IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( OCTOBER 17, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 20 OF 37

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STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 (214) 753-2349

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INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

MOHAMED SHORBAGI

Direct By MR. JACKS............................................. 17

Cross By MS. MORENO............................................. 124

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THE COURT: I understood there was a matter we 

needed to take up. 

MR. CLINE: Yes, Your Honor. May we approach the 

bench? 

THE COURT: Yes. Come on up. 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

MR. CLINE: I wanted to do this outside the hearing 

of the witness. 

We have had a chance to read through the witness' 302s 

and transcripts. Now, that is the royal "we" because I can't 

say I read every one of them. 

We have a couple of concerns that we just want to alert 

the Court to so you will understand why we are objecting when 

we are objecting. 

I think the Court observed yesterday the witness is a 

little bit of a loose cannon. He is not like the agents and 

experts we have had before who are pretty disciplined. 

He has a tendency to say "everyone knew" such and such, 

"everyone knew they were Hamas." "Everyone knew this." 

"Everyone knew that." 

We believe that is improper testimony because of lack of 

personal knowledge, hearsay, 403, and so on. And so we may be 

objecting if he starts to say that. But I would also ask the 

Government to make the questions pretty precise with him to 

avoid eliciting that kind of thing.

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The second thing that I think he has a little bit of a 

tendency to do is he will testify to a fact that it turns out 

he knows only from reading it in the paper, let's say. There 

was what I think might be an example of that yesterday, 

although I may have misinterpreted something. He identified 

the voice on that video as Mr. Ashqar. We are not disputing 

it is Mr. Ashqar, but from reading the 302 it looks like he 

learned that was Ashqar because somebody told him. That is 

how he learned that it was Ashqar on the tape. So now he is 

repeating as his own knowledge something that he really 

learned from somebody else. 

The thing about Ashqar I don't think makes any 

difference, but the point is that we may be attempting to ask 

the Government through foundation objections, lack of personal 

knowledge objections, asking the Government to lay a personal 

knowledge predicate in a bit more precise a way than we have 

asked with the agents and the experts when it is a different 

kind of issue. 

I just wanted to alert the Court to that to make sure 

that you understood the background. 

THE COURT: Sure. Right.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, let me address the one about 

Mr. Ashqar. It is true that initially he was told by a friend 

of his that that was Mr. Ashqar, but then later -- 

THE COURT: Was he at that conference? 

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MR. JACKS: No. But later after he met Ashqar and I 

think had several conversations with him, he confirmed what 

his friend had told him. He recognized his voice. And so 

while initially it may have been his friend said, "Yeah, that 

is Ashqar," he later had personal dealings with them. Their 

wives would talk on the phone. I mean, they knew each other. 

So that is how he is able to testify, among other things, that 

that is Ashqar.

The other thing, with regard to his testimony or his 

statements that everybody knew, that is basically the nature 

of his answers is that it was just such common knowledge among 

this group about who was involved in doing things for Hamas 

and what these organizations were about and what they were 

doing and who these individuals were, and I understood that, 

you know, from a traditional standpoint that you would probe a 

person's knowledge, but his answer is going to be just from 

conversations with his friends and associates and other people 

that were doing this a same thing he was doing, going to these 

conventions; that it was just common knowledge and well known. 

And the reading of the newspaper or checking the 

internet, his testimony is that that just confirmed or 

corroborated what he knew. So in the sense that, you know, to 

try to have him break it down to specific instances where 

somebody told him or, you know, who was that person and was it 

what was that occasion, I mean, you can try to do that, but 

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you are going to end up in a situation where he is just going 

to say, you know, everybody knew. 

And so I think there are certain things that if they are 

just so well-known among a certain group that when you try to 

ask somebody to articulate, you know, a point in time or a 

person or whatever that they are not going to be able to do 

it, or if it will become to the point that he would just start 

ticking off conversations he had. And that is the nature of 

his testimony. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor -- 

MR. JONAS: If I may add, first of all, in our 

experience this is very common. A lot of Palestinians that we 

have spoken to have similar statements that everybody knew. I 

know that doesn't get around the rules of evidence. I 

believe, though, and I have to check some case law because I 

did do research on this, that I think it comes under opinion; 

that, you know, he can say "in my opinion," blah, blah, blah. 

I think that is proper. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, he is not an expert. He -- 

THE COURT: You don't have to be an expert to give 

an opinion. 

MR. CLINE: But it has to be based on personal 

perception, and what he is basing it on is not personal 

perception of something a Defendant told him or being, you 

know, together in a Hamas event or something like that. What 

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he is basing it on is hearsay. He is basing it on what other 

people told him.

THE COURT: There is Fifth Circuit law that at some 

point--and this is nebulous, and that is the problem--that at 

some point, just a general knowledge, a common knowledge that 

something is well-known isn't hearsay. Somebody can testify 

and know this just because "I know it. It is common 

knowledge." Now, it is nebulous and they have approved that 

and there is Fifth Circuit law on that. 

The problem that comes at what point -- Where I was going 

is you probably need to lay a predicate anyway. How much 

longer do you have on your direct? 

MR. JACKS: Maybe an hour.

THE COURT: So we are going to be here awhile. Lay 

a predicate on how he knows. And if it is, "Well, I read the 

newspaper," or "one person told me," that probably is going to 

be hearsay. That is hearsay. 

If you can lay this predicate that it was general 

knowledge, common knowledge, and ask him, without getting into 

conversations how he knew, meetings or whatever, I think that 

will get him there. But I think you have to lay that 

predicate, because he has also shown on at least that one 

question where it just came the from the media. That is not 

going to get you there. Or if one person told him one or two 

times, that is probably not going to get him there either. 

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That is not general or common knowledge. 

That is about the best I can do in terms of that because 

it is a nebulous area.

MR. CLINE: We will object question by question. 

The only thing I want to add, and I know Your Honor knows this 

already, but this is a cooperating witness who of course has 

an incentive to try to please the Government. And this is the 

most important issue in the case, and so we ask the Court to 

be particularly -- 

THE COURT: I understand. Just make sure you lay 

your predicate on these questions where you are talking about 

knowing something. 

MR. JACKS: Mr. Cline, you said something about "We 

will object question by question."

MR. CLINE: We will object as we go along when you 

attempt to elicit this type of evidence.

MR. JACKS: Okay. 

MR. WESTFALL: Or when you lead, Mr. Jacks.

MS. CADEDDU: I was going to say, I have a general 

objection, especially with this witness. We will object to 

leading.

THE COURT: I don't mind a little leading and 

background leading. But when you get down to the issues that 

are really in the case, that needs to come from the witness, 

so watch that.

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MR. JACKS: Your Honor, There is some degree of 

being a hostile witness.

THE COURT: I saw that, certainly. I understand 

that. But there is still some areas where you are just 

putting it out there for him. If he begins to be hostile, you 

can do something else. But I think initially you just need to 

make sure on those areas that you let it come from the 

witness.

MR. JONAS: If I can just Quickly raise another 

matter, just housekeeping on that issue with the CIA. Just to 

let you know, we have that index you want. There is a 

question of classification of it, and I am trying to resolve 

whether it is top secret. I have spoken to Erin Hogarty. I 

am still waiting for some more information. If it is top 

secret, I can give it to Your Honor. If it is not, Ms. 

Hogarty will have to give it to Your Honor next week before 

they come down with the laptop. 

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DRATEL: Has the Court received the 302 on this 

redaction issue? 

THE COURT: I had not, unless that is part of the 

302s you gave me previously. 

MR. DRATEL: The redaction redaction? 

MR. JACKS: No. Some of these were actually already 

provided, but -- 

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MR. DRATEL: I don't think this one is. 

MR. JACKS: Which one?

THE COURT: The one we discussed last night. 

MR. JACKS: I will provide that to the Court and an 

explanation. Whenever you want me to do that I will give that 

to you.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Essentially it was redacted because it 

relates to a different investigation, and that person's name 

is included in that investigation. That is the reason that 

name was redacted. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. DRATEL: We are two and a half years down the 

road from the statement itself, so I don't know whether that 

is still an issue in terms of whether that requires some 

redaction or not. But it is up to the Court to look at it.

THE COURT: And it depends of course on the 

information they give me. If they tell me there is still an 

ongoing investigation, there is an ongoing investigation. 

Investigations can go on for years. This case is a prime 

example. 

And so that is what they are telling you is that he is 

still the subject of an ongoing -- 

MR. JACKS: Well, he is involved in it. I don't 

know if he can be considered a subject, but he may a source in 

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that. 

MR. DRATEL: I think the Court would probably still 

have to do a Roviaro type analysis if it is exculpatory.

MS. HOLLANDER: We do need you to look at that.

THE COURT: Just at some point provide that 

information and I will take a look at it. 

MR. DRATEL: It is March 13th, 2006, page 6. 

MR. WESTFALL: And I am not going to take up the 

Court's time right now unless you want to, but there is an 

issue with some exhibits that were provided yesterday that 

weren't on the list. I spoke with Mr. Jonas about it. I am 

not sure we are going to be able to work it out. But it would 

be important if we can't to speak with you today, because it 

is going to affect both of our trial strategy next week.

THE COURT: Who is it coming in? 

MR. JONAS: Agent Burns. Major Lior is next and 

Agent Burns. 

MR. WESTFALL: Do you want to do it right now? 

THE COURT: No, let's wait. Just remind me at the 

lunch break or some break. Well, there is not a lunch break. 

But at 1:00. I don't need to take care of my thing until an 

hour or so later.

MR. JONAS: Just a scheduling issue. Major Lior, he 

needs to get on Monday morning because his people are leaving 

Monday afternoon, and then Agent Burns will go after that. 

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If it happens that we finish with this witness at some 

point today, and I don't know if that is going to happen or 

not, can we just break for the day and we can start fresh. 

THE COURT: That occurred to me Monday after we left 

so late, I was thinking if this guy doesn't get through the 

day, then we didn't need to work late last night.

MS. HOLLANDER: If we don't, we will just put him 

off until after Lior but not until after Burns? 

MR. JONAS: Correct. If we don't finish with this 

witness today, we will start with Lior Monday morning and then 

back with this witness.

MR. WESTFALL: That is an Interesting contrast.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, I think Ms. Shapiro and I 

are going to be handling Major Lior, and there are a number of 

exhibits that are going to come through Major Lior that I am 

going to have objections to.

THE COURT: Can you get those -- You have already 

filed a list -- 

MS. SHAPIRO: I have given a list to Defense 

counsel, and I provided Jennifer with a binder of the hard 

copies. 

THE COURT: Can you get those objections in today? 

MS. MORENO: Yes. And would the Court like it in 

email form?

THE COURT: It doesn't matter. If you get it to 

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Jennifer, she will get it to me.

MR. CLINE: Can I interrupt just a second? You 

filed a motion.

MS. SHAPIRO: I was just going to say, I am having 

somebody pull -- I think there are three or four motions on 

this subject that are out there, and I am having her pull 

those.

MS. MORENO: And we filed a motion.

MS. SHAPIRO: They filed motions. We filed motions. 

I have a motion that incorporates all the prior motions by ECF 

number, and I am having those collected so that I can provide 

them to Your Honor so you will know the certain universe of 

the argument out there.

THE COURT: I will have it all there at once.

MR. CLINE: I think there is actually a government 

motion filed back in maybe May sometime pending basically to 

adopt Judge Fish's ruling on the Government of Israel 

documents, which is addressed to these Lior documents. We 

filed an opposition to that. You probably filed a reply. I 

can't recall. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. And it is that motion that then 

incorporates and lists the prior motions that were filed on 

that subject in the last trial.

MS. MORENO: So I think the best way for our side to 

handle this is also to perhaps send you once again, so you can 

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just see the motion that we filed, which we filed one motion 

on all these documents. And if you would allow us time to 

argue some of those exhibits, we would greatly appreciate it, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: This is for Major Lior? 

MS. MORENO: This is just for Major Lior.

THE COURT: So we need to be here early Monday 

morning.

MS. MORENO: I think that would be best, giving his 

confined schedule.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MS. MORENO: At least Ms. Shapiro and I. 

MR. JONAS: There was one other thing, and I drew a 

blank.

THE COURT: We have one thing to take up. That is 

what I was told. 

MR. JONAS: I am going to step out of the courtroom 

when we start this morning to prepare. 

MR. JACKS: This witness Mr. Shorbagi is in the 

witness protection program in custody, and that requires a lot 

of manpower. There is a lot of Marshals, a lot of security. 

And if as we get close today, if we are close to finishing 

him, if the Court would at least consider the possibility of 

going a little bit longer just to finish him. And I 

understand if you have a commitment.

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THE COURT: I do, but I have some time. I don't 

need to leave right at 1:00. My main concern is the jury. We 

are not going to take a lunch break. But we can go certainly 

15, 20, 30 minutes. It is not a problem. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I guess my concern is that if we are 

doing a cross and the jury has been sitting here without lunch 

and it is 1:30, it is kind of not fair.

THE COURT: It depends on how much longer you have 

to go. If we can do it 15 to 30 minutes, we can do it. If we 

can't, we can't. 

MS. MORENO: I can't do cross on an empty stomach.

THE COURT: You just need to go first.

MS. MORENO: I am going first.

THE COURT: You will probably be all right. It is 

the last ones that will be in trouble. 

And your redirect, if you have an hour to go, and it is 

already almost 9:30.

MR. CLINE: And that is a Jim Jacks hour.

THE COURT: Exactly, yes. We have seen him in 

action the last few weeks. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I don't think we are going to get 

there. 

THE COURT: We will deal with that then.

MS. CADEDDU: And Judge, anymore more than half an 

hour or so --

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THE COURT: No. I have got to get going.

MS. CADEDDU: I have made commitments with my family 

to take my husband to the airport. They are leaving for 

vacation without me. 

THE COURT: All right. We will give it a half an 

hour at the most, and then we will break. I wouldn't want to 

keep the jury any longer than that when We are not going to 

have lunch. 

(The following was had in open court.) 

THE COURT: Everybody ready for the jury? 

Go ahead and bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed.

Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Mr. Shorbagi, yesterday at the end of the 

day you had identified a videotape as a videotape of a MAYA 

convention in Oklahoma City. Do you recall viewing that 

videotape?

A. Correct.

Q. And who were some of the persons that you saw on that 

videotape that you identified?

A. You mean the speakers? 

Q. Yes, the speakers. 

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A. I identified Mr. Kamal Hilbawi, Khalid Mishal.

Q. That is fine. And I asked you yesterday if Khalid Mishal 

was or had a position in Hamas at that time, and let me ask 

you the question again. 

Well, let me back up. Had you ever seen or heard of 

Khalid Mishal before December of 1992 in Oklahoma City? 

A. No, sir.

Q. And did you later learn whether or not he had a position 

in Hamas?

A. Correct.

Q. And what position in Hamas did he hold -- First, let me 

just ask this. When you learned about his position in Hamas, 

did you -- did the position have a title at the time?

A. No. When I met him later on in '94, he was introduced as 

one of Hamas' leaders, the political wing of Hamas.

Q. After this -- Excuse me. Strike that, please. You 

described what goes on at these conventions. Do you recall 

that?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And I believe you said that there were speeches and 

dinners and entertainment. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Would there be what some people call break-out groups? 

A. Correct.

Q. And when you -- When a person that is attending these 

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conventions would get there, would there be an agenda or a 

schedule showing what events are going to be happening during 

the convention?

A. You mean in the general convention? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Yes, sir. There will be a program given out.

Q. And did you attend those different events? Would you go 

to break-out groups or go to the speeches in the big 

auditorium?

A. Yes. Some of them I will attend. Right.

Q. Were there any meetings that were not on the agenda?

A. Correct.

Q. And did you attend those meetings?

A. Correct.

Q. Or meeting, I should say. 

MR. DRATEL: Could we get a time frame, Your Honor? 

MR. JACKS: We are still talking about the December 

1992 MAYA convention.

THE COURT: All right. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And how did you learn about this meeting 

that was not on the agenda?

A. I was attending the Oklahoma City conference, the MAYA 

conference in '92, and I was invited to a closed meeting by a 

friend of mine from Houston, Jamil Dalu, and I attended this 

meeting.

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Q. Is this Jamil Dalu a person you testified about 

yesterday?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And before, when he invited you to that meeting, did he 

tell you what was going to be the nature or subject matter of 

that meeting?

A. The thing that he told me about, there will be a meeting 

for individuals, a closed meeting, and it will be about Hamas 

from inside, meaning from Hamas inside the territory.

Q. And was this -- The MAYA convention in 1992 that we are 

talking about, where was it held in Oklahoma City? What type 

of facility was it at?

A. You mean the convention? 

Q. Yes. 

A. The convention, they usually rent like two or three big 

hotels, like the Hyatt, Marriott, and they are also in the 

convention center.

Q. All right. So some type of auditorium or convention 

center in Oklahoma City?

A. Correct.

Q. And this closed meeting, where was it held in relation to 

the other parts of the convention?

A. It was held inside one of the rooms in one of the hotels.

Q. And when you referred to it as a closed meeting, what do 

you mean by that?

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A. Only by invitation. It is not like publicly announced.

Q. About how many persons were in this closed meeting?

A. About 150.

Q. And were any Hamas leaders in this meeting?

A. In 1992, you mean the speaker or --

Q. The speakers. We will start with the speakers. 

A. The speaker was Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. Were there any other Hamas leaders that spoke in that 

meeting?

A. No, just Mousa Abu Marzook was the main speaker.

Q. And was Khalid Mishal in that meeting?

A. '92? 

Q. Yes. Did he go in that meeting?

A. I don't remember seeing him in that meeting.

Q. Did any of the Defendants, were they in attendance at 

that meeting?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. Can you name those?

A. I remember seeing Ghassan Elashi, Shukri Abu Baker, 

Mohammad El-Mezain others like Abdel Haleem Ashqar and so on, 

I saw them in that meeting.

Q. But as to the Defendants, just those three that you 

named, Defendants in this case?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And you said Mousa Abu Marzook was the speaker?

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A. Correct.

Q. Or the person that spoke in the meeting?

A. Correct.

Q. What was his topic? What did he talk about?

A. He talked about Hamas. Do you want me to tell you what 

the --

Q. Just generally what he talked about. 

A. He talked really how Hamas is becoming a major player in 

the Middle East, because Hamas started in '87. It started on 

the throwing of stones against the Israeli occupation. Now we 

are talking about four years after the start of the Intifada, 

so it is not going to be just fighting the Israelis in the 

street, but Hamas was becoming a major player in the politics 

of the Middle East. And to be a major player in the politics 

of the Middle East, and being a Palestinian, you have got to 

do something big when it comes to the Israeli occupation. So 

he used the word that Hamas will start creating things or 

creating facts on the ground by creating activities on the 

ground in the occupied territories.

