IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( SEPTEMBER 23, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 7 OF 37

______________________________________________________________

STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242.

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 (214) 753-2349

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

MATTHEW LEVITT

Direct By MR. JONAS............................................. 5

Cross By MR. CLINE.............................................. 117

Cross By MS. HOLLANDER.......................................... 132

Cross By MR. WESTFALL........................................... 185

Cross By MS. CADEDDU............................................ 196

Government's Exhibits

Government's Exhibits Page

Pictures 7-14, 18-20 37

Demonstrative No. 13 55

Demonstrative No. 14 57

Designation 2 111

Designation 4 113

Designation No. 5 114

Federal Register 116

Defense Exhibits

Defense Exhibits Page

No. 963 120

No. 1052 127

No. 1013 154

No. 910 162

No. 1110 164

No. 87 172

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

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THE COURT: Good morning. Let's take up the issue 

of scheduling for tomorrow.

The services are in the afternoon, and my thinking was we 

will work until about 1:00, start at 9:00, and rather than 

take a lunch break and come back for an hour, we could only 

work an hour, and so we will work until 1:00 and break for the 

afternoon. That is my plan. You can think about it and we 

can discuss it. 

MR. CLINE: That is fine over here, Your Honor.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we have a witness that has 

giving us a very small window and is scheduled to come in 

tomorrow and land before noon. We were going to put him on 

the stand after that. He will probably be an hour on direct, 

and I don't know how long on cross.

THE COURT: I can do that, but the problem is we are 

going to leave at a certain time. All I can give you is that 

one hour.

MR. JONAS: What is the latest we could possibly 

get, if we needed it? 

THE COURT: We probably could come back about 1:30 

and come back until 2:30.

MR. JONAS: If possible, if we do this, and we will 

need to check with the witness and get back to the Court, but 

if we can shift the lunch hour so we can go earlier and we can 

get this witness on the stand hopefully by 12:45, if we can 

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try that. But we will let the Court know. And if not, the 

1:00 schedule is fine with us.

THE COURT: Well, just get back with me before the 

end of the day. Obviously we can work this out any time until 

tomorrow and see what the schedule is going to be. But it is 

going to be limited, what we can do. But I will certainly 

work with you. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, And if the Government needs 

to take somebody out of order, that will be fine.

MR. JONAS: In is a very busy individual, and trying 

to find a time for him is individual.

THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury, then?

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed. 

I see you came prepared today and have your sweaters on. 

I know some of you were complaining it was a little cool 

yesterday. 

We are ready to proceed.

Mr. Jonas.

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Good morning, Doctor Levitt. 

A. Good morning. 

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Q. Yesterday we finished the day talking about the Hamas 

charter, and in the charter, if you recall, there is a section 

about peace initiatives and being a waste of time. 

A. Correct.

Q. I want to talk to you this morning about something called 

the Oslo Accords. Are you familiar with the Oslo Accords?

A. I am.

Q. What are they?

A. Oslo Accords refers to a specific peace process, the 

major push in the peace process, inaugurated in 1993, and then 

a declaration of principles, ideas that would lead this peace 

process forward, were signed on the White House lawn. It was 

premised on a two-state solution; again, a compromise that 

would lead to a state of Israel alongside a state of Palestine 

which would be located in the Gaza strip and the West Bank. 

It was negotiated between the state of Israel and the 

Palestine Liberation Organization, the PLO. And it was a 

surprise to everybody. It was done in secret, secret 

negotiations in Oslo, the capital of Norway, thus the title.

Q. You are saying it ended with something on the White House 

lawn. And you also said that it was in secret between the 

Israelis and the PLO. First of all, why the PLO? Why was the 

PLO representing the Palestinian people?

A. As we said yesterday, since 1974 the PLO was given the 

position of being the sole legitimate representative of the 

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Palestinian people. They certainly were still at the time the 

most dominant faction within the Palestinian nationalist 

movement, and there were other negotiations being conducted at 

the same time in Washington at the State Department where 

Palestinians were part of a Jordanian delegation, local 

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. And that wasn't 

making much progress. 

Simultaneously, without the knowledge of the United 

States, even while those negotiations were going on in 

Washington, these secret negotiations at a very high level 

between very senior Israelis and very senior Palestinians were 

taking place in Oslo.

Q. You mentioned that the PLO was designated as a 

representative of the Palestinian people. Who designated them 

as such?

A. This was at the Arab League Rabat Conference in 1974.

Q. You mentioned that yesterday, but what is the Arab 

League?

A. This is a representative body of leaders of Arab 

countries, and so it is -- It was really more of a formality, 

but it was the voice of the Arab world putting this 

responsibility and authority on the shoulders of the Palestine 

Liberation Organization.

Q. You stated that there were negotiations going on in 

Washington simultaneous to the Oslo negotiations in Norway. 

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Did the United States have any part at all in those Oslo 

negotiations?

A. None at all; completely unaware and surprised.

Q. Did there come a time when those Oslo negotiations became 

public?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. In late 1993, and then they were signed in a ceremony on 

the White House lawn with the famous handshake between then 

Israeli Prime Minister Rabin and Yasser Arafat at the White 

House.

Q. Why did the United States get involved at that point?

A. The parties wanted the United States involvement. They 

wanted international legitimacy and backing for this process. 

They felt and recognized that a process like this would need 

major world powers, in particular the United States, to help 

push it along, and to push both parties to do what they had 

agreed to do.

Q. What did the Oslo agreements call for?

A. Well, it called for recognition, mutual recognition, 

Israel would recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization 

and the right of the Palestinian people to an independent 

state. The Palestine Liberation Organization would recognize 

Israel and the legitimacy of Israel and Israel's right to 

exist. And they agreed to pursue a negotiated compromised 

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settlement to this conflict through negotiation, and agreed to 

cease violence.

Q. Did it call for the Palestinian people to have their own 

legislative body or own governing body over West Bank and 

Gaza?

A. As this process developed, they negotiated a whole bunch 

of things. One of the things that they agreed upon was that 

there would be a Palestinian Authority. It was not yet really 

a government, but even before the creation of the Palestinian 

state there would be a Palestinian Authority, and that it 

would have elections, among other things, for the Palestinian 

legislative council, for a parliament or a congress.

Q. And did the Palestinian Authority come into being?

A. It did.

Q. Which group or party dominated the Palestinian Authority?

A. Yasser Arafat's Fatah party dominated.

Q. And again, Fatah is part of the PLO?

A. Correct.

Q. You mentioned yesterday that Hamas more recently in the 

past several years won the elections. Would that be the 

elections for the Palestinian Authority?

A. Yes.

Q. Elaborate on that just a little bit. 

A. Elections were held in January 2006. It was the first 

election, national election that is, in which Hamas agreed to 

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participate. And they did better than any other party in that 

election, and, therefore, were given the -- earned the 

authority to put together a government, which they did. 

The government, Hamas government, lasted only about a 

year, and in February 2007, after a lot of internal 

Palestinian conflict, an agreement was reached brokered by the 

Saudis for what they called a National Unity Government. It 

would be Hamas led, but it would include other parties; in 

particular the Fatah party, but other groups as well. 

That only lasted for less than six months, and in June of that 

year, in June of 2007, after again a significant amount of 

conflict, including violent conflict within the Palestinian 

community, Hamas turned its guns on Fatah in Gaza and 

violently, militarily took over the Gaza Strip

Q. What is the state of the Palestinian Authority today?

A. Divided. Hamas is the de facto government in Gaza, not 

recognized by anyone at this point, but the Palestinian 

Authority is only in control of the West Bank, and so you have 

this split situation.

Q. Okay. In the '90s after the Oslo Accords, was it split 

like this?

A. No.

Q. Palestinian Authority controlled West Bank and Gaza?

A. Correct.

Q. How did it interact with the Israeli government? Because 

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during that time period -- Withdrawn. In the '90s, up until 

this 2005 election you refer to when you referred to yesterday 

the Israelis withdrew from Gaza, through the '90s up until 

that point, how did the Palestinian Authority interact with 

the Israelis who were occupying the West Bank and Gaza?

A. There are really two periods that we have to break down 

within the period you laid out from the early '90s through 

2005. 

The Oslo process was supposed to take five years. The 

idea was for a Palestinian state to come into being within 

five years. The negotiations went forward, fits and starts, 

but the Palestinian Authority did take over control of almost 

all of the Gaza Strip and also very, very large segments of 

the West Bank, including all of the major towns and cities. 

The peace process did not conclude on time, however. In 

fact it has still not concluded, there were too many outlying 

issues, including Israel's feeling that the Palestinian 

Authority wasn't cracking down on terrorist groups like Hamas 

that were still conducting attacks, and the Palestinians' 

concern that the Israelis weren't removing Israeli 

settlements, communities in the West Bank from the West Bank, 

as well as the bigger issues of how to divide Jerusalem, et 

cetera.

That went on until September 2000. In September 2000, in 

the waning days of the Clinton administration, the United 

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States and its international partners, but primarily the 

United States, decided to try and give one last significant 

diplomatic push to this peace process at the very highest 

level. President Clinton was personally involved in the 

negotiations, which is practically unheard of. This was at 

Camp David again, like the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty in 

1979 was at Camp David. And after a marathon set of 

negotiations over about two weeks they ended without agreement 

again. 

At that time Palestinians started engaging in violence 

again, at first small scale violence like the Intifada we 

discussed yesterday--in fact, it was called a second 

Intifada--but very quickly it escalated into extreme violence 

and violence that was supported by the Palestinian Authority. 

So from 2000 for the next, really three or four years, 

there was a very, very sharp period of increased violence, by 

Hamas more than anybody else, but it was supported by the 

Palestinian Authority as well.

Q. I want to go back to the beginning of the Oslo Accords in 

'93 when the negotiations were going on. What role did Hamas 

play in those negotiations?

A. It played the role of spoiler. In other words, it didn't 

play a role. It was 100 percent against it and sought to 

undermine it.

Q. What did Hamas do in response to the Oslo Accords?

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A. It conducted attacks. Some of these attacks would be 

timed to specific events, like the visit of a Secretary of 

State. Madeleine Albright at the time, for example, visited 

once, and Hamas conducted an attack right then. 

Hamas would frequently conduct attacks, for example, when 

the Palestinian Authority would be about to conclude an 

agreement with Israel for the release of Palestinian prisoners 

from Israeli jails, Hamas would conduct, for example, a 

kidnapping to try and frustrate that progress on the peace 

process. 

But they also redoubled their efforts to build grassroots 

support for their movement and for their agenda, not only 

through militant activities but through social welfare 

activities, specifically targeting their followers and people 

who could become their followers, as well as political 

activity. At that time they were not engaging in national 

level politics, elections, but they were very active on 

student campuses and in professional unions or syndicates for 

teachers or lawyers, for example.

Q. I want to talk about something you mentioned, the timing 

of some of the attacks. What is the purpose of timing an 

attack to a particular event connected to the Oslo Accords. 

A. The entire premise of a peace process is that it will 

provide dividends. For the Palestinians those dividends were 

primarily independence, and on the way to independence 

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self-rule, control over their territory and their lives and 

their destiny. From the Israeli perspective, it was security. 

And neither leadership, neither Israeli nor Palestinian 

leadership, found it easy to continue the peace process if the 

whole premise of the peace process was challenged. So, for 

example, an Israeli leader would have a very difficult time 

convincing the Israeli public to support the peace process 

when Palestinians are continuing to attack.

Q. You mentioned that negotiations are still going on today?

A. Correct.

Q. The fact that it is taking so long and hasn't yet been 

successful, were the Hamas attacks -- did they play any role 

in that?

A. I think they played the primary role in that; not the 

only one, to be sure, nor are they the only group that is 

playing this type of a spoiler role. They are just the most 

dominant. But making a peace process a non-peaceful process, 

challenging the peace process through violence at every turn, 

has been the single most significant obstacle to securing 

peace and an independence day for Palestinians.

Q. You say there are other groups that played spoiler. Were 

any Israeli, Jewish groups?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you give an example?

A. Well, first of all, there are radical Israelis, mostly 

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settlers, settlers meaning people who live in the West Bank or 

Gaza and have moved into communities that they have settled 

there. Not all of them are radical, but some are, and they do 

things like small scale attacks--stonings or shootings that 

are not connected to a group, but are violent nonetheless and 

unacceptable. 

And there are two known Jewish terrorist groups that have 

been designated by the United States, they have been outlawed 

by Israel Kach, K-A-C-H, and an associated group Kanhana Chai 

K-A-H-A-N-A C-H-A-I, that have both conducted terrorist 

attacks equally reprehensible against Palestinians.

Q. You say that the Israeli government -- What action has 

the Israeli government taken against the Israeli extremist 

groups?

A. They have banned them from political activity, outlawed 

them. They are very vigilant in arresting these individuals. 

In fact, they are frequently challenged in Israeli courts for 

harassing them, trying to keep them under control. There is 

an entire part of the Israeli security establishment dedicated 

solely to dealing with Jewish extremists.

Q. Were there groups opposed to Oslo that responded in 

peaceful ways?

A. Yes.

Q. How so?

A. Not everybody agreed with the Oslo Accords. The Oslo 

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Accords arguably were very flawed, and they might not -- By 

many people's perception they were not sufficiently fair to 

the Palestinian side. By many people's perception they were 

not sufficiently fair to Israeli side. And there were many 

people on both sides who opposed, not necessarily the idea of 

peace or a two-state solution, but opposed this particular 

proposed solution. And they did so through peaceful means. 

Edward Said, recently passed away, was a renowned 

professor at Columbia, and was very much against the Oslo 

peace process but was never a proponent of violence. 

And there were people on the pro-Israel side as well.

Q. When the Oslo Accords came out, were there polls take of 

the Palestinian people to gauge their support, or lack of 

support, for the Accords?

A. There were.

Q. And what were the result of those polls?

A. The polls showed that people within the Palestinian 

territories desperately wanted a peace accord. They wanted to 

move on with their lives. 

Polls were taken on both the Israeli and the Palestinian 

sides, and they are not constant of course. Events shape 

people's perceptions. And the polls also indicated that after 

attacks by Hamas, for example, support would wane.

Q. When you say support would wane, support by whom?

A. Support by usually both sides, but when the Palestinian 

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attack happened it certainly had a huge impact on the support 

among the Israeli public for a peace process that was not 

putting an end to Palestinian terrorism. 

When an Israeli attack happened, or when Israeli 

settlement activity happened, or when Israel failed to meet a 

deadline to do one of its things, support among Palestinians 

waned. And there were missed deadlines on both sides more 

often than not.

Q. I want to turn your attention now to the founders and 

leaders of Hamas. Have you studied some of these people?

A. I have.

Q. And in studying them have you seen pictures of them?

A. I have.

Q. Did you review a chart for testimony today of some of 

these leaders that has their pictures and their names on it?

A. I did.

Q. And if you can look at what has been marked as 

Demonstrative No. 17 that should be in front of you, do you 

see that?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that document?

A. This is a PowerPoint depicting Hamas leaders in the 

1990s.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

as a demonstrative exhibit Demonstrative No. 17. 

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MR. CLINE: No objection, as a demonstrative.

THE COURT: Admitted.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, may I approach? 

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, let me show you what has 

been marked as Demonstrative No. 17-1. Is this an enlargement 

of the exhibit before you?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. JONAS: For the record, we have it on the video 

screen as well?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, can you -- starting with 

the top, the top picture in the center, it says Sheikh Ahmed 

Yassin, spiritual leader and founder, Gaza. You mentioned 

that name yesterday. Could you elaborate more as to who this 

individual is?

A. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin is one of the original founders of 

Hamas and is often described as its spiritual leader. He was 

a senior leader in the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood in the 

Gaza Strip, and after studying in Egypt returned to Gaza where 

he founded, with several other Hamas leaders, the Islamic 

Center and the Islamic Society, those two main Hamas social 

welfare institutions in the Gaza Strip that we mentioned 

yesterday. 

Before -- While the Gaza Strip was still under Egypt's 

control he was arrested by the Egyptians in the 1960s. He was 

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arrested later by the Israelis in the early 1980s, I think it 

was '83, for his role in weapons procurement efforts for 

Hamas. This is before Hamas was operating under that name. 

That only happened in 1987. 

He was then released in a prisoner exchange, but was 

arrested again in 1989 for his role in the kidnapping and 

murder of -- two separate kidnappings and murders of two 

Israeli soldiers. 

This is a kind of a leadership involvement. He was a 

paraplegic in a wheelchair, so no one was saying he went out 

and did this himself. But Khalid Mishal, the current leader 

of Hamas, is on this chart, and he has been very open about 

Sheikh Yassin was a major proponent of Hamas' military 

activity, alongside political and social welfare activity.

He was in jail until the 1990s when he was released again 

by Israel.

Q. Was Sheikh Yassin involved in the Palestinian branch of 

the Muslim Brotherhood prior to Hamas being formed?

A. He is often described of the leader of the Palestinian 

Muslim Brotherhood in the Gaza Strip, and, therefore, it is 

not surprising that he became the leader of Hamas in the Gaza 

Strip once the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood started acting 

under the name of Hamas.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, may we approach? 

THE COURT: Sure. 

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(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MS. HOLLANDER: I am sorry to interrupt, but this 

chart has changed, and there is -- Where there was a picture 

of -- Why is his name there and not a picture.

MR. JONAS: Because he cannot identify Jamal, but he 

can talk about it.

MS. HOLLANDER: He shouldn't be on the chart with a 

blank picture of him.

THE COURT: I didn't think was a big deal, frankly.

MR. JONAS: He is going to say, "I know who he is," 

and talk about it.

MS. HOLLANDER: He is my client's brother.

THE COURT: I don't know what is going to come out 

about it, but whether a picture is on a chart or not is not a 

big deal.

MS. HOLLANDER: We have never seen that before, so 

it was kind of a shock. We don't have this.

MR. JONAS: I am sorry, Your Honor. If you want to 

stipulate to his picture, we can substitute it.

MS. HOLLANDER: No. 

THE COURT: They said they haven't seen this before.

MS. HOLLANDER: I have never seen this version. We 

have only seen a version they had with the picture.

THE COURT: All right.

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(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, before we move on, I 

should have asked you, are these all the Hamas leaders in the 

'90s?

A. No.

Q. Just some of them?

A. Just some of them.

Q. Okay. You see how there is three on the top in green and 

then there is nine below them in the orange. Does that sort 

of represent higher leadership by the top three in the green?

A. Yes. And there are additional leaders in both the higher 

leadership hierarchy and the lower. This is just a very few 

of them.

Q. And the ones that are in the orange, the fact that there 

is a row of five above a row of four, does that mean that 

those five are higher in their role than the ones below them 

in terms of hierarchy in Hamas?

A. To some extent. It is a little bit -- It is not exactly 

hierarchical in that lower.

Q. Getting back to Sheikh Yassin, you mentioned he was 

arrested by the Israelis in the '90s, I believe, and then he 

was released. Why was he released?

A. Israeli agents had tried to poison Khalid Mishal, who is 

to his left on this chart, in Jordan, and those agents were 

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caught. The king of Jordan, at the time King Hussein, was 

obviously infuriated that this operation was carried out and 

was carried out on his territory, and insisted that the 

Israelis first and immediately provide the antidote to save 

Khalid Mishal's life, which they did; and second, release 

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the leader and spiritual leader of Hamas, 

or else, the King said, he would break off diplomatic 

relations and end the peace deal that had been signed between 

Israel and Jordan just a few years earlier. 

And so both those things happened--the antidote was 

provided, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was released, and that is how he 

was released the last time.

Q. Is Sheikh Yassin alive today?

A. No. He was assassinated in 2004.

Q. Let's move on to Khalid Mishal, since you mentioned his 

name already, the individual to the left of Sheikh Yassin on 

the chart. Who is he?

A. Khalid Mishal today is the leader of Hamas. He is the 

head of the shura council or the consultative council for 

Hamas, senior most leader on the political echelon of Hamas, 

which if you recall that triangle yesterday, is the decision 

making body not only for the political activity but for the 

social welfare activity and for the military activity. 

He has been designated a terrorist by the United States 

government, which produced information at the time about his 

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direct and personal role in military attacks and about the use 

of his personal bank account to take money raised for charity 

and provide it to military operatives.

Q. It says underneath his picture Jordan/Syria. What does 

that mean?

A. The headquarters of the Hamas leadership outside the West 

Bank in Gaza was until 1999 in Jordan. Khalid Mishal had 

grown up in Kuwait with that branch in Kuwait that we 

discussed yesterday that had helped set up Hamas there. 

After the first gulf war in 1990, the Palestinians were 

kicked out because of Palestinian support for Saddam Hussein 

at the time. And he went to Jordan in 1990. 

He was there until 1999, when the Jordanian government 

deported him, first arrested him, then deported him, raided, 

seized, and shut down the Hamas offices in Jordan, charging 

these Hamas leaders and the Hamas offices with engaging in 

military activity out of those offices, and kicked them out of 

the country.

Q. Speaking of the Hamas offices in Jordan, did they have an 

office? Was it an office with the word Hamas on the door? 

How was it set up?

A. There are several offices, but the main office that Hamas 

operated out of was an office they shared with the Islamic 

Action Front. This is the political wing of the Muslim 

Brotherhood in Jordan that we described yesterday. And so, 

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for example, you would have communiques with the Hamas logo on 

it and the phone number for the Islamic Action Front office on 

it.

Q. And is the Islamic Action Front an ally of Hamas?

A. It is.

Q. Where did they, the Hamas leadership, including Mishal in 

particular, go to after they were kicked out of Jordan?

A. They went to Damascus, Syria where they continue to 

reside today, though Khalid Mishal is believed to be splitting 

his time over the last few years between Damascus, Syria and 

Doha, Qatar in the Gulf.

Q. You mentioned earlier yesterday that Hamas leaders give 

interviews, and I believe you referred to an interview by 

Khalid Mishal. Without getting into the substance of the 

interview, did you find that interview to be useful in your 

studies?

A. Yes.

Q. Why?

A. Who am I to disagree with the leader of Hamas on how 

Hamas was founded and what its objectives are? 

Q. When did Khalid Mishal become the leader of Hamas?

A. Khalid Mishal was the deputy chief until 1996. He became 

the de facto chief in 1995. Until then, the individual on the 

right hand side in the top green/gray area, Mousa Abu Marzook, 

had been the head of the political bureau of Hamas. And in 

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1995, after he was arrested by Immigration agents in the 

United States, that swapped and Marzook became the deputy, 

Khalid Mishal became the head. And that was formalized a few 

months in 1996 when Hamas held internal elections and Khalid 

Mishal became the official head of the political.

Q. Is that their current roles today with Khalid Mishal as 

the head and Mousa Abu Marzook as his deputy?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's talk about Marzook. He is on the right of the 

Sheikh Yassin. It says Jordan/Syria under his name. Can you 

explain that?

A. Mousa Abu Marzook spent many, many years in the United 

States; went to school in Louisiana and then lived for many 

years in Virginia. And after Sheikh Yassin in the Gaza Strip 

was jailed in 1989, Mousa Abu Marzook from here in the United 

States became the head of Hamas, overseeing Hamas' political, 

charitable, and political from Virginia. 

That continued until 1995. Mousa Abu Marzook and his 

family had gone back to Jordan, presumably to visit family, 

came back and were detained by Immigration officers at JFK 

Airport in New York. He was detained for a long time and 

ultimately deported from the United States back to Jordan. 

And then in 1999 when the Hamas offices were shut, he, 

too, was deported, and is now residing in Damascus, Syria with 

Khalid Mishal where their offices are located.

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Q. Has Mousa Abu Marzook also been designated as a terrorist 

by the United States?

A. He was.

Q. Is that back -- When was that?

A. I forget the year.

Q. Okay. You said he was in the United States -- I am 

sorry. You said he was a student in Louisiana?

A. That is right.

Q. Do you remember the time period of that?

A. About -- Early '80s, '82, '83, through his deportation in 

'95.

Q. That is when he lived in the United States?

A. Correct.

Q. I meant do you remember when he went from Louisiana to 

Virginia? If you remember. 

A. No. I think it was in the late '80s, but he started, he 

came in the early '80s.

Q. Moving now to the pictures in the orange, and just 

starting on the top row on the left there is an individual 

named Mohammed Siam. Who is he?

A. Mohammed Siam was a professor in Kuwait in the 1980s when 

Khalid Mishal and others were involved in the founding of 

Hamas. He became Hamas' representative, or ambassador as they 

would call him, first to the Sudan and then to Yemen, and then 

afterwards continued as kind of a roving ambassador for Hamas, 

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visiting Arab countries, visited the United States, lecturing 

and raising money on behalf of Hamas. He is believed today to 

still be living in Yemen.

Q. You said roving ambassador. That implies some sort of 

governmental position. Can you explain that?

A. Hamas would see itself as a government. It would see 

itself as, you know, a major institution, and would refer to 

it as an ambassador. We might describe it as a 

representative. There are very few countries with whom Hamas 

has that kind of a formal relationship. And their 

representatives are treated like ambassadors there.

Q. So we are clear, because you said a moment ago that Hamas 

won the elections and now is the de facto government in Gaza. 

Is he a roving ambassador for that government, or is this a 

position he had prior to Hamas becoming the government of 

Gaza?

A. This is a position he had prior and refers to his 

representation of the Hamas movement, not any Hamas 

government. Even when Hamas was in control of the whole 

Palestinian Authority, these individuals were not the official 

representatives or ambassadors for the Palestinian Authority. 

They were the ambassadors or representatives for the Hamas 

movement specifically.

Q. How far back are you able to say Mohammed Siam was a 

representative of the Hamas movement?

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A. Sometime in the early to mid 1990s.

Q. The next name to the right of Mohammed Siam does not have 

a picture. It is named Jamal Abu Baker. Do you know why 

there is no picture there?

A. I am not familiar with a picture of him. I am familiar 

with him and his name, but I am not familiar with a picture.

Q. I am sorry. You said you are familiar with his name?

A. Yes.

Q. And just so we are clear, are you familiar with the 

pictures of all these other individuals on this chart?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. And prior to putting this chart in front of you, did you 

recognize these pictures?

A. Yes.

Q. You were shown them prior to testifying?

A. I confirmed when this trial was being put together that 

you had the right people, yes.

Q. Okay. Explain to us who Jamal Abu Baker is. 

A. Jamal Abu Baker or Jamal Issa Abu Baker, was Hamas 

representative first to Sudan and now to Yemen. He was also 

one of the individuals in Kuwait, according to one of the 

Khalid Mishal interviews. Khalid Mishal says Jamal Issa Abu 

Baker was in Kuwait with him when they were founding Hamas.

Q. Again, as a representative is that the official 

government position, or is that a representative of the 

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movement?

A. This is a representative solely of the Hamas organization 

or movement.

Q. Could you give us a time period when he was representing 

Hamas in Sudan, roughly?

A. Late 1990s, and is now believed to be currently still in 

Yemen.

Q. The next picture is an individual that I am going to 

pronounce as Irbrahim Ghousheh, but I suspect you will correct 

my pronunciation. 

A. The GH is sometimes a rolling R, so Ibrahim Ghousheh.

Q. Who is he?

A. Ibrahim Ghousheh was the chief spokesman really for 

Hamas, first in Jordan and then less so after the movement 

moved to Syria. He is a Jordanian, and so after the offices, 

the Hamas offices were closed in Jordan in 1999, he was 

already getting old and frail, and appears to have struck a 

deal with the Jordanian government that he could stay in 

Jordan as long as he ceased his official public duties for 

Hamas, and appears to have become much less of an official for 

Hamas as of 1999.

Q. As an official spokesman, what does that mean?

A. He would give press conferences, press releases, claim 

responsibility for attacks, condemn Israeli policies, or 

America, or what have you. But he would be one of, and not 

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the only one, but one of the chief spokespersons who would 

appear in front of the media and present Hamas' position on 

issues.

Q. The next picture is Abdel Aziz Rantisi, who is he?

A. Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi was very close to Sheikh Ahmed 

Yassin in the Gaza Strip and helped found the Islamic Society 

and the Islamic Center in Gaza. He was considered a political 

leader but was extremely militant, and was designated and 

publicly described as being very close to militant activity. 

According to the U.S. government, one of the ways Khalid 

Mishal kept tabs on military activity in the Gaza strip from 

his office in Damascus was through Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi. 

Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi was arrested several times by 

Israelis or Palestinians. And in 1992 when Israel deported a 

little over 400 extremists, mostly but not only Hamas, to 

Lebanon, Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi was one of them and became 

their spokesperson. This is when he developed a very public 

persona for Hamas. 

Ultimately after Sheikh Yassin was assassinated in 2004, 

Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi became the leader of Hamas in Gaza, 

until he too was assassinated just a few weeks later.

Q. Before we move on to the next picture, you talked about 

the political leadership, Khalid Mishal and Mousa Abu Marzook 

being now in Syria, before that Jordan. You talked about 

Sheikh Yassin, and you have Abdel Aziz Rantisi being in Gaza. 

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A. Yes.

Q. What are the terms used by Hamas members to describe the 

political leadership in Gaza and in now Syria?

