videotape I have seen.

Q. Is that referenced in this particular schedule that is on 

the screen?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to HLF Search No. 109, 

page 2, please. Go back one page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is the book that we referenced 

several times. Without going back to it all, is Ghassan 

Harmas referenced in this book?

A. He is.

Q. InfoCom Search No. 25, the list of deportees taken from 

InfoCom, was Ghassan Harmas a deportee, based upon that 

document?

A. Yes.

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Q. Okay. Let's move on to the next committee, the Qalqilya 

zakat committee. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put on the screen the Payments 

to the Qalqilya Zakat Committee schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when was the first payment 

to the Qalqilya zakat committee? 

A. February 20th, 1992.

MR. JONAS: If we can scroll through this schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Did they continue making payments after 

Hamas was designated?

A. They did.

Q. And after Hamas was designated a second time as a foreign 

terrorist organization?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is authorizing the payments to the Qalqilya zakat 

committee?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker, Ghassan Elashi, and 

several other HLF employees.

Q. What is the date of the last payment?

A. October 11th, 2001.

Q. And by the way, Agent Burns, have a lot of these last 

payments, not all of them certainly, but a lot of them been in 

the year 2001; the last payments between the HLF and some of 

these zakat committees -- 

A. The final payment? 

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Q. The final payment. 

A. I just wanted to make sure I understood your question.

Q. Yes. 

A. Yes. On a number of these charts that we have been 

discussing today, the final payments were made in late 2001.

Q. Okay. Did the HLF continue to do business after 2001?

A. No, they did not.

Q. Does that explain why we don't see anymore payments after 

that time period?

A. Yes. They did not exist after then.

Q. How much in total did the HLF pay to the Qalqilya zakat 

committee?

A. $295,187.

MR. JONAS: If we can go back to Elbarasse Search 

No. 22, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am not going to ask you any questions 

about the Qalqilya members, which there are three. You know 

what? Before we do that, I jumped ahead. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Qalqilya zakat 

committee Summary on the screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Now you see there are three members of 

the Qalqilya zakat committee referenced on the schedule?

A. Yes.

Q. I am only going to ask you about the last column, the 

general committee. Is Qalqilya zakat committee referenced in 

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Elbarasse Search No. 22?

A. It is.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to that exhibit, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Where is it referenced?

A. No. 7, it says, "All of it is ours and it is guaranteed."

Q. Okay. Let's move to the last schedule, Tulkarem zakat 

committee. 

MR. JONAS: And if we can get on the screen the 

payments to the Tulkarem zakat committee schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when was the first payment 

made to the Tulkarem zakat committee?

A. May 1st, 1991.

MR. JONAS: And if we can scroll through this 

exhibit, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Were there payments made after Hamas was 

first designated a as specially designated terrorist?

A. Yes.

Q. Payments continue after Hamas was designated as a foreign 

terrorist organization?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the date of the last payment to the Tulkarem 

zakat committee?

A. October 25th, 2001.

Q. How much in total did the HLF give the Tulkarem zakat 

committee?

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A. We tracked $366,585.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can get on the screen the summary 

schedule Tulkarem Zakat Committee Summary. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, you have got seven 

individuals on this schedule. I am going to ask you about a 

couple of them. There is a name Bilal Khamis, the third name. 

Do you see that?

A. I do.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up Elbarasse Search 

No. 22, page 4, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And is his name anywhere there?

A. It is -- Under Tulkarem zakat it says, "We have one, Haj 

Aref El Jayoussi, director of Tulkarem endowments, and Bilal 

Khamis, a supporter. The rest are merchants without an 

inclination."

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Going back to the summary schedule. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see the name Bashar Al Karami? 

A. I do.

Q. I stumbled over that for some reason. Can you pronounce 

that for me? 

A. Al Karami.

Q. Is he one of the deportees, per that InfoCom Search No. 

25 exhibit?

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A. Yes, that list.

Q. Do you see the last name Abu Samaha?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Ashqar Search No. 3, 

page 3, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is his name anywhere on the Ashqar list?

A. Yes. It is down toward the bottom. This list we have 

looked at several times. He is fifth from the bottom. 

MR. JONAS: Finally, with regard to the general 

committee, if we can go to Ashqar Search No. 5, page 20. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is the Tulkarem zakat committee 

referenced in this document?

A. It is.

Q. How so?

A. It says, "Two supporters are in it and the rest are 

dignitaries."