Q. And what, if anything -- Was there anything conveyed or 

what was expected of these people in this meeting or in this 

group, was there anything conveyed to them about what their 

role was to be or why they were being called into this 

meeting?

A. The main role is really as Palestinians and as concerned 

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to help the role of Hamas to grow up to be a major political 

player in the Middle East.

Q. Did he say whether or not Hamas -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor; leading. 

THE COURT: Well, he hasn't asked the question yet. 

Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Did he say whether or not Hamas needed 

anything from the people in that room?

A. There was no specifics really. It was a general talk. 

That was the year '92. There were not specifics like, "What 

we need to do." Just like, "We need to really help Hamas to 

become bigger in the Middle East."

Q. At that Oklahoma City convention, you said that was in 

December of 1992. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And had anything happened that affected Hamas just prior 

to that meeting or that convention taking place?

A. Correct.

Q. What was it?

A. It was the Israelis deporting 415 of the prominent 

figures of the Palestinian people to south Lebanon.

Q. Was that a topic -- First of all, was that a topic in the 

convention in the big room in the auditorium?

A. Yes, sir, it was.

Q. Was it a topic and was it discussed in the closed meeting 

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that you attended?

A. Correct.

Q. And was there anything discussed in that closed meeting 

about what would be done or needed to be done with regard to 

those deportees?

A. I don't really remember that he discussed the deportees. 

But the statement that he said that surely Israel did the 

favor to Hamas by bringing Hamas from being local in the 

occupied territories to be an international organization that 

everybody knows about Hamas now by Israel deporting these 

figures to south Lebanon.

Q. That it raised their prominence or notoriety?

A. It raised their fame and raised their name in the 

international community.

Q. Was he saying that as if it was a good thing?

A. Not like in the matter -- It is a bad thing that people 

were taken out of their homes and deported, but in the matter 

of international publicity, that Hamas' name is becoming very 

well-known in the war now because of the deportees issues.

Q. You testified yesterday about -- I believe you were 

testifying about the leaflets that would come from Hamas in 

the territories to IAP in Richardson and then be distributed, 

and you said you received those leaflets in the mail. Do you 

recall that testimony?

A. Correct, yes.

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Q. You testified about, as an example, that in those 

communiques or leaflets, one example of information was 

stories of Israeli soldiers or policemen that had been 

kidnapped and eventually killed. 

A. Correct.

Q. And those incidents that you testified about, the 

kidnapping and killing of the Israeli soldier or police 

officer -- 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, may I have a continuing 

objection based on my earlier objection on this type of 

testimony? 

THE COURT: You may have that, yes. 

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What was the proximity of those 

kidnappings to the deportation in time? Were they close in 

time?

A. Now, the things I testified about yesterday, that was in 

1988, the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers Ilan Sa'adon 

and Avi Sasportas, to release Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. But now in 

1992 there was another attempt to secure the release of Sheikh 

Yassin by kidnapping an Israeli officer, Nassim Tulidano 

(phonetic), and the Israeli Government did not cooperate with 

the kidnappers for the release of Sheikh Yassin, so he was 

killed. And that time the prime minister was Yitzhak Rabin, 

so he made a decision to gather the leaders of Hamas and the 

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Islamic Jihad in the occupied territories and deport them to 

south Lebanon.

Q. You made reference to an organization called Islamic 

Jihad. 

A. Correct.

Q. What is the full name that that organization goes by?

A. I think that is the full name, Islamic jihad in 

Palestine.

Q. All right. And is it also a designated terrorist group?

A. By the U.S. Department of State, yes, sir. 

MR. DRATEL: Can we get a time frame on that, Your 

Honor? 

MR. JACKS: We are still talking December 1992, Your 

Honor.

MR. DRATEL: I mean of the designated terrorist 

group. 

THE COURT: Counsel, you may inquire about that on 

cross examination.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) When you attended the 1992 Oklahoma City 

convention, you were still living in Houston. Is that 

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And in that videotape that we saw yesterday, you 

identified a man named Samir Khatib. Is that correct?

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A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And in the video we saw yesterday, what was going on with 

him -- In that video what had he done or what was going on 

with him during the time that that video was on him, the 

camera was on him?

A. As I said, Samir Khatib was a very religious man. He 

passed away last year. And he was also blessed by money. He 

was a rich man. And being religious, he likes to donate 

money. So at that time in Oklahoma City when there was a call 

for the nation to help the families of the deportees, he 

donated $50,000 for the cause of the deportees' families.

Q. And at that 1992 Oklahoma City convention, did you meet 

Samir Khatib at that convention?

A. Yeah, I meat him later on after I was introduced to him 

by another friend that was working with Samir Khatib, and his 

name is Ahmad Harara. I was introduced to Samir Khatib by 

that friend.

Q. For the court reporter's benefit, just the person that 

introduced you to Samir Khatib was Ahmed?

A. Harara, H-A-R-A-R-A.

Q. All right. And what was the connection between Ahmed 

Harara and Samir Khatib?

A. He was working for Samir Khatib's company.

Q. And where was that located?

A. In Rome, Georgia.

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Q. And did you and Ahmed Harara discuss Samir Khatib and his 

company?

A. Yes, we did. Right.

Q. And what did you -- Specifically did you discuss anything 

about you and Samir Khatib's company?

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection; hearsay. Hearsay as to 

both. 

THE COURT: Why is that not hearsay, counsel? Are 

you seeking to get into the conversation? 

MR. JACKS: Well, it is to explain what he did after 

this.

THE COURT: Well, I will let him answer that yes or 

no, and then you can get into what he did. Did you have that 

conversation? Go ahead and answer.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. And did Mr. Khatib ask you or 

invite you to go to work for Samir Khatib's company. I am 

sorry. Mr. Harara. 

MS. MORENO: Objection; hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. We talked about the Alexandria 

Carpet, it is a big company, it is a nice company in the city 

of Rome. And he talked to me about if I am willing to come 

down to Rome and work for the company, yes.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What was your answer at that time?

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A. My answer was not really yes or no; just like, "Let me 

think about it and I will see." So I didn't give him yes. I 

told him "Okay, maybe." But my answer was no.

Q. Did the topic come up again or were you approached again 

about doing that?

A. Yes. When I went back to Houston I got a phone call from 

him again.

Q. And him being?

A. Ahmed Harara. 

Q. Okay.

A. Offering me the job. But I did not really accept the job 

because Ahmed Harara was a regular employee working for the 

company, so I said in order for me to accept the job it has to 

come from the one in charge the company. So the next day I 

get a call from Nassim Khatib, who is a brother of Samir 

Khatib, who was a physician, who was overseeing the company.

Q. Would you spell his name, please, for the court reporter?

A. N-A-S-S-I-M.

Q. And Khatib is?

A. K-H-A-T-I-B.

Q. All right. So is he the brother of Samir Khatib?

A. He is the brother of Samir Khatib. 

Q. Samir Khatib is the man that we saw in the video in the 

Afghan-type clothing. Is that correct?

A. Right.

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Q. All right. 

A. Now let me just clarify one thing here, if you don't 

mind. Samir Khatib is, as I said, he is like very genius in 

business, but also he diagnosed with manic depression.

Q. We will come to that. 

A. All right.

Q. Samir Khatib, what nationality is he?

A. He is from the West Bank, but he is I think a naturalized 

U.S. citizen.

Q. He is deceased now, though. Correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. But he is Palestinian by birth?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And did you end up going to work for Alexandria Carpet?

A. Correct. I accepted the job. I went there, yes.

Q. When did you go there and start working?

A. In late March '93.

Q. And this is in Rome, Georgia. Correct?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. What was your job to be when you went to work for them?

A. Oversee the shipping overseas.

Q. Shipping?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you said you worked there until 2006?

A. Correct, yes.

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Q. And there was a reference in that video to a donation 

from the Rome mosque. Do you recall that?

A. Correct.

Q. And where was the Rome mosque the Rome, Georgia mosque in 

Rome, Georgia? Where was it located?

A. It was across from -- Like there is the company, the 

office of Alexandria, and then the parking lot, and then the 

Khatib family bought two houses down the road, and one of the 

houses they use it as -- they were using it as a mosque.

Q. All right. So it was a converted house?

A. Correct.

Q. And what -- Did you have any connection or develop a 

connection to that mosque?

A. Now, when I went there in '93, Ahmed Harara was the emam 

of the mosque. He left Rome in late '93, I think November 

'93, to Chicago. He got another job in Chicago. So I became 

the emam of that mosque until I was arrested.

Q. And as the emam, what were your responsibilities?

A. The Juma prayer, the Friday sermon, we had weekend school 

Saturday and Sunday, and different activities during Ramadan, 

like iftar, breaking fasting during Ramadan, and also 

collecting zakat after the end of Ramadan, days of Ramadan, 

and different activities.

Q. All right. And did you actually -- Were you responsible 

for delivering sermons during the Friday sessions?

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A. Yeah, I was the only one who was giving the sermon on 

Fridays, yes, sir.

Q. And how long after you moved to Rome, Georgia did you 

become -- How long afterwards was it that you became the emam 

when Ahmed Harara left?

A. Actually when Ahmed Harara was there in March, April, and 

May, he asked me start helping him in giving the sermons, so I 

started giving sermons in May and June, but I was not 

considered the emam until he left, so probably I can say 

November of '93.

Q. And while you were there, you said that one of the 

responsibilities of the emam was to collect zakat or 

donations. Is that correct?

A. Correct. Now, there is like zakat, which is the 2.5 of 

the surplus of the wealth, which is an obligation, and there 

is a donation which is something that is, like, up to you. 

You give it up.

Q. They are separate?

A. Zakat is an obligation. It is 2.5 of the surplus of the 

wealth you have, but donation is something that if you are 

willing to give, giving extra.

Q. All right. Zakat, is it similar to tithing in other 

religions?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. Did you collect funds at the mosque that were 

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then forwarded to the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Correct.

Q. And how often would that be done from the persons 

attending the mosque?

A. Okay. Now, on a very regular basis at the end of 

Ramadan, because Ramadan is a fasting month, but before the 

end of Ramadan you must give away some money to clarify or 

purify your fasting, so that was an annual thing that by the 

end of the last two days of Ramadan I start collecting the 

Ramadan zakat. 

And other occasions if there is other things happening in 

the West Bank and Gaza, like destruction of homes and so on, I 

will call for the people to give -- to donate money different 

than the zakat, to donate some money. Now, this is No. 2. 

No. 3 there is zakat general, not Ramadan zakat, zakat 

general, I used to consult with people who worked there and 

have money that do the calculation for their zakat, and I will 

collect their zakat, so all these three parts I will send to 

the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And was that something that was being done by Ahmed 

Harara before you became the emam?

A. Not really on this basis.

Q. And what, if any, discussions -- Your action of sending 

it to the Holy Land Foundation, did the Holy Land Foundation 

have anything to do with that decision to send those donations 

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to the Holy Land Foundation?

MR. DRATEL: Object to the form of the question, 

Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Overrule that. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I am sorry. I didn't understand the 

question. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. When you would send what 

money you took in, and for whatever reason, and send it to the 

Holy Land Foundation, was that -- had that been discussed with 

the Holy Land Foundation or its representatives before you did 

that?

A. Right. Yes. Yes.

Q. And who did you have those discussions with?

A. My main contact really was with the Holy Land Foundation 

to Haitham and Mohammad El-Mezain, but mainly Haitham because 

Haitham was in the office of the Holy Land Foundation in 

Dallas here.

Q. And you are referring to Haitham Maghawri?

A. Correct.

Q. I want to go back to the time period when you were in 

Houston. When you had moved from Oklahoma and moved to 

Houston, was it your testimony that in Houston you did 

volunteer work for MAYA and volunteer work for the IAP?

A. Correct.

Q. And I asked you yesterday if the IAP was a part of Hamas 

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and do you recall what your answer was yesterday?

A. I said no.

Q. And what were -- When you said no, what time period were 

you thinking about?

A. Okay. Now, when you asked me yesterday about IAP in 

1986, yes, I did volunteer work for IAP in 1986. And you said 

IAP and Hamas, my answer was no because there was no Hamas in 

'86.

Q. All right. And did IAP ever become a part of Hamas?

A. After that, yeah, IAP was completely concerned about 

Hamas, and all of the work of IAP was for Hamas.

Q. Let me ask you the same question about the Occupied Land 

Fund or the Holy Land Foundation. Was it a part of Hamas?

A. Now, later on I can say yeah, but in '92 -- Are you 

talking about '92, or are you talking about in general now? 

Q. I am talking about in '90, '91, '92, in your experience 

is -- 

MR. DRATEL: Just object on basis that we discussed 

before.

THE COURT: Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: I am sorry? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) In 1990, '91, and '92, did you have 

contact or dealings with the Occupied Land Fund or the Holy 

Land Foundation?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

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Q. And in '90 or '91, what was the nature of your contact 

that you would have with the Occupied Land Fund, or anybody 

that worked for it, or the Holy Land Foundation as it came to 

be known?

A. Help them to collect money.

Q. And who were they collecting money for?

MR. DRATEL: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: The general knowledge that everybody 

knows that you collect money -- 

MS. MORENO: Objection, Your Honor; no foundation.

THE COURT: Do you want to lay a predicate for that 

knowledge, counsel? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Let me walk you through this, sir. With 

regard to your knowledge about the Occupied Land Fund or the 

Holy Land Foundation, whichever time period applies, what was 

the basis of your knowledge about their relationship to Hamas?

A. Okay. Listen. In the occupied territories, in the West 

Bank and Gaza, there are two major groups there, you are 

talking about '88, '89, '90, '91, Hamas and Fatah. Hamas has 

its own organizations or institutions or functions, societies. 

Fatah has its own functions.

Q. Let me just stop you for clarification. You are saying 

Fatah, F-A-T-A-H?

A. Correct.

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Q. And that is a party. Is that correct? A political 

party?

A. It is not really just a political party. It is just like 

Hamas. It is also a struggle movement.

Q. And is there a connection between Fatah and the PLO, the 

Palestine Liberation Organization?

A. Right. PLO consists of like 13 organizations, but the 

main one that controlled PLO, like 99.9 percent of the PLO was 

controlled by Fatah that was controlled by the late Yasser 

Arafat.

Q. So you are describing in the territories there are two 

main organizations. Is that what you said?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And with regard -- To bring that back to the Occupied 

Land Fund, what was -- Did you have conversations with other 

persons similarly situated to you, other Palestinians, other 

Palestinians that were still living in the territories? 

Let me just take it one step at a time. During this time 

period we are talking about, the late '80s and the early '90s, 

did you have conversations with Palestinians still living in 

the territories? 

THE COURT: Counsel, ask him who he had 

conversations with, rather than leading. Ask him who he had 

conversations with about it.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. Who would you talk to during 

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this time period?

A. My family members.

Q. What about in the United States, who would you talk to 

about these issues?

A. My friends.

Q. And were they similarly situated to you? Were they 

similarly situated to you? Were they Palestinians?

A. Correct. I am sorry. Yes.

Q. And were they living in the United States?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And were they persons that would go to these -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I object to leading.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Were they persons that would go to these 

MAYA conventions?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Would they go to these -- Were they individuals that 

would go to these IAP conventions and festivals?

A. They were the same stature as mine. They are 

Palestinians, number one, from the occupied territories; they 

are in the United States; and number three, they are very 

concerned about the situation there, yes.

Q. Were they supporters of Hamas, as you were?

A. A number were supporters of Hamas, yes.

Q. And your information or your answering any relationship 

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between Hamas and the Holy Land Foundation or the Occupied 

Land Fund, without saying what that information was, where did 

that come from?

A. It was, as I said, it was known that -- 

MR. DRATEL: We object again, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I am from the city of Khan Yunis.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Let me ask you to slow down just a little 

bit so the court reporter can keep up with you. 

A. Okay. As I said, even when I was there I was also 

involved in too many activities inside the occupied 

territories before I came to the United States. So one of the 

known figures in the city of Khan Yunis is Ahmed Bhar, 

A-H-M-E-D B-H-A-R. And he was a very known person that is 

fighting the Israelis, he went to jail several times, and he 

is very well-known Muslim figure or Islamist figure in the 

city of Khan Yunis. So you know that the money is going to 

Ahmed Bhar. And now in the '80s there was no Hamas, but after 

that when Hamas was founded, he was one of the leaders of 

Hamas, you know the money is going to Ahmed Bhar going to 

Hamas.

MR. DRATEL: I object, Your Honor, on the same 

grounds.

THE COURT: Overruled. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. I want you to give us more 

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examples and explain to the jury how it is that you knew these 

things that you are talking about. 

A. Okay. Again, as I said, I was involved in activities 

there, so one of the activities I was involved in is in what 

we called the Islamic Compound in the city of Khan Yunis.

Q. I am sorry. Just -- Islamic what?

A. Compound.

Q. Compound.

A. Compound. I am sorry.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I am confused. Can we 

have a date now? 

THE COURT: Can you establish a time frame? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Sir, you just said that you were involved 

with the Islamic Compound. 

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. What time period or how old were you at the time?

A. I was about 15 and 16 years old.

Q. So about what year would that have been?

A. It will be in '79, '80, '81, '82.

Q. All right. So go ahead and resume your answer about 

explaining how it is that you have come to this answer about 

the connection, if any, between the Occupied Land Fund and 

Hamas. 

A. Okay. Again, as I said, this Islamic Compound, I don't 

know how you call it, now, it has like a sports center, it has 

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kindergarten, it has school and so on. There was no Hamas but 

the idea was the Islamic movement, how to teach the kids to be 

a Muslim, to be a good Muslim, and to be also concerned about 

Palestine. So the money used to come to the Islamic Compound 

through the Islamic Society, another organization, to the 

Islamic University in Gaza. 

So these kind of places that you know that they were 

founded by the Islamic movement in the occupied territories by 

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and others, and they follow the Muslim 

Brotherhood ideology. And later on Hamas came to exist by 

these people.

Q. And how does that explain your answer about the Occupied 

Land Fund and its connection? What was the connection between 

the Occupied Land Fund and Islamic Compound? What 

relationship did they have?

A. They are the same. The money goes from the Occupied Land 

Fund to these organizations.

Q. And how do you know that or how did you learn that? How 

were you made aware of that?