A. These are the inside leaders and the outside leaders; 

inside meaning within the territories, the occupied 

territories, the West Bank and Gaza, and outside of them 

primarily in Syria. And there are interlocking and parallel 

structures. I mentioned that there is, for example, in Syria 

a shura council that is a highest level political 

decision-making body. There are local shura council in the 

West Bank and Gaza. That is Hamas' basic organizational 

structure.

Q. Who controls? In other words, which one calls the 

shots--the outside leadership or the inside leadership?

A. The outside leadership is dominant. Certainly today when 

Khalid Mishal is the recognized singular leader of the entire 

Hamas movement that is the case, and even prior he was the 

leader of the political committee, the highest level 

decision-making body. 

And then organizational issues aside, much like the way 

the U.S. Congress affects power over the rest of the U.S. 

government, the Hamas leadership in Damascus has a lot of say 

over what happens within the organization because of their 

control of the purse strings.

Q. Can you elaborate on this when you say control of the 

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purse strings?

A. Khalid Mishal and others in the political committee 

oversee Hamas' international fundraising efforts. Not all 

that money comes through their office in Damascus, not at all, 

but they dictate how and where it comes and where it goes, and 

that gives them a significant amount of say over Hamas' 

overall activities.

Q. Moving on to the next picture, Mahmoud Zahar, who is he?

A. Mahmoud Zahar is a Hamas leader in Gaza; a particularly 

militant leader, though overtly political leader; senior 

enough that when Hamas came to power he became the Hamas 

foreign minister, and is now a leader in Hamas in Gaza again. 

Q. Moving to -- Before I move on, you say he became a 

foreign minister. And as opposed to the roving ambassadors 

that you have for Mohammed Siam, is that foreign ministership 

a government position as opposed to a movement position?

A. When the Hamas led government came to power after the 

January 2006 elections, that was foreign minister of the 

entire Palestinian Authority. 

After the collapse of that Palestinian Authority and the 

split between the de facto Hamas led Gaza Strip and the more 

moderate Palestinian Authority government in the West Bank, he 

maintains his title as foreign minister for Hamas, but that is 

just representing the Hamas movement in Gaza.

Q. Moving to the bottom line, the picture on the far left, 

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Imad al-Alami. Who is he?

A. Imad al-Alami is a member of the Hamas Political Bureau 

currently believed to be in Syria. He is former Hamas 

representative to Iran, also designated by the U.S. 

government, which highlighted his role as kind of a supervisor 

from Damascus of Hamas' military activity in the West Bank and 

Gaza.

Q. You said also designated by the U.S. government. Do you 

mean him individually?

A. Yes.

Q. When Hamas has a representative in a country like Iran, 

what role does that representative play?

A. The role is one of presenting Hamas' position on issues, 

but it is also one, especially in the case of Iran which has 

long supported Hamas financially and militarily, to get money 

and get military support; but also, as we read yesterday in 

the Hamas charter, to try and build support for the movement 

and its ideology at the expense of the two-state solution put 

forward by the PLO in Arab and Muslim political, academic 

circles.

Q. You have identified between Imad al-Alami and Jamal Abu 

Baker three countries that Hamas had representatives 

in--Sudan, Yemen, and Iran. Were there other countries that 

Hamas had representatives in?

A. Obviously in Syria and also in Lebanon.

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Q. How about Libya?

A. I don't know if they had an official representative in 

Libya, and if they did--they may have--Libya now has moved 

away from terrorism and is probably a less hospitable place to 

Hamas today.

Q. The next picture is Ismail Haniya. Who is he?

A. Ismail Haniya is another long-time Hamas leader in Gaza, 

close to Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, AbDel Aziz al-Rantisi, and 

Mahmoud Zahar, and senior enough within the movement that when 

they came to power he became the Palestinian Authority's prime 

minister, and again maintains that title today, though not for 

the whole Palestinian Authority, only for the de facto element 

that is run by Hamas in Gaza.

Q. Next to him is a picture of a man named Jamil Hamami. 

Who is he?

A. Jamil Hamami is a West Bank Hamas leader. He was very 

vocal about the importance of the social welfare or civilian 

infrastructure, organizations, and activities of Hamas and how 

they benefit the political and military activities of Hamas. 

As recently as 1995 he talked about this. 

But then there was a break between him and Hamas leaders 

in 1996. He had served as one of the primary Hamas spokesmen 

for Hamas in the West Bank. But then in 1996, hamas leaders 

issued statements saying that he no longer spoke for the 

organization, and in 1996 drops he off the radar in terms of 

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Hamas activity.

Q. Did there come a point when the United States invited 

Jamil Hamami to come here?

A. He was invited sometime after this break with Hamas to 

come to the United States for an interfaith dialogue with 

other Muslim, Christian, and Jewish leaders, which is a 

particularly un-hamas thing to do. And it was kind of a 

pseudo government thing. He was not meeting with government 

people primarily, but it was a program that was facilitated, 

might even been organized by the U.S. government, for these 

exchange of ideas programs.

Q. Finally, the last picture is a man named Hamed Bitawi. 

Who is he?

A. Hamed Bitawi is a senior Hamas leader in the West Bank, 

described by Khalid Mishal as one of the next generation 

leaders of Hamas; very involved in the zakat or charity 

committees, and in the actual charities as well run by Hamas 

in the West bank. In particular, he has been on the board of 

the Nablus zakat committee and the associated al-Tadhoman 

charity. 

He is a cleric, and unfortunately has used that position 

of authority to praise suicide bombers describing them, for 

example, as angels sent from heaven.

Q. What is a cleric?

A. A religious leader.

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Q. Do you have before you underneath the demonstrative 

exhibit you are referring to a series of pictures?

A. I do.

Q. And if you could flip through those real quick. Are 

those pictures the same pictures that are on this 

demonstrative exhibit, Demonstrative No. 17?

A. They are.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I would like to offer into 

evidence, not as a demonstrative but evidence, the pictures of 

the individuals on this chart. And I can go through the name 

and the exhibit number with Doctor Levitt.

THE COURT: What numbers are those? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, starting with what is 

marked as picture 7, who is that?

A. This is Khalid Mishal.

Q. Okay. Picture No. 8?

A. Picture 8 is Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. Picture 9?

A. Picture 9 is Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

Q. Picture 10?

A. Picture 10 is Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi.

Q. And just so we are clear, those are the same pictures 

that are on the board?

A. They are.

Q. Do the pictures you have, do they have more information 

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than their name?

A. This one does. Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi includes I guess 

kind of a nickname, another name by which he is known, Abu 

Mohammed.

Q. Besides that, does it say where they are from or their 

role in Hamas?

A. No, just the name.

Q. What was the last picture I asked you about?

A. Rantisi, No. 10.

Q. Picture No. 11?

A. Mahmoud Zahar.

Q. Picture No. 12?

A. Jamil Hamami.

Q. Picture No. 13?

A. Ibrahim Ghousheh.

Q. Picture 14?

A. Mohamed Siam.

Q. I am going to skip a few numbers. Picture No. 18?

A. Ismael Haniya.

Q. Picture No. 19?

A. Imad al-Alami.

Q. Picture 20? 

A. Hamed al-Bitawi. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I would offer into evidence 

these series of pictures. 

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MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. ?

MR. JONAS: Doctor Levitt, there are a few other 

individuals I want to ask you about that are not on the chart, 

whose names may surface during the course of trial. 

Are you familiar with a man by the name of Ibrahim 

al-Yazuri? 

A. I am.

Q. Who is that?

A. Ibrahim al-Yazuri is a another of the founders of Hamas 

in Gaza; together with Sheikh Yassin was instrumental in 

founding the Islamic Society and the Islamic Center.

Q. How about a man named Akram Kharoubi?

A. Akram Kharoubi, who at one time was a professor at George 

Washington University, was a Hamas operative in the West Bank, 

worked for the HLF there, held meetings for Hamas in his 

house, and couriered funds for Hamas as well.

Q. Man named Muin Shabib?

A. Muin Shabib is a West Bank Qassam Brigades, Hamas' 

terrorist wing, operative; came to the United States and 

briefed Hamas supporters here on the Hamas social welfare 

organizations in the West Bank and Gaza, listing many of the 

zakat committees, for example, and describing them as, quote, 

our institutions.

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Q. Mahmoud Ruhami?

A. Mahmoud Ruhami is another West Bank activist; also came 

to the United States; briefed on members of the military wing 

employed in social welfare organizations, which is one of the 

benefits they provide, providing day jobs. He himself had a 

day job in a Hamas medical clinic.

Q. Khari al-Agha?

A. Khari al-Agha is a Saudi businessman who has been 

described as a financier for Hamas.

Q. And finally Abdullah Azzam?

A. Abdullah Azzam is a Palestinian and a kind of spiritual 

figurehead that Hamas looks up to. He has been -- He fought 

against the Soviets in the war in Afghanistan, and is seen by 

Hamas as a figure to look up to.

Q. Is he still alive today?

A. He is not.

Q. What year did he die?

A. It was mid 1980s, maybe 1985.

Q. Doctor Levitt, yesterday we talked about the structure of 

Hamas, and if you recall we had that triangle that you 

referred to several times to today--political, military, and 

social wing. 

A. One second. I don't think it was 1985. I don't remember 

the year. It must have been later than 1985.

Q. Okay. 

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A. I apologize.

Q. That is okay. 

And for the record, you are talking about the death of 

Abdullah Azzam.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. We talked yesterday about that triangle that we 

showed you, the diagram--political, military, social. 

A. Yes.

Q. I want to get into more detail about these particular 

wings of Hamas. I want to start with the military wing. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am going to take this 

down, if that is all right. 

THE COURT: All right.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does the military wing of Hamas have a 

name?

A. It goes by the Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades or the 

Qassam Brigades. 

Q. Where did that name?

A. Izz el-Din al-Qassam is someone who fought the British, 

and Jews at the time, decades earlier, and was looked up to as 

an example of a Muslim fighter who was fighting for the 

Palestinian homeland.

Q. You said decades earlier. Do you mean prior to the 

creation of Hamas?

A. Correct.

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Q. What exactly does the military wing do?

A. It is engaged in military activity. It conducts attacks. 

It traditionally has also responsible for security for the 

organization to try to prevent penetration by Israeli or other 

intelligence services, but primarily it is engaged in acts of 

violence.

Q. You say it conducts military activity, but is it an army 

like we would think of normally?

A. No. And maybe I shouldn't be so diplomatic. This is the 

terrorist wing of Hamas. It conducts attacks against Israeli 

military targets. And that may not actually fit the technical 

academic definition of terrorism. That might be actually 

militia activity. It is still illegal. But most of Hamas' 

attacks are intentionally targeting civilians with weapons 

that are indiscriminate, meaning you can't target this person 

or this person, you just go to a civilian area and, for 

example, detonate a bomb that kills whoever it kills, and that 

is the absolute definition of terrorism.

Q. Well, I asked you yesterday about the type of attack that 

Hamas is most infamous for. What type of attack is that 

again. 

A. This is the suicide bombing.

Q. Have you studied suicide bombings?

A. I have.

Q. When did Hamas first start committing suicide bombings?

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A. In the early 1990s.

Q. What type of person does Hamas get to become a suicide 

bomber?

A. Someone who is willing to kill themselves in an effort to 

kill others. There is no profile. There was a time early on 

in the development of Hamas, in the very early 1990s, for 

example, where the suicide bomber was primarily the young, 

male, unmarried, no children, no family obligations. 

That has changed. It has changed because of Hamas' 

radicalization campaign. It has changed because Hamas has 

successfully placed this into a religious context and made 

this not only a praise-worthy act of faith, but one that is 

the highest possible achievement. And it has changed because 

the conflict has continued, and Hamas plays on the 

disgruntlement, the suffering of people to make them carry out 

suicide attacks. There are many people who suffer. 

Let's be clear. A very, very, tiny minority displays 

their frustration by conducting a suicide attack. Hamas' 

success is finding those individuals, spotting them, 

recruiting them, radicalizing them, and dispatching them. 

Today there have been children, women, at least one 

grandmother -- 

MR. DRATEL: What is the time frame, Your Honor? 

THE WITNESS: Over the past five to ten years.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) You said children, women, grandmothers. 

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Who are what?

A. Suicide bombers.

Q. Was it always -- Did they always go for any type of 

person, or was there a time when they only went for men? And 

I say went for. I mean recruit to become suicide bombers. 

A. There was a time when they primarily targeted young 

single men. They didn't have families holding them back, they 

often didn't have steady jobs holding them back, and, frankly, 

it was easier. You have people with no job, no place to go 

during the day but a Hamas institution or a mosque, easily 

spotted, ready for recruitment, and that was their modus 

operandi.

Q. You say ready for recruitment. How did they go about 

recruiting these people? 

A. We talked about the social welfare wing is sometimes 

referred to as the Dawa, which means to preach. And Hamas 

develops its social welfare, its civilian institutions, and 

uses them as a means, when they see people coming into these 

institutions to spot people who might be sufficiently angry, 

sufficiently religious, and extreme in their religion to be 

amenable to approach or recruitment, and not only for a 

suicide attack but for other types of activity on behalf of 

Hamas.

Q. Such as?

A. Such as supporting the military wing, such as aiding or 

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sheltering fugitives, procuring explosive material or weapons, 

funding the group's activities. Military activity requires an 

infrastructure of logistical and financial supporters to carry 

out an attack.

Q. Does the individual that they recruit have to share the 

same ideology as Hamas--in other words the religious ideology?

A. They do.

Q. Does Hamas look for someone who is pure? And by pure I 

mean not ill. 

A. Yes.

Q. Have there been examples where people who have attempted 

to suicide attacks but yet were not sent out because they were 

not 100 percent healthy?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you give us an example?

A. The 2003 Hamas attack on the Park Hotel in Netanya over 

the Jewish holiday of Passover, which killed almost 30 people 

and wounded over 150, mostly holocaust survivors, was 

originally intended to have two suicide bombers, one of whom 

came down with the common cold and was, therefore, not 

dispatched, because in Hamas' religious world view one needs 

to be pure and committed. This has to be being done for the 

right reasons, this act of suicide bombing; not because one is 

sick, certainly not terminally ill, but even just the common 

cold.

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Q. It would seem that killing yourself would be a cure for 

the common cold. Why is that an impediment to letting someone 

become a suicide bomber?

A. Because say what you will about this, you know, act of 

murder, Hamas puts it into a religious context and is serious 

about that. And if they are going to be successful and 

serious about making this a religious act, then it has to be 

completely pure, not for self-interest, not otherwise. 

Now, it has not always been the case. There have been 

cases where they have played upon someone's circumstances to 

pressure them into an attack. But in most cases, and this is 

one example, if someone has even something as small as a 

common cold, they will not deploy them.

Q. When Hamas deploys a suicide bomber, who chooses a 

target?

A. Usually the specific military cell. The higher echelon 

of Hamas will give a green light, "Now is a good time for 

attacks." They might even say, "Here is a good place, 

Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, this city, or this city," but the 

operational decision is left to the cell and ultimately to the 

suicide bomber. That is one of the great advantages of the 

suicide bomber.

Q. Why?

A. Well, if you fire a missile or if you drop a bomb, you 

release the weapon and then it is out of your control. That 

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is it. If you have a suicide bomber, that is a smart bomb. 

That is a bomb that can change direction, see that there are 

police, for example, at the place that was originally intended 

to be targeted, and instead of targeting that cafe go to 

another one down the street, or target the next bus that comes 

by the first bus that came by was practically empty and you 

wouldn't kill very many people. So often it is the suicide 

bomber that will decide. 

In the case we just discussed, the Park Hotel attack, 

Hamas originally intended to target another location, but it 

was the holiday of Passover and many Israeli Jews were not out 

at cafes and in buses. And so the suicide bomber chose to go 

and target a hotel that he knew, because he had worked in the 

kitchen there years earlier, knowing that there would be 

people celebrating the holiday in the hotel.

Q. When a suicide bomber goes out, do they try to 

distinguish between civilians and military or between women 

and men, children and adults?

A. In most cases no. There are some attacks that are 

clearly targeting military, targeting a checkpoint or 

something, but the vast majority of attacks, and in particular 

the suicide bombing attacks, are not. Hamas tends to attack a 

military checkpoint when they are operationally weak and 

Israel's countermeasures are strong and they can't get into 

Israel to target a cafe or a bus. 

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But by and large the Hamas suicide bombings are intended, 

and specifically conceived and deployed to target civilian 

targets, and so they have chosen cafes, pizzerias, buses, 

enclosed locations where you can maximize damage. And when 

that suicide bomber walks in there, that suicide bomber sees 

families eating, people going to work. These are civilians. 

And those are the people that he, or sometimes she, blows up.

Q. Has Hamas done anything to -- Withdrawn. How does a 

suicide bomber blow themselves up? What are they doing?

A. They wear usually a vest that is sewn together with the 

explosives sewn into it. Sometimes they will carry it in a 

backpack or something like that. But in all cases there will 

be a detonator switch that will be in their hand or on their 

belt, easily accessible, and all they have to do is push a 

button.

Q. Does Hamas do anything to the explosives to enhance the 

impact?

A. Yes. The most significant thing is that the explosives 

are covered and surrounded with metal objects, usually nuts 

and bolts, sometimes marbles, because then when the device 

explodes these shoot out like thousands of bullets, and most 

of the injury -- Most of the death is by people who are close 

to the explosion. Most of the injury, and much of the death 

as well, is because of these fragments.

Q. Has Hamas done anything to the pieces of metal to even 

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enhance their lethality?

A. Well, they have tried. They have tried soaking these 

pieces of metal in chemicals like cyanide to make them still 

more lethal. Apparently they weren't very good chemists and 

didn't realize that the force of the explosive blast 

immediately disintegrated the chemicals. But they were pretty 

deadly as they were.

Q. When a suicide bomber goes out and chooses a target, do 

they choose targets exclusively visited by Israelis?

A. No, not at all.

Q. Do they choose targets that are known to be visited by 

foreigners, including Americans?

A. Yes.

Q. Such as?

A. Hamas has targeted one of the cafeterias at the Hebrew 

University in Jerusalem that is a main cafeteria for the 

foreign students program. I think five Americans were killed 

in that attack. Hamas targeted a bar called Mike's Place, 

which is literally right next door to the U.S. Embassy in Tel 

Aviv. And more than the symbolic location--I have been there 

many times--is constantly full of foreigners, including U.S. 

Embassy personnel. And Mike's Place was blown up in a Hamas 

suicide bombing. 

And again, when you target a bus or a cafe in a country 

that has a large tourist population, a large diplomatic 

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population, you are going to kill -- You don't know who you 

are going to kill, and apparently it doesn't matter. These 

indiscriminate attacks are the very definition of terror; not 

just in terms of who they are actually killing and wounding, 

but literally terrorizing society so that people are afraid to 

get on the bus to go to school or work, or to go into a 

restaurant. Almost every restaurant in Israel today has a 

guard outside its door.

Q. Are there guards outside other stores besides 

restaurants?

A. Every mall, many, many stores. It is a booming industry.

Q. Do these guards doing anything to people going in?

A. They have metal detectors, I presume they are armed, and 

it is like when you came into the building here.

Q. You mentioned that Hamas uses some women and children as 

suicide bombers, or has done so. Do they use women and 

children for other means as well? And I say they. I mean the 

military activity, the terrorist activity. 

A. Yes, far more often, because children and women are less 

likely to be suspect, for example, couriering weapons through 

a checkpoint. In Arab and Muslim society both, you know, the 

woman is highly respected. Israel had to develop a group of 

female soldiers that they would be able to take suspected 

women into a separate location to be able to make sure that 

they weren't, as has happened, couriering weapons or things 

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under their clothes. Children also, you would not necessarily 

suspect a young child of couriering through a checkpoint 

bullets or something like that, and that is why they have used 

these populations.

Q. How is it -- you say they are couriers. Do they play any 

other role in any of the terrorist attacks besides couriers?

A. Certainly. Frequently a woman will be used to either 

deliver the explosive device to the suicide bomber, there will 

be a point of departure and then that person will move on. 

And in several cases Hamas has used women as kind of a cover 

and a decoy, and so you will have someone dressed in a very 

Western fashion hair uncovered and tight clothing to blend 

into Western society, and will be walking maybe hand in hand 

with the Hamas suicide bomber, which may not be the way they 

would normally behave because of their religious convictions 

but is okay because it is to facilitate a Hamas attack, and 

this creates cover. It is like wearing a disguise. It makes 

the suicide bomber less threatening. This isn't a suspicious 

looking individual carrying a knapsack with wires out of it. 

In one case it is a Western looking male carrying a guitar 

case which had a weapon on it, a bomb in it, holding hands 

with a woman with tight jeans and T-shirt.

Q. Do the suicide bombers dress up in ways other than 

Western gash?

A. Yes, and not just suicide bombers. For kidnappings, for 

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example, as well, Hamas will often try to dress up like 

Israelis, specifically religious or ultra orthodox Israelis. 

So they have kind of, you know, the kippah on their head, the 

head covering and the side curls, they will be wearing, you 

know, the white shirt and dark suit, no tie. And in some 

Hamas kidnappings they were determined to have been playing 

Jewish music on the radio and had a Jewish Bible on the 

dashboard.

Q. Does Hamas publicize these attacks?

A. Yes.

Q. How so?

A. We have talked about their spokespersons. We talked 

yesterday about their websites. They will do so through their 

own and other radio and television. One medium of preference 

has been al-Manar, a satellite television station run by a 

different terrorist group, Hezbollah, out of Lebanon, which 

gets very broad coverage throughout the world. It is a 

satellite station. And so they have claimed responsibility 

for attacks there very frequently.

Q. What is the purpose of claiming responsibility for 

attacks?

A. Hamas wants people to know that it is out there engaged 

in what it describes as self-sacrifice on behalf of the 

nation, willing to sacrifice themselves on behalf of the 

nation. This type of action helps recruitment, it helps 

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fundraising, it helps the base of supporters it already has, 

it moves its political base, and it helps in recruitment of 

others, especially when it couches these activities in terms 

of, "Look at how corrupt and ineffective the other Palestinian 

leaders are. Meanwhile, we are willing to sacrifice our own 

children on behalf of the nation."

Q. Is every Hamas attack successful?

A. No, a great many, and sometimes most, are not.

Q. How are they not successful?

A. Well, there are many what we call work accidents, these 

are very volatile chemicals, TATP, for example, and so often 

Hamas bomb makers will have accidents and explosives will go 

off. Very frequently they can't get to the point where they 

are trying to carry out the attack because of Palestinian 

Authority security measures, Israeli security measures. 

Israel has now built a system of barriers, sometimes fences, 

sometimes walls. Hamas leaders have been very public about 

how much more difficult that has made it for them to get into 

Israel proper to conduct attacks.

Q. Does the public hear about every unsuccessful attack?

A. The public hears about very few of them.

Q. How does the military wing of Hamas obtain its weapons?

A. A variety of means. It procures weapons on the black 

market, from organized criminal organizations, including 

Jewish criminals who will sell to whoever. For many years 

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they would go into the Sinai desert and dig up old land mines 

from past Arab-Israeli wars. They procure chemical 

precursors, chemicals that can be combined to form bombs like 

we experienced in Oklahoma City, for example, with just 

basically fertilizer bombs. And they get support from other 

terrorist groups and states like Iran and groups like 

Hezbollah in fashioning those bombs and learning how to make 

more sophisticated ones.

Q. Do they ever smuggle weapons in from Egypt?

A. Yes.

Q. How so?

A. Primarily through tunnels. There is, believe it or not, 

a very sophisticated system of tunnels that are literally dug 

by hand under the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, the 

Sinai Desert. People have been killed when these tunnels 

collapse on them sometimes. They are not always very 

structurally sound. Often they are very structurally sound, 

and Egyptian authorities and Israeli authorities both have 

uncovered tunnels that even had train tracks in them to be 

able to put heavy things and move them around. 

Sometimes when these tunnels are discovered they are 

destroyed. That is very difficult. Usually what happens is 

the entrance, usually the entrance is in the middle of a 

house. They will dig it literally up into the floor and cover 

it with a carpet. On both sides of the border you close the 

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entrance to the tunnel, the tunnel still exists, so they just 

have to dig another beginning and hook up with the existing 

tunnel. 

In a couple of cases Israeli and Egyptian authorities got 

together and poured cement into the tunnel, and Hamas got 

cement drilling equipment and drilled through the cement, it 

took them longer, but at the end of the day they had a 

fortified, much, much safer cement-lined tunnel at their 

disposal.

Q. What do the Israeli authority do to the houses that cover 

the tunnels?

A. Very often they will blow them up or bulldoze them down 

to expose that land so that the tunnels cannot be rebuilt.

Q. Talking about suicide attacks, have you seen pictures of 

the aftermath of a suicide attack?

A. Too many.

Q. Do you see before you -- in front of you Demonstrative 

13?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is that, generally?

A. This is a typical picture of what happens after, in this 

case, a bus bombing.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I would like to offer into 

evidence Demonstrative 13. 

MR. CLINE: No objection as a demonstrative.

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THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put Demonstrative 13 on the 

screen, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, can you describe the 

scene?

A. In the middle you see the smoke and flames still rising, 

primarily it looks like from cars that were unfortunately 

beside the bus. The bus is a shell. It is completely 

destroyed, completely gutted on the inside. Whatever and 

whoever were in that bus are very unlikely to have survived. 

All of the upholstery, much of the metal inside of these buses 

after these explosions are just gone. 

And that is one of the points. If you conduct an attack, 

a bombing in a closed environment, a bus is ideal because it 

is small and enclosed, but a cafe, something else, the 

explosion is contained within that area. And instead of 

diffusing quickly out into the air, the flames, the heat, 

stays in and it maximizes the deadly effect of the attack. 

And it is not uncommon, as you see here, for cars that 

happen to be nearby, depending on the size of the explosion 

not even necessarily even so nearby, to be destroyed as well.

Q. Have you yourself seen the aftermath of a suicide attack?

A. I have.

Q. When was that?

A. July 1997.

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Q. Where were you?

A. I started the day in Ramallah in the West Bank where I 

was interviewing Palestinian officials at a meeting of the 

Palestinian legislative counsel, their parliament that we 

discussed earlier, when suddenly news broke that there was a 

double suicide bombing in an open air market in Jerusalem 

called the Mahane Yehuda, M-A-H-A-N-E Y-E-H-U-D-A, market. 

The legislative council session ended. I got into a car with 

an American journalist and my translator and we made our way 

back into Jerusalem. 

The Israeli checkpoints had been closed, but my 

Palestinian translator knew a back road to evade the 

checkpoint, and I was amazed, despite the checkpoint, that we 

were back in Jerusalem. 

I went towards the area where the bomb happened and 

Israeli police had blocked off the entire area, but several 

hours later that evening I was able to go back and much of it 

had already been cleaned, but there were journalists and 

others. And what you saw was complete and utter destruction. 

Apparently the first suicide bomber detonated his suicide bomb 

at a fruit and vegetable market. The outdoor market is 

structured like a T, so people moved up the base of the T, not 

knowing that the second suicide bomber was at the head where 

you could go left or right. And as people rushed away from 

the first bomb, the second suicide bomber detonated his 

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device, killing still more people. 

Many, many people were killed. There were children's 

shoes all over the place. There was still blood on the floor. 

The roof was gone. The stores were destroyed. There was an 

electric powered wheelchair that was completely mangled and 

had been turned into a makeshift memorial. I stayed for a 

little while, but I couldn't stay very long.

Q. Doctor Levitt, did you assist in preparing a timeline of 

some of the major Hamas events, including some of these 

bombings?

A. I did.

Q. Do you see before you Demonstrative 14?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that?

A. This is an event timeline that I helped put together.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Demonstrative 14, again as a demonstrative 

exhibit. 

MR. CLINE: No objection as a demonstrative.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, the 

first page.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, this is a PowerPoint. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. So there are various slides?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: Counsel, let's take the morning recess. 

Be back 11:10 by that clock. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 10 after.

(Brief Recess.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, when we broke we were 

about to talk about the timeline that you helped create. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, 

please, Demonstrative No. 14.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see that, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Can you just walk us through what is on this first 

screen?

A. In early December 1987 the Palestinian Intifada, the 

uprising that we described, begins in Gaza. Hamas founding 

members, including Sheikh Yassin and Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, 

mobilized worshippers at local mosques and hold 

demonstrations. Also in December 1987 Hamas is founded 

officially, and then a few months later the official Hamas 

charter is published in August of 1988. 

Shortly thereafter --

Q. Let me interrupt for a moment. 

THE COURT: I understand the monitors for the jurors 

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may not be turned on. Your Honor, one moment, please. 

THE COURT: Sure. 

THE COURT: Your Honor, I apologize. We need to 

bring the technical person up. Can we take another ten-minute 

break, please.

THE COURT: Is there some other material you can 

cover that you don't need the monitor for.

MR. JONAS: Not really, sir.

THE COURT: Okay. Let's take a few minutes and we 

will see if we can get these monitors fixed. Go ahead and 

step into the jury room. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Thank you, Judge. 

(Pause in proceedings.)