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, you have identified several 

individuals in these zakat committees that had two jobs, using 

the phrase that we have used? Did the HLF, besides having 

representatives that you have identified that also worked in 

some of the zakat committees have representatives who were not 

affiliated with the zakat committees but that worked for the 

HLF?

A. Yes.

Q. I just want to ask you about one of them. Are you 

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familiar with a man named Akram Kharoubi?

A. I am.

Q. Was he -- Who was he, in relationship to the HLF?

A. In relationship to the HLF, he was the HLF's 

representative in Ramallah for a time. Prior to that he was 

in the United States.

Q. Is that based upon the documents that you reviewed as 

part of this case?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can look at Mushtaha Search No. 5. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a letter from Akram Kharoubi.

MR. JONAS: If we can scroll to the English, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does this document say?

A. It is addressed to the executive committee of Dar 

al-Hijrah, which is a mosque. And it is from 1991. And he is 

requesting that the mosque -- If you see in the second 

paragraph, "I propose to the executive committee at Dar 

al-Hijrah to do the following things which would support the 

cause of the steadfastness of our Muslim people in the 

occupied homeland: 

"1. Granting permission to place a permanent donation 

box for the Occupied Land Fund, a charitable organization that 

is tax exempt." 

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And "5. Soliciting donations on appropriate occasions to 

support jihad in Palestine." 

And he signs it in this case "Dr. Akram Kharoubi, 

chairman of the Islamic Association for Palestine."

Q. Okay. 

A. Which is the IAP.

Q. Agent Burns, I am going to show you the meeting summary 

chart. We haven't looked at this for a while. Is Akram 

Kharoubi's name on here?

A. It is.

Q. Where?

A. He is No. 5.

Q. He is listed as an HLF person?

A. Yes.

Q. It says IAP and PC. 

A. Palestine Committee.

Q. It is checked off he is a speaker, so did he -- The 

transcripts show that he spoke at the Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes, they do.

Q. Since we are speaking about Philadelphia, let me ask you 

some questions about that. 

MS. DUNCAN: Mr. Jonas, we don't show Mushtaha 

Search No. 5 in evidence. 

MR. JONAS: I apologize. It is one I missed. 

I offer it into evidence Mushtaha Search No. 5.

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MS. DUNCAN: It wasn't on the list. Can we have the 

time to look over it? 

THE COURT: Do you have it available where you can 

show it to them? 

MS. DUNCAN: I do have it. I just haven't looked at 

it.

MR. JONAS: I apologize, Your Honor, and apologize, 

Ms. Duncan. I moved on from there. 

THE COURT: Is this what you were just reading from? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. And I offer it into evidence 

at this time. 

THE COURT: Give her a minute, then. 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, I am sorry. Can we just 

approach briefly? 

THE COURT: Sure. Does somebody have it and can 

bring it up here? 

MR. DRATEL: I can bring it up on a computer.

THE COURT: That is fine. Bring it up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. JONAS: There is a search warrant of Mushtaha's 

house that was done a couple of years prior to -- While he 

lived there they executed a search warrant, and then he moved 

out and that is when the current homeowner moved in and did 

the digging. I think she may have mentioned it.

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MS. HOLLANDER: I think our objections are the -- 

MS. DUNCAN: If you can clarify that it wasn't dug 

up. 

I think with the contents, I don't know if anyone has 

specific objections, but we object on the basis we have been 

raising for the Ashqar, the Elbarasse, and the Mushtaha that 

it is hearsay.

MR. DRATEL: In addition to collateral estoppel and 

double jeopardy.

THE COURT: Those are overruled. Mushtaha Search 

No. 5 is admitted. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, before I ask you about 

Philadelphia again, the Philadelphia meeting, I just want to 

go back real quick to Mushtaha Search No. 5, which is a letter 

you read on the screen a few moments ago. There were 

videotapes you talked about, and another witness talked about, 

being dug up in the backyard. Was this letter dug up in the 

backyard from his house?

A. No, this was found within the house.

Q. Okay. Was this found at the same time that was dug up, 

or was it a separate matter?

A. It was found in a search warrant which preceded, came 

before, the unearthing of the videotapes.

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Q. All right. I want to talk to you about the Philadelphia 

meeting with regard to these zakat committees, but not the one 

that you have read already, Philadelphia meeting No. 13. 

Did the participants at the Philadelphia meeting have 

other conversations regarding the societies over in the West 

Bank and Gaza? 

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can put on the screen Philadelphia 

Meeting No. 5-E, page 4, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you see the larger 

portion on the bottom, the larger segment?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is speaking?