A. Because I heard that from, like whenever we collect a 

donation, you want to know where is this donation going to, 

because, like I said, you have two major groups there, Fatah 

and Hamas, and the money is going to these organizations, the 

Islamic Compound, Islamic University Islamic Society Ahmed 

Bhar, Ahmed Nimer, and so on.

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Q. And let me just take this a step at a time. Ahmed Bhar, 

is that the person you testified about just a moment ago?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And you said Ahmed Nimer. 

A. Correct.

Q. And who is Ahmed Nimer as you are describing him?

A. That is the when I grow up and learning from him and 

teaching us the Islamic Compound in Khan Yunis.

Q. Did he have a connection to Hamas?

A. Later on he was one of the leaders, actually not one. He 

is the main leader of Hamas in Khan Yunis, yes, sir.

Q. And again, to take it back to the Occupied Land Fund or 

the Holy Land Foundation, how did you know -- how was it 

conveyed to you that the Occupied Land Fund or the Holy Land 

Foundation was sending money to these organizations?

A. I heard that.

Q. From who?

A. From Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And anybody else?

A. You know, to be honest, during like 1988, '89, '90, '91, 

when you mentioned the Occupied Land Fund or the Holy Land 

Foundation, up until probably '92, '93, it equals Mohammad 

El-Mezain. Mohammad El-Mezain equals Occupied Land Fund. So 

he was the main person in that organization.

Q. And what about the persons that would have been below him 

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but connected to the Occupied Land Fund? Who were those 

persons?

A. To be honest, as I said, like the only name I knew when 

it was Occupied Land Fund was Mohammad El-Mezain. But you 

mean in the United States. Right? 

Q. Yes. 

A. There were, like as I said, like other names, Mousa Abu 

Marzook, and so on, but their names were not connected to the 

Occupied Land Fund. The Occupied Land Fund mainly was 

Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And let's move to the time when it was called the Holy 

Land Foundation. Did you later learn of other officials that 

were in charge of the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Who were those officials?

A. Now, later on Shukri Abu Baker's name came into the 

picture. Haitham's name came into the picture also.

Q. And was there occasion, did you ever have contact with 

Ghassan Elashi? I am talking about ever, later on?

A. Oh, yes, yes, yes, sir.

Q. And was that in connection with any organization?

A. Yes. Ghassan also -- I remember Ghassan came into Rome 

with Mohammad El-Mezain I knew Ghassan before he came into 

Rome, but Ghassan is like a business serious man, so I never 

had any kind of relationship with him other than the time he 

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came in to visit Rome with Mohammad El-Mezain talking about 

donation for the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And was he -- Had he come to Rome on business for the 

Holy Land Foundation?

A. Not business; donation for the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Okay. All right. During the time period that you were 

in Rome, Georgia, you said that Ahmed Harara had left this 

company that you worked for. Is that correct?

A. Correct; late '83. '93, I am sorry.

Q. And would you tell us the name of the company again?

A. Alexandria Carpet.

Q. What did that company do, just briefly?

A. This company used to manufacture carpet on a commission 

basis. They have salespeople in the Middle East, major Arab 

gulf countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab 

Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, so those salespeople will send 

orders to the office in Rome. Based on the orders, we will 

manufacture a placed order with the carpet manufacturers, 

buying the raw material, which is the fiber, spin it, tuft it, 

dye it, finish, and ship it.

Q. Where were most of the customers for Alexandria Carpets 

located?

A. Mainly it was Saudi Arabia.

Q. And was it a successful company?

A. Yes, sir.

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Q. This man that you have told us about, Samir Khatib, you 

said that he was rich. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And did the fact that he was wealthy, did people ask him 

for donations?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And were you ever a part or involved in circumstances 

when people would come and seek money from Samir Khatib?

A. Yes, sir. Actually they wouldn't come without consulting 

me first.

Q. And you said that Samir Khatib, I believe you testified 

earlier that he had mental health issues?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. What was his mental health condition?

A. Manic depression.

Q. And how did that manifest itself? What would happen when 

he would have episodes of this condition?

A. Samir's era during the year moves from the mania, which 

is mania, to depressed. When he is manic -- I was around him 

most of the time. Really when he was manic and when he was 

depressed, I was very, very close to him. So when he was 

manic, he could say three, four, five days without sleeping, 

and then I will be around him and then I will break down and 

sleep, and then he will be just running around because of the 

medication that he takes. And his appetite for food is like 

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overwhelmed. So he needs a person around him, because he will 

think himself at that time he is the king of the world, so he 

needs a person around him to being humble with him and take 

him in a nice way in order to comfort him and calm him down. 

Now, he found that person in myself, so we established that 

strong relationship there.

Now, the other period -- This period could stay like two 

or three months, because he will have too many fights within 

the family because of that period of him being manic, within 

his own family, like his wife, kids, and brother, and so on. 

So I will be always stepping in there to calm these disputes. 

The other period that he will come into is the depression 

area. The depression he could stay sleeping for almost maybe 

two months, just literally laying down in the bed and just 

like drinking milk with coffee or eating a banana or apple. 

So his appetite for food will be down.

Q. Let me stop you and just focus my question. Were there 

ever occasions when he would be in his manic state when people 

would approach him for money?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And when that would happen, what kind of actions or what 

would he do during those times if he was approached for money 

when he was in a manic state?

A. He will give money. I remember one time that he was 

willing to give a million dollars for the Holy Land 

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Foundation.

Q. And was that something that happened more than once, when 

he would be asked for money, he would be in a manic state and 

he would pledge or give a large sum of money? Did that happen 

more than once?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When you were in Rome, Georgia did you continue to travel 

to these MAYA conventions that would take place?

A. Correct.

Q. And with regard to these MAYA conventions, did IAP take 

part in the MAYA conventions or have some association during 

these MAYA conventions?

A. The IAP usually had a day within the MAYA convention 

called the Day of Palestine.

Q. And just explain what you mean by that, when they had a 

day, or a Palestine Day. What would go on and --

A. That day will be mainly, like either from the morning 

till the night ends we will start with lectures about 

Palestine, tapes showing about Palestine, and there will be 

like an expo about things -- pictures about the Palestinian 

uprising and Palestinian destruction and so on. And at night 

there will be the entertainment by The Rock band, and then 

there will be collection of money.

Q. And what organization was responsible for in charge of 

the collection of money?

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A. The Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And is it your testimony that the IAP was -- 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, it is leading. 

THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) All right. Let me strike that. Did 

there ever come a time that the MAYA and IAP programs were 

separated?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And about when did that happen?

A. The rift really start after the Gulf War, the first Gulf 

War after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. 

Q. I am sorry. You said the rift? Is that what you said?

A. That is correct. It started actually within MAYA itself, 

MAYA, IAP. So because seeing that the Palestinians took one 

side of that war, and the Saudis, the Kuwaitis Egyptians took 

another side -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I think we need to 

approach on this. 

THE COURT: All right. Come up. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MS. HOLLANDER: I am sorry to do this, but I think I 

know where this is going. I think he is about to testify that 

the Palestinians, as though they were a block, took the side 

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against the United States side, in other words took Saddam 

Hussein's side. And the rift was caused because there were 

some Palestinians who took that side, and there were the 

Kuwaitis who were involved these organizations. But I just 

want him to avoid him saying the Palestinians and though every 

Palestinian took the side of Saddam Hussein when the United 

States was fighting Saddam Hussein. So if we can just avoid 

that and just get past this, that there is just a rift. It is 

a 403 issue, because there is no reason except that they had a 

rift.

MR. DRATEL: In fact, it was Yasser Arafat that took 

the position in favor of Saddam Hussein, so it is kind of 

ironic to be out there for the jury. If we just say there was 

a rift and that it separated the Arabs from the Palestinians 

and then go on. 

MR. JACKS: They can clear that up on cross 

examination. He will honestly explain it. He may agree with 

you. 

MS. HOLLANDER: It is not a matter of agreeing with 

me. It is a matter that from the perspective of this jury, he 

is taking a position -- He is going to say they took the 

position on the side of Saddam Hussein, which Yasser Arafat 

did, and that just gets into a huge 403 issue given the United 

States' position and Saddam Hussein and 9/11 and what people 

think about that.

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MR. DRATEL: And Your Honor, I think it injects into 

the case something that the Court, and all of us, have tried 

to keep out, and rightfully so. But the other thing is it is 

not relevant to the ultimate point which is there was a 

separation between MAYA and IAP. 

THE COURT: That is kind of where -- I am tending to 

agree. I don't mind him saying as a result of the Gulf War, 

you know, without getting into a lot of detail because it is 

not necessary. It is just not necessary. And it does open up 

issues that probably don't need to be gone into. You can 

direct him there without --

MS. HOLLANDER: He has already said -- We won't 

object to leading that there was a rift and they ended up on 

separate --

THE COURT: He wants to take off. I know.

MR. JACKS: He will even testify that it was so 

ridiculous that the Kuwaitis -- 

THE COURT: Why is that relevant? 

MR. JACKS: I understand.

THE COURT: Then why are we spending time on that? 

The Gulf War caused a rift, and then we can go from there, 

without getting into a lot of detail. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Let me just ask you or redirect my 

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question. You said that there developed a rift after the 

first Gulf War in 1991. Correct? Within or between MAYA and 

IAP. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And without going into the reasons for the rift, who was 

on one side of the issue and who was on the other side?

A. The Palestinians were on one side along with people from 

Yemen, and the other side were the Egyptians and Saudis.

Q. And we are talking about people that -- members of MAYA 

and members of IAP. Correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And as a result of that rift, what happened to this 

situation where the IAP would have a Palestine Day within the 

overall MAYA convention? Did that practice continue or did it 

end?

A. I think it ends by either '94, '95 IAP starts to have its 

own convention. The day after the MAYA ends or the same day 

the MAYA ends, the IAP will kick in.

Q. Would they be in the same city?

A. It will be the same city, it will be the same hotel, yes, 

sir.

Q. Same hotel?

A. Correct.

Q. Or facility, auditorium, or whatever?

A. No, because the audience will be like less in number, so 

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if MAYA has two hotels, the IAP will choose one of the hotels 

and stay in that hotel.

Q. I believe my question earlier was whether or not 

you -- after you moved to Georgia did you continue to attend 

MAYA conventions?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. What kind of get-togethers or conventions, if any, did 

the IAP have?

A. I think it is like mainly one day, but after that I think 

it moved to the weekend, which is Friday night, Saturday, and 

then Sunday in the afternoon, maybe in '95, '96. But just 

like the same thing, but mainly talks about Palestine and the 

events going on inside the occupied territories.

Q. Now, are you talking about the once-a-year convention 

when you are talking about what you just said of IAP?

A. Correct.

Q. Did IAP have other events at other times during the year?

A. Correct. After the start of the Intifada in '88, the IAP 

came up with the idea of the Palestinian festivals, which 

starts in early October of every year in different cities, big 

cities, like New Jersey, Chicago, Los Angeles, Houston, 

Dallas, and so on. And every weekend there is a festival and 

these festivals leads to the MAYA convention.

Q. And these festivals, what name did they go by?

A. Mostly al-Intifada festivals.

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Q. And this was to commemorate the outbreak of the Intifada?

A. To commemorate -- Yes, sir.

Q. And you said that -- You said that these festivals would 

begin in what month or time of the year?

A. Around the first of October of every year.

Q. And did you attend some of those festivals?

A. Correct.

Q. And as far as where they would be held, you said that it 

was in major cities?

A. Correct.

Q. What would go on at these festivals? What kinds of 

activities would be conducted?

A. These festivals were only a few hours, probably four or 

five hours. There will be a guest speaker coming from 

overseas, and there will be a dinner served, and there will be 

The Rock band, music, singing, and there will be donation.

Q. I am sorry?

A. Donation.

Q. And at these IAP festivals who was collecting --

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, what year are we talking 

about or time frame we are talking about on these particular 

festivals? 

THE WITNESS: We are talking about the year -- 

Because the Intifada started in December of '87, so these 

festivals started in October of 1988, '88, '89, '90, '91, '92, 

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'93, I think '94 also. It might continue after that.

Q. And you said that there would be guest speakers. Is that 

correct?

A. Yes, sir, correct.

Q. And can you give an example of some of the persons you 

know that you saw speak at these Intifada festivals?

A. One of the very well-known figure was from Kuwait Sheikh 

Ahmed Qatan, and also Mohamed Siam. He was the ex-president 

of the Islamic University. Now, are you talking about in 

general the whole years or just specific time periods? 

Q. I am just talking about at these Intifada festivals that 

the IAP put on, just a sample of some of the persons that 

would be invited to speak. 

A. Right. So I said Ahmed Qatan, Mohamed Siam, Ahmed 

al-Kofahi. 

Q. All right. Are there others?

A. Jamil Hamami, Ahmed al-Kofeein, K-O-F-E-E-I-N. I am 

trying to remember others.

Q. That is fine. And what organization was in charge of 

collecting donations at these IAP festivals?

A. HLF.

Q. Was anybody there representing -- Who was there 

representing HLF during those IAP festivals?

A. Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Was Shukri Abu Baker ever there?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see Ghassan Elashi there?

A. Now, because I attended -- You are talking about the 

festivals. Right? 

Q. Right. 

A. Correct. So like the one that I attended, like in 

Houston, we had two times in Houston, so only Mohammad 

El-Mezain came in there. I attended one in Dallas, and yes, I 

saw Shukri and Ghassan. They were in Dallas. I attended the 

one in New Jersey. I saw only Mohammad El-Mezain there.

Q. And you said that these festivals would occur during the 

latter part of the year every weekend. Is that correct? Or 

almost are every weekend?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You said that The Rock band would perform. And do you 

mean -- What band are you talking about?

A. The one we saw on the tape last night, yes, sir.

Q. The band that Mufid Abdulqader was a part of?

A. Mufid, Fawaz, and Munzer, yes, sir.

Q. With regard to -- Strike that, please. I want to direct 

your attention to -- Was there a MAYA convention in 1994?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that would be two years after this Oklahoma City 

convention. Is that correct? The one that we saw yesterday?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

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Q. Did you attend the MAYA convention in 1994?

A. Yeah. It was held in Chicago. Yes, I attended.

Q. And was it similar in terms of the length of time of the 

convention and the activities that would go on? Was it 

similar to the other conventions that have taken place 

earlier?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Was the IAP -- Did the IAP at that time in 1994 still 

have a day as a part of the MAYA convention?

A. Correct.

Q. And in the 1994 MAYA convention, was there another closed 

meeting that you were invited to attend?

A. Correct.

Q. And was it written or referenced on the schedule or 

agenda for the whole MAYA convention?

A. No.

Q. And where did this meeting take place?

A. It took place inside one of the meeting rooms inside the 

hotel.

Q. And about how many people were in attendance at this 

closed meeting?

A. About 150.

Q. And who was in that meeting? Let me back up. Were there 

any Hamas figures at that meeting?

A. You mean the speaker? 

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Q. Just either speaking or in attendance. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who do you recall being there?

A. The speaker was Khalid Mishal. I recall seeing there 

Mohammad El-Mezain, Shukri, Ghassan, Abdel Haleem Ashqar, 

Jamil Dalu invited me there.

Q. You need to slow down, if you don't mind, so the court 

reporter can keep up. You said Mohammad El-Mezain, Shukri Abu 

Baker, Abdel Haleem Ashqar?

A. Ghassan.

Q. Ghassan who?

A. Ghassan Elashi.

Q. All right. And I think you were naming some other 

people?

A. Jamil Dalu.

Q. Your friend from Houston?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. Were there others there that were in attendance, other 

Hamas figures?

A. I think Muin Shabib was there also.

Q. Muin Shabib?

A. Right.

Q. What about from out of the country? Were there any were 

there any persons from outside the United States in 

attendance?

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A. That is the one I mentioned, Khalid Mishal from outside.

Q. And what was his position in connection to Hamas at that 

time?

A. At that time also Khalid Mishal was not publicly known, 

but when he was introduced he was introduced as one of Hamas' 

leaders within the political wing of Hamas.

Q. And is that within this closed meeting that you are 

referring to?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you meet him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you speak to him or greet him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who spoke in that closed meeting? And if it was more 

than one person, tell us who that would be. 

A. Mousa Abu Marzook introduced Khalid Mishal to speak.

Q. Did Marzook speak to the group?

A. No. It was mainly for Khalid Mishal's speech.

Q. And what was the subject matter that he spoke of?

A. Khalid Mishal spoke about the emerging of Hamas.

Q. You are saying emerging?

A. How did Hamas develop during the past years, and what is 

the role of Hamas in the future, and what is our role in this 

country to help Hamas.

Q. And you said "our role." Who are you referring to when 

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you say "what was our role in helping Hamas"?

A. The attendees.

Q. And was anything conveyed to the audience in this closed 

meeting about what was expected of them or requested of them?

A. Khalid Mishal spoke about how the Palestinians inside the 

occupied territories did everything in order to fight the 

occupation, sacrificing their plot, their homes, their money, 

themselves, and they are bringing the name of Hamas to this 

level. So we need to keep up with that work and do work along 

with Hamas in order to keep moving the movement of Hamas.

Q. After -- Did anybody other than Khalid Mishal speak to 

the group as a whole?

A. Abdel Haleem Ashqar made a comment after the meeting.

Q. Once these speeches, or whatever you call them, were 

given, did the audience have any participation in what was 

going on in the meeting?

A. Mousa Abu Marzook stepped in and he called for the 

breaking of the attendees into groups.

Q. And what kind of groups was he talking about?

A. He said in order to follow up with Mishal's speech, that 

we will divide into groups, such as the media group, the 

political group, the money group, in order to really to 

organize our work.

Q. Your work?

A. Organize our work as attendees.

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Q. All right. And was it announced or stated in the meeting 

who was to head up these different committees or groups or 

sections?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And can you tell us who was heading up -- who was 

designated as the person to head up the different committees 

or sections?

A. Ahmed Yousef was the head of the media group.

Q. Does he go by another name?

A. That is the only name I know him by, Ahmed Yousef.

Q. And do you know what entity or organization he was 

associated with?

A. UASR.

Q. Do you know where that organization was located?

A. I think New Jersey. Washington, D.C., I think.

Q. And what was the purpose or what was your understanding 

about what that organization did?

A. It is a research organization.

Q. All right. And so he was head of the media section or 

committee?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. What were some of the other -- You said there 

was a political section or committee?

A. Right.

Q. And who was designated as the head of that?

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A. Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. You said there was a financial or funds section, money 

section. 

A. Correct.

Q. Who was the head of that?

A. Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. And was that -- What was your understanding about what 

that section or committee was supposed to be involved with or 

take care of?

MR. DRATEL: Objection; basis, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: Donate, collecting money. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What was your understanding about how 

that money was to be applied or to whom it was to be 

delivered?