MR. JONAS: I understand the problem has been fixed. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, do you have the first 

slide on your screen?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. And you mentioned already about the Intifada 

beginning, Hamas being founded, and the charter being 

published. Can you start with the next event, which is 

February 16th, 1989?

A. Yes. This is the last entry on the page. Israel defense 

forces, Sergeant Sasportas, the family name, was abducted. An 

off-duty sergeant, Avi Sasportas was kidnapped while 

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hitchhiking at the Hodaya Junction and subsequently shot to 

death. His body was buried at the Givati Junction in southern 

Israel and discovered later on May 7, 1989.

Q. Was this the event that caused Sheikh Yassin to be 

arrested by the Israelis?

A. This and another.

MR. JONAS: If we can get to the next screen, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the next event?

A. This is the next event, May 3rd, 1989. Off-duty Israel 

defense forces corporal Ilan Sa'doan was kidnapped while 

hitchhiking. Sa'doan was declared a fallen IDF soldier on 

November 22, 1990. His body was only found on July 29, 1996.

Q. So these two events in conjunction, the February 16th, 

'89 and the May 3rd, '89, were those the two events you 

referred to as causing the arrest of Sheikh Yassin?

A. Yes.

Q. Next?

A. In February 1992, following the February 9th, 1992 

bombing in Gaza which injured three, Hamas' Izz el-Din 

al-Quassam Brigades claims credit. Salah Shehadah is later 

identified as al-Qassam Brigades' founder.

Q. Prior to this date did the brigades go by another name?

A. Hamas had military activity prior to this, and they went 

by the name of Majd, M-A-J-D, or other names. 

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THE COURT: Are you having trouble with one of the 

monitors? 

Can you come help us over here? It is falling off.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, I was asking you about 

other names that the Izz el-Din al-Quassam Brigades go by, and 

let me ask you this. Have you heard the name Palestinian 

Mujahideen?

A. I have.

Q. And how have you heard that term?

A. That was one of the names under which the Hamas fighters 

were operating prior to the declaration of the Izz el-Din 

al-Quassam Brigades.

MR. JONAS: If we can have the next screen, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this event?

A. November 1992. Car bombing was foiled and attempted 

suicide car bombing in a heavily populated area in the center 

of the country was foiled before execution.

Q. In the center of the country, are you referring to 

Israel?

A. Yes.

Q. Who foiled it? Do you recall? Was it the Israeli 

military or -- 

A. At this point in 1992 almost certainly, yes. This is 

prior to the creation of the Palestinian Authority.

MR. JONAS: Next screen, please.

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MR. JONAS: A month later in December 1992, Israel 

expelled 415 Palestinian militants, the majority of which were 

members of Hamas, 251 from the West Bank and 164 from the Gaza 

Strip, to Lebanon, including Mahmoud Zahar and Abdel Aziz 

Rantisi. Rantisi is elected the camp's spokesman.

Q. Mahmoud Zahar and Rantisi, are they on the chart we 

looked at before of Hamas leaders in the 1990s?

A. Exactly.

Q. And what ended up happening to these men?

A. They stayed on this hilltop in Marj al-Zhour, M-A-R-J 

A-L Z-H-O-U-R, and were eventually allowed to return back to 

the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Q. What was the world reaction to what happened?

A. Very angry. The general reaction was that the Israeli 

action was in violation of international law. The Lebanese 

did not accept them, and they stayed on this hilltop, 

generally with the assistance of international aid 

organizations, living primarily in tents.

Q. It says here that a majority of these individuals were 

Hamas members. What were the minority, the non-Hamas members? 

Who were they?

A. These were all individuals identified as the Israelis as 

being members of extremists and violent groups, so it would 

include members of the Palestinian Islamic jihad and some 

other groups, too.

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Q. What caused the Israelis to do this?

A. The continuing tempo of violence and their desire to 

strike a blow at the Hamas infrastructure, recognizing that 

these attacks were only possible because of the logistical and 

financial support that they were receiving from the movement 

overall, its social welfare and political activities as well. 

This was how they decided, wise or otherwise, to try and foil 

Hamas' violence.

Q. Did the individuals that were deported, did they deny 

being Hamas?

A. No.

Q. Did they acknowledge being Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. Did it have an affect while they were out of the country, 

while they were deported, expelled, did it have the desired 

effect on Hamas?

A. It did. It had a severe effect on Hamas' ability to 

conduct operations. Hamas officials tried to send people to 

the West Bank and Gaza, including people from the United 

States, to try and resurrect that capability, and Hamas 

officials described it as a severe blow.

Q. Why did the Israelis let these individuals back into the 

West Bank and Gaza?

A. In large part because of international pressure, and the 

fact that this was clearly not a tenable solution.

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Q. The men that were deported, were they just of the 

military branch of Hamas or were they part of the other wings 

as well?

A. They were a variety of wings. There were some from the 

military wing, and there were some from the political and 

social welfare wings.

MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this?

A. It is a bombing in April 1993. A suicide bomber driving 

an explosives laden van detonated his vehicle between two 

buses in the Mekholah Restaurant parking lot killing one and 

wounding five.

Q. Do you know where that restaurant is located?

A. It is in the West Bank, I believe.

Q. Why is it that Hamas would conduct an attack in the West 

Bank?

A. Hamas is primarily concerned with conducting attacks that 

will garner attention and will kill their targeted -- their 

intended targets, Israelis. Sometimes they will conduct those 

attacks -- more often they will conduct those attacks, 

especially suicide attacks, in Israel proper when they can, 

but when the security environment is prohibited and Israeli 

forces, or later Palestinian forces, make it difficult for 

them to do so, they have been known to carry out a variety of 

different type of attacks in the West Bank or Gaza.

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MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, the Oslo Accords, you 

talked about the attempted peace agreement. 

A. Exactly.

MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is happening here in April of '94?

A. April 6th, 1994, a suicide bomber driving an explosives 

laden car detonated his vehicle near the number 348 bus stop 

in Afula, which is in middle Northern Israel, killing eight 

and injuring five.

MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

THE WITNESS: The slide or event? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I am sorry. I jumped ahead a little bit. 

The incident in October of '94, can you talk about that?

A. Israel defense forces soldier, Sergeant Nachshon 

Wachsman, an American citizen, was abducted from inside 

Israel. Captors subsequently demanded the release of 

Palestinian prisoners, including Hamas leader Sheikh Yassin, 

in exchange for his safe return. The incident leads to the 

suspension of the peace negotiations in Cairo. Wachsman is 

killed by his captors during an Israel defense forces rescue 

operation on October 14th, 1994.

Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions about this. You 

said Israel defense forces. I assume that is IDF on the 

screen?

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A. Exactly. The Israeli army.

Q. The army. The suspension of peace negotiations in Cairo. 

What were these peace negotiations about?

A. This is after the Oslo process had begun, and there were 

a variety of simultaneous tracks to the peace process that 

were being negotiated. At the time one in Paris on economic 

issues, and one in Cairo on political issues, the very first 

phase of the peace process. And this attack led to the 

suspension of the peace process, in particular suspension of a 

deal that was about to be concluded on the release of 

Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails.

Q. Did the Israelis release Sheikh Yassin in response to the 

demand by the captors? 

A. No.

Q. We next have an October 19th, 1994 incident. 

A. Another suicide bombing. This one aboard the number five 

bus on Dizengoff Street in Tel Aviv. This is the main city 

square in Israel, in Tel Aviv. Kills 21 Israelis, 1 Dutch 

national, and injures 56.

MR. JONAS: Next incident, please? Next slide?

THE WITNESS: Beit Lid double bombing. Bombers near 

a snack bar at the Beit Lid Junction, it is a highway junction 

near the Israeli coastal town of Netanya, used a new tactic of 

setting off a small blast first and then igniting a second 

more major explosion three minutes later after rescuers began 

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to convene at the scene. The attack killed 22 people and 

wounded approximately 60. Islamic jihad claimed 

responsibility.

Q. What is Islamic jihad?

A. Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or PIJ, is another Islamist 

terrorist group much smaller than Hamas with which Hamas 

sometimes cooperates.

Q. Did Hamas claim responsibility for this act as well?

A. It did.

Q. How do you know which organization committed the act if 

they are both claiming responsibility?

A. With difficulty. It is not uncommon sometimes for groups 

to claim responsibility for one another's attacks and try and 

reap the benefits. Israeli authorities later determined that 

there actually was both Hamas and Islamic Jihad participation. 

I don't remember which, but one group provided the suicide 

bomber and the other group provided the suicide bomb, the 

bomb.

Q. This says it killed 22 people and wounded 60. Were the 

22 people killed Israeli soldiers?

A. Not alone, no. There may have been some soldiers in 

there, but this was a civilian junction, a civilian bus stop 

area. Typically Israeli soldiers hitchhike, get free rides on 

the Israeli national bus system, so I am sure Israeli soldiers 

were killed. I don't know the numbers, but almost certainly 

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this was not only soldiers.

Q. And of the 60 wounded were they exclusively soldiers?

A. Same thing.

MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is February 25th, 1996. 

A. February 25, 1996, Jerusalem No. 18 suicide bus bombing, 

the first in a series of bus bombings. A suicide bombing on 

No. 18 bus near the central bus station in Jerusalem, Israel, 

killed 26 and injured 80.

MR. JONAS: And the next slide. 

THE WITNESS: Just a few days later, a week later 

almost to the minute, the exact same bus line, Jerusalem No. 

18, suicide bus bombing. A suicide bombing on No. 18 bus in 

Jerusalem, Israel, killing 19 and injuring 6 others.

Q. You said almost to the minute that the first one 

happened. Is that by design?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Why?

A. As we discussed earlier, terrorism is not just about 

killing or injuring the people or targeted in the actual 

attack, but it is about terrorizing society. And when Hamas 

conducts attacks against buses or other civilian targets, it 

scares people. In Israel many people take buses to work, 

children take buses to school much more than in the United 

States. It is a necessary means of transportation. And doing 

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it one week apart, after the first bus bombing there was 

severe increase in Israeli security. And the clear message is 

that "We can attack you anywhere, any time, we please," and it 

sends a message of extreme vulnerability to society.

MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is now March 4th, 1996, the next 

day. What happened?

A. The next in the string of attacks, again in Dizengoff 

Square, the main square in Tel Aviv, a suicide bomber kills 

12.

Q. We see now an attack -- First you said on March 3rd it 

was a week later on the same bus line. Now you see one on the 

next day. Do you know why on this particular time period 

there are attacks so close together?

A. There are multiple reasons, one of which is that Israel 

was preparing for a national election between Shimon Peres of 

the Labor Party, who is more dovish and a bigger supporter of 

peace. He had won the Nobel Peace Prize with Prime Minister 

Rabin and Yasser Arafat for concluding the Oslo Accords in 

1993. He was running against Benjamin Netanyahu, who was a 

much more hard line conservative politician, much less 

sanguine about the peace process. 

And before these attacks, the more dovish candidate, 

Shimon Peres, was very much ahead in the polls and ultimately 

lost. 

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It also came after the Israeli assassination of Hamas' 

most notorious bomb-maker, Yihye Ayyash, Y-I-H-Y-E 

A-Y-Y-A-S-H, and the attacks were claimed in retaliation. But 

as the investigation into the attacks unfolded, it became very 

clear the attacks had been in the planning stages long before 

Ayyash's assassination. So Hamas' claim that these were in 

retaliation for the assassination of their bomb-maker didn't 

really hold much water.

Q. Does Ayyash have a nickname?

A. The Engineer, because he engineered the suicide bombing 

vests that Hamas bombers used.

Q. As a result of these attacks with regard to the election 

that you refer to, what was the outcome, if you recall, if you 

know?

A. Netanyahu won the election, and the peace process went 

into a little bit of a tailspin. The new Israeli government 

was not as supportive of this process; much more suspicious of 

Palestinian intentions. They believed the Palestinians wanted 

to get control of the land and then not ensure security. And 

it was a very difficult time in terms of the peace process.

Q. Were these bombings -- did that have an affect on the 

outcome of the election, if you know?

A. I believe they did. These bombings are one third of my 

Ph.D. dissertation and of my recent book, so I have studied 

them in tremendous detail. Some Hamas leaders claim that this 

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was their intention. Other Hamas leaders claim, "No, we 

aren't really interested in elections. We don't like any of 

the Israeli candidates, and we just wanted to conduct an 

attack on them where we could." 

The fact that they had an impact on the election, from 

kind of a political science perspective, is very hard to 

disagree with.

Q. Those who said that the purpose of the attacks were to 

affect the election, why? Why would they want to affect the 

election and have the candidate who is dovish, as you put it, 

more peace-oriented, lose?

A. Hamas is expressly opposed to a two-state solution. It 

is expressly opposed to a negotiated compromise settlement. 

From Hamas' perspective, having an Israeli leader who is 

willing to make those compromises is not in their interest. 

It is much better to them to have an Israeli leader who will 

not further the peace process which feeds into Hamas' ideology 

that the Israelis cannot be trusted, and the only way to 

secure the Palestinian homeland is to kill Israeli civilians.

MR. JONAS: Next screen, please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is May 13th, 1996. What happened 

here?

A. U.S. citizen David Boim was killed in a shooting attack 

near the Beit El settlement in the West Bank. Using automatic 

weapons gunmen opened fire while driving by a group of 

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teenagers standing outside the Beit El settlement, killing 

17-year-old U.S. citizen David Boim and injuring one other.

Q. As a result of this shooting, did the Boim family bring a 

lawsuit in the United States?

A. They did.

Q. You mentioned earlier that Hamas has killed American 

citizens. You said so in the Hebrew University bombing. Were 

Americans killed in the Mike's Place bombing?

A. I don't know.

Q. Has Hamas specifically openly said they are targeting 

Americans?

A. Very rarely. Hamas traditionally has not, and has 

articulated its position not to target Americans. There have 

been some instances where they have threatened to do so. The 

earliest that I know of was after the arrest of Mousa Abu 

Marzook in '95 when he was arrested here in the United States, 

and then more recently Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi when he became, 

very briefly before he, too, was assassinated, the leader of 

Hamas after the assassination of Sheikh Yassin, made a public 

statement to the media suggesting that perhaps Hamas should 

now target America as well.

MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What happened here?

A. This is the July 30th, 1997 attack that I walked you 

through earlier, the one whose impact I witnessed, the Mahane 

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Yehuda suicide bombing. Two suicide bombers detonated 

themselves inside the Mahane Yehuda Market in Jerusalem 

killing 16 people. 178 were also wounded in the attack.

Q. Doctor Levitt, before we move to the next one, the 

attacks you have gone over so far and the ones we will go over 

in a few moments, are these all the suicide attacks and acts 

of terrorism committed by Hamas during this time frame of 1987 

through 2001?

A. Not by any stretch of the imagination. We don't have 

enough time today.

MR. JONAS: Next one, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What happened here?

A. In September 1997 there was a triple suicide bombing at 

the Ben Yehuda Pedestrian Mall, a street blocked off from 

traffic full of cafes. Five people were killed and 181 

wounded in three suicide bombings occurring along the 

pedestrian mall, the Ben Yehuda Pedestrian Mall in Jerusalem, 

Israel.

Q. Doctor Levitt, you testified earlier that Hamas sometimes 

will have a double suicide bombing where there will be one 

bomb, people will run away from that incident, and then there 

will another bomber where the people are running to. In the 

triple suicide bombing can you explain how that was pulled 

off?

A. Very much along the same ways. You had three bombers at 

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different points along the mall. And this mall is not just 

one street. It is one main pedestrian street and then there 

are several more coming across it. In this case, therefore, 

there were more avenues of escape, which I think explains why 

so few people were -- thankfully, so few were killed. But 181 

were wounded. As one bomb went off, the next bomber waited, I 

don't know how long, detonated his bomb, again waited, 

detonated his bomb.

MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) This is March 4th, 2001. 

A. Netanya bus stop bombing. Three people were killed and 

over 50 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated near the 

central bus station in Netanya, Israel, which is in the north 

of the country. Hamas leaders Abdel Aziz Rantisi and Mahmoud 

Zahar, both of whom were on that chart, issued separate 

statements threatening further attacks against Israel.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, if I may put the chart back 

on the easel, so Doctor Levitt may point out who he is talking 

about.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I know this is probably difficult for you 

to see. 

A. The top line on the bottom half of the orange, the two on 

the top right, Abdel Aziz Rantisi and Mahmoud Zahar, yes.

Q. Thank you. Doctor Levitt, on this timeline we see the 

prior attack being in 1997 and then the next attack being in 

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2001. You said that this timeline does not cover, by any 

stretch of the imagination, all of the Hamas attacks, but is 

there a reason why in the timeline there is a four-year break 

between the attacks?

A. There is. When the Netanyahu government, the 

conservative government, collapsed, a more dovish prime 

minister was elected, Ehud Barak, and there was again a strong 

push between Israelis and Palestinians and the Palestinian 

Authority to further the peace process. 

Keep in mind this is 1997. The Oslo Accords were 

supposed to take five years. There was one year left to this 

timeline. And there was an effort to see what could be 

accomplished by 1998; at a minimum, have sufficient momentum, 

positive momentum towards a two-state solution so that both 

parties would agree to continue past the five-year deadline. 

And so because of this there was very, very significant 

security cooperation between Israel and the Palestinian 

Authority, and crackdown on Hamas leading to its -- a lack of 

its capability to carry out the kind of qualitative suicide 

bombing and other attacks that it might have wanted to carry 

out.

Q. During this time frame what was the relationship between 

the Palestinian Authority -- Run by Fatah. Is that correct? 

A. Yes.

Q. And Hamas? 

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A. Extreme confrontation. The Palestinian Authority was 

cracking down on Hamas militants, cracking down on Hamas 

political and welfare institutions, several of which were shut 

down. The Ramallah zakat committee was shut down at one 

point, the al-Salah Society was shut down at one point, in an 

effort to deny Hamas the ability to carry out just these types 

of attacks.

Q. Starting then -- Let's go to the next attack before I ask 

that question. What happened here?

A. We are now in June 2001. A suicide bomber detonated 

amongst a crowd of youngsters, teenagers, outside the 

Dolphinarium Nightclub in Tel Aviv, killing 20 and injuring 

over 120.

Q. So now we see attacks picking up again in 2001. And just 

so we are clear, were there any attacks between 1997 and 2001?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now we are seeing some more, though. Was there an 

increase in frequency in this year?

A. Yes.

Q. Why?

A. The Camp David Accords in September 2000, as we mentioned 

earlier, failed, and that led to a sharp increase in violence. 

This second eruption of violence was also called an Intifada, 

an uprising, to mimic the uprising that had occurred that 

started in 1987. But this one was not a grassroots rebellion 

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involving mostly stone throwing. This was a militarized 

terrorist uprising involving everything from shooting attacks 

to suicide bombings. And there were more suicide bombings in 

the period starting in 2000 through about 2004 than before 

combined.

Q. Well, did the Palestinian Authority release the pressure 

they were putting on Hamas in 2000 or 2001?

A. They did.

Q. Why?

A. Part to put pressure on Israel. The peace process had 

failed. Militant groups started carrying out attacks. The 

Palestinian Authority didn't have the credibility to say, "No, 

no, stop those attacks because our peaceful process is 

working." These negotiations had just failed. So attacks 

started, and they didn't crack down on them quickly. 

Even though negotiations continued after Camp David in 

Egypt at the Red Sea resort of Taba. By that point shooting 

had already started. It quickly escalated into suicide 

bombings, and, frankly, the Palestinian Authority felt they 

had to get on this train or get run over by it.

Q. When you say get on this train, which train -- 

A. Violence.

Q. But you also said that prior to this period the 

Palestinian Authority and Hamas did not get along. 

A. Correct.

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Q. Did they start warming up to each other in 2001 when the 

violence increased?

A. They did. And there was still tension, but not only did 

the Palestinian Authority stop cracking down on Hamas; there 

were instances where the Palestinian Authority, or elements of 

the Palestinian Authority--really, to be more accurate, the 

militant wings of Fatah, which was the main part of 

Palestinian Authority--cooperatively engaged in attacks, joint 

attacks sometimes, with Hamas, and the Palestinian Authority 

didn't stop that. Sometimes they funded it.

Q. And you said -- You testified earlier that in 2005, 

through the elections Hamas, or some point Hamas became the 

government of Gaza at least. 

A. January 2006.

Q. And yet you testified they turned their guns on other 

Palestinians in 2007. Did the tension between the Palestinian 

Authority, or Fatah, and Hamas increase again at that point?

A. They increased long before then, but it obviously 

crescendoed at that time. The Palestinian Authority's, I 

wouldn't call it warming up, but their easing off on pressure 

with Hamas was, I would argue, an ill-advised but a tactical 

decision, and when they saw where it led them they reversed 

course. 

There is now Palestinian Authority intent and eager to 

negotiate a fair but a two-state negotiated compromise 

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solution. What is fair for the Palestinians may not be things 

the Israelis like, but they want to do a compromise two-state 

solution, negotiated, nonviolent.

MR. JONAS: Next slide, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What happened here?

A. In August 2001 a suicide bomber detonated inside a 

crowded Sbarro Pizza restaurant in Jerusalem. This is at the 

corner of the two most popular streets in downtown Jerusalem, 

just a block from that pedestrian mall we talked about 

earlier, killing 15 and wounding more than 90. Six children 

were among the dead.

MR. JONAS: And the last slide?

THE WITNESS: In December 2001 there was a bus 

bombing in Haifa, a city in northern Israel that is known for 

Arab-Israeli tolerance. It is about half Arab, half Israeli, 

half Jewish, that is. Fifteen Israelis were killed and over 

60 were wounded when a suicide bomber detonated aboard a 

Haifa, Israel bus in an Arab-Jewish neighborhood.

Q. Just so we are clear, all these bombings are claimed by 

Hamas. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Why would Hamas commit a suicide bombing in an Arab or 

mixed Arab-Jewish neighborhood?

A. Probably as a target of opportunity. 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor, if he is 

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speculating.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: Likely. As we mentioned earlier, 

Hamas conducts attacks, and those attacks are determined in 

terms of the ultimate target by the actual cell and the 

suicide bomber. Those final decisions on target, often there 

is guidance given--do it in this part of the country, do this 

type of attack--but the final decision is almost always a 

target of opportunity.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) The last attack on the screen was from 

December of 2001. Did attacks continue after that?

A. Yes.

Q. Turning back to the suicide bombers themselves, after a 

suicide bomber commits his act and blows himself up and kills 

people, does Hamas utilize that act and that person in a way 

to further its goals?

A. Yes.

Q. How so?

A. Two primary means. The first is propaganda. The suicide 

bomber is promoted as an ideal person who did the best 

possible thing. Posters are made of this individual, 

glorifying the suicide bomber, the act of suicide, often 

overlaying a picture of the suicide bomber against the 

backdrop of a religious site, presenting this as doing God's 

work.

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The Hamas organization or movement also takes care of 

this person's family. Hamas suicide bombers may not know 

which charities or which individuals do it, but they know it 

will be done, as I know from my interview of Hamas operatives. 

And they don't worry about it. And they are able to go into 

this attack knowing that whether they are killed or captured, 

their families will be taken care of. And that incentivizes 

the act of suicide. It certainly removes the barrier, if you 

know as a husband or a father that your family will be taken 

care of, even if you go out and kill yourself while killing 

others or get captured in the process.

Q. You say that the bomber may not know which charity or 

which person takes care of their family. Let's use that to 

move to the social wing of Hamas. Is it through the social 

wing that the bomber's family will be taken care of?

A. Yes.

Q. You mentioned that the term -- the social wing goes by 

the name Dawa?

A. Correct.

Q. Is that an Islamic or an Arabic word?

A. Yes.

Q. And what does it mean?

A. To proselytize or to preach.

Q. Is that an official name of the Hamas social wing?

A. No.

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Q. It is just a term you use to describe it?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And can you tell us again, what is the overall 

purpose of Hamas having a social wing?

A. It builds grassroots support for the organization. It 

provides for the families of its operatives. It provides 

operatives with day jobs. It provides a cover of legitimacy 

for their activities. Certainly no one is going to question 

the need for charity. Charity is a good thing. Except that 

the operatives are sometimes charity by day and terrorists by 

night. And it provides an ideal mechanism for not only 

raising under the cover of charity, but then transferring and 

laundering money, not just for the social activities but for 

all the activities of the organization.

Q. Does Hamas use it as a tool of recruitment as well?

A. Absolutely. As we mentioned earlier, you know, you get 

people into your front door and then you have an opportunity 

to interact with them, to spot them, radicalize, and recruit 

them.

Q. Is that recruitment for the military wing only?

A. No.

Q. What sort of services does the social wing provide to the 

Palestinian population?

A. Medical services, food, education, a variety of social 

welfare types of services, women's groups, soccer clubs, 

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certainly mosques, you know, study groups, a place to go; a 

wide range of activities.

Q. Let's talk about the education for a moment. We saw in 

the Hamas charter that education is important to it. Is that 

correct?

A. We did.

Q. And how does Hamas provide education to children?

A. Hamas runs some educational institutions of its own, from 

kindergartens to elementary schools, where it runs the 

curriculum and teaches children at the youngest age to look up 

to suicide bombers as an ideal in society. And then they also 

have, especially as you get into higher education, very, very 

active student groups, in particular the Islamic block, or the 

Kutla Islamiya, K-U-T-L-A I-S-L-A-M-I-Y-A.

Q. Does Hamas run all the schools in the West Bank and Gaza?

A. No.

Q. How do you know between a Hamas run school and a 

non-Hamas run school?

A. Most of the schools are run by various elements of the 

United Nations and so they are easily identifiable. Hamas run 

schools are also clear because they are affiliated with Hamas 

institutions, like the Islamic Center, the Islamic Society in 

Gaza, and they are not secretive about their ties to and 

activities on behalf of Hamas. They will hold public events 

which are all about Hamas and feature Hamas flags and Hamas 

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banners. My children go to school and put on plays. They 

will go to school and put on plays that are all about Hamas.

Q. You say they are not secretive, but do you mean to the 

local population?

A. Correct.

Q. What about to the rest of the world?

A. Well, it varies among the social welfare activities. 

Some institutions are clearly Hamas because you walk into 

their offices and they have pictures of Hamas leaders and 

posters glorifying suicide bombers and all the Hamas 

propaganda all over the place. Others don't. 

And one of the things that an academic, myself for 

example, has to be careful of is going out and interviewing 

people and just asking them and taking them at face value. 

I spoke earlier about the need to vet information you 

get--asking a Hamas official, military or social, political, 

except for those who are very well known, "Are you Hamas," 

especially over these periods where there has been crackdowns 

on Hamas, and there could be, you know, police or intelligence 

attention that you don't want to attract as a result of openly 

describing yourself as Hamas, is not necessarily likely. It 

is like going up to Al Capone and asking, "Are you an 

organized crime figure," and him saying, "No," And then going 

out and writing a report saying, "Al Capone is not an 

organized crime figure. He told me so." You need to vet your 

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information.

Q. You said when you -- used the quote you asked. Do you 

mean you yourself as an American academic?

A. Well, one would. I have done interviews like these, too. 

But when an academic goes out and interviews people and says, 

"Are you Hamas," the people that I have interviewed in jail, 

they have already been caught. They are more than willing to 

acknowledge their affiliations. 

You talk to people in various social welfare 

institutions, and I have not spent time interviewing people in 

social welfare institutions at length, but I know many others 

have, and you ask them point blank, "Are you Hamas," you can't 

take that answer at face value.

Q. And how do you know which ones are and which ones are 

not? 

MR. DRATEL? I object, Your Honor. He says he 

hasn't done the research. 

THE COURT: Overruled. He may answer. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: Research on any subject like this 

requires doing interviews, reviewing material, primary source 

documents, talking with other scholars, and vetting that 

material. So you need to talk to other scholars who are doing 

this information. You need to talk to the relevant police. 

You need to talk to other NGOs.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Have you?

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A. I have spoken to police, I have spoken to NGOs, I have 

spoken to Palestinian officials who oversee the zakat 

committees and who oversee charities--that is two different 

parts of the Palestinian government--and had extensive 

discussions with them about Hamas' role in the zakat 

committees and in charities. 

Q. Getting back to the schools for a moment, what exactly is 

taught at these schools?

A. Math, science, language, and Hamas ideology.

Q. You mentioned earlier the praising of the suicide 

bombers. 

A. Yes.

Q. Does Hamas provide supplies to the students, not just 

education but, I mean, pencils, pens, books, that sort of 

thing?

A. It does. And because Hamas is trying to build grassroots 

support among Palestinian society at large, it is not only 

providing those to its -- the people who are already are its 

followers. Providing backpacks and pencils and food during 

Muslim holidays is another means of building goodwill and 

grassroots support among the larger elements of Palestinian 

society. "Your government may not be taking care of you but 

we will."

Q. You mentioned that schools -- these Hamas schools have 

ceremonies. 

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A. Yes.

Q. Have you seen videos of some of these ceremonies?

A. Yes.

Q. And is there a particular video that comes to mind that 

you are thinking of?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that from?

A. A graduation ceremony from a kindergarten affiliated with 

the Islamic Society in Gaza.

Q. And from seeing the video of this graduation ceremony of 

the kindergarten, is it clear that this kindergarten is 

affiliated with Hamas?