A. This is the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can enlarge just the middle 

portion that starts, "the second thing." 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, can you read just that 

sentence that starts with "The second thing"?

A. "The second thing we were talking about that in the 

morning is that our brothers in the occupied territories will 

be -- pretend to go along with the self-rule and none of their 

societies will be shut down, and this is a matter that hasn't 

been settled yet." 

Q. Okay. 

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MR. JONAS: Let's go to Philadelphia Meeting No. 11, 

if we can play -- This one we will play, Philadelphia Meeting 

No. 11, Clip D, please.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 11, Clip D was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, the Young Men's Muslim 

Association, have you testified about that?

A. Yes.

Q. What is it connected to?

A. The Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron.

Q. Agent Burns, when the law was created in 1996 which 

allowed the Government to start designating organizations as 

foreign terrorist organizations, did any of the Defendants 

have a conversation about this law?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker and Ghassan Elashi.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Baker Wiretap No. 11, 

11-A, the audio.

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap No. 11 was played, while 

questions were propounded.) 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, is Ghassan Elashi listing 

out some of the organizations that you identified today as 

ones that receive payments from the HLF?

A. Yes.

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Q. Agent Burns, as far as you know -- 

MS. MORENO: Excuse me, Your Honor. May we 

approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.) 

MS. MORENO: Counsel, this is not the entire 

conversation that we had an agreement on that you were going 

to admit through Agent Burns, is it? 

MR. JONAS: We did not an have an agreement that we 

were going to play the entire conversation. We were asked if 

we would play the call. I said yes. We were never going to 

play the entire conversation.

MS. HOLLANDER: That was my understanding. 

MR. JONAS: That was not my understanding.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, if I may, this call is 

extremely important to Mr. Elashi, and I think to Mr. Baker. 

We got it in in the first trial after a motion practice, and I 

am not saying that the entire -- I am not referring to the 

entire conversation. The conversation that we got in the last 

time that was the subject of discussions with counsel is an 

abbreviated part, but it is more than what you have just 

played. Isn't that right? 

MR. JONAS: Absolutely it is right, but you never 

came to us and said which portions you want. All the question 

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was is "Are you going to play this call?" And the answer is, 

"Yes, we are going to play the call." We have rarely played a 

full call, and you yourself are acknowledging now you are not 

asking for the whole call. If you approached me with a 

segment that you wanted us to play, we would have considered 

it. We still have that opportunity. We are at the end of the 

day, per your request. If you have a 106 request, come to me 

and we can talk about it. You never approached us with 

additional --

MS. MORENO: We absolutely did. Let me finish. You 

have had your say. We gave them the exact transcript of last 

year's, which was the redacted portion. It was far more than 

this, and counsel knows that. We looked at the same 

transcript. 

We are not going to agree on this now, Your Honor, but I 

want the opportunity to have a 106 and go into those portions 

that I believe Mr. Cline will also agree that was the subject 

of an agreement with the Prosecution that they were going to 

play; not the whole conversation, but that redacted portion 

that they played during the first trial, which is not this 

portion. 

MR. JONAS: No, absolutely not.

THE COURT: Obviously we are not going to resolve 

it. He is saying take it to him and see if you can agree on 

whatever it is you are going to play. If you don't agree, 

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tell me in the morning. 

Are you ready to stop? 

MS. MORENO: Yes. 

MS. CADEDDU: I am starting to feel very bad.

THE COURT: You are, too? 

THE COURT: We will just break. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I just don't want to be near them. 

THE COURT: Why don't we go ahead and break, and be 

back by 8:45 in case you all don't reach agreement.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, other than Mr. Westfall 

giving me a disk of exhibits he anticipates offering from 

Agent Burns, I have not received a list of exhibits from 

defense counsel. I understand they are working on it, but we 

need an opportunity to object. And I will be passing her 

sometime tomorrow, probably mid morning.

THE COURT: What about that? I would like to see 

the objections this afternoon so I can look at them. I will 

not have a chance tomorrow before the cross. Well, we will 

have the one witness.

MR. JONAS: I still need time to look at their list 

of the objections.

THE COURT: I need time to look at that as well. 

When are you going to be able to get your list of exhibits to 

the Government as far -- 

MS. DUNCAN: We are meeting right after court to 

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talk about that.

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and let the jury go. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to 

recess here for the day. There are some matters I need to 

take up, so we will recess you. 

Recall the instructions that we have been over, and see 

you back at 9:00 in the morning. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Agent, you can step down. 