MR. DRATEL: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: To organization controlled or founded 

by Hamas in the occupied territories.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What were -- After this closed meeting, 

what happened -- And after this announcement or decision about 

these other groups, what followed that?

A. I was chosen to be within the media group. My job was to 

follow up with the news, make a report. So I was given that 

assignment in that meeting right there to watch the news, the 

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hearings on C-SPAN and the Congress and the Senate and make a 

report.

Q. And at some point in time did you begin to do that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I would like to show you a video? I believe it has been 

admitted as Government's Exhibit No. 125. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, it has already been 

admitted, and I would request permission -- I am sorry. HLF 

Search No. 125, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And sir, if you would just watch on your 

screen, and I will have some questions for you.

(Whereupon, Government's Exhibit HLF Search 125 was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Are you able to read the caption, sir, on 

the screen to see what this is described as?

A. That is one of the festivals we talked about, yes, sir.

Q. And festivals put on by the IAP?

A. Correct.

Q. And do you see the date that this festival is taking 

place?

A. Yes; october 30, '94, Chicago.

Q. All right. Do you recognize the names of the persons 

listed under the word speakers? 

A. Sheikh Harb Jaber from the city of Jericho in the West 

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Bank.

Q. And I am sorry. Just if you could say that a little more 

slowly. 

A. Okay.

Q. He is from where?

A. He is from the city of Jericho in the West Bank.

Q. All right. And then the second person?

A. Sheikh Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Is that the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain?

A. Correct.

Q. The next person?

A. Sheikh Jamal Said.

Q. And the next person?

A. Rafeeq Jaber.

Q. Jamal Said, do you know who he is?

A. He is currently, and was before and still, the emam of 

the mosque, I think Mosque Foundation south of Chicago.

Q. All right. Rafeeq Jaber, do you know who he is?

A. He became the president or chairman of the IAP I think 

late '90s, '97, '98.

Q. All right. Do you know where he is from, where he lives?

A. I know he is Palestinian, but I really don't know what 

city in Palestine he is from.

Q. And then the person shown as the master of ceremony, do 

you know that person?

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A. Yeah. Sabri Ibrahim, I know him, again a Palestinian, 

from Jordan, and he lived in Chicago.

Q. What is hanging in front of the podium where the speaker 

is speaking, Mr. Shorbagi?

A. That is the Palestinian flag with the Shahada on the 

white strip there.

Q. And whose version of the Palestinian flag is that?

A. That is the Hamas version.

Q. Can you see those flags that those men are waving?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And are they -- What types of flags are they?

A. That is the Hamas flags -- Not the Hamas flag, but the 

Palestinian flag with the Shahada, which is the version of the 

Hamas flag of the Palestinian flag.

Q. Let me ask you, what is being depicted in this video, Mr. 

Shorbagi? Is that consistent with the other festivals that 

were held by the IAP?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you have an occasion to ever see or meet with any of 

the Defendants in Rome, Georgia where you lived?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Let me take them one at a time. With regard to Mohammad 

El-Mezain, did he ever come to Rome, Georgia?

A. Correct.

Q. What was his purpose in coming to Rome, Georgia?

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A. Mohammad El-Mezain used to come when there is a guest 

speaker, like he came a few times with Sheikh Mohamed Siam and 

Sheikh Deeb Anees.

MR. DRATEL: Can we get a time frame, Your Honor? 

THE WITNESS: He came in with Sheikh Deeb Anees in 

'93, late '93, like August, September '93. And he came in 

with Sheikh Mohamed Siam in '94, and he came another time with 

Sheikh Deeb Anees in '95. And then Mohamed Siam came by 

himself in '96.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Let me go back. I am going to show you 

what has been admitted as Government's Exhibit Demonstrative 

No. 17. And just if you can, is Mohamed Siam that you are 

referring to depicted on this chart?

A. Right there, yes, sir.

Q. You are pointing to the middle row the far left?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And do you know -- Strike that. About how many time do 

you remember Mohammad El-Mezain whether he came alone or 

coming with somebody coming to Rome, Georgia?

A. Probably five times.

Q. And that would be from what year to what year?

A. From '93 till '99.

Q. And do you recall some of the -- Let me back up. You 

said that he would come when there were guest speakers. 

A. Right, correct.

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Q. Did the guest speaker come with him, or was the guest 

speaker already there when he would come?

A. They used to come together.

Q. And the guest speaker, is it Mohamed Siam and Deeb Anees 

and those individuals that you are referring to?

A. Correct.

Q. Are there any others that you can think of that came with 

Mohammad El-Mezain as guest speakers?

A. There were other guest speakers that came to Rome, but 

mainly these are the two that Mohammad El-Mezain came with.

Q. And when you say they were guest speakers, where were 

they speaking?

A. At the Rome mosque.

Q. And was -- Do you know if they were making guest speaking 

appearances at anywhere else in the area?

A. Right. They would be invited to come to the United 

States to speak.

Q. Invited by whom?

A. By the Holy Land Foundation. And they will be around 

different cities in the United States, and one of the cities 

will be Rome.

Q. And where would they speak? Physically where would they 

give their talk or speech?

A. Now, most of those speakers will go to big cities on 

Friday, but to Rome most of the times we choose not Friday 

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because it is a small community, and we could gather people on 

like a fast note in the. Town, but mainly also they would 

come for a very certain purpose, which is meeting Samir 

Khatib.

Q. All right. And were they soliciting money when they 

would meet with Samir Khatib?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And what were some of the -- Were you involved in these 

arrangements in setting up these meetings with Samir Khatib?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And how would you get notified or how would these 

meetings be set up?

A. I will get a call from either Haitham or Mohammad 

El-Mezain and I will respond by, "Okay. This week, or next 

week. It depends on the condition of Samir Khatib, the health 

condition." And when they come they come to the Atlanta 

airport. I will be there, I will take them from the airport 

to the hotel or to my home, and before they come in I will let 

Nassim, who is Samir's brother, and Samir know they were 

coming. So we will have a dinner at either my home or Samir's 

home. 

After that we will go to the mosque. There will be a 

talk by either Mohamed Siam or Deeb Anees. And then after 

that we will go back to Samir Khatib's home, like just us and 

Mohammad El-Mezain whoever the guest speaker is, myself, 

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Nassim, Samir, and Samir will either pledge the money either 

at the mosque or at his home.

Q. Were there donations solicited from the other members of 

the mosque or other attendees at the mosque?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was there anything -- With regard to these visits by 

Mohammad El-Mezain, do you recall any of the projects that he 

was seeking money for?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Just can you tell us some that you recall?

A. In '94, '95 of the Holy Land Foundation their main 

projects were what they called, two projects mainly, the food 

package and the school supplies; the food package for the 

needy families, the poor families, and the school supplies for 

the kids going back to school that they could not afford 

buying the materials for school.

Q. What was your understanding about how that money was to 

be used or how it was to move through whatever process it 

moved through? What was your understanding?

MS. MORENO: Objection; hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled. 

THE WITNESS: In '94 the PLO or the Palestinian 

Authority came to exist in the West Bank and Gaza, those 

organizations in the West Bank and Gaza, such as the Islamic 

Society and so on, as the resistor with the Palestinian 

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Authority, so they have a registration number, so the money 

will go to these organizations and these organizations will 

distribute the food packages to the families there.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What type of organizations are you 

referring to or talking about?

A. Like the Islamic Society in Gaza or the Islamic Compound 

in also Gaza or Khan Yunis.

Q. Any other examples that you can give us about other 

organizations that would receive this money?

A. Correct. Such as the Islamic University. This is in 

Gaza. In the West Bank, they have something called the zakat 

charity, and those zakat charities were founded at the time of 

Jordan ruling over the West Bank back in the '40s, and they 

still existed. And these zakat charities will get the money 

from the Holy Land Foundation. They have a list of the poor 

families, and they will give the money -- the food packages 

which consist of rice, meat, and flour and so on, to these 

families.

Q. Were there any particular zakat committees that were to 

receive these funds?

A. Now, the Holy Land Foundation has -- they have like a 

small newsletter published bi-weekly, so they will list the 

names of those zakat. One very well-known is Nablus zakat led 

by Sheikh Hamed Bitawi, one of the Hamas prominent figures in 

the West Bank. And the other one, Jenin zakat charity by -- 

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MR. DRATEL: Object, Your Honor, on basis.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: So those zakat charities, as I said, 

in the West Bank. But in the Gaza there were no zakat 

charities, but they were those other organizations.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And who controlled those zakat committees 

in the West Bank?

A. Some of them were -- 

MS. MORENO: Objection; hearsay, Your Honor, and 

foundation.

MR. DRATEL: Basis. 

THE COURT: Do you want to lay a predicate? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Did you have an understanding or a 

knowledge as to who controlled those committees?

A. Some of them they were controlled by -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor; non-responsive.

THE COURT: Just answer that yes or no.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) One step at a time. Did you have a 

knowledge or understanding about who controlled those 

committees? Yes or no. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where did that knowledge come from?

A. It came from different sources. It came from newspapers, 

it came from Hamas leaflets, it came from Hamas -- the 

internet later on '98, '99, the website of Hamas, and came 

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from also talking among friends.

Q. Well, and when you say friends, are these friends persons 

that were similarly situated to you?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Were they persons that were supporting the Holy Land 

Foundation and the IAP and Hamas?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was your understanding or knowledge about who 

controlled these zakat committees?

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: Sorry. Say the question again. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Who controlled the zakat committees that 

the Holy Land Foundation was sending these either food 

packages or money to buy food packages, who controlled those 

zakat committees in the West Bank?

A. There are a number of zakat committees in the West Bank. 

Some of them are controlled by Hamas; others run by different 

people, not necessarily Hamas.

Q. Well, the ones that -- Do you know which ones -- Which 

ones, was it your understanding were controlled by Hamas?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor, as to the nature 

of the source, and just -- to hearsay and --

THE COURT: Overruled. 

MR. DRATEL: -- all the objections we have made.

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THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. You may answer.

THE WITNESS: The question again. I am sorry. I am 

lost there.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Which committees did you know or 

understand to be controlled by Hamas or Hamas committees?

A. Zakat charity -- I am sorry. Nablus zakat charity, 

Jenin, Ramallah, Hebron. That is the ones I know.

Q. Getting back to the purposes that Mohammad El-Mezain 

stated in terms of what he was seeking money for, do you 

recall that I had asked you about that? Just do you recall my 

asking you about that?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Are there other recollections that you have about 

other trips that he made and what he said he wanted the money 

for? 

MR. DRATEL: Objection to the form of the question, 

Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Overrule the objection. 

THE WITNESS: I am sorry? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Can you recall or tell us other reasons 

that Mohammad El-Mezain came seeking money, according to him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Okay. Give us one that you recall. 

A. As I said, in '94-'95 mainly was food packages and school 

supplies. After that the Holy Land Foundation moved to the 

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next stage which is the stage of projects. And the projects 

that I helped by the money of the Khatib family there was the 

el-Salam Peace Hospital in Khan Yunis, which is a very 

moderate hospital, because most of the time there was closure 

on the Gaza Strip so sick people could not would not be able 

to leave the Gaza Strip to go to Egypt for special treatment 

or special surgery so they needed that hospital in Khan Yunis. 

That hospital cost a few million dollars, so they had the 

hospital in Khan Yunis. 

They also had a very public library in Hebron. There was 

no -- Most of the big cities don't have a public library, so 

they had a public library in Hebron. 

And later on came also the project of the wells, the 

water from the ground that a lot of people there don't have 

facility for clean water, so they were working also on these 

projects.

Q. Did Mohammad El-Mezain ever solicit money from Samir 

Khatib for -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. It is leading.

THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Can you tell us whether or not Mohammad 

El-Mezain ever solicited money for something that would have 

been separate -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. It is still 

leading.

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THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead and finish up. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Separate and apart from the Holy Land 

Foundation?

A. I am sorry. I didn't really understand fully the 

question.

Q. Let me approach it this way. During the time that 

Mohammad El-Mezain came to Rome, where was he living?

A. The early '90s he was living in New Jersey, and then I 

don't really know what year he moved, probably '95-'96 he 

moved to California.

Q. When he was living in New Jersey, what was he doing? Did 

he have any other activity or role there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was that?

A. I know that he was the emam of the Paterson Islamic 

center there.

Q. And is there a mosque connected to that Islamic center?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what other -- Did he ever appear in Georgia on behalf 

or seeking anything for that center?

A. I remember the first time I saw him in Rome he came for 

the Islamic Center of Paterson, and Sam gave him the amount of 

$50,000.

Q. I am sorry. I couldn't hear the amount. 

A. Okay. $50,000. They needed money because they bought 

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that building and they owe money to the owner or to the 

company that owned the real estate, that owned the building. 

And they were falling behind, so he came and asked Samir 

Khatib for donation, and Samir Khatib gave him the $50,000.

Q. And did anybody come with him on that trip?

A. Yes. Sheikh Deeb Anees was with him that trip.

Q. Was there ever any repercussions for that fact? Was 

there ever any comment or did you ever hear anything about 

that from the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was -- Who did you hear from from the Holy Land 

Foundation?

A. From Haitham and Shukri.

Q. And what was their reason for calling you?

A. They did not like the idea that Mohammad El-Mezain is 

collecting money from Samir Khatib for a project or a mosque 

inside the United States; that New Jersey people should take 

care of their own mosque, and the money from Khatib should 

always go to the West Bank and Gaza.

Q. And who was supposed to be the recipient or the person 

that would get that money to the West Bank and Gaza?

A. From the Holy Land Foundation? 

Q. Yes, but from Samir Khatib to the West Bank, who was --

A. The Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And what, if anything, else was said by either Haitham 

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Maghawri or Shukri Abu Baker about why they were upset with 

Mohammad El-Mezain for collecting money for this mosque in New 

Jersey, or school?

A. They called inquiring about like they knew that Mohamed 

was with Sheikh Deeb Anees. As I said, Sheikh Deeb Anees was 

invited by the Holy Land Foundation, so they paid for his trip 

and they paid for his accommodation.

Q. To Rome?

A. To Rome and to the United States. Right. But also to 

Rome. Right.

Q. All right. 

A. So when he was in Rome, Haitham called about the visit, 

the trip, and then that was my contact, me and Haitham. And I 

told him that, yes, they came and got $50,000. 

"And what was it for?" 

"For The Islamic center of Paterson."

Q. And you said that he made another trip with Deeb Anees, 

and how many times do you recall Mohammad El-Mezain coming to 

Georgia with Mohamed Siam?

A. Two times.

Q. And do you recall or are you able to recall what they 

were collecting money for on those occasions with regard to 

Mohamed Siam being there?

A. They came in -- During these two times they were 

collecting money one time for the Holy Land Foundation.

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Q. Was money collected every time that Mohamed Siam came 

there?

A. No, sir.

Q. You said he came there one time by himself?

A. Correct.

Q. Was he given any money then by Samir Khatib?

A. Really that time me and Haitham and the Holy Land 

Foundation we discussed this issue that the community in Rome, 

especially the Khatib, didn't want them to feel every time a 

guest speaker will come will come just for the money. So 

sometimes the guest speaker will come just for being with the 

community there, talking to them, and enjoy the time with them 

and leave without calling for money. So not every time there 

is a visit there is money. 

So yes, Mohamed Siam came in one time. That was the end 

of Ramadan, celebration of Eid. He stayed with us during that 

day, we went to the park, and he stayed with us all day long. 

And we went to Samir Khatib, we had dinner there. It was a 

nice occasion, but no money collected during that term.

Q. Was that unique or unusual that no money would be 

collected when they came to Samir Khatib?

A. It has to be done, because they always send -- the Khatib 

family always send money to the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. What was your understanding about the reason that the 

Holy Land Foundation, either a representative of the Holy Land 

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Foundation or a speaker, was coming to Georgia? Was it to see 

the -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection. It is leading. 

THE COURT: Rephrase, counsel. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Who was the person that they most were 

interested in seeing?

A. You mean in Rome? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Now, if are you talking about the community, they don't 

really much care who is coming because all of them are good 

speakers, either Deeb Anees or Mohamed Siam. But Samir Khatib 

personally, most of the times he would like to see -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection; hearsay, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: That is what he was telling me.

THE COURT: Hold on a second. 

MR. JACKS: I will rephrase it, Your Honor, if you 

would like me to. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) With regard to representatives of the 

Holy Land Foundation, Mohammad El-Mezain or Shukri Abu Baker 

or you said Ghassan Elashi came one time. Correct? 

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Who was it that they came to see?

A. Samir Khatib.

Q. You made reference to an incident or an occasion when 

Samir Khatib was in a manic phase and he pledged or agreed to 

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donate a million dollars. Is that what you said?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And can you tell that story to us, please?

A. Yes. I remember -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I am going to object to 

a narrative.

THE COURT: Overruled. He may explain. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you remember about when this was?

A. I think that was in either '94 or '95.

Q. All right. Go ahead. 

A. I remember Alexandria wanted to go into a big project, 

and they put money into it. And then it did not work out 

well, but successfully Alexandria were able to get all their 

money back. So Samir at that time was in his manic era, so he 

called -- 

MR. DRATEL: Object to hearsay, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: We were at the office of Alexandria, 

and he told me, "I want to donate a million dollars to the 

Holy Land Foundation." Nassim was out of the country at that 

time.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) That is Samir's brother?

A. Samir's brother. Right. The one that was overseeing the 

company. Now, that was a big number for the amount of money, 

and knowing Samir had the mental problem, but again when he is 

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in that mental problem he doesn't want anyone to say no. 

Everybody must say yes because, as I said, he thinks he is the 

king.

Q. All right. What happened after can he made that 

statement?

A. He got a check from his son Kareem. Kareem was on the 

signatory of Alexandria. And he asked him to sign the check 

without telling him to whom or what the amount. So Kareem, 

his son who was I think in early 20s at that time, he signed 

the check. 

So we took the check and he said, "Let's go to the post 

office." So I went to the post office with him.

Q. Let me stop you there. At this time that you are talking 

about when he is getting the check from his son and you and he 

are making the trip to the post office, had he communicated 

anything to the Holy Land Foundation about this upcoming 

donation?

MR. DRATEL: I object again on hearsay, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: You are asking about the donor 

communicating? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. Overrule that. 

THE WITNESS: Yeah, he called -- Okay. When he said 

a million dollars, he said, "Go ahead and call Mohammad 

El-Mezain at my office in Alexandria. So I got Mohammad 

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El-Mezain's number in New Jersey, so I dial his number and he 

talked to him and he said, "I will send a million dollars 

today to you by check."