A. Crystal clear.

Q. And I say the kindergarten. Of course, I mean those 

running the kindergarten and then. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would like I 

to admit Government's exhibit, what is called GOI, Government 

of Israel, No. 1, which is the kindergarten video that Doctor 

Levitt is discussing as -- Well, let me ask Doctor Levitt one 

more question on that. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, would it aid the jury in 

understanding your testimony regarding, not just the schools 

but the social wing of Hamas and how it operates, if they were 

to view that video?

A. Yes. You can't do it justice. A picture tells a 

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thousand words.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would like to 

offer that video into evidence under 703 to aid the jury in 

understanding Doctor Levitt's testimony.

MS. HOLLANDER: What is the date of this video?

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you recall the year the video -- 

A. I don't recall offhand, no.

Q. Do you remember the decade; if it was in the '90s or 

later?

A. I believe it was somewhere between 1999 and 2001 or 2002.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, since he doesn't know 

what the date was, we will object that if there is no way of 

knowing the date of this, I think that "I believe it was" is 

not sufficient for this to be relevant in this case. 

Therefore, it is not relevant, and under Rule 403 also at this 

time we would object.

THE COURT: Any other objections.

MS. HOLLANDER: And under Rule 703.

MR. CLINE: Objection under Rule 703, the probative 

value does not substantially outweigh the prejudicial effect.

THE COURT: Those objections are overruled and GOI 

No. 1 is admitted.

MR. JONAS: If we can play that video, please.

(Whereupon, Exhibit GOI No. 1 was played in open 

court, while questions were being propounded.)

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, these children are wearing 

headbands?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that?

A. These are Hamas headbands you might have seen at -- the 

kind of the skirt to the stage, it is right in front of them. 

You can't see it here, but might have seen it a moment ago, 

the Hamas emblem there, too.

Q. Doctor Levitt, these children are dressed up. Do you 

recognize who they are supposed to be, or what they are 

supposed to be?

A. Yes. You have here on the right a child that is wearing 

a pretend suicide bombing vest, on the left you have someone 

who is dressed up as a security guard, and in the middle a 

child dressed up as the leader of Hezbollah, a Lebanese 

terrorist organization in Lebanon that works closely and 

supports Hamas. It is actually a little freaky how much the 

kid looks like Nasrallah and how much the bodyguard looks like 

his well-known bodyguard.

Q. Can we go back a little bit? 

Doctor Levitt, you see there are two flags, blue and 

white flags? Can you see that on the stage?

A. Yes, on the ground.

Q. On the ground. 

A. Yes.

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Q. What flags are those?

A. It is the flag of Israel. And the idea is stomping on 

it, physically symbolically stomping out Israel. 

Q. If we can fast forward back to where we were.

Doctor Levitt, do you recognize any of the characters on 

the screen that the children are portraying?

A. Here in white you have a child portraying Sheikh Ahmed 

Yassin, the founder, spiritual leader of Hamas.

Q. That was the individual on the top of the Hamas leader 

chart?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And sitting next to his left?

A. Bodyguard and the Nasrallah wannabe.

Q. Is this a further -- What is this?

A. This is a further depiction of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. I 

mentioned earlier he is a paraplegic, and so he was in a 

wheelchair.

Q. Doctor Levitt -- By the way, have you seen other videos 

similar to this?

A. Too many.

Q. And are they all from the same institution, the Islamic 

Society? 

A. Not all.

Q. Is this typical activity that goes on in a Hamas-run 

school?

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A. Yes.

Q. Besides the education of the children and Hamas ideology 

at the school, does Hamas use the school itself, the 

structure, in any way?

A. Hamas uses the structures in its social welfare or 

civilian wings for multiple purposes, meeting places, et 

cetera. In one case documented in a State Department report 

Hamas used a kindergarten playground as a place to bury and 

stash caches of weapons.

Q. You mentioned that Hamas has kindergartens and elementary 

schools. Does it also have institutes of higher 

learning--colleges?

A. I wouldn't say Hamas has colleges, but there are colleges 

that are very closely affiliated with Hamas, and particularly 

the Islamic University of Gaza that was founded by Hamas 

leaders.

Q. Besides schools does Hamas have hospitals?

A. Yes.

Q. And what do they do at the hospitals?

A. They have medical clinics, they have hospitals, the 

hospitals serve the needs of the local population. They 

obviously -- they provide discounted, sometimes free, 

services, and that obviously builds grassroots support among 

the populous. 

Q. For the schools and the hospitals do they only -- Do the 

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schools only take in and the hospitals only treat members or 

families of members of Hamas?

A. No. That would defeat part of the purpose. They want to 

provide for their own, yes, but they also want to build 

grassroots support amongst society. And the way to win people 

over is to provide them these services. In some cases these 

are hospitals in places that hospitals are needed. In other 

places there have been documented cases where they wanted to 

set up a hospital of their own very close to a place where 

there already was an existing hospital.

Q. Like with the school I asked you about using the 

structure itself, do they use hospitals in any way other than 

treating people?

A. Again, the infrastructure is there for their use, so for 

example, the Abbas al-Sayyid, A-B-B-A-S A-L S-A-Y-Y-I-D, who 

is the mastermind behind the Park Hotel attack that we 

discussed in 2003, he recruited someone working in a hospital 

to procure cyanide for him for attacks.

Q. Cyanide from the hospital?

A. Correct.

Q. Does Hamas have ambulances?

A. Hamas has used ambulances. Hamas has members and 

supporters whom have driven ambulances and have used them to 

ferry persons or material.

Q. When you say material what do you mean?

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A. Weapons.

Q. Do they have libraries?

A. They do.

Q. What do they use the libraries for?

A. A library serves a function for the community. The 

community is grateful for the library, builds grassroots 

support. It is also a place where again they can use the 

infrastructure, and they are able to use, for example in one 

documented case, the photocopiers in the library to make 

copies of their communiques, their propaganda, to distribute 

within the community.

Q. What about mosques?

A. Same thing. Hamas does run mosques. Hamas uses the 

mosques in multiple ways. First of all, there will be 

preachers in the mosque who will preach a particularly Hamas 

message. There will be religious study classes in the mosque 

where potential recruits can be spotted, approached, 

radicalized, and recruited. And in some cases mosques have 

been used for logistical support for military attacks. 

Again, this Park Hotel bombing Passover March 2003, the 

planning meetings were held in a Hamas mosque. The drop-off 

point for the suicide bombing belts was in the mosque. There 

was a cabinet people knew not to go into. The bombing belts 

were left behind a urinal in the mosque bathroom, and notes 

were delivered among the operatives hidden behind the carpet 

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which went up the wall, a little bit like a lip, and they left 

notes for each other there.

Q. I should have asked you this before, but what is a 

mosque?

A. A mosque is a place of worship, like a church or a 

temple, for the Muslim faith.

MR. JONAS: This is a good stopping place, if you 

want to break for lunch.

THE COURT: All right. Let's break for lunch. Be 

back at 1:45. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 1:45.

(Lunch Recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas?

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, before we broke for lunch 

we were talking about the social services that Hamas' social 

wing provides--the schools, mosques, hospitals, et cetera.

How does Hamas administer all these social services?

A. It provides these services through a variety of 

institutions, funds them through charity committees, and 

oversees them through the political echelon.

Q. I want to talk about the institutions. Do these 

institutions have a particular name? I don't mean the 

individual institutions, but by category. 

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A. Again, they are often referred to as the Dawa 

institutions.

Q. Are you familiar with the term zakat committee?

A. I am.

Q. And what is a zakat committee?

A. Zakat committee is a charity tee committee. Zakat is a 

particular kind of charity that practicing Muslims are 

required to donate from their income, and a charity committee 

is a place where you can give that charity and which will then 

disburse it onward to organizations that provide for the 

needy.

Q. Are there zakat committees in the West Bank and Gaza?

A. There are.

Q. Are they regional?

A. They are regional. They are often by city or by town 

organized.

Q. Are all charitable committees zakat committees?

A. No.

Q. What is the difference?

A. A zakat committee is specifically a committee whose 

purpose is to collect zakat contributions specifically and 

then divvy them out, and charity committees could be providing 

any type of service or other type of charity. 

Also charity committees collect are other types of 

charity. Within the Palestinian Authority, for example, 

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charities and social service organizations are overseen 

through an office that oversees non-governmental 

organizations, NGOs, while zakat committees are overseen by 

the Ministry of Awqaf, which is the Ministry for Religious 

Endowment.

Q. Why are there two different offices overseeing these 

institutions?

A. Because the zakat committees are part of religious 

practice. They are sacred in a sense, and so they are 

overseen by the ministry responsible for religious affairs, 

whereas charities are not necessarily religious. They cover 

the full spectrum of political or ideological basis and full 

spectrum of activity, and they are overseen by this NGO 

department.

Q. Are there zakat committees that are controlled by Hamas?

A. There are.

Q. Are there other charitable institutions, non-zakat 

committees that are controlled by Hamas?

A. There are.

Q. You testified earlier, I think it was yesterday, that 

Israel licensed some what was then the Palestinian branch of 

the Muslim Brotherhood social institutions against a buffer 

against some of the more violent organizations. Do you recall 

that?

A. Correct. 

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Q. Did Israel license any of the Hamas zakat committees?

A. I don't know. I do know that they were licensed by the 

Palestinian Authority under the Ministry of Endowment, the 

Ministry of Awqaf, when the is Palestinian Authority came into 

power, almost as a matter of -- almost automatically, as those 

officials have explained it to me.

Q. Let's try to break this down by time frame. Up till 

Oslo, before the Palestinian Authority was created, was Israel 

in charge of administering -- of overseeing the zakat 

committees and the charitable committees?

A. Yes. The military occupation would have been in charge 

of all these things, and I assume they licensed them but I 

don't know.

Q. You said the other day that they did license some of the 

Sheikh Yassin organizations. 

A. Yes. They licensed the Islamic Center, the Islamic 

Society, they gave permission for opening many more mosques.

Q. All that was done before Hamas was formed?

A. Before Hamas was formed.

Q. Once Hamas was formed did Israel continue to license 

these organizations?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did there ever come a point when Israel revoked the 

licenses of any of those organizations?

A. Yes.

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Q. When was that?

A. Over the course of the peace process since 1993, Israel 

has periodically shut down some of these committees, some of 

these charities in the West Bank and Gaza, not only revoking 

the license but actually shutting them down, as has the 

Palestinian Authority.

Q. Would these be the Hamas committees?

A. Yes.

Q. And then in 1994, 1993, when the Palestinian Authority 

came into existence, you said they had two parts of the 

Government that oversaw the committees--one over zakat 

committees and one over non-zakat charitable committees. 

A. That is right.

Q. And you mentioned -- Did the Palestinian Authority 

license both sets of charities?

A. They did.

Q. Have you studied that process?

A. I have.

Q. And what does it take to let a license by the Palestinian 

Authority?

A. Well, for the zakat committees, because they are sacred, 

because they are part of religious practice, there is almost 

no such thing, in fact I don't know of any case where a zakat 

sought a license and did not receive one. Only recently now 

in the past year has the Palestinian Authority started to deny 

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some licenses and do checks to make sure that these were 

actual legitimate zakat committees before licensing them, and 

has gotten some flak for it from society. But until very 

recently I know of no instance where a zakat committee sought 

a license and did not get one, because these were religious, 

they were sacred. It would be a very, very sensitive issue to 

deny establishment of a committee established to channel 

religious charity.

Q. Did the Palestinian Authority ever shut down any of the 

zakat committees? I don't mean recently. I am talking in the 

'90s to early 2000. 

A. Yes.

Q. If it is sensitive to not license one of these 

organizations because they are religious, how is it that they 

then can shut them down?

A. With difficulty. All the ones that they have shut down, 

as far as I know, were later reopened. There is a lot of 

public pressure. But the information that they had at the 

time led them to believe that they had to shut down these 

charities because they were not only engaged in charitable 

work.

Q. What other type of work were they engaging in?

A. These were Hamas committees that were involved in other 

work, political or military, for Hamas.

Q. As an expert who studies Hamas, what does it mean to you 

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if a zakat committee has a license on the wall?

A. Effectively it doesn't mean anything. If there is no 

such thing, until recently, of denying an application for a 

zakat committee, then to be licensed doesn't really have much 

meaning.

Q. Now, you said something happened recently. How recent? 

You said within the past year. Is that correct?

A. Within the past year, since June 2007.

Q. What has happened?

A. Again, in June 2007 Hamas militarily took over the Gaza 

Strip, and since then you have had a Hamas government in Gaza 

and a more moderate Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. 

The Palestinian Authority doesn't have any control or say over 

Gaza, but in the West Bank they do. 

Recognizing that Hamas' strength came not just through 

the charitable but political and military activities that were 

being conducted through ostensibly charitable organizations, 

they have begun a top to bottom review of charities and zakat 

committees both. They are removed the Hamas leadership from 

almost every zakat committee. They have begun enforcing the 

Palestinian Authority regulation that these committees must 

have a general assembly of members who then every one or two 

years votes for a new board. And they have begun shutting 

down charities that are funding -- supporting things other 

than charity.

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Q. How is it that Hamas -- How is it that the zakat 

committees that Hamas controls further their ultimate goal of 

destroying Israel?

A. By providing grassroots support, by publicizing and 

getting out Hamas' message that there is a religious 

requirement to engage in this violent jihad, that it is 

religiously impermissible to agree to a negotiated compromised 

two-state solution, by providing day jobs to operatives, by 

providing a means through which logistical support for 

operations and financing for all Hamas activities can come 

through, the social welfare activity is the backbone of Hamas.

Q. Would you say that they use a social welfare activity to 

win the hearts and minds of the Palestinian people?

A. Exactly what they do.

Q. Are there other terrorist groups, other Palestinian 

terrorist groups that don't have a social side like Hamas 

does?

A. There are.

Q. So why is it so important for Hamas to win the hearts and 

minds of the Palestinian people?

A. Because Hamas doesn't want to be only engaged in military 

activity. Hamas wants to become the representative of the 

Palestinian people. Hamas is a movement, not just engaged in 

terrorism but the movement supports that terrorism; whereas 

other groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad have at any given 

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time had maybe three or four or five charities to their name 

and were never particularly invested in that activity.

Q. Are there -- I am sorry. I may have asked you this 

already, but I can't recall exactly. Does Hamas control every 

zakat committee in the West Bank and Gaza?

A. No.

Q. Do they control a majority of them?

A. They control many.

Q. Are there other terrorist groups that control other zakat 

committees?

A. Charities, but not to my knowledge zakat committees.

Q. Are there zakat committees and charities that are not 

affiliated with any terrorist organizations?

A. Many.

Q. Have there been studies done on this?

A. There have.

Q. Anything recently?

A. The Center for the Study of the Presidency here in the 

United States published a report based on extensive research 

in the West Bank, it is called the "NGO Mapping Project," 

trying to identify what NGO charities committees are out 

there, which ones are distinctly political, affiliated with 

one political party or another, which ones are engaged in 

violence, trying to highlight those that are not political and 

engaged in violence but actually are just trying to alleviate 

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the real suffering of the Palestinian people as opposed to 

pursuing their political or military objectives, and trying to 

put them in touch not only with each other, but with the 

international donor community to facilitate serious charity to 

the Palestinian people that is not tied to a particular 

political strain or militant activity.

Q. Does Hamas provide the majority of the aid to the 

Palestinian people?

A. No.

Q. Who does?

A. The international community; primarily the United 

Nations, the European Union, the United States.

Q. How do you identify which zakat committees are Hamas and 

which ones aren't?

A. Sometimes they are open about it in terms of the stuff 

that is on their walls. Sometimes authorities identify them, 

Palestinian Authority, Israelis, American authorities, 

European authorities, the European Union at one point was 

trying to find Palestinian partner NGOs and did a survey to 

try and make sure they were not funding Hamas NGOs. I have 

met with all those types of people. And by reviewing material 

found at the zakat committees, interviewing officials who have 

conducted these studies, they are able to put together a 

pretty clear picture.

Q. Do you also look at the leadership of the committee?

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A. Clearly.

Q. For what purpose?

A. If the leadership of the committee is dominated by Hamas 

members, that suggests the leaning of the committee. If not 

that the committee itself is Hamas, that there are Hamas 

people in a position of authority able to channel that 

committee's activities towards their group.

Q. Have you ever visited a zakat committee?

A. I have never felt the need.

Q. Why not?

A. The material out there is so publicly available, there 

have been so many studies done. I have met with officials who 

have gone out there, Palestinians, Israelis, Americans, 

Europeans. I don't feel the need to go and see with my own 

two eyes every single institution out there that is relevant 

to a particular group.

Q. You say that some zakat committees are involved in 

non-charitable activities. Does that apply to every Hamas 

zakat committee?

A. I haven't studied every Hamas zakat committee, but those 

that I have studied are all involved in more than just 

charitable activities.

Q. Have you researched individuals from zakat committees who 

are engaged in supporting the military wing of Hamas?

A. I have.

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Q. I am going to ask you some names and tell me if you 

recognize the names. Okay.

A. Okay.

Q. Fadel Muhammad Salah Hamdan?

A. Fadel Hamdan was associated with the Ramallah zakat 

committee north of Jerusalem, and was implicated in supporting 

suicide bombings, including the July 1997 Mahane Yehuda 

bombing I described earlier.

Q. Ahmed Sultana?

A. Ahmed Sultana was at one time the head of the Jenin zakat 

committee farther north in the West Bank, and was implicated 

in the early '90s in transferring bomb making materials for 

Hamas and in a 1993 car bombing.

Q. Fawaz Hamdan?

A. Fawaz Hamdan was also involved with the Jenin zakat 

committee, as well as the al-Ghazi Hospital that the Jenin 

zakat committee was tied to. He was implicated in aiding 

Hamas fugitives who were running from authorities and in 

funding weapons purchases.

Q. Jammal Tawil?

A. Jammal Tawil was actually a member of the Hamas Qassam 

Brigade, the terrorist wing, who was having a hard time 

getting money in from the Hamas leadership in Damascus, and at 

their suggestion opened up a branch of al-Islah Charity in the 

Ramallah region for the express purpose of laundering money 

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into the West Bank under the title of charity but for the 

military wing.

Q. Khalil Dar Rashed?

A. Rashed was affiliated with the Orphan Care Society in 

Bethlehem and sheltered Hamas terrorists, including Muhi a-Din 

a-Sharif, who was a Hamas bomb maker, as well as Hassan 

Salameh, who was the organizer for the string of suicide bus 

bombings we discussed earlier in late February and early March 

1996.

Q. You talked about -- what services Hamas social wing 

provides to the Palestinian people and the purpose of that. 

Have you seen instances where the Palestinian population have 

returned the favor, I guess as a way of describing it, or 

indebtedness that they owe to Hamas?

A. There are many cases like that. And it is human nature. 

If someone supports you, you are going to want to do something 

back in return. Often these people don't necessarily know 

that they are doing something for the military wing, but if 

Hamas approaches someone saying, "You are a taxi driver. Next 

time you go north in the West Bank, will you take this 

package," or "Here is a brother who needs a roof over his 

head; you won't ask if he is a fugitive." Those are both 

examples that were given to me by Palestinian authorities, for 

example.

Q. In your opinion would Hamas be as successful as it has 

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been if it did not have a social wing?

A. Absolutely not.

Q. I want to turn your attention to the political wing, 

which is the top of the triangle. You already testified that 

Khalid Mishal and Mousa Abu Marzook are the top two leaders of 

the political wing. Can you discuss some more how the 

political wing operates?

A. There is this shura or consultative council, at the top 

of which is Khalid Mishal and Mousa Abu Marzook. Several 

other senior Hamas leaders based in Damascus are on this 

council, and they each have responsibility for different 

things--social welfare activity, media activity, military 

activity, liaison to other groups. And then in the West Bank 

and Gaza there will be local leaders and there will be local 

consultative councils with similar committees--media 

committees, military committees, financial committees. And 

they will report, as in any bureaucratic structure, you know, 

the local committee will report to the senior committee.

Q. It sounds like Hamas requires a lot of money to operate. 

Would that be a fair statement?

A. It does.

Q. Do they get this money from the local Palestinian 

population?

A. They get some from local Palestinian population, but very 

little. We are talking about a population that in general 

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doesn't have a lot of money to give.

Q. So where do they get most of the money from?

A. They get their money from foreign donations; in part from 

some countries that support them, in particular Iran, and to a 

lesser extent Syria. Syria provides safe haven for their 

leaders and that type of support more than it does financial 

support. And they get the majority of their funding through 

charitable donations, collected worldwide, whether here in the 

United States or Europe, elsewhere in the Middle East, 

funneled through the zakat committees.

Q. How does Hamas view the United States?

A. Not positively. It views the United States as a 

supporter of Israel. It views the United States as a 

supporter of the two-state compromise solution, which it 

expressly opposes. It sees the United States as imposing this 

compromise on the Palestinians when, in their view, the 

Palestinians should not be compromising but should be 

establishing a Palestinian Islamist state in all of historic 

Palestine.

Q. How about in terms of money does it view the United 

States? 

A. Hamas believes it has been very successful in raising 

money the United States and sees the United States as somewhat 

of a cash cow.

Q. You testified yesterday about the Hamas charter, you 

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talked about economic jihad being the responsibility -- or 

jihad being the responsibility of every Muslim, per the 

charter. 

A. Yes.

Q. Would that be every Muslim worldwide?

A. Yes.

Q. Would that include Muslims in the United States?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. As someone who studies Hamas and terrorist 

organizations, do you study also the designation lists by the 

United States?

A. I do.

Q. And what are the designation lists?

A. The United States government will identify particular 

groups, foreign groups, and designate or list them on a list 

of terrorist groups, and that has certain repercussions. And 

then there is -- That is a list that is maintained by the 

State Department called the foreign terrorist organization 

list. 

And then there is another list which is managed by the 

Treasury Department, specially designated terrorists, and it 

targets individuals or organizations, not just the overall 

terrorist group, and those can be people outside or inside the 

United States.

Q. Which list came out first?

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A. The Treasury list came out first in 1995. The State 

Department list came out in 1997.

Q. Was Hamas on both those lists?

A. Charter member of each list.

Q. If you can turn to the documents in front of you, the 

first one should be marked Designation 2. Do you have that?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that document? Do you recognize that document?

A. I do.

Q. What is that document?

A. This is the Presidential Executive Order 12,947 in the 

Federal Register prohibiting transactions with terrorists who 

threaten to disrupt the Middle East peace process.

Q. Is this one of those lists you are talking about or the 

item that creates one of those lists?

A. Exactly.

Q. Which list would this be creating?

A. This is the special designated terrorist list.

Q. Who administers the list?

A. Treasury.

Q. When did this come out?

A. This came out in 1995.

Q. Has the list grown since it came out in 1995? 

A. It has.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I offer into 

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evidence Designation 2.

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, page 1 

first.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) That is the item on the screen, Doctor 

Levitt?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If you can turn to the second page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, do you see the paragraph 

that starts "I, William J. Clinton"?

A. I do.

Q. Just read that paragraph. 

A. "I, William J. Clinton, President of the United States of 

America, find that grave acts of violence committed by foreign 

terrorists that disrupt the Middle East peace process 

constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national 

security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States, 

and hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that 

threat."

Q. Doctor Levitt, just so we are clear, this isn't the 

actual specially designated terrorist list itself, is it?

A. No. This is the announcement that the government is 

required to publish in the Federal Register.

Q. Is this the first time that any organization or 

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individual was designated as a specially designated terrorist 

when this list came out, this document?

A. I believe it was.

Q. This was January 23rd, 1995?

A. January 25th. 

Q. 25th. Sorry. 

MR. JONAS: Can you turn to the fourth page, please? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is the title of that page?

A. This is an annex of terrorist organizations which 

threaten to disrupt the Middle East peace process.

Q. Is Hamas on this list?

A. It is.

Q. Are there also Israeli or Jewish extreme terrorist 

organizations on the list?

A. Yes.

Q. Would this list be considered sort of -- You said charter 

member Hamas. Is this the charter club for specially 

designated terrorists?

A. This is they.

Q. And from here over time were names or groups added?

A. Yes.

Q. If we can turn to the next document in front of you, it 

should be marked Designation 4. Do you have that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And what is that document?

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A. This is a certified copy of one of the designations, the 

Treasury designations.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I offer into evidence 

Designation No. 4. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, who is the United States 

designating with this?

A. Mousa Abu Marzook.

Q. Who is he then?

A. He is the deputy head of the Hamas Political Bureau.

Q. Doctor Levitt, is he the gentleman on the top of the top 

three on the far right?

A. Top right, yes.

Q. When was Mousa Abu Marzook designated as a terrorist?

A. August 16th, 1995.

Q. Was this several months after the original designation 

came out by the President?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Do you have before you what has been marked -- 

MR. JONAS: One moment, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you have you before what is marked 

Designation No. 5?

A. I do.

Q. What is that document?

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A. This is a certified copy of the designation of Sheikh 

Ahmed Yassin.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I offer into 

evidence designation No. 5.

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If you will put that on the screen, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And when did this -- When was Sheikh 

Yassin designated?

A. January 23rd, 1995.

Q. Was that right about the time Hamas was designated 

itself?

A. Yes.

Q. And again, on this chart of Hamas leaders in the 1990s, 

Demonstrative No. 17, is Sheikh Yassin the gentleman in the 

middle top?

A. Top middle, yes.

Q. On the designation list run by Treasury that we have been 

discussing the past few minutes, that came out originally in 

1995 with the President executive order, and then we just 

talked about Marzook and Yassin, is there distinction in terms 

of enforcement ability by the United States between that type 

of list and the other list you talked about earlier that is 

run by the State Department?

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A. Two things. The first is that the State Department list, 

the foreign terrorist organization list, is just that. It can 

only target foreign terrorist organizations; whereas this list 

can target individuals and organizations not just the kind of 

macro level terrorist organization but component parts, and 

also can target persons and entities in the United States.

Q. And what about in terms of enforcement? Is there a 

distinction?

A. The foreign terrorist organization designation makes it 

illegal to provide material support to those organizations. 

The Treasury list enables the government to freeze assets 

belonging to listed individuals or entities, and to block 

transactions to or from those persons or entities.

Q. All right. If you have before you the last document, it 

is entitled Federal Register. That is the exhibit name. Do 

you have that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recognize that document?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that?

A. This is the Federal Register for October 8th, 1997, 

notice from the Department of State the designation of foreign 

terrorist organizations, the list of FTOs, foreign terrorist 

organizations.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I offer into 

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evidence Government's Exhibit Federal Register. 

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And is Hamas on that list, Doctor Levitt?

A. It is.

Q. Was this the original first list to come out of foreign 

terrorist organizations?

A. Yes.

Q. When did this come out?

A. This is dated October 8th, 1997.

Q. Doctor Levitt, I want to go back to something you said a 

few moments ago before we talked about the designations. I 

asked you where the money comes from for Hamas, and I asked 

you about the Palestinian population, whether it comes from 

any of them, and you said that they don't have a lot of money. 

Would you say that there is a desperate need among the 

Palestinian population?

A. Overall, yes.

Q. Does Hamas take advantage of this desperate need?

A. Absolutely.

Q. How so?

A. Hamas on the one hand does provide charity and services, 

but Hamas' attacks in the first instance are the primary 

reason peace has not been achievable, they are the key reason 

that violence continues and that the Palestinian economy has 

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not grown, and just recently, for example, now that Hamas is 

in control of Gaza, Gazans are much more poorer off than 

Palestinians in the West Bank. And when Israel under 

international pressure, mostly from the United States, opened 

up or tried to open up a crossing point to deliver food and 

medicine and humanitarian aid, Hamas shelled the crossing with 

mortars and rockets, and the only people that suffered from 

that where are the Palestinians.

MR. JONAS: One moment, Your Honor. 

Your Honor, I will pass the witness.

THE COURT: Okay. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Cline: 

Q. Good afternoon, Doctor Levitt. 

A. Good afternoon.

Q. I want to ask you questions about the last part of your 

examination there, the designation process and the list. 

Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. You testified a little bit about the process by which 

people and organizations can be designated by the United 

States as terrorists. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And I want to go through the ways that can happen. One 

way is that you can be designated under Executive Order 

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12,947, which just came into evidence, as a specially 

designated terrorist. Correct?

A. That is one.

Q. And that is also known as an SDT?

A. Specially designated terrorist or SDT, yes.

Q. All right. Another way that a person can be, or an 

organization, can be designated as a terrorist is under 

Executive Order 13,224 as a specially designated global 

terrorist. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that is an SDGT?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. 

A. It gets complicated.

Q. A lot of acronyms there. 

A. That is government for you.

Q. Yeah. A third way that an organization can be designated 

as a terrorist is by the State Department as a foreign 

terrorist organization. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And that is also known as an FTO. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, regardless of which of those three ways a person or 

an organization is designated, they get put on a list 

maintained by the Treasury Department called a specially 

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designated national and blocked persons list. Correct?

A. If they are on the Treasury list.

Q. Well, they get on there if they are on the State 

Department list as well as FTOs, do they not?