MS. DUNCAN: We had another matter we wanted to take 

up at the bench. 

THE COURT: Come on up. 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, I just wanted to move on 

behalf of Mr. Abu Baker based on InfoCom Search No. 68, as 

Your Honor saw, the portion having to do with the American 

demonstrations took up five to seven minutes, which the part 

having to do with the issues in this case, the library, was no 

more than ten minutes. And the jury's reaction was palpable, 

covering their mouths. There is an extreme emotional reaction 

to that part. So based on that we just don't think Mr. Abu 

Baker can get a fair trial, and move for a mistrial.

MR. DRATEL: I would join. Some things cannot be 

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cross examined or instructed away, and this was one of them. 

MS. MORENO: Join on behalf of Mr. Elashi.

MS. CADEDDU: Join on behalf of Mr. Abdulqader.

MR. JONAS: I assume Mr. Westfall will as well.

MS. HOLLANDER: I just want to add, it was 

completely political, the thing Your Honor has said you are 

trying to keep out of this case, and that was the only reason 

to bring it in. 

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I would say -- I mean, it 

is irrelevant to the issues. Whether people were burning 

American flags is irrelevant to the issues.

THE COURT: And those motions for mistrial are 

denied. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I have a separate mistrial 

motion based on the collateral estoppel, and I will just point 

out a couple of exhibits that were referenced specifically to 

Mr. El-Mezain, all which predate InfoCom No. 30--El-Mezain 

Wiretap No. 1. And they were all specifically Mr. El-Mezain 

received this, this was directed to Mr. El-Mezain, this was a 

letter to him. The tent video where people talk about him. 

Ashqar Search No. 13. 

I asked for instruction before, I am asking for 

instruction now. I think a mistrial is the only remedy, but I 

am also still asking for an instruction because the jury is 

getting all this, is absorbing all of this, and it will be too 

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late at the end of the case -- 

THE COURT: What instruction is it you are wanting? 

MR. DRATEL: They are not to consider that with 

respect to collateral estoppel and those issues.

THE COURT: I think they are properly before the 

jury for consideration, so I will deny that motion as well. 

MR. JONAS: One matter I want to inform the Court 

on, and you may be aware of this. I don't know. 

During the night a motion was filed regarding Defense 

witness Abington.

THE COURT: That motion in limine? 

MR. JONAS: Yes. I just want -- The CIA was 

concerned about the motion, and they asked it be removed from 

the ECF docket.

THE COURT: Yes. And we did.

MR. DRATEL: I don't know if you know that we 

resolved it.

THE COURT: We are still on the record. One at a 

time.

MS. DUNCAN: Can the Defendants leave, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: The Defendants can leave, yes. 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: I told Barry we were submitting or 

exchanging the exhibits, because I accidentally filed two 

letters that relate to another witness. Those were not 

letters that were exchanged in a classified manner or anything 

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like that.

MR. JONAS: That is not the CIA's concern. The 

concern about the substance of the motion I can't address, the 

concern. That is coming from them. And I think they will 

probably address it with Your Honor at some point. You know 

they will be here Thursday.

THE COURT: Are they planning on filing a 

written -- 

MR. JONAS: I don't know.

THE COURT: Are you going to file a written response 

to the motion in limine? 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: They are concerned about the 

substance of the motion itself? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Not about the motion.

MR. JONAS: I know they are concerned about 

something in the motion, and the I think their knee-jerk 

reaction was "Let's get it off the public docket until we get 

a better chance to evaluate it."

MR. DRATEL: Mr. Cline has been in touch with them 

as well to try to find out exactly what the concern is.

MR. JONAS: I believe Mr. Cline spoke to the court 

security officer. I am not downstairs, so I don't know 

exactly the latest. I just wanted to make sure Your Honor was 

aware.

THE COURT: I was aware, and we have also heard from 

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them as well. And it has been taken off the docket, and we 

will eventually put it back on there. We need to get it on at 

some point. It needs to be part of the record.

MR. DRATEL: In whatever form it is. 

THE COURT: If you get it resolved, then yes.

MR. JONAS: It is the CIA's issue, so I need to take 

direction from them as to how it is going to be responded to 

by the Government. 

THE COURT: You will wind up with Agent Burns, then, 

sometime in the morning? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: And we will take this witness out of 

turn? 

MR. JONAS: If you want to take him next, that is 

fine with us, and then back to Agent Burns.

THE COURT: And then the cross of Agent Burns.