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) I am sorry. Who talked to Mohammad 

El-Mezain?

A. Samir Khatib.

Q. Okay. All right. And so then you -- What happened as 

you all were going to the post office?

A. Okay. I took the check with me, the signed check, and 

the envelope, the stamp, we took the address for Mohammad 

El-Mezain his home address in New Jersey, and we went to the 

post office. 

I told him, "Listen, Samir. I will write the check and I 

will put it in the mail, but not now because I am busy now. I 

am doing other things." 

He said, "No, no, no. You come with me now." 

I said, "Okay. I will go now." Because I knew this is a 

big amount and I have to consult with Nassim. But once Samir 

is saying something, because he is the one who owns the money, 

but the okay has to come from Nassim. 

Anyway, we went to the post office, and he said, "Go 

ahead and write down Holy Land Foundation." I wrote down Holy 

Land Foundation, the date, and then $1 million. And I wrote 

$1 million, put it in an envelope, and then address of 

Mohammad El-Mezain. 

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He said, "Let's go and deposit it in the bank," [sic} 

because he did not trust me that I will do that, so he wanted 

to go with me into the post office. And I was not really 

happy at that time that he is doing this because I don't want 

to be involved with something like this without the approval 

of Nassim. 

But finally, luckily, he said, "I tell you what. You go 

to the post office. I need to smoke a cigarette." Because he 

kept smoking because of his mania. So he stayed outside 

there. I went to the post office, and then I just dropped the 

check in my pocket. I did not send it in the mail. 

He said, "You send it?" 

I said, "Yes I send it." 

"You sure?"

I said, "Yes, I am sure I send it. Yes, absolutely." 

"Okay. Let's go back and talk to Mohammad El-Mezain." 

And I went back, again I called El-Mezain, I told him, 

"Listen, you know, this is a big amount." And Samir at that 

time was not around. He was using the bathroom. But I 

explained to Mohammad El-Mezain that, "Whenever Samir talked 

to you, that I am sending the money, and you tell him, 'Okay. 

Thank you very much. Whenever I give the money I will let you 

know.'" 

And we talked again to Mohammad El-Mezain that day, and a 

few other, like two or three days later on, like giving the 

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mail a few more days, he came to the office and said, "Call 

Mohammad El-Mezain."

Q. Is this Samir?

A. Samir Khatib, and orders like, "Call now." 

"You got the money?" 

And then Mohammad El-Mezain said, "Yes, we got it. Thank 

you. Thank you very much." Just to calm Samir that things 

are okay. Because I explained to Mohammad El-Mezain that we 

have to get the approval of Nassim, and he understood that.

Q. Well, was there at any time during that transaction when 

Mohammad El-Mezain -- 

MR. DRATEL: Object to leading, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Go ahead and finish your question.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Was there any time when he expressed a 

desire that he wanted the money or expected the money?

A. Yeah, absolutely. This is a million dollars for the Holy 

Land Foundation in '94. It is a big amount. Yeah. But the 

thing, as I explained it to Mohammad El-Mezain, this is what 

should happen, but he wanted the money.

Q. And what did he do to convey that he wanted that money 

after you had initially -- after Mr. Khatib had initially 

said, "I am sending you this check," what did Mohammad 

El-Mezain do in the days following that?

A. I met him at the MAYA conference after that, because this 

happened late in '94, and he asked me about the money and the 

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check, and I told him, "Really it is in the hand of Nassim 

now." So he asked me about the money, but really -- I mean, 

he wanted me to try to see if I can get the money from Nassim 

to -- Nassim, not Samir, to the Holy Land Foundation, but I 

told him it is really in the hand of Nassim now.

Q. Did Shukri Abu Baker come to Rome, Georgia?

A. Yes, sir, he came only one time.

Q. And do you know about when that was?

A. I think late '99. I think '99.

Q. And what was the purpose of his trip?

A. They were working on the project of wells, the water 

wells, and he came into Rome with some posters like this, and 

he had a videotape. And he came into the Atlanta mosque first 

and talked about the same project. I went to Atlanta, I met 

him in Atlanta, and then I brought him to Rome. I think it 

was Ramadan at that time. Yeah, it was Ramadan. We had iftar 

at the -- breaking fast at the mosque. And after that he led 

prayer there, and he talked about these wells. He had a 

videotape about the sick people in the West Bank and Gaza, and 

he talked mainly about these wells.

Q. Did he meet with Samir Khatib?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did he solicit money from him?

A. Not like in private, because Samir was at the mosque and 

Samir was watching this tape, and he was -- he saw what the 

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project is talking about, and he pledged I think $60,000. 

Because each well costs $20,000, so he pledged three wells.

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take the morning 

break. We have been here awhile. Let's take a 20-minute 

break. Be back at 11:30. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 11:30.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks? 

MR. JACKS: Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Sir, I wanted to clarify something. You 

said that one of the organizations to which the Holy Land 

Foundation sent funds, or some of the organizations, was the 

Islamic Center?

A. Islamic Society.

Q. Islamic Society. And is there also -- Is there an 

Islamic Compound, or is that a physical location?

A. There is a name called Islamic Compound, and there is 

another one called Islamic Society.

Q. And did the Holy Land Foundation send money to the 

Islamic Compound?

A. Yes, sir. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection, to he knows if they sent 

money.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 

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Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And the -- I think one of the other 

entities you said was the Islamic University of Gaza?

A. That is correct.

Q. Was it provided money by the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Correct.

Q. Those three entities, what organization controls those 

three entities?

A. Hamas.

Q. Are you familiar with a man by the name of Fuad Abu Zeid?

A. Correct.

Q. And who is he?

A. He was what we call the appointed scholar for the city of 

Jenin, and he was overseeing the zakat charity in Jenin.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I object as to the basis 

for knowledge.

THE COURT: Overruled. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Is he a Hamas leader?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. DRATEL: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Are you familiar with an Abdel Khaleq 

Natshe?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is he a Hamas leader?

MR. DRATEL: Again, Your Honor, same objection.

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MS. HOLLANDER: And foundation, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Do you know him to be a Hamas leader?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what organization is he associated or affiliated 

with?

A. He is from the city of Hebron, and he was also overseeing 

the zakat charity in Hebron.

Q. Now, is it a zakat? You said zakat and then you said 

society. 

A. Zakat charity.

Q. Charity. Do you know the name of that organization?

A. The zakat charity? 

Q. The official name of that organization?

A. That is the official name, zakat charity of Hebron.

Q. All right. Have you heard the term bin mal?

A. What is that? 

Q. Bin mal?

A. Bin mal? 

Q. Yes. Maybe I am mispronouncing it. Have you ever -- In 

these meetings that you have attended, did any of the speakers 

talk about jihad with money or financial jihad?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And how was it described? What did they say about it?

A. You know, like -- 

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MR. DRATEL: Object as to hearsay, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: Like there is a jihad with the self, 

when it comes to the Palestinian issue the jihad with self you 

are fighting the Israeli occupation. And when it come to the 

money, jihad with the money, you are helping the people in 

Palestine there to stay in Palestine, and you are helping also 

with, as jihad in money, you are helping by giving money to 

those organizations there.

Q. You indicated that after this Chicago MAYA convention, 

that you were appointed or assigned to be a part of the media 

committee. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And what was -- What were you told that was to be your 

responsibilities?

A. The media groups, I knew that they were divided into 

individuals. Someone will watch like the newspapers, New York 

Times, Los Angeles Times, and so on. Others will watch the 

TV. So I was the one who will be watching the different top 

news, ABC, CBS, CNN, and especially the C-SPAN hearings. So I 

used to watch the C-SPAN hearings in the middle of the night 

looking to their program what hearings will be the 

Congressional hearings, and taking notes and then send these 

notes to UASR.

Q. Was anyone else doing similar work that you know of?

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A. I know Iyad Hindi, I-Y-A-D H-I-N-D-I.

Q. What about Iyad Hindi?

A. After we were done with the Chicago, he told me about -- 

Because already I was -- 

MR. DRATEL: I object to hearsay, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: And I don't know this individual. Why 

is that not hearsay?

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Let me ask you, who is Iyad Hindi?

A. Iyad Hindi was working for Alexandria Carpet the same 

time I was working there '94-'95, and he lived in Rome also.

Q. Was he -- Did he attend these MAYA conventions?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was he in the closed meeting in Chicago in 1994?

A. Correct.

Q. And was he a member or person that was assigned to work 

on one of these committees?

A. Correct.

Q. Which committee was he working on?

A. The media group.

Q. All right. Did you and Iyad Hindi have a conversation 

about the work that you were doing?

A. Correct.

Q. And about how long after the Chicago meeting in 1994 are 

we talking about?

A. At that time he was not working at Alexandria. I am 

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sorry. He was working in Alexandria, but after the meeting, I 

am not really sure, probably like a few months, we talked 

about the media group, and he gave me a number that this is 

what I will be doing, watching the C-SPAN, writing notes of 

these hearings. And then he gave me a phone number. He said 

the phone number is in a coded way, that it has been written 

backwards. So if the number is let's say 415, so it will be 

written 514 so I can read it backwards. So that is a fax 

number to fax these documents to write down of the hearings, 

and I fax them to that number.

Q. All right. Now, let me walk you through this. You were 

supposed to be watching reports or programs on television. Is 

that correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. What type of programs were you supposed to be watching?

A. Now, '94-'95 Hamas, after the deportees and then the 

deportees came back to the occupied territories, is becoming 

now a big name, so the United States State Department, and the 

Congress and the Senate start looking into this new phenomenon 

of Hamas. So they had many hearings at the Congress and the 

Senate. The unfortunate things is that these hearings were 

shown only late at night, so I used to look into their 

program, the C-SPAN program, and find out when are these 

programs. And I stayed up nights watching these Congressional 

hearings of what is the approach of the United States toward 

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Hamas.

Q. What were you supposed to do after you watched these 

programs?

A. First I used to tape the hearing, stayed for hours, and 

then after that go over it minute by minute taking notes. And 

after taking notes, write it in a neat way and then fax it 

over to the UASR.

Q. Fax it to who?

A. To that number, the fax number that was given to me, and 

later on I knew it was the UASR.

Q. That is the organization in Washington or northern 

Virginia?

A. Correct.

Q. And who did you say was the head of that organization?

A. That was Ahmed Yousef.

Q. And who provided you with the phone number to fax these 

reports to?

A. Iyad Hindi.

Q. And you said it was something about -- it was encoded or 

in some kind of a code?

A. Just like I kept the number in my pocket so if the number 

were ever lost or something, or misplaced or someone got the 

number wouldn't know what number was that, so it was like a 

backwards number.

Q. All right. Do you know an individual named Jamil Hamami?

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A. Correct.

Q. And what organization was he associated with?

A. He is from Jerusalem, and he was overseeing al-Aqsa 

Center in -- I think like an education center in Jerusalem.

Q. Was he a member of Hamas?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you ever meet him?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor; again, 

foundation.

THE COURT: Overruled. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Did you ever meet him?

A. I met him twice.

Q. Where did you meet him?

A. I met him in '90 in Houston.

Q. What was the occasion? What was going on in Houston when 

you met him?

A. It was October 1990, the famous massacre in al-Aqsa 

mosque, and Jamil Hamami being from there he came in, again 

with Mohammad El-Mezain about the speakers at the mosque that 

were destroyed by the army, and that was the first time he 

came in. 

And the second time he came in in February of '94, the 

famous Hebron massacre he came in to Rome after that for 

collection of money for his center in Jerusalem.

Q. The occasion in 1990 where you met him in Houston, what 

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kind of a conference or meeting was that?

A. It was really no conference. Houston is a big city, so 

there are a lot of rich people in the big city among the 

Muslim community. So after what happened in al-Aqsa, I am not 

sure if we called or somebody else called and spoke to 

Mohammad El-Mezain that Jamil Hamami is here. So we had a 

lunch meeting in one of the fancy restaurants there, and we 

invited those businessmen to that restaurant, we paid for the 

ticket, for the food, and they came in, Mohammad El-Mezain 

came in, Jamil Hamami came in, I gave the speech there, and 

then Jamil Hamami spoke, I translated, Mohammad El-Mezain 

spoke, and there was collection of money.

Q. And who was the organization collecting the money?

A. The Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And you said that the speakers had been destroyed in the 

al-Aqsa mosque. Are you talking about the sound speakers, the 

sound system?

A. The audio system, the sound system. Right.

Q. You said in '94 you met Jamil Hamami in Rome, Georgia. 

Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. And did anybody come with him on that occasion?

A. Yeah, Muin Shabib came with him.

Q. And did they collect or receive money from Samir Khatib?

A. He came in, as I said, after February. It was Ramadan 

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also February '94 was Ramadan. I remember it was Ramadan, the 

17th of Ramadan, and he came in and --

Q. May I stop you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he collect money from Muin Shabib. I am sorry. From 

Samir Khatib?

A. Only $5,000. It was not a big amount. Yes, he did. I 

am sorry.

Q. And did the Holy Land Foundation find out about that?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know they knew about it?

A. Because Jamil Hamami came in -- Let me explain this. 

Jamil Hamami came in invitation by al-Aqsa Education Fund, not 

the Holy Land Foundation. So the Holy Land Foundation knew 

that Jamil Hamami is in the country by the invitation of 

al-Aqsa Education Fund. So when they knew that he came into 

Rome, they got upset. Haitham got upset, Shukri got upset, 

that the Khatib family money is supposed to go only for the 

Holy Land Foundation, nobody else.

Q. Who said that?

A. Haitham.

Q. You said you had met Ghassan Elashi in Rome on one 

occasion. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And about when was that?

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A. If I am not mistaken, I think that was '95.

Q. Who else came with Ghassan Elashi on that trip?

A. Mohammad El-Mezain, Sheikh Deeb Anees, and Ghassan.

Q. And what was their purpose? What were they seeking?

A. Money for Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And what did Ghassan Elashi say, if anything, about money 

that he would receive?

MR. DRATEL: Objection; leading, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Did Ghassan Elashi discuss either with 

you or Samir Khatib what he wanted to do with the money or aid 

money?

A. Ghassan Samir was in his manic era at that time, he was 

very, very manic. So he saw Samir. So when we sat in the 

hotel, he suggested to establish a Khatib Foundation that will 

save the money for Sam, because when he saw Sam in that manic, 

that Sam might lose all of his money or most of his money, but 

this Khatib foundation will save his money in this foundation. 

His money will be saved.

Q. But what would be done with the money while it is in that 

foundation?

A. I am not really sure. Like when he was talking about the 

Khatib foundation, like -- Okay. The Khatib -- I remember 

now. The Khatib family or the Khatib Foundation will have the 

money, but also the Holy Land Foundation can like have 

investment from that money and like run it as a business or 

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something of that nature.

Q. Well, how would that benefit the Holy Land Foundation?

A. That it will get a portion of that from that investment.

Q. And whose idea was this?

A. Ghassan.

Q. Did that come about? Did that happen?

A. No, sir.

Q. You said that Deeb Anees was there on that visit as well?

A. Yeah, but he was not in that talk there.

Q. Do you recall other occasions when either Mohammad 

El-Mezain or Shukri Abu Baker or Ghassan Elashi acquired or 

obtained money from Samir Khatib, large amounts of money?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What -- Can you just tell us the amounts of money that 

were obtained and when that was and who?

MR. DRATEL: And who, Your Honor, specifically. He 

just lumped three people. 

MR. JACKS: And that is who. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) You may answer. 

THE COURT: Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I saw several times Samir Khatib I was 

there when, or Nassim Khatib giving money to Holy Land 

Foundation. I remember $80,000 in '93, other than the $50,000 

to the New Jersey mosque; and another time when Sheikh Deeb 

Anees was there, $60,000 to the Holy Land Foundation.

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Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And when was that, approximately?

A. That was the years like '94, '95. I mean, every year 

there is a big donation by Samir Khatib or by the Khatib 

family to the Holy Land Foundation, around $100,000, $150,000.

Q. And would that be true in 1996?

A. Yes, sir. But I don't think it was the $100,000, maybe 

like $50,000 or $60,000.

Q. Did Samir Khatib give money to the Holy Land Foundation 

in every year until you left the company?

A. Every year until like '99.

Q. All right. And let me back up. At some point did you 

become aware of the fact that the Holy Land Foundation had 

closed?

MR. DRATEL: It is leading, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) At some point did you become aware of the 

fact that the Holy Land Foundation had closed?

A. Correct. In 2001 after 9/11. Right.

Q. And so between say 1995 and 2001, did Samir Khatib 

continue to donate money to the Holy Land Foundation during 

those years?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And in what approximate dollar amounts are we talking 

about?

A. As I said, in like '94 and '95, it was like in the 

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$100,000, $150,000, and then the number around $50,000, 

$60,000 a year after that.

Q. And were you aware of a point in time when Hamas became 

designated as a terrorist organization?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was that something that you paid attention to?

A. Correct.

Q. And is that something that -- With regard to these people 

that you were associating with, the people at the Holy Land 

Foundation, the people at the IAP, was that something that was 

discussed among yourselves?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And do you know how many times Hamas was designated as a 

terrorist organization?

A. I know it was designated two times.

Q. And each time that it was designated, was that noted or 

discussed among the people that you were associating with?

A. Right, yes.

Q. And did anything change in regard to the operation of the 

Holy Land Foundation from before the designation of Hamas to 

after the designation? Were there any changes in the way that 

things were done or operated?

A. Yes. I remember some of the changes they were having.

Q. What were some of the changes?

MS. HOLLANDER: I believe some of the changes -- I 

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thought he said some of the changes he heard, and I object on 

hearsay basis.

THE COURT: I don't think that is what he said. Go 

ahead.

THE WITNESS: Some of the changes took place; others 

stayed the same.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Okay. What changed?

A. Changed, Holy Land Foundation opened an office in the 

Gaza Strip. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I am going to object just 

on foundation grounds.

THE COURT: Do you want to lay a foundation for that 

predicate? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) How did you become aware of that?

A. They had the newsletter, the Holy Land Foundation 

newsletter, and also they have videotapes about their office 

activity in the Gaza Strip.

Q. All right. So go ahead. They opened an office in the 

Gaza Strip. What other changes took place?

A. Also I remember Shukri was mentioning that he stopped 

sending money to individuals, such as Ahmed Bhar in Khan 

Yunis, and the money now will start going to their office in 

Gaza, and then Gaza will be in charge of the money 

distribution there.

Q. And what about in terms of who the money was intended to 

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benefit? What organization? Did that change?

A. No, the same organization. That is the thing that did 

not change.