A. I think most FTOs are on the Treasury list, but I don't 

think it is necessarily automatic that something on the State 

list ends up blocked as well. The State Department authority 

is not a blocking authority. Only Treasury's is a blocking 

authority.

Q. I am going to show you some examples here in a minute, 

and I think we will see instances where the FTOs are on the 

Treasury list as well. Okay? 

A. That is my point. They have to be on the Treasury list 

as well.

Q. They end up on the Treasury list as well. Correct? 

A. Again, if they are so listed -- It is not automatic. You 

don't get designated by State. Treasury has to list you as 

well. State's list does not include blocking or freezing 

authorities.

Q. I think we are saying the same thing. 

A. Okay. 

MR. CLINE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) Mr. Levitt, I want to show you what has 

been marked as Defense Exhibit 963, and it is a version of the 

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Treasury list from June 29th, 2001. And I am -- I don't have 

a bunch of copies of this because it is so big, but I am going 

to show you a copy of this and have you identify it. All 

right? I just want you to tell me if this is the Treasury 

list from June 29th, 2001?

A. This looks like a print-up of the list from Westlaw, one 

of the legal databases. I mean, do you want me to flip --

Q. No. I just want you to identify it. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I move this version of the 

list from June 29th, 2001 into evidence. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas.

MR. JONAS: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) And just to orient you, Doctor Levitt, 

the reason I picked June 29th, 2001 is that the latest 

transaction in the indictment is June 14th, 2001. So the 

times are close. Are you with me?

A. Gotcha.

Q. All right. What I would like to do is just pick a couple 

of examples from this list. And by the way, although I 

printed this from a legal website, the Treasury Department 

maintains this list on its website. Correct?

A. It does.

Q. It is publicly available?

A. It does. It might not be that version. There would be 

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an updated version if we were to go on today, but it would be 

an updated version of this list.

Q. Right. And in fact what happens is, as new persons and 

new organizations get added to the list, the list is regularly 

updated. Correct?

A. Correct. And you can still see when someone was added to 

the list, but it will be the full list.

Q. Right. And so, for example, if we were to pull up the 

list today, it would be considerably larger than the list I am 

holding in my hands, Exhibit 963, because a number of persons 

and organizations have been added over the years. Correct?

A. There have been more added, yes.

Q. All right. Now, I just want to show one example from 

this list. I would like to zoom in on this. 

All right. Now, Doctor Levitt, do you see at the bottom 

of that page the listing for Hamas.

A. I do.

Q. And it includes, of course, the name Hamas. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then there are a number of other names by which Hamas 

is known. Correct?

A. Some of them; by no means all.

Q. But some of the names by which Hamas is known. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And then if you look at the very end of the Hamas entry, 

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you see some initials. Correct?

A. You are referring to SDT and FTO.

Q. Right. You see SDT, which indicates that as of 2001 

Hamas had been designated a specially designated terrorist. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you see FTO, and that indicates that as of June 29th, 

2001 Hamas had been designated a foreign terrorist 

organization. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, since June 29th, 2001, Hamas has also been 

designated a specially designated global terrorist. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And so if you looked at a current version of this list, 

you would see in that bracketed space at the end SDGT as well. 

Correct?

A. I don't know if what you would see is SDGT instead or in 

addition to SDT. I don't know if the new 2001 list superseded 

and included this or if they are separate.

Q. In any event, you would see SDGT. Correct?

A. You should, yes.

Q. And if one were to pull up the Treasury Department list 

on the website where it is publicly available, one would see 

an updated version of the Hamas entry. Correct?

A. Updated with the SDGT; and again, it may have SDT there 

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also. I don't know.

Q. All right. Just to take another example, that was page 

59 of Defense Exhibit 963. I just want to show you another 

example because you talked about Mousa Abu Marzook. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And he was designated an SDT, I think you testified, on 

August 16th, 1995. Right?

A. I think that is the date, yes.

Q. All right. So let me show you page 3 of the exhibit. 

And about a third of the way down the page you see the name 

Abu Marzook. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And again, it has got some AKAs, some other names by 

which Mr. Marzook was known. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And then at the end in brackets you have SDT. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that stands for specially designated terrorist. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you know from that bracketed set of initials that Mr. 

Marzook was designated under Executive Order 12,947. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And if we were to look at the current version of 

the list, you would find Mr. Marzook's name, he would likely 

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have an SGTD there. Correct?

A. Because he has been designated under that newer 

authority, yes.

Q. Right. And that happened evidently sometime after June 

29, 2001. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And again, this is something that anybody could pull up 

on the Treasury Department website and find. Correct? The 

current version, I mean. 

A. The current version, and it is slightly different than 

the version you have pulled up here in part, I think, because 

the dates are there next to each of those initials. So it 

would tell you, for example, that he was designated an SDT in 

'95, for example, and FTO in '97.

Q. The formatting may be a little different on the website, 

it may have some additional information, but the names would 

be there on the website. Correct?

A. They should be there.

Q. All right. Now, we just talked about Mr. Marzook and the 

fact that he was designated in August of '95. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, Sheikh Yassin, the founder of Hamas, I think you 

testified was designated in January of 1995. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. As an SDT?

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A. Correct.

Q. So, again, if one were to look at this list, one would 

find Sheikh Yassin designated as an SDT, and perhaps now as an 

SDGT as well. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And some other Hamas figures have been designated over 

the years as well. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Khalid Mishal was designated an SGDT. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Specially designated global terrorist. Abdel Aziz 

Rantisi was designated, was he not?

A. He was.

Q. These are people who are on your chart here. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Ahmad al-Alami has been designated?

A. That is right.

Q. And then in addition to these individuals that have been 

designated, certain organizations that the U.S. government 

considers to be part of the Hamas funding network have been 

designated as well. Correct?

A. Fewer, but yes, there have been some.

Q. And among the ones that have designated, there is an 

organization called Interpal. Right?

A. That is right.

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Q. CBSP, al-Asqa, Sanabil, those are names that you know. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And those entities have been indicated as SGDTs. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, are you familiar with an organization called the 

al-Salah Society?

A. Yes.

Q. And that is a charitable society that is located in Gaza. 

Correct?

A. It is located in Gaza. It is involved in charity. 

According to the U.S. government it has been involved in other 

activities for Hamas as well.

Q. And that is what I am about to get to, in fact. The 

al-Salah Society was designated last August, August 2007, as 

an SDGT. Correct?

A. Yes. I am not -- I don't have the date at my fingertips. 

It sounds right.

Q. Al-Salah was designated as a specially designated global 

terrorist. Is that right? 

A. That is right.

Q. And you were aware of that when it happened, or very 

shortly afterwards?

A. Yes. 

MR. CLINE: May I approach, Your Honor? 

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THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) I want to hand you what I have marked as 

Defense Exhibit 1052, which is the Treasury Department 

announcement of the designation of Al-Salah Society. Do you 

recognize that?

A. Yes, I do. This is the print --

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I offer this.

THE WITNESS: Pardon? 

MR. CLINE: I am talking to the Judge. 

Your Honor, I offer this into evidence.

MR. JONAS: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) This was a release that was put out by 

the Treasury Department on August 7th, 2007 reporting the 

designation of the al-Salah Society. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And if you look at the second paragraph, there is a 

statement there by the director of the Treasury Department 

Office of Foreign Assets Control, or OFAC. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. And that man's name is Adam Szubin. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. At the end of that paragraph Mr. Szubin, the head of the 

Office of Foreign Assets Control says, "Today's action alerts 

the world to the true nature of al-Salah and cuts it off from 

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the U.S. financial system." Correct?

A. Correct. It is only half the statement, though. The 

other half is that Treasury is warning that al-Salah Society, 

as have many other charitable fronts, has been used by Hamas 

to finance its terrorist agenda.

Q. Right. "Hamas has used the al-Salah Society, as it has 

many other charitable fronts, to finance its terrorist 

agenda." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And he goes on to say, "Today's action alerts the world 

to the true nature of al-Salah and cuts it off from the U.S. 

Financial system." Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And in fact, the designation of al-Salah criminalized 

American donations to that organization. Correct?

A. It enabled us to freeze its assets, yes.

Q. Well, I want to be specific. The designation of al-Salah 

criminalized American donations to that organization. Right?

A. In effect, yes. This is the Treasury designation, which 

enables blocking and freezing, but by publicly outing, if you 

will, al-Salah as Hamas, and since Hamas is on the FTO list, 

which makes it illegal to provide material support to Hamas or 

components of Hamas, that would be criminal. It is kind of a 

one plus one equals two.

Q. So the designation of al-Salah criminalized American 

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donations to al-Salah. Correct?

A. In effect, yes.

Q. And the designation of al-Salah also officially informed 

banks and donors of the organization's ties to and activities 

on behalf of Hamas. Correct?

A. Correct. And also highlighted banks and the donor and 

charitable communities that Hamas has other charities that do 

the same.

Q. In August 2007 this was. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. But in particular this designation officially informed 

banks and donors of the organization of the organization's 

ties to and activities on behalf of Hamas. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, you are aware, are you not, that the indictment in 

this case alleges financial transfers to a series of 

particular zakat committees and charitable societies in the 

West Bank. Correct?

A. Excuse me. Yes, I am.

Q. And I want to go through these. It may be that we can 

speed this up after we start, but I just want to go through 

them one by one and ask you some questions about each one. 

Let me start with the Qalqilya zakat committee. Okay.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Did the name of the Qalqilya zakat committee appear on 

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the Treasury Department list at any time before June 14th, 

2001, which I am using because it is the last transaction in 

the indictment?

A. No. Of course, that is not the only way for people to be 

aware of Qalqilya ties to Hamas, but it is not on that 

particular list.

Q. I take it the answer is no, the name is not on the list. 

A. That is what I said.

Q. Does the name of the Qalqilya zakat committee appear on 

the Treasury Department list today?

A. No.

Q. The Islamic charity society of Hebron. Does that name 

appear on the list -- Did it appear on the list as of June 

14th, 2001?

A. No.

Q. And it doesn't appear there today either. Correct?

A. No.

Q. I will go through the rest of them correctively, and 

let's see if the answers are the same. Okay? The Tulkarm 

zakat committee, the Nablus zakat committee, the Ramallah 

zakat committee, the Jenin zakat committee, and the Islamic 

Science and Culture committee, is it fair to say that the 

names of none of those organizations appeared on the Treasury 

Department list as of June 14th, 2001?

A. Those names do not.

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Q. And today they don't appear on that list either. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Were the names of any members of the board of any of 

those zakat committees that I have named to you, did the names 

of any of the board members of those zakat committees appear 

on the Treasury Department list as of June 14th, 2001?

A. Not to my knowledge, though, as you said, it is a very 

big list, but I don't think so.

Q. And today?

A. Same.

Q. Not to your knowledge?

A. Correct.

Q. And a few minutes ago you identified, I can't recall the 

names, but four or five people that you say are associated 

with certain zakat committees. I think one of them was 

Ramallah one of them was Jenin. Do you remember that?

A. Correct.

Q. Did the names of any of those people, or did they as of 

June 14th, 2001, appear on the Treasury Department list?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Thank you. 

MR. CLINE: That is all my questions. 

THE COURT: Ms. Hollander? 

CROSS EXAMINATION

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By Ms. Hollander: 

Q. Good afternoon, Doctor Levitt. 

A. Good afternoon.

Q. I have several different areas to ask you about.

First of all, kind of where you left off with the 

Prosecutor, you have spoken and written about the desperate 

need in Palestine, haven't you?

A. I have.

Q. Okay. That is not a question even in dispute, is it?

A. Not in my mind.

Q. Okay. And to be a little more specific, since we all 

might conjure up different ideas of what desperate need is, in 

your book -- This book, and I am referring not to your newest 

book but to the book Hamas at the moment, this book was 

published in 2006, and it covered a time period before then, 

obviously. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. At the time you wrote that book, you said, and I 

believe you would agree, "That the unemployment are rate in 

the West Bank and Gaza actually would rise as high as over 33 

percent." Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And that three-fourths of the population, three-fourths 

of the Palestinian population lived below the poverty line of 

$2 a day. Correct?

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A. Correct. And I don't remember what the time frame on 

that was, but --

Q. It was in that time period the '90s to 2002, I believe. 

A. By definition it had to be before 2006, but the numbers 

are accurate.

Q. The numbers are accurate?

A. Yeah, for whatever the time frame was I laid out in the 

book. Sometimes Palestinians could fare fairly well, and 

sometimes Palestinians didn't do very well.

Q. Let's go by what you said in your book, then, and I will 

quote, "With the struggling economy and limited employment 

opportunities, it is not surprising that by 2004 approximately 

three-fourths of the Palestinian population living in the West 

Bank and Gaza survived below the poverty line of $2 a day." 

A. In 2004 at the height of Hamas attacks that is not 

surprising.

Q. I don't believe I asked you about Hamas attacks right 

now. You have talked about those, and you will get plenty of 

opportunity to talk about them again. But right now we are 

talking about the desperate need, and if you would just answer 

my questions, I would appreciate it.

A. It explains the desperate need. Let's not be facetious.

Q. Who occupies -- What is the occupying country of the West 

Bank? What is the country that occupies the West Bank?

A. Israel occupies parts of the West Bank and the 

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Palestinian Authority is in control of parts of the West Bank.

Q. And as the country that occupies the West Bank, and until 

2005 Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, it has occupied them since 1967. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And it has an obligation to provide for the people in the 

country that it occupies, does it not?

A. I believe so.

Q. And you would agree with me that it has failed to do so, 

hasn't it?

A. It has done better sometimes than others, but overall I 

think the Palestinian suffering speaks for itself. There has 

been a failure to provide for them.

Q. And that failure -- Part of that failure comes from 

Israel, doesn't it?

A. There is --

Q. That is accurate?

A. There is plenty of blame to go around, including Israel.

Q. And in fact, you wrote that as of 2003, 30 percent of the 

Palestinian children under the age of five suffer from chronic 

malnutrition. Correct?

A. That sounds right.

Q. And 28 percent of the children under the age of five 

suffer from acute malnutrition. Correct?

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A. Yeah. I don't have the book in front of me, but this 

sounds accurate.

Q. Will you take my word for it, or do you want me to read 

it to you. 

A. It sounds like you are reading it already. I will take 

your word for it.

Q. And in 2001 the infant mortality rate in Gaza was 

estimated to be 40 deaths per live births [sic] by the 

Palestinian Ministry of Health Officials. That is what you 

wrote. Okay?

A. Is that a question? 

Q. Yes. That is correct. Correct?

A. Again, that sounds like what I wrote.

Q. If you wrote it, you believed it be accurate. Correct?

A. A hundred percent. I just don't have the book in front 

of me to see that you are representing it properly.

Q. Would you like to look at it?

A. If you are going to ask me to verify quotations from the 

book, then yes, I would like to have -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Why don't you read this sentence, 

please, starting right there. 

A. "In 2001, palestinian Ministry of Health Officials 

estimated that the infant mortality rate in Gaza was 40 deaths 

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per 1,000 live births."

Q. Did I read that correctly?

A. Yes.

Q. And you believed that to be accurate and that is why you 

wrote it. Correct?

A. Right.

Q. And I believe you have testified previously that 

throughout the period of the occupation the Israeli government 

has consistently failed to provide essential services to the 

Palestinians. Correct?

A. I think that is true. I don't remember the exact quote.

Q. Now, you are aware that the United Nations created the 

organization we know as UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and 

Works Agency, in 1948. 

A. Correct.

Q. And that was to assist the refugees who left or were 

driven out of Israel when the country was created. Correct?

A. All the refugees, including internal refugees.

Q. And when the Arabs, Palestinians, left Israel, at the 

same time other people moved into Israel. Correct? In 1948? 

In other words, Jews came from other countries into Israel 

during that time period. Correct? And shortly after?

A. There has been immigration to Israel before and after.

Q. But Israel was created to be a homeland for the Jews, 

wasn't it?

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A. Correct.

Q. And in fact, to this day if someone can prove that one is 

Jewish, one can become a citizen of Israel. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. But that is not true of anyone else other than Jews, is 

it?

A. Others can become citizens, but they don't have that 

automatic, what is called Right of Return.

Q. Right of Return. Right. So anyone who is Jewish can 

automatically become a citizen. 

A. I believe so.

Q. But that automatic citizenship is limited to Jews. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. By the way, you worked at the Department of Treasury from 

2005 to 2007. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Have you requested permission from the Department of 

Treasury to testify here?

A. I am testifying only on my book, so I did not need to 

request permission to testify since I am not testifying on 

what I did in Treasury.

Q. You are not testifying about anything you did, so you 

don't have to ask permission as long as you don't testify 

about what you did during that year and a half. Is that 

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correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you now work at the Washington Institute for Near 

East Studies. Correct?

A. Near East Policy.

Q. Near East Policy. Sorry. Now, you are familiar with its 

history, are you not?

A. I am.

Q. And you are familiar with a man named Martin Indyk. Did 

I pronounce that correctly?

A. Ambassador Martin Indyk.

Q. He was an ambassador to Israel?

A. The U.S. ambassador to Israel and the U.S. Assistant 

Secretary of State.

Q. And before he founded the Washington Institute, he worked 

for something called the American-Israeli Public Affairs 

Committee. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, that self-describes itself as a pro-Israel lobbying 

committee. Correct?

A. That is what it is.

Q. That is what it is. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it is known as AIPAC. Right? Which is just -- 

A. That is its acronym.

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Q. That is its acronym. And in fact, it says right on its 

web page America's pro-Israel lobby. Right?

A. I don't frequent its web page, so I wouldn't know.

Q. But that wouldn't surprise you since that is what it is. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And before he founded the institute where you work, 

Ambassador Indyk had worked for AIPAC. Correct?

A. Correct. Although, let me correct you. He was not the 

founder. He was described as the founding director, the first 

director when it was founded.

Q. Okay. He was there when it started. 

A. Correct.

Q. That would be fair, wouldn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, didn't the Washington Institute actually begin 

as a room in AIPAC?

A. I don't know.

Q. Now, you also, I believe when you were in college, worked 

as an intern for the Consul General of Israel?

A. I did.

Q. That was one summer, wasn't it?

A. It was a few weeks one summer, yes.

Q. And can you tell us what is a consul general, the Consul 

General of Israel? What is that?

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A. Many countries will have an embassy in another country's 

capital, and they will have consulates in other cities, and 

the representative of that country will be the consul general. 

I interned one summer doing an analysis of media specifically, 

not an a pro- or anti-israel issue when I was in graduate 

school. Many of my fellow students were going to New York or 

to Washington for their summer internships, which are required 

for the school program. 

I was blessed to be married and already have a child at 

the time so didn't have the luxury of being able to travel, so 

this was what I was able to do in the Boston area.

Q. So you chose to work for the Consul General of Israel. 

Now, that person, do you recall -- Was it a man or woman?

A. I think it was a man.

Q. Do you remember his name?

A. I don't. To clarify, I didn't work there. It was an 

unpaid part time internship.

Q. So you volunteered for the Consul General of Israel. But 

the Consul General of Israel is a representative of the 

government of Israel. Correct?

A. It is.

Q. And you chose to work for that government that summer. 

Correct? For free?

A. Again, I didn't work for them. I did a research project 

there.

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Q. They didn't pay you, did they?

A. No.

Q. You were a volunteer. 

A. I wouldn't describe myself as a volunteer because it 

suggests I was doing work for them. It was a study for my 

school done at the consulate general. That is where I did the 

work.

Q. And you did the work at the office of the Consul General 

of Israel. 

A. That is right.

Q. That is a government office. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you also said you are on the board of the 

International Institute for -- the InterInterdisciplinary 

Center. Is that correct?

A. I am on many boards. One of them is -- 

Q. I am asking you about this board. Are you on the board 

of the InterInterdisciplinary Center?

A. I am getting there, if you will let me. 

The Interdisciplinary Center has many schools. It is a 

university. One of them is called ICT, which I think stands 

for the International Institute for Counterterrorism.

Q. Is that what you are on the board of?

A. Exactly.

Q. Okay. So you reason the board of the International 

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Institute for Counterterrorism. And that is located in 

Herzliya, which is a city in Israel, or -- 

A. A city in Israel. But again let me clarify. I am not on 

their board. I am on their international advisory board. 

They have an advisory board of international scholars, 

including myself, who serve in an advisory capacity.

Q. And you told us that you were in Israel last week. 

Correct?

A. Israel and the West Bank.

Q. Right. And in fact, one of the things you did was speak 

at a conference in Israel last week, did you not?

A. I did.

Q. And that was a conference sponsored by the International 

Institute for Counterterrorism. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And so you were there speaking on September 8th or 9th on 

a panel. Correct? 

A. Three panels, I think on the 9th and on the 11th.

Q. Now, you have also lectured for an organization called 

The Jewish Federation. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And that is a fundraising organization for AIPAC. 

Correct?

A. That would be news to me. The Jewish Federation is the 

organization that coordinates fundraising of the Jewish 

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community for everything from local services, Jewish and 

non-jewish, they do fundraising for Israel also, but I also 

lecture for Arab think tanks and others as well.

Q. I didn't ask you what else you lectured for. Just answer 

my questions. Okay? 

My question was did you lecture for an organization 

called the Jewish federation.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, could I just have a 

minute to get one more document? 

THE COURT: Sure.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Now, you have also spoken at this 

pro-Israel Jewish lobbying organization, AIPAC, have you not?

A. Often to an unhappy audience.

Q. My question was have you spoken at AIPAC. Is the answer 

yes or no?

A. I think it is pretty clear the answer is yes.

Q. And you have spoken at several of their conferences, 

haven't you?

A. I have, and often said things they didn't like.

Q. They paid for you, did they not, to come to their 

conferences?

A. I hope so.

Q. Did they or didn't they?

A. Yeah.

Q. In fact, you spoke at three are AIPAC conferences within 

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the last year. Correct?

A. That I don't know.

Q. Well, you spoke at a conference for the American-Israel 

Public Affairs Committee on March 11th, 2007. You are listed 

as having a -- speaking there. Does that ring a bell?

A. Do you have a place? I am afraid the dates don't -- I 

spoke at a conference they had in Washington, and I know I 

spoke at a conference they had in Kansas City. Those were 

probably both within the past year, but I don't remember the 

dates.

Q. You spoke at one on June 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, 2008, just 

this past spring. They don't actually say where they are. 

That is kind of mysterious. And according to their web page, 

you spoke also another time in 2007. So according to them, 

you spoke at a policy conference in March of 2007, at the 

AIPAC national summit in October of 2007, and at their policy 

conference in June 2008. Does that sound right?

A. Again, I don't know the dates. Their policy conference I 

have spoken at. I don't know if I have spoken at the one last 

year. I did this year.

Q. You did this year?

A. I did this year, yes. And I spoke at one other event.

Q. Just to be clear on your expertise, because we have 

talked about a lot of things here, you don't consider yourself 

an expert in Islam, do you?

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A. No.

Q. And you don't consider yourself an expert in the Quran 

either, do you?

A. No.

Q. And you don't speak Arabic?

A. No.

Q. So when you talk to people who don't speak English, you 

have to have a translator. Correct?

A. For those who don't speak English. Most do, so I 

actually don't need a translator that often, but otherwise I 

have a translator, yes.

Q. So the answer to my question was yes, when you speak to 

people who don't speak English you have to have a translator. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you find the translators sometimes through 

journalists. Correct?

A. Through journalists or the U.S. embassy.

Q. Right. But one of the ways -- Let me try it this way. 

One of the ways you find translators is through journalists. 

Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Translators often double as what is called a 

fixer, or someone who can arrange interviews. Correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. So the word fixer isn't -- That is not a bad thing, is 

it?

A. No.

Q. That is just a term that is used if someone who 

translates and also helps set up interviews, or helps you get 

around. 

A. It is just a term of the trade, but it does not apply to 

someone who translates. A fixer does not necessarily 

translate.

Q. It could be a journalist. 

A. No. A journalist would hire a fixer. A fixer is someone 

from the local area who can help you get meetings with people 

that you might not otherwise get a meeting.

Q. There is nothing bad about the name fixer. 

A. No.

Q. Now, you mentioned just a few minutes ago that the 

Palestinian Authority controlled some of Israel. I mean some 

of Palestine, and that Israel controlled some of the West 

Bank. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And I would like you to look at a map for me. You also 

mentioned, I believe, on direct yesterday that after Oslo -- 

And we will talk some more about Oslo, but that the West Bank 

was divided into three areas, Area A, Area B, and Area C. 

Correct?

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A. Correct.

MS. HOLLANDER: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. HOLLANDER: I move the admission of Defendant's 

1013.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, there is one issue on the 

map that we have an objection to. Ms. Hollander says she is 

not going to question Doctor Levitt -- Your Honor, we object 

to the map. There are items on the map that we believe are 

irrelevant.

THE COURT: Do you want to come up? 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. JONAS: This goes to the settlement issue the 

Government raised last week. There are settlements marked on 

this map that Ms. Hollander is going to question Doctor Levitt 

about. The Government doesn't think these settlements are 

relevant here.

MS. HOLLANDER: He talked about settlements in his 

direct examination. I am going to ask about settlements. 

MR. JONAS: He mentioned it briefly, but not in the 

context to which she is getting into. I think it was a 

passing comment. I think settlements it was in terms of 

Israeli extremists who are also against the Oslo Accords.

MS. HOLLANDER: He talked about settlements. I 

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mean, the whole point of the occupation is that after the 

occupation Israel moved its people in, and he said that the 

Palestinians perceived that this --

THE COURT: And you want to ask about?

MS. HOLLANDER: I am really using this map for Area 

A, B, and C, but I am going to ask him about settlements.

THE COURT: And what is your objection.

MR. JONAS: They are not relevant. It is not 

relevant to whether these Defendants gave money to Hamas or 

not.

THE COURT: You went into settlements some. I think 

you are entitled to go into it some. I don't know where you 

are going with it. I don't want you to spend a lot of time on 

it.

MS. HOLLANDER: I am not, Your Honor, but it is an 

issue having to do with both the intent and the hardship, 

because the settlements took land from the Palestinian people. 

He talked about that. And it also causes hardship because the 

settlements then have roads, people have to go around them, 

they can't get to where they are going, and they have 

checkpoints, that he also talked about, and it is part of the 

occupation. That is what it is all about, and there is now 

400,000 Jewish people living in Palestine so they can't have a 

two-state solution. So this is why one of the reasons people 

get so upset. 

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THE COURT: I think when you start going there that 

is irrelevant. That doesn't have anything to do with the 

needs. We are getting into the politics.

MS. HOLLANDER: I will get into the hardship thing.

THE COURT: That is where we need to limit it. And 

I think I am -- In listening to your opening statements, you 

are going too far, some of the opening statements by counsel. 

You keep saying this doesn't have anything to do with 

politics, but the way you are presenting it, it has a lot to 

do with politics. And this isn't about the politics. We told 

every juror that this wasn't about the conflict and we weren't 

going to get into that, but we are continually getting into 

that. Every one of your opening statements went into that.

MR. DRATEL: This witness has done that for a day 

and a half.

THE COURT: He is laying an overall framework for 

what is happening. 

MR. DRATEL: He is talking about two-state 

solutions.

MS. HOLLANDER: Talking about Oslo.

THE COURT: But we are not getting into whether that 

is viable or not because it doesn't matter. That has nothing 

to do with this case. It has nothing to do with this case, 

whether that is viable, whether they should support or not. 

You are getting into the jury nullification issue they 

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brought up. And Ms. Moreno brought up into the Jewish Israeli 

influence and American policy. That is what it goes to. We 

are not here to question that policy. I don't want to get 

into whether the peace accords are good. 

MR. DRATEL: But what it is relevant to is the state 

of mind of people's anger and frustration that is expressed 

about the opposition.

THE COURT: You can go there without getting into 

whether the two-state solution is viable or not.

MS. HOLLANDER: We are not going there.

THE COURT: That is what you were saying. You said 

you were going to show why it is not viable because of the 

number of people. That is what you said.

MS. HOLLANDER: I won't.

THE COURT: And there is plenty of reasons for them 

to be angry with the Israelis without getting into all the 

politics. Stay away from the politics.

MS. HOLLANDER: I will. I understand what you are 

saying. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am not knowing exactly 

where the line is.

THE COURT: I don't know either. But I asked Jim 

for a specific list and he still hasn't given me one yet.

MR. JONAS: I thought he had. 

THE COURT: No. He gave me something, but it 

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doesn't give anything specific that he objects to. 

MS. SHAPIRO: We have that.

THE COURT: He lists some general areas and then 

again acknowledges that it is going to be proper and 

appropriate to get into it some. So his solution was to 

approach the bench every time you were going to get into it. 

That is not where we left it. I had asked for something a 

little more specific than that and he hasn't given that to me 

yet. Go back and read that letter. He hasn't given it to me 

yet.

So I am still -- I am not sure where we are, frankly, on 

that issue, but I do think you are going too far. I know 

that. I can already tell from your opening statements. And 

so --

MS. HOLLANDER: I will be careful, or try to be. 

THE COURT: Well, I am addressing this to everyone. 

We are not going to make this case about the politics, like we 

told the jury that we weren't. So it is not going to be about 

that. I understand the need. I think even that is pushing it 

to some extent. 