MR. JONAS: We have a witness we are scheduling for 

Thursday, Bruce Hoffman.

THE COURT: Is he an expert? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: I need to start looking over those 

motions. So he will be the first one, Hoffman? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

MS. HOLLANDER: We have a pending Daubert motion.

THE COURT: And who do you expect after him? 

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MR. JONAS: Avi. So Bruce Hoffman is sort of 

limited to Thursday and Friday, and this week I know Friday we 

don't have court.

THE COURT: How long do you expect your direct of 

Hoffman? 

MR. JONAS: Less than an hour; maybe an hour tops.

MS. HOLLANDER: And I can't be here Friday. We have 

Friday off.

THE COURT: Right.

MR. JONAS: We have a scheduling issue. We need to 

get him on Thursday. 

THE COURT: What is your expected direct of Avi? 

MR. JONAS: It is at least a day.

THE COURT: So a couple of days for him.

MS. HOLLANDER: Is he the last one? 

MR. JONAS: I believe so. There are some witnesses 

between. I am sorry. There is Robert McBrien is tomorrow. 

We have a witness from USAID who will testify. He is not 

going to be long at all. There is a woman from the FBI 

computer section who is not going to testify long, to get in 

some evidence that was seized that was taken from the HLF 

computers, Bruce Hoffman, and Avi. The order, of course, is 

dictated by the timing. We are scheduling Bruce Hoffman 

Thursday, so I need to get him on Thursday.

THE COURT: So that is all you have left? 

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MR. JONAS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right. 

MR. DRATEL: We argued, I don't know if you 

remember, probably, in voir dire we argued about Hoffman and 

the question of whether it is appropriate or cumulative, all 

those things.

THE COURT: Okay. Let me go back at the motions and 

get refreshed. 

MR. JONAS: We should file something on that today.

MR. DRATEL: I am not sure if it is a response or 

reply or whatever. 

MR. JACKS: It is called trial memo.

MR. DRATEL: In regard to Mr. Hoffman? 

MR. WESTFALL: Simon was probably enough to bring 

9/11 into this as much as it needs to come in.

MR. JONAS: Let me just say, Bruce Hoffman is not 

going to talk about 9/11, and doesn't have to talk about 

Al-Qaeda. That is not his intention. That is not his purpose 

for his testimony, and will not mention Al-Qeada. It doesn't 

have to -- He will mention other terrorist groups that follow 

along with -- it is in our brief, Your Honor. I can leave it 

to that.

THE COURT: The one you filed today? 

MR. JONAS: Yes. 

The lack of disbelief on the part of Defense counsel 

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notwithstanding, we think that their actions in cross 

examining certain witnesses, especially Shorbagi, has 

completely opened the door for Doctor Hoffman to come in.

MS. HOLLANDER: Let me just state on the record, 

last Sunday I met with Mr. Jonas before Shorbagi and -- I 

believe it was Sunday.

MR. JONAS: It was a few days ago.

MS. HOLLANDER: And asked him, and he said, "We are 

absolutely calling Hoffman."

MR. JONAS: That is right. And I said the actions 

of Defense counsel have made it even more obvious his need.

THE COURT: I haven't read the brief. Let me take a 

look of that.

MS. CADEDDU: I would ask Your Honor, if you can, to 

take a look at -- The Government in its brief, and I have read 

the brief, and it doesn't talk about particular -- It doesn't 

identify which other terrorist groups he is going to talk 

about, that I can recall, but it does make reference to a part 

of Ms. Hollander's cross and says that she brought up in cross 

the clean hands. That was actually brought out on direct by 

Mr. Jacks. And I just would like you to review the record on 

that. 

MR. JONAS: Either way, Your Honor, I think the 

progression of the cross, starting with the opening 

statements, the progression of the cross, all the witnesses 

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culminating in Shorbagi -- 

THE COURT: Let me read that. Are you planning on 

filing any written response? 

MS. HOLLANDER: It just came while we were here. I 

have been reading it for about five minutes.

THE COURT: We are looking at next week for Hoffman 

anyway --

MR. JONAS: No, Thursday; day after tomorrow.

MR. DRATEL: We will look at it and do something 

tonight.

THE COURT: As long as it is sometime tomorrow. 

MR. JONAS: It sounds like after I am done with 

Agent Burns' direct then you guys want to do McBrien? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes. We want to make sure --

MR. JONAS: And he shouldn't be too long either.

THE COURT: Okay. 8:45 in the morning.

(End of day.)

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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts 06/30/2009

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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