Q. And when I say organization, what organization are you 

talking about in terms of who the money was to benefit?

A. Okay. Like their office in Gaza will still give the 

money to the Islamic Society, Islamic Compound, the Islamic 

University in the West Bank, the same zakat charities.

Q. And those were organizations that were controlled by 

Hamas?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor.

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What about the conduct or the statements 

that were made at these conventions or festivals? Was there 

any change in that nature?

A. Yes.

Q. How did those things change?

A. Pre the Hamas designation as a terrorist organization, 

like Hamas was publicly saying Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Hamas, I 

mean, you can see it in the tapes, songs, and the name, but 

after the designation of Hamas there was no mentioning of 

Hamas anymore in the songs.

Q. Well, what about in the speeches?

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A. Same thing as speeches.

Q. So how did they refer to or what terms or terminology did 

they use in place of using the word Hamas?

A. I heard really people sometimes use the word -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. He heard. 

THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to ask him to clarify 

that? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Are you talking about what you have heard 

in the speeches?

A. No. I heard it from friends, like when we talk among 

friends.

Q. All right. Did you ever, either in person or from 

watching videos of these conferences, did you ever see 

speeches that were made after the designation of Hamas?

A. Yes. There were still speeches about especially the 

peace process and the Oslo agreement, the Palestinian 

Authority, and in the speeches they were mentioning -- 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he hasn't answered the 

question; basis of knowledge.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: In these speeches there will be 

mentioning to Hamas, the peace process. But again, in singing 

and those songs, there is no more mentioning of the name 

Hamas. But most of the times whenever I talked, like on the 

phone, because now everything changed and the phones are 

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monitored, so I started using the word the good hands or the 

clean hands, like whenever -- like I am going to send money, 

especially myself when I used to send money to my parents, 

they are giving it to the good hands, meaning the Hamas 

people.

Q. And why did you refer to them as the good hands or the 

clean hands?

A. Because they are the clean hands.

Q. Compared to who?

A. Compared to the corrupted Fatah people.

Q. The PLO?

A. PLO or the Palestinian Authority. Correct.

Q. Just to clarify, you said that at these conventions you 

could purchase videotapes. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. Were any of those videotapes tapes of either earlier 

conventions or festivals, or that current convention or 

festival?

A. Both.

Q. Did you ever acquire those? Did you ever buy those or 

receive them?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. Did you watch them?

A. Correct.

Q. And were there speeches by individuals shown on those 

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videotapes?

A. Correct.

Q. On the subject of videotapes, did you ever receive or 

acquire videotapes that had been filmed by Hamas, that 

contained films made by Hamas?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. What types of films were on those videotapes?

A. There was a program, I am not really sure if it was 60 

Minutes or Nightline, Hamas videotaped the interrogation of 

some of the big collaborators in the Gaza Strip.

MR. DRATEL: We object, Your Honor, for reasons 

stated yesterday. 

THE COURT: Approach the bench on that. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

THE COURT: Where is he going with this? 

MR. JACKS: Hamas would film these interrogations 

and pronounce their judgment and then execute the person. 

They wouldn't show the execution, but show the body 

afterwards. Those would be distributed to the supporters, 

and he -- That is one of the things that was sent to him or 

that he obtained. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I think it is not relevant. 

And to the extent there would be any marginal relevance, 403. 

And in the al-Moayad opinion, clearly this is the kind of 

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stuff that ought to be kept out.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, this is what this 

organization does.

THE COURT: I know. But the problem is you are 

going to start getting into an area where you start running 

the risk that they are going to convict because this is a bad 

organization, but that is not what this is about. The issue 

is did they give money to Hamas, not are they going to convict 

because Hamas is bad. They should not convict because Hamas 

is a bad organization. If they are going to, it needs to be 

because they supported Hamas, as you alleged in the 

indictment. That is the problem. 

So you start running the risk of just making Hamas out -- 

You are getting all this bad stuff about Hamas, and 

potentially influence the jury in that direction. They should 

not be influenced in that direction.

MR. JACKS: I understand. But I think the case law 

says that it is not only permissible to, you know, prove the 

Defendants committed the acts, but also to show the nature of 

what they were doing. And there is cases that talk about, you 

know, for the jury to understand the organization that they 

supported, they are entitled to know, you know, what this 

organization did and what these people that were supporting it 

were aware of. He was aware this was going on, and so it is 

going to be reflected on him that, you know, he knew this 

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stuff was going on and he still supported this organization. 

So I think it goes to intent, their degree of support, 

the fact that even knowing all of this, that they would still 

support this organization, and I think that is a part of this 

offense. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, it is not part of the 

offense. It is not illegal to support Hamas. Your Honor has 

stated the offense. This is designed exactly what Your Honor 

said. It is not relevant and, like I said, 403 would keep 

this out under any circumstances. There has been so much 

evidence already. We have a timeline of suicide bombings. 

What more do we need about the nature of Hamas? 

MS. DUNCAN: This witness' intent is not an issue in 

this case. So whether he watched that and then decided to 

still support Hamas is really largely irrelevant. It is about 

the intent of the Defendants. And they are talking about 

things on TV that he saw, not things that these Defendants 

said or things that these Defendants made. And it is just 

that we are getting to this huge body of evidence that is 

really irrelevant for the men on trial here.

MR. WESTFALL: And we are not even talking about a 

video now that was in the Holy Land possession.

THE COURT: No, he is just trying to get information 

about Hamas. And I let you do some, because I think some is 

appropriate. But I think you are crossing the line on this 

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one. I am going to sustain the objection. 

MS. SHAPIRO: I just was going to make one comment 

about the nature of the organization. The Defense's case is 

going to focus very heavily on the fact that Holy Land did 

charity work, so they are really --

THE COURT: Yes, I understand. But all the jury 

needs to know about Hamas really is they have been designated 

a terrorist organization. That is really what they need to 

know. Now, I understand nothing in this operates in a vacuum, 

so that is why you have gotten into some of what they do and 

why they are designated, but I think you have gone too far and 

this goes too far, and I think this is 403 excludable. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Let me ask you, sir, you have told us 

that at a point in time the MAYA conventions and the IAP 

conventions separated or were held separately. Is that 

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you ever attend an IAP convention in Chicago?

A. Correct.

Q. And do you know about when that was?

A. I think that was '97 or '98.

Q. And do you recall where that convention -- I am sorry. 

You said it was in Chicago. Do you recall where it was in 

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Chicago, what hotel?

A. I think it was close to the Midway Airport in Chicago, a 

hotel close to there.

Q. And who did you see there that you have testified about 

earlier in this case? Did any of the individuals that you 

have testified about, did you see them there at that IAP 

convention?

A. Yeah, I saw most of the persons that I know, I saw them 

there, right.

Q. Did you see the Defendants there, any of the Defendants?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Which ones do you recall seeing there?

A. I saw Shukri Abu Baker, I saw Mohammad El-Mezain, I don't 

remember Ghassan, but of course Mufid because of The Rock 

band.

Q. And as far as -- Do you remember who the speakers were?

A. I remember there was some kind of like what they call the 

crossfire between Mohamed Siam and Gazi el-Husseini. Mohamed 

Siam represented the Hamas view of the current peace process, 

and Husseini represented the PLO over the peace process the 

Oslo agreement.

Q. And before I forget, I want to go back to Jamil Hamami. 

And to your knowledge did he ever leave Hamas?

A. He was -- 

MR. DRATEL: Object as to foundation, Your Honor. 

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THE COURT: He may ask that--"To your knowledge did 

he ever leave."

THE WITNESS: He was kicked out of Hamas, yes, sir.

Q. What was the reason for that?

A. Okay. I think he was forced out of Hamas in -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection, Your Honor. He said, "I 

think he was."

THE WITNESS: I am saying the year.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I am talking about the year. I think 

it was '94. But he was forced out of Hamas in I think the 

year '94 or '95. But the reason for that was because there 

was a conference held in Copenhagen, Denmark called the 

Intellectuals Peace Conference, intellectuals from among the 

Israelis and among the Palestinians, to discuss the issue of 

coexistence between the two people, the Israelis and the 

Palestinians. And Jamil Hamami attended that conference and 

he was not supposed to attend the conference because he 

represented Hamas, and he was forced out of Hamas.

Q. Did Hamas ever make any public statements that you saw in 

your work with the IAP or the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yeah. I heard read that in the newspaper, and then later 

on it was on the islamicinfo.info. That is one of Hamas' 

websites in London.

Q. What is the name of the website?

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A. Palestine which is P-A-L-E-S-T-I-N-E, palestineinfo.info.

Q. And whose website is that?

A. That is for Hamas website in London, United Kingdom.

Q. Did Hamas in any of its publications make a statement 

about Jamil Hamami being kicked out?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What kind of publications did you see that in?

A. It was a statement that Jamil Hamami is no longer -- It 

was from what you call the media center or media office, that 

Jamil Hamami is no longer with the Hamas group.

Q. Where did you see that? What type of documents or 

publications did you see that statement produced in?

A. That was later in '96, the internet was becoming popular 

but slow, so it was on the website that I gave you. 

Q. Were there magazines or newsletters published by the IAP?

A. Yes, there was a newspaper published by the IAP.

Q. And you said the IAP was a part of Hamas after the 

Intifada. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes, sir.

Q. What magazines or publications were put out by the IAP?

A. There is a newspaper, monthly newspaper called the 

Al-Zaytouna, the olive.

Q. Al-Zaytouna?

A. A-L Z-A-Y-T-O-U-N-A.

Q. What other publications were put out by the IAP?

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A. They had also other books, tapes, songs, songs and tapes, 

and things kind of --

Q. I am talking about newspapers or magazines. What other 

newspapers or magazines did you receive?

A. Before Al-Zaytouna there was a publication, a bi-weekly 

publication called Illa Falistine to Palestine. It was eight 

by eleven newsletter, about probably 20, 15 pages, before 

Al-Zaytouna came. And also they were sponsoring a magazine 

called Falistine al-Muslimah A-L M-U-S-L-I-M-A-H, the Islamic 

Palestine. This magazine is published in London, United 

Kingdom. They used to sponsor getting this magazine here and 

distribute it to members for subscription.

Q. And was that considered a Hamas publication?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said the IAP distributed it in the United States?

A. Correct.

Q. Was it in Arabic or English?

A. It was in Arabic.

Q. And with regard to Illa Falistine, was that considered a 

Hamas publication?

A. It was mainly -- Not mainly, totally about Hamas, yes.

Q. And did the Occupied Land Fund or later the Holy Land 

Foundation advertise in those publications?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. Were you ever represented or listed as a Holy Land 

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Foundation representative?

A. In Georgia, yes.

Q. In Georgia?

A. Correct.

Q. And were there other representatives around the country 

that were similar to you?

A. Right.

Q. Have you ever in the time that you were -- Have you ever 

made trips to Dallas in connection with any of these 

activities with regard to the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Correct.

Q. How many trips to Dallas did you make?

A. I made one trip in 1998.

Q. And what was the purpose of the trip? What was going on?

A. There was a conference held by Holy Land Foundation in 

Dallas here, and there were some people called to attend that 

conference from the United States and outside the United 

States. And from the United States I was invited. Outside of 

the United States there were people from different countries 

and there were people, officials from the government of the 

Palestinian Authority, the Jordanian government, the Lebanese 

government. Officials were present at that conference.

Q. Did you see the Defendant Mohammad El-Mezain did you see 

him there?

A. Correct.

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Q. Shukri Baker?

A. Correct.

Q. Ghassan Elashi?

A. Correct.

Q. Do you recall if Mufid Abdulqader was there?

A. No.

Q. And how about Abdulrahman Odeh? Do you know if he was 

there?

A. I don't really recall him being there.

Q. And what was the focus or the subject matter of this 

conference?

A. Now, when Shukri started talking about the aim of the 

conference was that the Holy Land Foundation now is trying to 

move from like just like a regular organization to be an 

official organization within, he mentioned the United Nations, 

that they will have charter with the United Nations as a 

non-profit organization, the NOGs [sic}, and also start 

dealing directly with the officials in the countries instead 

of dealing with the organizations, such as the Islamic Society 

and so on, but now they will start dealing with officials in 

the Palestinian Authority, the Jordanian government, the 

Lebanese government. That is why they were invited to that 

conference.

Q. During this time, however, was the Holy Land Foundation 

still supporting the same organizations that it had 

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previously?

A. Correct.

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor; the same 

objection. 

THE COURT: Overruled. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Was Shukri Baker the moderator or master 

of ceremonies of this meeting?

A. Correct.

Q. I believe you mentioned you were familiar with an 

individual named Sheikh Kofahi. I think you named him 

earlier. 

A. Yes.

Q. Was he an individual that the Holy Land Foundation 

brought to the United States to speak and raise money?

A. Correct.

Q. And did you ever see him in Georgia?

A. He came I think two times to Rome.

Q. And did anyone from the Holy Land Foundation come with 

him?

A. No, the two times he came by himself.

Q. Do you know how he -- Did the Holy Land Foundation have 

any involvement with his coming? Did they pay for his trip or 

let you know or arrange it?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor; leading and 

basis; foundation.

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THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase, counsel? 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What, if any, involvement did the Holy 

Land Foundation have with him coming to Rome, Georgia?

A. They paid for his ticket and they paid for his coming to 

the United States.

Q. And what was -- Who was he raising money for?

A. For the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. And did he do that in Rome?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And I am sorry. You said this was about what time?

A. I think this was in '99.

Q. And do you recall -- Did he give a speech or speeches 

while he was in Rome?

A. Okay. When Kofahi came into Georgia, we had two 

functions; one in the city of Atlanta where there was also -- 

It was during Ramadan. We had iftar there for the fasting, 

and people came in and donated money and he was -- There was 

collection of $80,000 in the city of Atlanta. Then we had him 

in Rome, and the same thing. We did the same program in Rome 

on a small scale, and there was about the same amount of money 

collected in the city of Rome.

Q. And was anyone from the Holy Land Foundation present at 

either one of those fundraising events, either in Atlanta or 

Rome?

A. No.

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Q. Were they aware of them?

A. Yeah, yeah. Me and Haitham were in contact during Kofahi 

visit to Georgia.

Q. And how much money was -- If you recall, about how much 

money was raised by Sheikh Kofahi on that trip to Rome?

A. That is what I am saying. In Atlanta I think it was 

about like $86,000 and in Rome about the same amount, about 

$80,000.

Q. Was there any response or reaction to the amounts raised 

by anyone from the Holy Land Foundation?

A. They praised it. I mean, I am sorry, if I understand the 

question correctly.

Q. Well, did anyone in the Holy Land Foundation say anything 

about the amounts raised in Atlanta versus the amounts raised 

in Rome?

A. Oh, yeah. I remember Haitham made a statement that 

Atlanta now is becoming better than Rome in collecting money, 

because Haitham made a statement -- Because this was in '98. 

Around '96 or '97 I think the amount of Rome was like $50,000 

$60,000 and wasn't the usual $100,000 or $150,000, and so it 

looks like now Atlanta is becoming a competitive place with 

Rome.

Q. Did Sheikh Kofahi talk about Hamas?

A. To be honest, in these two trips he did not mention Hamas 

by the name. His main concern was the collection of money to 

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the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Did he talk about jihad?

A. The jihad by money, yes.

Q. And what did he say about jihad by money?

A. That this is an obligation.

Q. And did he say anything about the Holy Land Foundation to 

the audience?

A. Yes. He was always praising the Holy Land Foundation as 

"This is your clean hands or clean middle hand to take your 

money to the needy and the poor in the occupied territories."

Q. During the time that you were involved with either the 

Occupied Land Fund or the IAP or the Holy Land 

Foundation, -- Strike that. 

You have testified that the IAP when Hamas was created 

became a part of Hamas. Is that correct? 

A. Correct.

Q. And what would be your testimony with regard to the Holy 

Land Foundation as to its relationship? Was it a part of 

Hamas?

A. Correct.

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor; same bases.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) What was your answer?

A. Correct.

Q. And the places where the money that was received by the 

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Holy Land Foundation before the designation of Hamas and then 

after the designation of Hamas, was that ultimately the same 

-- for the benefit of the same organization?

A. Correct.

Q. You have stated a couple of times that you went to jail 

and that you are in jail. You are in custody now. Correct?

A. Right. I am custody of the Bureau of Prisons. Correct.

Q. And what did you do that led to your being in jail?

A. After the closure of the Holy Land Foundation in 2001, I 

used to get money and send it to my father and to my 

father-in-law in Gaza. I asked my father to give money to 

Ahmed Bhar, Hamas. I am sorry. Ahmed Nimer in Khan Yunis, 

and my father-in-law to give money to Ahmed Bhar in Gaza city.

Q. Are both of these men Hamas leaders?

A. Correct.

Q. What about with regard to your employer? Did you take 

money from your employer?

A. Correct.

Q. And what was your job at Alexandria Carpets, or whatever 

the company was called?

A. I was really doing too many jobs there. I was overseeing 

the shipping, accounts receivable, accounts payable.

Q. And how did you take money from your employer?

A. With the commission on the shipping overseas.

Q. Did you inflate the commission?

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A. Right.

Q. And were you working with someone else in another company 

to accomplish this?

A. Correct.

Q. And these inflated commissions, what would you all do, 

you and this other person, what would you all do with this 

money?

A. This is like a kickback commission on the shipping, that 

he will take a portion of it and I will take a portion of it.

Q. Did you -- How much money did you end up acquiring by 

that method?

A. About $240,000.

Q. And what did you do with some of that money?

A. Some of the money I used it in my home, other was sent 

overseas.

Q. Did you build an apartment in Gaza?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you put an addition onto your house?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you pay your bills with that money?

A. Correct.

Q. And did you -- Obviously you kept this from your 

employer. This was done without his knowledge or consent. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. And were you eventually charged in federal court with a 

crime?

A. Correct.

Q. And were you charged with providing material support to 

Hamas through the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Correct.

Q. Did you plead guilty to that charge?

A. Correct.

Q. And were you sentenced?

A. Correct.

Q. What sentence did you receive?

A. Ninety-two months.

Q. Ninety-two months?

A. I pleaded guilty for 15 years. They brought it down from 

life to 15, and then to 92 months.

Q. In your pleading guilty to the charge of providing 

material support to Hamas through the Holy Land Foundation, 

the charge of defrauding your employer, was that also taken 

into consideration in that case?

A. Correct. That the money should be paid in restitution 

back to the company.

Q. And was that part of the judgment in the case that you 

had to make restitution to your employer?

A. Correct.

Q. And in your plea agreement did you make any agreements 

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with the Government about what you would do if asked by the 

Government?