Nobody is arguing that there is need. Nobody is arguing 

that there is need out there. And so all this other stuff, I 

am still wondering as to the relevance of that, frankly, 

because it just tends to inject the politics into it.

MS. HOLLANDER: He has made it look like -- I mean, 

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he has made it look like Hamas, you know, and we are not 

justifying anything Hamas did -- 

THE COURT: Hamas is designated a terrorist 

organization, so that is not disputed either. 

MS. HOLLANDER: But it makes it look like it is all 

on one side.

THE COURT: He didn't say that. He didn't say that. 

He blames a lot of it on Hamas, no question, but he didn't say 

that. He mentioned the extremist Jewish groups and then he 

mentioned the Israeli problems, but -- And that is fine just 

in passing, but I don't want to get too much into that because 

you start into questioning the policy, and we are not here to 

question the policy. That is there. They were designated. 

And the only issue is -- There is not a question, there is 

nobody debating a need. Nobody is debating that. Some kind 

of aid was imminent. It centers on intent. So all this to me 

is your way of trying to acknowledge -- Intent seems to be the 

contested issues. What else do you see as a contested issue? 

MS. CADEDDU: Designation.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I think relatedly there is a 

really hotly contested issue whether these zakat committees 

were not controlled by Hamas.

THE COURT: That goes to intent and knowledge, 

because that is ultimately the issue. The Government's theory 

is the money was getting to Hamas through these zakat 

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committees, and so whether they control or -- That is 

knowledge, and this intent whether they knew, that is the 

Government's theory.

MS. CADEDDU: There is also an issue whether they 

were actually Hamas. If they are not actually Hamas --

THE COURT: I understand. But they are not 

disputing that the zakat committees weren't designated. That 

is not even an issue in dispute. He just testified -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Yes, it is. 

THE COURT: You are taking the position that some of 

them were? 

MR. DRATEL: They are covered by a Hamas 

designation. 

THE COURT: But that is still -- Nobody is disputing 

that. It still gets to intent and knowledge. 

MR. CLINE: I think we will be able to work it out 

with you.

THE COURT: Maybe. We will see.

MS. HOLLANDER: Just to be clear, Your Honor, just 

so we are clear, a lot of my focus also goes to his bias. I 

am trying -- I am trying -- I am probing his motive to 

testify.

THE COURT: But we don't need to get into the 

politics.

MS. HOLLANDER: I don't think we do.

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THE COURT: But that is where you were heading. 

That is the only thing I am saying. We don't want to go 

there. That is the one -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: I will try not to.

THE COURT: And you all haven't helped, because I 

have asked for specifics and you haven't given me anything. 

And you agree with them that it is going to be necessary to 

get into this in some areas. So I am not sure where that 

leaves us. 

MR. DRATEL: But it is the context --

THE COURT: It is all context. It wasn't their 

context. That is part of the problem. When you start drawing 

lines --

MS. HOLLANDER: I am trying to limit it to where he 

was.

THE COURT: Let's limit it and see where we go. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

MS. HOLLANDER: I move admission of Defense 1013. 

THE COURT: It is admitted, yes. 

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Doctor Levitt, can you see this map?

A. Not great, but yes. We will make due.

Q. We will make it work?

A. We will make it work.

Q. You testified earlier that after Oslo the West 

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Bank -- And this is basically a map of the West Bank. Right?

A. The full gray with all of the other colors inside the 

lima bean shape, that is the West Bank.

Q. That is the West Bank. Okay. I have to do this and be 

at the -- Area A is the area that is supposedly in full 

Palestinian control. Correct? Isn't that -- You said that 

the major cities were in area A. Correct?

A. Right.

Q. Isn't that what you said?

A. Correct. Although we were talking about a specific time.

Q. We are talking about here, it has a date at the top, 

1995. Okay? So at that time those were the areas that the 

Palestinian Authority supposedly had control over the Area A, 

those cities, Jericho, a small part of Jerusalem. Correct?

A. I can't read anything here. I am sorry.

Q. You know where Jericho is over near the Jordan River. 

Right?

A. Right. Jericho is this red -- That is right. Thank you.

Q. Where my hand is?

A. There you go. And a variety of cities up and down the 

kind of left hand side all in red.

Q. Where my hand is now is Nablus?

A. That is Nablus.

Q. And up at the top is part of Jenin. 

A. It is a little bit past what we can see on the screen. 

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That probably Tulkarm and then Qalqilya below it.

Q. And then Ramallah?

A. Ramallah in the middle.

Q. And Bethlehem?

A. Bethlehem south of Jerusalem, and then part of Hebron.

Q. Part of Hebron. And that was what was considered the 

part that the Palestinian Authority was to control with 

Palestinian police and Palestinian services. Correct?

A. It was more than this, actually. This map is from 1995 

and only depicts the cities. 

Q. Right. I am talking about 1995 right after Oslo. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And Area B were Palestinian villages. Correct? 

But they were not under full Palestinian control. Correct?

A. Correct. In other words, A, B, and C -- The distinction 

really wasn't cities, villages, or settlement. It was how 

much control the Palestinian Authority had.

Q. Correct. They had the most control over Area A. 

A. Exactly.

Q. They had a little, some control over Area B. Correct?

A. Not security control, but they would have administrative 

control run daily --

Q. But no security control. 

A. Correct.

Q. And Area C, which is the vast part of this map, was under 

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Israeli control. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact, isn't it true that even though the 

Palestinian Authority had some control over these few spots in 

Area A, the Israeli military could come into those areas, too, 

if it chose to, could it not? And it did. Correct?

A. Again, we are going to need to talk about -- Are we 

talking just 1995? Because things changed over time.

Q. I understand. 

A. As did this map. In 1995 is the question? 

Q. Well, let's talk about later the Israeli army did go into 

areas on which this map are called Area A. Correct?

A. Correct. Later Area A is expanded, this map changed, and 

after a series of violence and attacks the Israelis went back 

in and re-took those areas.

Q. Right. So in fact it would be fair to say that Israel 

had the ability to go back into the entire West Bank 

throughout, and did at various times. Correct? That is what 

it did. Correct?

A. Israel had the military capability to do things in the 

area controlled at any time.

Q. That is right. That is the answer to my question. Thank 

you. 

A. Okay.

Q. Now, there are -- You talked a lot over the last day or 

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two about Hamas, and I want to ask you some other questions so 

that we have a perspective about what was going on. There are 

Jewish people in and out of Israel who believe that the entire 

area, Israel and the West Bank, and Gaza probably, should all 

be part of the final Israel. Correct?

A. There are people who believe that. There are also --

Q. That is my question.

A. It is a loaded question, but let's move on.

Q. And there are some Jewish people who believe actually 

that God gave this land to the Jews. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And there are even some Jews who believe that they have a 

religious requirement to make sure that they maintain -- that 

Israel maintains this whole area. Correct?

A. We are talking about an extreme minority that is nowhere 

near as active as Hamas, but yes, there are people.

Q. We all know what it is you want to say here, Doctor 

Levitt, but it would be helpful if you would just answer my 

questions for now. Okay? 

There are -- Many of these people live in the 

settlements. Correct? People that believe that Israel should 

maintain the whole area. Correct?

A. There are people who live in the settlements who believe 

this way.

Q. Now, you know who Benjamin Netanyahu is, don't you?

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A. We mentioned him earlier. Yes.

Q. In fact, he was just on this program with you last week, 

wasn't he? He was a keynote speaker. 

A. I wasn't there. I don't know. I arrived after the 

keynote session.

MS. HOLLANDER: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Doctor Levitt, I took this off the 

web so you can tell me if this is accurate. 

A. Yes, this is accurate. You have the leader of the 

opposition and the head of the European Union's 

counterterrorism coordinator as the keynote speakers.

Q. So I am correct that Benjamin Netanyahu was one of the 

keynote speakers at this seminar that you spoke at last week 

in Israel. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And he is the former prime minister of Israel. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. He actually won -- became prime minister in about 1996. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you talked about him earlier in his relationship to 

the Oslo -- to Oslo. You talked about him earlier today. 

Correct?

A. We talked about him earlier.

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Q. Now, when he was elected, he actually won the popular 

vote, so a majority of the people in Israel voted for him, 

didn't they?

A. Yes.

Q. And he opposed the Oslo Accords, didn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. And he was one of the people -- He has a -- His political 

party -- They don't have like republicans and democrats. They 

have other names for their parties. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And one of the names is the Likud party?

A. That is right.

Q. And that is Netanyahu's political party. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And the former Prime Minister Sharon was originally 

Likud. Correct?

A. Originally, yes.

Q. And then he created another party. 

Okay. The Likud party also has, like all political 

parties, has a charter, doesn't it.

A. I presume, yeah.

Q. And the Likud charter says, "The Jordan valley and the 

territories that dominate it shall be under Israeli 

sovereignty. The Jordan River will be the permanent eastern 

border of the state of Israel." That is the Likud charter, 

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isn't it?

MR. JONAS: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Were you aware of the fact that 

Benjamin Netanyahu and his party take the position, took the 

position during Oslo that Israel shouldn't give up any land to 

the Palestinians? Correct?

A. No. It is much more complicated than that, because even 

under Netanyahu Israel gave up some land, I argued at the time 

not enough, in Hebron, for example.

Q. But Netanyahu, when he ran for election, ran on a 

campaign promise, which ultimately he couldn't keep, that he 

wouldn't give up any land, didn't he?

A. I don't remember his campaign, but he ultimately did.

Q. Now, throughout this land -- You said on direct that the 

Palestinians perceive -- You talked about the Zionists as 

people who -- How did you define a Zionists? I don't want to 

get this wrong. 

A. I don't remember exactly what I said, but Zionism is the 

ideology behind the creation of a Jewish homeland.

Q. And you stated that the Palestinians, some Palestinians 

believe that the Zionists stripped them of their land. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact, there are many Jewish people now living in 

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the West Bank. Isn't that correct?

A. That is true.

Q. Hundreds of thousands. Correct?

A. I think it is 250,000.

Q. And these people live in settlements that are dotted 

throughout the West Bank. Correct?

A. In primary settlement -- they call them settlement 

blocks, so it is not quite throughout the whole area. And 

many of the people who have come in the last several years are 

in areas very close to what they call the green line that 

separates the West Bank from Israel.

Q. Now, let me show you a map, because this might help.

MS. HOLLANDER: I move the admission of Defendant's 

910. 

THE COURT: No objection counsel? 

MR. JONAS: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) I would just like you to explain 

Doctor Levitt, a few things, because maybe it is not clear. 

A. It is difficult to hear you. I am sorry.

Q. Okay. I will just imagine what the map looks like. 

The Jordan River, I am going to go and point out where 

the Jordan River is. That is right here. Correct? 

A. Correct; right along the dotted line, borderline.

Q. And this kidney shaped area is the West Bank. Correct?

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A. That is right.

Q. And the area we were just talking about with the previous 

map, No. 1013, was that kidney shaped area. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. Now, when you talk about the green line, which is 

what prompted this, you mean the line more or less where my 

finger is now. Is that correct?

A. Correct. It is not actually a border, but the border of 

demarcation between the West Bank and Israel proper.

Q. Right. Because in fact Israel, although it is a country, 

doesn't have a firm border there, does it?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. 

A. In like a legal sense.

Q. Like a legal sense. Right.

A. Because the territories are still disputed.

Q. Right. And when we are talking about what I was just 

talking about a minute ago, that there are some people, some 

Jewish people who believe that God gave them the whole area, 

they mean all the way to here. Correct?

A. They mean the entirety of this area from top to bottom, 

like Hamas would believe top to bottom.

Q. Right. Now, you mentioned that the settlements were 

mostly around the green line. I would like to just show you 

one more map and then we are going -- 

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A. The green line and key blocks.

Q. Right. I am going to show you one more map and then we 

are going to move on to another subject.

MS. HOLLANDER: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) I just want to ask you some questions 

about that map.

A. Sure.

Q. Okay. 

A. Uh-huh.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I move the admission of 

Defendant's 1110. 

THE COURT: Counsel?

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we object for the reasons 

stated in sidebar. 

THE COURT: Let me take a look at it. I don't have 

it. 

I will overrule the objection, and Defendant's exhibit 

1110 is admitted. 

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Now, this particular map, just so we 

get oriented, is dated 2001, and it has on it all these little 

pyramid looking things or settlements. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And so when we talk, just so the jury has an 

understanding, we are talking about settlements at least as to 

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2001. We are not talking about what there is now. But as to 

2001, that is a representation of settlements around the West 

Bank. Correct?

A. It is a somewhat misleading one because it depicts all 

settlements in the same manner, those little triangles. Some 

are quite large and populated. Most that are farther into the 

West Bank are very, very small. So there are settlements, 

yes. These are all settlements. But if you are talking about 

where the settler population is, it is, as I explained, in key 

blocks of larger settlements and along the green line.

Q. Right. Okay. But there are actually some settlements 

all the way out to near the Jordan River. 

A. That is right.

Q. Now, these large settlements -- In fact, there is a very 

large settlement right near Jerusalem. Correct?

A. What are you referring to? 

Q. There is a very large settlement near Jerusalem. That is 

one of the areas where the large settlements are near 

Jerusalem. 

A. Correct.

Q. And -- You were talking about settlement blocks. That is 

where one of the big settlement blocks is. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And the people who live in the settlements are Jewish 

people. Correct?

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A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And they have -- They are citizens of Israel. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. But instead of living in Israel proper, they live in the 

West Bank. And up until 2005 there were also settlements in 

Gaza. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And there are roads that connect these settlements. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Those are called bypass roads. Correct?

A. There are many roads. Those roads that are meant only to 

connect the settlements and bypass Palestinian villages are 

referred to as the bypass roads.

Q. And those go from the settlements directly to Tel Aviv. 

A. Not to Tel Aviv, but right into Israel.

Q. Right. I think there is one from Jericho to Tel Aviv, 

but I could be wrong. 

A. You are.

Q. Am I wrong?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And in order to drive on those roads, you can't 

just get on. They have big fences to make sure that only the 

people who are supposed to be on them are on them. Correct?

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A. There are roads that have fences primarily to prevent 

attacks that occurred against those roads. I have been on 

some of those roads, and they are called bypass roads, but 

there is no preventing people from getting on them. And I 

have passed Palestinian drivers with Palestinian plates on 

those roads. 

My understanding is there are times when the Israeli 

authorities will not allow Palestinian license plate cars on 

the roads for security reasons, but every time I have been on 

the bypass roads, and it hasn't been too often, I have seen 

both Israeli and Palestinian cars.

Q. So Palestinians have different license plates than 

Israelis. Correct?

A. Because they are under the Palestinian Authority.

Q. Right. And they have different license plates, and that 

is how they have different license plates. 

A. Correct. Except for the Palestinians, for example, who 

live in east Jerusalem, and they have Israeli license plates.

Q. Because it is part of Israel. 

A. It is disputed as well. It is actually part of the West 

Bank.

Q. It depends on who you talk to which it is part of. 

Right? 

A. Well, you are asking me. 

Q. And you mentioned earlier a checkpoint that your driver 

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managed to get around earlier. There are checkpoints on and 

off throughout the West Bank at various different times. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Different times -- Sometimes there are more and sometimes 

there is fewer, but there are always some checkpoints. 

Correct?

A. Correct. Especially at cities.

Q. Right. 

A. Which is what I was referring to.

Q. And in fact, some of these settlers have committed some 

pretty grave acts of terrorism against Palestinians, have they 

not?

A. They have.

Q. They have burned Palestinian olive groves. Are you aware 

of that?

A. Yeah. I don't know if that would be an act of terrorism, 

but it is certainly an act of illegal violence.

Q. But there have actually been killing, deaths?

A. There have been.

Q. And you actually wrote about this in your Ph.D. 

dissertation that you just turned into a new book. Correct?

A. I did.

Q. And that involved an American doctor, an American doctor 

who moved to a settlement named Doctor Goldstein. Correct?

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A. That is right.

Q. And Doctor Goldstein lived in one of the settlements on 

the West Bank in Hebron. Correct? Or near Hebron?

A. Near Hebron, yes.

Q. And one day he walked into a mosque while people were 

praying and just murdered 29 people, men who were praying. 

Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, he was one of those people who thought they had no 

right to be there, didn't he?

A. Apparently.

Q. And so he was someone who was opposed to the Oslo Accord. 

Correct?

A. I would assume so. I mean, he was a terrorist. Let's 

call him what he was.

Q. But he would have -- If you had sat him down and asked 

him, he would have opposed Israel signing the Oslo Accord, 

wouldn't he, because it gave away land?

A. I imagine, but I never spoke to the man, so -- 

Q. You are familiar with Bernard Lewis also, are you not?

A. I am.

Q. And you consider him an expert on the Middle East, don't 

you?

A. I do.

Q. So you would agree with him when he says that on the 

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Israeli side there were some that thought Oslo was betrayal, 

throwing away victory, and wantonly abandoning the ancient 

heritage of Jews. 

A. Yes.

Q. Now, and you said there were Palestinians who opposed 

Oslo.

A. Yes.

Q. Who were not associated with Hamas. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And one of them you mentioned was Edward Said?

A. Correct.

Q. Edward Said was a Palestinian-American who is now dead 

but who taught at Columbia University. Correct?

A. That is correct; a journalism professor.

Q. And he also wrote a great deal about Palestine, didn't 

he?

A. He did.

Q. And he was Christian. Correct?

A. I think so.

Q. His name was Edward. That is a pretty good clue. 

A. He was also American.

Q. He was American. But you believe that he was Christian. 

Correct?

A. Actually I don't know, but I will take your word for it.

Q. And he was opposed to Oslo. 

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A. He was, through peaceful means.

Q. You are aware that Professor Said was photographed in 

October 19th of 2000 actually throwing a rock toward an 

Israeli guard house. You are aware of that. 

A. There is a well-documented incident where he visited 

Lebanon and called the media and symbolically threw a rock 

over the fence. Some people said it was at an Israeli guard 

house. Some people said there was not an Israeli around. 

That is the most violent that that man -- That one rock is the 

most violent that man ever got.

Q. It was a symbolic act. 

A. It was no act of suicide bombing.

Q. It was a symbolic act of support for the Intifada. 

Correct?

A. That is not what I said. That is your words. I think it 

was an act of symbolism, opposing the peace process that he 

long supported in writing. I am sorry. That he long opposed 

in writing.

Q. But Professor Said was not a Muslim fundamentalist by any 

stretch of the imagination, was he?

A. No.

Q. Now, you also showed the jury on your chart over here a 

man named Jamil Hamami, did you not?

A. I did.

Q. And you talked a little bit about Jamil Hamami coming to 

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speak in the United States. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. When you wrote your book, you mentioned Jamil Hamami 

three or four times in your book, don't you?

A. I mentioned him. I don't know how many times.

Q. But you don't say anything about his -- Now, the book was 

published in 2006, was it not?

A. That is right.

Q. You don't say anything in your book about Jamil Hamami 

being invited to the United States, do you?

A. I was not aware of it at the time.

Q. You were not aware of it. In fact, you weren't aware of 

it until about a year ago. Isn't that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And you were surprised to find out he had come to the 

United States, weren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. You mentioned that he was brought by a quasi government 

organization -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I would like to 

introduce Defendant's Exhibit No. 87. I move the admission of 

Defendant's Exhibit No. 87. 

THE COURT: Counsel?

MR. JONAS: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

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Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) I am again going to try to talk to 

you and put this where the jury can see it. It is a little 

awkward here. 

A. We will make it work.

Q. But we will make it work. And I am not going to ask you 

to read all of this, but just a part of it. This is a 

document with several pages. Can you -- 

A. Can you enlarge it? I can't read it as it is. I am 

sorry.

Q. I may have a better version of this. 

MR. HOLLANDER: I may have to just approach the 

witness, Your Honor. I don't think he can read it. 

Q. (BY MR. HOLLANDER) Can you read it now?

A. I can try.

Q. I am not going to ask you to read very much. Can you see 

where the document came from? It says the United States 

Information Service. I will help you. Do you see that at the 

top?

A. Yes; american Consulate General in Jerusalem.

Q. Yes. Now, the American Consulate General in 

Jerusalem--you talked about the Consul General from 

Israel--this is the United States representative in Jerusalem. 

A. Yes.

Q. So this letter is coming from the office of the United 

States representative in Jerusalem. Correct?

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A. Sort of. It is coming from the United States Information 

Service, and they had an office in the American Consulate in 

Jerusalem. This is a different consulate. All of the 

consulates are part of an embassy and report back to an 

embassy. This consulate does not. It acts as its own embassy 

and is the U.S. representation to the Palestinians.

Q. That is right. And actually the American Consulate -- 

this is the only place in the world where this is true, is it 

not, that you know of?

A. I believe it is the only one. Correct.

Q. And that is because Jerusalem is contested. 

A. No, it is because --

Q. We have an ambassador in Tel Aviv. Correct?

A. Correct. And two consulates in Jerusalem; one on the 

Jewish side and one in the Palestinian side. The Palestinian 

side is the much larger one. And because the United States 

gives great priority to the Palestinian issue, it has the de 

facto embassy to the Palestinians.

Q. So the Consul General in Jerusalem actually reports 

directly to Washington instead of to the ambassador. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. That is the part that is different than in other parts of 

the world. 

A. That is correct. So the U.S. Information Service had an 

office there.

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Q. And this is a letter to Sheikh Jamil Hamami. Is that 

right?

A. That is right.

Q. It says, "On behalf of the United States Information 

Agency, it is my pleasure to inform you you have been selected 

to participate in the international visitor's program entitled 

"Religion in America" scheduled to take place," and then they 

have the dates, et cetera. Correct?

A. There are two slight differences in the text I have here, 

but that is the general -- 

Q. I think I have a slightly different version I am reading 

from is the problem. Actually what happened is the one you 

have -- the one I had on the screen was October, and then the 

program got put off and I was reading from the February one, 

which was almost the same, but it is the same program. 

A. The gist is the same.

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take the afternoon 

recess. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, since Doctor Levitt is 

on cross, we would just ask that he not discuss his testimony 

with the Government while he is in the middle of cross 

examination.

THE COURT: All right. If you would do that, Doctor 

Levitt. 

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Be back at five after.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Before we begin, members of the jury, 

before I forget, tomorrow we will be working until 1:00. We 

will work straight through the noon hour. One of our former 

judges of this court passed away Sunday, so we have his 

service tomorrow afternoon that I have to go to, so we will 

start working at 9:00 in the morning and work until 1:00, and 

then you will be through for the day tomorrow, and come back 

and work on Thursday. 

Ms. Hollander?

MS. HOLLANDER: We will have the morning break, 

though.

THE COURT: We will have the morning break, but it 

is going to be a long time before we get to the lunch break.

MS. HOLLANDER: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) I have a couple more of these, part 

of Defendant Exhibit No. 87. This one is an announcement 

inviting Sheikh Hamami to New York. Correct? 

A. Yes. "It is a pleasure to welcome you to New York." 

That much I can make out.

Q. And then I am going to show you some of the places that 

he went when he was in New York. You might not be able to 

read these, but one of them is the Catholic Archdiocese and 

the Palestinian Government Office and an Islamic center. Do 

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you see that?

A. Yeah, in part.

Q. Then he went to Union Theological Seminary. Do you see 

that at the bottom?

A. Yes.

Q. And the next day he went to the American-Jewish 

Commission or American-Jewish Committee?

A. It is hard to read here, one of the two.

Q. The American-Jewish Committee. Just to be clear, when 

you wrote your book you didn't know about any of this, did 

you?

A. No.

Q. Now, this Government's exhibit, Demonstrative 12, this 

Hamas pyramid, I just wanted to be clear. That is something 

you created. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. That is not something Hamas created. 

A. No.

Q. And you are the one who put, you or you had them put the 

Hamas logo in the middle of it to identify it. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. Now, you are familiar with the Arab television 

station Al Jazeera?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is that?

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A. It is an Arab satellite television, broadcasts out of the 

Gulf, out of Qatar. They have offices throughout the world, 

including here. I have been in Al Jazeera.

Q. But the Israeli government has accused it of fomenting 

terrorism because of its broadcast. Correct. That is 

correct. Are you aware of that?

A. I don't know that. I know Israeli officials are on Al 

Jazeera all the time also.

Q. But you don't have any problem appearing on Al Jazeera. 

I assume you don't agree with everything said on Al Jazeera. 

Correct?

A. I go on Fox News and don't agree with everything they say 

either. So, yes, I go on and I try to give fair analysis.

Q. You have previously been asked about your willingness to 

appear on Al Jazeera, and your response was that it was not 

designated. That is still true. Correct?

A. No, Al Jazeera is not designated.

Q. Now, you said on direct examination that you were asked 

about the Islamic University of Gaza. Do you recall?

A. No.

Q. On direct examination Mr. Jonas asked you about the 

Islamic University of Gaza, and you said it was started by 

Hamas leaders. 

A. I don't think there was a direct question on the Islamic 

University of Gaza. I think I mentioned it in response to a 

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question he had, though.

Q. And you said it was started by Hamas leaders. 

A. It was founded in part by Hamas leaders, yes.

Q. So I take it you are not aware that the American 

government research on the ground in Gaza found that it was 

founded in 1978 by a board approved by Chairman Yasser Arafat 

with permission from the Israeli government. You weren't 

aware of that, were you?

A. I am aware that there has been debate within the U.S. 

government as to how it was funded, and that what you just 

read was researched by some. My understanding of that debate 

is that it concluded very much otherwise.

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I would like to 

introduce Defendant's Exhibit No. 1094. 

THE COURT: Counsel?

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we object. 

THE COURT: Let me take a look at it.

(Discussion at the bench, out of the hearing of the 

reporter.)

THE COURT: On the record. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I wasn't going to ask 

him anymore questions if you want to take your time to read 

it, but I am happy to redact it where it came from and what I 

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read to him.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cline? 

MR. CLINE: No.

THE COURT: You just wanted to get in on it? 

MR. CLINE: I was going to wander up and inspect.

THE COURT: I don't have to read it now. It is too 

long for me to read and give a you ruling right now, so I am 

withholding a ruling. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) You have also talked about the fact 

on direct examination about Israel demolished homes, homes 

that Israel demolished in Ramallah. Do you recall talking 

about that?

A. Correct. In the context of the smuggling tunnels, I was 

asked about houses where the tunnels came out and were 

destroyed.

Q. Right. And you know that Israel has demolished many, 

many homes throughout the West Bank and Gaza. You are aware 

of that, are you not? 

A. I am aware it has demolished homes like these. I don't 

know that it is many or how many.

Q. Well, you know that Israel demolishes homes for 

primarily, approximately 90 percent, when people don't have 

proper permits. 

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A. I don't know that.

Q. You haven't researched why Israel demolishes homes or 

anything about it. Is that what you are saying?

A. Correct. Other than in the context of terrorist attacks.

Q. Well then, you know that Israel sometimes demolishes 

homes of families of people that it suspects of terrorism. 

You know that, don't you?

A. Of suicide bombers. There is no suspicion there, but 

yes.

Q. You know that it is also demolished homes of other 

families of people that it has imprisoned. You know that, 

too, don't you?

A. I don't, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Q. And you also mentioned -- You mentioned that Sheikh 

Yassin -- You recall Sheikh Yassin on your chart there. You 

said he was assassinated. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. In fact, he was assassinated by Israel. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And that was as he was coming out of a mosque after 

morning prayers. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. He was in a wheelchair. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And he was assassinated by an Israeli helicopter that 

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fired hellfire missiles at him. Correct?

A. I know it was a missile. I don't know the other details.

Q. And more than a dozen people were injured, including two 

of his sons. You knew that, too, didn't you?

A. I know that people were injured, including his sons. I 

don't know how many.

Q. And some other innocent bystanders were killed. You know 

that, too, don't you?

A. No.

Q. Are you a -- You also mentioned that Doctor Abdel Aziz 

al-Rantisi was assassinated. 

A. That is correct.

Q. He was also assassinated by Israel by a rocket from a 

helicopter. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact, when he was assassinated -- He didn't get a 

trial or anything before he was assassinated, did he?

A. No.

Q. And one of his sons was killed in that attack. Correct?

A. I don't know.

Q. You are aware that a mother and a five-year-old child 

were also killed. Correct?

A. Not aware.

Q. But are you aware of the fact that innocent people were 

killed when he was assassinated?

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A. No, I don't know the specifics offhand of that attack, 

but sometimes innocent bystanders are killed in these attacks.

Q. And are you aware of the fact that the British Foreign 

Minister Jack Straw condemned this attack and said that the 

British government has made it repeatedly clear that so-called 

targeted assassinations -- 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I object to this question.

THE COURT: You are already reading the statement, 

and you have got an objection. What is your objection?

MR. JONAS: Relevance, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection on 

relevance and hearsay.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Are you aware of the fact that 

international agencies condemned targeted assassinations?

MR. JONAS: Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Counsel, we are getting too much into 

the politics we discussed that we weren't getting into. 

Sustained.

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) I just want to go back then, in 

conclusion, and ask you a few questions that I didn't ask you 

about Baruch Goldstein who you wrote about in your other book 

who murdered the Palestinians that were praying, and I want to 

be clear. The men who he murdered, there is no reason to 

believe they were Hamas people, is there?

A. None at all.

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Q. In other words, this was just an indiscriminate attack. 

A. Premeditated murder.

Q. There is no reason to believe those people who were 

praying were terrorists of any sort. Correct?

A. They were innocents.

Q. They were innocent. And so you would expect that they 

left behind families. Correct?

A. I would.

Q. Widows and orphans?

A. Yes.

Q. And you know or it wouldn't surprise you to know that the 

men who were gunned down were considered martyrs by their 

community. 

A. No. The term martyr can refer to someone who is killed. 

It is also used by Hamas to refer to someone who kills one's 

self in the process of killing others, but it doesn't only 

refer to that.

Q. I didn't ask you about that, did I? Do you remember my 

question?

A. You asked me to explain martyr.

Q. I didn't ask you to explain martyr. Do you remember my 

question?

A. Why don't you say it again.

Q. It wouldn't surprise you to learn that these men who were 

gunned down by the Jewish terrorist were considered martyrs, 

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would it?

A. Considered by some, no, it would not.

Q. By Muslims in Palestine?

A. By some Muslims, yes.

Q. They would be considered martyrs?

A. Yes.

Q. You do know, don't you, that one of the counts of this 

indictment involves the funds that the Holy Land Foundation 

provided for their widows and orphans. You are aware of that, 

aren't you?

A. Yes.

MS. HOLLANDER: Nothing further. I will pass the 

witness. 

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall? 

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Westfall: 

Q. Hello, Doctor Levitt. 

A. Good afternoon.

Q. I represent Abdul Odeh, and I am Greg Westfall.

You made a comment yesterday, I think it was while we 

were going through the Hamas charter, something to the effect 

that people with a normal world view would want to go to work 

and raise their families. Do you remember saying that?

A. I don't remember the exact statement or whether I said 

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normal, but yes, average people want to live their lives, go 

to work, raise their families.

Q. Would you agree with me, though, that when we are talking 

about a person's world view, that is really dependent upon 

their experiences?

A. We are all shaped by our experiences, but there are 

certain common values we share. We should all be against 

murder. We should all want the best for our children.

Q. True. True. And we have no doubt, do we, that the 

Palestinians want what is best for their children.

A. I think Palestinians want what is best for their 

children, and I think there are some extremists on the 

Palestinian and Israeli side, as we talked about, who are the 

exception.

Q. So if we talk about Palestinians just for a moment, 

though, would you agree with me that this extreme economic 

hardship that you write about in your book, that would be the 

kind of thing that could shape a person's world view. 

A. World view generally, certainly. To the point of this 

type of violence, it should not, and in most cases does not.

Q. Are unemployment, if your parents are unemployed, along 

with say a third of the rest of the people in your community, 

that sort of incredible level of unemployment, if you are a 

child that would be the kind of thing, if your parents can't 

work and don't work, that would affect your world view?

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A. Yes.

Q. Certainly, if you are chronically malnourished as a 

child, that would affect your world view. 

A. Yes.

Q. And I suppose you know there are other things that could 

affect your world view, like if you grow up in a place where 

sewage runs through the street instead of having underground 

sewers, that would be the kind of thing that would affect your 

world view. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am going to object. We 

are getting into an area beyond Doctor Levitt's expertise. It 

has nothing to do with Hamas, their effective world view. 

THE COURT: Sustained. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Well, we watched this videotape with 

you this morning, and we saw the expressions of anger and such 

from children in that video. True?

A. Anger and support for violence. The tape spoke for 

itself.

Q. And you mentioned that your child has school plays also.

A. They do.

Q. And of course, you know, I would imagine they are nothing 

like that. 

A. No.

Q. Would you agree with me that the conditions in Palestine 

are far different than what you grew up in?

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A. The conditions in Palestine have nothing to do with 

whether or not people raise their children to promote and 

support and idolize violence. Most Palestinians, 

unfortunately, are living in these conditions. Most 

Palestinians abhor violence.

Q. The fact that -- I guess there is probably, I don't know, 

thousands of Palestinians that have been put in detention with 

no charges ever filed, isn't there?

A. I don't know what the numbers are.

Q. But what I am saying is true. We can quibble about the 

number, but Palestinians are put in detention without charges 

ever being filed. 

A. Sometimes Palestinians are detained, either by 

Palestinian or Israeli authorities; and unlike in our country, 

in those countries they have what is called administrative 

detention and they are able to hold people without charge.

Q. And there has been a lot of Palestinians that have been 

detained by the IDF without charge. Isn't that true?

A. There have been. Again, I don't know how many or how 

much. It is not intended to quibble with you. You are just 

asking a question a little too generally for me to answer 

straight.

Q. Well, I guess you have said in your book that there is a 

tremendous need in Palestine; the Palestinian people have a 

tremendous need.

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A. They do.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, may I use this? And I am 

about to just do some numbers with him. Can I just do this 

and write on them as we go through this? 

THE COURT: Yes, sir. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Now, Doctor Levitt, I want to talk a 

little bit about the amount of money that Hamas spends on 

their Dawa. Okay?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And you have written about this in your book as well?

A. I have.

Q. Let me ask you, in your research, in your research have 

you ever broken it down by year that in 1994 the Dawa was this 

amount, in 1995 the Dawa was this amount?

A. I have never been able to because I have never been able 

to get my hands on sufficient data. So what I did in the book 

was -- 

Q. So first of all, though, the answer I guess to my 

question is no?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Then please go ahead and tell me what you did in 

your book. 

A. Sorry for interrupting you. 

What I did in the book in one section to try and give a 

sense and try to get a sense of the amount of money being sent 

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on this Dawa, this social welfare, was to take some of the 

documents, especially Palestinian documents that had been 

documents seized from Hamas offices by Palestinian and Israeli 

authorities that have been publicized, and extrapolate from 

them. And I make clear in the book this is an academic 

extrapolation. These are not hard numbers. And there is a 

range, and I provide the range. And it is basically a kind 

of, "This is useful. Great. Take it or leave it. This is 

what I was able to get." But I don't pretend to know that 

this is it.

Q. Let's have a look at what you said in your book. You 

said in your book, "The amount of money Hamas actually spends 

on social welfare is relatively small compared to U.N. and 

other international aid. 

"According to Israeli intelligence" --

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I object to the book being 

put on the screen and Mr. Westfall just reading from it. The 

book is not in evidence. 

THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) What do you say?

A. I am sorry. Do you want me to read this or are you 

asking me my opinion? 

Q. You can read it or refresh your recollection on it. Look 

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at it and put yourself in a position where I can then ask you 

some questions, because I know you don't have a copy of your 

book. 

A. I think the best thing, if you have questions why don't 

you ask me while I have a copy in front of me and I can best 

answer it. It is page 237 if you need to get another copy. I 

appreciate that.

Q. It looks as though you based your numbers based upon two 

things. One was Israeli intelligence estimates. Correct?

A. On this paragraph, yes. There is another section of the 

book I was referring to a moment ago.

Q. All right. And the other is U.S. estimates. Correct?

A. Of Hamas' overall annual budget. This is -- And then the 

estimate of how much percentage-wise is thought to go to 

social welfare versus military activity. And then applied 

that percentage estimate to the range of numbers that Israeli 

and U.S. officials estimate is the Hamas budget.

Q. By this calculus, Hamas spends between $56 million and 

$76.5 million annually on its political and social welfare 

activities. Is that a correct statement?

A. That is a precise quote.

Q. So is it a correct statement?

A. Yes.

Q. So by Israeli intelligence numbers -- 

A. Again, let's be clear -- 

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Q. I am not going to put you on a polygraph or something 

about this book. I just -- I am trying to just get some 

numbers here that you wrote.

A. Okay.

Q. Is that fair?

A. It is not a question of the polygraph. I want to make 

sure we are presenting to there jury what is Israeli and 

otherwise. Israeli estimate is that the Hamas overall budget 

is $70 million to $90 million, and that 80 to 85 percent goes 

to social welfare activities.

Q. Gotcha.

A. Okay.

Q. And that 80 to 85 percent is how you came to the $56 

million to $76.5 million.

A. Correct.

Q. And that is U.S. dollars?

A. Yes. It is a good thing your handwriting is better than 

mine.

Q. I am sure it is not much. 

And then the U.S. estimate, make sure I get it right, 

translates to $42.5 million to $62.5 million in annual social 

welfare expenditures. 

A. Correct.

Q. So that is U.S. numbers. And now, you also said that the 

total aid appears to be in the neighborhood of $1.3 billion, 

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it says, according to the World Food Program?

A. "According to the World Food Program," which is an 

international organization tied to the U.N. "International 

Development Assistance"--and this is a quote from their 

report--"for Palestinians totals $1.3 billion per year through 

the Palestinian Authority, the United Nations, and NGOs."

Q. So it would be fair to say everywhere else $1.3 billion?

A. According to this program, yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) We are finished with that, so I will 

get it.

I want to talk just a little bit about the MFA, the 

Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 

A. Whose? 

Q. The Israeli. 

A. Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs? 

Q. Right.

A. Sure.

Q. That is an organ of their government, I guess. 

A. It is their foreign ministry, their state department.

Q. Okay. And they have a website that actually has 

documents on it. 

A. Yes.

Q. And there are documents on it that you have cited in your 

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book?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, I want to talk to you a little bit about one of the 

things that was on your date chart today, your timeline.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Okay? But first, will you agree with me that all life is 

sacred?

A. Yes.

Q. Whether it be a Palestinian or an Israeli?

A. Absolutely.

Q. And whether it be a soldier or civilian?

A. All life.

Q. And the taking of all life is wrong. 

A. Yes.

Q. I want to talk to you a little bit about the bombing that 

occurred on January 22nd, 1995. 

A. Is that the Beit Lid? 

Q. The Beit Lid. Right. And you said today that there may 

have been some soldiers in there. Do you remember saying 

that?

A. Yes, roughly. I don't remember the quote.

Q. Okay. 

A. But there were likely soldiers there, yes.

Q. You said there may have been some soldiers in there. 

A. Okay.

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Q. Well, according to the -- And you also said that there 

were 22 people I guess killed, which is 22 people and there 

may have been some soldiers. 

According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs -- That also 

keeps track of all the terror attacks. Right? 

A. Some of them, yes.

Q. And you have actually cited to like these kinds of 

documents in your book. 

A. I don't know if I cited to that document, and not every 

document that is on every website is equally of value, so I 

can't vouch for that one.

Q. According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which is 

like the State Department, I think you said, for Israel, on 

January 22nd of 1995 there were 21 people killed, but 20 of 

them were soldiers, and they actually give the names of the 

soldiers. So do you agree that is different than there may 

have been some soldiers in there?

A. It is and it isn't. I didn't claim to know the names of 

the people or have that in front of me. I also recall saying 

that Israeli soldiers frequently are at bus stops because they 

hitchhike home from around the country, so I wouldn't be 

surprised. 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I will pass the witness.

THE COURT: Thank you. 

Who is next? Ms. Cadeddu? 

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MS. CADEDDU: Me, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Cadeddu: 

Q. Hello, Doctor Levitt.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. I actually brought you a copy of your book and I have 

one, too. 

A. Thank you. 

MS. CADEDDU: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: Appreciate that.

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Doctor Levitt, before we start talking 

about your book, I just want to ask you a couple of questions 

and touch on some of the rhetoric that surrounded the Baruch 

Goldstein massacre. I am not interested in the specifics of 

it. I want to talk about some of the things that happened 

afterwards. 

A. Yes.

Q. After the Goldstein massacre, there were some Israelis, 

particularly settlers, who were happy about what had happened. 

Would you agree with that?

MR. JONAS: We object to this line of questioning. 

It is irrelevant. It is beyond the scope of direct.

THE COURT: Approach the bench a minute. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

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jury.)

MS. CADEDDU: What I am getting ready to talk to him 

about is the fact that some Palestinians and some Israelis 

have strong feelings about people on the other side, and that 

they expressed those feelings in skits and songs. There were 

skits and songs performed and performed every year at the 

anniversary of this massacre by Israeli settlers. 

My point is some people engage in violent acts. Most 

engage in political expression, which is exactly what my 

client did in this case. So I am talking about people's 

reactions, but not every person who is unhappy about a 

particular event expresses that in a violent way. Most do it 

in terms of speech, political expression. So that is what I 

am talking about here. I am not interested in talking about 

the -- 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he testified on direct as 

part of his dissertation about this particular incident. I 

mean -- 

THE COURT: The incident, yeah.

MR. JONAS: We didn't object when she raised it, 

when Ms. Hollander went into it, because we know Holy Land 

claims to have supported some of the victims and we assume 

that is going to be an issue raised later in the trial. But 

to get into how other people reacted to the accident to show 

the state of mind of the Defendant -- I mean, if the Defendant 

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wants to get his state of mind out there, he can get on the 

stand and testify about it. How people reacted to an 

unrelated incident is irrelevant. 

MS. CADEDDU: His line of questioning was explored 

in the first trial extensively, and it is an issue for my 

client because he is here because of songs and skits. I have 

talked about songs and skits, and that is what I am talking 

about with this gentleman. 

THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I will overrule the 

objection and let you get into that. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Doctor Levitt, after the massacre, 

there were some people who were happy about it and they 

expressed their feelings about it by writing a pamphlet. Is 

that correct?

A. Correct. A very small group who wrote a pamphlet 

supporting this terrorist attack.

Q. Absolutely. And so they wrote this pamphlet, and the 

pamphlet was called Baruch the Hero. Is that right?

A. Right. It was a play on words.

Q. Because Baruch -- 

A. Baruch also means blessed. It was his name, and blessed 

is the hero or he is the hero.

Q. So the book actually had two meanings. You are talking 

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about this play on words. And that play on words is a 

function of the fact that it was -- that Baruch is both a name 

and a word that has another meaning in Hebrew. 

A. Right.

Q. So the book was called Baruch the Hero, or the play on 

words was blessed is the hero?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, the folks who wrote that book, they obviously didn't 

like Palestinians a whole lot. Would you agree with that?

A. Yeah.

Q. And they expressed those feelings by writing the book. 

A. That is right.

Q. They also expressed those feelings by returning to the 

site where he was buried each year for a few years and 

engaging in skits. Isn't that right?

A. Yes, until they were banned.

Q. And so each year, for however many years -- And you are 

talking about the organization was banned. Kahane Chai and --

A. That is true, too. I am talking about the fact that this 

group, which was maybe a dozen people, was banned from 

returning to the site and performing this disgusting ritual.

Q. Okay. So Israel restricted the exercise of their 

expression at the grave site after a certain number of years. 

Would you agree with that?

A. Yeah.

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Q. Okay. But initially at least, these people went to the 

grave site and would perform a skit. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. And they would dress up like Doctor Goldstein and like 

some of the people who were praying, and would reenact this 

act. Is that right?

A. I don't remember the details of it, although I think it 

is in the dissertation.

Q. I believe it is. 

A. That they had this ceremony.

Q. Okay. And again, I mean, that expression of those 

feelings is obviously not pretty and not politically correct. 

Would you agree with that?

A. Yes.

Q. And the people who did that were, as you have said, I 

think a small minority of the people in Israel. Would you 

agree with that?

A. A tiny fraction of a minority.

Q. But there are certainly people in Israel who dislike 

Palestinians and who have feelings that they don't want the 

Palestinians there. Would you agree?

A. There are some, yes. There are, frankly, not a lot, 

but --

Q. And they express those feelings in the public forum. Is 

that right?

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A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And Palestinians do the same thing. You are aware 

that they also have traditional Palestinian music in which 

they express their feelings about Israelis. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. And they also express their feelings, sometimes 

generally, about Jews rather than just limiting it to 

Israelis. Is that correct?

A. It is a little nastier still, but yes.

Q. And what they are expressing is their anger in those 

songs and their feelings. 

A. Look, I am not a psychologist. I don't know if I am 

really qualified to answer these questions. It all depends on 

the skit. If they are expressing anger about the political 

situation, or if they are expressing support for suicide 

bombing, but yes, people do these not pleasant skits and 

things.

Q. Right. And here in this country we have the right to 

express our feelings and our beliefs. Is that right?

A. We do.

Q. Okay. I would like to talk to you now about your 

methodology, and here we are going to need your book, so if 

you would get it ready for me.

You testified yesterday a little bit about the 

methodology that you used to draw your conclusions, and I 

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assume that the methodology that you have used to draw your 

conclusions for this case is similar to the methodology you 

used in preparing your book. Would I be right?

A. Yeah. I mean, you know, the methodology in preparing 

this case is nowhere near what went into this book, but yes.

Q. Sure. But you don't use a different research method. 

A. No; exactly.

Q. I want to talk to you -- I think you talked a little bit 

about primary research, so I would like to talk to you first 

about your understanding of primary research. Okay?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. One part of primary research is looking at actual 

documents that relate to the event that you are looking at. 

Would you agree with that?

A. Yes.

Q. And another part of primary research, another way to 

conduct primary research, is by interviewing people who were 

actually at the event. Would you agree with that?

A. Yes.

Q. Or reading those interviews that were firsthand. 

A. Correct.

Q. So, for example, if we were to use a political event that 

we are all familiar with in this country, like the founding of 

the United States, the American revolution, an example of a 

primary source document if we were going to study that would 

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be, for example, the Declaration of Independence?

A. Correct.

Q. Or the Constitution?

A. Correct.

Q. The Federalist Papers perhaps, where the founders debated 

how the Constitution should look. 

A. Yes.

Q. Another type of primary source materials in my example 

could be letters, like, for example, letters written by Thomas 

Jefferson to someone about what the process was. Would you 

agree with that?

A. Correct, if they are authenticated.

Q. Sure. Let's assume they are authenticated. That would 

be a primary source document, because it would be something 

written by the person who was actually there. Would you 

agree?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you talked -- I think you have talked here today, 

and I think you have mentioned it in other cases that primary 

research is the gold standard of social science research. Is 

that right?

A. What I said specifically was that this combined 

methodology that I have used has been described by other 

courts in my particular case as the gold standard.

Q. I see. So let's talk about your research. Actually 

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before we do that, how you researched this book, let's talk 

about secondary sources, because we can't limit ourselves in 

the world to primary sources. We have to use secondary 

sources as well. 

In my example, for example, a secondary source about the 

American revolution could be a history written about the 

American revolution by someone. Is that right? 

A. Correct, unless it was a current history written by 

someone who was there, or even someone who lived at that time 

and knew those people, then that might be a more primary 

document.

Q. Okay. But let's say we are talking about someone writing 

history now, looking back and interpreting the events and 

deciding what to put into the book, making a selection about 

what was relevant. That is what distinguishes a secondary 

source document from a primary source document. Right?

A. Correct, like this.

Q. So I guess the reason it is called a secondary source 

document is because it is not quite as reliable as a primary 

source document, because someone has interjected their own 

interpretation or their limitation of what is included. Would 

you agree with me?

A. Yes.

Q. Another -- Well, actually I have talked about that. 

There is a selection bias, what researchers I think call it, 

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where you decide what you are going to put in and what you 

leave out sometimes can make a difference. So you have to 

keep that in mind as you are evaluating a secondary source. 

Is that right?

A. Correct. And you know, it depends if a source is focused 

on one particular issue and only includes documents or 

whatever on that issue, then that shouldn't surprise that 

there aren't other issues in there.

Q. Understand. So then I guess you would agree with me that 

you need to look critically at the sources of information that 

you are using to determine whether there is a bias. 

A. We are getting pretty general here. It is a case-by-case 

issue.

Q. All right. 

A. In general, the methodology is vetting sources, not 

relying on any one source.

Q. Let me take a step back. It is important when you are 

looking at any source to determine where it came from. 

A. Yes.

Q. Because someone's perspective matters when you are 

deciding whether to believe it. Is that correct?

A. It can.

Q. Okay. Now, you have testified -- As you said before, you 

have testified in other cases, and you have said that 

newspaper articles are secondary sources that are generally 

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less reliable than primary sources. Would you agree with 

that?

A. Yes.

Q. And just because something is reported in a newspaper 

doesn't make it right. Right?

A. Right.

Q. Now, let's take a look at your book. You have been 

talking about what you call economic jihad. I think that was 

the term you used yesterday. Is that right?

A. It is not what I call it. This is a term used by Hamas 

and others. But this is the term. Jihad bin mal, jihad by 

money, or economic jihad.

Q. So economic jihad is what we have been talking about for 

the last two days. 

A. We have been talking about a lot more than that, but that 

is part of what we have discussed.

Q. And this book that you have written, Hamas: Politics 

Charity and Terrorism in the Service of Jihad, you have laid 

out your theories about Hamas and terrorism funding in your 

book, and in much more detail than you have here. Is that 

right?

A. Yes.

Q. As you said before. 

Your book is divided up into chapters, as most books are, 

and what I would like you to do now is to turn to chapter 3 

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for me.

A. Do you have a page? 

Q. Well, I might. Let me see here. I wrote down all the 

other numbers, page numbers, but not that one. Page 52.

A. Fifty-two.

Q. Fifty-two is the first page. 

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Now, in this chapter you are talking about 

how, what you have called the Dawa, facilitates terrorism. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And as you told the jury, you took some time off from 

your regular job to research and write this book under a 

fellowship or two. Is that right?

A. I think we are confusing two things. Let me just 

clarify. This was written as part of my regular job. I 

didn't take time off to do that. This was what I did. The 

time off was for the Ph.D. and the other book.

Q. And the dissertation. Okay. I understand now. So this 

was actually written as part of your job responsibilities with 

the think tank that you work for?

A. Right.

Q. I would like to -- Let me see here, if you can give me 

just a second. Okay. I would like to explain to the jury a 

little bit how you have done this. Each chapter has -- 

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discusses a certain area. In this case we are talking about 

economic jihad, as we said. And what you have done is laid 

out some conclusions and some data on each of the pages, and 

then at the end of sections you have put end notes with 

sources. Is that right?

A. No. What I have laid out is data, analyzed the data, and 

then based on that made conclusions, and then there are 

footnotes. At the end of each paragraph, not at the end of 

the chapter, there is a footnote for the source material 

throughout that paragraph.

Q. Okay. I think maybe what we are doing is just -- we are 

getting social science research and lawyer research mixed up, 

because we lawyers when we put things, footnotes at the end of 

something, we called them end notes. So your notes are at the 

end of the chapter, or the end of the book identified by 

chapter. They are not down at the bottom of the page under a 

little line. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. So we are talking about your end notes. If 

you would turn and take a look at the end notes for chapter 3, 

the chapter we were just talking about, and those begin at 

page 263, I believe, right at the bottom of the page. Do you 

see that, Doctor Levitt?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, if you just flip through, you can see there 

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that for this particular economic jihad chapter you have I 

think a total of 58 end notes or footnotes, however you want 

to characterize them. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And some of those end notes cite just one source and some 

of them cite more than one source. Would you agree with me?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, let's go through generally the types of sources that 

you have looked at and then we may talk about some 

specifically. 

I would like you to take a look at the first footnote for 

chapter 3. The source for that footnote is actually you. 

Right? It is an article you wrote? 

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. Now, I assume that you can't be your own primary 

source document. Is that right, Doctor Levitt?

A. Well, you are misconstruing it. This is actually not a 

citation to a source. It is actually directing the reader to 

further reading on the subject, which is also done in end 

notes. So in the note to a paragraph that explains what this 

chapter is going to do, I have a footnote to another article I 

have written in a journal that goes further to that.

Q. Yes. I understand what you are saying. What I am trying 

to do here is just talk about the kinds of sources that you 

cite. And I am not trying to be silly. I am just saying that 

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is not a primary source document. 

A. Of course not, but it is actually not a source at all. 

It is further reading.

Q. Okay. So let's take a look, then, at end note No. 2 for 

that chapter. Do you see that one?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And that end note actually is a citation to an 

Associated Press article from 2005. 

A. Correct.

Q. To you see that, Doctor Levitt?

A. Yes.

Q. And an AP article, that is like a news wire service. Is 

that right?

A. Correct.

Q. So that would be something we would characterize as 

basically a newspaper article. It might have been picked up 

by the newspaper. It might have just gone out over the wires. 

Would you agree with me there?

A. Exactly.

Q. Now, that actually isn't the only newspaper article that 

is cited as a source in your chapter, and so what I would like 

you to do is turn to the citations for me and we are going to 

go through some of the newspaper articles that are cited 

there. 

A. You do notice what it is citing to the newspaper, though, 

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don't you?

Q. I beg your pardon?

A. You do notice what it is citing to the newspaper? 

Q. Doctor Levitt, I am talking about what the sources are 

right now. 

A. It is a quote. It is not taking the newspaper's 

analysis, but it is quoting an official who made a statement, 

which is very reliable.

Q. Okay. You are going to get a chance to explain all of 

that on redirect examination. Right now I am just trying to 

break out the categories of sources in your citations. 

So if we can go back to the footnote or end notes at the 

back of the chapter, I would like you to go with me through 

the end notes that we have listed here. Okay? Are you with 

me? 

All right. So No. 2 is a newspaper article. 

Note 5 actually has a number of different sources. One 

of those sources is a New York Times article and another is a 

Chicago Sun Times article. Do you see those, Doctor Levitt? 

A. Among many others, yes.

Q. Yes, yes; absolutely.

A. It gets to that selective process we were discussing 

earlier, doesn't it? 

Q. I beg your pardon?

A. That selective process you were discussing earlier where 

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someone only selects some things from something it is telling, 

there are many other citations here. You have selected those 

two.

Q. And I did say there were other sources cited in there, 

did I not?

A. I am just making it clear.

Q. Okay. So among a number of other sources are two 

newspaper articles in note No. 2. Is that right?

A. I think we are in No. 5.

Q. No. 5. I beg your pardon. Is that correct. Okay. New

York Times article and a Chicago Sun Times article. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. Now, speaking about other newspaper articles, note 

No. 6 there actually are three newspaper articles listed there 

among other sources. Do you see that there is one from the 

Washington Post, one from the New York Times, and one from 

Time Magazine.

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. Footnote No. 7 is actually two newspaper articles, 

and that is from, you will have to help me with the 

pronunciation, but Al-Sharq al-Awsat and the Jordan Times. Is 

that right?

A. Very good, yes.

Q. Footnote -- And there are no other citations in footnote 

No. 7. There is no selection bias. It is two newspaper 

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articles. Right?

A. That is all we get.

Q. Okay. So then we will skip down to note No. 15. In note 

No. 15 there is a newspaper article, and that is citing to the 

Washington Post again. Is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And that is a 2001 article. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. Note 21 is a French newspaper, I believe, and that again 

is among a number of different citations. 

A. I don't see it.

Q. No. 21 would be --

A. I see a journal, I see information from the Red Crescent.

Q. Agence Francias Presse, Saudi pilot on FBI list. Do you 

see that, sir, midway down?

A. In No. 21? 

Q. In No. 21. Agence Francias Presse would be like the AP?

A. Like the AP, yes.

Q. Okay. So we have got a 2001 article there. Do you see 

that, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Let's take a look at footnote No. 24, and 

there are a couple of sources there, actually three newspaper 

articles in that, and I believe -- let's see. They are -- it 

is the Palestine Times. Is that right? All three of those?

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A. I see Palestine Times. I see Al-Ahram Weekly, I see 

Jerusalem Post.

Q. And actually Jerusalem Post. The only one I wrote down 

was Palestine Times, but there are two others. So three 

newspaper articles. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. So let's skip down to note No. 40 and take a look at 

that. There is a newspaper article listed for note No. 40. 

That is the source there, and I believe that there is one 

other source. 

A. There are several sources. I think the one you are 

describing is The Arab Daily al-Hayat.

Q. Yes. That is the newspaper article we are talking about. 

Do you see that, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. And then footnote No. 44 is actually three newspaper 

articles. And again those are -- It is just three newspaper 

articles listed as the source for that. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. And those are from Maariv, which I guess is that an 

Israeli periodical. 

A. It is an Israeli newspaper.

Q. The Washington Post and the USA Today?

A. That is right.

Q. I would like to digress for one minute about the USA 

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Today. They illustrate some of the points we are talking 

about here. There was a reporter at the USA Today by the name 

of Jack Kelley. Are you familiar with him?

A. Yes.

Q. And he wrote a number of newspaper -- 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I object. This is getting 

far afield. I mean -- 

THE COURT: Relevance? 

MS. CADEDDU: The relevance, Your Honor, is the 

reliability of his conclusions and the sources for the 

conclusions, and the fact that newspaper articles are not 

reliable.

THE COURT: I think you are making your point 

without getting into specifics. I will sustain the objection.

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Okay. So let's see. Okay. Footnote 

No. 45, do you have that one for me, Doctor Levitt? 

A. Let's see. Yes. That is a long one.

Q. That is a long one. I think it has four sources, and the 

very last one I believe is a newspaper article. Do you see 

that? 

A. It is a magazine actually, but yes.

Q. Okay. No. 47, footnote No. 47?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Is also another newspaper article?

A. Again --

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Q. Do you see that?

A. We are cherry-picking here, but yes. There are lots of 

sources in No. 47. The one you are selecting is a newspaper 

article.