A. Yeah. The plea agreement is to say the truth and to 

being honest in saying the truth.

Q. Did the Government ask you or indicate to you that it 

might interview you or perhaps call you as a witness in other 

cases in areas in which you might have knowledge?

A. Correct. That is when we started, the plea agreement 

came down from life to 15, that you will be called to testify 

in cases. Right.

Q. And the prosecuting office that this agreement was struck 

with was which prosecuting office?

A. The Atlanta Rome prosecution office.

Q. And of the U.S. Attorney's Office in Atlanta?

A. Right.

Q. And what was your understanding about what was expected 

of you if asked by the Government?

A. The Government asked me in order for them to recommend 

this kind of reduction to the federal judge, that I will be 

called to testify, and my testimony that I should say the 

truth.

Q. And what would the Government -- Did the Government make 

any kind of agreement as to what it would do if you complied 

with their request, if they were to call you as a witness 

anywhere and you were to testify, did the Government make any 

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kind of agreement as to what action they would do in exchange 

for that cooperation?

A. They would recommend a sentence cut to the federal judge.

Q. What is your understanding about whether or not the judge 

has to accept that recommendation or whether he can do 

something else? What is your understanding?

A. He can either approve it or disapprove it.

Q. What is your understanding about who decides, first of 

all, whether your sentence is changed at all? What is your 

understanding about who decides that?

A. That is the federal judge.

Q. And what is your understanding about who decides how 

much, if any, sentence change you would get?

A. The federal judge.

Q. Was there a period of time after you pled guilty that you 

were not sent to prison, not incarcerated, and -- Let me ask 

it one step at a time. Was there a period of time after you 

pled guilty that you were not incarcerated right away?

A. I was taken into the custody of the FBI.

Q. And during that time period were you meeting with either 

FBI agents or prosecutors?

A. Correct.

Q. And about how long did that time period cover?

A. About four months.

Q. And after that time period did you at some time report to 

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a federal prison to start serving your sentence?

A. Correct. 

MR. JACKS: May I have a moment, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Sir, with regard to the testimony that 

you gave yesterday and today, have you told the truth 

according to the -- As you are expected and were requested to 

do?

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor; bolstering.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) And I may not have made this clear, but I 

wanted to ask you, you said that before Hamas was designated 

and then after Hamas was designated, the Holy Land Foundation 

gave to the same organizations. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And who was -- Who benefited or who controlled or who 

were those organizations affiliated with?

A. They were founded and controlled by Hamas.

MR. JACKS: I pass the witness, Your Honor. 

MR. CLINE: May we approach for a moment, Your 

Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

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MR. CLINE: Mr. Jacks, not unexpectedly, brought out 

that the man has been convicted and that his plea involves the 

Holy Land Foundation and his activities with the Holy Land 

Foundation. We would like an instruction to the jury that 

they may consider his conviction only as it bears upon this 

man's credibility and not as evidence of any Defendants' guilt 

in the case.

THE COURT: And that would normally be in the 

Court's charge to the jury anyway, but you want an instruction 

now?

MR. CLINE: Yes, please. 

THE COURT: Anybody ready to start cross? 

MS. MORENO: I will be, Your Honor.

MR. WESTFALL: Unless we can just break for the day.

THE COURT: Let's work until 1:00. Let's work until 

1:00.

MS. CADEDDU: Not after 1:00? 

THE COURT: We are obviously not going to finish the 

cross, so no.

MS. MORENO: I can finish at 1:00, Your Honor. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will start the 

cross examination in a minute and work until 1:00. 

As we discussed, you heard testimony that Mr. Shorbagi 

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has been convicted of a felony offense related to the Holy 

Land Foundation, and the instruction is you may not consider 

the fact that he pled guilty to that in any way as to the 

guilt or innocence of these Defendants. In other words, he 

has pled guilty. You will have to make the judgment about 

these Defendants based on the evidence that has been presented 

here. That testimony is only admissible so you can consider 

his credibility, as to how that might weigh on his 

credibility.

Ms. Moreno? 

MS. MORENO: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Moreno: 

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Shorbagi. 

A. Hello. 

Q. My name is Linda Moreno, and I represent Ghassan Elashi. 

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. I am not going to question you really about the 

conditions of your agreement with the Government with respect 

to your conviction, but I just wanted to make one thing clear 

because I can't see you from where I sit. 

I believe that you said that the conviction, as you 

understood it, the time that you could serve, it went from 

life to 15 years to 92 months so far. Is that right, sir? 

A. Correct.

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Q. Okay. I want to go back to yesterday when you began your 

direct testimony with Mr. Jacks. 

A. Okay.

Q. And I think that you -- You talked about being born in 

Khan Yunis. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And I think you were there for the first 18 years of your 

life?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And then you came to America. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And correct me if I am wrong, but you talked about 

growing up under the Israeli occupation. 

A. Correct.

Q. And you said that it was all you knew and it was all 

around you. 

A. Correct.

Q. Is that right, sir?

A. Right.

Q. And you talked about that in the occupation what you saw 

growing up was the destruction and the killing. Do you 

remember that?

A. Correct.

Q. Can you discuss that a little more, please?

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I object to the form of the 

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question. It is open-ended and doesn't focus on a specific 

question or answer. Just "can you discuss that a little 

more," I will object to it. 

THE COURT: I will overrule it at this point. Go 

ahead and answer that. 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) Thank you. 

A. I am sorry. Say the question again, please.

Q. I am asking you to describe what you saw and what you 

experienced when you talked to Mr. Jacks about growing up 

under the occupation. 

A. Okay. In 1948 when Israeli came to exist, a lot of 

Palestinians were forced to leave their homes from big cities 

such as Haifa and so on, and those people were forced to leave 

their homes and live in refugee camps in the Gaza Strip and 

West Bank, or refugee camps, Lebanon. They are still since 

1948 living in refugee camps. 

My father originally is from Khan Yunis. My mother was 

one of the ones who was forced to leave their home in Haifa 

and lived in Khan Yunis. So my father is a resident of Khan 

Yunis, and we have a farm there. My mother is a refugee from 

Haifa. But so -- We never lived in the refugee camp. We 

lived in a home, but I have friends in the refugee camps, so I 

used to go visit these friends.

Q. When you say the refugee camps, Mr. Shorbagi, this is a 

refugee camp in Khan Yunis where you are from?

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A. Yes, ma'am. There is a refugee camp I used to have 

friends that I would go by and visit, or the school I attended 

going through it -- 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, again I object to the 

narrative. This was not the subject of my questions. His 

answers were non-responsive to my questions, if the Court 

would like to look back, and so I object to the narrative. 

THE COURT: Okay. Well, at some point you have go 

back to question and answer, but I overrule that objection. 

Go ahead.

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) You can answer, sir. 

A. So yes. What was your question about the refugee camp? 

Q. You established that the refugee camp where you had 

friends was in Khan Yunis. Is that correct?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And you were talking about growing up and what you saw in 

terms of the occupation there before you left and came to 

America. 

A. Correct.

Q. Let me ask you something. You -- You talked about going 

to jail, and you talked about your three-year-old son 

yesterday. Do you remember that?

A. Right, yes.

Q. And I think, sir, you said that your son knows more about 

Hamas. Do you remember saying that?

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A. Knows more about Hamas, more and Fatah, more than me.

Q. And I think you said something like which uncle is Hamas 

and which uncle is Fatah. Do you remember that?

A. Correct. Because I got cousins working for the Hamas 

executive force, and I got two nephews working for the Hamas 

executive force, and I have a brother working for the Hamas 

border security, and I got other brothers working for Fatah. 

So the brothers are divided into these two groups. The 

cousins are also divided into these two groups, so that is 

like -- that is the talk of the town, as they say. So he is 

around the small cousins or the big cousins or the uncles, so 

that is the talk of the town. You have the two groups 

discussing the issues of Hamas and Fatah.

Q. And Hamas and Fatah are the opposing political parties in 

the occupied territories. 

A. They are the major two groups there. Correct.

Q. And they are rivals. They oppose each other. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it is not uncommon in families, would you agree, Mr. 

Shorbagi, it is not uncommon in Palestinian families to have 

members who are pro-Fatah and members who are pro-Hamas? 

A. My father is pro-Hamas my mother is pro-Fatah. The 

family is always divided like that.

Q. Now, let me ask you, do you agree with me that people can 

change their opinions as they get older?

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MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I am going to object; 

relevance. 

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I am sorry? 

Q. (BY MS. MORENO) I will try it again. Do you agree with 

me, sir, that as we grow up and we get older, our opinions can 

change about things?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. People who may have in their youth perhaps supported 

Fatah, is it your personal experience that you have come 

across people who have changed their support from Fatah to 

Hamas, or the other way around?

A. An example of that, I was pro-Fatah. There was, of 

course, no Hamas but then later on in the years I changed.

Q. Okay. And is that an experience that you found common in 

the Palestinian community where you grow up?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Okay. So you originally began as someone who was 

pro-Fatah. Is that correct? When you were younger?

A. Fatah was the only organization really in the West Bank 

and Gaza. That is like -- The time I grow up in the '70s and 

the '80s was only Fatah. There was other PLO factions, but 

they were not really more of interest to me than Fatah, yes, 

ma'am.

Q. And in fact, I think in interviews that you have given 

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you have actually -- currently you feel that you are not only 

pro-Hamas but you are also pro-Fatah with respect to your 

support to certain of their ideas. Isn't that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And being pro-Hamas, what does that really mean? When 

you say you are a supporter of Hamas, what did you mean by 

that?

A. I mean by that when it comes to the money they are the 

truly honestly the clean hands there are when it comes to the 

money. Fatah is very corrupted people when it comes to the 

money. They use their money -- I mean, there are too many 

examples, but they use their money for their own. The money 

is given by United States, by European Union, you talk about 

hundreds of millions of dollars. 

Like in the city of Gaza, there is a refugee camp there 

called the Beach refugee camp. I have uncles living in homes 

close to the refugee camp from my mother's side. So I used to 

go pray in the mosque there, the Beach mosque. So I knew the 

refugee camp is there and the refugee camp. 

When the Palestinian Authority came in in '94 -- I will 

give you an example. Mahmoud Abbas, the current boss of the 

Palestinian Authority, built a mansion that cost $7 million 

just two miles away from that refugee camp. So people still 

lived in the refugee camp. The prime minister built another 

mansion that cost $5 million, and people still lived in the 

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refugee camp. So those people are terribly corrupted when it 

comes to money.

Q. You said I think in your interviews that you supported -- 

you were pro-Fatah because you supported the peace programs?

A. Correct. I supported the two-state solution, which is 

supported by almost the whole world, including the President 

of the United States.

Q. So even though you told this jury yesterday in response 

to Mr. Jacks' question that you are a supporter of Hamas, you 

are a supporter of the two-state solution. Is that right?

A. Correct, yes, ma'am.

Q. Now, you told Mr. Jacks yesterday I think that in 1991 

you went back to Gaza. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. How old were you in 1991?

A. Twenty-seven.

Q. Twenty-seven. And then you -- I think you said you 

stayed five months and you got married?

A. Correct.

Q. And then you came back to America. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, in 1991 how many years had the first Intifada been 

going on?

A. It started in December '87, so it went '88, '89, and part 

of '90, three years almost.

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Q. And in 1991, the Occupied Land Fund, to your knowledge, 

was collecting donations for the needy in the occupied 

territories. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And when I say the needy, and you were in the occupied 

territories in 1991, please describe what you saw with respect 

to the condition of the people who were being helped by the 

Occupied Land Fund. 

A. Okay. Israel has a policy of demolishing homes of 

so-called suspected terrorists, so if someone is doing any 

kind of activity against the Israeli army, either by throwing 

stones or molotov bombs, so they will demolish their home. So 

you got a family living in a shelter because of a demolished 

home. 

You got families there that don't have any resources. 

You got a lot of needy families there because of the continued 

closure of the occupied territories that they need the basic 

needs for living. So as I said, you got the two groups there, 

the Hamas and the Fatah, and these two groups try to take care 

of these needy people.

Now, in order for someone like me to send money, I will 

send money to the Holy Land Foundation and the Holy Land 

Foundation will send it to these organizations that is founded 

or supported by Hamas, because I know and they know that this 

money or that money will reach to the needy people.

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Q. Let me ask you something. In 1991 I think you said that 

you went to Gaza. Is that right?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. But you didn't go to the West Bank. Is that correct?

A. I cannot go to the West Bank, no.

Q. And you left when you were 18 years old originally. 

Correct?

A. Correct. Correct.

Q. Now, during that 18-year period of time you lived in 

Gaza. Is that right?

A. Khan Yunis.

Q. Khan Yunis. I am sorry. And did you ever go into the 

West Bank then?

A. No, ma'am.

Q. So you have never been to the West Bank. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you have never visited, then, any of the zakat 

committees personally in the West Bank. 

A. No, ma'am.

Q. All right. A few questions about these IAP leaflets and 

the magazines, the media surrounding the conferences. You 

were asked about Palestine Day. Do you remember that? You 

were asked about Palestine Day by Mr. Jacks. 

A. Right. I am sorry. Yes.

Q. The Palestine Day that -- I guess it was one day that was 

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devoted to the issues of Palestine. Is that correct?

A. Correct. That is during the MAYA convention. Correct.

Q. During the MAYA convention. And during that particular 

day was there education going on about what the conditions 

were in Palestine? Is that fair?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And that was through books and videos and 

leaflets. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And through speeches. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And now, you indicated at some point in time you were 

assigned to the media, that you were assigned to watch 

American television. 

A. Correct.

Q. Do you remember that?

A. Correct.

Q. During this period of time when the Palestine Days were 

being organized at these conventions, and as someone who was 

watching the media, did you see that the conditions in 

Palestine were being accurately reported in the American 

media?

A. During the first Intifada, the '88, '89, '90, '91, that 

is correct. There was an accurate presentation, because it 

was like a full coverage of what is going on in the stone 

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throwing and demolition of homes and so on. That is correct.

Q. What about the second Intifada?

A. No.

Q. No meaning? What do you mean by no?

A. Okay. I will tell you. Like there is a scale there. I 

would say the coverage of the first Intifada in the United 

States media was probably 80 percent. The second Intifada was 

probably five percent.

Q. And when you talk about the stone throwing in the first 

Intifada, you are talking about some of those pictures that we 

have seen in the videos of people throwing stones at tanks. 

Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And those tanks were Israeli tanks. Correct?

A. Correct. Correct.

Q. Because the Palestinians, they don't have any tanks, do 

they?

A. No.

Q. Now, you talked with Mr. Jacks about some Holy Land 

projects in 1994 and 1995. 

A. 1994 and 1995. That is correct, yes.

Q. And I think you mentioned, Mr. Shorbagi, food packages 

and school supplies. 

A. Correct.

Q. And what were in those food packages?

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A. They had the necessity, needs for the families, like I am 

not really sure, like rice, wheat or flour, canned vegetables, 

sugar, tea, stuff of that nature.

Q. And were these -- So these were actually packages of food 

that were being sent to the occupied territories. Is that 

right?

A. No, no. The money will be sent by the Holy Land 

Foundation to these organizations we talked about, and these 

organizations will buy from the stores there or from the 

business people will buy big amounts buying them wholesale, 

and then they have a center there and they will divide it into 

packages inside the territories there.

Q. So it is your understanding that all the food was 

purchased there in the occupied territories?

A. Correct.

Q. And do you have any knowledge of food, flour, rice, or 

wheat that was actually sent from outside of the occupied 

territories to there?

A. I knew that like countries like Egypt and so on sometimes 

used to send food across the border.

Q. I am talking about Holy Land Foundation. 

A. No, ma'am, I am not aware of that, no.

Q. You talked about school supplies, sir.

A. Correct.

Q. And what did you mean by the school supplies?

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A. The basic supplies for students in school, like pencils, 

papers, sometimes because in school you have to buy the 

textbooks, like for the second grade such and such textbook, 

so all of this will be in a package, and they will be given 

like the first grade book for first grade, second grade for 

the second grade; so these things, the supplies for the whole 

year for the student.

Q. And that would include backpacks as well, school 

backpacks?

A. That is correct. I am sorry. Yes. That is correct.

Q. You said that the projects moved from that to the 

hospital?

A. Yes.

Q. And you described a particular hospital, and I think you 

said it was moderate. Do you remember that?

A. Right.

Q. And that this was a hospital in Khan Yunis. Yes, sir?

A. Correct. The Peace Hospital.

Q. And that most of the time I think you said there is 

closure. What did you mean by that; that the hospital was 

closed?

A. No, no. The territory is closed. When the Israelis took 

over the Gaza Strip or the West Bank they divided the cities, 

like Gaza is divided from Khan Yunis by an Israeli military 

post. Khan Yunis is divided from Rafah, another city, by an 

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Israeli military post. And the whole border is sealed, so 

nothing can go in or out to Gaza without the permission of the 

Israelis.

Q. And are you saying that even medicine and medical 

supplies cannot go into the territories?

A. Correct.

Q. And so part of what you knew that the Holy Land 

Foundation was doing was actually sending those kinds of 

supplies, medical supplies to in particular this hospital?

A. Now, this hospital, the Holy Land Foundation started this 

hospital not by sending -- Because it was like what happened, 

they send the money, the money was used to buy the building, 

and then they used money to buy machines. I am not really 

sure. The machines were bought in Germany or -- Or I am not 

sure.

Q. Medical machines?

A. Yes. So the machines were shipped to that building, and 

then money was sent to buy medication. I am not sure if they 

bought medication and sent it to the hospital.

Q. Okay. You also mentioned the Hebron public library -- 

A. Correct.

Q. -- was a project of the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And this was -- Are there many public libraries 

throughout the occupied territories?

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A. No, ma'am.

Q. To your knowledge?

A. No. Because you got occupation there, there is no supply 

of public libraries.

Q. You mentioned the wells project. 

A. Yes.

Q. And you are talking about clean water when you are saying 

wells. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. What is the problem with clean water in the occupied 

territories?

A. It is not the problem of clean water. There is no supply 

of water, so people has to really go to other places to buy 

their water or get their water. So a lot of communities 

living in places that they don't have access to water, so 

building a well in the community that will save them a lot of 

headache by going to other places and get the water.

Q. Because there is no infrastructure for that, sir?

A. Correct.

Q. And finally, I think in one of your interviews you were 

talking about the situation in the occupied territories, and I 

think you said if you leave people with no hope they will do 

terrible things. Do you remember saying that?

A. In one of my interviews? 

Q. Yes. 

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A. Correct, yes, ma'am.