Q. We will be talking about some of the other sources in 

just a second, but right now I am just talking about newspaper 

articles. 

No. 51, again there are, as you said, several sources. 

One of those -- Actually there are two newspaper articles 

listed as sources in No. 51. One is a Chicago Tribune

article. Do you see that.

A. There are two.

Q. And then -- There are actually Chicago Tribune articles 

from 2004 and 2005. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, so we have talked about the newspaper 

articles. Will you take my word for it, I have counted them 

up, and out of 58 end notes, 13 include citations to newspaper 

articles, sometimes other sources?

A. Sounds right.

Q. I would like to talk about another category of the source 

material for chapter 3 in your book, and I think Mr. Westfall 

may have touched on this but I want to talk to you about it 

again. 

You mentioned something called the MFA. And you are 

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familiar with that. Right? 

A. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Q. Yes. So that is an Israeli government, arm I guess you 

would call it. It is an agency of the Israeli government. Is 

that right?

A. It is like our State Department.

Q. Okay. And as part of that agency's role, it puts out 

press releases. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And posts certain documents on its website. Is that 

right?

A. Excuse me. Yes.

Q. And those are going to be Israeli government documents. 

Is that correct?

A. Yes. Some of them are not, but they are -- Some are 

Israeli government documents. Sometimes they will put other 

things on there, too.

Q. They are posted by the Israeli government on an Israeli 

government website. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, there are also some other Israeli government 

documents that you have cited to in chapter 3, and what I 

would like to do now is go through the notes wherein you -- 

And now we are going to go back and talk about a different 

category. I told you we would go back and do that. So I want 

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you to go back for me to the beginning and we will talk about 

this category now of documents, Israeli government documents 

that are source citations in chapter 3.

Are you ready, Doctor Levitt?

A. I am ready.

Q. All right. So note No. 5, we talked about that. That 

had a couple of newspaper articles. That also contains a 

citation to an Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs article. 

Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. Then in note No. 6, in addition some newspaper articles 

we have another Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs article. 

Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. And note No. 8, a Ministry of Foreign Affairs article? 

A. That is right.

Q. And another cite. And we are going to come back to that 

one, too. Where was I? No. 9 is a citation only to a Israeli 

Ministry of Foreign Affairs article. Am I correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Note No. 15, the two sources listed in No. 15 are a 

newspaper article we already talked about and an Israeli 

Ministry of Foreign Affairs article. 

A. Correct.

Q. Note No. 16 is actually not a Ministry of Foreign Affairs 

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article, but it is your interview of an Israeli intelligence 

analyst. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. No. 17 is--I have to check this--this is also not 

from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but it is in fact an 

Israeli -- Let's see here. Actually I think I may have gotten 

that one mixed up with the next category, so we are going to 

leave that one for a moment.

Let's go to footnote No. 18. I think I might be in the 

wrong chapter. I am in the wrong chapter. No wonder. My 

pages moved. Chapter -- Here we go. Okay. No. 17. Let's go 

back to that. We have an Israeli government report as the 

subject, as the source citation for that --

A. Yes. This is a different category really.

Q. Yes.

A. It is an Israeli government report used in a U.S. court 

case.

Q. I understand. But the document, the core document we are 

talking about is an Israeli government report. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And I am distinguishing that from the Ministry of Foreign 

Affairs documents that we talked about a while ago. Is that 

correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. So then we go to footnote No. 19, and once again 

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that falls in the same category we were just talking about, 

that the core document there is an Israeli government report. 

Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

A. Citing the kind of letter you described earlier, by the 

way.

Q. Okay. I am just talking about the categories right now. 

A. But that is to the categories, isn't it? It is an 

Israeli source providing an original letter of the type that 

you described earlier might be considered even a primary 

source document.

Q. Okay. It is an Israeli government document. Is that 

right?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's talk about -- Let's see. I think we are on No. 20, 

and that I believe is in fact the same document as is cited in 

No. 19. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Footnote No. 32, we are going to skip a few, and that 

appears to be a statement given by an Israeli Defense Forces 

spokesperson. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. So that would be an army spokesperson, and that is an 

Israeli government document available on the Israeli army 

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website. 

A. Not an Israeli army website, but that is not the point. 

It is an army spokesperson's press release or statement.

Q. It is an Israeli army document available on the internet. 

Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Then we skip down to No. 42, and again we have a 

couple of other sources, but there is another Israeli Defense 

Forces army press release. 

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. And then No. 50 is an Israeli police document. 

A. Correct. A transcript of an interview in an Israeli 

police document.

Q. Okay. And then No. 51, I believe, is -- Let's see here. 

A. Also a police documents of transcriptions of police 

interviews.

Q. Okay. So those are Israeli police documents cited in No. 

50 and 51. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. I think also in No. 52, if you take a look at No. 52. Is 

that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So let's take a look now, moving down to end note 

No. 55, and end note No. 55 has, let's see here, an Israeli 

intelligence official's report, it would appear, and also your 

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email correspondence with a former Israeli intelligence 

official. 

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. And those two sources would both be Israeli 

government sources. Right?

A. One is a former government person who is an expert on the 

issue, and the other is an Israeli government report.

Q. Okay. So I stand corrected. So one of them is an 

interview with a former government official of the Israeli 

government. 

A. Yes.

Q. Is that right? 

No. 57, Doctor Levitt, and that, I believe, is also an 

Israeli police report. Is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And then I think the last one is No. 58, which is a set 

of -- it is an Israeli speech -- 

A. Text of a speech by a former prime minister.

Q. Okay. Of the government of Israel. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, you have talked both in your book and also I 

think here the last couple of days, in fact, I know you have, 

about something called Operation Defensive Shield. Do you 

remember that?

A. Yes.

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Q. And Operation Defensive Shield was an Israeli military 

army incursion into the West Bank that happened, at least 

began in 2002. Am I right about that?

A. Correct.

Q. And during that incursion the Israeli army And to be 

clear, we talked about the IDF. Some of us have used these 

terms for a long time, but the IDF is the Israeli Defense 

Force, which is also the Israeli army. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. So when we talk about the Israeli army or the IDF, or the 

Israeli Defense force, we are talking about the same group. 

A. All the same thing.

Q. So the army during Operation Defensive Shield went -- And 

Operation Defensive Shield with when the army went into 

offices of different Palestinian organizations and seized 

documents. Is that right?

A. That is part of what it was, yes.

Q. Part of what it was. Well, for your research purposes, 

the documents we are talking about, the Operation Defensive 

Shield documents, those are going to be documents that were 

seized in that incursion. Is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, the Israeli army kept an index of the documents that 

they seized in that incursion. Is that right?

A. Well, I am sure they kept many indices. I don't know if 

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there is an index of all the documents seized. If there is, I 

haven't seen one.

Q. Well, there is some sort of index. Let's take a look at 

page 286 of your book. 

A. There are indices.

Q. And that would be note No. 5. Then I see here, there is 

a citation, and then it says--and we are talking about note 

No. 5 at the bottom--"see index of documents seized by IDF 

forces in Operation Defensive Shield, April 2003, author's 

personal files." You are the author. Right? 

A. That is me.

Q. So you have an index of documents seized in the Israeli 

Defense Force incursion Operation Defensive Shield, in your 

personal files. 

A. I do.

Q. And we have asked you for that. Right?

THE COURT: Counsel, discovery is not an issue 

before the jury. Discovery is not an issue before the jury. 

MS. CADEDDU: Okay. All right. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) is that list something that was 

received from the United States -- from the Israeli 

government?

A. Yes.

Q. It was received from the army?

A. No.

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Q. It was provided to you by an Israeli government official. 

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to your sources, and I would 

like to talk again about -- I would like to talk about another 

category -- Actually, I have a question for you about one 

source that I would like you to take a look at. And I should 

have written down the footnote. It is again from chapter 3, 

and it is something called cripdom www.cripdom (phonetic). 

Are you recollecting that?

A. Not off the cuff, no.

Q. Okay. You know what? We will come back to that because 

I will have to look for that. The citation I wrote down, like 

I said, all the footnotes and the page numbers, but that one 

somehow managed to escape me.

Okay. So back to our 58 end notes for chapter 3.

A. Okay.

Q. There are -- There is an organization that has possession 

of a number of the documents that were seized in the Operation 

Defensive Shield incursion by the IDF, and that organization 

is known, was known at least, as the Center for Special 

Studies. Is that correct?

A. That is right, yes.

Q. And do you understand that that organization has since 

changed its name to the Israel Intelligence, Heritage and 

Commemoration Center? Is that something you are familiar 

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with?

A. I think that that is something that is affiliated with 

it. I think it is actually a different name.

Q. Okay. But we are all in agreement that the Center for 

Special Studies maintains a cache of these Operation Defensive 

Shield documents. Is that right?

A. At least I know they used to, and they still have some on 

their website. I don't know if they are still in possession 

of them, the originals.

Q. In addition to maintaining those documents, this 

organization also issues something called special information 

bulletins. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And those special information -- Let me stop there for 

one second. The Center for Special Studies is an organization 

that it is in Israel. It is an Israeli organization. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. It is located in Israel?

A. Yes.

Q. And where is it located exactly?

A. Outside Tel Aviv.

Q. Okay. It has a website.

A. Yes.

Q. And on that website it identifies itself as an NGO. Is 

that correct?

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A. I actually don't know, but it could be. I mean -- 

Q. NGO means, as we have talked about before, a 

non-governmental organization. 

A. Yes. There are NGOs that are completely independent. 

There are NGOs that have affiliations with government. I 

don't know if they are an NGO or not.

Q. And in fact in previous testimony in another matter, you 

testified that in your opinion the Center for Special Studies 

is affiliated with the Israeli government. Isn't that right?

A. Yes. It has to have some affiliation to have been given, 

for lack of a better word, custody of some of these documents.

Q. Okay. Now, and the Center for Special Studies, are you 

aware that they say that they were established in memory of 

the fallen of the Israeli intelligence community?

A. I am; not surprising for an Israeli institution.

Q. And that institution is headed by someone by the name of 

Doctor Reuven Erlich. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. Now, also according to the website, The Center, or 

the Center for Special Studies, CSS has -- it claims to boast 

a staff of experts. Is that right?

A. I am not really that familiar with their website, at 

least since I have written the book.

Q. I understand. I am sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. 

Are you done? 

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But you are familiar with the special information 

bulletins. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Because you have cited to a number of them in your book. 

A. Primarily -- Well, yes and no. The special bulletins 

tend to have their bulletin, and then actual copies of seized 

documents, primary documents, and I cite to the primary 

documents. But they are included or distributed as part of 

these special bulletins.

Q. Well, there is an analysis. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. The Center for Special -- I keep trying to remember what 

the name is, I am losing track. The Center for Special 

Studies writes up these bulletins that are analyses. Right?

A. Correct. And an author can use that analysis or not and 

can use the primary source documents or not.

Q. Right. And the primary source documents are attached or 

they are appendices to the analyses. Right.

A. That is right.

Q. And those primary source documents, what we are talking 

about is the Operation Defensive Shield -- some Operation 

Defensive Shield documents. Right?

A. Correct. Documents that were seized from various types 

of Palestinian government or charity committee offices by the 

army in this operation.

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Q. Yes. And so when the Center for Special Studies drafts 

up one of those special information bulletins, they select 

parts of the documents or individual documents that are going 

to go into the appendix that goes to that particular analysis. 

Right?

A. Correct. Not parts of documents. They --

Q. They select part of the -- They don't put the whole cache 

of documents. It is probably rooms full. Right?

A. Right.

Q. They pick and choose particular documents that they are 

going to attach as appendices to the analysis. Correct? 

A. The documents that apply to the analysis that they are 

engaged in.

Q. Yes. So the Center for Special Studies takes these 

documents that it believes are relevant to its analysis by its 

analysts and attaches them, the ones that it believes are 

relevant, to the report. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And when it does that, the Center for Special Studies, it 

also puts in a translation of what it believes those documents 

that are attached say. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Because some of them are in -- Probably most of them are 

in Arabic?

A. Almost all.

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Q. Some may be in Hebrew?

A. I don't recall any in Hebrew, actually. 

Q. So mostly in Arabic. They are going to be translated by 

the Center for Special Studies. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. Now, the special information bulletins that the 

Center for Special Studies puts out don't have author names on 

them. Right?

A. I am sorry. Don't have? 

Q. They are not there is no author identified on them. 

Correct?

A. I don't think so. Some of them actually have Doctor 

Erlich's name on them.

Q. Okay. But when the Center for Special Studies talks 

about its work and when it does its work, it identifies -- It 

presumably, like any other think tank, it is going to have an 

analyst who works on a particular report. Right? I assume -- 

Can we both agree that Doctor Erlich is probably not writing 

all these reports?

A. I honestly don't know. When I interacted with them in 

the process of researching this book, there certainly were not 

30 people there. It primarily was just him.

Q. We are kind of getting off of the subject matter I want 

to talk about here. There isn't -- the reports don't 

identify -- Let me start again. The Center says it has a team 

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of analysts. Right?

A. So you tell me.

Q. And the reports that the Center puts out don't name a 

particular analyst who has written that particular report. 

Right?

A. Except for those that do.

Q. Except when it lists Doctor Erlich on the report by 

himself. 

A. Correct.

Q. Can you think of one of those that you have looked at, do 

you recall one that has his name on them?

A. I don't recall any of them right now. This book was 

written in 2006.

Q. All right. So let's take a look and see where in your 

footnotes to chapter 3 you have cited to special information 

bulletins. And as you have said, sometimes you cite to the 

information bulletins, sometimes you cite to the source 

document, but those are going to be the ones that are 

translated by the Center for Special Studies and attached to 

that report. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. So let's go back to the beginning, which would be 

page 263, and the first footnote that cites to a special 

information bulletin would be footnote No. 10. Is that 

correct?

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A. Not on 263. On 265, footnote No. 10, yes.

Q. And there is just one citation for a number -- one source 

for citation No. 10. Is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. And so then let's take a look at No. 12. That 

actually cites to two special information bulletins from the 

Center for Special Studies. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. Footnote No. 13 cites to one special information 

bulletin. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. And footnote No. 14 cites only to a special information 

bulletin from the Center for Special Studies. Is that 

correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Footnote No. 18 cites also only to a Center for Special 

Studies special information bulletin. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Footnote No. 22 cites to a special information bulletin 

from the Center for Special Studies only. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Footnote No. 23 is another special information bulletin 

from the Center for Special Studies. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. No. 27 has -- One of the two sources is the Center for 

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Special Studies special information bulletin. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. No. 34? 

A. Correct.

Q. That is a footnote that cites only to a special 

information bulletin from the Center for Special Studies. 

A. Yes.

Q. Footnote No. 35, center for Special Studies special 

information bulletin. That is the only source. 

A. Not the only source, but it is one of the sources.

Q. Maybe I wrote it down wrong. All right. One of the 

sources is a special information bulletin from the Center for 

Special Studies.

Footnote -- Now I have lost my place. Was that No. 34? 

A. We were up to No. 35.

Q. Let's go down to No. 40. No. 40 is one of those that has 

a newspaper article and a Center for Special Studies special 

information bulletin. 

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. And then No. 54. And No. 54 has as its only 

source the Israel Center for Special Studies special 

information bulletin. Is that right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. So in this chapter, and again you can check if you 

would like, but I have actually looked, there are exactly two 

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Palestinian sources cited. I would like you to turn back to 

note No. 13 for me. Do you have it, sir?

A. Almost. All right.

Q. Note No. 13, page 265. 

A. Okay.

Q. Okay. And that document that you cite, and it is one -- 

You cite that one and then cite a Center for Special Studies 

special information bulletin, but that Palestinian document 

would be an analysis of the average daily wages of 

Palestinians that you got from the Palestinian Central Bureau 

of Statistics. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Then the other Palestinian document would be in 

footnote No. 55, and that is found on page 270. Are you 

there, sir?

A. No. 55.

Q. Are you there?

A. I am waiting for you.

Q. Sorry about that. And that citation to a Palestinian 

source in footnote No. 55 is a Palestinian intelligence 

report. Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. 

A. Those are not the only two.

Q. Well, those are the only two in chapter 3. 

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A. Incorrect.

Q. Okay. Have you found another one for me?

A. Well, almost every citation you cited to the Center for 

Special Studies cites to a Palestinian report or a Palestinian 

intelligence report, and the fact that it is made public by 

the Israelis, notwithstanding, is only relevant in terms of --

Q. Okay. I am just going to stop you right there. 

A. I see that.

Q. Okay. The Center -- Let's talk again for the Center for 

Special Studies, just so we all understand what it is. The 

Center for Special Studies is in Israel. Right?

A. Still.

Q. It is a -- They say they are a non-governmental 

organization. Right?

A. Still.

Q. You say that they have a connection to the Israeli 

government, otherwise they wouldn't have all those documents 

from the Operation Defensive Shield incursion. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. The Center for Special Studies puts out special 

information bulletins that are analyses by their analysts. 

Right?

A. And that have primary source Palestinian documents.

Q. We are getting there. Just wait for me. The special 

information bulletins are analyses by Center for Special 

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Studies analysts. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And then there are appendices to those analyses. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And those appendices include documents that the Center 

for Special Studies analysts pick out of the documents seized 

in Operation Defensive Shield. Right?

A. Presumably, yes.

Q. Okay. That they believe are relevant to their analyses. 

Right?

A. To the issue that they are analyzing, yes.

Q. Right. And then the Center for Special Studies has them 

translated from Arabic. Correct?

A. And provides them in English and the original Arabic.

Q. Okay. And so those documents that are picked out as 

relevant are included with the analyst's report. Is that 

correct?

A. They are separate, as you said earlier. They are 

annexes, but they are put out together.

Q. I am trying to ask it very specifically. Those documents 

in the appendices are picked by the analyst at the Center for 

Special Studies. 

A. I don't know who picks them, but they are supporting 

documents to the analysis in their reports.

Q. They are selected to go with the analyses by the Center 

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for Special Studies analysts. Right?

A. Presumably. Again, neither you nor I are in there seeing 

how they are doing this.

Q. We have no idea. Right? How they do it?

A. Presumably they are picking out the documents that are 

relevant to the analysis at hand.

Q. Well, we would certainly hope so. Right? 

Now, we have gone through the book, I think. You talked 

about and -- And we could go through every single chapter, but 

I am not going to do that, and that was the one that was on 

the Hamas Dawa, so I thought that was probably the one that we 

needed to talk about. 

You have discussed how your book was peer reviewed before 

publication. Right? 

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. And in addition being peer reviewed before 

publication, your book is really a resource, a secondary 

source, as you mentioned. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. For other researchers in this area. 

A. I hope so.

Q. Would you agree with me?

A. I would hope so.

Q. And one of the things that happens when you write a work 

such as yours is that people even after publication will 

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review that work. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

A. Though that is not peer review.

Q. I understand. Peer review happens before publication. 

Right?

A. Yes, by senior academics who know something about the 

issue at hand.

Q. Okay. And then post publication other academics, 

researchers, will review your work. Right?

A. Sometimes. Usually it is journalists, but --

Q. Sometimes it is other academics. And when they do, what 

they are doing is trying to review your work to determine 

whether they believe that other academics should rely on it. 

Right?

A. Sometimes. More often it is, you know, in a book review 

to recommend whether or not it is something worth reading.

Q. Okay. Well, a journalist might recommend whether it is 

something worth reading. You would expect another academic to 

be talking about whether your methodology is appropriate and 

whether it should be used as a secondary source document. 

Would you agree?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, in your case your book was reviewed post 

publication by a senior research scholar at the Center for 

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Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And her name is Sarah Roy. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. And Ms. Roy published a review of your book, and your 

methodology particularly, in the Middle East Policy Council

Journal. Is that right?

A. After it was rejected from another journal it was 

published there on the web as opposed to in the journal.

Q. It was published -- Let me ask it again. It was 

published in the Middle East Policy Council Journal. Right?

A. Okay.

Q. Her review was published in the Middle East Policy 

Council Journal. Right?

A. I know it was published on their website. I don't know 

if it was published elsewhere.

Q. Okay. And in that review she criticizes your research 

methodology and says that your evidence "...is more often than 

not based on assumption, extrapolation, and generalization." 

Is that right?

A. That is right. And in part because of her baseless 

findings, it was rejected from the first journal she applied 

to.

Q. Doctor Levitt, stay with me here. Okay? A senior 

researcher for Harvard, Ms. Sarah Roy -- Senior research 

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scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies, Harvard 

University. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. That is who she is. 

A. Right.

Q. Right?

A. Still.

Q. And she reviewed your book for the Middle East Policy 

Council Journal. Right?

A. Their website.

Q. Okay. And in her review she says your research, your 

evidence is more often than not based on --

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, this is hearsay. I am going 

to object. She is reading something written by a document 

that is not in evidence. 

MS. CADEDDU: This goes to the reliability of his 

assumptions and conclusions. This is how researchers 

determine whether to rely on his book.

THE COURT: I understand that, but the objection is 

hearsay. 

MS. CADEDDU: Well, Your Honor, I don't believe it 

is hearsay. I am not -- I want -- It is not offered for the 

truth. It is offered for his how he addresses critiques of 

his work and whether his work is in fact -- whether he 

incorporates that, whether those critiques make other 

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researchers rely on his work. 

I don't believe it is hearsay, and I do believe that it 

is relevant to whether -- I mean, he is saying his work is the 

gold standard, and here we have other academics saying it is 

absolutely not the gold standard. I think it is impeachment. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, it is being offered for the 

truth. It is not being offered to question his methodology. 

It is being offered to get in a comment from another person 

who is not testifying in this courtroom. 

MS. CADEDDU: He has testified, Your Honor --

THE COURT: I know what he testified to. I don't 

need to be hearing a lot of argument that gets in a lot of 

what I am trying to decide what gets in or not. Okay? 

MS. CADEDDU: Okay. 

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and break for the day. 

We will come back in the morning at 9:00. 

Please recall the instructions we have discussed about 

not discussing the case with anyone and don't let anyone talk 

to you about the case. See you back in the morning. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Go ahead and have a seat. Be seated.

And Ms. Cadeddu, you are trying to get into what this 

other researcher stated about his book, her critique.

MS. CADEDDU: The reviewer's critique of his 

methodology.

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THE COURT: And the objection is hearsay?

MR. JONAS: Yes, sir. She is quoting from the 

review. 

THE COURT: And why is that not hearsay, you think? 

You are making a relevance argument. Why is that not hearsay? 

MS. CADEDDU: I would like Mr. Cline to help me out.

THE COURT: Maybe you can help me out, too.

MR. CLINE: I agree with what Ms. Cadeddu said. It 

is not being offered for its truth. First of all, it is not 

being offered at all. It is in the form of a question 

directed to Doctor Levitt basically -- 

THE COURT: But the question assumes that 

information was given and written, and she is going to ask him 

to affirm that that in fact was written.

MR. CLINE: I think what she is asking him to do is 

to comment upon the critique. I am sure he will strongly 

disagree with some aspect of it.

THE COURT: That is not where I am going. I am 

trying to understand why it is not hearsay.

MR. CLINE: Because it is not being offered for its 

truth. In other words, if Ms. Cadeddu were to get up, or 

let's say she had the review and wanted to place it into 

evidence as a critique that the jury should rely upon of what 

Doctor -- 

THE COURT: That is what she is doing. She is 

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asking the question instead of putting it in evidence, isn't 

she? 

MR. CLINE: I don't think so, because she is saying, 

"Doctor Levitt, here is a criticism that has been made of your 

work. Here it is. What is your response to the criticism." 

It is not coming into evidence. What is in evidence is his 

commentary on a critique directed by the reliability of his 

work. That is the evidence and the only evidence, and I think 

that is a perfectly appropriate thing. 

Here we have an expert, accepted as an expert. The 

Government has relied on him. We, of course, are challenging 

some aspects of his testimony. And I think that is a fair 

challenge to the reliability of his testimony. He will agree 

-- maybe he will agree with something, maybe he will disagree, 

but the evidence is what he says about a critique directed at 

his work. And I don't believe it is hearsay. I think it is 

offered for a non-hearsay purpose.

MR. WESTFALL: If I may add one thing. The thing to 

remember, and that wasn't really said, is that this book is 

his thesis. This book is basically what he testified over the 

last day and a half, so, you know, for an expert the way 

you -- It is impeaching an expert, which is a little bit 

slightly different than if you just read something to somebody 

off the street. But this is his expert opinion being 

impeached. 

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MS. CADEDDU: And what I am concerned about, Judge, 

is that Doctor Levitt said that his methodology is the gold 

standard, and so he leaves the jury with the impression 

that --

THE COURT: As I understand it, you are bringing in 

the witness to testify, and so the issue is hearsay. You are 

-- Those go to relevancy arguments that you are making. I am 

still trying to understand whether it is hearsay. If you are 

going to have the witness live here and she is going to give 

the same -- 

MS. CADEDDU: But he knows it is not the gold 

standard. He says it is the gold standard. Everybody doesn't 

say it is the gold standard. It is impeachment. 

MR. CLINE: Back to the hearsay point, and I 

understand -- I know it is a sticking point for you, counsel's 

questions are not evidence. And that is what the jury is 

instructed on, that we all assume that leading questions 

regularly include assertions that the witness then disagrees 

with. The question is never the evidence. It is the answer 

from the witness stand that is the evidence. 

Some of these critiques it is possible, I know hope 

springs eternal, it is possible Doctor Levitt will agree with 

these. Most he will dismiss. I think the jury is entitled to 

see that.

THE COURT: That may be, but that still gets back to 

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the relevancy issue. I am still trying to get deal with the 

hearsay.

MR. CLINE: I am sorry. I got a little off point 

here. My point is the substance of a critique is not being 

offered into evidence at all, to the extent it comes into 

evidence as a part of his response to it. It is not being 

offered for its truth. It is being offered as a predicate for 

his response to a critique.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Jonas, one last thought?

MR. JONAS: Let's face facts. The way the 

questioning is going, it is not, "Doctor Levitt, what is your 

reaction to this?" He tried to give a reaction and Ms. 

Cadeddu cut him off. It is going to be her reading a quote 

and saying, "Isn't it a fact this woman said this about you?" 

And once he says, "Yes, it is a fact she said this," then it 

becomes adopted by him and it is no longer hearsay, and that 

is the problem with it. 

Bring Sarah Roy in, let's her get on the stand and 

criticize him, and then we can cross examine her.

MR. CLINE: I know you said it was the last, but if 

the form of the question is the way Mr. Jonas said, "Isn't it 

a fact that she said this," that might be a subject of a 

hearsay objection. What I understood Ms. Cadeddu to be saying 

is, "What do you say about this critique?" And I think in 

that form I think the questioning, it is -- to the extent the 

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critique is coming in at all, it is for a non-hearsay purpose.

THE COURT: Let me give that some thought. I will 

give you a ruling in the morning. 

Anything else we need to address?

MR. JONAS: One thing, your Honor. The parties have 

signed this stipulation regarding a wide volume of material, 

and I would like to make it a court exhibit.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. JONAS: I don't have a court sticker, if I could 

just bring it up.

THE COURT: That is fine.

MS. HOLLANDER: So we keep track of them, this is 

the one thing we didn't keep track of very well, this will be 

Court Exhibit No. 1? Is that what it will be.

MR. JONAS: That is fine.

MS. HOLLANDER: There is not any other -- Is it a 

No. 1 or an A? 

THE COURT: No. 1. It doesn't matter what you want 

to call it. It is your exhibit.

MS. HOLLANDER: Court Exhibit No. 1.

THE COURT: All right. Court Exhibit No. 1, then, a 

stipulation. 

MR. JACKS: May I respond to the last thing Mr. 

Cline said? The way that Mr. Cline phrased it, "What do you 

think about this?" If she changed the question to, "What do 

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you think about this critique," that assumes facts not in 

evidence because the critique is not in evidence. So that 

doesn't fix the problem either. 

THE COURT: Okay. All right. 

MR. CLINE: Leading questions assume facts in 

evidence all the time. That is what a leading question is, 

and that is why you instruct the jury -- 

THE COURT: But it is different when you are 

attributing a quote to somebody than, "Isn't it true that you 

saw this," or, "Isn't it true that X happened?" That is 

different than, "Isn't it true that so and so said such and 

such?" which Is really where we are going here. She is asking 

him about a quote, about a statement attributed to another 

person. That is different than a lot of the leading 

questions. 

A lot of leading questions, if you are trying to get into 

hearsay, I would suspect would be sustained, leading or not. 

I mean, because you are on cross examination doesn't make 

hearsay admissible. It has to be admissible on its own basis. 

I am trying to understand what the basis is. 

I will give it some thought. I understand the arguments, 

and just because you are on cross and leading that is not an 

exception to the hearsay rule.

MR. CLINE: I agree with that.

THE COURT: The objection is hearsay, so that is 

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what we have to deal with. 

MR. CLINE: I just meant to say -- 

THE COURT: I don't have a problem with relevancy. 

I understand it is relevant and goes to impeachment, but we 

have a hearsay objection, and I am not quite understanding how 

it gets around it. But I will give you a ruling in the 

morning. 

We will be in recess 9:00 in the morning.

(End of Day.)

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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts 10/18/2008

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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