Q. Do you agree with me that when you feed people, and you 

give them water, and you give them books, that you give them 

hope, sir?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. All right. 

MS. MORENO: Pass the witness.

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and break here for the 

day, and see you back Monday morning at 9:00. Please recall 

the instructions we have been over about not discussing the 

case with anyone. 

Let's keep it quiet. I am talking to the jury, and we 

need to be quiet until we finish. 

Please recall the instructions that we have been over. 

Do not discuss the case with anyone or let anyone talk to you 

about it, watch any reports about it. And we will see you 

back Monday morning, 9:00. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: I have to ask the people coming into the 

courtroom, yesterday we were having a hearing up here with the 

lawyers and we couldn't hear. There are so many people in 

here, and I don't want have to close the courtroom, but we 

need to make sure while we are in here we don't make a lot of 

noise. Don't talk. There is business being transacted. 

And you are welcome to be here, entitled to be here, but 

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we have to have an atmosphere where we can operate and do what 

we need to do here. So I ask you to remember that when you 

are ready to start talking to someone, wait until you move 

outside the courtroom. 

Let me see the lawyers up here for just a minute. 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

THE COURT: Was there some issues we needed to 

address that we discussed about saving for the break? 

MR. DRATEL: The redaction issue on the 302s.

THE COURT: Right. 

MR. WESTFALL: I had my one issue on the exhibits.

THE COURT: What was that? 

MR. WESTFALL: There is evidence out there, and it 

came in in the last trial, that my client Abdul Odeh sponsored 

children of a guy named Yehya Ayyash. We were given our 

exhibits and our exhibit list before trial. Of course, I am 

very interested in that issue. 

I combed through those exhibits and there was not a 

single scrap of information about my client's relationship 

with Ayyash, and it was so noticeably absent that I concluded 

that they had made a strategic decision that they weren't 

going to do that, for one reason or another. It is a bit of a 

double-edged sword, so it is not an unreasonable decision for 

them to make. 

I made the decision I was not going to open on it, I 

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didn't open on it, I have never mentioned it to the jury, and 

the first time I have ever seen anything in this trial about 

it was on Tuesday, actually in an unrelated exhibit. It 

mentioned that my client had an orphan in some of the Deeb 

Anees stuff. Okay? Well, then yesterday we get exhibits that 

were not included on the exhibit list and these -- 

THE COURT: Which exhibit list? Like the original? 

MR. WESTFALL: Or any amended list, any since then. 

And in there this is the exhibits they are going to prove up 

that the Holy Land Foundation gave money to special segments, 

and in this proof they are going to prove that my guy 

sponsored this orphan.

Now, I have spoken with Barry about this. I am not 

imputing any sort of malice aforethought or anything like 

that, but I have relied, clearly to my detriment, on their 

list, and I ask the Court to please consider excluding that 

one fact. It will not affect their proof on the special 

segments one little bit. It wouldn't affect the fact that the 

Holy Land Foundation actually supported the children of Yehia 

Ayyash. The only fact I am asking to be excluded is the fact 

my client sponsored him. That is the only fact, and it won't 

affect their proof on anything. 

MR. JONAS: It does. It affects his client. And 

let me start off and do the mea culpa. I thought these were 

on the exhibit list. It is my fault that they weren't. It is 

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a group of exhibits pertaining to a certain portion of Agent 

Burns' testimony. The fact that I left off this group when I 

transmitted my exhibits to our support staff to create the 

exhibit list, it was inadvertent and I apologize for that. 

Clearly this issue isn't something that is a surprise to 

the Defense attorneys. Obviously Mr. Westfall said he was 

looking for the issue in the original list, so he knows that 

it is out there. 

As soon as I realized the error, which was the other day, 

I immediately instructed our support staff to gather the 

exhibits, give them new exhibit numbers, put them on a disk, 

and we have since turned them over. 

So as far as Mr. Westfall's reliance on them in his 

opening, the fact that he hasn't said anything at all about it 

in the opening, I don't think this is to his detriment. He 

can certainly address it in closing. It is not as if he went 

in opening and said, "My client didn't support any children 

who were the children of terrorist leaders."

MR. WESTFALL: That would have been suicidal.

MR. JONAS: I know. So I don't think -- It is 

almost a neutral fact. He can cover it in his closing. There 

is no prejudice or harm. I apologize to the Court and Defense 

counsel for turning this over late. It is my mistake. Here 

we are. We turned it over a week before we are going to get 

into it in Agent Burns' testimony.

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MR. WESTFALL: Well, I mean -- 

THE COURT: Anything else on that? 

MR. WESTFALL: Like I said, I mean, the fact 

remains, and whether it was pure hard empty head or a 

strategic decision on their part, I am not even arguing that. 

I am just saying that there is more -- There is more than just 

one little -- I mean, the fact that the entire class of proof 

as to that relationship between Yehya Ayyash and my client is 

missing, and it wasn't just like one little exhibit and there 

is -- The entire universe was missing. And I mean, I thought 

the whole reason for exhibit lists and all that was so that we 

could rely on them. And that is what I did. And the absence 

of that one little fact wouldn't affect their overall, you 

know, strategy, so I am asking the Court to exclude that one 

fact.

THE COURT: All right. Let me get back to that one. 

We have this list now.

MR. WESTFALL: Yes, sir. And this was the only 

exhibit that I could find that actually -- There are some 

others that kind of mention both of them, but it doesn't 

matter. This is the one -- did you find that other one? 

MR. JONAS: There is nothing -- There is other 

pieces of the puzzle that don't mention it, like you just 

said. They -- It is several exhibits I have to put together 

to come to the fact that Mr. Westfall's client was supporting 

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another orphan and immediately dropped that orphan to start 

sponsoring the orphan of Yehia Ayyash once he was killed by 

the Israelis. So these other pieces we have to put them 

together. I don't think there is one that is as clear as the 

one that Mr. Westfall is currently objecting to. That has 

Mr. Odeh's name on it. If you turn the page you can see 

that -- And there is a reference to a particular child.

MR. WESTFALL: Where is the evidence that he like 

immediately dropped, because that is your theory, that he 

immediately dropped an orphan.

MR. JONAS: Maybe immediately is not the right word.

MR. WESTFALL: I am talking about these actual 

documents.

THE COURT: So these are the actual documents that 

you are objecting to? 

MR. WESTFALL: Just that one. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I think there is other 

issues to be considered. This evidence was presented in the 

first trial, as Mr. Jonas said, so he knew it was out there. 

He knew it existed. He knew the Government had presented it. 

He certainly could have asked, you know, before he looked and 

didn't see it in there, he could have asked and said, "Are you 

going to go into this," and it would have brought it to our 

attention. 

But secondly, I mean, his statement that this has altered 

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or changed his trial strategy, that is not apparent to us. 

And so it is not something that is obviously visible. And 

again as I said, even if the development had been that at mid 

trial we thought, "Okay. This is something that we need to, 

now that we are in here and we see the way the issues are 

being framed," we would have been free to go get this evidence 

and use it. So I don't know that you can restrict the other 

side from presenting evidence that you know about, you know it 

exists, you know how it was intended to be used by the 

Government, and then somehow come in and say, "Well, this is 

my trial strategy. I am not going to tell you what it is, but 

this affects my trial strategy, and, therefore, you, the other 

side, shouldn't be able to use this evidence." 

And again his statement that this doesn't affect your 

case is a very erroneous statement, because if you --

THE COURT: Not accurate, from your perspective. 

All right. 

Anything else on that, then? Okay. 

I mean, you are not saying you would have tried the case 

any differently up to this point.

MR. WESTFALL: Well, sure I would have. I would 

have opened on it.

THE COURT: Other than opening.

MR. WESTFALL: I would have spoken with Agent Burns 

about it the first time, which is what I did in the last 

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trial. I brought it up to her before she brought it up to me, 

which is what I did in the last trial, and they know that. It 

is in the record.

MR. JONAS: Agent Burns hasn't testified about this 

yet. She will be testifying about it the next time.

MR. WESTFALL: She testified about it in the first 

trial because I asked her about it -- 

THE COURT: But you are still going to get that 

opportunity to ask her. I don't know what you are losing 

there. 

MR. WESTFALL: Well, I mean -- 

THE COURT: And opening on it, I mean, if the jury 

remembers anything anybody said on opening, I will take that 

bet, give or take a statement or two. 

MR. WESTFALL: I am also carefully cataloging all of 

Mr. Jacks' arguments here, because needless to say, I am going 

to have to meet this evidence.

THE COURT: I understand. And you don't have an 

obligation to ask him about it. Obviously nobody has an 

obligation to ask the other side about it, to call their 

attention to something that you may not want in there either. 

So that is not an issue. 

I think primarily -- I take what you say at face value, 

so it is not a bad faith issue, and I don't see the prejudice.

MR. WESTFALL: I am trying to be a very careful to 

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not argue that is not bad faith.

THE COURT: And you made that clear up front.

MR. JONAS: And I think Mr. Westfall knows that I am 

trying to be open and honest with all Defense counsel whenever 

they ask me questions.

THE COURT: Well, this is a big case. I mean, lots 

of things have happened as far as exhibits and the like. But 

I think -- I am not going to find bad faith. And I don't see 

any prejudice. You still are entitled -- I think you will be 

able to do whatever you are going to do with it in crossing 

Agent Burns. You still have that opportunity, and then you 

can address it in close. I don't see any prejudice to you, so 

likely I am going to let it in. I will give it a little 

thought, but that is what I am thinking right now.

MR. WESTFALL: You will see the prejudice when it 

happens.

THE COURT: I am sure I will. That is right. 

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, on the issue of exhibits, 

Ms. Shapiro and I do have those exhibits, and I think you were 

going to --

MS. SHAPIRO: Right. I pulled the prior filings 

just to save your staff from having to do that. I also pulled 

the motions you filed. That is what I was going to show you 

so you could check to see that all your filings were in there, 

and then we can just tender them to the Court so you will have 

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those. 

THE COURT: When are you going to be able to do 

that? 

MS. SHAPIRO: I have them right here. And I can 

show them to you and you can check to see that those are in 

there.

THE COURT: Good. And this is on -- Who are these 

exhibits on.

MS. SHAPIRO: Major Lior.

THE COURT: And he is coming up first thing Monday? 

MR. DRATEL: So we are interrupting? 

THE COURT: We are going to interrupt. 

MS. SHAPIRO: But he will be short?

MR. DRATEL: How long for your direct?

MS. SHAPIRO: About an hour.

THE COURT: Your direct will be about an hour, you 

are expecting.

MS. SHAPIRO: I think so. I mean, it went a little 

longer -- 

THE COURT: You are pretty accurate, unlike another 

member of your team.

MS. SHAPIRO: Last year we had interpreter issues. 

We had an interpreter who didn't really speak the language. 

MS. HOLLANDER: That is for sure.

MS. MORENO: Ms. Duncan also reminded me that in 

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last year's rulings Judge Fish did keep out some of the 

Palestinian Authority documents, and there is a -- 

MS. SHAPIRO: I included the transcript in the 

materials that I prepared for you. Also --

MS. MORENO: There is also -- I remember looking at 

the exhibit list when we first got it a month or so ago that 

there were photographs that had bin Laden in it. 

MS. SHAPIRO: I took them out.

MS. MORENO: Okay. I just learned that just now 

when you said it.

MS. SHAPIRO: Well, because when I sent you the 

exhibit list, if you looked at the exhibits -- 

MS. MORENO: Which exhibit list, counsel? 

MS. SHAPIRO: The one that I sent everybody a few 

days ago.

THE COURT: How many exhibits total are you -- 

MS. SHAPIRO: There is about 40.

THE COURT: And how many of those are you objecting 

to; all 40? I know you might have some general -- 

MS. MORENO: No, not necessarily. I am trying to 

figure out how early we need to be here Monday morning to 

address this. 

MS. MORENO: At least 8:30. I would ask the Court 

to look at all the exhibits. There is no question about it.

THE COURT: That is what I was getting at. That is 

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why I need the list today. 

And then how much time do you think we need to resolve 

this come Monday morning? 

MS. MORENO: I think 8:30.

THE COURT: We will just limit it to that.

MS. MORENO: And I will be prepared to argue.

THE COURT: We have one issue we want to take up, 

and there are five others we want to take up.

MS. SHAPIRO: Logistically the reason I wanted to 

put together all the pleadings for you is I think you will see 

that there has been a fairly exhaustive back and forth, both 

in the last trial and in the lead-up to this trial with the 

motions. So I think if you have that ahead of time, that will 

short circuit -- 

THE COURT: It could do that.

MS. SHAPIRO: Also with respect to the exhibits, I 

have taken many of the Palestinian Authority exhibits out, so 

when you go through the list I think as you are preparing you 

will see we are not offering all of the exhibits that we 

offered last year. 

And I did pull out any of the photographs of bin Laden 

that were in there, and compiled, again, a hard copy in a 

binder for Your Honor so that you have every exhibit that will 

be moved in, again just to make it easier and shorter. 

THE COURT: That will be helpful.

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MR. DRATEL: The exhibits themselves are short. It 

is not like a hundred pages. When we say exhibit now we are 

talking about a page.

THE COURT: Good.

MR. CLINE: Are you finished with that issue? 

MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, we had asked you I believe 

to look at some 302s involving Hamami a while back. I just 

wanted to remind the Court about that. We have heard about 

Hamami a fair amount, which I think is probably helpful in 

giving you some context for why we think it is Brady or 

possibly Giglio material.

THE COURT: Yes. And I plan on looking at those 

this weekend. 

MS. SHAPIRO: One final issue. With respect to the 

witness on Monday, I have not even been to the overflow 

courtroom. I don't know what it looks like or sounds like in 

terms of the camera direction. But the camera that they had 

last year was different than this year. Where the camera 

could just be redirected away from the witness, this year I 

understand the audio and visual are in one machine and they 

can't really be separated. And that will be an issue in terms 

of -- And I don't know if there is anybody up there or --

THE COURT: That brings up that issue. What do we 

need to do? Close the courtroom? Is that what Judge Fish 

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did, close the courtroom except for immediate family.

MS. SHAPIRO: Except for immediate family.

MS. HOLLANDER: And the other thing he did was he 

had the witness come in, because he comes with all his 

bodyguards and dudes.

MS. SHAPIRO: He has no bodyguards. He has a 

lawyer.

MS. HOLLANDER: He comes with dudes. He comes in 

the back way. What he did is have them, like you did with the 

prisoner, and come in and be there so the jury -- 

THE COURT: We will be here anyway handling an 

issue, so we will have him in before the jury.

MS. HOLLANDER: Last year the jury did see him a 

couple of times being escorted in and out, until we got it all 

worked out. 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: He is using an interpreter.

MS. SHAPIRO: There are two interpreters, because 

they need to switch off. Apparently that is the protocol 

because they get tired.

THE COURT: That is typical when people testify. 

MS. SHAPIRO: And again, I am hoping direct will be 

short and it won't be too tedious.

MR. CLINE: I have a scheduling issue that I would 

like to be up off the record.

THE COURT: Anything else need to be on the record? 

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One more thing and that is with respect to -- This 

witness is gone. 

I am a little concerned. Obviously I let you go into 

some of the conditions there because he brought it up, 

responsive or not, he got into, but I don't want that to be 

construed as opening the door to getting into what I have been 

limiting out. So I just wanted to make sure that we don't 

have to get into that again next week. 

Some of what he stated is fair ground. I still don't 

want to get into a lot of the Israeli-Palestinian politics 

because I think it is irrelevant, and it just muddles up the 

case.

MS. MORENO: Your Honor, just so that I can tell the 

Court what I was thinking -- 

THE COURT: And I overruled the objections to yours.

MS. MORENO: It is about the need.

THE COURT: I understand. Right. But this guy kind 

of takes off on everything else. We need to talk to him 

really more than anybody. I don't know that that will do any 

good. 

MS. CADEDDU: Speaking of talking to him, Your 

Honor, he is on cross now, so I just want to make sure we are 

all clear that he is on his own this weekend. 

THE COURT: I just thought about it when he answered 

a couple of your questions, because you were asking fairly 

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precise questions, but he just wants to just go off. The only 

one that I had a question was what the American media is 

portraying. I am not sure why that is relevant to anything. 

I thought of interrupting you, but tell me why you think that 

is relevant? 

MS. MORENO: Because they want to infer insidious 

terrorist implication into all of the literature, the 

conferences, the leaflets, the faxes.

THE COURT: What does that have to do with the 

American media? 

MS. MORENO: And they use the term "wanted to get 

their message out." Well, you know what? The Palestinians 

wanted to get the message out because the message wasn't 

getting out through the American media. That is my point, and 

I think it is a fair point, so that is why I asked the 

question. 

Getting the message out, Your Honor -- 

THE COURT: But what message is it that they are 

wanting to get out? 

MR. DRATEL: What is happening.

MS. MORENO: The need and the suffering of the 

Palestinians. Now, you can't ignore -- the reason there is 

that is because of the occupation. I mean, we just simply 

can't divorce it.

THE COURT: Right. That is why some of that is in 

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there, but we don't want to get into a lot of the details of 

that in terms of the politics and what is going on. That is 

what we want to avoid. And actually a lot of the details in 

general. You are entitled to show there is a need. I don't 

think there is any dispute about that. I understand that is 

your Defense, that that is what they were trying to meet, but 

I still am trying to keep it from getting too far out.

MR. DRATEL: I think we will be sufficiently focused 

with cross on either other areas or areas that are 

specifically covered in direct that need some clarification 

with respect to things that.

THE COURT: I just wanted to let you know where I 

was coming from--that that hasn't changed.

MR. WESTFALL: Can I say something on that? You 

remember Mr. Shafik said he reads Arabic newspapers, the idea 

that these are Hamas papers or a Hamas website, I mean, that 

is as much of an opinion as saying CNN is a Zionist -- You 

know. And everyone has got their own opinion over there. 

But from the standpoint of like this palestineinfo.info 

will report actual occurrences, actual things happening that 

would never get into the mainstream media. So the fact that 

somebody is looking at this palestineinfo.info, the quote 

unquote Hamas website, doesn't necessarily mean that they are 

Hamas, because they find out what is going on on the street in 

the middle of Gaza where CNN reporters don't go. And so that 

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is kind of the idea.

MS. MORENO: Thank you, counsel. It was a much 

better articulation.

MR. CLINE: I think, Your Honor, we understand your 

guidance, and we will comply with it. 

THE COURT: Do you want this on the record? 

MR. JACKS: No.

(Discussion at the bench, out of the hearing of the 

reporter.)

(End of day.)

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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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